From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu May 1 00:34:49 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 00:34:49 -0000 Subject: Pondering Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > If she is polyjuicing, why would she transform into a completely > different person when who she is is already know in the magical > community. That is, if she is not the person that is known in the > wizard world as Mrs. Figg then who is she? Why would this mystery > person take on the looks and persona of a real person instead of > making up a fake person. If she is young, then she would probably use > an aging potion or if she simple wanted to look different, then > tranfiguration instead of polyjuice. > I hadn't thought about the aging potion, but I think it's a good idea. JKR tends to introduce early concepts that she plans to use later. She introduced the aging potion, as we know, in GoF and went into detail about how much the twins needed to take. This kind of detail is usually a hint that she will use the concept again later. Has anyone plotted out what books major plot tricks were used? Polyjuice Potion: CoS, GoF Animagus: PoA, GoF etc... > So personally, I don't believe in the fair young maiden transformed > into the mad old lady, regardless of what method is used. As far as > I'm concerned Harry saw her as a Mad Old Lady because she was a witch, > and that made her seem very eccentric to Harry. So instead of a mad > old lady, she is now a mad old witch. > I'm not sure about this. Harry would have thought her a mad old lady because she was *acting* like one. What else do you expect from the perspective of an 11 year old boy? I wonder if he would still hold that opinion given his latest experiences. > > So who is she? Well it's only a theory and a far fetched one at that, > but why couldn't she be Sirius Black's maternal grandmother (or great > aunt or whatever). That fills all the requirements that people seem to > be struggling to create. It give her a personal stake in and concern > for Harry's life. She's like family but doesn't actually qualify as > family. > This I don't agree with. If she was Sirius's maternal grandmother and had a connection to Sirius, than I don't believe DD would have put her in charge of watching over Harry. We have no indication that DD thought Sirius innocent all the time he was at Azkaban. I think it more likely that she would be some distant potter relation (by marriage or something) or Harry's godmother. On the other hand, I still love your scenario of Harry finding Sirius and Lupin at Mrs. Figg's house. Kristen From kristen at sanderson-web.com Thu May 1 00:41:24 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 00:41:24 -0000 Subject: Dementors question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56657 Something about the dementors has been really bothering me. In LV's graveyard speech, he talked about breaking people out of Azkaban along with bringing in the dementors themselves. What good would the Lestranges be to LV after spending all this time in Azkaban? Hence, my questions. Do you all think the Death Eaters were allowed to keep their sanity and their wits? This doesn't seem the case from the account of Crouch Jr. there. On the other hand, is it possible for dementors to take the life force they have sucked in and pass it on to someone else or restore it to the original person? Or do you think that's a little too much B Horror Movie-esque (Night of the Living Dead)? I just can't decide what I think. I don't have a good feeling about it though. Kristen From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu May 1 00:53:11 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:53:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle's family (was Re: New with a question!) References: Message-ID: <00be01c30f7c$0a8f7140$369ecdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 56658 The Other Mrs. Weasley wrote: > apparent reason. Since Tom Riddle was an only child, who > becomes "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", how is it that as Voldemort he > is able to kill James and Lily Potter? Did he not actually die? Well, I think others have cleared that up, It was Riddle's muggle father and grandparents killed, not Voldemort/Riddle. But that point aside, do we really know that Riddle was an only child? First of all, we don't even know how he knows what he does about his mother. She died when he was born. It is feasibly possible that she had another child with a different father before she had Tom Riddle. An older half brother/sister could have been sent to a separate muggle orphanage, or to a relative who could only take in one child, etc. The child would have a different last name than Riddle, making it impossible for Tom Riddle to find without someone helping him. Would he have wanted to wipe them out too? For not taking him in? So many questions, so few answers. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu May 1 01:02:38 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:02:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pondering Arabella Figg References: <3EB008E9.46D0EB67@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: <00c201c30f7d$5cdcf8e0$369ecdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 56659 Pat wrote: > I don't know about Secret Keeper, but I think she [Arabella Figg] is his > magical guardian. Perhaps she's even related to him on the Potter side. Part > of the "ancient magic" that protects him while he's with his relatives? > He would be protected at her house, too. And is Harry protected while The problem there is that she can't be very much related to Harry (unless she's an in-law and therefore no blood relation) because Dumbledore said the Dursleys were "the only family he has left now." I do, however, think she was put there to keep an eye on Harry. Not to meddle in what the Dursleys decided to do with him, or else surely she'd have noticed the child had no clothes that fit him, broken glasses, etc. As for the cabbage smell, I think it was a clue. Since it's in SS/PS that Harry notes the apothecary smells like bad eggs and *cabbage*. I don't think Mrs. Figg's a polyjuiced anybody. That's going a bit overboard on the polyjuicing. > he's at school because Dudley is there??? How ironic would THAT be! Which would be interesting, considering the first time he and Dudley would have been apart was when they turned eleven and started back to school at separate schools. But of course, Harry's off to Hogwarts instead! > Why did the Dursleys trust Mrs. Figg, and no one else, to watch Harry? > This is something that's puzzled me for a long time. Surely they could > have hired a local teen-ager to watch Harry when they went to the zoo. Well, in PS/SS Vernon does mention calling Petunia's friend Yvonne, but she's out of town. Uncle Vernon even goes so far as to suggest calling Marge. But of course, Petunia reminds him that she hates the boy. Basically it looks like Mrs. Figg's the only one who'll put up with him. Not that he ever did anything (or meant to!). > Something else that's bothered me for a long time! Why is Harry more > obsessed with his father than his mother? Rather Star Wars-ish I think it's just because he's a little boy. Boys always have that stage where they want to be just like their dad. And Harry, having never even seen a picture of him until he was eleven, is coming to that stage a bit late in life. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Thu May 1 01:04:49 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 01:04:49 -0000 Subject: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: <3EB0DA28.13177.32F104C@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56660 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > I remember having many teachers like Snape at school, and I thank God every day I did. Yes, I had to endure their cutting remarks, and sometimes that hurt. But they taught me to think in ways that other teachers never had. They ignited a fire of learning in me that burns brightly. I didn't come out of their classes afraid, I came out of them enraged and wanting to show them what I could do.> This is exactly where I think Snape goes wrong and where I can understand why so many people here think Snape should be fired. Snape picks on students because he can. He may not like being a teacher, but he does enjoy teaching and he loves the authority he has in the classroom. He likes it so much that he confuses insulting and intimidating students with teaching. Shaun, you may have been motivated by Snape-like teachers, but most students are not. The teachers in my past who picked on me made me feel terrible. I never wanted to participate in their classes and now, as a teacher, I can't tell you how many times my students have approached me to complain about another teacher treating them unfairly. I am shocked to hear of some of the things teachers have actually said to students. It makes me understand why so many NYC kids don't want to stay in school. It is not Snape's job to "toughen up" his students. It is his job to teach them how to brew successful potions. It is also his job to know how to work with his students, to assess their skills and to help them strengthen their weaknesses while encouraging them to use their strengths - positively, not negatively. He knew he was terrifying Neville and to me, that is quite an abuse of his position. He also knew, I am sure, that insulting Hermione would be the ultimate in nasty actions, as all 14 year old girls are extremely self-conscious. He knew exactly how to hit her where it hurts. Teachers should not be bullies. It is not their job to use methods of intimidation to get results from students. I get some great work from my students because I encourage them by smiling and by complimenting them (I'm no pushover, though!), not by scowling and scaring the hell out of them. Snape can be a strict teacher who earns the respect of his students by respecting them. Right now, I see no evidence that he respects them, and I'm not sure what lesson there is in that. --jenny from ravenclaw, whose students could kick Snape's ass if they took his wand away ********************* From dicentra at xmission.com Thu May 1 01:42:57 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 01:42:57 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Return of Yahoomort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56661 As you might have noticed, our dear friend Yahoomort has been messing with selected posts for his own twisted purposes these past few days. Some posts take hours to show up; others show up in duplicate or triplicate. We don't know for how much longer this will continue. In the meantime, please be patient about seeing your posts appear on the list. For those of you still on pending status, we have had problems with messages showing up several hours late in the pending queue and approved messages not showing up until hours later. If you post a message and it doesn't show up within a reasonable period, you can be sure that Yahoomort is toying with it. Don't worry, though. He doesn't seem to be eating many of the messages outright, though messages have been known to vanish and turn up months later in the Sahara Desert. :D --Dicey Elf for the List Administration Team From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu May 1 01:40:12 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:40:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: fairness of Quiddich (WAS: Is the anything that bothers you about HP ...) References: Message-ID: <004e01c30f82$9c4a8380$9008570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 56662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > So, I'm not sure that I agree that it's all about the brooms and > equipment - skill definitely has something to do with it. > > -Tom Bill wrote: I would say that it's a combination of skill, brooms, and luck. We want to compare the skill. We can do nothing about the luck. But we CAN do something about the brooms. ----Me---- Why? Where in life does it say that everything has to be exactly equal and fair? In many things, it is the person with the most money (whether their own or a sponsor's) that has the best. Taking the good brooms away from those that have them and forcing them to take inferior ones would be an injustice to every one. I wouldn't call it equality, I would call it communism. Someone else had compared quidditch to equestian competitions, which I found interesting. I don't know about televised competitions in other countries, but I know when I watch the ones here (jumping events) they often talk about how and when a rider acquired a horse, how much he spent on it, how many compititions it had already fared well in, and the other horses in the riders string. Please don't try to tell me that money doesn't enter into it. A good horse is very expensive. But, skill enters the equation as well. It takes a good rider to get the best out of the horse. Quidditch is like many other things in life: we learn to work with what we have. ~Cathy~ From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu May 1 01:45:19 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:45:19 -0500 Subject: Dementors question References: Message-ID: <006501c30f83$579634e0$9008570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 56663 ----- Original Message ----- From: GKJPO Something about the dementors has been really bothering me. In LV's graveyard speech, he talked about breaking people out of Azkaban along with bringing in the dementors themselves. What good would the Lestranges be to LV after spending all this time in Azkaban? Hence, my questions. Do you all think the Death Eaters were allowed to keep their sanity and their wits? ----Me---- I think it relates to what Sirius said - that he stayed sane because he knew he was innocent. Since that wasn't a happy thought, they couldn't take it away from him. If the LeStranges aren't insane, I think it is because of something similar - except that their thoughts are probably pure evil, rather than thoughts of innocence. They've probably been planning all the things they want to do to wreck havoc when they get out. ~Cathy~ From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 1 00:28:48 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 00:28:48 -0000 Subject: Godparents (Was: Pondering Arabella Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56665 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "splatt62" wrote: > > In Britain, traditon is 2 godmothers and 1 godfather per girl and 2 > godfathers and 1 godmother per boy. Not in my case. I've only got one of each, and I'd never heard of this tradition before. Doesn't it vary according to which particular denomination floats your boat? Anyway, all this talk about godparents has stirred up something that I half registered and buried after reading PoA. That Harry has *god*parents surely means (in Muggle tradition, obviously), that he was baptised into the Christian religion at some point. Whether or not the WW recognises a spiritual dimension, there has been no mention made in any of the books of any form of organised religion generally adhered to. Two possibilities suggest themselves - 1.) JKR is using the term generically to suggest a particularly close friend of the parent to whom the position is offered symbolically (in which case why was Sirius able to wield the word so authoritatively on Harry's Hogsmeade permission form?). 2.)Harry was christened into a Muggle religion due to family pressures on his mother's side...It just doesn't seem likely that Lily, after graduating from Hogwarts and becoming a part of the WW, would still maintain the traditions of a Muggle religion which doesn't appear to have any specific relevance to the moral structure of the WW (NB - these are merely the speculations of a non-religious person taking the canon as a starting point. I don't want anyone to take offence. I personally feel that there is little possibility of an overtly religious dimension popping up in the next three books, but I don't want to force my position on anyone else). Therefore (is anyone still with me after that rather long parenthesis?)might there be a slight possibility that Lily's parents were still alive when Harry was born, and put some pressure on her to have her child baptised in the family tradition? Obviously the fact that Petunia shows very few signs of having been recently bereaved at the beginning of PS is rather against me on this one (and personally I support the "Lily's parents dead" theory. Whether or not Petunia disowned them, they would surely have expressed some concern at their missing grandson by now?). Of course, it might have just been an oversight - the employment of a random figure of speech without thought to the implications. What does anyone else think? Kirstini who today is feeling cowed, submissive and rather worried at the amount of thought she has given the above idea. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 1 00:43:07 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501004307.51856.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56666 Bill wrote: > Actually, I thought that they were there to > learn what they need to > know as an adult. All of the other subjects > would be available as > electives, but is learning how to harvest > Venemous Tentacula really > more important than learning how to balance a > chequebook? Is knowing > how to transfigure a hedgehog into a pincushion > more important than > knowing how to use the Internet? Me: Well, yes it is more important to learn how to transfigure a hedgehog into a pinchusion than knowing how to use the internet and learning how to harvest Venemous Tentacula is really more important than learning how to balance a checkbook if those are things you'll actually use in your daily life and the others aren't. Why would wizards need to learn how to balance a checkbook when they don't use checks? Why learn how to use the internet when they don't use computers? Heck, forget about the WW, why teach someone in the Netherlands how to balance a checkbook when they don't use checks. It took me a year of living here before I could comprehend that I didn't need the same types of banking skills I did in the US and to learn the new ones I did need (yes, I was slow but I offer the excuse that I was pregnant and learning a new language at the time LOL). You're right, the purpose is to teach what students need to learn to live as an adult but it must take into account what they will need in their world rather than what we need in our world. Oh, and on the 5 classes per week of PE, I submit that the students get plenty of physical exercise just by carrying all those books and all the stair climbing they have to do - especially those in Gryffindor. LOL Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 1 01:39:19 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501013919.9387.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56667 --- Tom wrote: > So, every instance that I can find of > point-taking on Snape's part is > the result of actual rule-breaking on the > Trio's. > > Even Dumbledore has to remind Harry to be > respectful of Snape's > postion in PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.17, p299: > > "Quirrell said Snape " > "*Professor* Snape, Harry." > "Yes, him " > [emphasis is converted from italics] > > And we see over and over again that whether or > not the Trio *likes* > Snape, they don't treat him with respect at > all. > > We don't have any in-canon situations where > Snape gives ridiculous > amounts of points to a Slytherin student, as, > say, Dumbledore does in > PS/SS and CoS for the Trio. > > Show me a situation where Snape takes points > flippantly, for no > reason whatsoever. > Me: Oh, a challenge. Well, not much of one since the first example that came to my mind hasn't been brought up yet. In PS p. 104, in their first Potions class, after Neville had melted the cauldron: "You - Potter - why didn't you tell him not to add the quills? Thought he'd make you look good if he got it wrong, did you? That's another point you've lost for Gryffindor." Seems to me that while Snape gave an explanation it was totally ridiculous for him to do so. How would Harry know what Neville was doing when he wasn't working with him? If not telling Neville was a point-taking offense, the point should have been taken from Neville's partner. Snape here sets the tone for the perception that he intends to be totally unfair to Harry and reinforces the perception that he is unfair to those from Gryffindor. And, while it's not points, during the Gryffindor/Hufflepuff Quidditch match: PS, p. 163: "'You know how I think they choose people for the Gryffindor team?' said Malfoy loudly a few minutes later, as Snape awarded Hufflepuff another penalty for no reason at all," As for Harry not respecting Snape, well, if I entered my first class with someone and got treated as Harry did by Snape, I'd have no respect for that teacher either. Harry did nothing but take notes. Gee, call me thick but isn't that what a student is supposed to be doing when a teacher lectures? Harry had done nothing to indicate that he thought he was some type of celebrity or that he was better than anyone else and yet Snape made a point of targeting Harry. PS p. 101 - "Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity." PS p. 102 - "'Potter!' said Snape suddenly. 'What would I get if I added powered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?' 'I don't know, sir,' said Harry. Snape's lip curled into a sneer. 'Tut, tut - fame clearly isn't everything.'" Another question and another I don't know answer leads to "'Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?' Harry forced himself to keep looking straight into those cold eyes. He had looked through his books at the Dursleys', but did Snape expect him to remember everything in One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi?" Snape hasn't done much to earn any respect and done lots to lose it. It's also been my experience that you get what you give. Snape gives no respect and gets none in return. As for Dumbledore awarding ridiculous points, I don't see them as ridiculous. He awarded HRH the points in PS for doing what the teachers couldn't - keeping Voldemort from getting the Philospher's Stone. I think that was a pretty significant thing to do. As for CoS, well, gee, they found the Chamber of Secrets, killed the basilisk and saved Ginny Weasley. Hermione didn't get any points, Harry and Ron did. Hmm, you would have awarded maybe 10 points for that? Again, they did what the teachers couldn't do and because they did it, Hogwarts didn't have to close. No, I don't see the points as ridiculous at all. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From scaryscarlet at aol.com Thu May 1 01:41:50 2003 From: scaryscarlet at aol.com (scaryscarlet at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:41:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors question Message-ID: <195.1992696e.2be1d55e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56668 Kristen writes: What good would the Lestranges be to LV after spending all this time in Azkaban? S (moi): Thats a really good point & I did think about that while reading GoF. I think Voldemort doesn't really care about their level of sanity. Crouch Jr was kept in Azkaban almost as long as the Lestranges & he suited Voldemorts needs just fine. Hargrid states in PoA "When they let me out, it was like bein' reborn again, ev'rythin' came floddin' back." Granted he was there only a short period however maybe thats how it works ... would just take a bit more time with someone that was there longer ... sooner or later with enough time & chocolate you'd be back to your old self. Also as the case with Sirius Black in PoA "I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I was innocent. That wasn't a happy though, so the dementors couldn't suck it out of me..." Perhaps the Lestranges & other DE's feel perfectly just in their actions, therefore the Dementors would not effect them. Another wild theory perhaps some DE's like the Lestranges are so evil they might actually thrive in such a place (at least their evil intentions might thrive). The Lestranges seem to be mighty important characters in the way they are mentioned throughout & their connection to Neville, I'm sure they will prove very useful to Voldemort in the books to come. > K: On the other hand, is it possible for dementors to > take the life force they have sucked in and pass it on to someone > else or restore it to the original person? Or do you think that's a > little too much B Horror Movie-esque (Night of the Living Dead)? > S: That would certainly be creepy wouldn't it. I don't think so though & this is why...Lupin explains in PoA about the Dementors Kiss & says "There's no chance at all of recovery" I think its the same with the 'life force' they feed off it & use it as fuel for their being. Really good questions though... think I'll reread PoA tonight. :) ~Samantha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From scaryscarlet at aol.com Thu May 1 01:56:56 2003 From: scaryscarlet at aol.com (scaryscarlet at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:56:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Pondering Arabella Figg Message-ID: <1f0.7dc5216.2be1d8e8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56669 Maria, maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com writes: (plus a few others said along the same lines) > I don't think Arabella Figg uses Polyjuice Potion because there's the > Ageing Potion, which is much easier to use. I really hope she's > young, but I doubt it. Ugh I'm such a nerd. I hadn't even considered the use of an Aging Potion & it could be a huge clue (as Rowling so often gives) from GoF. As far as a poor elderly lady trapped in a basement I don't think thats the case either. I just went with the assumption that since both Good & Evil characters seem to use the same magics in different ways & with different outcomes (like the Memory Charm thread) I figured Arabella Figg was not forcibly taking a persona, but indeed just borrowing one. Aging Potion, eh? Really good point. Because of the 'not literal' clue I still believe she isn't who she appears to be. ~Samantha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 02:05:59 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 02:05:59 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <000f01c30f65$679d2010$92ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56670 mongo62aa wrote: > > > Critical Thinking (1 class per week) Ethics (1 class per week) Writing Skills (1 class per week) > > > Kelly wrote: > > > These three things can easily be implemented within the class structure of other classes. DADA was suggested as one plausible place for Ethics, and I could see Critical Thinking come into play there. They already get a lot of practice with research in classes such as History of Magic and Potions. As for Writing Skills, the only lack I really see at Hogwarts is in Creative Writing. The kids get a lot of practice writing essays and chapter summaries, but never do we see them write a story or poetry for a class. Now that we mention it, there is no music or art program at Hogwarts, and little extracurricular activities (with the exception of Quidditch and the short-lived Duelling Club). > > > Now me: Just to add a personal touch =), I can relate to this particular topic. Focus is good, but nothing is good in excess. I go to a technical high school. It's a very good school, very competitive, I'd say borderline insane. =) It's an engineering school. Our only electives are engineering-based and for the first few years we don't have electives. "Extra" class periods not taken up by core cirriculum (English, History, Math) are designated engineering courses. We write theses about biological engineering in science and program our graphing calculators in math class. We have no teams- unless you count robotics. None of us know the first thing about art, music, literature. We skipped the section on color in our Physics textbook because no one could get the concepts of additive and subtractive color. Now, before the "wow you're such a computer geek," let me just say that obviously, focusing can be a bad thing. I go to school to learn engineering just as Harry goes to school to learn magic. But there's more to life than that. We're not even talking home ec stuff. Hermoine admits in PS/SS that most wizards don't have an ounce of logic. How do we really know just how well the students do on essays? I personally think they should have two classes- "Muggle Life," which is just a new name for what they currently call "Muggle Studies," and a *new* "Muggle Studies" class, in which they study Muggle concepts, like logic. If all A's are B's and all B's are C's, are all C's necessarily A's? Logic is life skill, wizard or not. Besides, I just want to see the look on Draco's face when he's told hhe has to take a class to learn the way Muggles do. =) I'd also vote for a PE class- Quidditch lessons. I bet wizards are all couch potatoes. =) -Laura From Lynx412 at aol.com Thu May 1 02:36:29 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:36:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts Message-ID: <128.28f764e9.2be1e22d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56671 In a message dated 4/30/03 10:07:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, metslvr19 at yahoo.com writes: > Besides, I just want to see the look on Draco's face when he's told > hhe has to take a class to learn the way Muggles do. =) Both points make sense to me. In fact, I was trying to set up a rpg for my daughter where the pureblood students were required to take Muggle studies, with a practical at the end...each is given a certain amount of Muggle money and dropped in London/big city and told to make their way to Kings Cross station on their own...or with a muggle-born/raised partner chosen randomly. Also field trips... the Hogwarts crew meet Dudley and Smeltings. Draco Lost in London with Hermione or Harry... Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From scaryscarlet at aol.com Thu May 1 02:10:27 2003 From: scaryscarlet at aol.com (scaryscarlet at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:10:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pondering Arabella Figg Message-ID: <5f.38e03d36.2be1dc13@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56672 Pat, patgruenke at cloudnet.com writes: > Why is Harry more > obsessed with his father than his mother? Rather Star Wars-ish > there... I'm thinking we can rule out Petunia as godmother or maid of > honor!!! I've often wondered that too. We know so much about James Potter & his friends (& nemeses) that I'm just betting Arabella has to to with Lily. I'm looking forward to more about Lily, as I stated before I'm just waiting for a very strong female character. One of my poker buddettes is adamant about Arabella being Dumbledore's spouse. I despise that theory as it kills my little Dumbledore/MacGonagall fantasies & it would also mean I'd lose a considerable amount of money in my paying off a little side bet we have going on. *bleh* Pat asks: Can I come, too???? I'm really bad at poker... ;-)? Of course, if you're ever in Los Angeles come on over! We are quite bad at it too, sometimes it borders on imitations of ruthless Las Vegas card sharks though usually it resembles more a game of Go Fish. (Have you got any Aces? I've almost got a pair! Trade ya for this pretty Jack!) Heh. Our sleuthing of Harry Potter plot lines of course get worse the more tequila we consume... ~Samantha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sfischer at hunter.com Thu May 1 02:35:09 2003 From: sfischer at hunter.com (angelfish302) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 02:35:09 -0000 Subject: Fawkes = Traitor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56673 Considering JKR's use of meaningful names (Voldemort, Draco, Narcissa, etc.), will Fawkes become a traitor like his namesake? --Angelfish From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 1 02:42:29 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:42:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <002c01c30f8b$4f937340$9dcdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56674 Kelly wrote: > > > These three things can easily be implemented within the class structure of other classes. DADA was suggested as one plausible place for Ethics, and I could see Critical Thinking come into play there. They already get a lot of practice with research in classes such as History of Magic and Potions. As for Writing Skills, the only lack I really see at Hogwarts is in Creative Writing. The kids get a lot of practice writing essays and chapter summaries, but never do we see them write a story or poetry for a class. Now that we mention it, there is no music or art program at Hogwarts, and little extracurricular activities (with the exception of Quidditch and the short-lived Duelling Club). > > > Now Laura: Just to add a personal touch =), I can relate to this particular topic. Focus is good, but nothing is good in excess. I go to a technical high school. It's a very good school, very competitive, I'd say borderline insane. =) It's an engineering school. Our only electives are engineering-based and for the first few years we don't have electives. "Extra" class periods not taken up by core cirriculum (English, History, Math) are designated engineering courses. We write theses about biological engineering in science and program our graphing calculators in math class. We have no teams- unless you count robotics. None of us know the first thing about art, music, literature. We skipped the section on color in our Physics textbook because no one could get the concepts of additive and subtractive color. Now Kelly (me) again: I mentioned the music and art programs not because I felt that all students should be required to take them, but because I know some students are gifted in that area (Dean seems to enjoy drawing, for instance). Currently, I don't really see an outlet for these kinds of talents. Again, perhaps this might not be important in the wizarding world, but it was something I thought of and wondered how these people develop these skills in the WW. Celestina Warbeck, for instance. The music and art programs would be extra-curricular activities available to those students interested. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From patricia at obscure.org Thu May 1 03:32:17 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godparents (Was: Pondering Arabella Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56675 On Thu, 1 May 2003, Kirstini wrote: > Anyway, all this talk about godparents has stirred up something > that I half registered and buried after reading PoA. That Harry has > *god*parents surely means (in Muggle tradition, obviously), that he > was baptised into the Christian religion at some point. Whether or > not the WW recognises a spiritual dimension, there has been no > mention made in any of the books of any form of organised religion > generally adhered to. "Generally adhered to," no, not if you mean a single faith held by most wizards and witches. But we do know of at least one wizarding figure who is (was?) very religious: the Fat Friar, resident ghost of Hufflepuff House, who was apparently devout enough to go and join a Catholic religious order. Nobody has commented within canon on the Fat Friar being somehow weird or extraordinary for being overtly religious, so it seems that Christianity is something generally considered within the bounds of "normal." Of course, that doesn't mean every wizard subscribes to the Christian religion, any more than every muggle Brit is Christian. It's also interesting to note that Parvati and Padma Patil are both named after Hindu goddesses. It makes me wonder whether their family gave them those names as a gesture of religious devotion, or whether they just thought those names sounded pretty. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu May 1 03:35:20 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 03:35:20 -0000 Subject: Dementors question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56676 Kristen wondered: > What good would the > Lestranges be to LV after spending all this time in Azkaban? ... > Do you all think the Death Eaters were allowed to keep their sanity > and their wits? This doesn't seem the case from the account of > Crouch Jr. there. On the other hand, is it possible for dementors to > take the life force they have sucked in and pass it on to someone > else or restore it to the original person? Or do you think that's a > little too much B Horror Movie-esque (Night of the Living Dead)? Me: I don't think the Dementors' effect is permanent. We haven't seen anyone outside the immediate presence of the dementors showing any long-term aftereffects. Certainly, it takes a few minutes at the least (for example, Harry's brief encounters) to recover, and recovery time is probably proportional to the length of time in the dementors' presence. But, as exampled by Hagrid and Crouch Jr. (and arguably Sirius), and possibly Karkaroff (we really don't know whether he spent a substantial amount of time in Azkaban before and/or after his appearance in court), wizards can recover completely once removed from the immediate vicinity of the dementors. Sirius' own post-traumatic symptoms are more likely the effect of losing his best friend, discovering another friend was responsible, being wrongly incarcerated, etc. In reply, Cathy wrote: > If the LeStranges aren't insane, I think it is because of > something similar - except that their thoughts are probably pure >evil,rather than thoughts of innocence. And Samantha similarly commented: > Another wild theory perhaps some DE's like the Lestranges are so >evil they might actually thrive in such a place (at least their evil >intentions might thrive). Me: Now, I'd be very disappointed if this were true. That is, if the Lestanges were "pure evil". I love JKR's villains because they are realistic characters. Even Voldemort has been given a motivation for his actions. I fully expect the Lestranges to have their own justification for their actions. No one is evil just for the sake of being evil, and even the most ruthless of criminals rarely consider his or herself to be so. Samantha also wrote: > Perhaps the Lestranges & other DE's feel > perfectly just in their actions, therefore the Dementors would not >effect them. Me again: But wouldn't that be a happy thought? Not to an outsider, of course, but to the Lestranges themselves. Theoretical Mrs. Lestrange has already voiced her expectation of reward when Voldemort rises again. She seemed perfectly content to wait and endure Azkaban. Key word: content. I don't think the dementors care whether the happiness has a good, wholesome source, or a dark, evil motivation. Happiness is happiness, and they'll take what they can get. -Corinth, who desperately wants the air conditioning in her lab to be repaired. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu May 1 03:55:49 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:55:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry living past book 7 Message-ID: <19d.143f4066.2be1f4c5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56677 In a message dated 4/30/2003 11:59:24 AM Central Standard Time, stbinch at actionsd.com writes: > Chapter Sixteen Through the Trapdoor Pg 262 US Edition > >"In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had > >managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to > >come bursting through the door at any momemt. > > >Now I know that JKR has answered questions about Harry's life after > >school with the "How do you know he lives" bit. But with this > >passage did she let us know that yes he does live or is she just > >talking about the years between leading up to his 7th year? > I think the phrase is refering to past year 7. To me it sounds as if Harry is relating the story to someone. And he'll have much bigger worries in books 2 - 7 to be pondering his 1st year exams. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu May 1 04:01:41 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 04:01:41 -0000 Subject: Fawkes = Traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelfish302" wrote: > Considering JKR's use of meaningful names (Voldemort, Draco, > Narcissa, etc.), will Fawkes become a traitor like his namesake? > > --Angelfish You might want to check out this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46256 plus other related posts made during the same period in time (use the "Up Thread" link on the website message display). Whether Guy Fawkes was actually a traitor was discussed in great detail in these posts and how the analogy might apply to the Potterverse. There's also a link to a site about the Gunpowder Plot in the above post. I hope that helps. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 1 04:17:37 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 04:17:37 -0000 Subject: Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56679 I wrote: >>Alternatively, if blood doesn't agree with you - Draco bribes Winky >>to put Killit's Owl Poison(tm) into Harry's goblet of pumpkin juice. >>It's safe for humans, see, but Hedwig collapses right in front of >>the Trio. Janet Anderson answered: >Winky has a lot of faults but stupidity is not one of them. >Furthermore, she has a *lot* of experience with evil wizards. She >wouldn't give Draco the time of day. However, she could be fooled by >someone she trusted (or someone using a Polyjuice disguise). "Just >drop these tablets into Potter's juice on your way past, would you, >Winky; they're to help him sleep." I didn't say she was stupid, I said that she could be bribed. But actually, I don't think even that is necessary. She doesn't like Harry much, does she? If this variant doesn't work for you, you can always go for the puddle-of-blood in the Owlery. :) >>Besides, I don't think Draco will do it becasue he's just not the >>type to get his hands dirty. It seems to me that it's more likely >>that Dudley will off Hedwig. >Draco might not, but Lucius would. *Lucius* would murder Harry's *owl* in order to get to Harry? Er. First, I have difficulty imagining Lucius to honestly think that someone would care about a pet all that much. And secondly, IMO that's not his style either. Sort of... small, low-scale for him. All IMHO of course. >And please note that if Hedwig dies by violence, as opposed to >poison, it would have to be by someone considerably stronger and >more competent than Dudley; owls have sharp beaks and claws and can >fly. I was thinking along the lines of a thrown stone or arsenic. I think it could work. But OTOH, how will this be beneficial to the plot? Questions, questions.. Maria From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu May 1 03:01:08 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:01:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A dumbledore question References: Message-ID: <3EB08DF4.B4D4BEF0@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56680 juniormandrake80 wrote: > > Hello - sorry I haven'te been online for a while, and I'm a bit > behind but I wondered if I could pose a question: > > Has anyone thought about the possibility of Dumbledore being on > Voldemorts side? I mean, In GOF, when Harry is looking at the > Pensieve, Dumbledore recalls SNape saying that "It's coming back.. > Karakoff's tpp... stronger and clearer than ever..." meaning the dark > mark (p.517) and Dumbledore merely says " A connection I could have > made without assistance, but never mind". COuld this mean that > Dumbledore is a double-agent, having the dark mark himself and so > being able to see it himself? Could Voldemort NOT be afraid of him, > or be afraid of him because he is in CONTROL of Voldemort? Or is > Voldemort not afraid because they are on the same side? I just wonder > what people think of this idea. The ambiguous state of the characters > goodness and evilness is quite blurred, so could it be possible? I > look forward to some reactions, if it hasn't already been said! > > Lisa XX > Dumbledore didn't need Snape to make the connection between the dark mark getting clearer and what it meant. He knew WHY Snape's mark was getting clearer. It didn't mean that Dumbledore also had the mark at all, but only that he didn't need Snape to tell him WHY Snape's mark was getting clearer. Its really a stretch to think that Dumbledore could ever be a DE. It's about as likely as James Potter being a DE. Jazmyn From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu May 1 03:44:00 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 03:44:00 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <002c01c30f8b$4f937340$9dcdaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56681 > Now Kelly (me) again: > > I mentioned the music and art programs not because I felt that all students > should be required to take them, but because I know some students are gifted > in that area (Dean seems to enjoy drawing, for instance). Currently, I > don't really see an outlet for these kinds of talents. Again, perhaps this > might not be important in the wizarding world, but it was something I > thought of and wondered how these people develop these skills in the WW. > Celestina Warbeck, for instance. The music and art programs would be > extra-curricular activities available to those students interested. There's a possibility that these programs do exist. I've noticed that in the books, we really only get a sense of things that affect Harry directly. For example, Hogsmeade visits are never even mentioned until Harry's class has the opportunity to go there. Maybe all we hear about is Quidditch and the electives that HRH are interested in. Who says, for example, there aren't upperclassmen taking Gobbledegook? Maybe there are other extra-curriculars that aren't as popular to watch as Quidditch. Just a thought for the Pensieve. imamommy From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Thu May 1 03:51:33 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:51:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes = Traitor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56682 From: "angelfish302" >Considering JKR's use of meaningful names (Voldemort, Draco, Narcissa, >etc.), will Fawkes become a traitor like his namesake? In the first place, we don't necessarily know that Narcissa's name is meaningful with respect to her character. We've seen her a grand total of once, and never heard her speak. For all we know, she's a complete sweetheart who has no idea that her husband is a Death Eater. (Okay, I don't think it's very likely, but it's possible she's cowed by Lucius' overbearing manner. Look how quickly Draco's sneer disappears when Harry mentions his mother; game's over, you better not say anything about his mum, them's fighting words, etc.) Anyway, though, Fawkes' connection to his namesake, I believe, is the bursting-into-flames bit. That's plenty, in my view. :-D Fox ........................ "... I think I'd like it if he *could* be wicked and *wouldn't." -- Anne of the Island ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu May 1 03:58:05 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 03:58:05 -0000 Subject: Stan Shunpike and class distinction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56683 Do all British wizarding children go to Hogwarts? What about Stan Shunpike? If he's 18 or 19 in PoA, mightn't he have been there for Harry's first year (if he went)? Are there major class distinctions in the WW? Are there some children whose families can't afford Hogwarts, and where do they go? Do all British children wear uniforms at school or is that just at elite boarding schools? How do the Creeveys support two students on a milkman's wages? Is there a scholarship program? Does anyone else think of this stuff? imamommy (who wishes someone would give her a Pensieve for Mother's Day) From ZaraLyon at aol.com Thu May 1 04:30:24 2003 From: ZaraLyon at aol.com (aurigae_prime) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 04:30:24 -0000 Subject: Bill's Teacher Ratings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > OK, as long as we are discussing Hogwarts teachers, let's look at all > of them. I will start with 8 points, and subtract points for > problems with the teacher. This is, of course, subjective, but I am > open to other ideas. You know Bill, in many of these cases I more or less agree with your rating, but not your reasons for it. I think your rating system suffers from only being on an 8-point scale-- I think a scale from 0- 10 would really be much more accurate, especially because you are laying incredibly harsh penalties down. As it stands now, Hogwarts has only 3 competent teachers! Also, you count certain offenses against some teachers, but not others, and in some cases I think you've allowed your perceptions of certain professors to influence your judgment. > In alphabetical order: > > Binns - Magical History - 3 points > > (lack of useful curriculum, minus 3 points, inability to hold > student's attention, minus 2 points) Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that teachers do not often have a great deal of control over curriculum. Granted, this is less the case at Hogwarts than in the muggle world (think The Monster Book of Monsters!), but if you are the History of Magic professor, you must teach History of Magic, and I would imagine that there are certain points, such as the Goblin Rebellions, that must be covered. So the curriculum really can't be blamed on Binns. In fact, we know that the textbook itself is "very interesting" according to Harry, who finds Hedwig's name in his HoM text. No, the problem here is that Binns simply cannot hold his class's attention, which would make him a 6 on your scale. Obviously that can't be accurate, as Hermione is the ONLY student to pay any attention to Binns whatsoever. Myself, I would say that "inability to hold students' attention" should be worth considerably more than two points. One or two students ignoring the teacher is probably par for the course, but when only one is paying attention, it's time to look for a new profession--or else to "give up the ghost" if you'll pardon the pun. > > Hagrid, Care of Magical Creatures - 4 points > > (lack of proper classroom safety precautions, minus 2 points, lack of > proper curriculum, minus 2 points) If the "lack of safety precautions" refers to the Buckbeak incident, then that's just rubbish--the only problem there was Draco being a moron. If, however, it refers to his experiment with the Blast-Ended Skrewts, then I wouldn't bother saying "lack of safety precautions" and go straight to "incompetent fool of a teacher." No one has ever seen a Skrewt before, and if Hagrid hadn't bred them, no one ever would have. Thus, he took up time that should have been spent on REAL creatures and spent it on a personal experiment. He's only lucky that no one was seriously hurt. Hagrid didn't know what to feed the Skrewts, or what sort of habitat they liked, or how to control them. Putting them in the hands of his second-year CoMC class would be the equivalent of my Introduction to Chemistry professor giving my lab group an experiment he'd never tried involving chemicals he knew nothing about. As for Hagrid's curriculum, I really don't think it's so bad. He certainly did seem to have an intended schedule during PoA, though after the Buckbeak incident he lost his nerve. During GoF, I think that if he had used a different creature, his idea of having his students raise something would have made an excellent project. And certainly by the end of the year he does much better with his lessons. The Niffler lesson was wonderful, and as someone else noted, he went Professor Grubbly-Plank one better by bringing baby unicorns so the boys could participate as well as the girls. My biggest problem with Hagrid as a teacher is simply that he puts his own agenda -- his "interestin' creatures" -- ahead of what he should be teaching his class. I bounced some of these points off a friend while preparing this post, and she said that I should give Hagrid more credit because his heart was in the right place. The problem is that, while I'm more than willing to give my FRIENDS credit for having their heart in the right place, I don't think that a teacher should get that sort of extra credit. However, I'm more than willing to give Hagrid points for not giving up and coming back strong toward the end of GoF. I also give him points for being willing to take this position with a group of kids who had been preconditioned to expect him to be a friend or a servant, instead of a professor. > > Flitwick - Charms - 8 points > > (no problems) By and large I agree with this assessment. Flitwick, IMHO, is just one of the best teachers at Hogwarts. However, if you want to claim that Trelawney has "poor classroom conditions" you might need to consider applying this to Flitwick as well. On more than one occasion he has allowed the kids to play games during lessons, and the classroom inevitably turns into bedlam (with Neville banishing poor Flitwick across the room, no less!). > > McGonnagall - Transfiguration - 7 points > > (somewhat unfair with house points (against Gryffindor), minus 1 > point) Given that McGonagall is the head of Gryffindor, I see absolutely no reason to claim that she is unfair with the house points. She takes house points away from her students *when they break the rules.* This is not being unfair to anyone; it would be unfair if she didn't take points. She certainly doesn't hesitate to take points from Slytherin when Malfoy breaks the rules. And I believe that canon even states specifically that McGonagall is very strict but very fair. I don't see how you can justify this claim at all. By the way, McGonagall also undercuts other teachers (see below). > > Snape - Potions - 0 points > > (grossly unfair with house points, minus 3 points, cruel to targeted > students, minus 4 points, undercuts other teachers, minus 1 point) Other people have already argued that, while Snape can be ridiculously heavy-handed when taking points from Gryffindor, very seldom does he take points for no reason. As well, he's never been noticed giving house points to Slytherin, even during Potions class. And to be fair, during Potions, about 95% of all disruptions are caused by the Gryffindors. At any rate, while I would say that Snape is biased against Gryffindor, I would hardly say that he is "grossly unfair." In response to your second point, yes, Snape is cruel to targeted students. Harry, Hermione, and Neville all take more cr*p from the man than any student should really have to take (oddly, I seldom see him go after Ron). However, as has been said, Harry and Hermione REALLY DO cause trouble. Hermione really CAN be a problem in class (and yes, I've been guilty of the same disruptions, and silenced just as harshly on occasion), and Harry really DOES break a lot of rules. Many of them are broken for good reasons, but when Harry does stupid things, like the visits to Hogsmeade, he needs to be called on the carpet for them, and Snape, more often than not, ends up having to be the bad guy because no one else will! The worst part of Snape's conduct, to me, is his attitude towards Neville (the "I see no difference" comment as well, but mostly Neville). Clearly, Neville is not benefitting at all from his time in Snape's classes. That Snape can't see this and try another tactic with the boy is the biggest black mark in his book. No one else is truly being hurt by Snape's instruction, but I can't believe that no one at Hogwarts has stepped into this situation. As for Snape's undercutting his colleagues, he's hardly the only professor guilty of this. After all, McGonagall is barely civil to Trelawny ("Tripe, Sibyll?") and all the teachers band together against Lockhart. Granted, Trelawney is a fraud and Lupin is the genuine article, but a teacher is a teacher. And frankly, while it's certainly annoying to deal with, it seems to me to be a common part of all schools. Eventually you learn what teacher not to mention in front of what other teacher. What you have not mentioned here is the fact that A) Snape is evidently one of the highest Potions authorities in the wizarding world, according to Lupin and B) students DO seem to be learning potions. Granted, Hermione is Hermione, but I doubt that a student of Any Old Potions Instructor could brew up a working batch of Polyjuice Potion at the age of twelve. Or take Fred and George-- they're still in school and inventing new, Potions-related, candies. Give me a teacher who really knows what he's doing and how to teach me, and I'll gladly overlook his hygiene and personality. And, as someone else said, at least he's honest. > > Sprout - Herbology - 8 points > > (no problems) Really? What about in GoF when she's cold to Harry because he was entered in the TriWizard Tournament? If that isn't house favoritism, I don't know what is! Here's a student being hassled for something that he is desperately claiming is not his fault, and the teacher can't be bothered because he's in the wrong house! > > Trelawney - Divination - 3 points > > (shows favoritism with students, minus 1 point, lack of ability in > own field, minus 3 points, poor classroom conditions, minus 1 point) Personally, I don't think Trelawney's "favoritism" is really that big a deal. She's not favoring Parvati and Lavender to the detriment of anyone else. It's a little unprofessional, yes, but no one seems to mind, and it doesn't seem to affect their grades or anyone else's. With regard to her classroom conditions, I really don't see how you can make this claim. First of all, according to some theories of education, Trelawney's setup (the comfortable seats arranged in small groups) is an ideal one for learning. And as for the smoke and incense and whatever else, I believe this is intended to be a necessary condition to help students relax in order to See. Even Harry, who makes up all his Divination homework, has had a true vision in this atmosphere. No, the problem with Trelawney is that she has no ability in her field. Which, though you only mark her down 3 points for this, tells me that she shouldn't be teaching at all. Divination is NOT a class where you can read the textbook and teach or learn only from that-- there has to be talent involved, and the teacher should HAVE that talent. At the very least, an incompetent teacher should be judged as harshly as a cruel one. And, after all, one could make the case that she picks on Harry unfairly-- she predicts his death once a lesson and often tries to force him to "share" more of his thoughts/visions than anyone else. Rhiannon the Raven-Slyth From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu May 1 04:33:47 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:33:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death Message-ID: <147.107e18e0.2be1fdab@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56685 Janet anderson: > >>Besides, I don't think Draco will do it becasue he's just not the > >>type to get his hands dirty. It seems to me that it's more likely > >>that Dudley will off Hedwig. > > >Draco might not, but Lucius would. > Maria: > *Lucius* would murder Harry's *owl* in order to get to Harry? Er. > First, I have difficulty imagining Lucius to honestly think that > someone would care about a pet all that much. And secondly, IMO > that's not his style either. Sort of... small, low-scale for him. All > IMHO of course. I agree...not Lucius. However, I actually CAN see Draco being involved in the death or harm of Hedwig. At least indirectly. Lucius might not understand about someone loving a pet, but Draco would. Case and point: Beaky and Hagrid. Draco knew how much Hagrid loved the Hippogriph and how much it would hurt him when Beaky was excecuted. He (and possibly even Lucius and others) may think it is stupid to love a pet, but they do know that people love them. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu May 1 05:02:56 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:02:56 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: References: <3EB0DA28.13177.32F104C@localhost> Message-ID: <3EB13720.27906.29212D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56686 On 1 May 2003 at 1:04, jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > > > I remember having many teachers like Snape at school, and I thank > God every day I did. Yes, I had to endure their cutting remarks, and > sometimes that hurt. But they taught me to think in ways that other > teachers never had. They ignited a fire of learning in me that burns > brightly. I didn't come out of their classes afraid, I came out of > them enraged and wanting to show them what I could do.> > > This is exactly where I think Snape goes wrong and where I can > understand why so many people here think Snape should be fired. Snape > picks on students because he can. How do we know that, though? How can we see his motivations, how can we identify why he does what he does? We see things, mostly, the way Harry sees them - and that's not something I think can be relied on. It's something I've been thinking about in recent weeks. Basically because I found in a University library, a history of one of the schools I attended, written only a couple of years ago which covers the period I was there. I had two Snapish teachers at that school. One I quite liked despite his Snape-like qualities, the other I roundly detested. Interestingly in the book, both are described, and reading those descriptions from an adult perspective, I found myself looking back on both the men far more fondly than I did 15 years ago. I got an insight into their philosophy, into what they were trying to do, what motivated them. In the case of the one I despised - well, I'm still rather ambivalent to him. Reading about him, I can see what he *tried* to do - I don't think he succeeded, I still don't think I benefitted much from having him as a teacher *but* I can see his motivations, his intentions, his ideals were good ones. I could never have seen that when I was at school (he taught me when I was 13) and I never did. The thing is, with Snape, we can only infer his motives. We really are in the position of the child trying to assess their teacher and I'm certainly not confident we have enough information to make firm judgements. If we could see into his head (get a Pensieve into his room perhaps and wait until he's used it a few months) this would be a clearer cut issue, IMHO. > He may not like being a teacher, > but he does enjoy teaching and he loves the authority he has in the > classroom. He likes it so much that he confuses insulting and > intimidating students with teaching. Shaun, you may have been > motivated by Snape-like teachers, but most students are not. The > teachers in my past who picked on me made me feel terrible. I never > wanted to participate in their classes and now, as a teacher, I can't > tell you how many times my students have approached me to complain > about another teacher treating them unfairly. I am shocked to hear of > some of the things teachers have actually said to students. It makes > me understand why so many NYC kids don't want to stay in school. Sure, and I am *not* denying for a moment that Snape is in a position to do a great deal of harm to a great many people. And I am not saying that my experiences are generally representative because I know they are not. But I had the experience of being forced to endure an education system that was based very much on the assumption that if something was good for most children, it was the way things should be done - and any exceptions could be ignored. As one of the constant exceptions, that was pretty soul destroying and it's left me with a very firm belief that if a teacher is getting through to *ANY* of the kids in their class, their existence is worthwhile. Education shouldn't be based on averages, and what's right for most children. It should be based on individuals, on finding ways that are right for every child. Practically speaking, of course, compromises have to be made and it generally makes sense for those to tend to the average and the majority - but it's not ideal and when discussing Hogwarts, we don't really have to deal with practicalities. Dumbledore probably has to - we don't (-8 > It is not Snape's job to "toughen up" his students. It is his job to > teach them how to brew successful potions. One moment! This is not what I meant at all. I certainly do not believe it's Snape's job to toughen up his students, and a desire to toughen up kids is *NOT* the reason I think Snape-like teachers can have value. They can have value not because they make kids tough - but because the methods they use can be very effective in teaching. Some kids LEARN BETTER from teachers who exhibit Snape like characteristics. I was one of them. > It is also his job to know > how to work with his students, to assess their skills and to help them > strengthen their weaknesses while encouraging them to use their > strengths - positively, not negatively. He knew he was terrifying > Neville and to me, that is quite an abuse of his position. He also > knew, I am sure, that insulting Hermione would be the ultimate in > nasty actions, as all 14 year old girls are extremely self-conscious. > He knew exactly how to hit her where it hurts. I certainly agree on Neville - and I think I made that clear in my own post. But I'm not so sure on Hermione. I had teachers humiliate me on a couple of occasions to great success educationally. It worked on me. And sometimes it worked when other methods had failed. If it had been constant, it probably would have killed me. But an occasional instance in an educational environment where I generally felt secure didn't do me any harm. I do think Snape crosses a line when he comments on Hermione's teeth - because that wasn't an educational situation, and he was dealing with somebody who was already distressed (with good reason). I do think Snape gets it *VERY* wrong at least once. But there are other instances, where I'm far less sure, and I don't think we can be sure yet. It took me until I was 28 and reading a book from a library to come to respect some of my teachers. My view until then was very different. When we look at Snape, we are dealing with limited perspective from limited maturity. And that's risky. > Teachers should not be bullies. It is not their job to use methods of > intimidation to get results from students. I get some great work from > my students because I encourage them by smiling and by complimenting > them (I'm no pushover, though!), not by scowling and scaring the hell > out of them. Snape can be a strict teacher who earns the respect of > his students by respecting them. Right now, I see no evidence that he > respects them, and I'm not sure what lesson there is in that. Well, let me say this. I had teachers who encouraged me by smiling and by complimenting me. And beyond the age of 8 years old, I didn't learn a thing in any of their classes. That wasn't what I needed, that wasn't what worked for me. It works for your pupils, great - and I'm learning those methods myself as a teaching student because I KNOW they work wonderfully for so many kids. But no single methods work for all kids. Some need something different - not all kids, and those who do, may only need it for a time. But sometimes. And, for me, from age 13-15 or so, I needed Snape (actually I think I needed him at 8 - but I didn't encounter a teacher like that until I was 13). After that - things changed again. How much did I need it? Well, let's put it this way. When I started at the school I went to at 13 and first encountered these teachers, I felt like Harry finding Hogwarts. It's one reason the books appealed to me so much when I came into contact with them - because those feelings were so real. That's how much I needed this, how much I wanted this. It gave me a place to learn as I needed to learn. It literally kept me alive. Now - not all the teachers there were pseudo-Snapes, just 2 out of the 10 or so I had contact with that year (and my favourite teacher was more McGonnagal like) - but having a couple among the others was a good mix for me. And it gave me back a life, and it gave me back some semblance of a childhood, and it gave me the fire to learn I'd lost in 4 years of teaching methods that were probably great for 90% of the kids around me, but were not right for me. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Thu May 1 05:38:14 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 05:38:14 -0000 Subject: Bill's Teacher Ratings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56687 Bill (original): In alphabetical order: Binns - Magical History - 3 points (lack of useful curriculum, minus 3 points, inability to hold student's attention, minus 2 points) Rhiannon: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that teachers do not often have a great deal of control over curriculum. Granted, this is less the case at Hogwarts than in the muggle world (think The Monster Book of Monsters!), but if you are the History of Magic professor, you must teach History of Magic, and I would imagine that there are certain points, such as the Goblin Rebellions, that must be covered. So the curriculum really can't be blamed on Binns. In fact, we know that the textbook itself is "very interesting" according to Harry, who finds Hedwig's name in his HoM text. No, the problem here is that Binns simply cannot hold his class's attention, which would make him a 6 on your scale. Obviously that can't be accurate, as Hermione is the ONLY student to pay any attention to Binns whatsoever. Myself, I would say that "inability to hold students' attention" should be worth considerably more than two points. One or two students ignoring the teacher is probably par for the course, but when only one is paying attention, it's time to look for a new profession--or else to "give up the ghost" if you'll pardon the pun. Bill (responding): You are absolutely right that Goblin Rebellions must be covered, but, at least from Harry Potter's perspective, the coverage is quite disproportionate. Unfortunately, Harry's perspective is all we have, so I have to assume that it is relatively accurate. Bill (original): Hagrid, Care of Magical Creatures - 4 points (lack of proper classroom safety precautions, minus 2 points, lack of proper curriculum, minus 2 points) Rhiannon: If the "lack of safety precautions" refers to the Buckbeak incident, then that's just rubbish--the only problem there was Draco being a moron. If, however, it refers to his experiment with the Blast-Ended Skrewts, then I wouldn't bother saying "lack of safety precautions" and go straight to "incompetent fool of a teacher." No one has ever seen a Skrewt before, and if Hagrid hadn't bred them, no one ever would have. Thus, he took up time that should have been spent on REAL creatures and spent it on a personal experiment. He's only lucky that no one was seriously hurt. Hagrid didn't know what to feed the Skrewts, or what sort of habitat they liked, or how to control them. Putting them in the hands of his second-year CoMC class would be the equivalent of my Introduction to Chemistry professor giving my lab group an experiment he'd never tried involving chemicals he knew nothing about. As for Hagrid's curriculum, I really don't think it's so bad. He certainly did seem to have an intended schedule during PoA, though after the Buckbeak incident he lost his nerve. During GoF, I think that if he had used a different creature, his idea of having his students raise something would have made an excellent project. And certainly by the end of the year he does much better with his lessons. The Niffler lesson was wonderful, and as someone else noted, he went Professor Grubbly-Plank one better by bringing baby unicorns so the boys could participate as well as the girls. My biggest problem with Hagrid as a teacher is simply that he puts his own agenda -- his "interestin' creatures" -- ahead of what he should be teaching his class. I bounced some of these points off a friend while preparing this post, and she said that I should give Hagrid more credit because his heart was in the right place. The problem is that, while I'm more than willing to give my FRIENDS credit for having their heart in the right place, I don't think that a teacher should get that sort of extra credit. However, I'm more than willing to give Hagrid points for not giving up and coming back strong toward the end of GoF. I also give him points for being willing to take this position with a group of kids who had been preconditioned to expect him to be a friend or a servant, instead of a professor. Bill (responding): I don't have much to add. Let's just say that Hagrid is still learning his job. Bill (original): Flitwick - Charms - 8 points (no problems) Rhiannon: By and large I agree with this assessment. Flitwick, IMHO, is just one of the best teachers at Hogwarts. However, if you want to claim that Trelawney has "poor classroom conditions" you might need to consider applying this to Flitwick as well. On more than one occasion he has allowed the kids to play games during lessons, and the classroom inevitably turns into bedlam (with Neville banishing poor Flitwick across the room, no less!). Bill (responding): Again, not much to add. I will deal with the Flitwick vs. Trelawney issue under her rating. Bill (original): McGonnagall - Transfiguration - 7 points (somewhat unfair with house points (against Gryffindor), minus 1 point) Rhiannon: Given that McGonagall is the head of Gryffindor, I see absolutely no reason to claim that she is unfair with the house points. She takes house points away from her students *when they break the rules.* This is not being unfair to anyone; it would be unfair if she didn't take points. She certainly doesn't hesitate to take points from Slytherin when Malfoy breaks the rules. And I believe that canon even states specifically that McGonagall is very strict but very fair. I don't see how you can justify this claim at all. By the way, McGonagall also undercuts other teachers (see below). Bill (responding): What I meant by being unfair is that she is inconsistent with her points given vs. taken. In PS, when Harry and Ron save Hermione's life by defeating a mountain troll, they are given a mere 5 points each. But when Harry, Hermione, and Neville are later caught out of their dormitory at night, they have 50 points each deducted. So it seems that being out of bounds at night is ten times more important than saving a fellow student's life. Also, note that Draco, caught for the same offence, loses only 20 points. I think that she is trying so hard not to favor Gryffindor that she is going the other direction, and being excessively harsh with them. Bill (original): Snape - Potions - 0 points (grossly unfair with house points, minus 3 points, cruel to targeted students, minus 4 points, undercuts other teachers, minus 1 point) Rhiannon: Other people have already argued that, while Snape can be ridiculously heavy-handed when taking points from Gryffindor, very seldom does he take points for no reason. As well, he's never been noticed giving house points to Slytherin, even during Potions class. And to be fair, during Potions, about 95% of all disruptions are caused by the Gryffindors. At any rate, while I would say that Snape is biased against Gryffindor, I would hardly say that he is "grossly unfair." In response to your second point, yes, Snape is cruel to targeted students. Harry, Hermione, and Neville all take more cr*p from the man than any student should really have to take (oddly, I seldom see him go after Ron). However, as has been said, Harry and Hermione REALLY DO cause trouble. Hermione really CAN be a problem in class (and yes, I've been guilty of the same disruptions, and silenced just as harshly on occasion), and Harry really DOES break a lot of rules. Many of them are broken for good reasons, but when Harry does stupid things, like the visits to Hogsmeade, he needs to be called on the carpet for them, and Snape, more often than not, ends up having to be the bad guy because no one else will! The worst part of Snape's conduct, to me, is his attitude towards Neville (the "I see no difference" comment as well, but mostly Neville). Clearly, Neville is not benefitting at all from his time in Snape's classes. That Snape can't see this and try another tactic with the boy is the biggest black mark in his book. No one else is truly being hurt by Snape's instruction, but I can't believe that no one at Hogwarts has stepped into this situation. As for Snape's undercutting his colleagues, he's hardly the only professor guilty of this. After all, McGonagall is barely civil to Trelawny ("Tripe, Sibyll?") and all the teachers band together against Lockhart. Granted, Trelawney is a fraud and Lupin is the genuine article, but a teacher is a teacher. And frankly, while it's certainly annoying to deal with, it seems to me to be a common part of all schools. Eventually you learn what teacher not to mention in front of what other teacher. What you have not mentioned here is the fact that A) Snape is evidently one of the highest Potions authorities in the wizarding world, according to Lupin and B) students DO seem to be learning potions. Granted, Hermione is Hermione, but I doubt that a student of Any Old Potions Instructor could brew up a working batch of Polyjuice Potion at the age of twelve. Or take Fred and George-- they're still in school and inventing new, Potions-related, candies. Give me a teacher who really knows what he's doing and how to teach me, and I'll gladly overlook his hygiene and personality. And, as someone else said, at least he's honest. Bill (responding): You are certainly right that other teachers are less than civil to their colleagues, and this is to be expected, but Snape went over the line when he deliberately tried to get Lupin fired - and 'letting slip' to students that he was a werewolf, given the WW's attitudes toward them, counts in my book as such. Not to mention his express desire to see him get the Dementor's Kiss as well - without a trial, I may add. I have never doubted that Snape is an expert at brewing potions. However, what Hogwarts needs is an expert at *teaching* potions. The potions taught at Hogwarts are not Master-level efforts, but simpler, easier concoctions. Hogwarts would be far better served by a lesser Potion brewer, but better teacher. Bill (original): Sprout - Herbology - 8 points (no problems) Rhiannon: Really? What about in GoF when she's cold to Harry because he was entered in the TriWizard Tournament? If that isn't house favoritism, I don't know what is! Here's a student being hassled for something that he is desperately claiming is not his fault, and the teacher can't be bothered because he's in the wrong house! Bill (responding): I confess that I had totally forgotten about that. Mea culpa. Bill (original): Trelawney - Divination - 3 points (shows favoritism with students, minus 1 point, lack of ability in own field, minus 3 points, poor classroom conditions, minus 1 point) Rhiannon: Personally, I don't think Trelawney's "favoritism" is really that big a deal. She's not favoring Parvati and Lavender to the detriment of anyone else. It's a little unprofessional, yes, but no one seems to mind, and it doesn't seem to affect their grades or anyone else's. With regard to her classroom conditions, I really don't see how you can make this claim. First of all, according to some theories of education, Trelawney's setup (the comfortable seats arranged in small groups) is an ideal one for learning. And as for the smoke and incense and whatever else, I believe this is intended to be a necessary condition to help students relax in order to See. Even Harry, who makes up all his Divination homework, has had a true vision in this atmosphere. No, the problem with Trelawney is that she has no ability in her field. Which, though you only mark her down 3 points for this, tells me that she shouldn't be teaching at all. Divination is NOT a class where you can read the textbook and teach or learn only from that-- there has to be talent involved, and the teacher should HAVE that talent. At the very least, an incompetent teacher should be judged as harshly as a cruel one. And, after all, one could make the case that she picks on Harry unfairly-- she predicts his death once a lesson and often tries to force him to "share" more of his thoughts/visions than anyone else. Bill (responding): My problem with Trelawney's classroom conditions is that they tend to put the students to sleep - rather similar to Binns in that respect. That, at least, is not a problem in Flitwick's classes. Your post made some logical arguments in support of different conclusions than my original ones. I agree with some of them, and still disagree with others. I would be interested in seeing your own evaluations of the Hogwarts teachers. Bill From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 05:39:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 05:39:12 -0000 Subject: Neville (was: More on Snape & a couple of questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > > Rune wrote: > > > That said, we still don't know if it would occur to Neville to refer to himself as a squib when recalling how his family suspected him of not being magical. This just shows that him being almost a squib is something that he has given a thought. > > Me: > The conversation takes place after Justin and Nearly Headless > Nick are attacked. Neville is reminded that he doesn't need > protection as he is a pure blood and he replies by refering to > himself as almost being a squib. ...edited... > > -Linda The first time when Neville refers to himself as a muggle, his is happy and (for him) reasonably confident. He's in a new school and getting aquainted with new friend, so he refers to himself using a polite word. The next time when he refers to himself as a Squib, he is frightened and worried, and definitely not very confident, so he refers to himself with a more derogatory term; squib. Just a thought. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 1 05:48:09 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 05:48:09 -0000 Subject: Death / Is Snape unfair with House Points? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56689 I wrote: > *Lucius* would murder Harry's *owl* in order to get to Harry? Er. > First, I have difficulty imagining Lucius to honestly think that > someone would care about a pet all that much. And secondly, IMO > that's not his style either. Sort of... small, low-scale for him. All > IMHO of course. Cassie replied: I agree...not Lucius. However, I actually CAN see Draco being involved in the death or harm of Hedwig. At least indirectly. Lucius might not understand about someone loving a pet, but Draco would. Case and point: Beaky and Hagrid. Draco knew how much Hagrid loved the Hippogriph and how much it would hurt him when Beaky was excecuted. He (and possibly even Lucius and others) may think it is stupid to love a pet, but they do know that people love them. Me: Well, I'm not sure that Draco knew that Hagrid loved Buckbeak. I think that the whole Let's-execute-the-hyppogriff affair was a natural extention of Draco's quest to sack Hagrid. It was a side effect. *But*, OTOH, he *saw* that Hagrid loved Buckbeak very much later on in PoA. So you have a really good point. But I just *can't* see Harry angsting over Hedwig's death so much that it would actually make a difference to Voldemort. I am sure he'll be brokenhearted. At first. For a while. He'll probably be more upset than Lavender Brown. But I can't see JKR making a huge point of it all, unless it ties in with a plot twist. Like, for example, Hedwig is murdered as she's trying to deliver a letter from Sirius. ++++++++++END THIS PART++++++++++++ Lynn wrote: As for Harry not respecting Snape, well, if I entered my first class with someone and got treated as Harry did by Snape, I'd have no respect for that teacher either. Harry did nothing but take notes. Gee, call me thick but isn't that what a student is supposed to be doing when a teacher lectures? Harry had done nothing to indicate that he thought he was some type of celebrity or that he was better than anyone else and yet Snape made a point of targeting Harry. Me: Actually, he wasn't even taking notes. I believe that's movie contamination. And I think that makes Snape even nastier in your book. But I am prepared to cut Snape a break when we're talking about his treatment of Harry, and especially when we're using it as evidence of his incompetence as a teacher. Snape's problem is that he's unable to act differently in the classroom than he does outside of it. He's not a pleasant person, but he never pretends to be. He's honest, as someone said. I like that. Instead, we should deal with other evidence, IMHO. Lynn: As for Dumbledore awarding ridiculous points, I don't see them as ridiculous. He awarded HRH the points in PS for doing what the teachers couldn't - keeping Voldemort from getting the Philospher's Stone. I think that was a pretty significant thing to do. As for CoS, well, gee, they found the Chamber of Secrets, killed the basilisk and saved Ginny Weasley. Hermione didn't get any points, Harry and Ron did. Hmm, you would have awarded maybe 10 points for that? Again, they did what the teachers couldn't do and because they did it, Hogwarts didn't have to close. No, I don't see the points as ridiculous at all. Me: I am of the opinion that the whole Philosopher's Stone adventure was set up by Dumbledore. As for the basilisk - they rightly, IMO, got those points. My whole problem with giving out the points is how Dumbledore does it in PS. Not delving deeply into the problem, I believe that the way he did it was just plain wrong. The timing and the exact number of awarded points were awful. Dumbledore Dissed the Slyths. If that's not favouritism, I don't know what is. Maria, who has a slightly milder form of Snape for a teacher, and hated his lessons, but learned a lot from them. From hieya at hotmail.com Thu May 1 04:35:28 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 04:35:28 -0000 Subject: Secret Keeper Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56690 Hi everyone..I noticed something unusual in PoA...Sirius said that the Potters had switched their Secret-Keeper at the last minute...we were led to assume that they did this because Sirius was an easy target for Voldemort (it was well known that he was close to James)...but, Dumbledore later told Hermione and Harry that he had testified to the Ministry that Black had been the Potters' Secret Keeper (during that frantic conversation in the hospital wing). Dumbledore DID NOT KNOW about the switch. Why would the Potters keep something so big a secret from him unless they suspected that he was not as good as he seemed? Why didn't they use him as their secret keeper? I wonder whether the switch was because of the threat of Voldemort or Dumbledore. Sorry if this has been discussed already. I'd love to hear your responses anyway. greatlit2003, who loves Dumbly-Dorr until he's proven guilty From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 1 06:04:05 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:04:05 -0000 Subject: Dementors question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56691 Kristen writes: What good would the Lestranges be to LV after spending all this time in Azkaban? Samantha wrote: >Thats a really good point & I did think about that while reading >GoF. I think Voldemort doesn't really care about their level of >sanity. Crouch Jr was kept in Azkaban almost as long as the >Lestranges & he suited Voldemorts needs just fine. Well, no. Crouch Jr stayed there for around a year (darn, I keep forgetting stuff, I haven't reread the books in several months). The Lestranges are still there (13 years). It had been pointed out before that perhaps the Imperius Curse causes insanity. Crouch Jr was kept under it for 12 years, and he's mad as a hatter. Crouch Sr was Imperio'd for several months, and he certainly did not seem quite sane. Of course, that could also be the result of the Cruciatus Curse, which he'd probably had a round or two of. And Crouch Jr was useful to Voldemort because he was so faithful. He was crazy, of course, but quite capable of carrying out their plan. Of course, he shows off a lot, and it's a wonder someone didn't catch on. I keep remembering Agatha Christie's novels, when Poirot, or other characters keep repeating that you can always find the villain because he's so arrogant that he'll push you in the right direction if you don't find it yourself. Yeah, Fake Moody did that a lot. Who asked him to talk about Confunding the Goblet? But he pulled it off anyway. >Hargrid states in PoA "When they let me out, it >was like bein' reborn again, ev'rythin' came floddin' back." Granted >he was there only a short period however maybe thats how it >works ... would just take a bit more time with someone that was >there longer ... sooner or later with enough time & chocolate you'd >be back to your old self. Also as the case with Sirius Black in >PoA "I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I >was innocent. That wasn't a happy though, so the dementors couldn't >suck it out of me..." Perhaps the Lestranges & other DE's feel >perfectly just in their actions, therefore the Dementors would not >effect them. I think that's a good point. I agree. >Another wild theory perhaps some DE's like the Lestranges are so >evil they might actually thrive in such a place (at least their evil >intentions might thrive). The Lestranges seem to be mighty important >characters in the way they are mentioned throughout & their >connection to Neville, I'm sure they will prove very useful to >Voldemort in the books to come. I really hope we see the Lestranges. They sound amazing. But I don't think they enjoy Azkaban. Maria From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Thu May 1 05:10:06 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Albania? Message-ID: <20030501051006.27772.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56692 Well, welcome Katie! You wrote: 2.) I did some research on the country, and apparently, Albanians, at least very old and local Albanians, are part of The Cult of the Snake. They believe that snakes are protectors, and that if you hang a dead one above your door, evil will not come into your house. There are even some festivals honoring them. Maybe JKR knows a little more about this than I do, but maybe Nagini is a leader type thing of these people. Maybe they also picked Albania to hide out, because if people there worshiped the snakes, if they saw Nagini slithering around, the might think it was a miracle rather than a curse. now me: I always wondered why JKR chose Albania as well. The thing is, I am Albanian and I have never heard of this idea that you posted. I would appreciate a Point Me, if you could provide a link? Thanks a lot, hope you like the list so far. ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 06:04:49 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:04:49 -0000 Subject: Food and Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cristina Rebelo Angelo" wrote: > > > > When a wizard conjures food, he is conjuring a temporary > > illusion. ...edited.. > > > > > > Zach > > Me: > > In Hogwarts, the food is conjured up from the kitchen, ...edited... > > ...edited... > > Also, why don't they conjure away the pesty little creatures in > their garden? ...edited... > > ************************** > Cristina Rebelo ?ngelo bboy_mn: You are using a much broader definition of 'conjuring' than is used in the general context of this discussion. Your use is techincally correct; that is, it fits the dictionary definition. But the way we are using it (or at least, I thought we were) in this discussion, it means to make something appear, but appear in the sense of creating something out of nothing. Technically, all magic could be considered conjuring, but to conjure some food for this discussion, means to make some food magically appear with the implication that the food was magically made out of nothing. What the elves do is magically transfer already prepared food from the kitchens below to the dining tables above. Dumbledore (I assume) does the same thing when he transfers tea and cake to Hagrid's cabin. JKR confirmed in an interview that anything magically created from nothing, has no permanence. It soon returns to nothing. So eat food conjured in this sense and you will starve to death. I don't dispute anything you said because technically you were right. I just wanted to point out this subtle distinction in the context of the use of the word 'conjure' in this converstion. Hope that's OK. bboy_mn From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Thu May 1 05:39:53 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 05:39:53 -0000 Subject: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56694 I just wanted to say before I begin my first post that I have enjoyed reading all the theories and comments so far. Can June 21 BE any further away? Now, back to business. I apologize if this subject has been mentioned before, but I did a check on previous messages and couldn't find anything that addressed this specifically. The end of GoF has a beautiful scene between Fudge and Dumbledore where they have "reached the parting of the ways", a scene all lit up with threats and much questioning of various characters' sanities. The stage is all set for a wonderful conflict between Hogwarts and the MoM in the next book, possibly one where Dumbledore has to do some behind-the-scenes work because he's been removed as headmaster (or his power has been severly curtailed). However, does Fudge really have the power to make good on his threats? In GoF (US hardback, page 709): "Now, see here, Dumbledore," he said, waving a threatening finger. "I've given you free rein, always. I've had a lot of respect for you. I might not have agreed with some of your decisions, but I've kept quiet. There aren't many who'd have let you hire werewolves, or keep Hagrid, or decide what to teach your students without reference to the Ministry. But if you're going to work against me --" And GoF (US hardback, page 710): "I don't know what you and your staff are playing at, Dumbledore, but I have heard enough. I have no more to add. I will be in touch with you tomorrow, Dumbledore, to discuss the running of this school. I must return to the Ministry." >From these two passages, Fudge seems to think that he has the right to affect Dumbledore's appointment as headmaster. However, in CoS there is a different scenario when Fudge is in Hagrid's cabin (to take him to Azbakan) and Lucius Malfoy comes in to find Dumbledore: CoS (US hardback, pages 262-263) "Oh, now, see here, Lucius," said Fudge, looking alarmed, "Dumbledore suspended -- no, no -- last thing we want just now --" "The appointment -- or suspension -- of the headmaster is a matter for the governors, Fudge," said Mr. Malfoy smoothly. I see 4 reasons for Fudge's attitude change between CoS and GoF: 1) He's in denial and saying the first thing he can think of to try and shut Dumbledore up 2) He's in possession of some evil mojo and knows he'll be able to influence the governors 3) The rules have changed in the two years between the two scenarios and he CAN make the decision instead of the governors 4) There's a discrepancy in the narrative between the 2 books I feel that he's got some evil mojo going on and he thinks he'll be able to influence the current governors in a decision to curtail Dumbledore's authority or remove him altogether. I think there's just too much going on with Fudge to have his actions simply be the result of loving his office too much and/or being in denial. That reasoning is an effective smokescreen to attempt to justify some actions (taking Hagrid to Azkaban when the Chamber was opened again, for example), but the Dementor kissing Crouch, Jr., is a little too hardcore to be chalked up to keeping the WW from going hysterical. I think he didn't want Crouch, Jr. to talk to anyone else for fear of what he might reveal (no canon, just a gut feeling). GoF ends a few days after the threats and big showdown, and Dumbledore is still in charge. However, during his speech at the Leaving Feast, he clearly states that the MoM didn't want him to tell the students the truth about Cedric's death. The fact that he mentions this shows that Fudge did contact him in the few days between and had been giving him instructions. I have a feeling that during the next book, we'll see more of this type of thing if Dumbledore isn't fired altogether. I wonder how far Dumbledore will go in defying the MoM before Fudge finally snaps? Any thoughts? bowlwoman From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu May 1 06:09:56 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 02:09:56 EDT Subject: (Death of Hedwig) WAS: Re: Death / Is Snape unfair with House Points? Message-ID: <1e2.7f44a53.2be21434@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56695 Maria wrote: > But I just *can't* see Harry angsting over Hedwig's death so much > that it would actually make a difference to Voldemort. I am sure > he'll be brokenhearted. At first. For a while. He'll probably be more > upset than Lavender Brown. But I can't see JKR making a huge point of > it all, unless it ties in with a plot twist. Like, for example, > Hedwig is murdered as she's trying to deliver a letter from Sirius. > I say: For the record...I don't really support the whole 'Hedwig getting killed' theory. I just can't see how it would move the plot forward...unless, as Maria said, there are some sort of repercussions caused by it. It just seems too small scale...and I am not expecting childish pranks (even from Fred and George) in the next book(s). btw-has an attack on the Weasley household been discussed? I just have this picture of Ron, Harry, and (???) coming to The Burrow and seeing the Dark Mark hovering above it....very scary, IMO. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 1 06:12:33 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:12:33 -0000 Subject: Bill's Teacher Ratings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56696 Rhiannon the Raven-Slyth wrote: With regard to her classroom conditions, I really don't see how you can make this claim. First of all, according to some theories of education, Trelawney's setup (the comfortable seats arranged in small groups) is an ideal one for learning. And as for the smoke and incense and whatever else, I believe this is intended to be a necessary condition to help students relax in order to See. Even Harry, who makes up all his Divination homework, has had a true vision in this atmosphere. No, the problem with Trelawney is that she has no ability in her field. Which, though you only mark her down 3 points for this, tells me that she shouldn't be teaching at all. Divination is NOT a class where you can read the textbook and teach or learn only from that-- there has to be talent involved, and the teacher should HAVE that talent. At the very least, an incompetent teacher should be judged as harshly as a cruel one. And, after all, one could make the case that she picks on Harry unfairly-- she predicts his death once a lesson and often tries to force him to "share" more of his thoughts/visions than anyone else. Me: I don't think I agree with you. Seers are obviously very rare, and Dumbledore probably would have as much trouble finding one as he has trouble finding a DADA teacher. No, I think that Trelawney should be teaching how to use all those methods of Divination, so that *if* someone shows talent, they would be able to use it. As for the atmosphere - I think it ties in nicely with Trelawney's general image, and doesn't really do much for the ability to See. If I'm right, and Trelawney is simply supposed to teach methods, then the atmosphere is distracting and points should be taken away for it. Maria, on a posting streak From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 06:17:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:17:38 -0000 Subject: OOP?:Possible "fan" quote broken link? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > First of all, I did miss about a week and a half of HPFGU about the > time people were searching for the "death of a fan" quote, so I > apologise if someone has posted this and I missed it. > > ...big edit... > > Annemehr bboy_mn: Here is the problem with that 'death of a fan' quote. There are lots of articles in which reporters said that she said that, but it's never in a direct quote. It's alway written in the words of the reporter as his interpretation of what some interview said. So, since none of the are direct quotes, it possible that they are all just spreading the rumor. I've read some pretty bad HP/JKR articles where it was so obvious that the reporter was constructing the whole article based on random conversations they overheard, and their best guess as to what they thought HP was about. In other words, the didn't know what the heck they were talking about. It's like their editor said, get me 500 words on Harry Potter by Friday, so they just sat down and dragged 500 words out of their head based on the vague general knowledge they had. So, there are plenty of articles that say 'death of a fan', but not one of them quoting JKR's words directly. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 06:36:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:36:41 -0000 Subject: Question about Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Emily Grace Blackstone" wrote: > > Hi there! > > Kathryn wrote: > Hogwarts Express - In CoS when Snape is reading out the sightings of Ron and Harry in the Flying Ford Anglia he reads one out from Norfolk, ...edited... > > Me: (Emily) > I have very little knowledge of British geography, but it seems to me that ALL of the Hogwarts children can't possibly go to London to catch the Hogwarts Express. So, I imagine that 1) there's more than one train that all leave from various locations and 2) the London train may make stops periodically on the way up. ... seems logical ... that the train would stop after a certain point rather than making kids who live in the north go all the way down to London, ...edited... > Any thoughts? bboy_mn: Well, it does make some logical sense, but there has never been a mention of a train stop to pick up other student, nor a mention of other trains arriving with students in any of books. I think we need to consider how easy it is for wizards to travel. The whole Weasely family is transported about 150 from the Burrow to Diagon Alley with a hand full of Floo Powder, so getting to London is not that big a deal for a wizard family. Another possibility is that in many different cities there are Platform 9-3/4 gateways in the local train station, but when they step through the gateway, the all end up on the same 9-3/4 platform, next to the same Hogwarts Express train in London. Many different gateway in different cities that all converge on the same magical rail platform in London. For anyone who would like to look at a basic color topographic satellite map of Britian with the major railways superimposed on it; check out one of my many website. (The other one has the location of the Dragon Preserve in Romania, and can be found in the off-topics group). Norfolk is on coast of the large penisula to the far east and north of London. http://www.homestead.com/bluemoonmarket/files/hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm Just thought I would add that. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 07:02:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 07:02:29 -0000 Subject: Thin air grows on trees (was: what bothers us about the HP world) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Fox" wrote: > From: "Steve" > > >That which is conjured is not permanent. It was made from nothing and in a short (although greatly veriable) period of time it returns to nothing. > The Fox: > > How do we know this? The only thing that I can recall disappearing after a period of time is leprechaun gold; we don't really know anything about conjuring things, do we? bboy_mn: Yes, we do; JKR specifically said it in at least one interview. Things that are created from nothing (conjured) eventually return to nothing. > The Fox continues: > ...edited...surely there's not a mini-kitchen underneath wherever the boys are when Dumbledore magically presents them with sandwiches and juice. How do we know he didn't conjure those? bboy_mn: Well we don't, but it's safe to assume that they didn't feed 'air' to starving boys. The sandwiches and juice, and the tea and cakes were transferred or teleported from the kitchens to the location where they were eaten. This is a much smaller scale and therefore easier magic than the massive amount of food that the elves have to 'teleport' up to the dinning hall. It isn't documented in the book, but this is what I call a transfer charm; tranfers or transports objects from one location to another. Sort of the magical version of UPS. >The Fox continues: > >And on what basis do we therefore conclude that Molly can't conjure > an au gratin sauce with her wand? > > Fox bboy_mn: We don't conclude that Molly can't conjure an Au Gratin sauce, if fact we see her do what we've assumed is conjuring a white sauce. And it is very likely that that's exactly what she did. It isn't specifically stated, but it seems a reasonable assumption. Although, I must say that an equally reasonable assumption is that she magically created the sauce from ingredients on hand. Personally, for something as heavy, rich, and expensive as a white sauce for a crowd that large, I'm betting on creating it out of nothing. The potatoes were certainly real, and I assume the homemade strawberry ice cream was real too. But then again, we really don't know which items are real and which are not. I speculate that any good magic cook used a blend of actual and conjured items when making a meal, especially when making a very special and/or very big meal. Stop and think of the beauty of this; all the cake, pie, chocolate, and yummy Fortescue's ice cream you can eat, and not a single calorie. I think I'll have seconds. Of course, that just my opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 07:14:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 07:14:06 -0000 Subject: fairness of Quiddich vs Stock Cars vs Motorcycle Racing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56700 I think the best analogy between a Seeker and his broom, is a race car driver and his car, or a motorcycle racer and his cycle. It you have a wimp in an ultra-fast car, it doesn't matter, he's going to be driving around the track like someone's 90 year old grandmother. The fastest car in the world is worthless if it doesn't have a driver who dares to and knows how to push it to it's potential. On the other hand, in a pack of mediocre driver all in mediocre cars, the skilled driver still has the advantage. Take Harry and Draco, Draco has a better broom, but Harry stil beats him because Harry is willing to push his broom harder and faster, and to manuver it with more skill, and Harry is also paying attention to the game. He is a better player than Draco. Draco is fixated on Harry, Harry is fixated on the game; therefore Harry wins. A better broom gives a play an advantage in the areas that a better broom proves useful, but it is not substitute for skill, daring, and determination. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 07:45:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 07:45:08 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > ...edited... A desperate Ministry of Magic turns to YOU and asks > you to take over at Hogwarts. They tell you that you have complete > freedom to make any changes you deem necessary, and funding to do > so. You accept the offer. What do you do? > > ****** > > ...edited... > Basically, Hogwarts would offer a standard 7-year `core block' of > subjects, with additional subjects for those who want them, > and who qualify. ... but also `graduate students' and adults > wanting to upgrade their skills. > bboy_mn: Well, in my mind and in my many posts, I have already solved the higher education problem in the wizard world, so I don't need to go into that again. > I thought about abolishing the House system, but despite its flaws, > it is still a cheap, easy method of controlling the younger > students' behavior ...edited... bboy_mn: I too would keep the house system. I does keep the students in isolated easier to manage blocks of students. There is one thing related to this that I would do though. I would introduce a new wizard's sport that require 6 players and 2 reserves, and the team would all have to to made up of 2 members from each house. That would force the houses to interact with each other more, work together, and form interhouse alliances. I think that would be good for everyone. This wouldn't be to replace Quidditch, it would be in addition to Quidditch. Of course, this new sport would also be played on brooms. Although, a whole new approach to broom design would evolve from it. > Bill continues > > Here is my personal `core block': (of subjects) > > ****** > > Physical Education (5 classes per week) > > Right now, there is no physical training at Hogwarts other than > Quidditch. One class each day would be devoted to fitness exercises > and sports. > bboy_mn: I agree with most of your subject choices, but I think your wrong when you say there is no physical training. Well, maybe there isn't physical training, but there is a lot of excersize; TONS of excersize. Harry lives at the top of the tower. He enters the tower on the seventh floor, so it's safe to assume that his top-of-tower room is on the 10th or 12th floor. This is in a castle, not a commercial 12 story building. The ceilings in the castle are likely to be 20 to 30 feet high. So 12 floors, is closer to an 18 to 20 story building, and those kids walk up and down those stairs all day. Let's not forget that Hogwarts is on something that comes close to being a mountain, so they walk up and down the sloping lawns at least two or three times a day. Plus walking all over that huge castle in general. I'd say they get plenty of excersize. > Bill continues: > > > ****** > > I welcome any comments, and if anybody has their own ideas about > running Hogwarts, please feel free to share them. > > Bill bboy_mn: That was a LONG list of classes; too many, certainly way too many unless many of them are a one semester or one year only class. Most college classes are one semester or one term. You take them and move on to something new. Now many of the more complex classes take more terms. For example, simple calculus is about 3 terms. Applied calculus is minimum 5 terms, and calculus for math and science majors is extend with additional classes making it a total of 7 or 8 terms. Transfiguration, charms, and Potions appear to occur every year for the full year for the entire 7 years of school. So, your going to have to cram a lot more classes into the school day than they do now. That's OK, I thought 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon was a pretty light load anyway. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Thu May 1 06:32:58 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:32:58 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?The_Catalyst_to_Riddle=92s_Motivation_(was:_Riddle's_family)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56702 Richelle Wrote: But that point aside, do we really know that Riddle was an only child? First of all, we don't even know how he knows what he does about his mother. She died when he was born. It is feasibly possible that she had another child with a different father before she had Tom Riddle. An older half brother/sister could have been sent to a separate Muggle orphanage, Would he have wanted to wipe them out too? For not taking him in? So many questions, so few answers. NOW MY POST: I have been pondering links between wizarding families such as this, and for all we know, it could happen. My theory is and has been for a long time that Grandmother Evens (Lilly's mum) had Tom riddle as a child. Her identity could have easily changed if her maiden Name was altered by Grandfather Evens especially if they married young. Too young to keep as a child for fear of being shunned by society, she doesn't tell Tom Riddle Senior or he too, not wanting to face a complicated social confrontation deserted the expectant teenager. Now say, she was 16 and this was 65 odd years ago, this means at 30 Riddle Junior causes the kafuffle with his father, believing his mother dead, thinks nothing of it. 15 years go on and out pops Petunia, being a squib all is frowned upon (her dislike for wizards?) or is she a witch? (In time) Grandmother Evens then has Lilly at the age of 50 (hey wizards live to 150+) and so begins the connection with Potter Voldemort finds out about his mother not dieing He swears revenge like he took on his father and all of his father's family. Thus in killing Grandmother Evens, he finds out about Lilly, she's married to a Potter and thus he's got to go as well. Now here's the crunch. We find out why all along Voldemort wants to kill off Harry: He is Voldemort's Last Living Relative. When he kills Harry, he effectively extracts the ultimate revenge for the crime his parents committed (in his eyes) Hey, it also could mean Harry has a living relative: and Uncle! >From the Key of Kenney who is covinced that we have not seen the end of the "what is Cannon?" Posts... From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Thu May 1 07:13:20 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 00:13:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godparents (Was: Pondering Arabella Figg) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56703 > > > Anyway, all this talk about godparents has stirred up something >that I half registered and buried after reading PoA. That Harry has >*god*parents surely means (in Muggle tradition, obviously), that he >was baptised into the Christian religion at some point. >Kirstini Me: I have to respectfully, disagree. I am not Christian, nor is my goddaughter. She and I are of the same religion, and if something should happen to her parents I would be there to petition for her guardianship. Also, similar to the Christian faith, as her godmother it is my responisbility to educate her in our faith (should something happen to her parents). This is just my experience and I mean no disrespect or offense. Rosebeth _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Thu May 1 06:29:00 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:29:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pondering Arabella Figg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56704 >From: Pat and Jim Gruenke >Something else that's bothered me for a long time! Why is Harry more >obsessed with his father than his mother? Rather Star Wars-ish >there... Me: I think Harry is obsessed with his father for a couple of reasons. First, he's a boy. I know that sounds silly, but father's have a huge impact in the lives of their sons. We learn what kind of adults we should be by watching our parents. If the character of Harry had been a girl, "she" would have been obsessed with her mother for the same reason. Second, Harry is constantly reminded that he looks and behaves a great deal like his father. This probably increases his desire to know about James. > > Rosebeth _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From tiefwald at yahoo.com Thu May 1 06:35:25 2003 From: tiefwald at yahoo.com (Aaron Crowe) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dumbledore question In-Reply-To: <1051761369.7578.41329.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030501063525.35049.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56705 Lisa XX wrote: Has anyone thought about the possibility of Dumbledore being on Voldemorts side? I mean, In GOF, when Harry is looking at the Pensieve, Dumbledore recalls SNape saying that "It's coming back.. Karakoff's tpp... stronger and clearer than ever..." meaning the dark mark (p.517) and Dumbledore merely says " A connection I could have made without assistance, but never mind". COuld this mean that Dumbledore is a double-agent, having the dark mark himself and so being able to see it himself? Could Voldemort NOT be afraid of him, or be afraid of him because he is in CONTROL of Voldemort? Or is Voldemort not afraid because they are on the same side? I just wonder what people think of this idea. The ambiguous state of the characters goodness and evilness is quite blurred, so could it be possible? I look forward to some reactions, if it hasn't already been said! ------------- ME: This idea of DD being on Voldemort's side I'm not sure is substantiated by the plots of the books. Why would DD not have aided LV in his previous attempts at reincarnation? He certainly had ample opportunity to just give LV a bit of aid in PS/SS, PoA and CoF and LV would have been back a lot sooner. As for the smile he gives at learning that LV can now touch Harry, personally I think that is because he knows that LV is now mortal and can be killed for good. I'm sure a lot of that will come to light in OoF since DD mentions to Harry that he will explain everything. I think DD is the only person Voldemort is afraid of because he knows that DD was able to defeat Grimwald and is more powerful. -Fr. Crowe, Ravenclaw Adherent __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From scaryscarlet at aol.com Thu May 1 06:15:20 2003 From: scaryscarlet at aol.com (scaryscarlet at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 02:15:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors question Message-ID: <1e5.7f1f3a0.2be21578@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56706 Maria, maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com writes: > Well, no. Crouch Jr stayed there for around a year (darn, I keep > forgetting stuff, I haven't reread the books in several months). The > Lestranges are still there (13 years). > It had been pointed out before that perhaps the Imperius Curse causes > insanity. > Yup silly me - I knew that and thats what I meant to type ... between Azkaban and imprisonment w/his father ... my bad and no I hadn't been drinking at the time. :::wink::: In GoF when he talks about coming alive and feeling his old self it made me think of what Hagrid said about leaving Azkaban in PoA. The Dementors suck the life and happy out and it seems his father used the Imperius Curse to keep him basically the same, down trodden and weak and complacent, so he wouldn't be a problem. Oh, and I agree about Crouch Jr being blatantly arrogant. I cannot wait to read what the real Mad Eye Moody is like and compare them. I'm sure there will be some wonderful subtle differences. Maria: I really hope we see the Lestranges. They sound amazing. But I don't think they enjoy Azkaban. I couldn't agree more I hope we can all just immerse ourselves in their story, the background intrigue is what keeps me hooked. Also I don't think they enjoyed it either, just maybe it wasn't so bad if they had that one goal in mind of returning to Voldemorts side. Ya know, like if you keep your focus on just one thought, the Dementors might not hold such sway over you. (not that this would diminish their power by much.) Samantha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 08:15:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 08:15:10 -0000 Subject: Pondering Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "GKJPO" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > ...edited... > > > > So who is she? Well it's only a theory and a far fetched one at > > that, but why couldn't she be Sirius Black's maternal grandmother > > (or great aunt or whatever). > > > Kristen: > > This I don't agree with. If she was Sirius's maternal grandmother > and had a connection to Sirius, than I don't believe DD would have > put her in charge of watching over Harry. bboy_mn: Why not? Just because Sirius is a criminal, that doesn't mean that every single person related to him is automatically a crook. Being a grandmother in the wizard world, probably means being over 100 years old, so during her long life she could have more than proved herself a trusted and reliable friend to Dumbledore and may others. The actions of someone two generations down on her family tree of IN-LAWS, is no reflection on her. Being the maternal grandmother, she is not even a Black family member. So you don't buy Sirius's maternal grandmother, how about Remus's maternal grandmother? ...or Dumbledore's cousin? ...or McGonagall's half-sister? ...or...whatever? Personally, I'm sticking with Black's maternal grandmother. > Kriten: > > ...edited... > > On the other hand, I still love your scenario of Harry finding > Sirius and Lupin at Mrs. Figg's house. > > Kristen bboy_mn: Definitely be a bit of a shock for poor old Harry. I do like that scenerio, but I think it would be cooler for Harry to walk into Defense Against Dark Art, and find his babysitter standing at the front of the room. It would be especially nice if she said something that embarassed Harry. Like how she used to change his diaper (nappies) and give him a bath. Or suddenly start rattling on about her cats to Harry as he turn red and slowly slinked over to his seat. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 1 08:54:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 08:54:38 -0000 Subject: Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: >...the Potters had switched their Secret-Keeper at the last minute... > we were led to assume that they did this because Sirius was an easy > target for Voldemort ...edited... Why would the Potters keep > something so big a secret from him unless they suspected that he was > not as good as he seemed? Why didn't they use him as their secret > keeper? I wonder whether the switch was because of the threat of > Voldemort or Dumbledore. Sorry if this has been discussed already. > I'd love to hear your responses anyway. > > greatlit2003, bboy_mn: Not that Sirius was an easy target, but that he was the most obvious target. Sirius was planning to get lost; presummably move to Africa, Asia, Australia, or the Americas, far from Voldemort reach and influence. Sirius has already (after the fact) proven that he is very good at hiding himself. If they couldn't find Sirius, then they couldn't get the secret from him. But Sirius thought he would throw an additional monkey wrench into the works by acting as a decoy. Since Sirius was the most obvious person for the Secret Keeper, he actually hid the secret right under everyone's nose in a place that they would least expect it and be least likely to look for it. That way Voldemort would spend all his time looking for Sirius, and even if he found him, he couldn't get the secret from him because Sirius doesn't have it. Peter was also suppose to be in hiding. Sirius went to the place where Peter was suppose to be hiding to check on him, and when Peter wasn't there, Sirius was sure something had gone wrong. So, he went straight to the Potters to warn them. Which seems a little inconsistent, since he seemed to know the secret even though he wasn't the secret keeper. But the reality of the Secret Keeper isn't that people don't know where the Potter's are because Sirius and Dumbledore DO seem to know. The key is that if you come to the place where they are hiding, you won't be able to find them there. Remember Flintwick said Voldemort could be peeking in the window of the Potter's house and he still wouldn't be able to find them. They are magically hidden. So why not Dumbledore are the Secret Keeper? Because Dumbledore was a high profile person at the forefront of the war against Voldemort, he wouldn't have been able to go into hiding and continue with his role in the war. Plus, in his high profile role, and in his active role in the war, he was a person at risk. I would assume that if the Secret Keeper dies, the spell is broken. It was just too impractical for Dumbledore to do this. It was a wonderful gesture on his part, but still not very practical. Sirius on the other hand was probably involved in the war, but he wasn't a key figure or a leader in the war. It would have been easy and not much of a loss for him to disappear. Just a thought. bboy_mn From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Thu May 1 09:40:19 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:40:19 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501094019.1224.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56709 --- mongo62aa wrote: --------------------------------- So Voldemort had been defeated, and celebrations are underway. Tragically, Albus Dumbledore chokes to death on a Lemon Drop during the festivities. The Deputy Headmistress, Prof. McGonnagall, has run off to the South Pacific with Madam Hooch. A desperate Ministry of Magic turns to YOU and asks you to take over at Hogwarts. They tell you that you have complete freedom to make any changes you deem necessary, and funding to do so. You accept the offer. What do you do? ****** Vinnia: Wow, Hogwarts would definitely change if you take over! ;) However, we have to remember that these kids are magical, not muggles. Why do they have to learn science, when most principles of science wouldn't hold in their world? Waste of time, IMHO. No need for geography either...I don't think you have to know much geography to be able to apparate. Muggle history and literature are probably covered in Muggle studies. And...do we have more hours on PE than charms? You're joking, right? This is a magic school! And I agree with bboy_mn, the students are getting plenty of exercises. When I was at school, I wished that I could take something else instead of PE. 5 hours of PE would drive Hermione crazy (and the ravenclaws). But they don't mind having to walk such a long distance between classes, do they? Now, here is what I'd like to do if I were given the chance to run Hogwarts. I'll keep all the current subjects, well perhaps replacing Trelawney with someone more qualified, if there is any. We know that students can take 3 electives and still have normal timetable (Hermione takes Ancient Runes, arithmancy, and COMC). I will have some electives available to first and second years student. Introduction to the magical world This is a compulsary subject for all first year muggle-born students, and students who like Harry, had been brought up in muggle world. Other students may take this subject if they wish, of course. Topics studied : - Magical objects (portkey, invisibility cloak, time-turner) - Magical way of life in general (eg. using floo powder) - Who's who in the current magical world (like, Fudge is the minister of magic, etc) - Magical beings not covered in COMC (like giants and veela) In addition, I think I will pair each muggle born student with a magical family, maybe to spend a week during summer with this family? Magical first aid (and healing) This is available to 3rd year and above. Lessons on how to treat injuries, magically. Foreign language Latin and french Apparition lessons Exclusive elective for seventh year (better to have supervision while learning this) I will also include VW I in the history of magic. Well, that's all I can think of for now. Not that I'll ever have the chance to constitute these changes! Vinnia http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From rane_ab at hotmail.com Thu May 1 10:26:41 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 10:26:41 -0000 Subject: Why DD lets Snape be a bastard (WAS Teachers and fairness) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > I believe JKR > is going to have Ron, Harry & ESPECIALLY Hermione get past this sort > of Snape inflicted abuse triumphantly. What I don't understand is, if > nothing ever gets past Dumbledore, and he knows all, then WHY is he > allowing this to continue? > It seems DD steps back and lets a lot of things happen. Like, say, Lockhart. Who is, quite possibly, a danger to the children. (Thank god for Hermione's knowledge of spells when it came to capturing the pixies. Of course, they're not *really* dangerous creatures, but they were obviously quite capable of wreacking havoc. And what if Lockart had let lose more dangerous creatures? After all, he seems to have quite a high opinion of himself (see also the Duelling Club)). It has been suggested before that Hagrid may well be a danger to the students (even if it's not his intention). I think that DD is trying to let the children get used to the real world. Now that doesn't sound very clear. Let me try to explain that better. What I mean is, in real life (I mean life outside of Hogwarts by in the WW), there people like Lockhart and Snape exist, too. And the students are going to have to learn to deal with them. What would happen if they all got wrapped in only fair, good, and/or nice teachers, and then were to step out of school into the real world to find all people really aren't like that? They'd be far too trusting of people, wouldn't expect any nastiness or cunning from others, and get hit by it when they least expect it. Of course, they can learn this kind of thing from the other - less kind - students. However, having less than perfect teachers is still a good lesson in not necessarily trusting or depending on people who are older or more experienced. Experiencing Snape makes the students quite aware some people are willing to abuse of their power. People in a trusting position don't necessarily do the right things - nor are they necessarily concerned with another's well-being. So, IMO, DD is just trying to 'prepare' (if passively) the students for the real world - in all its goodness and evilness, fairness and unfairness. Letting Snape act the way he does is like warning the students: well, life really isn't always fair. And I'm sure he'd stop Snape from doing anything *too* nasty, like say flunking someone or physically harming them (Snape did threaten to poison the students at some point, but we're really not clear on whether he would actually have done so - I don't he would have unless he'd have a correct antidote of his own on hand to give it to them if necessary - I think he was just enjoying scaring everyone). He may have stopped Snape from failing Harry at some point (though it has already been discussed we cannot be sure of that). And I think he would stop Snape from doing any other harm of that kind. I'm not arguing here whether I think DD's right to let Snape insult the students (it's already been discussed at great length that some people think Snape's kind of behaviour would be an incentive for children to learn better, whilst others think it will merely result in emotional damage), I'm just saying I think this is why he lets them. Cheerful greetings, Rane, who is typing all this very fast and without much thinking, and hopes it is even remotely logical and understandable. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu May 1 10:46:26 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 10:46:26 -0000 Subject: Stan Shunpike and class distinction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "imamommy at s..." wrote: > Do all British wizarding children go to Hogwarts? We don't know, but JKR has said that Hogwarts is the only school in the UK in interview. > > What about Stan Shunpike? If he's 18 or 19 in PoA, mightn't he > have been there for Harry's first year (if he went)? If Hogwarts follows UK practice, it is customary for many children to leave school at 16. The implication from OWLS is that they do - that's what public exams at 16 are *for* in the UK. They provide evidence that children who leave school early have studied particular subjects to an agreed level. So Stan might well have attended Hogwarts, but left at 16. In which case he'd have left before Harry arrived. >Are there major class distinctions > in the WW? I think the class/race distinction we are being presented with is pure-blood/half-blood/muggle-born. Are there some children whose families can't afford > Hogwarts, and where do they go? If Colin the milkman's son can afford to go, it looks like everyone who is qualified to go, goes. Where Squibs are educated is another matter. I don't think they're given any provision at all - which would be another reason why Filch hates the Hogwarts students so much. They're getting an education he never had a chance to have. >Do all British children wear > uniforms at school or is that just at elite boarding schools? *Almost* all British children wear uniforms at school. In PS/SS Ch. 3, Petunia is dyeing a uniform for Harry to wear at Stonewall High, which sounds like a bog standard state secondary school. State schools have a very cheap uniform, costing about 30 GBP per child, new. It's usually some variation on Grey/blue/green/red pullover or sweatshirt, black/grey trousers or skirt and a white/grey/blue shirt. It's a sample of the Dursley's unwillingness to spend money on Harry that they won't buy him the standard Grey pullover, white shirt, grey trousers uniform, or aren't even prepared to pick up a second hand uniform. Honestly, the standard school uniform is sold at Woolworths, or ASDA/Walmart, and if you can't afford it, you can usually pick up second hand items at jumble sales. How do > the Creeveys support two students on a milkman's wages? Is there > a scholarship program? We don't know, but the Creeveys and the Weasley's support the idea that there is a scholarship system for those who can't afford fees. > Does anyone else think of this stuff? > imamommy > (who wishes someone would give her a Pensieve for Mother's Day) Yup ;-) Pip!Squeak (aka Pip) From rane_ab at hotmail.com Thu May 1 11:20:02 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 11:20:02 -0000 Subject: Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Hi everyone..I noticed something unusual in PoA...Sirius said that > the Potters had switched their Secret-Keeper at the last minute...we > were led to assume that they did this because Sirius was an easy > target for Voldemort (it was well known that he was close to > James)...but, Dumbledore later told Hermione and Harry that he had > testified to the Ministry that Black had been the Potters' Secret > Keeper (during that frantic conversation in the hospital wing). > Dumbledore DID NOT KNOW about the switch. Why would the Potters keep > something so big a secret from him unless they suspected that he was > not as good as he seemed? Why didn't they use him as their secret > keeper? I wonder whether the switch was because of the threat of > Voldemort or Dumbledore. Sorry if this has been discussed already. > I'd love to hear your responses anyway. > As to DD not knowing about Peter being the secret-keeper - what's the point in getting a Secret Keeper if you're going to tell everybody who it is? Makes the person in question an "easy target" indeed. I'd say it was safest for as little people as possible to know who the Secret Keeper is. After all, even if, as Steve mentioned, LV can't "beat" or whatever the secret itself out of Sirius, he *could* make Sirius admit Peter was the Secret Keeper, couldn't he? Which would be making it a lot easier on LV. So, really, it's best if as little people as possible know who is the actual Secret Keeper. So, even if it is unlikely that LV would get his hands on Dumbledore, well, why take the risk? Also, we don't know just how close DD and the Potters were. Of course, DD suggested being a Secret Keeper himself, but, well, I think he'd do that for everyone. So maybe the Potters *didn't* know DD that well, and simply didn't feel the need to tell him (and burden him with yet another secret). This is a bit lame, I know. Sth just hit me, writing this. Apparently, the Secret Keeper can't be inside the actual "Secret place". Why could't Sirius hide out with the Potters? Better yet, why not make Lilly or James their own Secret Keepers? Their secret would surely be safe then! This strikes me as a bit weird. Though it's probably been discussed before (I can't imagine any new ideas are coming forth on this forum imagining how much has already been discussed! But I'm supposing I'm not the only one relatively new here, and who hasn't read about 95% of the msgs). Well, just a bit of my (indeed humble) opinion. Rane. From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 12:53:49 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 12:53:49 -0000 Subject: Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Hi everyone..I noticed something unusual in PoA...Sirius said that > the Potters had switched their Secret-Keeper at the last minute...we > were led to assume that they did this because Sirius was an easy > target for Voldemort (it was well known that he was close to > James)...but, Dumbledore later told Hermione and Harry that he had > testified to the Ministry that Black had been the Potters' Secret > Keeper (during that frantic conversation in the hospital wing). > Dumbledore DID NOT KNOW about the switch. Why would the Potters keep > something so big a secret from him unless they suspected that he was > not as good as he seemed? Why didn't they use him as their secret > keeper? I wonder whether the switch was because of the threat of > Voldemort or Dumbledore. Sorry if this has been discussed already. > I'd love to hear your responses anyway. Me: Actually, something bothers me more than this about the whole Secret Keeper situation, beyond just who and who wasn't the Secret Keeper. The people who knew about the switch of Secret Keeper were: (1) James Potter (2) Lily Potter (3) Peter Pettigrew (4) Sirius Black (5) Voldemort (through Pettirgrew) and... (6) Whoever cast the Fidelius Charm I think I've always just intuitively assumed that Lily cast the charm... you know, Ollivander telling Harry how her wand was great for Charm work. But then, reading your post, I began to remember something else. Flitwick, in the scene in PoA where the Trio overhear about the seeming betrayal of Black... Flitwick, the Charms professor, explaining that the Fidelius Charm is an IMMENSELY complicated spell (or words to that effect). Which raises two problems with the idea of Lily doing the Charm: (1) Was Lily good enough at Charms to perform this spell? If it's that complicated, and she was good enough at charms for Ollivander to mention it, it would seem that only she of #1-4 above could have done it. (2) Can a person who is the subject of the Secret contained by the Fidelius Charm (in this case, Lily) actually cast the Charm anyway? My thought is that these points suggest Lily, the only one of the four who would have been able to cast the charm, did not. So #6 is a different person. Say, Flitwick, or maybe Lupin or Snape... Whoever #6 was, why didn't that person TELL Dumbledore that the Secret Keeper was switched? Do we have another mole at Hogwarts in the form of Professor Flitwick? Did the Potters, or #6, have some reason to believe Dumbledore should not be entrusted with this information when he clearly knew the charm was being cast? Interesting thought... Dumbledore was #6, but somehow Pettigrew casts a small Memory charm on him after the spell was cast and he forgets that Black and Pettigrew switched, so Dumbledore's remaining memory was of Black as Secret Keeper. Interesting ideas to ponder... aja_1991 From suzchiles at pobox.com Thu May 1 13:33:58 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 06:33:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stan Shunpike and class distinction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56714 Pip said: > If Hogwarts follows UK practice, it is customary for many children > to leave school at 16. The implication from OWLS is that they do - > that's what public exams at 16 are *for* in the UK. They provide > evidence that children who leave school early have studied > particular subjects to an agreed level. I don't believe there is any evidence whatsoever that Hogwart's students leave school after taking their OWLS. While it's obvious that JKR used OWLS and NEWTS to mimic the standard tests in the UK, nothing has ever been mentioned in canon that students would leave Hogwarts until the end of their seventh year. Suzanne From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu May 1 14:18:20 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 14:18:20 -0000 Subject: Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aja_1991" > Actually, something bothers me more than this about the whole Secret > Keeper situation, beyond just who and who wasn't the Secret Keeper. > > The people who knew about the switch of Secret Keeper were: > (1) James Potter > (2) Lily Potter > (3) Peter Pettigrew > (4) Sirius Black > (5) Voldemort (through Pettirgrew) > and... > (6) Whoever cast the Fidelius Charm > > I think I've always just intuitively assumed that Lily cast the > charm... you know, Ollivander telling Harry how her wand was great > for Charm work. > > But then, reading your post, I began to remember something else. > Flitwick, in the scene in PoA where the Trio overhear about the > seeming betrayal of Black... Flitwick, the Charms professor, > explaining that the Fidelius Charm is an IMMENSELY complicated spell > (or words to that effect). Which raises two problems with the idea > of Lily doing the Charm: > > (1) Was Lily good enough at Charms to perform this spell? If it's > that complicated, and she was good enough at charms for Ollivander to > mention it, it would seem that only she of #1-4 above could have done > it. > (2) Can a person who is the subject of the Secret contained by the > Fidelius Charm (in this case, Lily) actually cast the Charm anyway? > > My thought is that these points suggest Lily, the only one of the > four who would have been able to cast the charm, did not. So #6 is a > different person. Say, Flitwick, or maybe Lupin or Snape... I'm not convinced you can say definitely that Lily did not cast the charm. The question of whether the charm's subject can also cast it is unknown. However, people can cast charms on themselves - Cedric used the Bubble-Head charm on himself in the 2nd Task. Maybe only a truly gifted Charms practitioner would be able to cast a difficult Charm such as Fidelius on themselves. Was Lily that good? We don't know definitively, so we can't rule her out. Somehow, the thought that only the original four (James, Lily, Peter and Sirius) knew about the switch makes me feel more comfortable with my interpretation of the story. Sirius never mentions anyone else knowing about the Switch. It doesn't feel right to think that there was another person involved, because that, to me, dilutes the impact of Peter's treachery. The waters get muddied if, not only was Peter a traitor, but the potential #6 also was evil enough to let Sirius take the fall for what happened. Of course, I suppose another possibility is that #6 was not on Voldemort's side, and instead, was conveniently murdered along with the Potters to hide what s/he knew about the switch. Nah, that still doesn't work for me - Sirius had the perfect opportunity to blame Peter for that person's death, too, in the Shrieking Shack scene, but doesn't mention it. For now, I'll go with the belief that Lily was indeed a powerful enough witch to be the charm caster. Marianne From drdara at yahoo.com Thu May 1 14:31:32 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stan Shunpike and class distinction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501143132.36432.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56716 The only mention that you pay a fee to attend Hogwarts in when Uncle Vernon says he won't pay some crackpot fool to teach him magic, and in part that was in response to the school list. My opinion is that you don't pay tuition to Hogwarts. That the only thing you pay for are school supplies ie uniform, books, supplies like quills, parchment and potions stuff. Again this is just a thought, but it would make sense as to why the Weasleys can afford to go there and why the Creevey's can go there. Maybe Hogwarts depends on rich alums to make nice contributions to help keep the school running. Danielle, who is desparately waiting for june 21st too. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rane_ab at hotmail.com Thu May 1 12:55:06 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 12:55:06 -0000 Subject: Pondering Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: >> > Definitely be a bit of a shock for poor old Harry. I do like that > scenerio, but I think it would be cooler for Harry to walk into > Defense Against Dark Art, and find his babysitter standing at the > front of the room. It would be especially nice if she said something > that embarassed Harry. Like how she used to change his diaper > (nappies) and give him a bath. Or suddenly start rattling on about her > cats to Harry as he turn red and slowly slinked over to his seat. > I definitely like that scenario! Seems more realistic, too, especially as the new DADA teacher is supposed to be a woman (right?). It would be so funny! It certainly seems like sth JK might do (though I'm not so sure she'd go as far as mentioning his diapers - still, quite funny). Already snickering at the thought, Rane. From rane_ab at hotmail.com Thu May 1 13:46:17 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 13:46:17 -0000 Subject: Moody/Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56718 Just sth that struck me as a little uncharacteristical... Somewhere in GoF (beginning of school year), it is said that Snape avoids looking Moody in the eye (or sth like that). Now, obviously, Moody would know about Snape's DE past (we know he does as he says so in one of the scenes in the pensieve). Now, it would seem logical that Snape wasn't looking at Moody because he felt embarassed. But that just seems so unlike Snape. I was just rereading GoF, and realised I had forgotten just what a bastard Snape is, exactly - or, actually, more accurately, I had forgotten what a *self- confident* bastard he is. A few moments of weakness and I go thinking there's some insecure little being underneath all those layers of bitterness... *laughs at herself* Now, really... But, rereading, I do find him *very* self-confident, and perfectly capable of holding his own - and I just can't imagine him being embarassed - about anything, including his DE past. Especially toward Moody, whom he seems to acutely dislike. I would think he would look at Moody with the same amount of disdain Moody seems to bestow upon him. Unless, of course, he's afraid Moody would do to him what he did to Lupin (reveal that Snape was a DE - and there goes the entire discussion of it being common knowledge Snape was a DE-spy or not again...). Which I personally find a rather amusing idea (what? I think being sadistic to a sadist is fair game!), Snape being suddenly on the other side of that little game. Let's face it, Moody's not exactly the most stable at Hogwarts, is he (or he doesn't seem to be, at least.)? That's the only reason I can come up with to explain why Snape avoids looking Moody in the eye. Unless he's frightened, after all, that Moody might convince DD he's untrustworthy? I'm not sure about that. Moody seems to have some control over Snape, though. Even if Snape contends that Moody has no authority over him (in 'An Eye and an Egg' - or was that title the other way around?), in the end, with a few well-placed remarks, Moody does get Snape to get away. So Snape seems at least mildly disturbed by the idea that Moody might tell DD about his mind jumping immediately to HP. It also strikes me that, despite Snape saying DD trusts him fully and doesn't believe DD ordered Moody to search his office, he apparently *does* let Moody search his office. Why not go straight to Dumbledore and demand Moody be kept out of his office? His statement that he doesn't *believe* DD ordered Moody to do so indicates that he didn't ask DD whether he did or not - is this some sense of insecurity on Snape's behalf, as to whether DD trusts him or not? *grins* (yes, I love looking for weaknesses in people, especially if they're horrible to start with) After all, if he were sure, he wouldn't have to let Moody into his office, and if he weren't, why not ask? But I'm diverging here. I was speaking of Moody and Snape. So maybe Snape does believe DD trusts him, but Moody has some power over him... Like maybe revealing his past as I just mentioned (that's if that's not already public knowledge, of course), or maybe sth else...? But what else, then? Just wondering... Once more, don't shoot me if this has already been discussed at length! *keeps her head down* *lifts head back up because it's rather difficult typing *without* seeing the screen* Rane, who does love Snape very much, and who's been on this site for over four hours now, and *desperately* needs to get some work done. From suzie_t666 at hotmail.com Thu May 1 14:29:31 2003 From: suzie_t666 at hotmail.com (Paul Smith, unfortunately.) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 14:29:31 -0000 Subject: Evil owls! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56719 Hey everyone, How many other people have noticed that the only times eagle owls appear in the books are with or connected to Dark (or potentially Dark) wizards? The only person I can say for sure who has one is Draco Malfoy, as it's seen bringing him sweets from home. The only other sighting of one I can remember is when Harry can see Hagrid digging up earth near his cabin to bury 100 gold coins in preparation for the COMC lesson with the Nifflers in GOF. The eagle owl "flew through the coil of smoke rising from Hagrid's chimney; it soared towards the castle, around the Owlery and out of sight". A considerable time later, Moody!Crouch Jr. is quick on the scene when his father makes it to Hogwarts and Crouch Jr. later confesses to having received word that his father had escaped. My idea is that the eagle owl that Harry saw from the Owlery was the one from Voldemort notifying Moody!Crouch Jr. of Crouch Sr's escape. I know the timeframe involved is highly questionable, as not many people on here will able to say certainly how long it takes to walk to Scotland from wherever the Crouches lived. Anyway, judging from the book I'd say Crouch Sr's journey took him at least over a fortnight to complete, and he was probably hampered considerably by the fact that he kept slipping back into a trance, seen by Harry and Krum when he arrived. As much as it is unlikely, I'd say it is totally feasible for that eagle owl to have been sent on Voldemort's orders. As I, like many others, have overlooked small details like this in the past, I'll keep it in mind when I'm reading OOP to be extremely suspicious of any eagle owls that are unaccounted for. Anyone who has seen another eagle owl please let me know, and does anyone see sense in my fears, or even agree with them? Ta, Suze. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 1 13:06:56 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 06:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501130656.87607.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56720 --- mongo62aa wrote: > So Voldemort had been defeated, and > celebrations are underway. > Tragically, Albus Dumbledore chokes to death on > a Lemon Drop during > the festivities. The Deputy Headmistress, > Prof. McGonnagall, has run > off to the South Pacific with Madam Hooch. A > desperate Ministry of > Magic turns to YOU and asks you to take over at > Hogwarts. They tell > you that you have complete freedom to make any > changes you deem > necessary, and funding to do so. You accept > the offer. What do you > do? > Me: Well, I'll take a stab that this and then wait for the flaming arrows. LOL The first thing I would do is hire more teachers. The second thing I would do is to cut down on the number of items the students are required to provide for themselves. Just as there are school brooms, there should be school cauldrons, books, potion supplies, dragon hide gloves, etc. Students would be welcome to purchase their own should they choose, but if they don't want to or can't, these things would be supplied for the students. I keep thinking that there was no reason the Weasleys needed to buy Lockhart's books for all their kids. I also would institute a graduate program for those who wished to pursue areas where they would require advanced studies. Granted, those classes may not be on campus (such as Charlie Weasley going to study dragons) but the availability would be there. I would also consider instituting an exchange student program during the 6th year but I haven't really developed that yet. I do think it would help increase the international ties. This is based on 35 hours per week. Teachers can decide whether they want separate classes or wish to combine two classes into a lab - such as Double Potions, Double Transfiguration, Double DADA, etc. Year 1: Transfiguration 1 4 Potions 1 3 Charms 1 4 Magic History 3 DADA 3 Foreign Lang. - Latin 1 3 Herbology 2 Astronomy 1 Social Studies 1 Civics - Own 1 English Grammar 1 Intro to Mug/Wiz World 1 Applied Math 1 Elective/Study Hall 3 Team Sports 2 House Sports 2 Year 2: Transfiguration 2 4 Potions 2 4 Charms 2 3 Magic History 3 DADA 3 Foreign Lang. - Latin 2 3 Herbology 2 Astronomy 1 Social Studies 1 Civics - Foreign 1 Wizard Literature 1 Muggle History 1 Introduction to the Arts 1 Elective/Study Hall 3 Team Sports 2 House Sports 2 Year 3: Transfiguration 3 3 Potions 3 3 Charms 3 3 Magic History 3 DADA 3 Foreign Lang. - elective 3 Herbology 2 Astronomy 1 Social Studies 1 Muggle Literature 1 Wizard Arts 1 Elective 4 Elective/Study Hall 3 Team Sports 2 House Sports 2 Year 4: Transfiguration 4 3 Potions 4 3 Charms 4 3 Magic History 3 DADA 3 Foreign Lang. - elective 3 Herbology 2 Astronomy 1 Social Studies 1 Art Elective 1 Muggle Arts 1 Elective 4 Elective/Study Hall 3 Team Sports 2 House Sports 2 Year 5: Transfiguration 5 3 Potions 5 3 Charms 5 3 Magic History 3 DADA 3 Foreign Lang. - elective 3 Herbology 2 Professions 1 Social Studies 1 Readiness for WW 1 Trades/Professions 1 Elective 4 Elective/Study Hall 3 Team Sports 2 House Sports 2 OWLS are taken, students decide whether to continue education or go out into WW Year 6: Transfiguration 6 3 Potions 6 3 Charms 6 3 Professional Elective 3 DADA 3 Foreign Lang. - elective 3 Herbology 2 Professional Interaction 1 First Aid 1 Elective 6 Elective/Study Hall 3 Team Sports 2 House Sports 2 Year 7: Transfiguration 7 3 Potions 7 3 Charms 7 3 Professional Elective 3 DADA 3 Foreign Lang. - elective 3 Herbology 2 Politics/Current Events 1 WW Readiness/Apparation 1 Elective 5 Elective/Study Hall 3 Muggle Skills 1 Team Sports 2 House Sports 2 NEWTS are taken. Intro to the Muggle/Wizard World would encompass many things. Students can take tests at the beginning to determine which areas they need to study or need more study in. For example, students can take a test on flying and if they pass, they don't need to take that section of the class while students who can use a telephone would obviously be able to skip that kind of thing. It would probably end up being divided into Muggle/raised in Muggle world and those who grew up in the WW but there may also be some cross-over based on the individual student. Obviously someone like Neville would cross-over on something like flying. Applied Math would be learning the types of math necessary for the WW. As the monetary system is different, I would assume things such as measurements may be different as well. I also think this is a good place to teach basic logic skills. Social Studies would encompass a variety of subjects: Geography, Other Cultures, Sociology, Psychology, Ethics etc. It's basically a catchall category for those subjects that may not need an entire year but the students do need. Civics is basic government studies. The first year the students would learn how their own Ministry of Magic worked and what types of departments there are and the second year they would gain an understanding how the Ministry of Magic may or would differ in other parts of the world. I do believe there should be a basic Grammar/English class just to make sure that the kids can write proper sentences, spell and have basic comprehension skills. As for Foreign Language, years 1 and 2 would be Latin but after that the students can decide what other languages they would like to learn, whether it be French, Spanish or even Mermish or Gobbledygook. Or, they may choose to continue and take advanced Latin. Electives CoMC, Divination, Arithmancy, Runes, various Arts, Foreign Language, Home Ec, Muggles Studies, classes to do with specific professions, the possiblities are endless and could change depending on staff and student suggestions. Team/House Sports don't necessarily have to be physical sports but would encompass a variety of areas such as a physical sport, dueling club, debating club, chess club, ect. This way the kids can meet and interact with others outside their own class and house. I also like the idea that the older students could end up mentoring the younger ones. Trades/Professions would be a class where the students would learn just what type of work was available to them and give them a chance to start making their choices on their future lives. Readiness for WW in year 5 would really be a refresher course in a lot of areas but would also prepare those students who aren't planning to continue their education to start job hunting, house hunting, refresher course on things Muggle, etc. In year 7, it would help the students with the tools they need to enter their chosen professions as well as those things students need or want to learn such as Apparition to prepare them to take their tests. In year 6 and 7 the students start learning about their chosen profession. This gives them some time to change their minds if they find it really isn't what they thought they'd want to do. Professional Interaction would teach management skills as well as how to deal with other professions which they may need to interact with in their jobs. Muggle Skills in year 7 would be something such as learning to drive a car, how to dress like a Muggle, how to handle Muggle money, use the Underground, etc. I think the rest of the course are self-explanatory. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 15:21:56 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody/Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501152156.51654.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56721 Rane wrote: Just sth that struck me as a little uncharacteristical... Somewhere in GoF (beginning of school year), it is said that Snape avoids looking Moody in the eye (or sth like that). Now, obviously, Moody would know about Snape's DE past (we know he does as he says so in one of the scenes in the pensieve). Now, it would seem logical that Snape wasn't looking at Moody because he felt embarassed. But that just seems so unlike Snape. But, rereading, I do find him *very* self-confident, and perfectly capable of holding his own - and I just can't imagine him being embarassed - about anything, including his DE past. Especially toward Moody, whom he seems to acutely dislike. I would think he would look at Moody with the same amount of disdain Moody seems to bestow upon him. Me. I wonder how self-confident he is around somebody like Evil-Eye Moody. I mean, at one time Moody was his direct (and scary) enemy who was a major threat to any and all DE's. Snape couldn't have forgotten that and Moody's opinion of Snape probably hasn't changed much in the ensuing time. (We don't know that for sure as we've never actually met the real Moody yet). And Moody isn't totally stable! So, Snape's avoidance of eye contact with moody may simply be an unintentional reflex action which Snape himself isn't totally aware of because deep inside, he IS scared of Moody! Another possibility, which is hard to imagine but actually quite possible is that Snape, while still not what one would ever call a nice guy is in fact embarrased and even ashamed of his DE past. If he's "seen the light", then like anybody else in such circumstances he would find his past activities embracing such evil to be shameful. Of course he's so closed and tight that he would never outwardly show it. But maybe his avoidance of Moody's glaze is a small manifistation of his deep emotions over his own past. Just a possibility. After 4 books we really don't know enough about Snape's inner-workings to possibly know for sure. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Thu May 1 16:08:52 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:08:52 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20030501130656.87607.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: Me: Clearly, a lot of thought has gone into this schedule. I have to say that I like it quite a bit. You are right that more Professors are needed. Here are the total class hours per week of the top ten subjects: 1: Transfiguration 23 hours (92 single, 46 double) T2: Charms 22 hours (88 single, 44 double) T2: Potions 22 hours (88 single, 44 double) T4: DADA 21 hours (84 single, 42 double) T4: Foreign Lang. ? Latin 21 hours (84 single, 42 double) T6: Foreign Lang. ? elective 15 hours (60 single, 30 double) T6: Magic History 15 hours (60 single, 30 double) T8: Herbology 14 hours (56 single, 28 double) T8: House Sports 14 hours (56 single, 28 double, 14 quadruple) T8: Team Sports 14 hours (56 single, 28 double, 14 quadruple) Single being each House by itself, double being two Houses combined, and quadruple being all four houses combined. I have Latin down for 21 hours rather than 6, because some students will surely take it for all 7 years. Since there are only 35 teaching hours per week, then at least five subjects need a second Professor, even with double classes. Add in the time spent grading essays, preparing lessons, etc. and that number may rise. Bill From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 16:16:59 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501161659.90970.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56723 Two things I would do.... 1. Most importantly is get rid of the black robes and change the school colors to pink. Or maybe some nice pastels. 2. Tie the Slytherines to the Hogs Express Track at the end of the term. That would be a fun activity to look forward to. Damn I'd make a good Headmaster! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu May 1 16:30:21 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:30:21 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Bill's Teacher Ratings References: Message-ID: <3EB14B9D.000001.99495@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56724 Bill (responding): What I meant by being unfair is that she is inconsistent with her points given vs. taken. In PS, when Harry and Ron save Hermione's life by defeating a mountain troll, they are given a mere 5 points each. But when Harry, Hermione, and Neville are later caught out of their dormitory at night, they have 50 points each deducted. So it seems that being out of bounds at night is ten times more important than saving a fellow student's life Now Me - Ron and Harry were *incredibly* lucky not to have been killed along with Hermione when they tackled the troll themselves - not to mention Hermione wouldn't have been trapped in a room with it if they hadn;t locked it in - although McGonagall doesn't know that last bit. Frankly I think she was ridiculously generous to give them points at all. I m sure she only did it because she felt that their experience was punishment enough (which it wasnt considering it does nothing to stop them from carrying on with their risky behaviour). What they should have dones when they found out Hermione was missing was tell Percy (as the prefect in charge) and get him to get some staff help - or at least let the more experience prefects try and deal with it. If I were mcGonagall I'd have been *taking* points after the troll incident not handing them out - and great handfuls of points at that. But then I'm one of those people who wouldn't have handed out points to them for going after the PS at the end either - would have given Neville the points though. K From luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 16:15:35 2003 From: luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com (luv_lotr2) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:15:35 -0000 Subject: Why DD lets Snape be [an insufferable git] :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56725 Rane: <<>> I too agree with you. We must remember, that Snape is the headmaster of Slytherin. Can you imagine if the headmaster of that house was McGonagall? I guess even those that the sorting hat places in Slytherin need a "role model", lol. As you stated DD knows what the "real" wizarding world is like. And even though Snape may have the desire to do some dark magic of his own, and take care of those he dislikes, he still has not crossed that line as of yet! There are those in the world who are manipulating, unkind, deceiving and down-right mean! But we still need to learn how to "deal" with those types of personalitites. Sorry to get off the topic a little, but being a big fan of LOTR (Lord of the Rings) I see Snape as a somewhat "Gollum" type character. He may be mean, slimey, nasty, but he may have something important to do in the end, whether for good or evil.....we'll have to wait and see. The "other" Mrs. Weasley From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 1 16:15:40 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:15:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody/Snape References: <20030501152156.51654.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c30ffc$e9999e80$39ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56726 Rane wrote: Just sth that struck me as a little uncharacteristical... Somewhere in GoF (beginning of school year), it is said that Snape avoids looking Moody in the eye (or sth like that). Now, obviously, Moody would know about Snape's DE past (we know he does as he says so in one of the scenes in the pensieve). Now, it would seem logical that Snape wasn't looking at Moody because he felt embarassed. But that just seems so unlike Snape. But, rereading, I do find him *very* self-confident, and perfectly capable of holding his own - and I just can't imagine him being embarassed - about anything, including his DE past. Especially toward Moody, whom he seems to acutely dislike. I would think he would look at Moody with the same amount of disdain Moody seems to bestow upon him. If it was pretty much anyone else and pretty much any other situation, I would agree with you. But let's keep in mind Snape knows that his DE past is not something to be proud of, and Moody was a man that had the power to send him to Azkaban (or worse) pretty much on his own say-so. In that same scene, Moody makes that comment about spots that never come off, and Snape clutches his arm, then appears angry with himself. As others have speculated, I would say he still does feel some guilt, but I also get the impression he's trying to look at that part of his past as just something he did and that is *is* the past. Normally, that might even be how he can look at it, but now the Dark Mark is coming back. He is afraid but trying not to show it or let it affect him. Moody's comment probably was the equivalent of throwing salt into an open wound at this point. Ok, so I just woke up this morning, so I hope some of this actually made sense. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From diane.j.trani at intel.com Thu May 1 16:26:47 2003 From: diane.j.trani at intel.com (tranid128) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:26:47 -0000 Subject: Evil owls! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Paul Smith, unfortunately." wrote: > Hey everyone, > > How many other people have noticed that the only times eagle owls > appear in the books are with or connected to Dark (or potentially > Dark) wizards? > My idea is that the eagle owl that Harry saw from the Owlery was the > one from Voldemort notifying Moody!Crouch Jr. of Crouch Sr's escape. > I know the timeframe involved is highly questionable, as not many > people on here will able to say certainly how long it takes to walk > to Scotland from wherever the Crouches lived. Anyway, judging from > the book I'd say Crouch Sr's journey took him at least over a > fortnight to complete, and he was probably hampered considerably by > the fact that he kept slipping back into a trance, seen by Harry and > Krum when he arrived. As much as it is unlikely, I'd say it is > totally feasible for that eagle owl to have been sent on Voldemort's > orders. > > As I, like many others, have overlooked small details like this in > the past, I'll keep it in mind when I'm reading OOP to be extremely > suspicious of any eagle owls that are unaccounted for. > > Anyone who has seen another eagle owl please let me know, and does > anyone see sense in my fears, or even agree with them? Ta, Suze. I thought there was a connection between eagle owls and those who serve he-who-shall-not-be-named as well. Another passage has Harry dreaming he is riding the back of an eagle owl that takes him to the Riddle House. I believe there is also a part where Hermonie gives Harry an eagle owl quill as a gift. I have always wondered if there was some significance. -Diane (who would have taken a ball-point pen to Hogwarts if she ever got a letter) From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Thu May 1 16:30:15 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:30:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there anything in the HP world that bothers you?... And Neville In-Reply-To: <20030430.150455.-1014155.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <30ABACFC-7BF2-11D7-BC42-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 56728 On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 04:04 PM, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > I think something will turn him around at some point, though, and he > will > come to realize that *nobody* is safe when evil is on the loose, and > it's > better to be prepared and able to stand and fight I would love to see Neville come into his own. Aside from that, as he gets older two things might come over him. 1) He might just start to feel the need to avenge his parents. 2) He might begin to feel that he should follow in his father's footstep, either feeling some duty, or feeling that he wants to make his father proud of him (or both). Ya can't help but feel for Neville after finding out what he's been going through. Those visits with his parents have to just tear him up, especially as he's getting older now and is starting to understand more. I really hope that JKR goes further with Neville's story. --Dan From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 1 16:33:10 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:33:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secret Keeper References: Message-ID: <001301c30fff$5b7ece60$39ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56729 From: Steve Peter was also suppose to be in hiding. Sirius went to the place where Peter was suppose to be hiding to check on him, and when Peter wasn't there, Sirius was sure something had gone wrong. So, he went straight to the Potters to warn them. Which seems a little inconsistent, since he seemed to know the secret even though he wasn't the secret keeper. But the reality of the Secret Keeper isn't that people don't know where the Potter's are because Sirius and Dumbledore DO seem to know. The key is that if you come to the place where they are hiding, you won't be able to find them there. Remember Flintwick said Voldemort could be peeking in the window of the Potter's house and he still wouldn't be able to find them. They are magically hidden. Ordinarily, this would be how it would work. Keep in mind, though, that Peter had divulged the secret to Voldemort, meaning that it was no longer a secret. To me, this would mean that everyone else would then know where they were if they would have known beforehand (like Sirius and DD). Maybe DD realized at one point that he knew again where the Potters' were and knew that something had gone wrong. Which makes me wonder how long before going to the Potters' did Peter tell Voldemort the secret. To my mind, he would've had to do it right before Voldemort went because otherwise someone else might have had a chance to realize this and apparate over there and move them. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From cgbrennan at aol.com Thu May 1 16:36:08 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:36:08 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56730 Has anyone ever wondered how Voldemort got his wand back? According to Voldemort, after he attacked Harry "I was ripped from my body, less than spirit..." He would have had no body to carry his wand with him but we know that he still has the original wand Mr. Ollivander sold him, so how did he get it? It seems doubtful that Wormtail would have had the forethought or bravery to go back to the Potter's house to retrieve it and stash it; and the only other two people we know were there after the attacks were Sirius and Hagrid. I don't really believe it's either one of them, so...any ideas, anyone? "cgbrennan2003" From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Thu May 1 16:56:01 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:56:01 -0000 Subject: Bill's Teacher Ratings In-Reply-To: <3EB14B9D.000001.99495@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56732 Kathryn Cawte: Ron and Harry were *incredibly* lucky not to have been killed along with Hermione when they tackled the troll themselves - not to mention Hermione wouldn't have been trapped in a room with it if they hadn;t locked it in - although McGonagall doesn't know that last bit. Frankly I think she was ridiculously generous to give them points at all. I'm sure she only did it because she felt that their experience was punishment enough (which it wasnt considering it does nothing to stop them from carrying on with their risky behaviour). What they should have dones when they found out Hermione was missing was tell Percy (as the prefect in charge) and get him to get some staff help - or at least let the more experience prefects try and deal with it. If I were mcGonagall I'd have been *taking* points after the troll incident not handing them out - and great handfuls of points at that. But then I'm one of those people who wouldn't have handed out points to them for going after the PS at the end either - would have given Neville the points though. Me: It is true that Harry and Ron were lucky to survive the troll. But I would like to make two points. One, they were not searching for the troll, they simply wanted to retrieve Hermione. When they saw the troll, they tried locking it in an empty room and going for help, without knowing that the room was the very one that Hermione was in. I do not think that they can be blamed for that. Remember that they are eleven years old, in a stressful situation, trying to do their best. Once they realised that Hermione was trapped in the room with the troll, they had no choice if they wanted her to survive. It would have taken far too much time to find a Prefect or Professor and bring them back, they had to try to subdue the troll themselves. Two, I want to point out that if they had done as you suggest, and informed Percy, who would then (eventually) find and inform a Professor, who would (eventually) go to the girl's bathroom, it would have been too late. Even with Harry and Ron heading straight to the bathroom, they barely made it in time. Telling Percy would have been the 'correct' action, but Hermione would have likely died. Bill From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu May 1 17:03:35 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:03:35 -0000 Subject: Evil owls! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Paul Smith, unfortunately." wrote: > How many other people have noticed that the only times eagle owls > appear in the books are with or connected to Dark (or potentially > Dark) wizards? The only person I can say for sure who has one is > Draco Malfoy, as it's seen bringing him sweets from home. The > only other sighting of one I can remember is when Harry can see Hagrid digging up earth near his cabin to bury 100 gold coins in preparation for the COMC lesson with the Nifflers in GOF. > > The eagle owl "flew through the coil of smoke rising from Hagrid's > chimney; it soared towards the castle, around the Owlery and out > of sight". A considerable time later, Moody!Crouch Jr. is quick > on the scene when his father makes it to Hogwarts and Crouch Jr. > later confesses to having received word that his father had > escaped. [snip] > Anyone who has seen another eagle owl please let me know, and does > anyone see sense in my fears, or even agree with them? No, I don't believe you are imaging things concerning eagle owls, and you are not the first person to notice this. Not to try to reinvent the wheel, this post has some excellent points to make about this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53678 I hope that helps. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu May 1 17:13:21 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:13:21 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cgbrennan2003" wrote: > Has anyone ever wondered how Voldemort got his wand back? There has been quite a lot discussed concerning this. Go here: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/mysteries.html to reach the "Mysteries and Inconsistences" section of Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them. Scroll down to the section on Voldemort/Tom Riddle. The question you are looking for is #2. (How does Voldemort get his wand back?) There are links there to posts adressing this issue, and if you use the "Up Thread" option on the website, you will likely find even more input on this topic. I tried entering "Voldemort's wand" into the search box for the messages, but that largely brings up discussions of the brother wands (Voldemort's & Harry's) and the shades that emerged from Voldemort's wand when he and Harry tried to duel. Using the above link is probably your best bet. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychyic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu May 1 16:55:40 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:55:40 -0000 Subject: Stan Shunpike and class distinction In-Reply-To: <20030501143132.36432.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero wrote: > My opinion is that you don't pay tuition to Hogwarts. > That the only thing you pay for are school supplies ie > uniform, books, supplies like quills, parchment and > potions stuff. imamommy: I have a hard time making sense of that. After all, they do have a monetary system. You've got to pay teachers' salaries, food, etc. Of course, we know nothing about any tax system, either, so I suppose the MoM might be fronting the costs, but there *are* costs. I have a feeling the Weasleys might not seem so poor if they had two kids and an owl, but any family with seven children is going to find money tight. Danielle again: > Again this is just a thought, but it would make sense > as to why the Weasleys can afford to go there and why > the Creevey's can go there. Maybe Hogwarts depends on > rich alums to make nice contributions to help keep the > school running. imamommy: I have a feeling the Weasleys might not seem so poor if they had two kids and an owl, but any family with seven children is going to find money tight. Obviously, the Malfoys are stinking filthy rich (probably an ill-gotten fortune for those ambitious Slytherins), but not everybody there is that wealthy. Thanks for your responses! imamommy From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 1 17:03:22 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:03:22 -0500 Subject: Memory Charms (was: Is there anything that bothers you....) Message-ID: <20030501.120323.-472259.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56736 I see the standard Memory Charm as being nothing more than a gentle "nudge" on the charmee's brain, something that shouldn't hurt *anybody*, muggle or wizard. The two instances we have of Memory Charms actually causing harm were outside the norm: Crouch Sr. on Bertha Jorkins: I see him casting his Memory charm on her in a bit of a panic - he's worked so hard to keep this secret, then he walks in the door one day and finds all his hard work coming crumbling down. He doesn't take the time to concentrate and make sure he was only charming out the last few minutes of her life, he just slams her with all he's got and ends up harming her in the process. Prof. Lockhart on the way to the Chamber: I think the reason that the Memory Charm did him so much harm is because it basically "blew up" in his face because of Ron's broken wand. It wasn't a simple matter of it rebounding at the same strength that it left him (like ricocheting off a mirror), it actually got mangled and magnified by coming out of the broken wand. He was also in an excitable state, so he may also have put more force into it than was necessary just like Crouch Sr. did. As for Obliviators and others who use Memory Charms in their work (like Arthur Weasley), I think they're practiced at it enough and usually calm enough about it that they know how to do it easily and gently so that they will not harm anyone. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu May 1 18:29:18 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:29:18 -0000 Subject: Stan Shunpike and class distinction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56737 imamommy asked: > Do all British wizarding children go to Hogwarts? What about Stan > Shunpike? If he's 18 or 19 in PoA, mightn't he have been there for > Harry's first year (if he went)? Are there major class distinctions > in the WW? Are there some children whose families can't afford > Hogwarts, and where do they go? Do all British children wear > uniforms at school or is that just at elite boarding schools? How >do > the Creeveys support two students on a milkman's wages? Is there a > scholarship program? Does anyone else think of this stuff? > imamommy > (who wishes someone would give her a Pensieve for Mother's Day) In my opinion, if they have magical ability, him too, possibly, not really, no, see previous reply, most, it's free, and yes. Respectively. :) To elaborate... The only requirements we've heard about thus far regarding entrance requirements is magical ability. Neville family worried he wouldn't get in due to minimal magical ability. However, despite Ron's constant worry about his financial situation, he never once makes a comment that he was worried about attending Hogwarts. This leads me to believe the school is free, and therefore all children with sufficient magial ability are accepted regardless of financial situation. Reagarding Stan Shunpike, I see no reason why he couldn't have attended Hogwarts. Working on the Knight Bus seems like a pretty typical short-term job for someone who has just graduated but has not yet gained his or her ideal job. -Corinth From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 1 18:22:36 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:22:36 -0500 Subject: Curriculum Message-ID: <004d01c3100e$a5115930$39ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56738 I've been enjoying (and slightly participating in) the posts about curriculum at Hogwarts, and have seen people wonder how much of the curriculum is preestablished for the teachers. Here's a line from GoF that keep coming to my mind. "Now, according to the Ministry of Magic, I'm supposed to teach you countercurses and leave it at that. I'm not supposed to show you what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the sixth year. You're not supposed to be old enough to deal with it till then. But Professor Dumbledore's got a higher opinion of your nerves, he reckons you can cope, and I say, the sooner you know what you're up against, the better." (Moody, GoF, chpt. 14, p. 211-212 US hardcover) If you take this quote at face value, it would appear that the MoM has some guidelines for what should be taught in each class to each year. In this example, fourth years learn countercurses, sixth years learn more about the Dark curses, and from what I've heard about seventh years, they would seem to do even more research on the Dark Arts (being allowed into the Restricted Section). I would assume every class has some sort of guidelines they are supposed to follow as dictated by the MoM, who would most likely have a Department of Magical Education in charge of determining what students should learn and when. However, before anyone starts going on about Hogwarts seeming to do what it wants to do, here's another quote from GoF, which we've seen a few times before. "Now see here, Dumbledore," he said, waving a threatening finger. "I've given you free rein, always. I've had a lot of respect for you. I might not have agreed with some of your decisions, but I've kept quiet. There aren't many who'd have let you hire werewolves, or keep Hagrid, or decide what to teach your students without reference to the Ministry." (Fudge, GoF, chpt. 36, p. 709 US hardcover) The MoM has a curriculum for use in the schools under its influence. This would be for each class (DADA, Potions, Transfiguration, whatever). To some extent, this curriculum is being followed. I don't see anything to make me think Snape or McGonagall, for instance, are teaching outside of the guidelines, and as obssessed about rules as they seem to be, they probably wouldn't unless DD himself told them to introduce something not in the curriculum. Trelawney, for her incompetence, seems to have a set year-long lesson plan of the subjects she plans to cover in her class. Mainly, the major deviations from what is probably established curricula would be in CoMC, where Hagrid seems to teach whatever he wants, and DADA, where I have no clue what Lockhart was hired to teach. And, of course, the aforementioned Moody bit. Personally, I've always wondered whether Moody/Crouch Jr. can be believed on this one. I mean, I can see DD, having reason to believe we might be seeing V come back within the next couple of years, wanting fourth year students (keeping in mind Harry and his friends are in this class) knowing what they're going to be seeing/facing, but I can also see Crouch Jr. making that bit about DD's approval up for his own agenda. Maybe he thought Harry would be terrified at seeing AK performed. Then again, if he was doing it for his own reasons, then why teach them all how to throw off the Imperius Curse? Anyway, point being, there is a set curriculum for education laid down by the MoM, but DD doesn't always choose to follow it. I'm curious at how this will play out in OoP since Fudge threatened to look closer into this. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Thu May 1 18:35:03 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:35:03 -0000 Subject: Moody/Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rane_ab" wrote: > Just sth that struck me as a little uncharacteristical... Somewhere > in GoF (beginning of school year), it is said that Snape avoids > looking Moody in the eye (or sth like that). > Now, obviously, Moody would know about Snape's DE past (we know he > does as he says so in one of the scenes in the pensieve). Now, it > would seem logical that Snape wasn't looking at Moody because he felt > embarassed. But that just seems so unlike Snape. It's unlike the Snape we got to know during the Harry's classes , that's true. Still I am not completely convinced that we've already been shown his true self. Like I said before , I think that he is not as self-confident as he wants others to believe he is . It seems like he desperately tries to avoid everything that might remind him of his past as a DE . We know from the scene in he Pensieve that the real Moody is somewhat sceptical about trusting Snape and I believe the latter is totally aware of these misgivings. I am not completely sure if Snape actually has to FEAR Moody , nevertheless I do believe that he decided to be careful from the moment he knew that the Auror had been hired as new DADA teacher. Maybe he also feared that Moody might be able to destroy Dumbledore's trust in him. For Snape , Dumbledore's trust , maybe also his friendship , seem to be the most important things in life. At least that was what came to my mind after reading what was said after Snape mentions Moody searching his office : Moodys face twisted into a smile. "Auror's privilege, Snape. Dumbledore told me to keep an eye -" "Dumbledore happens to trust me," said Snape through clenched teeth. "I refuse to believe that he gave you orders to search my office!" (GoF , p. 305) This makes me believe that Snape is very anxious someone might actually be able to make the Headmaster mistrust him (like probably most people in the Wizarding World would do if they knew about his past). Even if his trial took place in public (and I believe it did) it doesn't seem to be public knowledge in the WW that he once was a DE. Otherwise , people would probably be worried about an ex-DE being their children's teacher (like they were worried about a werewolf teaching their children) . And when you think about it , someone as paranoid as Moody would have been clearly capable of bringing Snape's past to public and therefore destroy his reputation. Although I don't think Dumbledore would have made him leave , I doubt that he would have been able to go on teaching like nothing had happened. This is an interesting topic and I hope we will see some more interaction between Snape and the real Moody in the upcoming books. Anja (who has gotten addicted to the discussions on this list) From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Thu May 1 18:57:28 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:57:28 -0000 Subject: Why DD lets Snape be [an insufferable git] :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luv_lotr2" wrote: > I too agree with you. We must remember, that Snape is the > headmaster of Slytherin. Can you imagine if the headmaster of that > house was McGonagall? I guess even those that the sorting hat places > in Slytherin need a "role model", lol. > > As you stated DD knows what the "real" wizarding world is like. And > even though Snape may have the desire to do some dark magic of his > own, and take care of those he dislikes, he still has not crossed > that line as of yet! That is a very good point ! Yes , he is head of Slytherin and he seems to display all the characteristics of this particular house. The point (for me) is : He isn't evil !! (or at least he doesn't seem to be evil ;-) Hagrid once says that all the students that became DEs came from Slytherin. This seems to be true , although now we know that people from other houses can be evil , too (--> Pettigrew). Nevertheless kids from Slytherin seem to be particulary in danger of becoming followers of Voldemort . Maybe Dumbledore tries to save at least some of them in making Snape head of house. Snape isn't just a teacher. He has seen a lot of things , he knows the difference between right and wrong , between dark and light not just by theory but by experience . He has been a DE once , he has practised dark magic and maybe even killed - but for some reason he turned around and went back right into Dumbledore's service. Making him head of Slytherin was (in my opinion) a very wise thing to do. Snape knows what's going on in those kids's heads. Once he was one of them , probably felt and thought like them and now can imagine what it's like for them to have to decide which path to take. Most of them , like Malfoy , Crabbe and Goyle are additionally influenced by their parents who are DEs as well and seem to expect their sons to follow them into Voldemort's service. I think this might also be one of the reasons Snape tried to gain Malfoy's trust. Maybe he still sees hope for him and therefore hopes that one day , he might be able to save him from becoming a DE. Just a thought ... Anja From potterfan23 at hotmail.com Thu May 1 19:04:18 2003 From: potterfan23 at hotmail.com (Emily F) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 14:04:18 -0500 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56741 Bill wrote: >So how about some sample curricula of your own? How many subjects >would be compulsary, and how many elective? How many Professors >would be on staff? You cannot schedule too many subjects, or the >students will run out of free time due to homework, but too few >subjects, and they are losing learning opportunities. Me: I haven't thought in great deal about the amount of coursework for each course, or required vs. elective curriculum, but I liked some of your suggestions, Bill. I think you, and everyone else, are thinking about some of the courses a little incorrectly. MUGGLE science? MUGGLE history? MUGGLE literature? Why make these distinctions? I would assume that (to borrow someone else's example) water boils and freezes at the same temperature in the wizarding and muggle worlds. I would also assume that rocks erode, dolphins swim, and lightning strikes exactly the same in both the wizarding and muggle worlds. While, arguably, in some instances magic can change some properties of science, surely it can't change all of them. I know that some Hogwarts classes currently cover some aspects of science, but I think a few more could be added. The courses may be surveys, and need not go into great detail, but I can't think of anything horrible that would come from the students learning more about the natural world. As to the subjects of history and literature - do you all remember why we study those in the first place? History and expression (literature, art, etc.) are vital to our humanity, and to the story of our humanity. The most important thing I learned about history in school is that we must understand history in order to avoid repeating it. I find it hard to believe that there are no lessons the wizarding world could learn from muggle history. Perhaps the history class at Hogwarts would focus on British history, and skim over some events that aren't "major" historical events. Literature is valuable to the expression and sharing of human emotion and the preservation of culture. I'm sure the wizarding world has its share of writers, but I can't imagine that they would differ so starkly from muggle writers that wizards should study the latter and not the former. Of course, as far as we can tell, the Hogwarts students don't study literature at all. Poor kids. And Hermione could really do with a good dose of Jane Austen. The thing I find most disturbing about the Hogwarts curriculum is that it is TOO focused on the wizarding world. While some may never leave that world, I think the majority will at some point, even if by accident. Restricting the children to discovering ONLY the wizarding world seems rather unfair, especially to the children who come from wizarding families. And God forbid they learn to look both ways before crossing the street! :-) Of course, we can debate whether studying these subjects is necessary in a magical school. Along those lines, are they really necessary in a muggle school? They may not be *necessary* to get through life, but a greater understanding of the world around us - ALL of the world - makes us better human beings. And isn't that understanding the goal of education? I won't even talk about how much it saddens me that there doesn't appear to be higher education in the wizarding world. Emily, who considers the formation of the Grand Canyon to be highly scientific, certainly miraculous, but absolutely not magical _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 1 19:06:46 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20030501161659.90970.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030501190646.24004.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56742 --- Becky Walkden wrote: > Two things I would do.... > > 1. Most importantly is get rid of the black > robes and change the school colors to pink. Or > maybe some nice pastels. > > 2. Tie the Slytherines to the Hogs Express > Track at the end of the term. That would be a > fun activity to look forward to. > > Damn I'd make a good Headmaster! Me: It might be a fun activity to see if the Slytherins can manage to get themselves untied and off the track in time to catch the Hogwarts Express back home. Shades of Penelope Pitstop! I would have a bit of a problem with changing the school color to pink or a pastel. I look horrible in pastels and I really think a nice rich jewel or royal colors would be more in keeping with the surroundings. This way the guys wouldn't feel as if their masculinity is being threatened. Pastels just say Beauxbatons to me. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 20:08:53 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:08:53 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20030501094019.1224.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56743 Vinnia wrote: > > > I will also include VW I in the history of magic. > > > Me: Do you think VWI *is* included in the history of magic courses? I have no idea how schools are run in the UK, but my history classes are strictly chronological. We start out with world history as freshmen (cavemen and up through Industrial Revolution and all that), then comes US I (revolution through civil war) and US 2, which brings us as close to the present as the time permits. One of the electives for senior year is CGI, or Current Global Issues, which is obviously more present than history, but it's the same concept. So, assuming the Hogwarts cirriculum follows a similar pattern....*drumroll*...we might just get more info on VWI in later books. So far, Harry relates that HoM consists of Goblin Rebellions and all that. I'm not about to go look it up, but I know Hermione mentions sheer facts every once in awhile, I guess if she's bored. For example, "the Goblin Rebellion of was organized in that building." I believe she says something to this effect in PoA? So if these Goblin Rebellions were a few hundred years ago (don't remember the exact date off the top of my head), then we might well by 6th or 7th year actually have a History of Magic class relating to VWI. Which could potentially be Professor Binns second successful class of the series. =) Now that I've thought of it, I can't wait to here this lesson, if it exists. Besides, is it just me, or do we know very few *facts* about VWI? We're told a lot about what it *felt* like to be living around then and all that...but nothing terribly useful. Just a thought. -Laura From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 1 19:56:26 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:56:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Moody/Snape References: Message-ID: <005701c3101b$c0701c40$39ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56744 From: "Anne(Anja)" > Maybe he also feared that Moody might be able to destroy Dumbledore's > trust in him. For Snape , Dumbledore's trust , maybe also his > friendship , seem to be the most important things in life. At least > that was what came to my mind after reading what was said after Snape > mentions Moody searching his office : > > Moodys face twisted into a smile. "Auror's privilege, Snape. > Dumbledore told me > to keep an eye -" > "Dumbledore happens to trust me," said Snape through clenched > teeth. "I refuse to > believe that he gave you orders to search my office!" > > (GoF , p. 305) > > This makes me believe that Snape is very anxious someone might > actually be able to make the Headmaster mistrust him (like probably > most people in the Wizarding World would do if they knew about his > past). First of all, I have always found that quote of Snape's to be fascinating. It shows that he believes DD trusts him, and he has such faith in this that he refuses to believe that DD doesn't trust him. I don't see any anxiety from Snape that DD might be led not to trust him, simply because that probably would have happened during or in the aftermath of the last war. Don't try to tell me Moody and others in the know tried to make DD see their point of view, mainly that Snape had been a traitor to one side, so what's to stop him from doing it again? We still don't know what made Snape defect or what he did or said to DD that made him trust that Snape was for real, but whatever it was must have been pretty strong and I don't think even Snape thinks that DD's going to all of a sudden change his mind 13 years later just because the Mark Snape had received way before that is now coming back of its own accord. > Even if his trial took place in public (and I believe it did) it > doesn't seem to be public knowledge in the WW that he once was a DE. > Otherwise , people would probably be worried about an ex-DE being > their children's teacher (like they were worried about a werewolf > teaching their children) . Also my main reason for believing his trial was not public and only certain people knew about it. More found out about it at Karkaroff's trial, but even that one must not have been that public. After all, Karkaroff was going to name names, and I don't think the enforcement agency would want the WW in general to know who had been named, or else it would be impossible to catch those people. Therefore, this little piece of info must not be well-known or else DD, Snape, the MoM, and who knows who else would be getting owls to this effect. > And when you think about it , someone as paranoid as Moody would have > been clearly capable of bringing Snape's past to public and therefore > destroy his reputation. Although I don't think Dumbledore would have > made him leave , I doubt that he would have been able to go on > teaching like nothing had happened. > Moody is also a friend of DD's and one of the few Aurors who did not give in to corruption during the last war. Why would he out Snape just for the fun of it? I could see him doing it if he had found a genuine reason to think Snape was up to no good and/or truly a DE still. I can see Snape being worried/afraid that Moody might see something in or about Snape that he doesn't like and that would make him think he was up to no good and out him because Moody erroneously believes that Snape is a danger. Perhaps why he does back down so easily when Moody mentions the name Harry. Or, if he really is playing some sort of a role where he may have to renew his DE ties down the line, he could also be afraid that Moody will blow the whole thing somehow. If this is the case, this fear would be viable because, by Moody making the comments about DD that he does, it tells Snape that DD didn't let Moody in on their little plan. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 1 20:23:28 2003 From: severin_szaltis at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?L=20Finn?=) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:23:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Why DD lets Snape be [ an insufferable git] :-)(WAS Teachers and fairness) In-Reply-To: <1051797012.19591.29336.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030501202328.90138.qmail@web20709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56745 "DD is just trying to 'prepare' (if passively) the students for the real world - in all its goodness and evilness, fairness and unfairness. Letting Snape act the way he does is like warning the students: well, life really isn't always fair." Rane JKR when asked: Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially Harry, Hermione, and Neville)? Replied: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life...horrible teachers like Snape are one of them! (Yarhooligans chat interview) SS ~;o) "...little things are infinitely the most important." --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Thu May 1 20:08:50 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:08:50 -0000 Subject: The Catalyst to Riddles Motivation (was: Riddle's family) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56746 Richelle Wrote: >But that point aside, do we really know that Riddle was an only >child? First of all, we don't even know how he knows what he does >about his mother. She died when he was born. It is feasibly >possible that she had another child with a different father before >she had Tom Riddle. An older half brother/sister could have been >sent to a separate Muggle orphanage, Kenney Wrote: >My theory is and has been for a long time that Grandmother Evens >(Lilly's mum) had Tom riddle as a child. Her identity could have >easily changed if her maiden Name was altered by Grandfather Evens >especially if they married young. Too young to keep as a child for >fear of being shunned by society, she doesn't tell Tom Riddle >Senior or he too, not wanting to face a complicated social >confrontation deserted the expectant teenager. CoS (US hardback, page 332-333) "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort ? who _is_ the last remaining ancestor [descendant, corrected in future printings] of Salazar Slytherin ? can speak Parseltongue." The problem I have with this idea is that Dumbledore clearly states that Riddle/Voldemort is the last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin (well, it says ancestor in my copy, but I don't want to run that one through the wringer again). CoS (US hardback, page 314) "I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side?" GoF (US hardback, page 647) "He left her and returned to his Muggle parents before I was even born, Potter, and she died giving birth to me, leaving me to be raised in a Muggle orphanage " Riddle himself admits that he's the heir of Slytherin through his mother's side and that she died giving birth to him. If he was born in the 20's, there's a pretty good indication that she did die in childbirth (it was very common) and that there would be plenty of witnesses (midwife or doctor, neighbors, etc). I think there's too much canon to show that he couldn't have a sibling through his mother's side. Now, it is possible that he has a sibling through his father's side, but s/he would almost have to be unknown or unacknowledged, because when Riddle Sr. died, his house/possessions would have gone to that child. Not to mention, unless Riddle Sr. happened to hook up with a witch again, the likelihood is that child would have been a Muggle too. bowlwoman From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 21:05:17 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:05:17 -0000 Subject: Memory Charms (was: Is there anything that bothers you....) In-Reply-To: <20030501.120323.-472259.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56747 Melanie Ellis wrote: > > > I see the standard Memory Charm as being nothing more than a gentle "nudge" on the charmee's brain, something that shouldn't hurt *anybody*, muggle or wizard. The two instances we have of Memory Charms actually causing harm were outside the norm: Crouch Sr. on Bertha Jorkins: I see him casting his Memory charm on her in a bit of a panic - he's worked so hard to keep this secret, then he walks in the door one day and finds all his hard work coming crumbling down. He doesn't take the time to concentrate and make sure he was only charming out the last few minutes of her life, he just slams her with all he's got and ends up harming her in the process. > > > Me (Laura): I agree to a point. You're most likely on to something- no doubt Crouch was panicking. However, Bertha is harmed two times. Firstly, Crouch's memory charm is said to have permenantly damaged her memory. Secondly, LV's breaking of the memory charm further harms her. "She told me many things. . . but the means I used to break the Memory Charm upon her were powerful, and when I had extracted all useful information from her, her mind and body were both damaged beyond repair. She had now served her purpose. I could not possess her. I disposed of her." GoF, Ch.33: The Death Eaters, p. 655, US paperback Now, aside from being a very creepy passage that gives us a glimpse at how twisted LV is, this also tells us a bit about memory charms. The means to break the charm were powerful, from this I assume that the memory charm was also powerful. Crouch Jr also says (Ch. 35: Veritaserum, p.685) "She [Bertha] confronted him. He put a very powerful Memory Charm on her to make her forget what she'd found out. Too powerful. He said it damaged her memory permanently." He may have panicked. Or it may well have been intentional. I believe you can put different amounts of magic into spells. For example, Hermione's "Alohomora" spell works on the locked door on the 3rd floor, but not in the obstacles leading to the Stone. This may imply that one door was locked magically, and one door was locked a lot more magically. =) Point being, you can put a simple memory charm on someone or a powerful one. A Muggle who notices a wizard with odd money can be given a simple charm to forget this even happened. But in the case of the Crouches, Crouch Sr. wanted to make damn sure no one found out what Bertha had, so he hit her with an extra hard charm. Of course, this was no match for LV, who was only able to break through the charm with "powerful" means. So although Crouch was unable to keep his secret, he tried hard and at least made it difficult for someone else to break through. > > > Prof. Lockhart on the way to the Chamber: I think the reason that the Memory Charm did him so much harm is because it basically "blew up" in his face because of Ron's broken wand. It wasn't a simple matter of it rebounding at the same strength that it left him (like ricocheting off a mirror), it actually got mangled and magnified by coming out of the broken wand. He was also in an excitable state, so he may also have put more force into it than was necessary just like Crouch Sr. did. > > > Again I beg to differ- CoS, US paperback, Ch. 16: The Chamber of Secrets, p. 303 < < < "The adventure ends here, boys!" he [Lockhart] said. "I shall take a bit of this skin back up to the school, tell them I was too late to save the girl, and that you two *tragically* lost your minds at the sight of her mangled body- say good-bye to your memories!" He raised Ron's Spellotpaed wand high over his head and yelled, "Obliviate!" < < < He intends to tell everyone that Harry and Ron "lost their minds." He can't really just make them forget the last hour, because they're still in the Chamber and it would lead to some awkward questions, like, "How did I get here?" The only way to effectively rid the boys of this memory would be to do it when they get back to the school- which would be impractical, since now is the only chance he might have (being wandless). He inteds to make them "lose their minds." Not necessarily just forget the last hour, but to forget everything. IMO, Ron's wand only commits 2 errors: backfiring at Lockhart instead (as we'd already seen in CoS with the slug scene) and secondly, exploding. =) The wand exploded because the spell was too powerful for the broken wand to handle. However I think it did get the inent across- Lockhart lost his mind- *all* his memory. We have an example in GoF of Harry being an direct witness to a memory "modification" instead of an all-out memory oblitteration. (Ch.7: Bagman and Crouch, p. 77) < < < At that moment, a wizard in plus-fours appeared out of thin air next to Mr. Roberts's front door. "Obliviate!" he said sharply, pointing his wand at Mr. Roberts. Instantly, Mr. Roberts's eyes slid out of focus, his brows unknitted, and a look of dreamy unconcern fell over his face. Harry recognized the symptoms of one who had just had his memory modified. < < < Mr. Roberts afterwards handed the Weasley's their map and change. He didn't say, "uh, where am I?" He obviously knew where he was and went on with his job as he knew how to do. He didn't forget his whole life- just the last 5 minutes. So from these quotes, I am concluding 2 things- 1) That there are levels of power that one can put into Memory Charms and 2)That there are 2 kinds of Memory Charms- those that can make someone forget a few hours time or a specific event or thing, and those that can totally wipe out a person's memory completely. -Laura Slightly OT, I always found it interesting that once he'd forgotten that he was supposedly this big, famous and handsome wizard, Lockhart turned out to actually be a modest, humble, decent guy. (IMHO) He says something along the lines of "I suspect I was horrible!" when he is informed that he's actually a teacher. Apparently he was a nice guy underneath it all who was just horribly corrupted by fame inflating his big head. JKR really was thorough on that lesson. =) Anyone else suspect that we haven't seen the last of Lockhart? I can't remember any characters that have just disappeared that we haven't seen back again or are expecting back... From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 21:16:27 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: <1051817726.5582.42591.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030501211627.14180.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aja_1991" > Actually, something bothers me more than this about the whole Secret > Keeper situation, beyond just who and who wasn't the Secret Keeper. > > The people who knew about the switch of Secret Keeper were: > (1) James Potter > (2) Lily Potter > (3) Peter Pettigrew > (4) Sirius Black > (5) Voldemort (through Pettirgrew) > and... > (6) Whoever cast the Fidelius Charm > > I think I've always just intuitively assumed that Lily cast the > charm... you know, Ollivander telling Harry how her wand was great > for Charm work. > "kiricat2001" added: I'm not convinced you can say definitely that Lily did not cast the charm. The question of whether the charm's subject can also cast it is unknown. However, people can cast charms on themselves - Cedric used the Bubble-Head charm on himself in the 2nd Task. Maybe only a truly gifted Charms practitioner would be able to cast a difficult Charm such as Fidelius on themselves. Was Lily that good? We don't know definitively, so we can't rule her out. Somehow, the thought that only the original four (James, Lily, Peter and Sirius) knew about the switch makes me feel more comfortable with my interpretation of the story. Sirius never mentions anyone else knowing about the Switch. It doesn't feel right to think that there was another person involved, because that, to me, dilutes the impact of Peter's treachery. The waters get muddied if, not only was Peter a traitor, but the potential #6 also was evil enough to let Sirius take the fall for what happened. Now me: I prefer to think that DD did cast the Fidelius Charm, but that the person casting the charm didn't need to know who the Secret Keeper was, to make it 100% safe, ie Voldie would not be able to get the name from DD if he tried, as he wouldn't know. I mean, the charm could involve something like having those on who the charm is applied to be thinking of their secret keeper, or to do something with the secret keeper's name (like write it down and put the paper somewhere or burn it...). So only the persons trying to be hiden and the secret keeper would know for certain, and adding more people to the list of those who know would make the charm less efficient. Of course, they could share that information with the charmer if they trusted so, but it was not required. Lily might have been too, i don't reject that possibility. But every time i read that part i always had the impression that DD had been the one performing the Fidelius Charm. What i always understood is that DD had suggested the idea of hiding that way, suggested even Sirius as secret keeper, everyone agreed, and then in the last minute the Potters decide to think of someone else as their Secret Keeper. Maria, hoping her point, though confusing, was clear enough ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu May 1 21:10:33 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:10:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Catalyst to Riddles Motivation (was: Riddle's family) Message-ID: <12174306.1051823433044.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56749 bowlwoman wrote: > The problem I have with this idea is that Dumbledore clearly states
> that Riddle/Voldemort is the last remaining descendant of Salazar
> Slytherin (well, it says ancestor in my copy, but I don't want to run
> that one through the wringer again).
I could actually believe that Dumbledore would lie if he thought it best that Harry didn't know something about his past. IF (and it's a very big if) there is some connection between Riddle and Harry (as in relations) I think Dumbledore would have gone above and beyond the call of duty to keep it from Harry. Harry was beginning to doubt his place in Gryffindor due to what the sorting hat said, and who knows what he'd have thought after Riddle's "we even look alike" speech if Dumbledore hadn't put a stop to those thoughts. Suffice it to say, while it is in theory possible, I think it's extremely far fetched that Harry could be any relation to Voldemort. And the closest my mind can conceive is Voldemort/Riddle being a great uncle to Harry. (Though I've actually imagined it through the Potter side, not Evans.) At any rate, if there were such a possibility Dumbledore would take extreme caution that Harry not find out about it--until he is ready. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu May 1 21:45:51 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:45:51 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: <20030501013919.9387.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56750 Lynn wrote: Oh, a challenge. Well, not much of one since the first example that came to my mind hasn't been brought up yet. In PS p. 104, in their first Potions class, after Neville had melted the cauldron: "You - Potter - why didn't you tell him not to add the quills? Thought he'd make you look good if he got it wrong, did you? That's another point you've lost for Gryffindor." Seems to me that while Snape gave an explanation it was totally ridiculous for him to do so. How would Harry know what Neville was doing when he wasn't working with him? END QUOTE. I reply: A challenge well met! I do agree that this is a lame excuse for taking a point off of Gryffindor. However, what strikes me here is that Snape says "that's *another* point you've lost for Gryffindor." Earlier in the same scene, Harry snidely replies to Snape: "I don't know," said Harry quietly. "I think Hermione does, though, why don't you try her?" A few people laughed; Harry caught Seamus's eye, and Seamus winked. Snape, however, was not pleased. "And a point will be taken from Gryffindor House for your cheek, Potter." (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.8, 138) So, rereading the scene, all Snape really does aside from the remark about celebrity (which might also be read as Snape's attempt to show the *other* students that celebrity's not as important as they might think it is) is ask Harry questions to which Harry doesn't know the answers. I have had many teachers who start out the year this way. And usually, they start with the kid that everyone thinks is the best in the class. This gives people confidence that no one's better than anyone else. And Snape didn't actually ridicule or insult Harry ? he simply demonstrated that just because you're famous doesn't mean you're the best student in the class. Now, granted, we know that Harry is actually very concerned about how little he knows, and that he's afraid that he'll be the worst student in his year. *We* know that. But the other students (except for Ron) don't. And the teachers don't, either. All Snape does is ask questions. It is actually Harry who is disrespectful first, with his quip about Hermione. Lynn wrote: As for Harry not respecting Snape, well, if I entered my first class with someone and got treated as Harry did by Snape, I'd have no respect for that teacher either. Harry did nothing but take notes. I reply: That's movie contamination, there. Harry's not taking notes in the book. Lynn quoted PS/SS: PS p. 101 - "Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new - celebrity." And: PS p. 102 - Snape's lip curled into a sneer. "Tut, tut - fame clearly isn't everything." I reply: I think it bears mention here that Snape clearly has issues with fame, and famous people who get easy rides with minimum work. He definitely had these issues with James Potter, and I believe that Snape thinks he's going to stamp out any potential arrogance in Harry right off the bat. And he's not that far off ? by PoA, we see that even Fudge gives Harry more leeway than would normally be allowed for other students. "They've got away with a great deal before now... I'm afraid it's given them a rather high opinion of themselves... and of course Potter has always been allowed and extraordinary amount of license by the headmaster ?" "Ah, well, Snape... Harry Potter, you know... we've all got a bit of a blind spot where he's concerned." (PoA, US paperback, Ch.21, 387) And Fudge isn't lying ? they do have a blind spot where Harry's concerned. Harry could have been expelled in CoS for flying the car in with Ron, and wasn't. He could have been expelled in PoA for using magic during the summer, and wasn't. He could have been expelled in PoA for sneaking off to Hogsmeade, and wasn't. And the other students know it too. Unfortunately, a great citation for this comes through the mouth of Draco in GoF, so given that he's a dubious source, I'm sure some will question the validity of the perspective: "So," "You caught some pathetic reporter, and Potter's Dumbledore's favorite boy again. Big deal." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.37, 729) Let's face it ? Harry *is* Dumbledore's favorite boy. We all know it. And the others ? both students and teachers - know it too. So, to return to the point, Harry's subsequent behavior in the other books is something that Snape could predict in the first book. And he's out to show Harry that, no matter how much favoritism Dumbledore and the other teachers show him, he, Snape, will not be doing that... ever, and he doesn't. Lynn wrote: Snape hasn't done much to earn any respect and done lots to lose it. It's also been my experience that you get what you give. Snape gives no respect and gets none in return. I reply: This reminds me of a funny quote from Band of Brothers ? I know that that's a military story, and so it isn't a direct parallel, but I think it's similar ? "We salute the rank, Captain Sobel, not the man." ? Major Winters I think it's similar because I believe that that's the level of respect that should be accorded teachers. Whether or not you like them, you don't show them outward disrespect. Sure, badmouth `em in private all you want ? but not to other teachers, and not to the teacher himself. That's out of line. And Harry reaps what he sows with Snape. Harry is disrespectful of him right off the bat. He *could* have held his tongue there, and he could have just kept saying, respectfully, "I don't know, sir" to Snape's questions. But that's not what he did ? he replied with sarcasm, thereby proving the point Snape was trying to prove ? that Harry thinks he's above norms of behavior. Lynn wrote: As for Dumbledore awarding ridiculous points, I don't see them as ridiculous. He awarded HRH the points in PS for doing what the teachers couldn't - keeping Voldemort from getting the Philospher's Stone. I think that was a pretty significant thing to do. As for CoS, well, gee, they found the Chamber of Secrets, killed the basilisk and saved Ginny Weasley. Hermione didn't get any points, Harry and Ron did. Hmm, you would have awarded maybe 10 points for that? Again, they did what the teachers couldn't do and because they did it, Hogwarts didn't have to close. No, I don't see the points as ridiculous at all. I reply: I know, I know. I don't blame you for seeing things this way ? this is a bone of contention with me, though. ;-) After having this debate in another thread a few months ago, I've lightened up a little bit on the PS/SS achievements. But I haven't lightened up on Ron in CoS, because he didn't do anything. He didn't figure out what the creature was, he didn't figure out that the entrance was in Myrtle's bathroom, he went inside, but after the roof collapsed, all he did was dig. I can't see awarding *two- hundred* points to Ron for digging. And to evaluate whether or not two-hundred points apiece is unfair, let's take a look at the totals from PS/SS: Gryffindor: 312 Hufflepuff: 352 Ravenclaw: 426 Slytherin: 472 So, at two-hundred points apiece for Gryffindor, if the totals were anything like they were last year (which, I concede, they might not be,) then we're talking about a huge differential here. Enormous. Ron and Harry combined take in 400 points, which is more than *all* of Gryffindor took in the year before? No, that's way over the top ? especially since all Ron did was dig. But this is one of those things where we'll just have to agree to disagree ? last time, I don't think that anyone changed sides, after a long battle on the issue. You either think Dumbledore's points are fair, or you don't. I don't, but again, that's just me. ;-) -Tom From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 1 20:05:11 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:05:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts References: <20030501190646.24004.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005c01c3101c$f97db640$39ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56751 > --- Becky Walkden > wrote: > > > > 1. Most importantly is get rid of the black > > robes and change the school colors to pink. Or > > maybe some nice pastels. > > Ladi lyndi: > > I would have a bit of a problem with changing the > school color to pink or a pastel. I look > horrible in pastels and I really think a nice > rich jewel or royal colors would be more in > keeping with the surroundings. This way the guys > wouldn't feel as if their masculinity is being > threatened. Pastels just say Beauxbatons to me. I actually like the robes the way they are, but if you wanted to change the colors, how about corresponding to House colors. Slytherins in green with silver accents, Gryffindors in scarlet with gold accents, etc. I've always wondered how, in the books, a student automatically knows what house another student that they've never seen before is in. This would make it easy and probably even look cool, although I can see how this could serve to alienate the houses even farther. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu May 1 22:32:07 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:32:07 -0000 Subject: More on Snape & a couple of questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Neotoma73 at a... wrote: > > > > His relationship with Minerva is interesting. She'd have been his > teacher, she's his superior as Deputy Headmistress, but he still > snarks at her about winning the House Cup six years in a row (PS). > There could be anything from friendly teasing (because you know Snape > is the sort of person who'd tease his friends mercilessly too) to > barely muffled contempt. I'd learn toward the friendlier end of the > spectrum, since they do wind up working together on all the crises > that happen at school, and thus have to have relationship that is at > least cordial enough to let them get anything done. > > > me: > I agree here, I think he has quite a friendly relationship with > Minerva that is over and above the house rivalry--which is > interesting in itself. You'd think given those two characters and > those two houses it'd be cut-throat but even at it's worst (Snape > wanting Harry off the Q. team/the cat not beaten by a broom etc > exchange in CoS) it's healthy and benign. I don't see any sense of > contempt for Minerva--and Snape would not bother to muffle contmept, > especially for a Gryffindor. [...] > One really does have to wonder if they don't sit around evenings > plotting how they're going to scare some order into the brats > Dumbledore lets run wild. Remember, Minerva sent Draco into the Dark > Forest. > > Mel Annemehr: These two posts just made me think of something. Professor Snape certainly does seem to want to be "in control," doesn't he? He certainly wants to control Harry, either to try to keep him safe (though Dumbledore doesn't), or because he's a control freak. He is one of those teachers who can keep the class' attention with no visible effort. As a student, he was not the one in control, but I bet he preferred to have the type of teacher who *was* -- someone like McGonagall. I bet he had a real respect for her when he was a student. Although it didn't stop him from becoming a DE, when he returned to Hogwarts I believe she was someone he felt comfortable with. She, in turn, respected him, at least because Dumbledore does. This may be the basis for their very good working relationship -- I hope it comes into play in the fight against Voldemort. Annemehr whose daughters hope for the strict teachers because they are uncomfortable in chaotic classrooms From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu May 1 22:33:23 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:33:23 -0000 Subject: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56753 bowlwoman wrote: However, does Fudge really have the power to make good on his threats? In GoF (US hardback, page 709): "Now, see here, Dumbledore," he said, waving a threatening finger. "I've given you free rein, always. I've had a lot of respect for you. I might not have agreed with some of your decisions, but I've kept quiet. There aren't many who'd have let you hire werewolves, or keep Hagrid, or decide what to teach your students without reference to the Ministry. But if you're going to work against me --" And GoF (US hardback, page 710): "I don't know what you and your staff are playing at, Dumbledore, but I have heard enough. I have no more to add. I will be in touch with you tomorrow, Dumbledore, to discuss the running of this school. I must return to the Ministry." I reply: Well, I think that what Malfoy says in CoS is what's really the case ? the appointment and/or suspension of the headmaster is a decision for the governors ? but that's simply about who gets the job, and do they keep it? I think that what Fudge is talking about is how the headmaster behaves, and what kind of decisions the headmaster is making, at least, as far as WW legalities go. For instance, in GoF, Crouch!Moody tells the class that *Dumbledore* wants them all to undergo the Imperius Curse, which is illegal. So, this is the kind of thing that Dumbledore probably didn't consult Fudge on, and this is the kind of thing that Fudge could do something about, since it involves the law, and not just some school rules. Think of comparing it to our legal system. Dumbledore could be brought up on some ridiculous charges like '48 counts of casting Imperius Curse on students,' or such. Bowlwoman wrote: I see 4 reasons for Fudge's attitude change between CoS and GoF: 1) He's in denial and saying the first thing he can think of to try and shut Dumbledore up 2) He's in possession of some evil mojo and knows he'll be able to influence the governors 3) The rules have changed in the two years between the two scenarios and he CAN make the decision instead of the governors 4) There's a discrepancy in the narrative between the 2 books I feel that he's got some evil mojo going on and he thinks he'll be able to influence the current governors in a decision to curtail Dumbledore's authority or remove him altogether. I reply: This (2) is also very likely, except I don't think that Fudge is Evil. But I think he could get pissed off if Albus doesn't watch his step, and could act on that emotion without any hesitation. For instance, we seen in GoF that Fudge offers Lucius Malfoy seats in the Top Box at the Quidditch World Cup as a result of Lucius' generous donations to St. Mungo's. Now, ostensibly these three entities, Hogwarts, Ministry, and St. Mungo's, aren't connected, but IMHO, Fudge is building political relationships, here. So, it could be the case that Fudge is just acquiring and sustaining his influence. He doesn't have the ability to simply remove Dumbledore, since that's a decision for the governors, but I think that as Minister of Magic, he can certainly make Dumbledore's life more difficult. For instance, with Hagrid. The giants are outcasts, and were hunted down by Aurors, who are an arm of the MoM. There are many people who don't (and, to be fair, that do) like Hagrid. He could be affected by internal Ministry maneuverings, like, say, his illegal breeding of Blast-Ended Skrewts in GoF. Or Lupin. There's indication that Dumbledore's going to involve Lupin in the events we'll see in OotP. In such a case, someone could find out that he's allowing the werewolf back onto the school grounds. I'd say that, in the cases of Lupin and Hagrid, what we're dealing with is not simply a matter of Hogwarts policy or Dumbledore's decisions ? there's probably some existing legislation in the WW to handle stuff like this, and it seems that Dumbledore should tread very carefully ? governments are good at getting people on *technicalities.* There's always Sirius Black and the case of the runaway hippogriff. If it turns out that Dumbledore is harboring an *escaped convict* (since that is, after all, what Sirius really is,) then Fudge could definitely make Albus' life a lot more difficult. IMHO, this is the biggest problem Dumbledore has going for him right now. And unfortunately, Rita Skeeter knows about it, which is neat, because (although I'm out on this issue) I've heard some really compelling arguments about the pros and cons of Rita acting on what she knows. Sure, she's an animagus. Big whoop. She's also sitting on the story of the century. Maybe Hermione's threats won't be enough to contain her. Maybe Hermione will have upped the ante by pulling what she did. Speaking of Rita, we have the influence of the Daily Prophet in the WW. And as such, stories about 'Harry the Parselmouth, with his fits.' Here's a quote from the Daily Prophet in GoF: "A member of the Dark Force Defense League, who wished to remain unnamed, stated that he would regard any wizard who could speak Parseltongue `as worthy of investigation. Personally, I would be highly suspicious of anybody who could converse with snakes, as serpents are often used in the worst kinds of Dark Magic, and are historically associated with evildoers.'" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.31, 612-3) So, there's another situation where the Ministry might potentially get involved with Dumbledore's activities, not as far as the school *itself* goes, but with reference to other enforcement groups in the WW, and the 'investigation of a known Parseltongue.' And then, we have in `The Parting of the Ways,' Dumbledore's statements to Molly and Bill Weasley: "All those that we can persuade of the truth must be notified immediately, and [Arthur] is well placed to contact those at the Ministry who are not as shortsighted as Cornelius. "Excellent," said Dumbledore. "Tell him what has happened. Tell him I will be in direct contact with him shortly. He will need to be discreet, however. If Fudge thinks I am interfering at the Ministry ?" (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36, 711) In other words, Dumbledore *is* going to interfere at the Ministry. He knows that that's what he's going to do, and he doesn't want Fudge to know about it. I'd hate to see what could happen to him if Fudge find out that he's undermining the Ministry. That, too, is beyond simply operations at Hogwarts ? here, we get into tampering with the actual government. So, I'd say that Dumbledore's been forced into a rather precarious position for OotP ? he's got a great many Achilles' Heels (that, unfortunately, Rita Skeeter now knows about,) and even estimating conservatively, at least one of them is bound to be exploited, thereby making Dumbledore's job that much harder. I don't think that Fudge will simply have him removed, although he could, if he's squeaky clean and in-good with the governors. But if Dumbledore tampers with Fudge or tries to undermine him, then I can see Albus getting taken to task on a technicality for something really lame. -Tom From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 1 22:16:49 2003 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (Anna Hemmant) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:16:49 -0000 Subject: What's cooking at Arabella's? (was: Pondering Arabella Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56754 Hey all! Could I just say that this Margerita, HP and poker night sounds wonderful; I wish I had enough friends close by who liked HP that much! I've been trawling through the messages on this thread, and I think I've read them all, and no-one seems to be referring to the GoF canon where AF's name comes up. The smell in the tents at the quidditch world cup was like AF's house. The question isn't is the smell due to residual magic/potion brewing, it's what is it a residual from? Floo-powder use? Unlikely, cos I can't imagine the tents being connected to the network. Possibly it's a residual from some kind of Glamoury spell or potion, as the tent is not what it appears to be. Probably Mrs. Figg's house isn't either. So, speculations on what could possibly be hidden at AF's? Anna From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Thu May 1 21:38:50 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:38:50 -0000 Subject: Curriculum In-Reply-To: <004d01c3100e$a5115930$39ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56755 "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: >"Now, according to the Ministry of Magic, I'm supposed to teach you >countercurses and leave it at that. I'm not supposed to show you >what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the sixth year. >You're not supposed to be old enough to deal with it till then. But >Professor Dumbledore's got a higher opinion of your nerves, he >reckons you can cope, and I say, the sooner you know what you're up >against, the better." (Moody, GoF, chpt. 14, p. 211-212 US >hardcover) >If you take this quote at face value, it would appear that the MoM >has some guidelines for what should be taught in each class to each >year. In this example, fourth years learn countercurses, sixth >years learn more about the Dark curses, and from what I've heard >about seventh years, they would seem to do even more research on the >Dark Arts (being allowed into the Restricted Section). I would >assume every class has some sort of guidelines they are supposed to >follow as dictated by the MoM, who would most likely have a >Department of Magical Education in charge of determining what >students should learn and when. >Anyway, point being, there is a set curriculum for education laid >down by the MoM, but DD doesn't always choose to follow it. I'm >curious at how this will play out in OoP since Fudge threatened to >look closer into this. NOW ME: I posted something similar to this last night. If you want to check out my post, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/56694 My message deals mainly with the question of who has the ability to administer the Headmaster position, but I think your post plays right along with it. Yes, Dumbledore wants to make sure everyone can defend themselves (at least to the best of a person's ability), because he knows that Voldemort is back. Because Fudge is either still in denial or is playing the evil card (see my post for my opinion), I bet he'll be very upset when he finds out the whole story of what's been taught in the DADA class during Harry's year 4. I think this is another example of setting up the conflict between Hogwarts and the MoM in the next book. I have a feeling it's going to get down and dirty between Fudge and Dumbledore, and that conflict will only help Voldemort on his re-rise to power. bowlwoman From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Thu May 1 23:05:43 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia=20Chrysshallie?=) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:05:43 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501230543.85398.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56756 --- Laura wrote: --------------------------------- Do you think VWI *is* included in the history of magic courses? ...we might just get more info on VWI in later books. So far, Harry relates that HoM consists of Goblin Rebellions and all that. I'm not about to go look it up, but I know Hermione mentions sheer facts every once in awhile, I guess if she's bored. For example, "the Goblin Rebellion of was organized in that building." I believe she says something to this effect in PoA? So if these Goblin Rebellions were a few hundred Me: Yes, she says that in PoA, and the year is 1612. You're right of course, VW I might be taught higher up in the school. But I still don't think it's a very good curriculum. I mean, we have to cover almost 400 years of history in 3 years. And there are at least 2 events during this time span that have great effect in WW, the Grindelwald war and VW I. Also, Grindelwald can not be the first dark wizard around! There would be similar war in the past. And I think wizards and muggles shares history some centuries back, why don't the kids learn about this? They don't need to learn Goblin's rebellion in depth... certainly not spending 4 years on that topic alone! Laura: Which could potentially be Professor Binns second successful class of the series. =) Me: I agree...Makes me think, can you sack a ghost? I think I will sack him! Would he listen to me if I say he needs to rest? Also, I've just think of an additional class I would taught to the student. Perhaps for first year only, or may be first and second year. Hogwarts - A history It's a pity that the students know so little about the history of hogwarts. This course would provide them with information about the founding of hogwarts, and how it is run, and bits and pieces like the charmed ceiling of great hall. I would, of course, banned the secret passages to be told to students. They need to find it themselves, much more fun that way! Vinnia http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu May 1 22:54:40 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:54:40 -0000 Subject: OOP?:Possible "fan" quote broken link? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Here is the problem with that 'death of a fan' quote. There are lots > of articles in which reporters said that she said that, but it's never > in a direct quote. It's alway written in the words of the reporter as > his interpretation of what some interview said. So, since none of the > are direct quotes, it possible that they are all just spreading the > rumor. > Annemehr: I'm sorry -- I guess I wasn't very clear (posting to this list is beginning to remedy that, though). There are two related points I tried to make. The first is, that I found a short article about JKR on CNN, from October 1999. I posted the link. If you go there, on that page is a *video link*, presumably to the interview which that article was based on. As it is a video link, there's a good chance that JKR actually appeared on it, so we would have her own words. Unfortunately, I can't access that video, and I don't know whether it's a dead link or my software is inadequate -- but I would be extremely interested if anyone else knew anything about it or could try it. Since this is from 1999, it's probably too early to have a "fan" quote, but I am still interested because it would be new to me anyway. The second point is that the school newspaper article said the source of the "fan" quote was a recent CNN interview (so, in 2002 I guess). I have never heard of such an interview, I certainly can't find it on CNN's site, and I wondered if anyone here could help. I just see this as a clue, somewhere to look if anyone knows how or remembers any such thing. My computer skills may be inadequate. The two above points say to me that there is the possibility that CNN did some JKR interviews which they did not keep in their archives. This is sad news to me! The only interview the site does have is her appearance on Larry King. Annemehr who hopes this is not OT as it deals with possible sources for secondary canon (or pseudo- ... you know what I mean!) From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Thu May 1 23:22:42 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 00:22:42 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why DD lets Snape be [an insufferable git] :-) References: Message-ID: <3EB1AC42.000004.91789@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 56758 Anja said - Hagrid once says that all the students that became DEs came from Slytherin. This seems to be true , although now we know that people from other houses can be evil , too (--> Pettigrew). Now me - Actually what he said was "there's not a wizard that went bad that didn't come from Slytherin" which is clearly rubbish. When he said it he knew that Sirius had betrayed the Potters (even though it later turned out that he didn't) so he's ignoring the facts there to spout rubbish about a House that he has good reasdon to dislike and wants Harry to dislike. Harry dislikes Slytherins to start with because he;s been told to. Then Draco manages to say exactly the wrong thing to him while trying to be friendly, twice - this backs up his opinions. Of the DEs we meet I *think( the only one who's house we can be certain of is Lucius (although I admit it's likely that the others whose names we know were Slytherins), but he must have had support from more than just the people who were or should have been there at the end of GoF or otherwise I can't see people considering him a serious threat. If all of his support came from Slytherin as Hagrid and Ron seem to be telling us then 3/4 of the WW wouldn't have been supporting him. So either Slytherins are naturally more powerful (which I doubt) or other wizards agreed with him too. K From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Thu May 1 23:32:52 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:32:52 -0000 Subject: Would Dumbledore lie? (Was: The Catalyst to Riddles Motivation) In-Reply-To: <12174306.1051823433044.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56759 Richelle wrote: >I could actually believe that Dumbledore would lie if he thought it >best that Harry didn't know something about his past. IF (and it's >a very big if) there is some connection between Riddle and Harry (as >in relations) I think Dumbledore would have gone above and beyond >the call of duty to keep it from Harry. Harry was beginning to >doubt his place in Gryffindor due to what the sorting hat said, and >who knows what he'd have thought after Riddle's "we even look >alike" speech if Dumbledore hadn't put a stop to those thoughts. While I could personally agree with this on some level, we haven't seen any indication that Dumbledore would lie to Harry. In fact, he's done quite the opposite: In GoF (US hardback, page 695): "If I thought I could help you," Dumbledore said gently, "by putting you into an enchanted sleep and allowing you to postpone the moment when you would have to think about what has happened tonight, I would do it. But I know better. Numbing the pain for a while will make it worse when you finally feel it " And later on when telling the students about Cedric's death (GoF, US hardback, page 722): "It is my belief, however, that the truth is generally preferable to lies " I know he says "generally" in that last statement, but I don't think this hampers my reasoning here. And yes, Dumbledore has done some sneaky and possibly illegal things in the books (which I feel have only been in the interest of good), but has he told an outright lie? I don't think he has. I also don't think he would use bolstering Harry's self-esteem as a place to begin. In GoF, he tells Harry that numbing the pain will only make it worse later on. Why would Dumbledore directly subject him to that potential pain in CoS by lying to him but then turn right around in GoF and tell him this? Richelle also wrote: >Suffice it to say, while it is in theory possible, I think it's >extremely far fetched that Harry could be any relation to >Voldemort. And the closest my mind can conceive is Voldemort/Riddle >being a great uncle to Harry. (Though I've actually imagined it >through the Potter side, not Evans.) At any rate, if there were >such a possibility Dumbledore would take extreme caution that >Harry >not find out about it--until he is ready. It could be feasible for Harry to be related to Voldemort through the Potter side, but it would seem pretty contrived to me. It could still work, though, even with Dumbledore telling the truth about Riddle being the last descendant. Since I don't believe that DD is lying and I don't believe that Lily has someone magical in her ancestry, there are only 2 ways this could happen. For Voldemort to be related to Harry on the Potter side, it would either have to be through his Riddle side (someone was a squib and went out into the Muggle world) or else through a relative on his mother's side that wasn't descended from Slytherin (and we have no idea if VM's mom was the heir through her paternal or maternal side). bowlwoman From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 1 23:51:18 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:51:18 -0000 Subject: 'Fan' quote Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56760 Annemehr wrote: The second point is that the school newspaper article said the source of the "fan" quote was a recent CNN interview (so, in 2002 I guess). I have never heard of such an interview, I certainly can't find it on CNN's site, and I wondered if anyone here could help. I just see this as a clue, somewhere to look if anyone knows how or remembers any such thing. My computer skills may be inadequate. The two above points say to me that there is the possibility that CNN did some JKR interviews which they did not keep in their archives. This is sad news to me! The only interview the site does have is her appearance on Larry King. Me: Didn't we try to look for the 'fan' quote a while ago? I don't think anyone found it then. But anyway, I ran a search on Aberforth's Goat for the word 'fan' and the quote didn't crop up, although I admit I don't know how reliable the search engine is. The Lexicon also doesn't have the quote listed. The only CNN interview that was listed on Aberforth's was the Larry King one. I read it all the way through and the quote wasn't there. I didn't see the 1999 video interview there, but you're right - it's a bit early for the 'fan' quote. Personally, I think that this has "RUMOUR" written all over it. Maria From m.bockermann at t-online.de Thu May 1 23:44:15 2003 From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 01:44:15 +0200 Subject: OotP: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore? (refers to Bloomsbury teaser) References: <1051776372.6672.77762.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004101c3103b$b4214520$a60b9d3e@bockerma> No: HPFGUIDX 56761 bowlwoman wrote: >>>>The stage is all set for a wonderful conflict between Hogwarts and the MoM in the next book, possibly one where Dumbledore has to do some behind-the-scenes work because he's been removed as headmaster (or his power has been severly curtailed). However, does Fudge really have the power to make good on his threats? Actually, I'm convinced that Dumbledore will lose his pose at the beginnning of OoP or will already have lost it. Later in your post you say: >>>"Oh, now, see here, Lucius," said Fudge, looking alarmed, "Dumbledore suspended -- no, no -- last thing we want just now --" "The appointment -- or suspension -- of the headmaster is a matter for the governors, Fudge," said Mr. Malfoy smoothly. I see 4 reasons for Fudge's attitude change between CoS and GoF: 1) He's in denial and saying the first thing he can think of to try and shut Dumbledore up 2) He's in possession of some evil mojo and knows he'll be able to influence the governors 3) The rules have changed in the two years between the two scenarios and he CAN make the decision instead of the governors 4) There's a discrepancy in the narrative between the 2 books I would go for 2) or 3). Certainly, as the minister of magic, Fudge has enough political influence to "convince" the governors to do his bidding. Remember, in CoS, he really had not intention or wish for Dumbledore to go (as opposed to Malfoy). But now, Dumbledore has certainly acted against his direct orders by telling the pupils about Cedric's death and warning them against Voldemort's return. I simply don't see how Fudge could simply accept such a behaviour from someone who is below him. Whatever strings he will have to pull, he *will* make sure that Dumbledore has to go in OoP. More likely earlier than later, I'd guess. Because at first, people will believe the ministry's dementi and refuse to believe the return of the dark Lord. But by the end of book the bodies will begin to pile up so that even the hardliners won't be ablet to deny the truth. Later you write: >>>GoF ends a few days after the threats and big showdown, and Dumbledore is still in charge. However, during his speech at the Leaving Feast, he clearly states that the MoM didn't want him to tell the students the truth about Cedric's death. The fact that he mentions this shows that Fudge did contact him in the few days between and had been giving him instructions. I have a feeling that during the next book, we'll see more of this type of thing if Dumbledore isn't fired altogether. I wonder how far Dumbledore will go in defying the MoM before Fudge finally snaps? It took me a while to figure out whom Dumbledore reminded me off while giving his orders at the end of GoF: Leia and the rebels retreating from Hoth during Empire strikes back. The scene where DD is making preparations has a feel of urgency, as if - if he doesn't act quickly enough - he will not be able to set the things in motion that need to be done: gather the old crowd as last line of defense, warn the pupils to stick together and be careful and send out trusted followers on their missions (Snape, Sirius, Hagrid). Why am I believing this? Well, because of the fact that Fudge will not suffer DD's disobedience gladly, because of the sense the end of GoF invokes and lastly because of the Bloomsbury teaser. It opens with citing DD asking the pupils (and the WW world in general) to stand together, but makes clear, that it does not happen: the teaser speaks about a rift in the wizarding world. A rift between those who believe in Voldemort's return (in other words: who believe and follow DD) and those who don't (and obviously believe Fudge and likely the rest of the wizarding government. Later we learn that Harry has to "confront the unreliability of the government of the magical world" which, IMHO makes it clear to me that the government will be an obstacle, not a help in the fight against Voldemort. Maybe that will change in HP6 and 7, but in 5 the DD-supporters are on their own. And if that was not enough to conclude that such a government would not accept DD as a headmaster any longer, we finally learn in the teaser that Harry has to "confront... the impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts". Does anybody connect DD with impotency? Or McGonagall? Or even Snape (he may be mean to the pupils, but I have seen no proof to support he is less than capable)? >From that I conclude that DD will not be the one responsible for Hogwarts during the major part of OoP. Yes, I think they will ask him back in humility at the end of the book - and certainly they will come to regret the decision. But I think that DD and the old crowd will have to work a while on their on before they will get the support of the magical government and the WW at large. CoS established that DD is not untouchable and that he has enemies like Malfoy who would not stop for blackmail to see him gone. DD hasn't endeared himself to his enemies since then and even picked up new ones like Karkaroff most likely and certainly the grudge of Fudge. Yes, Hagrid is all for DD and believes everybody would have prefered DD as minister of magic. But Hagrid was wrong: people like Malfoy show us that DD does have an opposition. We know that DD is right, but the rest of the WW reads tabloids like those written by Rita Skeeter. To answer your question: if Fudge can't fire DD directly, he will have him fired. And it will happen - before or during OoP. Ethanol, delurking as the Voice of Doom From DMCourt11 at cs.com Fri May 2 01:14:30 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 01:14:30 -0000 Subject: Moody/Snape In-Reply-To: <005701c3101b$c0701c40$39ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > > Even if his trial took place in public (and I believe it did) it > > doesn't seem to be public knowledge in the WW that he once was a DE. > > Otherwise , people would probably be worried about an ex-DE being > > their children's teacher (like they were worried about a werewolf > > teaching their children) . > > Also my main reason for believing his trial was not public and only certain > people knew about it. More found out about it at Karkaroff's trial, but > even that one must not have been that public. After all, Karkaroff was > going to name names, and I don't think the enforcement agency would want the > WW in general to know who had been named, or else it would be impossible to > catch those people. Therefore, this little piece of info must not be > well-known or else DD, Snape, the MoM, and who knows who else would be > getting owls to this effect. At Karkaroff's hearing Crouch says, "Snape has been cleared by this council. He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore." I have the feeling that right after Voldemort's disappearance there was too much chaos for trials and due process of the law. I think a lot of wizards and witches were rounded up and imprisoned first and questions asked later. I can see the MOM, Dumbledore, and a few others (aurors?) going through lists of names, crossing some off after debating their guilt, and holding some over for trial. Snape may have been vouched for by D and cleared at this point, the others willing to take his word. Snape could have been released from Azkaban without ever coming to trial. This is only speculation, but I think Karkaroff already had his trial and sentencing, and what Harry witnessed was his later attempt to get a lighter sentence by naming names. K says to Crouch, "I know that the Ministry is trying to round up the last of the Dark Lord's supporters." The words "last of" suggests to me a cleaning up action after the bulk of the trials were over. This would make sense if D's three memories were in chronological order. Karkaroff has been tried and sentenced fairly early on, and when we see him he's been in Azkaban long enough for his robes to be ragged. Bagman's could have come after that. He's described as lean and fit, but I have a feeling due to his celebrity status he never spent any time in Azkaban while awaiting trial. He's nervous but not haunted. Also, he's not accused of being a DE, but is answering to lesser charges of passing information to V's supporters. This is something that only would have been attended to after all the alleged DE's were gone through. We know from Dumbledore that the Lestranges and Crouch Jr. attacked the Longbottoms after "everyone thought they were safe". All trials, even the minor ones, must have been over long enough for people to feel secure all the DEs were caught. If we knew how old Neville was when his parents were attacked, we'd have a definite date. I find it interesting that of the three trials, Harry only saw Rita Skeeter at Bagman's. It could be that she only attended his because of his celebrity and ignored the others. I do think it more likely the other two were not open to the public (and press). Although being an animagus she could have found out and attended them anyway. Harry wouldn't have known. She didn't hesitate to infiltrate Hogwarts and publish things that she shouldn't have had any way of knowing. She doesn't seem to be afraid that leaking information could cause her illegal animagus status to become known. Donna From ephilipbar at aol.com Fri May 2 00:50:20 2003 From: ephilipbar at aol.com (ephilipbar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:50:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OotP: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore? Evil!Fudge?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56763 Ethanol writes: "If Fudge can't fire DD directly, he will have him fired and it will happen before or during OoP" Me: Quite interesting post there... as for me, I agree. In particular, I was getting concerned about all the "smiling" Fudge does at the end of GoF when he, DD, etc. are having the discussion about LV's return. There are at least three occasions where Fudge is noted to be "smiling" or "hiding a smile". As I was reading GoF for the upteenth time, this started to make me concerned for Harry and DD in subsequent books. Fudge is definately in denial; could he be something worse???? Also jumping off from the cliff where I lurk, Liz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 2 00:16:22 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502001622.56635.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56764 --- Tom wrote: > Earlier in the same scene, Harry snidely > replies to Snape: > > "I don't know," said Harry quietly. "I think > Hermione does, though, > why don't you try her?" > > "And a point will be taken from Gryffindor > House for your cheek, > Potter." > (PS/SS, US paperback, Ch.8, 138) > > So, rereading the scene, all Snape really does > aside from the remark > about celebrity (which might also be read as > Snape's attempt to show > the *other* students that celebrity's not as > important as they might > think it is) is ask Harry questions to which > Harry doesn't know the > answers. > > I have had many teachers who start out the year > this way. And > usually, they start with the kid that everyone > thinks is the best in > the class. This gives people confidence that no > one's better than > anyone else. And Snape didn't actually ridicule > or insult Harry he > simply demonstrated that just because you're > famous doesn't mean > you're the best student in the class. > > Now, granted, we know that Harry is actually > very concerned about how > little he knows, and that he's afraid that > he'll be the worst student > in his year. *We* know that. But the other > students (except for Ron) > don't. And the teachers don't, either. > > All Snape does is ask questions. It is actually > Harry who is > disrespectful first, with his quip about > Hermione. Lynn: First, I don't see how you got snidely from the word quietly, but I guess that is a matter of interpretation. For me, I saw it more as Harry's frustration than it being snide. However, I do agree that Harry should have held his tongue as hard as it would have been for me which is why I don't use that as an example. Second, Snape didn't just say celebrity. When Harry couldn't answer the first question, "Snape's lips curled into a sneer. 'Tut, tut - fame clearly isn't everything.'" (PS, p. 102) When someone's lips curl into a sneer, I don't think the words following it were quietly and educationally spoken. After the second question Harry didn't know, Snape accuses Harry of not opening his books even when he had no way of knowing whether that was true or not. Snape asked Harry questions he had a good idea that Harry wouldn't be able to answer. Then, when Harry didn't know the answer, he either made fun of Harry (fame) or judged him on unknown behavior. When, after the third question he tells the students to start writing these things down, that showed me that Snape knew the students probably wouldn't know these answers. Snape wanted to humiliate Harry and proceeded to do so. To me, the above behavior isn't a teaching tool, it's showing disrespect to the student. Therefore, I think Snape showed disrespect first. That being said, that doesn't give Snape the right to say, okay, since I didn't like what he said to me here, I'm going to be unfair there. Snape is supposed to be an adult and he certainly wasn't acting that way. He was just being nasty and that's no way for a teacher to behave and expect respect from their students. I also think it's just bad teaching to make assumptions about a child and ridicule them in class without knowing the child. Now, if Snape had asked Harry the questions without all the commentary, then I'd probably feel differently. I've seen teachers use that in a number of ways, usually to get others to raise their hands to answer the questions, and it was one of the tools they taught when I studied teaching in college. However, Snape was letting his own personal feelings about James Potter influence him and again, he's supposed to be the adult in the situation and instead he acts childishly. Now, the students see how Snape acts towards Harry, are they really going to be willing to try to answer questions while they worry about whether Snape is going to sneer at them if they have the wrong answer? > Tom's reply: > That's movie contamination, there. Harry's not > taking notes in the > book. Lynn: Mea culpa. You're right and you'd think that since I was reading and quoting right there in the book I would have seen that. Oh, well, as Snape sneered, Tut, tut, fame isn't everything. At least he couldn't accuse me of not opening the book, just not reading it properly. LOL > > Lynn quoted PS/SS: > PS p. 101 - "Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry > Potter. Our new - celebrity." > > And: > PS p. 102 - Snape's lip curled into a sneer. > "Tut, tut - fame clearly > isn't everything." > > Tom's reply: > I think it bears mention here that Snape > clearly has issues with > fame, and famous people who get easy rides with > minimum work. He > definitely had these issues with James Potter, > and I believe that > Snape thinks he's going to stamp out any > potential arrogance in Harry > right off the bat. > > Let's face it Harry *is* Dumbledore's > favorite boy. We all know it. > And the others both students and teachers - > know it too. > > So, to return to the point, Harry's subsequent > behavior in the other > books is something that Snape could predict in > the first book. And > he's out to show Harry that, no matter how much > favoritism Dumbledore > and the other teachers show him, he, Snape, > will not be doing that... > ever, and he doesn't. Lynn: How in the world could Snape predict in the first book, in his first meeting with Harry, what Harry's behavior would be later on or how he would be treated by others? Hindsight is 20/20 and I don't even agree with your hindsight. Yes, Harry and Ron shouldn't have taken the car. We don't know, however, if it had been any other students if they would have been expelled so to assume that it's just because of who he is, is assuming a lot. Snape may have expelled students from his house but it doesn't follow that Profs. Sprout or Flitwick would have. As for blowing up Aunt Marge, Harry didn't just decide to blow her up. That was unfocused magic, an accident. Harry didn't take out his wand and perform magic. He was pushed to the point of losing control. I'm sorry, but at this point he's only 13 and I've seen adults lose control over a lot less and a lot sooner than Harry did. To expect him to act older than 13 is to put unrealistic expectations on him. Let's also not forget, that Harry is threatened with expulsion for something he didn't do in CoS (the pudding). Obviously, there isn't this huge blind spot at the MoM for Harry otherwise they would have at least taken the time to investigate before convicting Harry of that offense. As for sneaking off to Hogsmeade, Snape couldn't prove it. Snape never could have gotten Harry expelled without proof other than Draco's word on it. You know, sort of like Draco doing the Leg Locker curse on Neville and getting away with it since none of the teachers saw it? Now, let's look at some of the things Harry has done. First, in PS, HRH first try to see Dumbledore about the Stone and when he isn't available, tell McGonagall about their suspicions. They are dismissed and so they do decide to do something about it. And, as we see, they were right. In CoS, they found the information and were going straight to the teachers. They went to Lockhart to give him the information just to find he was taking off. So, their initial reaction was to go to authority only to find that the authority let them down. I don't see the rule-breaking that HRH do as being arrogant or thinking they can do whatever they please. Many times that rule breaking is in an effort to help. I see it as 11, 12, 13, 14 yo logic. Harry going to Hogsmeade is no different than a kid sneaking out of the house to go to a movie. Is it right? No. Is it malicious? No. Is it a kid just being a kid? Yea. I've personally never met the perfect kid who has never broken a rule or a lot rules for that matter. It's part of growing up. And, they have received punishments for their rule breaking as well. They haven't gotten off scott free. >From the beginning, Snape colors his attitude toward Harry with his feelings toward James. Is that an adult attitude? Snape may have felt James was arrogant, and he may have been for all I know, but as much as the Potter's are described as well-liked, I don't think arrogant is a term many people would use about James. The teachers remember James fondly and probably thought of his antics in much the same way they view the Weasley twins, being kids. People keep expecting Harry to show adult behavior and judging him harshly when he doesn't and yet, excuse childish behavior in an adult. That doesn't make sense to me. Its' the adults who expect Harry to be larger than life, more than a kid, and when he isn't, they judge him harshly. Being an adult does not excuse someone for being disrespectful to those in a lesser postion. As Sirius points out in GoF, you take the measure of a man by how he treats his inferiors, not his equals. > Lynn wrote: > Snape hasn't done much to earn any respect and > done lots to lose it. It's also been my > experience that you get what you give. Snape > gives no respect and gets none in return. > > Tom's reply: > > I think it's similar because I believe that > that's the level of > respect that should be accorded teachers. > Whether or not you like > them, you don't show them outward disrespect. > Sure, badmouth `em in > private all you want but not to other > teachers, and not to the > teacher himself. That's out of line. And Harry > reaps what he sows > with Snape. Harry is disrespectful of him right > off the bat. He > *could* have held his tongue there, and he > could have just kept > saying, respectfully, "I don't know, sir" to > Snape's questions. But > that's not what he did he replied with > sarcasm, thereby proving the > point Snape was trying to prove that Harry > thinks he's above norms > of behavior. Lynn: Again, I don't think Harry replied with sarcasm but rather out of frustration after Snape's responses to Harry's first I don't knows. To me, Snape showed disrespect first. Does that excuse Harry? No, it doesn't. As the saying goes, Monkey see, Monkey do, Monkey get in trouble too. However, I think Snape set the tone for the relationship of disrespect, not Harry. Yes, I agree that you may not respect the man but you must respect the postion. That's a concept many adults have trouble with and to expect an 11 yo who has just been ridiculed and falsely accused is expecting a whole lot. If Harry was constantly disrespectful to everyone, I'd have a different opinion. But Harry shows a lot of respect to people. > Lynn wrote: > > Tom's reply: < > > But this is one of those things where we'll > just have to agree to > disagree last time, I don't think that anyone > changed sides, after > a long battle on the issue. Lynn: I respectfully agree to disagree. ;) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Fri May 2 01:12:31 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (xmezumiiru) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 01:12:31 -0000 Subject: A Question of Timelines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56765 `Allo all, I'm new, I'm Chris, and I'm babbling. Anyhoo. I have thought of some interesting things regarding the timeline of events, and so I have a few questions before I post a little theory of mine. What was the school year that Harry Potter started Hogwarts? (ie 92/92, 93/94) What has been decided as Snape's age in HP&PS/SS? What was Lily and James Potter's ages when they died? If anyone has the answers to these questions, since I've waded and cannot find the posts, would you please answer me? Thank you Chris [Mod Note: To avoid duplicate answers to these canon questions here on the main list, could everyone please send their answers directly to Chris off-list? And welcome aboard, Chris!] From meboriqua at aol.com Fri May 2 01:41:51 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 01:41:51 -0000 Subject: Why DD lets Snape be a bastard (WAS Teachers and fairness) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rane_ab" wrote: > So, IMO, DD is just trying to 'prepare' (if passively) the students for the real world - in all its goodness and evilness, fairness and unfairness. Letting Snape act the way he does is like warning the students: well, life really isn't always fair.> *Sigh* Apparently, JKR agrees with you, as Anne has pointed out, but that doesn't make me like this little life lesson any more. If I had a daughter who told me that her teacher insulted her, threatened her or embarrassed her, there'd be hell to pay. There are plenty of shitty people out there but my children don't need to sit in their classes. In reality, teachers do experience consequences when they treat students unfairly. More and more, kids in our world stand up and talk back to teachers, tell on teachers, even make strides to get teachers fired. In the WW, I get the feeling that the Hogwarts students don't often approach their parents when dealing with a bad teacher situation. We never hear Hermione mention telling her parents about Snape's comments or Neville swearing he'll send an owl right away to his formidable grandmother after Snape threatened to let Trevor the toad die. Maybe that is also part of JKR's lesson: if you don't speak out, deal with it. It is also a more traditional view of schooling, where kids suffer bad teachers in silence. In fact, students speak back so rarely to teachers in Hogwarts, everyone is shocked when Hermione throws up her hands and walks out of Trelawney's class. In my school, kids storm out of their classes all the time. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************ From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 02:31:16 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 19:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voldemort's knowledge of Hermione In-Reply-To: <1051837043.3186.71572.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030502023116.62212.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56767 I am a believer, maybe the only one, that Hermione maybe in danger in future books because not only is she Muggle-born, but she is also Harry Potter's bestfriend. I assumed that Voldemort may have found out about her through the Rita Skeeter articles (which I doubt because why would Voldemort read Witch Weekly and Daily Prophet, but who knows); perhaps Wormtail has read the Rita Skeeter articles and informed him about her; or Wormtail simply told Voldemort from "knowing her personally". Today, as I read an H/H essay from PumpkinPie.org, something clicked. Voldemort has known about Hermione, and Ron, waaaay before GoF. In SS/PS, he possessed Quirrel's body. I'm sure that he stayed in his body throughout the school day and had the opportunity to see Harry and his friends during class. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the Trio are bestfriends, so he must have known who they were from the beginning. Basically, I think Voldemort has known about Hermione, and Ron, for the longest and being that his plan to kill Harry hasn't worked out 3 times, he will more than likely use Hermione, and Ron, to lure Harry. Greicy, who just can't picture Harry being decapitated and Hermione and Ron dying Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siriuskase at earthlink.net Fri May 2 02:52:34 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (siriuskase) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 02:52:34 -0000 Subject: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? ) In-Reply-To: <20030429202955.50299.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56768 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > But in one of the books (I think PoA??), wasn't it suggested at the end that perhaps Snape only was forced to pass Harry in potions at the insistance of Dumbledore? I know Harry hates potions because of Snape and Harry is probably not the best potions student because of it, but I doubt if failing him would have been an "honest" grade at all. Rather it would have been a vengeful act but not an honest one. Huggs Becky > Harry was surprised that he passed. But why he did was all speculation on his part. He expected to fail and since he passed, he figured Dumbledore must have intervened. But, there is no evidence that he did. Snape may have had other reasons to pass him, or maybe Harry didn't do as badly as he thought. sirius kase From glcherry at bellsouth.net Fri May 2 02:46:20 2003 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 02:46:20 -0000 Subject: Secret Keeper Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56769 I am fairly new to this group, so if someone else has pointed this out forgive me. A question has been raised about just who performed the Fidelius Charm, and how if Sirius wasn't the Secret Keeper how did he know where the Potters' where? Is it possible, that Sirius himself is the one who performed the Charm? In PoA, Remus said that it was Sirius, and James who did all the brain work on how to become Animagus. As I said, new to the group, but it was just a thought. Lorrie From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri May 2 04:24:50 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 May 2003 04:24:50 -0000 Subject: File - HPfGU.announcement-Nimbus.htm Message-ID: <1051849490.76189670.71557.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56770 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri May 2 05:21:26 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 01:21:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House... Message-ID: <165.1f35141f.2be35a56@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56771 In a message dated 4/30/2003 11:57:05 AM Mountain Standard Time, ultimatesen at aol.com writes: > I believe JKR > is going to have Ron, Harry &ESPECIALLY Hermione get past this sort > of Snape inflicted abuse triumphantly. What I don't understand is, if > nothing ever gets past Dumbledore, and he knows all, then WHY is he > allowing this to continue? > > Sen > In a world with Dark Lords, Killing Curses, Dementors, werewolves, vampires, Azkaban with no trial, basilisks, acromantulas, dragons, veelas, etc., I'm of the opinion that a nasty teacher like Snape is simply a beginner's lesson in dealing with adversity and that not everyone, and especially not the aforementioned are going to "be nice" just because you come from a nice family, are an A student, or happen to be the Boy Who Lived. Snape's actions and comments, especially the "I see no difference" comment are often horrid and inexcusable (especially when they're delivered with an air of vindictive pleasure), but if the Trio is going to be involved in the next Voldemort War, they better have a better response than instant instinctive attack(Ron and to a lesser extent, Harry) or covering their faces and bursting into tears(Hermione). IMHO, if the Trio is to conquer Voldemort they must learn to deal with Snape. And Dumbledore knows it. Throw rocks if you want, but to quote bboy-mn, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Fri May 2 06:28:47 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 06:28:47 -0000 Subject: PoA - nameless old wizard at Buckbeak's execution Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56772 This has been bugging me for a couple of days since I finished my re- read of PoA. At the end of the book when the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures comes to execute Buckbeak, there are 2 people who come from that department: Macnair and unknown wizard. His name is never mentioned in the text, and there are six times he's mentioned. Here are the 6 occurrences (all references are in Prisoner of Azkaban, US hardback): Page 320: Before Fudge could answer, two wizards came through the castle doors behind him. One was so ancient he appeared to be withering before their very eyes; the other was tall and strapping, with a thin black mustache. Harry gathered that they were representatives of the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures, because the very old wizard squinted toward Hagrid's cabin and said in a feeble voice, "Dear, dear, I'm getting too old for this . Two o'clock, isn't it, Fudge?" Page 329: Harry, Ron and Hermione whipped around. A group of men was walking down the distant castle steps. In front was Albus Dumbledore, his silver beard gleaming in the dying sun. Next to him trotted Cornelius Fudge. Behind them came the feeble old Committee member and the executioner, Macnair. Page 399: But Hermione nudged him and pointed toward the castle. Harry moved his head a few inches to get a clear view of the distant front doors. Dumbledore, Fudge, the old Committee member, and Macnair the executioner were coming down the steps. Page 401: "Well, let's get this over with," said the reedy voice of the Committee member from inside Hagrid's cabin. "Hagrid, perhaps it will be better if you stay inside --" Page 402: "Where is it?" said the reedy voice of the Committee member. "Where is the beast?" Page 404: The moment they disappeared, the tree began to move again. Seconds later, they heard footsteps quite close by. Dumbledore, Macnair, Fudge and the old Committee member were making their way up to the castle. I admit he's a relatively obscure, extremely minor character. So, why go to all the trouble to NOT EVER mention his name? There are some other wizards not mentioned by name (a few in GoF when describing the Quiddich World Cup, for example), but for the most part we at least get a last name when new characters are introduced. Especially for those wizards involved in major-ish plotlines. My personal feeling is that Mr. Oldy Unknown will show up again sometime, possibly in connection to seeing Buckbeak and/or Sirius. But because we never got a name the first time around, if he shows up by name in a future book, we won't necessarily know it's him. Am I making a mountain out of a molehill here? bowlwoman From ultimatesen at aol.com Fri May 2 08:11:46 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:11:46 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56773 Tom: I have had many teachers who start out the year this way. And usually, they start with the kid that everyone thinks is the best in the class. This gives people confidence that no one's better than anyone else..... Now, granted, we know that Harry is actually very concerned about how little he knows, and that he's afraid that he'll be the worst student in his year. *We* know that. But the other students (except for Ron) don't. And the teachers don't, either. Me: Ok.. I'm going to assume something here, which I know is a dangerous thing here especially at 3am. I don't think what you stated is really the case. Everyone knows the story about "The Boy Who Lived" and that night w/ Voldemort unless you'd been living under a rock (or Azkaban) for the last 12 years. Mr. Ollivander says he wondered when he'd be seeing Harry plus you've got to take into consideration the reaction of everyone in the L.C. It seems to me, everyone *pretty much* knew he was out of the WW while he was growing up. McGonagall and Dumbleydore especially because they were there the night Harry was brought to the Dursleys. After living in the muggle world, I don't feel anyone would *expect* him to know much except for whatever natural things he'd done on his own (the examples given in SS). Of course Harry is going to be concerned going to a new & different type of school. Weren't we all when we made that change from Jr High to High School for example? I'd be willing to bet at the very least the teachers would be aware of how little "formal magic" he knows because of McG & DD knowing the *exact* story. I'm also pretty sure Harry's abilities weren't really going through the other students minds. I'm sure everyone was doubting themselves. Well, at least those who came from Muggle families and had no *clue* what to expect. Just a thought.. probably an incomplete thought considering the time. Sen Best work by the light of the moon or incoherent babble? From briony_coote at hotmail.com Fri May 2 10:05:01 2003 From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 22:05:01 +1200 Subject: OOTP: thoughts on why we will learn more about ghosts Message-ID: <000001c31092$4bc558c0$80a7a7cb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 56774 Dear All, I have been wondering about why in OOTP we will learn more about ghosts, why some people become ghosts and others don't. I was also intrigued by the implication that unhappy people come back as ghosts, or, like Myrtle, die with a thought that stops them from departing for the afterlife. This has me thinking: Will the mystery person who dies in OOTP come back as a ghost? If so, what role will that person's unhappiness/dying thought have in bringing him/her back? If this theory is correct, the most likely candidate is Sirius Black. Think about it: if he had died in POA (perhaps throwing himself out of the window to avoid being kissed or something) he would certainly come back as a ghost, protesting his innocence, vowing to hunt Peter down, looking after Harry. I can just see his ghost dog prowling Hogwarts grounds, or butting in on Snape when he picks on Harry in Potions class . hee, hee! If he does die, he would certainly not die lying down - not with that rotten Rat still on the loose. Like a true avenger he would pursue Peter to the end. I can just see fanfic fodder here, too. Sirius Black dying, and coming back as a ghost. Briony [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 2 10:23:14 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 03:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502102314.20995.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56775 Bill wrote: > > Clearly, a lot of thought has gone into this > schedule. I have to say > that I like it quite a bit. > > You are right that more Professors are needed. > > > > Since there are only 35 teaching hours per > week, then at least five > subjects need a second Professor, even with > double classes. Add in > the time spent grading essays, preparing > lessons, etc. and that > number may rise. Lynn: First, thank you. Once in a while I use my brain, though with all the smoke that rises when I do, I have to be careful to have a fire extinguisher ready. LOL As for the number of teachers, there would definitely need to be extra teachers, particularly in light of the electives which may be chosen. For example, Mme. Pomfrey may end up teaching first aid but she wouldn't be available to teach any other classes. Though, it is conceivable that some of the teaching staff could be people from the village of Hogsmeade, say someone coming in to teach how to be a salesperson or how to run a business. A MoM person could come in to teach Civics and Politics. Therefore, the teaching staff may not necessarily be greatly increased within Hogwarts, though I would like to see that. With a JKR estimate of about 250 students per house, there really should be a deputy head of house as well. Lynn (who would fully intend to tell Snape that if he wanted to stay teaching he'd have to wash his hair regularly and have a major attitude adjustment in dealing with students, order the houseelves not to light the fire in Trewlawney's room unless it's cold, tell Binn it's time to 'give up the ghost', help Hagrid make a workable and practical lesson plan and compliment Flitwick for understanding that kids need a break once in a while.) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 2 11:03:58 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 04:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why DD lets Snape be [a nasty git] (WAS Teachers and fairness) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502110358.26824.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56776 --- jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > *Sigh* Apparently, JKR agrees with you, as > Anne has pointed out, but > that doesn't make me like this little life > lesson any more. If I had > a daughter who told me that her teacher > insulted her, threatened her > or embarrassed her, there'd be hell to pay. > There are plenty of > shitty people out there but my children don't > need to sit in their > classes. In reality, teachers do experience > consequences when they > treat students unfairly. More and more, kids > in our world stand up > and talk back to teachers, tell on teachers, > even make strides to get > teachers fired. > > In the WW, I get the feeling that the Hogwarts > students don't often > approach their parents when dealing with a bad > teacher situation. We > never hear Hermione mention telling her parents > about Snape's comments > or Neville swearing he'll send an owl right > away to his formidable > grandmother after Snape threatened to let > Trevor the toad die. Maybe > that is also part of JKR's lesson: if you don't > speak out, deal with > it. It is also a more traditional view of > schooling, where kids > suffer bad teachers in silence. In fact, > students speak back so > rarely to teachers in Hogwarts, everyone is > shocked when Hermione > throws up her hands and walks out of > Trelawney's class. In my school, > kids storm out of their classes all the time. Lynn: Boy do I agree with you and understand your feelings. The students do seem to keep quiet a lot, well, except for Draco apparently. He does complain to his father. I would have liked to see Draco's letter to his father after he was turned into a ferret and really want to know how his father replied. Draco to Father: "Daddy, that Mad-Eye idiot turned me into a ferret in front of everybody and bounced me all over the Entrance Hall. 'sniff sniff' All because my wand accidently went off and the curse almost hit Scarface." Father to Draco: "STAY AWAY FROM POTTER! How many times have I told you that you stupid boy! Keep your wand in your pocket and it won't go off. Start using some of that brain you're supposed to have. The last thing we need now is Moody getting anywhere near our family." Personally, I think the reason the kids don't complain is because they don't believe anyone will do anything about it; and apparently they are right. It seems to me the students aren't learning how to deal with nasty people, they are just learning how to take it. They should be learning how to stand up to injustice and what steps to take to insure that those committing the injustice are properly dealt with. With the incident in GoF and Snape's infamous "I see no difference" remark, what do the students learn? Well, the Gryffindor students learned that if you try standing up to injustice you get punished and the Slytherins learn that if you back the strongest horse, even if it is the nastiest, you can get away with murder. It seems to me that Dumbledore has not been teaching his students to do what is right rather than what is easy but rather the opposite. It's much easier to not stand up to injustice and the students appear to have learned this lesson well. That being said, now that I'm thinking in this vein, it may be one reason Dumbledore gives those ridiculous points some people have complained about. It may well be Dumbledore's way of showing that there are rewards as well when someone does what is right over what is easy. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 2 12:16:19 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 05:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502121619.39295.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56777 Sen wrote: > Tom: > > Now, granted, we know that Harry is actually > very concerned about how > little he knows, and that he's afraid that > he'll be the worst student > in his year. *We* know that. But the other > students (except for Ron) > don't. And the teachers don't, either. > > Sen: > > > > It seems to me, > everyone *pretty much* knew > he was out of the WW while he was growing up. > McGonagall and > Dumbleydore especially because they were there > the night Harry was > brought to the Dursleys. After living in the > muggle world, I don't > feel anyone would *expect* him to know much > except for whatever > natural things he'd done on his own (the > examples given in SS). Of > course Harry is going to be concerned going to > a new & different type > of school. Weren't we all when we made that > change from Jr High to > High School for example? I'd be willing to bet > at the very least the > teachers would be aware of how little "formal > magic" he knows because > of McG & DD knowing the *exact* story. I'm also > pretty sure Harry's > abilities weren't really going through the > other students minds. I'm > sure everyone was doubting themselves. Well, at > least those who came > from Muggle families and had no *clue* what to > expect. Lynn: Yes, I do think the teachers knew the whole story and were very aware that Harry knows very little 'formal magic'. To be fair though, the students outside of Gryffindor may see Harry as something other than he is, after all, the Gryffindors have been having classes with Harry and by now realize he's pretty much at the same place they are. It appears the WW has endowed Harry with superhuman abilities and that's been passed on to the kids. Now, intelligent, rational and logical people would realize that a 1 year old could not have vanquished Voldemort all by his little old self but it doesn't appear there are a whole lot of intelligent, rational and logical people out there. Even the students from Muggle families appear to know who Harry is. If Snape had asked the questions without the extra commentary we might have been looking at this situation as a common teaching tool - though I think the first I don't know should have been sufficient but hey, Snape didn't appear to think his students were too bright and he thought they may have needed extra verification. He must obviously have been thinking this of the Slytherins since, as pointed out above, the Gryffindors would already know how much or little Harry knows and by now would not be intimidated by him. I think the reaction of the class to Harry's comment to Snape to try Hermione for the answer is in response to their realization that Snape was unfairly picking on Harry. I don't think there would have been that same response had Snape merely been using a teaching tool. ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rane_ab at hotmail.com Fri May 2 12:48:57 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 12:48:57 -0000 Subject: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56778 First of all, I would like to apologise for using the b-word in the title to msg #56710 and using it *again* in msg #56718. I didn't realise this would be considered a curse, but as it seems it is, I dod hope nobody took offense. I must say, I'm rather amazed the word "git" wouldn't be considered a curse then (had I known, I would have used *that* word (git) instead). My inly possible excuse is that I'm not a native English speaker. Which is still a pretty lame excuse. So once again, I apologise. Of the 6 or 7 msgs I have as yet posted here, only two came through without any comment from the Elves. I guess I am a problem person. :-) *looks mildly ashamed* I'm sorry for any inconvenience. Anyway, this reaction comes a bit late, too, but I had to re-edit it (no, not for using offending language, just because my quote was too long - I don't always do majorly bad things :-) ) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > I see 4 reasons for Fudge's attitude change between CoS and GoF: > > 1) He's in denial and saying the first thing he can think of to try > and shut Dumbledore up > 2) He's in possession of some evil mojo and knows he'll be able to > influence the governors > 3) The rules have changed in the two years between the two scenarios > and he CAN make the decision instead of the governors > 4) There's a discrepancy in the narrative between the 2 books > > I feel that he's got some evil mojo going on and he thinks he'll be > able to influence the current governors in a decision to curtail > Dumbledore's authority or remove him altogether. I think there's > just too much going on with Fudge to have his actions simply be the > result of loving his office too much and/or being in denial. That > reasoning is an effective smokescreen to attempt to justify some > actions (taking Hagrid to Azkaban when the Chamber was opened again, > for example), but the Dementor kissing Crouch, Jr., is a little too > hardcore to be chalked up to keeping the WW from going hysterical. I > think he didn't want Crouch, Jr. to talk to anyone else for fear of > what he might reveal (no canon, just a gut feeling). > I wonder how far Dumbledore will > go in defying the MoM before Fudge finally snaps? > > Me: (sorry if this lookes like a quote, I had to re-edit it) I'm not really sure what you mean when you say Fudge has some evil > mojo. (what *is* a mojo, exactly, BTW?) Do you think Fudge is on > Voldemort's side, or that he's just working for himself? > > In the first case, I guess you proved yourself that would be quite > odd, considering he *didn't* want DD to get suspended in CoS; and > he did have Harry practically alone at the Leaky Cauldron after Harry > escaped from his aunt and uncle's in PoA. He could easily have hurt > him then. Instead, he seems genuinely relieved at seeing Harry, even > letting him off the hook for the "accident" with his Aunt Marge - > thus placing Harry back at Hogwarts and under Dumbledore's care. > > So I'm presuming you mean the second, but I'm not sure where you're > getting at, then, either. If Fudge's behaviour *isn't* due to the > fact that he likes his office too much, then what could possibly be > his motive? > > I know J.K. likes to make us believe some characters are a certain > way, and then reveals them to be sth different. But all characters > can't be like that - that would be ridiculous. So I'm a bit hesitant > when it comes to believing Fudge isn't what he seems to be. He seems > quite genuine in his actions, and would have to be a good actor. > > As for Fudge's power over DD - pfew, you're making quite a point > there! Hadn't really noticed it. I'm not sure how it works, but I > always saw the Minister of Magic as some kind of Prime Minister for > the magic world. So you'd think he'd be able to overrule the board of > governors when it comes down to it, wouldn't you? > Perhaps he can, but it would really require him to put his foot down, > and he doesn't exactly strike me as being a strong person, so I don't > think he was very inclined to going against Lucius Malfoy in CoS > (especially as he seems to like LM). > > If he can't exactly overrule the board, I can still imagine he'd have > a great deal of power over them: being the Minister of Magic, I'm > sure he could make the governors' lives hell if he put his mind to > it. Why did the governors then suspend DD in CoS? Again, Fudge > doesn't exactly come across as a strong person, and were I on the > board of the governors, I'm sure I'd be more scared of LM than of > Fudge, too. > > Why finally threaten DD after all at the end of GoF? Well, I think > your first theory is right - he's scared and in denial. Threatening > DD (well-knwn powerful wizard and friend of Fudge's, it seems) must > still be less frightening than being faced with the possibility of LV > coming back. > > OTOH, perhaps Fudge doens't have the power (according to wizarding > law) to get DD fired, but perhaps he does have some important say in > the curriculum, or at least the way the school is run. As such, he > could make DD's life miserable, by, say, insisting that Hagrid be > fired (considering he's a half-giant) or other things like that. > After all, he's not literally threatening to sack DD, is he? > > > What confuses me, too, now that I come to think of it, is why the > board let Lupin (if they knew about him being a werewolf - and > Fudge's remark about letting DD keep werewolves at the school seems > to suggest at least he knew Lupin was one before it was made public) > and Hagrid teach? It always seems like it's DD's decision, but if > they (the governors) are capable of deciding whether or not DD should > remain headmaster, is seems to me they must have some say about the > teachers...? Yet there is no mention of that. Perhaps they are all > very open-minded, but somehow, I have my doubts about that. OTOH, I > guess Harry wouldn't know about any commotion inside the board of > governors, would he? He'd only know the outcome, I guess (the fact > that Hagrid is still there teaching). > > > I think I'm just confusing matters further, aren't I? > This just isn't my day. ;-) > > Well, this is all just my opinion, and I really dodn't have any proof > to support it, but anyway, there it is... > > Rane, > who has succesfully managed to confuse even herself. From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri May 2 12:04:33 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 12:04:33 -0000 Subject: Curriculum In-Reply-To: <004d01c3100e$a5115930$39ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: where I have Personally, I've always wondered whether > Moody/Crouch Jr. can be believed on this one. I mean, I can see DD, having > reason to believe we might be seeing V come back within the next couple of > years, wanting fourth year students (keeping in mind Harry and his friends > are in this class) knowing what they're going to be seeing/facing, but I can > also see Crouch Jr. making that bit about DD's approval up for his own > agenda. Maybe he thought Harry would be terrified at seeing AK performed. > Then again, if he was doing it for his own reasons, then why teach them all > how to throw off the Imperius Curse? > Actually my own theory is the Crouch Jr. did it to upset Neville. Remember that Crouch Jr. went to prison because of what he did to Neville's parents. And if the memory charm theory is true, and Neville did witness it, it maybe possible that somehow Neville helped get Crouch convicted. So as a little payback, he used the DADA class to show Neville what his parents went through that Neville may have forgoten. As to the imperius curse, I've never understood why Crouch Jr. did that except maybe he was testing their mettle, see how they would stand up against it, in case he needed to imperius anyone. Serena From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Fri May 2 12:05:06 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 12:05:06 -0000 Subject: JKR and the House system Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56780 Hi, something struck me few days ago, partly inspired by the "Is there anything that bothers you in the Potterverse" topic: JKR has stated in at least one interview that I've heard (I believe there's a link to it in the Lexicon), that she once had a terrible teacher who seated kids in class according to how smart she thought they were. First, she was put at the back with the stupid kids, and later had to change places with her best friend, who had until then sat in the front row with the supposedly bright kids. JKR said she thought this to be a terrible system (I agree.) On the other hand, doesn't the House system of Hogwarts actually do something pretty similar? Sure, the characteristics of every house are given in positive terms: Hufflepuffs are not stupid, but nice, Slytherins are not nasty and evil, but cunning. Still, if somebody gets sorted into Hufflepuff, the word goes ruond that he's not exactly the brightest of souls. And everybody considers Slytherins to be evil. The very idea of sorting kids into houses according to their certain characteristics is, I think, almost as horrible as JKR's school seating. It also gives them much less opportunity to develop their personalities. If you only see people similar to yourself around you, you will eventually become very limited in your opinions, don't you think? Sorry if this has already been brought up (odds are that it has, as has everything...) Alice, a half-Brit Hungarian, new to the list and loving it From kiatrier at yahoo.com Fri May 2 13:13:01 2003 From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:13:01 -0000 Subject: OOTP: thoughts on why we will learn more about ghosts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56781 >>>>I have been wondering about why in OOTP we will learn more about ghosts, why some people become ghosts and others don't. I was also intrigued by the implication that unhappy people come back as ghosts, or, like Myrtle, die with a thought that stops them from departing for the afterlife. This has me thinking: Will the mystery person who dies in OOTP come back as a ghost? If so, what role will that person's unhappiness/dying thought have in bringing him/her back? <<<<<<<<<< Rowling herself answered the question of : "What makes some witches/wizards become ghosts after they die and some not? " With: "You don't really find that out until Book VII, but I can say that the happiest people do not become ghosts. As you might guess, Moaning Myrtle! " So I don't think we will learn more about them in OotP. I always thought that this might fit in the Stoned!Christian Symbolism! Ressurection!Harry scenario, because it would allow her to make death final, while not making it final at all. I don't think that she would promise us a deeper look into how to become a ghost without actually someone becoming a ghost in Book VII - and from whose point of view we would know best how and why you become a ghost? Harry's. Well those are my two cents of speculation anyway. Kia From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri May 2 13:39:49 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:39:49 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Two Filks For The Price Of One! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56782 In my continuing effort to see every Beatles song filked, I wrote: >now how in the world am I going to filk _Revolution Number 9_ ? Well...shortly after posting this question, Beatle-freak Extraordinaire Maria wrote me off-list with this great suggestion. So allow me to present... Revelation: Sirius (A FILK by Maria to the tune of _Revolution Number Nine_ by the Beatles) Can you believe they have a Midi for this? http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html It's lame, lame, lame. I suggest you go and get your White Album out and listen to the original...preferably with headsets on so you can really appreciate the funky stereo thing going on down on this track. Blow your mind away. If you don't have the White Album, then shame on you! With that said: The Scene: Azkaban. Sirius Black is incarcerated and being mentally tortured by the Dementors with the horrible memories for his past (which include his participation during the Voldemort War, going to school at Hogwarts, and Quidditch matches of long ago). But just yesterday he was given a newspaper from the Minister of Magic. Sirius saw the rat's picture and he's at Hogwarts. It has become an obsession now, to escape from Azkaban and seek revenge against the person who betrayed his trust. And so, even though these memories keep flashing in his mind, Sirius keeps himself focused by repeating the name of this individual over and over again... Sirius: Pettigrew...Pettigrew...Pettigrew... ********************************************************* Okay, now that that's over with, here is another filk to make it worth your while: I Am A Werewolf (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I Am The Walrus_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle14.html Dedicated to the above mentioned Maria because she put in the request...sorry about making you wait so long, babe. Note...the "a-a-arooo" bit is supposed to be the sound of a wolf howling, okay? Lupin: You are there and I'm aware that you are scared because I am a werewolf See how I'm shunned by everyone they do not know I'm lonely Turn into a werewolf, bitten when I was quite young Hogwarts School of Magic, Dumbledore Headmaster Man, I never thought that I would be able to attend My name is Lupin, Remus J. Lupin I am a werewolf...a-a-arooo! Madame Pomphrey, each month takes me She takes me to the Womping Willow There I will change, my body rearrange into a wolf I'm changing, I'm changing I'm changing, I'm changing Animagi buddies, Wormtail and Padfoot and Prongs Young and thoughtless students, dangerous near misses Boy, the fun we had running all around the school grounds My name is Lupin, Remus J. Lupin I am a werewolf...a-a-arooo! Sitting in the Shrieking Shack now, waiting for the moon When the moon comes soon I will transform My form will become a monster My name is Lupin, Remus J. Lupin I am a werewolf...a-a-arooo! With this illness, painful changes Feeling estranged from other people Hear how I growl like a wolf on the prowl Hear how I yowl I'm howling Greasy git Severus, watching from a Hogwarts tower Hopes to get us expelled, trying always spying Man, he sees me leave and he wants to know where I go My name is Lupin, Remus J. Lupin I am a werewolf...a-a-arooo a-a-arooo! A-a-arooo, a-a-arooo arooo! -Gail B...remember, the Walrus was Paul...goo goo g'joob. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri May 2 14:04:09 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina Rosich) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House... In-Reply-To: <165.1f35141f.2be35a56@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030502140409.77482.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56783 Sunnylove0 at aol.com wrote: In a world with Dark Lords, Killing Curses, Dementors, werewolves, vampires, Azkaban with no trial, basilisks, acromantulas, dragons, veelas, etc., I'm of the opinion that a nasty teacher like Snape is simply a beginner's lesson in dealing with adversity and that not everyone, and especially not the aforementioned are going to "be nice" just because you come from a nice family, are an A student, or happen to be the Boy Who Lived. but if the Trio is going to be involved in the next Voldemort War, they better have a better response than instant instinctive attack(Ron and to a lesser extent, Harry) or covering their faces and bursting into tears(Hermione). IMHO, if the Trio is to conquer Voldemort they must learn to deal with Snape. And Dumbledore knows it. Throw rocks if you want, but to quote bboy-mn, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. The Queen of Serpents ME: I couldn't agree more. And JKR has herself said in interviews, on this question, that Dumbledore believes in teaching all kinds of lessons. Snape repeatedly tries to get the kids to control their impulses, mind their safety and the efforts others put into place to mind their safety, etc. Also, on the subject of Harry, from other posts. I'm not so sure I agree that everyone knows Harry grew up in a muggle family with no exposure to the wizarding world. Hagrid was astonished that Harry didn't know his own story. Didn't know he was a wizard. Didn't know how his parents died, and that he was 'the boy who lived.' I think it's safe to assume that most people think Harry comes into the school with *some* background information. Furthermore, from the moment people find out who he is, they strain to see him. He's checked out on the train, in the great hall at dinner, and also breakfast the next day. From the minute he arrives, he's treated as special by the other kids. And we know for a fact that certain adults treat Harry with kid gloves. A recurrent theme for Snape is to not treat Harry as special at all--specifically to keep the boy from having a swelled head so he's not overconfident in combat. But if he tells Harry that, his strategy will likely not work. Like many others here, I believe he has Harry's best interest at heart. He's just not a warm and fuzzy guy. Gina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jeanico at securenet.net Fri May 2 13:10:18 2003 From: jeanico at securenet.net (jeanico2000) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:10:18 -0000 Subject: Quote from GOF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56784 "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the quote properly. Nicole From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri May 2 14:41:49 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20030502102314.20995.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030502144149.80251.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56785 Just a really quick comment here. Bill and Lynn both proposed a class "Magical Theory." However, in PS there is a book on Harry's list that's called "Magical Theory." I don't recall it ever being used, but I imagine that the students are supposed to read it, out of class, maybe. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzchiles at pobox.com Fri May 2 14:40:55 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 07:40:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56786 Tom Wall said: > I have had many teachers who start out the year this way. And > usually, they start with the kid that everyone thinks is the best in > the class. This gives people confidence that no one's better than > anyone else. And Snape didn't actually ridicule or insult Harry he > simply demonstrated that just because you're famous doesn't mean > you're the best student in the class. > > Now, granted, we know that Harry is actually very concerned about how > little he knows, and that he's afraid that he'll be the worst student > in his year. *We* know that. But the other students (except for Ron) > don't. And the teachers don't, either. But Snape surely knows that Harry was raised by Muggles and only ever knew he had magical abilities a mere month (give or take a day) before starting at Hogwarts. As far as I'm concerned, no one can possibly justify Snape's personal attacks on students in his role as a teacher. Even if Snape was justified in demonstrating that Harry didn't know everything, as soon as he said "Clearly, fame isn't everything." he lost any moral ground that he had gained. Suzanne From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Fri May 2 15:01:00 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:01:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quote from GOF References: Message-ID: <020601c310bb$a577da90$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56787 Nicole wrote: > Why does he compare Lily to his father? > was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's > parents were a wizard and a witch. Any > thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not > understanding the quote properly. He's referring to Lily coming from a Muggle family - just like Hermione Granger. Lily was a "mudblood," if you will. But you're right that it's a strange comparison. Voldemort's father WAS a full-blooded Muggle. Lily was not. I assume he was trying to insult Lily a bit to anger Harry. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From r.e.ward at durham.ac.uk Fri May 2 15:07:25 2003 From: r.e.ward at durham.ac.uk (Rachael Ward) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:07:25 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quote from GOF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200305021607.28435.r.e.ward@durham.ac.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 56788 On Friday 02 May 2003 14:10, jeanico2000 wrote: > "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he > hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." > I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to > move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks > to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? > was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a > witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the > quote properly. > Nicole I should think that he meant that Lily is Muggle-born. After all, we know that Lily and James were head boy and girl, and that Lily's wand was 'a nice wand for charm work' (Philosophers Stone) Rach From acb at ismennt.is Fri May 2 15:17:33 2003 From: acb at ismennt.is (Anna Benassi) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:17:33 +0000 Subject: Crouch teaching Unforgivables References: <1051883062.6481.68806.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3EB28C0C.F5053602@ismennt.is> No: HPFGUIDX 56789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: where I have Personally, I've always wondered whether > Moody/Crouch Jr. can be believed on this one. I mean, I can see DD, having > reason to believe we might be seeing V come back within the next couple of > years, wanting fourth year students (keeping in mind Harry and his friends > are in this class) knowing what they're going to be seeing/facing, but I can > also see Crouch Jr. making that bit about DD's approval up for his own > agenda. Maybe he thought Harry would be terrified at seeing AK performed. > Then again, if he was doing it for his own reasons, then why teach them all > how to throw off the Imperius Curse? Hello, all...I'm a newbie here. As far as the Unforgivables teaching is concerned, I've always been of the opinion that Moody!Crouch Jr. was simply giving the most accurate "Mad-Eye" performance he could. Dumbledore knows Moody incredibly well, and therefore Crouch had to teach this specific subject (and all others, of course) in a Moody enough manner so as not to arouse suspicion. Dumbledore picked up on Moody!Crouch Jr.'s secret identity right away when he (Crouch) didn't bring Harry to him (Dumbledore) immediately after the Tournament. Why wouldn't DD have picked up on it if M!C Jr. had balked at teaching them how to resist Imperius? For M!C Jr, seeing Harry and Neville in pain was probably just an added benefit to playing his role extra well...twisted, sick creep that he is... ciao, Mara Helga From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 15:43:06 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quote from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502154306.38145.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56790 Nicole wrote: "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the quote properly. Nicole ME: I think that according to Voldemoret anybody from muggle parents is still, by his standards a muggle. Remember, only "pure bloods" are worthy witches and wizards and so he's discrediting her as a witch on the grounds of her parantage. That at least is the obvious "surface" explanation. There always could be some deeper connotation that we haven't been perview to yet. As far as being a fool, he was prepared to let her run away and live but she stayed and sacraficed her life for Harry. According to Voldemort's attitudes and philosophy of life, indeed only a fool would sacrafice their life for somebody else. Even their own offspring. Voldemort sure wouldn't (if he had any). Huggs Becky Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paul.richmond at motorola.com Fri May 2 15:23:05 2003 From: paul.richmond at motorola.com (Richmond Paul-ra9250) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:23:05 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56791 Maria Wrote: > in PS there is a book on Harry's list that's called > "Magical Theory." I don't recall it ever being used, > but I imagine that the students are supposed to read > it, out of class, maybe. Well, I have a speculation. A number of the basic classes at Hogwarts seem to be grounded in theory as well as practice. I imagine the "Magical Theory" textbook as a general textbook not specific to any one class. It seems like it would be useful in Charms class, Transfiguration class, and perhaps Potions as well. - Paul From meboriqua at aol.com Fri May 2 15:55:24 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:55:24 -0000 Subject: OotP: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore? Evil!Fudge?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ephilipbar at a... wrote: I > was getting concerned about all the "smiling" Fudge does at the end of GoF when he, DD, etc. are having the discussion about LV's return. There are at least three occasions where Fudge is noted to be "smiling" or "hiding a smile". As I was reading GoF for the upteenth time, this started to make me concerned for Harry and DD in subsequent books. Fudge is definately in denial; could he be something worse????> I'm sure this has been said many times before, but the beauty in Fudge's character would be if he was not actively allied with the DEs in any way. To me, Fudge is a very typical beauracrat(sp?). He smiles and denies simply because he does not want to deal with the work he'd have to do if he admitted that Voldemort has risen again. He is more concerned with his reputation and with keeping the WW in ignorant bliss than with doing what is right. Unlike Dumbledore, Fudge is choosing what is easy (one of JKR's lessons as well). It is easy to continue being the Minister of Magic who keeps Voldemort down than the one who let him rise again. While Fudge himself may not be evil, the consequences of his selfish motives may be very ugly. He has trusted Dumbledore to run Hogwarts without MoM intervention because Dumbledore is trustworthy (and possibly because it was easy for Fudge to do so). Dumbledore is largely respected throughout the WW and Fudge is ridiculous for refusing to listen to him, Harry, Snape... now. Haven't we seen again and again in history that it is just as dangerous to stand and by and do nothing or to deny as it is to engage in criminal/violent/hateful behavior? Fudge is a pawn and someone up there with Voldemort knows that and will use him well. --jenny from ravenclaw ********************************************* From meboriqua at aol.com Fri May 2 15:55:39 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:55:39 -0000 Subject: OotP: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore? Evil!Fudge?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ephilipbar at a... wrote: I > was getting concerned about all the "smiling" Fudge does at the end of GoF when he, DD, etc. are having the discussion about LV's return. There are at least three occasions where Fudge is noted to be "smiling" or "hiding a smile". As I was reading GoF for the upteenth time, this started to make me concerned for Harry and DD in subsequent books. Fudge is definately in denial; could he be something worse????> I'm sure this has been said many times before, but the beauty in Fudge's character would be if he was not actively allied with the DEs in any way. To me, Fudge is a very typical beauracrat(sp?). He smiles and denies simply because he does not want to deal with the work he'd have to do if he admitted that Voldemort has risen again. He is more concerned with his reputation and with keeping the WW in ignorant bliss than with doing what is right. Unlike Dumbledore, Fudge is choosing what is easy (one of JKR's lessons as well). It is easy to continue being the Minister of Magic who keeps Voldemort down than the one who let him rise again. While Fudge himself may not be evil, the consequences of his selfish motives may be very ugly. He has trusted Dumbledore to run Hogwarts without MoM intervention because Dumbledore is trustworthy (and possibly because it was easy for Fudge to do so). Dumbledore is largely respected throughout the WW and Fudge is ridiculous for refusing to listen to him, Harry, Snape... now. Haven't we seen again and again in history that it is just as dangerous to stand and by and do nothing or to deny as it is to engage in criminal/violent/hateful behavior? Fudge is a pawn and someone up there with Voldemort knows that and will use him well. --jenny from ravenclaw ********************************************* From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri May 2 16:08:20 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:08:20 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: <20030502001622.56635.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > From the beginning, Snape colors his attitude > toward Harry with his feelings toward James. Is > that an adult attitude? me: Unfortunately, yes. It's an Adult Human Attitude. Not a very nice one, but have you ever heard a child say: "What do you expect, after all, 'the apple never falls far from the tree'." How many really "nice" people do you know--how many of them are nice to *everyone*? Now, how many of those are *genuinely* nice? Severus Snape is considerably LESS nice than most--and probably ONLY because he doesn't bother to PRETEND to be nice. But he's certainly NOT alone in visiting the sins of the father upon the son. One shudders to think what Sirius Black Jr. would suffer in his classes. (well actually, this "one" doesn't, this "one" would probably enjoy every minute of it) Mel From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri May 2 17:00:10 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 17:00:10 -0000 Subject: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: > Annemehr wrote: > > The second point is that the school newspaper article said the source > of the "fan" quote was a recent CNN interview (so, in 2002 I guess). > The two above points say to me that there is the possibility that CNN > did some JKR interviews which they did not keep in their archives. > This is sad news to me! The only interview the site does have is her > appearance on Larry King. > > Me: > Didn't we try to look for the 'fan' quote a while ago? I don't think > anyone found it then. Annemehr: Yes, that's what I was referring to. > > But anyway, I ran a search on Aberforth's Goat for the word 'fan' and > the quote didn't crop up, although I admit I don't know how reliable > the search engine is. The Lexicon also doesn't have the quote listed. > > The only CNN interview that was listed on Aberforth's was the Larry > King one. I read it all the way through and the quote wasn't there. I > didn't see the 1999 video interview there, but you're right - it's a > bit early for the 'fan' quote. Annemehr: Well, like I said, it seems like a dead link, so I'm not surprised. I was just hoping someone had downloaded it or something before it disappeared. > > Personally, I think that this has "RUMOUR" written all over it. Annemehr: That's very likely. However, if the student newspaper was accurate, it may have actually happened and CNN (or whoever) never archived it. From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Fri May 2 16:10:23 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (xmezumiiru) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:10:23 -0000 Subject: Timeline Speculations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56796 I have thought of some interesting things regarding the timeline of events. I was reading the books and ran across these lines: [Dumbledore said,] "We've had precious little to celebrate for eleven years." (HP&PS/SS, USpb, pp. 10) [Wizarding card read,] " defeat of the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945 "(HP&PS/SS, USpb, pp. 103) [Riddle wrote,] "In my fifth year..." (HP&CoS, USpb, pp. 241) [D. Malfoy said,] "Of course, it was fifty years ago, so it was before his [L. Malfoy's] time..." (HP&CoS, USpb, pp. 223) Therefore, I have come up with a question that I will post at the end after I put together a reasonable timeline. Known facts: 1926: Tom M. Riddle born (calculated from above cited quotes) 1942: Chamber of Secrets opened for the first time by Riddle (calculated from above cited quotes) 1945: The Defeat of Grindelwald by Albus Dumbledore; Riddle graduates from Hogwarts (calculated from above cited quotes) 1970: Beginning of Voldemort's Reign of Terror (calculated according to above cited quote) 1980: Harry Potter is born 1981: Voldemort is beaten for the first time 1991: H. Potter begins Hogwarts Assumed facts: 1971-1977: Marauders' and Severus Snape's school years (if assume Snape is 31 at the beginning of (HP&PS/SS) Since Voldemort's Reign of Terror began before the Marauders' and Snape's graduation, Snape and the rest of his classmates could not have been the original Death Eaters. Therefore, there must have been another set of (older) people that were Death Eaters before them. It would be logical then to assume that the generation (I use generation as in groups of ages [i.e. Baby Boomer generation or Generation X], not as familial generations) that included the Marauder's and Snape's parents and the generation in between the Marauders' and Snape's parents and the Marauders and Snape were these Death Eaters and fighters. But there is no evidence in the books that states there are elder Death Eaters beyond Snape's classmates. That means they are 1) unnamed, 2) retired, or 3) dead. If the generation that included the Marauder's and Snape's parents served under Voldemort, then they would have been to Hogwarts themselves during Grindelwald's Reign of Terror and thus, classmates of Riddle. Conjuncture: Going by the timeline I have created, there is a 25 year gap between the time Riddle graduated and Voldemort began his Reign of Terror. This is an awfully long time. So what was he doing? The obvious answer to that is he was studying the Dark Arts and ways to make himself immortal. Riddle would have begun his studies of the Dark Arts right after Grindelwald fell. In our own history, there is more than ample evidence that show anything that is related to a tyrant or dictator is destroyed and beaten back for years (i.e. Hussain in current times, Hitler after WWII, the Witch Trails, Akenaton of Egypt). I doubt that the wizarding world would be any different, although the only evidence of this is Hagrid's reluctance to even allude to Voldemort's name. (HP&PP/SS USpb, pp. 54) Where would Riddle have gone, then, to gain that knowledge of the Dark Arts if everyone was so afraid of it? And what took so long for his return? If he was afraid of Dumbledore, why did he choose that particular time to become popular again. Surly, if Voldemort had found the secret of living forever, or merely extending his life, he would have waited the next two decades before Dumbledore died, as Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. That wait would have made him about 70 years old, as old as McGonagall. Perhaps he used his (young) ages 40-50 to lure his first army of Death Eater, which would have been just about his age and the following generation. But even so, 25 years is a long time. Hitler needed only a few years to convince his people to rise against the world. He emerged from prison in 1925 and led the first military march in 1926. In 1931, he was named President of the Nazi party and 1933, dictator. In 1936, he led his armies to their first military takeover of another country. (_Hitler: A Study of Tyranny_; Bullock, Alan; First Perennial Library; 1971) To conclude, Hitler needed eight years to take over his country and eleven to take over another. We all know the story from there, so I will not reiterate. Granted, Hitler knew much of politics and war- craft, being a "Meldeganger", a messenger, but did not Riddle have magic training in Hogwarts? So I ask again, what was Voldemort doing in the 26 year gap? Where would Riddle have gone to gain that knowledge of the Dark Arts? What was so special about 1970 that he started then and not before? Was he waiting for a special group of people to come into power, or leave power? Perhaps he was for the government that presided over Grindelwald's time to leave, as this would be the relative time the last would. Another idea is that if (big if) the Marauders' and Snape's parents were the original Death Eater, and their parents were the followers of Grindelwald, perhaps familial obligations are not so far fetched in the making of the Death Eater and hence the ultimate bias against Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and others in Slytherin in H. Potter's generation is not as childish as first appears. Any thoughts or comments? Chris -who lays awake at night because of a cold PS: Thanks be to Kathryn Cawte and Anna Benassi for help with the correct dates. From t.forch at mail.dk Fri May 2 17:15:49 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 19:15:49 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030502191213.00d74a20@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 56797 At 17:00 02-05-03 +0000, Annemehr wrote: >Annemehr: >Well, like I said, it seems like a dead link, so I'm not surprised. I >was just hoping someone had downloaded it or something before it >disappeared. > > > Personally, I think that this has "RUMOUR" written all over it. > >Annemehr: >That's very likely. However, if the student newspaper was accurate, >it may have actually happened and CNN (or whoever) never archived it. Personally I have yet (despite having asked just about everyone for it for the last six months) to hear from anyone who would claim to have just seen such an interview. I have come to believe that no such quotation exists (though that of course does not preclude the possibility that one or more of the deaths in book 5 can be called fans of Harry - that is still very likely, IMO). Troels From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Fri May 2 15:50:41 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:50:41 -0000 Subject: Quote from GOF In-Reply-To: <200305021607.28435.r.e.ward@durham.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56798 > On Friday 02 May 2003 14:10, jeanico2000 wrote: > > "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he > > hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." > > I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to > > move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks > > to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? > > was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a > > witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the > > quote properly. > > Nicole I think that he is referring to the "fool" part of the sentence. He then goes on to say that in death, they both had their uses, which I think is a disgusting thing to say, but that's Voldemort for you. I think that the parallel between Tom Riddle Sr and Lily Potter just adds more pain for Harry, because of her being compared to something so closely related to Voldemort. It is definitely a very strange comparison, between a muggle and a witch - referred to as a muggle :S Could it be a mistake? Any thoughts? addictedtobass2003 Katie From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Fri May 2 16:19:34 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:19:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OotP: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore? Evil!Fudge?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1051892374.3eb29a9617ba7@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 56799 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ephilipbar at a... wrote: > Fudge is definately in denial; could he be > something worse????> > Quoting jenny_ravenclaw : > While Fudge himself may not be evil, the consequences of his selfish > motives may be very ugly. He has trusted Dumbledore to run Hogwarts > without MoM intervention because Dumbledore is trustworthy (and > possibly because it was easy for Fudge to do so). Dumbledore is > largely respected throughout the WW and Fudge is ridiculous for > refusing to listen to him, Harry, Snape... now. Haven't we seen > again and again in history that it is just as dangerous to stand and > by and do nothing or to deny as it is to engage in > criminal/violent/hateful behavior? Fudge is a pawn and someone up > there with Voldemort knows that and will use him well. > I have to speak up and say, I agree with this. It has long been my theory that given the closeness of Malfoy Sr. to Fudge and his "donations" and all. Malfoy would certainly tell Voldemort who could be controlled, if only to redeem himself in his master's eyes. I don't believe him (Fudge)to be evil, per se. I think simply he is what his name suggests "a bungler" and a blowhard. He is "blinded by the love of the office" he holds. He doesn't want to admit to a HUGE mistake and he will do whatever it takes to look good. I can see him sitting down to tea with Malfoy and BOOM....he is under control. Amber ~~ a newbie who will hang her head in shame if she is deemed "repeatable" ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 2 15:53:35 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:53:35 -0000 Subject: My three questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56800 Having recently finished GoF, I have the following three questions, though the second really pertains to SS. (1) Why was Dumbledore seemingly unable to detect Crouch as Moody? You'd think old Albus would have some devices or powers for this sort of thing, but he seems only human... er, Muggle... in this instance. Back in SS, he also was seemingly unable to detect the presence of Voldemort on Quirrell's head, and you'd think that someone would pick that up, which leads me to the next question. (2) Assuming that Voldemort became a permanent part of Quirrell at some point, at least until the end of SS, why did Harry's scar not hurt *every* time that Quirrell/Voldemort was nearby? Yes, there are instances where the scar hurts inexplicably (to Harry), but I don't get the impression that it always hurt in Quirrell's presence later in the book, and you wouldn't think that Quirrell would have to be that far away for the effect to work. (3) Coming back to GoF, why did Krum catch the snitch at the World Quidditch Cup? Ron's explanation at the time (that Krum saw the game as hopeless and wanted to end it his way) did not feel convincing at the time, and I fully expected another explanation to emerge during the course of the book. None did. Further, can we possibly believe that Fred and George Weasley made their absurd bet with Bagman without some prior knowledge about the outcome? Certainly they wouldn't have wanted to throw away their money. Ersatz Harry PS Another fun anagram: Bartemius Crouch = Cruciatus Hombre From catherinemck at hotmail.com Fri May 2 15:39:23 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 15:39:23 -0000 Subject: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20030430210115.38415.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > --- Bill wrote: > > So Voldemort had been defeated, and celebrations are underway. > > Tragically, Albus Dumbledore chokes to death on a Lemon Drop during > > the festivities. The Deputy Headmistress, Prof. McGonnagall, has run > > off to the South Pacific with Madam Hooch. A desperate Ministry of > > Magic turns to YOU and asks you to take over at Hogwarts. They tell > > you that you have complete freedom to make any changes you deem > > necessary, and funding to do so. You accept the offer. What do you > > do? I would appoint a competant DADA Professor! Much as one hesitates to agree with Lucius Malfoy, Dumbledore's record as a headmaster is questionable in this area at least. The record of which we are aware runs: host to the Dark Lord (poss. not an incentive to be particularly effective), dangerous fraud, werewolf (symptoms not 100% controlled), paranoid maniac who turns out to be Voldemort's henchman. The Governors really should have looked into this! Catherine McK (dipping a toe in the water) From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Fri May 2 17:22:41 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 17:22:41 -0000 Subject: Moody/Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rane_ab" wrote: (in 'An Eye and an Egg' - or was that title the other way around?) Now me: Actually, it's a classic JKR humorous reference to a title of a book that was popular in the 50's or so. The book was The Egg and I, which is a story about misadventures in chicken farming. Hence, the chapter title must be The Egg and Eye to promote the joke. ~ Constance Vigilance OT post script - the author of The Egg and I got TB after publishing her book and wrote a sequel - The Plague and I. Sorry - I've been laughing at that title for 30 years and had to share. From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 17:30:26 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030502191213.00d74a20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030502173026.24426.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56803 Troels Forchhammer wrote: At 17:00 02-05-03 +0000, Annemehr wrote: >Annemehr: >Well, like I said, it seems like a dead link, so I'm not surprised. I >was just hoping someone had downloaded it or something before it >disappeared. > > > Personally, I think that this has "RUMOUR" written all over it. > >Annemehr: >That's very likely. However, if the student newspaper was accurate, >it may have actually happened and CNN (or whoever) never archived it. Personally I have yet (despite having asked just about everyone for it for the last six months) to hear from anyone who would claim to have just seen such an interview. I have come to believe that no such quotation exists (though that of course does not preclude the possibility that one or more of the deaths in book 5 can be called fans of Harry - that is still very likely, IMO). Troels Me: I certainly think that Hagrid could be considered a fan of Harry's and we know that unfortunately (to most of us) he's a "goner" in book 5. That's the only rumor or speculation about the upcoming book that I feel confident in as that's an already established fact. Huggs Becky [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anne_goh02 at yahoo.com.sg Fri May 2 16:09:01 2003 From: anne_goh02 at yahoo.com.sg (gintonic3103) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:09:01 -0000 Subject: Lily not related to the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20030428183801.68372.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56804 Quote from Linda's post: Is it just coincidence that Lily, like the entire Weasley family, has red hair? ..... (snipped) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi all, I've been reading the numerous posts regarding how Lily may be related to the Wealseys because of their hair colour. I've only included the above quote because honestly, the later quotes concerning the second or third cousins theory is getting way too complicated for me!:-) To be honest, I don't really believe Lily and the Wealseys to be related, particularly on account of only their hair colour. But, even if we argue on the single basis of hair colour, they are probably not related. First, in PS (UK Edition, p69), Harry mentions that all the four boys (the Weasleys boys) had "flaming" red hair. In CoS, he also mentions seeing Ginny Wealsey in the Great Hall before the sorting, standing out from the crowd because of her flaming or vivid (sorry, I don't have a copy of CoS with me now) red hair. If one were to keep strictly to the description of "flaming", this implies that their hair is a bright reddish orange hue like the colour of flames. Secondly, in PS (UK Edition, p153), when Harry sees Lily in the Mirror of Erised, he comments that his mother had "dark red" hair. This is in my opinion, distinctly different from flaming red hair which is a lighter shade (correct me if I'm wrong; I live in Asia so I don't have much contact with redheads:-)). If anything, it is more likely that Dumbledore is related to Lily based on hair colour, since Dumbledore's hair is described in CoS as being "auburn", which is a darker shade of red like Lily's hair was. Still, I'm rather cautious about assuming relations between characters on account of hair colour. We may be extrapolating too much; we could then speculate if any other brown haired character (don't forget we don't know the hair colour of many of the other charactersin the Harry Potter series ) is related to Harry. "Anne" From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri May 2 17:40:46 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 17:40:46 -0000 Subject: Evil in HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56805 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: While Fudge himself may not be evil, the consequences of his selfish motives may be very ugly. imamommy: I agree. This reminds me of the theories that were going around about Percy!Evil and Rita Skeeter!Evil. I don't think Skeeter is in league with Voldemort. But I do think she is able to be pretty destructive in her own petty way. I don't think Percy is evil, but he has some character flaws that my expose his family and friends to harm in the future. Another example: Barty Crouch, Sr. He was working for the good side, right? But he became pretty unethical. He obviously wasn't a DE, but he wasn't exactly perfect, either. This is why we all love Rowling: she writes characters with real human weakness. Even the heroes have weaknesses. She examines these so well, we learn about our own weaknesses while we read, and being aware helps us want to correct them. Back to Fudge, Percy, and Skeeter: There's a quote toward the end of LOTR, where Gandalf says he fears that Saruman may still cause trouble in a small way (sorry for the paraphrase). This of course he does, in the Shire. So my point is, I don't think these people will necessarily work for Voldie, but they may aid him unknowingly. Or they may simply cause unrelated mischief. imamommy From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri May 2 18:38:54 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:38:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] if you were in charge of Hogwarts References: <1051837043.3186.71572.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c310da$1622cc00$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 56806 Emily wrote >The thing I find most disturbing about the Hogwarts curriculum is that it is >TOO focused on the wizarding world. While some may never leave that world, >I think the majority will at some point, even if by accident. Restricting >the children to discovering ONLY the wizarding world seems rather unfair, >especially to the children who come from wizarding families. And God forbid >they learn to look both ways before crossing the street! :-) > >Of course, we can debate whether studying these subjects is necessary in a >magical school. Along those lines, are they really necessary in a muggle This responds partly to your post, but is also partly about some thoughts that I've had about Hogwarts in general, which may shed another light on not only the curriculum but also the much-discussed Hogwarts numbers issue. My feeling is that there is a hint in Harry's invitation letter where Hogwarts describes itself as the school _of Witchcraft and Wizardry_ (my emphasis). The muggle world runs by technology. The WW runs by witchcraft and wizardry. So is there a hint here that Hogwarts is the equivalent of a muggle school of technology? Is that why the curriculum is so heavily biased towards practical magical subjects? And might it also explain why the student body is made up as it is. If we assume that Hogwarts places go to - children who have grown up in muggle or part muggle households (to make sure that they are equipped to survive in the WW) - children who are of magical backgrounds but perhaps have some doubt over their magical ability (eg Neville and possibly Crabbe and Goyle), to ensure that they have the necessary skills for adult life - children who are there for the prestige value - possibly candidates for jobs with the Ministry, children of old WW families, etc This may be a change from what the Founders intended (though perhaps when the school was founded, it was intended to ensure that in a time when information was not communicated so easily that all WW children had the same level of magical training). But it seems to fit. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 18:40:26 2003 From: jizzkitty420 at yahoo.com (Giselle Sicle) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quote from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502184026.54803.qmail@web13108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56807 jeanico2000 wrote: "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the quote properly. Nicole Nicole, I totally agree with you. To my knowledge Lily was a withch. Perhaps LV is referring to the fact that she was muggle-born? But if he was the statement makes no sense. < Giselle Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JessaDrow at aol.com Fri May 2 18:41:35 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 14:41:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quote from GOF Message-ID: <15f.1fcab2f3.2be415df@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56808 In a message dated 5/2/03 10:44:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jeanico at securenet.net writes: > "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he > hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." > I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to > move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks > to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? > was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a > witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the > quote properly. > Lily is a witch, but her parents were muggles. So in Voldermort's mind and the mind of his DE's she's really a muggle and has no place in the wizard world. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Anne at cnous.net Fri May 2 17:56:16 2003 From: Anne at cnous.net (Anne NGUYEN HOANG) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 19:56:16 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5F007700-7CC7-11D7-AD2F-000393447E36@cnous.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56809 > > How many really "nice" people do you know--how many of them are nice > to *everyone*? Now, how many of those are *genuinely* nice? > Severus Snape is considerably LESS nice than most--and probably ONLY > because he doesn't bother to PRETEND to be nice. But he's certainly > NOT alone in visiting the sins of the father upon the son. One > shudders to think what Sirius Black Jr. would suffer in his classes. > > (well actually, this "one" doesn't, this "one" would probably enjoy > every minute of it) > > Mel > you bring an interesting point here, do you think Snape's hate for Sirius is stronger than his hate for James ? In other word, do you think that the sense is stronger than the sensibility when we're talking about Snape ? James is disliked (understatement) by Snape for illogical reasons... James is a famous quidditch player, he is a leader, his girlfriend is miss perfection, and lot of people like him. James certainly played pranks on him, but it's small potatoes compare to the whomping willow case. Snape on the other's way... was intelligent (cf knowing more curses than seventh grade students) but not enough to be the first student (James was, Sirius was second, and I bet Lily was third) he wasn't a headboy (James was) and on the quidditch field, we don't know if he played, we just know he's skilled enough to be a referee (anyway James was propabily be the best one) Snape looks like the eternal second On the other hand, his feelings toward sirius have solid grounds to grow up (i'm personaly against any form of retribution, like death penalty but I do understand why snape would hate someone who tried to kill him, even unwillingly). Plus during more than ten years Sirius was the nice guy everyone trusted and who betrayed his best friends. Snape's reasons to hate Sirius seems to me "good", but it looks like he hold a stronger dislike toward James. Maybe because James saved his life once and so he can't hate him in peace. but maybe, Snape hates James for a reason we still don't know (and i don't talk about a lily-snape thing, i'm totally allergic to that theory). I know that we must not talk about TMTMNBN? (The Movie That Must Not Be Named) but everyone saw that james' death wasn't onscreen. It does mean that apparently we still don't know clearly how James died (on contrary to lily)and therefore who he was really, we just have second hand information about him Annechan From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 2 18:07:49 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 20:07:49 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Would Dumbledore lie? (Was: The Catalyst to Riddles Motivation) References: Message-ID: <009101c310d5$c2503260$0916253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56810 Richelle wrote: >I could actually believe that Dumbledore would lie if he thought it >best that Harry didn't know something about his past. IF (and it's >a very big if) there is some connection between Riddle and Harry (as >in relations) I think Dumbledore would have gone above and beyond >the call of duty to keep it from Harry. Harry was beginning to >doubt his place in Gryffindor due to what the sorting hat said, and >who knows what he'd have thought after Riddle's "we even look >alike" speech if Dumbledore hadn't put a stop to those thoughts. Me: I don't think so, DD says he would never lie to Harry: "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution. However, I shall answer your questions unless I have a very good reason not to, in which case I beg you'll forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie." PS/SS Chapter 17. And Dumbledore always explains why he does or doesn't do things. He'd refuse to explain something, but never tell a lie, and much less to protect someone. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 2 18:10:44 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You are in charge of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502181044.46919.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56811 --- catherinemckiernan wrote: > I would appoint a competant DADA Professor! > Much as one hesitates to > agree with Lucius Malfoy, Dumbledore's record > as a headmaster is > questionable in this area at least. The record > of which we are aware > runs: host to the Dark Lord (poss. not an > incentive to be particularly > effective), dangerous fraud, werewolf (symptoms > not 100% controlled), > paranoid maniac who turns out to be Voldemort's > henchman. The > Governors really should have looked into this! Lynn: Yea, it really doesn't look all that good for Dumbledore in that light. However, as with everything, there are other ways to look at it. Quirrel appears to have been a competent teacher until his little trip in which he meets Voldemort. I don't get the impression teachers are let go very easily otherwise Binns would have been retired by now. Lockhart is hard to understand. There are several reasons that come to mind though. One, to show students what the pursuit of fame (power, whatever) can do to a person, how easy it is to be fooled by someone just because they are famous, how easy it is to fool ourselves about our abilities when we think too much of ourselves and how not everyone is what they appear to be. While this may seem to be directed at Harry, I think it is more to get the students ready in case Voldemort returns. Lupin was there, I think, mainly because of Sirius. Lupin would know him the best of everyone and Dumbledore was right. Lupin would have recognized Sirius when he was a dog. As for the 100% not in control, true for that instance but if the events hadn't happened on that particular day, there would have been total control for the year. As a teacher, Lupin was creative, knew the subject and appears to have been good at teaching. As for Moody, having him there made perfect sense. Dumbledore believed something was going on with Voldemort, that he was getting stronger. Karkaroff was going to be at Hogwarts. It seems to me that Dumbledore made a good decision in bringing in Moody, someone who was familiar with Karkaroff and would be extra protection during the Triwizard Tournament. As was said in the first class, Moody was only supposed to be there for that year so he was there for a very specific purpose. Again, if we take the ending away, Crouch!Moody appears to have taught the subject quite well. As for the governors, it would all depend on which light they choose to view the DADA appointments. ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Fri May 2 18:55:30 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 May 2003 18:55:30 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1051901730.83.62574.w26@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56812 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Currently, each new member is assigned a list elf to welcome them to the list and answer their questions. List administration is considering changing this approach. Instead of assigning each new member a list elf, we could instead send new members a list of elves with e-mail addresses and allow members to get in touch with any elf with whom they have a relationship or whom they think could answer their question most easily. What do you think of this proposed change? o Yes, I like this proposed change. o No, I don't like this proposed change. o Undecided or don't know. To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1088197 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri May 2 18:55:02 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:55:02 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: New Poll Regarding Elfing System Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56813 Greetings from Hexquarters! The List Administrators are considering making some changes to our "elfing" system, that is, how we assign list elves to new members, and we'd like to hear your opinions. Currently, each new member receives a welcome message from one of our list elves. The welcome message usually contains a link to our administrative guidelines and a brief description of how the group works. The new member may contact their list elf whenever they have a question or need guidance. This approach ensures that each new member receives a personal list elf and that no members are overlooked. We are considering doing things a bit differently. We are trying to decide whether new members might prefer to receive a brief welcome message with the names and e-mails of all of the elves. New members who would like to correspond with an elf could pick the elf they think could be most helpful to them and send their question directly to that elf. Members would therefore be able to correspond with the elf who is most knowlegeable about the member's question or any elf with whom they have become familiar. And that's where you all come in. We'd like to know what our members think about changing the elfing system, so we are creating a poll. The poll is for advisory purposes only; there are other administrative issues that will influence our decision, of course. You can only vote once in the poll, although you can change your vote at any time before the poll closes. The poll will not display names or results for now. Finally, we would like to hear *any* thoughts, ideas, comments or suggestions you may have about any issues or policies related to the elfing system. For example, tell us things like whether you received an elf when you joined, whether you contacted your elf with questions, whether the elfing system was helpful for you and so forth. Please send your remarks to: Mods_Elves_Geists at yahoogroups.com We will most definitely read and consider your messages, although we won't be able to guarantee you a reply or acknowledgement. So please. Tell us what you think! Cindy, for List Administration From orionis13 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 19:12:55 2003 From: orionis13 at yahoo.com (orionis13) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 19:12:55 -0000 Subject: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56814 Hello all! I think I found where this quote started spreading. It was in a MISC. section of Rumors and Facts about the upcoming books in UHPFC (The Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club), no longer available. Facts were written like so, and rumors italicized. So it *was* a rumor after all. ? Spiderweb writes: JK Rowling said that the next books will be "Darker". She said another person to die will be a "special fan" of Harry's. So I came up with none other then Colin Creevy, Harry's "close friend" !!! [Many fans also suggest Ginny Weasley and Dobby!] The phrase in [ ] was in red and not in italics and seemed to be a note or comment from the webmistress. So now the next thing is to email Jenna and ask her if she remembers who was this Spiderweb and how/where s/he got that information from JKR. I really hope that helps. Nell, who is very happy to be part of such a great group! PS: If you're wondering how I got the information, I had saved it in a doc. last year and had forgotten I had it. I just found the doc. in my hard drive, checked it and there it was the infamous quote! From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 2 18:37:47 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502183747.68682.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56815 --- Mel wrote: > > > Mel: > Unfortunately, yes. It's an Adult Human > Attitude. Not a very nice > one, but have you ever heard a child say: > "What do you expect, after all, 'the apple > never falls far from the > tree'." > > How many really "nice" people do you know--how > many of them are nice > to *everyone*? Now, how many of those are > *genuinely* nice? > Severus Snape is considerably LESS nice than > most--and probably ONLY > because he doesn't bother to PRETEND to be > nice. But he's certainly > NOT alone in visiting the sins of the father > upon the son. One > shudders to think what Sirius Black Jr. would > suffer in his classes. Lynn: You're right. There are many adults that unfortunately take that attitude and then teach it to their children. Yes it would be called a Human Attitude. To call it an Adult Attitude though, as in an adult way to act, I respectfully disagree. An adult would have the maturity to at least attempt to judge each person separately and would definitely take the time to see if there was indeed a difference between the parent and child before making a decision about the child. Also, an adult way to act would be to attempt to allow that one's own prejudices of the parent may be coloring their perception of the child. Not always easy to do but then it takes self-awareness and maturity to do. Harry, at the beginning, how no idea why Snape hates him. His attitude towards Snape is based not on perception, as Snape's is of Harry, but on the actual treatment Harry receives from Snape. Harry appears to be able to tolerate Snape's attitude toward him much easier once he knows why Snape hates him and knows it's based on Snape's relationship to his father rather than on who Harry is himself. Seems to me that the one in this relationship who is exhibiting adult behavior is Harry, not Snape. ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From mysmacek at yahoo.com Fri May 2 19:28:00 2003 From: mysmacek at yahoo.com (mysmacek) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 19:28:00 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratings (Was: Why I hate Hag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" > wrote: > > > There is absolutely zero canon to support the notion that Snape is > > unfair with House Points. > > 'Please, sir,' said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, 'the > werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout > of the werewolf -' > > 'That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger,' > said Snape cooly. 'Five more points from Gryffindor for being an > insufferable know-it-all.' Well, I got so many notice-to-parents in my student's book for speaking out of turn in physics class, that I even got an official reprimand to my study records. But I still loved physics and had great admiration for the teacher :-) Mysmacek From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 2 18:12:24 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 20:12:24 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil in HP References: Message-ID: <009901c310d6$62d3a870$0916253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56817 imamommy: I agree. This reminds me of the theories that were going around about Percy!Evil and Rita Skeeter!Evil. I don't think Skeeter is in league with Voldemort. But I do think she is able to be pretty destructive in her own petty way. I don't think Percy is evil, but he has some character flaws that my expose his family and friends to harm in the future. Another example: Barty Crouch, Sr. He was working for the good side, right? But he became pretty unethical. He obviously wasn't a DE, but he wasn't exactly perfect, either. This is why we all love Rowling: she writes characters with real human weakness. Even the heroes have weaknesses. She examines these so well, we learn about our own weaknesses while we read, and being aware helps us want to correct them. Back to Fudge, Percy, and Skeeter: There's a quote toward the end of LOTR, where Gandalf says he fears that Saruman may still cause trouble in a small way (sorry for the paraphrase). This of course he does, in the Shire. So my point is, I don't think these people will necessarily work for Voldie, but they may aid him unknowingly. Or they may simply cause unrelated mischief. Me: I agree. We have an old saying in Spain that goes: "donde hay un tonto hay un peligro" that means more or less "where there is a stupid person, there's danger". I think Voldemort is smart enough to take advantage of that kind of people. We know Bagman helped him without knowing, Crouch is in denial, he's very dangerous and he's not a very smart person, so he can very easyly be manipulated, so is Percy, sorry but it's true, so are many other people we don't know yet. CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zugzwang_0 at hotmail.com Fri May 2 18:26:03 2003 From: Zugzwang_0 at hotmail.com (ecceq) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:26:03 -0000 Subject: JKR and the House system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alice_loves_cats" wrote: >"The very idea of sorting kids into houses according to their certain >characteristics is, I think, almost as horrible as JKR's school >seating." Hello Alice! I think that schools in themselves are horrible. It is a perversion of the naturally occurring sociological structures of life to lump together so many people of the same age... so many immature, not fully developed people of the same age. Schools are unnatural contrivances imposed upon over-large societies as the most practical solution educating the young in such a way as make sure an over-large society remains cohesive. Boarding schools are especially unnatural as the children are removed from their families for extended periods of time. Physiologically people are designed to function best in small, well ordered societies of mixed age. But of course there are advantages to forming larger societies and since human beings are eminently adaptable we develop mechanisms to counteract the problems that living in an unnatural state brings. When it comes to schools a nice simple way to do this is to break it up into smaller sub-societies, or houses. But why aren't the houses more mixed you might ask, well because it's easier to keep order in homogenised societies and because people naturally seek out those who are similar to themselves anyway. And for a child away from home for extended periods of time it helps to have an easily identifiable `family' around them. I went to two different schools, one had a house system and the other did not. I much preferred the one with the house system. Like Hogwarts there where four houses (though in the way back when there had been five) and like Hogwarts the houses where seen as having a different emphasis on various values. The advantage of the house system was quite simply that even if you didn't have many friends you still had loyalties and more importantly people who where loyal to you. And if you did have friends so much the better... a natural support network extented by house loyalties. In a houseless school you don't have this line of defence, if you're singled out and you have no friends, you're on your own matey. And if you did have friends but the group that singled out was bigger than yours, tough. True, a person can be rejected from their own house if they aren't seen to fit in, but that happens in families too and amongst all types groups which brings me to your next point: >Alice: "It also gives them much less opportunity to develop their >personalities. If you only see people similar to yourself around you, >you will eventually become very limited in your opinions, don't you >think?" People do not, as a rule, seek to socialise with people too different from themselves and forcing them to do so en mass is a recipe for disaster. Look at how Harry is treated, even by his own house members, when he is believed to be too different. Schools need to be well organised and safe as possible and no matter how good the teachers are, they are not omnipotent (well, with the possible exception of Dumbledore that is lol). A house structure is a nice easy convienient way of providing a support network and keeping children in line. Besides, members of a house are not clones of each other, there is enough difference of personality, ability and background for members of a house to learn from each other, grow and develop. If large numbers of children were pushed into being with people too different from themselves then the chances are it would be counter productive to their growth, as it is as likely to promote misunderstanding and suspicion as it is anything positive. Children need to feel secure in order to learn and develop well rounded characters; they feel the most secure around people they can readily identify with. Oh yes, and JKR using the house system is a convient means of deveoping the rivalry and tention of the characters. It's good for the plot. Well, that's what I think anyway... hmmm that is, that's what I think today at 20 past seven... Ecce-Q: thinking of home educating her children... [Mod Note: Just a quick reminder to make sure replies on this thread stay reasonably on-topic. Alternatively, the discussion of schooling could be moved over to our sister list, OT-Chatter, if anyone would like to delve deeper into various forms of schooling.] From rane_ab at hotmail.com Fri May 2 18:51:15 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:51:15 -0000 Subject: Evil in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "imamommy at s..." wrote: > > Back to Fudge, Percy, and Skeeter: There's a quote toward the end of > LOTR, where Gandalf says he fears that Saruman may still cause > trouble in a small way (sorry for the paraphrase). This of course he > does, in the Shire. So my point is, I don't think these people will > necessarily work for Voldie, but they may aid him unknowingly. Or > they may simply cause unrelated mischief. > I'm actually half expecting Percy to do something quite brilliant. Since the start of the HP series, I've always looked upon Percy with some doubt - as if he were the weak link in the Weasly family. I was, therefore, pleasantly surprised, when, in GoF, during the second task, Percy showed genuine concern toward Ron. (actually *walking into the water*, and that for priss, uptight little Percy) It is the first time, I think, J.K.R. really showed Percy's human side. I think, because of that, that Percy really *is* goodhearted; and though he may play a minor "bad" part, I think in the end he might just proove himself worthy of being a Weasly (well, that came out wrong, but I'm sure you all understand what I mean). With many cheerful greetings, Rane, who just got soaked to the bone while being caught in a rain- /hailstorm, and who literally found herself wringing her undies and pouring the water out of her shoes. From the_fox01 at hotmail.com Fri May 2 20:02:20 2003 From: the_fox01 at hotmail.com (The Fox) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:02:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair (with House Points)? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56820 "mongo62aa" wrote: >"Tom Wall" wrote: >>There is absolutely zero canon to support the notion that Snape is unfair >>with House Points. > >'Please, sir,' said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, 'the >werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout of the >werewolf -' > >'That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger,' said >Snape cooly. 'Five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable >know-it-all.' He's well within his rights to take points from Gryffindor at this juncture; as others have noted, losing House points may be the only way Hermione learns to sit down and shut up (that is, learns that her Extreme Cleverness may not always be helpful to her House). Calling her an insufferable know-it-all is probably over the line. No call for ad hominem attacks, now, Severus, let's keep it professional (the fact that the girl *is* an insufferable know-it-all notwithstanding). Ditto the well-trodden "no difference" teeth example. The reason Dumbledore doesn't ever call him on it, though, if you ask me, is that -- in my experience, at least -- British schools in general are much less invested in the self-esteem-type stuff American schools are devoted to these days. I've had both; the "mean" teachers in my American school (and in the school where my parents taught, a public school with more students and therefore a different sort of accountability to their parents) would indeed have been called on the carpet for singling out a particular student for negative attention, even if that negative attention did have something to do with the student's schoolwork. Heaven forbid a teacher be the cause of a student's losing face in front of his or her peers. The horror! In my British school, on the other hand (a grammar school, in Lincolnshire, 1988 -- the 11-plus was still administered there then, although I don't know if it is any longer), the teachers had license to be apparently as cruel as they wanted, or as they felt they needed to be to get results. A kid persistently talking out of turn (even to give correct answers) in one of those classes would almost certainly have been shamed into knocking it off, and if that kid's parents had made a stink about it with the school administrators, they'd probably have been laughed out of the office. The "nice" teachers in that school were the ones who smiled instead of sneering while they were mocking you in front of your friends. There are arguments to be made on both sides, of course. Snape is nastier than he needs to be, I agree, but part of being a successful student is figuring out what the teacher wants, and doing it -- and Hermione, for all she's book-smart and has a mind like a sponge, hasn't figured that out yet. Fox ........................ "... I think I'd like it if he *could* be wicked and *wouldn't." -- Anne of the Island ... Come on, Nature Just because I don't feel weak Don't mean I feel so strong. -- the Proclaimers .............................. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From mbush at lainc.com Fri May 2 20:02:38 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 20:02:38 -0000 Subject: Crouch as Moody (was: Crouch teaching Unforgivables) In-Reply-To: <3EB28C0C.F5053602@ismennt.is> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56821 > Mar?a Helga wrote: > As far as the Unforgivables teaching is concerned, I've always been of the opinion that Moody!Crouch Jr. was simply giving the most accurate "Mad-Eye" performance he could. Dumbledore knows Moody incredibly well, and therefore Crouch had to teach this specific subject (and all others, of course) in a Moody enough manner so as not to arouse suspicion. Dumbledore picked up on Moody!Crouch Jr.'s secret identity right away when he (Crouch) didn't bring Harry to him (Dumbledore) immediately after the Tournament. Why wouldn't DD have picked up on it if M!C Jr. had balked at teaching them how to resist Imperius? For M!C Jr, seeing Harry and Neville in pain was probably just an added benefit to playing his role extra well...twisted, sick creep that he is... This Moody/Crouch thing is something that has bothered me for a while. Harry and Ron seem to keep their own thoughts and actions when they drink the polyjuice potion in CoS and have to "act" as Crabbe and Goyle while they look like them. How much Moody are we actually seeing in GoF? and why does it take a whole school year for DD to catch on? (althougth Moody is pretty eccentric) It seems to me that Crouch would have slipped up more before then. But is any of what we see "real" Moody or just an interpretation of him by Crouch? (I know we are seeing Crouch as Moody, but how good of a performer is he?), and if Crouch is keeping him alive to learn his mannerisms and to continue with the potion, why doesn't Moody "fight" it more? Why didn't he "teach" Crouch false mannerisms to give himself away? (or was he acting under the imperious curse and was just to weak to be fighting it?--is this actually stated somewhere? Don't have the books with me to look it up) Do you take on more and more qualities of the person the longer you use polyjuice potion to become them? I know we are supposed to be seeing "the real Moody" in book 5, but that is still several weeks away...I'm really curious if we'll see any major differences. Any thoughts? mtwelovett From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 20:35:18 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 13:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil in HP In-Reply-To: <009901c310d6$62d3a870$0916253e@takun> Message-ID: <20030502203518.53390.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56822 hagrid wrote: imamommy: I agree. This reminds me of the theories that were going around about Percy!Evil and Rita Skeeter!Evil. I don't think Skeeter is in league with Voldemort. But I do think she is able to be pretty destructive in her own petty way. I don't think Percy is evil, but he has some character flaws that my expose his family and friends to harm in the future. Another example: Barty Crouch, Sr. He was working for the good side, right? But he became pretty unethical. He obviously wasn't a DE, but he wasn't exactly perfect, either. This is why we all love Rowling: she writes characters with real human weakness. Even the heroes have weaknesses. She examines these so well, we learn about our own weaknesses while we read, and being aware helps us want to correct them. Back to Fudge, Percy, and Skeeter: There's a quote toward the end of LOTR, where Gandalf says he fears that Saruman may still cause trouble in a small way (sorry for the paraphrase). This of course he does, in the Shire. So my point is, I don't think these people will necessarily work for Voldie, but they may aid him unknowingly. Or they may simply cause unrelated mischief. Isaskun: I agree. We have an old saying in Spain that goes: "donde hay un tonto hay un peligro" that means more or less "where there is a stupid person, there's danger". I think Voldemort is smart enough to take advantage of that kind of people. We know Bagman helped him without knowing, Crouch is in denial, he's very dangerous and he's not a very smart person, so he can very easyly be manipulated, so is Percy, sorry but it's true, so are many other people we don't know yet. CHeers, Izaskun ME: If we want to use other fantasy story lines as examples, also remember that in LOTR, it was mentioned by Gandolf that even Sauron was not evil to begin with. Another good example is of course Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars storyline. But as you say, Izaskun, some people have buttons you can push and a great manipulator such as Voldemort is real good at pushing the right buttons. Not only to use others but even to "turn" them to evil. Either way benefits Voldemort of course but the latter is preferable to just manipulating good but stupid people. Here is my take on some of the potential characters. RON-I cannot believe he'll become either evil nor dead. But he is a potential weakness to get to Harry because Ron has a lot of those hot "buttons" that Voldemort can try pushing. If he does, Ron will have some trying times ahead and it'll only be his basic goodness that would save him. The idea that he is tempted down that road at some point strikes me as very reasonable as we've seen his vulnerabilities stated very well in the first four books. PERCY-Evil? Probably not but here is someone who can easily be manipulated by somebody like Voldemort. He possibly craves position and power and control and that is something Voldemort can give him. He's certainly not evil now. But the future? Who knows? If not, he can still possibly be a useful pawn. Rita? No way. She's too petty to be either good nor evil nor much of anything else except a lying gossip. Fudge? I don't know about him. Obviously he could be a great hinderance to Dumbledore and thus an accidental ally to Voldemort. But I don't think he is intentionally so right now and probably will never be. However his own prejudices and short-sightedness makes him very useful to Voldemort indeed. And maybe he really is on Voldemort's side even now. Again I don't think so, but it has to be considered a possibility. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Fri May 2 20:16:52 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 20:16:52 -0000 Subject: Fudge's Character: Evil!Fudge (WAS: Could Fudge fire Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56823 "rane_ab" wrote: >I'm not really sure what you mean when you say Fudge has some evil >mojo. (what *is* a mojo, exactly, BTW?) Do you think Fudge is on >Voldemort's side, or that he's just working for himself? I hope that my discussion of what mojo is doesn't belong on OT- Chatter, but I wanted to give you just a quick definition: Mojo is a slang word of African-American origin, roughly equal to the Native American "medicine". It can mean charisma, charm (in several senses of the word), sexual chemistry, luck, magic, just to start with. You can find more info here: http://pages.prodigy.net/sfumato/pages/whatismojo.html What I mean by Fudge having evil mojo is that he has some evilness in his person which is causing him to do things that don't feel right or good. Whether or not this is intentional remains to be seen. "rane_ab" later wrote: >If Fudge's behaviour *isn't* due to the fact that he likes his >office too much, then what could possibly be his motive? I'm not sure. This is just a gut feeling. Maybe it's just Evil!Fudge. I'm waiting for him to get really nasty in OoP. I'm sure that his bureaucratic self-preservation ideals are helping to drive this behavior along, but like I said before, I just can't see all his actions being chalked up to it. I also can't see it all stemming from his lack of smarts or being utterly obtuse to the situation. I think Fudge is smarter than a lot of people give him credit for, and we'll see this in the next book. I could be wrong though. I definitely don't think Fudge is in league with Voldemort, but his inaction (to me) is almost as bad as perpetrating all the heinous activities that VM is about to do. bowlwoman From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 2 20:33:57 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 20:33:57 -0000 Subject: Evil in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rane_ab" wrote: > > I'm actually half expecting Percy to do something quite brilliant. > Since the start of the HP series, I've always looked upon Percy with > some doubt - as if he were the weak link in the Weasly family. > I was, therefore, pleasantly surprised, when, in GoF, during the > second task, Percy showed genuine concern toward Ron. (actually > *walking into the water*, and that for priss, uptight little Percy) > It is the first time, I think, J.K.R. really showed Percy's human > side. Yes, but let's not forget Percy's rude reply to Ron's owl asking about Mr. Crouch. While I don't have the text with me, the gist was "don't bother me unless it's important". Frankly, I worry about that boy and what harm he will either come to or bring upon someone (I'm not sure which). I suggest that Percy's admiration for Crouch's position blinded him to the faults of Crouch the man, even apart from his secrets. Would you respect someone who persisted in calling you by the wrong name? As far as Fudge goes, he smells like bad news, and I won't be surprised at to see his sympathies towards the Malfoys' point of view about purebloods turn into something nastier. Both of the other major politicos in the story (Crouch the elder and Bagman) are characters with things to hide, and so we might expect any other politician types -- particularly Fudge -- to turn out to be quite bad behind the scenes. I offer you my recently-found anagram of Cornelius Fudge -- Lucifer Segundo. All praise to JKR for coming up with characters' names that are both so evocative and so anagrammable. Ersatz Harry, who has nothing to hide but his identity From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri May 2 21:03:25 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 21:03:25 -0000 Subject: Quote from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56825 > jeanico2000 wrote: > > > "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear > mother..." > > Why does he compare Lily to his father? was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a witch. Any thoughts on this? Katie.javis1 wrote: > I think that he is referring to the "fool" part of the sentence. > He then goes on to say that in death, they both had their uses, > which I think is a disgusting thing to say, but that's Voldemort for you. Now me: Lily was not a muggle, but she was a mudblood. To Voldemort, there is not much difference between the two. He thinks they should both be wiped out. erin From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri May 2 21:17:13 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 21:17:13 -0000 Subject: Terms for Blood (WAS: Re: Quote from GOF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56826 Nicole quoted GoF: "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." And then wrote: I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the quote properly. I comment: I can't find the interview in which I originally read this, but I'm almost positive that, at one point, JKR called Harry a 'half-blood.' That totally confused me, because since he's the stock of a witch and wizard, I figured that made him 'pure-blood.' So, James (as far as we know) was 'pure-blood,' but Lily was a 'mudblood.' And, since Harry's the result of a union between a 'pure-blood' and a 'mudblood,' that makes him a 'half-blood.' And, since Voldemort is the result of the union between a Muggle and a 'pure-blood' (at least, I'm assuming that's what his mother was,) I guess that makes Voldemort a 'half-blood' too. At least, I think that's how it works. I dunno. The quote got me when I read it, too. ;-) -Tom From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri May 2 21:42:51 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 21:42:51 -0000 Subject: Terms for Blood (WAS: Re: Quote from GOF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56827 "Tom Wall" : wrote can't find the interview in which I originally read this, but I'm almost positive that, at one point, JKR called Harry a 'half- blood.' That totally confused me, because since he's the stock of a witch and wizard, I figured that made him 'pure-blood.' So, James (as far as we know) was 'pure-blood,' but Lily was a 'mudblood.' And, since Harry's the result of a union between a 'pure-blood' and a 'mudblood,' that makes him a 'half-blood.' And, since Voldemort is the result of the union between a Muggle and a 'pure-blood' (at least, I'm assuming that's what his mother was,) I guess that makes Voldemort a 'half-blood' too. Ali replies:- LOON to your rescue. Tom Riddle calls Harry an "half-blood" when discussing their similarities in the Chamber of Secrets: P233 UK edition "there are strange likenesses between us, Harry Potter. Even you must have noticed, both half-bloods, orphans raised by muggles...", So, Voldemort certainly seems to think that they are both half- bloods. Ali, who doesn't like the term "mudblood" being used as a descriptive term preferring the more cumbersome "Muggleborn" or "Muggle" instead - but that is a personal preference. From t.forch at mail.dk Fri May 2 22:01:56 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:01:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: <20030502173026.24426.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030502191213.00d74a20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030502235913.00da1ea0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 56828 At 10:30 02-05-03 -0700, Becky Walkden wrote: >Me: I certainly think that Hagrid could be considered a fan of >Harry's and we know that unfortunately (to most of us) he's a >"goner" in book 5. That's the only rumor or speculation about >the upcoming book that I feel confident in as that's an already >established fact. I am quite dubious to that 'fact' as Rowling has said that Hagrid will be in all the books. http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/interviews/19991012_TheConnection.html#question32 Troels From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 2 22:10:07 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:10:07 -0000 Subject: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030502235913.00da1ea0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > I am quite dubious to that 'fact' as Rowling has said that Hagrid will be > in all the books. I don't think I would necessarily read the quote exactly that way. If you go to the transcript, you will see that there was a bit of interruption going on between caller and JKR, and JKR may well have been saying "Yes" as short for "Yes, I understand" or "Yes, please continue" or some other similar expression. It is true that the caller asked if Hagrid was going to be in all the books, and it is true that JKR uttered the word "Yes", but it is not quite so clear that the "Yes" is in response to the question. Ersatz Harry From andie at knownet.net Fri May 2 22:35:46 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:35:46 -0000 Subject: My three questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56830 ersatzharry at y...> wrote: > > Assuming that Voldemort became a permanent part of Quirrell at > some point, at least until the end of SS, why did Harry's scar not > hurt *every* time that Quirrell/Voldemort was nearby? > Me: Dumbledore has stated several times that he believes Harry's scar hurts when Voldemort is feeling a particular surge of hatred or anger. Therefore, Harry's scar would not hurt every time Quirrell was around, just when Voldemort was feeling particularly powerful. ersatzharry at y...> wrote: Can we possibly believe > that Fred and George Weasley made their absurd bet with Bagman without > some prior knowledge about the outcome? Me: I am pretty sure at this point that Fred and George ( or rather Gred and Forge ), certainly used some kind of time travel device to get this piece of extrordinary information. Whether is is a time turner, like Hermione used to have, or something else entirely, I don't know. I am however, convinced that some type of time travel did happen there. grindieloe Waiting NOT so patiently the 50 more days until OoP! :) From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri May 2 22:35:47 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 18:35:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Would Dumbledore lie? (Was: The Catalyst to Riddles Motiv... Message-ID: <64.2f9bdf22.2be44cc3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56831 rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es writes: > Me: > > I don't think so, DD says he would never lie to Harry: > "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and > should therefore be treated with great caution. However, I shall answer > your questions unless I have a very good reason not to, in which case I beg > you'll forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie." PS/SS Chapter 17. > > And Dumbledore always explains why he does or doesn't do things. He'd > refuse to explain something, but never tell a lie, and much less to protect > someone. I have always been of the opinion that when Dumbledore is speaking privately to Harry, explaining one of the great mysteries of life, it is really JKR speaking to the reader. Therefore one may assume that Dumbledore will never lie to Harry when there is no one else present. If there is a third person in the room, even Ron or Hermione, then there is always the possibility that Dumbledore *might* "bend the truth". To a true teacher, outright "black is white" lies are anathema. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 22:56:39 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:56:39 -0000 Subject: My three questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56832 ersatzharry wrote: > > > Can we possibly believe that Fred and George Weasley made their absurd bet with Bagman without some prior knowledge about the outcome? > > > grindieloe: > > > I am pretty sure at this point that Fred and George ( or rather Gred and Forge ), certainly used some kind of time travel device to get this piece of extrordinary information. Whether is is a time turner, like Hermione used to have, or something else entirely, I don't know. I am however, convinced that some type of time travel did happen there. > > > Now me (Laura): Really? Am I the only person who never thought of this? In the chapters preceeding the match, it is clearly stated several times that Krum is nothing short of a hero, while the rest of his team is glossed over. Similarly, a lot of emphasis was put on Ireland's chasers being extraordinary players. I never really thought their bet was so far-fetched. Not sure I'd bet my life savings on it, but then, I'm not Gred and Forge. I think a lot of the purpose of that plot device was to draw attention to Ludo's money troubles. Not sure if there was much more to it than that. You're entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I hoenstly never even considered it- always just thought Fred and George were great Quidditch fans. I never even really considered the bet too far- fetched to begin with. -Laura From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 2 22:56:53 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 15:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crouch as Moody (was: Crouch teaching Unforgivables) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502225653.97787.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56833 --- mtwelovett wrote: > How much Moody > are we actually seeing > in GoF? > why doesn't Moody "fight" it > more? Why didn't he > "teach" Crouch false mannerisms to give himself > away? (or was he > acting under the imperious curse and was just > to weak to be fighting > it?--is this actually stated somewhere? Lynn: I think we're seeing a lot of Moody in GoF. As you pointed out, wouldn't Dumbledore have figured it out sooner if Crouch, Jr. hadn't been playing Moody so well? I get the impression that Moody was well known as were his eccentricities and exploits. This may explain why Crouch, Jr. could portray him more easily than someone less well known. Also, we don't know just how much interaction there was between Dumbledore and Crouch, Jr.!Moody. There may have been allowances made for some erratic behavior just because of Moody's eccentricities. It was when the behavior was totally out of character that Dumbledore knew it wasn't the real Moody. As for why Moody didn't fight it, he was probably too weak. When Moody was found in the trunk, Dumbledore said that Moody was stunned and being controlled by the Imperious Curse. (GoF, p. 591 UK) Add to that the deprivation he would have been experiencing being locked in the drunk and it would make someone very weak. Also, we don't know what was done to Moody previously. I could imagine that he had been subjected to the Cruciatus Curse quite a few times to bring him to a very weakened state. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From t.forch at mail.dk Fri May 2 23:11:37 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 01:11:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030502235913.00da1ea0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503010825.00dad7d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 56834 At 22:10 02-05-03 +0000, you wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > wrote: > > > > I am quite dubious to that 'fact' as Rowling has said that Hagrid >will be > > in all the books. > >I don't think I would necessarily read the quote exactly that way. Listen to the interview - it's quite clear what she is answering to. She actually replies twice - the second time with "he is going to be around, you're going to keep seeing him." (I made that transcript) I don't know what else there that could convince anyone that Hagrid is to die - the movies and the actors really don't count in that respect. Troels From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 2 23:38:23 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My three questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030502233823.69404.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56835 --- Laura wrote: > Really? Am I the only person who never thought > of this? > > I never really > thought their bet was so far-fetched. > Lynn: I never thought about it either until someone else suggested it. So you're not the only one. It is an intriguing theory but there are a few things that bother me with that theory. First, can people go forward in time? We know they can go back. But when they go back, they go to the specific place they were at that time, e.g. Hermione and Harry go the Entrance Hall where they had been 3 hours previously. So, first, if Fred and George could go forward, where would they go if they hadn't been there yet? Would they end up sitting on their future selves' laps? How would they know how far into the future to go when no one knows how long the match is going to be? If they didn't go forward to the match, but instead went forward and checked the Daily Prophet, wouldn't they have known by that time that the gold Ludo gives them is fake? Of course, there's always the possibility that the future Fred and George time traveled back to the present Fred and George and told them who to bet on and they might not have waited long enough to know that their winnings would disappear. Lynn (who's giving up on anything to do with time travel as it just hurts my head too much) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri May 2 23:56:33 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 09:56:33 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR and the House system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EB39251.5949.462D593@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 56836 On 2 May 2003 at 12:05, alice_loves_cats wrote: > Hi, > > something struck me few days ago, partly inspired by the "Is there > anything that bothers you in the Potterverse" topic: JKR has stated in > at least one interview that I've heard (I believe there's a link to it > in the Lexicon), that she once had a terrible teacher who seated kids > in class according to how smart she thought they were. First, she was > put at the back with the stupid kids, and later had to change places > with her best friend, who had until then sat in the front row with the > supposedly bright kids. JKR said she thought this to be a terrible > system (I agree.) > > On the other hand, doesn't the House system of Hogwarts actually do > something pretty similar? > > Sure, the characteristics of every house are given in positive terms: > Hufflepuffs are not stupid, but nice, Slytherins are not nasty and > evil, but cunning. Still, if somebody gets sorted into Hufflepuff, the > word goes ruond that he's not exactly the brightest of souls. And > everybody considers Slytherins to be evil. > > The very idea of sorting kids into houses according to their certain > characteristics is, I think, almost as horrible as JKR's school seating. Well, as someone who went to a school that did that, I respectfully disagree. My school had eight houses, with 30 students per year level in each house (there were four years so 120 students per house total, and a grand total of around 960 students in the school). You were placed in a particular house quite deliberately, based on a number of factors - personality (as indicated by testing and by observation - this school had the advantage that of the 240 boys coming into the lowest year, 220 or so had attended 1 of 2 schools, which made it easy to observe them in the year prior to entry, and also to talk to their previous teachers) being one of the most important. And it worked wonders. Especially for kids like me, who found it rather hard to fit in with other people, who found it very hard to make friends, and who would - and up until then had - spent most of his time trying to be alone, because experience had taught me that other children only wanted to hurt me. What our house system did was immediately restricted the number of people you *had* to have intimate contact with, down from 240 to 30 or so. It was a lot easier to get to know other people, and also a lot easier to work out if someone was being left out of things. We got the similar speech, about how house was something like family. We were told that we were expected to hang together. I still didn't make friends easily - it took me over a year before I got that far, but the house system made it *much* easier for me to acquire 'acquaintances', and that was the first step for me. At my school, for the first year, we did do all our classes in our house groups (except our very limited elective subjects), the following year, we were shuffled so half of one house had classes with half of another, and for the final two years houses weren't really used for class allocation at all (mostly because by then, virtually every subject was an elective). The thing is, I think the Hogwarts house system is similar to that. How many 'friendless' people do we encounter at Hogwarts? How many kids do we see moving around with no friends at all? Compare that to most schools - I suspect that in most schools, you'll see a lot more isolated kids than we see at Hogwarts. We have seen it, though, and the cases where we have is interesting Take Hermione in her first year. "Ron was in a very bad mood by the end of the class. "It's no wonder no one can stand her," he said to Harry as they pushed their way into the crowded corridor, "she's a nightmare, honestly. " Someone knocked into Harry as they hurried past him. It was Hermione. Harry caught a glimpse of her face - and was startled to see that she was in tears. "I think she heard you." "So?" said Ron, but he looked a bit uncomfortable. "She must've noticed she's got no friends."" I find this one interesting because of one of the questions I have seen come up so often in internet discussion groups on Harry Potter - why isn't Hermione in Ravenclaw? Many people seem to feel, based on their understanding of the novels, that she'd fit there well. And I can understand that myself. I think Hermione would have done well as a Ravenclaw. She also does well as a Gryffindor. What she seems to be is someone who has the characteristics of two houses. And when she acts like a 'Ravenclaw' in Gryffindor, it leads to friction. But look at what else we see in the paragraph after that scene: "Hermione didn't turn up for the next class and wasn't seen all afternoon. On their way down to the Great Hall for the Hallowe'en feast, Harry and Ron overheard Parvati Patil telling her friend Lavender that Hermione was crying in the girls' toilets and wanted to be left alone." Assuming Ron is correct and Hermione has no friends, it's very interesting to see Parvati and Lavender - both Gryffindor girls - are apparently concerned enough about what is happening with Hermione to be talking about her, and the statement that she wants to be left alone suggests that Parvati has at least tried to talk to her about things. It suggests that even though Hermione may not have any friends, there are still people from her own house taking an interest, and probably trying to help her. > It also gives them much less opportunity to develop their > personalities. If you only see people similar to yourself around you, > you will eventually become very limited in your opinions, don't you think? No, to the first, possibly to the second. If that is what actually happens. Broadly speaking, let's divide kids into two categories. Those who make friends easily and those who don't. Those who make friends easily will do so in just about any environment - and will not be greatly inhibited by things like house divisions. Those who don't, are a different matter. In my experience, the best way to help them make friends, and learn those skills, is to create a less daunting atmosphere. One where they have to deal with less people, and one where they know they are likely to be dealing with people similar to themselves. Such environments make it far less intimidating to make friends, and far easier. And once a child has started to make friends in that environment, they start to develop the skills that will allow them to do so more broadly. By giving them access to a more limited environment to begin with, you can greatly increase their chances of eventually being able to fit into the world in general. And consider - at Hogwarts, kids do not only see people similar to themselves. They have classes with other houses. They see other people a lot. They can, and do, talk to each other. There are some friendships across houselines - Percy and Penelope is a pretty clear example. If they want to make friends with people from other houses, they can. But the fact is, most people form friendships with those similar to them anyway. Especially at school. 'Cliqueishness' is rapidly becoming identified as a major factor in American schools, and one that causes some concern. Many kids make friends based on similar characteristics, without any prompting whatsoever. So do many adults. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "Almighty Ruler of the all; Whose power extends to great and small; Who guides the stars with steadfast law; Whose least creation fills with awe; Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace; To those who venture into space." From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat May 3 00:00:27 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My three questions In-Reply-To: <20030502233823.69404.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030503000027.43111.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56837 --- Ladi lyndi wrote: > > --- Laura wrote: > > Really? Am I the only person who never thought > > of this? > > > > I never really > > thought their bet was so far-fetched. > > > > Lynn: > > I never thought about it either until someone > else suggested it. So you're not the only one. > It is an intriguing theory but there are a few > things that bother me with that theory. > > First, can people go forward in time? Maybe they're just good ar divination. ;) Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From fandulin at hotmail.com Fri May 2 22:47:23 2003 From: fandulin at hotmail.com (fandulin) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:47:23 -0000 Subject: My three questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > I am pretty sure at this point that Fred and George ( or rather Gred > and Forge ), certainly used some kind of time travel device to get > this piece of extrordinary information. Whether is is a time turner, > like Hermione used to have, or something else entirely, I don't > know. I am however, convinced that some type of time travel did > happen there. Good explanation as to the Quirrel/scar pain question. However, I think as far as the quidditch bet goes, Fred and George, whom i'm sure were quite up on the teams involved, just had a hunch through their knowledge of the teams and the sport what was going to happen. They bet that Ireland was going to be unbeatable, but that Krum couldn't be beat as a seeker. It was a pretty reasonable bet in my opinion, and as luck would have it, it panned out. Fandulin From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 3 00:47:17 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503010825.00dad7d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030503004717.14397.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56839 > wrote: I don't know what else there that could convince anyone that Hagrid is to die - the movies and the actors really don't count in that respect. Me: Of COURSE they do Tres! The simple fact is, the studios would NOT waste money on hiring an actor to play in a movie when his character is no longer going to be there! And conversely, since they wanted the same actors for all seven movies, there is no other concieivable explanation for only giving him a 5 year contract when there are 7 movies to be made! I think you can rest with an absolute certainty that Ms. Rowlings was extensively consulted before handing out those contracts. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 3 00:54:52 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My three questions In-Reply-To: <20030502233823.69404.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030503005452.15355.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56840 --- Laura wrote: > Really? Am I the only person who never thought > of this? > > I never really > thought their bet was so far-fetched. > Lynn: I never thought about it either until someone else suggested it. So you're not the only one. It is an intriguing theory but there are a few things that bother me with that theory. First, can people go forward in time? We know they can go back. But when they go back, they go to the specific place they were at that time, e.g. Hermione and Harry go the Entrance Hall where they had been 3 hours previously. So, first, if Fred and George could go forward, where would they go if they hadn't been there yet? Would they end up sitting on their future selves' laps? How would they know how far into the future to go when no one knows how long the match is going to be? If they didn't go forward to the match, but instead went forward and checked the Daily Prophet, wouldn't they have known by that time that the gold Ludo gives them is fake? Of course, there's always the possibility that the future Fred and George time traveled back to the present Fred and George and told them who to bet on and they might not have waited long enough to know that their winnings would disappear. Lynn (who's giving up on anything to do with time travel as it just hurts my head too much) ME: I can't buy this line at all. Time-travel is so advanced and restricted no kids (Hermonine being a very rare limited exception) would have access to it. Heck, I don't think too many people know it even exists as a possibility. Plus, if they came back from the future they would have known that the bet was in trouble almost immediately unless of course they traveled back that night from the tent before the DE party! If they did it afterwards they would have already been too suspicious to recommend the bet and you would think they would have given some warning about what was going to happen that night. None of that makes too much sense really. (clever idea though!) I think it was just a logical bet based on two facts...1. Ireland had a much better team and 2. Krum is the world's best seeker. They COULD have lost though if Krum had found the snitch befoe Ireland could have built up the lead, but it was still a reasonably solid logical bet. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat May 3 01:44:02 2003 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (GKJPO) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 01:44:02 -0000 Subject: Timeline Speculations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "xmezumiiru" wrote: > > So I ask again, what was Voldemort doing in the 26 year gap? Where > would Riddle have gone to gain that knowledge of the Dark Arts? What > was so special about 1970 that he started then and not before? Was he > waiting for a special group of people to come into power, or leave > power? Perhaps he was for the government that presided over > Grindelwald's time to leave, as this would be the relative time the > last would. > > Another idea is that if (big if) the Marauders' and Snape's parents > were the original Death Eater, and their parents were the followers > of Grindelwald, perhaps familial obligations are not so far fetched > in the making of the Death Eater and hence the ultimate bias against > Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and others in Slytherin in H. Potter's > generation is not as childish as first appears. > > Any thoughts or comments? > The canon to support this is in CS in the following: Chap 17 from Tom Riddle: "...It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course..." Chap 18 from Dumbledore: "Very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle. I taught him myself, fifty years ago, at Hogwarts. He disappeared after leaving the school...traveled far and wid...sand so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of ourkind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable..." My conjecture: There is no rule that the first Death Eaters were from Hogwarts. It is possible that he went out and got some thugs to be part of his crew. After that was established, he then decided to recruit from Hogwarts to get more, smarter people to help spread his message. On the other hand, we don't know what happened to his "most intimate friends". We can only assume that those friends were from Slytherin, but we don't know if they were close enough to travel with him around the world or if they were only around to encourage their kids to join LV. I would guess that if the DE Generation parents were the first generation of DEs, then wouldn't they be too busy wreaking havoc to have children? I am probably wrong, but it seems that all the children of the DE generation were born after the fall of LV. Kristen From Audra1976 at aol.com Sat May 3 01:56:23 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 21:56:23 EDT Subject: Quote from GOF Message-ID: <32.380f1c1c.2be47bc7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56842 jeanico at securenet.net writes: > "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he > hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." > I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to > move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks > to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? > was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a > witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the > quote properly. Me: Either, as someone stated, Voldemort equates Muggles and Muggle-borns (in his mind there is no difference), OR Voldemort was just comparing them as both fools, as in "...my late father. A Muggle" (Pause. Different thought) "and a fool...very like your dear mother." The comparison between the elder Tom Riddle and Lily Potter is still strange. Is he calling his father a fool for abandoning his child, and at the same time calling Lily a fool for staying and protecting her child? Or are they "fools" in Voldemort's eyes for another reason? I've always thought that Voldemort's true desire is to gain power and immortality for himself, and he is only using the whole Muggle-born/Pureblood prejudice as a front. Maybe Voldemort does buy into the whole "Pureblood" Wizards thing more than I thought, and to Voldemort, his father and Lily Potter are both for the same reason, which is procreating with a Pureblood Witch and Wizard and producing Halfbloods like himself and Harry. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie at knownet.net Sat May 3 02:48:20 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 02:48:20 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's Wand vs. Voldemort's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56843 I was listening to the graveyard scene at the end of GoF... We distinctly hear Voldemort say "kill the spare." Then, Wormtail's voice conjures the spell. How then does Cedric appear in the Priori Incantatum? Are we to assume that Wormtail is using Voldemort's wand? I am curious as to why would he do that and not use his own wand. Furthermore, we know from the Riddle House and after that Voldemort is certainly able to hold a wand even in his terrible state, so what is the purpose of having Wormtail use Voldemort's wand to perform the killing curse on Cedric? Also, when exactly does Wormtail give Voldemort his wand back if he is using that wand instead of his own? After he emerges from the cauldron, Voldie does command Pettigrew to "robe" him, but we never hear about him handing back a wand; yet, he certainly has his wand since he uses it on Harry. Just me rambling... :) I would certainly enjoy hearing your thoughts on the topic. grindieloe From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sat May 3 02:51:34 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 02:51:34 -0000 Subject: Quote from GOF In-Reply-To: <32.380f1c1c.2be47bc7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jeanico at s... writes: > > "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he > > hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." > > I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to > > move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks > > to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? > > was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a > > witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the > > quote properly. Me: V does not say that Lily is exactly like his father- just "very like" him. I don't think the use of the word muggle is being applied to Lily at all here. V thinks of Lily as a mudblood. Pg 321 POA -" You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry..." I also think that in a way, his hatred of mudbloods is just as strong if not stronger than his hatred of muggles. His hatred of muggles stems from his father- the rejection of him and his mother for what they are. IMHO, he hates mudbloods even more because that's what he is and he deperately is denying that (unsuccessfully)to himself. He hates what he is and as a consequence hates anyone who reminds him of that. BTW, while I'm on Tom Riddle's comments from POA, he and Harry are not both half-bloods. "Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by muggles." (pg 317) Harry is a half-blood; born of one pure blood parent and one muggle born parent. Riddle is a mudblood as his father was a muggle. Is the sixteen year old Riddle already in denial in that respect? Self loathing could certainly lead to the kind of cruelty V displays. In additon to his quest for ultimate power, V, IMO is trying to asctively kill the part of himself that he hates that he sees all around him. Linda - who is sitting here wondering if they give out phychology degrees for posting on this board From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sat May 3 03:00:18 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 03:00:18 -0000 Subject: Wormtail's Wand vs. Voldemort's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Grindieloe wrote: > Also, when exactly does Wormtail give Voldemort his wand back if > he is using that wand instead of his own? After he emerges from the > cauldron, Voldie does command Pettigrew to "robe" him, but we never > hear about him handing back a wand; yet, he certainly has his wand > since he uses it on Harry. Me: After Harry was tied to Tom Riddle's grave, he could not see what wormtail was doing. I'm sure that he was finishing his preparations to bring V back, probably including prparing his robes. Then Voldemort pulled the wand from the pocket of his robes (pg 634 GOF). Linda From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat May 3 04:16:42 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 00:16:42 EDT Subject: Reasons to hate Snape Message-ID: <37.380ffc0b.2be49caa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56846 I've been thinking about this for a while...at least since the 'why I hate Snape' threads came up recently. Everyone (even a few of the Snape LOVERS) says that the reason they dislike Snape/ think he's a bad teacher (and human being) is because of the "I see no difference" scene with Hermione. Honestly, that made me like Snape even more....as a 'villiainish' character, anyway. What got me tilting away from being a 100% Snape lover was this little scene: Snape: "Longbottom, at the end of this lesson we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly..." Snape: "...If, as I don't doubt, he has done it wrong, his toad is likely to be poisoned.." I don't know about the rest of you, but if someone threatened to hurt my pet I'd go postal on them. Or maybe I'm more hurt by this because I'm an insane animal lover XP THIS is a sign of bad teaching if there ever was one....I mean, rude remarks are one thing... ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat May 3 05:35:47 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 05:35:47 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts/Hogsmeade (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56847 The recent threads on "Sexy" Snape inspired this filk, set to one of the most drop-dead sexy tunes ever written (by Sondheim, of course!) Hogwarts/Hogsmeade To the tune of Uptown/Downtown from Sondheim's Follies (cut from the original) Dedicated to Haggridd (who will know the original) THE SCENE. Potions Class. SNAPE begins an owl to the Headmaster describing his least favorite student. SNAPE: Now this is the tale of a lad known as Harry, he Was some kid they raised without folks, like Longbottom A duty-free life is his aim, and yea verily, Not even the great Sev'rus Snape Has yet caught him He isn't the least perturbed by House points lost So `twixt him and me it's winter frost And the subject of this evening's owl Claims foul is fair and fair is foul Hogwarts, he wins at Quidditch and gloats Hogsmeade, he's sneaking in with no note Hyperactive Harry, he's My grievance from Gryffindor Hogwarts, he's sticking up for Mudbloods Hogsmeade, he's drenching Draco in mud Hyperactive Harry, he's My grievance from Gryffindor He slaps on his map As he ignores rules And tries to sneak off so meek Making us the fools And soon the sap's in a scrap Quite the rhapsody I know what's on tap, oh Claptrap capsules. Hogwarts, he's tricking Age Lines with lies Hogsmeade, upon Cornelius he spies Ask him, should he be Hogwarts or ?Meade He's one of the those miserable kids with `weed. (SNAPE dispatches his owl, and retires. A Chorus of Portraits of Previous Potions Professors finish the song) SEMI-CHORUS I: We're gonna see Hogsmeade to bully Harry, he's Hogtied, hag-saluting Harry, he . SEMI-CHORUS II: Hi Hi hyperactive Harry, he .. ALL Hogwarts, Hogsmeade, We're gonna go Hogswarts to bully Harry, who's Downwards, earthwards, onwards, go Whole, whole, whole hog to bully Harry who . Hogs! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm Aarrgh!!!!!!! Broadway MIDI is no more!!!! (You now have to purchase their MIDIs on software) http://www.broadwaymidi.com/ (I'm too depressed thinking of all theie links I'll have to remove from HPF to write another filk for at least six hours) From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Sat May 3 06:29:09 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 01:29:09 -0500 Subject: "we haven't seen the last of THEM!!!" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56848 OK, I had a bit too much free time, so I'm trying to compile a list of secondary and semi-minor characters we're just SURE we'll see again in the next three books. Anybody else got any additions? Corrections? "Wow, you're a geek" accusations? Sirius Black Remus Lupin Peter Pettigrew Bill Weasley Fleur Delacour Guileroy Lockhart Rita Skeeter Cornelius Fudge Mundungus Fletcher Arabella Figg Daedalus Diggle Moaning Myrtle Narcissa Malfoy (and family) Alastor Moody Avery the Lestranges Olympe Maxime Igor Karkarroff The Infamous Florence Firenze, Bane, and co. That's all I got. Anybody else? Plumb your wildest theories. I want the ultimate checklist to go through. Hobbit-guy, who REALLY oughta be studying for finals. Oh, well... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From jodel at aol.com Sat May 3 06:48:37 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 02:48:37 EDT Subject: Timeline speculations Message-ID: <1a6.141b2e3f.2be4c045@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56849 > Chris asks; > > What was so special about 1970 that he started then and not before? > Dumbledore became Headmaster and was no longer wherever he had been during the years between 1945 and 1969. We can't be certain, of this, but a great deal of this timing mystery makes sense if we hypothesize that defeating Grindlewald in '45 brought about a career change for Dumbledore, and that Riddle did not surface again until Dumbledore was back at Hogwarts. As for why he was not heard of in the interim; There is no statute of limitations on murder. "Tom Riddle" was wanted in connection with the tripple murder in the muggle village of Little Hangleton in the summer of '45. And when he did finally surface it was under an alias. But Dumbledore had been attempting to monitor his movements during that time. He summarized what was believed of Riddle's movements at the end of CoS. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SusanXG at hotmail.com Sat May 3 04:35:31 2003 From: SusanXG at hotmail.com (Susan XG) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 23:35:31 -0500 Subject: Questions concerning Snape and Lucius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56850 Okay, I have a few questions about Snape and Lucius. 1) Why did Lucius want to send Draco to Durmstrang when he's a alumnus of Hogwarts? Is it really because he wants Draco to be immersed in the Dark Arts completely or is it because he wanted him out of the way? Back in CoS, it was mentioned that Lucius told Draco to stay out of the way during the Chamber controversy. Why? And it's known that Lucius used the whole "I was under the Impervius curse", in order to get out of any charges regarding his allegiance with Voldemort. Was it because he wanted to be a father to Draco (who was only 1 year old when Voldemort was defeated). Did Lucius want to send him away to possibly protect him? Or is Lucius so evil that he doesn't really care about his own child and that he's just breeding him to be a Death Eater? 2) Why did Snape agree to be Lockhart's assistant for the Dueling Club? Whas it because he wanted to show Lockhart up? Did he want to manipulate it so Malfoy would duel Harry? Did Dumbledore encourage Snape to participate? 3) What is the nature of Snape and Lucius' relationship? Are they just simply co-Death Eaters or does it go deeper than that? Are they related? Cousins maybe? Does Snape stay close to the Malfoys because he wants to protect Draco from Voldemort? To spy on the Malfoys because Lucius is one of Voldy's high ranking DEs? Can't wait to see what you guys make of these questions! Susan :o) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From t.forch at mail.dk Sat May 3 09:21:27 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 11:21:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: <20030503004717.14397.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503010825.00dad7d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503112026.00e0c3b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 56851 At 17:47 02-05-03 -0700, you wrote: > > wrote: > > >I don't know what else there that could convince anyone that Hagrid is to >die - >the movies and the actors really don't count in that respect. > >Me: Of COURSE they do Tres! The simple fact is, the studios would NOT >waste money on hiring an actor to play in a movie when his character is no >longer going to be there! And conversely, since they wanted the same >actors for all seven movies, there is no other concieivable explanation >for only giving him a 5 year contract when there are 7 movies to be made! >I think you can rest with an absolute certainty that Ms. Rowlings was >extensively consulted before handing out those contracts. Huggs Becky So - you prefer to believe the length of an actors contract instead of J.K. Rowling herself? Troels From Anne at cnous.net Sat May 3 08:41:51 2003 From: Anne at cnous.net (Anne NGUYEN HOANG) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 10:41:51 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <15CCA474-7D43-11D7-B5F7-000393447E36@cnous.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56852 Susan XG wrote : > Okay, I have a few questions about Snape and Lucius. > > 1) Why did Lucius want to send Draco to Durmstrang when he's a alumnus > of > Hogwarts? Is it really because he wants Draco to be immersed in the > Dark > Arts completely or is it because he wanted him out of the way? Back in > CoS, > it was mentioned that Lucius told Draco to stay out of the way during > the > Chamber controversy. Why? And it's known that Lucius used the whole "I > was > under the Impervius curse", in order to get out of any charges > regarding his > allegiance with Voldemort. Was it because he wanted to be a father to > Draco > (who was only 1 year old when Voldemort was defeated). Did Lucius want > to > send him away to possibly protect him? Or is Lucius so evil that he > doesn't > really care about his own child and that he's just breeding him to be a > Death Eater? > We don't know if Lucius really wanted to send his only son far away from England. We only heard Draco saying that his father is friend with Karkaroff, and that the only reason he's not in a school in which the headmaster will be technically his best buddy is that his mother loves him too much to let him go.... Firstly, In that scene, I only see a child talking big about himself, aka my father knows important persons and has enough power to not chose Dumbledore's school. Secondly, Few posts ago, someone talks about a MoM's official program, I don't know if english wizards can skipped the official education at Hogwarts. We know that student can be expelled (Hagrid) but I do think you need a graduation made by Hogwarts if you want to exercice an important job like apparently Lucius does. There's a general mistrust between the different countries (GOF, the triwizard tournament, and the quidditch world cup scenes both show us that there's a certain bad mood toward "the stranger"), IMHO, people who graduated from outside school can't have high reponsability jobs. By example, a topstudent from Dumstrang can't have Arthur Weasley's job. So Lucius wouldn't want something like that for his heir. And finally, admitting Draco stupidly repeating his father's words there would be two solutions : - Lucius told his son that to show him his power, but never think about it seriously. Lucius and his whole family had been in Hogwarts in the house of Slytherin, why would he send Draco to another school? After all, English wizards surely think it's the best school of the world (isn't it, Hermione ?) - Drago forget the punition part of the sentence. "If you broke once again another new broom, I will send you at Dumstrang, I have a friend who will take of you, very seriously, so go now and brush your teeth....." > > 2) Why did Snape agree to be Lockhart's assistant for the Dueling > Club? Whas > it because he wanted to show Lockhart up? Did he want to manipulate it > so > Malfoy would duel Harry? Did Dumbledore encourage Snape to participate? Because even a few people think on that list *grin* Snape is a responsible teacher. I bet he heard about Lockhart wanting to take care of the duelling club. He didn't want to see dead students, and asked him if he can replace him. The silly Lockhart being a big mouth, turned that proposition into a assistant's deal. > > 3) What is the nature of Snape and Lucius' relationship? Are they just > simply co-Death Eaters or does it go deeper than that? Are they > related? > Cousins maybe? Does Snape stay close to the Malfoys because he wants to > protect Draco from Voldemort? To spy on the Malfoys because Lucius is > one of > Voldy's high ranking DEs? IMHO, your question wants more an answer with speculation than an answer based on canon. So there's technically as many answers as stars in the sky. I think it's a one side friendship on both sides! They seem to be both manipulative about that they feel for each other. On the other hand Snape seems trully surprised when he heard about Lucius at the graveyard with Voldemort. Maybe he thought that Voldemort didn't forgive Lucius about his "Pierre" attitude (the three denying before the sunrise in bible with the christ) and was surprized that Lucius was with Voldemort _and_ alive Annechan From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat May 3 12:03:04 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 05:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reasons to hate Snape In-Reply-To: <37.380ffc0b.2be49caa@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030503120304.88635.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56853 --- Cassie wrote: > I don't know about the rest of you, but if > someone threatened to hurt my pet > I'd go postal on them. Or maybe I'm more hurt > by this because I'm an insane > animal lover XP Lynn: It's funny because this didn't bother me about Snape at all. First, as bad as Snape is, I don't believe any of the students think that he would allow either Trevor or themselves to be seriously harmed. Harry believes that Snape intends to poison him and while Harry takes learning antidotes seriously, there's nothing to suggest that he thinks he could die from the poisoning. (Daily Prophet Headline: HARRY POTTER KILLED IN POTIONS TEST GONE BAD The Daily Prophet has learned the the Boy Who Lived was killed today in his Potions class at Hogwarts when the antidote he made didn't work. He was poisoned to test the antidote. Potions Master Snape is quoted as saying, "I just knew Potter's antidote would work since he's one of my best students so I didn't have a working antidote on hand when I poisoned him." We are all saddened by the loss of Harry Potter in this tragic accident.) People keep talking about Snape's motivational tools and that's exactly how I see this one. We know he and other teachers are frustrated by Neville (e.g. McGonagal telling Neville not to mention to anyone from Durmstrang that he can't perform even a simple switching spell, GoF, p. 208 UK). We really don't know what the teachers think the problem is, lack of ability, lack of concentration, lack of focus, not caring, lazy, etc. This may be one way that Snape is trying to focus Neville. Snape may think that by taking the focus off Neville himself and putting it on Trevor, Neville will work harder to learn. I know that if someone threatened to poison my cats I'd be working a whole lot harder to learn how to counter it than if someone was just threatening me. Lynn (who isn't an insane animal lover but would seriously mangle anyone who tried to hurt her babies.) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From Lynx412 at aol.com Sat May 3 12:10:15 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 08:10:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Timeline speculations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56854 In a message dated 5/3/03 2:49:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jodel at aol.com writes: > As for why he was not heard of in the interim; There is no statute of > limitations on murder. "Tom Riddle" was wanted in connection with the > tripple > murder in the muggle village of Little Hangleton in the summer of '45. And > when he did finally surface it was under an alias. But Dumbledore had been > attempting to monitor his movements during that time. He summarized what > was > believed of Riddle's movements at the end of CoS. Actually I think "Tom Riddle" wasn't wanted. There seems to be no indication that anyone in the village believed Frank Brice when he said he'd seen a strange boy, Frank himself seems not to have commented on the boy having any resemblance to the Riddles, I see no indication that the village folk [or even the Riddles] knew of TMR's existence, and there was no known cause of death for the Riddles. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 12:07:42 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 12:07:42 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points?) In-Reply-To: <5F007700-7CC7-11D7-AD2F-000393447E36@cnous.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Anne NGUYEN HOANG wrote: > James is disliked (understatement) by Snape for illogical reasons... > James is a famous quidditch player, he is a leader, his girlfriend is > miss perfection, and lot of people like him. James certainly played > pranks on him, but it's small potatoes compare to the whomping willow > case. > Snape on the other's way... was intelligent (cf knowing more curses > than seventh grade students) but not enough to be the first student > (James was, Sirius was second, and I bet Lily was third) he wasn't a > headboy (James was) and on the quidditch field, we don't know if he > played, we just know he's skilled enough to be a referee (anyway James > was propabily be the best one) > Snape looks like the eternal second > Agreed. During their whole time at school , he probably tried to beat James at least in one category but never managed to do so (from what we know so far). The only thing Snape was absolutely best at were curses. It is stated by Sirius that he knew more curses in his first year than most students did in their seventh year. However , I don't think he made himself many friends with this talent (except the Slytherins mentioned in GoF). Now there we have James , the "Golden Boy" , the Gryffindor , who was loved by almost everyone . He got the good grades and all the praise , while Severus Snape , the dark Slytherin had to stay behind. Up to a certain degree , I could understand Severus if he was indeed jealous of James . Just think about it. The poor boy was probably longing for some attention but everyone was too busy admiring James to even recognize him. This might be the reason for which he started to dislike James. However , dislike is one thing , hatred another. From Snape's behaviour towards Harry in the HP books we can judge that he doesn't just dislike James but actually hates him. I think that there must be a reason for this , maybe a certain event which involved both , James and Severus an which made them hate each other. I have my own theory on this which I posted some time ago. (message 56270) > On the other hand, his feelings toward sirius have solid grounds to > grow up (i'm personaly against any form of retribution, like death > penalty but I do understand why snape would hate someone who tried to > kill him, even unwillingly). Don't get me wrong , I like Sirius , but I think he really wanted to kill Severus. We know that Sirius was James's best friend and this makes me wonder whether he decided to kill Snape out of friendship for James. Whatever Severus did do to James , in Sirius eyes it must have been reason enough to kill him. He probably knew that his friend , regardless how much he hated Snape , would never have done anything to harm him. So he probably thought it to be best when he took the problem in his own hands which he did by telling Severus how to get past the Whomping Willow. This , again , leads to the assumption that it was indeed a specific event which made the quarrel between Snape and the Marauders escalate. What do you guys think about that ? Anja (who really hopes we will learn more about the relationship between Severus and James) From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 12:45:33 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 12:45:33 -0000 Subject: Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan XG" wrote: > Okay, I have a few questions about Snape and Lucius. > > 1) Why did Lucius want to send Draco to Durmstrang when he's a alumnus of > Hogwarts? Is it really because he wants Draco to be immersed in the Dark > Arts completely or is it because he wanted him out of the way? Back in CoS, > it was mentioned that Lucius told Draco to stay out of the way during the > Chamber controversy. Why? And it's known that Lucius used the whole "I was > under the Impervius curse", in order to get out of any charges regarding his > allegiance with Voldemort. Was it because he wanted to be a father to Draco > (who was only 1 year old when Voldemort was defeated). Did Lucius want to > send him away to possibly protect him? Or is Lucius so evil that he doesn't > really care about his own child and that he's just breeding him to be a > Death Eater? > The relationship between Draco and his father is a pretty interesting topic. In CoS one gets the impression that Lucius is , in fact , everything but a loving father. For me , it is no surprise that Draco grew into such a nasty little kid . He repeats everything he hears at home , probably hoping that this will win him the love and attention of his father . For sending Draco to Durmstrang , I strongly doubt that Lucius actually planned to do something like that. He may have mentioned it once in front of Draco because he was angry about Dumbledore , however , this doesn't mean he really meant it. I think Lucius is very much interested in making Draco hate the "good guys" like Dumbledore , Harry , etc. This gives me the impression that he is already groomed to be a future DE. > > 2) Why did Snape agree to be Lockhart's assistant for the Dueling Club? Whas > it because he wanted to show Lockhart up? Did he want to manipulate it so > Malfoy would duel Harry? Did Dumbledore encourage Snape to participate? > I believe that Snape (probably along with Dumbledore) already suspected that Harry was a Parseltongue and thought the Dueling Club a good opportunity to confirm his suspicions. Beside , he probably despised Lockhart and therefore wanted to expose him as an arrogant idiot. BTW , don't you think it to be quite strange that Snape , who calls wand-waving silly , is so good at it ? > 3) What is the nature of Snape and Lucius' relationship? Are they just > simply co-Death Eaters or does it go deeper than that? Are they related? > Cousins maybe? Does Snape stay close to the Malfoys because he wants to > protect Draco from Voldemort? To spy on the Malfoys because Lucius is one of > Voldy's high ranking DEs? > We know almost nothing about the relationship between Lucius and Severus since we have never seen them talking to each other. The only thing we have is the sudden movement Snape makes after Harry mentions Malfoy's name . It seems very unlikely that they had been friends at school since Sirius would have probably mentioned Lucius among Severus's friends. Don't ask me why , but I somehow have the feeling that Lucius is older than Severus (although it looks a bit different in the movies). Maybe they met through their families , maybe at the DEs , we don't know that for sure. If the Snapes are (like the Malfoys) one of the rich , pureblooded Wizard families it is very likely that they met each other on some occasions. A friendship might have developed and in the end , Lucius managed to persuade Severus to become a follower of Voldemort as well. This is my take on this but I have to admit that it is not very convincing. I am sure JKR has a better idea on this ;-) Anja From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat May 3 13:11:53 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 13:11:53 -0000 Subject: Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: <15CCA474-7D43-11D7-B5F7-000393447E36@cnous.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56857 Susan XG wrote: Okay, I have a few questions about Snape and Lucius. 1) Why did Lucius want to send Draco to Durmstrang when he's a alumnus of Hogwarts? Is it really because he wants Draco to be immersed in the Dark Arts completely or is it because he wanted him out of the way? Back in CoS, it was mentioned that Lucius told Draco to stay out of the way during the Chamber controversy. Why? Me: It wasn't just because it was a 'controversy.' I think Lucius fully expected people to get killed. If Draco didn't stay out of the way, he stood a good chance of either getting killed himself (I really don't think basilisks care one way or the other whether they're killing purebloods, Mudbloods, Muggles or toads) or of being blamed for what was going on. Lucius was trying to protect his son, I believe. He was putting his son in a very dangerous position, but perhaps he thought to take his son out of school would look suspicious. He had a bit of a balancing act to maintain. I think sending Draco to Durmstrang is something he considered, or may have discussed with his wife, for the purpose of protecting Draco. That he didn't is probably more because he thought it would look fishy than because Draco did anything to talk his dad out of it. (His dad may not even know Draco knows it was considered--I could imagine Draco eavesdropping on his parents' discussions with great regularity.) Susan XG wrote: And it's known that Lucius used the whole "I was under the Impervius curse", in order to get out of any charges regarding his allegiance with Voldemort. Me: I believe you mean 'Imperius.' 'Impervius' was a spell used by Hermione to make Harry's glasses 'impervious' to water for playing Quidditch in the rain. (Or it's just a version of 'Imperius' with a little typo. :D ) Anne NGUYEN HOANG wrote: I don't know if english wizards can skipped the official education at Hogwarts. We know that student can be expelled (Hagrid) but I do think you need a graduation made by Hogwarts if you want to exercice an important job like apparently Lucius does. Me: You need to be a credentialed wizard to perform magic. You are not considered to be a wizard otherwise, even if technically you have magical abilities, like Hagrid. We have no evidence that there is no one working in the British Ministry who has attended a school of witchcraft and wizardry elsewhere. It would be illogical for them not to accept the former students of other schools. For instance, during the Grindelwald years, if he was operating mainly in Germany say, or elsewhere on the European mainland, there may have been a bit of a diaspora from there to Britain as people attempted to find somewhere safe to live away from Grindelwald. For those people to find that their educational credentials were no good in another country would be very hindering. From what we can tell, wizarding currency cuts across national boundaries, so there is no reason to believe that educational credentials are any different. Anne NGUYEN HOANG wrote: There's a general mistrust between the different countries (GOF, the triwizard tournament, and the quidditch world cup scenes both show us that there's a certain bad mood toward "the stranger"), IMHO, people who graduated from outside school can't have high reponsability jobs. By example, a topstudent from Dumstrang can't have Arthur Weasley's job. Me: Again, we have absolutely no evidence of this. There is no reason given in canon for why a wizard who attended Durmstrang or Beauxbatons could not apply for a position in the British Ministry of Magic. In fact, Fleur Delacour voices an interest in pursuing employment in Britain, and she will have finished her education at Beauxbatons. I fully expect to see Fleur working in Britain in future books, with no impediment due to her 'foreign' education. (And if her Eenglish improves, it will be easier for JKR to write her dialogue. ) Plus, I believe one reason why Lucius Malfoy knows Karkaroff, in addition to both having been Death Eaters, is because they were at school at Hogwarts together. I have to say, I have been mystified at the idea that Karkaroff is Bulgarian or that Durmstrang is in Bulgaria, simply because of Krum being Bulgarian. Bulgaria is clearly ONE of the countries from which Durmstrang draws its students, but it is a very small country on the Black Sea, situated rather far south to be a place where they need to wear furs as part of their uniforms. Karkaroff says something like "Dear old Hogwarts," when he arrives for the tournament, which is the sort of thing a person would say who'd attended school there. His dialogue is not written with an accent of any kind. He clearly speaks perfectly clear English. Furthermore, he speaks English to HIS STUDENTS, who DO have accents when they speak English. (In addition to Krum, a student who is interested in the wine Karkaroff offers Krum speaks with a thick accent.) The logical conclusion is that a) Karkaroff is from Britain and received a Hogwarts education; b) after convincing the Ministry to release him by naming names, he fled the country to wherever Durmstrang is located (his name suggests that he perhaps had relatives in Eastern Europe, who may have provided him with a refuge); c) he landed a job at Durmstrang and worked his way up through the ranks to be headmaster (which would again mean that a person can have credentials from a school in a different country and not be impeded in employment). It is unclear whether English was always the 'lingua franca' of Durmstrang, to bridge the many languages spoken by students from a variety of countries, or whether it is something that was instituted by an English-raised headmaster (something that would be very like Karkaroff, it seems). But it clearly IS the language in which Karkaroff speaks to his students (again, without any trace of an accent), unlike Madame Maxime and the students of Beauxbatons, who speak to each other in French when it is not imperative that others understand what they are saying. Susan XG wrote: 2) Why did Snape agree to be Lockhart's assistant for the Dueling Club? Was it because he wanted to show Lockhart up? Did he want to manipulate it so Malfoy would duel Harry? Did Dumbledore encourage Snape to participate? Because even a few people think on that list *grin* Snape is a responsible teacher. I bet he heard about Lockhart wanting to take care of the duelling club. He didn't want to see dead students, and asked him if he can replace him. The silly Lockhart being a big mouth, turned that proposition into a assistant's deal. Me: You are probably right about Snape being there to protect the students from the incompetant Lockhart. It is still unclear how 'onto' Lockhart Dumbledore was (whether, for instance, he wanted the lesson of sniffing out a fraud to be the main one the students learned that year in DADA), but he could very well have asked Snape to be present for the students' protection. This is the sort of thing, of course, that continues to lead the students to perpetuate the rumor that Snape wants the DADA job, which I believe is bogus. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From meboriqua at aol.com Sat May 3 13:16:04 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 13:16:04 -0000 Subject: Reasons to hate Snape In-Reply-To: <20030503120304.88635.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > People keep talking about Snape's motivational tools and that's exactly how I see this one. We know he and other teachers are frustrated by Neville (e.g. McGonagal telling Neville not to mention to anyone from Durmstrang that he can't perform even a simple switching spell, GoF, p. 208 UK). We really don't know what the teachers think the problem is, lack of ability, lack of concentration, lack of focus, not caring, lazy, etc. This may be one way that Snape is trying to focus Neville. Snape may think that by taking the focus off Neville himself and putting it on Trevor, Neville will work harder to learn. > I know that if someone threatened to poison my cats I'd be working a whole lot harder to learn how to counter it than if someone was just threatening me.> This is where I have to say survival techniques in the WW really are different from the world where we live. If I knew someone was trying to poison my cat, I'd go after them with a vengeance. If I was a witch, I'd be brewing counter potions like mad, and maybe practicing a hex or two to aim at the offending witch/wizard. If Neville went running to his grandmother about Trevor, my guess is she'd be livid that he couldn't prevent Trevor from being poisoned. People in the WW are more covert than we are, and need to know how to watch their backs in a way that we don't (Ginny and the diary, Dementors, invisibility cloaks, and the Imperius Curse are all examples of this). As much I hate to say this, in the parameters of the WW, Dumbledore is probably doing the right thing by allowing professors like Snape and Trelawney to run wild at Hogwarts. They really do prepare young witches and wizards to magically arm themselves in the best way possible, whether it be by spotting a fake, brewing a counter poison, deflecting a curse, and so on. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************ From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 3 13:19:45 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 08:19:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points?) References: Message-ID: <000c01c31176$aac00570$3bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56859 From: "Anne(Anja)" > > > On the other hand, his feelings toward sirius have solid grounds to > > grow up (i'm personaly against any form of retribution, like death > > penalty but I do understand why snape would hate someone who tried > to > > kill him, even unwillingly). > > Don't get me wrong , I like Sirius , but I think he really wanted to > kill Severus. We know that Sirius was James's best friend and this > makes me wonder whether he decided to kill Snape out of friendship > for James. Whatever Severus did do to James , in Sirius eyes it must > have been reason enough to kill him. He probably knew that his > friend , regardless how much he hated Snape , would never have done > anything to harm him. So he probably thought it to be best when he > took the problem in his own hands which he did by telling Severus how > to get past the Whomping Willow. > This , again , leads to the assumption that it was indeed a specific > event which made the quarrel between Snape and the Marauders escalate. > What do you guys think about that ? I don't believe that Sirius was truly trying to kill Snape. I see Sirius as a person who acts without thinking about the consequences. He knows that Snape is obsessed with finding out where Lupin goes every month, he finds out that Snape saw Lupin and Pomfrey walking across the grounds (can't remember if he saw anything in connection to the Whomping Willow at the moment), and he comes up with what, to him, is a brilliant prank. "That greasy haired git keeps following us around and won't leave us alone. I think I'll give him a scare and see how eager he is to bother us next time!" So he tells him the secret of the Willow. I will grant that, even decades later, though, Sirius does not seem to completely understand what the potential consequences of that little prank could have been and almost were. I can see him deciding to scoff at them, though, figuring that Snape was never in any danger and he could just get himself out of there. Maybe he even won't allow himself to acknowledge how bad what he did was. I would have thought, though, that even if James's argument, "Sirius, you could have gotten him killed. He actually *saw* Moony down there, all Moony had to do was run down there and Snape'd've been dead. And now, thanks to you, he knows Remus's secret!" didn't get through, you think Remus himself would've had something to say. "Sirius, *why* did you do it? You *know* my worst fear is harming another person while in werewolf form, and I almost *killed* Severus. How could you put me through that?!" To sum up, I do find it interesting that Sirius, even years later, still seems to think there was nothing wrong with what he did, but I think it was more because he didn't think before he acted. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sat May 3 14:24:55 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:24:55 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points?) In-Reply-To: <000c01c31176$aac00570$3bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56860 In referance to the prank Kelly said: > To sum up, I do find it interesting that Sirius, even years later, still > seems to think there was nothing wrong with what he did, but I think it was > more because he didn't think before he acted. Me: Canon has made it obvious that the animosity between Sirius and Snape is a two way street. However, I have to wonder how much of the animosity that Sirius feels toward Snape is rooted in their school days. I am in the camp that feels Sirius did not intend to put Snape in mortal danger and by extension was the type, at least at the time, that did not consider the possible consequences of his actions. That said, I don't think he hated Snape while at school. I see the relationship as being one of an active dislike, but not to the degree of loathing that he seems to harbor toward SS now (as of GOF). IMO, Sirius's current hatred of SS probably stems from Snape's DE activities. At the time that we see Sirius's hatred at its strongest, he has just recently escaped Azkaban. Unless he already knew, during VW1, that Snape was spying for Dumbledore, he would have had no way to find out post Azkaban, at this point in the story. If he didn't know, it would explain his shock at the revelation that Snape was teaching at Hogwarts. He still thought that SNape was a loyal DE. There was no time for him to rationalize in the shrieking shack that Dumbledore might know something that he doesn't. I'm sure, since DD was coresponding with him in GOF, that he now knows DD's reasons for trusting SS but he may not have yet made the leap of faith required to put this long smoldering hatred and distrust aside just yet. This would fit in to the way he looks at SS at the end of GOF. Linda-hoping this post makes sense as she was rambling a bit From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 3 14:38:38 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:38:38 -0000 Subject: 'Fan' quote In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503112026.00e0c3b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: >> >So - you prefer to believe the length of an actors contract instead of J.K. Rowling herself?<<< I believe Rowling, but she's been known to play tricks with words-- ("c-can't t-tell you how p-pleased I am to meet you.") She didn't say Hagrid was going to be around in *all* the rest of the books. She did say that she wasn't telling who would live and who wouldn't. And then there's ghosts, flashbacks, pensieves, time travel, dementor visions, enchanted diaries and who knows what other ways of bringing back the past. I'm afraid I haven't got much hope for Hagrid. Pippin From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 14:43:38 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:43:38 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points?) In-Reply-To: <000c01c31176$aac00570$3bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > To sum up, I do find it interesting that Sirius, even years later, still > seems to think there was nothing wrong with what he did, but I think it was > more because he didn't think before he acted. > Oh , I do believe he thought before acting. This "prank" seems to have been a pretty calculating thing to do. I don't think it was some spontaneous idea that came to his mind one day. To me , it looks like something he had carefully planned before it was finally carried out. When you think about it , the whole thing would have been less dangerous for Lupin if Severus had actually been killed by the werewolf . Since nobody except Dumbledore , Pomfrey and the Marauders knew Remus's secret , Dumbledore could have easily invented some explanation for Snape's death. I don't think he would have given out that Lupin transformed into a werewolf every month. How Remus himself would have suffered if he had actually killed someone is a completely different question which Sirius probably didn't ponder about. Then , why didn't Sirius tell James about the prank ? I had always assumed that ALL the Marauders loved to play pranks on Snape. So why did he decide to do this one on his own ? My answer : Because he knew that James wouldn't have approved of his plan ! I honestly believe that James had no idea what Sirius was up to until he was told by someone (possibly Peter or Lily) only a few minutes before the actual thing happened. BTW , it seems like Sirius still hates Snape so much for what he did when they were at school (whatever that was) , that he doesn't regret what he did back then. Anja (who likes Sirius almost as much as Snape ;-) ) From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 14:52:41 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:52:41 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > IMO, Sirius's current hatred of SS probably stems from Snape's DE > activities. At the time that we see Sirius's hatred at its > strongest, he has just recently escaped Azkaban. Unless he already > knew, during VW1, that Snape was spying for Dumbledore, he would > have had no way to find out post Azkaban, at this point in the > story. If he didn't know, it would explain his shock at the > revelation that Snape was teaching at Hogwarts. He still thought > that SNape was a loyal DE. There was no time for him to rationalize > in the shrieking shack that Dumbledore might know something that he > doesn't. I'm sure, since DD was coresponding with him in GOF, that > he now knows DD's reasons for trusting SS but he may not have yet > made the leap of faith required to put this long smoldering hatred > and distrust aside just yet. This would fit in to the way he looks > at SS at the end of GOF. > Sirius didn't know at all that Severus was a DE . Here's what he says in GOF after Harry , Ron and Hermione have told him about Karkaroff showing Snape something on his arm. "But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater - not that that means much. Plenty of them were never caught. And Snape s certainly clever and cunning enough to keep himself out of trouble." and later : "There's still the fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape, and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot of other people wouldn't, but I just can't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort." As much as he loathes Severus , Sirius doesn't think him to be a DE , not even a former one. I really wonder what will happen when he finds out that DD is actually employing someone who had worked for Voldemort once. Anja From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 3 15:12:33 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:12:33 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anne(Anja)" wrote: This "prank" seems to > have been a pretty calculating thing to do. I don't think it was some spontaneous idea that came to his mind one day. To me , it looks like something he had carefully planned before it was finally carried out. > > When you think about it , the whole thing would have been less > dangerous for Lupin if Severus had actually been killed by the > werewolf . <<< Indeed. Which is why I think that the prank was spontaneous on Sirius's part, but carefully planned by Lupin. Sirius was manipulated by Lupin, who was an old hand at it. ("I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally...I led others along with me.") --PoA ch. 18. Sirius probably didn't think beyond the cleverness of tricking Snape into entering a werewolf's den, just as he didn't think beyond the cleverness of making Peter secret-keeper. If Snape had been killed, would anyone have dared to confess that Sirius had been the one to tell Snape how to get into the Willow? It would have looked like Snape had found his way in on his own, especially since Snape had a reputation for spying and sticking his nose in other people's business. Dumbledore would have defended Lupin, thinking that Snape's death was a tragic accident. The Board of Governors would have wanted the whole thing hushed up like Myrtle's death. So Lupin might well have gotten away with it. James, Peter and Sirius had little to lose if Snape's spying made it too dangerous for them to continue their moonlight escapades. They could have just called a halt to it. But Lupin would have lost the only thing that had ever made his transformations bearable. Pippin Evil!Lupin theories since message 39362 From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sat May 3 15:53:15 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:53:15 -0000 Subject: Wizard Suicide Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56865 What do you guys think about wizard suicide? JKR gives us a Wizarding World which is plagued with the same problems as the Muggle World, only in different forms. Political corruption, racism, the whole deal. But I don't remember any references to suicide at all. Do you think suicide might be a theme or at least occurrence later in the books? We're told they're getting darker, and JKR gives the Wizarding World the same problems as the Muggle one. I don't see why suicide *wouldn't* be an issue. Or if not an issue, at least an occurrence. Not only that, how do wizards kill themselves, assuming they wanted to? We're given a lot of canon that "normal" =) accidents don't harm wizards as much- falls, car accidents, ect. So how would a wizard do it? Do you point your wand at yourself and say the Killing Curse? Kinda weird if you ask me. Just my morbid curiosity showing itself, that's all. Does anyone else ever wonder about weird stuff like this? -Laura From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat May 3 16:26:52 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 12:26:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratin... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" > wrote: > > > There is absolutely zero canon to support the notion that Snape is > > unfair with House Points. > > PoA, chapter 9: > > 'Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf and > the true wolf?' sais Snape. > > Everyone sat in motionless silence; everyone except Hermione, whose > hand, as it so often did, had shot straight into the air. > > 'Anyone?' Snape said, ignoring Hermione. > > > > 'Please, sir,' said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, 'the > werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout > of the werewolf -' > > 'That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger,' > said Snape cooly. 'Five more points from Gryffindor for being an > insufferable know-it-all.' > > Bill Okay, I know in this scene we're supposed to feel anger towards Snape for taking points away, but c'mon. Just look at it from a simpler POV: Snape *did not* call on Hermione (say whatever you want about him being a nasty insufferable git). She called out in class. She should know better. I have classes that I would never *dream* of speaking out in. Even if the teacher doesn't call on you, you don't yell out the answer; that's just stupid. Especially in this situation. Hermione *knows* Snape is a "git" yet she still yells out the answer ... perhaps not yells but you know what I mean. She *knows* he takes points off for things like that yet she still answers. She. Should. Have. Known. Better. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who used the HP4GU method of acronyms in an English paper - SALAD.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat May 3 16:35:47 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 12:35:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sexy Lucius Malfoy (was: Sexy Snape) Message-ID: <93.2d9dd876.2be549e3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56867 In a message dated 4/29/03 11:05:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, stix4141 at hotmail.com writes: > Where do we rate Lucius in terms of sexiness? > Lucius is sexy as all hell. I liked him from CoS when he tried to get Dumbledore fired - and I see why, but that's a *whole* other story. Lucius obviously has lots of power, the desire to get things his way, and the will to get what he wants. I love that in a character! His power may not be a position of authority per se, but we have seen him change the tides. He also does alot "charity" work (donating to St. Mungo's) - but no one believes that's out of the goodness of his heart, right? I hate to say it, but when he's yelling at Dobby at the end of CoS ... wow. He has such power. To me, power = sexy. There's more to it, but power's the most of it. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ (Who's not sure if she'd like these people in real life, but loves them in the books!) --I like Gryffindor War for a band name...... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From btk6y at virginia.edu Sat May 3 17:05:20 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:05:20 -0000 Subject: "we haven't seen the last of THEM!!!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Pessin" wrote: > I'm trying to compile a list of > secondary and semi-minor characters we're just SURE we'll see >again in the next three books. Anybody else got any additions? >Corrections? -I am sure that we will see Colenol Fubster (Aunt Marge's friend) again; I know she said he was a muggle, but I am very suspicious with how she wrote about him. Bobby From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat May 3 17:08:52 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:08:52 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points?) In-Reply-To: <000c01c31176$aac00570$3bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Remus himself would've had something to say. "Sirius, *why* did you do it? You *know* my worst fear is harming another person while in werewolf form, and I almost *killed* Severus. How could you put me through that?!" Me: THIS is my biggest, 'can't get past' problem with Sirius. Even if I couldn't tolerate Snape *at all* I don't think I could get past the fact that he put Remus in that position. Remus was given the Shack and the Willow by DD most likely against a huge outcry to protect him from doing EXACTLY WHAT Black set him up to do to Severus. Now if Remus was "just another student" and Sirius was "just that hothead" I might be able to go along with the, "he didn't mean it he just didn't think it out" excuse. But sorry. Remus is one of his BEST FRIENDS. He knew the deal, he knew why the SS and the WW were in existance and HE BLEW IT. He almost DESTROYED HIS FRIEND'S LIFE. Add to that he almost murdered a student, despite anyone's opinion of that student or what that student may or may not have done to "deserve" or "have it coming" and you have a character that I can't trust as far as I could throw. (And yes I know someone here is going to post "but he didn't". Don't bother. I don't care. He wanted to, whether he thought about the final consequences or not, there was at least a minute where, yes, he wanted Severus to get the sharp end of that tooth.) Of course this also begs the question...who was James *really* saving, Severus or Remus? I'm going to hazard a guess here that Severus HAD figured out what was going on and had told the golden boys that he was going to expose Remus to the entire school in some spectacular manner--so Sirius probably decided to head him off and do it for him, making him (Severus) the star of his own show. Unfortunately, that show is a two- man act. Mel, who can't get past "Serious(ly) Black" either but that's a whole 'nother topic From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 3 17:23:07 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 10:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quote from GOF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030503172307.33185.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56870 Linda wrote: Self loathing could certainly lead to the kind of cruelty V displays. In additon to his quest for ultimate power, V, IMO is trying to asctively kill the part of himself that he hates that he sees all around him. ME Your absolutely right. Hatred is usually in one way or the other an externalization of sel-loathing. Just as meglomania is most often a compensation for it. A great real-life tragic example of that is Adolf Hitler. There were rumors going around Nazi circles early that Hitler's REAL father was Jewish (His mother worked for the man as his maid). It appears Hitler believed it too although it actually wasn't true. His hatred of Jews and subesguent genocide against them was all about wiping out that which he hated in himself. His meglomania was an act of self-denial of his feelings of inadequacy. It is almost comic if it wasn't for the fact that millions of people died and the world plungged into a terrible world war all because of this man's personal angst! Voldemort's cruelty and hates have a very close parallel here. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sat May 3 16:16:48 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 18:16:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Suicide References: Message-ID: <002001c3118f$67279a30$4c8d6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56871 Laura wrote: What do you guys think about wizard suicide? JKR gives us a Wizarding World which is plagued with the same problems as the Muggle World, only in different forms. Political corruption, racism, the whole deal. But I don't remember any references to suicide at all. Do you think suicide might be a theme or at least occurrence later in the books? We're told they're getting darker, and JKR gives the Wizarding World the same problems as the Muggle one. I don't see why suicide *wouldn't* be an issue. Or if not an issue, at least an occurrence. Not only that, how do wizards kill themselves, assuming they wanted to? Me: Well, I have thought about how a wizard would kill himself, yes, I suppose there're may ways, but there's at least one reference in canon: "If he weren't (mad) when he went to Azkaban, he will be now," said Ern in his slow voice. "I'd blow meself up before I set foot in that place." PoA.Ch.3 "The night bus" CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 15:20:35 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:20:35 -0000 Subject: Terms for Blood (WAS: Re: Quote from GOF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56872 Hi, there was some discussion about the quote "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father," [Voldemort] hissed softly. "A Muggle and a fool... very like your dear mother." (GoF, p. 560, British First Ed.) I have found that this is not the only place where the definitions "Muggle = person without magical capabilities", "Mudblood = person of Muggle parentage", half-blood (just my reasoning): "person with one Muggle parent" don't seem to be exactly right. My quote is: "[Hagrid] looked at Harry "It'd show `em all... yeh don't have ter be pureblood ter do it." (GoF, p. 396, British First Ed.) Hagrid is referring to Harry's winning the Tournament, saying that Harry isn't a pureblood ? implying that he's a Mudblood or half-blood (more likely the second). Even though he had a witch and a wizard for parents. Also, in CoS, Hagrid says something like there isn't a wizarding family left that doesn't have some Muggle ancestor. (I cannot, unfortunately, find the exact quote, as I only have the first 3 books in Hungarian.) Meaning that any family with a Muggle ancestor clinging to the family tree is in a way not pureblooded. I think the World War II parallel can be extended to the question of "Who's Jewish?" As time wore on, it was enough to have a Jewish great-grandfather to be categorised as Jewish, while Jewish religion states clearly that one if Jewish only if one's mother is. But these definitions are always twisted according to what the people in power wish them to be (especially because the definitions themselves don't make much sense anyway, we're not talking about objective categories, or things that should have any relevance at all). Probably the same with the Mudblood - pureblood - half-blood theory. Maybe you've got witch/wizard parents, but your Mum was a Mudblood, so you're a Mudblood, full stop. The fact that Hagrid gets "confused" with these terms probably means that the definitions have been "violated" before, most probably during Voldemort's first reign of terror ? the extended definition has become customary. And so Voldemort, by calling Lily a Muggle, and Hagrid, by implying that Harry's not a pureblood, are not making mistakes after all. Love, Alice From jmeec316 at aol.com Sat May 3 19:10:06 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:10:06 -0000 Subject: Wizard Suicide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura" wrote: > Not only that, how do wizards kill themselves, assuming they wanted > to? > > We're given a lot of canon that "normal" =) accidents don't harm > wizards as much- falls, car accidents, ect. So how would a wizard do > it? Do you point your wand at yourself and say the Killing Curse? > > Kinda weird if you ask me. > > Just my morbid curiosity showing itself, that's all. > > Does anyone else ever wonder about weird stuff like this? > > -Laura I was thinking about it...and I think wizards CAN die from severe injuries. For instance, everyone was worried that Harry was going to die when he fell from his broom in Grim Defeat in PoA. p.180 American Hardback "You fell off," said Fred. "Must've been-what-50 feet?" "We thought you died," said Alicia, who was shaking. Then Hermione says on the following page that Dumbledore slowed him down before he hit the ground. I always assumed that this is the reason Harry did not die from the fall. Now, I don't remember Alicia's history(it hasn't been mentioned in the books, has it?), but Fred is from an all-wizarding family. Why would he and the rest of the Gryffindors be so worried about Harry if a fall like that doesn't kill wizards? Another canon example I can think of is also in PoA. When Sirius breaks into the Gryffindor's tower, he has a knife. Firstly, Sirius wanted to kill Wormtail, so obviously the knife would've done the job! (I guess you can argue that Wormtail was in rat form, but he is still a wizard, regardless...) Secondly, the knife terrifies Ron. Now, why would Ron be scared of the knife if it couldn't kill him? So my final conclusion is that magic, like muggle medicine, can't fix all injuries--especially the most serious ones. And if a wizard wanted to commit suicide, s/he probably could find a way that doesn't necessarily involve cursing himself/herself. That's just my 2 knuts :-D ~J From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Sat May 3 19:18:36 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:18:36 -0000 Subject: Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > > The logical conclusion is that a) Karkaroff is from Britain and > received a Hogwarts education; b) after convincing the Ministry to > release him by naming names, he fled the country to wherever > Durmstrang is located (his name suggests that he perhaps had > relatives in Eastern Europe, who may have provided him with a > refuge); c) he landed a job at Durmstrang and worked his way up > through the ranks to be headmaster (which would again mean that a > person can have credentials from a school in a different country and > not be impeded in employment). It is unclear whether English was > always the 'lingua franca' of Durmstrang, to bridge the many > languages spoken by students from a variety of countries, or whether > it is something that was instituted by an English-raised headmaster > (something that would be very like Karkaroff, it seems). But it > clearly IS the language in which Karkaroff speaks to his students > (again, without any trace of an accent), unlike Madame Maxime and > the students of Beauxbatons, who speak to each other in French when > it is not imperative that others understand what they are saying. > > --Barb > Okay, I see your point, but I wonder if Rowling would choose to give the headmaster of a school in Northern Europe with students who seem to be from Eastern Europe the name "Igor Karkaroff" but write him as an Englishman? Perhaps he was from Eastern Europe but chose to attend Hogwarts? It would seem that he spent time in Britain because so many people are acquainted with him--Snape, Moody, Lucius... So: what if he attended Hogwarts, decided to stay in Britain after graduation, got involved in Voldie's world, then fled back home after it was all over? From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Sat May 3 19:25:24 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:25:24 -0000 Subject: Question about Narcissa and the DEs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56875 It seems very clear that Narcissa Malfoy is not a Death Eater. But there ARE some married couples that are both members of Voldie's circle. Why Lucius, but not Narcissa? Is it possible that she doesn't approve? Remember, she was the one who wanted to keep Draco out of Durmstrang--ostensibly because it was too far away, but what if the real reason was that she didn't want him to attend a school so immersed in the Dark Arts? My friend offered up an interesting suggestion: what if becoming a Death Eater is invitation only? Perhaps Narcissa didn't receive an invite? What do y'all think? Elisabeth, (who believes it possible that Narcissa is an Evans, and didn't receive her invite because she is a "mudblood"...) From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Sat May 3 19:30:02 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 12:30:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions concerning Snape and Lucius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56876 >From: "Susan XG" > >Okay, I have a few questions about Snape and Lucius. > >2) Why did Snape agree to be Lockhart's assistant for the Dueling Club? >Whas >it because he wanted to show Lockhart up? Did he want to manipulate it so >Malfoy would duel Harry? Did Dumbledore encourage Snape to participate? > Me: I think it simply of a case where there was no one else who would do it. Probably the ideal person to do it would be Flitwick. Hermione tells Harry and Ron that she heard that Flitwick was a dueling champion. CS Chapter 11 US Ed. It may be rumor, but it makes sense since he is the charms teacher. However, the teachers knew that Lockhart was dangerous, just look what happened when he tried to heal Harry's broken arm in the previous chapter. So, Flitwick wouldn't go anywhere near Lockhart. So why would Snape agree? I'm not sure. Maybe he saw it as something useful for the Slytherin's to know. Maybe DD asked him. Maybe he justed like the idea of dueling Lockhart. Rosebeth _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jmeec316 at aol.com Sat May 3 19:32:40 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:32:40 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratin... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" > > wrote: > > PoA, chapter 9: > > > > 'Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf > and > > the true wolf?' sais Snape. > > > > Everyone sat in motionless silence; everyone except Hermione, whose > > hand, as it so often did, had shot straight into the air. > > > > 'Anyone?' Snape said, ignoring Hermione. > > > > > > > > 'Please, sir,' said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, 'the > > werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The > snout > > of the werewolf -' > > > > 'That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss > Granger,' > > said Snape cooly. 'Five more points from Gryffindor for being an > > insufferable know-it-all.' > > > > Bill > > Okay, I know in this scene we're supposed to feel anger towards Snape for > taking points away, but c'mon. Just look at it from a simpler POV: Snape > *did not* call on Hermione (say whatever you want about him being a nasty > insufferable git). She called out in class. She should know better. > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > (Who used the HP4GU method of acronyms in an English paper - SALAD.) Now from me-- OK. Call me crazy, but I always thought Hermione was trying to hide the truth about Lupin here. Now, she is obviously not happy about what Snape is doing...But why?? The first time I read the book, I thought that she was just defending Lupin as a teacher and expressing her distaste for Snape--just like the other Gryffindors. But think about it...extra work doesn't bother her--not ever from Snape. She loves it! Second time around I remembered that Hermione deduced that Lupin was a werewolf early on-- soon after the boggart. So if she already knew what Lupin was in this scene, then her behavior can be seen in a whole new light. I think thoughts were running through her mind that if everyone had to do a werewolf assignment, surely SOMEONE besides her would be able to put it all together!! Now, I'm not sure if Hermione caught on to the fact that Snape was assigning the essay deliberately...but she had her ideas about the consequences of discussing werewolfs. Think about it...Hermione usually DOES raise her hand. Yes, she's annoying about it...she waves her arms, makes noises, etc, so she'll be called on. But she rarely acts out of line in class unless she has reason to. Her outbursts were her way of trying to stop Snape from releasing too much werewolf info that could lead to the others linking it to Lupin's mysterious monthly ailments. Again, my 2 knuts! ~J From deadlyvampirekat at aol.com Sat May 3 20:47:06 2003 From: deadlyvampirekat at aol.com (deadlyvampirekat at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:47:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry & Lord Voldemort's Wands Message-ID: <19b.1472d3c2.2be584ca@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56878 sorry, you may have covered this but, it is (my opinion) highly unlikely that a feather or hair or whatever would come from the same animal alot of times. And that is what would have to happen for the reverse spell effect to happen. And with the added fact that the reverse spell effect is known about, wand makers would be less likely to to take feather/hair, whatever from the same animal. no disrespect to anybody. ~ TaTu_Black not gonna get us p.s. i'm new by the way. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sat May 3 23:34:39 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:34:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2752 Message-ID: <143.10465394.2be5ac0f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56879 Cheryl the Lynx states; >Actually I think "Tom Riddle" wasn't wanted. There seems to be no indication that anyone in the village believed Frank Brice when he said he'd seen a strange boy, Frank himself seems not to have commented on the boy having any resemblance to the Riddles, I see no indication that the village folk [or even the Riddles] knew of TMR's existence, and there was no known cause of death for the Riddles.< *sigh* Well of course he wasn't wanted for questioning by the *Muggle* authorities. Do you honestly think that you can let off three AKs in a Muggle villiage and the MoM won't get involved? That the ww thinks that killing Muggles by means of Dark (Unforgivable!) curses does not constitute a *crime*? That somebody having wiped out a family of the same name as the previous term's Head Boy -- who were his closest blood relatives it seems, even if he did not live with them -- will not at least have the MoM wanting to *talk* to him? Who CARES what the villagers think? Tom Riddle didn't disapear for their sake. He was hiding from the *wizarding* authorities. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sat May 3 23:39:27 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:39:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2752 Message-ID: <91.2d7d9a70.2be5ad2f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56880 Cheryl the Lynx states; >Actually I think "Tom Riddle" wasn't wanted. There seems to be no indication that anyone in the village believed Frank Brice when he said he'd seen a strange boy, Frank himself seems not to have commented on the boy having any resemblance to the Riddles, I see no indication that the village folk [or even the Riddles] knew of TMR's existence, and there was no known cause of death for the Riddles.< *sigh* Well of course he wasn't wanted for questioning by the *Muggle* authorities. Do you honestly think that you can let off three AKs in a Muggle villiage and the MoM won't get involved? That the ww thinks that killing Muggles by means of Dark (Unforgivable!) curses does not constitute a *crime*? That somebody having wiped out a family of the same name as the previous term's Head Boy -- who were his closest blood relatives it seems, even if he did not live with them -- will not at least have the MoM wanting to *talk* to him? Who CARES what the villagers think? Tom Riddle didn't disapear for their sake. He was hiding from the *wizarding* authorities. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Sat May 3 23:47:40 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:47:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about Narcissa and the DEs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56881 In a message dated 5/3/2003 1:28:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com writes: > > It seems very clear that Narcissa Malfoy is not a Death Eater. But > there ARE some married couples that are both members of Voldie's > circle. Why Lucius, but not Narcissa? Is it possible that she > doesn't approve? Remember, she was the one who wanted to keep Draco > out of Durmstrang--ostensibly because it was too far away, but what > if the real reason was that she didn't want him to attend a school so > immersed in the Dark Arts? > > Everyone seems to portray Narcissa, especially in fanfic, either as the ditzy blonde trophy wife, or the hostage bride, (not that I don't like some of those stories), but it's still left pretty much open whether she is, if not an actual DE, at least on her husband's side. For instance, where is she at the QWC riot if not in a mask? Why wouldn't she be in the woods protecting the son whom she can't bear to send to Drumstrang because "it's too far away". (In all fairness to the other side, she might not want her son to learn the Dark Arts to such an extent, but with Lucius around, that's pretty much a moot point anyway) And is that look "like she's got dung under her nose" for her husband and son (as Harry thinks) or Hermione? Oh, and I doubt Narcissa is related to Lily. Lucius is so rabid about that, and the Wizarding World seems to be so small I'm sure he'd know. The Queen Of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sun May 4 00:11:18 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 00:11:18 -0000 Subject: Question about Narcissa and the DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56882 Elisabeth wrote: It seems very clear that Narcissa Malfoy is not a Death Eater. But there ARE some married couples that are both members of Voldie's circle. Why Lucius, but not Narcissa? Is it possible that she doesn't approve? Remember, she was the one who wanted to keep Draco out of Durmstrang--ostensibly because it was too far away, but what if the real reason was that she didn't want him to attend a school so immersed in the Dark Arts? I reply: I totally agree with you about Narcissa, and think that the most she's technically guilty of, as far as we can tell, is associating with the rest of her family. Well, okay, we have GoF Ch.9, where Draco is hiding in the woods while that hooded group of wizards was torturing the Roberts family after the Quidditch World Cup. And Draco doesn't *deny* that his parents are in that group of wizards. He says: "Well... if they were, I wouldn't be likely to tell you, would I, Potter?" (GoF, Ch.9, 122, US edition) So, she *could* be there, I guess. What's I find to be most enigmatic about Narcissa is that, as you pointed out, she's the one who made sure Draco didn't go to Durmstrang. >From GoF, Ch.11, 165, US - I added numbers before the major points in the paragraph: "...Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than Hogwarts, you know. 1) He knows the headmaster, you see. Well, 2) you know his opinion of Dumbledore - the man's such a Mudblood- lover - and 3) Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff. 4) But Mother didn't like the idea of me going to school so far away. Father says 5) Durmstrang takes a far more sensible line than Hogwarts about the Dark Arts. Durmstrang students actually learn them, not just the defense rubbish we do...." So, we know that the conversation about Draco going to Durmstrang involved at least five points: 1) Lucius knows Karkaroff. 2) Lucius doesn't like Dumbledore. 3) Durmstrang doesn't admit muggleborns. 4) Narcissa thinks it's too far away. 5) Durmstrang students learn the Dark Arts. I think it's really weird that Draco doesn't talk about his family's long tradition of being in Slytherin House. Oh well - maybe it was a factor, and maybe not. But out of all of the points that we do have, it's point 4 that wins the day? Distance? The other four points are major, I think. They're ideological. They're at least bigger factors than the distance to the school, which seems like such a cop-out excuse, especially for people who can use Portkeys and Floo Powder to travel. Given the context we have for the Malfoys, it probably *should* have been more important for Draco to study with Karkaroff, away from Dumbledore, without muggleborn students, and be learn ingthe Dark Arts, right? You'd think all of that'd outweight the distance factor alone, wouldn't you? So, it's too far away? That's is *so* lame. That was Narcissa's big bargaining chip? *She* won? Aside from Hagrid and the Weasleys, who constantly group the family *together* as 'bad news' or as 'part of Voldemort's inner circle,' or 'some of his most loyal supporters,' we don't actually have proof that Narcissa done or been associated with anything evil at all. She's got no mention in the Graveyard, and she's definitely not standing silently with her husband, because he's got Wormtail on his left, and the space, "wide enough for two people, that separated Malfoy and the next man." (GoF, Ch.33, 650, US) The Lestranges, to whom Sirius refers as "a married couple," in GoF Ch.27, should be in that space. And beyond the two-person space, the "next man," and we don't find out who that is. We don't have canon on the existence of Mmes. Goyle, Crabbe, and Nott, and certainly not on whether or not they're all Death Eaters along with their 'husbands.' Technically, we don't even have enough canon to establish that Messrs. Goyle, Crabbe, and Nott in the circle are even the fathers of the students by the same names. There could be any relationship there, or even possibly none at all. Oh, and one more thing. Dobby. We do have Dobby on record: "Dobby could tell Harry Potter his old masters were - were - bad Dark wizards!" (GoF, Ch.21, 381, US) Does Draco count as a 'master?' He never mentions Dobby, ever. Does Narcissa count? I'd say yes, along with Lucius - the couple. Draco is probably included in that, but Dobby doesn't say that they're Death Eaters, just that they're Dark Wizards. And to be super- technical, the 'bad' might not necessarily be derived from the 'dark,' in other words, 'bad' might be an independent adjective meant to refer to behavior like kicking him out the door and down the hall. After all, simply using Dark Magic isn't enough to qualify one as an 'evil' wizard, and certainly not as a Death Eater. Elisabeth wrote: My friend offered up an interesting suggestion: what if becoming a Death Eater is invitation only? Perhaps Narcissa didn't receive an invite? What do y'all think? I reply: I think that your friend is right. I don't see how you could just sign-up or purchase a membership or anything. There's no canon for how you become a Death-Eater. But it seems that there is probably a big difference between being a 'supporter' and being a 'Death Eater.' For instance, we know that "Every Death Eater had this sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distinguishing one another..." (GoF, Ch.36, 711, US) I can't see this as being the same as being one of Voldemort's 'supporters.' I bet that the giants and the dementors don't have the Dark Mark burned into their left forearms. I have to use an assumption here. Based on the way that Voldemort called the people in the circle to him in GoF, Ch.33, I'm assuming that everyone in the circle has the Dark Mark. So, based on these people and Voldemort's own discussion of his methods, we can tell that he has used four major ways of acquiring support for himself: 1) True loyalty, exemplified by Barty Crouch Jr. and the dark haired lady from the Pensieve. 2) Imperius Curse, of which we've seen only Barty Crouch Sr. in GoF. We find out that Voldemort himself used this curse on Crouch in GoF, Ch.35: "My father was placed under the Imperius Curse by my master." We're also *told* that the Malfoys claimed to have been bewitched. In PS/SS Ch.6, Ron says "They were some of the first to come back to our side after You-Know-Who disappeared. Said they'd been bewitched." As far as we know, Crouch Sr. doesn't have the Dark Mark. Malfoy apparently does. So, I'm not sure that I'm convinced that people who're simply under Voldemort's control would have the Dark Mark. They could, to be fair, but it seems unlikely to me. 3) Threats/Pain/Fear, as with Pettigrew: "I never meant it to happen... He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named forced me -" (PoA, Ch.19) and, apparently, as with the use of the Cruciatus Curse on Avery GoF, Ch.33. Both of these guys seem to be cooperating out of fear, and I'm guessing that they both have the Dark Mark. 4) Promises, as with, interestingly enough, Pettigrew and the silver hand: "Lord Voldemort rewards his helpers" from GoF, Ch.33, and also with Macnair: "Lord Voldemort will provide" also in GoF, Ch.33. Again, both would appear to have the Dark Mark. I think it's safe to say that, through one or combinations of more of these methods, this is how that group of people in the circle, the Death Eaters, got to be there. Which of Voldemort's methods of acquiring support applies to Lucius? To Narcissa? It's also clear to me that Voldemort, outside the circle of Death Eaters, has a large group of 'supporters,' as well. The Giants and Dementors, for instance, I think of as 'supporters,' although Dumbledore suggests that their support was bought: On the dementors: "They will not remain loyal to you, Fudge. Voldemort can offer them much more scope for their powers and pleasures than you can!" (GoF, Ch.36, 707, US edition) On the giants: " Voldemort will persuade them, as he did before, that he alone among wizards will give them their rights and their freedom!" (GoF, Ch.36, 708, US edition) Yet, after the Quidditch World Cup, in GoF, Ch.9, we see a strange progression of events when the Robertses are being tortured: First: "A crowd of wizards, tightly packed and moving together with wands pointing straight upward, was marching slowly across the field. Then [Harry] realized that their heads were hooded and their faces masked." (GoF, Ch.9, 119, US) I think of this group as Death Eaters. Then: "More wizards were joining the marching group, laughing and pointing up at the floating bodies. Tents crumpled and fell as the marching crowd swelled." (GoF, Ch.9, 119-20, US) I don't think that the people joining the original group are Death Eaters - because they are not hooded and masked, and because they're not actually participating in the torture of the Roberts family, because they're really more enjoying the show, I think of them as just 'supporters.' And then: "The crowd beneath the Roberts family was larger than ever; they could see the Ministry wizards trying to get through it to the hooded wizards in the center, but they were having great difficulty." (GoF, Ch.9, 120-21, US) By the final quote, I'd say that what we see is a huge crowd of people, with the Death Eaters at the center, and their many 'supporters' surrounding them. I assume that Lucius, if he's there, would be in the center. Is that where Narcissa would be? Might she be in the outer group? Is she there at all? Remember, Draco doesn't confirm it. What's more alarming is that the crowd sounds so big... big enough for the outer crowd of people to effectively insulate the tight group that is masked. Does this mean that Voldemort has far more support than we think he does? Based on what was going on, you'd think that everyone would understand that the hooded and masked wizards were Death Eaters. Looks like a great many people, or at least, a great many more than I originally thought buy into muggle torture. So, as far as whether membership to the Death Eater circle proper, as in, the people who have the Dark Mark on their arms, is 'invitation only' goes, I'd say yes, definitely. I've even heard conjecture that the Dark Mark is something that has to be 'earned,' which isn't canon, but is deliciously evil and an idea replete with possibilities. But I don't think that 'invitation only' applies if we're talking about who simply supports Voldemort. Supporters, the way I look at it, wouldn't necessarily be privy to all of the inner-workings and agenda of the Death Eater circle. They're not the planners, or even the soldiers, but the crowd that won't actively try to stop what's going on, the crowd that'll just let it happen, even encourage it and the crowd that would be willing to help you out, if you needed it. I think that we can expect the supporters, at some point, to do more than sit around and watch - they'll participate too, by the end. -Tom From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 4 00:17:45 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 17:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Riddle Wanted In-Reply-To: <143.10465394.2be5ac0f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030504001745.64764.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56883 --- jodel wrote: > Do you honestly think that you can let off > three AKs in a Muggle villiage and > the MoM won't get involved? Lynn: There is no canon to support that Voldemort was sought by the Ministry in connection with the killing of the Riddles nor that the MoM even cared. In fact, there is canon to suggest that the MoM would not have cared or pursued the killings. "'and there was a third disappearance, one which the Ministry, I regret to say, does not consider of any importance, for it concerns a Muggle. His name was Frank Bryce, he lived in the village where Voldemort's father grew up, and he has not been seen since last August. You see, I read the Muggle newspapers, unlike most of my Ministry friends.'" (GoF, p. 522, UK) So, I also doubt that Riddle was being sought by the Ministry just because of the murders of some Muggles. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun May 4 00:51:58 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 00:51:58 -0000 Subject: T Riddle Wanted for Murder? (was:Re: Digest Number 2752) In-Reply-To: <143.10465394.2be5ac0f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > Cheryl the Lynx states; > > >Actually I think "Tom Riddle" wasn't wanted. There seems to be no > >indication > >that anyone in the village believed Frank Brice when he said he'd > >seen a > >strange boy, [...snip...] > > *sigh* > Well of course he wasn't wanted for questioning by the *Muggle* authorities. > > Do you honestly think that you can let off three AKs in a Muggle villiage and > the MoM won't get involved? Tom Riddle didn't disapear for their sake. He was > hiding from the *wizarding* authorities. > > -JOdel > Annemehr: Well, I *don't* think Riddle felt any need to hide from the MoM! >From GoF, ch. 30 (The Pensieve): "The years of Voldemort's ascent to power," [Dumbledore] said, "were marked with disappearances. Bertha Jorkins has vanished without a trace in the place where Voldemort was certainly known to be last. Mr. Crouch too has disappeared...within these very grounds. And there was a third disappearance, one which the Ministry, I regret to say, do not consider of any importance, for it concerns a Muggle. His name was Frank Bryce, he lived in the village where Voldemort's father grew up, and he has not been seen since last August. You see, I read the Muggle newspapers, unlike most of my Ministry friends." So the MoM does not bother about Muggle deaths at all, even though, in Frank Bryce's case, Dumbledore has brought it to their attention, it happened in the *same village* as Tom Riddle's father and grandparents' deaths, and the MoM has previous experience with Voldemort to help them see its importance. Even Dumbledore says that FB lived in the same village where Voldemort's father *grew up,* not *was murdered,* so does anyone, at this point, actually know the Riddles were AKed? The MoM does not, as far as I can see, have an "AK detector" either, or someone would have apparated to the graveyard later on. No, Tom Riddle disappeared to lay plans and search for immortality. I can well believe that that took 25 years (the immortality part, especially). Annemehr From patricia at obscure.org Sun May 4 01:12:51 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 21:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56885 On Sat, 3 May 2003, Rosebeth C. wrote (about Snape dueling with Lockhart): > So why would Snape agree? I'm not sure. Maybe he saw it as something > useful for the Slytherin's to know. Maybe DD asked him. Maybe he justed > like the idea of dueling Lockhart. Personally, I think Snape relished the idea of showing up Lockhart in front of most of the student body. We know he loves humiliating his least favorite students in front of others, and I suspect that attitude extends to anyone Snape views as a lesser wizard than him. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun May 4 01:13:14 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 21:13:14 EDT Subject: Memory Charms Message-ID: <1c1.90c93fa.2be5c32a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56886 It's been established that Memory Charms can severely hurt a person's memory (the most obvious example being Bertha Jorkins). What about the Roberts family? Mr. Roberts was having multiple memory charms put on him - the man who Apparated there while Harry et al were there even said that Mr. Roberts was needing alot of memory charms. He and his family also needed to forget the whole levitating incident. Will this leave any damage to the family? Mr. Roberts himself? And on another memory charm note, I was thinking about the thread about how shocking it is Harry isn't a serial killer. What if sometime at Mrs. Figg's he met people from the Wizarding World and it was just memory charmed away. If this is true, which it most likely isn't, would it leave any lasting effect on Harry? I know we talked about this in the recent past, I just can't remember what was said.... ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ Who saw X-Men today....while wearing a Harry Potter t-shirt. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Sun May 4 01:36:00 2003 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 01:36:00 -0000 Subject: Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratin... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56887 >> PoA, chapter 9: 'Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf and the true wolf?' said Snape. Everyone sat in motionless silence; everyone except Hermione, whose hand, as it so often did, had shot straight into the air. 'Anyone?' Snape said, ignoring Hermione.<< Snape is definitely a curmudgeon (putting it nicely) when it comes to calling upon Hermione. It's another, boderline abusive, way for him engage in little power games to fluster both her and her House mates (and placate his underlying need to feel respected and in control...regarding which I sense his classroom is the *one* place he feels that he truly has that). 'Course, there's more than just grounds to suspect that Snape is a bit intimidated by, and therefore resents, Hermione's knowledge...and one way for a Slytherin to keep from being shown-up by a muggle-born is to keep her silent. However, Snape is not a black and white character and I think it's equally clear that he also has legitimate reasoning behind his methods. A teacher's job is to promote and ascertain understanding, critical thinking, etc. to *all* of his or her students. In that respect, calling upon Hermione is actually a waste of time (Is there a single doubt in anyone's mind, including Snape's, that when Hermione raises her hand, chances are she can give you a near encyclopedia's worth of information on the topic off the top of her head?). So for Hermione to spout-out the answer by rote to the rest of the class would be no different than Snape just giving it to them himself. That's not what he wants to achieve...because it doesn't help them. Snape wants the others to observe, think, research, and work-out the answers for themselves...and he's more than willing to use threats to get them to do so (e.g. he got them to take their antidote research seriously by hinting that he might be poisoning one of them). I find it intriguing that despite Snape's surly disposition and often cruel nature...he tends to pass on some of the most truly useful information...information they'll need to protect themselves from evil intent. Harry learned "expelliarmus" from watching Snape...and it saved his life twice. Hermione found-out where to find the polyjuice potion from Snape. And sooner or later, someone's going to need to use a bezoar or other antitdote to save their lives. Snape also gave a lecture on undetectable poisons. I'm sure others here can come up with more such examples...but I think it's clear that there's a very real reason why he's teaching this stuff. And in the case of werewolves, he has very good reason to want the students to be able to recognize one...because one is among them. Snape truly considers Lupin to be a serious threat (make that a Sirius threat)...a viewpoint of which he is more than justified, considering Lupin's gross negligence in forgetting to take his potion (He's had this condidtion for HOW many years, and he forgot?!!!). Had not Sirius been there in his animagus form to fend-off Lupin when he transformed into a werewolf, it could have been disastrous for one of the trio. BM From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Sun May 4 00:41:10 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 00:41:10 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56888 On page 31 of SS it mentions Dudley knocking down "old Mrs. Figg, as she crossed private drive on her crutches." I know it's been established that she is a wizard, so I'm curious as to why she was on crutches in the first place. We've seen that in the wizarding world, broken bones can be faced with a single spell (One wonders when if at all Hogwarts students learn this, because as I've seen there are no healing magic classes). Why was Mrs. Figg's leg not healed then? If she is, as has been suggested, Harry's Secret Keeper while he's at the Dursley's, she could just have been keeping to her cover story when she went to check up on him, but did she really allow her leg to heal in the muggle manner to keep up a cover story? As a Secret Keeper, I would think one would do well to live by Moody's philosphy of "Contant vigilance!"...which is hard to do on a broken leg. She could have been faking the broken leg, but I don't think that she's muggle born (due to the similarities between her house and that tent on page 80 of GOF). So how is she to know how long it would take a broken leg to heal using muggle methods? - Joe From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 4 02:22:55 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 02:22:55 -0000 Subject: Snape as a substitute teacher and Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56889 I've been away for five days and I made it through about 150 of the 300 or so posts. But, I wanted to break down further Snape's day substituting for Lupin in PoA. Snape commits several teaching sins here. 1) He gets his facts wrong. According to Fantastic Beasts, the Kappa is found in Japan. He tells a student. "that is incorrect, the Kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia." (pg 129, UK) So, the student had it right and Snape had it wrong. Wonder if any apology is forthcoming? Forgive me while I break a filling from laughing at the thought. 2) He walks into the room expecting the students to be stupid. He goes in there, expecting all of them to be behind first-year lessons ("I would expect first-years to be able to deal with Red Caps and Grindylows") and then makes dark threats about going to Dumbledore, telling them how behind they are. "Are you telling me that Professor Lupin hasn't even taught you the basic distinction between --" Whoops. Our girl Hermione, who Snape must just HATE for figuring out his logic puzzle in a minute, does know the questions Snape is posing as a threat. Damn, this girl might even grasp that he doesn't know for sure where Kappas come from! Better slap her down. (Oh, and by the way, she says, "please" and "sir" during the entire two-page passage) "Five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable know-it- all." Even if I were to grant the bridge between this loathsome statement and trying to teach her a valuable lesson about not speaking out of turn (a bridge I would not dare walk on myself, unless I wanted to go swimming,) the "insufferable know-it-all" bit seals it. Snape doesn't seem to give one red damn about helping Hermione. And I refuse to believe that any teaching technique that includes hateful insults is effective in the long run. 3) Continually insults, in front of students, a fellow teacher. I know there are teachers on this board -- including my friend JennyRavenclaw -- and I wonder how much they would put up with a substitute teacher insulting his or her organization, grading scale, and choice of lesson plans? My guess is not for long. 4) Uses valuable teaching time for his own agenda. I want to be very careful here, but hear me out. I have read on this board, at times, that Lupin's werewolf status is a parallel to AIDS. Let me follow that through. Imagine a teacher with an axe to grind against a fellow teacher with AIDS assigns an essay on the virus, symptoms, etc., with the intent of getting the students to figure out that the teacher has AIDS and ultimately, to start a panic that gets the teacher dismissed. Absolutely repulsive. Also, not on PoA, but I wanted to respond, as a journalist who covers 12 public school boards, to the scenario in GoF, where Harry and Ron call Snape names after the hallway incident. I believe, without quoting, that it was along the lines of "in my school, had a student insulted a teacher like that, he or she would have been suspended." But let us remember the actual incident, shall we? And let's put it in real school terms. A student who is a bystander to a fight gets injured, through no fault of her own. The teacher responding to the scene not only refuses to have her escorted to the school nurse, but insults her appearance in front of her peers. Let us remember what Harry and Ron were reacting to, hm? Perhaps they were reacting as 14-year-old boys will, with their mouths instead of their brains. But what's Snape's excuse? Darrin -- Good to be back. Got at least three FILK ideas from the radio. From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 4 03:49:28 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 03:49:28 -0000 Subject: Snape/Lucius/Narcissa/TMR in hiding/Godric's Hollow/Lily, wy HP not curious Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56890 Ladi Lyndi wrote: << such as when Harry believes in PoA that Snape would have intentionally failed him without Dumbledore. >> Add me to the people who have already pointed out that just because Harry believes that doesn't prove it's true. I don't think Snape is unfair on marks (grades) for the year. Tammy Rizzo wrote: << Snape is not sexy. He is seductive. >> I found Snape sexy before the first movie was ever cast. Contemplation of Snape leads to physical sensations about certain parts of one's body getting a little extra blood and therefore feeling tingly and a bit swollen, certain parts getting moist while mouth gets dry and lungs need extra oxygen: sexy, not merely seductive (maybe not seductive at all). I dunno why people think it casts doubt on his sex appeal to quote 'sallow skin, hooked nose, greasy long black hair, really bad attitude', as that is the description of quite a few boys and men with whom I've fallen in lust over the years. I don't disagree with those who have mentioned power, controlled (barely controlled) power, silken voice, poetic words, intelligence, wit, sarcasm, danger, the cliched female romantic urge to reform a bad man and make a damaged man happy with the purity of her love... Stickbook wrote: << Where do we rate Lucius in terms of sexiness? >> I thought it was widely agreed, long before even the first movie was cast, that Lucius is VERY sexy -- I was very much afraid that the movie people people would screw up the casting, and much relieved by Jason Isaacs's performance. Lucius is handsome, elegant, rich, powerful, intelligent (as judged from his conspiracies), extremely self-controlled ... he gives the impression of being skilled at whatever he does ... "moving with style and ease" .... I worry about a listie who said that she likes that he has no scruples and no morals to stop him from doing whatever it takes to get his goal, because his goal is to protect and get the best for his family and she plans, as his mistress, to be one of the family members he's taking care of. I'm sure she's right about how he treats his family, but I don't think his mistresses are in that charmed circle: I think he's a cruel sick-o who gets off on vivisecting his girlfriends. Susan XG wrote: << 3) What is the nature of Snape and Lucius' relationship? Are they just simply co-Death Eaters or does it go deeper than that? Are they related? Cousins maybe? Does Snape stay close to the Malfoys because he wants to protect Draco from Voldemort? To spy on the Malfoys because Lucius is one of Voldy's high ranking DEs? >> Anja added: << We know almost nothing about the relationship between Lucius and Severus since we have never seen them talking to each other. The only thing we have is the sudden movement Snape makes after Harry mentions Malfoy's name . It seems very unlikely that they had been friends at school since Sirius would have probably mentioned Lucius among Severus's friends. Don't ask me why, but I somehow have the feeling that Lucius is older than Severus (although it looks a bit different in the movies). Maybe they met through their families , maybe at the DEs , we don't know that for sure. If the Snapes are (like the Malfoys) one of the rich , pureblooded Wizard families it is very likely that they met each other on some occasions. A friendship might have developed and in the end, Lucius managed to persuade Severus to become a follower of Voldemort as well. This is my take on this but I have to admit that it is not very convincing. I am sure JKR has a better idea on this ;-) >> I agree with much that Anja said. I am convinced that Lucius is seven to ten years ago than Severus (and MWPP and Lily, all the same age) and therefore they didn't know each other in school. I believe they met after Severus had left school, when he was only 19 or 20 and just getting started in the adult world, and he developed a kind of big admiration for Lucius, because of all those Lucius characteristics that I mentioned in the 'sexy Lucius' comment above, all of which except intelligence are characteristics that young Severus lacked and very much felt the lack of. I don't think Lucius developed any particular liking for Severus, but pretended to be friends on purpose to recruit Severus to serve Lord Voldemort (because Lucius recognized that Severus was a VERY talented potion maker who could be useful). I believe, until that famous 'sudden movement', Severus still felt liking, friendship, and admiration for Lucius, and therefore deluded himself into believing Lucius's Imperius Curse excuse. The 'sudden movement' was the result of Severus suddenly realizing that he had been fooled by Lucius, that Lucius really had been and still was loyal to the Dark Side. I believe that Severus's fondness for Draco is perfectly sincere (he's not faking it to make a good impression on Lucius, he's not faking it on purpose to make Draco a weak spoiled brat who will fail in life) and it results from Draco's resemblance to Lucius ... they look so much alike that Severus attributes all the same virtues (intelligence, self-control, power) to Draco that Lucius has. Severus 'liking' Lucius, etc, doesn't HAVE to be at all erotic, but in my fanfic it is. Elizabeth, a rude mechanical, wrote: << It seems very clear that Narcissa Malfoy is not a Death Eater. But there ARE some married couples that are both members of Voldie's circle. Why Lucius, but not Narcissa? I think that one sign of Voldemort's evilness is his disrespect for women (so, I think skilled and powerful witches will be his downfall, because their gender makes him think them incompetent and harmless, so he is off his guard) and one result of his prejudice is that he doesn't want to have ANY females in his Death Eater inner circle. According to me, Mrs Lestrange is the only female Death Eater and he only accepted her because she is SO FANATICALLY DEVOTED to him. << Is it possible that she doesn't approve? >> I personally believe that Narcissa is completely on the same team as Lucius, meaning they have the same goals and values, as well as they like each other. To me, she completely approves of Dark Arts, bribery, murder, and any other methods of increasing her [marital] family's wealth and power. I expect she also despises Muggles and wants to exclude Muggle-borns from the wizarding community. << Elisabeth, (who believes it possible that Narcissa is an Evans, and didn't receive her invite because she is a "mudblood"...) >> I can't imagine that Lucius Malfoy would EVER marry a "Mudblood". I CAN imagine that Narcissa and Petunia are sisters, but I have it that Petunia was the older sister, cast out by her snobbish Pureblood family for being a Squib, and adopted by the Evanses, a Muggle family who somehow were in contact with the wizarding world. I'm thinking she was about two years old at the time (how could they be sure so young that she was a Squib?), old enough to know that she was losing her familiar home and being rejected by mummy and daddy. Old enough to know that 'magic' had somehow caused this. That would explain both her hatred of magic and her deep sense of insecurity. Deep insecurity is why her sibling rivalry of Lily went SO over-the-top (and being able to tell herself "of course they like Lily better, she's their REAL child" didn't help) and deep insecurity is also why she tries so hard to be better (including more normal) than the neighbors. JOdel wrote: << Who CARES what the villagers think? Tom Riddle didn't disapear for their sake. He was hiding from the *wizarding* authorities. >> I can't disagree with Annemehr's evidence that the Ministry didn't have AK detectors and doesn't care if Muggles are murdered, but still I personally believe that the Ministry did make inquiries into this dramatic multiple death (which might have called Muggle attention to the wizarding world) and did seek to interview TMR about it. I believe that the 'investigation' was very shallow and it cleared TMR very quickly, when he was given an alibi by the highly respected and powerful family of one of the 'useful friends' he met in Slytherin House ... maybe Lucius Malfoy's father ... I agree with Annemehr that TMR spent those missing years working on his immortality. I believe he didn't start to recruit followers and try to seize control of the wizarding world until he had succeeded in becoming immortal. Judy Penumbra wrote: << Has anyone made a suggestion as to the exact location of Godric's Hollow? If you look at a map of England, Bristol (which Hagrid mentions flying over) and Surrey are in a straight line going slightly northwest to slightly southeast of London. Problem is that Bristol is bang on the western shore of England. If Hagrid flew the most direct route, it would make absolutely no sense to overfly Bristol unless he were coming from Wales, or Ireland, or much more interestingly, the legendary isle of Avalon, (if JKR nudged it's imaginary location a bit more south of the Isle of Man.) If Godric's Hollow was indeed located on Avalon, then there are quite a few intriguing conjectures that could come of it. [Please note there are other speculative locations of Avalon, but many sources do place it somewhere out in St. George's Channel] Flying to Surrey from anywhere else in England or Scotland one would miss Bristol entirely, unless, of course, there was a reason for stopping there... >> There is a theory that Godric's Hollow is in Wales because someone looked up St. Godric and discovered that he earned his sainthood by being a hermit in WALES. Penny Linsenmeyer (our listmom) posted http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotteranonymous/message/1182 on Fri Mar 24, 2000 saying: << The only thing I found so far that looks close is "Godre'r-graig." This appears to be a fairly remote village in southern Wales, nearest to Swansea. >> However, there is a 'missing 24 hours' (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/timeline_potters2.html#Hagrid ) between the time the house in Godric's Hollow was destroyed and the time that Hagrid delivered baby Harry to Privet Drive. With 24 hours for travel, he could have taken the baby from Godric's Hollow to Hogwarts, from Hogwarts to Devon, from Devon to Ireland, and finally from Ireland to Privet Drive. Altho' your Avalon suggestion is fascinating. Pat Gruenke wrote: << Why is Harry more obsessed with his father than his mother? >> I say it's a side-effect of Lily having put an AI (artifical intelligence) image of herself into his mind, to be his loving parent even while abused by Dursleys, as told in my recent post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/56252 << In addition, so far we've always seen Harry wondering and trying to find out about his father, and not about his mother. Some say that's a plot device because JKR is saving some big surprise about Lily, and some say it's normal because Harry is 11 to 14 so far, puberty and adolescence, and much more concerned about a male image to identify with. But *I* say that he doesn't search so much for Lily because, unknown to himself, he already has her with him. >> From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Sun May 4 04:21:50 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 04:21:50 -0000 Subject: Question about Narcissa and the DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > So, based on these people and Voldemort's own discussion of his > methods, we can tell that he has used four major ways of acquiring > support for himself: > > 1) True loyalty, exemplified by Barty Crouch Jr. and the dark haired > lady from the Pensieve. > > 2) Imperius Curse, of which we've seen only Barty Crouch Sr. in GoF. > We find out that Voldemort himself used this curse on Crouch in GoF, > Ch.35: "My father was placed under the Imperius Curse by my master." > We're also *told* that the Malfoys claimed to have been bewitched. > In PS/SS Ch.6, Ron says "They were some of the first to come back to > our side after You-Know-Who disappeared. Said they'd been > bewitched." As far as we know, Crouch Sr. doesn't have the Dark > Mark. Malfoy apparently does. So, I'm not sure that I'm convinced > that people who're simply under Voldemort's control would have the > Dark Mark. They could, to be fair, but it seems unlikely to me. > > 3) Threats/Pain/Fear, as with Pettigrew: "I never meant it to > happen... He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named forced me -" (PoA, Ch.19) and, > apparently, as with the use of the Cruciatus Curse on Avery GoF, > Ch.33. Both of these guys seem to be cooperating out of fear, and > I'm guessing that they both have the Dark Mark. > > 4) Promises, as with, interestingly enough, Pettigrew and the silver > hand: "Lord Voldemort rewards his helpers" from GoF, Ch.33, and also > with Macnair: "Lord Voldemort will provide" also in GoF, Ch.33. > Again, both would appear to have the Dark Mark. > > I think it's safe to say that, through one or combinations of more > of these methods, this is how that group of people in the circle, > the Death Eaters, got to be there. > > Which of Voldemort's methods of acquiring support applies to Lucius? > To Narcissa? > Thank you for your reply, it was very interesting!! And it gave me a new thought (frightening, isn't it!?) A while back there was a thread about Snape's reaction to Harry's mention of Lucius at the DE reunion (at the end of GoF). I wondered then if Snape was surprised that Lucius had returned to Voldie because perhaps he believed that Lucius had repented of his ways so to speak...My new thought is this: perhaps he truly did believe that Lucius was under the imperious curse those many years ago, and part of the reason he worked to bring Voldie down was to help friends that he believed were under a spell--only to find out differently when Harry gives the news? No, Lucius isn't a great guy. Yes, the Malfoys have an interest in the Dark Arts. However, as you said, that doesn't necessarily make someone a DE. Maybe he genuinely likes Lucius and had hoped that he told the truth about acting under the Imperious curse--sometimes being close to someone can cause us to be blind about them. That would also explain another of my problems: why would the Malfoys allow their son to be taught by a man who betrayed Voldie to Dumbledore? One would think Lucius would try to exact some sort of revenge. If he is sticking to his story and all, then he would have to pretend to like Severus. Hmmm...I spend way too much time thinking about this stuff! At least I'm among friends! =) Elisabeth From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 4 04:46:13 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 23:46:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] /TMR in hiding/ References: Message-ID: <000601c311f8$19a919a0$8accaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56892 > JOdel wrote: > > << Who CARES what the villagers think? Tom Riddle didn't disapear for > their sake. He was hiding from the *wizarding* authorities. >> > Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) continues: > I can't disagree with Annemehr's evidence that the Ministry didn't > have AK detectors and doesn't care if Muggles are murdered, but still > I personally believe that the Ministry did make inquiries into this > dramatic multiple death (which might have called Muggle attention > to the wizarding world) and did seek to interview TMR about it. I > believe that the 'investigation' was very shallow and it cleared TMR > very quickly, when he was given an alibi by the highly respected and > powerful family of one of the 'useful friends' he met in Slytherin > House ... maybe Lucius Malfoy's father ... I actually have the feeling the WW in general didn't even notice the Riddles had been killed. It has been said at least once that many wizards consider what happens in the Muggle world to be of little import to them. I think it was in PS/SS that Dumbledore reveals he has subscriptions to Muggle newspapers as well as wizarding ones, and I also believe it was mentioned that keeping up with Muggle news is a rare thing for a wizard. A few like Dumbledore and those who get paid to (like certain people at the MoM) do, but I don't think many people even noticed they died, and those who did would not even think of young Tom, a school prefect and winner of a Special Award for finding the Monster that was killing students at Hogwarts. Frank Bryce's story of a dark-haired young man being spotted near the house was not believed by most of the townspeople. I wonder if the newspapers would have even bothered to print it, or if they would have devoted their time to vilifying Bryce and insinuating that he had to be guilty. Although it's interesting that the Underage Sorcery department (too tired to look up actual name) at least wouldn't have detected Tom using magic outside of Hogwarts... Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 4 04:53:57 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 23:53:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratin... References: Message-ID: <000c01c311f9$2c87ebe0$8accaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56893 From: "backstagemystic" > And in the case of werewolves, he has very good reason to want the > students to be able to recognize one...because one is among them. > > Snape truly considers Lupin to be a serious threat (make that a > Sirius threat)...a viewpoint of which he is more than justified, > considering Lupin's gross negligence in forgetting to take his potion > (He's had this condidtion for HOW many years, and he forgot?!!!). > > Had not Sirius been there in his animagus form to fend-off Lupin when > he transformed into a werewolf, it could have been disastrous for one > of the trio. Just would like to point out that the potion is a relatively new discovery, and I get the impression that Lupin wasn't able to brew it that well himself. He might not have been taking anything for his condition until arriving at Hogwarts where there was someone skilled enough to make it. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 4 05:20:46 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 00:20:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville/Memory Charms References: <1c1.90c93fa.2be5c32a@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c311fc$eb9dbd40$8accaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56894 I was thinking about this on my way home tonight. Things from this list were jumbling around in my brain (Neville, what happened to his parents, the potential use of a Memory Charm on him, Bertha Jorkins), and these are some thought I came to. First, I was thinking about how some people were wondering just how old Neville was when the Longbottoms were tortured. I had always assumed he was an infant like Harry, which made me wonder why people thought he wouldn't have been killed, let alone remembered anything. Then I got to thinking that his parents were found alive and their tormentors were captured, so the DE's didn't get to finish their dirty deeds. Which left me with Neville's age at the time. Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here. I'm too lazy to go doublecheck GoF to verify my facts. Just trying to get this written up so I can get to bed. During one of the trials in the Pensieve (Karkaroff's?), we see Crouch Sr. If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in one of these trials we overhear him telling someone that his son had just received 12 O.W.L.'s. This would place Crouch Jr. as just having finished his fifth year, around 16 years old. If these particular trials were held not long after Voldemort's disappearance, then we can put Neville between 1-2 years old. Later, we see Crouch Jr.'s trial for the torture of the Longbottoms. Harry places his age at around 19. So this trial would then have had to be 3-5 years after the first batch, giving a little bit of leeway for age miscalculations on both ends. If this is the case, Neville was anywhere between 4-7 years old. Let's say 5 just for the fun of it. This would be long enough after all the post-war trials that the WW would have been feeling safe. This would also make Neville old enough to be able to remember what transpired if he was actually at home at the time, and not with his Gran. (Side note there: I sometimes wonder if Neville was even at home, because I could see the DE's easily killing him or torturing him just to get at his parents and maybe to make them talk if they were there to gather information. Therefore, either they had a really good hiding spot for him in the house, or he was not home at the time.) This brings me to the Memory Charm bit. We have been operating under the belief that strong Memory Charms in and of themselves have the potential to damage one's brain. I've also wondered for a bit what would happen if a person truly didn't *want* to forget something that another was trying to make them forget. Take Bertha Jorkins. She has a reputation for being nosy and a gossip. She goes over to Crouch's on business. She sees sitting in his kitchen his son, a man presumed dead and known to be a vile DE, capable of torture and most likely murder and whose last known living location was Azkaban. What is she going to want to do? Tell someone. For many different reasons. Crouch is said to have used a strong Memory Charm on her. I wonder if it had to be so strong because she didn't want to forget and fought it. I also wonder if the reason her brain seemed to be damaged from it is because she fought so hard against it. Maybe this is what happened with Neville, if you ascribe to the Memory Charm theory. Here's a scenario. He's home at that time and hears (and perhaps sees) everything. The MoM shows up, investigates the scene, and decides that it'd be kinder to the little boy if he didn't have to live with the memories of being a witness to what happened to his parents. They also know that this is going to be a potent memory in the boy that would leave an imprint on many different levels, therefore they know it's going to have to be strong (otherwise he could have vividly horrible nightmares and then not even know why he was having them). For some reason, Neville decides to fight against the Memory Charm. Maybe he's afraid they'll make him forget his parents entirely, and that's something he wouldn't want to do. Again, that could hurt him. While I'm on Neville, I did have one other thought that would go on the other side, that he didn't have a Memory Charm used on him. I mean, there are enough psychological reasons to explain why he is the way he is. Perhaps he knew his father (and maybe mother) was a powerful wizard, and after what happened to them, he believed that what happened to them was because they knew his father was powerful, and now he's unconsciously blocking himself from showing any hint of power because he's afraid that he'll suffer the same fate. Anyway, I think I'm done rambling for the night. I should get myself to bed. As I'm still somewhat new here, forgive me if this stuff has been hashed to death. I haven't had a chance to read everything in the Best Threads web page yet. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 4 06:20:04 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 06:20:04 -0000 Subject: Lestranges in Azkaban /Muggle Science /Wizard Slackers /Poor KnowItAll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56895 LESTRANGES IN AZKABAN FlamingStar Cathy wrote: << I think it relates to what Sirius said - that he stayed sane because he knew he was innocent. Since that wasn't a happy thought, they couldn't take it away from him. If the LeStranges aren't insane, I think it is because of something similar - except that their thoughts are probably pure evil, rather than thoughts of innocence. They've probably been planning all the things they want to do to wreck havoc when they get out. >> I think that if the Lestranges were thinking of "all the things they want to do to wreck havoc when they get out", that would be happy thoughts for them, and thus the Dementors would be able to take those thoughts away. I think that the unhappy but true thought that the Lestranges kept may have been that they had FAILED to bring the Dark Lord back, the Dark Lord was still missing and might NEVER come back. Perhaps Mr Lestrange also thought of how his love for his wife had led him into this mess. WIZARDS LEARNING MUGGLE SCIENCE Emily F wrote: << I can't think of anything horrible that would come from the students learning more about the natural world. >> Lexicon Steve post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/13019 suggested: << Wizard Folk can't begin to understand how Muggle society operates without magic. They could probably be trained to think like a Muggle, but then might they not find themselves doubting that magic can work, since it isn't scientific or logical, and as a result might magic STOP working for them? And, then, would that explain why all of us REAL Muggles can't a simply "Lumos" spell, no matter how hard we try? We just don't believe. So Muggle-born kids with magical power might never develop much of that power at all as they grow up; they would even lose it our Muggle schools educate the magic out of them. And might that be why advanced education of the kind we think is so important might actually be HARMFUL to a Wizard child? It would disrupt the philosophical underopinnings of Wizard society and turn them into (shudder) Muggles? I think that would suggest a more urgent reason for separation of the two societies and possibly explain some of the prejudice some in the Wizarding community feel toward Muggles. Muggles are a real threat to Wizard culture, and not because they might burn someone at the stake or force them NOT to read fantasy books in school... >> While looking for my old posts on the topic below, I just found this Fantastic Post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/33676 by Jenett! It deals with BOTH the economics topic below and the 'studying science' issue above. Of the latter, she wrote: << My theory is that it's a paradigm difference. Perhaps, in order to have magic work for you, you need to have a certain attitude about how the world works. There's an aspect of native, inborn talent, but you also need to look at the world a certain way. What if part of that worldview needed to include the fact that while you might not mind technology, you didn't really care about it either? In other words, that if you had adequate light, you didn't really care whether it came from electric lightbulbs or magical light or lanterns, or whatever? Maybe you need to be the sort of person who is at least *just* as easily entertained by books or Quidditch matches as by watching television? >> WIZARDING ECONOMICS "ingachristsuperstar" wrote: << This makes me think of the slackers of the wizarding world, who learn the charm to conjure sandwiches so they never have to work ever again. OK, so maybe you can't conjure more complicated things, but I imagine if one's standards were low enough one could get by being a very very lazy witch/wizard. Makes one wonder how they get all the menial, low-paying jobs filled. >> Maybe they don't have many menial, low-paying jobs to fill, as maybe they get most of that kind of work done by magic. Maybe the menial, low-paying jobs are filled by young wizards and witches who just want some money to buy a flying motorcycle or the latest fashion in robes. I have a lot of related speculation in my post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44028 which was titled: "re: Wizards' wealth, work, taxes, tuition, education, Squibs, HUFFLEPUFF" In my post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/15062 I said: << My current theory is there are no poor wizarding countries and no destitute people in wizarding society (except maybe werewolves and half-giants?) -- I now believe that in wizarding Britain, the MoM pays a stipend to every adult witch and wizard (not to children, or the Weasleys wouldn't have money troubles -- the children get free tuition to Hogwarts instead); some of them also have inherited wealth and some of them also have jobs. The salaries would be for people who want more in their life-style than the three square meals a day and roof over their heads provided by the stipend. In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12931 I said: << All I can figure is that the publications and Quidditch teams and industries are really just 'paying hobbies' (in the case of sports teams, that's called 'semi-pro'). [snip] So if wizarding jobs are just labors of love, the things that Muggles do when we can take the time away from our day jobs, what do the wizarding folk do for a living? If they could conjure up all their housing and food and clothing and furniture (they *can* conjure up their transportation: Apparation), they wouldn't need money to live on, but the Weasleys wouldn't be so poor, right? So my guess is that every wizarding adult gets a stipend from the MoM (free tuition at Hogwarts for the kids, but not a stipend, or having so many children wouldn't make the Weasleys poor). >> "Imamommy" : << Does anyone else think of this stuff? >> Yes. POOR KNOW-IT-ALLS The scene being discussed begins: 'Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf and the true wolf?' saidSnape. Everyone sat in motionless silence; everyone except Hermione, whose hand, as it so often did, had shot straight into the air. 'Anyone?' Snape said, ignoring Hermione. Mel Claros sided with Snape: << But I honestly wish I had a dollar for every time I have had to say to the same student something along the lines of "Yes, I'm sure you have the answer, but why don't we give someone else a chance this time?" >> << who'd rather give the kid with the wrong answer a chance.>> If anyone else had WANTED a chance, they could have raised their hand when Snape asked the question. I'm sure they were all hoping that Snape WOULDN'T call on them. Great Merlin, that "give a chance" phraseology still enrages me. Doing something to a kid (calling on him) that the kid doesn't want, MAY be the way to educate him, but it is NOT giving him a CHANCE. Shaun Hately wrote: << as someone who spent a large part of their childhood, stuck in classrooms that had been designed to be nice and comfortable for everyone except me (OK - that's an exageration, I wasn't the only one who missed out in those classrooms), I have to say that can be pretty soul destroying. >> I'm sure Snape never wanted any of his classrooms to be nice and comfortable for anyone except himself and maybe his few favorite Slytherins, but Mel (Melpomene?) was arguing that a classroom in which Hermione is not allowed to speak is a classroom designed to be an educational learning environment for everyone except Hermione. Your word, "soul destroying", is a pretty good description of my elementary school experience: Teacher asks the class a question. I am the only person to raise a hand. Teacher looks at the class and says: "Doesn't anyone want to answer?" What am I, invisible?! Still no more hands go up. Teacher briefly scolds the class for no one even wants to *try*. Great, I'm not only invisible, I'm scolded for what I *FOR SURE* did not do! Poor Hermione was reflexively trying to *please* him, by showing that she is not guilty of what he was accusing the class of (ignorance). He punishes her for speaking, for trying to please him. I'm surprised that *you* would side with the typical schoolteacher desire to destroy Hermione for the sake of the better educating the other classmates. From tahewitt at yahoo.com Sun May 4 06:36:21 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 23:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wizard Suicide In-Reply-To: <1052007080.2801.77543.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030504063621.19996.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56896 Laura wrote: What do you guys think about wizard suicide?... ...Not only that, how do wizards kill themselves, assuming they wanted to? _______ Coulden't they just cast an Avada Kedavra at themselves? Or if that's not posible, cast one at Harry, and it would bounce off of him (leaving a nasty scar) and do in the sender! Tyler __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From indyattic at earthlink.net Sat May 3 23:50:51 2003 From: indyattic at earthlink.net (indyattic) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 23:50:51 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Mortality (was: Re: 'Fan' quote) In-Reply-To: <20030503004717.14397.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56897 Becky Walkden wrote: > > Me: Of COURSE (the movies are indicators)! The simple fact is, the studios would NOT waste money on hiring an actor to play in a movie when his character is no longer going to be there! And conversely, since they wanted the same actors for all seven movies, there is no other concieivable explanation for only giving him a 5 year contract when there are 7 movies to be made! I think you can rest with an absolute certainty that Ms. Rowlings was extensively consulted before handing out those contracts. Huggs Becky I disagree. First, 7 year contracts aren't long enough to make 7 movies. Perhaps the studios begged for a 7 year contract, but Robbie Coltrane held out. He is a much bigger screen presence in the UK than the US, so it is quite possible that he is betting that he'll be able to command a larger salary for subsequent re-signings if his face becomes more recognizable to US audiences. Finally, if the ghosting theory floating aboutis accurate, perhaps Hagrid will appear in that capacity? Therefore, maybe both scenarios are possible. Hagrid dies, yet his character continues on. (My first post - easy on the curses, because even I'm afraid it might tip too much towards movie discussion.) Angie ADMIN NOTE: This thread, like a certain flying car, appears to be steering inexorably towards the Whomping Willow of discussing the movie on the main list. Any poster who wants to reply to Angie's post by discussing the actors' contracts should do so on the movie list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ Any poster who wants to reply to Angie's post by discussing Hagrid reappearing as a ghost, or any other reason that Hagrid might be a major player in only 5 out of 7 books should do so on the main list. Any poster who wants to do both will have five house points taken off for being an insufferable know-it-all ;-) Thank you Pip for the Administration Team From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sun May 4 03:55:21 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 03:55:21 -0000 Subject: "we haven't seen the last of THEM!!!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Pessin" wrote: > OK, I had a bit too much free time, so I'm trying to compile a list of > secondary and semi-minor characters we're just SURE we'll see again in > the next three books. Anybody else got any additions? Corrections? > "Wow, you're a geek" accusations? > > Sirius Black > Remus Lupin > Peter Pettigrew > Bill Weasley > Fleur Delacour > Guileroy Lockhart > Rita Skeeter > Cornelius Fudge > Mundungus Fletcher > Arabella Figg > Daedalus Diggle > Moaning Myrtle > Narcissa Malfoy (and family) > Alastor Moody > Avery > the Lestranges > Olympe Maxime > Igor Karkarroff > The Infamous Florence > Firenze, Bane, and co. > > That's all I got. Anybody else? Plumb your wildest theories. I want > the ultimate checklist to go through. > > Hobbit-guy, who REALLY oughta be studying for finals. Oh, well... LOL. Wow, you are a geek. I should be studying too, but book release fever is gripping tight and i have surfed like a true fanatic looking for theory to tide me over till June. I am not sure about characters that we'll see in the next books, Jonathon. Though, I think there is a Weasley brother that you've left out in your list. Thats about all i can think of, oh, and the mysterious Old Wizard present at Buckbeaks execution ala somebody elses post. A post which raised my particular interest. There is a thing I have found, in anticipation of the fifth instalment, that we should look out for in book five. It is a room with mysterious magical properties, that was mentioned, but not explored, in book four. < scramble to find this canon> It is a hint about future developments from this JK online interview http://www.geocities.com/the_dilapidated_one/Other/JKCT.htm . I dont think it is the pensieve, that was explored quite thoroughly already, nor Dumblydorrs office ? What do you all think? > anyway back to study, I wish, roll on June. > TheValk From gishdaydream at hotmail.com Sun May 4 02:57:22 2003 From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 02:57:22 -0000 Subject: OOP: DADA teacher... a theory... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56899 Okay... so I'm really big into Greek, and Roman mythologies... as well as other ancient mythologies. Anycrud. I was re-reading SS/PS (HA! No surprises here) and I was at the part where Harry was getting his school robes. And I'm not sure if this has already been discussed or not. Becuase yeah... so I was looking at the name of the shop "Madam Malkin's robe shop" and I was like... Malkin... hmmm... then I was like. HEY! I've heard of that one before. Anyone heard of a scholar in Greek Mythology by the name of Professor Irad Malkin? anyone? .. anyone? (Bueler... bueler.. ) *laughs at stupid joke*... WELL, this is just a little theory. But I did some research on the name Malkin (because I'm sad and I have that sort of time on my hands) and Malkin is slang for a 'poorly- dressed woman', or 'dust rags' BUT Madam Malkin (the name) can also mean cat or rabbit. Okie... so I have a little theory that maybe (and this is a HUGE maybe) that our next DADA teacher could be Madam Malkin. This is only based on the Professor Irad Malkin though. It could really hold no sigificance... but with J.K.R. you never know. Going back to what I said about also meaning cat or rabbit. I was thinking about Mrs. Figg and how she always had Harry look through her pictures of all her cats. I personally think that those aren't just cats and those are in fact animagus. Good or Evil I'm not sure. and the reason for this is because she would want Harry to be able to easily recognize them if he were ever to see those cats/people if they were evil or something. Or if they were good... have the 'one- up' on the bad guys... how, I'm not yet sure... Going back to the cat thing though... since Malkin can mean cat or rabbit (and i'm going with cat right now) I'm thinking (and only a theory) that Madam Malkin is a possible animagus and can change into a cat. Maybe one of Mrs. Figgs cats that she wants Harry to remember... or maybe not. But the possibility is out there. But any crud... if this has or hasn't been discussed... just let me know in a gentle way. Be nice, it's my first post. (smile) Ari From gishdaydream at hotmail.com Sun May 4 03:08:39 2003 From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 03:08:39 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56900 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "guardianapcelt" wrote: >On page 31 of SS it mentions Dudley knocking down "old Mrs. Figg, >as she crossed private drive on her crutches." I know it's been >established that she is a wizard, so I'm curious as to why she was >on crutches in the first place. -snip- >Why was Mrs. Figg's leg not healed then? If she is, as has been >suggested, Harry's Secret Keeper while he's at the Dursley's, she >could just have been keeping to her cover story when she went to >check up on him, but did she really allow her leg to heal in the >muggle manner to keep up a cover story? -snip- >So how is she to know how long it would take a broken leg to heal >using muggle methods? - Joe How strange.. I was just thinking the same thing today. But I have a theory. I don't believe a lot of people in her neighborhood knows that she is a witch. In a small neighborhood everyone knows pretty much everyones business. So if they knew that she broke her leg, and then saw her the next day walking around as if she hadn't broken her leg the neighborhood would be suspicious. Heck, I would be suspicious too. So I think she could have had it healed, and then had a fake cast pretending to have a broken leg. OR like you said had it heal the traditional muggle way. As far as her knowing how long it takes to heal a bone the muggle way they do have "Muggle Studies" at Hogwarts. So there is a chance she took that course when she attended school and they may study how long it takes muggles to heal from injuries and the such. Ari. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun May 4 04:31:25 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 23:31:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius and the DEs References: Message-ID: <3EB4979D.1230E898@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56901 a_rude_mechanical wrote: > > A while back there was a thread about Snape's reaction to Harry's > mention of Lucius at the DE reunion (at the end of GoF). I wondered > then if Snape was surprised that Lucius had returned to Voldie > because perhaps he believed that Lucius had repented of his ways so > to speak...My new thought is this: perhaps he truly did believe that > Lucius was under the imperious curse those many years ago, and part > of the reason he worked to bring Voldie down was to help friends that > he believed were under a spell--only to find out differently when > Harry gives the news? No, Lucius isn't a great guy. Yes, the > Malfoys have an interest in the Dark Arts. However, as you said, > that doesn't necessarily make someone a DE. Maybe he genuinely likes > Lucius and had hoped that he told the truth about acting under the > Imperious curse--sometimes being close to someone can cause us to be > blind about them. > I think Snape's reaction is because he KNEW Lucius is a DE and the very fact that Harry mentioned him proved that Harry was indeed telling the truth and not just making it up like Snape might have otherwise wanted to believe. He might have suddenly realized that Harry might have been telling the truth all along about other things as well, which might have caused him to see the boy in a different light after that. Jazmyn From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sun May 4 05:52:40 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 00:52:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504004849.01c03e38@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56902 guardianapcelt recently mentioned: >On page 31 of SS it mentions Dudley knocking down "old Mrs. Figg, as >she crossed private drive on her crutches." I know it's been >established that she is a wizard, so I'm curious as to why she was on >crutches in the first place. We've seen that in the wizarding world, >broken bones can be faced with a single spell (One wonders when if at >all Hogwarts students learn this, because as I've seen there are no >healing magic classes). Why was Mrs. Figg's leg not healed then? I would agree that it's likely she was trying to maintain a "muggle" cover with the broken leg. Constant Vigilance is a good policy, but if she gives away who and what she is, she won't be of any use as a Secret Keeper for Harry - and neighbors might notice if they knew she was injured and she was healed "too" quickly. >on page 80 of GOF). So how is she to know how long it would take a >broken leg to heal using muggle methods? - Joe She could easily look up the information in a general medical text - basically doing research for her "role" as a "normal muggle". Just a thought.... Kriselda (who's new *g*) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LeiaOS at aol.com Sun May 4 06:49:49 2003 From: LeiaOS at aol.com (LeiaOS at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 02:49:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions concerning Snape and Lucius Message-ID: <19c.1417b8c3.2be6120d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56903 In a message dated 5/3/2003 3:38:50 AM Central Standard Time, SusanXG at hotmail.com writes: > 2) Why did Snape agree to be Lockhart's assistant for the Dueling Club? Whas > > it because he wanted to show Lockhart up? Did he want to manipulate it so > Malfoy would duel Harry? Did Dumbledore encourage Snape to participate? My thought on this is that Snape knew what a complete egomaniacal fool Lockhart was and thought assistance would ensure that students learn at least some dueling skills. He might have wished to be in charge of it, but really, although Snape was technically the 'assistant', he really was in charge. AND >3) What is the nature of Snape and Lucius' relationship? Are they just >simply co-Death Eaters or does it go deeper than that? Are they related? >Cousins maybe? Does Snape stay close to the Malfoys because he wants to >protect Draco from Voldemort? To spy on the Malfoys because Lucius is one of >Voldy's high ranking DEs? > Well, as I was rereading Philosopher's Stone with my sister tonight, I was actually thinking about Lucius and Snape at Hogwarts. If they were around the same age, I have a hard time seeing them being friends based on what we know of their characters now. Neither Lucius nor Snape strike me as being followers, they are both intelligent and cunning, and I would be more likely to see them as rivals of a sort than friends. However, that's based on what we know of both men now, which very likely may be different from when they were at Hogwarts. Obviously a great number of things have happened to Snape since that time, including his turning away from the Death Eaters and Voldemort and we still don't really know what precipitated that. All we really know for certain about Snape is that he came to Hogwarts already knowing several spells. It's possible he was less secure as a child and perhaps he and Lucius were friends. Snape is one of the characters I'm counting on finding out more about in OotP and I'm certainly looking forward to that. ~Sabrina~ 'I say to you all, once again- in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.' ~Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chrissilein at yahoo.com Sun May 4 06:55:54 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Chrissi) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 06:55:54 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points In-Reply-To: <5F007700-7CC7-11D7-AD2F-000393447E36@cnous.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56904 Annechan: > Snape on the other's way... was intelligent (cf knowing more curses > than seventh grade students) but not enough to be the first student > (James was, Sirius was second, and I bet Lily was third) he wasn't a > headboy (James was) and on the quidditch field, we don't know if he > played, we just know he's skilled enough to be a referee (anyway James > > Hi, are you sure about your statement? How do you know there is such a "category" of intelligence?? To be first student is definitly no proof for beeing most intelligent! Traditionally first student will become the person who gets most promotion!!! In fact promotion means very often popularity, because it is a very important indicator for feeling good and beloved. That?s the best supposition for it. I work with kids professionally so I know what I`m talking about. There are different forms of intelligence and talents. Maybe you will argue now James, Sirius and Lily were the brightest students? Yes the brightest we know! Why can we know that ? Very simple, because they were known by everybody. That means their qualifications as well. My own experience shows me why high intelligent students will get very often lower graduation levels, too. Because of mobbing. And sorry my view on Sirius isn?t all as well-meant as Anja?s. From my point of view he really was a mobber. If he succeded with something, then to to finish off Severus Snape psychologically. That was indeed a bad fundament for him to become best student at Hogwarts, or any other school. Maybe Severus did many unpopular things, too. I don?t deny that. But Sirius lied when he told the kids, it served Severus right to die at the Whomping Willow. A man who speaks in this way is infantile by brain and heart, sorry. I?m "in his age", so I see at him with much more strictness. I apologising that I used such a harsh speech towards Sirius, I like him, too. Chrissi From t.forch at mail.dk Sun May 4 08:52:48 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 10:52:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg Questions In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504004849.01c03e38@mail.kriselda.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030504104907.00ef1a30@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 56905 At 00:52 04-05-03 -0500, Kriselda Jarnsaxa wrote: >she won't be of any use as a Secret Keeper for Harry Might I inquire what secret she is supposed to keep for Harry? It is obviously not his 'home' (Hagrid and the Weasleys have no trouble finding Privet Drive 4), and I can't imagine any other secret Harry is keeping either. She might of course be hiding some secret /from/ Harry - something about his mother, perhaps. Troels From alison.williams at virgin.net Sun May 4 08:22:52 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison Williams) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:22:52 +0100 Subject: Question about Narcissa and the DEs In-Reply-To: <1052007080.2801.77543.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c31216$7bfa7d60$f0080150@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 56906 > It seems very clear that Narcissa Malfoy is not a Death Eater. But > there ARE some married couples that are both members of Voldie's > circle. Why Lucius, but not Narcissa? Is it possible that she > doesn't approve? Remember, she was the one who wanted to keep Draco > out of Durmstrang--ostensibly because it was too far away, but what > if the real reason was that she didn't want him to attend a school so > immersed in the Dark Arts? It seems possible to me. It might also help to account for Lucius' extreme irritability and bad temper if there is tension at home. Maybe its actually Narcissa who gives the donations to St Mungo's? > My friend offered up an interesting suggestion: what if becoming a > Death Eater is invitation only? Perhaps Narcissa didn't receive an > invite? That would be the case with most groups that demand such a degree of loyalty. > What do y'all think? > > Elisabeth, (who believes it possible that Narcissa is an Evans, and > didn't receive her invite because she is a "mudblood"...) I like this idea and given the significance of names in the books Lily, Petunia and Narsissa as a bouquet of sisters is a distict possibility! (However there are many other flower names, Lavender, Poppy, Pansy.. so that's not a strong argument.) It might help account for the Dursley's extreme fear of getting involved with the WW though. Alison From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 4 09:35:23 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 02:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape unfair with House Points? (WAS Re: Teacher Ratin... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030504093523.13130.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56907 --- backstagemystic wrote: > Had not Sirius been there in his animagus form > to fend-off Lupin when > he transformed into a werewolf, it could have > been disastrous for one > of the trio. Lynn: Ahh, but had Sirius and Peter Pettigrew not been there, Lupin would most certainly have remembered to take his potion and therefore wouldn't have been a threat. Snape didn't see Lupin as a threat because he was worried about the danger to the kids as a werewolf. Snape doesn't like Lupin from school days and it has carried over. Had Lupin not been a werewolf, I believe Snape would have searched for another reason to either prevent/get rid of Lupin. That being said, and to be fair to Snape, he might have considered Lupin a danger because of Sirius, a point which Lupin himself acknowledges when Lupin doesn't tell about the other secret passages. Snape's anger had to have grown over the year. As you say, Snape is imparting all his pearls of wisdom and is still an unpopular teacher. Lupin comes in and becomes a popular teacher, at least the POV we're privy too portrays both these opinions and granted they are a bit biased. ;) Lupin shows himself to be creative as a teacher as well, something Snape really didn't like given the boggart incident. Personally, if Snape hadn't commented on Neville before leaving the room, I don't think we would have seen Grandma Snape. Lupin was teaching Neville how to deal with a bully. I wonder though, how Snape must have felt knowing that the thing Neville fears most is himself. I also wonder why, in the previous two years, no teacher had taken Hermione aside and told her that everyone knows that she'll know the answer but she really needs to give the other students the opportunity to answer questions themselves. Lynn (who would really have liked to see a Dueling Club with Snape and Lupin doing the demonstrating.) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 4 09:55:21 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 02:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: DADA teacher... a theory... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030504095521.30557.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56908 --- Ari wrote: > > I was > thinking about Mrs. Figg and how she always had > Harry look through > her pictures of all her cats. Lynn: I have no clue about any possible Malkin link, however, you did hit upon something that has been fermenting in my brain for a while. I also believe Mrs. Figg has been showing Harry those cat pictures for a specific purpose. While your theory about their being animagus may be correct, I'd been thinking more along the Mrs. Norris lines. If Harry's in trouble and sees one of Mrs. Figg cats, calling out their name would be like a call for help. While Harry believes these are all the cats Mrs. Figg has ever owned, that is something we really don't know for sure. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 4 10:06:52 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 03:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "we haven't seen the last of THEM!!!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030504100652.55886.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56909 --- Monita wrote: > It is a room > with mysterious magical properties, that was > mentioned, but not > explored, in book four. < scramble to find this > canon> Lynn: Well, one room I can think of that was mentioned in Book 4 that wasn't explored was the "beautifully proportioned room ... containing a really rather magnificent collection of chamberpots." (GoF, p. 363, UK) As we know, Dumbledore said he went back to investigate and couldn't find it, speculating it "may only be accessible at five thirty in the morning. Or it may only appear at the quarter moon - or when the seeker has an exceptionally full bladder." (Ibid.) I don't think Dumbledore was lying about there being a room but rather using a truth in a fun way. Who knows, it may also be his way of telling Harry about the room. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 4 11:15:48 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 11:15:48 -0000 Subject: Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: <19c.1417b8c3.2be6120d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56910 > > >3) What is the nature of Snape and Lucius' relationship? Are they just simply co-Death Eaters or does it go deeper than that? Are they related? > >Cousins maybe? Does Snape stay close to the Malfoys because he wants to protect Draco from Voldemort? To spy on the Malfoys because Lucius is one of Voldy's high ranking DEs? > Just as an aside to the question of whether Snape and Lucius went to school, I don't think so. I think, however, that the first-name basis between Lucius and Arthur Weasley, and the deep animosity, indicates that THEY went to school together. It also makes sense for Snape to maintain, either through desire or need to keep a cover, a relationship with former DEs. And he has to at least appear to protect Draco and young Crabbe and Goyle, else the little darlings will go running to their fathers and say that Snape has gone soft. If Snape ever had to spy again, like he might -- although I hope not -- then that would be remembered. Darrin From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 4 11:55:02 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 11:55:02 -0000 Subject: OK... theory I read while I was gone Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56911 I was at a Mankato, Minn. Barnes&Noble while I was gone on my trip and I went to the Harry Potter section, thinking I'd get one of the books on CD for the drive back (no, not at $50 a shot.) But anyway, I found a book by something called World Wizarding Press, delving into the clues and theories of the books. First, let me apologize if this theory has been covered about a million times. It was the first time I'd heard it. There was a REALLY novel theory there about Lupin, backed up by some circumstantial evidence, but it does fit with the "WHOA!" kind of twists we've come to demand. Not sure I believe it, but thought it would be fun to put out there. Lupin IS James. The book speculated that, as an added precaution against Voldemort, Lupin and James SWITCHED bodies. Lupin inside James was killed while James inside Lupin lived. The theory is that there is something about the male line of Potters that V-Mort must destroy, and therefore, must be protected at all costs. James has been living inside Lupin all this time, suffering the werewolf curse and generally shunning society. No one, not even D- Dore, knows the truth. Here is the evidence, fairly shaky, but here it is. PoA, pg 68: "Are you all right, Harry?" Harry didn't ask how Prof. Lupin knew his name. The book made an issue out of this, but of course, it's explained by the scar, green eyes, and extraordinary resemblance to James. Page 140: "Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though he had made to grip Harry's shoulder..." A father wanting to touch his son? pge 178: "You heard James?" said Lupin, in a strange voice. Again, could be explained through the friendship of Lupin and James. Pg 195: Lupin looked "both shaken and pleased" over Harry's Patronus, which we later find out was a stag. pge 260: "the possibilities were endless now that we could all transform" Why wouldn't Lupin say "they" transform. Again, I think it's a touch weak, but there you go. Lupin's distrust of Sirius still fits, and when he finds out Sirius wasn't the betrayer, his relief does as well. There are a million holes, but again, kind of a nice twist, wouldn't you think? Commence shouting. Darrin -- Twist and Shout would be a good name for a song... wait, never mind. From amani at charter.net Sun May 4 12:23:02 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 08:23:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quote from GOF References: Message-ID: <003201c31237$e8582d60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56912 Nicole: "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the quote properly. Me: Matter of personal perspective. Voldemort is so anti-Muggle that even the "tainting" of Lily by having Muggle makes her a Muggle. Similar to when he refers to Harry as a Half-Blood, even though he's Pureblooded. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 4 12:37:14 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:37:14 -0000 Subject: Quote from GOF In-Reply-To: <003201c31237$e8582d60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56913 > Me: > Matter of personal perspective. Voldemort is so anti-Muggle that even the "tainting" of Lily by having Muggle makes her a Muggle. Similar to when he refers to Harry as a Half-Blood, even though he's Pureblooded. > > --Taryn > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There seems to be a distinction as well between purebloods. Harry, though "pure" in that he has a witch mother and wizard father, has Muggle blood through his mother's parents, where Ernie MacMillian and Draco make points about being pure for several generations. Even Hagrid, Harry's friend, though not the most enlightened fellow racially (nod to Jenny to show I'm not a blind Hagrid follower) makes a comment during GoF about wanting Harry to win the Cup so "it would show you don't have to be pureblood to win." My fondest wish is that Narcissa tells Lucius and Draco that her father was actually a dockworker in Liverpool who found all magic to be "a sign of the devil" and she only married Lucius for his money. "Oh, and by the way, Lucius," she says, pointing her wand at Draco, whose blond hair turns greasy black and whose cold grey eyes turn black. "Draco is Snape's." Heeheeeheeheee. Darrin -- Likes Narcissa for that whole IceQueen BadGirl thing that is the opposite of the Hurt!Comfort thing that had me befuddled. :) From alician at bigpond.com Sun May 4 12:43:22 2003 From: alician at bigpond.com (Alicia) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:43:22 -0000 Subject: "we haven't seen the last of THEM!!!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56914 Hobbit-guy wrote: >I'm trying to compile a list of secondary and semi-minor characters >we're just SURE we'll see again in the next three books. Anybody >else got any additions? Corrections? "Wow, you're a geek" >accusations? I wouldn't say I was SURE we'll see them again, but I'd put Bode and Croaker, the Unspeakables from the Department of Mysteries on that list. If not them, then some other Unspeakables. Otherwise, why bother having Mr Weasley mention (at the World Cup, I think) he has no idea what they do? Alicia who thought about Chief Wiggum's Forbidden Cupboard of Mystery as soon as she read about the Unspeakables, and consequently will not hurl geek accusations at anyone. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun May 4 13:33:25 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 13:33:25 -0000 Subject: "we haven't seen the last of THEM!!!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Pessin" wrote: > OK, I had a bit too much free time, so I'm trying to compile a list of > secondary and semi-minor characters we're just SURE we'll see again in > the next three books. Anybody else got any additions? Corrections? > "Wow, you're a geek" accusations? > > Sirius Black > Remus Lupin > Peter Pettigrew Not sure I think of these folks as secondary or minor. We'll definitely see more of them, IMO, because they're NOT minor. > Bill Weasley You forgot Charlie! Tsk! > Fleur Delacour Perhaps her sister Gabrielle? Her headmistress, Madame Maxime? > Gilderoy Lockhart Oof. I hope not. Maybe for comic relief. ;) > Rita Skeeter Probably, but I have a bad feeling about this. She's probably not feeling too warm and fuzzy about Hermione after being kept in a JAR. > Cornelius Fudge Unfortunately, yes. Probably also other Ministry types, like the executioner, MacNair. (Am I misremembering, or is he a DE? He was present at the graveyard in Little Hangleton, wasn't he?) Other Ministry people include Arthur's co-worker, Perkins (he lent the tents for the World Cup), and Basil (Department of Magical Transportation). > Mundungus Fletcher > Arabella Figg > Daedalus Diggle You forgot Doris Crockford. > Moaning Myrtle > Narcissa Malfoy (and family) > Alastor Moody > Avery I'm also thinking we'll see the elder Crabbe and Goyle, also present in the Little Hangleton graveyard. > the Lestranges > Olympe Maxime Oh, there she is! (Right--how do you miss Madame Maxime? ) > Igor Karkarroff > The Infamous Florence I doubt the Florence mystery will ever be solved. Just a feeling. > Firenze, Bane, and co. Oh, I hope so. And I get the feeling that Hermione will have to eat her words about Divination, especially as practiced by Centaurs, who seem to know what they're doing, but are reluctant to share their information with humans. Others that occured to me: The Diggorys Aberforth Dumbledore (mentioned only in passing, once) Aunt Marge Piers Polkiss & Dudley's other friend (name escaping me) Yvonne (Petunia's partner in gossip) Florean Fortescue Mr. Borgin (of Borgin and Burkes) Ollivander Stan Shunpike & Ernie Penelope Clearwater Oliver Wood (he's out of school now) The Flying Ford Anglia Aragog > > That's all I got. Anybody else? Plumb your wildest theories. I > want the ultimate checklist to go through. That's all I can muster at this time. I was reduced to a flying car and a giant spider. I'm fairly certain that Crookshanks will figure again too, but as he's the pet of one of Trio, I'm not sure that counts as a 'secondary' character. And I don't really think of Hedwig and Pigwidgeon as 'characters' so much as devices for mail to be delivered. Perhaps we'll see more of Fawkes? That would be nice. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sun May 4 14:23:58 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:23:58 -0000 Subject: The mysterious room In-Reply-To: <20030504100652.55886.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > > --- Monita wrote: > > It is a room > > with mysterious magical properties, that was > > mentioned, but not > > explored, in book four. < scramble to find this > > canon> > > Lynn: > > Well, one room I can think of that was mentioned > in Book 4 that wasn't explored was the > "beautifully proportioned room ... containing a > really rather magnificent collection of > chamberpots." (GoF, p. 363, UK) As we know, > Dumbledore said he went back to investigate and > couldn't find it, speculating it "may only be > accessible at five thirty in the morning. Or it > may only appear at the quarter moon - or when the > seeker has an exceptionally full bladder." > (Ibid.) > > I don't think Dumbledore was lying about there > being a room but rather using a truth in a fun > way. Who knows, it may also be his way of > telling Harry about the room. Me: I have thought that this room is the one that JKR must be refering to ever since I read the transcript of the interview in question. DD has mentioned things in front of Harry before that seem inconsequencial at the time but turn out to be important. For example: "Fascinating creatures, pheonixes. They can carry immensly heavy loads, their tears have healing powers, and theyt makes highly *faithful* pets." pg 207 US paperback COS I'm sure that there are more examples of this but my brain doesn't seem to be completely on line yet this morning. Linda-who firmly believes that all is not what it seems From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun May 4 14:30:53 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:30:53 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: 'now me:' Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56917 Greetings from Hexquarters! Recently we have noticed a huge increase in posters heading their replies 'now me:' As in: You quote Anymember's post, then reply - ******************************************************************** Now me: I don't think many people will die in OOP. Just Hagrid. And Hermione. And Lupin. Maybe Snape will get killed when he's spying? And Malfoy might kill Hedwig to get at Harry. And Voldemort will kill one of the twins for throwing snowballs at him in PS. Uh, and maybe Dumbledore will die so that Harry has to face Voldemort by himself. Oh, that would mean Ron would have to die as well. ******************************************************************** This is beginning to give us headaches. You see, 'now me:' is fine until someone quotes you, and then heads *their* reply, 'now me:' ******************************************************************** Now me: > I don't think many people will die in OOP. Just Hagrid. And > Hermione. And Lupin. Maybe Snape will get killed when he's spying? > And Malfoy might kill Hedwig to get at Harry. And Voldemort will > kill one of the twins for throwing snowballs at him in PS. Uh, and > maybe Dumbledore will die so that Harry has to face Voldemort by > himself. Oh, that would mean Ron would have to die as well. Now me: That would make for a really dramatic opening of Book Six. Harry would be standing at the graveside, crying, with Dumbledore and Snape sobbing in the background. Oh, they'd be dead, wouldn't they? OK, Harry with the *ghosts* of Dumbledore and Snape in the background. ******************************************************************** We then have to work out whether it's 'now me:' or 'now me:' who's speaking. This can be confusing. Things are further complicated when a third person quotes both of you. ******************************************************************** >> Now me: >> I don't think many people will die in OOP. Just Hagrid. And >> Hermione. And Lupin. Maybe Snape will get killed when he's spying? >> And Malfoy might kill Hedwig to get at Harry. And Voldemort will >> kill one of the twins for throwing snowballs at him in PS. Uh, and >> maybe Dumbledore will die so that Harry has to face Voldemort by >> himself. Oh, that would mean Ron would have to die as well. > Now me: > That would make for a really dramatic opening of Book Six. Harry > would be standing at the graveside, crying, with Dumbledore and > Snape sobbing in the background. Oh, they'd be dead, wouldn't they? > OK, Harry with the *ghosts* of Dumbledore and Snape in the > background. Now me: So what will Book Six be called? Harry Potter and the Hogwarts Mass Funeral? ******************************************************************** We then have to work out whether 'now me:' is replying to 'now me:', or whether it's actually 'now me:' replying to 'now me:' AND 'now me:'. Or, of course, it could be 'now me:' replying to 'now me:' who is replying to 'now me:', now (but not me). In the interests of reducing the consumption of headache potion among the administration team; could posters consider heading replies with their name?. This is not a requirement. No one will be sent a howler for heading a reply 'now me:'. But we'd be very grateful. ;-) Pip For the Administration Team From drmm at fuuko.com Sun May 4 13:56:02 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 13:56:02 -0000 Subject: Snape as a substitute teacher and Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I've been away for five days and I made it through about 150 of the > 300 or so posts. But, I wanted to break down further Snape's day > substituting for Lupin in PoA. > > Snape commits several teaching sins here. > > 1) He gets his facts wrong. According to Fantastic Beasts, the Kappa > is found in Japan. He tells a student. "that is incorrect, the Kappa > is more commonly found in Mongolia." (pg 129, UK) > > So, the student had it right and Snape had it wrong. Wonder if any > apology is forthcoming? > > Forgive me while I break a filling from laughing at the thought. > *cough* Actually, I always thought that said comment was a mistake on JKR's part rather than Snape's -- so, I think that Harry's writing in the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them book is JKR admitting she made a mistake. After all, she's not perfect. :) DrMM From paulined at optushome.com.au Sun May 4 13:40:47 2003 From: paulined at optushome.com.au (Pauline) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 23:40:47 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK... theory I read while I was gone Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030504234047.015c8e50@10.0.0.3> No: HPFGUIDX 56919 Darrin quoted Here is the evidence, fairly shaky, but here it is. >PoA, pg 68: "Are you all right, Harry?" >Harry didn't ask how Prof. Lupin knew his name. I imagine, as well as the physical similarity to James, most of the kids in the carriage were calling Harry's name when he passed out, or Lupin could have been awake some or all of the time he appeared to be dozing whilst they were travelling in the train. Lupin's distrust of Sirius still fits, and when he finds out Sirius wasn't the betrayer, his relief does as well. James should have known who the secret keeper was, even if he and Lupin had switched bodies. Interesting, thanks Darrin Pauline From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sun May 4 14:45:04 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:45:04 -0000 Subject: The unspeakables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56920 Alicia wrote: > I wouldn't say I was SURE we'll see them again, but I'd put Bode and > Croaker, the Unspeakables from the Department of Mysteries on that > list. If not them, then some other Unspeakables. Otherwise, why > bother having Mr Weasley mention (at the World Cup, I think) he has no idea what they do? Me: I've always thought that the unspeakables were mentioned because that was what Lily and James's jobs were. (I think that this has been mentioned before but I can't remember what thread it was on.) There is nothing in canon as yet to support this theory but it seems to fit in with the fact that we have no idea to this point what they did for a living. IMO, there is no way that Arthur Weasley (Harry's main source of info on the MoM)would not have known at least something about Harry's parents and would have told Harry what he knows unless: 1. He doesn't feel as if Harry is ready to hear it. 2. DD has asked him not to say anything because HE feels Harry is not ready to hear it. ( By the time Harry developes a relationship with the adult Weasleys DD is obviously aware of Harry's connection to the family.) -Linda From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 4 15:02:02 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 4 May 2003 15:02:02 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1052060522.30.24970.m5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56921 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 4, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Sun May 4 14:47:00 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:47:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's sudden movement and Fudging things Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56922 I was certain I'd seen this thread recently, but I can't find it, so apologies if it's duplication. We'll know soon enough, but I want to register a last minute vote for the theory that Snape is going to try and infiltrate the Death Eaters and is using Lucius Malfoy as his way back in. I've read so many HP theories I don't know if this idea is really mine or someone else's but this is the reading of Snape's sudden movement that I favour. He reacts involuntarily when Harry accuses Malfoy because if Lucius is arrested and carted off to Azkaban then his carefully cultivated Death Eater contact will be useless. He looks at Fudge to check if the Minister believes it, because if Fudge does, the plan is ruined. Incidentally I don't believe Fudge is a Death Eater. I think his behaviour at the end of GOF is exactly what it seems: sticking his head in the sand. I think this incompetence is verified by his name, as to fudge carries overtones of putting together something inadequate. Let's hope I don't have egg on my face after June 21 . Jo From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Sun May 4 14:50:11 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:50:11 -0000 Subject: Snape is NOT evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56923 My reason for thinking Snape will not betray the good side derives from the 1999 Scholastic Chat with JKR. Hidden in the infamous question and answer about Snape falling in love in book 7 is the following exchange. Interviewer: There's an important redemptive pattern to Snape. JKR: It is, isn't it? JKR doesn't give much away in interviews but she has never lied. If Snape was going back to Voldemort for real, or was evil in any other way, I don't think she would have made this remark. Furthermore, JKR is a more than nominal member of the Church of Scotland. If she practises Christianity then redemption is something she has to believe in. Snape is the only character in the series that could be described as a penitent. Whilst she may get the reader to question Snape's trustworthiness and commitment to good to build suspense, I don't think she would deny a key personal belief. So I'm giving up worrying and will trust in his and JKR's integrity. I think Snape won't backslide and will stay good. Jo From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 4 15:40:38 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 08:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030504154038.89463.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56924 --- darrin wrote: > > Lupin IS James. > Lupin's distrust of Sirius still fits, and when > he finds out Sirius > wasn't the betrayer, his relief does as well. > Lynn: I've got an uncorrected proof of this book and yes, it does come up with some very interesting theories. Sometimes I think they stretch a bit too far to support their theories but hey, in JKR's world it might not be that big a stretch. I think this theory is a stretch but it does depend on the interpretation of events. The thing that doesn't fit for me is if Lupin is James, why he would still distrust Sirius. James would have known that Pettigrew was the secret keeper and not Sirius. I don't see Lily and Lupin making that kind of decision without informing James of the change and I don't see James not doing anything to help Sirius or try to find Pettigrew after. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 4 16:18:05 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20030504234047.015c8e50@10.0.0.3> Message-ID: <20030504161805.94283.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56925 --- Pauline wrote: > I imagine, as well as the physical similarity > to James, most of the kids in > the carriage were calling Harry's name when he > passed out, or Lupin could > have been awake some or all of the time he > appeared to be dozing whilst > they were travelling in the train. > Lynn: I also believe that Lupin was brought on as teacher and was on the train as an extra precaution by Dumbledore to protect Harry. I just seems too coincidental that Lupin would choose this long train ride and just happen to be in the same compartment as HRH. Also, all the kids on the train were affected by the Dementors but Lupin just happened to have enough chocolate in his pocket. I think he was expecting the Dementors and knew they would have such an adverse affect on Harry given his background. In fact, given that the Dementors were about to give Harry the kiss later, it may in fact be the Dementors who Lupin put on the train to guard against. No one else reports that the Dementors wouldn't move along and yet Lupin had to do a Patronus to get rid of the Dementor for that compartment. I have no doubt that Lupin wasn't sleeping the whole time but rather giving the kids some privacy as he always seemed to make just the right noise at just the right time. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sun May 4 16:27:44 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:27:44 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA substitute (Was: Poor KnowItAll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56926 OK, I started this post intending to simply reply to the discussion about teaching styles and know-it-alls, but I have an English thesis to write, so I'm procrastinating as much as possible. Hopefully I won't get sued for all the copying from PoA I'll be doing. =) (For reference, this is in US paperback edition, Ch. 9: Grim Defeat, between pages 170 and 173) I've stolen someone else's trick and have numbered the points in the text I'll be referring to. < < < (1) *Snape takes 10 points from Gryffindor for Harry being late to class, and another 5 for not sitting down when asked.* "As I was saying before Potter interrupted, Professor Lupin has not left any record of the topic you have covered so far-" *Hermione tries to fill him in* "I did not ask for information, (2)I was merely commenting on Professor Lupin's lack of organization." "He's the best DADA teacher we've ever had," said Dean Thomas. "You are easily satisfied. (3)Lupin is hardly overtaxing you- (4)I would expect 1st years to be able to deal with Red Caps and grindylows." *Snape tells them to open to page about werewolves* 'Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf and the true wolf?' said Snape. Everyone sat in motionless silence; everyone except Hermione, whose hand, (5)as it so often did, had shot straight into the air. (6)'Anyone?' Snape said, ignoring Hermione. "we told you," said Parvati suddenly, "we haven't got as far as werewolves yet, we're still on-" "*silence*!" snarled Snape. "Well ,well ,well, I never thought I'd meet a third-year class who wouldn't even recognize a werewolf when they saw one. (7)I shall make a point of informing Professor Dumbledore how very begind you all are. . ." "Please sir," said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air., "the werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The sount of the werewolf-" (8)"That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Mss Granger," said Snape cooly. "Five more points from Gryffindor (9)for being an insufferable know-it-all." (10)"Very poorly explained. . .That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia. Professor Lupin gave this 8 out of 10? I wouldn't have given is 3. . ." (11)"You will each write an essay, to be handed in to me, on the ways you recognize and kill werewolves. I want two rolls of parchment on the subject, and I want them by Monday morning. (12) It is time somebody took this class in hand." < < < 1) Snape takes a total of 15 points from Harry for being late to class and not following instructions. In my opinion, justified, but a bit harsh, as McGonagall takes 20 points from Draco for being out of bed at night. However, I don't think we can really argue fairness, because that's obviously subjective. McGonagall obviously has different ideas from Snape, and there's no real way to tell them how to run the point system. We've seen Snape be very strict with points and Lupin be very generous. I believe Gryffindor receives about 50 points for the boggart lesson. I think what we need to argue is consistency. Lupin gave 5 points to each person from Gryffindor to battle the boggart, which is quite fair, as long as he gave 5 points to every person from Slytherin to battle it. Of course, we aren't shown that lesson. But we can't fault anyone for their different views on how many points anything is worth. As long as the teachers are consistent in their own use of the point system, it is fair. Although we have never seen Snape take points from Slytherin, he's fairly consistent with the points he's taken from Gryffindor. And I'll even argue that this might even things out, because Slytherins definitely get screwed all over. Even if Harry, Ron, and Hermione deserved the points he gave them in PS/SS, the way Dumbledore handed them out was completely *tactless* in my humble opinion. And I adore Dumbledore, so it's hard for me to say so. The first time I read it, I was so excited and happy that Harry and the Gryffindors beat the big, bad Slytherins and got to rub it in their faces. But the more I read and the more immersed I became in the HP world, I began to resent that move. Everytime I read that scene, I cringe with the way Dumbledore handles it. Dumbledore is opened- minded, but everyone has their faults. 2) Snape openly criticizes the teacher he is substituting for, which is very unprofessional. There is no need to do so. 3) "Lupin is hardly overtaxing you-" Um, excuse me, that's *Professor* Lupin to you. Dumbledore corrects Harry in PS/SS when he calls Severus just plain old, "Snape." I know, Lupin is Snape's co- worker and Harry's teacher, but still. In my school, when talking to students about their co-workers, my teachers refer to each other as Mr. or Mrs. In casual conversation, my friends and I might say, "we have Jones next." But to her face we call her "Mrs. Jones" and Mrs. Smith never tells us, "I eat lunch with Jones." She says, "I eat lunch with Mrs. Jones." And in my opinion, that's the way it should be. Snape needs to be shown the meaning of respect, IMHO. 4) Snape reprimands the class *and* Lupin for how behind they are, with the "I would expect first-years to know this" bit. This always irks me to no end- Snape damn well knows how incompetent the previous DADA teachers were. He was the only one we know from canon to fight against Quirrell's quest for the Stone, and he loathed Lockhart as much as the next guy. This, I think, shows not only how little respect he has for Lupin, but also in a way reinforces the AIDS-type stereotype we've discussed before. He blames Lupin for anything and everything- including things in which Snape knows Lupin is not at fault. Perhaps Lupin is *not* organized. Snape is justified in saying so, but it's unprofessional to say so to the class. What's even more unprofessional is to take another cheap shot at Lupin in front of the class- for something that Snape *knows* IS NOT Lupin's fault. 5) Now to tie in the teaching-style debate. Mel Claros sided with Snape: > > > But I honestly wish I had a dollar for every time I have had to say to the same student something along the lines of "Yes, I'm sure you have the answer, but why don't we give someone else a chance this time?" > > > Catlady says that if anyone else had wanted a chance, they could have raised their hands as well. To which I say "yes and no." I have a Hermione in my school. Kristi is in every one of my classes, and as I'm fairly good friends with her, I sit next to her in almost all of them. When Kristi raises her hand, no one else bothers. She's a wonderful person and I love her and all- but she *can* be an "insufferable know-it-all" at times. I completely understand Harry and Ron's (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the school's) predicament. They are good friends with Hermione, but sometimes they'd love to just tell her to shut the heck up already. It *can* be impossible to learn or think with someone like that next to you, as Harry notes in the lesson with the boggart in PoA. 6) Snape ignores Hermione. Catlady tells us how horrible it was for her when teachers used to do this to her: > > > Teacher asks the class a question. I am the only person to raise a hand. Teacher looks at the class and says: "Doesn't anyone want to answer?" What am I, invisible?! Still no more hands go up. Teacher briefly scolds the class for no one even wants to *try*. Great, I'm not only invisible, I'm scolded for what I *FOR SURE* did not do! Poor Hermione was reflexively trying to *please* him, by showing that she is not guilty of what he was accusing the class of (ignorance). He punishes her for speaking, for trying to please him. > > > I agree that sometimes teachers wish their bright students would just shut up, but ignoring them is not a good idea. However, I've seen teachers say things like, "So Hermione is the *only* one who knows this?" which is just as harmful, only to the rest of the class. So Hermione can be downright annoying, and she certainly hinders the rest of the class's learning- but Snape isn't doing anyone any good. He wants his class to be comfortable for him and him alone. 7) Snape threatens to tell Dumbledore how behind they are. This gets me every time. I get so frustrated- as mentioned before, he absolutely knows that none of this is Lupin's fault, and he intends to tell *Dumbledore* about it! Please, even if this weren't horribly immature ("I'm going to tell my mommy on you!") I'd still want to smack him- there's no need to say something like this to his students. Not only does he discredit the teacher, he also tries to make it seem as if some of this is *their* fault. Unless he was bluffing about it, which just makes him more of an idiot. 8) Completely justified. Hermione spoke out of turn. Snape tooks points. The end. I don't care how smart she is, she has no right to speak up when not asked. I honestly wish some of *my* teachers would "take points" or reprimand some of my classmates for this kind of behavior. It drives me nuts when people do this and makes it impossible for anyone else to learn. 9) Completely unjustified. Hermione *can* be an insufferable know- it-all. But for Snape to say that to the whole class is nothing short of childish. 10) Throughout the lesson, Snape continues to undermine Lupin's rule of the class and throw doubt on the students' abilities. Again, very unprofessional. I begin to wonder just how important the schoolbooks are to the scheme of things at this point. From FB we can learn that Snape was incorrect about the kappas. Is this evidence important? Perhaps that he isn't as good at DADA as claimed? I wonder how many clues are in the schoolbooks. 11) "You will each write an essay, to be handed in to me, on the ways you recognize and *kill* werewolves" emphasis mine. OK, so Snape wants the class to catch on to Lupin. How to recognize werewolves. Fine. But how to kill them? *shiver* Ok, I know, its DADA, they *do* need to know this kind of stuff. But it always kinda creeps me out that Snape gave the lesson about werewolves *because* of Lupin, and he includes information about killing them. Yuck. 12) "It is time somebody took this class in hand" Again, another unwarranted shot at Lupin. But it does have some truth to it- Hogwarts students *are* terribly behind in DADA. But is Snape really the man to keep them up on it? We've already been given some evidence to possibly disprove that. Also, you would think Dumbledore would find a competent DADA teacher. Considering all the dark things going on, I find it really unnerving that DADA never has a good teacher. Why couldn't Flitwick be the DADA teacher and Charms be the "cursed" position? But I honstly think that this statement by Snape will come back to haunt us- it *is* time that somebody took repsonsibility for teaching these students DADA. Lupin was good at it, but he resigned after a year. So, Snape is a horrible brat in this scene, but it does give us a lot to ponder about the DADA position. -Laura From alison.williams at virgin.net Sun May 4 15:19:27 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison Williams) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:19:27 +0100 Subject: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: <1052060528.5579.24985.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c31250$8e09dac0$2c100150@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 56927 That weird Lupin = James theory got me thinking. The main flaw in it - and it looks like a big one to me - is why has Lupin/James not taken any interest in Harry in the last 12 years? If there was such a switch isn't it much more plausible that Sirius was the one James switched with? After all *he's* been locked up in Askaban for the last 12 years. He was James' best friend so he would have been prepared to take the greatest risk in trying to protect him. If it had happened as a last resort once they'd realised that Peter was the traitor it would explain why Sirius was first on the scene after Voldemort had killed Lily and James and why he tried so hard to persuade Hagrid to let him take Harry. It would help explain why he was desperate enough to find a way to break out of Askaban on seeing the news that Harry was in danger from Peter, and why he went straight to Privet Drive/Magnolia Crescent rather than going straight after Peter. As he says in his letter to Harry at the end of PoA, "I had only hoped to get a glimpse of you before starting my journey north." It would explain why he risked sneaking past the Dementors just to watch a Quidditch match! That is one I've often wondered about. Some other evidence from the text. In PoA when Harry attacks Sirius it says, "Perhaps it was the shock of Harry doing something so stupid, but Black didn't raise the wands in time." Perhaps! Also in PoA when Sirius is explaining how he escaped from Azkaban he says, "I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I was innocent. That wasn't a happy thought, so the Dementors couldn't suck it out of me... because it kept me sane and knowing who I am... helped me keep my powers..." In GoF after Harry returns from his encounter with Voldemort. "Sirius was standing there, his face was as white and gaunt as it had been when he escaped from Askaban." "His hands shook as he helped Harry to a chair" Then throughout Harry's story Sirius keeps his hand on his shoulder and when Harry speaks about his parents "Sirius' grip on Harry's shoulder was now so tight it was painful." Of course, all of this *could* be explained by Sirius being a very devoted Godfather, but it makes more sense to me than Lupin/James. Alison From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 4 17:05:33 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:05:33 -0000 Subject: Snape as a substitute teacher and Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56928 DrMM wrote: > > *cough* Actually, I always thought that said comment was a mistake on > JKR's part rather than Snape's -- so, I think that Harry's writing in > the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them book is JKR admitting she > made a mistake. After all, she's not perfect. :) > > > DrMM Has JKR said in an interview that it was a mistake? I mean, if we're saying that the publishers halted production of the Fantastic Beats book so some artist could scribble Harry's handwriting in the margins to fix a mistake, then why not just... fix the mistake? If there is an interview where JKR has said the Kappas and Snape having his facts wrong was a mistake, then fine, I stand corrected. But otherwise, I see it is as JKR telling us something about Snape. Mainly, that as a DADA teacher, he's a helluva potions master. Darrin From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun May 4 17:07:03 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:07:03 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA substitute (Was: Poor KnowItAll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56929 Now this will surprise you...A Snapologist is going to agree with several points in a "Snape is an immature brat" post....HOWEVER note I said several, not all: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura" wrote:> > 2) Snape openly criticizes the teacher he is substituting for, which > is very unprofessional. There is no need to do so. True. As is your reference to his "forgetting" to use an honorific when referring to (Professor) Lupin. Bad form. But it may be--and this is going to be accused of fanfictamination--a result of breeding. The "Veddy" upper classes have a condescending habit of addressing and referring to their 'inferiors' in such a manner. We don't know anything about Snape's breeding, that's speculation on my part. > 4) Snape reprimands the class *and* Lupin for how behind they are, > with the "I would expect first-years to know this" bit. This always > irks me to no end- Snape damn well knows how incompetent the previous > DADA teachers were. He was the only one we know from canon to fight > against Quirrell's quest for the Stone, and he loathed Lockhart as > much as the next guy. This, I think, shows not only how little > respect he has for Lupin, but also in a way reinforces the AIDS- type > stereotype we've discussed before. He blames Lupin for anything and > everything- including things in which Snape knows Lupin is not at > fault. Perhaps Lupin is *not* organized. Snape is justified in > saying so, but it's unprofessional to say so to the class. What's > even more unprofessional is to take another cheap shot at Lupin in > front of the class- for something that Snape *knows* IS NOT Lupin's > fault. Now this I see as LESS an attack on (Professor) Lupin as a general Snape rant on the state of DADA teaching at Hogwarts. I never really took this as a personal criticism of Lupin when reading this and still don't. "Knowing" Snape, I'm sure he meant to get that angle in as well, but honestly I believe it's more his frustration over the past several years of general incometence as you yourself have pointed out. I'm one of those who does not believe for a minute that Snape wants the job himself, but his comment that "It's time someone took this class in hand" IS VALID! These kids are woefully behind and there really is NO EXCUSE for that. No, it's not Lupin's fault. But neither is it Snape's, he knew about Quirrel and was on to Lockhart from day ONE. So, what it amounts to is a waste of class time and a yes, immature display of arrogance. > > > 6) Snape ignores Hermione. Ok, he's a misery. But Hermione knows Snape. She knows she annoys the hell out of him. Has she learned NOTHING? No? Well then she deserves it even more than I originally thought. > 7) Snape threatens to tell Dumbledore how behind they are. This gets me every time. I get so frustrated- as mentioned before, he > absolutely knows that none of this is Lupin's fault, and he intends > to tell *Dumbledore* about it! Please, even if this weren't horribly > immature ("I'm going to tell my mommy on you!") I'd still want to > smack him- there's no need to say something like this to his > students. Not only does he discredit the teacher, he also tries to > make it seem as if some of this is *their* fault. Unless he was > bluffing about it, which just makes him more of an idiot. See above. Yes, it's a tantrum. There's no reason to strut it in front of the students but once again It Is A Valid Point. Perhaps, he thinks knowing that these kids don't care 2 knuts for his opinion, they might be motivated if DD shows his sequined robes over the grindylowe tank. Again, I don't think he's discrediting Lupin here. Even if he's trying. Everyone in that room including Snape himself and DD if he showed up know why that class is behind. > Snape was incorrect about the kappas. Is this evidence important? > Perhaps that he isn't as good at DADA as claimed? I wonder how many > clues are in the schoolbooks. Curious. IS he wrong or was JKR herself as was mentioned here earlier? I actually prefer to think HE was wrong--as it goes with my personal belief that he isn't interested in DADA but would much rather stay with his potions. > > 11) "You will each write an essay, to be handed in to me, on the ways you recognize and *kill* werewolves" emphasis mine. OK, so Snape wants the class to catch on to Lupin. How to recognize werewolves. > Fine. But how to kill them? *shiver* Ok, I know, its DADA, they > *do* need to know this kind of stuff. But it always kinda creeps me > out that Snape gave the lesson about werewolves *because* of Lupin, > and he includes information about killing them. Yuck. Killing werewolves? Now WHY would Severus Snape think it necessary that a Hogwarts student know how to defend him/herself against a werewolf--*killing* it if need be? I CAN'T IMAGINE! > > 12) "It is time somebody took this class in hand" Again, another > unwarranted shot at Lupin. But it does have some truth to it- > Hogwarts students *are* terribly behind in DADA. But is Snape really the man to keep them up on it? He's right! I know I've addressed this point 2x but He IS! And despite what his intentions were I still don't see this as a personal slight against Lupin. If that's what he meant (and likely it is) he failed utterly. Point 2--is he the one to do the job? Again, I don't think he wants to be. Oh, and thanks for the interesting mention of the Slytherin's boggart lesson. That would have been good to see. I like Lupin and certainly hope he would have treated them to the same quality teaching. Why do I have a sick feeling in my gut saying, 'nope, they got redcaps'? From flamingstarchows at att.net Sun May 4 17:05:50 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 12:05:50 -0500 Subject: [was: Snape as DADA substitute) Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS References: Message-ID: <004a01c3125f$91232ae0$8d89560c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 56930 From: Laura Even if Harry, Ron, and Hermione deserved the points he gave them in PS/SS, the way Dumbledore handed them out was completely *tactless* in my humble opinion. And I adore Dumbledore, so it's hard for me to say so. The first time I read it, I was so excited and happy that Harry and the Gryffindors beat the big, bad Slytherins and got to rub it in their faces. But the more I read and the more immersed I became in the HP world, I began to resent that move. Everytime I read that scene, I cringe with the way Dumbledore handles it. Dumbledore is opened-minded, but everyone has their faults. --Me-- My thought on this is that Dumbledore really knew the truth about Norbert the dragon and Harry & Hermione's efforts to help Hagrid (who else could have returned Harry's Invisibility Cloak to his dorm after being left on top of the Astronomy tower?). McGonagall had taken away 50 points each when she caught Harry, Hermione, and then Neville out at night (while only taking 20 from Draco). Dumbledore awarding Harry, Hermione and Ron 50 points each to Gryffindor for their efforts to try and save the Stone was no more out of line than McGonagall was in taking them away for being out of bed. Neville did show bravery in trying to keep them from leaving the common room, but by awarding him 10 points it also helped to redeem him from the 150 he helped to loose on that fateful night. I'm not really sure why you would think that the manner he handed them out was completely tactless. In the hospital room, he told Harry that what had happened was a complete secret, so of course the entire school knew. I really don't think it was a surprise to the rest of the school (except maybe Slytherin) when he handed out the points as he did. ~Cathy~ From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sun May 4 17:19:39 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (Gina R Rosich) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 13:19:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as a substitute teacher and Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56931 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" > wrote: >> > I've been away for five days and I made it through about 150 of the >> > 300 or so posts. But, I wanted to break down further Snape's day >> > substituting for Lupin in PoA. >> > >> > Snape commits several teaching sins here. >> > >> > 1) He gets his facts wrong. According to Fantastic Beasts, the > Kappa >> > is found in Japan. He tells a student. "that is incorrect, the > Kappa >> > is more commonly found in Mongolia." (pg 129, UK) >> > >> > So, the student had it right and Snape had it wrong. Wonder if any >> > apology is forthcoming? >> > >> > Forgive me while I break a filling from laughing at the thought. >> > > > > ME: > > I always thought that Snape knows what it says in the book, but is making a > point that the book is actually wrong. Surely, we?ve all found an occasion > where a book says something that turns out to be incorrect. > > Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 4 17:23:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:23:32 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56932 It's not Hagrid. It's not Snape. Now that Lockhart is gone, the real worst teacher at Hogwarts is Trelawney! Here are her sins. 1) Completely unprofessional to tell a student at the beginning of each school year that he or she will die. Unprofessional for two reasons. One, duh, it's a horrible thing to say to a young person. Two, unless someone ACTUALLY dies, you basically show that you're a fraud, every year. 2) For all of the griping - actually it's from ONE person :P - about Hagrid's closeness to the Trio, Trelawney has developed similar relationships with Lavender and Parvati. 3) You think Snape was mean to Hermione? (Well, yeah, he was, the slimy git) Trelawney's response to having her predictions challenged is to tell Hermione "I don't think you have the gift." That's equivalent to a language teacher who has been caught not knowing what he or she is talking about saying "well, you don't have the aptitude for language." Complete B.S. My theory is that Snape, on some level, fears Hermione, or at least is a little wary. Not physically, but fears that she will surpass whatever his accomplishments at Hogwarts. She solved his logic puzzle easily, when it was meant to be a defense against Lord Voldemort! Sheesh, how embarassing. She KNEW about werewolves, indicating that she's willing and able to read ahead AND understand lessons, kinda like he was. I think THAT'S why he takes every opportunity to slap her down, not because he wants her to come back stronger, but because he wants her to stay down. Trelawney isn't even smart enough to be wary of Hermione. This all leads to another question. Hogwarts is THE school in Britain, and on par with the best schools in Europe. Why the hell can't they attract a better quality of teacher? Even overburdened American public schools could do better than an obviously mentally-damaged Quirrell, an obviously incompetent Lockhart, an in-over-his-head (AT TIMES, JENNY!) Hagrid, and a ridiculous fraud like Trelawney. Yeah, yeah, it's not a real school. But still, one would think professors would fight to teach at Hogwarts. Instead, Dumbledore seems to be left with the dregs. Darrin - You know, how did Quirrell get through the logic puzzle? And the chess set, for that matter! From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 4 17:33:20 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:33:20 -0000 Subject: [was: Snape as DADA substitute) Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: <004a01c3125f$91232ae0$8d89560c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56933 Cathy wrote: > My thought on this is that Dumbledore really knew the truth about Norbert > the dragon and Harry & Hermione's efforts to help Hagrid (who else could > have returned Harry's Invisibility Cloak to his dorm after being left on top > of the Astronomy tower?). McGonagall had taken away 50 points each when she > caught Harry, Hermione, and then Neville out at night (while only taking 20 > from Draco). Dumbledore awarding Harry, Hermione and Ron 50 points each to > Gryffindor for their efforts to try and save the Stone was no more out of > line than McGonagall was in taking them away for being out of bed. Neville > did show bravery in trying to keep them from leaving the common room, but by > awarding him 10 points it also helped to redeem him from the 150 he helped > to loose on that fateful night. I'm not really sure why you would think > that the manner he handed them out was completely tactless. In the hospital > room, he told Harry that what had happened was a complete secret, so of > course the entire school knew. I really don't think it was a surprise to > the rest of the school (except maybe Slytherin) when he handed out the > points as he did. > ~Cathy~ I think Dumbledore was sending, or trying to send, a clear message to the entire school. Tis better to earn the points in honorable competition than to engineeer methods of costing the other team points. The Slytherins got so far ahead because Draco ratted on Harry, Hermione and Neville. Fair game, and hey, the Gryffs WERE out of bed. But guess what? Not all points are created equal. And as Cathy pointed out, Harry, Hermione and Neville were trying to help their friend. Harry, Ron and Hermione overcame obstacles set forward by their teachers. Think about that for a second. The most clever things a group of professors could come up with to protect a powerful magical device were no match at all for three first-years. The question is not whether 50 points each was out of line, but whether 50 points each was ENOUGH! As for Neville getting 10 points, you talk about positive reinforcement. Neville had not won so much as a point for Gryffindor. Not a single point. In the entire year. And now, thanks to bravery and honestly trying to do the right thing, he gets the points that puts Gryffindor over the top? Such things are what saves troubled youngsters and keeps them from giving up. The entire House Cup thing is interesting anyway. In PS/SS, it was a huge drama. In CS, it was acknowledged, with Harry and Ron getting 200 points each. In PoA, it was mentioned. In GoF, it went away because of Cedric's death. I really expect it to become even less important, if that's possible. Darrin -- Needs some good band names. From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sun May 4 17:40:37 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:40:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: <000001c31250$8e09dac0$2c100150@chris> References: <1052060528.5579.24985.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504123810.0322de28@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56934 Alison Williams recently mentioned: >That weird Lupin = James theory got me thinking. The main flaw in it - >and it looks like a big one to me - is why has Lupin/James not taken any >interest in Harry in the last 12 years? > >If there was such a switch isn't it much more plausible that Sirius was >the one James switched with? After all *he's* been locked up in Askaban >for the last 12 years. Very interesting, Alison - and it would also fit with Sirius wanting Harry to come live with him after he thought he was going to be proven innocent of having betrayed James and Lily. It would be nice to think that Harry's father is still alive and could be reunited with him. The only thought I have, though, is if they did somehow switch bodies, wouldn't James still retain his training and powers, rather than taking on Sirius'? And if that's the case, wouldn't James, regardless of what body he's in, turn into a stag when taking his Animagi form? I don't know how that would work.... Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sun May 4 17:25:20 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:25:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg Questions In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030504104907.00ef1a30@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504004849.01c03e38@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504122136.00b753a8@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56935 Troels Forchhammer recently mentioned: >At 00:52 04-05-03 -0500, Kriselda Jarnsaxa wrote: > >she won't be of any use as a Secret Keeper for Harry > >Might I inquire what secret she is supposed to keep for Harry? >It is obviously not his 'home' (Hagrid and the Weasleys have no >trouble finding Privet Drive 4), and I can't imagine any other >secret Harry is keeping either. > >She might of course be hiding some secret /from/ Harry - >something about his mother, perhaps. Oh, the person I was responding to had mentioned the theory that Mrs. Figg might be a Secret-Keeper for Harry, and I was just responding to that possibility. I've not finished GoF yet, so I dont know that much about Mrs. Figg or how plausible a theory her being a Secret-Keeper is... I was just working within the framework the original poster had set in their own comments. Sorry! Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sun May 4 17:19:29 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:19:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: <19c.1417b8c3.2be6120d@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504121237.03225c88@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56936 LeiaOS at aol.com recently mentioned: >In a message dated 5/3/2003 3:38:50 AM Central Standard Time, >SusanXG at hotmail.com writes: > > > 2) Why did Snape agree to be Lockhart's assistant for the Dueling Club? > Whas > > > > it because he wanted to show Lockhart up? Did he want to manipulate it so > > Malfoy would duel Harry? Did Dumbledore encourage Snape to participate? > > >My thought on this is that Snape knew what a complete egomaniacal fool >Lockhart was and thought assistance would ensure that students learn at least >some dueling skills. I sort of got the feeling he just wanted to put Lockhart in his place and show that he wasn't the incredibly great wizard he claimed he was. Snape strikes me as someone who feels he's been overlooked and underestimated for far too long and will do things just to prove he's the "better" wizard. I've also gotten the sense that this may have something to do with his enmity for Harry. Here he (Snape) is, this knowledgeable, powerful, great wizard, and everyone focuses their attention on a fool boy who's only *real* claim to fame is that he managed not to get killed. That this boy is the son of one of his rivals from when he was in school - another fool boy who managed to get more attention than he deserved - just makes it that much more irritating for Snape. I think Snape also sees Malfoy as sort of a younger version of himself - another talented and potentially powerful wizard who's getting overshadowed by a Potter, and that's why he tend to favour Malfoy as much as he does. Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gishdaydream at hotmail.com Sun May 4 16:01:35 2003 From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:01:35 -0000 Subject: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > I was at a Mankato, Minn. Barnes&Noble while I was gone on my trip > and I went to the Harry Potter section, thinking I'd get one of >the books on CD for the drive back (no, not at $50 a shot.) > > But anyway, I found a book by something called World Wizarding >Press, delving into the clues and theories of the books. -snip- >There was a REALLY novel theory there about Lupin, backed up by >some circumstantial evidence, but it does fit with the "WHOA!" kind >of twists we've come to demand. Not sure I believe it, but thought >it would be fun to put out there. > > Lupin IS James. > > The book speculated that, as an added precaution against >Voldemort, Lupin and James SWITCHED bodies. Lupin inside James was >killed while James inside Lupin lived. > > The theory is that there is something about the male line of >Potters that V-Mort must destroy, and therefore, must be protected >at all costs. > > James has been living inside Lupin all this time, suffering the > werewolf curse and generally shunning society. No one, not even D- > Dore, knows the truth. -snip- > There are a million holes, but again, kind of a nice twist, wouldn't you think? Commence shouting. > > Darrin > -- Twist and Shout would be a good name for a song... wait, never > mind. That is SO wild!! I have the EXACT same book. I absolutely LOVE it. I really like how they made some comments along the way that I was thinking when I was reading the book for the first time, without some of the little hints along the way. Anycrap, and I happen to agree with the books' (Wizarding World Press) their theory of Lupin being James. As far as Lupin knowing Harry's name and Harry not knowing how he knew it... I have a couple of theories... 1. could be that the kids were shouting it (someone already mentioned this, i know, in another post) and he's just not going to wait until he wakes up and be all like "My name is Professor Lupin what's yours?"... but as a Red Cross certified lifeguard there tends to be people around (the majority of the time) when someone passes out that happens to know that persons name... that way you can shake them and be like "Harry, Harry, are you all right? Can you hear me?" so that could have happened... and then 2. He really is James and recognized his son... or picked up on it from Hermione and Ron that this was his son... owing to the fact that he hasn't seen him since he was 1 years old (as far as the story tells us) and probably wouldn't recognize him as he should. 12 years can do a lot to a persons appearance. But yeah the book also mentions James' and Lily's wands and that Lily's wand was especially good for charm work. And she performed the switching charm without the knowledge of DD knowing or anyone else for that matter except for those 3, (Lupin, James and Lily). Another really crazy and stupid theory I've had for a short time, until I woke up and realized how dumb it was... James' wand is good for transfiguration... SO! (and this is REALLY out there so bear with me) I think he transfigured Lily into a cat... a.k.a. Crookshanks, (I know, sounds stupid) and then the person that was really Lily was actually a cat... and now Lily is Crookshanks... Ok ok... so I think I just read a little to far into the story. Even I think it's a bird brained idea. So yeah... I'm glad that I now know of someone else who was cool enought to get that book. Ever since I've purchased it I've had all these theories about EVERYTHING... ranging from "What's so cool about the color purple?" and "Why are body parts especially LONG fingers and crooked noses so darn important" I know JKR is telling us something but some of us just aren't picking up on the significance of it... oh well... That's enough for me for now... I'm starting to get dizzy, that and I have to get back to work. Ari. From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sun May 4 17:51:55 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:51:55 -0000 Subject: [was: Snape as DADA substitute) Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: <004a01c3125f$91232ae0$8d89560c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56938 I (Laura) said: Even if Harry, Ron, and Hermione deserved the points he gave them in PS/SS, the way Dumbledore handed them out was completely *tactless* in my humble opinion. And I adore Dumbledore, so it's hard for me to say so. The first time I read it, I was so excited and happy that Harry and the Gryffindors beat the big, bad Slytherins and got to rub it in their faces. But the more I read and the more immersed I became in the HP world, I began to resent that move. Everytime I read that scene, I cringe with the way Dumbledore handles it. Dumbledore is opened-minded, but everyone has their faults. Cathy responded: > > > My thought on this is that Dumbledore really knew the truth about Norbert the dragon and Harry & Hermione's efforts to help Hagrid (who else could have returned Harry's Invisibility Cloak to his dorm after being left on top of the Astronomy tower?). McGonagall had taken away 50 points each when she caught Harry, Hermione, and then Neville out at night (while only taking 20 from Draco). Dumbledore awarding Harry, Hermione and Ron 50 points each to Gryffindor for their efforts to try and save the Stone was no more out of line than McGonagall was in taking them away for being out of bed. Neville did show bravery in trying to keep them from leaving the common room, but by awarding him 10 points it also helped to redeem him from the 150 he helped to loose on that fateful night. I'm not really sure why you would think that the manner he handed them out was completely tactless. In the hospital room, he told Harry that what had happened was a complete secret, so of course the entire school knew. I really don't think it was a surprise to the rest of the school (except maybe Slytherin) when he handed out the points as he did. > > > Now me (Laura) again: I agree with you, especially about Dumbledore knowing about the dragon. But I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. The points were justified, but I think the way that Dumbledore handed them out was pretty rude. Think about it- you're a Slytherin, you've won the House Cup for 6,7,8 years running (forgive me, I don't remember). Here you are at the leaving feast, your house colors are hanging around the Great Hall, and you feel great. Suddnely Dumbledore comes in and says, "ah yes, I have some last minute points to hand out." And awards points to Harry, Ron, and Hermione. In fact, he gives them *just* enough to tie with you. Then he pulls, seemingly out of nowhere, an example of Neville standing up to his friends and awards him points for it. You've lost the Cup and the green and silver decorations on the walls have suddenly turned red and gold. *I'd* be pretty mad. I love Neville, and I think it's great that he got points and all...and it was a great boost of self-esteem for him. But I think the way that Dumbledore shot down the Slytherins just when they thought they had won was pretty tactless. Just my humble opinion, of course. But that's my story and I'm stickin to it. ;-) -Laura From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 4 18:15:54 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 18:15:54 -0000 Subject: Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504121237.03225c88@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56939 Kriselda wrote: Here he (Snape) is, this knowledgeable, powerful, > great wizard, and everyone focuses their attention on a fool boy who's only *real* claim to fame is that he managed not to get killed. Wellllll... considering that everyone else V-mort targeted HAD gotten killed by the exact same spell, it still is quite a feat, isn't it? And if Snape is so insecure as to feel threatened by a first-year who has been living with the Muggliest Muggles anyone has ever seen, then that says loads more about Snape's character than it does Harry's. > I think Snape also sees Malfoy as sort of a younger version of himself - > another talented and potentially powerful wizard who's getting overshadowed > by a Potter, and that's why he tend to favour Malfoy as much as he does. > Hold on there. Draco is rich, spoiled and pureblood. He's got enough money to be able to buy his way onto the House Quidditch team -- so he's going to be better off than any Weasley. He's constantly getting pampered by his parents, all those snacks from the Eagle Owl and the Quidditch brooms -- so he's got more of a home support system than Harry. He's pureblood, which, in the Fudge-run ministry, will get him hired faster, and treated better on the job than Hermione, who is more talented and smarter. Tell me again how Draco has it worse off and needs favoring? I know MY answer. Draco lacks what the Trio has, namely Ron's courage, Harry's skills, and Hermione's brains. So of course, he needs a leg up in the form of having a teacher take away points that he himself couldn't earn. Darrin -- I myself think Snape favors Draco so as to not blow his cover and really hates the little git. From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun May 4 18:49:10 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 13:49:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK... theory I read while I was gone References: Message-ID: <01c701c3126d$de9e7e10$ffa1cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 56940 Darrin wrote: Lupin IS James. The book speculated that, as an added precaution against Voldemort, Lupin and James SWITCHED bodies. Lupin inside James was killed while James inside Lupin lived. Richelle: I have the book you're talking about, though I'm not to that part yet. I have seen this theory before, though, on this group. And I didn't buy it then either. :) PoA, pg 68: "Are you all right, Harry?" Harry didn't ask how Prof. Lupin knew his name. So does Tom the bartender, Ollivander, and half the other people Harry meets. Page 140: "Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though he had made to grip Harry's shoulder..." A father wanting to touch his son? A man still wanting to deal with his own grief at having lost a close friend and wishing he could do something to help Harry through it. Pg 195: Lupin looked "both shaken and pleased" over Harry's Patronus, which we later find out was a stag. First time he'd seen the stag that was James (and his good friend) in a very long time. And considering James had become an animagus because of him, it's understandable pge 260: "the possibilities were endless now that we could all transform" Why wouldn't Lupin say "they" transform. Again, I think it's a touch weak, but there you go. Because Lupin knew that James, Sirius, and Peter would never (at least at such a young age) bothered to learn to transform if it hadn't been so they could be with him when he transformed. So Lupin was the first to transform, and once the others learned, "we" could all transform. Not just "them." Besides all of that, there's nothing in any of the HP books that ever implies that two people could switch bodies. That, and JKR said a live James and Lily would never be seen. And if Lupin were really James he'd have already been seen. Oh, and there's the priori incantatum thing. There's never a real explanation of whether it's the echo of the body killed or the soul killed that is seen, but we did see James' echo. And he acted like Harry's father to me. There was nothing said in that scene that implied he wasn't really James. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 4 18:52:34 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [was: Snape as DADA substitute) Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030504185234.90572.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56941 --- Laura wrote: > The > points were justified, but I think the way that > Dumbledore handed > them out was pretty rude. > > But I think > the way that Dumbledore shot down the > Slytherins just when they > thought they had won was pretty tactless. Lynn: I can see your point and really feel for those in Slytherin who worked hard to earn points and did it the honorable way. But (you knew there was going to be a but didn't you?) on the other hand, this may just give them the incentive to pressure their fellow Slytherins to work for their points instead of working to get others to lose them. It could also just get them to hate the Gryffindors if they don't already. Nasty little tattletale that Draco. You know all the Slytherins had to know it was him who got Gryffindor to lose all those points. And, in point of fact, had Draco not done that and Dumbledore hadn't awarded points, Slytherin would still have won by 20 points or even 40 as Draco wouldn't have lost that extra 20. There may be some who have figured all of that out. Also, Dumbledore may in fact have been pointing out that even when you think you've won (as Draco now thinks since Voldemort's back), it's not over 'til it's over and no one should celebrate too quickly. Perhaps Dumbledore was preparing students for the doing what is right not what is easy by showing the students that even if doing right brings negative consequences, it can also bring rewards. Besides, everything that happens bad with Harry ends up being huge school news and Harry is left to deal with the negative of that. There has to be times when the positive is just as prominent. Dumbledore doesn't strike me as someone who would purposely be tactless. He always seems to have a reason. We just may not yet know what the reason is in this case. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 4 18:41:06 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:41:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK... theory I read while I was gone References: <20030504154038.89463.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004301c3126c$bc835f40$16886750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56942 --- darrin wrote: > > Lupin IS James. > Lupin's distrust of Sirius still fits, and when > he finds out Sirius > wasn't the betrayer, his relief does as well. > Lynn: I've got an uncorrected proof of this book and yes, it does come up with some very interesting theories. Sometimes I think they stretch a bit too far to support their theories but hey, in JKR's world it might not be that big a stretch. I think this theory is a stretch but it does depend on the interpretation of events. The thing that doesn't fit for me is if Lupin is James, why he would still distrust Sirius. James would have known that Pettigrew was the secret keeper and not Sirius. I don't see Lily and Lupin making that kind of decision without informing James of the change and I don't see James not doing anything to help Sirius or try to find Pettigrew after. Izaskun writes: We're forgeting something extremely important. This theory can't be taken in consideration because we see the real James Potter: "Your father's coming..." she said quietly. "He wants to see you.. It will be all right... hold on..." And he came... first his head, then his body.. tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed from the end of Voldemort's wand. So, no chance Lupin is James. CHeers. Izaskun __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 4 18:23:19 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (hagrid) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:23:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK... theory I read while I was gone References: <3.0.6.32.20030504234047.015c8e50@10.0.0.3> Message-ID: <002701c3126a$3ea65f70$16886750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 56943 Pauline wrote: James should have known who the secret keeper was, even if he and Lupin had switched bodies. Izaskun answers: yes, and even if he didn't know, he would have informed Dumbledore straight away that he was James, or at least he would have done something to prevent Black entering the castle. After all, everyone thought he was after his son. I don't buy this swiching places theory, it's full of contradictions. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Sun May 4 19:28:22 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:28:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg Questions Message-ID: <3EB569D6.84E14687@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56944 > At 00:52 04-05-03 -0500, Kriselda Jarnsaxa wrote: > >she won't be of any use as a Secret Keeper for Harry > > Might I inquire what secret she is supposed to keep for Harry? > It is obviously not his 'home' (Hagrid and the Weasleys have no > trouble finding Privet Drive 4), and I can't imagine any other > secret Harry is keeping either. > I have a different interpretation of "secret keeper" than others on the list. I don't think that having a secret keeper keeps you hidden from *everyone*. Otherwise, how would Lily have gone to the market? :-) I think a secret keeper keeps you hidden from who you want to be hidden from, and everyone else can see you. Don't have the book in front of me, but isn't there a quote about Voldemort looking in the windows and not being able to see the Potters? I doesn't say that they are hidden from view, just from him. Now, I'm not so sure about Arabella being a secret keeper. I think there's something else entirely going on with Harry, the "ancient magic" that DD talked about, and JKR hasn't explained how it works yet. Remember in GoF, Voldemort stated that he couldn't get Harry at the Dursleys, and didn't dare try at the QWC, with all of the MoM wizards around. This implies that Harry's safety while he's with his relatives has something to do with the Dursleys, or at least their house on Privet Drive. Again, no book in front of me, but that's the gist of it. My two knuts... Pat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmeec316 at aol.com Sun May 4 18:07:13 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (pennstgrle) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 18:07:13 -0000 Subject: OK... theory I read while I was gone/Mrs. Figgs cats In-Reply-To: <000001c31250$8e09dac0$2c100150@chris> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56945 Alison wrote: > That weird Lupin = James theory got me thinking. The main flaw in it - > and it looks like a big one to me - is why has Lupin/James not taken any > interest in Harry in the last 12 years? > > If there was such a switch isn't it much more plausible that Sirius was > the one James switched with? After all *he's* been locked up in Askaban > for the last 12 years..... I want to start out by saying I love your theory that James and Sirius switched :-D And this could be the reason why the secret keeper was switched--you wouldn't want Voldemort and Co. chasing down and capturing Sirius if Sirius was in fact James! (Oh my mind is racing with this thought! Because that would mean that the real Sirius sacrificed his life for James and Harry....and maybe they did this because they DID know that either Lupin or Pettigrew was the spy...and maybe DD DOES know that all of this happened but thought the safest place for James would be Azkaban--because who would EVER think to look for James there?? And that's why they didn't increase security measures at Hogwarts too drastically when Sirius/James escaped....) Oh, I need to stop! I usually don't get so carried away with far- fetched theories....but this IS Harry Potter...and you never know what to expect.... Now back to the question of why Lupin/James isn't interested in Harry before PoA....My related question is: why isn't Lupin as just plain Lupin more interested in Harry before PoA???? I mean...James was one of his best friends! If I were Lupin I would want to know how my dead friend's son is fairing in life--especially with the special circumstances surrounding Harry! My guess is that Dumbledore wanted Harry to grow up the way he did. (I really believe he would have interfered if otherwise.) And probably wanted the wizarding world to keep away--let Harry be...for safety purposes, and developmental purposes. (I couldn't imagine trying to explain all that happened to Harry to a 4- or 5- or 6-year- old, etc. Dumbledore was wise to wait until Harry could understand the circumstances. And then to let him) I also want to believe that Lupin, McGonagall, the old gang, etc., DID keep interest in Harry and were given updates on Harry's well- being....and maybe even transfigured themselves into, say, cats to go have a look at him, check and see how he's doing :-D And that could be why Mrs. Figg shows Harry the pictures of cats all the time--those cats are the people that care about him--his support system...kinda like a family/friend photo album. ~J Who really should be studying for finals and not reading HPfGU...But can't help it because OoP will be here before we know it!...And this thought keeps diverting her attention away from neurobiology amd all other related subjects :-P From megalynn44 at hotmail.com Sun May 4 19:37:55 2003 From: megalynn44 at hotmail.com (Meghan .) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 15:37:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56946 --- Laura wrote: > The > points were justified, but I think the way that > Dumbledore handed > them out was pretty rude. > > But I think > the way that Dumbledore shot down the > Slytherins just when they > thought they had won was pretty tactless. I have never commented on this subject even though it comes up repeatedly, basically because I don't have too much to say. However, the debate on the last minute points won't seem to die so I will throw in my 2 knuts. I never saw Dumbledore awarding points in such a dramatic fashion as a way to knock down the Slytherins. I saw it as a way to deeply impress upon the entire school the importance of waht Harry, Ron, and Hermione had done. He(dumbledore) knew that the war against Voldemort was not yet over, and the very children in that hall would probly have to make some decisions in the future and go through hardships because of Voldemort. If he had just given the points in private the impact would have been much less for not just the Slytherins, but the entire school. Megalynn _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From flamingstarchows at att.net Sun May 4 19:33:38 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 14:33:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK... theory I read while I was gone References: <01c701c3126d$de9e7e10$ffa1cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: <004701c31274$1c9f15c0$f809570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 56947 ----- Original Message ----- Richelle: I have the book you're talking about, though I'm not to that part yet. I have seen this theory before, though, on this group. And I didn't buy it then either. :) PoA, pg 68: "Are you all right, Harry?" Harry didn't ask how Prof. Lupin knew his name. ----Me---- Why would he? *Everyone* knows Harry. Harry has had strangers approach him on the street before he ever found out he was a wizard. Certainly it was not unreasonable to assume that a professor would know him on sight. ~Cathy~ From Lynx412 at aol.com Sun May 4 20:01:36 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:01:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK... theory I read while I was gone Message-ID: <118.22eca1dd.2be6cba0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56948 Richelle: I have the book you're talking about, though I'm not to that part yet. I have seen this theory before, though, on this group. And I didn't buy it then either. :) PoA, pg 68: "Are you all right, Harry?" Harry didn't ask how Prof. Lupin knew his name. ~Cathy~ Why would he? *Everyone* knows Harry. Harry has had strangers approach him on the street before he ever found out he was a wizard. Certainly it was not unreasonable to assume that a professor would know him on sight. Cheryl the Lynx... I think the answer lies in the most common comment about Harry...that he looks very much like his father, with his mother's eyes. So, here is one of James' best friends from school, who would have known James from when James was Harry's age, who sees a boy who looks almost exactly like James at that age, with *green* eyes and a lightning-bolt shaped scar on his forehead. I'd have been *very* surprised if Lupin hadn't recognized Harry. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at aol.com Sun May 4 20:14:53 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:14:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Riddle Wanted Message-ID: <3e.2f1648eb.2be6cebd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56949 Thanks, Lynn, that's kinda what I meant. I don't think the MOM made the connection or that it was even monitoring the situation. Dumbledore makes the comment that very few people knew that TMR had become Voldemort. TMR came to Hogwarts from a muggle orphanage after all, with no supposed family. Surely the authorities of the orphanage or UK social services might have made an effort to locate the infant's family and place him with them if it was known he had some still living. So, three muggles with the same surname as a current student at Hogwarts die over the summer break...and I have always assumed, possible a misreading, that the slayings occurred while TMR was still at school...why would the MOM believe that the heroic model student who had halted the attacks was behind them. Why would the MOM even believe that TMR, still a student, was even capable of casting not just one but *three* sucessful AKs? Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sun May 4 20:13:18 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:13:18 -0000 Subject: Neville/Memory Charms In-Reply-To: <001001c311fc$eb9dbd40$8accaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56950 Memory charms? Did someone say *memory charm?* ;-) Well, the only thing I like better than a chance to discuss memory charms is a chance to discuss them with some *Neville* thrown in! Kelley wrote: > First, I was thinking about how some people were wondering just >how old Neville was when the Longbottoms were tortured. I had >always assumed he was an infant like Harry, Me, too! I figure Neville was a toddler, perhaps around 15 months when his parents were tortured. Two years old, tops. Oh, yes, it is true that some people want to make him 3 or older and capable of speech. But I think he was left alive because his parents' attackers didn't believe him to be a threat. Kelley: >Then I got to thinking that his parents were found alive and their >tormentors were captured, so the DE's didn't get to finish their dirty deeds. Maybe there's another reason the Pensieve Four didn't kill the Longbottoms outright. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't want the Dark Mark to appear over the Longbottoms' house, see. > Later, we see Crouch Jr.'s trial for the torture of the >Longbottoms. Harry places his age at around 19. So this trial >would then have had to be 3-5 years after the first batch, giving a >little bit of leeway for age miscalculations on both ends. If this >is the case, Neville was anywhere between 4-7 years old. Let's say >5 just for the fun of it. This would be long enough after all >the post-war trials that the WW would have been feeling safe. This >would also make Neville old enough to be able to remember what >transpired if he was actually at home at the time, and not > with his Gran. Oh, I dunno, Kelley. I dunno. See, I always figured that Voldemort's empire folded like a napkin once he was reduced to a garlic-scented fume. "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe." So if Voldemort falls in October 1981, I'm figuring the Pensieve Four torture the Longbottoms right away, perhaps even before 1982 starts. This makes Neville quite young indeed, I'm thinking. >Here's a scenario. He's home at that time and hears (and perhaps > sees) everything. But . . . but why would MoM care about little Neville and his pathetic little nightmares. The Longbottoms' attack caused a "wave of fury." There was "great pressure" to catch the culprits. So why would MoM mess around with some tyke's memory when there are wicked DEs who will stop at nothing, still running around loose. I'll tell you why. They put a *Reverse Memory Charm* on Neville! This helps him finger the Pensieve Four, although he would otherwise be too young! Nevilee's a *hero,* see! Yeah. Just 48 days until I'm proven right! ;-) Cindy -- who still hasn't ordered OoP From andie at knownet.net Sun May 4 20:18:05 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:18:05 -0000 Subject: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: <000001c31250$8e09dac0$2c100150@chris> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56951 I have heard of this Lupin = James theory many times, and it was in a book I just finished as well (which I assume is the same book several of you mentioned in prior posts). While I do see some evidence that this is possible, my main problem with this (and it always has been) is the fact that Lupin (as James) would know of Sirius' innocence. Wouldn't James himself know that they had changed to Peter as the Secret Keeper? Lupin does not believe in Sirius' innocence until the Shrieking Shack scene, so this just doesn't go with the Lupin is James theory. I think that if Lupin really was James, he would have gone to the ministry long before now to explain that Peter was the Potter's Secret Keeper, not Sirius. In fact, as some of you have mentioned, I do think that Sirius acts more like a father to Harry than anyone. Of course, he certainly is the closest that Harry has to an actual father, so that could be the explanation... or there could be something more to it. grindieloe From andie at knownet.net Sun May 4 20:23:00 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:23:00 -0000 Subject: Neville/Memory Charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56952 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: Memory charms? Did someone say *memory charms?* ;-) Wouldn't it just serve Malfoy right if Neville's memory charm could somehow be broken, without harming Neville of course, and Neville is then able to reveal that Lucious Malfoy was also responsible for torturing the Longbottoms? Hmmm... Lucious certainly does have a good reason for giving large sums of money to St.Mungos. grindieloe From Chasewildstar at attbi.com Sun May 4 17:51:43 2003 From: Chasewildstar at attbi.com (Chase Wildstar) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 13:51:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The real worst teacher at Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <002301c31265$d359f230$9c01f50c@mac> No: HPFGUIDX 56953 ----- Original Message ----- From: "darrin_burnett" > Now that Lockhart is gone, the real worst teacher at Hogwarts is > Trelawney! > > Here are her sins. > 3) You think Snape was mean to Hermione? (Well, yeah, he was, the > slimy git) Trelawney's response to having her predictions challenged > is to tell Hermione "I don't think you have the gift." > > That's equivalent to a language teacher who has been caught not > knowing what he or she is talking about saying "well, you don't have > the aptitude for language." Now that the pre-requesit editing is done, I can get on with my comments. Telling a student that they do not have the "gift" or aptitude for something is not being mean at all. Its not being unprofessional either. Why allow a student to struggle thru something they have no hope of ever mastering? Isn't it better to let them know that they MIGHT be wasting their time, and MIGHT want to invest such time in something else that they may have a better apitutude for? Hey, I suck at ENGLISH and lanugage.. but I excel at Math and Science. If my english teacher (years ago) told me not to pursue a carreer in litiature, I would have laughed and told her that I had NO intention. I like to read, and I read a lot of books. But I hate writting a half page paragraph about what ONE, 9 word sentance is about. THat to me, is just plain stupid. And thats what we had to do in English class.. talk about a waste of time. Chase Wildstar From heidit at netbox.com Sun May 4 20:53:09 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:53:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56954 Megalynn wrote: ** If he had just given the points in private the impact would have been much less for not just the Slytherins, but the entire school.** True, but if he had given the points at any time in the days prior, it would have been much less humiliating for the Slytherins, who were enough ahead that even if Harry, Hermione and Neville hadn't lost points the night of the dragon incident, Slytherin would've still been tops. We know from GoF, at least, that it is traditional and expected for the hall to be decorated before the students enter for the feast, so Slytherin was only doing what was traditional in having or enjoying the green bunting - why did those 250ish students - some of them only 11 - deserve to have this victory taken from them by Dumbledore's machinations?(I would call it a deus ex machina if I thought Dumbledore was godlike, but I don't) It was a slap to the students in the house who'd worked for their points, and it taught them that people in power can play games with what they've led you to believe you've rightfully earned. Setting aside whether that's true, is it really a fair lesson? Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sun May 4 21:39:08 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:39:08 -0000 Subject: Neville/Memory Charms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56955 Grindieloe wrote: > Wouldn't it just serve Malfoy right if Neville's memory charm >could somehow be broken, without harming Neville of course, and >Neville is then able to reveal that Lucious Malfoy was also >responsible for torturing the Longbottoms? Hmmm... Lucious >certainly does have a good reason for giving large sums of money to >St.Mungos. Ooooh, Lucius Malfoy as the Root Of All Evil, huh? Now, where are Eileen and Elkins when I need them? Never mind. We know that Mr. and Mrs. Lestrange probably participated in the Longbottoms' torture, and young Barty Crouch was probably there too. That leaves us with the mysterious fourth man in the Pensieve. Could that fourth man have been Lucius Malfoy? Oh, I would dearly love for this theory to work, but alas, I can't make the pieces fit. I think Harry would have recognized Lucius Malfoy had he been one of the Pensieve Four defendants. So why *does* Lucius Malfoy give large sums to St. Mungos, though? I mean, why *St. Mungos,* of all places? Makes me wonder if OoP will have St. Mungos as one of the primary settings . . . Makes me wonder if Neville's frequent visits there will be important . . . Makes me wonder about a certain *toad* . . . Cindy -- still convinced Mundungus Fletcher is a doctor at St. Mungos From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sun May 4 21:35:20 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:35:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <002301c31265$d359f230$9c01f50c@mac> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504161926.00b68430@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56956 Chase Wildstar recently mentioned: >Telling a student that they do not have the "gift" or aptitude for something >is not being mean at all. But if it's to be done, it should be done in private, and not in such a manner as to sound like the teacher is upset because the student insulted her. >Its not being unprofessional either. Why allow a student to struggle thru >something they have no hope of ever mastering? It's hard to tell that, though, from just a few lessons. I've had subjects I took where, for the first several weeks of the class, I could have easily been described as hopeless, but then something would just "click" in and I'd be understand it. >Isn't it better to let them know that they MIGHT be wasting their time, and >MIGHT want to invest such time in something else that they may have a >better apitutude >for? Possibly, but discouragement at such an early stage of learning, and done in such a humiliating way, can be a great deal more damaging than taking a student aside and offering a gentle suggestion of a better direction to go.... Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 4 22:26:05 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:26:05 -0000 Subject: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56957 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gishstar1" wrote: > > "What's so cool about the color purple?" Because Purple IS cool -- that's real life, not Potterverse. > "Why are body parts especially LONG fingers and crooked noses so > darn important" Phallic symbols? Actually, I think the long fingers and crooked noses are like the robes, pointy hats, broomsticks, and Dumbledore's long beard: cliches of modern fantasy that everyone in the general public recognizes. Even people who never read fantasy books understand the bearded guy with the star-spangled robe and pointy hat, whether he appears in the comic strip "The Wizard of Id" or in a political cartoon. From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 4 22:39:39 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:39:39 -0000 Subject: Kappa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gina R Rosich wrote: << I always thought that Snape knows what it says in the book, but is making a point that the book is actually wrong. Surely, we?ve all found an occasion where a book says something that turns out to be incorrect. >> While I have experienced textbooks (and test answers!) that were wrong, I don't think this is one of those cases. Snape said: "That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia.... " and I wondered whether kappa had perhaps overrun Mongolia like rabbits overrun Australia, thus being more *common* in Mongolia than in their native place. Their native place, however, IS Japan. I know that because kappa are real -- at least, they are real Japanese folklore here in the Muggle real world. They're very fond of cucumber,which is why the sushi roll with cucumber (and fake crab, right?) in it is called a Kappa maka = Kappa roll. They have a depression on top of their head which is filled with water (they live in streams and rivers) and lose all their strength if the depression empties of water. So if you are menaced to a kappa, bow to it. Politeness requires that it then bow to you. Then the water falls off their head and they get all weak and you can run away while the kappa is refilling the water on its head. From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sun May 4 21:17:33 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:17:33 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > Megalynn wrote: > ** If he had just given > the points in private the impact would have been much less for not just the > Slytherins, but the entire school.** Heidi replied: > True, but if he had given the points at any time in the days prior, it would have been much less humiliating for the Slytherins, who were enough ahead that even if Harry, Hermione and Neville hadn't lost points the night of the dragon incident, Slytherin would've still been tops. Linda: It's true that Slytherin would have been on top even if Gryfindor still had the 150 points that HHR lost with Norbert. I believe this was mentioned in an earlier post at well but I can't recall by whom. Anyway, there is one factor involved that I havn't seen addressed. If HHR had not gone to retreive the sourceror's / philosopher's stone how many points could they possibly gotten from the last quidditch match of the season. In the aftermath of theirlittle adventure Harry was unconcious in the hospital wing and therefore missed the last qudditch match of the season. Paraphrasing SS-You missed the last match of the season and we got flattened without you. I realize that this doesn't address the way in which DD awarded the points but I think that it does relate to the amount of points given. -Linda From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sun May 4 22:28:42 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:28:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Questions concerning Snape and Lucius In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504121237.03225c88@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030504164350.00bc53f0@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 56960 darrin_burnett recently mentioned: >Kriselda wrote: > > Here he (Snape) is, this knowledgeable, powerful, > > great wizard, and everyone focuses their attention on a fool boy >who's only *real* claim to fame is that he managed not to get killed. > >Wellllll... considering that everyone else V-mort targeted HAD gotten >killed by the exact same spell, it still is quite a feat, isn't it? Just to clarify - the tone I was taking there was from what I think Snape's perspective might be - not what I think of Harry, but how I think Snape sees him. Harry's survival was certainly miraculous, but from how I perceive Snape, he probably doesn't believe that it resulted from something *Harry* did - he sees Harry as the beneficiary of either great luck, or something his parents did that allowed him to survive. As a result, I think Snape sees Harry as someone who is famous without actually having *done* anything to deserve it - and resents it greatly, given his own high opinion of himself and his abilities. Snape likely feels that he has accomplished more, knows more, has greater abilities and deserves considerable recognition, and yet everyone's always fussing over Harry, letting him break the rules (and often praising him for the results) and acting like he's some kind of Wizarding "royalty" or something. >And if Snape is so insecure as to feel threatened by a first-year who >has been living with the Muggliest Muggles anyone has ever seen, then >that says loads more about Snape's character than it does Harry's. Yes, it does >Hold on there. Draco is rich, spoiled and pureblood. > >He's got enough money to be able to buy his way onto the House >Quidditch team -- so he's going to be better off than any Weasley. > >He's constantly getting pampered by his parents, all those snacks >from the Eagle Owl and the Quidditch brooms -- so he's got more of a >home support system than Harry. > >He's pureblood, which, in the Fudge-run ministry, will get him hired >faster, and treated better on the job than Hermione, who is more >talented and smarter. > >Tell me again how Draco has it worse off and needs favoring? Draco has a lot of advantages, but what I think Snape sees is a talented, knowledgeable student from a powerful Wizarding family who is constantly being overshadowed by this "wizard-come-lately" who knew nothing about magic before he came to Hogwarts, and who can't seem to get a "leg up" in the competition between them. Draco buys his way onto the house team and supplies the whole team with better brooms, but Harry and the Gryffendors beat them anyway. No matter what Draco does, Harry comes out the better. For Snape, I think he feels Draco is being just as mistreated as he (Snape) is - neither is getting the recognition they think they deserve, so Snape has sort of appointed himself as Draco's patron - he's going to help Draco out where he can, whether its by going a bit easy on him in class or doing what he can to knock Harry down a few pegs. >I know MY answer. Draco lacks what the Trio has, namely Ron's >courage, Harry's skills, and Hermione's brains. So of course, he >needs a leg up in the form of having a teacher take away points that >he himself couldn't earn. I, personally, agree, but I don't think that's how Snape sees it.... >Darrin >-- I myself think Snape favors Draco so as to not blow his cover and >really hates the little git. That's possible, too :) Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 00:13:26 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 00:13:26 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <002301c31265$d359f230$9c01f50c@mac> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56961 Chase wrote: > > > Now that the pre-requesit editing is done, I can get on with my comments. > > Telling a student that they do not have the "gift" or aptitude for something > is not being mean at all. > Its not being unprofessional either. Why allow a student to struggle thru > something they have no hope > of ever mastering? > Isn't it better to let them know that they MIGHT be wasting their time, and > MIGHT want to > invest such time in something else that they may have a better apitutude > for? > Hey, I suck at ENGLISH and lanugage.. but I excel at Math and Science. > If my english teacher (years ago) told me not to pursue a carreer in > litiature, I would have laughed and told her that I had NO intention. I like > to read, and I read a lot of books. But I hate writting a half page > paragraph about what ONE, 9 word sentance is about. THat to me, is just > plain stupid. > And thats what we had to do in English class.. talk about a waste of time. > > Chase Wildstar IF Trelawney was simply trying to give Hermione a break by letting her know that she was wasting her time, then fine. But Terlawney's comments came just after Hermione challenged her in class. A teacher responds to an intellectual challenge by saying, "Sorry, my dear, you just don't have it?" Nope. Not good teaching. Just spiteful. And considering that Trelawney has two correct predictions in her entire tenure at Hogwarts, I'm not sure Trelawney "has" it. At least Snape and Hagrid KNOW something about the subject they teach. Trelawney is Snape without the knowledge and Hagrid without the decency. The worst teacher at Hogwarts since Lockhart, and even HE had been awarded best smile five years running. :) Darrin -- Lockhart is one character I could do without returning From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 00:23:17 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 00:23:17 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56962 Heidi wrote: > We know from GoF, at least, that it is traditional and expected for the hall to be decorated before the students enter for the feast, so Slytherin was only doing what was traditional in having or enjoying the green bunting - why did those 250ish students - some of them only 11 - deserve to have this victory taken from them by Dumbledore's machinations?(I would call it a deus ex machina if I thought Dumbledore was godlike, but I don't) > > It was a slap to the students in the house who'd worked for their points, and it taught them that people in power can play games with what they've led you to believe you've rightfully earned. > > Setting aside whether that's true, is it really a fair lesson? > > Here is the attitude of the Slytherins, as expressed on page 179 in PS (UK version) Just after Harry, Hermione and Neville lose 150 points over Norbert and they are hated by all, except the Slyths. "Everywhere Harry went, people pointed and didn't trouble to lower their voices as they insulted him. Slytherins, on the other hand, clapped as he walked past them, whistling and cheering, 'Thanks Potter, we owe you one.'" Hey, the way I look at it, if their main game plan was to rely on Potter screwing up -- or engineering it, as the case of Draco ratting on them -- then they shouldn't cry too loudly when Potter does something that earns points. And as has been pointed out, had Harry not been actively involved in working to keep Voldemort from getting ahold of the device that would have brought him back to life, he'd have been able to play Quidditch and would have earned points. Again, Dumbledore was sending the message that it is better to EARN points for your own house than to plot ways of making other houses lose points. He's also sending the message that Ron and Neville's courage, Hermione's cleverness and Harry's honor are worth more than Draco's cunning. Darrin From flamingstarchows at att.net Mon May 5 00:40:33 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:40:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS References: Message-ID: <002a01c3129e$f0daa6e0$351c570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 56963 Linda wrote: It's true that Slytherin would have been on top even if Gryfindor still had the 150 points that HHR lost with Norbert. ----Me---- I guess someone is going to have to explain the math to me as to why Slytherin would have won even with the 150 points that Harry, Hermione, and Neville lost. When Dumbledore awarded the points at the banquet, the 150 he gave Ron, Hermione, and Harry *tied* them with Slytherin. It was the 10 he gave Neville that sent them over the top. So, if they had not lost the 150 in the Norbert incident they would have been tied. If McGonagall had taken 50 from Draco as she did the other three, Gryfindor would have defeated Slytherin. ~~Cathy~~ From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Mon May 5 01:08:54 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:08:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: <002a01c3129e$f0daa6e0$351c570c@pavilion> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56964 Linda wrote: It's true that Slytherin would have been on top even if Gryfindor still had the 150 points that HHR lost with Norbert. Cathy wrote: I guess someone is going to have to explain the math to me as to why Slytherin would have won even with the 150 points that Harry, Hermione, and Neville lost. When Dumbledore awarded the points at the banquet, the 150 he gave Ron, Hermione, and Harry *tied* them with Slytherin. It was the 10 he gave Neville that sent them over the top. So, if they had not lost the 150 in the Norbert incident they would have been tied. If McGonagall had taken 50 from Draco as she did the other three, Gryfindor would have defeated Slytherin. Bill: Mcgonagall also took 20 points from Slytherin for Draco's role in the same incident that cost Gryffindor 150 points. So if it had never happened, Slytherin would have won by 10 points, absent other points scored. Bill From meboriqua at aol.com Mon May 5 01:10:18 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:10:18 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Now that Lockhart is gone, the real worst teacher at Hogwarts is Trelawney! > > Here are her sins. > > 1) Completely unprofessional to tell a student at the beginning of > each school year that he or she will die. Unprofessional for two > reasons. One, duh, it's a horrible thing to say to a young person. > Two, unless someone ACTUALLY dies, you basically show that you're a > fraud, every year. > > 2) For all of the griping - actually it's from ONE person :P - about > Hagrid's closeness to the Trio, Trelawney has developed similar > relationships with Lavender and Parvati. > > 3) You think Snape was mean to Hermione? (Well, yeah, he was, the > slimy git) Trelawney's response to having her predictions challenged > is to tell Hermione "I don't think you have the gift."> I have to agree with Darrin here. Trelawney sucks. She seems far more interested in putting on a show for her students than in actually teaching them. Her dramatic entrances, her gasps and little shrieks, her dire warnings of doom and gloom... she should have been an actress. I particularly hated when she told Neville (notice she doesn't say it to Ron or someone who clearly doesn't adore or fear her) that terrible things would happen if he revealed what was on their final. Why she couldn't have simply said "You will be punished if you share the contents of the final with your classmates" is beyond me. It's almost as if even she knows her class is a joke. I don't even have much faith in Trelawney as a Seer. For someone who believes in everything from tea leaves to the stars, she is mighty close-minded about her predictions. You'd think she'd be aware of that fact that some Seers enter trances and have trouble remembering their predictions, but she instead accuses Harry of lying. What good are her talents if she doesn't even know she has them? I adore Hermione for having the chutzpah to walk out of her class. Hermione had the logical foresight to see :-) that her time in Trelawney's class was being wasted. No psychic ability is needed to sense that. --jenny from ravenclaw *************************** From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Mon May 5 01:12:06 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:12:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56966 Bill: Mcgonagall also took 20 points from Slytherin for Draco's role in the same incident that cost Gryffindor 150 points. So if it had never happened, Slytherin would have won by 10 points, absent other points scored. Correction: They would have won by 20 points, not 10. Bill From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 5 01:12:56 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Random Thoughts Message-ID: <20030505011256.61582.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56967 While lying down trying to get rid of a pounding headache, the following questions came to mind and just made me say Hmmmmm. 1. Now that Percy is working, is he paying his parents room and board? Is that why he thinks everyone in the house has to be very quiet and why he doesn't have to share his room in GoF? (Yea, yea, I know what Ron says about why Percy doesn't have to share his room.) 2. At what age do wizards move out from mummy and daddy's and get their own place? 3. Are there special wizard realtors or do wizards have to deal with Muggle realtors when they want to buy a house? 4. Why didn't Bill, Charlie or Mr. Weasley lend Ron their dress robes for the Yule Ball? Even a bit big, it would have been better than what Ron had to wear. I'm assuming Fred and George were wearing Bill and Charlie's old ones. 5. Why do the Weasleys keep buying the textbooks second hand when the older kids could just pass down their books? 6. How powerful a wizard do you have to be in order to snap your fingers and have ropes fly out and bind someone as Quirrell does in PS? 7. Why did Hermione lie about going after the troll? Was she supposed to have a pass to go to the toilet, didn't have one and thought that was worse? 8. If Quirrell got through to the Philosopher's Stone, how come everything was able to reset somehow, except the troll? 9. Why didn't Harry just tell Quirrell what he had previously seen in the Mirror of Erised, his parents, instead of making something else up? 10. Why did Lucius Malfoy have no choice but to leave when Dooby told him too? Is an elves finger the equivalent of a wizard's wand? 11. Was Harry able to throw off the Imperious Curse put on him by Voldemort so easily because they are connected by the curse that failed? Because, as Dumbledore has surmised, Voldemort transferred some of himself to Harry? 12. How were Crouch, Jr. and Wormtail able to get past Moody's foe detectors so easily that they were able to get into his house and overpower him, granted, after a struggle? 13. Why didn't anyone do the Priori Incantatem spell on Sirius's wand to find out if he was the one who had cast the spell that blew up the street? Why didn't he suggest that when he was arrested? 14. What happened to Wormtail's wand? Was he able to carry it down into the sewer in his mouth? 15. Didn't it strike the MoM strange that Pettigrew's robes were intact but the spell was powerful enough to disintegrate everything but a finger? And why didn't the finger disintegrate as well? 16. Why does Snape have an apparent phobia about washing his hair? 17. Why didn't everyone eventually get a trial after the downfall of Voldemort? Are there still people in Azkaban who have never had a trial? 18. Why would there still be a wizarding contract for Harry if he didn't put his name into the Goblet of Fire? 19. Just how much whiskey did the Beauxbaton horses drink per day and did there need to be a distillery working full-time to supply them? 20. Can Dementors be killed? If they can, why hasn't someone gotten rid of those nasty things by now? Do Dementors have any positive purpose at all? Lynn (stopping here before she asks the really weird questions) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 5 01:28:40 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505012840.17578.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56968 > Cathy wrote: > > I guess someone is going to have to explain the > math to me as to why > Slytherin would have won even with the 150 > points that Harry, > Hermione, and Neville lost. When Dumbledore > awarded the points at > the banquet, the 150 he gave Ron, Hermione, and > Harry *tied* them > with Slytherin. Lynn: Actually Dumbledore awarded Harry 60 points, not 50. Gryffindor had 312 points and Slytherin had 472 points. So, if no points had been lost by Harry, Hermione, Neville and Draco over Norbert, and Dumbledore hadn't awarded any points, Gryffindor would have only had 462 points whereas Slytherin would have had 492 points. So, even with awarding Neville 10 points, Slytherin would have won by 20 points. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 5 01:34:44 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505013444.98057.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56969 --- jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > > I don't even have much faith in Trelawney as a > Seer. What good > are her talents if she doesn't even know she > has them? Lynn: Actually, I think it's great that she doesn't remember she has true predictions. Can you imagine how different those predictions would end up if Trelawney was the one repeating them? Also, she was so disappointed when Harry, in his final exam in PoA, said that Buckbeak would live and fly away. I wonder how she graded Harry when she found out Buckbeak didn't die? Lynn (who thinks Trelawneys predictions of students dying aren't fake - they will die some day unless they become immortal LOL) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From gandharvika at hotmail.com Mon May 5 01:48:13 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:48:13 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Harry, You're A Wizard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56970 Harry, You're A Wizard (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _Baby, You're A Rich Man_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle14.html Hagrid: Harry Potter yeh ain't one of these horrible Muggles They never told you who yeh are and 'bout your family Harry: My parents they died in a car, I don't know what you mean Hagrid: Harry Potter yeh ain't one of these horrible Muggles Gulping gargoyles, yeh don't know? Yeh don't know 'bout our world? Yeh never got Dumbledore's note? It's time that yeh've been told Harry, you're a wizard Harry, you're a wizard Harry, you're a wizard too Somehow yeh survived when your parents were killed by You-Know-Who And that's the truth Harry, you're a wizard Harry, you're a wizard Harry, you're a wizard, too Harry Potter yeh ain't one of these horrible Muggles Harry: Hagrid you must be mistaken, what you say cannot be Hagrid: Have yeh ever made things happen when yeh were scared or angry? Harry, you're a wizard Harry, you're a wizard Harry, you're a wizard too And a thumpin' good one you'll turn out to be that's what I say Once you've been trained Harry, you're a wizard Harry, you're a wizard Harry, you're a wizard too (repeat 'till fade) -Gail B....this Midi does not do this song justice. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 01:55:22 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:55:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56971 Darrin wrote: > > > Again, Dumbledore was sending the message that it is better to EARN points for your own house than to plot ways of making other houses lose points. > > Now me (Laura): Agreed, this is true. BUT (There's always a but) Darrin: > > > He's also sending the message that Ron and Neville's courage, Hermione's cleverness and Harry's honor are worth more than Draco's cunning. > > > Laura again: Isn't that exactly the point I was trying to make? Let's ignore the whole "Why isn't Hermione in Ravenclaw" issue for a minute and think about this. Honor and courage= Gryffindor. Cunning= Slytherin. And Dumbledore is trying to send what message, did you say? This is exactly my point- Slytherin has a bad rap. Hagrid incorrectly states that all of the Dark Wizards were from Slytherin, and everyone has a negative stereotype against them. And in my opinion, Dumbledore perpetuates this stereotype as much as anyone else. Sure, some of the Slytherins are nasty- but isn't that the point that JKR is trying to make? Good and bad is not black and white. Look at Snape- Head of Slytherin house and a nasty, vicious person- who risked his life by turning away from LV. I'm dying for this stereotype against Slytherin to be gotten rid of, and I honestly don't think Dumbledore does much to abolish it, despite his open mind and second chances. Also, why is cunning necessarily a bad thing? How do you think Snape collected information for Dumbledore? A huge theme of the books is unity, and another is that no one is perfect. And I think Dumbledore and Slytherin tie these themes together very nicely. -Laura Who loves Dumbledore and finds this only fault From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 02:31:21 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 02:31:21 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56972 > Darrin: > > > > > He's also sending the message that Ron and Neville's courage, > Hermione's cleverness and Harry's honor are worth more than Draco's > cunning. > > > > > > Laura again: > Isn't that exactly the point I was trying to make? Let's ignore the > whole "Why isn't Hermione in Ravenclaw" issue for a minute and think > about this. Honor and courage= Gryffindor. Cunning= Slytherin. And > Dumbledore is trying to send what message, did you say? Now I say: (Or, Darrin say, for easier quoting:) No, I did NOT say Dumbledore was saying "Gryff good, Slyth bad." I said he was saying, "Harry, Ron and Hermione good, Draco bad." There IS a difference. As I said, Harry, Ron, Hermione and earned their points trying to keep a powerful magical item from falling into the wrong hands. Harry himself clearly states that points no longer matter, because if Voldemort comes back, who gives a rat's butt about points? (I'm paraphrasing) Draco's cunning was all about points, and he succeeded. Dumbledore, I felt, made a clear distinction. Can you imagine Draco, or any Slytherin student we've met so far, saying, "I will open myself up for a giant stone chess piece to attack and maybe kill me so you can go forward" like Ron did? And that's why Ron's deeds are worth more than Draco skulking around, trying to get Gryffindor to lose points. There is another side to the "humiliated Slyths" argument. Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville all took great risks, and, in the case of all but Hermione, suffered physical harm for their troubles. Would it not be an insult to them to just kind of quietly pull them aside and say, "well, you won, good show, hope your bruises are healing nicely." > This is exactly my point- Slytherin has a bad rap. Hagrid > incorrectly states that all of the Dark Wizards were from Slytherin, and everyone has a negative stereotype against them. And in my opinion, Dumbledore perpetuates this stereotype as much as anyone else. > Sure, some of the Slytherins are nasty- but isn't that the point that JKR is trying to make? So far, ALL the Slytherins are nasty. Snape, though on the right side (apparently), is still a loathsome individual in his personal conduct. As for the students who have merited more than a name, we have a spoiled rich kid in Draco, bullies, thugs and cheaters in Crabbe, Goyle and Flint and a gossipy bitch in Pansy. The Slytherin Quiddtich team are all portrayed as cheaters and other Slytherins, though unnamed, applaud Harry sarcastically after he loses points, refuse to stand to honor Cedric Diggory, and make snake faces in GoF after Harry is revealed to be a Parslemouth. At some point, it stops being a stereotype and starts being a trend. > I'm dying for this stereotype against Slytherin to be gotten rid of, and I honestly don't think Dumbledore does much to abolish it, > despite his open mind and second chances. Snape still has a job, doesn't he? Didn't Dumbledore testify on Snape's behalf in GoF? Didn't Dumbledore tell Harry not once, but twice, that Snape was to be trusted? Just as he is judging Snape on his individual merits, I think Dumbledore was making a judgement about the conduct of five students, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville and Draco, not about the houses themselves. > Also, why is cunning necessarily a bad thing? How do you think Snape collected information for Dumbledore? > Again, Draco's cunning is what I was saying Dumbledore was taking issue with. When Draco risks his life to switch sides, then he gets to be what Snape is. Until then, he is a little brat. Darrin -- Thinking that any "good" Slytherin who dares show his face would get a Leg-Locker put on him by Draco. From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 5 02:41:45 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 21:41:45 -0500 Subject: QRe: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville/Memory Charms References: Message-ID: <005401c312af$df130bd0$14ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56973 > Kelly (me) > >Then I got to thinking that his parents were found alive and their > >tormentors were captured, so the DE's didn't get to finish their > dirty deeds. > > Cindy C. > Maybe there's another reason the Pensieve Four didn't kill the > Longbottoms outright. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't want the Dark > Mark to appear over the Longbottoms' house, see. > Kelly (me) Well, if they didn't want the Dark Mark to appear over the house, then all they would have to do is not say the spell that will send it up. We see Crouch Jr. say "Morsmordre," right before the Dark Mark shows up at the QWC. > > Kelly (me) > > Later, we see Crouch Jr.'s trial for the torture of the > >Longbottoms. Harry places his age at around 19. So this trial > >would then have had to be 3-5 years after the first batch, giving a > >little bit of leeway for age miscalculations on both ends. If this > >is the case, Neville was anywhere between 4-7 years old. Let's say > >5 just for the fun of it. This would be long enough after all > >the post-war trials that the WW would have been feeling safe. This > >would also make Neville old enough to be able to remember what > >transpired if he was actually at home at the time, and not > > with his Gran. > Cindy C > Oh, I dunno, Kelley. I dunno. See, I always figured that > Voldemort's empire folded like a napkin once he was reduced to a > garlic-scented fume. "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's > fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe." So if > Voldemort falls in October 1981, I'm figuring the Pensieve Four > torture the Longbottoms right away, perhaps even before 1982 > starts. This makes Neville quite young indeed, I'm thinking. > Kelly (me) Again, I thought the same as you did. Until I calculated the dates up above. If the Longbottoms were tortured immediately after the war, then Crouch Jr would still have been 15 or so. To account for him looking about 19, this would had to have taken place a couple of years later. By this time, all the DE trials are over and the wizarding world, for the most part, is beginning to whisper reassuringly to themselves that the dark days are over. Things are beginning to get back to normal. Enter Crouch Jr. and the other Pensieve people. All of a sudden, it is no longer safe again. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From amani at charter.net Mon May 5 02:44:25 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:44:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius(WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points References: Message-ID: <00bb01c312b0$3e0588c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56974 Annechan: > Snape on the other's way... was intelligent (cf knowing more curses > than seventh grade students) but not enough to be the first student > (James was, Sirius was second, and I bet Lily was third) he wasn't a > headboy (James was) and on the quidditch field, we don't know if he > played, we just know he's skilled enough to be a referee (anyway James Hi, are you sure about your statement? How do you know there is such a "category" of intelligence?? To be first student is definitly no proof for beeing most intelligent! Traditionally first student will become the person who gets most promotion!!! In fact promotion means very often popularity, because it is a very important indicator for feeling good and beloved. That?s the best supposition for it. I work with kids professionally so I know what I`m talking about. There are different forms of intelligence and talents. Me: I'm going to disagree with that on the basis that I still /am/ in school (sophomore in high school, to be exact). The top two students in my class are the top two because they are rather unpopular and devote mass amounts of time to their schoolwork and sacrificing more of their social life than others. More popular people tend to spend more time with their friends and at social outings. Below them are the smart (not necessarily /smartest/) people who are the most hard-working. I would stake my intelligence against most of the people in my class, yet I'm 60th. Why? Because I have a horrible work ethic and lack the determination to do everything that people higher ranking than me do. Hermione has the combination of being very intelligent and extremely hard-working and diligent, which is why she holds first in the class. She's eased up on being quite so psycho about schoolwork after spending time with Harry and Ron. Why? Because before, she didn't have anything else to do. She was very unpopular, so she filled her time with school. Harry and Ron have given a valuble balance to her life. I'd also like to know where those ranks (James, Sirius, Lily) came from. I don't recall them in the books, but maybe I've being silly. You've said that Lily is just personal speculation, which I think is pretty unfounded because we know about five people from that class, but I'd like to know about the James and Sirius ranks. I've always thought of Snape as a Hermione-type in his school days, but the type who would grow mean at teasing instead of crying. I would speculate Snape could've been a second to James' first. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmeec316 at aol.com Sun May 4 23:18:16 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 23:18:16 -0000 Subject: Neville/Memory Charms In-Reply-To: <001001c311fc$eb9dbd40$8accaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56975 Lately there has been a lot of talk about Neville and the possibility of him being with seeing/hearing distance of his parents at the time of their torture.... Kelly said: I had always assumed he was an infant like Harry, which made me wonder why people thought he wouldn't have been killed, let alone remembered anything. Then I got to thinking that his parents were found alive and their tormentors were captured, so the DE's didn't get to finish their dirty deeds. Which left me with Neville's age at the time. If these particular trials were held not long after Voldemort's disappearance, then we can put Neville between 1-2 years old. Later, we see Crouch Jr.'s trial for the torture of the Longbottoms. Harry places his age at around 19. So this trial would then have had to be 3-5 years after the first batch, giving a little bit of leeway for age miscalculations on both ends. If this is the case, Neville was anywhere between 4-7 years old. Let's say 5 just for the fun of it. This would be long enough after all the post-war trials that the WW would have been feeling safe. This would also make Neville old enough to be able to remember what transpired if he was actually at home at the time, and not with his Gran. (Side note there: I sometimes wonder if Neville was even at home, because I could see the DE's easily killing him or torturing him just to get at his parents and maybe to make them talk if they were there to gather information. Therefore, either they had a really good hiding spot for him in the house, or he was not home at the time.) Now from J: I am wondering why it matters so much what age Neville was at the time of the attack??? Why don't we take a little look at another wizard whose parents suffered at the hands of LV--meaning, of course, Harry :-D Harry WAS at home when his parents were murdered. Harry was approximately the same age as Neville (probably younger) when each of their respective horrific events took place. And Harry DOES remember certain things from the attack. (1) In the first few chapters of PS/SS it is revealed to us that Harry remembers the blinding green light and LV's laugh. And (2) in PoA the Dementors cause Harry to HEAR the events that took place on that night in Godric Hollow. So probably a great clue as to whether or not Neville was home during his parent's attack is to pay attention to how he reacted to the dementors on the train--Ch. 5 PoA Hardback US edition... OK. Soon after Harry comes to when the dementor is sent away, "Harry looked around the bright compartment. Ginny and Neville looked back at him, both very pale." Now, we all know that dementors the dementors affect those with unhappy pasts more than others. These are the only two that JKR notes as "pale," and both definitely have unhappy pasts. (Ginny with the how she was influenced by the diary and Neville with his parents.) Yes, it could just be out of concern for Harry that the are "pale"...or it could be because they tend to be portrayed as weaker characters than the threesome. But I think the paleness was the direct effect of the dementors. Continuing on...later texts Neville comments on the Dementors. He says, "It was horrible...did you feel how cold it got when they came in." Neville makes no mention to hearing or remember anything unhappy from his past. Then on the following page, the text point out that Ginny "was huddled in a corner looking nearly as bad as Harry felt." No more mention of Neville. So did Ginny suffer more from the dementors than Neville?? Alright :-D Here are some conclusions we can draw from looking at this text: (1) Neville definitely does have something in his past that the dementors bring forth--otherwise he wouldn't have been so pale. (2) It is not something as effective or affective--both would work, right?--as Harry's or Neville would have been passed out on the floor as well. (And it might not even have been as effective or affective as Ginny's, judging by their reactions. Unless Neville is made of tougher stuff than we realize!) So...my guess would be that Neville WAS NOT home when his parents were tortured. If he were, he would've felt as much of the dementors effect as Harry. Probably what made him look so "pale" is visiting his parent in St. Mungos, seeing the state they're in, and knowing what put them there. Those are my thought on Neville! ~J Who agrees with Harry that Neville deserves more a great deal more sympathy and support that he appears to be given because it would be really hard to have parents who don't remember you (...which would be my theory as to why Neville is the way he is...) From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Mon May 5 00:15:00 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenneyjohn) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 00:15:00 -0000 Subject: Subject: Re: OK... theory I read while I was gone Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gishstar1" wrote: (should there be a snip here? i hope not, if so, sorry) That is SO wild!! Another really crazy and stupid theory I've had for a short time, until I woke up and realized how dumb it was... James' wand is good for transfiguration... SO! (and this is REALLY out there so bear with me) I think he transfigured Lily into a cat... a.k.a. Crookshanks, (I know, sounds stupid) and then the person that was really Lily was actually a cat... and now Lily is Crookshanks... Ok ok... so I think I just read a little to far into the story. Even I think it's a bird brained idea. The Key of Kenney thinks: Like, yeah man this just might work! And when Voldemort comes to Kill the Potters, he comes up against a guy in costume and a cat, and somehow doesn't manage to kill baby Harry Wait a minute: maybe because Voldemort IS Harry! You can't kill your past self, coz if you did, you wouldn't be there to go back and kill yourself. Yeah that's it: Harry's Voldemort, Lilly is a Cat, James is Lupin/Sirius and Hagrid's a mantelpiece. It just makes that much sense! >From the Key of Kenney Who yesterday saw a poster sized image of the book 5 cover, attempted to steal it and was made to promise not to, so didn't. Dam. From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 5 02:05:29 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:05:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Redeemed!Dudley? Message-ID: <1a3.143e3918.2be720e9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56977 pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: > Another interesting point is when Mr Weasley sees Dudley in GoF. Mr > Weasley is an adult outside the family dynamic and a fairly > competent parent. Mr Weasley spots Dudley's behaviour as really > worrying almost as soon as he sees him. Even Harry notices that Mr > Weasley is `genuinely concerned'. [GoF Ch. 4 p. 45] It's in line > with the school report, with its worries for Dudley's health. Adults > outside the Dursley family are worried about Dudley. > > Is Dudley redeemable? Probably. Like Harry, he spends most of the > year outside his family environment. Unlike Harry, he's not adapting > well to being outside the family (bad marks, bullying others) ? but > at least, like Harry, he has other adults who are becoming concerned. Dudley can be redeemed only if the Dursleys can be intimidated by the school. Now, I'm sure that this can be done. The Durselys are terrified at the prospect of being thought "odd" or "wrong". Certainly Duddikins being expelled from Smeltings would be a crushing blow (I'd love to hear how Aunt Marge would blame it on Harry), so they will bend over backwards to comply with the school's "suggestions". As for Dudley himself, I can imagine what it must be like trying to be a bully in a school where everyone carries a stick! Did Dudley's friends from primary school join him at Smeltings? Or did this unathletic and out-of-shape young boy manage to recruit his own "Crabbe and Goyle"? Meanwhile, he would have gone from an environment where his every act is showered with praise to one in which he is criticized by the authority figures (we know Dudley's grades aren't up to snuff from the school report, and we also know that Dudley isn't much on studying) although I doubt he is made sport of the way Harry is by Snape. Long term, if Smeltings can teach Dudley self-discipline he might even make a decent student and end up selling machinery like Uncle Vernon. If not, he's probably headed for the dole queue or prison. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 5 02:33:51 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:33:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... Message-ID: <4e.1bbe86bc.2be7278f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56978 the_fox01 at hotmail.com writes: > And yet there's no question of his qualifications, academically speaking -- > in fact, he could be teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts *or* Potions. > (This is a less-solid point, since presumably if he were as qualified to > teach DADA as he thinks he is, Dumbledore would consider him for the gig > one > of these days.) JMHO, but I doubt Snape will ever teach DADA full-time, and here's the opinion behind it: In Economics (a Muggle science) we learn about something called "opportunity cost", the price of NOT doing something. The standard example was William Howard Taft, who was probably the best stenographer of his time, but could gain more by pursuing a political career. Similarly, I suspect that Snape would probably be the best DADA teacher Hogwarts ever had (certainly better than Quirrel and "Moody" (both of who were in the thrall of Voldemort) or Lockhart (who was plain old fraud)' BUT (and this is the part that is pure opinion) he probably the most accomplished potion-brewer alive, and seems to be able to impart the skills necessary to everyone except Neville. Even Harry, Ron, and Hermione, who don't pay attention half the time, and are verbally abused as well, seem to have no problem passing their exams. Snape can't teach DADA *and* Potions (even Snape can only teach so many classes a day), so Dumbledore keeps Snape down in the dungeon with the cauldrons. However, keep in mind that when Professor Lupin was "indisposed", it was Snape who filled in for him. BTW, has it ever bothered anyone else that Potions is taught in the dungeon, rather than in one of the upper rooms where the fumes would dissipate better? -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Mon May 5 02:40:28 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 21:40:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Suicide In-Reply-To: <20030504063621.19996.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030504063621.19996.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1052102428.3eb5cf1c35e64@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 56979 Quoting Tyler Hewitt : > Laura wrote: > What do you guys think about wizard suicide?... > ...Not only that, how do wizards kill themselves, > assuming they wanted to? > > > _______ > > Coulden't they just cast an Avada Kedavra at > themselves? > Or if that's not posible, cast one at Harry, and it > would bounce off of him (leaving a nasty scar) and do > in the sender! > > Tyler > Amber: As far as suicide goes, it is my belief it does happen. However, concerning the scene after Harry falls off his broom, and Dumbledore stopping him, therefore, preventing death: Why does he "have" to do it. I think this is because Harry is unconscious. He can not save himself. With Neville falling from the 2nd story, he was conscious, so he bounced. Also, given Snape is teaching them Antidotes and talks about poisoning Trevor, I would imagine there is plenty of ingredients to mix up and drink. Remember the potions chamber in PS/SS? Just a thought--- Amber, who hasn't thought about it, but does now... -- Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 5 02:59:29 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:59:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I Hate Snape... Message-ID: <122.21f71719.2be72d91@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56980 silencescreamsatme at yahoo.com writes: > There seems to be an abundance of people quailified > enough to teach DADA, (and they don't even have to be > qualified...Lockhart certainly wasn't, and I'm sure Dumbledore saw > through him from the first) but how many people could teach Potions > considering it seems to be one of the hardest magical arts to master? I'm not sure Dumbledore saw through Lockhart at all, he may have offered him the job based on his books/resume which was impressive enough. However, even assuming DD did, the second person to see through him was Snape. Lockhart was incredibly foolish in asking Snape to help him with the dueling club (notice it was never mentioned again?). My theories as to why: 1) Lockhart figured that the Potions teacher was probably the least competent dueler (sort of like asking the Science teacher to demonstrate boxing techniques). 2) Snape figured that he could easily manipulate Lockhart into allowing Potter and Malfoy to duel, expecting Draco to easily beat an inexperienced dueler and embarrassing Potter. My, weren't they BOTH surprised? -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon May 5 03:22:08 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 03:22:08 -0000 Subject: Dementor & Harry (was:Re: OK... theory I read while I was gone) In-Reply-To: <20030504161805.94283.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > Lynn: > In > fact, given that the Dementors were about to give > Harry the kiss later, it may in fact be the > Dementors who Lupin put on the train to guard > against. No one else reports that the Dementors > wouldn't move along and yet Lupin had to do a > Patronus to get rid of the Dementor for that > compartment. Annemehr: I have been wondering about this Dementor, actually. I think that when it entered Harry's compartment and "got a taste" of Harry, that it found something it *really* liked, because Harry's reaction was so extreme. It makes me wonder if that particular Dementor wasn't the one that led all the others to the Quidditch field the day Harry fell off his broom. I also think it was the same one who tried to "kiss" Harry on the night of the Shrieking Shack episode. It probably wasn't just trying to get Harry out of the way, it really *wanted* him first. I think Harry has something else to watch out for. Annemehr wondering if this isn't too Captain Hook & the Crocodile? From risako at nexusanime.com Mon May 5 03:10:45 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 00:10:45 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Random Thoughts References: <20030505011256.61582.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006d01c312b3$edf358e0$ac846395@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 56982 Lynn wrote: > 1. Now that Percy is working, is he paying his > parents room and board? Is that why he thinks > everyone in the house has to be very quiet and > why he doesn't have to share his room in GoF? > (Yea, yea, I know what Ron says about why Percy > doesn't have to share his room.) It's possible that he's paying them room and board, but I figured his insistence on quiet comes partly from a need for quiet to work (with which I sympathise!) and a general feeling of self-importance :) > 2. At what age do wizards move out from mummy > and daddy's and get their own place? I imagine this would vary the same way it does in the Muggle world, and for the same reasons. The first job a young witch/wizard gets after graduating from Hogwarts isn't likely to pay that well, the same as in our world. > 3. Are there special wizard realtors or do > wizards have to deal with Muggle realtors when > they want to buy a house? There would pretty much have to be special realtors. A Muggle realtor would be hard-pressed to understand a wizard's requirements in a house (must not have eckeltricity, must have large fireplace for Floo powder rather than an electric fire, etc.). > 4. Why didn't Bill, Charlie or Mr. Weasley lend > Ron their dress robes for the Yule Ball? Even a > bit big, it would have been better than what Ron > had to wear. I'm assuming Fred and George were > wearing Bill and Charlie's old ones. I assumed that the elder Weasleys had sold their robes to a secondhand store, since they're always short of money. Fred and George are the short stocky ones, right? so they wouldn't be able to wear their older brothers' robes anyway. > 5. Why do the Weasleys keep buying the textbooks > second hand when the older kids could just pass > down their books? It looks to me like the textbooks change from year to year, depending on the professor and the publication of new books. My brain gave out here.... I hope other people have answers to the rest of the questions! Melissa McCarthy From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 5 03:29:23 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:29:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) References: Message-ID: <005b01c312b6$86802a00$14ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 56983 Darrin > > The Slytherin Quiddtich team are all portrayed as cheaters and other > Slytherins, though unnamed, applaud Harry sarcastically after he > loses points, refuse to stand to honor Cedric Diggory, and make snake > faces in GoF after Harry is revealed to be a Parslemouth. > > At some point, it stops being a stereotype and starts being a trend. Kelly (me) Forgive me if I quote for a short bit from GoF. "There is much that I would like to say to you all tonight," said Dumbledore, "but I must first acknowledge the loss of a very fine person, who should be sitting here," he gestured toward the Hufflepuffs, "enjoying our feast with us. I would like you all, please, to stand, and raise your glasses, to Cedric Diggory." They did it, *all* of them; the benches scraped as *everyone* in the Hall stood, and raised their goblets, and echoed, in one loud, low, rumbling voice, "Cedric Diggory." (p. 721 U.S. edition) Dumbledore proceeds to tell the students that Cedric was killed by Voldemort and that the MoM didn't want him to tell the students that. >From p. 722 U. S. edition: Stunned and frightened, every face in the Hall was turned toward Dumbledore now...or almost every face. Over at the Slytherin table, Harry saw Draco Malfoy muttering something to Crabbe and Goyle. Dumbledore proceeds to honor Harry. From p. 723 U. S. edition: Nearly everyone in the Great Hall followed suit. They murmured his name, as they had murmured Cedric's, and drank to him. But through a gap in the standing figures, Harry saw that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and many of the other Slytherins had remained defiantly in their seats, their goblets untouched. This is how I interpret these passages. First we have Cedric's toast. Since everyone was said to be standing for this toast (I added all the emphases), from this I conclude that Draco and his cronies stood for this one. If they didn't, I would think this would have been mentioned. The second passage, we see three Slytherins, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, start to talk amongst themselves. After all, it is only at this point that they hear that Voldemort was involved with this death. Nothing is said about the other Slytherins. In the third passage, the three aforementioned Slytherins are now joined by some of their number in not standing for the toast to Harry. This could be because these people personally can't stand Harry, because Draco's conversation has made it down to them and they have DE ties as well, or for reasons as myriad as the people themselves. The point here is that the Slytherins *did* stand to honor Cedric. Even if Cedric wasn't from their house, I never got the impression that they hated him. After all, they created the Support Cedric Diggory badges. Sure, that was mainly to get at Harry, but they were still backing Cedric, which had to have generated *some* feelings of good will on their part. Not to mention that a boy they knew to some extent, that attended their school, and that everyone expected to survive the Tournament is now dead. We really only see the Slytherins (not counting the main three) be contrary to the rest of the school when it comes to Harry, and it's already been established that many in that House hate him. And even at this point, it is never said that *all* of the Slytherins remained in their seats, just some of them. Which just goes to support the whole "All Slytherins are bad" statement as being a stereotype. I as well am hoping that the stereotypes each House has of the other are broken down and the students made to realize that, when it comes down to it, people are just people. From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 03:16:48 2003 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 03:16:48 -0000 Subject: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: <000001c31250$8e09dac0$2c100150@chris> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56984 Alison wrote: > The main flaw in it - > and it looks like a big one to me - is why has Lupin/James not taken any > interest in Harry in the last 12 years? The biggest flaw is: why does Lily say, "Your father's coming," at the end of Book 4. Wouldn't the wraith that comes out of V's wand be Lupin and not James? And wouldn't Lily know it? Nice idea. Doesn't hold. Saw the book. Pretty good. Completely ignored the Lily/James/Emergence Order issue. Fatal flaw for the level of analysis put in. Not worth the cash. Chuck From sem128 at msn.com Mon May 5 07:25:37 2003 From: sem128 at msn.com (James Mackell) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 03:25:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort....muggle...hmmm Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56985 Nicole wrote: "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father", he hissed softly, "A muggle and a fool...very like your dear mother..." I was just reading GOF again to refresh my memory and get ready to move on to OOTP and came across this sentence that Voldemort speaks to Harry in the graveyard. Why does he compare Lily to his father? was Lily a muggle? I thought Harry's parents were a wizard and a witch. Any thoughts on this? Maybe I am just not understanding the quote properly. me: Okay... Voldie has a muggle father- tom riddle, and a witch mother... doesnt that make him somewhat of a mudblood because he is half and half? So that would mean he isnt pure-blood...shouldn't he be killing himself then>? "James" From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Mon May 5 03:48:06 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 03:48:06 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: <20030505011256.61582.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56986 Lynn wrote: > While lying down trying to get rid of a pounding > headache, the following questions came to mind > and just made me say Hmmmmm. > 1. Now that Percy is working, is he paying his > parents room and board? Is that why he thinks > everyone in the house has to be very quiet and > why he doesn't have to share his room in GoF? > (Yea, yea, I know what Ron says about why Percy > doesn't have to share his room.) > 2. At what age do wizards move out from mummy > and daddy's and get their own place? > 3. Are there special wizard realtors or do > wizards have to deal with Muggle realtors when > they want to buy a house? > 4. Why didn't Bill, Charlie or Mr. Weasley lend > Ron their dress robes for the Yule Ball? Even a > bit big, it would have been better than what Ron > had to wear. I'm assuming Fred and George were > wearing Bill and Charlie's old ones. > > 5. Why do the Weasleys keep buying the textbooks > second hand when the older kids could just pass > down their books? > > 6. How powerful a wizard do you have to be in > order to snap your fingers and have ropes fly out > and bind someone as Quirrell does in PS? > > 7. Why did Hermione lie about going after the > troll? Was she supposed to have a pass to go to > the toilet, didn't have one and thought that was > worse? > > 8. If Quirrell got through to the Philosopher's > Stone, how come everything was able to reset > somehow, except the troll? > > 9. Why didn't Harry just tell Quirrell what he > had previously seen in the Mirror of Erised, his > parents, instead of making something else up? > > 10. Why did Lucius Malfoy have no choice but to > leave when Dooby told him too? Is an elves > finger the equivalent of a wizard's wand? > > 11. Was Harry able to throw off the Imperious > Curse put on him by Voldemort so easily because > they are connected by the curse that failed? > Because, as Dumbledore has surmised, Voldemort > transferred some of himself to Harry? > > 12. How were Crouch, Jr. and Wormtail able to > get past Moody's foe detectors so easily that > they were able to get into his house and > overpower him, granted, after a struggle? > > 13. Why didn't anyone do the Priori Incantatem > spell on Sirius's wand to find out if he was the > one who had cast the spell that blew up the > street? Why didn't he suggest that when he was > arrested? > > 14. What happened to Wormtail's wand? Was he > able to carry it down into the sewer in his > mouth? > > 15. Didn't it strike the MoM strange that > Pettigrew's robes were intact but the spell was > powerful enough to disintegrate everything but a > finger? And why didn't the finger disintegrate > as well? > > 16. Why does Snape have an apparent phobia about > washing his hair? > > 17. Why didn't everyone eventually get a trial > after the downfall of Voldemort? Are there still > people in Azkaban who have never had a trial? > > 18. Why would there still be a wizarding > contract for Harry if he didn't put his name into > the Goblet of Fire? > > 19. Just how much whiskey did the Beauxbaton > horses drink per day and did there need to be a > distillery working full-time to supply them? > > 20. Can Dementors be killed? If they can, why > hasn't someone gotten rid of those nasty things > by now? Do Dementors have any positive purpose > at all? Me(Linda): Alright I'm going to go in order here. Sorry if you have to scroll up and down to match up questions and answers. 1,2 and 3 I have absolutely no idea. 4. That does seem reasonable. I wonder if they may have actually been too small for Ron. Their gerneral build seems to be describrd as thin while Ron is more the stocky type. 5. I don't see why the transfiguration text books couldn't be passed down as there seem to be different levels of those. However, with the other exception of DADA (constantly changing due to new teachers) most of the text books seem to be ggod for more than one year (ie History of Magic). 6. Never thought about it. 7. I don't think she wanted the teachers to know that she had been crying and why. 8. Actually the only thing that reset itself was the chess set and that could have been part of what it were 'programmed ' to do. Devils snare just was. We know Quirrel drank from the correct potion because there was only a mouthful left. As for the key, he probably released it back with the others once he opened the door, just like HHR did. I'm missing something...oh yeah, Fluffy. Fluffy woke up as soon as the music stopped. 9. I don't think it would have made any difference either way. 10. According to Hermione,elves have very powerful magic of their own. (She's usually right about these things.) I'm sure Lucius was aware of that as well. 11. I don't think that was related to V at all. Harry was able to throw it off when Moody (Crouch Jr) cast it as well. 12. Maybe Moody will explain in OOP. 13. VERY good question. Maybe they didn't think it was necessary? 14.I don't see how. He was using V's wand in the graveyard. 15. See answer 13. I think they just didn't bother to think that far. No one ever said they were rational about it. 16. He He He 17. Probably the classic stick your head in the sand mentality. Fudge was in charge after all. 18. Harry couldn't proove he didn't put it in. Also, a magical contract, like everything else in the WW, probably works much differantly than one in the muggle world. 19. Don't know and don't know. However, it MUST have been a lot considering their size and how many of them there were. and finally 20. I vaguely remember something in an interview with JKR wher she said something regarding this. I can't remember where I saw it or which interview it was, sorry. If any body else knows the refferance please enlighten me. Whew, made it through. Linda- who should have been in bed at least an hour ago. From drdara at yahoo.com Mon May 5 04:24:15 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 21:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GOF-Pensieve-Crouch Jr/Nevilles Ages Message-ID: <20030505042415.3503.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56987 Lets set the record straight as to Crouch jr's age. No where does Crouch Sr ever say in the pensieve that his son had received 12 owls. Crouch Sr talks about the OWLS in chap 28 : The Madness Of Mr. Crouch, page 555-556, American Edition, Paperback of GOF. During these pages Crouch Sr is going back and forth between the present and past. It is then that he remarks to Harry and Krum about his son receiving the OWLS. So lets assume that the attacks happened within a year or two of Harry's parents deaths, then that makes Neville 2 or 3 when his parents were tortured. But all we have on Crouch Jr's age is that Harry says he looked about in his late teens. He could be in his early 20's for all we know. What we do know is that to Harry he looked young, and just out of school. For all we know he was in his 7th year at school, because Crouch Sr never says anything about what NEWTS he received. I hope this helps clears a few things about how old Neville was. I hope Neville is able to get some sort of revenge or justice for his parents. Danielle- The lurker who has come out of lurkdom, and who has started the 2nd reading of all the books. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon May 5 04:33:11 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 04:33:11 -0000 Subject: Neville/Memory Charms In-Reply-To: <001001c311fc$eb9dbd40$8accaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here. I'm too lazy to go doublecheck GoF > to verify my facts. Just trying to get this written up so I can get to bed. > During one of the trials in the Pensieve (Karkaroff's?), we see Crouch Sr. > If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in one of these trials we overhear him > telling someone that his son had just received 12 O.W.L.'s. This would > place Crouch Jr. as just having finished his fifth year, around 16 years > old. If these particular trials were held not long after Voldemort's > disappearance, then we can put Neville between 1-2 years old. > Annemehr: Actually, the "twelve O.W.L.s" quote was from the Chapter called "The Madness of Mr. Crouch", where Crouch escapes from Wormtail and makes his way to Hogwarts and Harry sees him by the forest. So, he says it when Harry is fourteen, and he is raving. An excerpt from this rather long passage gives you the gist: "Thank you, Weatherby, and when you have done that, I would like a cup of tea. My wife and son will be arriving shortly, we are attending a concert tonight with Mr. and Mrs. Fudge." Crouch was now talking fluently to a tree again, and seemed completely unaware that Harry was there, which surprised Harry so much he didn't notice that Crouch had released him. "Yes, My son has recently gained twelve O.W.L.s, most satisfactory, yes, thank you, yes, very proud indeed. ... So, it can have nothing to do with figuring out how old Neville was at the time of his parents' torture, I'm afraid. Annemehr there's never a L.O.O.N. around when you need one... From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Mon May 5 04:35:53 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 04:35:53 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Longbottoms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56989 Wow, there is no way to keep up with the volume of posts these days! Anyway, I was rereading PoA, and had a theory pop up. Why is Snape the thing that scares Neville the most? Is it only due to his treatment of Neville at school? Or is it possible that Snape was the DE who performed Cruciatus on the Longbottoms, and Neville has a supressed memory of this? At any rate, why is Snape so hard on Neville? More questions I know we can't answer concretely (yet!), but I humbly submit them for your opinions. imamommy From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Mon May 5 04:48:44 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 04:48:44 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > I don't even have much faith in Trelawney as a Seer. For someone who > believes in everything from tea leaves to the stars, she is mighty > close-minded about her predictions. Yeah, and how about the fact she can't "see" that Ron and Harry are faking their homework all year? She is way into the melodrama. Can you imagine if Harry predicted, "Well, I'm going to be given a Firebolt for Christmas, and then I'll learn how to cast a mighty Patronus, and that Grim is really my godfather; I'm going to find out he's an animagus. She never would have believed him. What I find so greatly amusing about the stuff with Trelawney is the side it brings out in McGonagall. As a matter of fact, it shows up a nice similarity between Hermione and McGonagall. It makes me think Hermione is very fortunate to have her as Head of House. From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 5 04:40:12 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 00:40:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape. Woo-HOO! With All Due Apologies to Captain Cin... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56991 pegruppel at yahoo.com writes: > I certainly don't believe that his chambers are decorated in chintz > and French antiques. But I suspect, with many others on the list, > that at least *some* of his behavior is meant to convince the > Slytherins that he's on their side. Other incidents, Hermione's > teeth being one, the threat to poison Neville's toad Trevor, etc., > etc., are beyond the pale. I suspect that Snape has a modicum of sentimentality, and in his chambers, you would find portraits of the great potion-brewers of the past, possibly a large one of Salazar Slytherin, and a few small photos of exceptional students he has taught. Fred and George Weasley may be there if their "novelties" do well, and I am fairly sure that Hermione will be there eventually. Harry Potter, however, will never be seen there. As to Neville's toad, I'm afraid I'm on Snape's side on that one. Potions are exact and unforgiving. Neville is constantly botching his potions, and one way to drive home the point that careful attention is critical is to endanger Trevor. I am sure that Snape knew *exactly* what the orange concoction would do to Trevor, and while the results might have been unpleasant/amusing, I doubt they would have been fatal. Snape had probably already brewed the potion that would undo the damage. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 5 04:56:33 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 00:56:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] More on Snape & a couple of questions Message-ID: <79.1045d162.2be74901@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56992 kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk writes: > But I think it sounds far more like Severus and > Minerva are both friends and since she at least appears to be a quidditch > fan (I can't see any evidence either way about Severus' feelings on the > game) it would only be natural that who beats whom is important. I think it > s a friendly rivalry ratehr than anything else. There don't appear to be too many teachers in Hogwarts, so I suspect that they all respect each other as colleagues, and the House Masters tend to make each other uncomfortable whenever one House scores some sort of victory over the other, all in fun, of course. Snape refereed one Quidditch match that we know of (Gryffindor vs Hufflepuff in PS/SS), so he must be familiar with the rules. In fact (and this is purely speculation), his hatred of James Potter may have stemmed from the fact that Potter was Seeker and Captain of the Quidditch team while (as far as we know) Snape was never good enough to play on the Slytherin team (and, apparently, didn't have parents wealthy enough to buy his way on as Draco Malfoy did). -- Ray Wondering what Snape's relationship with Harry would be if the Sorting Hat HAD put Harry in Slytherin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 5 06:16:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 06:16:46 -0000 Subject: My three questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > Having recently finished GoF, I have the following three questions, > though the second really pertains to SS. > > (1) Why was Dumbledore seemingly unable to detect Crouch as Moody? > ...edited.... bboy_mn: People make it sound like Dumbledore and fake!Moody should have spend all their time getting drunk, raising hell, and socializing (maybe a slight exaggeration). Moody is an eccentric recluse, he doesn't party, he doesn't shake hands, he doesn't make idle chit-chat, he doesn't go to tea parties, and pity the fool who gives him a friendly pat on the back. This is a character that most people steer clear of. Dumbledore on the other hand has a school to run. I don't think he spent all his time watchdogging Moody. Although, I think as time went on, he slowly became more suspicious of Moody's behavior, but it was easy to write it off as... well, Moody. Knowing Moody, Dumbledore probably figure Moody was that last person who needed to be watched. True Moody and Hagrid showed up at the Pub just before Christmas break, but I think Moody would find Hagrid a very non-threatening person to hang around with. Hagrid is fiercely loyal to Dumbledore, and well... not the brightest penny in the bunch. > > (2) Assuming that Voldemort became a permanent part of Quirrell at > some point, at least until the end of SS, why did Harry's scar not > hurt *every* time that Quirrell/Voldemort was nearby? > ...edited... bboy_mn: The pain in Harry's scar seems to be related to Voldemort's emotional intensity. Riding around on the back of Quirrel's head all day listening to his pathetic lectures had to be immensely boring. I suspect most of the time Voldemort was in a bordom induced stupor. On those occassion when his emotions did flare, Harry's scare did hurt. Harry does mention that his scar had never previously hurt as much or as often (or is the movie contamination?). So... his scar does hurt. > > (3) Coming back to GoF, why did Krum catch the snitch at the World > Quidditch Cup? > ...edited... > > Ersatz Harry bboy_mn: Well, you are not the only person who seriously questions this event, but it always made perfect sense to me. Ireland had a strong team, but Bulgaria had one of the best Seekers in the world. Bulgaria's team was hopelessly out manned and out gunned. There was no way they could ever catch up even with a rally. So the choices were to catch the Snitch and lose by 10 points or to fall farther and farther behind, with each goal by Ireland increasing the humiliation of the defeat of Bulgaria. The way it ended, the history books will show a close game withh a narrow victory. Krum caught the Snitch because he wanted to control the game, to end it on his terms, and to end it while they could still salvage some dignity. I must admit that there was a trace of ego in it, he wanted to make it clear that he was a far far far better Seeker than the Irish Seeker, who he ran into the ground twice. But I don't think this was a selfish act. I don't think it was an act solely to gratify himself. He was trying to end the game while his team still had some dignity. Makes perfect sense to me. As far as Fred and George betting on the outcome of the game. I'm surprised more people didn't bet that way. An objective evaluation of the players wouyld have told anyone with a little imagination that that is exactly how the game between the worlds greatest front end and the world's greatest Seeker would turn out. Just a thought. bboy_mn From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Mon May 5 05:56:49 2003 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 05:56:49 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56994 imamommy wrote: >>Why is Snape the thing that scares Neville the most? Is it only due to his treatment of Neville at school? Or is it possible that Snape was the DE who performed Cruciatus on the Longbottoms, and Neville has a supressed memory of this? At any rate, why is Snape so hard on Neville?<< In the "Pensieve" chapter of GoF, it's made clear that the attacks on the Longbottoms took place *after* Voldemort's fall; whereas, it's also made clear in the same chapter that Snape had turned spy for Dumbledore before said fall...so, I don't believe Snape was involved in that. However, outside of the more obvious frustrations of dealing with Neville's ineptitude in class, I do theorize that Neville's parents, particularly Frank Longbottom - who was an auror - may play a part in Snape's targeting of Neville. Again in the same chapter, Dumbledore tells Harry (in reagard to the trial of Crouch Jr. and the 3 DE's with him), "Unfortunately, the Longbottoms' evidence was - given their conditon - none too reliable." The implication, at least for Crouch Jr., is that some may have been wrongly imprisoned for acts they did not commit. Also, as revealed by Sirius to Harry (GoF, "Padfoot Returns" chapter), we get a clear picture of Crouch Sr's impunity as Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement: "The Aurors were given new powers - powers to kill rather than capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark Side." Given the above revelations, I speculate that it's possible that Snape may be harboring resentment that possibly stems from some sort of injustice suffered or witnessed, either directly or indirectly, by himself or someone he knew, at the hands of Aurors. Whether or not Frank Longbottom himself was guilty of such is unknown to us, but his having been an Auror under Crouch Sr.'s authority in and of itself may illuminate at least a partial reason as to why Snape bullies Neville. BM From c4bchief at yahoo.com Mon May 5 05:51:16 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 05:51:16 -0000 Subject: Voldemort....muggle...hmmm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56995 James Said: Okay... Voldie has a muggle father- tom riddle, and a witch mother... doesnt that make him somewhat of a mudblood because he is half and half? So that would mean he isnt pure-blood...shouldn't he be killing himself then>? Me: Ah ha. You've caught on to part of the irony. He clearly isn't a pureblood, but not really a mudblood. I believe he falls into the half-blood category. As do technically most of the WW (via Hagrids explanation). But yes, You are correct that he's not a pureblood. So it is funny that he hates those like him and those of muggle blood. Joe From c4bchief at yahoo.com Mon May 5 06:12:54 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 06:12:54 -0000 Subject: Dress Robes (Was: Re: Random Thoughts) In-Reply-To: <006d01c312b3$edf358e0$ac846395@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56996 Others Said: 4. Why didn't Bill, Charlie or Mr. Weasley lend Ron their dress robes for the Yule Ball? I assumed that the elder Weasleys had sold their robes to a secondhand store, since they're always short of money. Fred and George are the short stocky ones, right? so they wouldn't be able to wear their older brothers'robes anyway. > Melissa McCarthy I said: Great question. I often wondered not only could Ron have borrowed an elder brothers or his fathers robes. But also, Why couldn't he(or someone else) have just transfigured the robes to look better. Same with his other robes. If they have the ability to do more complex transfigurations, surely altering some clothing shouldn't be that hard Just some thoughts on this. Would be a great place to use their magic in a practical fashion. Especially for a poor family. Joe From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 5 06:10:04 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 02:10:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about Narcissa and the DEs Message-ID: <18c.19ceac42.2be75a3c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56997 a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com writes: > > It seems very clear that Narcissa Malfoy is not a Death Eater. But > there ARE some married couples that are both members of Voldie's > circle. Why Lucius, but not Narcissa? Not every person in the circle was identified. "He walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them." (GF pg. 651) Perhaps Narcissa was in another spot on the circle. Of course, the only female we *definately* know was in the DE circle was the absent Mrs. Lestrange. Perhaps blood purity isn't the ONLY prejudice demonstrated by Voldemort. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gregorylynn at attbi.com Mon May 5 07:20:58 2003 From: gregorylynn at attbi.com (Gregory Lynn) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 03:20:58 -0400 Subject: Hagrid Death Question Message-ID: <001c01c312d6$e07a0420$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 56998 Please forgive me for bringing up something I'm sure has been discussed a million times but I was wondering if someone could summarize the arguments for believing that Hagrid is going to get it soon. I've just skimmed over a bunch of the recent digests and seemed to see a thread that called into question the veracity of the "fan" quote. That is, the notion that one of Harry's fans is a goner. Other than that quote and the fact that he is presumably headed off to speak with some rather nasty giant types, is there other evidence of Hagrid's impending demise? I ask because, well, if Hagrid were to die my wife would never touch a Harry Potter anything as long as she lived, and might divorce me for continuing to read the books and see the movies. Thanks, ___________ Gregory Lynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hieya at hotmail.com Mon May 5 07:29:08 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:29:08 -0000 Subject: Gudgeon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 56999 Hi everyone. I noticed something interesting in the books: When Harry had detention in Lockhart's office, Lockhart mentioned a big fan of his, named Gladys Gudgeon. (CoS) In PoA, Lupin mentioned a boy named Davey Gudgeon who nearly lost an eye because of the Whomping Willow. I suspect this is a clue. It is rumored that Harry will visit St. Mungo's. Perhaps he will see Lockhart? If so, will the Chamber of Secrets be important in a future book? Personally, I would love to see the Chamber, Mr. Weasley's car, Aragog and the centaurs make an appearance once again. It would be fun to see everything tie up together in the end. greatlit2003 "Fame is a fickle friend Harry, remember that...Celebrity is as celebrity does." From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 5 07:06:14 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (valkyrievixen) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:06:14 -0000 Subject: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: <000001c31250$8e09dac0$2c100150@chris> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alison Williams" wrote: > That weird Lupin = James theory got me thinking. The main flaw in it - > and it looks like a big one to me - is why has Lupin/James not taken any > interest in Harry in the last 12 years? > > If there was such a switch isn't it much more plausible that Sirius was >the one James switched with? After all *he's* been locked up in >Askaban > for the last 12 years. Hi Alison, Contrarily,I like the original theory quite a bit. When I read POA, I saw Lupins obvious affection for Harry as a simple case of a mans fondness for his friend, visited on his son. However, this Theory brings to light a new way of viewing it and I am baited now, to see it come to the fore. JK does mention in her interviews that we will see more of Lupin. Yay, I love that character. I would like to answer ?Why? Alison, that Lupin, were he truly James, has had nothing to do with Harry. There are a few elementary answers to that question. 1. He was a werewolf. 2. He did not look like or have any claim to anything that was James'. Being unable to prove that he was James, and not Lupin since the night of the murders at Godrics Hollow because the only true proof would be Lupin / in James' body who was dead. 3. Knowledge of Harrys whereabouts those many years was protected by a spell cast by Dumbledore. Be it a secret keeper spell, or otherwise. It was certainly not common knowledge to the WW where Harry Potter was residing. I am sure that, in some unique way knowing Dumbledore, anyone who might have sought Harry would have had their path muddled by Dumbledores magic during that time. BUT, and this is a big BUTT. LOL. The thing that comes to mind, to shoo this interesting theory altogether, is; During the Priori spell from Voldemort's wand, it is the spirit of Harry's Father, James, that emerges, and not Lupin or Sirius. Perhaps we are hoping for too much in our desire to see Harry reunited with one of his parents. BOOHoo TheValk cries. From t.forch at mail.dk Mon May 5 07:48:14 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 09:48:14 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid Death Question In-Reply-To: <001c01c312d6$e07a0420$42ad1e42@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505093935.00f8fa60@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57001 At 03:20 05-05-03 -0400, you wrote: >Other than that quote and the fact that he is presumably headed off to >speak with some rather nasty giant types, is there other evidence of >Hagrid's impending demise? As I understand it much weight is put on the fact that Mr Coltrane apparently only has a contract covering the first five movies. Jo Rowling has, on the other hand, in a radio talk show with WBUR 'the Connection' clearly confirmed that Hagrid is going to be in all seven books: Pete: Hi! I have a question about Hagrid: JKR: oh, cool - I like Hagrid - ask away Pete: yeah - is he going to be in the rest of the books? JKR: Yes - Pete: ... 'cause he is my favourite character. JKR: Oh, is he your favourite character? Pete: yeah JKR: OK, I like you, because he is one of my favourite characters of - yeah- of - if you - if you take away Harry and Hermione and Ron, then I love Hagrid the best, definitely! Erm - I'd - he is - he is going to be around, you're going to keep seeing him. I - I suspect that the reason you're asking this is because there's a rumour going around that people are going to die [Pete: Right] in the upcoming books, and people /are/ going to die, and I am not going to tell you who is and who isn't because that, for a very obvious reason ... It is perhaps not so obvious in the transcript, but if you listen to the interview it is clear that the first "Yes -" by Rowling is a direct and definite answer to the question whether Hagrid is "going to be in the rest of the books." It is of course confirmed by the "he is going to be around, you're going to keep seeing him" part. This interview is from October 1999 - shortly before they started signing the movie contracts. The possibility of Hagrid dying, but returning as a ghost, can't be entirely precluded by this, but it is my impression that at the time Rowling wasn't planning to kill Hagrid. However - listen for yourself and get your own impression of what she is saying. Troels From t.forch at mail.dk Mon May 5 08:00:23 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 10:00:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: References: <000001c31250$8e09dac0$2c100150@chris> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505094934.02d15a70@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57002 At 07:06 05-05-03 +0000, valkyrievixen wrote: Lupin is James theory from the 'Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter' >BUT, and this is a big BUTT. LOL. The thing that comes to mind, to >shoo this interesting theory altogether, is; >During the Priori spell from Voldemort's wand, it is the spirit of >Harry's Father, James, that emerges, and not Lupin or Sirius. Perhaps >we are >hoping for too much in our desire to see Harry reunited with one of >his parents. I don't have any problem with the events in GoF as they were originally. It is not the spirit of the deceased as much as it is an echo of the spell that emerges, and it would only be natural if it retained the appearance of the body that was killed. Dumbledore describes it as "An echo which retained Cedric's appearance and character." I do have a problem with the corrected sequence where Lily emerges first telling Harry that "your father's coming" - it would seem to me inconcievable that James would swap bodies with Lupin without telling Lily (both assessing his character as it has been described and speaking as a married man). I also find it difficult to reconcile this theory with Rowling's words about Harry's parents when discussing death: Lydon: Peter, what is your guess about Lily - the real story about Harry's mother? Peter: Er - I don't really know, but I'm guessing that maybe she is going to come back to life, maybe in the seventh book or something like that ... JKR: Well, it would be nice, but - I'll tell you something - you - you've raised a really interesting point there, Peter, because when I started writing the books, the first thing I had to decide was not what magic /can/ do, but what it /can't/ do. I had to set limits on it - immediately, and decide what the parameters are ... and one of the most important things I - I decided was that _magic__cannot__bring__dead__people__back to life; that' - that's one of the most profound things, the - the natural law of - of - of death applies to wizards as it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're properly dead, you know, they might be able to save very close-to-death people better than we can, by magic - that they - that they have certain knowledge we don't, but once you're dead, you're dead. So - erm - yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back fro- for Harry's parents This does not leave any doubt in my mind that both of Harry's parents are 'properly dead' - again; listen to the show as well as reading the transcript. The transcript contains links to each part in mp3 format - this part is only a couple of minutes. (And time for a little promoting: we also provide a text version of the transcript. Also see our Harry Potter Meta-FAQ where we try to organise as many questions as possible http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/meta_faq.html) Troels From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 5 06:55:12 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 06:55:12 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: <20030505011256.61582.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > While lying down trying to get rid of a pounding > headache, the following questions came to mind > and just made me say Hmmmmm. Lyn, Picky Picky. I take it you still like the series after picking so many nits from it, aye? Well, Ok I have a few answers for some of your muses so lets begin.> >10. Why did Lucius Malfoy have no choice but to > leave when Dobby told him too? Is an elves > finger the equivalent of a wizard's wand? Ok GOF will tell you that elf magic is considerably powerful. Oh Darn that book is so big! It will take me all day to find the canon, I'll get back to you with it. Suffice for now to say that Elf magic, is not easily overcome by a wizard, and, perhaps Lucius is not so talented a wizard. It appears to me in the series that he gets by on his wits more than his wizardry anyway. Maybe he personally is no match for Dobby in combat and knows it. > 20. Can Dementors be killed? If they can, why > hasn't someone gotten rid of those nasty things > by now? Do Dementors have any positive purpose > at all? Yeah, I think they can be killed. JK just hasnt told us how, or whether they can reproduce either. THey however do display survival instinct in that they side with whoever is winning, and also that they seek sustenance actively . Those with survival instinct can be killed, and I think the only way we know of so far for killing Dementors, is starvation. > 17. Why didn't everyone eventually get a trial > after the downfall of Voldemort? Are there still > people in Azkaban who have never had a trial? Short answer: YES. Long answer: The MOM is a sham. It is controlled by bullies, like Lucius, and weak incompentents, like Fudge. The typically political manner of dealing with this situation fits the bill and it is. The Bad guys are in the gaol and the world is restored to peace. We need do no more. File anything else away now, lest we open a can of worms that would make us look bad. > 11. Was Harry able to throw off the Imperious > Curse put on him by Voldemort so easily because > they are connected by the curse that failed? > Because, as Dumbledore has surmised, Voldemort > transferred some of himself to Harry? No, to both. Harry threw off the Imperious curse because he is not susceptible to that particular unforgivable. Even in his first experience with it he was able to hear his own voice. When Crouch AKA Moody uses the Imperius on Harry in the first lesson he is, after a few rounds able to entirely throw off the curse and behave normally. Though he needs to concentrate harder against a power such as Voldemorts it is his own inherent ability that makes him able to resist. > 12. How were Crouch, Jr. and Wormtail able to > get past Moody's foe detectors so easily that > they were able to get into his house and > overpower him, granted, after a struggle? Probably a trick that Voldemort knew. And it was likely to have to do with the fact that they were both considered by the wider community to be dead. Moody could have been first confused by the appearance of two apparent ghosts in his foe detectors and in his hesitation was taken by use of a cunning plot devised by Voldemort. Thats what I think and I'm sticking to it. > > 13. Why didn't anyone do the Priori Incantatem > spell on Sirius's wand to find out if he was the > one who had cast the spell that blew up the > street? Why didn't he suggest that when he was > arrested? Do you mean at his trial? I suppose that they all figured that he was certainly guilty. I dont suppose that in his blind fury at Peter much logical thought could have come to mind about the peril he himself faced. I'd say the short answer to that was it all happened too fast and he was in Azkaban before he had even come to realise that Peter had gotten away. > 14. What happened to Wormtail's wand? Was he > able to carry it down into the sewer in his > mouth? I am pretty sure he left it behind along with his finger. More evidence to the story that Sirius had done away with him. > 15. Didn't it strike the MoM strange that > Pettigrew's robes were intact but the spell was > powerful enough to disintegrate everything but a > finger? And why didn't the finger disintegrate > as well? Dumb MOM aye! no idea Lyn. I guess they just didnt care, Voldemort was done away with, and peace restored, they simply refused to open a can of worms that could make them look bad.> > 16. Why does Snape have an apparent phobia about > washing his hair? Actually its a scientific fact that greasiness is a result of overwashing the hair. It causes the oil glands to overproduce. Interesting fact aye? > 18. Why would there still be a wizarding > contract for Harry if he didn't put his name into > the Goblet of Fire? What do you mean? Harry didnt put his name in Crouch did? > 6. How powerful a wizard do you have to be in > order to snap your fingers and have ropes fly out > and bind someone as Quirrell does in PS? It seems to be something that a qualified wizard can do easily. I think snape does it too in POA. > 7. Why did Hermione lie about going after the > troll? Was she supposed to have a pass to go to > the toilet, didn't have one and thought that was > worse? > 8. If Quirrell got through to the Philosopher's > Stone, how come everything was able to reset > somehow, except the troll? > 9. Why didn't Harry just tell Quirrell what he > had previously seen in the Mirror of Erised, his > parents, instead of making something else up? And these are three questions that I have pondered myself and come to one conclusion for two, and another for the other. 1.Harry and Hermione where young and had less time to think about their answers than we have. 2. The troll was a troll not a spell like the others nb the dog did not reset either. well Lyn I hope that was some fun for us all from TheValk btw..... > 19. Just how much whiskey did the Beauxbaton > horses drink per day and did there need to be a > distillery working full-time to supply them? LOL ???????? From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Mon May 5 08:03:26 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 08:03:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57004 > Darrin > -- Thinking that any "good" Slytherin who dares show his face would > get a Leg-Locker put on him by Draco. Alice: Exactly, that really is my best point so far on why it's wrong to lump all the cunning ones together into one house, BECAUSE they are cunning. They make each other nasty. They are ideal recruits for whichever bad things that are going on (just as Ravenclaws, by the way, make each other into bookworms - what would you do if all your house-mates were sitting in the library?) I still thinking the house-system's all wrong, though acknowledging it's good for the plot, as one of you stated. That's true. Alice ---wondering if there shouldn't be a mysterious new character in OoP called "Alice" From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon May 5 08:13:34 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 08:13:34 -0000 Subject: FILK: Turn Back, Champion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57005 This is a filk of the song "Turn Back O Man", from the musical "Godspell", titled "Turn Back, Champion". This filk is dedicated to Caius Marcus, whose filks are always "Good News". Turn Back, Champion SCENE: The hedge maze in the Third Task of the Tri-Wizard Tournament. Harry encounters the Sphinx. SPHINX: Turn back, Champion; Forswear thy foolish quest. To reach the Cup My riddle must be guessed. Guess right, pass on; Guess wrong and I attack. Guess not at all, And I let you go back. Turn back, Champion (do you want to try it?) Turn back, Champion (mmm, the choice is yours) Turn back, Champion (can you do it?) Forswear thy foolish quest. HARRY: (Before I'm caught in the middle, can I hear the riddle?) SPHINX: First, think of he Who travels in disguise, And deals in secrets, Telling naught but lies. Next tell what's last; The very end of end. Middle of middle, And the last thing to mend. Turn back, Champion...(Er... what was that last word?) Turn back, Champion... (Now string them together.) Turn back, Champion... (Kiss off, Big Boy!) Forswear thy foolish quest. HARRY: Wait, slowly now, And I'll give it a try. That bad man must be A dirty rotten Spy. Then at the end You said something like this: "Er..." was the word, And something 'bout a kiss. Kiss... spy... er-- A Spider! Sphinx, Good-bye! (C'mere Cedric, I got something to show ya!) SPHINX: Turn back, Champion; Forswear thy foolish quest. To reach the Cup My riddle must be guessed. Guess right, pass on; Guess wrong and I attack. Guess not at all, And I let you go back. Turn back, Champion Turn back, Champion Turn back, Champion Forswear thy foolish quest! HARRY AND CEDRIC: Bye-Bye, Sphinxie! From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 5 08:35:35 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 08:35:35 -0000 Subject: Voldemort....muggle...hmmm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57006 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > James Said: > Okay... Voldie has a muggle father- tom riddle, and a witch > mother... doesnt that make him somewhat of a mudblood because he is > half and half? So that would mean he isnt pure-blood...shouldn't he > be killing himself then>? > > JOe said: > But yes, You are correct that he's not a pureblood. So it is >funny that he hates those like him and those of muggle blood. Valk Says: I do believe that "Voldie" explains himself per se by his insistence that it is a terrible injustice that the Heir of Slytherin was born a Half Blood. and further he reinforces his loathing of the Muggle kind with his tragic story of abandonment and discrimination on the part of his Muggle Father. Voldemort is quite mentally unstable and I believe that in a way this character actually believes that he has disinherited himself from his muggle father. Perhaps he even conjured some actual ritual disinheritance? In any case he openly rejects his muggle identity and so in some way satisfies a criteria of Wizard purity. By proxy a lack of identification with the muggle world he is less a muggleblood? TheValk Footnote: NB the term "deliberate error" quote JK Rowling in an online chat interview. She used this to describe an error pointed out to her, by one of this very group's members. Was Voldemort a descendent or ancestor of Salazar Slytherin? I will quote Ollivander here to make my point more relevant. "He who must not be named did GREAT things.... Terrible, Yes.. But GREAT." Was he the ancestor or the descendent? Is the House of Slytherin one very large circle created by Voldemort? Spanning ages and time beyond the present reckoning of inexperienced wizards like Harry........... hmmmm now I should exit I am getting too involved in the Wizard World. From jtdogberry at hotmail.com Mon May 5 10:21:17 2003 From: jtdogberry at hotmail.com (jtdogberry) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 10:21:17 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "backstagemystic" wrote: > However, outside of the more obvious frustrations of dealing with > Neville's ineptitude in class, I do theorize that Neville's parents, > particularly Frank Longbottom - who was an auror - may play a part in > Snape's targeting of Neville. SNIP > Given the above revelations, I speculate that it's possible that > Snape may be harboring resentment that possibly stems from some sort > of injustice suffered or witnessed, either directly or indirectly, by > himself or someone he knew, at the hands of Aurors. > > Whether or not Frank Longbottom himself was guilty of such is unknown > to us, but his having been an Auror under Crouch Sr.'s authority in > and of itself may illuminate at least a partial reason as to why > Snape bullies Neville. > > BM I don't think it has anything to do with his father. I think it is to do with Snape's annoyance at Neville for not wanting to be good at potions. This is going back to my W.I.N.C.H post quite a long time back and other post talking about why it is Neville is not achieving his full potential and Snape doesn't like that. Neville's fear of Snape (IMO)is not because his is mean and nasty to him, but because his is everything his is trying NOT to become. Looking at it, Neville has every reason to become biter and twisted like Snape, unpopoular, bullied, lost of his parents, overshadowed by those he considers friends add his gran constantly telling him that he needs to be the avenging angle (which I hope he doesn't become) he is the recipy for being the next Snape but he is trying to avoid that fate and he seeing Snape is a constant reminder of what he can become if he is not careful. I hope that makes sense. Dogberry From Anne at cnous.net Mon May 5 10:27:13 2003 From: Anne at cnous.net (Annechan) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:27:13 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius In-Reply-To: <00bb01c312b0$3e0588c0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <2327EFCF-7EE4-11D7-A8AF-000393447E36@cnous.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57008 Le lundi, 5 mai 2003, ? 04:44 Europe/Paris, Taryn Kimel a ?crit : > > Annechan: >> Snape on the other's way... was intelligent (cf knowing more curses >> than seventh grade students) but not enough to be the first student >> (James was, Sirius was second, and I bet Lily was third) he wasn't a >> headboy (James was) and on the quidditch field, we don't know if he >> played, we just know he's skilled enough to be a referee (anyway James > > Someone said (sorry i can't found who you were) > Hi, > > are you sure about your statement? How do you know there is such a > "category" of intelligence?? > > > Then Taryn said : > I'm going to disagree with that on the basis that I still /am/ in > school (sophomore in high school, to be exact). The top two students > in my class are the top two because they are rather unpopular and > devote mass amounts of time to their schoolwork and sacrificing more > of their social life than others. > (...) > I'd also like to know where those ranks (James, Sirius, Lily) came > from. I don't recall them in the books, but maybe I've being silly. > You've said that Lily is just personal speculation, which I think is > pretty unfounded because we know about five people from that class, > but I'd like to know about the James and Sirius ranks. I've always > thought of Snape as a Hermione-type in his school days, but the type > who would grow mean at teasing instead of crying. I would speculate > Snape could've been a second to James' first. > Oh my fault really, I didn't reply at the first person about the category of intelligence nor did i quote the scene for a certainly bad reason : laziness and obviousness (which should not take for granted) . The rank I was talking about isn't a popularity rank. So I assumed that it was about school's grade and academic values. And I didn't say that school is the best way to know someone's intelligence (but rather his attitude to live with the school rules). But a top student, in a school's POV is almost all the time intelligent. Hermione has top marks in every class, she is the first student in her year. now the two quotes I based my ranked thing never mention any number. PS (soft cover bloomsbury) p64; The Keeper of the Keys: Hagrid says 'Now, yer mum an' dad were as good a witch an' wizard as I ever knew. Head Boy an' Girl at Hogwarts in their day! Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before.(...)" and PoA (soft cover bloomsbury) p221; The Marauder's Map : McGonagall says "Precisely, Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, of course --- exceptionally bright, in fact ---(...)" I know it's a bad deduction, but I always believed that Head Boy was a distinction that you give to the best student (regardless of their house). It's not a popularity contest, since Percy is a Head Boy (once again I may assume wrongly that he is not popular). It's not based on a quidditch value, since Charlie wasn't a Head Boy, but only a quidditch captain. "exceptionally bright" doesn't mean "best". But since I always believed (I'm not so sure right now) that Head Boy means top marks, I did believe that James and Sirius were top students. Like Lily who was Head Girl. After all they managed to be animagus, that's not an easy thing. Harry may be a powerful wizard, everytime I read the books, I'm always under the feeling that Hermione saved the day with her knowledge Admitting Snape was academically better than Potter, he could be still jealous. Personal and trivial example is not the truth, but my marks weren't top, I was in the top five students of my class but never better than rank 4 or 5. There was a better student than me who just can't admit (and they dislike me because of that) that I rarely did my homework, always missing days at school without real reasons and still have good marks without much effort than being here. Snape may be like Hermione, they are really good in school, because they do work a lot. James on the hand was exceptionally bright AND popular. Quidditch demands a lot of time. there's practice several times per week, plus Head Boy duties, plus being exceptionally bright, plus finding times playing pranks and creating the marauder's map, plus being an animangus... and the list goes on. IMHO James is disliked by Snape, maybe not because he was first student (as I wrote earlier) but because James had everything without apparently much effort than being here. Snape, better at school by his hard work (or by his cunning slytherin tricks *wink*), could hate James for having maybe less good mark. That feeling of bitterness seems ridiculous, because afterall when you're the best, you're the best but I think it's kind of annoying seeing lazy people win the show. Because to my eyes working hard to get a mark, even a bad one" is much more better than being intelligent. Annechan From chrissilein at yahoo.com Mon May 5 10:24:19 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Christiane Hendriksen) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 03:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as DADA substitute (Was: Poor KnowItAll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505102419.99213.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57009 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura" > > wrote:> > > > 2) Snape openly criticizes the teacher he is > substituting for, > which > is very unprofessional. There is no need to > do so. Hi, you are right with that, indeed. I dont like his behaviour towards Lupin at all, too. I work with kids and I know what it means to critizise a colleque in front of the kids. Thats indeed bad done of him. But he had his reaosons (even I think it wasnt wise to act in this way ). Lupin did the same mistake, too. He made Snape ridiculous when he gave his "patronous-boggart" lesson to the kids. Not kind done. They are both two ambitious young mean, former schoolrivals and they seem to have problems with each other, as we all know. I would recommand Hogwarts a well qualified supervisior, hahaha. Dont worry be happy!!! Chrissi __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From heidit at netbox.com Mon May 5 11:42:19 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 07:42:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57010 > Darrin wrote: > -- Thinking that any "good" Slytherin who dares show his face would > get a Leg-Locker put on him by Draco. Oh, did he do that in your book after the farewell feast in GoF? You know, the one where every Slytherin, including Draco, stood to toast Cedric, and where Draco was one of only a few in his house to not stand and toast Harry. I think, Darrin, that you and others on this list are using a very broad brush on the entire house that is not yet guaranteed by canon. Sort of like Ron's initial reactions to giant and werewolves, perhaps? From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 11:51:43 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 11:51:43 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <005b01c312b6$86802a00$14ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57011 Kelly quoted my factual mistake: > > "There is much that I would like to say to you all tonight," said > Dumbledore, "but I must first acknowledge the loss of a very fine person, > who should be sitting here," he gestured toward the Hufflepuffs, "enjoying > our feast with us. I would like you all, please, to stand, and raise your > glasses, to Cedric Diggory." > They did it, *all* of them; the benches scraped as *everyone* in the > Hall stood, and raised their goblets, and echoed, in one loud, low, rumbling > voice, "Cedric Diggory." (p. 721 U.S. edition) Yes, they DID stand for Cedric. I mistakenly thought some, including Draco and his cronies, had not. Instead, "many" of the Slyths refused to stand for Harry. Which just goes to support the whole "All Slytherins are bad" statement as being a stereotype. I as well am hoping that the stereotypes each House has of the > other are broken down and the students made to realize that, when it comes > down to it, people are just people. Again, since we still have evidence of the entire Slyth team cheating at Quidditch, some of them sarcastically putting down Harry for losing points, and some of them making snake faces at him after the Parselmouth thing, I still maintain that we have a trend, rather than a stereotype. And, although I realize that this is not meant to be the story of the Slyths, the fact that no other Slyth steps in to rein in Draco as he gets more and more outrageous tells me that they either tacitly agree or are too cowardly to say anything. Either way, I'm not inclined to regard them favorably. As for the "people are just people" lessons, well, I hope the Slyths have front-row seats for those lessons. It was old Salazar who left behind a giant, Muggle-killing snake because he didn't want anyone but purebloods attending school. And those lessons have carried down in prominent Slytherins -- Riddle, the Malfoys -- since then. Their very password is "pureblood" in CoS. People ARE just people. And people who loudly call for the death of Muggle-borns and Muggle-lovers are people who are slimeballs. Darrin -- Sometimes good is good and bad is bad. From t.forch at mail.dk Mon May 5 11:55:11 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:55:11 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS In-Reply-To: <20030505114247.BAQD29833.fepD.post.tele.dk@n23.grp.scd.yah oo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505135002.02d21920@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57012 At 07:42 05-05-03 -0400, Heidi Tandy wrote: > > Darrin wrote: > > > -- Thinking that any "good" Slytherin who dares show his face would > > get a Leg-Locker put on him by Draco. > > >Oh, did he do that in your book after the farewell feast in GoF? You know, >the one where every Slytherin, including Draco, stood to toast Cedric, and >where Draco was one of only a few in his house to not stand and toast Harry. GoF-37: "But, through a gap in the standing figures, Harry saw that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and many of the other Slytherins had remained defiantly in their seats, their goblets untouched" Doesn't sound like 'a few' to me. But of course he - or any of the many other Slytherins who remained seated, didn't rebuke or punish those standing for participating in the toast Dumbledore suggested - especially not right in front of Dumbledore himself. Who knows if Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle when they arrive at Harry et. Al.'s train compartment have just finished a punitive expedition to deal with all the offensive Slytherins (no, I don't think so, but I can't see how it could be refuted). Troels From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 11:58:03 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 11:58:03 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > > Darrin wrote: > > > -- Thinking that any "good" Slytherin who dares show his face would > > get a Leg-Locker put on him by Draco. > > > Oh, did he do that in your book after the farewell feast in GoF? You know, the one where every Slytherin, including Draco, stood to toast Cedric, and where Draco was one of only a few in his house to not stand and toast Harry. > > I think, Darrin, that you and others on this list are using a very broad brush on the entire house that is not yet guaranteed by canon. Sort of like Ron's initial reactions to giant and werewolves, perhaps? Show me a case where a Slyth has done something decent and I don't count standing for Cedric. The entire school stood up, almost reflexively, BEFORE they found out Voldemort was behind it, at which point Draco and many others started showing their true colors. I wonder how many would have stood had Dumbledore started with "Voldemort is back and he killed Cedric Diggory."? Besides, as I say in another post, so long as the Slyths follow Draco, and fail to rein him in, they ARE tainted in some ways. So far, Snape is the exception and Draco is the rule. When that is overturned by future canon, I'll reconsider. Darrin -- Rather invite a werewolf to dinner than a Slytherin From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Mon May 5 11:55:44 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 11:55:44 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA substitute (Was: Poor KnowItAll) In-Reply-To: <20030505102419.99213.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57014 Chrissi wrote: > I don?t like his > behaviour towards Lupin at all, too. I work with kids > and I know what it means to critizise a colleque in > front of the kids. That?s indeed bad done of him. But > he had his reaosons (even I think it wasn?t wise to > act in this way ). Lupin did the same mistake, too. He > made Snape ridiculous when he gave his > "patronous-boggart" lesson to the kids. > Me(Linda): That really wasn't Lupin's doing. The shape of the boggart was what Neville feared most, which happenes to be Snape. Lupin had no control over the choice; for that matter neither did Neville. Lupin did suggest how to make Neville's boggart comical, but if he didn't Neville would have failed the lesson. Is he just supposed to skip boggarts because of what someone in the class might be afraid of? He didn't even know Neville well enough by that point to guess at what his fear might have been. I don't think we can fault Lupin for this one. -Linda From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 13:03:42 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:03:42 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA substitute (Was: Poor KnowItAll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57015 Linda wrote: That really wasn't Lupin's doing. The shape of the boggart > was what Neville feared most, which happenes to be Snape. Lupin had > no control over the choice; for that matter neither did Neville. > Lupin did suggest how to make Neville's boggart comical, but if he > didn't Neville would have failed the lesson. Is he just supposed to > skip boggarts because of what someone in the class might be afraid > of? He didn't even know Neville well enough by that point to guess at > what his fear might have been. I don't think we can fault Lupin for > this one. > Welllll... I think we CAN fault Lupin a bit, because he drew Neville out with a pretty good idea who his greatest fear would be. But I also think Snape got what was coming to him. Remember, he insulted Neville, in front of the class, in front of the new teacher, saying, (paraphrasing) "Longbottom can't do anything without Miss Granger whispering in his ear." Look, Neville is hopeless in Potions and Snape has the right, and responsibility, as his teacher, to push him harder. I don't think fear is an effective teaching tool, not in the long run. But Neville is very good in Herbology and apparently not half-bad in Defense Against the Dark Arts, so Snape's warning to Lupin was just mean. Snape was, once again, out of line, in this case. Darrin -- Who among us hasn't imagined a teacher in a ridiculous outfit? From Zugzwang_0 at hotmail.com Mon May 5 12:39:53 2003 From: Zugzwang_0 at hotmail.com (ecceq) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:39:53 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57016 >This all leads to another question. > >Hogwarts is THE school in Britain, and on par with the best schools >in Europe. Why the hell can't they attract a better quality of >teacher? > >Yeah, yeah, it's not a real school. But still, one would think >professors would fight to teach at Hogwarts. Instead, Dumbledore >seems to be left with the dregs. > >Darrin I agree it does seem a little odd. But then it does appear that there is no formal teacher training requirement for the teachers, that is, they appear not to need to have a professional teaching qualification. Which is certainly consistant with the hiring of staff for public schools (though not state ones). And if there isn't enough of an interest in teaching for it to be worthwhile to have a course to train them, it could be that isn't enough interest in vacant positions at Hogwarts to have to the option of choosing a better candidate. Also, if Hogwarts is the only school in Britain it may be that not very many people consider teaching as an option because possibility of actually getting a job is severely limited by the number of positions vacant at just one school. Also, in the cases of Lockhart and Quirrell: Lockhart seems to have been hired largely on the strength of his reputation and assumed 'practical' experience in the field and certainly seemed to have had a large body of written work to support the notion that he at least knew what he was talking about, even if his books were written in a self agrandising way. Quirrell had been competent until he took the sabatical where he 'picked up' Voldemort. Or as Hagrid says, //He was fine while he was studyin' outa books but then he took a year off ter get some first handand experience// PS, pg 55 Besides, surely we can assume that the other teachers at Hogwarts are competent...? Ecce-Q Solipsism Warning: The consumer should be aware that he or she may be the only entity in the universe, and therefore that any percieved defects in product quality are the consumer's own fault. From drdara at yahoo.com Mon May 5 13:53:55 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 06:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who sat down during End of Feast in GOF (was Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) Message-ID: <20030505135355.10308.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57017 > Oh, did he do that in your book after the farewell > feast in GoF? You know, the one where every > Slytherin, including Draco, stood to toast Cedric, > and where Draco was one of only a few in his house > to not stand and toast Harry. > > I think, Darrin, that you and others on this list > are using a very broad brush on the entire house > that is not yet guaranteed by canon. Sort of like > Ron's initial reactions to giant and werewolves, > perhaps? > Danielle here, American Edition GOF Paperback page 723, " They murmured his name, as they had murmured Cedric's, and drank to him. But through the gap in the standing figures, Harry saw that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and many of the other Slytherins remained defiantly in their seats, goblets untouched. " This first quote staes that many other Slytherin stayed in their seats. Sounds as if it was almost half the house that stayed sitting. Page 721 After Dumbledore asks them to raise their glasses to Cedric it says "They did it all, all of them; benches scraped as everyonein the Hall stood, and raised their goblets, and echoed, in one loud, low, rumbling voice, "Cedric Diggory." Based on these 2 quotes, it seems like they toasted Cedric but stayed down for Harry. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon May 5 14:01:28 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:01:28 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57018 Derannimer: > I personally go all Hurt-Comfort on Snape rather than on Sirius > because. . . oh, I don't know. Sirius is a Good Guy--people wuv >him, and he didn't really do anything all that wrong, and he's >getting his act together quite nicely in GOF, and he's probably >going to wind up quite happy at the end of the series. Although >possibly heroically dead. Hurt-Comfort, huh? Oh, I just *love* Hurt-Comfort! It's just so much nicer than thinking of myself as all -- well, you know -- *Twisted.* I'm not Twisted. I just have a really bad case of Hurt-Comfort, that's all. Still, though . . . If we're all going to be Twis -- er, Hurt-Comfort fans, then we need some sort of pecking order among the male HP characters. There are so many possible Hurt-Comfort objects in HP, but have we ever actually ranked them? Is it even possible to rank them? Of *course* it is! You can rank anything if you try hard enough. I submit the following ranking of the male HP characters: 1. Lupin. Lupin wins, hands down. A few gray hairs, just to show how much *stress* the poor man has suffered. He has to endure this hideous and painful transformation every month unless he drinks a nasty potion prepared by his blood enemy Snape. The poor guy can't even prepare his own potion -- how pathetic is *that.* He can't find paid work. He's poor, what with his tattered robes that any woman with a needle and thread could fix up for him. And we'd *never* let him out of the house with peeling letters on his briefcase. 2. Sirius. Handsome is good. Handsome is *always* helpful. Picture him lying there in Azkaban, scratching little tally marks on the walls. And for what? He's not going anywhere. The guilt, the awful, never-ending *guilt.* 3. Harry. Sorry. No crushing on underage boys allowed. 4. Krum. Took a bludger to the face and is duckfooted as well. Maybe OK for those who prefer the strong, silent type. ::shudder:: 5. Pettigrew. We have to consider all the possibilities, do we not? He certainly gets hurt, what with the hand thing, but maybe self-inflicted wounds don't count. And you just know that Pettigrew will rise up against Voldemort one of these days, when Voldemort least expects it. After all, Pettigrew really is the low-hanging fruit -- there wouldn't be much competition for him, as no one seems to want him. 6. Moody. Elkins says the gnarled old mentor never qualifies as a Hurt-Comfort object. Who am I to argue? ;-) 7. Crouch Sr. So dignified, yet reduced to a crazed wreck of a wizard. We know he has probably endured lots of abuse from Wormtail and Voldemort. Still, we don't actually *see* any of that abuse, and I for one was quite disappointed. Perhaps Eileen can explain the attraction to Crouch Sr.? 8. Snape. I must take issue with the idea that Snape's allure is based on Hurt-Comfort. We hardly ever see Snape get physically injured -- just the thing with Fluffy, IIRC. Snape suffers lots of indignities -- people don't listen to him, for instance. But that's hardly Hurt-Comfort. I think women lust after Snape for another reason entirely -- he's a challenge, a conquest-in-waiting! Oh, if you can get Snape to love you, then you are without question supremely loveable. Sorry, Derannimer, I'm not giving you Hurt- Comfort!Snape. Not yet, anyway. I wish I could, as I suspect you dearly want him, but I just can't. ;-) Cindy -- also has not found herself in a string of Bent relationships, unless she's doing the Bending From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon May 5 14:30:27 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:30:27 -0000 Subject: The ancient magic of gifts In-Reply-To: <3EB569D6.84E14687@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pat and Jim Gruenke wrote: > Now, I'm not so sure about Arabella being a secret keeper. I think > there's something else entirely going on with Harry, the "ancient > magic" that DD talked about, and JKR hasn't explained how it works > yet. I've been finding myself wondering if the Dursleys' miserable Christmas presents to Harry are part of this same ancient magic, that somehow the giving of a gift, even one so slight as a tissue, confers some kind of protection on the recipient, at least if given by a relative. Presumably gift-giving is not something the Dursleys would have done on their own, no more so than they would have taken care of Harry in the first place. But I assume Dumbledore's original letter to them was persuasive. And let us not that some other gifts in the story have semi-magical powers. I'm thinking particularly of the gift of clothing to a house-elf, though there may be others. Ersatz Harry From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 5 15:41:59 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:41:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as DADA substitute (Was: Poor KnowItAll) References: Message-ID: <000601c3131c$de661570$01ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57020 > Linda wrote: > > > That really wasn't Lupin's doing. The shape of the boggart > > was what Neville feared most, which happenes to be Snape. Lupin had > > no control over the choice; for that matter neither did Neville. > > Lupin did suggest how to make Neville's boggart comical, but if he > > didn't Neville would have failed the lesson. Is he just supposed to > > skip boggarts because of what someone in the class might be afraid > > of? He didn't even know Neville well enough by that point to guess > at > > what his fear might have been. I don't think we can fault Lupin for > > this one. > > > Darrin continued: > > Welllll... I think we CAN fault Lupin a bit, because he drew Neville > out with a pretty good idea who his greatest fear would be. But I > also think Snape got what was coming to him. > > Remember, he insulted Neville, in front of the class, in front of the > new teacher, saying, (paraphrasing) "Longbottom can't do anything > without Miss Granger whispering in his ear." > > Look, Neville is hopeless in Potions and Snape has the right, and > responsibility, as his teacher, to push him harder. I don't think > fear is an effective teaching tool, not in the long run. > > But Neville is very good in Herbology and apparently not half-bad in > Defense Against the Dark Arts, so Snape's warning to Lupin was just > mean. Snape was, once again, out of line, in this case. Ok, Lupin and his class walk into the teacher's lounge and say they're there to take on the boggart. Snape leaves, saying the line quoted above about Neville. He has just insulted a student to another teacher in front of that student. Pretty unprofessional, in my opinion. Lupin does probably the best thing to both point out to Snape his unprofessionalism and to attempt to boost Neville's self-esteem. Instead of saying nothing or taking Snape's head off for insulting Neville (which is a conversation best left in private and not conducted in front of a class), Lupin automatically thinks, "You're singling this student out and saying he sucks, well, in that case, he's the first student I'm going to use. I'm going to set him up to succeed, and prove to both him and you that you are just wrong." Honestly, I don't think he sat there and thought, "Oh, Neville's afraid of Snape. Here's a chance to make Snape a laughingstock." I think what he did was simply a reaction to Snape's comment and with Neville's welfare in mind. I think he would have done the same thing if Ron had been the student Snape picked on. Perhaps not Harry, since what he believed to be Harry's worst fear is something that is a LOT of people's worst fear, and he does not want to start a panic. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon May 5 15:43:37 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:43:37 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57021 imamommy wrote: > >>Why is Snape the thing that scares Neville the most? Is it only > due to his treatment of Neville at school? Or is it possible that > Snape was the DE who performed Cruciatus on the Longbottoms, and > Neville has a supressed memory of this? At any rate, why is Snape > so hard on Neville?<< "backstagemystic" wrote: > In the "Pensieve" chapter of GoF, it's made clear that the attacks > on the Longbottoms took place *after* Voldemort's fall; whereas, > it's also made clear in the same chapter that Snape had turned spy > for Dumbledore before said fall...so, I don't believe Snape was > involved in that. Right. It's made clear that it's Crouch, Jr., the Lestranges and an unnamed man whom Harry would surely recognize if it were Snape, so even if we didn't know about Snape being a spy before the fall, this wouldn't fit. "backstagemystic" wrote: > However, outside of the more obvious frustrations of dealing with > Neville's ineptitude in class, I do theorize that Neville's > parents, particularly Frank Longbottom - who was an auror - may > play a part in Snape's targeting of Neville. I've thought this before, and it makes sense, considering that we already know of one instance of Snape carrying over hate for a father (James Potter) to a son (Harry). Inasmuch as a DE would have very good reasons to fear or resent an Auror, it is even more plausible. (If Frank Longbottom drove the Knight Bus, it would make little or no sense, for instance.) "backstagemystic" wrote: > Again in the same chapter, Dumbledore tells Harry (in reagard to > the trial of Crouch Jr. and the 3 DE's with him), "Unfortunately, > the Longbottoms' evidence was - given their conditon - none too > reliable." > > The implication, at least for Crouch Jr., is that some may have > been wrongly imprisoned for acts they did not commit. Not at all. He was merely saying that it was not possible to know 100% what occurred because of the Longbottoms' altered mental states. It is said that young Crouch may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but it's really only an accumulation of circumstantial evidence and his father's overzealous pursuit of dark wizards that makes it seem that Crouch, Jr. might be innocent. First, he seemed to be the only one of the four arrested who was denying his guilt. (I've really had a hard time reconciling this with Voldemort calling him his most faithful servant; he certainly disavowed any relationship with his Master at the trial.) However, I don't know why this should be given much weight; plenty of guilty people plead innocent all the time. Second, the very fact that he was the son of Barty Crouch probably made it seem highly unlikely, to many people, that he would do such a thing. (As an aside--I think that he was also unlikely to be in Slytherin, as that might have contributed to more people thinking he might have been guilty. My guess has always been Ravenclaw.) Third, the way his father went after all four with no mercy and said that he no longer has a son certainly makes it easier to be sympathetic to a nineteen-year-old boy, especially when you see how the whole affair is adversely affecting his mother. In fact, it seems that the 'testimony' of the Longbottoms was probably not taken into account at all during this trial, due to what seemed to be rather cut-and-dried circumstances and the fact that they were a bit gone in the head anyway. "backstagemystic" wrote: > Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of > the Unforgivable Curses against suspects. I would say he became > as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark Side." Right. And when you throw in the crying boy and the fainting mother, the dad really ends up looking like a monster, when he might have had the full measure of his son all along. The above-mentioned acts, however, destroyed his credibility, and the way he sent his son to prison just cemented his dashed reputation. If he truly knew that his son was guilty, he must have really felt frustrated about coming off as the bad guy in this whole scenario. "backstagemystic" wrote: > Given the above revelations, I speculate that it's possible that > Snape may be harboring resentment that possibly stems from some > sort of injustice suffered or witnessed, either directly or > indirectly, by himself or someone he knew, at the hands of Aurors. > > Whether or not Frank Longbottom himself was guilty of such is > unknown to us, but his having been an Auror under Crouch Sr.'s > authority in and of itself may illuminate at least a partial > reason as to why Snape bullies Neville. It seems likely, though, that Frank Longbottom probably had something, even indirectly, to do with his resentment, rather than just the fact that he's an Auror. While Snape dislikes Gryffindors in general, it seems, he REALLY seems to dislike Harry, the son of James Potter. James' "crime," remember, was saving Snape's life. (As far as we know right now--personally, I'm not buying it. There has to be more--much more.) Frank Longbottom may have been present while Snape was being put under Cruciatus by another Auror, or he may even have stopped the other Auror from doing it, thus making Snape beholden to him in the same way he was beholden to James Potter. We already know that Snape does not take this sort of thing well. I believe that we see a little of his dad in Neville when he tries to stop the trio from leaving the common room to go after the stone, in the first book. He's taking a we-must-follow-the-rules-at-all- cost kind of stand, which is a very law-and-order kind of mindset-- rather appropriate for an Auror. This is one reason I'm rather doubtful that any of the trio would ever end up as Aurors. They've learned entirely too well how to break the rules. ;) Perhaps Snape sees another martinet in the making when he looks at Neville, and he's hoping to do something to scare it out of the boy. Think about it--if Neville had actually succeeded in keeping the trio in the common room, what would have happened in Harry's first year? We don't know that Quirrell would have worked out how to get the stone from the mirror, but without Harry there to preempt him, he would have had all the time in the world to try (or at least until Dumbledore returned). Snape has already lived through a time when some people thought only in terms of white and black, good and evil. As a former Slytherin, he was very likely automatically slotted into the 'evil' category, no matter what he may have done for the greater good. In Neville, he may feel like he's seeing Frank Longbottom all over again, and you don't get the impression that he thinks that's a good thing. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 15:48:30 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:48:30 -0000 Subject: The ancient magic of gifts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57022 Ersatz wrote: > > I've been finding myself wondering if the Dursleys' miserable > Christmas presents to Harry are part of this same ancient magic, that > somehow the giving of a gift, even one so slight as a tissue, confers > some kind of protection on the recipient, at least if given by a > relative. Presumably gift-giving is not something the Dursleys would > have done on their own, no more so than they would have taken care of > Harry in the first place. But I assume Dumbledore's original letter > to them was persuasive. > This is an intriguing idea, especially since we are led to believe that Harry never got presents for Christmas while he was growing up at the Dursleys. His reaction to the presents in PS/SS indicates he got nothing for Christmas, BUT he gets something from them while he is away at Hogwarts? Gifts themselves are highlighted throughout the canon. Hermione's gifts to the boys at Christmas (and presumably, theirs to her, although that's not shown) have always seemed to get nice mentions in JKR's writing. Darrin -- My guess is that Harry and Ron had to seriously scramble that first Christmas morning when they realized Hermione had gotten them something. From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Mon May 5 15:21:16 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:21:16 -0000 Subject: Snape as DADA substitute (Was: Poor KnowItAll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57023 > Linda (me)wrote: > > > That really wasn't Lupin's doing. The shape of the boggart > > was what Neville feared most, which happenes to be Snape. Lupin had > > no control over the choice; for that matter neither did Neville. > > Lupin did suggest how to make Neville's boggart comical, but if he > > didn't Neville would have failed the lesson. Is he just supposed to > > skip boggarts because of what someone in the class might be afraid > > of? He didn't even know Neville well enough by that point to guess > at > > what his fear might have been. I don't think we can fault Lupin for > > this one. Darrin replied: > Welllll... I think we CAN fault Lupin a bit, because he drew Neville > out with a pretty good idea who his greatest fear would be. But I > also think Snape got what was coming to him. > > Remember, he insulted Neville, in front of the class, in front of the > new teacher, saying, (paraphrasing) "Longbottom can't do anything > without Miss Granger whispering in his ear. Now me(Linda again): This take on the scene actually gives me even more respect for Lupin. I still don't think that what he did was aimed at Snape. It seems more likely to me that he is making an effort to bolster Neville's self confidence after he has been insulted in a very public way by another teacher. From what we know of Lupin's personality, the kind of snide behavior that Snape exhibits is just not his style. -Linda From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Mon May 5 16:50:29 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:50:29 -0000 Subject: No magic outside school Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57024 Sorry if this has already been discussed... Petunia Dursley grew up with Lily, and presumably knew that she wasn't allowed to do magic outside of school. (Although I'm sure Lily was very clever, I doubt she could keep the secret for seven years.) Why did Petunia never share this information with Vernon or Dudley? Vernon forbid Harry to do any magic, and maybe she's content to let her husband believe he's in charge of the situation. But she knows Harry is teasing Dudley. (US CoS p. 9-10) It seems odd that she wouldn't put a stop to that with a few words to Dudley. It's possible she thinks the ban isn't important because she's so afraid Harry will use magic anyway, but even if she thought Harry would just ignore the ban, it seems like she would have told her family how he was *supposed* to behave. Any ideas? ~Diane who's signing off to do some of the chores Petunia made Harry do that day... From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 5 16:03:15 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:03:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) References: Message-ID: <000e01c3131f$d73e15b0$01ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57025 >Kelly (me) wrote: > > Which just goes to support the whole "All Slytherins are bad" > statement as being a stereotype. I as well am hoping that the > stereotypes each House has of the > > other are broken down and the students made to realize that, when > it comes > > down to it, people are just people. > Darrin replied: > Again, since we still have evidence of the entire Slyth team cheating > at Quidditch, some of them sarcastically putting down Harry for > losing points, and some of them making snake faces at him after the > Parselmouth thing, I still maintain that we have a trend, rather than > a stereotype. > > And, although I realize that this is not meant to be the story of the > Slyths, the fact that no other Slyth steps in to rein in Draco as he > gets more and more outrageous tells me that they either tacitly agree > or are too cowardly to say anything. Either way, I'm not inclined to > regard them favorably. > Ok, on this I will agree: many students in Slytherin hate Harry Potter. Hating one person does not necessarily mean they are evil. But, for the sake of argument, let's just say that all of the Slytherins who have done these things against Harry and/or didn't stand to toast Harry at the feast are the future generation of DE's. Well, then are you going to say all those students who *did* toast Harry are bad people as well? Let's say the same people who drank to Harry also never stopped their fellow Slytherins from taunting Harry in the halls (can't really control the Quidditch team on the field). To me, that *still* does not make them bad. Maybe they are afraid of Draco. After all, many in the wizarding world seem to be afraid of Lucius. The Malfoy family has a reputation for not being messed with. These kids might have a reason for not wanting to cross a Malfoy. The smaller ones could be afraid of being beaten up by Crabbe and Goyle. Then again, some of these kids might just feel it's not their place to interfere. To me, these kids could be found guilty of not stopping some of the stuff that's been going on. Put them in the same boat as many of the WW adults, then. This, however, does not tell me these kids are therefore rotten to the core. I actually think it telling that some of the Slytherins *did* stand and drink to Harry, in spite of what Draco and the others did. > As for the "people are just people" lessons, well, I hope the Slyths > have front-row seats for those lessons. > > It was old Salazar who left behind a giant, Muggle-killing snake > because he didn't want anyone but purebloods attending school. And > those lessons have carried down in prominent Slytherins -- Riddle, > the Malfoys -- since then. Their very password is "pureblood" in CoS. > > People ARE just people. And people who loudly call for the death of > Muggle-borns and Muggle-lovers are people who are slimeballs. I agree with you. But there is no proof that the kids cited above are guilty of this, either. I have severe problems believing that 25% of a student body is automatically geared to be evil just because of what House they're placed in. To automatically believe that of every single last child simply because s/he bears the name Slytherin is evil itself. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 17:29:33 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:29:33 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <000e01c3131f$d73e15b0$01ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57026 Kelly wrote: > > Ok, on this I will agree: many students in Slytherin hate Harry Potter. > Hating one person does not necessarily mean they are evil. But, for the sake of argument, let's just say that all of the Slytherins who have done these things against Harry and/or didn't stand to toast Harry at the feast are the future generation of DE's. Well, then are you going to say all those students who *did* toast Harry are bad people as well? Let's say the same people who drank to Harry also never stopped their fellow Slytherins from taunting Harry in the halls (can't really control the Quidditch team on the field). To me, that *still* does not make them bad. Maybe they are afraid of Draco. After all, many in the wizarding world seem to be afraid > of Lucius. The Malfoy family has a reputation for not being messed with. > These kids might have a reason for not wanting to cross a Malfoy. The smaller ones could be afraid of being beaten up by Crabbe and Goyle. Then again, some of these kids might just feel it's not their place to interfere. > To me, these kids could be found guilty of not stopping some of the stuff that's been going on. Put them in the same boat as many of the WW adults, then. This, however, does not tell me these kids are therefore rotten to the core. I actually think it telling that some of the Slytherins *did* stand and drink to Harry, in spite of what Draco and the others did. > Martin Luther King Jr. said that all evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing. And I never said that the Slyths thought as one unit. Draco and MANY others sat down when Dumbledore was praising Harry's courage -- a courageous act that included bringing back Cedric's body, who the Slyths allegedly were SO mournful for, expressed by standing up when everyone else did. Who is to say the other Slyths just didn't think of it and privately said, "oh, yeah, good one, Draco?" Or that they WANTED to sit down, but didn't have the guts to in front of Dumbledore? That works just as well as being afraid of the Malfoys or just having a policy of non-interference. > > As for the "people are just people" lessons, well, I hope the Slyths > > have front-row seats for those lessons. > > > > It was old Salazar who left behind a giant, Muggle-killing snake > > because he didn't want anyone but purebloods attending school. And > > those lessons have carried down in prominent Slytherins -- Riddle, > > the Malfoys -- since then. Their very password is "pureblood" in CoS. > > > > People ARE just people. And people who loudly call for the death ofMuggle-borns and Muggle-lovers are people who are slimeballs. > I agree with you. But there is no proof that the kids cited above are guilty of this, either. > But again, they are calling friend someone who says that. They are no better than the white folks who hid in their homes and said, "Well, it's not my place to stop a lynching?" Understandable that they would be afraid? Absolutely. Admirable? Definitely not. What was that about it taking a great deal of courage to stand up to your friends? Maybe that's why Dumbledore put Neville over the top in PS/SS, to send a message to any "good" Slyths that they should not suffer a Draco in their midst. But so far, they've wussed out. And yeah, it tarnishes them in my eyes. > I have severe problems believing that 25% of a student body is automatically > geared to be evil just because of what House they're placed in. To > automatically believe that of every single last child simply because s/he bears the name Slytherin is evil itself. > Who picks the Slyths? The essence of Salazar Slytherin himself, the same guy who despised what he felt as a lower class so much that he left behind a monster to kill them. And I never said the kids were evil. I said they were nasty. But go ahead, call me evil if it makes you feel better. I prefer to deal with the facts at hand. And the facts are that, other than Snape's conversion to Dumbledore's side, we have no concrete examples of a Slytherin doing anything decent, and Snape seems to be taking out that decent act on any Gryffindor within snarling distance. Darrin From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 5 16:29:26 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:29:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville/Memory Charms References: Message-ID: <003001c31323$7f97e530$01ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57027 From: "annemehr" > > > Annemehr: > Actually, the "twelve O.W.L.s" quote was from the Chapter called "The > Madness of Mr. Crouch", where Crouch escapes from Wormtail and makes > his way to Hogwarts and Harry sees him by the forest. So, he says it > when Harry is fourteen, and he is raving. An excerpt from this rather > long passage gives you the gist: > > "Thank you, Weatherby, and when you have done that, I would like > a cup of tea. My wife and son will be arriving shortly, we are > attending a concert tonight with Mr. and Mrs. Fudge." > > Crouch was now talking fluently to a tree again, and seemed > completely unaware that Harry was there, which surprised Harry so > much he didn't notice that Crouch had released him. > > "Yes, My son has recently gained twelve O.W.L.s, most > satisfactory, yes, thank you, yes, very proud indeed. ... > > So, it can have nothing to do with figuring out how old Neville was at > the time of his parents' torture, I'm afraid. Ok, you're right. Thanks for looking that up. Back to the drawing board for the Neville situation. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon May 5 17:59:55 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:59:55 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lynn's questions References: <1052099730.5915.73461.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001501c31330$231766c0$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 57028 Lynn wrote: >1. Now that Percy is working, is he paying his >parents room and board? Is that why he thinks >everyone in the house has to be very quiet and >why he doesn't have to share his room in GoF? Given the Weasleys' tight financial situation, it would seem likely that Molly and Arthur would want some sort of contribution out of his salary. Not that the MoM pays very much. Arthur himself is pretty senior but the family isn't well off. Bagman (who is even more senior) is chronically unable to pay his debts. And I think there's a reference in Fantastic Beasts that the author wrote the book to supplement his salary in the Ministry (someone will doubtless correct me if I'm wrong on that...) >2. At what age do wizards move out from mummy >and daddy's and get their own place? I think that depends on what you believe about the "Hogwarts numbers question". If you take one end of the discussion and consider that _all_ WW children go there, then, given the lack of further or higher education, they probably move out when they get a job at age 18 (or hang around if they can't find anywhere suitable to live, can't be arsed to do their own laundry, or any of the other reasons teenagers don't move out!) But alternatively, if you accept the other end of the discussion, that only some WW children go to Hogwarts and the others go into things like apprenticeships, then the traditional age for children to do this in England was in early teenage. The child would be bound apprentice and would go to live in the master's house where they would stay during the traditional 7 years' apprenticeship. It's my favourite for the WW (given my stance on the numbers question). >3. Are there special wizard realtors or do >wizards have to deal with Muggle realtors when >they want to buy a house? I don't think they would deal with Muggles unless they wanted to take a house out of the Muggle world. If they did, there would certainly have to be a lot of magical confusion scattered, to make sure that the house disappeared totally from the various Muggle records like the Land Registry, the Council Tax register, the voting list register, etc, etc. But I suspect that wizards pay cash. Alternatively, perhaps wizards build their own homes, or have them built for them (my wholly non-canonical suggestion is that you would buy in the goblins to do your building for you). The big problem with a Muggle home would be that it's built with technology rather than magic, there's eckeltricity in all the rooms, the stairs go straight up and down, the rooms are the same size inside as out, something to tax even a wizardly Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen in converting it :-) I'll leave your other questions for others... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Mon May 5 18:16:08 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hurt Comfort Crouch Sr. -There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505181608.80052.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57029 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > 7. Crouch Sr. So dignified, yet reduced to a > crazed wreck of a > wizard. We know he has probably endured lots of > abuse from Wormtail > and Voldemort. Still, we don't actually *see* any > of that abuse, > and I for one was quite disappointed. Perhaps > Eileen can explain > the attraction to Crouch Sr.? Gladly! He's absolutely heart-broken in that last scene. "My fault.. all my fault." How can one not be touched? And he gets a redemption scene! (c.f. Elkins) One doesn't even have to feel guilty about hurt-comfort here, unlike with a certain Severus Snape, or even Sirius "He deserved it because his hair was oily!" Black. > 8. Snape. I must take issue with the idea that > Snape's allure is > based on Hurt-Comfort. We hardly ever see Snape get > physically > injured -- just the thing with Fluffy, IIRC. Snape > suffers lots of > indignities -- people don't listen to him, for > instance. But that's > hardly Hurt-Comfort. I think women lust after Snape > for another > reason entirely -- he's a challenge, a > conquest-in-waiting! Oh, if > you can get Snape to love you, then you are without > question > supremely loveable. Sorry, Derannimer, I'm not > giving you Hurt- > Comfort!Snape. Not yet, anyway. I'm not a bent!Snapefan, but I think those who are go weak in the knees over the Egg and the Eye scene. He's suffering mentally! And emotionally! But you've excluded Avery from the list Cindy, why? He's tortured on screen. And he's an emotional wreck. And he's suitably docile to respond to the directions of the hurt-comfort fixated. As proved on TBAY actually. ;-) Eileen, who has so far successfully avoided the bent relationships, though she must admit that most of her real-life flirtations were rather bent ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Mon May 5 18:25:25 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:25:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] No magic outside school References: Message-ID: <007701c31333$b32b3900$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57030 Diane wrote: > Sorry if this has already been discussed... > Petunia Dursley grew up with Lily, and presumably > knew that she wasn't allowed to do magic outside > of school. (Although I'm sure Lily was very > clever, I doubt she could keep the secret for seven > years.) Why did Petunia never share this information > with Vernon or Dudley? Well, this is just further proof of the theory that the magical restriction of underage wizards is, indeed, a crock - something that a DE set up to scare Harry into not using Magic outside of Hogwarts. I'm not sure who came up with the theory - i simply remember it being mentioned a few weeks back, and it made perfect sense to me. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From indyattic at earthlink.net Mon May 5 17:22:08 2003 From: indyattic at earthlink.net (indyattic) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:22:08 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57031 imamommy amazingly had time to write: "What I find so greatly amusing about the stuff with Trelawney is the side it brings out in McGonagall. As a matter of fact, it shows up a nice similarity between Hermione and McGonagall. It makes me think Hermione is very fortunate to have her as Head of House." An earlier post suggested that Hermione was perhaps better suited to Ravenclaw. This post led me 'round to thinking that perhaps that the McGonagall relationship is the very reason the Sorting Hat placed her in McGonagall's house, instead of the seemingly logical Ravenclaw. Angie From rachel_harrigan at hotmail.com Mon May 5 16:33:05 2003 From: rachel_harrigan at hotmail.com (rachel_harrigan) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:33:05 -0000 Subject: New Animagi's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57032 Hello everyone, I am new to the group so please forgive me if I post something that has previously been discussed. If I am correct, in G.O.F Hermione tells Ron and Harry that there are only a few registered Animagi. The only registered Animagi that I can think of is McGonagoll. J.Potter, Black, Pettigrew and Skeeter are illegal ones. So the other day I asked myself...who are the other registered animagi? Surely these will be discussed in the next books. I have a weird feeling that Crookshanks or Mrs Norris maybe one of these. I feel it is strange that a cat befriended a large black dog without some sort of reason, and the fact that Crookshanks always seemed to know where scabbers was, for example in POA when Ron says that scabbers is in his pocket and then immediately, Crookshanks pounces. Mrs Norris, is clearly the only 'thing' that can stand to be in Mr Filch's presence so perhaps she is really a witch? His mistress? If anyone has any ideas to back up my beliefs or anyone disagrees then please post a message! ** Rachel ** From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Mon May 5 17:15:55 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:15:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OK... theory I read while I was gone In-Reply-To: References: <000001c31250$8e09dac0$2c100150@chris> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030505120426.00b77a58@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57033 valkyrievixen recently mentioned: >BUT, and this is a big BUTT. LOL. The thing that comes to mind, to >shoo this interesting theory altogether, is; During the Priori spell from >Voldemort's wand, it is the spirit of >Harry's Father, James, that emerges, and not Lupin or Sirius. Perhaps >we are hoping for too much in our desire to see Harry reunited with one of >his parents. There's a couple different things that could be going on... 1) The Priori spell may show the shadow of the physical body it destroyed rather than the spirit of the *person* that was destroyed. If that's the case, then since it was James' body that was destroyed, it would be James' body that would be shown by the shadow from the wand 2) Regarding Lily's comment that Harry's father is coming and wants to talk to him, since the shadow-Lily obviously had some kind of consciousness to her (as demonstrated by her being able to tell Harry's father is coming). She would have had to have known about the switch, but she would also know that if the secret of the switch ever came out, James-in-Lupin/Sirius'-body would have been in grave danger. As such, it's likely she would keep up the pretense that the person killed was James. I have to say, the more I think about the whole switch concept, the less likely I think it is, but I can still see *how* it could be done... Since we've already had Scabbers turn out to be Peter, though, I don't know if JKR would use another "this isn't who it looks like it is" plot twist. I don't know if it would go over as well a 2nd time.... but it is interesting to think about :) Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Mon May 5 18:47:25 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:47:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] No magic outside school Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57034 Diane asked: **Petunia Dursley grew up with Lily, and presumably knew that she wasn't allowed to do magic outside of school. (Although I'm sure Lily was very clever, I doubt she could keep the secret for seven years.)** We actually don't know if the No Magic Outside School rule existed X number of years before, when Lily was at Hogwarts. If it didn't then Petunia wouldn't know that it was forebidden and thus she wouldn't know to mention it to Vernon or Dudley. Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Mon May 5 17:30:34 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:30:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030505122954.00bce928@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57035 Cindy C. recently mentioned: >Hurt-Comfort, huh? Pardon me if this is an inappropriate question, but what does "Hurt-Comfort" mean? Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bruney200 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 15:24:16 2003 From: bruney200 at yahoo.com (tasha) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505152416.32212.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57036 "imamommy at sbcglobal.net" wrote:Wow, >>>there is no way to keep up with the volume of posts these days! Anyway, I was rereading PoA, and had a theory pop up. Why is Snape the thing that scares Neville the most? Is it only due to his treatment of Neville at school? Or is it possible that Snape was the DE who performed Cruciatus on the Longbottoms, and Neville has a supressed memory of this? At any rate, why is Snape so hard on Neville? More questions I know we can't answer concretely (yet!), but I humbly submit them for your opinions.<<< Snape was the spy for Dumbledore and if he did do the Cruatius Curse on the Longbottoms Dumbledore would have never forgave him and never gave him a job at the school because Neville was there. In GOF Dumbledore said that Neville goes and sees his parents at the asylum and knows whats going on. Hes just afraid of Snape because who wouldn't be because hes so mean and dark and yes he use to be a death eather before he turned to good side. Neville is just afraid of everything I wouldnt blame him especially living with a horrible mean grandmother as it is. Tasha From JessaDrow at aol.com Mon May 5 19:02:16 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:02:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The ancient magic of gifts Message-ID: <19c.14296993.2be80f38@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57037 In a message dated 5/5/03 11:28:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ersatzharry at yahoo.com writes: > I've been finding myself wondering if the Dursleys' miserable > Christmas presents to Harry are part of this same ancient magic, that > somehow the giving of a gift, even one so slight as a tissue, confers > some kind of protection on the recipient, at least if given by a > relative. Presumably gift-giving is not something the Dursleys would > have done on their own, no more so than they would have taken care of > Harry in the first place. But I assume Dumbledore's original letter > to them was persuasive. > > And let us not that some other gifts in the story have semi-magical > powers. I'm thinking particularly of the gift of clothing to a > house-elf, though there may be others. > > Faith I had always assumed they sent him gifts because Dumbledore went out of the way every year to send them an owl, asking if they wanted to send a gift to their nephew. So they sent little junk, rather than not send anything and risk Dumbledores wrath. ~Faith~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Victim_of_Atlantis at hotmail.com Mon May 5 18:41:39 2003 From: Victim_of_Atlantis at hotmail.com (Jamie C) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:41:39 -0400 Subject: Head Boy and Head Girl (was Snape & James vs Sirius) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57038 Annechan wrote: >The rank I was talking about isn't a popularity rank. So I assumed that >it was about school's grade and academic values. And I didn't say that >school is the best way to know someone's intelligence (but rather his >attitude to live with the school rules). But a top student, in a >school's POV is almost all the time intelligent. Hermione has top marks >in every class, she is the first student in her year. <> >I know it's a bad deduction, but I always believed that Head Boy was a >distinction that you give to the best student (regardless of their >house). It's not a popularity contest, since Percy is a Head Boy (once >again I may assume wrongly that he is not popular). It's not based on a >quidditch value, since Charlie wasn't a Head Boy, but only a quidditch >captain. I write: Just a few of my own humble thoughts on this. In my highschool, we had an honors society, and then there were the leaders of that honor society. Four to be exact, each representing a different characteristic: character, scholarship, generosity, and service. These four people selected amoung others by teachers and then were elected into their possiton by other members of the honors society. This is sort of how I thought the Head Boy and Head Girl possitions were chosen at Hogwarts. You do want more in a leader than simply good grades. You'd want someone that other students wouldn't be intimidated by (Anyone say Severus? ^_~) and would be capable of being approachable to younger students. You'd want a leader with the four characteristics I mentioned above (Generosity, scholarshio, character and service.) I think Hogwarts chose to pick James and Lily not only on grades, but on their leadership capabilities. Just my humble opinion! ^_^ -Lost Feyth _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From oppen at mycns.net Mon May 5 12:12:48 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 07:12:48 -0500 Subject: Crouch and "Weatherby" Message-ID: <00c301c3133c$47b64940$17500043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 57039 You know, I wonder if Mr. Crouch wasn't beginning to come unglued even before his visit from Lord Voldemort. When he's raving, he is addressing someone called "Weatherby" and talking about how his son (apparently the same one we know) got twelve OWLs. By the time he meets Percy Weasley, his son's long, long past the getting-OWLs stage...he's been his father's prisoner for years and years. So whoever he thinks he's talking to in his flashback, it can't be Percy. But addressing someone by the name of someone else, someone you _used to_ work with, is Not A Good Sign in us Muggles, and I doubt it's a good sign for wizards. I think that the long strain of keeping his son imprisoned told on him in a lot of ways, and he was already a few cards short of a Tarot deck from the stress. Think about it. It would be an incredibly creepy situation, with your son-the-criminal always around, wearing an Invisibility Cloak and under a spell that was _supposed to_ keep him under control...a spell that _you_ knew perfectly well could be resisted. (If Fake-Moody said that Imperius could be resisted in his classes, one can assume that Real-Moody would have as well, and that the knowledge that Imperius _can_ sometimes be resisted is known to at least some wizards) You'd have to watch all the time, wondering all the time if _this_ would be the day when your-son-the-criminal finally managed to figure a way to break free, or if someone would twig to his presence. Every day, you'd know that you had done something that would probably get you tossed so far into Azkaban that even the Dementors couldn't find you. Add in the fact that, other than Winky, he had nobody to turn to...his wife was dead and buried in Azkaban. Frankly, the atmosphere _chez_ Crouch during those years would probably make the Radley house in _To Kill A Mockingbird_ look like Fun Central. And he put up with this for well over a decade. I think that even without his son getting loose and Lord Voldemort returning, Mr. Crouch was well on his way to a padded cell at St. Mungo's. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon May 5 19:35:00 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:35:00 -0000 Subject: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die? Fine, Then! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57040 I was just scrolling through the "Who Is The Death That JKR Says Will Be Horrible To Write?" poll, and I notice a rather disturbing statistics. Forty-eight percent of voters (213 people) predict Hagrid will go to the great beyond in OoP. I'm still thinking the smart money is on Hermione, myself. Be that as it may, I'm willing to get rid of Hagrid if you guys absolutely insist. The problem, though, is the thorny question of the means of Hagrid's demise. So forget *whether* Hagrid will die. Let's jump right to *how* Hagrid will die, shall we? The possibilities: 1. Dementor. Hagrid doesn't have a wand and so can't conjure a patronus, I suppose. But how boring is it for Hagrid to just stand there helpless as a dementor glides slowly over to him? I guess he would *weep,* wouldn't he? That's what we need -- more of Hagrid weeping. Ugh. 2. The Giant Squid. Hey, don't laugh. There are many references to the giant squid, which hasn't figured into the plot yet. Hagrid has been known to go into the lake. You do have to admit that this manner of death would be extremely Bangy. The tentacles around Hagrid's neck. Hagrid digging his fingernails into the mud to slow his slide into the depths of the lake. Hagrid struggling free, only to be grabbed once by each of the squids tentacles, until that Tenth Tentacle proves to be too strong for Hagrid. Oh, I *like* that! 3. AK. Uh, a flash of green light, an especially loud thud, and that's it? Nah. 4. Lethifold. Someone -- anyone -- has to die via lethifold or I will be bitterly disappointed, myself. Wouldn't it be just *awful* if Hagrid finally meets his mother and that very instant meets his maker, too? He might be so happy that he would come back as an oversize ghost. Wouldn't that be jolly? ;-) Cindy -- wondering why her posts are taking so very long to turn up From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 19:37:03 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:37:03 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: <20030505152416.32212.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57041 Tasha wrote: > Snape was the spy for Dumbledore and if he did do the Cruatius Curse on the Longbottoms Dumbledore would have never forgave him and never gave him a job at the school because Neville was there. And besides, the Longbottoms were hit with Cruciatus AFTER the fall of Voldemort. In GoF, Dumbledore tells Harry the injuries to the Longbottoms came when people were starting to feel comfortable again, which is why it shocked them so. So Snape, unless he is working off some form of revenge that only he grasps - - and he has hidden from Dumbledore -- probably didn't do it, since he was already working for D-Dore at the time. Now... Lucius Malfoy... THAT I could see. >In GOF Dumbledore said that Neville goes and sees his parents at the asylum and knows whats going on. Hes just afraid of Snape because who wouldn't be because hes so mean and dark and yes he use to be a death eather before he turned to good side. Neville is just afraid of everything I wouldnt blame him especially living with a horrible mean grandmother as it is. > Snape also takes pains to really go after Neville, not only in Potions class, but -- completely unprofessionally in my mind -- in other classes. He insults Neville in front of Lupin and just before the duelling club meeting. Since Snape so obviously WANTS Neville to fear him, Neville is just obliging. Now, there has been a theory that Snape has, either on D-Dore's orders or on his own, been pounding away at Neville in an effort to get the boy to break through his memory charms and stop being so afraid. I don't know if I buy it, but put the theory out for fairness sake. But one part does make sense. The Longbottoms were feared and respected Aurors. One would think their son would have more potential than Neville has shown. Perhaps it is buried underneath memory charms. Darrin -- believes Neville will play a major role in the climax of the series From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Mon May 5 19:39:07 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:39:07 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Longbottoms/Snape and Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20030505152416.32212.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tasha wrote: > Snape was the spy for Dumbledore and if he did do the Cruatius Curse on the Longbottoms Dumbledore would have never forgave him and never gave him a job at the school because Neville was there. In GOF Dumbledore said that Neville goes and sees his parents at the asylum and knows whats going on. Hes just afraid of Snape because who wouldn't be because hes so mean and dark and yes he use to be a death eather before he turned to good side. Neville is just afraid of everything I wouldnt blame him especially living with a horrible mean grandmother as it is. Thanks everyone for the input! I had forgotten about the LB's being cursed after LV was brought down. To reply to the above, this is exactly my point: Why would a boy who has *everything* to fear, and seems to fear everything, be especially frightened of Snape? Neville doesn't necessarily know that Snape used to be a DE (conciously, anyhow). And another thought I had: What does Snape know about in his house? How does he counsel his students? He didn't seem to know any more than the other teachers about the Heir of Slytherin, for example. I wonder if he tried to find out who was behind it. imamommy From petalla at express56.com Mon May 5 19:39:56 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:39:56 -0000 Subject: I Hate Snape... In-Reply-To: <122.21f71719.2be72d91@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57043 Although Snape has some disagreeable personality traits, he is definitely a teacher that deserves recognition. Do you know of a teacher that is not a bit...um...eccentric? He reminds me of a particular Romantic Poetry teacher that I once had the displeasure of taking a class with. He was incredibly well learned, and a mind that could not be beat (before the beginnings of a brain tumor (which he later died of)-but we won't go there). However, Snape has quite a number of qualities that really cannot be ignored. 1) He does have the student's well being in mind. 2) He is loyal to Hogwarts, and Dumbledore. 3) We have been almost fooled into believing he was the "bad guy" in book one. This still stays with us throughout the other three books. It has not been proven that he is one who could not be trusted. 4) Yes there are a lot of rumors about this character (in love with Lily, a vampire, is again a spy for Dumbledore...) but this is one of the reasons why he is so important to this series. He is part of what keeps us reading! Always, Petalla Always, Petalla From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon May 5 19:44:05 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:44:05 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030505122954.00bce928@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57044 Kriselda asked: > Pardon me if this is an inappropriate question, but what does > "Hurt-Comfort" mean? Nah, it's not inappropriate *at all.* In a thread long, long ago, Elkins posited "Hurt-Comfort" as a reason female readers crush on certain HP fellas. Derannimer, bless her, did the research to find the old thread and wrote: >The Brilliant Elkins, in Message Number 39083, wrote rather a nice >description of the Hurt-Comfort dynamic. (The message is primarily >about Draco Malfoy, but you'll get the idea.) So, Kriselda . . . Care to join us? ;-) Meanwhile, Eileen goes weak in the knees over her love interest, Crouch Sr. . . . >How can one not be touched? How? Because Crouch *doesn't really mean it,* that's why! He's just out to save his own miserable hide in that scene. He just wants to cut a deal there. He won't reveal the critical information he knows to Harry. Noooo! He has to wait for Albus Dumbledore, doesn't he? Doesn't the redemption have to be, er, consumated for it to count? Crouch Sr. failed, and now Voldemort is back. Eileen continued: >But you've excluded Avery from the list Cindy, why? >He's tortured on screen. And he's an emotional wreck. >And he's suitably docile to respond to the directions >of the hurt-comfort fixated. Why, you know, you're right! I did somehow overlook Avery. I think that's part of Avery's problem. He's practically invisible as a character, isn't he? Oh, sure. This list has breathed life into his wretched soul. But in canon, there's just nothing there. But I must admit . . . I like the way Avery *begs.* ;-) Cindy -- wondering if guys crush on the HP female characters, and if not, why not From susannahlm at yahoo.com Mon May 5 18:43:57 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 18:43:57 -0000 Subject: Hurt/Comfort Rankings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57045 Cindy, who ranked *Peter Pettigrew* ahead of Snape, which I guess says something pretty disturbing about *her* tastes, wrote, for her Hurt/Comfort Meter: > 8. Snape. I must take issue with the idea that Snape's allure is > based on Hurt-Comfort. We hardly ever see Snape get physically > injured -- just the thing with Fluffy, IIRC. Snape suffers lots of > indignities -- people don't listen to him, for instance. But that's > hardly Hurt-Comfort. Well, but as I understand it, Hurt/Comfort doesn't have to be based on physical pain. (I actually prefer it to be based on emotional or psychological or spiritual pain.) I mean, you yourself gave "guilt" as a Hurt/Comfort thing that Sirius has got going for him. But we know for a fact that Sirius only stayed alive in Azkaban by focusing on his fundamental *innocence;* the only thing he's really got to feel guilty about is poor judgement, and in these books who *hasn't* got poor judgement? Snape, on the other hand now, has got some *serious* guilt issues going. If Sirius can be guilty I don't see why Snape can't. > I think women lust after Snape for another reason entirely -- he's > a challenge, a conquest-in-waiting! Oh, if you can get Snape to > love you, then you are without question supremely loveable. Sorry, > Derannimer, I'm not giving you Hurt-Comfort!Snape. Not yet, anyway. > I wish I could, as I suspect you dearly want him, but I just > can't. ;-) Elkins! Where's Elkins? Here we are having a Hurt/Comfort discussion and Captain Cindy's making very rude Personal Remarks about me and the blasted Hurt/Comfort *expert* is nowhere in sight! What's with that! But seriously, Cindy, *Elkins* said that Snape has Hurt/Comfort. I mean, *Elkins* said it! ". . . it's all that angst that does it, right?" And it's true. Apart from everything else, *Elkins* said it! Derannimer, who has to say that she can't see any reason to put Pettigrew on the list *at all,* even if Elkins once also said that people are very diverse that way From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Mon May 5 19:17:20 2003 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:17:20 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "indyattic" wrote: > An earlier post suggested that Hermione was perhaps better suited to > Ravenclaw. This post led me 'round to thinking that perhaps that the > McGonagall relationship is the very reason the Sorting Hat placed her > in McGonagall's house, instead of the seemingly logical Ravenclaw. imamommy: I'm really curious to learn more about McGonagall. She is a bit older than Voldemort, correct? I hope that her history will be discussed more in-depth in future installments. I think she makes an excellent role model for Hermione. As to Hermione fitting in better in Ravenclaw, cleverness does not always translate into being studious and well-read. Hermione proves herself very brave indeed by always volunteering the answers, even daring to speak boldly to Snape and slap Malfoy across the face. If it were not for her cleverness *blended* with her intrepid sense of adventure, Harry and Ron would find themselves in even more trouble. Seems like she is often the one who actually figures things out for them, and acts as a voice of reason. Has she ever shied away from doing something dangerous? Not that I can recall. She always tells Harry to be careful, and is herself prudent, but she's still always in the thick of things, and I think she's really brave, indeed. imamommy From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon May 5 18:53:40 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:53:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort....muggle...hmmm Message-ID: <12218702.1052160820306.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57047 "James" wrote: > Okay... Voldie has a muggle father- tom riddle, and a witch mother... doesnt that make him somewhat of a mudblood because he is half and half? So that would mean he isnt pure-blood...shouldn't he be killing himself then>?
Yes, just as Hitler didn't represent what he stood for. And JKR confirmed that in an interview (I think it was the Canadian one, I have it at home). That Voldemort was a sort of wizard Hitler. He kills innocent people, advocates a certain type of person, yet promotes something that he does not represent. I think JKR has set up a lot of her wizard world to correspond to things in the Muggle world. Like the chamber being opened by Riddle in 1941/42. Pearl Harbor was in 1941. Fear in the muggle world/fear in the wizard world. Grindewald (whoever he was) was defeated in 1945, coincides with the end of WW2 and so on. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon May 5 20:08:33 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:08:33 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Snape & James vs Sirius In-Reply-To: <2327EFCF-7EE4-11D7-A8AF-000393447E36@cnous.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Annechan wrote: I know it's a bad deduction, but I always believed that Head Boy was a distinction that you give to the best student (regardless of their house). It's not a popularity contest, since Percy is a Head Boy (once again I may assume wrongly that he is not popular). It's not based on a quidditch value, since Charlie wasn't a Head Boy, but only a quidditch captain. Mel: Actually it is rather like a popularity contest. Certainly there are qualifications and a complete dunderhead would never be head boy or girl, but it's more than just the "top marks" in grades. I can't speak for Hogwarts but in most cases candidates are "nominated" by teachers/staff and evaluated on several points. It is entirely possible that Severus outscored James but was passed over for Head Boy (would he WANT to be head boy?) because of his reputation for hexes. Same with Sirius...HE could have outscored Potter as well, but his hot-headedness and unthinking attitude would have cost him points. As you pointed out, it's said they were "bright" and even "Exceptionally bright" but I don't think it ever said, "James Potter and Sirius Black were the smartest kids in school". That HAS been said, or something very like it, however about Tom Riddle. Mel From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon May 5 20:09:09 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:09:09 -0000 Subject: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die? Fine, Then! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57049 Cindy: > Wouldn't it be just *awful* if Hagrid finally meets his mother and > that very instant meets his maker, too? He might be so happy that > he would come back as an oversize ghost. Wouldn't that be jolly? > ;-) No, no, no. His mother is going to reject him. Totally. In a wonderful parallel to Tom Riddle's father Tom Riddle rejecting *him*. This caused Tom, Jr. to reject and hate all muggle-kind. Hagrid, of course, will be Not Like That. He will be forgiving of Giant kind. He will however, be so miserable about Mummy's rejecting him that he returns as a ghost. After he's been torn into a thousand tiny pieces by Mummikins in a rage. [You think Petunia is bad? You ain't seen nuthin' yet.] This explains everything. The rapidly-becoming-notorious JKR quote that Troels uses to argue that Hagrid *will* be around runs: ******************************************************************** Pete: is he going to be in the rest of the books? JKR: Yes - JKR: Erm - I'd - he is - he is going to be around, you're going to keep seeing him. ********************************************************************* Yes, we are going to keep seeing him. In bits, as Harry has 'flashbacks' of the dreadful events of Hagrid's death. And possibly in slightly transparent form, when he re-appears as a ghost. The Headless Hunt will be deeply jealous of Hagrid, of course, as he will be able to detach *all* his ghostly limbs, not just his head. But JKR's flat answer of 'yes' to 'is Hagrid going to be in the rest of the books' does NOT mean 'Hagrid is going to be *alive* in the rest of the books. After all, James and Lily Potter have been 'in' all four books to date. Gone, but not forgotten, you might say ;-) Pip!Squeak From sl010c0016 at blueyonder.co.uk Mon May 5 19:56:51 2003 From: sl010c0016 at blueyonder.co.uk (stephen) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:56:51 -0000 Subject: Wizard names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57050 Probably an old one this but I noticed that the great wizards fore and surnames began with the same letters. Salazar Slytherin, Godric Gryffindor etc. Is there a meaning to this? Snape and McGonagall also have same. Probably nothing but does anyone have any ideas about this? Stevie From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon May 5 19:18:51 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:18:51 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030505122954.00bce928@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57051 Kriselda asked: > Pardon me if this is an inappropriate question, but what does > "Hurt-Comfort" mean? Nah, it's not inappropriate *at all.* In a thread long, long ago, Elkins posited "Hurt-Comfort" as a reason female readers crush on certain HP fellas. Derannimer, bless her, did the research to find the old thread and wrote: >The Brilliant Elkins, in Message Number 39083, wrote rather a nice >description of the Hurt-Comfort dynamic. (The message is primarily >about Draco Malfoy, but you'll get the idea.) So, Kriselda . . . Care to join us? ;-) Meanwhile, Eileen goes weak in the knees over her love interest, Crouch Sr. . . . >How can one not be touched? How? Because Crouch *doesn't really mean it,* that's why! He's just out to save his own miserable hide in that scene. He just wants to cut a deal there. He won't reveal the critical information he knows to Harry. Noooo! He has to wait for Albus Dumbledore, doesn't he? Doesn't the redemption have to be, er, consumated for it to count? Crouch Sr. failed, and now Voldemort is back. Eileen continued: >But you've excluded Avery from the list Cindy, why? >He's tortured on screen. And he's an emotional wreck. >And he's suitably docile to respond to the directions >of the hurt-comfort fixated. Why, you know, you're right! I did somehow overlook Avery. I think that's part of Avery's problem. He's practically invisible as a character, isn't he? Oh, sure. This list has breathed life into his wretched soul. But in canon, there's just nothing there. But I must admit . . . I like the way Avery *begs.* ;-) Cindy -- wondering if guys crush on the HP female characters, and if not, why not From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon May 5 20:43:23 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:43:23 -0000 Subject: Hurt/Comfort Rankings (Contains The Odd TBAY Reference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57053 Derannimer challenged: > Well, but as I understand it, Hurt/Comfort doesn't have to be >based on physical pain. (I actually prefer it to be based on >emotional or psychological or spiritual pain.) Oh, *ugh!* Now Hurt/Comfort is the same thing as a bad hair day? The cure is a ride on the psychiatrist's couch? "Just lean back and tell us all about your *feelings,* Severus." Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but that is so *Not Bangy!* Look, Harry had lots of emotional pain before the graveyard scene. But as The Elkins herself once said, it was the graveyard scene where Harry has all of that physical pain when the female readers rushed to his side. To tell you truth, when Harry and Ron were having their spat in GoF, I didn't care much about Harry's precious feelings. But when Harry threw that badge and nailed Ron in the forehead? I *felt* that! I say Hurt/Comfort has to have a major element of physical pain for it to count. Guilt is nice, but only layered on top of the physical pain. And yes, lying on the Azkaban cold stone floor with other prisoners making so much darn noise that you can't sleep at night counts as physical pain in my book. Derannimer continued: > head> Hey, we may have to take Prince of Lies for another spin, now that you mention it. ;-) Derannimer cried: > Elkins! Where's Elkins? Here we are having a Hurt/Comfort >discussion and Captain Cindy's making very rude Personal Remarks >about me and the blasted Hurt/Comfort *expert* is nowhere in sight! Bwahahahah! Elkins is not here to save you this time, My Pretty! You will have to make the case for Hurt!Snape all on your own. And just to make this difficult, I submit that Snape *enjoyed* all those cruel DE adventures before he spied for Dumbledore. He wasn't hurt, and he has no guilt. So there's nothing worth comforting down in Snape's cold, damp dungeon. Cindy -- looking for a way to get Fudge on the list, but coming up empty From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 20:34:44 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:34:44 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57054 > Cindy -- wondering if guys crush on the HP female characters, and if > not, why not Well.... now that you asked... For purposes of this list, I will place myself in Darrin from Kadena Junior High School again, otherwise, this will just really gross and illegal in most civilized countries. So, no reporting me to the proper authorities! The problem is, guys are much more concerned about physical appearance than women are, a character flaw I freely admit applies to me as well. So, here is my list. First, the adult women - defined as those who have graduated Hogwarts or their own school - seen from Darrin the alleged adult. * Madame Rosmerta. Curvy bartender! I am SO there. If she could cook homemade pizza, then I think I'd propose. * Narcissa Malfoy. Ice queen! Oh yeah. I'll give you an example. People who have seen the latest James Bond movie will know what I mean. The OTHER woman in Die Another Day, the blonde fencer bad girl was way hotter than Halle Berry. * Fleur. The obvious choice. I rank her third, but as soon as she started doing the Veela thing, i'm sure I'd cave. * Hooch. Fast brooms and fast women! * Madame Maxime. Once you've had giant, you're never again self-reliant. * Molly Weasley. They say you marry your mother... * McGonagall, Trelawney, Rita Skeeter - Nope. Never. Not anyway or how. Now, from junior high Darrin, heh-heh-heh... shut up, Butthead! * Hermione - Smart is waayyyyyy sexy. (Movie poisioning here, but Emma Watson will be a serious babe in 10 years.) * Cho Chang - total sporty spice * Angelina, Katie, and that other Gryff girl on the Quidditch team. See sporty definition. * Lavender - total hottie, a bit cliquie, but oh well. * Moaning Myrtle - Guy rule. Go after the girl feeling lonely at the party. * The Patil girls. Much too materialistic to suit me, but they are babes. * Ginny. Yeah, far down on the list, really, but too much of the "little sister" vibe. * Pansy Parkinson - never. But I'd like to set her up with evil friends of mine so she can get her little black heart broken in about a million pieces. * Millicent - Gahhh! Never date a girl who can beat you up. Darrin -- ready for the slings and arrows for this post From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Mon May 5 20:58:41 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:58:41 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57055 indyattic wrote: > > An earlier post suggested that Hermione was perhaps better suited > to > > Ravenclaw. This post led me 'round to thinking that perhaps that > the > > McGonagall relationship is the very reason the Sorting Hat placed > her > > in McGonagall's house, instead of the seemingly logical Ravenclaw. imamommy replied: > As to Hermione fitting in better > in Ravenclaw, cleverness does not always translate into being > studious and well-read. I (Linda) say: I think Hermione proved why she is in Gryffindor in SS; > "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And Cleverness! There are more important things-friendship and bravery and-oh Harry- be careful!"< The books and cleverness that are so symbolic to Ravenclaw are not the most important thing to Hermione and the sorting hat was able to discern that. -Linda From waters_law at yahoo.com Mon May 5 19:22:58 2003 From: waters_law at yahoo.com (waters_law) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:22:58 -0000 Subject: LV's mudblood ancestry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57056 > Okay... Voldie has a muggle father- tom riddle, and a witch > mother... doesnt that make him somewhat of a mudblood because he is > half and half? So that would mean he isnt pure-blood...shouldn't he > be killing himself then>? > > JOe said: > But yes, You are correct that he's not a pureblood. So it is >funny that he hates those like him and those of muggle blood. Actually, I find LV's mudblood "taint" to be one of the things that make him a more realistic character. Historically, evildoers are often motivated by the percieved need to obliterate a portion of themselves. For example, Hitler is believed to have been motivated by his fear that he was in fact of Jewish descent. I also just read a book about Manson which stated that there was some indication that he had an African American ancestor, making his desire to start a race war rather ironic. "Waters Law" From meboriqua at aol.com Mon May 5 21:04:48 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:04:48 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > 3. Harry. Sorry. No crushing on underage boys allowed.> Hey! Why not? It's not like I'd want to jump Harry's bones if he was a real kid in my class. The fourteen year old girl in me, though, has a wild crush on him. If I was a young witch at Hogwarts, I'd gaze longingly at Harry as he struggled through his Potions Class, gracefully caught the Snitch during Quidditch games, and laughed with Ron at meals. His dark hair, bright green eyes, glasses... forget it! He is exactly the type of boy I fell for when I was that age (and I remember all of my crushes - unrequited, of course). The fact that he has no parents and could use some good lovin' from a nice girl would make my fourteen year old heart yearn to have him all for myself. --jenny from ravenclaw, who knows I'm not the only one who thinks this, but what the hell; I'll be the one to admit it ************************************************************* From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 21:07:38 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die? Fine, Then! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505210738.59818.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57058 Cindy: > Wouldn't it be just *awful* if Hagrid finally meets his mother and > that very instant meets his maker, too? He might be so happy that > he would come back as an oversize ghost. Wouldn't that be jolly? > ;-) No, no, no. His mother is going to reject him. Totally. In a wonderful parallel to Tom Riddle's father Tom Riddle rejecting *him*. This caused Tom, Jr. to reject and hate all muggle-kind. Hagrid, of course, will be Not Like That. He will be forgiving of Giant kind. He will however, be so miserable about Mummy's rejecting him that he returns as a ghost. After he's been torn into a thousand tiny pieces by Mummikins in a rage. Me: I can't imagine Hagrid coming back as a ghost. I think he's too at peace with himself to come back as a ghost. Nor could I imagine "mummikins" ripping him into pieces. That would certainly be a good piece of evidence that the wizarding communities' prejudice against giants was justified. I also think this series will have enough sad points in it without Ms. Rowling's loyal readers turning it into a soap opera! Or a Greek tragedy! (as much as some of you obviously LOVE Greek tragedies!) No. It will of course be Voldemort doing the killing probably directly but possibly by proxie. How and why I won't venture to guess. Hopefully Hagrid will accomplish something very positive in the "war" in his death. Even so he's never really had to show any, I bet if forced into a corner, his courage is as big as his girth. He'll die courageously I am certain. Huggs Becky PS Just for the record I would be delighted if it turns out the author has changed her mind and decided to let the poor guy live! Surprised, but delighted! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon May 5 21:06:46 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:06:46 -0000 Subject: Crouch and "Weatherby" In-Reply-To: <00c301c3133c$47b64940$17500043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > You know, I wonder if Mr. Crouch wasn't beginning to come unglued even > before his visit from Lord Voldemort. When he's raving, he is addressing > someone called "Weatherby" and talking about how his son (apparently the > same one we know) got twelve OWLs. > > By the time he meets Percy Weasley, his son's long, long past the > getting-OWLs stage...he's been his father's prisoner for years and years. > So whoever he thinks he's talking to in his flashback, it can't be Percy. > > But addressing someone by the name of someone else, someone you _used to_ > work with, is Not A Good Sign in us Muggles, and I doubt it's a good sign > for wizards. Annemehr: Hmmm... Maybe you're right. I always assumed Crouch thought he was talking to Percy and that it was part of his madness that he'd got the people mixed together from separate years, but... you're making me think... Eric Oppen again: I think that the long strain of keeping his son imprisoned > told on him in a lot of ways, and he was already a few cards short of a > Tarot deck from the stress. Annemehr: You know, this could answer a question that's always bothered me. How could Crouch Sr. *not know* that Percy was Arthur Weasley's son? He'd known Arthur for how many years? At the QWC, he certainly spoke with him as an old and respected colleague. Even if he never spared much thought at all for Percy, I still can't see why he would think his name was "Weatherby." When Percy was first introduced to him, his brain should have filed him away as "Arthur Weasley' son." Unless your theory is true! Annemehr jumping on board with both feet From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon May 5 20:21:03 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:21:03 -0000 Subject: Crushes on Female Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > > Cindy -- wondering if guys crush on the HP female characters, and if > not, why not Yes, um, well, er... not really. Perhaps it has something to do with age. Speaking as a guy who, say, remembers Richard Nixon quite well, there really aren't many female characters of the right age for me to have a crush on. (I assume for the moment, by the way, that we are restricting ourselves to male crushes on females, but of course there are other possibilities, and perhaps some of the males in this group are also fond of, say, Severus or Remus or even that teddy bear Rubeus.) Let's start with the staffers, shall we? Minerva? That would be like having a crush on your own grandmother. Pass. Poppy? Well, she's got potential, I suppose, if you're into whatever sort of uniform wizard doctors/nurses wear. (She seems more like a stereotypical school nurse in some ways, but she clearly has great medical talent.) Sybill? Thank you, but no. Madam Hooch (first name?) has got some possibilities, but she's not really a well-developed character. I think that's it for the most significant female staffers, though I may have missed someone. Of course, there are other female characters aplenty. While I have to say that Lily Potter was portrayed as quite attractive in the movie (sorry for the contamination), she has not yet been developed enough as a character in the books. Besides, she's, um, dead. But a crush on someone *like* Lily Potter is possible. How about Petunia? Thanks, but I think I'd prefer Minerva, which is saying something. Aunt Marge? Um... no. How about Olympe, that vamp? A bit too dangerous for my tastes, not to mention tall. Still, maybe she holds some appeal for some of the male participants in this group. So might Narcisa, if her character is ever fleshed out beyond being a woman who looks like she smells a rotting fish all the time. How about Molly? Probably a bit too maternal to file under the "crush" category. That brings us to the students. Lest you think I am a sick man, let me answer a slightly different question: "Are there female characters you might have had a crush on when you were the right age?" To this question, the answer is definitely yes. But who, you ask? At our most testosterone-laden points, many guys might have had a crush on that part-veela creature Fleur. Roger Davies certainly seemed a bit ga-ga over her, as did Ron, of course, and even Harry for a few moments. No staying power, though; she's not very nice (so far) and any crush would just be the hormones talking (or maybe screaming). Of course, sometimes that's all that matters. Cho is probably closer to realistic. Not only is she attractive (a typical requirement for a crush), but she is out-and-out nice, and wizard-athletic to boot. But I have to confess that, when I started reading the books, one other female character *distinctly* reminded me of someone I *did* have a crush on at that age, and that character is, of course, Hermione, despite (or perhaps because of) her being an insufferable know-it-all. I expect she will grow more appealing as the books progress. I think I can cross off Pansy Parkinson and Moaning Myrtle from my list, but maybe I'm just being a bit provincial. Any other males (or females) care to chime in on this one? Ersatz Harry From amani at charter.net Mon May 5 21:14:10 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:14:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Animagi's References: Message-ID: <001c01c3134b$457e83e0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57061 Rachel: If I am correct, in G.O.F Hermione tells Ron and Harry that there are only a few registered Animagi. The only registered Animagi that I can think of is McGonagoll. J.Potter, Black, Pettigrew and Skeeter are illegal ones. So the other day I asked myself...who are the other registered animagi? Surely these will be discussed in the next books. I have a weird feeling that Crookshanks or Mrs Norris maybe one of these. I feel it is strange that a cat befriended a large black dog without some sort of reason, and the fact that Crookshanks always seemed to know where scabbers was, for example in POA when Ron says that scabbers is in his pocket and then immediately, Crookshanks pounces. Mrs Norris, is clearly the only 'thing' that can stand to be in Mr Filch's presence so perhaps she is really a witch? His mistress? Me: I firmly believe that there's something about Mrs. Norris that we don't know about, perhaps a transfiguration unable to be reversed or something of the sort. Crookshanks, however, has been totally scratched off the animagi possibility list for me. Mainly because JKR has said that he is, in fact, part Kneazle, which is the explanation for his intelligence. Lizo: ...I was particularly interested in the bit about the Kneazle, is Crookshanks possibly... uh, have any Kneazle...? JKR: Yes, part-Kneazle yes, he is, yes, well-spotted. >From the April 27, 2001 Newsground BBC interview that's in the Yahoo group files. (Took me a while to find, the original BBC page has since been deleted.) --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Mon May 5 21:20:03 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:20:03 EDT Subject: Regarding Trelawney Message-ID: <6a.30a454ac.2be82f83@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57062 The badness of Trelawny's teaching style has been much discussed lately. But this isn't about that. So far as teaching is concerned, she's probably about the best that they could get. A True Seer would probably have better things to do. She is conversant with a wide ranger of Divination methods and can teach the mechanics of all of them. She also has at least a weak gift (hence the ridiculaous lengths to which she goes in order to try to maximise it) and may be able to recognize which of the students in her classes may also have the real gift of sight and bew able to at least get them started. She probably has a very dull life and her thirst for excitement misleads her into predicting grand sweeping events which never actually happen. She is perfectly capable of foreseeing little nothing events like Neville breaking his teacup or Lavander getting bad news from home on a specific day. But her interpretations blow them so far out of porportion to the point that level heads like Hermione's discount the whole of them because the prediction as stated does not match the event as seen. If Trelawny had any sort of sense of porportion she would have said that Lavendar would get bad news on such-and-such a date (which she did) instead of dressing it up about "the thing you most fear" which confuses the fact of recieving bad news with the event that the news reported -- which took place on some other date altogether. True she is going way overboard in encouraging the students to predict tragedies, and she is a poor interpreter of the influences at work in her craft. But she is not a *complete* waste of space. I also think that she has been at Hogwarts for a long time. A very long time. Like, 50-60 years at least. In fact, I think that that "first" prediction of hers took place in a very similar circumstance as her second. She poped out with it in front of students (Tom Riddle among them) and had no awareness of what she had said afterwards. Since I doubt that Riddle would have said anything that concerned himself to anyone in charge, I suspect that there was at least one other witness who told someone on staff, probably Dumbledore, possibly Dippet. We can only hope that Dumbledore will come clean with it before hemakes his exit (temporary or otherwise). -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 5 21:00:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:00:51 -0000 Subject: Hagrid Death Question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505093935.00f8fa60@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 03:20 05-05-03 -0400, you wrote: > >Other than that quote and the fact that he is presumably headed off to > >speak with some rather nasty giant types, is there other evidence of > >Hagrid's impending demise? > > As I understand it much weight is put on the fact that Mr Coltrane > apparently only has a contract covering the first five movies. > > ...edited... > > Troels bboy_mn: Question: Is Coltrane signed up for a 5 YEAR contact or a five MOVIE contract. Does anyone know for sure? Sorry for the short post, but I've seen is listed both ways in just the last few days. bboy_mn From petalla at express56.com Mon May 5 21:19:57 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:19:57 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57064 > > Now... Lucius Malfoy... THAT I could see. Me as well!!!!!!!!! > > Snape also takes pains to really go after Neville, not only in Potions class, but > -- completely unprofessionally in my mind -- in other classes. He insults > Neville in front of Lupin and just before the duelling club meeting. > > Since Snape so obviously WANTS Neville to fear him, Neville is just obliging. If you notice, Snape is particularly mean to those students who very well maybe major players in the series. Maybe the character shows this side to these students because they NEED to see it. They need a "thicker" skin. They are the ones who are in danger at the school. This would make perfect sence in Neville's case. He (I hope)is a late bloomer. > Now, there has been a theory that Snape has, either on D-Dore's orders or on > his own, been pounding away at Neville in an effort to get the boy to break > through his memory charms and stop being so afraid. I don't know if I buy it, > but put the theory out for fairness sake. > > But one part does make sense. The Longbottoms were feared and respected > Aurors. One would think their son would have more potential than Neville has > shown. Perhaps it is buried underneath memory charms. This may be true, there is some evidence that Neville has had memory charms put on him (the rememberall...). It sometimes seems that he was placed at Hogwarts for nothing more than comic relief (he and Dudley)...but that does not really go with the flow of the series. There must be something more to it. > > Darrin > -- believes Neville will play a major role in the climax of the series So do I Darrin...so do I. "peggybaratto" From c4bchief at yahoo.com Mon May 5 21:40:26 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:40:26 -0000 Subject: Crushes on Female Characters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57065 > Any other males (or females) care to chime in on this one? > > Ersatz Harry Forgive me for not being able to quote description via my book has been borrowed. But I got the distinct interpretation that Madam Rosmerta was considered cute in the WW. >From what I recall, she was just a tad older the Sirius/Lily/James. Besides, she's a waitress. *wink wink* Joe From t.forch at mail.dk Mon May 5 21:46:50 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:46:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid Death Question In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505093935.00f8fa60@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505234511.02d80440@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57066 At 21:00 05-05-03 +0000, Steve wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > wrote: > > As I understand it much weight is put on the fact that Mr Coltrane > > apparently only has a contract covering the first five movies. >bboy_mn: > >Question: Is Coltrane signed up for a 5 YEAR contact or a five MOVIE >contract. Does anyone know for sure? Good question. I don't know (my use of 'fact' above is obviously at least premature and possibly erroneous - I apologise in both cases). Troels From tammy at mauswerks.net Mon May 5 21:25:38 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:25:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EB69E92.25757.88E4C52@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 57067 On 5 May 2003 at 21:04, jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." > wrote: > > > 3. Harry. Sorry. No crushing on underage boys allowed.> > > Hey! Why not? It's not like I'd want to jump Harry's bones if he was > a real kid in my class. The fourteen year old girl in me, though, has > a wild crush on him. If I was a young witch at Hogwarts, I'd gaze > longingly at Harry as he struggled through his Potions Class, > gracefully caught the Snitch during Quidditch games, and laughed with > Ron at meals. His dark hair, bright green eyes, glasses... forget it! > He is exactly the type of boy I fell for when I was that age (and I > remember all of my crushes - unrequited, of course). The fact that he > has no parents and could use some good lovin' from a nice girl would > make my fourteen year old heart yearn to have him all for myself. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who knows I'm not the only one who thinks > this, but what the hell; I'll be the one to admit it > ************************************************************* Jenny, you are not alone! My fourteen-year-old self is right there with yours, I can guarantee you that, ogling poor Harry and wishing she could make all his hurts go away. :-) Then again, there's always the Age Potion angle . . . . *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From hp at plum.cream.org Mon May 5 21:43:35 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 22:43:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid Death Question In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505093935.00f8fa60@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030505224037.009a9a70@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57068 At 22:00 05/05/03 , Steve wrote: >Question: Is Coltrane signed up for a 5 YEAR contact or a five MOVIE >contract. Does anyone know for sure? > >Sorry for the short post, but I've seen is listed both ways in just >the last few days. Not only short, but off-topic. :-) The equally short and equally off-topic answer is "five movies". For a slightly longer answer, firstly, "five years" doesn't make sense for a movie franchise. Secondly, he confirmed it on Parkinson (BBC chat show) when PS/SS came out. :-) I think I have an MP3 of the interview somewhere. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, surfacing for air for a moment and returning to lurkdom (and other activities) From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon May 5 21:29:09 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:29:09 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > * Madame Rosmerta. Curvy bartender! I am SO there. If she could > cook homemade pizza, then I think I'd propose. Ooh, I forgot about her. Shall we have a duel for her hand, then? I had also forgotten about Rita Skeeter -- probably I have her filed mentally under "insect" rather than "female" -- but, frankly, I think I'd rather be AKd. As far as the other PYTs (pretty young things) go -- Angelina, Katie, Lavender, Parvati, Ginny -- well, their characters are still a little too undeveloped, except perhaps for Ginny, and even she is still somewhat one-dimensional so far. Ersatz Harry From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 5 22:39:17 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 22:39:17 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57070 Ersatz wrote: > > * Madame Rosmerta. Curvy bartender! I am SO there. If she could > > cook homemade pizza, then I think I'd propose. > > Ooh, I forgot about her. Shall we have a duel for her hand, then? > What's in your wand? I don't need certain spells coming to life in reverse order, especially not that one Alberforth Dumbledore taught me... :) > I had also forgotten about Rita Skeeter -- probably I have her filed > mentally under "insect" rather than "female" -- but, frankly, I think > I'd rather be AKd. I'd DEFINITELY rather be AK'd. Give me the Cruciatus before Rita! > As far as the other PYTs (pretty young things) go -- Angelina, Katie, Lavender, Parvati, Ginny -- well, their characters are still a little too undeveloped, except perhaps for Ginny, and even she is still somewhat one-dimensional so far. > Angelina is athletic and a good dancer, and I just love the way she takes it in stride when Fred says, "Oy, Angelina! Want to go to the ball" and she says, "Well, all right then." Now THAT sounds like a girl I could be on beer and pizza terms with. Some girls like to think they could do the beer and pizza, but not all of you can, ladies. Lavender and the Patil twins are pretty underdeveloped, character- wise (no idea about any other wise) but we know they are hotties. Ginny is just too much of a kid sister. Damn it. I usually get it so bad for redheads, too. Anyway, she's Neville's for now. Darrin -- This isn't sick. Really, it isn't. Honest. (help) From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 5 22:08:44 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:08:44 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random Thoughts References: Message-ID: <003f01c31352$e630cdf0$6595253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57071 Lynn wrote: > While lying down trying to get rid of a pounding > headache, the following questions came to mind > and just made me say Hmmmmm. > 4. Why didn't Bill, Charlie or Mr. Weasley lend > Ron their dress robes for the Yule Ball? Even a > bit big, it would have been better than what Ron > had to wear. I'm assuming Fred and George were > wearing Bill and Charlie's old ones. Me (Izaskun): I know the answer for this one. Bill, and Charlie probably don't have dress robes. They are not required in Hogwarts, it's only because of the Yule Ball that they need them, and as we know, Bill and CHarlie never had the opportunity to attend such event. So they never needed dress robes, so they never bought them. I assume the same applies for Mr. Weasley. >> > 15. Didn't it strike the MoM strange that > Pettigrew's robes were intact but the spell was > powerful enough to disintegrate everything but a > finger? And why didn't the finger disintegrate > as well? > Me (Izaskun): Pettigrew's robes were intact?? From what we know animagi transform and their robes transform with them, we see McGonagall transforming and keeping her robes, we see Sirius transform with his Azkaban robes as well. So when Pettigrew transformed himself, there were not robes left behind, the only thing the MoM found was his finger and they assumed he had been blown up, not disintegrated, the finger being the biggest part left. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ygranependragon at aol.com Mon May 5 22:15:06 2003 From: Ygranependragon at aol.com (galaxianomiko) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 22:15:06 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > And I never said that the Slyths thought as one unit. Draco and MANY > others sat down when Dumbledore was praising Harry's courage -- a > courageous act that included bringing back Cedric's body, who the > Slyths allegedly were SO mournful for, expressed by standing up when > everyone else did. > How do you know that they weren't sincere about standing up for Cedric? I'm not saying that it's certain that they WERE sincere, but nowhere in the tone of that scene does JKR hint that they rose for any other reason. At least from what I can tell. > Who is to say the other Slyths just didn't think of it and privately > said, "oh, yeah, good one, Draco?" Or that they WANTED to sit down, > but didn't have the guts to in front of Dumbledore? Who is to say that it has anything to do with fear? Maybe some people just don't LIKE Harry. Frankly, if someone I didn't like was praised for...what did Harry do again? Escape? I don't know if I'd be toasting someone for that, particularly if I didn't like them and preferred that they didn't. Granted, their reasons for disliking Harry may be suspect, but Harry doesn't paint them in the best light, either. > But again, they are calling friend someone who says that. They are no > better than the white folks who hid in their homes and said, "Well, > it's not my place to stop a lynching?" I don't think this comparison holds up. Harry doesn't get lynched by Draco Malfoy. They're rivals, and they get into scuffs, but the books don't show us anything NEAR that cruel going on between them (and what does happen doesn't happen for the same reasons as lynching did). They're like two squabbling children. No one is going to get in the middle of that. And yes, I think Draco's a nasty little kid, but I don't see Harry holding out an olive branch anytime soon. > Understandable that they would be afraid? Absolutely. Admirable? > Definitely not. I think it's more likely that the other Slytherins simply don't care about Harry (or Draco). Many people are apathetic about what goes on around them, as long as it doesn't directly affect their lives. What goes on between Harry and Draco/Crabbe/Goyle is really not the other Slytherins' business, unless something truly horrible is going on. And there's nothing wrong with this non-interference, considering how little Harry cares for them. I don't like the "either you're with us or against us" argument...it doesn't leave a place for people who don't agree with either side. Or people who don't care. If you agree with Voldemort, you're "bad." If you disagree, you're "good." If you don't agree with either of them and won't choose a side, are you bad? I don't think so. > Who picks the Slyths? The essence of Salazar Slytherin himself, the > same guy who despised what he felt as a lower class so much that he > left behind a monster to kill them. The Sorting Hat places kids based on the traits the Founders prized in their students (I think). Slytherins are ambitious. That doesn't necessarily make them Muggle-haters. >And the facts are that, other than > Snape's conversion to Dumbledore's side, we have no concrete examples > of a Slytherin doing anything decent, and Snape seems to be taking > out that decent act on any Gryffindor within snarling distance. We also have no concrete examples (that I can think of) of any kids other than Draco's cronies doing anything indecent (excluding Quidditch...everyone seems to get a bit extreme when it comes to that sport). The actions of a couple of kids shouldn't determine how the entire House is viewed. -Meesh, happy to see some discussion on the Slytherins From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 5 22:28:47 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:28:47 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die? Fine, Then! References: Message-ID: <008701c31355$b31128e0$6595253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57073 Cindy: Wouldn't it be just *awful* if Hagrid finally meets his mother and that very instant meets his maker, too? He might be so happy that he would come back as an oversize ghost. Wouldn't that be jolly? ;-) me (Izaskun) Wouldn't ot be "awfuler" lol, if he finally meets his mother and it's Fridwulfa who kills him?? Imagine that. Nasty creatures, "wild", those giants. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 5 22:25:13 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:25:13 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The ancient magic of gifts References: <19c.14296993.2be80f38@aol.com> Message-ID: <007d01c31355$392834b0$6595253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57074 Faith: I had always assumed they sent him gifts because Dumbledore went out of the way every year to send them an owl, asking if they wanted to send a gift to their nephew. So they sent little junk, rather than not send anything and risk Dumbledores wrath. Me (izaskun): I agree with you, and that'd explain how the Dursleys manage to send Harry the presents, they couldn't do it by muggle post, and they certainly don't own an owl. This is something that had been bothering me since I first read the books, because it was never explained, and somehow I couldn't picture the Dursleys trying to find out by themselves how to send Christmas presents to their "beloved" nephew. Cheers. Izaskun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 5 23:07:42 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:07:42 -0000 Subject: No magic outside school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mmemalkin" wrote: > Sorry if this has already been discussed... > Petunia Dursley grew up with Lily, and presumably knew that she > wasn't allowed to do magic outside of school. ....edited... > It's possible she thinks the ban isn't important because she's so > afraid Harry will use magic anyway, ...edited.... > Any ideas? > > ~Diane >Kathy: > Well, this is just further proof of the theory that the magical > restriction of underage wizards is, indeed, a crock ...edited... bboy_mn: Another one of my favorite topics, mainly because I have it all figured out. If you don't believe me, then just ask me ;). First let me point out the it is the 'Decree for the REASONABLE Restriction of Underage Sorcery' no the ABSOLUTE Restiction of Underage Socery. That means students are able to do reasonable magic. Fred and George must be doing magic all the time at home during the summer in order to be able to invent all those tricks and magic jokes. At the World Cup, Ron, Hermione, and Harry do Lumos wand illumination charms. Kids do magic on the Hogwart's train. So here is my theory- We are really dealing with two law here 'Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery' and 'International Code of Wizarding Secrecy'. The most important law, one that encompasses the mission of every Ministry of magic in the world, is the International Code of Secrey that establishes that all wizard must activitely try to prevent the muggles from finding out about the wizard world, and establishes the the working mandate of the Ministry of Magic. Breaking this law is a serious crime. The other law says that students aren't suppose to use magic outside of school except under certain reasonable circumstances like emergencies, when they are in supervised and/or controlled environment, etc.... Violation of this law in a way that doesn't cause a public nuisance and isn't detected by muggles is considered a very minor misdemeanor along of mischief, and isn't worth the Ministries bother. Most juvenile magic in the magic world would only bring a warning if it got out of hand, otherwise, it's ignored. Juvenile magic that is detected by the muggle world would be dealt with more severly. If that's true then why did Harry get a warning for the Levitation spell that Dobby performed? First, I think the Ministry is specifically monitoring Harry's place. Partly so the have instant notification if any Death Eaters or Voldemort try anything at Privite Drive. Harry is a very important person in the wizarding world; important in their past, and more important in their future, so the Ministry of Magic would want to protect him. Plus, Harry lives with muggles and in the muggle world. Not everyone in the Ministry may be aware to what extent the Dursleys know about the wizard world, and then there are other who do know how much the Dursleys know about and hate the wizard world. In either case, the Ministry would not want any magic going on in the Dursleys house. Fred and George on the other hand live with wizards in an isolated area, and are mostly performing magic in their room. Not much risk of exposure under those circumstances. So while the Ministry may know about it, they have better things to do then police the bedroom of every kid in the wizard world. So juvenile magic that risks exposure of the wizard world is a serious crime; juvenile magic that is contain and out of sight is just mischief. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Mon May 5 23:12:39 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:12:39 -0000 Subject: Hagrid Death Question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505234511.02d80440@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57076 Steve (bboy_mn), (quoting Troels?): "As I understand it much weight is put on the fact that Mr Coltrane apparently only has a contract covering the first five movies. Question: Is Coltrane signed up for a 5 YEAR contact or a five MOVIE contract. Does anyone know for sure? " This is just one reason we should *completely* ignore the movie while trying to figure out canon. Even if we did know what Robbie Coltrane's contract says, there's about a zillion reasons why he might have a five year/movie/whatever contract that don't involve him being whacked in book five. I wouldn't sign on for that long unless I knew that if the movie series was a huge smash and my character was really popular then *I* could get some more money out of it. I think we oughta calm down about the Coltrane contract. There's plenty of reasons why Hagrid's death would serve JKR's thematic and dramatic purposes. Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Mon May 5 23:27:48 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:27:48 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57077 Indyattic: "An earlier post suggested that Hermione was perhaps better suited to Ravenclaw. This post led me 'round to thinking that perhaps that the McGonagall relationship is the very reason the Sorting Hat placed her in McGonagall's house, instead of the seemingly logical Ravenclaw." Linda: "I think Hermione proved why she is in Gryffindor in SS; "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And Cleverness! There are more important things-friendship and bravery and-oh Harry- be careful!"< The books and cleverness that are so symbolic to Ravenclaw are not the most important thing to Hermione and the sorting hat was able to discern that." I think both ideas are good ones - Minerva [goddess of war] McGonagall ["son (sic) of the most valorous one"] is a union of brains and guts herself, perhaps, and will understand Hermione very well. But there's another possibility - a higher purpose. Hermione might find it out if Dumbledore ever gets around to having a tete-a-tete with her. It might go something like this: [Fic fragment follows] Hermione blushed - unusual for someone used to praise. "I suppose you mean Harry, Headmaster," she said. "All I've done is help a friend who needed it." Dumbledore looked back at her over his glasses. "Needed it indeed, Miss Granger. But I cannot recall a student who was better suited to render the help Mr. Potter needs, or who benefitted more from giving help. Miss Granger, have you ever wondered why you were not sorted into Ravenclaw?" "Actually I have." Hermione looked thoughtful. "Books, and cleverness, and academics - I would have thought so. Do you believe I was sorted wrongly? Is that what this is about?" "Oh, you misunderstand me." The twinkle in Dumbledore's eyes was dancing now. "There seldom was a better Sorting. What does the Sorting Hat do?" "The Sorting Hat places students in the Houses best suited to the student's temperament and abilities," Hermione answered. She frowned a little - wasn't this obvious? Where is he going with this? "Not exactly," Dumbledore answered her. "At least, not always. What does the Hat say? 'Try me on and I will tell you where you ought to be'. Ought to be, Miss Granger. Have you ever considered that the Hat might take into account a larger purpose than the student under it?" Hermione's face reflected the confusion that filled her. "But, Professor, you can't mean that I was put into Gryffindor... because of Harry? He was sorted after me, how could that be? And the Hat almost put Harry into Slytherin." "Even I do not know the limits of what the Sorting Hat knows, or how it knows it. Or what the Hat sees. But the Hat does know, just as it knew you. It knew that there was more to you than you knew yourself. You may have been a Ravenclaw at heart then, but never a truer Gryffindor now. The need and the person together." Dumbledore was very serious. "You are not the same person as the day you walked in this school. Among the great you will be, Miss Granger." From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 5 23:44:00 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: <003f01c31352$e630cdf0$6595253e@takun> Message-ID: <20030505234400.9984.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57078 Izaskun wrote: > > Pettigrew's robes were intact?? From what we > know animagi transform and their robes > transform with them, we see McGonagall > transforming and keeping her robes, we see > Sirius transform with his Azkaban robes as > well. So when Pettigrew transformed himself, > there were not robes left behind, the only > thing the MoM found was his finger and they > assumed he had been blown up, not > disintegrated, the finger being the biggest > part left. Lynn: "And Black was standing there laughing, with what was left of Pettigrew in front of him ... a heap of blood-stained robes and a few - a few fragments - " (PoA, pg. 155, UK) We know how the robes got to be blood-stained, when Pettigrew cut off his finger, which was the only thing the MoM found. There was no mention that the robes were tattered, torn, burned, only blood-stained. Now, that would make me suspicious that things weren't as they seemed, particularly if the finger didn't look like it was blown off but rather cut. Also, no mention is made of Pettigrew's wand. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jmmears at comcast.net Mon May 5 23:45:10 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:45:10 -0000 Subject: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die? Fine, Then! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > I was just scrolling through the "Who Is The Death That JKR Says > Will Be Horrible To Write?" poll, and I notice a rather disturbing > statistics. > > Forty-eight percent of voters (213 people) predict Hagrid will go to > the great beyond in OoP. > > > > I'm still thinking the smart money is on Hermione, myself. I must admit that Hermione being the one to die does have it's appealing features (the best one being the final resolution of all those really fascinating ship debates, but I just can't see JK doing that to Ron and Harry. Not yet anyway!::evil grin:: Cindy continues: Be that > as it may, I'm willing to get rid of Hagrid if you guys absolutely > insist. The problem, though, is the thorny question of the means of > Hagrid's demise. > > So forget *whether* Hagrid will die. Let's jump right to *how* > Hagrid will die, shall we? The possibilities: Eh, I don't know...none of these options really floats my boat, although I do kinda like the "clawing at the mud, squid-tenticles" notion. Do lethifolds even come big enough to take down Hagrid? No, I want him to go out with the most shocking, most angsty, most horribly Bangy Bang of all .... I want him to die at the hands of ::gasp:: the good guys. Okay, here's the scenario: Hagrid has absolutely no clue that Sirius Black is innocent, right? He still hates his guts, still thinks he's a threat to Harry, and still regrets that he hadn't..."got ter Black before little Pettigrew did, I wouldn't've messed around with wands -- I'd've ripped him limb - from - limb." PoA, Chapter 10, p208 US hardback. Now, what if at some point in OOP, poor Hagrid stumbles upon Black meeting with Harry, Ron and Hermione. Maybe Sirius is really furious with Harry for taking some sort of stupid risk, and he's shouting, and generally reaming him out. Hagrid assumes, as he would, that Black is finally about to finish Harry off and so he comes at him in a blind rage. Oh, HRH *try* to tell him that Sirius is not a threat and isn't going to harm them, but Hagrid is in no state to listen to reason. Sirius has no wand and can't defend himself, and HRH can't let Hagrid murder Sirius as he is surely about to, can they? So what *can* they do? Well, what do you *think* they do? I figure three Stunning spells from the increasingly powerful junior Wizards would probably be enough to take him down. Which would be fine, except that he happens to be right next to: 1. a really tall cliff. He could even :wince: be impaled on a tree as he falls! 2. the lake. The deep, deep, bottomless lake. He falls in and sinks like a boulder before the trio can do a floating spell. He could even be pulled under by your giant squid, if you like (although, sadly without the mud-clawing, since he *is* stunned after all). I don't know about the squid, though. It seems to me it would be more likely to rescue Hagrid, based on their long-standing friendship and the fact that he scooped little Dennis Creevy out when he fell in (unless it was just "throwing him back" because he was too small to eat). Maybe the squid has been co-opted by Voldy (Deatheater!Squid theory)? Anyway, you get the idea. It's so poignant. Imagine the guilt! The exquisite angst possibilities! It's Harrys!Choice! So, what do you think? Jo Serenadust, hoping to earn her FEATHERBOAS, even if she can't quite come up with any Bloody Ambush theories at the moment. From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Mon May 5 23:54:44 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:54:44 -0000 Subject: Question about Narcissa and the DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57080 Elisabeth wrote: Thank you for your reply, it was very interesting!! And it gave me a new thought (frightening, isn't it!?) Tom replies: Thanks - this Dark Arts/Lucius/Snape/Karkaroff stuff has been on my mind a lot lately, 'cause I have this seemingly eternal-post that I've been working on that just... won't... conclude... Out of frustration, I figured I'd send out parts of it when they're relevant to discussion, to see if it's worth continuing to work on. Elisabeth continued: A while back there was a thread about Snape's reaction to Harry's mention of Lucius at the DE reunion (at the end of GoF). I wondered then if Snape was surprised that Lucius had returned to Voldie because perhaps he believed that Lucius had repented of his ways so to speak...My new thought is this: perhaps he truly did believe that Lucius was under the imperious curse those many years ago, and part of the reason he worked to bring Voldie down was to help friends that he believed were under a spell--only to find out differently when Harry gives the news? Tom replies: Yeah - I know there's been debate on what exactly Snape's 'sudden movement' is supposed to be referring, but since it comes directly after Harry's mention of Lucius, I'm convinced that there's something going on there with Malfoy - particularly when we add it to Snape's preference for Draco, and interestingly enough, Draco's preference for Snape. See, quickly here, Draco (to me) seems to be a kind of repository for his parents thoughts on a variety of subjects, from Dumbledore, to Durmstrang, and to Muggle-borns. And since Draco obviously loves Snape so much, I think it's highly unlikely that Lucius and Narcissa spend much time engaging in 'Snape-bashing' discussions at home. Which begs several 'why' oriented questions: Are they not aware that Snape was a Death Eater? Is Snape not aware that Lucius was? Are they not aware that he turned spy, presumably against them? Or, most interestingly, are they aware, but don't care? Elisabeth wrote: No, Lucius isn't a great guy. Yes, the Malfoys have an interest in the Dark Arts. However, as you said, that doesn't necessarily make someone a DE. Maybe he genuinely likes Lucius and had hoped that he told the truth about acting under the Imperious curse--sometimes being close to someone can cause us to be blind about them. That would also explain another of my problems: why would the Malfoys allow their son to be taught by a man who betrayed Voldie to Dumbledore? One would think Lucius would try to exact some sort of revenge. If he is sticking to his story and all, then he would have to pretend to like Severus. END QUOTE. Tom writes: You see my point? This stuff has been driving me bonkers, because there are too many little things that don't jive together. Elisabeth wrote: Hmmm...I spend way too much time thinking about this stuff! At least I'm among friends! =) Tom replies: Thank goodness for, that, eh, especially when my tangible friends don't read HP, and consider me a little crazy for loving it so - of course, nevermind discussion theories! Luckily, the tide is turning... ;-) -Tom From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 6 00:04:45 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:04:45 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57081 I (Darrin) wrote: > > And I never said that the Slyths thought as one unit. Draco and > MANY > > others sat down when Dumbledore was praising Harry's courage -- a > > courageous act that included bringing back Cedric's body, who the > > Slyths allegedly were SO mournful for, expressed by standing up > when > > everyone else did. > Meesh: > > How do you know that they weren't sincere about standing up for > Cedric? I'm not saying that it's certain that they WERE sincere, but nowhere in the tone of that scene does JKR hint that they rose for any other reason. At least from what I can tell. > Me: > > Who is to say the other Slyths just didn't think of it and > privately said, "oh, yeah, good one, Draco?" Or that they WANTED to sit down, but didn't have the guts to in front of Dumbledore? > Meesh: > Who is to say that it has anything to do with fear? Maybe some > people just don't LIKE Harry. Frankly, if someone I didn't like was praised for...what did Harry do again? Escape? I don't know if I'd be toasting someone for that, particularly if I didn't like them and preferred that they didn't. > Me: I think Harry did a bit more than escape. He duelled with one of the most powerful wizards in the world AND got away from grown men and he risked his life to bring peace to the Diggory family by getting Cedric's body. And again, they stood up for Diggory BEFORE they found out Voldemort was behind it. Once Voldemort was revealed to be behind it, THAT is when the Slyths like Draco and MANY others revealed how they felt about the matter. Me: > > But again, they are calling friend someone who says that. They are > no better than the white folks who hid in their homes and said, "Well,it's not my place to stop a lynching?" > Meesh: > I don't think this comparison holds up. Harry doesn't get lynched by Draco Malfoy. They're rivals, and they get into scuffs, but the > books don't show us anything NEAR that cruel going on between them > (and what does happen doesn't happen for the same reasons as lynching did). They're like two squabbling children. No one is going to get in the middle of that. > Draco has tried to injure Harry during the PoA Quidditch match. Draco openly calls for the deaths of those less pure than he is. Draco hasn't yet committed an evil act, like his dad. But give him time. He'll get there. Meesh: > And yes, I think Draco's a nasty little kid, but I don't see Harry > holding out an olive branch anytime soon. Me: So now it's on Harry to make it up? After everything from being called "scarhead" to having Draco's dad mock his parents' death to having to listen to Draco brag about how "Diggory was just the first" to all the times Draco has tried to get him in trouble? It's on HARRY to make the first move? Give unto me a break. Me: > > Understandable that they would be afraid? Absolutely. Admirable? > > Definitely not. > Meesh: > I think it's more likely that the other Slytherins simply don't care > about Harry (or Draco). Many people are apathetic about what goes on around them, as long as it doesn't directly affect their lives. What goes on between Harry and Draco/Crabbe/Goyle is really not the other Slytherins' business, unless something truly horrible is going on. And there's nothing wrong with this non-interference, considering how little Harry cares for them. > Again, it's on Harry to reach out to the Slyths to get them to do the decent thing and smack Draco in the back of the head and tell him to shut up. Well, since the Slyths can't think for themselves, apparently, I suppose that's true. All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to remain silent. That's MLK's quote. I'll add my own. All it takes for evil to flourish is for cowards to do what comes naturally. Meesh: > I don't like the "either you're with us or against us" argument...it doesn't leave a place for people who don't agree with either side. Or people who don't care. If you agree with Voldemort, you're "bad." If you disagree, you're "good." If you don't agree with either of them and won't choose a side, are you bad? I don't think so. > Me: Yeah, if you agree with someone advocating genocide of muggle- borns YOU'RE BAD! I said it. I'm proud to feel that way. People have to take a stand at some point. And if a wizard is not willing to stand against genocide, then what is he willing to stand against? Meesh: > > Who picks the Slyths? The essence of Salazar Slytherin himself, the same guy who despised what he felt as a lower class so much that he left behind a monster to kill them. > > The Sorting Hat places kids based on the traits the Founders prized > in their students (I think). Slytherins are ambitious. That doesn't necessarily make them Muggle-haters. > Me: Show me a Slyth who isn't and then we'll talk. Show me a Slytherin who is part Muggle and then I'll buy it. As of now, we have no evidence that any of them aren't pureblood. Me: > >And the facts are that, other than > > Snape's conversion to Dumbledore's side, we have no concrete > examples > > of a Slytherin doing anything decent, and Snape seems to be taking > out that decent act on any Gryffindor within snarling distance. > Meesh: > We also have no concrete examples (that I can think of) of any kids > other than Draco's cronies doing anything indecent (excluding > Quidditch...everyone seems to get a bit extreme when it comes to that > sport). The actions of a couple of kids shouldn't determine how the entire House is viewed. > Me: Flint - participating in trying to sabotage Harry Pansy - gossipy and catty and trying to bring down Hermione Millicent - physically attacking Hermione And again, WHERE are the rest of the Slyths who are so outraged by this? And while there is extreme behavior during Quidditch, only the Slytherins are without honor. Cedric tries to give up a victory because of Dementor interference. Harry refuses to slam into Cho, even though she's blocking his path and it's a legit move to knock someone out of the way when they do that. Bravery is worth more than cunning. Darrin From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Tue May 6 00:09:20 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:09:20 -0500 Subject: The color Purple Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57082 OK, so somebody, I don't remember who, recently mentioned the color Purple and what significance it might or might not have in the HP books or the Wizarding World in general. So: here goes. The color purple has been connected to royalty since ancient times. The ancient Phoenicians created purple dye for cloth out of a certain shellfish from the area. The shellfish was extremely rare, and thus the dye, and the cloth produced with it, was incredibly expensive. Thus, the only consumers who could afford to wear purple were those of extreme wealth, such as royalty. The Wizarding World is, as we all know, a very traditional place. This traditional connotation might have persisted into the modern Wizarding culture from ancient times. We learned in school that one form of advertizing is "snob appeal," basically meaning that the ads say "This product's so good, only the best people use it." The prevalent use of the color purple might be a type of snob appeal - "This product is fit for royalty! buy it!" Or JKR might just like the color. Hobbit_guy, who has GOT to get out more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From byujava at yahoo.com Tue May 6 00:00:34 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] LV's mudblood ancestry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506000034.29818.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57083 --- waters_law wrote: > Actually, I find LV's mudblood "taint" to be one of > the things that > make him a more realistic character. Historically, > evildoers are > often motivated by the percieved need to obliterate > a portion of > themselves. For example, Hitler is believed to have > been motivated > by his fear that he was in fact of Jewish descent. > I also just read > a book about Manson which stated that there was some > indication that > he had an African American ancestor, making his > desire to start a > race war rather ironic. > > "Waters Law" Kirsten: I definitely agree. I think all of these evil people, when it comes down to it, hate themselves for one reason or another. They try to associate it with some part of them and then turn that hatred on others who share those traits. Voldie wishes he had been born a 'pure blood,' Hitler wished that he was Aryan, etc. It's definitely a fascinating concept. -Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From c4bchief at yahoo.com Mon May 5 23:39:30 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:39:30 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57084 Meesh, happy to see some discussion on the Slytherins: > We also have no concrete examples (that I can think of) of any kids > other than Draco's cronies doing anything indecent (excluding > Quidditch...everyone seems to get a bit extreme when it comes to that sport). The actions of a couple of kids shouldn't determine how the entire House is viewed. > I will have to respectfully disagree here. I believe we have every right to judge an entire house by the actions of a few. First.. Remember this is a book and JKR can't write about the actions of every single student. So she gives us a core to base our judgements. She is telling us via those handful of house members what to expect and how to judge them. Second.. With remembarance to my first point, I have yet to see a single good deed mentioned performed by a slytherin. You bring up the point of being ambitious, and that the trait alone doesn't make someone bad. However, It shows nothing in the way of being good as of yet. JKR has yet to show any Slytherin member doing anything positive or helpful in any situation. (Except Snape, and thats for other reasons) My thoughts. Would love to keep the argument goin. Joe From errolowl at yahoo.com Tue May 6 00:29:00 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:29:00 -0000 Subject: Crushes on female characters (Was: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57085 >>Cindy -- wondering if guys crush on the HP female characters, and if not, why not<< Ah! Now there's a fun thread...time to trot out my bent inclinations, eh Cindy? I tell ya, you've opened a can of worms But to start off, I have to protest. The women on this list have it easy when it comes to well defined characters. We guys have to depend on active imaginations more often than not....but then, when you can place Avery on a list you give us no room for excuses. Very well then captain, off we go with absolutely no regard of age... The front runners: 1. Rosemerta : oh, she wins every time. I'm with Darrin and Ersatz Harry on that . Curvy Bartender. Beauty. And sass (you've got to love sparkly turquoise high heels). And class. She doesn't fawn (she has that *edge* in her voice when she talks to the minister doesn't she?) And she can think for herself too. Note she still has trouble believing Sirius went over to the other side. Got to admire a woman who won't start every second sentence with "well anyway, everybody says...." And what's with all the "m'dears" from Fudge? Makes a guys hackles rise that does! 2. Mrs Lestrange: Right, she's got less canon that even Avery. But she does make an impact and I'm surprised no one else brought her up. Dangerous, that's the word. It would take quite a man to keep pace with her. Vicious. Wild. Fiery. Regal. Tempestuous. Temptress...but ice cold deep down. The ice princess with a twist.... 3. Narcissa Malfoy: Darrin said it best. The allure of an ice princess. The confidence. The arrogance. The cold fa?ade that perhaps hides an inner fire... sigh. I can see a lot of guys idolizing her, pining with unrequited love.. or lust. 4. Fleur: Hot. Who cares about anything else? Besides, she was a champion so she obviously has *some* talent. But I must admit that being one of a pack hanging around her is a definite no. Nah, she'll have to be the one coming on strong... 5. Angelina: sporty, sportive, and she definitely has a sense of humor if she hangs around with Fred. She was a strong contender for champion too. I'd imagine she'd be attractive, if not strictly pretty. Aggressive and confident too...and yet again Darrin took the words out of my mouth: >>I just love the way she takes it in stride when Fred says, "Oy, Angelina! Want to go to the ball" and she says, "Well, all right then." Now THAT sounds like a girl I could be on beer and pizza terms with. Some girls like to think they could do the beer and pizza, but not all of you can, ladies.<< Hear, hear! The second tier: 6. Hermione: smart, sassy, loyal, confident (or apparently so) with an underlying vulnerability. She's great fun..but is in danger of the "just a pal" syndrome quite a few ladies I know complain of. She's not good looking *yet*, though she definitely has potential, and the Yule ball upped her crushability tremendously. (Note- no movie contamination...I still see a bushy haired know it all, with a backpack slung on her shoulders, nose in a book. The kind who would probably not recognize a compliment, or give a sarcastic reply even if she did). That's impression is changing though. She's much more self aware now - oh yes, there are definite possibilities. 7. Cho Chang: Nice, attractive, spunky, sporty, loyal. For some weird reason she didn't have a high crush potential for me till the end of GoF. But that vulnerable scene at the feast did it. [Hurt-comfort anyone?] 8. Hooch: one of the few teachers to make the list, and with due movie contamination (those eyes!). Sporty and sassy, you could fall for her faster than you can say "Quidditch" 9. Pansy: Some Neanderthal reaction I guess. A simpering female who fawns over you, is anxious when you're wounded, jumps to your defense, never steals your limelight and is of course very pretty. If Draco sees something in her, who am I to argue? 10. Olympe Maxime: The very name has some Oomph! Her being a Headmistress and her sheer size pose intimidating problems, but I certainly can't fault Hagrid. There's beauty, grace, intelligence and a certain French seductiveness going for her--but the clinching factor is her Single-malt horses. 11. McGonagall: Starchy and prickly exterior. But once you get past the grandmother effect (very very difficult), there's quite a case to be built for her. Intelligence, sarcasm and authority, with a totally mushy core. Probably reads romance novels in her room. Poor lonely misunderstood Minerva. 12. Patils: Umm, not developed enough. They're described as beautiful though a trifle too giggly, or atleast Parvati is. We don't know about Padma do we? Parvati does jump to Harry's defense in the PS rememberall incident, so she show some spunk. There's potential. 13. Lavender: Ditto Parvati, with the Binky incident counting against her. And that's a nice round number to stop at. Katie & Alicia are too insignificant in the scheme of things to crush on. Ginny is too much the little sister, Myrtle has way too much angst (gosh, do we seriously consider her?) Skeeter is poisonous, her painted nails not withstanding, though I can't speak for others. Pomfry, Sprout, and (gasp) Trelawney ? you got to be kidding! Molly? That would be practically incestuous. Petunia and Millicent are definite NOs, and Lily ? well, Lily is too dead. But Florence we need more of. She's definitely got intrigue . And bring on the new DADA teacher Errol "Perverted pedophiles" would make a *horrible* name for a band, don't you think Darrin? From heidit at netbox.com Tue May 6 00:29:22 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:29:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57086 Darren wrote: **other than > Snape's conversion to Dumbledore's side, we have no concrete examples > of a Slytherin doing anything decent** I beg to differ. Draco's actions at the World Cup, when he told the Trio to get out of the way of the marauding death eaters and even gave some direction on how to do it was not a bad act (although his language wasn't perfectly nice) and could, in fact, be deemed "decent". And the act of the students who stood to toast Harry was clearly at least arguably decent. Also, Darren keeps accusing the Slytherins of cheating in Quidditch. I have to say, I have no idea what he's going on about. There are hundreds of ways to foul in Quidditch, but - perhaps someone more familiar with basketball or soccer can explain - if you foul someone, is that a cheat? Or does it - presuming fair refs - just lead to the other side getting a penalty shot? I reread the G vs S match in CoS right now, and I don't see one act that could be deemed a "cheat" by the Slytherin team. I guess that draco, crabbe, Goyle and Marcus's actions in PoA with the dementor garb could be deemed a cheat, but they weren't playing, only 2 of the people involved were on the team, and none of their other housemates or even teammates were involved. Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 6 00:59:05 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:59:05 -0000 Subject: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die? Fine, Then! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: > > Cindy continues: > Be that > > as it may, I'm willing to get rid of Hagrid if you guys absolutely > > insist. > > The problem, though, is the thorny question of the means of > > Hagrid's demise. > > > > So forget *whether* Hagrid will die. Let's jump right to *how* > > Hagrid will die, shall we? The possibilities: > > > > Serenadust: > No, I want him to go out with the most shocking, most angsty, most horribly Bangy Bang of all .... I want him to die at the hands > of ::gasp:: the good guys.<< That's pretty good, but I've got a better one, IMNSHO. What if Hagrid dies at the firebreathing jaws of Norbert? Maximum Harry angst! If only he hadn't broken the rules to save Norbert, Hagrid might still be alive... Pippin From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue May 6 01:05:31 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:05:31 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: <3EB69E92.25757.88E4C52@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57088 > On 5 May 2003 at 21:04, jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > > The fourteen year old girl in me, though, has > > a wild crush on him --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" wrote: > > Jenny, you are not alone! My fourteen-year-old self is right there with yours, I can > guarantee you that, ogling poor Harry and wishing she could make all his hurts go Mel bashfully joins in the reminiscing with: Oh dear...there's my fourteen year old self gazing at that dark haired, dark eyed boy over there who's sooooo, so good at all the really cool hexes and wasn't it hilarious what he did to Professor Binns in class this morning, I didn't know you could hex a ghost and neither apparently, did the professor. Mel From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 6 01:17:45 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:17:45 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57089 Heidi wrote: > I beg to differ. > > Draco's actions at the World Cup, when he told the Trio to get out of the way of the marauding death eaters and even gave some direction on how to do it was not a bad act (although his language wasn't perfectly nice) and could, in fact, be deemed "decent". > > And the act of the students who stood to toast Harry was clearly at least arguably decent. He taunted the Trio. I got the impression he didn't give one damn whether Hermione really got out of the way or not. And like I continually say, I have a hard time believing he was going to try to protect Hermione when later on, he's bragging about how Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers would be killed first, no wait, second, since Diggory, who he stood to honor BEFORE finding out Voldemort was involved. Now, I will concede that there is an opening. Draco was alone in the World Cup forest and was with his boys at the ending train scene. You could argue the later time was an act, although why he'd worry about impressing Crabbe and Goyle is beyond me. Surely, THEY wouldn't suggest going to taunt the Trio in the train car and Draco had to go along? I don't believe that, but I do concede it is an opening, should JKR wish to try to squeeze Draco through it. > > Also, Darren keeps accusing the Slytherins of cheating in Quidditch. > > I have to say, I have no idea what he's going on about. > > There are hundreds of ways to foul in Quidditch, but - perhaps someone more familiar with basketball or soccer can explain - if you foul someone, is that a cheat? Or does it - presuming fair refs - just lead to the other side getting a penalty shot? > I reread the G vs S match in CoS right now, and I don't see one act that could be deemed a "cheat" by the Slytherin team. I guess that draco, crabbe, Goyle and Marcus's actions in PoA with the dementor garb could be deemed a cheat, but they weren't playing, only 2 of the people involved were on the team, and none of their other housemates or even teammates were involved. Let's not take my word for it, hmmm? Let's listen to the Quidditch teacher and referee, Madame Hooch, in PoA, page 228 "Penalty! Penalty to Gryffindor! I've never seen such tactics," Madame Hooch SCREECHED. (emphasis mine) There are incidental fouls and deliberate fouls. The Slyths entire tactics are based on beating people up. And if you don't consider trying to sabotage Harry to the point where it's life-threatening - a reasonable interpretation of dressing up like a Dementor - to be cheating, then I'm sorry. People get all worked up about Sirius' prank on Snape, well, that little Dementor stunt could have seriously injured Harry, had he hit the ground. But not our ickle Drackykins! No, he can't have done that! By the way, Crabbe and Goyle were there too, so we have four Slyths, including the team captain, who carries a LOT of weight in a house. If you can't trust a seventh-year Quidditch captain to know better, who can you trust? And before you compare him to Oliver, remember that Oliver told Cedric "no, it was fair and square" even though it wasn't, after the Gryff-Hufflepuff match. Darrin -- Ickle Drackykins. I'm copyrighting that as a band name. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue May 6 01:39:20 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) Message-ID: <20030506013920.58102.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57090 --- Heidi wrote: > Also, Darren keeps accusing the Slytherins of > cheating in Quidditch. > > There are hundreds of ways to foul in > Quidditch, but - perhaps someone more familiar > with basketball or soccer can explain - if you > foul someone, is that a cheat? Or does it - > presuming fair refs - just lead to the other > side getting a penalty shot? Lynn: That depends on how you look at the foul. To me, if you're just trying to stop someone from scoring, that's a foul. When you try to stop them from scoring by deliberately injuring them to take them out of the game, that's cheating. Also, if you deliberately try to injure someone who isn't in a scoring position, that's cheating. For example: In PS, Flint blocks Harry as Harry is going for the Snitch. If Flint was just trying to block Harry to prevent him from getting the snitch, that's a foul even if Harry had accidently gotten hurt. If Flint purposely blocked Harry in such a way as to try to make Harry fall off his broomstick which could injure him and take him out of the game, then that's cheating. In PoA, the match between Gryffindor and Slytherin, has some good examples. (paraphrasing text, PoA, pp. 226-229, UK) Angelina had just scored and didn't have the Quaffle. She was nearly thrown from her broom as Flint went smashing into her. That was cheating, not a foul. It was called an unprovoked attacked and was done to deliberately injure a player with the intention of taking her out of the game (I personally don't believe Flint when he says he didn't see her). You could argue that Fred Weasley also cheated when he chucked his Beater's club at Flint after that. How much that club could injure a player and take them out of the game would be the deciding factor. Though, on Fred's side, it was a reaction rather than a direct action so it probably was a lucky shot that he hit Flint. Still, an argument could be made either way. Continuing on, when Montague seizes Katie Bell's head rather than the Quaffle in such a way that Katie cartwheeled in the air and just managed to stay on her broom, that's cheating, deliberate attempt to prevent someone from scoring by causing them injury. The two beaters, Bole and Derrick zoomed toward Harry with their clubs raised. They were attempting to cheat by injuring but were outsmarted by Harry. Bole hitting Alicia saying he thought she was a bludger was cheating. George Weasley elbowing Bole in retaliation would be a foul as it doesn't appear that George was attempting to injure Bole enough to take him out of the game. Bole and Derrick hitting the bludgers at Wood when he wasn't trying to defend the goals was cheating. Malfoy grabbing onto Harry's Firebolt was a foul. He attempted to stop someone from scoring without injuring the person. Penalty shots don't matter if the other team purposely injures a key player, and in Quidditch they are all key. They then have an unfair advantage in the game that penalty shots will never make up. In basketball and soccer when a player deliberatly fouls someone with intent to injure, they are thrown out of the game. In ice hockey, their team is penalized by that player having to sit out a specified period of time and the injured team gets a definite advantage. In addition, many times the league will penalize the player and/or the team by fines or making the offending player sit out a specified period of games. Of course, in my opinion, it should be even harsher. If someone on a team deliberately fouls with intent to injure and does injure, the team of the offender should lose a player of equal importance to the team for the amount of time the injured player is lost to their team. In this game, if players could be sent off as they are in basketball or soccer when they foul with the intent to injure, Slytherin would have been left with the Keeper, one Chaser and their Seeker. In my opinion, based on this game, Slytherin cheats. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 6 01:49:47 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:49:47 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > > > On 5 May 2003 at 21:04, jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > > > > The fourteen year old girl in me, though, has > > > a wild crush on him > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" > wrote: > > > > Jenny, you are not alone! My fourteen-year-old self is right there > with yours, I can > > guarantee you that, ogling poor Harry and wishing she could make > all his hurts go > > > Mel bashfully joins in the reminiscing with: > Oh dear...there's my fourteen year old self gazing at that dark > haired, dark eyed boy over there who's sooooo, so good at all the > really cool hexes and wasn't it hilarious what he did to Professor > Binns in class this morning, I didn't know you could hex a ghost and > neither apparently, did the professor. > > > Mel All right, count me in! Though I have to admit I do go more maternal when Harry's in a REALLY bad spot -- like the graveyard. Well, okay, maternal AND fourteen again. Both at once. Annemehr who found she was a definite "Hurt-Comfort" when she saw Lupin at the top of Cindy's list... and who is really enjoying reading the guys' crushes and ratings From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 6 02:00:08 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 02:00:08 -0000 Subject: Crushes on female characters (Was: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57092 Errol Owl: > > But to start off, I have to protest. The women on this list have it > easy when it comes to well defined characters. We guys have to depend > on active imaginations more often than not....but then, when you can > place Avery on a list you give us no room for excuses. > Very well then captain, off we go with absolutely no regard of age... > The wonder is that ladies didn't put MacNair the Executioner on the list...= something like "He's sexy because he's so strong and silent and has such a= brutal job, but maintains it all so stoically." Sheesh. Next we'll hear how Alberforth Dumbledore and Vernon Dursley is sexy. > The front runners: > 1. Rosemerta : oh, she wins every time. I'm with Darrin and > Ersatz Harry on that contenders for her hand to kill `em all>. Curvy Bartender. > Beauty. And sass (you've got to love sparkly turquoise high heels). > And class. She doesn't fawn (she has that *edge* in her voice when > she talks to the minister doesn't she?) And she can think for herself > too. Note she still has trouble believing Sirius went over to the > other side. Got to admire a woman who won't start every second > sentence with "well anyway, everybody says...." > And what's with all the "m'dears" from Fudge? Makes a > guys hackles rise that does! And she likes humor! She talked about how James and Sirius used to make her laugh all the time! Man, I would LIVE at that tavern. > > 2. Mrs Lestrange: Right, she's got less canon that even Avery. > But she does make an impact and I'm surprised no one else brought her > up. Dangerous, that's the word. It would take quite a man to keep > pace with her. Vicious. Wild. Fiery. Regal. Tempestuous. > Temptress...but ice cold deep down. The ice princess with a twist.... > Wha? I don't know. I have lived through my wild stage where I dated women who were just as likely to plunge a knife in my back (or use it in other pl= aces.) Lived through it. If Narcissa turns out to be a DE, then she falls on my l= ist. Besides, we're MEN! We need to know what Mrs. Lestrange looks like! > 3. Narcissa Malfoy: Darrin said it best. The allure of an ice > princess. The confidence. The arrogance. The cold fa?ade that > perhaps hides an inner fire... sigh. I can see a lot of guys > idolizing her, pining with unrequited love.. or lust. Here is the closest we have to the Hurt!Comfort thing. Why are guys attract= ed to frigid ice princesses? Because we're convinced they wouldn't be frigid if they had us. We're convinced they are just waiting for us to melt them. It's egotistical. It's stupid. It's embarrassing when you find out that, no= oo... she wasn't waiting for you. But, there you go. Our Hurt!Comfort. Call it the Cold!Melt school of thought (and you just KNOW there is a band = name in that) > 4. Fleur: Hot. Who cares about anything else? Besides, she was a > champion so she obviously has *some* talent. But I must admit that > being one of a pack hanging around her is a definite no. Nah, > she'll have to be the one coming on strong... There are countless other chicks from Beauxbatons. Remember Guy Rule #293. Always go after the second-prettiest girl at the party. She'll be thr= illed that you are ignoring the hotter one for her. (Besides, by the time you get= done getting rejected by the hot girl, some other guy will have taken up the sec= ond- and third-... and 34th-prettiest girl) > The second tier: > > 6. Hermione: smart, sassy, loyal, confident (or apparently so) with > an underlying vulnerability. She's great fun..but is in danger of > the "just a pal" syndrome quite a few ladies I know complain > of. She's not good looking *yet*, though she definitely has potential, > and the Yule ball upped her crushability tremendously. (Note- no > movie contamination...I still see a bushy haired know it all, with a > backpack slung on her shoulders, nose in a book. The kind who would > probably not recognize a compliment, or give a sarcastic reply even > if she did). That's impression is changing though. She's much > more self aware now - oh yes, there are definite possibilities. I know. I know. Movie contamination. But DAMN, she cleans up good, don't she? She's got a tad bit of mood swings about her, though. As Ron says, "barking." > 7. Cho Chang: Nice, attractive, spunky, sporty, loyal. For some weird > reason she didn't have a high crush potential for me till the end > of GoF. But that vulnerable scene at the feast did it. [Hurt-comfort > anyone?] The scene where Harry finally works up the courage to ask her out is the on= e that really got me from junior high school, ESPECIALLY when she really seemed to be sorry he hadn't asked her before Cedric did. (Or, she just was= letting the kid down easy, because Cedric was her dream date all along.) Man, how many of us were just a little late in finally getting the guts to = ask the girl? > 8. Hooch: one of the few teachers to make the list, and with due > movie contamination (those eyes!). Sporty and sassy, you could fall > for her faster than you can say "Quidditch" I admit movie contamination here too. Love a girl who likes a fast drive in= the country. > 9. Pansy: Some Neanderthal reaction I guess. A simpering female who > fawns over you, is anxious when you're wounded, jumps to your > defense, never steals your limelight and is of course very > pretty. If Draco sees something in her, who am I to argue? Yeah, but only if your dad is rich and you are pureblood for like two mille= nia. Wayyyy too high-maintenance, man. Remember her reaction to the gold unicorn? She only dates guys six figures and above, my friend. > 10. Olympe Maxime: The very name has some Oomph! Her being a > Headmistress and her sheer size pose intimidating problems, but I > certainly can't fault Hagrid. There's beauty, grace, > intelligence and a certain French seductiveness going for her--but > the clinching factor is her Single-malt horses. Who says we just like skinny girls?! Bring on the big one! > 11. McGonagall: Starchy and prickly exterior. But once you get past > the grandmother effect (very very difficult), there's quite a > case to be built for her. Intelligence, sarcasm and authority, with a > totally mushy core. Probably reads romance novels in her room. Poor > lonely misunderstood Minerva. Check please! Sorry, I don't see it. I also admit to movie contamination he= re, and not in a good way. Very, very difficult indeed. Maybe if my dad were single... > 12. Patils: Umm, not developed enough. They're described as > beautiful though a trifle too giggly, or atleast Parvati is. We don't > know about Padma do we? Parvati does jump to Harry's defense in the > PS rememberall incident, so she show some spunk. There's > potential. Padma is a bit materialistic, but to be fair, Ron's robes were pretty hideo= us, and she was basically playing wing-woman to Parvati. (I'd bet anything Parvati had to talk Padma into going, so Harry would feel better because bo= th he and Ron had dates.) So, at the very least, she's a good sport, and Ron did treat her pretty sha= bbily. > 13. Lavender: Ditto Parvati, with the Binky incident counting against > her. Lavender also dissed my boy Hagrid after the man-hating substitute brought = in the unicorns. Snotty brat. >Myrtle has way too much angst (gosh, do we seriously consider her?) The first guy to treat Myrtle decently would have her so wrapped around his= finger... of course, now she's a ghost. I mean back in the alive days. Besides, if we're talking ghosts, that Grey Lady is probably hotter... >Skeeter is poisonous, her painted nails not withstanding, though I can't = speak for others. You can speak for me. Bleech. > Pomfry, Sprout, and (gasp) Trelawney ? you got to be kidding! In order. Too grandmother. Too aunt. Too crazy aunt locked up in the attic.= > Molly? That would be practically incestuous. True, but I bet she was a hottie, back in the day. > > Errol > "Perverted pedophiles" would make a *horrible* name for a > band, don't you think Darrin? Assuming it's not a band name already, yeah, it would be a bad name for a band. Also a bad name for a list group. Darrin -- Cold Melt would be a great name for a band. From jodel at aol.com Tue May 6 02:07:25 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 22:07:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2761 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57093 > Katy states; > > Well, this is just further proof of the theory that the magical restriction > of underage wizards is, indeed, a crock - something that a DE set up to > scare Harry into not using Magic outside of Hogwarts. I'm not sure who came > up with the theory - i simply remember it being mentioned a few weeks back, > and it made perfect sense to me. > I don't think they had Death Eaters in 1875, which is when the reasonable restriction of magic by underage wizards was adopted. (Source; Mafalda Hopkirk's warning letter.) Unless Voldemort took over a pre-existing organization and put his own stamp on it. What's more, I think that the reasonable restrictions are not that an underage wizard cannot use magic at all under any circumstances, but that he *ought* not use it if he can help it, and that he *cannot* use it without supervision and *cannot* use it around Muggles. But that the MoM only gets into the act if a complaint is registered, and Dobby registered a complaint as soon as he vanished. It wasn't until the following summer that the Ministry started actually monitoring the site and caught the Aunt Marge incident. (I think someone may have made some discreet mention of the Dursley's reaction to the hover charm and the monitoring was set up to both catch other outbreaks and to minimise the damage.) The site is unlikely to have been being monitored earlier than PoA or something would have been done about some of Harry's other spectacular "breakthroughs". The regulation has been on the books for over a century, but everyone knows about it and those who want to can abuse it. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Tue May 6 01:30:50 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:30:50 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57094 Heidi wrote: > Also, Darren keeps accusing the Slytherins of cheating in Quidditch. > > I have to say, I have no idea what he's going on about. > > There are hundreds of ways to foul in Quidditch, but - perhaps someone more familiar with basketball or soccer can explain - if you foul someone, is that a cheat? Or does it - presuming fair refs - just lead to the other side getting a penalty shot? > > I reread the G vs S match in CoS right now, and I don't see one act that could be deemed a "cheat" by the Slytherin team. Linda(Me): FIrst let me say that IMO, a foul in any sport that is maliciosly done, with the purpose of giving yourself a better chance toward victory, even though the offender knows better constitutes cheating. That said... The focus in the G vs S quidditch match in COS is mainly on Harry and the rogue bludger, we really don't see that much else of the game so I don't think we can really draw any conclusions from that particular match. The quddith cup championship in PoA is another story. We have a pretty good overview of most of the action, and cheating (by the definition I gave above) abounds. Examples: 1. Flint deliberately collides with Angelina after she makes the first score. 2. Flint swerves in front of Katie and grabs her head as she aproaches the goal. 3.Bole hits Alicia in the head with his club and tries to say he thought she was a bludger. 4. Bole and Derrick hit Wood in the stomach with both bludgers. 5. Malfoy grabs Harry's broom from behind to keep him from the snitch. Only the first and third fouls netted retaliation from the Gryffindor team (both times by one of the Weasley twins). Both incidents of retaliation were actions of frustration that were not aimed at affecting the play of the game. In fact, if Wood hadn't made a couple of spectacular saves, Slytherin could have had an extra twenty points because of them. Linda- who's friends think she is weird because she is perfectly happy watching sports with her husband on the weekends and who's husband says that's why he married her. From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Tue May 6 01:58:29 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] LV's mudblood ancestry In-Reply-To: <20030506000034.29818.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506015829.70741.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57095 --- waters_law wrote: < > Hi Everyone, I'm new to the Group {{waves}} and really glad to have joined. That said, forgive me if the following has already been addressed, but I would be very interested to learn your thoughts. The motivation of Tom Riddle/Voldemort is something that intrigues me as well. But I am having a really hard time with that of Lucius Malfoy and the other Death Eaters: if Mudbloods (and all those they consider inferior to them) are so repulsive to them, then why are they devoted to someone with this background? I was thinking that maybe they are just not aware that LV is/was really Tom Riddle, son of a Muggle, but surely Lucius knew because he had Tom's diary in his possession in CoS. And I wish I could find the reference in the canon (sorry) but I recall reading that some of Tom Riddle's friends started calling him "Lord Voldemort" while he was still a student at Hogwarts - surely his fellow students would have known his background, that when not in school he had to stay at a Muggle orphanage? As to Hitler's and Manson's heritage, I agree (though the details I read are much more sordid than what was written above!) that it must have motivated them to "obliterate a part of themselves," but their followers -- the other Nazis and The Family, respectively -- didn't know anything about their "family secrets," did they? Odile who digs Ickle Drackykins, even though he is an insufferable git ^_^ From amani at charter.net Tue May 6 02:31:26 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 22:31:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) References: Message-ID: <004701c31377$97d10600$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57096 Darren wrote: **other than > Snape's conversion to Dumbledore's side, we have no concrete examples > of a Slytherin doing anything decent** Heidi: Also, Darren keeps accusing the Slytherins of cheating in Quidditch. I have to say, I have no idea what he's going on about. There are hundreds of ways to foul in Quidditch, but - perhaps someone more familiar with basketball or soccer can explain - if you foul someone, is that a cheat? Or does it - presuming fair refs - just lead to the other side getting a penalty shot? I reread the G vs S match in CoS right now, and I don't see one act that could be deemed a "cheat" by the Slytherin team. I guess that draco, crabbe, Goyle and Marcus's actions in PoA with the dementor garb could be deemed a cheat, but they weren't playing, only 2 of the people involved were on the team, and none of their other housemates or even teammates were involved. Me: I'm agreeing with Heidi here. Yes, they have fouled. Rather brutally, at times. But sometimes fouling is necessary to a game. Especially in such cases with the Seeker, who can /end/ the game. If the Seeker of the opposing team is about to catch the snitch, the smartest thing to do is to /foul/ the Seeker. Sure, the other team will get a penalty shot. But you'll still be in the game. I'm hardly an athlete, but I've played basketball and I've had times when the coach has told me to just /foul/ someone, because we can't afford to have them make a shot. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Tue May 6 02:37:44 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 22:37:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) References: <20030506013920.58102.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005e01c31378$79c59120$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57097 --- Heidi wrote: > Also, Darren keeps accusing the Slytherins of > cheating in Quidditch. > > There are hundreds of ways to foul in > Quidditch, but - perhaps someone more familiar > with basketball or soccer can explain - if you > foul someone, is that a cheat? Or does it - > presuming fair refs - just lead to the other > side getting a penalty shot? Lynn: That depends on how you look at the foul. To me, if you're just trying to stop someone from scoring, that's a foul. When you try to stop them from scoring by deliberately injuring them to take them out of the game, that's cheating. Also, if you deliberately try to injure someone who isn't in a scoring position, that's cheating. Penalty shots don't matter if the other team purposely injures a key player, and in Quidditch they are all key. They then have an unfair advantage in the game that penalty shots will never make up. In basketball and soccer when a player deliberatly fouls someone with intent to injure, they are thrown out of the game. In ice hockey, their team is penalized by that player having to sit out a specified period of time and the injured team gets a definite advantage. In addition, many times the league will penalize the player and/or the team by fines or making the offending player sit out a specified period of games. Of course, in my opinion, it should be even harsher. If someone on a team deliberately fouls with intent to injure and does injure, the team of the offender should lose a player of equal importance to the team for the amount of time the injured player is lost to their team. In this game, if players could be sent off as they are in basketball or soccer when they foul with the intent to injure, Slytherin would have been left with the Keeper, one Chaser and their Seeker. In my opinion, based on this game, Slytherin cheats. Me: Okay, I'm going to take back a little of what I said in my last post about fouling, in which I said fouling is sometimes necessary. Yup, it is, and sometimes people get hurt, but I'm pretty tired and not remembering Slytherin tactics all that well. They're just downright dirty. However, against Heidi's definition, couldn't the Slytherin crew coming out as the Dementors be considered cheating? They're not even in the game and they were purposely trying to interfere in a way they knew would harm the Seeker. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 6 02:39:06 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 02:39:06 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <004701c31377$97d10600$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57098 Taryn: > I'm agreeing with Heidi here. Yes, they have fouled. Rather brutally, at times. But sometimes fouling is necessary to a game. Especially in such cases with the Seeker, who can /end/ the game. If the Seeker of the opposing team is about to catch the snitch, the smartest thing to do is to /foul/ the Seeker. Sure, the other team will get a penalty shot. But you'll still be in the game. I'm hardly an athlete, but I've played basketball and I've had times when the coach has told me to just /foul/ someone, because we can't afford to have them make a shot. > > --Taryn Tell me, when the coach asked you to foul, did you just wrap the person up to get the foul called or did you hit the person over the head and then try to tell the ref you thought the player's head was the ball? My guess is the first, since basketball has the technical foul rule, so if you get too out-of-hand, you won't get the ball back. Or, if you found out a player had an unnatural fear of say, spiders, did you dress up like a spider and go to the sideline of a game you weren't involved in and tried to get that player to miss a shot, or slip and fall on the court? Those are two differences right there. Darrin -- Really wishes they'd change the rules in basketball so it's not good strategy to foul at the end of the game. From heidit at netbox.com Tue May 6 02:42:45 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506024245.75042.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57099 --- darrin_burnett wrote: > > Tell me, when the coach asked you to foul, did you > just wrap the > person up to get the foul called or did you hit the > person over the > head and then try to tell the ref you thought the > player's head was > the ball? My guess is the first, since basketball > has the technical > foul rule, so if you get too out-of-hand, you won't > get the ball back. > You're applying Muggle "rules" and concepts of injury to the wizarding world, which is a little unfair to do, as they clearly don't and can't see injuries to things like arms in the same way we do. I mean, if you knew that breaking someone's arm would result in a few unplesant minutes with some medicine, would you have as much of a compunction against breaking it, or would it be considered, in your world, to be closer to the equal of a bruise? ===== heidi tandy They say its a sign of mental health to hold apparently contradictory ideas in your mind. The world of late has been a particularly exotic stew of horror and beauty. There are killers, there are saints. The trick is to find the right spot on the spectrum between abject despair and total obliviousness. And then carry on... Joel Achenbach From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 03:04:46 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They we're all bent In-Reply-To: <1052174860.3619.33871.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030506030446.55461.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57100 Cindy wrote: > 3. Harry. Sorry. No crushing on underage boys allowed.> Jenny wrote: > Hey! Why not? It's not like I'd want to jump Harry's bones if he was > a real kid in my class. The fourteen year old girl in me, though, has > a wild crush on him. If I was a young witch at Hogwarts, I'd gaze > longingly at Harry as he struggled through his Potions Class, > gracefully caught the Snitch during Quidditch games, and laughed with > Ron at meals. His dark hair, bright green eyes, glasses... forget it! > He is exactly the type of boy I fell for when I was that age (and I > remember all of my crushes - unrequited, of course). The fact that he > has no parents and could use some good lovin' from a nice girl would > make my fourteen year old heart yearn to have him all for myself. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who knows I'm not the only one who thinks > this, but what the hell; I'll be the one to admit it > ************************************************************* Jenny, you are not alone! My fourteen-year-old self is right there with yours, I can guarantee you that, ogling poor Harry and wishing she could make all his hurts go away. :-) Then again, there's always the Age Potion angle . . . . ******************************************************************* Jenny and Tammy, you guys aren't alone. Had Harry been in my class back then, I'd be crushing on him big time. He's "tall, dark and handsome" with green eyes. He's a total mystery only because he spends all his time with Ron and Hermione, but he's sweet and social, so people still know who he is. So Harry would be my number 1 in teenager life and Lupin in adult life. =) Greicy, who will join Jenny as she sits watching Harry across the room, boy unrequited crush sucks...lol --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 03:25:06 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call us "bent". In-Reply-To: <1052174860.3619.33871.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030506032506.7868.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57101 Darrin wrote: >* Hermione - Smart is waayyyyyy sexy. Ersatz Harry wrote:>But I have to confess that, when I started >reading the books, one other female character *distinctly* reminded me >of someone I *did* have a crush on at that age, and that character is, >of course, Hermione, despite (or perhaps because of) her being an >insufferable know-it-all. I expect she will grow more appealing as >the books progress. I'd just like to say, sorry for interrupting testosterone here, that I'm happy that Hermione is your top choice because she is my favorite character and I could only hope Harry will see what you guys see. Greicy, going back to lurking --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 6 03:33:28 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:33:28 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <20030506024245.75042.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heidi tandy wrote: > > --- darrin_burnett wrote: > > > > Tell me, when the coach asked you to foul, did you > > just wrap the > > person up to get the foul called or did you hit the > > person over the > > head and then try to tell the ref you thought the > > player's head was > > the ball? My guess is the first, since basketball > > has the technical > > foul rule, so if you get too out-of-hand, you won't > > get the ball back. > > > > You're applying Muggle "rules" and concepts of injury > to the wizarding world, which is a little unfair to > do, as they clearly don't and can't see injuries to > things like arms in the same way we do. I mean, if you > knew that breaking someone's arm would result in a few > unplesant minutes with some medicine, would you have > as much of a compunction against breaking it, or would > it be considered, in your world, to be closer to the > equal of a bruise? > I was responding to a post about basketball, by the way. So, the introduction of Muggle rules is hardly mine. I was responding to it. And although a broken arm is easier to heal, it still hurts, doesn't it? There is no evidence that it hurts only as much as a bruise does. Harry really is in severe pain when he gets his arm broken, as is Ron when he breaks his leg, so I find the idea of "well, he can get it healed quickly, so let's beat the crap out of him" a bit loathsome. Assault is assault, whether the person heals quickly or not. So, yeah, I'd have some compunction about inflicting a painful injury on someone. And anyway, Harry fell off his broom, from a height of 50 feet, the first time the Dementors made their appearance. Dumbledore kept him from hitting the ground. Notwithstanding Neville's bouncing, Dumbledore obviously felt he needed to save Harry from something. Malfoy and his crew, including a seventh year who damn well ought to know better, were clearly trying to replicate that "happy" event. Darrin -- Bet Harry was just a mean old bully for siccing a Patronus on poor old ickle Drackykins From jmmears at comcast.net Tue May 6 03:40:52 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:40:52 -0000 Subject: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die? Fine, Then! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57103 > > Cindy wrote: > > Be that > > > as it may, I'm willing to get rid of Hagrid if you guys > absolutely > > > insist. > > > > The problem, though, is the thorny question of the means of > > > Hagrid's demise. > > > > > > So forget *whether* Hagrid will die. Let's jump right to *how* > > > Hagrid will die, shall we? The possibilities: > > > > boring AK, Lethifold, and finally Murdered-by-Mummy/ghost > Hagrid> I wrote: > > No, I want him to go out with the most shocking, most angsty, > most horribly Bangy Bang of all .... I want him to die at the hands > > of ::gasp:: the good guys.<< Pippin replied: > That's pretty good, but I've got a better one, IMNSHO. What if > Hagrid dies at the firebreathing jaws of Norbert? Maximum > Harry angst! If only he hadn't broken the rules to save Norbert, > Hagrid might still be alive... OOOOH, I like that one. Dragon-death could be nice and gruesome, yet rather poetic given Hagrid's passion for them. Another possibility that occurs to me is that he & Mme. Maxime manage to persuade the giants to come back to Britain and all will be forgiven. Fudge freaks out, orders his aurors to attack them over Dumbledore's objections, and Hagrid is killed trying to protect Mummy. He could even die in Olympe's arms. Of course, this lacks the Harry Bang/angst (Bangst?) I find necessary to make Hagrid's death worthwhile, so it's pretty far down the list of my favorite theory So many Hagrid deaths to choose from ... I can't wait to see which one JKR has chosen. Jo Serenadust, who actually loves Hagrid but never realised how much fun he is to bump off From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Tue May 6 02:56:47 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 02:56:47 -0000 Subject: Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <20030506024245.75042.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heidi tandy wrote: > > --- darrin_burnett wrote: > > > > Tell me, when the coach asked you to foul, did you > > just wrap the > > person up to get the foul called or did you hit the > > person over the > > head and then try to tell the ref you thought the > > player's head was > > the ball? My guess is the first, since basketball > > has the technical > > foul rule, so if you get too out-of-hand, you won't > > get the ball back. Heidi replied: > You're applying Muggle "rules" and concepts of injury > to the wizarding world, which is a little unfair to > do, as they clearly don't and can't see injuries to > things like arms in the same way we do. I mean, if you > knew that breaking someone's arm would result in a few > unplesant minutes with some medicine, would you have > as much of a compunction against breaking it, or would > it be considered, in your world, to be closer to the > equal of a bruise? Me(Linda): I havn't played many sports in my time. ( I was always on the sidelines, playing in the pep band.) But it seems to me that intent to injure is intent to injure, no matter how serious or not the injury may be. There is just something inherantly wrong in the intent. As comparison, let's look at Oliver Wood. He was, especially in PoA, obsessed with winning the quiditch cup. He even told Harry to "catch the snitch or die trying". But. Wood would never even consider any of the tactics that the Slytherin's used in the championship match. No matter how much he wanted that cup, he wanted it fair and square. That makes all the difference. - Linda From errolowl at yahoo.com Tue May 6 03:53:53 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:53:53 -0000 Subject: Crushes on female characters (Was: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57105 On the strange bent tastes of people I wrote: >>2. Mrs Lestrange: Right, she's got less canon that even Avery. But she does make an impact and I'm surprised no one else brought her up. Dangerous, that's the word. It would take quite a man to keep pace with her. Vicious. Wild. Fiery. Regal. Tempestuous. Temptress...but ice cold deep down. The ice princess with a twist....<< Darrin backed off: >>Wha? I don't know. I have lived through my wild stage where I dated women who were just as likely to plunge a knife in my back (or use it in other places.) Lived through it. If Narcissa turns out to be a DE, then she falls on my list. Besides, we're MEN! We need to know what Mrs. Lestrange looks like!<< Oh, don't mind me Darrin, I'm just taking my imagination out for a little stroll. The dangerous type does have more that its fair share of fantasy appeal. And then there's the description: "A woman with thick shining dark hair, and heavily hooded eyes, who was sitting in the chained chair as though it were a throne" There's regal for you! And the fact that Harry notices her "shining" dark hair even in the midst of a gloomy trial says something to me about her grooming and attractiveness. Add her passionate nature to the mix and its irresistible. Of course, a crush on this package comes with the rider that she finds you attractive and interesting enough to stab the DE's in the back and come with you. But you'll never be sure of the safety of your own back . Her being a DE would be a major turn off in RL, but in a fictional character it just adds glamour. Nothing staid or predictable, and it requires the man to keep atleast one step ahead of her ? and that's quite a challenge! Wouldn't we all like to be the only man who can command the respect of a dangerous and highly intelligent woman? The only one able to penetrate the mystery of those hooded eyes... See it yet? That said, the closest to life crush would probably be Angelina. But then, I dont crush all that much, the evidience of the last couple of posts to the contrary ;-) Darrin, about Cho: >>The scene where Harry finally works up the courage to ask her out is the one that really got me from junior high school, ESPECIALLY when she really seemed to be sorry he hadn't asked her before Cedric did. (Or, she just was letting the kid down easy, because Cedric was her dream date all along.) Man, how many of us were just a little late in finally getting the guts to ask the girl?<< All of us apparently! And no, most of them were not very gentle are they? Makes me wonder how I survived... Yeah, I really liked Cho for that, but somehow it took the final GoF scene to push it from "like" to possible "crush". It might have just been my overly developed sense of respecting Cerdic's boundaries,LOL. And then there's Pansy. I wrote: 9. Pansy: Some Neanderthal reaction I guess. A simpering female who > fawns over you, is anxious when you're wounded, jumps to your > defense, never steals your limelight and is of course very > pretty. If Draco sees something in her, who am I to argue? Darrin Warns: >>Yeah, but only if your dad is rich and you are pureblood for like two millenia. Wayyyy too high-maintenance, man. Remember her reaction to the gold unicorn? She only dates guys six figures and above, my friend.<< Point taken, and I'm not heartbroken. She's a snob, pure and simple. But it *was* a Neanderthal reaction to a simpering female. ;-) > Pomfry, Sprout, and (gasp) Trelawney ? you got to be kidding! >In order. Too grandmother. Too aunt. Too crazy aunt locked up in the >attic. > Molly? That would be practically incestuous. > True, but I bet she was a hottie, back in the day. Which has me wondering. If the "Aunt", the "mother", the "grandmother" etc are negative stereotypes while evaluating potential crushes ... how come the ladies don't feel Lupin is too fatherly, or Harry too brotherly, or Moody too "eccentric uncle in the attic"? ladies? >Darrin >-- Ickle Drackykins. I'm copyrighting that as a band name OUCH!! Errol Who's quite sure McNair will be added to the ladies list now that they have been reminded. From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue May 6 03:58:18 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:58:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They we're all bent In-Reply-To: <20030506030446.55461.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030506030446.55461.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53100459504.20030505205818@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57106 Hi, Monday, May 05, 2003, 8:04:46 PM, Greicy wrote: > He's "tall, dark and > handsome" with green eyes. Is he, really ;) I always thought he was reminiscent of the skinny, little bespectacled boys who had such a hard time in school, usually. Being teased and bullied and made fun of. The exact opposite of the "tall, dark (or blond) and handsome" boys who got all the attention. Harry has something going for him that makes people take notice, though. He's the boy who lived! But I'm not sure if his looks would get him much attention, otherwise. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue May 6 04:33:38 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:33:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville/Memory Charms References: Message-ID: <004801c31388$aa5b5c60$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57107 Oooh! Not just one, but two of my favorite topics rolled into one! > Kelly wrote: > > >Here's a scenario. He's home at that time and hears (and perhaps > > sees) everything. > And Cindy responded: > But . . . but why would MoM care about little Neville and his > pathetic little nightmares. The Longbottoms' attack caused a "wave > of fury." There was "great pressure" to catch the culprits. So why > would MoM mess around with some tyke's memory when there are wicked > DEs who will stop at nothing, still running around loose. > Why, because they have something to hide! Cindy continued: > > They put a *Reverse Memory Charm* on Neville! This helps him finger > the Pensieve Four, although he would otherwise be too young! Nope! But Kelly's half-right. I agree that Neville's suffering from a super-strong Memory Charm, but there was nothing benevolent about it. Neville saw *way* too much, might even have been tortured himself, and someone didn't want him talking about it. Ever. And the Pensieve Four are just four folks in a large crowd of suspects awaiting questioning, which includes various and sundry MOM employees (disgruntled and otherwise), and even Neville's own relatives, like Gran, maybe, or Neville's own parents. Because maybe Frank did crack and it was imperative that nobody learn about it. (Hey, maybe Gran's responsible for everyone's amnesia!) Sure, they're gruesome theories. But that's how I earned my FEATHERBOA, which I still wear proudly. Jaimee theorized that Neville was not at home when Frank's torturers struck: > So probably a great clue as to whether or not Neville was home during > his parent's attack is to pay attention to how he reacted to the > dementors on the train--Ch. 5 PoA Hardback US edition... > > OK. Soon after Harry comes to when the dementor is sent away, "Harry > looked around the bright compartment. Ginny and Neville looked back > at him, both very pale." [snip] > > Continuing on...later texts Neville comments on the Dementors. He > says, "It was horrible...did you feel how cold it got when they came > in." Neville makes no mention to hearing or remember anything unhappy > from his past. [snip] > > So...my guess would be that Neville WAS NOT home when his parents > were tortured. If he were, he would've felt as much of the dementors > effect as Harry. Probably what made him look so "pale" is visiting > his parent in St. Mungos, seeing the state they're in, and knowing > what put them there. > I suppose it *could* mean that Neville wasn't home. But that doesn't explain Neville's general behavior. A better explanation, IMO, is that he has memories of torture buried underneath that Memory Charm but like so much else inside his brain, he can't retrieve them. Why else put him into that scene? Neville wasn't sitting in the compartment with the Trio. He and Ginny arrived just in time for the Dementor's arrival. I think Neville was included in that scene solely for the purpose of telling us that the Dementors can't break through the shield on Neville's memories -- after all, it seems rather pointless to put him in the scene just so we could learn he was out for the evening with Gran. Where's the Bang in that? > Laura observed, regarding the effect of the Memory Charm on Lockhart: I always found it interesting that once he'd forgotten > that he was supposedly this big, famous and handsome wizard, Lockhart > turned out to actually be a modest, humble, decent guy. (IMHO) He > says something along the lines of "I suspect I was horrible!" when he > is informed that he's actually a teacher. Apparently he was a nice > guy underneath it all who was just horribly corrupted by fame > inflating his big head. JKR really was thorough on that lesson. =) Very interesting observation, though I don't quite agree with the conclusion. As Kelly suggested, Memory Charms seem to work on the brain in some fashion. I don't know if Lockhart was really a nice guy once all the self-promotion was stripped away; I think it's more likely that the Memory Charm altered his personality by stripping out the braggadocio and leaving in its place a half-empty shell. We have real-life examples (which I know only anecdotally) of people who suffer brain injuries that alter the victims' personalities, often making the victims very difficult to deal with. Perhaps a Memory Charm does the reverse -- it makes their personalities more bland and accepting, because they cannot pull together and process information sufficiently well to find the talents that are hidden within. That seems to explain Neville rather well. He, like Lockhart after his mishap, seems to assume that he has no talent, even though his magical ability shows from time to time in ruined cauldrons and other mishaps. > backstagemagic (BM) wrote, about Frank Longbottom: > Also, as revealed by Sirius to Harry (GoF, "Padfoot Returns" > chapter), we get a clear picture of Crouch Sr's impunity as Head of > the Department of Magical Law Enforcement: > > "The Aurors were given new powers - powers to kill rather than > capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed > straight to the dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with > violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against > suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the > Dark Side." [snip] > > Whether or not Frank Longbottom himself was guilty of such is unknown > to us, . . . > But for Frank to be guilty of the kind of abuse of power that Sirius speaks of raises very interesting possibilities for Neville's development, in light of the incongruity between what the real Frank Longbottom would have been like and the image of the martyr that Neville has grown up with. In fact, I think there is a gold mine of Bangy secrets from the first Voldemort era in the family background of many, if not all, of the major child characters -- that will be revealed in the coming books. And that one of the character development issues will revolve around how these characters cope with those revelations. As Jaimee pointed out, Harry has been steadily increasing his ability to retrieve critical early memories, and Dumbledore has been slowly increasing Harry's store of background information (Snape's been helping, too, but in a more negative way). In GoF, Ron asked for on several occasions -- and was given -- more information about the Voldemort era, which will help him when the Weasley family secrets (think age gap and susceptibility to Imperius) are revealed. All of these tidbits of information will help them when big revelations are made. Unlike Harry and Ron, Neville has neither friends and relatives who are willing to tell him the truth bit by bit nor does he have the capability of retrieving his own memories as Harry does. Instead, Gran is perpetuating a certain image of Frank that may not hold up to investigation. We are told that Gran takes Neville to visit them during the holidays. That's a bit like taking a child to a holy shrine to see the holy relics. Gran harps regularly to Neville about how he should be upholding the family honor. But none of this introduces Neville to the real Frank & Mrs. Longbottom; they are lost and have been replaced with the larger-than-life Martyred Auror. Fortunately for Gran, nobody wants to talk about the uglier aspects of the Voldemort era. Unfortunately, now that Voldemort has returned it has become imperative that everyone learn the truth, so Neville, unlike Harry and his friends, faces the prospect of learning the truth about Frank in such a way that he is unable to cope with it. Tom Wall offered: > So, what gets me most about these is that, as each book progresses, > we have more and more references to the Memory Charms, and we learn > more and more about what they do, how they're cast, and what can go > wrong with them. It seems to me to be an ominous case of > foreshadowing, and I'm dreading with certainty the page in a future > book when one of these spells is cast on a character we know and care > about - who could cast the charm and why, what would our character > feel like, and what could possibly be the results? Could this person > be damaged permanently? Shuddering at the thought... > I think enough characters have already has been damaged. Can Neville recover? I don't think so. The example of Bertha Jorkins suggests that Neville has little prospect of recovery. Breaking a Memory Charm seems to involve even more brain damage than casting the charm does. Moreover, notwithstanding that the elder Longbottoms are still alive, I'm not expecting them to somehow recover their memories, because I see Frank & Mrs. Longbottom's condition -- dead to Neville and yet not dead -- as a companion image to Neville's condition. Both represent a past that has been irretrievably lost. Then again, I think Neville's parents are suffering from Memory Charms, too. Debbie A summary of the major Memory Charm theories, as well as the meaning of FEATHERBOAS, can be found at Hypothetic Alley: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Tue May 6 06:15:08 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No magic outside school In-Reply-To: <007701c31333$b32b3900$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <20030506061508.81614.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57108 Diane: > Sorry if this has already been > discussed...Petunia Dursley grew up > with Lily, and presumably knew that > she wasn't allowed to do magic > outside of school. (Although I'm > sure Lily was very clever, I doubt > she could keep the secret for seven > years.) Why did Petunia never share > this information with Vernon or > Dudley? Katy Cartee: > Well, this is just further proof > of the theory that the magical > restriction of underage wizards is, > indeed, a crock - something that a > DE set up to scare Harry into not > using Magic outside of Hogwarts. > I'm not sure who came up with the > theory - i simply remember it being > mentioned a few weeks back, and it > made perfect sense to me. IIRC, because its enforcement is so spotty, we suspect the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery to be more than just a straightforward restriction imposed by the MoM; Harry got caught but others do not. There are lots of theories out there to explain this, including that this is something that a DE set up to scare Harry into not using Magic outside of Hogwarts, which IIRC explains why only Harry seems to get caught. But I do want to point out that this could well be very straightforward. Kids who violate this restriction but do not get into trouble because no one caught them at it is not that different than people running the stop sign when no one is around to give them a traffic ticket. The only time Harry gets 'caught' happens to be at the same time that Dobby wants him to stay at Privet Drive. It seems very likely to me that Dobby notified MoM in hopes that Harry would not be allowed to go back to Hogwarts. This would explain why we hear of kids daring to practice magic outside of Hogwarts - they probably knew that they could get away with it, as long as they are careful not to do so in front of people who would report them. I had always read this as one of those things about the WW that Harry didn't quite understood, not having grown up in the WW. Now, the MoM obviously also know of the blowing up of Aunt Marge. I had gotten the impression that the MoM arrived to keep an extra eye on Harry on account of Black's escape and not because they were alerted to the fact that Aunt Marge was in need of magical deflation. Harry's right, surely the Head of MoM would not personally get involved in the matter of underage sorcery...but he most certainly may wish to head up the safekeeping of the Boy Who Lived. To answer Diane's question (sort of), I'm not convinced that Petunia knew that Lily wasn't allowed to do magic outside of school. We do know that Petunia knows of Lily doing magic while on vacation - she spoke of Lily turning teacups into rats. The fact that Vernon apparently didn't know about the restriction (or he'd have locked up Harry sooner) may very well support the likelihood that Lily has never been caught, which would be why Petunia never knew about the Decree. Heidi: > We actually don't know if the No > Magic Outside School rule existed X > number of years before, when Lily > was at Hogwarts. If it didn't then > Petunia wouldn't know that it was > forebidden and thus she wouldn't know > to mention it to Vernon or Dudley. ~ ~ ~ Mafalda Hopkirk's letter, in part: As you know, underage wizards are not permitted to perform spells outside school, and further spellwork on your part may lead to expulsion from said school (Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery, 1875, Paragraph C). ~ ~ ~ CoS, Chapter Two I always thought that "1875" referred to the year in which that restriction was decreed. Petra a n :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From LeiaOS at aol.com Tue May 6 05:48:56 2003 From: LeiaOS at aol.com (LeiaOS at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 01:48:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumb... Message-ID: <15f.1fe6e0cd.2be8a6c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57109 In a message dated 5/5/2003 5:49:26 PM Central Standard Time, Ygranependragon at aol.com writes: > I don't like the "either you're with us or against us" argument...it > doesn't leave a place for people who don't agree with either side. > Or people who don't care. If you agree with Voldemort, > you're "bad." If you disagree, you're "good." If you don't agree > with either of them and won't choose a side, are you bad? I don't > think so. > I have to say I have a problem with this. In the case of Draco and Harry, which you were discussing before this statement, I'd say you're absolutely right. The two are rivals at school. While as they mature and make decisions about who they are going to follow, this may change into something far more serious, currently it is just schoolboy squabbles. While not a fabulous thing, it's also not the end of the world and it's also very personal between the two of them and their immediate circle of friends. Many of the children may be only marginally aware that it is going on. However, when it comes to Voldemort, I have to stand up and say I think a stand has to be taken. If you will not choose a side, you are no better off than someone who chooses the evil. That is currently, to a degree, what Fudge is doing right now. He's saying, that can't be, these people were cleared, we're not going to make a big deal about this. Pushing it away, ignoring it because he doesn't want to be involved. When you step into huge moral issues, where one side actively murders, deceives, cheats, etc and enjoys doing so. That side is clearly in the wrong. And if you do not stand against that, then in my mind, you become an accomplice to what that side presents. Now that's all very black and white, and if we go back to Draco and Harry and the rest of the Slytherin House-and indeed, the school as a whole-is what they do now training for what they will choose later? Probably without a doubt. And is Draco in the wrong? Yes. But I'd say there are definately times when Harry has been in the wrong as well, and he certainly doesn't offer a hand of friendship to Draco. So, it's not as black and white or cut and dried as we'd like for it to be. But isn't that life? ~Sabrina~ 'I say to you all, once again- in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.' ~Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Tue May 6 07:08:49 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:08:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crushes on characters (Was: Crushes on female characters) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57110 >From: "errolowl" >Which has me wondering. If the "Aunt", the "mother", >the "grandmother" etc are negative stereotypes while >evaluating potential crushes ... how come the ladies don't feel >Lupin is too fatherly, or Harry too brotherly, or Moody too >"eccentric uncle in the attic"? ladies? > Rosebeth: IMHO, Lupin's "fatherly" concern for Harry is reason to like him more. Being "fatherly" really is just a name for a group of things. He's caring, concerned, guiding. He disciplines Harry. (Can't find the site, but it's after He gets Harry out of Snapes office). Anyway, these are ideal qualities that we look for in men. As for Harry, we all had jr. high and high school crushes. Like others have already said, we remember them so I won't rehash that. Other to say that I also would have had a huge crush on him. The real problem with Harry, is our desire to mother him. At the end of GF when Mollie hugs him and we are reminded that he has had no mother figure to care for him there is a desire to just give him a hug. Okay, I think I've revealed a bit to much of myself. Later all! Rosebeth _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue May 6 07:12:05 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <005e01c31378$79c59120$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <20030506071205.71028.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57111 --- Taryn wrote: > > However, against Heidi's definition, couldn't > the Slytherin crew coming out as the Dementors > be considered cheating? They're not even in the > game and they were purposely trying to > interfere in a way they knew would harm the > Seeker. Lynn: Well, in my opinion it's more stupidity since they don't have a clue as to why Harry is affected, but yes, it would be cheating. Even though they weren't in the game itself, they still had a vested interest in the outcome of the game and an injury to the player could perhaps be severe enough to keep that player out of a game against them, especially since they know the last time Harry fell off his broom. Another example of what I would consider Slytherins cheating is when Harry can't walk to class without Slytherins sticking out their legs trying to trip him. (PoA, p. 222, UK) While it doesn't say which Slytherins, this implies that there are a whole bunch of them doing it. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue May 6 07:26:37 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <20030506024245.75042.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506072637.80778.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57112 --- heidi wrote: > You're applying Muggle "rules" and concepts of > injury > to the wizarding world, which is a little > unfair to > do, as they clearly don't and can't see > injuries to > things like arms in the same way we do. I mean, > if you > knew that breaking someone's arm would result > in a few > unplesant minutes with some medicine, would you > have > as much of a compunction against breaking it, > or would > it be considered, in your world, to be closer > to the > equal of a bruise? Lynn: Oh, I don't know, trying to knock someone off their broom at 30 feet really doesn't sound like it would only result in a "bruise". When Harry fell off his broom during the Hufflepuff game, it wasn't just a few unpleasant minutes with some medicine - he ended up in the hospital and that's with some help to slow him down. So these types of injuries take people totally out of the game, not just for a few minutes. Besides, even in my world, I would consider it cheating to even try to bruise someone. It's wrong to purposely go out and try to hurt someone. Period. Degree of injury isn't a justification. Lynn (who agrees with Darrin regarding basketball and fouls at the end of the game and thinks that could be overcome when the person fouled in the last 2 minutes gets the automatic 2 or 3 points plus foul shots of equal value) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue May 6 07:39:56 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville/Memory Charms In-Reply-To: <004801c31388$aa5b5c60$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030506073956.28454.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57113 --- Debbie wrote: > > A better explanation, IMO, > is that he has memories of torture buried > underneath that Memory Charm but like so much > else inside his brain, he can't retrieve them. > Why else put him into that scene? Neville > wasn't sitting in the compartment with the > Trio. He and Ginny arrived just in time for > the Dementor's arrival. I think Neville was > included in that scene solely for the purpose > of telling us that the Dementors can't break > through the shield on Neville's memories -- > after all, it seems rather pointless to put him > in the scene just so we could learn he was out > for the evening with Gran. Lynn: IMO, Neville was placed in the scene so he could pass on the information of Harry's reaction to the Dementors to Draco and Co. If Neville hadn't told Draco, no one other than the Trio, Ginny and Lupin would have known how Harry was affected until the first Quidditch game and I don't see any of them talking to Draco. It also tells us that Neville is willing to tell Draco things about Harry. I've always found it interesting that Neville would do this. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Tue May 6 08:51:33 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:51:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030505122954.00bce928@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030506034709.02ce0738@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57114 Cindy C. recently mentioned: > > The Brilliant Elkins, in Message Number 39083, wrote rather a nice > > description of the Hurt-Comfort dynamic. (The message is primarily > > about Draco Malfoy, but you'll get the idea.) > > So, Kriselda . . . > > Care to join us? ;-) Thank you for the info - and yeah, I think I'll probably have to. I'm only partway through GoF (I'm kind of a "witchy-come-lately" to the books - didn't discover how good the whole thing is until I saw the first movie on HBO), but I seem to have a Sirius thing going, and am a little bit loopy for Lupin :) ALSO in a later message Tammy Rizzo recently mentioned: > Jenny, you are not alone! My fourteen-year-old self is right there with > yours, I can guarantee you that, ogling poor Harry and wishing she > could make all his hurts go away. :-) > > Then again, there's always the Age Potion angle . . . . Hey, good thinking there, Tammy! If my inner teen was going to go after any of the boys, it would have to be Ron. I mean, my "normal" self would just love to "mother" him (in an age appropriate way, of course) a bit. Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue May 6 11:43:54 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 11:43:54 -0000 Subject: Crushes on female characters (Was: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57115 Errol wrote: > > Pomfry, Sprout, and (gasp) Trelawney ? you got to be kidding! > >In order. Too grandmother. Too aunt. Too crazy aunt locked up in the > >attic. > > Molly? That would be practically incestuous. > > True, but I bet she was a hottie, back in the day. > > Which has me wondering. If the "Aunt", the "mother", > the "grandmother" etc are negative stereotypes while > evaluating potential crushes ... how come the ladies don't feel > Lupin is too fatherly, or Harry too brotherly, or Moody too > "eccentric uncle in the attic"? ladies? Oh, Errol. You don't really need an answer to that question, do you? It's= not women who crush on older men who have a problem, it's the men who don't crush on olde= r women. Women get old, men get distinguished. Older men are sexy, older women are = not. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. Also, as was frequently pointed out during the "Snape is/is not sexy" debat= e, being sexy is a function of how powerful you are. Almost all of the older men in the = Potterverse are powerful, and relatively few of the older women are. Which is why Mrs. Les= trange, for example, whose age is never given, but who is certainly within Snape's age = group and therefore not in the first bloom of youth, is still sexy - she has power. Abigail From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 6 12:02:56 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 12:02:56 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030506034709.02ce0738@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57116 Tammy: > > Jenny, you are not alone! My fourteen-year-old self is right there with > > yours, I can guarantee you that, ogling poor Harry and wishing she > > could make all his hurts go away. :-) > > > > Then again, there's always the Age Potion angle . . . . > > Hey, good thinking there, Tammy! Kriselda: > > If my inner teen was going to go after any of the boys, it would have to be > Ron. I mean, my "normal" self would just love to "mother" him (in an age > appropriate way, of course) a bit. > And Darrin, foolishly inserting himself into this again: Don't you ladies have any survival instincts? Harry's a nice kid and all, but he's also marked for death by the most evil wizard anyone can remember. Here's how a guy, IF he were being honest with himself and hadn't just finished watching the Terminator or Rocky, would react to a Harriet Potter, with the same problems. Harriet: Yes, I've got Voldemort going after me. He's also targeted my best friend, Veronica and my other best friend, Herman. Honest guy: So, he'd also likely target anyone you started dating? Harriet: Uh-huh Honest guy: Well, good luck with that. And, uh, do you know if Lavender is seeing anyone? Darrin -- I'm giving away all the secrets. The guys are going to KILL me. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue May 6 12:03:20 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 12:03:20 -0000 Subject: Quidditch cheating (was Slytherin's behavior) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57117 Heidi wrote: > There are hundreds of ways to foul in Quidditch, but - perhaps someone more familiar with basketball or soccer can explain - if you foul someone, is that a cheat? Or does it - presuming fair refs - just lead to the other side getting a penalty shot? > > I reread the G vs S match in CoS right now, and I don't see one act that could be deemed a "cheat" by the Slytherin team. This is surely a matter of semantics: whether you regard the professional foul as cheating or not. A professional foul is one designed to bring about an advantage for your side even though a pubishment/penalty is almost inevitable: for example injuring the opposing side's star player. For example, take the time Draco grabs harry's broom, preventing him from getting the Snitch. This can be viewed in two ways: 1) a calculation of benefit (averting the immediate end and loss of the game) against cost (a penalty which is an almost certain 10 points to the other side) 2) a breach of the rules of the game which should be punished. The reaction of people, such as McGonagall, suggests that in WW culture, the second view is taken. IOW, Draco isn't playing Quidditch in the way that wizards would understand it should be played: he's cheating. It can be argued that the rules of any sport should be set up to ensure that it doesn't matter whether you take view 1 or 2. In this case, that means that the penalties are not severe enough. This is admitted in the text, IIRC, in connection with Dean's suggestion that badly behaved team members should be dismissed (though I may be conflating different games here), something not allowed under the current rules. It can also be argued that the difference between 1 and 2 above is precisely what the difference between Slytherin and Gryffindor is about. I am assuming that, although McGonagall is undoubtedly partisan, the strength of her reaction reflects something more than partisanship. David From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Tue May 6 12:01:39 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 05:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <20030506072637.80778.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506120139.64006.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57118 --- Ladi lyndi wrote: > Besides, even in my world, I would consider it > cheating to even try to bruise someone. It's > wrong to purposely go out and try to hurt > someone. Period. Degree of injury isn't a > justification. True, it's certainly not sporting to go out of one's way to hurt someone, but I think of Quidditch as being more akin to hockey than basketball. (Maybe it's the Quebecoise in me!) I was right behind the Boston Bruins' bench for the first hockey game I ever went to: man, those guys pounded eachother! *SPLAT!!* And if they get in a fight, do they get kicked out of the game? Nope. A sit in the penalty box is all. Whoop-dee-doo. As in hockey, so in Quidditch, IMO. Then again, "checking" is part of the game; Harry is a target, but not just because he is Seeker. The Slytherin team happens to know his vulnerabilities and exploits them. Granted, it also makes me think of professional athletes who have to put up with being heckled by the crowd - either they tune it out and focus on the game or they go mad. (Although I have yet to see how Derek Jeter would handle a Dementor...) Odile, who has to get to work, and really hopes this makes sense ===== Best regards, Odile Falaise Kyklos Ton Asterion From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue May 6 12:54:20 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 05:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's behavior at the GoF final feast (was Re: Dumbledore's awarding of points PS/SS) In-Reply-To: <20030506120139.64006.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506125420.98255.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57119 --- Odile wrote: > True, it's certainly not sporting to go out of > one's > way to hurt someone, but I think of Quidditch > as being > more akin to hockey than basketball. And > if they get in a fight, do they get kicked out > of the > game? Nope. A sit in the penalty box is all. > Whoop-dee-doo. As in hockey, so in Quidditch, > IMO. > > Then again, "checking" is part of the game; > Harry is a > target, but not just because he is Seeker. The > Slytherin team happens to know his > vulnerabilities and > exploits them. Lynn: My problem with comparing Quidditch to hockey is first, in hockey the players wear protective gear, like in American football, because physical play is part of the game. In Quidditch, if knocking someone off their broom was an acceptable part of the game, there would be some safety measures in place, at least at the school level. Second, if a penalty is called, there is just one shot to the team who got fouled. In hockey, the penalty period gives the offended team an advantage to score more easily. In Quidditch, it could be a huge advantage. To me Quidditch is more like basketball where good clean defense is part of the game. Beating a Seeker with clubs is not 'checking' and yet that was what Slytherin beaters were attempting to do. I think a better way to see if there is cheating or not is to look at the non-Slytherin games. Cho blocks Harry as he's going for the snitch. Nope, not a foul because that is part of the game, good clean defense. However, she was able to block Harry without the threat of bodily harm. If intentionally injuring other players was an accepted part of the game, you would see it in all the games, not just those with Slytherin. As was pointed out, Wood wanted to win the Cup so bad, the Gryffindor team would definitely have played that type of physical game, particularly against Slytherin. (I think the Weasley twins would have loved it.) That, to me, is a huge indication that such physical play is not an accepted part of the game. And, as to Slytherin exploiting what they see as a vulnerability, e.g. dressing as Dementors, if that was an acceptable part of the game I don't think McGonagall would have taken 50 points from Slytherin and informed the Headmaster of it. It was obviously outside the bounds of the game and that's cheating. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cindysphynx at comcast.net Tue May 6 13:35:31 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:35:31 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57120 Jo wrote (of Pippin's "Norbert Nails Hagrid" scenario): > OOOOH, I like that one. Dragon-death could be nice and gruesome, > yet rather poetic given Hagrid's passion for them. Oh, yes. I must say that is a compelling one. Any demise involving fire is Bangy almost by definition. Fire-breathing is even better! Jo continued: >Of course, this lacks the Harry Bang/angst (Bangst?) Bangst? **Bangst**? I -- I just don't know what to make of this new concept "Bangst." Consider the definition of "Big Bang": >"Indeed, Big Bangers have a rather rigid bright line test to assist >us in determining which theories are acceptable. If we can't >imagine a climactic, Oscar-worthy scene in which a character >chooses a dramatically different path because of a Big Event, then >the theory won't fly under Big Bang." So Big Bang encompasses the idea that JKR prefers the highly dramatic and even melodramatic scene to the more sedate alternatives. But what role does "angst" play in Big Bang? I profess myself confused. "Angst" has Edge, no doubt about it. But can angst be Bangy in the traditional way? I'm not sure. People do a lot of biting their lower lips and weeping when they are suffering overwhelming angst. Weeping does *not* Bang. Punching out a window Bangs. I don't know. Jo may have come across a new way to view and evaluate canon here -- a "Bangst" assessment. Are there true examples of "Bangst" in canon? I dunno . . . Cindy -- muttering to herself as she tries to sort this out From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue May 6 13:45:55 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:45:55 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" > > > > And Darrin, foolishly inserting himself into this again: > > Don't you ladies have any survival instincts? Harry's a nice kid and > all, but he's also marked for death by the most evil wizard anyone > can remember. Sure some of us do...hence the crushing on the tough, gristly guy full of angst who would kill (or if in a lighter mood, crucio) as soon as look at anyone who even thought of giving him a hard time. Okay so he's mopey too. Nobody's perfect. Mel From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 13:46:48 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:46:48 -0000 Subject: Modified JKR Quote? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57122 A colleague sent me a link to the following article: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003202221,00.html I'm not familiar with various British publications, so I'm not sure if the Sun is considered more traditional news source or tabloid (although having since glanced at the sidebar advertising and home page I'm leaning toward the latter...), but the article is interesting anyway. It reports that a couple of pre-release copies of OotP were discovered in a field and the guy who found them turned them in. The key quote, however, comes when the author of the article attempts to familiarize folks with information about the book. "The 37-year-old writer, who lives with her husband and two children in Scotland, also announced: 'There's at least one death that's going to be horrible to write, or rather rewrite.'" Now, I know I've seen the "There's at least one death that's going to be horrible to write" part before. It's led to lots of fun speculation here as to who the goner is in Book 5. But I don't ever recall seeing the last three words before... "...or rather rewrite." REwrite? Admittedly, this could just be based on timing. JKR, the great perfectionist, could have at the time been in the midst of one of her many drafts when the quote was made, so she'd already sketched it out, was dreading adding the detail and emotion we'd all expect, so she said "rewrite" since was mentally preparing herself for that next draft of the scene(s). Or maybe not. Maybe she's already written about this death before but only in passing, so she's REwriting it. Our fear of losing Hagrid, or Dumbledore, or Ron or Hermione can be delayed a few years until Book Six comes out. If she's rewriting a death, and it will be horrible to write, I'm thinking that means she's touched on it before, but because of the story line must now detail it. If I'm on the right track about this (which is open to debate, including by me, especially since I'm not sure of the credibility of the news source), then I think she must be prepared write the details of the Halloween night death of Lily or James, and somehow Harry must see or experience it firsthand. Perhaps this is where the officially released "I'm going to tell you everything" quote comes into play - Harry has a dream and vividly sees what he's only heard before (his mother dying - it seems that James was out-of-range when he died), goes to Dumbledore, who figures its time to 'fess up on Harry's role in the world. Or perhaps it's after that quote, and we learn that Dumbledore was somehow there, saw it all happen, was powerless for some reason to stop it, and has dumped the memory into the Pensieve so that Harry can see it. Thoughts? aja_1991 From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 6 13:24:38 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:24:38 -0000 Subject: The ancient magic of gifts In-Reply-To: <007d01c31355$392834b0$6595253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > Faith: > > I had always assumed they sent him gifts because Dumbledore > went out of the way every year... > > Me (izaskun): > I agree with you... Well, let me toss out another example of magical gifts: "the flesh of the servant, willingly given". I can't imagine that Wormtail really *wanted* to lop off his hand for the sake of Voldemort, but he did do it, and the action seems to be the key, not the intent. Perhaps something analogous applied to the Dursleys' gifts to Harry. Ersatz Harry From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 14:20:26 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:20:26 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They we're all bent In-Reply-To: <53100459504.20030505205818@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57124 Greicy wrote: > > He's "tall, dark and > > handsome" with green eyes. Susan wrote: > Is he, really ;) > > I always thought he was reminiscent of the skinny, little > bespectacled boys who had such a hard time in school, > usually. Being teased and bullied and made fun of. > > The exact opposite of the "tall, dark (or blond) and > handsome" boys who got all the attention. > > Harry has something going for him that makes people take > notice, though. > He's the boy who lived! > > But I'm not sure if his looks would get him much attention, > otherwise. The reason I say he's "tall, dark and handsome" is because I am thinking of him after growth spurt. He has to grow sometime, doesn't he...lol. I can't picture harry being bullied around not even when he was bullied by Dudley and his stupid friends. It's just not the Hogwarts!Harry that I know, so I can't picture it. In Hogwarts, he stands up and talks back, when in Muggle World, he just ran away. Making Hogwarts!Harry sexxxxaaaayyy! ;) Greicy, who can't believe she just called a soon to be 15 year old sexy From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 6 14:26:14 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:26:14 -0000 Subject: Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > Bangst? **Bangst**? > > I -- I just don't know what to make of this new concept "Bangst." > Consider the definition of "Big Bang": > > >"Indeed, Big Bangers have a rather rigid bright line test to assist us in determining which theories are acceptable. If we can't imagine a climactic, Oscar-worthy scene in which a character chooses a dramatically different path because of a Big Event, then the theory won't fly under Big Bang." << > > So Big Bang encompasses the idea that JKR prefers the highly > dramatic and even melodramatic scene to the more sedate alternatives. > > But what role does "angst" play in Big Bang? > I don't know. Jo may have come across a new way to view and > evaluate canon here -- a "Bangst" assessment. Are there true > examples of "Bangst" in canon? I dunno . . . Ohhhh, JKR *loves* bangst. Examples: Seeing Voldemort kill the spare right in front of you --Bang! Thinking it was your fault because you made him take the cup with you--Angst! You find out your pal is a traitor when you discover the murdered bodies of your best friend and his wife -- Bang! You realize he couldn't have done it if it weren't for your clever idea --Angst! Other examples, anyone? Pippin From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 14:30:48 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:30:48 -0000 Subject: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57126 Okay, I know this may have been discussed before, but why would Harry be worried about Ron as a Keeper for the team? Wouldn't Harry be happy for Ron? Not only is he his bestfriend, but he would also his team-mate. I cannot think of anything that would cause Harry to be worried about Ron. Do you have any clues, b/c I truly doubt. It's too early in the morning for me to think. Perhaps a confrontation over ideas and Harry is worried that Ron will think he's trying to be in the limelight or something. I don't know, help me out. Greicy From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 6 14:27:10 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:27:10 -0000 Subject: Wand Contents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57127 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Ersatz wrote: > > > > Ooh, I forgot about her. Shall we have a duel for her hand, then? > > > > What's in your wand? Given that I am a mere Ersatz Harry, I guess I'd have to say that my wand is a pipe cleaner encased in plastic. A bit springy, nice wand for mild deception, so long as it's in good fun. I was a little short on cash and bought it from the Weasley twins. You don't suppose it's one of those trick ones, do you? So far, at least, it has not turned into fish or fowl. But I cough up a couple of canary feathers every time I use it. On a less silly topic, does it not seem possible that the title Order of the Phoenix refers to a group of wizards who are given new wands with Fawkes' feathers in them? Not everyone can have one, of course -- but if such a wand chooses you, then you get recruited into a more direct fight against Voldemort. No doubt this has been discussed before, but I haven't noticed it in the archives. Ersatz Harry From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 6 14:36:29 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:36:29 -0000 Subject: Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Ohhhh, JKR *loves* bangst. Examples: > > [snip] > > Other examples, anyone? Not as good an example, but how about the chess game in CoS? Ron apparently sacrifices himself -- bang! But he wouldn't have been there had Harry not brought him along -- angst! Or maybe how Ginny was close to feeling when she realized that Harry had Riddle's book, though that was probably more like angst! bang! Good luck coming up with a short form for that. Ersatz Harry From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 6 14:54:12 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:54:12 -0000 Subject: Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57129 Pip: > > Ohhhh, JKR *loves* bangst. Examples: > > Seeing Voldemort kill the spare right in front of you --Bang! > Thinking it was your fault because you made him take the cup > with you--Angst! > > You find out your pal is a traitor when you discover the murdered > bodies of your best friend and his wife -- Bang! > You realize he couldn't have done it if it weren't for your clever > idea --Angst! > > > Other examples, anyone? The girl you've barely noticed for three-and-a-half years shows up at the dance looking like a goddess -- Bang! You realize that if you weren't such a stupid git and had just asked her sooner, that goddess might very well be on your arm - Angst! Darrin -- Of course, would Hermione have gotten all dolled up like that for Ron? From cindysphynx at comcast.net Tue May 6 14:57:55 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:57:55 -0000 Subject: Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57130 Pippin identified a few potential examples of "Bangst:" > Seeing Voldemort kill the spare right in front of you --Bang! > Thinking it was your fault because you made him take the cup > with you--Angst! > > You find out your pal is a traitor when you discover the murdered > bodies of your best friend and his wife -- Bang! > You realize he couldn't have done it if it weren't for your clever > idea --Angst! Hmmm. But there are lots of examples of Bang without Angst, which shows JKR might not be a "Bangsta" after all. In the Shrieking Shack, Lupin and Sirius almost execute Pettigrew, to the point of raising their wands and saying goodbye. They seem not the least bit troubled by this. Harry throws a badge and hits Ron in the forehead, but doesn't seem the least bit remorseful or angst-ridden. Cindy -- who is supposed to be getting something useful done From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 6 13:39:59 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (Hans) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:39:59 -0000 Subject: Joke? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57131 Is humour allowed in this group? According to the Sun http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2- 2003202221,00.html two copies of OOP have been found in a field in Bungay, Suffolk. There's supposed to be a THIRD copy in circulation as a mysterious stranger has asked nearly THIRTY thousend pounds for the first THREE chapters. Surely that field must henceforth be called "Potter's Field?" That's my THIRTY bob's worth. (With apologies to Matthew 27:7) Hans From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue May 6 15:20:51 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:20:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <141141373470.20030506082051@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57132 Hi, Tuesday, May 06, 2003, 7:54:12 AM, darrin_burnett wrote: > -- Of course, would Hermione have gotten all dolled up like that for > Ron? I'm not sure she did it "for Victor", either. Maybe more for herself? To show everyone that she could if she wanted to? ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 6 14:49:25 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:49:25 -0000 Subject: Modified JKR Quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aja_1991" wrote: > A colleague sent me a link to the following article: > > http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003202221,00.html > > I'm not familiar with various British publications, so I'm not sure > if the Sun is considered more traditional news source or tabloid > (although having since glanced at the sidebar advertising and home > page I'm leaning toward the latter...), but the article is > interesting anyway. > The key quote, however, comes when the author of the article attempts > to familiarize folks with information about the book. > > "The 37-year-old writer, who lives with her husband and two children > in Scotland, also announced: 'There's at least one death that's going > to be horrible to write, or rather rewrite.'" ... > REwrite? ... > Perhaps [...] we learn that Dumbledore was somehow there, saw > it all happen, was powerless for some reason to stop it, and has > dumped the memory into the Pensieve so that Harry can see it. > > Thoughts? > > aja_1991 Oh, I know! Astral projection! That's how Dumbledore could see it all but have no time to do anything! What are the rules for astral projection? On "Jackie Chan" (yeah, my kids like it, OK?) the person can travel and observe but cannot be seen or heard and cannot affect anything physically (obviously). Maybe that's how Dumbledore finds out a lot of what's going on at Hogwarts, too. Annemehr half silly and half serious From hp at plum.cream.org Tue May 6 15:47:58 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:47:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Modified JKR Quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030506163149.0097b910@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57134 At 14:46 06/05/03 , aja_1991 wrote: >I'm not familiar with various British publications, so I'm not sure >if the Sun is considered more traditional news source or tabloid >(although having since glanced at the sidebar advertising and home >page I'm leaning toward the latter...), It's absolutely, definitely not only "a" tabloid publication, but is generally accepted as the very definition of the word in British publishing. IOW, you can't get lower than the Sun. >But I don't ever recall seeing the last three words before... "...or >rather rewrite." > >REwrite? It's a quote from the interview at the CoS premiere. There's a BBC summary at http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2401000/2401765.stm although it doesn't include the whole interview. Of course, the Sun didn't say that the quote was from before the book was finished, which is fairly typical for their style of "journalism". General note, not directed specifically at this quote, or indeed at aja. One of the things that really gets me about HP fandom is that JKR gets quoted completely out of context from one interview to another report, and people build theories on the report rather than looking for the source. Even worse is when the second-hand report generates a rumour, and people then quote the *rumour* as "something JKR said". Jeez. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who thought the original Sun story was too unlikely to be true until the BBC started quoting Bloomsbury sources talking about investigating a "theft"... From meboriqua at aol.com Tue May 6 16:00:05 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:00:05 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Don't you ladies have any survival instincts? Harry's a nice kid and all, but he's also marked for death by the most evil wizard anyone can remember. > > Here's how a guy, IF he were being honest with himself and hadn't > just finished watching the Terminator or Rocky, would react to a > Harriet Potter, with the same problems. > > Harriet: Yes, I've got Voldemort going after me. He's also targeted > my best friend, Veronica and my other best friend, Herman. > > Honest guy: So, he'd also likely target anyone you started dating? > > Harriet: Uh-huh > > Honest guy: Well, good luck with that. And, uh, do you know if > Lavender is seeing anyone?> Well, this may be the way men act, but for women... oy, what you don't know about us is a lot! To know that Harry not only needs good lovin' to make up for his lonely childhood is enough to make many of us swoon, but add to that his fight with the Big Bad? Wow! He's exciting and had a dangerous edge to him too! Then add to *that* the fact that he actually escaped from said Big Bad? Hold me back! I can't lie - knowing that my boyfriend has been in fights and knowing he has won all of them is a turn-on even though I don't want him fighting. Harry wins his fights, which makes him the ultimate man. Isn't this part of what makes Sirius appealing to so many women as well? Knowing he'll duke it out with Snape, Pettigrew, even Lupin before they realized they were still friends... how manly! --jenny from ravenclaw, who'd better send this before her students walk into the classroom! **************************************** From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 16:34:11 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:34:11 -0000 Subject: Modified JKR Quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57136 First me (aja_1991): >Perhaps [...] we learn that Dumbledore was somehow there, saw >it all happen, was powerless for some reason to stop it, and has >dumped the memory into the Pensieve so that Harry can see it. Then Annemehr: > Oh, I know! Astral projection! That's how Dumbledore could see it > all but have no time to do anything! > > What are the rules for astral projection? On "Jackie Chan" (yeah, > my kids like it, OK?) the person can travel and observe but cannot be > seen or heard and cannot affect anything physically (obviously). > > Maybe that's how Dumbledore finds out a lot of what's going on at > Hogwarts, too. > > Annemehr > half silly and half serious Me (aja_1991) again: Hey, it works, doesn't it? :-) And we don't that Dumbledore DOESN'T have that ability, or some type of remote sight skills, or clairvoyance, etc, etc. Dumbledore says something in PS/SS when confronting Harry at the Mirror of Erised to the affect of "I don't need a cloak to be invisible." Hmmm... The only problem I have with this whole thing (even though I pretty much tossed it out as an idea) is that if Dumbledore *DID* see what happened, why didn't he (1) "reconnect" himself and (2) apparate to Godric's Hollow and save James or Lily or Harry? Of course, there's that whole Dumbledore-Is-Ron theory... aja_1991 From suzchiles at pobox.com Tue May 6 15:52:15 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (SUZANNE CHILES) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:52:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The ancient magic of gifts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57137 This brings to mind one of my favorite sentences in GoF. In the early part of the book, while Voldemort, Wormtail, and Nagini are in residence at the old Riddle mansion, Voldemort tells Wormtail that he will give him an opportunity that any wizard would "give his right hand for" Suzanne From: Ersatz Harry > Well, let me toss out another example of magical gifts: "the > flesh of > the servant, willingly given". I can't imagine that Wormtail really > *wanted* to lop off his hand for the sake of Voldemort, but he did do > it, and the action seems to be the key, not the intent. Perhaps > something analogous applied to the Dursleys' gifts to Harry. From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Tue May 6 16:13:22 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 11:13:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand Contents Message-ID: <3EB7DF22.659DF167@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57138 Ersatz Harry wrote: > On a less silly topic, does it not seem possible that the title Order > of the Phoenix refers to a group of wizards who are given new wands > with Fawkes' feathers in them? > Pat replies: Don't think so, per the quote below. Sounds like Olivander doesn't plan on making any more of these wands, either. Surely Fawkes has had more than two feathers in his... lives. Perhaps that Olivander can only make wands with feathers Fawkes gives to him, as opposed to him taking the feathers? And I don't think wizards would get new wands, just for a new core. It's an interesting idea, however! Won't know until June 21.... > "I remember every wand I've ever sold, Mr. Potter. Every single wand. It so happens that the phoenix > whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather - just one other. It is very curious indeed that you > should be destined for this wand when its brother - why its brother gave you that scar." Sorcerer's Stone, p. 85 > Pat-- whose six year old shouts "Alohamora!" every time we go through motion-activated doors.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Tue May 6 18:13:47 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:13:47 -0000 Subject: Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > Hmmm. But there are lots of examples of Bang without Angst, which > shows JKR might not be a "Bangsta" after all. > > In the Shrieking Shack, Lupin and Sirius almost execute Pettigrew, > to the point of raising their wands and saying goodbye. They seem > not the least bit troubled by this. > > Harry throws a badge and hits Ron in the forehead, but doesn't seem > the least bit remorseful or angst-ridden. > Well, that's because now we're running into Real Wizards Don't Apologize territory, which you yourself staked out with your own flag Back In The Day, March 14, 2002, Message 36556. "Sirius never apologizes to Snape, Ron, or Lupin. Snape never apologizes to Harry, Lupin, or Sirius. Ron never apologizes to Harry for being a prat in GoF or paying off a debt with vanishing gold; Harry never apologizes to Ron for bopping him in the head with a badge. Lupin never apologizes to Dumbledore for the werewolf adventures or for his hideous errors in judgment throughout PoA. McGonagall doesn't apologize for letting Crouch Jr.'s soul get away from her. Don't even get me started on Hagrid." So if there's no apology, it's because there's no angst to begin with. Can't have one without the other. --Dicentra From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 16:40:59 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:40:59 -0000 Subject: Modified JKR Quote? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030506163149.0097b910@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57140 GulPlum wrote: > It's a quote from the interview at the CoS premiere. There's a BBC summary at > http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2401000/2401765.stm > although it doesn't include the whole interview. Me (aja_1991): Thanks for providing the context of the quote... definitely paints it in the proper perspective. GulPlum wrote: > Of course, the Sun didn't say that the quote was from before the book was > finished, which is fairly typical for their style of "journalism". > > General note, not directed specifically at this quote, or indeed at aja. > One of the things that really gets me about HP fandom is that JKR gets > quoted completely out of context from one interview to another report, and > people build theories on the report rather than looking for the source. > Even worse is when the second-hand report generates a rumour, and people > then quote the *rumour* as "something JKR said". Jeez. Me (aja_1991): Agreed entirely. Actually, your response to my original message is what I would hope would happen - someone sees something that looks different and potentially valuable, presents it to the group, which considers and debates it and uses the vast knowledge of the group to provide context, original sources, or simply debunks the whole thing. So... thanks, GulPlum! aja_1991 From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Tue May 6 15:51:31 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:51:31 -0400 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9B8AAB7E-7FDA-11D7-AE43-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57141 On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 07:07 PM, Steve wrote: > Harry is a very important person in the wizarding world; important in > their past, and more important in their future Which brings up a good point. Obviously Harry is extremely important for reasons that we still don't know (but hopefully will in 45 days, 12 hours, 19 minutes, and 56 seconds :-). Why, for instance, did Voldemort go to the Potters' house specifically to kill Harry? He kept telling Lily to stand aside so that he could kill Harry. Why? Why not just go ahead and kill her? Why bother trying to spare her? So, if Harry is so important, all these threats about being expelled from Hogwarts are just blowing smoke up his...ahem...er...uh. There is NO WAY that they would expel him--for ANY reason. If he's that important, they want to make sure that he gets fully trained the way THEY want him to be trained. It wouldn't do any good to expel him and have him end up being a below-average wizard due to lack of proper training. They want to make sure he becomes the best wizard he can possibly be in order to do whatever it is that he was destined to do. Sooner or later Harry will figure that out and stop being so afraid of being expelled just for the little rule breaking he does. (Okay, so maybe some of it was not so little. But the fact that he hasn't gotten expelled for some of the big things should be his first clue!) --Dan From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue May 6 17:59:36 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:59:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizard names and witchy babes References: <1052174860.3619.33871.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c313f9$421d3260$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 57142 Stevie wrote: > > Probably an old one this but I noticed that the great wizards fore > and surnames began with the same letters. Salazar Slytherin, Godric > Gryffindor etc. Is there a meaning to this? Snape and McGonagall > also have same. Probably nothing but does anyone have any ideas > about this? Stevie The only thing I can think of on this is that there is some sort of connection with the heavy use of alliteration in poetry at the time the Founders were around, therefore making sense to give a first name beginning with the same letter as the surname. Nowadays, probably just coincidence. Darrin, by contrast listed the women he fancies, and came up with > > * Madame Rosmerta. Curvy bartender! I am SO there. If she could cook > * Narcissa Malfoy. Ice queen! Oh yeah. I'll give you an example. People who > * Fleur. The obvious choice. I rank her third, but as soon as she started doing > * Hooch. Fast brooms and fast women! > * Madame Maxime. Once you've had giant, you're never again self-reliant. > * Molly Weasley. They say you marry your mother... > * McGonagall, Trelawney, Rita Skeeter - Nope. Never. Not anyway or how. > * Hermione - Smart is waayyyyyy sexy. (Movie poisioning here, but Emma > * Cho Chang - total sporty spice > * Angelina, Katie, and that other Gryff girl on the Quidditch team. See sporty > * Lavender - total hottie, a bit cliquie, but oh well. > * Moaning Myrtle - Guy rule. Go after the girl feeling lonely at the party. > * The Patil girls. Much too materialistic to suit me, but they are babes. > * Ginny. Yeah, far down on the list, really, but too much of the "little sister" But forgot about Irma Pince - can't beat a sexy librarian... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From emeleel at juno.com Tue May 6 17:35:26 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:35:26 -0500 Subject: The Sorting Hat...Why was Lockhart hired....Lynn's random thoughts Message-ID: <20030506.123527.-874975.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57143 The Sorting Hat Jim wrote: >"Not exactly," Dumbledore answered her. "At least, not always. What does the Hat say? 'Try me on and I >will tell you where you ought to be'. Ought to be, Miss Granger. Have you ever considered that the Hat >might take into account a larger purpose than the student under it?" >"Even I do not know the limits of what the Sorting Hat knows, or how it knows it. Or what the Hat sees. >But the Hat does know, just as it knew you. That's a very good point! We do know that the Hat is at least somewhat sentient - it was able to carry on a conversation with Harry in DD's office in CoS. It also talked with him at the Sorting Ceremony, but if that was the only canon about it, we could just assume it only comes "alive" for Sorting. But the conversation in DD's office precludes that idea. Who knows just how "alive" the thing is, and how much it really does see and know? And being 1000 years old (approx.), it will have seen lots of things, taken in lots of information over the years. (Assuming it stays on that shelf behind the desk, where it can see.) ******** Why was Lockhart hired? Several ideas have been posted in the last few days; basically they boil down to either A) DD was fooled by Lockhart's claims of DADA experience or B) He hired him knowing full well he was a fraud, in order to passively teach the kids that fame isn't all it's cracked up to be. However, while looking up something else, I came across this in CoS. It's during the conversation in Hagrid's cabin while Ron is upchucking slugs: "He was the *on'y* man for the job," said Hagrid, offering them a plate of treacle fudge, while Ron coughed squelchily into his basin. "An' I mean the *on'y* one. Gettin' very difficult ter find anyone few the Dark Arts job. People aren't too keen ter take it on, see. They're startin' to think it's jinxed. No one's lasted long few a while now." (Makes me wonder how many DADA teachers there were before Quirell, and how long THEY lasted!) So apparently, Lockhart was the only person who was...brave?...stupid?... enough to try and take the job. DD probably had Lockhart's number the instant he walked onto the grounds, but he was the only one they could get, so DD figured he'd just let him try and hope for the best. ************ Lynn's random thoughts: > 7. Why did Hermione lie about going after the > troll? Was she supposed to have a pass to go to > the toilet, didn't have one and thought that was > worse? She was protecting Ron and Harry. Hermione's pretty quick on the uptake; I think she figured out that Ron and Harry hadn't bothered with telling anyone about her being in the bathroom, had just taken off by themselves. This would have gotten them into big trouble. So she takes the blame, instead, out of gratitude for them saving her life. (Of course, she wouldn't have been IN the predicament in the first place if A) Ron hadn't insulted her, sending her into a crying jag and B) if the boys had checked before they locked the troll into the bathroom with her!) > 9. Why didn't Harry just tell Quirrell what he > had previously seen in the Mirror of Erised, his > parents, instead of making something else up? I think telling this, even just to say he saw his parents, would have been telling too much of something that was private and painful to him. When he first sees the mirror, he's very excited, dragging Ron to see it, but after DD explains to him that the mirror reflects one's deepest desire, it would be something very personal to him. After 10 years of living with the Dursley's, I'm sure he's very vulnerable and keeps things to himself. He wouldn't want to tell someone - especially not a person who's treating him the way Quirell is at the moment - what he is seeing in the mirror. It would open him up to all sorts of nasty possibilities. > 12. How were Crouch, Jr. and Wormtail able to > get past Moody's foe detectors so easily that > they were able to get into his house and > overpower him, granted, after a struggle? Well, there was a lot of trouble with the dustbins outside. I'd always assumed they lured him outside somehow, and attacked him out there. Perhaps they stayed far enough away from the house not to be detected as threats, moved the dustbins or something else around with spells, and the noises drew him outside, and then they attacked. > 13. Why didn't anyone do the Priori Incantatem > spell on Sirius's wand to find out if he was the > one who had cast the spell that blew up the > street? Why didn't he suggest that when he was > arrested? Well, we know he didn't get a trial - they just took the eyewitness accounts they had, took them at their word, did no investigating, then Fudge chucked Sirius into Azkaban. The MoM was probably too furious to think about doing the PI spell, and Sirius was probably in too much emotional pain to think of it himself. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From catherinemck at hotmail.com Tue May 6 15:59:38 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:59:38 -0000 Subject: Joke? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hans" wrote: > Is humour allowed in this group? > > According to the Sun http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2- > 2003202221,00.html two copies of OOP have been found in a field in > Bungay, Suffolk. There's supposed to be a THIRD copy in circulation > as a mysterious stranger has asked nearly THIRTY thousend pounds for > the first THREE chapters. Surely that field must henceforth be > called "Potter's Field?" > > That's my THIRTY bob's worth. > (With apologies to Matthew 27:7) > > Hans Hmm, spotted the cover in Sainsbury's and nearly had a heart attack. Then I looked at the website. My cynical self suspects mock up of front page glued into similar-sized dog-eared volume. But then again, straner things have been left lying about in London. Catherine From dicentra at xmission.com Tue May 6 19:49:45 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:49:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <9B8AAB7E-7FDA-11D7-AE43-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan Delaney wrote: > > Sooner or later Harry will figure that out and stop being so afraid of > being expelled just for the little rule breaking he does. (Okay, so > maybe some of it was not so little. But the fact that he hasn't gotten > expelled for some of the big things should be his first clue!) > This is an interesting point. I've also noticed that Harry isn't a little scofflaw, and yet Dumbledore says in CoS that one of the qualities that Harry possesses that Salazar Slytherin would have valued is "a certain disregard for rules." What does he mean by this? Harry keeps his nose clean throughout most of the school year. He *does* sweat the rules, and most of the time breaks them only when he believes it's absolutely necessary. A notable exception is sneaking into Hogsmeade, but most of the time he isn't breaking the rules just because he can, despite Snape's accusations. I think one of the reasons Dumbledore keeps the threat of expulsion over his head is that it won't do for Harry to think he has carte blanche at Hogwarts. That wouldn't do much for his character development. (The other reason is that it adds dramatic tension when Harry et al. go out of bounds.) Yeah, you would think that Harry would catch on: Ron certainly has. When Harry wonders why Fudge let him off for floating Aunt Marge, Ron says, in essence, "Duh! You're Famous Harry Potter." But Harry doesn't identify with the Famous part. Being extremely important to the wizarding world doesn't seem to be on his radar either, despite the fact that he knows that Voldemort keeps zeroing in on him. Harry is just clueless, I guess. --Dicentra, who figures it's that Stoned!Harry thing that messes with his head :D From patricia at obscure.org Tue May 6 18:30:09 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] LV's mudblood ancestry In-Reply-To: <20030506015829.70741.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57146 On Mon, 5 May 2003, Odile Falaise wrote: > The motivation of Tom Riddle/Voldemort is something > that intrigues me as well. But I am having a really > hard time with that of Lucius Malfoy and the other > Death Eaters: if Mudbloods (and all those they > consider inferior to them) are so repulsive to them, > then why are they devoted to someone with this > background? Because he can offer them power, and power is more important to them than their supposed ideals. At least, that's my take on it. It's likely that at least some of the DEs don't know about LV's parentage (I doubt LV would bring up the subject voluntarily), but even if they all did I think very few would leave his service. He is promising his followers total control over the wizarding world. If they have to cozy up to a half-blood to get it, I believe they gladly would. All of which, I think, demonstrates that the Voldemort Wars are not really a conflict of ideas, however much LV would like us to believe that's the case. It's fundamentally about personal advancement and weilding power over others. Any idealistic component is and will always be secondary to that goal. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From jmeec316 at aol.com Tue May 6 19:39:37 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:39:37 -0000 Subject: Neville/Memory Charms In-Reply-To: <20030506073956.28454.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57147 Lynn: IMO, Neville was placed in the scene so he could pass on the information of Harry's reaction to the Dementors to Draco and Co. If Neville hadn't told Draco, no one other than the Trio, Ginny and Lupin would have known how Harry was affected until the first Quidditch game and I don't see any of them talking to Draco. It also tells us that Neville is willing to tell Draco things about Harry. I've always found it interesting that Neville would do this. Jaimee: I know there is no canon to support this, but I always assumed Draco OVERHEARD Neville talking about Harry's reaction to the dementors. In the text, Draco says, "You fainted, Potter? Is Longbottom telling the truth? You actually fainted?" It doesn't EXACTLY say Nevilled told Draco personally. I mean...could you really see them having a amiable conversation? Does Draco ever say anything to Neville that isn't in some form of ridicule? I always pictured Neville making his way to the carriages with Seamus and Dean...or maybe Parvati and Lavender...and being like "What did you think of those Dementors? Freaky, huh? They even made Harry pass out-- as brave as he is about everything! Can you believe that?" And Draco just happened to be nearby...of course.... But that's just my 2 knuts :-D -Jaimee From sl010c0016 at blueyonder.co.uk Tue May 6 18:22:09 2003 From: sl010c0016 at blueyonder.co.uk (stephen) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:22:09 -0000 Subject: Oop copies found Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57148 Not sure how many members know but three copys of Oop were found in a field yesterday. They were from a local print works. A man found them out walking. one copy is still missing. The other two were handed in to one of our british tabloids. For full story go to thesun.co.uk Stephen From spfrss at libero.it Tue May 6 18:59:12 2003 From: spfrss at libero.it (spfrss) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:59:12 -0000 Subject: Hermione's wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57149 Maybe I'm a not too careful reader, but I don't remember having read anything about Hermione's wand... What do you suggest? Cheers Maruo From sarudy at yahoo.com Tue May 6 20:48:53 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:48:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan Delaney wrote: >> >> Sooner or later Harry will figure that out and stop being >> so afraid of being expelled just for the little rule breaking >> he does. (Okay, so maybe some of it was not so little. But >> the fact that he hasn't gotten expelled for some of the big >> things should be his first clue!) > This is an interesting point. I've also noticed that Harry > isn't a little scofflaw, and yet Dumbledore says in CoS that > one of the qualities that Harry possesses that Salazar > Slytherin would have valued is "a certain disregard for rules." Actually, I tend to disagree. Harry may not think all rules are pointless, but he does seem to think they don't apply to him. Sneaking out to stop Quirrell, while heroic, was against all sort of rules. (And, I should point out, put the stone in far more jeapardy than if he had simply stayed in the dorms as instructed.) He works with Hermione to create a polyjuice potion (which they are not allowed to make) using a book from the library (which they were not allowed to have) to infiltrate Sytherine House (where they are not allowed to go), after drugging two members of Sytherin (which has to be some kind of assault). And that was a stunt that didn't even pan out. He uses the invisibility cloak to sneak out after hours to go visit Hagrid, and thought that driving the enchanted car to Hogwarts was a reasonable idea. > What does he mean by this? Harry keeps his nose clean > throughout most of the school year. He *does* sweat the > rules, and most of the time breaks them only when he believes > it's absolutely necessary. A notable exception is sneaking > into Hogsmeade, but most of the time he isn't breaking the > rules just because he can, despite Snape's accusations. Harry always thinks he has the best and most urgent reasons to break the rules, but he does break them left and right. It's an attitude that says "I think I know what is important better than the people who make the rules", which qualifies as "disregard" for me. -Karmakaze From sydenmill at msn.com Tue May 6 21:03:05 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:03:05 -0000 Subject: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57151 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > Okay, I know this may have been discussed before, but why would > Harry be worried about Ron as a Keeper for the team? Wouldn't Harry > be happy for Ron? My response: Harry will probably be Captain of the team, as Wood was in his 5th year. Therefore, as Captain, Harry would once again be in a superior position to Ron -- and -- to make matters worse, also have to tell Ron what to do. . . It is very difficult to become a "boss" over your friends under the best of circumstances but to have it happen with the long history between Harry and Ron might be more than Ron can tolerate. And, something that will worry Harry. bohcoo From errolowl at yahoo.com Tue May 6 20:36:52 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:36:52 -0000 Subject: Crushes on female characters (Was: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57152 Between Darrin and me, we wrote: > Pomfry, Sprout, and (gasp) Trelawney ? you got to be kidding! > In order. Too grandmother. Too aunt. Too crazy aunt locked up in > the attic. Molly? That would be practically incestuous. > True, but I bet she was a hottie, back in the day. > > Which has me wondering. If the "Aunt", the "mother", > the "grandmother" etc are negative stereotypes while > evaluating potential crushes ... how come the ladies don't feel > Lupin is too fatherly, or Harry too brotherly, or Moody too > "eccentric uncle in the attic"? ladies? Abigail replied: > Oh, Errol. You don't really need an answer to that question, do you? No Abi, not really! T'was just a general commentary on how women evaluate fatherly characteristics as if it pertained to the father of their children, while guys see their own mother in motherly women for the most part. Rosebeth: >>IMHO, Lupin's "fatherly" concern for Harry is reason to like him more. Being "fatherly" really is just a name for a group of things. He's caring, concerned, guiding. He disciplines Harry. Anyway, these are ideal qualities that we look for in men.<< Oh, I got that. I was just wondering where the line is that seperates fatherly characteristics from the father stereotype. Abigail: >>It's not women who crush on older men who have a problem, it's the men who don't crush on older women. Women get old, men get distinguished. Older men are sexy, older women are not. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.<< Twisted I agree. Though I _have_ known women who get sexier as they get older. Many older women are sexy too, they just need to keep the sparkle. Now if Minerva's eyes were to twinkle with humor, and she made oddly irreverent speeches, and wore sparkly red heels under her robes, and wasn't so bent on being a disciplinarian, she would certainly count on the crushometer. Then, any other mothering instinct she displayed would be easier to categorize under virtues/characteristics rather than push her into the mother stereotype. But Moody can grumble and grouch and be as paranoid an old bachelor as possible, and still register with the women. Yes, Bent is the word. Abigail: >>Also, as was frequently pointed out during the "Snape is/is not sexy" debate, being sexy is a function of how powerful you are. Almost all of the older men in the Potterverse are powerful, and relatively few of the older women are. Which is why Mrs. Lestrange, for example, whose age is never given, but who is certainly within Snape's age group and therefore not in the first bloom of youth, is still sexy - she has power.<< But so do Minerva, and Rita, and Olympe. Here, power does not equal Sexy. It needs something more. Mme Maxime has more of that edge than the other two. If Power was the most potent aphrodisiac, Rosemerta would not count for much now would she? And She's older than Snape too. No, there is something beyond power at work here. Tammy: > > Jenny, you are not alone! My fourteen-year-old self is right there with yours, I can guarantee you that, ogling poor Harry and wishing she could make all his hurts go away. :-)<< And Darrin, (quite) foolishly inserting himself into this: >>Don't you ladies have any survival instincts? Harry's a nice kid and all, but he's also marked for death by the most evil wizard anyone can remember. Here's how a guy, IF he were being honest with himself and hadn't just finished watching the Terminator or Rocky, would react to a Harriet Potter, with the same problems. Harriet: Yes, I've got Voldemort going after me. He's also targeted my best friend, Veronica and my other best friend, Herman. Honest guy: So, he'd also likely target anyone you started dating? Harriet: Uh-huh Honest guy: Well, good luck with that. And, uh, do you know if Lavender is seeing anyone?<< LOL. Ladies, here I have to put Darrin's example in true light. How many honest men do you know? Nah, I'd say there are a few delusional folk out there who see themselves charging in and rescuing the damsel in distress ... the media has set us up for it I admit. The lure of being a MAN and solving all the worlds problems with a snap of the fingers, just so the ladies can swoon at you feet and tell you how wonderful you are... did I say delusional? I should have said hopelessly lost souls. Especially at fifteen. And at twenty five. And at thirty five. So regular fifteen year old macho guy probably would be mooning at Harriet too, and making a total pest of himself trying to solve all her problems in the most high handed way possible. And then of course, there are the honest men ... >Darrin: >I'm giving away all the secrets. The guys are going to KILL me. Nah, you're ok... most of the guys are just pretending this thread doesn't exist. If you don't see it, it never happened right? You realize we were the only ones suckered into this little loop? Errol Who realises rather belatedly that most of this post is OT, and will skip to another thread now From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue May 6 21:13:16 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:13:16 -0000 Subject: Neville/Memory Charms In-Reply-To: <004801c31388$aa5b5c60$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57153 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: > Can Neville recover? I don't think so. The example of Bertha Jorkins suggests that Neville has little prospect of recovery. Breaking a Memory Charm seems to involve even more brain damage than casting the charm does. > > Moreover, notwithstanding that the elder Longbottoms are still alive, I'm not expecting them to somehow recover their memories, because I see Frank & Mrs. Longbottom's condition -- dead to Neville and yet not dead -- as a companion image to Neville's condition. Both represent a past that has been irretrievably lost. > I'm jumping in here, right in the middle, without having read the preceding posts, so it's quite possible that I've missed relevant points. Still ... I don't see why you're so sure that Neville can't recover from a memory charm (assuming he is under one). The Bertha Jorkins story shows us that as far as recovering the memory itself, the memory does still exist and therefore can be accessed. As to whether recovering the memory necessarily entails the breakdown of the personality, I really don't think that we have enough information on that. We don't know whether Bertha lost her mind (that's how I understand Voldemort refering to her as being of no further use) because of the torture as such or because of the breaking of the memory charm. In any case, I don't see why it should be impossible for a memory charm to be removed benignently. (Especially by the wizard who cast it in the first place.) Also, wouldn't it be a bit lame to have a memory charmed Neville who *doesn't* recover his memory? Surely such a heavily built up lost memory has to play an important part in the plot. Or do you expect Neville to reveal it and then go insane as well? That would be much too gruesome, right? But to leave a Neville who is incomplete psychologcially I think is almost as bad. After all, one of the main themes of the books is growth and maturation. So, for me, it's highly unlikely that Neville (if indeed he is memory charmed) will not recover - both his lost memory and himself. I think that the parllel is Harry/parents:Neville/parents. By the end of the series, Harry will live on/[parents dead] and Neville will have healed mentally/ [parents insane]. Unless she kills him, of course. Naama, who actually thinks that the next dead will be one of the twins ... most likely George From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Tue May 6 21:08:46 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:08:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's wand In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052255326.3eb8245e4997a@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 57154 Quoting spfrss : > Maybe I'm a not too careful reader, but I don't remember having read > anything about Hermione's wand... > > What do you suggest? If I recall correctly, it never is mentioned what Hermione's wand is made of. We only know about Ron's because of the condition of the old one and his excitement over the new one..... Namarie~~~Amber -- Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 20:39:23 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:39:23 -0000 Subject: Neville; Fourth Man/Snape; James and Lily/Pettigrew, Order of Merlin/Pet.-Nevi. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57155 Hello there! ::Waves at list administrator who is moderating her message!:: ::List adminstrator waves back!:: :-) I was re-reading PoA last night, and kept coming across interesting little things, nothing major. This is my first post... I've been keeping up with recent theories and threads, but I haven't gone very far back. But none of this stuff seems to have been mentioned for awhile, at least, so I apologize if it's incessantly annoying to someone in some way! PoA, hard cover p 137. "Hook-nosed and menacing, Professor Snape stepped out, his eyes flashing at Neville. Neville backed away, his wand up, mouthing wordlessly. Snape was bearing down on him, reaching inside his robes. 'R --- r--- riddikulus!' squeaked Neville." This is the scene of Lupin's first DADA class with the third year Gryffindors. My thought is that the reason Neville so strongly fears Snape, when there could be other things that scare him more, is because he remembers (or doesn't, depending on your take on the memory charm theory) Snape threatening his parents. I realize that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore... but he still would have had to do missions, to keep the death eaters happy. He would have had to *seem* like he was evil, even if he wasn't. p 204. Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. "Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You- Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of the tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding." If the reason Snape tried to save Harry in Book 1 is because he wanted to repay hi debt to James so that he could return to hating him in peace, as Dumbledore says it is, wouldn't it hold true that he would have tried to save them by telling Dumbledore about Voldemort's plot? I realize that it could have been a number of spies that told DD, I just feel that Snape is the most logical one. p 208. "Black was taken away by twenty members of the Magical Law Enforcement Squad and Pettigrew recieved the Order of Merlin, First Class, which I think was some comfort to his poor mother." I wonder if his mother is still alive? And the real reason I put this up here is the Order of Merlin, First class. For remarkable bravery? Did Dumbledore earn his by defeating Grindelwald? For his work against Voldemort? I'm sure we'll find out, at some point. p 213. "(Harry) watched, as though somebody was playing him a piece of film, Sirius Black blastin Peter Pettigrew (who resembled Neville Longbottom) into a thousand pieces." He wasn't actually asleep at the time, so this can't be one of his oddly prophetic dreams. However, he seems to compare Peter to Neville in his mind. Maybe we should watch for this. After all, in the first book, if a fourth friend was to be choosen for Ron, Hermione, and Harry, it would likely have been Neville. Well, that's it for me for now! Thanks for reading! Becky, who has a cold-sore in her mouth that she really wishes Madam Pomfrey would take a look at. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue May 6 20:37:19 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:37:19 -0000 Subject: Dreadful Synopses/Spoilers (was: Joke?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherinemckiernan" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hans" wrote: > > Is humour allowed in this group? > > > > According to the Sun http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2- > > 2003202221,00.html two copies of OOP have been found in a field in > > Bungay, Suffolk. There's supposed to be a THIRD copy in circulation > > as a mysterious stranger has asked nearly THIRTY thousend pounds for > > the first THREE chapters. Surely that field must henceforth be > > called "Potter's Field?" > > > > That's my THIRTY bob's worth. > > (With apologies to Matthew 27:7) What's really dreadful about this story is not, well, the story, but the blurbs by Tim Spanton for the first four books which appear down the right-hand side of the screen. Not only are they riddled with inaccuracies (Harry does NOT use the Philosopher's Stone to defeat Voldemort in book one, Voldemort does not open the Chamber of Secrets--it's Ginny--and Voldemort never drinks Harry's blood, it is placed in the cauldron in which Peter PUTS Voldemort. If anything, he takes a BATH in it. And Harry is not transported to his 'lair.' A graveyard is not his 'lair.') They are also just full of spoilers! Every single synopsis spoils the ending of the book in question, sometimes by just plain getting it wrong! Ack! This guy should be run out of town on a rail! I hope no one reads this story online who has never read the HP books. Everything about them will be spoilt! --Barb AKA BabsGeist, really wanting to throw a crate of water balloons at Tim Spanton From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 6 20:48:27 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:48:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's Lying (was Re: ...Lynn's random thoughts) In-Reply-To: <20030506.123527.-874975.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > > 9. Why didn't Harry just tell Quirrell what he > > had previously seen in the Mirror of Erised, his > > parents, instead of making something else up? > > I think telling this, even just to say he saw his parents, would > have been telling too much of something that was private and > painful to him. When he first sees the mirror, he's very excited, > dragging Ron to see it, but after DD explains to him that the > mirror reflects one's deepest desire, it would be something very > personal to him. After 10 years of living with the Dursley's, I'm > sure he's very vulnerable and keeps things to himself. I view this mostly the same way, and I have to note that Harry's default in a lot of tense situations is to lie. I don't have a list of all the instances handy, but my recollection is that they are numerous, and they are not limited to cases where he is dealing with, say, Snape or Malfoy. For example, he lies to several people (at least to Bagman, Hermione, and Hagrid) about his progress in figuring out the mystery of the egg in GoF, and really for no good reason other than his own pride. Turning himself into Crabbe or Goyle (I can't remember which) in CoS is certainly a form of lying. It's not among his most admirable qualities, and I fully expect a lecture from Dumbledore about this sometime. One quick note on candidates for crushes: how could we forget about the flighty Bertha Jorkins? She'd probably be open to, um, persuasion. Ersatz Harry, who's wondering how long he will keep away from the group in late June unless he reads really really quickly... From naama_gat at hotmail.com Tue May 6 21:35:40 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:35:40 -0000 Subject: Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > Hmmm. But there are lots of examples of Bang without Angst, which > shows JKR might not be a "Bangsta" after all. > > In the Shrieking Shack, Lupin and Sirius almost execute Pettigrew, > to the point of raising their wands and saying goodbye. They seem > not the least bit troubled by this. Ah. But that's because this prepares the ground for a huge Bangst: Just when everything seemed going towards a happy ending - Sirius vindicated and Harry getting a real home - Pettigrew transforms and escapes. Bang! Because Harry was so noble minded, Pettigrew lived to escape, so it is Harry's responsibility that he is back with the Dursleys, that Sirius is in mortal danger and, worse of all, that Voldemort regained a faithful servan. Major angst! > Harry throws a badge and hits Ron in the forehead, but doesn't seem > the least bit remorseful or angst-ridden. I don't think that this scene is bangy, really. No big revelations, no great catharsis, no great surprises. Just a boy expressing some of his frustration and anger, IMO. Naama From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue May 6 21:31:46 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:31:46 -0000 Subject: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die? Fine, Then! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57159 Jo Serenadust wrote: >No, I want him to go out with the most shocking, most angsty, most >horribly Bangy Bang of all .... I want him to die at the hands >of ::gasp:: the good guys. > >Okay, here's the scenario: > >Hagrid has absolutely no clue that Sirius Black is innocent, right? >He still hates his guts, still thinks he's a threat to Harry, and >still regrets that he hadn't..."got ter Black before little >Pettigrew did, I wouldn't've messed around with wands -- I'd've >ripped him limb - from - limb." PoA, Chapter 10, p208 US hardback. > >Now, what if at some point in OOP, poor Hagrid stumbles upon Black >meeting with Harry, Ron and Hermione. Maybe Sirius is really >furious with Harry for taking some sort of stupid risk, and he's >shouting, and generally reaming him out. Hagrid assumes, as he >would, that Black is finally about to finish Harry off and so he >comes at him in a blind rage. Oh, HRH *try* to tell him that Sirius >is not a threat and isn't going to harm them, but Hagrid is in no >state to listen to reason. Sirius has no wand and can't defend >himself, and HRH can't let Hagrid murder Sirius as he is surely >about to, can they? So what *can* they do? > >Well, what do you *think* they do? I figure three Stunning spells >from the increasingly powerful junior Wizards would probably be >enough to take him down. Which would be fine, except that he >happens to be right next to: >2. the lake. The deep, deep, bottomless lake. He falls in and sinks >like a boulder before the trio can do a floating spell. He could >even be pulled under by your giant squid, if you like (although, >sadly without the mud-clawing, since he *is* stunned after all). No, no, no. Mud-clawing is good, too good to pass up. And there's a way to do it! The Trio do an Expelliarmus, not a Stunning Spell, and it'll be enough to propell him backwards and down that high mountain Hogwarts is on. And *then* he'll fall into the lake, and we can have the tentacles and the mud-clawing. And as an extra bonus, we can have Ever So Evil Dennis Creevey, since without him DeathEater!Squid makes no sense. I don't like KilledByGiants!Hagrid because it'll happen offscreen. So, unless Harry has a vision and sees it happen, we'll have to find out about it from a story. Cindy, that doesn't Bang, does it? I also like ShotByCrossbow!Hagrid. Imagine: HHR coming over to have some tea and rock cakes, only to find Hagrid, sprawled on the floor with an arrow in his chest, and Fang howling pitifully beside him. Bangst? Only I don't know if it's possible. I have trouble imagining a "backfiring" crossbow, and who'd be around to shoot him? Unless it's the central mystery of the book, which sort of makes sense - we haven't had a murder mystery as the central plotline yet. Hey, it could be a Bloody Ambush! >1. a really tall cliff. He could even :wince: be impaled on a tree >as he falls! Erm... not sure. Too common in movies to be fascinatingly gory and bloody. It'll just be disgusting and distract us from the fact that it's our dear Hagrid who's dead. In fact, it's only slightly better than a simple old Ker-Splat noise. Maria, disturbed that she likes thinking about these theories. From tammy at mauswerks.net Tue May 6 21:38:27 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:38:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Lying (was Re: ...Lynn's random thoughts) In-Reply-To: References: <20030506.123527.-874975.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <3EB7F313.30747.1C8D65F@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 57160 On 6 May 2003 at 20:48, Ersatz Harry wrote: > Ersatz Harry, who's wondering how long he will keep away from the > group in late June unless he reads really really quickly... Well, since I haven't paid the extra shipping fees for my copy from Amazon.com, I'm gonna go no-mail bright and early on the 21st (or before), and not be back until I've received the book and read it. Probably two weeks. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 20:39:08 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:39:08 -0000 Subject: Neville; Fourth Man/Snape; James and Lily/Pettigrew, Order of Merlin/Pet.-Nevi. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57161 Hello there! ::Waves at list administrator who is moderating her message!:: I was re-reading PoA last night, and kept coming across interesting little things, nothing major. This is my first post... I've been keeping up with recent theories and threads, but I haven't gone very far back. But none of this stuff seems to have been mentioned for awhile, at least, so I apologize if it's incessantly annoying to someone in some way! PoA, hard cover p 137. "Hook-nosed and menacing, Professor Snape stepped out, his eyes flashing at Neville. Neville backed away, his wand up, mouthing wordlessly. Snape was bearing down on him, reaching inside his robes. 'R --- r--- riddikulus!' squeaked Neville." This is the scene of Lupin's first DADA class with the third year Gryffindors. My thought is that the reason Neville so strongly fears Snape, when there could be other things that scare him more, is because he remembers (or doesn't, depending on your take on the memory charm theory) Snape threatening his parents. I realize that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore... but he still would have had to do missions, to keep the death eaters happy. He would have had to *seem* like he was evil, even if he wasn't. p 204. Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. "Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You- Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of the tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding." If the reason Snape tried to save Harry in Book 1 is because he wanted to repay hi debt to James so that he could return to hating him in peace, as Dumbledore says it is, wouldn't it hold true that he would have tried to save them by telling Dumbledore about Voldemort's plot? I realize that it could have been a number of spies that told DD, I just feel that Snape is the most logical one. p 208. "Black was taken away by twenty members of the Magical Law Enforcement Squad and Pettigrew recieved the Order of Merlin, First Class, which I think was some comfort to his poor mother." I wonder if his mother is still alive? And the real reason I put this up here is the Order of Merlin, First class. For remarkable bravery? Did Dumbledore earn his by defeating Grindelwald? For his work against Voldemort? I'm sure we'll find out, at some point. p 213. "(Harry) watched, as though somebody was playing him a piece of film, Sirius Black blastin Peter Pettigrew (who resembled Neville Longbottom) into a thousand pieces." He wasn't actually asleep at the time, so this can't be one of his oddly prophetic dreams. However, he seems to compare Peter to Neville in his mind. Maybe we should watch for this. After all, in the first book, if a fourth friend was to be choosen for Ron, Hermione, and Harry, it would likely have been Neville. Well, that's it for me for now! Thanks for reading! Becky, who has a cold-sore in her mouth that she really wishes Madam Pomfrey would take a look at. From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Tue May 6 20:58:25 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:58:25 -0000 Subject: Oop copies found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stephen" wrote: > Not sure how many members know but three copys of Oop were found in > a field yesterday. They were from a local print works. A man found > them out walking. one copy is still missing. The other two were > handed in to one of our british tabloids. For full story go to > thesun.co.uk Stephen Pretty awful business. I'm getting increasingly scared that I might, however much I try not to, encounter some sort of a spoiler. Could we PLEASE do everything we can to avoid this? Alice ---very worried From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue May 6 22:20:59 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hurt/Comfort Rankings (Contains The Odd TBAY Reference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506222059.26006.qmail@web20405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57163 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > > Look, Harry had lots of emotional pain before the > graveyard scene. > But as The Elkins herself once said, it was the > graveyard scene > where Harry has all of that physical pain when the > female readers > rushed to his side. I think Hurt Comfort is probably different for younger readers, actually. I know that when I was little I wrote Hurt Comfort exemplary stories based on physical pain, whereas emotional pain became important for me as I grew older. (And I can remember the exact moment I switched over too. It was reading 'Treasure Island' for the millionth time, and out of the blue developing a massive hurt-comfort crush on Jim Hawkins when he falls into Silver's hands the second time, and feels so awful about the way he's being used against his friends.) So, to capture the Harryfans' hearts, physical pain is needed, whereas the Snapefans will go for emotional pain, as demonstrated in "The Egg and the Eye." Though I'm sure they'd enjoy a spell of Snape being Crucio'ed. > And yes, lying on the Azkaban cold stone > floor with other > prisoners making so much darn noise that you can't > sleep at night > counts as physical pain in my book. We've forgotten an obvious candidate for Hurt/Comfortdom. Barty Crouch Jr. He's got it all. Physical pain, guilt, messed up and repressed emotions. And unlike other candidates, he knows the meaning of personal hygiene. And he's got blond hair and freckles! Probably quite cute, don't you think? And, if you want edge, he's got it! I don't even have to argue with you anymore. Elkins said it was obviously a redemption scene. So there! As for your specific arguments, I refuted them a long time ago, and you never answered. Let me remind you once again 1) Crouch didn't know Harry was Harry. 2) When it comes to continuing one's life, self-interest does not stand in the way of redemption. 3) JKR probably thinks telling Dumbledore alone is the best policy, anyway. >Doesn't the redemption have to be, er, consumated >to count? I don't think so. Theologically speaking, anyway. But it definitely doesn't have to when it comes to hurt-comfort. In fact, the hurt-comforter may be even more touched by the incomplete redemption. > Cindy -- looking for a way to get Fudge on the list, > but coming up > empty If you'll give up your ridiculous physical pain requirement, the answer is in PoA, where Fudge describes the horror of cleaning up after Pettigrew and Black. He'll never forget it. Scarred forever. Don't you want to comfort him, Cindy? Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Tue May 6 21:52:33 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Why Neville Ratted On Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506215233.57144.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57164 --- Jaimee wrote: > > I know there is no canon to support this, but I > always assumed Draco > OVERHEARD Neville talking about Harry's reaction to > the dementors. > > In the text, Draco says, "You fainted, Potter? Is > Longbottom telling > the truth? You actually fainted?" > > It doesn't EXACTLY say Nevilled told Draco > personally. I mean...could > you really see them having a amiable conversation? > Does Draco ever > say anything to Neville that isn't in some form of > ridicule? I obviously had much too unpleasant schooldays, as I instantly read the text as indicating that Draco had tormented Neville into telling him. There is canon precedent, after all, that Draco does bully Neville. Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue May 6 22:27:40 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:27:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Oop copies found Message-ID: <1db.9258e80.2be990dc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57165 In a message dated 5/6/2003 5:21:59 PM Central Standard Time, hypercolor99 at hotmail.com writes: > Pretty awful business. I'm getting increasingly scared that I might, > however much I try not to, encounter some sort of a spoiler. Could we > PLEASE do everything we can to avoid this? > > Alice > ---very worried > I find it curious that this man's first impluse was to call the Sun not the police. He knew it was important otherwise he wouldn''t have called them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue May 6 22:31:54 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506223154.35792.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57166 --- Dicentra wrote: > But Harry > doesn't identify with the Famous part. Being > extremely important to > the wizarding world doesn't seem to be on his > radar either, despite > the fact that he knows that Voldemort keeps > zeroing in on him. > > Harry is just clueless, I guess. Lynn: A big reason Dumbledore wanted Harry to grow up with the Dursleys is just so Harry doesn't grow up with a sense of self-importance. For all the complaints about how the Dursleys treat Harry, he grew up feeling he wasn't important and trying to earn acceptance. Any focus on Harry was negative, not positive. That's helped Harry keep some balance. Harry continues to see any focus on him as negative, not positive. Let's face it, at Hogwarts a lot of the focus has been negative. So, why should Harry get it into his head that he's anything special? If I were him, I'd be thinking that if I was really special, Snape wouldn't pick on me, I'd never have points taken away, etc. So while the WW may view Harry one way, Harry's upbringing is what makes Harry view himself differently from the WW. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue May 6 22:44:35 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506224435.20549.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57167 --- bohcoo wrote: > Harry will probably be Captain of the team, as > Wood was in his 5th > year. Therefore, as Captain, Harry would once > again be in a > superior position to Ron -- and -- to make > matters worse, also have > to tell Ron what to do. . . It is very > difficult to become a "boss" > over your friends under the best of > circumstances but to have it > happen with the long history between Harry and > Ron might be more than > Ron can tolerate. And, something that will > worry Harry. Lynn: It's funny, but I never even considered that Harry would be captain this year. For some reason, Angelina seems to be the logical choice for that. Though, even with all their fooling around, even one of the Weasley twins would make more sense than Harry. Nor do I think Harry would want to be captain this year but would rather one of the older kids on the team take that position. I'm not sure if he is yet comfortable to be in a position of telling the others what they have to do. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue May 6 22:51:05 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:51:05 -0000 Subject: Why Neville Ratted On Harry In-Reply-To: <20030506215233.57144.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57168 Eileen wrote (about Neville mentioning to Draco that Harry fainted when the Dementor came into his compartment): > I obviously had much too unpleasant schooldays, as I > instantly read the text as indicating that Draco had > tormented Neville into telling him. There is canon > precedent, after all, that Draco does bully Neville. I just assumed that Neville is too sensible to worry about a fainting fit, and it didn't occur to him that Harry would be embarrassed by it. David From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 22:53:17 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: <20030506224435.20549.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030506225317.94619.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57169 --- bohcoo wrote: > Harry will probably be Captain of the team, as > Wood was in his 5th > year. Therefore, as Captain, Harry would once > again be in a > superior position to Ron -- and -- to make > matters worse, also have > to tell Ron what to do. . . It is very > difficult to become a "boss" > over your friends under the best of > circumstances but to have it > happen with the long history between Harry and > Ron might be more than > Ron can tolerate. And, something that will > worry Harry. Lynn: It's funny, but I never even considered that Harry would be captain this year. For some reason, Angelina seems to be the logical choice for that. Though, even with all their fooling around, even one of the Weasley twins would make more sense than Harry. Nor do I think Harry would want to be captain this year but would rather one of the older kids on the team take that position. I'm not sure if he is yet comfortable to be in a position of telling the others what they have to do. Lynn ME: I can't buy the idea of Harry as Captain at all. I think some other considerations or responsibilities or something will keep Harry off the team entirely. If he was the "captain", then he would also still be the seeker! Just because he takes over as captain wouldn't mean he'd play Wood's old position. The seeker is still the most important position and he'd still be the best one to play it. There HAS to be another reason why Ron is seeker this year. But I'm certain of one thing. If Ron is the seeker then Harry isn't playing this year at all and of course that in itself would really tear him up. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From emeleel at juno.com Tue May 6 21:57:05 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:57:05 -0500 Subject: Why did the Potters have a Secret Keeper at all? Why not just hide? Message-ID: <20030506.165708.-494023.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57170 The standard apology if this has been covered ad nauseum, I'm fairly new here: I was thinking about the whole Potters/Secret Keeper thing. Why did they need a Secret Keeper at all? Why not just run away and hide, covering their tracks with various Unplottable spells and similar things? Then there would be nobody to betray them. (Okay, and no story either, shoot me! ) Lily grew up as a Muggle, so they should be able to blend right in no matter where they lived. I'd be interested in theories. Here's mine: I think Prof. Trelawney and the centaurs predicted that Harry would be the downfall of LV. Since the centaurs also "saw" it, DD took it seriously. Either the prediction was vague enough that they had no idea when this would take place, or else there were some specifics that would have to play out before the downfall would occur. So DD and/or the MoM would need to be able to get hold of the Potters at some point to bring Harry into the mix to bring about the downfall of LV. I'm sure they were hoping it was going to be later rather than sooner, for the sake of Harry, it just didn't work out that way. So - since DD and/or the MoM would need to be able to contact the Potters, they needed to have that one link open, the Secret Keeper. When the time came, they would be able to ask him where the Potters were hiding, and they could go get them and bring out Harry to battle LV. (Or ask the Secret Keeper to go get them.) Of course, they had no way of knowing that the Secret Keeper was going to be the big loophole in the whole thing and destroy everything they worked so hard for. And LV was fool enough to think that he could balk the prediction by going after a baby and got himself zapped for his trouble. Any other ideas? Melanie (Who hopes that Neville's parents do get better - if Harry can't have his parents back, at least one nice character deserves to be happy!) Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From pisk at inuyasha.nu Tue May 6 21:45:22 2003 From: pisk at inuyasha.nu (piskmiffo) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:45:22 -0000 Subject: REDHEAD ALWAYS: the vomit flavoured bean Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57171 As you all know, recently Cap Candy has started the marketing of their Chocolate Frogs, in which you can find the Famous Witches & Wizards cards. Today The Leaky Cauldron posted something very interesting. This quote from Cap Candy: "JK Rowling is a great partner and we work with her to ensure the accuracy of our products," said Jodi Medlock, spokeswoman for WoTC. WoTC also said they worked with JK to ensure the accuracy of both the trading card game as well as the chocolate frogs cards. Since I have an immense thirst for any things HP, I clicked the link to the page at the Restriced Section where the text on the cards can be found. And what did I find? This. Bertie Bott-Inventor Bertie Bott was born in 1935. He invented Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans quite by mistake. His original purpose was to create tasty candies from food. He accidentally included a pair of dirty socks in his experiment! Well? Let's look at what Dumbledore said in the last chapter of PS. ----------- "Ah! Bertie Bott's Every-Flavour Beans! I was unfortunate enough in my youth to come across a vomit-flavoured one, and since then I'm afraid I've rather lost my liking for them ? but I think I'll be safe with a nice toffee, don't you?" He smiled and popped the golden-brown bean into his mouth. Then he choked and said, "Alas! Earwax!" ----------- Bertie Bott, who invented his beans, was born in 1935, and Dumbledore ate a vomit flavoured one in his YOUTH? Let's work out the numbers. Bertie Bott probably didn't come up with his beans until the 1950s, or later. Dumbledore is 150 year olds in the 1990s. Unless Dumbledore considers 110 as "youth", he can't possible have eaten a bean. Now, there are at least 4, and perhaps more scenarios. 1. The young Dumbledore goes forward in time for some reason, and tastes a BBBean. 2. Someone goes back in time, with a bag of BBBeans and treats the young Dumbledore. 3. It's a mistake. I think this might be the one, really, but I will never lose hope! 4. Someone in the present goes back in time, and becomes Dumbledore... Who? RON! REDHEAD ALWAYS! YAY! Over and out /pisk From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue May 6 23:15:22 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:15:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57172 In a message dated 5/6/2003 5:55:23 PM Central Standard Time, runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com writes: > It's funny, but I never even considered that > Harry would be captain this year. For some > reason, Angelina seems to be the logical choice > for that. Though, even with all their fooling > around, even one of the Weasley twins would make > more sense than Harry. > I got the feeling that Angelina was a 7th year in GoF. . .and I can't really see Fred or George wanting the position. . .too much responsibilty. > Nor do I think Harry would want to be captain > this year but would rather one of the older kids > on the team take that position. I'm not sure if > he is yet comfortable to be in a position of > telling the others what they have to do. > Oh he'd probably rather it as well all right but I think it shall be thrust upon him. I also lean towards him being a prefect. But we shall see soon enough. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue May 6 23:23:14 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:23:14 -0000 Subject: Why did the Potters have a Secret Keeper at all? Why not just hide? In-Reply-To: <20030506.165708.-494023.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57173 Melanie L Ellis wrote: I was thinking about the whole Potters/Secret Keeper thing. Why did they need a Secret Keeper at all? Why not just run away and hide, covering their tracks with various Unplottable spells and similar things? Then there would be nobody to betray them. (Okay, and no story either, shoot me! ) Lily grew up as a Muggle, so they should be able to blend right in no matter where they lived. I'd be interested in theories. Here's mine: I think Prof. Trelawney and the centaurs predicted that Harry would be the downfall of LV. Since the centaurs also "saw" it, DD took it seriously. Either the prediction was vague enough that they had no idea when this would take place, or else there were some specifics that would have to play out before the downfall would occur. So DD and/or the MoM would need to be able to get hold of the Potters at some point to bring Harry into the mix to bring about the downfall of LV. Me: While it is highly likely that Voldemort suspected that Harry would be a problem for him and that's why he went after him while he was a helpless baby (like many figures in fairy tales/mythology who have done the same thing) it seems far less likely that the Ministry or even Dumbledore had some sort of plan for Harry to actively defeat Voldemort at some point. Many people in the wizarding world, like McGonagall (a very respected professor) seem to place relatively little faith in Divination. Melanie L Ellis wrote: So - since DD and/or the MoM would need to be able to contact the Potters, they needed to have that one link open, the Secret Keeper. When the time came, they would be able to ask him where the Potters were hiding, and they could go get them and bring out Harry to battle LV. (Or ask the Secret Keeper to go get them.) Me: While I agree that the Secret Keeper would be a way of tracking down people in hiding, again, I don't think Harry was considered by the MoM to be a 'tool' for bringing about Voldemort's fall. If there was no Secret Keeper, it would be in essence like someone going into the witness protection program and the government employee who knew where the witness was located dying on the very day all of his office records are destroyed in a fire--that witness would, in effect, be lost forever unless he made an effort to contact anyone he used to know. Which would make it possible for people to want to hurt the witness to find him. The Secret Keeper would probably usually also function as a link between someone in hiding and the wizarding world. The Potters probably wouldn't have wanted to lose touch with that world completely. Aside: Is it possible that post owls would be affected by the Fidelius Charm, and any post that was supposed to go to people protected by the charm would go to the Secret Keeper instead? I just thought of that. Melanie L Ellis wrote: Of course, they had no way of knowing that the Secret Keeper was going to be the big loophole in the whole thing and destroy everything they worked so hard for. And LV was fool enough to think that he could balk the prediction by going after a baby and got himself zapped for his trouble. Me: Well, he obviously read the Evil Overlord Handbook that says, "When a Seer tells you that a little baby will be responsible for your fall, you must immediately attempt to kill him/her, even though it is likely to bring about your own death and/or someone will just save the baby anyway and raise him/her in a safe, hidden environment until he/she is old enough to kick your Evil Overlord arse, if you are still around." If he didn't do it, he wouldn't qualify as an EO, after all. --Barb http://group.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From errolowl at yahoo.com Tue May 6 23:25:11 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:25:11 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Bang + Angst = Bangst? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57174 Yet another unauthorized spoiler tornado swept across Theory Bay, and I hurried to what was becoming my usual place of shelter. The Royal George was a solid building, I'll have to give you that. And I could hear the usual voices from within even over the thunder. --and that was strange, `cause there was surprisingly no one in the tavern save Avery. At least no one that I could see-- "Say George, where's all the yelling coming from? Avery hasn't finally flipped and turned ventriloquist, er, has he?" "Oh, no..thats just all the usual sailors you can hear Dicentra, can't you.." "Well, I can hear them..." "Ah, Don't worry, they're just in the next dimension you know, trying to talk to the general populace on the list oops, I wouldn't choose that bar stool if I were you ... the captain is sitting there.... Would you like a Margarita this time?" "She is? Er, yeah...a margarita sounds fine -- but George, do they do this often? Be here, yet *not* be here?" "Well, they do take the odd notion sometimes cause most listees don't venture into TBAY you know." George leant across the bar to whisper " But it's tough on customers... I have people come in and try to sit on the same seats occupied by the sailors, and then they get a terrific fright when someone drops in from the other dimension to refill their drink. Just yesterday I had to send a wee little greek chapie to St Mungos...he was squashed flat too.. really bad for business" I took my drink and carefully chose a seat away from the disembodied voices. I could hear Captain Cindy growling: "Hmmm. But there are lots of examples of Bang without Angst, which shows JKR might not be a "Bangsta" after all. In the Shrieking Shack, Lupin and Sirius almost execute Pettigrew, to the point of raising their wands and saying goodbye. They seem not the least bit troubled by this. Harry throws a badge and hits Ron in the forehead, but doesn't seem the least bit remorseful or angst- ridden." Dicentra interupts "Well Cindy, that's because now we're running into Real Wizards Don't Apologize territory, which you yourself staked out with your own flag Back In The Day, March 14, 2002, Message 36556." A weird creaky recording of the Captain's voice fills the room "Sirius never apologizes to Snape, Ron, or Lupin. Snape never apologizes to Harry, Lupin, or Sirius. Ron never apologizes to Harry for being a prat in GoF or paying off a debt with vanishing gold; Harry never apologizes to Ron for bopping him in the head with a badge. Lupin never apologizes to Dumbledore for the werewolf adventures or for his hideous errors in judgment throughout PoA. McGonagall doesn't apologize for letting Crouch Jr.'s soul get away from her. Don't even get me started on Hagrid." Dicentra switches off the tale and says smugly "So if there's no apology, it's because there's no angst to begin with. Can't have one without the other." I looked at George. "Er, can they hear me if I yell from here?" Getting a shrug in reply, I cleared my throat and gave it a shot. " Umm, Why not have one without the other?" a sudden silence. I rushed on. " I thought the real-wizards-don't-apologize was a verbal expression thingy. Did I miss that part of the theory which said that if they don't say it, they don't feel it? Ron never apologizes to Harry for the leprechaun gold..but he feels it bad enough to make an issue of it doesn't he? Oh, there's angst aplenty." More silence. "Oh well," I said conversationally "What's this "Bangst" anyway?" With a small Pop, Jo appeared on a nearby barstool. " oh, that started with me wondering if Bang + Angst = Bangst." "Oh! I see. But, but you know.... I always thought that the "an" in the midst of BANG already *did* stand for angst. Angst is a core element for something to bang -- I thought it was bANg, see?" "WHAT?!" Bellowed a voice. "That's not the definition. Consider the definition of "Big Bang": >"Indeed, Big Bangers have a rather rigid bright line test to assist >us in determining which theories are acceptable. If we can't >imagine a climactic, Oscar-worthy scene in which a character >chooses a dramatically different path because of a Big Event, then >the theory won't fly under Big Bang." So Big Bang encompasses the idea that JKR prefers the highly dramatic and even melodramatic scene to the more sedate alternatives. But what role does "angst" play in Big Bang?" "Ah Captain..melodramatic you say? Maybe dread, anxiety and worry? Heart searching and choosing dramatically different paths, eh? Sounds suspiciously like symptoms of Angst to me! Besides Oscar worthy climatic scenes mandate a level of angst, a level of viewer involvement and horror ? mere special effects and stage settings will never do" Cindy apparently ignores all of this as she mutters "Well,"Angst" has Edge, no doubt about it. But can angst be Bangy in the traditional way? I'm not sure. People do a lot of biting their lower lips and weeping when they are suffering overwhelming angst. Weeping does *not* Bang. Punching out a window Bangs." " No, Angst is not necessarily bangy of itself. It's just a crucial component of other Bangs. And expressing angst through weeping is the most pathetic Hagridesque way of dealing with it. No, real wizards don't weep either ? they get fighting mad. Plenty of shattered windows to go around Cap'in. Just look at Sirius with all his angst. Does he huddle in Azkaban and weep? Bite his lower lip in worry for Harry? No, he dramatically *escapes*, causes a man hunt, and provides a book worth of plot. Isn't that bangy? Look at all your favourite bangs. *Someone* has to have angst involved, even if it's just the reader. The shrieking shrack? Sirius and Lupin? Didn't Harry have enough emotional turmoil there to jump in front of Peter? And harry's angst is way more bangy than any other characters since we get it first hand. Why does Norbert-fries-Hagrid count as bangy? Isn't it because of that sickening moment of realization from Harry? And if the lead up to that is Hagrid jumping in front of Harry to save *him*, we have angst from Hagrid + a double dose from Harry. Isn't it delightful? without all this, the climatic scene would just be staged Dragon special effects - not so Oscar worthy. See Pippin agrees with me..., Don't you Pippin?" Pippin "Ohhhh, JKR *loves* bangst. Examples: Seeing Voldemort kill the spare right in front of you --Bang! Thinking it was your fault because you made him take the cup with you--Angst! You find out your pal is a traitor when you discover the murdered bodies of your best friend and his wife -- Bang! You realize he couldn't have done it if it weren't for your clever idea --Angst!" See? Even the Throw-a-badge-at-Ron scene (oh, does that rate a Bang?) is impressive for its underlying angst. Without that, Harry chucks the Badge, Ron throws back a chocolate frog, and they start a pillow fight. Yawn. George, A refill if you please.. Errol From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue May 6 23:32:41 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:32:41 -0000 Subject: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: <20030506225317.94619.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57175 Becky Walkden: I can't buy the idea of Harry as Captain at all. I think some other considerations or responsibilities or something will keep Harry off the team entirely. If he was the "captain", then he would also still be the seeker! Just because he takes over as captain wouldn't mean he'd play Wood's old position. The seeker is still the most important position and he'd still be the best one to play it. There HAS to be another reason why Ron is seeker this year. But I'm certain of one thing. If Ron is the seeker then Harry isn't playing this year at all and of course that in itself would really tear him up. Huggs Becky Bill: Actually, Ron will be KEEPER, not seeker. Harry is still Seeker in OotP Bill From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue May 6 23:33:24 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:33:24 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ron, Concerns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57176 As much as I don't want Harry to become Captain, I have to admit that it's the only thing that'll make sense. Consider, what's the use of Angelina, Fred, or George becoming Captain for just one year, when someone, most likely Harry, will have to take over the next year anyway? Although, it would make sense for Harry to be co-captain with someone, so that he could learn all the techniques, and be fully prepared to captain in his sixth year. Who knows, maybe *he*, at least, will realize the benefits of having a reserve team, especially a reserve Seeker. Maria From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 22:49:54 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:49:54 -0000 Subject: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: <20030506224435.20549.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57177 > Lynn: > I'm not sure if (Harry) is yet comfortable to be in a position of > telling the others what they have to do. Well, I should hope he gets used to it soon. While I agree that he is not the most likely candidate for quidditch team captain, and applaud the thought of Angelina stepping in for that role, Harry is likely to lead a coalition of many advanced wizards against Voldemort. He is a symbol of their potential to overthrow an otherwise overwhelming dark lord, and he needs to begin to be comfortable in a position of authority. Knowing Harry, he never will be very used to it, but I feel that Dumbledore will start to put him in positions where he does have increased powers. Or at least, I think he should. Becky From luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 23:41:42 2003 From: luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com (luv_lotr2) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:41:42 -0000 Subject: The Arts at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57178 Does it see odd to anyone else, but me, that Hogwarts is lacking in the arts? No music, literature or artistry hardly at all! The sorting hat does "sing" his little tune at sorting time, and we do see art on the walls, but other than that, there is little else that the students are encouraged to do. I would think at least one of the houses..Hufflepuff possibly, would want their students to learn music, art or literature. But then again...maybe it's not relevant to a "wizardring world"? The "other" Mrs. Weasley From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 00:04:03 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507000403.59762.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57179 Bill: Actually, Ron will be KEEPER, not seeker. Harry is still Seeker in OotP Bill ME: OOPS! My bad. For some reason I thought I had read Ron will be SEEKER! Meaning Harry won't be able to play. Well, that changes everything! Or as Rosanne Rosanandana used to say in the origional Saturday Night Live show, "Never mind!" Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed May 7 00:58:17 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:58:17 +0000 Subject: (FILK) It's A Rumor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57180 It's A Rumor (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I'm A Looser_ by the Beatles Dedicated to Amy Z. Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle06.html It's a rumor It's a rumor And it is something that is not true Of all the theories we have on this site There once was one we found out was not right We all had heard that a fan's going to die Never questioned that it might be a lie It's a rumor And we thought it was another clue It's a rumor But it is something that is not true When someone asked, "Where can we find this quote?"* No one could find anything Jo had wrote Nor interviews in which she might have said That Harry's fan, in Book Five, would be dead It's a rumor And we thought it was another clue It's a rumor But it is something that is not true You can't believe everything that you read So this advice everybody should heed All of us must check our sources, my friends Then hopefully it won't happen again It's a rumor And we thought it was another clue It's a rumor But it is something that is not true *( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52809 ) -Gail B....who is wondering if her grammar in this filk is correct, but it's too late now. It rhymes. To heck with the Grammar Patrol...j/k ;)> _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jmmears at comcast.net Wed May 7 01:12:47 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 01:12:47 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Bang + Angst = Bangst? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57181 Jo blinked several times hard and looked around slowly. "Hey, wait a minute....where *am* I? The last thing I remember was last night when I was having some morbid fun with Dead!Hagrid scenarios. Then everything started to get all blurry and swirly and now I'm in a *bar*?" A rather nice-looking young man wipes down the polished mahogany in front of Jo, flashes a winning smile and asks "What'll it be, sailor?" Jo gasped, "Sailor??? I'm sorry but you must have me confused with someone..." she trailed off as a spasm of horror swept over her face. "No...no, it can't be," she breathed. "Please tell me this *isn't* the, the, *Royal George*," she gasped. "That's right, sweetheart", George replied with a wink. "Now, what can I get you? How about a Mai Tai?' Jo shuddered, slid off the stool and backed away slowly. "YOU", she cried spotting Errol enjoying a frozen Margarita. "You brought me here. I was on the main list, minding my own business and now ... and now," she clutched Errol's collar with both hands, "You've *got* to get me out of here, NOW!" "Take it easy, you're frightening Avery over there. You are also putting some serious wrinkles in my fine Egyptian cotton." Errol pried her trembling fingers off the collar, and took another sip. "What's the big deal, anyway?" "You don't understand -- I don't *do* TBAY. I dabble around on the main list, throwing out the odd comment, defending Ron, avoiding ships, and generally trying to stay out of trouble. TBAY isn't for the likes of me. It's full of people like Eileen, and Pippin, and The Elkins -- clever people, who can write *dialogue*, brave folks who aren't afraid to take on ..." she gulped and then whispered, "The Captain." "Who? you mean Captain Cindy? But you've talked to her on the main list. What's the difference?" Errol shrugged. "Well, for one thing, she carries a huge paddle in here", Jo hissed. "Anyway, by the time I came to, loads of people like Pippin, and Naama, and Maria, have all added loads of swell ideas to my little 'Bangst' theory. I think they've all helped to establish that Bangst is perfectly compatable with Big Bangs and even helps to amplify the 'Banging', if I may be so bold." Jo had relaxed slightly when suddenly she looked up sharply... "What's that? That voice...vaguely familiar... is that ...?" Errol and George exchanged a glance and George said, "as I just explained to Errol, that's just the usual TBAY sailors. They're here, of course, but you can't see them while they're chatting in that *other* dimension. They'll be dropping in for a refill any time now." Jo becomes noticibly pale again. "It's not that I don't appreciate your helping explain to Cindy why angst and Bangs work together. When you said: " Besides Oscar > worthy climatic scenes mandate a level of angst, a level of viewer > involvement and horror ? mere special effects and stage settings > will never do" > > " No, Angst is not necessarily bangy of itself. It's just a > crucial component of other Bangs. And expressing angst through > weeping is the most pathetic Hagridesque way of dealing with it. No, > real wizards don't weep either ? they get fighting mad. > Plenty of shattered windows to go around Cap'in. Just look at > Sirius with all his angst. Does he huddle in Azkaban and weep? Bite > his lower lip in worry for Harry? No, he dramatically *escapes*, > causes a man hunt, and provides a book worth of plot. Isn't that > bangy? > > Look at all your favourite bangs. *Someone* has to have angst > involved, even if it's just the reader. The shrieking shrack? > Sirius and Lupin? Didn't Harry have enough emotional turmoil > there to jump in front of Peter? And harry's angst is way more > bangy than any other characters since we get it first hand. > > Why does Norbert-fries-Hagrid count as bangy? Isn't it because of > that sickening moment of realization from Harry? And if the lead up > to that is Hagrid jumping in front of Harry to save *him*, we have > angst from Hagrid + a double dose from Harry. Isn't it > delightful? without all this, the climatic scene would just be staged > Dragon special effects - not so Oscar worthy. "And then Pippin nailed the concept of Bangst perfectly when she said: "Ohhhh, JKR *loves* bangst. Examples: > > Seeing Voldemort kill the spare right in front of you --Bang! > Thinking it was your fault because you made him take the cup > with you--Angst! > > You find out your pal is a traitor when you discover the murdered > bodies of your best friend and his wife -- Bang! > You realize he couldn't have done it if it weren't for your clever > idea --Angst!" "There's simply nothing left for me to say by now -- You've all grasped the Bangst idea and amplified it for me. Why do *I* have to be here with the canon hurricane only six weeks away, and that Captain and her paddle, and those scary FEATHERBOAS people ready to appear at any moment. I was just kidding around ... I didn't mean to come in here, I don't *belong* here ..." Jo whimpered as she reached behind the bar and snagged a fifth of Jack Black. George raised an elegant eyebrow, and began to set up a tab for Jo S. Jo took a deep swig, shuddered as the disembodied voices rose again, and backed into the corner behind Avery, who cast a worried glance at her, and moved his chair ever so slightly away. "There's no place like home, there's no place like home...." she whispered desperately, eyes shut tightly. "Auntie Em...?" "Elkins?......anyone...?" From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Wed May 7 01:18:52 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:18:52 EDT Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... Message-ID: <5f.39201397.2be9b8fc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57182 In a message dated 5/5/03 8:00:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > Show me a case where a Slyth has done something decent and I don't > count standing for Cedric. > > The entire school stood up, almost reflexively, BEFORE they found out > Voldemort was behind it, at which point Draco and many others started > showing their true colors. > > I wonder how many would have stood had Dumbledore started > with "Voldemort is back and he killed Cedric Diggory."? > > Besides, as I say in another post, so long as the Slyths follow > Draco, and fail to rein him in, they ARE tainted in some ways. > > So far, Snape is the exception and Draco is the rule. When that is > overturned by future canon, I'll reconsider. > > Darrin > -- Rather invite a werewolf to dinner than a Slytherin I hate to bring up this argument again, but seeing as how we played the "Attack Snape" game, I will. If you were a Slytherin and you saw the Headmaster openly supporting Gryffindor over you, what would you do? I might just be a bad person, but I would say "Screw it. I'm gonna do exactly what they think I will. There's no way to change their point of view." HRH *always* assume it's a Slytherin. Slytherin is kinda the Red Herring (Scooby Doo anyone? :) ) And all of you listies who clearly say there are no good Slytherins show that that stereotype exists. How can they show themselves if you won't give them a chance? And there I go talking about HP like it's really real again.... ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --On her way to the nuthouse.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed May 7 01:30:53 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 01:30:53 -0000 Subject: LV's mudblood ancestry In-Reply-To: <20030506015829.70741.qmail@web13113.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57183 Odile wrote: Hi Everyone, I'm new to the Group {{waves}} and really glad to have joined. I (Tom) reply: Hi there, nice to have you! Odile wrote: The motivation of Tom Riddle/Voldemort is something that intrigues me as well. But I am having a really hard time with that of Lucius Malfoy and the other Death Eaters: if Mudbloods (and all those they consider inferior to them) are so repulsive to them, then why are they devoted to someone with this background? I was thinking that maybe they are just not aware that LV is/was really Tom Riddle, son of a Muggle, END QUOTE. I (Tom) reply: I love a really realistic villain, especially one who's deeply scarred, yet still as compromised morally as Voldemort is. IMHO, it's not clear that the Death Eaters are aware that Voldemort is half-blooded. First, Dumbledore tells us in CoS Ch.18 that "Very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle." So, it's possible (however unlikely) that none of the Death Eaters really know about this. Second, after checking GoF Ch.33 (the graveyard scene) again, I realized that Voldemort never tells the Death Eater circle that he's a half-blood. He told Harry in the last chapter, and Wormtail was around, so I guess we could say that Wormtail probably knows (if he was paying attention while he was moaning and writhing in pain on the ground,) but it's unclear that the circle as a whole knows. Voldemort, after all, doesn't actually tell them his father's *name* in this scene - all he says is that his father is buried in te graveyard. So, although the "purebloods" seem to be the ones following Voldemort, we don't really have *too* much to suggest that his ultimate driving force (or theirs) is the elimination of muggleborns. Patricia wrote: All of which, I think, demonstrates that the Voldemort Wars are not really a conflict of ideas, however much LV would like us to believe that's the case. It's fundamentally about personal advancement and weilding power over others. Any idealistic component is and will always be secondary to that goal. I agree that the acquisition of power is a major theme on Voldemort's agenda. In PS/SS, Quirrell tells Harry that Voldemort taught him that "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it..." Although, to contract a little with Patricia, I do think that ideas are involved in this war to some degree, but, I think it applies more to Dumbledore than Voldemort: IMHO, Dumbledore is working within the constraints of ideologies at all turns: Dumbledore endorses muggle-protection and international magical cooperation; Dumbledore won't use Dark Magic, although he can; Dumbledore generally prefers the truth to lies; and, well, on top of all this, Dumbledore is just a more moral guy anyways, and one who probably wouldn't accept other moral compromises like killing and, say, using the Unforgivable on victims. Anyways, another possible goal of the Death Eaters - in GoF, Voldemort says "You know my goal ? to conquer death." And in CoS, it's interesting that Diary!Riddle tells Harry "that killing Mudbloods doesn't matter to me anymore? For many months now, my new target has been - *you.*" So, Voldemort seems to have many goals, and any of these Death Eaters could be in it primarily for the "prestige," the power, the influence, or even the quest for immortality itself. I personally think that many of `em are there because they're too afraid that he'll win and in the end they'll be on the wrong side. As for the muggle killings before, which indicate that Voldemort still has animosity towards non-magic users, it seems to me that these killings were occurring during a similar death campaign on magical families that were threats to Voldemort's rise to power. I see the Weasleys like this ? even though they're pure-blood, they're still dangerous to the Dark cause. So, in that sense, I think that the muggle killings are coordinated to create an atmosphere of insecurity and chaos, not necessarily a preconceived plan for genocide, ala the Nazis. On security, McGonagall does say, in PS/SS Ch.1, that "A fine thing it would be if, on the very day You-Know-Who seems to have disappeared at last, the Muggles found out about us all." So, as far as entities like the MoM are concerned, I'd bet that Voldemort's rise to power was considered to be not only an internal disaster, but also a serious security compromise. We see from GoF, during the chapters before and after the Quidditch World Cup, that the MoM takes anti-Muggle security very seriously, and that's why there's a whole division like the "Accidental Magic Reversal Squad," of which a part are the "Obliviators," whose job it is to perform memory charms which maintain the privacy of the WW. They must've been really busy during the last Voldemort war. Odile wrote: but surely Lucius knew because he had Tom's diary in his possession in CoS. I (Tom) reply: I'd be inclined to agree with you, except that recently, I realized something about the memory of Tom Riddle that we see in the diary. Riddle never mentions Malfoy. All he talks about is Ginny, and later how he wanted to meet Harry. So I guess, technically, we don't know that Malfoy and Diary!Riddle were ever in contact with each other. To be fair, Dumbledore seems to think so, because he says: "Oh, no one will be able to do that... Not now that Riddle has vanished from the book." (CoS, Ch.18) But as far as I know, we haven't seen any indication that they were, say, planning together or anything. So, in other words, it's possible that Lucius never communicated with Diary!Riddle, and so the reason I brought all that up at all is that because of this, Lucius might not know about Riddle's past from that book, as Harry does. Odile wrote: And I wish I could find the reference in the canon (sorry) but I recall reading that some of Tom Riddle's friends started calling him "Lord Voldemort" while he was still a student at Hogwarts - surely his fellow students would have known his background, that when not in school he had to stay at a Muggle orphanage? Tom replies: Well, Diary!Riddle says to Harry in CoS Ch. 18: "[Lord Voldemort] was a name that I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course. You think I was going tyo use my filthy Muggle father's name forever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out my mother was a witch? No, Harry ? I fashioned myself a new name, a name I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in the world!" Boy, that guy has issues. Anyways, I guess that he probably really did keep the name quiet, as he says: with his "most intimate friends." As for everyone else knowing he was a half-blood, well, I guess they would know that he was a half-blood, but not that he became Lord Voldemort. Diary! Riddle suggests that, at least, Headmaster Dippet knew he was half- blood. And again, Dumbledore apparently knows, since he talks about how few people actually know that Voldemort and Tom Riddle are one and the same. So, if the name itself was kept a closely-guarded secret, and very few people can connect the name with Tom Riddle, then, in a sense, the reasoning must be this: Although many people would know that Tom Riddle was a half-blood, many people wouldn't know that Riddle was Voldemort, and so it's possible that only a very few, select people know that Voldemort is himself a half-blood. I guess that sort of does parallel the Hitler stuff that's being discussed alongside all this. After all, whatever secrets Hitler kept (and I've heard both that he was Jewish, and also that he had a sustained fling with a male officer,) these items were certainly not common knowledge during his rise to and hold on power. And so it seems, neither are Voldemort's. -Tom From meboriqua at aol.com Wed May 7 01:35:17 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 01:35:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karmakaze_kk" wrote: > Harry may not think all rules are pointless, but he does seem to think they don't apply to him. Sneaking out to stop Quirrell, while heroic, was against all sort of rules. (And, I should point out, put the stone in far more jeapardy than if he had simply stayed in the dorms as instructed.)> You mean, Harry put the stone in more jeopardy than if he had allowed Voldemort to possibly get his body back and the stone to boot, thus achieving immortality? > He works with Hermione to create a polyjuice potion (which they are not allowed to make) using a book from the library (which they were not allowed to have) to infiltrate Sytherine House (where they are not allowed to go), after drugging two members of Sytherin (which has to be some kind of assault). And that was a stunt that didn't even pan out.> How did it not pan out? The Trio wanted to find out if Draco was involved with what was going on and they did. The only one who really suffered there was Hermione, who became Cat Girl for a while. > Harry always thinks he has the best and most urgent reasons to break the rules, but he does break them left and right. It's an attitude that says "I think I know what is important better than the people who make the rules", which qualifies as "disregard" for me.> I agree with you that Harry does indeed have a disregard for rules, but I have to support him in his breaking them. Harry is a part of something that the other students (and staff members too, for the most part) don't have to deal with. Someone is always after Harry, whether it is Voldemort himself, Dementors, the media, or annoying students. He is "Famous Harry Potter" and he always will be. It is quite a cross to bear, especially for a kid who wants nothing more than to fit in, have friends and a family of his own. Even Harry knows he has a knack for attracting trouble - it's out of his hands. I also believe that Harry is possibly the most powerful wizard of all the students at Hogwarts. I am not saying that I want to see Harry continue to break rules as he pleases, but I do think that Harry can handle what other students cannot. Hogwarts has rules just like all schools and those rules make sense. In Harry's position, though, sometimes those rules must be pushed aside. I am suddenly thinking of Harry as the Buffy of Hogwarts, but that could be because I just watched the third to last episode and found it as disturbing as it was last week. --jenny from ravenclaw ************* From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Wed May 7 01:40:49 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 01:40:49 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: <5f.39201397.2be9b8fc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57185 Yeah - Slytherins have feelings, too. ;-) The stereotypes don't bother me so much because they exist, but because the author doesn't really try to balance them out or anything. See Pansy Parksinson, after Draco gets injured by that great ugly brute Buckbeak. "How is it, Draco?" simpered Pansy Parkinson. "Does it hurt much?" (PoA, Ch.7) She *simpered?* The Trio are always visiting each other in the hospital wing when one or the other is injured. I betcha the Slytherins think that they 'simper' about the same way the author portrays Pansy as 'simpering.' Of course, hard to tell if this is just to illustrate what HHR perceive, or if, Pansy was *actually* simpering, but anyways, you get my meaning. ;-) -Tom From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 03:11:36 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 03:11:36 -0000 Subject: CoS Clue = Spiritualism in HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57186 I wanted to make sure I wasn't movie contaminated and praise the Lord I'm not! JKR said that CoS is full of clues, we seem to look for physical clues and actions as signs for foreshadowing, but what about actual words: P.225 CoS - The Polyjuice Potion Paperback US edition: "Saint Potter, the Mudbloods' friend," said Malfoy slowly. "He's another one with no proper wizard feeling, or he wouldn't go around with that jumped up Granger Mudblood. And people think *he's* Slytherin's heir!" (emphasis by JKR) Sounds a bit reminiscent of Jesus, no? I bet he is Slytherin's heir! Boy would that be just about as a good a smack on the face as Hermione's! =D Greicy From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 7 03:20:47 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 03:20:47 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: <5f.39201397.2be9b8fc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57187 I (Darrin) wrote: > > Show me a case where a Slyth has done something decent and I don't > > count standing for Cedric. > > > > The entire school stood up, almost reflexively, BEFORE they found out > > Voldemort was behind it, at which point Draco and many others started > > showing their true colors. > > > > I wonder how many would have stood had Dumbledore started > > with "Voldemort is back and he killed Cedric Diggory."? > > > > Besides, as I say in another post, so long as the Slyths follow > > Draco, and fail to rein him in, they ARE tainted in some ways. > > > > So far, Snape is the exception and Draco is the rule. When that is > > overturned by future canon, I'll reconsider. > > > > Darrin > > -- Rather invite a werewolf to dinner than a Slytherin > Oryomai wrote" > I hate to bring up this argument again, but seeing as how we played the > "Attack Snape" game, I will. If you were a Slytherin and you saw the > Headmaster openly supporting Gryffindor over you, what would you do? I might > just be a bad person, but I would say "Screw it. I'm gonna do exactly what > they think I will. There's no way to change their point of view." HRH > *always* assume it's a Slytherin. Slytherin is kinda the Red Herring (Scooby > Doo anyone? :) ) And all of you listies who clearly say there are no good > Slytherins show that that stereotype exists. How can they show themselves if > you won't give them a chance? And there I go talking about HP like it's > really real again.... > Now me: Funny, I didn't see an example of a good Slytherin deed in that. Just a justification that because the Headmaster actually decided that bravery, honor, intelligence and self-sacrifice (Please, tell me that Draco would have sacrificed himself on the chess board for anyone -- I had a tooth pulled today and I need a laugh) was worth something more than skulking about, using trickery to cost another house points, it's OK to be nasty. And when have I ever said I won't give Slytherin a chance? I have repeatedly said that canon SO FAR has not given us a decent Slytherin. I refuse to call them something other than nasty little brats, based on the facts so far. We might very well get that decent Slyth, or even more than one, in the next three books. If so, I'll change my tune. But not until then. The closest we've come is Snape, who has apparently committed to the side of the angels and he also apparently believes that justifies him making life miserable for HRH. As an aside, am I the only one who still thinks it's possible he could double-cross D-Dore and go to V-Mort? Someone that will turn for you will turn against you, you know. Tom wrote about the difference between Pansy "simpering" and the Trio visiting each other. I looked up the word "simper" and the AOL dictionary has it as "to smile in a silly manner." That is just a weird word choice there. I'm not sure why you would smile in a silly manner when you're trying to show concern over an "injury." Anyway, that is an odd way to put it. As for the Ron as Keeper concerns: My guess is that, at least for the first game, Ron is going to really suck as a Keeper, maybe even costing them the game. If Harry is captain, he'll be under pressure to replace Ron. Darrin -- Anxiously waiting the decent Slytherin, but my empty tooth socket hurts and I'm going to bed. From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 03:23:20 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 03:23:20 -0000 Subject: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: <20030506224435.20549.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57188 > Lynn: > > It's funny, but I never even considered that > Harry would be captain this year. For some > reason, Angelina seems to be the logical choice > for that. Though, even with all their fooling > around, even one of the Weasley twins would make > more sense than Harry. > > Nor do I think Harry would want to be captain > this year but would rather one of the older kids > on the team take that position. I'm not sure if > he is yet comfortable to be in a position of > telling the others what they have to do. Angelina is the logical choice, but she's in her 7th year as well as Fred and George and I've always had the impression that Alicia and Katie are, too. I do see it as rather useless to have them as captain for a year, but as Maria said it would be okay to have him as co-captain, if anything. Melissa wrote: >Oh he'd probably rather it as well all right but I think it shall be >thrust upon him. I also lean towards him being a prefect. But we >shall see soon enough. I see it this way, too, making him take responsibility. It seems as though Harry is the one making the decisions in regards to Voldemort even with Dumbledore and clique around. Everything is up to Harry. Becky said it best here though: >He is a symbol of their potential to overthrow an >otherwise overwhelming dark lord, and he needs to begin to be >comfortable in a position of authority. Knowing Harry, he never will >be very used to it, but I feel that Dumbledore will start to put him >in positions where he does have increased powers. Or at least, I >think he should. Greicy From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed May 7 03:27:12 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:27:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Modified JKR Quote? Message-ID: <120.210185af.2be9d710@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57189 In a message dated 5/6/2003 10:44:39 AM Central Standard Time, hp at plum.cream.org writes: > It's absolutely, definitely not only "a" tabloid publication, but is > generally accepted as the very definition of the word in British > publishing. IOW, you can't get lower than the Sun A quick question. IS it me or does it seem slightly suspicious that this guy would call a tabloid. He obviously knew that what he found was important why not call the police. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Wed May 7 03:38:39 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57190 On Tue, 6 May 2003, maria_kirilenko wrote: > As much as I don't want Harry to become Captain, I have to admit that > it's the only thing that'll make sense. Consider, what's the use of > Angelina, Fred, or George becoming Captain for just one year, when > someone, most likely Harry, will have to take over the next year > anyway? Angelina, Fred and George all have more experience with Quidditch than Harry. Therefore they are more likely to lead the team to victory in the Quidditch Cup. While it may only be one year, each Cup victory is important. Look how happy Wood (and the rest of the Gryffindor team) was to win the Cup just one time in his entire time at Hogwarts. Don't underestimate the importance of "just one year" in sports. > Although, it would make sense for Harry to be co-captain with > someone, so that he could learn all the techniques, and be fully > prepared to captain in his sixth year. Harry could well be mentored by the new captain without being "co-captain." Co-captain would imply that he has an equal amount of authority over the team. That wouldn't be good for the team if he doesn't have the knowledge and experience to use it well, and he doesn't need actual authority to learn loads more about strategy than he knows now. > Who knows, maybe *he*, at least, will realize the benefits of having > a reserve team, especially a reserve Seeker. Well, I hope *somebody* realizes it. I can accept that they were short-handed one year (PS/SS), but surely by now they ought to have been able to find *one* other Gryffindor with sharp eyes who can ride a broom. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed May 7 03:45:58 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:45:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Ron, Concerns Message-ID: <54.10ae2575.2be9db76@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57191 In a message dated 5/6/2003 10:39:50 PM Central Standard Time, patricia at obscure.org writes: > Angelina, Fred and George all have more experience with Quidditch than > Harry. Therefore they are more likely to lead the team to victory in the > Quidditch Cup. While it may only be one year, each Cup victory is > important. Look how happy Wood (and the rest of the Gryffindor team) was > to win the Cup just one time in his entire time at Hogwarts. Don't > underestimate the importance of "just one year" in sports. > > Yes.The trouble is I can't see Fred or George seriously wanting the position. And we don't know what year Katie, Alicia or Angelina are in. They may have left school at the end of the previous term. Also Harry has never failed to win them a game (the Dementor's appaearing at the game being the sole exception) that could play on their minds when choosing the new captain. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Wed May 7 04:08:18 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 04:08:18 -0000 Subject: Bang + Angst = Bangst ? (WAS Re: You Guys *Want* Hagrid To Die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > > Not as good an example, but how about the chess game in CoS? Ron > apparently sacrifices himself -- bang! But he wouldn't have been > there had Harry not brought him along -- angst! > > Or maybe how Ginny was close to feeling when she realized that Harry > had Riddle's book, though that was probably more like angst! bang! > Good luck coming up with a short form for that. Ang-Bang, anyone? Err...maybe not. Thanks for playing I do think that the Bang must always precede the angst for true *Bangst* to occur. The Ron sacrifice isn't a bad example for SS/PS eleven-year-old Bangst, but the higher stakes in the later books are much more Bangst-rich IMHO. Jo Serenadust, who really must get to bed before any more naughty puns occur From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed May 7 04:58:57 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:58:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand Contents Message-ID: <1e7.8678b41.2be9ec91@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57193 In a message dated 5/6/2003 12:17:37 PM Central Standard Time, patgruenke at cloudnet.com writes: > Pat-- whose six year old shouts "Alohamora!" every time we go through > motion-activated doors.... > > ROFLOL . . .my 6 year old does the same thing. . I confess to thinking it upon occassion Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 01:52:21 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 01:52:21 -0000 Subject: Got Quidditch? (Was: Harry, Ron, Concerns) In-Reply-To: <20030507000403.59762.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57194 I have another thought on the subject. What if they don't have Quidditch for a second year in a row? It wouldn't be unheard of for JKR to skip things twice: Harry missed the sorting two years in a row. (I think she was being lazy and didn't want to think of names. Personal opinion.) And it IS dangerous, as we've seen. (Quirrel in book one uses his dark magic to try to get the broom to buck Harry off, in the third book the demetors walk into the stadium and have a "feast" on the emotions there.) So it wouldn't be impossible, IMHO, for Dumbledore, or Fudge, to pull the plug on the sport for the safety of the students. Becky... who is trying to think of a good way to distinguish herself from the other Becky's. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed May 7 02:42:24 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 02:42:24 -0000 Subject: FILK: Nobody Mentions My Name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57195 This is a filk of the song "My Name" from the Lionel Bart musical "Oliver!", titled "Nobody Mentions My Name". Words meant to be italicized are enclosed within asterisks. This filk is dedicated to Caius Marcus, for an unprecedented-- but completely deserved-- two-times-in-a-row. Nobody Mentions My Name SCENE: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is giving a pep talk to his Death Eaters. LORD VOLDEMORT: Wizards are afraid to say it! Though they hasten to obey it! They will die if they betray it! Nobody mentions my name! I smile when we torture Muggles Yes, I quite enjoy their struggles Watch when a Death Eater juggles Mudbloods in praise of my name! With my minions at my hand, I will lead them all to war. With Death Eaters to command I will vanquish Dumbledore! Snakes will hiss, cats yowl and dogs bark When you fill the sky with green spark. *"Morsmordre!"* summons the Dark Mark. Don't even whisper my name! Dark Lord! Witches tremble when they hear me! They've got cause enough to fear me! I'm much blacker than they smear me! He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. Though right now I have no torso, I'm the leader you adore so. I'll be stronger than before so Everyone will hear my name! Jorkins used to boast a claim She could take my name in vain. Bertha, shame she was so green; Never was she seen again! But there is a little rotter Who attends my *alma mater* Son of James and Lily Potter Able to say my name! You-Know-Who! You-Know-Who! You-Know-Who! My Name! From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Wed May 7 04:13:33 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voldemort's Comment in the Graveyard Scene Message-ID: <20030507041333.72037.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57196 Hi all! I don't know if this was brought up before, but I don't recall seeing it, so I'll put this idea to you guys. In Chapter 33, "The Death Eaters" GoF, US Edition Voldemort says, "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course..." Ok, so I know that I, and many people, have assumed that the last part ("...left me forever...") referred to Severus, but as I was re-reading GoF (again)something stood out to me. In Chapter 27, "Padfoot Returns", Sirius is listing the names of various Death Eaters, and he says, "Avery--from what I've heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying that he'd been acting under the Imperius Curse--he's still at large." Now do you guys think that maybe Voldemort was actually referring to HIM as opposed to Severus? Maybe that was thrown in there to set us off on the wrong track? What do YOU guys think? Possible or am I grasping at straws, here? ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 04:29:57 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 04:29:57 -0000 Subject: Wizard Cards...Spoilers, I suppose, but more likely just research. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57197 http://restrictedsection.com/otherHPstuff/chocfrogs.htm Evidently, JK approved all of the frog cards... One I found interesting was Gunhilda of Gorsemoor, a healer with one eye and a hump... the statue of whom is Harry's escape to Hogsmeade for his weekends in POA, IMO. Also, when reading the Helga Hufflepuff card, I began to think... could what house you're in have something to do with what type of magic you excel at? I realize it isn't likely, but Dumbledore, McGonagall, the Marauder's, Hermione...all Gryffindor...all good at transfiguration. And the Slytherin's have a tendancy towards potions. And Hufflepuffs seem to slant towards charms: Flitwick, for one. And Helga's card says that she was "loved for her charming ways." IMHO, Hogwarts is in Scotland, because Hogsmeade is. "(Hengist of Woodcroft) reportedly settled in Scotland. There he started the village of Hogsmeade." To answer my own question in a previous post: (Merlin) created the Order of Merlin. The Order made rules against using magic on non-wizards. So, Peter Pettigrew was given the title of Order of Merlin because Black blew him up in the street? Oh, yes, that makes sense. Really. I would also like to comment on the fact that the cards would specifically point out those wizards and witches born to non-magic parents... It seemed to be a big deal. It never seems to be in Hogwarts. Maybe it's one of those things that doesn't phase kids the way it does grown-ups. Becky, who needs a life. From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed May 7 06:34:43 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Arts at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <1052267262.9019.41664.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030507063443.83097.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57198 The "other" Mrs. Weasley wrote: Does it see odd to anyone else, but me, that Hogwarts is lacking in the arts? No music, literature or artistry hardly at all! The sorting hat does "sing" his little tune at sorting time, and we do see art on the walls, but other than that, there is little else that the students are encouraged to do. I would think at least one of the houses..Hufflepuff possibly, would want their students to learn music, art or literature. But then again...maybe it's not relevant to a "wizardring world"? ME ME ME: I've wondered about this a bit, mainly guessing that most of the artistic types would be placed in Ravenclaw. I can speak from experience as an artist-while most serious artists are hard workers (a Hufflepuff trait), we are even more likely to be studious nerds! It's true. When we are not in the studio, as often as not you'll find artists in our local library, bookstore or museum, doing research. Many of the most intellectualy stimulating conversations I've ever had has been with fellow artists over mugs of green tea. I'd love to study art at Hogwarts. I was wondering the other day about wizard photography. What would the image look like if you photographed an inanimate object, like an empty chair? Would the chair in the photo move? Maybe you would see the person who last sat in it. Where does the ability to show motion lie-in the photograph iself or in the subject of the photo? The wizarding world seems pretty creative to me. It may be that creativity is a given among wizards and as such doesn't warrent actual instruction (unlike us muggles who like to dismiss creativity as useless and horror of horors, 'feminine'). There has to be creative wizards around-who made those paintings? Tyler __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 7 06:50:05 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP: Harry, Ron, Concerns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507065005.63215.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57199 --- Becky wrote: > Harry is > likely to lead a coalition of many advanced > wizards against > Voldemort. He is a symbol of their potential to > overthrow an > otherwise overwhelming dark lord, and he needs > to begin to be > comfortable in a position of authority. Knowing > Harry, he never will > be very used to it, but I feel that Dumbledore > will start to put him > in positions where he does have increased > powers. Or at least, I > think he should. Lynn: As long as Dumbledore is around, Harry doesn't need to lead, but he is a symbol. I do think that Dumbledore has been grooming Harry to be the next leader against the Dark Side (Holy Star Wars, Batman) but a lot will depend on how Harry handles the information he'll need to know about the past. While Dumbledore told Harry that Harry was able to shoulder a grown wizard's burden, just how much more can a now 15 year old handle? And yet, Harry will have to take on more and whether it makes or breaks him remains to be seen. (Of course, since Harry is the 'hero' of the series it's a pretty good bet that he'll make it.) I wonder if Dumbledore now wishes he had told Harry about things sooner so that Harry isn't having so much thrown at him at once and would have had more time to assimilate the information Dumbledore must tell him. Well, perhaps the answer to that will come on June 21st. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 7 07:26:56 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LV's mudblood ancestry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507072656.60811.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57200 --- Tom wrote: > So, in other words, it's possible that Lucius > never communicated > with Diary!Riddle, and so the reason I brought > all that up at all is > that because of this, Lucius might not know > about Riddle's past from > that book, as Harry does. Lynn: No, we don't know technicially if Malfoy had any direct communication with Diary!Riddle, but how would Malfoy have gotten Riddle's school things, know the potential of the diary and not know that Riddle and Voldemort are the same? Personally, I don't see Voldemort going to Malfoy and saying, "Hey, Lucius. If that Potter kid does bring about my downfall, just give someone this old school diary of mine and that'll bring me back." Malfoy knew who the diary belonged to and what it's potential is. We know that by Dobby trying to keep Harry away from Hogwarts a month before Harry is due to return to school, so this has been planned. Dobby knew Riddle was Voldemort and how would he know unless he learned that in the Malfoy house? "'I've just got one question, Dobby,' said Harry, as Dobby pulled on Harry's sock with shaking hands. 'You told me all this had nothing to do with He Who Must Not Be Named, remember? Well -' 'It was a clue, sir,' said Dobby, his eyes widering, as though this was obvious. 'Dobby was giving you a clue. The Dark Lord, before he changed his name, could be freely named, you see?'" (CoS, p. 249, UK) My big question is not if Lucius Malfoy knows if Riddle and Voldemort are the same person but why Malfoy took so long to use the diary. Why not use the diary soon after Voldemort disappeared? Why not use it before Draco arrived at Hogwarts? Could it be the Lucius was communicating with Diary!Riddle and it was decided to wait until Harry showed up at Hogwarts so that Riddle could kill Harry and then go get his future self and be restored? Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From indyattic at earthlink.net Wed May 7 00:10:42 2003 From: indyattic at earthlink.net (indyattic) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:10:42 -0000 Subject: Modified JKR Quote? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57201 aja_1991 wrote: "http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003202221,00.html reports that a couple of pre-release copies of OotP were discovered in a field and the guy who found them turned them in. "The key quote, however, comes when the author of the article attempts to familiarize folks with information about the book. "The 37-year-old writer, who lives with her husband and two children in Scotland, also announced: 'There's at least one death that's going to be horrible to write, or rather rewrite.'"" Well, the rewrite thing seems to indicate that the person is already dead. Before seeing that, I always assumed that she meant Dumbledore, only because OOP notes several times that he is looking a bit older. Angie From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 08:16:55 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:16:55 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Modified JKR Quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507101432.00dba5c0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57202 At 00:10 07-05-03 +0000, indyattic wrote: >"The 37-year-old writer, who lives with her husband and two children >in Scotland, also announced: 'There's at least one death that's going >to be horrible to write, or rather rewrite.'"" > >Well, the rewrite thing seems to indicate that the person is already >dead. Before seeing that, I always assumed that she meant Dumbledore, >only because OOP notes several times that he is looking a bit older. To me it rather suggested that the Sun was using an old quotation from a point where the passage containing the death existed in some form, but still needed at least some rewriting. Troels From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 7 09:15:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:15:15 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karmakaze_kk" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dicentra spectabilis" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan Delaney wrote: > >> > >> Sooner or later Harry will figure that out and stop being > >> so afraid of being expelled just for the little rule breaking > >> he does. .... > Karmakaze: > > > .... I've also noticed that Harry isn't a little scofflaw, and yet > > Dumbledore says in CoS that one of the qualities that Harry > > possesses that Salazar Slytherin would have valued is "a certain > > disregard for rules." > > Actually, I tend to disagree. Harry may not think all rules > are pointless, but he does seem to think they don't apply to > him. > > ...edited... > > Harry always thinks he has the best and most urgent reasons to break > the rules, but he does break them left and right. It's an attitude > that says "I think I know what is important better than the people > who make the rules", which qualifies as "disregard" for me. > > -Karmakaze bboy_mn: I don't think you will get much support for this position; some, yes, but a lot, no. In the past, someone wrote a long essay on the stages of moral development, and pointed out that, as strange as it may seem, obeying the rules is a very low stage of moral development. Sometimes disregarding the rules is the morally correct thing to do. Example; a soldier has a moral obligation to obey orders (as well as rules and regulations), but that same soldier has a higher moral obligation to humanity as a whole. If your orders ask you to commit 'crimes against humanity', then you have a higher moral obligation to disobey. Many soldiers who obeyed the letter and the spirit of their orders have been tried for war crimes. If you doubt me, look up the Nuremberg Trials in your history books. Harry, dispite his occassional mischief, has very high moral character. The does what is right; he does what must be done, even if it goes against the rules. When he realized that there was nothing left to prevent Snape (actually Quirrel, but he didn't know that yet) from getting the Stone for Voldemort, he put the good of humanity above his own life and safety. His breaking of the rules was not an act of arrogance or disobedience, it was a self-sacrifice for the 'greater good' of humanity. He didn't ask or even assume his friends would come with him. He is in fact surprised to find out that THEY assume that they will be coming with. The higher moral plain that Harry and Dumbledore live on says when faced with a moral dilemma, you look into your conscience and do what you know is right, regardless of what the rules say. Rules are nothing more than a snapshot of people opinions at a given point in time. At another time, they may change the rules to suit the opinions at that given time. Yesterday abortion is wrong, today abortion is right (please, let's not start an abortion debate, I'm simply illustrating a point). Yesterday the death penalty is OK, today it is not. Yesterday non-white people were subhuman, today they are brilliant scholars, scientists, inventors, world leaders, religious and moral authorities, and by most scientific apprasals, the races from which the white race originated. Shall I go on? Morality, as opposed to rules, is, on the other hand, somewhat universal. What is truly right, changes very little over time. Of course, sometimes, like all of us, Harry gets it wrong, or chooses to ignore his conscience; like when he went into Hogsmeade without permission. But his small wrong infaction pale when compared to his many large morally right infactions of the rules. I don't at all see Harry viewing himself as above the rules. He takes the rules as serious or probably more serious than the other students. It's just that Harry's life is far more complex than most other students. He is faced with complex situations that other student will never have to face. I would say that his rule breaking that falls into the catagory of mischief is probably on par with his classmates. So does he disregard the rules? Yes, but mostly when the rules need to be disregarded. Remember, blindly and unquestioningly obeying the rules is a very low degree of moral development. Remember what Dumbledore said (I paraphrase), many times in life you will be face with choosing between what is right and what is easy. Let's hope you will always choose what is right. Nuf said. bboy_mn From echa_schneider at mac.com Wed May 7 08:49:25 2003 From: echa_schneider at mac.com (echa_schneider at mac.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:49:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: LV's mudblood ancestry In-Reply-To: <20030507072656.60811.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57204 On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 12:26 AM, Ladi lyndi wrote: > My big question is not if Lucius Malfoy knows if > Riddle and Voldemort are the same person but why > Malfoy took so long to use the diary. Why not > use the diary soon after Voldemort disappeared? > Why not use it before Draco arrived at Hogwarts? > Could it be the Lucius was communicating with > Diary!Riddle and it was decided to wait until > Harry showed up at Hogwarts so that Riddle could > kill Harry and then go get his future self and be > restored? I always got the impression that the Diary didn't really have much to do with Harry, but rather it was all about Lucius pulling out a card to play against Arthur Weasley in response to the Muggle Protection Act. Had nothing to do with Voldemort, it was just vengance, plain and simple. Echa From mranan at yahoo.com Wed May 7 09:04:51 2003 From: mranan at yahoo.com (Amura) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:04:51 -0000 Subject: Wizard Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gopotter2004" wrote: sorry for the deleting... > Also, when reading the Helga Hufflepuff card, I began to think... > could what house you're in have something to do with what type of > magic you excel at? I realize it isn't likely, but Dumbledore, > McGonagall, the Marauder's, Hermione...all Gryffindor...all good at > transfiguration. And the Slytherin's have a tendancy towards > potions. And Hufflepuffs seem to slant towards charms: Flitwick, for > one. And Helga's card says that she was "loved for her charming > ways." Flitwick is in charge of Ravenclaw, and Sprout is the one who manages Hufflepuff, so the theory won't be good on him. Although Gryffindors do have a amazing talent on Transformation, I have to say the students must study extra harder and get higher scores in the classes taught by the head of their houses. This is true for every school that has a house/class system, where one particular teacher is assigned to "take care of" certain group of students. My personal exo is that if you mess up with them, your life will be a living hell. ;) "Amura" From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 7 10:24:18 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:24:18 -0000 Subject: Murder she wrote... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57206 or more specifically; soul sucked, werewolf eaten, suicide, old age, incompetence, assisted, muggle, torture, sacrifice and murder JKR wrote. A little while back there was some discussion about too many deaths desensitising the reader. So I decided, in one of my more blood thirsty moods, to compile a list of all the ways each character could die in the Pottersverse. By bumping off each character in a different way I believe that each death would have a loud enough bang, especially the messier ones. The problem lies in that the books are written from the soul perspective of Harry Potter so in the books he must witness all the deaths, I have tried to include this in all my theories. Now to begin I have divided the deaths to specific characters Prof. S. Snape ? Hmm, difficult, difficult. So many paths to choose. There are those who could argue that he's already dead, being a vampire or the fact that he may be bitten in the future. Being eaten by a werewolf also has a nice feel to it but unfortunately being by far the most over emotional character in the novel I am pretty sure that Prof. Snape is going to find himself missing a soul in the near future. Think of the emotion in the scene when the man who had more baggage than your usual airport turns to face Harry and doesn't see Lily's eyes or James's hair or Voldemorts scar, just a boy. Oh and he "dies" never forgiving or being forgiving. Denis Creevy ? Many readers feel that this tiny boy has been written in just to be killed off, and hopefully turn his brother against Harry and the wizarding world in general. So I'm afraid I have this mousy little boy filled under becoming a midnight, moonlit snack for a certain werewolf. Which leads us too Prof. R. J. Lupin ? After the death of Creevy two I'm afraid that Prof. Lupin who teeters so close to the edge may very well fall off. But how will the werewolf bump himself off? There is always Harry walking into a deserted classroom to find Remus hanging on a self- made noose but I would prefer to see him (not literally of course) slit his wrists in a bath of warm water. Oh, and Sirius can walk in and see the aftermath. Prof. A. Dumbledore ? I'm am almost certain that old age is going to be the killer of this beloved character. I feel this is going to happen as he strikes me as too old for riding into battle to meet some heroic death. Harry will simple be sent up to his office one day an find him "asleep" at his desk. Cue heart wrenching, gut churning scenes of grief from everyone. Hermione Granger ? Well if she does die it is going to be through the incompetence of forgetting she's a witch. Even if she doesn't die she is probably going to be seriously wounded in the same reasoning. Mr. and Mrs. Longbottem ? Neville is going to kill them. No, don't look at me like that . These are people who have been dead to him for years and are never going to live again properly. But there will be a time where Neville must make a choice between the lives of his parents and of someone else. He will choose someone else. Draco Malfoy ? Whether he is to be redeemed or not I predict that a shotgun will be pointed at his head and he will completely under estimate how much of a threat his life is under from a bullet in his skull. Hermione will be witness. Sirius Black ? Fan girls time to start lapping up all those Hurt- Comfort scenes when the dark side captures that adorable puppy and tortures him. Whether they do this for information or just for fun I really don't care just as long as he's bare chest and bleeding form the mouth. All this is witnessed through scar-o-vision. Ron Weasly ? Yes, there is just no escaping all this foreshadowing warnings that the boy is going to sacrifice himself. Murder? ? And the next victim of murder in the Potterverse? Well I'm not too sure of this but what I am sure of is that the next burst of green light that is used to kill some one, it wont be the victim that bangs, but the murderer. Harry Potter. ** Well I can't think of any more at this precise moment but I'll make sure I get back to you if I do. Oh and before I forget, there's just one more person I have to kill off before I go George, bartender at the Pink Flamingo Cocktail lounge ? death by bang (sorry George, I'm sure it wont happen to book seven though) Amy From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 10:41:39 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 12:41:39 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507115910.00dba440@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57207 At 09:15 07-05-03 +0000, Steve wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karmakaze_kk" wrote: > > Harry always thinks he has the best and most urgent reasons to break > > the rules, but he does break them left and right. It's an attitude > > that says "I think I know what is important better than the people > > who make the rules", which qualifies as "disregard" for me. > >bboy_mn: > >I don't think you will get much support for this position; some, yes, >but a lot, no. > >In the past, someone wrote a long essay on the stages of moral >development, and pointed out that, as strange as it may seem, obeying >the rules is a very low stage of moral development. Sometimes >disregarding the rules is the morally correct thing to do. That it is sometimes necessary to break rules in order to do the 'right thing' should be obvious to most, but claiming that obeying rules is a low stage of moral development is, IMO, a morally reprehensible statement. Rules are created to allow a society to function. Disregard the rules and you destabilise the society - it really is that simple! Creating and maintaining complex societies are, IMO, a victory for human morals. The realisation that we must submit ourselves to the common rules to make that society work is perhaps the highest moral state humanity has yet achieved. The next step is when the rules become unnecessary. Normally minor transgressions can be absorbed without problem while more serious transgressions are punished, but if enough people start to do minor transgressions it can have seriously damaging effects for the society. Therefore rules should be followed for moral reasons, unless there are compelling /and/ commonly acceptable reasons not to. In most cases bad laws shouldn't be broken, but people should rather attempt to change them. Extreme cases where the laws/rules are used to supress people are naturally excepted from the above discussion. >Harry, dispite his occassional mischief, has very high moral >character. Normally, yes. Or at least - the books are written from that standpoint (I don't always agree with the books on what is right). > The does what is right; he does what must be done, even if >it goes against the rules. The problem is that he also often breaks the rules for reasons that are selfish or downright stupid - not very moral there. PS-9: The Midnight Duel. Breaking school rules just to get a chance to pursue a personal vendetta. PS-14: Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback. Breaking both wizard laws and school rules to help a criminal whom he happens to like. CoS-5: The Whomping Willow. Theft, breaking the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy (the very reason for the Ministry of Magic) and probably also the Decree for Reasonable Restriction of Underage sorcery. CoS-12: The Polyjuice Potion. Hiding information from the Headmaster because he fears it might make him look bad - even /after/ he's had Dumbledore's assurance that he is not under suspicion. Using illegal means to spy on Malfoy who they suspect just because they don't like him (OK - Hermione is the one who suggests this). PoA-2: Aunt Marge's Big Mistake. Blowing up Aunt Marge was an accidental act caused by emotional stress, so I won't count that. PoA-10: The Marauder's Map. Going to Hogsmeade for fun even after he has realised why he was certain to be prevented from doing it. Repeating it after Christmas. PoA-16: Professor Trelawney's Prediction. Going down to Hagrid as if they were the only ones capable of comforting him. I think that'll suffice. Harry apparently has grown a bit in GoF - at least he isn't quite as much the rule-breaker in that one (there's some faked homework, at least one hex in the corridors and perhaps some other minor things). >I don't at all see Harry viewing himself as above the rules. He takes >the rules as serious or probably more serious than the other students. Perhaps he doesn't, but he repeatedly acts as if he did. >It's just that Harry's life is far more complex than most other >students. He is faced with complex situations that other student will >never have to face. I would say that his rule breaking that falls into >the catagory of mischief is probably on par with his classmates. Nope! His transgressions are worse that most. Stealing and flying the car in CoS and going to Hogsmeade in PoA are the worst cases. >So does he disregard the rules? Yes, but mostly when the rules need to >be disregarded. Those cases are not - to me at least - what is important here. >Remember, blindly and unquestioningly obeying the rules is a very low >degree of moral development. But breaking the rules knowingly and for some personal fun or satisfaction is even worse. Rules should always be questioned, but very rarely should they be broken. Rather bad rules should be changed. The idea that you're allowed to break a rule or the law because you think it's bad is, IMO, a sign of excessive egoism. >Remember what Dumbledore said (I paraphrase), many times in life >you will be face with choosing between what is right and what is >easy. Let's hope you will always choose what is right. I'll remind you that what is right in that case is actually upholding the laws, while the easy way out is letting Voldemort and cohorts run roughshod over any rules they don't like (like e.g. that you're not allowed to kill Muggles). Troels From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 10:53:47 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:53:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57208 Dan Delaney writes: >So, if Harry is so important, all these threats about being >expelled from Hogwarts are just blowing smoke up >his...ahem...er...uh. There is NO WAY that they would expel him-- >for ANY reason. If he's that important, they want to make sure that >he gets fully trained the way THEY want him to be trained. It >wouldn't do any good to expel him and have him end up being a below- >average wizard due to lack of proper training. They want to make >sure he becomes the best wizard he canpossibly be in order to do >whatever it is that he was destined to do. >Sooner or later Harry will figure that out and stop being so >afraid of being expelled just for the littlerule breaking he does. >(Okay, so maybe some of it was not so little. But the fact that he >hasn't gotten expelled for some of the big things should be his > first clue!) Pip!Squeak: Harry can be very dim in some ways. ;-) The big clue that *nobody* wants Harry (or any of his close friends) expelled is in PoA, Ch. 21. Snape, in this scene, has the Trio bang to rights. They *attacked* a teacher. We are *definitely* in expulsion territory here. And the first few paragraphs give away a very interesting point. Snape never mentioned it. Fudge is the one who brings up the point of the 'very nasty cut'. Snape tells the truth about how he got it, but his *first* comment about the Trio is 'Black had bewitched them, I saw it immediately... they weren't responsible for their actions.' [PoA Ch. 21, UK paperback] He does then start wandering into 'maybe we could consider expelling Harry territory', but only after trying to avoid the subject entirely. After he's given Fudge the idea that the kids weren't *really* to blame for an attack which left a teacher unconscious for nearly an hour. While he's standing outside a doorway where Harry might be able to hear him talking. How would Harry behave if he knew he could never get expelled, *ever*, no matter what he did? How might Snape believe he would behave? Given that Harry is the son of a man who (at 16) thought a good time was playing around with a werewolf, in the streets of Hogsmeade and the grounds of Hogwarts. Who apparently thought that the occasional near miss (i.e. nearly killing innocent people) was *funny* [PoA, Ch. 18 ...there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards.] Hatred or no hatred of James, I'd be extremely worried about Harry Potter, pint sized celebrity who is above all the rules (for reasons he's currently too young to understand). This is in keeping with McGonagall's actions in PS/SS, btw. The first evidence of Harry rule - breaking, and she comes down on him and his friends like a ton of bricks. [Fifty points *each*? For being out of bed at night?] So, yeah. The threats are meaningless. The important thing is simply that Harry believes them, believes that rule-breaking *can* have serious consequences. Until he's old enough to start making his own, correct judgements about why rules are necessary and when you should break them. Incidentally, the Hogsmeade incidents in PoA show that Harry is *not* then old enough to make that judgement. His teacher's worries are justified. Will rulebreaking and expulsion be as important in OoP? Possibly not, if JKR is following the British system of many kids leaving at 16. [As someone pointed out, there's no evidence in canon for this. Why should there be? Harry isn't interested in things that don't actually affect him (see Hogsmeade, and the point that we never learnt about weekend visits until Harry was old enough to go) ]. If JKR is following the British school system, entry into higher level courses *is dependent on your exam results*. Harry won't have to worry about being expelled during year five. He'll have to worry about failing his exams and not being allowed to continue at Hogwarts. Variety's the spice of life, after all. ;-) Pip!Squeak From amani at charter.net Wed May 7 11:01:39 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 07:01:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Cards...Spoilers, I suppose, but more likely just research. References: Message-ID: <003501c31488$096c34e0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57209 Becky: Also, when reading the Helga Hufflepuff card, I began to think... could what house you're in have something to do with what type of magic you excel at? I realize it isn't likely, but Dumbledore, McGonagall, the Marauder's, Hermione...all Gryffindor...all good at transfiguration. And the Slytherin's have a tendancy towards potions. And Hufflepuffs seem to slant towards charms: Flitwick, for one. And Helga's card says that she was "loved for her charming ways." Me: Flitwick is the Head of Ravenclaw, not a Hufflepuff. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 7 12:13:05 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 12:13:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507115910.00dba440@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57210 Bboy wrote: > > > >In the past, someone wrote a long essay on the stages of moral > >development, and pointed out that, as strange as it may seem, obeying the rules is a very low stage of moral development. Sometimes > >disregarding the rules is the morally correct thing to do. > Troels wrote: > That it is sometimes necessary to break rules in order to do > the 'right thing' should be obvious to most, but claiming > that obeying rules is a low stage of moral development is, > IMO, a morally reprehensible statement. Rules are created > to allow a society to function. Disregard the rules and you > destabilise the society - it really is that simple! > Creating and maintaining complex societies are, IMO, a > victory for human morals. The realisation that we must > submit ourselves to the common rules to make that > society work is perhaps the highest moral state humanity > has yet achieved. The next step is when the rules become > unnecessary. > BBoy doesn't need me to defend him, but I seem to remember the essay he was talking about, and other discussions we've had on the topic, to mean that blindly obeying the rules indicates low moral development. The Nazis who flipped the switch at the concentration camps, overseers who whipped the hide off slaves, crooked accountants who cooked books, etc... were all obeying orders, or, in their world, "the rules." Troels: > The problem is that he also often breaks the rules for > reasons that are selfish or downright stupid - not very > moral there. > > PS-9: The Midnight Duel. Breaking school rules just to > get a chance to pursue a personal vendetta. > > PS-14: Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback. Breaking both > wizard laws and school rules to help a criminal whom he > happens to like. > > CoS-5: The Whomping Willow. Theft, breaking the > International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy (the very > reason for the Ministry of Magic) and probably also the > Decree for Reasonable Restriction of Underage sorcery. > > CoS-12: The Polyjuice Potion. Hiding information from > the Headmaster because he fears it might make him look > bad - even /after/ he's had Dumbledore's assurance that > he is not under suspicion. I was with you on the first three. Harry was baited into the Midnight Duel by Draco, but yeah, he could have showed better judgement (ickle Drakiekins ALWAYS does the right thing, though, so maybe the rules weren't broken - sarcasm) "Help a criminal who he happens to like" is a shade harsh, don't you think? We're also talking about Harry's first friend in the Wizard World, and really, first friend ever. And actually, he wasn't helping Hagrid break more rules. Norbert was going to Romania, which he would have done had Hagrid gotten caught. He was helping Hagrid not get caught. I agree about the car, but c'mon, that "damage" to the Whomping Willow was just pure Snape griping. I have a feeling that, had the boys hit the dumpsters behind the kitchens, Snape would have yelled at them for breaking valuable trash containers. And in the cases of the car and Norbert, they get caught and get punished. Perhaps not as severe as Snape would have wanted (or some on the list) but their actions were not without consequences. But the fourth one is not a breaking of a rule. It is perhaps poor judgement -- had he told Dumbledore about hearing the voices, Dumbledore might have figured out the basilisk thing -- but you cannot be compelled to share your innermost thoughts with a teacher. If that's the RULE, that your thoughts are available to authority figures, then sign me up for rule-breaking! > Using illegal means to spy on Malfoy who they suspect > just because they don't like him (OK - Hermione is the > one who suggests this). > They were wrong about Malfoy, but there were certainly other reasons to suspect him besides dislike. He screamed "You'll be next, Mudbloods" among a "mass of students" (Pg 106, CoS) when they found Mrs. Norris petrified. Salazar Slytherin, the kids discovered, was the originator of the Pureblood is Best Doctrine and Draco certainly espouses that point of view, to the point of openly, without regard to his audience, calling for their death. Any reasonable investigator would take a look at the kid. And since Harry is going to be investigated simply because he's a Parselmouth, I think we've established that what you say (and how you say it) can bring down suspicion. Sorry, no Draco-persecution here. > PoA-10: The Marauder's Map. Going to Hogsmeade for fun > even after he has realised why he was certain to be > prevented from doing it. Repeating it after Christmas. And again, he suffered consequences, not in the form of punishment, but in the form of a lecture from Lupin that seemed to really get to him. > PoA-16: Professor Trelawney's Prediction. Going down > to Hagrid as if they were the only ones capable of > comforting him. Wha???? C'mon, this is a reach. "Only ones capable of comforting him." They are his friends. They wanted to help, but I don't see how that translates to what you say is blatant arrogance. > >It's just that Harry's life is far more complex than most other > >students. He is faced with complex situations that other student will > >never have to face. I would say that his rule breaking that falls into > >the catagory of mischief is probably on par with his classmates. > > Nope! > His transgressions are worse that most. Stealing and flying the > car in CoS and going to Hogsmeade in PoA are the worst cases. And as I said, brought punishments... > I'll remind you that what is right in that case is actually > upholding the laws, while the easy way out is letting > Voldemort and cohorts run roughshod over any rules they > don't like (like e.g. that you're not allowed to kill > Muggles). > Whose laws? Fudge's? I have a feeling a LOT of those rules are going to be broken very soon, and will be justifiable each time. What if Fudge, citing the rules, tries to remove Dumbledore? Or Snape? Or what if Harry is locked up for being a Parselmouth? All of those actions could happen under the rules as they exist. What if Fudge creates a rule that says that all Muggle-borns must be sequestered in a "resort" (camp) for their own "protection"? And although the RIGHT way, under the rules you've set forth, for Harry and Ron to try to get Hermione out of the camp is to lobby the Magic Parliament (if there is such a thing), print up posters, form political action groups, make commercials, and somehow earn the money that Lucius Malfoy has to bribe politicians, maybe that's not going to work. (And would be a VERY dull book, besides.) Darrin -- Magic Parliament would be an OK band name From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 7 12:46:44 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 05:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507124644.3638.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57211 --- bboy wrote: > Lynn: Another thing to add to the argument that Harry's sense of morality is developing is his reaction to Lupin after the Hogsmeade incident. Snape is the threat of dire consequences for breaking rules while Lupin speaks to Harry's sense of morality and responsibility. To which does Harry respond? "[Lupin] walked away, leaving Harry feeling worse by far than he had at any point in Snape's office." (PoA, p. 213, UK) Kids break rules (unless your Percy Weasley and would you really want to be Percy? Talk about no fun.). Sometimes they consider the consequences and sometimes they don't. That's life, that's what growing up is all about. It's learning to choose right from wrong and sometimes the wrong choice is made. Harry was taught a valuable lesson about the consequences of breaking rules by Lupin. I find it interesting that it is usually during those times when Harry is breaking rules for personal consideration that he really doesn't stop to consider the consequences. However, when it is for the 'greater good', he considers what the consequences will be if he doesn't break the rules. When dividing Harry's rule breaking between those he breaks for his own personal benefit and those he breaks for what he considers is doing what is right, the list for doing what is right is far longer than those of personal gain. Lynn (who was known to break a few rules in her youth but still thinks she turned out to be a pretty decent person) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Wed May 7 12:54:42 2003 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 12:54:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507115910.00dba440@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote:> (Troels F. Writing) > That it is sometimes necessary to break rules in order to do > the 'right thing' should be obvious to most, but claiming > that obeying rules is a low stage of moral development is, > IMO, a morally reprehensible statement. Rules are created > to allow a society to function. Disregard the rules and you > destabilise the society - it really is that simple! > Creating and maintaining complex societies are, IMO, a > victory for human morals. The realisation that we must > submit ourselves to the common rules to make that > society work is perhaps the highest moral state humanity > has yet achieved. The next step is when the rules become > unnecessary. > > Normally minor transgressions can be absorbed without > problem while more serious transgressions are punished, but > if enough people start to do minor transgressions it can > have seriously damaging effects for the society. Therefore > rules should be followed for moral reasons, unless there > are compelling /and/ commonly acceptable reasons not to. > In most cases bad laws shouldn't be broken, but people > should rather attempt to change them. Extreme cases where > the laws/rules are used to supress people are naturally > excepted from the above discussion. The law and order style of thinking classified as a "low stage of moral developement" is probably from Kohlberg's stages of moral development. > > (Steve) > >It's just that Harry's life is far more complex than most other > >students. He is faced with complex situations that other student will > >never have to face. I would say that his rule breaking that falls into > >the catagory of mischief is probably on par with his classmates. > > Nope! > His transgressions are worse that most. Stealing and flying the > car in CoS and going to Hogsmeade in PoA are the worst cases. > > Troels How do we know that Harry's rule-breaking is "worst than most?" The trio's exploits are about the only ones we read about. We do read a bit about Draco's transgressions- his being out of bed to spy on the trio in PS, and his and other Slytherins use of the Dementor costume to scare and possibly injure Harry. I haven't seen Harry and friends try to deliberatly harm others through their rule-breaking. Besides, for all we know, perhaps a Ravenclaw or a Hufflepuff has gotten into serious trouble but we, the readers, never hear of it since it isn't in the scope of the story. (Not that I'm taking this too seriously or anything.) A Goldfeesh (who thinks that amy_marblefeet should be nominated for a FEATHERBOA if she doesn't have one already for that "murder she wrote..." post *g*) From pegruppel at yahoo.com Wed May 7 13:19:17 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 13:19:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57213 Jenny wrote: Harry is a part of something that the other students (and staff members too, for the most part) don't have to deal with. Someone is always after Harry, whether it is Voldemort himself, Dementors, the media, or annoying students. He is "Famous Harry Potter" and he always will be. It is quite a cross to bear, especially for a kid who wants nothing more than to fit in, have friends and a family of his own. Even Harry knows he has a knack for attracting trouble - it's out of his hands. Me: I second all of what Jenny said. The curse that failed has changed Harry in ways that I think we're only starting to see in the books. In an extraordinary place and time, people, even those we think of as "kids," need to be extraordinary. The past, present, and future of the WW, and probably the Muggle world, depend on a kid with a funny scar on his head. Peg From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 13:47:10 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:47:10 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507115910.00dba440@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507151901.00ddd5e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57214 At 12:13 07-05-03 +0000, you wrote: >Bboy wrote: > > > > > > >In the past, someone wrote a long essay on the stages of moral > > >development, and pointed out that, as strange as it may seem, >obeying the rules is a very low stage of moral development. Sometimes > > >disregarding the rules is the morally correct thing to do. > > > >Troels wrote: > > > That it is sometimes necessary to break rules in order to do > > the 'right thing' should be obvious to most, but claiming > > that obeying rules is a low stage of moral development is, > > IMO, a morally reprehensible statement. Rules are created > > to allow a society to function. Disregard the rules and you > > destabilise the society - it really is that simple! > > Creating and maintaining complex societies are, IMO, a > > victory for human morals. The realisation that we must > > submit ourselves to the common rules to make that > > society work is perhaps the highest moral state humanity > > has yet achieved. The next step is when the rules become > > unnecessary. > > > >BBoy doesn't need me to defend him, but I seem to remember the essay >he was talking about, and other discussions we've had on the topic, >to mean that blindly obeying the rules indicates low moral >development. I have no problems with it if it's restricted to blind and unquestioning following of the rules. I will still, however, maintain that a society with rules (any rules) are at higher moral stage than anarchic group. Even Saddam Hussein's government was better for Iraq than no government (it is to be expected that something that is better than either is on the way now). >Troels: > > > The problem is that he also often breaks the rules for > > reasons that are selfish or downright stupid - not very > > moral there. > > > > PS-9: The Midnight Duel. Breaking school rules just to > > get a chance to pursue a personal vendetta. > > > > PS-14: Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback. Breaking both > > wizard laws and school rules to help a criminal whom he > > happens to like. > > > > CoS-5: The Whomping Willow. Theft, breaking the > > International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy (the very > > reason for the Ministry of Magic) and probably also the > > Decree for Reasonable Restriction of Underage sorcery. > > > > CoS-12: The Polyjuice Potion. Hiding information from > > the Headmaster because he fears it might make him look > > bad - even /after/ he's had Dumbledore's assurance that > > he is not under suspicion. > > >I was with you on the first three. Harry was baited into the Midnight >Duel by Draco, but yeah, he could have showed better judgement (ickle >Drakiekins ALWAYS does the right thing, though, so maybe the rules >weren't broken - sarcasm) > >"Help a criminal who he happens to like" is a shade harsh, don't you >think? We're also talking about Harry's first friend in the Wizard >World, and really, first friend ever. Of course it is a shade harsh ;-) I wanted to make a point and sometimes exaggeration helps understanding. I'd still say that Harry's decision to help Hagrid out in this case is questionable at least from a moral viewpoint. >I agree about the car, but c'mon, that "damage" to the Whomping >Willow was just pure Snape griping. I have a feeling that, had the >boys hit the dumpsters behind the kitchens, Snape would have yelled >at them for breaking valuable trash containers. Sorry - just mentioned the chapter title. My 'accusations' were of theft and breaking of the Statute of Secrecy. >And in the cases of the car and Norbert, they get caught and get >punished. Perhaps not as severe as Snape would have wanted (or some >on the list) but their actions were not without consequences. The wizarding world appear to be quite accepting of fatalities - the Triwizard Tournament only got discontinued when the death toll mounted /too/ high, and at the annual broom race in Sweden the spectators cheer the survivers. And then there's duels ... I get the impression that breaking the Statute of Secrecy is considered worse than causing the death of another wizard by accident or in a duel. Seen in that light, I really think the boys got off far more easyly than anyone else would have done - because young Mr Potter was involved. >But the fourth one is not a breaking of a rule. It is perhaps poor >judgement -- had he told Dumbledore about hearing the voices, >Dumbledore might have figured out the basilisk thing -- but you >cannot be compelled to share your innermost thoughts with a teacher. >If that's the RULE, that your thoughts are available to authority >figures, then sign me up for rule-breaking! You're of course right. He didn't break any rules there. > > Using illegal means to spy on Malfoy who they suspect > > just because they don't like him (OK - Hermione is the > > one who suggests this). > > > >They were wrong about Malfoy, but there were certainly other reasons >to suspect him besides dislike. He screamed "You'll be next, >Mudbloods" among a "mass of students" (Pg 106, CoS) when they found >Mrs. Norris petrified. > >Salazar Slytherin, the kids discovered, was the originator of the >Pureblood is Best Doctrine and Draco certainly espouses that point of >view, to the point of openly, without regard to his audience, calling >for their death. > >Any reasonable investigator would take a look at the kid. And since >Harry is going to be investigated simply because he's a Parselmouth, >I think we've established that what you say (and how you say it) can >bring down suspicion. Sorry, no Draco-persecution here. I actually agree that Draco Malfoy was a likely candidate. What I protest is the Trio's moral right to take it upon themselves to carry out an illegal investigation of him. They ought, IMO, to have left the investigation to the teachers. Would we have accepted it if Draco had used Polyjuice Potion to disguise himself as Ron in order to check out Harry? The evidence against Harry was - in the eyes of most of the school - far more serious than the evidence against Draco. > > PoA-10: The Marauder's Map. Going to Hogsmeade for fun > > even after he has realised why he was certain to be > > prevented from doing it. Repeating it after Christmas. > >And again, he suffered consequences, not in the form of punishment, >but in the form of a lecture from Lupin that seemed to really get to >him. Yes - this time he really gets to feel bad about what he did, which I think he deserved more than any punishment Snape could have invented. > > PoA-16: Professor Trelawney's Prediction. Going down > > to Hagrid as if they were the only ones capable of > > comforting him. > >Wha???? C'mon, this is a reach. "Only ones capable of comforting him." > >They are his friends. They wanted to help, but I don't see how that >translates to what you say is blatant arrogance. ;-) They knew that Dumbledore is a good friend of Hagrid and that he had supported Hagrid in the process. I know that they had some good motives for what they did, but I don't think that compassion in this case is a sufficient motive to justify the rule-breaking. > > His transgressions are worse that most. Stealing and flying the > > car in CoS and going to Hogsmeade in PoA are the worst cases. > >And as I said, brought punishments... While the lack of punishment in the many other instances possibly means that Rowling find those justified. I can only say that I disagree with her. > > I'll remind you that what is right in that case is actually > > upholding the laws, while the easy way out is letting > > Voldemort and cohorts run roughshod over any rules they > > don't like (like e.g. that you're not allowed to kill > > Muggles). > > > >Whose laws? Fudge's? I have a feeling a LOT of those rules are going >to be broken very soon, and will be justifiable each time. The laws of the magical community as they are at the time when Dumbledore made that speech. >What if Fudge, I will not play the what-if game. It's really a non-sequitur to a discussion of Harry's past transgressions. We agree that most of his transgressions have been justified, I just wanted to point out that he was not quite the shining paragon of virtue that Steve seemed to me to suggest (my apologies to Steve if I misunderstood him, of course). Troels From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 13:55:53 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:55:53 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507115910.00dba440@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507154818.00ddf480@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57215 At 12:54 07-05-03 +0000, ameliagoldfeesh wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > wrote:> > > His transgressions are worse that most. Stealing and flying the > > car in CoS and going to Hogsmeade in PoA are the worst cases. > > > > Troels > >How do we know that Harry's rule-breaking is "worst than most?" The obvious reference is the reception Harry and Ron receives when they enter the Gryffindor tower after crash-landing the car in CoS. Also we have Dumbledore's word that Harry has 'a certain disregard for rules' (this being among the 'qualities' Salazar Slytherin appreciated in his hand-picked students). And of course I only indicated that Harry is in that half of the students that breaks the most rules, which shouldn't really upset anyone (I would find it difficult to imagine anyone seriously claiming that a majority of the students are worse than Harry ;-) He probably still has to work on it to catch up with the Weasley twins - or his own father for that sake ;-) Troels From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 7 14:06:41 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:06:41 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507151901.00ddd5e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57216 Me: > >Whose laws? Fudge's? I have a feeling a LOT of those rules are going > >to be broken very soon, and will be justifiable each time. > > The laws of the magical community as they are at the time when > Dumbledore made that speech. > > >What if Fudge, Troels: > > I will not play the what-if game. > It's really a non-sequitur to a discussion of Harry's past > transgressions. We agree that most of his transgressions have > been justified, I just wanted to point out that he was not > quite the shining paragon of virtue that Steve seemed to me to > suggest (my apologies to Steve if I misunderstood him, of course). > C'mon, don't reflexively say "No what ifs." Tell me what you would have the Trio do. Whose rules are we talking about? We are talking about Fudge's rules. And again, the alternative you suggest is for the Trio to form a student lobbying committee and try to hold placards outside the Ministry of Magic. Simply unrealistic, especially given Fudge's view of Muggle-Borns like Hermione. Considering how much influence Lucius Malfoy seems to have over Fudge, I would question any rule that comes from Fudge's office from now on and I would feel no compunction about breaking that rule. Darrin -- What if was my favorite comic as a kid From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 14:21:08 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 07:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Got Quidditch? In-Reply-To: <1052291991.2198.19506.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030507142108.68897.qmail@web14510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57217 Becky/gopotter wrote:>I have another thought on the subject. What if they don't have >Quidditch for a second year in a row? It wouldn't be unheard of for >JKR to skip things twice: Harry missed the sorting two years in a >row. (I think she was being lazy and didn't want to think of names. >Personal opinion.) And it IS dangerous, as we've seen. (Quirrel in >book one uses his dark magic to try to get the broom to buck Harry >off, in the third book the demetors walk into the stadium and have >a "feast" on the emotions there.) So it wouldn't be impossible, >IMHO, for Dumbledore, or Fudge, to pull the plug on the sport for >the safety of the students. I'd rather she didn't. I think these kids are going to need as much extra-curricular activities, as well as added defense classes to prepare themselves for Voldemort and try to have fun at the same time. At least, that is what I would do if I was in charge of Hogwarts. She doesn't necessarily have to give us play by play of Quidditch games as she always does. I just would like to know that Harry, along with the other students, aren't totally stressed out while thinking of bad things to come. It's really not healthy. Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed May 7 13:40:03 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 13:40:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <20030507124644.3638.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57218 Throughout the current threads concerning Harry's morality, lying, etc., one extremely important incident seems not to have been mentioned: giving the word to spare Pettigrew's life. While one can question whether his reasons for doing so are sufficiently moral -- his parents might not have wanted it, better for Pettigrew to rot in Azkaban -- the act is significant. Of course, he questions it once Pettigrew has escaped (leading Dumbledore to the speech about magic at its most mysterious), and one wonders how he feels about it in light of the graveyard scene. Nonetheless, this particular act strikes me as the Right Thing to Have Done. As far as Harry's being captain of the Quidditch team goes, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. For one, he doesn't seem to have the discipline to get the team to practice, etc. For two, he doesn't act much as a leader in general; he seems to prefer smaller and more collegial groups like the trio. For three, even his role on the team is a solitary one, and I assume the position title of Seeker is meant to be a bit metaphorical as well. Seeker as Captain? Seems unlikely; they are two very different types of people. Ersatz Harry From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 15:27:17 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:27:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: References: <20030507124644.3638.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507171423.00df7100@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57219 At 13:40 07-05-03 +0000, Ersatz Harry wrote: >giving the word to spare Pettigrew's life. [...] >Nonetheless, this particular act strikes me as the >Right Thing to Have Done. Harry /does/ usually do the Right(TM) thing. In Rowling's words: "I have to be careful what I say. Erm ... Harry is someone is forced for such a young person to make his own choices. He has very limited access to truly caring adults - and he /is/ guided by his conscience. Now, Harry makes mistakes, repeatedly, erm Harry ha- ... did things like ... he did - he did steal the flying car, that was a very stupid thing to do, he - but it seemed like a great idea at the time, we've all been there - er - but ultimately Harry is guided by his conscience. He is flanked by two friends, they work far better as a team than apart, though Harry tends to be the one who has to shoulder the most of the burden - he is the true hero in that sense, Hermione, who is really the brain of the outfit, and Ron, who is also a very brave character, I mean, I deeply admire bravery in all forms, and that's why ... in book one, if - if people have read book one they'll remember that Neville Longbottom, who is a - who is a comic, but I - he's not a tr- wholly comic figure to me, Neville is actually quite a tragic figure to me as well because there's a lot of Neville in me - this feeling of just never being quite good enough -- I mean I - we've all felt that at some point, and I felt that /a lot/ when I was younger, and I wanted to show Neville doing something brave - it's not as spectacularly brave as Harry and Hermione do, but he - he finds true moral courage in standing up to his closest friends - the people who are on his side, but he still thinks they are doing wrong and he tells them so - so that's a very important moment for me too in the first book." http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/interviews/19991012_TheConnection.html#part18 I think I'll just let that speak for itself, conscience, moral courage, mistakes and all >As far as Harry's being captain of the Quidditch team goes, this >doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Well - as it does to me, I'll just pipe in here as well ;-) Harry is definitely the leader of the trio, and I think that he will find himself assuming more responsibility as a leading figure in the fight against Voldemort - I believe that he is being groomed to replace Dumbledore as the leader of the opposition against Voldemort. As such he needs to improve his leadership talent and the position as Quidditch captain would help him do that far better than a position as prefect of Head Boy. >For one, he doesn't seem to have the discipline to get the team >to practice, etc. For two, he doesn't act much as a leader in general; I disagree with both here - Harry is the undisputed leader of the trio, and he has a natural talent for inspiring and motivating others that will be extremely helpful for him should he become captain of the Quidditch team. Speaking as a scout leader, I'd have to say that Harry is a very obvious choice for patrol leader. >For three, even his role on the team is a solitary one, and I assume >the position title of Seeker is meant to be a bit metaphorical as well. >Seeker as Captain? Seems unlikely; they are two very different types >of people. Cedric Diggory! Troels From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Wed May 7 15:27:42 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:27:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Arts at Hogwarts References: <20030507063443.83097.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023b01c314ad$3474bf70$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57220 The "other" Mrs. Weasley wrote: > I would think at least one of the houses..Hufflepuff > possibly, would want their students to learn music, > art or literature. But then again...maybe it's not > relevant to a "wizardring world"? I'd say that music, at least, is quite relevant to the WW. We know of at least one popular wizard band - "The Weird Sisters" (whose lead guitarist is the son of a professional Quiddith player - i just learned that last night). And if there is one band, there's bound to be more. And if there are musicians, there are bound to be artists. I think this is a very good question! Perhaps students interested in the arts go on to study them AFTER Hogwarts in specialty classes or something similar. ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From emeleel at juno.com Wed May 7 15:29:51 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:29:51 -0500 Subject: Why do they have Astronomy at HW? Message-ID: <20030507.102952.-541603.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57221 I was thinking about a reply to the reply to my "Why have a Secret Keeper?" post last night, and something struck me as very odd: Why do they learn Astronomy at Hogwarts? If it's astronomy the science, why that Muggle science and no others? (Chemistry and physics make more sense, they would relate to Potions and casting certain spells that involve movement.) If "Astronomy" is really more what we would call "astrology", then that doesn't make sense either, because they cover that in Divination. I dunno, I just thought of it and realized it's rather strange. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 7 15:41:31 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:41:31 -0000 Subject: Modified JKR Quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57222 Okay, even though the Sun article is most likely useless, I'm still interested in the astral projection idea, so I thought about it some more. aja said: > >Perhaps [...] we learn that Dumbledore was somehow there, saw > >it all happen, was powerless for some reason to stop it, and has > >dumped the memory into the Pensieve so that Harry can see it. > > Then Annemehr: > > Oh, I know! Astral projection! That's how Dumbledore could see it > > all but have no time to do anything! Annemehr, now: Which is all very well, but has the disadvantage that, once Dumbledore sees what is happening, it's not likely he'd *stay there* to see the whole thing -- which will seriously curtail what he could put into the pensieve. Still, let's carry on: > Me (aja_1991) again: > > Hey, it works, doesn't it? :-) And we don't that Dumbledore DOESN'T > have that ability, or some type of remote sight skills, or > clairvoyance, etc, etc. > The only problem I have with this whole thing (even though I pretty > much tossed it out as an idea) is that if Dumbledore *DID* see what > happened, why didn't he (1) "reconnect" himself and (2) apparate to > Godric's Hollow and save James or Lily or Harry? > Annemehr: I think astral projection has an advantage in that it should be much more reliable that clairvoyance or remote sight. Remote sight, however, is cool because St. Godric was known for it! If it's astral projection, then how does Astral!Dumbledore move around? Is his travel instantaneous or does it have a certain limited speed? If Astral!Dumbledore's speed is limited, then he wouldn't have time to travel from G's Hollow back to Hogwarts (where he presumably was on Halloween night) and then get back with his body to stop Voldemort. Even if Astral!Dumbledore can get back to his body immediately, if his body is at Hogwarts, it's still going to take him some time to get *off* the Hogwarts grounds in order to apparate. It very likely would have been too much time to do any good. Even if Dumbledore was using remote sight, assuming he was at Hogwarts, he still wouldn't necessarily have enough time to get to G's Hollow, for the same reason. It also depends on *when* he began looking. If he started out by seeing James' dead body and then Lily pleading for Harry's life, then time was very short indeed. So, I still think this astral projection/remote seeing idea has legs! I suppose he *could* have been actually there, but in a full body bind or something (Voldemort overpowered him because he wanted him to see the destruction of the Potters before he killed him off, too) -- not likely, but it *would* mean that Voldemort was THIS CLOSE to complete victory! Anyway, it is the only way I can think of for Dumbledore to get the whole scene into the pensieve, but it's really kind of weak -- and just who would have unbound Dumbledore afterward, then? Annemehr still liking aja's idea... From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 15:55:05 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Got Quidditch? (Was: Harry, Ron, Concerns) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507155505.70348.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57223 Becky wrote: Becky... who is trying to think of a good way to distinguish herself from the other Becky's. ME: Now why on Earth would you want to do that?? Huggs The REAL Becky Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Wed May 7 15:25:39 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:25:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57224 Ertsatz Harry wrote: Seeker as Captain? Seems > unlikely; they are two very different types of people. Linda(Me): First let me say I don't think Harry will be Quidditch captain. I really don't have an argument to support this. It's just a gut feeling. That said, what's wrong with a seeker being captain? I agree that the position does not require as much teamwork as say, chaser but that by no means precludes the teamwork ethic from being a part of a seekers mentality. Harry, thinking of the team, clears the way for Katie to score the goal in PoA. Besides, Cedric is both the Hufflepuff seeker and team captain, so the positions are obviously not mutually exclusive. -Linda From byujava at yahoo.com Wed May 7 15:55:26 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OotP Spoilers:Re: Got Quidditch? (Was: Harry, Ron, Concerns) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507155526.68415.qmail@web41301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57225 --- gopotter2004 wrote: > I have another thought on the subject. What if they > don't have > Quidditch for a second year in a row? It wouldn't be > unheard of for > JKR to skip things twice: Harry missed the sorting > two years in a > row. (I think she was being lazy and didn't want to > think of names. > Personal opinion.) And it IS dangerous, as we've > seen. (Quirrel in > book one uses his dark magic to try to get the broom > to buck Harry > off, in the third book the demetors walk into the > stadium and have > a "feast" on the emotions there.) So it wouldn't be > impossible, > IMHO, for Dumbledore, or Fudge, to pull the plug on > the sport for > the safety of the students. > In the Scholastic article that was on The Leaky Cauldron, it mentions that Ron is the new Quiddich Keeper. Why have a keeper if you're not going to play quiddich? Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed May 7 15:58:28 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:58:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507171423.00df7100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > >Seeker as Captain? Seems unlikely; they are two very different types > >of people. > > Cedric Diggory! Oops. I suppose I have to let a counterexample get in the way of my beautiful theory, don't I? Harumph. But arguments and rationalizations aside, Harry still does not *feel* like he has a captain's sort of personality to me. Maybe I'm just too influenced by how Oliver acts, and he seems a very different sort of personality than Harry. I guess we'll see in 6+ weeks... Ersatz Harry From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 16:30:58 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:30:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507171423.00df7100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507182440.00bba730@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57227 At 15:58 07-05-03 +0000, Ersatz Harry wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > wrote: > >>Seeker as Captain? Seems unlikely; they are two very different types > >>of people. > > > > Cedric Diggory! > >Oops. > >I suppose I have to let a counterexample get in the way of my >beautiful theory, don't I? Harumph. I think that I remember an adage in English that is equivalent to our Danish "that is the exception that proves the rule," but I don't recall the exact words.;-) >But arguments and rationalizations aside, Harry still does >not *feel* like he has a captain's sort of personality to me. Well - I do think he's a natural leader, but I also believe that he has to improve that talent, so the conclusion is sort of inevitable for me ;-) >Maybe I'm just too influenced by how Oliver acts, and he >seems a very different sort of personality than Harry. /If/ Wood has let the team go for two years without reserves (CoS and PoA) after that disastrous defeat at the end of PS, then I think it's time for another personality at the captaincy ;-) >I guess we'll see in 6+ weeks... I CAN'T WAIT!!!!! (sorry - I'll try to be quiet) Troels From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 7 16:42:04 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507182440.00bba730@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030507164204.75118.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57228 --- Troels wrote: > /If/ Wood has let the team go for two years > without reserves > (CoS and PoA) after that disastrous defeat at > the end of PS, > then I think it's time for another personality > at the captaincy ;-) Lynn: I got the impression not that Wood never looked for reserves but rather that there wasn't anyone with the talent available. McGonagall and Wood were very excited about finding Harry. It seems strange that if there were a lot of talented players around McGonagall would have just suggested Harry try out for the team, after all tryouts were coming up. Yet, she took Harry straight to Wood and told him that she'd found a Seeker. Granted, first years didn't make the House teams as a rule but I'm sure they still could have tried out. Also, we don't know that there weren't reserves for the rest of the team, just that there wasn't a reserve Seeker, which may well be the problem position. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 16:58:20 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:58:20 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups][OOP] Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <20030507164204.75118.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507182440.00bba730@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507185016.00dfc860@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57229 At 09:42 07-05-03 -0700, Ladi lyndi wrote: >Lynn: > >Also, we don't know that there weren't reserves >for the rest of the team, just that there wasn't >a reserve Seeker, which may well be the problem >position. In that case Wood would surely have fielded someone as Seeker in that catastrophy match where Harry was missing. Instead he played one player short. Of course he might have found reserves for the other positions since then, but if Ron is the new Keeper, then any reserve Keeper must have been Woods own year or the year below. My problem is that Wood should have had reserves for all the positions - he should have taken the second best for each position and groomed them as reserves, no matter how much they were worse than the basic team. If he had done that it would, however, IMO, be unlikely that Ron would find himself on the team in OotP without having been among the reserves previously, which is why I prefer to believe that Wood wasn't as good a captain as we have been let to believe (or rather - he was an excellent captain, but a terrible team manager). Troels From sarudy at yahoo.com Wed May 7 16:29:50 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 16:29:50 -0000 Subject: "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importance and...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57230 > --- "karmakaze_kk" wrote: > >> Harry may not think all rules are pointless, but he does seem to >> think they don't apply to him. Sneaking out to stop Quirrell, >> while heroic, was against all sort of rules. (And, I should >> point out, put the stone in far more jeapardy than if he had >> simply stayed in the dorms as instructed.)> > > You mean, Harry put the stone in more jeopardy than if he had > allowed Voldemort to possibly get his body back and the stone to > boot, thus achieving immortality? Not at all. However, the administrator and teachers at the school were aware of the threat and had taken steps to protect the stone. And, as it turned out, those steps had been adequate to the job. Quirrell was completely unable to retrive the stone from the mirror. It was only through Harry's intervention that it was retrived at all. If Harry had stayed in his dorm, as ordered, Quirrel would have been stymied at that point, and the stone would have remained safe. Harry, by believing that he knew better than Dumbledore and his other instructors, and by believing that the rules should not apply to him, placed himself and the wizarding world in greater danger than it would have been otherwise. If Dumbledore had not returned when he did, it's possible Quirrel could have pried the stone from Harry, despite the pain, and ressurected Voldemort right then and there. Now, I'm not saying that Harry did not make the best decision he could based on the information he had. But his behavior does display a "certain disregard for rules". I brought this example up originally as a counterargument to a postulate that Harry is in fact a conscientious rule-abiding student and that Dubledore was lying or mistaken when he characterized him otherwise. >> He works with Hermione to create a polyjuice potion (which they >> are not allowed to make) using a book from the library (which >> they were not allowed to have) to infiltrate Sytherine House >> (where they are not allowed to go), after drugging two members >> of Sytherin (which has to be some kind of assault). And that >> was a stunt that didn't even pan out.> > > How did it not pan out? The Trio wanted to find out if Draco > was involved with what was going on and they did. The only > one who really suffered there was Hermione, who became Cat Girl > for a while. Well, I considered to not have panned out because all they learned was that Draco was a dead end. They really were expecting to learn something postive, not to confirm a negative. And I would argue that Hermione was not the only person harmed in that adventure. Crabbe and Goyle (as much as we dislike them) were drugged/enchanted and locked in a closet. I think we'd all be rather upset if some Slytherin did the same thing to two Gryffindor. >> Harry always thinks he has the best and most urgent reasons >> to break the rules, but he does break them left and right. >> It's an attitude that says "I think I know what is important >> better than the people who make the rules", which qualifies >> as "disregard" for me. > > I agree with you that Harry does indeed have a disregard for rules, > but I have to support him in his breaking them. > [snip] I'll grant you that Harry gets away with his disregard for rules because, quite often, they /don't/ apply to him. He is quite the special case. Of course, I'm sure Tom Riddle felt exactly the same way. :) > --jenny from ravenclaw ************* - Karmakaze (who's starting to wonder if she could reclassify herself to Sytherin, the way she's been arguing lately) From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed May 7 17:42:06 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:42:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Cards...Spoilers, I suppose, but more likely just ... Message-ID: <161.1fc43075.2bea9f6e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57231 In a message dated 5/7/03 2:28:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gopotter2004 at yahoo.com writes: > (Merlin) created the Order of Merlin. The Order made rules against > using magic on non-wizards. > > So, Peter Pettigrew was given the title of Order of Merlin because > Black blew him up in the street? Oh, yes, that makes sense. Really. Actually Peter received the Order of Merlin for attempting to stop Sirius Black from killing 12 Muggles. Of course *we* know he did no such thing, but the people in charge of the Order of Merlin didn't at the time, and probably still don't. -- Ray "Power corrupts. And absolute power is a LOT of fun." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Wed May 7 17:58:15 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:58:15 -0000 Subject: "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importance and...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57232 Karmakaze: However, the administrator and teachers at the school were aware of the threat and had taken steps to protect the stone. And, as it turned out, those steps had been adequate to the job. Quirrell was completely unable to retrive the stone from the mirror. It was only through Harry's intervention that it was retrived at all. If Harry had stayed in his dorm, as ordered, Quirrel would have been stymied at that point, and the stone would have remained safe. Bill: I must respectfully disagree. If Harry had not confronted Quirrel, then Quirrel possibly could have removed the Mirror from Hogwarts, and taken it elsewhere, where Voldemort could have taken all the time he needed to break the puzzle. For example, Harry ended up with the stone because he wanted the Stone, but not to use it. How hard would it be to find some impressionable young child to retrieve the Stone in the same manner, but who does not have the same protection as Harry had? End result: one dead child and one Stone. That particular approach might not work, but remember that Tom Riddle was the brightest student to attend Hogwarts in a long, long time. He would have eventually come up with *something*, and then returned to power three years earlier. Harry's actions gave the Wizarding World three extra years of peace, just as his actions during his second year also kept Riddle from returning, and also allowed Hogwarts to remain open, not to mention saving Ginny's life and vindicating Hagrid. Bill From acukier at uol.com.br Wed May 7 17:42:49 2003 From: acukier at uol.com.br (alexcukier) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:42:49 -0000 Subject: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57233 Hello Guys, I subscribed the digest about 2 month ago, and finally I got some time (and courage) to post my ideas. - I truly believe that James, Lilly, Harry and Voldemort were not the only person that tragic October 31st. Of course this ideas are not entirely new, and I'm sorry if this was discussed before.- At PoA, Chapter 12 "The Patronus", Lupin says in a strange voice: "Did you hear James", to Harry. I don't know if this strange voice was because Lupin knows whose it was; if it was Lupin's own voice; or if Lupin "thinks" it was not probable that it was James (for some reason we don't know yet, but James could have already been killed by Voldemort at the door, or was hidding in a wardrobe, whatever...) Other important thing that shows me that this is the right direction is: I don't believe that any of the alive characters that were at Godric's Hollow will disclosure the whole truth to Harry - Voldemort could give more details if it was important to him that Harry knows the details, I don't believe in Harry's memory either (he was only 1 year old), and their fathers are definitely dead (according to JK's interviews). I don't buy any time-travelling to Godric's Hollow too - it's impossible to Harry go there and not influence what happened. Other possible solution to the truth emerges would be by a Pensieve, but it would not be so interesting and exciting as a 5th person shows him/herself and tell all the details. If there was a 5th person at Godric's Hollow, who could be? This person had an active role in what happened or was hidden? Maybe these answers are going to tie the plot and say some things: - What happened to Voldemort's wand from October 31st to V's re-birth? - How Harry survived to V's Ava Kedavra? (if it was that easy, like the Lillys love sacrifice, or hability with Charms, we can agree that it would exist at least ONE other person who survived to AK, wouldn't it? I don't believe it was that - maybe even voldemort doesn't knows the whole true about what happened there because maybe he was defeated before the end of the happenings)? - Whose voice could be? Dumbledore's? Lupin's? In my opinio the voice is from someone's that Harry NEVER HEARD UNTIL his 15's... I'd like to start some discussion about it. Alex Cukier, a brazilian huge fan Darrin, "Brazilian Boa Constrictor's Servants" would be a good band name? From dicentra at xmission.com Wed May 7 18:14:40 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:14:40 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507151901.00ddd5e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57234 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > While the lack of punishment in the many other instances > possibly means that Rowling find those justified. This brings up an interesting point: Does the pattern of act and consequence indicate what JKR considers justified/unjustified, or is she simply showing that sometimes you get caught and sometimes you don't? The topic of rulebreaking in the Potter series is extremely complex because there does not seem to be a one-to-one connection between getting punished and doing the wrong thing. Not all bad acts are punished, and occasionally people get busted when they are in fact innocent. Hermione has yet to be caught for stealing boomslang skin from Snape's stores, but Harry gets points taken away all the time at Snape's whim. This is closer to how things are in real life, where you *do* get away with wrongdoing sometimes, and sometimes you're penalized for doing the right thing. Under these circumstances, you have to do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing, not to avoid punishment or anticipate reward. It's really the only setting in which you can develop moral character; otherwise, you're Pavlov's dog, doing the "right" thing only because you get a treat for it. --Dicentra From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 7 18:16:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:16:25 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Comment in the Graveyard Scene In-Reply-To: <20030507041333.72037.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, iluvgahan wrote: > Hi all! I don't know if this was brought up before, but I > don't recall seeing it, so I'll put this idea to you guys. > > > ... Voldemort says, "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. .... One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course..." > > .... In Chapter 27, ... Sirius is listing the names of various > Death Eaters, and he says, > "Avery--from what I've heard he wormed his way out of > trouble by saying that he'd been acting under the Imperius > Curse--he's still at large." Now do you guys think that > maybe Voldemort was actually referring to HIM as opposed to > Severus? ...edited... > > ===== > Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." bboy_mn: One small problem (GoF Am HB pg 648) Avery is there in the graveyard. Voldemort: Get up, Avery," said Voldemort softly. "Stand up, you ask for forgiveness? I do not forgive, I do not forget. ..." bboy_mn From errolowl at yahoo.com Wed May 7 18:35:51 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:35:51 -0000 Subject: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507185016.00dfc860@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57236 >Lynn: >Also, we don't know that there weren't reserves >for the rest of the team, just that there wasn't >a reserve Seeker, which may well be the problem >position. Troels: >In that case Wood would surely have fielded someone >as Seeker in that catastrophy match where Harry was >missing. Instead he played one player short. >Of course he might have found reserves for the other >positions since then, but if Ron is the new Keeper, >then any reserve Keeper must have been Woods own year >or the year below. Troels, I find it hard to believe that Wood played one player short. Where's the canon for that? SS 302: "You missed the last Quidditch match, we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you" Now, Ron says without *Harry* ? not without a seeker. I assume someone else played seeker, probably whoever had that position before Harry if that person was still around. It makes no sense to play one player short, especially the seeker position, cause then Griffindor could never finish the match. They would never win even if they compiled a huge goal difference since they would be totally at the mercy of the other team to close the match. Oh no, they had a seeker all right, just not a very talented one. I'd go so far as to say they have reserves for the positions, but they are just not considered important enough to mention specifically. Though it wouldn't have hurt JKR to tell us who *did* play in Harry's place. (sigh) Errol From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed May 7 18:46:48 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:46:48 -0000 Subject: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "errolowl" wrote: <<>> Sorry Errol, there is canon: "Harry shifted guiltily in his seat. He had been unconscious in the hospital wing in the final match the previous year, meaning that Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst defeat in three hundred years" CoS p. 84 UK paperback edition. I would agree that Wood should have made one of the other players the seeker, but it certainly seems as though they only played with 6 players. Ali From patricia at obscure.org Wed May 7 18:49:23 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wizard Cards and wizard ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57238 On Wed, 7 May 2003, gopotter2004 wrote: > http://restrictedsection.com/otherHPstuff/chocfrogs.htm > > Evidently, JK approved all of the frog cards... First, does anyone actually consider these cards to be spoilers? They don't seem so to me, anymore than the school books are spoilers, as they provide background about the world but don't reveal anything about the plots of any of the books. In any case, I'm about to discuss some of the information on the cards, so if you don't want to know what they say, don't read any farther. * * * * In the past on this list there has been a lot of discussion about wizard life spans. Some people have stated that wizards live twice as long as muggles. Others have suggested that wizards and witches live to be about 200. There is supposedly some interview evidence for this, though I haven't seen it myself. (I would love to see it, btw, if anyone can supply a link.) However, I noticed that only one of the deceased wizards on the chocolate frog cards for whom birth and death dates were given lived to be over 100 (and not by much). Furthermore none of the living wizards were born more than a century ago, either. Here is the list of those with known birth and death dates: Dead Wizards: Adalbert Waffling b. 1899 d. 1981 (age 82) Beaumont Marjoribanks b. 1742 d. 1845 (age 103) Bowman Wright b. 1492 d. 1560 (age 68) Cornelius Agrippa b. 1486 d. 1535 (age 49) Daisy Dodderidge b. 1457 d. 1555 (age 98) Gifford Ollerton b. 1390 d. 1441 (age 51) Gunhilda of Goorsemoor b. 1556 d. 1639 (age 83) Ignatia Wildsmith b. 1227 d. 1320 (age 93) Lord Stoddard Withers b. 1672 d. 1769 (age 97) Quong Po b. 1443 d. 1539 (age 96) Sacharissa Tugwood b. 1874 d. 1966 (age 92) Living wizards: ('age' means in 1995, presumed start of Book 5) Bertie Bott b. 1935 age: 60 Derwent Shimpling b. 1912 age: 83 Devlin Whitehorn b. 1945 age: 50 Donaghan Tremlett b. 1972 age: 23 Gwenog Jones b. 1968 age: 27 Newt Scamander b. 1897 age: 98 I see a bunch of wizards and witches living into their nineties and one nudging past 100, but none of these ages are out of the question for muggles -- out of the norm, yes, but not unheard-of. Even before the development of antibiotics and other muggle medical advancements there were always a few people who managed to live to very old ages like these. So this leads me to wonder just how much longer magical life spans really are. Do magical folks naturally live longer than muggles could even theoretically live, or are their life spans more like ideal muggle life spans, due possibly to the healthful effects of being surrounded by magic or to the advantages made available by magical health care techniques? If magical people live 'ideal' muggle life spans rather than having a separate upper limit on their life spans, that would seem to affect the debate over how long witches' childbearing years last. Presumably their fertile years would not last much longer than muggles' would if their lifelines have the same upper boundary as muggles' do. Also, if magical folk live to ideal muggle ages but not much beyond, that would explain why we hear about people's grandparents but never about their great- or great-great-grandparents. Additionally, it would appear that Dumbledore at 150 (or thereabouts) is exceptional even among wizards. Reaching that advanced an age does not appear to be normal even for magical folks, regarless of whether they live out 'ideal' muggle life spans or not. Interesting. I wonder how he does it. Clean living, maybe? ;) ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Wed May 7 18:51:41 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:51:41 -0000 Subject: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57239 Alex Cukier: I truly believe that James, Lilly, Harry and Voldemort were not the only person that tragic October 31st. Of course this ideas are not entirely new, and I'm sorry if this was discussed before If there was a 5th person at Godric's Hollow, who could be? This person had an active role in what happened or was hidden? Bill: I have always thought that other people were present that night. For one, I believe that Peter Pettigrew would have had to physically guide Voldemort to the Potter residence. This is also suggested by Sirius finding him missing that night, and immediately knowing that he had betrayed them. As for other people, well, I get the impression that Death Eaters work in teams of several people. Four people were convicted in the torture of the Longbottoms. I would not be surprised if, say, Lucius Malfoy was also present - he just seems the type, and is also in Voldemort's inner circle. As for a fourth Death Eater, how about Snape? I suspect that he was the spy who warned Dumbledore about Voldemort's plans to attack the Potters, and so, as one of the few people who knew beforehand what was intended, he would be a logical choice to participate in the Potters' murder. Bill From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 18:55:05 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:55:05 -0000 Subject: Murder she wrote... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57240 Amy wrote: > Prof. S. Snape ? Hmm, difficult, difficult. So many paths to > choose. There are those who could argue that he's already dead, > being a vampire or the fact that he may be bitten in the future. > Being eaten by a werewolf also has a nice feel to it but > unfortunately being by far the most over emotional character in > the novel I am pretty sure that Prof. Snape is going to find > himself missing a soul in the near future. Think of the emotion > in the scene when the man who had more baggage than your usual > airport turns to face Harry and doesn't see Lily's eyes or James's > hair or Voldemorts scar, just a boy. Oh and he "dies" never > forgiving or being forgiving. This is very Bangsty. I like it. I would actually love to see some sort of apology from Snape to Harry and vice versa, or an understanding of some sort, either before he dies or while he's dying. I will be crying my eyes out, as well. > Denis Creevy ? Many readers feel that this tiny boy has been > written in just to be killed off, and hopefully turn his brother > against Harry and the wizarding world in general. So I'm afraid I > have this mousy little boy filled under becoming a midnight, > moonlit snack for a certain werewolf. Which leads us too Something needs to be done with the Creeveys in general, they're very annoying. > Prof. R. J. Lupin ? After the death of Creevy two I'm afraid that > Prof. Lupin who teeters so close to the edge may very well fall > off. But how will the werewolf bump himself off? There is always > Harry walking into a deserted classroom to find Remus hanging on a > self-made noose but I would prefer to see him (not literally of > course) slit his wrists in a bath of warm water. > Oh, and Sirius can walk in and see the aftermath. All I can do is bow my head and cry because yes I can picture this happening. Lupin will forget to take his wolfsbane potion and attack someone. I'd prefer it'd be someone we know, they not die, but he realizes he has to lock himself up. I still want him around, I don't to see Lupin die. > Hermione Granger ? Well if she does die it is going to be through > the incompetence of forgetting she's a witch. Even if she doesn't > die she is probably going to be seriously wounded in the same > reasoning. Hermione's going to die a horrible death and at the hands of Lucius because we all know how much he loves Mudbloods. > Ron Weasly ? Yes, there is just no escaping all this foreshadowing > warnings that the boy is going to sacrifice himself. Yes, I think that is a bit obvious. I see him sacrificing himself for Harry and/or Hermione. >Murder? ? And the next victim of murder in the Potterverse? Well >I'm not too sure of this but what I am sure of is that the next >burst of green light that is used to kill some one, it wont be the >victim that bangs, but the murderer. Harry Potter. Wow, I never really thought Harry would murder someone, besides Voldemort of course, but now you have me thinking that Harry could. Who could Harry kill? Hmmmm... Great job on this Amy! You have me seeing character deaths in different views now. So you think that the next murder will be by Harry? This would mean that it *could* happen in book 5 and it is another way for Harry to examine death closely because he is the cause of it. Hhmmmmm.... Greicy From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 18:56:51 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507185651.20697.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57241 --- Ali wrote: > "Harry shifted guiltily in his seat. He had been unconscious in the > hospital wing in the final match the previous year, meaning that > Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst > defeat in three hundred years" CoS p. 84 UK paperback edition. > > I would agree that Wood should have made one of the other players > the seeker, but it certainly seems as though they only played with 6 > players. Just because they played with only 6 players doesn't mean there wasn't a Seeker. It doesn't seem *possible* that a team could play without one if the Seeker is the only one who can end the game. (Doesn't Harry think once that Gryffindor would have to forfeit without a Seeker? Sorry, I'm in mid-move and my books are packed. :)) Probably one of the Chasers would be shifted to play Seeker, leaving them a player short but at least one person in each position. Except none of the Chasers are good Seekers AND they're now a Chaser short, so they get steamrollered. Andrea __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed May 7 19:15:21 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:15:21 -0000 Subject: The Diary; LV's mudblood ancestry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57242 On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 12:26 AM, Ladi lyndi wrote: > My big question is not if Lucius Malfoy knows if > Riddle and Voldemort are the same person but why > Malfoy took so long to use the diary. Why not > use the diary soon after Voldemort disappeared? > Why not use it before Draco arrived at Hogwarts? > Could it be the Lucius was communicating with > Diary!Riddle and it was decided to wait until > Harry showed up at Hogwarts so that Riddle could > kill Harry and then go get his future self and be > restored? Echa replied: >I always got the impression that the Diary didn't really have much >to do with Harry, but rather it was all about Lucius pulling out a >card to play against Arthur Weasley in response to the Muggle >Protection Act. Had nothing to do with Voldemort, it was just >vengance, plain and simple. Maria: I'd have to say, yes and no. I think that jeopardising the Muggle Protection Act was Lucius's primary motivation, but really he was killing several birds with one stone - getting rid of Dumbledore and several Muggle-borns as well as helping out Arthur with his new law. I doubt that Lucius would have planted the diary in Hogwarts had it not been for the Muggle Protection Act. As someone pointed out, most likely it wasn't the first year that he'd had it in his possession, so he'd had an opportunity to do it before. Maria From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Wed May 7 14:51:44 2003 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:51:44 -0000 Subject: Memory Charms and why they bother me. (WAS: Is there anything in the HP world th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57243 "Tom Wall" wrote: > Memory Charms, and their frequent use in the WW, bother me, I think, more than just about anything else that we've seen to date. > Yes it is a thought, all that wiping clean. A big dramatic point in Orwell's 1984 is the way the Ministry of Truth alters historic records... some similar threads here? There are also, come to think of it, some instances where memory charms are NOT used. Aunt Marge has her memory modified so she doesn't remember getting blown up - but nothing in Canon about the Dursleys being charmed to forget seeing that incident. Nothing about the Dursleys being charmed to forget their collison with wizarding in their own sitting room in GoF. Harry has to return to a Dursley hosuehold with full memory of a number of things... Just wondering if this memory-charm free zone is significant in plot terms... maybe the Old Magic depends on memories not being obliviated... Edis From sarudy at yahoo.com Wed May 7 18:56:38 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:56:38 -0000 Subject: "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importance and...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57244 > Karmakaze: > However, the administrator and teachers at the school were aware of > the threat and had taken steps to protect the stone. And, as it > turned out, those steps had been adequate to the job. Quirrell was > completely unable to retrive the stone from the mirror. It was only > through Harry's intervention that it was retrived at all. If Harry > had stayed in his dorm, as ordered, Quirrel would have been stymied > at that point, and the stone would have remained safe. > > Bill: > > I must respectfully disagree. If Harry had not confronted Quirrel, > then Quirrel possibly could have removed the Mirror from Hogwarts, > and taken it elsewhere, where Voldemort could have taken all the > time he needed to break the puzzle. The timing on that would be awfully tight. When Harry walked into the room, Quirrel was staring at the mirror, completely stumped. Harry and Quirrel had their confrontation, which did not take all that long, at the end of which, Harry passed out, no longer able to protect the stone. Dumbledore's arrival could not have occurred very long after Harry lost consciousness. It seems far more likely that Dumbedore would have walked in while Quirrel was still trying to figure out what the mirror was supposed to do. I'm not arguing that Harry's motives aren't good, but that particular stunt of his could have gone very badly, and could have had the exact effect he was trying to avoid. "Kk" From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Wed May 7 19:36:55 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:36:55 -0000 Subject: Memory Charms and why they bother me Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57245 "Tom Wall" wrote: > Memory Charms, and their frequent use in the WW, bother me, I think, more than just about anything else that we've seen to date. > Edis wrote: Yes it is a thought, all that wiping clean. A big dramatic point in Orwell's 1984 is the way the Ministry of Truth alters historic records... some similar threads here? There are also, come to think of it, some instances where memory charms are NOT used. Aunt Marge has her memory modified so she doesn't remember getting blown up - but nothing in Canon about the Dursleys being charmed to forget seeing that incident. Nothing about the Dursleys being charmed to forget their collison with wizarding in their own sitting room in GoF. Harry has to return to a Dursley hosuehold with full memory of a number of things... Just wondering if this memory-charm free zone is significant in plot terms... maybe the Old Magic depends on memories not being obliviated... Maria (me): They don't need to Obliviate the Dursleys. The whole point of Memory Charms is to prevent those not in the know about the WW from finding out about it. The Dursleys, OTOH, know about the WW already, so what's the point of wiping out their memories? But I agree with everyone who thinks that we're going to have a major Memory-Charm plotline. I mean, they've been in every book by now, and haven't Banged even once! All those hints pointing to Memory Charm'd Neville just can't be one giant red herring. Maria -- is there a Memory Charm'd Neville filk? From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed May 7 19:37:13 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:37:13 -0000 Subject: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: As for a fourth Death Eater, how about > Snape? I suspect that he was the spy who warned Dumbledore about > Voldemort's plans to attack the Potters, and so, as one of the few > people who knew beforehand what was intended, he would be a logical > choice to participate in the Potters' murder. So why didn't Snape do something else to try and save them. If he did feel he owed a life debt to James, it would seem odd that he would just stand by and let him be murdered. From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Wed May 7 20:09:58 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:09:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57247 On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 06:53 AM, bluesqueak wrote: > [a lot of stuff] Good points, all. :-) > Harry won't have to worry about being expelled during year five. > He'll have to worry about failing his exams and not being allowed to > continue at Hogwarts. Even there I don't think he really has to worry--although he doesn't realize it. If it does end up being the case that students only go to sixth and seventh year if they score above a certain level on their exams, then what would happen if Harry ends up not scoring high enough? Is DD going to say, "Oh well, good try Harry. It was nice knowing you. Good luck with your life." I think not. Again, it is extremely important for Harry to get fully trained. I think it more likely that DD would sit him down and have a SERIOUS talk with him about just how important it is that he start taking his wizarding education more seriously. Then he'd go ahead and pass him on to the sixth year, despite his bad scores on the tests--maybe even get him to work with someone over the summer vacation in order to catch up to where he ought to be. --Dan From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed May 7 20:16:59 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:16:59 -0000 Subject: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" > wrote: > As for a fourth Death Eater, how about > > Snape? I suspect that he was the spy who warned Dumbledore about > > Voldemort's plans to attack the Potters, and so, as one of the few > > people who knew beforehand what was intended, he would be a logical > > choice to participate in the Potters' murder. > > > So why didn't Snape do something else to try and save them. If he > did feel he owed a life debt to James, it would seem odd that he > would just stand by and let him be murdered. I think it's a very good possibility that he was there, that he'd gone to prevent it, even if under the guise of servant of Voldy, and when that failed DID try to stop it. Mel From errolowl at yahoo.com Wed May 7 20:28:26 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:28:26 -0000 Subject: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats In-Reply-To: <20030507185651.20697.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57249 I Wrote: >>I find it hard to believe that Wood played one player short. Where's the canon for that?<< And Ali promptly replied with: >>Sorry Errol, there is canon: "Harry shifted guiltily in his seat. He had been unconscious in the hospital wing in the final match the previous year, meaning that Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst defeat in three hundred years" CoS p. 84 UK paperback edition. I would agree that Wood should have made one of the other players the seeker, but it certainly seems as though they only played with 6 players.<< Oh Dear! How did I manage to miss that?! And I call myself a fan... (shakes head despondently) Oh well, It still feels wrong to be a player short. But the words can't just be attributed to Harry feeling he left Wood one option short-- he would have said "..meaning Griffindor had had to play another seeker, and had suffered their worst defeat in 300 years" wouldn't he? Oh! hold on, that sounds too egoistical a thought for Harry to form. Maybe that's the problem here... some strange compulsive humbleness preventing Harry from forming the right thought. Or...or, that other thing he is so good at ? guilt. He realizes that he was crucial to the team, and not being available was equivalent to leaving Wood one player short. I know, Excuses, Excuses!! And thanks to Andrea for providing another one: >>Just because they played with only 6 players doesn't mean there wasn't a Seeker. It doesn't seem *possible* that a team could play without one if the Seeker is the only one who can end the game. (Doesn't Harry think once that Gryffindor would have to forfeit without a Seeker?:)) Probably one of the Chasers would be shifted to play Seeker, leaving them a player short but at least one person in each position. Except none of the Chasers are good Seekers AND they're now a Chaser short, so they get steamrollered.<< I'm still going to delude myself into thinking they have reserves though. Talk about Fudgeing.. Errol. From cgbrennan at aol.com Wed May 7 19:33:46 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:33:46 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57250 I know there is no evidence for this, but with speculation growing regarding new information on the Dursleys... Does anyone think it's possible that the Riddles and the Dursleys could be related? That Harry is related to Voldemort on the MUGGLE side? There is certainly speculation that Harry and Voldemort are connected in some way. It could be the transfer of powers that occured during Voldemorts first attack on Harry. I don't think they are related on the Wizard side because Dumbledore told harry that Voldemort is the last descendent of Slytherin. What do you think? "cgbrennan" From meboriqua at aol.com Wed May 7 20:24:14 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:24:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: >First let me say I don't think Harry will be Quidditch captain. I really don't have an argument to support this. It's just a gut feeling.> I wish you and everyone else who thinks this would explain why. The only reason I can think of to support everyone's "gut feelings" about Harry being Quidditch captain is because he seems to be chosen for everything throughout the series, whether he wants those things or not. I think it would suck if Harry was asked to be Quidditch captain and I'll explain why. Harry hates the spotlight. He doesn't like everyone focused on him and prefers to be one of the crowd, most of the time. He certainly didn't want to be Triwizard Champion, and often fantasized about sitting up in the stands with his friends. If he took on the responsibility as Gryffindor Team captain, he'd feel even more pressured and even more under everyone's scrutiny. I also think he'd lose some of his love of Quidditch because he'd be so busy organizing his team, practices, strategies, etc. that the game would stop being as exciting for him. As much as people think Harry is a leader, he isn't a leader because he enjoys people depending on him. He'd much rather, IMO, be a team player and work with others to earn success together (an excellent quality in a leader). We see this all the time as he, Ron and Hermione study together, make Polyjuice Potions together, and work out tricky situations together, as in SS. His willingness to share the championship with Cedric in GoF is also an example of this. Harry doesn't want all the glory for himself. On a more personal reaction, I'd dislike for Harry to be captain because I'd think JKR was really pushing it. I adore Harry but how much can the kid take? How much of a super kid is he supposed to be? Right now I'd say the twins would make much better co-captains for next year. After that we'll have to see. For now, Harry already has too much to deal with and I'd hate for him to be worrying about bringing his team to victory on top of it or blaming himself for their losses. --jenny from ravenclaw, always there to support Harry *************************************** From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed May 7 19:34:49 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:34:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts Message-ID: <15c.1e8000c9.2beab9d9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57252 bard7696 at aol.com writes: > And considering that Trelawney has two correct predictions in her > entire tenure at Hogwarts, I'm not sure Trelawney "has" it. At least > Snape and Hagrid KNOW something about the subject they teach. Depends on what you consider "it" to be. My opinion of Divination, and I *think* it is shared by Dumbledore (which is why he allows such an obvious fraud to teach it), is that true foreknowledge is iffy and unreliable. It strikes when it wants to, not when you want it to. So, if that's true, what does someone who has these visions/insights/flashes do the other 23 hours and 59 minutes a day? [Opinion alert] He/she fakes it! You make banal predictions vague enough to be pointed to later as "proof" of your powers. There is a certain skill necessary to do this consistently. It's the same skill that con men and actors have. This skill could be the "it" that Hermione doesn't have, and (probably) doesn't want to develop. [/End opinion] -- Ray "Everything I tell you is a lie, including that." "Including what?" "That everything I tell you is a lie. It isn't true." Peter Cook and Dudley Moore, Bedazzled [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed May 7 20:32:27 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:32:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importan... Message-ID: <157.1f0cd462.2beac75b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57253 In a message dated 5/7/2003 3:29:34 PM Central Standard Time, errolowl at yahoo.com writes: > "Harry shifted guiltily in his seat. He had been unconscious in the > hospital wing in the final match the previous year, meaning that > Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst > defeat in three hundred years" CoS p. 84 UK paperback edition. > I seem to recall in PS/SS a comment from Ron (I think) that Lee Jordan had subsitituted as Seeker. I don't have the book handy at the moment to cite the quote. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 7 20:34:43 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:34:43 -0000 Subject: "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importance and...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57254 > The timing on that would be awfully tight. When Harry walked into the > room, Quirrel was staring at the mirror, completely stumped. Harry > and Quirrel had their confrontation, which did not take all that long, > at the end of which, Harry passed out, no longer able to protect the > stone. Dumbledore's arrival could not have occurred very long after > Harry lost consciousness. It seems far more likely that Dumbedore > would have walked in while Quirrel was still trying to figure out what > the mirror was supposed to do. > > I'm not arguing that Harry's motives aren't good, but that particular > stunt of his could have gone very badly, and could have had the exact > effect he was trying to avoid. > > "Kk" What has to be kept in mind is that Dumbledore seemed to be encouraging Harry to go after the Stone, by getting him the cloak, explaining the mirror, and kind of generally staying out of the way. Originally I thought that Dumbledore just kind of meant it as an obstacle course, to see if the Trio could make it, without realizing that Quirrell was betraying them. But, then I realized that Dumbledore, through Snape, should have known Quirrell was a bad guy, yet he didn't do anything to shut Quirrell down, and let himself get yanked away from the school pretty easily and apparently didn't tell McGonagall what was happening. Perhaps Dumbledore wanted Harry to go after the stone in the manner he did, in which case the rule-breaking should be looked at differently. Darrin -- so glad to have restarted the band name trend From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 20:52:16 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:52:16 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importan... In-Reply-To: <157.1f0cd462.2beac75b@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507225015.00e1f3e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57255 At 16:32 07-05-03 -0400, Meliss9900 at aol.com wrote: >I seem to recall in PS/SS a comment from Ron (I think) that Lee Jordan had >subsitituted as Seeker. I don't have the book handy at the moment to cite >the quote. Don't bother looking - it isn't there. Troels From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Wed May 7 19:19:24 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:19:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oop copies found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030507141639.00b6e308@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57256 stephen recently mentioned: >Not sure how many members know but three copys of Oop were found in >a field yesterday. They were from a local print works. A man found >them out walking. one copy is still missing. The other two were >handed in to one of our british tabloids. For full story go to >thesun.co.uk Stephen IMDb ( http://us.imdb.com/PeopleNews/#2 ) also has the story, including the tidbit that the Sun is claiming that a man offered to sell them the first three chapters for $37,500 in a suitcase (Since IMDb is an American publication, I think they converted the amount requested in pounds to an American dollar amount.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From NoaniFMI at aol.com Wed May 7 20:29:47 2003 From: NoaniFMI at aol.com (NoaniFMI at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:29:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57257 In a message dated 5/7/2003 2:53:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mongo62aa at yahoo.ca writes: > Bill: > > I have always thought that other people were present that night. For > one, I believe that Peter Pettigrew would have had to physically > guide Voldemort to the Potter residence. This is also suggested by > Sirius finding him missing that night, and immediately knowing that > he had betrayed them. > > As for other people, well, I get the impression that Death Eaters > work in teams of several people. Four people were convicted in the > torture of the Longbottoms. I would not be surprised if, say, Lucius > Malfoy was also present - he just seems the type, and is also in > Voldemort's inner circle. As for a fourth Death Eater, how about > Snape? I suspect that he was the spy who warned Dumbledore about > Voldemort's plans to attack the Potters, and so, as one of the few > people who knew beforehand what was intended, he would be a logical > choice to participate in the Potters' murder. > > Bill > Not quite. The fact that Wormtail was not at his home only suggests that he was at some predesignated meeting place. I would, however, agree that it is possible he was present. That would be the most probable explanation for for how Voldemort recovered his wand in GOF. There is no evidence that Lucius Malfoy had any role in the deaths of the Potters. L.I.W.Y. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 21:20:56 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Memory Charms and why they bother me In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507212057.48036.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57258 "Tom Wall" wrote: > Memory Charms, and their frequent use in the WW, bother me, I think, more than just about anything else that we've seen to date. ME: I think the point about memory charms is right on. They are only LEGITAMITELY used by Minester of Wizardry officials for whiping out the memory of Muggles accidently descovering there are wizards and witches. That, afterall is the primary reason the ministry exists. That is also why it was not used on the Dursley's. Eliminating a memory of a bad incident just because it's bad would be a definite misuse of the memory charm. They already know about witches and wizards and Aunt Petunia knew since she was a kid as her sister was one. Now we have seen a number of examples of the misuse of memory charms but those were always by either evil characters or like Crouch, somebody hiding something they did that was very, very wrong and so they had nothing to lose. OR, like a certain "charming" pathological liar parading as a DADA teacher who has used it continuously (seems only in more remote places) to advance his fraudulent career. Considering how useful this spell could be (Think about it. How useful would it be to any of our day-to-day lives if we can erase or modify anybodies memory that we choose)it seems like it is really rarely used and must therefore be highly illegial with serious punishment for getting caught. Not like the unpardenable spells of course but seriously enough. Maybe it's a very advanced spell too. In a way it is sort of like the United State's predicament with guns. Using a gun to blow a hole in somebody is highly illegial but in a society infatuated with firearms and violence and owning guns, people here are blowing each other away daily no matter what the laws say! It is possible that memory charms are the Wizard World's scourge and nuisance much like guns are in the US. Bad guys can and will use it. Now about it being a main plotline. I wouldn't at all be surprised if it turns out to be. After all, Voldemort and his DE's wouldn't hesitate a moment in using memory charms. My guess is it may play a significant role in the future storyline. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 7 21:28:12 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:28:12 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Ron, Concerns References: Message-ID: <002001c314df$91b3d450$7f096750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57259 Maria wrote: As much as I don't want Harry to become Captain, I have to admit that it's the only thing that'll make sense. Consider, what's the use of Angelina, Fred, or George becoming Captain for just one year, when someone, most likely Harry, will have to take over the next year anyway? Although, it would make sense for Harry to be co-captain with someone, so that he could learn all the techniques, and be fully prepared to captain in his sixth year. Who knows, maybe *he*, at least, will realize the benefits of having a reserve team, especially a reserve Seeker. Me (Izaskun): Well, I have always considered that being captain of the quidditch team is not necesarily a matter of seniorship, but a matter of skill, you should have charisma, be a natural leader, know the game and of course be good with the strategies. I think Ron'd be a perfect captain. It's his first year as a player, granted, but he's nuts about quidditch, he knows the game and he's very good playing chess which should mean that he's got an analytical mind, something important when playing sports, you have to be able to anticipate your rival's movements in order to prevent them. So, why not Ron??? CHeer, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 21:27:21 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507212721.97620.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57260 > Bill: > > I have always thought that other people were present that night. For > one, I believe that Peter Pettigrew would have had to physically > guide Voldemort to the Potter residence. This is also suggested by > Sirius finding him missing that night, and immediately knowing that > he had betrayed them. > > As for other people, well, I get the impression that Death Eaters > work in teams of several people. Four people were convicted in the > torture of the Longbottoms. I would not be surprised if, say, Lucius > Malfoy was also present - he just seems the type, and is also in > Voldemort's inner circle. As for a fourth Death Eater, how about > Snape? I suspect that he was the spy who warned Dumbledore about > Voldemort's plans to attack the Potters, and so, as one of the few > people who knew beforehand what was intended, he would be a logical > choice to participate in the Potters' murder. > > Bill ME: I partially agree. I would be very surprised if Lord Voldemort attacked the Potters alone (although he well may have). It would be logical for him to have some DE's with him and Lucius Malfoy is as good a bet as any although it really could be anybody if there was somebody with him. But I seriously doubt Snape was there. I think for him to participate and not do anything to help the Potter's when he was secretly working for Dumbledore would be in Dumbledore's eyes absolutely unforgiveable. Even if he couldn't stop Voldemort from killing him, I think Dumbledore would never have forgiven him for not trying. Being willing to give people second chances do have their limitations. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 7 21:42:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:42:00 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507115910.00dba440@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57261 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 09:15 07-05-03 +0000, Steve wrote: > >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "karmakaze_kk" wrote: > > > Harry always thinks he has the best and most urgent reasons to > > > break the rules, but he does break them left and right. It's an > > > attitude that says "I think I know what is important better than > > > the people who make the rules", which qualifies as "disregard" > > >for me. > > > >bboy_mn: > > > >In the past, someone wrote a long essay on the stages of moral > >development, and pointed out that, as strange as it may seem, > >obeying the rules is a very low stage of moral development. > >Sometimes disregarding the rules is the morally correct thing to > >do. > > Troels: > > That it is sometimes necessary to break rules in order to do > the 'right thing' should be obvious to most, but claiming > that obeying rules is a low stage of moral development is, > IMO, a morally reprehensible statement. ...edited... > bboy_mn: I was making a comparison, and that comparison was NOT breaking the rules is a higher stage of moral development than obeying the rules. Following your conscience and a universal set of moral principles, and doing what is right independant of the rules is a higher stage of moral development than blindly and unquestioningly obeying the rules. Moral right is a higher moral standard than legal right. Remember that everything that is immoral is not against the law/rules, and everything that is against the law in not necessarily immoral. Even when things are legal, you still have a higher obligation to follow your conscience. I won't go through your post or the others item by item, instead I'll just make some general comments directed at the subject. Harry is human. He makes mistakes. We all do. That's how we establish our moral compass. That's how we learn the difference between right and wrong. All kids get into mischief, and Harry is no different. When Harry sneaks off to Hogsmeade, he can't see the harm in it. A quick look around, a bag of tricks, some Honeyduke's chocolate, where's the harm? He truly doesn't see it. He sees his restriction to the school grounds as unfair. The mean old Dursley's wouldn't sign his permission slip. It wasn't his fault that Aunt Marge was a mean insulting old bag who accidently got blown up. It wasn't his fauld Sirius Black was trying to kill him. Why should he be punished for all these things that aren't his fault? At least that's what he thought until Lupin talked to him and pointed out how his actions risked wasting his parents lives and the sacrifice they make for him. That lesson, the moral vision he gained from that was a thousand times more productive than any punishment he could have received for breaking the rules. He made a mistake, he made a bad choice, and he learned more and, in his conscience, punished himself more than any detention could have. If this was a story about a saint; about a boy who never did anything wrong, who always had the perfect answer to every problem then it would be no story at all. If you think kids will respond to prefect little Sunday school stories, you are sadly mistaken. The reason kids get some much out of these books is because the books have degrees of moral ambiguity. When something is simultaneously right and wrong, and no one gives you a solution, no one resolves it nice and neat for you, then it forces you to look inside yourself and search for right and truth. That internal searching of moral ambiguity for moral right and truth, will teach you more about right and wrong than all the preaching and sermonizing you will hear in a hundred lifetimes. In short, the lessons you teach yourself are the ones you learn the best. Harry stuggles with right and wrong. He struggles searching for the right path. But he is unique in his dilemma. The other students don't have a psychotic megalomaniacal lizard man trying to kill them. They don't have to deal with house-elves complicating their lives by nearly killing them in an effort to save them. They don't have to worry about the most dangerous and notorious escaped criminal in the wizard world trying to kill them. They don't have to deal with competing in a dangerous and sometimes deadly tournement against their will. Harry's life runs through uncharted moral territory and he has no reference points, he has no one to turn to because no one has to or has ever had to face what Harry faces. Considering everything he has had to confront in this short lifetime, I would say he is doing an outstanding job of making the right choices. At Harry's age, how many of us could deal with the situations that Harry has had to face? How many of us would make the right choice when faces with the moral dilemmas he faces? Not many I think. This is the story of a flawed little boy, frightened, abused, and alone in the world. A little boy who shoulders enough to crush most grown men, and shoulder it he does, and he does it well. He makes mistakes, but then don't we all. In the end, we must step back from nitpicking every little mistake Harry makes and condeming him for it, and look at the overal character of the boy and see what kind of boy he is. I would say he is a boy of strong moral character with great courage and determination, and he is kind, considerate, selfless, and caring. For all that, I can forgive a few mistakes. But then, that just my opinion. bboy_mn From NoaniFMI at aol.com Wed May 7 20:21:54 2003 From: NoaniFMI at aol.com (NoaniFMI at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:21:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importan... Message-ID: <17b.19e69d4c.2beac4e2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57262 Bill (mongo62aa at yahoo.com) No, that is not the case. After the fact, when DD was speaking with Harry he said (paraphrase) "Only someone who wanted to find the stone-but not use it- would be able to obtain it from the mirror." So it was, essentially, protected from Quirrell. "L.I.W.Y." From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 7 21:41:13 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:41:13 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 5th Person at Godric's Hollow References: Message-ID: <003001c314e1$62925460$7f096750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57263 Alex wrote: I subscribed the digest about 2 month ago, and finally I got some time (and courage) to post my ideas. - I truly believe that James, Lilly, Harry and Voldemort were not the only person that tragic October 31st. Of course this ideas are not entirely new, and I'm sorry if this was discussed before.- At PoA, Chapter 12 "The Patronus", Lupin says in a strange voice: "Did you hear James", to Harry. I don't know if this strange voice was because Lupin knows whose it was; if it was Lupin's own voice; or if Lupin "thinks" it was not probable that it was James (for some reason we don't know yet, but James could have already been killed by Voldemort at the door, or was hidding in a wardrobe, whatever...) .... - Whose voice could be? Dumbledore's? Lupin's? In my opinio the voice is from someone's that Harry NEVER HEARD UNTIL his 15's... me (Izaskun): Well, I think it was SNape's. I think he discovered that Voldemort was going to Cedric's Hollow that night and followed him in order to help the Potters, when he arrived LV had just killed James. it was him who told Lilly to take Harry and hide, and he was probably stunned by LV, or just disarmed. He could have killed him, of course, but I think LV was more interested in killing Harry asap, so he didn't even bothered to kill Snape then, he probably thought he could torture and kill him later. Remember he didn't even want to kill Lilly. And the reason why Snape was there is quite obvious, he was trying to save Jame's life. I won't go through the Snape-in-love-with-Lilly theory, though I'm a big supporter and it would add another motivation to Snape's behavior, but I think that him trying to save Jame's life is a good enough reason. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From petalla at express56.com Wed May 7 20:36:26 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:36:26 -0000 Subject: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57264 > I think it's a very good possibility that he was there, that he'd > gone to prevent it, even if under the guise of servant of Voldy, > and when that failed DID try to stop it. > > Mel I may be out of my mind (and probably am), but I do believe Snape was there that night. There is no proof of this (yet---or maybe not ever). Someone told Lily to take Harry and run--it was a voice that Harry thinks could have been his father's. This may just be because he wants it to be his father's voice. Harry wanted to believe that the Patronus that came from accross the lake (P of A) was his father protecting him and his friends. He saw who he thought was his father---it was actually himself. Harry desperately wants to have his parents by his side, and his mind knows this (the "reflection" in the mirror (PS/SS). I think he will asume that any kind of protection that he receives is from them, or from Dumbledore. I'm sure these are not the only instances he will hear, see, smell...or even touch his parents. always, Peggy From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 7 21:51:48 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:51:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion References: Message-ID: <003e01c314e2$dd658c10$7f096750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57265 Errol wrote: I find it hard to believe that Wood played one player short. Where's the canon for that? SS 302: "You missed the last Quidditch match, we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you" . Oh no, they had a seeker all right, just not a very talented one. I'd go so far as to say they have reserves for the positions, but they are just not considered important enough to mention specifically. Though it wouldn't have hurt JKR to tell us who *did* play in Harry's place. (sigh) Me (Izaskun): "Harry shifted guiltily in his seat. He had been unconscious in the hospital wing for the final match of the previous year, meaning that Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst defeat in three hundred years". Chamber of Secrets They didn't have a reserve player. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From petalla at express56.com Wed May 7 21:30:10 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:30:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione, Neville, Harry need thicker skin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57266 It seems that these students have been the victoms of harsh language from the teachers in Hogwarts. Does anyone but me see this as a "need"? Hermione needs to have a bit of her "know it all" attitude crumpled. Neville needs a certain amount of help to over come what it is that afflicts his memory and performance (sometimes the extra help gets a bit agrivating as we see when McGonaggal snaps in GofF). Harry??? Well, Harry is Harry. He's not a "know it all", he's not stuck on himself or his "fame", nor is he someone who tries to use his "fame" to help him in situations. However, he is up against Voldy and his Death Eaters. Who is the teacher who gives Harry the most problems? Snape. Snape was a Death Eater, he also understands Harry's importance (although he seems not to like that this importance is tied to a young boy who looks like someone he hated). Snape has proven many times that he will protect Harry (even in the Shreeking House--vindictive or not (and ulterior motives or not)--He was there to help the students. Yes he hated James(Lupin,Black), but I think Snape feels that the best way he can help Potter is to give him a reason to hate him. He may feel that Harry needs to hate him, in order to face what he must. Peggy From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Wed May 7 20:28:45 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:28:45 -0000 Subject: OotP not to be in paperback??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57267 I was in a Border's Bookstore today and was told by the clerk that books 5-7 will never be issued in paperback, and that the seventh book will be issued only as part of a boxed set. I find all that very hard to believe, but wondered what anyone else has heard? ~Diane (who never buys hardbacks and is VERY upset) From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed May 7 20:53:59 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 20:53:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > Harry hates the spotlight. He doesn't like everyone focused on him > and prefers to be one of the crowd, most of the time. He certainly > didn't want to be Triwizard Champion, and often fantasized about > sitting up in the stands with his friends. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong -- I don't have access to the text this minute -- but I believe there's a scene in GoF after the tournament announcement in which Harry *does* imagine himself as Triwizard Champion. I think it's after the welcome feast when everyone has gone back to the dormitories, and there's some indication that Harry wasn't the only one having the champion fantasy. Ersatz Harry, who probably would have fit better in Ravenclaw himself From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Wed May 7 21:01:48 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 16:01:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Memory Charms and why they bother me. (WAS: Is there anything in the HP world th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030507155807.00b958a8@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57269 edisbevan recently mentioned: >There are also, come to think of it, some instances where memory >charms are NOT used. Aunt Marge has her memory modified so she >doesn't remember getting blown up - but nothing in Canon about the >Dursleys being charmed to forget seeing that incident. Nothing about >the Dursleys being charmed to forget their collison with wizarding in >their own sitting room in GoF. Harry has to return to a Dursley >hosuehold with full memory of a number of things... My guess would be that, since Petunia is the sister of a Witch and the custodial aunt of a Wizard, the MoM knows she (and her family) are well aware of the WW and don't see any need for her (or the family) to have their memories altered. Similarly, Hermione's parents have probably witnessed more than a bit of magic in their day, because of their Witch daughter, but I don't believe they'd have their memories altered any as a result. I think it's more likely that the memory charms are used in situations where someone who has not had previous contact with the WW and is unlikely to have any future contact with it is suddenly exposed to it. Altering their memory can protect them and the WW. For others, though, who have Witches or Wizards who live in the same house with them, it's not seen as necessary (or practical) since they're pretty much used to it, whether they like it or not.... JMO Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From NoaniFMI at aol.com Wed May 7 20:34:07 2003 From: NoaniFMI at aol.com (NoaniFMI at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:34:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Memory Charms and why they bother me. (WAS: Is there ... Message-ID: <12b.296cfc01.2beac7bf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57270 In a message dated 5/7/2003 3:25:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk writes: > "Tom Wall" wrote: > > Memory Charms, and their frequent use in the WW, bother me, I > think, more than just about anything else that we've seen to date. > > > "Edis" replies > Yes it is a thought, all that wiping clean. A big dramatic point in > Orwell's 1984 is the way the Ministry of Truth alters historic > records... some similar threads here? > > There are also, come to think of it, some instances where memory > charms are NOT used. Aunt Marge has her memory modified so she > doesn't remember getting blown up - but nothing in Canon about the > Dursleys being charmed to forget seeing that incident. Nothing about > the Dursleys being charmed to forget their collison with wizarding in > their own sitting room in GoF. Harry has to return to a Dursley > hosuehold with full memory of a number of things... > > Just wondering if this memory-charm free zone is significant in plot > terms... maybe the Old Magic depends on memories not being > obliviated... There seems to be no real reason to obliviate the (muggle) families of Hogwarts students-they are already moderately familiar with the magical world. L.I.W.Y. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Wed May 7 21:01:42 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:01:42 -0500 Subject: Voldemort's Comment in the Graveyard Scene Message-ID: <1052341302.3eb9743683e46@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 57271 > Quoting Christina > > In Chapter 33, "The Death Eaters" GoF, US Edition Voldemort > > says, "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three > > dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will > > pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be > > killed, of course..." > > "Avery--from what I've heard he wormed his way out of > > trouble by saying that he'd been acting under the Imperius > > Curse--he's still at large." Now do you guys think that > > maybe Voldemort was actually referring to HIM as opposed to > > Severus? Maybe that was thrown in there to set us off on > > the wrong track? What do YOU guys think? Possible or am I > > grasping at straws, here? Amber: Actually, Avery returns to the Death Eater scene. He's the Death Eater that Voldemort puts the imperious curse on. it's on page 648 GoF, US paperback. V says--"Get up, Avery...Stand up. You ask for forgiveness? So Avery was actually there...although i've kinda wondered if it could be Fudge who has left forever. ~~~Amber~~~ From luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 21:31:21 2003 From: luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com (luv_lotr2) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:31:21 -0000 Subject: The Arts at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20030507063443.83097.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57272 Tyler wrote: When we are not in the > studio, as often as not you'll find artists in our > local library, bookstore or museum, doing research. me: Good point! Now that I think about it, it is true that much art out there is based on things we "know" about or things we've read about and would like to express through art. Tyler: like if you photographed an inanimate > object, like an empty chair? Would the chair in the > photo move? Maybe you would see the person who last > sat in it. > Where does the ability to show motion lie-in the > photograph iself or in the subject of the photo? me: interesting! A good question to ask JKR! tyler:> > The wizarding world seems pretty creative to me. It > may be that creativity is a given among wizards and as > such doesn't warrent actual instruction (unlike us > muggles who like to dismiss creativity as useless and > horror of horors, 'feminine'). There has to be > creative wizards around-who made those paintings? me: yes that was my thought. There seems to be a lot of photographs, paintings, even the architecture in Hogwarts are all types of art! Maybe in a future book, we'll see another type of "art" class besides the "dark arts" ;o) "luv lotr2" From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 7 22:05:58 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 00:05:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP not to be in paperback??? References: Message-ID: <006701c314e4$d79dfc20$7f096750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57274 Diane wrote: I was in a Border's Bookstore today and was told by the clerk that books 5-7 will never be issued in paperback, and that the seventh book will be issued only as part of a boxed set. I find all that very hard to believe, but wondered what anyone else has heard? Me (Izaskun): Well, I don't know about that, but I don't think it's a very reliable source of information. Paperback editions are usually released later than hard cover's. ANd I think it's a bit early to assure that they won't be issued in paperback, or that any book will be issued only as parto of a boxed set. We'll have to wait a least 4 or 5 years till book 7 is published, I don't think Bloomsbury or Scholastic have decided yet about that. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 7 22:10:09 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 00:10:09 +0200 Subject: Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis Message-ID: <007001c314e5$6d40b790$7f096750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57275 Bloomsbury have released a copy of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone translated into Latin. I think some of you might be interested. Same cover, hardback edition. link. http://www.bloomsbury.com/BookCatalog/ProductItem.asp?S=&sku=22042166&EmailMe=&mscssid=UH4BC19HNK3N8P4UQ4N9CALRGTA7AP7C These people will never cease to amaze me. I'm thinking about buying and practising my forgotten latin, could be fun. Instead of translating the Eneid, I could practice with Harry. LOL Cheers, Izaskun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Wed May 7 16:58:14 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:58:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Arts at Hogwarts Message-ID: <1c6.9583689.2bea9526@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57276 When I read the Subject line, I immediately thought the art IN Hogwarts, which raised a question for me. When talking in the halls.... even when speaking under the invisibility cloak, couldn't the art hear the Trio, or anyone else for that matter? And, if so, does the art travel to the art in Dumbledore's office to fill him in on the goings-on inside the castle? -snuffles, now thinking about moving talking pictures From jodel at aol.com Wed May 7 22:25:49 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:25:49 EDT Subject: Riddle's motives (was LV's Mudblood Ancestry) Message-ID: <17e.1a61b653.2beae1ed@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57277 Tom Wall reminds us; << "[Lord Voldemort] was a name that I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course. You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name forever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out my mother was a witch? No, Harry ? I fashioned myself a new name, a name I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in the world!" >> Well, while it is unquestionable that some of his first followers knew his original name. But it is not *altogether* outside of possibility that they did not know -- even then -- that his father was actually a Muggle. The young Tom Riddle was well able to keep his own secrets. They know he was raised in a Muggle orphanage, because he was born outside the wizarding world and his mother had died the day he was born, leaving him in the hands of the Muggle authorities. They probably know that he never knew his father, and may have known that that father had abandoned him and his mother. But he could readily have let them all believe that his father was a wizard too and that his mother had gone off to live among the Muggles after her husband left her. On another issue, the form of the name that he adopted was tied very specifically to his original ambition of becoming immortal. This ambition is nothing to inspire widespread fear in and of itself. After all, it had actually been done before -- by Nicholas Flamel. And given Riddle's general slyness, there is nothing in that summay quoted above to indicate that he confided to those early followers any intention of making himself feared throughout the wizarding world. His followers may have innocently admired him as a properly ambitious Slytherin with a laudable goal and the brilliance to quite probably carry it off. Such a public facade would be very well in keeping with the face he presented to everyone while he was still in school. "Lord Voldemort" did not surface in the ww for over a quarter century and I rather suspect that some of those followers may have forgotten that that was the name their schoolmate Riddle used to grandeloquently call himself by. And for that matter, I don't really think that LV cares squat about Muggles. His target is *wizards*. It was wizards who LEFT him to be raised in that orphanage. I've posted my own interpretation of a plausible Riddle backstory over at the Red Hen site, and it's a bit too long to repost here, although some of the early version of it was originally brought up in the Grindlewald discussion here, some months back (Tom Wall may know the post numbers, I only connect through the Digest which does not list them.) Acording to that interpretation, Grindlewald's geezers had known of the boy's existence for some years and waited for him to come to Hogwarts before they contacted him. Unfortunately for the geezers, Tom, unlike Harry had already learned not to trust *anyone* and to suspect ulterior motives on everyone's part. BY the time he reached his 5th year and found the Chamber he had seen through his mentors. What Tom Riddle ultimately intends is to wipe wizards off the face of the earth and rule alone, immortal, as a sort of vengeful god. He learned the of the loathing for mudbloods and Muggles that a certain type of pureblood harbors from his mentors. He also learned of the distrust and contempt that human wizards hold for other magical races. He is *using* them. Yes, he dispises Muggles and will do them a bad turn whenever the opportunity presents itself. But they are not his real target. There are too many of them for him to have much of an effect upon. But he traveled the world for 24 years after he killed his father and dropped out of sight. He has a very good idea of just how many wizards there are in that world and the numbers are low enough (something under a million, by my estimate) that one man with a mission and a group of willing and deluded followers can tackle with a good chance of being able to account for. So he went recruiting from among the sort of wizard with which he is most familiar (aand who frequently disgust him.). He is using their loathing of Muggles and mudbloods as a (on his part completely cynical) rallying cry, and has given them pretty much of a free pass to wreak as much havoc as they please, so long as they can keep from being caught and shut down. This has enabled him to widen his range of targets to any pureblood or halfblood -- and their families who oppose him. He also makes a point of having his followers target other wizarding families of apparant non-combatants as a way of raising terror. The more outrageous their behavior the better for his purposes. The wizarding population of Great Britain is not much above 30,000. Even if Riddle's followers number no more than 1000, the odds are excellent of being able to produce a state of emergency which will bring the whole into an unworkable mess and make the MoM vulnerable to overthrow. Once Britain had Ireland are under his control, he will use this enlarged power base to carry his apparant adgenda to Europe. Internally various pogroms will continue to whittle away resistance and keep the rest of the population obedient. Many will leave the country. This will not matter. The worldwide population of wizards is thinly spread. He will get to them in good time. He *has* time. His European campaign will be assisted by sympathisers, and there may be areas with a large enough number of such sympathisers for him to leave them to it, so long as they accept his direction in certain key events. From Europe his campaign will spread to the Middle East, and North Africa, with various smaller campaigns in sub-saharan Africa. Particularly those areas with a large European component to their society. From there he will move on to Asia, Australia and the Americas. He will also be required to fend off various campaigns launched from the Americas and Australia spearheaded by exiles who fled his regime in the British Isles and Europe, but the thinness of the wizarding population will tend to make these attempts a strain for their organizers. This will probably take at least another 150-300 years. But he has time. Once he has the wizarding world under his control, the pogroms will continue until only those who fully support him remain. And then he will give them to the Dementors. Mission acomplished. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Wed May 7 22:25:59 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:25:59 EDT Subject: The Arts at Hogwarts Message-ID: <1c4.9407dcc.2beae1f7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57278 << The "other" Mrs. Weasley wrote: Does it see odd to anyone else, but me, that Hogwarts is lacking in the arts? No music, literature or artistry hardly at all! >> Not when you stop to think that the ww does not operate with the same social priorities as the mundane one. We compare Hogwarts and the wizarding worrld with late 20th century Britain and America. We ought to be comparing them to 17th or perhaps mid -18th century standards. Hogwarts not only does not feature the Arts, it is *very* thin on even basic academics. About the only "academic" class they have is History of Magic. It is a vocational school. A training academy for Magic, and *only* Magic. With the minor exception of those sciences which assist in the working of Magic, such as Astronomy. (It stands to reason that many magical processes depend upon specific relationships of the planets to fully succeed in their intentions and some astronomical relationships can adversly affect various types of spells.) After all. wizards are long-lived. If they have an interest in the arts they will have time to cultivate this *after* Hogwarts. Although it is odd that there is no attention paid to Music, given that chanting is bound to be a component of a whole branch of magic. -JOdel From t.forch at mail.dk Wed May 7 22:24:27 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 00:24:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507115910.00dba440@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507235722.00e1eaf0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57279 At 21:42 07-05-03 +0000, Steve wrote: >bboy_mn: > >I was making a comparison, and that comparison was NOT breaking the >rules is a higher stage of moral development than obeying the rules. >Following your conscience and a universal set of moral principles, and >doing what is right independant of the rules is a higher stage of >moral development than blindly and unquestioningly obeying the rules. To which I have agreed. I apparently misunderstood your position, for which I apologise. >Moral right is a higher moral standard than legal right. Remember that >everything that is immoral is not against the law/rules, and >everything that is against the law in not necessarily immoral. Even >when things are legal, you still have a higher obligation to follow >your conscience. Yet there are things that people consider right that I am glad are against the law. You can't put the individual's conscience above the law /always/ - pedophiles are actually capable of defending their actions as morally right (while I consider their acts disgusting). The point I want to make in this connection is that good laws have the added moral strength of being expressions of the moral views of the society and those have, IMO, a higher moral status that individual conscience. On the other hand there is bad laws just as there are people with reprehensible moral standards. On one hand one shouldn't just blindly and unquestioningly obey the laws, but on the other hand one shouldn't accept people breaking those laws just because their conscience tell them to. >I won't go through your post or the others item by item, instead I'll >just make some general comments directed at the subject. I'll just take up the few points I don't agree completely with. >When Harry sneaks off to Hogsmeade, he can't see the harm in it. When Harry sneaks off to Hogsmeade he knows that it is wrong. He knows that Black is supposed to be after him, he knows that Black has been seen not far from the school and he knows that the Ministry and the school authorities are working hard to protect /him/. If he had listened to his conscience, he would have stayed at the castle. >If you think kids will respond to prefect little Sunday school >stories, you are sadly mistaken. The reason kids get some much >out of these books is because the books have degrees of moral >ambiguity. I'm frankly a bit surprised over this. I never intended to imply that I thought Harry's transgressions detracted from the books in any way - we certainly agree that the books would be extremely boring if he never broke any rules at all. /If/ Rowling's position to the various transgressions can be read in the amount of reward/punishment he recieves for them, then I don't agree entirely with her - under that assumption she seems more accepting of rule-breaking than I am, but that really is a minor point. >This is the story of a flawed little boy, frightened, abused, and >alone in the world. A little boy who shoulders enough to crush most >grown men, and shoulder it he does, and he does it well. He makes >mistakes, but then don't we all. In the end, we must step back from >nitpicking every little mistake Harry makes and condeming him for it, >and look at the overal character of the boy and see what kind of boy >he is. I would say he is a boy of strong moral character with great >courage and determination, and he is kind, considerate, selfless, and >caring. For all that, I can forgive a few mistakes. I /like/ Harry's flaws - he is sufficiently unbelieveable as it is and that might be why I prefer to emphasise his faults rather than gloss them over, which I feel you are doing here. I relish it when Harry is stupid or immoral - it makes me better capable of believing in him. Troels From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed May 7 22:41:53 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:41:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow References: Message-ID: <004701c314e9$dbd63550$73ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57280 > > > I think it's a very good possibility that he was there, that he'd > > gone to prevent it, even if under the guise of servant of Voldy, > and > > when that failed DID try to stop it. > > > > Mel > > I may be out of my mind (and probably am), but I do believe Snape was > there that night. There is no proof of this (yet---or maybe not > ever). > Someone told Lily to take Harry and run--it was a voice that Harry > thinks could have been his father's. This may just be because he > wants it to be his father's voice. > Harry wanted to believe that the Patronis that came from accross the > lake ( P of A) was his father protecting him and his friends. He saw > who he thought was his father---it was actually himself. > > Harry desperatly wants to have his parents by his side, and his mind > knows this (the "reflection" in the mirror (C of S)). I think he > will asume that any kind of protection that he receives is from them, > or from Dumbledore. I'm sure these are not the only instances he > will hear, see,smell...or even touch his parents. > > always, > Peggy I've seen a few people speculate that someone other than James told Lily to take Harry and run. But I don't see how it could have been Snape or Lupin, if this is the case. One would think that Harry woud recognize their voices, especially Snape's, since he has known him for 2.5 years. The case could be made for Sirius, as Harry hadn't met him yet. Some of this speculation has been sparked by the way Lupin reacted when Harry said he heard his father's voice. I think it was just a reaction to discovering that Harry actually had memories of this event. Lupin *was* a very good friend of the family, and to find out that their son's worst memory was their murder might have come as a shock to him. He has probably imagined that night in his mind for the past 12 years, and now to hear even a little about what really transpired... It probably brought it all back to him, making him react that way. I think this is the explanation for his behavior, not that he was surprised because he believed/knew James to not be present that night. As for a fifth person being present but *not* the voice Harry says is his father's...time will tell. For the record, though, I don't believe Snape was there at all, because if he had known, he would have tried to prevent what happened. I think, after he delivered the tip on the hit at the Potters', he tried to find out more but was unable. I have no idea what he was doing on this night, but I do believe that he found out what was really going on only when it was too late. Hmmm....yet another interesting thing to think about. What *was* Snape doing if he wasn't at the Potters', and when and from whom did he find out about their death and ultimate betrayal? Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From magsthomas at yahoo.com Wed May 7 22:46:03 2003 From: magsthomas at yahoo.com (Margaret Thomas) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OOP: Potential Gryffindor Quidditch Captain (was Re: Harry's importance and threats...) In-Reply-To: <1052345292.3511.8107.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030507224603.5284.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57281 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > [Harry] seems to > be chosen for > everything throughout the series, whether he wants > those things or > not. I think it would suck if Harry was asked to be > Quidditch captain.... I completely agree with your thoughts on why Harry *shouldn't* become captain (philosophically speaking), but particularly this one: > On a more personal reaction, I'd dislike for Harry > to be captain > because I'd think JKR was really pushing it. I > adore Harry but how > much can the kid take? How much of a super kid is > he supposed to be? If OOP is as pivotal to the entire Potter-verse as JKR has indicated, I can't see her making Harry captain -- he's got enough on his plate with Voldemort at large and various other loved ones (Hagrid, Sirius) on essential and (likely) dangerous missions. While Harry's the key protagonist, I'm confident we can count on JKR to continue drawing from the potential that rests in other Gryffindors (ex. Neville -- not for Quidditch Captain, mind you! ;) We'd be doomed after that incident in PS with Madame Hooch!). Having Harry become *captain* would just seem overkill :} We get the picture that he's a special kid... That, and being Seeker -- even flying in general -- is Harry's means of escape / unwinding. Sure, there's an annoying Malfoy following his every move, but he enjoys putting Malfoys in their place ;) Let Harry enjoy the freedom of being Seeker without the added responsibilities as Captain. I like the already mentioned idea of the twins becoming co-captains -- sure, they're only at Hogwarts for a short while longer, but they'd provide a *very* different captaining style to Wood! And lots of comic relief potential to boot! I'd also like to see a *FEMALE* Quidditch Captain (in *any* house)... > (Izaskun): > Well, I have always considered that being captain > of the quidditch team is not necesarily a matter of > seniorship, but a matter of skill...I think Ron'd be > a perfect captain. It's his first year as a player, > granted, but he's nuts about quidditch...So, why not > Ron??? Why not Ron?! While I'd love to see it this year, I'm inclined to say they won't promote a complete team newbie to Captain -- star Keeper potential or otherwise. A few OOP scenarios I can envision: a) The twins are co-captains -- hilarity and chaos ensue. We get a new captain in Book 6. b) One of the Gryffindor women becomes captain for this year only. We get a new captain in Book 6. c) Harry is captain. One or more of the following cause him to resign as captain during or at the conclusion of OOP -- overall stress from or need to focus on defeating Voldemort; overall stress from a loved one being badly injured, dead, or presumed dead (this death that's supposedly coming); overall stress created in his relationship with Ron by receiving attention as "The Boy Who Lived" *and* Captain; he knows Ron really wants the captain duties more than he does d) Ron (in spite of my stellar gut instinct ;)) is chosen captain in his first year on the team. Truly, I would love to see Ron recognized as Quidditch Captain -- it's the sort of accolade he's starving for emotionally. Maybe he finds out it's not all it's cracked up to be...maybe it's everything he hoped it would be. But he'd have the experience and STOP dwelling on being the Weasley who hasn't yet achieved something. (I disagree with his perception, but oh well... it's one of his character traits)...I'd rather he recognize his value in simply being Ron. - Mags __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From innermurk at catlover.com Wed May 7 22:43:44 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:43:44 -0000 Subject: "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importan... In-Reply-To: <17b.19e69d4c.2beac4e2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, NoaniFMI at a... wrote: > Bill (mongo62aa at y...) > > No, that is not the case. After the fact, when DD was speaking with Harry he > said (paraphrase) "Only someone who wanted to find the stone-but not use it- > would be able to obtain it from the mirror." > > So it was, essentially, protected from Quirrell. > How do you know that Quirrell!Voldemort wouldn't have figured out the enchantment and been able to reverse it? He was after all (according to Dumbledore who CAST the enchantment) "One of the most brilliant students Hogwarts has ever seen" AND I've always wondered if the answer to getting it by cheating wasn't already stated in the chapter. Quirrell wonders if he should break the mirror. How do we know the stone wouldn't have come tumbling out if the mirror was broken? So, Harry might've saved the stone just in time! Innermurk From patricia at obscure.org Wed May 7 22:56:44 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Memory Charms and why they bother me. (WAS: Is there anything in the HP world th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57283 On Wed, 7 May 2003, edisbevan wrote: > Just wondering if this memory-charm free zone is significant in plot > terms... maybe the Old Magic depends on memories not being > obliviated... I have a feeling all parents and guardians of young witches and wizards are exempt from the otherwise-compulsory memory charms. They would have a very difficult time raising their children and setting reasonable limits for their kids if they couldn't remember what happens when magic is used. It would also be way too easy for kids to get out of trouble by casting a disruptive spell and waiting for the MoM to show up and wipe the last 10 minutes from their parents' minds. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 7 23:12:16 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups][OOP] Quidditch Reserves (was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507185016.00dfc860@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030507231216.88089.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57284 --- Troels Forchhammer wrote: > In that case Wood would surely have fielded > someone > as Seeker in that catastrophy match where Harry > was > missing. I prefer to believe that Wood wasn't as good a > captain > as we have been let to believe (or rather - he > was an > excellent captain, but a terrible team > manager). Lynn: I agree that if reserves were the norm, than Wood did let the team down. But, do we know that all the teams have reserves? If they did, why was Slytherin allowed not to play it's first game against Gryffindor in PoA because of Malfoy's injury? If there were reserves for the teams, the reserve should have been able to step in. Of course, that would have lost the dramatic Quidditch finale between Gryffindor and Slytherin for the Cup. Still, is that an indication that the teams don't field reserves? Yet, Lee Jordan tells us that Katie Bell was a find of Wood's, had been a reserve and moved up. So, perhaps Wood did look for reserves but there just weren't any available. You can't make people play and maybe there was no one who wanted to play Quidditch or wanted to play those positions where there weren't reserves. Lynn (who though KC Jones was a sweet guy but hated what he did to the Celtic starting 5 in 1987) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 7 23:22:17 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 23:22:17 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups][OOP] Quidditch Reserves (was Re: Harry's importance and threats In-Reply-To: <20030507231216.88089.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57285 Lynn: > I agree that if reserves were the norm, than Wood > did let the team down. But, do we know that all > the teams have reserves? If they did, why was > Slytherin allowed not to play it's first game > against Gryffindor in PoA because of Malfoy's > injury? If there were reserves for the teams, > the reserve should have been able to step in. Of > course, that would have lost the dramatic > Quidditch finale between Gryffindor and Slytherin > for the Cup. Still, is that an indication that > the teams don't field reserves? Yet, Lee Jordan > tells us that Katie Bell was a find of Wood's, > had been a reserve and moved up. So, perhaps > Wood did look for reserves but there just weren't > any available. You can't make people play and > maybe there was no one who wanted to play > Quidditch or wanted to play those positions where > there weren't reserves. > > The Quidditch Through the Ages book clearly states that only the Seeker can catch the snitch. It's a penalty for any other player to catch it. So, someone would have had to have been designated Seeker, otherwise Gryffindor's only chance would have been to get so far ahead that Ravenclaw catches the Snitch just to end the humiliation. (Obviously, more than 150 points ahead.) Keep in mind two more things. 1) Gryffindor, prior to Harry's arrival, wasn't very good as a Quidditch team for several years, which means they might not have gotten a lot of people wanting to play. 2) Harry's ascension to Seeker might have annoyed enough people who just decided "Screw this." (That's not Harry's fault, by the way, in case some of the Harry-haters want to make it so.) Darrin -- No band names here. Someone help. From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Wed May 7 23:29:23 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 23:29:23 -0000 Subject: "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importan... In-Reply-To: <17b.19e69d4c.2beac4e2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57286 Bill: For example, Harry ended up with the stone because he wanted the Stone, but not to use it. How hard would it be to find some impressionable young child to retrieve the Stone in the same manner, but who does not have the same protection as Harry had? End result: one dead child and one Stone. NoaniFMI: No, that is not the case. After the fact, when DD was speaking with Harry he said (paraphrase) "Only someone who wanted to find the stone - but not use it - would be able to obtain it from the mirror." So it was, essentially, protected from Quirrell. Bill: Um, that was what I was saying. If Quirrell could not get the Stone, then all that they had to do was find some child to remove the stone for them. Bill From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Wed May 7 21:58:15 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:58:15 -0000 Subject: Harry, Ron, Concerns and quidditch captains In-Reply-To: <002001c314df$91b3d450$7f096750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57287 Izaskun wrote:: > Well, I have always considered that being captain of the quidditch team is not necesarily a matter of seniorship, but a matter of skill, you should have charisma, be a natural leader, know the game and of course be good with the strategies. I think Ron'd be a perfect captain. It's his first year as a player, granted, but he's nuts about quidditch, he knows the game and he's very good playing chess which should mean that he's got an analytical mind, something important when playing sports, you have to be able to anticipate your rival's movements in order to prevent them. So, why not Ron??? End Quote Linda(Me): I agree. In PoA when Wood tells the team that they're not playing Slytherin - but Hufflepuff instead, he complains that their preparations have been for a team with entirely differant tactics. He then goes on to say: "They've got a new Captain and Seeker, Cedric Diggory -".(pg 168 US paper back) Cediric became the Captain in the same year that he joined the team. ( At least that's the way I read it.) Seems to me that sets a precedent that helps Ron's case. _Linda From petalla at express56.com Wed May 7 22:25:51 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:25:51 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Comment in the Graveyard Scene In-Reply-To: <1052341302.3eb9743683e46@webmail.bradley.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57288 > Actually, Avery returns to the Death Eater scene. He's the Death > Eater that Voldemort puts the imperious curse on. it's on page 648 GoF, US > paperback. V says--"Get up, Avery...Stand up. You ask for forgiveness? > So Avery was actually there...although i've kinda wondered if it > could be Fudge who has left forever. > > ~~~Amber~~~ I do not think Fudge was a Death Eater. Although,there is no evidence in the books to support that he was, or was not. He never did say that he would not fight Voldemort. As it stands after the fourth book, it seems that he will not admit or believe that V has returned. I do believe there will be more to come about this. I believe Fudge has memories of V while he was in power that he would really not like to remember. I do believe this reference to be speaking about Snape. I do not believe that he will ever turn against Dumbledore again. He has such a high reguard for the Headmaster (except when he falls victim of his passions). He also holds the well being of the students (yes, even Harry) as a priority. He is trusted by Dumbledore--where the Headmaster has seemed to have lost faith in Fudge. There is strong evidence (though it can be argued), that our Potions Master is really a good person at heart. Throughout the books, he has gone with his instinct (although that as been swayed passionately at times), and it was correct when it really came to the wire (with the exception of when his hatred for Black got the best of him). ~~~~~~~~Peggy From pjuel13 at aol.com Wed May 7 22:46:38 2003 From: pjuel13 at aol.com (pjuel13 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:46:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP not to be in paperback??? Message-ID: <11.10aed615.2beae6ce@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57289 Diane the non-hardback buyer says: >I was in a Border's Bookstore today and was told by the clerk that >books 5-7 will never be issued in paperback, and that the seventh >book will be issued only as part of a boxed set.? I find all that >very hard to believe, but wondered what anyone else has heard? I work at an indy bookshop and we've heard nothing of the sort. Our children's book specialist has been in weekly contact with her Scholastic rep. regarding book 5 and she hasn't heard a word of this. In any event it makes no sense given that the hardback sales are gauranteed to break records initially but the long term money will be (as it has been so far) in the paperbacks. I'd suggest you go back to that Borders and ask to speak to that clerk's supervisor. It sounds to me like a bored yahoo with a cruel sense of humor is getting his or her jollies by making up stories. -Stripedog [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From petalla at express56.com Wed May 7 22:54:17 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:54:17 -0000 Subject: The real worst teacher at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <15c.1e8000c9.2beab9d9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57290 > So, if that's true, what does someone who has these visions/insights/flashes > do the other 23 hours and 59 minutes a day? > [Opinion alert] He/she fakes it! You make banal predictions vague enough to > be pointed to later as "proof" of your powers. There is a certain skill > necessary to do this consistently. It's the same skill that con men and > actors have. This skill could be the "it" that Hermione doesn't have, and > (probably) doesn't want to develop. [/End opinion] > > -- Ray > Ray, I am sure that Hermione does not have this "skill". She and McGonagall do hold the same opinion of The Divination teacher. I am sure McGonagall does not have what it takes to "Unfog the future". As I am sure many in the wizarding world do not. Though Trelawney did indeed have two true predictions, this may be a very rare tallent indeed. Harry seems to have it though (dreams, daydreams...). I think Trelawney was hired because she does have some tallent, and is very learned in the styles of divination. Remember Quirrell? He was only book learned, when he took time off to get some real practical experience---he met a vampire (who he always thought would track him down), and Voldy. He was the DADA teacher for years(though we don't know exactly how long)before this-- but he had no experience in the field! I think we as readers are a little too hard on the Hogwarts teaching staff. Give them a chance! They are all there for a reason. We will see what those reasons are soon enough. Cherish these books and the time it takes for them to come out. It will be too soon when book 7 is here. I'm sure there will be many tears when all of this is over. Hang in there, and enjoy it! ~~~~~~~~~~~ Peggy From indyattic at earthlink.net Wed May 7 22:52:03 2003 From: indyattic at earthlink.net (indyattic) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:52:03 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57291 bboy_mn swears that a Ravenclaw didn't write this for him: "If this was a story about a saint; about a boy who never did anything wrong, who always had the perfect answer to every problem then it would be no story at all. If you think kids will respond to prefect little Sunday school stories, you are sadly mistaken. The reason kids get some much out of these books is because the books have degrees of moral ambiguity. " (me:) The reason I get so much out of it is because I think JKR is a brilliant writer. All of her characters are very complex, very three dimensional. There's some good, some bad, in every one of her creations, with the possible exception of LV. That's one of the most amazing things about her writing, IMHO. Angie From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Wed May 7 23:00:14 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:00:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP not to be in paperback??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030507175418.00bc2a20@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57292 mmemalkin recently mentioned: >I was in a Border's Bookstore today and was told by the clerk that >books 5-7 will never be issued in paperback, and that the seventh >book will be issued only as part of a boxed set. I find all that >very hard to believe, but wondered what anyone else has heard? I've not heard anything, but one of the reasons that books come out in paperback is because they're much cheaper to produce, and sell considerably more copies than the hardback copy does. I can't imagine that any publisher would want to cut into the potential market for a book like OoP or the other HP books by refusing to publish them in paperback, nor does it seem likely that they'd release book 7 ONLY as part of a boxed set. One thing publishers have to keep in mind is that if customers refuse to purchase a copy of a book, but wish to read it anyway, they can always get it from the library, or buy it second hand. Because those options are both legal and widely used, it is not in a publisher's best interest to make a potentially popular book too difficult to purchase. I know that film companies often priced video tape copies of movies extremely high, so that the tape would get a lot of rental business before reducing the price for sales, but that was because they get a portion of the rental fees each time the movies is checked out, so it was in their interest to maximize those profits as much as possible. When a book is checked out of a library, however, the book company gets nothing - same if its sold 2nd hand - so their only route to earning money is to sell as many copies as they can in any number of format... Now, I would think that they may delay releasing the paperbacks of the last three books for a while, to maximize the number of hardback copies they can sell - but I can't see them just never releasing paperback at all. As I said, though, I've not heard anything specific, and this is just my speculation.... Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Wed May 7 23:26:51 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Memory Charms and why they bother me. (WAS: Is there anything in the HP world th In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030507155807.00b958a8@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: <20030507232651.84839.qmail@web13107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57293 Kriselda Jarnsaxa wrote: I think it's more likely that the memory charms are used in situations where someone who has not had previous contact with the WW and is unlikely to have any future contact with it is suddenly exposed to it. Altering their memory can protect them and the WW. For others, though, who have Witches or Wizards who live in the same house with them, it's not seen as necessary (or practical) since they're pretty much used to it, whether they like it or not.... And here's me [Odile] chiming in: My thought is that memory charms are used on those Muggles who are most likely to expose the WW. Take, for example, that bloke who found the OoP books in the field the other day - what was his first reaction? He blabbed it all to his friends. His friends' advice? Tell the sleaziest tabloid in Britain! The Dursleys, on the other hand, are desperate to be viewed as "normal" (whatever that is) and went so far as to pretend that Petunia never had a sister, never mind reveal the fact that Lily was a witch. That would be too humiliating. Hermione's folks (as well as other Muggle families of witches & wizards), OTOH, are sympathetic that the WW has to be kept secret from Muggles, and therefore are trusted enough to keep their secrets, no memory charm needed. Just my two knuts. Odile Going cross-eyed reading all these posts. ^_^ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed May 7 23:56:33 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 23:56:33 -0000 Subject: "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importance and...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57294 "karmakaze_kk" wrote:(in message 57230) <> Now me, Fred Waldrop; If I am following your argument correctly, you are saying that Harry and company need not to have risk life and limb, and everything would have been alright. Am I close? If this is the case, what makes you think that Quirrel would have been caught? If Harry had done nothing, Quirrel/Voldemort might not have gotten the stone, but there is nothing to suggest anyone would have known Voldemort was at Hogwarts. Nor is there anything to suggest that Quirrel would not be back at Hogwarts the next year. Why wouldn't he? No one would know he was anyone other than "pppoor sttudddering Pperfessor Quirrl", would they? So, even if you believe that Harry put the stone in more harm by going, he also showed everyone whom Quirrl really was supporting. (plus who he was bringing onto the grounds of Hogwarts under his smelly turbon) Fred Waldrop From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed May 7 19:32:49 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:32:49 -0000 Subject: Why do they have Astronomy at HW? In-Reply-To: <20030507.102952.-541603.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > I was thinking about a reply to the reply to my "Why have a Secret > Keeper?" post last night, and something struck me as very odd: > > Why do they learn Astronomy at Hogwarts? If it's astronomy the science, > why that Muggle science and no others? (Chemistry and physics make more > sense, they would relate to Potions and casting certain spells that > involve movement.) If "Astronomy" is really more what we would call > "astrology", then that doesn't make sense either, because they cover that > in Divination. > I think they learn for two reasons. 1. As a prep in case they decide to take divination. 2. In many magical systems, timing and position of the stars is important when casting a spell. Maybe, some of the more complicated incantations involve this. Serena (who is happy to finally be off moderated status!) From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 8 00:33:53 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 00:33:53 -0000 Subject: The Diary; LV's mudblood ancestry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57297 Ladi lyndi wrote: > > > My big question is not if Lucius Malfoy knows if > > Riddle and Voldemort are the same person but why > > Malfoy took so long to use the diary. Why not > > use the diary soon after Voldemort disappeared? > > Why not use it before Draco arrived at Hogwarts? > > Could it be the Lucius was communicating with > > Diary!Riddle and it was decided to wait until > > Harry showed up at Hogwarts so that Riddle could > > kill Harry and then go get his future self and be > > restored? > > Echa replied: > >I always got the impression that the Diary didn't really have much > >to do with Harry, but rather it was all about Lucius pulling out a > >card to play against Arthur Weasley in response to the Muggle > >Protection Act. Had nothing to do with Voldemort, it was just > >vengance, plain and simple. > > Maria: > I'd have to say, yes and no. I think that jeopardising the Muggle > Protection Act was Lucius's primary motivation, but really he was > killing several birds with one stone - getting rid of Dumbledore and > several Muggle-borns as well as helping out Arthur with his new law. Valkly Speaking: I disagree indupitably. Dobby was adamant in his pleas with Harry that the planting of the diary was intended to bring direct consequences on Harry. In my opinion, as I have mentioned in other postings. I don't think that Lucius is a very powerful wizard. He appears to get by relying quite heavily on his wits and not his wizardry. I dont believe that Lucius would have the courage to open and converse with the diary. Although, it was obvious that he was aware that the essence of a powerful Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort, was stored within it. He smuggled it into Hogwarts using a Weasley child for the reason of discrediting Arthur, quite probably. However, his prime motivation was to unleash Lord Voldemort so he could do away with Harry. Lucius is threatened by a great many wizards, not least of all Dumbledore and Harry Potter. The diary, for him, was a weapon, to use against the more powerful wizards that threaten his rise to superiority in the wizarding world. I believe his plan was something like this: Find a child in Hogwarts to give the diary to. Once it is in the hands of a curious, foolhardy, first year student witch or wizard, the power of Lord Voldemort will be released to take its revenge on Hogwarts. Riddle could do away with Dumbledore, or at least discredit him enough to have him shamed out of his position of influence in the wizard world. He could also take on the inexperienced Potter boy and get rid of him too. I think the murder of mudbloods was inconsequential to Lucius, or at most, a sideshow to the main event. Which would be, to get Tom Riddle to do his dirty work for him and take on the big guns at Hogwarts. He then planned to work together with Voldemort to restore the DE movement to power through Hogwarts. He also made an assumption that his hand in freeing Tom Riddle would bring him favouritism with his master LV. And finally, Why Ginny? It was a bonus that the feckless Ginny was available to him right at the particular moment that he planned to dispose of the diary. Why not take down Arthur Weasley while he was at it? You think so? I think so. Valky From susannahlm at yahoo.com Thu May 8 00:32:58 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 00:32:58 -0000 Subject: Hurt/Comfort Rankings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57298 Captain Cindy wrote: > Derannimer challenged: >> Well, but as I understand it, Hurt/Comfort doesn't have to be >>based on physical pain. (I actually prefer it to be based on >>emotional or psychological or spiritual pain.) > Oh, *ugh!* > Now Hurt/Comfort is the same thing as a bad hair day? The cure is a > ride on the psychiatrist's couch? "Just lean back and tell us all > about your *feelings,* Severus." Don't take this the wrong way or > anything, but that is so *Not Bangy!* Hurt-Comfort is not a theory. It is a common reader-response *phenomenom.* It doesn't have to Bang. Human behaviour doesn't always have to Bang, Captain. > Look, Harry had lots of emotional pain before the graveyard scene. > But as The Elkins herself once said, it was the graveyard scene > where Harry has all of that physical pain when the female readers > rushed to his side. But they've been *primed* for it--and I think that a lot of the younger female readers have been crushing on Harry for a while before Graveyard. Graveyard was just the cherry on the sundae. ; ) > To tell you truth, when Harry and Ron were having their spat in > GoF, I didn't care much about Harry's precious feelings. But when > Harry threw that badge and nailed Ron in the forehead? I *felt* > that! > I say Hurt/Comfort has to have a major element of physical pain for > it to count. Guilt is nice, but only layered on top of the physical > pain. And yes, lying on the Azkaban cold stone floor with other > prisoners making so much darn noise that you can't sleep at night > counts as physical pain in my book. Why? Seriously, why? Do you think that emotional pain isn't as severe, or can't be as destructive to a person, in the long run? Because I think it can be. (Didn't you ever crush on Heathcliff? Just wondering.) Anyway, _I Hurt-Comfort on Snape_. I don't *care* if you say that I can't, I *do.* So apparently emotional pain *does* cut it. > Derannimer continued: >> > head> > Hey, we may have to take Prince of Lies for another spin, now that > you mention it. ;-) Oh, no. Cindy, that theory is positively slanderous. >Derannimer cried: >> Elkins! Where's Elkins? Here we are having a Hurt/Comfort >>discussion and Captain Cindy's making very rude Personal Remarks >>about me and the blasted Hurt/Comfort *expert* is nowhere in sight! > Bwahahahah! > Elkins is not here to save you this time, My Pretty! You will have > to make the case for Hurt!Snape all on your own. Errr. . . Captain? You, er. . . seem to have turned into Long John Silver. You may already be aware of this fact, but I just thought I'd mention it. > And just to make this difficult, I submit that Snape *enjoyed* all > those cruel DE adventures before he spied for Dumbledore. He wasn't > hurt, and he has no guilt. So there's nothing worth comforting down > in Snape's cold, damp dungeon. Of *course* he enjoyed it! He's a vicious sadist! Why else do you think he's *got* guilt? If he hadn't enjoyed it--and if he didn't think he might *still* enjoy it--then he'd be able to excuse himself! Anyway, hang on a minute! What do you mean, "he has no guilt?" What do you think that business with Egg and Eye was about then? > Cindy -- looking for a way to get Fudge on the list, but coming up > empty Derannimer -- wondering why anyone who wants to get Cornelius Fudge on the list would object to the inclusion of Snape From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Thu May 8 00:41:36 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:36 -0000 Subject: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <003e01c314e2$dd658c10$7f096750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57299 > Errol wrote: I find it hard to believe that Wood played one player short. Where's the canon for that? SS 302: "You missed the last Quidditch match, we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you". Oh no, they had a seeker all right, just not a very talented one. I'd go so far as to say they have reserves for the positions, but they are just not considered important enough to mention specifically. Though it wouldn't have hurt JKR to tell us who *did* play in Harry's place. (sigh) Me rubeus_hagrid at w...>(Izaskun)wrote: "Harry shifted guiltily in his seat. He had been unconscious in the hospital wing for the final match of the previous year, meaning that Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst defeat in three hundred years". Chamber of Secrets They didn't have a reserve player. Now me, Fred Waldrop: I cannot remember any other passage that speaks of a reserve team, I know that in SS (US)page 186, it says "...a neat pass to Alicia Spinnet, a good find of Oliver Wood's, last year only a reserve...". (I seem to remember a few more passages, but can not put my finger on them right now) So, There might no longer have a reserve team, but up until Harry began Hogwarts, there was one. Fred Waldrop From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 8 01:07:28 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 01:07:28 -0000 Subject: The Diary; LV's mudblood ancestry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57301 Echa wrote: > I always got the impression that the Diary didn't really have much > to do with Harry, but rather it was all about Lucius pulling out a > card to play against Arthur Weasley in response to the Muggle > Protection Act. Had nothing to do with Voldemort, it was just > vengance, plain and simple. Maria wrote: > I'd have to say, yes and no. I think that jeopardising the Muggle > Protection Act was Lucius's primary motivation, but really he was > killing several birds with one stone - getting rid of Dumbledore > and several Muggle-borns as well as helping out Arthur with his new > law. Valky Speaking: (all further quoted material from Valky's post) > I disagree indupitably. Dobby was adamant in his pleas with Harry > that the planting of the diary was intended to bring direct > consequences on Harry. Are you *sure* Dobby wasn't just telling Harry some story that Lucius Malfoy fed him? You know, sort of like Dobby "overheard" Fake Moody telling McGonagall about gillyweed in GoF? > In my opinion, as I have mentioned in other postings. I don't think > that Lucius is a very powerful wizard. Well, we haven't seen Dumbledore do much difficult magic either, except for the Patronus in PoA, so I don't think that we can conclude that Lucius isn't very powerful. > He appears to get by relying > quite heavily on his wits and not his wizardry. I don't think we've seen Cunning!Lucius either. I mean, acting through others isn't necessarily a sign of cunning, is it? Voldemort does call him "my slippery friend," but really, is there *anyone* who's met the man think that he was "just Imperio'd?" I'm really not so sure if he's all that smart. He has a lot of influence, to be sure, enough to compensate for a hypothetical lack of brilliance. > I dont believe that > Lucius would have the courage to open and converse with the diary. > Although, it was obvious that he was aware that the essence of a > powerful Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort, was stored within it > He smuggled it into Hogwarts using a Weasley child for the reason > of discrediting Arthur, quite probably. Agreed. > However, his prime motivation was to unleash Lord Voldemort so he > could do away with Harry. To reiterate, I think that his primary motivation was to make Arthur's law fall through, but that he was aware that he'd be accomplishing multiple goals. Really, why would he feel the need to do away with Harry, especially since he's no reason to believe that Diary!Riddle would be trying to do it, instead of sic'ing the Basilisk on Muggle-borns? Lucius is quite comfortable the way he is now. > Lucius is threatened by a great many wizards, not least of all > Dumbledore and Harry Potter. The diary, for him, was a weapon, to > use against the more powerful wizards that threaten his rise to > superiority in the wizarding world. How is he threatened by Dumbledore and Harry Potter? > I believe his plan was something like this: > Find a child in Hogwarts to give the diary to. Once it is in the > hands of a curious, foolhardy, first year student witch or wizard, > the power of Lord Voldemort will be released to take its revenge on > Hogwarts. Riddle could do away with Dumbledore, or at least > discredit him enough to have him shamed out of his position of > influence in the wizard world. He could also take on the > inexperienced Potter boy and get rid of him too. I think the murder > of mudbloods was inconsequential to Lucius, or at most, a sideshow > to the main event. Again, I don't think that Lucius had any reason to believe that Riddle would be interested in taking on Harry. The last time the Basilisk was released, a Muggle-born girl died - that's all. Riddle himself stated that he wanted to rid the school of Muggle-borns. But I agree with you that the murder of Muggle-borns wasn't something Lucius was particularly interested in - it was simply a side dish. > Which would be, to get Tom Riddle to do his dirty work for him and > take on the big guns at Hogwarts. > He then planned to work together with Voldemort to restore the DE > movement to power through Hogwarts. He also made an assumption that > his hand in freeing Tom Riddle would bring him favouritism with his > master LV. You know, I'm so not sure that Lucius knew all the particulars of the diary magic... > And finally, Why Ginny? It was a bonus that the feckless Ginny was > available to him right at the particular moment that he planned to > dispose of the diary. Why not take down Arthur Weasley while he was > at it? Lucius comes, picks a fight... nah. He planned it. To quote bboy_mn, that's my story and I'm sticking to it... unless someone manages to convince me otherwise. ;-) Maria From meboriqua at aol.com Thu May 8 01:16:10 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 01:16:10 -0000 Subject: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong -- I don't have access to the text this minute -- but I believe there's a scene in GoF after the tournament announcement in which Harry *does* imagine himself as Triwizard Champion. I think it's after the welcome feast when everyone has gone back to the dormitories, and there's some indication that Harry wasn't the only one having the champion fantasy.> Oh, he did indeed do that but fantasizing was all it was. There was no evidence that Harry really wanted to put his name in the goblet. I think he had fun talking with his friends about what it would be like if he won - naturally. All the fun was taken out of it when someone else put his name in the goblet. --jenny from ravenclaw ********************************* From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu May 8 01:15:09 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 20:15:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP not to be in paperback??? References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030507175418.00bc2a20@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: <006201c314ff$4577c900$3d81560c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 57303 mmemalkin recently mentioned: >I was in a Border's Bookstore today and was told by the clerk that >books 5-7 will never be issued in paperback, and that the seventh >book will be issued only as part of a boxed set. I find all that >very hard to believe, but wondered what anyone else has heard? From: Kriselda Jarnsaxa I've not heard anything, but one of the reasons that books come out in paperback is because they're much cheaper to produce, and sell considerably more copies than the hardback copy does. I can't imagine that any publisher would want to cut into the potential market for a book like OoP or the other HP books by refusing to publish them in paperback, nor does it seem likely that they'd release book 7 ONLY as part of a boxed set. ----Me---- I have several authors that I like to read. The pattern that I have noticed is that when the next book of a series is due to come out in hardback, the most current one will be released in paperback before the new one hits the shelves. I think it helps increase the sales of both books. I know there have been at least a couple of times when I waited for the paperback, and then liked it so well, I *had* to buy the next one, even if it was hardback. Plus, I don't know about Bloomsbury, but Scholastic does a lot of book fairs at schools - they came to the elementary school I taught at every year. Nearly all of the books they brought were paperback. I agree with Kriselda - they are not going to want to lose that market, though it may be a while before the paperback edition is released. ~Cathy~ From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 8 01:55:43 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507235722.00e1eaf0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030508015543.98638.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57304 --- Troels wrote: > I /like/ Harry's flaws - he is sufficiently > unbelieveable as > it is and that might be why I prefer to > emphasise his faults > rather than gloss them over, which I feel you > are doing here. > I relish it when Harry is stupid or immoral - > it makes me > better capable of believing in him. Lynn: I don't think people are trying to gloss over Harry's faults as much as to defend him against a Zero Tolerance attitude. At least that's the impression I've gotten from some of these posts. It's as if people expect Harry to never make a mistake, to never break a rule, to always be perfect and when he isn't, the only explanation for his not being expelled or given a harsher punishment is because he's Harry. Unless someone has never broken a rule or has never received a lighter punishment than they perhaps should have (e.g. getting a warning rather than the speeding ticket; a month's grounding (i.e. house arrest) instead of the 'for the rest of your life' that they probably deserved), it seems to me to be hypocritical to demand that Harry receive these punishments to make the books more realistic or that because JKR doesn't impose these punishments she's making a moral justification for rule-breaking. It's these things that help make the books believable. Consequences for offenses are as individual as the person administering the consequence and the person receiving the consequence. As a parent, the consequences for an offense isn't set in stone but is fluid depending upon how much is learned from the actual offence. If my daughter has learned what she did wrong and understands why it is wrong, there will be a consequence to reinforce the lesson but it will not be the same as a consequence for doing the same thing over and over and not learning. That's how I see Harry. He receives punishment and usually in such a way as to develop his moral values. It may not have been the consequence I would have given but, as I said, it's a very individual thing. I've yet to meet two sets of parents who agree on the exact same consequences for all the exact same offenses. It also appears that people are expecting adult maturity and understanding from a kid. While as an adult I may not assist someone who has broken the law, as a kid it was natural to help a friend get out of trouble. You don't think about the fact that the person has broken the law; you think about the fact that a friend is in trouble and you want to help. Learning that there are times when friends must face the consequences for their actions is something that comes with maturity, a maturity 11 year olds usually don't have. Yes, Harry and Ron did steal a car. What I find interesting is that people seem to forget that Harry's first thought was to go and wait by the car for Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. Harry let himself be led by Ron into doing something wrong because he, at that time was panicking. He and Ron then didn't think things through and let the excitement of flying the car cloud their judgment, such a kid thing to do. Harry does learn a valuable lesson when he realizes he let down someone he respected. So, some of the lesson appears to be taken away when apparently most in Gryffindor applaud their actions, including those that should know better, until the Howler. Then the lesson he had learned about disappointing people was reinforced. Yep, I agree that Harry knew going into Hogsmeade was wrong and that he was hoping he wouldn't get caught doing it too. It was actually his doing that that made me start liking Harry because it was such a kid thing to do. There was no moral anything, no panicking, just pushing boundaries. Now I can pontificate and say how wrong it was and he shouldn't have done it, he should have known better, but it is something that is so natural for a kid to do, using their own reasoning as to why a rule doesn't apply to them. (Heck, adults do that all the time, e.g. I'm not going to wait for the walk signal because it's raining and I'm getting wet so I'll ignore the law and cross the street anyway.) While Harry didn't get punished as some may have liked, Harry did learn a huge lesson which developed his moral conscience in a way expulsion, detention or point taking just wouldn't have done. And isn't that supposed to be the point, learning and developing? Perhaps a difference is that I don't see these as faults but rather as being a more realistic character. It's a natural part of development in all phases of life to make mistakes or to make wrong choices. It's from our mistakes that we usually learn the most and develop because of them. I also think JKR has written these characters at a more reasonable maturity level than others appear too. I like that Harry's not perfect and I'm not going to pick on the kid for being a kid. Instead, I'm going to enjoy him when he breaks the rulesm, regardless of why he's breaking the rules, and applaud when he grows and develops. JKR has written these books in such a way that kids can see themselves, relate to a lot and, hopefully, learn but not making the same mistakes Harry & Co. make. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From selene at earthlink.net Thu May 8 02:15:20 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:15:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort and the Dursleys References: <1052345292.3511.8107.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3EB9BDB6.C2F8950B@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57305 > I know there is no evidence for this, but with speculation growing > regarding new information on the Dursleys... > Does anyone think it's possible that the Riddles and the Dursleys > could be related? That Harry is related to Voldemort on the MUGGLE > side? > There is certainly speculation that Harry and Voldemort are connected > in some way. It could be the transfer of powers that occured during > Voldemorts first attack on Harry. I don't think they are related on > the Wizard side because Dumbledore told harry that Voldemort is the > last descendent of Slytherin. > What do you think? > > "cgbrennan" Uncle Vernon Dursley is not a blood relative to Harry, remember, he is merely an "uncle" by virtue of being married to his mother's sister. I persist in believing that Lily's death-blessing was so strong that anyone of her blood relations is affected by it. Harry may NEED to live with Aunt Petunia and Cousin Duddkyins over the holidays for his protection. I cannot think of any other really good reason for Dumbledore to have placed him in that hive of abuse otherwise. Susan Fox-Davis From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 8 02:17:05 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 02:17:05 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <20030508015543.98638.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57306 Quoting much of Lynn's great post: > > I don't think people are trying to gloss over > Harry's faults as much as to defend him against a > Zero Tolerance attitude. At least that's the > impression I've gotten from some of these posts. > It's as if people expect Harry to never make a > mistake, to never break a rule, to always be > perfect and when he isn't, the only explanation > for his not being expelled or given a harsher > punishment is because he's Harry. My problem with the "Harry breaks rules and has faults" attitude is the subtle, and in some cases, not-so-subtle, attempts to somehow equalize Draco and the Slyths with Harry and the Gryffs. Because Harry has broken rules, there is a sense that it's OK for Draco to do what he does, and I will fight that every single time. > Yes, Harry and Ron did steal a car. What I find > interesting is that people seem to forget that > Harry's first thought was to go and wait by the > car for Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. Harry let himself > be led by Ron into doing something wrong because > he, at that time was panicking. He and Ron then > didn't think things through and let the > excitement of flying the car cloud their > judgment, such a kid thing to do. Harry does > learn a valuable lesson when he realizes he let > down someone he respected. So, some of the > lesson appears to be taken away when apparently > most in Gryffindor applaud their actions, > including those that should know better, until > the Howler. Then the lesson he had learned about > disappointing people was reinforced. This is an excellent point, and also brought up a bit of canon usually forgotten. The boys were expecting to be expelled. Ron even says he will begin packing his things. > Yep, I agree that Harry knew going into Hogsmeade > was wrong and that he was hoping he wouldn't get > caught doing it too. It was actually his doing > that that made me start liking Harry because it > was such a kid thing to do. There was no moral > anything, no panicking, just pushing boundaries. > Now I can pontificate and say how wrong it was > and he shouldn't have done it, he should have > known better, but it is something that is so > natural for a kid to do, using their own > reasoning as to why a rule doesn't apply to them. The whole reason he had to sneak into Hogsmeade is because he was forced to do some dog-and-pony show for Vernon and Petunia, putting up with unspeakable behavior from Aunt Marge. He failed -- on the last hour of the last day after a week from hell -- and Vernon wouldn't sign the form. Had Harry been a real troublemaker, he'd have just forged the signature and been done with it, but he tried to explain the situation, first to Fudge and then to McGonagall. Only later, did Lee Jordan suggest forging. You're 13 and that has just happened to you. You might react the same way, feeling like "this is unfair and I shouldn't have to do this for something not my fault." But again, after Lupin reads him the riot act, he really gets it. Darrin -- Harry and Draco are NOT the same. From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 03:04:52 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 20:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Memory Charms and why they bother me. (WAS: Is there anything in the HP world th In-Reply-To: <20030507232651.84839.qmail@web13107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030508030452.7287.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57307 Kriselda Jarnsaxa wrote: I think it's more likely that the memory charms are used in situations where someone who has not had previous contact with the WW and is unlikely to have any future contact with it is suddenly exposed to it. Altering their memory can protect them and the WW. For others, though, who have Witches or Wizards who live in the same house with them, it's not seen as necessary (or practical) since they're pretty much used to it, whether they like it or not.... And here's me [Odile] chiming in: My thought is that memory charms are used on those Muggles who are most likely to expose the WW. Take, for example, that bloke who found the OoP books in the field the other day - what was his first reaction? He blabbed it all to his friends. His friends' advice? Tell the sleaziest tabloid in Britain! The Dursleys, on the other hand, are desperate to be viewed as "normal" (whatever that is) and went so far as to pretend that Petunia never had a sister, never mind reveal the fact that Lily was a witch. That would be too humiliating. Hermione's folks (as well as other Muggle families of witches & wizards), OTOH, are sympathetic that the WW has to be kept secret from Muggles, and therefore are trusted enough to keep their secrets, no memory charm needed. Just my two knuts. Odile Me: Well nobody could ever claim that the Dursley's are sympathetic to the WW world! Of course their silence can be counted on for entirely different reasons. Actually I think it is a general policy to block the memory of any muggle who comes in contact with the magical world and the exceptions being muggles with witch/wizard children or in very important positions. Remember in PoA, they actually went to the muggle Prime Minister I believe and told him about the escape. But I doubt they can scrutinize every muggle to evaluate their reliability or lack thereof. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ultimatesen at aol.com Thu May 8 06:50:00 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 06:50:00 -0000 Subject: The Arts at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <1c6.9583689.2bea9526@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57308 snuffles: > When I read the Subject line, I immediately thought the art IN Hogwarts, which raised a question for me. When talking in the halls.... even when speaking under the invisibility cloak, couldn't the art hear the Trio, or anyone else for that matter? And, if so, does the art travel to the art in Dumbledore's office to fill him in on the goings-on inside the castle? Me: You know, I think you could be right. It brings to mind the line Dumblydore uses about only leaving HW when nobody is loyal to him (paraphrase). "Nobody" could includ the paintings perhaps. It seems to me that of course the art could possibly be "hall monitors". Dumblydore seems to know... unnaturally too much about the goings on of HW. Of course he's *The Man*, but it really seems to me like he's *got* to have insider sources. I think also, since everyone seems to be aware of Harry etc, that Dumblydore could've put out a possible "APB" to any & everything to keep a special eye on Harry. Not because of his being a trouble maker, but because he is the key to defeating Vold. Just a thought. Sen "Gotta love cold medicine... you can make no sense and have something to blame it on" =o) From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 8 06:55:58 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Cards and wizard ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030508065558.39058.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57309 --- Patricia wrote: > So this leads me to wonder just how much longer > magical life spans really > are. Do magical folks naturally live longer > than muggles could even > theoretically live, or are their life spans > more like ideal muggle life > spans, due possibly to the healthful effects of > being surrounded by magic > or to the advantages made available by magical > health care techniques? Lynn: I think one thing to remember when looking at the lifespans cited is that the majority lived to a ripe old age at a time when a Muggle would be considered old at 30-35. So, at that time, it would seem as if magical folk had a much longer life span. Then Muggle technology started, medical knowledge increased, and Muggles did start living longer while the magical community continued with the same approximate life span. So, at one point the magical community was living 2 or 3 times as long as Muggles, then they were living about 1 1/2 times as long, and these days it appears that even that time has shortened as the Muggle life span has gotten longer. As you say, it's not unusual anymore to see people living into their 70s, 80s and 90s and even the number of people who live to 100 appears to be growing. So, I guess I would cast my vote on the longer life with magical medical care which is being negated now that Muggle medical care is advancing. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 23:41:51 2003 From: luv_lotr2 at yahoo.com (luv_lotr2) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 23:41:51 -0000 Subject: Was LV killing just those in Britain? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57310 Or was he also after certain wizards and witches in other parts of the world? LV fame is of course, spread throughout the world..but was that because those in other area's knew of LV reputation? If so, why would LV be only interested in getting rid of those in that area? Was he only interested in becoming powerful in that region, or was it only his first step? The "other" Mrs. Weasley From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Thu May 8 00:05:54 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (xmezumiiru) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 00:05:54 -0000 Subject: Sort-of OT reference about Names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57311 This probably had no effect on JKR when she was composing her great works. But a rather well known fact of Egyptian history has the famed King Akhnaton, the King who tried to turn the polytheistic culture to a monotheistic culture, was, by later Kings, stricken from the names of Kings. An obscured fact is that in order to refer to him, one had to say `He- Whose-Name-May-Not-Be-Spoken'. Chris From cgbrennan at aol.com Wed May 7 19:50:40 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 19:50:40 -0000 Subject: Imperius Curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57312 In Goblet of Fire, Moody (crouch) puts Harry through the Imperius Curse "four times in a row" until he can throw it off completely, after having almost thrown it off the first time Moody/Crouch cursed him with it. (p. 231, american) Later, when Voldemort uses it against Harry, JK writes that "And Harry felt, the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought..." (p.661) Third time? There is no mention of a time between the first day in class and then with Voldemort that Harry is cursed, and since it was done more than twice on the first day, it can't be the third since then. It sounds like JK is saying that the time in class was Harry's second time...so when was the first? Is it possible that being able to throw off that curse is something Harry was born with, thus helping him escape Voldemort? Or did V transfer that skill to Harry? Is it a mistake? Misprint?? Any ideas? cgbrennan From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 8 07:21:43 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:21:43 -0000 Subject: I Have a gut feeling it wasn't James at GH that night. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57313 Ok now I have been reading and posting for only a couple of weeks so please dont get mad if I am rehashing old ground. Godrics Hollow the night of Voldemorts downfall. Harry heard a mans voice telling Lily to go and take Harry. Was it James? Well Lupin did appear to believe it couldn't be. Harry has had no visual memory to confirm for us that it was. And I think after Four books that we may have figured out how to spot the spoiler at last! But then again I am guilty of accusing Snape in PS, blaming Draco in COS, ignoring Crookshanks in POA, and even having absolutely no idea whatsoever who put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire. So dont trust me JK catches me -_- dozing every time and I eat up every <{^({< Red Herring tidbit she tosses me. So I know nothing? So I know nothing. Valky From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Thu May 8 02:15:16 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 02:15:16 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort and Comfort-Hurt--There's a Reason They Call Us "Bent." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57314 Darrin said, in a post from a few days ago regarding crushes: > * Hermione - Smart is waayyyyyy sexy. (Movie poisioning here, but ? >Emma Watson will be a serious babe in 10 years.) Agreed on both counts, but I say 7 years rather then ten :-) > * Moaning Myrtle - Guy rule. Go after the girl feeling lonely at >the party. Again, agreed. > * Ginny. Yeah, far down on the list, really, but too much of the "little sister" > vibe. I disagree...or at least, I would have gone for Ginny when I was 15 anyway. > > * Millicent - Gahhh! Never date a girl who can beat you up. *indignant expression* I've dated girls eight belts higher then me in Taekwondo...they could certainly beat me up, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's a good chance this post will be ignored, due to my coming in so late in the game, but better late then never, and that's what what I get for not checking e-mail for a few days...Have a wonderful evening - Joe From petalla at express56.com Thu May 8 07:19:01 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:19:01 -0000 Subject: Sort-of OT reference about Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57315 > This probably had no effect on JKR when she was composing her great > works. > > But a rather well known fact of Egyptian history has the famed King > Akhnaton, the King who tried to turn the polytheistic culture to a > monotheistic culture, was, by later Kings, stricken from the names of > Kings. > > An obscured fact is that in order to refer to him, one had to say `He- > Whose-Name-May-Not-Be-Spoken'. > > Chris Chris, Do not be so sure of the lack of Rowling's research and mythological knowledge. These books are filled with mythological references and allusions. >From what I have read in a few "critical" writings (and books) she was well aware of this fact. ~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Thu May 8 08:02:12 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 01:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voldemort's Comment in the Graveyard Scene Message-ID: <20030508080212.13884.qmail@web13501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57316 > bboy_mn: > > >>One small problem (GoF Am HB pg 648) Avery is there in > >>the graveyard. And to all the others who replied Now Me (Christina): WOW!!! I must have been half asleep, lol, because that totally slipped past me! Totally shot my theory out of the water, but thanks for clearing me up. Must have been my wishing to keep Sexy Snape out of harm's way! LOL ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Thu May 8 01:25:04 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 01:25:04 -0000 Subject: Death Again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57317 Well this is a depressing thought which I'm sure has occured to people, but I haven't seen it discussed at all for the brief time I've been here, so I'll through it out. Supposedly one of Harry's fans is going to die. While I r-e-a-l-l-y don't like this idea, what if that fan is Ginny Weasly? It's been confirmed that Ginny Weasly will be playing a bigger role in Book 5, which could mean that she just became safer...or could mean trouble. I've seen something similar once in the Star Wars series or novels, where one character was built up from relative obscurity to the point where everybody really liked him, he started a relationship with his best friend...and then gets killed. I sincerely hope that the Potter series doesn't get *that* depressing, not that I'd do something as hair brained as stop reading if it did...anyway, a knut for thoughts? "Joe" From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu May 8 08:56:43 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 08:56:43 -0000 Subject: Imperius Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cgbrennan2003" wrote: <<>> Ali : I believe that the first time that Harry's mind had been wiped of all thought, was not the imperius curse at all, but was when he saw the Veela: "The Veela started to dance, and Harry's mind had gone completely and blissfully blank" (p94 GoF, UK edition). This section shows us that the Imperius curse and the effect of the Veela are rather similar. So, although Harry was put under the Imperius Curse 4 times in Moody's class, they count together, collectively as the "second time". I see it almost as a signpost for things to come for Ron - who has trouble both with the Veela and with the Imperius curse. Although it would seem that Harry was unusual in being able to throw off the curse, Ron is singled out as having difficulties with it. I believe that this inability to resist either the Veela or the Imperius curse will be significant later. Ali From lissbell at colfax.com Thu May 8 08:33:32 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 01:33:32 -0700 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins Message-ID: <3EBA165C.1DFC4345@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57319 I believe Harry Potter and Ginny Weasley may be Tom Riddle's biological parents. I know how absurd this sounds, but I do have my reasons. We already know from CoS that Tom and Harry closely resemble one another. We also know Rowling likes to give her characters names that suggest their roles or secret identities. Potter, I suspect, may be an allusion to the Latin word pater, meaning father. Rowling also emphasizes again and again during the graveyard scene in GoF that Harry is literally tied to the grave of Voldemort's father. Perhaps I'm silly to interpret it this way, but I can't help but believe Rowling is suggesting there is a direct and powerful connection between Harry Potter and Voldemort's father--that he *is* in fact Voldemort's father. This would, of course, go a long way toward explaining why Voldemort could not kill Harry in his crib or successfully use Quirrell to kill him in PS. Killing Harry before he has a chance to create a son would, effectively, destroy that son. I believe Ginny Weasley was also given a symbolic name by Rowling. I assume Ginny is short for Virginia and I suspect this is a nod to the Virgin Mary, mother of the Christian lord. (Please understand I don't intend offense to Christians or non-Christians in bringing this subject up.) Why is this relevant? Because Voldemort is the 'Dark Lord'. If he is an inverse of the Christian Lord figure, it's fitting that his mother be Virginia. Is Tom Riddle a dark Christ figure? I believe Rowling has drawn parallels between the "Dark Lord" Voldemort and his circle of Death Eaters, and the Christian Lord and his disciples. Not only does Voldemort travel the land inspiring fear and performing cruel miracles, he is worshipped by a core of devotees, betrayed by one of those followers, and has his own last supper-esque scene at the end of GoF, complete with a ritual that gives life using body and blood. (For those unfamiliar with the Christian practice: body and blood are the prominent symbols in the Christian ritual of communion.) The fact that Riddle has literally taken the title of "Dark Lord" is another hint that he is an inverse Christ figure. Okay, I can feel people's eyes rolling. We already know that Voldemort's father is Tom Riddle Senior and that the baby Riddle was born in 1927. This is true, yes, but Rowling has established two key elements in the Harry Potter universe that make the theory possible--and that would probably *not* be introduced in a fictional world by an author that didn't intend to make full use of them: time travel and memory alteration. The idea of altered or expunged memories was introduced in CoS and reinforced in both PoA and GoF. The reality that there could be truths and secrets that the characters may once have known--but which they cannot now recall--makes any number of scenarios plausible. The introduction of Time Travel in PoA, however, is a big tip-off. Few authors would include such a powerful, destabilizing construct in a fictional universe unless it was going play a necessary role in the upcoming plot. Now some might suggest that the time-travel pay-off was evident when Harry and Hermione saved Sirius Black and Buckbeak, but I don't agree. That concludes my textual evidence for this admittedly extreme theory, but I do have a few pieces of "softer" evidence to back up my belief. Ginny Weasley has been crushing unrequitedly on Harry Potter since the first book of the series. Few writers are cold-hearted enough to let a situation like this go on without offering the character some romantic resolution. I'm not saying I like this. I'm not saying I don't. I would just be surprised if some type of Harry/Ginny union didn't take place at some future point. I also know how easy it is, as a writer, to feel sympathy for your villain. It's *especially* easy to care for him when he was once a tragic, rejected little boy raised in an orphanage full of jerks that mocked him. Such pain and woe just make you want to weep and rage and pound the walls at the injustice of it all. They also make you want to give the poor boy something to make it better. And like Harry Potter, Tom Riddle's most painful childhood wish was probably to have parents who loved him and took care of him. Rowling could never give him that, of course. If she *did*, he wouldn't become Voldemort. He'd just be--if my theory holds true--another sweet Weasley with Potter hair and impish grin. No, but she *could* make up a scheme to raise a specter of Tom from late boyhood then hand his parents over to that ghoul for quality family time. Harry Potter and Ginny Weasley are the only characters that we see interact with diary-Riddle. This may not be Rowling caving to Tom's pitiful needs to spend time with the parents he never even knew and who would have loved him, but it feels that way to me. This aspect of the HP series, more than anything else, makes me believe Ginny is Riddle's mother. I admit, however, that I may be wrong, wrong, wrong. Final bit of nebulous evidence: It seems to me Rowling has two main themes in the HP series. The first is that our choices, not our genetic heritage, determine our character. The second is, in the words of Draco Malfoy, that "some wizarding families are much better than others" (PS). This statement is cruel and false in the way Draco intends it, but tragically true in a way he surely does not. Some families *are* better than others in terms of nurturing their children and bringing them to a secure and happy adulthood. In order to really explore this theme and turn Draco's bitter words into an ironic truth, however, Rowling has to show not only that Malfoys are nasty and Weasleys sweet, but that a child from a traditionally "good" family can turn monstrous when raised in a terrible environment. What better way to do this than to reveal the most despicable wizard of all-time to be a Weasley and the son of the much-lauded Harry Potter? (And imagining the gut-squirming horror the Malfoys would endure should their Dark Lord be revealed as a Weasley is, for me at least, just delicious.) That concludes my excursion into absurd Potterly conjecture. I apologize for the length of this post. I freely admit my theory sounds ridiculous and may be completely wrong. (Some days I don't believe it myself.) Thanks for reading, nonetheless. If you got this far, I commend you for your patience and would love to hear your ideas--even if they include the notion that I'm delusional. (And kindly List Elf, if this post is too long, please tell me. I'll try to edit it down.) ~Lissa From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu May 8 09:54:30 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 09:54:30 -0000 Subject: Harry the House Elf Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57320 Harry the House Elf- some of the ancient magic surrounding Harry at 4 Privet Drive Before you think I've gone off my rocker, I don't think that Harry really is a House Elf. But, I do feel that an element of his protection lies with the clothes he receives from the Dursleys. Voldemort tells us that Harry was "Protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care" p 570 GoF UK edition. To counteract some of the argument that Mrs Figg is Harry's secret keeper, we know that wizards did try and see Harry before he even knew he was a wizard; this surely would not have been possible if the secret was locked only in Mrs Figg. From the little we have heard about the Secret Keeper magic, it was not dependant on somebody else's care, only on them keeping strum. Thus, whilst I am sure that Mrs Figg is and will be significant, I don't think that it is because she is Harry's Secret Keeper. A quick glance at the Dursleys tells us that they hate magic, and their dislike of Harry seems genuine. An element of the ancient magic might well therefore work because they are "caring" for Harry against their will. After all, it does seem that Harry's protection at Privet Drive is multi-layered. However, I am interested in the clothes that they give to Harry. The Dursleys are socially aspiring, curtain twitches who cannot stand appearing out of place. Harry's hair is a constant annoyance because it is so unkempt, and Harry's Aunt and Uncle are prepared to pay out constantly for haircuts: "Harry must have had more haircuts than the rest of the boys in his class put together" PS p.20 UK edition. Vernon is even careful not to punish Harry over the snake incident whilst Piers is still in the house, and however much he might threaten corporal punishment, we have never been told that he has carried through his threats ? presumably, because that would risk leaving visible marks (and/or incur the wrath of the WW). And yet, Harry is a constant and visible oddity because of "his baggy old clothes".p.27 PS. If Petunia is so anxious for the family to appear "normal", why not buy Harry cheap second hand clothes that fit? She is prepared to spend money to have Harry's hair cut, so why not buy a few cheap items of clothing? Why dye Dudley's old clothes so that Harry's uniform will look like "elephant skin". Even in GoF JKR reminds us that the Dursleys are still giving Harry Dudley's hand-me-downs: Vernon says "You stand there, in the clothes Petunia and I have put on your ungrateful back" ? "Only after Dudley has finished with them" said Harry coldly. P.34 UK edition. I believe that Harry's safety is somehow linked to the Dursleys giving him their cast off clothes and just as a House Elf is freed when they are given clothes, the link protecting Harry will be broken when the Dursleys give Harry new clothes regardless of whether or not Harry is in their care. Of course, Harry does buy new clothes, and is given jumpers by Mrs Weasley and socks from Dobby. But, the protection which the clothes cement is when Harry is in the Dursley's care. I imagine that this protection weakens the longer he is away from his family regardless of the clothes he is wearing, but that Dumbledore had felt confident that he could protect him whilst at Hogwarts. When this proved not to be so, Harry would have to return to the Dursleys for a protection top-up and more baggy horrible clothes. Ali From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu May 8 10:29:28 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 06:29:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville/Memory Charms References: Message-ID: <000f01c3154c$b4cae740$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57321 Abigail asked: > I don't see why you're so sure that Neville can't recover from a > memory charm (assuming he is under one). The Bertha Jorkins story > shows us that as far as recovering the memory itself, the memory does > still exist and therefore can be accessed. As to whether recovering > the memory necessarily entails the breakdown of the personality, I > really don't think that we have enough information on that. We don't > know whether Bertha lost her mind (that's how I understand Voldemort > refering to her as being of no further use) because of the torture as > such or because of the breaking of the memory charm. In any case, I > don't see why it should be impossible for a memory charm to be > removed benignently. (Especially by the wizard who cast it in the > first place.) Here's my thinking on this: Barty Jr. tells us that the Memory Charm his father cast on Bertha was "too powerful . . . he said it damaged her memory permanently." Neville's memory seems to be similarly damaged, i.e., his ability to remember is damaged, which is why many people think he was also the victim of a too-powerful Memory Charm. Barty Jr. also says Voldemort "tortured [Bertha] until he broke through the Memory Charm." This suggests that torture is *how* Voldemort broke the Memory Charm. And when Voldemort tells Wormtail in GoF ch. 1 that "Memory Charms can be broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her," he implies that they're generally considered to be unbreakable. There's also no suggestion that breaking through the charm to reach this particular memory of Bertha's had any effect on her forgetfulness in general. If Neville has been Memory Charmed, we know from the dementor on the train that their influence on deeply hidden memories doesn't seem to affect him, suggesting that it would take something very powerful -- and potentially further damaging -- to remove it. I'd rather not see Neville further damaged, so I don't want his Memory Charm removed. > > Also, wouldn't it be a bit lame to have a memory charmed Neville who > *doesn't* recover his memory? Surely such a heavily built up lost > memory has to play an important part in the plot. Or do you expect > Neville to reveal it and then go insane as well? My thinking is that the details of the Longbottoms' torture, including the Memory Charm, will be revealed by someone else who has been concealing this information. Or else, someone could successfully break through the Memory Charm for whatever purpose. Either way, the effect on Neville will be profound; imagine being told that your disability was caused by a deliberate attack that was concealed from you all your life. For better or for worse, Neville's personality has been shaped by the limitations of his own forgetfulness and by the constant reminders of what he *should* be, and even if his memory -- and the capacity for remembering -- were restored to their former state, he would still be Neville. Moreover, since I think Neville's brain has been permanently damaged, as Bertha's was, I don't see how breaking through the charm would do anything for his forgetfulness. He may develop coping strategies, and may become more confident as he matures. But he will still be Neville. > But to leave a Neville who is incomplete > psychologcially I think is almost as bad. After all, one of the main > themes of the books is growth and maturation. So, for me, it's highly > unlikely that Neville (if indeed he is memory charmed) will not > recover - both his lost memory and himself. I think that the parllel > is Harry/parents:Neville/parents. By the end of the series, Harry > will live on/[parents dead] and Neville will have healed mentally/ > [parents insane]. > I completely agree with the coming of age theme and nature of the parallel between Harry and Neville. I think we differ here because I see the growth and maturation process for Neville as one of growing to understand and accept who he is, rather than recovering a missing element of personality. Elkins eloquently argued long ago, in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38398, that the idea of Neville's Memory Charm being removed so that he can take his place in the warrior wizarding culture defeats the essence of who Neville is. For better or worse, Neville's personality has been shaped by his memory problems, and I think it would be a very tacky and unsatisfying resolution for Neville to end the series by recovering his memory and, as Elkins puts it, kicking DE butt. IMO, that response to the revelation of negative background information will be left to the Weasleys (I *did* vote for the Missing Weasley Child in the OOP polls). In addition, for Neville to simply have his memory restored would not be, shall we say, *Bangy*? The Bang would have to come in some sort of revelation about the Pensieve Four, about the crime, or, most likely, about Frank Longbottom himself which will destroy the image of sainthood Gran has been painting for Neville. This would be the most difficult thing of all for Neville to face. I expect that would also parallel to Harry, who will discover negative background about his own parents. There's also a third parallel between Harry and Neville and their pasts; the obvious part of that is that both lost their parents at the hands of the DEs. In addition, assuming Neville has a Memory Charm, it would mean that both he and Harry were marked in significant way in the episodes that caused them to lose their parents -- Harry through his scar, which appears to connect him to memories and information; and Neville through the Memory Charm which, in contrast, cuts him off from memories and connections he should have. If the memory theme that the Longbottoms exemplify is what I think it is, Neville's resolution will more resemble dealing with grief. First, you must confront, then your emotions will take over (anger or depression, for example), then finally will come understanding and acceptance. Harry is on a journey of exploration to find out who his parents are, but no magic he can do will ever bring them back. For the theme to play itself out, Neville too must confront his past. For now, the fact that he has told no one about his family suggests that he cannot face it himself. But if the facts about Frank that he cannot face are a lie, the martyr'd hero will be unmasked in a huge ugly moment, and Neville will be forced to face it, and will do so in a way that will be very different from Harry's response to the gradual revelation of information about his own background. Debbie another short response gone awry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 8 10:52:28 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 03:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins In-Reply-To: <3EBA165C.1DFC4345@colfax.com> Message-ID: <20030508105228.73398.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57322 --- Lissa wrote: > Tom Riddle's biological > parents.> Lynn: Well, that certainly is an interesting theory but (you knew that was coming, right?) I have one really big problem with it and some other problems as well. Big problem: Tom Riddle, Sr. was a Muggle, Harry is not. Now, unless everybody travelled back in time, how does Tom Riddle, Jr. kill his father more than 50 years before his father was born? How does Tom Riddle, Jr. kill his paternal grandparents as old people when he, as Voldemort, killed them when they were in their 20s? CoS doesn't say that Tom Riddle, Jr. resemble each other physically, but rather aspects of their life resemble each other - orphaned early, raised by Muggle, etc. As far as the Potter name, JKR has already said she picked that name because neighbors had the last name of Potter and she liked it, the same way she picked Harry's first name is because Harry is her favorite boy's name. We also know from PoA that time travel doesn't prevent people from killing their former or later selves so it stands to reason it wouldn't stop them from killing anyone else so that wouldn't have stopped Voldemort or Tom Riddle, Jr. from killing Harry before he has a child. As to Ginny Weasley, I really don't see Molly Weasley allowing her granddaughter to be raised in a Muggle orphanage, do you? Besides, that would mean that the Weasleys were descendents of Salazar Slytherin and I also don't see his descendents being sorted into Gryffindor House. It would also stand to reason that at least one of them, if not all, were Parselmouths. Unless JKR comes out and says, oh, by the way, you can't take anything in the books as truth, it's all lies, for me at least, this theory doensn't fly. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From pstaw57550 at aol.com Thu May 8 11:16:14 2003 From: pstaw57550 at aol.com (Peter) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 11:16:14 -0000 Subject: Harry the House Elf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Harry the House Elf- some of the ancient magic surrounding Harry at > 4 Privet Drive > > Before you think I've gone off my rocker, I don't think that Harry > really is a House Elf. But, I do feel that an element of his > protection lies with the clothes he receives from the Dursleys. I will say this. All (4) books Harry has been carrying around those dirty socks that Dursley gave him - I always thought that was curious though they came in handy when it came to the "sneak-a- scope", but didnt't he pass them on to Dobby? Does he have any Dursley clothing left? With him at school that is?? -Pete From lissbell at colfax.com Thu May 8 12:04:42 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 05:04:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins References: <20030508105228.73398.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EBA47DA.DBF9D8B9@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57324 > --- Lissa wrote: > > a long post that Harry Potter and Ginny > Weasley may be > > Tom Riddle's biological > > parents.> Lynn responded: > Big problem: Tom Riddle, Sr. was a Muggle, Harry > is not. Me: Thanks for the response Lynn. I should have been more clear in my post, but I was trying to keep it brief. I don't believe Tom Riddle Sr is Harry Potter and I don't believe Riddle is Voldemort's father. I also don't necessarily believe Harry went back in time. I just believe that Ginny did. In my opinion, Voldemort grew up believing mistakenly that Tom Sr was his father. Ginny might even have believed Riddle Sr was the baby's father herself, depending on whether memory charms had been used on her. Alternately, she may have duped Riddle Sr into marrying her. (I don't have any evidence to conclude anything about Ginny's state of mind--assuming my theory isn't utter hogwash--and don't want to speculate.) I realize this makes Voldemort's resurrection spell in GoF problematic. Without the proper ingredients, the ritual should not have worked. I suspect part of the reason Dumbledore seems secretly pleased when he hears the details of the ritual is that Voldemort *did* get it a bit wrong. He used the bone of an enemy and the blood of his father rather than vice-versa. (And yes, I do think Dumbledore knows that HP is Voldemort's father. His statements in CoS when Harry is asking about his similarities to Riddle are, in my mind, too carefully worded to be candid. When Harry prompts Dumbledore for confirmation that Voldemort passed characteristics to him when he tried to kill him, Dumbledore diplomatically responds, "It certainly seems so". This recalls his response to Prof. McGonagall in Chapter 1 of Phil. Stone. when she questioningly states about Voldemort, "I suppose he really *has* gone, Dumbledore?" I suspect Dumbledore knows much of what is to come, which explains not only his general sense of playful optimism and calm, but his status as the one wizard Voldemort fears. Dumbledore has an advantage Tom Marvolo Riddle does not.) Lynn wrote: > As far > as the Potter name, JKR has already said she > picked that name because neighbors had the last > name of Potter and she liked it, the same way she > picked Harry's first name is because Harry is her > favorite boy's name. Me: I think that's clever misdirection on Rowling's part. I also don't think she had much choice but to pass the name off as insignificant. Admitting it had meaning would potentially spoil her plot twists--again, if my theory is correct. And I admit it may be complete nonsense. Lynn wrote: > We also know from PoA that time travel doesn't > prevent people from killing their former or later > selves so it stands to reason it wouldn't stop > them from killing anyone else so that wouldn't > have stopped Voldemort or Tom Riddle, Jr. from > killing Harry before he has a child. Me: I think if it had been anyone other than a Voldemort-type figure--who'd saturated his being with spells and potions to make himself immortal--he would have succeeded either in killing his biological father or, at the very least, rendering himself nonexistent. Only the lingering effects of extensive dark magic kept him alive. It's a paradox complicated by Voldemort's dark magic immortality. Lynn wrote: > As to Ginny > Weasley, I really don't see Molly Weasley > allowing her granddaughter to be raised in a > Muggle orphanage, do you? Me: Absolutely not! Molly Weasley would never allow a grandchild to be raised in an orphanage if she could help it, but there's no reason Molly would know anything beyond the fact that her daughter disappears if/when she does. Lynn wrote: > Besides, that would > mean that the Weasleys were descendents of > Salazar Slytherin and I also don't see his > descendents being sorted into Gryffindor House. > It would also stand to reason that at least one > of them, if not all, were Parselmouths. Me: Hmmm, I don't see why the Weasleys couldn't be descendents of Slytherin. I think one of Rowling's points in the series is that genetic makeup is not the same as personal character and that upbringing--family--has a far more powerful effect on a child's ultimate personality than DNA. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the Weasleys were related to Slytherin and Ginny turns out to be a Parselmouth. Nonetheless, I do believe Harry is an heir of Slytherin and that he passed the Parselmouth trait on to his son. Dumbledore was able to hide this truth from Harry by claiming Voldemort was the "last" Slytherin heir in CoS. Since Harry doesn't realize that, generationally, he's actually older than Tom Riddle, this information appeases him and allows him to believe, wrongfully, that he's not related to Slytherin. Also, Dumbledore notes that being a Parselmouth is terribly rare. I--perhaps wrongfully--took this to mean that even in descendents of SS, there was no guarantee of the ability to speak with snakes. Lynn wrote: > Unless JKR comes out and says, oh, by the way, > you can't take anything in the books as truth, > it's all lies, for me at least, this theory > doensn't fly. Me: Lynn, I honestly see why you say this. I think my theory is utterly far-fetched. Honestly, I hope it isn't true. It isn't where I would have taken the series, but it is my best interpretation of the facts and symbols as I see them. The only real "lie" I can see, is the one that states Tom Riddle Sr is the father of Voldemort. Given that the man so easily parted with the boy, however, I'm not sure even *he* really trusted that he was Tom Jr's father. Still, I could be completely wrong. You've given me some things to think about. Thanks. ~Lissa From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu May 8 12:40:09 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 12:40:09 +0000 Subject: (FLIK) Fluffy The Dog Goes To Sleep Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57325 Fluffy The Dog Goes To Sleep (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _While My Guitar Gently Weeps_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html Man! I really dig George Harrison The Trio: The Sorcerer's Stone we know Snape will be stealing While Fluffy the dog goes to sleep Hagrid, at the pub, to that Snape, was revealing How Fluffy the dog goes to sleep We all found out about Nick Flamel Though Hagrid yelled at us We all found out it was guarded well there With other spells and snares Just play some music and those eyes will be drooping As Fluffy the dog goes to sleep Then off the the Stone Snape will surely be swooping When Fluffy the dog goes to sleep We all found out Snape's motivation And affiliation too We all found out the implications And our frustration grew We'll go through the door and this flute we'll be playing Then Fluffy the dog goes to sleep We'll go down the hatch.... While Fluffy the dog goes to sleep -Gail B...who was going to write "While This Phoenix Gently Weeps" but decided that would be too obvious. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From t.forch at mail.dk Thu May 8 13:01:03 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:01:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: References: <20030508015543.98638.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508144631.00e906f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57326 At 02:17 08-05-03 +0000, darrin_burnett wrote: >My problem with the "Harry breaks rules and has faults" attitude is the >subtle, >and in some cases, not-so-subtle, attempts to somehow equalize Draco and >the Slyths with Harry and the Gryffs. > >Because Harry has broken rules, there is a sense that it's OK for Draco to do >what he does, and I will fight that every single time. If it is OK for Harry to a certain thing, then it must also be OK for Draco to do that exact same thing. Likewise if it wrong for Draco to do a thing, then it must also be wrong for Harry to do that exact same thing - anything else is hypocricy. But as far as I can tell, this is not what you're objecting to. The way I read your message you're referring to people e.g. claiming that because Harry has been out at night, then it is OK for Draco to dress up a Dementor to obstruct Harry? If I read that correctly, then I agree with you. It is interesting, by the way, that we don't see Draco breaking the rules much - he seems perfectly capable of being obnoxious without resorting to rule-breaking. Troels From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu May 8 13:11:36 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:11:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperius Curse Message-ID: <1c4.94753db.2bebb188@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57327 In a message dated 5/8/2003 2:16:17 AM Central Standard Time, cgbrennan at aol.com writes: > Third time? There is no mention of a time between the first day in > class and then with Voldemort that Harry is cursed, and since it was > done more than twice on the first day, it can't be the third since > then. It sounds like JK is saying that the time in class was Harry's > second time...so when was the first? Is it possible that being able > to throw off that curse is something Harry was born with, thus > helping him escape Voldemort? Or did V transfer that skill to > Harry? Is it a mistake? Misprint?? > I think that she might have been referring to the sensation that overcame him at the World Cup with the Veelas. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From t.forch at mail.dk Thu May 8 13:21:44 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:21:44 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <20030508015543.98638.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030507235722.00e1eaf0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508150115.00e38ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57328 At 18:55 07-05-03 -0700, Ladi lyndi wrote: >--- Troels wrote: > > I /like/ Harry's flaws - he is sufficiently > > unbelieveable as > > it is and that might be why I prefer to > > emphasise his faults > > rather than gloss them over, which I feel you > > are doing here. > > I relish it when Harry is stupid or immoral - > > it makes me > > better capable of believing in him. > > >Lynn: > >I don't think people are trying to gloss over >Harry's faults as much as to defend him against a >Zero Tolerance attitude. At least that's the >impression I've gotten from some of these posts. >It's as if people expect Harry to never make a >mistake, to never break a rule, to always be >perfect and when he isn't, the only explanation >for his not being expelled or given a harsher >punishment is because he's Harry. I see what you mean. I know I am not the only one to sometimes express myself in stronger language than is really necessary when defending a position. I may have reacted to such language without looking up the history of the discussion. Having read the last couple of mails on the subject, I think that many of us are trying to say the same things, but get confused by each other's choice of words - I may easily be responsible for this as English is not my native language and I therefore sometimes misinterpret the nuances of English phrases. >Yep, I agree that Harry knew going into Hogsmeade >was wrong and that he was hoping he wouldn't get >caught doing it too. It was actually his doing >that that made me start liking Harry because it >was such a kid thing to do. Yes - that and the car (while Ron suggested it, Harry was just as excited at the idea ;-) That is exactly what I meant when I wrote that Harry's faults made him more realistic for me. [...] >While Harry didn't get punished as some may have >liked, Harry did learn a huge lesson which developed >his moral conscience in a way expulsion, detention >or point taking just wouldn't have done. And isn't >that supposed to be the point, learning and >developing? Exactly. The punishment is, IMO, rather irrelevant. The important thing is what Harry learns from the experience - both in this case and when they stole the car in CoS we see him realising that it was wrong and sincerely regretting his actions. That is, IMO, far more illustrative than seeing him suffer a detention with Lockhart ;-) >Perhaps a difference is that I don't see these as >faults but rather as being a more realistic >character. My use of the word 'fault' may faulty ;-) I don't know what else to call it though. We say that 'Errare humanum est' and mean, IMO, that all humans err, but also that it is inhuman not to err. Harry's errors of judgement make him more human, more realistic. >I like that Harry's not perfect and I'm not going >to pick on the kid for being a kid. Well put. I never intended to pick on him - I wanted to draw attention to his errors of judgement and unjustified breaking of rules, but not to berate him for it. Would it, BTW, be better to refer to Harry's 'imperfections' than to his 'faults'? Troels From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu May 8 13:23:44 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:23:44 -0000 Subject: Imperius Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57329 wrote: > << Imperius Curse "four times in a row" until he can throw it off > completely, after having almost thrown it off the first time > Moody/Crouch cursed him with it. (p. 231, american) > > Later, when Voldemort uses it against Harry, JK writes that "And > Harry felt, the third time in his life, the sensation that his > mind had been wiped of all thought..." (p.661) > > Third time? There is no mention of a time between the first day > in class and then with Voldemort that Harry is cursed, and since > it was done more than twice on the first day, it can't be the > third since then. It sounds like JK is saying that the time in > class was Harry's second time...so when was the first? >>> Ali : > I believe that the first time that Harry's mind had been wiped of > all thought, was not the imperius curse at all, but was when he > saw the Veela: > > "The Veela started to dance, and Harry's mind had gone completely > and blissfully blank" (p94 GoF, UK edition). I really doubt Harry was thinking of the veela when he was in the graveyard. We have ample evidence that neither JKR nor her editors (maybe her books SHOULD be seen by more people before publication, especially a professor of mathematics, so these errors will stop!) can keep numbers straight. It looks to me like a genuine Flint. Pat yourself on the back! --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 8 13:32:41 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:32:41 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508144631.00e906f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57330 Troehls wrote: > > If it is OK for Harry to a certain thing, then it must also be OK > for Draco to do that exact same thing. Likewise if it wrong for > Draco to do a thing, then it must also be wrong for Harry to do > that exact same thing - anything else is hypocricy. > In general, I agree, in cases where Harry has shown inclinations to break the rules for selfish reasons -- here I'm thinking of going to Hogsmeade in PoA. That and the car incident are the times I really think Harry was being selfish. Had Draco done that, yeah, I think, there is an equality. But I DO think motives have to be considered. Draco sneaking out to try to get Harry in trouble IS different than Harry sneaking out because he believed he needed to try to save the Philosopher's Stone. Draco flying during Quidditch class to take away Neville's Remembrall IS different that Harry flying to rescue it. Protecting an Animagus who has been wrongly accused of murder and was his father's best friend besides IS different than protecting an animagus who is using her powers to write for a gossip rag. And so on. > But as far as I can tell, this is not what you're objecting to. > The way I read your message you're referring to people e.g. > claiming that because Harry has been out at night, then it is > OK for Draco to dress up a Dementor to obstruct Harry? If I > read that correctly, then I agree with you. It is interesting, > by the way, that we don't see Draco breaking the rules much - > he seems perfectly capable of being obnoxious without > resorting to rule-breaking. That is more along the lines of what I mean, and Draco does seem to have a knack for pushing the limit of the rules. But then again, I remember that Leg-Locker curse on Neville... Not all rule-breaking is the same. Darrin From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu May 8 13:44:58 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:44:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperius Curse Message-ID: <1df.885e88e.2bebb95a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57331 In a message dated 5/8/2003 8:30:30 AM Central Standard Time, psychic_serpent at yahoo.com writes: > I really doubt Harry was thinking of the veela when he was in the > graveyard. Actually I don't think it is a FLINT. The GOF passage doesn't state that he was thinking of the Veela specifically just that it was the third time in his life when he had felt that blissful (untracable) happiness. According to canon it is pretty much undeniable from the description that he'd had that feeling at least twice before the graveyard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu May 8 13:53:28 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:53:28 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508150115.00e38ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > >Yep, I agree that Harry knew going into Hogsmeade > >was wrong and that he was hoping he wouldn't get > >caught doing it too. It was actually his doing > >that that made me start liking Harry because it > >was such a kid thing to do. [snip] > >While Harry didn't get punished as some may have > >liked, Harry did learn a huge lesson which developed > >his moral conscience in a way expulsion, detention > >or point taking just wouldn't have done. And isn't > >that supposed to be the point, learning and > >developing? I have a problem equating following the rules with morality. There are immoral rules and laws, as well as morally neutral rules and laws that exist for the purpose of keeping the world organized (such as only letting kids who have permission go into Hogsmeade). The opposite, however--disorganization--is not 'immoral.' It's just inconvenient for those in charge, and sometimes, dangerous for those who break the rules, which might be in place for safety reasons. But breaking rules that are to keep people safe, if you're likely to be the one in danger by breaking them, is not 'immoral.' It might not be too bright, mind you, but it's not immoral. It IS moral to BREAK immoral rules and laws, IMO. JKR communicates this many times in her work. It is immoral to enslave another being. When Harry frees Dobby, he is technically taking away the Malfoys' property, which one might normally think of as immoral, but in this case it is moral because it was immoral for them to claim Dobby as property to begin with. It is also immoral to imprison an innocent man. Harry helps Sirius to escape unjust incarceration. One gets the impression that Dumbledore feels the dementor's kiss being given to ANYONE is an immoral and unjust punishment, and Harry's rescue of Sirius helps him to escape that too. In GoF, Barty Crouch, Jr. does not escape this, and by helping this immoral act to take place, Fudge also destroys any chance of useful testimony coming from Crouch. (If Fudge didn't do this for nefarious reasons, I'll eat my hat. It is also immoral to hurt another person to keep information about one's own immorality from emerging, which I believe is at the heart of this.) It is also moral to break rules for the purpose of protecting someone else. Harry, Hermione and Ron wanted to protect everyone from what would happen if Voldemort got his hands on the Philosopher's Stone. Neville was following the rules, trying to keep them in the common room, but his behavior was not moral, IMO. It was dangerous nitpicking that could have had disastrous results. (I'm still not convinced Dumbledore should have rewarded him for this.) When Harry and Ron return from the Chamber with Lockhart and Ginny, Dumbledore talks about the rules they've broken--and also gives them an award for services to the school. They performed a SERVICE by breaking the rules. What they did was more moral than merely obeying rules--saving a life, preventing Riddle from becoming more powerful, preventing a basilisk from continuing to terrorize the world. Rules can also be just plain random. If a school rule were passed saying that all students had to hop on their right feet when going down stairs, and on their left feet when going up, would it be 'immoral' to break that rule? Of course not. It is morally neutral. Most school rules are morally neutral, existing for ease of administration. If a student is out of his or her house after hours, it is not immoral in and of itself; if that student commits murder at that time, THAT is immoral. Harry is always highly moral. He cannot even bring himself to take Sirius' punishment into his own hands, when he thinks he's guilty, and, after he KNOWS Pettigrew is guilty, he cannot hurt him, either. He knows that that would make him a vigilante. I'm not sure that Harry does need to develop further morally, frankly. He has never wavered in this regard. Many of the adults around him, who have learned to compromise or whose lives seem centered around immorality (such as Lucius Malfoy) could learn a lesson or two on morality from our rule-breaking boy wizard. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu May 8 14:34:03 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:34:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperius Curse Message-ID: <1cd.919d653.2bebc4db@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57333 In a message dated 5/8/2003 3:57:18 AM Central Standard Time, Ali at zymurgy.org writes: > Although it would seem that Harry was > unusual in being able to throw off the curse, Ron is singled out as > having difficulties with it. I believe that this inability to resist > either the Veela or the Imperius curse will be significant later. > > Ali > So do I actually. Interestingly enough we get no hint as to how Hermione reacted under it. Wonder if that will be important later as well. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prongs at marauders-map.net Thu May 8 14:47:00 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:47:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion References: Message-ID: <010601c31570$af0f93e0$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 57334 ----- Original Message ----- From: "errolowl" Troels, I find it hard to believe that Wood played one player short. Where's the canon for that? SS 302: "You missed the last Quidditch match, we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw without you" Now, Ron says without *Harry* - not without a seeker. I assume someone else played seeker, probably whoever had that position before Harry if that person was still around. It makes no sense to play one player short, especially the seeker position, cause then Griffindor could never finish the match. They would never win even if they compiled a huge goal difference since they would be totally at the mercy of the other team to close the match. Actually... CoS 108, I believe...definitely ch. 7. The team's just been roused by Wood at the crack of dawn and they're in the locker room. "Harry shifted guiltily in his seat. He had been unconscious in the hospital wing for the final match of the previous year, meaning that Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst defeat in three hundred years." There's also the passage in Sorcerer's Stone, Ch. 13, I think, just after they find out Snape's refereeing. "Don't play," said Hermione at once. "Say you're ill," said Ron. "Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. "Really break your leg," said Ron. "I can't," said Harry. "There isn't a reserve Seeker. If I back out, Gryffindor can't play at all." I believe Harry'd know if there was a reserve seeker. However, that still leaves the question of why there wasn't a reserve seeker, and how literally we're to take the last part of that quote "if I back out, Gryffindor can't play at all." Apparently, they did play later that year, just one short. Betty From t.forch at mail.dk Thu May 8 14:50:38 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:50:38 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508150115.00e38ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508164916.00ea9e50@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57335 At 13:53 08-05-03 +0000, psychic_serpent wrote: >It IS moral to BREAK immoral rules and laws, IMO. Who gets to decide? When pedophiles find the prohibition against sex with children immoral, should we just accept that they break the 'rule'? Troels From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 8 15:22:11 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508150115.00e38ef0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030508152211.40461.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57336 --- Troels wrote: > Would it, BTW, be better to refer to Harry's > 'imperfections' than to his 'faults'? Lynn: Well, when talking about rule-breaking, I think mistakes or wrong choices is really more applicable. For me, faults or imperfections refer more to a person's character just as their virtues would. An example of a fault I think Harry has is putting to much emphasis on pride (ducks the flaming arrows). While it can serve him well at times (the Patronus comes to mind), it has also led him to do things he really shouldn't have done - such as the midnight duel - and is a weakness that Malfoy frequently exploits. Malfoy tries it again when he tells Harry that if it were him, Malfoy would go after Black trying to get Harry to do exactly that. However, faults can be corrected and I Harry does work on this as Voldemort's button-pushing would be much worse than Malfoy's. I also think that Malfoy can be obnoxious enough without having to resort to rule-breaking - and I won't get started on what I think his faults are. LOL Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 8 15:32:19 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:32:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality References: Message-ID: <000801c31577$03ec5fa0$4fccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57337 Barb wrote: > > It is also moral to break rules for the purpose of protecting > someone else. Harry, Hermione and Ron wanted to protect everyone > from what would happen if Voldemort got his hands on the > Philosopher's Stone. Neville was following the rules, trying to > keep them in the common room, but his behavior was not moral, IMO. > It was dangerous nitpicking that could have had disastrous results. > (I'm still not convinced Dumbledore should have rewarded him for > this.) Sorry for snipping a huge part of your post, but I didn't have anything to add to it, since I more or less agree. However, you question if Neville should have received points for trying to stop HHR from breaking the rules because you believe his behavior was immoral. Look at it from Neville's point of view, though. Their house is already in last place because three students, including him, were caught out of their quarters after hours. He had no knowledge of the Sorcerer's Stone or that someone is out to take it. He has no idea Voldemort is making a play at resurrecting himself. All he knows is that he and they have gotten in trouble before for being out after hours, and here are HHR, ready to go and do it again. Now, he likes them and doesn't want to see them get into trouble. He also feels guilty about losing Gryffindor 50 points, and is trying to save his house from losing tons of points again, because if HHR got caught again, who'd be feeling guilty? Neville, for not stopping them when he knew they were going to do something wrong again. In his eyes, it is his responsibility to all of the Gryffindors to attempt to stop HHR from breaking the rules again. Therefore, from his point of view, his act *is* moral. It would be different if he had complete understanding of the situation as HHR do, but he doesn't. Dumbledore was correct in giving Neville points, because Neville did what he believed to be the right thing, and you can be sure it wasn't easy for him to stand up to his friends. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 8 15:35:21 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperius Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030508153521.35453.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57338 --- Barb wrote: It looks to me like > a genuine Flint. > Pat yourself on the back! Lynn: I'm not so sure it's a mistake. While I don't think Harry was referring to the veela, I do think we're going to find out that Harry had experienced the Imperious Curse at another time. I wondered at first if it was when Voldemort made Harry bow but disregarded that. It wasn't until the class that Harry would understand what the feeling was. Unless JKR says it was a mistake, we'll just have to wait to see if it was an error or, in fact, a clue. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu May 8 15:35:18 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:35:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP not to be in paperback??? References: Message-ID: <029c01c31577$73fe19f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57339 Diane wrote: > I was in a Border's Bookstore today and was told by the clerk that > books 5-7 will never be issued in paperback, and that the seventh > book will be issued only as part of a boxed set. I find all that > very hard to believe, but wondered what anyone else has heard? That sounds like a load of bull to me. Just because someone works as a clerk behind the counter at a bookstore doesn't mean they know everything about books...doesn't even mean they know more than the average Joe about books. They just want to ring up your purchase and get you out of the store :P This doesn't apply to ALL bookstore workers, obviously. But i'd say it applies to the majority. When i worked at Eckerd, i didn't know jack about cosmetics or prescription drugs ;) > ~Diane (who never buys hardbacks and is VERY upset) Are you seriously going to wait months to read OoTP just because it first comes out in hardback?? They don't release hardbacks and paperbacks simultaneously. If so, you'll probably want to leave this list in the meantime...because we'll be discussing the hell out of it. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Thu May 8 15:42:49 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:42:49 -0400 Subject: Gryffindor Common Room (was: The Arts at Hogwarts) References: Message-ID: <02bc01c31578$7c8a40c0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57340 Reading the discussion about the artwork at Hogwarts brings me to a question i've been mulling around in my mind for quite some time. In PoA, when Sirius slashed the painting of the Fat Lady, the entire school heard about it. And that means that the entire school now knows where the Gryffindor common room is. Wouldn't that be a bit of a problem? Apparently the common room locations are supposed to be kept secret (just as Harry and Ron had no clue where the Slytherin room was when they polyjuiced themselves into Crabbe and Goyle). So instead of bringing the Fat Lady back to the same location, wouldn't it have been smarter to put a different painting in her place? What do you guys think? ~Katy~ Live in the southeast USA? Join the new HP4GU-Southeast-US regional group! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Southeast-US/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 8 16:10:43 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:10:43 -0000 Subject: The Diary; LV's mudblood ancestry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: < snipped answers pertaining to my own comments on the potency of Lucius Malfoys magical ability and his motivations for instigating the events of COS>> Ok, Maria you have succeeded in animating me :) I think i will take up your gauntlet and have a little wield about, to see if I can't edge your perspective on these things a little closer to mine. I am not, per se, "sure" that Dobby wasn't baited by Mr Malfoy. Thus causing his pursual of Harry. In fact I am willing to concede that it is very likely that he was. Although,.. what is your take on that? Did he bait Dobby to keep Harry away from Hogwarts during that year or was that an unplanned anomaly? Honestly, I dont believe that Lucius wanted Harry to be absent during the opening of the Chamber, and, failing any faith in a possibility of Lucius making such an early blunder in his plot, as to have his elf almost prevent Harry attending Hogwarts at all............... I would have to say that two large loopholes just appeared in this other wise applicable argument. We haven't seen a cunning Lucius? Was it not his cunning that had him placed as the Head of Hogwarts school? I see absolutely no reason to believe he has used his power as a Wizard to get him anything, anywhere. I have, however, on numerous occassions, observed that Lucius is notorious for his use of trickery and foul play, to make things happen his way in the WW. He bribes and blackmails his way in to positions of power and influence. It is reasonable to say, we havent seen him use magic yet so how can we judge? However, there has been at least one occassion in the books where he could have used magic, but, appeared to run like a coward. One would be at the resolution of COS, when Dobby threatened to use magic on him. Did he attempt to continue, beyond the threat of a HouseElf, to do his worst? No, he ran. Ok, so you could say we dont have evidence to call him a brilliant mind. However, it doesnt take a brilliant mind to be smooth, confident and premeditating. Why would he use the diary at 'Hogwarts?' to, primarily, bring upon Arthur Weasley? a downfall of his muggle protection act? Hogwarts and Wizard homes are very separate things. The Diary applied at Hogwarts, the protection act applied in Wizard Homes. How did Lucius correlate the two? I ask. It couldnt just be a simple matter of embarrassing Arthur, surely? If it was, why, would he not have instructed Draco to throw suspicion on Ginny once he had gained control of the ministry. A feat he managed by playing on their fear that Dumbledore was flailing. That would have been the pivotal ingredient, in a plot formed implicitly for the sake of veangeance on the Weasley's. Yet. He did not do it. In fact further than planting the diary on Ginny, he took no action to implicate Arthur or the Weasley Family in the crisis. Why? Because he had gotten what he wanted already. He had taken Dumbledore from his seat of power and put Harry and his friends in mortal danger. After managing that he put up his feet and refrained from further strategising. I assume because he counted on Tom Riddle to do the rest. I don't think he had 'no' reason to believe that Tom Riddle would not take up arms against the famous Harry Potter. My assumption is that he, being a man of wealth, knew he was in possession of a Dark Wizard Treasure in that diary. I have called Lucius weak as a sorcerer but I would not go so far as to say he is ignorant of the value of his own possessions. There would have been some myth and mystery surrounding the treasure he kept, and I am sure he had some confidence in a probable rumour that Lord Voldemort was stored within it. A very valuable treasure indeed. Which is likely to be the reason he didnt use it at some earlier time. Something of a Picasso perhaps? As for Harry being no threat to Lucius......... The training of a young wizard with such mysterious powers as Harry's would threaten any one on the opposing side to Harry. Is it not canon, Lucius likely sent his son, Draco, to his first year at Hogwarts with instructions to, shall we say, "recruit" Harry to his own following? We know it quickly failed, and so then Lucius had Harry's first year to plot a way to eliminate this, now, threat to the Dark Wizards reign. Namely a fully qualified Wizard HP on the side of good. In Harry's second year he instigated, what he believed to be a foolproof plot, to pit the inexperienced and incapable Harry against the strong and capable Tom Riddle. How could he not be of the assumption that somewhere in Hogwarts, someone would tell Tom, that Harry Potter defeated the Dark Lord Voldemort! and was here in this very school! with me! how amazing! Try being a teenager in the company of celebrity and able to completely disregard it. Its a small proportion of youngsters who fit that bill. Of course the diary would come by the hands of some child that would gush about the most amazing child of all wizard time being his/her classmate. Its an elementary proposition. Even a dummy like Lucius could make that connection. Its a 95% confidence interval. He could assume easily that Harry would be endangered by Tom Riddle at sometime in the year. Even if the gushing classmate syndrome didnt take Harry would surely pursue anyone who attacked his dear muggle friend Hermione. I'd like to be nice for a second, though. Ok, I agree that the bumping into the Weasleys could have been partially, if not fully, planned. It may not have been sheer coincedence, you are quite right. How far ahead he planned is my only question. :p Oh, and Last, but most certainly not least. We havent seen Dumbledore do any difficult magic? Aha, but, we are aware that Dumbledore is actively sorcering in the wizarding world, at the utmost levels beyond the comprehension of his students, through whom we view him. Also, If you don't think the rescue of Harry from Godrics Hollow, the protection of Harry throughout his life, the management of Hogwarts, the instilled fear in the self proclaimed "greatest wizard of all time", and respect of talented academics such as Snape and Macgonagall constitutes no evidence of powerful wizardry, I dont know how to prove to you what does. > Well, we haven't seen Dumbledore do much difficult magic either? Valky From suzchiles at pobox.com Thu May 8 16:22:10 2003 From: suzchiles at pobox.com (SUZANNE CHILES) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 09:22:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality Message-ID: <164df55164b622.164b622164df55@icomcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57342 Is this appropriate matter for discussion in this group? ----- Original Message ----- From: Troels Forchhammer Date: Thursday, May 8, 2003 7:50 am Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality > Who gets to decide? > When pedophiles find the prohibition against sex with children > immoral, > should we just accept that they break the 'rule'? > > Troels > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -------------------- > -~--> > Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. > No Late Fees & Free Shipping. > Try Netflix for FREE! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/s4wxlB/TM > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --~-> > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary > material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to > HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, > Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to > reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From sarudy at yahoo.com Thu May 8 14:00:47 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:00:47 -0000 Subject: "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importance and...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57343 Darrin says: > What has to be kept in mind is that Dumbledore seemed to be encouraging > Harry to go after the Stone, by getting him the cloak, explaining the mirror, and > kind of generally staying out of the way. Kk (me) says: Say, an authority setting up a situation where someone feels obliged to violate the rules... In the muggle world, don't we call that 'entrapment'? (kidding!) > Darrin > -- so glad to have restarted the band name trend Funny thing, I didn't name myself after the Springstein backup band (it is a Springstein backup band, right?). I've been using this pseudo since high school. Just a funny coincidence. Fred Waldrop says: > > If I am following your argument correctly, you are saying that Harry > and company need not to have risk life and limb, and everything would > have been alright. Am I close? In the one instance, from PS, well, yes. > If this is the case, what makes you think that Quirrel would have > been caught? If Harry had done nothing, Quirrel/Voldemort might not > have gotten the stone, but there is nothing to suggest anyone would > have known Voldemort was at Hogwarts. Nor is there anything to > suggest that Quirrel would not be back at Hogwarts the next year. Why > wouldn't he? No one would know he was anyone other than "pppoor > sttudddering Pperfessor Quirrl", would they? Well, Dumbledore clearly showed up very soon after Harry lost consciousness. So, had Harry not gone into the obstacle course, then Quirrel would most likely have spent the few minutes taken up by the confrontation to continue trying (and failing) to figure out the mirror. So he would have still been there when Dumbledore went in to investigate the fact that the traps had been sprung. The pitiful stutter would not have saved him from being caught red handed. > So, even if you believe that Harry put the stone in more harm by > going, he also showed everyone whom Quirrel really was supporting. > (plus who he was bringing onto the grounds of Hogwarts under his > smelly turban) Surely, once interrupted in his attempted theft, he would have been searched and subjected to magical examination. > Fred Waldrop -Kk From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Thu May 8 14:23:20 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:23:20 -0000 Subject: Harry,Draco and Morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57344 > Troehls wrote: > > > > It is interesting, > > by the way, that we don't see Draco breaking the rules much - > > he seems perfectly capable of being obnoxious without > > resorting to rule-breaking. Darrin replied: > But then again, I remember that Leg-Locker curse on Neville... Me(Linda): While I was reading this discussion my mind slipped back to an earlier thread where it was discussed at length that we see everything through Harry's POV. Since this is the case, how do we know whether Draco has a propensity to break rules or not? He would certainly not go bragging to Harry and company about having a detention. The student body is too large to think that HRH would automatically be aware of it whenever Draco gets into trouble. - Linda From jodel at aol.com Thu May 8 17:13:38 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:13:38 EDT Subject: Voldemort and the Dursleys Message-ID: <1c2.948c768.2bebea42@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57345 cgbrennan asks: << Does anyone think it's possible that the Riddles and the Dursleys could be related? That Harry is related to Voldemort on the MUGGLE side? >> Well given that Rowling has set the Dursleys up as "Riddle Lite" in just about every way she can, it is far from impossible. Even to the point that there very possibly was already magic in the Riddle family tree before Ms. "Marvolo" ever met them. The older Tom Riddle's behavior in walking out on a pregnant sweetheart/wife/mistress/ whatever for no reason other than that he discovered that she was a witch is simply Not Normal behavior given the rationalist direction that Muggle thought has taken since the ww split off and went into Seclusion. It is a lot more like what one might expect of a family that *knew* that magic existed -- and that the proper response is to shun it. At a guess, I might expect Squibs in the background who had left the wizarding world, or that one or other of the elder Tom's parents had been raised with a Muggle-born witch or wizard. If the parallel is exact, this is more likely to have been the old Mrs Riddle. We do not know her maiden name. It is far from impossible that she might have been related to the Evanses. Who, being "thrilled" to have a witch in the family, may have already known of the existence of magic before Lily was born. I suggest that it is possible that Lily and Petunia may have had a magical great-aunt, uncle or distant cousin who was an aunt, uncle or sibling of old Mrs Riddle. If the connection was through the female line on both sides the names on both ends would have been different and kept anyone from making the connection. HOWEVER, such a connection is not actually necessary to the storyline. Through Voldemort's own voluntary actions there have been sufficient exchanges of power, and now even blood between himself and Harry that, by the laws of similarity and contamination, he has already done what amounts to having "adopted" Harry into Slytherin's line of descent. The two of them are so entangled by this time that Harry is quite arguably *one* of Slytherin's "heirs" already. And so is Peter Pettigrew. Particularly if he was also at Godric's Hollow, and just about all circumstantial evidence is pointing in that direction. -JOdel From jodel at aol.com Thu May 8 17:13:41 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:13:41 EDT Subject: Wizard Cards and wizard ages Message-ID: <1a4.141432ef.2bebea45@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57346 Patricia Bullington-McGuire brings up the subject (on the wizard cards); << I see a bunch of wizards and witches living into their nineties and one nudging past 100, but none of these ages are out of the question for muggles -- out of the norm, yes, but not unheard-of. >> A number of the essays that I just uploaded to the Red Hen site touch on both the subjects of wizarding longevity and the fertility range ages of witches. Thery are too long to repost here. But, for what it's worth, I postulate that the current (potential) very long lifespans of wizards are at least in part artificially extended through specific, optional medimagical procedures which prolong the individual's period of full health and vigor. That, left to nature alone, a wizard's lifespan would be in the range of 90 to 115-120 years. And that a witch's fertile years reflect the same general range of 45% of this total that applies to the "average" Muggle woman's fertile period. The additional extension of health and vigor which may be added to a witch or wizard's life, most typically increases the time of full function of the individual's later years, effectively doubling them. Or, in short, witches and wizards do not remain young longer, they remain *old* longer. Plus, magic is a dangerous process. Practicing witches and wizards, particularly those in R & D fields are very likely to come to a sudden and messy end. I would propose that the rates of death by misadventure among wizards probably rank up there with death by cancer among Muggles. -JOdel From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 8 17:14:48 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:14:48 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins In-Reply-To: <3EBA47DA.DBF9D8B9@colfax.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa B wrote: > --- Lissa wrote: > < a long post that Harry Potter and Ginny > Weasley may be > Tom Riddle's biological > parents. > Lynn responded: > Big problem: Tom Riddle, Sr. was a Muggle, Harry is not. > Lissa then replied: > Without the proper ingredients, the ritual (in the graveyard GOF) should not have worked. I suspect part of the reason Dumbledore seems secretly pleased when he hears the details of the ritual is that Voldemort *did* get it a bit wrong. He used the bone of an enemy and the blood of his father. (And yes, I do think Dumbledore knows that HP is Voldemort's father.) Now Lissa, c'mon...... Its pure brilliance! How could you call it "hogwash" or "nonsense". I have long held the suspicion that the Voldemort story spans all known time in the wizarding world, but never, have I seen so much well concieved interpretation of book canon to back it up in such a enigmatic way. To me, this theory is outlandish to the nth degree but entirely concievable. I am not sure Jk will go as far as to place Ginny and Harry at the head of the Slytherin ancestry, but how can I know, she has caught me napping on so many occasions. I have no right to be judging \\\///*valky rises from her chair and kneels bowing and chanting "I am not worthy"*///\\\|*returns to her seat and continues*| what the Great One will write next. No, I did not err in my statement about the head of the Slytherin ancestry either. I think that Hermione insisting we all read 'Hogwarts a History' just once in our lifetimes is the big, seemingly inconsequential clue to the future of Harry Potter. THe ghost of the grey lady of Ravenclaw is the ghostly sadness to be revealed in future books. *^_^* I have just, now formulated the one question I would so like to ask JK to answer. What would Hermione tell me if I asked her who was the Grey lady? Oh, we are so wavering in improbableville on the edges of impossible- land, what a trifle if we proved to be even partway close to the real mystery of the continuing Harry potter saga. keep up the fun arm twisting Lissa I am with you. Valky From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 8 17:16:50 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:16:50 -0500 Subject: Why did the Potters have a Secret Keeper at all? Why not just hide? Message-ID: <20030508.121652.-541603.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57348 Me - Melanie L Ellis wrote: >>I think Prof. Trelawney and the centaurs predicted that Harry would be the downfall of LV. Since the >>centaurs also "saw" it, DD took it seriously. Either the prediction was vague enough that they had no >>idea when this would take place, or else there were some specifics that would have to play out before the >>downfall would occur. So DD and/or the MoM would need to be able to get hold of the Potters at >>some point to bring Harry into the mix to bring about the downfall of LV. Then Barb wrote: >While it is highly likely that Voldemort suspected that Harry would be a problem for him and that's why he >went after him while he was a helpless baby (like many figures in fairy tales/mythology who have >done the same thing) it seems far less likely that the Ministry or even Dumbledore had some sort of plan for >Harry to actively defeat Voldemort at some point. Many people in the wizarding world, like >McGonagall (a very respected professor) seem to place relatively little faith in Divination. I know they don't have much respect for Divination - but there doesn't seem to be the same disdain for some of the similar arts. Arithamancy seems to be respected (Hermoine says it makes much more sense, and there haven't been any comments from the staff to tell us otherwise.) and I believe they also have a Runes class? Also, Astronomy seems to be fine, and I think that's where the centaurs fit in. (Although I'm not sure, that's why I asked about the Astronomy classes.) I can't wait to find out more about the centaurs and what they saw in the stars back in PS/SS and before the story in the book. I think they know a *lot*. Hagrid doesn't seem to put much stock in what they say, but the way it reads to me, they're never really telling Hagrid anything, just spouting non sequitors at him - it doesn't make sense to him because he's not in a position to need to know anything. I think they do know what they're talking about, and told DD about it. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu May 8 15:18:03 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:18:03 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508164916.00ea9e50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 13:53 08-05-03 +0000, psychic_serpent wrote: > >It IS moral to BREAK immoral rules and laws, IMO. > > Who gets to decide? > When pedophiles find the prohibition against sex with children > immoral, should we just accept that they break the 'rule'? > > Troels That is a specious argument and you know it. Laws that are designed to prevent people from hurting others--this law and laws against murder, for instance, fall under this category--are moral by their nature. Laws which value property above individuals' freedom--such as laws that used to be in place permitting slavery--were immoral. Jim Crow laws were immoral. The people who bravely broke those laws or engaged in sit-ins to protest those immoral laws behaved morally, and accepted their punishment. Others, however, could no longer in good conscience continue to support those laws, seeing how these people willingly accepted punishment, and many of those arrested were not even people affected by the unjust laws but individuals who traveled long distances for the express purpose of breaking those laws and being arrested for it, as a form of protest. They could have remained in their homes, nice and safe and indifferent, but they did not do that. People breaking the sort of law you mention are doing it for selfish reasons and are hurting someone else. Apples and oranges. If you read the rest of my post, you would see that the issue is whether a person is being hurt versus whether the letter of the law is being followed just for the sake of following it, when NOT following it (helping an innocent man escape prison and the dementor's kiss) might be the moral choice. If following the law would produce more injustice, I believe--and it's clear from the books that JKR believes this too--we are morally obligated to break those laws, and by doing so attempt to bring about change, to touch people who might reexamine their consciences and decide to no longer support the injustice. It is very clear that a conflict of just this type is in the offing in future books, perhaps as soon as OotP. Many people in the wizarding world will probably be faced with a choice between 'following orders,' as Percy was when he worked for Crouch, and following their consciences. I have no doubt as to what Harry will do, and while in the short run the consequences may be dire, when we follow our consciences we have to expect that. In the long run, I believe he will be rewarded for his moral rectitude. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 17:27:27 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "A certain disregard for rules" (was Re: Harry's importance and...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030508172727.22456.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57350 Without repeating the long discussions on this, I would like to add my 2 cents that Harry really didn't put the Philosopher's Stone in anymore danger by going after it. There was no way Quirrell was going to be able to get that stone from him. By the time Dumbledore arrived, it's true Harry was passing out but it does look like Quireell was in far worse shape then Harry was. So if he hadn't gone after it, what would have happened? We don't know. Quite likely Dumbledore would have caught him but not necessarily. Also, since he had Voldemort's assistance and Voldy is quite sharp ("Best student we've ever had at Hogsworth" Dumbledore called him), it is possible they could have gotten past the mirror and secured it before Dumbledore arrived. Probably not but we'll never know for sure. But it was really quite safe in Harry's pocket! Dumbledore indicated to Harry, it was Harry's life he was worried about because other then possibly dying, he was doing "quite well." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu May 8 16:13:38 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:13:38 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508164916.00ea9e50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > When pedophiles find the prohibition against sex with children > immoral, should we just accept that they break the 'rule'? Let me gently suggest that we are venturing a bit into OT territory when we get into larger discussions of morality that are purely outside the canon. I'm not dismissing the validity of the question at all, nor the value of posing a provocative question in general, but this particular one runs the risk of touching off some flaming since it does not seem to tie in to the books in any way, unlike, say, historical comparisons of Voldemort to name-your-favorite-dictator, etc. Feel free to respond to me off-list if you disagree (or even if you agree). I will hazard a guess that JKR would herself consider pedophilia verboten to introduce, and one could only imagine the uproar otherwise -- and there are certainly numerous other forms of abuse within the books that strike me as entirely fair topics for discussion. People can (and do) argue, for example, that the Dursleys' treatment of Harry should be considered a form of child abuse, that Snape's meanness to the students should be considered a form of student abuse, and so on. In fact, vices/sins in general don't seem to be a problem -- we have gambling (notably at the World Quidditch Cup), drinking (notably Hagrid's), theft, murder -- and if any neighbor had a spouse, or a horse, or an ass, I don't doubt that there would be a bit of coveting going on as well. And speaking of favorite dictators, I don't think I've noticed in any posts (or in those parts of the archive that I have perused) that Salazar was the name of a long-time dictator of Portugal. Perhaps we will eventually learn that S. Slytherin was heavily involved in the formation of Gringott's or something like that (the Portuguese Salazar was a Finance Minister prior to becoming Prime Minister). Ersatz Harry From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 8 17:28:50 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: Harry and Morality Message-ID: <20030508.122850.-541603.2.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57352 Barb wrote: >It is also moral to break rules for the purpose of protecting someone else. Harry, Hermione and Ron >wanted to protect everyone from what would happen if Voldemort got his hands on the >Philosopher's Stone. Neville was following the rules, trying to keep them in the common room, but his >behavior was not moral, IMO. It was dangerous nitpicking that could have had disastrous results. >(I'm still not convinced Dumbledore should have rewarded him for this.) Now me, Melanie: Neville's behavior was perfectly moral, *based on what he knew*. You say it's moral to break rules for the purpose of protecting someone - Neville was trying to protect Gryffindor House from getting more points taken away. All he knew what they HRH was trying to sneak out *again*. He didn't know what was happening re: The Stone, and they didn't have time to explain it to him. I think they all did the best they could with the facts they had in hand at the moment. I bet the poor boy felt like a right idiot after he found out what was going on, and that he'd tried to stop them! Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From wolffe at cox.net Thu May 8 16:33:04 2003 From: wolffe at cox.net (Jennifer Todd) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:33:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion References: <010601c31570$af0f93e0$0201a8c0@bettysue> Message-ID: <003601c3157f$7fbd5410$0301a8c0@tigger> No: HPFGUIDX 57353 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Silver Stag said: CoS 108, I believe...definitely ch. 7. The team's just been roused by Wood at the crack of dawn and they're in the locker room. "Harry shifted guiltily in his seat. He had been unconscious in the hospital wing for the final match of the previous year, meaning that Gryffindor had been a player short and had suffered their worst defeat in three hundred years." There's also the passage in Sorcerer's Stone, Ch. 13, I think, just after they find out Snape's refereeing. "Don't play," said Hermione at once. "Say you're ill," said Ron. "Pretend to break your leg," Hermione suggested. "Really break your leg," said Ron. "I can't," said Harry. "There isn't a reserve Seeker. If I back out, Gryffindor can't play at all." I believe Harry'd know if there was a reserve seeker. However, that still leaves the question of why there wasn't a reserve seeker, and how literally we're to take the last part of that quote "if I back out, Gryffindor can't play at all." Apparently, they did play later that year, just one short. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jenn's Reply is: This particular plot point really has bothered me. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why on earth Wood would continue with the match sans seeker. Considering the only way to end a match is for the seeker to catch the snitch, how could he justify playing without a (any) seeker present? If POA, Flint calls off the match because of Injured!Draco, and they end up playing HufflePuff (thus introducing Cedric Diggory). Why is it that Wood wouldn't be able to do the same when his seeker is not just injured, but totally unaware? Jenn Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 8 17:54:49 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:54:49 -0000 Subject: Imperius Curse In-Reply-To: <7a.addcf71.2708cef3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57354 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SHENmagic at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 10/1/00 10:19:51 AM, HPforGrownups at egroups.com writes: > > >-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, fluctuation at r... wrote: >One thing that really bugs me is why Moody/Barty Crouch Jr. >would make Harry go through the Imperius curse over and over again >until he got it right? Wouldn't he have realised that Voldrmort >might need the curse to take control of Harry? >Possibly, he was making Harry go through the Imperius curse over and >over again in the hopes that he would wear Harry down.....? Well I see where your coming from. Crouch was nothing if not an Able wizard and Loyal, very loyal to his master LV. Not, however, infallible. "As ability is not infallibility." |Good quote don't know where it comes from?| Crouch is also Vain, vain, vain and that, fluctuation at r, is his weakness making him fallible in his loyalty to LV. He would not conciously, deliberately jeopardised his masters plan. However, I am sure that such a strong challenge to his vanity as an amateur wizard he could not control with an Imperius curse, would persuade him to focus only on a positive aspect to continuing the lesson. ie of course that it would help Harry win the TriWizard tournament. I am not saying that this is why he did it. I am quite sure it passed, though, as a reasonable excuse, via his vanity, to continue in disregard of other consequence. Upon failing, he had to put on a brave act that this was a wonderful development in Harry's progress. Though, inside he was cursing dramatically. Outside he was performing the role of 'Alastor Moody. Auror and DADA teacher at Hogwarts'. It may, or may not, have occurred to him at some consecutive interval that he had done the wrong thing. If it had, I am sure he was able to console himself with his faith in Voldies omnipotence. Valky From t.forch at mail.dk Thu May 8 18:05:36 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:05:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508164916.00ea9e50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508193257.00ed13b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57355 At 15:18 08-05-03 +0000, psychic_serpent wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > wrote: > > At 13:53 08-05-03 +0000, psychic_serpent wrote: > >>It IS moral to BREAK immoral rules and laws, IMO. > > > > Who gets to decide? > > When pedophiles find the prohibition against sex with children > > immoral, should we just accept that they break the 'rule'? > >That is a specious argument and you know it. Of course it is and of course I know. It is, however, no more specious than the opposite argument - and that is what I tried to make obvious. I am sure that we will agree almost completely on what constitutes just or morally right laws and what constitutes bad or immoral laws. I also agree that this conflect seems to be coming up in the books - and I am sure that Harry will do what is morally right which will include fighting the authorities of the magical community. My aim is to issue a warning not to automatically accept breaking unjust laws, because of the danger involved when you allow people to define for themselves what constitutes just and unjust laws. The laws of any society must be considered just when they reflect the moral viewpoint of the majority of the society, and not when a small group of individuals are unhappy with them - otherwise we end up justifying acts that we find reprehensible - like the specious argument I used before. Therefore we shouldn't, IMO, /normally/ accept it when people break laws. The border-line case is the open breaking of the law as a political statement - like the sit-ins you mention. These people don't 'just' break the law - they do so openly and accept the punishment. By accepting the punishment, they also accept that the rules society as a whole are above themselves as individuals - had they attempted to hide their lawbreaking, they would, IMO, have put themselves above society - something I can't condone of. The point I wish to drive home is that it is /not/ up to the individual itself to decide which laws should be broken because they are unjust. Allowing that leads to a justification of all sorts of reprehensible acts. One simply cannot, IMO, build a moral system on the idea that it is OK to do A if the person agrees with oneself, but it is punishable if the person doesn't agree with oneself. Troels From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu May 8 18:12:10 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 19:12:10 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Memory charms References: <1052345292.3511.8107.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c3158d$5b048220$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 57356 LIWY wrote: > > There seems to be no real reason to obliviate the (muggle) families of > Hogwarts students-they are already moderately familiar with the magical > world. I suspect that there are different degrees of charms that are used, depending on who's involved. Although the immediate muggle relatives of Hogwarts students would have some familiarity with the WW, there would need to be safeguards that an unscrupulous one wouldn't try to sell their story to the Sun (am I right that the nearest US equivalent is the National Enquirer? Something like that, anyway...) for as much ackers as they could get. Also that more distant relatives don't twig what's going on. It's probably ok for Hermione's parents to know, but what about Cousin Emma, Granny, Granny's hairdresser, and so on. All of which leaves me thinking that there is some sort of long-lasting charm applying to the student and parents which means that anything they say about the WW just goes in one ear and out of the other one, the same way as I think that wizard houses are charmed so that a muggle would walk past and just not notice it's there. Full scale Memory Charms, on the other hand, are for serious breaches of security, dragons popping up in the middle of Birmingham, terrorist atrocities by DEs ("yes, of course I shot down the airliner, Dark Lord, it got in the way of my broomstick"), industrial accidents ("oops, the potions workshop has blown up and entoaded 150 muggles") and so on. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 8 18:01:44 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:01:44 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups][OOP] Quidditch Reserves (was Re: Harry's importance and threats In-Reply-To: <20030507231216.88089.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57357 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > --- Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > In that case Wood would surely have fielded someone as Seeker in > > that catastrophy match where Harry was missing. I prefer to > > believe that Wood wasn't as good a captain as we have been let to > > believe .... > > Lynn: > > I agree that if reserves were the norm, than Wood > did let the team down. But, do we know that all > the teams have reserves? ...edited... > > Lynn bboy_mn: My theory on the Reserves. I don't think the reserves are the 'B' squad or the bench warmers. I think team develope reserves when they have players who are about to leave and need to train replacements for them. Katie Bell was probably on the reserve team the previous year because it was the last year for one of the Chasers. That Chaser left and Katie Bell who had been training, took her spot. As far as Wood and reserves, I think Wood saw that he had a solid team with all positions filled and that these players all had a few years left to serve the team, so he didn't see an immediate need to train a reserve team. In his eyes, he had the best players available and there was no point in wasting his time on second best. Although, I think we can all see how short sighted that was. Regarding the game and the missing player, as others have pointed out, Wood may have moved one of the Chasers or Beaters to the Seeker position. That would give them a functioning team while leaving them one player short. Remember, it's only from Harry's point of view that we are told they played one player short. Ron says they played without Harry, but doesn't say that they played with a position unfilled. It could be they picked another Gryffindor who knew how to fly to play the missing postition (whether seeker or other), but since that player hadn't been practicing, his/her skills were rusty and their team work was weak, so they were unable to function effectively. In a sense, the new player was an outsider, and wasn't really able to function within the framework of the team; therefore, the new play was more of a dead weight than a help. There seems to be an implication that a players can't be substituted while the game is in play (the one exception is the professional game that went on for weeks), but we see that the Slytherins show up for a match with all new players. Jordan comments that Flint seems to be going for size this time rather than skill. That would imply that you can start the game with new players. So, either Wood thought that bringing a new player in at the last minute would be more of a hinderance than a help, or they pick someone with some known flying skill, who was ineffective as a member of the team. Either way, it was the same as playing one player short. I suspect, Wood shifted and existing player to a new position, and player one player short. It seems reasonable to me that a last minute, un-practiced, un-trained player would be more in the way than a help. Just a thought. bboy_mn From t.forch at mail.dk Thu May 8 18:22:50 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:22:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508164916.00ea9e50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508201216.00ed4380@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57358 At 16:13 08-05-03 +0000, Ersatz Harry wrote: >Let me gently suggest that we are venturing a bit into OT territory >when we get into larger discussions of morality that are purely >outside the canon. I'm not dismissing the validity of the question at >all, nor the value of posing a provocative question in general, but >this particular one runs the risk of touching off some flaming since >it does not seem to tie in to the books in any way, unlike, say, >historical comparisons of Voldemort to name-your-favorite-dictator, >etc. Feel free to respond to me off-list if you disagree (or even if >you agree). Let me rephrase then. As far as I am concerned there is no way of formulating an ethical principle that allows Harry to do something and doesn't allow Draco to do the exact same thing. The only way to distinguish is to point out that Harry (usually) do things we agree with, while Draco normally do things we don't agree with, but if we raise that to an ethical principle, we automatically raise ourselves (as individuals) to be the final arbiters of right and wrong - something I would feel very uncomfortable with, and something I cannot see any moral justification for. Troels From grace701 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 18:39:23 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2774 In-Reply-To: <1052407302.1668.43392.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030508183923.71230.qmail@web14509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57359 Melissa wrote: >Actually I don't think it is a FLINT. The GOF passage doesn't >state that he >was thinking of the Veela specifically just that it was the third >time in his >life when he had felt that blissful (untracable) happiness. >According to >canon it is pretty much undeniable from the description that >he'd had that >feeling at least twice before the graveyard. Melissa wrote in another post: >So do I actually. Interestingly enough we get no hint as to how >Hermione reacted under it. Wonder if that will be important >later as well. ************************************************* I always thought that perhaps what JKR meant by three was that Moody put him under the curse 2 times and then finally Harry was able to "defeat" it and then the third time was with Voldemort. But I think Moody did it more than 2 times. I can't remember, as always. Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 8 18:24:45 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:24:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508164916.00ea9e50@pop3.norton.antivirus> <4.3.2.7.2.20030508193257.00ed13b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <003f01c3158f$1a62e020$4fccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57360 From: "Troels Forchhammer" > > The laws of any society must be considered just when > they reflect the moral viewpoint of the majority of > the society, and not when a small group of individuals > are unhappy with them - otherwise we end up justifying > acts that we find reprehensible - like the specious > argument I used before. Therefore we shouldn't, IMO, > /normally/ accept it when people break laws. I understand you were replying to the pedophile bit when you talk about justifying reprehensible acts, but this bit did bring to mind a different scenario, OoP related. The MoM, to the best of our knowledge, makes the laws for the WW, or at least the British portion of it. Ostensibly, these laws reflect the majority's views. I definitely see Fudge as being a guy who will do what the majority of his constituents want him to do. Right now, I do believe that the majority of his constituents (pre-Cedric's death) wish to believe Voldemort is gone for good, the dark days are over, and they and their families will remain safe. It helps (or doesn't help) that Fudge personally is in agreement with his constituents' desires. Because of his personal beliefs, and because of his desire to maintain power, he will uphold his constituents desires so, therefore, the events of the Triwizard Tournament had nothing to do with Voldemort. It was just a tragic accident, and everything else was the story of a boy seeking more fame (Harry) and a few teachers who wish to start a panic (Dumbledore, Snape). Ok, wandering into speculation here. We have heard that there will be a rift in the WW between those who side with Dumbledore and those who side with Fudge (that's not to count those siding with Voldemort or those who don't know what to believe). Let's say that the majority, for whatever reason, choose to side with Fudge. They don't want to believe the Dark Lord has returned, or they truly believe that Harry Potter vanquished him 14 years ago, whatever. Therefore, we now have a majority who side with the MoM and whatever laws they wish to create. Of course, we know that Dumbledore and those loyal to him will oppose Voldemort until they are all dead or until he is dead. By opposing Voldemort, they will most likely, at some point, find themselves in opposition to the laws laid down by the MoM as well. Which has the potential to make them lawbreakers, criminals, in the eyes of the MoM. Since Dumbledore's group is a small group of individuals who are unhappy with the view the MoM has taken, does that make DD's group immoral? Does this mean the MoM is moral simply because they are in the majority? In the previous war with Voldemort, Aurors were given the power to kill suspects instead of bringing them in. They were given the sanction to use the Unforgivable Curses. As we saw with Sirius Black, it was ok to send suspected DE's to prison without a trial. Because these measures are supported by a majority, does this make them moral? I understand that laws are made in part to prevent a small group of individuals from justifying reprehensible acts (like pedophilia), but I think we need to be careful before saying that any law made and enforced by a majority is automatically moral and should never be broken. I understand that this could be true even 90% of the time (or even higher), but that does not mean it is true 100% of the time. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu May 8 18:40:58 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:40:58 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508193257.00ed13b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > The border-line case is the open breaking of the law as > a political statement - like the sit-ins you mention. I'm not sure why this is 'border-line.' This is exactly the sort of thing Harry does when he frees Dobby. To bring this back to the Harry Potter books, in one of the schoolbooks, Quidditch Through the Ages, a letter is quoted that is supposed to be from a witch who couldn't vote for the Minister of Magic. (Something like, "If I had a vote, he would have lost mine." Forgive the paraphrase.) This implies that there was a time in wizarding society when women were disenfranchised. While we don't know how or when that changed, it's quite possible that it occurred after law-breaking similar to what occurred in Muggle society: women chained themselves to the gates of Parliament, among other things, to protest their not having the vote. There were some violent crimes as well, which are not something I condone at all, even in pursuit of an unjust law being overturned. But breaking that unjust law--a woman attempting to vote while that was against the law--doesn't hurt anyone and brings the society closer to change. I'd love to get more background on the history of Magical Britain from JKR. She's spoken of writing a sort of encyclopedia of this sort. I hope it would include information about things like this! > The point I wish to drive home is that it is /not/ up > to the individual itself to decide which laws should > be broken because they are unjust. Allowing that leads > to a justification of all sorts of reprehensible acts. > One simply cannot, IMO, build a moral system on the > idea that it is OK to do A if the person agrees with > oneself, but it is punishable if the person doesn't > agree with oneself. I reckon we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. IMO, it is indeed up to the individual to determine when he/she has had it with being complicit in injustice and to take action. Sometimes people who are punished for breaking unjust laws are ahead of their time and become martyrs to the cause, which doesn't get resolved for years. The zeitgeist of the era will determine whether the time is ripe for the sort of change the originator of the idea is trying to bring about. As I said, while some violent acts were committed by women trying to change the law so that they could vote, their goal did not, in fact, justify what they did. Nothing is a justification of violence or terrorism, and in fact, it is likely to damage the reputation of the movement and make it less likely that change will occur in the near future, as sympathy is more likely to lie with the victim(s) of the violence. It is self-defeating. If Hermione put Cruciatus on anyone who owned a house-elf, that would not be justified by her desire to free them. For one thing, by doing that, she is not breaking the law that permits people to own house-elves, which is the immoral law; she would be breaking laws against attacking people magically, and specificially, performing an Unforgivable Curse. Dumbledore mentioned that Aurors during the first reign of terror under Voldemort had to power to put the Unforgivable Curses on suspects. IMO, that was immoral, because even if the end desired was to apprehend a dangerous Death Eater, the law against putting those curses on people exists, I should think, because it is in general a reprehensible thing to either kill someone, to torture them, or to take away their free will. Just because a law is passed saying Aurors can do this doesn't make it moral. It means that the Aurors have sunk as low as their counterparts if they give in and do the same thing as the people they are fighting, which would only produce a Pyrrhic victory in the end, in which they have beaten a Death Eater but lost their souls. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http:/www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 18:58:34 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:58:34 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Origins and Where Voldemort did his Killing In-Reply-To: <3EBA165C.1DFC4345@colfax.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57362 Lissa wrote: > I believe Harry Potter and Ginny Weasley may be Tom Riddle's > biological parents. Now me: Off the top of my head, I can think of two quotes from canon that don't support this theory: Dumbledore to Harry (Ch. 18 Of CoS): "...Lord Voldemort ? who is the last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin ? " If Harry and Ginny were Voldemort's parents, one or the other would have to also be a descendant of Slytherin, and Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to make this statement. Ch. 1 Of PoA: "Uncle Vernon, Aunt Petunia and their son, Dudley, were Harry's only living relatives." Voldemort didn't make this list of Harry's "only living relatives." The "other" Mrs. Weasley asked: > Was LV killing just those in Britain? Now me: In an October 2000 Scholastic interview, JKR was asked: Q: "How does the Dark Lord affect American wizards and witches?" JKR: "He affects everyone, but his plan is European domination first." And the link: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm ~Phyllis From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 8 19:04:33 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <003601c3157f$7fbd5410$0301a8c0@tigger> Message-ID: <20030508190433.53755.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57363 --- Jennifer wrote: Why is it that Wood wouldn't be able > to do the same when his seeker is not just > injured, but totally unaware? Lynn: I've thought about this too and the only thing I've been able to come up with is that it was the last match of the season. After all, Harry is only let out of the hospital wing to attend the Leaving Feast. So, there may not have been another time to schedule the match and Wood may also have felt that Gryffindor could score enough points before the snitch was caught to still have a victory. That being said, what I don't understand is why the match was held so late in the semester. It was after exams were over. Yet, in PoA, the final game is before exams. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 8 19:06:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:06:10 -0000 Subject: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: <003601c3157f$7fbd5410$0301a8c0@tigger> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57364 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Todd" wrote: > > Harry referring to the Snape officiated Quidditch match: > "I can't," said Harry. "There isn't a reserve Seeker. If I back out, > Gryffindor can't play at all." > > I believe Harry'd know if there was a reserve seeker. However, that > still leaves the question of why there wasn't a reserve seeker, and > how literally we're to take the last part of that quote "if I back > out, Gryffindor can't play at all." Apparently, they did play later > that year, just one short. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jenn's Reply is: > > This particular plot point really has bothered me. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why on earth Wood would continue with the match sans seeker. .... If POA, Flint calls off the match because of Injured!Draco, and they end up playing HufflePuff (thus introducing Cedric Diggory). Why is it that Wood wouldn't be able to do the same when his seeker is not just injured, but totally unaware? > > Jenn bboy_mn: Flint simply convinced the administration to reschedule the match to accomodate Draco's injured arm. That seems like a resonable concession at the beginning of the Quidditch season. However, the game during which Harry was injured was at the end of the season and there was no opportunity to reschedule or postpone. Wood was forced to field his team and play the game, or forfeit. Wood would never go down without a fight, so he played the team he had. He may have moved another play to Seeker, and player short one Chaser or one Beater. Or, he may have designated himself as Seeker, and tried to guard the goal post while playing Seeker. Or he may have pulled a player from the Gryffindor student body at random, but lacking any training, that new player would have been very ineffective. Either way they were forced to play with that handicap, or just plain forfeit the game, and Wood doesn't seem like the forfeiting type. Just a thought. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 8 19:38:42 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperius Curse In-Reply-To: <1cd.919d653.2bebc4db@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030508193842.93743.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57365 --- Ali wrote: > > Although it would seem that Harry was > > unusual in being able to throw off the curse, > Ron is singled out as > > having difficulties with it. I believe that > this inability to resist > > either the Veela or the Imperius curse will > be significant later. Lynn: I don't see that Ron was singled out as having difficulties with it. It seems many in the the class couldn't resist it either, all those that came before Harry. What's said is the Ron had much more difficulty than Harry. (GoF, p. 205, UK) Therefore, Ron may have done better than others in the class, just not as good as Harry. I, too, find it interesting that Hermione isn't mentioned with relation to how well she was able to deal with it. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Thu May 8 19:25:32 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:25:32 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57366 cgbrennan wrote: "I know there is no evidence for this, but with speculation growing regarding new information on the Dursleys... Does anyone think it's possible that the Riddles and the Dursleys could be related? That Harry is related to Voldemort on the MUGGLE side?[...]" Mmmh, that's certainly something I have never thought of before. And quite believeable at that. I mean, I firmly believe in the theory that Harry and Voldemort are related. My main point being there that in the books JKR goes on and on about the similarities between family members (no matter, if you take the Weasley hair, Lucius and Draco or Harry's resemblance to his father and mother) and then you are trying to tell me that Harry and Tom Riddle who "look alike" (Cos) don't have some connection? Even if it's only around several corners. And I also think there is an eerie similarity between the Dursley's and Riddle's attitudes towards magic. Now, not to say that many other Muggles won't think bad about wizards but from the cases where we hear about it, it doesn't seem too much of a problem (Hermione's parents, the Creevey's parents, Seamus' father). Hmm, nothing further really that can support this idea (I think), but it'd certainly be an interesting twist. -Sabrina (Who just joined and is already basking in e-mails and theories and enjoying it) From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Thu May 8 20:07:46 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:07:46 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins In-Reply-To: <3EBA165C.1DFC4345@colfax.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa B wrote: > That concludes my excursion into absurd Potterly conjecture. I > apologize for the length of this post. I freely admit my theory sounds > ridiculous and may be completely wrong. (Some days I don't believe it > myself.) > > > ~Lissa Rosebeth (Me): This is a very interesting theory. I personally disagree with it. First we know, from PA, that people who time travel can kill there past or future selves. I'm at work without the books so I can't site chapter. So, if you can kill yourself you should be able to kill your father. Additionally. If we assume that everything you said in your post is true, then it raises some rather large questions. Who took Riddle back to the past and why? And why would Harry and Ginny allow this? We know that Harry has spent his whole life wanting a family of his own, who will treat him diffently then his aunt and uncle. PS/SS the opening chapters where he discribes dreams of a distant relation coming and taking him away and of course, the mirror. Why would Harry allow his own son to be taken away from him? If you assume that Harry is dead when this decision is made then why take Tom back in time and not allow the Weasley's (Tom's biologoical family) to raise him in the present? Unless, Harry isn't dead, but rather Tom is kidnapped. But then this brings me back to my first question. Who would take him and why? I've run out of questions, so I'll end here. Rosebeth From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Thu May 8 20:15:41 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:15:41 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins In-Reply-To: <3EBA165C.1DFC4345@colfax.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa B wrote: > That concludes my excursion into absurd Potterly conjecture. I > apologize for the length of this post. I freely admit my theory sounds > ridiculous and may be completely wrong. (Some days I don't believe it > myself.) > > > ~Lissa Rosebeth (Me): This is a very interesting theory. I personally disagree with it. First we know, from PA, that people who time travel can kill there past or future selves. I'm at work without the books so I can't site chapter. So, if you can kill yourself you should be able to kill your father. Additionally. If we assume that everything you said in your post is true, then it raises some rather large questions. Who took Riddle back to the past and why? And why would Harry and Ginny allow this? We know that Harry has spent his whole life wanting a family of his own, who will treat him diffently then his aunt and uncle. PS/SS the opening chapters where he discribes dreams of a distant relation coming and taking him away and of course, the mirror. Why would Harry allow his own son to be taken away from him? If you assume that Harry is dead when this decision is made then why take Tom back in time and not allow the Weasley's (Tom's biologoical family) to raise him in the present? Unless, Harry isn't dead, but rather Tom is kidnapped. But then this brings me back to my first question. Who would take him and why? I've run out of questions, so I'll end here. Rosebeth From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu May 8 20:31:56 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (flamingstarchows at att.net) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:31:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperius Curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57369 I think it is referring to the actual feeling "that his mind had been wiped of all thought..." rather than the actual Imperius Curse. The first time would probably have been the effect of the Veela the very first time he saw them (when he was ready to dive out of the box). ~Cathy~ > In Goblet of Fire, Moody (crouch) puts Harry through the Imperius > Curse "four times in a row" until he can throw it off completely, > after having almost thrown it off the first time Moody/Crouch cursed > him with it. (p. 231, american) > > Later, when Voldemort uses it against Harry, JK writes that "And > Harry felt, the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind > had been wiped of all thought..." (p.661) > > Third time? There is no mention of a time between the first day in > class and then with Voldemort that Harry is cursed, and since it was > done more than twice on the first day, it can't be the third since > then. From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Thu May 8 18:24:38 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:24:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Imperius Curse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052418278.3ebaa0e615663@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 57370 Quoting Monita : > > >-- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, fluctuation at r... wrote: > >One thing that really bugs me is why Moody/Barty Crouch Jr. > >would make Harry go through the Imperius curse over and over again > >until he got it right? Wouldn't he have realised that Voldrmort > >might need the curse to take control of Harry? > >Possibly, he was making Harry go through the Imperius curse over and > >over again in the hopes that he would wear Harry down.....? >He would not > conciously, deliberately jeopardised his masters plan. However, I am > sure that such a strong challenge to his vanity as an amateur wizard > he could not control with an Imperius curse, would persuade him to > focus only on a positive aspect to continuing the lesson. ie of > course that it would help Harry win the TriWizard tournament. > Upon failing, he had to put on a brave act that this was a wonderful > development in Harry's progress. Though, inside he was cursing > dramatically. Outside he was performing the role of 'Alastor Moody. > Auror and DADA teacher at Hogwarts'. It may, or may not, have > occurred to him at some consecutive interval that he had done the > wrong thing. If it had, I am sure he was able to console himself with > his faith in Voldies omnipotence. > Valky > On to my Opinion (Amber) While I agree in part that Crouch!Moody did the Imperious Curse as part of his role of Alastor, I am reluctant to agree that he was not aware of what he was doing to LV's plans. I see it as a test of sorts. He (Crouch Jr.) probably figured that LV was going to do all three of the Unforgivables on Harry, but in what order. We know from the book that Crouch is keeping LV up to date on the happenings by owl. Perhaps he was encouraged to give the lesson to determine if Harry COULD fight the curse. Reasonably, Moody!Crouch can not do the Cruciartus curse on his students. But if LV was going to do the Imperious curse, wouldn't it be good to know if the person you are doing it on could fight it? Yes, LV does put the Imperious curse on Harry at the graveyard. But I don't think Harry would have responded without the push from Voldemort, even a negative push. LV was surprised Harry could fight it, but I think surprised that he-who-considers-himself-the-best-wizard was surprised Harry beat HIM! Just a thought....hope I snipped well... :) -- Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 20:38:51 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:38:51 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor Common Room In-Reply-To: <02bc01c31578$7c8a40c0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57371 Katy wrote: > In PoA, when Sirius slashed the painting of the Fat Lady, the > entire school heard about it. And that means that the entire school > now knows where the Gryffindor common room is. Wouldn't that be a > bit of a problem? Now me: That question has occurred to me as well, but I'm not so sure the rest of the school found out where the Gryffindor common room was as a result of this incident. When the students are sent to the Great Hall to sleep in their squashy purple sleeping bags, PoA reads: "The Hall immediately began to buzz excitedly; the Gryffindors were telling the rest of the school what had just happened" (Ch. 9). I think the rest of the school could be told what happened without giving away the location of the common room. For example, one student could tell another: "The portrait guarding our common room entrance was slashed when the occupant of the portrait wouldn't let Black in without the password." Since there are lots of portraits around Hogwarts, the other student would still be in the dark as to which one it was. And even if the particular portrait was revealed, the students in the other houses wouldn't have the password, so they still wouldn't be able to get in. ~Phyllis From lissbell at colfax.com Thu May 8 20:45:49 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:45:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins References: Message-ID: <3EBAC1FD.E0B5E091@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57372 > > --- Lissa wrote: > > < a long post that Harry Potter and Ginny > > Weasley may be > > Tom Riddle's biological > > parents. Valky wrote: > I have long held the suspicion that the Voldemort story spans all > known time in the wizarding world... Lissa: Dumbledore's 'last ancestor' comment made me wonder about this briefly--especially since any reasonable editor should have caught the misused word and asked JKR to correct it--but I hadn't entertained it as a serious possibility until I read your response. You may well be right. Very intriguing! Valky: > No, I did not err in my statement about the head of the Slytherin > ancestry either. I think that Hermione insisting we all > read 'Hogwarts a History' just once in our lifetimes is the big, > seemingly inconsequential clue to the future of Harry Potter. > THe ghost of the grey lady of Ravenclaw is the ghostly sadness to be > revealed in future books. Lissa: Your theory fascinates me. I think the reason I'd never considered it seriously--despite Dumbledore's use of 'ancestor'--is that I want to believe Harry will triumph over Voldemort. Voldemort escaping to the ancient past would almost certainly preclude that. Still, I think there's a very good chance you're right. I'll have to go back, re-read and pay closer attention to the grey lady. Thanks for giving me so much to think about here. ~Lissa From meboriqua at aol.com Thu May 8 20:43:13 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:43:13 -0000 Subject: Breaking the Rules (was Harry and Morality) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508201216.00ed4380@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > As far as I am concerned there is no way of formulating an > ethical principle that allows Harry to do something and > doesn't allow Draco to do the exact same thing. The only > way to distinguish is to point out that Harry (usually) do > things we agree with, while Draco normally do things we > don't agree with, but if we raise that to an ethical > principle, we automatically raise ourselves (as > individuals) to be the final arbiters of right and wrong - > something I would feel very uncomfortable with, and > something I cannot see any moral justification for.> I will address the above post in a moment but first I want to point out an example of rule/law breaking that I'm not sure has been mentioned. In PoA, Fudge excused Harry for his performance of underage magic at the Dursley home. Fudge was, of course, looking out for his own interests but was also protecting Harry. Should Harry have been expelled and arrested for what happened to Aunt Marge which was as much out of Harry's hands as Dobby's actions in CoS? As far as Harry and Draco similarly breaking the rules, I think motive has to be taken into account as well, which is certainly something the laws take into consideration here in the US. What were Draco's motives when he and his cronies dressed as Dementors during a Quidditch Game? Draco knew the Dementors scared the hell out of Harry and made him sick to boot. Draco is also aware (as we all are) of the fact that Quidditch can be dangerous. Maybe Draco thought he was being funny here, but he also knew he could have seriously injured Harry. I can't think of too many times when Harry's goal was to hurt someone else. Sneaking around in his invisibility cloak at night or to Hogsmeade is not the brightest thing to do, but the only damage Harry could do is to himself. He certainly deserved to hear what Lupin had to say to him, but I just don't think his actions here are malicious or dangerous. There are times when Draco does get away with doing what is wrong. In GoF in the famous "I see no difference" scene, Hermione suffers and both Ron and Harry are given detentions, but I don't recall any discipline for Draco, who raised his wand right when Harry was doing the same. In the end, if people never broke the law or spoke out against unfair/immoral rules, some terrible things would still exist. I'd like to think that is one of JKR's messages. --jenny from ravenclaw ******************** From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Thu May 8 21:21:20 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 21:21:20 -0000 Subject: Quidditch reserves (again!) (Was Re: Harry's importance and threats of expulsion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: >> bboy_mn:(SNIP) > Flint simply convinced the administration to reschedule the match to > accomodate Draco's injured arm. That seems like a resonable concession > at the beginning of the Quidditch season.- > However, the game during which Harry was injured was at the end of the season and there was no opportunity to reschedule or postpone. Wood was forced to field his team and play the game, or forfeit. Wood would never go down without a fight, so he played the team he had. (MOre snipping) I had wondered about why the game was played with a player short as well. Am grateful to have that bit of strategy explained. Is this a case of something a British reader would have totally understood and that a dopey American used to 2nd, 3rd and sometimes 4th string players wouldn't have caught on to? Can any of our esteemed British colleagues comment? JenD From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Thu May 8 19:21:50 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:21:50 -0000 Subject: OotP not to be in paperback??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57375 Diane wrote: > I was in a Border's Bookstore today and was told by the clerk that > books 5-7 will never be issued in paperback, and that the seventh > book will be issued only as part of a boxed set. I find all that > very hard to believe, but wondered what anyone else has heard? > > ~Diane (who never buys hardbacks and is VERY upset) Alice writes: Diane, I agree with the others that it would make no economic sense not to release a paperback (and ESPECIALLY to only issue the 7th in a box set). But it does actually make sense to make people BELIEVE that there won't be a paperback edition. The clerk's drumming up business for his own bookstore. Bloomsbury are far too big to make such an obvious economical mistake. Of course, the delay might be great - are you going to borrow someone else's until then? Alice ---doing an IO course, and pretty enthusiastic, apart from the Corporate Finance (ugh) From anne_conda at web.de Thu May 8 20:58:42 2003 From: anne_conda at web.de (Anne) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:58:42 -0000 Subject: slytherin`s school-HOGWARTS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57376 (a last judgmental glance to the reflection, not without some essential fine-tuning of her hairstyle ? "delioning"-, finally trying at something what is meant to be a dashing smile ? what actually succeeds, is the dashing, sadly enough- aaaaaand) *delurking* (entr?e the cosiest waiting room ever) *mindmetakingthisseat?thanks!* Most likely I'm dreadfully off- track/ off- canon / off- everything just by verbalizing following lines: Do I recall accurately, that Salazar Slytherin originated his own wizard- school, after he and the other 3 founders of Hogwarts diverged too harshly from each other's views? Please, bear with me if I'm inaccurate and do the same if I'm not: a- Where was that school? b- Who attended it? c- Was it comparable to those Hitler- Jugend- ( Hitler Youth) schools only for errr Death Eaters? d- Does it still exist? (I know Rowling said NO regarding other wizard schools, still !) You see, I'm a bloody theorist, so- before anyone gets hurt- I better lurk for your precious ideas or a sudden enlightenment (it seems that latter is promissing to be a looong wait- no fig- tree here, maybe my orange- tree does the same job, though) .annie who is in immense need for volume 5 and mint- ice and whose English enjoys its time without her under palms (lucky it is!) ever since she's freed of a *very* severe English- teacher (she cracked *hazelnuts* with her *teeth*, and I'm quite sure she swallowed the chewed shell as well! She was weird, but- I have to acknowledge- perfectly so) and good marks for the use of *proper* grammar for that matter- sorry, sorry and un bol of sorrys for my sorry little English. ^ ~ ^ Besides: any ideas what the 4 founders had in mind, when they named their school "Hogwarts"? It sounds so so dumbledory. "Anne" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~? ~peRhapS strange~**thE WorLd iS fuLL oF gOOd trains**ThE passENGerS aRe coWs**AnD miLk aND butter.**anD ChEEse anD lovElY maRmeLAde**aNd bUllS aND hORSes,**aND coCKs And hEnS.**ThE CoW iS moTHeR tO tHe mILk,**AnD gRanDmA bOtH tO CheeSe aNd buTTer.**tHe chEEse iS cOUsIN tO thE MarMElADe.**tHE HORse iS couSin tO THe coCK**thE hEn lAYs eGGs.**ThE eGG iS couSIN tO ThE cheESe anD bUttEr,**thE sON aNd DAUGhter oF tHE mILk.**ISN't iT STRangE?**iT iS. (kurt schwitters, 1942) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~! From hp at plum.cream.org Thu May 8 21:20:45 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 22:20:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508144631.00e906f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <20030508015543.98638.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030508190031.0097d4a0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57377 Not a follow-up to a specific post, because I want to go off in a slightly different direction... I've spent most of today reading the last three days'-worth of posts in one go, so although I don't recall who said what (I have rather foolishly deleted all the messages), I have a vague idea of what has been said thus far. First of all I'd like to make a comment which has relevance not only to this topic but to discussions in general. I've been more than a little disconcerted by several people using a slightly underhand debating trick, and I'd respectfully ask people to be a bit more careful about keeping this in mind when in the cut-and-thrust of debate. What I'm talking about in this instance is raising the issue of (to paraphrase) "the superior morality of not following unjust rules". I don't think anyone in their right mind would dispute that maxim, and I really do wonder what it has to do with the topic at hand. The fact is, that issue is completely irrelevant to every instance of Harry's behaviour which has been debated. Thus far in the books, the only instance of an unjust (or rather, dubious) rule or regulation was Crouch's "shoot first, ask questions later" order during Voldemort's first rising (although, it should be said, most of the rules the Dursleys lay down for Harry are unjust and unfair, and perhaps it's interesting that Harry obeys them to a far greater degree than he does the Hogwarts rules). The issue of "superior morality" has been repeatedly used as an argument in Harry's favour in this debate, but as I said above, it bears no relevance, because the rules we're talking about him breaking or bending are school rules which are there (inter alia) for *his* protection. To use that argument is, IMO, a cheap method of sidelining the original point without actually addressing it. (Without getting personal, there are at least a couple of people here who regularly engage in that kind of ploy, and I'm sure it's entirely unconscious, so as I said, I'm simply asking people to be more careful about the way they phrase their point of view.) Sorry about the digression. As it happens, though, the issue of "superior morality" is part of the point I want to make, so I shall return to it a little later. My point of departure is an observation Troels and Darrin (?) made earlier today, that Harry appears to break rules far more frequently than Malfoy does, yet we like Harry but dislike Malfoy. I'd like to phrase that another way: Harry behaves honourably (even when breaking rules, by and large) whilst Malfoy acts dishonourably, even if it might, technically, be within the school rules. Or, to use sporting language (after all, Quidditch is a large metaphor in the books for the battles raging off the pitch), Malfoy (and the other Slytherins we've met) is prepared to participate in "unsportsmanlike behaviour", whilst Harry (and the Gryffindors) is not. The moral is not necessarily in whether or not *Harry* is punished, but whether or not Malfoy learns anything. Taking one of the scenes which has been one of the backbones of this discussion and which is usually the primary sequence quoted by moralists who decry JKR's skewed view of morality: the Remembrall scene during the first flying lesson. The usual way people look at the morality of this scene is that "Harry is ultimately rewarded for breaking the rules and therefore JKR is setting a bad example." Hang on, though... Those are not the end and beginning points of this sequence! That is not the way I've ever seen the morality of the scene, and I'm not just post-rationalising here - this is the way I've read the sequence since the very first time: The beginning point is Malfoy stealing the Remembrall and slagging off Neville (in his absence, it should be noted; i.e. dishonourable behaviour). Harry, honourably, stands up for his absent classmate. Malfoy then taunts Harry and sets him a challenge. Harry (moved by boyish pride rather than honour, it must be admitted) rises to the challenge. Regrettably, McGonagall sees him breaking an an-hoc rule (of which it is perfectly possible McGonagall was unaware!) whilst she does *not* appear to witness Malfoy's breaking of the same rule. Harry is led off, while Malfoy and his cronies snigger at Harry's bad fortune. That evening, when he sees that Harry hasn't been expelled, Malfoy challenges Harry to a duel. He has no intention of participating in the duel but somehow gets word to Mr Fitch (Filtch *knows* that there are at least two pupils in the trophy room - his presence wasn't an accident). Doubly (if not triply) dishonourable: duels are by definition combats of *honour* which Malfoy has no intention of seeing through; he wants to get Harry expelled so he tells someone in authority; he himself stays well away, of course. Harry, despite having ZERO duelling experience, accepts the challenge, and as a matter of honour, shows up. He escapes thanks to Hermione's quick thinking. Later on, when Harry gets his broom, he tells Flitwick *in Malfoy's presence* that he has Malfoy to thank for his place on the team and his new broom (which is ultimately true). We should, of course, remember that during their first encounter, Malfoy said he hoped to smuggle a broom into Hogwarts and attempt to bribe himself a place on his house team. Now he's added attempting to get Harry expelled. Malfoy got none of these things, but is responsible for Harry having his place on the team and a state-of-the-art broom. He engineered a situation where honourable (re)action ultimately won the day. What's the moral of the sequence now? "You won't get what you want by not playing fair." Has Malfoy learned it? Nope. Certainly not by the end of the fourth book, at least... As I see it, generally speaking (certainly in PS/SS), when Harry bends school rules for honourable purposes, he is not found out or punished. He is, however, both caught and punished otherwise. I am absolutely in the camp which holds that helping Hagrid dispose of Norbert was dishonourable, and it was fair and right that he was caught and punished (though, typically, the full extent of what he had done was unknown). By that stage, he knew that Dumbledore trusted Hagrid (and vice versa) and he knew that Norbert was dangerous. What he *should* have done was to try to have a quiet word with Dumbledore and say, perhaps in vague terms, that he knew a dragon was in the Hogwarts grounds and ask what he should do. He should NOT have presumed to know what was best and take it upon himself to rescue him. Also, it was utterly irresponsible of Charlie Weasley and his (adult) friends to assist. The whole thing could have been done officially with Dumbledore's assistance. The moral of the sequence is that rescuing Norbert was Right (TM) whilst doing it in secret and in the dead of night was Wrong (TM). Totally incidentally, I have a suspicion that Hagrid told Dumbledore the details about Norbert, and it was with the knowledge that the Trio lost 150 points that night that Dumbledore engineered the infamous 160 points - and added 10 points for saving Norbert (Dumbledore has a thing about dragons: he *did* discover the 12 uses for their blood!) - at the End of Year Feast which has been the subject of another thread. School rules are in place not to oppress teenagers, but to keep them in check, and to keep them *safe*. Such rules are usually reasonable, justified and just. From what we've seen of Hogwarts' rules, that certainly applies. It is *NOT* up to individual pupils to determine - whatever their motives! - whether or not to follow those rules. Most real-world judicial systems treat most juveniles more leniently because it is recognised that they don't have the skills, experience or judgment to appreciate the full consequences of their actions. That is why adults responsible for teenagers constrain them in other ways. It's a truism that teenagers don't usually appreciate it, but eventually realise that it's for their own benefit. Harry appears to be one of the rare teenagers who *does* appreciate that his judgment can be faulty, and thus tries to establish facts before acting on his suspicions. In PS/SS he tries to tell Dumbledore, and in his absence, McGonagall, of his suspicions. He is dismissed and is thus obliged as a matter of honour to pursue his path alone (but Ron & Hermione tag along, thankfully). In CoS, his instinct is to pass his information on to Lockhart, but then realises (once it's too late) that Lockhart's judgment is even more impaired than his own might be. In PoA, the Trio try to save Buckbeak by legal means (i.e. honourably), and are resigned to accept his death until Dumbledore (of all people!) all but orders them to break not only school rules, but a very important law of the magical community. Harry and Hermione do not depend on their judgment of what is right and wrong. Without Dumbledore's say-so, they'd never have come up with the plan to save Buckbeak from the unjust application of an otherwise just (AFAWK) law. (Note: this situation was, again, dishonourably engineered by Malfoy and honourably resolved by Harry - it's not coincidental that the creature in question needed to be shown *respect* in order to become co-operative). Pettigrew behaved "dishonourably" by refusing to be prepared to sacrifice himself for the greater good; Harry behaved honourably be saving him. PoA also includes the most blatant example of Harry breaking school rules and WW regulations (which were put in place specifically and deliberately to protect HIM!) for *purely* dishonourable/personal reasons, when he visits Hogsmeade (as others have pointed out, he originally is prepared to be honourable and accept that he cannot go, but it is the Twins, and others, who persuade him to break those rules). Not coincidentally, it is Lupin's reaction, not Snape's, which makes him feel small. Dumbledore had admonished Harry to use the Invisibility Cloak "wiseley" (i.e. honourably) - Lupin makes a point about Harry's prank dishonouring his father's memory (the Cloak is the only physical legacy Harry has from his father). GoF is *all* about honour and acting honourably. On the face of it, Harry breaks the Tournament rules by telling Cedric about the first task, but it's only to even the odds because others have acted dishonourably. Harry's participation in the tournament was one whole dishonourable plot. Cedric's eulogy underlines his *loyalty* and *fair play*. Crouch Jr. is the very essence of disloyalty and dishonour, as is the graveyard gathering. So, what happens next? As someone else asked, how is Harry to react in the face of "Fudge's laws"? It is generally accepted that Dumbledore and Hogwarts (including Harry) will be set against Fudge's appeasement policies. Is it right for Harry to fight such policies? Of course. But is Harry aware of all the implications and repercussions of his actions? No. In any case, Harry's main priority is to continue his education and get the best OWLs he can at the end of the year. Politics outside Hogwarts are not directly his concern, but of course, being The Famous Harry Potter, he will be dragged into them against his will. Will he do what's right? You betcha! Will he choose what's right over what's easy? Of course! However, as in PoA or (to a lesser degree) GoF, he will be taking Dumbledore's lead, and do his utmost not to enter situations blindly or to act on his suspicions without attempting to satisfy himself that they are justified. -- GulPlum AKA RIchard, who's been writing the above for over four hours and doesn't have the strength to re-read it but hopes it makes sense anyway... From t.forch at mail.dk Thu May 8 22:11:04 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:11:04 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030508190031.0097d4a0@plum.cream.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508144631.00e906f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> <20030508015543.98638.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030509000229.00efb770@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 57378 At 22:20 08-05-03 +0100, GulPlum wrote: > Not a follow-up to a specific post, because I want to go off in a slightly > different direction... I've spent most of today reading the last three > days'-worth of posts in one go, so although I don't recall who said what (I > have rather foolishly deleted all the messages), I have a vague idea of > what has been said thus far. I have tried very hard to find something to disagree with - this is what I came up with: > Fudge's appeasement policies. My understanding is that an appeasement policy - especially in times of peace - consists of buying the continued peace by giving the potential aggressor what he (or she) wants. As Fudge's policy (apparently at leasts) consists of denying the existence of the aggressor, is is policy then really one of appeasement? (OK - so it's a petty nitpick, but I couldn't find anything else ;-) Very well put, Richard, thanks. Troels From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Thu May 8 22:09:54 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 00:09:54 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins References: Message-ID: <001101c315ae$8efec560$ad07243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57379 Rosebeth wrote: This is a very interesting theory. I personally disagree with it. First we know, from PA, that people who time travel can kill there past or future selves. I'm at work without the books so I can't site chapter. So, if you can kill yourself you should be able to kill your father. Additionally. If we assume that everything you said in your post is true, then it raises some rather large questions. Who took Riddle back to the past and why? And why would Harry and Ginny allow this? We know that Harry has spent his whole life wanting a family of his own, who will treat him diffently then his aunt and uncle. PS/SS the opening chapters where he discribes dreams of a distant relation coming and taking him away and of course, the mirror. Why would Harry allow his own son to be taken away from him? If you assume that Harry is dead when this decision is made then why take Tom back in time and not allow the Weasley's (Tom's biologoical family) to raise him in the present? Unless, Harry isn't dead, but rather Tom is kidnapped. But then this brings me back to my first question. Who would take him and why? Me (Izaskun): Better still, why don't they LV kill Harry???? It would be the perfect way to get rid of LV himself. He kills his father when he's a toddler, he never gets to be born, he simple vanishes. No more LV. THis theory is, with all due respect, not only unlikely but also a sort of crossover between Terminator and Star Wars, instead of "Luke, I'm your father" it would be "Harry I'm your son, I've come from the future to kill you. Was your mother's name Sarah?" Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 8 22:39:43 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 22:39:43 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030508190031.0097d4a0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57380 > -- > GulPlum AKA RIchard, who's been writing the above for over four hours and > doesn't have the strength to re-read it but hopes it makes sense anyway... It makes perfect sense. Excellent job. I'd just like to add a couple of things. The three cases where Harry and/or other members of the Trio are punished for actions that can be regarded as dishonorable are helping Norbert escape, using the flying car, and Harry sneaking off to Hogsmeade. In all the cases, Harry has a chance to take the honorable path, and even tries to, but then allows himself to stray to the dishonorable path. In the case of Norbert, the Trio tried to convince Hagrid that having Norbert was a bad idea, probably hoping he'd see the light. Only after Ron suggests Charlie do Harry and Hermione agree to the late-night dragon breakout. Want some symbolism? Harry FORGETS the Invisibility Cloak, which, as you said, is his legacy from James. Does he forget the inherent goodness James has left him? Dumbledore, who has not forgotten the legacy, retrieves the cloak and send it back to him. In the case of the flying car, Harry's first instinct is to wait by the car for the Weasleys. Again, it is Ron who suggests flying the car. The cloak isn't used, but the Invisibility Booster is another tie-in to this idea. (Don't get me wrong. I don't think Ron is to blame. Harry can think for himself and should be blamed as well.) Interestingly, though, Ron and Harry find their honor, asking McGonagall not to punish Gryffindor as a whole for their stupidity. She smiles -- recognizing their placing the good of the whole above their own good -- and grants their wish. In the Hogsmeade incidents, Harry tries to go to Fudge and McGonagall to get special permission (the honorable way) and is told no. He decides to use the cloak, gets away with it once, and then decides to go again. But who do Harry and Ron defy this time, besides the adults? Hermione. Worried for Harry's safety, she would have gone to the authorities. They would have gotten away with it, had Harry, on his own, not compounded it -- maybe pressed his luck -- with another dishonorable act, and thrown mudballs at Draco and the gang. And again, Harry has to leave the cloak behind in the process. He'd used it to sneak away and to sneak attack Draco. "Wrong" uses Hermione, the friend who was wronged here because they went behind her back, retrieved the cloak, restoring Harry's gift from his father. Just as an aside, there is no dishonor in Harry using the cloak in GoF to go to Hogsmeade. He had permission to go, but did not want to face a bunch of people. No honor lost in wanting a break from people staring at you. It's akin to a celebrity wearing a disguise to go out. Darrin -- Wants to be GulPlum when I grow up From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu May 8 21:00:11 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 21:00:11 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508201216.00ed4380@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > As far as I am concerned there is no way of formulating an > ethical principle that allows Harry to do something and > doesn't allow Draco to do the exact same thing. The only > way to distinguish is to point out that Harry (usually) do > things we agree with, while Draco normally do things we > don't agree with, but if we raise that to an ethical > principle, we automatically raise ourselves (as > individuals) to be the final arbiters of right and wrong - > something I would feel very uncomfortable with, and > something I cannot see any moral justification for. I think I have to agree in part and disagree in part. I agree that Harry's (or Draco's) raising himself to be the final arbiter of what is right would be (is?) a problem. But I can imagine principles -- using the term a little loosely -- that would effectively distinguish between Harry and Draco by virtue of their different circumstances. Here's one possibility, though I don't happen to agree with it: it is ethical to kill someone who has, say, killed your parents. If we accept this as an ethical principle (and maybe it's too narrow to fit the definition of a principle), then we could construe Harry's killing Voldemort as ethical but Draco's killing Voldemort as not. Ersatz Harry From lissbell at colfax.com Thu May 8 21:14:56 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:14:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins References: Message-ID: <3EBAC8D0.D38E2353@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57382 > Rosebeth wrote: > First we know, from PA, that people who time travel can kill there > past or future selves. I'm at work without the books so I can't site > chapter. So, if you can kill yourself you should be able to kill > your father. Lissa replied: Honestly, I think there's a chance Voldemort would have succeeded in killing himself--and Harry--if Voldemort had not been under the magical influence of so many immortality-granting spells & potions. I suspect these were powerful enough to protect Voldemort just enough to spare Harry and to keep the Dark Lord himself in existence in a sort of limbo. At the same time, I'm not sure--please correct me if I'm wrong--it is canonically possible in Rowling's Potterverse to kill your father during time travel. Hermione notes that you can kill your past or future self, but she doesn't say you can kill your parents. That's one of those classic time-traveling paradoxes. Different authors, no doubt, would take different stances on it. If I'm missing a passage or ignoring something JKR said, please let me know. I'm genuinely interested in this. Rosebeth wrote: > Additionally. If we assume that everything you said in your post is > true, then it raises some rather large questions. Who took Riddle > back to the past and why? And why would Harry and Ginny allow this? Lissa replied: I really have to apologize for not fully explaining my theory, but I was trying to keep my post short. I don't believe anyone took Riddle back to 1927. I think Ginny, for whatever reason, goes back to 1926 already pregnant with Harry's child and gives birth to him there. Whether she's turned a bit evil and knows what she's doing or whether she's suffering from memory-alteration, I have no idea. In any case, I believe she either genuinely falls in love with Riddle Sr and marries him or dupes him into marrying her. Then she dies giving birth to Tom Marvolo Riddle. Rosebeth wrote: > We know that Harry has spent his whole life wanting a family of his > own, who will treat him diffently then his aunt and uncle. PS/SS the > opening chapters where he discribes dreams of a distant relation > coming and taking him away and of course, the mirror. Lissa replied: If my theory ends up true, I think it will be one of the hardest tests Harry will face. Yes he does yearn for family. I really don't think he will be able to kill his own son. I think it will be up to someone else to step in and do the job. Rosebeth wrote: > Why would > Harry allow his own son to be taken away from him? If you assume > that Harry is dead when this decision is made then why take Tom back > in time and not allow the Weasley's (Tom's biologoical family) to > raise him in the present? Unless, Harry isn't dead, but rather Tom is > kidnapped. But then this brings me back to my first question. Who > would take him and why? Lissa replied: I don't think Harry would allow someone to take away his son if he knew one existed. I don't think Harry would necessarily know if Ginny had just recently become pregnant and then was swept into the past. Even if he did know she was pregnant, if she simply disappeared he might assume she'd been killed by one of his enemies. Giving Ginny the benefit of the doubt in a best-case-scenario, I think she headed back to the past to help Harry somehow--perhaps even hoping to kill the young Tom Marvolo Riddle before he could cause such heartache and destruction--but her memories were altered. In a darker scenario, Ginny could deliberately have taken on a role in Voldemort's agenda and knows the part she must play. I have no evidence to point toward Ginny's state of mind. Well... no, I'll take that back. I am intrigued by "Marvolo". I think it's significant somehow, but all my attempts to unravel its meaning have lead nowhere reasonable. I wish I knew. Then again, I may be way off base with all this speculation anyway. Cheers, Lissa From lissbell at colfax.com Thu May 8 21:37:54 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:37:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle's Origins and Where Voldemort did his Killing References: Message-ID: <3EBACE32.6A8C66F9@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57383 > Lissa wrote: > > I believe Harry Potter and Ginny Weasley may be Tom Riddle's > > biological parents. Phyllis wrote: > Dumbledore to Harry (Ch. 18 Of CoS): "...Lord Voldemort who is the > last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin " > > If Harry and Ginny were Voldemort's parents, one or the other would > have to also be a descendant of Slytherin, and Dumbledore wouldn't > have been able to make this statement. Lissa replied: I don't think this is a contradiction. Dumbledore doesn't say "only" remaining ancestor of Slytherin, he very carefully uses the word "last". (In my theory, Tom Marvolo Riddle would be the last of Harry's family line.) Dumbledore is clever and knows Harry will interpret his comment as the equivalent of "only"--especially given that Voldemort is physically older than Harry. It's a clever way to misdirect without outright lying. I do think, though, that there might be something up with Dumbledore's use of the word ancestor rather than descendant in that passage. (Please see Valky's post on that if you're interested.) Phyllis wrote: > Ch. 1 Of PoA: "Uncle Vernon, Aunt Petunia and their son, Dudley, > were Harry's only living relatives." > > Voldemort didn't make this list of Harry's "only living relatives." Lissa replied: Well, yes. (sheepish smile) Ignoring the fact that Voldemort would not be the best choice of guardians for Harry, he was, it seems to me, in a bodyless state of limbo between life and death at that point. In my opinion he shouldn't make that list. Then again, some might argue that he is fully alive even without bodily form, so you could call this an inconsistency in my theory. Point well taken, Phyllis. ~Lissa From petalla at express56.com Thu May 8 22:01:38 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 22:01:38 -0000 Subject: James Potter Dead???? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57384 According to Galadrial Waters (Wizarding World Press' Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter: Analysis of Books 1-4) (yes, I've heard many complaints about this book, but...), she belives the real Lupin is dead. James and he took an extra precausion because and performed a switching spell. If this is true, James is Lupin still! If this idea is true, then much could be explained: 1) Lupin's "sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it". 2)why Lupin acted the way he did when Harry told him that he heard his father's voice. 3)how Dumbledore got Jame's invisibility Cloak, and Hagrid got the key to Harry's vault. (SS-PS) 4) Why did Lupin say " now that we could all transform..." Why did he not say "that they could transform"? (Ok this one is a shakey stretch...don't werewolves transform?---but maybe!) 5) Remember your mythology? Remus was the legendary wolf child who was murdered by his brother Romulus? hmmmm. Thoughts???? ~~~~~~~~Peggy From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu May 8 23:01:56 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 23:01:56 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57385 Replies to both Darrin and Oryomai in this post. Darrin wrote: Show me a case where a Slyth has done something decent and I don't count standing for Cedric. Oryomai wrote: If you were a Slytherin and you saw the Headmaster openly supporting Gryffindor over you, what would you do? I might just be a bad person, but I would say "Screw it. I'm gonna do exactly what they think I will. There's no way to change their point of view." I (Tom) reply: IMHO, you're both talking about the same thing from different angles, here. Let's try a slightly different tack ? when have we seen anyone in *any* of the other houses do anything decent, aside from Cedric's clear decency and fair-play over the Triwizard Tournament in GoF? I don't think that we have, actually, unless you consider Ernie Macmillan apologizing for accusing Harry in CoS, which I don't. So, maybe a hand's worth of instances (twice Cedric) we've seen people from other houses act with `decency.' On that note, I'm having trouble understanding exactly what Darrin meant by `decent,' but I'm going to go with a broad definition ? I' ll consider selfless, friendly, courteous, and upstanding behavior as `decent.' Sorry - didn't bother to look it up. So, I'm not going to count Harry's school saving adventures, because IMHO they're cheap instances of `decency,' and surely we can find something better than that. Frankly, I don't really think we've even seen the Trio behave `decently,' a majority of the time, in that they aren't particularly helpful to others (well, Hermione does help Neville out in Potions,) and they aren't particularly friendly or selfless with others outside of Gryffindor, even though Harry gets along with the Hufflepuffs most of the time. Granted, this isn't a rule, but it's generally how they behave. They're nice kids, but they can be just as rude and mean as the Slytherins we see in canon. We've also seen people from Slytherin, Hufflepuff, and Gryffindor act childishly and be unfriendly towards each other, as well. I don't recall seeing a Ravenclaw behave this way, but since they get so little screen time, I'm not surprised at that. Even the usually gregarious twins won't acknowledge Cedric when they're about to take the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup, and over a defeat in Quidditch from the prior year? Please. What Darrin's really asking here is, when has *Harry* seen a Slyth do anything decent? So, it can only be fairly asked: does that really count? Since Harry doesn't hang out with the Slytherins, and since he doesn't like them, either, we can't possibly expect him to be looking for or even noticing any hints of possible Slytherin virtue. In fact, what seems to be the case is that Harry is more likely to see mildly virtuous behavior and then assume that there something sinister about it. He does this with Snape and Slytherin house constantly. What we do see, from time to time, is that the Slytherins do appear to care about each other, and this is what Oryomai, I think, is closer to with her post ? the Slytherins don't get a chance to show their, ahem, softer side in front of the whole school, because most of the school doesn't like them. We know this from book one, because the whole school is hoping for the seven-year-House-Champions to lose. The Slytherins aren't given a chance, not by the other students, the readership, or really, the author herself. So let's use a few examples with Pansy, one of the few Slytherins we see showing any emotion ever in the series: a) in PoA, right after the Care of Magical Creatures class: "They should fire him right away," said Pansy Parkinson, who was in tears." PoA Ch.6. She's in tears over Draco's injury. This does not say `lacking in decency.' b) and right after that: "I'm going to see if he's okay!" said Pansy, and they all watched her run up the marble staircase." Again, she's running. If she was lacking in decency, we might see her casually stroll, or worse, Draco's Slytherin peers wouldn't care *at all.* This is not the case. c) the simpering in Potions class that I already brought up. Later at dinner, we actually see "A large group including Crabbe and Goyle was huddled together, deep in conversation." (PoA, Ch.6, 119) This is neat, because we see that there is care for Draco even beyond Pansy and the two goons, there's care enough to spread through a `large group.' Of course, Harry suspects them of `cooking up their own version' of events, which is just early-teenagerese for `we can do it but no one else can.' Let's be candid here: the trio is constantly cooking up their own version of events. If you're looking for `decent' behavior, I'd submit that it's not all that fair to demand it of just the Slytherins ? let's demand it of everyone equally and across the board. What we can see from the little bit of Slytherin interaction that we do get, is that they're a tightly knit group, and in my judgment, tightly knit groups behave decently with each other most of the time. So, it's an inference, but I think it's a fair one. Darrin wrote: And when have I ever said I won't give Slytherin a chance? I have repeatedly said that canon SO FAR has not given us a decent Slytherin. I refuse to call them something other than nasty little brats, based on the facts so far. Tom: Agreed ? they do appear to be nasty little brats, and from an outsider's perspective (as in, not the Trio, not Gryffindor, and not the readership or the author) so could HHR be perceived that way. Let's not get into the number of times Ron has been rude and insulting to others for no obvious reason. The Hufflepuffs appear that was in CoS. And every house takes it out on Harry in GoF. So, what are we talking about here? Kids. And kids are cruel. And I' d bet that most of the school is composed of nasty little brats ? we just happen to like some of the brats more than others. ;-) -Tom From cgbrennan at aol.com Thu May 8 20:11:50 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:11:50 -0000 Subject: Imperius Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57386 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > wrote: > > > << > Imperius Curse "four times in a row" until he can throw it off > > completely, after having almost thrown it off the first time > > Moody/Crouch cursed him with it. (p. 231, american) > > > > Later, when Voldemort uses it against Harry, JK writes that "And > > Harry felt, the third time in his life, the sensation that his > > mind had been wiped of all thought..." (p.661) > > > > Third time? There is no mention of a time between the first day > > in class and then with Voldemort that Harry is cursed, and since > > it was done more than twice on the first day, it can't be the > > third since then. It sounds like JK is saying that the time in > > class was Harry's second time...so when was the first? >>> > > Ali : > > > I believe that the first time that Harry's mind had been wiped of > > all thought, was not the imperius curse at all, but was when he > > saw the Veela: > > > > "The Veela started to dance, and Harry's mind had gone completely > > and blissfully blank" (p94 GoF, UK edition). Barb: > I really doubt Harry was thinking of the veela when he was in the > graveyard. We have ample evidence that neither JKR nor her editors > (maybe her books SHOULD be seen by more people before publication, > especially a professor of mathematics, so these errors will stop!) > can keep numbers straight. It looks to me like a genuine Flint. > Pat yourself on the back! >>>>>>> Wow! Thanks Barb! However, I must display my ignorance-I'm assuming a "Flint" is a mistake-does it stand for something? By the way, thanks for your response! "cgbrennan" ************ Mod Note, for anyone who's also wondering what a "Flint" is, a short description in the Files section here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/ entitled *FLINT.html --Kelley, for the List Administration Team From lissbell at colfax.com Thu May 8 23:23:10 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:23:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins References: <001101c315ae$8efec560$ad07243e@takun> Message-ID: <3EBAE6DE.EDAD941E@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57387 (snipped Lissa's theory about Harry and Ginny being Voldemort's parents and Rosebeth's responses) Izaskun wrote: > Better still, why don't they LV kill Harry???? It would be the perfect way to get rid of LV himself. He kills his father when he's a toddler, he never gets to be born, he simple vanishes. No more LV. Lissa replied: Hi Izaskun. If I understand you correctly, you're wondering why Voldemort would want to kill Harry since it would, effectively, destroy him? In my opinion, Voldemort really believes, mistakenly, that Tom Riddle Sr. the muggle was his father. It would, obviously, be suicidal and ridiculous to try to kill your own father before he has a chance to create you. Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that someone offered Voldemort a prophecy along these lines: 'the only wizards who will have authority over you are James Potter and his son'. This made him believe he would have to kill James and Harry in order to retain his power. I'm probably really wrong here, though. This is pure conjecture. If, however, I misunderstood you--sorry, if I did--and you're actually wondering why Dumbledore or someone else who knows the truth doesn't simply kill Harry before he can have kids, well, I can't answer that. It's one of those impossible ethical dilemmas. I can't personally see Dumbledore making that kind of brutal choice, but I do agree some would do it. Izaskun wrote: > This theory is, with all due respect, not only unlikely but also a sort of crossover between Terminator and Star Wars, instead of "Luke, I'm your father" it would be "Harry I'm your son, I've come from the future to kill you. Was your mother's name Sarah?" Lissa replied: Oh, Izaskun, I so agree with you! (laughs and nods) This plot theory is terribly reminiscent of the big twist in Star Wars. (I hadn't though of Terminator, but you're right there as well.) This is actually my own biggest argument against my little hypothesis. With the memory of Vader's surprise-papa announcement to Luke so fresh in our cultural memory, how could JKR choose a similar plot twist? Well, I've rationalized it like this: there are a finite number of possible plots in the world of literature. There's not a story outline in existence that you couldn't say was derived from a prior work in some fashion. It's expected that authors will take inspiration from other artists' works and add their own fresh spin to those ideas. And really, Vader's announcement to Luke was delivered 23 years ago. By the time the final HP novel arrives, nearly three decades will have passed. Given all this, I think it's probably okay for Rowling to put her own personal stamp on this plot point. But I may be entirely insane. :) Cheers, Lissa From hp at plum.cream.org Thu May 8 23:45:27 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:45:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James Potter Dead???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030509004109.0097dae0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57388 At 23:01 08/05/03 , peggybaratto wrote: >Thoughts???? You could see the discussion that's been going on for the last three days on *just* this topic, starting with message #56911. You may then have further thoughts of your own. I suspect most people who have an opinion have already said all they have to say on the subject, either over the last few days or the previous times this theory was discussed. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who thinks the theory stinks, for the record :-) From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Thu May 8 23:49:54 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 01:49:54 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins References: <001101c315ae$8efec560$ad07243e@takun> <3EBAE6DE.EDAD941E@colfax.com> Message-ID: <003001c315bc$878681c0$ad07243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57389 Izaskun wrote: > Better still, why don't they LV kill Harry???? It would be the perfect way to get rid of LV himself. He kills his father when he's a toddler, he never gets to be born, he simple vanishes. No more LV. Lissa replied: If, however, I misunderstood you--sorry, if I did--and you're actually wondering why Dumbledore or someone else who knows the truth doesn't simply kill Harry before he can have kids, well, I can't answer that. It's one of those impossible ethical dilemmas. I can't personally see Dumbledore making that kind of brutal choice, but I do agree some would do it. Me (Izaskun replies back); I was talking about Dumbledore, just kidding because I know DD would never let LV kill Harry, no matter what. Izaskun wrote: > This theory is, with all due respect, not only unlikely but also a sort of crossover between Terminator and Star Wars, instead of "Luke, I'm your father" it would be "Harry I'm your son, I've come from the future to kill you. Was your mother's name Sarah?" Lissa replied: Oh, Izaskun, I so agree with you! (laughs and nods) This plot theory is terribly reminiscent of the big twist in Star Wars. (I hadn't though of Terminator, but you're right there as well.) This is actually my own biggest argument against my little hypothesis. With the memory of Vader's surprise-papa announcement to Luke so fresh in our cultural memory, how could JKR choose a similar plot twist? Well, I've rationalized it like this: there are a finite number of possible plots in the world of literature. There's not a story outline in existence that you couldn't say was derived from a prior work in some fashion. It's expected that authors will take inspiration from other artists' works and add their own fresh spin to those ideas. Me (Izaskun again): yeah, well, as writer myself, I agree with you of course, we take inspiration from others, and sometimes we don't even realise, that's true. But again, I think this would too twisted, If you know what I mean. Of course there are many things about the whole Harry Potter / LV story that we don't know and JK has surprised us before and will continue doing so, but still... I think is something simpler than that. I think it has to do with fate, with the greek version of fate and how trying to change it will only throw you in its path. LV tried to kill the Potters because of a prediction about his downfall by one of them. He killed James, but couldn't kill Harry. By trying to kill Harry he transfered to him some of his powers, making him an incredibly powerful wizard, and he himself loosing all his strength and therefore writing the first pages of his own death. That's what I think. But of course this is only my opinion, I may be wrong. I just like the simplicity of it, and how you can make up a whole world and story/legend out of such a simple beginning. Lissa also said: But I may be entirely insane. :) Me (Izaskun) :) Well, you know, we're all a little insane here, otherwise life would be too boring. And you should hear some of my theories about Harry Potter... Too wild to be written here. LOL CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Thu May 8 15:42:42 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:42:42 -0500 Subject: Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade Message-ID: <000001c315bd$99520f40$00570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 57390 Frankly, I can't see why Hogwarts students need parental/guardian permission to go to Hogsmeade. We're talking (as nearly as I can tell) about a fairly typical Scottish village that happens to be all-magical-folk, NOT Patpong Road, the Amsterdam red-light district, or the Reeperbahn. (Not that Hogwarts students would be interested in such goings-on...they're sweet, pure, chaste, virginal, demure, and disgusted by such things. At least, that's the Party line and I'm sticking to it.) For that matter, it was quite a jump for the MoM to _assume_ instantly that Sirius Black was after Harry Potter specifically. "He's at Hogwarts?" That could refer to _anybody_ who is currently "at Hogwarts" in any capacity. It would have been quite a joke on the MoM if Sirius Black _had_ been Ever-So-Evil, and had been after _Remus Lupin,_ and had gotten in a good shot at him while everybody was hovering over poor little Harry Potter. Somehow, in that sort of situation, I don't quite think "Oops!" will cover it. "Uh...gee, Professor Lupin, we're really, really sorry he got you. Shall I go get Madam Pomfrey? Oo-er, I bet that smarts!" Come to it...if they thought that Sirius Black _was_ Voldemort's right-hand dude, why didn't it occur to anybody that what SB was talking about was his Lord? "He's at Hogwarts" could have meant that SB had figured out that _Voldemort_ was hidden in the school somehow, and had nothing to do with Harry Potter. The Big V had been there before, after all. I think that the MoM was jumping to conclusions, and that this is another example of Ministry corruption and ineptitude. Putting Dementors around Hogwarts, after the Dementors had slipped up already and let SB get loose somehow, is yet another example...I'd have used Aurors, who can tell the difference between a student and an escaped convict, and aren't too likely to try to suck anybody's soul out of them. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 9 00:08:55 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:08:55 EDT Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... Message-ID: <40.2ecdb152.2bec4b97@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57391 In a message dated 5/6/03 11:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > Funny, I didn't see an example of a good Slytherin deed in that. > > Just a justification that because the Headmaster actually decided > that bravery, honor, intelligence and self-sacrifice (Please, tell me > that Draco would have sacrificed himself on the chess board for > anyone -- I had a tooth pulled today and I need a laugh) was worth > something more than skulking about, using trickery to cost another > house points, it's OK to be nasty. Oh ... I see what you thought I meant. Okay, I didn't mean that there was a good Slytherin deed in that scene, I merely meant that the open endorsement of Gryffindor could have discouraged any good Slytherins from making themselves known. Even I know that there is no good Slytherin deed in the banquet at the end of PS. Dumbledore certainly could have given the points to HRH and Neville before the Great Hall was all decked out in Slyth colors. That's a *smidgen* cruel. To let the Slytherins think that they have won and then suddenly take it away - for ... well, I won't get into what I think about rule breaking - even if it brings the results that the Trio's rule breaking brings. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Tell someone you're the Metatron and they stare at you blankly. Mention something out of a Charlton Heston movie and suddenly everybody's a theology scholar!" - Metatron (Alan Rickman) in Dogma [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Fri May 9 00:11:25 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:11:25 -0000 Subject: Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade In-Reply-To: <000001c315bd$99520f40$00570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57392 >Eric wrote: >Dementors had slipped up already and let SB get loose >somehow, is yet another example...I'd have used Aurors, who can tell >the difference between a student and an escaped convict, and aren't >too likely to try to suck anybody's soul out of them. Valky says: Interesting you should note that. In the fourth book when we are introduced to our first Auror there is a lot of talk of Aurors having been killed or indelibly incapacitated by attacks before and since the fall of Voldemort. Although it is not actually stated that Moody is a last Auror or among the last, I am sure we are being given a hint that Aurors are a dwindling group. Moody!Crouch speaks of them a lot, but then he's been out of it for 10 or so years, he probably missed the lot. He is not, I daresay, a reliable source for the gauging of current events in the GOF WW. I do believe that at the time of POA the dementors were considered to be more powerful than the Aurors, by the MOM and so forth. This is why, IMO, they would, in their infinite capacity to look like complete boofs, put their faith in Dementors to take on Sirius Black. After all they feared not only for the sake of Harry but greatly for their own safety as well. Apparently they think an Auror is no match for Voldemorts kind? From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 9 00:18:25 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:18:25 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57393 > I (Tom) reply: > IMHO, you're both talking about the same thing from different > angles, here. > > Let's try a slightly different tack ? when have we seen anyone in > *any* of the other houses do anything decent, aside from Cedric's > clear decency and fair-play over the Triwizard Tournament in GoF? Cedric's attempt to replay the Quidditch match where Harry falls. Cedric's attempts to get his dad to stop bragging like a stupid git over the match. Cho letting Harry down easy. And why not count Ernie MacMillan's apology? It's more than any Slyth kid has ever done > > On that note, I'm having trouble understanding exactly what Darrin > meant by `decent,' but I'm going to go with a broad definition ? I' > ll consider selfless, friendly, courteous, and upstanding behavior as decent.' Sorry - didn't bother to look it up. > > So, I'm not going to count Harry's school saving adventures, because > IMHO they're cheap instances of `decency,' and surely we can find > something better than that. > > Frankly, I don't really think we've even seen the Trio behave > `decently,' a majority of the time, in that they aren't > particularly helpful to others (well, Hermione does help Neville out in Potions,) and they aren't particularly friendly or selfless with others outside of Gryffindor, even though Harry gets along with the Hufflepuffs most of the time. Harry helping out Dobby and Hagrid. Hermione protecting Lupin. Not just in Potions, but Hermione generally looking out for Neville. > Granted, this isn't a rule, but it's generally how they behave. > They're nice kids, but they can be just as rude and mean as the > Slytherins we see in canon. I think the Slyths outdo them. When has a member of the Trio openly called for genocide, for instance? Or how about beating up and stealing from a weaker kid? (Leg-Locker and Remembrall on Neville.) Or participate in a potentially fatal prank during a Quidditch match? Even the usually gregarious twins won't acknowledge Cedric when they're about to take the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup, and over a defeat in Quidditch from the prior year? Please. > pg 67: "Everbody said "Hi" back except Fred and George, who merely nodded. That is NOT lack of acknowledgement. Different from the rest, but not rude. And let us remember on the next page, Amos behaving like the worst Little League Dad in history. Yeah, that's impressive. Your son AND A BUNCH OF DEMENTORS beat Harry Potter. > What Darrin's really asking here is, when has *Harry* seen a Slyth > do anything decent? So, it can only be fairly asked: does that really count? Since Harry doesn't hang out with the Slytherins, and since he doesn't like them, either, we can't possibly expect him to be looking for or even noticing any hints of possible Slytherin virtue. I'm not going to argue the negative. If it's not in canon, it doesn't exist. Bottom line. All the off-screen stuff is fun to speculate about, but the facts remain, the Slyths, so far, are the villains of this epic. So, the imagined scenes about Slyths helping little old witches across the street will just have to stay imagined. > In fact, what seems to be the case is that Harry is more likely to > see mildly virtuous behavior and then assume that there something > sinister about it. He does this with Snape and Slytherin house > constantly. Mildly virtuous behavior??? I'd settle for that! When? > What we do see, from time to time, is that the Slytherins do appear > to care about each other, and this is what Oryomai, I think, is > closer to with her post ? the Slytherins don't get a chance to show > their, ahem, softer side in front of the whole school, because most > of the school doesn't like them. We know this from book one, because the whole school is hoping for the seven-year-House-Champions to lose. The Slytherins aren't given a chance, not by the other > students, the readership, or really, the author herself. And why doesn't most of the school like them? Because they bully their way through Quidditch, have a professor who constantly takes points away from the competition, and espouse a pureblood doctrine that automatically excludes a good-sized percentage of the other houses. > Later at dinner, we actually see "A large group including Crabbe and > Goyle was huddled together, deep in conversation." (PoA, Ch.6, 119) > > This is neat, because we see that there is care for Draco even beyond Pansy and the two goons, there's care enough to spread through a `large group.' Of course, Harry suspects them of `cooking up their > own version' of events, which is just early-teenagerese for `we can > do it but no one else can.' Let's be candid here: the trio is > constantly cooking up their own version of events. > Pansy does indeed show some concern for Draco, which could be interpreted as a decent act. Fair enough. Of course, then it all falls apart with the remainder of the "Draco is injured" drama. They DID cook up their own version of events. Draco, whose injuries were healed in a second, milked his injury for all it was worth, nearly getting Hagrid fired, an innocent animal executed, and of course, earning himself a couple of lab slaves in Harry and Ron. And of course, backed up and supported by all the Slyths, who knew that cuts could be healed very quickly. Draco's behavior in the class was akin to a kid who had just been told not to put his hand in the wood chipper doing it anyway, and then blaming the teacher because he didn't listen. > If you're looking for `decent' behavior, I'd submit that it's not > all that fair to demand it of just the Slytherins ? let's demand it > of everyone equally and across the board. I've gotten it from the Gryffs, thank you. And the Hufflepuffs so far seem to be all right. > What we can see from the little bit of Slytherin interaction that we do get, is that they're a tightly knit group, and in my judgment, > tightly knit groups behave decently with each other most of the time.So, it's an inference, but I think it's a fair one. The SS guards were tightly knit as well. So were the bands of bounty hunters that chased runaway slaves. So were the Japanese guards marching the soldiers at Bataan. Tightly-knit does not equal good. > > Darrin wrote: > And when have I ever said I won't give Slytherin a chance? I have > repeatedly said that canon SO FAR has not given us a decent > Slytherin. I refuse to call them something other than nasty little > brats, based on the facts so far. > > Tom: > Agreed ? they do appear to be nasty little brats, and from an > outsider's perspective (as in, not the Trio, not Gryffindor, and not the readership or the author) so could HHR be perceived that way. Not by me. I don't perceive the Trio that way. I perceive them as kids who sometimes makes mistakes, but generally want to do the right thing. Show me a Slyth that applies. > Let's not get into the number of times Ron has been rude and > insulting to others for no obvious reason. The Hufflepuffs appear > that was in CoS. And every house takes it out on Harry in GoF. And Ron is the first one to apologize in most cases, something we've yet to see Draco do. The Hufflepuffs also apologized, and every other house was egged on a touch by Slytherin in the beginning and recanted in the middle. > So, what are we talking about here? Kids. And kids are cruel. And I' > d bet that most of the school is composed of nasty little brats ? we just happen to like some of the brats more than others. ;-) > Maybe because we can see some of the brats growing up to be good solid members of the magic community and we can see others growing up to be members of V-Mort's little circle of hate. Darrin -- Good is good and bad is bad. Not everything has to be grey From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 9 00:16:46 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 02:16:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade References: <000001c315bd$99520f40$00570043@hppav> Message-ID: <003c01c315c0$48090280$ad07243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57394 Eric wrote: Frankly, I can't see why Hogwarts students need parental/guardian permission to go to Hogsmeade. We're talking (as nearly as I can tell) about a fairly typical Scottish village that happens to be all-magical-folk, NOT Patpong Road, the Amsterdam red-light district, or the Reeperbahn. (Not that Hogwarts students would be interested in such goings-on...they're sweet, pure, chaste, virginal, demure, and disgusted by such things. At least, that's the Party line and I'm sticking to it.) Me (Izaskun) Well, I don't know how it works in England, but here, in Spain, where I studied, students need to get a written permission by the parent or guardian to leave the school building, that means that if you have an accident or something of the sort, when in an outing, theachers and school governors (or whatever they are called in English) cannot be held responsible for it. CHeers, IZaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Thu May 8 23:25:59 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 23:25:59 -0000 Subject: James Potter Dead???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57395 Peggy: > James is Lupin still! > If this idea is true, then much could be explained: > 1) Lupin's "sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's > shoulder, but thought better of it". > 2)why Lupin acted the way he did when Harry told him that he heard > his father's voice. > 3)how Dumbledore got Jame's invisibility Cloak, and Hagrid got the > key to Harry's vault. (SS-PS) > 4) Why did Lupin say " now that we could all transform..." Why did > he not say "that they could transform"? (Ok this one is a shakey > stretch...don't werewolves transform?---but maybe!) > 5) Remember your mythology? Remus was the legendary wolf child who > was murdered by his brother Romulus? hmmmm. > > > Thoughts???? > > ~~~~~~~~ Not a bad idea, but in the scene where the shades come out of Voldemort's wand (page 667), Lily Potter tells him "Hang on, your father's coming." and then then Harry's father came of the wand and spoke to him. Even if Remus and James did switch bodies, Remus's spirit would look like Remus, not like James, because Jame's spirit would still be in Remus's body. The man in question looked like Harry, and was refered to as his father by Lily. I'm pretty sure James Potter is really dead, and Remus Lupin is really Remus Lupin - Joe From selene at earthlink.net Fri May 9 00:43:44 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:43:44 -0700 Subject: slytherin`s school-HOGWARTS Message-ID: <3EBAF910.83C323AD@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57396 Anne takes a cozy seat ans writes: >Do I recall accurately, that Salazar Slytherin originated his own >wizard- school, after he and the other 3 founders of Hogwarts >diverged too harshly from each other's views? >Please, bear with me if I'm inaccurate and do the same if I'm not: >a- Where was that school? >b- Who attended it? >c- Was it comparable to those Hitler- Jugend- ( Hitler Youth) >schools only for errr Death Eaters? >d- Does it still exist? (I know Rowling said NO regarding other >wizard schools, still!) I have a sneaking notion that it is none other than Durmstrang, home of sturm und drang, whose headmaster is a Death Eater after all. Oh, he was exonerated but the way he disappeared at the end of GoF tells all, does it not? [And whom and what were they teaching there before and during the Second World War? I shudder to think.] >.annie who is in immense need for volume 5 and mint- iceand whose >English enjoys its time without her under palms (lucky it is!) ever >since she's freed of a *very* severe English- teacher (she cracked >*hazelnuts* with her *teeth*, and I'm quite sure she swallowed the >chewed shell as well! She was weird, but- I have to acknowledge- >perfectly so) She sounds like Madame. Your teacher would not be 8 feet tall, would she? >Besides: any ideas what the 4 founders had in mind, when they named >their school "Hogwarts"? It sounds sosodumbledory. But very typically English. There are a lot of English place names that sound really quirky and silly but boast noble Saxon roots. If I had to guess, I would say that it comes from Anglo-Saxon "Haleg" [as in "Hogmany," the Scots dialect term for the Christmas/New Year season, Haleg Monath "Holy Month") plus "ward" meaning, to guard or protect. This was the place where the four founders intended to keep and protect the special young ones. Just a guess, your Saxon is as good as mine, probably better. Susan Fox-Davis Los Angeles, California From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri May 9 00:40:37 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:40:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade In-Reply-To: <000001c315bd$99520f40$00570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > For that matter, it was quite a jump for the MoM to _assume_ instantly that > Sirius Black was after Harry Potter specifically. "He's at Hogwarts?" That > could refer to _anybody_ who is currently "at Hogwarts" in any capacity. Yes, but since they thought that SIrius was responsible for betraying the Potters, only to have that dratted infant defeat his lord and master, Voldemort, I don't think it's a stretch to think that Sirius had evil thoughts about Harry. On the other hand, if they truly thought Sirius was a madman (and Fudge can't seem to make up his mind about that), then why would they assume Sirius would even be aware that Harry was of age to be at Hogwarts? > > Come to it...if they thought that Sirius Black _was_ Voldemort's right-hand > dude, why didn't it occur to anybody that what SB was talking about was his > Lord? "He's at Hogwarts" could have meant that SB had figured out that > _Voldemort_ was hidden in the school somehow, and had nothing to do with > Harry Potter. The Big V had been there before, after all. But, the official line is that V is virtually helpless, if not actually dead. Again, if Sirius was indeed muttering about Voldemort, the MoM would put it down to the ravings of a madman. > I think that the MoM was jumping to conclusions, and that this is another > example of Ministry corruption and ineptitude. Putting Dementors around > Hogwarts, after the Dementors had slipped up already and let SB get loose > somehow, is yet another example...I'd have used Aurors, who can tell the > difference between a student and an escaped convict, and aren't too likely > to try to suck anybody's soul out of them. You know, I don't think I've ever thought about that. Why not use Aurors? They'd be easier to communicate with. They are trained to fight the Dark Forces. They can have the sense of sight, which the Dementors do not have. And they don't give everyone the heebee- jeebees when they're around. Nor would they suddenly take it into their heads to attack a student. Just why wasn't there a contingent of Aurors at Hogswarts? Who was around to control the Dementors if they got out of hand, other than the professors? What kind of Ministry simply dumps a bunch of soul- suckers around a school, apparently with no one charged with controlling them? Marianne From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri May 9 00:47:49 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:47:49 -0000 Subject: James Potter Dead???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57398 Peggy: James is Lupin still! Joe: Not a bad idea, but in the scene where the shades come out of Voldemort's wand (page 667), Lily Potter tells him "Hang on, your father's coming." and then then Harry's father came of the wand and spoke to him. Even if Remus and James did switch bodies, Remus's spirit would look like Remus, not like James, because Jame's spirit would still be in Remus's body. The man in question looked like Harry, and was refered to as his father by Lily. I'm pretty sure James Potter is really dead, and Remus Lupin is really Remus Lupin Tom: For the record, I am totally opposed to seeing a live James or Lily in any of these books - that'd be the best way to take a great story and make it instantaneously corny. Tearful reunion of orphaned son with long-thought-dead parents who are really alive. Oh brother. Although, to be a devil's advocate here, technically what we saw in GoF was not James' 'spirit,' but rather an 'echo' of the living James. Dumbledore tells us that what Harry saw was "an echo... which retained Cedric's appearance and character." (GoF, US paperback, Ch.36) In other words, *if* Lupin and James pulled a spirit-switcheroo, that might not necessarily be evident from the echoes Harry sees during Priori Incantantem. So, it would be possible for Echo!James to still resemble the real James, since we aren't told that the spirits of the dead have anything to do with it. Still, I hope that this is a technicality that JKR doesn't need to ever explain in more detail, because I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Harry's parents are really dead. Not that I want them dead, you see, just that I don't think I could stand the melodrama. ;-) -Tom From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 9 00:50:31 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:50:31 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: <40.2ecdb152.2bec4b97@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57399 Oryomai wrote: > Oh ... I see what you thought I meant. Okay, I didn't mean that there was a good Slytherin deed in that scene, I merely meant that the open endorsement of Gryffindor could have discouraged any good Slytherins from making themselves known. Even I know that there is no good Slytherin deed in the banquet at the end of PS. Dumbledore certainly could have given the points to HRH and Neville before the Great Hall was all decked out in Slyth colors. > That's a *smidgen* cruel. To let the Slytherins think that they have won and then suddenly take it away - for ... well, I won't get into what I think about rule breaking - even if it brings the results that the Trio's rule breaking brings. > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > I think Dumbledore was doing two things here, besides giving Gryff the victory. I believe he was giving the Slyths a tough love lesson, namely, the quality of your points matters more than the quantity. I believe Dumbledore looked at what the Trio and Neville had done and said, this should be rewarded. But he was also, I think, giving a preview of the speech he gives at the end of GoF, showing the group that Voldemort will most want to recruit from that it is better to take the right path than the easy path. There's been a lot of talk about Snape actually being a good teacher by being cruel. Well, then Dumbledore's lesson should really hit home, if that's true. Maybe one of them will remember and I'll get that good Slyth! I DO hope we get one, by the way. I'm sorry if I come off like I gleefully stomp on the Snake Heads. Second, while it was a touch cruel to the Slyths, you have to remember that Harry and Ron both suffered injuries in their quest -- Harry's put him under for several days -- and even Neville got the Body Bind Curse put on him. The alternative to what Dumbledore did would have been to pull the Gryffs aside and say, "Well, you won. Good show" or some other way to break it gently to the Slytherins. That defeats the point he was trying to make in front of the whole school AND fails to honor the sacrifices Harry, Ron and Neville made with their bodies. Darrin -- Snake Stompers. Yeah, good band name. Sorry, Slytherins. P.S. Lion Slayers would be a good one too. So would Badger Bashers and Raven Reamers. From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 9 00:54:12 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:54:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade In-Reply-To: <003c01c315c0$48090280$ad07243e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > Eric wrote: > > > Frankly, I can't see why Hogwarts students need parental/guardian permission > to go to Hogsmeade. We're talking (as nearly as I can tell) about a fairly > typical Scottish village that happens to be all-magical-folk, NOT Patpong > Road, the Amsterdam red-light district, or the Reeperbahn. (Not that > Hogwarts students would be interested in such goings-on...they're sweet, > pure, chaste, virginal, demure, and disgusted by such things. At least, > that's the Party line and I'm sticking to it.) > > Me (Izaskun) > Well, I don't know how it works in England, but here, in Spain, where I studied, students need to get a written permission by the parent or guardian to leave the school building, that means that if you have an accident or something of the sort, when in an outing, theachers and school governors (or whatever they are called in English) cannot be held responsible for it. > We're also talking about a place where alcohol is served, where there is a house thought to be haunted, and where there are all kinds of adults in and out, and perhaps not all of them have pure intentions. It seems to me that Dumbledore and McGonagall could have been a TOUCH more sympathetic, considering what they know of Harry's homelife... Heh... I'm opening myself up to the hypocrite chant here, but I have to say, I'd consider Harry less of a rulebreaker if he'd just forged the damn note. He certainly put up with 99 percent of the week with Aunt Marge and deserved, in my mind, to get Vernon's signature. But that cloak? Yeah, that's more problematic. I can't explain it. Maybe someone else can get in my head and do so. Darrin -- Fix anything else you find in there while you're at it. From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 9 01:26:57 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:26:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade References: Message-ID: <000601c315ca$15af1a40$67cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57401 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > > For that matter, it was quite a jump for the MoM to _assume_ > instantly that > > Sirius Black was after Harry Potter specifically. "He's at > Hogwarts?" That > > could refer to _anybody_ who is currently "at Hogwarts" in any > capacity. > Marianne wrote: > Yes, but since they thought that SIrius was responsible for betraying > the Potters, only to have that dratted infant defeat his lord and > master, Voldemort, I don't think it's a stretch to think that Sirius > had evil thoughts about Harry. > > On the other hand, if they truly thought Sirius was a madman (and > Fudge can't seem to make up his mind about that), then why would they > assume Sirius would even be aware that Harry was of age to be at > Hogwarts? > This is just fascinating. I had always looked at it as the former, which is the same way everyone else viewed it, that Sirius was coming after Harry at Hogwarts. But Fudge does seem to be telling two stories here. I personally have wondered for awhile just how trustworthy he is on the whole Sirius Black incident, since he was also conveniently first on the scene and was responsible for Sirius not getting a trial in the first place. I really wonder if the DE's have something on Fudge that would make him more sympathetic to their cause. > > > > > Come to it...if they thought that Sirius Black _was_ Voldemort's > right-hand > > dude, why didn't it occur to anybody that what SB was talking about > was his > > Lord? "He's at Hogwarts" could have meant that SB had figured out > that > > _Voldemort_ was hidden in the school somehow, and had nothing to do > with > > Harry Potter. The Big V had been there before, after all. > > But, the official line is that V is virtually helpless, if not > actually dead. Again, if Sirius was indeed muttering about > Voldemort, the MoM would put it down to the ravings of a madman. > See above. Sirius Black is whatever Fudge needs him to be. Also keep in mind that people are willing to give more concessions and are more manipulable when they are afraid. Sirius makes a good bogeyman. And to cover all bases, Voldemort does not because he is *too* scary. Voldemort, either overtly or through showing the MoM is unable to protect the people, could undermine Fudge's power base. Sirius Black, right now, cannot. However, if he were no longer the perfect scapegoat, could, and I'm not sure if Fudge has realized that. > > > I think that the MoM was jumping to conclusions, and that this is > another > > example of Ministry corruption and ineptitude. Putting Dementors > around > > Hogwarts, after the Dementors had slipped up already and let SB get > loose > > somehow, is yet another example...I'd have used Aurors, who can > tell the > > difference between a student and an escaped convict, and aren't too > likely > > to try to suck anybody's soul out of them. > > You know, I don't think I've ever thought about that. Why not use > Aurors? They'd be easier to communicate with. They are trained to > fight the Dark Forces. They can have the sense of sight, which the > Dementors do not have. And they don't give everyone the heebee- > jeebees when they're around. Nor would they suddenly take it into > their heads to attack a student. > > Just why wasn't there a contingent of Aurors at Hogswarts? Who was > around to control the Dementors if they got out of hand, other than > the professors? What kind of Ministry simply dumps a bunch of soul- > suckers around a school, apparently with no one charged with > controlling them? > Excellent point about the Aurors. As I said above, I have wondered if the DE's have something on Fudge that would make him more amenable to working with them. This could be another example of this. He has always supported the dementors' role at Azkaban. Granted, the majority of his constituents probably support them, too. Is there some reason he supports the dementors so much? Again, Aurors could guard Azkaban, but Fudge keeps the dementors there, even though there is a chance they would support Voldemort if he ever came back. On this note, though, it doesn't even have to be that the DE's control him in such an overt way, but perhaps something a little milder, such as Lucius making it worth his while to keep them there (you know how Lucius is on those generous contributions). Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From elfundeb at comcast.net Fri May 9 01:42:41 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 01:42:41 -0000 Subject: Women and the Franchise in WW History (WAS: Harry and Morality) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57402 Barb wrote: >[I]n one of the schoolbooks, Quidditch Through the > Ages, a letter is quoted that is supposed to be from a witch who > couldn't vote for the Minister of Magic. (Something like, "If I had > a vote, he would have lost mine." Forgive the paraphrase.) This > implies that there was a time in wizarding society when women were > disenfranchised. While we don't know how or when that changed, it's > quite possible that it occurred after law-breaking similar to what > occurred in Muggle society: women chained themselves to the gates of > Parliament, among other things, to protest their not having the > vote. I've always wondered about the implications of this sentence. Is it intended to imply that women were disenfranchised, that most wizards were disenfranchised (at the time, IIRC, the English Muggle franchise belonged only to those who owned land), or both? On the one hand, QTTA indicates that this letter was written in 1269, but only a century later there was a female Chief of the Wizard's Council (predecessor to the Ministry for Magic), and under her leadership, the council passed enlightened measures such as species protection for the Golden Snidget and a new definition of "beings". Did the witch suffrage movement take place that long ago? Or was Elfrida Clegg chosen by male council members for strategic reasons? On the other hand, since the WW seems to parallel the Muggle world in many ways, perhaps there was no universal suffrage; even today, the Minister for Magic seems to be chosen by a select club of pureblooded wizards (e.g., Sirius says in Padfoot Returns that Crouch Sr. was "tipped" for the position) that may echo the early wizard's council. Alternatively, the reference to voting in the thirteenth century compared to a later reference to a nineteenth-century Minister for Magic issuing decrees may suggest that the more egalitarian thirteenth century government was replaced by an increasingly powerful Minister in more modern times who could act without the consent of a council, and that recent Ministers have discriminated in favor of pureblooded males, so that the top jobs are no longer available to the Muggleborn (Dumbledore tells Fudge in The Parting of the Ways that he places too much importance "on the so-called purity of blood") or to women, who are conspicuously absent from the list of holders of top jobs at the MoM. > I'd love to get more background on > the history of Magical Britain from JKR. She's spoken of writing a > sort of encyclopedia of this sort. I hope it would include > information about things like this! Me too! She also suggested in an interview that more would be coming about women in the WW. If so, I wonder if these tantalizing sentences were included in the schoolbooks to hint at a future subplot. Debbie wishing Binns would cover this in class instead of goblin rebellions From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Fri May 9 01:43:18 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 01:43:18 -0000 Subject: Sort-of OT reference about Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57403 "xmezumiiru" Chris wrote: <> Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I was reading a book earlier about Greek Mythology and found the saying, "Argus-Eyed". In Greek Mythical, Argus had a hundred eyes with which to observe things.Mercury killed Argus, and Juno, Mercury's wife, turned Argus into a peacock. That is how it happens that a peacock tail has a hundres eyes. I am pretty sure that is why the name Argus (Filch) was used. Fred Waldrop From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 9 01:47:16 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:47:16 -0500 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... References: Message-ID: <001001c315cc$ee123c30$67cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57404 Tom: > Granted, this isn't a rule, but it's generally how they behave. > They're nice kids, but they can be just as rude and mean as the > Slytherins we see in canon. Darrin: I think the Slyths outdo them. When has a member of the Trio openly called for genocide, for instance? Or how about beating up and stealing from a weaker kid? (Leg-Locker and Remembrall on Neville.) Or participate in a potentially fatal prank during a Quidditch match? Kelly (me): A member of the Trio has not done any of these things. However, since we are talking about Gryffindors and Slytherins, I would like to bring up the famous prank pulled by Sirius on Snape, which had the potential to be either fatal or majorly life-changing (two werewolves at Hogwarts). The prank was initiated by a Gryffindor on a Slytherin. Granted, a Gryffindor risked his life to save the Slytherin from the potentially harmful prank, but Gryffindors are not above reproach either. Arguments can be made for and against Sirius's motives in telling Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow and giving him the chance to see Werewolf!Lupin. I say the same arguments could be made for Draco's motives in the dementor prank. Darrin: Even the usually gregarious twins won't acknowledge Cedric when they're about to take the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup, and over a defeat in Quidditch from the prior year? Please. Kelly (me): That was pretty lame. Another reason I am so sick of the House rivalries. Poor Cedric took so much crap from the Gryffindors that entire year because the Hufflepuffs beat them at Quidditch the previous year. The spiteful side of me hopes that those people who gave him crap that year feel really bad now. I do exempt Harry from this because he seemed to get the point at the end when he offered to share the Cup with Cedric. Plus Harry is going to feel bad about Cedric's death anyway. Darrin: Bottom line. All the off-screen stuff is fun to speculate about, but the facts remain, the Slyths, so far, are the villains of this epic. Kelly (me): In many ways, they are, but never forget the true villain of the epic, Lord Voldemort. Tom: > If you're looking for `decent' behavior, I'd submit that it's not > all that fair to demand it of just the Slytherins - let's demand it > of everyone equally and across the board. Darrin: I've gotten it from the Gryffs, thank you. And the Hufflepuffs so far seem to be all right. Kelly (me): The Hufflepuffs, like everyone else, have had their bad moments. They seemed to be the biggest accusers of Harry in CoS. They heard he was a Parselmouth, and right away they dubbed him the Heir of Slytherin and told Finch-Fletchley (sp?) to go hide in the dorm because he was going to be Harry's next target. All this, in spite of Harry being a Gryffindor and having been friendly to them before. Granted, they did apologize later, but they did jump to conclusions rather quickly. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 9 02:26:18 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 02:26:18 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: <001001c315cc$ee123c30$67cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57405 > Kelly: > > A member of the Trio has not done any of these things. However, since we > are talking about Gryffindors and Slytherins, I would like to bring up the famous prank pulled by Sirius on Snape, which had the potential to be either fatal or majorly life-changing (two werewolves at Hogwarts). The prank was initiated by a Gryffindor on a Slytherin. Granted, a Gryffindor risked his life to save the Slytherin from the potentially harmful prank, but Gryffindors are not above reproach either. Arguments can be made for and against Sirius's motives in telling Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow and giving him the chance to see Werewolf!Lupin. I say the same > arguments could be made for Draco's motives in the dementor prank. You rested my case by acknowledging James' stopping Snape. Do you see a Slytherin risking his life to stop Draco, Crabbe, Goyle and Flint from doing what they did? How about a Slyth standing up to Draco when he goes on a "Mudbloods must die" rant? I'm not going to justify what Sirius did, BUT, he did not force Snape to go down to the Whomping Willow, did he? Certainly, he had a good idea how Snape would react, but all he did was point and Snape, blinded by jealousy and hate, followed, trying to get the Mauraders in trouble. (Parenthetically, just how STUPID is Snape? One of your greatest enemies at school tells you to go inside the Whomping Willow and you GO without any kind of protection? I mean, really. It's a good thing Snape knew hexes and curses, because he was a gullible little git.) Now, Sirius had a pretty good idea what Snape would do, so he is certainly not blameless. But again, I do think there is a difference between suggesting to someone a way they can fall into a trap and dressing up as a dementor to try and make someone fall off a broom. > Darrin: > > Even the usually gregarious twins won't acknowledge Cedric when > they're about to take the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup, and > over a defeat in Quidditch from the prior year? Please. > > Kelly (me): > > That was pretty lame. Another reason I am so sick of the House rivalries. Poor Cedric took so much crap from the Gryffindors that entire year because the Hufflepuffs beat them at Quidditch the previous year. The spiteful side of me hopes that those people who gave him crap that year feel really bad now. I do exempt Harry from this because he seemed to get the point at the end when he offered to share the Cup with Cedric. Plus Harry is going to feel bad about Cedric's death anyway. > I just flipped through all of GoF leading up to the Goblet of Fire and in the chapters up through the first task, when there is a general easing of tension. I can find no reference to any Gryffindor giving Cedric grief. The closest we come is to Fred and George not being overly talktative, which is weak, to say the least. Ron says, "No!" when Cedric's name is picked. pg 238 UK, but no one hears him but Harry because the Hufflepuffs are cheering too loud. Katie Bell says, "You'll be able to pay back Diggory for that last Quidditch match, Harry" on page 250, while they were in the Gryff common room. Cedric heard neither of those comments. On the other hand, the Hufflepuffs completely shut out Harry. The Slytherins, true to form, taunt Harry and cynically use Cedric as the tool. And the Ravenclaws assume the worst about Harry, thinking he was out for glory. pgs 259-260. The girls looked at Harry as though he was a particularly large, Blast-Ended Skrewt. pge 260. Pg 297: Harry didn't want to talk to Cedric in front of them (referring to sixth-year friends of Cedric's) they were among those who had been quoting Rita Skeeter's articles at him every time he went near them. This was just before Harry, well before the fair play you credit him with in the maze, told Cedric about the dragons. I think he got the "point" well before you give him credit for it. Soon after that, the inter-house tensions ease up. The Hufflepuffs back off -- Harry suspects Cedric asked them to do so, and it's just a guess on his part, but it certainly is a good guess -- and only the Slyths are left to cause trouble. -- pge 340. So, if you can find for me all the grief the Gryffs should feel bad about now that Cedric is dead, I'll listen, but I don't see where it was. If anything, a hell of a lot of people -- including the Slyths, but don't make me laugh -- owe Harry some apologies. > Tom: > > If you're looking for `decent' behavior, I'd submit that it's not > > all that fair to demand it of just the Slytherins - let's demand it > > of everyone equally and across the board. > > Darrin: > I've gotten it from the Gryffs, thank you. And the Hufflepuffs so far > seem to be all right. > > Kelly (me): > > The Hufflepuffs, like everyone else, have had their bad moments. They seemed to be the biggest accusers of Harry in CoS. They heard he was a Parselmouth, and right away they dubbed him the Heir of Slytherin and told Finch-Fletchley (sp?) to go hide in the dorm because he was going to be Harry's next target. All this, in spite of Harry being a Gryffindor andhaving been friendly to them before. Granted, they did apologize later, but they did jump to conclusions rather quickly. > Again, when has a Slyth apologized? That's the key difference. Darrin -- Chudley CANNONS! They are going to win it this year! From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri May 9 02:35:03 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 21:35:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James Potter Dead???? References: <4.2.0.58.20030509004109.0097dae0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <002201c315d3$99a7a750$1fa0cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 57406 peggybaratto wrote: > > > >Thoughts???? GulPlum AKA Richard, who thinks the theory stinks, for the record :-) said: > I suspect most people who have an opinion have already said all they have > to say on the subject, either over the last few days or the previous times > this theory was discussed. :-) Well, except for me. I've had another thought, while listening to PoA in the car today. I also think the theory stinks, but I did have a thought that could correspond. Not too long after all the "You heard James?" etc. from Lupin, in his next antidementor lesson, Harry asks about what's under a dementors hood. Lupin procedes to tell him no one really knows who can actually say, but then says they must have a mouth because the jaws are clamped over the mouth to suck out the soul. Would it then be possible to return that soul to another body? Could two souls be switched and live on in different bodies? Believe me, I still don't buy into the Lupin/James switch theory, but it made me wonder. Richelle From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 9 02:39:26 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 02:39:26 -0000 Subject: Addendum to my Diggory Grief post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57407 I wrote: > > I just flipped through all of GoF leading up to the Goblet of Fire > and in the chapters up through the first task, when there is a > general easing of tension. > > I can find no reference to any Gryffindor giving Cedric grief. The > closest we come is to Fred and George not being overly talktative, > which is weak, to say the least. > > Ron says, "No!" when Cedric's name is picked. pg 238 UK, but no one > hears him but Harry because the Hufflepuffs are cheering too loud. > > Katie Bell says, "You'll be able to pay back Diggory for that last > Quidditch match, Harry" on page 250, while they were in the Gryff > common room. > > Cedric heard neither of those comments. I found another one. Page 230, Seamus makes a comment about Diggory not wanting to risk his good looks by entering the Tournament.. Cedric, nor any other Hufflepuff, hears him. Then, a few paragraphs down, Seamus says to Angelina, "Better you than Pretty Boy Diggory" which causes several Hufflepuffs passing the table to scowl at him. Again, those comments don't appear to be directed AT Diggory. The Hufflepuffs overhear it. That's really all I could find. So, I suppose Seamus should feel bad. But again, I think the original comment, which was along the lines of wanting all the Gryffs to feel bad for ALL the grief given to Cedric ALL the year, is exaggerated greatly. Darrin -- Continuing to look... From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri May 9 03:00:35 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 03:00:35 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57408 Tom (I) wrote earlier: Granted, this isn't a rule, but it's generally how they behave. They're nice kids, but they can be just as rude and mean as the Slytherins we see in canon. Darrin replied: I think the Slyths outdo them. When has a member of the Trio openly called for genocide, for instance? Or how about beating up and stealing from a weaker kid? (Leg-Locker and Remembrall on Neville.) Or participate in a potentially fatal prank during a Quidditch match? Tom responds: Yeah, now we're talking! The Slytherins, I agree, *outdo* the Gryffindors when it comes to clever insults, pranks, and general antagonism. But by saying that the Slytherins outdo the Gryffindors, there's a tacit acceptance of the fact that the Gryffindor's aren't virginally white here, either. I don't see the trio calling for genocide, but I see Harry and Ron and just about everyone else complacently accept house-elf slavery. I see Ron buy into bigotry over the giants and werewolves fairly easily. I don't see the trio bullying others, but I saw Hermione freeze up Neville in PS/SS when he tried to stop them from breaking *more* rules, and I saw Ron trash-talking Neville for absolutely no reason in GoF. As for pranks, well no dementor imitations, for sure, but I saw Harry toss a firecracker into a cauldron full of Swelling Solution, thereby splashing the entire class. I saw Harry and Ron first drug, and then imitate Crabbe and Goyle, and then sneak into the Slytherin common room, which is a major violation. Don't want to beat a dead horse here, but what do you think Harry would do if he found out that Draco had figured out how to get into Gryffindor Tower? He'd be *livid.* I saw Harry take full advantage of his Invisibility cloak while he was at illegally at Hogsmeade to sling mud at Draco 'n friends in front of the Shrieking Shack. And I understand why they did these things, too. But just because I know why they did these things doesn't get them off the hook - they still did them, and they were still wrongful actions. Morality is not an arbitrary, 'it works this way for you and this different way for me' kind-of thing, and that's how you're applying it to this situation. You're saying that Gryffindors do bad stuff, but it's okay because they have good intentions and the author paints them fondly. And that Slytherins do bad stuff, but it's not okay because they don't and the author paints them negatively. That's not how morality works. Morality is supposed to be a rigid system, which applies equally across the board. So, Gryffindor isn't perfect. I like them - they're alright kids, and darned funny. But they aren't beyond reproach. Tom (I) wrote previously: What Darrin's really asking here is, when has *Harry* seen a Slyth do anything decent? So, it can only be fairly asked: does that really count? Since Harry doesn't hang out with the Slytherins, and since he doesn't like them, either, we can't possibly expect him to be looking for or even noticing any hints of possible Slytherin virtue. Darrin replied: I'm not going to argue the negative. If it's not in canon, it doesn't exist. Bottom line. All the off-screen stuff is fun to speculate about, but the facts remain, the Slyths, so far, are the villains of this epic. So, the imagined scenes about Slyths helping little old witches across the street will just have to stay imagined. END QUOTE. I (Tom) add: Whoa, buddy, sarcasm will getcha nowhere. ;-) I'm not arguing from the negative perspective, I'm simply pointing out that Harry isn't a very likely candidate to be giving the Slytherins any benefit of the doubt. And so, I'm explaining that this is why the Slytherins are painted so unsympathetically in canon, because this is Harry's story. And because of that, anything that the Slytherins do that *could* be reasonably read as showing any modicum of virtue will predictably either be disregarded by the trio, or else twisted. So, my point is that first off, we're not likely to see anything really compassionate in the Slytherins' behavior. And if we do see anything that indicates that some compassion exists, then it's likely to be contorted and misconstrued by our heroes. Furthermore, since we do not see enough of the Slytherins in canon, other than their antagonism with the trio, I don't think that it's a tenable position to take, arguing that *no* Slytherin is decent. You want to say something a little less extreme, like, "most of them appear to be pretty mean" or something, then okay. But the always/never/all-or-nothing arguments rarely work in the real world, and they won't work here in the fictional one either. As for Slytherin compassion and decency, we have Snape. You don't want to count him. We have the the Slytherins standing at the mention of Cedric's name at the end of GoF. You don't want to count that. I've given you Pansy's concern for Draco, and you accepted it, but then said that because Draco and the others milked it for what it was worth, Pansy's concern didn't count anymore. I've given you the Slytherin group's evident concern for Draco at dinner, and you don't want to count that either because they were 'cooking up' their own version of the story. My point on that last one was twofold: one, that there were so *many* Slytherins involved, which indicates that the group cares for Draco. It wasn't just Crabbe, Goyle, and Pansy. It was a group. Two, that 'cooking up' a version isn't really a damnable thing to do, unless you want to slam-dunk the trio for their chronic lies and deceit as well. Which I don't, and I don't think that Slytherin deserves it for doing what Gryffindor does all the time. So, I have to wonder, exactly what are you trying to prove? Are you trying to prove that HHR are generally great and lovable kids with acceptable character flaws, as you say thusly: "I perceive them as kids who sometimes makes mistakes, but generally want to do the right thing." If so, then I wholeheartedly concur, and have always concurred with that perspective, since that's what the books tell us on the surface. No analysis necessary. Or, are you trying to argue, as you allude at the end of your post, that because "Good is good and bad is bad. Not everything has to be grey," that therefore Gryffindor is Good and Slytherin is Bad? If that's the case, then I can't agree, because I think that's an overly simplistic view of things. IMHO, this is one of those cases where the Slytherin students definitely fall into a grey area - they're not out and out evil, and they're not sweet and perfectly moral. And my point is that the yes, Slytherins are not perfectly moral, but neither are the Gryffindors or anyone else. Kelly added: never forget the true villain of the epic, Lord Voldemort. Tom remarks: Exactly, Kelly. Thanks for that. I personally believe that the only two people who can be accurately classified as completely 'good' or completely 'evil' are Dumbledore and Voldemort. They're the polar opposites. *Everyone* else falls into a moral grey area. Everyone else occasionally breaks rules, or does something they later come to regret, or puts others in danger through foolishness or recklessness, or else makes a moral mistake by lying, or by being mean to someone, or by being stubborn and overly proud, or envious, or... you get the idea. And that's because they're human. And that's, IMO, what makes them great characters. I don't think I'd be interested at all in HP if all the good guys were unquestionably good, and all the bad guys were unquestionably bad, and there was no one in the middle. That, my skilled interlocutor, is the recipe for the most boring story ever. Tom (I) posited previously: What we can see from the little bit of Slytherin interaction that we do get, is that they're a tightly knit group, and in my judgment, tightly knit groups behave decently with each other most of the time. So, it's an inference, but I think it's a fair one. Darrin retorted: The SS guards were tightly knit as well. So were the bands of bounty hunters that chased runaway slaves. So were the Japanese guards marching the soldiers at Bataan. Tightly-knit does not equal good. Tom returns: Ahhh, but that is not what I said. I didn't say that tightly knit groups were good. I said that tightly knit groups, in my experience, are decent with *each other* most of the time. And so, the SS guards, and the bounty hunters, and so forth, although on-the-whole morally bankrupt, probably were decent with each other. In other words, it might be like honor amongst thieves. Maybe the Slytherins don't play nice with the Gryffindors. But they do seem to get along with themselves fairly well. I.e. we don't see any cases of internal Slytherin problems and arguments. This indicates that they're 'decent' with each other. And you asked for decency. So, there it is. And that's my point. You can do evil things and still have shreds of morality. Or, you can do a few good things and still be a bad person overall. In other words, saying that the Japanese guards, or Slytherin House, are one-hundred-percent across-the-board the very personification of evil, I think that is going a little bit overboard. In the words of bboy_mn, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;-) -Tom From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 9 03:04:28 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 22:04:28 -0500 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... References: Message-ID: <003101c315d7$b5199350$67cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57409 From: "darrin_burnett" To: Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 9:26 PM Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... > > Kelly: > > > > A member of the Trio has not done any of these things. However, > since we > > are talking about Gryffindors and Slytherins, I would like to bring > up the famous prank pulled by Sirius on Snape, which had the > potential to be either fatal or majorly life-changing (two werewolves > at Hogwarts). The prank was initiated by a Gryffindor on a > Slytherin. Granted, a Gryffindor risked his life to save the > Slytherin from the potentially harmful prank, but Gryffindors are not > above reproach either. Arguments can be made for and against > Sirius's motives in telling Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow > and giving him the chance to see Werewolf!Lupin. I say the same > > arguments could be made for Draco's motives in the dementor prank. > Darrin: > You rested my case by acknowledging James' stopping Snape. > > Do you see a Slytherin risking his life to stop Draco, Crabbe, Goyle > and Flint from doing what they did? How about a Slyth standing up to > Draco when he goes on a "Mudbloods must die" rant? > No, I admit I did not. > I'm not going to justify what Sirius did, BUT, he did not force Snape > to go down to the Whomping Willow, did he? Certainly, he had a good > idea how Snape would react, but all he did was point and Snape, > blinded by jealousy and hate, followed, trying to get the Mauraders > in trouble. > > (Parenthetically, just how STUPID is Snape? One of your greatest > enemies at school tells you to go inside the Whomping Willow and you > GO without any kind of protection? I mean, really. It's a good thing > Snape knew hexes and curses, because he was a gullible little git.) I've been thinking the same thing. Snape may be book-smart, but he seems to be lacking in the common sense department. Either that, or he became blinded by his passions like he was at the end of PoA. > > Now, Sirius had a pretty good idea what Snape would do, so he is > certainly not blameless. > > But again, I do think there is a difference between suggesting to > someone a way they can fall into a trap and dressing up as a dementor > to try and make someone fall off a broom. > Only a little bit of difference. As we both have agreed, Sirius could be pretty sure that Snape would take the bait. If Snape takes the bait (which we know he does), he is going to face a fully grown werewolf. When that happens, he will either be ripped to pieces by it or be bitten by it. Unless he happens to be quick enough to come up with the right hex/curse to stop Lupin before he can reach him. Granted, what precisely will happen in this case is not as well-defined as Draco's little stunt, but none of the alternatives, except the lower odds one of Snape actually being able to stop Lupin without killing him, are much good for Snape, either. I really don't see much difference between the two pranks. The major difference, in my mind, is that Sirius might truly not have been aware of all the risks for Snape, perhaps figuring Snape would get the scare of his life. Draco, we can be sure, did figure that Harry would freak out again, although it can be argued that he was just trying to distract him from gettiing the snitch. I don't think Draco would have shed any tears had Harry fallen off the broom again and injured himself. > > > Darrin: > > > > Even the usually gregarious twins won't acknowledge Cedric when > > they're about to take the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup, and > > over a defeat in Quidditch from the prior year? Please. > > > > Kelly (me): > > > > That was pretty lame. Another reason I am so sick of the House > rivalries. Poor Cedric took so much crap from the Gryffindors that > entire year because the Hufflepuffs beat them at Quidditch the > previous year. > > The spiteful side of me hopes that those people who gave him crap > that year feel really bad now. I do exempt Harry from this because > he seemed to get the point at the end when he offered to share the > Cup with Cedric. Plus Harry is going to feel bad about Cedric's > death anyway. > > > Darrin: > I just flipped through all of GoF leading up to the Goblet of Fire > and in the chapters up through the first task, when there is a > general easing of tension. > > I can find no reference to any Gryffindor giving Cedric grief. The > closest we come is to Fred and George not being overly talktative, > which is weak, to say the least. Ok, maybe I worded that badly. But they still said some pretty mean things about him and didn't seem to want to give him a chance simply because of the Quidditch match the previous year. This attitude annoyed me, which prompted my comment. > > Pg 297: Harry didn't want to talk to Cedric in front of them > (referring to sixth-year friends of Cedric's) they were among those > who had been quoting Rita Skeeter's articles at him every time he > went near them. > > This was just before Harry, well before the fair play you credit him > with in the maze, told Cedric about the dragons. I think he got > the "point" well before you give him credit for it. > I got the impression he wanted to help Cedric in the earlier trial because he felt bad that everyone else had knowledge of the event and Cedric didn't. He didn't think it was fair. I see it as a little more of Harry's sense of fair-play than a true bridging of House rivalry. It was a beginning of that, though, but I don't think Harry was quite there yet. I see the Triwizard Cup as the actual big step here, putting aside House affiliation and doing it for Hogwarts. > So, if you can find for me all the grief the Gryffs should feel bad > about now that Cedric is dead, I'll listen, but I don't see where it > was. If anything, a hell of a lot of people -- including the Slyths, > but don't make me laugh -- owe Harry some apologies. > See above. And I don't see any apologies from the Slytherins forthcoming, either. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Fri May 9 04:49:29 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 04:49:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > Just why wasn't there a contingent of Aurors at Hogswarts? Who was > around to control the Dementors if they got out of hand, other than > the professors? What kind of Ministry simply dumps a bunch of soul- > suckers around a school, apparently with no one charged with > controlling them? I have posted a reply to this particular question up thread. Basically how many Aurors do we actually know of in existence, by the end of book four? Why, so few mentioned alive and so many mentioned as victims of the DE during the darker times and soon after. I would say the MOM simply had a lot less faith in Aurors to handle Lord Voldemorts followers. However that their numbers may be larger than I have assumed. On the other hand the Dementors had kept the infamous Black quite contained for upwards of a decade. Dementors, therefore, stand out as the more competent protection against Death eaters than Aurors. Fudge of course fears more for his own life than for Harry's. So endangering the students of Hogwarts is an elementary risk as far as he is concerned to protect the wizard world from the "treacherous" Sirius Black. Easy equation. well wishes from Valky From ultimatesen at aol.com Fri May 9 05:15:17 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 05:15:17 -0000 Subject: James Potter Dead???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57411 peggy: > According to Galadrial Waters (Wizarding World Press' Ultimate > Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter: Analysis of Books > 1-4) (yes, I've heard many complaints about this book, but...), > she belives the real Lupin is dead. James and he took an extra > precausion because and performed a switching spell. If this is true, > James is Lupin still! > If this idea is true, then much could be explained: > 1) Lupin's "sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's > shoulder, but thought better of it". > 2)why Lupin acted the way he did when Harry told him that he heard > his father's voice. > 3)how Dumbledore got Jame's invisibility Cloak, and Hagrid got the > key to Harry's vault. (SS-PS) > 4) Why did Lupin say " now that we could all transform..." Why did > he not say "that they could transform"? (Ok this one is a shakey > stretch...don't werewolves transform?---but maybe!) > 5) Remember your mythology? Remus was the legendary wolf child who > was murdered by his brother Romulus? hmmmm. me: I've read the Ultimate Unofficial book also. I loved it. I doubt JKR is going to bring in a "Romulus". I had had several reasons awhile back as to why the Lupin=James thing couldn't work(cold meds are a wonderful thing!LOL), but I cannot remember them all at this time. #1 being JKR has said we will never see a live Lily or James. Granted there could be the loophole of "it's not *really* James.. It's James in Lupin's body", but I doubt it. As much as I'd love to let myself believe this, my mind is telling me not to for some reason. *crossing fingers for it to happen* Sen From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Fri May 9 07:11:52 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:11:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57412 >From: Lissa B >Lissa replied: >Honestly, I think there's a chance Voldemort would have succeeded in >killing himself--and Harry--if Voldemort had not been under the magical >influence of so many immortality-granting spells & potions. I suspect >these were powerful enough to protect Voldemort just enough to spare >Harry and to keep the Dark Lord himself in existence in a sort of >limbo. At the same time, I'm not sure--please correct me if I'm >wrong--it is canonically possible in Rowling's Potterverse to kill your >father during time travel. Hermione notes that you can kill your past >or future self, but she doesn't say you can kill your parents. That's >one of those classic time-traveling paradoxes. Different authors, no >doubt, would take different stances on it. If I'm missing a passage or >ignoring something JKR said, please let me know. I'm genuinely >interested in this. Rosebeth: You're right in that we have no idea what the effect of LV's experiments with immortality has on him or his attempt to kill Harry. In PA (US Ed. page 399 paperback), Hermione says "Harry, what do you think you'd do if you saw yourself bursting into Hagrid's house?" "I'd - I'd think I'd gone mad," said Harry, "or I'd think there was some Dark Magic going on - " "Exactly! You wouldn't understand, you might even attack yourself! Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time . . . .Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!" This is all I found on the issue. It's my belief that you can kill yourself while time traveling then you can kill anyone, including your parents. > > >Lissa replied: >I really have to apologize for not fully explaining my theory, but I was >trying to keep my post short. I don't believe anyone took Riddle back >to 1927. I think Ginny, for whatever reason, goes back to 1926 already >pregnant with Harry's child and gives birth to him there. Whether she's >turned a bit evil and knows what she's doing or whether she's suffering >from memory-alteration, I have no idea. In any case, I believe she >either genuinely falls in love with Riddle Sr and marries him or dupes >him into marrying her. Then she dies giving birth to Tom Marvolo >Riddle. > Rosebeth: This brings more questions to mind. Why does she go back? Does she know she's pregnant before she goes and that Harry's the father? Why wouldn't she leave a more obvious clue that Harry is the father? I'm sure there are more, but it's late. > > >Lissa replied: >If my theory ends up true, I think it will be one of the hardest tests >Harry will face. Yes he does yearn for family. I really don't think he >will be able to kill his own son. I think it will be up to someone else >to step in and do the job. Rosebeth: I have no evidence for this, but it seems to me that Harry is being set up to bring down LV. > >Lissa replied: I have no evidence to point toward Ginny's state of mind. >Well... no, I'll take that back. I am intrigued by "Marvolo". I think >it's significant somehow, but all my attempts to unravel its meaning >have lead nowhere reasonable. Rosebeth: I agree that the name Marvolo is important, but I have no idea how. > Rosebeth Looking forward to whatever lies ahead for Harry. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Fri May 9 07:13:12 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 07:13:12 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins In-Reply-To: <3EBAE6DE.EDAD941E@colfax.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57413 Hey Lissa, I was just now thinking about the Astounding Theory that has Overtones of StarWars crossed with Terminator. :) I suddenly thought about something that I think would interest you in the HP for grownups site. Go to the link below and read the post you get by clicking on the following links MAGIC DISHWASHER , 39662. Frankly, this is one of the best posts I have seen in relation to the subject matter it deals with. Namely the secret workings of Dumbledore. http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html Valky From petalla at express56.com Fri May 9 06:32:01 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 06:32:01 -0000 Subject: James Potter Dead???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57414 > Not a bad idea, but in the scene where the shades come out of > Voldemort's wand (page 667), Lily Potter tells him "Hang on, your > father's coming." and then then Harry's father came of the wand and > spoke to him. Even if Remus and James did switch bodies, Remus's > spirit would look like Remus, not like James, because Jame's spirit > would still be in Remus's body. The man in question looked like > Harry, and was refered to as his father by Lily. I'm pretty sure > James Potter is really dead, and Remus Lupin is really Remus Lupin > > - Joe Joe, We have been told by Dumbledore that these were not ghosts, or the spirits of the dead--they were just shadows. If they are only shadows of the people who died, why would they not take on the appearances of the bodies that died? I don't honestly know how I feel about the theory, though I do think it is interesting, and well thought out. If Lily did perform this "switch"--why would her shadow give her away? I mean if it did happen, would it not be kept as a secret? ~~~~~~~~Peggy From elmindreda8558 at aol.com Fri May 9 06:46:27 2003 From: elmindreda8558 at aol.com (jahanua) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 06:46:27 -0000 Subject: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > Alex Cukier: > > I truly believe that James, Lilly, Harry and Voldemort were not the > only person that tragic October 31st. Of course this ideas are not > entirely new, and I'm sorry if this was discussed before > > > > If there was a 5th person at Godric's Hollow, who could be? This > person had an active role in what happened or was hidden? regarding all the recent discussion, I believe there could have been a fifth person, or not. If there was, I have no doubt there was only 5. Not many people knew where the Potters were. The potters themselves, Dumbledore, Pettigrew, and sirius. I don't think anyone else did. I also do not believe this would be a secret Petigrew would tell Voldomort in front of anyone. That would point to the fifth person being Petigrew, and there only being 5. Sirius, came too late, or at least that is what he tells Harry. I do not believe Snape knew where to find the Potters either. - Jahanua From elmindreda8558 at aol.com Fri May 9 10:17:34 2003 From: elmindreda8558 at aol.com (jahanua) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 10:17:34 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins In-Reply-To: <3EBA47DA.DBF9D8B9@colfax.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa B wrote: > > --- Lissa wrote: > > > a long post that Harry Potter and Ginny > > Weasley may be > > > Tom Riddle's biological > > > parents.> > Ok, since I have read all the responces, this has a little to do with several. First of all, when relating Harry's living relations, Voldemort may not be living, but the weasleys certainly are. If Harry had a child with Ginny, and Ginny is living, that would make them relations, even if not by blood. Also, if the weasleys are decendants of slytherin, then Harry would be related to them this way too. Secondly, the quote where the word ancestor was used, while that is simply the stupidest mistake I can think of, it does seem to be a mistake. If Harry is Voldemort's dad, I still don't see how that makes Slytherin his descendant. Slytherin lived more than a thousand years ago, Voldemort was born about 70 years ago, and if Harry is his father, he can not be Slytherin's ancestor. Thirdly, can you immagine how many turns it would take on a time turner to take you back 70 years, not to mention taking you back far enough to be slytherin's ancestor? Lastly, if Ginny is Voldemort's mom, then why doesn't he have any weasley features? he doesn't look at all like a weasley, and why would he want to kill his mom in cos, which also brings up the question, if he couldn't kill his dad, how could he come so close to killing his mom? He grew stronger as she grew weaker, it would make more sence that he would also be erasing his life as she grew weaker. I am not saying this theory isn't good, just that i have problems with it. If you have anwsers to these questions, (especially the part about killing his mom) i would love to hear it. Jahanua From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri May 9 10:32:32 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 10:32:32 -0000 Subject: Addendum to my Diggory Grief post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57418 Darrin wrote: > > I just flipped through all of GoF leading up to the Goblet of Fire > > and in the chapters up through the first task, when there is a > > general easing of tension. >snip examples< > I found another one. Page 230, Seamus makes a comment about Diggory > not wanting to risk his good looks by entering the Tournament.. > Cedric, nor any other Hufflepuff, hears him. > > Then, a few paragraphs down, Seamus says to Angelina, "Better you > than Pretty Boy Diggory" which causes several Hufflepuffs passing the > table to scowl at him. Me(Linda): I have to say that I never saw the coments Seamus made about Cedric as being motivated by interhouse competition. I always thought that tit was more a reaction to his good looks; jealosy regarding how all the girls(including those from Gryffindor) swoon over him. Just my two knuts-Linda From elmindreda8558 at aol.com Fri May 9 10:32:55 2003 From: elmindreda8558 at aol.com (jahanua) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 10:32:55 -0000 Subject: Lifedebts (was:Freindship outside trio ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57419 > Erin wrote: In CoS, yes, Harry has to kill a big snake. But the actual act that > saves Ginny is the destruction of the diary. The means of > destruction- plunging the poisionous fang through it- is not > inherently dangerous to Harry. The only one that has credibility in my mind as a life debt is the last one, with Harry and Ginny, he did after all go into the chamber of secrets to save her, and he battled the basilisk to do so, the fang that he plunged into the diary had his blood on it, and he dueled Tom to save her too, all of which speaks of the danger he put himself in to save her. "Jahanua" From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri May 9 12:04:38 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:04:38 -0000 Subject: Sort me -- FILK! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57420 Monita wrote: > I am curious what the concensus on the semblance of Hogwarts House > qualities in posts might be? Hmmm. Now that you mention it, I can't think of any relationship between types of posts here on the list and the four Hogwarts Houses. We have FILKS, fanfic posts, shipping posts and TBAY posts (with or without acronyms). I have a hard time figuring out a link between those posting styles and Hogwarts Houses, except that fans of each type would probably wish to be sorted Gryffindor. ;-) But as we all join hands here on HPfGU and hum "Kumbaya" together, perhaps we should resolve to demonstrate our appreciation for the variety in posting styles by posting in a form we've never used before. For me, that would be a **FILK.** So here goes my very first (and most likely last) FILK: To Jennifer Lopez's (that's "J-Lo" to you opera fans) "Jenny From The Block." http://www.bellalopez.com/lyrics-timt2002.htm#jftb "Jo Row From The Block" Don't be fooled by the rocks that I got, I'm still (I'm still) Jo Row from the block, Used to have a little, now I have a *lot,* No matter where I go, I know where I came from, I'm just Jo Row from the block. >From "Philosopher's Stone" To "Goblet of Fire" >From the schoolbooks Right down to the wire, Headline clips I stay grounded As the morning sickness rolls in I promised you a manuscript, I'm real, Just like Mattie on Oprah (He's real...) That's just my mix I'm working on Book Six Don't hate on me Just pre-order, you'll see **************** Cindy -- who has now posted in all four posting styles (including acronyms) and who is wondering how many other listies can make that claim From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 9 12:24:01 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:24:01 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57421 Tom: > Tom (I) wrote earlier: > Granted, this isn't a rule, > but it's generally how they > behave. They're nice kids, > but they can be just as rude > and mean as the Slytherins > we see in canon. > Darrin (me? I? myself?) replied: > I think the Slyths outdo them. > When has a member of the Trio > openly called for genocide, > for instance? Or how about > beating up and stealing from > a weaker kid? (Leg-Locker and > Remembrall on Neville.) Or > participate in a potentially > fatal prank during a Quidditch > match? > > Tom responds: > Yeah, now we're talking! The Slytherins, I agree, *outdo* the > Gryffindors when it comes to clever insults, pranks, and general > antagonism. But by saying that the Slytherins outdo the Gryffindors, > there's a tacit acceptance of the fact that the Gryffindor's aren't > virginally white here, either. > Now me: Never said there Gryffs were saints, but the quote was "The Gryffs can be just as mean and rude as the Slyths," which I took exception to. > I don't see the trio calling for genocide, but I see Harry and Ron > and just about everyone else complacently accept house-elf slavery. > I see Ron buy into bigotry over the giants and werewolves fairly > easily. Ah, but who is the ONE person who stands against House-Elf Slavery? A Gryffindor, Hermione. And, if we are to believe that Dumbledore was a Gryffindor, which hasn't been confirmed, but certainly is the logical house, then it's D-Dore who sets what is probably a precedent in the Wizarding World by paying a House-Elf. As for Ron, his bigotry has always made me uncomfortable, but then I also realize that he has gotten past it. By the end of PoA and GoF, he certainly does not feel the same way about werewolves and giants that he did at the beginning of those books. > I don't see the trio bullying others, but I saw Hermione freeze up > Neville in PS/SS when he tried to stop them from breaking *more* > rules, and I saw Ron trash-talking Neville for absolutely no reason > in GoF. What was the GoF trash-talking? I don't recall that. As for Hermione freezing up Neville, yeah, that was a bit extreme. Of course, they COULD have spent the four hours it would have taken to explain, or dragged him with them. That would have been productive. But yeah, point taken. > As for pranks, well no dementor imitations, for sure, but I saw > Harry toss a firecracker into a cauldron full of Swelling Solution, > thereby splashing the entire class. I saw Harry and Ron first drug, > and then imitate Crabbe and Goyle, and then sneak into the Slytherin common room, which is a major violation. Don't want to beat a dead horse here, but what do you think Harry would do if he found out that Draco had figured out how to get into Gryffindor Tower? He'd be *livid.* I saw Harry take full advantage of his Invisibility cloak while he was at illegally at Hogsmeade to sling mud at Draco 'n friends in front of the Shrieking Shack. > Let's remove the slinging mud incident for a moment. I'll concede that was a stupid, mean thing to do. And Harry paid for it, by the way. Had he not done that, he probably would have made it back to school without getting caught. Sticking around to pester Malfoy was what got him caught. The other stuff, however, was all in CoS and all part of a larger plan. They wanted to find out who the Heir of Slytherin was, and suspected Draco. It has been said that it is wrong for the Trio to reflexively suspect Draco, but I pointed out that Draco, with his "you'll be next mudbloods," brought it on himself. Remember, one of the Trio IS a Muggle-born, and likely to be the next victim -- she's also the ringleader in this little stunt. > And I understand why they did these things, too. But just because I know why they did these things doesn't get them > off the hook - they still did them, and they were still wrongful > actions. Morality is not an arbitrary, 'it works this way for you > and this different way for me' kind-of thing, and that's how you're > applying it to this situation. You're saying that Gryffindors do bad stuff, but it's okay because they have good intentions and the > author paints them fondly. And that Slytherins do bad stuff, but > it's not okay because they don't and the author paints them > negatively. > > That's not how morality works. Morality is supposed to be a rigid > system, which applies equally across the board. So, Gryffindor isn't perfect. I like them - they're alright kids, and darned funny. But they aren't beyond reproach. > > This is where we fundamentally disagree, and may just have to agree to do so. I believe intentions have everything to do with actions and the legal system does allow aggravating and mitigating factors. Simply put, I believe breaking the rules to try to catch the Heir of Slytherin IS more morally justifiable than breaking the rules to try to help the Heir of Slytherin. Likewise with trying to protect the Philospher's Stone and with trying to help Sirius and Buckbeak. In all three cases, they are rewarded with points -- Dumbledore even says in CoS that he has to eat his words about them being on double- secret probation after the car flying incident -- and in PoA, do it with Dumbledore's sanction. Again, this doesn't excuse some of the things the Trio (and the rest of the Gryffs) do, but when you take away the rules they break in the process of the big resolution scenes at the end of all three of the first books, you're left with actions that the Gryffs, for the most part, are punished severely for. Tom: > > Furthermore, since we do not see enough of the Slytherins in canon, > other than their antagonism with the trio, I don't think that it's a tenable position to take, arguing that *no* Slytherin is decent. You> want to say something a little less extreme, like, "most of them > appear to be pretty mean" or something, then okay. But the > always/never/all-or-nothing arguments rarely work in the real world,and they won't work here in the fictional one either. > But again... we're still dealing with what is in canon. I agree that canon will be limited -- after all, the name of the series is Harry Potter, not Draco Malfoy -- but I look at canon and don't see a Slyth worthy of admiration. I HAVE been lax on defining what I am looking for, and you were right to call me on that. And frankly, maybe I'm expecting too much, but here goes. The doctrine of Slytherin is a doctrine of hate. Their founder left Hogwarts over a disagreement that basically boiled down to whether Hogwarts should be segregated. He left. Fair enough. Didn't like the way it was being run and took off. But then he left behind a Muggle-killing monster, with the idea that one of his descendants (or ancestors) would open the chamber and set it loose? Gahhh. The very nature of Slytherin is exclusionary, and, in terms of the wizard world, racist. The reaction to the word "mudblood" is similar to how our world reacts to other racial slurs. The only non pureblood we know of in Slytherin is Tom Riddle himself, and that is certainly outweighed by a) he's a direct descendant/ancestor of Slytherin himself and b) he has completely renounced everything Muggle. Their very PASSWORD - pureblood - speaks to this. So, what do I want? I want a Slytherin to renounce this garbage. That simple. Until that happens, they are tainted with what I consider racism, genocide and inflated superiority that I find disgusting. Decent was the wrong word. I'm sorry I let it go this long. > As for Slytherin compassion and decency, we have Snape. You don't > want to count him. Snape may very well be what I'm looking for, but we don't know why he turned. I'd love it if we find out he's not pureblood, or he rebelled against an order he was given. But - and I concede this may be a cover - his browbeating of Hermione, giving red meat to Draco and the "Muggle-borns suck" crowd, really tork me off every time. >We have the the Slytherins standing at the mention of Cedric's name at the end of GoF. You don't want to count that. Again, I keep coming back to them standing before they found he was murdered by V-Mort. But, OK, they stood. I concede that point. I've given you Pansy's concern for Draco, and you accepted it, > but then said that because Draco and the others milked it for what > it was worth, Pansy's concern didn't count anymore. I've given you > the Slytherin group's evident concern for Draco at dinner, and you > don't want to count that either because they were 'cooking up' their own version of the story. > > My point on that last one was twofold: one, that there were so > *many* Slytherins involved, which indicates that the group cares for > Draco. It wasn't just Crabbe, Goyle, and Pansy. It was a group. Two, that 'cooking up' a version isn't really a damnable thing to do, > unless you want to slam-dunk the trio for their chronic lies and > deceit as well. Which I don't, and I don't think that Slytherin > deserves it for doing what Gryffindor does all the time. Again, we're back to motives here, which we fundamentally disagree on. The Trio has never, despite all their hatred for Snape, cooked up lies to try to get him fired. They broke rules to try to catch him stealing the stone, when they thought it was him, but getting him fired was hardly their first goal. The actual huddling together indicates camraderie. Perhaps that is the better word and camraderie IS a good trait. But again, when it is employed in evil service, I do count it for less. Ditto for bravery and loyalty. Erwin Rommel was on of the most brilliant tank strategists the world has ever seen, but he was, first and foremost, a Nazi, helping spread hate to North Africa. > Or, are you trying to argue, as you allude at the end of your post, > that because "Good is good and bad is bad. Not everything has to be > grey," that therefore Gryffindor is Good and Slytherin is Bad? If > that's the case, then I can't agree, because I think that's an > overly simplistic view of things. IMHO, this is one of those cases > where the Slytherin students definitely fall into a grey area - > they're not out and out evil, and they're not sweet and perfectly > moral. > > And my point is that the yes, Slytherins are not perfectly moral, > but neither are the Gryffindors or anyone else. I don't see the Slyths falling into too many gray areas. The Gryffs, are perhaps less moral than given credit for, but I still, on the whole, don't see where the Slyths are MORE moral than given credit for. What am I trying to do? As I said earlier, I'm trying to keep this notion of "Gryffs and Slyths do the same thing" in perspective, because again, for me, the overarching characteristic of the Slytherins is the Pureblood Doctrine. And that is much worse than the other houses. Darrin -- Agree to Disagree. Not a bad band name. Probably all kinds of silly power ballads though. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 9 12:38:07 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 05:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030509123807.98460.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57422 --- Tom wrote: > I don't see the trio calling for genocide, but > I see Harry and Ron > and just about everyone else complacently > accept house-elf slavery. > I see Ron buy into bigotry over the giants and > werewolves fairly > easily. Lynn: Given the house-elves own thoughts on the matter, it's not surprising just about everyone else accepts house-elf slavery. Just look at how the house-elves reacted when Hermione tried telling them they shouldn't be enslaved. Harry, however, is just learning all about this. From all his questions to Dobby it could be inferred that he doesn't have a clue about house-elves. Yet, when he knows that there is a house-elf who is being mistreated and would rather be free, Harry does something about it. Let's also consider Dumbledore. When Dobby asks for wages, Dumbledore freely offers 10 galleons a week with weekends off. Dobby beats him down to 1 galleon a week with one day off a month. Dumbledore doesn't insist on other enslavement requirements and yet Dobby offers those freely (such as keeping secrets). The house-elves have lived this way for what I assume is centuries and to just cut them all loose would be very damaging to them. Winky is a good example of that. Until we know the history of how the elves got enslaved, I don't think we can say that it's completely wrong. Perhaps it's better to say they shouldn't be enslaved against their will. After all, we do have examples throughout history where some slaves preferred to remain slaves while others preferred freedom. As for Ron's prejudices, well, that's natural isn't it? Don't kids usually hold the prejudices of the adults they are around until they have an opportunity learn those prejudices are wrong? When faced with the reality, Ron is capable of seeing through the prejudice. Ron doesn't automatically write Hagrid off when he learns he's a giant, after all, and Ron does accept Lupin. Also, we have a kid from a pure-blood family who is incensed over the word Mudblood and accepts that being pureblood doesn't mean being better when others in the WW, including the Minister of Magic, appear to believe otherwise. To me, Ron has shown a willingness to see where his attitudes may be wrong and change them. > Tom wrote: > I'm simply pointing > out that Harry isn't a very likely candidate to > be giving the > Slytherins any benefit of the doubt. Lynn: Well, that's not exactly true. If Harry only imagined the worst of the Slytherins, when he saw them huddled together right after his Firebolt was revealed, Harry would have automatically assumed that the Slytherins were coming up with some plan to destroy it. Instead, he assumed they were talking about whether the broom really was a Firebolt, even after Draco's comment about dementors and parachutes. We have a pretty good idea now that the confab wasn't just confirming the Firebolt's existence given certain actions at the Quidditch match which followed. so, even though we know Harry's feelings of Draco & Co., he doesn't automatically assume they are up to no good. Tom wrote: >I've given you > the Slytherin group's evident concern for Draco > at dinner, and you > don't want to count that either because they > were 'cooking up' their > own version of the story. Lynn: Umm, could you tell me where you get that the group gathering at dinner was showing evident concern about Draco? Seems to me, if there had been such concern, the class would have followed Pansy up to see Draco rather than just head off to the dungeon. Gee, I'd have thought at least Crabbe and Goyle would have gone with her. We only have Harry's interpretation of the huddle which must be considered colored. Given that at this point we have no clue that Crabbe and Goyle had been to see Draco and Pansy is not described as part of the group, I see no evidence to suggest is was a great love fest of concern for Draco. It may have been, however, there is no evidence to support that. It may very well be the 'cooking up of a story' as well. In fact, Hermione appears to show more concern than the other Slytherins. We see Harry's lack of concern coming more from his knowledge of Madam Pomfrey's abilities. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Fri May 9 12:41:41 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:41:41 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jahanua" wrote: > how could he (LV) come so close to > killing his mom? (Ginny)(in COS) >He grew stronger as she grew weaker, it would make more sense that >he would also be erasing his life as she grew weaker. Jahanua, That is an excellent point! If Harry being the father of Tom Riddle could prevent him being able to kill Harry without killing himself then by the same token ditto his hypothetical Mother. Top canon! Now, how to answer that? ummmmmmm........................ Well I guess you can take your pick of these: 1 The theory still has credibility in terms of Harry but Ginny is out out out she is causing too many hiccups. 2 Perhaps, the attack on Ginny was a paradox of the continuum. The paradox that actually brings about the conception of Tom Riddle. Are we all a little guilty of diminishing the importance of Ginny's experience in the COS. If, without the pain, that Tom Riddle causes Ginny by his attack, there would be no relationship between his parents. It stands to reason that his attacking her would actually back up his existence. Time is a fine feathery wisp.......... Valky dum-de-dum ....I wonder what Hermione would say. If I asked her how old is the Grey Lady's Ghost? ................ now where did I put my copy of Hogwart's a History.....Darn it....Where is that book...............dum-de-dum ..................... From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri May 9 12:58:39 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:58:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade AND the uses of Dementors In-Reply-To: <000001c315bd$99520f40$00570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Frankly, I can't see why Hogwarts students need parental/guardian > permission to go to Hogsmeade. We're talking (as nearly as I can > tell) about a fairly typical Scottish village that happens to be > all-magical-folk, NOT Patpong Road, the Amsterdam red-light > district, or the Reeperbahn. (Not that Hogwarts students would be > interested in such goings-on...they're sweet, pure, chaste, > virginal, demure, and disgusted by such things. At least, that's > the Party line and I'm sticking to it.) Parental permission is required in the UK for any organised children's activities where parents or guardians are not present. Unsupervised visits to a nearby village would *certainly* require permission from parents/guardian. I notice that there are generally teachers around in the pub (PoA and GoF). The students probably aren't quite as 'unsupervised' as they think. [grin] > For that matter, it was quite a jump for the MoM to _assume_ > instantly that Sirius Black was after Harry Potter > specifically. "He's at Hogwarts?" That could refer to _anybody_ > who is currently "at Hogwarts" in any capacity. I think this is probably background knowledge we don't really have. Harry is important enough to be 'protected' at the Dursley's. Harry is important enough to have Hagrid sent especially, to ensure his enrollment at Hogwarts. Harry is important enough to get away with stuff that would get lesser pupils expelled. Harry is important enough that Fudge knows his name, chats with him on one-to-one terms, and ignores the latest use of unlicenced magic. I doubt this huge importance is purely due to his *historical* importance as the Boy Who Lived. I suspect that while Harry doesn't know it, the immediate assumption is that there is only one person at Hogwarts important enough to cause a Death Eater to make a desperate jail break. But, of course, you're right, Eric. [grin] The MoM were jumping to a wrong conclusion. Sirius Black wasn't after Harry at all. > Putting Dementors around Hogwarts, after the Dementors had slipped > up already and let SB get loose somehow, is yet another > example...I'd have used Aurors, who can tell the difference > between a student and an escaped convict, and aren't too likely > to try to suck anybody's soul out of them. Ah, aurors. Well they have one inconvenient quality. Unlike Dementors who can be relied on to 'shoot first, ask questions later', aurors (like Moody) might actually bring in Sirius Black alive. They might even make inconvenient requests that he be questioned, because he has this odd story about not being the Secret Keeper... something about a rat ... [see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 ] I argued in that post that Dumbledore doesn't want Sirius to prove his innocence, because it's too dangerous to Harry. It's also possible that there are DE's in the Ministry [there are definitely DE's in the Ministry ] who CERTAINLY don't want Sirius to prove his innocence. That a Sirius Black handed over to Ministry 'justice' has absolutely no chance at all. Not even if Dumbledore, Pettigrew, Harry, Lupin, and an entire choir of angels were to give evidence for him. So the difference between the good guys and the bad guys is that the good guys at least want Sirius alive, hopefully until the day when a fair court *will* accept evidence about his innocence. The bad guys want him dead, as the 'obvious' betrayer of the Potters. And no inconvenient questions about who actually did betray the Potters. And Fudge authorised the use of Dementors, huh? Just like he did with another inconvenient witness, maybe? If Fudge had got his way, neither Black or Crouch Jr. would have been available to give evidence. Handy things, Dementors. Pip!Squeak From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri May 9 13:04:06 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 13:04:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's Jaunt to Hogsmeade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57425 Marianne wrote > > Just why wasn't there a contingent of Aurors at Hogswarts? Who was > > around to control the Dementors if they got out of hand, other than > > the professors? What kind of Ministry simply dumps a bunch of soul- > > suckers around a school, apparently with no one charged with > > controlling them? And Valky replied: > I have posted a reply to this particular question up thread. > Basically how many Aurors do we actually know of in existence, by the > end of book four? Why, so few mentioned alive and so many mentioned > as victims of the DE during the darker times and soon after. I would > say the MOM simply had a lot less faith in Aurors to handle Lord > Voldemorts followers. However that their numbers may be larger than I > have assumed. I suppose there could have been an increase in the Auror contingent during Voldemort War 1. But, I don't think that we can assume they all disappeared or died or retired afterwards. My guess is that the reason we don't hear about how many are around now is that it hasn't been pertinent to the story. And, since the Dark Arts still exist, I'd think there would have to be some Auror force around. Maybe it's a smaller force because the Ministry doesn't see the same level of threat that existed during the War, but I think they've got to have some Aurors. > On the other hand the Dementors had kept the infamous Black quite > contained for upwards of a decade. Dementors, therefore, stand out as > the more competent protection against Death eaters than Aurors. I definitely don't agree with that. Why have Aurors at all, if the DEs can be better dealt with by Dementors? They may be better jailers, simply because of the mental and emotional torment they inflict, thus draining wizards of their magical abilities and making it hard for them to fight back, but they seem too single-minded to be an effective fighting force against the DEs. A good Patronus can chase them off. Fudge > of course fears more for his own life than for Harry's. So > endangering the students of Hogwarts is an elementary risk as far as > he is concerned to protect the wizard world from the "treacherous" > Sirius Black. Easy equation. Yes, Fudge is a pill, isn't he? Using the Dementors was probably announced with great fanfare. Fudge could have used that to say, "See? I am not afraid to use whatever weapon I have to hunt down Sirius Black." And that also conveniently serves to put in people's minds that "Wow - if the MoM is bringing Dementors over from Azkaban, then it must mean that Black guy is a very powerful dark wizard. No wonder he figured out a way to escape. The Ministry did a good job keeping him locked up for as long as they did!" Marianne who can't decide if Fudge is Evil or just criminally political From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 9 13:12:50 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 06:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030509131250.64830.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57426 --- Tom wrote: > Let's try a slightly different tack when > have we seen anyone in > > *any* of the other houses do anything decent, > aside from Cedric's > > clear decency and fair-play over the > Triwizard Tournament in GoF? > Darrin wrote: > Lynn: The first thing that came to my mind when asked about someone from another House acting decently was Cho, but not for letting Harry down easily. It was after the Skeeter article and Harry was being harassed about all his crying. Cho calls to him and he yells at her. She could have just blown him off, instead, she tells him why she called to him and then wishes him good luck with the task. That to me was a really decent thing to do. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Fri May 9 13:18:04 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 13:18:04 -0000 Subject: Petunia is not a muggle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57427 I am posting a lot lately aren't I. THe likeness of Filch's jealousy toward Hogwarts students and Petunia's attitude to her sister is uncanny isn't it. Maybe Petunia is not a muggle at all. Has Harry ever met or been told anything about his grandparents? Valky From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Fri May 9 12:53:28 2003 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:53:28 -0000 Subject: James Potter Dead???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57428 "peggybaratto" wrote: > According to Galadrial Waters (Wizarding World Press' Ultimate > Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter: Analysis of Books > 1-4) (yes, I've heard many complaints about this book, but...), > she belives the real Lupin is dead. James and he took an extra > precausion because and performed a switching spell. If this is true, > James is Lupin still! I have to say that this is my least favorite theory, mainly because of the sickly light it throws on James. I just cannot believe that James would willingly sacrifice his friend merely to stay alive himself. After all, he would have had no way of knowing that Harry would survive Voldemort's Avada Kedavra curse, and here's why: Yes, one could argue that there exists a prophecy of Prof. Trelawney's that we assume is about Harry (and possibly James since Lily did not need to die). However, it is likely that Voldemort knew about the prophecy as well since we know that Peter Pettigrew was feeding secrets to him. Since the "old gang" were working so tirelessly to *protect* the Potters, I think it is highly unlikely that they knew that Harry would *survive* the curse. And this would be the crux of the matter. James would have had to *know* that his son would survive in order even to contemplate switching bodies with Lupin. Even still, I feel certain that he would rather die trying to save his friend *and* his family rather than exist beyond them. Just a few thoughts.... karenoc1 From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 9 13:42:13 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 13:42:13 -0000 Subject: Petunia is not a muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Monita" wrote: > I am posting a lot lately aren't I. > > > THe likeness of Filch's jealousy toward Hogwarts students and > Petunia's attitude to her sister is uncanny isn't it. Maybe Petunia > is not a muggle at all. Has Harry ever met or been told anything > about his grandparents? > > Valky I've heard the "Petunia is a Squib" theory before and I think there is some evidence against it. Furthermore, I would hate it to happen. First, the evidence. pg 44 PS UK "... (Lily) came home every holiday with her pockets full of frog- spawn, turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was -- a freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the famiy." - Aunt Petunia. 1) Aunt Petunia referring to Lily as a "freak" when, to be a Squib, she'd have had to be surrounded by witches and wizards, doesn't fit. 2) Their parents, should they be a witch and wizard themselves, would hardly be full of exaggerated pride over having a witch daughter. It would be expected, no? Now, why I would hate it. I don't want Harry to be Pureblood. That simple. The great dividing line between the conflicts between good and evil, Voldemort and Dumbledore, Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin, Harry and Draco, Arthur and Lucius, is the attitudes toward Muggle- Borns. I believe this to be a tale, at its core, about a form of racism. Does Harry being a pureblood make him less heroic? No, but I think the anti-racism message is much stronger if Harry is part-Muggle. Please note. I am defining "pureblood" as I believe the Slytherins define it, meaning unbroken descent from wizards and witches. Technically, Harry IS pureblood in that Lily was a witch and James was a wizard, but, if Lily's parents were Muggles, then he descends from Muggles on his mother's side. (Riddle refers to him as half- Muggle at one point, but wouldn't it be more like quarter-Muggle?) Darrin -- Quarter Muggle. Would that be called a Muggle Royale in France? From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Fri May 9 13:49:50 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 13:49:50 -0000 Subject: Petunia is not a muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Monita" > wrote: > > I am posting a lot lately aren't I. > > THe likeness of Filch's jealousy toward Hogwarts students and > > Petunia's attitude to her sister is uncanny isn't it. Maybe >Petunia is not a muggle at all. Has Harry ever met or been told >anything > > about his grandparents? Darrin replied: > Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the > famiy." - Aunt Petunia. Me: Thanks for reminding me of this canon. Although the story intrigued me, it just didnt ring true and I couldnt remember why. I am satisfied that this is just a rumour now. Valky From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 9 14:04:22 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:04:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia is not a muggle? References: Message-ID: <001401c31633$e9443390$105b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57431 Darrin -- Quarter Muggle. Would that be called a Muggle Royale in France? Nah, it would be called Le Muggle Royale :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 9 14:12:26 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ... In-Reply-To: <003101c315d7$b5199350$67cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030509141226.69322.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57432 --- Kelly wrote: > > Darrin wrote: > > But again, I do think there is a difference > between suggesting to > > someone a way they can fall into a trap and > dressing up as a dementor > > to try and make someone fall off a broom. > > Kelly replied: > Only a little bit of difference. Lynn: I respectfully disagree that there is only a little bit of difference between the two incidents. To me, there is a huge difference. In the first instance, Snape was able to make a choice for himself, does he follow Lupin or doesn't he. If Snape sees Lupin go to the Whomping Willow, he obviously sees that Lupin is accompanied by Madam Pomfrey so he has to know that whatever is happening is sanctioned by the administration and Lupin isn't doing anything wrong. Snape makes the decision to put himself in what turns out to be a potentially dangerous position. Besides, I totally agree with how stupid could Snape be to listen to Sirius? If someone with whom I had a mutual hatred society suddenly becomes helpful, I'd sure smell a trap. You'd think someone as suspicious as Snape would have but it was his curiosity and his desire to hurt other people (find out something bad about Lupin, hoping to find something that could get people expelled) that got him caught in this trap. Snape willing walked into the trap. I also get the impression that Sirius just didn't think things through. If he really wanted something bad to happen to Snape, he would never have told anyone what he did. Rather, it seems he thought of it more as a joke he was playing on someone and shared that joke with people. Not that I think it excuses him in the least, it was a potentially deadly joke, but I get the impression it wasn't as much to harm Snape as it was to get back at Snape for all that skulking around trying to get them expelled. On the other hand, Harry is having a potentially dangerous situation thrust upon him with no warning. Harry isn't given a choice whether or not to put himself into this position. Draco & Co. believed, based on what they knew of the last Quidditch game, that what they were doing would definitely cause physical harm to Harry and did it purposely to cause that harm. Yep, to me there is a huge difference in the two pranks. Kelly wrote: > Poor Cedric took so much crap from > the Gryffindors that > > entire year because the Hufflepuffs beat them > at Quidditch the > > previous year. > > > > The spiteful side of me hopes that those > people who gave him crap > > that year feel really bad now. Lynn: Umm, I'm with Darrin, what crap did poor Cedric take from the Gryffindors? Where do we learn that poor Cedric was constantly tormented by the Gryffindors for something he had no control over? Where are all the Support Harry Potter, Diggory Sucks buttons? The spiteful side of me hopes that all those who gave Harry so much crap are feeling really bad when they realize that Harry helped Cedric in the maze twice even though not helping him would have meant Harry would be champion, that Harry could have taken the cup all by himself but instead was willing to make it a combined Hogwarts victory, that Harry risked his own life to return Cedric to Hogwarts, that they allowed themselves to either be led or encouraged by a group of people (Draco & Co.) who seem cavalier about Cedric's death and are looking forward to their own deaths for either being Muggle-born or Muggle-lovers. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 9 14:17:46 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:17:46 -0000 Subject: JKR Said it's Descendant, not Ancestor (WAS: Tom Riddle's Origins) In-Reply-To: <3EBACE32.6A8C66F9@colfax.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57433 Lissa wrote: > I don't think this is a contradiction. Dumbledore doesn't > say "only" remaining ancestor of Slytherin, he very carefully uses > the word "last". I do think, though, that there might be > something up with Dumbledore's use of the word ancestor rather than > descendant in that passage. Now me: In an October 2000 Scholastic interview, JKR admitted to making a mistake by using "ancestor" instead of "descendant:" Q (from HPfGU!): "Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin?" JKR: "Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read 'descendent.' That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the 'ancestor' one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!)" and the link: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm British HPfGU listees have clarified that JKR's use of the phrase "deliberate error" is intended to signify her admission that she unintentionally goofed and is now owning up to her error, rather than that she intentionally tried to mislead her readers. When I posted this quote, I used the term "descendant" because I was quoting from a recent UK adult edition CoS paperback. While the more recent UK editions have corrected this error, the more recent US versions unfortunately have not, which has continued to perpetuate this confusion. ~Phyllis From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 9 14:05:09 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:05:09 -0000 Subject: Echoes (was Re: James Potter Dead????) In-Reply-To: <002201c315d3$99a7a750$1fa0cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > peggybaratto wrote: > Not too long after all the "You heard James?" etc. from Lupin, in > his next antidementor lesson, Harry asks about what's under a > dementors hood. Lupin procedes to tell him no one really knows > who can actually say, but then says they must have a mouth because > the jaws are clamped over the mouth to suck out the soul. Would > it then be possible to return that soul to another body? Could two > souls be switched and live on in different bodies? Oh, yuck, dementor vomit (possibly a good band name?). But if my soul were already, say, partially digested, I'm not sure I'd want it back. But then I'd be thinking about it in a partially digested state. Uh-oh, this may give me something like a time travel headache... Incidentally, the whole concept of James, Lily, and Cedric being "echoes" when the re-emerge from Voldemort's wand perplexes me. "Ghosts" really does seem closer to accurate. After all, can echoes recognize present circumstances? ("Harry, son, good to see you!") Can they make requests? (Hey, Harry, would you mind dragging my body back with you so it doesn't have to fester in this stinking graveyard?") And when they subsequently disappear (Lily or James says they won't be around for long), where do they go? Do they just dissipate? Do they go back into Voldemort's want? If the latter, can they be summoned again? Ersatz Harry, who wonders what happens when an echo gets hold of a time turner From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Fri May 9 15:18:13 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:18:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030508144631.00e906f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <739A74DD-8231-11D7-9F85-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57435 On Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 09:01 AM, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > If it is OK for Harry to do a certain thing, then it must also be OK > for Draco to do that exact same thing. Likewise if it wrong for > Draco to do a thing, then it must also be wrong for Harry to do > that exact same thing - anything else is hypocricy.... > ...As far as I am concerned there is no way of formulating an > ethical principle that allows Harry to do something and > doesn't allow Draco to do the exact same thing. This view of assessing right and wrong is simply too simplistic (hmmmmm :-). The assessment of whether an action is right or wrong just isn't that straight forward. Lying, for instance, is sometimes an immoral thing to do, sometimes morally neutral (white lies, etc.), and sometimes (albeit rarely) lying is the morally right thing to do. This is the case with all ethically questionable actions to a greater or lesser extent--even the killing another human, in rare instances, is morally right. So you can't just flatly say that an action is always right or wrong for everyone in all situations. > The only way to distinguish is to point out that Harry (usually) > does things we agree with, while Draco normally does things we > don't agree with Hardly. The distinction is that Harry's actions are not intended to harm other people, while Draco's usually are. /That's/ why we usually agree with Harry and disagree with Draco. Harry is good-hearted and considerate of the feelings and well-being of others. Draco is mean and contemptuous of others and seems to actually take pleasure is hurting and disgracing others. In the case of the school rules, it's not a question of it being right for Harry to break a rule but wrong for Draco to break the same rule. As a general rule, it is usually wrong but sometimes right for /anyone/ to break the rules--be it Harry, Draco, or anyone else. It's a question of whether the breaking of a school rule is /excusable/ in a /particular situation/ due to particular circumstances and the particular motives and reasons involved in the decision to break the rules. When harry sneaks around at night just for the fun of it, or because he's being mischievous, then if he is caught there is no reason why that breaking of the rule should be excused. But when he disobeys a teacher's orders in order to save Hermione from a troll, that breaking of a rule is excusable. (Granted he should have just told the teachers that she was in the bathroom, but that's another issue--stupidity on his part :-) Similarly, when Draco breaks the rules and puts hexes on other students (such as the hex he put on Neville as a mean joke) then if he is caught, that breaking of the rules should not be excused. But if Draco actually did something nice for someone (I can't imagine that), but happened to break a rule in the process, then that should be excused. This is the way it is in real life. In school, if you are caught breaking a rule, a teacher might preface the discussion with something like: "You'd better have a /very/ good reason for...". Parents do the same thing. I teach my sons that hurting other people is wrong, and if I saw one of them maliciously hit (or hurt in any way) another child, I'd punish him in some way because he would be wrong for doing so. But if my son saw some bully beating up another kid and decided to step in and knocked the bully off his %&$, then I can't see myself punishing him for that. And it's the same with the law. If I shoot a man, it will be investigated and I will have to appear in court. When I explain that I shot him because he broke into my house with a gun and was threatening my life and the lives of my wife and children, then my breaking of the law is excused. (No, I haven't been in that situation, I'm happy to say ;-) The only times that Harry's rule-breaking is excused are when he does have a very good reason for breaking them. If Draco broke a rule and had a good reason for breaking it, his breaking of the rule would be excused too. --Dan From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 9 16:22:08 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 16:22:08 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins/Multiple Riddles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57436 Riiiight (snaps on a pair of rubber gloves). WHY WHY WHY does everyone assume that the dead women identified as "Mrs Riddle" is Voldemort's mother? READ. LOOK. GoF (UK paperback) p7-8. ...a maid had entered the house to find all three Riddles dead. ...Elderly Mr and Mrs Riddle had been rich, snobbish and rude, and their grown up son Tom even more so. CoS (UK paperback) - p231 "You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common Muggle who abandoned me before I was born, just because he found out his wife was a witch?" - p182 "My mother died just after I was born, sir. They told me at the orphanage that she lived just long enough to name me Tom after my father..." RIGHT. So, we have now established a) that Preggers!Ginny is not a plausible solution, as the Weasleys are certainly not Slytherin's heirs. Ditto Hermione, before you all start. b) Tom Riddle(hereafter referred to as LV, before it all gets confusing) did not kill his mother. She was already dead. c) The "grown up son" is not necessarily Voldemort/Riddle, as he was abandoned by his father. "Their" son, remember. First wife is dead. As Riddle remarried, and blanked out all traces of previous wife/child, isn't it possible that he would restart the tradition of naming the eldest son after the father, effectively erasing LV? If not, then "grown-up son LV" must have done a lot of grovelling to get back in with the family. The villagers seem to know him quite well, so he must have been around for some time. Now, two other points occur to me. d) A *teenage* boy was seen near the Riddle house on the day of the murder. If my theory is correct, the second Tom Riddle, already grown-up, should be younger than the first, not older. Therefore, if this teenage boy is the young LV, and not a time-travelling Harry, then some other kind of time-slip must have happened (can the time- turner go forward too, do we think?) e)Of course Harry isn't LV's father. LV has to take "bone of the father" in orderto come back to life, and he takes it from *Tom Riddle*'s grave. I'd imagine these big important spells would require exact ingrediants, ie the correct DNA. Kirstini, feeling rather feisty today. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri May 9 16:27:27 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 16:27:27 -0000 Subject: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57437 Hey, Hey, I was flipping through the polls, and I noticed the poll about which book everyone likes best. Right now, the results are: PS/SS -- 42 votes, 4.11% CoS -- 42 votes, 4.11% PoA -- 573 votes, 56.12% GoF -- 364 votes, 35.65% Not much to argue about there -- PoA rules! ;-) I couldn't help but notice, however, that the exact same number of people prefer PS/SS and CoS. Hmmmm. Very interesting, that. I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that causes people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. And, uh, what is it that makes either of those two more enjoyable than PoA? Opinions? Cindy -- noting that CoS used to be behind PS/SS but seems to have surged following the release of the movie From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri May 9 15:29:19 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 15:29:19 -0000 Subject: Echoes (was Re: James Potter Dead????) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57438 Ersatz Harry wrote: > Incidentally, the whole concept of James, Lily, and Cedric being > "echoes" when the re-emerge from Voldemort's wand perplexes me. > And when they subsequently disappear (Lily or James says > they won't be around for long), where do they go? Do they just > dissipate? Do they go back into Voldemort's want? If the latter, can > they be summoned again? Me(Linda): Interesting point. I actually like the idea of them returming to the wand. You may have stumbled upon a very important future plot twist. It would make it possible for Harry to defeat Voldemort with his parents help. Yes indeed. I like this a lot. -Linda , who really needs to get some work done From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri May 9 17:46:23 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:46:23 -0000 Subject: Harry the House Elf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Peter" wrote: >>> I will say this. All (4) books Harry has been carrying around those dirty socks that Dursley gave him - I always thought that was curious though they came in handy when it came to the "sneak-a- scope", but didnt't he pass them on to Dobby? Does he have any Dursley clothing left? With him at school that is??<<< I don't think that there is any evidence either way. Harry is obviously very aware of his "old baggy clothes" forced on him by the Dursleys, so that it is possible that away from them he has bought a whole wardrobe of new clothes to wear. However, I'm inclined to think that Harry is not very materialistic or self-aware, so that providing the offending articles weren't on view he would continue wearing them. I don't think that the ancient protection surrounding Harry is exclusively the Dursleys cast-off clothes, but I do wonder if Harry is somehow indentured to them and that the clothes play a binding factor. The contract would be voided and Harry would be "freed" if the Dursleys were to give him new clothes. Whilst he is in their "care" he is protected, but that protection would disappear if they were to buy clothes especially for him. I do not believe that Harry's protection dies the minute he is away from the Dursleys. I do believe though that it becomes weaker. It would have been at its weakest at the end of the school year - which just happens to be when Voldemort struck in GoF; perhaps this is no coincidence. Ali From dicentra at xmission.com Fri May 9 17:24:15 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:24:15 -0000 Subject: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that causes > people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. I'm a 3, 4, 2, 1 myself [Books in order of preference]. I like CoS better than PS/SS for the following reasons: I was actually rather underwhelmed when reading Book 1. Maybe it was all the hoopla (I didn't read it until Summer 2001), but I found it almost clich?, especially the ending. What? He was protected by Mother Love? Boy, that's a new one! And they went through a gauntlet of tests. Yawn! I did think that the Letters from No One segment was especially creative, and some of the other little details seemed rather droll, but overall it seemed like Just Another Kids' Book -- not a bad one, surely, but not something to write home about. Then I read Book 2 and found more to like. I thought that Moaning Myrtle and Tom Riddle's Diary were spectacularly creative devices. A ghost that hangs out in the U-bend of a toilet? Cool! A book that writes back? Way cool! The ending seemed a little underwhelming again (defeats the monster; yawn!), but the plot was exceptionally tight -- no extraneous material, no loose ends. Rereading has confirmed that impression. Book 3 I like for its unforgettable scenes: Shrieking Shack, Snape Busts Harry, Snape Subs for Lupin, The Boggart Lesson, Harry Meets Prongs, Harry Learns Expecto Patronum, Eavesdropping at the Three Broomsticks, Grim at the Quidditch Match, Sirius Awakens Ron, Buckbeak Escapes Execution (with Dumbledore Amused By It All), The Boys Dis Hermione, Stan and His Accent... it goes on and on. Book 4 is stuffed full of fascinating thematic material: Memory, Parricide, Loyalty (misplaced and otherwise), Fame, Betrayal, Romance (and the lack thereof), Murder, Denial, Injustice, Slavery... shoot, there's a ton of stuff in the Crouch Family Saga alone. (See 47927 for Elkins's Crouch Family Novenna.) --Dicentra, dying to see where Book 5 will rate From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 9 19:08:27 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:08:27 -0000 Subject: Expulsion in Perspective. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57441 There is a long thread (or two) on the likelihood or more accurately the UN-likelihood of Harry being expelled. Many people are saying that Harry is allowed to get away with a great deal of rule breaking without suffering the consequences that have been implied simply because he is Harry Potter. While that is true to a limited extent, as is seen in the example of Fudge meeting Harry at the Leaky Cauldron after Harry blew up his Aunt and ran away from home. In this case, there are extenuating circumstances (Sirius Black is assumed to be trying to kill Harry) which makes overlooking a situation that has already been remedied (Aunt Marge has been deflated and her memory modified) an easy and reasonable thing to do. I think many significant people in the wizard world are aware that not only is Harry 'The Boy Who Lived', but he is also the boy who must continue to live because the has a destiny that must be fulfilled; a destiny upon which the fate of the wizard world hangs. So this is an example of Harry getting off simply because he is Harry. Although, I think other young wizards would be forgiven for having commited similar offense; it was accidental afterall. But they would not have gotten the personal attention and resources that Harry did. Now let's talk about school. School discipline is mostly a bluff. The biggest bluff, which will have the most meaning to US educated students, is 'your permanent record' (cue spooky organ music). When you are a bad boy (or girl) in school, you are constantly threatened with the infraction of the rules of the moment going on your permanent record. Which carries the implication that your whole future will be ruined, and this black mark on your character will haunt you forever. Just one problem, virtually no prospective school or employer has ever checked or lent any weight to a students elementary school or high school permanent record. It's a bluff. Suspension and expulsion are the same way, their use is threadened as a controlling tool far more often than they are actually implimented. Usually, you will get several second chances, and it will usually take a extreme breach of the rules to actually get suspended or expelled. Again, up to a point, it is a bluff. So, I see the situations in which Harry expected to get expelled but didn't, not as favoritism, but as the normal mechanics of school intimidation, control, and punishment. It would take an overwhelmingly serious and inexcusable breach of the rules for Harry (or Ron) to actually get expelled. The teachers play this bluff with extreme skill making it seem like Harry narrowly escaped explusion, and therefore continuing and re-enforcing the belief that expulsion actually was possible. Harry comes away from the incident never wanting to press his luck that far again which is exactly the effect the teachers wanted. In a sense, a students fear of explusion is a greater tool than expulsion itself. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From sl010c0016 at blueyonder.co.uk Fri May 9 17:27:53 2003 From: sl010c0016 at blueyonder.co.uk (stephen) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:27:53 -0000 Subject: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." wrote: > Hey, > > I was flipping through the polls, and I noticed the poll about which > book everyone likes best. Right now, the results are: > > > PS/SS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > CoS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > PoA -- 573 votes, 56.12% > GoF -- 364 votes, 35.65% > > Not much to argue about there -- PoA rules! ;-) > > I couldn't help but notice, however, that the exact same number of > people prefer PS/SS and CoS. Hmmmm. Very interesting, that. > I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that causes > people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. And, uh, what is it > that makes either of those two more enjoyable than PoA? > > Opinions? > > Cindy -- noting that CoS used to be behind PS/SS but seems to have > surged following the release of the movie I Think the movie did it for me Cindy. Prefer PoA to either but CoS wins over PS/SS because of recent film and it was a slightly more mature read for us adults. Stephen. From grlndgz at earthlink.net Fri May 9 17:48:42 2003 From: grlndgz at earthlink.net (grlndgz) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:48:42 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins/Multiple Riddles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57443 Kirstini wrote: > Riiiight (snaps on a pair of rubber gloves). WHY WHY WHY does > everyone assume that the dead women identified as "Mrs Riddle" is > Voldemort's mother? READ. LOOK. > GoF (UK paperback) p7-8. > ...a maid had entered the house to find all three Riddles dead. > ...Elderly Mr and Mrs Riddle had been rich, snobbish and > rude, and their grown up son Tom even more so. > > Now, two other points occur to me. > d) A *teenage* boy was seen near the Riddle house on the day of the > murder. If my theory is correct, the second Tom Riddle, already > grown-up, should be younger than the first, not older. Therefore, if > this teenage boy is the young LV, and not a time-travelling Harry, > then some other kind of time-slip must have happened (can the time- > turner go forward too, do we think?) Hmm. I always figured that the grown-up-son Tom was LV's dad, the elderly folks his grand-parents, and the teen-ager LV himself. amy From u3232865 at student.anu.edu.au Fri May 9 17:57:14 2003 From: u3232865 at student.anu.edu.au (colbernays) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:57:14 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins/Multiple Riddles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57444 > c) The "grown up son" is not necessarily Voldemort/Riddle, as he was > abandoned by his father. "Their" son, remember. First wife is dead. > As Riddle remarried, and blanked out all traces of previous > wife/child, isn't it possible that he would restart the tradition of > naming the eldest son after the father, effectively erasing LV? If > not, then "grown-up son LV" must have done a lot of grovelling to > get back in with the family. The villagers seem to know him quite > well, so he must have been around for some time. > > Now, two other points occur to me. 'Grown up son' is most certaintly not LV, cos he's dead. As I understand it the 'grown up son' is LV's father, and 'Mr & Mrs Riddle' are LV's grand parents. (Apparently after dumping his wife Tom Riddle moved back in with mum and dad). > d) A *teenage* boy was seen near the Riddle house on the day of the > murder. If my theory is correct, the second Tom Riddle, already > grown-up, should be younger than the first, not older. Therefore, if > this teenage boy is the young LV, and not a time-travelling Harry, > then some other kind of time-slip must have happened (can the time- > turner go forward too, do we think?) This event happened 'half a century ago', i.e. when LV was on holiday from Hogwarts, and does not kill his half brother, but his father as said above. > e)Of course Harry isn't LV's father. LV has to take "bone of the > father" in orderto come back to life, and he takes it from *Tom > Riddle*'s grave. I'd imagine these big important spells would > require exact ingrediants, ie the correct DNA. > As mentioned in another post Voldie would now have blood of his father and bone of his enemy instead of viceversa, so would have some dna of dad, so maybe could work. Col :) From lissbell at colfax.com Fri May 9 18:54:17 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 11:54:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins References: Message-ID: <3EBBF959.33E3AE88@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57445 Rosebeth wrote: > This brings more questions to mind. Why does she go back? Does she know > she's pregnant before she goes and that Harry's the father? Why wouldn't > she leave a more obvious clue that Harry is the father? I'm sure there are > more, but it's late. Lissa replied: These are all good questions to which I have no answers. Assuming my theory proves true, I'm looking forward to finding them out myself. The issue that most intrigues me is whether Ginny willfully chooses to play a role in creating Lord Voldemort or is simply tricked into this unlucky fate. Both possibilities trouble me. She's been made into a helpless victim once. Making her one again might be realistic, but it isn't flattering. On the other hand, it's not exactly a testament to feminine wisdom if she deliberately sets Voldemort's history into place. Rosebeth wrote: > I have no evidence for this, but it seems to me that Harry is being set up > to bring down LV. Lissa replied: I think the novels have led us to expect that Harry will defeat Voldemort, but I wouldn't be personally disappointed in Harry if he couldn't bring himself to kill his son--assuming I'm not dead wrong and that's who Voldemort is. Cheers, Lissa From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri May 9 19:37:29 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:37:29 -0000 Subject: The Diary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57446 Valky wrote: > Ok, Maria you have succeeded in animating me :) I think i will take > up your gauntlet and have a little wield about, to see if I can't > edge your perspective on these things a little closer to mine. Maria: Actually, upon reading your post and thinking things over a bit, I've come to the conclusion that we don't really disagree at all. Well, maybe a bit over the little things. Namely, Harry. > I am not, per se, "sure" that Dobby wasn't baited by Mr Malfoy. Thus > causing his pursual of Harry. In fact I am willing to concede that it > is very likely that he was. Although,.. what is your take on that? > Did he bait Dobby to keep Harry away from Hogwarts during that year > or was that an unplanned anomaly? > Honestly, I dont believe that Lucius wanted Harry to be absent during > the opening of the Chamber, and, failing any faith in a possibility > of Lucius making such an early blunder in his plot, as to have his > elf almost prevent Harry attending Hogwarts at all............... > I would have to say that two large loopholes just appeared in this > other wise applicable argument. My take? I also can't see why Lucius would feel the need to trick Dobby into warning Harry about his "plans" for Hogwarts. If anything, Harry would die, which wouldn't grieve Lucius, I'm sure. OTOH, I can easily imagine *Draco* having a little joke and feeding Dobby this tidbit of information in hopes of scaring Harry away from the school. Do I believe it? Maybe, but I don't think it matters at all. > We haven't seen a cunning Lucius? > Was it not his cunning that had him placed as the Head of Hogwarts > school? > I see absolutely no reason to believe he has used his power as a > Wizard to get him anything, anywhere. I have, however, on numerous > occassions, observed that Lucius is notorious for his use of trickery > and foul play, to make things happen his way in the WW. > He bribes and blackmails his way in to positions of power and > influence. I'm afraid that I've been careless with word choice and confused you. When I said "power" in my previous post I meant his political power and influence, as well as his position in WW society. IMO the fact that he's the head of the Board of Governors (not Head of Hogwarts) speaks more of Lucius's wealth and political influence than of his cunning. Lucius's "trickery and foul play" can be called cunning only if no one is really aware of the fact that he's doing it. I mean, a cunning person at least *tries* to be discreet about it, no? Everyone, OTOH, as you say, is aware that Lucius is doing all those things. But I suppose he's cunning. He's a Slytherin, after all. But it amazes me that everyone *knows* the man is a DE, and Voldemort *still* calls him "my slippery friend." I guess we disagree about definitions. > It is reasonable to say, we havent seen him use magic yet so how can > we judge? However, there has been at least one occassion in the books > where he could have used magic, but, appeared to run like a coward. > One would be at the resolution of COS, when Dobby threatened to use > magic on him. Did he attempt to continue, beyond the threat of a > HouseElf, to do his worst? No, he ran. Well, what did you want him to do? Avada Kedavra Harry and/or Dobby, like he tried in TCTMNBN II? I found that bit in the movie ridiculous. Using an Unforgivable curse on the Boy Who Lived? I mean, *honestly*. If anything, the scene is proof of the fact that Lucius is good at adjusting to different circumstances, which is perfectly in line with his other actions. Er absence of proof is not proof of absence? > Ok, so you could say we dont have evidence to call him a brilliant > mind. However, it doesnt take a brilliant mind to be smooth, > confident and premeditating. Agreed. That was actually my position from the very beginning. But really, I don't think we can accurately assess Lucius's magical, er, skills. I've always read him as a pretty accomplished wizard, partially relying on that scene in CoS where he chastises Draco for bad grades. I've assumed that "I'd always received excellent grades at Hogwarts, better than any Mudblood's" was implied. I also think that cursing several families, Lucius's threat to the Board of Governors, is also no small feat. But I can see how others might read him differently. However, I think that the fact that we *don't* know exactly how good Lucius is speaks a lot about Lucius's means of getting about in the WW, and also of his role at Voldemort's side. Lucius doesn't fight. He manipulates. He's a politician, pure and simple. > Why would he use the diary at 'Hogwarts?' to, primarily, bring upon > Arthur Weasley? a downfall of his muggle protection act? > Hogwarts and Wizard homes are very separate things. The Diary applied > at Hogwarts, the protection act applied in Wizard Homes. How did > Lucius correlate the two? I ask. It's very simple. Ginny was the one sic'ing the Basilisk on Muggle- borns. People care about that sort of thing. You know, here's where our disagreement is only superficial. What's the number-one item on Lucius's agenda? Ridding the whole WW of Muggles and Muggle-born wizards. Weakening Arthur Weasley, the biggest (known to us) proponent of Muggles, and his Muggle Protection Act is one way of taking a step towards accomplishing his goal. The other way is getting rid of Dumbledore, and, consequently, of Muggle- born students. Lucius killed two birds with one stone. The only thing is, we've no way of knowing what was more important to Lucius. IIRC, the Muggle Protection Act was only mentioned in the very end of CoS, but the Malfoys-hate-Dumbledore drum was being beaten throughout the whole book. So, I suppose, the latter is more important. Unless it's a red herring. Slightly OT, I'm notorious for missing red herrings. I never thought that Percy was acting strangely in CoS because of his involvement with the Chamber affair. And I never thought that Sirius Black was after Harry. I mean, "He's at Hogwarts?" Classic case of Jumping To Conclusions. > I don't think he had 'no' reason to believe that Tom Riddle would not > take up arms against the famous Harry Potter. My assumption is that > he, being a man of wealth, knew he was in possession of a Dark Wizard > Treasure in that diary. Oh, I am sure he knew *exactly* what was in the diary. I am absolutely positive that he knew it had belonged to Voldemort (there's even canon for that), and that Voldemort was the one who had opened the Chamber of Secrets. Hmm, there's canon for that, too, but I won't quote it here. But. I honestly think that Lucius had no reason to believe, or hope, that Riddle would target Harry in particular. Why? Well, because Dobby, in his two conversations with Harry had never said that Harry himself would be in danger. He mentioned numerous times that there was a plot to made horrible things happen at Hogwarts, but he hadn't once told Harry that there was a plot to kill him. I'm sure that if he were aware of it, he'd say so, since he obviously cares about Harry a lot. If Lucius's primary motivation, or at least one of his main goals, was killing Harry, then I think we can assume that he mentioned it at home? > As for Harry being no threat to Lucius......... > In Harry's second year he instigated, what he believed to be a > foolproof plot, to pit the inexperienced and incapable Harry against > the strong and capable Tom Riddle. > Of course the diary would come by the hands of some child that would > gush about the most amazing child of all wizard time being his/her > classmate. Its an elementary proposition. Even a dummy like Lucius What do you mean, some child? Lucius put the diary into Ginny's cauldron. If it's just a lucky coincidence that she's the daughter of his archenemy, whose Muggle Protection Act is exactly what Lucius doesn't need, I'll eat, er, mushrooms. I don't like them. Honestly, I do not see the need for Lucius to get rid of Harry. I see where you're coming from, but I just don't read Lucius that way. He's perfectly well-adjusted in the Voldemort-free world ? he shouldn't *care* about Harry's mysterious powers. I mean, *why* is killing Harry so important to Lucius? It's not like Harry is not letting him live. He isn't all that eager to kill Dumbledore or Arthur, and surely he's got more reasons to do so? > Its a 95% confidence interval. Argh. I just had my stat exam yesterday. > Even if the gushing classmate syndrome didnt > take Harry would surely pursue anyone who attacked his dear muggle > friend Hermione. OK, now that's a stretch. The arguments above make sense, even if Lucius's motivation doesn't, but to assume that the monster would attack Hermione > I'd like to be nice for a second, though. What, you mean you weren't nice before? > Ok, I agree that the bumping into the Weasleys could have been > partially, if not fully, planned. It may not have been sheer > coincedence, you are quite right. How far ahead he planned is my only > question. :p Coincidences like that don't happen in books. > Oh, and Last, but most certainly not least. > We havent seen Dumbledore do any difficult magic? You're quite right. Maria. Four exams down, one to go. I think I'll go bake a pie to celebrate. From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Fri May 9 17:41:09 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:41:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052502069.3ebbe8353b7f6@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 57447 Quoting "Cindy C." : > I was flipping through the polls, and I noticed the poll about which > book everyone likes best. Right now, the results are: > > PS/SS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > CoS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > PoA -- 573 votes, 56.12% > GoF -- 364 votes, 35.65% > > I couldn't help but notice, however, that the exact same number of > people prefer PS/SS and CoS. Hmmmm. Very interesting, that. > > I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that causes > people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. And, uh, what is it > that makes either of those two more enjoyable than PoA? > > Opinions? > Amber: My mom's favorite book is CoS! I think it's because of the emotion at the end with Ginny and Harry, and Ginny and Ron....she's very close to her brothers and Mom LOVES Lockhart. I, myself, am a PoA fan, but I do so much love all of them as I am sure everyone here does. Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From drdara at yahoo.com Fri May 9 16:52:34 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ginny's Time TRaveling (was Riddles Origins) Very FAn ficish Message-ID: <20030509165234.23428.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57448 OK I just love this theory, here's how it could work. Since there is time traveling involved we have 2 sets of realities. Reality 1: Harry grew up in a loving family with his mum and dad. Harry went to Hogwarts met Ron and Hermione and became friends. Ron is natural to be a friend, we'll have to invent why they became friends with Hermione, after all there would be no troll incident in this one. Harry meets Ginny though Ron. During the school years, Harry ignores Ginny, but Ginny falls madly in love with Harry. School is over for everyone, Ron and Harry are working for the MOM, Harry comes home one day and sees Ginny all grown up and fresh from Hogwarts, Harry falls madly in love. Shortly after falling in love and getting married, a war starts. Now remember there was no LV in this reality. So there is something else threatning the WW world. Come to the scene where Harry and Ginny are attacked, Harry tells Ginny to run, neither of them knowing she is pregnant, Ginny runs right into someone's trap, this trap is a huge time turner, this time turner is more of a voltex it sucks Ginny into the past. Ginny wakes up in 1925/26, depending on the month Riddle was born in. Ginny wakes up and has no memory. She is found by Tom Riddle, Sr who falls in love with the helpless redhead. They marry quickly and finds out she is pregnant, both mistakenly believing Tom Sr is the father. During the pregnany Ginny's memory starts returning and she does magic, Tom Sr catches her and leaves her. Ginny wonders around until she finds the muggle orphanage run by nuns or whatever. Ginny has her memory back but she believes Tom Sr to be the dad not even thinking that is could be Harry. She gives birth asks that he be named Tom for his dad and MArvolo for her grandfather, the same grandfather that gave Ron his chess set. The nuns feeling sorry for the baby did as she asked but made up the story that his mother grew up in the village, Riddle Jr made up the rest. So somewhere in the Harry's family he is related to Slytherin and GRyfindor, So when Dumbldore said that LV was SLytherings last descendant, that is what JKR meant, technically LV was because if he was Harry's son and LV didn't have kids that would make him the last descendant. That would reality 1, reality 2 would have started the minute Ginny was hurled back into time. OF course allowing all the paradox that time traveling could bring it would be possible that this could have happen. We could say that someone saw that HArry's son with Ginny was to be evil and bring down the fall of WW, so they thought to get rid of Ginny but in doing so they created the paradox, because they got rid of Ginny they created LV. If you want to know of a good example, there was a great Twilight zone on UPN in the US, that dealt with with the paradox of time travelling. OK this is long enough, I leave you guys to pick this apart. LOL Danielle, whose is unemployed which is why she can spend time doing this. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 9 20:01:32 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:01:32 EDT Subject: FILK: Your Fault Message-ID: <1e6.8818984.2bed631c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57449 To the tune of "Your Fault" from Into the Woods I don't know where to find MIDI files....sorry.... Blessings and thanks to Darrin and Tom for keeping the Slytherin Stereotypes Thread alive. (I hope you guys don't mind I put lyrics into your mouths!) SCENE: ORYOMAI, TOM, and DARRIN are each at their respective computers reading HP4GU mail, when they each start in on the Slytherin Stereotypes thread.... (Bold/italics/underlined are all sung together.) DARRIN: It's because of you there's a Never-Ending Thread in our midst and we're stuck in it! ORYOMAI: But it isn't my fault I was shown your post You persuaded me to reply to your post And without your post There'd have been no post For me to reply to In the first place! DARRIN: Wait a minute, Slytherin posts For a thread so old That you had to doublethink To send it Which you did! Was it a worthless post? Was it worth the grieg? Oh, and tell us who Persuaded you To defend Good!Slyth. ORYOMAI: See it's his fault! TOM: No! DARRIN: So it's her fault... TOM: No! ORYOMAI: Yes it is! TOM: It's not! DARRIN: It's true. TOM: Wait a minute - But I only sent my post To break up the fight Between you two! ORYOMAI (to Tom): So it's your fault! DARRIN: Yes! TOM: No it isn't! I'd've kept my post But the thread was cursed (referring to Oryomai) She made us keep on going With the thread that's cursed! ORYOMAI: It's Darrin's fault That the post got placed And the thread continued In the first place! TOM: Oh, then it's his fault! DARRIN: No! ORYOMAI: It was his fault.... DARRIN: No! ORYOMAI: Yes it is, It's his. TOM: I guess... DARRIN: Wait a minute though - I sent my post through Right? That's clear But without any challenges Then what's queer Is how did Oryomai reply to my post In the first place? Second place... TOM: Yes! DARRIN: How? TOM: Hmm.... DARRIN: Well, Who send the other post? ORYOMAI: The other post? TOM: The other post? DARRIN (to Tom): You sent another post. TOM: I didn't! Yes I did. ORYOMAI: So it's your - ! TOM: No it isn't Cause I agreed with him! ORYOMAI: So it's his - ! DARRIN: No it isn't! TOM: Then whose is it? ORYOMAI: Wait a minute! I send that post To respond to yours So the one who knows what happened To the thread is you! DARRIN: You mean that old post - That I send - ? Oh dear - But I never knew And so I sent - Well, don't look here! TOM: So it's your fault! DARRIN: But - ORYOMAI: See it's his fault! DARRIN: But - ORYOMAI: And it isn't mine at all! TOM: But what? DARRIN: Well if she hadn't sent A post again - ORYOMAI: They were needy! DARRIN: They were greedy! Did the Slyths need you then? ORYOMAI: But I did it for Severus - ! TOM (sarcastically): So it's *his* fault then? ORYOMAI: And what about Darrin's post In the third place? DARRIN: She went and dared me to! ORYOMAI: I dared you to? DARRIN: You challenged me! She didn't think I could do - ORYOMAI: Me? DARRIN: It. She dared me! ORYOMAI: No I didn't! DARRIN, TOM: So it's your fault! ORYOMAI: Wait a minute - ! TOM: If you hadn't challenged him! ORYOMAI (to DARRIN): And you'd left the thread alone We wouldn't be in trouble In the first place! DARRIN (to TOM): Well if you hadn't replied to her post In the first place - ! DARRIN: Well, if she hadn't started it in the first place - ! ORYOMAI: It was your fault! ORYOMAI: Yes if you hadn't started it in the first place! TOM ( to Oryomai): No it's who who started it in the first place - ! DARRIN: You started the thread in the first place - ! TOM: It's your fault! ORYOMAI (to DARRIN) and DARRIN (to ORYOMAI): You're responsible! You're the one to blame! It's *your* fault! END SONG! Whoo....that was mt first full song! It's not really HP related, it's more HP4GU.... (Darrin and Tom - I hope you guys don't mind I used you in a song, if I offended you guys, I'm really sorry! I've had lots of fun with this thread!) ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 9 20:11:49 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 15:11:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! References: Message-ID: <001401c31667$39f3afe0$2cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57450 > I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that causes > people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. And, uh, what is it > that makes either of those two more enjoyable than PoA? I also am a PoA fan, but I don't have a problem choosing between PS/SS and CoS. I choose PS/SS. When I first decided to read HP, it was mainly because I was majoring in education and I felt I should read books that were popular with children so I would know what they liked to read. To say I underestimated the book would be an understatement. I remembered children's books I had read as a child that, while I might not have been able to predict the outcome as a child, it was obvious as an adult. Therefore, I allowed myself to believe that the villain of this book would be Snape. All the way through the book, I did like Hogwarts and seeing Harry learn to adapt to this new world, but I kept thinking that Snape would end up being the bad guy because no kid would believe that a teacher would do that to them. So I underestimated kids, too. I did allow myself to entertain the possibility that he wasn't the bad guy because so much emphasis was put on making him out to be the type, but I didn't think too much beyond that. The end, as you can imagine, threw me for a loop. Not only was Snape *not* the bad guy, but he had been trying to *save* Harry all this time. This plot twist is what won me over to the HP series, for I was so impressed by this that I was willing to give the next book a try. That, and I did like PS/SS to begin with. CoS is actually my least favorite HP book. To me, the most noteworthy part in the entire book is his conversation with Tom Riddle towards the end, down with Ginny. The character of Lockhart just annoyed me, and a lot of the book just seemed like a mystery novel set in a magical setting. This worked better for me in PS/SS because the world itself is new to the reader. In CoS, though, we are familiar with the world, so now we can focus a little more on the mystery itself (the petrifications). Granted, CoS does take the series to the next level. Forgetting the scene with Tom Riddle, we are introduced to the Pureblood/Muggle-born prejudices, we find out why Hagrid was expelled, we are introduced to Lucius Malfoy and Cornelius Fudge (not to mention Fawkes), and a whole bunch of other things. In retrospect, minor events and certain characters in CoS seem to be turning out to be more important than the majority of PS/SS, but I still find myself enjoying PS/SS more, perhaps just because it *was* the first. Even so, though, they both come in behind PoA and GoF in my mind. Maybe, too, I prefer PS/SS because, although I read that one for clues to upcoming plot events, I can still read it as a book in and of itself. Because CoS has the things introduced in it that it does, all I keep thinking about when I read CoS is GoF. For example, Lucius Malfoy. He's shown here and there, and all I keep thinking about is all the stuff we find out about him in GoF. In some ways, all CoS does for me when I read it is tease me about events in GoF. It's fun being able to know more about certain things than they show in that book, but it also makes it harder for me to enjoy CoS for what it is in and of itself. Don't know how much sense this made, but hopefully someone was able to decipher it. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 9 20:15:10 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 20:15:10 -0000 Subject: Echoes (was Re: James Potter Dead????) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > > Ersatz Harry wrote: > > > Do they go back into Voldemort's want? If the latter, can > > they be summoned again? > > Me(Linda): > Interesting point. I actually like the idea of them returming > to the wand. You may have stumbled upon a very important future plot > twist. It would make it possible for Harry to defeat Voldemort with > his parents help. Yes indeed. I like this a lot. Thank you. This had been hanging around my brain since I started wondering if the title OoP meant that there would be other people who would be able to get wands with Fawkes's feathers in them. Just think of all the people who would be thrilled to summon up James and Lily and have a chat (though the necessary presence of Voldemort would probably make this tough, at least until he was disposed of and his wand seized). Besides Harry, of course, I expect that Sirius and Remus would be most pleased, and maybe we'll end up with Snape summoning them up, though that would have a tad too much tear-jerker potential. Ersatz Harry From alison.williams at virgin.net Fri May 9 20:12:16 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (bluetad2001) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 20:12:16 -0000 Subject: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." > > Hey, > > I was flipping through the polls, and I noticed the poll about which > book everyone likes best. Right now, the results are: > > > PS/SS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > CoS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > PoA -- 573 votes, 56.12% > GoF -- 364 votes, 35.65% > > Not much to argue about there -- PoA rules! ;-) > > I couldn't help but notice, however, that the exact same number of > people prefer PS/SS and CoS. Hmmmm. Very interesting, that. > > I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that causes > people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. And, uh, what is it > that makes either of those two more enjoyable than PoA? > > Opinions? > > Cindy -- noting that CoS used to be behind PS/SS but seems to have > surged following the release of the movie When I started reading PS I knew by the end of chapter one that I had to get hold of the rest of the books that were out at that time (CoS, PoA and GoF - I was a late starter!) So I rated it pretty high. I'm still very fond of it just because it was the first and a wonderful surprise. I voted for PoA on the poll. My ratings would go from merely high for PS and CoS to something well above high for PoA and almost as much for GoF. Its pretty difficult to choose between them though. Having said that I think that I've probably under-rated CoS. I suspect there is a lot more in it that first met the eye. Alison From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 9 20:29:00 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 20:29:00 -0000 Subject: FILK: Your Fault In-Reply-To: <1e6.8818984.2bed631c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57453 > > Whoo....that was mt first full song! It's not really HP related, it's more > HP4GU.... > > (Darrin and Tom - I hope you guys don't mind I used you in a song, if I > offended you guys, I'm really sorry! I've had lots of fun with this thread!) > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm not offended in the slightest! I only wish I knew this song! I need to find it and try to get the tune to go along with this. I'm at work right now, but... you've inspired me. I might try something like this myself. I'm glad we can laugh about these knockdown dragout debates out here. Darrin From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 9 20:32:34 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 15:32:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Diary References: Message-ID: <001801c3166a$2019c4d0$2cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57454 Valky: > I am not, per se, "sure" that Dobby wasn't baited by Mr Malfoy. Thus > causing his pursual of Harry. In fact I am willing to concede that it > is very likely that he was. Although,.. what is your take on that? > Did he bait Dobby to keep Harry away from Hogwarts during that year > or was that an unplanned anomaly? > Honestly, I dont believe that Lucius wanted Harry to be absent during > the opening of the Chamber, and, failing any faith in a possibility > of Lucius making such an early blunder in his plot, as to have his > elf almost prevent Harry attending Hogwarts at all............... > I would have to say that two large loopholes just appeared in this > other wise applicable argument. Maria: My take? I also can't see why Lucius would feel the need to trick Dobby into warning Harry about his "plans" for Hogwarts. If anything, Harry would die, which wouldn't grieve Lucius, I'm sure. OTOH, I can easily imagine *Draco* having a little joke and feeding Dobby this tidbit of information in hopes of scaring Harry away from the school. Do I believe it? Maybe, but I don't think it matters at all. Kelly (me): My take: I always got the impression that Lucius was afraid Harry would somehow ruin his plans, so wanted him out of the way so his plans would go off without a hitch. Harry defeated Lucius's master. Lucius probably heard about Harry thwarting Voldemort the previous year, so was doing everything in his power to make sure Harry wouldn't screw him over. Lucius isn't going to try to outright kill Harry. That's been tried before by one more powerful than Lucius and failed. So, his plan is to keep Harry away from Hogwarts. Valky: > It is reasonable to say, we havent seen him use magic yet so how can > we judge? However, there has been at least one occassion in the books > where he could have used magic, but, appeared to run like a coward. > One would be at the resolution of COS, when Dobby threatened to use > magic on him. Did he attempt to continue, beyond the threat of a > HouseElf, to do his worst? No, he ran. Maria: Well, what did you want him to do? Avada Kedavra Harry and/or Dobby, like he tried in TCTMNBN II? I found that bit in the movie ridiculous. Using an Unforgivable curse on the Boy Who Lived? I mean, *honestly*. Kelly (me): Don't even get me started on that scene. He would've been doing it not only on The Boy Who Lived, but about five paces away from the entry to Dumbledore's office. Lucius isn't dumb enough to do anything there unless he *really* wants to go visit Azkaban. Valky: > Why would he use the diary at 'Hogwarts?' to, primarily, bring upon > Arthur Weasley? a downfall of his muggle protection act? > Hogwarts and Wizard homes are very separate things. The Diary applied > at Hogwarts, the protection act applied in Wizard Homes. How did > Lucius correlate the two? I ask. Maria: It's very simple. Ginny was the one sic'ing the Basilisk on Muggle- borns. People care about that sort of thing. You know, here's where our disagreement is only superficial. What's the number-one item on Lucius's agenda? Ridding the whole WW of Muggles and Muggle-born wizards. Weakening Arthur Weasley, the biggest (known to us) proponent of Muggles, and his Muggle Protection Act is one way of taking a step towards accomplishing his goal. The other way is getting rid of Dumbledore, and, consequently, of Muggle- born students. Lucius killed two birds with one stone. The only thing is, we've no way of knowing what was more important to Lucius. IIRC, the Muggle Protection Act was only mentioned in the very end of CoS, but the Malfoys-hate-Dumbledore drum was being beaten throughout the whole book. So, I suppose, the latter is more important. Unless it's a red herring. Kelly (me): Here's my read on this whole thing. Arthur Weasley's department has been stepping up the number of raids they have been conducting. It was to a point where Lucius felt threatened by them and so started selling some of his dark objects. He is confident that Arthur's raiders won't find his secret compartment (which they didn't the first time Malfoy Manor was raided), but he is not liking this turn of events at all. He also hears that Arthur is trying to get a Muggle Protection Act passed, which runs contrary to Lucius's beliefs. He decides to take action. He has Voldemort's school diary lying around the house. I believe Lucius knew what was inside it, so therefore knew the Chamber of Secrets did exist, and the personality inside the diary knew how to get in. He doesn't want his son to be the one opening it because it would make the Malfoys look bad and ultimately not do him much good, so he needs someone else to open it. Again, Lucius knew what was in the diary. He decides, as Maria says, to kill two birds with one stone. He will have a Weasley open the Chamber and unleash the monster that will kill some Muggle-borns. This will not only send a message to all Muggle-borns (that they don't belong in the WW), but will also incriminate the Weasley family. Arthur's Act will fail because his daughter was the one behind the killings. The potential foil to his plan is, I said earlier, Harry. Even knowing that Voldemort's younger self is in the diary, Lucius knows that Harry, as an infant, somehow managed to defeat Voldemort once before. This was a Voldemort at the height of his powers. If a baby Harry could do that, Lucius has got to figure that a teenaged Harry has a possibility of figuring out what's going on and taking out a teenaged Voldemort. This is why I don't believe Lucius had ever planned for Voldemort/Riddle to try to kill off Harry. As for removing Dumbledore, Lucius might have had that in his calculations as well, but I see this attack as being directed more at Arthur Weasley and Muggle-borns in general. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Fri May 9 19:32:40 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:32:40 -0000 Subject: OotP not to be in paperback??? In-Reply-To: <029c01c31577$73fe19f0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" wrote: > Are you seriously going to wait months to read OoTP just because it first comes out in hardback?? They don't release hardbacks and paperbacks simultaneously. If so, you'll probably want to leave this list in the meantime...because we'll be discussing the hell out of it. > > ~Katy~ > Diane replies: Of course I'm not going to wait to READ it!!! :-D I just never BUY hardbacks (too bulky & expensive). I'll borrow from a friend or the library, like I did for GoF. "Diane" From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri May 9 20:49:05 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 20:49:05 -0000 Subject: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57456 Cindy asked about our favourite books. Strangely enough, I'd have to say that my favourite book is GoF, even though my favourite character is Lupin, and I was a bit annoyed not to see Lupin in GoF. I suppose I like GoF better because of the amazing Fake Moody plot twist. I just love it when mystery writers do it to me. I love being deceived. And no, I wasn't all that deceived in PoA. I had no chance of guessing Scabbers/Pettigrew, of course, but I did have a suspicion that Sirius wasn't guilty. GoF has other very attractive characteristics. Loads of interesting new characters, new details about the Wizarding World, WW International, Quidditch World Cup, a French people, an evil and cowardly character with a Russian name and an evil school situated in Russia. I mean, what's not to like? Oh yes ? Snape. Snape, Snape, Snape. The Egg and the Eye. Cool Voldemort humour. "I will allow you to perform an essential task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right hands to perform " LOL! Also Snape humour. Don't kill me, but I found the "I see no difference" line to be one of the funniest in the book. Crouch Jr. is also very amusing in the black humour way. I don't know if I liked PS better than CoS or not. If we go by reading time, I spent two days reading PS, but only six hours or so reading CoS. I guess I liked CoS better. I immensely enjoyed Lockhart as a character, the mystery was really cool, and it had many more details about the WW. Details are what I like the most. CoS was also a much more mature book than PS. At the very least, it lacked a Dissin' the Slyths scene. Slightly OT, was anyone else annoyed by the ending of TCTMNBN Deux? CoS is also a lot more polished than PS, which has all sorts of expressions that never appear later in the series. "Gulpin' Gargoyles" and "Gallopin' Gorgons" is one. Another is the frequent use of the word "enchantment," which later on seems to refer to very complex magic that incorporates many different "genres," such as charms, transfiguration, etc. And the maintain-eye-contact "jinx" in PS is also strange, since later on we have the Jelly-Legs Jinx that doesn't appear to need any eye contact or muttering. My two Knuts. Maria From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 9 19:58:01 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:58:01 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" > I think I have > Here's one possibility, though I don't happen to agree with it: it is > ethical to kill someone who has, say, killed your parents. If we > accept this as an ethical principle (and maybe it's too narrow to fit > the definition of a principle), then we could construe Harry's killing > Voldemort as ethical but Draco's killing Voldemort as not. Blood-revenge. There has been several societies where this was an active principle, not only accepted but required. Such as well - Shakespeare's Hamlet presents (Ghost of Hamlet's father demands his death to be avenged), or Ancient Greek, where it was a moral _requirement_ to avenge the death of one's parent... Wizards seem to at least accept this. Draco Malfoy is first to bring it up (in question of Black) - Sirius and Remus both are to carry out avenge on their friend, but agree that the SON has more right to decide (on Pettigrew, the REAL traitor). Harry decides to let him go. One might say that Pettigrew-business already addressed this point... The fact that Harry, with revenge right and means, takes action to spare him from others willing to take revenge - perhaps _that_ is what makes it so heavy life-debt that it will be of use? That rat owes triple his life - once, because Harry's not taking revenge; twice for sparing him from Sirius; and third for saving him from Remus! I _would_ like to see where this pays off! That rat hasn't done much good yet, has he? -- Finwitch From cgbrennan at aol.com Fri May 9 20:41:55 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 20:41:55 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius find Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57458 I don't know if this has already been discussed, since I'm new (so please forgive me) but how did Sirius find Harry? If, and it seems this is the general consensus, that Arabella Figg is Harry's secret keeper, no one should have been able to find him. In PofA, p. 205, Fudge explains that the secret "...is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" Okay, so maybe Figg isn't a secret keeper, but Voldemort alludes to some "ancient magic" keeping Harry safe while he's "in his relations care," so the secret-keeper idea makes sense. Is it just applicable to someone who wants to harm Harry, like in SS with the mirror only giving the stone to one who wants to find, but not use the stone? I'm assuming that, being James and Lily's best friend, he'd probably know about her sister, but still, how did he find Harry? Did he just look him up in the yellow pages? Okay, thinking about this wayyyy to much-I NEED that 5th book!!!! "CG" From katrina_van_tassel_7 at yahoo.com Fri May 9 21:15:52 2003 From: katrina_van_tassel_7 at yahoo.com (katrina van tassel) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5th Person at Godric's Hollow Message-ID: <20030509211552.8052.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57459 I have never thought that there could have been someone else than the Potters and Voldemort that night at Godric's Hollow, except for a potential Peter Pettigrew in his rat form (he was the secret keeper after all, but he is way too cowardly to show his betrayal to James and Lily). I really don't like the theory I'm going to hand over, but it came to my mind as I was reading Peggy's post. We have seen this done already and the idea of repeating a trick is not a nice one to me, but it hit me while reading these lines: "Someone told Lily to take Harry and run--it was a voice that Harry thinks could have been his father's. This may just be because *he wants it to be his father's voice*." (emphasis mine) "Harry wanted to believe that the Patronus that came from across the lake (P of A) was his father protecting him and his friends. He saw who he thought was his father---*it was actually himself*." (emphasis mine again). "Harry desperately wants to have his parents by his side, and his mind knows this (the "reflection" in the mirror (PS/SS)." What if the voice Harry hears in the presence of the boggart/dementor is his own voice? What if Harry comes back to that night in order to help his parents and gets killed by Lord Voldemort while gaining some time for Lily and baby Harry? He knows where the Potters were hiding, the Fidelius Charm was already broken, he has used a Time Turner before... it makes awful sense... As I said before, I don't like this theory but couldn't keep it to myself.So what if the mere presence of his future self in that tragic night has the power to prevent his past self from being killed? Nasty theory though... Katrina - " It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. " Headmaster Albus Dumbledore --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Fri May 9 21:26:45 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:26:45 -0000 Subject: Petunia is not a muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Monita" wrote: > I am posting a lot lately aren't I. > > > THe likeness of Filch's jealousy toward Hogwarts students and > Petunia's attitude to her sister is uncanny isn't it. Maybe Petunia > is not a muggle at all. Has Harry ever met or been told anything > about his grandparents? > > Valky I wonder if Petunia may have some magical powers herself, but is embarrassed by them. Perhaps she chose to live the life of a muggle because she was convinced that being a witch/wizard is to be a freak... Any thoughts? Elisabeth From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri May 9 21:28:51 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How did Sirius find Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030509212851.46889.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57461 --- cgbrennan2003 wrote: > I don't know if this has already been discussed, since I'm new (so > please forgive me) but how did Sirius find Harry? If, and it seems > this is the general consensus, that Arabella Figg is Harry's secret > keeper, no one should have been able to find him. That's one theory, but certainly not the general consensus! I'd say that general consensus is that Mrs.Figg is some form of magical surveillance or protection for Harry, but the Secret Keeper idea is usually shot down for just the reasons you mention. Harry's found too often for him to be under the Fidelius Charm. The Weasleys find him in books 2 and four, random witches and wizards see him on the street, etc. If he was under the Fidelius Charm, no one should have ever spotted him. I'd assume that Sirius knew Harry was probably staying with his aunt and uncle since he'd been disqualified as guardian, knew where they lived, and headed on over. Remember also that Harry was several streets away when he spotted Sirius; Sirius could've only known the general location and was searching the neighborhood for Harry's scent. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From cgbrennan at aol.com Fri May 9 20:24:46 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 20:24:46 -0000 Subject: Imperius Curse In-Reply-To: <20030508193842.93743.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57462 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > > --- Ali wrote: > > > Although it would seem that Harry was > > > unusual in being able to throw off the curse, > > Ron is singled out as > > > having difficulties with it. I believe that > > this inability to resist > > > either the Veela or the Imperius curse will > > be significant later. > > > Lynn: > > I don't see that Ron was singled out as having > difficulties with it. It seems many in the the > class couldn't resist it either, all those that > came before Harry. What's said is the Ron had > much more difficulty than Harry. (GoF, p. 205, > UK) Therefore, Ron may have done better than > others in the class, just not as good as Harry. > I, too, find it interesting that Hermione isn't > mentioned with relation to how well she was able > to deal with it. > > Lynn > Actually, it looks like none of them could do what Harry could..."Not one of them seemed to be able to fight off the curse, and each of them recovered only when Moody had removed it."--- p.231 So, it doesn't look like Hermione faired much better that the rest of them. Colleen From lissbell at colfax.com Fri May 9 21:19:42 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:19:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Said it's Descendant, not Ancestor (WAS: Tom Riddle's Origins) References: Message-ID: <3EBC1B6E.CB4A9F69@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57463 (snipped Lissa's exploration of the CoS "ancestor" versus "descendant" problem) Phyllis wrote: > British HPfGU listees have clarified that JKR's use of the > phrase "deliberate error" is intended to signify her admission that > she unintentionally goofed and is now owning up to her error, rather > than that she intentionally tried to mislead her readers. Lissa replied: Thanks for the clarification. The lit student in me is a bit obsessed with wording, so this is important information to have! I recalled reading that the error may have been intentional, but now I see that's not the case. (It doesn't affect my Ginny & Harry theory at all, but I'm always thrilled to get pieces in this plot puzzle.) Very interesting. Thanks, Phyllis! Cheers, Lissa From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 9 21:43:07 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 23:43:07 +0200 Subject: How did Sirius know?? Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius find Harry? References: <20030509212851.46889.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01c31673$fb64e750$8b016750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57464 Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a Gryffindor?? The night he entered the castle he went straight away to the Gryffindor Rooms, but how could he know that Ron, and therefore Pettigrew, were in gryffindor house?. In the daily prophet article about the weasleys, the one Sirius read and gave him the clue about Pettigrew, it wasn't mentioned they were all gryffindors, only that 5 of the children attended the school. Any thoughts??? Cbeers, Izaskun ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Fri May 9 21:51:38 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 22:51:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Sirius find Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030509222907.00989e10@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57465 At 21:41 09/05/03 , cgbrennan2003 wrote: >I don't know if this has already been discussed, since I'm new (so >please forgive me) but how did Sirius find Harry? If, and it seems >this is the general consensus, that Arabella Figg is Harry's secret >keeper, no one should have been able to find him. Whoah! I think you'll find that the general consensus is quite the opposite. Every time someone (usually someone new to detailed rational analysis of the Potterverse) suggests that notion either here or in other forums, they're very quickly shot down. I won't go through the rationale as it's an old, tired subject (and regularly raised), but suffice to say that people who propose that "theory" have little to defend it in discussion other than wishful thinking. >Okay, so maybe Figg isn't a secret keeper, but Voldemort alludes to some >"ancient magic" keeping Harry safe while he's "in his relations care," so >the secret-keeper idea makes sense. No it doesn't, because a heck of a lot of people know where Harry lives, starting with the Weasleys and ending with Voldemort himself. >Is it just applicable to someone who wants to harm Harry, like in SS with >the mirror only giving the stone to one who wants to find, but not use the >stone? I'm assuming that, being James and Lily's best friend, he'd >probably know about her sister, but still, how did he find Harry? Did he >just look him up in the yellow pages? Hagrid had a conversation with him in Godric's Hollow when he took Harry away, and considering Sirius wasn't under suspicion at that time, it would have been perfectly reasonable for Hagrid not only to say where he was taking Harry in rough terms, but the exact address. Even so, considering his best friend's wife was Muggle-born, it would have been perfectly reasonable for Sirius to have known how to use a telephone and even a directory to find the Dursleys. All in all, if you get over the (IMO daft) suggestion that Harry is protected by a Secret Keeper, there's nothing at all surprising in the ease with which Sirius traced Harry. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's just looked through the FAQ and was a bit surprised that the Figg Secret-Keeper issue isn't covered... From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 9 21:49:06 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia is not a muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030509214906.58440.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57466 a_rude_mechanical wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Monita" wrote: > I am posting a lot lately aren't I. > > > THe likeness of Filch's jealousy toward Hogwarts students and > Petunia's attitude to her sister is uncanny isn't it. Maybe Petunia > is not a muggle at all. Has Harry ever met or been told anything > about his grandparents? > > Valky I wonder if Petunia may have some magical powers herself, but is embarrassed by them. Perhaps she chose to live the life of a muggle because she was convinced that being a witch/wizard is to be a freak... Any thoughts? Elisabeth ME: Maybe but I don't think so. Because when she talked about her "sister" getting one of those letters, it didn't sound like this was an expected occurance in the household. Also she would have had to condemn her parents too which would have been harder to do psychologically. Also the magical community lives in such a different society then the muggles do so that she would have grown up learning from babyhood that magick is in fact NORMAL and if anything the muggles are the ones lacking in something. Remember most witches/wizards do not have much to do with muggles so where would she have learned at such a young age that being a witch was akin to being a freak? It IS a possibility that being born to muggle parents she also posesses magickal ability like her sister and has suppressed it since growing up a muggle she may well think it's wrong and freakish. It is even more likely that this all is just really deep MAJOR jealousy of her sister's ability! I bet ya deep in her heart she'd give anything to be a witch! Huggs Becky Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wmj007 at hotmail.com Fri May 9 17:26:22 2003 From: wmj007 at hotmail.com (engbama) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:26:22 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins/Multiple Riddles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57467 The simplest explanation that I can come up with is that the teenage LV killed his fater Tom Riddle and his grandparents. In my family my grandfather, father, and I have the same name. ENGineer from alaBAMA The simplest explanation is usualy the correct one. IMHO. From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Fri May 9 21:08:50 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:08:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57468 > ---------- > From: Cindy C. > Reply To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 9, 2003 11:27 AM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! > > Hey, > > Hey, > > I was flipping through the polls, and I noticed the poll about which > book everyone likes best. Right now, the results are: > > > PS/SS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > CoS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > PoA -- 573 votes, 56.12% > GoF -- 364 votes, 35.65% > > Not much to argue about there -- PoA rules! ;-) > I haven't voted yet, but I must say that I perfer PoA/GoF as a unit, actually. > I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that causes > people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. And, uh, what is it > that makes either of those two more enjoyable than PoA? > I think that those who prefer PS/SS & CoS might like them because they are more stand-alone. The arc was just beginning and those two books are more childlike in their approach. It starts getting "Real" with PoA and definitely turns quite serioius in GoF. I imagine that ultimately all 7 will hang together well, but there is no doubt when reading them as a unit that you are riding the coaster up the hill in the first two books. Mycropht From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Fri May 9 21:27:46 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:27:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OotP not to be in paperback??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57469 > ---------- > From: mmemalkin > Reply To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 9, 2003 2:32 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OotP not to be in paperback??? > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" > wrote: > > Are you seriously going to wait months to read OoTP just because it > first comes out in hardback?? They don't release hardbacks and > paperbacks simultaneously. If so, you'll probably want to leave this > list in the meantime...because we'll be discussing the hell out of it. > > > > ~Katy~ > > >Diane replies: >Of course I'm not going to wait to READ it!!! :-D I >just never BUY >hardbacks (too bulky & expensive). I'll borrow from a friend or the > library, like I did for GoF. > If it's any consolation, the prices out there on this particular hardback are ridiculously low. If, like me, you prefer to re-re-re-re-read these books, it's a good deal. I, too, generally prefer paperbacks for price and storage. However there are certain books that I feel strongly enough about to have around in Hardback. Mycropht From lissbell at colfax.com Fri May 9 21:09:52 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:09:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins References: Message-ID: <3EBC1920.76100500@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57470 Lissa wrote: > a long post that Harry Potter and Ginny > Weasley may be Tom Riddle's biological > parents. Jahanua wrote: > Ok, since I have read all the responces, this has a little to do with > several. First of all, when relating Harry's living relations, > Voldemort may not be living, but the weasleys certainly are. If > Harry had a child with Ginny, and Ginny is living, that would make > them relations, even if not by blood. Also, if the weasleys are > decendants of slytherin, then Harry would be related to them this way > too. Lissa replied: Hi Jahanua. Interesting points. I think the narration at the beginning of PoA that refers to the Dursleys as Harry's "only living relatives" has to be read in that specific context. If you go back enough generations, all human beings are presumably related, so taken from an absolutely literal standpoint, the statement is inherently false. I think there's an assumed "immediate" before the term relatives in this case. I also don't assume the Weasleys are descended from Slytherin. I think they *could* be, but don't have to be. As for Harry being related to the Weasleys via the shared child with Ginny: well, yes. I do see what you're saying. I'm not sure I'd agree that this makes the Weasleys Harry's relatives--especially since no relationship has yet occurred between Harry and Ginny when this statement in PoA is made. From a legal standpoint, I suspect the only people qualified to be termed Harry's relatives are the Dursleys. Nonetheless, I'd certainly prefer that Harry had been raised by Arthur and Molly! Jahanua wrote: > Secondly, the quote where the word ancestor was used, while that > is simply the stupidest mistake I can think of, it does seem to be a > mistake. If Harry is Voldemort's dad, I still don't see how that > makes Slytherin his descendant. Slytherin lived more than a thousand > years ago, Voldemort was born about 70 years ago, and if Harry is > his father, he can not be Slytherin's ancestor. Lissa replied: I don't feel qualified to discuss this since it's not a part of my own theory. I do, however, find Valky's idea that all of this ultimately relates to Salazar Slytherin to be intriguing and possible. I must confess I have some difficulty believing the word "ancestor" was a mere mistake. (And even if it was an honest error, it might be a bit of a Freudian slip that suggests Rowling was pondering twists in the expected flow of generations, but I know that's a bit of a reach!) You're absolutely right, however, that even if Harry is Voldemort's father it doesn't make Riddle Slytherin's ancestor. Jahanua wrote: > Thirdly, can you immagine how many turns it would take on a time > turner to take you back 70 years, not to mention taking you back far > enough to be slytherin's ancestor? Lissa replied: Too many! But this assumes that the the time turner Hermione uses is the only magical device capable of moving people in time. PoA shows us that time travel is possible in the Potter universe, but I don't think it states that the only magical means of achieving it is the short-range time turner. Jahanua wrote: > Lastly, if Ginny is Voldemort's mom, then why doesn't he have any > weasley features? he doesn't look at all like a weasley, and why > would he want to kill his mom in cos, which also brings up the > question, if he couldn't kill his dad, how could he come so close to > killing his mom? He grew stronger as she grew weaker, it would make > more sence that he would also be erasing his life as she grew weaker. > I am not saying this theory isn't good, just that i have problems > with it. If you have anwsers to these questions, (especially the part > about killing his mom) i would love to hear it. Lissa replied: The only feature Harry inherited from his own mother were, apparently, her eyes. It shouldn't be terribly surprising, then, if Harry's own son takes after him just as strongly. As for wanting to kill his mother in CoS: not for a second do I believe Tom Marvolo Riddle has any idea that Ginny and Harry are his parents. It would be stupid and suicidal to try to kill your parents before they could create you. As for diary-Riddle's ability to come critically close to killing Ginny and Harry without exhibiting any signs of weakening? That's a great question, Jahanua, thanks for bringing it up. I have two responses to it. First, I don't think that, until the very moment Voldemort attempts to kill Harry outright in his crib and before Erised in Philosopher's Stone, he suffers any direct physical consequences. Ginny is dying, but she still has time left. Diary-Riddle *is* erasing his life as Ginny grows weaker, but I don't think this would be apparent until the very second she was about to die. It didn't get to that point in the novel. This is the explanation I tend to favor. If you don't like that one, however, I'll offer another. Unlike the real-world Voldemort, diary-Riddle is *not* the physical manifestation of the man himself and thus doesn't have a body that can suffer as the threat to Tom Riddle's existence increases. He would simply have ceased to exist with Ginny's death, like a light going suddenly and completely out. I really loved your questions! ~Lissa From dorigen at hotmail.com Fri May 9 21:55:02 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:55:02 +0000 Subject: How did Sirius know?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57471 > Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a >Gryffindor?? The night he entered the castle he went straight away to the >Gryffindor Rooms, but how could he know that Ron, and therefore Pettigrew, >were in gryffindor house?. In the daily prophet article about the weasleys, >the one Sirius read and gave him the clue about Pettigrew, it wasn't >mentioned they were all gryffindors, only that 5 of the children attended >the school. > He didn't *know,* but it was a good guess, because he *did* know that James was in Gryffindor. We know that families tend to favor one house (cf. Lucius and Draco), and that the houses select for characteristics which James could suppose had been passed down from father to son. Besides, it was the only house whose location and layout he knew for sure (assuming he was in Gryffindor himself, which I believe although I don't remember any canon on the subject), and so a good place to start. If he hadn't found Ron there, he would probably have tried other places, which would have been more difficult. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Fri May 9 21:48:53 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:48:53 -0400 Subject: How did Sirius know?? Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius find Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57472 > ---------- > From: fridwulfa > Reply To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 9, 2003 4:43 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: How did Sirius know?? Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius > find Harry? > > > > Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a > Gryffindor?? > I believe that Crookshanks told him. Crookshanks stole the passwords for him to get into Gryffindor. We know that Crookshanks had an obvious dislike for Scabbers. Mycropht From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 9 21:55:11 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:55:11 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius know?? Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius find Harry? In-Reply-To: <001b01c31673$fb64e750$8b016750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a Gryffindor?? Cherchez le chat. If I recall correctly, Sirius obtained the passwords via Crookshanks, who apparently found them wherever Neville dropped them and was able to realize what they were. If Crookshanks could realize all that and apparently communicate with Sirius, then he was presumably also able to tell Sirius where Ron was. Yes, we do need to know a bit more about Crookshanks, don't we? Ersatz Harry From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Fri May 9 21:59:15 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:59:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins/Multi ple Riddles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57474 >The simplest explanation that I can come up with is that the teenage > LV killed his fater Tom Riddle and his grandparents. In my family my > grandfather, father, and I have the same name. > > ENGineer from alaBAMA > >The simplest explanation is usualy the correct one. IMHO. Aw come on! Why bring Occam's Razor into it when convoluted postulates involving time turners, alternate universes and gum are much more fun? FWIW, I do agree, but I think that it would be interesting to see more of LV's interaction with the Muggleverse. Mycropht From cgbrennan at aol.com Fri May 9 22:02:33 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 22:02:33 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius know?? Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius find Harry? In-Reply-To: <001b01c31673$fb64e750$8b016750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a Gryffindor?? The night he entered the castle he went straight away to the Gryffindor Rooms, but how could he know that Ron, and therefore Pettigrew, were in gryffindor house?. In the daily prophet article about the weasleys, the one Sirius read and gave him the clue about Pettigrew, it wasn't mentioned they were all gryffindors, only that 5 of the children attended the school. Sirius told Harry, Ron, and Hermione that he had become friends with Crookshanks; I just assumed that the cat told him! (...finally, I managed tocommunicate to him what I was after, and he's been helping me..." p. 364 "...so he stole the passwords into Gryffindor Tower for me..." CGBrennan From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri May 9 22:15:14 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How did Sirius know?? In-Reply-To: <001b01c31673$fb64e750$8b016750@takun> Message-ID: <20030509221514.73791.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57476 --- fridwulfa wrote: > Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a > Gryffindor?? The night he entered the castle he went straight away to > the Gryffindor Rooms, but how could he know that Ron, and therefore > Pettigrew, were in gryffindor house?. In the daily prophet article about > the weasleys, the one Sirius read and gave him the clue about Pettigrew, > it wasn't mentioned they were all gryffindors, only that 5 of the > children attended the school. Sirius had already been in contact with Crookshanks by then. That's how he got the password to get in, after all. Presumably Crookshanks could have communicated where the Animagus rat was, probably even led him straight to the right bed. Andrea __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Fri May 9 21:05:42 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:05:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins/Multi ple Riddles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57477 > ---------- > From: Kirstini > Reply To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 9, 2003 11:22 AM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's > origins/Multiple Riddles > >Riiiight (snaps on a pair of rubber gloves). WHY WHY WHY does > everyone assume that the dead women identified as "Mrs Riddle" is >Voldemort's mother? READ. LOOK. Sorry. New person alert. Pardon any lapses in judgement on my part. I am posting from work and don't have my copy of the book with me to reference, but I believe there is also a statement LV makes in the graveyard at Little Hangleton that his father returned to his Muggle family. My assumption has been all along that the 3 Riddles who died at Little Hangleton were LV's grandfather, grandmother and and father. The teenage boy in the vicinity was, in my assumption, young LV just out of Hogwarts flexing his Wizard Muscle. Mycropht From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri May 9 21:35:33 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:35:33 -0000 Subject: Crazy Theory about the 5th Person at AGodric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57478 Linda: First let me apologize as this thread hasn't been touched in a couple of days but I plan on taking it in an entirely new direction so please bear with me. Second,let me say that IMHO, the fifth person at Godric's Hollow was Peter Petigrew.(whom for the purposes of the rest of this post will be refered to as P). My main reason for this belief is that from what we know of LV, he is not a trusting soul and would have brought PP with him until his information was prooved to be correct. (Just in case he needed to kill P for lying to him.) Peggy wrote: > Someone told Lily to take Harry and run--it was a voice that Harry > thinks could have been his father's. This may just be because he > wants it to be his father's voice. Me again(Linda): Now on to the crazy theory...Da-da-da-da-da-da-da(drum roll please!) A lot of opinions have been given, either for or against, as to whether Snape was in love with Lily. Personally I am in the camp against and I'd like to take that a step further. I propose that P was in love with Lily during his school days. I doubt that anyone else knew about this, indeed I doubt if he ever said it aloud-even to himself. I think of it as the kind of crush a twelve year old boy harbors for his sixteen year old brother's girlfriend, considered an impossible goal to obtain and based in fantasy. IMO, it WAS hit father's voice that Harry heard in the demontor induced memory of the fateful night that LV came to Godric's Hollow.(Am I being too melodramatic?) Here are the event as I see them: V and P arrive at Godric's Hollow together. James tells Lily to take Harry and run. V kills James. V proceeds to follow Lily and in the process moves toward Harry. This is where the theory once again comes into play. P follows V, sobbing and begging his lord to spare his love. (Pplease master...spare her...it's the baby you want... I gave you what you desired...you promised me reward if I did as you asked...) V gives in to the point that he actually asks Lily to step aside. When Lily refuses, V kills her. V attempts to kill Harry and AK backfires on him. P takes V's wand and flees in terror of the other DEs. (As to how V got out of there and out of the country, I'm not sure. Perhaps he was in a noncorporeal form and was able to travel via the very air currants.) As to what happened next, we have cannon for that(regardless of the issues of the timeline of that night). For that reason,I won't go into that here as it has a whole thread of it's own. So fire away with your critiques and arguments. I humbly await your opinions. -Linda, who has put way too much thought into this From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 9 19:17:30 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:17:30 -0000 Subject: Harry the House Elf/Hedwig/bind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > I don't think that there is any evidence either way. Harry is > obviously very aware of his "old baggy clothes" forced on him by the > Dursleys, so that it is possible that away from them he has bought a > whole wardrobe of new clothes to wear. However, I'm inclined to > think that Harry is not very materialistic or self-aware, so that > providing the offending articles weren't on view he would continue > wearing them. > > I don't think that the ancient protection surrounding Harry is > exclusively the Dursleys cast-off clothes, but I do wonder if Harry > is somehow indentured to them and that the clothes play a binding > factor. The contract would be voided and Harry would be "freed" if > the Dursleys were to give him new clothes. Whilst he is in > their "care" he is protected, but that protection would disappear if > they were to buy clothes especially for him. > I do not believe that Harry's protection dies the minute he is away > from the Dursleys. I do believe though that it becomes weaker. It > would have been at its weakest at the end of the school year - which > just happens to be when Voldemort struck in GoF; perhaps this is no > coincidence. I don't think used clothes are what bind Harry. Notion of Harry having hardly no Dursley clothes left, however, could be symbolical. He has, by every book, become more and more free from them. In the very beginning, contact from wizarding world moves him into a bedroom rather than a closet. It /is/ a bit more free, I suppose. Then, of course, he doesn't have to spend all year with Dursleys. Of course, Dobby - well, Harry is in some ways like he was with Malfoys. But with clothes- Dobby needed one sock - or any piece of cloth- from Malfoy's hand to get free; Seems like Harry is getting free by getting RID of the clothes he gets from his 'masters'. Harry's poor mail service in beginning is another indication of his prisonment. Bird is symbol of freedom, and Owl the WW to Harry... First book, where he *gets* Hedwig, is when his mind becomes to see the possibility of freedom - and that there IS such a thing as magic. However, next Hedwig is locked up in cage - (and Dobby steals Harry's letters, AND blocks his entrance to Platform 9 3/4)... So um - yes, Harry has it, but it's blocked away from him - until flying Ford Anglia helps him out. At this point Harry's mail service is _very_ unreliable - unless some adult wizard/witch makes sure it works. Third book, Harry lets Hedwig out - though a bit reluctantly - and later, follows. (Inspired by Sirius Black escape in TV?) In GoF... Hedwig's still long time away, contacting Sirius far away - but this is on Harry's own terms. AND, by the end, Sirius is close by, and Hedwig is still there. But the weakening-theory - yes, I suppose it holds. The end of school year- hasn't Harry spent 9 months or 3/4 of a year away from Dursleys at that point - At Hogwarts? He only spends SUMMER with them... Except that I suppose even that's getting less and less... Well, with Harry's increasing freedom so far - is Sirius' freedom (increased as more people know he's innocent) - only way Harry's relative freedom at Dursleys can increase, by getting Harry away from them for good? Repeating pattern with Dursleys - well, at least it has developed - but if it can't develop, it has to go... -- Finwitch From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Fri May 9 22:30:33 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 22:30:33 -0000 Subject: Favorite books/Sirius Black/ Cedric taking crap/Godric's Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57480 Re: the discussion about our favorite books Honestly, the first time I read PoA, I *hated* it. And actually, this is a testament to JKR's ability as a writer. She had me so completely and totally convinced that Sirius was evil that I was *angry* when I found out he wasn't. I was so used to thinking otherwise that it upset me. (Much in the same way I'd be upset if Lupin or someone else I firmly believe to be good turns out to be evil instead). Other than that, the only comments I can contribute to this conversation is that I could never choose! I've given it considerable thought and just can't pick a favorite book. Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > > > Sirius Black is whatever Fudge needs him to be. Also keep in mind that people are willing to give more concessions and are more manipulable when they are afraid. Sirius makes a good bogeyman. And to cover all bases, Voldemort does not because he is *too* scary. Voldemort, either overtly or through showing the MoM is unable to protect the people, could undermine Fudge's power base. Sirius Black, right now, cannot. However, if he were no longer the perfect scapegoat, could, and I'm not sure if Fudge has realized that. > > > Now me (Laura): On a related sidenote, what happened to this whole Sirius Black paranoia? We know that the dementors were removed from the castle because of the near miss with Harry and the Kiss. But apparently, the entiring wizarding world has forgotten about Sirius in the month or two we have between PoA ending and GoF beginning. Molly Weasley cries out when Sirius reveals himself in the hospital wing in GoF, indicating that she still thinks he's a DE, but other than that, there are no references to any concerns about him. The betrayer of the Potters, the man who'd give everything to have LV back and wants the hero of the WW dead escapes from possibly the most heavily guarded and dreadful prison in all of history- and after exactly one Hogwarts school year (i.e., the length of one book) everyone just forgets and stops caring? Ok, probably just convenient for JKR, but still, it bugs me. Kelly Grosskreutz also wrote: (Re: her comment about Cedric taking crap from the Gryffindors) > > > Ok, maybe I worded that badly. But they still said some pretty mean things about him and didn't seem to want to give him a chance simply because of the Quidditch match the previous year. This attitude annoyed me, which prompted my comment. > > > Laura again: OK, so I'm too lazy to go get my books out, but I'd like to point out that Fred and George don't think too highly of Cedric since *before* that match. When the Gryffindor team is preparing for the match against Hufflepuff, Wood mentions Diggory, and the girls get all giggly. The boys become annoyed and ask what they mean, and one of them says something like, "he's the tall, handsome one, right?" and another responds with "strong and silent." And more giggles ensure. However, one of the Weasley twins comments that he's only so silent because he's "too thick" to be able to string two words together. We rarely, rarely see the twins say things like this, and I'm going to chalk it up to jealousy. The girls get giggly simply at the mention of Cedric's name, and they are simply jealous. (Especially for Fred if his feelings for Angelina go back that far). They react out of jealousy because Cedric is regarded as handsome. IMHO, the same goes for Seamus(?)'s comment about Cedric being a "pretty boy." When Harry is made champion, he is given crap for the *same exact reasons* But he gets it tenfold because, let's face it, "The Boy Who Lived" (and based on physical descriptions, is probably regarded as fairly attractive by at least *some* witches) holds more weight than the just-plain-handsome Cedric. Not that I excuse the behavior. But I don't think it goes any further than simple teenage jealousy. Katrina: (Re: Who was at Godric's Hollow?) > > > What if the voice Harry hears in the presence of the boggart/dementor is his own voice? What if Harry comes back to that night in order to help his parents and gets killed by Lord Voldemort while gaining some time for Lily and baby Harry? He knows where the Potters were hiding, the Fidelius Charm was already broken, he has used a Time Turner before... it makes awful sense... As I said before, I don't like this theory but couldn't keep it to myself.So what if the mere presence of his future self in that tragic night has the power to prevent his past self from being killed? Nasty theory though... > > > Laura again: Um...wait. I'm not sure this makes so much sense. Because if he'd gotten killed by LV, wouldn't his shadow/echo thing come out of the wand? Unless he switched bodies with his father or something, which is just plain weird. Not to mention it'd give me about as many headaches as the TT conversations do. Besides, even if TT!Harry went back and gave Lily more time to save BabyHarry...well, what good would that do in defeating LV once and for all? Unless he'd already beaten LV and had to go back and save himself to make sure he was around to beat LV in the first place. But then it'd be a melodramatic and awkward plot development. Ack. I'm making a TimeTravel arguement. Let's just end this now then. =) My own personal theory, which I posted awhile back, is that Snape was there. It was really a theory as much as a suggestion. However, in Harry's first night at Hogwarts, he has a dream with a blinding flash of light and a cold, high-pitched laugh. In the dream...I think Draco is laughing? But eventually the laughing person transforms into Snape. Is it possible that Harry's subconcious made this connection because he simply equates evil with evil and thinks Snape to be evil? Or is it because Harry actually remembers Snape being there? Just a thought. But that's still my story. And I'll probably stick too it-unless something more interesting comes along, anyway. =) -Laura From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 9 22:34:58 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 00:34:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius know?? References: Message-ID: <002901c3167b$39f48320$8b016750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57481 I (Izaskun) asked: > Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a >Gryffindor?? The night he entered the castle he went straight away to the >Gryffindor Rooms, but how could he know that Ron, and therefore Pettigrew, >were in gryffindor house?. In the daily prophet article about the weasleys, >the one Sirius read and gave him the clue about Pettigrew, it wasn't >mentioned they were all gryffindors, only that 5 of the children attended >the school. > Janet answered: He didn't *know,* but it was a good guess, because he *did* know that James was in Gryffindor. We know that families tend to favor one house (cf. Lucius and Draco), and that the houses select for characteristics which James could suppose had been passed down from father to son. Besides, it was the only house whose location and layout he knew for sure (assuming he was in Gryffindor himself, which I believe although I don't remember any canon on the subject), and so a good place to start. If he hadn't found Ron there, he would probably have tried other places, which would have been more difficult. Me again (izaskun) yes, but the second time he went directly to Ron's bed, he ripped the hangings of the bed... I keep wondering.... CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 9 22:36:39 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 00:36:39 +0200 Subject: How did Sirius know?? Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius find Harry? References: Message-ID: <003001c3167b$7608e9f0$8b016750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57482 Mycropht wrote: I believe that Crookshanks told him. Crookshanks stole the passwords for him to get into Gryffindor. We know that Crookshanks had an obvious dislike for Scabbers. me (Izaskun): Good point, I think you must be right. I had not thought about Crookshanks. Thank you cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 9 23:02:29 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 23:02:29 -0000 Subject: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins/Multi ple Riddles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Coble, Katherine" wrote: I believe there is also a statement LV makes in the graveyard > at Little Hangleton that his father returned to his Muggle family. My > assumption has been all along that the 3 Riddles who died at Little > Hangleton were LV's grandfather, grandmother and and father. The teenage > boy in the vicinity was, in my assumption, young LV just out of Hogwarts > flexing his Wizard Muscle. > Kirstini: Urg. Sorry folks. I think I'd actually processed this one myself on second reading of GoF and forgotton it. What I was responding to was the part of the Ginny-is-LV's-mother theory where it was suggested that Tom Riddle wouldn't try and kill Ginny aged 11 if she was going to turn into his mother. How embarrassing. I've gone a bit red, although none of you can see it. However, I stick by my statement that Harry couldn't possibly be LV's father because of the significance of the graveyard scene/ bone of the father malarky. Kirstini (dissolving slowly into her seat) From Vera.Nazarov at sjeccd.cc.ca.us Fri May 9 22:46:04 2003 From: Vera.Nazarov at sjeccd.cc.ca.us (selkie1964) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 22:46:04 -0000 Subject: Why DD lets Snape be [a nasty git] (WAS Teachers and fairness) In-Reply-To: <20030502110358.26824.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57484 Perhaps Snape has tenure. I work in an educational institution and let me tell you, once a teacher has tenure here, it's almost impossible to get rid of him/her unless they commit an illegal act. In fact, it's damn difficult (if not impossible) to get them to change their teaching methods and ways of interacting with students. The Faculty Association (union) here is *very* strong. We have one teacher who makes a constant practice of embarrassing and belittling students in his classes. His retention rate is abysmal and so is his student success rate. However, he has tenure and is firmly convinced that he is the only person in the department who has high enough standards and teaches the subject correctly, so no matter how many students complain (and they do, constantly) and no matter how many students withdraw from his classes (and they do, at an alarming rate), he continues all of his unsuccessful classroom practices and there's really nothing anyone can do about it except wait for him to retire. If he were to get fired, he would sue the school and probably win. Vera From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri May 9 23:54:57 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 23:54:57 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sort me -- FILK! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57485 Cindy Wrote: >Hmmm. Now that you mention it, I can't think of any relationship >between types of posts here on the list and the four Hogwarts >Houses. We have FILKS, fanfic posts, shipping posts and TBAY posts >(with or without acronyms). I have a hard time figuring out a link >between those posting styles and Hogwarts Houses, except that fans >of each type would probably wish to be sorted Gryffindor. ;-) Maybe we can come up with our own HP4GU Houses, eh? :)> >But as we all join hands here on HPfGU and hum "Kumbaya" together, >perhaps we should resolve to demonstrate our appreciation for the >variety in posting styles by posting in a form we've never used >before. Does that TBAY post I wrote about Banging Ships count as a shipping post? And what qualifies as a fanfic post? Hmmmmmm...I wonder... >For me, that would be a **FILK.** So here goes my very first (and >most likely last) FILK: Congrats on your first Filk, Captain. Y'know, something you mentioned above inspired me to write this Filk right here, though I know the tune has been done once before: Voldemort, My Lord (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _Kumbaya_ ) Midi and Original Lyrics here: http://www.easyweigh.com/kumbaya.htm Dedicated to Cindy The Deatheater Chorus (holding hands and singing and gently swaying together under the greenish glow of a Dark Mark which illuminates the evening sky): Vol-de-mort, my lord, Vol-de-mort, Vol-de-mort, my lord, Vol-de-mort,Vo-de-mort, my lord, Vol-de-mort Dark Lord, Vol-de-mort Wizards frightened, Vol-de-mort, wizards frightened, Vol-de-mort, wizards frightened, Vol-de-mort Dark Lord, Vol-de-mort Foes are conquered , Vo-de-mort, foes are conquered, Vol-de-mort, foes are conquered, Vol-de-mort Dark Lord, Vo-de-mort Mudbloods tortured, Vol-de-mort, Mudbloods tortured, Vol-de-mort, Mudbloods tortured, Vol-de-mort Dark Lord, Vol-de-mort Muggles dieing, Vo-de-mort, Muggles dieing, Vo-de-mort, Muggles dieing, Vol-de-mort Dark Lord, Vo-de-mort -Gail B...who was feeling a bit depressed until just a few moments ago. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lissbell at colfax.com Fri May 9 22:49:01 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 15:49:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculation on Tom Riddle's origins/Multiple Riddles References: Message-ID: <3EBC305D.12935974@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57486 Kirstini wrote: > WHY WHY WHY does > everyone assume that the dead women identified as "Mrs Riddle" is > Voldemort's mother? READ. LOOK. > GoF (UK paperback) p7-8. > ...a maid had entered the house to find all three Riddles dead. > ...Elderly Mr and Mrs Riddle had been rich, snobbish and > rude, and their grown up son Tom even more so. > CoS (UK paperback) - p231 > "You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for > ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, > through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common Muggle > who abandoned me before I was born, just because he found out his > wife was a witch?" > - p182 > "My mother died just after I was born, sir. They told me at the > orphanage that she lived just long enough to name me Tom after my > father..." > > RIGHT. So, we have now established a) that Preggers!Ginny is not a > plausible solution, as the Weasleys are certainly not Slytherin's > heirs. Ditto Hermione, before you all start. Lissa replied: Hi, Kirstini. Sorry about the long, untrimmed quote. I kept everything you wrote above because I didn't feel any of it could be snipped without damaging your meaning. I don't assume that the "Mrs. Riddle" referred to in the text is Voldemort's mother. Not at all. (Maybe you're replying to someone else's response to my post, but I don't see a message that directly addresses this material. If I've overlooked one, I apologize for awkwardly trying to answer you here.) As for Voldemort's pronouncements that he gets his Slytherin blood from his mother's side, I have no doubt whatsoever that he believes this! He believes, after all, that his father is a muggle. He *has* to conclude the powerful Slytherin blood was given to him by his witch mother. I don't think it's logical to conclude his dead mother who merely had breath to give him a name also bequeathed him a nice family tree tracing her full genetic history all the way back to Salazar. If she had, presumably he'd have gone to live with kindly relatives rather than suffering in an orphanage. I truly don't assume that the Weasleys are related to Slytherin, but I don't think it's impossible that they could be. Honestly, I don't think it makes much of a difference one way or another. I think this relates to the difference between calling Riddle the "only" descendant of Slytherin versus the "last" descedant of Slytherin. Last can suggest "last remaining", but it can also simply mean "most recent". If my theory is true, then the yet-to-be-born Tom Riddle would certainly be the current last descendant--at least from a generational point of view. Of course... (smile and cringe) you seem to think my theory is really absurd. Believe me, Kirstini, I can see why you think that! I really don't disagree. It is terribly far-fetched. (laughs) I also think it might be true. And yes, Voldemort's mother names him Tom "after his father". This doesn't mean that this dead mother was either honest or correct in claiming Tom Riddle Sr is Voldemort's father. If Ginny went back with a dark agenda to set the events of Tom Riddle's life into place, then she certainly isn't going to name her son "Harry" even if Harry is the boy's father. If she went back attempting to help Harry but had her memories altered with a spell, she may be an honest pawn in a large cruel game. (We simply have too few facts regarding LV's mother for me to do anything but speculately pointlessly here.) In short, I think it's reasonable to assume Voldemort believes what he says. That doesn't mean he's correct. Maybe I'm missing a bit of your point, though. In particular, I suspect I may have overlooked something in regard to your reference to "Mrs. Riddle." Please let me know. Kirstini wrote: > b) Tom Riddle(hereafter referred to as LV, before it all gets > confusing) did not kill his mother. She was already dead. Lissa replied: Hmm, you might be referencing a message that I have yet to receive. If you are addressing my post, then I guess I'll just say I don't think Voldemort killed his mother. Kirstini wrote: > c) The "grown up son" is not necessarily Voldemort/Riddle, as he was > abandoned by his father. "Their" son, remember. First wife is dead. > As Riddle remarried, and blanked out all traces of previous > wife/child, isn't it possible that he would restart the tradition of > naming the eldest son after the father, effectively erasing LV? If > not, then "grown-up son LV" must have done a lot of grovelling to > get back in with the family. The villagers seem to know him quite > well, so he must have been around for some time. Lissa replied: You're completely right, of course. I've personally not assumed the "grown up son" in this scene is Voldemort. I've actually assumed the opposite. I infer that you think this makes my theory impossible, so I know I'm missing some of your meaning here. I can be a bit dim-witted at times. Sorry! I swear I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I'd try to give a better answer if I understood... (winces shamefully) Kirstini wrote: > Now, two other points occur to me. > d) A *teenage* boy was seen near the Riddle house on the day of the > murder. If my theory is correct, the second Tom Riddle, already > grown-up, should be younger than the first, not older. Therefore, if > this teenage boy is the young LV, and not a time-travelling Harry, > then some other kind of time-slip must have happened (can the time- > turner go forward too, do we think?) Lissa replied: I've always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the teenage boy was Voldemort. As for time-traveling to the future, Hermione notes in PoA that time-traveling wizards have inadvertently killed both their past and future selves by mistake. It makes me terribly jumpy to even *consider* a fictional universe that allows people to pop forward in time, but Hermione's statement does suggest the possibility. Of course, she might also just be saying that the time-traveling wizards set events into place that ended up--after the normal flow of time--killing the wizards' future selves. Kirstini wrote: > e)Of course Harry isn't LV's father. LV has to take "bone of the > father" in order to come back to life, and he takes it from *Tom > Riddle*'s grave. I'd imagine these big important spells would > require exact ingrediants, ie the correct DNA. Lissa replied: Yes, you're completely right. I think this is terribly important and I really *really* should have addressed it directly in my first post. In my opinion, the ritual was completed with alterations Voldemort didn't intend. Rather than the blood of an enemy and the bone of the father, he has the bone of an enemy and the blood of the father. Now either way, a physical sample of Voldemort's father is there, but not in the way that LV intends. This may have disastrous ramifications for LV that he can't anticipate, but which Dumbledore--assuming he knows the truth--can. Then again, you could also argue that this is evidence my theory is impossible. I guess it depends on how much room for alteration magical rituals have. It's my belief that slightly wrong ingredients would not render a spell useless. Rather, they would just offer different results. (To elaborate: Say eye of newt and tongue of bird in a base of goat's blood give you a giggling potion. What happens if you mix this up and put eye of bird and tongue of newt into the base instead? You still might have a magical potion, but it wouldn't be what you intended.) Re-reading this whole section in GoF now, the biggest phrase that sticks out to me--that could potentially conflict with my theory--is a statment of LV's: "My mother, a witch who lived here in this village..." This implies--though doesn't outright state--that Voldemort's mother was a resident of the town and not just a woman who has passed through. If Harry did not go back with Ginny, her window of opportunity to meet and fall in love with or dupe Riddle Sr would be less than 9 months. This doesn't sound like the description of a witch who "lived here in this village". Then again... it's a bit odd to believe a witch would live--presumed by townspeople like Tom Sr to be a muggle--outside of the wizarding world for long periods. Also, it's a bit odd that she doesn't have family around who would have been willing to take little Tom in when Tom Sr wanted nothing to do with him. I don't claim I have absolute faith in my theory. Far from it! I appreciate the feistiness of your response. If my theory is canonically insupportable I need to know it so I can pitch the thing and find another. :) Thanks for the reply! Cheers, Lissa From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Fri May 9 23:16:18 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 23:16:18 -0000 Subject: James Potter Dead???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peggybaratto" > Joe, > We have been told by Dumbledore that these were not ghosts, or the > spirits of the dead--they were just shadows. > If they are only shadows of the people who died, why would they not > take on the appearances of the bodies that died? > I don't honestly know how I feel about the theory, though I do think > it is interesting, and well thought out. > If Lily did perform this "switch"--why would her shadow give her > away? I mean if it did happen, would it not be kept as a secret? > ~~~~~~~~Peggy Yes, I remember hearing about that at well but apparently my memory was on vacation when I was writing that post. I suppose the whole James/Remus switch bit is possible then, but assuming Lily knew (which she admitably might have not, though I find it hard to believe James wouldn't tell her), and that the shade we saw contains some of her memories (Frank's did, he at least knew how he died and that Voldemort was really a wizard), it makes a certain amount of sense that her shade would know as well. To contradict myself slightly, it occurs to me now that even if all of the above were true, Lily's shade might not tell Harry "Remus is coming" because it would shock him, perhaps even enough to drop his wand and break the connection. *shrugs*. This whole bit gets more confusing by the minute. :-) Joe S. From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Fri May 9 22:54:23 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 22:54:23 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius find Harry? Confusion! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cgbrennan2003" wrote: > I don't know if this has already been discussed, since I'm new (so > please forgive me) but how did Sirius find Harry? If, and it seems > this is the general consensus, that Arabella Figg is Harry's secret > keeper, no one should have been able to find him. In PofA, p. 205, > Fudge explains that the secret "...is henceforth impossible to find - > unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long > as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the > village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find > them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" Well, maybe there are some exceptions to that rule. You've got to admit, Fudge isn't the best of sources on the matter, incompetant windbag that he is. I mean, living as Muggles, Lily and James had to interact with the muggle world. Go the store, maintain muggle appearances (having a car, doing yardwork, that sort of thing). That could be explained off with something like "Oh, the Secret-Keeping business doesn't work on muggles because they aren't a danger." or something along those lines. But what happens if your Secret Keeper gets killed? Does that make it impossible for anyone to find you...and in that case how do you do busniess in the Wizarding World, or are you sealed away from it forever? The idea that just struck me is this - the spell that creates Secret Keepers works specifically against the enemies of the people with the secret. However, there's no guarantee that the Secret Keeper chosen isn't among that group of enemies, and thus we have what happened with Wormtail and the Potters. This whole bit is rather confusing to me as well, I admit. - Joe S. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat May 10 00:35:28 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 00:35:28 -0000 Subject: Not the Fidelius Charm! /minor OotP Spoiler (was: How did Sirius find Harry?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57489 "cgbrennan2003" wrote: I don't know if this has already been discussed, since I'm new (so please forgive me) but how did Sirius find Harry? If, and it seems this is the general consensus, that Arabella Figg is Harry's secret keeper, no one should have been able to find him. Me: Well, first of all, there isn't anything even close to a 'consensus' on Mrs. Figg being Harry's Secret Keeper, or Harry having a Secret Keeper at all. Many, many folks think the Fidelius Charm is the last thing likely to be protecting Harry on Privet Drive. It seems to be a cycle that every five or six months or so, folks propose this idea and then other folks give the many reasons why this probably isn't so. In GoF, Voldemort says: "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there..." In Message 44960, I said in part: This strongly implies a more esoteric spell than the Fidelius Charm, which I believe Voldemort would identify by name if that were the source of protection. There is another argument for it being a different spell as well: Dumbledore is unlikely to use the very spell that resulted in Harry's parents' deaths, as he is painfully aware of the fallibility of Fidelius. The Secret Keeper is the weak link. He clearly needed to do something more drastic than use the Fidelius Charm to protect Harry, and it's worked. The Fidelius Charm is never called "an ancient magic" in PoA. I believe Voldemort is talking about something else entirely. "cgbrennan2003" wrote: In PofA, p. 205. Fudge explains that the secret "...is henceforth impossible to find -unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know- Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" "guardianapcelt" wrote: Well, maybe there are some exceptions to that rule. You've got to admit, Fudge isn't the best of sources on the matter, incompetant windbag that he is. Me: Take away the Fidelius Charm, and there is no need for an exception. If the 'ancient magic,' the nature of which I'm sure we'll learn in OotP when Dumbledore tells Harry 'everything,' (there's my OotP spoiler) has the effect of only keeping dark wizards away, then that would explain why all of the other 'good' magical people were able to get to Privet Drive with no problem: Dobby (who isn't a wizard anyway, and so can't be a dark wizard), Ron and the twins (twice) Mr. Weasley (once) and presumably the members of the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad who had to puncture Aunt Marge and alter her memory. None of these people should have been able to find Harry's home if he'd been protected by the Fidelius Charm. It is quite clear that Dumbledore has moved on to something far better. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From hp at plum.cream.org Sat May 10 01:18:28 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:18:28 +0100 Subject: How did Sirius know?? In-Reply-To: References: <001b01c31673$fb64e750$8b016750@takun> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030510013118.0096adb0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57490 >fridwulfa wrote: > >Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a >Gryffindor?? The night he entered the castle he went straight away to >the Gryffindor Rooms, but how could he know that Ron, and therefore >Pettigrew, were in gryffindor house?. In the daily prophet article >about the weasleys, the one Sirius read and gave him the clue about >Pettigrew, it wasn't mentioned they were all gryffindors, only that 5 >of the children attended the school. and CGBrennan answered: >Sirius told Harry, Ron, and Hermione that he had become friends with >Crookshanks; I just assumed that the cat told him! (...finally, I >managed to communicate to him what I was after, and he's been helping >me..." p. 364 "...so he stole the passwords into Gryffindor Tower for >me..." True, except that it took some time for Sirius and Crookshanks to arrive at their "understanding". The attack on the Fat Lady was on Hallowe'en, whilst the password incident wasn't until February. I assume that fridwulfa is referring to the first incident. Let's look at what immediately preceded the end of that quote from Sirius: "He's the most intelligent of his kind I've ever met. He recognized Peter for what he was right away. And when he met me, he knew I was no dog. It was a while before he trusted me...." Whilst it's unclear when they met or just how long "a while" is, Crookshanks was constantly trying to get at Scabbers, and the fact that Sirius tried to break into Gryffindor Tower by brute force two months into the school year would indicate that he didn't have someone "one the inside" helping him at that stage. It certainly sounds to me unlikely that Sirius and Crookshanks will have met and agreed strategies by that time. Sirius tries to get past the Fat Lady during the Hallowe'en feast because he knows that all the pupils would be in the Hall during that time, which again makes it unlikely that he already had Crookshanks on his side. Back to the original question, though: as I said above, I assume that "fridwulfa" is referring to that first attack, as by the the time of the second, Sirius has been around for half a year and would've seen the Weasleys among the Gryffindors at some stage (especially as he's interested in Harry for separate reasons and would've watched him, and Harry and Ron are rarely far apart). Whilst that's a pretty safe assumption, a possibly less safe one is that the first attack *does* occur two months into the school year, and whilst Harry hasn't noticed the black dog hanging around the grounds by that stage (the first time he notices Snuffles is during the Hufflepuff match), Sirius has been hanging around the Hogwarts grounds all that time. In those two months, he could easily have ascertained that Ron was a Gryffindor. Dogs have good hearing, and people say all kinds of things. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, getting ready for bed, so no more tonight on several other posts lined up for replies. From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 10 01:26:55 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 01:26:55 -0000 Subject: Fred and George and the battle of the sexes (was Cedric taking crap) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57491 > > Laura again: > OK, so I'm too lazy to go get my books out, but I'd like to point out > that Fred and George don't think too highly of Cedric since *before* > that match. When the Gryffindor team is preparing for the match > against Hufflepuff, Wood mentions Diggory, and the girls get all > giggly. The boys become annoyed and ask what they mean, and one of > them says something like, "he's the tall, handsome one, right?" and > another responds with "strong and silent." And more giggles ensure. > However, one of the Weasley twins comments that he's only so silent > because he's "too thick" to be able to string two words together. We rarely, rarely see the twins say things like this, and I'm going to chalk it up to jealousy. The girls get giggly simply at the mention of Cedric's name, and they are simply jealous. (Especially for Fred if his feelings for Angelina go back that far). They react out of jealousy because Cedric is regarded as handsome. Now me: (Darrin) This is a stereotypical -- but like many stereotypes, there is a grain of truth -- portrayal of what happens when boys and girls play a co-educational sport. The boys are plotting strategy, getting worked up by saying things like: "Get the snitch or die trying!" The girls are giggling over how cute the opponent is. Having played in co-educational events, I can safely tell you that this drives the men absolutely up the wall. Fred and George responded how many men would have. Jealously played a part, but frustration over the girliness in their midst also did. Any woman that watches American football with me knows not to comment on butts. I return the favor by not drooling over Jennifer Aniston when we watch "Friends." Such is the bedrock of solid relationships. Now, with the era of Title IX in America and the rise of more female professional sport leagues, this stereotype is certainly less and less accurate. Darrin -- never once ogled my female opponents. Never. Honest. Truly. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat May 10 02:15:17 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 22:15:17 EDT Subject: Multiple Muggleborns? Message-ID: <1a3.14837081.2bedbab5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57492 Muggleborn wizards are supposed to be a fairly uncommon occurance, right? Isn't it odd that the Creevy family has *two* wizards? Both Colin and Dennis have magic. Not all children who have a magical sibling are magical (Petunia and Lily for example....). Am I wrong then? Is Mrs. Creevy a witch? I don't think so, because in CoS the only people attacked were Muggleborns; however, there's always a chance I'm misinterpreting it. Back to my original question: Is having multiple Muggleborns in one family odd? Should it be? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ I'm thinking S.P.E.W. would be a good band name.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Sat May 10 02:36:41 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 22:36:41 -0400 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EBC65B9.9060808@Dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57493 I was wondering (while considering what Harry would do if he got expelled), what is Harry going to do when he graduates? Someone mentioned a few weeks ago that young wizards most likely stay at their parents' houses for a year or two after graduation when their first jobs are not all that good, as many people do in the muggle world. But Harry most definitely does not want to keep staying with the Dursleys once he becomes, for all practical purposes, an adult. But he also doesn't really have anywhere to go in the wizarding world, except to possibly move in with the Weasleys for a while. Maybe he and Ron will share a bachelor pad together ;o) Aside from that, considering that Harry is so important for some as yet undisclosed reason, it doesn't seem to me that DD would just say: "Congratulations, Harry. Good luck with your life," as he basically does to all other students who graduate (figuratively speaking). I'm sure DD has big plans for Harry. So where does DD plan on Harry living once he graduates? And what sort of career path is Harry likely to follow? Politition? Auror? Teacher? Quidditch star? Hmmmmmm. --Dan From meboriqua at aol.com Sat May 10 02:53:10 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:53:10 -0000 Subject: General Stereotypes (was: Fred and George and the battle of the sexes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57494 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: >The boys are plotting strategy, getting worked up by saying things like: "Get the snitch or die trying!" > >The girls are giggling over how cute the opponent is. > >Having played in co-educational events, I can safely tell you that this drives the men absolutely up the wall. Fred and George responded how many men would have. Jealously played a part, but frustration over the girliness in their midst also did.> Ah, stereotypes. JKR writes them so well. It is possibly the only criticism I have of HP in general, but I can justify it. Darrin, your intense loathing of All Things Slytherin feeds right in. We all know that JKR did *not* write these books for children (right, Penny? You'll back me on this as I'm going for one of your pet peeves), but there are elements of her writing that seem to be targeting kids. The portrayal of the Dursleys is one - you know, the good kid with the bad family who finds out he can get away from them... very fairy tale-ish. Characterizing all of the Slytherins as jerks who will be evil is also a bit childish. In reality, people are not generally simply good or bad. You may think so-and-so is just peachy but so-and-so has been a real shmuck to me. This is why I'd like to see JKR take a different direction with Draco. Make him a coward who can't use Cruciatius on another! Turn him against Dear Old Dad! Let us find out his secret ambition is to run an inn in Hogsmeade! Or make him what he'd be in real life: a spoiled, unsuccessful, completely dependent on Dad to bail him out kind of guy, not a leading DE. As of now, the Slytherins pretty much always do what we expect them to and I'd like to see something different. The girly giggling is definitely another irritating stereotype. I *hated* when the girls were pointing and giggling at Harry when McGonagall told her students about the upcoming Yule Ball. The giggling when Cedric's name was mentioned wasn't much better. I'm glad that Cedric himself was not the stereotype of the handsome jock and that Cho's characterization reveals her to be mature and respectful. Most of the time JKR's characterization is multi-dimensional and full of surprises but there are a few areas that do seem to be black and white and a little too simple to be written for adults. --jenny from ravenclaw, who now always reviews my posts for potential band names. See any, Darrin? ************ From grace701 at yahoo.com Sat May 10 03:24:31 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (Greicy de los Santos) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 20:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: <1052521635.60392.32412.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030510032431.3621.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57495 > Mycropht wrote: I was flipping through the polls, and I noticed the poll about > which book everyone likes best. Right now, the results are: > > > PS/SS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > CoS -- 42 votes, 4.11% > PoA -- 573 votes, 56.12% > GoF -- 364 votes, 35.65% > > Not much to argue about there -- PoA rules! ;-) > >I haven't voted yet, but I must say that I perfer PoA/GoF as a >unit, actually. >I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that >causes people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. And, >uh, what is it that makes either of those two more enjoyable >than PoA? > >I think that those who prefer PS/SS & CoS might like them >because they are >more stand-alone. The arc was just beginning and those two >books are more >childlike in their approach. It starts getting "Real" with PoA >and definitely turns quite serioius in GoF. I imagine that >ultimately all 7 will hang together well, but there is no doubt >when reading them as a unit that you are riding the coaster up >the hill in the first two books. My book preference go by this order: PoA, GoF, SS/PS, and CoS. I love PoA because we experience character development; we learn more about what happened the night of James and Lily's death; we are introduced to Lupin and Sirius; we find out one reason out of my many reasons, I'm sure, for Snape to be a jerk; Hermione's "Bad Day" in which she slaps Malfoy (classic moment); all of the Shrieking Shrack scene; all of the Time Turner scene; and for those subtle H/H moments ;-). My least favorite is CoS because I don't know. I just don't feel as though there is much going on even though there is. I feel like there are parts that can be skipped. Which sucks because according to JKR CoS has clues to the rest of the series! It drives me crazy because I can't find anything! Greicy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 10 03:57:51 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:57:51 -0000 Subject: General Stereotypes (was: Fred and George and the battle of the sexes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57496 Jenny, in calling me a bit childish, wrote: > > Ah, stereotypes. JKR writes them so well. It is possibly the only > criticism I have of HP in general, but I can justify it. Darrin, your > intense loathing of All Things Slytherin feeds right in. > oooh, nice foreshadowing... let's see how it goes. > Characterizing all of the Slytherins as jerks who will be evil is also > a bit childish. In reality, people are not generally simply good or > bad. You may think so-and-so is just peachy but so-and-so has been a > real shmuck to me. This is why I'd like to see JKR take a different > direction with Draco. Make him a coward who can't use Cruciatius on > another! Turn him against Dear Old Dad! Let us find out his secret > ambition is to run an inn in Hogsmeade! Or make him what he'd be in > real life: a spoiled, unsuccessful, completely dependent on Dad to > bail him out kind of guy, not a leading DE. As of now, the Slytherins > pretty much always do what we expect them to and I'd like to see > something different. > Since I don't want to jump to a conclusion, I'm going to respond in the style of the old Choose Your Own Adventure Books. Am I being referred to as a bit childish here? If so, please begin with the next two paragraphs. If not, please skip to the sentence beginning with the quote from your post. Remember, reading through will lessen your enjoyment in reading this post. So, you ask for the Slyths to do something different because they are predictable, but then you say, I'm wrong, AND a bit childish besides, for holding onto the belief that the Slyths we've met -- so far -- all seem to be without redeeming qualities? Don't call me childish based on what you WANT to happen, Jenny. That's just not fair. "In reality, people are not generally simply good or bad," Fair enough, but this ain't reality. It's the HP universe, and in that universe, the Slyths we've met -- with the exception of Snape, who grew up somewhere along the way -- have shown me very little evidence that I've set a broad, admittedly unforgiving, criteria here. I see the Slyth culture to be filled with racism and those that stand beside and let that happen are just as culpable. The Mudblood thing gets me angry every single time, as does the idea of Salazar leaving behind a Muggle-killing monster. It is genocide, plain and simple. I fully realize that off-screen, there could be Slytherin kids who are filled with disgust over Draco, or are hiding their Muggle-born nature, In a real school, there would likely be. But they aren't in canon. We have to go with what is in canon. > The girly giggling is definitely another irritating stereotype. I > *hated* when the girls were pointing and giggling at Harry when > McGonagall told her students about the upcoming Yule Ball. The > giggling when Cedric's name was mentioned wasn't much better. I'm > glad that Cedric himself was not the stereotype of the handsome jock > and that Cho's characterization reveals her to be mature and > respectful. Roger Ebert, the movie critic, once commented about a movie that had a lot of characters in it. He said that the movie depended, to a certain extent, on typecasting. We couldn't keep the characters straight any other way. As Cedric grew as a character, he got more developed. That kind of thing will happen. But some characters are just -- apparently, but who knows with JKRs penchant for surprise -- not appearing to be crucial enough. Lavender and the Partil girls, for instance, and Seamus and Dean, don't appear to be headed for complex characterhood. I do think we have to keep in mind we are talking about adolescents here -- and late-blooming ones at that, if Harry is just noticing women in the middle of his 14th year -- and some giggling is going to happen. This is the first time, really, that this group of kids interacted in a Mars-Venus kind of way. > --jenny from ravenclaw, who now always reviews my posts for potential > band names. See any, Darrin? ************ The Anti-Giggling Girls? And from me: The Choose Your Own Adventures? Darrin From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 10 04:18:48 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 00:18:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: General Stereotypes (was: Fred and George and the bat... Message-ID: <173.1a0221fd.2bedd7a8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57497 In a message dated 5/9/2003 10:58:25 PM Central Standard Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > I do think we have to keep in mind we are talking about adolescents here -- > and late-blooming ones at that, if Harry is just noticing women in the > middle of > his 14th year -- and some giggling is going to happen. This is the first > time, > really, that this group of kids interacted in a Mars-Venus kind of way. > Well to be honest he noticed Cho in his 3rd year. I don't have the book handy (its in the car and I'm in a lazy mood tonight) but POS said something about Cho making him feel funny in his stomach. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 10 06:46:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 06:46:10 -0000 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: <3EBC65B9.9060808@Dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57498 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan Delaney wrote: > I was wondering ..., what is Harry going to do when he graduates? > > ...edited... > > And what sort of career path is Harry likely to follow? Politition? > Auror? Teacher? Quidditch star? > > Hmmmmmm. > > --Dan bboy_mn: Like you, my first thought was Harry and Ron in a bachelor pad (a very small one considering real estate prices) in London. Alternate- * Harry moves in with Sirius in Sirius's historical family home. * Sirius is dead and Harry inherits Sirius's historical family home. * The Dursleys are dead and Harry inherits the Dursley family home. * Harry rebuilds his Gordric's Hollow home. * Dumbledore (or who ever) gives the Riddle mansion to Harry. * Harry is handsomely rewarded for getting rid of Voldemort once and for all, and doesn't need to worry about where he lives or what he does for work. What will Harry do for a job? Initially, Harry and Ron will be Aurors. Considering their history and fame gained from defeating Voldemort, they will become the most sought after Aurors in the world. They will travel far and wide helping magical communities with the magical problems; rouge trolls, rouge dragons, other assorted troublesome magical creatures, cursed people, places and things, fighting dark magic and minor dark wizards, etc.... Unknow to Harry, he has gained a 50% share in the ever growing Weasley enterprises. When Ron finds out Harry was the initial and primary investor in Weasley Enterprises, he starts investing too. Eventually they are filthy rich and quit being Aurors in favor of living the good life, and taking a minor part in the business affairs of the Weasley brothers businesses. Alternate- Harry, Ron, and Hermione, cashing in the fame they have gained from defeating Voldemort, start a magical consulting company and travel worldwide solving magical problems for people, businesses, industries, and governments. They all get filthy rich and live happily ever after. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Seriously, I think Harry's investment in the Weasley brothers business will end up turning into a very lucrative investment. I also suspect as their business takes off, the Weasley brother will begin to diversify and become one of the most successful and largest companies in the wizard world. That's my story and ... oh wait, I already said that. bboy_mn From petalla at express56.com Sat May 10 05:24:56 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 05:24:56 -0000 Subject: Why DD lets Snape be [a nasty git] (WAS Teachers and fairness) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57499 > > If he were to get fired, he would sue the school and probably win. > > Vera Vera, I went to a school where this indeed happened as well. This Prof. was a nightmare. He taught Romantic Poetry. He was in the college when my mother inlaw was a student (40 years ago) and he was old as well as crabby then. I had him around 12 years ago. I think he finally passed on about 3 years ago. He died of a brain tumor. The only way the teacher left the school was in a body bag. Truth. He comes to mind often when I read how Snape deals with his students. He had his favorites (which I was never one of). I remember he once said "Miss Blah blah, If I were you I would consider a different major, since you cannot write in the English language. If I were you, I would drop out completely." Snape tenured? I don't think so. I don't think the Hogwarts teachers need unions. Comical thought though! I still believe that Snape is difficult to those who need him to be difficult. These are the students who are up against the wall so to speak. Neville, Harmione, Harry, Ron, and even occasionally Seamus. ~~~~~Peggy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 10 07:23:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:23:58 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius know?? Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius find Harry? In-Reply-To: <001b01c31673$fb64e750$8b016750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > > Well, one more question about Sirius. How did he know Ron was a Gryffindor?? ...edited... > > Any thoughts??? > > Cbeers, Izaskun bboy_Mn: I'm of the impression that the Weasley family is well liked and well known, and I also suspect that 'What house were you in?' ranks near the top of this list of questions people ask when they meet each other. I think house affiliation is common knowledge, and it would be assumed that both Ron and Harry would be Gryffindors. Also, as someone else implied, Sirius may have been observing them for several weeks and learned which house Harry and Ron were in. Personally, I don't see Crookshanks and Snuffles/Sirius's conversation as a really detailed verbal conversasion. Certainly, like very intelligent dogs, Crookshanks might have been able to understand Sirius's intent, but I just don't see them having long conversations over tea ;). It is possible that Crookshanks lead Sirius directly to Ron's bed. Or they may have resolved it before hand. Sirius is certainly familiar with the layout of Gryffindor Tower and of the Dorm rooms, so he could have done something like sketch the room layout in the sand, and worked with Crookshanks until he was able to determine which bed was the correct one. But I see this as a combination of intuitive communication and a lot of point and nod communication. Just a thought. bboy_mn From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 07:33:13 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:33:13 -0000 Subject: JKR Said it's Descendant, not Ancestor (WAS: Tom Riddle's Origins) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57501 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > Lissa wrote: I don't think this is a contradiction. Dumbledore doesn't say "only" remaining ancestor of Slytherin, he very carefully uses the word "last". > > Phyllis in reply: > > In an October 2000 Scholastic interview, JKR admitted to making a > mistake by using "ancestor" instead of "descendant:" > > Q (from HPfGU!): "Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of > Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin?" > > JKR: "Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should > read 'descendent.' That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep > hold of the 'ancestor' one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!)" > British HPfGU listees have clarified that JKR's use of the > phrase "deliberate error" is intended to signify her admission that > she unintentionally goofed and is now owning up to her error, > rather than that she intentionally tried to mislead her readers. > Hi Phyllis, Curious that in spite of what the British Listees interpret JK's meaning to be. Rowling herself instructs us not to ignore the original "mistake" text. As the term "ancestor", in relation to Voldies acsendency/descendence of Salazar Slytherin, may yet be useful. How inconcievable is it that he may be both? (By the way). Although the listees that you have quoted do not recommend it, I feel it is pertinent that we still consider the quote "deliberate error" in its literal context, and not only relatively. Even if we never want to believe it, the probability that it was meant literally is not, IMO, negatably low. Valky From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 10 07:49:19 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:49:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Said it's Descendant, not Ancestor (WAS: Tom Ridd... Message-ID: <17d.1ab57b22.2bee08ff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57502 In a message dated 5/10/2003 2:34:27 AM Central Standard Time, valkyrievixen at yahoo.com writes: > ****Curious that in spite of what the British Listees interpret JK's > meaning to be. Rowling herself instructs us not to ignore the > original "mistake" text. As the term "ancestor", in relation to > Voldies acsendency/descendence of Salazar Slytherin, may yet be > useful.***** > If by that you mean JKR's use of the word *valuable* means that it is a clue that might be useful in the future I think you're mistaken. In this instance I'm 100% sure that she means *valuable* in a strictly in a monetary sense. First editions of books can become quite the collectors item as years pass and one containing an error that has been corrected in subsequent printings takes on a uniqueness and value all its own. If someone owns this edition and can get it autographed it value would increase. I recently saw a 1st edition of PS/SS selling for $100.00. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Fri May 9 23:02:30 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 23:02:30 -0000 Subject: Ginny's Time TRaveling (was Riddles Origins) Very FAn ficish In-Reply-To: <20030509165234.23428.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57503 Danielle Dassero wrote: > That would reality 1, reality 2 would have started the > minute Ginny was hurled back into time. OF course > allowing all the paradox that time traveling could > bring it would be possible that this could have > happen. We could say that someone saw that HArry's son > with Ginny was to be evil and bring down the fall of > WW, so they thought to get rid of Ginny but in doing > so they created the paradox, because they got rid of > Ginny they created LV. > > > If you want to know of a good example, there was a > great Twilight zone on UPN in the US, that dealt with > with the paradox of time travelling. > > OK this is long enough, I leave you guys to pick this > apart. LOL > Danielle, whose is unemployed which is why she can > spend time doing this. Interesting idea actually. Maybe a bit far fetched, but then again maybe not. There really is no way that it *can* be picked apart, because nothing you say goes against canon. Ah well, these are just my thoughts, and they're not worth that much to begin with :-) - Joe S. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 08:12:29 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:12:29 -0000 Subject: JKR Said it's Descendant, not Ancestor (WAS: Tom Ridd... In-Reply-To: <17d.1ab57b22.2bee08ff@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/10/2003 2:34:27 AM Central Standard Time, > > Melissa wrote: > I'm 100% sure that she means *valuable* in a strictly in a monetary sense. > Valky Ah, yes of course. Silly Valky. *slinks sheepishly away* From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sat May 10 08:20:22 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:20:22 -0000 Subject: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57505 Cindy wrote: > I'm a PoA fan, myself, but I was wondering what it is that causes > people to choose PS/SS over CoS or vice versa. And, uh, what is it > that makes either of those two more enjoyable than PoA? > > Opinions? Alice writes: I myself was astonished when I began my internet-harrying that CoS seemed to be the least-loved book of the four. It is my absolute favourite. Book One was interesting, I liked it pretty well, but CoS?! I was amazed, riveted. I loved every moment of it (excepting Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday Party, I could never warm to that for some reason), and some moments even more. When Harry has all those things on his mind, Dumbledore asks him if there's anything wrong, and he says... No. That's Harry for you. That's when I first thought: this little guy has his very own, complex character. That's when all my thoughts of cliche-children's-story ended. I FELT what he felt and that's always the beginning. Until then he was "the hero". From then on, he was Harry in his own right. Someone has recently pointed out several gaping plot holes on the movie list, about _the book_. Reading them, I must say I agree they exist. But I actually never thought of them until mentioned. I found the plot just about as surprising as it could ever be, and for that, I loved it (also, during my first read, I wasn't scrutinising the plot as we are here... the first read is always pure enjoyment, but that enjoyment has not faded with the umpteenth read either). The twist at the end was something that left me gaping. PoA was nothing of the sort - by that time the supposed bad guy not being the actual bad guy was nothing new to the series. Then of course there are characters like Lockhart, unbeatable. But mainly, my reasons are: the plot-twist, and Harry's character. Love, Alice ---should be studying political sciences at the moment From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 10:32:03 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:32:03 -0000 Subject: The Diary In-Reply-To: <001801c3166a$2019c4d0$2cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57506 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Valky (previously): >I am willing to concede that it is very likely that he (Dobby) was. >>(Baited into pursuing Harry at the beginning of COS) > Maria: >I can easily imagine *Draco* having a little joke and feeding Dobby >this tidbit of information in hopes of scaring Harry away from the >>school. Valky (Me): Nice take. I can see that happening. > Kelly: >My take: I always got the impression that Lucius was afraid Harry >would somehow ruin his plans, so wanted him out of the way so his >plans would go off without a hitch. Harry defeated Lucius's master. >>So, his plan is to keep Harry away from Hogwarts. Valky (Me): Ok. But I don't see Lucius giving Harry that much credit. I believe he feels threatened by Harry's potential, but, not by his present skill by a long shot. >Valky (previously): Re Lucius.. >There has been at least one occasion in the books >where he could have used magic, but, appeared to run like a coward. > Maria: > Well, what did you want him to do? Avada Kedavra Harry and/or Dobby, > like he tried in TCTMNBN II? I found that bit in the movie > ridiculous. Using an Unforgivable curse on the Boy Who Lived? I > mean,*honestly*. > > Kelly (me): > Don't even get me started on that scene. He would've been doing it > not only on The Boy Who Lived, but about five paces away from the > entry to Dumbledore's office. Lucius isn't dumb enough to do > anything there unless > he *really* wants to go visit Azkaban. > > Valky (Me): Yeop, I agree. Well almost. An unforgivable, Nooo. I never considered it. I agree he chose to be prudent, yes. When Dobby threatened him. Not before, however. He backed down from Dobby, IMHO, no question. Whether as a measure of tact, or an act of sheer cowardess. (I think some of both.) > Valky (previously): > > Hogwarts and Wizard homes are very separate things. The Diary > applied at Hogwarts, the protection act applied in Wizard Homes. > How did Lucius correlate the two? I ask. > > Maria: > It's very simple. >Valky (Me): Hey I argued that point last time! :p Is not! (Maria may now proceed to "Is too!" till the cows come home or preferably till June 21st. Val) > Maria: > What's the number-one item on Lucius's agenda? > Valky (Me): Power Gain. Second only to paying himself lip-service. Oh and in direct answer to your argument killing Muggleborns to discredit Arthur Weasley would help him there. > Kelly: > Here's my read on this whole thing. Arthur Weasley's department > has been stepping up the number of raids they have been > conducting. It was to a point where Lucius felt threatened by them > and so started selling some of his dark objects. He is confident > that Arthur's raiders won't find his > secret compartment (which they didn't the first time Malfoy Manor > was raided), but he is not liking this turn of events at all. He > also hears that Arthur is trying to get a Muggle Protection Act > passed, which runs contrary to Lucius's beliefs. > As for removing Dumbledore, Lucius might have had that in his > calculations as well, but I see this attack as being directed more > at Arthur Weasley and Muggle-borns in general. Valky (Me): Why such an elaborate Hogwarts centered plot against Arthur Weasley? Arthur had misused muggle artifacts himself. Couldn't he have dug up some dirt on the Weasleys. Why the Voldemort treasure for the sake of stopping a raid that, you say yourself, he believes he has already managed to elude. If he was seriously concerned that his drawing room stash would be discovered it would be more possible, but there are other measures he could take there, I am sure. There was a reason behind his motivation to use a weapon that would attack Muggleborn. I will put forward that on the issue of the Wizard community accepting Muggleborns, Lucius is a backseat driver. He is not a motivated campaigner for this issue politically at all. That is Voldemort and perhaps a few ardent agreeables, but certainly not Lucius. Don't get me wrong Lucius is a nasty bigot IMO, prejudice is his calling card. He wants to see the monster do away with the non pure-blood kind. How delectable a banquet for him. But he cares little about the cause. In that respect, success is inconsequential. He will rid the WW of this pox when he has dominated it. Dominating the WW is his prime agenda. He even dared so to use Voldemorts power to rise to this position. Voldemort knew he was being used but also used in return. "my slippery friend" ? I believe, applies. The weapon Lucius chose for this plot was "Voldemort". To me that is a power not likely to be chosen for a trivial motivation. IMHO Lucius could only have resorted to this extreme measure to get in an early attack on the most threatening thing to his rise to dominance in the WW. A fully qualified adult wizard Harry Potter on the side of good. He also wanted to shame Dumbledore and Arthur. So he orchestrated it to culminate in them taking the blame. Valky From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat May 10 12:09:00 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 05:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius know?? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030510013118.0096adb0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030510120900.34974.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57507 --- GulPlum wrote: > Back to the original question, though: as I > said above, I assume that > "fridwulfa" is referring to that first attack, > as by the the time of the > second, Sirius has been around for half a year > and would've seen the > Weasleys among the Gryffindors at some stage > (especially as he's interested > in Harry for separate reasons and would've > watched him, and Harry and Ron > are rarely far apart). Lynn: Also, Sirius may have remembered a redhead or two from when he was in school named Weasley as well. Given the timeline for Bill and Charley Weasley, it's certain Bill should have been at Hogwarts when Sirius was and possibily even Charlie could have been there as well. While it wouldn't be a guarantee, it would have given Sirius a place to start looking for Ron. Lynn (who'd love to see a bigger part for Bill just cuz he's, well there's no other word for it, cool) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sat May 10 11:54:06 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:54:06 -0000 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57508 Dan wrote: > I was wondering ..., what is Harry going to do when he graduates? > > ...edited... > > And what sort of career path is Harry likely to follow? Politition? > Auror? Teacher? Quidditch star? > > Hmmmmmm. > > bboy_mn wrote: > What will Harry do for a job? > > Initially, Harry and Ron will be Aurors. > Alternate- > Harry, Ron, and Hermione, cashing in the fame they have gained from > defeating Voldemort, start a magical consulting company and travel > worldwide solving magical problems for people, businesses, industries, > and governments. They all get filthy rich and live happily ever after. > Seriously, I think Harry's investment in the Weasley brothers business > will end up turning into a very lucrative investment. I also suspect > as their business takes off, the Weasley brother will begin to > diversify and become one of the most successful and largest companies > in the wizard world. Now me(Linda): I agree that all of the above are very real poosibilities but the one career choice that I belief Harry is destined to make is to become an Unspeakable. I have long fealt that this is what his parents were and I think he will follow his parents. (If this has been discussed before forgive me, I'm still kind of new.) Ever since we were introduceed to the job in GoF, I immediately connectted Harry's parents were connected to it. -Linda From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat May 10 12:24:26 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 05:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] General Stereotypes (was: Fred and George and the battle of the sexes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030510122426.18093.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57509 --- jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > The girly giggling is definitely another > irritating stereotype. I > *hated* when the girls were pointing and > giggling at Harry when > McGonagall told her students about the upcoming > Yule Ball. The > giggling when Cedric's name was mentioned > wasn't much better. > --jenny from ravenclaw, who now always reviews > my posts for potential > band names. See any, Darrin? Lynn: While I agree with most of this post, I think one thing to keep in mind is that giggling girls are extremely common at this age, at least they were when I was growing up. So, is this necessarily a stereotype or trying to portray actual behavior for the age. Take Angelina for example. She's giggling in PoA and yet in GoF when Fred asks her to the Yule Ball there isn't giggling but a smile. That suggests there has been some growth in maturity. Lynn (who thinks Cruciatius Cowards would be a cool band name herself, courtesy of Jenny's post, and wonders if Darrin minds if women comment on cute butts when he's watching basketball with them though they were much more obvious back in the 80s when the shorts were shorter and tighter) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From heidit at netbox.com Sat May 10 12:41:43 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:41:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Diary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57510 Kelly wrote: >I can easily imagine *Draco* having a little joke and feeding Dobby >this tidbit of information in hopes of scaring Harry away from the >>school. Valky replied: Nice take. I can see that happening. *** But we know from CoS, chapter 12 that Draco doesn't know what's going on. He tells Crabbe and Goyle that he has no idea who's behind it and that Lucius won't tell him about the last time the Chamber was opened. I suppose it's possible that he was lying to crabbe and goyle, perhaps because they're reporting what he says and does back to Lucius and he doesn't want Lucius to know, say, that he's been eavesdropping and thus Knows Things He Shouldn't. But if he's telling them the truth, then he doesn't know enough to have told Dobby to go to Harry. Of course, if he's lying to them, then perhaps his whole persona is an act and he's been helping Harry secretly and without Harry even being aware of it, as best he knows how. Heidi Tandy Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce http://www.FictionAlley.org From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 12:58:34 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:58:34 -0000 Subject: OK, The Portkey Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57511 Hi Everybody, *straightens ones shoulders and prepares for combat* I have a bone to pick with the GOF disassemblers among us. Why do we think that Crouch could have just made a portkey at anytime in GOF? He couldn't OK! *psyches up for the impending battle* The plot was devised precariously from the start. Lets ask ourselves the first question. Why did Voldemort see the Triwizard tournament as such an opportunity to get to Harry? Lets put ourselves in voldies baby booties for a moment. He wants to get Harry all to himself for a few moments so he can use him for his ritual and get rid of him. Bertha just told him that crouch is alive. Wormtail pipes up "Hey, Master, Why dont we get Barty to charm a portkey and plant it in Hogwarts for Harry to touch!" I would say that Voldemort sounds a little like Hermione when he replies "Aren't you ever going to read Hogwarts, a History? The castle is completely covered by all sorts of magical protection. You can't just smuggle a child out with a portkey you simplistic fool! However what was that you said about the Ministry of Magic holding a tournament Bertha?.............." Ahhh, says Voldemort the inadequate, controllable fools at the Head of the Ministry. Neither Hogwarts, nor Dumbledore will leave me a loophole to smuggle out a child but the blundering incompetents they'll no doubt put at the Helm of the Tri Wizard Tournament are bound to leave a veritable landscape of opportunities for me to infiltrate. Ok so Voldie is piqued somewhat and rushes back to europe for another round with Harry Potter. Lets analyse my argument a little I will try to pre empt some reactions this may cause. How did the ministry bypass Hogwarts and Dumbledores magic in their creation of the maze? I would suspect that Dumbledore granted them an extensive allow spell for the maze. Of course he would have his certain specific objections to particular brands of obstacle being used in the maze, which I am certain that he would have effectively negotiated with the MOM. But, there would need to be a degree to which Dumbledore agreed to remain oblivious of the actual input into the maze because students from his school were participating, and we couldn't have a headmasters knowledge of the task biasing the outcome of the Tournament. Not in the land of MOM officialdom. So for the most part he abdicated his control over that particular space in Hogwarts with the exception of the boundaries the MOM "promised" they wouldnt put in the game. Leaving a spot on Hogwarts Headmaster/Dumbledore protection free for Crouch to wander into and do as he darn well pleased. THis tiny path of the impenetrable Hogwarts School of Withcraft and Wizardry had just been handed over to the complete autonomy of Bagman Ludo and Crouch Sr. You do the Maths. Valky *feeling pleased that that argument is finally put forward* From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat May 10 10:06:39 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:06:39 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius know?? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030510013118.0096adb0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > > Whilst that's a pretty safe assumption, a possibly less safe one is that > the first attack *does* occur two months into the school year, and whilst > Harry hasn't noticed the black dog hanging around the grounds by that stage > (the first time he notices Snuffles is during the Hufflepuff match), Sirius > has been hanging around the Hogwarts grounds all that time. In those two > months, he could easily have ascertained that Ron was a Gryffindor. Dogs > have good hearing, and people say all kinds of things. > Dogs have extremely good sense of smell! And, dogs are also good at tracking (living) things by following scent. Padfoot did not need to know anything about Ron or where he was - he was interested in the RAT. He's a dog, hunting certain rat, whose smell he probably remembers from his time at school (and supposedly that came back when Dementors reminded him of Peter's betrayal, if he forgot what that particular rat smelled)... Doggyness may have kept most of his sanity. It also means loyalty to the pack, protecting and caring for the young (Harry), hunting and attacking those who act against the pack - betrayal of pack(which Peter did) is absolutely inexcusable and unthinkable to the dog. Remus had a bit more mind than Sirius (who lost most of it to Dementors?), but it WAS near full moon when they encountered Wormtail. Harry's intervening brought out the human control, I suppose - a well trained dog will obey it's human... -- Finwitch From c4bchief at yahoo.com Sat May 10 11:10:31 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:10:31 -0000 Subject: Squibs vs Muggles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57513 I did a brief search but havn't been able to find this as a previous topic. Are Squibs the same as Muggles? Since we understand that squibs are those that are from wizarding familys who simply are void of enough magical power to be a wizard. This pretty much makes them a muggle. The only difference is that they are aware of the two worlds. Muggles are simply unaware that the WW exists and are void of magic just like the squibs. Now.. assuming the above is true, we know that most all wizarding buildings and events have "Muggle Repelling charms." (Hogwarts, World Cup, Leaky Cauldron, etc) These charms clearly keep muggles away, but do they keep squibs away in the same fashion? This is where the argument comes up. FILCH for example is a squib we know. He lives and works at Hogwarts, so we know there is a way for those that are non-magic folks to visit magical places with the charms. My question is, is the simple knowledge that the WW exists what enables Filch and other squibs to visit magical places? Is there a spell that is placed upon them? Are squibs still more magical then a normal muggle? I'm under the thought that its the knowledge that the WW exists, the "belief & faith" in it that enables squibs and even muggles the ability to get past the charms. A muggle example is Mr. and Mrs. Granger (Hermiones parents.) They're clearly able to get into Diagon Alley, where they assisted? Or again, is it just that they have knowledge that allows them past. I would love to hear some thoughts on this. Joe From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 13:40:11 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:40:11 -0000 Subject: Squibs vs Muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > Are Squibs the same as Muggles? > This is where the argument comes up. FILCH for example is a squib > we know. Hi Joe, Sorry I am not able to give you the answers on that one but I have a point you may want to note in your curiosity. There is an apparently, confirmed, rumour that someone will finally be able to use magic correctly in a future book, "just in time". This most likely applies to Seamus F, but could apply to Filch. I don't know. Its just an interesting thing that relates to squibness. Can they eventually learn magic? At what point in a wizards life is it confirmed in official or technical terms that he/she is a sqib. Valky From editor at texas.net Sat May 10 13:48:24 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:48:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OK, The Portkey References: Message-ID: <000e01c316fa$d4f0ece0$c804a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57515 Valky, I happen to agree that it *had* to be during the Tournament that Voldemort stole Harry away, but I don't think I agree with your reasoning. > Lets ask ourselves the first question. > Why did Voldemort see the Triwizard tournament as such an opportunity > to get to Harry? Lets put ourselves in voldies baby booties for a > moment. When I do this, I see stealing Harry as, not an end in itself, but a preliminary step in a Plan. Not only is it a perfect time for Harry to go missing for an hour or two unnoticed--I believe that the next step in the plan was for Voldemort and his DEs to come Portkeying back, blasting as they land, right into the heart of the formerly inaccessible stronghold that is Hogwarts. The reason, I think, for doing it at the Tournament is that right in front of them will be waiting the massed strength of the Hogwarts teachers, principals of the Ministry of Magic, and the children of the entire UK wizarding world and of several foreign families. All unprepared; all ready to be taken completely by surprise. It would be master stroke; killing or disabling his strongest enemies and taking control of the wizarding world's children. This, combined with the unexpected, unforeseen (or resolutely unconsidered) reappearance of Voldemort at all, would totally take the heart out of his opposition. He'd win before he'd even begun. I always have thought that this was the reason the Cup's Portkey spell worked by touch, and why it took Harry back out to the front of the maze. That was where Voldemort and his followers would appear, perfectly positioned to wreak havoc. > I would suspect that Dumbledore granted them an extensive allow spell > for the maze. Of course he would have his certain specific objections > to particular brands of obstacle being used in the maze, which I am > certain that he would have effectively negotiated with the MOM. But, > there would need to be a degree to which Dumbledore agreed to remain > oblivious of the actual input into the maze because students from his > school were participating, and we couldn't have a headmasters > knowledge of the task biasing the outcome of the Tournament. I don't agree with this. I don't see that any aspect of the maze need negate any of the Hogwarts defenses, and I don't think Dumbledore would have allowed it (even if he *could*--I suspect the defenses of Hogwarts are not something you can "turn off" like an alarm system). I have presumed that Portkeys would have worked at any time. Given that their only other occurrence (that we have seen) is controlled quite strictly by the Ministry, I had presumed that they were (a) complicated to make and (b) controlled, as are most non-broom forms of wizard travel. In other words, they aren't so common as to be guarded against, and when they are needed, they must be useful. Floo Powder works into Hogwarts too, and Dobby's elf magic allows him to pop up, so clearly there are existing loopholes. I thought Portkeys were one of those. (in an alternate line of theories--my belief that Snape returns to him to take up his spy role again--I think the failure of this plan by Harry's escape is the only reason that Snape survived a return to Voldemort. Because Voldemort, like most totally confident villains, did not bother with a Plan B (why? Plan A is perfect), and was left flat-footed in *front* of his DEs. I think Snape, as a highly placed Hogwarts administrator, was a handy "we still have a route into Hogwarts and an inside way to attack Dumbledore/Harry Potter" who showed up just in time to shore up Voldemort's face and authority with the DEs. As for what will come....please see post 47077, "Amanda Binns Explains It All," which was my broad theory on what Snape's task was (to return to Voldemort), and what he was likely to have to do to prove himself to Voldemort again (involving Dumbledore's death), and how all that would fit into the plot and characterization. It *is* a TBAY post, but it's MY TBAY post, which means it reads pretty much like a standard post (I'm not very go od at TBAY). This was from November, and there's so many new people on here with Snapeopinions, I'd love to hear y'all's input on that.) ~Amandageist From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 14:12:16 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:12:16 -0000 Subject: OK, The Portkey In-Reply-To: <000e01c316fa$d4f0ece0$c804a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > In voldies baby booties for a moment. Amanda sees: > Stealing Harry as, not an end in itself, but a preliminary step > in a Plan. Not only is it a perfect time for Harry to go > missing for an hour or two unnoticed--I believe that the next step > in the plan was for Voldemort and his DEs to come Portkeying back, > blasting as they land, right into the heart of the formerly > inaccessible stronghold that is > Hogwarts. > > The reason, I think, for doing it at the Tournament is that > right in front of them will be waiting the massed strength of > the Hogwarts teachers, principals of the Ministry of Magic, > and the children of the entire UK wizarding world and of > several foreign families. All unprepared; all ready > to be taken completely by surprise. Valky: Cooooool, excellent argument. I thoroughly agree and wish I'd thought of it. :D I do think as Headmaster that Dumbledore has some authority to change the level of security at Hogwarts, though. Valky From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 14:16:08 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:16:08 -0000 Subject: OK, The Portkey In-Reply-To: <000e01c316fa$d4f0ece0$c804a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57517 Oh yeah and Amanda, I also agree that LV had no contingency. Not necessarily because of vain faith in his own genius. Though he is most certainly guilty of that isn't he. :p Valky *now leaving the send button alone to go and look at Amanda's Snape theory* From meboriqua at aol.com Sat May 10 14:18:37 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:18:37 -0000 Subject: General Stereotypes (was: Fred and George and the battle of the sexes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > >Since I don't want to jump to a conclusion, I'm going to respond in the style of the old Choose Your Own Adventure Books.> I love those books! My sister and I still have a good ten of them in our mom's house. > So, you ask for the Slyths to do something different because they are predictable, but then you say, I'm wrong, AND a bit childish besides, for holding onto the belief that the Slyths we've met -- so far -- all seem to be without redeeming qualities?> Who loves to argue? Darrin! Whoa - I was not in any calling you childish and I'm not even sure where you got that from. I said that JKR's writing at times was more child-oriented, and that her creating characters like the Slytherins was an example of that. I never said, btw, that *I* didn't also generally see them all as assholes, because I do. They're even often described in negative terms physically: Crabbe, Goyle and Millicent seem to resemble monsters from _Where the Wild Things Are_. To top it off, even if a Slytherin like Snape somehow turns away from the evil path they all seem to take, he still behaves reprehensibly fairly regularly. If JKR is trying to communicate a message about good and bad and the choices we make, she's not doing the best job with the Slytherins. She makes it too easy there because she seems to want all of us to hate them, no questions asked, and I can't do that. So there. Nyah. --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************* From nj13guy at yahoo.com Sat May 10 13:42:32 2003 From: nj13guy at yahoo.com (Potter Hermione forever) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:42:32 -0000 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan Delaney wrote: > > I was wondering ..., what is Harry going to do when he graduates? > > > > ...edited... > > > > And what sort of career path is Harry likely to follow? Politition? > > Auror? Teacher? Quidditch star? now me: I think Harry will become an Auror if he manages to survive beyond the 17th year of his life! I think JKR might just decide to kill him off as she may want to scotch all rumors of their being a Book Eight. All Masterpieces end in Tragedies.... Potterama might go the same way.. The last line of Book 7. 'Finally, 'The boy who Lived' in his death got rid of his scar....' nj13guy From indyattic at earthlink.net Sat May 10 14:04:46 2003 From: indyattic at earthlink.net (indyattic) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:04:46 -0000 Subject: Squibs vs Muggles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57520 Valky rode over on his mint vintage Nimbus and said: "There is an apparently, confirmed, rumour that someone will finally be able to use magic correctly in a future book, "just in time". "This most likely applies to Seamus F, but could apply to Filch. I don't know. Its just an interesting thing that relates to squibness. "Can they eventually learn magic? At what point in a wizards life is it confirmed in official or technical terms that he/she is a sqib." So, I (Angie) have to pipe in with: Why do you think Seamus, and not Neville? (Thinking of Neville's "I'm practically a squib" remark.) Hmmm - can a squib learn magic? My guess is no. I likened Filch's correspondence course to one of those cheesy matchbook "learn to draw" classes. I never received any hint that there was indeed any value in it. So, what did I miss? Angie, who just last night learned how to pronounce Seamus. From btk6y at virginia.edu Sat May 10 14:40:23 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:40:23 -0000 Subject: OK, The Portkey In-Reply-To: <000e01c316fa$d4f0ece0$c804a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57521 Geist: > I don't agree with this. I don't see that any aspect of the maze need negate > any of the Hogwarts defenses, and I don't think Dumbledore would have > allowed it (even if he *could*--I suspect the defenses of Hogwarts are not > something you can "turn off" like an alarm system). > > I have presumed that Portkeys would have worked at any time. Given that > their only other occurrence (that we have seen) is controlled quite strictly > by the Ministry, I had presumed that they were (a) complicated to make and > (b) controlled, as are most non-broom forms of wizard travel. In other > words, they aren't so common as to be guarded against, and when they are > needed, they must be useful. Floo Powder works into Hogwarts too, and > Dobby's elf magic allows him to pop up, so clearly there are existing > loopholes. I thought Portkeys were one of those. Me: I have to agree with the first poster of this thread- the final task for the Tournament required that Hogwart's defenses be "turned off" in the maze allowing for the cup to be a Portkey. The reason that I don't think that Portkeys can work anytime is that this would be a serious breach of security that cannot just be explained away- if anybody can Portkey into Hogwarts, then how in the world can it be a safe place? About the Portkey being controlled and difficult to make- well, Moody/Crouch says in GoF that HE turned the cup into a Portkey- so obviously he had the ability to do so, why didn't he do it before? Because outside of the Triwizard tournament, it would have been impossible. We know that Floo Powder works IN Hogwarts, but we don't know that it allows you to get INTO Hogwarts. I suspect you can use it to get around the castle but not to get in. Again, otherwise it would be a serious and unexplainable breach of security. Agreed, Dobby's elf magic does allow him to disappear and such on Hogwarts grounds, but we know that house-elves have a "powerful magic" of their own and he can provide directed magic without a wand, simply his finger; house-elves do not appear to be subject to all these wizarding rules and may be able to exempt Hogwarts security. Why wouldn't a Death Eater like Lucius send his house-elf to sabatoge Hogwarts then? I suspect that house-elves have an innate moral code that would not allow them to do that- it allows them to keep secrets for bad wizards, but I doubt they would be able to kill others and other badness (speculation on my part of course). Bobby From artsylynda at aol.com Sat May 10 14:58:33 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:58:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] squibs vs. muggles Message-ID: <7a.3f6ad516.2bee6d99@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57522 In a message dated 5/10/2003 9:41:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > There is an apparently, confirmed, rumour that someone will finally > be able to use magic correctly in a future book, "just in time". > > This most likely applies to Seamus F, but could apply to Filch. I > don't know. Its just an interesting thing that relates to squibness. > Where'd you hear the rumor? Just curious. IMO, I think Squibs are able to get onto Hogwarts because they are from magical families and some magic is in them -- if there wasn't any magic in them, why would Kwikspell say it could help them learn magic? Okay, maybe Kwikspell is a scam, but I think it does make a point, sort of. . . . And Mrs. Norris doesn't appear to be a "normal" cat in some ways -- would such a cat hang around with a Muggle? But she stays with a Squib, so I think Squibs have some small measure of magic in them. JMO. Lynda Sappington Equine Art by Lynda Sappington Elegant equine art in bronze, cold-cast porcelain, handcast paper and resin. Also jewelry with an equine theme in 14K gold and sterling silver. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie at knownet.net Sat May 10 14:58:48 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:58:48 -0000 Subject: Squibs vs Muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57523 I think that it would be most interesting if Petunia ended up being a squib. If this did happen, and magic was "forced" out of Petunia, I believe that it would have to be something to do with Dudley being in severe danger. Petunia, in an attempt to save her "Dudlikins," actually performs magic. Now I'm not saying that I completely believe that Petunia is really from a magical family, but I do see it as a definate possibility. I would be curious if Petunia's maiden name is Evans or not... :) grindieloe From cantor at vgernet.net Sat May 10 15:00:46 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:00:46 -0000 Subject: Diggory's character and a question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57524 In PoA, when Harry awakes to find himself in the infirmary after the Dementors appear at the Quidditch match and he passes out while on his broom, and he realizes that Gryffindor has lost the game, "Diggory got the Snitch," said George. "just after you fell. He didn't realize what had happened. When he looked back and saw you on the ground, he tried to call it off. Wanted a rematch..." (UK hardcover, p. 135) JKR does it to us again. She sets up a character or a situation without our knowing! Yes, Diggory is handsome and popular with the girls, but he behaves in a way we used to call "fair and square". (Do kids still say that?) That is why he hesitates at the end of GoF to grab the Cup; he thinks that Harry should take it. Oh well, no good deed goes unpunished. Now the question. At the end of GoF, after Harry grabs Diggory's body and summons the Cup *with his wand* [emphasis mine], he grabs the Cup by the handle. Now he has one hand on the Cup and the other on Diggory's body. When does he have time to put away his wand? We are told he wants to reach for it right before Crouch, Jr. is about to curse him and Dumbledore and Co. rescue him: "Moody's normal eye was bulging, the magical eye fixed upon Harry. The door was barred, and Harry knew he would never reach his own wand in time..."(UK hardcover, p. 589) Conundrums, conundrums! cantoramy, delurking after a long time and who agrees with whoever wrote there should be more editors of the books so all the Flints could be caught before printing (and all the grammar corrected!) From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sat May 10 15:29:38 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:29:38 -0000 Subject: Question about Harry's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57525 cantoramy wrote: > At the end of GoF, after Harry grabs Diggory's > body and summons the Cup *with his wand* [emphasis mine], he grabs > the Cup by the handle. Now he has one hand on the Cup and the >other > on Diggory's body. When does he have time to put away his wand? We > are told he wants to reach for it right before Crouch, Jr. is about > to curse him and Dumbledore and Co. rescue him: > > "Moody's normal eye was bulging, the magical eye fixed upon Harry. > The door was barred, and Harry knew he would never reach his own > wand in time..."(UK hardcover, p. 589) > > Conundrums, conundrums! Me(Linda): There are actually two possibilities that occured to me here. 1. At some time during the walk to *Moody's* office, Harry absentmindedly slips his wand in his pocket. Canon is that Dumbledore pries the cup out of his hand but says nothing about the wand. Harry could easily still have been holding it as Crouch Jr. started to lead him away from the Qudditch field. 2. Harry had just been through a living nightmare. It's possible that he did drop the wand back at the entrance to the maze but when he perceived danger his mind automatically went to reaching for his wand to defend himself(not realizing that it wasn't there in his currant state of mind). Hope one of these makes sense to you. -Linda From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 15:36:14 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:36:14 -0000 Subject: squibs vs. muggles In-Reply-To: <7a.3f6ad516.2bee6d99@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/10/2003 9:41:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Valky writes: > > > There is an apparently, confirmed, rumour that someone will > finally be able to use magic correctly in a future book, "just in > time". > This most likely applies to Seamus F, but could apply to Filch. I > don't know. Its just an interesting thing that relates to squibness. Linda asked: > Where'd you hear the rumor? Just curious. Valky: Comes to the rescue with a link (spoilers on it! Beware the temptation!) http://www.mugglenet.com/facts.shtml I didn't think of Neville. Yeah, could be him. I thought Seamus because of his frequent explosions. Anyway we'll soon find out. Valky From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 10 15:37:08 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:37:08 -0000 Subject: General Stereotypes (was: Fred and George and the battle of the sexes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57527 Jenny: > > Who loves to argue? Darrin! Whoa - I was not in any calling you > childish and I'm not even sure where you got that from. I said that JKR's writing at times was more child-oriented, and that her creating characters like the Slytherins was an example of that. I never said, btw, that *I* didn't also generally see them all as assholes, because> I do. They're even often described in negative terms physically:> Crabbe, Goyle and Millicent seem to resemble monsters from _Where the> Wild Things Are_. To top it off, even if a Slytherin like Snape somehow turns away from the evil path they all seem to take, he still behaves reprehensibly fairly regularly. > I got that idea because you seemed to be saying that to believe the Slyths were all going to turn out bad -- which, at least with this current crop, I do believe that, given the lack of evidence to the contrary -- was childish. But, I wasn't sure, especially since it was coming from you, so I hedged. AND YOU READ AHEAD! You aren't supposed to do that in Choose Your Own Adventure! > If JKR is trying to communicate a message about good and bad and the choices we make, she's not doing the best job with the Slytherins. She makes it too easy there because she seems to want all of us to hate them, no questions asked, and I can't do that. > > So there. Nyah. Why not hate them? All the ones we've met so far are reprehensible. Their very founder was a genocidal lunatic. The only good one we've met is such a miserable git that he seems to be trying to torture students to make up for his one good deed. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. But seriously, I have to believe that she is setting us up for one of the Slyth students to come to the light. Dumbledore's speech about making choices and easy vs. right paths had to have sunk into someone's thick skull. And no, I don't think it'll be Draco, nor do I think it'll be Crabbe or Goyle. They are basically house-elves without the intelligence and good fashion sense. Of the current crop, perhaps it'll be Pansy. That would be a hoot if Draco's apparent girlfriend is a Muggle-Born. But it could be a new Slyth we get in the next three books, either someone who is younger or someone who simply hasn't been pointed out or developed. (Like Malcolm Braddock, or that big bloke, Warrington or someone else I'm not thinking of.) My guess is, watch carefully at any new Slytherin names we get. There could be your good Slyth. Darrin -- Really hope it happens soon. I'm tired of this argument. :) From heidit at netbox.com Sat May 10 15:58:42 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: squibs vs. muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030510155842.43922.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57528 > I didn't think of Neville. Yeah, could be him. I > thought Seamus > because of his frequent explosions. Anyway we'll > soon find out. Uh oh! Movie contamination! In the books, Seamus doesn't have the same problems with explosions that he has in the movies. It's Neville, iirc, who mangles his feather in Flitwick's class, not Seamus. Also, here at HPfGU, people appreciate original citations to interviews, not pointers to websites, no matter how well done, that don't have links to original sources. Emerson does a rgeat job with Mugglenet, but a citation to the actual 1999 Barnes & Noble chat in which JKR said, " In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about..." and provided a link to http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.net/bnchat2.shtml where the chat transcript is posted, it would've been much more appreciated. Heidi ===== heidi tandy They say its a sign of mental health to hold apparently contradictory ideas in your mind. The world of late has been a particularly exotic stew of horror and beauty. There are killers, there are saints. The trick is to find the right spot on the spectrum between abject despair and total obliviousness. And then carry on... Joel Achenbach From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 16:06:13 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:06:13 -0000 Subject: Question about Harry's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > > cantoramy wrote: > > > At the end of GoF, after Harry grabs Diggory's > > body and summons the Cup *with his wand* [emphasis mine], he grabs > > the Cup by the handle. Now he has one hand on the Cup and the > >other > > on Diggory's body. When does he have time to put away his wand? > We > > are told he wants to reach for it right before Crouch, Jr. is > about > > to curse him and Dumbledore and Co. rescue him: > > > > "Moody's normal eye was bulging, the magical eye fixed upon > Harry. > > The door was barred, and Harry knew he would never reach his own > > wand in time..."(UK hardcover, p. 589) > > > > Conundrums, conundrums! > > Me(Linda): > There are actually two possibilities that occured to me here. > > 1. At some time during the walk to *Moody's* office, Harry > absentmindedly slips his wand in his pocket. Canon is that > Dumbledore pries the cup out of his hand but says nothing about the > wand. Harry could easily still have been holding it as Crouch Jr. > started to lead him away from the Qudditch field. > > 2. Harry had just been through a living nightmare. It's > possible that he did drop the wand back at the entrance to the maze > but when he perceived danger his mind automatically went to reaching > for his wand to defend himself(not realizing that it wasn't there in > his currant state of mind). > Linda and Cantamory, My husband noticed this one. I didn't know how to answer it. Well he also asked how Harry caught the cup by the handle with his wandhand while using his wand. aside:I would like to see Harry do it in the movie *chuckles* I answered that ok, I think, after all Harry is a Seeker and I have performed similar feats myself at times. Noooo not the Accio spell. I have tried though, haven't you?*chuckles again* I like Linda's second explaination for two reasons. 1 Canon GOF Chapter35 "Harry let go of the cup, but he clutched Cedric to him even more tightly." *Valky wipes the tears from her eyes after reading of Harry's overt display of compassion for Cedric* *hmmhmm clears throat* Well as you can see Harry was oblivious to the location of his wand upon returning to Hogwarts. He let go of the cup in some detached manner and hence probably his wand too, again detachedly. 2 Canon again GOF Chapter35 "He used his free hand...." when seizing Dumbledore's cloak and Moody!Crouch pushed a cup into his *empty* hands. Empty, I presume, because there was no mention of him feeling that he was holding his wand anymore. Valky Wondering how to pronounce ACCIO From editor at texas.net Sat May 10 16:04:15 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:04:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OK, The Portkey References: Message-ID: <001201c3170d$cf048720$dd04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57530 Bobby: > We know that Floo Powder works IN Hogwarts, > but we don't know that it allows you to get INTO Hogwarts. I > suspect you can use it to get around the castle but not to get in. Except that Sirius was not in Hogwarts when he Floo'd his head in to talk to Harry in GoF. He was in a house somewhere, off the grounds. So clearly you *could* Floo into Hogwarts from outside, which has always been (I think) one of the Mysteries and Inconsistencies. ~Amandageist From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 16:13:01 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:13:01 -0000 Subject: squibs vs. muggles In-Reply-To: <20030510155842.43922.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, heidi wrote: Hidei wrote: > Also, here at HPfGU, people appreciate original > citations to interviews, not pointers to websites, no > matter how well done, that don't have links to > original sources. > JKR said, " In my books, magic > almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; > however, there is a character who does manage in > desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in > life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing > about..." > > Valky: Why, thankyou Heidi I did not know where to find the "original source". As you so kindly mentioned I got my information from a page that doesn't post them. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 10 16:17:55 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:17:55 -0000 Subject: OK, The Portkey In-Reply-To: <001201c3170d$cf048720$dd04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > Bobby wrote: > > > We know that Floo Powder works IN Hogwarts, > > but we don't know that it allows you to get INTO Hogwarts. I > > suspect you can use it to get around the castle but not to get in. > >Amanda wrote: > Except that Sirius was not in Hogwarts when he Floo'd his head in to talk to Harry in GoF. He was in a house somewhere, off the grounds. So clearly you *could* Floo into Hogwarts from outside, which has always been (I think) one of the Mysteries and Inconsistencies. > No argument from me Amanda definately in, not out. I wonder how he "Floo'ed just his head though. Perhaps he wrote to Dumbledore asking for special permission and an ahem *put's battle gear on again* "allow" for that particular event. Valky From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat May 10 16:24:52 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about Harry's Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030510162452.71331.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57533 --- Valky wrote: > Well he > also asked how Harry caught the cup by the > handle with his wandhand > while using his wand. > > I answered that ok, I think, after all Harry is > a Seeker and I have > performed similar feats myself at times. Lynn: Actually, we do see Harry have his wand in his hand when he catches the Snitch in PoA during the Ravenclaw match. I would think that would be harder given the shape of the snitch while the handle of the Cup would be more in keeping with the shape of the wand. It was Harry's action in PoA that made me think he did the same thing with the portkey. Dumbledore could have handed Harry his wand when he picked Harry up. That would make sense as I don't see Dumbledore letting a wand just hang around on the ground. Since I also think putting the wand away is a natural thing to do, it never bothered me that the wand wasn't mentioned. Lynn (who has come to think of wizard wands like the Immortal's swords in the Highlander series and movies. They are always on hand somewhere though they never seem to even be there until someone grabs for them.) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 10 17:47:29 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:47:29 -0000 Subject: Squibs vs Muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57534 Joe: > Are Squibs the same as Muggles? > > Since we understand that squibs are those that are from wizarding > familys who simply are void of enough magical power to be a wizard. > This pretty much makes them a muggle. The only difference is that > they are aware of the two worlds. > > Muggles are simply unaware that the WW exists and are void of magic > just like the squibs. The Muggle Prime Minister is aware of the Wizard World, as are the parents and other relatives of any Muggle-born. We know through the Grangers that Muggles can enter Diagon Alley. We know Gringotts can change Muggle money to Wizard money, indicating that at least enough Muggles to justify a changing station shop in the Muggle world. Presumably, wizards wishing to use Muggle currency can do the reverse. (The Goblins would have to do something with that Muggle currency -- wonder if the exchange rate fluctuates. Can't you just see some wizard who has to work undercover in the Muggle world bitching about how the Galleon is weak against the pound?) It's interesting that the Grangers only make one appearance at Diagon Alley. This may be a cultural difference -- the homebound U.S. schools vs. the boarding schools in Britain -- but they seem to have a frightfully blase attitude toward the whole thing. > This is where the argument comes up. FILCH for example is a squib we > know. He lives and works at Hogwarts, so we know there is a way for > those that are non-magic folks to visit magical places with the > charms. My question is, is the simple knowledge that the WW exists > what enables Filch and other squibs to visit magical places? Is > there a spell that is placed upon them? Are squibs still more > magical then a normal muggle? Here is where Dumbledore comes in. We only know of two Squibs, Filch and the unnamed Weasley cousin, who is an accountant? (as I recall) I disagree with the theory that Petunia is a Squib. I think Lily and Petunia's parents' reactions to Lily's witchness strongly indicate Muggles. (I don't dispute, however, the possibility that Petunia has repressed magic ability, but that makes her a late-blooming witch, not a Squib.) The Weasley cousin gets a Muggle job and apparently doesn't associate with his magic kin. I mean, this is the Weasleys., some of the nicest people in the Wizard World, and there is not a place for this cousin? That indicates, a bit, that Squibs really aren't welcome, and probably are strongly encouraged to embrace their forced Mugglehood. But that leaves Filch. Perhaps Filch has a job in the magic world through the open-mindedness of Dumbledore, employer of werewolves and giants, payer of house elves, granter of second-chances to Death Eaters, and generally all-around great guy. If Dumbledore knew -- and he probably does -- about Filch's attempts with the Kwikspell stuff, he'd likely say -- and may have said -- "Argus, you really shouldn't fall for foolishness such as that. I have confidence that your skills, magic or no, will fit in nicely here at Hogwarts." Darrin -- Here's another one though. Could the Grangers, now that they are in the know, see the Knight Bus? From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat May 10 18:02:17 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:02:17 -0000 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: <3EBC65B9.9060808@Dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan Delaney wrote: > > And what sort of career path is Harry likely to follow? Politition? > Auror? Teacher? Quidditch star? and Pip!Squeak replies: Quidditch star. I know we're all trained to think of 'sports star' as a rather self- centred role, unsuited to someone like Harry, but consider the following canon: 'in a rush of fierce joy he realised he'd found something he could do without being taught - this was easy, this was *wonderful* [PS/SS Ch. 9, p.111 UK paperback] 'he had left not only the ground behind, but also his fear ... he was back where he belonged ... [GoF Ch. 20. p310, UK paperback] In the air is where Harry feels he belongs. Quidditch is the only thing he feels he's good at. Harry's life has been hugely affected by Voldemort. He is orphaned, Voldemort may have transferred some of his powers to him. Quite possibly almost every part of his personality and powers are in some way touched by Voldemort and the murder of Harry's parents. [Psychologically quite credible, btw. ] There is *one* area of his life where he instinctively feels Voldemort has not touched him. His flying skill. His father played Quidditch, his mother (judging by JKR's drawing) had the small, light build a good seeker needs. Even if Voldemort had never happened, and he was the much loved son of living parents, little Harry Potter would probably *still* be Gryffindor's star Seeker, with professional players commenting on his rare ability. Quidditch is the world where Harry's free. Quidditch is the way Harry relaxes. '[Hermione]: "Harry doesn't want to play Quidditch right now ... he's worried, and he's tired ..." "Yeah, I want to play Quidditch," said Harry suddenly ... [GoF Ch. 10 p.134, slightly edited]. I don't want Harry feeling that he has to grow up to more of the same. He's spent his childhood from 11 onwards fighting Voldemort. To become an Auror, or an Unspeakable is to say that there will never be any end for Harry. 'Congratulations, you've defeated Voldemort. Well, now there's this Banshee down the road ...' I hope someone will tell him, 'you've defeated Voldemort. That's enough for anyone in one lifetime. Go play Quidditch for England, the way you dreamt of.' I want Harry to do more than just survive his childhood. I want him to find a world where he is finally happy. So far, in the books, that world has been Quidditch. Harry as a professional Quidditch player would be someone doing something he's good at, something he loves, and *not* something he's being shoved into because he's the Boy Who Lived. Is there any hope for this? Possibly. One of the things I noticed about JKR's choice of timing for the Quidditch World Cup is that the next World Cup takes place the summer *after* Harry's Seventh Year at Hogwarts. Another pointer is that she already has one school-age player at National Team level (Krum). It would be a terrific climax to the series, if Harry survives. If Voldemort is defeated at terrible cost, but Harry feels he must continue playing, because England has no hope without their star seeker (theme's come up before...). If he plays on without feeling any joy because of grief for those lost. Then, during the final itself, the 'fierce joy' returns and he realises that he has this one place where he truly belongs ... ... and catches the Snitch. The Seeker has found what he sought. The crowd is cheering. The World is won. Come on, folks. It'd be a great ending. Pip!Squeak From hp at plum.cream.org Sat May 10 18:19:40 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:19:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030510175257.00963ac0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57536 Another long post from yours truly. :-) I'll start with the usual summary: I'm a 3,4,1,2 person. On to why. Just to be original, I'm going to explain my views in the negative - the things to like about the books have already been well covered by others in this thread, so I want to explain why PoA is the book with which I have fewest *problems*, whilst CoS is the one with which I have most. Each of the books has plot or structural shortcomings of one sort or another, some large, some small. I'm going to detail them out of order, leaving my favourite and least favourite until the end: Questions arising from PS/SS include how Hagrid disappears at Kings Cross, how the Dursleys get off the Rock in the Sea, how Quirrelmort apparently runs free under Dumbledore's nose for the entire year, and how Dumbledore lets himself get duped into leaving Hogwarts on the climactic night. And of course there's the "dissin' the Slyths" scene which has been the subject of much debate recently. Nevertheless, as a kids' book, it introduces the new world with wit and originality. My main problem with GoF is that I simply don't buy the Triwizard Tournament as particularly ambitious in its scope. Why do the three challenges need to be spread over the school year, and what do the Durmstrang and Beauxbatons pupils do in the meantime? And what's happening at the two schools while their respective headmasters (and presumably star pupils) are away for a whole year? And of course there's that vexatious problem of how fake Moody remains undetected under Dumbledore's nose for the whole year (see also PS/SS). PoA is the least formulaic of the four to date. There is no central mystery for Harry to solve, or a series of would-be bad guys set up on the way to proving who was to blame. There is one would-be bad-guy (who I realised from the first page had to be innocent, if only because Vernon took an immediate and prejudiced dislike to him) and no obvious real bad guy (Scabbers' revelation took me entirely by surprise). There is really one major plot/structure shortcoming, and that's why Lupin doesn't reveal to Dumbledore that Sirius Black is an Animagus much earlier. Lupin isn't stupid, and should've realised that prancing around as a black dog was the perfect disguise for a convict on the run. I'll leave the slagging-off tone of this post for a moment to mention a couple of positives: the most poignant scene of all four books to date for me is that in the last paragraphs of the penultimate chapter of PoA, when Harry urges Sirius and Buckbeak to hurry up and leave, and Sirius's reply "You are truly your father's son". Harry, who's desperately wanted to leave the Dursleys all his life and has been offered a home by Sirius, foregoes the prospect, for Sirius's sake. He's desperate to know more about his parents. He gives up on that, for Sirius's sake. Unlike, say, the end of GoF, it's done without sentimentality or held-back tears, just disappearing into a speck in the night sky. My biggest fear about the forthcoming movie is that they screw up this scene by making it too teary. The other thing I absolutely *adore* about this book is the time travelling. It's possibly the most misunderstood sequence in the books (judging by the number of comments I've seen which get it completely and utterly wrong) but it's just beautiful in its simplicity. On to CoS, with which I have huge, major, plot issues. Alice mentioned my post over on the Movie list in which I listed some of them, and here they are again in a slightly abbreviated form (I am, incidentally, disappointed that my post met with no reaction whatsoever on that list, and hope for more here). :-) During the Duelling Club, it becomes apparent that Harry is a Parselmouth. Snape throws Harry a "shrewd and calculating" look. Ron and Hermione get Harry away and explain that Parseltongue is Bad. How did they get out of the duelling room, filled with horrified students and at least two horrified teachers? Why didn't Snape take any action (at the very least, for Harry's own safety from a mob of terrified students)? I would have expected that Harry should have been dragged by the scruff of the neck to Dumbledore for a little tete-a-tete. Harry *is* taken off to see Dumbledore the next day (once Justin has been petrified). Harry has the chance for a fairly lengthy conversation with the Sorting Hat, and admires Fawkes for some time before Dumbledore comes in. It's assumed that Dumbledore knows about Justin (how?), although talking about it is absolutely not on the agenda, and the sum of Dumbledore's words is to tell Harry even more about Fawkes. Why does Dumbledore not reassure Harry about the Parseltongue? Why doesn't Dumbledore share his reassurance that Harry didn't do it with the rest of the school? Of course, had Dumbeldore done so, Harry might have felt able to tell him about the voices... And another one. It's possible that Binns is trying to save the children worrying by refusing to admit that the Chamber (and the "Monster") have made a previous appearance in recent Hogwarts history. It's possible that he was unaware of what happened fifty years previously. Nevertheless, the second is unlikely and there is absolutely no benefit from lying about the former. *Why* is he so categorical in denying the chamber's/monster's existence? (Totally incidentally, I suspect that there's more to Binns's death than "falling asleep in his chair" and it is somehow related.) Furthermore, how come Harry is the first person to make the connection between Moaning Myrtle and the Chamber? All the pupils know about Myrtle's presence in the toilets, so it's pretty much inconceivable that Dumbledore doesn't. Myrtle seems to imply that Harry is the first person ever to have demonstrated an interest in the circumstances of her death. Dumbledore was at Hogwarts at the time: why has he never investigated this avenue of inquiry? (The possibility remains that Dumbledore actually has done that and knows a heck of a lot more than he's letting on, but barring some spectacular about-turns in the upcoming plot, I find it highly unlikely.) There is the separate issue throughout the book of the apparent lack of any investigation *whatsoever* by the teachers into the attacks or the Chamber. It would have made some sense if among the various comments about the school might having to close down, etc., *something* had been said *somewhere* about a renewed investigation into the Chamber's whereabouts, but there is NOTHING, ZERO. And yet another one. Dumbledore is reinstated towards the end because the Governors heard about Ginny's capture (how? - that's a *completely* separate issue, which I consider to be minor) and thought he was the only person who could do anything about it. In the Chamber, we discover that Ginny has mere moments left to live. As far as we're aware, Dumbledore doesn't turn up until everything is over and done with. So just *what* did he do? One final, minor quibble: Dumbledore cancels the end-of-year exams. Does that include the OWL and NEWT students as well? :-) And I won't even go into McGonagall's apparent complete capitulation faced with the unknown and her complete inability to run the school in Dumbledore's absence. I don't want to start a feminist debate, but this smells very bad to me. As hinted above, there is a running theme in some of those problems: Dumbledore's relationship with Hogwarts and how much he knows. There's a very, very vague possibility that these things aren't plot holes, but foreshadowing of things to come, and many theories have been put forward to allay problems with Dumbledore's characterisation in GoF (MAGIC DISHWASHER foremost among them) - as I've said before, as far as I'm concerned, they don't really need explaining. However, Dumbledore's role in CoS is a major problem with me and I have yet to discover any coherent explanation of it. From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 10 18:18:44 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:18:44 -0000 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57537 > and Pip!Squeak replies: > > Quidditch star. > > I don't want Harry feeling that he has to grow up to more of the > same. He's spent his childhood from 11 onwards fighting Voldemort. > To become an Auror, or an Unspeakable is to say that there will > never be any end for Harry. 'Congratulations, you've defeated > Voldemort. Well, now there's this Banshee down the road ...' > > I hope someone will tell him, 'you've defeated Voldemort. That's > enough for anyone in one lifetime. Go play Quidditch for England, > the way you dreamt of.' Hear! Hear! But, I'm afraid someone -- unless Dumbledore is still alive, perhaps -- WON'T tell him that. I don't believe the Wizard World as a whole will allow him to just be normal. We're talking about a world that believes what Rita Skeeter writes, Pip. There is not a lot of tolerance for going against the mob. There will always be those that think Harry should just stuff himself in a museum somewhere and answer questions about things he doesn't remember, such as how he deflected V-Mort's spell. But I would love to see Harry go play Quidditch, and then I would like to see him as commissioner of the Quidditch League, or doing Bagman's job, or just... living. > Possibly. One of the things I noticed about JKR's choice of timing > for the Quidditch World Cup is that the next World Cup takes place > the summer *after* Harry's Seventh Year at Hogwarts. Another pointer > is that she already has one school-age player at National Team level > (Krum). And we've got Bagman -- who knows his Quidditch, even if he's a slimy git -- saying the Harry is on par with Krum, flying-wise. Yeah, I'd love it. And then Harry joins the Chudley Cannons and helps them win five straight Quidditch championships, with their greatest fans, the just-married Ron and Hermione watching from the stands, Hermione pregnant with a red-headed bucktoothed child? > It would be a terrific climax to the series, if Harry survives. If > Voldemort is defeated at terrible cost, but Harry feels he must > continue playing, because England has no hope without their star > seeker (theme's come up before...). If he plays on without feeling > any joy because of grief for those lost. Then, during the final > itself, the 'fierce joy' returns and he realises that he has this > one place where he truly belongs ... > > ... and catches the Snitch. The Seeker has found what he sought. The > crowd is cheering. The World is won. > > Come on, folks. It'd be a great ending. Yes, it would. "The cheers washed over Harry as he hovered in the air, holding the madly fluttering Snitch in his hand. For the first time in his life, he was sure that no one was staring at his scar." Bring it on! Darrin -- And just why does the Chudley Cannons bear such a marked resemblance to my beloved Chicago Cubs? From trisha.masen at verizon.net Sat May 10 16:57:35 2003 From: trisha.masen at verizon.net (Trisha Masen) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:57:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 2779 References: <1052515619.9997.58124.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001301c31715$85398fc0$2c01000a@Tlaptop> No: HPFGUIDX 57538 > Ersatz Harry wrote: > > Incidentally, the whole concept of James, Lily, and Cedric being > > "echoes" when the re-emerge from Voldemort's wand perplexes me. > > > And when they subsequently disappear (Lily or James says > > they won't be around for long), where do they go? Do they just > > dissipate? Do they go back into Voldemort's want? If the latter, > > can they be summoned again? > Me(Linda): > Interesting point. I actually like the idea of them returming > to the wand. You may have stumbled upon a very important future plot > twist. It would make it possible for Harry to defeat Voldemort with > his parents help. Yes indeed. I like this a lot. Me (Trisha): Well, that then begs the question if Harry would even be able to hold the connection that long next time. (Over and above the chances of Priori Incantatem happening again.) I mean, probably one of the few reasons he was able to hold on last time was the promise of seeing his parent soon - there were only a few things done with that wand since 31 October 1981. But if there is a next time, I don't think Harry can hold out (or onto the connection) long enough for them to reappear. Related, I think they probably just dissipate. They're echoes and aren't "stored" in the wand - they're always there because those are the curses that wand performed. ~Trisha From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sat May 10 17:11:40 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:11:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OK, The Portkey In-Reply-To: References: <001201c3170d$cf048720$dd04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030510115638.00b78460@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57539 >Amanda wrote: >Except that Sirius was not in Hogwarts when he Floo'd his head in >to talk to Harry in GoF. He was in a house somewhere, off the >grounds. So clearly you *could* Floo into Hogwarts from outside, >which has always been (I think) one of the Mysteries and >Inconsistencies. Maybe I just missed it, but I don't recall the talking-head-in-the-fire being specified as a form of travel via Floo powder. I'd gotten the impression that it was a different kind of spell all together that allowed someone to project their head into a fireplace, rather than moving their entire body. I know that for someone to go somewhere by Floo powder there doesn't have to be a fire burning in the fireplace they're trying to reach (otherwise, Mr. Weasly and the kids wouldn't have been able to make it to the Dursley's fireplace at all), but for the talking-head messages to get through it seems that there does have to be a fire, since that's what the head appears in. Oh, another thought - on a totally different thread - I was thinking about the whole underaged magic rules. I don't know for sure if the MoM can tell who performs magic and who doesn't, only that they can tell *where* it's been performed. In CoS, when Dobby shows up and floats the violet pudding in the Dursley's house, the MoM cites Harry for it, meaning they couldn't tell that it *wasn't* Harry who actually performed the magic. It appeared that all they knew was that someone in that house did magic, and since Harry was the only known witch or wizard there - and was known to be underaged - they presumed it was him. In a wizarding house, though, like the Weasley's, there'd be magic going on ALL the time, and if they can't tell for sure who is performing it, there's no way they could cite the kids for doing it. That would explain why the rules seem to be applied differently in those two situations. Just a couple thoughts.... Kriselda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sat May 10 17:39:03 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:39:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle's Origins and Where Voldemort did his Killing In-Reply-To: <3EBACE32.6A8C66F9@colfax.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030510122059.00bc9dc0@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57540 Lissa B recently mentioned: >I don't think this is a contradiction. Dumbledore doesn't say "only" >remaining ancestor of Slytherin, he very carefully uses the word >"last". (In my theory, Tom Marvolo Riddle would be the last of Harry's >family line.) But when someone says "last remaining" - and Dumbledore does use the term *remaining* - that means that no other descendent (which at least the UK books have been corrected to read), well, remains. Since Harry and Ginny are both alive, and since one of them would have to be a descendent of Slytherin for Riddle to be a descendent of Slytherin, Riddle can't be said to be the "last remaining". I understand that you're making a distinction between "only", meaning sole, and "last" meaning "end of a sequence" here, but because of the word "remaining" that distinction, in my opinion, is moot. The qualifier "remaining" means that something is "what is left of a given set". To say that something is the "last remaining" of a thing means explicitly that no other thing of that kind exists any longer, though other things of that kind used to. Essentially, "last remaining" and "only remaining" are interchangeable. The age of the things being "counted" doesn't matter, because while the term "last", by itself, can (and usually does) refer to the end of a series, when it is used in conjunction with "remaining" it makes it clear that none of the other items in that series are still around (otherwise, it would be termed "one of the last remaining"). Had Dumbledore said that Riddle was the "last descendent" of Slytherin, I would agree that your interpretation was possible, but because he uses "remaining", I can't see it working that way. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thorswitch at thunderhaven.net Sat May 10 18:03:54 2003 From: thorswitch at thunderhaven.net (Kriselda Jarnsaxa) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:03:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Said it's Descendant, not Ancestor (WAS: Tom Riddle's Origins) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030510125707.024364d0@mail.kriselda.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57541 Monita recently mentioned: >Curious that in spite of what the British Listees interpret JK's >meaning to be. Rowling herself instructs us not to ignore the >original "mistake" text. She doesn't say not to ignore it, but instead to "hold on" to it, as it will be valuable someday. The "valuable" there refers to money - because once the correction has been made and the corrected versions are released, they will inevitably become more plentiful, making those early - and uncorrected - editions worth a great deal more to collectors, simply because of their rarity, much like how "First Editions" are considered more valuable. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat May 10 18:36:33 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:36:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric's Hollow References: <1052569475.6670.7753.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003501c31723$150a5a00$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 57542 bboy_mn wrote: > Like you, my first thought was Harry and Ron in a bachelor pad (a very > small one considering real estate prices) in London. > > Alternate- > * Harry rebuilds his Gordric's Hollow home. I wonder whether it has already been rebuilt? It could depend on what sort of legal arrangements (if any) the WW has for looking after it. It's quite possible that another relation (perhaps on James's side) has had it rebuilt - especially if there's any shortage of wizard houses (and I believe that the wizard population at least keeps pace with increases in the muggle one, so that there would be a constant need for new homes). Could be that Harry already has a place to go, once he's given notice to whoever's renting it at the moment... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat May 10 18:57:17 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:57:17 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Squibs & Muggles References: <1052591358.4995.77147.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004201c31725$fa2ba920$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 57543 Darrin wrote: > The Muggle Prime Minister is aware of the Wizard World, as are the parents > and other relatives of any Muggle-born. We know through the Grangers that > Muggles can enter Diagon Alley. It's not explicitly stated that the PM is aware of the WW, just that he was "notified" of Sirius's escape. That would be quite feasible without his being aware of the WW at all. I formed a picture of his having a report put on his desk, apparently from the Home Office (but really from a MoM "plant" in the Cabinet Office), giving details of a dangerous criminal who had escaped, and telling him what to do about it. > The Weasley cousin gets a Muggle job and apparently doesn't associate with > his magic kin. I mean, this is the Weasleys., some of the nicest people in the > Wizard World, and there is not a place for this cousin? Maybe there are no accountants in the WW! (Suddenly goes up hugely in my estimation...) > Perhaps Filch has a job in the magic world through the open-mindedness of > Dumbledore, employer of werewolves and giants, payer of house elves, > granter of second-chances to Death Eaters, and generally all-around great > guy. Though Filch is also an example of the difference between squibs and muggles - he obviously has to get his janitorial supplies from somewhere, and there's no suggestion that if he pops down to the shop in Hogsmeade, that he has to wander the glens and bens, unable to find Hogwarts again because of the anti-muggle spells, until someone has mercy on him. > -- Here's another one though. Could the Grangers, now that they are in the > know, see the Knight Bus? I think that everyone can _see_ the Knight Bus, they just don't _notice_ it. Douglas Adams came up with the idea of a "someone else's problem" generator to hide things and I think the Knight Bus has a magical equivalent. (Thinks: "There's a big bus going down the road and the streetlamps are jumping out of the way, it's someone else's problem so I don't notice it") Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From koticzka at wp.pl Sat May 10 13:54:13 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (koticzka) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:54:13 -0000 Subject: Why DD lets Snape be [a nasty git] (WAS Teachers and fairness) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57544 We do not live in a perfect world, neither Hp's one is perfect - bad teachers happen to carry on for years even in schools with complex systems of control (compare ISO 9000 ;) ). Snape can just have good results - students do learn potions, don't they? They have to work very hard and they do. There is so many similarities between muggle and magical world, that we can even presume Hogwarts has also a kind of system of evaluation. It may be quite enough to have an average average to keep the job. Snape may be awfull for Gryffs and seems to be wonderfull for his Slyths. Adding mentioned above avearage of two left houses... In some FF I met a theory he is 'punished' by teaching in Hogwarts and imprisoned there. Yet teachers do not stay at school during holidays, which seems to be aginst the theory. However I would rather wonder about Dumbledore overprotecting him - perhaps it was one of the conditions that our dear Albus would keep an eye on SS? The final point is - when you have a real Master of Potions which Prof. Snape seems to be, and when you have an opporttunity to make him share his brilliant knowledge with students, whyy not to take an advantage on it? I wonder whether I would not sacrifice a couple of Gryffs dunderheads... OK. I AM keen on Snape and Slyths. Yet I was a student for a couple of years and then I was an academic teacher. Sacrifices like this are quite common as are teachers who sacrifice themselves just to have an easy job and be able to carry on their studies after boring classes. Conclusion: Snape is not fair. But he might be good in teaching. Never mind exams or his attitude. After years you appreciate the mind and knowledge. I was lucky to meet some people like this. Pity not like SS.. ;) Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From koticzka at wp.pl Sat May 10 13:52:43 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (koticzka) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:52:43 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius Know? - about Cats, Dogs and Rats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57545 Steve wrote: "I'm of the impression that the Weasley family is well liked and well known, and I also suspect that 'What house were you in?' ranks near the top of this list of questions people ask when they meet each other." Koticzka: Well, especially in Azkaban - one knock - Hufflepuff, two - Ravenclaw... ;) Steve: "Personally, I don't see Crookshanks and Snuffles/Sirius's conversation..." Koticzka: I talk to my rat and we undeerstand each other quite well. Perhaps not as my dog - Meshuge (RIP). Steve, have you ever had an animal on a higher level of evolution that a toad? AND - remember. We are not considering pets but FAMILIARS which (who?) need to find Syrius wherever he might be to deliver him a letter or are able to steal partticular thing from a most appropriate person - like Neville ;) Even considering muggle animals - some of them are pretty inteligent, can save human lives, warn against a fire, recognise moods etc. etc.... So one do not need to talk to show the little traitor. Well, I can imagine a conversation You have mentioned - after "Master and Margerita" by Bulhakov one can admit that everything is possible. By the way - no, my rat's name is not Pettigrew one. More confusing for me is how SB found out about Harry in Azkaban - something does not match. And further (is it GOF?) - he kept being hungry - no hunting, no stealing (OK, I can understand)?... Does not match for me either. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From koticzka at wp.pl Sat May 10 13:46:36 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (koticzka) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:46:36 -0000 Subject: We live stereotypes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57546 Please forgive me, if I repeat something that was already said before, I am very fresh here. moreover I a little bit messy below. But on the other hand - sometimes it is good to get back to the origins from very sophisticated discussion... I was wondering about bad Slyths and cristal Gryffs... Well, we can observe a kind of marginal behaviour of marginal individuals. We do not have average. It seems quite normal (well, in common sense) that some more or less formal groups feel better than others and have their own sense of morality or ethics. As is in all groups in whole of the world - in schools, universities houses, companies, streets, classes even. Is it not what science of sociology is about? And stereotypes who work for itselves is strenghening - tell someone he is stupid - he will get worse results - psychological efect. As noblesse oblige. I am not very keen on very positive characters, because they used to be boring. Yet those Gryffs make some surprises - especially Weasleys the Twins ;) Not quite noble behaviour sometimes... Though at a result quite fair. Trying to cross the Age Line to attend Triwizard Tournament... PoA: Harry Potter using his Invisible Cloak in Hogsmeade against Slyth's trio. Very wise, indeed. And how noble... ;) The only extremely rightous person - Minerva McGonnagal, punishing also Malfoy Jr. for not being in bed in PS (the dragon affaire). But, well, one not always knows the final result... I heard that Japanese judge people by results, not intentions. I do not like it. As far as intentions are considered - it is not so obvious either. We also have means. And aims. And some experiences. And priorities. So serving to your own house and making it win OR being noble (clumsy someone like Malfoy Sr. would say) and lose? So perhaps it is not about good and evil but priorities? like in Andersen's story about little Juish girl who respected her parents according to the religion she believed in (catholicism?) and she stayed Juish in respect for her parents because it was against the religion... Complex. I exagerate. But sometimes choices are so difficult, when you have to choose between your priorities, believes and values you have been grown up with. And IT IS a lighter version of famous "Sophia's Choice" that happen sometimes. Perhaps some (note: SOME) adults with their experience might not have problems chosing between good and evil, because they (we?) have more strategical attitude. Perhaps we understand the meaning of those two extremes better. But children? Do they? When they are said that the family and noblesse are the most important virtues and that they will be expelled and "cursed out" of the family, that they will be not loved any more as traitors of those traditional values? Who would not hesitate to lose everything? For what? A boy who despises you and throws away your hand - like Harry had thrown away Malfoy Jr.? Even if Draco had another idea of good and evil. Slitherin does appear to me as a caste environment. Another extreme version of people's common behaviour - when you are well educated and even better situated, you will look for your friends among people like you. Sorry, but it is true. They understand that lose of your favourite car (or NIMBUS 2001) is the disaster. And again - the owner of two pink cadillac (two FIREBOLTS???) hardly will understand a person, who is trying to plan every single penny till next salary, being scared not to get ill because it means more expenses and days off, when you can lose your job. As the truth is - there are exceptions. As miracles happen... I know you will consier it trivial, but is it not a kind of cliche, also shown in a book? We all live in stereotypes. Yes. We do. Even Grown ups, very wise and experienced persons. We use them all the time, every single minute. At last - if the book is for children (anyway, it would be its very first thought) - you need some white and some black. Ying nad Yang? No, much more complicated and complex! In a wise book not everything is so obvious - and for instant: we heard some rumours (from JKR herself) that Malfoy Jr. will stand by Harry's side for a while. It is what I am very curious about - why only for a while? Why at all??? Three more things for further consideration: 1) Harry had been suggested to become Slyth by Sorting Hat. 2) We do not know how Black the Gryff had told to Snape the Slyth to come to Shrieking Shrack. He might had played worse - a false friend for Snape. We do not know. Not yet. Why indeed Snape follow Sirius? What whas his purpose? Broken rules? Security? Curiosity? 3) Yes. Very noble - to add points for Gryffindor at the very end. Bravo, Headmaster! What an example for youngsters! Was he Gryff? No? he seems to favour them, don't he? For the balance with weaker Snape, of course. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 10 19:15:21 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:15:21 -0000 Subject: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57547 Koticka said: > > Three more things for further consideration: > > 1) Harry had been suggested to become Slyth by Sorting Hat. > And he said, "HELL NO! I WON'T GO!" Harry made his choice and lo and behold, he found himself not in the house founded by a genocidal madman. > 2) We do not know how Black the Gryff had told to Snape the Slyth to come to Shrieking Shrack. He might had played worse - a false friend for Snape. We do not know. Not yet. Why indeed Snape follow Sirius? What whas his purpose? Broken rules? Security? Curiosity? > I think the motivation of defending school rules, considering that Lupin was accompanied by a school official -- Madam Pomphrey took Lupin to the shack, remember -- shouldn't be swallowed if Snape tries to float that as his reason. Or did the young Snape consider himself a better arbiter of the rules than the school nurse? How very ironic. > 3) Yes. Very noble - to add points for Gryffindor at the very end. > Bravo, Headmaster! What an example for youngsters! Was he Gryff? > No? he seems to favour them, don't he? For the balance with weaker > Snape, of course. Yes, the example that bravery, self-sacrifice and cleverness is more valuable than sneaking about, trying to cost the other team points. Quality of points is worth more than quantity. And also, choose the right path, not the easy path. Like I've said, hopefully, one of the Slyths will get it and we'll finally get that good Slyth. Darrin From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 10 19:20:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:20:32 -0000 Subject: Squibs & Muggles In-Reply-To: <004201c31725$fa2ba920$d04d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57548 Ffred: > > It's not explicitly stated that the PM is aware of the WW, just that he was > "notified" of Sirius's escape. That would be quite feasible without his > being aware of the WW at all. I formed a picture of his having a report put > on his desk, apparently from the Home Office (but really from a MoM "plant" > in the Cabinet Office), giving details of a dangerous criminal who had > escaped, and telling him what to do about it. I think it's more explicit than that. Page 33, PoA UK. Quoting the Daily Prophet. "I have the Prime Minister's assurance that he will not breathe a word of Black's true identity to anyone. And let's face it- who'd believe him if he did?" -- Fudge. That indicates a personal conversation between Fudge and the P.M. That further indicates the P.M. knows EXACTLY what Black is, and if there is a conversation between Fudge and the P.M., then I think it's not a bad assumption that channels have been opened in the past. Darrin From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 10 19:22:49 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030510192249.24377.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57549 koticzka wrote: I was wondering about bad Slyths and cristal Gryffs... ME: Your examples are totally right on. Ms. Rowling's world is not a simplistic one of black and white, absolute good verse absolute evil. I do think though that in some of the people knocking Potter's rule breaking or some of the Twin's behavior, they overlook that their heart was essentially in the right place. (when not, it still does not involve NASTY behavior. That certainly is not true with Mr. Malfoy. I believe intentions and motivations are VERY significant. (Guess I'd make a bad Japanese) But it has also been pointed out that Peter Pettigrew was a Griffinder (or so we are led to believe or he couldn't have hung out so much with Sirius and James) so being a Griffinder does NOT automatically mean your noble. Although Peter may be a bad example as he may NOT have been a Griffinder at all as he's obviously also a coward! Also, concerning the Slytherines, since we get the story through Harry's eyes, we see those in the Slytherines who's actions are directed against him. We do not have a complete view of many people that comprise the house. But when Dumbledore toasted Cedric and Harry, Harry noticed that a lot of Slytherines didn't raise their cups. But what is a lot? 50%? More? Less? The point is at LEAST some did. So, while the Slytherines could be catagorized as a group as slimballs, that certainly cannot be automatically assumed of all of them. Even Snape I believe has his good points which will at some time probably be shown us before the story has ended. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srsiriusblack at aol.com Sat May 10 19:23:48 2003 From: srsiriusblack at aol.com (srsiriusblack at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:23:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius know?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57550 Sirius peobably knew that Ron was in Gryffindor because had been observing Harry in dog form for a while before he entered the Dormitory. The trio attends almmost all classes together and they are rarely without at least one of the three. So, Sirius would have known by simply observing where Ron, and more importantly Pettigrew slept. -Snuffles who is begining to shake from withdrawl and need OOTP From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat May 10 19:24:41 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Sirius Know? - about Cats, Dogs and Rats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030510192441.81250.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57551 --- koticzka wrote: > More confusing for me is how SB found out about > Harry in Azkaban - > something does not match. And further (is it > GOF?) - he kept being > hungry - no hunting, no stealing (OK, I can > understand)?... Does not > match for me either. Lynn: I wouldn't think it very hard for Sirius to just assume that Harry was at Hogwarts. After all, he knows how old Harry is, he scrounges papers from people who visit there (Fudge as an example) so he knows what the year is, and it's not a great leap for him to figure that Harry is at Hogwarts. As for Sirius being hungry in GoF, I find that understandable as well. We don't know if there is any game in the area or what type as he appears to be staying out of the Forbidden Forest. Sirius doesn't want to steal too much food so the people in the area don't get suspicious. Any food the people around Hogsmeade might give a lovable stray would just be scraps. That makes sense. So, he has rats to live on. For a big dog, that assumes a lot of rats are needed to satisfy a hunger. Of course if it were me, I'd have to be really hungry to eat a rat. LOL Harry had food to eat all summer even on Dudley's diet plan but he was still hungry as it just was not enough. So, it would stand to reason that perhaps there were just not enough rats around for Sirius to eat that would satisfy his hunger. Besides, if all the rats were suddenly gone, that might raise suspicions as well. Lynn (who still wonders how the school nurse at Smeltings could give so unnutritious a diet plan that calls for only a 1/4 grapefruit for breakfast.) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From editor at texas.net Sat May 10 19:22:09 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:22:09 -0500 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace, was Re: OK, The Portkey References: <001201c3170d$cf048720$dd04a6d8@texas.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20030510115638.00b78460@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: <001301c31729$749dc320$8305a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57552 First off, I haven't been following the list in a while and I have seen Floo discussions go past, so apologies if this has been dissected before. Kriselda completely accurately (bravo!) said > Maybe I just missed it, but I don't recall the talking-head-in-the-fire > being specified as a form of travel via Floo powder. I'd gotten the > impression that it was a different kind of spell all together that allowed > someone to project their head into a fireplace, rather than moving their > entire body. I know that for someone to go somewhere by Floo powder there > doesn't have to be a fire burning in the fireplace they're trying to reach > (otherwise, Mr. Weasly and the kids wouldn't have been able to make it to > the Dursley's fireplace at all), but for the talking-head messages to get > through it seems that there does have to be a fire, since that's what the > head appears in. > L.O.O.N. on deck. You may be right. It's inconclusive. I combed the books for fireplace travel/communication incidents; all page numbers are from the Canadian or UK editions. In GoF, when Arthur and the boys show up to get Harry, what Arthur says is " ' I had your fireplace connected to the Floo Network, you see - just for an afternoon, you know, so we could get Harry.....I'll light a fire to send the boys back.." (p. 44) Also in GoF, when Mr. Diggory "pops in" to tell Arthur about Mad-Eye: " Amos Diggory's head was sitting in the middle of the flames like a large bearded egg." (p. 141) And when Sirius' head shows up at Hogwarts: "..Harry looked back into the flames, and jumped. Sirius' head was sitting in the fire. If Harry hadn't seen Mr. Diggory do exctly this back in the Weasleys' kitchen, it would have scared him out of his wits." (p. 290) --and-- (Sirius speaking) '.. I've broken into a wizarding house to use the fire, but they could be back at any time...' " (p. 291) Neither of the head-in-the-fire instances in GoF specifically mention Floo powder. However, in PoA, when Snape summons Lupin, this definitely sounds like Floo powder: "He [Snape] strode across to his fire, seized a handful of glittering powder from a jar on the fireplace, and threw it into the flames. 'Lupin!' Snape called into the fire. 'I want a word!' " (p. 211-212) The description of the powder Snape used matches the description of Floo powder when we are introduced to it, in CoS: "He [Fred] took a pinch of glittering powder out of the flowerpot, stepped up to the fire and threw the powder into the flames." (p. 41) So Snape seems to have used Floo powder to *call* Lupin; we are not told whether Snape's flames turned green, but when Lupin appears he is "revolving very fast" (p. 212), which matches the sensation Harry feels when he travels by Floo in CoS. Here is my interpretation of this.... --Wizarding houses and businesses, etc., are connected to a "Floo network" that allows travel and/or communication via Floo powder. (canon) --There is a Floo Regulation Panel which oversees the hooking up of fireplaces to the network; not sure what other tasks they have. (canon, GoF p. 44). --When you use Floo powder, you must have a fire going in the *outgoing* fireplace, and the flames turn green. (canon extrapolation) --It is not necessary to have a fire going in the *receiving* fireplace, and those flames do not turn green (although these normal-looking flames do not burn, either). (canon extrapolation) --Floo powder has a communication function as well as a travel one (canon extrapolation). Snape *calls* Lupin, the Floo must have carried his voice. My interpretations? I wonder what would have happened if Lupin's fire had not been lit. For Snape's flames did not turn green (that we know of); he was using Floo to *call,* not to travel. I must conclude that Lupin's own flames turned green, and that, along with Snape's call, alerted Lupin to come. He knew upon arrival that it was Snape who had summoned him ("You called, Severus?") so I am also presuming he *heard* him. If Lupin's fire had been out, would there have been no answer? Or does the use of Floo to "call" in this way, *light* the fire? As for whether Floo is the mechanism for the head-in-the-fireplace communication--I think it is. I don't think it is such a stretch to go from sending your voice by Floo, which I think canon supports, to someone, to sticking your head in the fire to talk to them directly. For the Snape/Lupin interaction, I think that Snape could have stuck just his head in the fireplace to ask Lupin directly, except that given his personality, he'd rather (a) be clean and standing in his office talking to a ashy and just-straightening-up Lupin, rather than be very low in a fireplace looking *up* at him--very much a psychological disadvantage; and (b) not treat Harry to the spectacle of his backside sticking out of his fireplace while he talked to Lupin. The thing that makes me hesitate is the physical disorientation that Harry experienced when he used Floo, it's hard to see how all that whirling and spinning and stuff could be going on while half of you is in one place and the other half somewhere else. However, given the following: --*fireplaces* are used for both things --Floo powder is an avenue for communication as well as travel --the Floo Regulation Panel is simply "Floo" and not "Floo and X" regulation I am tending to think that Floo is more adaptable than we (Harry) have yet seen or realized. There may be alternate uses or applications, one of which is the head-in-the-fireplace quickie communication function. Thoughts? ~Amandageist From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat May 10 19:38:32 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:38:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: squibs vs. muggles References: <20030510155842.43922.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501c3172b$be33bc40$9509570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 57553 From: heidi Uh oh! Movie contamination! In the books, Seamus doesn't have the same problems with explosions that he has in the movies. It's Neville, iirc, who mangles his feather in Flitwick's class, not Seamus. ----Me---- Actually, it was Seamus (from SS, Chapter 10): "It was very difficult. Harry and Seamus swished and flicked, bu thte feather they were supposed to be sending skyward just lay on the desktop. Seamus go so impatient that he prodded it with his wand and set fire to it - Harry had to put it out with his hat." ~Cathy~ From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat May 10 19:59:52 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs vs Muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030510195952.53833.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57554 --- darrin wrote: > It's interesting that the Grangers only make > one appearance at Diagon Alley. > This may be a cultural difference -- the > homebound U.S. schools vs. the > boarding schools in Britain -- but they seem to > have a frightfully blase attitude > toward the whole thing. Lynn: The Granger's make one appearance at Diagon Alley that we know of. After all, I doubt that they didn't accompany Hermione to Diagon Alley the first year but we don't get introduced to Hermione until later. I didn't read them as blase but intimidated about the whole thing in CoS. In fact, we find them standing nervously by a bank counter. "... but he was distracted almost at once by the sight of Hermione's parents, who were standing nervously at the counter that ran all along the great marble hall, waiting for Hermione to introduce them." (CoS, p. 47, UK) The next time: "'Clearly,' said Mr. Malfoy, his pale eyes straying to Mr. and Mrs. Granger, who were watching apprehensively." (CoS, p. 51, UK) Even though we don't see them in PoA, I get the feeling they may in fact have been there. We don't meet up with Hermione until after she's done her shopping and it's there we find out her parents gave her extra money for her birthday and that she's also staying at the Leaky Cauldron. Again, I'd doubt they would let her stay there if they hadn't known she'd be with the Weasleys. They may well have brought her, exchanged money, said goodbye and set her loose with Ron to buy her things. Perhaps the reason Mr. Weasley was in the Leaky Cauldron was because he had been having another drink with them. Of course, in GoF, we know they allowed Hermione to go to the Weasleys and it was Mrs. Weasley who did all the shopping for everyone, including getting money, so of course we wouldn't see them. Another thought is that after what happened in CoS, the Grangers may feel it's better if they don't go into Diagon Alley. They may feel they were the cause of the trouble in Flourish & Blotts. After all, it appears they've raised Hermione to be a very independent young woman and as long as they know there is adult supervision they are comfortable with, it's not a stretch that they brought her there and left. While the Grangers feel very supportive of Hermione, they may not be comfortable with the whole thing. After all, if they were that blase, they would have just let her shrink her teeth to begin with instead of insisting she continue with her braces. LOL Lynn (who would probably have considered pulling her kid from the school the first time she went to Diagon Alley and saw the goblins and seriously considered it after seeing Lucious Malfoy) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sat May 10 20:15:21 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030510201521.83832.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57555 --- Pip!Squeak wrote: > > One of the things I noticed about > JKR's choice of timing > for the Quidditch World Cup is that the next > World Cup takes place > the summer *after* Harry's Seventh Year at > Hogwarts. Then, > during the final > itself, the 'fierce joy' returns and he > realises that he has this > one place where he truly belongs ... > > ... and catches the Snitch. The Seeker has > found what he sought. The > crowd is cheering. The World is won. Lynn: (who left the last part in because it just brought tears to my eyes) Oh, you gave me goosebumps reading all this. I love that ending. I also had noticed that the next World Cup is due right after Harry leaves Hogwarts and that just seemed to be a bit coincidental to me. While I agree with Darrin that the rest of the WW may want Harry to be more than a Quidditch player, continuing to expect him to be larger than life and carry heavy burdens, it's also not a stretch that they would go for Harry playing Quidditch for England when you consider their attitude toward Bagman in the Pensieve. It seems the WW puts as much admiration into their Quidditch stars as the Muggle world puts into sports stars. I also want more for Harry than a life having to live up to unrealistic expectations or having to take on other people's burdens. Maybe after winning the World Cup, Harry becomes a coach for the Chudley Canons and they finally win something? Ron would be playing for them and together they bring the team to greatness. That would be cool. I also want to see Harry end up back in Godric's Hollow. Even if the house is destroyed, he can rebuild it, the property would still be his and it would also be nice for him to be able to settle down to a simple life, having Quidditch as his occupation. Lynn (I can dream for the happily ever after ending, can't I?) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sat May 10 21:05:44 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:05:44 -0000 Subject: Floo Powder and Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57556 > > Bobby wrote: > > > > > We know that Floo Powder works IN Hogwarts, > > > but we don't know that it allows you to get INTO Hogwarts. I > > > suspect you can use it to get around the castle but not to get in. > > > >Amanda wrote: > > Except that Sirius was not in Hogwarts when he Floo'd his head in > to talk to Harry in GoF. He was in a house somewhere, off the > grounds. So clearly you *could* Floo into Hogwarts from outside, > which has always been (I think) one of the Mysteries and > Inconsistencies. > > Valky replied: > > No argument from me Amanda definately in, not out. I wonder how > he "Floo'ed just his head though. > Perhaps he wrote to Dumbledore asking for special permission and an > ahem *put's battle gear on again* "allow" for that particular event. > Me(Linda): In chapter 14 of PoA, when Snape *paged* Lupin via a fire, he used a "glittering powder". Floo powder actually transports a person from one location to another and seems to need to be instigated by the wizard doing the traveling. Snape must have used something different to call Lupin as he didn't go anywhere. However, Lupin could have used Floo powder to get to Snape's location as I doubt Snape could have made him come against his will. I agree that travel by Floo powder is probably possible from fire to fire within the castle walls.I would think that there is a different powder for making a *telephone call* by fire as well. I wonder how many different powders there are that are used with fires. Hmmmmmmm. -Linda From risako at nexusanime.com Sat May 10 21:24:12 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:24:12 -0300 Subject: Pronunciation of "accio" WAS Re: Question about Harry's Wand References: Message-ID: <009f01c3173a$8199fb00$6b846395@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 57557 > Valky > > Wondering how to pronounce ACCIO There's a pronunciation guide at: http://scholastic.com/harrypotter/books/pronunciation/play.htm They say it should be "AH-see-oh." That and some of the other pronunciations seem a tweensy bit... odd, to me. Since JKR obviously derives spell words from Latin, I tend to pronounce them the Latin way. But, to each his/her own :) Melissa, off moderation and with her very own wand :D From saitaina at wizzards.net Sat May 10 21:32:35 2003 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:32:35 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: No Posting on main list durning OoP release Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57558 Hello HPfGU Members! It's an exciting time here on the List as we wait with bated breath for the arrival of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix! While we're all patiently (!) waiting for the Big Day, your Friendly Administration Team has been running around making preparations for the blessed event. After many long talks with and input from many of you, we have decided to close the Main List to posting for 45 hours from the moment of first release, midnight Friday night (20th June) British Summer Time. This means that, while you'll be able to read all the fantastic posts in the archives, you will not be able to post your own messages until the closing time has passed. The list will re-open to posting at 9pm on Sunday 22nd June, British Summer Time. That's 4pm on the East Coast of North America, and 1 pm on the Pacific Coast. This will allow everyone a chance to read and reflect before posting about OoP and sharing messages with the usual high standard of thoughts and opinions. But fear not, friends! There are ways to share all your observations, be they about Draco's robes or the Dursleys' breakfast menu! OTC, otherwise known as Off-Topic Chatter, will not be affected by the Main List closure, so you are free to post your comments there. Just remember that not all readers of OTC will be in the happy position of having a copy of OoP, so be sure to use the proper spoiler prefix (OoP:) and avoid giving away details in your headers. If you're not already a member of OTC, go to www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter and join the friendly gang that hangs out there. Remember, OTC is one of our sister lists, so the same rules of behaviour apply there as apply on the Main List. Once the Main List is reopened to posting (hurray!) we suggest you repost any particularly brilliant canon observations there. Otherwise we could all go cross-eyed as we try to read canon discussions on both lists Thank you all for reading this, and Happy Harry Day to you on June 21st! The HPfGU Administration Team From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sat May 10 22:17:22 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 22:17:22 -0000 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace & Hogwarts defenses In-Reply-To: <001301c31729$749dc320$8305a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57559 Amanda has deduced, correctly in my opinion, that Floo powder is used for purposes of communication and travel. However, this discussion, if I'm not mistaken, started with a question about Hogwarts defenses - if Hogwarts is so impregnable, how is it possible that its Floo fireplaces are connected to the outside world? The obvious answer is that Hogwarts has a firewall - communication with the outside world is possible, but not transportation to or from it. However, in the very first Floo communication scene in GoF Molly is able to place a piece of toast in Amos Diggory's mouth. This suggests that, at some level, Floo communication is Floo travel - a certain part of Amos Diggory's body was present at the Burrow, able to take an object with it. I suppose it is possible that Hogwarts grates will allow this limited contact with the outside world, as it is hard to imagine that a disembodied head could do a great deal of damage, but surely the applications of Floo communication for the purpose of spying can't have escaped the notice of whoever it was that designed the castle's defenses? I've had the sneaking suspicion for a while now that the defenses on Hogwarts are more psychological than physical - everyone knows that the castle is impregnable, so no one tries to get in. Dumbledore's presence probably helps, too, but really, the castle is protected by ancient and outdated spells which no one has bothered to upgrade or update in centuries. It must be obvious by now that we will see someone apparate in or out of the castle, the prohibition has been stated too many times, but now I suspect that Hogwarts may be breached in other ways. Abigail From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 10 22:24:19 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 22:24:19 -0000 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Is there any hope for this? > > Possibly. One of the things I noticed about JKR's choice of timing for the Quidditch World Cup is that the next World Cup takes place the summer *after* Harry's Seventh Year at Hogwarts. Another pointer is that she already has one school-age player at National Team level > (Krum). > > It would be a terrific climax to the series, if Harry survives. If > Voldemort is defeated at terrible cost, but Harry feels he must > continue playing, because England has no hope without their star seeker (theme's come up before...). If he plays on without feeling any joy because of grief for those lost. Then, during the final itself, the 'fierce joy' returns and he realises that he has this > one place where he truly belongs ... > > ... and catches the Snitch. The Seeker has found what he sought. The crowd is cheering. The World is won. > > Come on, folks. It'd be a great ending. > Ahhh, but how much more heartwrenching if, after being tapped for the team and all, Harry has to watch as a spectator, because he sacrificed his magical powers to defeat Voldemort ---and it's *Ron* who catches the Snitch. Pippin From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 10 22:42:31 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030510224231.45274.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Is there any hope for this? > > Possibly. One of the things I noticed about JKR's choice of timing for the Quidditch World Cup is that the next World Cup takes place the summer *after* Harry's Seventh Year at Hogwarts. Another pointer is that she already has one school-age player at National Team level > (Krum). > > It would be a terrific climax to the series, if Harry survives. If > Voldemort is defeated at terrible cost, but Harry feels he must > continue playing, because England has no hope without their star seeker (theme's come up before...). If he plays on without feeling any joy because of grief for those lost. Then, during the final itself, the 'fierce joy' returns and he realises that he has this > one place where he truly belongs ... > > ... and catches the Snitch. The Seeker has found what he sought. The crowd is cheering. The World is won. > > Come on, folks. It'd be a great ending. > Ahhh, but how much more heartwrenching if, after being tapped for the team and all, Harry has to watch as a spectator, because he sacrificed his magical powers to defeat Voldemort ---and it's *Ron* who catches the Snitch. Pippin ME: I wonder. Just like his father who also was an excellent Quidditch player but didn't seem to play after his school days, I think it is really quite possible that after the battle and turmoil of fighting Voldemort the game simply won't mean as much to an adult Harry Potter as it does now. All our scenarios have him becoming a professonal player/coach but it is very possible that he has a greater destiny then that. At least in time. For the time being, after book 6 I think rest and raising a family quietly would appeal to him more then anything! While a lot of us seem fond of tragic type endings (dying to kill Voldemore or as Pippin said, losing his powers..which I doubt is possible. Magical powers isn't something you pocess as much as it is part of you it seems)I think neither a tragic ending or a sports championship ending is in the cards. Now, eventually I wouldn't be surprised if he fullfills the same role in the wizarding society that Dumbledore fills now. But that'll take a lot of time and much more wisdom then he has now of course. In the meantime, while I love sports (being a runner myself) I just don't think his destiny is to be a world cup Quidditch player! Not that I'd be TOTALLY shocked if I'm wrong here! Huggs Becky PS And there's NOTHING to suggest that Ron is in the kind of top elite catagory that would take him to those heights. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Sat May 10 22:39:56 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 22:39:56 -0000 Subject: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57563 "koticzka" wrote: > 3) Yes. Very noble - to add points for Gryffindor at the very end. > Bravo, Headmaster! What an example for youngsters! Was he Gryff? > No? he seems to favour them, don't he? For the balance with weaker > Snape, of course. I always felt that Dumbledore gave the points to the trio (and Neville) at the Final Feast in PS/SS to "give back" the ones that McGonagall took away when they were caught in the Norbert fiasco. I don't think he did it solely for Gryffindor to win the house cup or to favor them. Many people on the board believe that DD is an all-knowing, all- seeing headmaster (various theories on exactly how abound, but I digress). If so, doesn't it stand to reason that he KNEW what was going on with Hagrid and the dragon egg? Doesn't is also stand to reason that he KNEW that the trio was trying to help get Hagrid out of trouble and that they didn't once implicate him in an illegal activity? Draco did, but McGonagall didn't believe him. In order to save their skins, HH could have ratted Hagrid out. But they didn't and had to face the consequences. Yet in spite of their loyalty and bravery, what do HH (and Neville as an innocent bystander) get for their troubles? 150 points taken away, detention in the Forbidden Forest and being outcasts everywhere they turn. I think DD was not only rewarding them for saving the WW from the re- rise of an immortal VM with the stone, I think he was also giving them back their dignity that was lost because they did a good thing to help out a friend. Just my 2 knuts. bowlwoman From indyattic at earthlink.net Sat May 10 22:58:24 2003 From: indyattic at earthlink.net (indyattic) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 22:58:24 -0000 Subject: Squibs And Muggles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57564 Darrin conjured up: "We only know of two Squibs, Filch and the unnamed Weasley cousin, who is an accountant? (as I recall) " me: Yikes - I missed that. Which book is that in? We only know of two Squibs, but we do know that there are enough of them to warrant the development of the correspondence course. Darrin again: "I disagree with the theory that Petunia is a Squib. I think Lily and Petunia's parents' reactions to Lily's witchness strongly indicate Muggles. (I don't dispute, however, the possibility that Petunia has repressed magic ability, but that makes her a late-blooming witch, not a Squib.)" me: I think it Petunia had any magic in her, she would have received a letter. I think she's just jealous of her (now dead) sister's exciting life. I always had the impression that the offspring of two magical parents would almost certainly inherit the magic "gene" and would therefore get the letter. In that scenario, nobody would be certain of one's squibness until one had failed at Hogwarts. That would explain how Filch ended up there. still me: I'm only on my second read, but are we sure that Neville isn't a Squib? I guess the fact that he gets some responses from his wand would indicate that he isn't entirely magically-impaired. Darrin again: "The Weasley cousin gets a Muggle job and apparently doesn't associate with his magic kin. I mean, this is the Weasleys., some of the nicest people in the Wizard World, and there is not a place for this cousin? That indicates, a bit, that Squibs really aren't welcome, and probably are strongly encouraged to embrace their forced Mugglehood. But that leaves Filch. Perhaps Filch has a job in the magic world through the open-mindedness of Dumbledore, employer of werewolves and giants, payer of house elves, granter of second- chances to Death Eaters, and generally all-around great guy." Me again: Maybe Cousin Weasely is in league with Bill and/or Gringotts, laundering Muggle money.I never ever got the impression that the magical world booted out the Squibs. I got the impression that the Squibs suffered from serious self-esteem issues. Filch in particular. I think that DD found a place for Filch where Filch desperately most wanted to be, and that is at Horwarts. Darrin again: "If Dumbledore knew -- and he probably does -- about Filch's attempts with the Kwikspell stuff, he'd likely say -- and may have said -- "Argus, you really shouldn't fall for foolishness such as that. I have confidence that your skills, magic or no, will fit in nicely here at Hogwarts." Me: Or perhaps Dumbledore knows that the Kwikspell course isn't *all* nonsense after all. After all, developing magic "late in life" isn't apparently unheard of. Angie, grammar, check! header, check! From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 11 00:59:13 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030510175257.00963ac0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030511005913.23294.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57565 --- GulPlum wrote: > > On to CoS, with which I have huge, major, plot > issues. > > > > > > investigation > Lynn: I am soooo glad to finally hear that someone else has problems with CoS. I thought I was the only one. I'm very glad it was actually the last of the HP books I read as I think if I had been able to read them in order I never would have read PoA or GoF, which tells you what I thought of it. I still have not been able to read it through completely a second time. I can only get through it a section at a time. How did Dobby know where Harry lived? Is Harry in the book? Did the Weasley's use a route planner to figure out the flight path to Harry's? How could a car revving close to the upstairs windows and bars being pulled out of the window not wake the Dursleys but Hedwig's screech would? How in the world could Harry forget Hedwig? While dashing around the room getting his things he didn't happen to notice the cage? I'm only at Chapter 3 and things are implausible to me. Enough of all that, to the things mentioned... The duelling scene between Malfoy and Harry seemed so contrived to me, just to bring out that Harry spoke Parseltongue. I mean really, why would Snape tell Malfoy to send a snake? Harry was supposed to block a spell, not a snake. Yea, I know people have said Snape did it to show Harry was a coward but that's pretty lame to me as well. In addition, why were people mad at Harry? Draco was the one who summoned the snake, Lockhart was the one who set the snake off and the snake was about to strike before Harry said something, it went docile after. We of course know the reason Dumbledore went on about Fawkes is so Harry and the reader would know the powers of the phoenix. Okay. Presumably the time it took Dumbledore to get to the office is because he was dealing with the Justin situation or perhaps he was going to the pictures to see if they had noticed anything. (I wonder if the people in the pictures could be killed or petrified by the basilisk. Also, if Colin's film could be fried, why weren't any pictures fried? Did the basilisk purposely not look at the walls?) Besides, Harry needed that time for his interaction with the Sorting Hat so he could continue to have his doubts. Why Dumbledore didn't bring up Harry speaking Parseltongue is beyond me as well. It seemed the perfect time to do it and I agree that if he had, Harry may have felt more comfortable telling him about hearing the voice. Of course, what also bugs me is knowing that this huge snake is slithering through the walls talking to itself. Yep, Binn's explanation bothered me as well. Then again, for someone who can't even be bothered to learn his students names properly, it may not be surprising that he doesn't want to be bothered by anything he doesn't feel is important. We don't know how long he had been at the school. It is conceivable that he wasn't there when the Chamber had been opened but then how would he know it had been searched for over and over? Nope, just doesn't make sense to me. He was too quick to dismiss the whole thing. I think it's pretty obvious that Dumbledore does know more than he's letting on just through this exchange. "'It means,' said Dumbledore, 'that the Chamber of Secrets is indeed open again.' Madam Pomfrey clapped a hand to her mouth. Professor McGonagall stared at Dumbledore. 'But Albus...surely...who?' 'The question is not who,' said Dumbledore, his eyes on Colin. 'The question is, how...' And from what Harry could see of Professor McGonagall's shadowy face, she didn't understand this any better than he did. (CoS, pp. 135-6; UK) We know from Riddle that Dumbledore had watched him very closely after Myrtle's death. It stands to reason that at some point in all those years that Dumbledore would have asked Myrtle how she died and yet, it appears he never bothered. Unless he knew how she had died, knew about the basilisk and for some reason was unable to stop it. Why would he think Harry could do better? Because Harry could speak Parseltongue and would supposedly be able to get into the Chamber? Isn't that taking a huge risk with Harry's life? Why didn't he just say, hey Harry, since you can speak Parseltongue I need you to do me a favor, let's go to the toilet, find the chamber entrance and you can open it for me. Then I'll go down and take out the basilisk. Why wait for another potential death? It always bothered me that the polyjuice potion hadn't been discovered. First, even though none of the girl's apparently used the toilet, didn't it ever get cleaned? Didn't anyone notice a strange smell coming from the toilet? If no one used the toilet how come Myrtle gets flushed out to sea sometimes? Why wasn't there a search of the castle after each attack? Well, of course there couldn't be a search, the toilet couldn't get cleaned, no one used the toilet during this time and no one noticed a strange smell because then the polyjuice potion would have been discovered and we couldn't have that, could we? Was the opening in Myrtle's toilet the only way the basilisk could get out? Were there other pipe openings big enough for it? If there weren't, why was the basilisk traveling through the pipes? Going on it's own holiday? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. Don't even get me started on the Deathday party. Lynn (wondering if this was enough comment for GulPlum) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 11 01:04:47 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Floo/head-in-the-fireplace, was Re: OK, The Portkey In-Reply-To: <001301c31729$749dc320$8305a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: <20030511010447.76593.qmail@web21208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57566 --- Amanda Geist wrote: > --Wizarding houses and businesses, etc., are > connected to a "Floo network" > that allows travel and/or communication via > Floo powder. (canon) Lynn: A question here. Does the Floo network necessarily only refer to things doing with floo powder? Doesn't Floo also refer to chimneys/fireplaces and therefore would really have to do with any type of communication and/or travel between those rather than only by floo powder? If it does, wouldn't that mean there were other means of communicating without the use of floo powder but through the floo network? Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 11 01:16:02 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 01:16:02 -0000 Subject: Squibs And Muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57567 Angie: > Yikes - I missed that. Which book is that in? We only know of two > Squibs, but we do know that there are enough of them to warrant the > development of the correspondence course. PS pg 75. "I think Mum's got a second cousin who's an accountant, but we never talk about him," Ron. > > Darrin again: > "The Weasley cousin gets a Muggle job and apparently doesn't > associate with his magic kin. I mean, this is the Weasleys., some of > the nicest people in the Wizard World, and there is not a place for > this cousin? That indicates, a bit, that Squibs really aren't > welcome, and probably are strongly encouraged to embrace their forced > Mugglehood. But that leaves Filch. Perhaps Filch has a job in the > magic world through the open-mindedness of Dumbledore, employer of > werewolves and giants, payer of house elves, granter of second- > chances to Death Eaters, and generally all-around great > guy." > > > Me again: > Maybe Cousin Weasely is in league with Bill and/or Gringotts, > laundering Muggle money.I never ever got the impression that the > magical world booted out the Squibs. Well, the quote indicates that the Weasleys never talk about the cousin. I didn't mean to say the magic world booted them out, but there just doesn't seem to be a place for Squibs in the magical world as a whole. Really, how odd would it be to be the only non-magic cousin at a Weasley gathering? > Darrin again: > "If Dumbledore knew -- and he probably does -- about Filch's attempts > with the Kwikspell stuff, he'd likely say -- and may have said -- > "Argus, you really shouldn't fall for foolishness such as that. I > have confidence that your skills, magic or no, will fit in nicely > here at Hogwarts." > > Me: > Or perhaps Dumbledore knows that the Kwikspell course isn't *all* > nonsense after all. After all, developing magic "late in life" isn't apparently unheard of. Actuall, I don't know if there is a reference to late-developing magic in the canon. Neville didn't show the aptitude until later in his childhood, but I don't recall anyone Petunia or Filch's age suddenly becoming magic. The Petunia is magic theory is just that, a theory. I am kind of indifferent to the Dursleys, so it wouldn't matter to me. It would just seem to me to fit with Dumbledore's usual M.O., finding a place for someone everyone else has given up on. Darrin From devin.smither at yale.edu Sun May 11 01:19:29 2003 From: devin.smither at yale.edu (uilnslcoap) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 01:19:29 -0000 Subject: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: <20030511005913.23294.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57568 Ahh, I must be a rather rare breed. I'm a 4, 3, 2, 1 kinda guy. I tire of PS/SS very quickly upon another read because it just establishes so much while the others exist without pointing out, "Oh, magic, magic!" everytime something happens. I really love CoS. I know it has problems, but the whole Riddle thing, the bold step of cutting Hermione out at a critical moment effectively from the rest of the novel. It was such a corker. I couldn't believe how much I was cheering for Harry to show that snake and his master who was in charge. It was wonderful. PoA is riveting in its climax. That Time-Turner bit is probably my favorite "sequence" in the Harry Potter series (except possibly the graveyard in GoF). Now here's the odd thing about this book: Hermione disappears for a long time in this novel (she's busy with all those lessons) somewhat like the second and yet the author demonstrates that only together can this Trio function. It's really good, I think. GoF I love for the sense I get that its what everything revolves around. There was before GoF, there is GoF, and there is after GoF. That's kind of my picture of the Harry Potter evolution, and I like that quality in GoF. Also the thematic material gets more emphasized here. I'm looking forward to seeing what OotP does for everything. Hope my trend of liking the books in order continues! Devin From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 11 01:25:38 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:25:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! References: <20030511005913.23294.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004901c3175c$3b460320$99ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57569 Ladi_Lyndi > > The duelling scene between Malfoy and Harry > seemed so contrived to me, just to bring out that > Harry spoke Parseltongue. I mean really, why > would Snape tell Malfoy to send a snake? Harry > was supposed to block a spell, not a snake. Yea, > I know people have said Snape did it to show > Harry was a coward but that's pretty lame to me > as well. In addition, why were people mad at > Harry? Draco was the one who summoned the snake, > Lockhart was the one who set the snake off and > the snake was about to strike before Harry said > something, it went docile after. > I've always found this scene fascinating. As you pointed out, Snape told Draco to cast that particular spell. Unlike everyone else in the room, Snape did not appear to be shocked, horrified, or even really surprised when Harry spoke Parseltongue. Instead, he looks at Harry in a shrewd, calculating way. I've always interpreted this scene as Snape suspecting for some reason that Harry might have this ability and then having his suspicions confirmed. I actually think Snape knows quite a bit when it comes to Harry and his ultimate destiny (could even have had something to do with his defection), and now that this portion has been confirmed, he is thinking about what should happen next, how it can be beneficial to his plans, who knows what else? I truly think there is much more to Snape's behavior in this particular scene than has been revealed to date, and I can't wait to see exactly how this will come into play. > > Yep, Binn's explanation bothered me as well. > Then again, for someone who can't even be > bothered to learn his students names properly, it > may not be surprising that he doesn't want to be > bothered by anything he doesn't feel is > important. We don't know how long he had been at > the school. It is conceivable that he wasn't > there when the Chamber had been opened but then > how would he know it had been searched for over > and over? Nope, just doesn't make sense to me. > He was too quick to dismiss the whole thing. > Something when it comes to the description of Binns's death has made me wonder if he might have been one of Voldemort's earliest victims, and I don't mean by the basilisk. He got up the next morning and went to teach, leaving his body behind. It's always made it sound like he just died of old age in his sleep in the staffroom. But why would he be a ghost if his death was that peaceful? I speculate that he may have perhaps been AK'ed while sleeping, being Riddle's guinea pig in trying out the Killing Curse. I agree that CoS is the book that holds my attention the least, but I can see where so many little things that still don't seem that important to us in that book may become extremely important later. It's for these tiny things that I keep rereading CoS. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From editor at texas.net Sun May 11 01:40:30 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:40:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Floo/head-in-the-fireplace & Hogwarts defenses References: Message-ID: <002b01c3175e$4f49b0e0$7105a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57570 Abigail: > I've had the sneaking suspicion for a while now that the defenses on Hogwarts are more > psychological than physical - everyone knows that the castle is impregnable, so no one > tries to get in. Dumbledore's presence probably helps, too, but really, the castle is > protected by ancient and outdated spells which no one has bothered to upgrade or > update in centuries. Oooh! Oooh! Indirect support for "love as a spell component"! For those of you who read "Amanda Binns Explains It All"....doesn't this fit in? Dumbledore's willing sacrifice to be a component of a protective spell for Hogwarts, as Lily's willing sacrifice may have been a component of a protective spell for Harry. Oooh, this fits. Down to Dumbledore's death being what Snape accomplishes to win Voldemort's trust again; Snape possibly not really doing it but Harry believing he did; etc. (Snape feeling responsible for Dumbledore's death, by the way, would be *TERRIBLY* Bangst-y, now, wouldn't it?) *Do* go back and read that post...(47077). ~Amandageist From dorigen at hotmail.com Sun May 11 02:06:04 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 02:06:04 +0000 Subject: Professor Binns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57571 >Something when it comes to the description of Binns's death has made me >wonder if he might have been one of Voldemort's earliest victims, and I >don't mean by the basilisk. He got up the next morning and went to teach, >leaving his body behind. It's always made it sound like he just died of >old >age in his sleep in the staffroom. But why would he be a ghost if his >death >was that peaceful? I speculate that he may have perhaps been AK'ed while >sleeping, being Riddle's guinea pig in trying out the Killing Curse. Well, personally I suspect that Professor Binns is JKR's parody of the kind of person who is so boring that he dies of old age in his club and no one notices for several days. In this case, since it's the wizarding world, the person himself doesn't notice either. However, your idea is not only good, but can be taken further: If Binns died of a curse from Tom Riddle, and is therefore a ghost, then a) why hasn't he mentioned it to at least Dumbledore, and b) what is the unfinished business that keeps him here (clearly it isn't teaching ...)? The answer to both questions may be that Tom Riddle also cast a powerful Memory Charm on Professor Binns. This would explain a) why he hasn't told the world what happened to him, b) why he can remember every word of his subject but has trouble remembering names and c) why he is still here instead of wherever ghosts go; he is aware (consciously or otherwise) that there's something he needs to deal with but doesn't know what it is. (I suspect that if you become a ghost, you don't show up in someone's wand for a Priori Incantem. I also suspect that Moaning Myrtle *did* tell everyone what she remembered, and they didn't think she was reliable -- she probably was a great exaggerator when she was alive -- and/or assumed the big yellow eyes belonged to Aragog and the boy's voice was Hagrid.) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From btk6y at virginia.edu Sun May 11 02:56:56 2003 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 02:56:56 -0000 Subject: OK, The Portkey In-Reply-To: <001201c3170d$cf048720$dd04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57572 > Except that Sirius was not in Hogwarts when he Floo'd his head in to talk to > Harry in GoF. He was in a house somewhere, off the grounds. So clearly you > *could* Floo into Hogwarts from outside, which has always been (I think) one > of the Mysteries and Inconsistencies. I agree with Kriselda that having a talking head in the fireplace is NOT a form of Floo powder, rather a means of wizard communication (kind of like talking on a telephone or videoconferencing) and not a means of transport. Bobby From oppen at mycns.net Sun May 11 03:02:23 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 22:02:23 -0500 Subject: Kwikspell courses Message-ID: <006901c31769$bf8d0180$a2560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 57573 I think myself that the Kwikspell course that Filch bought is not intended for Squibs, but for witches and wizards who are weak in one area or another of magic. Like this: I get through Hogwarts, but I still royally stink at Transfiguration...I got through on the basis of a strong performance in Charms, DADA, and other things, which I'm fairly good at, but I can't Transfigure anything much to save my life. Now, later in life, I find myself handicapped by not being a good Transfigurer...maybe I can't get a promotion at my job, or maybe my love life also stinks because everybody knows witches want wizards who can Transfigure easily. Or, I've just never _had to_ Transfigure anything, even though I passed the course when I was at Hogwarts. Now, I've got a promotion at work, and my new job involves Transfiguration on a level that I can't really handle. What do I do? What do I do? I decide to Take Steps. As it happens, private tutors are beyond my financial reach, but I _can_ afford a Kwikspell course. I get one, and follow the directions, and before you know it, I've at least got enough skill at this to be able to get that promotion, and get myself a new girlfriend, or handle my new job. We do know that there are some teachers at Hogwarts who are not really good at their jobs *cough Quirrell cough* or who don't do well with some pupils *cough cough Snape cough* and it would be possible for a pupil stuck with such a teacher to always be weak at that particular subject. (This is where Muggle students are at an advantage; if one particular pupil-teacher mix doesn't work, there's always next year) I could even see Professor Snape working part-time for the Kwikspell company, helping them put together syllabi and suchlike for at-home Potions refresher courses. As I understand it, a Squib _can not_ do magic...kind of like being born blind. While a blind person can do a lot of things, there are a lot of activities he will never be able to do, simply because he can't see. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sun May 11 02:59:39 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 02:59:39 -0000 Subject: Professor Binns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: Valky: I Reeeaaally like this spin on the topic! First things first I absolutely agree! Binns is one of those obscure references JK likes to hide her secrets in. We should definately! focus a little on his mystery. Especially, with the impending books promising a "twist in the tale", regarding the circumstances surrounding a death of one of the Hogwarts ghosts. I presume, armed with my treasured experiences of JK's writing style, that this ghost is one that we already know. I had not yet considered Professor Binns as the candidate, so, thankyou to these posters you have opened up a whole new world of conjecture for me to explore. :D Ok now....... Does Binns sudden death have anything to do with Tom Riddle? If the theories, so far, put forward prove true and he was Tom's guinea pig, which is quite logical. How then could his death provide us a meaty future plot? Personally I can't think of one, but anyone who can I would love you to get posting! For me, however, the projection is a little wider. To get us thinking I would like to point out that Professor Binns is the Hogwarts *History* teacher. I have already campaigned that Tom/Voldemort, to me, appeared to have something of an obsession with his own ancient history. (Looking for the identity of his mother?) Its not particularly canonised though, sorry, Its more of a hunch. He's made references to his knowledge of ancient things, though. If Professor Binns had been of any specific use to Tom in his strongest causes, it would be in his capacity as an Historian. I believe he may have experimented on Binns, but not only to that end. Well thats all I have come up with, so far. I am sure intrigue will lead me to give it more thought, though. Valky From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun May 11 03:38:44 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:38:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professor Binns Message-ID: <13.1c7eb87e.2bef1fc4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57575 In a message dated 5/10/03 10:07:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dorigen at hotmail.com writes: > If Binns died of a curse from Tom Riddle, and is therefore a ghost, then a) > why hasn't he mentioned it to at least Dumbledore, and b) what is the > unfinished business that keeps him here (clearly it isn't teaching ...)? > The answer to both questions may be that Tom Riddle also cast a powerful > Memory Charm on Professor Binns. This would explain a) why he hasn't told > the world what happened to him, b) why he can remember every word of his > subject but has trouble remembering names and c) why he is still here > instead of wherever ghosts go; he is aware (consciously or otherwise) that > there's something he needs to deal with but doesn't know what it is. Well...wasn't the idea that Professor Binns was asleep? If Binns was asleep, he wouldn't have known that Riddle AKed him. I think he doesn't remember students' names because he doesn't want to. I had a teacher in eighth grade who didn't know any of our names - he just called us "Harry" and "Sally". He used to say that "You should all be named Harry and Sally with a number." *shrugs* There are some people who just don't feel the need to know names. The thing that's keeping him here could be that he doesn't know how he *really* died - he might not know that that is how he died. I think I like this idea Kelly. Good one! ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "You're like an unconquered land mass. Guys just want to stick their flags in and claim you." - KBK [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 11 03:59:08 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 22:59:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Professor Binns References: <13.1c7eb87e.2bef1fc4@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c31771$ad0c65c0$65ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57576 From: > In a message dated 5/10/03 10:07:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > dorigen at hotmail.com writes: > > If Binns died of a curse from Tom Riddle, and is therefore a ghost, then a) > > why hasn't he mentioned it to at least Dumbledore, and b) what is the > > unfinished business that keeps him here (clearly it isn't teaching ...)? > > The answer to both questions may be that Tom Riddle also cast a powerful > > Memory Charm on Professor Binns. This would explain a) why he hasn't told > > the world what happened to him, b) why he can remember every word of his > > subject but has trouble remembering names and c) why he is still here > > instead of wherever ghosts go; he is aware (consciously or otherwise) that > > there's something he needs to deal with but doesn't know what it is. > SnapesSlytherin wrote: > Well...wasn't the idea that Professor Binns was asleep? If Binns was asleep, > he wouldn't have known that Riddle AKed him. I think he doesn't remember > students' names because he doesn't want to. I had a teacher in eighth grade > who didn't know any of our names - he just called us "Harry" and "Sally". He > used to say that "You should all be named Harry and Sally with a number." > *shrugs* There are some people who just don't feel the need to know names. > The thing that's keeping him here could be that he doesn't know how he > *really* died - he might not know that that is how he died. > I think I like this idea Kelly. Good one! I was thinking that Binns was asleep, but perhaps still saw the green light. Since he was asleep when he was murdered, when he got up the next morning (as a ghost), he just figured he dreamed the green light and maybe even heard a voice. I think adding a Memory Charm into the mix is just a little much. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun May 11 04:57:50 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 00:57:50 EDT Subject: How did Harry close the witch? Message-ID: <131.1e6cd41d.2bef324e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57577 On page 276 of PoA (American): Harry quickly pulled out his wand, muttered, "Dissendium!" and shoved his bag into the statue, but before he could climb in himself, Neville came around the corner. "Harry! I forgot you weren't going to Hogsmeade either!" "Hi, Neville," said Harry, moving swiftly away from the statue and pushing the map back into his pocket. "What are you up to?" Harry and Neville set off without another word. As they turned the corner, Harry looked back. Snape was running one of his hands over the one-eyes witch's head, examining it closely. My question is: how did the witch's hump close? Harry puts his bag in, and then Neville comes. Does the door just shut itself after a few minutes? Or does someone have to shut it themselves? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sun May 11 05:44:36 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 01:44:36 EDT Subject: Multiple Muggleborns? Message-ID: <1c4.96af03c.2bef3d44@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57578 Oryomai brought up; >Muggleborn wizards are supposed to be a fairly uncommon occurance, right? Isn't it odd that the Creevy family has *two* wizards? < Actually no. Ron made the comment quoting Arthur which said that wizards would have died out if they hadn't married Muggles and one of the things that Harry discovered early on was how very true that was. In Gryffindor and Hufflepuff Muggleborns and halfbloods are quite common (we still do not know about Ravenclaw, but Penelope Clearwater was Basilisk bait, so it is probably true there as well). Muggleborn wizards are only rare among Muggles. And once a pairing has produced one magical child, it is all the more likely that they will produce others, since the genetic (or whatever other) material to produce magical children is clearly present. Petunia Dursley was almost certainly quite a near miss (as were her parents) and has probably got at least as much magic in her make up as Filch. If Vernon had any significant magic in his make up Dudly would be a wizard, and if Dudly marries (heaven forfend!) a girl with magic in her family he may end up producing wizards. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sun May 11 05:44:41 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 01:44:41 EDT Subject: The Diary Message-ID: <18a.19c602ac.2bef3d49@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57579 Heidi Tandy states: > But if he's telling them the truth, then he doesn't know enough to have told > Dobby to go to Harry. > He doesn't know enough to tell Dobby to go to Harry and tell him about the plot. True. He doesn't know about the plot because I can't see Lucius taking a whiney 12-year-old into his confidence on a matter as critical as the Riddle diary campaign. However, I think there was a whole net of tangled motives and confilcting adgendas going on at the beginning of CoS. I wrote my own take on this up and posted it on the Red Hen site, but it's too long to go into the whole thing here. But this is my take on the set up at the opening of the book. The way I see it. Dobby is of the "Harry Potter is the saviour of the wizarding world" persuasion regardless of who he works for. He really did want to keep Harry safe -- but he as NO authority to approach him without his family's permission. Lucius has authority to burn, but he is spearheading the plot and the last thing he wants if for Potter to get wind of it. Draco knows zippo about his father's plot, but, as the "young master' has the authority to give Dobby orders. Okay, that's how things stand at the opening of CoS. Now, Fred and George guess as soon as they hear about Dobby's visit that he was sent to keep Harry away from Hogwarts. Probably by someone like Draco Malfoy. And that explanation at the end of the book where Dobby--who originally told Harry that the plot did NOT have anything to do with You-Know-Who-- weasels around it by claiming that before TMR became You-Know-Who, he could be named freely, is a strong confirmation to the suspicion that Dobby is a very "Slytherin-minded" elf, even if he does not support the Dark Lord. So we now have Draco, freshly home from school, pouting, whining, sulking and generally throwing tantrums over Harry bloody Potter and his friends and their house points which did Slytherin out of the Cup. And we have Dobby who knows about a plot and is desperately seeking an excuse to go and warn Harry Potter about it. I really don't think it would have been all that difficult for Dobby to plant the idea in Draco's mind to order Dobby to try to keep Potter from returning to Hogwarts. By whatever means seemed good to him. It does not explain Dobby managing to hang around Hogwarts off and on through the school year and play around with the bludgers, but Lucius may have been away from home that week which let Dobby sneak out to the school. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sun May 11 05:44:45 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 01:44:45 EDT Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion (was PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie!) Message-ID: <19a.14bc87b6.2bef3d4d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57580 GulPlum reminds us; >During the Duelling Club, it becomes apparent that Harry is a Parselmouth. Snape throws Harry a "shrewd and calculating" look.< I think that the Dueling Club incident was another one of Dumbledore's set-ups. Very much like getting Harry into the same room as the Mirror of Erised in PS/SS. I still say that Dumbledore gave Harry the cloak and had Snape and Filtch "herd" Harry in the right direction (with Mrs. Norris, who could track him by scent's help) in order to acomplish that maneuver before the end of the Christmas hols. The Dueling Club nonsense reads very much the same way. Look at the timing; We have the Deathday party with the discovery of the petrified Mrs Norris. Harry hears the voice in the walls but does not confess to it. Dumbledore is suspicious. Dumbeldore remembers that Riddle was a Parselmouth, and since he has since concluded that Riddle was responsible for the last time the Chamber was opened, he now is forced to wonder whether that might be a factor this time as well. By this time he has had 50 years to mull over the rumors that had been flying about the castle the first time, including the rumors about Slytherin -- a known Parselmouth -- having left a monster that only his own heir could control. I think that at some point between the opening of the Chamber and the Dueling Club Dumbledore formed his hypothisis that Harry may have acquired something of Tom Riddle's powers, including Parselmouth, when the curse rebounded. He already knew that the second Fawkes wand had chosen Harry, and that may have been the springboard for his reasoning. Lockhart may have come up with the idea of the Dueling Club independently, or someone may have mentioned Dueling in the staff room and Lockhart grabbed the idea and ran with it. In any case it was on Dumbledore's direction that Snape agreed to assist, and to test the theory, since Harry was refusing to talk. Snape engineered the Potter/Malfoy match and he even gave Malfoy the Serpensortia spell. I do not think that he was acting totaly independently in this. Dumbledore wanted to know what Harry would do when confronted by a snake. Snape pretty obviously told him, for he was perfectly ready with the theory that Harry had gotten the gift of Parselmouth from Voldemort in a sort of magical transfusion once Harry *finally* told him that he had been hearing the Basilisk in the pipes. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sun May 11 06:25:40 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 06:25:40 -0000 Subject: The Diary In-Reply-To: <18a.19c602ac.2bef3d49@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: >> However, I think there was a whole net of tangled motives and >>conflicting agendas going on at the beginning of CoS. I wrote my >>own take on this up and posted it on the Red Hen site, but it's too >>long................ Hi Jodel, I would like to read your Red Hen post. I think Lucius motives in COS tell us a great deal about future plotlines. Truth be known I think there is more to the "slippery friend" insinuation than first meets the eye. My guess is that Lucius acquired a lot of treasure from Voldemorts demise, perhaps some that he could even want back at some stage. THe diary was a considerable treasure to part with so early in the game so its my guess he has something even more dastardly of Voldemorts in his keeping. Hence, I would very much like to see what others think of Lucius and his deeds. Valky (posting a second time because she forgot to ask Jodel for a link to RedHen) *BLUSH* could you post a link please Jo? From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Sat May 10 23:00:44 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:00:44 -0000 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace & Hogwarts defenses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57583 abigailnus wrote: >However, this discussion, if I'm not mistaken, started with a >question about Hogwarts defenses -if Hogwarts is so impregnable, >how is it possible that its Floo fireplaces are connected to the >outside world? I think that LMPP may have discovered this type of "travel" or "comminication" when they were students. Sirius and Lupin are the only to have ACTUALLY used this type of comminication that we've seen around Hogwarts (Snape may have used the "Floo Calling Card", but he didn't physically appear somewhere else). If LMPP can figure out how to become Animagi, find secret passages out of the castle that to this day not even Filch has found and create the Marauders Map which show every person on the grounds, why couldn't they figure out how to do this? bowlwoman From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Sun May 11 00:42:36 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:42:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052613756.3ebd9c7c1cfb7@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 57584 Quoting bowlwoman : > "koticzka" wrote: > > > 3)Was he (DD) Gryff? > > No? he seems to favour them, don't he? For the balance with weaker > > Snape, of course. > I believe in the first book, when Hermione first meets the boys, she does say that DD was in Gryff himself. -- Amber (who begs the pardon in advance to the mods who have to capitalize her i's because her computer won't....) ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Sun May 11 01:42:15 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 01:42:15 -0000 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: <20030510224231.45274.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57585 Huggs!Becky: I wonder. Just like his father who also was an excellent Quidditch player but didn't seem to play after his school days, I think it is really quite possible that after the battle and turmoil of fighting Voldemort the game simply won't mean as much to an adult Harry Potter as it does now. Now for New!Becky (that's ME!): I think that Harry's love of Quidditch is a way to prove himself to the other students, profesors, and himself. He's famous in the WW for something that he does indeed remember, but that he had no control over (that we know of as of yet...). But quidditch is something he's good at, without having to be taught, really. Remember when he first grabbed the broom and flew? He felt like he had finally found something he was a natural at. I think that as he grows older and more sure of himself and his abilities, he won't need such concrete proof as the snitch to prove he's good at things. The snitch itself is likely to be replaced by non-tangible things. IMHO. Becky From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sun May 11 06:49:21 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 06:49:21 -0000 Subject: Mrs Norris is a Mudblood. Ahhh Yes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57586 You know, this is bound to have been posted on several prior occasions, so I just mention it in passing. Well, perhaps also the hope that someone might direct me to a thread in the database that deals with it. It just occurred to me while skimming through COS today that the Basilisk attacked a cat first. A mudblood cat? Nooooo, can't be. Suddenly, creedence has been granted to a rumour I have long ignored. Mrs Norris is a witch. A halfblood witch trapped in a cat. Sorry sorry sorry, everyone if I have brought up something you all put to bed years ago, *BLUSHING* I am a bit slow. Valky From rstephens at northwestern.edu Sun May 11 03:48:43 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 03:48:43 -0000 Subject: New Hogwarts Profs: Bill and Fleur? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57587 JKR hinted that Fleur would be returning to Hogwarts in Book 5 ("I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish" GoF, 734) and it was clear she had taken a peculiar interest in Ron's brother Bill ("Fleur Delacour was eying Bill with great interest over her mother's shoulder." GoF, 616). Since the coming books are supposed to be full of raging hormones, I think this would be an obvious pairing in Book 5(though may instead come up in either Book 6 or 7). But how do both end up at Hogwarts? Fleur cannot be the new DADA, because she is no where near qualified. She could not even escape the grindylows in the second task (GoF, 506). At what subject does Fleur excel? It would appear Charms comes more naturally to her ("She demonstrated excellent use of the Bubble-Head Charm" GoF, 506). Prof. Flitwick is currently the Charms teacher and also the head of Ravenclaw. This is the table at which Fleur and her fellow Beauxbaxton students sat (GoF, 615). Thus, Fleur could have talked to Flitwick about a possible position as an Assistant Charms Professor (as Flitwick is getting up in the years). Eventually, this could lead to a full position if/when Flitwick decides to retire. Bill, as we know, works for Gringotts in Egypt as a curse breaker. Though some believe he could be the Care of Magical Creatures Professor while Hagrid is away on his "task", it seems that his brother Charlie is more qualified in that subject. He cannot be the DADA teacher in Book 5 because he is male. We to place him then? Perhaps Potions in Snape's apparent absence (this is another possibility for Fleur as well), or he could become an Assistant Professor in a number of fields. We honestly don't know much about his overall skills from the books, but he seems to be a successful wizard who could excel in many areas. I apologize in advance if this is a redundant argument, but I just joined the group (and am so excited there are others like me). Rach Admin Team Note: If you wish to pursue the possible pairing suggested in this post, please remember to use the SHIP prefix. Thank you From chia88au at yahoo.com.au Sun May 11 05:39:18 2003 From: chia88au at yahoo.com.au (chia88au) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 05:39:18 -0000 Subject: Observations and Questions In-Reply-To: <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57588 Patrick Dawson wrote: "GoF Ch.25 This isn't the first time that someone has waited outside the Gryffindor common room to let Harry out at night. So if the portrait can't be opened from the inside, how the heck do they get out in the morning?" Whenever someone opens the Gryffindor common room door for Harry, it's because he's invisible. For example, when Hermione opened it (from the outside) for Harry (GOF), it was because he was invisible. The Fat Lady would be suspicious if she swung forward and no one left or came in! "SS/PS Ch.15 Firenze says, about drinking unicorn blood: "You have slain something pure and defenceless to save yourself, and you will have but a half-life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips." But then he implies that the Elixir of Life will negate this effect. So is Voldemort in his new body still cursed from drinking the unicorn blood?" Somewhere, in one of the books, I sure it says that Quirrel would be the person who was cursed from drinking the blood, not Voldemort because it touched Quirrel's lips. So no, Voldemort would not be cursed. Great questions, I'd like to know the answers to them too... -Chia From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sun May 11 08:03:26 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 08:03:26 -0000 Subject: New Hogwarts Profs: Bill and Fleur? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rachelbeth007" wrote: > > Fleur cannot be the new DADA, because she is no where near > qualified. She could not even escape the grindylows in the second > task (GoF, 506). > > Bill could be the Care of Magical Creatures Professor while > Hagrid is away on his "task", but it seems that his brother Charlie > is more qualified in that subject. He cannot be the DADA teacher > in Book 5 because he is male. rachelbeth rachelbeth. tut tut You have gone and shattered ALL my delusions! I thought I had this one figured out. *Valky throws a hand in the air in exasperation* Back to the drawing board again. Ok, I thought I had it pegged that Fleur would be in Potions and Bill would be COMC and DADA would see the reprisal of the MS Figg we all ponder so often. Foiled again! You are right, Bill it seems is suited to DADA but DADA 5 is a female we have been told. The talent we have observed Fleur performing is charms but the charms position is not vacant!!!! My only thought is that Bill was Head Boy and Fleur a Triwizard champion. THey must have other talents we don't know of. Oh and by the way I have thought of another vacancy at Hogwarts in Book 5. Keeper of the keys. I wonder does filling this role involve Bill? Or even Remus Lupin? just to thicken the mix a little... hehe Valky From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sun May 11 09:09:22 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:09:22 -0000 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace & Hogwarts defenses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > abigailnus wrote: > > >However, this discussion, if I'm not mistaken, started with a > >question about Hogwarts defenses -if Hogwarts is so impregnable, > >how is it possible that its Floo fireplaces are connected to the > >outside world? > > I think that LMPP may have discovered this type of "travel" > or "comminication" when they were students. Sirius and Lupin are the > only to have ACTUALLY used this type of comminication that we've seen > around Hogwarts (Snape may have used the "Floo Calling Card", but he > didn't physically appear somewhere else). Do you mean that only Sirius and co. know how to do the head in the fireplace trick? Because that is clearly contradicted by the fact that Amos Diggory does the same thing in the Burrow early in GoF. In fact, the narrative even tells us that, had Harry not seen Amos appear in the Burrow in this manner, the appearance of Sirius's head in the fireplace would have scared him out of his wits. Not to mention that it is Amos, and not Sirius, who shows us that his head is physically in the fireplace by accepting a piece of toast from Molly. Abigail From steinber at inter.net.il Sun May 11 08:36:48 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 08:36:48 -0000 Subject: JKR the non-conformist Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57591 Dear All, I'm interested in a survey of JKR's many ways of flouting or twisting literary conventions. Some of these have been mentioned on this list before, such as the way Harry's hero status flies despite the fact that he hasn't won any of his battles on his own, and seems destined always to need the help of his friends. Some others include Harry's extreme lack of introspection and self- analysis, in contradiction to the typical teenage hero who, ever since the `70's, has been suffering from angst (rarely bangst) and self-searching to an equally extreme degree. A third example is JKR's initial opening to the series, the first page of PS/SS, which openly and directly introduces us to the main characters and the setting, in contradiction to the opaque, teaser openings popular (and even considered necessary) since the early decades of the 20th century. She even hyperbolizes her directness on p.2, US hardcover, writing (I'm approximating, since my books are lent out), "On the gray and dreary Tuesday that our story begins ." Fourth example: Narratives have been using the weather as mood-setter forever. JKR reverse-parodies this in the above quote, when she writes (again approx.), "there was nothing in the gray, dreary skies to cause anyone to suspect that strange and unusual things were about to happen." All through the series, she persistently paints weather portraits that have nothing whatsoever to do with the mood, though they often help the plot. I am sure that there are dozens more such examples. This subject fascinates me like no other in HP, and I'd love it if you experts could toss out many, many more cases, to eventually be compiled in Fantastic Posts, allowing HP scholars to study JKR's non-conformist writing for generations to come. Thanks in advance, The Admiring Skeptic From steinber at inter.net.il Sun May 11 08:38:02 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 08:38:02 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57592 This thread petered out a few days ago, but I'd just like to add the following: Harry's morality must be viewed as a developing thing. At age 11, all he knew of authority was the Dursleys, who were idiots to be despised. Over the past 4 years at Hogwarts, he's come quite far. In GoF, he hardly broke rules at all. It seems Lupin's comment in PoA really made an impression. A kid who learns to respect rules in adolescence after the poor start he got as a child - well, who can complain? The Admiring Skeptic From echa_schneider at mac.com Sun May 11 09:37:50 2003 From: echa_schneider at mac.com (echa_schneider at mac.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 02:37:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Professor Binns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B114935-8394-11D7-A503-000A9566BD48@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57593 Maybe Binns is a ghost because he never felt he taught anyone anything. He's doomed to stay at Hogwarts, teaching history until the day comes that he finally feels that he's taught a student something worthwhile and that the student really cared. Then he will finally be free! Echa, who should really be getting to sleep. From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Sun May 11 10:33:27 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 03:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: <1052613756.3ebd9c7c1cfb7@webmail.bradley.edu> Message-ID: <20030511103327.49112.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57594 > "koticzka" wrote: > > > 3)Was he (DD) Gryff? > > No? he seems to favour them, don't he? For the balance with weaker > > Snape, of course. > Then Amber wrote: I believe in the first book, when Hermione first meets the boys, she does say that DD was in Gryff himself. And I, Odile, write: Yep, here's the canon you are referring to: PS, pp 79-80 (UK pb) "[Hermione] said all this very fast ...'Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I hear Dumbledore himself was one...' " Odile, who is up waaaaaay too early on a Sunday. From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Sun May 11 10:59:50 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 03:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Observations and Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030511105950.7657.qmail@web13114.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57595 Patrick Dawson wrote: "GoF Ch.25 This isn't the first time that someone has waited outside the Gryffindor common room to let Harry out at night. So if the portrait can't be opened from the inside, how the heck do they get out in the morning?" Then Chia replied: Whenever someone opens the Gryffindor common room door for Harry, it's because he's invisible. For example, when Hermione opened it (from the outside) for Harry (GOF), it was because he was invisible. The Fat Lady would be suspicious if she swung forward and no one left or came in! And Odile (that would be me): In PS, when Harry uses the invisibility Cloak the first time: PS, p 151 (UK) "He crept out of the dormitory, down the stairs, across the common room and climbed through the portrait hole. "'Who's there?' squawked the Fat Lady. Harry said nothing. He walked quickly down the corridor. [end quote] There is no specifics of how he got back in, but he seemed to have got back in without any trouble from the Fat Lady. (Right?) As to Ch. 25 of GoF, p 398 (UK): "...Harry sneaked up to bed, put on the Cloak, crept back downstairs and...waited for the portait hole to open. This time it was Ron who waited outside to give the Fat Lady the password ('Banana Fritters'). 'Good luck,' Ron muttered, climing into the common room as Harry crept out past him." [end quote] My take is that it is not so much that Harry does not want to arouse the suspicions of the Fat Lady - certainly if there were other students lounging around the common room, they would freak if the portrait hole opened and closed "by itself" (I would!) In PS, the first time he used it was over the Christmas holidays, when most everyone else was away anyhow. How long has the Fat Lady been the guardian of the Gryffindor entrance? I am wondering if she was around during the heyday of the Marauders, and, if so (as is likely), then she would have been (somewhat) mindful of James sneaking out using the Cloak (and perhaps his father as well? and so on...) Has this been covered before? Odile From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 11 13:19:02 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 06:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030511131902.71749.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57596 --- Steve wrote: > Seriously, I think Harry's investment in the > Weasley brothers business > will end up turning into a very lucrative > investment. I also suspect > as their business takes off, the Weasley > brother will begin to > diversify and become one of the most successful > and largest companies > in the wizard world. Lynn: I can see it now. The big showdown between Voldemort and the DEs and Dumbledore and all his supporters. They are lined up in battle formation ready to duel to the end. Voldemort and the DEs raise their wands, point, incant and suddenly every single wand turns into some kind animal. Fred calls out, "Oh, we forgot to tell you, we switched your wands last night when you were sleeping!" Voldemort and the DEs are defeated and the Weasley Twins are celebrated through the WW and their business makes them billionaires. You hear Molly Weasley in the background saying, "And I thought they had no ambition." Lynn (who thinks if Fred and George got Lupin and Sirius to join them would definitely end up putting Zonko's out of business) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 11 13:52:59 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 06:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie! In-Reply-To: <004901c3175c$3b460320$99ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030511135259.4168.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57597 --- Kelly wrote: > But why > would he be a ghost if his death > was that peaceful? > > I agree that CoS is the book that holds my > attention the least, but I can > see where so many little things that still > don't seem that important to us > in that book may become extremely important > later. It's for these tiny > things that I keep rereading CoS. Lynn: One thing that bothers me about the speculation that the person's state of mind at death or the manner of death is what turns them into a ghost is that very few people die happy or peaceful, particularly it seems in the wizarding world. If that were the case, James and Lily Potter should be ghosts. Though a case may be made that it was over too quickly for James, Lily knew Voldemort was trying to kill her child and there is no way she died anywhere near happy. Bertha Jorkins should be a ghost. I doubt she was happy being tortured by Voldemort so he could break the Memory Charm. What about all those people who died during Voldemort's first reign? Why aren't they ghosts as well? For that matter, why isn't Cedric? Yes, he had just won the Tournament but his death wasn't peaceful and he was apprehensive right before his death. I've always wondered if it's more of a life thing, people happy or satisified in their lives don't become ghosts whereas people who may be unhappy or dissatisfied with their lives who end up being ghosts. Binns may have died in his sleep but if he was a lonely man, dissatisfied with life, he would have become a ghost. Moaning Myrtle seems to have just been an unhappy person overall. Even Nearly Headless Nick seems never to be satisfied about something. I'm really interested in finally finding out why one person becomes a ghost and others don't. As to CoS, I agree that there may be very important things in it, which is why I continue to read it in sections. I just can't bring myself to read the whole thing through. When I try I end up falling asleep so it has been very good for my insominia. LOL Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 11 15:02:19 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 May 2003 15:02:19 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1052665339.31.39317.m6@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57598 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 11, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 11 15:38:53 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 May 2003 15:38:53 -0000 Subject: File - ADMIN OoP Spoiler.txt Message-ID: <1052667533.30232901.21188.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57599 Subject: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Moderator Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Mods have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius and Azkaban." Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 11 15:38:53 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 May 2003 15:38:53 -0000 Subject: File - Nimbus Fundraiser.txt Message-ID: <1052667534.30233259.21188.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57600 Hi all -- Over the last four years, HP4GU has been the best online source for in-depth, mature discussion of all things Potter. The list has burgeoned to 6,300 members, more than twelve sister and regional lists, and the finest collection of Fantastic Posts essays about HP that one can locate on the web. Regional meetings are no longer so regional. In New York City, Chicago, London, Germany and all over the world in fact, we have met, sometimes in handfuls, sometimes in large numbers. And now, this summer, Harry Potter fans take the next step. More than 400 fans will converge on Orlando, Florida, to create the single largest gathering yet, at the *first ever* symposium centered solely on Harry Potter. But you know all this - or you do if you've been around lately. What you might not know is that Nimbus - 2003 needs HP4GU's help. And HP4GU needs your help. This vitally important first year's symposium - and therefore future symposia - depends on your support. Many people have said things like, "Well, I can't afford Nimbus this year, so I'll wait for next year." We certainly understand if you can't attend this year. But, if you can't go this time, there's an easy way you can help ensure that there is a next time. When the Nimbus - 2003 team formed in June of 2002, they envisioned an event that would set the tone. They saw the groundwork for future events, perhaps even eventually large enough to rent our own castle in Scotland for a long week-end. If event after event can prove our sincerity and our integrity, then perhaps we will win the respect of WB, JKR's agents, and even JKR herself. We could position this chain of symposia to become the official convention for adults, and possibly even become the preferred symposium for pursuit of the books. But without fan support, none of that can happen. Corporate sponsorship, which the event's organizers believed would be a natural source of funding, has not materialized as anticipated. Even corporations with significant ties to HP merchandise have been uninterested. The Nimbus - 2003 team attributes this to changing relationships of licensees to WB, the struggle of an unhistoried, untested event, and of course the general economy and world situation. Despite their hope that they would be able to supplement registrations with corporate contributions and lift the burden from the fans, the team finds themselves in need of grassroots assistance. Since Nimbus is the event that HP4GU inspired, they have turned to us, as well as the corners of the fandom, for that help. That is why, in addition to lending its reputation and support to Nimbus - 2003, we at HP4GU would like to make that support financial and be an official Nimbus "Symposium Sponsor." Nimbus offers Symposium Sponsorhip at the level of $15,000 (USD). That sounds like a lot. But remember how we said that the list boasts over 6,000 members? That means that if only half of you are able to donate $5 apiece, HP4GU can realize its goal. If you can give more, please give more, because we know there are those among you who cannot give any, much as you might like to. This sponsorship would pay for: ** Internet cafe, so that attendees and presenters can connect with HP fans around the world who are unable to attend Nimbus - 2003. Cost includes computer rental and internet access costs. [$5,000] ** Coverage of honoraria, hotel, and airfare for the Special Guests, including: Judith Krug, Connie Neal, John Granger, Philip Nel, and Roger Highfield [$3,500] ** Coverage of the Judith Krug Keynote Luncheon (Judith Krug is the Director of the Office of Intellectual Freedom for the American Library Association and will speak on the subject of censorship and book banning, with reference to Harry Potter in particular) [$3,000] ** The Farewell Breakfast on Sunday [$2,500] ** Welcoming Feast and Meet-and-Greet on Thursday night [$1,000] Moreover, for those of you who are U.S. taxpayers, your donation to the HP4GU Nimbus - 2003 sponsorship may be tax-deductible. HP Education Fanon, Inc., the company created to oversee these periodic recurring symposia, has been granted tax-exempt 501(c)3 status as an educational organization. That means your contribution carries the same advantages to you as a donation to your local charity of choice. We hope you will be part of the only event to grow out of the excellent, deep, shocking, and hilarious conversations you've enjoyed online. Be part of the vision shared by list member, elf, geist, and moderator alike. Even if you can't attend - even if you will - you have a chance to help make Harry Potter history. With your help, we can continue to prove that HP4GU is one of the best HP communities around - on the Web, or in person. With your help, that reputation will only be heightened, through the contact with and exchange between fans and academics and professionals who are equally enamoured of the books and all they represent. Plus, you'll be helping to create an amazing reality which for some will reinforce - or *create* - longstanding friendships and new communities. To make a donation, simply send funds via paypal to: hpfgu-donate at hp2003.org Or, if you prefer, you may send your donation (whether in US funds or other currency) to: Harry Potter Symposium - 2003 PO Box 18769 Rochester, NY 14618-0769 We hope that whether you can join us or not, you will consider making a contribution to show your support - not just for this year's event, but to ensure the future of any other similar conferences brought to you on behalf of *your* email list: HPforGrownups. Yours in anticipation of Nimbus - 2003, The HP4GU Moderators P.S. Don't forget, only $5 from you will do the trick! Follow this link (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/nimbus-2003) to contribute to a Nimbus - 2003 Symposium Sponsorship today! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 11 15:38:53 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 May 2003 15:38:53 -0000 Subject: File - ADMIN OoP Spoilers.txt Message-ID: <1052667533.30233061.21188.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57601 Subject: ADMIN: New OOP: prefix and spoiler policy Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Moderator Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Mods have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius and Azkaban." Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Sun May 11 13:23:38 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Katherine) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Protecting Harry (Was: Re: PS/SS etc.) Message-ID: <20030511132338.A8C983D0B@xmxpita.excite.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57602 > Ladi_Lyndi>> The duelling scene between Malfoy and Harry> seemed so contrived to me, just to bring out that> Harry spoke Parseltongue. > Kelly wrote:>I've always found this scene fascinating. As you pointed out, Snape toldDraco to cast that particular spell. Unlike everyone else in the room,Snape did not appear to be shocked, horrified, or even really surprised whenHarry spoke Parseltongue. Instead, he looks at Harry in a shrewd,calculating way. I've always interpreted this scene as Snape suspecting forsome reason that Harry might have this ability and then having hissuspicions confirmed. I actually think Snape knows quite a bit when itcomes to Harry and his ultimate destiny Mycropht opines: I've given quite a bit of thought to this, and while it may seem extremely goofy, I am wondering if this all ties into the powerful ancient magic that protects Harry. We know that the Fidelius Charm, a charm of friendship and trust is ultimately what failed the young Potter family. When acids won't dissolve the stain, you switch to a base. Hence my theory. Perhaps Harry is actually protected by an ancient magic whereby those who hate/disregard him are the best guardians. Have you noticed how no matter where poor Harry goes there is always someone who treats him with utter antipathy. Yet he's safe. The Dursleys, where he resided safely for 11 years, is where he was treated like utter cack. Then he moves to Hogwarts where Snape is repeated demeaning and vitriolic. Yet Snape is repeatedly on top of protecting Harry: --At the first Quidditch Match --Heading off Quirrell during the Halloween Troll Incident and many other incidences. It's just a theory, but there it is. Mycropht _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alison.williams at virgin.net Sun May 11 13:31:37 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (bluetad2001) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 13:31:37 -0000 Subject: JKR the non-conformist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57603 > Dear All, > > I'm interested in a survey of JKR's many ways of flouting or twisting > literary conventions. > - Examples snipped - > Thanks in advance, > > The Admiring Skeptic Oooh fun! I've tried many times to explain to people that she does this and I'd be delighted to have a compliation of evidence! The best I can offer is a version of something I wrote elsewhere in response to an accusation that her books were 'predictable' in their treatment of the good/evil theme (once I'd got up off the floor). Let's see now. Pre Book 1 - Good has already, by some means that is not entirely understood, deprived evil of its power and forced it into exile. Book 1 - Good prevents resurgent evil getting what it wants simply by acting in accordance with its own, good, nature. Book 2 - Good actively seeks out and defeats the servant of evil by virtue of loyalty to a higher good and by the use of deadly force! Book 3 - Good discerns the difference between the followers of good and the followers of evil and liberates the former while showing mercy to the weak. Book 4 - Good and evil meet head on - the result being broadly speaking a draw, with the lingering threat of a re-match with reinforcements. Now I don't call all of that 'predictable'. Hoping for lots more examples. Alison From lissbell at colfax.com Sun May 11 16:51:21 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:51:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle's Origins and Where Voldemortdid his Killing References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030510122059.00bc9dc0@mail.kriselda.net> Message-ID: <3EBE7F89.56BAA5D9@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57604 (snipped Kriselda's statements introducing the idea that "last remaining" can only mean "only remaining") Kriselda wrote: > I understand that you're making a distinction between "only", meaning sole, > and "last" meaning "end of a sequence" here, but because of the word > "remaining" that distinction, in my opinion, is moot. The qualifier > "remaining" means that something is "what is left of a given set". To say > that something is the "last remaining" of a thing means explicitly that no > other thing of that kind exists any longer, though other things of that > kind used to. Essentially, "last remaining" and "only remaining" are > interchangeable. Lissa replied: Hi Kriselda. I agree that the phrase "last remaining" as commonly used is interchangeable with the phrase "only remaining". Certainly Dumbledore intends Harry to interpret his words to mean "only remaining". I don't, however, agree that this meaning is explicit. I think it's merely implicit. From a strictly literal and logical sense, I believe the phrase can legitimately take on other meanings. Does this stretch the laws of language beyond all reason? Absolutely. Does it break them? In my opinion, no. I can tell from the tone and care of your statements that you wholly believe what you've argued here. And I do want to let you know that your reply made me think long and hard about whether that key phrase truly is ambiguous. I still believe that it is. This is, of course, just my opinion. And my opinion could be pure piffle. :) I wish I had the energy to explicate that whole scene in Ch 18 of CoS right now. (I believe a close analysis reveals that Dumbledore is working hard to avoid directly addressing the two primary questions on Harry's mind. In my opinion, the "last remaining descendant" phrase is just a part of several carefully constructed comments designed to lead Harry to conclude things Dumbledore never actually states.) I'll try to do so--and give you a more complete response--when I have time later this week. Thanks for your input, Kriselda. It was much appreciated even though you clearly don't agree with me. :) Cheers, Lissa From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 11 17:23:22 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:23:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? References: <20030511131902.71749.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c317e2$067a4530$8eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57605 > > Lynn: > > I can see it now. The big showdown between > Voldemort and the DEs and Dumbledore and all his > supporters. They are lined up in battle > formation ready to duel to the end. Voldemort > and the DEs raise their wands, point, incant and > suddenly every single wand turns into some kind > animal. Fred calls out, "Oh, we forgot to tell > you, we switched your wands last night when you > were sleeping!" Voldemort and the DEs are > defeated and the Weasley Twins are celebrated > through the WW and their business makes them > billionaires. You hear Molly Weasley in the > background saying, "And I thought they had no > ambition." > It's kind of funny. I wrote a story once where Voldemort is defeated by something Fred and George created. It's cool to see someone else thinking along the same lines. 8) Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 11 17:56:05 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 10:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] File - ADMIN OoP Spoiler.txt In-Reply-To: <1052667533.30232901.21188.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030511175605.62435.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57606 Question: It is possible while reading the book something comes up in let's say the 1st or 2nd chapter that you might want to comment on or speculate on. (But you haven't gone beyond that point yet) Probably won't happen as we'll be too busy reading the book! But in that case, could you put in the subject OOP CH.1? Or OOP CH2., to let people know it contains information on the book but only up to the first or second (or whatever number) chapter? That way people who are reading the book will know they can safely read the spoiler as they've passed that point while others can avoid the post entirely. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From noybycb at yahoo.ca Sun May 11 17:28:03 2003 From: noybycb at yahoo.ca (Alia) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 17:28:03 -0000 Subject: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? In-Reply-To: <3EBC65B9.9060808@Dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan Delaney wrote: > I was wondering (while considering what Harry would do if he got > expelled), what is Harry going to do when he graduates? Someone > mentioned a few weeks ago that young wizards most likely stay at their > parents' houses for a year or two after graduation when their first jobs > are not all that good, as many people do in the muggle world. But Harry > most definitely does not want to keep staying with the Dursleys once he > becomes, for all practical purposes, an adult. But he also doesn't > really have anywhere to go in the wizarding world, except to possibly > move in with the Weasleys for a while. Well, if this scenario comes to pass that he has a choice of where to go once he graduates, there's always Sirius (whether his name's cleared or not) or if he must maintain the public appearances, he might stay with Remus. Alternatively, if his real family is as wealthy and important as is implied, then maybe there is a house out there that he owns, or will officially when he comes of age. > > And what sort of career path is Harry likely to follow? Politition? > Auror? Teacher? Quidditch star? As for a career path - well, assuming he actually lives past his seventh year (I'm not sure this is certain - I hope, but...) I'm sure that if Voldie isn't dead, or can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be permanently dead this time, he'll feel obligated to somehow continue the fight. Whether this would be through Dumbledore (if he lives), the ministry (Aurors), or some other group, I don't think he'd feel he has the right, given who/what he is to stop fighting. On the other hand, if he keeps fighting outside of full-time Auror duties, he might consider becoming a teacher as well (as this would still be helping as, to make sure others are ready to defend themselves). Or Quidditch - this could work very well for him if he were doing any spying say - lots of travel, interracting with lots of people... I see him taking up Quidditch especially in a situation where a)he lives, and b)Voldie is completely dead, or so soundly thrashed that Harry feels comfortable that he won't be a serious threat again for many years. Cheers, Alia From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun May 11 18:34:31 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:34:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius, Fudge, and the PM References: <1052612831.2134.5558.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000301c317eb$f6ceb080$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 57608 Darrin wrote: > > I think it's more explicit than that. Page 33, PoA UK. > > "I have the Prime Minister's assurance that he will not breathe a > word of Black's true identity to anyone. And let's face it- who'd > believe him if he did?" -- Fudge. > > That indicates a personal conversation between Fudge and the P.M. > That further indicates the P.M. knows EXACTLY what Black is, and if > there is a conversation between Fudge and the P.M., then I think it's > not a bad assumption that channels have been opened in the past. I think there's another interpretation which can be put on it, one which would in my view be safer for the WW than trusting _anything_ to the Prime Minsters of muggledom (thinking about the last half dozen, I can't think of one who would have been trustworthy to keep the big secret, even if they had believed it in the first place!) Fudge is a self-aggrandising, pompous little sod and I'm sure he would have said "The PM has assured me personally" rather than "I have the PM's assurance" if there had been a direct conversation. Also we don't know what the PM believes "Black's true identity" to be (a terrorist, perhaps). My own little theory (apologies for repeating it, 'cos I've told it once fairly recently already) goes like this: in the Cabinet Office is a person from the MoM. They are officially on secondment from another department (so no one ever bothers about their pay and conditions). No one knows exactly what they are doing there (any conversation about them immediately goes off onto another topic) and indeed it's very rare for anyone to notice they are there at all. What they are actually doing is spying on the muggles to make sure that the MoM can counter anything which might put the WW in jeopardy - a new observation satellite which might need to be enspelled, a planning application to knock down Diagon Alley, proposed military manoeuvres through the middle of Hogsmeade, etc, etc - and advise the MoM that counter measures are necessary. But also to pass on any messages. Prime Ministers come and go, but bureaucrats are always there. When Sirius escaped, my feeling is that the PM was given a warning that a dangerous international terrorist was on the loose in the UK and that all measures should be taken to track him down without alarming the public: for publicity purposes he should be described as an escaped murderer. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From carmenharms at yahoo.com Sun May 11 18:35:37 2003 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:35:37 -0000 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace, was Re: OK, The Portkey In-Reply-To: <001301c31729$749dc320$8305a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > > > As for whether Floo is the mechanism for the head-in-the-fireplace > communication--I think it is. I don't think it is such a stretch to go from > sending your voice by Floo, which I think canon supports, to someone, to > sticking your head in the fire to talk to them directly. > > For the Snape/Lupin interaction, I think that Snape could have stuck just > his head in the fireplace to ask Lupin directly... Now comes snazzzybird to say -- I'm so glad to see this topic brought up! I've meant to bring it up myself, but somehow the time never seemed right. I have been extremely curious about head-in-the-fireplace communication (which I will hereafter abbreviate to HITF). In fact, one thing I'm hoping to see in OoP is the "initiating" end of such a conversation. We know that the sender can look all around the receiver's room, as though he were physically in that room. We know that the flames that surround his head are harmless to him. However, the receiver has no such protection: remember, Mrs. Weasley used an implement to give Amos Diggory the toast; she didn't just reach into the fire. We know what this conversation looks like from an observer at the receiving end. What does an observer on the sending end see? Is the person who initiated the call on his hands and knees before the fireplace, with his head in the flames? Is his head visible to the observer? If so, does it look to the observer as though the person just has his head in the fireplace -- or can he see, dimly through the flames, the room at the receiving end? (I'm thinking of a telephone conversation, in which the people on the phone can hear ambient noises in each other's homes, and if the telephoners speak loudly enough, other people in the room can hear the voice coming out of the handset.) Does this communication only work if there's a fire in the other person's fireplace -- or does an incoming HITF communication cause a magical fire to ignite there? What happens if someone tries to Floo in at the time there's a HITF? What if (say) Arthur Weasley tries to call home, but Mrs. Figg's head is already in the fireplace? Does he get a busy signal? Or is there such a thing as three-way HITF??? Okay, now I'm getting silly... but I'm serious about wanting to know how it works. What do you think? --snazzzybird, who promises not to even bring up Caller ID. From jmmears at comcast.net Sun May 11 18:47:32 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:47:32 -0000 Subject: "Good Slyth"(was General Stereotypes,battle of the sexes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57610 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > But seriously, I have to believe that she is setting us up for one of > the Slyth students to come to the light. Dumbledore's speech about > making choices and easy vs. right paths had to have sunk into > someone's thick skull. > > And no, I don't think it'll be Draco, nor do I think it'll be Crabbe > or Goyle. They are basically house-elves without the intelligence and > good fashion sense. > > Of the current crop, perhaps it'll be Pansy. That would be a hoot if > Draco's apparent girlfriend is a Muggle-Born. > > But it could be a new Slyth we get in the next three books, either > someone who is younger or someone who simply hasn't been pointed out > or developed. (Like Malcolm Braddock, or that big bloke, Warrington > or someone else I'm not thinking of.) > > My guess is, watch carefully at any new Slytherin names we get. There > could be your good Slyth. Actually I've had a theory for some time on this topic that I've never mentioned on the list. I have the strong impression that the "good" Slyth will be none other than Millicant Bulstrode. My reasoning is based on several things, the first of which is the somewhat pivotal role she played in CoS. She's the only Slythern girl besides Pansy P. to be described at all, we know she has a cat since Hermione mistakes the cat hair on her robes, for Millicent's own hair when making the Polyjuice Potion, JKR has mentioned in an interview (can't recall which one) that cats are significant in the series, and finally, in the "Harry Potter and Me" screen captures in the Photos section, the first symbol after each students' name is a circle or a square, which is either left white, or blacked out. Unlike either Crabbe or Goyle or Tracey Davis (whose squares are blacked out) Millicent's circle is left white. JKR stated that the entries by the names in her notes indicate the students in Harry's year, their backgrounds, and allegiances. The last column obviously indicates the house the student is sorted into, the second symbol seems to indicate parentage (ie; pureblood, half-blood, muggle-born), but it's unclear what the first symbol means. I think that it's a hint as to where the various student's loyalties will lie. Following this theory, Millicent (and one other Slyth whose name is unclear and hasn't been mentioned in the books, yet) could very well end up supporting the good guys. Now, I know that she's not very nice to Hermione when she has her in the headlock at the dueling club, but just because she has the typical unpleasant Slythrn personality, doesn't mean she can't choose the correct side when the time comes (coughSnapecough). I figure that due to her general appearance ("She was large and square and her heavy jaw jutted aggressively." CoS, The Dueling Club), she hasn't been treated very kindly in her own house, particularly by Pansy Parkinson's "gang" of girls. I don't imagine that Draco & Co. have treated her very well either. She may not have as much loyalty to her house, as may be expected. So Darrin (welcome back, BTW) I agree that there has to be a *good* Slythern somewhere, and that it's not going to be Draco, Crabbe, or Goyle. My money is on Millicent. Jo Serenadust From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 11 19:14:40 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:14:40 -0500 Subject: Clue for the "ancient protection?" References: Message-ID: <002901c317f1$92fe91a0$8eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57611 I was rereading the first two chapters in PS/SS last night, when I came across this passage. The Dursleys are discussing what to do with Harry when Mrs. Figg calls to say she can't take Harry because she broke her leg. "You could just leave me here," Harry put in hopefully (snip what Harry could do alone). Aunt Petunia looked as though she'd just swallowed a lemon. "And come back and find the house in ruins?" she snarled. "I won't blow up the house," said Harry, but they weren't listening. (US hardcover p. 23) It's interesting that Petunia uses that particular phrase to describe how disastrous it could be if they left Harry home alone. Maybe part of his protection is to not be alone outside of the WW. They usually leave him with Mrs. Figg. Since she's not available, they toss out the names of Aunt Marge (Vernon's relative) and Yvonne (friend of Petunia). We can speculate why the Dursleys or Mrs. Figg could protect him, but why would Marge and Yvonne be considered adequate protection against "finding the house in ruins?" Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Sun May 11 18:24:04 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:24:04 -0000 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace & Hogwarts defenses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57612 bowlwoman wrote: > > I think that LMPP may have discovered this type of "travel" > > or "comminication" when they were students. Sirius and Lupin are > the > > only to have ACTUALLY used this type of comminication that we've > seen > > around Hogwarts (Snape may have used the "Floo Calling Card", but > he > > didn't physically appear somewhere else). abigailnus wrote: > Do you mean that only Sirius and co. know how to do the head in the > fireplace trick? Because that is clearly contradicted by the fact > that Amos Diggory does the same thing in the Burrow early in GoF. > In fact, the narrative even tells us that, had Harry not seen Amos > appear in the Burrow in this manner, the appearance of Sirius's head > in the fireplace would have scared him out of his wits. Not to > mention that it is Amos, and not Sirius, who shows us that his head > is physically in the fireplace by accepting a piece of toast from > Molly. now bowlwoman again: No, I didn't mean the only ones to do this type of travel at all, just the only ones to figure out how to get around the defenses at Hogwarts to travel/communicate via Floo powder. I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my original post. I wanted to say that Lupin/Siruis are the only ones we've seen onscreen do this type of travel WITHIN Hogwarts or TO Hogwarts. bowlwoman From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Sun May 11 18:54:33 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:54:33 -0000 Subject: Observations and Questions In-Reply-To: <20030511105950.7657.qmail@web13114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57613 --- Odile Falaise wrote: > How long has the Fat Lady been the guardian of the > Gryffindor entrance? I am wondering if she was around > during the heyday of the Marauders, and, if so (as is > likely), then she would have been (somewhat) mindful > of James sneaking out using the Cloak (and perhaps his > father as well? and so on...) And now bowlwoman: In GoF (US hardback, page 616), we see that the Fat Lady was around during Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's schooldays: >>> "And the Fat Lady?" said Bill. "She was here in my time," said Mrs. Weasley. "She gave me such a telling off one night when I got back to the dormitory at four in the morning --" <<<<< Since the Weasley parents are definitely older than the Marauders, the Fat Lady would had to have been there during LMPP's time at Hogwarts. The only exception could possibly be if she took a sabbatical for 7 or so years, but I deem that highly unlikely. That paragraph also states that the Fat Lady wasn't above reprimanding the students when she felt they were out too late, so I would speculate that LMPP had to use precautions similar to the ones HRH use now in order to avoid the Fat Lady getting on their cases. bowlwoman From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 11 20:26:24 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:26:24 -0000 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace & Hogwarts defenses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57614 > now bowlwoman again: > > No, I didn't mean the only ones to do this type of travel at all, > just the only ones to figure out how to get around the defenses at > Hogwarts to travel/communicate via Floo powder. > > I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my original post. > I wanted to say that Lupin/Siruis are the only ones we've seen > onscreen do this type of travel WITHIN Hogwarts or TO Hogwarts. > It is also possible that Dumbledore told Sirius how to get around the defenses. Remember, he was in contact with Sirius at the same time Harry was in GoF. Dumbledore would have had his reasons for wanting Sirius and Harry to be able to speak. Darrin From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sun May 11 20:41:42 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (Maria Kirilenko) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 13:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: <002901c317f1$92fe91a0$8eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030511204142.86388.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57615 Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: I was rereading the first two chapters in PS/SS last night, when I came across this passage. "Aunt Petunia looked as though she'd just swallowed a lemon. "And come back and find the house in ruins?" she snarled." It's interesting that Petunia uses that particular phrase to describe how disastrous it could be if they left Harry home alone. Maybe part of his protection is to not be alone outside of the WW. Maria:I've always assumed that Petunia referred to the Potters' house in Godric's Hollow that was left in ruins after Voldemort tried to AK Harry. Basically, it fits to description of "blowing up the house." But as a different explanation, we could speculate that Harry is safe in Privet Drive No. 4 only when the Dursleys are there with him. Maria --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rstephens at northwestern.edu Sun May 11 21:03:16 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:03:16 -0000 Subject: Rowling's Roster System (Was: Re: "Good Slyth" (was: stereotypes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57616 serenadust wrote: the Photos section, the first symbol after each students' name is a > circle or a square, which is either left white, or blacked out. > Unlike either Crabbe or Goyle or Tracey Davis (whose squares are > blacked out) Millicent's circle is left white> > > JKR stated that the entries by the names in her notes indicate the > students in Harry's year, their backgrounds, and allegiances. The > last column obviously indicates the house the student is sorted > into, the second symbol seems to indicate parentage (ie; pureblood, > half-blood, muggle-born), but it's unclear what the first symbol > means. I think that it's a hint as to where the various student's > loyalties will lie. Following this theory, Millicent (and one other > Slyth whose name is unclear and hasn't been mentioned in the books, > yet) could very well end up supporting the good guys. I'm not theorizing on the "good slyth" topic; instead, I've taken a closer look at the screen grabs mentioned by serenadust above. I believe the first symbol merely indicates gender (hollow circle=female, filled in box=male). Looking at the two pages shown in the screen grabs, this theory holds. Thus, the first symbol is not indicative of loyalty. Another reason to throw out this symbol=loyalty theory is the fact that while Millicent's is hollow and Crabb and Goyle's are filled in (makes sense if Millicent is a "good slyth), but Seamus Finnigan and Justin Fitch-Fletchley's symbols are filled in squares as well. Is it likely that a half-Muggle and a Muggle-born would side with Lord Voldemort, given his hatred of Muggles? I honestly think not. Sorry serena, but I think its back to the drawing board (though Millicent may be good, who knows?) I will say that it does appear the middle symbol indicates birth. A square with and "N" inside seems to indicate being Muggle-born (Hermione and Justin are both known to be Muggle born). A lone star seems to indicate half and half. Seamus is proof (I believe Rowling scratched out the circle around his star), for he admits to being half-Muggle (PS/SS). Finally, a star with a circle around it means pure blood. Crabbe and Goyle both have this symbol, and we can assume they're pure bloods because they hang with Draco and at least their fathers were DE (GoF). To sum up. First column indicates gender. Second indicates parentage. Third indicates house. Back to studying for me. Loving this whole HP for Grown-ups thing, rach From jmmears at comcast.net Sun May 11 21:28:44 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:28:44 -0000 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace & Hogwarts defenses In-Reply-To: <002b01c3175e$4f49b0e0$7105a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57617 Abigail wrote: > > > I've had the sneaking suspicion for a while now that the defenses on > Hogwarts are more > > psychological than physical - everyone knows that the castle is > impregnable, so no one > > tries to get in. Dumbledore's presence probably helps, too, but really, > the castle is > > protected by ancient and outdated spells which no one has bothered to > upgrade or > > update in centuries. Amanda replied: > Oooh! Oooh! Indirect support for "love as a spell component"! > > For those of you who read "Amanda Binns Explains It All"....doesn't this fit > in? Dumbledore's willing sacrifice to be a component of a protective spell > for Hogwarts, as Lily's willing sacrifice may have been a component of a > protective spell for Harry. > > Oooh, this fits. Down to Dumbledore's death being what Snape accomplishes to > win Voldemort's trust again; Snape possibly not really doing it but Harry > believing he did; etc. (Snape feeling responsible for Dumbledore's death, by > the way, would be *TERRIBLY* Bangst-y, now, wouldn't it?) > > *Do* go back and read that post...(47077). ::Looks up:: Did someone say "Bangst-y"? I have to admit that this is beginning to sound quite plausable. The notion of "Lily's-sacrifice-all-by-itself" being enough to protect Harry has never really been a good fit for me. As many people have already pointed out, there must have been other people who died in an attempt to protect a loved one from an AK. The mention of Lily's wand being particularly good for charm work has led most of us to assume that charms were her specialty, so that part works. I like the idea of Snape's involvement in developing this last, final protection for Harry, which works along with the LOLLIPOPS theory in a nice Bangst-y way. Yes, I think you may be on to a winner here. What worked before with Lily's sacrifice, can now work again with Dumbledore sacrificing himself, renewing protection for Harry, and giving Snape some major street-cred with the DEs. I'm wondering about James, though. Would James Potter have been in on this last final protection thing with Lily/Dumbledore/Snape? Would he have gone along with it? Where does James fit in? Jo Serenadust, Bangstmeister From Lynx412 at aol.com Sun May 11 21:30:21 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 17:30:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clue for the "ancient protection?" Message-ID: <20.10fe44f3.2bf01aed@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57618 In a message dated 5/11/03 3:16:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ivanova at idcnet.com writes: > It's interesting that Petunia uses that particular phrase to describe how > disastrous it could be if they left Harry home alone. Maybe part of his > protection is to not be alone outside of the WW. They usually leave him > with Mrs. Figg. Since she's not available, they toss out the names of Aunt > Marge (Vernon's relative) and Yvonne (friend of Petunia). We can speculate > why the Dursleys or Mrs. Figg could protect him, but why would Marge and > Yvonne be considered adequate protection against "finding the house in > ruins?" I found the phrase interesting, as well, on a recent rereading...I'm reading the whole series a few chapters a day to my daughter trying to finish up on June 20...not because of any connection to 'ancient protection', but because of Hagrid's description of having found Harry in the 'ruins of the house'. Just what *was* in that letter DD left them? Also, was Petunia or any of the Dursleys at the site? Not necessarily due to having taken part in the events. They may have been contacted by the Muggle authorities about Harry, especially since they are Harry's only living relatives. I see two reasons for Harry's arrival that night. First, to place him under that 'ancient magic' and second to explain how he survived. Probably the Dursleys claimed that Harry had been in their care the night his parents died and their home was destroyed. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 11 21:53:57 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 16:53:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clue for the "ancient protection?" References: <20030511204142.86388.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003501c31807$d35003e0$8eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57619 > Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: I was rereading the first two chapters in PS/SS last night, when I came> across this passage. > > > "Aunt Petunia looked as though she'd just swallowed a lemon. > "And come back and find the house in ruins?" she snarled." > > It's interesting that Petunia uses that particular phrase to describe how > disastrous it could be if they left Harry home alone. Maybe part of his > protection is to not be alone outside of the WW. > Maria:I've always assumed that Petunia referred to the Potters' house in Godric's Hollow that was left in ruins after Voldemort tried to AK Harry. Basically, it fits to description of "blowing up the house." But as a different explanation, we could speculate that Harry is safe in Privet Drive No. 4 only when the Dursleys are there with him. Maria > Yeah, she was alluding to the state of the Potters' house, I agree. I was just thinking she might think that if Harry were left alone while they went to the zoo, they might come home to find the same thing done to their house. Meaning that someone would come to take out Harry if he were alone. Another line I came across in Chapter 3 jumped at me just now. Harry has just had his first letter intercepted, and Vernon and Petunia are in the kitchen alone discussing it. Harry and Dudley are listening at the door. At the end of the recorded conversation, Vernon says, "I'm not having one in the house, Petunia! Didn't we swear when we took him in we'd stamp out that *dangerous* nonsense?" (US hardcover p. 36, emphasis mine) It seems the Dursleys, or at least Vernon, believes that the reason James and Lily were killed was because they were meddling where they shouldn't have. I can see Petunia thinking Lily didn't belong in the WW, considered her a freak, and was majorly opposed to Lily wedding a wizard. When they found out what had happened to Lily, Petunia's beliefs were confirmed. In her mind, if Lily had just not been involved with that witch stuff, this powerful wizard wouldn't have come to kill her and blow up the house. One of the things I suspect DD mentioned in that letter was that Voldemort wanted Harry in some way (not 100% positive he was originally planning to kill Harry, although he ultimately decided to do so), and the Dursleys are now afraid that if Harry gets involved in the WW world in any way, shape, or form, that wizard will come back for him and the Dursleys, too. What happens when the WW tries to contact Harry? First they try to treat Harry nicely, probably figuring that if he's treated nice, they will be left alone. When the letters keep coming, Vernon becomes increasingly desparate, boarding up everything in sight and ultimately fleeing. Yes, he did read the letter, which would let him know it's simply people trying to get Harry to enter the WW, just like Lily once received, but I also think Vernon does become afraid for his family. Ok, I think I've just degenerated into rambling, so I'm going to stop. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Sun May 11 23:33:16 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 16:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: <002901c317f1$92fe91a0$8eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030511233316.60893.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57620 --- Kelly wrote: > I was rereading the first two chapters in PS/SS > last night, when I came > across this passage. > > The Dursleys are discussing what to do with > Harry when Mrs. Figg calls to > say she can't take Harry because she broke her > leg. > "You could just leave me here," Harry put in > hopefully (snip what Harry > could do alone). > Aunt Petunia looked as though she'd just > swallowed a lemon. > "And come back and find the house in ruins?" > she snarled. > "I won't blow up the house," said Harry, but > they weren't listening. (US > hardcover p. 23) Lynn: Wow, Kelly, that opens up some new thoughts. When taken out like that, it no longer reads as Aunt Petunia being nasty. It sounds as if she's well aware that the Dursleys are Harry's protection and without them there, Harry is toast. Perhaps the reason she dismisses the two suggestions is because they wouldn't work, there would be no protection for those people as there would be at Mrs. Figg's. Or, perhaps the protection extends to whomever the Dursleys place Harry for care. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From hp at plum.cream.org Sun May 11 23:44:32 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:44:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR the non-conformist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030512003208.00971a80@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57621 At 14:31 11/05/03 , bluetad2001 wrote: >The best I can offer is a version of something I wrote elsewhere in >response to an accusation that her books were 'predictable' in their >treatment of the good/evil theme (once I'd got up off the floor). > >Let's see now. Pre Book 1 - Good has already, by some means that is >not entirely understood, deprived evil of its power and forced it >into exile. Book 1 - Good prevents resurgent evil getting what it >wants simply by acting in accordance with its own, good, nature. Book >2 - Good actively seeks out and defeats the servant of evil by virtue >of loyalty to a higher good and by the use of deadly force! Book 3 - >Good discerns the difference between the followers of good and the >followers of evil and liberates the former while showing mercy to the >weak. Book 4 - Good and evil meet head on - the result being broadly >speaking a draw, with the lingering threat of a re-match with >reinforcements. > >Now I don't call all of that 'predictable'. I don't really have time to reply to this (or the original message) in detail, but I can't say that I agree with you that JKR's plots are particularly original, or indeed that they exemplify any kind of "non-conformism". The four "plot summaries" you present are absolutely nothing new, and countless examples could be presented of other books with the same kind of plots. Certainly it's the way most spy novel plots run. Although I've not read the books, the four movies to date of Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan books (which I understand are fairly faithful plot-wise to the books) could be summarised along those lines. "Analysis of the similarities is an exercise left to the reader". :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who can't stand Clancy's writing style From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 11 23:51:23 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 23:51:23 -0000 Subject: JKR the non-conformist In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030512003208.00971a80@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57622 Gulplum: > > I don't really have time to reply to this (or the original message) in > detail, but I can't say that I agree with you that JKR's plots are > particularly original, or indeed that they exemplify any kind of > "non-conformism". > > The four "plot summaries" you present are absolutely nothing new, and > countless examples could be presented of other books with the same kind of > plots. Certainly it's the way most spy novel plots run. Although I've not > read the books, the four movies to date of Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan books > (which I understand are fairly faithful plot-wise to the books) could be > summarised along those lines. > > "Analysis of the similarities is an exercise left to the reader". :- Now me: I think the overall themes in the books are not original. Certainly, the world she's created is fresh and new, and the twists in each book are hard to see coming -- at least, they were for me -- but the actual treatment of good and evil do not seem all that original. We're not going to know exactly what the treatment of good and evil will be until the series is completed. Now, if at the end of book 7, Voldemort has conquered Britain, Dumbledore is dead, Harry is Dementorized, Ron is a Death Eater and Hermione has forgotten something about Hogwarts: A History, then OK, let's call it something fresh. Darrin -- Actually, Gul, Clancy HATED the movies about his books. I think he removed his name from one of them out of disgust. -- Just Watched Hunt For Red October. How cool a Moody would Sean Connery be? From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon May 12 00:18:26 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:18:26 -0000 Subject: Professor Binns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57623 Janet Anderson wrote: > what is the > unfinished business that keeps him here (clearly it isn't teaching ...)? Ah, I think it *is* the teaching that is Binns' (and JKR's) unfinished business. The history of the WW is plainly chock full of unfinished business, or, rather, of stories not yet told and truths not yet uncovered. It is one of the most prominent features of the series that each book deals with a different period of the past and how it affects the present: for COS, Riddle's early days; for POA, the marauder era; for GOF, the immediate post-Voldemort time. PS sets the scene by locating the series' central mystery at the point when Harry was a little over a year old. Binns is useless for relating this information, although it is his job. The other characters have to stumble through to it themselves, and it is little surprise that, compared to the strong authorial voice, the series' official internal storyteller is reduced to ghostly status. David From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon May 12 00:23:53 2003 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:23:53 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Impression That I Get Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57624 THE IMPRESSION THAT I GET A filk to the song of the same name by the Mighty Mighty Bosstones, on their album Let's Face It SCENE: OotP?The Gryffindor Quidditch side is holding a team meeting to elect their new captain. ANGELINA: Ollie Wood led us to victory Way back in our fifth year And we haven't had a captain since he left So, any volunteers? No? Well KATIE: I'll never be Oliver Wood He was a Quidditch maniac! Which makes me wonder if I should It makes me not want to be Captain like Oliver Wood I'm prepared to make a bet That Angelina, you'd be good! That's the impression that I get ANGELINA: He always had the odds stacked up so high Almost like he was possessed And he would always tell us, `It's do or die!' So who will put us to the test? Oh, well ALICIA: I'll never be Oliver Wood He was a Quidditch maniac! Which makes me wonder if I could Be a fanatic like our Captain, that Oliver Wood I'm prepared to make a bet That Angelina, you'd be good! That's the impression that I get ANGELINA: I'm not a coward, I've just never been captain I'd like to think that if I was I'd do well But Wood's obsessive love for Quidditch made him go insane I'd do okay, but I'm afraid I'd go insane myself FRED & GEORGE: We'll never be Oliver Wood Because you know that guy was mad! Whereas we're misunderstood! We hope we never will be Crazy like Oliver Wood! And we're glad we're not mad yet Because we're sure it isn't good! That's the impression that we get (Angelina pauses and thinks for a moment) ANGELINA: Guess I'll be Captain like Ollie Wood But you know something we have? An open slot for whoever would Defend and save the Quaffle Harry: Who will be Keeper like Ollie Wood? 'Cause I know someone who's good I think he's the perfect gent That's the impression that I get Cheers! -stickbook From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon May 12 00:38:38 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:38:38 -0000 Subject: Author avatars Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57625 This Binns thread reminds me of something. At times arguments (usually in the shipping arena) are based on the notion of the author avatar, and the idea that if we can locate JKR's own identity with a character (usually taken as Hermione) then we can conjecture JKR's own wishes and project them onto the character to guess at future events in (or after) the series. While I doubt the validity of this form of reasoning, I also think it is largely mistaken to consider Hermione as JKR's avatar in the books. I understand JKR to have said that she has based Hermione to some extent on her own teenage self: in other words, she has looked back to the person she was and used that as a quarry for characterisation. I think that's quite different from using characters as vehicles for aspects of her *current* self. I think it is true that Hermione's social concerns reflect something of herself that JKR puts into the books. That, to me, though, is relatively minor both in Hermione's character and JKR's preoccupations. I believe Dumbledore is a fairly obvious representative of JKR's own thinking: he acts as the repository of her own ethics, so his voice carries especial authority. When he speaks, much (though not all) of the time, his voice carries the weight of ultimate truth because the author's own mind comes through. I think that Peeves is also a in some measure a self-image of JKR put into the books: he is her sense of humour untrammelled by moral or social convention. He does the things in her world that she would like to do, IMO, if she weren't constrained by the needs of her themes and plot development. I can't prove any of this, of course, and one can say that *all* the characters come out of her head, but IMO these two she identifies with in different ways, as well as to a lesser extent Hermione. Binns is relevant because of his status as an anti-avatar, or failed avatar: someone formally identified with JKR's role as relater of WW history, whom she puts at a distance from herself as boring, ghostly, and irrelevant (though I suppose you could say that JKR is the unseen ghost at every Hogwarts meal?). Any other opinions out there as to whom JKR identifies with? David From hp at plum.cream.org Mon May 12 00:48:40 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 01:48:40 +0100 Subject: Weather (JKR the non-conformist) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030512011531.0096f780@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57626 I don't really have much to say on the original topic, as in some ways I don't actually agree with its thesis. However, I'd like to add one thought... The Admiring Skeptic wrote: >Narratives have been using the weather as mood-setter forever. JKR >reverse-parodies this in the above quote, when she writes (again approx.), >"there was nothing in the gray, dreary skies to cause anyone to suspect >that strange and unusual things were about to happen." All through the >series, she persistently paints weather portraits that have nothing >whatsoever to do with the mood, though they often help the plot. Whilst in some ways I disagree with you (usually, on dreary days, Harry feels down in the dumps) I have an observation on weather in the HP books which I don't think I've ever seen mentioned before and could (I hope, but I doubt it!) :-) be entirely novel. No conclusions, just an observation. Note the journeys to/arrival at Hogwarts (references to UK editions): PS/SS: the train sped past "fields full of cows and sheep" (p. 76); Hogwarts is seen "under a deep-purple sky" and the lake was "smooth as glass" (p. 83). (I draw the implication that it was a fine day if the animals were out and there was a bright sunset). CoS: "... the sky a bright, endless blue under the blinding white sun..." (p. 57; nevertheless, the boys drive the car through various clouds, so JKR isn't being entirely consistent here); Harry notices the "smooth, black, glassy" lake (p. 58) PoA: "the clouds overhead thickened" (p. 62), "... just as it started to rain..." (p. 63), "the rain thickened..." (p. 64), "it was freezing on the tiny platform; rain was driving down in icy sheets" (p. 68) GoF: "The thick rain splattering the windows made it very difficult to see out of them" (p. 146-147), "the rain became heavier and heavier..." (p. 148), "As the train doors opened, there was a rumble of thunder overhead", "... it was as though buckets of ice-cold water were being emptied repeatedly over their heads" (p. 151), "...fast becoming a gale", "lighting flashed across the sky..." (p. 152), "Hagrid was fighting his way across the lake" (p. 155). As I said above, no conclusions, just a series of observations... :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who will be playing close attention to weather conditions during the journey to Hogwarts in OoP. From debmclain at yahoo.com Mon May 12 01:01:46 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 01:01:46 -0000 Subject: Weather (JKR the non-conformist) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030512011531.0096f780@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57627 GulPlum wrote: >I have an observation on weather in the HP books > which I don't think I've ever seen mentioned before and could (I hope, but > I doubt it!) :-) be entirely novel. No conclusions, just an observation. > > Note the journeys to/arrival at Hogwarts (references to UK editions): > > PS/SS: the train sped past "fields full of cows and sheep" (p. 76); > Hogwarts is seen "under a deep-purple sky" and the lake was "smooth as > glass" (p. 83). (I draw the implication that it was a fine day if the > animals were out and there was a bright sunset). > > CoS: "... the sky a bright, endless blue under the blinding white sun..." > (p. 57; nevertheless, the boys drive the car through various clouds, so JKR > isn't being entirely consistent here); Harry notices the "smooth, black, > glassy" lake (p. 58) > > PoA: "the clouds overhead thickened" (p. 62), "... just as it started to > rain..." (p. 63), "the rain thickened..." (p. 64), "it was freezing on the > tiny platform; rain was driving down in icy sheets" (p. 68) > > GoF: "The thick rain splattering the windows made it very difficult to see > out of them" (p. 146-147), "the rain became heavier and heavier..." (p. > 148), "As the train doors opened, there was a rumble of thunder overhead", > "... it was as though buckets of ice-cold water were being emptied > repeatedly over their heads" (p. 151), "...fast becoming a gale", "lighting > flashed across the sky..." (p. 152), "Hagrid was fighting his way across > the lake" (p. 155). > > As I said above, no conclusions, just a series of observations... :- ) > > -- > GulPlum AKA Richard, who will be playing close attention to weather > conditions during the journey to Hogwarts in OoP. Me: GulPlum - I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed before. Even I have noticed this, and that's pretty sad. I'm pretty sure it was also mentioned in "Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter" by Galadriel Waters. An absolute excellent book, by the way. Goes over all 4 books chapter by chapter, almost line by line. I, myself, will be surprised if it's sunny the day Harry takes the train. I'm expecting a thunderstorm. -Debbie From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon May 12 01:31:36 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 01:31:36 -0000 Subject: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace & Hogwarts defenses & OoP Prefix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57628 Bangstmeister Jo perked up: > Did someone say "Bangst-y"? Yeah. We gotta get you a ship, Jo. Definitely. Maybe a destroyer with a huge hole in it. So you as the captain can be consumed by angst as you bail water out of it. ;-) >What worked before with Lily's sacrifice, can now > work again with Dumbledore sacrificing himself, renewing >protection for Harry, and giving Snape some major street-cred with >the DEs. Ugh. Are we onto a new theory here? A theory that everyone in Harry's life will eventually have to make a sacrifice for him? Hagrid? Dumbledore? Sirius? Lupin? Ron? Hermione? All of them will go out taking a bullet for Harry. It's plausible, I guess. And Bangy. And Bangsty. But you know what that means, don't you? After all of these people have sacrificed themselves for Harry, he'll have to sacrifice himself saving the wizarding world. In Book 7. Otherwise, all of those other hideous deaths of all of Harry's friends will have no meaning. Oh, this is gonna get bloody, huh? ;-) And on a different subject . . . Becky wondered: >But in that case, could you put in the subject OOP >CH.1? Or OOP CH2., to let people know it contains information on >the book but only up to the first or second (or whatever number) >chapter? Hey, sure. Why not? I think the more descriptive the subject header, the better. So I think "OOP: Ch. 2 -- Hagrid" is fine. I'd have trouble with "OOP: Ch. 2 -- Hagrid Has All The Water Sucked >From His Body By The Giant Squid," though. ;-) Cindy -- who finally pre-ordered her copy of OoP but who hasn't figured out how to order a copy of the British version From hp at plum.cream.org Mon May 12 02:04:24 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 03:04:24 +0100 Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: <19a.14bc87b6.2bef3d4d@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030512024243.0096a250@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57629 Jodel wrote, in reply to my previous comments: >I think that the Dueling Club incident was another one of Dumbledore's >set-ups. Very much like getting Harry into the same room as the Mirror of >Erised in PS/SS. I still say that Dumbledore gave Harry the cloak and had >Snape and Filtch "herd" Harry in the right direction (with Mrs. Norris, who >could track him by scent's help) in order to acomplish that maneuver before >the end of the Christmas hols. The Dueling Club nonsense reads very much the >same way. I'll admit that I've thought of that before. However, I simply don't buy it, for the same reason that I don't buy MAGIC DISHWASHER. Throughout the books, "evil" is portrayed as manipulative and spiteful. At the very beginning of the first book, McGonagall describes Dumbledore as "noble". This is a guy who "prefers truth to lies" and makes a big deal of being worried that Snape, a grown and fully-qualified wizard, is "ready" for his task at the end of GoF. I simply don't see showing Harry up in front of the whole school, making everyone afraid of him and spreading wild panic, as the actions of a "noble" mind. I agree that Dumbledore could have wanted to try his a theory that perhaps Harry picked up Parseltongue from Voldemort. But why do it in front of the whole school? Why not "accidently" let a snake loose during one of their private conversations, or perhaps during a COMC, DADA or other class? Besides, far too much time goes past from the first petrification until the Duelling Club for Dumbledore suddenly to realise that Harry's abilities need to be brought to light *at that point*. And if manipulating Harry into revealing his Parseltongue was Snape's doing (which, again, I agree would be entirely in character for him), WHY does he react with nothing more than a "shrewd and calculating" look? Why not make a big deal out of it, and make sure that Harry knows he's in trouble? He makes a big deal out of every other occasion Harry does something he considers "wrong", so why not this time? Quite simply, it doesn't make sense. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, off to bed From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon May 12 00:26:55 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:26:55 -0000 Subject: FILK: Respect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57630 They scoffed at Columbus! They derided Copernicus! They laughed at Abbott and Costello! (Well, perhaps the last was deserved.) But the filking team for the new millennium are no one-hit wonders! After painstaking research, much skull sweat and a soupcon of inspiration, the team of Amy Z. and Haggridd have succeeded in providing one and all with another triumph of filking. For your pleasure, we give you a filk-- of the same title-- of the Aretha Franklin song "Respect". This filk is dedicated to Gail Bohacek SCENE: When they write the definitive history of the House-Elf Liberation Front and its 1994 revolution, the credit for firing the first shot-- as did the cruiser *Aurora* to signal the advance on the Winter Palace-- will be given to Dobby the Great, who inspired one and all by his never-ending struggle for simple Elvish decency and... Respect DOBBY: (ooh) Dobby wants (ooh) What he has not. (ooh) Wizards pays (ooh) Dobby diddly-squat! (ooh) All I is askin' (ooh) Is for a little career outside the home. (just a little one) A stipend (just a little one) Outside the home, (just a little one) Master. (just a little one) I ain't gonna do only what you permit Ain't gonna do no more (oo) 'Cause Dobby has quit. (oo) All I is askin' (oo) Is for a little career outside the home (just a little one) Master (just a little one) outside the home, (just a little one) Yeah. (just a little one) Dobby doesn't think it is at all funny. All I asks is the right to earn money, And make my "daily profits" Outside the home. (just a, just a, just a, just a) Nice Master, (just a, just a, just a, just a) I wants to roam, (just a little bit) Yeah. (just a little bit) Ooo, I wants clothes; Nothin' that's shoddy. And for what? To cover my body. All I want you to do for me Is give clothes to wear outside the home. (re, re, re ,re) Nice master. (re, re, re ,re) And don't whip Dobby (respect, just a little bit) When he get home, now. (just a little bit) R-E-S-P-E-C-T House-elves does not work for free! R-E-S-P-E-C-T I has joined the bourgeoi- -Sie! (sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me) Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me) Dobby wants clothes, (sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me) Not towels. (just a little one) Dobby wants payin'. (just a little bit) Wants to try some (just a little bit) Disobeyin'. (just a little bit) I is wantin' a vacation. (just a little one) Dobby's gone strayin' (just a little bit) (re, re, re, re) 'spect Outside the home. (re, re, re ,re) I just might walk out (respect, just a little bit) And learn how to knit. (just a little bit) I gots to have it. (just a little bit) Dobby wants payin'. (just a little bit) -Amy Z. & Haggridd From jmmears at comcast.net Mon May 12 02:41:39 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 02:41:39 -0000 Subject: Author avatars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > This Binns thread reminds me of something. > > At times arguments (usually in the shipping arena) are based on the > notion of the author avatar, and the idea that if we can locate > JKR's own identity with a character (usually taken as Hermione) then > we can conjecture JKR's own wishes and project them onto the > character to guess at future events in (or after) the series. > > While I doubt the validity of this form of reasoning, I also think > it is largely mistaken to consider Hermione as JKR's avatar in the > books. > > I understand JKR to have said that she has based Hermione to some > extent on her own teenage self: in other words, she has looked back > to the person she was and used that as a quarry for > characterisation. I think that's quite different from using > characters as vehicles for aspects of her *current* self. > > I think it is true that Hermione's social concerns reflect something > of herself that JKR puts into the books. That, to me, though, is > relatively minor both in Hermione's character and JKR's > preoccupations. > Any other opinions out there as to whom JKR identifies with? Actually, I've always thought that Ron's reaction to his family's poverty reflects JKR's own feelings about the period of time when she was very poor. In her interview in The Guardian, July 8, 2000 http://books.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4037903,00.html she talks about how devistated she was when she saw how much another child had in terms of material possesions in comparison to her daughter. I agree with you that Hermione, while sharing many of JKR's own foibles at the same age, is not JKR's atavar (or even her "Mary Sue" to the fanfic afficionados). My impression is that her own attitudes and feelings are reflected in Harry, as well as many of the other characters. Good post, David! Jo Serenadust From horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com Mon May 12 00:27:23 2003 From: horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:27:23 -0000 Subject: We Live Racisim Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57632 Even JK herself says that one of they issues that is very important that they deal with is the racisim about having "pure blood." (She says this in an interview on the CoS Movie DVD Special Extras) She says this is something we experience in real life, and there will always be people who are racist, and we can't stop them. I agree, as nobody can change what the Malfoys think or do, but we know they are wrong. ~Ali* ~Screwing up... with STYLE!~ From jgates at eddinc.net Mon May 12 00:50:34 2003 From: jgates at eddinc.net (Jean Gates) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:50:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OotP not to be in paperback??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004601c31820$82079160$55d86fd8@jgatescomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 57633 Hello everyone! I just wanted to make a quick comment about the paperback edition for OOTP. I contacted Scholastic approximately a month ago and asked if they knew when the paperback edition would be available and they said they didn't know yet, but it took "several years" for the GOF to come out in paperback. So if you live in the US you will be waiting quite awhile before you can buy it. Sorry about that! Jean -----Original Message----- From: Coble, Katherine [mailto:katherine.coble at crgibson.com] Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 4:28 PM To: 'HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: OotP not to be in paperback??? > ---------- > From: mmemalkin > Reply To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 9, 2003 2:32 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OotP not to be in paperback??? > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katy Cartee" > wrote: > > Are you seriously going to wait months to read OoTP just because it > first comes out in hardback?? They don't release hardbacks and > paperbacks simultaneously. If so, you'll probably want to leave this > list in the meantime...because we'll be discussing the hell out of it. > > > > ~Katy~ > > >Diane replies: >Of course I'm not going to wait to READ it!!! :-D I >just never BUY >hardbacks (too bulky & expensive). I'll borrow from a friend or the > library, like I did for GoF. > If it's any consolation, the prices out there on this particular hardback are ridiculously low. If, like me, you prefer to re-re-re-re-read these books, it's a good deal. I, too, generally prefer paperbacks for price and storage. However there are certain books that I feel strongly enough about to have around in Hardback. Mycropht Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Mon May 12 02:13:11 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 02:13:11 -0000 Subject: Moody Vs. Wormtail and Crouch = Freedom for Sirius? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57634 On page 689 of the American version of GOF, Dumbledore is questioning Crouch with the help of Snape's Veritaserum: "You needed Moody." said Dumbledore. His blue eyes were blazing, though his voice remained calm. "Wormtail and I did it. We had prepared the Polyjuice Potion beforehand. We journeyed to his house. Moody put up a struggle. There was a commotion. We managed to subdue him just in time..." Wormtail and Crouch bust into Moody's house and Moody fights. Sure, he was taken off guard, but from what Crouch said we can reasonably conclude that he saw Peter Pettigrew. Moody is connected enough to recognize Pettigrew, and in any statement he would give, he would certainly mention Peter as one of his assailants. I'm thinking this could be the first step towards freedom for Sirius. Now granted, Fudge has his head in the sand and is continuing to burrow, so I don't think Sirius will be cleared until Fudge is canned, especially considering Moody's reputation as a paranoid eccentric. But hey, it's a start. Joe From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon May 12 05:06:31 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 05:06:31 -0000 Subject: Feed the Twins (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57635 Feed the Twins To the tune of Feed the Birds, from Mary Poppins Dedicated to Maria THE SCENE: Hogwarts Kitchen. A CHORUS OF HOUSE-ELVES sing of two frequent visitors. CHORUS Early one year to the Hogwarts ovens The clever young Weasley twins hacked In their own docile way to the house-elves they wend, "Come, fill our tummies with snacks. Come feed the Weasley twins, don't let them starve And you'll be glad if you do. Us young ones are famished, Our cupboards are stark; All it takes is cream cakes from you." Feed the twins, cream cakes and pies Cream cakes, cream cakes, cream cakes and pies. "Feed the twins," that's what elves say Low overhead lets us serve buffets All around Hogwarts Castle young George and young Frederick Sneak `round as they prowl for grub And now that they've found us, we see they are smiling As they chew the cud at elf pubs Hark, their words are plaintive indeed, Listen, listen, give in to their greed: "Feed the twins, cream cakes and pies Cream cakes, cream cakes, cream cakes and pies." - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 12 05:12:49 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:12:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion References: <4.2.0.58.20030512024243.0096a250@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <000901c31845$22a0cf00$97ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57636 GulPlum aka Richard wrote: > (snip a lot of Dumbledore speculation) > And if manipulating Harry into revealing his Parseltongue was Snape's doing > (which, again, I agree would be entirely in character for him), WHY does he > react with nothing more than a "shrewd and calculating" look? Why not make > a big deal out of it, and make sure that Harry knows he's in trouble? He > makes a big deal out of every other occasion Harry does something he > considers "wrong", so why not this time? First of all, I really don't think Dumbledore set this scene up at all. At most, he might have wanted to make sure someone who did have a clue on how to duel was present so Lockhart didn't hurt any of the students through his incompetence. But I wouldn't even be sure that was his idea. Why does Snape only respond with the look instead of making a big deal? Being a Parselmouth is a little different than being a celebrity for something he doesn't remember doing or any of the other little things he has done. Everyone in the school is already making a big deal out of it. I think with this little thing Snape didn't need to make a deal about it himself because everyone else would do it for him. Plus this ability does have ties to Voldemort. Snape might have suspected, or maybe even Dumbledore was the one who suspected and Snape himself was doubtful, but either way, he was not positive Harry had this ability. I can't prove this, but I've always had a feeling Harry's Parseltongue ability is connected somehow to Trelawney's first prophecy, and Snape is one of the few who knows the details of this prophecy. Either way, for some reason it seems to me it would be strange for Snape to make a big deal out of this, although it is in character for him to do so. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon May 12 05:17:00 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 01:17:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion Message-ID: <1a0.14bfe922.2bf0884c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57637 In a message dated 5/12/2003 12:14:17 AM Central Standard Time, ivanova at idcnet.com writes: > First of all, I really don't think Dumbledore set this scene up at all. At > most, he might have wanted to make sure someone who did have a clue on how > to duel was present so Lockhart didn't hurt any of the students through his > incompetence. But I wouldn't even be sure that was his idea. > > But wouldn't Professor Flitwick be a more reasonable choice. He was a dueling champion in his youth. And the Serpensortia spell was Snape's idea . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 12 05:20:21 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:20:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clue for the "ancient protection?" References: <20030511233316.60893.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501c31846$2feb8f50$97ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57638 > > --- Kelly wrote: > > I was rereading the first two chapters in PS/SS > > last night, when I came > > across this passage. > > > > The Dursleys are discussing what to do with > > Harry when Mrs. Figg calls to > > say she can't take Harry because she broke her > > leg. > > "You could just leave me here," Harry put in > > hopefully (snip what Harry > > could do alone). > > Aunt Petunia looked as though she'd just > > swallowed a lemon. > > "And come back and find the house in ruins?" > > she snarled. > > "I won't blow up the house," said Harry, but > > they weren't listening. (US > > hardcover p. 23) > > > Lynn: > > Wow, Kelly, that opens up some new thoughts. > When taken out like that, it no longer reads as > Aunt Petunia being nasty. It sounds as if she's > well aware that the Dursleys are Harry's > protection and without them there, Harry is > toast. > > Perhaps the reason she dismisses the two > suggestions is because they wouldn't work, there > would be no protection for those people as there > would be at Mrs. Figg's. Or, perhaps the > protection extends to whomever the Dursleys place > Harry for care. I did wonder about how well Harry would've been protected had he been being watched by Marge or Yvonne. If Petunia knew they would be incapable of protecting him, I find it interesting that she would not just say so to Vernon. If she isn't saying so to Vernon, then there is at least one thing she is keeping from him. I'd love to know what else she knows but hasn't told anyone, even her husband. Because for some reason, I find it hard to believe that the protection would extend so far as to one of Petunia's Muggle friends, even if Petunia did entrust Harry to her care. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From catlady at wicca.net Mon May 12 05:35:08 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 05:35:08 -0000 Subject: Malkin/meanSnape/Darrin Slytherins/Smartest atHogwarts/Alliteration/Rosmerta Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57639 I'm still on Tuesday morning's messages (500-odd posts behind being caught up) but it's already after my bedtime, so I want to post a few replies even if someone has already said the same things in the 500-plus that I haven't read yet. Gishstar1 wrote: << Anyone heard of a scholar in Greek Mythology by the name of Professor Irad Malkin? anyone? .. anyone? (Bueler... bueler.. ) *laughs at stupid joke*... WELL, this is just a little theory. But I did some research on the name Malkin (because I'm sad and I have that sort of time on my hands) and Malkin is slang for a 'poorly- dressed woman', or 'dust rags' BUT Madam Malkin (the name) can also mean cat or rabbit. >> I don't know of Irad Malkin, but Malkin is an old traditional nickname for Molly, which is an old traditional nickname for Mary, and Grimalkin (Grey Malkin) is an old traditional name for a cat who is a witch's familiar, and a ton of words (including 'pussy' and 'bunny') have meant 'cat' at one time and 'rabbit' at another. I never heard before of Malkin being slang for a badly dressed woman, but that would be a typical JKR piece of character naming. << Going back to what I said about also meaning cat or rabbit. I was thinking about Mrs. Figg and how she always had Harry look through her pictures of all her cats. I personally think that those aren't just cats and those are in fact animagus. Good or Evil I'm not sure. and the reason for this is because she would want Harry to be able to easily recognize them if he were ever to see those cats/people >> The problem with that is that so many cats look so similar that I have never had any trouble finding commercial photos of cats who look EXACTLY like my Nan, my Obi, my Sasha, my Taliesin, my Cinnamon .... I even saw a picture in the Foster & Smith catalog one time that looked like my Pixy! (she's a tiny pastel tortoiseshell with a pointy face, rather unusual combination) Melclaros wrote: << These kids are woefully behind and there really is NO EXCUSE for that. No, it's not Lupin's fault. But neither is it Snape's, he knew about Quirrel and was on to Lockhart from day ONE. (snip) "It is time somebody took this class in hand" >> It isn't Lupin's fault nor Snape's, but it isn't the students' fault either, and Snape sounded like he was blaming *them* and recommending punishment (from Snape, "take this class in hand" sounds like "punish this class") of *them*. That's not unprofessional -- it is, in fact, typical adult behavior to lower ranking folks (children, subordinates), but it is NOT NICE. << the Slytherin's boggart lesson. That would have been good to see. >> I wrote a fanfic describing Lupin's Boggart class with the Slytherin, and it has gotten some favorable comments. http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Catlady/ Darrin wrote: << Can you imagine Draco, or any Slytherin student we've met so far, saying, "I will open myself up for a giant stone chess piece to attack and maybe kill me so you can go forward" like Ron did? >> Crabbe and Goyle aren't smart enough to think of it, but either of them would do it for Draco if asked. However, as some Draco said in some fanfic: "I don't know if that means they're loyal or just thick." My vision of Millicent Bulstrode also would do it, but partly because she thinks she's too tough to be killed. Darrin wrote: << It was old Salazar who left behind a giant, Muggle-killing snake because he didn't want anyone but purebloods attending school. >> You are jumping to conclusion about what old Salazar intended! He did leave the school because of a conflict with Godric that started with Salazar's desire to limit admission to students who had been raised in the wizarding world; according to Binns, Salazar's reason was fear of Muggle attacks, not any belief that Muggle-borns are inferior. He did leave the basilisk behind in his Chamber of Secrets, but we have only the psychotic TMR's word that his reason for leaving the basilisk was to kill "Mudbloods". He may well have intended the Basilisk to be used as defense against any army that attacked the school, or that the Basilisk remain in the Chamber to guard whatever OTHER secrets he had hidden there. Melclaros said: << I don't think it ever said, "James Potter and Sirius Black were the smartest kids in school". >> It says so in PoA, but Lupin said it and he might be prejudiced ... "Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong" ... I've always figured that he left out that he was just as clever as James and Sirius because of modesty, and that so was Lily because of residual sexism, and that so was Snape because of hating him. Stevie wrote: << Probably an old one this but I noticed that the great wizards fore and surnames began with the same letters. Salazar Slytherin, Godric Gryffindor etc. Is there a meaning to this? Snape and McGonagall also have same. Probably nothing but does anyone have any ideas about this? >> It probably means only that the wizarding folk like alliteration, or maybe only that JKR likes alliteration. It doesn't seem to be associated with greatness, as Pansy Parkinson and Parvati Patil have not shown any hints of future greatness, and Albus Dumbledore doesn't alliterate. Joe cb4chief wrote: << But I got the distinct interpretation that Madam Rosmerta was considered cute in the WW. >> The narratorial voice called her 'a curvy sort of woman with a pretty face." << From what I recall, she was just a tad older than Sirius/Lily/James. >> I got the impression that she was already the adult at the Three Broomsticks when she interacted with James, Sirius, etc, so she must have been a minimum of seven years older than them ... I think even older than that, but with Long Wizarding Lifespan she still LOOKS young. << Besides, she's a waitress. *wink wink* >> I believe *not* just a waitress. I believe she *owns* The Three Broomsticks. For her to be a successful businesswoman, as well as networking central, as well as pretty, is a reason why politicians would know her, therefore why Fudge in PoA is chatting with her like an old friend. From oppen at mycns.net Sun May 11 19:41:48 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:41:48 -0500 Subject: Charlie Weasley, Professor of COMC? Message-ID: <008f01c3184a$1da672c0$f6570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 57640 You know, if Hagrid does end up biting the dust in OoP, there'll be an opening at Hogwarts for a Care of Magical Creatures professor, and Charlie Weasley might just get the job. I don't know whether teaching at Hogwarts is considered a Step Up or a Step Down, but particularly with V'mort back, once Hagrid's gone the Weasleys might very well want one of their number who's a fully trained wizard on deck at H'warts to keep an eye on Ron and Ginny (and, of course, Harry). If poor Ron thought things were rough when his older brother was Head Boy, imagine having to call his older brother "Professor Weasley!" *snicker* From LeiaOS at aol.com Mon May 12 05:22:01 2003 From: LeiaOS at aol.com (LeiaOS at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 01:22:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody Vs. Wormtail and Crouch = Freedom for Sirius? Message-ID: <51.2f1353ba.2bf08979@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57641 In a message dated 5/11/2003 9:50:24 PM Central Standard Time, guardianapcelt at yahoo.com writes: > Moody is connected enough to recognize Pettigrew, and in any > statement he would give, he would certainly mention Peter as one of > his assailants. I'm thinking this could be the first step towards > freedom for Sirius. Now granted, Fudge has his head in the sand and > is continuing to burrow, so I don't think Sirius will be cleared > until Fudge is canned, especially considering Moody's reputation as a > paranoid eccentric. But hey, it's a start. That's a really good point. And it certainly brings the score up a bit (whereas before Black only had on his side Potter and co. and Dumbledore, and while Dumbledore may be a fairly strong influence, Harry is still a young boy). The fact that Moody could testify to Peter being alive, and being in league with Crouch would be a good sign for Black I'd think. Of course, Moody's reputation might be a detriment. And, I think you're right that as long as Fudge is in the picture, and continues on keeping his head in the sand, Black doesn't want to just step up and identify himself. Still, with the Rita wildcard knowing that Black is alive and well, it's nice to know they've got Moody who knows the truth about Peter Pettigrew if it should come to that. ~Sabrina~ 'I say to you all, once again- in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.' ~Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon May 12 06:49:59 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 06:49:59 -0000 Subject: File - ADMIN OoP Spoiler.txt In-Reply-To: <20030511175605.62435.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > Question: It is possible while reading the book something comes up in let's say the 1st or 2nd chapter that you might want to comment on or speculate on. (But you haven't gone beyond that point yet) Probably won't happen as we'll be too busy reading the book! But in that case, could you put in the subject OOP CH.1? Or OOP CH2., to let people know it contains information on the book but only up to the first or second (or whatever number) chapter? That way people who are reading the book will know they can safely read the spoiler as they've passed that point while others can avoid the post entirely. Huggs Becky > > Hi, Becky Putting my Official List Administration List Elf Tea Cosy on my head ... That would be fine *providing* all the subject line says is OOP Chapter 2 (or whatever). The problem with providing any more information than that is that (say) OOP: Chapter 4 Voldemort would be a spoiler - it gives away spoiler information in the header. Someone who read it would quite reasonably guess that Voldemort turns up in Chapter 4. Similarly, 'OOP: Quidditch' gives nothing away (it could well be a post asking why there's no Quidditch at Hogwarts *again*). But 'OOP: Chapter 11 Quidditch' tells you that yes, there is Quidditch and it's in Chapter 11 ... This has already happened with some spoiler information that's been released. While the *information* was vague, the exact chapter number was released. So I now know to pay attention to Chapter [number removed as a spoiler]. ;-) So - as vague as possible. 'OOP: Chapter 11' is fine. 'OOP: Sirius Black' is fine. 'OOP: Chapter 11 Sirius Black' will get all the Sirius Apologists out there mumbling "I must not skip pages ... I must not skip pages ... I have five chapters to go until he appears ... I must not skip pages.' Be like Dumbledore. Tell people as little as possible. ;-) Yours Pippy Elf From meckelburg at foni.net Mon May 12 06:46:02 2003 From: meckelburg at foni.net (Mecki) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 06:46:02 -0000 Subject: Hagrids parents-How did they do *it* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57643 Hi all! Rereading GoF for the millionth time, a question occured. Hagrid is a half-giant- Giantess-mother and wizard-father. My question: how does this work? Imagine the size differences! It is worse than, lets say, a Bobtail and a Chihuahua! Okay, it might work out for Hagrdis parents, after all the female is the giant.(It wuold seem rather strange though) But Hagrid asked Olympe Maxime, "which one was it in your family". Can you imagine a human woman and a giant man? I mean apart from the biggest *ouch* I can think of, how can a human woman give birth to a half-giant baby, probably already about the size of a school-kid as a new-born? I mean, an ordinary 50cm baby nearly kills you (or at least you want to be dead the last few minutes before it's over:)) Can a woman survive either the sex with the giant or the birth of her half-giant baby? On a side-note: What if Mme Maxime and Hagrid had a baby. (she could be pregnant before Hagrid dies, who knows) I mean, the percentage is clear: About 50% probability for it to be half-gian, 25% full-giant and 25% full-wizard. Wouldn't a full-giant in the wizarding- world be worse than say a werewolf, even with those parents? It just kept me thinking Mecki From elmindreda8558 at aol.com Mon May 12 06:04:11 2003 From: elmindreda8558 at aol.com (jahanua) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 06:04:11 -0000 Subject: Petunia is not a muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Monita" > wrote: > > I am posting a lot lately aren't I. > > > > > > THe likeness of Filch's jealousy toward Hogwarts students and > > Petunia's attitude to her sister is uncanny isn't it. Maybe Petunia > > is not a muggle at all. Has Harry ever met or been told anything > > about his grandparents? > > > > Valky This can not be true, unless we all take the "everyone is decieved, and no one knows diddly" side. Tom tells Harry he will be going to meet his mudblood mother soon in CoS. I know there are other references to Lilly being mudblood, but I can not think of them. "Jahanua" From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Mon May 12 06:07:54 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 06:07:54 -0000 Subject: Would Hagrid be considered a half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57645 Forgive me if this has already been asked/discussed in the many posts regarding the blood classification subject, but I don't recall seeing it before. Do the terms pure-blood, half-blood and mudblood refer to the wizarding community when talking only about their heritage with Muggles, or does it also refer to children of wizards and non- Muggle/non-wizard folk? Specifically, I'm asking if Hagrid (and possibly Madame Maxime) would be considered a half-blood because he had one parent who was a wizard and one who was a giant. The references I've seen define "half- blood" as a wizard/witch of mixed parentage with one of those parents being a MUGGLE. Hagrid's other parent wasn't a Muggle, she was a giant. Would these terms then still apply to him or is this all a mute point because giants are so feared and shunned in the WW that the fact Hagrid is half giant negates the whole issue (he's at the bottom of the totem pole anyway). I don't know if any other inter-species breeding (man, that sounds so callous!) has occured or will occur in the WW, but I would love to see the impact it has on the purity of blood question. bowlwoman From trinity61us at yahoo.com Mon May 12 07:06:03 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 00:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrids parents-How did they do *it* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512070603.84456.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57646 Mecki wrote: > Hagrid is a half-giant- Giantess-mother and wizard-father. My question: how does this work? Imagine the size differences! Okay, it might work out for Hagrid's parents, after all the female is the giant.(It would seem rather strange though) But Hagrid asked Olympe Maxime, "which one was it in your family". Can you imagine a human woman and a giant man? I mean apart from the biggest *ouch* I can think of, how can a human woman give birth to a half-giant baby, probably already about the size of a school-kid as a new-born? I mean, an ordinary 50cm baby nearly kills you (or at least you want to be dead the last few minutes before it's over:)) Can a woman survive either the sex with the giant or the birth of her half-giant baby? >>>>>> Accomodation spells. This had to happen some where along the way! This is off topic, but in the land of Xanth, magic was used to create mixed breed creatures, so why not something like that in the WW. Not canon, but an explaination. There was obviously magic involved in Hagrids conception and birth.Well, maybe not the birth, ,that would be easy for her! Alex Fox From errolowl at yahoo.com Mon May 12 08:26:27 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:26:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?The_12_uses_of_Dumbledore=92s_omniscience?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57647 This is basically a rambling think-aloud that was written long,long ago and which never got to see the mauve of the list. For some strange reason, I feel the urge to post it now - Perhaps brought on by the insightful observation by Abigail: >...I've had the sneaking suspicion for a while >now that the defenses on Hogwarts are more >psychological than physical - everyone knows that >the castle is impregnable, so no one tries to get >in. Dumbledore's presence probably helps, too.... Oh Goody Abi! You see, I believe Dumbledore's omniscience is a similar psychological point, assumed as fact by the WW Ah, nearly-omniscient Dumbledore! That's the general impression he gives, or rather that's how he impresses Harry. He's a living legend with awesome powers, grandfatherly wisdom, a kindly spirit, a mischievous twinkle, noble ideals, and enormous responsibilities. Someone whose powers have IMO been exaggerated in the WW with the telling and retelling, till he is assumed to be infallible, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnificent all at once. Poor Albus ? talk about the burden of expectations! But Dumbledore is only human. And Harry is of course just catching on to something that we knew all along. Here's a man who makes a multitude of hiring mistakes, is an accessory to breaking major wizarding laws, (now, who shares that certain disregard for rules, eh? -- Cue for a "Dumbledore and Morality" essay, Gulplum), sometimes mis-times his awarding of points ever so slightly, gets decoyed by fake letters, needs glasses, has absolutely no radar for illegal animagi, doesn't know the extents of his own castle, has no control over the actions of mean or cowardly people, and either can't see or can't fix all the loopholes in his school's defenses.And there's more where that came from. I don't think I'm being too harsh either. Yes, it can be argued that he *might* have know all about everything all along, and that it is part of a cosmic/ Dumbldorian plan -- there are certainly plenty of brilliant theories out there, ranging from the mighty MAGIC DISHWASHER to Dumbledore!Ron REDHEAD ALWAYS. But the feeling I get is that fans in general tend to give enormous credit to Dumbledore, and I find it curious. Even if he isn't omniscient, one is obliged to make excuses for why he isn't so. ;-) Way back in post 37663, Eloise grappled with this problem thus: >I have never suggested that Dumbledore *is * omniscient, merely that >he gives an impression of near omniscience. >The issue of what he knows is also intriguing. I have long had the >feeling that there are some areas in which he does choose to employ >a near omniscience, and others where he chooses to remain in >ignorance. The secret doings of the Marauders would be an example of >the latter. > >His ignorance, like the issues of his goodness and justice can also >be worrying and I wonder if this can be related to my speculations >in my last post about an awareness of a predestined plan working >itself out. Perhaps not investigating Crouch/ Moody and Quirrell is >an aspect of this. Perhaps he only chooses to know that which is >both important and which he can (and should) do something about. >From our perspective not knowing about those two was a major >omission, but I think his perspective's a whole lot different from >ours. To which Talondg replied: >An _informed_ ignorence. :) >There's ignorence-as-cluelessness, then there's ignorence-as-tacit- >approval, and then there's ignorence-as-teaching-skill. > >The latter two aren't really ignorence. You _know_ what's going on, >but you pretend otherwise unless you're forced to step in. >The Marauder's activities are to my mind, Dumbldore letting them run >wild a bit so they can learn some life skills - it's more supervised >than they think. Same with Harry's contact with Sirius in GoF. >The rescue of BuckBeak in PoA is ignorence-as-approval. >No, I think Dumbledore knows exactly what is going on around him, bit >only reveals his awareness if it suits a purpose or if he is forced >to by circumstance or take Michelle's post (37691): >From what I've gathered reading chat transcripts and theories, etc...I >actually believe Dumbledore's so-called 'omniscience' has to do >specifically with his office. So, maybe Dumbedore's office has special >properties that let him see into other rooms or listen to >conversations within the Hogwart's grounds? That way, whenever >Dumbledore is out of his office, he misses things that happen, like >perhaps Riddle's framing of Hagrid. And this could explain other >things he's missed, too, like the Marauder's being animagi and >Crouch Jr's impersonation of Moody. After all, Dumbledore is a busy >man and doesn't have time to snoop for hours on end. He probably >only snoops when he has specific suspicions, or if he just wants to >check up on someone, like Harry. Sigh. I'd really like to believe all that. But canon doesn't support any of that yet. Much like Darrin's quest for a "good Slyth", I await the "almost-omniscient" Dumbledore. So, does that make it my turn now to explain how he apparently knows things if he is not at least somewhat omniscient? -- but, but I really do not have any clever theory -- please, may I be excused? Please? Oh, very Well then, I'll give it a shot. Why do people think Dumbledore knows more than any powerful wizard with acute intelligence, excellent extrapolating powers, and a keen understanding of human nature could know? What are those instances that cannot be waved away with "he had an informant", "it came to him in a dream" or the equally handy "that's a part of the spell"? These three, well ok, excuses, may not have canon,but neither does know-it-all Dumbledore. He admits himself that he doesn't know why Harry survived. SS, pg 12 "We can only guess" said Dumbledore. "we may never know". He does seem to be amazingly certain about the events of that night, but that could conceivably be explained by any combination of informant (5th man at Godric's?), JabberKnoll, dream scene (much like Harry with Frank Bryce's murder), or merely background knowledge of events leading up to that point that helps him extrapolate ("I'm going to tell you everything Harry"). He knows that Harry isn't getting his letter? Seems more like the magic quill dashes off those letters with a kind of built in GPS for as long as the recipient has not received it. Of, course, it goes through McGonagall for her signature, and she informs Dumbledore. (Did Minerva really sign *all* those hundreds of letters to Harry alone?). Same thing with Harry getting his letter in CoS, care of the Weasleys. Of course, Arthur says "Dumbledore already knows you are here Harry. Doesn't miss a trick that man", but he could be referring to the trick of programming the quill to do the GPS thing, right? ;) The mirror of Erised? Why couldn't he have just been keeping a watch all twinkly eyed, on Harry that night to see if he did sneak off to the kitchens like James? And then of course, once Harry finds the mirror, he's forced to monitor events and explain how it works.If he discovered that Harry was on a quest to find out about the stone, he's just the kind to help instead of restrict or discourage. He lets Harry take a hand due to the interest he shows ? and perhaps as Harry postulates later, a feeling that he has a right to face Voldmort if he wanted to. We don't know that he set up the obstacles to suit the kids at all. (Not very good obstacles I agree ? but that's the fallible Dumbledore) And the BuckBeak thingy ? ah, my favorite half-baked theory :) Dumbledore, at the execution gathering for Buckbeak, decides to rescue the poor animal. To that end, he uses a spell that causes, say, a crack in the fabric of time, perhaps intending to come back himself from the future and release Buckbeak. Later when he faces the Sirius dilemma, he connives his idea to let H/H do it, rescuing Sirius in the bargain. All spur of the moment reaction. (Of course, begs a side note on er, time-cracks and time travel. Maybe I'll work toward it..) And so it goes on. See, it's all an illusion. ;-) Pippin had the gist in post 45242: >"But if Dumbledore's omniscience is a comforting illusion which >is slowly dispelled, then what we see is a sort of religious >parallel-- Harry first sees Dumbledore as an all powerful and >benevolent but distant being. This being controls his destiny and >can intervene to protect him in miraculous ways, but has >inexplicably abandoned him to a world of suffering. But as Harry >grows, he begins to see Dumbledore as a mentor and friend, >immeasurably wiser than himself but still fallible, far more >benevolent but not infinitely so, someone whose power is limited >but whose love is unconditional--as long as we don't expect >blindness instead of kindness, that is." Which brings me to wondering if Rowling consciously created the illusion of Omniscient!Dumbledore. He definitely comes in handy as a plot tool. It is certainly useful in tying up loose ends; in providing a way for Harry to set off for the holidays not quite so angst-ridden or shouldering enormous burdens ? after all, *Dumbledore* knows about everything thats happened; as Harry's omnipresent link between the different facets of the plot ?home life, school life, and the greater war; as the single source of believable information the readers and Harry accept unquestioningly (she confirmed as much in the Cos DVD interview); to illustrate the greater morals of the story from the perspective of someone who apparently knows *all* the aspects of the story .... and possibly to ultimately illustrate that even role models are ultimately human, and that no one is absolutely powerful. Errol. Who would be frankly amazed if someone had the patience to read through this entire post:) From steinber at inter.net.il Mon May 12 08:46:51 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:46:51 -0000 Subject: JKR the non-conformist Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57648 This subject has been veered to a debate over whether the Good/Evil treatment is original. I never thought it was, except to the extent that JKR manages to pit good vs evil as the overall plot, fantasy style, while still having very ambiguously good/evil characters, realistic novel style. However, she does lots of non-conventional stuff in other areas. The ones I mentioned are her type of protagonist, who is neither hero nor anti-hero; her opening; her mood-setting; and her take on adolescence (much more natural and un-angsty than has been popular). I could add the way her story can't be categorized as either comedy, tragedy, tragicomedy, or dark comedy. It's very funny, and somewhat tragic, but ultimately very hopeful. It's also too real (while being complete fantasy) to be either comedy or tragedy. I hope you guys get what I'm after. I'd love a long list of these. Thanks, The Admiring Skeptic From steinber at inter.net.il Mon May 12 08:48:34 2003 From: steinber at inter.net.il (asandhp) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:48:34 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Adopted!Harry_is_Really=85._TTTR?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57649 This is the theory I promised a few months ago. I've finally found time to write it up and post it. Since I've made the subject line so direct, I'll go straight into the proofs. How do I "know" that Harry was adopted by James and Lily? A number of ways, starting with the fact that JKR is the master of red herrings, false identities, and startling plot twists. We have been told so many times that Harry looks just like his father + mother's eyes that it "has to" be a red herring. Methinks the lady (JKR) protests too much. There is no reason Harry could not have been charmed to look like his father plus mother's eyes. To look exactly like another person, you need polyjuice every hour, but to look very much like someone, a permanent transfiguration should do it. Canon proof: the story, in PS/SS ch. 2, about Harry's hair growing back so fast after his haircut. Besides the one incident of the near- scalping that had Harry horrified to go to school, which led to a magical overnight hair replacement, the text also tells us (approx. ? books still on loan) that "Harry had had more haircuts than anyone else in his school," and that "he always came back from the barber looking as if he hadn't gone." In other words, there is something unnatural about his hair on a regular basis, which has nothing to do with his being angry or scared. This is not magic that Harry is doing. This is magic that was done to him. We also know that there is "nothing" he can do to get his hair to lie flat. Why not? I propose that his hair was charmed into always looking like James', a charm too powerful for Harry to beat with a brush or mousse. (James, though, with no charm on his own hair, could probably style it when he pleased. When he charmed Harry, though, he went for his typical lazy look, not the one he worked at for formal occasions.) This line of thinking is nice, but as proof, it is not enough. If Harry was adopted, why wouldn't anyone know? Well, the Dursley's wouldn't know because, as it says right on page 1 of PS/SS, they hadn't seen the Potters for a few years before landing Harry. They had only heard that J&LP had had a son. They had never seen Lily during any of the time she would have been pregnant, and were too uninterested to hear any details of the birth/adoption. So they just assumed that Harry was born to Lily and James. Dumbledore, I am sure, knows exactly who Harry really is, but for his own reasons, he is not telling. With or without magic dishwashers, it is easy to imagine reasons for Dumbledore not to tell. The wizarding world in general would not have had much chance to find out because James and Lily were on the run for a while before they were killed. Canon is in PoA, where McGonagall tells Rosmerta, at the Three Broomsticks, that "[Dumbledore] was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping [V.} informed of their movements." Later, in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius confronts Pettigrew with his having "been passing information to [Voldemort] for a year before Lily and James died." So J&L were probably on the run for most of a year, and might have been hiding in various places for two years, for all we know. If so, then most people would not know about Harry being adopted rather than born. The only puzzle is Sirius and Lupin. They were in contact with James and Lily until the last, and would certainly have known that Lily had never borne a child. However, after seeing how sincerely attached J&L were to Harry, they might have simply loved Harry as J&L's child regardless of how the Potters had acquired him, and all these years later, the fact of adoption would not have mattered to them anymore. This is not very firm evidence, I agree, but consider the fact that JKR has hinged every plot so far on a false identity. For so versatile a writer, this is somewhat odd. Her using false identities has become so predictable that half way through GoF I had already figured out that Moody must somehow be a fake and the villain. (I didn't guess Crouch Jr. at all; I didn't try to guess who Moody really was.) *Why* is so talented a writer being so repetitive? ? My guess: as foreshadowing for a REALLY BIG false-identity-plot-hinge. Now if you are a writer building up to a monster false-identity plot hinge, you might as well build up to the biggest false identity you can. In HP, that would be Harry himself. As I've shown, there is no reason why Harry's identity can't be false, and some good reasons to think it is. Fine. But who, then, was Harry before he became a Potter? Well, following the same logic as before, if you are a superb writer building up, through seven books, to a false identity for your hero, he might as well have the most shocking, dramatically rich (bangy) real identity possible. It would be a waste, after seven great novels, for Harry to turn out to be Ron's lost twin brother. Nice, mushy, but a waste. The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for Harry to be Voldemort himself. Not his son or father or brother; that is Star Wars. Harry is Tom Riddle, time-turned to the 1980's as an infant and adopted by Lily and James. Hold your bricks! I know that the time-turner doesn't work that way! If 15-yr-old Harry were Tom Riddle, then Tom wouldn't have been at Hogwarts 50 years ago to rat on Hagrid and leave a diary. He would never have grown up 50 years ago to become Voldemort. Voldemort would not exist. All this is true as we know the time-turner. And I grant that I am building on zero canon when I say that "just because the time-turner can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done." But, as detectives like to say, to prove murder (rather than death by accident) you need both a method and a motive, and the more telling of the two is motive. We all know that JKR can create methods aplenty (who heard of portkeys before GoF?), so you will surely forgive me if I proceed to proof by motive and let her invent a method when the time comes. I propose that Voldemort himself brought his infant self forward using some dark arts which allowed his adult self to continue to exist even though his childhood time-line was being disrupted. And I propose that he did so for the express purpose of killing his infant self. Why? Because, as we know, Voldemort's main goal is immortality and absolute power, and, I propose, he discovered a way to attain not just "ordinary" immortality and absolute power, but something even greater: a form of dark godhood; not just living without end, but becoming a being "without beginning and without end" as G-d is. And part of the magic that would accomplish this godhood would require getting rid of his beginning ? killing his own infant self. Thus, I believe he snatched his infant self to the present (1980's) where the ritual was prepared, and was about to kill infant!Riddle when someone stole infant!Riddle at the last minute, saving the world from an unstoppable god!Voldemort. The kidnappers may have been James and Lily or may have been someone else, but soon enough, infant!Riddle was deposited with the Potters for safekeeping, and in no time, they fell in love with him (as we all have) and made him their true own. They disguised him, renamed him Harry P., put enough love into him to last a lifetime, and died for him ? and for the world, for Voldemort didn't give up his dream and kept coming back (and keeps coming back) to finish the job he started ? killing Harry to erase his beginning and give him the godhood he dreams of. How come no one has squealed this amazing fact? Well, who could? Probably, no one knew about the ritual but Voldemort himself, and Dumbeldore, who knows everything. Even James and Lily might not have known who their baby really was. And even if they did know, surely, there was no reason for them to tell anyone else. I doubt Voldemort would have told any of the DEs ? he doesn't really trust them enough for something so critical to his advancement. And now, with his return to power, he would probably feel safer not telling anyone. With his corrupt mind, he would probably figure that if people knew who Harry was, they'd surely kill him, not least to prevent Voldemort from doing it himself and attaining godhood. As for Dumbledore, can you imagine him telling Harry such a thing? Maybe that is what is coming in the "tell everything" speech, but personally, I don't think JKR is going to divulge this until Book 7. So this is my thesis, which, if it is thin on supporting canon, is still a perfect fit within what we know. Voldemort's desire for godhood is a logical extension of everything we know about him, and I believe that the rest of my thesis follows quite inevitably from that desire. He must therefore need to remove his infant self; such a fatal, world-twisting act could never be relegated to a sub-plot or paraphrase (in other words, it must be attempted within the storyline); and Harry has too many canon connections to Voldemort for him to be anyone but that infant self. As for canon connections between Harry and Voldemort, this list has discussed them backwards and forwards. Harry's a parselmouth; Tom Riddle notices similarities between them; Dumbledore seems very, anxiously interested in the meeting between Riddle and Harry; Dumbledore "thinks" that Voldemort transferred some powers with the curse that gave the scar; the Sorting Hat thinks Harry would fit Slytherin; Harry thinks he's heard the name Tom Riddle before, as if it were something from when he was very young; Harry has this psychic connection to Voldemort . Of course, Harry could just be related to Voldemort, based on all this, but the list has never been happy with that route, for good reason. I believe my proposal satisfies both the foreshadowings and the list's desire for Bangst and originality. It has other advantages, too, like economy. With just two new pieces of information (Harry = Voldemort/ Ritualmurdered!Harry = god! Voldemort), we answer almost all the questions hanging over the series: Why did Voldemort want to kill Harry as a baby? Why does he still want to kill him now? Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry as a baby? Why has he failed again and again? Why did Voldemort turn into a wraith? Why is Dumbledore seemingly grooming Harry for the final confrontation with Voldemort (couldn't he find anyone else)? Why is it so important that Harry stay alive? What was that gleam in Dumbledore's eyes? Even ? why does Snape hate Harry so much? I've answered the first two already. As for 3 & 4, godhood is not such a simple thing to attain, and the universe (G-d) is set against the existence of a creature with no beginning and no end, so it will not allow Harry to die before Voldemort ? but Dumbledore can't be sure of that. Or, Voldemort just has the magic preparations wrong, which he is slowly beginning to realize ? but Dumbledore can't count on that either. As for 5, see the answers to 3&4: the AK was set to eliminate one Tom Riddle, and it got one, but it took the later one, since the universe was opposed to getting rid of the earlier one first. And Voldemort's magic kept him as a wraith instead of his being killed altogether. 6: Not because Harry's the heir of anything or has any special powers, but just because a superpowerful dark wizard can best be defeated by himself. 7: Because Dumbledore can't be sure that Harry's death won't send Voldemort to godhood even if Voldemort doesn't do it himself. 8: Now that Harry's blood is in Voldemort, killing Harry won't completely eliminate Voldemort's beginning, so no godhood. Or, Voldemort touching Harry proved that the preparations for the godhood spell were done wrong to begin with. Or whatever. But then Dumbledore looked old and tired again because he realized that even if Voldemort doesn't become a god, he can do lots of evil anyway. 9. Snape is the one person besides Dumbledore and Voldemort who knows who Harry really is. And Snape hates Voldemort so badly that he can't bear the sight of Harry, either. (I don't think Voldemort knows that Snape knows.) That's my plug for economy. But my strongest plug for my theory has to do with JKR's themes. Making Harry = Voldemort plays the strongest card possible for the moral choices theme. Harry doesn't defeat Voldemort because he is born with any special abilities ? he has exactly the same ones Voldemort has. Neither does Harry have an innately better character ? he's got the identical innate character as Ultimate Evil. But somehow (JKR will pick the somehow she believes in), Harry made better choices, and that's the only difference. Or in other words, the ultimate battle is with the evil who is oneself. Sounds good, no? So, dear list, tell me whether any of you think I am right. The Admiring Skeptic P.S. For those of you looking for Bangst, think of how Harry will feel when he finds out the facts and suspects (wrongly) that J&L took him in only to thwart V, and that they died not to save him but just to save the world, and that D, Lupin, et al, have been goading him with false parental sacrifice tales just to manipulate him into fighting V, who is himself, so why should he prefer all these coarse manipulators over V, who, after all, is his own flesh and blood? And even if V wants to kill Harry, why, Harry will wonder, should Harry object to his own self's desire to dispose of his self as he pleases? Why should this be worse than D&Co's desire to kill his alter-self, V? Eventually, Harry will come around, but it will be a very, very difficult moment. P.S. I have a continuation of my theory that involves the end of the series and the night J&L died, but enough is enough for now. From koticzka at wp.pl Mon May 12 09:12:39 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (koticzka) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:12:39 -0000 Subject: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: <20030510192249.24377.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > Even Snape I believe has his good points which will at some time probably be shown us before the story has ended. Well, he is saving Harry's live in HP1 and protecting him after the fatal Quddich match - hanging around Gryffs Trio all the time. This is woay I liked this greasy git. Snape I mean. Too noble to be Slyth? ;) Thank you for pointing! Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From lumos28 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 09:17:14 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (Anita Sathe) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 02:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the letter, a time turner, good slyth, post school harry and the sorting hat Message-ID: <20030512091714.97295.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57651 hi all, I'm brand new to the group so please excuse me if I'm bringing up things that have already been discussed. A few things I've always wondered about: * What exactly was in the letter that Dumbledore leaves at the Dursley's doorstep with baby Harry? (PS/SS) Its no secret, how much they hate the Potters, wondering if the Dursleys would have just handed over the baby to ..i dont know..an orphanage or something? Was there something in the letter that made them keep him/raise him, against their wishes? If so..what was it? * Can Voldy just get hold of a time turner and turn it back a few hundred-thousand times so he doesn't AK Harry and blow himself up? And maybe find another way to "take care" of baby Harry... *If Arthur Weasley insists that we not trust anything if we can't see where it keeps its brains (CoS), how come the school sorting hat is given such a huge responsiblity of sorting students and producing weapons in an emergency like the sword The Slytherins do seem do be all bad..I too am hoping JKR shows at least one in a good light. Just read some of the posts about what Harry might do after school. I don't remember who wrote it...but I agree..would love to see a completely relaxed Harry, post defeat of Voldy (who the Trio defeats with Neville playing a big role) playing as Seeker for England..and winning the cup too! -Anita from India who is going to be 'crucioed' soon as OoP releases in my cou --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon May 12 10:06:04 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:06:04 -0000 Subject: Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: <001501c31846$2feb8f50$97ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" > >>> I did wonder about how well Harry would've been protected had he been being watched by Marge or Yvonne. If Petunia knew they would be incapable of protecting him, I find it interesting that she would not just say so to Vernon. If she isn't saying so to Vernon, then there is at least one thing she is keeping from him. I'd love to know what else she knows but hasn't told anyone, even her husband. Because for some reason, I find it hard to believe that the protection would extend so far as to one of Petunia's Muggle friends, even if Petunia did entrust Harry to her care.<<< I agree with you that Petunia does know more than she's letting on, and I also like to imagine that Petunia is being this horrible and abusive to Harry because it is for his own good. However, the evidence is that she didn't like him and what he stood for even before she met him, and her future behaviour is in line with that feeling. It certainly seems plausible that the hate surrounding Harry contributes to his protection, just as Lily's love did. Harry has been allowed to be by himself - after the London Zoo incident when he's finally allowed out of his cupboard, he walks round outside, by himself to escape Dudley and his gang. I think that Harry does still have residual protection when he is away from his family, but it reduces over time. The key thing about Dudley's birthday is that, it is illegal for kids to be left home alone under the age of 12 - and Harry was only 10. The Dursleys are keen to be seen to law-abiding. From the Dursleys viewpoint Harry is a danger. A house has been blown up around him, he dyes his teacher's wig blue and he regrows his own hair. He is a danger in himself and a magnet for trouble. He must not be left alone in anything the Dursleys value. He can though, go outside by himself. Ali From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 12 10:33:01 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 03:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: <001501c31846$2feb8f50$97ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030512103301.89710.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57653 --- Kelly wrote: > If Petunia knew > they would be incapable of > protecting him, I find it interesting that she > would not just say so to > Vernon. If she isn't saying so to Vernon, then > there is at least one thing > she is keeping from him. I'd love to know what > else she knows but hasn't > told anyone, even her husband. Lynn: It may well be that by this time Vernon has forgotten or dismissed things simply because nothing has happened for the last 10 years while for Petunia it is always at the back of her mind, after all, it was her sister who was 'blown up'. Consider also that Dudley and Harry were in the room and to say anything openly to Vernon would have brought up questions better not brought up. I wonder also if it may have been more on Petunia's mind as Harry is close to turning 11 and Petunia may remember, especially if she is older than Lily which seems likely to me, that Lily went to Hogwarts when she turned 11. Dudley's 11th birthday would bring it to the forefront. Lynn (who wonders what Vernon's reaction was when he first learned his sister-in-law was a witch) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 12 10:39:39 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 03:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody Vs. Wormtail and Crouch = Freedom for Sirius? In-Reply-To: <51.2f1353ba.2bf08979@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030512103939.14427.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57654 --- Sabrina wrote: > Still, with the Rita wildcard knowing that > Black is alive and well, it's nice > to know they've got Moody who knows the truth > about Peter Pettigrew if it > should come to that. Lynn: Except we don't know if Rita knows that Sirius was there. While it's a pretty good bet she had been on the window sill long enough to know that, we don't know that she had been or how much she could have seen or heard. Which, of course, makes it even more of a wild card. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 12 10:55:42 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 03:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Malkin/meanSnape/Darrin Slytherins/Smartest atHogwarts/Alliteration/Rosmerta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512105542.53424.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57655 --- Catlady wrote: > The problem with that is that so many cats look > so similar that I > have never had any trouble finding commercial > photos of cats who look > EXACTLY like my Nan, my Obi, my Sasha, my > Taliesin, my Cinnamon .... > I even saw a picture in the Foster & Smith > catalog one time that > looked like my Pixy! (she's a tiny pastel > tortoiseshell with a pointy > face, rather unusual combination) Lynn: One difference is that there would be characteristics you may not find on your average cat. This is why the MoM makes note of the particular markings on registered animagi. We know from McGonagall and dear old Rita that you can see the shape of their glasses in their markings. Catlady wrote: > [Slytherin] did leave the basilisk behind in his Chamber > of Secrets, but we > have only the psychotic TMR's word that his > reason for leaving the > basilisk was to kill "Mudbloods". He may well > have intended the > Basilisk to be used as defense against any army > that attacked the > school, or that the Basilisk remain in the > Chamber to guard whatever > OTHER secrets he had hidden there. Lynn: My problem with the defense argument is how would Salazar know that one of his heirs would be at Hogwarts at a time when the Chamber may be opened. Guarding other secrets he may have hidden there is a reasonable argument and I wonder if the Chamber has since been explored. For some reason I doubt this as it would make too much sense. LOL While I agree we can't take TMR's word for the reason, I don't think the reason Slytherin left the basilisk was for benign reasons. I would tend more to his heir being able to take over (take back?) Hogwarts for Slytherin. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 12 11:26:12 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:26:12 -0000 Subject: Malkin/meanSnape/Darrin Slytherins/Smartest atHogwarts/Alliteration/Rosmerta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57656 Gisthar: > Crabbe and Goyle aren't smart enough to think of it, but either of > them would do it for Draco if asked. However, as some Draco said in > some fanfic: "I don't know if that means they're loyal or just > thick." It would not occur to Crabbe and Goyle not only because they are thick, but because self-sacrifice wouldn't occur to them. Self- sacrifice is hardly a Slytherin trait. > Darrin wrote: > > << It was old Salazar who left behind a giant, Muggle-killing snake > because he didn't want anyone but purebloods attending school. >> > > You are jumping to conclusion about what old Salazar intended! He did leave the school because of a conflict with Godric that started with> Salazar's desire to limit admission to students who had been raised in the wizarding world; according to Binns, Salazar's reason was fear of Muggle attacks, not any belief that Muggle-borns are inferior. > You are also jumping to a conclusion. The text tells us, on CoS pg 114, that Salazar thought Muggle-borns were "untrustworthy." Yeah, and Hitler thought the Jews were untrustworthy too. > He did leave the basilisk behind in his Chamber of Secrets, but we > have only the psychotic TMR's word that his reason for leaving the > basilisk was to kill "Mudbloods". He may well have intended the > Basilisk to be used as defense against any army that attacked the > school, or that the Basilisk remain in the Chamber to guard whatever OTHER secrets he had hidden there. > Actually, we hear it from Binns too, recounting the legend. Also on page 114: "The heir alone would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror wihin and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." As far as Salazar leaving the basilisk for school defense, what's the point of setting up a school defense in a chamber that only two students in 1,000 years can even get to? Wouldn't do a lot of good if the Muggles attacked when the Heir wasn't attending, would it? Darrin From koticzka at wp.pl Mon May 12 09:04:27 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (koticzka) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:04:27 -0000 Subject: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57657 koticzka wrote: > > 3) Yes. Very noble - to add points for Gryffindor at the very end. Bravo, Headmaster! What an example for youngsters! Was he Gryff? No? he seems to favour them, don't he? For the balance with weaker Snape, of course. bowlwoman: > I always felt that Dumbledore gave the points to the trio (and > Neville) at the Final Feast in PS/SS to "give back" the ones that > McGonagall took away when they were caught in the Norbert fiasco. I > don't think he did it solely for Gryffindor to win the house cup or > to favor them. (...) > I think DD was not only rewarding them for saving the WW from the re- > rise of an immortal VM with the stone, I think he was also giving > them back their dignity that was lost because they did a good thing > to help out a friend. An eye for an eye? It not Dumbledore's style. The tactic would smells Slyths rather than Gryff. Should one adjust the rules to his needs? If we feel not fair about Snape or McGonnagal, should we approve what Headmaster did? I do not agree with compromises like this. I know it sounds severe (not very Snapish... ;) ) but this is McGonagall who is a sample of justice for me. I was angry about those final points mainly because it was unfair in my opinion and because people clap their hands only for three little Gryffs who earn points breaking almost all possible rules, at the same time they complain about Master of Potion. It has its name in some countries and can be explained with a sample - What is the difference between good and evil? When one takes my cows it is evil. When I take cows from someone - it is good. I understand the motivation, but dignity is not about winning for every price. It is about winning honestly, in a noble way. Is it not? Wouldn't it be more Gryffindor way to lose but stay noble? It is about stereotypes, we live and think. But should we use them, give them up or - as another way of thinking and acting - stop moving cows from left to right and backwards and find the propoer owner? OK, After so many times they were moved it might be difficult... ;) Please, consider - I would eagerly find out your point of view. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 12 12:29:14 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:29:14 -0000 Subject: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57658 > > bowlwoman: > > > I always felt that Dumbledore gave the points to the trio (and > > Neville) at the Final Feast in PS/SS to "give back" the ones that > > McGonagall took away when they were caught in the Norbert > fiasco. I > > don't think he did it solely for Gryffindor to win the house cup > or > > to favor them. > (...) > > I think DD was not only rewarding them for saving the WW from the > re- > > rise of an immortal VM with the stone, I think he was also giving > > them back their dignity that was lost because they did a good > thing > > to help out a friend. Koticzka follow: > An eye for an eye? It not Dumbledore's style. The tactic would > smells Slyths rather than Gryff. Where in Bowlwoman's piece do you see eye for an eye? She said Dumbledore was rewarding them for saving the WW from the stone and also, giving them back the points they lost for trying to do a good deed to help a friend. I don't see vengeance, retribution, or anything else associated with "eye for an eye" in her post. Please explain. Because what I see is Dumbledore correcting an injustice and recognizing that some points are worth more than others. I was angry about those final points mainly because it was unfair in > my opinion and because people clap their hands only for three little Gryffs who earn points breaking almost all possible rules, at the same time they complain about Master of Potion. "Three little Gryffs who earn points breaking almost all possible rules." Wow. That's a SERIOUS downplaying of what Harry, Ron and Hermione did. Did you MEAN it to read, "They didn't do much of anything, just broke some rules. Just three little Gryffs." Forget the saving the stone for a moment. Forget Harry's courage in taking on a fully-trained, fully-grown wizard and Ron's self- sacrifice, and Hermione's cool thinking. They outfoxed their teachers. The teachers set up all those defenses. Ron is a better chess player than McGonagall. Harry can outfly what Flitwick charms up and Hermione, at least in terms of logic, outsmarted Snape. (Took her about a minute, too.) I'm glad to see that rewarded, myself. A school where the students who surpass the teachers' expectations get rewarded. I like that concept. > I understand the motivation, but dignity is not about winning for > every price. It is about winning honestly, in a noble way. > Is it not? Wouldn't it be more Gryffindor way to lose but stay noble? They won in a noble way, much more noble than the Slyths. I consider it more noble to earn points through bravery, good deeds and honor than to skulk around, trying to lose another team points. And as I've said before, Dumbledore chose to reward four students who each made courageous sacrifices doing what they thought was best for the school. This message is especially needed now that V-Mort is back, and will no doubt be combing Hogwarts -- and first and foremost, the ranks of the Slyths -- for future DE material. Stick with the honorable path, do the right, not the easy, thing and you will ultimately be rewarded. It will be harder, but the cheers will be that much greater. It would have been easy for Harry, Ron and Hermione to just stay in their common room and trust the teachers' defenses, even though they knew a teacher had turned evil (didn't have the name right, of course, but they knew a teacher was out for the stone) and it would have been easy for Neville to just hide in his room, not worrying about who else was losing points, so long as he wasn't. But all four took the harder road. And were rewarded. Darrin From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 12 12:45:20 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 05:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The_12_uses_of_Dumbledore?s_omniscience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512124520.12488.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57659 --- errolowl wrote: > doesn't know the extents of > his own castle, has > no control over the actions of mean or cowardly > people, and either > can't see or can't fix all the loopholes in his > school's > defenses.And there's more where that came from. Lynn: Okay, here you lost me. How do you know Dumbledore doesn't know the extent of the castle? What do you mean he has no control over the actions of mean or cowardly people or can't see or fix loopholes? While I think I may know what people and things you are referring to, I'd prefer to know exactly before I disagree since if the people and things are different, I might agree. 8) While I don't think Dumbledore is omniscient, I do think there are things he may just not be telling since to do so would reveal too much of the future plots or his way of revealing things is really just a foreshadowing for the reader and done in such a way that it's not obvious to the reader. I will not blame Dumbledore for what the author makes him say or do as he has absolutely no control over that. ;) errolowl wrote: > Why do people think Dumbledore knows more than > any powerful wizard > with acute intelligence, excellent > extrapolating powers, and a keen > understanding of human nature could know? Lynn: Because that's what the author wants us to think? Dumbledore is used quite a bit for foreshadowing coming events and to explain the events after. It is not unreasonable then that people think Dumbledore does know more. errolowl wrote: > He knows that Harry isn't getting his letter? > Same thing with Harry getting his > letter in CoS, care of the > Weasleys. Of course, Arthur says "Dumbledore > already knows you > are here Harry. Doesn't miss a trick that man", > but he could > be referring to the trick of programming the > quill to do the GPS > thing, right? ;) Lynn: Well, no. Harry received the letter, Harry handled the letter, Harry opened the envelope and was at point of unfolding the letter. How did anyone know that Harry didn't read the letter? The letter was read. It seems to me there would have to be a bit more to it than just GPS. The GPS thing could well explain how the envelope got addressed though. errolowl wrote: > And the BuckBeak thingy ah, my favorite > half-baked theory :) Lynn: Again, this is so very author. To call back Macnair to sign the execution order giving Harry enough time to get Buckbeak away and then dismissing Macnair about Buckbeak being in the Forest is to give the impression that Dumbledore knew exactly what was going to happen and helped it happen. errolowl wrote: > Which brings me to wondering if Rowling > consciously created the > illusion of Omniscient!Dumbledore. Lynn: Those are my thoughts on the matter. > Errol. > Who would be frankly amazed if someone had the > patience to read > through this entire post:) Lynn: I don't claim patience. It was a very good way for me to remember that there are sane and intelligent people out in the world unlike those I've had to deal with today. LOL Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jmmears at comcast.net Mon May 12 14:48:40 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:48:40 -0000 Subject: Rowling's Roster System (Was: Re: "Good Slyth" (was: stereotypes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57660 I (Serenadust) wrote: > > the Photos section, the first symbol after each students' name is a > > circle or a square, which is either left white, or blacked out. > > Unlike either Crabbe or Goyle or Tracey Davis (whose squares are > > blacked out) Millicent's circle is left white> > > > > JKR stated that the entries by the names in her notes indicate the > > students in Harry's year, their backgrounds, and allegiances. The > > last column obviously indicates the house the student is sorted > > into, the second symbol seems to indicate parentage (ie; pureblood, > > half-blood, muggle-born), but it's unclear what the first symbol > > means. I think that it's a hint as to where the various student's > > loyalties will lie. Following this theory, Millicent (and one other > > Slyth whose name is unclear and hasn't been mentioned in the books, > > yet) could very well end up supporting the good guys. Rach responded: > I'm not theorizing on the "good slyth" topic; instead, I've taken a closer look at > the screen grabs mentioned by serenadust above. I believe the first symbol > merely indicates gender (hollow circle=female, filled in box=male). Looking > at the two pages shown in the screen grabs, this theory holds. Thus, the first > symbol is not indicative of loyalty. Actually the screen grabs only show the top and bottom halves of the same page. You are right that the empty circle=female, filled box=male is consistent for this one page. I just have a hard time believing that JKR needs to use one entire column to keep track of the genders of the student. Except for the androgynous Blaise Z. and *possibly* Tracey Davis, their respective sex is apparent from their names. It just seems to me that these symbols must be more significant than that. Rach continued: > Another reason to throw out this symbol=loyalty theory is the fact that while > Millicent's is hollow and Crabb and Goyle's are filled in (makes sense if > Millicent is a "good slyth), but Seamus Finnigan and Justin Fitch- Fletchley's > symbols are filled in squares as well. Is it likely that a half- Muggle and a > Muggle-born would side with Lord Voldemort, given his hatred of Muggles? I > honestly think not. Well, I wouldn't rule it out at all. I can't believe that *all* the Slytherns and *all* DEs are pure-bloods. There simply aren't enough pure-bloods to go around. Ron points out in CoS, "most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." CoS, Chapter 7 Tom Riddle/Voldy himself is half-blood, after all. I've been suspicious of Seamus ever since PS/SS when the hat took nearly a whole minute before putting him in Gryffindor. If there's going to be a *bad* Gryffindor (which I think is very likely), he's my candidate at this point. Rach wrote: Sorry serena, but I think its back to the drawing board > (though Millicent may be good, who knows?) Well, I can't dispute that the first column on the first page is consistent with student gender, but I don't buy that it has *no* other significance ;-). I sure wish we'd gotten a look at page 2, though. Thanks for your response. You may well be right, but I still can't see why JKR needs a column just to keep track of boys vs girls. Jo Serenadust From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 12 15:18:01 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:18:01 -0000 Subject: Rowling's Roster System (Was: Re: "Good Slyth" (was: stereotypes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57661 Jo wrote: > > Well, I wouldn't rule it out at all. I can't believe that *all* the > Slytherns and *all* DEs are pure-bloods. There simply aren't enough > pure-bloods to go around. Ron points out in CoS, "most wizards > these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles > we'd've died out." CoS, Chapter 7 > Tom Riddle/Voldy himself is half-blood, after all. I've been > suspicious of Seamus ever since PS/SS when the hat took nearly a > whole minute before putting him in Gryffindor. If there's going to > be a *bad* Gryffindor (which I think is very likely), he's my > candidate at this point. > > Answering the second point first, I think we've had a bad Gryffindor (not saying we can't have others, though) in Peter Pettigrew. Yes, we don't know for sure he was a Gryff, but I think the evidence points in that direction. Foremost, three people learning Animagic and four people sneaking around together almost have to be in the same house. Please understand, I've never tried to make the converse argument to my "So Far, All Slyths Bad" routine, which is "So Far, All Gryffs Good." I don't believe that to be the case. Riddle is half-blood, but he's also a direct descendant of old Sal Slyth himself, and he renounced, violently, everything Muggle. I believe all the DEs -- there are only 30 of them after all -- to be pureblood. I just can't see V-Mort trusting such a job to those that's aren't pureblood. While I understand that it would be tough to exclusively choose pureblood for Slyth -- and considering that Ron the Gryff and Ernie the Huffle are purebloods, other houses are competing for them as well -- I would think the sorting hat tries its darnedest. Again, the password is pureblood and Draco and his boys openly talk about exterminating mudbloods. Seems awfully hard to be a Slyth in that environment. But if one is, maybe that'll be my good Slyth, someone who just gets tired of hearing that racist filth. Darrin From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon May 12 15:35:12 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:35:12 -0000 Subject: Binns and the COS (was Re: Professor Binns_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > > Binns is useless for relating this information, although it is his > job. The other characters have to stumble through to it themselves, > and it is little surprise that, compared to the strong authorial > voice, the series' official internal storyteller is reduced to > ghostly status. Two recent threads have concerned: (1) the death of Professor Binns, and (2) the staff's apparent ignorance of the entrance to the CoS. The two together triggered a new (to me) question. Why doesn't Binns believe in the CoS? IIRC, Binns is hounded by his students to tell more about the CoS, and while he is eventually willing to recount the legend, he dismisses it as something other than solid historical fact. But certainly Dumbledore and McGonagall believe in the existence of the CoS, and my sense is that several of the other professors do, too. So why not Binns? Ersatz Harry, who keeps on thinking he saw "Mimble Wimble" somewhere in post-PS/SS canon but whose mind is probably just contaminated by the CoS computer game From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 12 15:45:33 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:45:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and what it means to be a Slytherin was Re: We live stereotypes References: Message-ID: <001201c3189d$86eeb9b0$4accaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57663 Koticzka wrote: > Well, he is saving Harry's live in HP1 and protecting him after the > fatal Quddich match - hanging around Gryffs Trio all the time. This > is woay I liked this greasy git. Snape I mean. Too noble to be Slyth? On the contrary, I see Snape as the ultimate Slytherin. Let's revisit some of the traits of the House. From the Sorting Hat in PS/SS p. 118 US Hardcover, "Those cunning folk use any means to achieve their ends." From CoS p. 333 US Hardcover, "[Harry] happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift, Parseltongue - resourcefulness - determination - a certain disregard for rules." And from GoF p. 177 US Hardcover, "And power-hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition." Ok, let's forget about the Parseltongue bit, since 99.9% of all Slytherins don't possess this ability. What are we left with from what's above? Cunning, willing to do anything to achieve the desired outcome, resourceful, determined, not afraid to break rules, power-hungry, and ambitious This is Snape in spades. Personally, I think that if Snape was not this way, he would be dead by now, because it is these traits that allowed him to survive his defection during the last war with Voldemort. We have seen how resourceful and determined Snape can be (all the different people he follows to figure out what's going on with them). As much as Snape goes on about breaking rules, he sure isn't afraid to do so himself when he sees a benefit to it (following Lupin, for example). We have somewhat seen that he is willing to go to great lengths to achieve his goals (I see threatening Harry with the Veritaserum as part of this). This leaves us with cunning, power-hungry, and ambitious. I think the latter two things are part of the reason he joined the DE's to begin with, and it's the cunning that kept him alive when he decided to part ways with them. I'd just like to point out, for the record, that nowhere in this description is a requirement that all Slytherins be pure-blooded and prejudiced against Muggle-borns. Salazar Slytherin's personal preferences aside, I think those are things that got tacked onto the House later on, maybe by some Slytherins who made the House what they wanted it to be. I'm not saying Salazar would've approved, but I don't think those were requirements to get in. Snape again being an example, I have not seen him treat Muggle-borns any differently than purebloods. IMO, Hermione gets the crap she does from him because she is so smart, is a Gryffindor, and is Harry's friend. I've never perceived any of it coming because of her bloodline. And when Colin comes in to get Harry for picture-taking from Potions in GoF, Snape doesn't give Colin a hard time. What he says in that scene is about Harry, not about Colin. So, until I see evidence to the contrary, I don't see Snape as having that prejudice. As for his bloodline, it's easy to assume he's a pureblood, but we really don't know. We do know of one not-so-pureblood that got into Slytherin, but I don't know if Riddle counts since he is Slytherin's heir. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon May 12 15:50:02 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:50:02 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley, Professor of COMC? In-Reply-To: <008f01c3184a$1da672c0$f6570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > You know, if Hagrid does end up biting the dust in OoP, there'll be an > opening at Hogwarts for a Care of Magical Creatures professor, and > Charlie Weasley might just get the job. I don't recall any mention of the COMC position even existing until Hagrid was appointed to fill it, and so I was left with the impression that the position was created both to fill a need and to give Hagrid a more respectable job. Yet it seems to have been a required course rather than an elective; hard to imagine Draco Malfoy taking an elective course with "that oaf". Are there other references to the position itself that might help me figure this out? If Hagrid were indeed offed in OoP, would there be a need to fill the position? Of course, given the acronym COMC (awfully close to COMIC), I'm wondering if the position might eventually be filled by the Weasley twins after they graduate. Ersatz Harry, who is suddenly recalling Hagrid's disdain for Filch in PS/SS and wondering if there's a bit of history between them... From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 12 16:03:39 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:03:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Charlie Weasley, Professor of COMC? References: Message-ID: <001f01c318a0$0e364ee0$4accaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57665 Ersatz Harry wrote: > I don't recall any mention of the COMC position even existing until > Hagrid was appointed to fill it, and so I was left with the impression > that the position was created both to fill a need and to give Hagrid a > more respectable job. Yet it seems to have been a required course > rather than an elective; hard to imagine Draco Malfoy taking an > elective course with "that oaf". Are there other references to the > position itself that might help me figure this out? If Hagrid were > indeed offed in OoP, would there be a need to fill the position? > There was not a murmur in the Great Hall when Dumbledore announced that the previous COMC professor, Kettleburn, had retired to spend time with his remaining limbs. This implies to me that this class has been around for awhile. When Draco (and everyone else) signed up for this class, they had no clue it would be with Hagrid. As for why Draco continued to take the class the following year, maybe he thought it'd be fun to see if there would be another way for him to get Hagrid sacked. And he doesn't have to work as hard in this class like he might in something like Arithmancy (of course, he could be taking that class instead of Divination). Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 12 16:17:11 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:17:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clue for the "ancient protection?" References: Message-ID: <002601c318a1$f24dc490$4accaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57666 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" > > > > >>> I did wonder about how well Harry would've been protected had he > been being watched by Marge or Yvonne. If Petunia knew they would > be incapable of protecting him, I find it interesting that she would > not just say so to Vernon. If she isn't saying so to Vernon, then > there is at least one thing she is keeping from him. I'd love to > know what else she knows but hasn't told anyone, even her husband. > Because for some reason, I find it hard to believe that the > protection would extend so far as to one of Petunia's Muggle > friends, even if Petunia did entrust Harry to her care.<<< > Ali: > I agree with you that Petunia does know more than she's letting on, > and I also like to imagine that Petunia is being this horrible and > abusive to Harry because it is for his own good. However, the > evidence is that she didn't like him and what he stood for even > before she met him, and her future behaviour is in line with that > feeling. It certainly seems plausible that the hate surrounding > Harry contributes to his protection, just as Lily's love did. > Kelly (me): No argument here. Petunia does not like Harry. One line you said did stand out to me: "Petunia is being this horrible and abusive to Harry because it is for his own good." Sounds like arguments I've seen before for Snape's behavior. Snape also hates Harry. Doesn't mean he won't protect him with his life. Perhaps Petunia is much the same way. I'm not even going to speculate on hatred being a part of the protection, because I have no idea. Ali: > Harry has been allowed to be by himself - after the London Zoo > incident when he's finally allowed out of his cupboard, he walks > round outside, by himself to escape Dudley and his gang. I think > that Harry does still have residual protection when he is away from > his family, but it reduces over time. Kelly (me): How far away from home does Harry go, though? We never hear about him going clear to the other end of town, for instance. I'm sure DD took into account that Harry might go outside to play sometimes when preparing the protection for Harry. That's not the same as leaving him home by himself for a couple of hours while the Dursleys go to the zoo, which could be quite a ways away, much farther away than Harry wanders when outside. Ali: > > The key thing about Dudley's birthday is that, it is illegal for > kids to be left home alone under the age of 12 - and Harry was only > 10. The Dursleys are keen to be seen to law-abiding. From the > Dursleys viewpoint Harry is a danger. A house has been blown up > around him, he dyes his teacher's wig blue and he regrows his own > hair. He is a danger in himself and a magnet for trouble. He must > not be left alone in anything the Dursleys value. He can though, go > outside by himself. Kelly (me): Good point, and this could be another factor in their decision. But I still think Petunia's word choice should not be ignored. She specifically mentions coming back and finding the house in ruins. She does not say, "And come back and find out you've blown up the house?" The first statement just gives a potential state for the house, but does not say that Harry will be the one to destroy the house. If she had said the latter, then it would have shown she was afraid Harry's powers might escape him and he might blow up the house for some reason. I think her word choice in that section was key. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 12 16:10:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:10:20 -0000 Subject: How did Harry close the witch? In-Reply-To: <131.1e6cd41d.2bef324e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > > ...edited... > > My question is: how did the witch's hump close? Harry puts his bag > in, and then Neville comes. Does the door just shut itself after a > few minutes? Or does someone have to shut it themselves? > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ bboy_mn: My impression was that it closed itself in a very short period of time. Let's take another example - (to the best of my memory) When you go into Dumbledore's office tower, you say the password, the gargoyle jumps down off his stand, and a door opens to the moving escalator-type stair case. But we never hear of anyone closing the door or telling the gargoyle to get back into place. So my guess is that they both work like the automatic doors you see in muggle commercial buildings, as long as you stand poised to enter the doorway, the door remains open and waiting. As soon as you step through, it closes again. That is, the witch's hump closes, and in Dumbledore's case, the door closes and the gargoyle takes his place again. Notice that Harry stepped away from the witch as soon as he saw Neville coming. We can assume that that was both to draw Neville's attention away from the witch and to force the door/hump to close automatically. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 12 16:28:45 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:28:45 -0000 Subject: Snape and what it means to be a Slytherin was Re: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: <001201c3189d$86eeb9b0$4accaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57668 Kelly wrote: > I'd just like to point out, for the record, that nowhere in this description > is a requirement that all Slytherins be pure-blooded and prejudiced against > Muggle-borns. Salazar Slytherin's personal preferences aside, I think those > are things that got tacked onto the House later on, maybe by some Slytherins who made the House what they wanted it to be. I'm not saying Salazar would've approved, but I don't think those were requirements to get in. At some point, I believe Snape did hate Muggle-Borns. Now, whether this is a "go along" philosophy with the gang of Slyths he ran with or something he truly felt, I think he did. He WAS a DE, after all, and was willingly one for some time, before he turned. Again, I find it hard to believe the DEs were anything but pure-blood mudblood haters, or at least able to fake it really, really well. Now, something could very well have changed that attitude -- Maybe he just grew up -- and he might not have that prejudice now. My guess as to why he turned is that he was ordered to do something he didn't want to do -- maybe kill a muggle-born he didn't want to kill... say someone named after a flower starting with the letter "L"? OR, he could still have that prejudice, but is more of the "So long as they don't live on my side of the street, I don't care what they do" variety rather than the "kill them all" variety. Snape again being an example, I have not seen him treat Muggle-borns any > differently than purebloods. IMO, Hermione gets the crap she does from him because she is so smart, is a Gryffindor, and is Harry's friend. I've never > perceived any of it coming because of her bloodline. No, we don't definitely know it's because she's Muggle-born, although I think Snape might be aware that Draco and the gang watch how he treats her and may make that assumption. But again, this could all be Snape's cover. Darrin From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Mon May 12 14:00:18 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:00:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrids parents-How did they do *it* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57669 Mecki asks a very good question: >Hi all! > Rereading GoF for the millionth time, a question occured. > > Hagrid is a half-giant- Giantess-mother and wizard-father. > My question: how does this work? Imagine the size differences! > > My answer: Golly, great (?) minds think alike. I was wondering the exact same thing. When I asked my husband for his opinion he sort of looked at me like I was losing my mind and said "It IS a children's book!" That led to another argument altogether. I guess the best I can say is that perhaps the WW has a lock on all of those,er,"procedures" I keep getting spammed with in my email. You know, enlargements, etc. Hey, come to think of it, perhaps Harry's gold comes from some Nigerian despot.... Mycropht From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Mon May 12 16:09:45 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:09:45 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley, Professor of COMC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57670 "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > You know, if Hagrid does end up biting the dust in OoP, there'll be an > > opening at Hogwarts for a Care of Magical Creatures professor, and > > Charlie Weasley might just get the job. Ersatz Harry" wrote: > I don't recall any mention of the COMC position even existing until > Hagrid was appointed to fill it, and so I was left with the impression > that the position was created both to fill a need and to give Hagrid a > more respectable job. Yet it seems to have been a required course > rather than an elective; hard to imagine Draco Malfoy taking an > elective course with "that oaf". Are there other references to the > position itself that might help me figure this out? If Hagrid were > indeed offed in OoP, would there be a need to fill the position? now bowlwoman: In PoA (US hardback, page 92): >>> "As to our second new appointment," Dumbledore continued as the lukewarm applause for Professor Lupin died away. "Well, I am sorry to tell you that Professor Kettleburn, our Care of Magical Creatures teacher, retired at the end of last year in order to enjoy more time with his remaining limbs. However, I am delighted to say that his place will be filled by none other than Rubeus Hagrid, who has agreed to take on this teaching job in addition to his gamekeeping duties." <<<< I always read the COMC class (Divination, Arithmancy, among others) to be subjects that only 3rd years and above could take. This explains why we haven't been introduced to it before (why would Harry mention classes he wasn't taking?) I always assumed it was required, but it is possible it's only an elective. bowlwoman From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Mon May 12 14:26:05 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:26:05 -0400 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57671 Hey there. I'm new but have lurked for awhile. I certainly don't mean to step on anyone's toes, but it seems to me that there are a large number of theories regarding the resolution of this story which involve time travel. I call my theory "Not Really". Now Obviously Time Resolves Everything Although its Literarily LazY. In short, we could postulate that time travel would result in all of these "I'm My Own Grandpa" scenarios that would be Shocking! and Thrilling! and Utterly Ridiculous! I am of the impression that JKR is first and foremost a story teller. Not a Star Trek writer. She uses best-loved elements of myth, folklore, mystery plays, modern romance and Tolkien. I think that she has used time travel as one device in one book. She's been such a clever story teller for so long that I don't see her returning to that particular Deux Ex Machina to "solve" her overall story. At least I hope not. I've already been cruelly duped by George Lucas and his The Universe Is One Big Happy Family B.S. I'd like for the HP universe to be something more than Hagrid travelling back in time to hatch V from a dragon's egg as a pet for Salazar Slytherin. Respectfully, Mycropht From petalla at express56.com Mon May 12 14:50:39 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:50:39 -0000 Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: <1a0.14bfe922.2bf0884c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57672 > And the Serpensortia spell was Snape's idea . Am I missing something? (Besides half of my mind at this point? - Gotta love this time of year-grading-ARG). I've re-read this chapter of CoS, and I am not sure where the idea comes from that Serpensortia was Snape's idea. We don't know much about Draco (well he is an irritating, nosey, and calous twit). We we do know that his family (at least Daddy) serves Voldy. It could be that the youngest Malfoy has the knowledge of curses and hexes all on his own without the help of Snape. ~~~~~~~Peggy From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Mon May 12 17:03:58 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:03:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion References: Message-ID: <00e501c318a8$7b3ddcd0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57673 Peggy wrote: > Am I missing something? (Besides half of my mind at this point? - > Gotta love this time of year-grading-ARG). I've re-read this chapter > of CoS, and I am not sure where the idea comes from that Serpensortia > was Snape's idea. Now i don't have my book in front of me, but i distinctly remember Snape whispering something into Draco's ear right before he casts the Serpensortia spell. So i, assumingly along with many others, believe that he told Draco to do this. ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 12 17:15:10 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:15:10 -0000 Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57674 Peggy: > > And the Serpensortia spell was Snape's idea . > > Am I missing something? (Besides half of my mind at this point? - > Gotta love this time of year-grading-ARG). I've re-read this chapter > of CoS, and I am not sure where the idea comes from that Serpensortia > was Snape's idea. We don't know much about Draco (well he is an > irritating, nosey, and calous twit). We we do know that his family > (at least Daddy) serves Voldy. It could be that the youngest Malfoy > has the knowledge of curses and hexes all on his own without the help > of Snape. > Snape whispered something in Malfoy's ear just before he cast the Serpensortia spell. Have to believe it was the spell. Now, was this what Snape had in mind all along, for Harry to reveal that he was a Parselmouth? Hard to tell. I've never been a MAGIC DISHWASHER kind of guy, mainly because I resist the idea of omniscience in any character, even Dumbledore, and because I think it takes away from, not adds to, the Snape character, by taking away some of the grey shades that everyone loves. It is reasonable to surmise that Dumbledore suspected, or knew, Harry was a Parselmouth. His theory about V-Mort transferring some power to Harry is one thing. It is possible the Dursleys told Mrs. Figg about Dudley getting trapped in the snake cage at the zoo, which she might have reported to D-Dore. Now, does it follow that he ordered Snape to reveal it in that fashion? Possible, but I doubt it. I don't see D-Dore wanting Snape to do it in such a way that ostracizes Harry from the entire school. Now, maybe D-Dore just told Snape to put Harry in a stressful position involving a snake -- who better to do so? -- and see if the Parselmouth came out. Snape just chose, for reasons of his own, to do it in front of the school. Perhaps there was a bit of hell to pay between D-Dore and Snape over that stunt. One could see Snape saying, "But Headmaster, I did what you wanted. Why are you upset?" Darrin From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 17:26:26 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the letter, a time turner, good slyth, post school harry and the sorting hat In-Reply-To: <20030512091714.97295.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030512172626.29456.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57675 --- Anita Sathe wrote: > *If Arthur > Weasley insists that we not trust anything if we can't see where it > keeps its brains (CoS), how come the school sorting hat is given such a > huge responsiblity of sorting students and producing weapons in an > emergency like the sword The actual line is don't trust anything that can think for itself if you don't *know* where it keeps its brain, not *see*. Presumably Dumbledore and Headmasters of the past know exactly where the Hat's brain is and know to trust it. ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 12 17:30:12 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512173012.3373.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57676 --- peggy wrote: > > And the Serpensortia spell was Snape's idea . > > Am I missing something? (Besides half of my > mind at this point? - > Gotta love this time of year-grading-ARG). > I've re-read this chapter > of CoS, and I am not sure where the idea comes > from that Serpensortia > was Snape's idea. "Snape moved closer to Malfoy, bent down and whispered something in his ear. Malfoy smirked too. (CoS, p. 145, UK) It's these two sentences that gave me the idea that the spell was Snape's idea. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From patricia at obscure.org Mon May 12 17:39:28 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Would Hagrid be considered a half-blood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57677 On Mon, 12 May 2003, bowlwoman wrote: > Do the terms pure-blood, half-blood and mudblood refer to the > wizarding community when talking only about their heritage with > Muggles, or does it also refer to children of wizards and non- > Muggle/non-wizard folk? > > Specifically, I'm asking if Hagrid (and possibly Madame Maxime) would > be considered a half-blood because he had one parent who was a wizard > and one who was a giant. The references I've seen define "half- > blood" as a wizard/witch of mixed parentage with one of those parents > being a MUGGLE. Hagrid's other parent wasn't a Muggle, she was a > giant. Would these terms then still apply to him or is this all a > mute point because giants are so feared and shunned in the WW that > the fact Hagrid is half giant negates the whole issue (he's at the > bottom of the totem pole anyway). Hagrid certainly isn't a pureblood (having a witch and a wizard as parents) and he certainly isn't a mudblood, or muggle-born if you're polite (having two muggles as parents). But I really don't know whether cross-bred witches and wizards count as half-bloods or are their own separate category. My personal feeling is that not-strictly-human witches and wizards would generally fall in their own category. The purebloodists seem primarily prejudiced against muggles and wizards with muggle connections. Whether a cross-bred wizard would be stigmatized would depend on just which magical creature they are descended from, i.e. giants are stigmatized, therefore half-giants are as well; veela are not stigmatized, therefore half-veela are not either. > I don't know if any other inter-species breeding (man, that sounds so > callous!) has occured or will occur in the WW, but I would love to > see the impact it has on the purity of blood question. We do know of one other person who is not entirely human. Fleur Delacour (and presumably her little sister as well) is at least one-quarter veela, since she tells Ollivander that the veela hair in her wand came from her grandmother. We haven't seen anyone make reference to the purity of her blood, but there doesn't seem to be nearly as much stigma against being part-veela as there is against being part-giant. Fleur certainly has no problem telling a room full of people, including a reporter, about her veela heritage, and in fact I thought she seemed rather proud of her grandmother in that scene. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From artsylynda at aol.com Mon May 12 17:42:23 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:42:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups]Adopted!Harry Message-ID: <105.2e59380e.2bf136ff@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57678 In a message dated 5/12/2003 9:50:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Harry thinks he's heard the name Tom Riddle before, as if > it were something from when he was very young; could you say where you read this? I don't remember it. Thanks. Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Mon May 12 17:47:30 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:47:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adopted!Harry Message-ID: <170.1e82ad82.2bf13832@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57679 In a message dated 5/12/2003 9:50:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Eventually, Harry will come around, but it will be a very, very > difficult moment. > > P.S. I have a continuation of my theory that involves the end of the > series and the night J&L died, but enough is enough for now. > Your ideas are interesting, and I can see poor Harry being willing to kill himself when he kills Voldemort -- if he kills Voldemort, then Harry, too, will die, right? Yikes. Interesting concept you've come up with -- it will be interesting to see if JKR is heading that direction (I sure hope she doesn't kill off Harry -- I want her to continue the series past book 7!!!) So what are the rest of your theories? And if you have enough time to come up with these ideas, could you possibly come weed my garden? ;-> I seem to be spending too much time TRYING to keep up with these boards and not enough time weeding the flowerbeds. . . . Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Mon May 12 18:23:17 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:23:17 -0000 Subject: Rowling's Roster System (Was: Re: "Good Slyth" (was: stereotypes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57680 Jo Serendust wrote: > Actually the screen grabs only show the top and bottom halves of the > same page. You are right that the empty circle=female, filled > box=male is consistent for this one page. I just have a hard time > believing that JKR needs to use one entire column to keep track of > the genders of the student. Except for the androgynous Blaise Z. > and *possibly* Tracey Davis, their respective sex is apparent from > their names. It just seems to me that these symbols must be more > significant than that. Alice writes: Actually I thought of a possible (though maybe not all too probable) reason for there being a column for the gender of the students... as far as we know there seem to be about 5 girls and 5 boys in each house in each year (there is, of course, the old debate about the number of students in Hogwarts...) - when constructing these classes it might have been useful to keep track of how many girls/boys JKR had so far "invented". Although this is at least a *reason* (because otherwise surely one would know the gender of a student, as Serenadust points out, directly from the name), it's not a very strong one. But I myself occasionally keep track of things with little symbols just to make things simpler. It's easier to find the girls quickly if there's a symbol. Love, Alice From SteveLaBny at aol.com Mon May 12 17:32:54 2003 From: SteveLaBny at aol.com (SteveLaBny at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:32:54 EDT Subject: Adopted!Harry is Really TTTR Message-ID: <195.1a2968c3.2bf134c6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57681 "asandhp" said a whole lot which can be summed up as >>The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for Harry to be Voldemort himself.<< YES! First, about me: new to the list, only lurking a few days, think I just sent out a blank message by accident that I hope the mods will catch, read all 4 books right before the 1st movie. My girlfriend is a huge HP fan and is going down to the symposium so I'm coming too. Am rereading the books now, keeping some notes for myself, trying to find the hidden clues and flesh out my own theories before book 5 and the symposium. Now, on to your theory: Again I say YES. I agree. I've been saying this all along. HP and LV are one and the same. Haven't pieced together the hows and whys as well as you have with your theory BUT I agree that it makes perfect sense as the conclusion that this is all building towards. Part of my reasoning is that there will definitely be someone who is a "good guy" joining the bad guys, at least for one of the books. Anyone besides the trio would not have the same impact. I don't think Hermione has it in her, and Ron is the all too obvious choice to turn on Harry. So following JK's usual path, I think Harry is definitely the one who is going to go "bad", probably for book 6, and probably for reasons along the lines of you P.S. Book 5 happens, someone close to Harry dies, Dumbledore comes clean with almost everything he knows, and Harry just stops at the end of book 5 or early book 6 and says "OK, I've had enough, I don't trust you guys anymore, you lie,you get my friends killed, you don't help anything. I'm just gonna test the other side out." I have other reasons why I think Harry will go bad too, (like his overuse of the word HATE, never a good sign) but the main reasoning underneath it all is that HARRY=LV. so you have at least one supporter. steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca Mon May 12 18:04:49 2003 From: Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca (shihtouji) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:04:49 -0000 Subject: Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" > > > > >>> I did wonder about how well Harry would've been protected had he > been being watched by Marge or Yvonne. If Petunia knew they would > be incapable of protecting him, I find it interesting that she would > not just say so to Vernon. If she isn't saying so to Vernon, then > there is at least one thing she is keeping from him. I'd love to > know what else she knows but hasn't told anyone, even her husband. > Because for some reason, I find it hard to believe that the > protection would extend so far as to one of Petunia's Muggle > friends, even if Petunia did entrust Harry to her care.<<< > Hello to all--my first post to list! This may be a minor point, but it fuelled my Petunia-is-squib idea for a while (I've now disposed of it, thanks to this list), and may be relevant to this thread: I can't seem to find too many instances where Petunia actively abuses Harry--much of the blustering and meanness come from Vernon or Dudley. Petunia is certainly complicit in their brutality, and is certainly no friend of Harry's, but she stands by rather passively while her husband and son do the active torturing. I don't think this is Petunia's maternal instinct kicking in: she has no qualms about putting him in wretched clothing or nearly starving him. I wonder whether she's all that thrilled about abusing Harry, but is unable to stand up to her husband and far too involved with her Diddydums to risk shaking up the family. But yes, her silence is intriguing... Does she, for example, know the truth about Mrs Figg? I believe she does. She no doubt would have been the principal child-care arranger for Harry; if so, it begs the question why the appearance-obsessed Dursleys, who are mortified to have the Weasleys even come to the house to fetch Harry, would choose such an obvious eccentric as Mrs Figg to be his babysitter? Yes, I know Dumbledore might have left explicit instructions to that effect in the secret letter, but if the Dursleys really are as intent as they say they are at stamping out Harry's magicalness, then putting Harry in the care of a known witch would be the last thing they would choose to do. I wonder, then, if Petunia, while no fan of the WW herself, nevertheless is less vehement in her rejection of the WW,to the point where she would even risk having Harry in contact with a witch. Or, along the same lines, is Petunia only going along with Vernon's apoplectic anti-wizarding sentiments to a point: Harry is, after all, her blood-relative, not Vernon's, and blood does seem to be so important in the HP books, after all. "Noel" From KLMF at aol.com Mon May 12 18:26:10 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (KLMF at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:26:10 EDT Subject: New(?) observations..... Message-ID: <129.29d5ec59.2bf14142@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57683 Hello List, While I have nothing profound to add to any of the current threads (which, by the way I'm enjoying thoroughly!) , I do have a couple observations I'd like to throw out to the List...They are kind of minor and nitpicky, but I'm seeing that even the most innocent detail may in the end hold great significance. My _extreme_ apologies if this has already been discussed ad nauseum.... First, I think it kind of an interesting coincidence that the very match in PoA that the Slytherins backed out of (claiming Draco's arm injury) is the very same match that the Dementors decide to pay a visit. Was it really the high spirits of the people attending the match that lured them to it, or was it a tip or a push from another party? After all, it was by then common knowledge that Harry was susceptible to the power of the Dementors. What a great way to get rid of Harry and make it look like an accident.... Second,a contradiction----in CoS we see the start of a "dueling club", yet in GoF, Percy is quoted (American version, pg. 425)"...And then we've been trying to persuade the Transylvanians to sign the International Ban on Dueling. I've got a meeting with their Head of Magical Cooperation in the new year--". Now, there's dueling and there's Dueling. I assume that there is a difference between sport dueling (Like muggle fencing) and dueling to do harm or to kill? Nothing is clarified in the canon. Thirdly, and this is probably as meaningless as I first assumed it, is the dog references. Not the Sirius Black or Grim kind of dog references, but references specifically to dog breeders and show dogs.....respectively, Aunt Marge and as a bulldog breeder, and then Parvati in the quote in GoF (American, page 415) "Harry concentrated on not tripping over his feet. Parvati seemed to be enjoying herself; she was beaming around at everybody, steering Harry so forcefully that he felt as though he were a show dog she was putting through its paces." This only attracted my attention since I do breed dogs and do occassionally show them.....I don't know if the general public in the UK is more aware of the dog fancy...in the US the general public knows very little about it. References to the Dog Fancy, especially (more or less) accurate ones, are almost unheard of. In the HP series, one reference made to it for illustrative purpose I could see ....but twice? Either JKR has some actual firsthand knowledge or experience with the Fancy from which she draws for descriptive purposes, or maybe there's some kind of link between Parvati and Aunt Marge...? It's probably all just a meaningless coincidence, but I found it curious none-the-less... Karen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 19:07:41 2003 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (Susan Snow) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512190741.42414.qmail@web41301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57684 --- shihtouji wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly > Grosskreutz" > > > > > > If Petunia > knew they would > > be incapable of protecting him, I find it > interesting that she > would > > not just say so to Vernon. If she isn't saying so > to Vernon, then > > there is at least one thing she is keeping from > him. I'd love to > > know what else she knows but hasn't told anyone, > even her husband. > > > Hello to all--my first post to list! > > I can't seem to find too > many instances > where Petunia actively abuses Harry--much of the > blustering and > meanness come from Vernon or Dudley. > > > > Or, along the same lines, is Petunia only going > along with Vernon's > apoplectic anti-wizarding sentiments to a point: > Harry is, after all, > her blood-relative, not Vernon's, and blood does > seem to be so > important in the HP books, after all. > > "Noel" > > ME now: I have been following this thread and I seem to have gotten a different inmpression of Petunia. In PS/SS in the first chapter Vernon is upset by the wierd people but not apoplectic. Vernon seemed more worried about Petunia's reaction. It almost seemed like he feared her reaction. He started to dial home from work and decided not too. Then after he got home he still didn't tell her everything he had heard that day. In fact he only asked what the childs name was. Vernon is the more physical of the two but I have seen many couples where the one that is generally disliked but more people tend to be put up to being rude etc. by the more unreasonble "quiet" spouse. Just my thoughts. I have started rereading the books so everthing is fresh for the 21st. I will watch closely the Petunia / Vernon treatment of Harry. Snowwy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 12 19:30:09 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:30:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dueling Club (Was: New(?) observations.....) Message-ID: <1a4.1449737f.2bf15041@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57685 KLMF at aol.com writes: > Second,a contradiction----in CoS we see the start of a "dueling club", yet > in > GoF, Percy is quoted (American version, pg. 425)"...And then we've been > trying to persuade the Transylvanians to sign the International Ban on > Dueling. I've got a meeting with their Head of Magical Cooperation in the > new year--". Now, there's dueling and there's Dueling. I assume that there > > is a difference between sport dueling (Like muggle fencing) and dueling to > do > harm or to kill? Nothing is clarified in the canon. I suspect you have put your finger on the major distinction. The dueling club that Lockhart tried to form would be a sport along the lines of the Muggle sport of fencing. The dueling that the International Ban deals with are probably to-the-death things that leave blast marks in the grass and otherwise attract the attention of Muggle authorities. There is also mention of Lockhart "starting" the dueling club, not "reestablishing" or "reforming" it. This tends to indicate that even sport dueling has been out of fashion at Hogwarts, for some time (both Flitwick and Snape have dueling experience, so it must have been popular in the past). The part that gets me is that, once the Dueling Club has served it's seriocomic purpose, it is never mentioned again. Just what do the students who aren't on the Quidditch team DO when they're not in class or studying? -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon May 12 19:44:30 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:44:30 -0000 Subject: Binns and the COS (was Re: Professor Binns_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57686 Ersatz wrote: > Why doesn't Binns believe in the CoS? > > IIRC, Binns is hounded by his students to tell more about the CoS, and > while he is eventually willing to recount the legend, he dismisses it > as something other than solid historical fact. But certainly > Dumbledore and McGonagall believe in the existence of the CoS, and my > sense is that several of the other professors do, too. So why not Binns? Because Binns deals with solid, verifiable facts. There is, previous to CoS, no proof that the Chamber exists, only rumors, and therefore Binns does not believe in it. Dumbledore is certainly not of this mindset, as he has readily believed several scenarios (Harry's account of Voldemort's rise, Sirius' innocence,etc.) without solid proof. McGonagall too tends to remain open-minded regarding rumors. Of course, we know very little about Binns' personality. But what we have been shown reveals a very skeptical person (well, ghost). Dumbledore and McGonagall hear the stories of the Chamber, match this with their knowledge of history, and accept that the Chamber may eactually exist. Binns maintains that it is a rumor until proven otherwise. -Corinth From dan_m_s2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 12 19:22:26 2003 From: dan_m_s2000 at yahoo.co.uk (Daniel) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:22:26 -0000 Subject: Binns and the COS (was Re: Professor Binns_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57687 As you said, it is difficult to understand why Professor Binns discounts the legend of the Chamber of Secrets, but surely this tells you something about his character. To me it suggests that he is an ignorant old ghost, fed up of death who has to see something to believe it. As he says himself in the book, he is a history teacher who only deals in fact. This is a short summary of his character but it also tells you why he doesnt believe in the Chamber: he's never seen it and therefore in his mind it doesnt exist! Dan! From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon May 12 20:03:19 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:03:19 -0000 Subject: Dueling Club (Was: New(?) observations.....) In-Reply-To: <1a4.1449737f.2bf15041@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: The dueling that the International Ban deals with are probably to-the-death things that leave blast marks in the grass and otherwise attract the attention of Muggle authorities. and I agree citing: "...wizards have been forbidden to settle their differences by magical means, because it caused a lot of trouble for the population at large and in any case it was often difficult to tell which of the resultant patches of smoking fat had been the winner." --Terry Pratchett (of course) *Sourcery* Pg. 19: US softcover It's fairly obvious given the description of both Snape and Lockhart's actions during their demonstration (ha!) that this duel is sport (ha Ha!) not along the lines of "I demand satisfaction!" (haHaHA!) Mel From probono at rapidnet.com Mon May 12 20:08:23 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:08:23 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley, Professor of COMC? In-Reply-To: <008f01c3184a$1da672c0$f6570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57689 "Eric Oppen" wrote: > You know, if Hagrid does end up biting the dust in OoP, there'll be an > opening at Hogwarts for a Care of Magical Creatures professor, and Charlie > Weasley might just get the job. > > I don't know whether teaching at Hogwarts is considered a Step Up or a Step > Down, but particularly with V'mort back, once Hagrid's gone the Weasleys > might very well want one of their number who's a fully trained wizard on > deck at H'warts to keep an eye on Ron and Ginny (and, of course, Harry). > > If poor Ron thought things were rough when his older brother was Head Boy, > imagine having to call his older brother "Professor Weasley!" *snicker* Me: Good point. My money has been on Hagrid at least being MIA in book five, if not being offed completely. My only problem was the big gap that Hagrid's absence would create. Filling it will Charlie Weasley would be an excellent solution. (Woohoo! Waiting for the money to roll in). But you know, I've always wondered whether Bill was once a teacher at Hogwarts. Didn't he mention at the end of GoF something along the lines of being back for the first time in 'five years'? Doesn't match up with his graduation date, so he must have been at Hogwarts for another reason. -Tanya (who sadly can no longer keep up with all the brilliant posts here *snif*) From artsylynda at aol.com Mon May 12 20:23:34 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:23:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's parents -- how did they do it? Message-ID: <195.1a2b702d.2bf15cc6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57690 In a message dated 5/12/2003 3:11:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > >Rereading GoF for the millionth time, a question occured. > > > >Hagrid is a half-giant- Giantess-mother and wizard-father. > >My question: how does this work? Imagine the size differences! > > > > > My answer: > > Golly, great (?) minds think alike. I was wondering the exact same thing. > When I asked my husband for his opinion he sort of looked at me like I was > losing my mind and said "It IS a children's book!" Well, if you don't mind some horse-breeding information here -- it's important that the mother was the larger one, okay? You can cross ponies with draft horses, Chiuhuahua's with Great Danes (it can be done, scary as it sounds) but the mother darned well better be the larger of the two for safety of delivery, and her size also impacts the size of the baby (which is good for the mother's sake!). If, perchance (and scientists have done this with draft horses and ponies), the smaller one is the mother, the baby gets its size determined by the mother, so it will be larger than a normal pony, but still pony sized -- so if Hagrid's mom had been the human, he would've been somewhat bigger than a normal human -- maybe professional basketball player height. If the mother is the draft horse, the baby will be a bit smaller than a normal draft horse, but still a draft horse in size and type -- so Hagrid's mom being the giantess, and his dad human, Hagrid came out smaller than a normal giant (9 feet tall instead of 20, if I recall correctly??). These are generalities, but they've been scientifically proven -- I just can't quote the source, it's been years since I read the articles about it. On the "how to" -- where there's a will, there's a way! I once trained a 13 hand (pony size) *gorgeous* palomino half-Arab stallion. At some point, he decided an 18 hand (very very tall) very homely, big-eared liver chestnut mare was "hot stuff" and he just stood on a hill, with her in a dip, and did his thing. The result was the only colt he ever had (a boy -- all the rest were fillies -- girls), and it was pretty for the most part but had the mare's horribly huge ears and not very pretty coloring, poor little thing. Hagrid is a result of similar "determination" between the parents, I do believe. ;-> Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Mon May 12 20:25:32 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:25:32 -0000 Subject: New(?) observations..... In-Reply-To: <129.29d5ec59.2bf14142@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57691 >Karen wrote: > Thirdly, and this is probably as meaningless as I first assumed it, is the > dog references. Not the Sirius Black or Grim kind of dog references, but > references specifically to dog breeders and show dogs.....respectively, Aunt > Marge and as a bulldog breeder, and then Parvati in the quote in GoF > (American, page 415) "Harry concentrated on not tripping over his feet. > Parvati seemed to be enjoying herself; she was beaming around at everybody, > steering Harry so forcefully that he felt as though he were a show dog she > was putting through its paces." This only attracted my attention since I do > breed dogs and do occassionally show them.....I don't know if the general > public in the UK is more aware of the dog fancy...in the US the general > public knows very little about it. References to the Dog Fancy, especially > (more or less) accurate ones, are almost unheard of. In the HP series, one > reference made to it for illustrative purpose I could see ....but twice? > Either JKR has some actual firsthand knowledge or experience with the Fancy > from which she draws for descriptive purposes, or maybe there's some kind of > link between Parvati and Aunt Marge...? It's probably all just a meaningless > coincidence, but I found it curious none-the-less... Me: I don't exactly know what you mean by the term "dog fancy". I guess because I'm American! lol! There were some other dog-like references IIRC. I believe Millicent Bulstrode was described as "pug-faced" once and Vernon as "bearing down on Harry like a great bulldog, all his teeth bared." But these references might not be what you mean by "dog fancy". But one thing I noticed from my very first read is a passage in which Harry had accidently stepped on the tail of one of Aunt Marge's dogs and it chased him up a tree. I found this so odd since Marge bred bulldogs and by golly it is near impossible to step on the tail of a bulldog! Heck, I'd go as far as saying it *IS* impossible to step on a bulldog's tail, given it's sort of a squat, kinky little pigtail thing. But, perhaps that's because I'm American and I'm confusing what Americans call English Bulldogs with what the English actually consider a true Bulldog? Perhaps it's a different breed entirely? Maybe somebody could clear this up for me? -Tanya From artsylynda at aol.com Mon May 12 20:29:29 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:29:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] the Dueling Club Message-ID: <4f.2eb66a24.2bf15e29@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57692 Darrin writes: > Now, maybe D-Dore just told Snape to put Harry in a stressful > position involving a snake -- who better to do so? -- and see if the > Parselmouth came out. Snape just chose, for reasons of his own, to do > it in front of the school. Perhaps there was a bit of hell to pay > between D-Dore and Snape over that stunt. > Dumbledore "doesn't miss a trick" and knew Harry was at the Weasley's when Harry had just arrived. He knew when Harry moved from "The Cupboard under the Stairs" to "The Smallest Bedroom" to "The Floor, Hut-by-the-Sea" (all addresses on Harry's first letters from Hogwart's). Harry spoke Parsletongue to the snake in the zoo -- I suspect D. knew about this and had no reason to "force" Harry to expose his being a Parselmouth, certainly not in front of the school. D isn't into embarrassing Harry. I don't think Snape knew Harry was a Parselmouth either -- I think Draco, or Snape, one or the other, chose a snake because it is the symbol for their house. JMO Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon May 12 20:30:36 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:30:36 -0000 Subject: The 12 uses of Dumbledore's omniscience In-Reply-To: <20030512124520.12488.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57693 > --- errolowl wrote: > > doesn't know the extents > of > > his own castle, has > > no control over the actions of mean or cowardly > > people, and either > > can't see or can't fix all the loopholes in his > > school's > > defenses.And there's more where that came from. > > To which Lynn objected. I hope Errol doesn't mind me jumping in: > How do you know > Dumbledore doesn't know the extent of the castle? Because he says so himself in GoF. I don't remember the exact occasion, but Harry hears Dumbledore tell someone over dinner that there are rooms in the castle that he doesn't know, and gives for example the room full of bedpans which he found once and has never been able to find again. > What do you mean he has no control over the > actions of mean or cowardly people Quirrel, Lockhart, to a certain extent Snape, Bagman, Karkaroff, Crouch Jr. All hatched dastardly plans and carried them out right under Dumbledore's oversized nose. or can't see > or fix loopholes? Well, he couldn't get Harry out of being a Triwizard champion, could he? Abigail From lumos28 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 20:17:20 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (Anita Sathe) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the letter, a time turner, good slyth, post school harry Message-ID: <20030512201720.96014.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57694 >The actual line is don't trust anything that can think for itself if you >don't *know* where it keeps its brain, not *see*. Presumably >Dumbledore >and Headmasters of the past know exactly where the Hat's brain is and >know >to trust it. Thanks for that, Andrea...I should be reading more thoroughly.. But I do wonder: what else can the sorting hat do? It is very smart of course, sorting students and producing swords and all. But we didn't see much of it after CoS...maybe it'll turn up later? I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of it yet. Wonder what it'll come up with the next time. -Anita --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dan_m_s2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 12 19:30:40 2003 From: dan_m_s2000 at yahoo.co.uk (Daniel) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:30:40 -0000 Subject: Adopted!Harry is Really TTTR In-Reply-To: <195.1a2968c3.2bf134c6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57695 Interesting concept but it doesnt explain why Voldemort tried to kill Harry and did kill Harry's parents. If they are "one and the same" why would he do this. I am open to suggestions, it seems quite an interesting topic! Dan! From flenser at hotmail.com Mon May 12 20:46:47 2003 From: flenser at hotmail.com (fauxwen) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:46:47 -0000 Subject: Adopted!Harry is Really TTTR In-Reply-To: <195.1a2968c3.2bf134c6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SteveLaBny at a... wrote: > "asandhp" said a whole lot which can be summed up as > > > >>The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for > Harry to be Voldemort himself.<< > But how do you explain the fact that Harry was able to pull Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat? Remember, "only a true Gryffindor ..." etc.? From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Mon May 12 20:57:56 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (newdella) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:57:56 -0000 Subject: Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: <001501c31846$2feb8f50$97ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > > I did wonder about how well Harry would've been protected had he been being > watched by Marge or Yvonne. If Petunia knew they would be incapable of > protecting him, I find it interesting that she would not just say so to > Vernon. If she isn't saying so to Vernon, then there is at least one thing > she is keeping from him. I'd love to know what else she knows but hasn't > told anyone, even her husband. Because for some reason, I find it hard to > believe that the protection would extend so far as to one of Petunia's > Muggle friends, even if Petunia did entrust Harry to her care. > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova Rosebeth (me): I'm at work, without the books, but as I recall this conversation happening with Harry and Dudley still standing in the room. I'm not sure that I believe that Petunia is protecting Harry. I think she's just continuing the convesation ignoring the fact that Harry is right there. My guess is that she doesn't want to leave him home alone, because she knows that it's something Harry wants. I believe at the begining of this conversation we are told that they always have conversations about Harry, in front of him as if he wasn't there at all. Also, I don't think Harry's protected because he's within arms reach of his aunt and uncle. I think it's more of the fact that he lives in there home, etc. How else would he be safe wondering around the neighborhood? Of course I could be missing a huge clue. Rosebeth From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 12 21:07:07 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:07:07 -0000 Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Now, was this what Snape had in mind all along, for Harry to reveal > that he was a Parselmouth? Hard to tell. > > It is reasonable to surmise that Dumbledore suspected, or knew, Harry was a Parselmouth. His theory about V-Mort transferring some power to Harry is one thing. It is possible the Dursleys told Mrs. Figg about Dudley getting trapped in the snake cage at the zoo, which she might have reported to D-Dore.<<< Dudley trapped in the snake cage is movie contamination! The vanishing glass and the escape of a boa constrictor are in the book. The news might have reached Dumbledore from Mrs. Figg, but it might have made the Muggle news as well, in which case Dumbledore might have realized that it had happened on Dudley's birthday and looked into it further. > > Now, does it follow that he ordered Snape to reveal it in that > fashion? Possible, but I doubt it. What if Dumbledore floated the idea that Harry might be a Parselmouth past Snape, and Snape, who is always maintaining that there is nothing so very special about Mr. Potter, didn't believe it? Snape could have arranged the demonstration in order to show that Dumbledore was *wrong*. The "shrewd and calculating look" may have been Snape covering his surprise (we know he's a good actor, because he was a successful spy.) Pippin From Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca Mon May 12 21:00:28 2003 From: Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca (shihtouji) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:00:28 -0000 Subject: Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: <20030512190741.42414.qmail@web41301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susan Snow wrote: > > > I have been following this thread and I seem to have > gotten a different inmpression of Petunia. In PS/SS > in the first chapter Vernon is upset by the wierd > people but not apoplectic. Vernon seemed more worried > about Petunia's reaction. It almost seemed like he > feared her reaction. He started to dial home from > work and decided not too. Then after he got home he > still didn't tell her everything he had heard that > day. In fact he only asked what the childs name was. True, although I find it interesting that JKR focuses on Vernon (one of the few scenes in the whole series *not* narrated from Harry's perspective) rather than Vernon and Petunia, or on their separate experiences. Why did she not, for example, add a scene where Petunia ventures into the High Street with Dudley, and is met by a witch or wizard telling her to rejoice on this happy, happy day? Or have Petunia notice owls or the kittified McGonagall throughout the day (she would, of course, know what the owls meant more than Vernon). My point is that I read Petunia's silence as significant, somehow (write me after June 21 and see if I'm correct!) BTW, I read Vernon's ambivalence about calling Petunia coming from a different motivation: he's deeply unnerved himself, and wants to discuss this with the only other person in the world who would understand why he's having kittens, but he doesn't want to worry her. I'm not sure that's fear, but rather protectiveness (as has been noted, he moves to protect her from Arthur Weasley, too.) In the grand scheme of things, of course, Vernon's protectiveness could be a subtle irony: of the two, Petunia is the one with more experience of the WW, having had a witch sister and all. Vernon's nervousness seems driven by self-centredness: he's deeply worried that somehow this wizard activity will involve him, so when he hears the name "Harry Potter" he tries to convince himself that it's not the *same* Harry Potter, &c. &c. > Vernon is the more physical of the two but I have seen > many couples where the one that is generally disliked > but more people tend to be put up to being rude etc. > by the more unreasonble "quiet" spouse. Yeah, true; point taken: tho' I'm going to put my money on Vernon as the real Dursley villain here. Petunia's an enigma, and I still wonder why JKR keeps her pretty much in the shadows (apart from the size of the shadows cast by Vernon and Dudley!) "Noel" From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 12 21:17:10 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:17:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clue for the "ancient protection?" References: Message-ID: <002f01c318cb$da28a3b0$81ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57700 > > Rosebeth: > I'm at work, without the books, but as I recall this conversation > happening with Harry and Dudley still standing in the room. I'm not > sure that I believe that Petunia is protecting Harry. I think she's > just continuing the convesation ignoring the fact that Harry is right > there. My guess is that she doesn't want to leave him home alone, > because she knows that it's something Harry wants. I believe at the > begining of this conversation we are told that they always have > conversations about Harry, in front of him as if he wasn't there at > all. > Kelly (me): I've seen a few people say this, so thought I would reply. Upon both Vernon and Petunia seeing the letter, Vernon shooed both Dudley and Harry out of the kitchen and shut the door. They were both listening by the door (Dudley at the keyhole, Harry through the crack under the door). Granted, they might have had an inkling the boys were there, but they weren't actually standing in the room, so there's less of a chance they might think of them listening without them being physically in the room. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From petalla at express56.com Mon May 12 20:51:19 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:51:19 -0000 Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: <20030512173012.3373.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > > It's these two sentences that gave me the idea > that the spell was Snape's idea. > > Lynn I know that there is a whispering situation going on. It just does not ring clear with me. I also realize that the movie is very different from the books--but why is this scene acted so differently in the movie? Snape almost seems concerned--ALMOST. If Dumbledore does in fact give Snape the idea (request, command (whatever)) to put Harry in a stressfull situation with a Snake---Oh forget it. Snape really screws up my thinking when it comes to these books. I DON'T GET HIM. I'm not sure if anyone does just yet. Why would Snape want people to think Harry was Slytherin's Heir? He's not exactly the person that Malfoy would want to follow around (at this point anyway). In GoF why is it Snape that seems to be delaying Harry from telling Dumbledore about Crouch(mad in the forest)? Arg... The boy is driving this girl batty (forgive the pun). If he is not a vampire, then I think he may at least be an aninmagus. There are too many bat references for him not to be. JKF did say that the animal a character will turn into is definitely a reflection of the character's personality. ~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From Resqgal911 at msn.com Mon May 12 21:59:58 2003 From: Resqgal911 at msn.com (Tammy Bianchi) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:59:58 -0400 Subject: Clue for the "ancient protection?" References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57702 Susan Snow wrote: > > > I have been following this thread and I seem to have > gotten a different inmpression of Petunia. In PS/SS > in the first chapter Vernon is upset by the wierd > people but not apoplectic. Vernon seemed more worried > about Petunia's reaction. It almost seemed like he > feared her reaction. He started to dial home from > work and decided not too. Then after he got home he > still didn't tell her everything he had heard that > day. In fact he only asked what the childs name was. Then Noel wrote: True, although I find it interesting that JKR focuses on Vernon (one of the few scenes in the whole series *not* narrated from Harry's perspective) rather than Vernon and Petunia, or on their separate experiences. Why did she not, for example, add a scene where Petunia ventures into the High Street with Dudley, and is met by a witch or wizard telling her to rejoice on this happy, happy day? Or have Petunia notice owls or the kittified McGonagall throughout the day (she would, of course, know what the owls meant more than Vernon). My point is that I read Petunia's silence as significant, somehow (write me after June 21 and see if I'm correct!) BTW, I read Vernon's ambivalence about calling Petunia coming from a different motivation: he's deeply unnerved himself, and wants to discuss this with the only other person in the world who would understand why he's having kittens, but he doesn't want to worry her. I'm not sure that's fear, but rather protectiveness (as has been noted, he moves to protect her from Arthur Weasley, too.) In the grand scheme of things, of course, Vernon's protectiveness could be a subtle irony: of the two, Petunia is the one with more experience of the WW, having had a witch sister and all. Vernon's nervousness seems driven by self-centredness: he's deeply worried that somehow this wizard activity will involve him, so when he hears the name "Harry Potter" he tries to convince himself that it's not the *same* Harry Potter, &c. &c. Now me (Tammy): While this does seem important, I believe that these observations are only true until baby Harry arrives with the letter. I'm sure that Vernon got his impression of the WW from Petunia. I think that he genuinely does worry about her reaction in the first chapter. I think that they do still have this opinion of the WW. But, I believe that "the letter" somehow has forced her to do certain things (like use Mrs. Figg and never leave Harry alone at home). I am in the camp with those that believe Petunia is keeping most of the contents of the letter from Vernon. She probably just told him that Harry's parents were killed and that Harry might have magical abilities. Tammy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 22:00:08 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the sorting hat In-Reply-To: <20030512201720.96014.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030512220008.35857.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57703 --- Anita wrote: > Thanks for that, Andrea...I should be reading more thoroughly.. > But I do wonder: what else can the sorting hat do? It is very smart of > course, sorting students > and producing swords and all. But we didn't see much of it after > CoS...maybe it'll turn up later? I have a feeling we haven't seen the > last of it yet. > Wonder what it'll come up with the next time. -Anita *grins* Warning: you've now entered one of my favorite topics of discussion. I LOVE the Sorting Hat, and think it has SO many possibilities in the future books! This is the only artifact we know for a fact is from the time of the Founders and "knew" them in some way. Think of what a great resource it could be. (Especially if, as I suspect, the "brains" put in the Hat are the Founders themselves.) I doubt that Godric's sword is the only artifact left inside, either. I think at the least each Founder left one object for the use of someone in their House at a time of great need. I doubt that JKR invented such a great magical object for the use in just two books. Most of the good spells or objects come back into play later. After being absent entirely in POA, we're again shown the Hat during GOF's Sorting scene. Is this to remind everyone gently of the Hat or the Founders it sings about before it comes into major play in OotP? Hmmmm... :) Andrea, official Sorting Hat nut! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From hp at plum.cream.org Mon May 12 22:26:16 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:26:16 +0100 Subject: Dumbledore and morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030512184641.00977460@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57704 Errol (Who would be frankly amazed if someone had the patience to read through his entire post:) wrote, inter alia: > Cue for a "Dumbledore and Morality" essay, Gulplum Ooh, a challenge (or at least, an invitation)! I *love* a challenge! (BTW why would you be amazed? This is, after all, a list for "grown-ups", and it should be taken as read that people are capable of more than debating which character is sexier than another or going all gooey-eyed when they discover that Nicolas Flamel is a real historical character) A word of warning: because I'd like to get this out ASAP, this isn't really a presentation of a particular thesis, but several disparate thoughts on a common theme. I'm going to start with a potentially inflammatory statement: Dumbledore is a caricature. It's generally accepted that unlike most of the other characters in the books, the Dursleys are little more than caricatures of the archetypal (not to say stereotypical) Evil Step-family. We accept their presence in the stories because they're sort of peripheral to the action whilst giving Harry some of the motivation to safeguard his acceptance in the wizarding world, if not to safeguard the wizarding world itself. They fulfill this single role fairly well, and JKR gets rid of them fairly quickly in each book. Dumbledore presents a problem. Within the stories, he has three roles: Headmaster of Hogwarts, Leader of the Anti-Voldemortists, and Harry's de facto godfather (several characters admit that caring for Harry after the Godric's Hollow attack fell on him; he had James's Invisibility Cloak). As a literary construct, he has a further role as Harry's mentor, moral compass and guide to the magical world. He is not only the motor of Harry's development as a person and as a wizard, but the motor of the overall plot of the sries. He is, as has been repeated ad nauseam, Luke Skywalker's Obi Wan Kenobi, the Narnia childrens' Aslan, and others. Harry has a perfectly viable actual, titular godfather, so this role is a bit of a shoe-in, governed by his role as a literary construct rather than an actual person within the books. But I'll gloss over that. Nevertheless, I do continue to wonder just why James left his Cloak in the care of someone other than Sirius: "... left in my possession *BEFORE* he died..." - emphasis mine; what reason did James have not to trust Sirius with the Cloak? And of course, we always assume that the Cloak came from Dumbledore. But what real proof of that do we have? I have a nagging suspicion at the back of my mind that there is someone *else* who is looking out for Harry, who is yet to be revealed to us. In terms of morality, these three roles rest uneasily on the same pair of shoulders, regardless of their breadth. It is partially because Dumbledore jumps between these roles with apparent ease that we (readers) have the impression of omniscience, omnipresence, infallibility and invincibility. However, a closer investigation of the character shows that whenever these three roles come to head, the priorities inevitably end up: First: Mentor Figure/Literary Construct (hereinafter LC) Second: Surrogate Parent (SP) Third: Leader of the Free World (LFW) Fourth: Hogwarts Headmaster (HH). As LC, he has to be able to relate to Harry, and to the readers. So we have his slightly batty, child-like self, who likes to play tricks on people (e.g. the description of how he hides the Stone in the Mirror) and can be quite anti-Slytherin (e.g. the points-giving at the end of the first year). He has a sweet tooth (which Harry doesn't really share, although most children do). At the same time, he needs to keep Harry on the straight and narrow in both the small things (e.g. corrects "Snape" to "*Professor* Snape") and the big ones ("it's our choices which determine who we are"). He also needs to reassure Harry from time to time, but whilst he's permitted to do so at the cost of being a good HH (dissin' the Slyths again), heaven forbid he should do so at the cost of the plot (my previous comments about Parseltongue in CoS, or why Voldemort wanted to kill him - compare to Obi Wan not telling Luke the whole story about his dad). Dumbledore is suitably humble about his achievements and his status (he blushes when McGonagall describes him as "noble" in Privet Drive, he doesn't want to be Minister although most people appear to want him in the post), but he doesn't actively do anything to negate it. As HH, it is of course natural that he should appear to the pupils in his care as uncrossable/omniscient (e.g. the Age Line around the Goblet). Likewise, as LFW, he has to appear unassailable. But to Harry, he increasingly appears human and not only fallible, but prone to make mistakes. Let's take a closer look at some of Dumbledore's actions: At the beginning of PS/SS, he puts Harry in the care of people who hate him (we discover later on that Dumbledore associated with the Potters after they left Hogwarts, and it's reasonable to assume that he knew how Lily's family perceived her). I suppose he's acting out of a principle of "there's no gain without pain" (as seen on countless exercise videos). In the short term, morally wrong, in the long term (as we can see), justified and perhaps even right. The reasons for leaving him there, though, are unrelated to Dumbledore's status as HH, and are divided between LFW and SP. However, the main reason is The Plot. Harry has to know nothing about the wizarding world, but once inducted has to want to remain there despite the dangers, because the alternative is worse. From Harry's perspective, on finding out at the age of eleven that Dumbledore deliberately left him with these despicable people, he should hate him. However, it is important for LC!Harry and LC!Dumbledore to reach an immediate rapport and to trust each other. He gives Harry his inherited Invisibility Cloak: as HH, a foolhardy if not downright bad move, inviting trouble. As SP, it makes sense, reminding Harry that he has a legacy to live up to. As LFW, it can come in useful. Harry is clearly a part of his plan against Voldemort, and giving him the tools with which to fight seems like a good move. However, it's as LC that passing the Cloak on mkes the greatest sense, being as it is, the perfect plot device in so many circumstances. And, of course, it only really makes sense because Dumbledore can trust 11-year-old (!) Harry to use it "wisely". Morally, not a particularly morally "adult" thing to do on Dumbledore's part, neither in the short nor long term, but boy, does it up the ante plot wise! Just a couple of points on the point-giving at the end of PS/SS: as HH, a very bad move. Perhaps he's teaching the Slyths to accept disappointment, or, as some people have said, that earning points is more valuable than engineering having them taken away from others. The main lesson he's imparting is "I can be as fickle as the worst of you". As LFW, he's saying "the rules don't really count as long as we maintain allegiance to higher principles". Again, it's only as SP and LC that the scene makes sense, or is given moral validity, and that's what the text shows. I'll be honest and admit that I'm getting a bit bored of this (not to mention, pressed for time), so although I really wanted to do the same thing with CoS, and in particular the final "revelation scene" in McGonagall's office (Dumbledore is *beaming*, for goodness' sake!), I'll leave it as "an exercise for the reader". The fact is, as stated at the start above, Dumbledore is a caricature, a cartoon. He's not *meant* to be taken as a single, moral being, but juggles his four roles with some discomfort. Now, had Dumbledore's character been entirely consistent and his decisions and actions comprehensible (not to mention morally justifiable) from all four perspectives, JKR would have created a literary character of mammoth proportions. As things stand mid-series, he's a fake who reveals his fictional roots at every turn. Regardless of the plot twists ahead, nothing will change the fact that his decisions cannot be said to be truly adult, and consistent with his role as the authorial voice of morality in every respect. On the other hand, this makes the character fascinating for speculating what lies ahead, because although not all of his actions are "right", and those undertaken in his role as the literary construct of mentor and moral guide are those which should guide us, his alternative personas are just as able to make the right decisions at the right time (that timing determined by the plot, of course), and thus theories like the DISHWASHER of REDHEAD ALWAYS remain a possibility, if only a very, very slight one. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who really shouldn't post this before doing a lot more work, but would prefer to put it up for debate before continuing to think about it (besides, The West Wing has just started) :-) From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 12 22:20:22 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:20:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Adopted!Harry References: <105.2e59380e.2bf136ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <004401c318d4$aee17390$9b5a253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57705 In a message dated 5/12/2003 9:50:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > Harry thinks he's heard the name Tom Riddle before, as if > it were something from when he was very young; Lynda asked: could you say where you read this? I don't remember it. Thanks. Me (Izaskun): "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it were a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that." CoS pg 223. Scholastic. I don't think that means or implies that Harry was indeed adopted, I think it's just a clue. Some of Voldemort's powers and probably deep knowledge transferred to Harry the night V tried to kill him. Maybe the name just rings a bell in some inconcious knowledge of his, or something of the sort. Cheers, Izaskun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 12 22:23:07 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:23:07 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Adopted!Harry_is_Really=85._TTTR?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57706 Thought I'd de-bonnet my bees re. the Admiring Skeptic's huge Voldemort!Harry theory: The Admiring Skeptic said: 8: Now that Harry's blood is in Voldemort, killing Harry won't completely eliminate Voldemort's beginning, so no godhood. Or, Voldemort touching Harry proved that the preparations for the godhood spell were done wrong to begin with. Or whatever. But then Dumbledore looked old and tired again because he realized that even if Voldemort doesn't become a god, he can do lots of evil anyway. Kirstini (c'est moi): But surely they'd have the same blood in the first place? Admiring Skeptic again: Making Harry = Voldemort plays the strongest card possible for the moral choices theme. Harry doesn't defeat Voldemort because he is born with any special abilities ? he has exactly the same ones Voldemort has. Neither does Harry have an innately better character ? he's got the identical innate character as Ultimate Evil. But somehow (JKR will pick the somehow she believes in), Harry made better choices, and that's the only difference. Kirstini again: I'm just not buying this "identical innate character" thing. As I read down your post, I found a lot of your argument convincing, but I thought to myself "how on earth is this going to get round the fact that Harry and LV have completely different characters?" It would seem to me that the facts of their similar upbringings - which neither had any control over - and their very different *reactions* (NOT "choices") to said upbringings would make the inherent differences in their characters immediatly obvious. Both grow up (as) orphans, completely isolated, friendless, and treated badly. One of them develops an inferiority complex displayed in overachievment/desire for ultimate power ("...I...the greatest sorcerer in the world!" CoS Brit, p231) , becomes bitter, nasty, and generally psychopathically genocidal. The other makes friends easily, doesn't really like a lot of publicity, finds an outlet for lack of recognition in Muggle world through competing at a *team* sport, and tends to support the underdog. Nope. I'm still not seeing it. Plus there's the point someone else answering this message made about the whole "True Gryffindor" thing [possible theory - were the Founding FathersandMothers of Hogwarts really just one person with many different facets, ultimate message of the series being something like "We found out that each of us was a brain, a princess, a criminal, a basket case and a genocidal maniac" cf. Hermione as Ravenclaw? ;)] The Skeptic continues: Or in other words, the ultimate battle is with the evil who is oneself. Sounds good, no?> Kirstini - yerrrrsss. It does, darn it. But also a bit reminiscent of that bit in the cave in The Empire Strikes Back where Luke takes off Vader's helmet to reveal..dahdahdah...himself! JKR is no Piggy Lucas. She's far more intelligent and a lot subtler. I'm sure that if all the Harry/Riddle similarities which made the first part of this argument so compelling are going to be employed to this kind of end then she'll use the similarities to highlight parallels in (as you said) choices - ie CoS Sorting Hat dilemma. Final Skepticism: I have a continuation of my theory that involves the end of the > series and the night J&L died, but enough is enough for now. Oooh! Please! Apocolypse *now*! (but no more TimeTurners, please chaps. They're making my head spin) Kirstini can't seem to keep her hands off CoS this week. PS-I think you need an acronym for this, though. I really do. That'll keep *me* occupied while I'm supposed to be helping my first years revise. Anyone else? From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 12 22:38:24 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:38:24 -0000 Subject: Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57707 A quickie (yes, I KNOW I should have jammed it in with my other posting, but it's only just occurred to me. Sorry!) on the "contents of Dumbledore's letter" debate. Many of the most recent threads have centred on Petunia's refusal to leave Harry in the house by himself, and around exactly how alone he was that day at the zoo. I've just noticed that nobody has touched on Harry's pre-Hogwarts schooling and whether or not he was protected there (in this debate). I think I remember reading a earlier post which pointed out that the Dursleys were about to send Harry to a seperate school from Dudley anyway when he got his Hogwarts letter, so therefore Dudley (ie a relative)'s presence alone couldn't have been what was protecting him at primary school. Just thought I'd offer it up. Snap away. Kirstini PS - I read in the Digest, and can't find it now, someone who made a distinction between the home-based day schools of America and the boarding schools in Britain. Just thought I'd point out - Boarding schools are (very emphatically) not the norm in Britain. Harry was off to the local comprehensive (day school, non fee-paying) before the Hogwarts letter. I was puzzling this over in this context as it meant he'd be under the Dursley's feet all the time, but then remembered the dyeing of clothes grey to make uniform (even comprehensives in England insist on compulsory uniform, not the case in Scotland or secular schools in Ireland) and concluded that the Ds would rather have him around than actually pay any money for his education, which potentially adds another layer to this argument. From flamingstarchows at att.net Mon May 12 22:37:59 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:37:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion References: <00e501c318a8$7b3ddcd0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> Message-ID: <00e501c318d7$250c3c60$bcff560c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 57708 Peggy wrote: > Am I missing something? (Besides half of my mind at this point? - > Gotta love this time of year-grading-ARG). I've re-read this chapter > of CoS, and I am not sure where the idea comes from that Serpensortia > was Snape's idea. From: Katy Cartee Now i don't have my book in front of me, but i distinctly remember Snape whispering something into Draco's ear right before he casts the Serpensortia spell. So i, assumingly along with many others, believe that he told Draco to do this. ----now me---- I guess I'll finally jump in on this one. I thought the same thing, that Snape whipered the spell into Draco's ear - but not because it was to "out" Harry as a Parcelmouth as some have suggested, but rather because throwing a large snake at him would be the cool Slytherin thing to do. After all, he didn't just stand and wait to see what happened (from CoS, Chapter 11): "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight of Harry standing motionless, eye to eye wit the angry snake. "I'll get rid of it...." They only found out that Harry was a Parcelmouth because Lockhart ineptly tried to step in and instead of getting rid of the snake, managed to throw it ten feet into the air. Harry stepped in when the angry snake went after Justin. ~~Cathy~~ From flamingstarchows at att.net Mon May 12 22:50:36 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:50:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New(?) observations..... References: Message-ID: <014c01c318d8$e7d98260$bcff560c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 57709 -Tanya wrote: But, perhaps that's because I'm American and I'm confusing what Americans call English Bulldogs with what the English actually consider a true Bulldog? Perhaps it's a different breed entirely? Maybe somebody could clear this up for me? --Me-- I think I can help - I breed and show Chows, which are in the same group as the bulldog. Though you don't see it too often over here, there is a totally acceptable tail on a bulldog which is about 4 or 5 inches long, straight, and flat. Its quite ugly and looks somewhat like a paddle sticking off of end of the dog. The first time I saw one like that, I asked a friend who happened to be a bulldog breeder and judge, and he said that it actually used to be far more common. But the short, screw tail has become the norm. Anyway, I pictured the bulldog that belonged to AUnt Marge as having one of these types of tails. It would stick straight out and certainly be capable of being stepped on. ~~Cathy~~ From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 12 22:59:27 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:59:27 -0000 Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57710 Pippin: > > Dudley trapped in the snake cage is movie contamination! > Yeah, yeah. Ok, I confess. I lost perspective there for a moment. (That IS one of the moments I like better in the movie than the book, though.) Ok, let's go over the Snape possibilities: * All-Knowing Snape, Omniscient Dumbledore: Snape knew exactly what he was doing, Dumbledore knew exactly how he was going to do it, and it went perfectly according to plan, which is why Snape had a shrewd and calculating look. Dumbledore was giving some tough love lessons to Harry about learning how to deal with infamy as well as fame, and also, figured that, with the heat on Harry, he'd be able to figure out what Riddle was up to. Darrin's view: NO! I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient Dumbledore. * Mean and Knowledgable Snape, Mostly Omniscient Dumbledore: Snape was ordered to make Harry reveal his Parselmouth, but Dumbledore is torked that Snape made Harry a pariah in the process. The shrewd and calculating look is because Snape makes Harry look like an evil git. Darrin's view: Not as bad, but hopefully Snape got his knuckles rapped for this one. * Mean and Clueless Snape, Smart, But Not THAT Smart Dumbledore: Snape was just having a bit of fun with Potter, and was as shocked as anyone else when Harry was a Parselmouth. The shrewd look is because he realized that what Potter would be going through now was 100 times worse than getting a minor fright from a snake. Dumbledore, though suspecting Harry might be a Parselmouth, wasn't sure until this moment. Didn't order anything. Darrin's view: The one I like the best. I like my Snape on a need-to- know basis, not as ultra spymaster. I also like my Snape hateful in a lot of ways, not some benevolent bat flapping around with 18 motives for every action. * Mean and Clueless Snape, Clueless Dumbledore: See above Snape, but add a Dumbledore just as surprised as anyone. Darrin's view: Probably not, but oh well. Darrin -- You're a mean one, Mr. Snape... From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 12 23:10:10 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:10:10 -0000 Subject: New(?) observations..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "probonoprobono" wrote: > >Karen wrote: > > Heck, I'd go as far as saying it *IS* > impossible to step on a bulldog's tail, given it's sort of a squat, > kinky little pigtail thing. > But, perhaps that's because I'm American and I'm confusing what > Americans call English Bulldogs with what the English actually > consider a true Bulldog? Perhaps it's a different breed entirely? > Maybe somebody could clear this up for me? Valky (me): I am pretty sure that bulldogs in the UK are the same as the US. I guess that the animal must have been particularly lazy and ignorant and was sitting or sleeping in a doorway or walkway in Aunt Marges house when it occured. Sort of fits the profile> :D From artsylynda at aol.com Mon May 12 23:52:40 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:52:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adopted!Harry Message-ID: <16a.1e8d97f7.2bf18dc8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57712 In a message dated 5/12/2003 6:54:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > > Interesting concept but it doesnt explain why Voldemort tried to > kill Harry and did kill Harry's parents. If they are "one and the > same" why would he do this. I am open to suggestions, it seems quite > an interesting topic! > > Dan! > Because they were trying to protect him. V. told Lily she didn't have to die (don't have my book right here, not quoting exactly) but he did give her a chance to live -- he just wanted to kill Harry. So if V. and Harry are one and the same (scary thought), then James and Lily must have known what they were doing to take him in and keep him on the run. Hmm, this theory sounds more and more interesting. I hope Harry survives it (and all the books!) intact! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Mon May 12 23:55:16 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:55:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adopted!Harry Message-ID: <94.378f5a7d.2bf18e64@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57713 In a message dated 5/12/2003 6:54:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > >>The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for > >Harry to be Voldemort himself.<< > > > > > > But how do you explain the fact that Harry was able to pull > Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat? Remember, "only a true > Gryffindor ..." etc.? > > yup, that is a logical problem. If Harry truly is the Heir of Gryffindor (and he must be, since he was able to pull that sword out of the hat, and the hat was brought to him in the first place, by Fawkes, who I think was probably Godrick's phoenix -- right colors and all that), then he can't be Voldemort -- unless Tom Riddle was a Gryffindor -- what colors was he wearing when Harry saw him? Has it been stated clearly somewhere that V. was a Slytherin, or have we just assumed it? Curiouser and curiouser. . . Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Tue May 13 00:23:27 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:23:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1DAD3742-84D9-11D7-8508-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57714 On Monday, May 12, 2003, at 10:26 AM, Coble, Katherine wrote: > I call my theory "Not Really". > I don't see her returning to that particular Deux Ex Machina to > "solve" her overall story. At least I hope not. I'm right there with ya! I was actually quite disappointed when she introduced the time travel bit in the first place. It opens up too many problems and introduces the blatantly obvious question: "Why didn't McGonagall or DD just jump back in time to save the Potters?" Once you go down that "time travel" road you have a hell of a time keeping things in check. The Star Trek writers did it FAR too often, until they got to the point that they had to introduce some kind of "Timeline Police" (don't remember what it was called exactly) to "keep the timeline clean", that the Federation creates after they completely master time travel. I think JKR is going to have to introduce some serious limitation to time travel in general. And having strict ministry laws about it just isn't good enough. People like Voldemort and Malfoy don't care about the Ministry's laws. I honestly think it would have been better if JKR just hadn't gone there. Oh well. --Dan From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue May 13 00:34:11 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:34:11 -0000 Subject: Adopted!Harry In-Reply-To: <94.378f5a7d.2bf18e64@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/12/2003 6:54:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > > > >>The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for > > >Harry to be Voldemort himself.<< > > > > > > > But how do you explain the fact that Harry was able to pull > > Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat? Remember, "only a true > > Gryffindor ..." etc.? > > > > > > >yup, that is a logical problem. If Harry truly is the Heir of > Gryffindor(and he must be, since he was able to pull that sword out > of the hat, and the hat was brought to him in the first place, by > Fawkes, who I think was probably Godrick's phoenix -- right colors > and all that),then he can't be Voldemort -- unless Tom Riddle was a > Gryffindor -- what colors was he wearing when Harry saw him? Has it > been stated clearly somewhere that V. was a Slytherin, or have we > just assumed it? Curiouser and curiouser. . . Me(Valky): Checking my COS Uk edition printed in Australia, I couldn't find any reference to what Riddle was wearing in the Chamber of Secrets or The Diary memory. It mentions only that he is "taller than Harry" and has "jet black" hair. So......... apart form him having been "THe Heir of Slytherin" ,which I concede is quite significant, all we can do IS assume which house he was sorted to. The reason I believe this is because, to me, the canon is unclear on whether sorting is *dependent* on genealogical inheritance. THough it certainly defines a strong relationship between the two. IMO, it is far from incorrect to assume that Riddle was a Slyth, but it seems the series is left open for a possible revelation in that department. From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Tue May 13 00:34:40 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The 12 uses of Dumbledore's omniscience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513003440.68716.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57716 --- abigail wrote: > To which Lynn objected. I hope Errol doesn't > mind me jumping in: > > > How do you know > > Dumbledore doesn't know the extent of the > castle? > > Because he says so himself in GoF. I don't > remember the exact occasion, but Harry hears > Dumbledore tell someone over dinner that there > are rooms in the castle that he doesn't > know, and gives for example the room full of > bedpans which he found once and has > never been able to find again. Lynn: Yes, Dumbledore does say to Karkaroff at the Yule Ball that he would never dream of assuming he knew all Hogwarts' secrets. (GoF, p. 363, UK) Indeed Dumbledore may not know all the secrets, however, that may also be Dumbledore's 'modesty'. I see it much the same way as when Dumbledore concedes to Madame Maxime that he may have made a mistake with his Age line. Or, perhaps it was a way to lead into a description of 'The Room'. I believe that was actually foreshadowing, a way to tell Harry about the room in an understated way. Dumbledore has done this before, such as with the Mirror of Erised. I personally believe Dumbledore knows all about that room and that it will play a part in the plot. Sorry, but I just don't believe that Dumbledore took a wrong turn going to the toilet and I get the impression Harry didn't either. abigail wrote: > > What do you mean he has no control over the > > actions of mean or cowardly people > > Quirrel, Lockhart, to a certain extent Snape, > Bagman, Karkaroff, Crouch Jr. All hatched > dastardly plans and carried them out right > under Dumbledore's oversized nose. Lynn: First, what I really meant by this question was what exactly was meant by no control over the actions. Unless someone is under the Imperious Curse, no one has control over someone's else's actions. People chose their actions for themselves. If, however, what was meant was no control over the consequences of people's actions, that's different. (This is probably clear as mud but I hope someone understands what I mean.) Now, what dastardly plans did Lockhart, Bagman and Karkaroff carry out? Maybe I missed those. Yes, I would say that Lockhart was a dolt, Bagman a sleaze and Karkaroff just an all around nasty guy, but what was Dumbledore supposed to control? What was Dumbledore supposed to do about Lockhart? Give Lockhart Veritaserum and make him confess that he's a fraud? Was Dumbledore supposed to slap Bagman on the wrist for gambling too much? I can't even figure out what Karkaroff was doing bad. These three may be doing some not so nice things, but Dumbledore doesn't have the right to control those actions. They, as grown men, have the right to make mistakes themselves if they want to or do bad things if they wish. As to Snape, as much as I'm not inclined to support his way of teaching, as has been pointed out in other postings, that's a judgment call. Now, Quirrell and Crouch, Jr. did perform dastardly deeds and these two I agree with regarding controlling the consequences of their actions. Perhaps Dumbledore should have stopped Quirrell, however, it may be as Harry speculates that Dumbledore armed him so that he could face Voldemort himself. As for Crouch, Jr., Dumbledore did know something was happening, had finally come to understand who was doing it but apparently didn't know how they were doing it. I'm really not sure just what Dumblefore could have done to prevent it but am certainly open to suggestions. And, as I said, I may agree with the examples and I certainly do agree with Quirrell and Crouch, Jr. These are two examples of people in which Dumbledore should have had more control over the consequences of their actions. abigail wrote: > or can't see > > or fix loopholes? > > Well, he couldn't get Harry out of being a > Triwizard champion, could he? Lynn: Where is the loophole in Harry being Triwizard champion? In fact, it's the lack of a loophole which prevents Dumbledore from getting Harry out of that situation. There isn't a loophole that says, if someone uses the name of a 4th school they can't be champion, if there is already one champion chosen from a school, the second is disqualified or even if someone's name was put in the Goblet without their consent the contract is not binding. Rather, what we have here is an absolute with no loopholes to see or fix. Now, if you were saying why didn't Dumbledore foresee various ways that someone could not only get Harry's name into the Goblet but also get him to be chosen as champion, we'd have agreement again. This is something Dumbledore most certainly should have foreseen and taken steps to prevent, particularly in light of what happened at the World Cup. However, I submit that the Dark Arts aren't the same as a loophole. Lynn (now wondering if the teachers get their own personal toilet or are left wandering around the school looking for the teacher's toilet all night.) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 13 00:43:04 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:43:04 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <1DAD3742-84D9-11D7-8508-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57717 Dan: > > Once you go down that "time travel" road you have a hell of a time > keeping things in check. The Star Trek writers did it FAR too often, > until they got to the point that they had to introduce some kind of > "Timeline Police" (don't remember what it was called exactly) to "keep > the timeline clean", that the Federation creates after they completely > master time travel. I think JKR is going to have to introduce some > serious limitation to time travel in general. And having strict > ministry laws about it just isn't good enough. People like Voldemort > and Malfoy don't care about the Ministry's laws. > > I honestly think it would have been better if JKR just hadn't gone > there. > I think the best restriction she can create, at this point, is to just simply limit Time Travel to the Time-Turner. One hour at a time. Say Voldemort wants to go back in time to stop himself from using AK on Harry -- maybe he tells his past self to, no matter what, NOT KILL LILY! (No killing Lily, no sacrifice protection! And maybe he just tells his past self to drop an anvil on the kid's head or something and not take a chance with the AK.) Now, on Halloween 1996, it will have been 15 years since that happened. That means, at one hour a turn, V-Mort would have to turn the damn thing backwards 131,400 times! Bah, better to kill the little bastard now! And what if you lose count and actually only turn it back 131,398 times? Then you get there too late and have to start all over! And unless the damn thing goes forward, how do you get back? Or, to prevent V-Mort from ordering Pettigrew to actually turn it back 131,400 times -- and forcing him to go back regardless of whether there is a way to the present or not -- make it so there is a limit on how many times you can turn the Time-Turner -- say, 24 hours, or even less. Who cares about the physics of it? It's a freaking hourglass that sends you back in time in a series about a kid with a lightning scar that walks through a wall to get to his train! You can make it up! The last thing I want is JKR actually worried about people that write books like "The Science of Harry Potter Explained." Say that it was invented to allow very short-term fixes, before the timeline got too far along. I agree that Time Travel should be used VERY sparingly. Ditto for the Polyjuice Potion and Animagi. Darrin -- Maybe V-Mort could make up a song while he's turning... 131,400 turns of this thing Turn the glass, sit on my ass 131,399 turns of this thing From hp at plum.cream.org Tue May 13 00:49:05 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:49:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <1DAD3742-84D9-11D7-8508-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030513013103.0097ea90@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57718 Dan Delaney wrote: >I'm right there with ya! I was actually quite disappointed when she >introduced the time travel bit in the first place. It opens up too many >problems and introduces the blatantly obvious question: "Why didn't >McGonagall or DD just jump back in time to save the Potters?" Actually, as I said a few days ago, I absolutely adore JKR's version of time travelling, because she makes that an impossibility. In a nutshell, "you can't change what has already happened". Buckbeak wasn't executed, Harry saw himself (his future self) cast the Patronus. If the Potters hadn't been attacked, nobody would've known to go back to save them. The Potters *were* attacked and very quickly killed - there's no way to change that fact. Therefore there is no point in going back to save them, because it's already known that they were dead. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's surprised that people keep raising this as a potential problem when it's nothing of the sort. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue May 13 01:18:34 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:18:34 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <1DAD3742-84D9-11D7-8508-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dan Delaney wrote: > On Monday, May 12, 2003, at 10:26 AM, Coble, Katherine wrote: > > I don't see her returning to that particular Deux Ex Machina to > > "solve" her overall story. At least I hope not. > >Dan Wrote: > I was actually quite disappointed when she introduced the time > travel bit in the first place. It opens up too many > problems and introduces the blatantly obvious question: "Why didn't > McGonagall or DD just jump back in time to save the Potters?" > Hi Katherine and Dan: Pointless, though it may be, because it appears that your minds are made up about it, I am getting on my soapbox about time manipulation as a future plot revelation. First I would like to make reference to the question, Why didn't Dumbledore use the time turner to save James and Lily? On the contrary I think he did use a time turner. To save Harry. Well actually Dumbledore sent Hagrid with the time turner. *proof* There is no mention of the transport he took to Godrics Hollow. In order to get out in time he needed to borrow a vehicle. Hagrid is not a small man. I assume he arrived on foot, so, it is unlikely Dumbledore sent him running after hearing that Lily and James were slain. I suspect a 50 plus year old half-giant is not particularly fleet-footed lol. Now why just Harry and not James and Lily? Well I give two reasons. 1 Fidelius Charm. Who could unlock the power of the Charm. While the Potters still lived the only people that could save them was Peter Pettigrew. *Though that does beg the question; Why, then, was it possible for Hagrid to find Harry? After all, the Fidelius Charm was his protection too. If he was not covered by it, why then couldn't LV just seek and find Harry Potter? Well, guessing that Lily or James charmed the secret themselves would explain why the power of the Fidelius vanished after their deaths. Most likely Lily, for if it were James, accordingly, Lily could also have been saved with Harry. Not by Hagrid ,however. Who was probably not a match for LV. 2 Though my above argument to most degrees covers it, I would like to add this; Dumbledore and Hermione both imply, with feeling, that the constraints over time manipulation are complex and need careful planning. Perhaps at some stage Dumbledore realised that saving Lily and James was NOT inconsequential to the thread of time and posed more of a threat to Harry and themselves than the events that had already unfolded. OK OK I hear you saying "What more threat to James and Lily than AK?". Well, perhaps Dumbledore, or some other wise being, (seer?) foresaw the future as having an immortal Voldemort. One capable of torturing the Potters through their lives, and eventual deaths, if they didn't die that night. I don't think its such a long shot, and, its a simple and neat way to fold the ends of a time travel paradox. I remember someone posting a possible torture for Lily, recently. Re:5th person at Godrics Hollow Imagine the life of Lily, widowed of James and Imperiused under the care of Peter 'Wormtail' Pettigrew. *shudders* A fate worse than death? Likely. I will leave it here for a now. There is more. Only if you are interested. Valky From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 13 01:19:50 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:19:50 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030513013103.0097ea90@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57720 Gulplum, confusing the hell out of me: > > Actually, as I said a few days ago, I absolutely adore JKR's version of > time travelling, because she makes that an impossibility. In a nutshell, > "you can't change what has already happened". > > Buckbeak wasn't executed, Harry saw himself (his future self) cast the > Patronus. Wait. I thought Buckbeak WAS executed. Hermione heard the thunk and began to sway on the spot... WAIT! This is where McNair slammed the axe into the wood in frustration, isn't it? Hermione heard that the first time because other Hermione and Harry had already rescued Buckbeak. Is that where you're going? But, then Dumbledore made a comment about "you can save more than one innocent life tonight," meaning Buckbeak. But, the critter should have already been killed by then... So, Dumbledore, before he suggested to Hermione that she use the Time- Turner, already KNEW that they would be successful? He'd already realized that Hermione and Harry had helped the critter escape -- because as soon as he saw that Buckbeak had escaped, he thought, "Well, I must have had them go back in time and they must have done everything right and they must have fought off the Dementors?" "I'd better remember to do that when I see Harry and Hermione again." This is the Bill and Ted version of time travel! > If the Potters hadn't been attacked, nobody would've known to go back to > save them. The Potters *were* attacked and very quickly killed - there's no > way to change that fact. Therefore there is no point in going back to save > them, because it's already known that they were dead. So, what you're saying is that because no one went back in time to save Lily and James, they were impossible to save, but, on the other hand, no one would have known they needed saving until AFTER they had been killed. OK, I give up. Explain it like I'm a two-year-old with a learning disability. Why couldn't someone have gone back in time and just gotten Lily and James and Harry out of there? Darrin -- Who still says a time limit on the time turner is the best way to go From lissbell at colfax.com Mon May 12 21:44:02 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:44:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces References: Message-ID: <3EC015A2.2F06034B@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57721 Mycropht wrote: > I'm new but have lurked for awhile. I certainly don't mean to step on > anyone's toes, but it seems to me that there are a large number of theories > regarding the resolution of this story which involve time travel. Lissa replied: Hi Mycropht. I assume you're alluding, at least in part, to my (admittedly) ludicrous theory regarding Ginny and Harry being Tom M. Riddle's parents. (grin) *Please* don't think you're bruising my toes. If anyone had suggested this same theory to me last June, I would have rolled my eyes and laughed myself silly. Mycropht wrote: > [JKR] uses best-loved elements of myth, folklore, mystery > plays, modern romance and Tolkien. I think that she has used time travel > as one device in one book. She's been such a clever story teller for so > long that I don't see her returning to that particular Deux Ex Machina to > "solve" her overall story. At least I hope not. I've already been cruelly > duped by George Lucas and his The Universe Is One Big Happy Family B.S. I'd > like for the HP universe to be something more than Hagrid travelling back in > time to hatch V from a dragon's egg as a pet for Salazar Slytherin. Lissa replied: Oh goodness. (nervous smile) I am a bit uncomfortable answering this section of your message because I don't feel it's my right to try to justify or defend someone else's (possible) professional creative choices, but I think I'm going to have to do it anyway. So here goes nothing. (crosses fingers, laughs weakly then takes a deep breath) I believe JKR *is* a clever storyteller who draws on rich fictional traditions, respects her main characters, and does not intend to cheat her readers. I don't believe the time turner in PoA is a Deux Ex Machina. Several times in PoA Rowling makes it fairly clear Hermione is in two places at once. Short of an italicized "Hey guys! Look here!" and a helpful arrow pointing toward the passages in question, I don't think Rowling could have taken more care to imply time travel--or something quite like it--was occurring. Given that the novels are set in a magical universe, the overt introduction of time-travel at the end of the novel was not "forced and improbable". (I'm referencing M. H. Abrams definition of Deux Ex Machina from _A Glossary of Literary Terms_ here, but other definitions are readily available online.) I also believe that in the hands of a careful writer, time-travel can be used in a dignified way as part of an overall plot. I can understand if you disagree with that opinion. In my own view, time travel is often poorly handled and typically *does* constitute a Deux Ex Machina. I would probably not use it in my own serious writing. I would not, however, condemn someone else who used it as carefully as JKR appears to be in the Potter novels. In my opinion, Rowling is a skilled writer who has given her readers ample warning that the Potterverse includes time travel. It would be unfair and inaccurate, should my theory prove correct, to say that JKR wrapped up her series with a Deux Ex Machina plot device. This isn't the forum for me to defend or critique George Lucas, so I'm not going to do it. I *am* going to point out that revelations of unexpected parental identity are a proud tradition in literature. From Sophocles to Charles Dickens to Oscar Wilde, writers have explored this plot twist. It is not, in my opinion, an inherently cheesy gimmick. Nonetheless, the one thing that gives me pause about my theory is its parallels with Star Wars. With the memory of Vader's revelation so fresh in most people's minds, it is a risky plot choice to make. I also freely admit that my theory might be utter nonsense. None of this post should be taken as a defense of my silly hypothesis. (If it had been, I'd have addressed the likelihood of Rowling introducing time travel in her novels then using it only for purposes that don't necessitate time travel in the least...) But in case she *does* go this direction, I wanted to state for the record that I believe she has handled the Potter series--and time travel and surprise paternity--in a careful manner that respects readers and violates no reasonable laws of creative style. Oh Mycropht, if you only knew how much moral resolve it took for me not to mention my opinion of Star Wars in this post... (breaks down into hysterical laughter from the strain) One last thing. Loved the acronym. :) Respectfully, Lissa From hmvick78 at yahoo.com Mon May 12 21:56:11 2003 From: hmvick78 at yahoo.com (h vick) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adopted!Harry_is_Really._TTTR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512215611.95618.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57722 asandhp wrote: The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for Harry to be Voldemort himself. Not his son or father or brother; that is Star Wars. Harry is Tom Riddle, time-turned to the 1980's as an infant and adopted by Lily and James. I love this theory. My head almost exploded. But tell me if I?ve got this right: Essentially what you?re saying is that Tom Riddle was born in 1927 (so says the brilliant HP Lexicon), became Voldemort in about 1945, then went back to 1927 with the time turner, grabbed himself (hee hee) from the muggle orphanage and whisked his infant self to 1980, where he somehow lost track of himself/kidnapped and was adopted by L&J? Then, about a year later, he tracked himself down, found out from Peter Pettigrew where infant!Voldemort was and tried to kill himself, but couldn?t. Hmmm. If that?s true, why didn?t Voldemort just go back to 1927 and kill infant!Tom Riddle, instead of hauling his own ass through the space time continuum to 1980? Why bother? There?s got to be some negative repercussions for not only traveling back and forth through time to steal yourself, but also taking another one of your selves along, too. I don?t think there isn?t any motivation for Voldemort to bring his infant self to 1980, especially if the only point was to achieve immortality and god-like status by killing ?his beginning.? hmvick Also: Based on this theory, if Voldemort would have killed infant!Voldemort, or infant!Harry, or even grown-up!Harry, could it be considered as a double suicide? Homicide? Matricide? Infanticide? Oh geez. From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Mon May 12 23:33:57 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:33:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the sorting hat In-Reply-To: <20030512220008.35857.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030512220008.35857.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1052782437.3ec02f65580d6@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 57723 > --- Anita wrote: > > Thanks for that, Andrea...I should be reading more thoroughly.. > > But I do wonder: what else can the sorting hat do? It is very smart of > > course, sorting students > > and producing swords and all. But we didn't see much of it after > > CoS...maybe it'll turn up later? I have a feeling we haven't seen the > > last of it yet. > > Wonder what it'll come up with the next time. -Anita > Then Andrea, official Sorting Hat nut! said >> I doubt that JKR invented such a great magical object for the use in just > two books. Most of the good spells or objects come back into play later. > After being absent entirely in POA, we're again shown the Hat during GOF's > Sorting scene. Is this to remind everyone gently of the Hat or the > Founders it sings about before it comes into major play in OotP? Hmmmm... > :) > Amber: Andrea, I believe you are in luck... I have heard that we will get a new sorting hat song on June 21!!!! Amber (who can sing the sorting hat song from the 4th year by heart.) -- Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Tue May 13 00:52:08 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Adopted!Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513005208.88287.qmail@web13108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57724 Valky wrote: <<>> And now me (Odile): >From PS (UK) pp 61-62: ...said Hagrid darkly. 'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one.' 'Vol-- sorry -- You-Know-Who was at Hogwarts?' 'Years an' years ago,' said Hagrid. [end quote] Then in CoS (UK) pp 183-184, we see that Tom Riddle and (Rubeus) Hagrid are on a first-name basis. So, I trust Hagrid when he says that TR/LV was indeed in Slytherin. Odile, who will, one of these days, be able to articulate why she doesn't buy the LV-is-Harry theory... ^_~ From lissbell at colfax.com Tue May 13 01:47:27 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:47:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adopted!Harry is =?iso-8859-1?Q?Really=85=2E?= TTTR References: Message-ID: <3EC04EAF.C630EF82@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57725 asandhp wrote: > How do I "know" that Harry was adopted by James and Lily? A number of > ways, starting with the fact that JKR is the master of red herrings, > false identities, and startling plot twists. We have been told so > many times that Harry looks just like his father + mother's eyes that > it "has to" be a red herring. Methinks the lady (JKR) protests too > much. Lissa replied: First of all, I find this a marvelous theory. If JKR does go this direction, it'll be a great fictional ride indeed. However interesting I find the idea, though, I don't agree with it. I agree little HP could have been transfigured by the Potters to resemble themselves following an adoption, but that would be a rather superficial and unnecessary thing for the Potters--who've been portrayed in an admirable light--to do. (snipping asandhp's impressive and significant array of proof that Harry's messy hair is a result of magic) > I propose that his hair was charmed into always looking like James', a > charm too powerful for Harry to beat with a brush or mousse. (James, > though, with no charm on his own hair, could probably style it when > he pleased. When he charmed Harry, though, he went for his typical > lazy look, not the one he worked at for formal occasions.) Lissa replied: Good detective work. Don't you think, however, that it would be a bit unkind for the Potters to impose such a messy hairstyle on a child--especially if that style would stay with him either forever or until he was magically able to change it himself? I agree that your speculation is possible, but it again casts the Potters in a questionable light. I think it's more likely that the rebel imp in Harry is secretly proud of his own untameable locks and that he has enough magical ability--even in his untrained early years--to keep it that way. (snipping asandhp's good explanation for why the Dursley's, etc would not know HP was adopted) Lissa replied: It is possible no one but Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus and Peter would know of an adoption by the Potters, but why would a wise couple like James and Lily rush to adopt a child almost immediately upon graduating from Hogwarts? Given that they were helping Dumbledore in the fight against Voldemort, it would be inconvenient at best, dangerous at worst, to adopt an infant. This is not to say it's impossible. :) But if JKR is going in the direction you suggest, at the *very least* she should have put some detail in the novels that revealed Lily Evans' love for children or strong desire to start a family. asandhp wrote: > The only puzzle is Sirius and Lupin. They were in contact with James > and Lily until the last, and would certainly have known that Lily had > never borne a child. However, after seeing how sincerely attached J&L > were to Harry, they might have simply loved Harry as J&L's child > regardless of how the Potters had acquired him, and all these years > later, the fact of adoption would not have mattered to them anymore. Lissa replied: I absolutely agree Sirius and Lupin would have loved Harry Potter as Lily & James' child whether he was adopted or not! But, as you admit, they would have known. And Sirius banks that Harry's behavior in the Shrieking Shack scene will emulate James Potter's own. Given that James didn't have the opportunity to raise Harry and imprint him with his own value system, Sirius' gamble here almost *has* to be based on Harry's blood tie to James Potter. Then there's Dumbledore's words to Harry in Ch 22 of PoA (starts on p 427 in the US paperback) which make reference to James Potter being alive inside Harry. Since Harry has essentially been raised by the Dursleys, the essential personality and spirit of James Potter probably can't be said to have been impressed upon him environmentally. James Potter would not be alive in Harry in any way, in my opinion, if they weren't blood relatives. Now granted Dumbledore is a master of misdirection, but there's no *need* for him to make these statements to misdirect Harry right now because the boy has *never* questioned his relationship with James Potter. For Dumbledore to willfully perpetuate such a ruse in this passage would be pointlessly cruel. He could certainly have offered words of comfort to Harry without saying that he has his mother's eyes. I can see that you believe JKR is hammering the familial resemblance into us out of a desire to misdirect readers and astonish them at the end, but she could have accomplished this without making Dumbledore complicit with a lie in this scene. I think Rowling likes Dumbledore too much to have him engaging in deceit unless it's crucial at that moment in the story. In my opinion, it isn't crucial here. Also, I think this level of authorly--and I do mean authorly--misdirection would seriously anger readers. For such a red herring to be justifiable at *all* there would have to be some subtle indication from the first book on that Harry is adopted. If not, you have a situation where Rowling *could* be accused of using a Deux Ex Machina plot device. Authors who fail to foreshadow a hugely implausible turns of plot can rightfully be accused of manipulation and sloppiness. I don't think Rowling is either of those things. And, in my opinion, it would not be sufficient to begin foreshadowing an adoption in the 5th book of a 7 part series. (snipping asandhp's discussion on JKR making frequent use of false identity in her plots) Lissa replied: Just wanted to note that I agree with you. Rowling has reasonably prepared readers for a surprise revelation about Harry's identity at the end of the series. If she does follow the path you suggest--at least in this particular aspect--she hasn't cheated stylistically. asandhp wrote: > It would be a waste, after seven great > novels, for Harry to turn out to be Ron's lost twin brother. Nice, > mushy, but a waste. The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for > Harry to be Voldemort himself. Not his son or father or brother; that > is Star Wars. Harry is Tom Riddle, time-turned to the 1980's as an > infant and adopted by Lily and James. Lissa replied: Hey, asandhp, I resemble that remark! (grin) No, it's okay: Star Wars point taken. (Again. *Sigh*.) This theory you propose parallels both "Angel Heart" and "Fight Club". The truth is, there *is* no wholly original plot point out there. The fact that the surprise identity revelation you suggest isn't unique, however, in *no way* negates the possibility that it might be where JKR is taking the plot. Now as to maximizing angst... I'd argue that it's far *far* more heartbreaking and agonizing for HP if he turns out to be Voldemort's father. Harry Potter doesn't have any reservations about risking his own life for a good cause. If Harry found out he was destined to become Voldemort, I personally doubt he'd hesitate to destroy himself or Voldemort. Given, however, that the novels have taken pains to show Harry's desperate desire for a family, it is *enormously* angsty if HP learns Tom M. Riddle is his son. *That* gives Harry internal conflict regarding how to proceed. It would be painful as hell for Harry to learn that he's Voldemort, yes, but his course of action from there would emotionally uncomplicated. (snipping asandhp's explanation that though the time-turner would be hard to use to justify a long range time leap, the fact that time travel exists in the Potterverse means other devices could probably do the job) asandhp wrote: > I propose that Voldemort himself brought his infant self forward > using some dark arts which allowed his adult self to continue to > exist even though his childhood time-line was being disrupted. And I > propose that he did so for the express purpose of killing his infant > self. Lissa replied: I'm confused. Are you saying he took a magical replica of himself to the future? (Note: I'm not being sarcastic here. I genuinely don't understand.) We know from canon that Tom M. Riddle was in an orphanage then attended Hogwarts in the far past. I'm not sure how this fits with Harry growing up with the Dursleys then attending Hogwarts in the 90's. Are you suggesting concurrent alternate realities in one realm for the single entity that is Harry Potter? I'm not saying that would be impossible, but Rowling hasn't given an indication of that being a possible aspect of this universe. If Voldemort took baby Riddle to 1980, why is Tom Marvolo Riddle still in an orphanage? I *know* I'm missing stuff here, so I'll just let you explain. > Why? Because, as we know, Voldemort's main goal is immortality and > absolute power, and, I propose, he discovered a way to attain not > just "ordinary" immortality and absolute power, but something even > greater: a form of dark godhood; not just living without end, but > becoming a being "without beginning and without end" as G-d is. And > part of the magic that would accomplish this godhood would require > getting rid of his beginning killing his own infant self. Thus, I > believe he snatched his infant self to the present (1980's) where the > ritual was prepared, and was about to kill infant!Riddle when someone > stole infant!Riddle at the last minute, saving the world from an > unstoppable god!Voldemort. Lissa replied: This is very interesting, but doesn't necessitate time travel into a whole new generation--at least as far as I understand it. If it was important for Voldemort to destroy his infant self, he could have done so without yanking that infant self into the 1980's. Even though I don't agree with your theory, may I say I think it is just plain cool--especially the aspect of a Potter-god without beginning or end? Man, asandhp, I like your quest-to-become god theory *so* much better than my own theory. This is just really, deliciously sweet stuff. If Rowling wrote a series like this, I'd buy it. I don't think, however, that it's backed by the texts. I also think that it would do some unforgivable damage to the characters of James, Lily and Dumbledore for them to behave in the ways that would be necessary to put this plot in place. (See above and below for elaboration.) (snipping asandhp's suggestion of a possible way the Potters ended up with HP) asandhp wrote: > Probably, no one knew about the ritual but Voldemort himself, and > Dumbeldore, who knows everything. Lissa replied: Out of curiousity, why does Dumbledore know this? (I know I have speculations in regard to my own silly HP-is-father-of-LV theory as to how, precisely, Dumbledore knows the secret truth, but.. I don't see why the Dumbledore in your theory would be privy to any of Riddle's agenda.) (snipping asandhp's fully reasonable justification for other characters not knowing and/or not telling the big secret) asanhp wrote: > As for Dumbledore, can > you imagine him telling Harry such a thing? Maybe that is what is > coming in the "tell everything" speech, but personally, I don't think > JKR is going to divulge this until Book 7. Lissa replied: Assuming your theory is correct, I can't imagine Dumbledore having an easy time telling Harry at all. Like you, I don't think the "big secret" of the books, whatever it is, will be revealed until book 7. I think Dumbledore will give Harry more of the truth in OotP, but not the whole truth. (snipping a whole lot of good discussion from asandhp about the harry=voldemort god-quest theory and how it answers neatly a lot of questions that currently exist in regard to Harry and Voldemort and fits beautifully with Rowling's theme of personal choices determining character) asandhp wrote: > Or in other words, the ultimate battle is with the evil who is > oneself. Sounds good, no? Lissa replied: Man against self is an irresistable theme, asandhp. Your theory is delightful, but I think it's wrong for a few reasons. Why was it important for Voldemort to kill James Potter? James should, in your theory, have no bearing on Riddle's ascension to godhood since he's not genetically related. There's textual suggestion that Voldemort didn't hesitate to kill James, but did try to persuade Lily to step aside and be spared. This implies he minded killing Lily, but not James. Why would this be if they're both just adoptive parents with no relation to him? This is a minor problem, but I don't think it's irrelevant. More importantly, why would Dumbledore go out of his way to deceive Harry in regard to his adoptive status? And why put Harry with the Dursleys--who wouldn't, in your theory, be blood relatives--instead of a different, *reasonable* adoptive family? A few other quibbles: Your theory renders the Weasleys, who I personally believe are as much at the heart of the Potter series as the Potters themselves, unimportant. It also makes everything--*everything*--all about Harry. That would be okay, I suppose, if the novels weren't doing some serious exploration of the themes of family. Why do you think the first novel opens with an appalling day trip into the lives of the most wretched family imagineable? Why do the Malfoys need to exist? (That is to say, how do they help fulfill the novels' theme?) Why is purity of blood an issue in the stories? Is this all just window dressing for one man's catastrophic battle with himself? Don't get me wrong, I do love your theory. If you wrote a story along these lines and wrote it in a compelling and vivid style, I'd read and enjoy it. In my opinion, you need more evidence that suggests Rowling is foreshadowing this resolution. If she doesn't foreshadow it, I can't accept it. Even if it is really *really* pretty. :) This concludes glass-housed Lissa's excursion into throwing stones at asandhp's own fragile & shiny abode. Fascinated, Lissa From Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca Mon May 12 21:09:27 2003 From: Noel.Chevalier at uregina.ca (shihtouji) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:09:27 -0000 Subject: The 12 uses of Dumbledore's omniscience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > > --- errolowl wrote: > > > doesn't know the extents > > of > > > his own castle, has > > > no control over the actions of mean or cowardly > > > people, and either > > > can't see or can't fix all the loopholes in his > > > school's > > > defenses.And there's more where that came from. > > To which Lynn objected. I hope Errol doesn't mind me jumping in: > > > How do you know > > Dumbledore doesn't know the extent of the castle? > > Because he says so himself in GoF. I don't remember the exact occasion, but Harry hears > Dumbledore tell someone over dinner that there are rooms in the castle that he doesn't > know, and gives for example the room full of bedpans which he found once and has > never been able to find again. > non-magical me: He's talking to Karkaroff, in the context of a semi-serious argument about secrecy (Karkaroff has just reprimanded Krum for giving too much information away about Durmstrang's location). Harry thinks Dumbledore gives him a mischievous wink, and I'm convinced that the whole thing is Dumbledore's sense of humour getting away with him. What would this room be--the Chamberpot of Secrets? He's obviously pulling Karkaroff's leg (in't he?) "shihtouji" From hp at plum.cream.org Tue May 13 02:22:41 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 03:22:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20030513013103.0097ea90@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030513030513.0098a850@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57727 Darrin admitted that I was confusing the hell out of him with my previous post and said: >This is the Bill and Ted version of time travel! Absolutely. At least, as far as my limited recollection of the first movie allows (I've never seen the second one from end to end). One example in particular: Bill (Keanu Reeves' character, right?) tells his past self to remember to wind his watch. Of course, when it comes to the crunch, he didn't wind his watch, because the timeline had already happened that way. It didn't make any difference that he'd reminded himself. He'd *already* forgotten to wind it. >So, what you're saying is that because no one went back in time to save Lily >and James, they were impossible to save, but, on the other hand, no one >would have known they needed saving until AFTER they had been killed. Correct. Anything else would have been impossible. >OK, I give up. Explain it like I'm a two-year-old with a learning disability. Treols and the other maintainers of the alt.fan.harry-potter newsgroup FAQ have already done a pretty good job of it, so I'll save myself the typing, and recommend that you read this, although it doesn't directly answer that particular question: http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/potterverse_faq.html#time_travel . (BTW Note to MODs/ADMINs: I would suggest that a link to that page would be a useful addition to the HPFGU front page, as it summaries a lot of the speculation which crops up here as well.) >Why couldn't someone have gone back in time and just gotten Lily and James >and Harry out of there? Because the corollary of what's said above is that if they'd have been saved, they wouldn't have been able to have died in the first place (think about the complicated verbal grammar in that sentence). Hence the whole thing would have been pointless. Just remember one thing: YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST. You can make it happen, but you can't change it. Whatever you made happen is what "the universe" knows to have happened. There is no alternate reality in which events occurred in a different way. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who thinks that the best way to think of the time paradoxes in the HP universe is to accept that time paradoxes can't happen. From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue May 13 02:21:11 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:21:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel Paradoces References: Message-ID: <01bb01c318f6$52984c40$529fcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 57728 Gulplum wrote: > > Actually, as I said a few days ago, I absolutely adore JKR's version of > time travelling, because she makes that an impossibility. In a nutshell, > "you can't change what has already happened". > > Buckbeak wasn't executed, Harry saw himself (his future self) cast the > Patronus. Okay, I'll admit my brain already hurts before trying to understand time travel (for the umpteenth time and not succeeding). I can understand the Buckbeak thing, how Dumbledore couldn't use a time turner to go back and save Cedric, since everyone had already seen him dead, etc. But what I can't understand is how Harry escaped in the first place from the dementor to go back and save himself. The dementor is bending over him and suddenly the patronus comes and he sees what he thinks is his dad, but is himself. But how did he get away from the dementor to get to the time turner to go back in time and save himself (and Buckbeak & Sirius). I'm so confused . . . Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From errolowl at yahoo.com Tue May 13 02:28:04 2003 From: errolowl at yahoo.com (errolowl) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:28:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and morality/ 12 uses of Dumbledore's omniscience In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030512184641.00977460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57729 I wrote, inter alia: > Cue for a "Dumbledore and Morality" essay, Gulplum And Gulplum rose to the occasion with: >>Ooh, a challenge (or at least, an invitation)! I *love* a challenge! I'm going to start with a potentially inflammatory statement: Dumbledore is a caricature. << Dumbledore as a caricature, and a confused caricature at that, eh? Umm, I'd agree with parts of that. He *is* set up to be the Mentor Figure/Literary Construct (LC), Surrogate Parent (SP), Leader of the Free World (LFW), and the ultimate authority/ Hogwarts Headmaster (HH). And when they conflict, Dumbledore does seem to favor LC > SP > LFW > HH. But I don't think Rowling compromised there with the chopping and changing, or that she even jumps around that much. I personally take it to mean that she has created a character with a definite sense of priorities. And the fact that Dumbledore values his roles of moral guidance over the role of Authority endears me to old Albus. Consequently, he may make a very odd Headmaster in the traditional sense... but the ideal mentor/ parent. Which in turn should make him an excellent head master in the sense of nurturing his pupils. And over all, he does a pretty good job. If he `stumbles' sometimes in areas of expressing authority (the twins and the Forbidden forest, reproaching Harry for breaking rules) it is not so much a stumble/contradiction as a statement of his priorities and view of life. For an authority figure, he apparently doesn't think much of authority. The "Leader of the Free world" role is more difficult to plug into his priorities. Should he value it more than mentoring the kids under him? (and I don't think Harry is the only one he mentors ? think Hagrid). Where does the trio's health and safety rank when compared to keeping Voldemort away from the philosopher's stone? How does he balance those roles? In Harry's case it's relatively easy because the boundaries blur, but what about the other kids in the school? Even around Harry, the Mentor/ SP roles predominate since Harry is still a kid. To an adult wizard helping him fight Voldemort, LFW might appear to be the defining priority. Gulplum: >>Now, had Dumbledore's character been entirely consistent and his decisions and actions comprehensible (not to mention morally justifiable) from all four perspectives, JKR would have created a literary character of mammoth proportions. As things stand mid- series, he's a fake who reveals his fictional roots at every turn. Regardless of the plot twists ahead, nothing will change the fact that his decisions cannot be said to be truly adult, and consistent with his role as the authorial voice of morality in every respect. On the other hand, this makes the character fascinating for speculating what lies ahead, because although not all of his actions are "right", and those undertaken in his role as the literary construct of mentor and moral guide are those which should guide us, his alternative personas are just as able to make the right decisions at the right time<< Dumbledore is a believable character because he grapples with priorities in his own life, is forced to make decisions according to his beliefs instead of his formally defined roles, and is fallible as he tries to juggle all his duties. That's the Dumbledore I like ? that truly awesome literary creation of JKR's. He is a caricature who doesn't act too much like a caricature, a fictional fake who is closer to reality than even he might guess . I agree that ever- consistent-Dumbledore, like Omniscient!Dumbledore, would have been a mammoth figurehead for the "Mentor" stereotype in fiction.But the fallible Dumbledore stands as a mammoth character in JKR's universe, refusing to quite fit into the stereotype's mould. Which is precisely why nearly-omniscient-Dumbledore irritates me. Here is a nice old chap using his powers as wisely as he knows how ? and nearly everyone expects him to be all-powerful, all- knowing, and morally perfect. He knows a great deal, and it's awesome that he knows as much as he does. But to postulate that he *ought* to know everything and then accuse him for missing something? ? as I said, poor, poor Albus. But, yes, the idea that he is Omniscient is attractive, and even encouraged by JKR. (there! another reason to mistrust it!) Gulplum proposed: >>In terms of morality, these three roles rest uneasily on the same pair of shoulders, regardless of their breadth. It is partially because Dumbledore jumps between these roles with apparent ease that we (readers) have the impression of omniscience, omnipresence, infallibility and invincibility.<< Yep, that could well be it. In fact it is so firmly entrenched in us now, that even if *he* say's he didn't know, we would rather question his truthfulness or interpret shades of gray in his statements, than take his word for it! I've been guilty of this far too often I wrote: >>But Dumbledore is only human. Here's a man who makes a multitude of hiring mistakes, is an accessory to breaking major wizarding laws, sometimes mis-times his awarding of points ever so slightly, gets decoyed by fake letters, needs glasses, has absolutely no radar for illegal animagi, doesn't know the extents of his own castle, has no control over the actions of mean or cowardly people, and either can't see or can't fix all the loopholes in his school's defenses. And there's more where that came from.<< Lynn objected, and Abigail responded: >> I hope Errol doesn't mind me jumping in << Oh, not at all Abi! Delighted to have you do so! Lynn: >>How do you know Dumbledore doesn't know the extent of the castle?<< Abigail: >>Because he says so himself in GoF. << Lynn: >>Yes, Dumbledore does say that to Karkaroff at the Yule Ball. Indeed Dumbledore may not know all the secrets, however, that may also be Dumbledore's 'modesty'. I see it much the same way as when Dumbledore concedes to Madame Maxime that he may have made a mistake with his Age line. Or, perhaps it was a way to lead into a description of 'The Room'. I believe that was actually foreshadowing, a way to tell Harry about the room in an understated way. << Oh, of course Lynn. I agree. It *may* be his modesty, or a subtle hint for Harry. But you agree that those are just surmises. And till that time that it is confirmed in canon, I prefer to believe Dumbledore here. After all, he may be speaking the plain truth, and the wink at Harry would be sly acknowledgement of the, er, `awkward' example he chose to use. (note: I'm *not* saying any other interpretations are wrong ? in that case this list could not possibly have gone beyond a paltry 10,000 posts! :) I am merely pointing out that the tendency to credit Dumbledore with nearly omniscient powers as assumed pseudo-canon status, when it might be a fallacy after all.) There is also the fact that he didn't know where the Chamber of Secrets was. If he had, one assumes he would have done something before. Lynn: >>What do you mean he has no control over the actions of mean or cowardly people or can't see or fix loopholes?.<< Lynn: >> what I really meant by this question was what exactly was meant by no control over the actions. Unless someone is under the Imperious Curse, no one has control over someone's else's actions. People chose their actions for themselves. If, however, what was meant was no control over the consequences of people's actions, that's different.<< This was initially stated more tongue in cheek really (like the glasses!), since, yeah, it is a given that you cannot really control people (unless you use unethical means that Dumbledore just *wont*). No one, including Dumbledore, can control other people. He is not omnipotent. He doesn't have handy solutions to ethical dilemmas. A side note here: if convincing Fudge of Sirius's innocence were at all possible, consider the dilemma ? unethical hypnotism/ magical persuasion by Dumbledore, Vs. the death of an innocent man. Would Dumbledore do it? Could Dumbledore do it? We will never know now cause JKR found another way out. Again, here I believe that Dumbledore *could* have done it but didn't but that's just a belief. But as for the loopholes ? why, I meant the security problems plaguing Hogwarts to start with! There's Quirrelmort, his troll, Charlie's friends, Dobby, Sirius, Fake!Moody and his portkey...they all just breeze in and out of a place that is reputed to be more secure than the Bank of England, oops, Gringotts. Dumbledore apparently cannot secure Hogwarts. Now, yes, he might have consciously allowed these infiltrations, but it's somewhat odd to first expect Dumbledore to be infallible, then work so hard to explain away contradictions by proposing a deeper plan behind them. Possible, even probable...but not canon..yet. And the loophole with the goblet was that Crouch could actually get out a fourth champion for a *tri*wizard tournament! There was a loophole in Dumbledore's precautions in keeping away underage wizards. Lynn: (now wondering if the teachers get their own personal toilet or are left wandering around the school looking for the teacher's toilet all night.) Errol. Laughing hard. :) From hp at plum.cream.org Tue May 13 02:53:00 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 03:53:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <01bb01c318f6$52984c40$529fcdd1@RVotaw> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030513033038.00997280@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57730 Richelle Votaw admitted her brain already hurts before trying to understand time travel when she asked: >what I can't understand is how Harry escaped in the first place from the >dementor to go back and save himself. The dementor is bending over him and >suddenly the patronus comes and he sees what he thinks is his dad, but is >himself. But how did he get away from the dementor to get to the time >turner to go back in time and save himself (and Buckbeak & Sirius). From the perspective of an outside observer, there were two people. The person casting the Patronus was a separate person from the person writhing on the ground. The person casting the Patronus knew that the Patronus saved the person writhing on the ground. The person writhing on the ground had no idea (or rather, the wrong idea) about who it was that had saved him. The fact that both people happened to be Harry is incidental. The fact that Harry's survival from the Dementor is what permitted him to go back in time is equally incidental. :-) The thing I love the most about the sequence is that Harry confirms exactly what had happened when he says later on that "I knew I could do it this time because I'd already done it". Harry, writhing on the ground, sees a powerful Patronus. Later on, (time-turned)Harry, realising that the person casting the Patronus is himself, knows that he has it in himself to cast a powerful Patronus. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who has no idea if that makes things clearer or not. :-) From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 13 03:19:56 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 03:19:56 -0000 Subject: So long as we're talking about time travel... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57731 Something else that has always bothered me... When Harry and Hermione go back in time, they are standing in the hospital wing. Dumbledore has just locked them in. When Hermione turns the hourglass three times, they end up in the Entrance Hall. Now, JKR can create whatever rules she wants for her world, so long as she's consistent within that world. She doesn't have to follow any other established time travel fiction rules. BUT... many of the classic Time Travel stories, such as the Time Machine and Back to the Future, use the "change time, not place" theory. Under that theory, you go back in time, but you don't move. If they could somehow turn the Time Turner back 1,000,000 times, they would go back 1,000,000 hours, or about 114 years, but they would be in the hospital wing of Hogwarts, 114 years back. Darrin -- It's JKR's world. I'm just reading it. From ultimatesen at aol.com Tue May 13 03:24:13 2003 From: ultimatesen at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 03:24:13 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley, Professor of COMC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57732 wrote: > I don't recall any mention of the COMC position even existing until > Hagrid was appointed to fill it, and so I was left with the impression that the position was created both to fill a need and to give Hagrid a more respectable job. Me: Dumblydore says during the first feast (when he's appointing Hagrid) something about the past professor wanting to enjoy the rest of his fingers and is retiring (major paraphrase). I don't think it was a "created" job for Hagrid. There are other classes introduced in PoA that we hadn't heard of yet. This is the grade in which the students start taking more elective classes rather than the required core classes. Take Divination and Runes for example. =o) Sen From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue May 13 06:04:31 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 06:04:31 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57733 Valky wrote: First I would like to make reference to the question, Why didn't Dumbledore use the time turner to save James and Lily? On the contrary I think he did use a time turner. To save Harry. Well actually Dumbledore sent Hagrid with the time turner. *proof* There is no mention of the transport he took to Godrics Hollow. In order to get out in time he needed to borrow a vehicle. Hagrid is not a small man. I assume he arrived on foot, so, it is unlikely Dumbledore sent him running after hearing that Lily and James were slain. I suspect a 50 plus year old half-giant is not particularly fleet-footed lol. Me: I do not believe the lack of a mention of Hagrid's transportation to Godric's Hollow is proof that Dumbledore used the Time Turner. There are far more plausible ways he could have gone there. When Hagrid comes to Harry on the rock in the sea, he tells Harry that he flew there. This could mean several things: he flew on a broom (there's an unwieldy mental image!) or, since he didn't have a broom when he entered the hut, he could have been using 'flew' to refer to illegal Apparition (we know that Hagrid is not above doing magic illegally, even when he hasn't been given special permission for the day, *nudge nudge*). Another possibility is that Harry heard 'flew,' but Hagrid SAID 'Floo.' So Hagrid may have reached Harry on that little island by taking Floo to the nearest wizard residence or business, and then found other transport from there (although Apparating is still more likely, as there was only the one boat on the island, the one that the Dursleys and Harry had used to get there). Or he could have used a combination of Floo and then Apparating from the coast to the island, as a shorter distance might be easier for someone who doesn't do this much (assuming that Hagrid wasn't constantly breaking the law in this way). So we already have a case in canon of Hagrid getting around in a slightly mysterious way without a Time Turner needing to be involved. It's far more likely that he used the same method earlier, to go to Godric's Hollow. However, even if he Apparated to Godric's Hollow, he would have needed to use Sirius' motorbike to transport Harry to Surrey because there's no evidence in canon that you can transport another person with you when you Apparate. If you could take someone else with you, Mr. Weasley and his older sons could have let the younger ones sort of 'hitchhike' along with them when they Apparated, instead of needing to use a Portkey for them. It's unnecessary to bring a Time-Turner into the situation at Godric's Hollow on 31 October, 1981, especially as a Time-Turner is an item that one must have permission to use, and they're probably all closely guarded by the Ministry. By the time Dumbledore would probably be able to get a requisition in for such a thing, everyone would know that Lily and James were dead and Harry was the Boy Who Lived, and he'd have to explain that he was planning to change time, and so wouldn't be permitted to use it. Valky wrote: Fidelius Charm. Who could unlock the power of the Charm. While the Potters still lived the only people that could save them was Peter Pettigrew. *Though that does beg the question; Why, then, was it possible for Hagrid to find Harry? After all, the Fidelius Charm was his protection too. If he was not covered by it, why then couldn't LV just seek and find Harry Potter? Well, guessing that Lily or James charmed the secret themselves would explain why the power of the Fidelius vanished after their deaths. Most likely Lily, for if it were James, accordingly, Lily could also have been saved with Harry. Not by Hagrid ,however. Who was probably not a match for LV. Me: I'm not understanding your theories about the Fidelius Charm. From the little we know of it, the information about the location of the protected people (plural) is locked away inside the brain of the person who is the Secret Keeper. My own theory about this is that the Fidelius therefore has to act like a sort of mass-memory charm, and that the moment it is enacted, not only is the location only known by the Secret Keeper (and if you put your face against the window of the Potters' house, you wouldn't see them), but the charm must also therefore remove any memories of the location of that family's home from the minds of people who knew it previously. Upon the Secret Keeper revealing the information to ANYONE, the charm would be broken, and therefore, the buried memory would presumably float up to the consciousness of those who previously knew where that family lived. It could be that numerous people became aware all at once--Sirius, Dumbledore, Hagrid--that the charm was broken because they all suddenly remembered where the Potters lived. That would certainly explain why Hagrid was able to get Harry out so quickly. Peter may have known it would work that way and took Voldemort fairly close to the house before revealing which one it was precisely, so that they were basically already there when the spell was broken, knowing that they would have to work very quickly before the others realized why they remembered what they shouldn't and came to Godric's Hollow. Darrin wrote (in a post distressingly free of band names!): So, Dumbledore, before he suggested to Hermione that she use the Time-Turner, already KNEW that they would be successful? He'd already realized that Hermione and Harry had helped the critter escape -- because as soon as he saw that Buckbeak had escaped, he thought, "Well, I must have had them go back in time and they must have done everything right and they must have fought off the Dementors?" "I'd better remember to do that when I see Harry and Hermione again." Me: By Jove, I think you've got it! :D My theory is that the reason why Dumbledore thought that Harry and Hermione did this is that he saw them out of the rear window of Hagrid's hut and added it up in pretty much the way you suggested. He knew he was going to tell them to do this because he already had, basically. (A la Bill and Ted.) However, I still don't believe that in the Potterverse time cannot be changed. For the most part people seem to be of the opinion that it SHOULDN'T, and the Time-Turner itself has severe limitations, but the fact that Hermione warns Harry that wizards who had fooled around with time (she doesn't say with Time-Turners, but TIME, so there must be other ways to do time travel) had killed their past or future selves. Now, if they killed their future selves, no time paradox would be necessary. You simply have a scenario of a) wizard kills an older version of himself (that he perhaps did not realize was him because he looked significantly different); b) wizard realizes over time that he in fact killed himself; c) wizard endeavors to avoid time travel so that he won't kill himself; d) through circumstances he can't control, wizard is flung back in time and ends up killing himself. No paradox in this scenario. However--Hermione says that some killed their PAST selves. This would need a new timeline. If a wizard lives his life, perfectly normally, then at the age of sixty travels back in time to when he was twenty and kills himself--then he'd never get to be sixty and a new timeline would be created at the moment that he killed himself. So unless Hermione misspoke when she said that wizards had killed their past AND future selves, it is in fact possible to change timelines, because the wizards who had killed their past selves would have done exactly that. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Tue May 13 07:59:06 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:59:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clue for the "ancient protection?" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57734 >From: "Kelly Grosskreutz" > > > > > Rosebeth: > > I'm at work, without the books, but as I recall this conversation > > happening with Harry and Dudley still standing in the room. I'm not > > sure that I believe that Petunia is protecting Harry. I think she's > > just continuing the convesation ignoring the fact that Harry is right > > there. My guess is that she doesn't want to leave him home alone, > > because she knows that it's something Harry wants. I believe at the > > begining of this conversation we are told that they always have > > conversations about Harry, in front of him as if he wasn't there at > > all. > > >Kelly (me): > >I've seen a few people say this, so thought I would reply. Upon both >Vernon >and Petunia seeing the letter, Vernon shooed both Dudley and Harry out of >the kitchen and shut the door. They were both listening by the door >(Dudley >at the keyhole, Harry through the crack under the door). Granted, they >might have had an inkling the boys were there, but they weren't actually >standing in the room, so there's less of a chance they might think of them >listening without them being physically in the room. > Rosebeth (me again): Since I'm home now with the books close at hand I thought I would try and clarify. Unfortunately, I did to good of a job of snip the previous posts. But here goes. The previous posts discuss the conversation with Vernon and Petunia when Mrs. Figg broke her leg. Mrs. Figg was going to babysit Harry while they took Dudley to the zoo. Pages 22-23 of SS US Ed details this conversation. After stating that Marge and Yvonne are unavailable Harry offers to stay home alone. This plan is rejected because Petunia doesn't want to come home and find the house in ruins. They discuss bringing Harry to the zoo and leaving him in the car. Dudley pitches a fit until his friend arrives and off they go. Clearly Harry and Dudley are in the room for this conversation. While you are absolutely correct that Harry and Dudley listened in from the hall to the conversation regarding Harry's Hogwarts letter. This tread was not about the letter but rather why Petunia wouldn't let Harry stay home while they went to the zoo. Rosebeth I meant no offense, just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page (well close to the same page anyway). _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From lissbell at colfax.com Tue May 13 03:07:57 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:07:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces References: <1DAD3742-84D9-11D7-8508-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: <3EC0618D.C2533884@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57735 Mycropht wrote: > > I call my theory "Not Really". > > I don't see her returning to that particular Deux Ex Machina to > > "solve" her overall story. At least I hope not. Dan replied: > I'm right there with ya! I was actually quite disappointed when she > introduced the time travel bit in the first place. It opens up too many > problems and introduces the blatantly obvious question: "Why didn't > McGonagall or DD just jump back in time to save the Potters?" > > Once you go down that "time travel" road you have a hell of a time > keeping things in check.... [snipped some of Dan's discussion] > > I honestly think it would have been better if JKR just hadn't gone > there. Lissa replied: Hi Dan. I've just got to ask you this. (I'm fearful, however, that my words might come across as sarcastic, so I'm imploring you right now to please imagine me typing them with a calm, humble, but weary smile. Really. I tend to have the same reaction to plots using time-travel that, apparently, you do.) Since you grant that time travel introduces potential chaos in a writer's fictional universe, why would JKR bring in the silly thing to accomplish ends that could just as easily have been achieved without time travel? Did Hermione really *need* to be present for every class? Couldn't she have simply alternated days she attended those overlapping courses and worked doubly hard to keep up with the other students? Couldn't Buckbeak, menacing Malfoy-thirsty creature that he is, simply have broken free in a fit of blood, feathers and violence? Couldn't Sirius have escaped the Dementor's kiss in a dozen other ways? Rowling controls the flow of her story. None of these plot situations required time travel *at all*. I have to ask again, why oh why oh *why* would she introduce it? She's built amazing suspense in the other novels without resorting to time tricks. I don't think you can legitimately argue she used such an extreme plot device just to generate a little tension. Or, well, maybe you can... (smiles) I just think it'd be silly. I guess what I'm trying to point out here is that JRK's use of time travel in PoA almost mandates that the device play a crucial role in the series. Otherwise she's done the equivalent of putting a big old ocean liner in her story--a ship so ugly and cumbersome that no reader can ignore it--then using it to move a passenger from one dock to another about two hundred feet away. Okay, it's not *impossible* that she pulled time travel into her series just for its use in PoA and will refrain from employing it again. It could be a red herring. But if it is, it's the most swollen and silly bird of that species that I've encountered in all my years of reading fiction. I think it's more absurd to conclude that Rowling is *not* going to make serious use of time travel in the series than to conclude that she is. Oh man how I wish I didn't have to argue this sort of stuff. It makes the serious writer and reader in me feel all icky inside. :) Defender of extreme silliness, Lissa From flenser at hotmail.com Tue May 13 03:36:37 2003 From: flenser at hotmail.com (fauxwen) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 03:36:37 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030513033038.00997280@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > The thing I love the most about the sequence is that Harry confirms exactly > what had happened when he says later on that "I knew I could do it this > time because I'd already done it". Harry, writhing on the ground, sees a > powerful Patronus. Later on, (time-turned)Harry, realising that the person > casting the Patronus is himself, knows that he has it in himself to cast a > powerful Patronus. > > -- > GulPlum AKA Richard, who has no idea if that makes things clearer or not. :-) No, it makes perfect sense! I get it now! Everything that has happened in the books has *happened already*, and a time-turner can't change that; otherwise, it would create a paradox. For example, if Harry decided to use a time-turner to go back and save Lily and James, he would fail *because in Harry's future Lily and James are dead.* Whatever he did or didn't do in the past would not change the outcome that necessarily must occur. --fauxwen, restating GulPlum's theory in gratitude for its simplicity From lissbell at colfax.com Tue May 13 03:53:11 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:53:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Adopted!Harry is Really TTTR References: Message-ID: <3EC06C27.84CD8CE7@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57737 "asandhp" said a whole lot which can be summed up > as > > >>The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for > > Harry to be Voldemort himself.<< fauxwen replied: > But how do you explain the fact that Harry was able to pull > Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat? Remember, "only a true > Gryffindor ..." etc.? Lissa replied: I haven't been able to find anything in the novels that suggests a person couldn't be both a true Heir of Gryffindor and a true Heir of Slytherin. JKR hasn't explained that honor fully, but assuming it's merely a matter of lineage, all that would be necessary is a family tree drawn directly from both founders. If it's a matter of underlying personal character, then that's a bit more challenging. If I understand asandhp's theory properly, though, there would be two seperate incarnations of Potter/Riddle in the Potterverse. HP and Tom M. Riddle don't share upbringings. The different environments could sculpt two very different people out of an identical core self. That's not to say I agree with asandhp's theory, but I do find it gorgeous, creative, and an absolute wonder to consider. Cheers, Lissa From hp at plum.cream.org Tue May 13 08:46:59 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:46:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] So long as we're talking about time travel... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030513093319.00970c10@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57738 Darrin: >Now, JKR can create whatever rules she wants for her world, so long >as she's consistent within that world. She doesn't have to follow any >other established time travel fiction rules. > >BUT... many of the classic Time Travel stories, such as the Time >Machine and Back to the Future, use the "change time, not place" >theory. As Hermione's little jaunts throughout the year indicated, the Time-Turner puts the subject close to wherever they were at the time of arrival. Close enough to be able to dissemble, not so close as to bump into their earlier self, and not so far away that should they be seen by someone, they wouldn't ask "how the hell did you get here?" (which, even so, was asked of Hermione on one occasion). Like *so* many things in the Potterverse, you land up in *just* the right spot. :-) (incidentally, Monita should bear this in mind with regard to her little "Hagrid Time-Turned to Godric's Hollow" theory she posited yesterday - if he'd used a Time Turner, it would have deposited him wherever he had been at the time of the attack! Or is Monita saying that Hagrid was the Fifth Man?) :-) I'm not an astrophysicist, but as it happens, considering the earth is rotating around itself and the sun, and the solar system around itself (etc, etc), in terms of absolute position, I expect you're quite a distance away from where you were a few moments ago. So "Same place" in all of those classic Time Travel stories is nothing of the sort. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who recently got up after less than 3 hours' sleep and feels like it - Time Turner would be handy! From lissbell at colfax.com Tue May 13 05:49:31 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:49:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adopted!Harry is =?iso-8859-1?Q?Really=85=2E?= TTTR References: <3EC04EAF.C630EF82@colfax.com> Message-ID: <3EC0876B.D194E43A@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57739 In response to asandhp's Harry=Voldemort theory Lissa replied a second time: Hi again, asandhp. (If you prefer to be called The Admiring Skeptic, do let me know! As a clueless newbie, I just don't know these important things. Also, if I shouldn't be replying to my own post to extend it, kind List Elf, please tell me the proper protocol.) Having read others' replies and concluded that your theory truly does entail a complete life for Baby Riddle and for Harry Potter, I must meekly object. As GulPlum (aka Richard) noted in the thread on Time Travel, Rowling's universe doesn't appear to allow two opposing timelines to occur in the one universe. The results of an act committed during time travel appear to be unambiguous and absolute. If she'd meant to hint that events could co-exist in this single universal timeline--or even that you could actually change the past--she should have shown that Buckbeak originally died. She also should not have shown Harry Potter seeing himself launch his patronus. *If* two alternate realities coexisting is possible in the Potterverse, JKR has been a bit sloppy in not indicating it. Now for something more psychological and nebulous. Let's assume Harry *is* Voldemort: then the fully grown adult Voldemort *knows* this. What are the emotional ramifications of this knowledge? I think he would hate his alternate self with a rage and venom that could scarcely be *contained* by a human body. Voldemort would *know* that *he* could have turned out to be this beloved Gryffindor hero that everyone lauds when, in Voldemort's own estimation, Harry is nothing but a pathetic, weak, disgusting waste of his own flesh and godlike potential. The man would be both insanely jealous and bitterly ashamed. His hatred of Harry Potter would be SO personal and SO intense that, in my opinion, it would take every ounce of restraint in Voldemort's body for him not to spend days torturing HP with crucio and red-hot daggers while mocking Harry's life choices until the young boy broke down and shrieked. In my opinion, there is no way, given your theory, that Voldemort could casually dispatch Harry Potter with a public avada kedavra in the cemetery in GoF. The Voldemort in your theory is a gloating god-aspiring maniac. He could not *help* but drag his pitiful alter self into a private area and confess all his grand plans--and take every opportunity possible to tell Harry how small and insignificant and shameful he, Harry, was. LV's ego would not be satisfied with anything less than making Harry suffer the knowledge of the terrible truth. Of course, you can disagree with me on this. :) I also think--given that Voldemort believes he's about to kill Harry in GoF--that he'd smugly make *some* allusion to the fact he was about transform into a god right before the DE's eyes. Then again, maybe your theory holds that there are still a few more steps to be taken before divinity ensues. If so, nevermind. :) In my opinion Voldemort also subtly acknowledges a genetic connection between Harry and James in the cemetery when he notes that Harry's father died "straight-backed and proud" and hints that he wants the same of Harry. If Harry has no genetic tie to James Potter *and* LV knows Harry wasn't raised by James, there is no reason for LV to expect Harry's behavior should in any way echo James'. You could, however, argue that LV is just being a jerk. It'd kind of be in character for him. (grin) I still find your theory inexpressibly groovy. I just sigh at its loveliness. (Yeah--even though it conflicts with my own theory.) If you can find a way to make an HP=LV theory workable *without* Harry Potter being adopted and *without* Voldemort knowing that Potter is himself, then I'd be able to consider it. (Once upon a time before I found my own hypothesis last summer, I used to wonder on occasion if HP couldn't be LV. I never could come up with a canonically acceptable way to make it happen.) Respectfully intrigued, Lissa From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue May 13 06:21:25 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 06:21:25 -0000 Subject: So long as we're talking about time travel... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57740 "darrin" wrote: > > When Harry and Hermione go back in time, they are standing in the > hospital wing. Dumbledore has just locked them in. > > When Hermione turns the hourglass three times, they end up in the > Entrance Hall. > > Now, JKR can create whatever rules she wants for her world, so long > as she's consistent within that world. She doesn't have to follow any > other established time travel fiction rules. > > BUT... many of the classic Time Travel stories, such as the Time > Machine and Back to the Future, use the "change time, not place" > theory. Earth is not as still as some of us might want to believe. It rotates - so that the place where you're now was a bit east just a while ago, a bit more 3 hours ago. Further, if you moved back in time for 6 months, but not place, you'd end up in empty space just opposite side of Earth's track around the Sun... and the Sun's not still, either, it's orbiting around the centre of the Milky Way Galaxy, and the Galaxy orbits arond the centre of Galaxy group etc... No, for time travel to be of any use, you *must* change place, too! Then, we should also consider the matter of the moving Hogwarts. Stairs move(Harry & Ron were on them once they did that). Proffessor Binns, the slave of habit, comes out from the blackboard. I think he does that because the door was THERE when he was alive, and he's so much into the habit that he won't stop just because the door happened to move! So, there's a bit of moving Hogwarts, a bit of choosing the place AND time, so that you don't startle anyone, you want to end up in an inhabited place where you're not seen... -- Finwitch From lissbell at colfax.com Tue May 13 07:24:30 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:24:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel Paradoces References: Message-ID: <3EC09DAE.7CD49180@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57741 (snipping Valky's discussion of time travel) Barb wrote: > It's unnecessary to bring a Time-Turner into the situation at > Godric's Hollow on 31 October, 1981, especially as a Time-Turner is > an item that one must have permission to use, and they're probably > all closely guarded by the Ministry. Lissa replied: Time travel that night may be unnecessary, but I find it odd that Rowling describes the "very odd watch" Dumbledore pulls from his pocket in Ch 1 of the first book with such extended and loving detail. The description just sticks out. Maybe it's nothing. (shrug) But maybe that watch is more than a watch. If this has already been mentioned elsewhere, please ignore my redundancy. Barb wrote: > So unless Hermione misspoke when > she said that wizards had killed their past AND future selves, it is > in fact possible to change timelines, because the wizards who had > killed their past selves would have done exactly that. Lissa replied: I was thoroughly convinced earlier this evening by another post that the Potterverse timeline is inherently static. Now I'm not so sure. Still, I think the fact that Hermione is able to claim that wizards have accidentally killed their pasts selves suggests that some type of paradox effect kicked in that rejected these murders as final, allowable facts in the Potter universe. If the deaths were lasting ones, how would time-magic scholars know that such events had occurred? Who would exist to say that the time travel--that would now never take place--had in fact happened in the original timeline? (And then the paradox starts cycling because if the time travel never happened, the former self never got killed and ouch, my head!) I can no longer say with any faith that I understand Rowling's time travel laws, but I think if she'd meant readers to believe the past could be changed, she'd have made it apparent Buckbeak had originally died--Hermione's statement notwithstanding. But I wouldn't bet a gumball on it. Charred and useless brain cells leaking from her ears, Lissa From maialaia at yahoo.com Tue May 13 08:10:53 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Astronomy DEPARTMENT? (also numbers fo students) In-Reply-To: <7CCC3F10-769A-11D7-80AB-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: <20030513081053.84494.qmail@web10410.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57742 --- Dan Delaney wrote: > There's an entire DEPARTMENT for Astronomy? Just how > many astronomy > teachers are there? Well, for the record - I went to a private school that was much smaller than Hogwarts seems to be....That being said - I don't remember any exact number being given for the number of students at Hogwarts. I'm sure it's been discussed though - what was the verdict? But my school was about 430 students total and we had an Astronomy Dept with three teachers. ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From maialaia at yahoo.com Tue May 13 08:43:33 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Arts at Hogwarts/Music in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513084333.73403.qmail@web10401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57743 --- luv_lotr2 wrote: > Does it see odd to anyone else, but me, that > Hogwarts is lacking in > the arts? No music, literature or artistry hardly > at all! You have NO IDEA how much angst this gives me. No. Idea. It also brings up questions I've had about pop-culture in general...Are there Wizard Radios? Wizard Rockstars? How is music disseminated into the masses in the Wizarding world? The one good thing abouthte vaugeness/lack of info on music/art at Hogwarts is that I don't have to worry about cannon when I write fic about it. But still. Did I mention the part where it gives me piles of annngst? ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From maialaia at yahoo.com Tue May 13 09:09:34 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Attitudes, Plants (was Re: Questions concerning Snape and Lucius/ DADA subbing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513090934.22296.qmail@web10407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57744 --- darrin_burnett wrote: > And if Snape is so insecure as to feel threatened by > a first-year who > has been living with the Muggliest Muggles anyone > has ever seen, then > that says loads more about Snape's character than it > does Harry's. At this point I find it hard to belive that Snape hates Harry solely because of the James keeping Snape from Lupin incedent....either that or I'm just deluding myself that Snape has redemable qualities. I think I *want* to like Snape so much I tend to cling to ideas along the lines of "Well Hagrid said he was okay" or "Well Dumbledore trusts him...." Maybe I just need to admit he's a big nelly brat? > > > > I think Snape also sees Malfoy as sort of a > younger version of > himself - > > another talented and potentially powerful wizard > who's getting > overshadowed > > by a Potter, and that's why he tend to favour > Malfoy as much as he > does. Ahhhhh! My hat is off to you. It's given me a lot of angst in the past trying ot figure out WHY the heck Snape is so nice to Malfoy. I would think that he wouldn't like him, given who Draco's father is: High Mucky-Muck in the group that Snape betrayed... Maybe Snape's just trying to cover his ass in case the Dark Lord makes a comeback? "Awww - don't sacrifice me Lucius! See how nice to your SON I was?!? C'mon...." DrMM wrote: >I mean, if we're saying that the publishers halted >production of the Fantastic Beats Personally I think Professor Sprout NEEDS a book called "Fantastic Beets." *ducks and covers* ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Tue May 13 09:55:41 2003 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:55:41 -0000 Subject: Clue for the "ancient protection?" In-Reply-To: <002601c318a1$f24dc490$4accaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57745 > Kelly: > > Good point, and this could be another factor in their decision. But I still > think Petunia's word choice should not be ignored. She specifically mentions > coming back and finding the house in ruins. She does not say, "And come > back and find out you've blown up the house?" The first statement just > gives a potential state for the house, but does not say that Harry will be > the one to destroy the house. If she had said the latter, then it would > have shown she was afraid Harry's powers might escape him and he might blow > up the house for some reason. I think her word choice in that section was > key. Maria: Hmmm, first post! I feel a little intimidated coming here, because you're all so brilliant... I feel very stupid, lol. Ok... *takes a deep breath... don't kill me! I'm reading the English edition of PS right now and I agree with Kelly. It seems very sus that Petunia choose those words, then to point the finger at Harry and say that 'he' would destroy the house. So she might've known something about the protection or the danger Harry was in, that maybe she kept from Vernon. It's interesting to note that Harry had never heard about the letter which Dumbledore had placed by his side when they laid him down on the steps that nighthe first appeared at Privet drive. The letter might have had something stating about the Protection... telling the Dursleys to keep Harry safe from harm or even something else. But Vernon might never have been told about the letter. Afterall the first person to see Harry was Petunia. This ancient Protection, is something we've been discussing on another forum. This magic would be simple... For example Harry's mother did not use any wand magic, but sacraficed herself, giving her son ancient- yet powerful protection from Voldemort. So what if the act of being near a family or one person with non dangerous intentions for that matter encircles Harry with protection? Sure the Dursleys provide Protection, for Harry and the Weasleys also... but Mrs. Figg could play a role in providing Ancient Magic within the whole street in general, so Dark Magic cannot penetrate the bounderies of the street. However I think there is a couple of key points in GOF: Dragons also Have ancient Magic surrounding them and yet this Ancient Magic can be penetrated by 6-7 wizards. Harry's ancient protection that was given from his mother was taken away from him and now Voldemort can touch him. So if these protections can be destroyed... then wouldn't Voldemort eventually be able to break the rotection in Privet drive? If 6-7 wizards can bring down a fully protected Dragon who had been protected by ancient protection, think of what voldemort could do. Hope I didn't bore you. Tata. Maria From pisk at inuyasha.nu Tue May 13 10:56:54 2003 From: pisk at inuyasha.nu (piskmiffo) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:56:54 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57746 Barb: > No paradox in this scenario. However--Hermione says that some > killed their PAST selves. This would need a new timeline. If a > wizard lives his life, perfectly normally, then at the age of sixty > travels back in time to when he was twenty and kills himself--then > he'd never get to be sixty and a new timeline would be created at > the moment that he killed himself. So unless Hermione misspoke when > she said that wizards had killed their past AND future selves, it is > in fact possible to change timelines, because the wizards who had > killed their past selves would have done exactly that. > pisk: Does a mortal wound count? Let's say a Wizard wakes up in an alley, with no memory of last night and extremely hurt (hehe, let's ignore the wizard world's ability to heal people easily!). They tell him that he will only live for 2 more weeks. So he takes a chance, he goes back in time to either stop whatever was attacking him. But for some reason he accidently hurts his past self, and realizing this he goes to the ministry of magic (or whoever) and tells them in agony "Aaah, I killed myself! How tragic! Fate has a sense of irony!". Then he dies. Sure, it's an annoying and stupid theory, but no paradox. :) /pisk From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 13 11:29:28 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:29:28 -0000 Subject: So long as we're talking about time travel... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57747 Finwitch wrote: > > Earth is not as still as some of us might want to believe. It > rotates - so that the place where you're now was a bit east just a > while ago, a bit more 3 hours ago. Further, if you moved back in time > for 6 months, but not place, you'd end up in empty space just > opposite side of Earth's track around the Sun... and the Sun's not > still, either, it's orbiting around the centre of the Milky Way > Galaxy, and the Galaxy orbits arond the centre of Galaxy group etc... > No, for time travel to be of any use, you *must* change place, too! > Remember, the Time Machine and Back to the Future put you EXACTLY in the spot, one can presume it moved you enough to compensate for the Earth's rotation. (And I don't know that the Earth would rotate just enough for Harry and Hermione to be right near the Entrance Hall closet, either. Why wouldn't it just splinch them into a wall?) Then, we should also consider the matter of the moving Hogwarts. > Stairs move(Harry & Ron were on them once they did that). Proffessor Binns, the slave of habit, comes out from the blackboard. I think he does that because the door was THERE when he was alive, and he's so much into the habit that he won't stop just because the door happened > to move! Again, Hogwarts would move them just enough? Nah, I like the "Close Enough" theory put forward by GulPlum better. Awfully darn convenient it put them right next to the Entrance Hall though, dontcha think? Darrin -- Close Enough would be a really good bad name. Sorry I've been lax. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue May 13 13:39:09 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:39:09 -0000 Subject: So long as we're talking about time travel... In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030513093319.00970c10@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > As Hermione's little jaunts throughout the year indicated, the Time- Turner puts the subject close to wherever they were at the time of arrival. > (incidentally, Monita should bear this in mind with regard to her little > "Hagrid Time-Turned to Godric's Hollow" theory she posited yesterday - if > he'd used a Time Turner, it would have deposited him wherever he had been > at the time of the attack! Or is Monita saying that Hagrid was the Fifth > Man?) :-) Valky writes:LOl No, sorry no fifth man here. What I am speculating is that Dumbledore and Hagrid travelled to Godrics Hollow after James and Lily were AK'd and found it empty. Dumbledore, with his sage knowledge of time *a'la Buckbeak*, surmised that Harrys mysterious absence could be because Hagrid Time turned back and took him before they got there. So he handed Hagrid the time turner, said make five turns get the boy, make ten turns in the other direction then go straight to Privet Drive. I shall meet you there. There is no definitive canon, to my knowledge, saying that Hagrid wouldn't have landed right there in the vicinity of Godrics Hollow just after the incedent. Has anybody travelled a distance, yet, in the books, from where they where at the time of arrival and timeturned? Although it is plausible to interpret Hermione's experience the way Gul has, the canon does not exclude destination relating closely to the point of origin, or that one simply ends up in the *right place*. By arriving after Voldies demise Hagrid is safe from attack by him, and just in time to get the infant and time turn back out to safety. In case you are wondering if I have forgotten the bike, it is no consequence really, either he made the ten turns with the bike? (don't know if its possible but if it is Harry has had a day of his life taken from him there :D more speculation on the moral question Harry faces in future books) or he simply rode the bike to Privet Drive instead. From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Tue May 13 13:58:45 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:58:45 -0500 Subject: avada kedavra Message-ID: <01b501c31957$c5cb73c0$814053d1@SaalsD> No: HPFGUIDX 57749 Last night, just before I fell off to sleep, I was thinking about a scene in the second movie that shall not be named. Lucius stalks toward Harry with wand extended and hisses out what sounds to me like "avada." At that point I fell asleep and my mind wandered back to GoF, the graveyard scene. Harry is standing there before LV who is about to finish his off with avada kedavra. LV yells "avada kedavra" and the same time Harry yells "Expelliarmus!" BUT! That curse didn't work on Harry the last time he tried it, what makes him think it's going to work this time? Getting his body back and a little protection from Harry's blood doesn't change the fact that the AK curse bounces off Harry. Grace [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue May 13 14:00:12 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:00:12 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Diagon Alley / Buy, Buy, Buy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57750 Diagon Alley / Buy, Buy, Buy (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Kansas City / Hey Hey Hey_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://lighthouse.nsys.by:8101/music/midi/Beatles/ Dedicated to Oryomai Molly Rocks! Molly Weasley (The Weasley children singing backup) Ah, Diagon Alley Going there to get some shopping done Yeah, yeah We're going to Diagon Alley Going to get some shopping done Yeah, yeah Well, the entrance is behind The Leaky Cauldron Ah, Diagon Alley Going to have a real good time Yeah, yeah We're going to Diagon Alley Going to have a real good time Yeah, yeah With Arthur, Percy, Fred, George Ronald, Ginny and I Hey, hey, hey, hey (Hey, hey, hey, hey) Hey, Harry (Hey, Harry) Oooo, now dear (yeah, yeah) I said come right here (Harry) Now, now, now, now come on Harry We'll go by the floo Hey, hey, hey, hey (Hey, hey, hey, hey) Hey, Harry (Hey, Harry) Oooo, now dear (yeah, yeah) You have nothing to fear (Harry) Now, now, now, now don't be nervous We'll show you what to do There we'll buy (Buy, buy, buy, buy) All your school supplies (supplies, supplies) Although (Although, although) We ain't got much gold (No, gold, no gold) I said we'll buy supplies Buy, buy, buy, buy Diagon Alley (Diagon Alley) Diagon Alley (Diagon Alley) (Fade) -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue May 13 14:12:07 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:12:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Arts at Hogwarts/Music in the Wizarding World References: <20030513084333.73403.qmail@web10401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57751 Watch, and be amazed, ladies and gentlemen as I, Dan, likely embarass myself to no end! Our most beautiful and illustrious Entwife wrote: It also brings up questions I've had about pop-culture in general...Are there Wizard Radios? Wizard Rockstars? How is music disseminated into the masses in the Wizarding world? Me: Regarding radios, yes. Regarding rockstars, yes. Regarding music being disseminated, see radios. Now, I do hope I'm not being contaminated by fanfiction (oh. dear. god.) by IIRC, there's a little something called the World Wizarding Wireless, and we first saw it at the Burrow. I could be very much mistaken, but that's me for you. About rockstars, absolutely: The Weird Sisters (and their male guitarist) play at the Yule Ball in GoF, and are clearly famous musicians. So, there we are. I'm off to lurk. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 13 14:29:36 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:29:36 -0000 Subject: Filch & Secret Passages (was:Re: Floo/head-in-the-fireplace ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > If LMPP can figure out how to become Animagi, find secret passages > out of the castle that to this day not even Filch has found and > create the Marauders Map which show every person on the grounds, why > couldn't they figure out how to do this? > > bowlwoman Just a quick question: How is *Filch* supposed to find the type of secret passage where you have to tap a statue with your *wand* and say the magic word? Only by spying, I suppose? Annemehr "I'm /not/ going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. From grace701 at yahoo.com Tue May 13 14:38:15 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:38:15 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57753 Darrin wrote: > make it so there is a limit on how many times you can turn the > Time-Turner -- say, 24 hours, or even less. I've had my own little theory that the Time Turner can only be used the day the action needs to be "fixed". In other words, you can only use the Time Turner before the bell tolls 12am. Greicy, who's keeping it simple ;) From rainbow at rainbowbrite.net Tue May 13 14:54:32 2003 From: rainbow at rainbowbrite.net (Katy Cartee) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:54:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Arts at Hogwarts/Music in the Wizarding World Message-ID: <001801c3195f$90ac3be0$2302a8c0@sysonline.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57754 Squee wrote: > It also brings up questions I've had about pop-culture > in general...Are there Wizard Radios? Wizard > Rockstars? I've already answered this question, but perhaps you overlooked it, so i'll say again - YES. There is a wizard rock band named "The Weird Sisters" that is mentioned in canon. They were at the Yule Ball (IIRC) and were mentioned in "Quidditch Through the Ages." ~Katy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From waters_law at yahoo.com Tue May 13 14:04:06 2003 From: waters_law at yahoo.com (waters_law) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:04:06 -0000 Subject: sorting and family influences Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57755 (Valky): Checking my COS Uk edition printed in Australia, I couldn't find any reference to what Riddle was wearing in the Chamber of Secrets or The Diary memory. It mentions only that he is "taller than Harry" and has "jet black" hair. So......... apart form him having been "THe Heir of Slytherin" ,which I concede is quite significant, all we can do IS assume which house he was sorted to. The reason I believe this is because, to me, the canon is unclear on whether sorting is *dependent* on genealogical inheritance. THough it certainly defines a strong relationship between the two. IMO, it is far from incorrect to assume that Riddle was a Slyth, but it seems the series is left open for a possible revelation in that department. Munchkin sez: As I recall (as usual, don't have books beside me), when Dennis Creavy was being sorted didn't Hermione point out that family doesn't influence the sorting? She referred to the Patil twins who are in separate houses despite being identical. Thus, the whole merry Weasley clan being Gryffindor may be a red herring, and Hermione's comment may in fact be a clue. Could LV (and possibly HP) be heir to both Slytherin and Gryffindor? Say, one on Lily's side and one on James'? This might tie in with the whole "Harry is the living philosopher's stone" theory -- in him/LV both ends of the spectrum come together, or something. (Maybe I'm babbling . . .) Munchkin waters_law at yahoo.com From KLMF at aol.com Tue May 13 14:24:16 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (KLMF at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:24:16 EDT Subject: Ref to Dog Fancy, Breed names (was New(?) Observations) Message-ID: <77.10c3c3e7.2bf25a10@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57756 Sorry if I'm behind the times in the posts...I'm on Digest. In a message dated 5/12/03 6:53:41 PM, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: << But, perhaps that's because I'm American and I'm confusing what Americans call English Bulldogs with what the English actually consider a true Bulldog? Perhaps it's a different breed entirely? Maybe somebody could clear this up for me? >> The English Bulldog and the Bulldog are the same breed and the term "English" is not actually part of the name according to AKC. It's like calling Poodles "French" Poodles (they aren't French, BTW, they're a German breed). They are just "Poodles." There are, though, several breeds of Bulldog....the AKC recognizes only 2---the English (which is just called the "Bulldog") and the French Bulldog (the actual name of the breed). I, myself, breed English Cockers, which are only called Cockers in any other part of the world....the breed we in the US call Cockers are called American Cockers by the rest of the world.......but I digress..... By the "dog fancy" I am speaking specifically about the references to the breeding and showing of dogs (Aunt Marge who is a breeder, and Parvati leading Harry around "like a show dog"). That's the "dog fancy". References to dogs in literature are not in themselves unusual. References to the breeding and showing of dogs *is*. I found it peculiar that two references have been made in the series that refer directly to the breeding and showing of dogs (that is, the dog fancy) Karen From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue May 13 15:04:20 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:04:20 -0000 Subject: The Arts at Hogwarts/Music in the Wizarding World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57757 Squee wrote: > It also brings up questions I've had about pop-culture > in general...Are there Wizard Radios? Wizard > Rockstars? > > How is music disseminated into the masses in the > Wizarding world? > > The one good thing abouthte vaugeness/lack of info on > music/art at Hogwarts is that I don't have to worry > about cannon when I write fic about it. It has already been mentioned that there is the Wireless Wizarding Network, that we are aware of a singer named Celestina Warbeck (Just for the record, I think she sounds like Mireille Mathieu) and a band called The Weird Sisters. So, clearly, pop-culture exists. Now onto more cultured ground. Quidditch Through The Ages mentions a playwright named Malecrit. There are many paintings in Hogwarts. Which, IMO, means that everything is alright with art in the WW. As for Hogwarts... Personally, I don't think I would appreciate having to take a course in painting or singing. I sing, go to the theatre whenever I get the chance, and visit art museums. But past the age of eleven art courses never interested me, although I had participated in several plays in school. Of course, that's just me. Electives are a completely different thing, though, but I have trouble imagining that there would be a big enough demand for an arts course.I am of the opinion that Magic Painting, for example, is taught via apprenticeship. Maria Alena, *finally* distinguishing herself from the other Marias on the list. From hp at plum.cream.org Tue May 13 15:36:20 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:36:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030513151722.009675b0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57758 Barb appears to have caused much distress to Lissa when she wrote: >However, I still don't believe that in the Potterverse time cannot >be changed. For the most part people seem to be of the opinion that >it SHOULDN'T, and the Time-Turner itself has severe limitations, but >the fact that Hermione warns Harry that wizards who had fooled >around with time (she doesn't say with Time-Turners, but TIME, so >there must be other ways to do time travel) had killed their past or >future selves. >So unless Hermione misspoke when she said that wizards had killed their >past AND future selves, it is in fact possible to change timelines, >because the wizards who had killed their past selves would have done >exactly that. I think there's a combination of both of your two ideas in play here. A time-Turner is perhaps the *safest* method of time travel known to wizardkind, which is why Hermione was offered it. After all, each of the books to date has introduced at least one method of travelling in space (flying motorbike, broomstick, Knight Bus, Floo, Apparating, Portkey), so why can't there be more than one method of travelling through time? The thought had crossed my mind before that if the basic form for travel JKR has given the kids is Floo powder, a very "magical" substance, why has she given Hermione a piece of *technology* to travel through time? The concept of a time-travelling Floo network tickles me pink, I must say. Step into a chimney, use a different power, and turn up in a different (or even the same) chimney at some other point in time. Or a time-travelling Portkey. Furthermore, Time-Turners appear to work an hour at a time. As wizardkind has discovered the means to travel through time, it would make sense that, just as the methods of travelling through space have their limitations, some other mechanism for longer-distance travel through time should also exist. As for Barb's second notion, Hermione has a definite tendency towards exaggeration and hyperbole, and I can just see her (or McGanagall, when she issued the Time-Turner) stretching the truth about the TT's use just a little. Hermione's just the kind of person who would be impressed/scared off by the notion that she might kill herself, in order to restrict use of the TT to attending two lessons simultaneously. I find Dumbledore's statement that "you must not be seen" (which, as I observed in a previous discussion on this topic, is the only time in the books to date that Dumbledore has been so adamant about something that he repeats himself) to be the key in all of this. I maintain that the past cannot be changed, but should the TT'd person be seen in circumstances in which their past self was not present, tragic consequences with which we have not yet been acquainted will necessarily and absolutely ensue. In another message, Lissa made the point that time travel as a concept is too huge and valuable to serve as nothing more than a plot device for one book, and that it should, by rights, have some kind of larger significance within the series. Indeed, Polyjuice was introduced as an (IMO) unnecessary plot device in CoS (the kids could have accomplished what they did pretty much as easily with the Invisiblity Cloak), only for it to become a major element at the core of GoF. There's another parallel I wish to draw: the various plot devices we've encountered have been used by both the "good" and "bad" sides: Polyjuice in CoS, and the Portkeys at the beginning of GoF were used by the "good" side in order to explain their use so that the "bad" side could make use of them by the end of the book; Animagery was used to good effect by Sirius, but to bad by Wormtail and Skeeter; there are other examples. In view of the above, I fully anticipate the use of some form of time travelling by the "bad" side before the series is out. Not necessarily a Time-Turner, but quite possibly some as yet unidentified method which will be hinted at before it becomes part of the relevant book's resolution. This is the point at which Hermione's insistence that time travellers can cause serious injury to themselves or others will come into its own. No, I don't expect Voldemort to time travel to engineer his fathering of Harry, Harry's becoming Voldemort's father, or both of them being the same person. I'm perfectly aware that this is a lame idea, but something like a murder which is revealed to have been committed by a time travelling DE (perhaps to the extent that the victim and perpetrator are the same person) wouldn't surprise me. Who might be involved and how the situation is resolved to make it sufficiently BANGy is the main reason I have my doubts. :-) -- GulPlum AKA Richard, open to ideas From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Tue May 13 14:26:51 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:26:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57759 > Mycropht wrote: > > I'm new but have lurked for awhile. I certainly don't mean to step on > > anyone's toes, but it seems to me that there are a large number of > theories > > regarding the resolution of this story which involve time travel. > > Lissa replied: > Hi Mycropht. I assume you're alluding, at least in part, to my > (admittedly) ludicrous theory regarding Ginny and Harry being Tom M. > Riddle's parents. Mycropht then says: I guess maybe I was, but not intentionally. I read through the various theories with the acronyms in one sitting and many seemed to involve some type of alteration on the time/space continuum. > Mycropht wrote: > > [JKR] uses best-loved elements of myth, folklore, mystery > > plays, modern romance and Tolkien. I think that she has used time > travel > > as one device in one book. She's been such a clever story teller for > so > > long that I don't see her returning to that particular Deux Ex Machina > to > > "solve" her overall story. At least I hope not. I've already been > cruelly > > duped by George Lucas and his The Universe Is One Big Happy Family B.S. > I'd > > like for the HP universe to be something more than Hagrid travelling > back in > > time to hatch V from a dragon's egg as a pet for Salazar Slytherin. > > Lissa replied: > > > I believe JKR *is* a clever storyteller who draws on rich fictional > traditions, respects her main characters, and does not intend to cheat > her readers. I don't believe the time turner in PoA is a Deux Ex > Machina. Given that the novels are set > in a magical universe, the overt introduction of time-travel at the end > of the novel was not "forced and improbable". (I'm referencing M. H. > Abrams definition of Deux Ex Machina from _A Glossary of Literary Terms_ > here, but other definitions are readily available online.) > Mycropht says: Time travel _is_ a long accepted device in literature and I didn't really have any problems with her using it in PoA, as far as that went, except that it did seem forced. I felt like she got away with it in PoA by setting it up with Hermione's studies, but using it as a resolution for the entire story bothered me. I think of it as less improbable, more forced. (American Heritage Dictionary Def. 3: A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.) Lissa again: > I also believe that in the hands of a careful writer, time-travel can be > used in a dignified way as part of an overall plot. > Then Me: The only times I've seen time travel done well in literature is when it is the point of the literature, not an ancillary device. _A Wrinkle In Time_ did this very well. And of course I've been a Dr. Who fan for 25 years. Can't mess with the Time Lords. However, I start getting the willies when authors monkey with time travel as part of a different and larger story. Lissa says, and very well: > I would not, > however, condemn someone else who used it as carefully as JKR appears to > be in the Potter novels. > > In my opinion, Rowling is a skilled writer who has given her readers > ample warning that the Potterverse includes time travel. > Mycropht's wierd heebie-jeebies: Okay, this is really difficult to explain, I think. To me time travel books are like spy novels or mystery novels. They have a certain atmosphere. When you sit down to read them you know that this book is going to use its plot to explore the construct of the t/s continuum (T/SC). That's cool with me. To me, personally, I don't think of the Potterverse as a T/SC book. In my opinion when a writer uses time travel outside of a book about time travel it becomes a forced device. Take H.G. Wells. _The Time Machine_ was about Time Travel. You know that going into it. All of the forth and back that he does is well within the scope of the story. However, say you're reading _War of the Worlds_ and just as the Martians have laid waste to Britain and begun feeding off of the good people of Bath someone finds that there is a time-travel device inside the Martian's ship and they go back in time and blow up Mars before they can invade. Time travel is pulled out of the ether to bring the story in on time. That always makes me mad. Lissa: > This isn't the forum for me to defend or critique George Lucas, so I'm > not going to do it. Mycropht: Story for another time.... Lissa: > I *am* going to point out that revelations of > unexpected parental identity are a proud tradition in literature. Mycropht again: Yeah, they really are. I mean, even in the Bible, for crying out loud. And believe me, I'm expecting some to come in the next few books. However, the thing with the revelation of legacy is that it ties in with the Heroic Quest. It either initiates it or is the culmination of it. I would argue that we've had one major Legacy Reveal in book one when Harry discovers that he is a wizard. His parents have bequeathed him his skill as well as some status in their community. That's as Dickensian a Legacy Reveal as it gets. (Although Harry's is more in common with Cosette in Les Miserables.) Lissa: > It is not, in my opinion, an inherently cheesy gimmick. > Mycropht: No pun intended...(inherently...) It isn't cheesy at all. I don't necessarily think that Vader/Luke is a cheesy LR. I _do_ think that "Leia is Your Sister" is the SINGLE STUPIDIST THING TO EVER COME OUT OF FANTASY LITERATARY TRADITION, AND I'M INCLUDING THE SHANARRA BOOKS IN THIS!!!!!!! *deep breath* Sorry about that. Lissa: > Nonetheless, the one thing that gives me pause about my theory is its > parallels with Star Wars. With the memory of Vader's revelation so > fresh in most people's minds, it is a risky plot choice to make. Mycropht: The main thing that gives me pause about your theory (aside from my personal aversion to T/SC as a plot device) is that in order for Harry & Ginny to be V's mum and dad it would cause the Harry story to wrap inside itself. I think the magic of Harry Potter lies within its hope. Your theory changes this from a modern retelling of a mystery/morality play into an extended fantasy novel. I just don't get that "feel" from the books. I could be very wrong, of course. Lissa: > Oh Mycropht, if you only knew how much moral resolve it took for me not > to mention my opinion of Star Wars in this post... (breaks down into > hysterical laughter from the strain) > Mycropht: Lissa, you are a better woman than I, by more than half. Cordially, Mycropht ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise protected by law. The information is solely intended for the named addressee (or a person responsible for delivering it to the addressee). If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete it from your computer. From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Tue May 13 14:28:11 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:28:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Arts at Hogwarts/Music in the Wizarding W orld Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57760 The entwife says: > You have NO IDEA how much angst this gives me. > > No. > > Idea. > > It also brings up questions I've had about pop-culture > in general...Are there Wizard Radios? Wizard > Rockstars? > > Book 4 mentions the Wierd Sisters, of whom Harry has never heard because he doesn't have access to the Wizard Wireless. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise protected by law. The information is solely intended for the named addressee (or a person responsible for delivering it to the addressee). If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete it from your computer. From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 13 16:30:27 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:30:27 -0000 Subject: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57761 Too many thoughts going through my head right now; does anyone know where to buy a pensieve? In no particular order, they are: (1) This whole theory of Harry as Voldemort strikes me as, well, nuts. Not only do we have the various time travel problems and factual contradictions (is H/LV a Gryff or a Slyth?), but I think we'd be hard pressed to find any good in LV, though we can certainly find some faults in Harry. Still, at heart I think of Harry as a decent and scrupulous person, which led me to the following acronym. I'm open to suggestions for improvement. BALDERDASH = Boy as Lord denies every reasonable determination about Scrupulous Harry. So there. (2) No doubt JKR's problems with counting have been discussed many times in the archives, but they are sometimes so bad that they make me question all theories about the unnamed fourth man in one of the GoF pensieve scenes, the third missing death eater in the GoF graveyard scene, and so on. The earliest bad one I can think of comes early in the series, right at the end of the sorting ceremony in PS/SS (p. 122 in my US edition). Harry has already been sorted, and the text shortly after states: "And now there were only three people left to be sorted." The names of Thomas, Dean and Turpin, Lisa are mentioned, "then it was Ron's turn". Sounds like three to me, but the next paragraph refers to one more sortee: Zabini, Blaise. I'm hoping no one has any theories about how this is not an error, or how it somehow supports the idea that Harry is Riddle or Voldemort. But I'm sure someone can get creative along these lines. (3) While the text is not perfectly clear about the relationship between certain of the DEs and the students of the same surnames, we are certainly led to think that the students are sons of the corresponding DEs (I think, for example, that either Crabbe or Goyle is mentioned as having a thick build, like his possible son). Now we don't know exactly how many DEs there are -- canon mentions a total of 19 by name (all in GoF, I think), but there may well be a good number of others. After the graveyard scene, for example, Harry says to Moody/Crouch that there were "loads of them". Still, I can't help but notice that 4 of the 19 named DEs -- Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott -- have (probable) sons that are all in the same Hogwarts year (and all in Slytherin, as we'd expect). This strikes me as a very high proportion. Do some of the DEs get together and decide when to conceive children, perhaps as a way to ensure sufficient concentration of their progeny at a given place and time? (4) With the exception of the Weasleys and the Creevys, I can't think of any instances where siblings of current Hogwarts students are named, though there is a reference to Dumbledore's brother and of course we know about Lily's sister. Is there a particular tendency for wizard families to have only children? (5) With the exception of Rita Skeeter, all of the significant malevolent (or malevolent-seeming) characters that I can think of are male. I offer up the categories and lists below, but cut me some slack on whether individual characters are truly good or bad. Good Males: Harry, Ron, Rubeus, Albus, Remus, Sirius, James, Arthur Bad Males: Voldemort, Lucius, Severus, Crouch the younger, Peter, Draco and friends, Igor, maybe Quirrell Fairly Useless Males: Gilderoy, Ludovic Good Females: Hermione, Minerva, Molly, Lily, Ginny (not quite major) Bad Females: Rita (Narcissa is certainly not yet a major character) Fairly Useless Females: Sibyll I would certainly love to hear comments about the distinct lack (so far) of nasty female characters. Ersatz Harry, whose mind is a bit emptier now From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue May 13 16:46:25 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:46:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. References: Message-ID: <001f01c3196f$32070150$38ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57762 Ersatz Harry wrote: > (5) With the exception of Rita Skeeter, all of the significant > malevolent (or malevolent-seeming) characters that I can think of are > male. I offer up the categories and lists below, but cut me some > slack on whether individual characters are truly good or bad. > > Good Males: Harry, Ron, Rubeus, Albus, Remus, Sirius, James, Arthur > Add Neville to this list, IMO. > Bad Males: Voldemort, Lucius, Severus, Crouch the younger, Peter, > Draco and friends, Igor, maybe Quirrell > I think Severus should be in a category all to himself. If he has truly defected, then he would no longer be bad. Maybe his category should be Gray Area Males? I also would like to propose a new category just for the fun of it. Spineless Males: Peter, Igor, maybe Quirrell > Fairly Useless Males: Gilderoy, Ludovic > > Good Females: Hermione, Minerva, Molly, Lily, Ginny (not quite major) > > Bad Females: Rita (Narcissa is certainly not yet a major character) > > Fairly Useless Females: Sibyll > I have the feeling Sybll will become more important as the series goes on... > I would certainly love to hear comments about the distinct lack (so > far) of nasty female characters. > Well, there IS the new DADA teacher coming. We don't know what she's like. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 13 16:49:29 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:49:29 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Coble, Katherine" wrote: >>Okay, this is really difficult to explain, I think. To me time travel booksare like spy novels or mystery novels. They have a certain atmosphere.When you sit down to read them you know that this book is going to use itsplot to explore the construct of the t/s continuum (T/SC). << I think that's true only for "hard" science fiction. If the story were *about* the characters attempting to resolve the logical paradoxes inherent in time travel, then I would feel cheated. Since it's not, I'll allow Rowling to finesse the subject, just as I allow her to ignore the question of what happens to Peter Pettigrew's considerable mass while he is transformed into a rat. I do think we'll see time travel again. Hermione was allowed a time turner because she is an exceptionally brilliant student. Well, who's the *other* exceptionally brilliant student we know of? It would be just like Tom Riddle to turn his time turner in only after secretly making one of his own. Pippin From sarudy at yahoo.com Tue May 13 16:52:14 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:52:14 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra In-Reply-To: <01b501c31957$c5cb73c0$814053d1@SaalsD> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57764 "Grace" wrote: [snip] > At that point I fell asleep and my mind wandered > back to GoF, the graveyard scene. Harry is standing > there before LV who is about to finish his off > with avada kedavra. > > LV yells "avada kedavra" and the same time Harry > yells "Expelliarmus!" > > BUT! That curse didn't work on Harry the last > time he tried it, what makes him think it's going > to work this time? Getting his body back and a > little protection from Harry's blood doesn't change > the fact that the AK curse bounces off Harry. > > Grace I'm not sure that we've established that the protection on Harry specifically protects specifically against the AK curse. It's defined rather nebulously, and even Dumbledore admits to not knowing quite how it works. In TPS the protection burns someone who means Harry ill (and is really really evil) just because. In that case, it's not even deflecting any magic, just touch. It also warns him, via the scar, of evil attention focused on him. It seems that it's more of a general deflection of ill intent from Volemort, rather than a specific warding against AK in general. In fact, I'd theorize that even before Voldemort's spell in book four, AK cast by someone else would probably work on Harry (not that anyone else would do such a thing). So, once the spell is cast, we see that Voldemort can now touch Harry without pain, so it seems to be reasonable that he can also attack without repercussion. -Kk From steinber at zahav.net.il Tue May 13 13:28:22 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:28:22 +0200 Subject: Adopted!Harry is really... TTTR Message-ID: <000101c31957$00e59180$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 57765 Answers to some questions: To Cindy C (offlist): TTTR = Time Turned Tom Riddle. Sorry I forget to clarify that. To Dan, who wrote: Interesting concept but it doesnt explain why Voldemort tried to kill Harry and did kill Harry's parents. If they are "one and the same" why would he do this. I am open to suggestions, it seems quite an interesting topic! TAS: He tried to kill Harry and failed. He did kill Harry's (not his own) *adoptive* parents because they got in the way. As for why he was ready to spare Lily, any of the extant theories will do. To Fauxwen, who wrote: But how do you explain the fact that Harry was able to pull Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat? Remember, "only a true Gryffindor ..." etc.? TAS: A true Gryffindor is someone whose heart is truly Gryffindor, not whose blood is Gryffindor. As Dumbledore told Harry, he was only spared Slytherin house and put in Gryffindor because that is what he asked for, and yet, he is a true Gryffindor. To Izaskun: Thank you for answering Linda's question. To Kirstini, who wrote: I'm just not buying this "identical innate character" thing. As I read down your post, I found a lot of your argument convincing, but I thought to myself "how on earth is this going to get round the fact that Harry and LV have completely different characters?" TAS: Sorry, I meant "identical innate temperament" which is all infants have; character comes later. I grant 100% that this is problem, but this is why (I think) I don't have to solve it: Assuming that Harry and Voldemort are identical gene/womb products, the question is how their different lives from infancy on left them with such different characters. Now this is nothing but the eternal nature vs nurture debate, about which everyone has a different take, and about which most people have strong opinions. JKR certainly has a strong opinion about it, and is clearly strongly biased against nature and for nurture. We can't know whether her strong pro-nurture stance goes as far as creating both a Harry and a Voldemort out of one body, but it's possible she does believe such a thing possible. If those are her beliefs, she'll write how it happened in her story, and make her case. At that point, you might say, "Come on, JKR, that's pushing it too far," but your objection won't change the "facts" as she will have written them. So the question I am posing is: Does the story so far support the possibility that JKR is so pro-nurture and anti-nature that she will present the divergent characters of Harry and Voldemort as coming from the same infant? I think so, and I'll leave it to her to present the how of it. Kirstini: But also a bit reminiscent of that bit in the cave in The Empire Strikes Back where Luke takes off Vader's helmet to reveal..dahdahdah...himself! TAS: IIRC, Vader was Luke's father, and *that* is what HP fans want to avoid. To hmvick, who wrote: If that?s true, why didn?t Voldemort just go back to 1927 and kill infant!Tom Riddle, instead of hauling his own ass through the space time continuum to 1980? TAS: I suppose that becoming a god requires a whole complex magical ritual that he only learned and had set up at the age of 50+ in the 1980's and it was easier or necessary to do it in that time-period rather than to set the whole thing up in 1927. To Lissa, who wrote: but why would a wise couple like James and Lily rush to adopt a child almost immediately upon graduating from Hogwarts? TAS: I suppose Dumbledore told them that this homeless infant was critical to the future of the WW and asked if they could please keep him for a while. They fell in love with Harry and decided to keep him for good. Dumbledore may also have told them that the child needed disguising, and they did the charm work on his looks, expecting to adjust it when he got older, not knowing that they would be dead. Of course, it is possible that J&L knew exactly who Harry was, and how he got to the 1980's, and they may even have done the daring kidnapping of Harry from under Voldemort's sacrificial knife, in which case, "why" they adopted him and disguised him becomes even easier. Lissa: And Sirius banks that Harry's behavior in the Shrieking Shack scene will emulate James Potter's own. TAS: This assumes Magic Dishwasher, which is possible but unnecessary with my theory. Lissa: I think Rowling likes Dumbledore too much to have him engaging in deceit unless it's crucial at that moment in the story. In my opinion, it isn't crucial here [where Dumbledore keeps telling Harry how much he is like J&L]. TAS: I think Dumbledore was doing some short-run kindness, of the kind many of us do, especially with children. The Mirror of Erised showed how much Harry wanted family, and what would be the point of telling him that the wonderful parents he has to look back to are adoptive and not biological. They were parents, after all, even if adoptive. Harry's biological parents would not be a comfort for him to think of, in my theory. So here is Harry, dreaming of family, fantasizing James across the lake, etc, etc, and Dumbledore tells him as much as he honestly can. Harry *does* have Lily's eyes, even if he wasn't born with them. And he *does* have much of James' character, however he acquired it. Lissa: For such a red herring to be justifiable at *all* there would have to be some subtle indication from the first book on that Harry is adopted. TAS: Most of my "clues" were from PS/SS and CoS, and I expect that JKR will increase the clues and develop the old ones as the series moves on, so that at the end, we'll all say, "I can't believe it - the clues were all there!" same as we did with Quirrel, the Diary, Scabbers, etc. Lissa: Are you suggesting concurrent alternate realities in one realm for the single entity that is Harry Potter? TAS: Yes, something normally impossible, and achieved by the evil genius Voldemort after decades of hard work, for the sole purpose of acheiving godhood. Lissa: Out of curiousity, why does Dumbledore know [about the ritual]? TAS: I suppose he's been tracking Riddle ever since school, and he's especially been spying on him since his rise to power. The year of the hypothesized kidnap of infant!Riddle was year 10 of Voldemort's rise to power - the year Harry was "born." Lissa: And why put Harry with the Dursleys--who wouldn't, in your theory, be blood relatives--instead of a different, *reasonable* adoptive family? TAS: Dumbledore tells McGonagall in PS ch. 1 why he's picked the Dursleys: he wants a muggle family with no connection to the WW. At the same time, he needs a muggle family he can give a letter to explaining Harry's wizard status and other yet-to-be-divulged things. And he needs a family willing to take Harry in, with no muggle beaurocracy. How many choices could there have been? It was a good thing the Dursleys didn't know Harry was adopted! Lissa: A few other quibbles: Your theory renders the Weasleys, who I personally believe are as much at the heart of the Potter series as the Potters themselves, unimportant. It also makes everything--*everything*--all about Harry. That would be okay, I suppose, if the novels weren't doing some serious exploration of the themes of family. Why do you think the first novel opens with an appalling day trip into the lives of the most wretched family imagineable? Why do the Malfoys need to exist? (That is to say, how do they help fulfill the novels' theme?) Why is purity of blood an issue in the stories? Is this all just window dressing for one man's catastrophic battle with himself? TAS: These are good points. I'll have to think about them. I'm glad this theory hasn't spoiled anyone's day. It irked me when I first thought it up, because I'd like Harry to be just a great kid and nothing more, but the theory seemed to have too much potential to give up, or to keep to myself. The Admiring Skeptic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Tue May 13 14:31:19 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:31:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Attitudes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57766 The Entwife and Darrin are saying: > --- darrin_burnett wrote: > > > And if Snape is so insecure as to feel threatened by > > a first-year who > > has been living with the Muggliest Muggles anyone > > has ever seen, then > > that says loads more about Snape's character than it > > does Harry's. > > > At this point I find it hard to belive that Snape > hates Harry solely because of the James keeping Snape > from Lupin incedent....either that or I'm just > deluding myself that Snape has redemable qualities. > > > > > > > I think Snape also sees Malfoy as sort of a > > younger version of > > himself - > > > another talented and potentially powerful wizard > > who's getting > > overshadowed > > > by a Potter, and that's why he tend to favour > > Malfoy as much as he > > does. > > Ahhhhh! > > My hat is off to you. > > It's given me a lot of angst in the past trying ot > figure out WHY the heck Snape is so nice to Malfoy. > > Mycropht: I'm with Darrin on this for a lot of it, but come GoF I'm also leaning toward the thought that just maybe some of Snape's cruelty to Harry is a "doth protest too much" posture to keep his standing in the DE community and further his skill as a double agent. Mycropht From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Tue May 13 15:25:15 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:25:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ref to Dog Fancy, Breed names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57767 KLMF writes: > By the "dog fancy" I am speaking specifically about the references to the > breeding and showing of dogs (Aunt Marge who is a breeder, and Parvati > leading Harry around "like a show dog"). That's the "dog fancy". > > References to dogs in literature are not in themselves unusual. References > to > the breeding and showing of dogs *is*. I found it peculiar that two > references have been made in the series that refer directly to the > breeding > and showing of dogs (that is, the dog fancy) > Mycropht responds: I found it interesting, too. I have a breeder-quality Bernese Mt. Dog (Sennunhund) that I've not shown. Perhaps JKR is just exploiting the Lincoln's Dr.'s Dog myth from publishing. In short, the three best selling types of books in the U.S. are books about -Lincoln -Doctors -Dogs The irony of which is that no one will read a book about Lincoln's Doctor's Dog. Sorry. Brain hemmorage. Back to topic: I wonder if JKR even likes dogs. She certainly made the Dog Fanciers to be a minor villain in Book 3. Mycropht From steinber at zahav.net.il Tue May 13 16:01:39 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:01:39 +0200 Subject: Adopted!Harry = TTTR Message-ID: <002c01c31969$0aa43520$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 57768 Thank you, Lissa, for your fondness for my theory. It's TAS, or The Admiring Skeptic, and I'm actually a bit curious about whether I'm male or female, in this list's uncollective mind. I'm rather impartial, myself, so y'all can freely third-person my posts "he" or "she" as you please. In any case, back to HP. As you wrote: Having read others' replies and concluded that your theory truly does entail a complete life for Baby Riddle and for Harry Potter, I must meekly object. As GulPlum (aka Richard) noted in the thread on Time Travel, Rowling's universe doesn't appear to allow two opposing timelines to occur in the one universe. The results of an act committed during time travel appear to be unambiguous and absolute. TAS: But as you later wrote, JKR does imply that changing time can sometimes happen. How, and how to resolve the paradoxes, she hasn't said. GulPlum's version is the usual route, I am sure, but a time-change route supposedly exists, or Hermione wouldn't have been taught to be so panicky about being seen. Lissa: In my opinion, there is no way, given your theory, that Voldemort could casually dispatch Harry Potter with a public avada kedavra in the cemetery in GoF. The Voldemort in your theory is a gloating god-aspiring maniac. He could not *help* but drag his pitiful alter self into a private area and confess all his grand plans--and take every opportunity possible to tell Harry how small and insignificant and shameful he, Harry, was. LV's ego would not be satisfied with anything less than making Harry suffer the knowledge of the terrible truth. Of course, you can disagree with me on this. :) TAS: I do disagree. I like your description of how V should feel toward Harry, but I don't think his actual, expressed feelings are so hard to square. Harry is not "other" to V; he is property. Harry is the part of himself that he has decided to do without for good reason. He feels about as much for Harry as the long hair you've decided to cut. I don't think V's been following Harry's career much because he doesn't really view Harry as a person. (Truth is, V doesn't view anyone as a person.) Anything Harry's accomplished in life is a big mistake because Harry should have been dead years ago. All V cares about, in the graveyard, is impressing his DEs with the fact that Harry is a big zero, because he can't stand the way this should-be-dead-wood is being given credit for something that the adult V really gets credit for: bringing Harry forward in the first place. The bounced AK (if that is what it was) was due the the forces created by V's godhood preparations and not something infant!Harry had in him. So Harry getting credit irks V to heaven (or the other place). As for V referring to James, and not announcing his impending godhood, I think he wanted to surprise his DEs with the fact, and not ruin the surprise. Any acronyms yet? The Admiring Skeptic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 13 17:17:37 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Kirstin=20Innes?=) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:17:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re. Adopted Harry is really.....TTTR/Killing past and future selves In-Reply-To: <1052836151.3799.53750.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030513171737.25687.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57769 Been rethinking this whole LV is HP thing (potential anacronym simply "VIP"? Voldemort Is Potter? Not complex enough...), when I noticed that Lissa had written: "If you can find a way to make an HP=LV theory workable *without* Harry Potter being adopted and *without* Voldemort knowing that Potter is himself, then I'd be able to consider it. (Once upon a time before I found my own hypothesis last summer, I used to wonder on occasion if HP couldn't be LV. I never could come up with a canonically acceptable way to make it happen.)" Kirstini(me) wrote: I think I've got a possible way to do this. I'm working on it just now. Will try and post it sometime round about midnight GMT if it works. __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue May 13 17:30:42 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:30:42 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces and the Necessity of the Polyjuice In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030513151722.009675b0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57770 GulPlum wrote: Barb appears to have caused much distress to Lissa when she wrote: Me: ::pats Lissa:: There, there. Don't mind me. I distressed a lot of people with a time-traveling Harry fanfic. ;) I seem to have an unfortunate talent for it. I previously wrote: > So unless Hermione misspoke when she said that wizards had killed > their past AND future selves, it is in fact possible to change > timelines, because the wizards who had killed their past selves > would have done exactly that. I think that rather than Hermione misspeaking, what we probably have here is JKR miswriting. In other words, I think this is a Flint. While it is true that Hermione says the past SHOULDN'T be changed, rather than CAN'T be changed, I think that both this and the statement that time-traveling wizards have killed their past and future selves were used by JKR because she didn't quite realize the implications of the language involved. Other than these two statements--both from Hermione--the rest of the story strongly implies that in the Potterverse, time cannot in fact be changed, or if it can, it cannot be done with a device like a Time-Turner. (A complicated spell would probably be required if it's possible at all.) I was pointing out before that if we are to believe these statements, then it is strongly implied that time CAN be changed. JKR obviously didn't count on people picking this apart who have read numerous time-travel paradox science fiction books and stories. (I love that she didn't even realize she was writing fantasy until she noticed that there were unicorns in the story! ) Since other evidence strongly suggests that timelines being mutable is NOT JKR's philosophy, then the statement about wizards killing their past selves must be regarded as a Flint, siince that would produce something contrary to fact in the Potterverse, and the word 'shouldn't,' should be looked on as just a poor choice, when 'can't' would have better communicated her stand on time travel. Is there an interview where she definitively states her views on time travel in the Potterverse? GulPlum wrote: > As for Barb's second notion, Hermione has a definite tendency > towards exaggeration and hyperbole, and I can just see her (or > McGanagall, when she issued the Time-Turner) stretching the truth > about the TT's use just a little. Hermione's just the kind of > person who would be impressed/scared off by the notion that she > might kill herself, in order to restrict use of the TT to > attending two lessons simultaneously. I would disagree about this characterization of Hermione's verbal tendencies. She's actually one of the most precise speakers in the books, following right after Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall. (There are those three again!) Hagrid is probably the least precise speaker, as when he says that all dark wizards have come from Slytherin. That is why, along with the other evidence of how time travel works in the books, Hermione's words seem Flint-like. The imprecision in these statements is not worthy of her. GulPlum wrote: Indeed, Polyjuice was introduced as an (IMO) unnecessary plot device in CoS (the kids could have accomplished what they did pretty much as easily with the Invisiblity Cloak), only for it to become a major element at the core of GoF. Me: Not so. First, it could have been quite difficult to infiltrate the Slytherin common room in the cloak, especially if all three were sharing it. They might never have gained access if the door was closed very quickly after Crabbe, Goyle and Malfoy entered. Even if they had been able to enter, there was no guarantee that the conversation between Malfoy and his cronies would have given them the information they needed. In fact, when Harry, disguised as Goyle, says, "You must have some idea who's behind it all..." Draco responds with, "You know I haven't, Goyle, how many times do I have to tell you?" Clearly, Goyle has been told this information before, and while it's possible that he's dim enough that he's forgotten each time and so might ask again (JKR clearly hasn't given these boys much in the brains department), it's also possible that if he was worried about Malfoy being angry with him or insulting him for asking one more time, he might never have asked again. If the trio had been eavesdropping from under the cloak, they might never have heard the information they needed to eliminate Malfoy as the heir. They might have spent their entire holiday hanging about in the Slytherin common room and never learned anything (plus they would have been reported missing if they'd done that). They needed to be able to direct the conversation, and they could only do that if Malfoy thought Ron and Harry were Crabbe and Goyle. So in the end, JKR had them do the only logical thing, plus managed to foreshadow the use of the potion in GoF. I wonder if now she'll have Harry be as paranoid as Moody; he might start to think anyone and everyone around him has been Polyjuiced, after his experience during fourth year... --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 13 17:42:06 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:42:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's Attitudes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57771 > > > Mycropht: > I'm with Darrin on this for a lot of it, but come GoF I'm also leaning > toward the thought that > just maybe some of Snape's cruelty to Harry is a "doth protest too much" > posture to keep > his standing in the DE community and further his skill as a double agent. > > Mycropht Oh yeah, this makes tons of sense. We know that three of the current Slyths are sons of DEs -- Crabbe, Goyle and Draco -- and there is every possibility other Slyths are also related to DEs or other V-Mort sympathizers. If Snape were to be anything but cruel to Harry, the Boy Who Took Out V-Mort; Hermione, the Mudblood Who Knows Everything; Ron, the son of the Muggle-Loving Arthur Weasley and even, to a lesser extent, Neville, the son of some of the best Aurors there ever were, then these kids would really start getting suspicious. This also answers the question we've long had. Why does Dumbledore allow Snape to be so outrageously mean to the students? Simple. He knows Snape needs to maintain his "street cred" with the Slyths. Now... there is the possibility that Snape's cruelty and his cover are not mutually exclusive. He could really be enjoying his cover and it could be coming very naturally to him. Where I fall down on this Snape Spymaster theory is the idea that he's always in the know and always playing a part. I refuse to believe his flying off the handle at the end of PoA is just him playing a role. I really think he was going bezerk at Sirius escaping. I think Snape learned all the facts of life at the end of GoF. He learned, essentially, that Harry was a serious force to deal with. He also learned that while Dumbledore gave him a second chance, he also gave Sirius a second chance. Matters are not, or should not be, as clear to Snape as they have always been. It'll be interesting to see how he deals with it. Darrin -- Still not ruling out Snape betraying Dumbledore at the end, either. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue May 13 17:45:26 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:45:26 -0000 Subject: Exploiting the WWN (was: The Arts at Hogwarts/Music in the Wizarding W orld) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57772 The entwife says: > > It also brings up questions I've had about pop-culture > > in general...Are there Wizard Radios? Wizard > > Rockstars? "Coble, Katherine" wrote: > Book 4 mentions the Wierd Sisters, of whom Harry has never heard > because he doesn't have access to the Wizard Wireless. Me: We do hear the Wizarding Wireless at the Weasley home, with the song- stylings of Celestina Warbeck. (Why is she making me think she's the wizarding equivalent of Petula Clark?) One also gets the impression that Gilderoy Lockhart was a very big part of wizarding culture, like any famous author in the Muggle world who keeps popping up on chat shows and news programs. I could just see Molly staring at his picture on the cover of one of his books (the image smirking insufferably) while listening to an interview with him on the wireless. It would also make sense for commentary from professional Quidditch matches to be broadcast on the wireless, for people who couldn't go, but I'm not sure whether JKR will have this be true; she doesn't seem to have fully considered the ramifications of the WWN. Molly Weasley seems to have been getting her news of what went on at the World Cup from just the Daily Prophet; you'd think there would have been regular updates on the wireless to reassure people about what was happening. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From trisha.masen at verizon.net Tue May 13 16:25:50 2003 From: trisha.masen at verizon.net (Trisha Masen) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:25:50 -0400 Subject: Time Travel Paradoxes and Adopted!Harry is...TTTR Message-ID: <20030513162550.MHWU22632.out002.verizon.net@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 57773 Richard (GulPlum) writes: >Darrin admitted that I was confusing the >hell out of him with my previous post and said: >>This is the Bill and Ted version of time travel! > BTW, Keanu Reeves was Ted "Theodore" Logan >>So, what you're saying is that because no one >>went back in time to save Lily and James, they >>were impossible to save, but, on the other hand, >>no one would have known they needed saving until >>AFTER they had been killed. >Correct. Anything else would have been impossible. One of the basic theories of time travel across most mediums (and sci-fi) is that you can't change the *reason* you go back. Example: If someone (let's say Dumbledore) went back a few hours on Halloween 1981 to say Lily and James, once he actually *does* saved them, his reason for going back no longer exists. They're alive. So why did he go back to save them? Sorry if I'm making your brain hurt, Darrin >>Why couldn't someone have gone back in time and >>just gotten Lily and James and Harry out of there? >Because the corollary of what's said above is that >if they'd have been saved, they wouldn't have been >able to have died in the first place. >Hence the whole thing would have been pointless. >Just remember one thing: YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST. >You can make it happen, but you can't change it. >Whatever you made happen is what "the universe" >knows to have happened. There is no alternate reality >in which events occurred in a different way. Again, you can't mess with the reason you went back in the first place. --------- Additionally, regarding the Adopted!Harry is TTTR theory: I really don't see how that could happen. Again, most time travel theories are based upon the premise that you do not interact with your previous selves (Hermione stressed this once she and Harry used the Time Turner). There are various theories as to why. Hermione's was that you might attack your future self and you might die, thereby causing a paradox (because if you're dead, how can your future self travel back to kill you?). Another theory is that two things comprising of the same matter cannot occupy the same space (this was done much better in the move "Time Cop" with Jean-Claude Van Damme). Therefore, even if TR traveled to 1927 to transport his infant self to 1980, it's still his *infant self* and if he kills himself, he no longer exists. Paradox. Oh, geez, now my brain hurts. I've got to leave this subject now. ~Trisha Masen http://www.trishamasen.net/trisha.htm From burgess at cynjut.net Tue May 13 17:22:27 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:22:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Time Travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <1052836151.3799.53750.m12@yahoogroups.com> References: <1052836151.3799.53750.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <19197.204.248.21.50.1052846547.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57774 > Mycropht wrote: >> > I call my theory "Not Really". >> > I don't see her returning to that particular Deux Ex Machina to >> > "solve" her overall story. At least I hope not. > I mostly agree. In fact, I think it's done everything it needs to in the story, so there's little reason (that we know at this time) to drag it out again. One thing I disagree with, however, is that this isn't really "Deux Ex Machina". The time turner is introduced much earlier in the story; in fact, it is repeatedly hinted at during the entire story. Now, if "Gandalf" were to suddenly show up at the end of the story, wave his staff, and scare off the Dementors, then I'd agree with your DEM statement. What happened here is that a previous foreshadowed plot device is revealed to Harry at the end which explains not only the mystery of the rest of the story, but also provides a method to solve several otherwise intractable problems. > Dan replied: >> I'm right there with ya! I was actually quite disappointed when she >> introduced the time travel bit in the first place. It opens up too many >> problems and introduces the blatantly obvious question: "Why didn't >> McGonagall or DD just jump back in time to save the Potters?" >> >> Once you go down that "time travel" road you have a hell of a time >> keeping things in check.... [snipped some of Dan's discussion] >> >> I honestly think it would have been better if JKR just hadn't gone >> there. > > Lissa replied: [...elided...] > > Rowling controls the flow of her story. None of these plot situations > required time travel *at all*. > > I have to ask again, why oh why oh *why* would she introduce it? > > She's built amazing suspense in the other novels without resorting to > time tricks. I don't think you can legitimately argue she used such an > extreme plot device just to generate a little tension. Or, well, maybe > you can... (smiles) I just think it'd be silly. I think I disagree with your premise. She spends the whole story building up to the use of a device that at least three of the characters (McGonagall, Dumbledore, and Hermione) all know about, but Harry (and hence us) do not. > > I guess what I'm trying to point out here is that JKR's use of time > travel in PoA almost mandates that the device play a crucial role in the > series. Otherwise she's done the equivalent of putting a big old ocean > liner in her story--a ship so ugly and cumbersome that no reader can > ignore it--then using it to move a passenger from one dock to another > about two hundred feet away. Okay, it's not *impossible* that she > pulled time travel into her series just for its use in PoA and will > refrain from employing it again. It could be a red herring. But if it > is, it's the most swollen and silly bird of that species that I've > encountered in all my years of reading fiction. > > I think it's more absurd to conclude that Rowling is *not* going to make > serious use of time travel in the series than to conclude that she is. > I think I disgree completely with this last statement and with Dan's last statment. My opinion on this is that Rowlings introduced the time turner to do three things: 1) Introduce a device that allows her to explore the concept of being in two places at the same time, primarily to work Hermione's character development. 2) Give us a way for Harry to win in the end, while appearing to be in mortal danger. 3) Reinforce what she says in interviews about James and Lily being really, truly, completely dead. Of these, I think the third is really critical, but the other two are still important. WRT the "ocean liner" comment, I think the "big trip" isn't coming, but it's already happened. For a moment, just a moment, there was some hope in the reader's mind that James was alive and had conjured the Patronus (true "deux ex machina", since James would have suddenly appeared to save the day). Once we figure out what Harry has (that it must have been him that conjured the Patronus) then the static timeline is maintained. Since this is canonical, I think that we should assume that Harry's observation on time travel is correct, and that there is but one static timeline. We have two interpretations of the way time works in canon. The first is Hermione's, where it's possible to go back and change the past. Her admonitions from McGonagall seem to be the seed of this theory. On the other hand, we never actually see her change time; we only see evidence of her being able to be in two places at the same time. The second is Harry's, who realizes that what has happened in the past has already happened and can't be modified. As I said above, I think this is probably what JKR is actually going to define as the rule for this Potterverse. In fact, Hermione explains that Harry can't burst in on himself because he'd freak out and probably curse himself. No one points out that since they didn't see each other the first time, they wouldn't be seen the second time. It isn't until Harry is explaining how the fully functional Patronus shows up that we get the idea that Harry has figured it out. Aside: Who wants to bet the screen writer can't help but have Hermione, in the movie, bump into herself at least once during the school year with Harry and Ron standing around? My interpretation of Hermione's comment is that the information is second-hand, at best, and urban legend at worst. McGonagall (who was the keeper of the TimeTurner) could have introduced these dire warnings as a prophylactic against improper use. We don't get any kind of detail; what we get is something more like an urban legend warning (like the stalker with the hook). My sense of the whole thing is that Hermione has been using it all year without realizing that she isn't changing the past - she's just in it. I seriously doubt that this multiple parallel universe thing is going to pan out. While JKR does seem to have a keen eye for classical genre-related stories, I don't get the sense that she has been introduced to most of these theories. Of course, I could be wrong. On to the rest of the theories (that aren't actually part of the quote, but play in): - I have suggested several times that Harry is his own ancestor (or descendent, depending on your perspective). I usually do this to point out how patently absurd I think the entire discussion is. The "where did the first one come from" paradox is just too hard to explain. Think about the ring in that old Christopher Reeves movie. Also, this introduces just a little too much Oedipus into the story (and everyone remembers how well that one ended?) - The time turner works by hours. 1 turn = 1 hour. Turning back time far enough to be at the scene of Lily and James' death would require a power drill at least. Going back a couple of hours is OK; going back a week would require a couple hundred turns: a month is over 700. If we assume that it works on even a 2 turns per second basis (for which there is no canon), you'd have to turn the thing constantly for over 5 minutes to go back that far. Talk about carpal tunnel syndrome! :-) -- Dave Burgess Bellevue, NE 68123 From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 13 17:59:46 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:59:46 -0000 Subject: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > (2) No doubt JKR's problems with counting have been discussed many > times in the archives, but they are sometimes so bad that they make me > question all theories about the unnamed fourth man in one of the GoF > pensieve scenes, the third missing death eater in the GoF graveyard > scene, and so on. The earliest bad one I can think of comes early in > the series, right at the end of the sorting ceremony in PS/SS (p. 122 > in my US edition). Harry has already been sorted, and the text > shortly after states: "And now there were only three people left to > be sorted." The names of Thomas, Dean and Turpin, Lisa are mentioned, > "then it was Ron's turn". Sounds like three to me, but the next > paragraph refers to one more sortee: Zabini, Blaise. I'm hoping no > one has any theories about how this is not an error, or how it somehow > supports the idea that Harry is Riddle or Voldemort. But I'm sure > someone can get creative along these lines. Annemehr: No creativity neccessary. Dean Thomas was inserted in the Scholastic version; he his completely absent from the sorting account in the UK editions. So it was a Scholastic editor who couldn't count in this case! For a complete breakdown of the differences between US and UK versions, see Steve VanderArk's HP Lexicon. There is a link to it in the HBFile somewhere... They *definitely* changed more than "jumper" to "sweater," too -- makes me wonder if JKR ever reads the Scholastic versions sometimes! Annemehr "I'm /not/ going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 13 18:08:18 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:08:18 -0000 Subject: Quick Look at Time Travel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57776 Let's skip massive speculation and look at what we actually know about Rowling/wizard time travel. So far we see only one device - the Time Turner. So far we have only seen it go backward in time in units of one hour per turn. So far we have only seen time travel within a single day. All events occurring between midnight at the beginning of the day and the next midnight at the end of that day. Perhaps that represents the boundaries of time travel. So far, since we haven't seen forward time travel, the only way to get back to the original point in time, that is, the time at which you disappeared and went back in time, is to relive that span of time again. That is, Harry and Hermione go back 3 hours, the only way to move forward 3 hours to the point where they went back, is to wait for 3 hours of time to pass then assume the roles of the people (them; H/H) who went back and continue on with their lives. Did that make sense? If it did make sense, then you realize that the Harry and Hermione who continued on with there lives are biologically 3 hours older than their original selves. They lived 3 hours twice, therefore their 24 hour day consisted of 27 hours (24+3=27). Now expand that to a ten year backward jump in time (87,600 hours). Example, Let's say at age 30 on Jan 1, 2000 at 12:00 noon you got back in time to Jan 1, 1990 at 12:00 noon then you simply live for another 10 years with two of you in existance; the original you (age 20 in 1990) and the time travel you (age 30 in 1990, and 2000 @ 12:00). You both live in parallel until you reach Jan 1, 2000 @ noon. At this time, the original you has aged 10 years and is now 30; the time travel you has aged 10 years and is now 40. So on Jan 1, 2000 @ 12:00pm, the original you at age 30 disappears, and the time travel you having aged 10 years, steps in and continues on with your life; but at 12:00 you were 30; at 12:01 when you resumed your life, you were 40. That and 87,600 turns of the time turner would certainly reduce anyone's desire to go any significant distance back in time. In addition to this mess up in your age, you also have to figure out how to deal with two of you living at the same time. How do you arrange your lives so that you don't interfer with each other, and confuse all the people around you? How does the time travel you exist for 10 years in the past without screwing up other parts of the timeline? And what happens if the time travel you has an accident during those 10 years and there is no one to come back to the future and resume your life. In that case, at age 30, you will simply cease to exist; vanish without a trace. I won't get into what happens if your original self dies during that 10 years because it obviously didn't happen or you wouldn't have been able to be age 30 and go back in time. Given what we have so far, time travel seems somewhat limited. Just a thought. bboy_mn From flenser at hotmail.com Tue May 13 17:30:21 2003 From: flenser at hotmail.com (fauxwen) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:30:21 -0000 Subject: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > Too many thoughts going through my head right now; does anyone know > where to buy a pensieve? In no particular order, they are: > > > BALDERDASH = Boy as Lord denies every reasonable determination about > Scrupulous Harry. So there. > I love it! > (5) With the exception of Rita Skeeter, all of the significant > malevolent (or malevolent-seeming) characters that I can think of are > male. I offer up the categories and lists below, but cut me some > slack on whether individual characters are truly good or bad. > > > Good Females: Hermione, Minerva, Molly, Lily, Ginny (not quite major) > > Bad Females: Rita (Narcissa is certainly not yet a major character) > > Fairly Useless Females: Sibyll > > I would certainly love to hear comments about the distinct lack (so > far) of nasty female characters. > I, for one, cannot wait to get some serious canon on Mrs. Lestrange. The only female DE? (Narcissa has not been named as an actual DE, regardless of where her loyalties lie). JKR has to have an interesting story wrapped up in that character. I'm thinking an identity surprise ... why else obscure her first name and maiden surname for so long? --fauxwen, fully expecting a prison break in Book V From emeleel at juno.com Tue May 13 18:04:06 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:04:06 -0500 Subject: Harry's growing hair (was: Adopted!Harry) and Time Paradoxes Message-ID: <20030513.130407.-139305583.2.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57778 Okay, Harry's hair first: I don't think Harry's ever growing hair is any sign of it being charmed to resembles James'. We know that Harry doesn't like people staring at his scar, even before he gets to the WW where it's even more famous. I believe that Harry's growing hair is another manifestation of - whatdoyacallit? - "incidental magic" even though it's not a result of immediate danger or fierce anger. Kind of like the incredible shrinking sweater - there was no danger from wearing Dudley's old sweater except for the humiliation he would get from kids at school. I think Harry's hair just grows out to cover his scar, and the untidiness is a result of genetics. Darrin wrote about the trouble with Time Turners: >And what if you lose count and actually only turn it back 131,398 times? Then >you get there too late and have to start all over! And unless the damn thing >goes forward, how do you get back? I can't prove it from canon, but I get the feeling that you can't really go forward with the Time Turner. Even if you could, you would still have to do it in hour increments, and they would have to be timed to coincide with the hours that you turned back - very tricky busines. The way the whole Time Turner scenario reads to me, the TTd characters have to live out the whole time that is turned back, while avoiding their "original" selves. LV would have a devil of a time trying to live yet another life while hiding from his original self, LOL! As I said, I can't prove it, but that's just the way reading about the TT feels to me. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue May 13 18:14:51 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:14:51 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: avada kedavra References: Message-ID: <002001c3197b$8d57f710$6416243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57779 Kk wrote: It seems that it's more of a general deflection of ill intent from Volemort, rather than a specific warding against AK in general. In fact, I'd theorize that even before Voldemort's spell in book four, AK cast by someone else would probably work on Harry (not that anyone else would do such a thing). So, once the spell is cast, we see that Voldemort can now touch Harry without pain, so it seems to be reasonable that he can also attack without repercussion. Me (Izaskun) LV can touch Harry because some of Harry's protection is now in his own blood, but I think Grace has a point. LV has now the protection that runs through Harry's blood but that doesn't mean he can kill Harry, that doesn't mean that Harry is now unprotected himself. So maybe he can't use the AK on Harry. We don't know for sure because the spell never hit Harry. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 13 18:37:18 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513183718.47291.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57780 Eratz Harry wrote: Too many thoughts going through my head right now; does anyone know where to buy a pensieve? In no particular order, they are: (1) This whole theory of Harry as Voldemort strikes me as, well, nuts. Not only do we have the various time travel problems and factual contradictions (is H/LV a Gryff or a Slyth?), but I think we'd be hard pressed to find any good in LV, though we can certainly find some faults in Harry. Still, at heart I think of Harry as a decent and scrupulous person, which led me to the following acronym. I'm open to suggestions for improvement. ME (becky): Nuts? Not really. What we have here, as is true in many of the posts is a lot of highly intelligent immaginative Harry Potter fans who's had to suffer too long waiting for the next book. The creativity on this site does make for some ingenious and immaginative interpretations and suggestions although most will never see the insides of a Harry Potter book. (2) No doubt JKR's problems with counting have been discussed many times in the archives, but they are sometimes so bad that they make me question all theories about the unnamed fourth man in one of the GoF pensieve scenes, the third missing death eater in the GoF graveyard scene, and so on. The earliest bad one I can think of comes early in the series, right at the end of the sorting ceremony in PS/SS (p. 122 in my US edition). Harry has already been sorted, and the text shortly after states: "And now there were only three people left to be sorted." The names of Thomas, Dean and Turpin, Lisa are mentioned, "then it was Ron's turn". Sounds like three to me, but the next paragraph refers to one more sortee: Zabini, Blaise. I'm hoping no one has any theories about how this is not an error, or how it somehow supports the idea that Harry is Riddle or Voldemort. But I'm sure someone can get creative along these lines. ME: Hey, she's a writer, not a mathamatician! (3) While the text is not perfectly clear about the relationship between certain of the DEs and the students of the same surnames, we are certainly led to think that the students are sons of the corresponding DEs (I think, for example, that either Crabbe or Goyle is mentioned as having a thick build, like his possible son). Now we don't know exactly how many DEs there are -- canon mentions a total of 19 by name (all in GoF, I think), but there may well be a good number of others. After the graveyard scene, for example, Harry says to Moody/Crouch that there were "loads of them". Still, I can't help but notice that 4 of the 19 named DEs -- Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott -- have (probable) sons that are all in the same Hogwarts year (and all in Slytherin, as we'd expect). This strikes me as a very high proportion. Do some of the DEs get together and decide when to conceive children, perhaps as a way to ensure sufficient concentration of their progeny at a given place and time? ME: Not likely. Remember the DE's and Voldemort came about during a certain relatively limited timeframe. Some of them being young and married would also be having kids at the same age. It's just like after the World War II baby boon helped create the youth movement of the 60's but not because all the ex-soldiers got together and decided to have babies at the same time. Don't give these DE's THAT much credit for such deep and subtle planning as that! There is another thing we have no idea of concerning the DE's. There are always indications that a lot of them are in prison although Voldemort doesn't mention many. We have no idea how many of them were either killed by Aurers or died in prision. It sounds like a lot although again, no idea how many. The "spaces" in the ranks of the DE's indicated in GoF were certainly not as many as we've been led to believe. I mean it was insinuated that Mad Eye Moody killed a number of them all by himself although it was also said he always brought them in alive if possible. Also, were all supporters of Voldemort DE's or were the DE's merely the inner upper core of Voldemort supporters? Maybe when they talk about going after his supporters, it included a much wider number then just the DE's themselves. (4) With the exception of the Weasleys and the Creevys, I can't think of any instances where siblings of current Hogwarts students are named, though there is a reference to Dumbledore's brother and of course we know about Lily's sister. Is there a particular tendency for wizard families to have only children? Good Males: Harry, Ron, Rubeus, Albus, Remus, Sirius, James, Arthur Bad Males: Voldemort, Lucius, Severus, Crouch the younger, Peter, Draco and friends, Igor, maybe Quirrell Fairly Useless Males: Gilderoy, Ludovic Good Females: Hermione, Minerva, Molly, Lily, Ginny (not quite major) Bad Females: Rita (Narcissa is certainly not yet a major character) Fairly Useless Females: Sibyll Me: We may find some before the storyline finishes. In fact I bet very much we will. A couple exceptions I have to your list though. SNAPE is unlikeable enough but he wouldn't be a trusted valuable aid to Dumbledore if he was truely bad. He actually has to go into the good catagory dispite his unpleasent tendencies. RITA isn't bad or evil. She's just a shallow, narcissic mudraker who'll do anything for a story to make herself look good. If she were a muggle I'm sure she would be working for the National Enquirer or some other such trash papper. She's just a pest. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue May 13 18:37:06 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:37:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Celestina Warbeck References: <1052849306.3482.77689.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005201c3197e$a7a9c280$d04d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 57781 Maria Alena wrote: >It has already been mentioned that there is the Wireless Wizarding >Network, that we are aware of a singer named Celestina Warbeck (Just >for the record, I think she sounds like Mireille Mathieu) and a band By contrast, Barb wrote: >We do hear the Wizarding Wireless at the Weasley home, with the song- >stylings of Celestina Warbeck. (Why is she making me think she's >the wizarding equivalent of Petula Clark?) One also gets the Personally, I'm torn between thinking of her as a bit like Moira Anderson and a bit like Brenda Wootton Anyone else have a mental picture of what Celestina is like? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue May 13 18:56:52 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:56:52 -0000 Subject: A Twist on Stoned!Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57782 annemehr: My theory has the added attraction (to me, at least), that Voldemort defeats himself, without Harry, who has never killed anyone, having to kill Voldemort to save the WW. There was a thread not so long ago where many of us expressed our distaste to the idea that Harry would ever kill. And I just don't see him ever learning Avada Kedavra (not that that would be the only way one could kill someone). Debbie: My theory is that at the end of the last book, after Dumbledore has died, is that the Dementors kiss Voldemort. Kind of like in "The Lion King" when the hyenas kill their master, Scar. Although my thinking is that Voldemort puts a curse on Harry for them to kiss him, but either Harry repels it or it bounces off him and affixes to Voldemort, who loses his wand in the process so can't "fix" the mistake before he gets kissed. This way, Harry still defeats Voldemort without killing him. Tidys everything up, huh? Me (Bill): I also have never liked the idea of Harry killing Voldemort at the end of Book 7. Having Voldemort Kissed is one option; I was thinking that one of Voldemort's spells goes wrong, or bounces off of Harry and back onto himself, and he loses all of his magical powers and becomes what he hates, a Muggle. So we have three options here (simplifying slightly): 1) V attacks Harry with spell; spell rebounds, kills V 2) V attacks Harry with Dementors; Dementors turn on V, Kiss him 3) V attacks Harry with spell; spell rebounds, turns V into a Muggle Does anyone else have suggestions? I am looking for ways in which Voldemort attacks Harry in some manner, but the attack goes awry and rebounds on Voldemort, leaving Harry's hands clean, and Voldemort harmless. Bill From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue May 13 19:10:35 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:10:35 -0000 Subject: Celestina Warbeck In-Reply-To: <005201c3197e$a7a9c280$d04d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57783 Maria Alena: It has already been mentioned that there is the Wireless Wizarding Network, that we are aware of a singer named Celestina Warbeck (Just for the record, I think she sounds like Mireille Mathieu) Barb: We do hear the Wizarding Wireless at the Weasley home, with the song- stylings of Celestina Warbeck. (Why is she making me think she's the wizarding equivalent of Petula Clark?) Ffred: Personally, I'm torn between thinking of her as a bit like Moira Anderson and a bit like Brenda Wootton Anyone else have a mental picture of what Celestina is like? Me (Bill): I know that the timing is wrong, but when I hear the name 'Celestina Warbeck', I think of a cross between Celine Dion and Dionne Warwick, to make Celine Warwick, although sounding more like Loreena McKennitt. Bill From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue May 13 19:14:38 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:14:38 -0000 Subject: The Evil that is Rita (was: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc.) In-Reply-To: <20030513183718.47291.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57784 Huggs Becky wrote: RITA isn't bad or evil. She's just a shallow, narcissic mudraker who'll do anything for a story to make herself look good. If she were a muggle I'm sure she would be working for the National Enquirer or some other such trash papper. She's just a pest. Me: Oh, I don't know about that. She obviously has a vicious streak. It was after Hermione screamed at her (and Ron did warn her it wasn't a good idea) that Rita wrote that article about Hermione toying with Harry's and Viktor's hearts. Because of that article, Hermione received all of that hate mail (remember the bubotuber pus?), and even Mrs. Weasley was ready to believe it was true. Plus, any Death Eater who saw it and believed it might think that targeting Hermione would be an excellent way to get to Harry, so it was far more dangerous than character assassination. This could really put Hermione--and thus Harry--in great danger. There has already been evidence that Harry is the sort of person to selflessly risk his own safety to save people he cares about. When Ron, Hermione and Cho were in the lake, he was ready to attempt to save all of them, even though his ability to breathe underwater probably would have given out before he could do it. He went into the chamber for his best friend's sister, perhaps also feeling somewhat responsible for her, as he knew she had a crush on him (even before he knew that she was in there because of writing in the diary, and much of her writing in the diary was about him). Rita also conspired with Draco Malfoy, who definitely is not an FoH (Friend of Harry's). And now that Hermione has held her prisoner in a jar, she might be out for revenge for that. I don't think we're going to see the last of Rita, nor that she will prove to be harmless. She hasn't been so far; if she's revenge-minded now, she'll only be getting worse. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Tue May 13 19:32:55 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:32:55 EDT Subject: Stone Defenses WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes Message-ID: <14e.1ef7fb9a.2bf2a267@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57785 In a message dated 5/12/03 8:30:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > They outfoxed their teachers. The teachers set up all those defenses. > Ron is a better chess player than McGonagall. Harry can outfly what > Flitwick charms up and Hermione, at least in terms of logic, > outsmarted Snape. (Took her about a minute, too.) I didn't see it like that. The Trio didn't *outsmart* their teachers per se. They only proved to be on the level with their defenses. And I have some serious questions about those "defenses". If three first years could defeat them, what was the point? I don't think that those are the best defenses they could come up with. I think that the first and the last defenses were the most important, but the others were just fill-ins. I fully believe that there was not way for Quirrelmort to get the Stone out of the Mirror. The "defenses" were, IMHO, just a way to slow a person down. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Tue May 13 19:50:50 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:50:50 -0000 Subject: TBAY When could Harry time travel to? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57786 This post was inspired by the time travel paradox thread. I agree that as JKR has used the time turner once she may use it again. There may be some support for this theory in one of her chats/interviews (sorry, I can't remember where I saw the exact reference). Someone asked directly if Harry would time travel again and her reply was "Not telling". This is in marked contrast to her response when someone asked if Harry would become an animagus. She simply said that no, Harry would not become an animagus as he would be putting his energy into other things. The difference in tone between these answers suggests that JKR was trying to be truthful without giving away a plot twist. So, what era could Harry visit? I have come up with the following scenarios. 1. The Founding Fathers Harry travels back to the foundation of Hogwarts to get advice from Godric Gryffindor on how to defeat the heir of Slytherin, before returning to the present for his final showdown with Voldemort. 2. Back to the Future Actually, despite the title of this theory, it's really back to the past. The name is a play on the first Back to the Future film. Like Michael J Fox, Harry literally bridges the generation gap by travelling back to when his parents were teenagers. Personally, I really like this idea. It has potential to be tremendously moving, as Harry gets to see his parents in the flesh. There is also the possibility that Harry's idealised view of his parents could be shattered by discovering things about them that he would rather not know. Again, this would have great emotional impact. The downside to this theory is that I can't think of a reason why Harry would need to visit this era (although perhaps it could be by accident). 3. Turn Back Time This theory has been used in films ranging from Superman to - ahem - Austin Powers 2 The Spy Who Shagged Me . In this scenario the villain has triumphed. The hero has to travel back to just before the evil ruler's victory and prevent it from happening. I could see how this could apply to Harry and Voldemort, but it seems a bit of a clich?, so I hope it's not an angle that JKR goes for. Does anyone have any comments on these scenarios? Or any possibilities of their own? I would love some feedback. Jo From stine3366 at yahoo.com Tue May 13 16:21:57 2003 From: stine3366 at yahoo.com (Christine) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:21:57 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra In-Reply-To: <01b501c31957$c5cb73c0$814053d1@SaalsD> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57787 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grace" wrote: > Last night, just before I fell off to sleep, I was thinking about a scene in the second movie that shall not be named. > Lucius stalks toward Harry with wand extended and hisses out what sounds to me like "avada." At that point I fell asleep and my mind wandered back to GoF, the graveyard scene. Harry is standing there before LV who is about to finish his off with avada kedavra. > > LV yells "avada kedavra" and the same time Harry yells "Expelliarmus!" > > BUT! That curse didn't work on Harry the last time he tried it, what makes him think it's going to work this time? Getting his body back and a little protection from Harry's blood doesn't change the fact that the AK curse bounces off Harry. I was under the impression while reading the book that the reason AK didnt work on harry was for the same reason that Voldemort couldnt touch him. So, when Voldemort got his body back and became able to touch Harry again, I assumed that he was then also able to kill Harry. I dont know why Lucius would try to kill Harry as he probably knew why AK didn't work on him. But, as that detail was just added in the movie, I wouldn't take it completely seriously. ~Stine From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Tue May 13 18:34:01 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:34:01 -0000 Subject: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57788 "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > (4) With the exception of the Weasleys and the Creevys, I can't think > of any instances where siblings of current Hogwarts students are > named, though there is a reference to Dumbledore's brother and of > course we know about Lily's sister. Is there a particular tendency > for wizard families to have only children? now bowlwoman: We've seen a few other families with multiple children mentioned: The Patil sisters (twins, Parvati is in Gryffindor and Padma is in Ravenclaw) The Delacour sisters (Gabrielle is Fleur's little sister, but I don't know if she has wizarding abilities or not as she's only 8) Molly Weasley's squib second cousin (we can extrapolate from canon that one of Molly Weasley's grandparents must have had a sibling in order for Molly to have a second cousin) Neville's great-uncle Algie and great-aunt Enid (probably either brother or sister of Neville's grandmother) Otto Bagman (Ludo's brother; Mr. Weasley helped him out with a lawnmower) Olive Hornby and her brother (Olive was the student who teased Moaning Myrtle. Myrtle then went on to haunt Olive later on and Myrtle haunted the brother's wedding) Bertha Jorkin's second cousin (see explanation above with Molly Weasley's second cousin) So, not a whole lot of sibilings out there, at least that we've seen in canon. It could very well be customary in the WW to only have 1 child for whatever reason (financial, genetics [the more kids, the more likely to get a squib], tradition, etc). It could also be very possible that JKR doesn't want to create a family tree for each and every student, so she's only mentioning family when it makes sense in the story. We assumed that Draco had a mother (and I believe she was mentioned briefly before GoF), but we never get her name until the QWC match. bowlwoman From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Tue May 13 19:39:22 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:39:22 -0000 Subject: sorting and family influences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57790 Valky wrote: > IMO, it is far from incorrect to assume that Riddle was a Slyth, but > it seems the series is left open for a possible revelation in that > department. Joe S. replies: In SS (American text page 80) Hagrid says: "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin...There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one." Hagrid should know this better than most, since it was Riddle who got him expelled...I'd guess that he's among the few who know that Voldemort was once Tom Riddle. Joe From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Tue May 13 20:25:05 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:25:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: avada kedavra References: Message-ID: <00c301c3198d$bea7b190$de4053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 57791 From: Christine >I was under the impression while reading the book that the reason AK >didnt work on harry was for the same reason that Voldemort couldnt >touch him. So, when Voldemort got his body back and became able to >touch Harry again, I assumed that he was then also able to kill >Harry. I dont know why Lucius would try to kill Harry as he probably >knew why AK didn't work on him. But, as that detail was just added >in the movie, I wouldn't take it completely seriously. me: I don't think this has anything to do with LV touching Harry. The point is, AK bounces off Harry. Grace From meboriqua at aol.com Tue May 13 20:39:22 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:39:22 -0000 Subject: The Evil that is Rita (was: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57792 Huggs Becky wrote: > > RITA isn't bad or evil. She's just a shallow, narcissic mudraker > who'll do anything for a story to make herself look good. If she > were a muggle I'm sure she would be working for the National > Enquirer or some other such trash papper. She's just a pest.> Barb responded: > Oh, I don't know about that. She obviously has a vicious streak.> and >I don't think we're going to see the last of Rita, nor that she will prove to be harmless. She hasn't been so far; if she's revenge-minded now, she'll only be getting worse.> I'm leaning towards agreeing with Barb here. I think people are categorizing characters in the Potterverse as evil only if they are clearly on Voldemort's side, but there are other characters who sure aren't good but may not be DEs, either. Rita is one of those. She's despicable. I don't want to simply repeat what Barb said, but Rita is bad because she is a selfish, dishonest, insensitive witch. The fact that she thinks nothing of smearing 14 year old kids in an obviously widely read publication proves that. Rita may not cry "Purebloods only!" but she does some damaging things. She's a DE in different clothes and with a different approach. --jenny from ravenclaw *********************************** From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 13 20:45:37 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:45:37 -0000 Subject: Stone Defenses WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: <14e.1ef7fb9a.2bf2a267@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57793 Oryomai, commenting on me saying the Trio outsmarted the teachers: > I didn't see it like that. The Trio didn't *outsmart* their teachers per se. > They only proved to be on the level with their defenses. And I have some > serious questions about those "defenses". If three first years could defeat > them, what was the point? I don't think that those are the best defenses > they could come up with. I think that the first and the last defenses were > the most important, but the others were just fill-ins. I fully believe that > there was not way for Quirrelmort to get the Stone out of the Mirror. The > "defenses" were, IMHO, just a way to slow a person down. > So how did it go? Dumbledore went to all the teachers and asked them to come up with ways to protect the Philosopher's Stone. "Hagrid, come up with something mean. That's important." Now, did he say, "The rest of you, come up with your best stuff" and the rest of the staff blew him off and slapped something together? Or did he say, "The rest of you, eh, do whatever you want. Doesn't have to be anything all that tough" and they blew it off on his suggestion? C'mon, give the Trio SOME credit, will you? Darrin From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 13 20:58:50 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Evil that is Rita -and how about Crouch Senior? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513205850.39096.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57794 Huggs Becky wrote: > > RITA isn't bad or evil. She's just a shallow, narcissic mudraker > who'll do anything for a story to make herself look good. If she > were a muggle I'm sure she would be working for the National > Enquirer or some other such trash papper. She's just a pest.> Barb responded: > Oh, I don't know about that. She obviously has a vicious streak.> and >I don't think we're going to see the last of Rita, nor that she will prove to be harmless. She hasn't been so far; if she's revenge-minded now, she'll only be getting worse.> I'm leaning towards agreeing with Barb here. I think people are categorizing characters in the Potterverse as evil only if they are clearly on Voldemort's side, but there are other characters who sure aren't good but may not be DEs, either. Rita is one of those. She's despicable. I don't want to simply repeat what Barb said, but Rita is bad because she is a selfish, dishonest, insensitive witch. The fact that she thinks nothing of smearing 14 year old kids in an obviously widely read publication proves that. Rita may not cry "Purebloods only!" but she does some damaging things. She's a DE in different clothes and with a different approach. Me: I guess it really comes down to your definition of what "evil" is. And intentions play a big part. You make some very good points about smearing a 14 year old kid. That IS pretty dispicable. But I think your definition of Rita as being a "selfish, dishonest, insensitive witch" is more accurate than evil. The difference is between being immoral and amoral. Rita is totally amoral. The fact that her lies could cause personal agony and humiliation to somebody never occures to her if she can make up a good story and get people to read what she writes. (there are leading writers for a couple British tabloids who would make good Rita's) An Immoral person would delight in it. I doubt if Rita ever notices. Shallow, selfish, insensitive and corrupt all are good adjuctives but they still do not come up to (my definition at least) the level of evil. By the by: I would classify Crouch Senior as being basically an evil person in his extreme cruelty even though he was an aurer and worked for the good guys! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From richasi at azlance.com Tue May 13 21:05:40 2003 From: richasi at azlance.com (Richasi) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:05:40 -0400 Subject: Stone Defenses WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57795 Oryomai, commenting on Darrin saying the Trio outsmarted the teachers: > > I didn't see it like that. The Trio didn't *outsmart* their > teachers per se. > > They only proved to be on the level with their defenses. And > I have some > > serious questions about those "defenses". If three first years > could defeat > > them, what was the point? *SNIP* Then Darrin Said: > C'mon, give the Trio SOME credit, will you? Now Me: You know, there are a few things that are more obvious to a child then it is to an adult. So, while I don't feel the "defenses" are anything special there was thought involved and there are adults who look beyond the obvious solution to a problem whereas a child many not necessary overlook the simple, obvious solutions. Hence the Devil's Snare and Fluffy. The chess game requires a bit of strategy and not every adult knows how to play the game, and that may be true in the wizarding world as well, though obviously there's nothing to support it either way. The Key is another. The mirror itself is, of course, brilliant and really the only thing that would be needed to protect the stone against anyone who may want to use it. The "defenses" are really only a nuisance. Richasi From lissbell at colfax.com Tue May 13 21:12:44 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:12:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in PoA References: <1052836151.3799.53750.m12@yahoogroups.com> <19197.204.248.21.50.1052846547.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: <3EC15FCC.AA6B33A@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57796 Dave wrote: > My opinion on this is that Rowlings introduced the time turner > to do three things: > > 1) Introduce a device that allows her to explore the concept of being in > two places at the same time, primarily to work Hermione's character > development. > 2) Give us a way for Harry to win in the end, while appearing to be in > mortal danger. > 3) Reinforce what she says in interviews about James and Lily being > really, truly, completely dead. > > Of these, I think the third is really critical, but the other two are > still important. > > WRT the "ocean liner" comment, I think the "big trip" isn't coming, but > it's already happened. Lissa replied: That's a fair point of view. I can see how a person could argue that Hermione's strange class load was the foreshadowing and the Buckbeak/Black rescue the payoff. (nods) What I can't understand is how any of the items on your list--other than exploration of the 2-places-at-once concept--necessitate time travel. (And given that no paradoxical results were engendered by Harry and Hermione's time trip, I don't think that particular concept truly was explored to any depth.) If you can explain that to me, Dave, I think I might be able to consider that Rowling won't return to this plot device. Of course, you're under no obligation to try to enlighten me. Besides, I'm a silly obtuse thing. I'd probably still just be puzzled and lost. (silly smile) Cheers, Lissa From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 13 21:40:26 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:40:26 -0000 Subject: Stone Defenses WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57797 > Then Darrin Said: > > > C'mon, give the Trio SOME credit, will you? > > Now Me: > > You know, there are a few things that are more obvious to a child > then it is to an adult. So, while I don't feel the "defenses" are > anything special there was thought involved and there are adults > who look beyond the obvious solution to a problem whereas a child > many not necessary overlook the simple, obvious solutions. Hence > the Devil's Snare and Fluffy. > > The chess game requires a bit of strategy and not every adult > knows how to play the game, and that may be true in the wizarding > world as well, though obviously there's nothing to support it > either way. The Key is another. > > The mirror itself is, of course, brilliant and really the only > thing that would be needed to protect the stone against anyone > who may want to use it. The "defenses" are really only a nuisance. > > Richasi Actually, I said more than just what you quoted. I asked how Dumbledore asked the other teachers to come up with defenses. Did he say to do their best or to blow it off, because he was going to allow a first-year to get to the Mirror? You're telling me that if Dumbledore asked Snape to come up with a tough logic puzzle, he would have gone half-ass on it? Or would he have gone along with letting a first-year get past him. Because if it was the best Snape could do, Hermione beat his best in a minute. We know Quirrell got past all that stuff, but he did have the spirit of the brightest student ever at Hogwarts helping him, too. Darrin -- Wants the Trio to get their props. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 13 21:45:56 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:45:56 -0000 Subject: The Evil that is Rita -and how about Crouch Senior? In-Reply-To: <20030513205850.39096.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: >>Rita is totally amoral. The fact that her lies could cause personal agony and humiliation to somebody never occures to her By the by: I would classify Crouch Senior as being basically an evil person inhis extreme cruelty even though he was an aurer and worked for the good guys!<< I don't see that Crouch Sr. showed any rejoicing over the agony and humiliation of the people he sent to Azkaban. And isn't Voldemort just as cruel and unjust when he kills Cedric without bothering to torture him first as he is when he tries to kill Harry? I think Rita is perfectly well aware of the cruelty of her story about Hermione--or don't you agree that her motive was revenge? Pippin From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 13 21:36:38 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:36:38 -0000 Subject: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote: > > The Patil sisters (twins, Parvati is in Gryffindor and Padma is in > Ravenclaw) Oops on me; I completely forgot about them. > It could also be very possible that JKR doesn't want to create a > family tree for each and every student, so she's only mentioning > family when it makes sense in the story. I can certainly buy this argument, but given how many years students go to Hogwarts, there is a very good chance that they would overlap with any siblings, and you'd think they'd come up in conversation once in a while. I was certainly well aware of my school friends' siblings, though perhaps only the ones who were very close in age got discussed with any regularity. Is JKR an only child? > We assumed that Draco had a mother I suppose so, though for a while it seemed that he might have arisen from the blood of a dead snake... Ersatz Harry, who wonders whether Skeeter is more or less evil than Fudge From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 13 22:47:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:47:21 -0000 Subject: So long as we're talking about time travel... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > ...edited... > > Awfully darn convenient it put them right next to the Entrance Hall > though, dontcha think? > > Darrin bboy_mn: We know magic can be modified by intend, or, perhaps more correctly, our observations of events in the story would seem to imply that, and it is a popular theory. So I speculate that the magic of the Time Turner was modified by Hermione intent. She knew that the place she needed to be if she was going to effectively help, was the entrance hall. So she coupled the changing in time of the Time Turner with her desire to be in another more effective location. Bada-bing Bada-doom. bboy_mn From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 13 22:56:34 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Evil that is Rita -and how about Crouch Senior? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513225634.39351.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57801 pippin_999 wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: >>Rita is totally amoral. The fact that her lies could cause personal agony and humiliation to somebody never occures to her By the by: I would classify Crouch Senior as being basically an evil person inhis extreme cruelty even though he was an aurer and worked for the good guys!<< I don't see that Crouch Sr. showed any rejoicing over the agony and humiliation of the people he sent to Azkaban. And isn't Voldemort just as cruel and unjust when he kills Cedric without bothering to torture him first as he is when he tries to kill Harry? I think Rita is perfectly well aware of the cruelty of her story about Hermione--or don't you agree that her motive was revenge? Pippin ME: Oh I'm sure revenge did play a big role although if a good nasty story about Hermoine presented herself Rita would have wrote it anyways. Personally though I thought Crouch Senior is very evil but as for Lord Voldemort, he doesn't even bare mentioning as he is the absolute of evil. And I think he's beyond just torture. Torturing somebody means their life has a certain value to you at least in a preverse way so that you wish to torment them. Their feelings, even pain and suffering has some meaning. Other people's life has no meaning at all to Lord Voldemort. He tortured Potter not for pleasure but just as a demonstration to the DE's of his superiority. But there is a big difference between a nasty lying reporter who writes fallacious gossip to the totally evil Voldemort or even the cruel and hard Crouch. I'm not sure I'm saying this right or not, actually and no Crouch isn't in nearly the same catagory as Volemort. But I don't think I'd lump Rita with either of them. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed May 14 00:31:50 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TBAY: The Evil That is Crouch Sr. In-Reply-To: <20030513225634.39351.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030514003150.61395.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57802 "What's this?" cries Eileen, suddenly jumping out of nowhere. "People calling my Barty evil?" "But he is," says Cindy. "No. He. Is. Not." says Eileen. "He's just misguided! And tragic!" "And dead sexy," mutters Cindy. "But I think he's evil," says Becky, standing her ground. "That, Becky, is entirely unsupported by the text!" cries Eileen. "Barty Crouch Sr. is a good guy!" "I would classify Crouch Senior as being basically an evil person inhis extreme cruelty," says Becky stubbornly. "But I don't see that Crouch Sr. showed any rejoicing over the agony and humiliation of the people he sent to Azkaban," says Pippin. Eileen looks at Pippin funnily. "Really?" she says. "You don't?" "No," says Pippin. "Ummm... ok," says Eileen. "I know I've been rather infamous on the list for Crouch apologetics, but I swear I'd never have dreamed of saying that Crouch wasn't enjoying those first two Pensieve scenes, and although personally distraught in the third, taking some bent pleasure out of the proceedings." Becky looks at Eileen mystified. "Here, let me explain Eileen," says Cindy to Becky. "She's all bark and no bite when it comes to Crouch Sr. She comes running into defend him and usually ends up undermining him." "I mean, he seemed to me to enjoy making Karkaroff feel he was going back to Azkaban, even though he intended to release him. And he perhaps overstepped the bounds of prudence in the Bagman scene, to the point where he was actually booed by the crowd, to harass befuddled Ludo Bagman. No, I think he very much enjoyed what he was doing." "And even in the scene with his son?" "'Let them rot there!' Oh, he's in top dramatic form. While he may be suffering badly, he's not exactly letting that get in the way of his participation in the scene. Let's face it. Barty Crouch Sr. liked intimidating people." "And he was evil!" says Becky. "Well, maybe," says Eileen. "But he's got a really cool redemption scene." Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed May 14 00:44:58 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:44:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel Paradoces References: <4.2.0.58.20030513033038.00997280@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <00ab01c319b2$0bee3720$0ea2cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 57803 Richelle Votaw admitted her brain already hurts before trying to understand time travel when she asked: >suddenly the patronus comes and he sees what he thinks is his dad, but is >himself. But how did he get away from the dementor to get to the time >turner to go back in time and save himself (and Buckbeak & Sirius). GulPlum responded: > The thing I love the most about the sequence is that Harry confirms exactly > what had happened when he says later on that "I knew I could do it this > time because I'd already done it". Harry, writhing on the ground, sees a > powerful Patronus. Later on, (time-turned)Harry, realising that the person > casting the Patronus is himself, knows that he has it in himself to cast a > powerful Patronus. Okay, that just goes to show how stupid I really am. I always thought Harry knew he could cast the patronus that time because of the one he had cast at the Quidditch match when Malfoy and Co. came dressed as dementors. You know, when Lupin said "That was some Patronus" then told Harry they weren't dementors at all. But regardless Harry had cast the patronus successfully. And so I thought it was from there that he knew he could do it. But what if, say, the Dementor had performed the Dementor's Kiss on Harry in the first timeline? Then Harry wouldn't have been able to get to the time turner to go back in time. Which means the D's Kiss wasn't performed, or else he wouldn't have been able to change it. Were there just always two timelines? No, that can't work. Grr, I give up. My feeble minded brain has been around 7 year olds too long. Richelle From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 00:50:52 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:50:52 -0000 Subject: Evil females/Time Turner (WAS:Re: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57804 RE: The discussion about the Time Turner being a "Deux Ex Machina" (i.e., a plot device suddenly created to solve the plot, leading to the climax feeling forced) I'd like to point out that JKR has probably had the Time Turner in mind since day 1. We know she has pretty much everything planned out in her head to begin with, she's told us so. I actually (sort of) thought of Time Travel in CoS, when the discussion of choosing electives for third year was brought up. The text reads something along the lines of "Hermione took no one's advice but signed up for everything." I've gone through the process of choosing electives for school, and the rule that goes along with it is, "sign up for x amount of classes," simply because the schoolday only allows for so much time and therefore so many classes. Quite honestly, the first time I read that sentence, the first thought that popped into my mind was, "How is she going to do that??" I was of course, rewarded with an answer in PoA. =) But I'd just like to use that as an example of how the use of Time Travel wasn't a DEM at all. Ersatz Harry wrote: > > > (5) With the exception of Rita Skeeter, all of the significant malevolent (or malevolent-seeming) characters that I can think of are male. I offer up the categories and lists below, but cut me some slack on whether individual characters are truly good or bad. Good Males: Harry, Ron, Rubeus, Albus, Remus, Sirius, James, Arthur Bad Males: Voldemort, Lucius, Severus, Crouch the younger, Peter, Draco and friends, Igor, maybe Quirrell Fairly Useless Males: Gilderoy, Ludovic Good Females: Hermione, Minerva, Molly, Lily, Ginny (not quite major) Bad Females: Rita (Narcissa is certainly not yet a major character) Fairly Useless Females: Sibyll I would certainly love to hear comments about the distinct lack (so far) of nasty female characters. > > > Now Laura: First off, I wouldn't label Snape as "bad"- but that's a *whole* different arguement. Also, the trend seems to be that in general, there is a lack of important female characters, period: good or evil. We have Hermione and Minerva in the forefront of the "good female" category. Ginny isn't very major yet, and Molly is somewhat major but as of yet has shown no real...importance. I love Molly, of course, and I hope things change in the future, but as far as I can tell, so far she has shown no signs of being particularly powerful or significant to the plot. That doesn't mean she isn't powerful, she just hasn't shown it yet. Some goes for Lily- I'm sure she's a *very* important character in the series, but so far she's hardly been developed at all. (And there's also the fact that she's sort of...dead. ) So, although I hope this trend changes in the future, there are few significant females in the plot to begin with (At least in comparison with the amount of significant males.) As to answer your question, I'd say that The Woman in the Pensieve (assumed by many to be Mrs. Lestrange) is quite evil. She hasn't been developed extensively yet, but, if we assume her to be Mrs. Lestrange: First off, she was/is a DE. If we don't assume her to be Mrs. Lestrange, we DO know that she was sitting in the chained chair as if it were a throne and loudly proclaimed the return of the Dark Lord. She claimed that she would be rewarded for her faithfulness to him. Not to mention that she took part in the torture of the Longbottoms. At least, we assume so, and if she didn't- well then, she took credit for someone *else's* evil deeds. I don't know about you, but that gives me the chills. So even though she isn't developed yet, I strongly suspect she will be, and also strongly suspect she will be the most evil female character in the series. Then again, maybe its all just because women are nicer than men. Joking, joking. I have enough experience to know that's not true. -Laura From Resqgal911 at msn.com Wed May 14 01:07:54 2003 From: Resqgal911 at msn.com (Tammy Bianchi) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:07:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Twist on Stoned!Harry References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57805 Bill Wrote: I also have never liked the idea of Harry killing Voldemort at the end of Book 7. Having Voldemort Kissed is one option; I was thinking that one of Voldemort's spells goes wrong, or bounces off of Harry and back onto himself, and he loses all of his magical powers and becomes what he hates, a Muggle. So we have three options here (simplifying slightly): 1) V attacks Harry with spell; spell rebounds, kills V 2) V attacks Harry with Dementors; Dementors turn on V, Kiss him 3) V attacks Harry with spell; spell rebounds, turns V into a Muggle Does anyone else have suggestions? I am looking for ways in which Voldemort attacks Harry in some manner, but the attack goes awry and rebounds on Voldemort, leaving Harry's hands clean, and Voldemort harmless. Me (Tammy): I would like to add some suggestions. I would hate to see Harry kill Voldemort out of revenge or as an assasination. I think that it would only be proper for H to kill V at the end, but in a noble way. To end this fabulous story with V still walking the earth would be a shame. Here is my favorite: 4) V finds out about Snapes spying and H attacks V to save Snapes life. Thus bringing the books full circle. Unfortunately I don't see Snape making it to the end. I envision some sort of showdown between Snape and Lucious. This would be an awesome duel. Tammy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Wed May 14 01:18:32 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:18:32 -0000 Subject: The Evil that is Rita -and how about Crouch Senior? In-Reply-To: <20030513225634.39351.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: >Oh I'm sure revenge did play a big role although if a good nasty story about Hermoine presented herself Rita would have wrote it anyways. Personally though I thought Crouch Senior is very evil but as for Lord Voldemort, he doesn't even bare mentioning as he is the absolute of evil. And I think he's beyond just torture. Torturing somebody means their life has a certain value to you at least in a preverse way so that you wish to torment them. Their feelings, even pain and suffering has some meaning. Other people's life has no meaning at all to Lord Voldemort. He tortured Potter not for pleasure but just as a demonstration to the DE's of his superiority. But there is a big difference between a nasty lying reporter who writes fallacious gossip to the totally evil Voldemort or even the cruel and hard Crouch. I'm not sure I'm saying this right or not, actually and no Crouch isn't in nearly the same catagory as Volemort. But I don't think I'd lump Rita with either of them.> First, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that someone who tortures has some value for the lives of the people they're torturing. When you think about all of the times in history where people have been tortured, I really cannot think of too many examples of their lives being valued in any way. I agree that Voldemort was showing his superiority in front of the DEs when he tortured Harry, but I also believe he enjoyed it. He certainly has been angry enough at Harry to seek revenge after all of those years without a body and we know he's a cruel wizard as it is (the murders of Frank Bryce, Cedric, the Potters and the Riddles are ample evidence). I see no evidence of Voldemort valuing any life. Back to Rita again - she may not physically torture people, but she sure as hell makes them suffer. I guess I feel as strongly about her as Darrin does about the Slytherins - Rita Skeeter has no respect for anyone she encounters, from Dumbledore to Harry. In fact, for reasons I don't know, she seems to have contempt for everyone. I cannot in any way excuse her behavior because the consequences were quite serious and as Barb pointed out, could have been very dangerous as well. The only reason I can think of to excuse Rita from the ranks of the DEs is that she couldn't be bothered to join the group. Rita likes to take all the credit herself. Of course, my personal loathing of the paparazzi clouds my objectivity when it comes to Rita Skeeter, but she is baaaaaad. Mean. Vicious. Heinous. I guess I'd have to say she's evil. --jenny from ravenclaw ******** From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 14 01:28:34 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:28:34 -0000 Subject: The Evil that is Rita -and how about Crouch Senior? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57808 Jenny wrote: > Back to Rita again - she may not physically torture people, but she > sure as hell makes them suffer. I guess I feel as strongly about her > as Darrin does about the Slytherins - Rita Skeeter has no respect for > anyone she encounters, from Dumbledore to Harry. In fact, for reasons > I don't know, she seems to have contempt for everyone. I cannot in > any way excuse her behavior because the consequences were quite > serious and as Barb pointed out, could have been very dangerous as > well. The only reason I can think of to excuse Rita from the ranks of > the DEs is that she couldn't be bothered to join the group. Rita > likes to take all the credit herself. > > Of course, my personal loathing of the paparazzi clouds my objectivity > when it comes to Rita Skeeter, but she is baaaaaad. Mean. Vicious. > Heinous. I guess I'd have to say she's evil. > > --jenny from ravenclaw ******** Oh, I hate Rita too. In fact, I think I hate her more than I hate any Slyth. You see, I'm a newspaper reporter, and I absolutely despise Rita. She is everything that is hideous about our profession. She creates stories and fits "facts" to them, uses her power for personal agendas, completely makes up quotes and is just the worst parody of journalism. And, given how much of a public figure JKR was by the time she wrote GoF, I'm not surprised if this is her take on the London press -- which are just horrible. In the first story about Harry-Hermione, she referred to Hermione as a "stunningly pretty Muggle-born" and in the second, referred to her as "plain" and Pansy as "pretty and vivacious." Personal agenda. On a less catty, and more serious note, she has completely changed Harry's reputation in the Wizard World. He is now "disturbed and dangerous." She revealed that he was a Parselmouth. She talked about his scar hurting. And, while I know I shouldn't say this... Oh hell, who cares. Hermione should've stepped on her. Screw the glass cage. Darrin -- Feeling bloodthirsty today. From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Tue May 13 22:46:45 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:46:45 -0000 Subject: Families in HP (WAS: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57809 bowlwoman wrote: > > It could also be very possible that JKR doesn't want to create a > > family tree for each and every student, so she's only mentioning > > family when it makes sense in the story. Ersatz Harry wrote: > I can certainly buy this argument, but given how many years students > go to Hogwarts, there is a very good chance that they would overlap > with any siblings, and you'd think they'd come up in conversation once > in a while. I was certainly well aware of my school friends' > siblings, though perhaps only the ones who were very close in age got > discussed with any regularity. bowlwoman responded: I see your point about at least mentioning siblings to your school friends. All of my friends' siblings were actually friends with my little sister, so we were all one big happy family. :) (I grew up in a VERY small town.) Although, we have to factor in that we're looking at the Hogwarts students through Harry's eyes and he doesn't know all the students in Hogwarts that well. Everyone there pretty much knows who he is (I mean c'mon..he's Harry Potter!), but that doesn't mean he knows them well enough to engage in a personal conversation about family members. He is, of course, in close contact with the Weasleys, and Pavarti is in his own house (not to mention her twin went to to the Yule Ball with Ron). We know Hermione is an only child (and we assume Neville is as well), but we haven't heard anything about Lavendar Brown, Dean Thomas or Seamus Finnigan. These would be the students with which Harry would have the most intimate contact, so the fact that we don't know about their familial status is intriguing indeed. Ersatz Harry also wrote: >Is JKR an only child? I know she has a sister, it's mentioned in her bio on the Bloomsbury website: http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/wizard/section/rowling.asp I read somewhere that her sister's name is Di, but it's not mentioned in this bio. bowlwoman From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 01:30:59 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:30:59 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra In-Reply-To: <002001c3197b$8d57f710$6416243e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57810 Izaskun wrote: >LV can touch Harry because some of Harry's protection is now in his >own blood, but I think Grace has a point. LV has now the protection >that runs through Harry's blood but that doesn't mean he can kill >Harry, that doesn't mean that Harry is now unprotected himself. So >maybe he can't use the AK on Harry. We don't know for sure because >the spell never hit Harry. So if this is the case, doesn't that mean the Voldemort then would also not die if he is AKed? And then how would Voldemort die if he can't be AKed? Greicy From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 01:46:15 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:46:15 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter should be stepped on/MIA (Re: The Evil that is Rita ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57811 Darrin wrote: > And, while I know I shouldn't say this... Oh hell, who cares. > > Hermione should've stepped on her. Screw the glass cage. > > Darrin > -- Feeling bloodthirsty today. Yes, I hope Hermione realizes that trapping her could cause some bad repercussions and squishes her to the point she's stuck on her shoe! I have a question: Wouldn't anyone notice that Rita is missing? Hermione is supposed to set her free once she got to London, wouldn't that be a few days after the 3rd task? Wouldn't anyone notice and "worry"? Greicy, who thinks "Squish Rita" is a good band name =) From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed May 14 01:55:01 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:55:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: The Evil That is Crouch Sr. -- "It's Getting Hot In Here!" In-Reply-To: <20030514003150.61395.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57812 "What's this?" cried Eileen, suddenly jumping out of nowhere. "People calling my Barty evil?" Cindy started, her head whipping around in the direction of the Eileen's shrieking. "Good grief, Eileen. Do you have to jump out at people like that? Are you trying to give me a heart attack or something." Cindy wrapped her enormous towel around herself more securely and lowered herself back to the damp wooden bench. "And close the door! You're letting all the heat out." "Well," Eileen said in a small, dejected voice, "Dicentra pops out of nowhere all the time, and no one gets mad at her." "And Dicentra closes the door to the sauna behind her," Cindy said, sweat dribbling off her chin into her lap. "That makes it OK. You, on the other hand, are going to make me catch my death of cold." Her hand clutching desperately at the flimsy knot in her own towel, Eileen reclined on an empty bench on the other side of the sauna, glaring at Pippin and Becky. "My dearest Barty is *not* Evil!" Her voice boomed off the tile ceiling and echoed as though she were speaking in a cavernous Star Chamber. "No. He. Is. Not," she insisted. "He's just misguided! And tragic! Don't forget tragic! Tragic is *hot!*" "But I think he's evil," said Becky, standing her ground, her face flushed. "That, Becky, is entirely unsupported by the text!" cried Eileen. "Barty Crouch Sr. ?-" "-- is a good guy!" Cindy finished. She took an enormous swig from a bottle of blue Gatorade and flashed Eileen a mischievous smile. "Hey, that's *my* line!" Eileen said indignantly. "You despise Barty. You've said it again and again. You say the man never even *repented,* for heaven's sake, and that's critical to Crouch apologetics! What -? what's *wrong* with you, anyway? Is it the heat? It's the *heat,* isn't it? You've been in here too long and have gone all mental or something." "No," Cindy said cheerfully. "I've finally seen reason, that's all. See, you've challenged me again and again to rise up and refute your Crouch apologetics. Each time, I have quickly changed the subject. But with OoP approaching fast, threatening the very *lives* of those of us brave enough to remain in the Bay, I thought it was time I came clean. Seeing as how I might be about to meet my maker and all. So I'm converting." "But -?" Eileen stammered. "You ?- you *never* admit when you're wrong! I -? where am I? Am I on 'Candid Camera?'" "Nope," Cindy said, dialing the thermostat up several clicks as the others muttered their disapproval. "Power is sexy. I have to give you that. He did try to undo his evil deeds outside the Forbidden Forest. He probably thought he was doing the right thing at all times, fighting evil with evil and all. Now, I'm not going anywhere near that foul little Winky/Crouch Sr. ship you've got going with Elkins, though. You can forget that. "And besides." Cindy lowered her face and mopped her brow with the edge of Pippin's towel, who recoiled in horror and inched toward the corner, her eyes fixed on the dirt now streaked across her white towel. "Fair is fair. If you can't defend a theory in the Bay, then you ought to abandon it, don't you think? I'm pretty sure it is in the Theory Bay Rulebook, but this towel doesn't have any pockets. Anyway, I have made no progress attacking Crouch Sr. So I give. You win. Uncle. I mean, that's the right thing to do here ?- surrender, right? Imagine that someone launched an attack on the Big Bang and I had no answer. I'd have to sink the destroyer, would I not?" Eileen sat motionless, her chest heaving with each labored breath. Cindy smiled sweetly at Eileen, who gaped back at her. "How about you pass me one of those CRABCUSTARD things you like so much." She took the treat from Eileen and held it to the light as it oozed all over her fingers. "Uh . . . these things don't need refrigeration or anything, do they?" Eileen shook her head slowly in disbelief as Cindy slurped the CRABCUSTARD from the enamel cup in one gulp. She passed the empty cup to Eileen, who held it gingerly between two fingers as she pitched it into the trash can by the door. ****************** Cindy From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed May 14 02:09:37 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 02:09:37 -0000 Subject: The Evil that is Rita -and how about Crouch Senior? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57813 Becky Walkden wrote: > > >>Rita is totally amoral. > The fact that her lies could cause personal agony and > humiliation to somebody never occures to her > But it's not agony and humiliation that makes her reprehensible. The lies about what Harry and Hermione are to each other could result in someone, most likely Hermione, being placed in grave peril, and possibly also Harry and even Ron, if they both try to help her. The earlier article referred to by Dumbledore in which he is called an 'obsolete dingbat' doesn't seem to embarrass him in the least, but it could undermine confidence in him and his administration at the school, which could lead to his removal and the endangerment of the school. What she does has ramifications far beyond embarrassing people, and she is remorseless about the damage she causes. Thanks to her, a mob of angry villagers could have come to the castle asking for Hagrid's blood--and they might yet. The article about Harry having seizures could have similar repercussions. Even if she doesn't write again, the damage is done. According to her, Harry's a dangerous madman. Why should anyone believe him when he says that Voldemort is back? Her actions are malicious and dangerous. People have been and will continue to be hurt because of what she has already done. I think we haven't seen the end of the ripples emanating from Rita's articles. Becky Walkden wrote: > By the by: I would classify Crouch Senior as being basically an > evil person inhis extreme cruelty even though he was an aurer > and worked for the good guys!<< "pippin_999" wrote: > I don't see that Crouch Sr. showed any rejoicing over the agony > and humiliation of the people he sent to Azkaban. And isn't > Voldemort just as cruel and unjust when he kills Cedric without > bothering to torture him first as he is when he tries to kill > Harry? In the end, Crouch was trying to do a difficult job at a terrifically difficult time and his motive was to protect people. To a certain extent I think he was also trying to protect his career, and by putting Sirius away without a trial he may also have been pandering a bit to people who wanted the dirty traitor put away, not offered a nice fair trial where he could try to justify what he'd done or claim he was innocent. However, it's also pretty clear that he thinks that he's protecting other people still when he does things to protect his own career. He probably thinks he's the last best hope of the wizarding world, and if he lost his post, it would all go to hell and the DEs would take over. We have no way of knowing whether he was right--he might very well have been. And one must remember that, when all was said and done, he had compassion for both his wife and son and engineered the switch that allowed his son to leave prison. While the compassion for his wife was not out of place, in retrospect we know that his compassion for his son WAS misplaced. In the end, it was not Crouch's cruelty but his capacity to risk his job for his family members that led to his son being able to assist Voldemort in coming back. It was good intentions that led to the tragedy; if Crouch had remained implacable and unmoved in the face of his wife's sorrow and his son's possible innocence, he could have been accused of behaving like a cruel martinet--but one who wasn't in danger of unwittingly loosing a dangerous criminal on the world. Perhaps Crouch, Sr. actually has more in common with Harry than we'd like to admit. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 14 02:25:24 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 02:25:24 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter should be stepped on/MIA (Re: The Evil that is Rita ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57814 Greicy, > > I have a question: Wouldn't anyone notice that Rita is missing? > Hermione is supposed to set her free once she got to London, wouldn't > that be a few days after the 3rd task? Wouldn't anyone notice > and "worry"? > Worry? Her editors are probably wondering where her damn story on the Triwizard Tournament is! Just a small story -- a brief in the lexicon of newspapers -- ran about it. First tournament in a bajillion years and a brief? Uh-uh, not happening. We don't know if the Prophet has any competition in the form of a news program on the Wireless, or if there is another paper out there, but the death of Diggory was just announced to 300-1,000 kids, many with parents in the wizard world. Diggory's death has to have gotten to a reporter by now. No, her editors are wondering where she is, why she hasn't checked in, and whether they can actually watch her burn when they fire her for being gone so long. Darrin -- Squished Rita would indeed be a good name for a band. From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Wed May 14 02:28:24 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 02:28:24 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57815 On Monday, May 12, Valky wrote: > Dumbledore and Hermione both imply, with feeling, that the > constraints over time manipulation are complex and need careful > planning. Perhaps at some stage Dumbledore realised that saving Lily > and James was NOT inconsequential to the thread of time and posed > more of a threat to Harry and themselves than the events that had > already unfolded. Me(Linda): With so little canon on the subject, theory is just about all we have (not withstanding what information we do have on the timeturner) so theory is what we'll go with. IMO there is no other subject in literature as confusing as time travel. Possibilities for paradoxes are endless and it is difficult enough to keep track of who is doing what and when they are doing it without the added complication of those involved possibly being in two places at once. Like some other members of our esteemed list, I have to wonder about other means of time travel in the WW. I believe that the use of the time turner, by its' very nature(one hour increments per turn), is probably the most benign of what is avilable for the manipulation of time, that is if it is not the only available means. That would beg the question of what else is available. I really don't have any ideas on what other devices or spells may be available but after all we are theorizing here. If anyone else wants to take a crack at it, do so with my blessing. Which leads me to.... Dan had earlier written: > Once you go down that "time travel" road you have a hell of a time > keeping things in check. The Star Trek writers did it FAR too often, > until they got to the point that they had to introduce some kind of > "Timeline Police" (don't remember what it was called exactly) to "keep > the timeline clean", that the Federation creates after they completely > master time travel. I think JKR is going to have to introduce some > serious limitation to time travel in general. Me again: Hmmmmm. OK. I have a confesson to make. Not only am I thoroughly addicted to Harry Potter....I am also a trekkie. (More to the many books that have really developed the characters as opposed to what has been done on both the small and large screens.) Anyway, here's my take on what Dan wrote. I think that he may have been on the right track with his allusion to Star Trek. Yes, the time travel angle was way over done but as the series progressed the multitude of writers involved realized the problem and took steps to deal with it. The "Department of Temporal Investigations" was born. (I know this seems to be getting OT but please bear with me.) This department was formed to make sure the correct timeline stayed intact. They would travel back in time to where time had been tampered with and try to minimize the damage. It seems to me that if time travel in ways other than the time turner are available to the WW, that there is probably a similar department at the MOM. McGonagall needed to campaign heavily in order for Hermione to be allowed to use the time turner. Exactly whom did she submit her request to? Cannon has not given us any department in the MOM that seems to handle this kind of thing.Of course there is always the 'unspeakables' but we don't have any information (yet) as to what their function is. Most of the departments that we know of were intruduced to the reader by Arthur Weasley when he was pointing out differant ministry wizards at to Harry and Hermione at the word cup. We really only got a peak there and IMHO there must be many, many more departments that we simply don't know anything about. My point is that the JKR, and by extension, the WW, have already thought of regulating time travel and have already dealt with it. It's just that we, as readers, have not yet been apprised of the ins and outs of this particular issue. Considering the amount of notes JKR has on everything in the WW, I don't believe this is far fetched. Later in her post Valky wrote: > I remember someone posting a possible torture for Lily, recently. > Re:5th person at Godrics Hollow > Imagine the life of Lily, widowed of James and Imperiused under the > care of Peter 'Wormtail' Pettigrew. *shudders* A fate worse than > death? Likely. I have two knuts more: Guilty. That post was mine. However, I never intended it to mean that Pettigrew would "keep' Lily. I was thinking more along the lines of him making a request out of desperation that he knew LV would never honor anyway. ( If anyone wants to see my original post it's 57478.) Would *Paradox Theory* be a good name for a band? -Linda From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Wed May 14 02:55:09 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:55:09 -0500 Subject: avada kedavra References: Message-ID: <012a01c319c4$3cb846e0$814053d1@SaalsD> No: HPFGUIDX 57816 Izaskun wrote: >LV can touch Harry because some of Harry's protection is now in his >own blood, but I think Grace has a point. LV has now the protection >that runs through Harry's blood but that doesn't mean he can kill >Harry, that doesn't mean that Harry is now unprotected himself. So >maybe he can't use the AK on Harry. We don't know for sure because >the spell never hit Harry. Greicy wrote: So if this is the case, doesn't that mean the Voldemort then would also not die if he is AKed? And then how would Voldemort die if he can't be AKed? now me: I think LV would have to resort to some method other than magic to kill Harry. He nearly died falling off his broom during a Quidditch match, he could have drown in the lake, got burned to a crisp by the dragon. I think there are lots of ways to kill Harry. Or, if LV manages to convince the Dementors to side with him, he doesn't need to kill Harry. A little kiss would accomplish more. Think of the affect it would have on the wizarding world if they knew Harry had gotten a Dementor's kiss. That would be psychologically more effective than killing Harry. LV makes mistakes and he's tried several time now to duel with Harry in one form or another. At the end of the first book, I think he must have tried possessing Harry and discovered that he couldn't. Harry wakes up in the hospital and Dumbledore tells Harry he nearly died protecting the stone. In the second book, Riddle pits himself (and his snake) against Harry in another challenge and loses again. He forgets about the unique qualities that a phoenix has. Odd. I doubt that I'd have trouble remembering something like that. He over estimates Wormtail's ability to keep Crouch Sr. in check. And then in book four, he again tries the dueling idea with Harry and loses again. You would think after getting his body blasted away by trying the AK curse, and spending 14 years trying to get it back, he'd remember it didn't work the last time. Could LV have been so stupid as to think it would work this time? This time, in the graveyard, he's put protection on himself - but he didn't remove the protection from Harry. I do think that LV got more of Wormtail's blood in him from the hand that he got from a vial of blood out of Harry. Would he have considered that? If he took the time to figure out this recipe for getting a body back, knowing that immortality is going to have to wait just a bit, and he took the time to figure out that Harry is the one he wants as part of his recipe, then you'd think he'd also have put more thought into who the willing servant would have been. Why Wormtail? Why not Crouch Jr. who was more than willing to give everything for him. Wormtail's motivations are centered around his own self preservation - but Crouch Jr. has the idealist's willingness, and I would think that would have made his recipe a more powerful one. Crouch says it would take a very powerful wizard to fool the GoF, meaning himself. Wormtail is described by the teachers and his former friends as being weak. I think in the next book we find out the weakness in LV's recipe. Grace From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed May 14 03:00:36 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 03:00:36 -0000 Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57817 Stretching her arms back behind her back and breathing in deeply again... ----- Darrin broke down four views of the duel, but unfortunately, I disagree with all of them and saw the events a different way with different reads of Snape and Dumbledore. Yes, it is similar to MD, but not exclusive. Let me explain. > * All-Knowing Snape, Omniscient Dumbledore: > > Snape knew exactly what he was doing, Dumbledore knew exactly how he > was going to do it... > > Darrin's view: NO! I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient > Dumbledore. I think you hate this so much because it means that every step Snape and Dumbledore make are so ingenious and so lucky it is beyond belief even for fiction. I think many confuse MD!Dumbledore and MD!Snape with this view. Really, the way JKR has written her books so far, she did not write a situation or a character this perfect, and if it turns out that Snape and Dumbledore are, then the human feel of the books will be lost and true fairytale fantasy will take over. I think we all would be a bit disappointed then, but I am rambling a bit here...like normal. I do not like this viewpoint because an all-knowing Snape and Dumbledore is just that. All knowing. So why do it? What is to gain by showing the school Harry is a parseltongue? Seems a breech in security really. An all-knowing Snape and Dumbledore have no reason to call the club or even be there. They already know. > * Mean and Knowledgable Snape, Mostly Omniscient Dumbledore: > > Snape was ordered to make Harry reveal his Parselmouth, but > Dumbledore is torked that Snape made Harry a pariah in the process. > The shrewd and calculating look is because Snape makes Harry look > like an evil git. > > Darrin's view: Not as bad, but hopefully Snape got his knuckles > rapped for this one. Eh. The ordered part rather bothers me. I think it is that word. I do not see Dumbledore as per say ordering Snape around but rather discussing things with him, talking the options, then deciding what to do. But then again, if Snape did not want to do something (And really in this situation would Snape *not* want to do this to Harry?), Dumbledore would have to command him, but as I said in the parenthesis, I doubt Snape was not game for playing with Lockhart and having the chance to be a dueling stud. I see this viewpoint as the closest to mine, which I will explain later. > * Mean and Clueless Snape, Smart, But Not THAT Smart Dumbledore: > > Snape was just having a bit of fun with Potter, and was as shocked > as anyone else when Harry was a Parselmouth. The shrewd look is > because he realized that what Potter would be going through now was > 100 times worse than getting a minor fright from a snake. > Dumbledore, though suspecting Harry might be a Parselmouth, wasn't > sure until this moment. Didn't order anything. > > Darrin's view: The one I like the best. I like my Snape on a > need-to-know basis, not as ultra spymaster. I also like my Snape > hateful in a lot of ways, not some benevolent bat flapping around > with 18 motives for every action. Hm. That explained you loyalties to me quite well. I can't persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I? I guess, I do not like this viewpoint because I have problems seeing a Snape that protects Harry from falling off his broom, from being wrongly accused earlier by Filch, and who is worried sick that Harry was late for the train back to school to begin with, now has a calculated, sinister, and a bit of a sick lust for Harry to have as much fear and isolation as possible for a twelve year old. I just do not buy that Snape "I hate you because of your father" crap. I am sorry. There is more going on there than just I hated your father. He was good at Quidditch. He got all the girls. I could never wash my hair. I hate him. So, I hate you. Please. Snape is not that one dimensional, and really to date, we do not have a good motive for him to have that much hatred for Harry that he would find such twist glee in Harry's now extended fear beyond a silly snake. And clueless? Snape? Clueless? Come on Darrin. Snape and Dumbledore obviously talk....well Dumbledore and Hagrid obviously talk too, but I mean, Snape and Dumbledore can look at each other at the end of GoF, and with no words, they move "a plan" into action. They talk and talk often. They know calculated moves. The question here is whether this was one of them. But, I think we can rule out a clueless Snape. If anything, Dumbledore was not at the dueling club, so he had to hear about the events from someone dependable. Key word: dependable. Hm...Lockhart? No. Percy? Naw. Crabbe or Goyle? Ha! Only person that knew fully all that would probably be going on, of any importance, in that room would be Snape. > * Mean and Clueless Snape, Clueless Dumbledore: > > See above Snape, but add a Dumbledore just as surprised as anyone. > > Darrin's view: Probably not, but oh well. Ok. Clueless Dumbledore? *With* a clueless Snape? Oh how sad would *that* be? Seems good then that Dumbledore clued in enough to realize how Harry got that gift whether than do a Fudge and assume the worse. Seems glad that Snape did too. For after all, Snape never harasses Harry about his gift. How he shares this precious gift with Snape's old boss the Dark Lord. Yep, all he ever harasses Harry about is stupid and superficial. Or he eggs him on to loose his temper in the Shrieking Shack. :D Soooooo....my view of this scene? I see: A informed Snape there to protect Harry and watch the events *if* something happens. And *if* he has the opportunity to "help" an event to happen, then bully for their side. I mean: *Lockhart* is in charge of the whole silly event. Dumbledore is not that stupid. Moreover, it seems Snape is more than able to protect Harry and the school if need be. If anything, he could curse Lockhart or do that cool ropes from his hands he did in Shrieking Shack. The school body would like it, but that might be a deterrent, since Snape likes everyone not liking him. Now, Snape and Dumbledore do talk, so they might of discussed if Harry had that gift, since they also knew that Harry was no telling the truth as to why he was in the corridor Halloween night. But I also believe they knew it was a Basilisk but did not know how it was moving around. Which brings me to my view of Dumbledore here... -and- A Dumbledore with a hunch but is not sure. *If* Snape gets a chance, it would be nice to see what Harry would do, but Snape would have control of the situation at all time, so there is no real danger. They could test it, but it was not a necessity. After all, they could of conjure a snake any old time to see if Harry is a parseltongue. Walking down the hall, oh look a snake. Why Harry? Why are you doing that raspy sound with your throat? They did not need that public forum...or did they? Ok, I will stop. I just hated that you isolated the possibility that Snape has actually good intentions towards Harry to the first one. But then again, you like a mean, heartless Snape. See: I like a mean but acting Snape. You get the best of both worlds. Melody From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Wed May 14 03:04:00 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:04:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <3EC0618D.C2533884@colfax.com> References: <1DAD3742-84D9-11D7-8508-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> <3EC0618D.C2533884@colfax.com> Message-ID: <3EC1B220.4000500@Dionysia.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57818 Lissa B wrote: > Hi Dan. I've just got to ask you this.... > ...I guess what I'm trying to point out here is that JRK's use of time > travel in PoA almost mandates that the device play a crucial role in the > series. And I'm not arguing with that. I agree that, now that she has introduced it into her world, she will most likely use it again. I'm not sure that it will be "crucial", and I'd rather that it not, but it certainly could be. All I said was that I wish she had not even introduced time travel into the Potter universe. Not because I think she's a bad writer for doing so, and not because I think she did a bad job of it. But because I think it's too easy to let time travel get out of hand, and once it does, it can be a distraction for the reader because it just causes so many logistical problems that it can pull the reader out of the accepting attitude that one has to have when reading fantasy. If time travel is the whole point of a story (e.g., _The Time Machine_ , _Somewhere In Time_, _Back to the Future_) then that's fine. But even then, it always causes problems. Take _Somewhere In Time_ as an example (one of my favorite movies, BTW). She gives him a watch in his time. He then goes back in time and leaves the watch with her in her time, which she then gives back to him later in her life, starting the whole cycle over again. Which, of course, begs the question, where did the watch even come from? Luckily that doesn't get in the way of the story. Star Trek, on the other hand, has gone way over the edge with time travel, to the point that those episodes are just annoying to watch. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Trek fan, but all those time travel episodes are just rediculous. But, of course, the Trek writers have never really been bothered by gaping plot holes :o). So far I don't think JKR has caused a problem with it. The bits in GoF were pretty well done, and the fact that it /is/ after all a fantasy makes it easy to not be bothered by simple logistical problems. All I'm saying is that I hope JKR doesn't go so far with more time travelling that even the this-is-just-a-fantasy attitude isn't enough to keep it from bothering the reader. --Dan From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Wed May 14 03:27:10 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 03:27:10 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <00ab01c319b2$0bee3720$0ea2cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > But what if, say, the Dementor had performed the Dementor's Kiss on > Harry in the first timeline? Then Harry wouldn't have been able to > get to the time turner to go back in time. Which means the D's . > Kiss wasn't performed, or else he wouldn't have been able to change > it. Were there just always two timelines? No, that can't work. > Grr, I give up. My feeble minded brain has been around 7 year olds > too long. Hi Richelle, You are in no way feeble minded. The Scientific Community argues over paradoxes all the time. The truth is nobody knows, yet. Some of the last Physicists to ponder the consideration that you have just attempted came up with a thing called *Chaos Theory* to help explain that they simply couldn't explain. :P There is a theoretical answer to that question though. Through the curious, contemplation of a time paradox. The nature of time paradox is to defy the laws of possibility with out directly breaking them. My dictionary gives the meaning of "paradox" as being; an argument which through a valid process of deduction arrives at a self contradictory conclusion. So a time paradox is an argument of how the law of time continuity can be legally followed all the way to a destination that defies itself. It remains unexplained because it cannot be, but according to all known laws it already is. So what happens? Ok now I am back at the birthplace of Chaos so I'll move on to the subject for you. For Harrys case: Assuming the laws of time that we know and can prove scientifically. ie consecutive events following each other. We have a hypothetical universe of impossible events becoming probable when follow a timeline in a theoretical direction. The way to understand POA is to look at it not as two time lines but one. Harry's life. Consecutive events in Harry's life are looped in a circle creating a "paradox" *a scientific impossible* inside the loop. In the story, when Harry goes back to three hours before, the continuity of time dictates !THAT TRIP IS his timeline! not another created one but all one with it's self. ie The concurrent sequences of events that defines Harry's existence includes the loop. Everything, inside the loop of Harry's timeline, is possible within the confines of time, theoretically. It IS possible for these impossible things to happen. Because it is possible, we can create a concurrence of events like Harry saving himself with out breaking the law of time continuity. Draw yourself a diagram if it helps. Valky Wondering how so many of us fictionists got our heads around advanced physics theorem to come up with these crazy suppositions. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Wed May 14 03:46:28 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (Monita) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 03:46:28 -0000 Subject: Big Public Apology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > > Later in her post Valky wrote: > I remember someone posting a possible torture for Lily, recently. > Re:5th person at Godrics Hollow > Imagine the life of Lily, widowed of James and Imperiused under > the care of Peter 'Wormtail' Pettigrew. *shudders* A fate worse > than death? Likely. > Linda wrote: > That post was mine. However, I never intended it to mean that > Pettigrew would "keep' Lily. I was thinking more along the lines > of him making a request out of desperation that he knew LV would > never honor anyway. ( If anyone wants to see my original post it's > 57478.) > Valky (me): Sorry Linda, I deliberately put it in that context to illustrate my own point. But I misconstrued your meaning and forgot to mention that I had done so. Hope I didn't cause you much distress by having everyone think you would have poor Lily given to Wormtail. From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 14 03:49:52 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 03:49:52 -0000 Subject: The Dueling Club - an interpretaion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57822 Melody wrote (with quotes from me in the middle) > > > > Darrin's view: NO! I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient > > Dumbledore. > > > I think you hate this so much because it means that every step Snape > and Dumbledore make are so ingenious and so lucky it is beyond belief even for fiction. This is close. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their story and less Harry's story. I dislike MAGIC DISHWASHER because I think it makes Harry a chess pawn, which I rebel against. > > > * Mean and Knowledgable Snape, Mostly Omniscient Dumbledore: > > > > Snape was ordered to make Harry reveal his Parselmouth, but > > Dumbledore is torked that Snape made Harry a pariah in the process. > > The shrewd and calculating look is because Snape makes Harry look > > like an evil git. > > > > Darrin's view: Not as bad, but hopefully Snape got his knuckles > > rapped for this one. > > Eh. The ordered part rather bothers me. I think it is that word. Why? Snape is walking free at the pleasure of Dumbledore. Dumbledore personally vouched for Snape, overriding concerns of Moody (which we have in canon via his skeptical look when D-Dore was testifying for Snape) and most probably Crouch Sr. (not canon, but c'mon, that makes sense) Dumbledore does boss Snape around. "That will do, Severus," in PoA. "Severus, fetch me the strongest truth serum," in GoF. He overrode Snape on Lupin and has essentially let Snape know that Sirius' second chance is just as valid as his in GoF. They ARE NOT equals. Dumbledore is the Head Master. Snape is the Potions Master. Maybe Dumbledore allows dissent, but this isn't a committee he's running. Maybe D-Dore didn't "order" Snape in this instance, but if Snape isn't doing it on his own, he's doing it at Dumbledore's wishes, no matter how much sugar and pretty please D-Dore gives. > > > > * Mean and Clueless Snape, Smart, But Not THAT Smart Dumbledore: > > > > Snape was just having a bit of fun with Potter, and was as shocked > > as anyone else when Harry was a Parselmouth. The shrewd look is > > because he realized that what Potter would be going through now was > > 100 times worse than getting a minor fright from a snake. > > Dumbledore, though suspecting Harry might be a Parselmouth, wasn't > > sure until this moment. Didn't order anything. > > > > Darrin's view: The one I like the best. I like my Snape on a > > need-to-know basis, not as ultra spymaster. I also like my Snape > > hateful in a lot of ways, not some benevolent bat flapping around > > with 18 motives for every action. > > Hm. That explained you loyalties to me quite well. I can't persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I? Nope. Snape works for me as a miserable guy who's chosen the right side. > I guess, I do not like this viewpoint because I have problems seeing a Snape that protects Harry from falling off his broom, from being wrongly accused earlier by Filch, and who is worried sick that Harry was late for the train back to school to begin with, now has a > calculated, sinister, and a bit of a sick lust for Harry to have as > much fear and isolation as possible for a twelve year old. > Wellllll... Snape did protect Harry from falling off the broom, in order to be able to hate James in peace, according to D-Dore. And it's not like without Snape's word, Harry would be in Azkaban for petrifying Mrs. Norris. As for the "worried sick" thing. Where is that in canon? We don't know exactly why Snape was the one looking for Harry and Ron. We just know that he was. Maybe D-Dore, figuring Snape would be the teacher least missed at the feast, sent him to go look. You see, I keep seeing the bastard who let Hermione suffer in front of her peers, who tortures Neville apparently just because he can, and who is carrying a schoolboy grudge a generation later. > I just do not buy that Snape "I hate you because of your father" crap. I am sorry. There is more going on there than just I hated your father. He was good at Quidditch. He got all the girls. I could never wash my hair. I hate him. So, I hate you. Please. Snape is not that one dimensional, and really to date, we do not have a good motive for him to have that much hatred for Harry that he would find such twist glee in Harry's now extended fear beyond a silly snake. Snape has, in PoA, ripped James in front of Harry. Said it to his face. D-Dore, a pretty good judge of character, told Harry -- right after telling him he wouldn't lie to him -- that he believed Snape hated him in PS/SS. Snape slams James AGAIN in the Shrieking Shack, babbling about "thanking me on bended knee" when all he did was take away Harry's godfather. Maybe there is more to why Snape hates James, but I think it's safe to say he does, and transfers that to Harry. I just don't buy the Acting!Snape in PoA. The less hate you give Snape, the less complex he is, in my opinion. > And clueless? Snape? Clueless? Come on Darrin. Snape and > Dumbledore obviously talk....well Dumbledore and Hagrid obviously talk too, but I mean, Snape and Dumbledore can look at each other at the end of GoF, and with no words, they move "a plan" into action. A plan they surely have discussed often before. But that doesn't mean D-Dore let's Snape in on every little thing. "Clueless" also was just referring to Harry perhaps being a Parselmouth. He's obviously knowledgable about some things, but why does he need to know everything? Again, this isn't Snape's story. This is Harry's story. And if Snape has got one hand on the puppet rig and D-Dore the other hand, what fun would that be? > I see: > A informed Snape there to protect Harry and watch the events *if* > something happens. And *if* he has the opportunity to "help" an event to happen, then bully for their side. I mean: *Lockhart* is in charge of the whole silly event. Dumbledore is not that stupid. Moreover, it seems Snape is more than able to protect Harry and the school if need be. If anything, he could curse Lockhart or do that cool ropes from his hands he did in Shrieking Shack. The school body would like it, but that might be a deterrent, since Snape likes everyone not liking him. > It seems hard for you to accept that Snape could be just as much as tool -- and not a co-conspirator -- for Dumbledore as anyone else. Dumbledore, if he suspected the Parselmouth, could have just figured that it might come out at some point, and if it didn't, it wouldn't be the end of the world for Harry to never realize he had the snake- tongue gift. To speculate that D-Dore needed Harry to realize the gift is to speculate that D-Dore knew Harry would end up opening the Chamber of Secrets. I really don't know about that... too much OmniDumbledore to me. >See: I like a mean but acting Snape. You get the best of both worlds. I like a Snape dealing with his hate, not already surpressed it and just acting hateful. I want him to have been really angry in PoA, but acting in other places. I want him to know what he needs to know, just like Hagrid, McGonagall, Lupin and Sirius. I don't know how he got nominated as the right-hand guy and I don't think canon supports it -- or at least, doesn't support it any more than it supports any other view. Darrin From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed May 14 03:51:47 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:51:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape: ropes from his hands References: Message-ID: <003d01c319cc$25ad6810$10ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57823 I have seen a few people in a few unrelated posts talk about how Snape shot ropes out of his hands in the Shrieking Shack scene. I don't understand where this is coming from. Here is the scene according to my copy of PoA (US hardcover). p. 357: Snape pulls off the cloak and points his wand at Lupin. p. 358: Snape goes on for a bit, with other people trying to interject. Snape kees the wand "pointing directly at Lupin's chest." p. 359: They talk for a tiny bit more, then...BANG! Thin, snakelike cords burst from the end of Snape's wand and twisted themselves around Lupin's mouth, wrists, and ankles; he overbalanced and fell to the floor, unable to move. With a roar of rage, Black started toward Snape, but Snape pointed his wand straight between Black's eyes. Ok, at this point, we have had the wand pointed at Lupin, the rope come out of the wand to bind Lupin, and the wand pointed at Sirius. Moving onward. p. 360: After some talking...A few sparks shot out of the end of his wand, which was still pointed at Black's face. p. 360: "Come on, all of you," he said. He clicked his fingers, and the ends of the cords that bound Lupin flew to his hands. "I'll drag the werewolf." Up to this point, he had not been holding the end of the rope at all. He had his wand pointing at Sirius with one hand, the other hand empty. He then clicks his fingers to make the ends go to his spare hand. p. 362: Lupin was struggling against his bonds. Black bent down quickly and untied him. Lupin straightened up, rubbing his arms where the ropes had cut into them. The only bit of wandless magic I see Snape do here is summon the rope ends to his hands. I don't see this as anything more extravagant than anything else that has been done without a wand. Harry, an untrained wizard, could make his hair grow at will and apparate for short distances. Dumbledore can clear a room of its current furniture and summon sleeping bags for the entire school. I don't see anything that exciting about making rope ends jump from the floor up a short distance to an outstretched hand. I don't get the impression from the text that the rope originated from his hands or were controlled by them in particular. If this is wrong in some way, please correct me. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Wed May 14 03:54:18 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 03:54:18 -0000 Subject: Families in HP (WAS: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57824 bowlwoman: Although, we have to factor in that we're looking at the Hogwarts students through Harry's eyes and he doesn't know all the students in Hogwarts that well. Everyone there pretty much knows who he is (I mean c'mon..he's Harry Potter!), but that doesn't mean he knows them well enough to engage in a personal conversation about family members. He is, of course, in close contact with the Weasleys, and Pavarti is in his own house (not to mention her twin went to to the Yule Ball with Ron). We know Hermione is an only child (and we assume Neville is as well), but we haven't heard anything about Lavendar Brown, Dean Thomas or Seamus Finnigan. These would be the students with which Harry would have the most intimate contact, so the fact that we don't know about their familial status is intriguing indeed. Me (Bill): I think that even if students have siblings also at Hogwarts, Harry is unlikely to be aware of this unless he knows them fairly well, and Harry is not exactly the most gregarious person at Hogwarts. I would limit the sample to the Gryffindor students in his year, who would be the most likely people for Harry to know if they have siblings at Hogwarts. This givs us: Brown, Lavender Finnigan, Seamus Granger, Hermione Longbottom, Neville Patil, Parvati Potter, Harry Thomas, Dean Weasley, Ron Now, how many of these people are, given their parents, unlikely to have magical siblings? Hermione - Muggle-born Harry - orphan Dean - Muggle-born I am not including Neville in this last list, as he could, in theory, have siblings born no later than three(?) years after him. So, two out of five students, or 40 percent, are known to have at least one sibling at Hogwarts,. That sounds about right, compared to my high school. Bill From cantor at vgernet.net Wed May 14 04:04:18 2003 From: cantor at vgernet.net (cantoramy) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:04:18 -0000 Subject: The Evil that is Rita -and how about Crouch Senior? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > And, while I know I shouldn't say this... Oh hell, who cares. > > Hermione should've stepped on her. Screw the glass cage. > > Darrin > -- Feeling bloodthirsty today. Amen to that! cantoramy From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed May 14 04:34:05 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:34:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter should be stepped on/MIA (Re: The Evil that ... Message-ID: <2f.3972b549.2bf3213d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57826 In a message dated 5/13/2003 8:49:45 PM Central Standard Time, grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > Yes, I hope Hermione realizes that trapping her could cause some bad > repercussions and squishes her to the point she's stuck on her shoe I hope that Hermione rethinks that plan and contacts Dumbledore or McGonagall about it. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Wed May 14 04:38:02 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:38:02 -0000 Subject: Re. Adopted Harry is really.....TTTR/Killing past and future selves/AK In-Reply-To: <20030513171737.25687.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57827 Lissa had > written: > > "If you can find a way to make an HP=LV theory > workable *without* Harry > Potter being adopted > Mlle Bienvenu (Me): I am very intrigued by this whole 'without begining and without end concept. When I read the theory, I looked like this: O_o I hope JKR, does something along those lines with the plot, because I feel it would be nothing short of amazing. That being said, I do have some ideas (not criticisms exactly, but some things that I may be confused on). As I said, I simply love the whole immortality scheme that LV may have cooked up. But if he is to truly be without a beginning, wouldn't he have to have not been conceived yet? What that would suggest to me, is that he would have to be trying to kill his parents (hence Harry=TRSr?) , not only his parents, but specifically his parents before he was concieved. (The following ideas contradict this first idea. ^ Although they are about similar topics, they do not go together) Another idea that occured to me while looking at this incredibla theory is that everyone is assuming that Tom Riddle Jr came before Harry Potter ie Adopted!Harry. Harry does not have to be adopted if he, in fact is J&L's son. So where did Tom Riddle Jr come from? What if Harry (or someone else), sometime in the future, brought his infant self -back- in time who would eventually become the TMR we all love to hate. Another idea I had, building off of that idea (and I don't really believe this one, because I have absolutely no backing for it, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway) What if, Snape is future Harry? (The only little inkling of evidence I have is that Snape's hair is greasy, implying that perhaps his hair is untameable, like Harry's....what? Yes, it is flimsy evidence :P) That would explain why he seems to be trying to beat Harry's ego into the ground. So here's the scenario... Harry grows up some more, for some reason that I can't yet ponder (because I'm on one hour of sleep) he (or someone else) decides that baby!harry should be sent into the remote past (okay, I do have a theory of why that might be...since time can't be changed, TMR already existed to Harry, so someone thinks that the only way to destroy Tom is to send back the Famous Harry bleeding Potter to take care of it) , Harry comes back to the present, realizes he's made a horrible mistake and inadvertantly created Tom Riddle (so that would make Harry, interestingly enough both the father and the son..hmmmm), so he grows up into Snape!Harry who tries to beat his original self's (Harry Potter's) self esteem into the ground, because it may discourage him from making the mistake that created Tom Riddle. Okay, did that make any sense at all? Didn't think so... In the words of Chief Miles O'Brien, I hate temporal mechanics. The Avada Kedavra threads have reminded me of something that I wondered a long time ago (when I heard a theory about Harry having to kill himself to kill Voldemort) Can Avada Kedavra be used to commit suicide? If you can't commit suicide using AK, maybe that's why Harry survived his first encounter with LV. If Harry is LV, then it would be the same as suicide, wouldn't it? I know there's no canon evidence to say you CAN'T commit suicide using AK, but I thought I'd ask the question. Ok. Going to sleep now...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Mlle Bienvenu From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 14 05:34:26 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 05:34:26 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces In-Reply-To: <00ab01c319b2$0bee3720$0ea2cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > But what if, say, the Dementor had performed the Dementor's Kiss on Harry in > the first timeline? Then Harry wouldn't have been able to get to the time > turner to go back in time. Which means the D's Kiss wasn't performed, or > else he wouldn't have been able to change it. Were there just always two > timelines? No, that can't work. Grr, I give up. My feeble minded brain > has been around 7 year olds too long. > > Richelle Annemehr: It's not so hard, really. There was always only one timeline. It's just that, from 9:00 p.m. to midnight that day, there were two Harrys and two Hermiones running around. HH1 were with Ron and were experiencing the Shrieking Shack, etc., and have no knowledge of HH2. Then there's HH2 who are rescuing Buckbeak and Sirius and are aware of everything HH1 are doing because they remember it. So, there is only one timeline, and in it H2 rescued H1 with a perfect patronus. He is able to because he remembers when he was H1 and saw it, so he knew he could. The hardest part of all this is, how can H1 be rescued by H2 if he (H1) hadn't used the time turner yet? The answer is, "magic": the EFFECT (H2 is around from 9 to midnight) COMES BEFORE THE CAUSE (H1 uses the Time Turner with Hermione *at* midnight). If you think about it, this is the very *nature* of time travel to the past -- you arrive *before* you begin travelling. Thus, the effect (H2 is there to rescue H1 the one and only time the dementors attack) happens *because* H1 uses the Time Turner at midnight. To rephrase, at the time of the dementor attack, H1 has not yet used the Time Turner. HOWEVER, H2 has been around since 9:00 and is available to rescue H1 *because* H1 *will use* the TT at midnight (effect before cause, see?). This, at least, is the type of time-travel JKR is using; there are other types in other works of fiction. The best illustration of what JKR is thinking of, is the fact that HH1 and HH2 hear "each other" in the Entrance Hall just after 9:00: just before the Trio are about to cross the Hall in the Invisibility Cloak (on their way to visit Hagrid), they hear a last pair of running feet and a slamming door, which (we find out in a later chapter) is HH2 running to hide in the closet until the Trio go by. Later, from HH2's point of view, they are hiding in the closet and hear what sounds like three pairs of feet crossing the Hall, and Hermione2 realizes it's themselves in the Cloak. So, both pairs of H&H were always in that time, and hear each other. Only HH1 don't know anything about HH2 yet, and HH2 can remember everything that happened to HH1. Hmmm... hope that's halfway clear? Annemehr apologizing for not using chapter refs., but book is unavailable... From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Wed May 14 00:50:23 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:50:23 -0000 Subject: So long as we're talking about time travel... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57829 > > Awfully darn convenient it put them right next to the Entrance Hall > > though, dontcha think? > > > > Darrin > > bboy_mn: > > We know magic can be modified by intend, or, perhaps more correctly, > our observations of events in the story would seem to imply that, and > it is a popular theory. > > So I speculate that the magic of the Time Turner was modified by > Hermione intent. She knew that the place she needed to be if she was > going to effectively help, was the entrance hall. So she coupled the > changing in time of the Time Turner with her desire to be in another > more effective location. bowlwoman: I tend to agree with bboy_mn. Hermione knew she needed to be at the entrance hall for 2 reasons IMHO: 1) Madame Pomfrey would have freaked if HH showed up in the Infirmary at 9 PM out of thin air, not only because the students weren't to be seen, but because she has a tendency to go a bit overboard at times. She probably would have strapped them down to a bed thinking they needed some sort of tonic and the chance for them to help would be out the window. 2) I don't know how long it takes to get from the Infirmary to outside the front of the castle, but if they had to go a long way without being seen, it would be difficult to sneak around, in my opinion. bowlwoman From SaBoTaGe3p3 at hotmail.com Wed May 14 00:58:42 2003 From: SaBoTaGe3p3 at hotmail.com (sabotage3p3) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:58:42 -0000 Subject: St. Mungo's not safe? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57830 I was reading a Harry Potter book 1-4 analysis and because of it I realized that St. Mungo doesn't seem as safe as it looks. The first time I read the books (the Harry Potter books) I thought it's probably a safe place because it's a hospital and most people see them as a safe place in my opinion. In the books, it looks like that Lucius Malfoy has a lot of influence over the ministry. So that could mean he controls a lot of the ministry. He controlled the board of governors in Harry's second year, so this backs up that he probably has a lot of control over the ministry. The next thing that the analysis made me think over was that he does a lot of contributions to St. Mungos. At first I thought nothing of it. But I thought why would he contribute stuff if he is not getting anything in return. He seems a evil person and to me it looks like he would probably only do stuff for someone if they do stuff for him. But these things were minor things and it didnt seem a big thing to until in Chapter 27 Page 522 in Goblet of Fire, it says: "Harry scanned the story about Crouch. Phrases jumped out at him: hasn't been seen in public since November...house appears deserted...St. Mungo's Hosptital for Magical Maladies and Injuries decline comment...Ministry refuses to confrim rumors of critical illness." It says St. Mungo's decline comment. Why would they decline a comment? The only reason they may have declined a comment was if they were covering something up. If he was sick or anything was wrong with him, they could of at least said that, he had some kind of problem and will not be in work for a little while. They could of said decline comment to lead the people who are reading it that they have seen him. That probably couldn't happen because he was under the Imperius or something, and/or Voldemort had him... I can't exactly remember. Soo, to say the truth it looks like St. Mungo isn't safe but JK Rowling could of done that to lead us to believe that it isn't safe (you never know) and Lucius Malfoy contributed money so that his family and him could get special services. But if they are dark wizards running it, they could do anything. They could decline some wizard treatment or they could do the wrong thing to a good wizard. You never know! "sabotage3p3" From ajlboston at yahoo.com Wed May 14 04:11:49 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:11:49 -0000 Subject: Barnes & Noble Online HP course and HP guides Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57831 So I found out that this link for a free online course: http://educate.barnesandnobleuniversity.com/educate/bn/home/catalog/ov erview.jsp?productId=7940&userid=2UPN50Z1VG&nhid=bn which requires this book: Beacham's Sourcebook For Teaching Young Adult Fiction: Exploring Harry Potter by Elizabeth D. Schafer, Elizabeth D. Sullivan http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0933833571/qid=1052884918/sr=2- 3/ref=sr_2_3/104-3678683-5654324 which I didn't find at BNN, but found another: Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter by Galadriel Waters, Astre Mithrandir (Paperback) which is also listed on the first books links, along with: Harry Potter's World: Multidisciplinary Critical Perspectives by Elizabeth E. Heilman (Editor) (Hardcover) The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter: A Treasury of Myths, Legends, and Fascinating Facts by David Colbert (Paperback) The Hidden Key to Harry Potter: Understanding the Meaning, Genius, and Popularity of Joanne Rowling's Harry Potter Novels by John Granger (Paperback) The Sorcerer's Companion: A Guide to the Magical World of Harry Potter by Allan Zola Kronzek, Elizabeth Kronzek (Paperback). I didn't see a post about this when I searched, so excuse me if wrong. The store lights flashed to indicate closing before I got very far checking the one book they had. Are there any comments on these guides by people on this list? Thanks, A.J. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Wed May 14 04:57:29 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:57:29 -0000 Subject: Adopted!Harry is really... TTTR In-Reply-To: <000101c31957$00e59180$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "m.steinberger" wrote: > Lissa: For such a red > herring to be justifiable at *all* there would have to be some subtle > indication from the first book on that Harry is adopted. > > TAS: Most of my "clues" were from PS/SS and CoS, and I expect that JKR will increase the clues and develop the old ones as the series moves on, so that at the end, we'll all say, "I can't believe it - the clues were all there!" same as we did with Quirrel, the Diary, Scabbers, etc. It's a funny thing. I was trying to peruse _Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter_ by Galadriel Waters/ Astre Mithrandir in a bookstore a couple of hours ago to see if it was of use, and glanced at the GOF section where Mme Trewlawney says to Harry that he was born in midwinter, is she right? No, says Harry, I was born in July. Ha ha. Yes, when we first read it. But now after reading your theory last night, I wondered at the guide's note questioning that section (was Harry really born in July as he thinks?)... Look what you did! >:] "A.J." From shnorse at wat.midco.net Wed May 14 05:59:49 2003 From: shnorse at wat.midco.net (Sarah Watertiger) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:59:49 -0500 Subject: Re Spelling Paradoces wrong Message-ID: <01cd01c319de$17e19640$9e59dc18@midco.net> No: HPFGUIDX 57833 Paradox plural Paradoxes : A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking. Time trave involves Quantum physics Such as the fact the same matter may not ocupy the same space at the same time. Time is often portrayed as water a change has ripple effects will changes tear apart our path universe variables are cpmplex. Sarah Lady Watertiger shnorse at wat.midco.net From lissbell at colfax.com Wed May 14 06:18:56 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (Lissa B) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:18:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces References: <1DAD3742-84D9-11D7-8508-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> <3EC0618D.C2533884@colfax.com> <3EC1B220.4000500@Dionysia.org> Message-ID: <3EC1DFD0.1EF1B4EC@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57834 Dan Delaney wrote: > And I'm not arguing with that. I agree that, now that she has introduced > it into her world, she will most likely use it again. I'm not sure that > it will be "crucial", and I'd rather that it not, but it certainly could be. > > All I said was that I wish she had not even introduced time travel into > the Potter universe. Lissa replied: Dan, I am so sorry. I misunderstood your previous post and feel like a fool. When you said "I'm right there with ya" in that original reply, I assumed--for no very good reason--that you were referring to all of the ideas expressed in the preceding quoted paragraph. Forgive me, fellow Trek fan. I agree with everything you wrote. Hanging her head in shame, Lissa From lumos28 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 07:08:22 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (Anita Sathe) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: evil females/Rita Skeeter and where is James's family? Message-ID: <20030514070822.85210.qmail@web20511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57835 hi list, Ersatz Harry wrote: > > > (5) With the exception of Rita Skeeter, all of the significant malevolent (or malevolent-seeming) characters that I can think of are male. I offer up the categories and lists below, but cut me some slack on whether individual characters are truly good or bad. Good Females: Hermione, Minerva, Molly, Lily, Ginny (not quite major) Bad Females: Rita (Narcissa is certainly not yet a major character) Fairly Useless Females: Sibyll I would certainly love to hear comments about the distinct lack (so far) of nasty female characters. > > > How come you all forgot to put Petunia in the evil females list? Treating a child the way she did (and the child being our beloved Harry) I think she should top the list. I mean, what kind of woman starves, bullies, orders-about an 11 year old, never takes him to the zoo, amongst committing countless other atrocities I'm sure...Its quite heart breaking. Okay, she hated Lily but he's just a kid (who doesn't even know who he really is)...give him a break. I am really curious to know what Dumbledore wrote in the letter to the Dursleys. Apart from Petunia being bitter over Lily being the family favourite, maybe there was something else in the letter that causes the Dursleys to be so mean to Harry? I think mistreating a child is the worst kind of evil so she should be on the list. But maybe the Dursleys actually turn a new leaf sometime later. Thats no excuse to treat Harry the way they did but can't help wondering..they're the only family he has that we know of. Which brings me to another question that often strikes me: Where is James's family? I'm assuming he had no siblings because after the Potters died, maybe D-dore would have handed Harry over to James' family. Who were James parents? If we interpret Harry's drawing out Godric G's sword as having Gryffindor blood in him (As opposed to being a Gryffindor at heart) then the Gryffindor connection must come from James's side right? (As Lily's parents are muggles) Any thoughts, anyone?..oh and sorry if this has been discussed before, I'm quite new here. Darrin wrote: >Oh, I hate Rita too. In fact, I think I hate her more than I hate any >Slyth. >You see, I'm a newspaper reporter, and I absolutely despise Rita. She >is >everything that is hideous about our profession. And Rita Skeeter is of course horrible, the worst kind of journalist I can think of. I was thrilled when Hermione got her! If she'd have stepped on her...wow...thats murder.. I think Hermione should do something like expose all her lies, tell the truth behind her "quotes" and everything..And Rita gets arrested for libel..thrown in Azkaban..ooh.. I think I'm drifting. I know you can't really stop the papparazzi, so it's best to ignore them but this woman is capable of doing a lot of damage, right? Wonder what Rita is going to do when she gets out of captivity...it could get ugly. -Anita, like Andrea, waiting for the sorting hat's new tricks! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 14 08:06:21 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter should be stepped on/MIA (Re: The Evil that is Rita ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514080621.1738.qmail@web21203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57836 > Darrin wrote: > > And, while I know I shouldn't say this... Oh > hell, who cares. > > > > Hermione should've stepped on her. Screw the > glass cage. > > > > Darrin > > -- Feeling bloodthirsty today. Lynn: I've wondered why Hermione didn't turn Rita over to Dumbledore. If it's possible Rita did overhear what was going on, that's important information for him to have, unless Hermione knows she wasn't on the windowsill earlier. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From heidit at netbox.com Wed May 14 08:07:35 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Barnes & Noble Online HP course and HP guides In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514080735.16577.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57837 AJLBoston wrote: > So I found out that this link for a free online > course: > http://educate.barnesandnobleuniversity.com/educate/bn/home/catalog/ov > erview.jsp?productId=7940&userid=2UPN50Z1VG&nhid=bn > > which requires this book: Beacham's Sourcebook For > Teaching Young > Adult Fiction: Exploring Harry Potter > by Elizabeth D. Schafer, Elizabeth D. Sullivan > And asked about other books about HP, then inquired: > Are there any > comments on these > guides by people on this list? > Ah, the Schaffer book. (*and, as an aside, they're still teaching that class? Look at the first announcement of it, from 2 years ago, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/5947, and announcement of the second round of it here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12850*) I'm not sure the book's been updated since the summer of 2001, when it was first published, but it didn't initially have anything on GoF in it, because it was written to come out at about the same time. And well, it's a pretty mediocre book. My first review is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/1655 and my second review (of the book, not just the GoF analysis which was then available online) is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/1927. Also, you can read Penny Linsenmayer's review of it at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12725, Steve Vanderark's review at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12728 (that's Lexicon Steve, of the Much More Comprehensive Lexicon (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon) which is a more comprehensive guide to the Potterverse than the Schaffer book). A scattershot slew of comments are also available here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/messagesearch/5644?query=schafer Galadriel Waters is a semi-oldbie from alt.fan.harry-potter and you can read a large number of her posts there using this link: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=author:dragonpath%40netscape.net+ Now, a bit of Just IMHO: I don't understand why people buy the analysis-of-HP-books (in contrast to the literary theory-focused ones like The Ivory Tower & Harry Potter or Roger Highfield's wonderful book about science and magic) when there's fascinating discussion of the HP books here on HPfGU and elsewhere, like FictionAlley's message boards (http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums), and the Lexicon, and the HPfGU FAQs (http://www.hpfgu.org/faq) which provide a great cross section of information and the theories which have bubbled up on this list over the years. Why pay for someone to provide you with an analysis that you can get online, for free, in a participatory fashion? Answers to OTC, please. Anyhow, hope y'all had fun in this trip into Fandom History! It's a place of deep mysteries and mists of time... heidi From steinber at zahav.net.il Wed May 14 07:53:12 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:53:12 +0200 Subject: Stone Defenses Message-ID: <001a01c319ed$f5d311e0$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 57838 The odd thing about the Ph. Stone's defenses is not that they were too easy, but that solutions were deliberately provided. I'm referring to the brooms in the key room. Why leave brooms there? And the riddle in the potions room. Why leave any clues at all? Any normal person setting up the potions defense would have left the clue to the potions locked in a safe elsewhere in the castle. And if you imagine that Quirrel nabbed the potions riddle and then left it with the potions, that doesn't explain why there were three (or more) brooms in the key room. Had Quirrel brought a broom in and left it, there would be only one. I'm sure this was discussed years ago, but I just wanted to add this factor to the current thread on how much credit the trio get for breaking the defenses. For first years, they did very well, but the defenses were clearly set up to be broken. BTW, in the context of the first book, not the whole series, the defenses are fine. The whole book is a sweet jaunt into magic-land, and it doesn't ask to make much logical sense. But looking back from the much more serious vantage of book 4, the stone issue becomes very peculiar. The Admiring Skeptic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Wed May 14 10:32:49 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:32:49 +0100 Subject: Time Turner operation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030514111429.0096a7f0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 57839 Just time for one short post. More in other threads later this evening, with any luck (unless someone else beats me to making the points I'd want to make) :-) At 23:47 13/05/03 , Steve wrote: >We know magic can be modified by intend, or, perhaps more correctly, >our observations of events in the story would seem to imply that, and >it is a popular theory. > >So I speculate that the magic of the Time Turner was modified by >Hermione intent. She knew that the place she needed to be if she was >going to effectively help, was the entrance hall. So she coupled the >changing in time of the Time Turner with her desire to be in another >more effective location. Surely the most effective location at which to "drop" Harry & Hermione would have been the edge of the Forest? They have to negotiate leaving the school building and crossing the lawns hoping nobody's looking out of a window, and get to the other side of Hagrid's hut without being seen by themselves or Hagrid. Please note that it's *Hermione* who raises being seen in all of these circumstances as a potential problem. Hermione's *intent* was quite clearly and explicitly to get to the edge of the Forest, whilst she was clearly not surprised to have been "dropped" in the Entrance Hall, close to where her original self (with Harry and Ron) are leaving under cover of the Cloak. She gets her bearings of where and when they have been "dropped" extremely quickly. I would assume that her ease is based on the fact that she's been regularly using the Time Turner for the previous nine months. Harry's intent appears to be irrelevant as he is taken completely by surprise in all respects. I therefore submit that the only rational explanation without inducing or inferring facts not stated in canon is my "close enough" theory (thanks for the name, Darrin). :-) I suspect that the next thing you're going to say is that Harry's intent somehow "confuses" the Time Turner, by being "incompatible" with Hermione's, but that's just inferring *further* facts not stated in canon. The "close enough" theory is fully consistent with all known uses of the Time Turner and the application of Occam's Razor. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who has to rush off but will be back From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Wed May 14 10:11:16 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:11:16 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris is a Mudblood? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57840 Valky: "It just occurred to me while skimming through COS today that the Basilisk attacked a cat first. A mudblood cat? Nooooo, can't be. Suddenly, creedence has been granted to a rumour I have long ignored. Mrs Norris is a witch. A halfblood witch trapped in a cat." I suppose the attack on Mrs. Norris could be explained with "being in the wrong place at the wrong time" and therefore Mrs. Norris is only a victim of circumstances, similar to Nearly Headless Nick. Although we don't know if NHN was a Muggleborn, so that could be a reason as well (But somehow I tend to think that he wasn't because otherwise I wouldn't think that he would put so much emphasis on being part of the Headless Hunt.) Now, of course it could also be that Riddle sees Squibs just as a low-life like Muggle-borns and therefore was trying to hit Filch indirectly. Which brings the question to my head how he would have know that? Surely, Mrs. Norris wasn't around when he went to school? So, I'm going with the first choice that it really was more of an accident which had the fortunate side efect of scaring everybody out of their wits but also the (surely) unwanted one that it alarmed them and therefore made the teachers more careful; even if it didn't keep the other petrifications from happening. Sabrina From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 14 12:23:00 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:23:00 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57841 Bored with time travel for now, so I'm thinking of reasons why V-Mort targeted James, Lily and Harry in the first place? Idea 1: Just Good Business Maybe the Potters were becoming dangerous. We don't know if the wealth they left Harry is on par with the Malfoys, but it does appear to be quite a lot of money. Perhaps they were able to financally influence thing V-Mort wanted left alone. Yeah, I know, boring and not magical. Idea 2: Hatfield and McCoys Ok, we know that Riddle is the Heir of Slytherin. Speculation has been the Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. Riddle, figuring out that the Heir of Gryffindor would probably make trouble, he just goes and tries to off them. Why kill James and Lily then? Could be he didn't know which one of them was actually the heir or could have been just good form to kill the entire family. Or, figuring that James and Lily had already produced one heir, he offed them before they could make another. Idea 3: For the love of a good Snape My distaste for this one has nothing to do with my general skepticism of Snape as the great power behind everything. I've seen the theory that V-Mort went to kill James and Harry, freeing up Lily for his faithful and trusty DE, Snape. The key bit of evidence behind this and other "Why spare Lily?" theories is that V-Mort tries to get Lily to stand aside and later tells Harry, "your mother needn't have died." Second part first. Why in the world do we trust anything V-Mort says? And I've never been convinced he meant to spare Lily. Had he really wanted to, it seems he could have. We're talking about the brightest student ever at Hogwarts and he can't move a woman away from a baby without killing her? The "stand aside girl" bit, in my view, could have been just V-Mort wanting to kill the baby first. Idea 4: Granddaddy dearest (OR -- the Star Wars theory) V-Mort is related to the Potters, and wants to get rid of any troublesome heirs. He might be related on Lily's side -- the sparing Lily thing again. There you go. Anyone else? Darrin -- Since GulPlum tells me I can't go back and change the discussion on Time Travel, I'm going to just do something else. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed May 14 13:32:06 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:32:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why the Potters? Message-ID: <11f.21ab477e.2bf39f56@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57842 In a message dated 5/14/2003 7:25:18 AM Central Standard Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > And I've never been convinced he meant to spare Lily. Had he really > wanted to, it seems he could have. We're talking about the brightest > student ever at Hogwarts and he can't move a woman away from a baby > without killing her? > > The "stand aside girl" bit, in my view, could have been just V-Mort > wanting to kill the baby first. > Have you ever tried to move a mother protecting her child? You'd have to kill me first. And if the Heir of Gryffindor theory does play out then James and Harry would both be descendents and thus both Heirs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed May 14 13:51:57 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:51:57 -0000 Subject: Families in HP (WAS: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > So, two out of five students, or 40 percent, are known to have at > least one sibling at Hogwarts,. That sounds about right, compared to > my high school. Since you say "high school", I assume you mean a 4-year high school in the US. But Hogwarts is a 7-year school, which means that the chances of having a sibling in school at the same time is quite a bit greater. Of course, when we're looking at a small number of students, it is entirely possible that all or none of them have siblings; I was originally commenting on the lack of siblings in general in the books. Ersatz Harry, who is tempted to go through his high school yearbook and count the fraction of his classmates who had siblings in school at the same time From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Wed May 14 14:38:38 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:38:38 -0000 Subject: Snape: ropes from his hands In-Reply-To: <003d01c319cc$25ad6810$10ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: < Harry, an untrained wizard, could make his hair grow at will and apparate for short distances.> Hey Kelly, Nice topic for a new discussion. You're absolutely right before the age of 11 Harry may have apparated to the top of a building. The canon is not 100% supportive though; "But all he tried to do was jump behind the big bins outside the kitchen doors. Harry supposed that the wind must have caught him in mid-jump." As you can see there is reference to jumping which indicates a possibility of flight, however the preceding passage contains; "... when, as much to Harry's surprise as anyone else's, there he was sitting on the chimney." Which supports a theory that he did not recall an actual experience of getting from "mid-flight" from his jump to the top of the chimney. So, I put it to all. Which magic do you suppose he performed with such relative ease? Unassisted Flight or Apparating? Valky From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed May 14 15:04:47 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:04:47 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > Idea 2: Hatfield and McCoys > > Ok, we know that Riddle is the Heir of Slytherin. Speculation has > been the Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. Riddle, figuring out that > the Heir of Gryffindor would probably make trouble, he just goes and > tries to off them. Why kill James and Lily then? Could be he didn't > know which one of them was actually the heir or could have been just > good form to kill the entire family. I think we need to be careful to distinguish between "heir" and "descendant", and Darrin appears to have been careful about this here. Certainly for most of English royal history, primogeniture made the heir the oldest son, but there were plenty of exceptions along the way when there were no sons, when a son was for some reason incapable of governing, etc. But at any given moment, a ruler had at most one heir. Of course, that heir might have been dispatched by some other contender for the throne, which leads to the occasional discontinuity in succession. But putting those interruptions aside, the string of heirs from, say, William the Conqueror to Elizabeth II contains a very small number of people. The descendants of William the Conqueror, on the other hand, could certainly run into the millions today, and it would be pretty much impossible to create a situation where there was a "last descendant" of William. Now it's not clear what you get for being the "heir of Gryffindor" (or, perhaps more accurately, the next heir in the string) -- maybe you get the sword and all the every flavor beans you can eat -- but let's assume that being the equivalent of the royal heir is of some significance, and let's also assume that James qualified for the position. Then if primogeniture applied, Harry would of course be next in line. If Voldemort wanted to usurp the royal position, then he would have to eliminate Harry as well, but he would not have needed to kill Lily. And usurpation is probably what we're talking about; I note that Voldemort's wizard ancestry is through his mother while Harry's is through his father, and a male ancestral line would probably be preferred to a female (though there may have been some female steps along the way since Harry's last name is not Gryffindor). So I'm starting to wonder if Harry is a kind of hidden king, in many ways similar to Aragorn in Lord of the Rings (who was also an only child, IIRC, and who had both elven and human ancestry). In LOTR, the kingship had seemingly disappeared for generations, but there were certain people who knew the true story and were merely waiting for the right time to reveal the true king. The story of King Arthur goes along a similar line, but only for one generation. Perhaps the subject of wizarding's royal history will be covered by Binns this year. Perhaps it will turn out that Gryffindor and Slytherin were themselves cousins, and their heirship lines will eventually merge and thereby end all the disputes (this might require Harry's marrying Voldemort's still-undisclosed daughter). Perhaps this will all be one big War of the Roses, though it's not quite clear who represents Lancaster and who represents York. Ersatz Harry, who thinks this sort of historical resolution would be much more satisfying than all this other BALDERDASH From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 15:05:54 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:05:54 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra In-Reply-To: <012a01c319c4$3cb846e0$814053d1@SaalsD> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57846 Grace wrote: > You would think after getting his body blasted away by trying the AK curse, > and spending 14 years trying to get it back, he'd remember it didn't work > the last time. Could LV have been so stupid as to think it would work this > time? This time, in the graveyard, he's put protection on himself - but he > didn't remove the protection from Harry. > > I do think that LV got more of Wormtail's blood in him from the hand that he > got from a vial of blood out of Harry. Would he have considered that? If > he took the time to figure out this recipe for getting a body back, knowing > that immortality is going to have to wait just a bit, and he took the time > to figure out that Harry is the one he wants as part of his recipe, then > you'd think he'd also have put more thought into who the willing servant > would have been. Why Wormtail? Why not Crouch Jr. who was more than > willing to give everything for him. Wormtail's motivations are centered > around his own self preservation - but Crouch Jr. has the idealist's > willingness, and I would think that would have made his recipe a more > powerful one. Crouch says it would take a very powerful wizard to fool the > GoF, meaning himself. Wormtail is described by the teachers and his former > friends as being weak. I think in the next book we find out the weakness in > LV's recipe. I believe Voldemort is completely stupid. He's planning this "I'm Going To Kill Harry Once and For All" plan and not thinking fulling about the consequences and side effects. Voldemort has become maniacal in his quest, he's not focusing at all. Isn't this the case for all Evil characters? They focus so much on one thing that they forget about everything else. Do you guys think that maybe the DE's will turn against Voldemort because all he cares about is killing Harry? Wasn't his main concern at some point taking over the WW, killing Mudbloods; Mudblood sympathizers; and anti-Voldemortists? Greicy, Killing Harry = good band name! Darrin you have made me into a band name searching freak! From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Wed May 14 13:26:15 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:26:15 -0000 Subject: An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57847 Ersatz Harry wrote: >(1) This whole theory of Harry as Voldemort strikes me as, well, nuts. > Not only do we have the various time travel problems and factual >contradictions (is H/LV a Gryff or a Slyth?), We know from the books that Harry could have been a Slytherin, why couldn't Tom Riddle have been a Gryffindor? Perhaps the Sorting Hat gave him the same choice as Harry and he decided for Slytherin either a) because he didn't know about the stigma that comes with it (being from a Muggle orphanage he would be similarly clueless as Harry) or b) he wanted to be a Slytherin because he has heard about it (perhaps from students on the train) and thought that it would be better for him or c) he was indifferent and only choose Slytherin because he liked the name better or whatever other superficial reason you can come up with. >but I think we'd be hard >pressed to find any good in LV, though we can certainly find some >faults in Harry. I agree that it would probably be hard to find any good in LV but the eleven-year old Tom Riddle *wasn't* Voldemort and that was when he perhaps made the choice about being either Gryffindor or Slytherin. After he became a Slytherin his anger at the world as being stigmatized as bad could have added to his decend towards evilness. I don't think that even if Harry is Voldemort or Voldemort Harry they would have had to follow the same path. As Dumbledore always says: Your choices are what make you and while Harry chose Gryffindor, Tom perhaps chose Slytherin and it only snowballed from there. However, I'm not saying that all Slytherins have to be evil, but that in this certain person (Tom) the prejudices, crappy childhood, etc. were part of the reason he became evil. I don't think that the kid Tom Riddle was evil but that he developed to that during his school time. >(5) With the exception of Rita Skeeter, all of the significant >malevolent (or malevolent-seeming) characters that I can think of are >male. Well, for one this could be because most of the charcaters we know or that have any importance are male. I don't know the exact ratio but I think you'd hard pressed if you try to find more than five important females in the books so far. Naturally that would be true for the evil as well as the good side. On the other hand, being evil is (from your list) closely associated with being a Death Eater or supporting Voldemort's ideas and somehow I just can't see Voldemort as seeing women as equals. The only female Death Eater that we know of is the woman in the pensieve (if she is Mrs. Lestrange), otherwise we have Mrs. Lestrange as another one. That would eliminate a lot of women from being "evil". Sabrina From pstaw57550 at aol.com Wed May 14 14:49:10 2003 From: pstaw57550 at aol.com (Peter) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:49:10 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57848 > Bored with time travel for now, so I'm thinking of reasons why V- Mort > targeted James, Lily and Harry in the first place? > We know that James already had money but have we really been clear on what He or Lilly were doing career wise? Weren't they part of the "old-crowd" and if so, weren't they working to defeat V? (In an Auror like capacity?) Couldn't that be the reason that they were targetted? From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 15:37:42 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Evil that is Rita -and how about Crouch Senior? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514153742.4073.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57849 Becky Walkden wrote: > > >>Rita is totally amoral. > The fact that her lies could cause personal agony and > humiliation to somebody never occures to her > But it's not agony and humiliation that makes her reprehensible. The lies about what Harry and Hermione are to each other could result in someone, most likely Hermione, being placed in grave peril, and possibly also Harry and even Ron, if they both try to help her. The earlier article referred to by Dumbledore in which he is called an 'obsolete dingbat' doesn't seem to embarrass him in the least, but it could undermine confidence in him and his administration at the school, which could lead to his removal and the endangerment of the school. What she does has ramifications far beyond embarrassing people, and she is remorseless about the damage she causes. Thanks to her, a mob of angry villagers could have come to the castle asking for Hagrid's blood--and they might yet. The article about Harry having seizures could have similar repercussions. Even if she doesn't write again, the damage is done. According to her, Harry's a dangerous madman. Why should anyone believe him when he says that Voldemort is back? Her actions are malicious and dangerous. People have been and will continue to be hurt because of what she has already done. I think we haven't seen the end of the ripples emanating from Rita's articles. Becky Walkden wrote: > By the by: I would classify Crouch Senior as being basically an > evil person inhis extreme cruelty even though he was an aurer > and worked for the good guys!<< "pippin_999" wrote: > I don't see that Crouch Sr. showed any rejoicing over the agony > and humiliation of the people he sent to Azkaban. And isn't > Voldemort just as cruel and unjust when he kills Cedric without > bothering to torture him first as he is when he tries to kill > Harry? In the end, Crouch was trying to do a difficult job at a terrifically difficult time and his motive was to protect people. To a certain extent I think he was also trying to protect his career, and by putting Sirius away without a trial he may also have been pandering a bit to people who wanted the dirty traitor put away, not offered a nice fair trial where he could try to justify what he'd done or claim he was innocent. However, it's also pretty clear that he thinks that he's protecting other people still when he does things to protect his own career. He probably thinks he's the last best hope of the wizarding world, and if he lost his post, it would all go to hell and the DEs would take over. We have no way of knowing whether he was right--he might very well have been. And one must remember that, when all was said and done, he had compassion for both his wife and son and engineered the switch that allowed his son to leave prison. While the compassion for his wife was not out of place, in retrospect we know that his compassion for his son WAS misplaced. In the end, it was not Crouch's cruelty but his capacity to risk his job for his family members that led to his son being able to assist Voldemort in coming back. It was good intentions that led to the tragedy; if Crouch had remained implacable and unmoved in the face of his wife's sorrow and his son's possible innocence, he could have been accused of behaving like a cruel martinet--but one who wasn't in danger of unwittingly loosing a dangerous criminal on the world. Perhaps Crouch, Sr. actually has more in common with Harry than we'd like to admit. --Barb ME: Don't forget the totally cold and cruel way he destroyed the life of his house-elf Winky who was quilty of absolutely nothing except being in a situation beyond her ability to control (thanks to Crouch). It wasn't just his actions but that he had absolutely no emotional sympathy or empathy at all for Winky who had served him faithfully so long. Unlike somebody like Percy who agreed with his actions, he KNEW he was being unjust because he knew the real situation. It is that coldness and cruelty about Crouch that makes me think he was personally quite evil in nature. Also, concerning his wife and son, please note that it was indicated that he really never gave his son any love at all and that is as large a component in what turned him into a DE as anything. It was only for his wife, who was mentioned someplace (where?) as being the only person he ever loved that brought him to rescuing his son. It wasn't for Junior's sake at all really. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 14:59:16 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:59:16 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter should be stepped on/MIA (Re: The Evil that is Rita ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57850 Darrin Wrote: > Worry? Her editors are probably wondering where her damn story on the > Triwizard Tournament is! Just a small story -- a brief in the lexicon of > newspapers -- ran about it. First tournament in a bajillion years and a brief? > Uh-uh, not happening. > > We don't know if the Prophet has any competition in the form of a news > program on the Wireless, or if there is another paper out there, but the death > of Diggory was just announced to 300-1,000 kids, many with parents in the > wizard world. > > Diggory's death has to have gotten to a reporter by now. > > No, her editors are wondering where she is, why she hasn't checked in, and > whether they can actually watch her burn when they fire her for being gone so > long. I think there has to be another newspaper and magazine besides The Daily Prophet and Witch Weekly, there has to be some kind of competition in the Reporting Industry, if not why would Rita be so greedy. Unless she's trying to make herself the best darn reporter at the Daily Prophet. If they do fire her, man am I gonna be scared for Hermione! Not only is Rita ticked off that she has captured her; found out her secret; and let her miss her chance at writing the BEST story of the century: Voldemort's Return and Cedric's Death, but she cost her her job. Could Rita go as far as reporting that Hermione "kidnapped" her and try to send her to Azkaban? Uh I'm liking this idea, even if Hermione is my favorite character! ;) I can see it in the front pages: RITA SKEETER KIDNAPPED! By Harry Potter's Girlfriend! Harry Potter, Mudblood girlfriend, Hermione Granger, kidnapped our star reporter to ensure that word wouldn't get out that Harry was involved in the death of Cedric Diggory... Greicy who thinks, Toasting Cedric Diggory is a good band name =) From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 15:57:16 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514155716.55006.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57851 darrin_burnett wrote: Bored with time travel for now, so I'm thinking of reasons why V-Mort targeted James, Lily and Harry in the first place? Me: Actually, I think it's because Harry is the only real threat to Voldemort in existance and he needed to kill him off. This is sort of the Hatfield-McCoy line you mentioned but it is more than a freud. I think killing Harry is absolutely necessary for Voldemort. Was killing James Potter also necessary? I know killing Lilly wasn't. But remember what everybody keeps saying about Harry. "You look extrodinarily like your father. Except you have your mother's eyes." (Dumbledore in PoA) This is extremely important although it's actual significace has not been revealed to us and won't be until book 7 I'm sure. But I don't think James Potter was the main goal, although he was an enemy and somebody Voldemort would go after anyways in his war to take absolute control. But I think the MAIN purpose for the attack was all about Harry all along. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 14 15:28:19 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:28:19 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: <11f.21ab477e.2bf39f56@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/14/2003 7:25:18 AM Central Standard Time, > bard7696 at a... writes: > > > And I've never been convinced he meant to spare Lily. Had he really > > wanted to, it seems he could have. We're talking about the brightest > > student ever at Hogwarts and he can't move a woman away from a baby > > without killing her? > > > > The "stand aside girl" bit, in my view, could have been just V-Mort > > wanting to kill the baby first. > > > Mel wrote: > Have you ever tried to move a mother protecting her child? You'd have to > kill me first. Oh, completely understood, but then again, we're talking about a guy who has access to Criacticus curses -- if she's seized up like a dying cockroach, she can't do much -- and the Imperio spell -- GET AWAY, WOMAN! Or just use a Banishing spell to send her flying into the wall. It's magic, remember. But, the best fix I've heard to this concern of mine is that she was out of the way and then jumped into the path of the blast. > And if the Heir of Gryffindor theory does play out then James and Harry would > both be descendents and thus both Heirs > What Ersatz said. I think "Heir" is in the sense of "chosen one" rather than in actual descendant. Riddle was Salazar's chosen one. Is Harry Godric's? Darrin From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 14 16:28:29 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514162829.2708.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57853 --- darrin wrote: > Idea 1: Just Good Business > > Maybe the Potters were becoming dangerous. Lynn: Let's not forget that Malfoy made a comment in CoS (p. 248, UK) that the Potters were meddlesome fools. This may explain why James and Lily would be killed but not why Harry would be killed. darrin wrote: > Idea 2: Hatfield and McCoys > > Ok, we know that Riddle is the Heir of > Slytherin. Speculation has > been the Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. > > Or, figuring that James and Lily had already > produced one heir, he > offed them before they could make another. Lynn: If Voldemort thought that these Potters were the end of the Gryffindor line through James, it would make sense that he killed both James and Harry for the vary reason you gave. If the line went through James, killing Harry would accomplish nothing as James could always have another child. darrin wrote: > Idea 3: For the love of a good Snape > The "stand aside girl" bit, in my view, could > have been just V-Mort > wanting to kill the baby first. Lynn: I agree with another poster. You couldn't just move me aside when I know you're after my child. Voldemort, however, doesn't understand that kind of love and so he perhaps thought just telling Lily to move so she could live would be enough. I tell you, if I was Lily and I had my wand with me, I'd have AK'd Voldemort in a heartbeat. darrin wrote: > Idea 4: Granddaddy dearest (OR -- the Star Wars > theory) > > V-Mort is related to the Potters, and wants to > get rid of any > troublesome heirs. Lynn: I don't know, JKR said in an interview this wasn't Star Wars. LOL Of course, I think that had something to do with Obi Wan What's-His-Face (never saw the movies so I really don't know the names very well). Let's try a couple other theories: Idea 5: The Prediction Theory Trelawney makes her first real prediction that the son of James Potter will bring the downfall of Voldemort. Voldemort decides to get Harry before Harry gets him. Voldemort hadn't intended to kill James but does because James battled him. Idea 6: Mixed-Up Theory Voldemort finds out that Harry is the true heir of Gryffindor as Voldemort is the true heir of Slytherin. Trelawney predicts that the heirs will battle each other and that the Gryffindor heir will win. Voldemort decides to off Harry while he's a baby and therefore can't do battle and therefore, Voldemort will win. James Potter has been a general pain in the you-know-what to Voldemort anyway, so Voldemort decides to get rid of him figuring without him Lily will stop being a pain since she's just a female anyway. Lynn (who'd like to do a bit of time-travelling herself just so she could go back in time with the winning lottery numbers) ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From koticzka at wp.pl Wed May 14 12:05:55 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (koticzka) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:05:55 -0000 Subject: We live stereotypes - awarding the bravery???!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57854 Answering some messages I shorten them to much - sorry if I made my commenst not clear enough. Some answers for darrin_burnett first: I still think Dumbledore used "an eye for an eye" method rewarding Gryffs' Trio. As you said, darrin: "Because what I see is Dumbledore correcting an injustice and recognizing that some points are worth more than others" - yes, but still Headmaster does not follow the rules. It is not cristal. But. Some people are trying to enter new moral or ethic rule: "If you are right, no matter what the other rules are". Yes, most of rules are established to be broken, one can say. But. Still "BUT" - when you break the rule because you need it (steal some food to survive, kill in selfdefence) - that might be eventually be forgiven. But for pleasure? For fun? For reward? That is not what I could call "higher priority". Sorry, The Cup, even the biggest and the most wanted one is not worth for me to give a sample like Albus had. I cannot agree. You cannot reward someone breaking those rules I mention all the time and - moreover - to hurt someone else. Be like a Slyth for a while. You are not lucky to get into trouble like Harry and his crowd. You work hard, sometimes even honestly ;) to make your infamous House win against everybody, because you were sorted into it - and suddenly an old freaky wizard is rewarding Harry for something he did (Beg your pardon - what in fact is the reason, what did he do? You were not noticed learning to your damn potion exams to get as many points as possible - sometimes Slyths might do things like this) - Harry broke rules. But he gets points. And his three friends too! You do not need to be Slyth and lose The Cup to feel something unfair in the air. Try imagine Raveclaw and Hufflepuff, too. Yes, yes, I know it was almost public news, what Harry actually did. And I do not deny them all their bravery and sacrificies. However there are different ways some School Rewards (do not know English name of it). I appreciate all action. ***** Perhaps I could appreciate it more if I could see that there are still people who do things right whether they are rewarded or not (I am still contious they did not expect anything! But wouldn't children reading Harry either???...) ***** Like Snape - sacrifying the Quiddich match. Quietly. No chance for even "thank you". Life debt? OK, but would you not say thank you afterwards? If you only knew. Nobody knew, neither will they probably (except of Harry and Quirrel - by the way should not Voldemort know more about Snape's actions than, being so close? Or did he not hear having his ears protected with too much textile??? - I am going to write it in a separate note, please do not comment yet ;) ). My note that Harry had been suggested to become Slyth by Sorting Hat and your answer: "And he said, "HELL NO! I WON'T GO!" Harry made his choice and lo and behold, he found himself not in the house founded by a genocidal madman" - you are right. The point is - you can even be noble, it is not forbidden in Slytherin... as Snape was - paying his life-debts and protecting Harry. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From jodel at aol.com Wed May 14 16:50:30 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:50:30 EDT Subject: Can't Count? Message-ID: <42.3875d637.2bf3cdd6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57855 Ersatz Harry grumbles: >>The earliest bad one I can think of comes early in the series, right at the end of the sorting ceremony in PS/SS (p. 122 in my US edition). Harry has already been sorted, and the text shortly after states: "And now there were only three people left to be sorted." The names of Thomas, Dean and Turpin, Lisa are mentioned, "then it was Ron's turn". Sounds like three to me, but the next paragraph refers to one more sortee: Zabini, Blaise. << This one actually turns out to have been an editing error in the American edition. In the original UK edition Dean Thomas is not mentioned or described. The error was in inserting his name and description after the "only three more" statement rather than ahead of it. But, yeah, there are so many of these rather sloppy time/date errors that you wonder what the hell is going on. And the *earliest* is in the first chapter of the first book, which is clearly stated to open on a TUESDAY "early" in November (from other internal evidence this has to be November first). A few paragraphs later there is a radio anouncer fatuously commenting on Daedelus Diggle's fireworks with the statement that "Bonfire night is next week, folks". Well so far as I know (not being a Brit) bonfire night is Nov 5. The Saturday of the *same* week. Now, if he had said next weekEND, it would make sense. But it doesn't as it stands. And, as far as that goes, if Rowling DID intend this open in 1981, November 1 was not ON a tuesday in 1981. And the list just goes on and on. And her copy editors are equally at fault, since they ought to be paying attention to this sort of thing. What else are copy editors for? -JOdel, grousing in sympathy From flenser at hotmail.com Wed May 14 16:22:42 2003 From: flenser at hotmail.com (fauxwen) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:22:42 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Peter" wrote: > > Bored with time travel for now, so I'm thinking of reasons why V- > Mort > > targeted James, Lily and Harry in the first place? > > > > We know that James already had money but have we really been clear on > what He or Lilly were doing career wise? Weren't they part of > the "old-crowd" and if so, weren't they working to defeat V? (In an > Auror like capacity?) Couldn't that be the reason that they were > targetted? The Potters were at special risk, though, beyond the normal danger that Aurors would be in---they were forced to go into hiding under the cover of the Fidelius Charm. Harry had to be protected, too, which makes me think that he was a target for LV as well. I think that so far, the evidence points toward a Gryffindor- Slytherin blood feud. "flenser" From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 14 18:22:47 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:22:47 -0000 Subject: We live stereotypes - awarding the bravery???!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57857 Koticzka wrote: > Some answers for darrin_burnett first: > > Some people are trying to enter new moral or ethic rule: "If > you are right, no matter what the other rules are". Yes, most of rules are established to be broken, one can say. But. Still "BUT" - when you break the rule because you need it (steal some food to survive, kill > in selfdefence) - that might be eventually be forgiven. But for > pleasure? For fun? For reward? That is not what I could call "higher priority". But Harry, Ron and Hermione and Neville didn't break the rules in going after the Stone for pleasure, fun, or reward. In fact, Harry specifically dismisses the entire idea of losing house points when he says, paraphrasing, "Don't you get it? If Voldemort gets the stone, there won't BE a House Cup." He's completely reprioritized his life. Instead of worrying about points, he's trying to do what he thinks is right. And, Neville, though he IS worried about points, is trying to do the right thing too. So, to suggest they got the points for rule-breaking in the name of fun is to grossly mischaracterize the issue. >Be like a Slyth for a while. You are not lucky to get into trouble like Harry and his crowd. You work hard, sometimes even honestly ;) to make your infamous House win against everybody, because you were sorted into it Again, without Draco's getting Harry, Neville and Hermione in trouble, the points would have been much, much closer. And further say there is no Stone to mess with (and earn points from). The standings would have been Slyth just slightly ahead. BUT... Harry would have played Quidditch against Ravenclaw, and chances are, they wouldn't have lost so badly. Slytherin was ahead on the strength of trickery. Sure, they earned points through good marks, but so did Gryffindor. Without Draco's stunt, it's nearly even. - and suddenly an old freaky wizard is rewarding Harry for > something he did (Beg your pardon - what in fact is the reason, what did he do?) I don't believe I'm still having this debate. What did he do? Oh... beat Flitwick's flying charm, took on the Dark Lord, who was inhabiting the body of the DADA teacher, figured out Dumbledore's puzzle and lived to tell the tale. Showed bravery and self-sacrifice. Nothing much. Please, stop trying to play it that Harry -- and the others -- did nothing down beneath the school. Argue if you will that Harry's bravery, Hermione's cleverness and Ron's self-sacrifice are outweighed by the fact that they were out of their beds, but PLEASE stop treating their actions as nothing. > You do not need to be Slyth and lose The Cup to feel something > unfair in the air. Try imagine Raveclaw and Hufflepuff, too. > Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs were cheering the Gryffindor victory -- and the Slytherin loss. They seem OK with it. Darrin From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed May 14 18:33:52 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:33:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Snape and Harry with a side of MD (WAS:The Dueling Club - an interpr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57858 darrin burnett wrote: > I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient > Dumbledore. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more > Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their > story and less Harry's story. I want to point out, first of all, that your objections are only in the nature of disliking the theory; just because you dislike Omniscient!Dumbledore, it doesn't follow that he isn't. I don't like Evil!Lupin, but it has a strong case, and it is altogether possible that that's what JKR has planned. Besides, I fail to see the correlation between Omniscient!Dumbledore and Dumbledore's!Story. Take, for example, Lord of The Rings. (Almost) inarguably Frodo is the main character, just like Harry is. And Gandalf (particularly Gandalf the White) is all-knowing. And yet it is still Frodo's story. What is more, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a wise mentor is desirable. I like stories to be realistic, even within a fantasy setting. The rules of phisics might have changed, but the people have not. And sincerely, a book were an eleven year old boy can overthrow the bad guy on its own, with no formulated plan and throwing caution to the winds may make a good film (Star Wars ep. IV), but it's hardly a story I'd want to discuss. Harry is a boy. He needs teaching. Which in turn requires a teacher. And that is Dumbledore. Once that is said, I will defend that Dumbledore is *not* omniscient. MD, in fact, is based on that principle. There are two teams in the field, Dumbledore's (and it is Dumbledore's and not Harry's, for a while at least) and Voldemort's. And it is almost canon that Dumbledore's was loosing before the fateful night. So Dumbledore wasn't all powerful and all-knowing then. And it even more canon that Dumbledore didn't see the Crouch!Moody plan until it was almost too late, nor did he see the Portkey!cup twist, or he wouldn't have allowed it. No, Dumbledore isn't omniscient, and Snape certainly is not. > I dislike MAGIC DISHWASHER because I think it makes Harry a chess > pawn, which I rebel against. That's an interesting acusation you make there, Darrin. Unfortunately, MD doesn't make Harry a chess pawn except in Voldemort's plans. Dumbledore's plans, whichever they happen to be, might include Harry, but Harry is never forced to carry them out. Canon: Harry realises that Dumbledore *allows* him to face (Quirrel)Voldemort in PS. The traps are designed for him and his friends, indeed, but Harry is never forced to make the choices nor is he led by the nose. In fact, there are two occasions in PS IIRC when Harry is pointedly told to NOT interfere. One is made by Snape, that could be argued that, since Harry dislikes Snape, it is a way to force him into acting by telling him the opposite. However, I believe this was a form of intimidation technique to stop Harry from getting involved. And in case that wasn't enough, McGonagall repeats the order later on. Mcgonagall, for Harry, represents authority, and authority Harry normally obeys (in class; he certainly does his homework and in general seems to accept McGonagalls authority). So we have the same order delivered by intimidation and from the established authority. Enough for a good boy like Harry to stay away. He does not, of course, due to moral issues, which are indeed above authority, and courage, which is above intimidation. The rest of what happens is training, for him and for his friends (you can read about how the "defenses" of the PS are training in the MD posts; way to OT in this post to go through it). The fact is that Harry is not a pawn. Not in MD, not in the books, except when Voldemort has the upper hand. When Dumbledore is involved, Harry is always allowed to make his own choices, and there is more than enough canon for that. MD doesn't say otherwise, either. What MD says is that Harry is being trained, and when the time comes, Dumbledore will indeed tell him what he needs to know. When he is ready, by Dumbledore's own words (PS). So Dumbledore *is* keeping things from Harry. If that makes Harry a pawn, then like it or not, Darrin, Harry * is* a pawn since it is canon. But MD argues otherwise. Harry isn't prepared for that information, and isn't trained enough. So he is a student, not a pawn. And like a student, he doesn't know everything that goes on. I keep talking about training, and it will become an issue, so let me elaborate. I am not saying that Harry is receiving special training by some dark plan of Dumbledore. Harry is in a school, and thus he is being trained. As are all the other students. Harry, however, has a knack for getting involved in what goes on in the school, and receives extra training ("But we've had plenty of practice at [DADA] anyway", Ron, CoS). Or he requests it himself (Anti-dementor lessons, PoA). Dumbledore doesn't force-feed him anything, and following his motto, allows Harry to make his own decisions. > * Mean and Clueless Snape, Smart, But Not THAT Smart Dumbledore: > The one I like the best. I like my Snape on a need-to-know basis, not > as ultra spymaster. I also like my Snape hateful in a lot of ways, > not some benevolent bat flapping around with 18 motives for every > action. > > Melody: > > Hm. That explained you loyalties to me quite well. I can't > > persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I? > > Nope. Snape works for me as a miserable guy who's chosen the right > side. You see, I keep seeing the bastard who let Hermione suffer in > front of her peers, who tortures Neville apparently just because he > can, and who is carrying a schoolboy grudge a generation later. Good canon examples, indeed. And yet... there is that little scene in CoS, in the office, when Snape has no public (and by public I mean students). McGonagall informs the staff that a student has been taken into the chamber. And Snape displays, for the first time, concern for someone who is not himself. He demonstrates, by gripping a chair hard, that he is worried. He doesn't know who the student is, so some people have theorized he feared it could be one of his Slytherin. But even if that is the case, it demonstrates that Snape is something more than the selfish, egocentric bastard you (and I) would like him to be. Beyond the shows he puts up for his students (and I really think it is a show - "to command the greatest respect one must be either loved or hated inconditionally" and Snape goes for both - loved by Slytherin, hated by everyone else). He might even enjoy it, but there is more to Snape than a one-dimensional tunnel vision of hate for James Potter. > Maybe there is more to why Snape hates James, but I think it's safe > to say he does, and transfers that to Harry. I just don't buy the > Acting!Snape in PoA. Again, I think you're misunderstanding MD here, Darrin. Snape does hate James Potter, for whatever reasons. It is not so clear that he hates Harry for those same reasons, though. And whether he does or not, that hate is not involved in the SS of PoA. The Acting!Snape (and we know he's an actor because he's a spy that turned on Voldemort and *is still alive*) is directed at Harry, to force him into taking control, and thus it is perfectly understandable that Snape used what he knew best would force Harry into action: insulting his father (check the original MD post; I'm not going to go through it again, it's all there). This, however, doesn't mean that what he said is false; in fact, it is easier to act when you use the truth. No, what gives him away is that previous to that point, Snape has never lost control, particularly not with a student, and it is even more strange given the fact that he is icy calm when facing the person he hates the most (more even than James, or at least as much): Sirius. Snape keeps hopping from one state to the other like a frog on hot rocks, and that is, for those tht follow MD, a faint smell of subterfuge. > The less hate you give Snape, the less complex he is, in my opinion. That cannot be true. Voldemort is nothing but hate, and he is very unidimensional. In fact, the whole idea is wrong: if a character is an elemental - i.e. based around a single idea- he is bound to be simple. Snape is complex because there is more to him than hate. He can care about students. He is willing to obey Dumbledore. He might be loyal, or he might be traiterous. But not just hate. But it is your opinion, so there really isn't much point in arguing. In my opinion, Snape becaomes more real the more faces he has, just like any other character. > Again, this isn't Snape's story. This is Harry's story. And if Snape > has got one hand on the puppet rig and D-Dore the other hand, what > fun would that be? Again, you're putting ideas in MD that simply are not there. Dumbledore certainly never pulls Harry's strings except when he really needs his help - like the Time-Turner incident in PoA. Snape will attempt to pull strings, but he's hardly Harry's controler. nor his puppeteer. More like the rude guy that pushes you into the fray... or out of the path of the car. And beyond that, We are discussing different things here. You want a Harry-centric book. I want a realistic book. In my view, Harry cannot do everything on his own - he needs help. Dumbledore and Snape, so far, have been the ones to provide it. And *I* think the books are much more fun because of it. In terms of the Knights of the Round Table, Lancelot the invincible knight was boring in his invicibility. Harry the all powerful and self-sufficient wizard would be exactly as boring. > To speculate that D-Dore needed Harry to realize the gift is to > speculate that D-Dore knew Harry would end up opening the Chamber of > Secrets. I really don't know about that... too much OmniDumbledore to > me. No, only that Harry *might* be the one to find the entrance. Or at least stop the monster. And all that needs is Dumbledore knowing about the chamber - which he knows-, Riddle's parselmouth -which he knows- and maybe the basilisk -which he might know. And of course, add all up together. And Since Hermione could put it all together in six months, Dumbledore has had more than enough time in 50 years, I think. > I like a Snape dealing with his hate, not already surpressed it and > just acting hateful. I want him to have been really angry in PoA, but > acting in other places. Interesting thought there. So you don't mind Snape acting, as long as he doesn't act in the SS. At any rate, it is your opinion, and as such I respect it, but I hope you realise that that is no argument against MD (I know, I know, you haven't attacked MD at all in your post, but hey! I'm the MDDT storm trooper. I *had* to answer). > I want him to know what he needs to know, just like Hagrid, > McGonagall, Lupin and Sirius. I don't know how he got nominated as > the right-hand guy and I don't think canon supports it -- or at > least, doesn't support it any more than it supports any other view. > > Darrin You do realise that that is MD's view, do you? We certainly don't say Snape is right-hand man. That's McGonagall, by canon. No, Snape is the left-hand man, the one that has the shadowy plans and gets to do the mucky jobs. And MD has always worked in the assumption of information distributed in need-to-know basis. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who hasn't made a come back, just found free time From jhlupin at hotmail.com Wed May 14 17:59:43 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (Johannes Lupin) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:59:43 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An acronym, why can't JKR count, etc. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57859 >Ersatz Harry wrote: > >(5) With the exception of Rita Skeeter, all of the significant >malevolent (or malevolent-seeming) characters that I can think of are >male. In my very humble opionion, I am not so sure Rita Skeeter *is* a female. She is described as having very masculine features, and was an unregistered animagi. Is the male impersonating Rita registered as an animagi? Is he the fourth person, as to yet unidentified, convicted with the Lestranges? So far,Ii believe Narcissa and Ms. Lestrange to be the only true females to which we have had any real exposure. Celestina Warbeck, as a supporter of St. Mungo's Hospital, may fall into that category as well. Time will tell. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Wed May 14 18:37:31 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:37:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jump or Flight- was snape:rope from his hands. Message-ID: <3EC28CEB.A3E03C50@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57860 Valky wrote: > But all he tried to do was jump behind the big > bins outside the kitchen doors. Harry supposed that the wind must > have caught him in mid-jump." > >> So, I put it to all. Which magic do you suppose he performed with >> such relative ease? Unassisted Flight or Apparating? >> Pat writes: First of all, thanks for thinking of something new! The whole time travel thing makes my head swim. I don't think he flew. Isn't there something in canon that states they haven't figured out how to do that? Levitate, yes, but not fly. Otherwise, why bother with brooms? I also don't think he apparated. That's a tricky bit of magic, and I don't think it would happen spontaneously. So, my theory? It was a magically big, fast jump. (Think Superman, tall buildings in a single bound.) I think it was the Muggle equivalent of picking a car up off your child. You don't think, you just do it. Also, rather like Neville bouncing after his uncle dropped him. People can bounce, just not that way! People can jump, just not that high. Pat. --sorry Darrin, but Boomslang is taken for a band name! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Wed May 14 16:39:14 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:39:14 -0000 Subject: Subject: St. Mungo's not safe? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57861 sabotage3p3 wrote: >The next thing that the analysis made me think over was that he [Lucius Malfoy] does >a lot of contributions to St. Mungos. At first I thought nothing of >it. But I thought why would he contribute stuff if he is not >getting anything in return. I disagree. From the way Malfoy Sr. is presented in the books he tries to keep up a respectable appearance and wants to be seen as a valuable part of the wizarding society. This matches with what you said about him having a lot of influence on the board of schoolgovernors and the Minstry. However, in this position and especially with his financial possibilities it would only be the "right" thing to do to give money to charity or in this cas to St. Mungos. In that case the contributed money would be useful for giving him a better public opinion and he thereby is getting something in return: the approval he needs to become a big shot at the Ministry and leaving most people in delusion about his real allegiances. >He seems a evil person and to me it >looks like he would probably only do stuff for someone if they do >stuff for him. IMO that doesn't necessarily mean he is evil, only practical. I would think it to be a very Slytherin trait but not really evil. However, I agree that he would definitely always look for the benefits for doing something. >But these things were minor things and it didnt seem a big thing to >until in Chapter 27 Page 522 in Goblet of Fire, it says: > >"Harry scanned the story about Crouch. Phrases jumped out at him: >hasn't been seen in public since November...house appears >deserted...St. Mungo's Hosptital for Magical Maladies and Injuries >decline comment...Ministry refuses to confrim rumors of critical >illness." > >It says St. Mungo's decline comment. Why would they decline a >comment? The only reason they may have declined a comment was if >they were covering something up. If he was sick or anything was >wrong with him, they could of at least said that, he had some kind >of problem and will not be in work for a little while. I supspect that for them to give a comment they would need the permission of the patient, medical records are confidential after all and the only one who *had* to be notified of his illness would be his employer which is the MoM. Now in the excerpt it say that the Ministry also doesn't say what's really going on which in my opinion can only be explained in two ways: a) They don't know and don't want to look like idiots or b) They don't want the general public to know because it's either dangerous or embarrassing. >Soo, to say the truth it looks like St. Mungo isn't safe but JK >Rowling could of done that to lead us to believe that it isn't safe >(you never know) and Lucius Malfoy contributed money so that his >family and him could get special services. Why would she want us to believe that it wouldn't be safe? And I'm fairly sure a Malfoy with all that money would get special treatment anyway, regardless od whether he gave money to St. Mungos or not. I don't know what it's like in Britain and certainly not in the wizarding world but here in Germany we have state health care that you still have to pay for but it's considerably less than private health care which allows you to get a single room in hospital and different kinds of alternate treatments etc. As a Malfoy I'd say only the best is good enough and he has the money to pay for it. >But if they are dark wizards running it, they could do anything. >They could decline some wizard treatment or they could do the wrong >thing to a good wizard. You never know! I think there is a *big* difference between Malfoy (who is *one* Dark Wizard) giving money to St. Mungos and Dark Wizards *running* it. Of course, if it ever came to a Dark Wizard running it, there still must be instances, e.g. in the Ministry or press who would take notice of light wizards disappearing or dieing more than usual. Also, again I don't know about Britain or the wizarding world but a doctor here *has* to treat a patient, otherwise he can be sued for ommissed aid (not sure if that's the right term). And again that would come to the notice of the Ministry or the press pretty quickly. Sabrina From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 16:57:58 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can't Count? In-Reply-To: <42.3875d637.2bf3cdd6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030514165758.50770.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57862 jodel at aol.com wrote: Ersatz Harry grumbles: >>The earliest bad one I can think of comes early in the series, right at the end of the sorting ceremony in PS/SS (p. 122 in my US edition). Harry has already been sorted, and the text shortly after states: "And now there were only three people left to be sorted." The names of Thomas, Dean and Turpin, Lisa are mentioned, "then it was Ron's turn". Sounds like three to me, but the next paragraph refers to one more sortee: Zabini, Blaise. << This one actually turns out to have been an editing error in the American edition. In the original UK edition Dean Thomas is not mentioned or described. The error was in inserting his name and description after the "only three more" statement rather than ahead of it. But, yeah, there are so many of these rather sloppy time/date errors that you wonder what the hell is going on. And the *earliest* is in the first chapter of the first book, which is clearly stated to open on a TUESDAY "early" in November (from other internal evidence this has to be November first). A few paragraphs later there is a radio anouncer fatuously commenting on Daedelus Diggle's fireworks with the statement that "Bonfire night is next week, folks". Well so far as I know (not being a Brit) bonfire night is Nov 5. The Saturday of the *same* week. Now, if he had said next weekEND, it would make sense. But it doesn't as it stands. And, as far as that goes, if Rowling DID intend this open in 1981, November 1 was not ON a tuesday in 1981. And the list just goes on and on. And her copy editors are equally at fault, since they ought to be paying attention to this sort of thing. What else are copy editors for? -JOdel, grousing in sympathy Me: In all fairness though, as the storyline has gotten more serious I think Ms. Rowling pays a whole lot more attention to these matters then in the earliest books. That is why trying to analyse the first book is at best a dangerous proposition. There was a lot of stuff put into it just for fun that would be reconsidered if she was writing it today I think although of course she already had the basic storyline for the series in her mind by then of course. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 14 18:46:33 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:46:33 -0000 Subject: Stone Defenses WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > Then Darrin Said: > > > > > C'mon, give the Trio SOME credit, will you? > > > > ...response edited... > > Darrin continues in this new post: > > Actually, I said more than just what you quoted. I asked how > Dumbledore asked the other teachers to come up with defenses. Did he > say to do their best or to blow it off, because he was going to > allow a first-year to get to the Mirror? > bboy_mn: First, I'm one of those people who find it extremely annoying that anyone taking an objective look would call the challenges leading to the Stone easy. You can say that the challenges were defeated by three first years, so they couldn't have been that bad. But the weren't just defeated by any 3 first years. Take any other three first years for any combination of houses, and their chances of getting beyond the first chamber are about ZERO, and their chances of making it all the way to the end, really are ZERO. Individually, Harry or Ron or Hermione would have been killed in an attempt to get to the Stone, and a great deal of luck as well as genius came into to play in their actually making it as a group. Before I go into individual protections, I would like to make a distinction. Fluffy, the Devil's Snare, and the Troll are protections; the keys, the chessboard, the potions, and maybe the Mirror are challenges. This Challenge as a protection is very common in the magical world. For example, it it common to let Sphinx guard treasures, but a Sphinx guards them with a riddle as we saw when Harry encountered the Sphinx in the GoF maze. So why would you have a guard/protection that would willingly allow a potential thief access to the treasure? Why? Because that's how magic minds think. This type of protection. protection by challenge or riddle, has a long history in lore, fable, myth, legend, fantasy, etc.... 1.) A monsterous three-headed vicious hound from hell. Very very very few people would have known how to get past a 'hell-hound'. Those who did venture into the first (Fluffy) chamber, would have done exactly what Harry/Ron/Hermione/Neville did the first time they were in there; run like hell. Even using your wand as a weapon, a three-headed hell hound would have been hard to defeat. Notice that Quirrel did not make any attempt to overpower Fluffy (no death curse, no stunner curse, no leg or jaw lock curse, no total body bind, no sleeping draft, etc...), he used the only know effective method. My guess is any wizard who tried a method other than music, not matter how powerful that method was, would find himself one dead wizard. 2.) A long long long long long fall onto a plant that immediately begins to crush you to death. It was just by chance and fast reactions that Hermione pulled herself off the Devil's Snare before it managed to get a good hold of here. Individually, each of them would have been dead. It would be very easy to pause to take a deep breath and recompose yourself after surviving a long fall like that, and that is exactly what the Devil's Snare need to ensnare you. That would be a very difficult trap to escape. How many people would have even been willing to risk the fall? Very few I think; only the most daring and desparate would jump into a trapdoor without knowing what lie beneath. So in a sense, the trapdoor itself was another protection; mark it (1a). 3.) The Keys - I think the logic of the 'riddle' of the keys would escape most people. Ron quickly and logically noted that the key would likely match the lock in appearance. I think most people would have just looked at the relative size, and began chasing, catching, and trying keys, hoping that eventually they would get the right one. Given the many hunreds of key, that could have take quite a while. Ron's assumption of size, shape and color narrowed it down. Their combined flight skills and Harry keen eye of a Seeker, gave them a trememdous advantage over a single challenger working on his own. Their individual unique skill and team work allowed them to find the key, that others would have struggled with and possibly failed to accomplish. 4.) The Chessboard - it wouldn't take a genius to know that failing at a challenge like this would be possibly dangerous and probably deadly. This challenge also reminds me of the Sphinx; turn back and walk away unharmed, overcome the challenge and move forward, try and fail an you face grace consequences. How about you? You willing to bet your life and the life of your friends on your chess skills? Even if your chess skills are up to the task, do you have the courage and strength of character to sacrifice yourself for the greater good the way Ron did. I doubt it. Again, this challenge is overcome by unique skill, and uncommon courage and self-sacrifice. Very few would have the strength and quality of character combined with the special skills to get past this challenge. 5.) The Riddle of the Potions - sure it's easy to be a reader of the book and say, 'I solved that puzzle in no time at all.', but were you stressed out from facing 4 prior deadly challenges, did the fate of the world rest in your hands, were you trapped behind a wall of fire, were you on the threshold of facing an evil wizard if you won, were you willing to bet your life and the life of your friend on the outcome of your solution of the riddle? It's easy to do these things when 'the gun isn't pointed at your head'. Assuming you didn't poison yourself, you would likely be trapped behind the flames until someone came looking for you. AND and this is a very BIG AND, do you have a wizard's mind set, do you relate to the world with the perspective and life experience of a wizard; someone who has never studied logic or logical analytical methods like math? For a wizard, this was a deadly challenge. Fortunately, Harry and Hermione, relative to their life experience, are not wizards; they grew up in the muggle world and have learned structured analytical thinking methods. 6.) The Troll - fortunately, Quirrel already knock out the troll. But if any other wizard was trying to break into there are any other time, they would have been faced with a very angry, bored, hungry, and extremely large troll. I don't think there would have been enough sheer dumb luck in the world to save most people. 7.) The Mirror - well, many many people have already said that the Mirror alone was the most effective challenge in the group and could have probably effectively guarded the Stone all by itself. Certainly, a brilliant challenge. But I have to wonder if the Mirror didn't also have some hazards added to it. For example (no cannon support), if you tried to strike the mirror to break it, you might have been sucked inside and trapped there. It would be the first 'fairytale' mirror to suck people inside and trap them. The Mirror could have been an even greater challenge that we know. Even without the additional implied hazards, it was still pretty brilliant. Conclusion, I don't see how anyone can seriously think that ANY first years or any three first years other than Harry/Hermione/Ron could have stood even the slightest chance again the challenges, and I don't see very many adult wizards or witches who would have been up to the challenge either; only the most foolish and desparate. The Quirrel exception - I think Quirrel knew the 'backdoor' to most of the challenges. That is, he got around them without actually confronting the challenge, either by knowing how to by-pass it, or in the case of the Riddle of the Potions, knowing the answer in advance. I think he knew how to avoid the Devil's Snare, I think he knew exactly what key he was looking for, I think he by-passed the chess game altogether, and I think he knew which potion bottle to drink from without solving the riddle. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > You're telling me that if Dumbledore asked Snape to come up with a > tough logic puzzle, he would have gone half-ass on it? > No, I think Dumbledore made a serious request and the teacher responded with serious efforts, efforts steeped in the mindset and mentality of the wizard world. > We know Quirrell got past all that stuff, but he did have the spirit > of the brightest student ever at Hogwarts helping him, too. > > Darrin > -- Wants the Trio to get their props. While Quirrel did have the 'spirit of the brightest student ever at Hogwarts' helping him, you can see what I feel is a more logical explaination in the 'The Quirrel exception' paragraph above. I model this belief on computer programming. Although very much frowned upon by employeers today, back in the wild and wolly times of computer programming, it was common for programmer to build a backdoor into their programs. This 'backdoor' would allow them to get driectly into the program by by-passing all the security features. It make working on the program a lot less tedious when you could quickly by-pass these access restriction. I seriously doubt that Dumbledore played his way throught all the challenges everytime he wanted to go down to the chamber that had the Mirror and the Stone. So, based on all that, I have to assume that where applicable, there was a by-pass for each of the challenges. Just a thought. bboy_mn From heidit at netbox.com Wed May 14 18:47:22 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:47:22 -0000 Subject: Meetups, Travel + Disney-related Updates from Nimbus - 2003 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57864 Just a reminder from Team Nimbus - 2003 that you have a little over 24 hours to take advantage of the $149.75 registration fee before the registration costs go up again. If you're new to HPfGU and you're not familiar with Nimbus - 2003, it's the first international Harry Potter symposium, and it's set for July 17-20, 2003, in Orlando, Florida at Walt Disney's Swan & Dolphin Hotel. This Symposium is meant to be a good mix of academic conference and "fan-con," and will feature presentations from Judith Krug of the American Library Association, Ari Rapkin, who's in ILM's special effects department (and who worked on the CoS film), a number of the contributors to The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter, Roger Highfield, the author of The Science of Harry Potter, and dozens of academicians and fans from around the world. You can find out more in our FAQ, which is located here: http://www.hp2003.org/nimbusfaq.html - or check out the HPfGU- convention yahoogroup at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu- convention/ Now, on to the updates! 1. We know a lot of you are ready to make your flight arrangements. OneTravel.com, a collective website made from small travel agencies worldwide, has offered a slight discount to travellers making their plans for Nimbus - 2003. You can access their flight search here: http://eair.onetravel.com/index.cfm?action=FBHome&DK=1000010946 (note: you may need to cut & paste the link - or you can follow it right from the travel page at http://www.hp2003.org/nimbustravel.html. 2. The Swan's made it possible for you to pre-order discounted passes to the parks - you can go here: https://secure.hes- services.com/wdwticket/swandolphin03.asp. In addition to the regular passes, all of which are available at discounts, you can also get a very nifty "After 2" pass, which will allow you to get into one park per day at a price that's about 30% off the cost of a full day pass. And given that the Magic Kingdom is open until after 9 each night, and EPCOT and MGM are both open until 9, it's a pretty good deal. FYI, the park hours are also now available here: http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/waltdisneyworld/parksandmore/parkhou rs/parkhoursindex?id=SEAllParksLocationCrit&date=72003 3. Nimbus - 2003 has been added to MeetUp.com's listing of Harry Potter gatherings worldwide. For those of you who do not know, MeetUp.com is a service that connects people through a series of monthly meetings, all held in public places like bookstores or coffee shops. The Harry Potter MeetUps are on the third Tuesday of each month at 8:00 pm local time, and they have other MeetUps for subgroups of Harry Potter fans. They'll also be holding a one-time MeetUp on the evening of June 20. We're very pleased that Nimbus - 2003 is now included in the list of gatherings that will occur this spring and summer through MeetUp.com. For more information about MeetUp and the Harry Potter gatherings, visit the Harry Potter-focused sections of their website at: harrypotter.meetup.com hpforgrownups.meetup.com seanbiggerstaff.meetup.com alanrickman.meetup.com danielradcliffe.meetup.com And we can't divulge all the info just yet, but we can give a sneak preview of the fact that Nimbus - 2003 is thrilled that The-Leaky- Cauldron.org is going to be a great resource for information about OoTP release events - keep your eye on that site (and our links section here) for more information! Any questions? Heidi for Team Nimbus - 2003 PS - we still have a number of programming sessions which are available for sponsorship! Check out http://www.hp2003.org/nimbuspgmsponsor.html for more details, or ask us about the process at sponsor at hp2003.org! From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 15:46:45 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: evil females/Rita Skeeter and where is James's family? In-Reply-To: <20030514070822.85210.qmail@web20511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030514154645.32385.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57865 Anita wrote: And Rita Skeeter is of course horrible, the worst kind of journalist I can think of. I was thrilled when Hermione got her! If she'd have stepped on her...wow...thats murder.. I think Hermione should do something like expose all her lies, tell the truth behind her "quotes" and everything..And Rita gets arrested for libel..thrown in Azkaban..ooh.. I think I'm drifting. I know you can't really stop the papparazzi, so it's best to ignore them but this woman is capable of doing a lot of damage, right? Wonder what Rita is going to do when she gets out of captivity...it could get ugly. Me: Two things about Rita. I wonder if she ever actually read anything she "wrote" about anybody. She had a magick pen for doing that! Also, Rita very well may be a dead thread now in future books as Hermoine has a very effect piece of blackmail to use against her. I got the feeling that being an unregistered animagous is a pretty serious offense. Dumbledore was impressed about Sirius, James and Peter pulling it off but I've always had the feeling that Dumbledore shares Harry's (and his father's) attitudes about "rule breaking". But when Hermoine said that if she doesn't learn to stop telling lies she's "going to spill the beans on her", she said it like that was a very serious threat. And with all her reading, Hermoine would know. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Wed May 14 17:07:12 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:07:12 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an interp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57866 darrin burnett wrote: > I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient > Dumbledore. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more > Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their > story and less Harry's story. I want to point out, first of all, that your objections are only in the nature of disliking the theory; just because you dislike Omniscient!Dumbledore, it doesn't follow that he isn't. I don't like Evil!Lupin, but it has a strong case, and it is altogether possible that that's what JKR has planned. Besides, I fail to see the correlation between Omniscient!Dumbledore and Dumbledore's!Story. Take, for example, Lord of The Rings. (Almost) inarguably Frodo is the main character, just like Harry is. And Gandalf (particularly Gandalf the White) is all-knowing. And yet it is still Frodo's story. What is more, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a wise mentor is desirable. I like stories to be realistic, even within a fantasy setting. The rules of phisics might have changed, but the people have not. And sincerely, a book were an eleven year old boy can overthrow the bad guy on its own, with no formulated plan and throwing caution to the winds may make a good film (Star Wars ep. IV), but it's hardly a story I'd want to discuss. Harry is a boy. He needs teaching. Which in turn requires a teacher. And that is Dumbledore. Once that is said, I will defend that Dumbledore is *not* omniscient. MD, in fact, is based on that principle. There are two teams in the field, Dumbledore's (and it is Dumbledore's and not Harry's, for a while at least) and Voldemort's. And it is almost canon that Dumbledore's was loosing before the fateful night. So Dumbledore wasn't all powerful and all-knowing then. And it even more canon that Dumbledore didn't see the Crouch!Moody plan until it was almost too late, nor did he see the Portkey!cup twist, or he wouldn't have allowed it. No, Dumbledore isn't omniscient, and Snape certainly is not. > I dislike MAGIC DISHWASHER because I think it makes Harry a chess > pawn, which I rebel against. That's an interesting acusation you make there, Darrin. Unfortunately, MD doesn't make Harry a chess pawn except in Voldemort's plans. Dumbledore's plans, whichever they happen to be, might include Harry, but Harry is never forced to carry them out. Canon: Harry realises that Dumbledore *allows* him to face (Quirrel)Voldemort in PS. The traps are designed for him and his friends, indeed, but Harry is never forced to make the choices nor is he led by the nose. In fact, there are two ocasions in PS IIRC when Harry is pointedly told to NOT interfere. One is made by Snape, that could be argued that, since Harry dislikes Snape, it is a way to force him into acting by telling him the oposite. However, I believe this was a form of intimidation technique to stop Harry from getting involved. And in case that wasn't enough, McGonagall repeats the order later on. Mcgonagall, for Harry, represents authority, and authority Harry normally obeys (in class; he certainly does his homework and in general seems to accept McGonagalls authority). So we have the same order delivered by intimidation and from the established authority. Enough for a good boy like Harry to stay away. He does not, of course, due to moral issues, which are indeed above authority, and courage, which is above intimidation. The rest of what happens is training, for him and for his friends (you can read about how the "defenses" of the PS are training in the MD posts; way to OT in this post to go through it). The fact is that Harry is not a pawn. Not in MD, not in the books, except when Voldemort has the upper hand. When Dumbledore is involved, Harry is always allowed to make his own choices, and there is more than enough canon for that. MD doesn't say otherwise, either. What MD says is that Harry is being trained, and when the time comes, Dumbledore will indeed tell him what he needs to know. When he is ready, by Dumbledore's own words (PS). So Dumbledore *is* keeping things from Harry. If that makes Harry a pawn, then like it or not, Darrin, Harry *is* a pawn since it is canon. But MD argues otherwise. Harry isn't prepared for that information, and isn't trained enough. So he is a student, not a pawn. And like a student, he doesn't know everything that goes on. I keep talking about training, and it will become an issue, so let me elaborate. I am not saying that Harry is receiving special training by some dark plan of Dumbledore. Harry is in a school, and thus he is being trained. As are all the other students. Harry, however, has a knack for getting involved in what goes on in the school, and receives extra training ("But we've had plenty of practice at [DADA] anyway", Ron, CoS). Or he requests it himself (Anti-dementor lessons, PoA). Dumbledore doesn't force-feed him anything, and following his motto, allows Harry to make his own decisions. > * Mean and Clueless Snape, Smart, But Not THAT Smart Dumbledore: > The one I like the best. I like my Snape on a need-to-know basis, not as ultra > spymaster. I also like my Snape hateful in a lot of ways, not some benevolent bat > flapping around with 18 motives for every action. > > Melody: > > Hm. That explained you loyalties to me quite well. I can't > > persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I? > > Nope. Snape works for me as a miserable guy who's chosen the right > side. You see, I keep seeing the bastard who let Hermione suffer in front > of her peers, who tortures Neville apparently just because he can, > and who is carrying a schoolboy grudge a generation later. Good canon examples, indeed. And yet... there is that little scene in CoS, in the office, when Snape has no public (and by public I mean students). McGonagall informs the staff that a student has been taken into the chamber. And Snape displays, for the first time, concern for someone who is not himself. He demonstrates, by gripping a chair hard, that he is worried. He doesn't know who the student is, so some people have theorized he feared it could be one of his Slytherin. But even if that is the case, it demonstrates that Snape is something more than the selfish, egocentric bastard you (and I) would like him to be. Beyond the shows he puts up for his students (and I really think it is a show - "to command the greatest respect one must be either loved or hated inconditionally" and Snape goes for both - loved by Slytherin, hated by everyone else). He might even enjoy it, but there is more to Snape than a one- dimensional tunnel vision of hate for James Potter. > Maybe there is more to why Snape hates James, but I think it's safe > to say he does, and transfers that to Harry. I just don't buy the > Acting!Snape in PoA. Again, I think you're misunderstanding MD here, Darrin. Snape does hate James Potter, for whatever reasons. It is not so clear that he hates Harry for those same reasons, though. And whether he does or not, that hate is not involved in the SS of PoA. The Acting!Snape (and we know he's an actor because he's a spy that turned on Voldemort and *is still alive*) is directed at Harry, to force him into taking control, and thus it is perfectly understandable that Snape used what he knew best would force Harry into action: insulting his father (check the original MD post; I'm not going to go through it again, it's all there). This, however, doesn't mean that what he said is false; in fact, it is easier to act when you use the truth. No, what gives him away is that previous to that point, Snape has never lost control, particularly not with a student, and it is even more strange given the fact that he is icy calm when facing the person he hates the most (more even than James, or at least as much): Sirius. Snape keeps hopping from one state to the other like a frog on hot rocks, and that is, for those tht follow MD, a faint smell of subterfuge. > The less hate you give Snape, the less complex he is, in my opinion. That cannot be true. Voldemort is nothing but hate, and he is very unidimensional. In fact, the whole idea is wrong: if a character is an elemental - i.e. based around a single idea- he is bound to be simple. Snape is complex because there is more to him than hate. He can care about students. He is willing to obey Dumbledore. He might be loyal, or he might be traiterous. But not just hate. But it is your opinion, so there really isn't much point in arguing. In my opinion, Snape becaomes more real the more faces he has, just like any other character. > Again, this isn't Snape's story. This is Harry's story. And if Snape > has got one hand on the puppet rig and D-Dore the other hand, what > fun would that be? Again, you're putting ideas in MD that simply are not there. Dumbledore certainly never pulls Harry's strings except when he really needs his help - like the Time- Turner incident in PoA. Snape will attempt to pull strings, but he's hardly Harry's controler. nor his puppeteer. More like the rude guy that pushes you into the fray... or out of the path of the car. And beyond that, We are discussing different things here. You want a Harry-centric book. I want a realistic book. In my view, Harry cannot do everything on his own - he needs help. Dumbledore and Snape, so far, have been the ones to provide it. And *I* think the books are much more fun because of it. In terms of the Knights of the Round Table, Lancelot the invincible knight was boring in his invicibility. Harry the all powerful and self-sufficient wizard would be exactly as boring. > To speculate that D-Dore needed Harry to realize the gift is to > speculate that D-Dore knew Harry would end up opening the Chamber of > Secrets. I really don't know about that... too much OmniDumbledore to > me. No, only that Harry *might* be the one to find the entrance. Or at least stop the monster. And all that needs is Dumbledore knowing about the chamber - which he knows-, Riddle's parselmouth -which he knows- and maybe the basilisk -which he might know. And of course, add all up together. And Since Hermione could put it all together in six months, Dumbledore has had more than enough time in 50 years, I think. > I like a Snape dealing with his hate, not already surpressed it and > just acting hateful. I want him to have been really angry in PoA, but > acting in other places. Interesting thought there. So you don't mind Snape acting, as long as he doesn't act in the SS. At any rate, it is your opinion, and as such I respect it, but I hope you realise that that is no argument against MD (I know, I know, you haven't attacked MD at all in your post, but hey! I'm the MDDT storm trooper. I *had* to answer). > I want him to know what he needs to know, just like Hagrid, > McGonagall, Lupin and Sirius. I don't know how he got nominated as > the right-hand guy and I don't think canon supports it -- or at > least, doesn't support it any more than it supports any other view. > > Darrin You do realise that that is MD's view, do you? We certainly don't say Snape is right- hand man. That's McGonagall, by canon. No, Snape is the left-hand man, the one that has the shadowy plans and gets to do the mucky jobs. And MD has always worked in the assumption of information distributed in need-to-know basis. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who hasn't made a come back, just found free time From alexpie at aol.com Wed May 14 19:04:02 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:04:02 EDT Subject: HP Guides Message-ID: <10.3028653d.2bf3ed22@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57867 ajlboston" which I didn't find at BNN, but found another: >Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter by >Galadriel Waters, Astre Mithrandir (Paperback) Ba now: Aside from the distractingly *awful *grammar, the adolescent sniggering, the homophobia, the missed clues, and the generally jejune tone? To drag in canon, how could they not get the significance of Mrs. Norris's name (notorious Jane Austen busybody), and that Ludo (as in Bagman) means "I play"? Ba [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sarudy at yahoo.com Wed May 14 19:17:17 2003 From: sarudy at yahoo.com (karmakaze_kk) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:17:17 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra In-Reply-To: <00c301c3198d$bea7b190$de4053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57868 > Christine: >>I was under the impression while reading the book that the reason AK >>didnt work on harry was for the same reason that Voldemort couldnt >>touch him. So, when Voldemort got his body back and became able to >>touch Harry again, I assumed that he was then also able to kill >>Harry. I dont know why Lucius would try to kill Harry as he probably >>knew why AK didn't work on him. But, as that detail was just added >>in the movie, I wouldn't take it completely seriously. Grace: > I don't think this has anything to do with LV touching Harry. > The point is, AK bounces off Harry. Do we actually have any evidence that Harry actually is immune to the Avada Kedavra curse? All I'm sure of is that the curse cast by Voldemort when he was a baby backfired, and that, later, Voldemort was unable to bear physical contact with Harry. I'm not convinced that, whatever it is, Harry's protection is an all purpose blanket AK-proof shield. Other people have been able to touch Harry with impunity (Pettigrew, for example) - so why assume that Harry is immune to AK from any source in all circumstances? What we've seen Harry's protection do is: 1) Reflect a curse when he was a baby 2) Repel physical contact from the person who cast said curse 3) Warn him (via pain) of negative attention focused on him by from the person who cast said curse In the graveyard scene, we see #2 has been foiled, and that #3 remains in effect. We don't get to see AK connect, so we don't know if #1 is still in effect or not - since we have one protection foiled and one still in effect, there's evidence to suggest either way. Note also that these protections have all been to Voldemort specifically. Why shouldn't an AK curse cast by someone else work? From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 14 19:35:58 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:35:58 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an in In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57869 Grey wolf pointed out: > darrin burnett wrote: > > I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient > > Dumbledore. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more > > Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their > > story and less Harry's story. > > I want to point out, first of all, that your objections are only in the > nature of disliking the theory; just because you dislike > Omniscient!Dumbledore, it doesn't follow that he isn't. I don't like > Evil!Lupin, but it has a strong case, and it is altogether possible > that that's what JKR has planned. I don't recall saying anything else but that I disliked it. I wasn't commen= ting on the viability of it, just that I think it would make a weaker story. > > Besides, I fail to see the correlation between Omniscient!Dumbledore > and Dumbledore's!Story. Take, for example, Lord of The Rings. (Almost) > inarguably Frodo is the main character, just like Harry is. And Gandalf > (particularly Gandalf the White) is all-knowing. And yet it is still > Frodo's story. What is more, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that > a wise mentor is desirable. I like stories to be realistic, even within > a fantasy setting. The rules of phisics might have changed, but the > people have not. And sincerely, a book were an eleven year old boy can > overthrow the bad guy on its own, with no formulated plan and throwing > caution to the winds may make a good film (Star Wars ep. IV), but it's > hardly a story I'd want to discuss. The difference to me is a story where Dumbledore orchestrates most everything vs. where Dumbledore is there for guidance, wisdom, some muscle when needed and generally being the smartest guy in the room. I prefer the latter. Me: > > I dislike MAGIC DISHWASHER because I think it makes Harry a chess > > pawn, which I rebel against. So Dumbledore *is* keeping things from > Harry. If that makes Harry a pawn, then like it or not, Darrin, Harry * > is* a pawn since it is canon. But MD argues otherwise. Harry isn't > prepared for that information, and isn't trained enough. So he is a > student, not a pawn. And like a student, he doesn't know everything > that goes on. Fair enough. I do admit it has been a while since I studied the MD theory a= nd I don't doubt that I mischaracterized it in places. > > Melody: > > > Hm. ?That explained you loyalties to me quite well. ?I can't > > > persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I? > > ? > > Nope. Snape works for me as a miserable guy who's chosen the right > > side. You see, I keep seeing the bastard who let Hermione suffer in > > front of her peers, who tortures Neville apparently just because he > > can, and who is carrying a schoolboy grudge a generation later. > > Good canon examples, indeed. And yet... there is that little scene in > CoS, in the office, when Snape has no public (and by public I mean > students). McGonagall informs the staff that a student has been taken > into the chamber. And Snape displays, for the first time, concern for > someone who is not himself. He demonstrates, by gripping a chair hard, > that he is worried. He doesn't know who the student is, so some people > have theorized he feared it could be one of his Slytherin. But even if > that is the case, it demonstrates that Snape is something more than the > selfish, egocentric bastard you (and I) would like him to be. Beyond > the shows he puts up for his students (and I really think it is a show > - "to command the greatest respect one must be either loved or hated > inconditionally" and Snape goes for both - loved by Slytherin, hated by > everyone else). He might even enjoy it, but there is more to Snape than > a one-dimensional tunnel vision of hate for James Potter. That IS an interesting scene. I think, myself, that this is where whatever = caused Snape to turn against Voldemort might be showing itself, but I don't= know. And it is one I have overlooked in my condemnations of Snape. I'll be= sure to add it in from now on. > > The less hate you give Snape, the less complex he is, in my opinion. > > That cannot be true. Voldemort is nothing but hate, and he is very > unidimensional. In fact, the whole idea is wrong: if a character is an > elemental - i.e. based around a single idea- he is bound to be simple. > Snape is complex because there is more to him than hate. He can care > about students. He is willing to obey Dumbledore. He might be loyal, or > he might be traiterous. But not just hate. No, I believe it is true, and I'll explain. I believe many, not all, but ma= ny, of the examinations of Snape attempt to provide ?motives to his turning against V-= Mort at the expense of his passions. I like Snape OVERCOMING his hate, and that is more challenging, and more interesting, the more hate he has built up. ? What is fascinating about Snape to me is what I perceive -- and hope to be = -- his battle with his inherent nature, which I believe to be a bitter, misera= ble person. The stronger that inherent nature is, the more interesting the batt= le to overcome it, and the glimpses we get of actual decency and humanity. > Interesting thought there. So you don't mind Snape acting, as long as > he doesn't act in the SS. At any rate, it is your opinion, and as such > I respect it, but I hope you realise that that is no argument against > MD (I know, I know, you haven't attacked MD at all in your post, but > hey! I'm the MDDT storm trooper. I *had* to answer). My main objections, as I recall, with MD, ?were always that I thought it ga= ve Dumbledore too much of a chess board and the entire mutli-tasking scene in = the Shrieking Shack. This plays into that I want Snape to be just devastate= d, and yes, deranged, that Sirius escaped. There, I want him to not be acting.= I want the hatred between those men to be real, and unfettered by Dumbeldore's orders or desires, until the scene in GoF when they shake hands. > > I want him to know what he needs to know, just like Hagrid, > > McGonagall, Lupin and Sirius. I don't know how he got nominated as > > the right-hand guy and I don't think canon supports it -- or at > > least, doesn't support it any more than it supports any other view. > > > You do realise that that is MD's view, do you? We certainly don't say > Snape is right-hand man. That's McGonagall, by canon. No, Snape is the > left-hand man, the one that has the shadowy plans and gets to do the > mucky jobs. And MD has always worked in the assumption of information > distributed in need-to-know basis. At this point, I don't believe I was criticizing MD so much as the comment = that D-Dore and Snape talk all the time and Snape knows everything. Again, in my= foggy recollections of MD, if I criticized it, I didn't mean to. Darrin -- Very helpful, thank you :) From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 14 18:10:16 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:10:16 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: <20030514162829.2708.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57870 > darrin wrote: > > Idea 3: For the love of a good Snape > > The "stand aside girl" bit, in my view, could > > have been just V-Mort > > wanting to kill the baby first. > > Lynn: > > I agree with another poster. You couldn't just > move me aside when I know you're after my child. > Voldemort, however, doesn't understand that kind > of love and so he perhaps thought just telling > Lily to move so she could live would be enough. > I tell you, if I was Lily and I had my wand with > me, I'd have AK'd Voldemort in a heartbeat. I'm not going to get too much farther into the "what real mothers would have done" theory because I just don't feel strongly enough about the possibility that V-Mort was trying to spare Lily. All I'm saying is that V-Mort, if he intended to spare Lily, whether for Snape, or for his own lusts (Ew!) or because she's his granddaughter (Ew again!), he didn't seem to try very hard. Now, onto Lynn's theories: > Idea 5: The Prediction Theory > > Trelawney makes her first real prediction that > the son of James Potter will bring the downfall > of Voldemort. Voldemort decides to get Harry > before Harry gets him. Voldemort hadn't intended > to kill James but does because James battled him. Very plausible. I tend to think, regardless, the V-Mort would have killed James and Lily anyway. It's just good business to not leave behind any vengeful folks. > Idea 6: Mixed-Up Theory > > Voldemort finds out that Harry is the true heir > of Gryffindor as Voldemort is the true heir of > Slytherin. Trelawney predicts that the heirs > will battle each other and that the Gryffindor > heir will win. Voldemort decides to off Harry > while he's a baby and therefore can't do battle > and therefore, Voldemort will win. James Potter > has been a general pain in the you-know-what to > Voldemort anyway, so Voldemort decides to get rid > of him figuring without him Lily will stop being > a pain since she's just a female anyway. And a Muggle-born female at that. So long as V-Mort's in the neighborhood, why not off another Mudblood? I could see that. Darrin -- The only good reason to Time Travel would be to see Marilyn Monroe in person. From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Wed May 14 20:03:36 2003 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (hphgrwlca) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:03:36 -0000 Subject: Aging Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57871 Hello all. Christine here. I was reading the OT list when I had a sudden question: Witches and wizards hit puberty around the same time as muggles, and also live about twice as long. So my question is, if they live twice as long, shouldn't their bodies take twice as long to mature/get old/whatever as Muggles' bodies? And if they don't (as I suspect they don't b/c both hit puberty at the same time), then do they age exactly like Muggles until they're 90 or so and then just stay in the 90-year-old body? Or do they look 150 when they're 150? I sure hope this makes sense. Any thoughts? Christine, who is very glad her Heart of Darkness paper is done and also quite peeved (:P)that she has to wear a dress under her graduation robes. How dumb is that!?! From cgbrennan at aol.com Wed May 14 16:23:34 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:23:34 -0000 Subject: ANOTHER Crazy 5th Person @ Godrics Hollow Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57872 I've tried to attach this to the last thread, but just couldn't manage it, so here goes: I never really thought about the "5th person" theory until I saw it raised here, but as I was reading the SS, AGAIN, I noticed something I hadn't noticed before. (And I apologize if this is old news, as I'm rather new) The night Harry sees Snape for the first time he has a dream where Malfoy turns into Snape, "...whose laugh becomes high and cold- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." Okay, I know it's a stretch, but we know that there is sometimes truth in Harry's dreams, but that they're not always completely accurate. I think Snape went there to help save them all, and that's how he proved his loyalty to Dumbldore. Maybe because he loved Lily, maybe because he was trying to redeem himself after having been a death eater... What do you guys think??? Colleen From acukier at uol.com.br Wed May 14 18:03:45 2003 From: acukier at uol.com.br (alexcukier) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:03:45 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Adopted!Harry_is_Really=85._TTTR?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57873 TAS wrote: "If 15-yr-old Harry were Tom Riddle, then Tom wouldn't have been at Hogwarts 50 years ago to rat on Hagrid and leave a diary. He would never have grown up 50 years ago to become Voldemort. Voldemort would not exist. All this is true as we know the time-turner. And I grant that I am building on zero canon when I say that "just because the time-turner can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done." But, as detectives like to say, to prove murder (rather than death by accident) you need both a method and a motive, and the more telling of the two is motive. We all know that JKR can create methods aplenty (who heard of portkeys before GoF?), so you will surely forgive me if I proceed to proof by motive and let her invent a method when the time comes. I propose that Voldemort himself brought his infant self forward using some dark arts which allowed his adult self to continue to exist even though his childhood time-line was being disrupted. And I propose that he did so for the express purpose of killing his infant self. J&L died, but enough is enough for now." Trisha wrote (and I agree): "One of the basic theories of time travel across most mediums (and sci-fi) is that you can't change the *reason* you go back. Example: If someone (let's say Dumbledore) went back a few hours on Halloween 1981 to say Lily and James, once he actually *does* saved them, his reason for going back no longer exists. They're alive. So why did he go back to save them?" Now, Me - Alex Cukier I believe that TAS theory is very exciting, and most of them doesn't have any dificulties to be accept as possible. BUT, the mais problem is: haw to deal with Time-Travelling Paradoxes? As someone point out before (I'm sorry I do'n't remember who was!), if you go to the site: http://www.hogwarts- library.net/reference/potterverse_faq.html#timelines you have a wonderful explanation to Time-Travelling rules: "Anything that will be done during a Time-Travelling was already done in the past, but nobody could explain how it did happened at that time (the past)". The example of Trisha (above) is clear. When Harry saves Buckbeak, this was already done (but in this case Harry didin't know). When Harry do the Patronus Charm in the lake, it was already done (and he realizes that he thought it was James, before). So, if Voldemort went back to 1927 to get little tom M. Riddle/Harry Potter, Tom couldn't go to Hogwarts, if you (as I do) accept that THERE ARE ONLY ONE TIMELINE (see internet link above). But I believe that the main line of happenings described by TAS were correct, and the alternative plot would be: - The baby that was brought from 1927 to 1980 was, in fact (and I hate not being original, but...) Tom Riddle's TWIN BROTHER, that was sent to the same orphanage that was TOM, and missed near 1 year old. Of course, maybe only when he was adult (maybe after Hogwarts), the people from the orphanage said to him tha he had a missing brother. Maybe this explanation can solve the puzzle about Tom disappearance between 1945-1970: he was doing black magic to be immortal AND LOOKING FOR HIS BROTHER. Maybe Mrs. Trellawney prediction was about a Evil Magic Wizard who would be defeated by his Twin Good Brother! As we know, their wands have feather from the same phoenix - are twins! (Maybe George's and Fred's wands do to!!!). Tthem, Dumbledore/Lilly/ James went back to the past as they realized that could be the best way to defeat Voldemort (of course, they must do, because the baby was missing, kiddnaped by them in the past - only one timeline, remmember?). The main idea of SAME DNA, DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT, DIFFERENT CHOSES, could be sustained from TAS theory. Of course I should develop more this ideas, but I'd like to know what you do think about. Alex Cukier, The Brazilian Huge Fan! From truebeliever60 at hotmail.com Wed May 14 19:49:31 2003 From: truebeliever60 at hotmail.com (truebeliever60) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:49:31 -0000 Subject: St. Mungo's not safe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57874 wrote: > I was reading a Harry Potter book 1-4 analysis and because of it I > realized that St. Mungo doesn't seem as safe as it looks. The first > time I read the books (the Harry Potter books) I thought it's > probably a safe place because it's a hospital and most people see > them as a safe place in my opinion. I agree, St. Mungo's is suspicious. May I ask what analysis you were reading? I already know that the Ultimate Unauthorized Guide to Harry Potter Mysteries by the Wizarding World Press pays alot of attention to that institution. If that isn't the one you were reading, I highly recoomend it. Another concern about St. Mungo's: famous aurors the Longbottoms are hospitalized there, supposedly still disturbed from the Cruciatus Curse inflicted on them by the Lestranges and thier companions, including Barty Crouch Jr. However, if the administration of the hospital is influenced by DEs, then is thier safety in doubt? Are they perhaps being kept in a state of confused recovery on purpose? If so, why? Do they know something? It could be just wanton cruelty, but if it were that, why are they still alive at all? Possibly the wizard in charge of thier care is frightened enough to keep them there, but not loyal enough to Voldemort to commit murder outright? In any case, from what we know of our beloved author, Ms. Rowling, does anyone think it is a coincidence that we know of only two married couples who fought together, the Longbottoms and the Lestranges, that they were involved in an altercation years ago, AND that the altercation left both couples confined against thier will in less-than-trustworthy places? Does anyone really think we've seen the last of this storyline? I certainly don't. Hopelessly anticipating auror action, Tim From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 20:26:57 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an in In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514202657.97224.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57875 Dareen Wrote: > Good canon examples, indeed. And yet... there is that little scene in > CoS, in the office, when Snape has no public (and by public I mean > students). McGonagall informs the staff that a student has been taken > into the chamber. And Snape displays, for the first time, concern for > someone who is not himself. He demonstrates, by gripping a chair hard, > that he is worried.Darrin -- Very helpful, thank you :) ME: Well I don't think Snape is totally unfeeling or uncaring at all although he has a nasty cruel streak. But about that scene in McDonagall's office where Snape grips the chair hard, since this means they were going to have to close down the school, it COULD have been his job he was so concerned about! Wonder if they have Unemployment Insurance in the Wizard world. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed May 14 17:20:37 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: <20030514162829.2708.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030514172037.96296.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57876 > --- darrin wrote: > > Idea 1: Just Good Business > > > > Maybe the Potters were becoming dangerous. > > Lynn: > > Let's not forget that Malfoy made a comment in > CoS (p. 248, UK) that the Potters were meddlesome > fools. Even if the Potters were becoming dangerous, they couldn't have done anything while they were under the Fidelius (sp??) Charm. They would have been out of the way of Voldemort. Anyone that was making trouble for Voldemort would have been called 'meddlesom fools', so I don't think that had anything to do with it. Another thing, like before, what made them so special? I don't have anymore theories on that, but I have the question, why did Voldemort _apparently_ go to the home alone. Even if there was someone(s) else there, why did he not let them do the work to prove their loyalties? Maybe the Potters were better than first made to appear. But then that raises the question, why were two more than qualified wizard and witch able to be taken down so easily. If they were that good, Lily should have stood with James why they dueled Voldie. They may still have been defeated, but they would have gotten in some good licks as well, and that would have also been better protection for Harry instead of the one on one that Lily tried to pull. My two cents Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 14 21:14:17 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:14:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: avada kedavra References: Message-ID: <002001c31a5d$ce50ac20$9e9d253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57877 ----- Original Message ----- From: grace701 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:30 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: avada kedavra I (Izaskun )wrote: >LV can touch Harry because some of Harry's protection is now in his >own blood, but I think Grace has a point. LV has now the protection >that runs through Harry's blood but that doesn't mean he can kill >Harry, that doesn't mean that Harry is now unprotected himself. So >maybe he can't use the AK on Harry. We don't know for sure because >the spell never hit Harry. Greicy wrote: So if this is the case, doesn't that mean the Voldemort then would also not die if he is AKed? And then how would Voldemort die if he can't be AKed? I (IZaskun) answer: Well, that was VOldemort's point. He wanted Harry's blood because he knew he'll get his protection. "if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potters blood. I wanted the blood of the one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago . . . for the lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in my veins too." GoF. Chapter 32. But I think VOldemort made a mistake, don't know which, but, I think that taking Harry's blood, forcing Harry to give him blood must be a mistake. Maybe it means that Harry is the only one who can kill him. Whatever it is, Dumbledore knows about it, that look of triumph in his eyes must mean something. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 20:19:22 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore, Snape and Harry with a side of MD (WAS:The Dueling Club - an interpr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514201922.61553.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57878 Grey Wolf wrote: darrin burnett wrote: > I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient > Dumbledore. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more > Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their > story and less Harry's story. I want to point out, first of all, that your objections are only in the nature of disliking the theory; just because you dislike Omniscient!Dumbledore, it doesn't follow that he isn't. I don't like Evil!Lupin, but it has a strong case, and it is altogether possible that that's what JKR has planned. Besides, I fail to see the correlation between Omniscient!Dumbledore and Dumbledore's!Story. Take, for example, Lord of The Rings. (Almost) inarguably Frodo is the main character, just like Harry is. And Gandalf (particularly Gandalf the White) is all-knowing. And yet it is still Frodo's story. Me: Let me point out too that even Gandalf in Lord of the Rings, who by the way wasn't even human. He was Orin, one of the (seven or so?) servants (I forget what they were called-I would have to look it up) of the Gods who created middle-earth. But even HE didn't know what the result of his efforts were going to be. He could only do his best and hope Frodo delivers the goods. In our story here, Dumbledore has his finger on far more then he let's on here and is pretty darned close to Omnicisent at times I think but I cannot believe that he is in control of everything that is happening. Heck, even in the first book, when he got to Harry he was afraid he was too late to save his life! Assuming that his assurances that he won't lie to Harry is true, that's what he told him in the hospital. He can help Harry reach what Dumbledore believes is his destiny, and that will be to finally destroy Voldemort but when it comes down to it, it is going to be up to Harry to succeed or fail and there is nothing Dumbledore can do about that. Also Dumbledore obviously does not have the capacity to confront and destroy Voldemort or he would undoubedly do so himself. Another example is not only did Dumbledore not know about the three animagous in PoA until Sirius told him and was more surprised that he DIDN'T know then that they did it), but I've found NOTHING to indicate that he didn't believe as much as anybody else that Sirius Black was the betrayer of the Potters and was in the vacinity in order to kill Harry. More examples-he didn't expect the the trophy in GoF to be a trap and he absolutely didn't know that Mad Eye Moody wasn't who he was supposed to be. He said so himself (again I assume Dumbeldore won't lie to Harry). He realized his mistake when "Moody" carried Harry away. Dumbledore knows an awful lot and is controlling an awful lot behind the scenes I have no doubt. But he doesn't know everything. Now SNAP being Omniscient is a joke! That behavior of his in PoA was NOT an act! And Lumpin being evil is definately not even possible. He is a member of the Order of the Phoenix I bet and is very well trusted by (Omniscient) Dumbledore. Huggs the REALLY Omniscient Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 14 21:29:06 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:29:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Potters? References: Message-ID: <004e01c31a5f$da259fe0$9e9d253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57879 Peter wrote: We know that James already had money but have we really been clear on what He or Lilly were doing career wise? Weren't they part of the "old-crowd" and if so, weren't they working to defeat V? (In an Auror like capacity?) Couldn't that be the reason that they were targetted? Me (Izaskun): Well, in that case, James and Lilly would be targetted, but it doesn't explain why he wanted to kill Harry, and why he didn't need to kill Lilly in the first place. I think it has to do with Trelawney's first prediction. Whatever it was. And I think it involved a Potter being the downfall of Voldemort. That's why I think he tried to kill James and Harry. CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Wed May 14 21:08:13 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:08:13 -0000 Subject: Aging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57880 Christine: Witches and wizards hit puberty around the same time as muggles, and also live about twice as long. So my question is, if they live twice as long, shouldn't their bodies take twice as long to mature/get old/whatever as Muggles' bodies? And if they don't (as I suspect they don't b/c both hit puberty at the same time), then do they age exactly like Muggles until they're 90 or so and then just stay in the 90-year-old body? Or do they look 150 when they're 150? Me(Bill): I have always thought that they aged at the same rate as Muggles until physical maturity (say, 18 years old), and then age at half the rate as Muggles from then on. For example, Dumbledore is 150, but would be physically similar to a Muggle age of 18 + (150 - 18)/2 = 84 years old. While McGonnigall is 'a spritely 70', which would work out to a Muggle age of 18 + (70 - 18)/2 = 44 years old. And Sirius, Remus, Snape et al are about 36 in GoF, which would work out to a Muggle age of 18 + (36 - 18)/2 = 27 years old. Alan Rickman is WAY too old to play Severus Snape, and Maggie Smith is again, far too old to play Minerva McGonnigall. Bill From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 14 21:41:33 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:41:33 +0200 Subject: Stone Defenses WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes References: Message-ID: <006201c31a61$97a9e6b0$9e9d253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 57881 bboy_mn wrote: The Quirrel exception - I think Quirrel knew the 'backdoor' to most of the challenges. That is, he got around them without actually confronting the challenge, either by knowing how to by-pass it, or in the case of the Riddle of the Potions, knowing the answer in advance. I think he knew how to avoid the Devil's Snare, I think he knew exactly what key he was looking for, I think he by-passed the chess game altogether, and I think he knew which potion bottle to drink from without solving the riddle. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Me (Izaskun): I totally and utterly agree with you. And to those who don't agree, who think that the challenges and protections were too easy, just a question. If it was indeed so easy, why didn't Quirrell try to steal the stone before?? Anytime would have do. No. He didn't try to steal it before because he didn't have all the information. He needed to find out first all the protections and challenges he would face and how to pass them. Cheers, IZaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From truebeliever60 at hotmail.com Wed May 14 19:34:41 2003 From: truebeliever60 at hotmail.com (truebeliever60) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:34:41 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57882 Peter Said: > Weren't they part of the "old-crowd" and if so, weren't they >working to defeat V? (In an Auror like capacity?) Couldn't that be >the reason that they were targetted? That is truly an intruiging possibilty. Were Lily and James aurors? It seems likely. Didn't Hagrid list them as those who "stood up" to the Dark Lord (PS/SS 55)? How else does someone stand up to Voldemort besides being an auror? Hagrid also seems to think that Lily and James were very powerful, and likely candidates for being recruited by Voldemort if they hadn't been so loyal to Dumbledore. Of course, we will just have to wait and see, but not much longer now, as it is rumored we will find out about Lily's profession in OoP. I don't know if I can wait that long.... Tim From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 21:31:43 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:31:43 -0000 Subject: Aging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57883 Christine asked: > So my question is, if they live twice as long, shouldn't their > bodies take twice as long to mature/get old/whatever as Muggles' > bodies? And if they don't (as I suspect they don't b/c both hit > puberty at the same time), then do they age exactly like Muggles > until they're 90 or so and then just stay in the 90-year-old body? > Or do they look 150 when they're 150? Now me: Well, we don't know for sure, but here's what we have to go on: When Harry goes back in time through Riddle's diary, he sees "...a tall wizard with long, sweeping auburn hair and beard...Harry gaped at the wizard. He was none other than a fifty-year-younger Dumbledore." (CoS, Ch. 13) So since Dumbledore is currently 150 years old (according to a JKR interview), this would mean that at 100 years of age he still had auburn hair. But when Harry falls into the Pensieve at the time of Karkaroff's trial: "Yet it couldn't be that long ago...the Dumbledore sitting next to him now was silver-haired, just like the present-day Dumbledore." (Ch. 30, GoF). This trial is apparently soon after Voldemort's fall, which would have been about 13 years prior, or when Dumbledore was around 137 years old. Which suggests that Dumbledore's silver hair appeared somewhere between 100 and 137. Ch. 30 GoF also states that Harry observed at Karkaroff's trial: "Unlike Dumbledore, Karkaroff looked much younger; his hair and goatee were black." Unfortunately, since we don't know Karkaroff's age, it's hard to deduce much from this other than the fact that he aged considerably in the past 13 years. Although the stress of being a Voldemort traitor could have been a driving force in his recent aging. ~Phyllis From rstephens at northwestern.edu Wed May 14 20:40:53 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:40:53 -0000 Subject: Aging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57884 Good questions Christine. Here are my thoughts: 1) I agree that having to wear clothing under one's graduation gown is no fun, but congrats on graduating (I am in June). 2) My theory on the aging thing is that wizard's bodies (not necessarily their hormones) age more slowly. I guess what I mean is that they mature at the same pace as humans during puberty, but their time on earth takes less of a toll on them than it does on humans. Thus, wizards when they're older are still "young at heart." Prof. McGonagall, for example, is something like 80 (right?), but a human who meets her would not think her to be that aged. Furthermore, the afflictions that start to creep up on say, muggle men over 50, don't start effecting wizard men until later (i.e. heart problems, etc.). Does this make any sense? 3) Your aging question spurred some thoughts on Molly Weasley. Although we are not certain of the her age or her children's, her kids are spaced quite far apart. I wonder if wizard women can have children more easily later in life (post-40) than muggle women because of this slower aging process. Consequently, are the sex lives (gasp! but his is HP for grown-ups) of wizards and witches longer than our own as well? If so, we mere muggles can only be jealous. Enough of my theorizing, but Christine you brought up a topic I had never wondered about. Kudos. rach From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed May 14 17:28:45 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape: ropes from his hands In-Reply-To: <003d01c319cc$25ad6810$10ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030514172845.48102.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57885 > The only bit of wandless magic I see Snape do here > is summon the rope ends > to his hands. I don't see this as anything more > extravagant than anything > else that has been done without a wand. It's not that as much as Snape does not utter a single word to make any of that happen. Now, correct me if I'm wrong now, but doesn't Hermione parrot Flitwick in the first book that wizard need word and wand to do magic? Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca Wed May 14 22:47:32 2003 From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (Eileen) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TBAY: The Evil That is Crouch Sr. -- "It's Getting Hot In Here!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514224732.39092.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57886 "Power is sexy," announces Cindy. "I have to give you that. Crouch did try to undo his evil deeds outside the Forbidden Forest. He probably thought he was doing the right thing at all times, fighting evil with evil and all. So, I'm converting." There is a long silence. "What's in that Gatorade bottle?" asks Pippin acidly. " Now, I'm not going anywhere near that foul little Winky/Crouch Sr. ship you've got going with Elkins, though. You can forget that." "That *I've* got going with Elkins? I'm the only one who's ever argued against that foul little ship! I even tried to fit the non-ship version into the Crouch family themes and all that. Where were you?" "Selling Rookwood thongs, I think," says Cindy amiably. "Hey! We can sell CRABCUSTARD cups at our new joint booth. Why don't you pass me one of those delicious little cups?" "You do know, Cindy," says Eileen tremblingly, "that no one has touched one of those in plain sight of list. Not even me." "Hand it over!" Pippin and Becky gag. Eileen pretends to be very interested in something on the wall. "Delicious!" pronounces Cindy. "Everyone needs to try one. "I think I have to be going," says Pippin. "There's a Bloodsuckers Anonymous meeting at nine, and I'm hoping to catch Snape there." "You're both nutters," says Becky to Cindy and Eileen. "I personally think he was very evil. It's all that coldness and cruelty." "I'm new to this Crouch apologetics stuff," says Cindy to Eileen. "What's our line on coldness and cruelty? That it's really quite sexy?" "Well, it depends..." begins Eileen "Oh right, Comfort-Hurt..." "But while I admit that he's guilty enough coldness and cruelty, I'm not sure he's guilty as charged by Becky." "But look at him at the QWC!" says Becky. "Look at the totally cold and cruel way he destroyed the life of his house-elf Winky who was quilty of absolutely nothing except being in a situation beyond her ability to control (thanks to Crouch)." "Now, wait a second!" says Eileen. "Whose stupid idea was it to take Barty Jr. to the QWC in the first place?" "Crouch Sr.'s subconscious mind, right?" says Cindy. "I'm sure there was something about this in the Crouch novenna." "Wellll... anyway, Winky was lobbying pretty hard to have Barty Jr. attend his Quidditch game. And Winky *did* fail Crouch. She didn't keep an eye on him in the main box. For all she could have known, Barty Jr. could have taken a fancy to toss Harry out of the Top Box, and she was covering her eyes? Relying on the Imperius Curse when she was supposed to be watching him every minute? And then, she lost control of him that evening. She had failed Crouch." "That's not why he sacked her!" says Becky, her eyes blazing. "No, that was a carefully planned sacrifice. He exchanged her for the safety of his son... and himself. Sounds familiar? It's heartbreaking..." "Didn't break his heart!" says Becky. "It wasn't just his actions but that he had absolutely no emotional sympathy or empathy at all for Winky who had served him faithfully so long." "No emotional sympathy or empathy?" says Eileen. "Well now, I've got Elkins here. Part Nine of the Crouch Novenna: "When I read a character described like Crouch is described at the QWC, 'his face somehow sharpened, each line upon it more deeply etched,' I assume that person really is suffering quite badly, no matter how little pity he may have in his gaze. That's a physical description of a man in pain." "The Novenna," says Eileen with some satisfaction, "Is the best thing that's ever happened to Crouch apologetics." "But the novenna's thesis is that Crouch is the personification of the Dementor's Kiss!" objects Cindy. "Yeah, but it demolishes all the usual attacks on Crouch," says Eileen. "It was indicated that he really never gave his son any love at all and that is as large a component in what turned him into a DE as anything," says Becky. "It was only for his wife, who was mentioned someplace (where?) as being the only person he ever loved that brought him to rescuing his son. It wasn't for Junior's sake at all really." "My mother saved me," says Cindy slowly. "Exactly," says Eileen. "My Mother Saved Me" and "Last Orders" - Parts 5 and 6 of the Crouch Novenna (Posts 47927 and onwards). You probably love them, Becky. After all "My Mother Saved Me" begins *************************************** "Crouch had been serving the forces of evil his entire life," Elkins states, from up high on her pale hobby horse. "He really *was* Ever So Evil, you know." *************************************** "But," says Eileen. "She rather demolishes the theory that Crouch Sr. didn't love his son, and that he only rescued Barty Jr. as a favour to his wife. Unless someone has anything to say to Elkins's argument..." "I have something to say," comes a voice from the shadows. Eileen spins around. "THE Barb?" she says. "In TBAY?" "Only as you're writing it," says Barb. "Well, I'm honoured to have you here anyway," says Eileen. "And if I've inconvenienced either you or Becky in either way, it's just I can't help but TBAY my Crouch posts." "It's pretty clear," says Barb. "That Crouch thinks that he's protecting other people still when he does things to protect his own career." Eileen grins happily. "Yes! Yes! That's exactly it!" "In the end," continues Barb. "It was not Crouch's cruelty but his capacity to risk his job for his family members that led to his son being able to assist Voldemort in coming back. It was good intentions that led to the tragedy; if Crouch had remained implacable and unmoved in the face of his wife's sorrow and his son's possible innocence, he could have been accused of behaving like a cruel martinet--but one who wasn't in danger of unwittingly loosing a dangerous criminal on the world. Perhaps Crouch, Sr. actually has more in common with Harry than we'd like to admit." "Hey! Well, I'm ready to admit it," says Eileen. "Let's go out for drinks. Cindy's conversion really deserves a celebration." Eileen ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 21:32:24 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: <20030514172037.96296.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030514213224.14350.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57887 > --- darrin wrote: > > Idea 1: Just Good Business > > > > Maybe the Potters were becoming dangerous. > > Lynn: > > Let's not forget that Malfoy made a comment in > CoS (p. 248, UK) that the Potters were meddlesome > fools. Even if the Potters were becoming dangerous, they couldn't have done anything while they were under the Fidelius (sp??) Charm. They would have been out of the way of Voldemort. Anyone that was making trouble for Voldemort would have been called 'meddlesom fools', so I don't think that had anything to do with it. Another thing, like before, what made them so special? I don't have anymore theories on that, but I have the question, why did Voldemort _apparently_ go to the home alone. Even if there was someone(s) else there, why did he not let them do the work to prove their loyalties? Maybe the Potters were better than first made to appear. But then that raises the question, why were two more than qualified wizard and witch able to be taken down so easily. If they were that good, Lily should have stood with James why they dueled Voldie. They may still have been defeated, but they would have gotten in some good licks as well, and that would have also been better protection for Harry instead of the one on one that Lily tried to pull. My two cents Chris ME: Well one thing as others have pointed out, there is no certainty that Voldemort was alone when he attacked. Also, if the Potter's were taken by surprise it is highly likely they didn't have time to organize a unified defense. It seems interesting that the first thought they seemed to have was to protect Harry (although we don't know for sure how it went down). I REALLY believe Harry was the main target although as a strong wizard himself in the "enemy" camp, taking out James was also a very good idea. But was killing Harry Voldemort's main purpose for the visit? And did the Potter's know it? Maybe. Maybe that's why they went into hiding in the first place. As for the Fidelius charm, remember that it can be resisted. Harry has proven that as just a boy (although a very capable boy). It may have been useless to try casting that on James Potter. Also can you really be worried about that trying to cast that spell on somebody and hope it works when you have two opponents plus goodness knows who else may show up at anytime? I would guess Voldemort would have prefered just to kill and kill quickly. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Wed May 14 21:50:17 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:50:17 -0000 Subject: ANOTHER Crazy 5th Person @ Godrics Hollow Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57888 Colleen Wrote: >Okay, I know it's a stretch, but we know that there is sometimes >truth in Harry's dreams, but that they're not always completely >accurate. I think Snape went there to help save them all, and >that's how he proved his loyalty to Dumbldore. Maybe because he >loved Lily, maybe because he was trying to redeem himself after >having been a death eater... >What do you guys think??? ME: I've wondered about that myself. If there was indeed a fifth person that night at Godric Hollow, my bet is that was either Snape or Remus Lupin. If your theory regarding Snape being there is true, I would guess that Snape had gone over to Dumbledore's side and was spying for him long before Voldemort's downfall. Snape's going to defend the Potters would be the last in a list of actions that would lead Dumbledore to trust Snape implicitly, enough so that he let him have a job as not only a teacher, but the head of an entire House at Hogwarts. We all know that Dumbledore is very trusting, but I doubt that even he would put a former Death Eater in a position to influence so many young minds unless said Death Eater had performed some extraordinary actions to proove his loyalty and integrity. I think Snape going to defend the Potters against Voldemort when such an action could well have cost him his life would qualify as the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape to the extent that he does. I could be way off however. I can't decide :-) - Joe S. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 14 23:39:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:39:23 -0000 Subject: Time Turner operation In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030514111429.0096a7f0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum wrote: > ...edited... > > At 23:47 13/05/03 , Steve wrote: > > > > > We know magic can be modified by intend, or, perhaps more > > correctly, our observations of events in the story would seem to > > imply that, and it is a popular theory. > > > >So I speculate that the magic of the Time Turner was modified by > >Hermione intent. She knew that the place she needed to be if she > > was going to effectively help, was the entrance hall. So she > > coupled the changing in time of the Time Turner with her desire > >to be in another more effective location. GulPlum reponds: > > Surely the most effective location at which to "drop" Harry & > Hermione would have been the edge of the Forest? > bboy_mn: Sure it is, if you have the luxury of a long leasurely strategic analysis of the situation. Hermione on the other hand had the idea thrust upon her and was under pressure to act immediately. Under pressure to act before she even knew what she was going to do. Given her haste, and the point in time she was returning to, her first thoughts could have very easily been the Entrance Hall. Once at the Entrance Hall and safely in the closet, she had time to reflect, discuss with Harry, and come up with a plan of action. That plan of action told her, she needed to wait in the forest. But without the plan of action, I'm not sure she knew the best place to be, but she certainly knew it wasn't the hospital wing. All I said, is that her intent might have put her in a more effective place, no implication that that was the MOST effective place to be. Let me see if I understand 'Close Enough'. At the point in time 3 hours prior to being in the hospital room, the original Hermione was in or near the Entrance Hall, therefore, the Time Turner moved TT!Hermione to the same general vicinity, but NOT to the exact same location. Other examples, H/R/H climb the stairs. Harry and Ron turn back to look and Hermione is suddenly at the bottom of the stairs (the short version). Except, Hermione didn't time turn into the location at the bottom of the stairs, she time turned OUT of the location at the top of the stairs, and presumably, through her intent to be in a location, ended up near the classroom for her next (actually alternate) previous class. She ran from the alternate previous class to the location at the bottom of the stairs. > > Harry's intent appears to be irrelevant as he is taken completely by > surprise in all respects. > bboy_mn: Exactly right, Harry had no intention because he didn't know what the heck was going on. He was just along for the ride. Although, if he had been in a position to have formed some alternate intent, it certainly could have interferred with Hermione's intent. > I therefore submit that the only rational explanation without > inducing or inferring facts not stated in canon is my "close enough" > theory (thanks for the name, Darrin). :-) > bboy_mn: We see Hermione appear near locations where she has just been, but you can only induce and infer why she appeared in those locations. Whether those induction and inferences lead you to 'close enough' or 'magical intent', they are none the less both based on deductions and inferences not stated as fact. > ...edited... The "close enough" theory is fully consistent with all > known uses of the Time Turner and the application of Occam's Razor. > > -- > GulPlum AKA Richard, who has to rush off but will be back bboy_mn: 'All know uses' prior to the rescue attempt, all occur within the confinds and context of school where all students are frequently and repeatedly seen in the same locations at the same time. Well, when I say 'at the same time', of course, I only mean one instance of a given individual at a time. So since all prior uses of the Time Turner occur between classes, where else would we expect to see Hermione except in the halls between classes with all the other students? The nature of the context, dictates that there is no other logical place for her to be. Her presents, doesn't necessarily imply any inherent aspect of the internal workings of the Time Turner. As far as Occam's Razor, I don't see 'Magical Intent' as all that complicated a solution to the problem. Also, I'm not demanding that my solution is THE solution, I just wanted to remind people that 'magical intent' can modify the effects of charms, spells, curses, and some other magic. Just want people to add that to their data banks as they analysed the possibilities. But then who really knows. bboy_mn From steinber at zahav.net.il Wed May 14 23:09:52 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:09:52 +0200 Subject: Adopted!Harry- the continuation/ How to defeat V. Message-ID: <003f01c31a72$63734b00$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 57890 Sorry that Time Turning Turns some people off. The rest of my theory involves more TT, but this part follows the standard "can't change the past" approach. In brief: Harry is 18, V is gone, and he's about to consider a peaceful life in the future when D tells him that back when he was 1 yr old, his 18-yr-old self had appeared at Godric's Hollow (5th person) and had blocked the AK, wraithing V and dying in the process. Now (year 7), Harry has a choice: he can go back 17 years to maintain the time-line, save his infant self, and allow his infant self to grow up to defeat V at age 18 - but now Harry will have to die - or he can stay put at age 18, which would change the time-line because 18-yr-old Harry wouldn't be there to save infant Harry. Would infant Harry die? Would V become a wraith? Would V take over the world instead? Would anyone ever defeat V in the end? No one would be able to say for sure how the time-line would reshuffle itself if Harry didn't volunteer to go back and save himself. Maybe Harry will just evaporate and the world will now be in the 17th year of V's dominion. Maybe some other scenario altogether. What does Harry choose? Essentially, he has to decide whether the 18 years he's had so far have been meaningful enough to justify dying at 18 to ensure that those 18 years will have happened. I propose that JKR will present the dilemma so that the reader has to answer that question, too. Were the seven books we will have read so wonderful that we wish Harry to allow himself to die in order to ensure that he lived as an infant and gave us the satisfaction we had in reading about him? Or will we say that, fun as following Harry was for us, he should allow the time-line to be altered for the chance of living longer, even though the likelihood is that Harry will never have been? Will JKR then give us one epilogue, or two? The Admiring Skeptic P.S. My personal preference for defeating V is to trap him in the Mirror of Erised, the way the stone was, and then to destroy the mirror. It would have the poetic justice of the Prince of Desire being defeated in the very seat of desire. Harry could do the trapping and someone else could do the mirror-breaking, for those who prefer. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clam at uol.com.br Wed May 14 23:45:27 2003 From: clam at uol.com.br (Gomes Moor) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:45:27 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an interp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > darrin burnett wrote: > > To speculate that D-Dore needed Harry to realize the gift is to > > speculate that D-Dore knew Harry would end up opening the Chamber of > > Secrets. I really don't know about that... too much OmniDumbledore to > > me. Grey Wolf wrote: > No, only that Harry *might* be the one to find the entrance. Or at least stop the > monster. And all that needs is Dumbledore knowing about the chamber - which he > knows-, Riddle's parselmouth -which he knows- and maybe the basilisk -which he > might know. And of course, add all up together. And Since Hermione could put it all > together in six months, Dumbledore has had more than enough time in 50 years, I > think. Me (Gomes Moor): I think I'm falling for Magic Dishwasher. I want to be convinced. I think it's the only theory that can fill some major plot holes. But I'm also a skeptic by nature, and I have many doubts. For instance, if Dumbledore knows about the chamber, the basilisk and that Harry is a parselmouth, why did he let things get so far out of hand, risking the life of his students? Gomes Moor From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 15 00:35:08 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:35:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: avada kedavra References: Message-ID: <002101c31a79$d6f08dc0$9bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57892 Greicy wrote > > I believe Voldemort is completely stupid. He's planning this "I'm > Going To Kill Harry Once and For All" plan and not thinking fulling > about the consequences and side effects. Voldemort has become > maniacal in his quest, he's not focusing at all. Isn't this the > case for all Evil characters? They focus so much on one thing that > they forget about everything else. > The DE's have to see through him, though. I reread GoF not too long ago, and I actually found myself in awe at how well V works the DE's. Let's break down just what he does, with a recap and analysis. First, he proclaims they are united under the Dark Mark, then proceeds to question whether they really are, playing upon the guilt he believes they feel by accusing them of not trying to look for him and doubting that he had lived. He lays this on as thick as he can until one of the DE's, Avery, breaks, falls on his knees, and begs forgiveness. V proceeds to punish Avery by using Cruciatus. He then tells all of them that he won't forgive them until he gets thirteen years' repayment from them. In essence, he makes them feel bad about being free and not helping him, and shows them all what he could do to them if he chose. He puts fear into them. He then turns to Wormtail, goes on about how worthless he is, but points out that Wormtail did help him return to his body, so rewards him by giving him the silver hand. Wormtail scurries over to kiss V's robes, and V gets Wormtail to say he'll never let his loyalty waver again. Nice way to follow up Avery's torture. He quickly establishes a clear message: they all deserve to be tortured at the very least for their unfaithfulness, but if they try to mend their ways, he will reward them. By giving Wormtail the hand and sparing Avery's life (and everyone else the Cruciatus Curse), he also shows that he can be merciful even to those who don't deserve it. He then speaks to Lucius, berates him for not looking for him, and cuts through Lucius's bull, telling him straight out his service has been unsatisfactory and he'd better shape up. This tells the rest of them that he does not accept excuses, sees through them, and they won't cut it with him. Again, he is showing mercy by more or less giving Lucius a slap on the hand. The next ones he talks about are the Lestranges. He essentially tells them what they could have done to show their loyalty, and promises great rewards to them (and, so they will assume, to any other follower who is faithful). In this same bit, he starts hyping the great army he's going to mass and all the allies he's planning to get. Building on their dreams of ambition and conquest. Next, he wanders the circle and talks to certain other DE's. In these exchanges, he reiterates his earlier messages: he expects them to do better, and if they serve him well, he will give them what they want (Macnair getting better victims than dangerous beasts). V then stops before the huge gap and talks about the six. I believe mentioning the three dead DE's is a subtle message to the rest that dying in his service is a glorious thing. Then we come to the coward and the one he believes had left him forever. He can't get much clearer than he does on what the penalty is for cowardice and betrayal. Finally, Voldemort spends the next few pages telling about what happened to him between Halloween '81 and the present day, all the time throwing jabs at his unfaithful DE's and praising his faithful servant that helped him and is now at Hogwarts, and promises of the wondrous things that are to come. Pretty much, Voldemort pulls them back into his web quickly and efficiently by playing every card he can to motivate them to be even more loyal and faithful than they were in the past, promising huge rewards to those who prove themselves and help him, and retribution/punishment to those who are found wanting in his service. My recap does not really do what V does justice, IMO. V is an extremely skilled manipulator who knows how to work a crowd. I think it'll be hard for the majority of them to break free of his web. One thing that could go against him is the lack of reward. Right now, what he is promising is rather vague and nebulous. More victims (presumably Muggle-borns and their sympathizers), honor beyond one's dreams (the Lestranges). A DE could get sick of all these vague promises of rewards that are always coming but never quite here yet. Or they could overcome their fear of what could happen to them if they go against Voldemort. There is also room for them to wonder at how powerful Voldemort is because he has failed to kill Harry at least three times. But currently, I don't see much indication to make me think the DE's are going to look at Voldemort and think he is focusing strictly on killing Harry Potter. He tells them he is still interested in conquest and taking out Muggle-borns. He mentions that he plans to pursue immortality once again, something that was always high on his list of priorities. Yes, Harry is on their list of targets, and the DE's know he's rather highly placed, but that's different than them believing V is obsessed with killing Harry to the exclusion of all else. > Do you guys think that maybe the DE's will turn against Voldemort > because all he cares about is killing Harry? Wasn't his main > concern at some point taking over the WW, killing Mudbloods; > Mudblood sympathizers; and anti-Voldemortists? As I said above, I think they still see those to be his main concerns. Killing Harry is now just added to the list, perhaps taking the place of his parents in the last war. After all, V did go to extraordinary lengths to take out the Potters, as we've seen in different posts lately. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu May 15 01:14:39 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:14:39 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an interp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57893 Gomes Moor wrote: > Me (Gomes Moor): > I think I'm falling for Magic Dishwasher. I want to be convinced. I > think it's the only theory that can fill some major plot holes. But > I'm also a skeptic by nature, and I have many doubts. For instance, > if Dumbledore knows about the chamber, the basilisk and that Harry is > a parselmouth, why did he let things get so far out of hand, risking > the life of his students? > > Gomes Moor Dumbledore, according to MD, knows that the chamber exists, not where to find it, and knows that monster is a basilisk, but not how it moves around the castle. This isn't Dumbledore's plan. He couldn't stop it 50 years ago, and he cannot stop it now, because he is looking for a needle in a haystack. He knows Voldemort has to be involved, but doesn't know how. And just how Darrin and I were discussing, Dumbledore isn't going to force a 12 year old into anything. If Harry wants to get involved, it has to be his decision. Dumbledore takes as many measures as possible to find the basilisk and protect the students, and I asume he made enquiries of his own, but he was missing a key piece - hearing the voice in the walls. In short, he doesn't "allow" things to get out of hand. He isn't omniscient - he knows what is going on in general (i.e. there's a basilisk in the chamber of secrets) but none of the details. In effect, he has been pushed into a corner, just as it happened 50 years ago (even if the basilisk itself seems to be morally against killing except by accident - see posts about that in the archives). MD states that Dumbledore didn't see this one coming any more than he saw the Portkey!Cup twist in GoF. He could, of course, hope that Harry would find a way to stop the basilisk, and he tries to provided asistance as much as possible (assistance that Harry rejects, remember), but won't override Harry's right to make his own decisions. It is still suspicious, as always, that Harry is introduced to the most useful thing in a fight against a basilisk - the phoenix, with his ability to fight it, the intelligence to peck out the eyes and the tears to cure the venom. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who will gladly welcome Gomes to the MD comunity if he decides to join it From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 15 00:42:55 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:42:55 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin wasRe: Dumbledore, Snape and Harry with a side of MD In-Reply-To: <20030514201922.61553.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: >> And Lupin being evil is definitely not even possible. He is a member of the Order of the Phoenix I bet and is very well trusted by (Omniscient) Dumbledore. << Impossible? Why? Because Dumbledore trusts him? Lupin's own friends thought he was the spy. I can't believe it was solely because he is a werewolf. Pippin From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 15 01:01:08 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:01:08 -0000 Subject: Time Turner operation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57895 > bboy_mn: > Sure it is, if you have the luxury of a long leasurely strategic > analysis of the situation. Hermione on the other hand had the idea > thrust upon her and was under pressure to act immediately. Under > pressure to act before she even knew what she was going to do. > Hermione, according to canon, didn't fully grasp what they were supposed to be doing. It is Harry, there in the closet, who grasps what D-Dore meant by "save more than one innocent life." Hermione follows up by saying, "If we can accomplish that without being seen, it'll be a miracle." Now, Hermione knew to go back in time, and Harry didn't have a clue. But Hermione wasn't sure what to do when they arrived three hours back. So, if she was directing magically where the TT was supposed to land them, right near a closet to talk things over is as good as any place, and certainly better than the Forest. > bboy_mn: > > As far as Occam's Razor, I don't see 'Magical Intent' as all that > complicated a solution to the problem. > Actually, I think it answers other problems. Say Hermione used the TT in the hallway, as students were shuffling out of class. She goes back one hour, as students are shuffling INTO class. By being able to direct the thing, she is able to land somewhere out of sight of students, rather than just kind of "pop" appear. Remember, the TT is supposed to be a huge secret. She can't even tell Harry and Ron. Obviously, one could imagine limits on distances. Perhaps she couldn't, say, go back and hour and spend it in the Bahamas --- and then redo the hour over again at Hogwarts. Or maybe she could. Darrin -- Wonder if she had a tan during the year? From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu May 15 03:14:09 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:14:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Aging Message-ID: <5f.399017b9.2bf46001@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57896 erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com writes: > But when Harry falls into the Pensieve at the time of Karkaroff's > trial: "Yet it couldn't be that long ago...the Dumbledore sitting > next to him now was silver-haired, just like the present-day > Dumbledore." (Ch. 30, GoF). This trial is apparently soon after > Voldemort's fall, which would have been about 13 years prior, or when > Dumbledore was around 137 years old. Which suggests that > Dumbledore's silver hair appeared somewhere between 100 and 137. But the Pensieve contained Dumbledore's own thoughts. The "memory" of a person in such a thought would most likely be the person's self-image. While this generally means someone seeing themselves at their "peak" (younger, fitter, whatever), the Headmaster of Hogwarts may see himself as tall, silver-haired, and distinguished. All *other* people in the room would be viewed as DD remembered them, which is why Karkaroff appeared much younger. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 15 06:13:19 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:13:19 -0000 Subject: Aging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hphgrwlca" wrote: > ...edited... > > Witches and wizards hit puberty around the same time as muggles, and > also live about twice as long. So my question is, if they live twice > as long, shouldn't their bodies take twice as long to mature/get > old/whatever as Muggles' bodies? ...edited... > > I sure hope this makes sense. > > Any thoughts? bboy_mn: Growth to the end of puberty is a completely different phase of life than it is after puberty. A child's life is a life of growth and regeneration; new cells are created and old cell replaced very easily. Post-puberty however is a time of degenerations, a time of the wearing out of the body. So, I see no conflict in wizards having a normal rate of growth during childhood and adolescents, and a slowed rate of aging in their adult life. We know that wizards are very resilient. Hagrid expresses outrage that James and Lily could be killed in a car crash. Quidditch players take tremendous physical abuse during a game, and seem to come out of it very easily. Neville falls from 50 feet (or whatever) and does nothing but break his wrist. It takes a direct impact from a cannon ball (bludger) to break Harry's arm. Harry falls a substantial distance during a Quidditch match, so far that people watching even suspected serious injury or death, yet later he is in the hospital talking with his friends. All of which confirms that the adult wizards ability to resist injury and regenerate from injury is very strong, which support the reasonable belief that the aging or deterioration process is slowed. So again, I see no conflict in normal rate of childhood/adolescent development and slowed adult aging. Just a thought. bboy_mn From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 15 06:45:01 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:45:01 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57898 Becky Walkden wrote: >> And Lupin being evil is definitely not even possible. He is a >> member of the Order of the Phoenix I bet and is very well trusted >> by (Omniscient) Dumbledore. Pippin replied: > Impossible? Why? Because Dumbledore trusts him? Lupin's > own friends thought he was the spy. I can't believe it was solely > because he is a werewolf. Maria Alena: I agree with you, Pippin. While no one will ever convince me that Lupin is ESE, except canon, of course, I do think that Sirius and James had a very good reason to suspect Lupin of being a spy. The simplest explanation I can think of has to do with the fact that Lupin is a werewolf. It's very possible that Voldemort was recruiting werewolves as spies and/or DEs, tempting them with future work opportunities, for example. Since Lupin was suspected of being a spy, I'll go with the theory that Voldemort recruited werewolves as spies. This explanation does have a few problems, though. Werewolves are mistrusted as it is, it's hard to imagine that a large part of them would have access to important information. If it were also well known that Voldemort was recruiting them, they would be unable to acquire any intelligence whatsoever. Lupin's position as one of James's best friends probably set him apart from other werewolves. This means that, while Voldemort may not have targeted many werewolves, he certainly had a strong motive to target Lupin; and, from his perspective, there was a great chance that Lupin would have agreed to spy on James (living conditions etc). But then the whole Lupin Was Suspected Because All Werewolves Were Recruited doesn't work, since not many werewolves were recruited in the first place. I think I'd go with a different explanation - that Sirius saw Lupin in suspicious company, such as Lucius or Snape. It would be only natural for Sirius to suspect him then. And I'd like to mention that Lupin isn't a member of the Order of the Phoenix. That is not canon yet. He is a member of the "old crowd." Maria Alena, writing this at 1:45 in the morning and hoping all of this makes sense. PS - is there an Evil!Molly theory? She did buy Harry green robes, you know... From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Thu May 15 07:52:51 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: avada kedavra In-Reply-To: <002101c31a79$d6f08dc0$9bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030515075251.97223.qmail@web21204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57899 --- Kelly wrote: > There > is also room for them to wonder at how powerful > Voldemort is because he has > failed to kill Harry at least three times. Lynn: What you said here has brought up something I've been wondering about. Just how will what happened in GoF affect some of the DE's. First, they appear stunned that Harry was able to throw off the Imperius Curse. They stopped laughing. Then, they see that Harry wasn't killed but was able to battle Voldemort. What we don't know is how much they were able to see of what was happening inside the golden cage. Did they see that Harry's wand was able to force Voldemort's wand into what really amounts to submission by having it regurgitate the previous spells cast. Then, Harry is able to outrun the DE's, avoid their curses, perhaps stopped one or more of them himself and still had the presence of mind to escape when it looked like escape was hopeless. While it might not affect some, will it affect those who went with Voldemort because they believed he was the winning team? Using Wormtail as an example, will his allegiances change because he may now believe the greater power will be on the other side? Are there others who are only there because they thought that side was safest and are now rethinking this rationale? Or, will they write it off as a lucky break? But how often can one kid have a lucky break? How much doubt will Voldemort's boast raise? "'You see, I think, how foolish it was to suppose that this boy could ever have been stronger than me,' said Voldemort. 'But I want there to be no mistake in anybody's mind. Harry Potter escaped me by a lucky chance. And I am now going to prove my power by killing him, here and now, in front of you all, when there is no Dumbledore to help him, no mother to die for him. I will give him his chance. He will be allowed to fight, you and will be left in no doubt which of us is the stronger....'" (GoF, p. 571, UK) Will some DE's begin to wonder just who is stronger? How will they rationalize Harry's escape from death this time? Then again, I wonder about people who think it's okay to kill a baby and that it's fair duel for a 14 year old to battle a fully grown wizard. However, I bet they're still not laughing. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From lupinesque at yahoo.com Thu May 15 08:51:23 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:51:23 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57900 Pippin wrote: > > Lupin's > > own friends thought he was the spy. I can't believe it was solely > > because he is a werewolf. Maria Alena: > I agree with you, Pippin. While no one will ever convince me > that Lupin is ESE, except canon, of course, I do think that Sirius > and James had a very good reason to suspect Lupin of being a spy. The > simplest explanation I can think of has to do with the fact that > Lupin is a werewolf. It's very possible that Voldemort was recruiting > werewolves as spies and/or DEs, tempting them with future work > opportunities, for example. That makes sense, and I'd like to use it to shore up my even simpler explanation for why his friend (singular; the only one we know thought this was Sirius) thought he was the spy: because there seemed to be *someone* spying and it was someone very close to James and Lily. Why do we need to peer into Lupin's character in order to understand how he might fall under suspicion? In an atmosphere like Sirius describes in "Padfoot Returns," trust is thin on the ground. If the circle of friends consisted of MWPP (though it could well have been wider--we don't know), then by process of elimination, Sirius would reason, as far as he reasoned at all: -It's not me. -It's not Peter. I love him and all, but he's not exactly the brightest bulb on the tree. Who'd ask him to be a spy? He'd never be up to it. -Uh oh. That seems to leave Remus. Amy Z for the Society for Lupin's Unsullied Reputation Perpetuation -------------------------------------------------------- "Professor Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week, and weekends off," said Dobby . . . "but Dobby beat him down, miss." --HP and the Goblet of Fire -------------------------------------------------------- From stephandra84 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 08:31:18 2003 From: stephandra84 at yahoo.com (stephandra84) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:31:18 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin wasRe: Dumbledore, Snape and Harry with a side of MD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57901 Pippin Wrote: > Impossible? Why? Because Dumbledore trusts him? Lupin's > own friends thought he was the spy. I can't believe it was solely > because he is a werewolf. I believe that this conclusion was more by process of elimination. Sirius thought it was Remus who was the spy and vice versa, because both knew that it wasn't them and I think neither of them even considered Peter as a possibility simply because he was not as strong or as intelligent as the rest of his pals. I don't think the werewolf factored that much into it at all, mostly the fact that Sirius couldn't fathom Peter as betraying them, else he wouldn't have offered him the role of Secret Keeper. Stephandra A Newbie From maialaia at yahoo.com Thu May 15 08:56:02 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Siblings, Rockstars, Maiden Names, Steamrollers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030515085602.16661.qmail@web10406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57902 --- Ersatz Harry wrote:> > (4) With the exception of the Weasleys and the > Creevys, I can't think > of any instances where siblings of current Hogwarts > students are > named Well there are the Patils....mentioned several times... Back to music stuff: 1. Back to the rockstar thing. Are we assuming that rock has evolved about the same rate in the Wizarding World? 2. Is it just me or does "The HinkyPunks" sound like an 80s band? Other stuff: I've looked and looked - Is Molly Weasley's Maiden name ever mentioned? And finally: You know that game where if a bunch of kids are in sleeping bags or on a bed, one child yells "Steamroller!" and rolls over everyone else?!? What would you call it in the Wizarding World - seeing as how they have no steam rollers? ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From steinber at zahav.net.il Thu May 15 09:38:33 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:38:33 +0200 Subject: JKR's writing vs story Message-ID: <004301c31ac6$02e33f80$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 57903 I think it would be a nice change to have a thread going on JKR's writing, besides all the discussions of the details of the HP story. You can easily distinguish writing vs story by imagining what would happen if I were to rewrite the series in my own words. I know the story down to very great detail, and I don't suppose I'd leave anything out, but would anyone want to read it? The story is great, it's true, but it wouldn't sell millions of copies if it weren't written so well. What is it in the *writing* that sets HP apart? Here's another angle on writing vs story. Most litcrit rejects discussions of author intent because there's no way to know. But here we have a very interesting case where we can launch intent hypotheses and test them against the future books. For example, you could pick a possible symbol and hypothesize how it must develop if the symbolism is intended. If Fawkes symbolizes Hope, he'll be around till the end, but if he symbolizes Immortality, he'll probably die for good with V's fall. We could set up a long checklist of likely "author intent" issues to tick off as the books progress. For another angle, authors often have to choose between the needs of their characterizations, plots, settings, themes and so on, which often conflict. For example, does JKR usually choose theme over plot? Can we point to places where characterizations were compromised for setting? These are *writing* questions, not *story* questions. This list is surely full of litcrit and writing pros, students and amateurs who can weigh in intelligently on such subjects. And if anyone fears that the subjects are dry, well, so are pretzels, and people can munch on them for a long time. The Admiring Skeptic P.S. If this list is really the wrong place for such things, can someone steer me to the right one? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Thu May 15 10:26:01 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda Treantafel) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:26:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: E!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57904 Amy Z wrote: Sirius would reason, as far as he reasoned at all: -It's not me. -It's not Peter. I love him and all, but he's not exactly the brightest bulb on the tree. Who'd ask him to be a spy? He'd never be up to it. -Uh oh. That seems to leave Remus. Me(Linda): I agree that it is that simple. Actually, this theory has canon support in the shreiking shack scene. I'm at work so I don't have my books with me but the gist of the scene is Black and Lupin apologizing to each other for each thinking the other was the spy. Since Black isn't a werewolf, Lupin wouldn't have had that reason to suspect him. It just seems logical that they suspected each other (wrongly of course) for basically the same reason. - Linda From koticzka at wp.pl Wed May 14 17:48:37 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:48:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and morality References: <4.2.0.58.20030512184641.00977460@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <001f01c31abf$636ba2e0$3d104cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 57905 ----- Original Message ----- From: GulPlum To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 12:26 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and morality Harry has a perfectly viable actual, titular godfather, so this role is a bit of a shoe-in, governed by his role as a literary construct rather than an actual person within the books. But I'll gloss over that. Nevertheless, I do continue to wonder just why James left his Cloak in the care of someone other than Sirius: "... left in my possession *BEFORE* he died..." - emphasis mine; what reason did James have not to trust Sirius with the Cloak? And of course, we always assume that the Cloak came from Dumbledore. But what real proof of that do we have? I have a nagging suspicion at the back of my mind that there is someone *else* who is looking out for Harry, who is yet to be revealed to us. **** Koticzka: Perhaps the reason was the same as in the case of Fidelus Charm - it was too obvious and to risky? Just a couple of points on the point-giving at the end of PS/SS: as HH, a very bad move. Perhaps he's teaching the Slyths to accept disappointment, or, as some people have said, that earning points is more valuable than engineering having them taken away from others. The main lesson he's imparting is "I can be as fickle as the worst of you". As LFW, he's saying "the rules don't really count as long as we maintain allegiance to higher principles". Again, it's only as SP and LC that the scene makes sense, or is given moral validity, and that's what the text shows. I share the point of view and much more - "We live stereotypes" He - Dumbledore is passive pacifistic punk (colorful wire clothes...) - for me. And - forgive me this comparison... Jesus with waitng for another hit. If it was not for the points in PS/SS and some other actions of his. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Wed May 14 17:56:32 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:56:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality References: Message-ID: <002001c31abf$6797c060$3d104cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 57906 I must be boring, yet lots of people seem to promote a point of view which i would call "fuzzy ethics" or "fuzzy morality". As I have already mentioned "What is the difference between good and evil? When one takes my cows it is evil. When I take cows from someone - it is good." I give Dumbledore as a sample, but Harry's revange is much better... ----- Original Message ----- From: finwitch To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 9:58 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Morality --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" > I think I have > Here's one possibility, though I don't happen to agree with it: it is > ethical to kill someone who has, say, killed your parents. If we > accept this as an ethical principle (and maybe it's too narrow to fit > the definition of a principle), then we could construe Harry's killing > Voldemort as ethical but Draco's killing Voldemort as not. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 15 13:31:27 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:31:27 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57907 Amy, speaking for SLURP: Sirius) thought he was the spy: because there > seemed to be *someone* spying and it was someone very close to James and Lily. Why do we need to peer into Lupin's character in order to understand how he might fall under suspicion? In an atmosphere like Sirius describes in "Padfoot Returns," trust is thin on the ground. > If the circle of friends consisted of MWPP (though it could well have been wider--we don't know), then by process of elimination, Sirius would reason, as far as he reasoned at all: > > -It's not me. > -It's not Peter. I love him and all, but he's not exactly the > brightest bulb on the tree. Who'd ask him to be a spy? He'd never be up to it. > -Uh oh. That seems to leave Remus. The trouble with this reasoning is that it excludes James and Lily. They also must have believed that the spy had to be (or could have been, if the circle was wider) Lupin rather than Sirius...or why didn't *they* tell Lupin about the switch? Pippin From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu May 15 13:56:19 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:56:19 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Amy, speaking for SLURP: > > > If the circle of friends consisted of MWPP (though it could well > have been wider--we don't know), then by process of > elimination, Sirius would reason, as far as he reasoned at all: > > > > -It's not me. > > -It's not Peter. I love him and all, but he's not exactly the > > brightest bulb on the tree. Who'd ask him to be a spy? He'd > never be up to it. > > -Uh oh. That seems to leave Remus. > Then Pippin: > The trouble with this reasoning is that it excludes James and > Lily. They also must have believed that the spy had to be (or > could have been, if the circle was wider) Lupin rather than > Sirius...or why didn't *they* tell Lupin about the switch? If we're assuming that it was a small circle (MWPP+Lily), then I don't see a problem. I think canon supports that James and Sirius were so very close for so many years that of course James would never suspect Sirius. And, it's plausible to me that he and Sirius would have the same opinion of Peter's abilities, thus leaving Remus as the only one standing as a possible traitor. Granted, we don't know the thoughts of Lily in all of this. Did Lily have the same suspicions? Or did James and Sirius have to convince her that the probable traitor was Remus? Either way, she obviously didn't tell Remus about the switch, either. Marianne, holding out for Good!Lupin From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 15 13:50:21 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:50:21 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57909 > > -It's not me. > > -It's not Peter. I love him and all, but he's not exactly the > > brightest bulb on the tree. Who'd ask him to be a spy? He'd > never be up to it. > > -Uh oh. That seems to leave Remus. Pip: > > The trouble with this reasoning is that it excludes James and > Lily. They also must have believed that the spy had to be (or > could have been, if the circle was wider) Lupin rather than > Sirius...or why didn't *they* tell Lupin about the switch? > So Lupin wouldn't be vulnerable to capture and torture to reveal who the Secret Keeper was? The more people that know, the less chance it works, because V-Mort can just start pounding on people to find out who the Secret Keeper is. They trusted Sirius enough to make him the Secret Keeper, so the circle of knowledge is, at that point, James, Lily, Sirius and D- Dore, who gave evidence that Sirius was the Secret Keeper. (They probably did the spell themselves, or asked D-Dore to do it, but if not, then Flitwick or someone else skilled in charms is in on it too) Then, Sirius hit upon the Peter idea. We know he didn't tell Dumbledore about that. We don't know how the spell is made, but I'm assuming for the moment that James and Lily knew about the switch and that Sirius just couldn't transfer it to Peter without telling James and Lily. And surely he'd have gotten their OK to do that. Hopefully. Lupin just simply didn't need to know. Darrin -- Wish people shared their problems with me on a need-to-know basis. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 15 14:07:18 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:07:18 -0000 Subject: Stone Defenses WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > This Challenge as a protection is very common in the magical world. For example, it is common to let Sphinx guard treasures, but a Sphinx guards them with a riddle as we saw when Harry encountered the Sphinx in the GoF maze. So why would you have a guard/protection that would willingly allow a potential thief access to the treasure? Why? Because that's how magic minds think. This type of protection. protection by challenge or riddle, has a long history in lore, fable, myth, legend, > fantasy, etc.... I think Steve is on the right track here. The purpose of the challenges is to prove the mettle of anyone who seeks the Stone. Anyone possessing the common touch (to get the secret of how to pass Fluffy from Hagrid), courage, coolness under pressure, physical and mental agility, sacrifice, luck, logic and self-denial has the right to achieve the Stone. Physical maturity has nothing to do with it. Neither does magical prowess. Indiana Jones, with his bullwhip, torch and pistol, could have managed perfectly well. The sheer danger of the obstacles is beside the point, and except for the Mirror itself, probably illusory. Fluffy doesn't tear Snape's leg off, after all, and we don't know if there was really poison in *any* of the bottles. Dumbledore couldn't have known *when* Harry would go after the Stone. He may have thought it would be much later, when Harry had grown powerful enough to face Voldemort (who would have been trapped by his vision of immortality if he had looked into the Mirror.) Harry's intuition that Snape would be going after the stone that night had no basis in logic, besides being erroneous. Authorial machinations aside , it can only have arisen from the subconscious link between Harry's mind and Voldemort's. Pippin From bayoupup27 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 14:07:08 2003 From: bayoupup27 at yahoo.com (blue) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon for LV in Slytherin In-Reply-To: <1052747233.5360.44451.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030515140708.51924.qmail@web14305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57911 Has it been stated clearly somewhere that V. was a Slytherin, or have we just assumed it? Curiouser and curiouser. . . > > > > Lynda First, the whole theory of LV/HP as one time divided type entity is interesting, and somewhat mindboggling while yet making sense in a strange way. Second, it is canon that Riddle was in Slytherin: On page 99 of the U.S. Scholastic paperback of Sorcerer's Stone (the one with the cover of L.V. in the forest, not the quidditch scene): "And what are Slytherin and Hufflepuff?" "School houses. There's four. Everyone says Hufflepuff are a lot 'o duffers, but-" "I bet I'm in Hufflepuff," said Harry gloomily. "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. 'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You know who was one." According to COS, Hagrid went to Hogwarts with Riddle, thereby making him a reliable source, unlike Ron who seconds the Riddle in Slytherin information on the train to Hogwarts when Harry meets both Ron and Hermione. bluedragon ===== the bardic dragon of an azure color aim: imbludrgn http://www.bluedragonslair.com From catherinemck at hotmail.com Thu May 15 13:51:26 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:51:26 -0000 Subject: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57912 On the possible evil that is Lupin, speculation fluttered: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: > Becky Walkden wrote: > >> And Lupin being evil is definitely not even possible. He is a > >> member of the Order of the Phoenix I bet and is very well trusted > >> by (Omniscient) Dumbledore. > > Pippin replied: > > Impossible? Why? Because Dumbledore trusts him? Lupin's > > own friends thought he was the spy. I can't believe it was solely > > because he is a werewolf. > > Maria Alena: > I agree with you, Pippin. While no one will ever convince me > that Lupin is ESE, except canon, of course, I do think that Sirius > and James had a very good reason to suspect Lupin of being a spy. The > simplest explanation I can think of has to do with the fact that > Lupin is a werewolf. It's very possible that Voldemort was recruiting > werewolves as spies and/or DEs, tempting them with future work > opportunities, for example. Maria Alena then wondered: > PS - is there an Evil!Molly theory? She did buy Harry green robes, > you know... Me: There is now. Takes of shoes and prepares to jump in with both feet, possibly in the manner of Princess Margaret unwisely and about to get burnt... Oh, those green robes. One of the few slip-ups in Molly's otherwise well-camouflaged villainy, or perhaps, for we should surely give this more devious witch all possible credit for her subtleties, a little joke of her own concerning Harry's own inherent iffyness, designed to raise his fellow pupils' suspicions (why is this Gryffindor clad in Slytherin green?) and draw them away from thoughts that anyone but Harry might have sabotaged the competition. But is it canon? Is the evidence of Molly's evil more than circumstantial? I think it is. Her parenting skills have occasionally been derided, but that's not the issue here. However cosy her jumpers or inadequate her sandwiches, Molly Weasley is evil, Ever So Evil. Like Stuttering Quirrell, she hides it well, in her case behind a fa?ade of loving maternal devotion, but sometimes the hints just slip through on to the page. Back to the green robes. What day does she buy them? The day of the Quidditch World Cup. Arthur and the kids get up early, and the allegedly nonsporty Molly nips off to Diagon Alley. Did she wait for Bill, Charlie and Percy to get up, I doubt it. No, it was Floo powder in the fire and a race round the shops, grabbing the first thing that came to hand, hence Ron's manky robes. "Not a lot of choice" my foot! This woman is a knitting fanatic, she surely had time to unpick a bit of lace if she wanted to? But she didn't, because after her frantic shopping she apparated to the woods near the Q.W.C. stadium, the co-ordinates of which she was well-aware, as Percy at least probably discussed them loudly and often. Once there, she pulled out Harry's wand. Of course she had the wand. The one Harry had so carelessly left sticking out of his top pocket was a fake, product of Fred and George. Well, Molly knows all about Weasleys' Wizarding Wheezes, we even have the little scene in the kitchen to remind us, and the fake wand theme is reiterated in the scene with Bagman. Harry's fake!wand simply vanished after a couple of hours. Molly knew he wouldn't miss it, as with Arthur around Harry would have no reason to try any magic. Once in the woods, Molly is delighted to witness the torture of the Muggles that obsess her husband so much that his career is a joke and he never has any time for the family. Not that she lets the Muggle-torturers interfere with her own plans. Harry's wand in hand, the powerful witch performs the incantation. There is no indication that it was a man's voice, only that it was deeper than Winky's. Kath Bush's Wuthering Heights voice is deeper than Winky's. Nor it is a problem that the voice sounds like nothing the trio have ever heard before; they only know cosy fussy Molly. Evil!Molly sounds, naturally, just a bit different. She has time to disapparate before the Ministry wizards arrive, and put on a good show of being worried next morning. She?s there at every stage. She knows about the Tournament in time to lay her nefarious plans. She encourages her husband to ensure Fake!Moody gets off on a minor charge so that he can go to Hogwarts. She?s at the Third Task to check her servant (and fall guy) has got everything under control and to witness the triumph of her scheme. Yep, Barty Crouch Jnr is doing it all at the instigation of Molly who alone can promise what the neglected child yearns for; a little bit of mothering. She's brilliant, she's the last person anyone would ever suspect, she's powerful, cunning, she's Ever So Evil. Now we know why Dumbledore doesn't want Harry to stay at the start of the holidays at the end of the 4th year. He's starting to think something's up and needs time to investigate. He's got such a weakness for sweets, tho' and Molly's a good cook; I'm worried. "catherine mckiernan" From clam at uol.com.br Thu May 15 14:08:13 2003 From: clam at uol.com.br (Gomes Moor) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:08:13 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an interp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57913 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > Dumbledore, according to MD, knows that the chamber exists, not where > to find it, and knows that monster is a basilisk, but not how it moves > around the castle. This isn't Dumbledore's plan. He couldn't stop it 50 > years ago, and he cannot stop it now, because he is looking for a > needle in a haystack. He knows Voldemort has to be involved, but > doesn't know how. Me (Gomes Moor): Well, but I wonder: why didn't Dumbledore ask Moaning Myrtle? As you wrote: . And if he knew there was a basilisk inside, why didn't he take other measures to defeat it, like bringing more roosters to the castle? Gomes Moor From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 15:21:46 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] E!Lupin wasRe: Dumbledore, Snape and Harry with a side of MD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030515152146.36022.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57914 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: >> And Lupin being evil is definitely not even possible. He is a member of the Order of the Phoenix I bet and is very well trusted by (Omniscient) Dumbledore. << Impossible? Why? Because Dumbledore trusts him? Lupin's own friends thought he was the spy. I can't believe it was solely because he is a werewolf. Pippin Well they all knew that SOMEBODY was a spy. I got a sneaky suspicion that nobody was trusting anybody right around that time! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu May 15 16:23:15 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:23:15 -0000 Subject: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherinemckiernan" wrote: > She's brilliant, she's the last person anyone would ever suspect, > she's powerful, cunning, she's Ever So Evil. I must say that that was a nice summary of canon bits ("canon fodder"?) to support the Evil!Molly idea. Let me toss out one other -- Molly's attitude towards Percy compared to her other children. I haven't compiled a list by any means, but Molly is certainly critical of the twins many times, and I seem to recall her carrying on a bit at Ron, Bill, and Charlie about various things (e.g., the fang earring). I simply can't imagine that she would ever have sent Percy a Howler. Ginny does seem to go unscathed as far as I recall, though now you've got me wondering if Lucius perhaps had Molly as an ally when he slipped Riddle's diary into Ginny's book; perhaps we'll be adding Sacrificial!Ginny to the cast soon. But Percy is tolerated -- nay, praised -- by his mother a lot, certainly far more than by any of his siblings (and possibly his father). Perhaps it is part of Evil!Molly's plan to engineer Percy's rise through the ranks at the Ministry -- I won't be all that surprised if he somehow wangles Crouch's old job. From there it is a short step to getting Fudge out of the way (though I have to recall my anagram of Cornelius Fudge as Lucifer Segundo), and eventually Percy takes over MoM with help from Mom, emerging soon enough as Fascist!Percy. Ersatz Harry, who intends to come back to the War of the Roses thing when he gets some time to collect some canon fodder From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 15 16:24:35 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:24:35 -0500 Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... Message-ID: <20030515.112436.-465817.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57916 I was thinking about Salazar Slytherin and his left-behind basilisk last night. Now, on the surface, the explanation was that it was left behind so that one day, his True Heir could open the Chamber and rid the school of Muggle-borns and non-PureBloods. But, um, how was that supposed to work, exactly? 1. True Heir manages to lock all the Pure Bloods out of Hogwarts and all the Muggle-borns inside and then lets loose the basilisk to wreak havoc. Um, nah. For one thing, even if such a thing were even possible to do, how would anyone hope to get away with it? They'd get caught, and popped off to Azkaban (or whatever was around before Azkaban), and what would be the point? Yeah, it would get rid of a few years worth of student Muggle-borns, but they could always start coming back the next year. 2. True Heir hides in the bathroom on a regular basis, with the basilisk waiting by the door, straining his ear for the voices in the hall. Every time he hears the voice of someone he knows is a Muggle-born, he opens the door and lets the basilisk loose. Yikes! True Heir would be hiding in the bathroom an awful lot, taking a lot of chances of getting caught. And remember, the bathroom was *in use* up until a few decades ago, when Moaning Myrtle came back to roost after dying, then spending a few years haunting Olive Hornsby. So how's the Heir supposed to get in on a regular basis? (I'm also going with the assumption that SS was not only racist, he was sexist, and only a male would be a True Heir.) 2-Alternate: True Heir lures Muggle-borns one by one into the bathroom, then opens the Chamber and lets the basilisk loose. Yikes again - how's he going to get boys in there? Perhaps with the promise of a joke or prank, but even then, some boys would never fall for it. (Like Percy Weasley - far too uptight.) 3. The basilisk is charmed to only be able to harm/kill Muggle-borns, not Pure Bloods. Eh, maybe. Sooo..... thoughts, anything I missed, screwed up on, etc.? Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 16:51:25 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: THAT was a basilisk? In-Reply-To: <20030515.112436.-465817.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <20030515165125.72674.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57917 Now that somebody has mentioned the basilisk, I may be wrong but aren't basilisk's actually lizards and not snakes? I wonder what mythological animal book Ms. Rowlings got that basilisk snake from? Oh well. Snakes, lizards, at least their all reptiles. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 16:48:19 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030515164819.49189.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherinemckiernan" wrote: > She's brilliant, she's the last person anyone would ever suspect, > she's powerful, cunning, she's Ever So Evil. I must say that that was a nice summary of canon bits ("canon fodder"?) to support the Evil!Molly idea. Let me toss out one other -- Molly's attitude towards Percy compared to her other children. I haven't compiled a list by any means, but Molly is certainly critical of the twins many times, and I seem to recall her carrying on a bit at Ron, Bill, and Charlie about various things (e.g., the fang earring). I simply can't imagine that she would ever have sent Percy a Howler. Ginny does seem to go unscathed as far as I recall, though now you've got me wondering if Lucius perhaps had Molly as an ally when he slipped Riddle's diary into Ginny's book; perhaps we'll be adding Sacrificial!Ginny to the cast soon. But Percy is tolerated -- nay, praised -- by his mother a lot, certainly far more than by any of his siblings (and possibly his father). Perhaps it is part of Evil!Molly's plan to engineer Percy's rise through the ranks at the Ministry -- I won't be all that surprised if he somehow wangles Crouch's old job. From there it is a short step to getting Fudge out of the way (though I have to recall my anagram of Cornelius Fudge as Lucifer Segundo), and eventually Percy takes over MoM with help from Mom, emerging soon enough as Fascist!Percy. ME: Ever been a mother of a large clan on 6 highly active (and overactive) intelligent boys and one young girl? Believe me, you'll spend a WHOLE lot of time getting on people's cases. And I think cannon has shown us more of the confrontations then the loving relationships between Molly and her children so this Evil Molly is another thing I can't buy. The twins must drive her absolutely nuts at times! But while they may cringe at her anger, they are hardly afraid of her ("And you call yourself our mother!" said in jest first book) and seem to love her very much. And Percy? Well I doubt a mom would be real quick at seeing his faults and HE doesn't give her so many headaches and has achieved things that would make every mother proud. Nah, Evil Molly is another example of why we need to get busy reading the next book. It's been so long, our own hyperactive imaginations are getting the better of us. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu May 15 16:57:40 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:57:40 -0000 Subject: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherinemckiernan" wrote: > Harry's wand in hand, the powerful witch > performs the incantation. One problem: Moody/Crouch specifically tells Harry that he (M/C) summoned the Dark Mark. Sorry I missed that on the first go. Ersatz Harry From truebeliever60 at hotmail.com Thu May 15 16:33:43 2003 From: truebeliever60 at hotmail.com (truebeliever60) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:33:43 -0000 Subject: ANOTHER Crazy 5th Person @ Godrics Hollow Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57920 Joe S. said: >If your theory regarding Snape being there is true, I > would guess that Snape had gone over to Dumbledore's side and was > spying for him long before Voldemort's downfall. Snape's going to > defend the Potters would be the last in a list of actions that >would lead Dumbledore to trust Snape implicitly, enough so that he >let him have a job as not only a teacher, but the head of an entire >House at Hogwarts. We all know that Dumbledore is very trusting, but >I doubt that even he would put a former Death Eater in a position to > influence so many young minds unless said Death Eater had performed > some extraordinary actions to proove his loyalty and integrity. I have a certain problem with Snape having peformed vital public actions to prove himself, like defending the potters at Godric's Hollow. Wouldn't that betray him to Voldemort as a spy and traitor as well? No matter how much he wanted to save James and Lily, it would have been foolish to betray himself and lose any chance of future information gathering. No, my money is on Lupin, if there was a fifth person there at all. Not that Snape couldn't still have been the hero; his cover would be completely safe if he had alerted Dumbledore, who sent Lupin, or told Lupin himself what was going on. Snape is one of my favorite characters, which is why I think he is too cunnning to actually show up at Godric's Hollow that infamous night. Tim, waiting patiently for OoP From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu May 15 16:59:02 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:59:02 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an interp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57921 > > Grey Wolf: > > Dumbledore, according to MD, knows that the chamber exists, not > > where to find it, and knows that monster is a basilisk, but not > > how it moves around the castle. This isn't Dumbledore's plan. He > > couldn't stop it 50 years ago, and he cannot stop it now, > > because he is looking for a needle in a haystack. He knows > > Voldemort has to be involved, but doesn't know how. > > Me (Gomes Moor): > Well, but I wonder: why didn't Dumbledore ask Moaning Myrtle? As > you wrote: > Dumbledore has had more than enough time in 50 years>. Quite possibly Dumbledore *did* ask Moaning Myrtle. All she actually knew, however, was that she saw a pair of ' great big yellow eyes' as she came out of the toilet. [CoS p.223 Ch.16 UK paperback]. She knew the direction was near the sink. Notice that it is *Harry* (who speaks Parseltongue) who spots the snake symbol. It's entirely possible that only someone who spoke Parseltongue would ever see that symbol (Ron is never described as seeing it, or as looking at it). Dumbledore may well have figured out that it's possible that one entrance to the Chamber is in Moaning Myrtle's toilet. But he can never, ever find it. Professor Binns tells us: 'the school has been searched for evidence of such a chamber, by the most learned witches and wizards.' [CoS Ch. 9 pp.114 115]. It can only be found by someone who speaks Parseltongue. Gomes: > And if he knew there was a basilisk inside, why didn't he take > other measures to defeat it, like bringing more roosters to the > castle? Wrong question. What you should be asking is: 'why are there roosters at Hogwarts *at all*'? Figure it out. JKR estimates that there are 1000 pupils, there are certainly a minimum 400 or so pupils. How many eggs is that per day? Hogwarts doesn't need a hen coop. It needs a hen *farm* to supply its breakfast eggs. And its lunchtime eggs. And its teatime eggs. And the eggs in the cakes, and the puddings. I know JK Rowling OBE is bad at maths, but she has referred to Hagrid's vegetable patch as 'small' more than once. I think she's quite aware that Hogwarts doesn't grow its own food, and is trying to imply that Hagrid grows vegetables (and keeps chickens) as a hobby. This being so, why is there more than one rooster at Hogwarts? We know there was more than one, because Hagrid refers to 'second one killed this term' [Ch. 11 p.150]. But if it's a hobby coop, there is no need for more than one rooster (believe me, roosters are noisy little ... err ... fowls). If the coop really does supply all Hogwart's breakfast eggs, then we're asked to believe that Harry and Co. have never really noticed a thousand or more chickens ranging around the grounds. (Harry, Hermione and Ron decided to go and talk to Hagrid at his farm ...) So the fact that Hogwarts has *any* roosters at all (they really are noisy ... ) suggests that Dumbledore has put anti-basilisk protections in place. Tom Riddle, however, figured out how to handle the problem (send Ginny out to kill them, whilst keeping the basilisk away). Was rooster no. 2 the replacement rooster? We'll probably never know. Pip!Squeak From pegruppel at yahoo.com Thu May 15 17:26:43 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (pegruppel) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:26:43 -0000 Subject: That was a basilisk? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57922 Becky Walkden wrote: > > Now that somebody has mentioned the basilisk, I may be wrong but aren't basilisk's actually lizards and not snakes? I wonder what mythological animal book Ms. Rowlings got that basilisk snake from? Oh well. Snakes, lizards, at least their all reptiles. Huggs Becky > Me: Well, the *real* basilisk is, in fact, a small lizard. Native to Australia, I *think.* Sorry, I don't have a reference to hand right now. It's completely harmless. I'm not sure how it got that particular nickname. The mythological basilisk (as it appears in CoS) is exactly as JKR describes it--a great, venomous serpent with a deadly stare, hatched from an egg incubated under a toad. So, you were right--the basilisk of reality is a lizard. And JKR is right--the mythical basilisk is a serpent. Cheers! Peg From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 15 15:42:15 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:42:15 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > (Amy:) > > > -It's not me. > > > -It's not Peter. I love him and all, but he's not exactly the > > > brightest bulb on the tree. Who'd ask him to be a spy? He'd > > never be up to it. > > > -Uh oh. That seems to leave Remus. > Pippin who is *not* Pip: > > > > The trouble with this reasoning is that it excludes James and > > Lily. They also must have believed that the spy had to be (or > > could have been, if the circle was wider) Lupin rather than > > Sirius...or why didn't *they* tell Lupin about the switch? > > Darrin: > So Lupin wouldn't be vulnerable to capture and torture to reveal who > the Secret Keeper was? The more people that know, the less chance it > works, because V-Mort can just start pounding on people to find out > who the Secret Keeper is. How could the switch keep Lupin from being captured and tortured? Voldemort doesn't know about it! Anyway, Voldemort doesn't have to directly attack the Secret Keeper. He could murder a child a week until the Potters were given up to him. It may be that the use of the Secret Keeper spell, and the intention to make Sirius the Secret Keeper, were deliberately leaked in order to forestall just that. Voldemort would then know that, regardless of who he pounded on, only the Secret Keeper could deliver the Potters and only by *choosing to reveal* the secret. It's clear that Sirius believes that killing Peter or putting him under mind control of some kind wouldn't have gotten Voldemort what he wanted. Darrin: > Lupin just simply didn't need to know.< Lupin *could* have used that argument himself, but he doesn't. ""Not if he thought I was the spy. I assume that's why you didn't tell me?" he said casually..." If there's one thing we know about Lupin, it's that he's casual about important stuff. He really wants to find out if he was suspected. Maybe he's just looking for an opportunity to confess that he himself suspected Sirius. Or not. Pippin who thinks "I'm Not Pip" would be a good band name, but not as good as Need-to-Know From truebeliever60 at hotmail.com Thu May 15 17:12:19 2003 From: truebeliever60 at hotmail.com (truebeliever60) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:12:19 -0000 Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: <20030515.112436.-465817.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > 3. The basilisk is charmed to only be able to harm/kill Muggle- borns, not > Pure Bloods. > > Eh, maybe. > > Sooo..... thoughts, anything I missed, screwed up on, etc.? I like number three with and alteration. If the basilisk is intelligent enough to follow orders from a parselmouthe, maybe he was simply told to target muggle-borns? I was under the impression that the killing stare was an act of will on the basilisk's part, not that just making eye contact was lethal. Then wouldn't Salazar Slytherin and Tom Riddle have been dead after having a face to face chat with the beast? It actually seems perfect to me. The monster hunts mudbloods at night, the heir remains anonymous. Only mudbloods die, until the school rules it isn't safe for muggle-borns to attend. The monster goes into hiding on the heir's orders, and leaves the pure- bloods in peace. Genious, if you ask me. Tim, who thought the basilisk downright scary. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Thu May 15 15:46:15 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:46:15 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an interp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57925 Gomes Moor wrote: > Well, but I wonder: why didn't Dumbledore ask Moaning Myrtle? He probably did ask her. And she might have even answered. But what she knows is hardly enough - she opened the door, saw red eyes and died. Dumbledore can gather more info from the autopsy (or wizard equivalent). And he probably did. There is only so many pets someone like Slytherin would have anyway, and at the top of the list would be snakes in all their forms. Runespoor is a posibility, of course, but when you find petrified people all over the place, it becomes increasingly obvious that what they are dealing with is, indeed, a basilisk. > And if he knew there was a basilisk inside, why didn't he take other > measures to defeat it, like bringing more roosters to the castle? > > Gomes Moor But there were roosters in the castle. There have been for 50 years and more, I'm sure. And they weren't enough. As I said, the key is how to find the basilisk - i.e. how to predict its movements and where it stays between events. And neither are easily discovered without parsel abilities. Let's say Dumbledore noticed the connection to the bathroom. Now what? Let's go even further and say he discovers the snake etched in the handbasin. Still this takes him nowhere. Without Parseltongue, he cannot go further than that. Dumbledore does take measures to protect the students, but students are, by nature, unruly and that makes them difficult to protect. And certain measures aren't particularly useful. Killing roosters is easy, and filling the entire Hogwarts with roosters is not. And this is Tom Riddle we are talking about - roosters are a minor inconvineance. The teachers were on alert, and measures were taken. But there is no such thing as a foolproof defence against a creature that kills by sight, moves undetected and is mortally venomous. When you get right down to it, there is no such thing as a perfect defence for *anything* - there is always a way to circunvent it. Basilisks are classified XXXXX by the MoM. They are amongst the most deadly creatures ever. And this one is directed by a cunning mind, and has virtually free reign of the castle. I don't think Dumbledore could've done more than he did, short of closing the school and sending everyone home. But leaving those children uneducated when Voldemort is stirring is even more dangerous than the basilisk could ever be. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 15 16:00:04 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:00:04 -0500 Subject: Adopted!Harry....5th person at Godric's Hollow....An acronym Message-ID: <20030515.110005.-465817.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57926 The Admiring Skeptic wrote: >In brief: Harry is 18, V is gone, and he's about to consider a peaceful life in the future when D tells him that >back when he was 1 yr old, his 18-yr-old self had appeared at Godric's Hollow (5th person) and had >blocked the AK, wraithing V and dying in the process. ME: One big problem with that - if 18 year old Harry was the one to block the AK curse, then how did infant Harry get the scar? Did he get skittered with just a bit of the edge of it, or what? I really think Harry's scar is a result of the full-blown, undeflected AK hitting him and then rebounding upon Voldemort. ******* 5th person at Godric's Hollow: Personally, my money is on Pettigrew. I agree with a previous poster that Pettigrew most likely took Voldemort close to the house at Godric's Hollow before revealing the exact location, so as not to let the sudden awareness of their location in the minds of Dumbledore, Sirius and anyone else who knew the location, give time to let them come and stop or fight Voldemort. Another reason I think it's Pettigrew is that I believe he is the one who took Voldie's wand, stashed it somewhere safe, then retrieved it when Voldie was ready for it. ********* My first attempt at an acronym: I'm fully in the camp of those that think that Trelawney's first true prediction was about Harry being the soon-to-be downfall of LV. (And the centaurs backed her up, so DD actually believed it.) So here's my acronym, tell me if it needs tweating: PREDICTED HARRY: Potters Run, Escaping, Definitely Insuring Continued Trouble for Evil Darklord & Harry As Riddle's Ruin - Yes! LOL Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From Dionysos at Dionysia.org Thu May 15 18:05:23 2003 From: Dionysos at Dionysia.org (Dan Delaney) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:05:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] THAT was a basilisk? In-Reply-To: <20030515165125.72674.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57927 On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 12:51 PM, Becky Walkden wrote: > Now that somebody has mentioned the basilisk, I may be wrong but > aren't basilisk's actually lizards and not snakes? I don't think so. Basilisks are usually described as "serpents" of some kind--usually with added features like legs or the head of a rooster, but serpents nonetheless. Here are a couple of interesting reads: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/basilisks.htm --Dan From jodel at aol.com Thu May 15 18:24:28 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:24:28 EDT Subject: Substituted!Harry/variant (was; Adopted!Harry) Message-ID: <1f1.8ec1206.2bf5355c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57928 This debate *is* exciting. The original premise (that the Harry we know is in fact the same entity who formerly lived as one Tom Marvolo Riddle) is a good one, and I agree that as far as the series has gone -- so far -- there is ample suggestion that JKR is indeed building up to some form of this revelation. OTOH, there are ample niggling details which make the basic premis less than fully convincing. So. I propose that we examine some possible variations on the original theory and see whether they fly any better. We've already had Alex Cukier's "Riddle Twins" variant. Now, I want to propose what I will dub the "Trelawny Prophecy" variant. According to this variant, there was no Dark Ritual requiring the dislocation of the infant Riddle from his native timeline. (One of the major stumbling blocks to the original proposal.) Instead this variant throws the burden of origin onto the moldy old fig of Trelawny's first prophecy. I'll admit that I would just as soon not do this, since it is SUCH a cliche, but this element is sprawling all over the issue of what Voldemort's motivation in killing the Potters was and we ignore it at our peril. And to be honest, it is the discussion of the fans rather than attention to it in canon which has built it up to the monolith it is today. In this variant it was the Trelawny prophecy which set Voldemort on the Potter's trail. And, in accordance with tradition, every action he has taken to avert this fate has only served to bind him more firmly to it. The big difference in this variant is that the Potters really did have a son named Harry, and that the substitution took place on the night of their death. How do we *know* that the Avada Kedavra curse did not affect Harry, apart from giving him his scar? Obviously, it DID affect Harry. He has the trace memory of the name Tom Riddle. He is a Parselmouth -- despite there being no history of it in the Potter family tree, and his mother is Muggle-born. What *else* did it do to him? Is he even the *same* Harry Potter? Who, after all, got a good look at that infant after the attack, before he was given to the Dursleys to raise? And how well did they know the Potter's child in the first place? Sirius got a quick glimpse, in the dark of night, in the ruins of the Potter house when he turned up and tried to get Hagrid to let him take the child. Pettigrew had snatched Voldemort's wand and was off making plans to hide himself to his best advantage. He probably only knew that the infant had apparantly survived the attak and was howling. Lupin was out of the loop. If Lily had close friends of her own we do not know who they were. The Dursleys had never seen the child. We do not know how closely Dumbledore kept in touch with the Potters. Or Hagrid, for that matter. They saw a dark harired child with Lily's eyes and may have inquired no further. Various points (direct and indirect) to consider; 1. Voldemort had undergone a great deal of change since his human origins, and by the time he showed up at the Potter's. His "state" at that point was already largely that of an artificial construction. 2. It was established in PS/SS that VaporMort was capable of existing in the stolen bodies of other creatures for limited amounts of time. 3. It was established in CoS that human wizards are capable of producing concsious and potentially functional reproductions of their own "selves" [in fact, semi-embodied memories] which are capable of existing independently under the correct circumstances. 4. Rowling has rubbed everybody's noses in the existence of a poltergeist which is an entity believed to be produced by the psychic projection of turbulent human emotions -- without ever having been an actual human being, and consequently, while a "spirit" is not actually a "ghost". 5. Voldemort's attempt to murder Harry Potter established a connection between them. To all apearances, the result of that attempt was that the "vicitm" lived while the "murderer" did not. Okay; I propose that Lily's willing sacrifice was the triggering *last* step of a powerful protection spell which had already been set to ensure the child's survival. Very much as Ginny's death would have been the last step of a spell to release the Diary revenant from the book. It was not the single factor, it was the final, and triggering factor. The AK then served as a connection between Tom and Harry, and through the energy conducted by it *both* of them were *changed*. Harry, an imature human entity, is left with no concsious memory of the actual process, and Voldemort, a composite entity, seems to have been left with only a memory of pain. I believe that the pain was due in part to the stripping away of the non-human qualities which he had been at such pains to acquire. It was these non-human, non-mortal qualities which survived in disembodied form, controled and directed by Riddle's consious memories and sense of "self". These adult memories retain a tenuous connection to the original magical and tempramental qualities of the human Tom Riddle. The original [human] Tom Riddle with all the fundamental magical and tempramental qualities that he was born with was ripped from the no longer fully human body and using the connection established through the AK curse, was combined with those of the original Harry Potter, who was a *highly* compatible tempramental and magical type (which probably has something to do with the existence of the prophecy. No other child might have been able to fully combine with Riddle) both contained within the same physical body. The Harry Potter we know is a fully human, but composite, entity. Dumbledore, who may by now suspect what happened remains somewhat flummoxed that there is no clear physical trace of Riddle in Harry's appearance. The composite entity which we know as Harry Potter, however, unlike Riddle, retains a subconsious memory of 15 months as a loved, wanted child which by the time of the combination/substitution had established a very different sense of "self" from that which the young Riddle developed in the care of the orphanage. Consequently the overlay of the original Riddle's very similar temprament (which had not yet developed the disfunctional sense of self) and magical qualities had served to enhance rather than to divide or undermine the Potter child's original qualities. The actual process might be comparable to the grafting of a specific hybrid onto a related but more hardy root stock. This explains Harry's residual connection to Voldemort's emotional state. He shares not only a similar, but literally the *same* temprament as Voldemort's original source. It explains his resistence to Voldemort's magic, since he is using Voldemort's own power to resist him. The tug of way with the brother wands went harry's way because it was essentially two (the original Harry and the original Tom)'s wills against one. This "double-will" also explains his resistance to Imperius-style controls. The additional magical transfusion also explains the number and severity of Harry's early magical "breakthroughs". And it also explains something of the 2-dimentional cartoon character of the current Lord Voldemort. For all that he has managed to create a replica of his previous body, his previous self has not returned to it. The original human being is not there. What we have is an embodied memory without a human heart. It's emotions are memories of emotions, distorted and erratic. But powerful. And still exceedingly dangerous. And much trickier to finally get rid of than an enemy that one could simply kill. -JOdel From dicentra at xmission.com Thu May 15 18:28:12 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:28:12 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: > for the Society for Lupin's Unsullied Reputation Perpetuation Did you just coin an acronym, love? 'Cuz if you didn't, I need to know who did. Otherwise, Inish Alley has just immortalized the creator of SLURP as you. --Dicey, still the curator of Inish Alley From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 19:23:35 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: <20030515.112436.-465817.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <20030515192335.14664.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57930 --- Melanie L Ellis wrote: > I was thinking about Salazar Slytherin and his left-behind basilisk last > night. Now, on the surface, the explanation was that it was left behind > so that one day, his True Heir could open the Chamber and rid the school > of Muggle-borns and non-PureBloods. But, um, how was that supposed to > work, exactly? An excellent point, and a great analysis of the different possible methods. You're right, it DOESN'T seem very practical at all to have this monster that can kill with a look slithering around the school and yet somehow expected to kill ONLY the Muggle-borns. Although one problem with your analysis in the first two cases -- I doubt the Chamber entrance was in a bathroom when Salazar made it all those years ago. They didn't even HAVE modern plumbing then. I think the entrance probably modified itself to whatever use the room was put to at the time. But anyway, aside from that, the only solution seems for the basilisk to charmed somehow to only affect Muggle-borns. Yet Riddle sets it on Harry in the Chamber, fully expecting it to kill him. Yes, it could poison him (like it *did*), but Riddle still seemed quite perturbed at Fawkes blinding it. I'd think Riddle might have mentioned that in all his Evil Exposition to Harry. ("And so I'll carry on the work great Salazar Slytherin started -- to cleanse the school from Muggle-borns! The basilisk's stare, you see, will only kill Muggle-borns, leaving the *purebloods* safe. [evil cackling]") So if it's not practical to expect the basilisk to only encounter Muggle-borns and evidence tends against the special charm, what COULD be the solution? Could it be...the Chamber of Secrets really WAS a legend, as Binns said, and most of what we learned as "fact" is really just the exaggeration of a thousand years of story-telling? The only "solid, verifiable, historical *fact*" we know is that Salazar and Godric argued about the admission of Muggle-borns because Salazar thought they were "untrustworthy", and that eventually Salazar left the school over it. I suspect that Salazar the Genocidal Maniac is an invention of the legend (and fanon). It's quite a leap to go from thinking Muggle-borns are untrustworthy to wanting to kill them all! Salazar had a problem with the school's admissions policies, argued with the other Founders about it, and eventually left the school over the disagreement. Leaving a fantastic monster in a hidden Chamber to one day kill all the Muggle-borns sounds like a legend to me, something the children would tell each other to explain why there was the big argument. (We had some pretty wild stories going on at MY schools when the teachers had disagreements!) Ah, but in this case, there WAS a hidden Chamber with a terrible monster inside it. That obviously means the entire legend was true, right? Not necessarily. :) As Hermione said, most legends have SOME germ of historical fact at their core. If Salazar DID have a workshop that students were banned from and none knew what was inside, it would be an easy jump to "hidden chamber" and speculation that it was tied to the source of his leaving the school. After a thousand years, the speculation can get pretty wild, you know. ;) As Melanie pointed out very beautifully, the basilisk really was a silly way to cleanse the school of Muggle-borns. Why not a targeted spell or ensourceled weapon? Why a *basilisk*, locked up so it can't get out and just as likely to kill the purebloods as the Muggle-borns? Perhaps because the basilisk was never intended as a weapon against Muggle-borns in the first place? There are a dozen reasons I can think of off the top of my head why Salazar Slytherin would have kept a basilisk. He *was* a Parselmouth, so it wouldn't be *that* strange of a pet, as long as he found a way to keep it from killing him on sight. *g* And we have canon from "Fantastic Beasts" that Parselmouths studied Runespoors, so why not another magical serpent? For that matter, it seems like a pretty good defense if the castle is ever breached. Lock all the students in their dormitories (like they *should* be in an attack) and send a serpent that can kill you three or four ways but can only be *controlled* by your side charging down the hallways. Let me tell you, *I'd* think twice about invading again!! ;) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 15 19:35:27 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:35:27 -0000 Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: <20030515.112436.-465817.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: >> I was thinking about Salazar Slytherin and his left-behind basilisk last night. Now, on the surface, the explanation was that it was left behind so that one day, his True Heir could open the Chamber and rid the school of Muggle-borns and non-PureBloods. But, um, how was that supposed to work, exactly?<< I don't think Salazar Slytherin anticipated that the Chamber would be opened by a halfblood or a student. In the world Slytherin knew, a powerful wizard with a noble bloodline and a 20 foot basilisk at his command would have seemed formidable indeed. Tom, knowing neither the Muggle world nor the wizarding world would accept the leadership of a halfblood schoolboy, turned to terror to accomplish Slytherin's aim. He didn't have to attack all the Muggleborns, just enough to scare the Ministry into sending them away. We needn't assume Tom was working alone. He refers to his "intimate friends." There could have been lookouts by the bathroom and confederates who lured Muggleborns into lonely places where they might be attacked. Pippin From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 15 19:41:00 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:41:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) References: <20030515164819.49189.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001301c31b19$ea5f43b0$81ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57932 > ME: Ever been a mother of a large clan on 6 highly active (and overactive) intelligent boys and one young girl? Believe me, you'll spend a WHOLE lot of time getting on people's cases. And I think cannon has shown us more of the confrontations then the loving relationships between Molly and her children so this Evil Molly is another thing I can't buy. The twins must drive her absolutely nuts at times! But while they may cringe at her anger, they are hardly afraid of her ("And you call yourself our mother!" said in jest first book) and seem to love her very much. And Percy? Well I doubt a mom would be real quick at seeing his faults and HE doesn't give her so many headaches and has achieved things that would make every mother proud. Nah, Evil Molly is another example of why we need to get busy reading the next book. It's been so long, our own hyperactive imaginations are getting the better of us. Huggs Becky Let's not forget the QWC bit in GoF. Right before everyone leaves to go to it, Molly gets into an argument with Fred and George over their candies. She yells at them about still having them when they were told to get rid of them, and spending more time on foolishness like that instead of studying for their O.W.L.'s, which they could have got more of, in her opinion. But then she hears that the Dark Mark went up over the QWC. The next morning, when the Weasleys and co. come home, one of the first things she does is pull Fred and George into extremely tight hugs and says, "I shouted at you before you left! It's all I've been thinking about! What if You-Know-Who had got you, and the last thing I ever said to you was that you didn't get enough O.W.L.'s?" (p. 146 US hardcover) Not only does this scene shows how much she does love the twins, but to me, it brought home what it might have been like to live in the Dark Times even more than Arthur's explanation in the previous chapter. The Dark Mark was going up all the time, and people were always hearing the worst about the places where these things had gone up. Molly, having been an adult and perhaps even fighting against Voldemort during the last war, knows perfectly well what that Mark symbolizes and, although the Daily Prophet made it clear that all the attendees of the QWC hadn't died, it also never said that there were no casualties, meaning that anyone who knows what that Mark means and knew someone who was going to the Match probably had a sleepless night like Molly, afraid that their loved one(s) had been hurt or killed. Molly's emotion really helps bring home Arthur's words on what it was like to live at that time. As one can guess, I don't believe Molly is evil at all. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From koticzka at wp.pl Wed May 14 18:20:34 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:20:34 +0200 Subject: Hints for HP and the Order of the Phoenix! / Mistakes / Laws of Magic (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: PS/SS vs. CoS: It's A Tie!) References: <4.2.0.58.20030510175257.00963ac0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <002301c31abf$6a08c060$3d104cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 57933 Gulplum wrote: <> Koticzka: Does it need any further comments comparing to What We Know About HP5? ;)Who will die? Hmmm... Perhaps you have just answered the big question! As for the rest: You are right on almost every point from my point of view. However, I have one explanation for lots of the mistakes - nobody is perfect. JKR writes in a hurry. It is hard to deal with every detail even with beta-readers... Third: How do they create something out of nothing? What do they need shops for if one could just use a wand? Bathrooms? Kitchens? Money? I know one could explain some of the details, but we can find more and more scenes like this (where something was created out of nothing). I do not mean the details but a general idea of using charms. Even Ron could have transformed his robe for the Yule Ball. Why didn't Mrs. Weasley has do it for him??? She could have gotten his books the same way! If cleaning the classrooms is so easy - and so on, and so on... What is the limit for spells and charms? Cannot stop wondering >:| Perhaps it needs some concentration and strength? Has anyone already solved the problem? Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 15 19:57:30 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:57:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) References: Message-ID: <001d01c31b1c$389b6c50$81ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57934 Maria Alena then wondered: > PS - is there an Evil!Molly theory? She did buy Harry green robes, > you know... Catherine: There is now. Takes of shoes and prepares to jump in with both feet, possibly in the manner of Princess Margaret unwisely and about to get burnt... Oh, those green robes. One of the few slip-ups in Molly's otherwise well-camouflaged villainy, or perhaps, for we should surely give this more devious witch all possible credit for her subtleties, a little joke of her own concerning Harry's own inherent iffyness, designed to raise his fellow pupils' suspicions (why is this Gryffindor clad in Slytherin green?) and draw them away from thoughts that anyone but Harry might have sabotaged the competition. Kelly (me): Why is buying green robes considered as evil? McGonagall wears green robes as well, and I think Arthur was even described as wearing green. Personally, I've wondered for a little bit if there is some significance in the color of a witch or wizard's robe color? Take note of Fudge's ensemble: pinstriped suit, scarlet tie, long black cloak, pointed purple boots, and a lime-green bowler. As the Minister of Magic, Fudge is supposed to represent the WW (or at least the British version of it, unsure if he would speak for India or the US, for instance). For him to always wear such a multi-colored assortment of clothes is odd, probably even in the WW, unless there is a reason for it. If clothing color does have some significance, then perhaps Molly chose green for Harry for this reason. I really would like to know if the clothing color has some significance, and if so, what does it mean? I don't believe the colors in the adult WW have a thing to do with Hogwarts house colors. As for Harry's robes vs. Ron's, keep in mind she used Harry's money to buy his, so he can afford better. As for Ron, she is getting four kids ready to go to Hogwarts by herself in the span of a day. That's a lot to do. Maybe she intended to do a bit more the next morning early, but then she read the Daily Prophet and heard about the Dark Mark. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From glcherry at bellsouth.net Thu May 15 18:41:00 2003 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:41:00 -0000 Subject: Evil Lupin / Evil Molly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57935 Okay, I'm going to throw my opinion out here, and as I'm new, I hope you'll forgive me. Pippin wrote: Even Lupin's own friends thought him the spy... Now Lorrie: I do believe the reason for this is Lupins' werewolf status. Werewovles and considered Dark Creatures according to canon, and as Voldemort is the most powerful Dark Lords in ages, maybe they were afraid of his ability to control the 'wolf' more than the man. It is possible (and this borders on TBAY possibly), even Dumbledor himself said that Voldemort has powers / abilities he himself never has / will have. I think it was in PS/SS, don't have the books right in front on me. Now, as for not telling Remus about the switch between Sirius, and Peter. Is a secret a secret if you keep telling people about it? How many people actually knew about Sirius being the Secret Keeper? 5 at the very least, and if Sirius thought Remus was being influenced by Lord V, it makes sense he wouldn't tell him about the switch or anyone else for that matter. One more thing: Evil Molly. THAT is insidious! And I don't know which is worse, that you people have thought of this, or that it might be true. Thanks for letting me state my opinion. Lorrie From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 15 20:14:16 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:14:16 -0000 Subject: Evil!Molly / Evil!Lupin / SLURP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57936 Maria Alena, now, replying to those Molly-loves-her-children posts: Might I step in to say that a mother can love her children and still be evil? That's not beyond the realm of possibility, you know. This is reminiscent of those arguments against Evil!Lupin that go something like this: "Well, if Lupin is evil, why does he not like turning into a werewolf? He should enjoy killing people then." Being evil and disliking violence and loss of self-control are not mutually exclusive. Kelly asked: > Why is buying green robes considered as evil? Ah, it is the colour of Slytherin, the House of Evil Wizards. Ask Darrin, he'll tell you. Kelly again: > McGonagall wears green robes as well, and I think Arthur was even > described as wearing green. Personally, I've wondered for a little > bit if there is some significance in the color of a witch or > wizard's robe color? Actually, the only reason I brought Evil!Molly up was because I had suddenly remembered the Evil!McGonagall post (and it made such a coherent argument), which listed the fact that she wears green robes as evidence of her evilness. Molly, too, seems to like the colour green, and we must be consistent, mustn't we? We must also keep in mind that those two MOM wizards who drove Harry et al to King's Cross in PoA also wore green. They were evil as well. Pippin wrote: > Lupin *could* have used that argument himself, but he doesn't. > ""Not if he thought I was the spy. I assume that's why you didn't > tell me?" he said casually..." If there's one thing we know about > Lupin, it's that he's casual about important stuff. He really > wants to find out if he was suspected. Maybe he's just looking for > an opportunity to confess that he himself suspected Sirius. Or not. What do *you* make of that phrase? How does it tie in with Evil! Lupin? What do you mean, "Or not?" I hope I'm not being thick here. Lupin *is* casual about important stuff, true. But I don't think they were going to start a long talk about why, exactly, they suspected each other of being spies in front of the children. About SLURP: Amy, I want to join SLURP, but only if Unsullied Reputation means that Lupin's not a DE. If that also means that he's perfect, I can't. Sorry. Maria Alena ---how's Green Robes for a band name? From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu May 15 20:17:41 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:17:41 -0000 Subject: That was a basilisk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pegruppel" wrote: , hatched from an egg incubated under a toad. Well actually *that* is a cocatrice. A very close relative of the basilisk, but not a basilisk as such. Mel From Lynx412 at aol.com Thu May 15 20:20:17 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:20:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: E!Lupin Message-ID: <1d9.9ae7bf4.2bf55081@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57938 In a message dated 5/15/03 9:34:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: > The trouble with this reasoning is that it excludes James and > Lily. They also must have believed that the spy had to be (or > could have been, if the circle was wider) Lupin rather than > Sirius...or why didn't *they* tell Lupin about the switch? I don't think they could tell anyone after the Fidelis spell had been cast. They were now officially hidden from *all* view unless the secretkeeper spoke. I suspect that included to friends. So, PP would have been the only one capable of revealing both the switch and the location...and he did...just not to Lupin. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 15 20:28:53 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:28:53 -0000 Subject: Evil!Molly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57939 Lorrie wrote: > One more thing: Evil Molly. THAT is insidious! And I don't know > which is worse, that you people have thought of this, or that it > might be true. Maria Alena: Aw, Lorrie, it's fun! I don't think there's been a character who hadn't been accused of being evil at some point in time, so why should Molly be an exception? Besides, you should know that the term "Evil" is used to mean lots of different things here. "We people" have thought of many things. Well, *I* haven't thought of many, but there are lots of theories around, and some of them are just terrible. "So EWWWer It's In the SEWWWer" is one. The Harry is Voldemort and Harry is Voldemort's father make me react pretty much the same way. Ever So Evil (ESE), for instance, means that the person in question is a Death Eater or an active Voldemort supporter. Evil can also mean "capable of betrayal." The first time I participated in an Evil!Lupin discussion, in December - shortly after I joined, we shifted from discussing ESE!Lupin to Perfidious!Lupin. Both involved calling Lupin evil. Evil!Molly doesn't mean that she has the Dark Mark or goes around murdering people. She can pass on information a la Ludo Bagman (or not pass on information, a la Lupin) and still be called evil. Pippin, I'm having fun discussing ESE!Lupin now, do you know? I'm in shock. But only ESE. Not perfidious. Maria Alena To find out about the mentioned theories, go to http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Thu May 15 20:43:06 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:43:06 -0000 Subject: Filch and Crouch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57940 Haven't noticed this anywhere in the archives... Filch's eye are described as "bulging" several times. For example: "He ripped back the tapestry below, and Harry saw his horrible, pouchy face and bulging, pale eyes staring up the dark and (to Filch) deserted staircase." (GoF, The Egg and the Eye) There are other places where this description can be found. Now, as we all know, Crouch Sr.'s eyes bulge whenever he is, er, excited. Crouch Jr.'s eye bulges in the end of GoF: "Moody's normal eye was bulging." We can assume this runs in the family, then. I propose that Filch is related to the Crouches. Say, he is Crouch Sr.'s brother. Or cousin. He was thrown out of the family when his relatives realized that he was a Squib. Crouch, OTOH, happily attended Hogwarts, hence Filch's resentment of wizards. Discuss. Maria Alena From jodel at aol.com Thu May 15 18:53:39 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:53:39 EDT Subject: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) Message-ID: <35.380ce38b.2bf53c33@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57941 Maria Alena then wondered: > PS - is there an Evil!Molly theory? She did buy Harry green robes, > you know... catherine mckiernan: There is now.<< That was fun. Actually, I've been coming round very much to the PoV that the Weasleys, particularly Arthur and Molly are in the story to serve the function of ultimately teaching Harry some of life's harder lessons. To the point that I've pretty throughly reworked the Weasley family essay up on the Red Hen site. [http://www.redhen-publications.com] Molly's parenting style is doing very real damage to the kids she has at home now, but this seems to have not always been the case. No more than that Cornelius Fudge was always the dodgy figure he is now. Upon the whole, it is beginning to look like the ww has not benefited uniformly from the 13 years of peace that Lily Potter bought them. -JOdel From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu May 15 21:09:16 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:09:16 -0000 Subject: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) In-Reply-To: <35.380ce38b.2bf53c33@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57942 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > > That was fun. It was, and thought I don't seriously entertain a belief in Evil!Molly, I can more easily be persuaded about Fascist!Percy. Yes, he waded into the lake at the end of the second task out of presumed concern, and he's apparently capable of a little gambling fun and romance (both with Penelope Clearwater), but the catalog of his less charming behaviors is a bit bigger -- his general prefectness both at school and at home, his misguided (I think) admiration of his boss, his rude Easter note to Ron... there are probably others, but I remain concerned about that boy. Maybe he'll just end up as an effective bureaucrat, but he seems to me to have some potential vulnerability to bad influences. Ersatz Harry From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 15 20:26:57 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:26:57 -0000 Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: <20030515192335.14664.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57943 Andrea wrote: > But anyway, aside from that, the only solution seems for the basilisk to > charmed somehow to only affect Muggle-borns. Yet Riddle sets it on Harry > in the Chamber, fully expecting it to kill him. Yes, it could poison him > (like it *did*), but Riddle still seemed quite perturbed at Fawkes > blinding it. I'd think Riddle might have mentioned that in all his Evil > Exposition to Harry. ("And so I'll carry on the work great Salazar > Slytherin started -- to cleanse the school from Muggle-borns! The > basilisk's stare, you see, will only kill Muggle-borns, leaving the > *purebloods* safe. [evil cackling]") I don't know if it only has to kill Muggle-borns. There have been plenty of slurs thrown around against "Muggle-Lovers" to make me think that just being a pureblood isn't necessarily protection enough. Protecting a mudblood could be sin enough in the eyes of a madman like V-Mort or Slythering. Second, the definition of Muggle-born seems to be different for some people. In some eyes, a wizard like Hermione is Muggle-born, with a Muggle mother and father. In other eyes, such as Riddle and the Malfoys, just having the line broken with Muggles is taint enough. Now, Salazar would most likely have wanted Slytherins to be protected. Perhaps he was counting on the Heir to be able to direct the basilisk away from Slyths? > Ah, but in this case, there WAS a hidden Chamber with a terrible monster > inside it. That obviously means the entire legend was true, right? > > Perhaps because the basilisk was never intended as a weapon against > Muggle-borns in the first place? Let us assume for the moment that whatever the reason Salazar left behind the basilisk, it was not a benevolent or harmless act. He did have a secret area that could only be found by a Parselmouth and he did leave a giant snake in there that could only be controlled by one. I am willing to concede that, although I believe Salazar to be a genocidal loony for even leaving the damn thing behind, V-Mort has perhaps twisted Slytherins wishes. But still, it was Salazar who left the thing. > There are a dozen reasons I can think of off the top of my head why > Salazar Slytherin would have kept a basilisk. He *was* a Parselmouth, so > it wouldn't be *that* strange of a pet, as long as he found a way to keep > it from killing him on sight. *g* Then why not take it with him when he left? Didn't he miss his wittle Fido? And we have canon from "Fantastic Beasts" that Parselmouths studied Runespoors, so why not another magical serpent? For that matter, it seems like a pretty good defense if the castle is ever breached. Lock all the students in their dormitories (like they *should* be in an attack) and send a serpent that can kill you three or four ways but can only be *controlled* by your side charging down the hallways. Let me tell you, *I'd* think twice about invading again!! ;) > A defense that can only be unleashed and controlled via a Parselmouth? When there -- apparently -- have been only two such gifted people in the last 1,000 years? I would agree it would have been a defense... for Salazar. I could see him thinking: Let the other three nitwits fight the invaders brought on by their Muggle-loving foolish ways, while I -- and perhaps the other Slyths, though that is not a requirement -- retire to my hideout and wait for the dust to settle. Cunning, indeed. Darrin -- Fido the Basilisk would be a great name for a band. From oppen at mycns.net Thu May 15 19:17:35 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:17:35 -0500 Subject: Evil-Molly Theories Message-ID: <006f01c31b2a$a6940240$3f560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 57944 I've got to say that the argument earlier that Molly Weasley is Ever So Evil was ingenious. As a long-time reader of mysteries that do their best to make the least obvious person the villain, I find theories about the Evil-ness of un-obvious people intriguing (and I think I may be the list member who came up with the "Hermione Granger is Ever So Evil and plans to be the next Big Dark Sorceress" theory) However, what might be Molly's motives for being Ever So Evil? Could she have been having an affair with a DE---like the one that was living, under her whole family's noses, in her house for years and years? (And how _did_ the Weasleys acquire Wormtail/Scabbers, anyway? Inquiring minds want to know!) No. NO. Evil she may be---but Molly's still a woman, and I can't see _any_ woman going for that cringing little twerp. I know of people in the fandom who crush on the unlikeliest people, but I haven't seen anybody yet going all gooey over Wormtail. However---she could be very ambitious for herself _and_ her family. Being Ever So Evil does _not_ preclude being a good, warm, loving, caring parent, and she might well feel that the "good" side won't ever let her children get to their maximum potential. Let's face it, the Powers That Be in the WW are corrupt, incompetent, inept, and about as much use in a crisis as a one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest. Or she could be out for _revenge._ We don't know much about her family, do we? What if, say, some kin of hers were falsely accused and thrown into Azkaban without a trial during the Voldemort Years? I'm seeing a future scene, where Ron, Hermione and Harry have been captured by the DEs, and are tied up in the middle of the circle, surrounded by masked and robed DEs. Voldemort's ranting and raving, in classic Evil Overlord fashion, about all the Evil Stuff he's going to do to them "---and after I make you, Hermione, read fifty or sixty _Sweet Valley High_ books...*Hermione faints in horror* I'll start on you, Ron Weasley!" Right about then, a robed DE behind V'mort pulls out a wand and either AKs him or gives him a good solid "Reducto!" right in the back. Standing over the smoking, twitching, bleeding corpse, the DE pulls off her mask. Ron's eyes go wide as saucers. "MOM!" "Hello, dear," says Molly. "Don't look quite so gob-smacked; you always did look like a guppy-fish at feeding-time when anything unexpected happened. Why are you so surprised? I needed _something_ to do on my own, when you and your brothers and sister were out of the house." She turns to the DEs. "Well? What are you waiting for? 'Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!'" As the DEs bow, she turns the Trio loose. "Now, run along to school, dear---and for pity's sake, at least _try_ to do some studying!" From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Thu May 15 20:19:53 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: <20030515192335.14664.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030515201953.64356.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57945 Following Melanie's very interesting thought about the practicality of the Basilisk, Andrea wrote: << But anyway, aside from that, the only solution seems for the basilisk to [have been] charmed somehow to only affect Muggle-borns. >>> Me (Odile): Veddy interesting indeed! As far as we know from canon (and I am sorry but I do not have the books with me), Moaning Myrtle was the *only* person/entity killed by the Basilisk, when it looked at her with his big yellow peepers, right? Is it certain that Myrtle was indeed a "mudblood"? Draco Malfoy said as much to the Polyjuiced!Harry & Ron, but was it a fact? Or did he and Lucius just assume as much [that she was Muggle-born] because she died as a result of the Chamber of Secrets being opened? I recall seeing, in previous posts, speculation as to whether or not Nearly Headless Nick and Mrs. Norris were Muggle-born, since they were attacked as well. Until it is proven that *all* victims of the Basilisk (be they petrified or killed outright), I have to whole-heartedly agree with Melanie, that unless the Basilisk was "programmed" to kill only Muggle-borns, then the Basilisk wasn't exactly genius. This may very well be answered in the text, but, like I said, I don't have the books with me. Andrea also wrote: <<>> Me (Odile) again: A good point, to be sure, but the snake was on the faucet thing - surely that was in place from the beginning, when Salazar Slytherin first built it? This may be movie contamination on my part, though! And another question: how was Fawkes able to peck the Basilisks eyes out without any ill effects (unless you don't count getting eyeball goop on your beak an "ill effect")? Are phoenixes immune to the Basilisks' deadly stare? Odile ^_^ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Thu May 15 21:07:38 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:07:38 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57946 "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Bored with time travel for now, so I'm thinking of reasons why V- Mort targeted James, Lily and Harry in the first place? >
> Idea 1: Just Good Business > Idea 2: Hatfield and McCoys > Idea 3: For the love of a good Snape > Idea 4: Granddaddy dearest (OR -- the Star Wars theory) > There you go. Anyone else? Me: Based on the tiniest bit of canon evidence, I'm going to dispute theories 1 and 2: in PS/SS Hagrid says about Lily and James: " Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before... probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin' ter do with the Dark Side. It's not hard evidence. But, since this isn't a court of law, I'm going to use it to make an educated guess that Voldie had no interest in the Potters whatsoever before Harry was born. That evil plan of his (whatever it was) had been making good, steady progress for the 10 years preceding Harry's birth and he had been recruiting plenty of followers all the while. But, according to Hagrid, he didn't show the slightest interest in the Potters ? until Harry's birth. Fudge does say in PoA that not many people were aware that Voldemort was after the Potters. Dumbledore knew, via one of his spies, and upon receiving this information immediately sent the Potters into hiding. And we can date the general time he received this information by a quote of Sirius Black's later on in PoA: "DON'T LIE!" bellowed Black. "YOU'D BEEN PASSING INFORMATION TO HIM FOR A YEAR BEFORE LILY AND JAMES DIED! YOU WERE HIS SPY!" Dumbledore received this information around the time of Harry's birth ? and the Potters had been on the run ever since. I'm a firm believer that (as the title of the series suggests), it really is all about Harry. And on points 3 and 4: So, why Harry? What's the big deal? It could be an "heir" issue. If we want to believe that what Voldemort told Harry is true. That Lily didn't have to die. Then the lineage must go back through James' bloodline. So why not remove James before Harry's birth? I can only think of two reasons: James' lineage wasn't known (or widely known). Or, Voldemort didn't realize that any lineage was a concern of his (that is, until Trelawney's prediction). And this information must only have come to Voldemort's attention after Lily was already pregnant (Heck, maybe it was even Peter who spilled the beans?). Also, if the lineage went through Lily's bloodlines, than Voldie would have also been after Petunia and Dudley, and we've seen no canon evidence of that so far. So, no, Lily did not have to die. But Harry was a threat and James was a threat and both needed to be removed. Yeah, its' not as Bangy as the Snape/Lily, but I think it works. -Tanya (who is wondering why Harry doesn't have his own Wizard's Card yet) From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Thu May 15 21:02:51 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:02:51 -0500 Subject: Filk: You're a Mean One, Mr. Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57947 Inspired by the recent "I Hate Snape" and "S.L.Y.T.H.E.R.I.N.S." posts, and a comment made in another message (I forget by whom, sorry.) here's the filk: Scene: The students, led by Harry Potter, have had enough abouse and have decided to revolt. They come down to the potions classroom and corner Snape in his own dungeon. Harry: You're a mean one, Mr. Snape. You're really, really cruel. You're as charming as a serpent, You're as cuddly as a ghoul. Mr. Snape. Your personality smells as good as Three week old gruel! Ron: You're a monster, Mr. Snape. You're creepy as a bat. You're as lethal as a Lethifold, And ugly as a rat. Mr. Snape. I'm sure when you grew up you were A terrible brat! Hermione: You're a vile one, Mr. Snape. And I'm sure you can't refute You have all the tender sweetness Of a big Blast-Ended Skrewt. Mr. Snape. Given the choice between the two of you I'd take the Blast-Ended Skrewt! Ron: You're a foul one, Mr. Snape. You make us all morose. We want to go quite far away Whenever you get close. Mr. Snape. The three words that best describe you, are, and I quote: "Grease. Grease. Gross!" Hermione: You're a rotter, Mr. Snape. You're the king of greasy gits. You often send poor Neville Into epileptic fits, Mr. Snape. Your soul is an apalling dump heap overflowing with the most disgraceful assortment of deplorable rubbish imaginable, and that's just the nice bits! Hobbit_guy, who really ought to calm down about this Snape thing, huh? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From glcherry at bellsouth.net Thu May 15 21:39:04 2003 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:39:04 -0000 Subject: Evil Lupin/ Evil Molly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57948 Maria Alena wrote: I don't think there is a character that hasn't been accused of being evil... Lorrie: I know, I've been reading through the archives, and am amazed at some of them. Maria Alena also wrote: Evil! Molly doesn't mean that she has the Dark Mark or goes around murdering people... Lorrie again: AHA! But how do we know that?! Have we seen/ read of her in short sleeves? I can't remember reading it myself, but my brain seems to be on vacation this week (too Hot in Mobile AL.) She could have the Dark Mark concealed. After all, Lord V's Inner Circle people do have the DM, but what about others? Is there canon to prove or refute the fact that 'supporters' have it/ don't have it as well? Oh, one more thing, when I said "you people" I do hope no one got insulted by that. I merely meant, the people on this list who have been here so very much longer than I have. Hope that clears it up. I'm a worry-wart by nature. (Big grin). This is the best list I have ever found, and the theories that fly by an at incredible rate...I think I need to brush up on my reasoning skills. Lorrie (who needs a sun hat now.) From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 22:45:16 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030515224516.78318.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57949 --- darrin_burnett wrote: > Andrea wrote: > I don't know if it only has to kill Muggle-borns. There have been plenty > of slurs > thrown around against "Muggle-Lovers" to make me think that just being a > pureblood isn't necessarily protection enough. Protecting a mudblood > could > be sin enough in the eyes of a madman like V-Mort or Slythering. Which is, IMO, one more indication that the basilisk wasn't the best idea if its purpose was slaughter of only certain people with a varying definition. > Let us assume for the moment that whatever the reason Salazar left > behind > the basilisk, it was not a benevolent or harmless act. Why? The only indication that it *wasn't* is a thousand year old legend and the actions of his many-time-great-grandson who wasn't even raised by the family and so wouldn't know any family stories passed down, whether for or against Muggle-borns. He just had whatever knowledge he learned from his research, and his own prejudices formed by growing up in an orphanage after being rejected by a Muggle. > He did have a secret area that could only be found by a Parselmouth and > he did leave a giant snake in there that could only be controlled by one. Yes. But, as I said earlier, that doesn't necessarily mean it was meant to be used for harm. A man leaves a gun in a locked box hidden away someplace only he can access. Later someone he doesn't know uses it to shoot someone. Why is the first man blamed for the murder? > I am willing to concede that, although I believe Salazar to be a > genocidal > loony for even leaving the damn thing behind, V-Mort has perhaps twisted > Slytherins wishes. Thank you. :) I also will concede that it's fully possible that Salazar is a raving genocidal madman. But it's not canon, and I always feel obliged when people treat it as such. It's simply one interpretation of still vague text. > Then why not take it with him when he left? Didn't he miss his wittle > Fido? *snickerfits* I actually have a fic where a magical serpent's very complicated Parseltongue name is translated into English as "Fido". :) I'm sure if the pet scenario was true, he'd miss it when he left, but it's a lot less practical to take a basilisk on a cross-country journey than keep it in a hidden room of a castle. And if it was meant for defense or was confined because it was a danger, then there's no reason he'd take it and every reason he *wouldn't*. > A defense that can only be unleashed and controlled via a Parselmouth? > When there -- apparently -- have been only two such gifted people in the > last 1,000 years? We only know that Riddle was the first Parselmouth who opened the Chamber. He said himself that it was very difficult to find, so it's fully possible that there were other Parselmouths at Hogwarts who either never looked for the Chamber or just couldn't find it. We know that it's a *rare* gift, but not that Harry and Voldemort were the first Parselmouths since Slytherin. I think that's a pretty big jump. And at the time he created the Chamber, Slytherin may have thought he and his descendants would *always* be at Hogwarts. We don't know how long the Founders were all together at Hogwarts before the last argument that split them. > I would agree it would have been a defense... for Salazar. I could see > him thinking: Let the other three nitwits fight the invaders brought on by > their Muggle-loving foolish ways, while I -- and perhaps the other Slyths, > though that is not a requirement -- retire to my hideout and wait for the > dust to settle. That would also be a possibility. But it still doesn't mean he was actively advocating the deaths of Muggle-borns and Muggle-lovers. It's reasonable to think each Founder would have a special defense for their own students. No one thinks there's anything wrong with Godric leaving a sword for students in *his* House. The only difference was in how their respective students chose to use it. Harry could have just as easily gone on a mad rampage with that sword and killed off the Slytherins. Riddle used the basilisk to attack, Harry used the sword to defend. Neither is necessarily an indication of their House's Founder's original intentions. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 22:54:52 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: <20030515201953.64356.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030515225452.1115.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57950 --- Odile Falaise wrote: > A good point, to be sure, but the snake was on the > faucet thing - surely that was in place from the beginning, when Salazar > Slytherin first built it? This may be movie contamination on my part, > though! Well, assuming the Chamber entrance magically adapts to whatever the room is used for, presumably the marking would change too. A tiny carved snake on the wall becomes a snake on a faucet when plumbing is put in. Come on, it's magic! *g* > And another question: how was Fawkes able to peck the Basilisks eyes out > without any ill effects (unless you don't count getting eyeball goop on > your beak an "ill effect")? Are phoenixes immune to the Basilisks' > deadly stare? I always assumed that Fawkes wasn't looking at it, but was instead looking partly away or had his eyes closed. (Didn't Harry shout at him not to look when he flew in?) Andrea __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 15 22:29:02 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:29:02 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57951 Tanya > > And on points 3 and 4: > It could be an "heir" issue. If we want to believe that what > Voldemort told Harry is true. That Lily didn't have to die. Then the > lineage must go back through James' bloodline. So why not remove > James before Harry's birth? I can only think of two reasons: James' > lineage wasn't known (or widely known). Or, Voldemort didn't realize > that any lineage was a concern of his (that is, until Trelawney's > prediction). And this information must only have come to > Voldemort's attention after Lily was already pregnant (Heck, maybe > it was even Peter who spilled the beans?). Someone was keeping an eye on the Potters, most likely Peter, as you mentioned in the parts above I snipped. Again, I tend to think of Heir as "chosen one" rather than "relative." Now, it is entirely possible that Harry is descended from Godric Gryffindor, just as Riddle was from Salazar Slytherin, but there have likely been dozens of men (and while I'm at it, whose to say it has to be men?) in both of their lines. Why Riddle and Harry? Because there is something special about them. They have been chosen. I think the relations might be just incidental. In which case, James and Lily didn't have to die to exterminate the line so much as needed to be eliminated to tie up loose ends. > Also, if the lineage went through Lily's bloodlines, than Voldie > would have also been after Petunia and Dudley, and we've seen no > canon evidence of that so far. > > So, no, Lily did not have to die. But Harry was a threat and James > was a threat and both needed to be removed. I still keep coming back to the fact that V-Mort does not appear to have made much of an effort to spare Lily. I'm not going to dispute that Lily would have fought like a lionness, but I think in a head's up match, V-Mort wins every time. But so long as it's not Lily-Snape or Lily-V-Mort, I'll buy it. :) Darrin -- Harry's Wizard Card would be a WONDERFUL name for a band. So would the Sally Slyths or the Goddy Gryffs. From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Thu May 15 19:10:06 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:10:06 -0000 Subject: Harry and Morality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57952 Troels wrote: > > The point I wish to drive home is that it is /not/ up > > to the individual itself to decide which laws should > > be broken because they are unjust. Allowing that leads > > to a justification of all sorts of reprehensible acts. > > One simply cannot, IMO, build a moral system on the > > idea that it is OK to do A if the person agrees with > > oneself, but it is punishable if the person doesn't > > agree with oneself. Barb wrote: > I reckon we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. IMO, it is > indeed up to the individual to determine when he/she has had it with > being complicit in injustice and to take action. I can't help but get the feeling that the problem here is a confusion not so much between morality and legality but between what an individual believes to be morally right and what actually may be. (Also, it seems to me that the two above are looking rather determinedly at different sides of a matter -- Barb is looking at the idea that laws may need to be changed, whereas Troels is pointing out the possibility that some people may believe laws need to be changed when perhaps they should not. But that isn't, at least to me, the main point.) It makes me somewhat uneasy to say that it isn't up to the individual to decide when a law or an authority is unjust or wrong (or, possibly, inapplicable) and should be flouted. I believe that individuals are personally responsible for their own behavior, including moral choices and including decisions on whether to flout the rules. If the individual isn't deciding, then who can? Another individual? What gives the other individual this right? A group? Well, that goes back to the idea that the first individual in question presumably believes that some group is in the wrong, or wouldn't be considering the matter. However. I may be misunderstanding, but I'm not sure that Troels is in fact trying to say that individuals can't make their own choices. The sentence about moral systems is what suggests to me that confusion has entered the discussion. I think that the individual can and must decide -- though the decision may indeed be to abide by the choices of people who may have greater knowledge of the situation, reasoning, or practicality involved for a time -- but as I don't think people are infallible, neither do I think that just because someone can justify an action or sincerely believes it to be right necessarily means that it IS right. If the person believes that it is right, then granted, this may mean they're doing the best they can -- and it's good to have tried -- but it won't negate the consequences. Nor, and this is important, will it eliminate the possibility or justification for other people to consider the action wrong. And I think that might be the sticking point here. "persephone_kore" From ajlboston at yahoo.com Thu May 15 19:56:51 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:56:51 -0000 Subject: That was a basilisk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pegruppel" wrote: > Becky Walkden wrote: > > > > Now that somebody has mentioned the basilisk, I may be wrong but > aren't basilisk's actually lizards and not snakes? > Me: > > Well, the *real* basilisk is, in fact, a small lizard. Native to > Australia, I *think.* Sorry, I don't have a reference to hand right > now. It's completely harmless. I'm not sure how it got that > particular nickname. Lizards in the Basilik family (Basilicus basilicus, Chrispalo cherepo basilisk, etc.) are from Central America (Costa Rica, Guatemala, etc.) and are sometimes called Jesus Christ Lizards because they can run over water for short stretches when they need to elude predators. Males (such as the Brown Basilisk you might see at a pet store) have hadrosaurlike crests, whence the name, I believe. A.J. From rstephens at northwestern.edu Thu May 15 20:51:26 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:51:26 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57954 Dear my fellow Grown-up HP fans, I have barely been a member of this group for a week, and I'm already hooked. I'm not sure what I check more--my email or this message board-- and that's saying something. As I perused the Dataase of acronyms, my boyfriend (who is really a closet HP fan himself) felt the need for a little self- deprecation in this allegedly PATHETIC group. That's right, he tried to make fun of us/me by coming up with his own acronym for HPfGU (ironic, is it not?). However, I readily admit to being a Potterphile Attempting To Have Epihpanies Through Investigating Canon. I told him I think everyone would would probably prefer to be called an ECCENTRIC (a.k.a. an Eager Chapter Comber Endeavoring Nightly To Rightly Interpret Cannon). That being said, I now return to combing GoF in hopes of discovering any hint of what's to come in OotP and making angry eyes at my boyfriend across the room. Cheers, the ever-eccentric rach From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 15 22:54:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:54:47 -0000 Subject: avada kedavra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57955 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: >> >> ...edited previous post... >> >> I believe Voldemort is completely stupid. .... Voldemort has >> become maniacal in his quest,.... Isn't this the case for all Evil >> characters? They focus so much on one thing that they forget about >> everything else. >> >> Do you guys think that maybe the DE's will turn against Voldemort >> because all he cares about is killing Harry? .... >> >> Greicy, I think, and have said before that Voldemort is a megalomaniac. The man has a god complex. Since he views himself as superior to all other beings, he can do no wrong. That wouldn't be that ineffective if he was just forcing that belief on other people, but he actually believes it himself. Since he's infallible as all gods are, any plan he comes up with can't be questioned by himself or heaven forbid, anyone else. I'm working on a fan fic, in which Harry explains to Draco what a lost cause Voldemort is. That part goes something like this (slightly censored)- "Even though you (Draco) may be evil, you are still a genius and too smart not to see what a lost cause this Voldemort crap is. The guy is a lunatic; complete nutter, totally irrational, and anyone who takes an objective look at it, will see that even if he wins he loses. Besides Draco Malfoy is lord, he is not lorded over. Draco Malfoy bows before no man, much less some scaly ... lizard man. Let's say Voldemort wins and he makes you ... crowned prince of the empire. What are you the crown prince of? What is he the lord and master over? ...a wasteland. The population decimated, the economy and commerce in ruin, and the world a field of ashes. That makes you crown prince of ashes. That makes Voldemort lord and master of a wasteland; lord and master of a destroyed totally dysfunctional impoverished society. Is that what you had in mind for your future; crown prince of ashes?" Moderators please forgive the FF, but is says what I had to say in virtually the same words as if I had rewritten it. When Voldemort looks into the future to see what he has accomplished, I think all he sees is himself standing on the balcony of a palace while crowds of peasants bow down before him. That and himself sitting on a throne, while the DE's bow, scrape, and kiss his rosey red posterior. He's given no thought to governing, taxes, administrative duties, world affairs, infrastructure, the economy, commerce, or any of the other things necessary to run an orderly and successful country. All he cares about is being Lord and Master of the Universe, with no thought to the fact the the universe he will create is a total wreak and ruin. Such is the gross nearsightedness of a man with a god complex. And of course, his belief in his own infalability will be his down fall. Harry also points out to Draco to re-enforce how nuts Voldemort is, that if everyone of Voldemort's plans to take over the world didn't start will killing, capturing, or converting Harry, he could have taken over the world a half a dozen times already. So yes, after 13 (or 14 or 15) prosperous, stable, and productive years, I think some of the Death Eaters will turn against Voldemort when they see their comfortable little lives falling apart, and take a closer look a the likely future that Voldemort is offerring them. Just a thought. bboy_mn From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Thu May 15 22:42:12 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:42:12 -0000 Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57956 Darrin: > Let us assume for the moment that whatever the reason Salazar left > behind the basilisk, it was not a benevolent or harmless act. If I may ask, why exactly are we assuming this? You proceed to give evidence for it -- sort of -- in which case it doesn't need to be assumed, and I rather thought the point of Andrea13's post was that it wasn't necessarily a very good assumption. > Then why not take it with him when he left? Didn't he miss his > wittle Fido? Well, if it was supposed to defend the school.... > A defense that can only be unleashed and controlled via a > Parselmouth? When there -- apparently -- have been only two such > gifted people in the last 1,000 years? Er... well, first of all, we have names for three, Salazar, Riddle, and Harry (unless Hogwarts was founded far enough back that Salazar died before the thousand-year mark). Second, see the bit about Runespoors -- I suppose Rowling could have been careless, but it seems somewhat unlikely to me that Salazar Slytherin and Tom Riddle are responsible for all known discussions (or eavesdroppings) with Runespoors. I think the talent is rare, but not quite THAT rare. Tom Riddle is perhaps not always a terribly reliable source. Besides, isn't it just as illogical to leave an instrument of genocide/very extreme method of influencing admissions policies hanging around if it can only be unleashed by a Parselmouth? Going by the boa (which even seems to have known what its own sign said, indicating some acquired command of English and possibly reading depending on the angle), serpents can be pretty intelligent. Now, the basilisk seemed rather dense or possibly insane, granted, but that isn't a terribly unreasonable consequence of being locked in a chamber alone for about a thousand years and then meeting Little Lord Voldemort. (Perhaps we should be accusing Slytherin of cruelty to animals instead.) "persephone_kore" From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu May 15 23:11:18 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:11:18 -0000 Subject: E!Lupin wasRe: Dumbledore, Snape and Harry with a side of MD In-Reply-To: <20030515152146.36022.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57957 Pippin wrote: Lupin's own friends thought he was the spy. I can't believe it was solely because he is a werewolf. Becky commented: Well they all knew that SOMEBODY was a spy. I got a sneaky suspicion that nobody was trusting anybody right around that time! Tom adds: For the record, I *hate* Evil!Lupin, mainly for two reasons. One: because I really like Lupin. Two: because it's so believably presented and well thought-out that it seems nauseatingly possible the more that I think about it. Even Evil!McGonagall doesn't turn my stomach as much as this one does, `cause McGonagall, IMHO, isn't as likeable as Lupin. McGonagall = Evil is upsetting and would make me angry. Lupin = Evil is *heartbreaking,* and would probably make me cry. Anyways, as far as the air of suspicion goes, Lupin was just as suspect as everyone else was. PoA Ch.19: "Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume that's why you didn't tell me [that the Potters had switched Secret- Keepers], Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrew's head. "Forgive me, Remus," said Black. "Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. "And will you, in turn, forgive me for believing *you* were the spy?" [emphasis converted from italics] END QUOTE. And in GoF Ch.27, Sirius elaborates on this theme of mistrust: "Imagine that Voldemort's powerful now. You don't know who his supporters are, you don't know who's working for him and who isn't; you know he can control people so that they do terrible things without being able to stop themselves. You're scared for yourself, and your family, and your friends. Every week, news comes of more deaths, more disappearances, more torturing..." So I think that, basically, everyone suspected everyone. To be fair, it would seem that some alliances were able to withstand the suspicion, for instance, we've no indication that the Potters suspected Black, or that Black suspected the Potters. Which means that in the coming conflict, probably Harry will be able to *truly* trust only one or two people ? and we'll be lucky if both Ron and Hermione are in that number. Since, in Trelawney's words, "the Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever he was," (PoA, Ch.16) I think that we can assume that this conflict will be far, far worse than the last one ? more tragedy, more death, more suspicion and chaos and mistrust. And if Voldemort tore apart Harry's parents' group of friends, then I'd bet that he'll be able to achieve that again with Harry. It gives me the chills just thinking about it. -Tom From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 16 00:33:02 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:33:02 -0000 Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: <20030515224516.78318.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57958 : I wrote: > > I don't know if it only has to kill Muggle-borns. There have been plenty of slurs thrown around against "Muggle-Lovers" to make me think that just being a pureblood isn't necessarily protection enough. Protecting a mudblood > > could > > be sin enough in the eyes of a madman like V-Mort or Slythering. > Andrea: > Which is, IMO, one more indication that the basilisk wasn't the best idea if its purpose was slaughter of only certain people with a varying definition. > Me: No, my point was that Salazar (or V-Mort's interpretation, if you like) made a distinction as to what is pureblood. My read of that view is that if you have a Muggle ancestor somewhere back, you're not pure, in their eyes. The canon tells us that the legend is -- on page 114 -- that the horror within the Chamber would be used to "purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." I think that could easily include anyone but purebloods. > > Let us assume for the moment that whatever the reason Salazar left > > behind > the basilisk, it was not a benevolent or harmless act. > > Why? The only indication that it *wasn't* is a thousand year old >legend and the actions of his many-time-great-grandson who wasn't >even raised by the family and so wouldn't know any family stories >passed down, whether for or against Muggle-borns. He just had >whatever knowledge he learned from his research, and his own >prejudices formed by growing up in an orphanage after being rejected by a Muggle. He did research the thing extensively. And again, we are talking about the "Heir of Slytherin," are we not? This is the one chosen to open the thing. If we are to believe the Sorting Hat has essence of the founders, then Salazar at least had some say in this. If the Heir was just a descendant of Slytherin, then why couldn't dozens of other people over the years open the thing? And if it was opened, and the basilisk escaped, there would be a record in Hogwarts: A History. So my point is that the desires of Salazar and the actions of Riddle are not completely separated. I grant it is likely tenuous, but I think it is stronger than the idea that the basilisk is a weapon of defense. (But this brings something else up... more on that later) Who would have been the most likely attackers in Slytherins time? The Muggles, specifically, the Inquisition and other witch-hunters. To defend the school, it should have been charmed to attack Muggles, not Muggle-borns, and certainly not left to just roam free, attacking whomever. > > I am willing to concede that, although I believe Salazar to be a > > genocidal > loony for even leaving the damn thing behind, V-Mort has perhaps twisted Slytherins wishes. > > Thank you. :) I also will concede that it's fully possible that Salazar is a raving genocidal madman. But it's not canon, and I always feel > obliged when people treat it as such. It's simply one interpretation of still vague text. > I love you. You love me. We're a happy family. > > Then why not take it with him when he left? Didn't he miss his wittle > > Fido? > > *snickerfits* I actually have a fic where a magical serpent's very > complicated Parseltongue name is translated into English as "Fido". :) > I'm sure if the pet scenario was true, he'd miss it when he left, but it's a lot less practical to take a basilisk on a cross-country journey than keep it in a hidden room of a castle. And if it was meant for defense or was confined because it was a danger, then there's no reason he'd take it and every reason he *wouldn't*. OK, I'm coming around to the possibility of defense, but I'm not sure I can go with the pet thing. > And at the time he created the Chamber, Slytherin may have thought he and his descendants would *always* be at Hogwarts. We don't know how long the Founders were all together at Hogwarts before the last argument that split them. > Actually, we do, but it depends on your definition of "a few" and "a while." "For a few years, the founders worked in harmony together..." pg 114 Then disagreements sprang up..and "after a while." Pick a number. I say less than 50 years. > > I would agree it would have been a defense... for Salazar. I could see him thinking: Let the other three nitwits fight the invaders brought on by their Muggle-loving foolish ways, while I -- and perhaps the other Slyths, though that is not a requirement -- retire to my hideout and wait for the > > dust to settle. > > That would also be a possibility. But it still doesn't mean he was > actively advocating the deaths Muggle-borns and Muggle-lovers. It's reasonable to think each Founder would have a special defense for their own students. No one thinks there's anything wrong with Godric leaving a > sword for students in *his* House. The only difference was in how their respective students chose to use it. Harry could have just as easily gone on a mad rampage with that sword and killed off the Slytherins. Riddle used the basilisk to attack, Harry used the sword to defend. Neither is necessarily an indication of their House's Founder's original intentions. > > We're back to the Sorting Hat, which gave Harry the sword. Original intent is closer than you might give it credit for. OK, more on my follow up thought. I've asked this before, and it does tend to puncture my "Salazar is a nutjob" routine. Why does the hat still have Slytherin in it and why do the other houses put up with Slytherin? I maintain that the hat is a magical contract. Not even the combined power of Godric, Rowena and Helga could get rid of Salazar, since the essence of him was in the hat. BUT... if that's not the case, then there is obviously some reason Salazar's thoughts are still in the hat, and that is because even Godric doesn't think he's all that bad. Don't believe it, but in the interest of presenting both sides... Darrin -- Never let it be said I can't argue against myself. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 01:18:22 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516011822.4287.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57959 --- darrin_burnett wrote: > The canon tells us that the legend is -- on page 114 -- that the > horror within the Chamber would be used to "purge the school of all > who were unworthy to study magic." Well, my point was that the legend isn't necessarily accurate, after a thousand years. > He did research the thing extensively. And again, we are talking > about the "Heir of Slytherin," are we not? This is the one chosen to > open the thing. If we are to believe the Sorting Hat has essence of > the founders, then Salazar at least had some say in this. There's a lot of debate about just what it takes to be Heir of Slytherin, whether it's just bloodlines or if he's in some way chosen for beliefs, etc. Since there's no canon on this, there's no reason to assume he's the "heir" in anything other than the strictly bloodlines. Yes, he was chosen for Slytherin House by the Sorting Hat, because he's cunning and ambitious. Until the Sorting Song says, "Slytherin chose those who wanted to kill Muggle-borns," I'm reserving judgment on *that* matter. ;) As for research, if his "research" involved the thousand year old legend about killing Muggle-borns...well, who's to say his research was any more proof of Salazar's original intent than Binns'? He made his interpretation, which might or might not be Salazar's. I'm just saying that the two don't *necessarily* equal, not that they *can't*. > Who would have been the most likely attackers in Slytherins time? The > Muggles, specifically, the Inquisition and other witch-hunters. To > defend the school, it should have been charmed to attack Muggles, not > Muggle-borns, and certainly not left to just roam free, attacking > whomever. Ah, but it *wasn't* left to roam free, attacking whomever. For whatever reason, for a thousand years the basilisk was confined where it couldn't harm anyone but rats, until a budding homicidal maniac started to use it for his own reasons. > I love you. You love me. We're a happy family. Okay, I liked you until you started quoting Barney. Now you must die. > OK, I'm coming around to the possibility of defense, but I'm not sure > I can go with the pet thing. Me either. :) I just said that was one possibility. My personal favorite scenario is a combination of the defense and research theories, but I was just trying to illustrate that there are several reasons beyond GenocidalManiac!Salazar. > Actually, we do, but it depends on your definition of "a few" and "a > while." > > "For a few years, the founders worked in harmony together..." pg 114 > > Then disagreements sprang up..and "after a while." > > Pick a number. I say less than 50 years. So really, we have no canon. "A few" and "a while" are not decent indications of time. More than one year, less than eternity. Gosh, that narrows it down! *g* > We're back to the Sorting Hat, which gave Harry the sword. Original > intent is closer than you might give it credit for. The Hat gave Harry a sword because he's a true Gryffindor. That's all Dumbledore said, so it's the only canon we have. Even that, of course, is open to interpretation, and there may be other criteria that he didn't go into. And after it *gave* Harry the sword, Harry was still free to use it for whatever he wanted. He may have wanted it originally for defending himself against the basilisk, but could have then decided that he should just rid Hogwarts of threats like Malfoy and other Slytherins. > Why does the hat still have Slytherin in it and why do the other > houses put up with Slytherin? > > I maintain that the hat is a magical contract. Not even the combined > power of Godric, Rowena and Helga could get rid of Salazar, since the > essence of him was in the hat. First, thank you for supporting the idea of the Founders' essences in the Hat. It's a personal favorite of mine. :) Second, that's definitely a possibility. If the Goblet of Fire can be a binding contract, I don't see why the Sorting Hat couldn't be too. > BUT... if that's not the case, then there is obviously some reason > Salazar's thoughts are still in the hat, and that is because even > Godric doesn't think he's all that bad. I think that Slytherin's still a House at Hogwarts because the other three Founders recognized that the traits of cunning and ambition were also important to cultivate. I also think that sentiment, tradition, and sheer practicality ("You mean we have to reSort ALL these former Slytherins? And expand the dormitories? And reshuffle the classes? And--") also played a role. Even if a founding member of a group leaves (and even if it's under acrimonious circumstances), all traces of him aren't automatically eliminated. Andrea __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From patricia at obscure.org Fri May 16 01:50:05 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That was a basilisk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57960 On Thu, 15 May 2003, melclaros wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pegruppel" > wrote: > , hatched from an egg incubated under a toad. > > > Well actually *that* is a cocatrice. A very close relative of the > basilisk, but not a basilisk as such. According to Bullfinch's Mythology, the cockatrice and basilisk are the same creature. http://www.bulfinch.org/fables/bull36.html ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 16 03:09:57 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:09:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... References: Message-ID: <000e01c31b58$a20192f0$52ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 57961 I don't really have much to contribute to this fascinating conversation, but I did want to place this a little bit more correctly into history. Darrin wrote: > > Who would have been the most likely attackers in Slytherins time? The > Muggles, specifically, the Inquisition and other witch-hunters. To > defend the school, it should have been charmed to attack Muggles, not > Muggle-borns, and certainly not left to just roam free, attacking > whomever. Slytherin's time was a thousand years ago. That would place it in the late 900's/early 1000's. 1066 was the year Britain was invaded by, IIRC, the Normans. When this invasion occured, Britain underwent a huge change in language and most likely culture. My memory on this is too spotty to really give details about this time period, but one thing I am aware of is the Inquisition was a few centuries later. Not saying there was no persecution whatsoever of anybody during these times, but the era of the witch hunts that we are familiar with was quite a bit later. And depending exactly when the four founders got together and created Hogwarts, it could have occured before 1066, placing it in the latter part of the Dark Ages, a period where many were poorly educated and would be more likely to believe in and accept magic. True history buffs feel free to hop in and help me out here. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From mdemeran at hotmail.com Fri May 16 03:21:39 2003 From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:21:39 -0500 Subject: FILK: Harry Do Take Care Message-ID: <004a01c31b5a$43f1ea00$6501a8c0@MFD> No: HPFGUIDX 57962 In my continuing effort not to study for my finals (one tomorrow, two next week), I wrote this based on Savannah, Fare You Well by Jimmy Buffett. Harry Do Take Care (with thanks to Gail for her help) Scene: Hermione pads down the stairs carrying a few things to study. It's obvious that she hasn't been sleeping well. Settling at her favorite table, she starts working on her homework, but her mind quickly wanders elsewhere. Softly she begins to sing: There's something out there tonight Some kind of chill in the weather Somewhere Voldemort's mixing hate and fury together I read that the dark forces of the Wizarding World are on the rise The end could be forever Now, you could wait another year or two But what's the use of stalling Deep in the castle, even holdout Snape starts lying Lately every night above Lavender's snores I hear your destiny calling It's such an ancient magic And you alone are the heir But all ours dreams and fears are held in your unshed tears Harry, do take care In the Tri-Wiz you won last year Diggory dead, you stretched on the ground. While we waited for the fury to die down The daily howlers rushing to me were wild and upsetting That Ron could not calm down It's such an ancient magic And you alone are the heir But all ours dreams and fears are held in your unshed tears Harry, do take care Shaking herself out of her reverie, she goes back to studying, never noticing Harry sitting quietly on a couch next to the fire. Ok, I guess I will go and study for tomorrow. Yuck! -Meg Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at: As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 16 03:39:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 03:39:32 -0000 Subject: Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the Basilisk was such a good idea... In-Reply-To: <000e01c31b58$a20192f0$52ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > I don't really have much to contribute to this fascinating conversation, but > I did want to place this a little bit more correctly into history. > > :) Now me: I should have spelled out what I meant a bit more clearly. Given that the references are to Hogwarts being founded "1,000 years ago," and allowing that a reference to "1,000 years" could mean anywhere from 900 to 1,100, I'd say the school was founded around the year 1000. The Inquisition was indeed a few centuries later. Given that D-Dore has lived as long as he has, I think a case could be made that the four founders lived a while, but I'm not going to reach. Very unseemly. Anyway, I shouldn't have used the I-word and just left it at Muggles being the ones persecuting the wizards. And since we know from PoA that many wizards laughed their way through the Inquisition, it was doubly stupid to use. It is entirely possible, as I said, that Salazar really did have the best interest of the school at heart when he wanted only purebloods. And to be fair, given the tenor of the times, it is possible Godric's ideas about open admission could have been fairly revolutionary. But since Binns only talks about those Goblins in history class, we don't know. Where I start to bog down is on the idea that the Basilisk, a killing creature if there ever was one, is left behind as a benevolent act. Defense I can understand a bit easier, but I find it more plausible that Salazar, by the time he was ready to leave, had more of an "every pureblood for himself" attitude and the Basilisk was for HIS defense, not anyone else's. Perhaps he meant the Heir of Slytherin to lead a takeover of the school... Regardless, I do hold closer to the genocidal maniac theory, although it is open to interpretation. And at this point in the History of Magic, now that V-Mort is back, the Slytherin creed is genocide. So, contradicting the genocidal maniac theory, just for fun, maybe my good Slyth will be Salazar himself? As the essence of Godric continues to help Harry be dropping useful weapons in his path, perhaps the essence of Salazar will, at the critical moment, deny Voldemort assistance. And then he looks at the TRUE Heir of Slytherin. Resourceful, determined, a certain disgregard for the rules, ambitious, desperate to prove something... Best I say it in an acro... SALAZAR SLYTHERIN Sinister Ancestral Loony Actually Zooms Around, Rehabilitating Slytherin Legend. Young Trainee Hermione Emerges, Reclaiming Inheritance Now. Darrin -- NOW that would be a good Slyth. :) From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Fri May 16 05:38:04 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:38:04 -0500 Subject: Filk: Riddle's Search Message-ID: to the tune of "I Need to Know," from the broadway musical Jekyll and Hyde. Scene: Tom Riddle, shortly after leaving Hogwarts, is in a dark dungeon, surrounded by bubbling cauldrons, caged serpents, and other, less identifiable, items. Riddle is in the midst of his experiments to find a secret to immortality. He opens an ancient and secret tome, and as he pores over the pages, he sings: Riddle: "I need to know The nature of this 'death' that we cannot control. I need to know Why mans content to let himself be less than whole. Why does he stagnate in weakness and 'mercy?' What is it makes him be less than he should? Why does he choose not to reach his potential? A man is weak If his soul will speak about 'good.'" finding what he has sought, Riddle begins brewing a potion. He takes out a vial of silvery liquid obviously unicorn blood and measures out a beakerful. He continues singing. Riddle: 'I need to find A way to flee the death that's intertwined with man. I need to try To make myself the greatest wizard if I can. One thing is certain - their 'evil' is Power. Strength I must use if I ever must win. I must find ways to prolong my existence And if I must I'll resort to the darkness of Sin!! I need to go Where no man has ventured before To search for the key to the door That will end all this foolish and empty decay! But how to go? I need to know!" Riddle glances at the window. Outside, people pass by, blissfully ignorant of the darkness stewing inside. Disdainfully, Riddle turns from the window and continues to brew. Riddle: "None shall guide me. I know how to succeed! With this potion inside me, All mankind soon shall follow Lord Voldemort's lead! For I can see The truth other men cannot see And Ill be things that others can't be For Ive courage to go where no angel will go! And I will go!! I need to know! Riddle takes up the potion he has brewed and drinks it in one swallow, throwing the beaker aside, where it shatters against the wall. He convulses, and falls to the floor. His skin begins to pale, and his eyes, glaring in disdain at his mortal forms weakness, begin to glow a deep, bloody-hued red Hobbit_guy, whos GOT to find another musical to filk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From jhlupin at hotmail.com Fri May 16 04:51:12 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 04:51:12 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57965 Sniping- > It could be an "heir" issue. If we want to believe that what > Voldemort told Harry is true. That Lily didn't have to die. Then the > lineage must go back through James' bloodline. So why not remove > James before Harry's birth? I can only think of two reasons: James' > lineage wasn't known (or widely known). Or, Voldemort didn't realize > that any lineage was a concern of his (that is, until Trelawney's > prediction). And this information must only have come to > Voldemort's attention after Lily was already pregnant (Heck, maybe > it was even Peter who spilled the beans?). > > Also, if the lineage went through Lily's bloodlines, than Voldie > would have also been after Petunia and Dudley, and we've seen no > canon evidence of that so far. > > So, no, Lily did not have to die. But Harry was a threat and James > was a threat and both needed to be removed. > I am unaware of canon-proof that James was a target of Voldemort. We know Voldemort states Lily didn't have to die, but that doesn't mean James had to die himself. He likely died defending Harry. Harry is the threat to LV not because of the bloodlines of *either* of his parents, but because of the bloodline of *each* of his parents. I believe Harry is the *heir* of both Gryfindor and Slytherin - G from dad and S from his mother. I believe Lily was not muggle born but was raised as a muggle born as her parents were themselves in hiding. Petunia, a squib, therefore has a great hatred of the magical world and resentment toward her sister. We know nothing else of Lily and Petunia's family. Harry's gift of Parseltongue came not from the AK curse, but from his mother. My questions are therefore: 1) Are there heirs of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw alive in this time frame? 2) Will the return of the heirs of each of the four founders signal the oft hinted *end of Hogwarts....* JH From catherinemck at hotmail.com Fri May 16 09:59:04 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:59:04 -0000 Subject: Evil Lupin/ Evil Molly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57966 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stardancerofas" wrote: > Maria Alena wrote: I don't think there is a character that hasn't been > accused of being evil... > > Lorrie: I know, I've been reading through the archives, and am amazed > at some of them. > > Maria Alena also wrote: Evil! Molly doesn't mean that she has the Dark > Mark or goes around murdering people... > > Lorrie again: AHA! But how do we know that?! Have we seen/ read of her > in short sleeves? I can't remember reading it myself, but my brain > seems to be on vacation this week (too Hot in Mobile AL.) She could > have the Dark Mark concealed. After all, Lord V's Inner Circle people > do have the DM, but what about others? Is there canon to prove or > refute the fact that 'supporters' have it/ don't have it as well? Catherine: I don't think so... And you're right about the short sleeves, I dont think it's been mentioned. On the other hand, there hasn't been a deliberate hint "despite the baking heat, Molly was wearing a long-sleeved blouse. 'Red-haired, pale-skinned people have to be very careful in the sun, dear' she said to Hermione" But Molly is a witch. Just because the male DEs aren't smart enough to wear make-up, doesn't mean she isn't. You can get some pretty good stuff these days. Or a simple glamour charm? > Oh, one more thing, when I said "you people" I do hope no one got > insulted by that. I merely meant, the people on this list who have > been here so very much longer than I have. Hope that clears it up. I'm > a worry-wart by nature. (Big grin). > This is the best list I have ever found, and the theories that > fly by an at incredible rate...I think I need to brush up on my > reasoning skills. > > Lorrie (who needs a sun hat now.) I'm new too. Hence my ability to suggest preposterous theories only if they don't demand an understanding of the ins and outs of MAGIC DISHWASHER! Catherine From catherinemck at hotmail.com Fri May 16 09:42:33 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:42:33 -0000 Subject: Evil-Molly Theories In-Reply-To: <006f01c31b2a$a6940240$3f560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > I've got to say that the argument earlier that Molly Weasley is Ever So Evil > was ingenious. As a long-time reader of mysteries that do their best to > make the least obvious person the villain, I find theories about the > Evil-ness of un-obvious people intriguing (and I think I may be the list > member who came up with the "Hermione Granger is Ever So Evil and plans to > be the next Big Dark Sorceress" theory) Oh, I've got to read that! > > However, what might be Molly's motives for being Ever So Evil? > > Could she have been having an affair with a DE---like the one that was > living, under her whole family's noses, in her house for years and years? > (And how _did_ the Weasleys acquire Wormtail/Scabbers, anyway? Inquiring > minds want to know!) > > No. NO. Evil she may be---but Molly's still a woman, and I can't see _any_ > woman going for that cringing little twerp. I know of people in the fandom > who crush on the unlikeliest people, but I haven't seen anybody yet going > all gooey over Wormtail. Me: A good point. I agree she can't possibly be having an affair with Peter - a man that even the most Bent of people couldn't make sexy. (Any takers for the Challenge?) How about Lucius Malfoy? They're both pure-blood and could even have been at Hogwarts together. Maybe Lucius' hatred of Arthur is related to Arthur's winning the seductive Molly? His loathing of Muggles merely a loathing of anything that interests that Arthur Weasley who stole his girl? No, it doesn't even make a good ludicrous argument. > > However---she could be very ambitious for herself _and_ her family. Being > Ever So Evil does _not_ preclude being a good, warm, loving, caring parent, > and she might well feel that the "good" side won't ever let her children get > to their maximum potential. Let's face it, the Powers That Be in the WW are > corrupt, incompetent, inept, and about as much use in a crisis as a > one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest. > > Or she could be out for _revenge._ We don't know much about her family, do > we? What if, say, some kin of hers were falsely accused and thrown into > Azkaban without a trial during the Voldemort Years? Here I am more convinced. It's family, and Molly is very fond of her family. Where are the Weasley grandparents? Why doesn't Ron stay with them when Mum and Dad visit Bill and Charlie? DId Uncle B-- (can?t remember his name) really die after seeing a Grim, or was this a convenient way of explaining to the children why he wasn?t around any more? What about the Weasley cousin dropped from GoF? Did JKR think she risked giving the game away too soon? Re. Ersatz Harry?s point that Barty Crouch said that he had summoned the Mark. Not an insurmountable problem. Veritaserum makes one reveal the truth. But the whole truth? The truth concealed by a memory charm? Maybe there?s a counter-potion. I bet Molly?s pretty good at Potions if her cooking is anything to go by. Ah, that?s why Fudge let the Dementor?s get to Barty! Fudge is having an affair with Evil Molly, and knows that if the Ministry wizards have a go at him, they might break down the defenses that prevented Veritaserum revealing all. Our source on the workings of VS. is Snape needling Harry; he surely didn?t tell the boy everything about it. Catherine (who doesn't _really_ believe Molly is evil, but it's darn good fun to speculate) From YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com Fri May 16 10:42:46 2003 From: YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com (vivamus42) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:42:46 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57968 This is my first post, so please forgive me if it is in the wrong place. I've read much discussion about a possible relationship between V and Lily Potter, but something just hadn't seemed right, until it finally dawned on me what I was missing. Various theories include V wanted to save Lily as a prize for Snape (or someone else, maybe Pettigrew?) that he was some kind of blood relation to Lily, that they had been lovers at some point, or even that he was planning all along to kill the woman, but wanted her to step aside so he could kill her baby first. I'm sure there have been other theories I haven't read. Here is why I think there MUST be a blood relationship of some kind between Lily and Voldemort. Canon: When Voldemort went to kill Harry, he had just killed James. Lily knew he was there to kill Harry. Voldemort told Lily to stand aside. When she didn't obey him right away, he told her to stand aside *again.* When she didn't stand aside after (at least) two warnings, he killed her, then tried to kill Harry. Lily was Head Girl at Hogwarts, and was described by someone (McGonagall?) as being one of the finest witches of the age. That may have been simply a comment on Lily's moral qualities, or it may have been a comment on her magical abilities. Either way, she was no slouch as Head Girl. As a loose comparison, think of Hermione -- not as a fourth year student but as a fully grown, powerful and accomplished witch -- being told to stand aside by someone who had just murdered her husband, so he could murder her child. Would she just stand there? Can you imagine what Hermione would *do* to someone in circumstances like that? Just because V is powerful doesn't mean he is immune to attack. That indicates that V had a strong reason for keeping Lily alive, because he was taking a very large chance in not killing her first. There has been a ton of speculation as to why he might want to spare Lily. That's all been gone over before, though. What just struck me is that from V's POV, V must have *trusted* that she wouldn't blast him, after watching him kill her husband and baby. V is definitely maniacally obsessed with gaining power, but he is no fool. There HAD to be a reason why he would trust that Lily wouldn't kill him. I can think of only two explanations for V to reach that conclusion (that Lily wouldn't kill him). One is that there is a blood relationship between them, and the other is that something else created a magical bond between them, that would make Lily most unlikely to kill V. A previous romantic interest most certainly would *not* do it. It's hard to imagine *anything* other than a blood relationship that would make V trust that he could murder a powerful witch's husband and son in front of her and live through it. The closest one I can come up with is that Lily saved V's life at some point. That would create that unbreakable magical bond between them, and would be why V didn't want to kill her -- and maybe even was why her sacrifice of her life for her son would give Harry the protection against avada kedavra from V. While that makes sense from several different perspectives, I don't think that one is right, either, because it would show why V wouldn't want to kill Lily, but it wouldn't show why he would trust that Lily wouldn't kill him. That leaves a blood relationship as the most likely candidate I see. Any other ideas? "Vivamus" From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri May 16 12:36:10 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:36:10 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57969 Ok, was over at TLC looking at all the pictures they recently posted, and in particular the back cover of the special edition. For those who haven't seen it, it shows what looks like the wing of an owl flying by an old, boarded up house. And I have two thoughts on what that house might be: The Shrieking Shack or the Riddle house. Both present interesting possibilites. In book 3, while the shack plays a prominent role, we don't learn much about it's history. Maybe there is something more to it? My guess actually is that maybe it was/is the headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix (assuming it some type of group). In particular, if you want to go with the assumption that the OotP is group that fought Voldemort (either formed for that purpose or a group who comes together in times of desperate trouble). In the fomer case, most people are afraid of the shack because of the rumors spread around in Lupin's time, so when Voldemort arrises, it might make a perfect secret headquarters. In the later cases, it might already have a repuation before Lupin's time, hence Dumbledore makes use of that reputation in protecting Lupin's secret. On the other hand, it it's the Riddle House then that presents a whole new slew of possibilities. Once again, my guess is that Voldemort is still using his father's old house as base of operations in book 5 and when Harry has to finally confront him its there. Serena From michele_hahn at ept.lu Fri May 16 12:31:16 2003 From: michele_hahn at ept.lu (=?iso-8859-1?q?Michele=20Hahn?=) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:31:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Snaplogy Message-ID: <20030516123116.39454.qmail@web41707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57970 By reading certain posts about the fifth man in Godric's Hollow, and mostly the theory that Snape could have been there, made me go over all the questions and mysteries Snape is commanding, but for the first time, I came up with a theory which could fit exactly to the whole mysteries. This has probably been brought up before, so don't AK me for it, but correct my dilettantic ramblings. < Ducking from rotten vegetables : ) > Questions : 1. What is Snape excelling in ? 2. What made Snape betray Voldemort ? 3. Why is his hair greasy and why doesn't he wash his teeth ? 4. What makes Dumbledore trust Snape ? 5. Why does Snape immediately hack on Harry's celebrity ? Rambling ahead : 1. Snape might be the best potions master alive in the WW. He can brew one of the most tricky potions the Wolfsbanepotion. He's not especially good in teaching, IMHO he is more of a research type. His ability with potions might also be the reason why such a young man was so high in the DE ranks. As we saw in GoF, it's a potion which brings Voldemort back to life. The elixir of live gained from the Philosopher Stone is also a potion. This brings me to assuming that potions are important in Voldemort's quest for immortality. Snape must have been researching to find an equivalently powerful potion replacing the elixir of life. 2. There must have been an important event that made him change his mind. I don't want to put out theories , build new ships or take a ticket for any of the existing ships. So please insert your own theory here LOL. I assume that he was the spy who tipped Dumbledore that Voldemort wanted to kill the Potters. 3. Snape has made a discovery, not elixir of live, but a potion that can protect you against AK. I presume it as an unguent you have to put on the skin, like moisturing cream. The problem with it was that he couldn't produce enough of it to protect all the Potters. The Potters decided to use it on Harry to save him at least. I think we know 2 of the major ingredients for the potion already : a. greasy black hair b. a bit of very filthy used dental floss 4. Dumbledore knows that it was Snape and Snape alone who saved Harry. He demands Snape to keep the potion quiet, he doesn't want anyone to know it could be made. In the same thoughts he urges Snape to stop to much grooming, so that there would always be enough ingredients on hand . 5. Harry gets all the credits for Snape's work ... Snape feels bad, he just want's a good shower all the time. He sees that everybody is fussing about Harry and no one is paying attention to him ... Poor old scruffy scientist, getting bitter and all. Ooooooh sorry I'm hurt -conforting too much on our ever so loved snappy Snape. ; P Moepi from Luxembourg Who desperatly wants to keep talking or reading about Snape, waiting to hear more soon (21. June is still too far away) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Fri May 16 12:51:07 2003 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:51:07 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57971 > I am unaware of canon-proof that James was a target of Voldemort. We > know Voldemort states Lily didn't have to die, but that doesn't mean > James had to die himself. He likely died defending Harry. Harry is > the threat to LV not because of the bloodlines of *either* of his > parents, but because of the bloodline of *each* of his parents. I > believe Harry is the *heir* of both Gryfindor and Slytherin - G from > dad and S from his mother. I believe Lily was not muggle born but was > raised as a muggle born as her parents were themselves in hiding. > Petunia, a squib, therefore has a great hatred of the magical world > and resentment toward her sister. We know nothing else of Lily and > Petunia's family. Harry's gift of Parseltongue came not from the AK > curse, but from his mother. > > My questions are therefore: > > 1) Are there heirs of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw alive in this time > frame? > > 2) Will the return of the heirs of each of the four founders signal > the oft hinted *end of Hogwarts....* > > JH Maria: Interesting theory. But I also believe as well that James needn't have died either... I always thought he only died because he tried to protect Harry and his wife by fighting the Dark Lord. I think the heir theory is just a little too predictable, it's been used so many times. I think JKR has an even better plot up her sleeve. I think either, Voldemort wanted Harry killed because of the Order of the Phoenix, which I think is not a group, but centred around Fawkes. (I can't be bothered going into my theory of the OOTP at the moment, lol. But it involves Fawkes keeping the order between the good and evil that is created with Harry and Voldemort. That's why I think Fawkes originally gave two feathers.) Or, because Harry would one day in the future create an alliance between the Wizarding and Muggle world... Professor Trelawney's first Prediction? Lily, Lily, Lily... Argh!!! Could it not be that Voldemort wanted to keep her alive to use her in his plan for great power? What if he wanted to use her because of her eyes? Then again JH, your theory is interesting. Your questions. Are there heirs of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw alive in this time > frame? I reckon they are alive... just not relevent to the plot at the moment... But if Voldemort is to be destroyed in the end, that's when I think they will show up. > 2) Will the return of the heirs of each of the four founders signal > the oft hinted *end of Hogwarts....* Hmmm, interesting it might, it might not... However, it could start a new era of peace, or help defeat the Dark lord, if they are revealed. Maria. From filo_roll at yahoo.com Fri May 16 12:19:12 2003 From: filo_roll at yahoo.com (filo_roll) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:19:12 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort + Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" wrote: > Various theories include V wanted to save Lily as a prize for Snape > (or someone else, maybe Pettigrew?) that he was some kind of blood > relation to Lily, that they had been lovers at some point, or even > that he was planning all along to kill the woman, but wanted her to > step aside so he could kill her baby first. filo_roll: I don't think that V wanted a Griffindor to have anything to do with a Slytherin, especially Snape, his prized Death Eater, or even himself! I just can't see Lily and V together! Blood relation? The only possible link is through V's muggle father. But I don't think he really gives a rat's ass about blood relations considering he killed his parents. vivamus42: > Here is why I think there MUST be a blood relationship of some kind > between Lily and Voldemort. > Canon: When Voldemort went to kill Harry, he had just killed James. Lily knew he was there to kill Harry. Voldemort told Lily to stand aside. When she didn't obey him right away, he told her to stand aside *again.* When she didn't stand aside after (at least) two warnings, he killed her, then tried to kill Harry. filo_roll: Perhaps V wanted to save (as in keep for later use, rather than save her life) Lily because she was great at Charms and he needed a powerful witch to help him charm the world. But since, she didn't listen to him, and considering his relationships with people who don't adhere to his orders, he decided to simply get rid of her. vivamus42: > Lily was Head Girl at Hogwarts, and was described by someone > (McGonagall?) as being one of the finest witches of the age. > As a loose comparison, think of Hermione -- not as a fourth year > student but as a fully grown, powerful and accomplished witch -- > being told to stand aside by someone who had just murdered her > husband, so he could murder her child. Would she just stand > there? Can you imagine what Hermione would *do* to someone in > circumstances like that? filo_roll: Hermoine would certainly stand there, because she would know about that old magic Lily used to protect Harry. That's why Lily just stood there, she had to die for that magic to work to protect Harry. As to the comparison of Hermione and Lily, I think that in Harry's subconscious mind, Hermione sort of represents Lily, especailly when she mothers and fusses over him. However, I don't really know much about that psychoanalytical stuff (so don't kill me here), but I think there's got to be some Freudian, Oedipus complex aspect to Harry's relationship with Hermione. Maybe. vivamus42: >That would create that unbreakable magical bond between them, and would be why V didn't want to kill her -- and maybe even was why her sacrifice of her life for her son would give Harry the protection against avada kedavra from V. filo_roll: I thought it was some ancient magic? vivamus42: > While that makes sense from several different perspectives, I don't think that one is right, either, because it would show why V wouldn't want to kill Lily, but it wouldn't show why he would trust that Lily wouldn't kill him. filo_roll: Perhaps Lily didn't have her wand with her? Or V shot her wand out of her hands? V probably had the biggest ego and thought no way could a fragile woman like Lily kill him, let alone a baby! I don't think trust was an issue with V. Trust no one. filo_roll From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 16 14:01:13 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:01:13 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" wrote: > This is my first post, so please forgive me if it is in the wrong > place. > Welcome. Looks like it's in the right spot to me. > Canon: When Voldemort went to kill Harry, he had just killed James. > Lily knew he was there to kill Harry. Voldemort told Lily to stand > aside. When she didn't obey him right away, he told her to stand > aside *again.* When she didn't stand aside after (at least) two > warnings, he killed her, then tried to kill Harry. This is a classic case of two views of the same canon. Where you see two warnings as being a real effort to move Lily (and to be fair, it was probably more than what he usually did), I think it was a pretty poor effort if he really wanted to kill Harry without killing her. I think he could have used Crucio to paralyze her with pain (or that body bind thing first-year Hermione could do, for that matter), Banishing to slam her into the wall, Summoning to pull Harry to him, the ropes from the wand thing Snape uses, Imperius curse to force her to move (given Harry's aptitude for resisting it, though, this probably wouldn't have been all that effective) and probably a dozen other methods I'm not thinking of. This indicates that if he had a reason for wanting to spare her, it was a flimsy and easily discarded reason (which gives more credence to the "save her for me, Master" bit from one of his followers. What does V-Mort care about his followers' playthings?) > Lily was Head Girl at Hogwarts, and was described by someone > (McGonagall?) as being one of the finest witches of the age. That > may have been simply a comment on Lily's moral qualities, or it may > have been a comment on her magical abilities. Either way, she was no > slouch as Head Girl. That is true, but we're also talking about her opponent being the brightest student ever at Hogwarts AND with at least 40 years more experience. James was no slouch either and he died pretty quickly. Just because V is powerful doesn't mean he > is immune to attack. No, he certainly isn't immune, but in PoA, Harry's memories, spurred by the dementor, indicate Lily wasn't attacking. pg 134 UK (Grim Defeat) "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead--" Later on the page. "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy..." Obviously we don't know for sure that this is what really happened, but I tend to believe this is Harry's subconscious memories, and they are fairly accurate. And in the first film, the James and Lily death scene, which Lexicon (I believe) considers canon because JKR wrote it, Lily wasn't attacking. Possibly the sacrifice counter-charm needed Lily to be a non-violent resister here. I don't know. But I don't believe V-Mort would have had a reason to think he was in great danger and needed to kill her to survive. That indicates a more deliberate and cold-blooded act in killing her. > That's all been gone over before, though. What just struck me is > that from V's POV, V must have *trusted* that she wouldn't blast him, > after watching him kill her husband and baby. V is definitely > maniacally obsessed with gaining power, but he is no fool. There > HAD to be a reason why he would trust that Lily wouldn't kill him. > > I can think of only two explanations for V to reach that conclusion > (that Lily wouldn't kill him). One is that there is a blood > relationship between them, and the other is that something else > created a magical bond between them, that would make Lily most > unlikely to kill V. A previous romantic interest most certainly > would *not* do it. But again, I think he killed her awfully quickly, considering what other options must have been at his command. > That leaves a blood relationship as the most likely candidate I see. One more thing. For this to work, it has to be not only a blood relationship, but a special one. Remember, V-Mort killed his father and grandparents easily enough. > Any other ideas? > Darrin -- No other ideas, but got any good band names, Vivamus? From etyksm at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 16 13:47:16 2003 From: etyksm at yahoo.co.uk (etyksm) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:47:16 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" wrote: > This is my first post, so please forgive me if it is in the wrong > place. > > I've read much discussion about a possible relationship between V and > Lily Potter, but something just hadn't seemed right, until it finally > dawned on me what I was missing. > > Various theories include V wanted to save Lily as a prize for Snape > (or someone else, maybe Pettigrew?) that he was some kind of blood > relation to Lily, that they had been lovers at some point, or even > that he was planning all along to kill the woman, but wanted her to > step aside so he could kill her baby first. I'm sure there have been > other theories I haven't read. Interesting theory, however I think there could be an alternative reason why Voldermort did not want to kill Lilly. Appologies if this has been suggested before but I challenge anyone to read EVERY message that has been posted :-) Could Voldermort have had a life debt to Lilly? i.e. had Lilly saved his life in the past? In which case he may not have wanted to kill her because of the magical bond between them. Now I could go on about the potential impact of this on the Lilly died to save Harry plot and the further twists this could bring but I have to do SOME work today. As for worrying about Lilly killing him, she has already saved his life once (not sure if this creates a magical bond meaning she can't kill him now?), but also he (Voldermort) is a very powerful wizard at this stage (more powerful than anyone except dumbledore we are led to beleive) so probablly would not be worried about most wizards trying to kill him (In fact if he had been worried, would he have attacked the Potters who we are led to beleive were powerful wizards if he was worried about the impact of any attack they might launch on him) Anyone got any thoughts? Is this possible? What impact would this have on the "Lilly died to save Harry" implications? S p.s. If this has been discussed before could someone who has been around longer than me point me in the direction of the posts, Thanks. From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 16 14:34:29 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:34:29 -0000 Subject: Snaplogy In-Reply-To: <20030516123116.39454.qmail@web41707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57975 Michelle wrote: > Rambling ahead : > > 1. Snape might be the best potions master alive in the WW. He can brew one of the most tricky potions the Wolfsbanepotion. He's not especially good in teaching, IMHO he is more of a research type. His ability with potions might also be the reason why such a young man was so high in the DE ranks. As we saw in GoF, it's a potion which brings Voldemort back to life. The elixir of live gained from the Philosopher Stone is also a potion. This brings me to assuming that potions are important in Voldemort's quest for immortality. Snape must have been researching to find an equivalently powerful potion replacing the elixir of life. Reasonable. V-Mort would obviously want someone like that around. Snape certainly fits the bill. > 2. There must have been an important event that made him change his mind. I don't want to put out theories , build new ships or take a ticket for any of the existing ships. So please insert your own theory here LOL. > Mine? Snape was asked to do something, or overheard something, that made him change his ways. Don't know what yet, but my money is on he was ordered to do something he couldn't do. > I assume that he was the spy who tipped Dumbledore that Voldemort wanted to kill the Potters. Again, reasonable. An assumption, but one that fits. > 3. Snape has made a discovery, not elixir of live, but a potion that can protect you against AK. I presume it as an unguent you have to put on the skin, like moisturing cream. The problem with it was that he couldn't produce enough of it to protect all the Potters. The Potters decided to use it on Harry to save him at least. Hmmm.... Ok, working with it. > I think we know 2 of the major ingredients for the potion already : > > a. greasy black hair > > b. a bit of very filthy used dental floss OK, now you're just being goofy. ;) BUT... what if wormswood and whatever else Snape was taunting Harry with was involved? Snape's own private joke. > 4. Dumbledore knows that it was Snape and Snape alone who saved Harry. He demands Snape to keep the potion quiet, he doesn't want anyone to know it could be made. In the same thoughts he urges Snape to stop to much grooming, so that there would always be enough ingredients on hand . Well, we know he was greasy-haired from his first year at Hogwarts, from Sirius' description, so maybe not too much ordering or urging was needed. > 5. Harry gets all the credits for Snape's work ... > > Snape feels bad, he just want's a good shower all the time. He sees that everybody is fussing about Harry and no one is paying attention to him ... > > Poor old scruffy scientist, getting bitter and all. OK, I have to say I don't agree, and not because I knock down old Snapey whenever I can. :) Well, not just because. To me, the most pivotal event of the series is Lily sacrificing herself for Harry. Dumbledore has told Harry that is what saved him, in the speech at the end of PS/SS, and remember, that is the speech where he told Harry he wouldn't lie, might not tell everything, but wouldn't lie. So for this to work, D-Dore's a liar, even after he said he wouldn't lie. Possible, but still hard to swallow. Also, one would think that the whole life debt thing between Snape and James would pretty much go bye-bye if Snape really rubbed some lotion on Harry's butt and saved his life, wouldn't it? This theme of a mother's love, a Muggle-born mother's love, saving Harry is through the books. V-Mort has to essentially steal that protection by stealing Harry's blood to counteract it. More importantly, I find myself resisting the idea that Lily's sacrifice was aided by a potion, or a cream, or another spell. I have heard a theory, similar to yours, that Snape created a potion that Lily took to ensure the sacrifice would work. I resist that one too. The sacrifice is the strongest action of love we have in the books. Literally, sacrificing herself so her son could become stronger. I don't want anyone, not Snape, not D-Dore, not James, not anyone, to be part of that. But that is what I want, rather than what I can disprove. Your theory, for the most part, does have merit. Darrin -- Snape's Life-Saving Skin Cream. Boy, you just bet he's ready to patent that. From emeleel at juno.com Fri May 16 15:08:09 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:08:09 -0500 Subject: JKR's writing vs story Message-ID: <20030516.100810.-878689.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57976 The Amazing Skeptic asks: "What is it in the *writing* that sets HP apart?" For me, it's the tremendous detail that she puts into her world, without being tedious. I'm a lover of several genres of literature, but by far my favorites in any genre are the series books. I love to get to really know characters and their settings initimately. JKR gives us so many little tidbits and details that add up to a fully fleshed-out world, but she does it so well that it's not like getting hit with lists and lists of "stuff". Melanie (Who also loves Sherlock Holmes, Nero Wolfe, Hercule Poiroit, James Qwilleran, the world of Pern, the world of Xanth, Orson Scott Card's "Earth's Homecoming" series, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and so many, many more series it's hard to name them all!) Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Fri May 16 15:28:00 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:28:00 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57977 Serena: Ok, was over at TLC looking at all the pictures they recently posted, and in particular the back cover of the special edition. For those who haven't seen it, it shows what looks like the wing of an owl flying by an old, boarded up house. And I have two thoughts on what that house might be: The Shrieking Shack or the Riddle house. Me(Bill): Well, the building had four floors, so I doubt that it is the Shrieking Shack. The term 'shack' implies something smaller. I do agree that the image fits the description of the Riddle house quite nicely. One thing that I noticed is that if you look at the spine of the book, right at the top, on the fourth floor, (or attic) you see a brightly lit window with the shadow of a man looking out. You-Know- Who? Bill From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 16 15:39:21 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:39:21 -0000 Subject: Royal!Harry with an acronym Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57978 As I've mentioned previously, I've been meaning to start canon combing to see if I could find support for this notion of Harry being some kind of hidden king within the wizarding world, analogous to Aragorn in LOTR. I'm being a bit loose when I say "king"; maybe "chief wizard" would be closer to it, perhaps the rightful heir of Merlin himself. Last night I got to spend a little while hunting through CoS for some clues, though I haven't yet done this with the other books. Before I mention what I found, I have to note that no good (or bad) theory is complete without an acronym. So I offer up HIS SWORD (Harry Is Some Secret Wizard Of "Royal" Descent). Feel free to just use Royal!Harry if that's easier to remember, or maybe MerlinHeir!Harry. Now let me go to the bits and pieces I found. They're mildly -- but only very mildly -- intriguing. 1. Harry pulls the sword from the Sorting Hat. Very Arthurian. Of course, Harry needs it to kill the basilisk rather than to give it to his foster brother Sir Kay (that's what happened with the Sword in the Stone), but it's not a big metaphorical jump to go from "a true Gryffindor" to "the rightful king of England" or whatever the operative phrase was in the Arthur story. Incidentally, King Arthur's parents also died when he was very young, though he was, as far as I recall, not raised by a near relative. Merlin deposited Arthur with his foster parents, though I suspect that they were at least friends of Arthur's father Uther. Note also that the Sword in the Stone was not Arthur's only sword; he obtained Excalibur from a mysterious woman's hand in a lake, and it was Excalibur that he used for fighting. I suggest we keep an eye on the lake at Hogwarts to see if it coughs up something similar. Oh, yes, why did Griffindor need a sword anyway? His wand might have been more appropriate. And why are there suits of armor in the castle (unless I'm contaminated)? Hard to imagine that a suit of armor would do much good against most spells, though perhaps against some. 2. We know that wizard knights and nobles have existed in the past. Specifically, Nick is Sir Nicholas, and I'm assuming that the Bloody Baron was a real baron. 3. Voldemort uses the appellation of "Lord". Yes, it's convenient in terms of the anagram of his true name, but LV seems to have a bit more knowledge of his own background than I would expect for someone who grew up in a Muggle orphanage. Riddle states plainly enough that the blood of Slytherin runs in his veins through his mother's side. So given that Riddle seems to have traced his ancestry back far enough, perhaps he knows that he is a (bastard?) descendant of some long ago wizard king or king-like person. Offhand, I don't recall anyone else in canon being referred to with any sort of royal/noble term, except Nick (only a knight) and the Baron. I also can't help but note that Voldemort is a bastard in at least one other sense. 4. When Binns discusses the historical background to the legend of the CoS, he notes that wizards and witches at the time of the Hogwarts founding were often persecuted and "feared by the common people". He does not say "feared by the Muggles", which leads me to think that the ancient royals and nobles were quite familiar with and comfortable wit the wizarding world. It is, of course, unclear whether Nick was a victim of the persecution refers to, and Nick's back story might eventually be useful to know. 5. Though Dumbledore theorizes that Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue comes from the first encounter with Voldemort, he does hedge a bit by saying something like "unless I am very much mistaken". Canon does make it plain that Riddle/LV and Harry are both Parseltongues -- we actually see them speak to snakes -- and Slytherin is reported to have been one too. But we do not really yet know why Harry is a Parseltongue, and we cannot rule out a genetic component to Parselmouthiness. I think that's it for significant items. More to come as I get through the other books. Ersatz Harry, who has some doubts about this notion but nonethelss thinks it worth some exploration From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Fri May 16 15:59:10 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD In-Reply-To: <1053030230.175714.36589.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030516155910.42426.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57979 Grey Wolf said: > > > Dumbledore, according to MD, knows that the chamber exists, not > > > where to find it, and knows that monster is a basilisk, but not > > > how it moves around the castle. This isn't Dumbledore's plan. He > > > couldn't stop it 50 years ago, and he cannot stop it now, > > > because he is looking for a needle in a haystack. He knows > > > Voldemort has to be involved, but doesn't know how. Morgan D.: Let me see if I got this right. Dumbledore knew the monster in the chamber was a basilisk since Moaning Myrtle's death. He knew a Parselmouth could control it. In the night of Hallowe'en, he knew the chamber had been opened and that the basilisk was "loose" in the castle (in fact, being controlled by someone who let the beast hunt inside the school). Now, about a month ago while working on the Hogwarts Letters project, I made some calculations to figure when the Duelling Club scene took place, and I ended up with the idea that it was sometime around the third week of December. (Sorry if this is hardly accurate, JKR's dates are hard to figure.) So only a few weeks after learning the basilisk was around, Dumbledore learned he had the means to locate it. Because, if he knows it's a basilisk and if he knows Harry is a Parselmouth, he knows Harry has been hearing voices. And he doesn't have to risk Harry's life, or force him to do anything he doesn't want to. All he has to do is ask, "Harry, please tell me where the voices come from, help me open the door." When Dumbledore asks Harry if he has something to tell him, Harry says no. But Dumbledore already knows what Harry doesn't want to tell. So the scene works to inform Dumbledore that Harry wants to solve the problem on his own. However, Harry won't solve the problem for many months yet. And meanwhile, students will meet the basilisk and only the most incredible, unrealistic kind of luck that only happens in fairy tales spare the victims from dying. Gomes asked: > > And if he knew there was a basilisk inside, why didn't he take > > other measures to defeat it, like bringing more roosters to the > > castle? And Pip!Squeak countered: > Wrong question. What you should be asking is: 'why are there > roosters at Hogwarts *at all*'? > Figure it out. JKR estimates that there are 1000 pupils, there are > certainly a minimum 400 or so pupils. How many eggs is that per day? Morgan: I don't believe in "wrong questions". I think Pip!Squeak's question is interesting as another possible sign that JKR didn't make any serious calculation about the number of pupils, etc. On the other hand, like Pip!Squeak also suggested: > I know JK Rowling OBE is bad at maths, but she has referred to > Hagrid's vegetable patch as 'small' more than once. I think she's > quite aware that Hogwarts doesn't grow its own food, and is trying > to imply that Hagrid grows vegetables (and keeps chickens) as a > hobby. Morgan: I must say that was my idea too: the roosters and the vegetable patch are Hagrid's. But that doesn't answer Gomes' question, which happens to be a question of mine too. No matter to whom the roosters belonged, they were there. They could be used. Ginny killed them for that very reason. So why not fill the whole castle with roosters? Grey Wolf pointed out: > But there were roosters in the castle. There have been for 50 years > and more, I'm sure. And they weren't enough. Morgan: Probably because nobody tried to use them against the basilisk, since they couldn't locate it. Ginny kills them, I think, precisely to keep anyone from trying that. But now Dumbledore can locate the basilisk if he wants to (ask Harry!) and the staff can therefore try to place the roosters where they'll be effective. Grey Wolf suggested: > Let's say Dumbledore noticed the connection to the > bathroom. > Now what? Let's go even further and say he discovers the snake etched > in the handbasin. Still this takes him nowhere. Without Parseltongue, > he cannot go further than that. Morgan: But he has Parseltongue on his side since December at least (presuming Dumbledore didn't know about the zoo incident in PS, or hadn't guessed on his own that Harry "inherited" Parseltongue from his first encounter with Voldemort). Unless he thought Harry could be the one who opened the chamber, and apparently he didn't. Grey Wolf said: > Dumbledore does take measures to protect the students, but students > are, by nature, unruly and that makes them difficult to protect. And > certain measures aren't particularly useful. Killing roosters is > easy, > and filling the entire Hogwarts with roosters is not. And this is Tom > Riddle we are talking about - roosters are a minor inconvineance. The > teachers were on alert, and measures were taken. But there is no such > thing as a foolproof defence against a creature that kills by sight, > moves undetected and is mortally venomous. When you get right down to > it, there is no such thing as a perfect defence for *anything* - > there is always a way to circunvent it. Morgan: What measures he takes to protect the students? Cancelling the night activities, the students being escorted all the time by teachers, those measures were only taken when Hermione and Penny were petrified, after Easter. What measures were taken to protect the students between Hallowe'en and Easter? I don't think we can say for sure if the roosters would have been useful or not, since no one really tried that. The fact that Riddle did make a point of getting rid of that leads me to believe he thought of them as more than a "minor inconvenience". There is no foolproof defence? Of course not. But isn't *some* defence better than no defence at all? Grey Wolf's opinion is: > I don't think Dumbledore > could've done more than he did, short of closing the school and > sending > everyone home. But leaving those children uneducated when Voldemort > is stirring is even more dangerous than the basilisk could ever be. Morgan: Better dead than uneducated? No, I can't agree with that. Especially because at the time of CoS Voldemort is doing nothing but "stirring", as you say. He doesn't have a body. As for his diary-persona, he's INSIDE Hogwarts. The kids would have been a lot safer at home. Honestly, I think Dumbledore did close to nothing to protect the students. I can either believe that he thought of the potential victims as pawns to be sacrificed in the larger game (training Harry to defeat Voldemort), or that JKR's plot for that particular book has so many holes it can hardly stand. Just my humble opinion, Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 16 16:07:13 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:07:13 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > Serena: > > ... the back cover of the special edition. > > For those who haven't seen it, it shows what looks like the wing of > an owl flying by an old, boarded up house. > > And I have two thoughts on what that house might be: > > The Shrieking Shack or the Riddle house. > > Me(Bill): > > Well, the building had four floors, so I doubt that it is the > Shrieking Shack. The term 'shack' implies something smaller. I do > agree that the image fits the description of the Riddle house quite > nicely. > > One thing that I noticed is that if you look at the spine of the > book, right at the top, on the fourth floor, (or attic) you see a > brightly lit window with the shadow of a man looking out. You-Know- > Who? > > Bill bboy_mn: The House- I agree that this house is too large for the Shrieking Shack. While the Shrieking Shack is a two story building which would be relatively large for a house in a small old village like Hogsmeade, I don't see it as mansion size. Plus, I always envisioned the Shack as being made out of wood even though all wood houses would probably be very unusual in an old Scotish village like this. Before I looked at the photo, my first thought went to Harry's Godric's Hollow home/house. Wonder what happened to that house? Was it completely destroyed? The book used some strong language when referring to the house; ruins, rubble, destroyed, etc.... Despite this strong language, I really don't have a good clear feel for the current condition of the Godric's Hollow house. Given what we know and assuming it is a place we already know about, the only thing that seems to fit, is the Riddle House. There seems to be a lot of specutation about who owns the Riddle House, but the strongest feelings lean toward either Lucius Malfoy or Dumbledore. I have often wondered if Harry will receive the Riddle house after the defeat of Voldemort, either as 'spoils of war' or as a reward or as a gift from the owner, whoever that mysterious owner might be. The Owl- Notice that the owl... well, the bird, we just assume it is an owl, is not Hedwig. In the instances that we have seen an owl used on Voldemorts behalf, I believe it was alway been an eagle owl. Odd that both Malfoy and Voldemort use eagle owls. The Man in the Window- I have to admit that it really does look like the shadow or silhouette of a man, it could just as easliy be the 'part' or seam in the window curtains. Just some thoughts. bboy_mn From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri May 16 16:10:06 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:10:06 -0000 Subject: Voldemort (Was: avada kedavra) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57981 Greicy wrote: > I believe Voldemort is completely stupid. He's planning this "I'm > Going To Kill Harry Once and For All" plan and not thinking fulling > about the consequences and side effects. I have to object to this. Stealing a page right out of Darrin's book, I don't like Stupid!EvilOverlord!Voldemort anymore he likes Omniscient!Dumbledore. And I have canon to prove that he isn't that nearsighted *at all*. Most of my arguments, of course, many of you have seen before. After all, Spymaster!Voldemort in Magic Dishwasher can hardly be stupid if the theory is to float, so you can find most of the arguments about Voldemort's rationality in post 40044, complete with quotations from the EvilOverlord manual. But let me tackle your comment, Grace. I'm afraid that the "I'm Going To Kill Harry Once and For All" plan is far from canonical. The opening chapter of GoF is a long ramble were we get glimpses of Voldemort's plan, and not *once* those he suggest trying to kill Harry - and it is not due to political correctness. "Kill" gets used a lot, in connection with Bertha Jorkins, for example, but Harry is only mentioned as a means, as something Voldemort needs to achieve his purposes. And by the end of the book, we know exactly what: Voldemort needs his blood, and nothing else, as part of a potion. He could've used anyone else, but uses Harry for his own reasons. No, Voldemort isn't trying to kill Harry. He tried once, and that went *very* wrong. When the game is up and what he wants is in reach, he tries to kill him, but it has never been part of the plan. In PS, Harry is at his mercy the whole year, but Voldemort is going for the stone, not revenge. Of course, when Harry has the stone, he's fair game and Voldemort makes an attempt. Which, incidently, works no better than the first time. If we asume that the idea of the diary in CoS came from Voldemort (and not independently by Malfoy; a not altogether far shot, and in fact one that is deemed probable by MD), then once again the objective isn't Harry (who isn't a mudblood), but closing the school, which is a very good idea, since Voldemort doesn't need a new generation of aurors. And of course, Voldemort could've used the body possesed by the diary as a new home, or reach some other arrangement with himself. Finally, in GoF, Voldemort is focusing once again in what is, ultimately, his main objective: immortality. In the GG (Graveyard Gathering) he explicitly mentions that this is a step back in his search for immortality, and that Harry is chosen because he expects Harry's protection to be copied onto the new body. Although we cannot disregard the possibility of this being missinformation aimed at Dumbledore (see 40044), it is clear from chapter one that Voldemort has, indeed, good reasons for using Harry and no other, but this reasons don't include "and since he's handy already, I'll kill him afterwards because that is all I can think of". Only when the main objective has been achieved (getting a new body), and he has given Harry a bucketfull of information that wasn't necessary for him to know (thus getting once again the faint odour of subterfuge that leads into the missinformation theory of MD) does he attempt to destroy the brat. But carefully, trying out Harry's defenses. Logically too, since Harry has demonstrated in three previous occasions that he is perfectly capable of surviving an encounter with Voldemort. Not to mention the dragons, giant spiders, 1000 massed dementors, etc, etc ad endless nauseam. Yes, killing Harry would've been a nice end of party motive for the GG, but it was hardly the main point, as we can see from ch. 1. Voldemort doesn't plan to kill Harry, he plans to get a body. If the occasion to kill Harry presents itself, he tries to take it, but -and I want to make this clear, since it is my point- it is *not* Voldemorts main and only plan. > Voldemort has become > maniacal in his quest, he's not focusing at all. Isn't this the > case for all Evil characters? They focus so much on one thing that > they forget about everything else. It is indeed a stereotype that evil guys are egomaniacs that cannot see past the end of their noses. I, however, don't see Voldemort as one of them - thankfully. There is nothing more trite and boring than a stupid bad guy. Not even an omniscient mentor :D . Voldemort is focused, absolutely. His plans have found at least two ways of penetrating Hogwarts, maybe three, and Hogwarts is suposed to be the safest place in the WW. The second safest, Gringotts, was penetrated so easily it merely got a passing reference. Voldemort has very clear priorities. Since he thinks he cannot take on Dumbledore, he is looking for inmortality. Notice that while it is assumed he wants to take over the WW, he hasn't made any steps in that direction since he came back. Instead, he bids his time, draws his allies close and continues to search for the ultimate weapon - inmortality (ultimate weapon for someone with his powers, that is. Giving, say, a simple rat immortality isn't going to alter the face of the world). > Do you guys think that maybe the DE's will turn against Voldemort > because all he cares about is killing Harry? Wasn't his main > concern at some point taking over the WW, killing Mudbloods; > Mudblood sympathizers; and anti-Voldemortists? > > Greicy Again, I insist: his main concern is *not* killing Harry. The plans he reveals in the GG are not oriented towards that, they are oriented toward grasping power: liberating their companions, getting hold of allies, weakening the WW. And there *is* a grain (and more, I'm sure) of truth in them - Dumbledore isn't going to swallow it otherwise. I imagine that pretty soon the Dark Mark will reappear to start once again breaking down the social structure of the WW, and otherwise allowing his DEs to have fun and get their hands on profit. My own private theory is that he'll attempt to get Fudge expelled from the MoM and get Lucius in his place. And of course, he will continue to experiment with his body to finally achieve immortality. What about Harry? Well, Harry is indeed getting dangerous. He's made of the same sort of moral fibre Dumbledore is made of, and he is gaining abilities very quickly. Until now, he's been an inconvinience, something that gets in the way and foils plans. Soon it will become a menace, so Voldemort should start planning his death. But Voldemort managed to put the WW on its collective knees 15 years ago, even with Dumbledore around. He might do it again, even with Harry in the picture. So in the future, there might be plans to finish Harry off, but so far there haven't been, not in canon. At any rate, Voldemort isn't one of the stereotypical bad guys. He knows what he wants, and has good, solid plans and experience to make it happen. He's not obsessed with killing Harry. He might be a little too obsessed with becoming immortal, or becoming overlord of the universe, but that is a character flaw. So far, he hasn't made any stupid mistakes - in the sense of "hey, no (immoral) intelligent person would do that". He has made mistakes - like AK'ing Harry when he was a baby, but no-one could guess that would be the result. Entering Gringotts was logical, as was attempting to steal the stone from Hogwarts. Dangerous, of course, but logical, if he could pull it off. And so on. All his moves have been carefully considered and, although driven by an immoral mind, there is a mind and not some sort of moronic dribble behind those actions. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Fri May 16 16:23:37 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:23:37 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57982 bboy_mn: The Owl- Notice that the owl... well, the bird, we just assume it is an owl, is not Hedwig. In the instances that we have seen an owl used on Voldemorts behalf, I believe it was alway been an eagle owl. Odd that both Malfoy and Voldemort use eagle owls. Me (Bill): The feathers on the wing seem to be red. Considering that the title of the book is 'HP and the Order of the Phoenix', I suspect that the bird is Fawkes. Bill From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 16 15:42:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:42:59 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57983 What are the odds that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is not the true Heir of Slytherin but the self-proclaimed Heir of Slytherin. How much could Tom Riddle possibly know about his mother? I have wondered for along time if Tom didn't discover that he was parslemouth, and in a stretch of his obviously delusional thinking, conclude that he must be the heir of Slytherin. It would seem like just the thing that an insecure, low self-esteem, borderline psychotic with delusions of grandeur would create in his own mind to support his delusions and justify his actions. I'm not really convinced that he IS the heir of Slytherin. I think this is another fantasy he created to avoid the mundane reality of his true existance. It so much easier to be a 'god' when you have convinced yourself that you are the son of a 'god'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri May 16 15:24:25 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:24:25 -0000 Subject: Fanfic as a more displined form of speculation (was: Adopted!Harry) In-Reply-To: <003f01c31a72$63734b00$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "m.steinberger" wrote: > Sorry that Time Turning Turns some people off. The rest of my theory involves more TT, but this part follows the standard "can't change the past" approach. > > In brief: Harry is 18, V is gone, and he's about to consider a peaceful life in the future when D tells him that back when he was 1 yr old, his 18-yr-old self had appeared at Godric's Hollow (5th person) and had blocked the AK, wraithing V and dying in the process. Now (year 7), Harry has a choice: he can go back 17 years to maintain the time-line, save his infant self, and allow his infant self to grow up to defeat V at age 18 - but now Harry will have to die - or he can stay put at age 18, which would change the time-line because 18-yr-old Harry wouldn't be there to save infant Harry. Would infant Harry die? Would V become a wraith? Would V take over the world instead? Would anyone ever defeat V in the end? No one would be able to say for sure how the time-line would reshuffle itself if Harry didn't volunteer to go back and save himself. Maybe Harry will just evaporate and the world will now be in the 17th year of V's dominion. Maybe some other scenario altogether. > > What does Harry choose? Essentially, he has to decide whether the 18 years he's had so far have been meaningful enough to justify dying at 18 to ensure that those 18 years will have happened. I propose that JKR will present the dilemma so that the reader has to answer that question, too. Were the seven books we will have read so wonderful that we wish Harry to allow himself to die in order to ensure that he lived as an infant and gave us the satisfaction we had in reading about him? Or will we say that, fun as following Harry was for us, he should allow the time-line to be altered for the chance of living longer, even though the likelihood is that Harry will never have been? Me: I don't think most people have a problem with Time-Turning in general; although some people have voiced a dissatisfaction with JKR's having used this to solve the saving-Sirius-and-Buckbeak problem in PoA, I know of many, many people who cite PoA as their favorite book in the canon thus far. I reckon that your view may hinge on how much you consider this to be 'cheating,' or perhaps how much exposure you've had to time-travel stories in science fiction and fantasy (too much, I suspect, might make you more jaded about it rather than more accepting). Many folks are also divided about fanfiction. Some people think it 'contaminates' one's perception of the canon, while others find it to be a more disciplined form of speculation about the canon, even more so than posting on a list like this, as it forces the fanfiction author to really think about the implications of the theories that he/she is proposing and to work out as many of the details as possible (assuming that's what the person is doing with the fanfiction--some is more wishful thinking or 'what-if,' rather than speculation about what has happened or will happen). Unfortunately, if the theory at the top of this post were put into the form of speculative fanfiction, it would be full of plot holes and inconsistencies, both internal inconsistences and canon inconsistencies. First, it contradicts canon to suggest that the curse only rebounded onto Voldemort because someone else blocked it. It doesn't matter who blocked it, Harry or someone else--this idea negates Lily's sacrifice and also is contrary to what we know about the Killing Curse. (It also turns Dumbledore into a liar.) According to the canon books it CANNOT be blocked. From what JKR has told us, it is far more likely that the reason that Voldemort turned into a 'wraith,' to use your terminology, is that he had more power than anyone else around, so that was what was necessary to nearly destroy him. (It is strongly implied that others tried and failed.) All of that power turned against the source of all that power--him--produced a result no one had ever seen before, and the curse only rebounded upon him because of Lily's sacrifice. It's always been emphasized how singular the event was. The theory that a time-traveling Harry--or, as I said, ANYONE--'blocked' the curse makes it seem that people went around blocking the Killing Curse all the time. Not according to JKR they didn't. Another plot hole: I also don't understand the 'but now Harry will have to die' part. How does Dumbledore know this? Is it a prediction of Trelawney's? (And HOW many times has she predicted his death?) This is just conveniently thrown in as a given without any explanation. Blam. Harry will die at 18. The problem is, we only know of one way to travel back through time at this point: The Time-Turner. I wish folks would stop suggesting that it's possible to travel back through years and years with a device that only lets you go back one hour for every turn! Haven't we had enough people posting about how long you'd have to turn the thing to go back a significant amount of time? And there's another Time-Turner caveat which has been mentioned repeatedly: you can't travel FORWARD with the Time-Turner. After using a Time-Turner to travel back in time to save himeself, Harry would have to live the years 1981-1998 as an 18-35 year old. It's the only way we know of for Harry to get back to his departure point. So he wouldn't be an eighteen-year-old after saving himself-- the only Harry who would be left in the world after the 18 year old Harry traveled back through time would be the 35 year old Harry who's been living through the same 17 years as an adult. If, at that point, he defeats Voldemort, he will have lived for about 35 years, not 18, so even if he does die in the process, he will have lived well past his adolescence and might even be married and have kids. (Don't forget the details!) Another thing the fanfiction author would have to consider: During those seventeen years, Harry would very likely have spent a tremendous amount of time restraining himself from sending himself Christmas and Birthday presents, hexing the Dursleys when they're not looking, or warning himself about things like what would happen by his insisting that Cedric take the tournament cup with him. This guy would have to spend seventeen years sitting on his hands, knowing every bad thing that's going to happen to himself during that time, and probably feeling constantly tempted to change that. (And knowing about others' tragedies, too. He'd have to let Sirius just sit in Azkaban all those years. At least he didn't know before!) Plus, he'd have to live in the Muggle world, because in the wizarding world people would probably assume that he's the resurrected James Potter, but with a scar (and he'd have to explain the eye color), which would mean that they'd expect him to take care of his son (not to mention explain being alive), which would in turn change what he knows of his early life. See? When you write speculative fanfiction, you need to consider the radiating ramifications of every proposed change, and sometimes the changes can snowball in the most surprising way. I know; I wrote a long and complicated Harry-travels-back-in-time-to-save-his- mum fanfiction. In addition to Voldemort not having fallen, the new world that resulted included such changes as none of the characters that, in canon, were born after October of 1981 being born, the USSR still existing, no Muggle-borns being allowed to attend Hogwarts and even the driving age in the UK being slightly lower. You have to consider a huge number of details. (For folks who like reading alternate history fantasy, I highly recommend Harry Turtledove's works. Turtledove is very, very good with the details of what would happen had the South won the US Civil War, for instance.) For any time travel theory of this sort, you have to think of a way for a person to travel back in time (other than a Time-Turner) if it's more than a few hours, although that would be truly speculative, as JKR has not written about any such thing as yet. You would also have to do better than saying, "Harry will die at 18" with no explanation of how anyone has come by this knowledge. These would actually not be difficult things to work out in a fanfiction, but in this theory they haven't been worked out at all. (Creating a time-travel spell for a fanfiction would not contradict canon; to imply that a Time-Turner works differently than the way JKR has described would.) The real problem I have with the theory is that proposing that someone merely blocking the Killing Curse aimed at Harry led to Voldemort's fall also contradicts canon, and one of the most important messages of the series (Lily's love being stronger than Voldemort's power). In the end, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri May 16 16:52:35 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:52:35 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57985 Serena wrote: > > ... the back cover of the special edition. > > > > For those who haven't seen it, it shows what looks like the wing of > > an owl flying by an old, boarded up house. > > > > And I have two thoughts on what that house might be: > > > > The Shrieking Shack or the Riddle house. > > > > > Bill replied: > > > > Well, the building had four floors, so I doubt that it is the > > Shrieking Shack. The term 'shack' implies something smaller. I do > > agree that the image fits the description of the Riddle house quite > > nicely. Then bboy_mn added: > The House- > I agree that this house is too large for the Shrieking Shack. > snip, snip, snip < > I really don't have a good clear feel for the current > condition of the Godric's Hollow house. > > Given what we know and assuming it is a place we already know about, > the only thing that seems to fit, is the Riddle House. Now me(Linda): What we're seeing here is a four story stone structure that doesn't really fit any building desription that we have seen in cannon. I think it's extremely possible that the structure is not even in Britain. Could Harry possibly do a little travelling in OoP? Maybe we are seeing Durmstrang or Beauxbatons. It would be in keeping with previous books that the cover that we are relying upon to give us clues is showing us a part of the WW that we have no or very little knowledge of. As I recall we are supposed to be going to a new location in the WW in OoP. IMHO that is what we're seeing on this cover. -Linda From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 16 16:59:55 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:59:55 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57986 Steve: > How much could Tom Riddle possibly know about his mother? I have > wondered for along time if Tom didn't discover that he was > parslemouth, and in a stretch of his obviously delusional thinking, > conclude that he must be the heir of Slytherin. > > It would seem like just the thing that an insecure, low self-esteem, > borderline psychotic with delusions of grandeur would create in his > own mind to support his delusions and justify his actions. > > I'm not really convinced that he IS the heir of Slytherin. I think > this is another fantasy he created to avoid the mundane reality of his > true existance. > > It so much easier to be a 'god' when you have convinced yourself that > you are the son of a 'god'. > > Just a thought. First, let me say that I love this theory. I posted that it would be a hoot if the good Slyth I've wanted is actually Salazar himself, cutting V-Mort loose when the chips are really down. A couple of things to question it though. We know from Dumbledore that Riddle is the ancestor/descendant of Slytherin. So, he is related, unless D-Dore is wrong or lying. But does that make him the "heir" in the sense of the "chosen one" sense of the word? Not necessarily. Salazar probably had lots of descendants. Riddle WAS able to open the Chamber of Secrets. Now, whether Salazar set it up to where any old Parselmouth could do it or not could be up for debate. But overall, I like this idea. Darrin From innermurk at catlover.com Fri May 16 16:58:55 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:58:55 -0000 Subject: Stone Defenses In-Reply-To: <001a01c319ed$f5d311e0$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "m.steinberger" wrote: > The odd thing about the Ph. Stone's defenses is not that they were too easy, but that solutions were deliberately provided. I'm referring to the brooms in the key room. Why leave brooms there? And the riddle in the potions room. Why leave any clues at all? Any normal person setting up the potions defense would have left the clue to the potions locked in a safe elsewhere in the castle. And if you imagine that Quirrel nabbed the potions riddle and then left it with the potions, that doesn't explain why there were three (or more) brooms in the key room. Had Quirrel brought a broom in and left it, there would be only one. > (I innermurk answer) If you'll remember that Hermione (later in the challenge during the potions and logic one) says that a lot of wizards don't possess cool logic. I've always taken the brooms as a sort of red herring, or long way around this challenge. Harry and the trio don't yet know the summoning charm, but you can bet most grown wizards do. Wouldn't it have been so much easier to summon each key to you than to chase it around on a broom? Yet, if the brooms are there when you walk in, you'ld probably just hop on and go to it without thinking. A lot of time and effort could be wasted here while you chase the keys around. Maybe you'ld be so frustrated by not getting the correct key you'ld think about giving it up? It's actually a pretty smart thing to provide the brooms. I have to agree with bboy_mn who said: First, I'm one of those people who find it extremely annoying that anyone taking an objective look would call the challenges leading to the Stone easy. 7.) The Mirror - well, many many people have already said that the Mirror alone was the most effective challenge in the group and could have probably effectively guarded the Stone all by itself. Certainly, a brilliant challenge. But I have to wonder if the Mirror didn't also have some hazards added to it. For example (no cannon support), if you tried to strike the mirror to break it, you might have been sucked inside and trapped there. It would be the first 'fairytale' mirror to suck people inside and trap them. The Mirror could have been an even greater challenge that we know. Even without the additional implied hazards, it was still pretty brilliant. (I innermurk add): I LIKE the idea of being sucked into the mirror! I wonder if the mirror did have a spell to protect it from being broken. I had pondered in the past that if one broke the mirror as Quirrell suggested, the stone might come tumbling out, but I like the idea that the mirror wouldn't allow itself to be broken in the first place, and would suck you in before you could do it. I have to add my feeling that any wizard who tried to break through would not have the strengths in all the areas that HHR had put together. Who do you know that is brilliant at animals, herbology, heights, sports, chess, monsters (we'll say fear for practicality in the real world application), logic, riddles, and to top that all off is just brave enough, quick enough, and smart enough to pull it all off? There's no one person alive that would be able to do all that without prior knowledge of what they'll be facing, and/or the knowledge of a bypass or "back door" as bboy_mn theorized about. I don't now, nor have I ever seen how anyone could call the challenges easy. Besides the challenges themselves, the teachers brilliantly included a lot of misdirection into the challenges (ie the brooms in the key room) They set up a formidable defense. HHR happened to have the skills between them to do what needed to be done. They also happened to have a LOT of luck getting them through. HHR worked hard to get through them, and the bravery to try alone earned them all those points IMO. Innermurk From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri May 16 17:00:36 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:00:36 -0000 Subject: Royal!Harry with an acronym In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57988 "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > As I've mentioned previously, I've been meaning to start canon > combing to see if I could find support for this notion of Harry > being some kind of hidden king within the wizarding world, > analogous to Aragorn in LOTR. I'm being a bit loose when I > say "king"; maybe "chief wizard" would be closer to it, perhaps > the rightful heir of Merlin himself. Although I rather like equating Harry with a king in some ways, I don't personally like being fixated on his lineage for this purpose. He might very well be the Heir of Gryffindor, if we are to look at clues like the Potters living in Godric's Hollow and Harry pulling the sword of Gryffindor out of the Sorting Hat. But Gryffindor wasn't a king, technically. I prefer the idea of Harry being something like a common-born king, like the peasant boys in old myths and fairy-tales who had absolutely no aristicratic blood but through their bravery saved everyone and ended up being awarded with the throne because they earned it, not because of birth. > 1. Harry pulls the sword from the Sorting Hat. Very Arthurian. Of > course, Harry needs it to kill the basilisk rather than to give it > to his foster brother Sir Kay (that's what happened with the Sword > in the Stone), but it's not a big metaphorical jump to go from "a > true Gryffindor" to "the rightful king of England" or whatever the > operative phrase was in the Arthur story. It's possible that JKR did in fact want people to see this as a parallel. Or one could look upon it as Gryffindor, from the grave, 'knighting' Harry with his sword, commissioning him to fight to defend the school against the basilisk. It fits in again with the archetype of the commoner who becomes a knight and saves the kingdom, and is more consistent with JKR's overall message. > Incidentally, King Arthur's parents also died when he was very > young, though he was, as far as I recall, not raised by a near > relative. Well, the hero being raised by foster-parents has been pointed out as a common theme by Joseph Campbell, Lord Raglan and others who have come up with hero-cycles. It's generally regarded as being another womb-metaphor; after being born, the hero is withdrawn into another kind of womb, from which he must be reborn when he comes of age and begins his hero's quest. (Heroes often go through many metaphorical deaths and rebirths.) Harry, in fact, goes through a symbolic death and rebirth every time he goes back to the Dursleys and then returns to Hogwarts, in addition to things like going into the bowels of the castle to retrieve the Stone and entering the Chamber of Secrets. I expect to see more of these symbolic death/rebirth things before the end of the series. > Oh, yes, why did Griffindor need a sword anyway? His wand might > have been more appropriate. And why are there suits of armor in > the castle (unless I'm contaminated)? Hard to imagine that a suit > of armor would do much good against most spells, though perhaps > against some. The purpose of a sword is indeed unclear, unless Gryffindor created it himself and imbued it with a magic that would allow, say, a twelve-year-old boy to somehow kill a basilisk when he had always been rather small and weak. Suits of armor are easy, OTOH. We know that dragons' scales deflect spells. Armor could be charmed to do the same thing, which would be very handy in battle. > 2. We know that wizard knights and nobles have existed in the > past. Specifically, Nick is Sir Nicholas, and I'm assuming that > the Bloody Baron was a real baron. There's no reason that some Muggle-born witches and wizards shouldn't apear in noble families. As for the Baron, who was probably not Muggle-born (being the ghost of Slytherin House, after all) it is also easy to imagine a wizard being able to manipulate a Muggle monarch who would have to power to declare him a Baron or to give some other noble title. > 4. When Binns discusses the historical background to the legend of > the CoS, he notes that wizards and witches at the time of the > Hogwarts founding were often persecuted and "feared by the common > people". He does not say "feared by the Muggles", which leads me > to think that the ancient royals and nobles were quite familiar > with and comfortable with the wizarding world. I think you might be reading too much into the term 'common' here. I suspect that that is just another way Binns uses to refer to Muggles. Muggles are, after all, the most common sort of people around, far more numerous than magical people. I think that is the way he is using it in that passage. > 5. Though Dumbledore theorizes that Harry's ability to speak > Parseltongue comes from the first encounter with Voldemort, he does > hedge a bit by saying something like "unless I am very much > mistaken". As far as Dumbledore knows, it is genetic, and he doesn't tell Harry that either of his parents was a Parselmouth (although it doesn't seem that he knew about James being an Animagus, unless he's just really good at pretending he didn't know). As a result, Dumbledore seems to think it most likely came from Harry's having been attacked by a Parselmouth (although he hedges by saying 'unless I am very much mistaken'). One must consider, however, that it is possible for Muggle-born witches and wizards to suddenly crop up in an old family, and when this does happen, it would seem that NONE of their magical abilities are inherited from their parents, so why should it be any less likely that one of these witches or wizards would have the ability to speak and understand Parseltongue? You never know; Lily could be where Harry gets this. (And remember--she has the green eyes, like Harry.) It could also be that being a Parselmouth isn't as rare as some people make it out to be; perhaps because of the stigma, it's usually been hidden. Just as there may be even more Animagi than the Ministry registry suggests, there may also be many more Parselmouths than is generally known. If you were likely to be suspected of being a dark wizard just because of having this ability, wouldn't you hide it too? --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 17:33:46 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:33:46 -0000 Subject: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57989 I was just at www.cosforums.com and they have a thread up about this. I totally forgot that Roger Davies and Marcus Flint have already graduated. So not only does Gryffindor have a selection to make, but all of the other Houses as well. It's a shame we only know of a few people in each team, now we won't be able to predict who will be their captain. Greicy From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Fri May 16 17:39:05 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:39:05 -0000 Subject: Multi-generational love triangles (WAS: Evil-Molly Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57990 "catherinemckiernan" wrote: > How about Lucius Malfoy? They're both > pure-blood and could even have been at Hogwarts together. Maybe > Lucius' hatred of Arthur is related to Arthur's winning the seductive > Molly? bowlwoman: I like this. I like it a lot. This (to me) is on par with the James/Snape/Lily rivalry that so many posters are fond of. There are 2 men who compete over the love of a woman (or could be 2 women with 1 man), and the losing party possibly turns to the dark side. I wonder if we'll be seeing a pattern of love triangles throughout the generations: Lucius/Arthur/Molly Snape/James/Lily Ron/Harry/Hermione Fudge/Dumbledore/Rosmerta (or McGonagall) (Ok, I know this one's stretching it, but I needed someone old school.) bowlwoman - who is happy to be off moderated status! From Audra1976 at aol.com Fri May 16 17:43:34 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:43:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snapology Message-ID: <1DF225D5.523AE39B.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57991 michele_hahn at ept.lu writes: <> If you ever start to feeling too sorry for him, remember the time he punished Neville by making him disembowel a barrel of toads by hand! I'm just re-reading GoF in preparation for OoP and I hadn't retained that little detail the first time around. Imagine Neville having to rip the guts out of all those toads that looked just like his Trevor. Hasn't the boy been though enough? I'm a huge Snape fan, but that little stunt makes me want to give him a good sharp poke. -Audra- From sdpinoy2003 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 13:36:01 2003 From: sdpinoy2003 at yahoo.com (Ephrem B) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516133601.21178.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57992 This is just my opinion as to why Voldemort didn't try to kill Lily first. In the books in all the recollections of the night Voldemort killed James and Lily, I didn't read anything about Lily having her wand. So far that I've read most charms and curses performed by anyone required a wand. I have read that wands are required to perform the more complicated spells. Without her wand, Lily wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight. There's two reasons I can think of why she didn't have a wand. One, she did try to fight with her wand, but got taken away from her (expelliarmus spell?) and then she protected Harry after she lost her wand and we just didn't hear that part of the battle during the flashbacks in PoA when the Dementors came close to Harry. Or two, just didn't have time to get to her wand as she tried to get to Harry first and try to run. These are some reasons why she couldn't defeat Voldemort. But I'm sure there are others. "Ephrem B" From jodel at aol.com Fri May 16 17:48:55 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:48:55 EDT Subject: Adopted!/Substituted!/Changling!Harry-Part II Message-ID: <1de.910fd45.2bf67e87@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57993 I have modified my variant name as the Changeling!Harry variant. It fits the conditions much more accurately and appropriately. It also offers some additional possible context and subtext for the first two books. The "Changling" interpretation turns out to offer an explanation for why Harry was left with the Dursleys despite their being perfectly horrible people. And I am quite convinced that Albus Dumbledore *knew* that they were perfectly horrible people. But they were his best shot. The explanation that he gave Minerva McGonagall was only part of the reasoning. The shallowest and most surface part. The disapearance of Lord Voldemort and Harry's unaccountable survival were bound to have been a major subject for discussion and investigation throughout the missing 24 hours. Dumbeldore knew, and had been a contributor to the protective spell structure which had allowed the child to survive. But this particular spell structure was experimental. It had never been done before. The actual results were theoretical and untested. They did not know what had actually taken place and they did not know whether, or how deeply the child had been affected, or in what manner. The child could be a ticking time bomb. The results of this investigation are known only to Dumbledore and a handful of people with high security clearance, probably Unspeakables in the Department of Mysteries (we will hope that Agustus Rookwood was not privy to that investigation). Given these uncertainties, for all that he appeared to be a normal human child, he was both in danger from and a danger to the wizarding world. It was necessary that Harry Potter be kept well away from the magical world until he came to Hogwarts, where he could be watched, and only a family of Muggles who were already aware of magic could be depended upon not to raise the kind of uproar that would direct the kind of attention to him that might be fatal in the Muggle world. The Dursley's known opposition to magic was, in this case, an advantage. They would not expose him to the wizarding world where they would not be able to protect him, and he would not be subject to undesirable magical influences. The Dursley's unfamiliarity with the norms of raising young wizards would also keep them from recognizing anomlalies as anomalies, chalking all strange occurances down to "magic". And, horrible as they were, Dumbledore had reasonable confidence that they would not physically torture or starve him. Mrs Figg was indeed set to watch over him. But not to protect him from the Dursleys. Nor was she primarily stationed where she was in order to detect the approach of possible ex-Death Eaters. Her part was to give the alarm and try to neutralize Harry if he should show signs of turning out to actually be their enemy and reverting to type. She could not and did not take the risk of permiting herself to become fond of him. (Now that Voldemort has returned in fact, and it is clear that Harry at least is not the enemy, her watch may either be called off or her function changed.) Hagrid was sent to collect the boy because Hagrid was one of the handfull of people who remembers Tom Riddle as a young boy. Hagrid saw no resemblance in Harry to anyone but James and Lily Potter. Dumbledore took a tremendous risk in showing Harry how the Mirror of Erised worked. He was 99% certain that it was Quirrell who had been possessed by the entity that they had known as Voldemort, but he had to test whether Voldemort might have tried to work through Harry as well. The news that Harry had entered the labyrinth was highly unwelcome, but it is clear from Dumbledore's response that he had always considered it a possibility. That when found Harry and Voldemort were locked in a mortal combat seems to have cleared Harry of suspicion of being an intenional tool of their enemy, regardless of whatever else he may be. It was now solidly established that to Voldemort Harry Potter was only a child that he wants dead. Until he turned up in the wrong place at the wrong time when the Chamber was opened the following year and suspicions started flying all over again. Dumbledore knows kids, and while he did not really think that Harry was responsible for the attack on Mrs. Norris, the boy was clearly keeping some information back. There is also still the fact that he has some connection with the entity which had possessed Quirrell through his scar, and that the second Fawkes wand had chosen him. And they *still* do not know just what took place when Voldemort first tried to kill him. How far do all of these connections go? Dumbledore has had 50 years to mull over what had taken place the year that the Chamber of Secrets had been opened the first time and it is altogether too likely that he already *knows* that somehow a Basilisk is making free of the school. By this time, it is also known that Lord Voldemort is a Parselmouth. I am not sure that this ever *was* actually known of Tom Riddle. I strongly suspect that it was not, or he might have come under suspicion the first time around, and all indications are that he did not. But. Dumbledore *does* know Voldemort's origin, and has long since worked out that if Riddle is Voldemort, and Voldemort is a Parselmouth, and that one of the classic stone-turning monsters (and there are not that many of those) is the Basilisk, which is a form of snake, that the uproar the year that Myrtle was killed and Hagrid was expelled was probably produced by Riddle, who was controlng and directing a Basilisk. But *how*? And now Potter is acting suspiciously, and he *really* does not want to have to believe that Voldemort is acting through Potter. Plus, we suddenly have Lucius Malfoy underfoot, and that is even more suspicious. Dumbledore refuses to believe that Potter is dancing to *Malfoy's* tune. But a Basilisk is a *snake*, and Riddle was a Parselmouth, and Potter has some sort of a connection to Riddle. Could Potter have *heard* the Basilisk as it moved through the school? It's worth establishing that much at least. I believe that in PS/SS Dumbledore enlisted Snape and Filch's help to set up the Mirror of Erised experiment wherein he explained to Harry Potter how the Mirror worked. I think that in CoS he took Snape into his confidence far enough to pass on his suspicion that Potter may have acquired the gift of Parselmouth when LV first tried to kill him and that it might be useful to test this theory. Snape, being Snape, agreed that this might be useful indeed and, as Harry exceeded expectations in PS/SS by going into the labyrinth to save the Stone, Snape exceeded expectations by making sure that this hypothis was verified publically, dramatically, and with maximun negative impact upon Potter. Dumbledore was Not Pleased. But he chalked it down to experience, and got a certain degree of private amusement when he was able to sit back and watch what goes around come around and bite Snape when he engineered Sirius Black's escape the following year. Snape could have readily avoided making a fool of himself by exercising a little open-mindedness and moderation. But open-mindedness and moderation are lessons that Snape is determined not to learn. And, the evidence of Fawkes and Godric's sword is inarcuable, and assures that by the end of CoS, we can safely say that Harry has never, and probably will never come under suspicion from Albus Dumbledore again. He has amply proved himself, and his intentions, at least, have Dumbledore's absolute confidence. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri May 16 17:55:35 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:55:35 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57994 Steve wrote: > What are the odds that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is not the true Heir of > Slytherin but the self-proclaimed Heir of Slytherin. The chances of Tom Riddle being a descendant of Salazar are high. Very high, in fact. So are the chances of all others in the WW, not only of being descendant of Salazar but of all the founders at the same time. Due to expanded lifetimes, lets asume 2 generations per century (as oposed to the four muggles get). This gives over 20 generations since those times. Unless something radical comes into the picture ("Salazar and all his descendants lived in a island somewhere isolated for the last 900 years, the first one to leave being Riddle's mother"), anyone could be descendant after so many generations. If every single ancestor is different, each person has 2^20 ancestors at the time (not counting their parents and sons, which would be alive too). This number is above one million. As far as we know, there aren't that many people in WW nowadays, so even less then. Even asuming, say, 80% muggle ascendency at the time (which is a very large upper limit), we still have 200000 wizards to produce a single modern wizard. I doubt there were that many wizards at the time, or maybe only just. Many of the ancestors, however, are one and the same. different family tress cross again and again. After a while, everyone could probably find a route to a especific ancestor 20 generations away. But of course, that isn't what Steve is suggesting. What he suggests is that he isn't the *heir*. Now, many people take the heir idea literally: i.e. the first male descendant (or first descendant, depending on the time) all the way from Salazar. I asume this would provide some sort of official aspect to all of it. But I don't buy that. For one thing, definition of heir has changed over the years, and there is always tricky when the normal line is cut (heir with no sons), to see who is the next succesor (which of the legion of cousins). And since no-one seems too interested in keeping track of it in the WW (or else, the fact that Tom Riddle was heir to Salazar would be better known), I discount that as a possibility. Then we have the self proclamation. Which makes a lot of sense, particularly for someone who wants to go far, like Tom. It is always a good strategy to throw names around, particularly if their ideas do support or at least can be turned to support your own political campaign. So Steve's idea certainly makes sense. My own idea, however, is that here "heir" is being used in a loose sense, with basis on legend. And a pinch of circular reasoning. The leyend says that the chamber can only be opened by the true heir. Tom opened it, ergo he is the true heir. And since he is the true heir, the legend was speaking the truth, so he really *is* the true heir. He might believe the heir idea I described above or not, but he certainly uses it to further his campaign, and it works. He is an evil person; lying is not unheard of in such people, so even if he cannot trace his line beyond his mother, his followers believe it (and those that doubt are summarly executed as examples). Of course, the legend isn't true: Harry opens the chamber too. I discount Harry being somehow descendant of Voldemort (mainly because it's too StarWars-ish, which JKR told us it is not and because I have the feeling Voldemort cannot reproduce in his snake form anyway), so the only way for Harry to be descendant is by the tricky business of cousin selection I mentioned above, and I find the whole idea unprobable. Lets, for a moment, however, contemplate what we know of Salazar. We know him quite well, better probably than any of the other founders. One line has always attracted me to him: he liked students that had his own rare gift, and as such it is reflected in the sorting hat's choosing method. Dumbledore doesn't tell us if Salazar ever found a parselmouth student, but it seems that he at least searched. So it is entirely possible that what he considered his greatest talent was precisely that ability, and as such wanted to cherish whomever had it - maybe he would allow them into his chamber of study (and since it was closed for anyone who couldn't speak parseltongue, due to the dangers within it in the form of a hatched basilisk, it would've become a chamber of secrets). And from there, the legend grew. I believe, without canon to back me up, that when Salazar left he left the country and founded Durmstrang, with policies that suited him better. He didn't take the basilisk with him for purely logistic problems: taking a 20 metre long snake that must weight over a ton, can kill with a stare, is very poisonous and is extrictly regulated since ancient times (maybe) across Europe isn't going to be an easy job. So he leaves it in the school - he hasn't got the heart to kill his little pet, and it is quite capable to take care of itself anyway. He doesn't have to be evil - at the time, his ideas maked sense, even if they were radical. Maybe leaving the basilisk in the school wasn't the best of ideas, but there is no moral reason to kill it, and it is better to leave it there than to set it loose. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From salsal19 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 15:49:51 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: JKR's writing vs story Message-ID: <20030516154951.97640.qmail@web80505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57995 I believe that JKR's plot is very strong but sometimes her theme overrides it. I also agree that I,just as you stated, would never be able to rewrite the series as good as JKR did. I believe that what sets HP apart is that JKR makes you THINK you know what is going to happen and then puts a totally different twist on it that leaves your jaw dropped. She uses a lot of symbols in the book for many different reasons. We can speculate what they mean but we may not ever truly know. Characterizations has been compromised for setting many times. As elobarate as some of the settings can be,the characters are stronger than the setting but the setting helps. In regard to another post,someone stated that Molly Weasley was evil and I believe if this is true then whose to say that Harry himself is not evil? Perhaps Harry was related to LV somehow,distant cousin or something,and received some of the traits,perhaps Harry is more powerful than LV and even more evil yet he had the choice to use it for good or evil and he chose good. If you recall, in COS, Dumbledore asked Harry why he was placed in Gryffindor and he said "because I asked it to". Harry has the brains to know that Slytherin is where all the evil wizards go and he wanted to be able to go into Gryffindor to corrupt their minds such as Hermione's. Then,another part of me believes that Ron is evil as well because he and Harry are extremely alike....just pondering. -Sally --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From byujava at yahoo.com Fri May 16 16:04:46 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516160446.16736.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 57996 --- Serena Moonsilver wrote: > Ok, was over at TLC looking at all the pictures they > recently posted, > and in particular the back cover of the special > edition. > > For those who haven't seen it, it shows what looks > like the wing of > an owl flying by an old, boarded up house. > > And I have two thoughts on what that house might be: > > The Shrieking Shack or the Riddle house. > It looks to me like it would be the Riddle house more than the Shrieking Shack. I always pictured the Shrieking Shack to be small, but of course I could be wrong. My first impression was that it was the Shrieking Shack until I saw the size of it. Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 16:38:54 2003 From: jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com (jwilliams44118) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:38:54 -0000 Subject: PS/SS: Hermione's lie about the troll, p.o.v. problem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57997 I'm new to the group... but I did try searching the archive to see if this came up before. I am re-reading the books in anticipation of OoP. In chapter 10 of PS/SS, Hermione's lie does not make sense based on what she should have known. She was not in the great hall when Quirrel ran in. All she knew was that the troll came out of nowhere and attacked her in the bathroom. Then Ron and Harry came in and saved her. So... when the teachers came, it would have made more sense (based on what she knew) for her to simply say, "The troll was going to kill me and they saved me." Her statement in the book, "I went looking for the troll..." makes sense to people who knew about the troll, but is not a lie that should reasonably have occurred to Hermione since she herself lacked the background knowledge. "jwilliams44118" From mpachuta at hotmail.com Fri May 16 16:41:33 2003 From: mpachuta at hotmail.com (Mike Pachuta) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:41:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57998 Steve said: >The Owl- >Notice that the owl... well, the bird, we just assume it is an owl, is >not Hedwig. In the instances that we have seen an owl used on >Voldemorts behalf, I believe it was alway been an eagle owl. Odd that >both Malfoy and Voldemort use eagle owls. Mikie I don't think the bird is an owl at all; I think it more likely that the bird is a phoenix. With that being said, some more questions are raised: If it's the Riddle house, what is a Phoenix doing there - is it leaving the house or is it arriving at the house? Has someone at the house been loyal to Dumbledore and called Fawkes to them? Does this Phoenix (or owl) belong to the person in the window? So many questions....so many questions.... mikie, who wonders if Voldemort will even make an appearance in OotP...perhaps if he doesn't, more people will assume 'Famous Harry Potter' is causing more trouble than he's worth?? _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From acukier at uol.com.br Fri May 16 17:50:11 2003 From: acukier at uol.com.br (alexcukier) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:50:11 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 57999 Voivamus and Darry wrote: "Canon: When Voldemort went to kill Harry, he had just killed James. Lily knew he was there to kill Harry. Voldemort told Lily to stand aside. When she didn't obey him right away, he told her to stand aside *again.* When she didn't stand aside after (at least) two warnings, he killed her, then tried to kill Harry. This is a classic case of two views of the same canon. Where you see two warnings as being a real effort to move Lily (and to be fair, it was probably more than what he usually did), I think it was a pretty poor effort if he really wanted to kill Harry without killing her. pg 134 UK (Grim Defeat) - Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead--" Later on the page. "-Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy..." Obviously we don't know for sure that this is what really happened, but I tend to believe this is Harry's subconscious memories, and they are fairly accurate. And in the first film, the James and Lily death scene, which Lexicon (I believe) considers canon because JKR wrote it, Lily wasn't attacking." Now Me: I believe that we are in the right track about the real motives Voldemort had to kill Harry. If you read carefully the quote above we can see that: 1) Lilly knew that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry (possibly the motive, too). 2) She believed(or hoped) that she could be killed instead of Harry (what turns stronger that she would know the motive). 3) Voldemort were ther to kill at least Harry and SHE REALLY COULD NOT BE KILLED, or her words would be in vain (because she would be killed anyways...) That brings the old discussion about Mrs Trellawney first correct prediction or some black magic in order to give voldemort esternal Life. I personally believe that the VOLDEMORT HAD A LIFE BOND WITH LILLY AND BY AN ANCIENT MAGIC TRANSFERED THIS BOND TO HARRY (any ideas of an acronym with this idea?). But I believe that Canon at least confirm the 1-3 ideas above. Alex Cukier, The Brazilian Huge Fan - looking for a new english teacher - "Pure Mother's Bond", would be a Freudian band name, Darry? From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri May 16 18:25:25 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 18:25:25 -0000 Subject: PS/SS: Hermione's lie about the troll, p.o.v. problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58000 "jwilliams44118" wrote: > I'm new to the group... but I did try searching the archive to see if > this came up before. I am re-reading the books in anticipation of > OoP. In chapter 10 of PS/SS, Hermione's lie does not make sense > based on what she should have known. > > She was not in the great hall when Quirrel ran in. All she knew was > that the troll came out of nowhere and attacked her in the bathroom. > Then Ron and Harry came in and saved her. > > So... when the teachers came, it would have made more sense (based on > what she knew) for her to simply say, "The troll was going to kill me > and they saved me." Her statement in the book, "I went looking for > the troll..." makes sense to people who knew about the troll, but is > not a lie that should reasonably have occurred to Hermione since she > herself lacked the background knowledge. > > "jwilliams44118" It does make sense from a certain perspective. Let me explain: let's go through what Hermione might be thinking. She's very unhappily in the bathroom (not unlike moaning myrtle was) and suddenly a troll barges in, closely followed by Ron and Harry. Now, examine the circunstance: what is she going to think their motives are? coming to rescue her? unlikely, from her perspective. Remember what is the last thing she heard: *Ron* of all people sayin "No wonder everyone hates her". What has she been thinking for the last several hours? That people must indeed hate her. And if not everyone, certainly Ron and Harry. particularly Ron, who said it out loud when she was eithin earshot. So They are not there for her (she doesn't know Harry's good heart yet, after all), so what *are* they doing? Well, hunting troll, trying to demonstrate their foolhardiness or whatever. But that sort of thing could get them expelled, and after a bonding session with the troll ("There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a 12-foot mountain troll is one of them"), the teachers arrive, angry, and she decides that, since she owes them, she might as well take the blame herself, just in case the teachers start laying blame. Remember that teachers, from the perspective of an eleven year old, do that. They're scared, and Hermione knows that there is no excuse for facing a troll. Except coming to save a live, so she tells them that they did. And now she has to explain what *she* was doing in the bathroom, but that is the sort of private thing she doesn't want to reveal, and since she already has the idea of hunting trolls in her mind (and the teachers might guess just as she did that if she was there crying, the boys couldn't have been trying to save her since they're not suposed to know and besides are heartless idiots), she uses it to take the blame, and thus, in a way, take it fully so none of it splashes on his new found friends. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 19:22:42 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516192242.71217.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58001 Steve said: >The Owl- >Notice that the owl... well, the bird, we just assume it is an owl, is >not Hedwig. In the instances that we have seen an owl used on >Voldemorts behalf, I believe it was alway been an eagle owl. Odd that >both Malfoy and Voldemort use eagle owls. Mikie I don't think the bird is an owl at all; I think it more likely that the bird is a phoenix. With that being said, some more questions are raised: If it's the Riddle house, what is a Phoenix doing there - is it leaving the house or is it arriving at the house? Has someone at the house been loyal to Dumbledore and called Fawkes to them? Does this Phoenix (or owl) belong to the person in the window? So many questions....so many questions.... mikie, who wonders if Voldemort will even make an appearance in OotP...perhaps if he doesn't, more people will assume 'Famous Harry Potter' is causing more trouble than he's worth?? ME: Personally, knowing Ms. Rowling's perchant for introducing new places and things to us each book, this is very probably someplace where we haven't seen yet. I personally doubt it is either the Riddle House or the Shrieking Shack or anyplace we know. That would be consistant with her style and logically it is a big world out there and we have indeed been shown so little of it that it would also make sense that this, for good or ill is an entirely new place. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 19:26:59 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:26:59 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58002 > Steve said: > > >The Owl- > >Notice that the owl... well, the bird, we just assume it is an owl, is > >not Hedwig. In the instances that we have seen an owl used on > >Voldemorts behalf, I believe it was alway been an eagle owl. Odd that > >both Malfoy and Voldemort use eagle owls. > > Mikie wrote: > > I don't think the bird is an owl at all; I think it more likely that the > bird is a phoenix. With that being said, some more questions are raised: If > it's the Riddle house, what is a Phoenix doing there - is it leaving the > house or is it arriving at the house? Has someone at the house been loyal > to Dumbledore and called Fawkes to them? Does this Phoenix (or owl) belong > to the person in the window? > > So many questions....so many questions.... > > mikie, who wonders if Voldemort will even make an appearance in > OotP...perhaps if he doesn't, more people will assume 'Famous Harry Potter' > is causing more trouble than he's worth?? When I saw the wings and saw that it was red, I automatically thought that it is a phoenix. I also thought that the house would be the Shrieking Shrack, the Potter home or the Riddle's home, but being that Bill and Steve have described the Shrack as a small place, I've disregarded that thought; the Potter home was destroyed (to what degree we don't know) so that can't be the same house in the picture. The only one that is left is the Riddle home and i have to agree with Bill that in this picture it seems as though there is someone looking out of the window. For some reason, I think it's Wormtail. Have you guys seen this picture: http://www.mugglenet.com/images/ootp-promostand.jpg It shows three persons, one of them is obviously Mad Eye Moody. The other two are up for speculation, but I personally think that the boy with the spikey hair is Ron because he has freckles and his nose is long as JKR describes him. So could Ron be the one to kick the boot in OOP. It is said that "...Harry finds depth and strength in his friends, beyond what even he knew; boundless loyalty and unbearable sacrifice." The only thing that makes me doubt that it is Ron is that in chapter pictures is his hair looks wavy. Greicy From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 16 19:33:03 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516193303.19569.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58003 --- Greicy wrote: > now we won't > be able to predict > who will be their captain. Lynn: Oh, I think it's pretty much a given the Draco Malfoy will be Captain for Slytherin House - even if Daddy has to buy the whole team Firebolts, which wouldn't surprise me. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Fri May 16 19:33:36 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:33:36 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58004 Linda wrote: > What we're seeing here is a four story stone structure that > doesn't really fit any building desription that we have seen in > cannon. I think it's extremely possible that the structure is not > even in Britain. Could Harry possibly do a little travelling in OoP? > Maybe we are seeing Durmstrang or Beauxbatons. It would be in keeping > with previous books that the cover that we are relying upon to give > us clues is showing us a part of the WW that we have no or very > little knowledge of. As I recall we are supposed to be going to a new > location in the WW in OoP. IMHO that is what we're seeing on this > cover. Yes, but if you look at the windows, you'll see one boarded up on the first floor and a broken one on the 2nd floor. Unless we're seeing one of the other schools from the Muggles' POV (enchanted to look like ruins), I doubt it's one of the other wizarding schools. Based on the description we have in GoF, I'm inclined to believe it IS the Riddle house: GoF (US hardback, pg 1) >>> It stood on a hill overlooking the village, some of its windows boarded, tiles missing from its roof, and ivy spreading unchecked over its face. ONce a fine-looking manor, and easily the largest and grandest building for miles around, the Riddle House was now damp, derelict, and unoccupied. <<< To me, that description in GoF fits this illustration to a "T". We see ivy growing on the face of the house, broken/boarded up windows and a very tall, stately and once grand building that looks distinctly abandoned. Bill wrote: >The feathers on the wing seem to be red. Considering that the title >of the book is 'HP and the Order of the Phoenix', I suspect that the >bird is Fawkes. As to the color of the wings, the look like they could be either brown or red, so I don't think we can make a determination at this point if it is an owl or a phoenix. bowlwoman From helen.young at pgen.com Fri May 16 14:21:56 2003 From: helen.young at pgen.com (young_he2003) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:21:56 -0000 Subject: Y does DD trust SS? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58005 I'm new so don't expect this to be too coherent Something bothers me. If we believe Moody/Crouch then there is no defense to the AK, no counter curse and no cure. I believe him. Therefore, regardless of Lily's protection, Harry did not survive the AK because the there is no protection. Now, everyone knows the full story of the events at Godric Hollow, but how can this be so seeing as no-one survived the events except a baby? I mean, even before the events of PS and the conversation of Voldy/Quirrel it was common knowledge that Lily died protecting Harry and that Harry was cursed but that it failed and Voldy fled - a shadow of his former self. But how does everyone know this? What if there actually was someone there, someone who conviced DD where his loyalties really are by cursing voldy just in time to save Harry. The AK wasn't properly cast (though it clearly did something as Harry has a curse scar). It gives Snape a good reason for hating Harry (apart from the LOLLIPOPS theory which I'm sorry to say I haven't really bought into yet) as Harry is, albeit unwittingly, taking credit for something that Snape achieved even though he can't even remember it, had nothing to do with it and is popular and accepted wherever he goes - something which our poor Severus probably never was. But I suspect some at least of the Death Eaters know it wasn't something special or unbeatable about Harry. Voldemort finds the idea laughable in front of a circle of them in GoF. But also Lucius says 'It is not wise to be so anti-HP given that most of our kind believe him to be the cause of Voldy's downfall' or some such. Implying that he and Malfoy junior know differently. Also, there is still time for Trelawney's first prediction to come true (if you believe it was that Harry would kill V). Voldemort is alive, well and yet to be done in. Talking about predictions I'm pretty sure that there's more to the Bane and Firenze conversation in PS. Apologies if this has come up before but Firenze had seen something in the stars and was eager to rescue Harry from what was lurking in the forest. Did Firenze see that V would attack / kill Harry? Personally I think both predictions can come true and at the end of book 7 H and V get in a big fist fight and both die. Or something. hmmm... but i can't explain why lily didn't need to die. the text so far suggests she would have been left alone if she allowed H to die. don't know why. & while I'm here, when James saved SS life we're assuming it was about saving him from Moony after Sirius' prank. But can't help feeling there's something more to it than that and there's a deeper james-saving-severus story going on. the snape/sirius dislike is too strong, verging on hatred, for it to be based on this prank and childhood feuds. surely we find out more on this later. Please please. Helen. From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 16 20:25:44 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:25:44 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58006 Grey Wolf wrote: > > Of course, the legend isn't true: Harry opens the chamber too. I > discount Harry being somehow descendant of Voldemort (mainly because > it's too StarWars-ish, which JKR told us it is not and because I have > the feeling Voldemort cannot reproduce in his snake form anyway), so > the only way for Harry to be descendant is by the tricky business of > cousin selection I mentioned above, and I find the whole idea > unprobable. My read of why Harry could open the Chamber -- which hinges on him being a Parselmouth -- is because of transfer of power from V-Mort's attack when he was a baby. That is Dumbledore's theory, anyway, and since we're relying on him to deduce so much more, his theory must be at least considered. So essentially, it was whatever remnant of V-Mort that is bouncing around in Harry's head that opened the Chamber, so in a way, Riddle IS still the only one who can open the thing. > I believe, without canon to back me up, that when Salazar left he left > the country and founded Durmstrang, with policies that suited him > better. He didn't take the basilisk with him for purely logistic > problems: taking a 20 metre long snake that must weight over a ton, can > kill with a stare, is very poisonous and is extrictly regulated since > ancient times (maybe) across Europe isn't going to be an easy job. So > he leaves it in the school - he hasn't got the heart to kill his little > pet, and it is quite capable to take care of itself anyway. He doesn't > have to be evil - at the time, his ideas maked sense, even if they were > radical. Maybe leaving the basilisk in the school wasn't the best of > ideas, but there is no moral reason to kill it, and it is better to > leave it there than to set it loose. I don't know. We've got cloaks that can cover dragon crates and spells that can make things feather-light. It seems like it wouldn't be nearly as difficult as one would think. Darrin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 16 20:33:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:33:23 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Steve wrote: > > What are the odds that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is not the true > > Heir of Slytherin but the self-proclaimed Heir of Slytherin. > Grey Wold returns: > > The chances of Tom Riddle being a descendant of Salazar are high. > Very high, in fact. So are the chances of all others in the WW, not > only of being descendant of Salazar but of all the founders at the > same time. > > ...mega edit... > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf bboy_mn: Very true. When I said 'Heir' I meant it more metaphorically than literally. In Tom's mind he is the heir, but in reality, I think it highly unlikely that he has ever documented that. But, while there are thousands in whom the blood of Salazar Slytherin flows, Riddle seems to have concluded that his isn't A decendant of Slytherin but that he is THE decendant of Slytherin. That somehow he is special, far more important, powerful, and very very special than all those other thousands and thousands of people who can find a point at which their family tree intersects with the Slytherin family tree. I really do think that Riddle is self-proclaimed. In his desperate need to be somebody special and important, he has justified himself with a delusional belief that he has some special and siginficant connection to someone great (Slytherin), and that special connection is his believed birthright by which he justifies all things. There is the 'Divine Right of Kings', which says that all kings and queen are king and queens by the demand and decree of God himself, and since they are chosen by and acting in the name of God, they can do no wrong; regardless of how insanely wrong their actions obviously are. Riddle does the same thing, by Divine Right of Slytherin, everything he says is the word of 'god'. I'm also inclind to believe that the LEGEND of Salazar Slytherin is far more menacing that Mr. Slytherin himself. All he ever said was that he didn't trust Muggle-borns, all this other stuff about killing them all, blah-blah-blah... has been tacked on as the 'legend' grew. As far as the Basilisk and the legend of the chamber, I think we are on the same page. Slytherin didn't leave it there, that is, leave it there with calculated intent, he just left it there. Left it there for convinience; if it lived, fine, if it died, fine. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From tminton at deckerjones.com Fri May 16 16:14:44 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:14:44 -0500 Subject: Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE974F@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58008 Here are a few thoughts on Winky, GOP, and maybe leading into OOP.... WHAT IF: Winky is actually Barty Crouch JR'S house elf. Meaning that Barty Crouch Sr could not REALLY have "fired" her from service. Maybe he just told her to get out of his house since Jr wasn't there any longer. SOOOO because of this Winky cannot find Jr so she goes along with Dobby to Hogwarts. That could explain why she won't tell any secrets and why she is sooo upset about his absence. ALSO, remember when she sees Jr in Moody's office she runs to him and calls him "Master". SOOO what do you think?? I think I am on to something, or maybe I am so desperate for next month that I am delusional.. Don't be afraid to tell me if I am I can go back to my dark corner with my stuffed Hedwig. Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 21:15:35 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516211535.81155.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > Steve wrote: > > What are the odds that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is not the true > > Heir of Slytherin but the self-proclaimed Heir of Slytherin. ME: No question he is the Heir of Slytherin. Dumbledore himself said he was in CoS. That isn't self-proclaimed at all. Also to say that the legend of Slytherin is far more menacing then the old geezer himself is making presumptions that we know ABSOLUTELY nothing about. Just as to say he left the Basisisk behind just for "convienience" is also kind of far-fetched as we have no idea why he left it behind. But a chamber like that and such a horrid deadly creature like that is a funny thing indeed to be leaving behind "just for convienience." I think we cannot presume to know much of anything about good old Slytherin right now except that Tom Riddle IS his last decendent and heir. Whether Slytherin would have been proud of him or ashamed of him, we cannot even begin to guess. But there IS reasons to think that ridding Hogsworth of muggle-borns would be a good and noble task but there is no reason to think he would have approved of Lord Voldmort's attempts to ruthlessly and bloodily take over the world! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 16 21:10:11 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 21:10:11 -0000 Subject: Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts In-Reply-To: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE974F@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonya Minton" wrote: > Here are a few thoughts on Winky, GOP, and maybe leading into OOP.... > > WHAT IF: > > Winky is actually Barty Crouch JR'S house elf. To be honest, I don't think this much matters -- even if it were true, both Crouches are dead, so Winky has no master anymore. Further, in one of the kitchen scenes in GoF, I seem to recall that Dobby certainly talks about how Winky is having trouble adjusting to freedom. I don't think he would have said this if she weren't truly free, and Dobby would presumably be in a position to know. But you do have me wondering about what happens to a house-elf when its master dies. Given that it's a slave, I suppose it might be inherited if there is someone to inherit it, but what if there isn't? In any event, I would not be surprised if the house-elves generally play a larger role as a group than they have done so far. It is possible that JKR was using Hermione's indignation over their treatment simply to flesh out Hermione's character a bit, but I think that this was more likely to be a bit of foreshadowing concerning a possible future alliance of house-elves and wizards. I just hope they don't get portrayed like Ewoks. One last thought -- why would Winky (I think it was Winky) say that Bagman was a bad wizard yet fail to recognize Evil!Barty right under her own nose? Was this simply misplaced loyalty? Ersatz Harry From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 19:45:40 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:45:40 -0000 Subject: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 In-Reply-To: <20030516193303.19569.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58011 > --- Greicy wrote: > > now we won't > > be able to predict > > who will be their captain. > > > Lynn: > > Oh, I think it's pretty much a given the Draco > Malfoy will be Captain for Slytherin House - even > if Daddy has to buy the whole team Firebolts, > which wouldn't surprise me. That's right! How could I forget about Malfoy? If he's going to become captain, I think it'd be great if Harry became captain. I don't know why though, but I think it'd be a good idea. I guess because they're adversaries and it'll make their hate for one another even deeper. =) Greicy From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 16 21:31:16 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:31:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts References: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE974F@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: <002901c31bf2$7c1b37e0$55ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58012 Tonya wrote: > Here are a few thoughts on Winky, GOP, and maybe leading into OOP.... > > WHAT IF: > > Winky is actually Barty Crouch JR'S house elf. Meaning that Barty > Crouch Sr could not REALLY have "fired" her from service. Maybe he just > told her to get out of his house since Jr wasn't there any longer. > SOOOO because of this Winky cannot find Jr so she goes along with Dobby > to Hogwarts. That could explain why she won't tell any secrets and why > she is sooo upset about his absence. ALSO, remember when she sees Jr in > Moody's office she runs to him and calls him "Master". > > SOOO what do you think?? I think I am on to something, or maybe I am so > desperate for next month that I am delusional.. Don't be afraid to tell > me if I am I can go back to my dark corner with my stuffed Hedwig. I think that a house elf stays in a family for generations, so would belong to the entire family. Therefore she would call both Crouch Sr. and Jr. Master. Crouch Sr., being the head of the household, would have the ultimate authority on firing her. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 19:26:23 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:JKR's writing vs story In-Reply-To: <20030516154951.97640.qmail@web80505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030516192623.98321.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58013 I believe that JKR's plot is very strong but sometimes her theme overrides it. I also agree that I,just as you stated, would never be able to rewrite the series as good as JKR did. I believe that what sets HP apart is that JKR makes you THINK you know what is going to happen and then puts a totally different twist on it that leaves your jaw dropped. She uses a lot of symbols in the book for many different reasons. We can speculate what they mean but we may not ever truly know. Characterizations has been compromised for setting many times. As elobarate as some of the settings can be,the characters are stronger than the setting but the setting helps. In regard to another post,someone stated that Molly Weasley was evil and I believe if this is true then whose to say that Harry himself is not evil? Perhaps Harry was related to LV somehow,distant cousin or something,and received some of the traits,perhaps Harry is more powerful than LV and even more evil yet he had the choice to use it for good or evil and he chose good. If you recall, in COS, Dumbledore asked Harry why he was placed in Gryffindor and he said "because I asked it to". Harry has the brains to know that Slytherin is where all the evil wizards go and he wanted to be able to go into Gryffindor to corrupt their minds such as Hermione's. Then,another part of me believes that Ron is evil as well because he and Harry are extremely alike....just pondering. -Sally Me: I fell for that the first couple books. It seems at times a funny little child's tale and you absolutely know exactly what the plot is and the whole storyline is so simple (well it was in the first book but STILL was surprising) and where it's going and then find out there is a whole lot more to the story then you realized! I don't make that mistake anymore. I figure now I'm going to be surprised. And the entire story has gotten much more sophisticated and complex. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Fri May 16 18:38:58 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:38:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces and Adopted!harry... References: <1DAD3742-84D9-11D7-8508-000A27E2A402@dionysia.org> Message-ID: <003f01c31bdb$ee5a29e0$dfe81d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58014 Was Buckbeak killed at first in PoA? I had an impression he was actually decapitated. And afterwards the deer appears. Note: If time traveling works consequently - Hippogriff should be dead and there should be no deer at the first version of events. OR Hippogriff should be spared nad deer should appear. Another mistake? - I suppose so. But I have to check it up Anyway travelling to the past once used does change events. According to some samples given by JKR people rather go through the time already changed, not live in the parallel space TWICE. So traveling in time works like this: I go through time and see the deer - where is it from? Afterwards I use time turner and get back in time and send Deer The Patronus, I already saw. Whatever I did in my future (wow, what a wire sentence...) is an objective past. From: asandhp Subject: [HPforGrownups] Adopted!Harry is Really.. TTTR Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:48 AM >>The only conclusion worthy of HP would be for Harry to be Voldemort himself. Not his son or father or brother; that is Star Wars. Harry is Tom Riddle, time-turned to the 1980's as an infant and adopted by Lily and James.<< ***Koticzka's comment: In this case the seventh book would be called Tom Riddle and the Chamber of Secrets - The Repetitory or New Begining To make consequences crystal - the series would have to finish on the sixth book if it is to describe the sixth year of Harry in Hogwarts'9x. The last year the Boy-Who-Lived would spent in Hogwarts'4x - fifty years earlier (where is the cannon???? - smirk)... By the way - if V. would intend to kill Harry traveling back in time he (who? - I got lost!) must know he had not succeed and be defeated. Because it actually happened! Any hope for success is a proof of naivety if not stupidity. It is as if there was time of time, another continuity of consequences which cannot be manipulated. One point confuses me there: the decision is being made afterwards. But you will not resign, because you have already decided. So we live in the past, even when the future is actually to happen. If Ms. JKR solved this problem, she should be granted the Nobel Prize (not that I am that intelligent, but it is pradoxus which confuse some bright Muggle minds) ;) Another explanation - time travelling is for fools, who believe they can change what was already changed and/or established. Please, note that I mean time traveling not consideration of the consequences - before anyone felt insulted (the insulted group would have to include me, as I consider TT pretty often!) Best regards Ethernal Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Fri May 16 18:42:30 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:42:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dueling Club - a plot or an accident? References: <19a.14bc87b6.2bef3d4d@aol.com> Message-ID: <004301c31bdb$f326cd20$dfe81d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58015 From: jodel at aol.com >>Lockhart may have come up with the idea of the Dueling Club independently, or someone may have mentioned Dueling in the staff room and Lockhart grabbed the idea and ran with it. In any case it was on Dumbledore's direction that Snape agreed to assist, and to test the theory, since Harry was refusing to talk."<< ***Koticzka's comment: I guess it's a piece of cake to manoeuvre or to convince Mr. Lockhart that the idea of Duelling Club is his originally... (just an office technique used sometimes towards colleagues or even your boss ;) ) >>Dumbledore wanted to know what Harry would do when confronted by a snake. Snape pretty obviously told him, for he was perfectly ready with the theory that Harry had gotten the gift of Parselmouth from Voldemort... etc. << ***Koticzka's comment: I also like the idea of Dumbledore and Snape making a plot in the Headmaster's office (nice view, nice conversation...) X) Still, doesn't it seem too sophisticated to be true?... ***Koticzka's suggestion: And finally - what else could a Slytherin use if not his main symbol, which is the snake itself? And throwing "Serpensortia" just to show off - wouln't it be in the guys' style? ;) In books (and in real life - if you have not noticed) things happen accidentally (not discussing Destiny here!). And authors use them for their purpose. I would not like to underestimate this particular scene, but exaggerating, however, is in my style, would not appear now either. Why Snape was not described as frightened or panicked (am I mistaken??) - I can bet he saw worse things not to be scared by a student. Even if it is Harry Potter! Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From koticzka at wp.pl Fri May 16 18:45:36 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:45:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes - Snape - ultimate Slyth, Lily, pure bloods and more References: <001201c3189d$86eeb9b0$4accaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <004401c31bdc$36d8f890$dfe81d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58016 ----- Original Message ----- From: Kelly Grosskreutz >>On the contrary, I see Snape as the ultimate Slytherin. << ***Koticzka's comment: I liked your explanation very much! Well, if not by some characteristic features they would organize a lottery or divide students by names. The point I do not agree with is that I do not see Snape as the ultimate Slytherin. Accent on "ultimate". He is certainly Slyth and I do not suppose that the Sorting hat had any trouble with him! Or rather: being the ultimate Slytherin does not say whether one is good ar bad. His way of acting would not indicate it for me. I still consider breaking rules as not noble and moral (ethical) - regardless of who is doing it! From: darrin_burnett [Snape] maybe kill a muggle-born he didn't want to kill... say someone named after a flower starting with the letter "L"? ***Koticzka's comment: Not likely. Considering Harry's memories... No, I will not prove it now. I do not believe thoeries like this, Snape's love for Lilly - not mentioned by you... I do not think Snape is good in setting strategies (as Ron Weasley is - chess!). He uses logical thinking - rare in WW (Hermione's statement during solving the riddle in PS/SS) - perhaps it is his strengh and weakness at the same time? (refering to Darrin DEFENDING STONE WAS - logic is not in a "magical good behaviour style"). Oh, not on the subject, forgive me, I am apparrently in love... Coming to the point: he has his aim and follows it. The aim is to defeat Voldemort. To protect good and fight evil. Which does not exclude teasing, being malicious and all those adjectives I do not know, virtues which make him so hard and nasty in everyday living. Yet he happens to be noble (life-debts again). Pure blood or not? Hm, difficult question but maybe not that difficult as some mudblood's life in the great House of Slytherin? Does Snape care? Or perhaps he has bigger problems? Or perhaps he does understand the difference between good and evil and treats them - Muggles or at lest Mudbloods as equals? Which I suppose he does... NOT - that Muggles are a concern. I suppose that the abilities of someone's mind are more important to him, which includes magical abilities, too, which you could grant to Ravenclaw rather... More comments on Darrin post coming soon. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From koticzka at wp.pl Fri May 16 18:42:05 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:42:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New(?) observations..... - bulldogs' tails and horses jaws References: Message-ID: <004201c31bdb$f25a0740$dfe81d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58017 From: probonoprobono >>I believe Millicent Bulstrode was described as "pug-faced" once and Vernon as "bearing down on Harry like a great bulldog, all his teeth bared." (...) Harry had accidently stepped on the tail of one of Aunt Marge's dogs and it chased him up a tree. I found this so odd since Marge bred bulldogs and by golly it is near impossible to step on the tail of a bulldog! ***Koticzka's comment: Tanya is right about bulldogs' tails - unless you let it grow and not cut it. I do not like cutting! NO! NO! NO! And showing dogs might be controversial, I know people who despise this kind of... entertainment??? Milicenta in my translation has something called horse-jaw... From: Coble, Katherine >>I wonder if JKR even likes dogs. She certainly made the Dog Fanciers to be a minor villain in Book 3. ***Koticzka's comment: Yes, she apparently loves Sirius Black, but perhaps JKR does not like bulldogs (who does???!!!) Koticzka (by the way: you may translate Koticzka as little girl-cat and in Czech - just a cat... supposedly) How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 16 21:56:58 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:56:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? References: Message-ID: <003601c31bf6$1584b7f0$268d6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58018 Bill: Well, the building had four floors, so I doubt that it is the Shrieking Shack. The term 'shack' implies something smaller. I do agree that the image fits the description of the Riddle house quite nicely. One thing that I noticed is that if you look at the spine of the book, right at the top, on the fourth floor, (or attic) you see a brightly lit window with the shadow of a man looking out. You-Know- Who? Me (izaskun): I don't think is the Riddle house. One, because Voldemort is not that idiot and now that Harry as told DUmbledore what happened the night of the Triwizard Tournament, it would be only too easy to find LV if he stayed at the Riddle house. ANd from the description of the house I always pictured it as a two storey building. "Standing at the sink, filling the kettle, he looked up at the Riddle House and saw lights glimmering in its upper windows..." "...He reached the hall, which was a little lighter owing to the large mullioned windows on either side of the front door, and started to climb the stairs, blessing the dust that lay thick upon the stone, because it muffled the sound of his feet and stick. On the landing, Frank turned right, and saw at once where the intruders were: At the every end of the passage a door stood ajar, and a flickering light shone through the gap, casting a long sliver of gold across the black floor." GoF, CHapter 1 I think it's the Potter's or St. Mungo's. But maybe I'm wrong. Cheers, IZaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Fri May 16 18:45:48 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:45:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes - awarding the bravery???!!! References: Message-ID: <004501c31bdc$37b68750$dfe81d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58019 Hello, Darrin! I look forward your further messages, I appreciate your voice in discussions very much! Yet, it is hard to keep a finger on so many topics that I am keen on. How do people find time for updating so often? I demand fewer conferences and seminars and more time for surfing instead of insurance and coffee-breaks at work. So what I was about? From: darrin_burnett Koticzka wrote at first: >when you break the rule because you need to (steal some food to survive, kill in self defence) - that might be eventually be forgiven. But for pleasure? For fun? For reward? That is not what I could call "higher priority". Darrin wrote: >>But Harry, Ron and Hermione and Neville didn't break the rules in going after the Stone for pleasure, fun, or reward. In fact, Harry specifically dismisses the entire idea of losing house points when he says, paraphrasing, "Don't you get it? If Voldemort gets the stone, there won't BE a House Cup." ***Koticzka's comment: I know that the Trio was not look for fun and was concious of the risk as much as kids might be (not ironically, just noticing the young minds!). Yet winning The Cup seems fun to me. It is a reward, I know the idea. I understand the point that the Trio should be rewarded for what they have done. Why with The Cup? (Because it would hurt more, the Sheriff of Nottingham would answer probably - Alan Rickman's accent - might be amusing, however useless here). As I remember, there are a couple of other means to reward a student, especially a single one (or three of them, not the whole House at once) - mentioned in the books. But it must have been points toward The Cup. Darrin wrote: >>Again, without Draco's getting Harry, Neville and Hermione in trouble, the points would have been much, much closer. And further say there is no Stone to mess with (and earn points from). The standings would have been Slyth just slightly ahead... etc<< (lots of sensible arguments, Koticzka admits!) ***Koticzka's comment: I already pointed out that I consider it "an eye for an eye" which is "unfair for unfair" in this particular case. I deny admitting anything else unless it's proven that Dumbledore acted according to the rules by suddenly giving extra points! Darrin quoting Koticzka: > and suddenly an old freaky wizard is rewarding Harry for > something he did (Beg your pardon - what in fact is the reason, what did he do?) >>I don't believe I'm still having this debate. What did he do? Oh... beat Flitwick's flying charm, took on the Dark Lord, who was inhabiting the body of the DADA teacher, figured out Dumbledore's puzzle and lived to tell the tale. Showed bravery and self-sacrifice. Nothing much.<< ***Koticzka's comment: Sorry, little misunderstanding - I was trying to show what other kids could have felt and thought of the accident. So those would be words/thoughts of a Slytherin student watching the Headmaster with surprise at least. DADA teacher and Voldemort under his skin - still unconcious of Snape's betrayal? - I am still trying to solve Riddle's riddle... It is not connected, I know. Darrin wrote: >>Please, stop trying to play it that Harry -- and the others -- did nothing down beneath the school. Argue if you will that Harry's bravery, Hermione's cleverness and Ron's self-sacrifice are outweighed by the fact that they were out of their beds, but PLEASE stop treating their actions as nothing. ***Koticzka's comment: I actually read the book while jumping on the seat and scared that Ron might really be hurt. I was trying to help Hermione solve Snape's riddle (laugh). I was almost sure that Harry would win but ALMOST is killing... I have my heart in the right place - on my left side (smirk). I am not a monster. I am trying to be as honest as possible in crazy times - and I have experienced that wise and honest paths sometimes are not only painful but really cause suffering (forgive poor grammar). And this is the message I am trying to pass on. This is what I would like to teach children. Please, notice that I do not complain about the Trio. But DUMBLEDORE. It is not the way you give a crystal example. And no matter how full of compassion I am for those kids who suffer humiliation because of every possible reason (Hermione's solitude touches me most, how long it takes to become wise enough not to be too wise? but it would be Slytherin's path, wouldn't it?). Well, although Harry is accused of egoism sometimes (well... maybe a bit) - I cannot remember the message or the author now - he did not deserve in any moment such treatment. Well, far as I am from becoming a saint, the words above are really not empty for me. Darrin wrote: >>Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs were cheering the Gryffindor victory -- and the Slytherin loss. They seem OK with it.<< ***Koticzka's comment: Yes... Well, I cannot resist the impression that nobody likes the Slyths. They do not have an easy life either, I suspect. This is why I like them - for getting on with it. With their families, prejudices, hatred. Perhaps this is also why Snape favours them - because they need someone to trust in? To always be by their side, no matter the circumstances? It is not my idea, I met in some fanfiction story ("Whole Again" by Leila B, I guess) and I liked it. It is not about compassion, it is something more - strenghening their own personalities? Giving credit of trust? I cannot name it, cannot think it of right now to explain. Slytherins' victory has never been shown joyfully, has it? Especially in movies. Oh, yes, they work for it, but this is about stereotypes, which tend to work both sides - we are what the others want us to be... Before you answer - I know that Harry needs a mentor too - and he finds him. "We like Harry Potter!" Well, like him further. But let us not be blind nor live stereotypes. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. P.S. Forgive some strange letters and words, my rat is writing this time with me... :))) And I might have missed more than usually... From echa_schneider at mac.com Fri May 16 21:44:58 2003 From: echa_schneider at mac.com (echa_schneider at mac.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:44:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Parseltongue Rarity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58020 Darrin wrote: >> A defense that can only be unleashed and controlled via a >> Parselmouth? When there -- apparently -- have been only two such >> gifted people in the last 1,000 years? Then, persephone_kore wrote: > Er... well, first of all, we have names for three, Salazar, Riddle, > and Harry (unless Hogwarts was founded far enough back that Salazar > died before the thousand-year mark). Second, see the bit about > Runespoors -- I suppose Rowling could have been careless, but it seems > somewhat unlikely to me that Salazar Slytherin and Tom Riddle are > responsible for all known discussions (or eavesdroppings) with > Runespoors. I think the talent is rare, but not quite THAT rare. Tom > Riddle is perhaps not always a terribly reliable source. The text is, I believe, contradictory about the rarity of Parselmouth. Riddle (or perhaps it's Dumbledore) tells Harry explicitly that he and Riddle are the only two Parselmouths to have ever attended Hogwarts. This, of couse, allows for the possibility of non-British, Parseltongues since Slytherin, but still marks the talent as one that cannot reasonably be expected to surface in any wizard more often than every few hundred years. However, everyone knows what Parseltongue is, that it's a mark of a dark wizard, that it's something to be suspicious of. Were the talent truly so rare that it had only existed in two people over the last thousand years, it seems utterly abusrb that it's existence would be common knowledge or that it would have a name that's part of the common vocabulary. The argument that the gift isn't that common has come up a few times against Darrin's post, and this may have already been stated, since I'm still a day behind, but I just wanted to point the apparent inconsistency out. People are free to take from it what they like regarding the likelihood of a Parselmouth being able to control the Basilik against an attack at a random point in Hogwarts's history. For me, it's suspect. "echa_schneider" From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Fri May 16 21:47:36 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 21:47:36 -0000 Subject: Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58021 "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > One last thought -- why would Winky (I think it was Winky) say that > Bagman was a bad wizard yet fail to recognize Evil!Barty right under > her own nose? Was this simply misplaced loyalty? I'm thinking it had to do with the fact that Crouch Sr. was zealous in his pursuit of Dark Wizards and/or their informants and Bagman got off by being a celebrity. (Maybe we should call this theory MarciaClark!Crouch.) I'm sure that Crouch Sr. went home and complained about it to no end and Winky took his comments as the unvarnished truth. bowlwoman From shokoono at gmx.de Fri May 16 18:42:35 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (finchenmcsockschneck) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 18:42:35 -0000 Subject: Perseus is possible--> look at all the other charakters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58022 I really favour this theory for many reasons (maybe some was allready written, so if it is, plese don't AK me ): perseus is a character of the greek mythology an JK often uses names that are telling names... Hedwig, Minerva, Albus .... an it woult fit that he is a half-brother of lilly and petunia. not convinced yet? well here is something like a proove: Perseus is the son of Zeus, the king of the Greek gods, and a mortal woman. The woman's husband, Polydectes, king of Seriphos, was naturally angry, but when your wife has an affair with a god, what can you do? So, instead, when Perseus grew up Polydectes sent him on what he believed was an impossible quest. The king sent his step-son out to kill Medusa, one of three sisters called the Gorgons who were so ugly, anyone who looked at them would turn to stone. He appealed to the gods for help and was given a mirrored shield by Athena, the goddess of wisdom, and a pair of winged sandals by Hermes (also know as Mercury), the messenger of the gods. Perseus flew using the sandals to find Medusa. When he found her, he did not look at her. Instead, he used the reflection in the shield to guide his sword so he could behead her as she slept. As she died, the white, winged horse Pegasus sprang from her neck. On his way back from his victory against the Gorgons, Perseus came across a woman chained to a rock, waiting to be sacrificed to a sea monster, called either Cetus or Draco, depending on which version of the myth you believe. This woman was Andromeda, the Princess. Her mother, Cassiopeia boasted that she and her daughter were more beautiful than the Nereids (or sea nymphs), which were the daughters of Poseidon (or Neptune), the god of the sea. Angered by the insult to his daughters, Poseidon sent floods to the lands ruled by Cassiopeia and her husband, King Cepheus. Cepheus consulted an oracle who told him that the only way to quell Poseidon's anger was to sacrifice his daughter. Luckily, Perseus came on the scene just in the nick of time and killed the sea monster and saved the princess. this would explain why he tried to save the potters, his "problems" with serious and the ending of PoA, why he is trying to save harry and why he is "no friend" of James--> he set his sister into danger! it also fits to the theory of severus being a vampire: he not a vampire at all but a half-vampire ba having a father who was a vampire (maybe called Aris? [greek god of war]. so pleas let me know what you think of this .... finchen From koticzka at wp.pl Fri May 16 18:39:46 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:39:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stone Defenses References: <001a01c319ed$f5d311e0$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: <004001c31bdb$f0123a20$dfe81d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58023 From: m.steinberger Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stone Defenses Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:53 AM >>The odd thing about the Ph. Stone's defenses is not that they were too easy, but that solutions were deliberately provided. I'm referring to the brooms in the key room. Why leave brooms there? And the riddle in the potions room. Why leave any clues at all? Any normal person setting up the potions defense would have left the clue to the potions locked in a safe elsewhere in the castle. And if you imagine that Quirrel nabbed the potions riddle and then left it with the potions, that doesn't explain why there were three (or more) brooms in the key room. Had Quirrel brought a broom in and left it, there would be only one.<< *** Koticzka's comment: What is easy and obvious for kids, not necessarily is easy for adults. We have been given the clue and led to the solutions during the book (plot), that's first. Second: try to do the same thing as kids do when playing - bend, jump, run - without preparation! Good luck and let me know if you can. It becomes more and more difficult every day... Third: Snape (my favourite, poor dear) used logic - someone has complained that "the best he could do was solved by the first year student Hermione" - remember her words about knowledge of logic among wizards and witches? Not very common (some hints on Snape's attitudes?) Forth: The Trio is more that one - the effect of synergy comes to be more usuful here - connection of strategic thinking (Ron), knowledge and logical thinking (Hermiona) and bravery and strengh (Harry) (hint who's NOT going to die as needed at the very end?) Oh, and Steve answers, too - thank you, we share the points... (geez, am I reading May the 14th?!) I have not found Snape's riddle that simple, but perhaps it is the translation which made it more fuzzy at some points - what-did-the-author-want-to-say-problems The Admiring Skeptic: >>I'm sure this was discussed years ago, but I just wanted to add this factor to the current thread on how much credit the trio get for breaking the defenses. For first years, they did very well, but the defenses were clearly set up to be broken. BTW, in the context of the first book, not the whole series, the defenses are fine. The whole book is a sweet jaunt into magic-land, and it doesn't ask to make much logical sense. But looking back from the much more serious vantage of book 4, the stone issue becomes very peculiar. ***Koticzka's comment - of course naive... kids winning - they have to. First book of the possible (not sure yet) series addressed to children. Perhaps JKR writes for everybody, but looking for a book you find it most probably among literature for children (when sold off the promotion stand) ;) Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. From innermurk at catlover.com Fri May 16 22:25:25 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:25:25 -0000 Subject: OOP: book 5 summary from B&T catalog Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58024 We just got the newest shipment of Baker and Taylor catalogs in and OOP is featured on the cover. While it doesn't show anything we haven't already seen at the Leaky Cauldron (maybe a little bit more of the spine) the article and summary inside could be a bit different from what we've heard already. I wanted to post it here as I can't remember. Quoting the article: "Is there anyone in the universe who doesn't recognize the face on this month's cover? A multimedia blockbuster, Harry Potter has made his way into the hearts and homes of children of all ages. Now, the highly anticipated fifth novel, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix is available June 21st! In the richest installment yet of the seven-part series, Harry Potter confronts the unreliability of the very government of the magical world, and the impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts as he enters his fifth year of wizard school. Despite this (or perhaps because of it), Harry finds depth and strength in his friends, beyond what even he knew -- boundless loyalty and unbearable sacrifice." Now, this doesn't seem to be much different from what I've read before at first glance, but that last part gives me chills. And I have to ask, impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts??? Where's Dumbledore!!!??? Innermurk (driving everyone around me crazy by counting down the days) and impatiently awaiting that ever elusive seeming Saturday. From innermurk at catlover.com Fri May 16 22:29:37 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:29:37 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: <20030516160446.16736.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kirsten Gilson wrote: > --- Serena Moonsilver > wrote: > > Ok, was over at TLC looking at all the pictures they > > recently posted, > > and in particular the back cover of the special > > edition. > > > > For those who haven't seen it, it shows what looks > > like the wing of > > an owl flying by an old, boarded up house. > > > > And I have two thoughts on what that house might be: > > > > The Shrieking Shack or the Riddle house. > > If you look really closely at the spine about halfway down, there appears to be a boy climbing the outside of the building. (this might be visible only on the HUGE picture) Any speculations? Innermurk From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 16 22:34:26 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:34:26 -0000 Subject: ADMIIN: Quoting of Articles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58026 Greetings from Hexquarters! The List Administration Team would like to remind you that quotation in full of *any* news article is a breach of intellectual property laws. Instead, please send a URL link to HPFGU-Announcements or OT-Chatter (ideally with a brief summary or quotation and your comments) -- *not* the main HPforGrownups list. Discussion, unless canon-based, should take place on OTChatter. Please follow these guidelines. We will delete any post which in our view risks breaching the law or Yahoo's Terms of Use. It is copyright infringement to quote articles in full, and we *really* don't want to be sued. *smile* Thanks for understanding, The List Administration Team From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 16 23:24:14 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts In-Reply-To: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE974F@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: <20030516232414.81191.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58027 --- Tonya wrote: > WHAT IF: > > Winky is actually Barty Crouch JR'S house elf. > That could explain why she won't > tell any secrets and why > she is sooo upset about his absence. ALSO, > remember when she sees Jr in > Moody's office she runs to him and calls him > "Master". Lynn: I think that a house-elf belongs to a family, continuing from generation to generation. After all, Winky tells us that her grandmother and her mother worked for the Crouch's as well. Dobby tells us that part of the house-elfs enslavement is to keep their masters' secrets which is the reason she won't talk and, if she's been in the house since Crouch, Jr. was born, it's understandable that she would have strong feelings, especially considering that after Azkaban, he has been solely in her care. It's not surprising that she refuses to give up what she would consider her duties as a house-elf after she's been with the family for so long and since she feels she is disgraced. Remember, even after over a year of being free from the Malfoys, Dobby tries to punish himself when he says anything negative about them, and there were horrible to Dobby. As to calling Crouch, Jr. 'Master', that's not a term to denote that the person is someone's master in this case but rather it is how the son of the head of the house would be addressed. Crouch, Sr. would be referred to as 'Mister' and any of his sons would be referred to as 'Master' followed by their first name if the person was somone within the family circle, such as a servant, hence Master Barty. A good example of this is in CoS when Lucius and Draco Malfoy go into Florish and Blotts. "'Mr. Malfoy, what a pleasure to see you again,' said Mr. Borgin in a voice as oily as his hair. 'Delighted - and young Master Malfoy, too - charmed.'" (CoS, p. 43, UK) Here, Lucius is referred to as Mister while Draco is referred to as Master though by someone who is not within the family circle and so addressed by the last name. --- Ersatz Harry wrote: > One last thought -- why would Winky (I think it > was Winky) say that > Bagman was a bad wizard yet fail to recognize > Evil!Barty right under > her own nose? Was this simply misplaced > loyalty? Lynn: I think Winky is like Petunia in this regard, failing to see just what's under their nose. "They also skated over the accusations of bullying in the report - 'He's a boisterous little boy, but he wouldn't hurt a fly!' said Aunt Petunia tearfully." (GoF, p. 29, UK) They both refuse to see any negatives in someone they love. What I've been wondering is whether Winky will end up blaming Harry for the deaths of both Crouch, Sr. and Jr. Something along the lines of, if your wand hadn't been sticking out of your pocket, Master Barty wouldn't have gotten it and etc., etc., etc. It's not very logical to think Harry is in any way responsible but it doesn't appear that very much logic is used at times in the WW. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Fri May 16 23:46:50 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Royal!Harry with an acronym In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516234650.77535.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58028 --- Ersatz Harry wrote: > So I offer up HIS > SWORD (Harry Is Some > Secret Wizard Of "Royal" Descent). Lynn: What came to my mind while reading this was the time period the school was founded. During that time there were kings and queens and there is nothing to suggest that the WW has been set up over time any differently than the Muggle world but rather reflects the age. This mirroring would explain Sir Nicholas and the Bloody Baron. There is the suggestion that the four founders came from the four countries of the British Isles, namely Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England. Perhaps the reason the founders are referred to as some of the greatest of the age is because they were the kings and queens of their respective lands. If this is the case, this theory would have merit. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 16 23:51:01 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 18:51:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes - Snape - ultimate Slyth, Lily, pure bloods and more References: <001201c3189d$86eeb9b0$4accaf42@your74fv6srp82> <004401c31bdc$36d8f890$dfe81d3e@ola> Message-ID: <006b01c31c06$0e1c8f00$55ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58029 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kelly Grosskreutz > > >>On the contrary, I see Snape as the ultimate Slytherin. << > > ***Koticzka's comment: I liked your explanation very much! Well, if not by some > characteristic features they would organize a lottery or divide students by > names. The point I do not agree with is that I do not see Snape as the ultimate > Slytherin. Accent on "ultimate". He is certainly Slyth and I do not suppose > that the Sorting hat had any trouble with him! Or rather: being the ultimate > Slytherin does not say whether one is good ar bad. His way of acting would not > indicate it for me. > I still consider breaking rules as not noble and moral (ethical) - regardless of who is doing it! Kelly's follow-up: I called him the ultimate Slytherin because I feel he embodies all of the characteristics that Salazar Slytherin looked for in his selected students, with the exception of Parseltongue. If you throw in that last ability, perhaps one could call Tom Riddle the ultimate Slytherin, but to be quite honest, I don't have the time to think about this in connection to Tom right now. I never meant to indicate that calling Snape the "ultimate" Slyth implied that he was either good or bad. It doesn't, just like saying a Gryffindor is courageous would imply that person is good or bad. I am just saying that, for better or for worse, he has all the traits of a Slytherin, and that these traits are exactly what allowed him to survive Voldemort. I also did not bring up rule-breaking as an argument for Snape being good or bad, simply that it was something that he did from time to time, which fit in with one of the traits for that house. In short, this is not an argument for good or evil Snape or Slyths, just saying this is what we are told makes up a Slyth, and Snape has all of these. Hope this clears up a few things. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat May 17 00:29:18 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:29:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? References: <20030516160446.16736.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012d01c31c0b$5b440bf0$e29dcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 58030 --- Serena Moonsilver wrote: > > And I have two thoughts on what that house might be: > > The Shrieking Shack or the Riddle house. > And Kirsten wrote: > It looks to me like it would be the Riddle house more > than the Shrieking Shack. I always pictured the > Shrieking Shack to be small, but of course I could be > wrong. My first impression was that it was the > Shrieking Shack until I saw the size of it. That is nothing like I ever imagined the Riddle house. Or the Shrieking shack. Way too big for the Shrieking shack (it's a shack, after all!) and it doesn't remotely resemble a muggle house. What's the thing on the ledge? Is that a statue, like a gargoyle sort of thing, or something alive? I'm thinking it looks more like St. Mungos than any other place introduced so far. For one thing, it's big. Second, it just *looks* like it's part of the WW. Third, what about the windows? A mental patient could have broken one. One is boarded up, perhaps a patient who kept trying to escape out it? Look at the top, under the attic windows. There are what looks like letters. The first one looks like an S. Maybe a W, M, or N. (You have to zoom in pretty close to see.) And that wing . . . it's awfully big, or awfully close to the foreground. It could be something altogether different than an owl or phoenix, a hippogriff or other winged creature? 36 days. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat May 17 00:52:31 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filk: Couldn?t It Be Hufflepuff? Message-ID: <20030517005231.55965.qmail@web20301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58031 Moe: Aaaaaaah! Leopold and Loeb are headed this way! Joe: No, silly, it's Lerner and Loewe. You know, the guys who wrote My Fair Lady? Moe: I said Leopold and Loeb, and I meant what I said! It's the dreaded duo! The Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow, the Wild Bill Hickock and Calamity Jane, the Frank and Jesse James, the Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid of filkdom! Bolt your doors and bar your windows . . . it's . . . it's . . . Amy Z. and Haggridd! "Couldnt It Be Hufflepuff?," a filk of Wouldnt It Be Loverly, which is indeed from My Fair Lady by Lerner and Loewe. Dedicated to the hardworking, fair, patient, cheerful Kelley, who proves that Hufflepuffian characteristics are worthy of our greatest respect The HUFFLEPUFFS uncharacteristically take the stage to dream big, by Hufflepuff standards . . . ERNIE MACMILLAN: The Hogwarts term is done, weve shown them all that were hot stuff, mm . . . CEDRIC DIGGORY: Well win the Quidditch Cup, this is a promise, not a bluff, mm . . . JUSTIN FINCH-FLETCHLEY: The other Houses know that we are surely good enough . . . ERNIE, CEDRIC, and JUSTIN (in rich harmony): Mm, mm, couldnt it be Hufflepuff? (Returning to reality, the HUFFLEPUFFS sing in unison): We're too modest to stake a claim But we'd love just an ounce of fame The year-end banners' name Oh, couldn't it be Hufflepuff? PROFESSOR SPROUT: All these years weve been second-best RAVENCLAWS, GRYFFINDORS, and SLYTHERINS chime in helpfully: You mean fourth HUFFLEPUFFS, grimacing: and were so depressed. Worst grades, worst team, worst dressed Why is it always Hufflepuff? Were so Hufflepuff, we just work and smile and get raw deals And to be quite blunt, were sick of being the school schlemiels CEDRIC: All we want is to win one Task One bright light in which we can bask Is that so much to ask? Oh, couldnt it be Hufflepuff? HANNAH ABBOTT, KEVIN WHITBY and SUSAN BONES (sighingly): Hufflepuff . . . LAURA MADLEY, ELEANOR BRANSTONE and OWEN CAULDWELL (diffidently) Hufflepuff . . . ERNIE, JUSTIN, and PROFESSOR SPROUT (wistfully): Hufflepuff . . . CURLY-HAIRED GIRL WHO ASKS HARRY TO THE BALL AND ISNT EVEN GIVEN THE DIGNITY OF A NAME (dreamily): Hufflepuff! Amy Z. and Haggridd __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 17 01:32:17 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:32:17 -0000 Subject: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > > --- Greicy wrote: > > Lynn wrote : > > Malfoy will be Captain for Slytherin House - even > > if Daddy has to buy the whole team Firebolts, > > which wouldn't surprise me. > Greicy replied: > That's right! How could I forget about Malfoy? If he's going to > become captain, I think it'd be great if Harry became captain. I > don't know why though, but I think it'd be a good idea. I guess > because they're adversaries and it'll make their hate for one > another even deeper. =) Valky chimes in: Yeah, naturally if Malfoy becomes Slyth Capt. it would follow that Harry would captain Gryff. I can see Lucius buying the spot for Draco. It fits in terms of a lot of plotlines. In particular, that the rivalry between Draco and Harry seems mostly to be played out in Hogwarts competition games. Duels, Quidditch and House points being the three that come to mind. With a side of popularity initiated by Draco. Adding popularity to games you get the most prestigious position in the game of choice, hence Quidditch captaincy, for both boys, if not in fifth year definately before too long. I would like to also say that we know the captain of Hufflepuff, Cedric, cannot continue to play Quidditch. I know we haven't got much cannon on this team but any wild guesses who will replace their Diggory in book five? Perhaps, "Susan Bones". //chuckles// Why *was* she the name picked for the film? Does that have any future significance? Valky Awaiting the day when young Miss Bones becomes something more than Sorted into Hufflepuff. > > From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 17 01:47:29 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:47:29 -0000 Subject: Time Travel Paradoces and Adopted!harry... In-Reply-To: <003f01c31bdb$ee5a29e0$dfe81d3e@ola> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Koticzka" wrote: > Was Buckbeak killed at first in PoA? I had an impression he was actually decapitated. And afterwards the deer appears. > > Note: If time traveling works consequently - Hippogriff should be dead and there should be no deer at the first version of events. > OR Hippogriff should be spared nad deer should appear. > Another mistake? - I suppose so. But I have to check it up Valky (me); Ok, Koticzka. You really lost me after that. I am fascinated by your argument that the time line that happens first is one unaffected by the successive loop. But I just cannot quite grasp all the points that you have made. Please reiterate for the dummies like me. :P From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat May 17 01:56:54 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:56:54 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alexcukier" wrote: > Darrin wrote: >> pg 134 UK (Grim Defeat) >> - Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead--" >> Later on the page. "-Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have >>mercy..." >> Obviously we don't know for sure that this is what really happened, >> but I tend to believe this is Harry's subconscious memories, and >>they >> are fairly accurate. >> And in the first film, the James and Lily death scene, which >>Lexicon >> (I believe) considers canon because JKR wrote it, Lily wasn't >> attacking." > > Now Alex: > > I believe that we are in the right track about the real motives > Voldemort had to kill Harry. If you read carefully the quote above we > can see that: > 1) Lilly knew that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry (possibly the > motive, too). > 2) She believed(or hoped) that she could be killed instead of Harry > (what turns stronger that she would know the motive). > 3) Voldemort were ther to kill at least Harry and SHE REALLY COULD > NOT BE KILLED, or her words would be in vain (because she would be > killed anyways...) > > That brings the old discussion about Mrs Trellawney first correct > prediction or some black magic in order to give voldemort esternal > Life. > Annemehr: Alex, you have piqued my interest with your #2 point above. However, I am going to hop right off the line of thinking about Trelawney's first prediction, because it's in danger of turning into a cliche. So, you point out that it seems Lily believed she could be killed *instead* of Harry, eh? I have an idea... What if Lily had done something *big* in the fight against Voldemort? What if she'd personally *earned* Voldemort's fury? Perhaps Lily had come up with a very effective charm or something that is now giving the DE's trouble or had foiled a plot close to LV's heart? And since then LV has been (patiently, for over a year) out for revenge. And the revenge is to be the death of her child. So, her last words are, "take me instead," and, "have mercy." Annemehr "I am /not/ going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 17 02:46:34 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:46:34 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58035 Annemehr: > > What if Lily had done something *big* in the fight against Voldemort? > What if she'd personally *earned* Voldemort's fury? Perhaps Lily had > come up with a very effective charm or something that is now giving > the DE's trouble or had foiled a plot close to LV's heart? And since > then LV has been (patiently, for over a year) out for revenge. > > And the revenge is to be the death of her child. > > So, her last words are, "take me instead," and, "have mercy." > This is an intriguing idea and I suppose LV could have wanted to avoid killing her so she could live with the knowledge that her husband and son were dead. I'd also like to reintroduce James and Lily's wealth. We have no idea how it compares to say, the Malfoys, but if it is anywhere close, perhaps the Potters were, essentially, the treasurers, the bankrollers, for the fight against V-Mort. But we've also gotten away, to my way of thinking, from the point I've been trying to make. And I don't think I've gotten an answer. If V-Mort wanted to spare Lily, it seems he made a poor effort. Two verbal warnings against an apparently wandless witch who, though talented, is probably no match in a head-to-head for V-Mort really doesn't indicate to me any kind of effort to spare her life. Had he wanted her to live, I think he could have made it happen. To me, the line to Harry about her "needn't have died" is likely just a taunt. Darrin From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat May 17 03:06:26 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:06:26 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Annemehr: > > > > > What if Lily had done something *big* in the fight against > Voldemort? [...] And > since > > then LV has been (patiently, for over a year) out for revenge. > > > > And the revenge is to be the death of her child. > > [Darrin:] > But we've also gotten away, to my way of thinking, from the point > I've been trying to make. And I don't think I've gotten an answer. > > If V-Mort wanted to spare Lily, it seems he made a poor effort. Two > verbal warnings against an apparently wandless witch who, though > talented, is probably no match in a head-to-head for V-Mort really > doesn't indicate to me any kind of effort to spare her life. > > Had he wanted her to live, I think he could have made it happen. To > me, the line to Harry about her "needn't have died" is likely just a > taunt. > > Darrin Annemehr: Well, if LV was killing Harry to get revenge on Lily, the scene could make sense I think. First of all, Lily knows her son is going to die (so LV thinks). He would like it just fine if she watched it happen, but he knows that she knows that Harry will be dead whether she stands aside or not. Either way, the revenge still happens. I think having her *stand aside* (i.e. expose Harry to death) rather than merely restraining her is part of the torture, if he could get her to do it. If not, he just blasts both of them. The weak point in this theory is that you might think he *would* rather tie her up and make her watch rather than kill her first. Maybe he just wanted to sweep them aside and get on to other things, though -- like Cedric. They weren't going to mess up his plans any more after that. Come to think of it, Lucius Malfoy called the Potters "meddling," so they must have done *something* to call down LV's wrath... Annemehr No band names, but "Stand Aside" would be a good name for a *song*. From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 17 03:29:39 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 03:29:39 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58037 Annemehr deals with my concern about V-Mort's dealing with Lily the night of the attack: > > Well, if LV was killing Harry to get revenge on Lily, the scene could make sense I think. > Actually, it does. It also indicates to me that she was going to die regardless. Ideally, LV might have wanted to kill Harry and then kill Lily, so Lily would know the pain of her son dying before he killed her. I wasn't so much questioning your theory as I was the theories about Lily being related, or V-Mort having a life debt, or V-Mort wanting Lily as a pet...etc. The "V-Mort sparing Lily" routine only works for me if it was for a reason not all that important to V-Mort, and easily cast aside. I just haven't been convinced that V-Mort made a real effort to spare her. > No band names, but "Stand Aside" would be a good name for a *song*. Yes, it would. FILK - chorus to Bryan Adams' "Heaven" Lily, you silly little girl Just get out of the way I'm willing to spare your life If you'll stand aside... Darrin -- Mundy Fletch and the Filks. A really good band name. From editor at texas.net Sat May 17 04:55:44 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:55:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts References: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE974F@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: <002101c31c30$a4eb5540$6e04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58038 There's a bit of an OoP spoiler down in here, just FYI. It's marked so you can stop before you read it if you want. Tonya said: > Winky is actually Barty Crouch JR'S house elf. Meaning that Barty > Crouch Sr could not REALLY have "fired" her from service. Maybe he just > told her to get out of his house since Jr wasn't there any longer. > SOOOO because of this Winky cannot find Jr so she goes along with Dobby > to Hogwarts. That could explain why she won't tell any secrets and why > she is sooo upset about his absence. ALSO, remember when she sees Jr in > Moody's office she runs to him and calls him "Master". Most house-elf discussions on the list in the past have seemed to take the view that Dobby is an extreme example of an atypical elf; in binary fashion, it seemed that Winky and her reactions are viewed as more the norm. I think this is completely incorrect, and the human tendency to want to find a "right" example when we are presented with a "wrong" has misled us. I have said this before, but not recently: I believe that Winky is every bit as atypical as Dobby, possibly more so. I think there are three elements to a house-elf's enslavement--the elf, the family, and the location. Location must be just as key as the others, for house-elves are found in old manor houses and castles, not places like the Burrow, even though it seems to me that any elf would love having such a large, caring family to care for. To obtain a house-elf, I think you must obtain a location that one comes with; thus, you become its family. I think it is the owners of the location to which a house-elf is bound, who are the elf's family. It may be that only certain locations will do. It *is* the House-Elf Relocation Office, not the Re-Assigning office. If I am correct, when a family frees an elf, what they are doing is banishing it from its location, and another one must be found. Dobby has changed his master with his location (although, as we have seen, old habits die hard), and is loyal to Dumbledore--the "family" that came with his new location. His atypicality is that he wants paying. Winky, on the other hand, is atypical in her unnatural attachment to the *family* of her location. She has been freed by the family and banished from her location, but she has neither bonded with her new location nor accepted her new family. She is in total denial, unlike Dobby, who has embraced most of the standard role and attitudes of the house-elves (he just has money and a day off). Winky's attachment to "her" people, outside the limits of the spell and preventing her relocation or reattachment at *all,* I believe, is just as odd for house-elf psychology as Dobby's wanting payment. I think it probably is because she had a much closer relationship with Barty Jr., during his imprisonment, than house-elves usually do. SPOILER>>> BE YE WARNED So I have no doubts whatsoever that she is the vengeful house-elf. Dumbledore and Harry have caused the deaths of both Crouch men (or I believe she will see it so), and given the way house-elves can move around within and through the Hogwarts defenses, I think this could be a real problem. I think only another elf will be able to protect against bad elf magic, and Dobby may have a lot to do. ~Amanda From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 17 05:11:03 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:11:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fanfic as a more displined form of speculation (was: Adop... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58039 In a message dated 5/16/2003 11:55:37 AM Central Standard Time, psychic_serpent at yahoo.com writes: > I wish folks would stop suggesting that it's possible > to travel back through years and years with a device that only lets > you go back one hour for every turn! Haven't we had enough people > posting about how long you'd have to turn the thing to go back a > significant amount of time? > 148,920 times if I calculated it correctly. You'd be doing it for hours. . perhaps days. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 17 05:17:54 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:17:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fanfic as a more displined form of speculation (was: Adop... Message-ID: <142.119b88c3.2bf72002@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58040 In a message dated 5/17/2003 12:12:15 AM Central Standard Time, Meliss9900 at aol.com writes: > >I wish folks would stop suggesting that it's possible > >to travel back through years and years with a device that only lets > >you go back one hour for every turn! Haven't we had enough people > >posting about how long you'd have to turn the thing to go back a > >significant amount of time? > > > > 148,920 times if I calculated it correctly. You'd be doing it for hours. . > > perhaps days. > Sorry for the one liner. My dog decided to check out the keyboard and somehow managed to send the post through before I finished. That was a fabulous post Barb. I hadn't really ever stopped to think how complicated planning a back to the future eerrr past. .fic can be. Especially if one is attempting to be faithful to things established in canon and not just creating their own version of 'canon' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 17 05:21:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 05:21:55 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: <20030516211535.81155.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > Steve wrote: > > > What are the odds that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is not the true > > > Heir of Slytherin but the self-proclaimed Heir of Slytherin. > > ME: No question he is the Heir of Slytherin. Dumbledore himself said > he was in CoS. ...edited... > > Huggs Becky > bboy_mn: Could you narrow down that CoS reference a bit. I'm not doubting you, just drawing a blank on what part of the book it might be in. bboy_mn From Lynx412 at aol.com Sat May 17 05:48:48 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:48:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 Message-ID: <39.38a5f9a7.2bf72740@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58042 In a message dated 5/16/03 5:29:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > That's right! How could I forget about Malfoy? If he's going to become > captain, I think it'd be great if Harry became captain. I don't know why > though, but I think it'd be a good idea. I guess because they're > adversaries and it'll make their hate for one another even deeper. =) Perhaps, but I'd like to see Ron on the team as Captain. I think that would bug Malfoy even more...he'd see it as Potter doesn't even care enough to challenge him. Also, given the potential problems that Rita Skeeter's articles have introduced, Harry may not be the best choice politically... Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 17 06:16:13 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 02:16:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58043 In a message dated 5/17/2003 1:11:14 AM Central Standard Time, Lynx412 at aol.com writes: > >That's right! How could I forget about Malfoy? If he's going to become > >captain, I think it'd be great if Harry became captain. I don't know why > >though, but I think it'd be a good idea. I guess because they're > >adversaries and it'll make their hate for one another even deeper. =) > > Perhaps, but I'd like to see Ron on the team as Captain. I think that > would bug Malfoy even more...he'd see it as Potter doesn't even care enough > > to challenge him. > > Also, given the potential problems that Rita Skeeter's articles have > introduced, Harry may not be the best choice politically... > Umm I'm not sure if this needs to go under the OotP heading or not scroll down please. .I'm sure a moderator will tell me if it does . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I think that the team gets to select their Capt and I don't think they'd give a hoot about politics Umm I'm not sure if this needs to go under the OotP heading or not Maybe but I think that JKR will keep the power base even. lf Draco's captain I think that Harry will be. If Draco's a prefect, I think that Harry will be. (actually I think that Harry will be even IF Draco's not.) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat May 17 07:30:01 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 07:30:01 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58044 Grey Wolf wrote: He didn't take the basilisk with him for purely logistic problems: taking a 20 metre long snake that must weight over a ton, can kill with a stare, is very poisonous and is extrictly regulated since ancient times (maybe) across Europe isn't going to be an easy job. Tom adds: Agreed that transporting the basilisk wouldn't be an easy task, no matter what the case. That said, I'm wondering what the true length of the creature is - not having the books with me, I can't be sure, but didn't the American version say that the basilisk's *skin* was 20 feet long? If the skin is 20 *feet* long, is it possible that the basilisk itself was 20 metres long? Does anyone know about the proportions between snake-skins and actual snake sizes? -Tom From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat May 17 07:56:16 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 07:56:16 -0000 Subject: Evil! Molly (was E!Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58045 Eric wrote, in response to Catherine's post #: I'm seeing a future scene, where Ron, Hermione and Harry have been captured by the DEs, and are tied up in the middle of the circle, surrounded by masked and robed DEs. Voldemort's ranting and raving, in classic Evil Overlord fashion, about all the Evil Stuff he's going to do to them "---and after I make you, Hermione, read fifty or sixty _Sweet Valley High_ books...* Hermione faints in horror* I'll start on you, Ron Weasley!" Right about then, a robed DE behind V'mort pulls out a wand and either AKs him or gives him a good solid "Reducto!" right in the back. Standing over the smoking, twitching, bleeding corpse, the DE pulls off her mask. Ron's eyes go wide as saucers. "MOM!" "Hello, dear," says Molly. "Don't look quite so gob-smacked; you lways did look like a guppy-fish at feeding-time when anything unexpected happened. Why are you so surprised? I needed _something_ to do on my own, when you and your brothers and sister were out of the house." She turns to the DEs. "Well? What are you waiting for? 'Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!'" As the DEs bow, she turns the Trio loose. "Now, run along to school, dear---and for pity's sake, at least _try_ to do some studying! END QUOTE. Tom replies: Nice comedic sense there, Eric, and that would indeed be funny. Funny, yes, but IMHO unlikely, and almost impossible. This is not to focus on your response, per se, but the entire line of speculation about Molly's possible evil-ness in general. See, this position opposes my principal argument to FIE (which, in this case is related,) and that is: She's there at the Triwizard Tournament. She, along with her son Bill; and Fudge, and also Ludo Bagman. Granted, we don't see Molly (or the other three) immediately after Harry's return to Hogwarts via Portkey - but we do see Molly there at the pre-tournament meal, and afterwards in the hospital. To read between the lines, she wouldn't be able to get to the graveyard if she was on the Hogwarts grounds, because she couldn't apparate from Hogwarts - so, if she were a Death Eater (at present) then she'd have to sneak away from both her seat at the tournament, AND Bill, unless he was a Death Eater too and left with her. This is because as far as we know, the Death Eaters *apparated* to the graveyard. And so, she couldn't really apparate. And neither could Fudge or Bagman, being judges (and accounted for) at the tournament. So, Molly could potentially *in the future* become evil. She might even become a Death Eater - (in the future.)* But is she a Death Eater now? No way. -Tom From ajlboston at yahoo.com Sat May 17 01:04:54 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:04:54 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58046 Oops! Sorry, you beat me to the post! But I have more... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bowlwoman" wrote:> Based on the description we have in GoF, I'm inclined to believe it > IS the Riddle house: > > GoF (US hardback, pg 1) > > >>> It stood on a hill overlooking the village, some of its windows > boarded, tiles missing from its roof, and ivy spreading unchecked > over its face. ONce a fine-looking manor, and easily the largest and > grandest building for miles around, the Riddle House was now damp, > derelict, and unoccupied. <<< > > To me, that description in GoF fits this illustration to a "T". We > see ivy growing on the face of the house, broken/boarded up windows > and a very tall, stately and once grand building that looks > distinctly abandoned. The architectural style also makes me think it's the Riddle house. Mansard roofs, and the other features shown, are almost exclusively used to depict Haunted Houses on Halloween cards. Many sprawling houses of that era were built for large families, and then fell into disrepair; who has not been intrigued by some personally (at least in certain parts of the world)? In fact, I went to school in a building like that and everyone who saw pictures bought into the Haunted House image too. A.J. From salsal19 at yahoo.com Sat May 17 06:08:57 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030517060857.39357.qmail@web80508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58047 > grace701 wrote: > I was just at www.cosforums.com and they have a thread up about > this. I totally forgot that Roger Davies and Marcus Flint have > already graduated. So not only does Gryffindor have a selection to > make, but all of the other Houses as well. It's a shame we only > know of a few people in each team, now we won't be able to predict > who will be their captain. > > > Greicy I can't tell you who I speculate with Davies team but as I recall Flint and Wood were respectfully Slytherin and Gryffindor's captains....ok we know that Harry,Fred,George,Angelina,and another one I don't remember is on Gryffindor, we also know that Draco Malfoy is a Slytherin. Here is what I think, Fred and George are too irresponsible so they will not be Captain so it will be between Angelina,Harry,and the other. I believe Angelina will get it over the others although a twist would be that Harry and Draco both respectfully got it. With the hate they already hold towards each other, I would not doubt if that were the case either. I don't have enough information about Davies team to speculate but that is my opinion on the others. -Sally (the "accidental Harry Potter fan"...ask me about it some other time ;)) "Don't quit when the tide is lowest,for it's just about to turn;Don't quit over doubts and questions, for there's something you may learn. Don't quit when the night is darkest, for it's just a while 'til dawn; don't quit when you've run the farthest,for the race is almost won. Don't quit when the hill is steepest, for your goal is almost nigh;Don't quit,for you're not a failure until you fail to try"-Jill Wolf From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 17 10:46:57 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 10:46:57 -0000 Subject: Fanfic as a more displined form of speculation (was: Adopted!Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "m.steinberger" > wrote: Barb wrote: > > I don't think most people have a problem with Time-Turning in > general; although some people have voiced a dissatisfaction with > JKR's having used this to solve the saving-Sirius-and-Buckbeak > problem in PoA, I know of many, many people who cite PoA as their > favorite book in the canon thus far. I reckon that your view may > hinge on how much you consider this to be 'cheating,' or perhaps how > much exposure you've had to time-travel stories in science fiction > and fantasy (too much, I suspect, might make you more jaded about it > rather than more accepting). > > Many folks are also divided about fanfiction. Some people think > it 'contaminates' one's perception of the canon, while others find > it to be a more disciplined form of speculation about the canon, > even more so than posting on a list like this, as it forces the > fanfiction author to really think about the implications of the > theories that he/she is proposing and to work out as many of the > details as possible (assuming that's what the person is doing with > the fanfiction--some is more wishful thinking or 'what-if,' rather > than speculation about what has happened or will happen). > > Unfortunately, if the theory at the top of this post were put into > the form of speculative fanfiction, it would be full of plot holes > and inconsistencies, both internal inconsistences and canon > inconsistencies. Me (Valky): Hi Barb, What you are saying is true. I must however make a little argument in defense of my own contributions, and I hope others, to the threads that you are referring to. Fanfic is curious to me, as my mother was a noted fanfic writer in the sci-fi genre for many years. Curious, yes, but lacking any real personal appeal. For me, reading the HP series takes me back to my childhood days of The Fabulous Five, by Enid Blyton. When the Child sleuth genre was at a height of popularity. IMHO I think we all need to ascertain that, due to the mass appeal of JK Rowlings cross-genre style, there will be some comprimise on the fandom with which we collaborate. Frankly I say that the Wizard Series fits many criteria of the Mystery/Sleuth genre. THese books are consistently presenting a challenge to the amateur sleuth, and personally its the most intense joy I get from reading them. As such, I must request a reprieve from further like judgement by my fellow fans. My amateur sleuthing, albeit "undisciplined" and "full of plotholes", is just that. It may well be improved by translation into fan fiction, or completely disproved. I may also be totally inept at the activity. :P Yeah I guess I am, because my professional name does not start with Detective Inspector. I intend no offence to those who puport Fan fiction to be more disciplined an art, I must say. :D THere is great merit to such a statement, and despite my blood relationship to a great fanfic writer no apt talent in me. cheerfully Valky =^O^=::::::"THe only one against whom i intend to work" said Dumbledore "is Lord Voldemort. If you are against him, then we remain, Cornelius, on the same side.::::::::::=^O^= From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 17 13:12:29 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 08:12:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 References: <20030517060857.39357.qmail@web80508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000601c31c75$f90399e0$25ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58049 > > I can't tell you who I speculate with Davies team but as I recall > Flint and Wood were respectfully Slytherin and Gryffindor's > captains....ok we know that Harry,Fred,George,Angelina,and > another one I don't remember is on Gryffindor, we also know that > Draco Malfoy is a Slytherin. Here is what I think, Fred and George > are too irresponsible so they will not be Captain so it will be > between Angelina,Harry,and the other. I believe Angelina will get it > over the others although a twist would be that Harry and Draco both > respectfully got it. With the hate they already hold towards each > other, I would not doubt if that were the case either. I don't have enough information about Davies team to speculate but that is my opinion on the > others. > -Sally (the "accidental Harry Potter fan"...ask me about it some > other time ;)) I don't know if this will play out, but I'd like to see Ron be the Gryffindor Captain. He is far better at strategy in general than Harry (the chess game), it has been done before (Cedric), and there would still be a rivalry with Draco. Looking back to the previous generation, Snape did hate James Potter, but he also had his own special hatred for Sirius Black. I think, if we substitute Draco for Snape, Harry for James, and Ron for Sirius, we have the same thing shaping up here. Draco and Ron can't stand each other, true, but so far Draco mainly hates Ron for being a Weasley and Harry's friend. This would deepen the hatred between Ron and Draco, making it resemble more the hatred Snape and Sirius had for each other. Not that I'm into hatred, but I think the parallel would work. That, and I just want to see Ron as Captain. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Sat May 17 14:52:17 2003 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:52:17 -0000 Subject: FILK ; The Gryffs and the Slytherins Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58050 Hello all! Long time, no filk! Well, actually I have been filking, but all my Filk energy has been going into songs for the Adult RPG game "Lightning Wars" ofer at Livejournal. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml? user=lightningwar Most of the filks can be found on the lightning wars OOC board; http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lw_ooc If any of you are interested in the 1942 era potterverse, come on by and have a look! (Slash warning, though you won't see anything rated NC-17 on the public boards.) Anyway, this little parody had little or nothing to do with LW, other than being inspired by the scenario of the entire school being turned loose in Hogsmeade to celebrate Bonfire Night. The Gryffs and the Slytherins A Parody by Ellen Anglin Based on "The Pekes and the Pollicles" from the Broadway musical "Cats" by Andrew Lloyd Weber Of the awful battle of the Gryffs and the Slytherins Together with some account Of the participation of the Huffs and the 'Claws And the intervention of the Great Dumbledore The Gryffs and the Slytherins everyone knows Are proud and implacable passionate foes It is always the same wherever one goes And the Huffs and the 'Claws although most of them say That they do not like fighting yet once in a way They whip out their wands and join in the fray And they... Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! SPARK! SPARK! Just watch Hexes flying all over the park! Now on the occasion of which I shall speak The tension was building for nearly a week And on Bonfire night that when things hit the fan The prefects were missing, all gone to a man I don't know the reason, but most people think They'd slipped off to the Three Broomsticks for a drink And nobody knows who was in Hogsmeade square When the Gryff and the Slytherin forces met there They did not advance , they refused to retreat But they glared at each other and shuffled their feet And started to... Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! SPARK! SPARK! Just watch Hexes flying all over the park! And they... Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! SPARK! SPARK! Just watch Hexes flying all over the park! Now the Slytherin snakes with a look cold as ice Faced the Lions and tried to turn cats into mice And so all the Huffs, when they heard the uproar Came rushing right out of the Honeydukes store Soon gathered a dozen, or maybe a score The backed up the lions and started to glare The tension was thick like dark smoke in the air The 'Claws smelling trouble turned up in a wink Ravens are war birds and like a good stink! Wizards and Witches of every sort Turned up to sort out the mess Gathering round to join in the sport But to starting it no one will 'fess It began with a simple retort; "Give way? Arse off! We'll not knuckle under." Let my meaning be perfectly plain We're the best house at Hogwarts by Thunder! And you'd best not give us sass again!" Now you know any beater can strike a right fair blow And any good seeker is fast on their feet The teams lined right up wands in hand in good order To defend yet again against House defeat. Then the Gryffs and the Slyths held no longer aloof But with back up snipers firing down from the roof Join to the din with a... Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! Spark! SPARK! SPARK! Just watch Hexes flying all over the park! Dirumpo! Conturbo! Inflatio! Dormio! Obfirmo! Prurigo! Percello! Succendo!* Hear them tossing hexes all over the Park When these bold heroes in battle assembled The townsfolk all ran and behind curtains trembled And some of the neighbors were so much afraid That they started to call up the Aurors Brigade When suddenly right in the midst of the roar Who should appear but our hero Albus Dumbledore His hands filled with power most fearfully blazing He banished the spells with an ease most amazing And when he looked about at each shocked student face Every ruffian had been set back in his place. With a few taken points and a word about rules The disheartened armies were sent back to school And when the Night Auror returned to his beat There wasn't a student left out in the street All thanks and buy drinks for the great Dumbledore! Slyths and Griffs, must when they meet Huffs and 'Claws in Hogsmeade streets When teachers are watching, simply retreat. *Spell Translations; Break in pieces!, Confusion!, Fart!, Sleep!, Lock up!, Itch!, Catch on fire! From emeleel at juno.com Sat May 17 15:05:10 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 10:05:10 -0500 Subject: The Potter's supposed wealth.... and Time Paradoxes Message-ID: <20030517.100510.-728529.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58051 First off, how much money did the Potter's have? It's been speculated here that perhaps one reason LV went after the Potters is because they were quite wealthy and were bankrolling the anti-LV efforts. Unless they've got some more money stashed away - or spent a *lot* of it on the LV war before they died, there's only a "small fortune" tucked away in Gringott's. I can't remember exactly where the thought is, but IIRC, even though Harry is at first amazed by the money left for him, he later realizes that he's going to have to be careful spending his money because he knows he's got to make it last for at least 7 years to get him through school. I suppose the "they spent most of it before they died" argument could be true, but I just don't get that sense from what's been discussed about James and Lily in the books. ******** Time paradoxes: "Koticzka" wrote: > Was Buckbeak killed at first in PoA? I had an impression he was actually decapitated. And afterwards the deer appears. > > Note: If time traveling works consequently - Hippogriff should be dead and there should be no deer at the first version of events. > OR Hippogriff should be spared nad deer should appear. > Another mistake? - I suppose so. But I have to check it up Okay, time travel loops are hard to grasp, but I'll see if I can clear it up. Let me see if I can go through the "first" time line and tie it in with the "second" time line and we'll see if it makes more sense. As a previous poster used, I'll use HH1 and HH2 to make distinctions between which sets of Harry/Hermoines I'm talking about: 1. HH1 and Ron are heading out under the Invisibility Cloak to go see Hagrid before the execution. "They skulked in an empty chamber off the entrance hall, listening, until they were sure it was deserted. They heard a last pair of people scurrying across the hall and a door slamming." (page 327, American) This "last pair of people" was HH2 running into the broom closet and slamming the door. So that had already happened, but HH1 did not know that it was HH2 who was running and slamming. 2. While HH1 and Ron are visiting Hagrid, HH2 are waiting in the edge of the forest, listening to everything. They don't make any noises or knock over anything that HH1 hear, so there are no clues (like the running feet and slamming door) to HH1 that anyone is outside. 3. Buckbeak's execution: HH1 and Ron don't get to hear all the formal talk and signing of the papers because they're running across the grounds, trying to get back to the castle under the Cloak. All they hear is: " The rat was squealing wildly, but not loudly enough to cover up the sounds drifting up from Hagrid's garden. There was a jumble of indistinct male voices, a silence, and then, without warning, the unmistakeable swish and thud of an axe." (page 331, American) To HH1 and Ron, they believe this to be the swish and thud of an axe executing Buckbeak. They are too far away to hear what is actually said, nor can they see. But, in actuality, it is the swish and thud of the executioner slamming the axe into the fence. So no, Buckbeak was *never executed* - but HH1 did not know it. Then - "Then, behind them, they heard a wild howling. 'Hagrid,' Harry muttered." (page 332, American) HH1 and Ron assume that it is Hagrid howling in grief, But remember, they're too far away to hear precisely. Really, it is Hagrid howling and crying in relief (all that pent-up nervous energy, ya know!) because Buckbeak had got away and he's happy. 4. Skippity-skip through all the re-hash of the Shrieking Shack and head for the Dementors and the Patronus: Okay, this is where it gets a tiny bit harder to understand because Harry actually sees himself and the "loop" seems a little weirder. Harry1 is lying on the ground, about to get "kissed" when the silvery light appears around him, he looks up and sees the Patronus stag (although at first, he doesn't know what kind of an animal it is) and he sees the stag go to the person on the bank, who pats it gently. Harry1 then passes out. What he doesn't know is that the person on the bank is Harry2. So the Patronus does appear in the first time line, but Harry1 doesn't know how it got there. In the repeated time line, Harry2 finally realizes that he was responsible for the Patronus, and since he *knows* it appeared fully strong the first time, this gives him the confidence to actually be the one to be responsible for casting it. Now, did I miss anything, or screw it up? Sometimes to "get" time travel, especially when it loops in on itself like in PoA, you have to just step back and let it just flow quietly through you instead of trying to buckle down and try to make real sense out of it. I think kids probably have an easier time with it, which may be one reason why JKR decided to use it. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat May 17 15:29:26 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:29:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Message-ID: <113.2378ee24.2bf7af56@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58052 My thoughts on this topic: 1. You can't read too much into what Lily said to Voldemort in the moments before her death. Her husband had just been killed, possibly before her eyes, and the killer was advancing on her infant son. Few people can think clearly in that situation. 2. Voldemort was about to kill Harry, but (at least by his own words years later) did not intend to kill Lily. To build a life-debt out of this pure speculation. Life-debts have to be pretty rare to have the power we've assumed they have, and others will usually know about them. Yet nothing is mentioned about it in canon. 3. "Take me instead" line: Most mothers will offer themselves in place of their child when the latter is in danger, but my take on this is that Lily was not offering her life, but rather her body. Lily was, by all accounts, a very attractive woman, and the offer by a mother to "go" with the villain, or "be" with the villain, or even marry the villain (in return for the child's life) is fairly common in fiction. But as in most cases, the offer is rejected. Certainly offering something most men would be interested in would be more likely to succeed than asking a Dark Lord to "have mercy". 4. Why would Voldemort have spared Lily? a. He wouldn't. He was going to kill Harry first (well, second after James) and make her watch. THEN he was going to kill her. He is, after all, evil. b. Lily was an heir of Slytherin (see separate (and as yet unwritten) post about heirs) and Voldemort couldn't bring himself to kill a "sister." c. Lily was an heir of Gryffindor (see separate (and as yet unwritten) post about heirs) and Voldemort knew he *couldn't* kill her without serious mystical consequences. d. Life debt. OK, it's *possible*, but Wormtail's canon life-debt to Harry didn't keep Peter Pettigrew from conspiring to murder Harry. Evil, again, you see? I think I have more to say on this, but I'm kinda out of steam, and I have a whole other post to write, so I'll let the rest of the list have at it. -- Ray Student at the wizarding school represented by Harry at the Tri-Wizarding Tournament. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hollydaze at btinternet.com Sat May 17 15:44:08 2003 From: hollydaze at btinternet.com (Hollydaze) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:44:08 +0100 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? References: Message-ID: <023c01c31c8b$285cad20$ad2c8351@j0dhe> No: HPFGUIDX 58053 I agree with all those who state that they think it is the Riddle House (due to the same reason stated by bowlwoman) or some place that we haven't seen yet, I don't think it's Godric's Hollow or St Mungo's though. But that's not why I'm writing. I'm intrigued by the fact that their appears to be an open door on the spine/front. If you look at the bottom left next to the tree, there is what looks like a stone arch and about 4 steps leading up. At the top of the steps there is something like a doorframe and light coming through a crack down the side (the type you see when a door is opened in the dark) the light from the crack and the doorway are illuminating the steps, the left side of the tree and the ground just in front of the boarded up window, as well as part of the stone archway round the door. HOLLYDAZE!!! "No one's going to try and kill you until we've sorted a few things out," said Lupin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Sat May 17 15:58:31 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:58:31 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: <023c01c31c8b$285cad20$ad2c8351@j0dhe> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58054 This picture also resembles somewhat the description of the Crouch manor in GoF, what with the broken window and all. Perhaps Voldemort, who ran his operation from Crouch's manor for a while in GoF, left some clues there. -Tom From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 17 16:01:31 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:01:31 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: <113.2378ee24.2bf7af56@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58055 Ray: > > 1. You can't read too much into what Lily said to Voldemort in the moments > before her death. Her husband had just been killed, possibly before her > eyes, and the killer was advancing on her infant son. Few people can think > clearly in that situation. > Agreed, but the points is that she was speaking, not brandishing her wand and not attacking. So, the idea that V-Mort didn't want to kill her and she forced his hand is, to me, not one that works. > 2. Voldemort was about to kill Harry, but (at least by his own words years > later) did not intend to kill Lily. To build a life-debt out of this pure > speculation. Life-debts have to be pretty rare to have the power we've > assumed they have, and others will usually know about them. Yet nothing is mentioned about it in canon. Yeah, the V-mort has a life debt to Lily idea is something I really don't see.We just really don't know how these things work. The only one we're sure exists is between Wormtail and Harry, and as you say later, that doesn't prevent Wormtail from conspiring to kill Harry. > 3. "Take me instead" line: Most mothers will offer themselves in place of > their child when the latter is in danger, but my take on this is that Lily > was not offering her life, but rather her body. Lily was, by all accounts, a > very attractive woman, and the offer by a mother to "go" with the villain, or > "be" with the villain, or even marry the villain (in return for the child's > life) is fairly common in fiction. But as in most cases, the offer is > rejected. Certainly offering something most men would be interested in would be more likely to succeed than asking a Dark Lord to "have mercy". Eh, OK. First, let me say, EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! Now, I suppose this works, but obviously, V-Mort didn't have any compunction about killing her, which still means the "V-Mort went in there with the idea to spare Lily" doesn't entirely work. > 4. Why would Voldemort have spared Lily? > a. He wouldn't. He was going to kill Harry first (well, second after > James) and make her watch. THEN he was going to kill her. He is, after all, > evil. This one's mine. I think he really was just being efficient. First, kill the main threat (V-Mort, being not only elitist, but probably sexist, would consider that James), then kill who you came to kill, and then tie up loose ends like Lily. > b. Lily was an heir of Slytherin (see separate (and as yet unwritten) post > about heirs) and Voldemort couldn't bring himself to kill a "sister." But he did. And he didn't seem to try to hard to get over it. > c. Lily was an heir of Gryffindor (see separate (and as yet unwritten) > post about heirs) and Voldemort knew he *couldn't* kill her without serious > mystical consequences. You use "an" instead of "the." Hmmmm, there are many, eh? I'm intrigued. Again, though, he didn't try too hard not to kill her. > d. Life debt. OK, it's *possible*, but Wormtail's canon life-debt to > Harry didn't keep Peter Pettigrew from conspiring to murder Harry. Evil, > again, you see? > See above. Darrin -- Ready to form the fifth Hogwarts house, represented by a chimpunk From jodel at aol.com Sat May 17 17:15:55 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 13:15:55 EDT Subject: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 Message-ID: <1ce.9d88e33.2bf7c84b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58056 I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that they need more than just new captains by now. Gryffindor may be lucky only being down a Keeper and needing to elect a new captain. I would not be at all surprised to learn that a number of the Slyths (who were all *at least* a year older than Harry -- and probably more like two) finished school last year leaving the way open for a number of the usual suspects (Crabbe & Goyle? Milicent Bulstrode? Pansy?) to try out for Beaters, Chasers and possibly their new Keeper. (Maybe we will finally find out whether Zabini is a boy or a girl.) I'm pretty sure that Davis was a Ravenclaw Chaser, but could be wrong about that. He may not have been the only player to finish school last year. Hufflepuff is down a Seeker and Captain, but they may have also lost another player or two through graduation. And everyone is out of practice. Upon the whole, I would say that the whole interhouse Quidditch landscape is due for a shake-up. It would make sense that one of the Gryffindor Chasers (Angelina, Alicia or Katie) be elected Captain this year, but I don't know whether Rowling will go there. (But it's about time she gave some girl other than Hermione some responsibility.) It would also fit that Ron *does* become the new Keeper. The twins may even stump up for a somewhat better -although probably not top quality- broom for him. (I suspect that Harry's anxiety about Ron being the new Keeper is more on the order of worriying that his pal might *not* make the team.) It would fit that if he turns out to be as good as we rather suspect, he may be Captain for the Trio's 7th year. I think that if Harry gets drafted as Captain it will feel just too contrived for words. Same thing for Prefect, although not quite so strongly. Even if it is "all about Harry" he needs a chance to take the back seat for a change. He's got bigger problems than High School. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Sat May 17 17:16:10 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 13:16:10 EDT Subject: Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts Message-ID: <17a.1ae8859b.2bf7c85a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58057 Amanda writes: > So I have no doubts whatsoever that she is the vengeful house-elf. > Dumbledore and Harry have caused the deaths of both Crouch men (or I > believe she will see it so), and given the way house-elves can move around > within and through the Hogwarts defenses, I think this could be a real > problem. I think only another elf will be able to protect against bad elf > magic, and Dobby may have a lot to do. > Boy howdy. After all, what kind of an examples of human behaviors and mentality has she got? We've got the oh-so-upright Crouch Sr. who talks the straight-and-narrow talk publicly and uses Unforgivable curses on his family to keep them in line. And the we have Crouch Jr. who has to be kept under Imperius in order not to murder his father in his sleep and be off to find his Master. And of course *nothing* was ever *their* fault... For the record, I think the publishers' quote was "venimous and disgruntled" rather than "vengeful". One can hardly blame her given the way the humans she most cared about treated her, but having a House Elf going postal in the Hogwarts kitchen sounds a bit, er, *disconcerting*. (Maybe we now find out something about the magical properties of a certain room mentioned in book 4 that "Harry hasn't discovered yet".) -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat May 17 18:54:38 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:54:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House elves References: <1053135173.6254.11541.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005401c31ca5$c75c4380$3c4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 58058 Ersatz Harry wrote: >But you do have me wondering about what happens to a house-elf when >its master dies. Given that it's a slave, I suppose it might be >inherited if there is someone to inherit it, but what if there isn't? I'm not sure that canon actually establishes that house elves are slaves, despite what Hermione might think. My own feeling is that they are attached to the _house_ rather than the family - it's just that because prestigious houses (such as Malfoy Manor) tend to remain in the hands of one family, the distinction is confused. If Winky hadn't been thrown out by Crouch, my thought would be that she would still be in the house, waiting for the new owner to take over (maybe it adds to the value - 4 bedrooms, 3 recep, en suite house elf!) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 17 19:15:03 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:15:03 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: <005401c31ca5$c75c4380$3c4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Ersatz Harry wrote: > > >But you do have me wondering about what happens to a house-elf when > >its master dies. Given that it's a slave, I suppose it might be > >inherited if there is someone to inherit it, but what if there isn't? > ffred followed: > I'm not sure that canon actually establishes that house elves are slaves, > despite what Hermione might think. Well... they are servants not being paid and they are forbidden from leaving to find a job that does pay. Unlike indentured servants, there appears to be no time limit on how long they must serve before being freed. Granted, we could be discussing a cultural difference, but the sure spells slavery to me. > My own feeling is that they are attached to the _house_ rather than the > family - it's just that because prestigious houses (such as Malfoy Manor) > tend to remain in the hands of one family, the distinction is confused. Then why do they continually talk about family? My family needs me. And if Lucius and Crouch can throw them out, than indicates the owner is more important than the dwelling. Darrin -- Lucius and Crouch. The next Simon and Garfunkel From shokoono at gmx.de Sat May 17 16:47:11 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (finchenmcsockschneck) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:47:11 -0000 Subject: How vulnerable is Voldemort??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58060 I wonder how vulnerable Voldemort is. As you can read in GoF wormtail is giving away his hand with only FOUR fingers for the potion that "reincarnates" Voldemort. Does this missing finger influence his powers or even his trials to become immortal? I do believe so. It could even be related to what dumbledore says in the end of PoA about Harry having saved wormtails live. This thing about the connection between them and that one day will be the day harry would be relieved about having saved wormtails life. What do you think?? yours finchen From tepmurt at hotmail.com Sat May 17 17:32:45 2003 From: tepmurt at hotmail.com (tepmurt9981) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:32:45 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? or History moves in circles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58061 Ok, I'm new here and I wasn't sure where to tack this on. Here goes... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria" wrote: > > I am unaware of canon-proof that James was a target of > Voldemort. We know Voldemort states Lily didn't have to die, > but that doesn't mean James had to die himself. He likely died > defending Harry. Harry is the threat to LV not because of the > bloodlines of *either* of his parents, but because of the > bloodline of *each* of his parents. I think that Harry is the heir > of Gryffindor and Slytherin... --------------------- I believe that Harry is only the heir of Gryffindor. I also think that this, in and of itself was not enough to threaten Voldemort, that there were other factors that made him come after the Potters. 1.) Trelawney's first prediction - Now it doesn't have to be Trelawney, but we've been left with a teaser. What was the first prediction? Obviously it was something relevant to HP or it wouldn't have come up at all (or we would have been told about it already). 2.) Sirius in the Shrieking Shack - I apologize profusely because by books are all packed at the moment, but in PoA when Sirius is confronting the newly-revealed Peter, he says that Harry was "the last of the Potters" (if anyone could give a page number for this I would be very grateful). Why is it important that Voldemort have the last of the Potters? 3.) Harry's eyes - This has nothing to do with being an heir, IMO, but bear with me for a moment. We know, from JK's comments, that Harry (and therefore Lily's) eye color is significant, that it might (probably will) indicate some special gift. 4.) Harry's inheritance - Harry has inherited a lot of money from his parents. When James and Lily died, they were in their very early twenties. I'm not sure that this would be enough time to earn that much money after they had just recently graduated. Also, in PP/SS Hagrid says something along the lines of (sorry, book is once again packed), "you didn't think that they'd leave you without any money, did you?" The fact that J and L were able to leave Harry with so much money when they died at such a young age suggests that one of the two of them had that sort of money to begin with. Since we know that James had an invisibility cloak and nothing about the Dursley's suggests that Petunia is at all wealthy, I believe that James is from an old, rich wizarding family. 5.) Voldemort killed James outright and told Lily to "step aside" So my theory is this: James is from an old wizarding family and is a descendant/heir of Gryffindor. Lily has a special power, as indicated by the unique color of her eyes. Harry now has both this eye power and is the new heir of Gryffindor. Trelawney predicted that only an heir of Gryffindor with that special "eye power" would be able to defeat the heir of Slytherin. This would explain why Voldemort killed James, but then told Lily to step aside instead of just killing her. If V killed James and Harry, and they were (as Sirius stated) "the last" Potters and therefore the last heirs of Gryffindor, then there could never be that same combination of "eye power" and Gryffindor heir. Tepmurt From glcherry at bellsouth.net Sat May 17 18:02:11 2003 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:02:11 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58062 Okay, still fairly new here, but I'm going to throw my two knuts in this conversation. We all seem to be forgetting one thing. In PS/SS (US paperback pg.209) when Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised, he doesn't see just Lily and James, he sees "other people with greens eyes like his,other noses like his, even a little old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobby knees--" He's looking at his family. Not just his parents, but Potter's, which tends to make me believe, since Dumbledore had to place Harry with the Dursley's that the entire Potter line had been eliminated. Maybe by Lord V, and his DE'S? Lily really wouldn't have mattered to Lord V, she was a Potter by marriage, not by blood. So maybe it is a 'feud' between House Founder Bloodlines, maybe not. All I know is June 21st is still too far off. Lorrie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 17 19:46:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:46:51 -0000 Subject: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > . > . > ..edited... > > > Maybe but I think that JKR will keep the power base even. lf Draco's > captain I think that Harry will be. If Draco's a prefect, I think > that Harry will be. (actually I think that Harry will be even IF Draco's not.) > > > Melissa bboy_mn: I think Draco will be captain. Funny I spend a lot of time thinking about and posting about how Gryffindor will have to start forming a new team since so many players will be gone in 6th year. But it never occurred to me that the same hold true for some of the other houses. Slytherin does need a new captain, and I think Draco will get it, not because he is the most qualified, but because he is popular and from a powerful family, and Slytherins respect power. So indeed, Draco will be the new captain. I think Harry will start out as captain of Gryffindor team, but I don't think it will suit him, and I think there will be conflicts between Harry and Ron (the new Keeper). I think Ron is better suited to being captain, and by or before the end of the year, Harry will turn his 'captainship' to Ron who will do an excellent job at it. Now all Ron has to do is become Prefect then Headboy, then win the Quidditch cup and all his dream will have come true. COmbine that with helping Harry defeat Voldemort and Ron will be bigger and better than all of his brothers combined. (Looks wistfully off into the distance and heaves a big sigh that sounds very much like 'my hero'.) Just a thought. bboy_mn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 17 20:08:31 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:08:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 Message-ID: <1df.922695b.2bf7f0bf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58064 In a message dated 5/17/2003 2:48:02 PM Central Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > Now all Ron has to do is become Prefect then Headboy, then win the > Quidditch cup and all his dream will have come true. COmbine that with > helping Harry defeat Voldemort and Ron will be bigger and better than > all of his brothers combined. (Looks wistfully off into the distance > and heaves a big sigh that sounds very much like 'my hero'.) > > Just a thought. > LOL Somehow I just don't think *all* that's going to happen. I can see him being captain eventually (possibly 6th year and winning the Quidditch cup) and definitely helping with Voldemort's defeat but I think that Rowling is heading towards Harry being a prefect and eventual Headboy. . there are just to many parallels she draws to James for me not to think so. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Sat May 17 20:09:10 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58065 On Sat, 17 May 2003, stardancerofas wrote: > Okay, still fairly new here, but I'm going to throw my two knuts in > this conversation. > > We all seem to be forgetting one thing. In PS/SS (US paperback pg.209) > when Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised, he doesn't see just Lily > and James, he sees "other people with greens eyes like his,other noses > like his, even a little old man who looked as though he had Harry's > knobby knees--" > > He's looking at his family. Not just his parents, but Potter's, which > tends to make me believe, since Dumbledore had to place Harry with the > Dursley's that the entire Potter line had been eliminated. > > Maybe by Lord V, and his DE'S? Lily really wouldn't have mattered to > Lord V, she was a Potter by marriage, not by blood. While I agree that it will probably turn out to be significant that Harry is the last of the Potters, I don't think we should read too much into what Harry saw in the Mirror. First, Harry gets his green eyes from his mother, an Evans, so some of the green-eyed people he saw in the mirror were probably from his mother's line; i.e. he wasn't just looking at Potters in the mirror. Second, Dumbledore tells Harry, "this mirror will give us neither knowledge nor truth." (PS/SS, US paperback, p213) So, even though Harry saw a large extended family in the mirror, those people may not really even exist. The mirror tells us that Harry *wants* them to exist, not that they actually do or ever did. It may very well be that Voldemort hunted down and killed every last member of the Potter clan except Harry. Or, the Potters could have died out naturally, having too few children over the years to sustain themselves. Heck, they could even have all died in a tragic accident at the last Potter family reunion. We do know that there are no more Potters at this time since DD says the Dursleys are Harry's only relatives, but we don't know *why* there are no more Potters. > So maybe it is a 'feud' between House Founder Bloodlines, maybe not. I have trouble seeing why anyone would care whether their great-great-great^x-grandfathers were enemies 1000+ years ago. When you go back that many generations, people have so many ancestors that focusing on the conflicts of just one or two doesn't make much sense. Unless there were a present-day conflict that descendents of the Founders happened to be involved in, I can't see why the 'bloodlines' would be at odds, and if it's about a present-day conflict, then it doesn't really have much to do with the Founders at all, does it? This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the 'Heir of Gryffindor vs. Heir of Slytherin' theories. But what do I know? JKR may be going off in a totally different direction with this than I would if I were writing. > All I know is June 21st is still too far off. Ain't that the truth? ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 17 20:13:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 20:13:34 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > ...edited... > > > > ffred followed: > > I'm not sure that canon actually establishes that house elves are slaves, > > despite what Hermione might think. > > > Well... they are servants not being paid and they are forbidden from > leaving to find a job that does pay. Unlike indentured servants, > there appears to be no time limit on how long they must serve before > being freed. > > Granted, we could be discussing a cultural difference, but the sure > spells slavery to me. > > ...edited... > > Darrin bboy_mn: I don't think house-elves are slave, but everyone including their owner DO think they are slave and that they are owned by their masters, but when you think about it, the only thing binding a house-elve to his master is house-elves honor. The house-elf has made a commitment to serve a family because that is what house-elves dol. The elf pledges his service and his allegiance to his master, and in doing so also pledges the service and allegiance of his decendants in perpetuity or for as long as their is a master to be served. In the case, of Crouch, the family line has died out, Bary Jr. was the last. That leaves the house-elf bound to no one. I think if a house-elf chooses to not honor that commitment, there is no legal precedent binding him to his master. Without a legally binding precedent, his former master is powerless to do anything to compell the house-elf to return. So what we have is a form of Voluntary Servitude. A voluntary arrangement that most master routinely abuse because they know as elf's honor is the thing the elf holds in highest regard. So the elf will take any amount of abue without limit, rather than dishonor him/herself. But at the very heart of it, there is nothing binding an elf, but his own decision to stay. I predict that at some point in the future, Hermione will realize this and use it as a means of functionally freeing the house-elves. In a sense, she will force elf holding wizards to either admit to slavery or acknowledge that the elves are free to do as they choose. Even in the somewhat backward wizard world, I don't think true slavery is an acceptable or politically correct thing to do. Right now, elf holding wizards have rationalized the system by saying the the elves like it and are happy, but they avoid slavery issue completely. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 17 20:24:23 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 20:24:23 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58067 Steve wrote: > > I think if a house-elf chooses to not honor that commitment, there is > no legal precedent binding him to his master. Without a legally > binding precedent, his former master is powerless to do anything to > compell the house-elf to return. I don't know. I don't see that Dobby wanted to be with the Malfoys any longer, but he was bound to him until Lucius was tricked into giving him clothes. Dobby went to all the trouble to warn Harry, and had to bang his head into walls and stuff to try and spit it out. If he could willingly give up the committment, it seems like that would have been much easier. Now, obviously, it's not elf-honor unless you're willing to stick it out... I'm saying Dobby appeared to have reached his limit and still needed Harry to free him. Darrin -- Elf Honor would be a great name for a band. From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat May 17 21:16:17 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:16:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? Message-ID: <1ea.90dc112.2bf800a1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58068 bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: >>It would seem like just the thing that an insecure, low self-esteem, >borderline psychotic with delusions of grandeur would create in his >own mind to support his delusions and justify his actions. A wonderful theory, and a great direction to take, but, as has been pointed out, it is canon that Tom Riddle IS an heir of Slytherin. Note that I say AN heir of Slytherin, because there is a small problem of what, for the purposes of the CoS, is an "heir": If we use the usual, broad meaning, any descendant of Salazar Slytherin is an "heir". Since the four founders of Hogwarts lived 1,000 years ago, they probably have thousands of descendants scattered around the world, mostly in Britain. It's also more than likely that a given witch/wizard is descended from more than one (or even all four) of the founders. For that matter, it is possible that the "wizard gene" can go recessive ("squibs") and thus a muggle could be a descendant of one of the founders. So what is an "heir", as opposed to a descendant? And can there be more than one heir running around simultaneously? For example, let us assume that Lucius Malfoy is an heir of Slytherin. Does this mean that Draco Malfoy is ALSO an heir of Slytherin? Now, if we say that there can only be ONE "Heir", with direct lineage in the manner of royal succession, Voldemort is the Heir of Slytherin and Harry appears to be the Heir of Gryffindor. And the "Heir of Slytherin" that opened the Chamber of Secrets is not Ginny or Harry, but Riddle/Voldemort each time. Prof Binns says that only "[Salazar Slytherin's] own true heir". This avoids the question of whether there can be more than one at time, since in the course of 1,000 years, there must have been several. My own interpretation of the phrase "true heir" would be that, in addition to being a descendant of Salazar Slytherin, the person would have to embody the actions and beliefs of the founder of the line. I would not presume to say what these were, but they are certainly a factor in which House a person is sorted into. The Sorting Hat, which certainly knows *precisely* what they are, would therefore put the "true heir" of Salazar Slytherin in Slytherin House, which I think precludes any argument that Tom Riddle was anything but a Slytherin. The Malfoys probably embody these principles as well, but there's no way of knowing if they are blood descendants. So my take on the matter is a matter of hair-splitting semantics. Each of the Founders of Hogwarts has several (perhaps many) "heirs". A person may be heir to one or all of the Founders. Each has only one "Heir", and one always exists. It is theoretically possible (but unlikely) for a given person to be Heir to more than one Founder. Each has only one "true heir" at a time, and possibly not even that many. Since the Founders and their Houses encompass different philosophies, I don't see how one could be true heir to more than one Founder. Most of the above is, of course, JMHO. -- Ray Anyone have any idea of who the Ravenclaw master is? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 17 21:27:07 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030517212707.69427.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58069 Steve wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > Steve wrote: > > > What are the odds that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is not the true > > > Heir of Slytherin but the self-proclaimed Heir of Slytherin. > > ME: No question he is the Heir of Slytherin. Dumbledore himself said > he was in CoS. ...edited... > > Huggs Becky > bboy_mn: Could you narrow down that CoS reference a bit. I'm not doubting you, just drawing a blank on what part of the book it might be in. bboy_mn ME: I don't have the book in front of me, alas but it's at the end when Dumbledore mentioned to Harry that he could speak Parseltongue because Lord Voldemort, who IS the last remaining heir of Syltherine could speak Parseltongue. I am not positive if he used the word heir or descendent here but I believe he said heir. And since the heir would definitely be a desendent it would amount to the same thing anyway at least in this case. Huggs Becky Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 17 22:11:34 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:11:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 Message-ID: <62.306f27a3.2bf80d96@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58070 In a message dated 5/17/2003 12:19:17 PM Central Standard Time, jodel at aol.com writes: > I think that if Harry gets drafted as Captain it will feel just too > contrived > for words. Same thing for Prefect, although not quite so strongly. Even if > it > is "all about Harry" he needs a chance to take the back seat for a change. > He's got bigger problems than High School. > > -JOdel > > True he has big problems but how much bigger will those problems be if he doesn't get a good education . .( that's the mom in me). . Someone posted (sorry can't recall who at the moment) that they hated it when Hagrid had to lean on Harry for emotional support. I feel the same way with everyone relying on Harry to solve the Voldemort problem. When all is said and done he's still only a 15 year old boy. He can't sleep, eat and breath Voldemort 24/7, he'll implode. Let the adults step up to the plate. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat May 17 22:31:46 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:31:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Message-ID: <5a.1c8dfc9d.2bf81252@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58071 Darrin, We seem to be largely in agreement on this. Voldemort *always* intended to kill Lily *after* he killed Harry. Lily's sacrifice is what broke Voldemort's power and saved Harry. > >4. Why would Voldemort have spared Lily? > > a. He wouldn't. He was going to kill Harry first (well, second after > >James) and make her watch. THEN he was going to kill her. He is, after > all, > >evil. > > This one's mine. I think he really was just being efficient. First, kill > the main > threat (V-Mort, being not only elitist, but probably sexist, would consider > that > James), then kill who you came to kill, and then tie up loose ends like > Lily. I'm not so sure about that. A mother defending her child is not something to be brushed aside, even by a megalomaniac like Voldemort. I think he wanted to make Lily suffer by watching both deaths. Of course, this would seem to focus Voldemort's hatred on Lily, and lead to tons of speculation as to what their personal relationship might have been. Two other possible reasons: > > b. Lily was an heir of Slytherin (see separate (and as yet unwritten) > post > >about heirs) and Voldemort couldn't bring himself to kill a "sister." > > But he did. And he didn't seem to try to hard to get over it. > > > c. Lily was an heir of Gryffindor (see separate (and as yet unwritten) > >post about heirs) and Voldemort knew he *couldn't* kill her without > serious > >mystical consequences. > > You use "an" instead of "the." Hmmmm, there are many, eh? I'm intrigued. > Again, though, he didn't try too hard not to kill her. My musings on who is and is not an heir has been posted, so we can discuss those there. But the question of "trying not to kill Lily" only comes up if Harry dies first. What happened instead is that Lily planted herself between a homicidal maniac and his target. This is NOT the path to long, happy life. Now we come to the coulda/shoulda/woulda analysis of that little scene. Why didn't Lily use her wand? Why didn't she try a binding spell? Why did she just stand there pleading with him like a helpless Muggle? Is a wand in the WW like a gun in the Old West? Something that one has with them constantly even when theoretically safe? Hogwarts students and teachers tend to have them all the time, except while sleeping. Harry's wand is locked away in the trunk while he's with the Dursleys, but he seems to keep it with him while with the Weasleys, and took it with him to the Quidditch World Cup. So the answer seems to be "yes", but the house in Godrick's Hollow was (IIRC) attacked at night, and it was supposedly protected by the Secret Keeper spell. James and Lily may have been sleeping when attacked and had no chance to get their wands. In our Muggle World, when an attacker breaks into the house, a mother tends to immediately head for the nursery. She doesn't grab a knife from the kitchen or a (hypothetic) gun from the bedstand or closet. She runs to the crib to protect her child with teeth and nails and other primal weapons. Thus, I'm not too surprised that Lily went to Harry without her wand. One simply doesn't think that way. OR, Lily may have realized that there was no point to dueling with someone as powerful as Voldemort and tried to use feminine wiles, emotional arguments, and (if she got close enough) a good old-fashioned knee to the groin against a more powerful adversary. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 17 22:55:23 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:55:23 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: <5a.1c8dfc9d.2bf81252@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > Darrin, > > We seem to be largely in agreement on this. Voldemort *always* intended to kill Lily *after* he killed Harry. Lily's sacrifice is what broke > Voldemort's power and saved Harry. > Gawrsh... someone agrees with me out here? I don't know what to do! > I'm not so sure about that. A mother defending her child is not something to > be brushed aside, even by a megalomaniac like Voldemort. I think he wanted to make Lily suffer by watching both deaths. Of course, this would seem to focus Voldemort's hatred on Lily, and lead to tons of speculation as to what their personal relationship might have been. V-Mort doesn't strike me as having a good grasp of maternal bonds. I understand that a mother protecting her child IS powerful, but I'm just not sure V-Mort would. The "you silly girl" really just jumps out at me as V-Mort considering her beneath notice. Add in that she's a Muggle-born and she's even more useless, in his eyes. Whoops. His bad. But so long as the past relationship, if any, between Lily and V-Mort is one of special hatred, rather than a special reason V-Mort would want to keep her alive, then it is plausible. But the question of "trying not to kill Lily" only comes up if > Harry dies first. What happened instead is that Lily planted herself between > a homicidal maniac and his target. This is NOT the path to long, happy life. > Actually, it has come up. V-Mort giving two verbal warnings and taunting Harry later about how his mother didn't have to die has been latched onto as V-Mort wanting to spare her. I don't agree. I'd feel better about this if canon indicated more that Lily jumped in the way of the blast, but it is inconclusive at best. The 'stand aside" indicates that she was in the way, he told her to move, she didn't, he shrugged his scaly shoulders, and blasted her. Sorry, I don't believe V-Mort gave two whits about her living. Perhaps it would have been more delicious to kill her last -- or have his way with her before killing her, (EWWWWWWW!) -- but in the end, it just didn't matter. > Now we come to the coulda/shoulda/woulda analysis of that little scene. Why didn't Lily use her wand? Why didn't she try a binding spell? Why did she just stand there pleading with him like a helpless Muggle? One idea I had is that, for the sacrifice spell to work, she would have to be completely passive and non-violent. But I dislike the entire sacrifice spell concept to begin with. I kind of like to think of it the same way as Harry protecting Wormtail and then Wormtail has a magical debt. Harry didn't recite an incantation, or drink one of Snape's potions, or had Dumbledore place a charm on him. It just happened because he did a good thing. I hope the magical protection given to Harry because his mom sacrificed herself operates on the same principle. > Is a wand in the WW like a gun in the Old West? Something that one has with them constantly even when theoretically safe? Hogwarts students and teachers tend to have them all the time, except while sleeping. Harry's wand is locked away in the trunk while he's with the Dursleys, but he seems to keep > it with him while with the Weasleys, and took it with him to the Quidditch > World Cup. So the answer seems to be "yes", but the house in Godrick's > Hollow was (IIRC) attacked at night, and it was supposedly protected by the > Secret Keeper spell. James and Lily may have been sleeping when attacked and had no chance to get their wands. James talks about holding him off, so unless he planned to do it with his fists, he probably had a wand. > OR, Lily may have realized that there was no point to dueling with someone as powerful as Voldemort and tried to use feminine wiles, emotional arguments, and (if she got close enough) a good old-fashioned knee to the groin against a more powerful adversary. > Darrin -- If I was in the wizard world, I'd have the Iron Protective Cup spell cast like... forever. From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 17 23:18:43 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:18:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves References: Message-ID: <001401c31cca$a9819840$45ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58073 > Steve wrote: > > > > I think if a house-elf chooses to not honor that commitment, there is > > no legal precedent binding him to his master. Without a legally > > binding precedent, his former master is powerless to do anything to > > compell the house-elf to return. > Darrin wrote: > I don't know. I don't see that Dobby wanted to be with the Malfoys any longer, > but he was bound to him until Lucius was tricked into giving him clothes. > > Dobby went to all the trouble to warn Harry, and had to bang his head into > walls and stuff to try and spit it out. If he could willingly give up the > committment, it seems like that would have been much easier. Exactly. To my mind, I see it as a magically binding commitment. A house elf swears to serve a given household, in this case, the Malfoys, and that elf and all of his/her descendants must also serve that family. Granted, this leaves a lot left open. When the house elf has children, do the children also need to swear the commitment, or are they bound because their parents swore the commitment? Can any member of the family set a house elf free, or does it have to be the Head of House? We've seen Crouch Sr and Lucius have the authority to set a house elf free, but could Draco fire one if he so chose? Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 17 23:36:45 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:36:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort References: Message-ID: <002401c31ccd$2e405fb0$45ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58074 >Poster-Who-Can't-Be-Named-Because-I-Don't-Know-Who-It-Was said: > > > 3. "Take me instead" line: Most mothers will offer themselves in place of > > their child when the latter is in danger, but my take on this is that Lily > > was not offering her life, but rather her body. Lily was, by all accounts, a > > very attractive woman, and the offer by a mother to "go" with the villain, or > > "be" with the villain, or even marry the villain (in return for the child's > > life) is fairly common in fiction. But as in most cases, the offer is > > rejected. Certainly offering something most men would be interested in > would be more likely to succeed than asking a Dark Lord to "have mercy". > Darrin continued: > Eh, OK. First, let me say, EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! > > Now, I suppose this works, but obviously, V-Mort didn't have any compunction > about killing her, which still means the "V-Mort went in there with the idea to > spare Lily" doesn't entirely work. > I rule this one out basically because, although many adults read this series and JKR has admitted she's writing these books for herself, I can't see what is still considered a children's book introducing this theme. "If you don't kill me, I'll let you and all your buddies have my body!" I don't think so. On a completely unrelated note, I saw a woman today who was wearing a shirt that said She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 17 23:43:02 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:43:02 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: <001401c31cca$a9819840$45ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58075 Kelly wrote: > Exactly. To my mind, I see it as a magically binding commitment. A house > elf swears to serve a given household, in this case, the Malfoys, and that > elf and all of his/her descendants must also serve that family. Granted, > this leaves a lot left open. When the house elf has children, do the > children also need to swear the commitment, or are they bound because their > parents swore the commitment? Can any member of the family set a house elf > free, or does it have to be the Head of House? We've seen Crouch Sr and > Lucius have the authority to set a house elf free, but could Draco fire one > if he so chose? > God, I love this stuff! We know the dismissal isn't based on intent. Lucius certainly didn't want to dismiss Dobby. Dobby also, if I recall, says something about how his "family" is very careful not to give him clothes. This could indicate that any one of them could, but I don't know if it's conclusive. Let's just say that Draco would have some serious 'spaining to do if he accidentally did it. Now, the counter to this is Barty Jr. In his more lucid moments as he was coming out of the Imperio curse. One strategy might have been to force clothes on Winky, to free her, and then hope she leaves. (or is so overwrought he can slip away) He didn't do this. Of course, his father might just have gotten another one, so maybe this is bad strategy. Again, inconclusive. As for the children, I don't know. But we know that house elves have to come from somewhere. Say the Weasleys, once they get Percy and the twins out of the house, find themselves with more money than they are used to. Say Arthur finally gives in and gets Molly a house-elf for their retirement years. (They send the elf away whenever daughter-in-law Hermione comes over -- sorry, minor Ship attack there.) Where would they get one? Is there a trading post? An elf trade where they are on display on a stage -- much like the slaves were? An elf store? Presumably, they would have to be charmed from "neutral" or "bound to their trader" to "bound to the Weasleys." But, coming to the children... maybe the children of a house elf are sent to the trading posts? I mean, the stock would have to come from somewhere. (In which case, Hermione is dead-on right to continue her fight.) Darrin -- Weasel Binders would be a wonderful name for a band. From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 18 00:02:34 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:02:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves References: Message-ID: <002f01c31cd0$c97a8110$45ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58076 > Kelly wrote: > > > Exactly. To my mind, I see it as a magically binding commitment. A house > > elf swears to serve a given household, in this case, the Malfoys, and that > > elf and all of his/her descendants must also serve that family. Granted, > > this leaves a lot left open. When the house elf has children, do the > > children also need to swear the commitment, or are they bound because > their > > parents swore the commitment? Can any member of the family set a house > elf > > free, or does it have to be the Head of House? We've seen Crouch Sr and > > Lucius have the authority to set a house elf free, but could Draco fire one > > if he so chose? > > > Darrin here: > God, I love this stuff! > > We know the dismissal isn't based on intent. Lucius certainly didn't want to > dismiss Dobby. Dobby also, if I recall, says something about how his "family" > is very careful not to give him clothes. This could indicate that any one of them > could, but I don't know if it's conclusive. > > Let's just say that Draco would have some serious 'spaining to do if he > accidentally did it. > Yeah, I don't see Draco ever doing it, either. I just used him as an example of being a member of a family that owns a house elf, but not the Head of that household. > > As for the children, I don't know. But we know that house elves have to come > from somewhere. > You might want to rered Chapter 21 of GoF. Interesting stuff there. I'm not going to sit here and quote it all, but just sum up what I've noticed. After Dobby was "set free," he traveled around looking for work. I'm not sure if he went door to door, but he did talk to many different witches and wizards. Actually, I get the impression door to door is just what he did, because he eventually came to Hogwarts, looking to potentially work for Dumbledore. Returning to commitments for a minute, Dobby says, "Winky forgets she is not bound to Mr. Crouch anymore," which helps reinforce the magically binding commitment, in my mind. Winky says she has served the Crouch family her entire life, as her mother and grandmother did before her, implying that it is a generational thing, although shedding no light on whether each individual needs to make a commitment, or just the first one (like will Dobby's children be bound by Dobby's contract, or will they have to swear it themselves, for an example). Hope all of this helps. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun May 18 00:23:57 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 00:23:57 -0000 Subject: The Last Potter!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58077 I have been trying to keep up with the Heir of whoever vs heir of whomever and all the reasoning behind Voldemort wanting to kill the Potters and spare Lily and the like, but their seems to be something missing from all the theries. What I can't understand is what Dumbledore tells Professor McGonagall on page 13 (US) in SS/PS: "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left." Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that not only all the Potters are dead, but all the Evans' are dead also? "They're the only family he has left", means no more Potters OR Evans. So, these are my the questions that come to mind: 1)Did V kill all the Potters and almost all the Evans? 2)Is the reason that Harry has to stay at the Dursleys to protect Harry, or the Evans, Patunia and Dudley, or all 3, Harry, Patunia and Dudley? 3)And if V did not have anything to do with all but 2 Evans dieing, why are there no more, anywhere? I am sure this has been brought up, but up till now, I have not seen it mentioned. Thanks for your time; Fred Waldrop From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 00:30:32 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030518003032.19266.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58078 --- darrin_burnett wrote: > Say the Weasleys, once they get Percy and the twins out of the house, > find themselves with more money than they are used to. Say Arthur finally > gives in and gets Molly a house-elf for their retirement years. (They send > the elf away whenever daughter-in-law Hermione comes over -- sorry, minor > Ship attack there.) Remember in COS when the Weasley boys are explaining house elves to Harry, they say something about "they come with old manor houses" or something like that. (Sorry, in the middle of a move and all my books are packed up!) This implies that they ARE in some way bound to the structure, or at least to the *owners* of the structure. Perhaps if the Crouches had moved, they'd had to have either left Winky behind for the new owners or made special arrangements with them to take her with them. Andrea __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 18 00:36:33 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 00:36:33 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: <20030518003032.19266.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58079 Andrea: > > Remember in COS when the Weasley boys are explaining house elves to Harry, > they say something about "they come with old manor houses" or something > like that. (Sorry, in the middle of a move and all my books are packed > up!) This implies that they ARE in some way bound to the structure, or at > least to the *owners* of the structure. Perhaps if the Crouches had > moved, they'd had to have either left Winky behind for the new owners or > made special arrangements with them to take her with them. > > I'm at work and away from the books, but I seem to remember the line being more along the lines of "found in" rather than "come with." But another point. If the loyalty is not so much to the family, then why couldn't Winky just give her loyalty to someone else? And who are the house elves at Hogwarts bound to? Is it D-Dore? Is there a person in charge of the kitchens we haven't met yet? Last one to check the CoS reference is a rotten basilisk egg! Darrin -- And yes, Rotten Basilisk Eggs would be a GREAT band name. From emeleel at juno.com Sun May 18 00:43:06 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:43:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves Message-ID: <20030517.194307.-982141.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58080 Steve wrote: >>I think if a house-elf chooses to not honor that commitment, there is no legal precedent binding him to his >>master. Without a legally binding precedent, his former master is powerless to do anything to >>compell the house-elf to return. Then Darrin said: >I don't know. I don't see that Dobby wanted to be with the Malfoys any longer, but he was bound to him >until Lucius was tricked into giving him clothes. >Dobby went to all the trouble to warn Harry, and had to bang his head into walls and stuff to try and spit it >out. If he could willingly give up the committment, it seems like that would have been much easier.' Now me, Melanie: I agree with Darrin. While probably most elves are willing servants, I think that they are, nonetheless, bound to them no matter what. It was just Dobby's bad luck that he got stuck with the Malfoys. While willing servitude has historical precedent (such as the Old Testament Jewish laws concerning a slave who wishes to remain a slave for a particular master beyond their normal period of servitude) I don't think that elf service is *totally* willing, or up to them, or Dobby, as strong-willed as he is, would have left the Malfoys long ago. Now, as to the future of the elves, I hate to say it, but I really feel that the whole S.P.E.W. thing was a machination for GoF, and we won't hear much if anything more about it. I hope I'm wrong, but I really felt that the whole thing was nothing more than a plot element used to get HHR into the kitchens to find out about Winky - and Dobby, too, of course. Melanie Who thinks that "Egomaniacal Megalomaniacs" would make a great band name. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 18 00:57:01 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 02:57:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? References: Message-ID: <002f01c31cd8$65775960$f993253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58081 Greicy wrote: Have you guys seen this picture: http://www.mugglenet.com/images/ootp-promostand.jpg It shows three persons, one of them is obviously Mad Eye Moody. The other two are up for speculation, but I personally think that the boy with the spikey hair is Ron because he has freckles and his nose is long as JKR describes him. So could Ron be the one to kick the boot in OOP. It is said that "...Harry finds depth and strength in his friends, beyond what even he knew; boundless loyalty and unbearable sacrifice." The only thing that makes me doubt that it is Ron is that in chapter pictures is his hair looks wavy. Me (Izaskun): I don't think it's Ron, when I first saw the picture I thought it was Percy, don't ask me why. And the other man might be Lupin or some character we don't know yet. (Mundungus Fletcher??) But right now I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe the kid is Neville. I think he's going to play a major role in the coming books. By the way, this afternoon, looking again at the cover I saw something very peculiar. In the picture, Harry is standing in the middle of a circular room, candles floating in mid-air and three doors ajar. Well, I swear I saw like the shadow of what looks like a woman in the treshold of the first door on the left. I could perfectly see the face and long wavy hair. Can anyone else see it or I'm starting to be slightly delusional?? CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sun May 18 01:04:57 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:04:57 -0000 Subject: Basilisk Skin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58082 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > I'm wondering what the true length of the creature is - > not having the books with me, I can't be sure, but didn't the > American version say that the basilisk's *skin* was 20 feet long? > > If the skin is 20 *feet* long, is it possible that the basilisk > itself was 20 metres long? Does anyone know about the proportions > between snake-skins and actual snake sizes? > > -Tom Me(Linda): The Book actually stated that "The creature who had shed it had to be 20 feet long at least.". If I remember grammer school correctly ( in other words don't hold me to this too closely), a meter is about three feet, four inches.(English to metric conversions always gave me a headache.) Therefore, 20 feet would be about...let's see...20 X 30 divided by one hundred centimeters...six meters. Ok, so the snake is aroud six meters long when it sheds the skin that HR and Lockhart find in the chamber. Going once again back to my long ago school days( this time to life sciences class) I believe that the reason a reptile sheds it's skin is because it has outgrown it. It is necessary in order for the natural growth of the animal to continue. Therefore, we must assume that the basilisk is longer than the skin in the chamber. Since we don't know how long before the events in the chamber the skin was shed, we, scientifically, really have no way of knowing how much the creature has grown since the shedding. We don't even know that this is the last skin that was shed. There could easily be a more recently shed skin somewhere else in the castle since the basilisk had been roaming the plumbing several times in the proceding months. -Linda, who's head is hurting from thinking that far back. From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 18 01:06:26 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 03:06:26 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? References: <023c01c31c8b$285cad20$ad2c8351@j0dhe> Message-ID: <004801c31cd9$b5bd2a20$f993253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58083 Hollydaze wrote: ... I'm intrigued by the fact that their appears to be an open door on the spine/front. If you look at the bottom left next to the tree, there is what looks like a stone arch and about 4 steps leading up. At the top of the steps there is something like a doorframe and light coming through a crack down the side (the type you see when a door is opened in the dark) the light from the crack and the doorway are illuminating the steps, the left side of the tree and the ground just in front of the boarded up window, as well as part of the stone archway round the door. me (Izaskun): Not only that, if you look carefully you'll see a shadow in the light. As if someone from the inside was trying to look through the gap in the door. Curious. CHeers, Izaskun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun May 18 01:12:50 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 20:12:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? References: <002f01c31cd8$65775960$f993253e@takun> Message-ID: <028d01c31cda$9cdbe1d0$5a9ccdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 58084 Izaskun: > I don't think it's Ron, when I first saw the picture I thought it was Percy, > don't ask me why. And the other man might be Lupin or some character we don't > know yet. (Mundungus Fletcher??) But right now I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe > the kid is Neville. I think he's going to play a major role in the coming > books. Me (Richelle): I've spent loads of time today thinking about this, and went through books 1-4 looking at the drawings for each chapter. The man is certainly Mad Eye Moody, besides the eye thing it perfectly matches the GoF drawing of Mad Eye Moody in the chapter of with that name. There was no picture of Lupin, so the other man can't be determined. But if it's not Lupin, it's a character that's never been described to us, because it sure looks like Lupin to me. I don't think the boy is Ron either, it doesn't match the pictures of Ron that have been drawn before. He always has a lot more hair than that, and it just looks different. The closest I could find was the picture for the chapter "The Dueling Club" in CoS. I'm guessing that was supposed to be Justin petrified??? The few similarites could just be because it's the same artist, of course. Izaskun again: > By the way, this afternoon, looking again at the cover I saw something very > peculiar. In the picture, Harry is standing in the middle of a circular room, > candles floating in mid-air and three doors ajar. Well, I swear I saw like the > shadow of what looks like a woman in the treshold of the first door on the > left. I could perfectly see the face and long wavy hair. Can anyone else see it > or I'm starting to be slightly delusional?? Me (Richelle) again: Hmm, I hadn't even noticed that until you mentioned it. However, if I zoomed in about 1000% (pathetic, I know) it becomes a lot more noticeable. But I don't think it's a woman, it looks more like a dementor. If you look closely you can see what looks more like a scull than a face, and the darker part you described as wavy hair could be the cloak of the dementor. 35 days! Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 18 01:19:19 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 03:19:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? References: Message-ID: <007301c31cdb$8bbfe350$f993253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58085 Darrin wrote: First, let me say that I love this theory. I posted that it would be a hoot if the good Slyth I've wanted is actually Salazar himself, cutting V-Mort loose when the chips are really down. A couple of things to question it though. We know from Dumbledore that Riddle is the ancestor/descendant of Slytherin. So, he is related, unless D-Dore is wrong or lying. But does that make him the "heir" in the sense of the "chosen one" sense of the word? Not necessarily. Salazar probably had lots of descendants. Riddle WAS able to open the Chamber of Secrets. Now, whether Salazar set it up to where any old Parselmouth could do it or not could be up for debate. But overall, I like this idea. Me (Izaskun): Well, I always thoutht that this thing with the Slytherin Heir has a weak point. It doesn't state the heir must be from his own blood. I think the whole idea of the Heir who'll come and reopen the chamber was more about someone with the ability to speak parseltongue and who was willing to continue Salazar's doings, purge the school of muggleborns and become a great wizard. Someone to walk on his footsteps, so to say. Not necesaryly a true descendant. But anyway all this legend of the heir sounds a bit like the legend of the mesiah to me. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Sun May 18 01:33:43 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:33:43 -0000 Subject: Why should we trust Moody/Crouch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "young_he2003" wrote: > Something bothers me. If we believe Moody/Crouch then there is no > defense to the AK, no counter curse and no cure. I believe him. > Therefore, regardless of Lily's protection, Harry did not survive the > AK because the there is no protection. Now me(Linda): I'm catching up with over 130 posts since this is the first time I've been able to sit down at my computer in over 24 hours so if this reply seems a little late, please forgive me. After catching up on all those posts, the above comment stuck out in my mind and since I didn't see it addressed from the angle I'm addressing it from I thought I would put in my two knuts. Why should we believe Moody/Crouch when he says that the AK cannot be blocked and there is no cure? He has every reason in the world to lie about it. He is speaking to a group of students that more than likely will be opposing him in the coming Voldemort war. (I'm not going to get into a stereotype discussion...I did say more than likely, not definitely.) Why would he give them correct information? Disinformation can be one of the most formidable weapons in war, indeed in any kind of conflict involving large numbers of people.(Political campaigns for instance? No,no,no...I won't go into that here either.) The nature of Moody's/Crouch's statement could easily have been a *prepping of the battlefield* as it were. I wonder how much other erroneous information he might have given his students through the course of the year. -Linda From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 18 01:36:40 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:36:40 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: <20030517.194307.-982141.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58087 > Now me, Melanie: > > Now, as to the future of the elves, I hate to say it, but I really feel > that the whole S.P.E.W. thing was a machination for GoF, and we won't > hear much if anything more about it. I hope I'm wrong, but I really felt > that the whole thing was nothing more than a plot element used to get HHR > into the kitchens to find out about Winky - and Dobby, too, of course. We'll see. After Scabbers being Pettigrew --- the most shocking plot twist we've had yet, I think -- I'm not ready to write anything off as tangential or machinations. But, yeah, I hope you're wrong too. > Melanie > Who thinks that "Egomaniacal Megalomaniacs" would make a great band name. > > If you can guarantee me they won't get called the "Egg Megs," I'll add it to the list. Darrin -- No, I really don't have a list, so don't ask to see it! From grace701 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 02:50:47 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 02:50:47 -0000 Subject: Prefect Clarification, I'm confused (was: Re: All Quidditch teams need new Capt In-Reply-To: <1df.922695b.2bf7f0bf@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58088 Melissa wrote: > LOL Somehow I just don't think *all* that's going to happen. I can see him > being captain eventually (possibly 6th year and winning the Quidditch cup) > and definitely helping with Voldemort's defeat but I think that Rowling is > heading towards Harry being a prefect and eventual Headboy. . there are just > to many parallels she draws to James for me not to think so. I'm confused, maybe you guys can clarify. How many Prefects are there to each House? I only hear of Percy being the Prefect of Gryffindor when he was in school and Cedric in GoF for Hufflepuff. So if Harry becomes a Prefect where does that leave Hermione. Hermione *has* to be Prefect she is the smartest in her class. Greicy, who fears the wrath of Hermione is Harry is chosen over her for Prefect From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sun May 18 02:58:14 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:58:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prefect Clarification, I'm confused (was: Re: All Quiddi... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58089 In a message dated 5/17/2003 9:51:24 PM Central Standard Time, grace701 at yahoo.com writes: > I'm confused, maybe you guys can clarify. How many > Prefects are there to each House? I only hear of Percy being the > Prefect of Gryffindor when he was in school and Cedric in GoF for > Hufflepuff. So if Harry becomes a Prefect where does that leave > Hermione. Hermione *has* to be Prefect she is the smartest in her > class. > I've asked around a bit ..including my supervisor at work and was told that every school works differently so its entirely possible for both of them to be prefects (she's a big HP fan as well) . I think that in order to have a shot at being Head Boy and Head Girl you have to be a prefect first. James and Lily were H B & G in their year and IIRC they were both Gryffindors And little Movie contamination here but in COS you can see that Oliver is wearing a prefects badge as well. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun May 18 03:06:06 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:06:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Message-ID: <8.37b9e763.2bf8529e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58090 ivanova at idcnet.com writes: > >Poster-Who-Can't-Be-Named-Because-I-Don't-Know-Who-It-Was said: > <> > I rule this one out basically because, although many adults read this series > and JKR has admitted she's writing these books for herself, I can't see > what > is still considered a children's book introducing this theme. "If you > don't > kill me, I'll let you and all your buddies have my body!" I don't think > so. Just as children know that Elmer Fudd lusting after Bugs Bunny in a dress and lipstick is funny without knowing quite why, Lily's unspoken offer to Voldemort is for the adults who know "the secret". I agree that she could never make the offer explicitly in a children's book, but the fact us, she didn't. Likewise, she didn't say "kill me instead", she said, "take me instead". -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sun May 18 03:52:23 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 03:52:23 -0000 Subject: Why the Potters? or History moves in circles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tepmurt9981" wrote: > Ok, I'm new here and I wasn't sure where to tack this on. Here > goes... > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria" > wrote: > > > > I am unaware of canon-proof that James was a target of > > Voldemort. We know Voldemort states Lily didn't have to die, > > but that doesn't mean James had to die himself. He likely died > > defending Harry. Harry is the threat to LV not because of the > > bloodlines of *either* of his parents, but because of the > > bloodline of *each* of his parents. I think that Harry is the heir > > of Gryffindor and Slytherin... > > --------------------- > > I believe that Harry is only the heir of Gryffindor. Me (Valky): I don't have a clue about the Heirship of any body but I have comment on the other points that you mention in relation to "Why the Potters?" > 1.) Trelawney's first prediction - Now it doesn't have to be > Trelawney, but we've been left with a teaser. What was the first > prediction? Obviously it was something relevant to HP or it > wouldn't have come up at all (or we would have been told about it > already). > Me (Valky): See my next entry also in relation to this. Trelawneys first prediction is believed by many to be a prediction of the downfall of Voldemort by a Potter. This is a logical conclusion. Yes. I am of the opinion that most of the simple logical conclusions, such as this, that we can draw from a HP novel are Red Herrings. I am tending more towards a belief that Trelawney is an habitual doomsayer and more likely predicted the betrayal and death of all but one of the Potters. I doubt, strongly, a joyous event such as the defeat of the terror "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named." *sic* could be predicted by Trelawney. What does everyone else think, keeping in mind that Trelawney is not reknowned for any *happy* premonitions what might her *first* true one have been. > 2.) Sirius in the Shrieking Shack - I apologize profusely because > by books are all packed at the moment, but in PoA when Sirius is > confronting the newly-revealed Peter, he says that Harry was "the > last of the Potters" (if anyone could give a page number for this I > would be very grateful). Why is it important that Voldemort have > the last of the Potters? > Me(Valky): I looked through my copy of POA for you, but I couldn't find the exact statement that you have asked for. On page 275 of my book however, Sirius does say to Harry; Referring to Peter "....His own stinking skin meant more to him than your *whole* family." Perhaps this is the indication that Harry was the last of the Potters that you refer to. As we know Peter was accused by Sirius of passing information to LV for a whole year before the night at GH. Curiously, the beginning coinciding with the approximate time of Harry's birth. I suppose that, in that year, more Potters than James and Lily were, likely, pursued. It may have been a year where LV dedicated himself to destroying the entire Potter lineage. I am curious as to why it seems that Harry's birth could have triggered this paranoia from LV, however. Perhaps it was an astrological phenomenon that occurred at this time. JK has made strong reference to the use of Astrology by the WW and its creatures, it is canon not yet explored in great depth but strongly and mysteriously hinted at in PS, POA and GOF. > 3.) Harry's eyes - This has nothing to do with being an heir, IMO, > but bear with me for a moment. We know, from JK's comments, > that Harry (and therefore Lily's) eye color is significant, that it > might (probably will) indicate some special gift. > Me (Valky): I like this angle. There is some mysterious factor involved in the beauty of the GREEN Eyes shared by Harry and Lily. I am not sure what, though. I have a feeling that the *green* colour is a clue to the nature of it, though. > 4.) Harry's inheritance - Harry has inherited a lot of money from > his parents. When James and Lily died, they were in their very > early twenties. I'm not sure that this would be enough time to > earn that much money after they had just recently graduated. > Also, in PP/SS Hagrid says something along the lines of (sorry, > book is once again packed), "you didn't think that they'd leave > you without any money, did you?" > Me (Valky): I am not of the opinion that the Potters weren't wealthy, but I don't believe that this had a direct influence on Voldemorts targeting of them. However the nature of their vast wealth at such a young age does suggest some *noble lineage* pending revelation, surely. Indirectly I believe that their wealth was a factor in LV's dissapproval of them. //using the term *dissapproval too lightly for want of a better word.// > > 5.) Voldemort killed James outright and told Lily to "step aside" > > So my theory is Me(Valky): I like the theory that LV intended Lily to suffer. Perhaps Trelawneys prediction was made to Lily that her Husband and Child would be AKed by an Evil Wizard. I don't disagree with the elements of your theory. Pieced together nicely. James lineage, Lily's remarkable ability, Trelawneys Prediction. They are IMO definately an equation for the Why The Potters? question. :P > From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 18 03:59:54 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 03:59:54 -0000 Subject: Many Replies to 2 Weeks' Posts, please scroll down to find *YOUR* NAME!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58092 New!Becky gopotter2004 wrote: << After all, in the first book, if a fourth friend was to be chosen for Ron, Hermione, and Harry, it would likely have been Neville. >> Some brilliantly insightful listie (but I don't remember which one) suggested that the Devil's Snare trap was intended for Neville, who is good at Herbology, as the chess was for Ron, the flying keys for Harry, and the logic puzzle for Hermione. IE, that Dumbledore expected them to take Neville with them rather than to leave him paralyzed on the common room floor. THE Barb wrote: << Neville was following the rules, trying to keep them in the common room, but his behavior was not moral, IMO. It was dangerous nitpicking that could have had disastrous results. (I'm still not convinced Dumbledore should have rewarded him for this.) >> It occured to me while typing the above comment to Becky, that maybe Dumbledore had to make up an excuse for giving Neville points that he had *planned* to give Neville for coping with the Devil's Snare. Maria wrote: << And as an extra bonus, we can have Ever So Evil Dennis Creevey, since without him DeathEater!Squid makes no sense. >> Does this assume some Dennis/Squid ship, in which the poor old squid follows its inamorato into evil? For the squid, it had been love at first sight, which is why it saved him from drowning.... Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: << The only one who really suffered there was Hermione, who became Cat Girl for a while. >> Becoming Cat Girl is a PRIVILEGE, not suffering. Silly unappreciative Hermione. Errol Owl wrote: << It makes no sense to play one player short, especially the seeker position, cause then Griffindor could never finish the match. They would never win even if they compiled a huge goal difference since they would be totally at the mercy of the other team to close the match. >> I have wondered if the Snitches for school matches are especially enchanted to get easier to catch as the time goes by, like after maybe 14 hours they fly right into the mouth of the nearest Seeker no matter how hard heesh tries to avoid it. Patricia wrote: << Some people have stated that wizards live twice as long as muggles. Others have suggested that wizards and witches live to be about 200. There is supposedly some interview evidence for this, though I haven't seen it myself. (I would love to see it, btw, if anyone can supply a link.) >> http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm Q: How old is old in the wizarding world, and how old are Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall? JKR: Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.) http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript.shtml Q: How old are Professor Dumbledore and Professor Snape? JKR: Dumbledore's about 150 years old... wizards have a longer life expectancy than us Muggles, Snape's 35 or 6. JKR's own drawing of McGonagall looking like she's 30 (with the black, not grey, hair mentioned in canon) in Muggle years is in the HPfGU Yahoo!Group Photo Section http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/lst , click on "Harry Potter and Me" which is the second folder, click on "dursleys" which is the fifth pic. THE Barb wrote: << in one of the schoolbooks, Quidditch Through the Ages, a letter is quoted that is supposed to be from a witch who couldn't vote for the Minister of Magic. (Something like, "If I had a vote, he would have lost mine." Forgive the paraphrase.) This implies that there was a time in wizarding society when women were disenfranchised. >> I personally believe that she was disenfranchised by a property requirement for voting, not by her gender. Anne Conda wrote: << any ideas what the 4 founders had in mind, when they named their school "Hogwarts"? It sounds so... so... dumbledory. >> I have a totally non-canonical theory that the mountain behind Hogwarts was named Hogmount or Mt. Hog (possibly as "Holy" mountain as Susan Fox-Davis suggested, or I prefer to think it was named after the Caledonian Boar, a non-famous relative of the Calydonian Boar -- Hogwarts thinks it has enough to do with swine that it has winged pigs on the gateposts of the front entrance) and the surrounding geographical features were named after the mountain: the lake was Hoglake, the Forbidden Forest was named Hogwood, the grassy and somewhat squishy area beside the lake was named Hogmead[ow], and the slightly higher and drier land was named Hogwald. (My dictionary defines "wald" as "1. a forested area, 2. an unforested area".) I feel that Godric was the leader of the Founders and he was going to call the school Hogwald School because that was where they put it, but Salazar whined that the proposed name included the initials of Helga and Godric, but not *his* initials ... or Rowena's, for that matter. When Helga got tired of listening to the men squabble, she said: "So call it Hogwarts, that includes all the initials." However, there is an JKR interview in which she said: "a friend said, `Remember we saw those lilies in Kew gardens (a garden in London.)' Apparently there are lilies there called Hogwarts. I'd forgotten!" http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0,1120,22-9966-0-2,00.html (thanks to the Goat Pad http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ for finding the interview.) Maybe those lilies were growing at the school location, and thus the name. Darrin wrote: << Draco, whose injuries were healed in a second, >> I have previously posted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/51894 "Please, what is the canon for the arm being painfree the same day it occurred? I believe that Draco was faking being still injured when he used it as an excuse to postpone the Slytherin-Gryffindor Quidditch match so that the Gryffs played Hufflepuff instead, but that was two months later - the injury was on the first day of classes and the match was after Halloween and the attack on the Fat Lady." There was a whole thread on this subject; maybe you can find it on the website with the post # I said. Ali wrote: << I do not believe that Harry's protection dies the minute he is away from the Dursleys. I do believe though that it becomes weaker. It would have been at its weakest at the end of the school year - which just happens to be when Voldemort struck in GoF; perhaps this is no coincidence. >> I think so, too. That would explain this bit at the end of GoF: "Ron told Harry about a meeting Mrs Weasley had had with Dumbledore before going home. <> Harry has to go back to the Dursleys to recharge the protective magic, and THEN he can go to the Weasleys. Echa Schneider wrote: << [Binns]'s doomed to stay at Hogwarts, teaching history until the day comes that he finally feels that he's taught a student something worthwhile and that the student really cared. >> If he bothered to notice, he has now DONE THAT: telling the kids about the Chamber of Secrets. Debbie wrote: << I, myself, will be surprised if it's sunny the day Harry takes the train. I'm expecting a thunderstorm. >> After the deluge in GoF, in OoP I'm expecting an early snowstorm. A totally unseasonable blizzard. Mecki wrote: << Hagrid is a half-giant -- Giantess-mother and wizard-father. My question: how does this work? >> Hey, Mecki, I thought you were around the last two times that this was answered with one phrase: Engorgement Spells. << Can you imagine a human woman and a giant man? >> Shrinking Spells? I think there *must* be a Shrinking Charm, even tho' the Shrinking Solution made in Potions class in PoA and tested on Trevor Toad made him younger as well as smaller: turned him into Trevor Tadpole. Engorgement Spells on the mother or Shrinking Spells on the fetus. Ersatz Harry wrote: << Do some of the DEs get together and decide when to conceive children, perhaps as a way to ensure sufficient concentration of their progeny at a given place and time? >> I have a Theory. That Voldemort read the stars like a centaur or heard a prophecy from someone more reliable than Trelawney ... anyway, he found out that a boy of great magical powers would be born around Lammas of 1980. He would rather have this child born on his side and raised to be loyal to him than have this child born on the other side, so at the approriate time he ordered all his Death Eaters to go out and spawn ... or perhaps it was Lucius who had the prediction and ordered his *particular* followers among the Death Eaters ... anyway, the special child was Harry and not one of the DE kids. Annemehr wrote: << No creativity neccessary. Dean Thomas was inserted in the Scholastic version; he his completely absent from the sorting account in the UK editions. So it was a Scholastic editor who couldn't count in this case! >> So the Bloomsbury editor made a DIFFERENT mistake: Dean Thomas is one of Harry's roommates in the UK edition, so he SHOULD have been Sorted in alphabetical order. Phyllis wrote: << Which suggests that Dumbledore's silver hair appeared somewhere between 100 and 137. (snip) "Unlike Dumbledore, Karkaroff looked much younger; his hair and goatee were black." Unfortunately, since we don't know Karkaroff's age, it's hard to deduce much from this other than the fact that he aged considerably in the past 13 years. >> Does wizards' hair turn silver because of being appointed Headmaster rather than because of aging? Squee Entwife wrote: << You know that game where if a bunch of kids are in sleeping bags or on a bed, one child yells "Steamroller!" and rolls over everyone else?!? What would you call it in the Wizarding World - seeing as how they have no steam rollers? >> I *don't* know that game, but would imagine that wizarding kids call it "Rolling Pins!" However, steam rollers were named after older human- or animal- powered rollers, like lawn rollers. Andrea Ra wrote: << I doubt the Chamber entrance was in a bathroom when Salazar made it all those years ago. They didn't even HAVE modern plumbing then. >> I believe that the wizarding folk had modern plumbing then, and had had it for some 9000 years already, even tho' Muggles didn't get around to copying it from them until the nineteenth century. Other than that, I agree with you abuot the basilisk. Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Odd that both Malfoy and Voldemort use eagle owls. >> Not odd at all: the Eurasian Eagle Owl is Bubo bubo, indicating that it is the most "classic" owl. It's very large and the one who says "hoo-woo". Presumably it's the most prestigious and expensive type of owl. Btw, the North American Eagle Owl, Bubo virginianus, is called Great Horned Owl. I learned from listie pengolodh_sc that in Norwegian, the Eurasian Eagle Owl is called Hubro (from its call?) and Horned Owl. Audra wrote: << Imagine Neville having to rip the guts out of all those toads that looked just like his Trevor. >> I am SURE that cruelty is what Snape INTENDED, but he and JKR got it wrong: he made Neville disembowel horny toads, and horny toads are neither toads like Trevor nor frogs: they are a kind of lizard. GoF, very beginning of Chapter 14: << Professor Snape, who seemed to have attained new levels of vindictiveness over the summer, gave Neville detention, and Neville returned from it in a state of nervous collapse, having been made to disembowel a barrelful of horned toads. "You know why Snape's in such a foul mood, don't you?" said Ron to Harry, as they watched Hermione teaching Neville a Scouring Charm to remove the frog guts from under his fingernails. >> Also in GoF, early in Chapter 19: << Ron hadn't spoken to him at all since he had told him about Snape's detentions. Harry had half hoped they would make things up during the two hours they were forced to pickle rats' brains in Snape's dungeon,>> Snape presumably chose pickling rats' brains as the chore for Ron (and Harry) on the assumption that it would be especially unpleasant for the owner of a pet rat, similar to Neville and toads above, but that suggests that he sincerely didn't believe that Scabbers was Pettigrew: he couldn't have thought that Ron would feel affectionate about Pettigrew! Tepmurt wrote: << I believe that James is from an old, rich wizarding family. >> JKR said so in an interview. I haven't been able to find that interview on the Goat Pad this evening (despite having seen it before), but it is cited in the Lexicon article on James Potter: "He inherited quite a fortune (AOL)." That means: http://www.kidsreads.com/harrypotter/chattranscript.html Jesse Kornbluth: Here's one from Tiger Lily: What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? J.K. Rowling: Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later. Ray Heuer wrote: << Anyone have any idea of who the Ravenclaw master is? >> Professor Flitwick is the Head of Ravenclaw and the Grey Lady is the Ravenclaw ghost. JKR said so in interviews long ago. This information is in the Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/houses.html created by Steve Vander Ark. Greicy wrote: << How many Prefects are there to each House? I only hear of Percy being the Prefect of Gryffindor when he was in school and Cedric in GoF for Hufflepuff. So if Harry becomes a Prefect where does that leave Hermione. Hermione *has* to be Prefect she is the smartest in her class. >> I believe that Hogwarts has one boy and one girl Prefect for each House for each year of fith, sixth, seventh (Head Boy and Head Girl are Prefects). However, some listies have said that any reasonable school would want to have more Prefects to do the work (enforcing discipline). From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 18 05:05:25 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 05:05:25 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts // Last of the Potters In-Reply-To: <20030505011256.61582.qmail@web21210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58093 "...ready to strike the moment he could be sure of allies ... to deliver the last Potter to them. If he gave them Harry, who'd dare to say he'd betrayed Lord Voldemort? He'd be welcomed back with honors..." PoA page 272 of UK paperback, apparently 1999. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ladi lyndi wrote: > 1. Now that Percy is working, is he paying his > parents room and board? I suspect that Arthur and Molly would rather he saved his money. So as to have enough savings to get married and give them grandchildren. > 2. At what age do wizards move out from mummy > and daddy's and get their own place? I imagine that it varies tremendously. For example, I imagine Malfoy Manor as so huge a place that several generations of Malfoys could all be living there, raising families there, in apartments of their own, all at that same time. > > 3. Are there special wizard realtors or do > wizards have to deal with Muggle realtors when > they want to buy a house? > I imagine there are wizard realtors (they'd be 'estate agents' in Britain, and even in USA 'realtor' is a trade-marked word) to help wizarding folk buy and sell wizarding houses, but wizard folk who wanted to buy a Muggle house, or buy Muggle land to build a wizarding house, would have to deal with Muggle estate agents, and Muggle government entities. However, all the Muggles could be put under Confundus Charms and Memory Charms. > 4. Why didn't Bill, Charlie or Mr. Weasley lend > Ron their dress robes for the Yule Ball? Even a > bit big, it would have been better than what Ron > had to wear. I'm assuming Fred and George were > wearing Bill and Charlie's old ones. As someone already said, there is no reason to assume that Bill or Charlie HAVE dress robes -- there was no Yule Ball when they were in school and we have not heard of any other reason why Hogwarts kids would need dress robes. Bill might well have a set of dress robes for job-related "social" events (he works for a bank) but Charlie seems to be some combination of dragon wrangler and starving grad student, no obvious need for dress robes. Mr Weasley's dress robes probably are as worn out as his day robes. PERCY might have brand-new dress robes, bought with his first several paychecks... Bill, Percy, and Ron as built tall and skinny like Arthur, and Charlie and Fred and George are built wide and strong, so I would have assumed that Bill's and Arthur's and Percy's robes would fit Ron but not the twins, and Charlie's robes, if he had any, would fit the twins but not Ron ... I don't know the twins dealt with the dress robes situation, other than they aren't as self-conscious as Ron. Maybe Molly was able to find less horrible second-hand robes in their sizes, maybe she found them equally horrible robes but they were able to improve them better (due to being more advanced in magic or due to being willing to ask for help). Or, inspired by your suggestion, maybe they were able to wear Bill's and Percy's robes, somehow Charmed to fit. BTW, I AM AN IDIOT, I only noticed two days ago that Most Charming Smile has a double meaning! > 5. Why do the Weasleys keep buying the textbooks > second hand when the older kids could just pass > down their books? I assume that the some of the textbooks are the kind that one wants to keep as reference books throughout one's schooling and possibly into one's adult career -- here in Muggledom, I have madly obsolete over 20 year old COBOL text books that I keep at my desk at work! > 10. Why did Lucius Malfoy have no choice but to > leave when Dooby told him too? Is an elves > finger the equivalent of a wizard's wand? I think Dobby's pointed finger was simply a threat to do more than what he had just done: "There was a loud bang, and Mr Malfoy was thrown backwards. He crashed down the stairs three at a time, landing in a crumpled heap on the landing below." You may be right that a House Elf's finger is the equivalent of a wand, but then I would have expected some mention of Dobby's finger when his spell threw Lucius down. The phrase "Lucius had no choice" means to me that he had no USEFUL choice: he could stay and throw fireballs or Cruciatis at Harry and Dobby, but only at the risk of Dobby throwing even bigger fireballs back at him, or Dumbledore, with other witnesses (it was a public space), testifying to the MoM that he had performed an Unforgiveable Curse. > 11. Was Harry able to throw off the Imperious > Curse put on him by Voldemort so easily because > they are connected by the curse that failed? > Because, as Dumbledore has surmised, Voldemort > transferred some of himself to Harry? My theory on that is that Harry was able to throw off the Imperius Curse because Lily was helping him: that was her voice telling him not to obey. Here comes my usual rant: If Dumbledore knew just how badly the Dursleys would treat Harry, it was foolish or desperate of him to leave Harry there, or wizards' psychology is different from that of Muggles, dogs, and cats. The kinds of beings that I know about, bring them up in constant abuse and no example of goodness, and they grow up either broken terrified cowards who'll do anything to (something like Pettigrew in GoF) or cynical tough guys who'll do anything to triumph (something like Tom Riddle). Neither is good preparation for being a hero to rescue the wizarding world. I think Lily was able, with her magic, to put an image of herself in her baby's mind, that would be like an 'imaginary mum' (by analogy with 'imaginary friend') who would cuddle Harry and tell him that he's a good kid who doesn't deserve Dursley abuse and tell him about how decent people behave, thus being that one caring adult ("example of goodness" in previous paragraph) said to be necessary to even a 'resilient' child's survival of serious abuse... I kind of think Lily used her last magic to put this image in his head intentionally, instead of using her last magic in one last attempt to escape Voldemort. That is the heroic self-sacrifce that canon credits her, accepting her own death because it was more important to her to give this protection (from abusive Dursleys) of her love. I don't know why she would do that if she really believed that he would be dead seconds after she was, so I am left sympathetic to the theories that Harry survived AK because of some magic that had been done on him (presumably by Lily) or that he had been born with. When Harry resisted the Imperius Curse, the Curse's Moody-voice in his head told him to jump up on the desk, and "another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid to do, really, said the voice." I believe that that other voice is what's left of the image-Lily after all these years; she doesn't appear often, she appears as Harry's voice instead of her own, but she still is caring for Harry -- and still has free will. In addition, so far we've always seen Harry wondering and trying to find out about his father, and not about his mother. Some say that's a plot device because JKR is saving some big surprise about Lily, and some say it's normal because Harry is 11 to 14 so far, puberty and adolescence, and much more concerned about a male image to identify with. But *I* say that he doesn't search so much for Lily because, unknown to himself, he already has her with him. > > 16. Why does Snape have an apparent phobia about > washing his hair? > Maybe he doesn't have a phobia about washing his hair. Maybe he washes it all the time, but it's greasey by nature. Or gets greasey each day spent leaning over fuming cauldrons in the Potions dungeon. > 18. Why would there still be a wizarding > contract for Harry if he didn't put his name into > the Goblet of Fire? Apparently the Goblet of Fire doesn't care whether or not the person consented to their name being entered, it puts a contract on them anyway. There is no reason why magic would have to obey modern law of contracts ... and I imagine that what makes the magical contract "binding" is that it magically makes very bad things happen to the person who breaks it. Dumbledore saying that Harry had to participate in the Tournament due to a "binding magical contract" meant, in my opinion, that even worse things would happen to him if he didn't participate than if he did. From editor at texas.net Sun May 18 05:48:38 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 00:48:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves References: Message-ID: <002701c31d01$227a0260$9d04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58094 > Andrea: > > > > Remember in COS when the Weasley boys are explaining house elves to > Harry, > > they say something about "they come with old manor houses" or something > > like that. (Sorry, in the middle of a move and all my books are packed > > up!) This implies that they ARE in some way bound to the structure, or at > > least to the *owners* of the structure. Perhaps if the Crouches had > > moved, they'd had to have either left Winky behind for the new owners or > > made special arrangements with them to take her with them. > > Darrin: > > I'm at work and away from the books, but I seem to remember the line being > more along the lines of "found in" rather than "come with." > > But another point. If the loyalty is not so much to the family, then why couldn't > Winky just give her loyalty to someone else? AAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH! It's happening again! I posted on this very point on the 16th, in this very thread! Nobody reads my posts! Everybody hates me! *pant, pant* sorry. (gets grip) Winky *should* have been able to give her loyalty to her new family. That was my point, that she is far more atypical than Dobby, in that she cannot and will not let go even when the binding spell is broken and presumably a new one enacted. As for why? I think she got far more involved on a personal level with Barty Jr. than house-elves usually do, by nature of her role as his guardian. I don't think elves usually do this; it's an order of magnitude away from keeping the beds made or the fires lit, and I think it had a lasting effect on her. She cannot dissociate herself from the Crouches, even when the magical bond has been broken. And Dobby himself calls it "the house-elf's enslavement" in CoS, the first time we meet him in Harry's bedroom (sorry, Darrin, no chapter and verse, I don't have my book with me). It seems a "magically binding contract," to lift a description from GoF, which has certain strict parameters, including how to break it. We don't know most of the rest of the parameters. And, for all of you who missed my earlier post *sigh*, I think location is a major factor in the binding. I believe elves are bound to the place first and foremost, and the people who own the place secondarily (which makes Winky even *more* atypical). That's probably why there's a House Elf Relocation Office at all; suitable sites owned by wizarding families are probably not thick on the ground. And for the record, I assumed Dobby went through this Office to obtain his new placement, but I have no canon whatsoever for that. But if JKR bothered to mention the Office, it's bound to have some function. I also assume it is Dumbledore to whom Dobby is now bound, since Dobby is now proud to keep Dumbledore's secrets instead of Malfoy's, and it was Dumbledore that Dobby was daring enough to repeat "barmy old codger" about, and Dumbledore with whom Dobby talked salary and leave time, not to mention Dumbledore who is the head of the "family" at the new location. Anyway. Going to bed now. Darrin, you *should* make a list. ~Amandageist, who can't think of any cool band names at this hour From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 18 06:29:04 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 06:29:04 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: <002701c31d01$227a0260$9d04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Nobody reads my posts! Everybody hates me! *I* read your posts. > Winky *should* have been able to give her loyalty to her new > family. That was my point, that she is far more atypical than > Dobby, in that she cannot and will not let go even when the binding > spell is broken and presumably a new one enacted. > > As for why? I think she got far more involved on a personal level > with Barty Jr. than house-elves usually do, by nature of her role > as his guardian. To me, your description of Winky's atypicality sounds like ... the first time I almost expected you to follow "I think it probably is because she had a much closer relationship with" by boarding the Winky/BartySr ship. From tracer327 at hotmail.com Sat May 17 20:24:45 2003 From: tracer327 at hotmail.com (Tracy Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 20:24:45 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > Ok, was over at TLC looking at all the pictures they recently posted, > and in particular the back cover of the special edition. > > For those who haven't seen it, it shows what looks like the wing of > an owl flying by an old, boarded up house. > > And I have two thoughts on what that house might be: > > The Shrieking Shack or the Riddle house. ME: Total newbie here. In looking through the chapter pictures to speculate about the promotional stand picture, I found the one of the Shreiking Shack (POA, Chapter 19, "The Servant of Lord Voldemort"), Assuming any kind of pictoral continuity, the OOP cover can't be the Shrieking Shack. I can't say I have much of a clue what this place really is, but my guess is that the front door is the one on the spine...don't know who that is in the upper window though. 34 days.... Tracy From jennyemike3 at cox.net Sun May 18 00:13:46 2003 From: jennyemike3 at cox.net (Jennye) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:13:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: <20030517212707.69427.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c31cd2$598145e0$0300a8c0@jennye> No: HPFGUIDX 58097 On page 332 of the paperback CoS is where the conversation between Harry and DD is. DD says, "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," says Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort - who *is* the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue." BTW, is there a typo in this quote? It says he is the *ancestor* of Salazar Slytherin. Wouldn't he be the descendant? "Jennye" From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun May 18 02:22:23 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 21:22:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Aging References: Message-ID: <3EC6EE5F.70708@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58098 I think what people are forgetting, is the magic. It may not be that wizards live longer JUST because they are wizards. It may be there are various magical ways to slow aging not normally available to muggles. Might be the magical means of slowing aging are used by wizards or witches who have muggle mates to extend their mate's life spans as well. If a potion can be made that stops aging, then certainly there must be others that don't stop it, but slow it down. Aging in the WW is also effected by other factors.. Time travel for example or spells that age people, either purposely or as a side effect. "jazmyn" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 18 07:07:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:07:02 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: <20030517212707.69427.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58099 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > > Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" > wrote: > > > Steve wrote: > > > > What are the odds that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is not the true > > > > Heir of Slytherin but the self-proclaimed Heir of Slytherin. > > > > ME: No question he is the Heir of Slytherin. Dumbledore himself > > said he was in CoS. ...edited... > > > > Huggs Becky > > > > bboy_mn: > > Could you narrow down that CoS reference a bit. I'm not doubting > you, just drawing a blank on what part of the book it might be in. > > bboy_mn > > > ME: I don't have the book in front of me, alas but it's at the end when Dumbledore mentioned to Harry that he could speak Parseltongue because Lord Voldemort, who IS the last remaining heir of Syltherine could speak Parseltongue. .... Huggs Becky > bboy_mn: Ahhhh yes... I found it. This is the infamous ancestor/decendant line. After Harry says that the Sorting Hat said he, Harry, should be in Slytherin, Dumbledore replys, "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry, because Lord Voldemort -- who /is/ the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak parseltongue. ...." In the actual text/cannon the word /is/ is in italics. We can only assume that 'ancestor' should have been 'decendant'. JKR acknowledged this, but did it in kind of an off-hand way that made it unclear whether she was being truthful or evasive. How can a family line that has existed for over a 1,000 years die out? There are no sons of the sons of my father, so my direct family line could die out, but my father's brothers have lots of sons. So the direct family line of my father's father continues. (Did that make sense?) For this to happen to then Voldemort/Riddle/Slytherin's family, each generation must have had very very few children in order to keep the family tree from spreading. Either that or several generation had only female children, so the decendancy continued but the Slytherin family name die out long ago. I think the use of the word 'Heir' is kind of used as a generalization by us in discussion. However, the chaper in which Harry meets Riddle in the Chamber is titled "The Heir of Slytherin". Riddle also says- "I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side?" [That's not a typo, this sentence, show complete, ends in a quesion mark. How odd.] "Let's match the powers of Lord Voldemort, Heir of Salazar Slytherin, against famous Harry Potter, ...." I still question Tom Riddle's belief, but it is much harder to question Dumbledore's. The only thing I can come up with, is that JKR is drilling this into our minds, only to shoot it down later. As others have pointed out, given double lifetimes and double fertile child bearing years of wizards and witches, it would seem reasonable that all families are somewhat large thereby creating many decendants. I will point out, based on previous discussions in this group, that there are 3,000 documented heirs to the British throne. If 2,999 of them die, all they have to do is look up the name of number 3,000 on the list and give him a call. If all 3,000 die, there are still many many more decendants of the royal families, and it would just take a little more work to track one of them down. For reference, in the last (approx) 1,000 years of English History, there have been 10 different family names in control of the Monarchy. Just a few random thoughts that really don't settle anything. bboy_mn From PurpleBear1976 at aol.com Sun May 18 05:42:49 2003 From: PurpleBear1976 at aol.com (harmonyweasley4ever) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 05:42:49 -0000 Subject: Cedric Diggory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58100 All right, I'm a little confused............in GoF it says that those who wanted to enter their names for the tournament had to be at least 17......wouldn't that put them in their last year at Hogwarts? In PoA there's a passage that says(American version), Cedric is, in that book, a 5th year. How did he seem to skip a year? "harmonyweasley4ever" From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 18 07:21:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:21:53 -0000 Subject: The Last Potter!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > ...edited... > Dumbledore tells Professor McGonagall ... "I've come to bring Harry > to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left." > > Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that not only all the Potters > are dead, but all the Evans' are dead also? ..edited... > > I am sure this has been brought up, but up till now, I have not seen > it mentioned. > > Thanks for your time; > Fred Waldrop bboy_mn: As this conversation goes on we discover that not only are all the Potters dead, and nearly all the Evans, but also, is would seem, all the Riddles, and all the Crouchs, and it look as if all the Slytherins are also gone. Since Voldemort is the last decendant of Slytherin, all Slytherins by name, and all Slytherins by marriage, and all other combinations of Slytherin blood are dead. Would seem to imply that the complete blood lines of many old wizarding families are hanging by a thread. Just a thought. bboy_mn From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 07:22:00 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 00:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cedric Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030518072200.43454.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58102 --- harmonyweasley4ever wrote: > All right, I'm a little confused............in GoF it says that those > who wanted to enter their names for the tournament had to be at least > 17......wouldn't that put them in their last year at Hogwarts? In PoA > there's a passage that says(American version), Cedric is, in that > book, a 5th year. How did he seem to skip a year? Depending on when their birthdays are, Hogwarts students would turn 17 at some point during their 6th year or that summer. In fact, Dumbledore specifically mentions "sixth and seventh years" as being able to handle the tournament, and the only other Hogwarts person we know of entering was Angelina Johnson, also a 6th year who had only recently turned 17. Andrea __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 18 07:36:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:36:30 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: <20030518003032.19266.qmail@web10910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrea wrote: > ...edited previous post... > > Remember in COS when the Weasley boys are explaining house elves to Harry, > they say something about "they come with old manor houses" or > something like that. This implies that they ARE in some way bound to > the structure, ... > > > Andrea bboy_mn: House: also refers to 1b.) A household or family. (American Heritage third edition copyright 1994) What George says is, "House-elves come with big old manors and castles and places like that...". But those are also the kind of places where you find sevants in general. So I don't know if we can take this quote literally. I really think he is saying that only rich people are likely to have servants/elves. It's not as easy as having gnomes or ghouls in the attic. Just a thought. bboy_mn From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 18 08:15:24 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 08:15:24 -0000 Subject: Prefect Clarification, I'm confused (was: Re: All Quidditch teams need new Capt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58104 I think harry will be quidditch captain, i dont however think he will become prefect. Can you imagine the grilling that Fred and George would give him and Ron for that matter, I think he would much rather not have the hassle that must go with the territory. Also if the assumptions are right that there is one prefect per house, he would most definatly step aside and let Hermione take the position (he would know how much it would mean to her). whilst writing this post another thought struck me, if Harry does indeed inherit the captaincy how do you think he would cope with having to train and motivate the team? I think he would lead more by example rather thans woods unmatchable enthusiasm. kind of like the way David Beckham leads England. thoughts????? lee From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 09:56:59 2003 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:56:59 -0000 Subject: Cedric Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58105 Well, there has been a debate before concerning age and hogwarts acceptance- whether you must be eleven by sept 1 or just turning 11 or whatever. we know the twins are in their sixth year in book 4 and their birthday is in the spring-meaning they turn 17 during their 6th year- it could easily be a similar case with cedric- he probably turned 17 during his 6th year. just my explanation... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harmonyweasley4ever" wrote: > All right, I'm a little confused............in GoF it says that those > who wanted to enter their names for the tournament had to be at least > 17......wouldn't that put them in their last year at Hogwarts? In PoA > there's a passage that says(American version), Cedric is, in that > book, a 5th year. How did he seem to skip a year? > > "harmonyweasley4ever" From emeleel at juno.com Sun May 18 00:58:09 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:58:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves Message-ID: <20030518.080014.-779041.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58106 On Sun, 18 May 2003 00:36:33 -0000 "darrin_burnett" writes: > Andrea: > > > > Remember in COS when the Weasley boys are explaining house elves to > Harry, they say something about "they come with old manor houses" or something > > like that. (Sorry, in the middle of a move and all my books are packed > > up!) This implies that they ARE in some way bound to the structure, or at > > least to the *owners* of the structure. Perhaps if the Crouches had > > moved, they'd had to have either left Winky behind for the new owners or > > made special arrangements with them to take her with them. > > > > Darrin says: > I'm at work and away from the books, but I seem to remember the line > being more along the lines of "found in" rather than "come with." Even if the line is "come with", I would still read that as along the same lines as "old Muggle manor houses come with butlers and maids". Muggle butlers and maids are not by any means bound to the *house* in which they serve, but instead to the family (not magically, but you know what I mean) - which should, hopefully, always be rich enough to afford that pretty manor house. (I guess I'll be the rotten basilisk egg, I'm not lookin' it up! LOL) Melanie ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 18 13:12:22 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 08:12:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? References: Message-ID: <000a01c31d3f$1f1c2830$64ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58107 > bboy_mn: > > How can a family line that has existed for over a 1,000 years die out? > This quote from CoS comes to my mind. "Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." (p. 116 US hardcover) I saw someone mention that maybe a lot of wizarding lines are hanging on by a thread. This quote would seem to support that. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From prongs at marauders-map.net Sun May 18 13:43:06 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:43:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort References: <8.37b9e763.2bf8529e@aol.com> Message-ID: <009001c31d43$69a45ea0$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 58108 Ray: > Just as children know that Elmer Fudd lusting after Bugs Bunny in a dress and lipstick is funny without knowing quite why, Lily's unspoken offer to Voldemort is for the adults who know "the secret". I agree that she could never make the offer explicitly in a children's book, but the fact us, she didn't. Likewise, she didn't say "kill me instead", she said, "take me instead". Actually, she does say "Kill me instead" I get this from Ch. 9. "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --" Silver Stag From meboriqua at aol.com Sun May 18 13:54:09 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:54:09 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: <20030518.080014.-779041.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > Even if the line is "come with", I would still read that as along the same lines as "old Muggle manor houses come with butlers and maids". Muggle butlers and maids are not by any means bound to the *house* in which they serve, but instead to the family (not magically, but you know what I mean) - which should, hopefully, always be rich enough to afford that pretty manor house.> Hmmmm... maybe things are different in the WW when it comes to real estate. How often throughout the series has "old wizard family" been mentioned? Just recently there was quite a discussion here about purebloods, muggle borns, etc. Wizards and witches seem keenly aware of their lineage, maybe even more so than we are. It is possible that property is as much a part of their lineage as their names, and they consider ownership of things on their property that we might not, house elves included. One thing I'd like to add about house elves is that they *believe* they have a certain position in WW society. I like Amanda's theory that Winky is as unsual a house elf as Dobby is (yes, Amanda, I always read your posts) as she is so completely unwilling to accept new owners. Perhaps part of the magical binding contracts of house elves is that they are mentally as well as physically bound to their positions. Dobby might be similar to Harry in that, like Harry was able to throw off Imperius, Dobby was able to throw off believing that he could never leave the Malfoys. House elves, as we all know, are quite similar to real slavery situations throughout history. Here in the US, many slaves stayed on with their previous owners after they were allowed to leave and there are many documented examples of slaves choosing to betray one another in favor of their owners, or encouraging their children to not speak of freedom, and so on. Aside from fear of punishment, what else did they think was out there for them? It seems to me that house elves feel the same way, whether through a spell or simply from so many years of servitude. They feel they have no identity without a master, and to me, this is the real tragedy of their situation. --jenny from ravenclaw ***************** From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 18 14:17:56 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 16:17:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? References: <002f01c31cd8$65775960$f993253e@takun> <028d01c31cda$9cdbe1d0$5a9ccdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: <002b01c31d48$483094a0$8e91253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58110 Izaskun (me) wrote: > By the way, this afternoon, looking again at the cover I saw something very > peculiar. In the picture, Harry is standing in the middle of a circular room, > candles floating in mid-air and three doors ajar. Well, I swear I saw like the > shadow of what looks like a woman in the treshold of the first door on the > left. I could perfectly see the face and long wavy hair. Can anyone else see it > or I'm starting to be slightly delusional?? Richelle answered: Hmm, I hadn't even noticed that until you mentioned it. However, if I zoomed in about 1000% (pathetic, I know) it becomes a lot more noticeable. But I don't think it's a woman, it looks more like a dementor. If you look closely you can see what looks more like a scull than a face, and the darker part you described as wavy hair could be the cloak of the dementor. Izaskun again: Well, if it is indeed a dementor, the place might be Azkaban. Wow. Imagine that! I still think it looks more like a woman, or the shadow of a woman, but anyway, I'm happy i'm not the only one who's desperately trying to see more than meets the eye. LOL. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 18 15:02:04 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 18 May 2003 15:02:04 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1053270124.29.27536.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58111 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 18, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From mpe at anacon.freeserve.co.uk Sat May 17 12:32:56 2003 From: mpe at anacon.freeserve.co.uk (hydrxuk) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:32:56 -0000 Subject: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 In-Reply-To: <39.38a5f9a7.2bf72740@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at a... wrote: > Also, given the potential problems that Rita Skeeter's articles have > introduced, Harry may not be the best choice politically... > Not that Rita is likely to be writing any more articles that have anything to do with Hogwarts. If she does her secret will come out. Hydrxuk From mpe at anacon.freeserve.co.uk Sat May 17 12:48:46 2003 From: mpe at anacon.freeserve.co.uk (hydrxuk) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:48:46 -0000 Subject: Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts In-Reply-To: <002101c31c30$a4eb5540$6e04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > If I am correct, when a family frees an elf, what they are doing is > banishing it from its location, and another one must be found. Dobby has > changed his master with his location (although, as we have seen, old habits > die hard), and is loyal to Dumbledore--the "family" that came with his new > location. His atypicality is that he wants paying. Though he wants a lower wage that Dumbledore is prepared to pay him. The implication here is that if the Hogwarts elves wanted to be treated as employees there really isn't too much of a problem. Hydrxuk From jennivirides at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 18 11:02:37 2003 From: jennivirides at yahoo.co.uk (jennivirides) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:02:37 -0000 Subject: The sorting of Dean Thomas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58114 Annemehr wrote: << No creativity neccessary. Dean Thomas was inserted in the Scholastic version; he his completely absent from the sorting account in the UK editions. So it was a Scholastic editor who couldn't count in this case! >> Catlady replied: Delurking to say that actually it isn't a mistake in the Bloomsbury edition. In that edition, after Harry's own sorting he walks to the Gryffindor table, sits down, and starts observing the teachers. ("Harry sat down opposite the ghost in the ruff...He could see the High Table properly now. At the end nearest him sat Hagrid...in the centre...sat Albus Dumbledore...Harry spotted Professor Quirrell, too..."etc.) It's not stated directly, but the implication is that more people are being sorted while he's doing this. After all of this is the quote in question, "there were only three people left to be sorted" (Lisa Turpin, Ron, and Blaise Zabini). The Scolastic edition would be fine if only the the editor had inserted Dean before that quote, or changed the three to a four. Re-lurking now. Dessie, who didn't want the hardworking Bloomsbury editors to be thought badly of (yes, I know that's terrible grammar). From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Sun May 18 13:05:13 2003 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:05:13 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58115 Have you thought of the possibility that Snape might be a dhampire? Dhampires are born from the union between a vampire and a human woman. (This can only happen during the day of Halloween, because vampires are usually sterile and regain their "capacities" on that day only.) Dhampires are usually pale and black-haired and they can stand sunlight for several hours. They often possess some typical vampire- powers. And the best thing: They are famous for being vampire-hunters! Due to their intimate knowledge of vampires and their supernatural abilities, they are very efficient in detecting and destroying their vampiric families. Don't you see the parallels of Snape fighting against Voldemort? Florentine Maier From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 15:29:33 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:29:33 -0000 Subject: A new member's defence of Ron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58116 Hi I have been lurking on this list for over a year and just gathered up courage to post my first mail. (yes, the HBF can be *quite* intimidating ). There have been many discussions regarding Ron in the past. I just wanted to add my two bits Jealous!Ron: There has been a lot of speculation that Ron's desire for wealth will lure him to the dark side. IMHO Ron wants to be rich (who doesn't) but there are things he values far more than money. His self respect for one. We have seen he doesn't like being beholden for the smallest thing. Even to his best friend. Reference, the QWC: He gathers up all the Leprachaun gold he can find and gives it to Harry in return for the omnioculars. He doesn't calculate the exact amount and keep the rest for himself. He chooses to be poor rather than beholden. Does that gel with what we know of Voldmort's followers? I think not Imperiod!Ron: Another speculation is that Ron, being susceptible to the Imperius curse, may be used as a pawn by the Dark Side. Well, for one, I agree with the people who have pointed out, that out of the entire class only Harry was successful in fighting off this curse. In fact Harry may be the only one in the entire WW (as far as we have seen) who can do that. Even powerful wizards like Crouch Sr. are susceptible to it at the first go, building up resistance gradually. Also, I would think that resisting the Imperius is a matter of will power. And we have already seen at least one example of Ron's strength of will. In being able to resist the seductive lure of the Mirror of Erised, which Harry could not. Did I hear someone say that the longing to see your dead parents is more compelling than the longing to see yourself as Head Boy? I beg to differ, the Mirror shows each one his or her deepest desire, so it was as hard for Ron to resist that vision of glory as it was for Harry to resist seeing his loving family. Ron overcame the temptation, Harry did not. (At least not as soon ). I believe he will find the strength to resist Imperius when it really matters. Prejudiced!Ron: `Get away from me werewolf' 'giants aren't nice'. Ron's comments have been discussed at length, my take on this is: For that one, brief moment in the Shrieking Shck, Ron is revolted by Lupin. But the way I read it, the revulsion is not due to Lupin being a werewolf, but to him being a traitor. Ron reacts to the fact that Lupin is in league with Black and has conspired to trap and kill his best friend. So he seizes at the nastiest, most hurtful insult and flings it at Lupin. However, once he realizes the truth he is fine. How many of Lupin's students (and I am not even counting the Slytherins) would allow Lupin to touch them once they find out his werewolf status? Not many I think. Ron not only allows the werewolf to bind up his broken leg, but also smiles and thanks him. He then volunteers to be handcuffed to him in order to lead Peter out safely. That is prejudice? As for Hagrid, Ron is the one who says: 'Well no one who knows him will care `cos they'll know he's not dangerous' The way I read it, Ron believes that one should take a person on his or her own merit. That is, giants may be known to be viscous but if he finds one to be gentle and friendly (like Hagrid) he will trust him. Of course, he may not trust an unknown giant, but that IMHO, is prudence rather than prejudice. Well, that's all for the first post, hopes it makes it to the list Glad to be here Shaggy, from Karachi, who envies everyone who can get their hands on OoP on the very first day. From ratchick22 at hotmail.com Sun May 18 16:51:06 2003 From: ratchick22 at hotmail.com (hermohninny) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 16:51:06 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_The_Catalyst_to_Riddle=92s_Motivation_(was:_Riddle's_family)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kenney" wrote: > > Now here's the crunch. We find out why all along Voldemort wants to > kill off Harry: He is Voldemort's Last Living Relative. When he kills > Harry, he effectively extracts the ultimate revenge for the crime his > parents committed (in his eyes) > > Hey, it also could mean Harry has a living relative: and Uncle! > > > From the Key of Kenney now me: While I am also convinced that Harry and Tom Riddle are somehow related (not necesarily in that manner), I don't think Voldie's sole motivation for murdering Harry would be revenge. I'd be crushed if it was anything that simple after all the build-up. Remember that Voldie did not plan on killing Lily and therefore he was after the Potter bloodline specifically. There is also that whole prophecy business that Firenze brings up in PS but doesn't go into. Personally, I think the whole shabang will be revealed in OoP, Tom's reason for going after Harry in the first place being the thing that Dumbledore "should have told him long ago." dina From emeleel at juno.com Sun May 18 17:13:03 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:13:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Many Replies to 2 Weeks' Posts, please scroll down to find *YOUR* NAME!! Message-ID: <20030518.121306.-779041.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58118 On Sun, 18 May 2003 03:59:54 -0000 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" writes: > Some brilliantly insightful listie (but I don't remember which one) > suggested that the Devil's Snare trap was intended for Neville, who > is good at Herbology, as the chess was for Ron, the flying keys for > Harry, and the logic puzzle for Hermione. IE, that Dumbledore > expected them to take Neville with them rather than to leave him > paralyzed on the common room floor. Hmmm, that's an interesting take. But, then, who was the troll for? Marcus Flint or some of his giant Quidditch cronies? > Ali wrote: > > << I do not believe that Harry's protection dies the minute he is > away from the Dursleys. I do believe though that it becomes weaker. > It would have been at its weakest at the end of the school year - > which just happens to be when Voldemort struck in GoF; perhaps this > is no coincidence. >> To which CatLady wrote: > I think so, too. That would explain this bit at the end of GoF: "Ron > told Harry about a meeting Mrs Weasley had had with Dumbledore > before > going home. < this summer," he said. "But he wants you to go back to the Dursleys, > > at least at first." "Why?" said Harry. "She said Dumbledore's got > his reasons," said Ron,>> Harry has to go back to the Dursleys to > recharge the protective magic, and THEN he can go to the Weasleys. I've always assumed that Dumbledore needed Harry to go on to the Dursley's because he already has protections in place for him there, DD has nothing set up at the Weasleys. The first time Harry went to the Burrow, it was not with DD's blessing, but he must not have thought the danger very great or he wouldn't have allowed Harry to spend 2 weeks there without protections. In GoF, I think Harry was only there a couple of days, and again, DD would have no reason to suspect real danger, despite the DE's and the Dark Mark at the World Cup. Now that Voldemort has risen again, though, DD's not about to let Harry go off to spend time anywhere that he is not protected. That was my take on it, anyway. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 17:15:57 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: <000a01c31d3f$1f1c2830$64ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030518171557.98870.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58119 > bboy_mn: > > How can a family line that has existed for over a 1,000 years die out? > This quote from CoS comes to my mind. "Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." (p. 116 US hardcover) I saw someone mention that maybe a lot of wizarding lines are hanging on by a thread. This quote would seem to support that. Kelly Grosskreutz Me: I think so too. You can't compare them to muggle geneologies. Another example, unless I'm mistaken. I am too lazy to verify this) is that with the death of Barty Crouch, another old wizarding family line died out. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun May 18 17:07:49 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:07:49 -0500 Subject: House elves and WW ethics References: Message-ID: <3EC7BDE5.9020001@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58120 Some things we may be failing to see in this... Wizards do not consider house elves to be humans, thus they could very well feel they are possessions, such as livestock or pets. Yes, even slaves. The more evil types, such as the DEs likely consider muggles as 'animals' too. If it were not for the MoM, muggles would be in constant danger from members of the WW who don't share muggle views on slavery or treatment of sentient creatures. Yes, its not politically correct by muggle standards to keep intelligent creatures as pets, slaves or even as livestock, which is why Hermione is more shocked then those raised in the WW. However, even muggles cannot be held to their own ideals of treatment of sentient creatures. If a sphinx landed in a small town, asking for directions, the cops would likely still shoot it. Panicky humans are not rational humans. If muggles knew about the WW, how would they decide what are animals and what are 'people'? As for house elves. they appear to be either breed or created by magic originally as servants, possibly with the loyalty and slavish attitude built in, which is why they are so happy being slaves and so unwilling to leave this state. Its against their nature to not be slaves, thus creating horrible conflict within them when this is challenged. (i.e. Dobby wants to do the right thing, but his programing is creating conflict, thus he punishes himself) One also wonders about postal owls. They are clearly not normal owls, being as they appear to have human level intelligence, yet deliver mail with no other pay then a treat. Like a dog fetching the paper. Are they slaves or taken for granted because they don't look as humanoid as a house elf? Are they just really smart pets? They do appear to be better treated then house elves on the surface, which might be why Hermione doesn't start a 'free the postal owls' movement. Something to note.. We should not pretend that the WW is a happy little place, whose people are superior to humans in every way. They can be just as evil as muggles.. even more so as 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'. Making non-humans into slaves, cutting up what we might see as intelligent or rare creatures for potion components or as foodstuffs, turning fellow humans into toads or experimenting on house pets could be quite normal for them, even if it might shock most muggles. However, magic can often repair the damage to some of the above, so it may not be seen as a problem. Magic can make happy slaves and turn toads back into humans. Clearly even their government is as messed up as any other. Seeing as they don't even know what their Dept. of Mysteries does and that they have rules that are silly or unenforceable as some laws we muggles have. Their Aurors have not been able to get rid of Voldemort, so its not likely they have ways to trace what people are doing what magic and where at all times. Yeah, they detected magic at the Dursley's, but its possible there were monitoring spells placed at the Dursley's house and not some general 'map' showing who is doing what like some giant Marauder's Map of Magic. The MoM doesn't likely have enough Aurors to police everyone anyways. There is the possibility that students have something planted on them, like in their house badges, that reports magic use within a certain distance, maybe 100 meters or some such, but doesn't report who did the magic, just that it was done. Until we find out how they knew about the magic use, we can only guess. It could very well be that only Harry was being monitored due to the fact that he is in danger from DE retribution . Jazmyn From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 17:54:54 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:54:54 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: <20030518171557.98870.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58121 --- Becky Walkden wrote: > I think so too. You can't compare them to muggle geneologies. Another > example, unless I'm mistaken. I am too lazy to verify this) is that > with the death of Barty Crouch, another old wizarding family line died > out. Huggs Becky I'm confused about why everyone says this. Was there some reference to Barty as the last of his line I missed? Yes, Bart Sr. and Jr. have both died, but that doesn't make them the end of their family line. Do we know that Bart Sr. was an only child? He could have five brothers all out merrily producing more Crouches to carry on the family tradition. Or he could have had a slew of cousins, even if he was an only child. Just because the father and son die off doesn't mean that they're the last of the line. You have to go quite a bit farther back for that. Andrea From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 18:23:46 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030518182346.9922.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58122 --- Andrea wrote: > --- Becky Walkden wrote: > > I think so too. You can't compare them to muggle > geneologies. Another > > example, unless I'm mistaken. I am too lazy to > verify this) is that > > with the death of Barty Crouch, another old > wizarding family line died > > out. Huggs Becky > > I'm confused about why everyone says this. Was > there some reference > to Barty as the last of his line I missed? Yes, > Bart Sr. and Jr. have > both died, but that doesn't make them the end of > their family line. > Do we know that Bart Sr. was an only child? He > could have five > brothers all out merrily producing more Crouches to > carry on the > family tradition. Or he could have had a slew of > cousins, even if he > was an only child. Just because the father and son > die off doesn't > mean that they're the last of the line. You have to > go quite a bit > farther back for that. > Andrea > >ME: Yes. I do not know where it is on the top of my tongue but I definitely remember some line about that being the end of the Crouch line. it was in reference that being from an old wizzarding family line does not in any way make you better or superior. But in our "real-world" society that probably doesn't make sense. In fact, you don't have to go back too many generations to find out that just about everybody is related to everybody on this planet. But apparently wizzarding family lines are not all that broad. It goes back to what was already mentioned. Ron's comment that if we didn't marry muggles we would have died out a long time ago. Also, of course there COULD be some diffenerence between a specific line and the more wholistic or extended family here. A line within a family could die off but I don't think Ms. Rowling wants to make it that complicated! Not everything in this fabulous storyline stands real close logical scrutiny and needs just to be accepted on faith! The other thing is, I don't believe for a momment that Lilly is related to Lord Voldemort. And I do believe this is the classic good-evil family feud story and with all the twists and turns our beloved author may throw at us, I don't believe she'll deviate from that. It comes down to the Heir of Griffinder vs the Heir of Slytherine, Harry and Tom. Huggs Becky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 18 18:55:05 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:55:05 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: <20030518182346.9922.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58123 Andrea: > > I'm confused about why everyone says this. Was > > there some reference > > to Barty as the last of his line I missed? GoF UK, page 614 (The Parting of the Ways) "Your dementor has just destroyed the last remaining member of a pure- blood family as old as any -- and see what that man chose to maek of his life!" Now... this doesn't necessarily mean the entire Crouch line. As Andrea points out, it could mean just Mommy Crouch, Daddy Crouch and Junior Crouch are now dead or dementorized. Darrin -- Mommy, Daddy and Junior Crouch would make a lousy name for a band. From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Sun May 18 18:56:54 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:56:54 -0000 Subject: The Dark Side/Sirius' house Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58124 This has probably been brought up before, so sorry, but it has been playing on my mind for ages now. In PS/SS whilst in Diagon Alley, Hagrid says: "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin." (PS UK paperback p62) What about Sirius? He was believed to be a supporter of Voldemort for over a decade, the one who betrayed the Potters infact. Surely Hagrid couldn't have forgot him? After all, he was so upset at the fact that he comforted Sirius the night he "murdered" the Potters. Hagrid didn't believe Sirius was innocent, no one did, so that isn't a possibilty. Was Sirius in Slytherin? I always imagined him to be a Gryffindor. as he was so close with James, and we have not encountered any strong inter-house friendships. Very misleading. Just wondered what people's views on this topic were addictedtobass2003 Katie ( YAY OoP comes out a day b4 my birthday, hope I don't get it covered in cake :s ) From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 18 19:08:05 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:08:05 -0000 Subject: The Dark Side/Sirius' house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "addictedtobass2003" wrote: > This has probably been brought up before, so sorry, but it has been > playing on my mind for ages now. > > In PS/SS whilst in Diagon Alley, Hagrid says: > > "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in > Slytherin." > > (PS UK paperback p62) > > What about Sirius? He was believed to be a supporter of Voldemort > for over a decade, the one who betrayed the Potters infact. Surely > Hagrid couldn't have forgot him? After all, he was so upset at the > fact that he comforted Sirius the night he "murdered" the Potters. > Hagrid didn't believe Sirius was innocent, no one did, so that isn't > a possibilty. Was Sirius in Slytherin? I always imagined him to be > a Gryffindor. as he was so close with James, and we have not > encountered any strong inter-house friendships. Very misleading. Now me: I always figured Hagrid was exaggerating a touch, as he is wont to do. You could make a case that Hagrid was deliberately not mentioning Sirius because that would have been too painful for Harry right off the bat, but I'm not sure. I do not believe Sirius was in Slytherin, because I just do not believe two students could spend enough time together to learn Animagic, learn the grounds so well you can write a map, etc..., if they weren't in the same house. Add in that this was at a time when the Slytherin House was a DE recruiting ground, and I don't see it as being possible. Chalk it up to exaggeration. Darrin From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sun May 18 19:21:02 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:21:02 -0000 Subject: The Dark Side/Sirius' house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "addictedtobass2003" wrote: > This has probably been brought up before, so sorry, but it has been > playing on my mind for ages now. In PS/SS whilst in Diagon Alley, Hagrid says: > "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in > Slytherin." > > (PS UK paperback p62) > > What about Sirius? He was believed to be a supporter of Voldemort > for over a decade, the one who betrayed the Potters infact. Surely > Hagrid couldn't have forgot him? After all, he was so upset at the > fact that he comforted Sirius the night he "murdered" the Potters. > Hagrid didn't believe Sirius was innocent, no one did, so that isn't a possibilty. Was Sirius in Slytherin? >Snip The canon never mentions which house James, Sirius, Peter or Remus belonged to. I may have assumed incorrectly, but it always seemed to me that such closes friendships would not be possible among any other but your housemates. Where would you find the time? You eat with your house, study in your common room mostly, party with your house, sleep in the dorm with your housemates. Romantic cross-overs seemed to be possible because they involved a certain amount of mystery and excitement but didn't involve large amounts of day-to-day time. While Harry knows lots of people from other houses and is on good terms with many, but I couldn't see him (or his dad either) developing the deep friendships they possess with anyone else other than their housemates. About Hagrid, he seems to suffer from the lack of logical and consistent thinking that impairs much of the wizarding world. He probably never thought for a second to reason that previously all dark wizards came from Slytherin, therefore, Sirius couldn't have been from Slytherin. His knowledge is based on hearsay, reports from the Daily Prophet and other limited sources. Wizards are notoriously illogical, emotion-based and reactive. That's why Dumbledore is such atowering but limited figure. He uses reason but he does not have the power to make other men see the truth. That's my story and I am sticking with it. JenD From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sun May 18 19:24:59 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:24:59 -0000 Subject: The Dark Side/Sirius' house(correction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58127 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "addictedtobass2003" > wrote: > > This has probably been brought up before, so sorry, but it has been > > playing on my mind for ages now. In PS/SS whilst in Diagon Alley, > Hagrid says: > > "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in > > Slytherin." > > > > (PS UK paperback p62) > > > > What about Sirius? He was believed to be a supporter of Voldemort > > for over a decade, the one who betrayed the Potters infact. Surely > > Hagrid couldn't have forgot him? After all, he was so upset at the > > fact that he comforted Sirius the night he "murdered" the Potters. > > Hagrid didn't believe Sirius was innocent, no one did, so that > isn't a possibilty. Was Sirius in Slytherin? > > >Snip > > The canon never mentions which house James, Sirius, Peter or Remus > belonged to. I may have assumed incorrectly, but it always seemed to > me that such closes friendships would not be possible among any other > but your housemates. Where would you find the time? You eat with your > house, study in your common room mostly, party with your house, sleep > in the dorm with your housemates. Romantic cross-overs seemed to be > possible because they involved a certain amount of mystery and > excitement but didn't involve large amounts of day-to-day time. While > Harry knows lots of people from other houses and is on good terms > with many, but I couldn't see him (or his dad either) developing the > deep friendships they possess with anyone else other than their > housemates. About Hagrid, he seems to suffer from the lack of logical > and consistent thinking that impairs much of the wizarding world. He > probably never thought for a second to reason that previously all > dark wizards came from Slytherin, therefore, Sirius couldn't have CORRECTION HERE..... a dark wizard. (SORRY FOLKS- losing sleep these days due to a new puppy...) >His knowledge is based on hearsay, reports from > the Daily Prophet and other limited sources. Wizards are notoriously > illogical, emotion-based and reactive. That's why Dumbledore is such > atowering but limited figure. He uses reason but he does not have the > power to make other men see the truth. That's my story and I am > sticking with it. > JenD From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 19:47:07 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030518194707.26864.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58128 --- darrin_burnett wrote: > Andrea: > > > I'm confused about why everyone says this. Was > > > there some reference > > > to Barty as the last of his line I missed? > > > GoF UK, page 614 (The Parting of the Ways) > > "Your dementor has just destroyed the last remaining > member of a pure- > blood family as old as any -- and see what that man > chose to maek of > his life!" > > Now... this doesn't necessarily mean the entire > Crouch line. As > Andrea points out, it could mean just Mommy Crouch, > Daddy Crouch and > Junior Crouch are now dead or dementorized. > > Darrin > -- Mommy, Daddy and Junior Crouch would make a lousy > name for a band. Me: DEMENTORIZED? Hey I like that! Huggs Becky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 19:53:43 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dark Side/Sirius' house(correction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030518195343.99056.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58129 Jen Wrote: > > The canon never mentions which house James, > Sirius, Peter or Remus > > belonged to. Me: Ha! Maybe very rare mistake indeed so naturally we have to bring it up! Actually, don't we know for a certainty that James Potter was a Griffinder since we know he was their seeker? I seem to remember a trophy with his name on it. Huggs Becky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun May 18 20:02:43 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:02:43 -0000 Subject: The Dark Side/Sirius' house(correction) In-Reply-To: <20030518195343.99056.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > Jen Wrote: > > > > The canon never mentions which house James, > > Sirius, Peter or Remus > > > belonged to. > > Me: Ha! Maybe very rare mistake indeed so naturally > we have to bring it up! Actually, don't we > know for a certainty that James Potter was a > Griffinder since we know he was their seeker? I seem > to remember a trophy with his name on it. Huggs Becky Here, have a nice turquoise flag of movie contamination, Becky. I'm afraid that canon doesn't state that. *From the books* we don't know what position James played at. From the second Scholastic interview we are told he was a chaser (not a seeker). His house its not mentioned either, although JKR stated in the same interview that he was a Gryffindor, IIRC. I personally trust more the interviews than the movie. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, passing through From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun May 18 20:11:24 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:11:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] James' house (was Re: The Dark Side/Sirius' house(correction)) References: Message-ID: <003101c31d79$a8f89ea0$3aa3cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 58131 Grey Wolf wrote: > Here, have a nice turquoise flag of movie contamination, Becky. I'm > afraid that canon doesn't state that. *From the books* we don't know > what position James played at. From the second Scholastic interview we > are told he was a chaser (not a seeker). His house its not mentioned > either, although JKR stated in the same interview that he was a > Gryffindor, IIRC. I personally trust more the interviews than the > movie. What interview did JKR say James was in Gryffindor? The closest I've been able to find is in the Scholastic interview, probably the same one you mentioned, where the question was asked: "What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different?" To which JKR's response was "James was chaser." Technically she neither confirms nor denies that he was in Gryffindor in that particular statement. *If* she had said "James was the Gryffindor chaser" that would have settled it completely. Obviously if he wasn't in Gryffindor, she's not going to give that away in a Scholastic interview, since it would be quite a revelation. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 18 20:22:53 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:22:53 -0000 Subject: James' house (was Re: The Dark Side/Sirius' house(correction)) In-Reply-To: <003101c31d79$a8f89ea0$3aa3cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58132 Richelle: > > What interview did JKR say James was in Gryffindor? The closest I've been able to find is in the Scholastic interview, probably the same one you mentioned, where the question was asked: > > "What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different?" > > To which JKR's response was "James was chaser." > > Technically she neither confirms nor denies that he was in Gryffindor in that particular statement. *If* she had said "James was the Gryffindor chaser" that would have settled it completely. Obviously if he wasn't in Gryffindor, she's not going to give that away in a Scholastic interview, since it would be quite a revelation. > This has come up before, and I maintain that it is much ado about nothing. It's like answering the question, "What position does Kurt Warner player for the Rams?" and only answering "QB" The Rams (and the Gryffs) are implied and understood. Besides, though we rightly don't call the film canon, I have a hard time believing that scene gets in if JKR says to the screenwriter, "You REALLY shouldn't ID James as a Gryff." Darrin -- The Dementorizers would be a great name for a band. From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 20:24:17 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dark Side/Sirius' house(correction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030518202417.3161.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58133 Grey Wolf wrote: Here, have a nice turquoise flag of movie contamination, Becky. I'm afraid that canon doesn't state that. *From the books* we don't know what position James played at. From the second Scholastic interview we are told he was a chaser (not a seeker). His house its not mentioned either, although JKR stated in the same interview that he was a Gryffindor, IIRC. I personally trust more the interviews than the movie. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, passing through ME: Uh Oh. Did I let the movies contaminate my memory? I could have sworn he was Gryffindor seeker in the books. Oops. Who's been casting memory charms on me, eh? Huggs Becky who being TOTALLY blond doesn't really need a memory charm. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slinkie at nids.se Sun May 18 21:04:25 2003 From: slinkie at nids.se (eledhwen_0) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:04:25 -0000 Subject: Lily's protection saving Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58134 Hi! I'm mostly a lurker but I felt that I had to give my opinion on this subject. I've read masses of posts talking about the way Lily's love saved Harry; whether it was a spell or simply the strength of the sacrifice. The problem is that I do not believe that her sacrifice is the thing that saved Harry at all. It is never stated in cannon that this is what saved him. In PS/SS (sorry I don't have the books with me so I can't say which page) Dumbledore simply says that Quirell/Voldemort couldn't touch Harry because of the protection given by Lily, not that this is what kept him alive as a baby. Also I do not believe that Voldemort's statement in GoF that there was no mother to die for Harry this time (sorry that I can't give the exact quote, but as I said I do not have the books right now)is proof of that this is what saved Harry's life, both because Voldemort is not all knowing and because it's never a good idea to trust the bad guy. I believe that there must have been something else, something special about Harry that saved him. I hope I havent repeated something that has been said a million times or gotten any of these quotes wrong (too much time away from the books) and made a complete fool of myself. If I have gotten them wrong, please be nice when you completely trash this theory. Hugs Eledhwen From carolbuzzetta at hotmail.com Sun May 18 17:06:15 2003 From: carolbuzzetta at hotmail.com (iamscabberstherat) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:06:15 -0000 Subject: Voldemort kills James and Lilly-why not send the Death-eaters to do it? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58135 Does anyone else find it curious that Voldemort went to kill the Potters himself? Why didn't he send the Death-eaters to do it? Also,I think that James and Lily might have been working in some top-secret dept. at the ministry of magic. That might explain their wealth. The Dursleys certainly didn't seem particularly well-off financially(Petunia is Lily's sister). I think that Hagrid will be killed in OOTP and that Percy will be a pawn in Voldemorts' plans. This and Pettigrews' knowledge of the Weasley household may lead to a death of one of the Weasleys. iamscabberstherat From patricia at obscure.org Sun May 18 21:29:24 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58136 On Sun, 18 May 2003, Steve wrote: > How can a family line that has existed for over a 1,000 years die out? It's easy enough, if each generation only had a few children. If a couple only has a single child and that child never reproduces for whatever reason (infertile, doesn't like kids, gay, dies young, etc.), then that branch of the tree dies off. The more children a family has, the less likely that is to happen, but if family members are routinely limiting themselves to small families (one or two kids, the way many modern couples do now that reliable contraceptives are available), the clan as a whole becomes vulnerable to dying out. This becomes even more likely if family members frequently marry within the family (first or second cousins, for instance) to maintain their "purity" or to preserve the family inheritance, as has often happened through history among elite families. Normally, if Cousin A and Cousin B marry outsiders and have kids they would produce two new branches of the family tree. However, if they marry each other and have kids, they only produce one new branch, making the family tree much narrower. > As > others have pointed out, given double lifetimes and double fertile > child bearing years of wizards and witches, it would seem reasonable > that all families are somewhat large thereby creating many decendants. Except we haven't seen many examples of large wizarding families. In fact, the Weasleys are the only one I can think of, and the Malfoys' sneering comments about the Weasleys having more children than they can afford suggests to me that families that large are not the norm. I suspect that magical folk have been taking advantage of good magical contraception for a long, long time, allowing them to limit the size of their families in a way muggles have only been able to achieve relatively recently. There is no canon to directly support that, though. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 18 21:31:52 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:31:52 -0000 Subject: Which house for which wizard? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58137 The whole debate about where James and Sirius were sorted got me thinking about who was in which house when the went to Hogwarts. For the moment, I'm assuming these folks went to Hogwarts, and not Beauxbatons or Durmstrang or some other school we haven't heard of. And nothing is sure. I'm just going by clues and guesses. James, Lily, Sirius, Lupin, Pettigrew - Gryffindor. I think the James was in Gryffindor is almost certain and I also think for the Marauders to be together, they'd need to be in the same house. Arthur and Molly - Most likely Gryffindor, simply because they've produced seven Gryffs. Hagrid - Most likely Gryffindor, but I don't think we have proof. It is interesting that Riddle and Hagrid are on a first name basis - page 184, CoS, but I don't think that means Hagrid was a Slyth. Snape - Slytherin all the way. He was part of a gang of Slyths, Sirius says in GoF. McGonagall - Probably Gryff Flitwick - Probably Ravenclaw Sprout - Probably Hufflepuff Lockhart - I've heard the Gryffindor comments, but I don't think so. I can't see Godric actually picking this git. My guess is his cunning put him in Slytherin or he landed in Hufflepuff. Trelawney - Make her a Ravenclaw, just because it will drive Jenny from Ravenclaw absolutely batty. Quirrell, Hooch, Binns, Sinistra -- Not enough known. Crouch Sr. and Crouch Jr. -- Well, we know Barty Jr. became a DE and a lot of Slyths became DEs, so does that follow? I say it does. Now, Crouch Sr. is certainly ambitious and cold enough to be in Slyth, isn't he? But, father and son don't necessarily have to be from the same house. Malfoys - all Slyths. Fudge -- Now this is interesting. His feelings on purebloods indicate Slytherin sympathies, as does his ambition. But this gets into questions about how the Minister of Magic is picked. Does he or she have to be elected, or just appointed? And appointed by who? We know that Fudge got the job after Dumbledore turned it down and after Crouch got into trouble. I don't know. Putting him in Slyth would be too easy. Call it a Hufflepuff. Anyone else we should try to sort? Darrin -- Still trying to found that fifth house. From JessaDrow at aol.com Sun May 18 21:38:26 2003 From: JessaDrow at aol.com (JessaDrow at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:38:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which house for which wizard? Message-ID: <121.221127a4.2bf95752@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58138 In a message dated 5/18/03 5:32:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > Hagrid - Most likely Gryffindor, but I don't think we have proof. It > is interesting that Riddle and Hagrid are on a first name basis - > page 184, CoS, but I don't think that means Hagrid was a Slyth. > I'm fairly certain Hadrig was Gryffindor. He and Dumbledore are close, and when Hadrig was a student Dumbledore was head of house. And he did convince the headmaster at the time to take Hadrig on as gameskeeper. I doubt he would have been so close to someone not in his house. McGonagall - Probably Gryff Obviously McGonagall was Gryffindor, if she's now head of house for Gryffindor. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 18 21:38:47 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:38:47 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florentine Maier" wrote: > Have you thought of the possibility that Snape might be a dhampire? The Snape's a part-Vampire theory is one of the first I ever posted, many moons ago. There are lots of arguments pro and con. I find it very suspicious that there are so many references to vampires in the books, and yet we haven't been introduced to one. Pippin From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun May 18 22:53:55 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:53:55 -0000 Subject: The Dark Side/Sirius' house In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "addictedtobass2003" wrote: > This has probably been brought up before, so sorry, but it has been > playing on my mind for ages now. > > In PS/SS whilst in Diagon Alley, Hagrid says: > > "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in > Slytherin." > > (PS UK paperback p62) > > What about Sirius? He was believed to be a supporter of Voldemort > for over a decade, the one who betrayed the Potters infact. Surely > Hagrid couldn't have forgot him? After all, he was so upset at the > fact that he comforted Sirius the night he "murdered" the Potters. > Hagrid didn't believe Sirius was innocent, no one did, so that isn't > a possibilty. Was Sirius in Slytherin? I always imagined him to be > a Gryffindor. as he was so close with James, and we have not > encountered any strong inter-house friendships. Very misleading. > > Just wondered what people's views on this topic were We've gone through this very thing many times, and many folks are of the opinion that a) You can't put that much stock in what Hagrid says because of his bad experience with Tom Riddle when he was in school (Hagrid was expelled both because Riddle really caused Myrtle's death and because he set up Hagrid to take the fall for him). b) Hagrid probably spoke hastily and isn't likely to backtrack and qualify his remark by saying, "Oh, except for that no-good traitor who's responsible for your parents' deaths," since that would unduly distress Harry and open up a can of worms JKR didn't want opened up until PoA. c) All bad wizards couldn't have been in Slytherin, as it would have been a pretty simple case of just watching all former Slytherins all the time to work out where and when dastardly deeds would be occurring. They'd be outnumbered in the wizarding world by about 3:1. Another reason why Sirius was probably not in Slytherin: too obvious. No one saw the betrayal coming for a good reason. If James, for very mysterious reasons, had had a best friend in Slytherin, afterward everyone would have been saying things like, "What could he expect? He should never have trusted a Slytherin..." This is not the sort of thing we hear about at the Three Broomsticks. Because of this and other things that the trio overhear at the pub, I think that it is highly unlikely that Sirius was in any house other than Gryffindor. So what purpose did Hagrid's statement serve, other than to confuse? I think that the real purpose of Hagrid's statement was probably to give Harry such a strong negative opinion of Slytherin without his having any other experience of it other than Malfoy voicing a desire to be in that house that when Harry is wearing the Sorting Hat he is desperate to be anywhere else. If Hagrid had hedged or admitted that his statement was an exaggeration, it wouldn't have had the same effect. This way, it's easier to understand Harry's aversion to Slytherin. However, I'm not completely certain that Hagrid's statement, given it's hyperbolic aspect, is in fact 'canon' for Riddle being in Slytherin, as was recently suggested. Instead, it seems that everything good that Riddle says about Slytherin when he is in the Chamber strongly implies that that is the house he is in. Everything he did would lose all sense and logic if he'd been Sorted into a house other than Slytherin. Added to this is the fact that we have no proof in canon that Hagrid actually knows that Riddle and Voldemort are the same person. He's very nervous about saying the name "Voldemort" and claims not to be able to spell it. He could have mentioned that he'd gone to school with him and that he used to be called Tom Riddle, but Hagrid didn't do that. While it might have constituted a spoiler for CoS for Hagrid to use his exact name, he COULD have said that he'd been to school with him, or something equally vague, but he did not. So while we have a very, very strong implication of Riddle having been a Slytherin based on things he says about his ancestor when he's in the Chamber, I wouldn't call Hagrid's highly-suspect statement "canon proof." --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun May 18 23:03:44 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 23:03:44 -0000 Subject: Voldemort kills James and Lilly-why not send the Death-eaters to do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58141 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iamscabberstherat" wrote: > Does anyone else find it curious that Voldemort went to kill the > Potters himself? Why didn't he send the Death-eaters to do it? I'd ascribe it to typical Evil Overlordian behavior. Why send the minions to do in the Potters, when you can strut in to do it yourself, (believing in your own invincibility), and have the supreme satisfaction that not only will your enemies die at your hand, they will die knowing they were betrayed. Also,I > think that James and Lily might have been working in some top-secret > dept. at the ministry of magic. That might explain their wealth. I've always kind of liked the idea that the Potter family earned its wealth centuries ago. I can believe that James and Lily might have been doing top-secret work for the Ministry as well as for Dumbledore, but I don't know that the Ministry necessarily pays huge salaries for that. The > Dursleys certainly didn't seem particularly well-off > financially(Petunia is Lily's sister). I don't get a feel one way or the other on the financial status of the Evans family. Certainly Petunia seems to appreciate whatever Vernon's salary has brought her, but I think part of that is more the desire to fit in with middle class people in a middle class neighborhood, and draw that curtain of respectability over the memory of her freak sister, Lily. I think that Hagrid will be > killed in OOTP and that Percy will be a pawn in Voldemorts' plans. > This and Pettigrews' knowledge of the Weasley household may lead to a > death of one of the Weasleys. I think Hagrid's a goner, too, in OOP. And I'm sure there will be at least one, if not two, Weasley deaths before the end of the series, simply because there are lots of them. But, what does Pettigrew's knowledge of the household have to do with anything, unless there is top secret stuff going on there that would be of interest to the DEs? People have speculated that Peter may have assumed his human form at night and done nefarious things, but that seems out of character for him. Most of the years he spent there Sirius was safely locked up and Voldemort was invisibly impotent. Peter wasn't going to make a move to do anything until he knew he had another, safer bolt hole to go to. I'm more concerned with Peter's knowledge of Padfoot. Marianne From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 18 23:54:21 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:54:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort kills James and Lilly-why not send the Death-eaters to do it? References: Message-ID: <002801c31d98$ced1b430$f28b6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58142 iamscabberstherat wrote: Does anyone else find it curious that Voldemort went to kill the Potters himself? Why didn't he send the Death-eaters to do it? Also,I think that James and Lily might have been working in some top-secret dept. at the ministry of magic. That might explain their wealth. The Dursleys certainly didn't seem particularly well-off financially(Petunia is Lily's sister). I think that Hagrid will be killed in OOTP and that Percy will be a pawn in Voldemorts' plans. This and Pettigrews' knowledge of the Weasley household may lead to a death of one of the Weasleys. Me (Izaskun) Agree. What about Arthur??? I bet Lucius Malfoy would be only too glad to finish him. Or better still, they could kill each other in a terrible fight, just like King Arthur killed Lucius after being mortally wounded by him. MMMMM, sort of makes sense. Doesn't it??? Imagine Ron and DRaco at school afterwards... CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 18 23:57:12 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:57:12 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? References: Message-ID: <003601c31d99$34233430$f28b6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58143 Pippin wrote: The Snape's a part-Vampire theory is one of the first I ever posted, many moons ago. There are lots of arguments pro and con. I find it very suspicious that there are so many references to vampires in the books, and yet we haven't been introduced to one. Me, Izaskun: First time I hear of Dhampires. Do they drink blood, too? Sounds interesting. I never thought Snape was a vampire, but this theory is very interesting, and it certainly makes more sense than the "snape-is-a-vampire" theory. CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun May 18 23:27:23 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:27:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? References: Message-ID: <3EC816DB.6040004@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58144 pippin_999 wrote: > > The Snape's a part-Vampire theory is one of the first I ever > posted, many moons ago. There are lots of arguments pro and > con. I find it very suspicious that there are so many references to > vampires in the books, and yet we haven't been introduced to > one. > > Pippin > I'd sooner think Lockhart was one. Look at his power over females. (grin) Snape doesn't appear to have any power to control others outside of the fear that some students have that he might poison them and he bleeds quite normally when bitten by giant three-headed dogs. Vampires, being dead, don't tend to bleed. He also attends Quidditch games in broad daylight, was not effected by Quirrel's garlic and other then pale skin and wearing black, he shows no sign of being a vampire. Otherwise most Goths would be vampires. Maybe he is just a Goth Wizard? ;) Jazmyn From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Mon May 19 01:20:21 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Which house for which wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519012021.53631.qmail@web13108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58145 Darrin wrote: <<>> And now me (Odile): Yes, Arthur & Molly were definitely Gryffs. Quoting from PS (UK paperback), p. 90: 'What house are your brothers in?' asked Harry. 'Gryffindor,' said Ron. ... 'Mum and Dad were in it, too.' [end quote] I am almost positive that there is canon that says Hagrid was indeed a Gryff as well, but I cannot find it yet. McGonagall, Flitwick and Sprout I would say are alumni of the Houses they head, so, Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, respectively. Back to Darrin: <<>> YAY! ^_^ <<>> As to Fudge, there really is no way for us to know what House Fudge was in until JKR tells us. However, I can see Percy Weasley becoming the ultimate bureaucratic dweeb, just as Fudge is. Who knows? Maybe Fudge is a Gryffindor gone awry? Odile --not so sure about a band name, but I think "House of Fudge" would be a pretty good name for a concept album. From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Mon May 19 01:20:34 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:20:34 -0000 Subject: Which house for which wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58146 darrin_burnett wrote: > Arthur and Molly - Most likely Gryffindor, simply because they've > produced seven Gryffs. bowlwoman: Yes, they both were. Ron says so to Harry on the train before they reach Hogwarts for the first time in PS/SS (SS US hardback, pg 106): >>>> "What house are your brothers in?" asked Harry. "Gryffindor," said Ron. Gloom seemed to be settling on him again. "Mom and Dad were in it too. ..." <<<< Darrin says later: > Hagrid - Most likely Gryffindor, but I don't think we have proof. bowlwoman again: In the October 20, 2000 Barnes and Noble chat, JKR explicitly says that Hagrid was in Gryffindor. And again Darrin speaks: > Anyone else we should try to sort? bowlwoman's reply: Well, there are lots of wizards/witches mentioned as minor characters, but I'm sure they would fall into the "not enough known" category (Rita Skeeter, Amos Diggory, Ludo Bagman, Mad-Eye Moody and the Longbottoms, etc) bowlwoman - Would "Mad-Eye Moody and the Longbottoms" make a good band name? From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Mon May 19 01:30:24 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:30:24 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: <3EC816DB.6040004@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58148 > > I'd sooner think Lockhart was one. Look at his power over females. (grin) > > Snape doesn't appear to have any power to control others outside of the > fear that some students have that he might poison them and he bleeds > quite normally when bitten by giant three-headed dogs. Vampires, being > dead, don't tend to bleed. He also attends Quidditch games in broad > daylight, was not effected by Quirrel's garlic and other then pale skin > and wearing black, he shows no sign of being a vampire. Otherwise most > Goths would be vampires. Maybe he is just a Goth Wizard? ;) > > Jazmyn Actually, in the Stoker tradition, Dracula is actually able to go outside in broad daylight, only his powers are reduced I do believe I wrote a post regarding this in late 2002. -SophineClaire From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 19 02:11:49 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:11:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort kills James and Lilly-why not send the Death-eaters to do it? References: <002801c31d98$ced1b430$f28b6750@takun> Message-ID: <000901c31dac$022649f0$2dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58149 > > Me (Izaskun) > Agree. What about Arthur??? I bet Lucius Malfoy would be only too glad to finish him. Or better still, they could kill each other in a terrible fight, just like King Arthur killed Lucius after being mortally wounded by him. MMMMM, sort of makes sense. Doesn't it??? Imagine Ron and DRaco at school afterwards... I thought King Arthur and Mordred (his son) killed each other? Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Mon May 19 02:14:44 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 02:14:44 -0000 Subject: House elves and WW ethics In-Reply-To: <3EC7BDE5.9020001@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: Jazymyn wrote: >We should not pretend that the WW is a happy little place, whose >people >are superior to humans in every way. They can be just as evil as >muggles.. even more so as 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'. >Making >non-humans into slaves, cutting up what we might see as intelligent >or >rare creatures for potion components or as foodstuffs, turning >fellow >humans into toads or experimenting on house pets could be quite >normal >for them, even if it might shock most muggles. However, magic can >often >repair the damage to some of the above, so it may not be seen as a >problem. Magic can make happy slaves and turn toads back into humans. I hear a lot of complaints about the ethics in the Wizarding World...and while I agree that the WW is by no means a perfect paradise, I believe that it *does* ethically have a few points of higher ground compared to Muggle society (though I'm refering to laws and policies of America, due to a lack of knowledge of the law systems of other countries). In GOF (pg 217), Crouch-as-Moody states "...those three curses, Avada Kedarva, Imperious, and Cruciatus - are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The use of any one of them, on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban." So in other words, it is illegal to kill someone, no matter the circumstances. Now may I direct your attention to the *delightful* Muggle invention we like to call the 'hand gun'. It is a weapon, pure and simple, useless for both targeting and hunting. It has one purpose, and that it to kill. I'm not trying to get into a gun/anti gun debate here, and I hope I didn't offend anyone with the above remarks. The point I'm trying to make is that, in the Wizarding World, according to the law, it is unethical and illegal to kill. And it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, if you do the deed, you go to jail for life. Thus, the WW has a lot higher value of human life then does the Muggle world, even if it's values on the lives of other sentient creatures admitably need revolutionizing. Muggle society has a lot of flaws...so too does the Wizarding World. Each has its pros and cons. - Joe S. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon May 19 02:32:22 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:32:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and WW ethics Message-ID: <65.1145a9c1.2bf99c36@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58151 Joe S. writes: In GOF (pg 217), Crouch-as-Moody > > states "...those three curses, Avada Kedarva, Imperious, and > Cruciatus - are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The use of any one > of them, on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in > Azkaban." > So in other words, it is illegal to kill someone, no matter the > circumstances. . The point I'm trying > > to make is that, in the Wizarding World, according to the law, it is > unethical and illegal to kill. And it doesn't matter what the > circumstances are, if you do the deed, you go to jail for life. Thus, > the WW has a lot higher value of human life then does the Muggle > world, even if it's values on the lives of other sentient creatures > admitably need revolutionizing. Me: I have to say I disagree with this SLIGHTLY. GoF (Ch. 27) Sirius (speaking of Crouch Sr.) "The Aurors were given new powers -powers to kill rather than capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the dementors without a trial. Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects." So, during VW1/The capturing of DE's at least, there were circumstances when it was OK to use the Unforgivables and to kill. > Muggle society has a lot of flaws...so too does the Wizarding > World. Each has its pros and cons. Agreed. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 02:36:52 2003 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House elves and WW ethics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519023652.71570.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58152 --- Joe S. wrote: > I hear a lot of complaints about the ethics in the Wizarding > World...and while I agree that the WW is by no means a perfect > paradise, I believe that it *does* ethically have a few points of > higher ground compared to Muggle society (though I'm refering to laws > and policies of America, due to a lack of knowledge of the law > systems of other countries). In GOF (pg 217), Crouch-as-Moody > states "...those three curses, Avada Kedarva, Imperious, and > Cruciatus - are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The use of any one > of them, on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in > Azkaban." > So in other words, it is illegal to kill someone, no matter the > circumstances. Actually, no. In other words, it is illegal to kill someone with Avada Kedavra. There are still plenty of other ways someone could be killed; it's only that one spell that is outlawed. And incidentally, during the 1st Voldie War and its aftermath, Aurors *were* authorized to use the Unforgivables. So just like in the Muggle world, the WW considers it illegal to kill...except in certain circumstances and with certain spells. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 19 02:41:19 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:41:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Many Replies to 2 Weeks' Posts, please scroll down to find *YOUR* NAME!! References: <20030518.121306.-779041.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <003101c31db0$21a7a3b0$2dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58153 > On Sun, 18 May 2003 03:59:54 -0000 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > writes: > > Some brilliantly insightful listie (but I don't remember which one) > > suggested that the Devil's Snare trap was intended for Neville, who > > is good at Herbology, as the chess was for Ron, the flying keys for > > Harry, and the logic puzzle for Hermione. IE, that Dumbledore > > expected them to take Neville with them rather than to leave him > > paralyzed on the common room floor. > Melanie: > Hmmm, that's an interesting take. But, then, who was the troll for? > Marcus Flint or some of his giant Quidditch cronies? no, I'm not trying to cut you down! :-)> > Kelly: The troll would be for Harry and Ron, who have already defeated a troll. The help of Hermione (and Neville) would only be a bonus. > > > > Ali wrote: > > > > << I do not believe that Harry's protection dies the minute he is > > away from the Dursleys. I do believe though that it becomes weaker. > > It would have been at its weakest at the end of the school year - > > which just happens to be when Voldemort struck in GoF; perhaps this > > is no coincidence. >> > > To which CatLady wrote: > > I think so, too. That would explain this bit at the end of GoF: "Ron > > told Harry about a meeting Mrs Weasley had had with Dumbledore > > before > > going home. < > this summer," he said. "But he wants you to go back to the Dursleys, > > > > at least at first." "Why?" said Harry. "She said Dumbledore's got > > his reasons," said Ron,>> Harry has to go back to the Dursleys to > > recharge the protective magic, and THEN he can go to the Weasleys. > Melanie again: > I've always assumed that Dumbledore needed Harry to go on to the > Dursley's because he already has protections in place for him there, DD > has nothing set up at the Weasleys. The first time Harry went to the > Burrow, it was not with DD's blessing, but he must not have thought the > danger very great or he wouldn't have allowed Harry to spend 2 weeks > there without protections. In GoF, I think Harry was only there a couple > of days, and again, DD would have no reason to suspect real danger, > despite the DE's and the Dark Mark at the World Cup. Now that Voldemort > has risen again, though, DD's not about to let Harry go off to spend time > anywhere that he is not protected. That was my take on it, anyway. > Kelly: Harry was already staying with the Weasleys when the Dark Mark went up at the QWC. IIRC, school started only a couple of days after the QWC, so he wasn't there that long. Although the Mark went up, DD knew that Voldemort had not truly risen yet, and probably concluded it was some of the DE's having way too much fun. In that environment, he probably figured the Weasleys could be trusted to keep Harry safe for one more day. Logistically, it would have been a pain to get Harry back to the Dursleys, let him sleep for one night, and then make sure he made it to King's Cross Station the very next day to catch the train. Might as well catch it with the Weasleys. But, as you say, with Voldemort completely returned, he's not going to let him go to the Weasleys until he gets some safeguards in place. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon May 19 02:46:42 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:46:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: All Quidditch teams need new Captains1 Message-ID: <143.115bafbf.2bf99f92@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58154 In a message dated 5/18/2003 10:13:52 AM Central Standard Time, mpe at anacon.freeserve.co.uk writes: > Not that Rita is likely to be writing any more articles that have > anything to do with Hogwarts. If she does her secret will come out. > > Hydrxuk > Rita might not care about that if she can expose that Dumbledore and others are conspriing behind the Ministry's back not to mention aiding & abetting a known fugitive. However I'm not entirely convinced that Rita did find out about Sirius and the rest. There was a significant gap between Dumbledore leaving to see the Diggorys and Hermione catching Rita. It entirely possible that Rita arrived on the windowsill during that gap. I think that Hermione had already figured out that Rita could tranform into some type of bug and was keeping an eye out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon May 19 03:08:59 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 23:08:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves and WW ethics References: <20030519023652.71570.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005b01c31db4$0008c780$4301a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 58155 > --- Joe S. wrote: > > I hear a lot of complaints about the ethics in the Wizarding > > World...and while I agree that the WW is by no means a perfect > > paradise, I believe that it *does* ethically have a few points of > > higher ground compared to Muggle society (though I'm refering to laws > > and policies of America, due to a lack of knowledge of the law > > systems of other countries). In GOF (pg 217), Crouch-as-Moody > > states "...those three curses, Avada Kedarva, Imperious, and > > Cruciatus - are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The use of any one > > of them, on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in > > Azkaban." > > So in other words, it is illegal to kill someone, no matter the > > circumstances. First, how is this "higher ground"? Are you trying to argue that it is morally wrong to kill another person in self-defense? *confused* I will concede that there are people out there who would argue that, but...I've just never met one. *looks at you curiously* Second, the fact that Avada Kedarva is illegal does not make *all* ways of killing illegal. There are several other ways one could kill someone else with magic. Also, Aurors *were* authorized to use AK during Voldemort's little reign of terror. So, I'd say that they believe that killing is okay, under certain circumstances. Which is pretty much aligned with the beliefs of, AFAIK, most of America. Laura From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 19 03:56:00 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:56:00 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: <003601c31d99$34233430$f28b6750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > Me, Izaskun: > First time I hear of Dhampires. Do they drink blood, too? Sounds interesting. << I think the term "Dhampire" comes from a role-playing game, but the concept is found in actual folklore. In Eastern Europe there were stories about vampire spirits which could take physical form long enough to mate with human beings and spawn offspring. These vampires were said to feed on vital energy, not blood. But JKR has a habit of combining various folklore and literary traditions to come up with her creations. Pippin From spottydog at worldnet.att.net Sun May 18 22:51:49 2003 From: spottydog at worldnet.att.net (CARRIE MUNGAI) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:51:49 -0500 Subject: Rita Skeeter References: <1053288170.6182.10168.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c31d90$12a7f880$86e9560c@s0023817978> No: HPFGUIDX 58157 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at a... wrote: Also, given the potential problems that Rita Skeeter's articles have introduced, Harry may not be the best choice politically... Not that Rita is likely to be writing any more articles that have anything to do with Hogwarts. If she does her secret will come out. Hydrxuk Unfortunately, I disagree with this. I believe that Rita Skeeter has a larger, darker role to play for several reasons. 1. The character "Rita Skeeter" is based on JKR's perception of certain members of the media & the intrusion they have caused in her life. Well, that's not gotten any better, has it? 2. A person who is cornered or forced into submission against their will becomes more dangerous because of the resentment they feel toward the persons causing the behavioral change. Just check any prison. 3. She is already disliked as a character, so who better to play a dark role? Shades of Draco & Lucius. I'd love to hear more on this, anyone? Spottydog From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon May 19 04:07:59 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 00:07:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] James' house (was Re: The Dark Side/Sirius' house(correct... Message-ID: <66.3206d20f.2bf9b29f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58158 In a message dated 5/18/2003 3:12:40 PM Central Standard Time, rvotaw at i-55.com writes: > Technically she neither confirms nor denies that he was in Gryffindor in > that particular statement. *If* she had said "James was the Gryffindor > chaser" that would have settled it completely. Obviously if he wasn't in > Gryffindor, she's not going to give that away in a Scholastic interview, > since it would be quite a revelation. > > Richelle > Or she may have felt that there was no need to clarify something that was mentioned in the question itself. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Mon May 19 04:16:56 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 23:16:56 -0500 Subject: Filk: Voldemort's Triumph Message-ID: [Scene: In a dungeon dark, dank, and ominous Tom Riddle has just completed a Dark ritual, attempting to attain immortality (see my previous filk "Riddles Search"). After drinking a smoking potion, Riddle has fallen to the floor in agony, where he has begun changing. When the excruciating transfiguration is complete, Riddle stands to his feet and looks at himself in a glass. The transformation is remarkable. Where before stood a handsome, dark-haired young man, now stands a hideous creature. His eyes have grown blood-red, and the pupils are dark, soulless slits. His skin has blanched as white as a corpse, and his nose, once proud and aqualine, has shrunken back against his skull, making his nostrils appear mere slits against the pale flesh. Gazing at this new, fearsome appearance in the mirror, Riddle exults in his success this transformation might be the one the one which grants him eternal life.] Riddle: What is this feeling Of power and drive I've never known? I feel alive! I know the potion Through which I will thrive, Makes me now know Why I'm alive! Like the Darkness, it's hidden, Sinister, deep, and unknown. All shall do what I have bidden I shall rule them alone! This is the summit For which I did strive Never have I Felt so alive! There is no battle I couldn't survive - Feeling like this - Feeling alive! Power, like heavenly Nectar Flows through my veins on this night. Dark as a hideous spectre, But blazing with light! Now forever, Ill always survive! Always flourish, and ever shall thrive! Its a truth that cannot be denied. It shall happen as long as Im ALIVE!!! [Scene Change: It is many, many years later. Voldemort has been existing as a creature of vapor and spirit for the past 14 years, but has now returned to form and full power. Wormtail has just robed him as he stepped out of his cauldron, and the triumph of the moment causes him to burst into song.] Riddle: Dumbledore thought he could keep me at bay, Now let that idiot see! I knew the truth on that one fateful day, That NOTHING could devastate me! Soon his whole school will be shattered, And I will have Dumbledores head! All of the Light shall be scattered, Defeated or dead! Tonight I'll plunder heaven blind, Steal from all the gods! Tonight I'll take from all mankind, Conquer all the odds! And I know I'll live on forever, And rule all a dark, freezing tide. And I'll show the world That tonight and forever, Theyll never defeat those with Power on their side! Now forever, Ill always survive! Always flourish, and ever shall thrive! And my rule shall neer be denied Now or ever, as Voldemorts ALIVE!!!!! [Cackling in cruel laughter, Voldemort turns his attention to young Harry Potter, who waits, tied to the tombstone] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From petalla at express56.com Mon May 19 05:28:20 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:28:20 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florentine Maier" > wrote: > > Have you thought of the possibility that Snape might be a > dhampire? > > The Snape's a part-Vampire theory is one of the first I ever > posted, many moons ago. There are lots of arguments pro and > con. I find it very suspicious that there are so many references to > vampires in the books, and yet we haven't been introduced to > one. > > Pippin I'm so torn on this issue (as I am with many of the Snape issues). I refuse to join in with the LOLLIPOPs group--I just can't see Snape being in love with Lily. However--the vampire thing? I really just don't know. I do think he is at least an animagus bat. JKR has said that the animals that the characters do turn into reflect their personalities, and there are many bat references that surround the charatcter that is Snape. ~~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Mon May 19 05:34:22 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:34:22 EDT Subject: Bat!Snape WAS: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? Message-ID: <15e.2013e685.2bf9c6de@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58161 Peggy says: > I really just > don't know. I do think he is at least an animagus bat. JKR has said > that the animals that the characters do turn into reflect their > personalities, and there are many bat references that surround the > charatcter that is Snape. I say: Well, if he is he's unregistered. Remember in PoA when Hermione went and looked up the animagus list? If Snape had been on there she certainly would've mentioned it. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 19 05:39:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:39:47 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin ... or NOT??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > On Sun, 18 May 2003, Steve wrote: > > ...edited... > > > As others have pointed out, given double lifetimes and double > > fertile > child bearing years of wizards and witches, it would > > seem reasonable that all families are somewhat large thereby > > creating many decendants. > > Except we haven't seen many examples of large wizarding families. bboy_mn: I was thinking from a conceptual or statistical perspective. In theory, a woman could have kids until she was in her 80's. If she had one kid every 10 years, in her normal productive lifetime, she would have about 6 kids, yet there would never be more than 2 kids living at home at any given time. That would give the outward impression of a relatively small family, while over a lifetime, creating a relatively large family. The basic concept is that a longer span of productive years opens the possibility for a large family even though at any given time the number of kids living at home would be small. Not saying it does happen, only saying that the potential is there. > I suspect that magical folk have been taking advantage of good > magical contraception for a long, long time, > > > ---- > Patricia Bullington-McGuire bboy_mn: I'm behind the idea of magical contraception too. I've always thought it was a very realistic and likely concept. But we don't see any health classes in the Potter world. Where do kids learn it? Maybe health/sex ed. comes in 6th year. bboy_mn From oppen at mycns.net Mon May 19 08:16:01 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:16:01 -0500 Subject: The Unforgivable Curses and killing Message-ID: <00e401c31de4$9bc90f60$3b570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 58163 Frankly, I would far, far rather live in the USA as a Muggle than submit myself to the "justice" on tap in the Wizard World. Just for starters, we know that people were thrown into prison without any pretense of a trial---and I do think that this is a big, big time-bomb set to go off for later in the series. Frankly, if I'd spent years and years in Azkaban despite being innocent, just because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time (and from the wrong house at school?) or, worse, got on the wrong side of a corrupt or incompetent Auror, and the DEs cracked me out of there when they broke open Azkaban, I'd join the DEs in a red-hot second, and go for some serious revenge. Not to mention what they laughingly call "trials." As for their moral superiority---it seems to me that the three Unforgivables are Unforgivable because they're 'way too easy to misuse. I can't think of any _legitimate_ uses for the Cruciatus Curse, just for starters. While Avada Kedavra is the most _spectacular_ way to kill someone, it's far from the only route available to a sorcerer. (Tying someone up with magical ropes, or Petrifying them, and then levitating them 'way up in the air before letting them fall onto rocks; Petrifying someone and then holding them underwater; Transfiguring someone into a slug and salting him---the list goes on and on) And the Imperius Curse is also much too easy to misuse (not to mention, it would provide a goof-proof method of murdering someone without leaving clues to what one had done, as long as there were no witnesses---Imperius someone into committing suicide, or walking in front of a train, and even the gang from the CSI shows would be well and truly stumped). For that matter---_are_ the Unforgivables _literally_ Unforgivable? If, say, the DEs were storming my little home, lusting for my blood, and I began throwing AKs at them, would I _necessarily_ be thrown into Azkaban? Every legal system I know of, everywhere in the world, makes a distinction between _murder_ and killing in self-defense, and excuses the latter. To be sure, you do have to go through some serious proving that you _were_ acting in self-defense, but if this is proven to the satisfaction of the authorities, you walk. --Eric, who would love to be magical, but who doesn't like some things about the Wizard World. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 08:57:28 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:57:28 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: OOP prefix and spoiler policy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58164 Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Moderator Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Mods have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius and Azkaban." Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From Audra1976 at aol.com Mon May 19 09:01:46 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:01:46 -0400 Subject: The Catalyst to Riddle=?ISO-8859-1?B?knMgTW90aXZhdGlvbiA=?= Message-ID: <0E8D05E7.16147745.022D3A68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58165 "hermohninny" writes: <> Me: I happen to think many people are over-complicating why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry in the first place and why he wants to kill him now. Back in the day, James and Lily were a couple of very talented wizards. They were Head Boy and Head Girl at Hogwarts, weren't they? And they were on Dumbledore's side. Isn't it believable that Voldemort's only motivation for taking them out is that they represented a threat to him? So do them before they do you, right? I do think it's possible that Voldemort would have handed Lily over to Pettigrew as a reward if she had consented and stepped aside when he warned her. At least he already killed James and broke up the team, so to speak. But Voldemort didn't seem to care too strongly about sparing Lily. He just gave her one chance. No? Okay, then, Avada Kadavra! Boom. Lily died for the baby. Voldemort forgot about that ancient mother's love magic, so the next AK meant to kill the baby bounced back onto Voldemort. Whoops! Voldemort is continues to come after Harry again and again because 1.) Voldmort is an egotist and having a baby not only survive his attack, but reduce him to Vapormort in the process really hurt his pride, so revenge, and 2.) taking care of unfinished business. Back to the Evil Overlord Rules. You don't leave a kid hanging around,whose parents you killed, and wait for him to to grow up and come after you for revenge. You get him asap, while he's still young and weak, and snuff him. Does it really have to be more complicated than that? -Audra- From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 18 21:22:23 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:22:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort kills James and Lilly-why not send the Death-eaters to do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030518212223.88674.qmail@web41906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58166 iamscabberstherat wrote: Does anyone else find it curious that Voldemort went to kill the Potters himself? Why didn't he send the Death-eaters to do it? Also,I think that James and Lily might have been working in some top-secret dept. at the ministry of magic. That might explain their wealth. The Dursleys certainly didn't seem particularly well-off financially(Petunia is Lily's sister). I think that Hagrid will be killed in OOTP and that Percy will be a pawn in Voldemorts' plans. This and Pettigrews' knowledge of the Weasley household may lead to a death of one of the Weasleys. iamscabberstherat Voldermort went to kill James and Harry, he told Lilly to get out of the way. All the other Potter's are dead. Is the Potter line the last of the Gryfindor's? rhaberfield Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maialaia at yahoo.com Mon May 19 09:29:29 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 02:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evil!mcGonagall (was: Hints for HP and the Order of the Phoenix! / Mistakes / In-Reply-To: <002301c31abf$6a08c060$3d104cd5@ola> Message-ID: <20030519092929.13630.qmail@web10402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58167 --- Koticzka wrote: > Gulplum wrote: > < complete capitulation faced > with the unknown and her complete inability to run > the school in > Dumbledore's absence. I don't want to start a > feminist debate, but this > smells very bad to me.>> I just take this as one more piece of evidence that McGonagall is the "insider" that Voldemort mentions to his pack o' DeathEaters in GoF.... No one seems to be with me in my theory that she's the baddy, but hey, I perservere on my own.... ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From lumos28 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 07:34:20 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (Anita Sathe) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 00:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <1053288170.6182.10168.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030519073420.75162.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58168 Hi all This is about the people on the promo picture of OOtP (that I just found..so late). Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? -Anita --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From steinber at zahav.net.il Mon May 19 10:17:16 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:17:16 +0200 Subject: Adopted!Harry vs fanfic Message-ID: <006501c31def$e9095cc0$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 58169 To Barb and all: Sorry for having been brief to the point of being obscure. To clarify my theory: 1. Harry, Dumbledore and all vanquish Voldemort 2. Dumbledore tells Harry that when he was 1 yr old, his 18-yr-old self had appeared out of the future and saved his life, but died in the process. 3. Harry has to decide whether to go back "again." 4. What happened "the first time" on the night James and Lily died was this: 18-yr-old Harry showed up, went to Dumbeldore and told him quite a bit about the "future," then went to Godric's Hollow, but did not save his parents for some reason (any reason will do, like he was too late). Then he jumped between infant!Harry and Voldemort just as V was AKing infant!Harry, and also attacked Voldemort at the same time. The result of both spells was probably some more priori incatatum at first, but eventually, 18-yr-old Harry ended up dead, infant!Harry ended up scarred, and Voldemort ended up a wraith. How to Time-Turn 18 years? I'll let JKR decide that. She has no constraints at all. As for the rest of your complaints, Harry did not live till 35, and he blocked the AK exactly the way canon has already shown us he can. As for Lily's sacrifice - Dumbledore did not say that her sacrifice saved Harry's life. Canon still has not told us what saved his life. All we have been told is that her sacrifice protected Harry at age 11 from being physically touched by Voldemort. We have no canon whatsoever that Harry can't be AKed, even by Voldemort, just the fact that Voldemort attempted one AK against Harry that failed. Why is still a mystery. I think that this sort of forum can deal with numerous speculative details in a much briefer format than fanfic, which I am not leery of, but generally have no patience for. Another nice feature of this kind of post rather than fanfic is that one can be honest about which details could go more than one way, and explore various options, whereas fanfic, to maintain a plot, must pick one route and ignore the rest. For example, there is nothing in my theory that precludes Harry living till 35. I don't prefer that route for various thematic reasons, and because it makes for too many plot problems during Harry's 18th to 35th year, as you mentioned. However, it is still a possibility. It also allows Hermione to marry an older man (which I think would be good for her) and still ship with Harry (which I am impartial about), which is a twist that I am sure would make many people happy. The Admring Skeptic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maialaia at yahoo.com Mon May 19 10:42:20 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fawkes = Traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519104220.55609.qmail@web10411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58170 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelfish302" > > wrote: > > Considering JKR's use of meaningful names > (Voldemort, Draco, > > Narcissa, etc.), will Fawkes become a traitor like > his namesake? > > > > --Angelfish Well if you subscribe to the theory, which many do, that Dumbledore is actually a bad guy, then would Fawkes really count as a "traitor?" After all we're told he responds to "loyalty" not goodness, courage or whathaveyou.... ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 19 11:30:27 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:30:27 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58171 Hi Everyone, I posted this comment previously this week. In deep obscurity. Which I suppose is the reason it has generated no responses. THat is of course assuming that the entire list hasn't decided to never reply to my posts again :P I have noticed that something strange is generally accepted in the theories that I have read. Many are satisfied with the concept that Trelawneys *First True Prediction* was the fall of Voldemort. In contrast I would like to question this complacency among fans. JK has duped me too many times to rest my laurels on that simplistic and logical conclusion. I would like to hear suggestions from the posting list on what Trelawneys "other" premonition was. I haven't got any theories myself. What I would like to contribute is some canon to ponder. Professor Trelawney is not exactly noted for *cheerful* visions. Some may disagree but I do believe that the defeat of the ominous Dark Lord is a little too positive a prediction for Trelawney. Doom and perdition are her watermark so what chance that she could depart so fully from her usual and be the bearer of news that would cause revelling in the streets. Any replies? Valky From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 19 11:41:20 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:41:20 -0000 Subject: Fawkes = Traitor? In-Reply-To: <20030519104220.55609.qmail@web10411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, The Entwife wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelfish302" > > > > wrote: > > > Considering JKR's use of meaningful names > > (Voldemort, Draco, > > > Narcissa, etc.), will Fawkes become a traitor like > > his namesake? > > > > > > --Angelfish > > > Well if you subscribe to the theory, which many do, > that Dumbledore is actually a bad guy, then would > Fawkes really count as a "traitor?" > > After all we're told he responds to "loyalty" not > goodness, courage or whathaveyou.... > > ~Squee > Valky: Not really sure about what Fawkes leaning is in good or evil. I do have an observation to offer though that some might find interesting in this topic. Why is Fawkes at Hogwarts? We are assuming that he is Dumbledores pet, as Harry has. Yet I don't recall Dumbledore saying "Fawkes is mine.". Does Fawkes belong to Harry? Lets consider some things that may support this theory. 1 Fawkes heals Harry which could be a display of Loyalty to Harry. 2 Dumbledore has on other occassions had *Treasure* belonging to other Wizards left in his keeping, including Harry's cloak. Could Fawkes be a Potter Treasure. As I write I am thinking of a dozen arguments against the theory so I will leave it at that and ask. What do you think? Valky From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon May 19 11:42:11 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:42:11 -0000 Subject: Lily and the deal with the devil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58173 This isn't exactly a new theory, but in all the ruminating about why Voldemort would want to save Lily, is it not possible that Lily had been working for Voldemort, and that Lily had betrayed James? I don't believe that there is any Canon evidence that rules out Lily as a traitor. Lucius tells Harry that his parents were meddlesome fools, but this does not in itself rule out Lily turning bad. Supposing that Lily "realised" that James was a marked man, and came to believe that there was nothing that would save him. She might then have decided that by giving him in, she would save Harry. We already know that Voldemort "shows as little mercy to his followers as his enemies" p. 216 PS (UK edition), so once he had told Lily to step out of the way, he would not have made any greater effort to save her: her life was immaterial to him, it was Harry's he wanted. Voldemort could have led Lily to believe that if she handed him James he would spare Harry. Once this was not the case, then Lily tried to prevent him killing Harry and was herself murdered. Lily's overwhelming love for Harry could have been the reason for her betraying James. I still find it strange that in her defence of herself and Harry, she did not run as James suggested, but locked herself and Harry in his bedroom. She could have thrown Harry from the bedroom window and then made a run for it. (After all, if Neville can bounce, why not Harry). I know this does smack of movie contamination, but as it was the one scene written especially by JKR, I do believe that it is evidence of canon intent. Why did Lily just stay there? She would have known that a locked door would not have stopped Voldemort. I suppose she might have panicked, and in the heat of the moment resorted to a Muggle-defence, but I do wonder if it was simply because she did not want to hear the battle, and thought that she and Harry were not in danger. The fact that Pettigrew was a traitor would not preclude Lily from betraying James as well. I also don't think that Lily's Muggle-born status would have stopped her from this desperate act. Voldemort would not have worried who gave him James as long as he got him. I of course do not want this theory to be right. How hard it would be for Harry to realise that he was saved by a mother's love so strong that it was willing to sacrifice his father. In a way, it's a bit like the ESE! Lupin, as much as I dislike it, it remains a distinct possibility. Ali From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 19 11:43:44 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:43:44 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <20030519073420.75162.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Anita Sathe wrote: > Hi all > This is about the people on the promo picture of OOtP (that I just found..so late). > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > -Anita Valky: Someone please tell me where they are! There is so much post about this topic. I really would like to know. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 11:46:26 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:46:26 -0000 Subject: Harry, the Weasley's and the QWC Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58175 Melanie wrote: >In GoF, I think Harry was only there a couple of days, and again, >DD would have no reason to suspect real danger, despite the DE's >and the Dark Mark at the World Cup. Now that Voldemort has risen >again, though, DD's not about to let Harry go off to spend time >anywhere that he is not protected. That was my take on it, anyway. Harry was there two weeks 'would get rid of him two weeks earlier than anyone could have hoped.' [Ch.3, p.33, UK hardback GoF]. Pre QWC, when little danger was expected, Harry has one adult with him or in calling distance. Post QWC, when it's obvious that the DE's are active, he's surrounded by adult Weasley's. Bill and Charlie come with the family to Platform 9 and 3/4, despite the extreme overcrowding in the muggle taxi's. [Ch. 11 GoF] See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 for a discussion (amongst other things ;-) ) of the idea that the Weasley's are a more powerful family than Harry realises. Pip!Squeak From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 19 11:51:10 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:51:10 -0000 Subject: Lily and the deal with the devil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Voldemort would want to save Lily, is it not possible that Lily had > been working for Voldemort, and that Lily had betrayed James? Valky: I hate it hate it hate it! I can't shake down your argument that she stayed in the bedroom though. :( THere is still a great amount of mystery surrounding the night at GH. THere is hope for Lily. Terrific argument Ali. I just hate it hate it hate it. I am such a Lily supporter. :P From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 11:52:13 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:52:13 -0000 Subject: Harry, heirs and blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58177 I actually think it more likely that Arthur Weasley is the heir of Gryffindor,not Harry. The Weasley family's given names are all either based on Arthurian legend or on names used by the British Royal Family. It suggests that, like the Malfoys, they're wizarding 'royalty'. [The Malfoy's also have 'royal' names. Lucius brings to mind the 'Prince of Darkness' and Draco connects with 'Pendragon'.] This is in keeping with the 'choices, rather than abilities' theme throughout the books so far. Tom Riddle *chose* to be the Heir of Slytherin. JKR is very insistent that he descends from Slytherin via the female line; this suggests that while he may have Slytherin's blood, he may not be the legitimate Heir of Slytherin (and yes, the pun is deliberate. Sorry.) Equally, Harry has made a series of choices throughout the book. He has chosen to be a Gryffindor, chosen to fight Voldemort, chosen to return evil with good, chosen to remain a wizard. Harry is going through a 'growing-up' process where he chooses to be Gryffindor's spiritual heir. Tom Riddle went through a growing-up process where he chose to be Slytherin's spiritual heir. Or, since we won't know what Slytherin truly was until - well, maybe the next book [grin], maybe we'll find that the real Salazar Slytherin would have despised his remote descendent. Blood versus choices. Perhaps Harry, with no bloodline, is the true heir to Gryffindor (over his friend Ron, who has the bloodline). Tom Riddle, with the bloodline, is the false heir to Slytherin. Pip!Squeak From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 19 12:15:18 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:15:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Trelawney Prediction References: Message-ID: <000401c31e00$50c69250$07ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58178 > Hi Everyone, > I posted this comment previously this week. In deep obscurity. Which > I suppose is the reason it has generated no responses. > THat is of course assuming that the entire list hasn't decided to > never reply to my posts again :P > > I have noticed that something strange is generally accepted in the > theories that I have read. Many are satisfied with the concept that > Trelawneys *First True Prediction* was the fall of Voldemort. > > In contrast I would like to question this complacency among fans. > JK has duped me too many times to rest my laurels on that simplistic > and logical conclusion. > > I would like to hear suggestions from the posting list on what > Trelawneys "other" premonition was. > > I haven't got any theories myself. What I would like to contribute is > some canon to ponder. > Professor Trelawney is not exactly noted for *cheerful* visions. > Some may disagree but I do believe that the defeat of the ominous > Dark Lord is a little too positive a prediction for Trelawney. > Doom and perdition are her watermark so what chance that she could > depart so fully from her usual and be the bearer of news that would > cause revelling in the streets. > > Any replies? > Valky I do think Trelawney's prediction was connected in some way to Voldemort's downfall. It's just a matter of what exactly it said. At least three things it might have concerned are his defeat in general terms, why Harry is so important, how Harry will defeat Voldemort, or perhaps a combination of all three. In this case, I don't think it's a matter of "Is JKR throwing out a red herring?" than "It's not a matter of 'Is this correct?' but 'How is it correct?'" I don't know how understandable I was in that last statement, so let me give an example. I am also a fan of Babylon 5. In the very first episode, one of the characters relates a dream he had where his bitter enemy and he strangle each other to death 20 years in the future. He tells us that this will happen, for dreams of this nature among his people are prophetic and always come true. So we are told from Day One the outcome of two characters on the show. A couple of seasons later, we see a brief snippet from 20 years in the future, and we see the circumstances where these two characters kill each other. We'd walked into it thinking it was obvious. They hated each other. But the watching of it was quite different than we'd been led to believe. After watching that episode, the viewer was left wondering, "So how do these two get to this point?" Which gave the show another two seasons to show us enough to understand how this future scene did come about? In other words, we knew they killed each other, and we knew why, but the fun then was seeing how exactly they got there. I can see JKR pulling this. In some ways, she has already used this technique. In PS/SS, we are told that Snape hates James, and at least part of the reason is because James saved his life. In PoA, we find out more details on how James was able to save his life. But many on here have speculated, and I agree, that there is more going on here than that, and there are other reasons why Snape hates James. The fun is finding out the details. Same situation exists with that fateful night at Godric's Hollow. Returning to Trelawney's prediction. You say that she is not known for cheerful visions. But then again, this is the Trelawney who is trying to make herself sound foreboding and mysterious. A lot of times, she reminds me of one of those who has a psychic hotline. She probably looks over the records of all her students before they come to class and extrapolates from there. Let's think about her first class with Harry's group. She predicts Neville will break a cup. Neville is well-known for being clumsy and forgetful. The odds are he will break a cup, especially since she has already put that thought in his mind and made him nervous. Predicting something dreadful will happen to a student on a certain day is a little trickier, but she has put it in this girl's head that something will, so if anything bad does happen that day, she will remember it. I'm willing to bet that if Lavender (iirc) had not received that letter from home about her rabbit, no one would even have remembered that prediction, or if so, she would have come up with some other bad thing to fit the bill (maybe not quite as tragic, though). And then there's Harry. One would have to be living under a rock to not know how he got that scar and what he's famous for. Many people also speculate that Voldemort is not dead, but will come back one day. From that, it's not too hard to make predictions about dark strangers coming and wanting to kill Harry. Yes, I know she's predicted his death pretty much every day and in every way imaginable, but again, if he does end up dead someday, no matter how he dies and whether it was an accident or Voldemort actively killing him, the students will point to it and say, "See, she was right. He was hung and disemboweled right before being AK'ed and decapitated." But let's keep in mind the Trelawney that gives the true predictions is not the same Trelawney that does her version of a psychic hotline. She has no clue when she emerges from her trances what she has said, and doesn't even believe Harry when he tells her what she said. This means she has no control over what she sees when in this state. In this state, she could predict something happy or prophesize hope. Of course, she *really* wouldn't believe it if someone told her that's what she said. But, because of this, I wouldn't rule out any happy predictions. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 19 12:21:47 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:21:47 -0000 Subject: The Unforgivable Curses and killing In-Reply-To: <00e401c31de4$9bc90f60$3b570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > For that matter---_are_ the Unforgivables _literally_ > Unforgivable? If, say, the DEs were storming my little home, > lusting for my blood, and I began throwing AKs at them, would I > _necessarily_ be thrown into Azkaban? Every legal system I know of, > everywhere in the world, makes a distinction between _murder_ and > killing in self-defense, and excuses the latter. To be sure you do > have to go through some serious proving that you _were_ acting in > self-defense, but if this is proven to the satisfaction of the > authorities, you walk. Valky: I had always assumed that there was a deeper, more canonical (meant literally) basis to the word "Unforgivable" in this case. Though the story does seem to suggest that it pertains to Ministry of Law, I believe this may be simply an interpretation of the original creed by lawmen. Similar to the commandment thou shalt not steal becoming law. I am supposing that ancient Wizarding texts describe much deeper ramifications of using unforgivables. The deeper morality and virtues of the side of good in the wizarding world seem to me to be a recognition of "soul destruction" by unforgivable behaviour. Just a thought. : D From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 19 12:25:08 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:25:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Adopted!Harry vs fanfic References: <006501c31def$e9095cc0$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: <000e01c31e01$b041aac0$07ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58180 > How to Time-Turn 18 years? I'll let JKR decide that. She has no constraints at all. > As for the rest of your complaints, Harry did not live till 35, and he blocked the AK exactly the way canon has already shown us he can. As for Lily's sacrifice - Dumbledore did not say that her sacrifice saved Harry's life. Canon still has not told us what saved his life. All we have been told is that her sacrifice protected Harry at age 11 from being physically touched by Voldemort. We have no canon whatsoever that Harry can't be AKed, even by Voldemort, just the fact that Voldemort attempted one AK against Harry that failed. Why is still a mystery. > The one problem with that is that Hagrid (and whoever else came to the house) would have found the body. I believe that DD would have checked it out as well. I can see it now. "So who was the third guy? Funny, he looks a lot like James, only slightly younger." "What I find strange is that he has a scar on his forehead in the exact same place and in the exact same shape as baby Harry here. Most peculiar." Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 19 12:28:40 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:28:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Unforgivable Curses and killing References: Message-ID: <001201c31e02$2e9720d0$07ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58181 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > > For that matter---_are_ the Unforgivables _literally_ > > Unforgivable? If, say, the DEs were storming my little home, > > lusting for my blood, and I began throwing AKs at them, would I > > _necessarily_ be thrown into Azkaban? Every legal system I know of, > > everywhere in the world, makes a distinction between _murder_ and > > killing in self-defense, and excuses the latter. To be sure you do > > have to go through some serious proving that you _were_ acting in > > self-defense, but if this is proven to the satisfaction of the > > authorities, you walk. > > Valky: > I had always assumed that there was a deeper, more canonical (meant > literally) basis to the word "Unforgivable" in this case. Though the > story does seem to suggest that it pertains to Ministry of Law, I > believe this may be simply an interpretation of the original creed by > lawmen. Similar to the commandment thou shalt not steal becoming law. > I am supposing that ancient Wizarding texts describe much deeper > ramifications of using unforgivables. The deeper morality and virtues > of the side of good in the wizarding world seem to me to be a > recognition of "soul destruction" by unforgivable behaviour. To use AK, I believe you need to have the intention of killing someone. It could be used in self-defence, yes, but I think the curse is fueled by the darker aspects of oneself. I believe it's been said once before that one needs a lot of power to cast that curse, and none of the Gryffindor fourth years could do so. That's because they don't have that desire and darkness to do so. Although I wonder about Harry in the SS third year and if he could've pulled it off in the heat of the moment had he known it. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From aja_1991 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 12:41:37 2003 From: aja_1991 at yahoo.com (aja_1991) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:41:37 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Hi Everyone, > I posted this comment previously this week. In deep obscurity. Which > I suppose is the reason it has generated no responses. > THat is of course assuming that the entire list hasn't decided to > never reply to my posts again :P > > I have noticed that something strange is generally accepted in the > theories that I have read. Many are satisfied with the concept that > Trelawneys *First True Prediction* was the fall of Voldemort. > > In contrast I would like to question this complacency among fans. > JK has duped me too many times to rest my laurels on that simplistic > and logical conclusion. > > I would like to hear suggestions from the posting list on what > Trelawneys "other" premonition was. > > I haven't got any theories myself. What I would like to contribute is > some canon to ponder. > Professor Trelawney is not exactly noted for *cheerful* visions. > Some may disagree but I do believe that the defeat of the ominous > Dark Lord is a little too positive a prediction for Trelawney. > Doom and perdition are her watermark so what chance that she could > depart so fully from her usual and be the bearer of news that would > cause revelling in the streets. > > Any replies? > Valky Me (aja_1991): I'm game for this! My assumption - right or wrong - is that whatever Trelawney predicted first was what started or accelerated V's targetting of at least Harry, and possibly one or both of his parents, to begin with. Otherwise, I see no reason to belive he wouldn't simply send a squad of DEs to deal with the meddlesome fools... for some reason, he felt the need to deal with it personally. And that's why a prediction along the lines of "Harry will defeat Voldemort" in some form works. If she says Harry specifically, he's there just for him and he takes out James and Lily for trying to stop him. If she said "the son of a Potter" then he's after James and Harry, who are both the sons of a Potter. Add to that an interview in which JKR refuses to reveal what the first prediction was, and you have to assume it's critical to the plot... like as in it led to Harry being the famous orphan with a scar. Now, perhaps it was somewhat differently worded than a defeat. Perhaps it was a vanity thing. Think of the Disney movie "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs." The evil queen is told one day that she is NOT the most beautiful, and sets out to kill the one who is deemed more beautiful. V hears a prediction that somehow says that Harry will grow to become the most powerful wizard ever, more powerful than V, more powerful than even the dreaded Dumbledore. Well, can't have competition now, can we? Best take out this upstart before he can figure out how to wave a wand. And best to do it himself, to show who the most powerful really is. Perhaps the prediction was the Harry would be the key to ending the effective use of the Unforgivables, which would certainly limit V's ability to control and terrorize the WW. Not fearing an AK, Imperius, or Cruciatus means wizards can more adequately prepare for an attack and protect themselves. Also a strong motivation for V to take them out. Perhaps Lily was the one solving this problem, so James and Harry were killed to scare her in to stopping her research, or perhaps V wanted to keep Lily, not as a "gift" to a DE, but as someone who could show him how to make the Unforgiveables even more powerful (an Imperius no one can shake off, for example). And corny as it may sounds, perhaps the prediction was that Harry would lead V away from the Dark Side, thus ending his reign of terror by turning him to good. I somehow doubt Voldemort, at the height of his power achieved by use of Dark Arts, would find that end appealing. Hope this gives some ideas to others! aja_1991 From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon May 19 12:51:30 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:51:30 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: <20030516192242.71217.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > ME: Personally, knowing Ms. Rowling's perchant for introducing new places and things to us each book, this is very probably someplace where we haven't seen yet. I personally doubt it is either the Riddle House or the Shrieking Shack or anyplace we know. That would be consistant with her style and logically it is a big world out there and we have indeed been shown so little of it that it would also make sense that this, for good or ill is an entirely new place. Huggs Becky > Oh, that's entirely possibly. This is just my speculation. Mostly it seems to me, as someone else pointed out, that this building fits the description of the Riddle House perfectly. Also, this is a place we've heard of but that Harry hasn't actually been to yet (unless you count his dream). It also seems to fit exactly with Rowling's style to me--introduce something as background element in one book, only to have it play a more prominent role in one of the future books. And up until now, I've not heard any speculate that Harry would go to the Riddle house (as opposed to the usual suspects--Azkaban, St. Mungo's, etc). So if it weren't for this shot of the cover, I would have never even guessed the Riddle House and it would come as quite as surprise. From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 19 12:48:43 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:48:43 -0000 Subject: Lily and the deal with the devil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > This isn't exactly a new theory, but in all the ruminating about why Voldemort would want to save Lily, is it not possible that Lily had been working for Voldemort, and that Lily had betrayed James? It's new to me. I must not have seen it before. Ooooh, what a fun theory! It'll make people go "NO! NOT TRUE!" but then have them scrambling through canon to try and disprove it. Nice work. Just to prove that I really am crazy, I'm going to try and support AND deny your points with further evidence. That's how much I love stuff like this. :) > I don't believe that there is any Canon evidence that rules out Lily as a traitor. Lucius tells Harry that his parents were meddlesome fools, but this does not in itself rule out Lily turning bad. > Support: If V-Mort truly had such a highly-placed mole as Lily, he wouldn't have told anyone else about it, even Lucius, who, if he isn't the right-hand guy, is very highly-ranking. So, Lucius, in taunting Harry, would not have known Lily was a traitor. Denial: Lucius referring to the Potters as meddlesome fools indicates that they were actively fighting against V-Mort, not just kind of hanging around, minding their own business and having a baby that would grow up to defeat V-Mort. So, Lily seems to have been part of the fight. > Supposing that Lily "realised" that James was a marked man, and came to believe that there was nothing that would save him. She might > then have decided that by giving him in, she would save Harry. We > already know that Voldemort "shows as little mercy to his followers > as his enemies" p. 216 PS (UK edition), so once he had told Lily to > step out of the way, he would not have made any greater effort to > save her: her life was immaterial to him, it was Harry's he wanted. > Voldemort could have led Lily to believe that if she handed him > James he would spare Harry. Once this was not the case, then Lily > tried to prevent him killing Harry and was herself murdered. Support: Thank you for writing your theory to acknowledge my "He didn't try THAT hard to save Lily" concern. As has been said by many, a mother will do anything to protect her baby. Does that include turning on the husband? Especially if, perhaps, James was the one who dragged them into the fight to begin with and endangered them? Denial: How do we reconcile this with the Secret-Keeper and all the precautions they took? And again, if V-Mort was trying to kill Harry because of a threat he represented, and D-Dore figured that out, it follows that he would have told Lily and James. Surely, Lily would have realized that nothing passive -- that is, trying to cut a deal -- she could have done would have saved Harry. And we're also talking about the former Head Girl of Hogwarts. Surely she isn't so stupid as to believe V-Mort's promises? > Lily's overwhelming love for Harry could have been the reason for > her betraying James. I still find it strange that in her defence of > herself and Harry, she did not run as James suggested, but locked > herself and Harry in his bedroom. She could have thrown Harry from > the bedroom window and then made a run for it. (After all, if > Neville can bounce, why not Harry). I know this does smack of movie > contamination, but as it was the one scene written especially by > JKR, I do believe that it is evidence of canon intent. Why did Lily > just stay there? She would have known that a locked door would not > have stopped Voldemort. I suppose she might have panicked, and in > the heat of the moment resorted to a Muggle-defence, but I do wonder if it was simply because she did not want to hear the battle, and thought that she and Harry were not in danger. Support: Yeah, why DID she just stick around? The impression we get from the books and from the movie -- remember, the one scene considered canon -- is that Lily not only didn't run, but didn't try to defend herself. Denial: First, James was the one who told Lily he'd hold V-Mort off. She didn't suggest it. As far as the throwing Harry from a bedroom window, well, we don't know if he'd exhibited anything magical yet or not, but what if he was a Squib? Too risky. And again, we're talking about banking your baby's life on the trust of V-Mort's word? Nope. Don't buy that one. I could see a mother being willing to sacrifice her husband in order for her baby to live, but I would think she'd need a bit stronger guarantee than that. > I of course do not want this theory to be right. How hard it would > be for Harry to realise that he was saved by a mother's love so > strong that it was willing to sacrifice his father. In a way, it's a bit like the ESE! Lupin, as much as I dislike it, it remains a > distinct possibility. Support: Well, this would be the ultimate twist, I think. Denial: But I think the twist would make it too twisted. Lily's sacrifice is, I believe, the pivotal event in the story (not necessarily the books, but the saga itself.) One Muggle born woman, apparently just through love, gave her baby the power to defeat the most evil wizard of modern times. I do hope that is not tainted. Darrin -- But this is just too much fun. :) From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 19 12:57:08 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:57:08 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58185 > wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > I posted this comment previously this week. In deep obscurity. > Which I suppose is the reason it has generated no responses. > > THat is of course assuming that the entire list hasn't decided to > > never reply to my posts again :P > > > > I have noticed that something strange is generally accepted in the > > theories that I have read. Many are satisfied with the concept that > > Trelawneys *First True Prediction* was the fall of Voldemort. > > > > In contrast I would like to question this complacency among fans. > > JK has duped me too many times to rest my laurels on that > simplistic > > and logical conclusion. > > > > I would like to hear suggestions from the posting list on what > > Trelawneys "other" premonition was. This got me thinking about the nature of the "correct" predictions, so I re-read the passage in PoA, pg. 238 "The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever before. Tonight... before midnight... the serve... will set out... to rejoin... his master..." Notice how unspecific it is? She doesn't say, or doesn't know, WHO the servant is. And the "chains," which people would naturally assume mean Sirius, imprisoned in Azkaban, are more metaphorical. Pettigrew has been "chained" to an existence as a rat. I wonder if the first prediction was just as unspecific, to the point where people didn't get its full meaning until after V-Mort targeted the Potters, and maybe not until after he fell. She could have predicted that he would fall, but in terms of something like "Many will fall, but the one thought most helpless, infused with strength, will live" or something like that. Darrin -- Or this could be JKR playing with us and her real first prediction was that Krum would catch the Snitch but Bulgaria would still lose. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 13:23:02 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:23:02 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Hi Everyone, > I posted this comment previously this week. In deep obscurity. > Which I suppose is the reason it has generated no responses. > THat is of course assuming that the entire list hasn't decided to > never reply to my posts again :P > Yes, I get those 'no replies' times as well. I always choose to believe that it's because my posts are so stunningly brilliant that no one can think of any possible argument against them ;-) > I have noticed that something strange is generally accepted in the > theories that I have read. Many are satisfied with the concept > that Trelawneys *First True Prediction* was the fall of Voldemort. > > In contrast I would like to question this complacency among fans. > JK has duped me too many times to rest my laurels on that > simplistic and logical conclusion. > > I would like to hear suggestions from the posting list on what > Trelawneys "other" premonition was. > > I haven't got any theories myself. What I would like to contribute > is some canon to ponder. > Professor Trelawney is not exactly noted for *cheerful* visions. > Some may disagree but I do believe that the defeat of the ominous > Dark Lord is a little too positive a prediction for Trelawney. > Doom and perdition are her watermark so what chance that she could > depart so fully from her usual and be the bearer of news that > would cause revelling in the streets. I think Trelawney's first prediction *was* concerned with Voldemort's fall; but as you say, it wasn't a cheerful, happy prediction. More along the lines of 'The Dark Lord will gain victory for a time, but there will arise from the Potter line one greater and more terrible.' That should really make the entire WW ... errr ... form an orderly queue for the bathroom. Greater and more terrible than Voldemort? What *are* we facing? I'm basing this on the canon that Ollivander suggests that 'we must expect great things from you, Mr Potter ... After all, He Who Must Not Be Named did great things - terrible, yes, but great.' [PS/SS Ch. 5 p. 65 UK paperback], plus the canon that Dumbledore is described as 'terrible' in GoF Ch. 35 - 'the look upon Dumbledore's face ... was more terrible than Harry could ever have imagined.' [GoF Ch. 35 pp. 589-590 UK paperback]. A prophecy along these lines would also explain why Voldemort wanted to kill off the Potters, why Dumbledore would rather leave Harry with an abusive muggle family than a kind wizard one, why *both* Snape and McGonagall come down on Harry's rule-breaking like a ton of bricks in PS/SS, why Dumbledore's challenges to Harry (if you take the MAGIC DISHWASHER view) are *moral* ones. [The stone can only be retrieved by someone who truly doesn't want it. Harry has to decide for himself to use his Parseltongue gift to save the school. Harry has to decide for himself whether to kill the person who betrayed his parents.] Harry is going to be a great and terrible wizard. 'Great and terrible' because he's so evil and powerful (like Voldemort) or so good and powerful (like Dumbledore can be)? Having beaten Voldemort to a draw when a baby, it's already obvious that he's the one the prophecy talks about. What is not obvious is whether he's going to be good or evil. So it's safer to leave him with the Dursley's. For all their faults, they will *not* let Harry grow up with the view that he's Mr.Incredibly Powerful Wizard. It's safer to let Snape be a living example of unfair, sadistic behaviour ('You do *not* want to grow up like me, do you Potter?'). Plus Snape, as a reformed DE, is likely to be very astute in spotting the beginnings of an 'I can do anything I like because I'm the great Harry Potter' attitude. McGonagall, meanwhile, can play 'good cop' to Snape's 'bad cop'. And Dumbledore can stay more in the background. Guiding, testing and teaching Harry. Being the sort of wise and powerful wizard (with a good sense of humour) that Harry would like to be when he grows up. I suspect that Trelawney's *first* prediction was made to a very select audience. Of our current cast of characters, Snape would make most sense. Snape because he is certainly reporting to Dumbledore in GoF and could thus reasonably be expected to have reported the first genuine prophecy to Dumbledore, *but* may have also had to report it (in his DE role) to Voldemort (especially if he wasn't alone at the time). It would also explain why Dumbledore neatly sidesteps Harry's question of 'Why does Snape hate me?'[paraphrase] in PS/SS Ch. 17 by directing the answer into a discussion of Snape's hatred of James Potter. 'Snape hates you because he's scared stiff you're going to turn out worse than Voldemort,' probably wouldn't be a very good answer to give to an eleven year old child. McGonagall, in the first chapter of PS/SS, is wondering what's so special about Harry Potter. This suggests she hasn't heard anything about a prophecy. Another clue is that she sees Trelawney as a fraud - not quite so likely if she'd been present during an actual, genuine prophetic trance. If Voldemort also knows about a prophecy that Harry will be 'greater', then that explains why he is both wary of Harry and anxious to use his blood in the graveyard scene (again, see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044). Harry is the roadblock on the way to the thousand year Voldereich. Using his blood will mean that some of this 'greater' wizard's power will get inside Voldemort. Killing him, on the other hand, is likely to be tricky ... Pip!Squeak From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon May 19 13:27:21 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:27:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Trelawney Prediction Message-ID: <1ad.146ef3c4.2bfa35b9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58187 In a message dated 5/19/2003 7:43:12 AM Central Standard Time, aja_1991 at yahoo.com writes: > V hears a prediction that somehow says that Harry > will grow to become the most powerful wizard ever, more powerful than > V, more powerful than even the dreaded Dumbledore. Well, can't have > competition now, can we? Best take out this upstart before he can > figure out how to wave a wand. And best to do it himself, to show > who the most powerful really is. > Well that certainly fits with Voldemort's need to use Harry in his ritual when really any witch or wizard's blood will do to resurrect him (even if it doesn't give him the 'protection' of Harry's blood. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 19 13:38:55 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:38:55 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aja_1991" wrote: > > And corny as it may sounds, perhaps the prediction was that Harry > would lead V away from the Dark Side, thus ending his reign of > terror by turning him to good. I somehow doubt Voldemort, at the > height of his power achieved by use of Dark Arts, would find that > end appealing. > Hope this gives some ideas to others! > Valky: I'd like to go with this suggestion and relate a thought that has been floating in my mind for a few days now. I am starting to bend towards an impression that a redemption for Tom Riddle maybe in the minds of many. I am seeing the gleam in Dumbledore's eye at the end of GOF as a triumph not of a conquering nature, but a compassionate one. The supposed reason LV took Harry's blood was because of the touch of selfless love that resided in it. Allude to a statement by DD " If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand it is Love" I am suggesting that LV did not recognise the protection in Harry's blood as anything else but power. It was more than that, but blinded by his vision of dominance LV did not see it for what it was. THe way I see it Tom Riddle as a young boy was seeking love and kinship. He was lured by the pursuit of absolute power and discarded the boy he once was to become Voldemort. As Voldemort he rejected love and even hated it. I am thinking that "love" has never penetrated the hard shell of Voldemort since he shed Tom Riddle. Perhaps, the triumph is that Lily's love for Harry now runs in Voldemorts veins and he may no longer be able to hide Tom from the desire he once had. Maybe there is a hope in DD that the wide-eyed innocent that stepped of the boat in 1938 may be able to struggle back into existence. hmmmm wonder if that makes any sense Valky From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon May 19 13:42:25 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:42:25 -0000 Subject: Adopted!Harry vs fanfic In-Reply-To: <006501c31def$e9095cc0$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58189 The Admiring Skeptic wrote: 1. Harry, Dumbledore and all vanquish Voldemort Me: Do you mean when Harry does this at 18? This is still a little unclear. 2. Dumbledore tells Harry that when he was 1 yr old, his 18-yr-old self had appeared out of the future and saved his life, but died in the process. Me: You still haven't explained how Dumbledore knows this. This was what I meant by fanfic writing forcing a person to flesh out everything; someone writing a fic that included this would be ripped apart by reviewers demanding to know how Dumbledore came by this information. 3. Harry has to decide whether to go back "again." 4. What happened "the first time" on the night James and Lily died was this: 18-yr-old Harry showed up, went to Dumbeldore and told him quite a bit about the "future," then went to Godric's Hollow, but did not save his parents for some reason (any reason will do, like he was too late). Then he jumped between infant!Harry and Voldemort just as V was AKing infant!Harry, and also attacked Voldemort at the same time. The result of both spells was probably some more priori incatatum at first, but eventually, 18-yr-old Harry ended up dead, infant!Harry ended up scarred, and Voldemort ended up a wraith. Me: This still doesn't add up. If infant!Harry was protected, he shouldn't have a scar of any sort. According to Dumbledore it is a curse scar, and years later, it hurts when Voldemort is being particularly evil and also connects Harry to him so that he is essentially a witness to Frank Bryce's murder. From GoF, we know that Harry and Voldemort attacking each other simultaneously results in their wands locking, not curses being delivered to either of them. And why would the results be so different? Why would Harry be dead-dead, but Voldemort end up as a wraith? If Harry simply came between Voldemort and his infant self, assuming that Voldemort can kill the eighteen year old version of Harry, then Harry should simply be deadm nothing should happen to Voldemort, and infant!Harry should have no scar. If Harry is attacking at the same time, their wands will lock and neither one's spell reaches the other. This theory still throws everything we know in canon out the window. TAS: How to Time-Turn 18 years? I'll let JKR decide that. She has no constraints at all. As for the rest of your complaints, Harry did not live till 35, and he blocked the AK exactly the way canon has already shown us he can. Me: No, he doesn't. Canon does not have him 'blocking' AK. It has him acquiring a scar because of it and bouncing it back at Voldemort. This theory bears no resemblance whatsoever to canon. TAS: As for Lily's sacrifice - Dumbledore did not say that her sacrifice saved Harry's life. Me: Well, technically he does say that. He says, "Your mother died to save you." But I understand that you are saying that there isn't an explicit statement to the effect that her sacrifice caused the AK to rebound onto Voldemort. It is, however IMPLICIT, especially in combination with the above statment from Dumbledore. TAS: Canon still has not told us what saved his life. All we have been told is that her sacrifice protected Harry at age 11 from being physically touched by Voldemort. We have no canon whatsoever that Harry can't be AKed, even by Voldemort, just the fact that Voldemort attempted one AK against Harry that failed. Why is still a mystery. Me: The rest of Dumbledore's speech is the implicit statement of protection: "He didn't realise that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign...to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection for ever. It is in your very skin. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed and ambition, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good." This strongly implies that this protection was present when Voldemort attempted to AK Harry, meaning that he could not be touched by Voldemort neither by his hand or a spell, especially a spell designed to kill Harry. TAS: I think that this sort of forum can deal with numerous speculative details in a much briefer format than fanfic, which I am not leery of, but generally have no patience for. Another nice feature of this kind of post rather than fanfic is that one can be honest about which details could go more than one way, and explore various options, whereas fanfic, to maintain a plot, must pick one route and ignore the rest. Me: While it is true that you have to pick one route and go with it in fanfic, you also have to fully flesh out things like how Dumbledore would know that Harry had traveled back in time, saved himself in infancy, caused Voldemort to become a wraith and died in the execution of all of this. TAS: For example, there is nothing in my theory that precludes Harry living till 35. Me: Um, yeah, there is. The part about him dying at 18 sort of precludes his living until 35. Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: The one problem with that is that Hagrid (and whoever else came to the house) would have found the body. I believe that DD would have checked it out as well. I can see it now. "So who was the third guy? Funny, he looks a lot like James, only slightly younger." "What I find strange is that he has a scar on his forehead in the exact same place and in the exact same shape as baby Harry here. Most peculiar." Me: Good point, Kelly! (Although I still think that there would be no reason for Harry to have a scar if he was protected in this way.) What would happen to the body? If the older Harry had died at Godric's Hollow, there'd be some trace of him. Even if Dumbledore had gone to Godric's Hollow first and disposed of it, which canon also does not suggest (it doesn't seem that he's been to GH at all), it's still unclear how he would know that it was 18-year-old Harry who'd traveled back through time (when dead it would probably be hard to pinpoint his age except to say that he would probably look like he was somewhere between 16 and 21) not to mention it would be impossible for Dumbledore to know that the reason he'd died was that he was protecting his younger self. The level of omniscience necessary for Dumbledore to know all of these things borders on the god-like. I like the guy, but I'm not yet ready to elevate him to this level. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon May 19 13:51:23 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:51:23 -0000 Subject: Lily and the deal with the devil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58190 I, Ali said:- I don't believe that there is any Canon evidence that rules out Lily as a traitor. Lucius tells Harry that his parents were meddlesome fools, but this does not in itself rule out Lily turning bad. Darrin replied: Support: If V-Mort truly had such a highly-placed mole as Lily, he wouldn't have told anyone else about it, even Lucius, who, if he isn't the right-hand guy, is very highly-ranking. So, Lucius, in taunting Harry, would not have known Lily was a traitor. Ali again: At this point though, you have to ask why Voldemort didn't taunt Harry with Lily's betrayal when he was doing his evil overlord stuff in the graveyard. However, Voldemort did have rather alot on his mind then, and well, it wouldn't suit JKR's purpose to reveal that little gem in GoF, would it? Darrin: Denial: Lucius referring to the Potters as meddlesome fools indicates that they were actively fighting against V-Mort, not just kind of hanging around, minding their own business and having a baby that would grow up to defeat V-Mort. So, Lily seems to have been part of the fight. Ali: I think that the Potters (Pl.) were involved in the fight against Voldemort. However, that does not mean that Lily didn't betray James. To take a current affairs example, a high ranking IRA member has only recently been outed as a spy for the British government. For a spy to be truly effective, isn't it the higher the better? I can't really see Lily as a spy or a mole though. Perhaps it's because it's so anathema to the way that we - and Harry - wish to his parents, namely as heroes who died for their beliefs and their son. I imagine her sole (and enormous) act of betrayal was in handing over James to Voldemort. Arguably, this would not have been out of cowardice or change in beliefs, but desperation. Darrin again: But I think the twist would make it too twisted. Lily's sacrifice is, I believe, the pivotal event in the story (not necessarily the books, but the saga itself.) One Muggle born woman, apparently just through love, gave her baby the power to defeat the most evil wizard of modern times. I do hope that is not tainted. I hope you're right, but the more I think about it, the less "Lilly- white", Lily appears to be. Ali From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 19 13:57:36 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:57:36 -0000 Subject: Harry, heirs and blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > I actually think it more likely that Arthur Weasley is the heir of > Gryffindor,not Harry. The Weasley family's given names are all > either based on Arthurian legend or on names used by the British > Royal Family. It suggests that, like the Malfoys, they're > wizarding 'royalty'. Valky: It makes a lot of sense to associate the Weasley's with Gryffindor over Harry. The sorting hat makes a clear point of how obvious the choice of Gryff is for Ron. THis seems to indicate a strong relationship between Weasley's and Gryffindor. My only question is how did this royalty become so poor, and the Slytherin line so rich. Has the Gryff line sacrificed its all for honour? By the way I always pictured Godric gryffindor with Red Hair. It was just the image his name conjured up. How many of us can honestly say that we didn't hmmm? From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon May 19 13:58:27 2003 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (edisbevan) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:58:27 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58192 One thought: When Lupin was periodically ill where did he hide out? Snape summons Lupin by fire when he catches Harry with the marauderers map. So Flu travel is possible within Hogwarts at least if not between Unplottable Hogwarts and the rest of the Flu network. What room with a fire was Lupin resting in... Possibly unconnected thought. What was at the end of the second secret tunnel discoverable on the map? The one that had collapsed the year before according to what Fred and George say when they give Harry the map... Edis From tminton at deckerjones.com Mon May 19 13:11:27 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:11:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Winky thoughts......could possibly turn into OOP thougts Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE13E213@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58193 Ersatz Harry said: One last thought -- why would Winky (I think it was Winky) say that Bagman was a bad wizard yet fail to recognize Evil!Barty right under her own nose? Was this simply misplaced loyalty? Now me Tonya: You know that is a good point!! Thinking about it I bet it is just misplaced loyalty because several times it has been said that House elves have their own magic and she knew he was out of hand at the World Cup because she bound herself to him to try and stop him. I think she really cares about him. "Tonya" From heidit at netbox.com Mon May 19 15:10:47 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:10:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58194 You can always find news and images over on the-leaky-cauldron.org - scroll down on the main page for some great high-res scans! -----Original Message----- From: "M.Clifford" Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:43:44 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP Real-To: "M.Clifford" --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Anita Sathe wrote: > Hi all > This is about the people on the promo picture of OOtP (that I just found..so late). > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > -Anita Valky: Someone please tell me where they are! There is so much post about this topic. I really would like to know. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From petalla at express56.com Mon May 19 15:35:43 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:35:43 -0000 Subject: Bat!Snape WAS: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: <15e.2013e685.2bf9c6de@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > Peggy says: > > > I really just > > don't know. I do think he is at least an animagus bat. JKR has said > > that the animals that the characters do turn into reflect their > > personalities, and there are many bat references that surround the > > charatcter that is Snape. > > I say: > > Well, if he is he's unregistered. Remember in PoA when Hermione went and > looked up the animagus list? If Snape had been on there she certainly > would've mentioned it. > > ~Cassie~ Heya Cassie, I don't have the texts in front of me right now, and I don't remember her mentioning any names at all that were on that list. There are many times within the cannon that things are left unsaid, and/or interrupted. This is one of those things. Dumbledore was a transfiguration teacher before he became headmaster of Hogwarts. If MacGonnigal is an animagus (kitty), would it not follow that Dumbledore is one as well (especially because his name comes from the Old English word Bumblebee). There is no proof that Snape was or was not on that list. We don't even know if MacGonnigal is on it! ~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From shokoono at gmx.de Mon May 19 12:52:03 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (Carolin M?nkemeyer) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:52:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's protection saving Harry References: Message-ID: <003201c31e08$23c52480$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58196 I really do think it was her selfsacrifice, because in PoA Harry hears her last moments in life again and again ... Of course he could just have heared but in PS Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort doesn't understand love and that Lily's love was so strong that it left something like an invisible mark on Harry. I mean she rather died because she wanted to protect her beloved son instead of running away and saving her own life... I think this is enough prove ... ;-) yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Mon May 19 14:17:55 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:17:55 -0000 Subject: A little more on HIS SWORD (Was Re: Royal!Harry with an acronym) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > > Last night I got to spend a little while hunting through CoS for some > clues, though I haven't yet done this with the other books. Before I > mention what I found, I have to note that no good (or bad) theory is > complete without an acronym. So I offer up HIS SWORD (Harry Is Some > Secret Wizard Of "Royal" Descent). Feel free to just use Royal!Harry > if that's easier to remember, or maybe MerlinHeir!Harry. Not much canon evidence in SS/PS supporting the HIS SWORD theory, though there was one interesting little item in the very first chapter. Prior to Hagrid's arrival with Harry, Dumbledore and McGonagall are talking about the Potters and Voldemort. During that conversation, Dumbledore refers to Voldemort having powers that he (DD) would never have. McGonagall disputes this, saying that DD is too "noble" to use them. In the US version, the word "noble" is italicized. While I haven't really tried to determine this, I think I have sometimes noted that italicized words are clues to some of the abstract notions that are important in the book. I seem to recall, for example, that Ron says something to Hermione in PoA concerning her schedule of either classes or exams, something like "There isn't enough time", with the word "time" italicized. Another little bit of support for HIS SWORD is Voldemort's insistence on using Harry's blood in GoF. Since Riddle/Voldemort finds it necessary to point out that the blood of Slytherin runs through his veins, he may have some warped notion that adding Harry's blood to his veins will legitimate him in some way. Takes the notion of "blood royal" a bit literallly, I'd have to say. Onward to continuing my combing through PoA... Of course, I won't be surprised if this all turns out to be a STRETCH (Some Theory, Really Elaborate, That Can't Hold). Ersatz Harry, who was reminded last night of Trelaney's Christmas feast prediction in PoA that the first to rise from the table of 13 would be the first to die From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon May 19 15:44:54 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:44:54 +0000 Subject: Bat!Snape WAS: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58198 >Heya Cassie, >I don't have the texts in front of me right now, and I don't remember >her mentioning any names at all that were on that list. There are >many times within the cannon that things are left unsaid, and/or >interrupted. This is one of those things. >Dumbledore was a transfiguration teacher before he became headmaster >of Hogwarts. If MacGonnigal is an animagus (kitty), would it not >follow that Dumbledore is one as well (especially because his name >comes from the Old English word Bumblebee). >There is no proof that Snape was or was not on that list. We don't >even know if MacGonnigal is on it! > Hermione said she looked up McGonigal on the list after the lesson on Animagi, and that McGonigal was the only registered Animagus in this century. This does not, of course, rule out Dumbledore, who may well have been registered in the last century, but it *does* rule out Snape as a (registered) Animagus, since we know he is young enough to have been a contemporary of James Potter. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 19 15:47:06 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:47:06 -0000 Subject: Lily and the deal with the devil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58199 > Ali again: > > At this point though, you have to ask why Voldemort didn't taunt > Harry with Lily's betrayal when he was doing his evil overlord stuff in the graveyard. However, Voldemort did have rather alot on his mind then, and well, it wouldn't suit JKR's purpose to reveal that little gem in GoF, would it? Moving away from author intent, V-Mort probably wouldn't reveal that one yet because he might not fully trust his DEs AND because he might have other spies out there in highly placed positions. If a DE leaked -- I don't think Harry escaping was something he thought would happen -- and D-Dore got ahold of it, D-Dore would quite reasonably go on a full-fledged hunt for other spies. > I can't really see Lily as a spy or a mole though. Perhaps it's > because it's so anathema to the way that we - and Harry - wish to > his parents, namely as heroes who died for their beliefs and their > son. I imagine her sole (and enormous) act of betrayal was in > handing over James to Voldemort. Arguably, this would not have been > out of cowardice or change in beliefs, but desperation. For this to work, you have -- it's your theory, not mine, so you do the work :) -- to work out how she might have done it. We know that Pettigrew gave up the secret. But did Lily as well? Did Lily first? Because if Pettigrew already had given up the information, V-Mort doesn't need Lily and wouldn't make any deals. And how exactly did she contact V-Mort to offer him this deal? Because for her to be a betrayer, to me, it would have to be something that took place before that night in Godric's Hollow. A deal would have had to have been made earlier. > Darrin again: > > But I think the twist would make it too twisted. Lily's > sacrifice is, I believe, the pivotal event in the story (not > necessarily the books, but the saga itself.) One Muggle born woman, apparently just through love, gave her baby the power to defeat the most evil wizard of modern times. I do hope that is not tainted. > > I hope you're right, but the more I think about it, the less "Lilly- > white", Lily appears to be. Yeah, but be careful. There is no canon ruling out Lily as the traitor, but there is no canon really pointing to her as well. Basing a theory on the "canon doesn't rule it out" principle is fine, so lon as you know that's your hook. I don't see how she can "appear" to be less good after reading the same canon over and over. The canon doesn't change. Just thinking about it more doesn't make it more damning to Lily. Darrin From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Mon May 19 14:19:08 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:19:08 -0000 Subject: OOP: Lupin's Hideout and Caved in tunnel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "edisbevan" wrote: > One thought: > > When Lupin was periodically ill where did he hide out? Linda: I always thought that he was hiding out in the shreiking shack. I believe that Black was hiding in the forbidden forest so they probably would not have run into each other. > Snape summons Lupin by fire when he catches Harry with the > marauderers map. So Flu travel is possible within Hogwarts at least > if not between Unplottable Hogwarts and the rest of the Flu network. > What room with a fire was Lupin resting in... Linda: There is no canon to suggest that Lupin was "ill" at the time of that event. Therefore, Snape probably just summoned him through his office fire. > Possibly unconnected thought. What was at the end of the second > secret tunnel discoverable on the map? The one that had collapsed the > year before according to what Fred and George say when they give > Harry the map... Linda: We know from Fred and George that it led somewhere in Hogsmead, but not exactly where. It could have no importance at all, or, as JKR so often does, be very important to a later plot line. We won't know for sure until after book seven. -Linda From petalla at express56.com Mon May 19 16:12:43 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:12:43 -0000 Subject: MoM Regs?/Question: Was:Bat!Snape WAS: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58201 > > Hermione said she looked up McGonigal on the list after the lesson on > Animagi, and that McGonigal was the only registered Animagus in this > century. This does not, of course, rule out Dumbledore, who may well have > been registered in the last century, but it *does* rule out Snape as a > (registered) Animagus, since we know he is young enough to have been a > contemporary of James Potter. > > > Janet Anderson Thanks Janet, Did not remember that! OK--so we know there is one registered animagi. Thanks to Rita, James,and Peter we know that there are at least a few who are not registered. It seems to be a trend not to register, and the MoM does not seem to really enforce this one. Is this something that they are chosing to ignore for a reason? How many other unregistered animagi are there? Could this be part of the story lines for the next books? I think it would be fun to think about what animals Harry/Ron/Hermione could or would change into. From what we know about their personalities, what animal do you think would fit each of these? ~~~~~~~Peggy From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Mon May 19 16:44:11 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:44:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Lupin's Hideout and Caved in tunnel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1053362651.3ec909db87831@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 58202 Quoting Linda : > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "edisbevan" > wrote: > > One thought: > > > > When Lupin was periodically ill where did he hide out? > > Linda: > I always thought that he was hiding out in the shreiking shack. Amber: When he was in wolf form, Lupin would, I believe the quote is "curl up in his office, a harmless wolf." -- Amber ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon May 19 16:52:39 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:52:39 -0000 Subject: Surprises in OOP (Guardian article) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58203 Courtesy of the Leaky Cauldron (www.the-leaky-cauldron.org) I read the following Guardian article by Natasha Walter: books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,958756,00.html I was struck by this statement; "With the biggest sales in publishing history to protect, the premium put on secrecy is understandable, but it is also a bit of a joke, because the last thing that anyone wants when they finally open their copy on June 21 is a real surprise. A series of minor jolts, yes - we need enough reversals and revelations to keep us turning the hundreds of pages. But we also expect everything to work out according to the well-known pattern: Hogwarts threatened, Harry to the rescue, Voldemort thwarted, Slytherins worsted. Harry Potter has already become a reassuring symbol of stability in a shaky world and the industry Rowling started is now so vast that the onus on her is not to take a leap into the dark, but to deliver another slice of the same lucrative cake." Discuss. David From drdara at yahoo.com Mon May 19 16:56:36 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MoM Regs/ who are the other 6 registered Animagi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519165636.99923.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58204 Peggy said: > > > > Hermione said she looked up McGonigal on the list > after the lesson > on > > Animagi, and that McGonigal was the only > registered Animagus in > this > > century. DAnielle here: Pg. 351 pb us edition POA, " .... and I went and looked Prof. Mcgonagall up on the register, and there have been only seven Animagi this century, and Pettigrew wasn't on the list--" Where does it say that Mcgonagall is the only Animagi. Hermione says there is only 7 registered ones. Mcgonagall being one of them, who is the other 6?? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jodel at aol.com Mon May 19 17:03:44 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:03:44 EDT Subject: Harry, heirs and blood Message-ID: <63.1d1c3c0a.2bfa6870@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58205 Bluesqueak comments; Tom Riddle went through a growing-up process where he chose to be Slytherin's spiritual heir. Or, since we won't know what Slytherin truly was until - well, maybe the next book [grin], maybe we'll find that the real Salazar Slytherin would have despised his remote descendent. To which I (JOdel) reply; Indeed, given that Riddle was raised entirely in the Muggle world and his *only* link to the wizarding world was one of blood -- which he neither chose nor had any awareness of -- Salizar would probably have regarded him as one of those "children with no connection to the wizarding world" who he distrusted and did not wish to see at Hogwarts in the first case. Now, how ironic is that? -JOdel From petalla at express56.com Mon May 19 17:05:31 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:05:31 -0000 Subject: MoM Regs/ who are the other 6 registered Animagi? In-Reply-To: <20030519165636.99923.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero wrote: > > Peggy said: > > > > > > Hermione said she looked up McGonigal on the list > > after the lesson > > on > > > Animagi, and that McGonigal was the only > > registered Animagus in > > this > > > century. > > DAnielle here: > Pg. 351 pb us edition POA, " .... and I went and > looked Prof. Mcgonagall up on the register, and there > have been only seven Animagi this century, and > Pettigrew wasn't on the list--" That's what I thought DAnielle---I could not be certain because I don't have the books with me right now. I knew there was some mystery there. She never does say who else was on the list. We have no idea who is registered--and who is not. That is what I thought I remembered. Thanks! ~~~~~~~Peggy > Where does it say that Mcgonagall is the only Animagi. > Hermione says there is only 7 registered ones. > Mcgonagall being one of them, who is the other 6?? > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com From petalla at express56.com Mon May 19 17:13:18 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:13:18 -0000 Subject: MoM Regs/ who are the other 6 registered Animagi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peggybaratto" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero > wrote: > > > > Peggy said: > > > > > > > > Hermione said she looked up McGonigal on the list > > > after the lesson > > > on > > > > Animagi, and that McGonigal was the only > > > registered Animagus in > > > this > > > > century. > > > > DAnielle here: > > Pg. 351 pb us edition POA, " .... and I went and > > looked Prof. Mcgonagall up on the register, and there > > have been only seven Animagi this century, and > > Pettigrew wasn't on the list--" > That's what I thought DAnielle---I could not be certain because I > don't have the books with me right now. I knew there was some > mystery there. > She never does say who else was on the list. We have no idea who is > registered--and who is not. That is what I thought I remembered. > Thanks! > ~~~~~~~Peggy PS: It was Jannet who said the first quote on this message DAnielle.- -I was saying that I beleive that Snape is an animagus. It seems to me that it is very possible--Even plausable. We don't really know if he is a vampire/dhampire (it really could be a red herring)--but there are many comparisons between him and a bat. ~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon May 19 17:21:19 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:21:19 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MoM Regs/ who are the other 6 registered Animagi? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58208 >DAnielle here: >Pg. 351 pb us edition POA, " .... and I went and >looked Prof. Mcgonagall up on the register, and there >have been only seven Animagi this century, and >Pettigrew wasn't on the list--" > >Where does it say that Mcgonagall is the only Animagi. >Hermione says there is only 7 registered ones. >Mcgonagall being one of them, who is the other 6?? > Oops. I remembered it wrong (I'm at work and the books are at home). So technically Snape *could* have been on the list -- but I think Hermione would have mentioned it. Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From petalla at express56.com Mon May 19 17:33:06 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:33:06 -0000 Subject: MoM Regs/ who are the other 6 registered Animagi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > >DAnielle here: > >Pg. 351 pb us edition POA, " .... and I went and > >looked Prof. Mcgonagall up on the register, and there > >have been only seven Animagi this century, and > >Pettigrew wasn't on the list--" > > > >Where does it say that Mcgonagall is the only Animagi. > >Hermione says there is only 7 registered ones. > >Mcgonagall being one of them, who is the other 6?? > > > > Oops. I remembered it wrong (I'm at work and the books are at home). So > technically Snape *could* have been on the list -- but I think Hermione > would have mentioned it. > > > Janet Anderson > Janet, Hermione keeps a lot of her information to herself. She does this not only to build suspence within the story--but also because she is quite an inteligent little girl. If they want to know who is on the list, they can look it up themselves. If you remember in PoA, she knew Lupin was a werewolf because of the Snape essay. She was the only student who actually did it. Yes, she was arguing with Ron and Harry at the time, but she did not give up the information that she gained. It is not unlike her to keep the information that she found on the list to herself. It was also not necessary for her to reveal the others that were registered at that time. She was looking for Rita-- what was important was that Rita was not on the list, not who was. ~~~~~~~~~Peggy From dorigen at hotmail.com Mon May 19 17:37:56 2003 From: dorigen at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:37:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MoM Regs/ who are the other 6 registered Animagi? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58210 >Hermione keeps a lot of her information to herself. She does this >not only to build suspence within the story--but also because she is >quite an inteligent little girl. If they want to know who is on the >list, they can look it up themselves. That would apply if the people were just any people, but I think if it were *Snape* she'd have mentioned it. Snape looms large in the Trio's lives, and not in a good way. (I think the reason she didn't mention Lupin being a werewolf until things got tense is because she likes him and doesn't have the prejudices that people raised in the wizarding world do.) Janet Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * An ordinary person says, "You have a face that would stop a clock." A diplomat says, "When I look at you, time stands still." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon May 19 18:17:52 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:17:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House elves and the multi species WW References: <1053288170.6182.10168.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001101c31e32$f670ede0$3c4d6551@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 58211 Jazmyn wrote: >Wizards do not consider house elves to be humans, thus they could very >well feel they are possessions, such as livestock or pets. Yes, even >slaves. The more evil types, such as the DEs likely consider muggles as >'animals' too. If it were not for the MoM, muggles would be in constant >danger from members of the WW who don't share muggle views on slavery or > treatment of sentient creatures. I think that wizards don't consider house elves to be human because they're not. For me, one of the interesting things about the WW is that it is a place where there _are_ different humanoid species, some of whom can interbreed (eg giants and humans) but possibly others who can't. Ethically, I wonder if we would have done any better in our world if we weren't the only members of our genus. And I suspect we wouldn't have. We would probably have treated giants the same way that the WW did (Jack the Giant Killer, anyone?) >Yes, its not politically correct by muggle standards to keep intelligent >creatures as pets, slaves or even as livestock, which is why Hermione is >more shocked then those raised in the WW. But I'm still not convinced that house elves _are_ pets, slaves, or livestock. Though I agree (and Dobby confirms it) that the DEs do regard them as animals They are obviously more than animals. >As for house elves. they appear to be either breed or created by magic >originally as servants, possibly with the loyalty and slavish attitude >built in, which is why they are so happy being slaves and so unwilling >to leave this state. Its against their nature to not be slaves, thus >creating horrible conflict within them when this is challenged. (i.e. >Dobby wants to do the right thing, but his programing is creating >conflict, thus he punishes himself) Though it's also difficult to consider how a house elf might live in a "state of nature". Possibly their own evolution was bound up with the development of the wizard gene in humans and they have evolved so that their natural state is one of doing housework. It's not that they have to have it beaten into them as baby elves, I think they are _born_ (or hatched, or however) hard wired to keep the place clean, do the cooking, and so on. The WW has regularised this and bureaucratised it (as it has so much else) perhaps partly to make sure that elves stay safely within the WW and don't suddenly pop up in muggle houses (folklore suggests that they used to in days gone by...). >We should not pretend that the WW is a happy little place, whose people >are superior to humans in every way. They can be just as evil as >muggles.. even more so as 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'. Making A metaphor perhaps for how we have sometimes treated disabled people in our own world? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon May 19 18:24:14 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:24:14 -0000 Subject: Surprises in OOP (Guardian article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58212 David said, quoting part of article in The Guardian, > I was struck by this statement; > > "With the biggest sales in publishing history to protect, the > premium put on secrecy is understandable, but it is also a bit of a > joke, because the last thing that anyone wants when they finally > open their copy on June 21 is a real surprise. I think this reflects the rather lamentable emphasis placed on numbers - hitting the top of the best seller list, selling 5 gazillion CDs in the first week, grossing $500 tragillion in the first weekend of a new film. Yes, the Potter books have sold like crazy, but I despair at thinking that Rowling (or any writer/actor/musician worth their salt) would say, "Hmmm, now how can I fit things neatly into the expected formula and still make it interesting enough to outsell the previous books?" I'd hate to think the expectation of the reading public is to have the books follow the same pattern. And, I'd hate for Rowling to restrain her vision of Potter-verse to fit in with some sort of pre-defined successful sales formula. > A series of minor jolts, yes - we need enough reversals and > revelations to keep us turning the hundreds of pages. But we also > expect everything to work out according to the well-known pattern: > Hogwarts threatened, Harry to the rescue, Voldemort thwarted, > Slytherins worsted. Harry Potter has already become a reassuring > symbol of stability in a shaky world and the industry Rowling > started is now so vast that the onus on her is not to take a leap > into the dark, but to deliver another slice of the same lucrative > cake." Certainly there is some formula involved in the books simply because of their being structured around Harry's school year. And, it is about Harry, so of course he will likely be the hero who saves the day. But, I don't think that means that Rowling *must* follow the course laid out by the Guardian reporter. Besides, at what point would a reader think that Rowling had taken "a leap into the dark"? That's pretty subjective. The death of a favorite or major character? Is that a minor jolt or a leap? Voldemort thwarted, but at the cost of a death of a major character? What if Rowling revealed one or more of the major characters to be gay? Some people wouldn't care, but others would find this to be a really big leap into the dark. Of course, Rowling herself has said that the books will get progressively darker. Perhaps that is her warning that the stories will not follow the hallowed pattern. Or perhaps the four parts of the Guardian's description of the Potter formula may remain, but the situations may be such that the formula is not as important as are the ways that Harry grows as a character in dealing with them. My hope is that Rowling simply stays true to the vision she has. If that continues to feed the maw of the Harry Potter Industry, so be it. If, on the other hand, her creation takes new twists and turns that disappoint or discourage some readers because the formula has changed, well, too bad. Marianne, who'll be there for all 7 books, even if her faves are killed off. From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 15:33:01 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fawkes = Traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519153301.69426.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58213 > Valky: Not really sure about what Fawkes leaning is in good or evil. I do have an observation to offer though that some might find interesting in this topic. Why is Fawkes at Hogwarts? We are assuming that he is Dumbledores pet, as Harry has. Yet I don't recall Dumbledore saying "Fawkes is mine.". Does Fawkes belong to Harry? Lets consider some things that may support this theory. 1 Fawkes heals Harry which could be a display of Loyalty to Harry. 2 Dumbledore has on other occassions had *Treasure* belonging to other Wizards left in his keeping, including Harry's cloak. Could Fawkes be a Potter Treasure. As I write I am thinking of a dozen arguments against the theory so I will leave it at that and ask. What do you think? Valky ME: Yea one argument against that theory which I'm sure you've thought out is Dumbledore's comment in CoS that "You must have shown a lot of loyalty to me, Harry. Only that could have brought Fawkes." I put that in quotation marks but I'm reciting it from memory so it might be slightly off. But assuming as we must, that Dumbledore doesn't lie, that means Fawke's loyalty is to Dumbledore, not Harry. When they arrived back, the first place Fawkes flew to was to Dumbledore. He's obviously there for Harry when/if he needs him but it looks like Fawke's loyalty for Harry is actually a reflection of 1. Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore and 2. Dumbledore's loyalty to Harry. One other thing, I have a sneaky suspicion that cannot be confirmed that Phoenix's are noble good creatures so I bet he is indeed oriented on a good/evil basis. In other words the great loyalty that Phoenix's display I think would only be given to those who are worthy of that loyalty. There is no cannon on this of course. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Mon May 19 19:06:21 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:06:21 -0000 Subject: House elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58214 Melanie Ellis: >Now, as to the future of the elves, I hate to say it, but I really feel >that the whole S.P.E.W. thing was a machination for GoF, and we won't >hear much if anything more about it. I hope I'm wrong, but I really felt >that the whole thing was nothing more than a plot element used to get HHR >into the kitchens to find out about Winky - and Dobby, too, of course. I also feel that the whole debate about house elves was mainly there to make a point for the further plot. Not necessarily only to meet Winky but also to show more about a Master-servant dynamic and make us think about it from different PoVs. IMO the treatment of the house elves shows definite parallels to Voldemort's treatment of his servants. (And isn't that just too ironic for Lucius Malfoy *g*) 1. Both parties are not allowed to diobey their master 2. They are punished if they step out of line 3. Their punishment is uncommonly cruel. 4. They have special orders they have to fulfil for their master, even if it changes their whole life (eg. Barty Croch Jr.) 5. They are magically bound to their master (Dark Mark). In CoS we don't know about Death Eaters yet but we already know that there are certain ways somebody can be magically bound to a person and not be able to do something about it. I see this similar to the relationship between Voldemort and his Death Eaters. When they accept the Dark Mark they bind themselves to Voldemort and from then on are always in his service. (eg. Even though he has been dormant for years Snape's Dark Mark starts to darken in GoF and shows that their "contract" is still alive). Sabrina From innermurk at catlover.com Mon May 19 19:55:39 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:55:39 -0000 Subject: Lily and the deal with the devil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > Voldemort would want to save Lily, is it not possible that Lily had > > been working for Voldemort, and that Lily had betrayed James? > > Valky: > I hate it hate it hate it! I can't shake down your argument that she > stayed in the bedroom though. :( THere is still a great amount of > mystery surrounding the night at GH. THere is hope for Lily. > Terrific argument Ali. I just hate it hate it hate it. I am such a > Lily supporter. :P I innermurk say: Who says that Lily stayed in the bedroom? I've always seen the scene as Voldemort taking them by surprise one evening as they're cuddling together on the couch or something. Harry's in his bedroom asleep. They hear someone outside, investigate, and James screams for her to take Harry and run while he holds him off. It doesn't take Voldemort long to AK James and as Lily is running up to Harry's room he finishes him off and enters the house. Lily is gathering Harry to try and flee, but Voldemort gets to the bedroom first. She begs for Harry's life in desperation, and Voldemort kills her. Now Harry is left and he tries to AK him too, but fails. This scenario doesn't point Lily as good or bad, just trying to protect her child, but I've always thought that was how it happened. Innermurk From innermurk at catlover.com Mon May 19 20:24:02 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:24:02 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aja_1991" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" > wrote: > > I have noticed that something strange is generally accepted in the > > theories that I have read. Many are satisfied with the concept that > > Trelawneys *First True Prediction* was the fall of Voldemort. > > Then (aja_1991): > I'm game for this! > > My assumption - right or wrong - is that whatever Trelawney predicted > first was what started or accelerated V's targetting of at least > Harry, and possibly one or both of his parents, to begin with. > Otherwise, I see no reason to belive he wouldn't simply send a squad > of DEs to deal with the meddlesome fools... for some reason, he felt > the need to deal with it personally. And that's why a prediction > along the lines of "Harry will defeat Voldemort" in some form works. > If she says Harry specifically, he's there just for him and he takes > out James and Lily for trying to stop him. If she said "the son of a > Potter" then he's after James and Harry, who are both the sons of a > Potter. Add to that an interview in which JKR refuses to reveal what > the first prediction was, and you have to assume it's critical to the > plot... like as in it led to Harry being the famous orphan with a > scar. > I innermurk reply: It's never made sense to me to say that Trelawny's first true prediction was that Harry would defeat LV. In the first place, she's always vague (at least a lot more so than that). In the second place, Harry didn't actually defeat him seeing as he's back. It remains to be seen whether Harry will be the one who finally does defeat him. And as that hasn't happened yet, we can't know for sure whether that is true or not, thus we can't know whether the prediction was true or not. Now if her prediction was that Harry would cause the *fall* of Voldemort, I could buy that, because he did fall. Then (aja_1991): > Now, perhaps it was somewhat differently worded than a defeat. > Perhaps it was a vanity thing. Think of the Disney movie "Snow White > and the Seven Dwarfs." The evil queen is told one day that she is > NOT the most beautiful, and sets out to kill the one who is deemed > more beautiful. V hears a prediction that somehow says that Harry > will grow to become the most powerful wizard ever, more powerful than > V, more powerful than even the dreaded Dumbledore. Well, can't have > competition now, can we? Best take out this upstart before he can > figure out how to wave a wand. And best to do it himself, to show > who the most powerful really is. > I innermurk reply: Again, this relys on the fact that Trelawny's prediction was true. How can it have been proved true when we don't in fact know that this is the case? Then (aja_1991): > Perhaps the prediction was the Harry would be the key to ending the > effective use of the Unforgivables, which would certainly limit V's > ability to control and terrorize the WW. Not fearing an AK, > Imperius, or Cruciatus means wizards can more adequately prepare for > an attack and protect themselves. Also a strong motivation for V to > take them out. Perhaps Lily was the one solving this problem, so > James and Harry were killed to scare her in to stopping her research, > or perhaps V wanted to keep Lily, not as a "gift" to a DE, but as > someone who could show him how to make the Unforgiveables even more > powerful (an Imperius no one can shake off, for example). > > And corny as it may sounds, perhaps the prediction was that Harry > would lead V away from the Dark Side, thus ending his reign of terror > by turning him to good. I somehow doubt Voldemort, at the height of > his power achieved by use of Dark Arts, would find that end appealing. > I innermurk say: And see above for responses to these prediction potentials. They're good theories for what might happen, but they could not have been Trelawny's actual prediction. Her predicition will *have* to have *already* been proved true for DD to know that she made a *correct* prediction. Innermurk From sophiamcl at hotmail.com Mon May 19 20:25:35 2003 From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:25:35 -0000 Subject: just testing: sorry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58217 sorry, I just tried to post a lengthy post and it seems to have vanished: just testing wether I can... From sophiamcl at hotmail.com Mon May 19 20:42:30 2003 From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:42:30 -0000 Subject: Surprises in OOP (Guardian article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58218 OK. I'm going to try again to post, but will make it more succinct and skip quoting from the article. > David said, quoting part of article in The Guardian, > > > > I was struck by this statement; > > > > "With the biggest sales in publishing history to protect, the > > premium put on secrecy is understandable, but it is also a bit of a > > joke, because the last thing that anyone wants when they finally > > open their copy on June 21 is a real surprise. (i.e. that Rowling supposedly will have "strayed from the formula") Marianne said: > Besides, at what point would a reader think that Rowling had taken "a > leap into the dark"? That's pretty subjective. The death of a > favorite or major character? Is that a minor jolt or a leap? > Voldemort thwarted, but at the cost of a death of a major character? > What if Rowling revealed one or more of the major characters to be > gay? Some people wouldn't care, but others would find this to be a > really big leap into the dark. Exactly. I don't know whether homosexuality will be an issue in HP, but as far as leaps and surprises go, I do feel that the Guardian article was asking whether we will see in the books certain aspects of growing up and adolescence: like sex. I can't see there being anything too gritty, but the feelings and thoughts could be there, maybe. If it does show up, I'm not sure it would be a major plot point. I thought Rowling quite skillfully created a non-intrusive but pervasive tine of underlying hormonal tensions in GoF with incidents involving the veela, Fleur, Cho, even Myrtle (spying on Harry), Mad-Eye (Parvati's horror at the realization his magic eye can see through robes) etc--just to mention a few. Sophia From emeleel at juno.com Mon May 19 20:43:24 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:43:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil!mcGonagall (was: Hints for HP and the Order of the Phoenix! / Mistakes / Message-ID: <20030519.154325.-1101465.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58219 On Mon, 19 May 2003 02:29:29 -0700 (PDT) The Entwife writes: > > Gulplum wrote: > > < > complete capitulation faced with the unknown and her complete inability to run > > the school in Dumbledore's absence. I don't want to start a > > feminist debate, but this smells very bad to me.>> Sqee said: > I just take this as one more piece of evidence that > McGonagall is the "insider" that Voldemort mentions to > his pack o' DeathEaters in GoF.... > > No one seems to be with me in my theory that she's the > baddy, but hey, I perservere on my own.... No, no, the insider that Voldie was talking about in the graveyard scene was Crouch Jr., who was still back at Hogwarts at the time, still posing as Moody. He was on the grounds of Hogwarts, so he would have been unable to Apparate to the graveyard to join all his DE buddies. Melanie ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From innermurk at catlover.com Mon May 19 20:44:35 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:44:35 -0000 Subject: Illustrations on the covers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58220 I was just looking over all the previous covers to see how many clues indeed lie in the illustrations (I'm looking at the hardback US versions) to see whether or not my ideas about OOP illustrations are really all that important. I've come to the conclusion that most of them are relevant. And we get to see Ron and Hermione in color on book 2 and 3 respectively. However, book 1 is a bit confusing. Does anyone know who the person in the nightdress with the candle is supposed to be? Thanks! Innermurk From meboriqua at aol.com Mon May 19 20:44:23 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:44:23 -0000 Subject: House Elves and DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "honeycakehorse03" wrote: > IMO the treatment of the house elves shows definite parallels to > Voldemort's treatment of his servants. > (And isn't that just too ironic for Lucius Malfoy *g*) > 1. Both parties are not allowed to diobey their master > 2. They are punished if they step out of line > 3. Their punishment is uncommonly cruel. > 4. They have special orders they have to fulfil for their master, > even if it changes their whole life (eg. Barty Croch Jr.) > 5. They are magically bound to their master (Dark Mark). > > In CoS we don't know about Death Eaters yet but we already know that > there are certain ways somebody can be magically bound to a person > and not be able to do something about it. I see this similar to the > relationship between Voldemort and his Death Eaters. When they > accept the Dark Mark they bind themselves to Voldemort and from then > on are always in his service. (eg. Even though he has been dormant > for years Snape's Dark Mark starts to darken in GoF and shows that > their "contract" is still alive).> I think some of these parallels make sense, but I see no real connection between DEs and House Elves. Voldemort's followers are generally not his servants, but wizards and witches who chose to follow him because they believed in him. House Elves have no such power in the WW. The Dark Mark is quite different than the bond that ties House Elves to their masters. DEs can choose to not obey the Dark Mark when it appears, as we've seen in both Snape and Karkaroff. While we don't know if Snape did go to the graveyard with the others, we can assume he had a say in the matter. Karkaroff, if I'm not mistaken, ran away from Hogwarts and did not go to the graveyard at all. House Elves, however, suffer consequences that they cannot control if they disobey their masters. Really, I think it all comes down to choice, which is something JKR stresses throughout the series. As the Great Amanda says, both Dobby and Winky are unusual in that they do not think/feel the way other House Elves do. Many people here believe that the need to serve is built into the character of being a House Elf, much like the ability to learn language is built into us. DEs have had every freedom to travel any path they want to in their lives, and the path of hatred and violence is the one they want to follow. No one makes them do anything (you could believe the ones who claimed they were under Imperius, but I don't) - including Voldemort. Even Pettigrew chose to find Voldemort when he escaped from Hogwarts with his life. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************** From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Mon May 19 20:45:48 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:45:48 -0000 Subject: House elves and WW ethics In-Reply-To: <20030519023652.71570.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58222 Andrea wrote: > Actually, no. In other words, it is illegal to kill someone with Avada > Kedavra. There are still plenty of other ways someone could be killed; > it's only that one spell that is outlawed. And incidentally, during the > 1st Voldie War and its aftermath, Aurors *were* authorized to use the > Unforgivables. So just like in the Muggle world, the WW considers it > illegal to kill...except in certain circumstances and with certain spells. Me: Okay, I realize that there is nothing in canon whatsoever to back me up here, but...I'm going to push ahead and insist (forgive me, I'm stubborn) that it is illegal to kill someone *with magic* in the WW (except under rare circumstances...Crouch had basically imposed martial law on the WW). Crouch-As-Moody mentioned illegal curses, the three worst of which were the Unforgiveables. The results of the Unforgiveables, as you know, are control, torture, and murder. This implies that there are a fair amount of outlawed curses, but only the three that produce those results are labeled Unforgiveable. If there were other spells that accomplished these same things, would they not be in the same place as the others? If the result of the Spiggly Spoof spell was the same as that of Avada Kedarva, would it not be Unforgiveable as well, and would it not have been mentioned? Joe S. From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 21:02:28 2003 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:02:28 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58223 Anita Sathe > wrote: > > Hi all > > This is about the people on the promo picture of OOtP (that I just > found..so late). > > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person > looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > > > -Anita Me: No, you're not the only one. I know all the "investigative prophets" have said it's another boy, but IMO the face is much too feminine, especially for a boy old enough to be nearly as tall as Mad- eye Moody. The face, in fact, is rather heart-shaped, it looks a bit menacing though. I'm guessing it's the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher... s p o i l e r you know, the one "with a personality like poisoned honey." Link here from the promotional book display: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2003/5/hp5-stand-zoom.jpg --Judy From innermurk at catlover.com Mon May 19 21:09:57 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:09:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58224 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" wrote: > Anita Sathe > > wrote: > > > Hi all > > > This is about the people on the promo picture of OOtP (that I > just > > found..so late). > > > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person > > looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > > > > > -Anita > > Me: > > No, you're not the only one. I know all the "investigative > prophets" have said it's another boy, but IMO the face is much too > feminine, especially for a boy old enough to be nearly as tall as Mad- > eye Moody. The face, in fact, is rather heart-shaped, it looks a bit > menacing though. I'm guessing it's the new Defense Against the Dark > Arts teacher... > you know, the one "with a personality like poisoned honey." > Link here from the promotional book display: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2003/5/hp5-stand-zoom.jpg I innermurk reply: It looks a little young to be a professor though. Someone suggested it could be Neville, which is a good guess, or it might be Colin Creevy. He's small and skinny. Does anyone have any speculations on the identity of the person climbing on the outside of the building on the spine of the special edition cover of OOP? He's about halfway down the spine hanging by a window, and might only be seen on the huge version of the pic. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2003/5/deluxe1.jpg I'm thinking it looks distinctly Neville-ish. Innermurk From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Mon May 19 16:51:26 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:51:26 -0000 Subject: OOP: Lupin's Hideout and Caved in tunnel In-Reply-To: <1053362651.3ec909db87831@webmail.bradley.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ambiree at s... wrote: > Quoting Linda : > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "edisbevan" > > wrote: > > > One thought: > > > > > > When Lupin was periodically ill where did he hide out? > > > > Linda: > > I always thought that he was hiding out in the shreiking shack. > > Amber: When he was in wolf form, Lupin would, I believe the quote is "curl up > in his office, a harmless wolf." Linda: Thanks for refeshing my memory Amber, I'm at work and therefore don't have access to the books right now. I must have been having a memory charm moment. -Linda(It's all good...right?) From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 19 21:02:05 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:02:05 -0000 Subject: Fawkes = Traitor? In-Reply-To: <20030519104220.55609.qmail@web10411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, The Entwife wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelfish302" > > > > wrote: > > > Considering JKR's use of meaningful names > > (Voldemort, Draco, > > > Narcissa, etc.), will Fawkes become a traitor like > > his namesake? > > > > > > --Angelfish Maybe Guy Fawkes was a wizard! IIRC, James I was a notorious enemy of witchcraft. There's a picture of Guy in a pointed hat. http://www.bonefire.org/guy/ It would be funny if, in Rowling's scheme of things, the notorious barrels of gunpowder were just an illusion. Maybe Guy, like Wendelin the Wierd and Fawkes the Phoenix, didn't actually die after all. Pippin From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon May 19 16:55:16 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:55:16 -0000 Subject: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? In-Reply-To: <20030516192242.71217.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58227 > ME (who is Becky): Personally, knowing Ms. Rowling's perchant for introducing new places and things to us each book, this is very probably someplace where we haven't seen yet. I personally doubt it is either the Riddle House or the Shrieking Shack or anyplace we know. That would be consistant with her style and logically it is a big world out there and we have indeed been shown so little of it that it would also make sense that this, for good or ill is an entirely new place. Pip!Squeak: I don't think the illustration is of the Riddle house. 'SS' appears to be carved in the top left buttress of the house (rather snaky 'S' as well). On the middle left, one of the carvings looks as if it *might* be a cobra's head, open to strike (above the open window). The stones above the lower (boarded up) window have a 'teeth/fangs' look about them as well. The Riddle house was built and owned by Muggles - I don't think it would have references to Salazar Slytherin built in. This is either somewhere connected with Voldemort or (hopefully) a house connected with the Slytherin line. Or I could have just squinted at the illustration a bit too much and be imagining things [grin]. Pip!Squeak From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu Mon May 19 21:10:55 2003 From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:10:55 -0500 Subject: Oops: Voldemort's Triumph Filk Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58228 That filk was based off the songs "Alive" and "Alive - Reprise" from the Broadway Musical, "Jekyll and Hyde" by Frank Wildhorn. Hobbit_guy, off to iron his hands for the omission ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?" "No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point." -Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD From steinber at zahav.net.il Mon May 19 14:37:30 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:37:30 +0200 Subject: HarrySavesHarry (was Adopted!Harry) Message-ID: <001201c31e16$f6d6ec60$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 58229 The second half of my theory - the part about Harry going back to save his infant self - doesn't really require Harry to have been adopted, so I'm changing its name to HarrySavesHarry, or HSH. All HSH needs (for justice) is that Harry have some characteristic that makes him uniquely suited to challenge Voldemort. This could be the Heir of Gryffindor theory, which I hate because it runs directly counter to JKR's choices-not-genes theme, or it could be my Adopted!Harry theory, which of course I'm quite fond of. In any case, in Barb's barb against HSH, which I clarified a few posts ago, she discussed Harry's surviving the HSH encounter with Voldemort to live incognito for 17 years until his 18-yr-old self had gone back in time, upon which his now 35-yr-old self could reveal himself. Well, I don't support this route, but it leads to such a great speculation that I'm proposing the following extension just for fun. Let's say that Voldemort has become Vapormort, infant Harry has been deposited at the Dursley's, and 18-yr-old Harry has to find somplace to hang out incognito for the long haul of the next 17 years. How about he gets himself transfigured into a little old lady and parks himself two blocks away from the Dursley's to keep an eye on his infant self? Mrs. Figg is really 18-yr-old Harry! (who is really Tom Riddle!) What's nice about this speculation is that it gives Mrs. Figg a very good reason to care so much about child Harry, and also a very good reason to waste so many years of her life as an old lady in Little Whinging, something missing from all the other hidden-identity-Mrs-Figg theories. While we're at it, I'd say that late at night, Harry!Figg transfigures him/herself further into a cat or a little bird or a spider (he's had lots of lonely hours to do nothing but learn animagic), and sneaks into child Harry's cupboard while he's sleeping. Every night, Riddle!Harry!Figg!Spider whispers sweet little nothings into child Harry's ears about how loved he is, and whispers noble big somethings into his ears about how to be a decent person, unlike the Dursleys. And that is the answer to the riddle of how Harry came out so well from the rotten Dursleys. Harry taught Harry how to be good and kind and noble and brave. And if that sounds circular, it's no worse than Harry saving Harry from the Dementors in PoA. Happy speculating! The Admiring Skeptic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 19 21:38:42 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:38:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Illustrations on the covers References: Message-ID: <000d01c31e4f$056bb3e0$99cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58230 > However, book 1 is a bit confusing. > Does anyone know who the person in the nightdress with the candle is > supposed to be? > > Thanks! > Innermurk I believe it's Dumbledore. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From innermurk at catlover.com Mon May 19 22:03:19 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:03:19 -0000 Subject: Illustrations on the covers In-Reply-To: <000d01c31e4f$056bb3e0$99cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58231 I wrote earlier: > > However, book 1 is a bit confusing. > > Does anyone know who the person in the nightdress with the candle is > > supposed to be? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > > I believe it's Dumbledore. > I respond: I don't think it's Dumbledore. He's on the back in purple robes. The figure I'm talking about is only partially visible. In the pinkish/coral colored robes, you can only see the hand with the candle, and the leg tiptoeing in the scene. Innermurk From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 19 22:04:40 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:04:40 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort kills James and Lilly-why not send the Death-eaters to do it? References: <002801c31d98$ced1b430$f28b6750@takun> <000901c31dac$022649f0$2dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <002e01c31e52$a5f87160$458a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58232 > > Me (Izaskun) > Agree. What about Arthur??? I bet Lucius Malfoy would be only too glad to finish him. Or better still, they could kill each other in a terrible fight, just like King Arthur killed Lucius after being mortally wounded by him. MMMMM, sort of makes sense. Doesn't it??? Imagine Ron and DRaco at school afterwards... KellY: I thought King Arthur and Mordred (his son) killed each other? Me (izaskun) Well, there are different versions. But Arthur killed for sure Lucius the Roman. Whether Lucius killed him or not depends on the source you choose. Some say Arthur was injured but survived, some others say he died of the injuries. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 19 22:18:08 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:18:08 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_Re:_The_Catalyst_to_Riddle's_Motiv?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ation_?= References: <0E8D05E7.16147745.022D3A68@aol.com> Message-ID: <006901c31e54$89e79e90$458a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58233 AUdra wrote: I happen to think many people are over-complicating why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry in the first place and why he wants to kill him now. Back in the day, James and Lily were a couple of very talented wizards. They were Head Boy and Head Girl at Hogwarts, weren't they? And they were on Dumbledore's side. Isn't it believable that Voldemort's only motivation for taking them out is that they represented a threat to him? So do them before they do you, right? I do think it's possible that Voldemort would have handed Lily over to Pettigrew as a reward if she had consented and stepped aside when he warned her. At least he already killed James and broke up the team, so to speak. But Voldemort didn't seem to care too strongly about sparing Lily. He just gave her one chance. No? Okay, then, Avada Kadavra! Boom. Lily died for the baby. Voldemort forgot about that ancient mother's love magic, so the next AK meant to kill the baby bounced back onto Voldemort. Whoops! Voldemort is continues to come after Harry again and again because 1.) Voldmort is an egotist and having a baby not only survive his attack, but reduce him to Vapormort in the process really hurt his pride, so revenge, and 2.) taking care of unfinished business. Back to the Evil Overlord Rules. You don't leave a kid hanging around,whose parents you killed, and wait for him to to grow up and come after you for revenge. You get him asap, while he's still young and weak, and snuff him. Does it really have to be more complicated than that? Me (Izaskun): Well, knowing JK, yes, it does have to be more complicated than that. There has to be a reason, maybe it's a simple one, granted, but there was a powerful reason for LV wanting to kill the Potters. And DUmbledore clearly says so, more or less. In PS/SS when Harry asks him why LV wanted to kill him, an innocent baby, Dumbledore says he can't tell him now, he'll know, some day, when he's older and prepared for the truth. I don't have the books here, with me, sorry, so I can quote. But that's more or less what DD says. To me that suggest a very powerful reason, and a very dangerous secret. Hopefully we'll know soon enough. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Mon May 19 17:58:16 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:58:16 -0000 Subject: Surprises in OOP (Guardian article) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58234 Davis pointed out this article to us: > Courtesy of the Leaky Cauldron (www.the-leaky-cauldron.org) I read > the following Guardian article by Natasha Walter: > > books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,958756,00.html "A series of minor jolts, yes - we need enough reversals and revelations to keep us turning the hundreds of pages. But we also expect everything to work out according to the well-known pattern: Hogwarts threatened, Harry to the rescue, Voldemort thwarted, Slytherins worsted. Harry Potter has already become a reassuring symbol of stability in a shaky world and the industry Rowling started is now so vast that the onus on her is not to take a leap into the dark, but to deliver another slice of the same lucrative cake." Maria Alena: Er, well, this is a case of pointing out the obvious. The same thing can be said about every detective novel there is. I do expect things to work out that way. The thing is, though, that we have three books to go, and I don't see how anyone can be sure that Voldemort will be twarted in OOP. I think that at this part in the series, we'll have "The Empire Strikes Back" dynamic. Maria Alena From innermurk at catlover.com Mon May 19 22:23:08 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:23:08 -0000 Subject: Flitwick twist Was:(House elves and the multi species WW) In-Reply-To: <001101c31e32$f670ede0$3c4d6551@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58235 > Jazmyn wrote: > I think that wizards don't consider house elves to be human because they're > not. For me, one of the interesting things about the WW is that it is a > place where there _are_ different humanoid species, some of whom can > interbreed (eg giants and humans) but possibly others who can't. This made me wonder if House Elves can interbreed with humans. If so, I wonder if Flitwick is part House Elf instead of part Goblin like some have speculated. Innermurk From innermurk at catlover.com Mon May 19 18:41:09 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:41:09 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58236 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Anita Sathe > wrote: > > Hi all > > This is about the people on the promo picture of OOtP (that I just > found..so late). > > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person > looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > > > -Anita > I'm thinking the spiky haired person *might* be Neville. I think he's the same person as the one hanging on the building on the spine of the Special Edition US cover of OOP. (whom I thought was Neville). In which case, I think it's entirely probable that the building is in fact St. Mungos. However, it looks a little run down for a medical hospital doesn't it? Innermurk From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 19 22:31:28 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:31:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Illustrations on the covers References: Message-ID: <005201c31e56$6deb1710$99cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58237 > I wrote earlier: > > > However, book 1 is a bit confusing. > > > Does anyone know who the person in the nightdress with the candle > is > > > supposed to be? > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" > wrote: > > > > I believe it's Dumbledore. > > > > Inermurk responds: > > I don't think it's Dumbledore. He's on the back in purple robes. The > figure I'm talking about is only partially visible. In the > pinkish/coral colored robes, you can only see the hand with the > candle, and the leg tiptoeing in the scene. > Kelly again: Yeah, you're right. Read it quickly and thought you were talking about him. Don't know who the one in the nightdress is. Maybe Quirrell, and we can't see him because he has his turban off? I really have no idea. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From waters_law at yahoo.com Mon May 19 20:22:33 2003 From: waters_law at yahoo.com (waters_law) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:22:33 -0000 Subject: fawkes as traitor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58238 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelfish302" > > > > wrote: > > > Considering JKR's use of meaningful names > > (Voldemort, Draco, > > > Narcissa, etc.), will Fawkes become a traitor like > > his namesake? > > > > > Munchkin sez: Oh, surely not! I think a phoenix is just too noble a creature for the Dark Side -- like having a unicorn side with LV (although I guess that is possible too.) I think the name jsut comes from the bonfire association with Guy Fawkes, not anything to do with traitorous activities >> Munchkin "waters_law at yahoo.com" From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 19 22:20:17 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:20:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP References: <20030519073420.75162.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007201c31e54$dcbee510$458a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58239 Anita wrote: Hi all This is about the people on the promo picture of OOtP (that I just found..so late). Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? Me (izaskun) Not if it's a teenager. It could perfectly be Neville or Seamus, or even one of the Weasley twins. I keep thinking it's Percy, though. CHeers, Izaskun --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Mon May 19 22:51:05 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:51:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Illustrations on the covers References: Message-ID: <018b01c31e59$22425140$5216570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 58240 I finally was able to look at the cover of the delux edition of OoP. I think it is the Riddle House. Didn't it say in GoF that the neighborhood kids had been breaking windows? The house in the picture has at least one boarded up window and one broken window. The red wing is bound to belong to Fawkes. ~Cathy~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Mon May 19 19:15:48 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (Carolin M?nkemeyer) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:15:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? References: Message-ID: <005401c31e3b$93ad0780$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58241 I think, this is really possible and as I already mentioned it also would fit to the "Perseus Evens" theory I have read on this board ... His special tendency for the dark arts could also be a result of Snape being a dhampire... vampires are dark human creatures and trerefore he could just be very talented in regard to the dark arts. This could also explain why he wants to teach DADA. He knows a lot from his own experience. And you still don't know where he grew up... Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From innermurk at catlover.com Mon May 19 19:48:12 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:48:12 -0000 Subject: Evil!mcGonagall (was: Hints for HP and the Order of the Phoenix! / Mistakes / In-Reply-To: <20030519092929.13630.qmail@web10402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58242 Squee wrote: > I just take this as one more piece of evidence that > McGonagall is the "insider" that Voldemort mentions to > his pack o' DeathEaters in GoF.... > > No one seems to be with me in my theory that she's the > baddy, but hey, I perservere on my own.... If I'm remembering correctly (don't have my books with me) Voldemort says later in that passage that his "Faithful Servent" is the one who fixed the portkey for him, and we later find out that Crouch!Moody is the one who did that and is his faithful servent at Hogwarts. So, it couldn't be McGonagall unless you think he has two faithful servents, or that he didn't know who enchanted the portkey. I find it more likely that McGonagall is on the good side though. Innermurk From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 19 22:37:22 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:37:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Lupin's Hideout and Caved in tunnel References: Message-ID: <009201c31e57$37b3e3b0$458a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "edisbevan" wrote: > One thought: > > When Lupin was periodically ill where did he hide out? Linda answered: I always thought that he was hiding out in the shreiking shack. I believe that Black was hiding in the forbidden forest so they probably would not have run into each other. Me (Izaskun) clarifies: He was hiding in his office. "The potion that Professor Snape has been making for me is a very recent discovery. It makes me safe, you see. As long as I take it in the week, preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform.... I'm able to curl up in my office, a harmless wolf, and wait for the moon to wane again." PoA Cheers, IZaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 19 22:55:17 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:55:17 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <007201c31e54$dcbee510$458a6750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > Anita wrote: > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > Me (izaskun) > Not if it's a teenager. It could perfectly be Neville or Seamus, > or even one of the Weasley twins. I keep thinking it's Percy, > t hough. It can't be Percy. Not unless something has happened to his horn-rimmed glasses. I suspect this personage may be the Potterverse equivalent of a Star Trek Redshirt--you know, a character introduced so that he or she can be killed off to emphasize the danger to our heroes. Pippin From sophiamcl at hotmail.com Mon May 19 20:16:25 2003 From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:16:25 -0000 Subject: Surprises in OOP (Guardian article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > David said, quoting part of article in The Guardian, > > > > I was struck by this statement; > > > > "With the biggest sales in publishing history to protect, the > > premium put on secrecy is understandable, but it is also a bit of a > > joke, because the last thing that anyone wants when they finally > > open their copy on June 21 is a real surprise. > Mrianne said: > Besides, at what point would a reader think that Rowling had taken "a > leap into the dark"? That's pretty subjective. The death of a > favorite or major character? Is that a minor jolt or a leap? > Voldemort thwarted, but at the cost of a death of a major character? > What if Rowling revealed one or more of the major characters to be > gay? Some people wouldn't care, but others would find this to be a > really big leap into the dark. > Me: >From the article, I got the impression that the leaps and surprises that would really change the Potter-universe is not the deaths--we've been told for a long time that they are coming--but issues with adolescence and growing up: (I quote:) "But some things will have to change. Harry is growing up." "...since the hero starts The Order of the Phoenix at the age of 15 and will be 18 at the end of the series, his growing maturity presents a challenge to Rowling's inventive, but essentially naive style. In the last book, she coped pretty well with the stirrings of adolescence. Her world is sufficiently easygoing to allow Harry to express incipient sexual desires and for all the young witches and wizards to giggle and blush over their invitations to the end-of-term ball." "Many children's writers skip over the issue altogether, leaving their protagonists in a sort of limbo, neither quite child nor quite adult. Tolkien is the great exemplar of that style, in which his heroes fall in love, marry and have children but never actually lay a finger on one another. Rowling could do something similar, allowing Harry to focus on his heroic tasks until the very end, when he could, say, slip into everlasting union with Cho Chang, and Ron into perfect harmony with Hermione, with the happy-ever-after purity of old fairy tales. But Rowling has an altogether more vernacular style, and has already shown that she wants to explore the embarrassments and desires of adolescence. Who knows where that may take her?" (Me again:) So to me the question will be--perhaps not for book five, but certainly for the rest of the series: How "much" will Harry grow up, and how much of it will we as readers be privy to? In other words, can we expect (or dread?) sex to come up? I can't see there being any gritty stuff, but the feelings, thoughts maybe? I thought Rowling quite skillfully created an undertone of hormonal tension (not intrusive) in GoF with the veela, the Fleur and Cho incidents, Myrtle spying on Harry, to mention just a few things. Sophia From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Mon May 19 23:05:49 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:05:49 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Trelawney Prediction References: Message-ID: <00c001c31e5b$31a10800$458a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58246 Bluesqueak wrote: I suspect that Trelawney's *first* prediction was made to a very select audience. Of our current cast of characters, Snape would make most sense. Snape because he is certainly reporting to Dumbledore in GoF and could thus reasonably be expected to have reported the first genuine prophecy to Dumbledore, *but* may have also had to report it (in his DE role) to Voldemort (especially if he wasn't alone at the time). I (izaskun) ask: Ok, Snape heard the prediction. But how? and when, and where??? Snape was not a teacher back then. He joined Hogwarts after LV's defeat. So he couldn't be near Trelawney, who I think was already a teacher. And how do I know Snape was not a teacher in those days. Cannon supports the idea. "Snape?" said Black harshly, taking his eyes off Scabbers; for the first time in minutes and looking up at Lupin. "What's Snape got to do with it?" "He's here, Sirius," said Lupin heavily. "He's teaching here as well." PoA. Black didn't know Snape was a teacher, he was even surprised to hear his name. That clearly indicates that Severus Snape was not a teacher 13 year before, he was not a teacher when Sirius was imprisoned, otherwise there wouldn't have been any need to explain Black what Snape was doing in Hogwarts. What Snape did before that, appart from being a DE and eventually a spy for DD, I don't know, but it's something I have been wondering for a long, long time. So, I ask you again. How the hell could he know about Trelawneys first prediction unless DD told him??? I think DD witnessed Trelawney's first prediction, and LV knew about it by some way or the other. There were a lot of spies for both sides in those days. Or maybe LV didn't know the prediction, he just went after the Potters because he an extremely evel centaur told him about Saturn and Mars brighting unusually the night Harry was born, or whatever. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon May 19 23:18:01 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:18:01 -0500 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies Message-ID: <010501c31e5c$e5456260$32a0cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 58247 I've just been listening to PoA on CD today in the car, and noticed that while Harry was waiting for his final exam with Trelawney, he sees/hears a fly buzzing in the window. Of course, it could be just a regular ordinary fly buzzing in the window. Or something else? JKR frequently hides clues in such places, and are frequently missed until reread with further understanding. Is this just a fly? Could it have something to do with Trelawney's prediction? She clearly has no clue that she's said anything, could there have been another presence taking her over? Using her as a "voice box" to prophecy? Now that I mention it, I'm wondering if Trelawney was aware of her prediction the first time. You know, the first true prophecy? If not, then perhaps nothing she knowingly says is a true prediction. And then there's that fly . . .. I can't believe I'm getting this worked up over a fly, it just seemed . . . odd. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Mon May 19 23:36:05 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:36:05 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58248 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" > > wrote: > > > > I have noticed that something strange is generally accepted in > the > > > theories that I have read. Many are satisfied with the concept > that > > > Trelawneys *First True Prediction* was the fall of Voldemort. > > > > > > > Then (aja_1991): > > I'm game for this! > > > > My assumption - right or wrong - is that whatever Trelawney > predicted > > first was what started or accelerated V's targetting of at least > > Harry, and possibly one or both of his parents, to begin with. > > Otherwise, I see no reason to belive he wouldn't simply send a > squad > > of DEs to deal with the meddlesome fools... for some reason, he > felt > > the need to deal with it personally. And that's why a prediction > > along the lines of "Harry will defeat Voldemort" in some form > works. > > If she says Harry specifically, he's there just for him and he > takes > > out James and Lily for trying to stop him. If she said "the son of > a > > Potter" then he's after James and Harry, who are both the sons of a > > Potter. Add to that an interview in which JKR refuses to reveal > what > > the first prediction was, and you have to assume it's critical to > the > > plot... like as in it led to Harry being the famous orphan with a > > scar. > > > > I innermurk reply: > It's never made sense to me to say that Trelawny's first true > prediction was that Harry would defeat LV. In the first place, she's > always vague (at least a lot more so than that). In the second place, > Harry didn't actually defeat him seeing as he's back. It remains to > be seen whether Harry will be the one who finally does defeat him. > And as that hasn't happened yet, we can't know for sure whether that > is true or not, thus we can't know whether the prediction was true or > not. > Now if her prediction was that Harry would cause the *fall* of > Voldemort, I could buy that, because he did fall. > >snipping more prediction theories by aja_1991< > I innermurk says: > They're good theories for what might happen, but they could not have > been Trelawny's actual prediction. Her predicition will *have* to > have *already* been proved true for DD to know that she made a > *correct* prediction. > > Innermurk Now me(Linda): I've been following this thread since this morning and I IMO I think that it's gone off onto a false tangent. The discussion currantly surrounding the prediction is based on Trelaway's first prediction being "true". That is not what is stated in canon. Dumbledore states, "That brings her total of REAL predictions up to two. I should offer her a pay raise..."(pg 426 US paperback) He and Harry are talking about whether or not the prediction was real, not whether or not it came true. In fact, at the time that they are having the conversation, they don't know whether the entire second prediction will come true either. They know that Wormtail escaped and is probably going to return to LV but the outcome of that sequence of events is by no means a foregone conclusion, especially considering Wormtails general ineptitude. Both Dumbledore and Harry, IMHO, are refering to her penchant for making cheap, theatrical predictions. In other words "predictions" that are just for show and not "real". When the predictions are looked at from this perspective, almost any theory that would drive LV to kill any or all of the Potters is pretty much a fair game theory, as long as it doesn't contradict canon. -Linda From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue May 20 01:25:31 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:25:31 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies In-Reply-To: <010501c31e5c$e5456260$32a0cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > I've just been listening to PoA on CD today in the car, and noticed that while Harry was waiting for his final exam with Trelawney, he sees/hears a fly buzzing in the window. Valky, You know, thats a curious question. There is some speculation in recent threads that Dumbledore could be some kind of Animagus. Hinting at the reasoning that the name Dumbledore means Bumblebee. Oh thats so contrived. Not to mention it doesn't really make much sense. What would he be doing there? Silly Valky :P From amani at charter.net Tue May 20 01:30:55 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:30:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MoM Regs/ who are the other 6 registered Animagi? References: Message-ID: <003501c31e6f$75796900$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58250 > >DAnielle here: > >Pg. 351 pb us edition POA, " .... and I went and > >looked Prof. Mcgonagall up on the register, and there > >have been only seven Animagi this century, and > >Pettigrew wasn't on the list--" > > > >Where does it say that Mcgonagall is the only Animagi. > >Hermione says there is only 7 registered ones. > >Mcgonagall being one of them, who is the other 6?? > > > > Oops. I remembered it wrong (I'm at work and the books are at home). So > technically Snape *could* have been on the list -- but I think Hermione > would have mentioned it. Peggy: Hermione keeps a lot of her information to herself. She does this not only to build suspence within the story--but also because she is quite an inteligent little girl. If they want to know who is on the list, they can look it up themselves. If you remember in PoA, she knew Lupin was a werewolf because of the Snape essay. She was the only student who actually did it. Yes, she was arguing with Ron and Harry at the time, but she did not give up the information that she gained. It is not unlike her to keep the information that she found on the list to herself. It was also not necessary for her to reveal the others that were registered at that time. She was looking for Rita-- what was important was that Rita was not on the list, not who was. Me: I would be /amazed/ if Hermione kept that to herself. Lupin was a different matter. It was information that could get him in trouble and he was a teacher they all liked, so she obviously wouldn't /want/ him to get into trouble. Besides the fact that Snape is not a teacher they like, it's not information that would get him into trouble. He's /registered/, after all. That's /definitely/ something she would share with Harry and Ron. In a "Wow-listen-to-what-I-found" kind of way. ("I didn't find Pettigrew on the list, but not only was McGonagall on there, SNAPE was!") --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 20 01:54:47 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:54:47 -0000 Subject: MoM Regs/ who are the other 6 registered Animagi? In-Reply-To: <003501c31e6f$75796900$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58251 Taryn: > I would be /amazed/ if Hermione kept that to herself. Lupin was a different matter. It was information that could get him in trouble and he was a teacher they all liked, so she obviously wouldn't /want/ him to get into trouble. Besides the fact that Snape is not a teacher they like, it's not information that would get him into trouble. He's /registered/, after all. That's /definitely/ something she would share with Harry and Ron. In a "Wow-listen-to-what-I-found" kind of way. ("I didn't find Pettigrew on the list, but not only was McGonagall on there, SNAPE was!") > > She would tell them just so they could be sure and look out for a bat (or whatever he would be) the next time they went skulking around. No, I don't think Snape is a registered animagus. And besides, it's going to get really dull if everyone is an Animagus. They are supposed to be really hard spells to learn. Darrin -- Ditto for the Polyjuice Potion. From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Tue May 20 02:03:11 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:03:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Cover illustrations Message-ID: <3EC98CDF.3090105@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58252 Innermurk wondered: > I was just looking over all the previous covers to see how many clues > indeed lie in the illustrations (I'm looking at the hardback US > versions) to see whether or not my ideas about OOP illustrations are > really all that important. > >> However, book 1 is a bit confusing. >> Does anyone know who the person in the nightdress with the candle is >> supposed to be? > Pat replies: I assume that the leg, nightdress, and candle belong to Hermione. Don't think that Harry or Ron would wear a pink nightgown! The person appears to be tip-toeing around, and that would rule out McGonnagal, or any other teacher, for that matter. Mary Grandpre is a fellow Minnesotan-- I should call my contact at Scholastic Bookfair rep. and see if she knows anything... Pat From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue May 20 02:47:54 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 02:47:54 -0000 Subject: Surrealism in OOTP cover? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58253 I Have finally got a look at the OOTP cover previews. There is some speculation about who the three people are. My guesses are Moody (of course), Lupin, and the younger face is, I think, Tom. Well probably not though, that is the most mysterious one to me. I would like to leave the faces speculation alone for now and relate another point. On each side there is a elongated head of an animal. To me it looks as though it is intended to be ably interpreted as both a bird and a snake. Forgive me, I am a bit of a fan of surrealism, and I am probably making a lot more of this than it is. Going ahead anyway, mad as I may seem. Are we given a hint here to consider Slyth and Gryff in a combined form. I am seeing a kind of rotating balance between the forms of the Pheonix and the Snake in the illustration. Like I said I am mad as a Hatter. Valky. "....imagine what it looked like to old Armando Dippet. On the one hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless, but so *brave*.." Tom Riddle CH17 COS "...Ther's Talent,oh yes and a nice thirst to prove yourself....." THe Sorting Hat to Harry CH7 PS From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Tue May 20 02:59:47 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 02:59:47 -0000 Subject: Surrealism in OOTP cover? OOPs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" Sorry its not on the promo cover but another promotional peice you can see at http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2003/5/hp5- sticker-zoom.jpg Oops... :s wrote: > I Have finally got a look at the OOTP cover previews. > > There is some speculation about who the three people are. My guesses > are Moody (of course), Lupin, and the younger face is, I think, Tom. > Well probably not though, that is the most mysterious one to me. > > I would like to leave the faces speculation alone for now and relate > another point. > > On each side there is a elongated head of an animal. To me it looks > as though it is intended to be ably interpreted as both a bird and a > snake. > > Forgive me, I am a bit of a fan of surrealism, and I am probably > making a lot more of this than it is. > > Going ahead anyway, mad as I may seem. > > Are we given a hint here to consider Slyth and Gryff in a combined > form. I am seeing a kind of rotating balance between the forms of the > Pheonix and the Snake in the illustration. > > Like I said I am mad as a Hatter. > > Valky. > > "....imagine what it looked like to old Armando Dippet. On the one > hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless, but so *brave*.." > Tom Riddle CH17 COS > > "...Ther's Talent,oh yes and a nice thirst to prove yourself....." > THe Sorting Hat to Harry CH7 PS From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue May 20 03:03:04 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 03:03:04 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Slytherin Evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58255 Slytherin Evil (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Iowa Stubborn_ from the musical _The Music Man_) I tried looking for a Midi/Real Audio clip, but couldn't find one...sorry. Dedicated to Hobbit Dude :) The Slytherin Student Body, past and present, sings: Oh..... There's nothing quite like The well known Slytherin brand of ethics And those ethics They are not so ethical There's a Slytherin kind of special Ends-justify-means attitude Though some may call it Diabolical We have been known To dress up exactly like a Dementor So we all could give that Potter brat the shakes And then they call us evil Just because during Quidditch We are cheating to win 'Cause the House Cup is at stake But what the heck, we're friendly Join us at our table Unless, of course, you're A Muggle or a filthy Mudblood You really ought to give Slytherin a break Lucius (in a threatening tone of voice): You just better be Pureblood (Enter a pair of students from Gryffindor House, walking by) Student #1 (spoken): Good morning Professor Snape Student #2: Good morning Professor Snape Snape: What's so good about it? Ten points each from Gryffindor for your cheek! (At the other end of the table, Draco is relating his recent experience in Care Of Magical Creatures class) Draco (speaking to Pansy): And there I was...mauled by that monstrous Hippogriff! And my arm still hasn't healed. It's all the fault of that idiot Hagrid. Crabbe (or Goyle, it doesn't make much of difference): Duh, but Draco, you weren't listening to his instructions. Draco (snapping): Moron! What difference does that make? Slytherins (singing again): Our House is known For producing more dark wizards than the others And you should hear the snide comments that we make And then they all call us evil Just because we're ambitious When the Dark Lord returns You know whose side we will take We're like our House founder The best of the Hogwarts Four Who left behind that monster snake Snape: But what the heck, we're friendly Join us at our table Pansy: But not if you're Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw or Gryffindor Slytherins: You really ought to give Slytherin Salazar Slytherin Riddle, Lucius, Severus Draco, Crabbe and Goyle Millicent, Pansy, Marcus Ought to give Slytherin a break! -Gail B...calling it a night _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Tue May 20 03:12:57 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 03:12:57 -0000 Subject: Treleways Prediction and True Heirs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58256 Pip!Squeak wrote: > I actually think it more likely that Arthur Weasley is the heir of > Gryffindor,not Harry. The Weasley family's given names are all > either based on Arthurian legend or on names used by the British > Royal Family. It suggests that, like the Malfoys, they're > wizarding 'royalty'. > > [The Malfoy's also have 'royal' names. Lucius brings to mind > the 'Prince of Darkness' and Draco connects with 'Pendragon'.] > > This is in keeping with the 'choices, rather than abilities' theme > throughout the books so far. Tom Riddle *chose* to be the Heir of > Slytherin. >snip, snip,snip< > Equally, Harry has made a series of choices throughout the book. He > has chosen to be a Gryffindor, chosen to fight Voldemort, chosen to > return evil with good, chosen to remain a wizard. Harry is going > through a 'growing-up' process where he chooses to be Gryffindor's > spiritual heir. >snipping RIddle's growing up process< > Blood versus choices. Perhaps Harry, with no bloodline, is the true > heir to Gryffindor (over his friend Ron, who has the bloodline). Tom > Riddle, with the bloodline, is the false heir to Slytherin. ME(Linda): I'd like to take this one step further. First, I think the idea of Arthur Weasley and his children being the blood heirs of Gryffindor is a wonderful one. It rings true with me. I don't think we have even begun to see what kind of power that Arthur may be able to weild. More importantly IMO, however, is Arthur's attitude toward muggles. Instead of fearing the unknown, he embraces it and wants to learn all that he possibly can about those whose lives are so fundamentally different from the world he knows. He is an amazingly perceptive character, able to see the potential of all creatures, wizards and muggles. He is a very wise character, although not as obviously so as Dumbledore. He exhibits a level of tolerance that I think is comparable to the way the character of Godric Griffyndor has been painted for us in cannon.(My interpretation of GG, freel free to disagree). But I'm starting to ramble so I'm going to move on to my second point. The above establishes why I agree with the Gryffindor/Weasley match-up. But what of Salizar Slytherin's blood heirs? IMHU, I nominate the Malfoys. Both families, as noted by Pip!Squeak, seem to be old wizarding families; wizard royalty as it were. The extreme hatred of all things muggle (and muggle born) defines Lucius's character to this point in canon. I think, over the course of many generations, SS's fear of muggles, having been passed down through his family, has turned to hatred of anything to do with muggles or the muggle world in general. I can't seem to get away from the fact that most hatred ,and by extension prejudice, is ultimately based in fear. Indeed, it is that fear that LV is turning to his advantage. I can't help but think that instead of being the origin of the hatred and violence that so marked his reign of terror, LV was instead the one who focused prejudices and hatreds that had already existed for generations, much like Hitler vilifying the Jews before and during WW II. I read on another site a theory that Trellaway's first prediction may have been that the heir of Gryffindor would defeat the heir of Slytherin. Could this be a confrontation between the blood heirs, Arthur and Lucius? The animosity is most certainly already there. Could the twist be that the prophecy actually had nothing to do with Harry at all and that what happened that halloween night was a totally seperate matter? Maybe the prophecy said the two heirs of each founder-the blood heir and the heir by choice would combine to unite the WW and the muggle world. Or maybe it was that the two heirs from Gryffindor would combine their respective strengths to defeat the two heirs of Slytherine. Maybe LV thought that was James and Harry? Awaiting your comments. -Linda From bard7696 at aol.com Tue May 20 03:31:43 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 03:31:43 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58257 It is conceivable that the whole Heir business is limited to Salazar Slytherin, who, if legends are true -- Warning, Warning, "Salazar As Genocidal Insitgator, Teaching Terrible Attitudes Resulting In Unbearable Sorrow (SAGITTARIUS) Theory at work here -- obviously has an agenda that he needs someone to follow. To whit, he needs someone to open the damn Chamber. Now, we've gone under the assumption that Godric would also have his Heir working against Salazar, but it's possible that there isn't one, and Harry is just an honorable, good person who happens to be in Gryffindor. Let's see, onto other things. * This Snape as vampire, dhampire, damn pyre, umpire, empire, whatever. It's amusing. BUT, keep in mind that there are several different mythologies of the vampire. In some, garlic has an effect. In others, it doesn't. In the Bram Stoker version, a vampire can go out during the day. In the White Wolf version, a vampire can't. So, any clues regarding Snape's activities and whether he's a vampire needs to remember that we don't know what the vampire rules are in JKR's world. The fact that he's out in daylight is not necessarily proof against. * I really hope we're done with Animagi for a while. And I hope no one is Polyjuiced for a while. * Jenny from Ravenclaw must not have seen my post on Trelawney being a Ravenclaw. Darn it. * OK, anyone who is posting band names or other responses to me in any, and I mean ANY, thread with "OOP" in it, save your fingers. I'm not reading a single thread that has "OOP" in the title. I plan to disappear from this board for at least a few days before OOP is released and I'm not coming back until I've read it twice. Darrin -- Maybe three times. From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 03:48:31 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520034831.56797.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58258 Darrin Wrote: It is conceivable that the whole Heir business is limited to Salazar Slytherin, who, if legends are true -- Warning, Warning, "Salazar As Genocidal Insitgator, Teaching Terrible Attitudes Resulting In Unbearable Sorrow (SAGITTARIUS) Theory at work here -- obviously has an agenda that he needs someone to follow. To whit, he needs someone to open the damn Chamber. Now, we've gone under the assumption that Godric would also have his Heir working against Salazar, but it's possible that there isn't one, and Harry is just an honorable, good person who happens to be in Gryffindor. ME: Two words about that though. Godric's Hollow. THAT is where James and Lily (and Harry lived!) Now our beloved author uses names for two reasons. Either their have some kind of humorous connotations (Sprout being the Herbology teacher!) OR they mean something. Nothing humorous about Godric's Hollow so I must assume it means something. I think Harry is without a doubt the Gryffindor Heir. I think that's why Lord Voldemort came after him in the first place. I believe Harry was a more important target to Voldemort then even James was. We'll see. Maybe not the next book though but sometime. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Tue May 20 03:50:07 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 03:50:07 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > . > > * This Snape as vampire, dhampire, damn pyre, umpire, empire, > whatever. It's amusing. BUT, keep in mind that there are several > different mythologies of the vampire. In some, garlic has an effect. > In others, it doesn't. In the Bram Stoker version, a vampire can go > out during the day. In the White Wolf version, a vampire can't. > > So, any clues regarding Snape's activities and whether he's a vampire > needs to remember that we don't know what the vampire rules are in > JKR's world. The fact that he's out in daylight is not necessarily > proof against. > It strikes me as odd that we have heard no mention yet of vampires in Rowling's books, which (to me) seems as good a support as any for Snape's being of the Vampire persuasion. Am I mistaken in saying that the Vampire is also(conspicuously) left out of her book of Magical Creatures? Elisabeth From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue May 20 04:33:41 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:33:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP Message-ID: <1ec.92f201b.2bfb0a25@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58260 In a message dated 5/19/2003 4:13:59 PM Central Standard Time, innermurk at catlover.com writes: > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person > >>looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > >>> > >>>-Anita > > > >Me: > > > Maybe its Ginny. Although I don't know if it bodes well for her to be on the cover of the book. In fact I'm a bit worried that Lupin appears to be on it as well. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue May 20 04:36:39 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:36:39 -0000 Subject: Mentions of vampires (WAS: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58261 Elisabeth wrote: > It strikes me as odd that we have heard no mention yet of vampires > in Rowling's books, which (to me) seems as good a support as any > for Snape's being of the Vampire persuasion. Actually, they're all over the place. In PS, in connection to Quirrell, for one thing. Lots of talk about garlic et al. In CoS there's mention of the twins selling amulets and IIRC, garlic (don't quote me on that). The biggest, IMO, mention of vampires is in PoA, where Lupin assigned an *essay* on vampires. Dean or Seamus says at the end of the book, when everybody finds out that Lupin is a werewolf, "I wonder who the next teacher is going to be. Maybe a vampire" (rough paraphrase). These vampire references are like Memory Charms... > Am I mistaken in > saying that the Vampire is also(conspicuously) left out of her book > of Magical Creatures? Well, I take that to mean that vampires are beings, and not beasts. Maria Alena From illyana at mindspring.com Tue May 20 05:14:56 2003 From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:14:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <1ec.92f201b.2bfb0a25@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58262 > In a message dated 5/19/2003 4:13:59 PM Central Standard Time, > innermurk at catlover.com writes: > > > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person > > >>looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > >>> > > >>>-Anita Possibly; however, I have always thought that the cover illustrations of Harry look a bit feminine (well, except for the one on OOtP). I think that it may be Cedric - perhaps he returns as a ghost in the next book. Hopefully, that does not mean that the other two people pictured are ghosts, as well. I don't know if the middle person is supposed to be Lupin, but I would hate for him to die. Plus, if the real Moody is as cool as Crouch!Moody was in GoF, I wouldn't want him to die, either. Hmmm.... illyana HPGCv1 a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com Tue May 20 05:43:03 2003 From: a_rude_mechanical at yahoo.com (a_rude_mechanical) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 05:43:03 -0000 Subject: Mentions of vampires (WAS: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: > > Actually, they're all over the place. In PS, in connection to > Quirrell, for one thing. Lots of talk about garlic et al. In CoS > there's mention of the twins selling amulets and IIRC, garlic (don't > quote me on that). The biggest, IMO, mention of vampires is in PoA, > where Lupin assigned an *essay* on vampires. Dean or Seamus says at > the end of the book, when everybody finds out that Lupin is a > werewolf, "I wonder who the next teacher is going to be. Maybe a > vampire" (rough paraphrase). > I need to clarify. I meant, our knowledge of vampires and their specific qualities in Rowling's fantasy world is slim. Yes, they're mentioned, but only that--not elaborated upon. (And yes, after I was clued in to the vampire essay, I was pretty much sold on the Snape is Vampire thing). From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue May 20 05:44:52 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 05:44:52 -0000 Subject: The Diagon Life (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58264 The Diagon Life (PoA, Chap 3-4) To the tune of The Glamorous Life from Sondheim's A Little Night Music Dedicated to Amy Z & Haggridd HARRY arrives at the Leaky Cauldron ? expecting to be expelled from Hogwarts, Fudge gives him a carte blanche to dally in Diagon Alley for the next two weeks TOM: Poor old Harry Potter led one un-merry life Did the chores and kept the garden Mowed the lawn until exhausted. Poor old Harry Potter through extraordinary strife Fled his Aunt and caught the Bus As he's pursued by Black . In fact! FUDGE: Harry, we've been in a flap, But, Harry, no harm has been done, Miss Dursley has since been punctured By our Accidental Magic Reversal Department In spite of this little scrap They'll welcome you back as a son Not till next year, it is preferred Says our Accidental Magic Reversal Department Thank you. (HARRY revels in his unprecedented freedom amidst the wonders of Diagon Alley) HARRY: Unpack my luggage, la la la, Pack up my sorrow, la la la, Sing from the rooftops, la la la, Hi-ho, the Diagon life! TOM: Sleeping in each day, la la la, FLOREAN FORTESCUE: Savoring sundaes, la la la, HARRY: All day for fun play, la la la, HARRY, FLOREAN & TOM Hi-ho, the Dursley-free life! (HARRY joins the crowd in front of Quality Quidditch to gape at the marvelous Firebolt) CROWD & HARRY State-of-the-art broom, la la la, Diamond hard polish, la la la, Pinpoint precision, la la la, Oh how the Firebolt flies! TOM: Good old Harry Potter soon congregates with friends, Herm from France and Ron from Egypt, They went shopping with each other Magical Menagerie, to help poor Scabbers mend Then a kitty, like a tiger, Greatly did upset Ron's pet! HERMIONE: Ronnie, forgive me today. My kitty is acting a bit wild. But, Ronnie, it's really all set-- I'm acquiring Crookshanks, so don't ask, "You bought that?!" But Scabbers is back now, OK This feline you can't have reviled? Don't. Ronnie, he's really no threat I'm acquiring Crookshanks, my beautiful squat cat Don't argue. (Cut to the Leaky Cauldron as the Weasleys and guests gather for dinner. The twins mess with their Head Boy brother) FRED AND GEORGE: Pretentious brother, la la la, His Head Boy badges, la la la, Humungous Bighead, la la la, Hi-ho, let's get him a life! MOLLY: King's Cross tomorrow, ALL: La la la, ARTHUR (with feigned casualness): Two cars we're driving, ALL: La la la, ARTHUR & MOLLY: MOM's merest favor, ALL: La la la, Hi-ho, the Ministry life. (Cut to the same scene 30 minutes, later, as HARRY, retrieving Scabbers' rat tonic. accidentally overhears ARTHUR & MOLLY) ARTHUR: We must tell Harry, la la la, He's not a child, la la la, He must be on guard, la la la, Sirius threatens his life. MOLLY The truth is scary, la la la, He's safe at Hogwarts, la la la, Albus protects him, la la la, Sirius can't take his life. HARRY (to himself) It could be curtains, la la la, Darkness is flirtin', la la la, But I'm assertin', la la la, Sirius won't take my life ARTHUR & MOLLY It could be curtains, la la la, Darkness is flirtin', la la la, This much is certain, la la la, Sirius won't take his . HARRY: ..Life! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 5/20/03 with 52 new filks) From echa_schneider at mac.com Tue May 20 00:00:00 2003 From: echa_schneider at mac.com (echa_schneider at mac.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:00:00 -0700 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58265 >> Anita wrote: > >> Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired > person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? >> >> Me (izaskun) >> Not if it's a teenager. It could perfectly be Neville or Seamus, >> or even one of the Weasley twins. I keep thinking it's Percy, >> though. > It can't be Neville. Neville is consistently described as round-faced. "Echa" From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue May 20 00:29:00 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:29:00 -0000 Subject: Adopted!Harry vs fanfic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote:> > Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > > The one problem with that is that Hagrid (and whoever else came to > the house) would have found the body. I believe that DD would have > checked it out as well. I can see it now. "So who was the third guy? > Funny, he looks a lot like James, only slightly younger." "What I > find strange is that he has a scar on his forehead in the exact same > place and in the exact same shape as baby Harry here. Most peculiar." This suddenly reminds me of the movie with Bruce Willis a few years back, where his eight year old self visits his 35 year old self, which the two selves confirm by showing each other scars and birthmarks. At the end of the film, we realize that the character's OLDER self has been visiting the story a few times, to help bring about a change in his life timeline. The oldest self brought the child self to visit the middle self to have self realization so that certain things might happen differently for the oldest self. Gosh, this sounds convoluted. (Hm, what was it called... perhaps googling it will come up with the title...) Well. Had to bring it up. A.J. From tristhe at hotmail.com Tue May 20 00:35:25 2003 From: tristhe at hotmail.com (tristhe Andromeda) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:35:25 -0500 Subject: name origins/meanings--lucius malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58267 Lucius Malfoy A luxurious and tempting--but ultimately false, dangerous, or back-stabbing--path or allegiance. The insidious, misleading path. Lucius--(adj) pleasing, seductive, luxurious; obscenely so. Mal--(prefix) bad, evil. Foy--(n) allegiance, goodwill, farewell gift. (from ancient root -- journey, road) Perfect Quote: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. from dictionary.com: lus.cious (adj) loo-shus 1. Sweet and pleasant to taste or smell (delicious): a luscious melon. 2. Having strong sensual or sexual appeal, seductive. 3. Richly appealing to the senses or mind: a luscious, vivid description. 4. (archaic) Excessively sweet, cloying, fulsome. [From Middle English **lucius**, alteration of 'licious', perhaps short for 'delicious'] (American Heritage Dictionary) Lus'cious (probably for lustious, from lusty, or perhaps a corruption of luxurious) 1. Sweet, delicious, very grateful to the taste, toothsome, excessively sweet or rich. 2. Cloying, fulsome: a tedious, luscious way of talking. 3. Gratifying a depraved sense, obscene. (Webster's Dictionary) luscious 1. having strong sexual appeal [syn: juicy, red-hot, voluptuous] 2. extremely pleasing to the sense of taste [syn: delectable, delicious, fulsome, pleasant-tasting, scrumptious, toothsome, yummy] (WordNet) luscious syn: delectable, distinctive, divine, exquisite, flamboyant, fulsome, lush, luxurious, mellow, opulent, ornate, palatial, piquant, rare, rich, succulent, sumptuous, toothsome, voluptuous, yummy (Roget's Thesaurus) mal (prefix) 1. Bad, badly: maladminister the medicine. 2. Abnormal, abnormally: malformation. [From Middle English, from Old French, from Latin 'male' (badly), and 'malus' (bad)] (American Heritage Dictionary) Mal- A prefix denoting ill, evil or bad. In some words it has the form 'male-': malediction, malevolent. (Webster's Dictionary) foy A farewell feast, drink, or gift, as at a wedding. [From Dutch dialect 'fooi', from Middle Dutch **foye** (journey), from Old French 'voie', from Latin 'via' (road)] (American Heritage Dictionary) Foy 1. Faith, allegiance, fealty. 2. Feast given by one about to leave. [From foi, old spelling **foy** (faith)] (Webster's Dictionary) loves, tristhe _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From madaxe at starspath.com Tue May 20 01:02:34 2003 From: madaxe at starspath.com (brassgryphon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:02:34 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies In-Reply-To: <010501c31e5c$e5456260$32a0cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > I've just been listening to PoA on CD today in the car, and noticed that while Harry was waiting for his final exam with Trelawney, he sees/hears a fly buzzing in the window. Of course, it could be just a regular ordinary fly buzzing in the window. Or something else? JKR frequently hides clues in such places, and are frequently missed until reread with further understanding. Is this just a fly? Could it have something to do with Trelawney's prediction? She clearly has no clue that she's said anything, could there have been another presence taking her over? Using her as a "voice box" to prophecy? Now that I mention it, I'm wondering if Trelawney was aware of her prediction the first time. You know, the first true prophecy? If not, then perhaps nothing she knowingly says is a true prediction. And then there's that fly . . .. I can't believe I'm getting this worked up over a fly, it just seemed . . . odd. > > Richelle > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Eh, it's just setting the stuffy room. Besides, Rowling knows better than to put yet ANOTHER Animagus into the story. And as far as I know, there are no possessing flies or possessing things that can turn into flies in Fantastic Beasts (kelpies are aquatic), so I doubt anything about the fly. I figure it's just an Oracle of Delphi moment, because that's what it's strongly reminiscent of it to me. "Brassgryphon" From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue May 20 04:23:30 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:23:30 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <007201c31e54$dcbee510$458a6750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > Anita wrote: > > > Hi all > This is about the people on the promo picture of OOtP (that I just found..so late). > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > Me (izaskun) > Not if it's a teenager. It could perfectly be Neville or Seamus, or even one of the Weasley twins. I keep thinking it's Percy, though. > CHeers, Izaskun When I first read here that someone thought it was Percy (rather than Ron, who had wavier hair in the illustrations-- thus, perhaps it was meant to look like another Weasley!) I thought of how a reader brought up whether Percy would side with his family or the Ministry in Book 5, and JKR said we would find out! So perhaps there is some importance here... (Hm, 'beware a redheaded man...' >;-) ) --A.J. From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Tue May 20 06:51:33 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 06:51:33 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58270 > > Anita wrote: > > > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired > person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? > > > > Me (izaskun) > > Not if it's a teenager. It could perfectly be Neville or Seamus, > > or even one of the Weasley twins. I keep thinking it's Percy, > > t hough. Pippin wrote: > It can't be Percy. Not unless something has happened to his > horn-rimmed glasses. I suspect this personage may be the > Potterverse equivalent of a Star Trek Redshirt--you know, a > character introduced so that he or she can be killed off to > emphasize the danger to our heroes. now me (bowlwoman): I subscribe to the "Missing Weasley Child" theory, so I think it could be an allusion to him/her. The picture looks like the ones we've seen of the Weasleys, and since the child would have died at a relatively young age, the fact that the face looks feminine wouldn't really matter (kids before puberty haven't developed the true masculine/feminine features yet). Maybe the child came back as a ghost. No one's ever said what the ghoul in the Burrow attic looked like... bowlwoman From sdpinoy2003 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 05:24:01 2003 From: sdpinoy2003 at yahoo.com (Ephrem B) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] (OOP) HarrySavesHarry (was Adopted!Harry) In-Reply-To: <001201c31e16$f6d6ec60$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: <20030520052401.78029.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58271 Interesting theory on Mrs. Figg. But in GoF, Dumdledore asks Lupin to gather the old crowd which included Arabella Figg. Which is confirmed as the same Mrs Figg that babysat Harry in the MuggleWorld. "m.steinberger" wrote:The second half of my theory - the part about Harry going back to save his infant self - doesn't really require Harry to have been adopted, so I'm changing its name to HarrySavesHarry, or HSH. All HSH needs (for justice) is that Harry have some characteristic that makes him uniquely suited to challenge Voldemort. This could be the Heir of Gryffindor theory, which I hate because it runs directly counter to JKR's choices-not-genes theme, or it could be my Adopted!Harry theory, which of course I'm quite fond of. In any case, in Barb's barb against HSH, which I clarified a few posts ago, she discussed Harry's surviving the HSH encounter with Voldemort to live incognito for 17 years until his 18-yr-old self had gone back in time, upon which his now 35-yr-old self could reveal himself. Well, I don't support this route, but it leads to such a great speculation that I'm proposing the following extension just for fun. Let's say that Voldemort has become Vapormort, infant Harry has been deposited at the Dursley's, and 18-yr-old Harry has to find somplace to hang out incognito for the long haul of the next 17 years. How about he gets himself transfigured into a little old lady and parks himself two blocks away from the Dursley's to keep an eye on his infant self? Mrs. Figg is really 18-yr-old Harry! (who is really Tom Riddle!) What's nice about this speculation is that it gives Mrs. Figg a very good reason to care so much about child Harry, and also a very good reason to waste so many years of her life as an old lady in Little Whinging, something missing from all the other hidden-identity-Mrs-Figg theories. While we're at it, I'd say that late at night, Harry!Figg transfigures him/herself further into a cat or a little bird or a spider (he's had lots of lonely hours to do nothing but learn animagic), and sneaks into child Harry's cupboard while he's sleeping. Every night, Riddle!Harry!Figg!Spider whispers sweet little nothings into child Harry's ears about how loved he is, and whispers noble big somethings into his ears about how to be a decent person, unlike the Dursleys. And that is the answer to the riddle of how Harry came out so well from the rotten Dursleys. Harry taught Harry how to be good and kind and noble and brave. And if that sounds circular, it's no worse than Harry saving Harry from the Dementors in PoA. Happy speculating! The Admiring Skeptic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rfa82 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 08:24:03 2003 From: rfa82 at yahoo.com (rfa82) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:24:03 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_rude_mechanical" wrote: > It strikes me as odd that we have heard no mention yet of vampires > in Rowling's books, which (to me) seems as good a support as any for > Snape's being of the Vampire persuasion. Am I mistaken in saying > that the Vampire is also(conspicuously) left out of her book of > Magical Creatures? > > Elisabeth Except that vampires _is_ in fact mentioned in the first book(ch. 8) Rune From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Tue May 20 08:47:29 2003 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:47:29 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: <005401c31e3b$93ad0780$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > I think, this is really possible and as I already mentioned it also would fit to the "Perseus Evens" theory I have read on this board ... > His special tendency for the dark arts could also be a result of Snape being a dhampire... vampires are dark human creatures and trerefore he could just be very talented in regard to the dark arts. > This could also explain why he wants to teach DADA. He knows a lot from his own experience. And you still don't know where he grew up... > > Yours Finchen > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Also the facts that he eats and drinks like normal people, and that he bleeds when bitten by by fluffy, while still seeming so "vampirish" in many ways, point into the dhampire direction, imho. yours, Florentine From sophiamcl at hotmail.com Tue May 20 11:34:29 2003 From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:34:29 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58275 - Anita wrote: > > > > > Anyway, am I the only one thinking that the spiky haired > > person looks a bit too feminine to be a guy? There has been about as many suggestions as posts on the subject, and I'd like to ad yet one more. Spikey haired and female, next to two former teachers... Well, assuming this is a person we already know, there is a female teacher with short hair( I can't remember if it was described as spikey, though): Madam Hooch. Maybe she is a more important person than we've previously been led to believe. She's been a background figure, really, and as far as I know has not been the cause of much speculation--but that's not to say she couldn't be, from now on! Whaddya think? Sophia From princess_tx at yahoo.com Tue May 20 12:52:21 2003 From: princess_tx at yahoo.com (Sarmi) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 05:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520125221.68478.qmail@web41405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58276 Sophia wrote: There has been about as many suggestions as posts on the subject, and I'd like to ad yet one more. Spikey haired and female, next to two former teachers... Well, assuming this is a person we already know, there is a female teacher with short hair( I can't remember if it was described as spikey, though): Madam Hooch. Maybe she is a more important person than we've previously been led to believe. She's been a background figure, really, and as far as I know has not been the cause of much speculation--but that's not to say she couldn't be, from now on! Whaddya think? Me (Sara/Sarmi): I think the spikey haired woman is either Madam Hooch OR the new DADA professor. I'm thinking that it could be Icicle, the character JKR couldn't fit into GoF. As for the two other men, well one of them is definitely Moody. But the other looks too old to be Lupin, I'm thinking Mundungus Fletcher. Well, there's my two knuts. How's that sound? Sara/Sarmi -Seduce my mind & you can have my body, find my soul & I'm yours forever. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 20 14:11:04 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:11:04 -0000 Subject: Two questions on the invisibility cloak Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58277 These may have come up before, but... First question: If the cloak makes you invisible, why is the cloak itself apparently so easy to see? I can think of three or four instances where people see it. First is when Harry receives it; both he and Ron can see it. Second is when Hermione retrieves it for Harry from the hidden passage to Honeydukes. Third is when Snape finds it near the Whomping Willow (or in the passage to the Shrieking Shack), and this occurred after sunset, not a time of day with much light. Fourth is when Lupin pockets it after all the craziness in the Shrieking Shack. There may well be others. Second question: When Ron first sees the cloak, he notes that it is both "really rare" and "really valuable". Offhand, the only other person I can think of who has one is young Barty Crouch. Does the rareness of the cloak have some larger significance? Ersatz Harry From steinber at zahav.net.il Tue May 20 14:08:18 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:08:18 +0200 Subject: HarrySavesHarry (was Adopted!Harry vs fanfic) References: <1053358622.12664.24695.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000b01c31ed9$80cc1220$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 58278 This post is enormous. Be warned. TAS > Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:42:25 -0000 > From: "psychic_serpent" > Subject: Re: Adopted!Harry vs fanfic > > The Admiring Skeptic wrote: > > 1. Harry, Dumbledore and all vanquish Voldemort > > Me(Barb): > > Do you mean when Harry does this at 18? This is still a little > unclear. > TAS round 2: Yes. Before 18-yr-old Harry goes back in time, Voldemort has been vanquished once and for all by 18-yr-old Harry, Dumbledore and crew. > 2. Dumbledore tells Harry that when he was 1 yr old, his 18-yr-old > self had appeared out of the future and saved his life, but died in > the process. > > Me: > > You still haven't explained how Dumbledore knows this. This was > what I meant by fanfic writing forcing a person to flesh out > everything; someone writing a fic that included this would be ripped > apart by reviewers demanding to know how Dumbledore came by this > information. > TAS round 2: As I wrote in the post you are quoting, when 18-yr-old Harry goes back 17 years, he first stops in to visit Dumbledore, tells him all sorts of things about the next 17 years, and then goes off to Godric's Hollow to save his infant self. Dumbledore in year 18 has the information in question both from what he heard from 18YO Harry back in year 1, and from what he learned after the Godric's Hollow episode. He may have gone there and confirmed Harry's death, or he may have helped hide a not-dead 18YO Harry, if you prefer that route. In any case, in year 18, he knew that Harry had gone back to year 1 because back in year 1, 18YOHarry had said, "Hi! I'm here!." As for Dumbledore knowing that 18YOHarry had died there at Godric's Hollow - if you want to postulate with me that Harry did die there - then Year 18 Dumbledore would know because when 18YO Harry visited D in year 1, 18YO Harry told D that he was going to Godric's Hollow to die, which Harry knew because Year18 Dumbledore had told him so. This is perfectly circular information, but time-turner-style time travel allows circular information. Year1 Dumbledore hears from 18YO Harry that Year18 Dumbledore told Harry that Harry would go back to Godric's Hollow and die. Harry goes to Godric's Hollow and dies. If Dumbledore shows up and sees (and buries) the body, he has his own confirmation. But if Dumbledore never sees the body, he can still assume that Harry must have died and can still tell Harry in Year 18 that he is going to die after going back to Year1. You have Year1Dumbledore thinking that Harry's going to die because Year18Dumbledore thought so, because Year1Dumbledore thought so, because Year18Dumbledore thought so, etc. With time travel, this is perfectly legitimate. We can still have HarrySavingHarry without Harry dying, of course. If so, Harry may or may not have believed he was going to die, which is to say that Dumbledore may have told Harry that he was going back in time to his death, or he may have told Harry that he was going back in time to suffer 17 years in hiding. Either route would still allow Harry to save Harry. If Dumbledore told Harry that Harry would die, and we presume that Dumbledore believed it, then it would follow that 18YO Harry stopped in to visit Year1Dumbledore, would have told him about his impending "death" and then would not have gone back to correct the misinformation after he survived Godric's Hollow. He would have gone into hiding and would not have contacted Dumbledore for the next 17 years, so that in Year18, Dumbledore would still think that Harry must have died. (How, with no body? Dumbledore might have spent 17 years wondering where the body was, and would have decided that Harry must have died because otherwise he'd have shown himself. Meanwhile, Harry would be hiding from Dumbledore on the assumption that if Year18 Dumbledore didn't know that Harry had survived, then Harry must have remained hidden for 17 years, and the "don't be seen" rule would apply even to Dumbledore.) Of course, it is possible that 18YO Harry told Year1 Dumbledore that Year18 Dumbledore had told him that he was due to die at Godric's Hollow, and then 18YO Harry actually survived Godric's Hollow, went back to Dumbledore, and said, "That's odd. I didn't die!" Then 18YO Harry goes into hiding for 17 years, and when Year 18 comes around, Year18 Dumbledore tells Year18 18YOHarry the untruth that Harry is going to die because Year18 Dumbledore doesn't want to change the time-line which had Year1 Dumbledore learning that Year18 Dumbledore had said Harry would die. The only benefit of such a scenario is that Harry gets the moral dilemma of whether he willing to die, and the fans get the happy ending of a live Harry. So onward to the next possibility: Maybe Year18 Dumbdore tells 18YO Harry that if he goes back he will be forced to hide out for 17 years. Harry still has a serious choice to make, and hopefully you can figure out without my help how Dumbledore would have known this. The reason I did not post all this originally is that I was under the impression that this list is sick of circular, head-ache-producing time-tracing. But whether or not the list enjoys reading this kind of pedantry, JKR has already included circular time situations in her books, so she might well do so again. As for your plug for fanfic, you are welcome to enjoy the genre, but from what I've seen, it doesn't "force" a person to think things through. People who enjoy and are good at thinking thoroughly will do so even in dry analytic research papers. And people who like to create illogical, missing links will do so in fanfic too. The non-fanfic way of presenting possibilities has the advantage that one can pursue a few related possibilities at once, as I just have. The advantage to fanfic is that it's more fun to read. But then, I did not intend to bore this list until you pushed me to the wall. So far, every issue you have raised is one I have already thought about and evaluated, and even posted. But I apologise for having originally posted my position so very tersely, and such obscure language, that you could not follow what I meant. I assumed everyone was too sick of time turning to want to hear any more. > 3. Harry has to decide whether to go back "again." > > 4. What happened "the first time" on the night James and Lily died > was this: 18-yr-old Harry showed up, went to Dumbeldore and told him > quite a bit about the "future," then went to Godric's Hollow, but > did not save his parents for some reason (any reason will do, like > he was too late). Then he jumped between infant!Harry and Voldemort > just as V was AKing infant!Harry, and also attacked Voldemort at the > same time. The result of both spells was probably some more > priori incatatum at first, but eventually, 18-yr-old Harry ended up > dead, infant!Harry ended up scarred, and Voldemort ended up a wraith. > > Me: > > This still doesn't add up. If infant!Harry was protected, he > shouldn't have a scar of any sort. According to Dumbledore it is a > curse scar, and years later, it hurts when Voldemort is being > particularly evil and also connects Harry to him so that he is > essentially a witness to Frank Bryce's murder. From GoF, we know > that Harry and Voldemort attacking each other simultaneously results > in their wands locking, not curses being delivered to either of > them. And why would the results be so different? Why would Harry > be dead-dead, but Voldemort end up as a wraith? If Harry simply > came between Voldemort and his infant self, assuming that Voldemort > can kill the eighteen year old version of Harry, then Harry should > simply be deadm nothing should happen to Voldemort, and infant!Harry > should have no scar. If Harry is attacking at the same time, their > wands will lock and neither one's spell reaches the other. This > theory still throws everything we know in canon out the window. TAS round 2: Who says infant!Harry was protected from more than just being physically touched by Voldemort? And who says Dumbledore really knows what happened at Godric's Hollow? If 18YO Harry went off to save infant!Harry after saying hello to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore showed up after it was all over, he could only be guessing about what happened there. Dumbledore keeps saying "I think," not "I know" when he tells Harry things. He may really be telling his best guesses. Let's agree that Harry's got a curse scar. Which curse? Maybe in the duel between 18YO Harry and Voldemort some other curse went flying and hit infant!Harry? And no canon says definitively that the main reason Harry's psychically linked to Voldemort is because of the scar. That idea is clearly written in canon as a best guess (sorry, books still lent out or I'd give you chapter and verse). Personally, I believe the psychic link is because Harry is really Adopted!Harry, who is really Tom Riddle following an alternative development in the same time-line. (I'm not going to go into all the details of that idea here, but I hope you believe from the prior piece of this post that I could if you really insisted.) When Voldemort is particularly intense, the link opens up, and V is always most intense when he's most evil. Why does Harry feel pain in his scar when the link opens up? I don't know, but you can't really think that the only possibility is an AK direct from V to infant!Harry. A wee bit of imagination is enough to confirm a dozen equally likely reasons for scar pain to coincide with psychic linkage. Dumbledore's best guess based on limited information can still be wrong. And Dumbledore might even know the real reason but be unwilling to share it (Adopted!Harry would be a nice reason not to rush to tell). >From GoF we know about wands locking. But we know the lock can be broken because in the graveyard Harry got away. I suppose that in Godric's Hollow the wands locked, then Harry or V broke loose, and then they went at each other again, not simultaneously, with curses that left Harry dead and V a wraith. How do you do non-simultaneous spells? First V hits 18YO Harry with a blood-letting spell (or he just stabs him with a sword), which takes a few seconds, and in those seconds 18YO Harry hits V with a Vapormortifying spell. Why didn't V just AK Harry? Pick the reason of your choice. Maybe 18YO Harry had already dispossessed V of his wand and without a wand, V couldn't do AK. Truth is, none of this requires the wands to lock at all. 18YO Harry and V could have done non-simultaneous spells from the beginning and acheived the results we know about. On the other hand, perhaps Harry was not killed, and he Vapormortified V and then went into 17 yrs of hiding. My HarrySavesHarry theory is much more about 18YO Harry saving infant!Harry than about Harry dying at the end. As I've mentioned dozens of times by now, it can work either way. Either way, infant!Harry would have already gotten his scar from some other curse than an AK from V. As for the green light, maybe an AK from 18YO Harry to V was what Vapormortified V, since V "didn't have enough human left in him to die" from an AK. So infant!Harry's memories of an AK would have been 18YO Harry's AK to V. As for the high laugh, there's been plenty of debate on this list over whether Harry really remembers those voices he hears in PoA, or whether he's projecting them from what he's been told. One thing's for sure, V was the only person left from that battle to tell the tale, and we don't have to trust his account at all. He would have plenty of reason to hide the fact that 18YO Harry had been there. > > TAS: > > How to Time-Turn 18 years? I'll let JKR decide that. She has no > constraints at all. As for the rest of your complaints, Harry did > not live till 35, and he blocked the AK exactly the way canon has > already shown us he can. > > Me: > > No, he doesn't. Canon does not have him 'blocking' AK. It has him > acquiring a scar because of it and bouncing it back at Voldemort. > This theory bears no resemblance whatsoever to canon. > TAS round 2: Canon has Harry blocking an AK in the graveyard by the wands locking. That's the blocking I meant in the post you quoted above. But in my *theory*, I am not committed to any one way of blocking V's AK. The simplest block would be for 18YO Harry to physically get in the way and get killed. He might have hit V with a slow-acting Vapormortifiying spell first, and infant!Harry might have been hit by some other spell to get his scar. Another form of "blocking" would be the one I suggested in the prior section of this post: 18YO Harry distracts V so that V never tries to AK infant!Harry at all. All V does is fight 18YO Harry, and in the duel, 18YO Harry ends up dead or not, infant!Harry gets a scar from some misdirected curse, and V gets Vapormortified. A third form of blocking would be the locked wands kind, which would allow V to actually try to AK infant!Harry, but 18YO Harry would get in the way so the AK was really at him, and 18YO Harry would aim a coutercurse which would lock the wands, giving 18YO Harry time to gain the upper hand before breaking the link between the wands and sending V to Vaporland. I'm sure a few more blocking scenarios could be devised. > TAS: > > As for Lily's sacrifice - Dumbledore did not say that her sacrifice > saved Harry's life. > > Me: > > Well, technically he does say that. He says, "Your mother died to > save you." But I understand that you are saying that there isn't an > explicit statement to the effect that her sacrifice caused the AK to > rebound onto Voldemort. It is, however IMPLICIT, especially in > combination with the above statment from Dumbledore. > TAS round 2: It is not implied in the slightest. Lily died *in order* to save infant!Harry. It doesn't say *at all* that Lily's sacrifice actually saved Harry. Her intention was for his life to be saved. But what happened after that? Who knows? Truth is, she might not even has expected Harry to survive, but like all mothers, she couldn't "step aside" to save herself and watch him die. She probably died just to give him those few extra seconds. Lily's willingness to die was what gave Harry's skin it's painful quality for V. That's all we know. NOTHING MORE! > TAS: > > Canon still has not told us what saved his life. All we have been > told is that her sacrifice protected Harry at age 11 from being > physically touched by Voldemort. We have no canon whatsoever that > Harry can't be AKed, even by Voldemort, just the fact that Voldemort > attempted one AK against Harry that failed. Why is still a mystery. > > Me: > > The rest of Dumbledore's speech is the implicit statement of > protection: > > "He didn't realise that love as powerful as your mother's for you > leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign...to have been > loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will > give us some protection for ever. It is in your very skin. > Quirrell, full of hatred, greed and ambition, sharing his soul with > Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to > touch a person marked by something so good." > > This strongly implies that this protection was present when > Voldemort attempted to AK Harry, meaning that he could not be > touched by Voldemort neither by his hand or a spell, especially a > spell designed to kill Harry. > TAS round 2: This strongly states that Lily's "love" will give Harry ***some*** protection forever, and that "Quirrel... couldn't *touch* you." It doesn't even say that her sacrifice did it. It certainly doesn't say that Harry is immune to AKs. > TAS: > > I think that this sort of forum can deal with numerous speculative > details in a much briefer format than fanfic, which I am not leery > of, but generally have no patience for. Another nice feature of this > kind of post rather than fanfic is that one can be honest about > which details could go more than one way, and explore various > options, whereas fanfic, to maintain a plot, must pick one route and > ignore the rest. > > Me: > > While it is true that you have to pick one route and go with it in > fanfic, you also have to fully flesh out things like how Dumbledore > would know that Harry had traveled back in time, saved himself in > infancy, caused Voldemort to become a wraith and died in the > execution of all of this. > TAS round 2: Fanfic cannot present the dozens of valid routes that I have, nor can it be as boring as I have been. Non-fanfic is a blessing when it is brief, and when the readers understand that details left undeveloped are left alone because they are not important. It doesn't matter how 18YO Harry Vapormortified V at Godric's Hollow, if there are a dozen valid ways for him to do so. As soon as we agree that there are plenty of valid ways for something to happen, we can accept the premise as valid without going into every one of those many valid routes. > TAS: > > For example, there is nothing in my theory that precludes Harry > living till 35. > > Me: > > Um, yeah, there is. The part about him dying at 18 sort of > precludes his living until 35. > TAS round 2: No, the theory is HarrySavesHarry, and I prefer the version of it that has Harry dying in the process, but Harry can save Harry and survive. > Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > > The one problem with that is that Hagrid (and whoever else came to > the house) would have found the body. I believe that DD would have > checked it out as well. I can see it now. "So who was the third guy? > Funny, he looks a lot like James, only slightly younger." "What I > find strange is that he has a scar on his forehead in the exact same > place and in the exact same shape as baby Harry here. Most peculiar." > > Me: > > Good point, Kelly! (Although I still think that there would be no > reason for Harry to have a scar if he was protected in this way.) > What would happen to the body? If the older Harry had died at > Godric's Hollow, there'd be some trace of him. Even if Dumbledore > had gone to Godric's Hollow first and disposed of it, which canon > also does not suggest (it doesn't seem that he's been to GH at all), > it's still unclear how he would know that it was 18-year-old Harry > who'd traveled back through time (when dead it would probably be > hard to pinpoint his age except to say that he would probably look > like he was somewhere between 16 and 21) not to mention it would be > impossible for Dumbledore to know that the reason he'd died was that > he was protecting his younger self. The level of omniscience > necessary for Dumbledore to know all of these things borders on the > god-like. I like the guy, but I'm not yet ready to elevate him to > this level. > TAS round 2: I think I've already dealt with this. If Harry died, after visiting Dumbledore, then Dumbledore would know exactly who the body belonged to. And if Dumbledore knew 18YO Harry was going to Godric's Hollow, he probably would have gone too and would certainly have dealt with the body. Why wouldn't he have saved 18YO Harry? Here's where my plea for "skip the exact valid route" comes in. Maybe he tripped on a pothole and was unconscious for the critical 2 minutes. Maybe he was fighting alongside 18YO Harry and failed anyway. Maybe Malfoy Sr. showed up and dueled him for a few minutes. I don't care. As long as there are plenty of valid ways for Dumbledore to have known 18YO Harry was off to Godric's Hollow and yet not save him, it's enough to say that 18YO Harry *could have* gone to Godric's Hollow and died there with Dumbldore's knowlege. The rest can be left to JKR. Of course, as I've said before, Harry could have saved Harry without dying at all. And then he'd scoot before Hagrid showed up because "you must not be seen." > --Barb The Admiring Skeptic P.S. Apologies to everyone who can't stand this stuff. I tried a few tamer posts on this subject before Barb's barbs drove me to it. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue May 20 14:39:15 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:39:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two questions on the invisibility cloak Message-ID: <1c3.9d85aaf.2bfb9813@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58279 In a message dated 5/20/2003 9:14:18 AM Central Standard Time, ersatzharry at yahoo.com writes: > First question: If the cloak makes you invisible, why is the cloak > itself apparently so easy to see? I In your examples the cloak isn't actually being used to 'conceal' something. Its basically just lying about. I think for the invisibilty factor to kick there as to be a desire to hide. As for it rareness . .I just think that means we don't need to be looking for people to pop up in them everywhere Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Tue May 20 14:41:23 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:41:23 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58280 Elisabeth wrote: > It strikes me as odd that we have heard no mention yet of vampires > in Rowling's books, which (to me) seems as good a support as any for > Snape's being of the Vampire persuasion. Am I mistaken in saying > that the Vampire is also(conspicuously) left out of her book of > Magical Creatures? > > Elisabeth Vampires are mentioned in all four books, as well as in Magical Creatures, where we are told that, since they're beings, they do not belong to that book (like giants, humans or elves). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 20 15:23:14 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:23:14 -0000 Subject: Fawkes = Traitor? In-Reply-To: <20030519153301.69426.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > > > Valky: > >> Not really sure about what Fawkes leaning is in good or evil. Huggs Becky: > One other thing, I have a sneaky suspicion that cannot be confirmed that Phoenix's are noble good creatures so I bet he is indeed oriented on a good/evil basis. In other words the great loyalty that Phoenix's display I think would only be given to those who are worthy of that loyalty. There is no cannon on this of course. > Annemehr: Actually, there is *some* canon that Becky is on the right track, IMO. >From FBAWTFT: "...The phoenix is a gentle creature that has never been known to kill and eats only herbs. Like the Diricawl (see page 9), it can disappear and reappear at will. Phoenix song is magical; it is reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure. Phoenix tears have powerful healing properties." The "gentle creature" and "phoenix song" items both, as I see it, point to the nobility of phoenixes. (By the way, it looks like it should be "phoenices," but no one ever writes it that way -- does anybody know?) Interesting point about vanishing like the Diricawl (which FB says can vanish in a puff of feathers and reappear somewhere else, and which muggles used to know as the "Dodo"). I suppose that's how Fawkes got into the Chamber of Secrets so quickly. And of course, Fawkes' song has had exactly the stated effects on Harry (more than once) and Voldemort. Annemehr "I'm /not/ going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 20 15:34:59 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:34:59 -0000 Subject: House Elves and DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > As the Great Amanda says, both Dobby > and Winky are unusual in that they do not think/feel the way other > House Elves do. Annemehr: Does anyone else besides me think that Dobby would actually have been quite happy (as the kitchen elves are) to act like a "normal" house elf, except that his life with the Malfoys pushed him past his limits? I think that having to survive their horrible treatment, together with his horror at the Diary plot, is what made him grow into the extraordinary elf that he is now. Achieving new strenghts and nobility of character through adversity: sound like anyone else we know? Annemehr "I'm /not/ going to be muredered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. From monkshoodgardens at cox.net Tue May 20 15:27:54 2003 From: monkshoodgardens at cox.net (monkshoodgardens at cox.net) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:27:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney's prediction and flies References: Message-ID: <00fe01c31ee4$626b93e0$6601a8c0@Cx313818a> No: HPFGUIDX 58283 ----- Original Message ----- From: brassgryphon To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 6:02 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney's prediction and flies --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > I've just been listening to PoA on CD today in the car, and noticed that while Harry was waiting for his final exam with Trelawney, he sees/hears a fly buzzing in the window. Of course, it could be just a regular ordinary fly buzzing in the window. Or something else? JKR frequently hides clues in such places, and are frequently missed until reread with further understanding. Is this just a fly? Could it have something to do with Trelawney's prediction? She clearly has no clue that she's said anything, could there have been another presence taking her over? Using her as a "voice box" to prophecy? Now that I mention it, I'm wondering if Trelawney was aware of her prediction the first time. You know, the first true prophecy? If not, then perhaps nothing she knowingly says is a true prediction. And then there's that fly . . .. I can't believe I'm getting this worked up over a fly, it just seemed . . . odd. > > Richelle > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Eh, it's just setting the stuffy room. Besides, Rowling knows better than to put yet ANOTHER Animagus into the story. And as far as I know, there are no possessing flies or possessing things that can turn into flies in Fantastic Beasts (kelpies are aquatic), so I doubt anything about the fly. I figure it's just an Oracle of Delphi moment, because that's what it's strongly reminiscent of it to me. "Brassgryphon" You know, beetle wings often make buzzing sounds that can be misinterpreted as flies or other similar-sounding flying insects - since this was from Harry's POV, I have always assumed that 'the fly' was really Rita in her animagus form....afterall, Harry was drowsy, in a stupor and just interpreted the buzzing to be a fly.... My .02.... Macha Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Tue May 20 15:43:53 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:43:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort kills James and Lilly-why not send the Death-eaters to do it? References: <002801c31d98$ced1b430$f28b6750@takun> <000901c31dac$022649f0$2dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <002501c31ee6$9e28ef20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58284 > > Me (Izaskun) > Agree. What about Arthur??? I bet Lucius Malfoy would be only too glad to finish him. Or better still, they could kill each other in a terrible fight, just like King Arthur killed Lucius after being mortally wounded by him. MMMMM, sort of makes sense. Doesn't it??? Imagine Ron and DRaco at school afterwards... Kelly: I thought King Arthur and Mordred (his son) killed each other? Me: Classically, Arthur would have killed Mordred and been mortally wounded. Because then you have the classic scene of Arthur in the boat with the three queens being taken to Avalon. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue May 20 14:50:21 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:50:21 -0000 Subject: Two questions on the invisibility cloak In-Reply-To: <1c3.9d85aaf.2bfb9813@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58285 > In your examples the cloak isn't actually being used to 'conceal' something. > Its basically just lying about. I think for the invisibilty factor to kick > there as to be a desire to hide. > Here's two more questions: 1. Does the invisibility cloak have to be _over_ something to hide it, or can it just be _infront_ of something?(i.e. invisibility curtain) 2. Can DD see through invisibity cloaks? I seem to remember something about that in PS/SS, but i'm not sure. Oh, and a third question: 3. Do you think spells work on an I-cloak, like an enlargment charm, or would it interfere with the magic? ~Calimora (I have no cents; looking to barrow two of yours) From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue May 20 14:41:29 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:41:29 -0000 Subject: Oh no! A 'special fan...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ajlboston" wrote: > As far as I've seen, we've been all taking JKR's mention of "a > special fan" of Harry literally (who meets their end, perhaps in > the 'unbearable sacrifice' from the Scholastic summary). > > Suddenly, I saw clearly how that phrase reads if you hear it, er, > ironically, tongue in cheek, sarcastically, expanded meaning, or > whatever is the appropriate term... > Hmmm. If you want to take 'special fan' sacasticaly then the people most at risk of death are the Malfoys and the Dursleys. My money would be on the Dursley's. The interplay between Draco and Lucius is to vital to the feeling of impotent anger - dang, he's evil! But since i'm a good guy, i cant do anything until i can prove it! Also, Draco's good/evil decision once he grows up is to important to the theme to let him get picked off young. So.... The Dursleys. Calimora (Lurker) From innermurk at catlover.com Tue May 20 17:06:10 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:06:10 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies OOP ref. at end In-Reply-To: <00fe01c31ee4$626b93e0$6601a8c0@Cx313818a> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > You know, beetle wings often make buzzing sounds that can be misinterpreted as flies or other similar-sounding flying insects - since this was from Harry's POV, I have always assumed that 'the fly' was really Rita in her animagus form....afterall, Harry was drowsy, in a stupor and just interpreted the buzzing to be a fly.... That makes me wonder if Rita heard Trelawny's prediction. She sure didn't do anything about it if she did, or at least we didn't hear about it. If she does know about it though, it really makes you wonder what she'll do now since she knows about Sirius as well. I don't trust her, and I'm sure she'll be up to all kinds of hijinx. I had a crazy thought: What if Rita Skeeter is the new DADA teacher? Fits her poisonous personality doesn't it? Courteous to your face and really nasty behind your back. Then she'll be close to Hermione....eeek. Innermurk (hoping it's not true) From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue May 20 17:26:00 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:26:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney's prediction and flies OOP ref. at end References: Message-ID: <000301c31ef4$e2c460c0$4bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58288 Innermurk: > > I had a crazy thought: What if Rita Skeeter is the new DADA teacher? > Fits her poisonous personality doesn't it? Courteous to your face and > really nasty behind your back. Then she'll be close to > Hermione....eeek. Except Dumbledore wouldn't hire her. He has forbidden her to be on the school grounds, which is when she resorted to beetle form and hanging out with the Slytherins. Plus does she even have any background in DADA? I can't even see the Ministry being able to justify her appointment unless she minored in DADA when she went for journalism. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue May 20 17:32:00 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:32:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP References: <20030520125221.68478.qmail@web41405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c31ef5$b8d28110$4bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58289 > Sophia wrote: > There has been about as many suggestions as posts on the subject, and I'd like to ad yet one more. Spikey haired and female, next to two former teachers... Well, assuming this is a person we already know, there is a female teacher with short hair( I can't remember if it was described as spikey, though): Madam Hooch. Maybe she is a more important person than we've previously been led to believe. She's been a background figure, really, and as far as I know has not been the cause of much speculation--but that's not to say she couldn't be, from now on! Whaddya think? > > Me (Sara/Sarmi): > > I think the spikey haired woman is either Madam Hooch OR the new DADA professor. I'm thinking that it could be Icicle, the character JKR couldn't fit into GoF. > Madam Hooch has gray hair, so I would rule her out, unless she dyed it somehow. > As for the two other men, well one of them is definitely Moody. But the other looks too old to be Lupin, I'm thinking Mundungus Fletcher. > Lupin is in his mid thirties, but he looks older because of the life he's had. His hair is prematurely gray. I do think this man is Lupin just by looking in the eyes. They have the look of a careworn man, which would fit Lupin to a T. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From innermurk at catlover.com Tue May 20 17:38:41 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:38:41 -0000 Subject: OOP: DADA teacher and others In-Reply-To: <000301c31ef4$e2c460c0$4bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Innermurk: > > > > I had a crazy thought: What if Rita Skeeter is the new DADA teacher? > > Fits her poisonous personality doesn't it? Courteous to your face and > > really nasty behind your back. Then she'll be close to > > Hermione....eeek. > > Except Dumbledore wouldn't hire her. He has forbidden her to be on the > school grounds, which is when she resorted to beetle form and hanging out > with the Slytherins. Plus does she even have any background in DADA? I > can't even see the Ministry being able to justify her appointment unless she > minored in DADA when she went for journalism. I agree DD wouldn't ever hire her, but what if DD isn't there? Fudge threatened to remove him from the school, and he agrees with Rita, or at least he chooses to believe her latest reports on Harry. I'm not saying that she is the new teacher, but it is an intriguing what if..... If Fudge is ESE this would be a good chance for him to disrupt the school. Here are some more what ifs..... If DD is gone who will the new headmaster be? McGonagall is the obvious choice, but what if Moody came in. His picture has to be there for a reason, and I can't see him volunteering to teach again, but maybe to run the school, or be head of security. What if the man most think is Lupin (the center figure from the promo stand pic) is actually the new headmaster? Who will he be, and will he be good or evil? (impotence of authorities at Hogwarts) Innermurk From shokoono at gmx.de Tue May 20 14:03:58 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (Carolin M?nkemeyer) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:03:58 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mentions of vampires (WAS: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor) References: Message-ID: <002201c31eda$050f52e0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58291 Hi! I do not think you would find something about a vampire in any book about magical creatures except for it would be a part of an anthology about DADA. So one better trys out that section to find out anything about one and not a book used in CoMC. Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Tue May 20 14:00:21 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:00:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] name origins/meanings--lucius malfoy References: Message-ID: <002101c31eda$042d7e60$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58292 Hi! This is a good explanation. But I've got something to add: Lucius could also referr to Lucifer (devil) or Loci (from old germanic /nordish mythology). Both are no one I would like to stay with for a second .... yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ptolrud at attbi.com Tue May 20 17:27:24 2003 From: ptolrud at attbi.com (Peggy Tolrud) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:27:24 -0500 Subject: HarrySavesHarry (was Adopted!Harry) In-Reply-To: <1053388014.8046.85650.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000801c31ef5$173891f0$6d4bd00c@Tolrud1> No: HPFGUIDX 58293 The Admiring Skeptic: Let's say that Voldemort has become Vapormort, infant Harry has been deposited at the Dursley's, and 18-yr-old Harry has to find somplace to hang out incognito for the long haul of the next 17 years. How about he gets himself transfigured into a little old lady and parks himself two blocks away from the Dursley's to keep an eye on his infant self? Mrs. Figg is really 18-yr-old Harry! (who is really Tom Riddle!) What's nice about this speculation is that it gives Mrs. Figg a very good reason to care so much about child Harry, and also a very good reason to waste so many years of her life as an old lady in Little Whinging, something missing from all the other hidden-identity-Mrs-Figg theories. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi. I'm new to the list and have been enjoying reading the posts. I thought this idea was intriguing as it would also explain why Mrs. Figg apparently 'broke her leg' the day of Dudley's birthday trip to the zoo. If she was just a witch placed in the neighborhood to watch over Harry, then she could have had it magically repaired and still babysat Harry. But if she was Harry, then she would know she needed to make that excuse so Harry would go with the Dursleys. Peg From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue May 20 17:51:59 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:51:59 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction In-Reply-To: <00c001c31e5b$31a10800$458a6750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > Bluesqueak wrote: Pip!Squeak. It's Pip!Squeak [grin]. > > I suspect that Trelawney's *first* prediction was made to a very > select audience. Of our current cast of characters, Snape would > make most sense. > > Snape because he is certainly reporting to Dumbledore in GoF and > could thus reasonably be expected to have reported the first > genuine prophecy to Dumbledore, *but* may have also had to report > it (in his DE role) to Voldemort (especially if he wasn't alone at > the time). > I (izaskun) ask: > > Ok, Snape heard the prediction. But how? and when, and where??? > Snape was not a teacher back then. He joined Hogwarts after LV's > defeat. So he couldn't be near Trelawney, who I think was already > a teacher. Pip!Squeak: I agree entirely that Snape was probably not a teacher until after the fall of Voldemort. As you say, Sirius's surprise at learning Snape was at Hogwarts suggests his teaching career started *after* Sirius was banged up in Azkaban. But what canon is there to say that Trelawney was teaching at Hogwarts before the fall of Voldemort? Wouldn't it be more likely that she would be hired *after* her first real prediction? McGonagall says that 'True Seers are very rare'. [CoS Ch. 6 p.84]. That would suggest that someone who obviously *is* a True Seer (if rarely) would be someone to hire. In fact, it explains precisely why Dumbledore has hired such an apparently obvious fraud. Trelawney can teach the students the basics, she's a good lesson in 'how to spot fraudulent predictions', and she actually does have the Gift. So I would suspect that Trelawney, in the absence of any definite canon, was hired post first prediction, not before it. Another argument for Trelawney not having been at Hogwarts is that McGonagall obviously doesn't believe that Professor Trelawney is a True Seer. That suggests she personally has heard no hint that Trelawney has produced at least one genuine prediction. While it's possible that the first prediction (like the second) was made to one person who reported it only to Dumbledore, it adds credence to the idea that Trelawney's first prediction was not made at Hogwarts. Further argument for Snape being the witness to the first prediction - it's McGonagall who makes all the snippy comments to Trelawney. We know that Snape's no slouch in this department; but Trelawney gets no sarcastic Snape commentary. Why? Easiest explanation - he knows she's not a fraud. Izaskun: > I think DD witnessed Trelawney's first prediction, and LV knew about it by some way or the other. There were a lot of spies for both sides in those days. Or maybe LV didn't know the prediction, he just went after the Potters because he an extremely evel centaur told him about Saturn and Mars brighting unusually the night Harry was born, or whatever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pip!Squeak: Possible - but the easiest route is Snape. He's the one person we currently know of who would have good reason to tell *both* Voldemort and Dumbledore. If Snape is a witness, no extra spies are required. If Dumbledore is the sole witness, we have to explain how Voldemort found out, and why Snape doesn't share McGonagall's obvious contempt for Trelawney. Pip!Squeak From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 20 18:27:06 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:27:06 -0000 Subject: HarrySavesHarry (was Adopted!Harry) In-Reply-To: <001201c31e16$f6d6ec60$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "m.steinberger" wrote: > Let's say that Voldemort has become Vapormort, infant Harry has been > deposited at the Dursley's, and 18-yr-old Harry has to find somplace > to hang out incognito for the long haul of the next 17 years. How > about he gets himself transfigured into a little old lady and parks > himself two blocks away from the Dursley's to keep an eye on his > infant self? Mrs. Figg is really 18-yr-old Harry! Putting aside any connection of Potter to Riddle, Mrs. Figg is one of "the old crowd" and seems likely to have been born well before Harry. Ersatz Harry, who needs a BALDERDASH-like acronym for all this time-travel loopiness From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue May 20 18:30:26 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:30:26 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh no! A 'special fan...' References: Message-ID: <002d01c31efd$e2f39800$f015253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58296 AJ wrote: Maybe I shouldn't have gotten out of bed at this hour to log on and post this, but ten minutes ago it somehow came to me... (having recently rerereread POA, my favorite...) As far as I've seen, we've been all taking JKR's mention of "a special fan" of Harry literally (who meets their end, perhaps in the 'unbearable sacrifice' from the Scholastic summary). Suddenly, I saw clearly how that phrase reads if you hear it, er, ironically, tongue in cheek, sarcastically, expanded meaning, or whatever is the appropriate term... Do you? <:-o Maybe it's the hour, and I should get some more sleep... But I decided to post this instead of just wait and see. Me: (Izaskun) You mean Draco???? No way. Snape?? No way. They're both very much needed for the story. This has already been discussed, endlessly, i'd say. CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Tue May 20 18:53:58 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:53:58 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58297 >"Grey Wolf" wrote: > Vampires are mentioned in all four books, as well as in Magical > Creatures, where we are told that, since they're beings, they do not > belong to that book (like giants, humans or elves). Me, (who incredulously does not yet have the Magical Creatures book), would also like to add that Percy states in GoF that vampires are considered "Non-Wizard Part-Humans". Hope that also helps. I love all the little hints towards Snape being a vampire throughout the series, but the one thing that has always caused doubt in my mind is the fact that Harry has seen numerous pictures of vampires in his DADA classes and never once sees any resemblence between them and Snape. from PoA: "Harry had never met a vampire, but he had seen pictures of them in his Defense Against the Dark Arts classes, and Black, with his waxy white skin, looked just like one." -Tanya From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue May 20 18:33:57 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:33:57 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: Where Harry might go in book five? References: Message-ID: <003901c31efe$60b7a380$f015253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58299 Bluesqueak wrote: Pip!Squeak: I don't think the illustration is of the Riddle house. 'SS' appears to be carved in the top left buttress of the house (rather snaky 'S' as well). On the middle left, one of the carvings looks as if it *might* be a cobra's head, open to strike (above the open window). Me (Izaskun): You know, I was looking at the cover, and those !SS! carved in the buttress didn't look at all like 'SS' to me. They look exactly like 'GG'. At least that's the way I write a capital G. Godric's Hollow then??? Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 20 19:39:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:39:09 -0000 Subject: Fawkes and the Heir (was Fawkes = Traitor?) In-Reply-To: <20030519153301.69426.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > > ME: Yea one argument against that theory which I'm sure you've thought out is Dumbledore's comment in CoS that "You must have shown a lot of loyalty to me, Harry. Only that could have brought Fawkes." ... that means Fawke's loyalty is to Dumbledore, not Harry. > > ... Phoenix's are noble good creatures so ... oriented on a good/evil basis. ... great loyalty that Phoenix's ... only be given to those who are worthy of that loyalty. > > Huggs Becky bboy_mn: Sorry, pardon me while I digress. I agree that it is in the general nature of a Phoenix to be loyal to those who are brave, noble, and pure of heart, and that brings me to my own personal Heir of Gryffindor theory. Actually, one of many theories. There, conceptually, are two kinds of Heirs; heir by birthright and heir by virtue. I have speculated in the past the the Heir to Gryffindor is based on viture. That is, the next heir to the 'throne' will be the Gryffindor who is the bravest, most noble, and most deserving of the honor. So who decides and how? Well, I speculate that Fawkes decides. When the current Heir by Viture to Gryffindor, Dumbledore, secedes or dies, whom ever Fawkes pick as his new master becomes the 'chosen one'; the new 'king' of Gryffindors. So Fawkes becomes the eternal thread, the 'lineage' by which the Gryffindor family tree grows. So, I suspect that by virtue of ...err... virtue, by the quality of character, and choices made, Harry will become the Heir of Gryffindor. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gandharvika at hotmail.com Tue May 20 20:08:22 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:08:22 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Mirror of Erised Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58301 Mirror of Erised (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Tell Me What You See_ by the Beatles) >From their _Help_ album. Midi is here: http://hot.mididb.com/beatles/Help.php Dedicated to CMC...I got your list. Harry: Hid inside an empty room, was trying to hide In the corner, through the gloom, saw what was inside Looked into the mirror, and looking back at me It couldn't be clearer, was my family Mom and Dad and others who I have never known Relatives standing there too, the magic mirror showed Looked into the mirror, and I saw this scene It couldn't be clearer, was my family Mirror of Erised Memorized by what I saw I was almost blind Didn't notice Dumbledore was standing right behind Dumbledore he told me what the mirror shows It's not reality, it's but a shadow Mirror of Erised Shows us our desires, it seems, but it's addictive It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live Looked into the mirror, don't have to inquire It couldn't be clearer, my deepest desire Hm hm hm hm hm -Gail B...who finds that even on the busiest days that there's *always* time to write a filk! _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From meboriqua at aol.com Tue May 20 20:34:55 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:34:55 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies OOP ref. at end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innermurk" wrote: > That makes me wonder if Rita heard Trelawny's prediction. She sure didn't do anything about it if she did, or at least we didn't hear about it.> What are you talking about? Rita most definitely was the insect outside Harry's classroom that day because she wrote an article not long after about Harry being "Disturbed and Dangerous". Rita was there when Harry fell asleep in Trelawney's class and woke up clutching his scar. You have to hand it to JKR for being such a master at subtle hints - who would've guessed? Trelawney's prediction came later, when Harry was taking his final. No sounds of insects were mentioned then. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************ From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 20:38:29 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (erisedstraeh2002) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:38:29 -0000 Subject: Lack of Hogsmeade Muggle Protection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58303 It has recently struck me how odd it is that Hogsmeade appears to have zero security against being spotted by Muggles, given the other Muggle protection devices we see employed elsewhere (tap the bricks with your wand to open the gateway to Diagon Alley; run through/lean against the King's Cross barrier to get onto Platform 9 and 3/4; the inability to apparate or disapparate into Hogwarts). It seems as if there's nothing to prevent a Muggle from wandering into the Three Broomsticks (where the Muggle might see not only witches and wizards, but also potentially goblins and ogres), or seeing the owl post office (thus revealing the wizarding postal method), or browsing at Gladrags Wizardwear, or looking at the wizarding equipment at Dervish and Banges. It just seems to me with all of the concern about wizards staying hidden from Muggles, Hogsmeade is a big security breach. ~Phyllis who is also wondering why Memory Charms aren't called Forgetfulness Charms From innermurk at catlover.com Tue May 20 20:54:55 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:54:55 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies OOP ref. at end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58304 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: I innermurk previously wrote: > > That makes me wonder if Rita heard Trelawny's prediction. She sure > didn't do anything about it if she did, or at least we didn't hear > about it.> Jenny responded: > What are you talking about? Rita most definitely was the insect > outside Harry's classroom that day because she wrote an article not > long after about Harry being "Disturbed and Dangerous". Rita was > there when Harry fell asleep in Trelawney's class and woke up > clutching his scar. You have to hand it to JKR for being such a > master at subtle hints - who would've guessed? > > Trelawney's prediction came later, when Harry was taking his final. > No sounds of insects were mentioned then. > I innermurk reply: That all happened in the fourth book. The insect buzzing (the fly as Harry guesses) happens in the third book right before Trelawny gives her "real" prediction. I'm speculating she's been buzzing around longer than we know of. Hope that clears it up for you. Innermurk From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 20 21:07:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:07:52 -0000 Subject: OOP: Special Ed. Book Cover - Close Up Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58305 I saved the OOP special edition book cover that has been used as a reference in the "OOP: Where Harry Might Go in Book 5" thread. I doubled the size, increased the resolution, increased the contrast, sharpened the image, and sliced off the part the shows the book and the spine. If anyone would like to take a close look at it, you can find it at - http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/OOP-BookLg1.jpg Be FOREWARNED! This images is 1100 pixels WIDE X 3700 pixels TALL and is about 585,000 bytes. That's about 1 minute and 30 seconds to download assuming your modem data rate is a full 56K. DLS, Cable, ISDN, and other his speed connections will only take seconds to download. Points of interest- - Near the roof line, just below the edge of the roof and between the first and second roof window, you will see the script letters 'SS' that someone mentioned. - However, if you look between the second and third window just below the lower roof line, you will see what appears to be the word 'WAVY' written in the stone. Regardless of how you interpret it, there does seem to be a section of the front of the building near the roof line that has something written in it; the building name, family name, or my wild imagination, you be the judge. - Farther down on the right where the spine meets the face right above the broken window there appears to be a humanoid creature standing on the ledge. This could be a gargoyle facing forward, or another humanoid crouched and viewed from the side. My imperssion is that it is the crouched side view of an old bald man with glasses (only a maybe on the glasses). - Below the window and to the right on the spine, right near to top tips of the tree branches, appears to be another humaniod creature clinging to a tree branch (or downspout or something). This person appears younger and smaller than the other humaniod creature. - Near the base of the spine, appears to be a large entryway. Note that the far vertical edge of the entryway appears to be a large arm and hand reaching upward. If you look at the near edge of the entryway, what appear to be a hand on the other side could just be an area where the stone juts forward. Just thought you might like to take a closer look. If you can't access it, it's probably because my bandwidth was used up. Just thought I would pass it along. bboy_mn PS: other highly OT but fun stuff related to HP. Where in the World is Hogwarts? Color satellite maps of possible locations of Hogwarts. http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm Also, location of Peebles relative to Rail Lines. Location Romanian Dragon Research Center. Color satellite maps of possible locations of Dragon Center. http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/RomDragCenter.html Make your own Wizard's Wand Cheap. http://www.homestead.com/bluemoonmarket/files/wiz/wizwand.htm Hope the mods don't shoot me for this. From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Tue May 20 21:20:01 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:20:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Special Ed. Book Cover - Close Up References: Message-ID: <001c01c31f15$9569a990$884f243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58306 Steve (bbboy) wrote: I saved the OOP special edition book cover that has been used as a reference in the "OOP: Where Harry Might Go in Book 5" thread. I doubled the size, increased the resolution, increased the contrast, sharpened the image, and sliced off the part the shows the book and the spine. If anyone would like to take a close look at it, you can find it at - http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/OOP-BookLg1.jpg Me (Izaskun): Boy, oh boy, I really love you right now. Now, looking at the cover again (after I think a trizilion times) I noticed something I hadn't seen before. Can you see by the broken window a figure? It seems a lion's head carved on the stone, and I think it has something in its mouth, could be a snake, but I'm not so sure. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From byujava at yahoo.com Tue May 20 21:27:51 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lack of Hogsmeade Muggle Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520212751.99004.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58307 --- erisedstraeh2002 wrote: > It has recently struck me how odd it is that > Hogsmeade appears to > have zero security against being spotted by Muggles, > given the other > Muggle protection devices we see employed elsewhere > (tap the bricks > with your wand to open the gateway to Diagon Alley; > run through/lean > against the King's Cross barrier to get onto > Platform 9 and 3/4; the > inability to apparate or disapparate into Hogwarts). > > It seems as if there's nothing to prevent a Muggle > from wandering > into the Three Broomsticks (where the Muggle might > see not only > witches and wizards, but also potentially goblins > and ogres), or > seeing the owl post office (thus revealing the > wizarding postal > method), or browsing at Gladrags Wizardwear, or > looking at the > wizarding equipment at Dervish and Banges. > > It just seems to me with all of the concern about > wizards staying > hidden from Muggles, Hogsmeade is a big security > breach. > > ~Phyllis > who is also wondering why Memory Charms aren't > called Forgetfulness > Charms Hermione explains this all (actually she's referring to Hogwarts, but the same thing applies to Hogsmead) in GoF where she says something about Muggles that were close to finding Hogwarts would suddenly find they had to go take care of something else. I forgot exactly how it went, as I don't have the book in front of me. I imagine Hogsmeade has similar protection. Kirsten (happy to have been taken off new member moderated status!!!) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue May 20 21:34:08 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:34:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Special Ed. Book Cover - Close Up Message-ID: <2d.2ede72fb.2bfbf950@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58308 In a message dated 5/20/2003 4:09:57 PM Central Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > Points of interest- > > Farther down on the right where the spine meets the face right above > the broken window there appears to be a humanoid creature standing on > the ledge. This could be a gargoyle facing forward, or another > humanoid crouched and viewed from the side. My imperssion is that it > is the crouched side view of an old bald man with glasses (only a > maybe on the glasses). It looks like an house elf to my daughter and I (Dobby to be specific). Maybe Winky but the nose looks more like dobby's and not Winky's squashed tomato like nose [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From probono at rapidnet.com Tue May 20 21:37:43 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:37:43 -0000 Subject: OOP: Book Cover - Close Up/ 'special fan' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58309 "Steve" wrote: > I saved the OOP special edition book cover that has been used as a > reference in the "OOP: Where Harry Might Go in Book 5" thread. > > I doubled the size, increased the resolution, increased the contrast, > sharpened the image, and sliced off the part the shows the book and > the spine. Hey, thanks alot Steve, I've been trying to pry over the details of that. This helps. :D I did notice that the top-most window (on the spine) looked as though it contains a humanoid-shaped shadow. Reminded me of the shadow on the outside cover, behind Harry. But perhaps that was already mentioned. Also, on an entirely different note, I was wondering about the 'special fan' quote. It's been popping up again quite a bit lately and I remember discussion a few weeks ago on whether this truly was a real JKR quote or not? I missed the conclusion, can somebody fill me in (reply to me personally if you want). Darnit, I have money placed on who's gonna go, and this information is imperative! lol! Thanks -Tanya From MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET Tue May 20 21:15:57 2003 From: MKELLER at SUNLINK.NET (jksunflower2002) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:15:57 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <000c01c31ef5$b8d28110$4bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58310 >> > As for the two other men, well one of them is definitely Moody. But the > other looks too old to be Lupin, I'm thinking Mundungus Fletcher. > > > Lupin is in his mid thirties, but he looks older because of the life he's > had. His hair is prematurely gray. I do think this man is Lupin just by > looking in the eyes. They have the look of a careworn man, which would fit > Lupin to a T. > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova Lupin was also my first guess, or Fletcher. But then another name popped into my head--The Bloody Baron. In SS/PS he's described as having blank staring eyes and a gaunt face. Just a thought. Toad From innermurk at catlover.com Tue May 20 20:57:46 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:57:46 -0000 Subject: Lack of Hogsmeade Muggle Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erisedstraeh2002" wrote: > It has recently struck me how odd it is that Hogsmeade appears to > have zero security against being spotted by Muggles, given the other > Muggle protection devices we see employed elsewhere (tap the bricks > with your wand to open the gateway to Diagon Alley; run through/lean > against the King's Cross barrier to get onto Platform 9 and 3/4; the > inability to apparate or disapparate into Hogwarts). > > It seems as if there's nothing to prevent a Muggle from wandering > into the Three Broomsticks (where the Muggle might see not only > witches and wizards, but also potentially goblins and ogres), or > seeing the owl post office (thus revealing the wizarding postal > method), or browsing at Gladrags Wizardwear, or looking at the > wizarding equipment at Dervish and Banges. > > It just seems to me with all of the concern about wizards staying > hidden from Muggles, Hogsmeade is a big security breach. > We don't really know that it isn't secure because we've only seen HHR enter by two ways. 1. The secret passageway - this must be accessed via Hogwarts. I doubt the muggles could get there or find it if they did. 2. The road from Hogwarts - Again, muggles wouldn't be there to go down the road. I'm guessing it has a lot of the anti and muggle repellants around it since it's a totally wizarding villiage. They're just not between Hogwarts and Hogsmeade. Innermurk From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue May 20 21:42:30 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:42:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Book Cover - Close Up/ 'special fan' Message-ID: <188.19d74b07.2bfbfb46@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58312 In a message dated 5/20/2003 4:40:24 PM Central Standard Time, probono at rapidnet.com writes: > Also, on an entirely different note, I was wondering about > the 'special fan' quote. It's been popping up again quite a bit > lately and I remember discussion a few weeks ago on whether this > truly was a real JKR quote or not? I missed the conclusion, can > somebody fill me in (reply to me personally if you want). Darnit, I > have money placed on who's gonna go, and this information is > imperative! lol! > > Thanks > As I recall no one could find an actual quote from JKR and I think the conclusion was that it was journalistic liberty. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue May 20 21:26:25 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:26:25 -0500 Subject: Weird observation concerning OOP cover References: Message-ID: <000501c31f16$78a49760$a5cdaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58313 I was just playing in the special features of the CoS DVD for the first time. I am in Colin Creevey's Photo Hunt, digging through Snape's office, when something just jumped at me. Take the magnifying glass over by the window. Focus it towards the bottom of the left window, by the desk (?). There are some candles by the window. Looking in the bottom magnifying glass display, it reminded me greatly of the cover of OOP, minus Harry standing there with his wand. Ok, I'm sure this is talking apples and oranges, but there was a vague sort of resemblance. If nothing else, it made me wonder if Harry had ever been in Snape's office before, or if he might have a reason to go there in the fifth book (and perhaps get caught?). Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue May 20 23:51:17 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:51:17 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: <20030520034831.56797.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58314 Darrin wrote: > It is conceivable that the whole Heir business is limited to Salazar > Slytherin, who ... obviously has > an agenda that he needs someone to follow. > > To whit, he needs someone to open the damn Chamber. > > Now, we've gone under the assumption that Godric would also have his > Heir working against Salazar, but it's possible that there isn't one, > and Harry is just an honorable, good person who happens to be in > Gryffindor. And Becky replied: > ME: Two words about that though. Godric's Hollow. THAT is where >James and Lily (and Harry lived!) ... I must assume it means >something. I think Harry is without a doubt the Gryffindor Heir. I >think that's why Lord Voldemort came after him in the first place. I >believe Harry was a more important target to Voldemort then even James >was. Godric Gryffindor is a very well-known historical figure in the wizarding world. It makes sense, then, that a village be named after him (possibly the village where he himself was raised). I agree that the this particular name will probably hold some significance in later books. However, I don't think the Potters' residence there is proof in the least of their relation to Gryffindor. After all, I'm sure there were other wizards living there; are we to assume they too must have some relation to Gryffindor? If your own town is named after a person who lived a few hundred years ago, are you related to him or her? Probably not. I have always hated the Heir of Gryffindor theory, for reasons that I've gone over before (namely, that it contradicts the character over blood message JKR emphasizes throughout the books). However, Darrin has hit upon another point that bothered me: why? Why would Harry being the Heir of Gryffindor be important? If Gryffindor had an anti-Slytherin-heir agenda, I think people would know of it, much like they knew about the Heir of Slytherin and the CoS, if only in rumours. We know Slytherin had a special inheritable talent (Parseltongue), but we haven't been told of any similar advantage Gryffindor's heirs might gain. Also, why would Voldemort want to kill the Heir of Gryffindor? His main purpose has always been to destroy all Muggles and Muggle-born wizards. There's the "Gryffindor's heir will be your downfall" prophecy theory, but that seems far too cliched. Voldemort has never once shown anti-Gryffindor sentiments: never insulted Harry for belonging to Gryffindor House, never gone on a rampage against non-Slytherin wizards in particular, and had no problem employing a Gryffindor as his spy. Also, why wait so long to go after the James Potter? Why wait until he had a child? Assuming the Heir of Gryffindor theory to be true, James would have been the big threat before Harry was born. It seems the most logical course of action for Voldemort would have been to kill James first, launch reign of terror and take over wizarding world second. -Corinth, who can't wait until OoP is here so she can stop dodging spoilers. :) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Wed May 21 00:03:23 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:03:23 -0000 Subject: Lack of Hogsmeade Muggle Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58315 Phyllis wrote: >>It has recently struck me how odd it is that Hogsmeade appears to >>have zero security against being spotted by Muggles, given the other >>Muggle protection devices we see employed elsewhere **snip, snip** >>It just seems to me with all of the concern about wizards staying >>hidden from Muggles, Hogsmeade is a big security breach. Then Innermuck pointed out: >...we've only seen HHR enter by two ways. >1. The secret passageway - this must be accessed via Hogwarts. I >doubt the muggles could get there or find it if they did. >2. The road from Hogwarts - Again, muggles wouldn't be there to go >down the road. > >I'm guessing it has a lot of the anti and muggle repellants around it >since it's a totally wizarding village. Gee. I never wondered about Hogsmeade's protection. I feel so ashamed. :) Hmmm, since Hogsmeade is the *only* wizard village in England, I would think that it is protected greatly just by proximity to Hogwarts. Hogwarts is the most secure place in WW. Kind of by association of that radiating security, it makes sense that Hogsmeade, the forest, and the lake would also be so "infested" with magic. Now. Do we only *know* of two entrances to Hogsmeade? The gate between it and Hogwarts and the whomping willow "secret" entrance have been given. Hmmm, did they dig the secret passage when Lupin came to the school as well as put the tree over it? Anyway...side wonder. So, those two entrances are well guarded, but there must be more. Wait. In fact there is. Remember is PoA with the dementors. They were at the gates to Hogsmeade. I am not sure if that meant the gates other than the gates between Hogsmeade and Hogwarts. Let me get the quote. Just a sec. Wait. That one is kind of hard to find. Let me quote GoF Ch 27, in that, Sirius can enter the city through the mountains. So the city is not walled. umm....hold that. It could be. It says (pg 510 Amer. Hb) "Be at stile at the end of the road..." A stile is a series of steps over a fence or wall. So there *is* something at the outskirts. Hmm, so they, Sirius and the trio, walked from the house on the outskirts of the city, over the stile, then onto the wild countryside and into the mountains without telling us they went through a gate, opened a door, or did a special magic spell to open a wall. They just walked over the stile. Now whether that was over a wall or fence, it seems it is not very big. I imagined a waist high fence. So I think that is fair proof that one can enter Hogsmeade normally without anything solid blocking them. Maybe if a muggle went to crawl over the stile, they always feel off or a big wind blew they off. But I am inventing spells and enchantments, so that is not fair play here. So what is so protecting about it? Maybe its location. It is in the mountains up in north England. Hard to get to. The Scottish have always been busy fighting England, so maybe they did not notice. Ok, ok, maybe they did, but the Scottish liked folklore and mystical things then. But we are talking now of days, I know. Hmm, only theory I can think of being plausible without creating new spells is the reflected glow from the protection of Hogwarts. We do not know the radius of the charm on it, but I figure it extended beyond the walls of Hogwarts and into the grounds. If that is true, the lake and forest would definitely be included. Seems it would be easy, again *seems*, just to extend the little enchantment to encompass the forest and lake just to let it too be protected for the magical beasts and creatures. Nice to give the centaurs and merpeople safe haven. And given that Hogsmeade is *right* next door too, I will say that what grace is protecting Hogwarts extends to it as well. But of course, I have no proof. Just assumptions. But we do know, it has a stile there at that entrance. A traditional muggle way to protect at least the rabbits from getting at your vegetable garden. And we all know, muggles are next to rabbits in the WW viewpoint or their superiority. Maybe that is their (the WW) downfall in the end. But I am shifting subjects now, so I will stop. Melody who still wants to see Matrix Reloaded again even though she has seen it three times already. I think I am intrigued by it a bit too much. :) From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue May 20 20:51:38 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:51:38 -0000 Subject: Snape and Faculty (WAS Re:The Trelawney Prediction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58316 > Pip!Squeak: > Possible - but the easiest route is Snape. He's the one person we > currently know of who would have good reason to tell *both* > Voldemort and Dumbledore. If Snape is a witness, no extra spies are > required. If Dumbledore is the sole witness, we have to explain how > Voldemort found out, and why Snape doesn't share McGonagall's > obvious contempt for Trelawney. > > Pip!Squeak Who says he doesn't? While Snape makes snipy comments about the students, I don't recall him ever commenting on a specific teacher. Even Lockhart never got a vocal comment until Ginny was taken, just evil looks. Also, the Kids don't give Snape the commentary openings that they give Minerva. Reporting that Trelawney had predicted Harrys death is bound to get a comment, no matter which teacher you tell. It might be interesting to know what Snape would have said. Renee From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue May 20 20:59:01 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:59:01 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies OOP ref. at end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innermurk" > wrote: > > > That makes me wonder if Rita heard Trelawny's prediction. She sure > didn't do anything about it if she did, or at least we didn't hear > about it.> > > What are you talking about? Rita most definitely was the insect > outside Harry's classroom that day because she wrote an article not > long after about Harry being "Disturbed and Dangerous". Rita was > there when Harry fell asleep in Trelawney's class and woke up > clutching his scar. You have to hand it to JKR for being such a > master at subtle hints - who would've guessed? > > Trelawney's prediction came later, when Harry was taking his final. > No sounds of insects were mentioned then. > > --jenny from ravenclaw ************************************ This could just be me, but I thought Trelawney made her "Return of the Dark Lord" prediction at the end of PoA - way before Rita Seeker was even introduced. Calimora (Posting obnoxious posts since 3 days ago) From Calimora at yahoo.com Tue May 20 20:40:33 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:40:33 -0000 Subject: OOP: DADA teacher and others In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58318 innermurk: > Here are some more what ifs... > If DD is gone who will the new headmaster be? > McGonagall is the obvious choice, but what if Moody came in. His > picture has to be there for a reason, and I can't see him > volunteering to teach again, but maybe to run the school, or be head > of security. > Me: Plot wise, i'm not sure DD can be removed from hogwarts at this time. There is a lot of enphasis on how DD is the only wizard Voldemort feared - infact i think someone (Hagrid?) once (SS/PS) says flat out that DD was the reason Voldie didn't attack Hogwarts. Even though Voldemort manages some covert ops in DD's turf, DD's pressence still adds a large messure of safty, even if that safty only exists in public oppinion. Removing DD right now is too much like nuking Washington before the president and hero have escaped. It would cause way too much Havoc, much of which probably wouldn't be survivable. Though I do wonder if Hogwarts couldn't loose a professor or two. Teachers are supposed to protect their students, and it seems odd that so much dark stuff should happen in without catching a Prof. in the crossfire. ~Calimora (moderately un-lurked) From madaxe at starspath.com Tue May 20 22:40:53 2003 From: madaxe at starspath.com (brassgryphon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:40:53 -0000 Subject: More Dumbledore mysteries... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58319 Okay, firstly, a prediction. Dumbledore, who probably has some Divinatory capabilities, spouts the Pity Doctrine about a guy who proceeds to stage a successful Cirith Ungol times 2. (I know JKR didn't read that stuff till after PoA, but the metaphor holds.) So expect Pettigrew to have something on the scale of Book VI, Chapter 3, and probably more sympathetic. Next: Why is Snape a teacher? I mean, just because he's trusted does not mean that he's a good teacher. It could be a smoke-screen, but Voldemort seems to see right through that one. Not only that, but it could be an elective. But no, it's a core class, everyone must suffer, and it's not even the one Snape wants. Well, maybe Dumbledore doesn't trust him that much, especially seeing how Lockhart was the "on'y man for the job, and I mean the on'y one" though Snape no doubt volunteered. But his being a teacher in the first place is a bit of a puzzle. Ideas? Brass Gryphon From hieya at hotmail.com Wed May 21 02:29:49 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 02:29:49 -0000 Subject: More Dumbledore mysteries... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58320 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brassgryphon" wrote: > Next: Why is Snape a teacher? I mean, just because he's trusted does > not mean that he's a good teacher. Me: It's possible that Dumbledore keeps Snape at Hogwarts for his own protection. Snape has made a lot of DEs angry, if they know that he helped bring about Voldie's downfall and by extension got them into trouble. Snape is not the only teacher whose teaching abilities must be questioned. I think Hagrid's a great person, but come on, he too is a terrible teacher. Dumbledore clearly has a unique way of hiring people It could be a smoke-screen, but > Voldemort seems to see right through that one. Not only that, but it > could be an elective. But no, it's a core class, everyone must > suffer, and it's not even the one Snape wants. It is just a rumor spread by students that Snape wants the Defense Against the Dark Arts job. What good would it do for him to teach students to defend themselves against dark wizards? As a Death Eater, he would be expected to teach them Dark Magic itself. Also, Snape seems quite happy teaching potions. He is brilliant at his subject, and I see no reason for him wanting to leave it. > Well, maybe Dumbledore doesn't trust him that much, > I think Dumbledore does trust him, if he allows Snape to be Head of Slytherin. Snape has the opportunity to mentor students who are more susceptible to being recruited as Death Eaters than kids from the other Houses. I suspect that the reason Dumbledore himself remained at Hogwarts instead of becoming Minister of Magic is because he wanted to ensure that Voldemort did not take over the school and make all the students become Death Eaters. If I recall correctly, most of the Death Eaters that we have heard of so far were fairly young when they joined Voldemort. They were young and susceptible to his promises (i.e. Snape, the Lestranges, Crouch Jr., Avery, Rosier, Wilkes) Basically, what I'm trying to say in my long-winded way is that Dumbledore's goal is to stop Voldemort from gaining power and supporters. He is not about to hire someone if he suspects that that teacher will turn Hogwarts into a Death Eater recruitment center. greatlit2003, who can't wait to learn more about Snape on June 21 From kellybroughton at yahoo.com Wed May 21 03:08:20 2003 From: kellybroughton at yahoo.com (kelly broughton) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Special Ed. Book Cover - Close Up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521030820.79108.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58321 --- Steve wrote: > > If anyone would like to take a close look at it, you can find it at - > http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/OOP-BookLg1.jpg > > Be FOREWARNED! > > Points of interest- > > - Near the roof line, just below the edge of the roof and between the > first and second roof window, you will see the script letters 'SS' > that someone mentioned. > > - However, if you look between the second and third window just below > the lower roof line, you will see what appears to be the word 'WAVY' > written in the stone. > > Regardless of how you interpret it, there does seem to be a section of > the front of the building near the roof line that has something > written in it; the building name, family name, or my wild imagination, > you be the judge. > > - Farther down on the right where the spine meets the face right above > the broken window there appears to be a humanoid creature standing on > the ledge. This could be a gargoyle facing forward, or another > humanoid crouched and viewed from the side. My imperssion is that it > is the crouched side view of an old bald man with glasses (only a > maybe on the glasses). > > - Below the window and to the right on the spine, right near to top > tips of the tree branches, appears to be another humaniod creature > clinging to a tree branch (or downspout or something). This person > appears younger and smaller than the other humaniod creature. > > - Near the base of the spine, appears to be a large entryway. Note > that the far vertical edge of the entryway appears to be a large arm > and hand reaching upward. If you look at the near edge of the > entryway, what appear to be a hand on the other side could just be an > area where the stone juts forward. On the spine, there appears to be somebody looking out of the top window. I see the two 'humanoid' (the first is the disgruntled house-elf, perhaps?), but there also seems to be a third figure IN the branches of the tree. I think the 'hand' above the doorway(?) is actually just a sculpted piece of the architecture that is sometimes used to decorate doorways. It looks to be to be two hands somewhat clasped together, as if in a manner similar to prayer. What is the source of the pool of light (if that is what it is) on the ground at the other side of the big tree? For some reason, it doesn't look like it's coming from the doorcrack. I don't see anything resembling lettering anywhere near the roof line. -kel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 21 03:07:09 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:07:09 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58322 Corinth, giving me a warm fuzzy by agreeing with me, said: > > Godric Gryffindor is a very well-known historical figure in the > wizarding world. It makes sense, then, that a village be named after > him (possibly the village where he himself was raised). I agree that > the this particular name will probably hold some significance in later > books. However, I don't think the Potters' residence there is proof > in the least of their relation to Gryffindor. After all, I'm sure > there were other wizards living there; are we to assume they too must > have some relation to Gryffindor? If your own town is named after a > person who lived a few hundred years ago, are you related to him or > her? Probably not. My town was named after former U.S. President Andrew Jackson. I'm not related to him. Excellent point, one I hadn't thought of. I mean, did Riddle grow up on Salazar Circle? Did the Heir of Hufflepuff -- I get the giggles just reading that phrase -- grow up in the Helga Heights Apartment complex? > I have always hated the Heir of Gryffindor theory, for reasons that > I've gone over before (namely, that it contradicts the character over > blood message JKR emphasizes throughout the books). However, Darrin > has hit upon another point that bothered me: why? Why would Harry > being the Heir of Gryffindor be important? If Gryffindor had an > anti-Slytherin-heir agenda, I think people would know of it, much like > they knew about the Heir of Slytherin and the CoS, if only in rumours. > We know Slytherin had a special inheritable talent (Parseltongue), > but we haven't been told of any similar advantage Gryffindor's heirs > might gain. I would love it if Harry isn't the Heir of anything and if it wasn't James' line that did much of anything except impregnate the Muggle-Born that was going to give birth to the wizard that defeats V-Mort. Lily is the Muggle-born, not James. She should, for irony's sake if nothing else, be the one most responsible for producing the one who slays V-Mort. > Also, why would Voldemort want to kill the Heir of Gryffindor? His > main purpose has always been to destroy all Muggles and Muggle-born > wizards. There's the "Gryffindor's heir will be your downfall" > prophecy theory, but that seems far too cliched. Welllll... if there IS an Heir of Gryffindor, it would seem to follow that he or she would want to follow in old Goddy's footsteps and oppose the Slyth's prejudice against Muggle-borns, which are exclusionary at best and genocidal at worst. Darrin -- Heir of Hufflepuff... heeheehheheeesnort From dpitzel at mindspring.com Wed May 21 03:29:02 2003 From: dpitzel at mindspring.com (evolkerding) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:29:02 -0000 Subject: OOP: Special Ed. Book Cover - Close Up/special fan2 In-Reply-To: <2d.2ede72fb.2bfbf950@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/20/2003 4:09:57 PM Central Standard Time, > bboy_mn at y... writes: > > > Points of interest- > > > > Farther down on the right where the spine meets the face right above > > the broken window there appears to be a humanoid creature standing on > > the ledge. This could be a gargoyle facing forward, or another > > humanoid crouched and viewed from the side. My imperssion is that it > > is the crouched side view of an old bald man with glasses (only a > > maybe on the glasses). > > It looks like an house elf to my daughter and I (Dobby to be specific). Maybe > Winky but the nose looks more like dobby's and not Winky's squashed tomato > like nose > > I thought the special fan might be Dobby. Maybe we'll get to see some more house elf magic. EV > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed May 21 03:47:11 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:47:11 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58324 I asked: > > Also, why would Voldemort want to kill the Heir of Gryffindor? His > > main purpose has always been to destroy all Muggles and Muggle-born > > wizards. There's the "Gryffindor's heir will be your downfall" > > prophecy theory, but that seems far too cliched. And Darrin replied: > Welllll... if there IS an Heir of Gryffindor, it would seem to follow that he or she > would want to follow in old Goddy's footsteps and oppose the Slyth's > prejudice against Muggle-borns, which are exclusionary at best and > genocidal at worst. Of course, but many witches and wizards oppose Slytherin's prejudice. Most hate Voldemort and all he stands for. But the question is, does the hypothetical Heir have any specific advantage in the fight against Voldemort that your everyday, genocide-opposing wizard doesn't? Something that would prompt such a drastic preemptive strike? Nothing has been mentioned thus far. I also commented something along the lines of: > Voldemort's main purpose has been to eliminate Muggles and >Muggle-born wizards... And someone mentioned offlist in a mail I accidently deleted before I could accurately quote him or her: > Longbottoms? Fawcetts? Boneses? The Longbottoms were tortured by his supporters, while Voldemort was in no condition to instruct them. The Death Eaters have their own motivations for their actions, not necessarily consistant with Voldemort's ideas. We know nothing about the Fawcetts and Boneses, other than that they were victims. That said, I never said Voldemort opposed killing purebloods. Voldemort killed pureblood wizards, but these wizards were standing in the way of his ultimate goal: to create a pureblood magic community. His ideal could never exist if there were these silly people clinging to Muggle sympathies. -Corinth From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 21 04:25:44 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 04:25:44 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58325 Corinth: > > Longbottoms? Fawcetts? Boneses? > > The Longbottoms were tortured by his supporters, while Voldemort was > in no condition to instruct them. The Death Eaters have their own > motivations for their actions, not necessarily consistant with > Voldemort's ideas. We know nothing about the Fawcetts and Boneses, > other than that they were victims. That said, I never said Voldemort opposed killing purebloods. Voldemort killed pureblood wizards, but these wizards were standing in the way of his ultimate goal: to create a pureblood magic community. His ideal could never exist if there were these silly people clinging to Muggle sympathies. > To further bolster what you're saying, Corinth, let us also remember that the Longbottoms were among the best Aurors in the Ministry. Pure revenge and/or survival instinct could have motivated the DEs taking them out. I seem to remember Neville talking about all his family being magic, but we don't know anything about the Fawcetts or Boneses and whether they are pureblood or not. I think Draco said it best when he talked about "Mudbloods and Muggle- Lovers" being the first and specifically mentioned the Weasleys, one of the oldest pureblood families going. Lest there is a desire to write off Draco as being a stupid kid, remember that he learned at the feet of Lucius, who was one of V- Mort's top guys. V-Mort would consider any pureblood who opposed him as being unworthy of the very blood in his or her veins. Darrin From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed May 21 04:37:05 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 04:37:05 -0000 Subject: OOP: Special Ed. Book Cover - Close Up In-Reply-To: <20030521030820.79108.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58326 > --- Steve wrote: > > If anyone would like to take a close look at it, you can find it at - > http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/OOP-BookLg1.jpg First, thanks to Steve for doing this. Secondly, I wonder if anyone else noticed that the window frame of the boarded-up window looks like the open mouth of a canine? I doubt if it means anything, but it is a cool detail. ~ Constance Vigilance, veering dangerously close to a one-liner From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 21 05:47:17 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 05:47:17 -0000 Subject: Lack of Hogsmeade Muggle Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" wrote: > ...edited bits of previous post... > > > Gee. I never wondered about Hogsmeade's protection. I feel so > ashamed. :) > > ...edited... > > So what is so protecting about it? Maybe its location. It is in the > mountains up in north England. Hard to get to. The Scottish have > always been busy fighting England, so maybe they did not notice. > > ...edited... > > Melody bboy_mn: Oooouuuwww! You just make a major faux pas. What you meant to say was that, 'it is in the mountains up in north BRITIAN'. Most people are in agreement that Hogwarts is in Scotland which is not in England. Sorry to be a nitpicker. Check the location on my maps - http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm (WOO-HOO! - another plug for my maps) Personally, I favor areas (1a) and (1b) with my first preference being (1a). [That will make sense when you see the maps] My point is that while I'm sure Hogsmeade has the basic anti-muggle spells, it's best protection is it's very remote and very rugged location with few rail lines and few roads. Given the rail lines that go near area (1a), I suspect the last section of the rail to Hogwarts/Hogsmeade is a magical (unseen and unknown by muggles) rail line. Most wizards travel to and from this location by magical means, so they aren't noticed by muggles, and without roads and rails, potential access by muggles is very limited. If Hogsmeade is just as unplotable as Hogwarts then I think it would be a very difficult place for muggles to find. Both my Satellite maps and geopolitical maps confirm that area (1a) [just southeast of Wester Ross, west of Lock Ness/Glen More, north of the A87 Hwy] is the largest inaccessable expanse of land in Scotland, so it gets my vote for the Hogwarts location. I do agree with others that a great deal of Hogwarts protection spills over onto Hogsmeade. Just a thought. bboy_mn From iluvgahan at yahoo.com Wed May 21 06:33:37 2003 From: iluvgahan at yahoo.com (iluvgahan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Name Origins/Lucius Message-ID: <20030521063337.56467.qmail@web13504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58328 The Prefix Luc- generally refers to "light" (Latin, Italian, Spanish, and I have seen a couple of others) and I always thought it was referring to the family's light complexion and almost white hair. Of course I could be wrong(it's been known to happen, lol) but just wanted to offer my thought on the topic. Sorry to take so long on this reply , I know the thread kinda died out..... ===== Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From deadlyvampirekat at aol.com Tue May 20 21:40:06 2003 From: deadlyvampirekat at aol.com (deadlyvampirekat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:40:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's Harry gonna do when he graduates? Message-ID: <128.2a6bb8ae.2bfbfab6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58329 I don't mean to be depressing, but what makes you think Harry's going to graduate, he might die or something before he quite reaches graduation or his job. sorry "Deadlyvampirekat" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From madaxe at starspath.com Tue May 20 22:44:30 2003 From: madaxe at starspath.com (brassgryphon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:44:30 -0000 Subject: OOP: Book Cover - Close Up/ 'special fan' In-Reply-To: <188.19d74b07.2bfbfb46@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58330 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/20/2003 4:40:24 PM Central Standard Time, > probono at r... writes: > > > Also, on an entirely different note, I was wondering about > > the 'special fan' quote. It's been popping up again quite a bit > > lately and I remember discussion a few weeks ago on whether this > > truly was a real JKR quote or not? I missed the conclusion, can > > somebody fill me in (reply to me personally if you want). Darnit, I > > have money placed on who's gonna go, and this information is > > imperative! lol! > > > > Thanks > > > > As I recall no one could find an actual quote from JKR and I think the > conclusion was that it was journalistic liberty. > A pretty safe journalistic liberty, as it could be about anyone; the quote could be construed as sarcastic too. Even if it's bona fide, it's a sneaky little comment that is infinitely interpretable and rules no one out, other than people who have never met Harry. That wouldn't happen anyway. "Brassgryphon" From maisaura2 at aol.com Wed May 21 01:56:53 2003 From: maisaura2 at aol.com (maisaura2 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:56:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Surprises in OOP (Guardian article) Message-ID: <6d.1171d67b.2bfc36e5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58331 New member, first time poster, so edit away! In a message dated 5/19/03 12:53:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dfrankiswork at netscape.net writes: > A series of minor jolts, yes - we need enough reversals and > revelations to keep us turning the hundreds of pages. But we also > expect everything to work out according to the well-known pattern: > Hogwarts threatened, Harry to the rescue, Voldemort thwarted, > Slytherins worsted. Harry Potter has already become a reassuring > symbol of stability in a shaky world and the industry Rowling > started is now so vast that the onus on her is not to take a leap > into the dark, but to deliver another slice of the same lucrative > cake." > And maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com writes: > The same thing can be said about every detective novel there is. I do > expect things > to work out that way. The thing is, though, that we have three books > to go, and I don't see how anyone can be sure that Voldemort will be > twarted in OOP. I have two responses to the Guardian. First, the statement about JKR not taking a leap into the dark is rather superficial. The books may have been taking successive slices from the same lucrative cake, but that cake has become a great deal darker. The Dementors, especially given the memories they trigger in Harry, are among the scariest things to grace "junior" fiction. Chapters 32 -34 of GOF are terrifying, and gruesome. Goodness, a student, a nice, good, kind young man -- a Hufflepuff -- is cut down as a "spare" simply because he got in the way. Extending Guardian's cake metaphor much too far, this isn't exactly spun sugar and meringue, but dense, dark, and bitter. Coming to my second point, and expanding upon what maria_kirilenko wrote, yes, to an extent there is a formula at work. Do any of us really believe that HRH will die? Well, no, probably not. But, will they and any other character survive **unchanged**? Most definitely not. It is the journey and the change wherein the story lies -- how evil is defeated, why, and who is hopelessly corrupted along the way. A fundamental message of Lord of the Rings and many other works is that yes, the world is saved, but only at great personal cost to the protagonists. They may not suffer a physical death, but they do suffer terrible spiritual deaths and loss, over and over. They may save the world, but not for themselves. T. The Good Mother Lizard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Erthena at aol.com Wed May 21 04:07:34 2003 From: Erthena at aol.com (werebearloony) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 04:07:34 -0000 Subject: Filk: Voldemort's Isle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58332 This is my first Filk here and it had to be this song, my favorite for filks. It goes to the tune of The Gilligan's Island Theme. Find at: http://home.mn.rr.com/classictv/Gilligan'sThemeSong.html Voldemort's Isle Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale A tale of You-know-who That started many years ago Here at Hogwarts School This child was Tom Riddle's son His mother slytherin He was put in his mother's house As Hogwarts he did begin, As Hogwarts he did begin He disappeared and got dark arts And became Voldemort He did whatever he had to do To keep his life from being lost, to keep his life from being lost He gathered followers who were known as the evil Death eaters Like Lucius, and Wormy too Barty Crouch Jr. and McNair Avery and Nott They like to do evil things With Lord Voldemort 30 min. later after some fun with the death eaters and voldie doing what they do (trying to kill Harry) and at the end of which Harry is still alive So this is the tale of our death eaters They're really, really bad They'll try to do what voldie says Even if it make us sad Harry they will try to kill But you know they can't They don't even have the skill A child to enchant With wands, and curses, that are wrong They cannot kill that kid That's why Harry is still alive It's not anything Harry did So join us here each week my friend, You'll laugh until you snort At all the stupid death eaters With Lord Voldemort From glcherry at bellsouth.net Wed May 21 05:17:26 2003 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 05:17:26 -0000 Subject: What will Harry do Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58333 Still semi-new here, but I've had this on my mind for awhile, and will say it now. If it's been addressed, well, please remember the Big/ Huge file isn't called that for no reason, and keeping track of every post is almost impossible unless you have a second brain attached. Alot has been said about Trelawny's predictions, but what about the things Harry has 'seen'? In PS/SS he told Quirrel that in the Mirror of Erised he was 'shaking Dumbledore's hand, I've won the House Cup" a spur of the moment 'lie', but Gryffindor did indeed win. In POA he told Trelawny during his Divination Final that he saw Buckbeak, alive ,(I'm paraphrasing now because my 63 year old Dad has the book), with his head. He made it up, but it was true. I believe that Harry has the potential to be a, as MM calls them a "true Seer". Rare, yes, but not unheard of. If this has been addressed umpteen times, then please forgive me, but had to finally get it out of my head before it drove me nutters! Lorrie From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Wed May 21 06:38:56 2003 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 06:38:56 -0000 Subject: JKR's writing vs story, maybe a little OOP (but nothing factual) In-Reply-To: <004301c31ac6$02e33f80$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58334 I can tell you what really striked me as incredibly good in JKR wrinting style especially easily because I was skeptic about the Harry Potter phenomena before someone forced a copy in my hands. I was greatly impressed by the ability she has to deliver powerful psychological message through magical metaphors. For instance, I believe Dobby is a vivid portray of a disturbed or abused child. He is self-punishing, tries to relate to others in a clumsy way, dressed with horrible clothes, his face looks like the face of a child in pain, he is certainly abused and finally freed when he receives a present. MWPP turned animagi on their fifth year, this is to say when they turned sixteen, a great way to symbolise puberty. The moving stairs of Hogwarts too are a good idea, in fact I swear I had the impression that the stairs of my Junior High School were moving when I was in first year. I could go on and on, practically every significant memory I have of that period of my life found an echo in HP. When I reread the whole series, I also had the impression that each book had a specific psychological meaning. The first is about the fear of being not up to, the second could be about defiance (as suddenly Harry is seen as a danger), PoA is about overreacting as was pointed out by Pippin and in my opinion GoF is about the danger of getting too involved in something, to be obsessed (the Quidditch champions are obsessed with winning ant turn brutal, Moody is obsessed with fighting dark wizards, Bagman is obsessed with gambling, Barty Crouch is obsessed with Voldemort, Percy with his boss...) It has be pointed out that Harry has not yet failed. I think that this could very well be the theme of OOP. Not only Harry but all the good character will in my opinion experience failure : Ron could turn out to be a poor Quidditch player, Dumbledore will make a mistake...Harry's failure will probably be related to the main plot, I think he will fail to protect someone who will die. As for Hermione, I think she will remain the brightest student but could very possibly fail due to SPEW. After all, it seems that for the time being House elves are rather suspicious to SPEW, so Hermione could temporarily be the cause of a worsening of the relations between House elves and wizards. Forgive me for my poor english, as it is not my native language June 21st rules. Olivier From lumos28 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 07:07:45 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (Anita Sathe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: JKR and the Indian connection- a dose of Hindu mythology for you all Message-ID: <20030521070745.38143.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58335 Hi all, I have always found it quite interesting that there seem to be no foreign students at Hogwarts other than the Indian Patil sisters, apart from Seamus, who seems to be Irish - correct me if I'm wrong. Also what about Justin Finch-Fletchley? Where does he come from? Beauxbaton and Durmstrang are schools in different countries, so that's okay. I am talking about students from Hogwarts only. The names she has picked for these two girls are quite interesting. I'm sure you all must have read about these origins but here's some more interesting info. * Parvati: According to Hindu mythology, there are 3 main forces/Gods. Brahma: the Creator, Vishnu, the Protector and Mahesh/Shiva/Shankar: the Destroyer. These are the forces that keep the balance in the universe. Parvati, as a young woman, underwent very rigourous penance and starvation to win Shiva's heart, who eventually married her. The two are said to live in the Himalayan mountains and are parents to the elephant-headed god Ganesha. If you've read David Colbert's 'The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter', on pages 145-146, he explains where the word 'Nagini' comes from. It's interesting to note that Shiva, the destroyer and Parvati's husband, always has a snake wrapped around his neck, a cobra to be precise! And thats exactly what a 'naga' is, the male cobra. 'Nagini' is the female. However, as opposed to snakes being Salazar Slytherin's symbol and connected to evil in the WW, they are part of many fascinating stories in Hindu mythology and are worshipped too. Stories of evil snakes are rare. As Colbert explains, just like the Basilisk's enemy is the rooster, eagles are enemies of the snake and the King of Eagles, Garuda that he mentions, is the vehicle of Vishnu, the protector God. The Ravenclaw symbol is the Eagle (Padma's house). Colbert has very smartly pointed out this too: Voldemort seeked immortality and snakes are a big part of this, as he needs Nagini's milk to survive (GoF). Snakes and the Elixir of Life, known as 'Amrita' also play a big role in Hindu mytholgy. According to myth, the Devas (Gods) and the Asuras (demons) churned the 'Milky Ocean' with the help of the king of snakes, 'Vasuki'. As the ocean was being churned a lot of articles came out, one of which was a deadly poison that started killing beings on Earth. This poison was swallowed by Shiva, the Destroyer who's colour since turned blue. But I digress.. * Padma: This is Sanskrit for 'lotus', another character named after a flower. A huge lotus is what Brahma, the Creator rests on. * Patil: Now, India is a land of so many cultural and ethnic diversities, it is actually overwhelming. A terrific amount of different communities reside in this country, one of which is the Gujrathi community, from the state of Gujrath. A popular last name found in this community is 'Patel'. These people are primarily businessmen by profession and very good ones too. They also form a large part of the country's immigrants and it's become quite common to find them in the US and UK. I won't be surprised if any of you know more than one Patel. So if JKR had chosen the twins to be 'Patel' s and not Patils I wouldn't be surprised. Now, Patil is a surname found commonly in the 'Marathi' community, from the state of Maharashtra, that's where I come from, many of my friends are Patils! It's interesting to note that Patils have belonged to one of old families esp. in rural India. They are administrative heads of villages and quite powerful and influential people, though only the rural Patils. So they'd be the Weasley/Malfoy equivalent in Muggle-India. Because of this, I wonder if the Patil sisters too come from an old wizarding family and may play a larger role in the future. I mean, of all the Indian last names- wonder why she picked Patil? Now thats a big mail..hope you found the myths interesting enough to read through the whole thing. Its amazing how much research JKR puts in these books.. -Anita From lumos28 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 07:15:21 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (Anita Sathe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP Message-ID: <20030521071521.63152.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58336 There seem to plenty of guesses about this person here...I don't think its Neville, the face doesn't seem to be round at all. How about Colin Creevey? Is he the 'fan ' JKR was talking about? Maybe that's why he's on the cover. And if the 'fan' is on the cover, I really really really hope its not Ron. I won't be able to take it! My money is on the new DADA teacher, thought movie contamination might lead us to think spiky hair = Madam Hooch. -Anita From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 10:29:42 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:29:42 -0000 Subject: JKR and the Indian connection- a dose of Hindu mythology for you all In-Reply-To: <20030521070745.38143.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Anita Sathe wrote: > Hi all, > > I have always found it quite interesting that there seem to be no foreign students at Hogwarts other than the Indian Patil sisters, apart from Seamus, who seems to be Irish - correct me if I'm wrong. > > -Anita Hi Anita I was fascinated by your references to Hindu mythology. JKR has certainly drawn on a number of literary and mythology sources and i love the way she adds her unique twist to it. For example: I grew up reading fairy tales that featured flying carpets but this was the first someone mentioned 'exporting them to Britain as a family vehicle' As for foreigners at Hogwarts, I presume you mean British citizens of foreign descent, as i understand the Patil sisters to be? Well there is Cho Chang, i suppose she is of Chinese descent. Cheers Shaggy From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Wed May 21 13:11:52 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:11:52 -0000 Subject: What will Harry do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58338 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stardancerofas" wrote: > Alot has been said about Trelawny's predictions, but what about the > things Harry has 'seen'? In PS/SS he told Quirrel that in the Mirror > of Erised he was 'shaking Dumbledore's hand, I've won the House > Cup" a spur of the moment 'lie', but Gryffindor did indeed win. > > In POA he told Trelawny during his Divination Final that he saw > Buckbeak, alive ,(I'm paraphrasing now because my 63 year old Dad > has the book), with his head. He made it up, but it was true. > > I believe that Harry has the potential to be a, as MM calls them a > "true Seer". Rare, yes, but not unheard of. Hi Lorrie, I'd like to welcome you. I read your post on OT chat about the casting of Moody. You may have read my reply and well, you have taken the words right out of my mouth, again. : P I was reading the Trelawney prediction in POA just yesterday, looking for the fly, and I noticed the exact same phenomenon you mentioned here. lol It was a passing thought I didnt give much to, because I went straight back to studying for my finals. Anyway, now you mention it, yes. I do think Harry has coincedently guessed the story a bit much, hasn't he. Now I am thinking about it do you suppose it has something to do with him being untruthful. Like a pinocchios nose when he tells a lie the lie manifests before him. Maybe he should be watching out how he uses a power like that. Can anyone else think of a lie that Harry told that was made manifest further into the story? Valky From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 13:38:20 2003 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (Anna Hemmant) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:38:20 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58339 And Becky replied: > Godric's Hollow. THAT is where > >James and Lily (and Harry lived!) ... I must assume it means > >something. I think Harry is without a doubt the Gryffindor Heir. I > >think that's why Lord Voldemort came after him in the first place. I > >believe Harry was a more important target to Voldemort then even > James >was. > Corinth: > Godric Gryffindor is a very well-known historical figure in the > wizarding world. It makes sense, then, that a village be named after > him (possibly the village where he himself was raised). I agree that > the this particular name will probably hold some significance in later > books. However, I don't think the Potters' residence there is proof > in the least of their relation to Gryffindor. After all, I'm sure > there were other wizards living there; are we to assume they too must > have some relation to Gryffindor? If your own town is named after a > person who lived a few hundred years ago, are you related to him or > her? Probably not. > Finally me: I'm sorry for the very drastic snipping by the way, I don't have a lot of time. I don't have any of the books on me (I'm in the computer block at uni), but I don't think that Godric's Hollow is specifically mentioned as a town or a villiage. In fact, I'd always thought of it as a house name, and I'm as sure as I can be without checking that the reason that I get this impression is because we hear it in the same kind of context as 'the burrow' is used. For people who are widely dispersed, perhaps the use of the house name is more effective than the villiage name between friends? Am I making any sense? Probably not, I have brain fry from assignment writing. Anna From patricia at obscure.org Wed May 21 13:42:08 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and other matters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58340 On Tue, 20 May 2003, probonoprobono wrote: > from PoA: > "Harry had never met a vampire, but he had seen pictures of them in > his Defense Against the Dark Arts classes, and Black, with his waxy > white skin, looked just like one." This quote is the biggest reason I think Snape may not be a vampire. I have heard many people who make a big fuss about the fact that Snape is described as having "sallow" skin and take that as evidence that he is a vampire. But "sallow" does not mean "waxy white." "Sallow" is an unhealthy yellowish color. From the Mirriam-Webster Online dictionary: Main Entry: 2sallow Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English salowe, from Old English salu; akin to Old High German salo murky, Russian solovyi yellowish gray Date: before 12th century : of a grayish greenish yellow color I do think we will see a vampire eventually. We have heard too many references to them not to. But I'm not convinced Snape is it. That said, I'm not 100% convinced Snape is not it, either. I do still wonder why Lupin assigned that vampire essay. But it may just be a red herring. Or, Snape may be connected to vampires in some other way without being one himself. We do know vampires at least visit Hogsmeade on occassion since the candy store sells blood-flavored lollipops, but I would think the students would waste no time in spreading the news if anyone had ever seen Snape in there buying such things. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed May 21 13:54:30 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:54:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and o... Message-ID: <179.1aa0ede0.2bfcdf16@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58341 In a message dated 5/21/2003 8:43:35 AM Central Standard Time, orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com writes: > but I don't think that Godric's > Hollow is specifically mentioned as a town or a villiage. In fact, > I'd always thought of it as a house name, and I'm as sure as I can > be without checking that the reason that I get this impression is > because we hear it in the same kind of context as I need to get the book but my impression was that it was a place. A Hollow being: "a depressed or low part of a surface; especially : a small valley or basin" .. and I just can't see a house being named after a basin. The Burrow being a house's name makes more sense to me because I picture it as being full of little passages and hidey holes ect which is exactly what a burrow (well technically its a hole its ground that rabbits (gnomes??) and the like use for shelter .. but I digress) Also 'burrow' is a more 'cuddly" word. . Makes me think of burrowing under the covers where its warm and safe. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Wed May 21 13:16:34 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:16:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name Origins/Lucius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58342 Christina Says: > The Prefix Luc- generally refers to "light" (Latin, > Italian, Spanish, and I have seen a couple of others) and I > always thought it was referring to the family's light > complexion and almost white hair. Of course I could be > wrong(it's been known to happen, lol) but just wanted to > offer my thought on the topic. Sorry to take so long on > this reply , I know the thread kinda died out..... > Mycropht replies to Christina: I guess I missed the thread, too. Happens easily when you are gone all weekend.... I've understood the name Lucius to be sort of a play on the man's evil nature. Luc- does mean "light", but the most famous "Luc-" is the Light Bringer himself, Lucifer. Of course we all know what happened there. Mycropht ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 21 13:37:38 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:37:38 -0000 Subject: Name Origins/Lucius In-Reply-To: <20030521063337.56467.qmail@web13504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, iluvgahan wrote: > The Prefix Luc- generally refers to "light" (Latin, > Italian, Spanish, and I have seen a couple of others) and I > always thought it was referring to the family's light > complexion and almost white hair. Of course I could be > wrong(it's been known to happen, lol) but just wanted to > offer my thought on the topic. Sorry to take so long on > this reply , I know the thread kinda died out..... > > ===== > Christina "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." My own favourite Lucius hypothesis comes from the list of reigning popes during the 3rd century. Looks like this: St. Fabianus (236-250) St. Cornelius (251-253), died a martyr (Maybe Fudge is the one who is going to die?) St Lucius I (253-254) (source: the Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/) OK, maybe we shouldn't take this to detailed analysis (Lucius wasn't an uncommon name in ancient Rome) But I can't stop thinking what might happen when Cornelius Fudge has stopped being useful? Will he like his namesake be followed by a Lucius? My first post, BTW. Love this group. Alshain From meboriqua at aol.com Wed May 21 15:34:16 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:34:16 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies OOP ref. at end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58344 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innermurk" wrote: > That all happened in the fourth book. The insect buzzing (the fly as Harry guesses) happens in the third book right before Trelawny gives her "real" prediction. I'm speculating she's been buzzing around longer than we know of. > > Hope that clears it up for you.> What was really cleared up was my own stupidity at having posted something so thoroughly confusing and not at all proof read. I'll also throw in the fact that my own poor reading skills lead me to think you all were discussing GoF when you weren't. Sometimes I amaze even myself. Here's what I *really* wanted to communicated about Skeeter possibly buzzing around in PoA. If I am not mistaken (and I'm being really careful here, as I don't have the books at school and want to spare myself further embarrassment), in GoF, Skeeter in her animagus form is referred to once as a beetle (during the Yule Ball) and later as simply an insect. Never a fly. I think in GoF JKR was careful about dropping those hints. I also recall reading about JKR replacing a nosy Weasley cousin with the Rita Skeeter character, and that Skeeter was originally written into the scene in SS where Harry first meets witches and wizards in Diagon Alley. If she was written out of that scene and first appeared later in GoF, I'll say I don't think JKR had her spying on Harry earlier, else Rita would have published something about Harry's PoA experiences in GoF. JKR also gave us quite an introduction to Rita in GoF. The only other insect animagus I could imagine hanging around is Dumbledore, and it has been speculated that he is possibly a bumblebee, as that is what Dumbledore means. I'd like to think Dumbledore is no fly. :-) --jenny from ravenclaw, who couldn't sleep a wink last night after watching the Buffy series finale, satisfying as it was ******************************************************************* From innermurk at catlover.com Wed May 21 16:03:10 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:03:10 -0000 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > Linda: > > I've been following this thread since this morning and I IMO I > think that it's gone off onto a false tangent. The discussion > currantly surrounding the prediction is based on Trelaway's first > prediction being "true". That is not what is stated in canon. > Dumbledore states, "That brings her total of REAL predictions up to > two. I should offer her a pay raise..."(pg 426 US paperback) He and > Harry are talking about whether or not the prediction was real, not > whether or not it came true. In fact, at the time that they are > having the conversation, they don't know whether the entire second > prediction will come true either. They know that Wormtail escaped > and is probably going to return to LV but the outcome of that > sequence of events is by no means a foregone conclusion, especially > considering Wormtails general ineptitude. Both Dumbledore and Harry, > IMHO, are refering to her penchant for making cheap, theatrical > predictions. In other words "predictions" that are just for show and > not "real". When the predictions are looked at from this > perspective, almost any theory that would drive LV to kill any or > all of the Potters is pretty much a fair game theory, as long as it > doesn't contradict canon. > I innermurk reply: Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this. I had to get my book and check some quotations. :) If I understand your argument correctly, you say whether or not the prediction is true doesn't matter, because they know it's real. To prove this with cannon you state that DD himself says it raises Trelawny's real predictions up to two. And if that's the case, any theory is fair game. Before I get started, I just want everyone to understand that I wasn't trying to attack the theories. I even said that they were good theories as to what happened, or might happen. I just said that it couldn't have been Trelawny's first "real" prediction. Now, a more detailed reasoning as to why I think that: First, DD did say that brings her real predictions up to two, but you sacrifice some of the integrity of that line if you simply look a couple of sentances before it. POA US version PB pg 426 "(Harry speaking)'...Was it - was she making a real prediction?' Dumbledore looked mildly impressed. 'Do you know, Harry, I think she might have been,' he said thoughtfully. 'Who'd have thought it? That brings her total of real predictions up to two. I should offer her a pay raise...'" Ok, he said *might have been* *MIGHT* so even DD isn't sure that it is real. So why does he entertain the possibility? 1. The signs that he's seen are all pointing to the fact that V is up to something, and after all the time is ripe for him to make a comeback. So it's not entirely impossible. 2. Trelawny's usual style isn't used, so this style of her predicting must've been proved before. (PROVED to be true/real prediction) For him to know that her completely different style change is when her predictions are real....they *have* to have been proved to be real. (Real, true, the words can really interchange here) So, for her first prediction, Trelawny is somewhere with someone who overhears her. (I personally think it was McGonagall and that's why she can't stand T's theatrics all the time, because there is a very marked difference between her fun and her true or real predictions) They have the sense to write it down, or tell someone. Most of the threads have suggested the first prediction is about V's DEFEAT.....(not proved) Or Harry killing V (not proved) Or a variation of the above, or a thing that would happen in the FUTURE (not proved). However, if we talk about the prediction being the FALL of V (Already happened, thus proved) then it could be true. If her prediction was about V's fall, (I'm going on this assumption for the rest of the post, just for continuity's sake) they would really want it to happen. However, common sense would tend to believe this wishful thinking instead of true/real prediction. (In Trelawny's own words from POA ch16) "I would certainly not presume to predict anything quite as far- fetched as *that*!" (emphasis JKR's) Remember, V is at the height of his power. The good guys are falling left and right. Muggles are becoming aware of the wizarding world existence as they are used constantly for sport and torture. The Ministry can't even save or protect their own let alone the muggles. The aurors are in desperation given powers to kill first and ask questions later. Everyone is scared. Panic is prevelant. Would you believe T if she predicted the fall of V at this time? So, she is proved true/real by Harry's help and the fall of V. People now know that she has true/real Seer abilities. DD hires her for the job of Divination, and she enjoys making her "predictions" and scaring students with threats of death, etc... (It does make you wonder whether or not she even knows about her first "real" prediction since she doesn't believe her second one. Or does she now?) Anyways, we go along quite happily until POA. Now, DD is reading signs, and hoping against hope things aren't going to worsen. (Nothing serious has happened yet, because most of it happens in GOF, but I believe DD to be a prudent man, and Sirius tells us in GOF that he's reading the signs) All of a sudden Trelawny gives a prediction in her "true or real" style. He knows because Harry tells him about it. Quoting POA from same pg and version as above: "'Professor Dumbledore - yesterday, when I was having my Divination exam, Professor Trelawney went very - very strange.' 'Indeed?' said Dumbledore. 'Er - stranger than usual, you mean?' 'Yes...her voice went all deep and her eyes rolled and she said...'" He established that she in fact was using her "real" or proved style rather than her theatrical one. Then, he still used caution and said MIGHT. Hope that clears up my position on this. I know,....it's clear as mud :) Innermurk From innermurk at catlover.com Wed May 21 16:09:58 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:09:58 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies OOP ref. at end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > Here's what I *really* wanted to communicated about Skeeter possibly > buzzing around in PoA. If I am not mistaken (and I'm being really > careful here, as I don't have the books at school and want to spare > myself further embarrassment), in GoF, Skeeter in her animagus form > is referred to once as a beetle (during the Yule Ball) and later as > simply an insect. Never a fly. I think in GoF JKR was careful about > dropping those hints. > > I also recall reading about JKR replacing a nosy Weasley cousin with > the Rita Skeeter character, and that Skeeter was originally written > into the scene in SS where Harry first meets witches and wizards in > Diagon Alley. If she was written out of that scene and first > appeared later in GoF, I'll say I don't think JKR had her spying on > Harry earlier, else Rita would have published something about Harry's > PoA experiences in GoF. JKR also gave us quite an introduction to > Rita in GoF. > > The only other insect animagus I could imagine hanging around is > Dumbledore, and it has been speculated that he is possibly a > bumblebee, as that is what Dumbledore means. I'd like to think > Dumbledore is no fly. :-) > I innermurk reply: True, but Harry doesn't actually see the fly, though it could be implied that he does. POA US PB pg 322: "Harry was now the only person left to be tested. He settled himself on the floor with his back against the wall, listening to a fly buzzing in the sunny window, his mind across the grounds with Hagrid." Now, it could be just a fly. It could be an animagus that he didn't look at too closely. It could be nothing, but JKR's remembering her boring time before finals as she sat in a hallway or something. Or it could be a huge but obscure hint that JKR put in there for us. :) It's fun to wonder about anyway :) Innermurk From anujasathe at indiatimes.com Wed May 21 15:39:58 2003 From: anujasathe at indiatimes.com (anujasathe) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:09:58 +0530 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner Message-ID: <200305211455.UAA03798@WS0005.indiatimes.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58347 Hi! I'm new so sorry if this has been discussed before. In PoA, Hermione is getting to all her classes using a time turner.We know that she must not be seen .So how is she attending all those classes? We can safely assume that she's not taking private classes from the teachers through the time turner. [Page 181- Ron : "Ernie Mcmillan told me she's never missed a muggle studies class but half of them are at the same time as divination...."] You can't really argue that the actual rule is: You must not be seen by your own selves. [page 288 : Dumbledore in the hospital wing - "But remember this both of you.You must not be seen.....you know the law -... you- must- not -be -seen"] This certainly makes it clear that you can't be sen by anyone at all! In fact Harry and Hermione also avoid going into Hagrid's hut for fear of being seen.Surely if they had met only Hagrid, they could have made up a story about how they decided to come back to check how he was doing or something like that! Doesn't it seem impossible that Hermione could not be seen by anybody and yet interact with both students and teachers?How is she doing it? Beaky Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy The Best In BOOKS at http://www.bestsellers.indiatimes.com Bid for Air Tickets @ Re.1 on Air Sahara Flights. Just log on to http://airsahara.indiatimes.com and Bid Now ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Wed May 21 15:48:09 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:48:09 -0000 Subject: Parseltongue Rarity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58348 echaschneider wrote: > The text is, I believe, contradictory about the rarity of > Parselmouth. Riddle (or perhaps it's Dumbledore) tells Harry > explicitly that he and Riddle are the only two Parselmouths to have > ever attended Hogwarts. That would have been Riddle, and actually, he said that he and Harry were "probably" the first two to come to Hogwarts since Slytherin himself. Dumbledore, on the other hand, mentioned Parseltongue as one of various qualities Harry possesses that Salazar valued in his students, which suggests that Salazar may have at least thought finding another one not to be unreasonable. (Now, possibly he just would have LIKED to and never actually did, or didn't bring them to Hogwarts, but if Dumbledore's testimony is reliable here, he at least thought about it.) And then there's the Runespoor research and, as you have pointed out, the general knowledge of what Parseltongue and Parselmouths are -- including the obviously erroneous belief that the talent is the mark of a dark wizard. So I would say that if Riddle, who isn't what I'd call a terribly reliable individual anyway, is the only source for considering it to occur that rarely and isn't even *sure*, the contradiction isn't terribly serious. (On the other hand, one might wonder about relying on supposedly dark wizards for one's zoopsychological studies of Runespoors, but I suggest that this is a superstition not nearly so widely believed under normal circumstances -- as in, not in a schoolful of teenagers already on edge from mysterious attacks.) > People are free to take from it what they like regarding the > likelihood of a Parselmouth being able to control the Basilisk > against an attack at a random point in Hogwarts's history. For > me, it's suspect. > Well, strictly speaking, it would seem that an inability to control the creature or let it out until a thousand years later would make it remarkably inefficient as either a protector OR an eradicator. Now, if the basilisk were intelligent and cooperative enough to know what it was meant to do and do it, or could be long-term enchanted to do so, the only thing missing for either would be a trigger to let it out. Presumably the logical one, aside from Parseltongue, would be a like-minded person with knowledge of where the lever was or the presence of the intruders the basilisk was supposed to attack. Let's see. Muggle-descended students have, apparently, been around fairly consistently. That can't be it. In either case, it seems rather stupid to have mislaid the trigger. The attackers inside the castle the first year were brought there by authorized professors -- though I confess to an amusing mental image of the basilisk emerging from the plumbing and eating the troll for Hermione, if that hadn't bypassed any triggering mechanisms. ;) "persephone kore" From jodel at aol.com Wed May 21 16:19:46 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:19:46 EDT Subject: Lack of Hogsmeade Muggle Protection Message-ID: <84.115228bb.2bfd0122@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58349 << Do we only *know* of two entrances to Hogsmeade? >> Actually we "know" of several. The topside routes between castle and village, the road from Hogsmeade Station, presumably there are other connecting roads. And at least seven underground passages. Unfortunately Filch* also knows of four of these, which is why they are not used. Only the Honeydukes and Shrieking Shack routes are still understood to be "safe". And, there was a third passage behind the mirror on the fourth floor which was the Twin's prefered route until it caved in the winter that the Basilisk was making free of the school. At this point we do not know whether the Basilisk was relevant to the cave in. *This ought to be only a consideration for getting back to the castle. To get away, one would only need to check the map to determine that Filch was nowhere near the exit, even if he did know that the passage exists. -JOdel From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed May 21 16:20:43 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:20:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Anger Management Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58350 An ominous cloud of white smoke hung motionless in the still air, the ventilation system whirring pointlessly in the background. A clutch of theorists sat in straightback chairs facing the bar, balancing small plates of cheap snacks on their knees, their sharp eyes darting suspiciously at their neighbors. Outside, the wind screamed through the trees, a lone shutter banging helplessly against the side of the Royal Tavern. Most of the townspeople had fled long ago, their meager possessions piled haphazardly into the back of their aging cars, their abandoned homes fortified against looters. Only the most rugged and stubborn theorists remained holed up at the Tavern. Those who had vowed to ride out Hurricane Jo, no matter what. Those with valuable theories to protect. Those with nothing else to live for. Cindy rose slowly from her chair and lumbered to the make-shift plywood podium near the bar. She reached for a pitcher of tepid water and poured it into her glass, her hands shaking only slightly, and took a small sip. Placing her glass carefully on the tottering podium, she finally looked up at the crowd. "My name is Captain Cindy, and I -?" There was an awkward pause as the theorists waited expectantly. "Go on," George urged patiently. "I -?" Cindy faltered, her eyes cast downward, her weathered hands gripping the sides of the podium. "And I'm a Rage-aholic," she finished. "HELLO, CINDY!" boomed the theorists in unison. "*Excellent!*" George exclaimed, his blue eyes sparkling. "You're on the road to recovery, I can tell. Now . . . ." Relieved, George sat back in his own chair. "Tell the group why you've come to us today?" Cindy drew a quivering breath. "I am admitting that I am powerless over my unhealthy anger and rage." "And?" George prompted. "And . . . I am seeing that my unhealthy rage and anger have made my life somewhat unmanageable and miserable," Cindy said in a hollow, dead sort of voice. "Fabulous!" George exclaimed, as the other theorists nodded vigorously, their eyes shining. There was a smattering of applause from the back row. "But Cindy, with OoP coming in just 30 days, why are you trying to deal with your rage *now?*" George asked. "It's a little *late* for that, don't you think? I mean, you've been one heck of a wildcat in the Bay for a good long time -? you tried to *kill* poor Avery here ?- so why change now?" Avery suddenly fumbled for a cigarette, a trickle of sweat dribbling down his temple. Eileen patted him gently on the back and offered him a light. "Well, that's the problem, George," Cindy said. "I'm afraid that there will be something in OoP that will make me mad. *Really* mad. A spit-flying rage, in fact. And you know what I do when I'm in a spit-flying rage, don't you?" "Smash ketchup packets?" Dicentra volunteered cheerfully. "Flip over tables?" said Pippin, wincing slightly. "Contradict yourself?*" asked Derannimer saucily. "Well, yeah," Cindy said. "But I'm very concerned that something about OoP will enrage me and I will fling my brand new hardcover copy of OoP into a *roaring* fire in the Mother of All Hissy Fits." "Ooooh," George said slowly, rubbing his chin, his brow knitted. "I *do* see your problem. Yes . . . yes, this could be serious ?- those books are *expensive.* Besides, what are the chances that *you* could read a book and not find something outrageous, something that offends you deeply?" "I'm thinking about zero," Cindy said glumly. "OoP isn't even released yet, and already I'm getting ticked off." "Already?" echoed Gail, looking up from a FILK.. "Yeah. Just the other day, I read in the Wall Street Journal that JKR is *not* going to tour the U.S. to promote OoP. What is up with *that?* She takes three years to write the darn book, and then she can't be bothered to leave her mansion and hop in her private jet and chat for 10 minutes with Connie Chung?1 Is she taking the American market *for granted* or something? Is she writing us off? Does the woman not *care* about us!? Well, isn't that *SPECIAL*?!! She has 8.5 million pre-sold copies in the bank, and the first thing she starts doing is behaving like a total **GOLD BRICK?!** You know what I think? HUH?! I think all 7000 of us should all *cancel* our orders and *BOYCOTT* OoP!! Old JKR will feel *that* in the wallet, I guarantee it!! That's wha--" "Whoa there, cowboy!" George broke in, leaning forward in his chair. "Take it easy. I can certainly see why you're here." He turned to the theorists. "Can anyone think of a way for Cindy to deal with her feelings right now?" The theorists muttered softly to themselves, shaking their heads in confusion. The pause dragged on awkwardly until the room eventually became silent once more. "She should just get over it already?" offered Elkins brightly. The other Elkins next to her elbowed her sharply. "Well," George paused, "that's not bad, Elkins -- if that's your real name. I might phrase it a bit differently, though. I'd say that since you've already bought both the American and British copies of the book, Cindy, you shouldn't take JKR's refusal to visit the U.S. and talk you into it quite so personally." "Fine, then," Cindy conceded grudgingly. "Then how about this? I think JKR is going to *BOTCH* OoP! How about *that* for a reason to be angry?" A horrified gasp filled the room, and one theorist raced out the side door, her trembling hand covering her mouth. George flashed his brilliant smile and gestured for the theorists to remain seated. "Come on, Cindy. What the blue blazes are you playing at -- are you trying to start a panic? How on earth could JKR botch OoP? She's a story-telling *genius.* She took her time on the project. It can't happen." "Oh, yes it can!" Cindy insisted, leaning her elbows on the podium, which rocked dangerously under her considerable weight. "I think OoP will suffer from 'Low Hanging Fruit Syndrome'!" "Low Hanging Fruit Syndrome?" Amanda echoed blankly. "That's right," Cindy said. "OoP will be filled with wonderful opportunities for JKR to do the unexpected. But she won't. She'll go for the safe bet. The easy way out. *The Low Hanging Fruit.*" "But she's never done that before," objected Jo Serenadust from the far left part of the room. "That's true. But we have a situation where JKR seems to have set up the obvious, and I'm thinking she is just going to go for the obvious. Like MemoryCharm!Neville. It would be so much more daring and interesting for her to go with ReverseMemoryCharm!Neville or one of the other complex Neville theories. But she won't, will she? You know she won't. She'll give us MemoryCharmButtKicking!Neville, who is as *PREDICTABLE* as he can possibly be!" she shrieked. Cindy whipped around and launched her water glass with all of her might in the general direction of the fireplace. It exploded against the wall, spraying the mantel and pool table with razor- sharp shards. "And that," Cindy howled, "is what is going to make me *CRAZY!* Mrs. Figg will be Good! Real Moody will be Good! Hagrid will be Good to the bitter end! If JKR takes the Low Hanging Fruit, I will scream a long and deadly scream that will pierce the walls of her big ol' Scottish mansion! And then I will throw my book straight into George's fireplace! But it will do no good. Because OoP will already be *RUINED!*" "Look," said the other Elkins. "If JKR goes with MemoryCharm! Neville, as you and I both know she will, then you can just do what you did with ReverseMemoryCharm!Neville ?- just make up some canon." Cindy bolted from the podium and lunged for the other Elkins, only to have George jump quickly between them. "And we'll probably have to wait *four* years for the next book, so you'll have plenty of time," taunted the other Elkins, hovering just inches out of Cindy's reach. "Uh . . . unless someone has some suggestions for Cindy that might actually be helpful," George panted, "maybe we should take a break." He shoved Cindy hard in the direction of the fireplace and gave her a withering stare, daring her to move. "And *you!*" he hissed. "You stay right there! I'm going down to the basement to see if I have more glasses. *Plastic* ones this time!" ****************** Cindy From petalla at express56.com Wed May 21 16:51:49 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:51:49 -0000 Subject: Trelawney's prediction and flies OOP ref. at end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58351 > > I innermurk reply: > > True, but Harry doesn't actually see the fly, though it could be > implied that he does. > > POA US PB pg 322: > "Harry was now the only person left to be tested. He settled himself > on the floor with his back against the wall, listening to a fly > buzzing in the sunny window, his mind across the grounds with Hagrid." > > Now, it could be just a fly. > It could be an animagus that he didn't look at too closely. > It could be nothing, but JKR's remembering her boring time before > finals as she sat in a hallway or something. > Or it could be a huge but obscure hint that JKR put in there for > us. :) > > It's fun to wonder about anyway :) > > Innermurk Innermurk, Harry does not actually see the fly that time, but he does when he is practicing his summoning charms. Was this actually because his charm worked? Or was it because the "fly" wanted him to believe that it worked? It seems awfully suspicious that the "fly" has been around a few times. Yes, it could have been just a fly, or even completely different flies,but we know that JKR does not just write things. It could be one of her famous red herrings, but I chose not to believe this one could be. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From probono at rapidnet.com Wed May 21 16:54:39 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:54:39 -0000 Subject: Lack of Hogsmeade Muggle Protection In-Reply-To: <84.115228bb.2bfd0122@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58352 >jodel wrote: > And, there was a third passage behind the mirror on the fourth >floor which was the Twin's prefered route until it caved in the >winter that the Basilisk was making free of the school. At this >point we do not know whether the Basilisk was relevant to the cave >in. Or do we? "He [Lockhart] raised Ron's Spellotaped wand high over his head and yelled, "Obliviate!" The wand exploded with the force of a small bomb. Harry flung his arms over his head and ran, slipping over the coils of snake skin, out of the way of great chunks of tunnel ceiling that were thundering to the floor. Next moment, he was standing alone, gazing at a solid wall of broken rock." -CoS Well, ok so maybe the Basilisk wasn't directly responsible, but this is likely the passage that the twins mentioned in PoA. One branch must lead to Hogsmeade and another to the Chamber. There were also two different entries into that passage, through the mirror on the fourth floor (the way Fred and George always went), as well as through Myrtle's bathroom. But if Fred and George had used the passage up until it caved in, you'd think they might have noticed all the rat bones and the giant snake-skin? Pretty dangerous too, at the time. I reckon they were very lucky that year! -Tanya From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Wed May 21 17:00:17 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <1053460876.17028.96575.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030521170017.63371.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58353 About the faces in the promo pic for Scholastic OotP, Sara/Sarmi said: > As for the two other men, well one of them is definitely Moody. But > the other looks too old to be Lupin, I'm thinking Mundungus Fletcher. And Kelly Grosskreutz replied: > Lupin is in his mid thirties, but he looks older because of the life > he's > had. His hair is prematurely gray. I do think this man is Lupin > just by > looking in the eyes. They have the look of a careworn man, which > would fit Lupin to a T. Me (Morgan): My books are all Bloomsbury editions, and I've only seen small scans of the Scholastic cover illustrations in some websites. Only recently I've heard about the existence of illustrations inside the books, for each chapter. Without any models for comparison, I obviously can't tell who are the people in that pic. However, JKR's description of Lupin's face is not that of an old guy, or of one who looks older than his age. "Though he seemed quite young, his light-brown hair was flecked with grey." (PoA, ch5, p59, UK) "A ray of wintry sunlight fell across the classroom, illuminating Lupin's grey hairs and the lines on his young face." (PoA, ch10, p140, UK) Now, the face in the center of the triad (is that the one you're referring to, isn't it?) doesn't look like a young one to me. If that's the illustrator's view of JKR's description, I'd say she's not paying much attention to the text. BTW, can anyone point me to a website that has scans of the inner images of the first 4 Scholastic books? Thanks, Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From shokoono at gmx.de Wed May 21 13:45:46 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:45:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: DADA teacher and others References: Message-ID: <002601c31fa0$ae4b3a60$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58354 I don't think that Lupin would be a teacher at Hogwarts or even the headmaster for he himself quit in PoA giving as a reason that he as a werewolf woud be too dangerous towards the children (he says thins when Harry tried to persuade him to stay in Hogwarts, I couldn't quote the page for I usually use the german edition and most of the time the hearbook). Also:Fudge did not explicitly threaten DD to fire him. He only said he had to talk to him about the leading of Hogwarts in the future time. He also said in the same situation the DD had a lot of freedom to do waht e wanted. This could also mean that now Fudge would choose new teachers. Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sammi at macabreparlor.com Wed May 21 16:29:06 2003 From: sammi at macabreparlor.com (Samantha Mills) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:29:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Name Origins/Lucius Message-ID: <3EBA8DC50000C858@mta7.wss.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58355 In a message dated 5/20/2003 11:34:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, iluvgahan at yahoo.com writes: The Prefix Luc- generally refers to "light" (Latin, Italian, Spanish, and I have seen a couple of others) and I always thought it was referring to the family's light complexion and almost white hair. I've always figured the character got his name from the Lucius/Arthur stories of Camelot. The noble King the malevolent Emperor whose main care was for wealth. Etc. etc. You certainly can draw some vague similarities in the stories. ~Samantha --- Samantha Mills sammi at macabreparlor.com AIM:scaryscarlet The Macabre Parlor Beware the man of a single book. -Bertrand Russell From YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com Wed May 21 16:30:01 2003 From: YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com (vivamus42) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:30:01 -0000 Subject: Missing 24 Hours Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58356 I hope this is not a tired old subject; if so, I apologize. Has anyone noticed that there are 24 hours missing from the time Hagrid picked up Harry and the time he delivered him to the Dursleys'? What do you suppose happened during that time? My guess is that Dumbledore put together the means "by use of an ancient magic" to protect Harry at his relatives' home, and to set up Arabella Figg as Harry's Secret Keeper with the Fidelius charm. Other theories? Vivamus From YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com Wed May 21 16:37:31 2003 From: YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com (vivamus42) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:37:31 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny a Parselmouth? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58357 Canon: Riddle's memory told Harry that when he was taking over Ginny Weasley, he began to pour some of himself into her. Of all the interesting possibilities this raises, the most interesting to me is that Ginny may now be a parselmouth, since she had to speak Parseltongue in order to open the chamber. Wouldn't that be a fascinating twist? Ginny ends up saving Harry's life by calling off Nagini when Harry is gagged. That would, incidentally, reinforce the unbreakable magical bond between them in the other direction, as each would have saved the other's life. Of course, that could either strengthen the bond between them or cancel it out. What do you think? Vivamus From truebeliever60 at hotmail.com Wed May 21 16:45:31 2003 From: truebeliever60 at hotmail.com (truebeliever60) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:45:31 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58358 wrote: > > And the best thing: They are famous for being vampire-hunters! Due to > their intimate knowledge of vampires and their supernatural > abilities, they are very efficient in detecting and destroying their > vampiric families. > I really like the vampire hunter angle. Has anyone inquired into Snape's qualifications for the DADA job? Has he fought vampires before? We don't know, but I hope we find out. Most DADA profs have had some qualifications that include previous experience combating the Dark Arts. If Snape thinks he is qualified, then he must have had some experience doing something like that before. truebeliever From YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com Wed May 21 16:26:00 2003 From: YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com (vivamus42) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:26:00 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: <8.37b9e763.2bf8529e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58359 She does say, "I'll do anything, anything . . ." which is certainly suggestive. It's interesting, though, that this whole thread never addressed the question I thought I asked, so I must have asked it poorly. There has been discussion about V's motives in wanting to kill Harry first, and Lily's motives in not fighting, but the real puzzle to me is why V would *trust* that Lily would let him kill her baby. Even without her wand, a mother protecting her child could easily pick up a lamp and crush the skull of a large man. With her wand, one would expect that Lily could, in that circumstance, have made a Voldemort-shaped hole in the moon with a banishing charm -- or a *very* messy smear on the wall. Okay, so Lily had her reasons for letting V kill her, and I think the best suggested reason I've heard so far is that she knew she could protect Harry best by allowing herself to be killed on his behalf, for any of several different reasons. But that's not the puzzle, as there are lots of possible answers for JKR to use. The puzzle to me is why Voldemort would expect that Lily would, after he told her to stand aside, just stand there and let him kill her baby. She didn't do that, but why did he even have a glimmer of an expectation that she would? Okay, so he doesn't have any understanding of the real depth and potency of mother love. He still knows that she is Harry's last protector, and must have known (intellectually if not viscerally) that a mother protecting her child is a fierce adversary. He is no fool, and yet wanted to attack an infant while that infant's only protector stood beside him. That seems monumentally foolish to me. If we assume that he is supremely arrogant of victory, and doesn't think anything can stand in his way once Harry is dead, then *perhaps* one can make sense of it, but it's still a stretch. If Lily saved his life at some point, it might be why he would hesitate to kill her -- for fear of personal repercussions, as he certainly experienced when he tried to kill Harry. But it wouldn't stop Lily from killing *him* -- and he's not an idiot. The only thing I can think of that would make Lily so hesitant to kill Voldemort that Voldemort would count on that hesitation is that she owed HIM something. Unless he saved HER life at some point (which seems very unlikely,) the best explanation I can come up with is that there is a blood relationship between the two. Vivamus -----Original Message----- From: Silver Stag [mailto:prongs at marauders-map.net] Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:43 AM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Ray: > Just as children know that Elmer Fudd lusting after Bugs Bunny in a dress and lipstick is funny without knowing quite why, Lily's unspoken offer to Voldemort is for the adults who know "the secret". I agree that she could never make the offer explicitly in a children's book, but the fact us, she didn't. Likewise, she didn't say "kill me instead", she said, "take me instead". Actually, she does say "Kill me instead" I get this from Ch. 9. "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --" Silver Stag From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed May 21 17:13:33 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:13:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner In-Reply-To: <200305211455.UAA03798@WS0005.indiatimes.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anujasathe" wrote: > > You can't really argue that the actual rule is: You must not be > seen by your own selves. [page 288 : Dumbledore in the hospital wing > - "But remember this both of you.You must not be seen.....you know > the law -... you- must- not -be -seen"] This certainly makes it clear > that you can't be sen by anyone at all! And here's a more blatant example -- Sirius sees them when they bring Buckbeak to him. But maybe it doesn't count since he's an outlaw already... Ersatz Harry From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 17:17:25 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: DADA teacher and others In-Reply-To: <002601c31fa0$ae4b3a60$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> Message-ID: <20030521171725.34077.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58361 Finchen wrote: I don't think that Lupin would be a teacher at Hogwarts or even the headmaster for he himself quit in PoA giving as a reason that he as a werewolf woud be too dangerous towards the children (he says thins when Harry tried to persuade him to stay in Hogwarts, I couldn't quote the page for I usually use the german edition and most of the time the hearbook). Me: I missed the post where somebody suggested Lupin would return as a teacher. Your right of course. He will never be a professor again although I'm sure he has more important tasks to perform yet. Also:Fudge did not explicitly threaten DD to fire him. He only said he had to talk to him about the leading of Hogwarts in the future time. He also said in the same situation the DD had a lot of freedom to do waht e wanted. This could also mean that now Fudge would choose new teachers. Yours Finchen ME: Your also right about Fudge. That is one of those statements that a whole lot of people I believe are taking way out of context. First, I don't believe he would fire Dumbledore. He respects him too much. Although he MAY try or threaten to. Which leaves part two. I don't think he would be successful if he did try. He doesn't run a one-may dictatorship here. The school board probably has a lot more to say about it then he does. Dumbledore ain't going anywhere. Personally, I think that comment was really just a reaction trying to reassert a little control of the situation there where he was quite frankly feeling pretty darn panicky with everybody yelling at him that Voldemort is back and he not wanting to believe it. This WILL cause a conflict I believe in the next book as it's totally unresolved but it won't cost Dumbledore his job. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From madaxe at starspath.com Wed May 21 17:16:34 2003 From: madaxe at starspath.com (brassgryphon) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:16:34 -0000 Subject: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" wrote: > Has anyone noticed that there are 24 hours missing from the time Hagrid picked up Harry and the time he delivered him to the Dursleys'? > > What do you suppose happened during that time? > > My guess is that Dumbledore put together the means "by use of an ancient magic" to protect Harry at his relatives' home, and to set up Arabella Figg as Harry's Secret Keeper with the Fidelius charm. I completely agree, but it has to have been about at the moment they put Harry on the doorstep; otherwise Dumbledore would've been a little less firm about the whole thing in the first place. And yeah, it is an ancient theory. "brassgryphon" From emeleel at juno.com Wed May 21 17:25:24 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:25:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her time -turner Message-ID: <20030521.122525.-998811.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58363 On Wed, 21 May 2003 21:09:58 +0530 "anujasathe" writes: > In PoA, Hermione is getting to all her classes using a time > turner.We know that she > must not be seen .So how is she attending all those classes? (snip) > Doesn't it seem impossible that Hermione could not be seen by > anybody and yet interact with both students and teachers?How is she > doing it? I'm assuming that McGonagall or whoever worked out Hermoine's schedule made sure to put her "in the same time slot" classes at far points from each other. I'm not going to look up where each class was, but I'm sure that , for instance, Muggle Studies and Divination, are far enough apart physically that she could pop back and forth with no danger of seeing herself. Speaking of the Time Turner, as someone pointed out in a previous discussion, since you live through the same time periods twice, that means you age that much more. I wonder how many hours Hermoine added to her life that year, and um, did it affect her, uh, "development" any at all? Did she have to suffer though any extra "feminine problems" because she'd added to her life? (Hey, if folks can ask about how humans and giants "do it"..... LOL) Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From byujava at yahoo.com Wed May 21 17:34:03 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lack of Hogsmeade Muggle Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521173403.86763.qmail@web41311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58364 > >jodel wrote: > > > And, there was a third passage behind the mirror > on the fourth > >floor which was the Twin's prefered route until it > caved in the > >winter that the Basilisk was making free of the > school. At this > >point we do not know whether the Basilisk was > relevant to the cave > >in. probono wrote: > But if Fred and George had used the passage up until > it caved in, > you'd think they might have noticed all the rat > bones and the giant > snake-skin? Pretty dangerous too, at the time. I > reckon they were > very lucky that year! > It could be that this wasn't the tunnel they used, but the same cave in could have triggered a cave in for the other passage. Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Wed May 21 17:37:00 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:37:00 -0000 Subject: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58365 brassgryphon and vavamus42 wrote: > > Has anyone noticed that there are 24 hours missing from the time > Hagrid picked up Harry and the time he delivered him to the Dursleys'? > > > > What do you suppose happened during that time? > > > > My guess is that Dumbledore put together the means "by use of an > ancient magic" to protect Harry at his relatives' home, and to set up > Arabella Figg as Harry's Secret Keeper with the Fidelius charm. > > I completely agree, but it has to have been about at the moment they > put Harry on the doorstep; otherwise Dumbledore would've been a > little less firm about the whole thing in the first place. And yeah, > it is an ancient theory. now me (addictedtobass2003): I may be wrong, but I always assumed that to have a secret keeper, you needed to have a _secret_ as well as someone who wanted you to divulge it. Harry certainly has someone after him, but at the point when the fidelius charm was supposedly performed on him, Voldemort was less than a spirit, so was in no fit state to get Harry to spill the beans on anything. Also, at the age of one(?) would he have a secret to keep? IIRC, he doesn't remember anything that happened that night, other than the burst of green light, and sometimes a scream or a few words from his who he assumes to be his parents. addictedtobass2003 From byujava at yahoo.com Wed May 21 17:42:40 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: What will Harry do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521174240.6379.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58366 --- stardancerofas wrote: > Still semi-new here, but I've had this on my mind > for awhile, and will > say it now. If it's been addressed, well, please > remember the Big/ > Huge file isn't called that for no reason, and > keeping track of every > post is almost impossible unless you have a second > brain attached. > > Alot has been said about Trelawny's predictions, but > what about the > things Harry has 'seen'? In PS/SS he told Quirrel > that in the Mirror > of Erised he was 'shaking Dumbledore's hand, I've > won the House Cup" a > spur of the moment 'lie', but Gryffindor did indeed > win. > > In POA he told Trelawny during his Divination Final > that he saw > Buckbeak, alive ,(I'm paraphrasing now because my 63 > year old Dad has > the book), with his head. He made it up, but it was > true. > > I believe that Harry has the potential to be a, as > MM calls them a > "true Seer". Rare, yes, but not unheard of. > > If this has been addressed umpteen times, then > please forgive me, but > had to finally get it out of my head before it drove > me nutters! > > Lorrie I've wondered that as well. I didn't think of the Mirror episode, but I've thought a lot about the prediction of Buckbeak (and wondered what Trelawny thought when it became true). It seems like there was something else that made me think he might be more of a seer than we think, I believe in either PoA or GoF, but I'm not sure exactly what it is. Plus, I've always wondered why Harry would stay in an elective class when he and Ron are supposedly bad at it and dread it everyday (I don't know if it's too much work to have to switch to some other topic to focus on) Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 21 17:44:00 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:44:00 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner In-Reply-To: <20030521.122525.-998811.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58367 Melanie wrote: > > I'm assuming that McGonagall or whoever worked out Hermoine's schedule > made sure to put her "in the same time slot" classes at far points from > each other. I'm not going to look up where each class was, but I'm sure > that , for instance, Muggle Studies and Divination, are far enough apart > physically that she could pop back and forth with no danger of seeing > herself. That's probably true, although Ron and Ernie and probably others we don't see are comparing notes and wondering what the hell is up. That's still a danger. > Speaking of the Time Turner, as someone pointed out in a previous > discussion, since you live through the same time periods twice, that > means you age that much more. I wonder how many hours Hermoine added to > her life that year, and um, did it affect her, uh, "development" any at > all? Did she have to suffer though any extra "feminine problems" because > she'd added to her life? (Hey, if folks can ask about how humans and > giants "do it"..... LOL) > To quoth Hermione herself: "Tuh!" I mean, why do you think she was so barking moody in GoF? :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 21 18:27:32 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:27:32 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner In-Reply-To: <200305211455.UAA03798@WS0005.indiatimes.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58368 Beaky: > In PoA, Hermione is getting to all her classes using a time turner.We know that she must not be seen .< I think what Dumbledore meant was,"You must not be seen using the Time Turner for an unauthorized purpose." It was perfectly all right for Hermione to be seen by the other students in the classes she was doubling up on, though she wasn't supposed to tell them how she was doing it. McGonagall knew she had a time-turner, and I think the rest of the staff probably did too. If anyone had seen her helping Sirius or Buckbeak to escape, of course she'd have been in trouble anyway, but using the Time Turner for such a purpose would have made it much worse. Hermione didn't have permission to use the Time Turner for anything but classes, so using it after school hours for any reason would be a no-no. Harry, of course, didn't have permission to use the TT at all. Pippin From abigailnus at yahoo.com Wed May 21 18:27:49 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:27:49 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Grief Management In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58369 Abigail scanned the deserted TBAY street, wrapping her cloak around herself for warmth. In better days it would have been bustling with theorists ambling to and fro, stopping to gawk at various monuments or to good-naturedly lob rotten vegetables at those whose theories they found particularly objectionable. All gone. Shops had been boarded shut, their doors hung with hastily scrawled signs promising the owners' swift return when the storm had abated. Abigail wondered if there would be anything to come back to. She had no time for morbid thoughts, however. The dorms on Canon College had been shut down, the semester cancelled. She needed a place to stay for the night. Gazing out at the Bay, Abigail considered returning to her berth on the Imperius!Arthur trimaran. It was a risky move, venturing aboarding a ship, even one supported by a triple canon, so close to Hurricane Jo's arrival. Well, there was no point in deciding tonight. The trimaran wasn't moored, and no one would be willing to sail Abigail to it at this time of night. Shivering, Abigail walked on. She needed to get inside quickly. She made her way to the Royal George where, sure enough, she could see the glow of friendly lights. And hear raised voices. Abigail sighed contentedly. Some things never change. She entered quietly, trying to ensure as little of the cold and fog seeped into the warm, well-lit room. An ominous cloud of white smoke hung motionless in the still air, the ventilation system whirring pointlessly in the background. A clutch of theorists sat in straightback chairs facing the bar, balancing small plates of cheap snacks on their knees, their sharp eyes darting suspiciously at their neighbors. Abigail recognized Pippin, Eileen, Derannimer, Dicentra and several Elkinses. And also Cindy, rising slowly from her chair and lumbering to the make-shift plywood podium near the bar. She reached for a pitcher of tepid water and poured it into her glass, her hands shaking only slightly, and took a small sip. Placing her glass carefully on the tottering podium, she finally looked up at the crowd. "My name is Captain Cindy, and I'm a Rage-aholic." "HELLO, CINDY!" boomed the theorists in unison. Pouring herself a cup of tepid coffee, Abigail settled in a chair in the back row. George was slowly coaxing from Cindy the reason for her presence at the meeting. Haltingly, Cindy admitted she feared that something about OOP would make her really mad. "OoP isn't even released yet, and already I'm getting ticked off." Cindy said glumly. "Just the other day, I read in the Wall Street Journal that JKR is *not* going to tour the U.S. to promote OoP. What is up with *that?* She takes three years to write the darn book, and then she can't be bothered to leave her mansion and hop in her private jet and chat for 10 minutes with Connie Chung?" Abigail stood up so fast she spilled coffee over herself. "You can't be serious!" She cried. "Abigail!" George exclaimed. "I know you've never been to one of these meetings before, but do try to avoid such harsh language! We are not here to judge each other." "The hell we aren't!" Abigail insisted, walking up to the podium, wagging her finger directly in Cindy's face. "I hardly think it necessary to remind you, Cindy, that JKR has a baby at home who is not yet three months old. Is this really the time for a nursing mother, whose child is probably not even sleeping through the night, to hop a jet over the atlantic and add jet lag to her troubles? Is this the healthy thing to do, for either the mother or the child?" The room was silent. Cindy's gaze was fixed on Abigail's finger, and something about that gaze made Abigail wish very hard that the offending digit were a completely seperate entity from herself. George delicately inserted himself between the two women, deftly pulling Abigail away. "Do I have to remind you, Abigail," he hissed, dragging her back to her seat, "that this is a group of *rage-aholics*? And that that is Captain Cindy speaking?" He drew a handkerchief from the pocket of his waistcoat and dabbed at his sweaty face. "If you really have no concern for your personal safety, at least consider how delicate this process is. Cindy was making such progress." Abigail glowered, but proffered a half-hearted apology and promised to keep to her seat. George returned to Cindy, already looking longingly at the door and the umbrella rack where, Abigail now recalled, she had seen a decidedly big-looking paddle. Somehow, however, George was working his magic. Cindy returned to the podium and began speaking again. What she said next, however, sent ripples of shock through the crowd. "I think JKR is going to *BOTCH* OoP! How about *that* for a reason to be angry?" A horrified gasp filled the room, and one theorist raced out the side door, her trembling hand covering her mouth. George frantically tried to keep the remaining theorists in their seats. When the mayhem ended, he found Abigail standing, her hand reaching for the ceiling. Gingerly, he motioned her to speak. Abigail nodded her thanks. "I would just like to compliment Cindy on her honesty, and tell her that I feel the same way. However, I think I can offer a word of hope. I don't know how long Cindy has been reading Harry Potter, but I've been a fan since before PoA came out, and I remember very well the hype preceeding GoF. I was in agony during the weeks before that book arrived, terrified that JKR would drop the ball. As you all know, she didn't, and I think that with that she earned our trust. I know that we often claim otherwise on this group, but this is JKR's world, and she does know what she's doing. We should have faith in her - she hasn't steered us wrong yet." Abigail sat down, while George lead the group in some short-lived applause. Cindy, however, seemed less than convinced. "But," she insisted, leaning her elbows on the podium, which rocked dangerously under her considerable weight. "I think OoP will suffer from 'Low Hanging Fruit Syndrome'!" "Low Hanging Fruit Syndrome?" Amanda echoed blankly. "That's right," Cindy said. "OoP will be filled with wonderful opportunities for JKR to do the unexpected. But she won't. She'll go for the safe bet. The easy way out. *The Low Hanging Fruit.* We have a situation where JKR seems to have set he obvious, and I'm thinking she is just going to go for the obvious. Like MemoryCharm!Neville. It would be so much more daring and interesting for her to go with ReverseMemoryCharm!Neville or one of the other complex Neville theories. But she won't, will she? You know she won't. She'll give us MemoryCharmButtKicking!Neville, who is as *PREDICTABLE* as he can possibly be!" she shrieked. "Hmmpf." Came a sound from the back row. "Abigail, you have something to add to this discussion?" George asked sweetly. Abigail stood again. "I'm just wondering how exactly Cindy is defining obvious. I never considered MemoryCharm!Neville until I came to this group. I certainly don't think that it's obvious that we're seeing a Memory Charm at work on him - bloody likely, yes, but obvious? Of course, if the choice is between MemoryCharm!Neville and ReverseMemoryCharm!Neville, the former is obvious, since the latter is, you know, completely bereft of canon, but on its own? Certainly, we can't assume that it is obvious that any sort of Memory Charm theory will be introduced in GoF." "But that's only an example" Cindy howled, "Mrs. Figg will be Good! Real Moody will be Good! Hagrid will be Good to the bitter end! If JKR takes the Low Hanging Fruit, I will scream a long and deadly scream that will pierce the walls of her big ol' Scottish mansion! And then I will throw my book straight into George's fireplace! But it will do no good. Because OoP will already be *RUINED!*" "Hmmpf." From Abigail again. Then she smiled. "So, what you're really hoping to see in OOP is MAGIC DISHWASHER?" Cindy stared at her, speechless. "I mean, most theorists around here agree that it is the least likely theory on the Bay." Abigail continued, smiling innocently. "Even the MDDT claim that there will probably never be support for MD in canon. If what you really want is for JKR to go for the least obvious choice, then you must really be hoping that MD pans out." Cindy was silent. "I thought not." Abigail said, walking once more to the front of the room. "This isn't really about what's obvious, is it? ReverseMemoryCharm!Neville is your baby, Cindy. And you don't want it taken away from you." Cindy looked away. Abigail couldn't swear to it, but she thought she saw moisture on her face. "I understand completely." She said softly. "We've had a wonderful time these last three years. I know we've all complained and whined and practically salivated for OOP, but it was nice, wasn't it? To have to Potterverse to ourselves? To play around in it and invent a million different theories, each more improabable then the one before. I mean, look around you." She gestured at the saloon, and at the world beyond. "What is TBAY, after all, if not the furthest extreme of appropriating JKR's world for ourselves." She pointed at George and Avery. "We even created our own characters! We made ourselves the writer. We second-guessed, we interpreted JKR's every word and punctuation mark, we criticized her motives and methods, we said 'I would do it this way', and then we said 'this is how it should happen'. There's nothing wrong with all of this. Some of what we said is true - heaven knows there are theories that I consider too obvious - LOLLIPOPS, Vampire!Snape, Harry as the Heir of Gryffindor - which I suspect will turn out to be true. But now the fun is over. The writer is coming back for her own, and as she builds a new world for us to play in, she will destroy our delicate, lovingly- crafted creations." "We have two choices. We can retreat further into our own version of the Potterverse - isn't that what fanfic is all about, after all? Or, we can accept JKR's gift with love. When the storm blows over, there will be a great deal of destruction, but JKR is bountiful, She will give us new bricks with which to build a bigger, better TBAY. And face it, isn't it time?" Abigail looked around, meeing each theorist's eye in turn. "Haven't we been repeating ourselves long enough? Isn't it time for new ideas, born of new canon?" The room was silent. Every theorist seemd lost in his or her own thougths. None looked too happy. Abigail walked over to George, glumly pondering his own mortality. She tugged at his sleeve. "George, you have a dingy you use for deliveries, don't you?" He nodded silently. Abigail drew a deep breath, and said, "Do you think I could take it? I need to get to the trimaran." "But," he sputtered, "what you just said... You know what's coming, you know your odds." "I do." Abigail said. "But Auror!Arthur is my creation, and I supported Imperius!Arthur when the weather was fair. I can't leave them now. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'll get wet. I trust JKR. This is her story, it belongs to her and she'll steer us true, but those thoeries are mine. True or false, I made them, or helped to, and nothing can take that away from me." Abigail Who would like to offer an apology if anyone found this post too maudlin or weird, and a special apology for Cindy if I've misrepresented her motives, and for making her TBAY self cry. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed May 21 18:33:51 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:33:51 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58370 Hey, all, I hope I'm not hopelessly behind with this, but I just read it on TLC today, so I'll toss it out there. The Scholastic website at: http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/books/phoenix/ contains the following: "Add to this a host of other worries for Harry ? A Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher with a personality like poisoned honey ? A venomous, disgruntled house-elf ? Ron as keeper of the Gryffindor Quidditch team ? And of course, what every student dreads: end-of-term Ordinary Wizarding Level exams and you'd know what Harry faces during the day. But at night it's even worse, because then he dreams of a single door in a silent corridor. And this door is somehow more terrifying than every other nightmare combined." Are we going to be treated to Mad-As-Hell-And-Not-Going-To-Take-It- Anymore!Winky? Is Fleur going to be the new DADA teacher? And doesn't this corridor *have* to be St. Mungo's? Cindy -- who just doesn't know what to make of these clues From probono at rapidnet.com Wed May 21 18:34:37 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:34:37 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58371 "vivamus42" wrote: > The puzzle to me is why Voldemort would expect that Lily would, after > he told her to stand aside, just stand there and let him kill her > baby. She didn't do that, but why did he even have a glimmer of an > expectation that she would? Me: I personally agree with Darrin and some others that point out Voldie really didn't try too hard to spare Lily. I think there is a very simple explanation. Avada Kedavra is a darn powerful curse. Fake!Moody explains to the DADA class that they could all try to AK him at once, and he probably wouldn't get so much as a nosebleed. It needs serious magical energy behind it. Now, Voldie just AK'd James and was going to AK Harry next. That's two AK's in a matter of minutes. I don't recall in canon any references to a depletion of energy per strength of curse equation, but it is possible that each subsequent curse probably has a little less `oomph' behind it than the previous. Simply, he wants the power to use on Harry. He doesn't want to waste it on this annoying woman in his way, but Lily leaves him no choice. So, to get on with your question: Why did he expect this woman to just move out of the way and let him kill her child? Taking a small step outside of the HP world for a second. According to psychologists, serial killers often dehumanize their victims. They don't see them as human at all. Just `things'. Things that are there to either serve the killer's purpose or things that are there to keep the killer from achieving their purpose. Soldiers are also trained to dehumanize their targets. It makes it easier to kill. It's actually recommended that if you are kidnapped or held hostage you should attempt to re-humanize yourself; talk about your family, show pictures, try to find some commonality between you and your captor etc., etc. So back to HP. I think Voldemort doesn't see Lily, the protective mother. He simply sees an obstruction ? an object that's keeping him from acheiving his goal [killing Harry]. So, it doesn't come as a great surprise to me that he just expects her to stand aside. And this, to me, is also a significant moment in Voldemort's character. This isn't the 16-year-old Riddle that *knew* a mother's sacrifice is a powerful countercharm. This is omnipotent, indestructible, Dark Lord Voldemort, who doesn't even see a mother before him. I believe that this shows the full complete transformation of Tom Riddle into Voldemort. There is no Riddle left anymore ? by this time, there is no humanity at all left in Voldemort. Cheers! -Tanya From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed May 21 18:46:28 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:46:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Message-ID: <31743238.1053542788124.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58372 > Cindy wrote: > > Hey, all,
>
> I hope I'm not hopelessly behind with this, but I just read it on
> TLC today, so I'll toss it out there. The Scholastic website at:
>
> http://www.scholasti c.com/harrypotter/books/phoenix/
>
> contains the following:
>
>
>
> "Add to this a host of other worries for Harry?
> ?and you'd know what Harry faces during the day. But at night it's
> even worse, because then he dreams of a single door in a silent
> corridor. And this door is somehow more terrifying than every other
> nightmare combined."
>
> Are we going to be treated to Mad-As-Hell-And-Not-Going-To-Take-It-
> Anymore!Winky? Is Fleur going to be the new DADA teacher? And
> doesn't this corridor *have* to be St. Mungo's?
If indeed the corridor is St. Mungo's, would that mean Harry visits it early in the book and has continual nightmares, or do these nightmares deal more with what he fears may happen if he's determined to be insane? I'm a bit more concerned with the last line that refers to "unbearable sacrifice." I read that description to my mom and even her eyes widened. She's bound and determined for sacrifice to be deemed unbearable it must be either Ron, Hermione, or Hagrid. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed May 21 18:48:41 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:48:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Message-ID: <154.1f937c00.2bfd2409@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58373 YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com writes: > The puzzle to me is why Voldemort would expect that Lily would, after > he told her to stand aside, just stand there and let him kill her > baby. She didn't do that, but why did he even have a glimmer of an > expectation that she would? Voldemort, like most megalomaniacal villains, simply doesn't conceive of a victim fighting back. The Dark Lord has ordered Lily to stand aside, therefore, Lily will stand aside. No other result even enters his mind. Okay, so he doesn't have any > > understanding of the real depth and potency of mother love. He still > knows that she is Harry's last protector, and must have known > (intellectually if not viscerally) that a mother protecting her child > is a fierce adversary. He is no fool, and yet wanted to attack an > infant while that infant's only protector stood beside him. IIRC, Voldemort (that is to say Tom Riddle, Jr.) never really knew his mother. His childhood was spent with his father and paternal grandparents, all Muggles. This is one of the ways that the early life of the boy who was to become Voldemort parallels that of Harry Potter. Which, again, makes it miraculous that Harry is so well balanced. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Wed May 21 18:53:23 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:53:23 -0000 Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <20030521170017.63371.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Morgan D." wrote: > BTW, can anyone point me to a website that has scans of the inner > images of the first 4 Scholastic books? Some of Mary Grandpre's work for the Scholastic books can be found at this site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/- /461931/ref=hp5_ill_art/104-3025809-4167133 You may have to cut and past the address to your address bar. Bill From hp at plum.cream.org Wed May 21 19:15:18 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:15:18 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <20030521170017.63371.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1053460876.17028.96575.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030521200546.009787d0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 58375 At 18:00 21/05/03 , Morgan D. wrote: >BTW, can anyone point me to a website that has scans of the inner >images of the first 4 Scholastic books? http://www.mugglenet.com/chapterpics.shtml I'm in the same boat as Morgan - owning the Bloomsbury books, I've never paid attention to the fact that the US editions have illustrations and have never sought them out before. Two unconnected but relevant pieces of opinion, offered and to be accepted without rancour or bitterness: 1) I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I don't like GrandPre's work for the Potter books, neither for the cover art nor for the chapter headings. I find them just a little too naive and quite distracting. 2) I am surprised by the amount of speculation which the picture of an incomplete book cover (well, spine and a little of the back cover) has generated in the parallel thread. It all seems utterly pointless to me. As I said, just opinions... I know we're all going a little stir crazy waiting for OoP, but this is going just a little too far for my taste. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who is desperately trying to catch up with almost two weeks' posts and is surprised by the ratio of waffle to meat. From bowlwoman at yahoo.com Wed May 21 19:12:04 2003 From: bowlwoman at yahoo.com (bowlwoman) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:12:04 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny a Parselmouth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" wrote: > Canon: Riddle's memory told Harry that when he was taking over Ginny Weasley, he began to pour some of himself into her. > > Of all the interesting possibilities this raises, the most interesting to me is that Ginny may now be a parselmouth, since she had to speak Parseltongue in order to open the chamber. me (bowlwoman): I have often wondered about this myself, especially now during my re- read of the series in preparation for OoP. It is stated that she didn't remember opening the chamber/writing on the wall/killing the roosters, so who knows exactly what happened when the incidents were going on. It's possible to take his comment as the essence of Tom Riddle possessing Ginny, so she wouldn't have the ability to do it after TR and the diary were destroyed (SHE never had the ability, it was TR all along). OTOH, there is a nice parallel between the Harry/VM transfer of power and a Ginny/TR transfer of power. If this is the case, then Ginny might show the ability for Parseltongue later on as well as some additional powers that TR had when he first started dabbling in the Dark Arts. bowlwoman From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed May 21 19:13:55 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:13:55 -0000 Subject: British culture viewed through the Potterverse. was Re: JKR and the Indan In-Reply-To: <20030521070745.38143.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Anita Sathe wrote: <<>> In some respects it is strange that there are no "overseas" students mentioned. If Draco was nearly sent to Durmstrang, I would expect some students to come from abroad. However, I do not thing of the Patil sisters or Cho, Dean etc as being foreign. To me, they are British. I believe that JKR has tried to represent British society in Hogwarts. The last census in 2001 showed that around 8.8% of the population came from an ethnic minority. Given that in Harry's Gryffindor year alone, there are 2 students from an ethnic background ? Dean and Parvati ? JKR could even be accused of skewing the population slightly. Seamus is a slightly different issue. People have argued that the four founders of Hogwarts represent the four countries making up the British Isles; as such Irish students would naturally come to Hogwarts. Also, Northern Ireland is part of the present day United Kingdom, and Northern Irish students often go to English/Scottish universities. Hogwarts of course, predates all the current unions and problems, and the catchment area might simply still include the whole of Ireland. JKR has painted her world, using, what seems to me at least, a very English backdrop. I never raised an eyebrow to the House system, Prefect System or even the food (though slightly out-dated). But for someone without experience of British culture, the first read must have been very different. I'm still not sure quite why the Potterverse has become so huge on an international scale ? whether it is because of the Britishness, or in spite of it! I suspect that it is probably a combination of the 2. I never cease to cringe when posters mention Harry's graduation; British kids don't graduate from school, so if Harry graduates from Hogwarts that will be another first! I have come to understand why posters make Harry graduate, but I won't believe it unless it happens. Going back to the issue of ethnicity in the Potterverse, I believe that it is only mentioned at all, to show that that particular prejudice does not exist. That aspect of a wizard's background does not matter. Prejudice is explored through the Muggle/wizard divide. To have further issues of prejudice, would I think unduly complicate JKR's message. Ali From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 21 19:35:19 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521193519.56234.qmail@web21201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58378 --- Ersatz Harry wrote: > And here's a more blatant example -- Sirius > sees them when they bring > Buckbeak to him. But maybe it doesn't count > since he's an outlaw > already... Lynn: I would think it's more likely that because the time was, at this point, so close, it wouldn't have mattered. Besides, Harry and Hermione were in the hospital wing so there was no way Sirius could have seen doubles. It's not as if he was going to go back into the school. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From sally.lasko at colorado.edu Wed May 21 17:50:43 2003 From: sally.lasko at colorado.edu (swimsalone) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:50:43 -0000 Subject: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58379 addictedtobass2003: > I may be wrong, but I always assumed that to have a secret keeper, > you needed to have a _secret_ as well as someone who wanted you to > divulge it. > Harry certainly has someone after him, but at the point when the > fidelius charm was supposedly performed on him, Voldemort was less > than a spirit, so was in no fit state to get Harry to spill the > beans on anything. > Also, at the age of one(?) would he have a secret to keep? IIRC, he > doesn't remember anything that happened that night, other than the > burst of green light, and sometimes a scream or a few words from his > who he assumes to be his parents. I believe that Harry's secret would be the same as the one his parents tried to keep: his *location*. Voldemort didn't want information, he wanted any threat to his livelihood destroyed. Dubmledore would not be so foolhardy as to assume Voldemort could never again present a threat to Harry or the rest of the wizarding world, and would certainly have taken precautions against even a remote possibility of you-know-who's return. Swimsalone From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 19:57:22 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521195722.6292.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58380 brassgryphon and vavamus42 wrote: > > Has anyone noticed that there are 24 hours missing from the time > Hagrid picked up Harry and the time he delivered him to the Dursleys'? > > > > What do you suppose happened during that time? > > > > My guess is that Dumbledore put together the means "by use of an > ancient magic" to protect Harry at his relatives' home, and to set up > Arabella Figg as Harry's Secret Keeper with the Fidelius charm. > > I completely agree, but it has to have been about at the moment they > put Harry on the doorstep; otherwise Dumbledore would've been a > little less firm about the whole thing in the first place. And yeah, > it is an ancient theory. now me (addictedtobass2003): I may be wrong, but I always assumed that to have a secret keeper, you needed to have a _secret_ as well as someone who wanted you to divulge it. Harry certainly has someone after him, but at the point when the fidelius charm was supposedly performed on him, Voldemort was less than a spirit, so was in no fit state to get Harry to spill the beans on anything. Also, at the age of one(?) would he have a secret to keep? IIRC, he doesn't remember anything that happened that night, other than the burst of green light, and sometimes a scream or a few words from his who he assumes to be his parents. addictedtobass2003 ME: I partially agree though that there certainly was some sort of magickal protection afforded that place. In fact, Cannon verifies that Voldemort cannot touch Harry there. It is possible too that may be the reason for the 24 hour delay because as mentioned above Voldemort is not a threat at this time, it was still possible that some of the DE's could have been. But even though he was protected there that may not have been the reason at all for the delay. Also, whatever protection Harry is afforded there is not necessarily the fidelius charm. There must be other ways of which we have heard nothing about so far that protected Harry. Myself, I think it probably was and Ms. Figg who Voldemort must not be aware of is the secret holder. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it. While that fits the facts as we know it, let's face it, there is more that we don't know than we do. And there is one interesting thing which counts against that. While (I think) we all agree that Ms. Figg is helping protect Harry, if it's the Fidelius charm, then there would be no particular reason at all for her to live in the same neighborhood as Harry. It's not like they see each other often, rare babysitting notwithstanding. Therefore, if her close proximity is necessary, that would tend to lead to other possibilities. There may be some serious surprises along these line yet to come. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed May 21 19:57:21 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:57:21 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? In-Reply-To: <31743238.1053542788124.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58381 Richelle fretted: > I'm a bit more concerned with the last line that refers >to "unbearable sacrifice." Oh, dear! Richelle's right! I cut off the excerpt a bit too soon. The rest of it reads: "In the richest installment yet of J. K. Rowling's seven-part story, Harry Potter confronts the unreliability of the very government of the magical world, and the impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts. Despite this (or perhaps because of it) Harry finds depth and strength in his friends, beyond what even he knew; boundless loyalty and unbearable sacrifice." Ooooh! "Unbearable sacrifice," huh? That's the very best kind of sacrifice, isn't it? "Impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts." OK, this is not good. Dumbledore is the only real authority at Hogwarts. No way would they be calling Dumbledore "impotent," even if he, er, were. So this must mean Dumbledore is ousted as Headmaster! And the new Headmaster or Headmistress is impotent. Mundungus Fletcher, anyone? "Boundless loyalty?" Sounds like no Evil!Ron. Not yet, anyway. Cindy -- calmly predicting that the "unbearable sacrifice" will be Hermione and who absolutely cannot wait to find out From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed May 21 19:57:34 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:57:34 -0000 Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort In-Reply-To: <154.1f937c00.2bfd2409@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > YahooGroups at T... writes: > > IIRC, Voldemort (that is to say Tom Riddle, Jr.) never really knew his > mother. His childhood was spent with his father and paternal > grandparents, all Muggles. Sorry to have to correct you, but I note that, in the diary, Riddle confirms to then-headmaster Dippet that he lived in a Muggle orphanage. At some other point, perhaps more than one, he indicates that his father abandoned him. I suppose it's possible that he lived with his father and grandparents at some time, but that seems unlikely, especially since he was apparently unknown to the locals when he appeared at the Riddle house and AKd everybody. Ersatz Harry From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 21 20:01:01 2003 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521200101.22477.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58383 --- pippin wrote: > I think the > rest of the staff > probably did too. Lynn: I don't think the rest of the staff knew about it. If Snape had known, he would have known just how Harry and Hermione could have been able to save Siruis and I'm sure in his rage would have spilled it to Fudge. Lynn ===== For the international news that's fit to print http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnnworldnewsq-a __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Wed May 21 20:01:56 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:01:56 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58384 Beaky wrote: > > In PoA, Hermione is getting to all her classes using a time > turner.We know that she must not be seen .< Pippin replied: > I think what Dumbledore meant was,"You must not be seen > using the Time Turner for an unauthorized purpose." > > It was perfectly all right for Hermione to be seen by the other > students in the classes she was doubling up on, though she > wasn't supposed to tell them how she was doing it. McGonagall > knew she had a time-turner, and I think the rest of the staff > probably did too.< Me(Linda): " "Well there you have it Severus," said Dumbledore calmly. Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further" Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape whirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward." pg 420 PoA US paperback IMO, if Snape had known about the time turner, he would have understood exactly how HH could have been in two places at once. So at this point we are left with two interpretations of the above canon. 1. Snape knew about the time turner and when Dumbledore brought up being in two places at once, he realized that HH had used it to save Buckbeak and Sirius. Additionally, he caught the *twinkle* in Dumbledore's eyes and also realized that their actions had been sanctioned and maybe even suggested by the headmaster. His loyalty to Dumbledore took over and the result was for him to clam up and leave the room before his anger made him compromise Dumbledore in front of Fudge. 2. Snape had no idea that Hermione had been using a time turner all year as his class was not one of the classes that Hermione had concurrantly. ( As a core class, schedueling wise it could not conflict with any of the elective classes.) And his reaction was one of pure frustration. When I started out to write this post I was going to say that I was of the opinion that choice two was the correct one. However, as I put my thoughts into words, I have convinced myself that #1 is most probably the case. It makes the most sense. Dumbledore trusts Snape. We have heard him say so several times in canon. Therefore, Snape, especially since he is a former DE (with Dumbledore's full knowlege of that fact), must have an extrordinarily strong sense of loyalty to both Dumbledore and the *light side*. If Snape's sense of loyalty is as strong as I think it is, he would not have betrayed Dumbledore's actions in front of Fudge, (but I'm sure they had quite a conversation in Dumbledore's office after Fudge left). On a totally different subject... A new thought just occured to me. What if Snape's original loyalty to was to Dumbledore and loyalty to the cause of good is a result of Dumbledore's persuasion and influence in his life? Could Snape's loyalty be because of something Dumbledore did for him as opposed to something horrible that LV or the DEs did? -Linda, would an ISP for wizards be called WOL? From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed May 21 20:09:48 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:09:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort References: Message-ID: <003101c31fd4$eea56390$1fccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58385 Tanya wrote: And this, to me, is also a significant moment in Voldemort's character. This isn't the 16-year-old Riddle that *knew* a mother's sacrifice is a powerful countercharm. This is omnipotent, indestructible, Dark Lord Voldemort, who doesn't even see a mother before him. I believe that this shows the full complete transformation of Tom Riddle into Voldemort. There is no Riddle left anymore - by this time, there is no humanity at all left in Voldemort. Kelly followed up: *cues Star Wars theme music* This last line of yours is just too Obi-Wan. He said the same about Vader. And what do you know? Anakin Skywalker was still alive somewhere in all that machinery. I know this isn't Star Wars, but maybe bits of it can still apply. I mean, JKR does take the time to give us Tom Riddle's backstory. On a little more serious note, though, you mention that Riddle never knew a mother's love. From what we've read, no one ever really cared about him. Dippet just told him he'd have to go back to an orphanage where he could more or less rot if Hogwarts was closed. The people who work in orphanages don't have time to develop deep, meaningful relationships with every single child. Tom Riddle has never, to our knowledge, been loved by anyone. So it doesn't surprise me that, in his conquest for world power, thinking about love and a mother-child relationship gets lost in the shuffle. As for no humanity at all being left, we shall see. Maybe that's part of what happened during that ceremony when he came back. Not only is he now mortal, but maybe some of his humanity was restored to him through Harry's and Peter's blood. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From shokoono at gmx.de Wed May 21 13:48:42 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (Carolin M?nkemeyer) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:48:42 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh no! A 'special fan...' References: <002d01c31efd$e2f39800$f015253e@takun> Message-ID: <002701c31fa0$af1dcca0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58386 Well what about Fudge? He is also some kind of fan (example: He refuses to punish Harry, Ron and Hermione in the ending of PoA. He tells that Snape while Harry and Hernione are on their way back to the hospital wing): Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 21 17:34:12 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:34:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521173412.18023.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58387 Ersatz Harry wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anujasathe" wrote: > > You can't really argue that the actual rule is: You must not be > seen by your own selves. [page 288 : Dumbledore in the hospital wing > - "But remember this both of you.You must not be seen.....you know > the law -... you- must- not -be -seen"] This certainly makes it clear > that you can't be sen by anyone at all! I think that the rule is not that you can not be seen, why else would HH hide when they go to get Buckbeak. Robert From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed May 21 20:24:03 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:24:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory References: Message-ID: <003501c31fd6$ecd0b8b0$1fccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58388 Becky: > > 1. Snape knew about the time turner and when Dumbledore > brought up being in two places at once, he realized that HH had used > it to save Buckbeak and Sirius. Additionally, he caught the > *twinkle* in Dumbledore's eyes and also realized that their actions > had been sanctioned and maybe even suggested by the headmaster. His > loyalty to Dumbledore took over and the result was for him to clam > up and leave the room before his anger made him compromise > Dumbledore in front of Fudge. > > 2. Snape had no idea that Hermione had been using a time > turner all year as his class was not one of the classes that > Hermione had concurrantly. ( As a core class, schedueling wise it > could not conflict with any of the elective classes.) And his > reaction was one of pure frustration. > > When I started out to write this post I was going to say that I > was of the opinion that choice two was the correct one. However, as > I put my thoughts into words, I have convinced myself that #1 is > most probably the case. It makes the most sense. Dumbledore trusts > Snape. We have heard him say so several times in canon. Therefore, > Snape, especially since he is a former DE (with Dumbledore's full > knowlege of that fact), must have an extrordinarily strong sense of > loyalty to both Dumbledore and the *light side*. If Snape's sense of > loyalty is as strong as I think it is, he would not have betrayed > Dumbledore's actions in front of Fudge, (but I'm sure they had quite > a conversation in Dumbledore's office after Fudge left). > I agree with you that Dumbledore trusts Snape, and that Snape has a very strong affiliation to Dumbledore. However, I do vote for #2. I think Snape was truly furious with everything that was going on, and that he was not acting, although he is quite capable of acting. We may not know everything that was going on with Snape and/or Dumbledore that night, but I don't ascribe to the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory where Snape was in the know for every last thing that was going on that night and was in control of everything except being knocked out by the students. I do think Snape was clued in to a lot of things after the fact, though, once he had calmed down. > > On a totally different subject... > > A new thought just occured to me. What if Snape's original > loyalty to was to Dumbledore and loyalty to the cause of good is a > result of Dumbledore's persuasion and influence in his life? Could > Snape's loyalty be because of something Dumbledore did for him as > opposed to something horrible that LV or the DEs did? > This reminds me of a theory a friend of mine wrote up awhile back. She is not a member of this list, but did post her theory as an essay to her page. In essence, she argues that Snape was groomed all along by Dumbledore to be his agent, and that he was a plant in Voldemort's organization. For those interested in reading the full essay (where she goes on about some other things as well), it can be found at http://www.wookieehut.com under Stories and Things, then Essays and Rants. It is entitled Snape Is a Plant. > > -Linda, would an ISP for wizards be called WOL? As long as it's not called AWOL. 8) Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova/ From julwalker7614726 at aol.com Wed May 21 18:22:15 2003 From: julwalker7614726 at aol.com (ejom723) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:22:15 -0000 Subject: Arabella & Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58389 Forgive me if the following has all ready been posted, but I did a little research and found that Arabella's name means "answered prayer", which gives into the idea that maybe she really is on Privit Drive to protect Harry. Also, Harry thought she was weird when he was a muggle. I wonder how he felt about her on later meetings after attending Hogwarts and especially after GoF. Another tangent if I may: The whole Godfather issue and Christianity viewpoint. Hogwarts celebrates Christmas and Easter, so it is not a place that has differentiated itself from religion. The Fat Friar (as someone has previously noted) is a Catholic monk. "ejom" From probono at rapidnet.com Wed May 21 20:25:53 2003 From: probono at rapidnet.com (probonoprobono) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:25:53 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58390 "Cindy C." wrote: >From the Scholastic preview: > "Add to this a host of other worries for Harry > > ? Ron as keeper of the Gryffindor Quidditch team > Me: Well this is interesting. All of the other so-called 'worries' that Scholastic listed I can buy, but why would Ron joining the Quidditch team be considered a 'worry' to Harry? -Tanya From lezlieclayton at sbcglobal.net Wed May 21 19:58:14 2003 From: lezlieclayton at sbcglobal.net (Lezlie Zakrzewski) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521195814.93649.qmail@web80001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58391 Mugglenet.com has the "inner pictures." Just look to the menu and choose Chapter Pictures. mongo62aa wrote:--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Morgan D." wrote: > BTW, can anyone point me to a website that has scans of the inner > images of the first 4 Scholastic books? Some of Mary Grandpre's work for the Scholastic books can be found at this site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/- /461931/ref=hp5_ill_art/104-3025809-4167133 You may have to cut and past the address to your address bar. Bill From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed May 21 20:25:53 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:25:53 -0000 Subject: British culture viewed through the Potterverse. was Re: JKR and the Indan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58392 Anita Sathe > wrote: > << no foreign students at Hogwarts other than the Indian Patil > sisters, apart from Seamus, who seems to be Irish - correct me if > I'm wrong. > >>> "Ali" wrote: > In some respects it is strange that there are no "overseas" > students mentioned. If Draco was nearly sent to Durmstrang, I > would expect some students to come from abroad. However, I do not > thing of the Patil sisters or Cho, Dean etc as being foreign. To > me, they are British. Me: Yes, their families have probably been in the country for a minimum of twenty years. Certainly JKR doesn't write their speech as accented, like Fleur's and Viktor's. It's possible that even if families from eastern or southern Europe came to live in the UK, they'd send their kids to Durmstrang and Beauxbatons, as a kind of family tradition, so that could also explain the fairly heterogenous population at the school. "Ali" wrote: > I believe that JKR has tried to represent British society in > Hogwarts. The last census in 2001 showed that around 8.8% of the > population came from an ethnic minority. Given that in Harry's > Gryffindor year alone, there are 2 students from an ethnic > background ? Dean and Parvati ? JKR could even be accused of > skewing the population slightly. Me: That may be an anomaly. We don't know enough about the ethnic backgrounds of the rest of the students in Harry's year. We only know for sure about the Patil twins and Dean, and we only know about Dean from the Scholastic edition of the first book, as the Bloomsbury version did not specify his skin color. The only other student (besides the above) ever described as non-white is Angelina Johnson. Two students described as 'black' (possibly of African extraction), two with names strongly implying a south Asian background and one with a name implying an east Asian background is hardly a tidal-wave of non-Anglo-Saxon students. "Ali" wrote: > I'm still not sure quite why the Potterverse has become so huge on > an international scale ? whether it is because of the Britishness, > or in spite of it! I suspect that it is probably a combination of > the 2. Me: I don't think it's the Britishness, really. There are also American pop-culture phenomenons that are popular around the world--I know a slew of British Buffy the Vampire Slayer fans, and the new Matrix film was released simultaneously around the world, rather than trickling across the globe. I think the appeal is in the tale that JKR is spinning and the combination of humor, drama and mystery that infuses it. "Ali" wrote: > I never cease to cringe when posters mention Harry's graduation; > British kids don't graduate from school, so if Harry graduates > from Hogwarts that will be another first! I have come to > understand why posters make Harry graduate, but I won't believe it > unless it happens. I cringe now when I see that too, because I've seen enough Brits write about that, but what I don't think Brits understand is that Americans and others who use this term don't usually literally mean someone who has gone through a formal graduation ceremony (although I really cringe when I find that someone has written a fanfiction about just such a ceremony occurring at Hogwarts). Much of the time what I think people mean is 'when Harry is out of school' when they say, 'when Harry graduates.' The term is used in this country as a synonym for having finished the highest grade (year) at a school (so that you would say someone is a 'graduate' of XYZ Elementary School or Junior High, and also a 'graduate' of Such-and-Such High School) in addition to the technical definition of someone having gone through a graduation ceremony at the school in question (which is actually formally termed "commencement"). Americans say that someone has graduated from a school whether or not they've actually attended a ceremony, and in fact, attendance at such ceremonies is not always compulsory, although that may differ from school to school. If you successfully completed the highest grade offered at a given school you are a 'graduate' and are said to have 'graduated.' This is used far more often than the Latin terms alumnus/alumna. In American parlance, after Percy finished his seventh year, he became a Hogwarts 'graduate' and is said to have 'graduated.' It doesn't necessarily mean that anyone is implying that he went through a ceremony of any kind if they use these terms in connection with him, only that he successfully completed his schooling. Although some Americans really do seem to be under the impression that Harry may walk across a stage in a robe and mortarboard and receive a Hogwarts diploma, I think that many people who understand that this is never going to happen still use the word 'graduate' because in the US it's used the vast majority of the time to mean 'leave school.' I think Brits may need to just understand that it's a language difference, and that folks who use the term are not necessarily delusional about what goes on in British schools, or the fictional Hogwarts, specifically. Please understand that it has more than one meaning here and be a little more understanding of folks using it in this way who may not know the way that Brits use it (or don't, rather). "Ali" wrote: > Going back to the issue of ethnicity in the Potterverse, I believe > that it is only mentioned at all, to show that that particular > prejudice does not exist. That aspect of a wizard's background > does not matter. Prejudice is explored through the Muggle/wizard > divide. To have further issues of prejudice, would I think unduly > complicate JKR's message. Me: I think you're right about that. To raise more issues other than human/non-human (as in Ron's remarks concerning elves, werewolves and giants) and wizard/Muggle-born/Squib/Muggle would complicate things needlessly. She does start to stray into the territory of ethnic prejudice twice in GoF; first, when Fudge complains about not being able to communicate with the Bulgarian minister in GoF and then later learns that the Bulgarian minister could speak English and found Fudge's pantomimes amusing (although it's possible that the whole point of this was to paint Fudge in a poor light, which it does); secondly, when a character we never see, with a recognizably Arabic name (Ali Bashir), is said to be agitating to have flying carpets considered legal in Britain, instead of their being something Arthur Weasley would have to confiscate. Crouch, Sr. is the one talking about this to Arthur at the QWC. It's unclear whether this is supposed to reflect poorly on him; frankly, it sounds a little like he might be taking Bashir's side. --Barb http://group.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed May 21 20:33:05 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:33:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Missing 24 Hours References: <20030521195722.6292.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c31fd8$2fce92d0$1fccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58393 > brassgryphon and vavamus42 wrote: > > > > Has anyone noticed that there are 24 hours missing from the time > > Hagrid picked up Harry and the time he delivered him to the > Dursleys'? > > > > > > What do you suppose happened during that time? > > > > > > My guess is that Dumbledore put together the means "by use of an > > ancient magic" to protect Harry at his relatives' home, and to set > up > > Arabella Figg as Harry's Secret Keeper with the Fidelius charm. > > > > I completely agree, but it has to have been about at the moment > they > > put Harry on the doorstep; otherwise Dumbledore would've been a > > little less firm about the whole thing in the first place. And > yeah, > > it is an ancient theory. > > now me (addictedtobass2003): > I may be wrong, but I always assumed that to have a secret keeper, > you needed to have a _secret_ as well as someone who wanted you to > divulge it. > Harry certainly has someone after him, but at the point when the > fidelius charm was supposedly performed on him, Voldemort was less > than a spirit, so was in no fit state to get Harry to spill the > beans on anything. > Also, at the age of one(?) would he have a secret to keep? IIRC, he > doesn't remember anything that happened that night, other than the > burst of green light, and sometimes a scream or a few words from his > who he assumes to be his parents. > > addictedtobass2003 > > BECKY: I partially agree though that there certainly was some sort of magickal protection afforded that place. In fact, Cannon verifies that Voldemort cannot touch Harry there. It is possible too that may be the reason for the 24 hour delay because as mentioned above Voldemort is not a threat at this time, it was still possible that some of the DE's could have been. But even though he was protected there that may not have been the reason at all for the delay. Also, whatever protection Harry is afforded there is not necessarily the fidelius charm. There must be other ways of wh ich we have heard nothing about so far that protected Harry. Myself, I think it probably was and Ms. Figg who Voldemort must not be aware of is the secret holder. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it. While that fits the facts as we know it, let's face it, there is more that we don't know than we do. And there is one interesting thing which counts against that. While (I think) we all agree that Ms. Figg is helping protect Harry, if it's the Fidelius charm, then there would be no particular reason at all for her to live in the same neighborhood as Harry. It's not like they see each other often, rare babysitting notwithstanding. Therefore, if her close proximity is necessary, that would tend to lead to other possibilities. There may be some serious surprises along these line yet to come. Huggs Becky One thought I had last night on this before falling asleep that does touch on this. I was thinking about McGonagall in general, and ended up thinking about that fateful Halloween night. What does McGonagall do the whole next day? Sit at the Dursleys house and watch them. Yes, we find out that she's been waiting for Dumbledore to show up, but what if that's not the full reason she was sent there? What if DD was afraid one of the DE's would try to take out the Dursleys (in particular, Petunia), and sent McGonagall there to make sure they were safe? She might not have even been aware of this portion of her assignment, but I am sure that she would have acted if someone had tried to hurt them. I also notice that she had no problems with Vernon going to work, but stayed with Petunia the whole day. Then again, there were plenty of other wizards around Vernon's workplace. Perhaps one of them was there to make sure nothing untoward happened to him as well. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed May 21 20:41:20 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (flamingstarchows at att.net) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:41:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58394 The US covers create speculation because Mary GrandPre is allowed to read the entire book in order to come up with her illustrations. ~Cathy~ > At 18:00 21/05/03 , Morgan D. wrote: > 2) I am surprised by the amount of speculation which the picture of an > incomplete book cover (well, spine and a little of the back cover) has > generated in the parallel thread. It all seems utterly pointless to me. > From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed May 21 20:52:53 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:52:53 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "truebeliever60" wrote: > wrote: > > > > And the best thing: They are famous for being vampire-hunters! Due > to > > their intimate knowledge of vampires and their supernatural > > abilities, they are very efficient in detecting and destroying > their > > vampiric families. > > > > I really like the vampire hunter angle. Has anyone inquired into > Snape's qualifications for the DADA job? Has he fought vampires > before? We don't know, but I hope we find out. Most DADA profs have > had some qualifications that include previous experience combating > the Dark Arts. If Snape thinks he is qualified, then he must have had > some experience doing something like that before. > > truebeliever Me: And what evidence of that have we seen? Maybe that's where he went at the end of GoF (vampire hunting) but as far as what Snape's been up to we have a fairly good idea. Not the details of course--that's where the mystery is--but we know he spent 7 years at Hogwarts not vampire hunting then immidiately became a Death Eater and as far as we know so far, that job description doesn't include vampire hunting (admittedly it might, we'll see). Then he started at an unusually young age in a highly responsible position at a boarding school which of course leaves very little time for--you guessed it--vampire hunting. Mel From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Wed May 21 20:59:59 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:59:59 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory In-Reply-To: <003501c31fd6$ecd0b8b0$1fccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: >Linda: > > > > 1. Snape knew about the time turner and when Dumbledore > > brought up being in two places at once, he realized that HH had used > > it to save Buckbeak and Sirius. Additionally, he caught the > > *twinkle* in Dumbledore's eyes and also realized that their actions > > had been sanctioned and maybe even suggested by the headmaster. His > > loyalty to Dumbledore took over and the result was for him to clam > > up and leave the room before his anger made him compromise > > Dumbledore in front of Fudge. > > 2. Snape had no idea that Hermione had been using a time > > turner all year as his class was not one of the classes that > > Hermione had concurrantly. ( As a core class, schedueling wise it > > could not conflict with any of the elective classes.) And his > > reaction was one of pure frustration. > > > > When I started out to write this post I was going to say that I > > was of the opinion that choice two was the correct one. However, as > > I put my thoughts into words, I have convinced myself that #1 is > > most probably the case. It makes the most sense. Dumbledore trusts > > Snape. We have heard him say so several times in canon. Therefore, > > Snape, especially since he is a former DE (with Dumbledore's full > > knowlege of that fact), must have an extrordinarily strong sense of > > loyalty to both Dumbledore and the *light side*. If Snape's sense of > > loyalty is as strong as I think it is, he would not have betrayed > > Dumbledore's actions in front of Fudge, (but I'm sure they had quite > > a conversation in Dumbledore's office after Fudge left). > > Kelly wrote: > I agree with you that Dumbledore trusts Snape, and that Snape has a very > strong affiliation to Dumbledore. However, I do vote for #2. I think Snape > was truly furious with everything that was going on, and that he was not > acting, although he is quite capable of acting. We may not know everything > that was going on with Snape and/or Dumbledore that night, but I don't > ascribe to the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory where Snape was in the know for every > last thing that was going on that night and was in control of everything > except being knocked out by the students. I do think Snape was clued in to > a lot of things after the fact, though, once he had calmed down. Me again(Linda): I think that I might have not been very clear in my original post. I never meant to imply that Snape knew about everything that was going on that night. MD never even entered my mind. I was actually crediting Snape's intelligence. Even if he had not been told that Hermione was using a time turner to attend her classes, I'm sure he would have figured it out. IMO he knew about how many classes she was taking if only from hearing other students talking. In addition, as an adult wizard, he would most probably know about the existance of such a device. Based on the obstacle he put forth to protect the SS/PS, he has a logical mind and the evidence was plain to see for someone who had all the pieces. I think that he didn't realize what was going on until the tail end of the confrontation in the hospital wing at the end of PoA. In that instant of realization, he took a moment to gather his bearings and left the room before his temper could override his sense of loyalty and he said something that he would later regret. - Linda From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 21:02:54 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: <003d01c31fd8$2fce92d0$1fccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030521210254.12690.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58397 Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > One thought I had last night on this before falling asleep that does touch on this. I was thinking about McGonagall in general, and ended up thinking about that fateful Halloween night. What does McGonagall do the whole next day? Sit at the Dursleys house and watch them. Yes, we find out that she's been waiting for Dumbledore to show up, but what if that's not the full reason she was sent there? What if DD was afraid one of the DE's would try to take out the Dursleys (in particular, Petunia), and sent McGonagall there to make sure they were safe? She might not have even been aware of this portion of her assignment, but I am sure that she would have acted if someone had tried to hurt them. I also notice that she had no problems with Vernon going to work, but stayed with Petunia the whole day. Then again, there were plenty of other wizards around Vernon's workplace. Perhaps one of them was there to make sure nothing untoward happened to him as well. Kelly Grosskreutz Me: Two problems. First- She was pretty disgusted with the Dursleys and tried to talk Dumbledore out of leaving Harry there. She didn't seem to be part of any plan and didn't know what Dumbledore was doing really. Second-When Dumbledore saw her waiting there he chuckled to himself "I might have known." In other words he certainly didn't expect her presence there so her being there was not part of any plan of his. In fact, I'm not sure that McDougall is part of the anti-Voldemort group at all. She seems left out of anything important. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From burgess at cynjut.net Wed May 21 21:04:57 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:04:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: <1053103144.6450.99131.m12@yahoogroups.com> References: <1053103144.6450.99131.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <12118.204.248.21.50.1053551097.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58398 >My questions are therefore: > >1) Are there heirs of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw alive in this time >frame? I'm going out on a limb here. Has anyone but me noticed that Hermione and Ron seem to be in the wrong houses? Clearly, these two should have been sorted into Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw (respectively? I don't have my books handy). Why would the sorting hat put them all into the same house? To put them together so that they could continue the work of their ancestors? Yes, I am suggesting that Ron (who comes from a pureblood family that could easily go back to a certain Miss Ravenclaw) is the heir of that bloodline. I'm still a little how Hermione ended up here (coming from a Muggle family) but it does seem to follow that she's either the heir, or the image of, Miss Hufflepuff. > >2) Will the return of the heirs of each of the four founders signal >the oft hinted *end of Hogwarts....* No, but I think that the heirs of the four founders will have one big battle at the end and at least two of them will die in the process. Since Voldemort didn't have any kids we know about, it makes sense that the other three will vanquish him, just as their ancestors removed Slytherin from the school 10 centuries ago. -- Dave Burgess Bellevue, NE 68123 From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 21 21:31:36 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:31:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > 2. Snape had no idea that Hermione had been using a time > turner all year as his class was not one of the classes that > Hermione had concurrantly. ( As a core class, schedueling wise it could not conflict with any of the elective classes.)<< Canon has it otherwise. In chapter 7 of PoA, Ron and Harry leave Potions Class with Hermione. They are mystified as she disappears from behind them and reappears "hurrying up the stairs; one hand clutched her bag, the other seemed to be tucking something down the front of her robes." It can't be the next period that's doubled, because it's lunch, for which Hermione says she's starving. Not surprising if her internal clock is a couple of hours off. Of course this leaves us with a possible Flint. But perhaps Hermione is taking her elective class with the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs. Pippin who staunchly supports option 1. From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 21 21:35:45 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:35:45 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner References: Message-ID: <006801c31fe0$f12b2da0$ad91253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58400 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ersatz Harry To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:13 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anujasathe" wrote: > > You can't really argue that the actual rule is: You must not be > seen by your own selves. [page 288 : Dumbledore in the hospital wing > - "But remember this both of you.You must not be seen.....you know > the law -... you- must- not -be -seen"] This certainly makes it clear > that you can't be sen by anyone at all! Ersatz Harry added: And here's a more blatant example -- Sirius sees them when they bring Buckbeak to him. But maybe it doesn't count since he's an outlaw already... Me: (Izaskun)? I think this statement "you must not be seen" means that they shouldn't be seen where, or maybe I should say when they were not supposed to be. For instance, nobody should see HG and HP freeing Buckbeat because they were not supposed to be there, and of course they shouldn't see or be seen by their past selves. No one should see them return to the Hospital Wing because they were supposed to be in bed, talking to the Headmaster. And no one should see Hermione while going to her classes, that means that she had to be extra careful not to be seen by herself or Harry or Ron or any of the classmates that attended the other subjets and would be extremely annoyed to see her at two different places at the same time. But it doesn't mean that they should not be seen at all. Professors and pupils could see Hermione attending Arithm but as they didn't know she was in Divination at the same time it was ok. Black could see them and nothing happened when they rescued him, but he didn't know they were at the same time in the hospital wing talking to Fudge, so it was ok. DOes it make sense? The only thing that annoys me is that Fudge should know that Hermione had a time turner, because they had to ask for a especial permition to the MoM, and Snape, being a teacher should know too. So, why didn't any of them think about this possibility????? CHeers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 21 21:40:05 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:40:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Special Ed. Book Cover - Close Up References: <2d.2ede72fb.2bfbf950@aol.com> Message-ID: <007601c31fe1$8c409050$ad91253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58401 ----- Original Message ----- From: Meliss9900 at aol.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Special Ed. Book Cover - Close Up In a message dated 5/20/2003 4:09:57 PM Central Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > Points of interest- > > Farther down on the right where the spine meets the face right above > the broken window there appears to be a humanoid creature standing on > the ledge. This could be a gargoyle facing forward, or another > humanoid crouched and viewed from the side. My imperssion is that it > is the crouched side view of an old bald man with glasses (only a > maybe on the glasses). Meliss9900 wrote: It looks like an house elf to my daughter and I (Dobby to be specific). Maybe Winky but the nose looks more like dobby's and not Winky's squashed tomato like nose me (izaskun): Well, I don't think it's a house elf, it has wings. It looks more like a gargoyle to me. Cheers, Izaskun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From innermurk at catlover.com Wed May 21 21:41:14 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:41:14 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" > wrote: > >Linda: > > > > > > 1. Snape knew about the time turner and when Dumbledore > > > brought up being in two places at once, he realized that HH had > used > > > it to save Buckbeak and Sirius. Additionally, he caught the > > > *twinkle* in Dumbledore's eyes and also realized that their > actions > > > had been sanctioned and maybe even suggested by the headmaster. > His > > > loyalty to Dumbledore took over and the result was for him to > clam > > > up and leave the room before his anger made him compromise > > > Dumbledore in front of Fudge. > > > 2. Snape had no idea that Hermione had been using a time > > > turner all year as his class was not one of the classes that > > > Hermione had concurrantly. ( As a core class, schedueling wise it > > > could not conflict with any of the elective classes.) And his > > > reaction was one of pure frustration. > > > > Me again(Linda): > > I think that I might have not been very clear in my original > post. I never meant to imply that Snape knew about everything that > was going on that night. MD never even entered my mind. I was > actually crediting Snape's intelligence. Even if he had not been > told that Hermione was using a time turner to attend her classes, > I'm sure he would have figured it out. IMO he knew about how many > classes she was taking if only from hearing other students talking. > In addition, as an adult wizard, he would most probably know about > the existance of such a device. Based on the obstacle he put forth > to protect the SS/PS, he has a logical mind and the evidence was > plain to see for someone who had all the pieces. > > I think that he didn't realize what was going on until the > tail end of the confrontation in the hospital wing at the end of PoA. > In that instant of realization, he took a moment to gather his > bearings and left the room before his temper could override his > sense of loyalty and he said something that he would later regret. > I innermurk have to disagree: Snape was nothing if irrational that night. He was more than willing to turn over an innocent man to the Dementors. And he showed this more than once. I don't think he knew about the TT for that reason, because even though he is loyal to DD, his irrational behavior that night would've spurred him to betray DD just to get Sirius. I think he realized that DD knew *something* and he knew that Harry did *something* but I don't think he knew *what* (all his yelling and spluttering about Potter proves this) He tried to blame them and get the Minister of Magic to blame them as well, until DD stepped in. When he realized DD was behind it, he left, albeit after a few minutes hesitation where he shot poisonous looks all around. (Probably to continue his fuming and ranting away from them all) He left maybe out of his loyalty to DD, because he didn't want to expose that DD was behind it. BUT if he'd known *how* Harry and Hermione did what they did, I'm not so sure he would've kept his mouth shut about it. Two of his least favorite pupils, protecting one of his most hated rivals (Sirius) and a chance to get revenge and a medal (Order of Merlin) all at once? Too much. When he knew DD did something, his loyalty carried him so far as to leave before he blurted it. But I don't believe his loyalty goes so far as to cover Harry or Sirius. Innermurk From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed May 21 21:47:50 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:47:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Missing 24 Hours References: <20030521210254.12690.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007d01c31fe2$a0e97430$1fccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58403 > > > Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > > > One thought I had last night on this before falling asleep that does touch > on this. I was thinking about McGonagall in general, and ended up thinking > about that fateful Halloween night. What does McGonagall do the whole next > day? Sit at the Dursleys house and watch them. Yes, we find out that she's > been waiting for Dumbledore to show up, but what if that's not the full > reason she was sent there? What if DD was afraid one of the DE's would try > to take out the Dursleys (in particular, Petunia), and sent McGonagall there > to make sure they were safe? She might not have even been aware of this > portion of her assignment, but I am sure that she would have acted if > someone had tried to hurt them. I also notice that she had no problems with > Vernon going to work, but stayed with Petunia the whole day. Then again, > there were plenty of other wizards around Vernon's workplace. Perhaps one > of them was there to make sure nothing untoward happened to him as well. > Becky: Two problems. First- She was pretty disgusted with the Dursleys and tried to talk Dumbledore out of leaving Harry there. She didn't seem to be part of any plan and didn't know what Dumbledore was doing really. Second-When Dumbledore saw her waiting there he chuckled to himself "I might have known." In other words he certainly didn't expect her presence there so her being there was not part of any plan of his. In fact, I'm not sure that McDougall is part of the anti-Voldemort group at all. She seems left out of anything important. Huggs Becky As for the first part, I agree in that she didn't know she was there to protect Petunia. I still say she could've been sent there ostensibly to wait for him, not knowing the second part of her mission, since she does not seem to be part of the "old crowd." I also agree she had no idea why Dumbledore wanted her there anyway. Being smart, maybe she figured he would want to know something about the people that lived there, and since she was told to meet him there, she watched Petunia and Dudley all day. As to the second, I did read it as him being surprised slightly to see her there, but it could also be in reference to her being there as a cat instead of as a human. He should've known she'd spend the day as a cat. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed May 21 22:06:00 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:06:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? References: Message-ID: <009301c31fe5$2b2913b0$ad91253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58404 Mel wrote: And what evidence of that have we seen? Maybe that's where he went at the end of GoF (vampire hunting) but as far as what Snape's been up to we have a fairly good idea. Not the details of course--that's where the mystery is--but we know he spent 7 years at Hogwarts not vampire hunting then immidiately became a Death Eater and as far as we know so far, that job description doesn't include vampire hunting (admittedly it might, we'll see). Then he started at an unusually young age in a highly responsible position at a boarding school which of course leaves very little time for--you guessed it--vampire hunting. Izaskun (that's me) says: I have already posted this, but here it goes again, SNape was not a Hogwarts teacher before the Potters were killed, "Snape?" said Black harshly, taking his eyes off Scabbers; for the first time in minutes and looking up at Lupin. "What's Snape got to do with it?" "He's here, Sirius," said Lupin heavily. "He's teaching here as well." He looked up at Harry, Ron, and Hermione." PoA chapter 18. Black didn't know Snape was at Hogwarts, that clearly implies that he was not a teacher when Black was imprisoned 13 years ago. He probably joined the school staff at about the same time. Beforewards he was probably too busy as a DE and a spy to teach full time in the school. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Wed May 21 22:46:08 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:46:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58405 Linda wrote: > > I think that he didn't realize what was going on until the > > tail end of the confrontation in the hospital wing at the end of > PoA. > > In that instant of realization, he took a moment to gather his > > bearings and left the room before his temper could override his > > sense of loyalty and he said something that he would later regret. > > > Innermurk replied: > Snape was nothing if irrational that night. He was more than willing > to turn over an innocent man to the Dementors. And he showed this > more than once. > I don't think he knew about the TT for that reason, because even > though he is loyal to DD, his irrational behavior that night would've > spurred him to betray DD just to get Sirius. > I think he realized that DD knew *something* and he knew that Harry > did *something* but I don't think he knew *what* (all his yelling and > spluttering about Potter proves this) He tried to blame them and get > the Minister of Magic to blame them as well, until DD stepped in. > When he realized DD was behind it, he left, albeit after a few > minutes hesitation where he shot poisonous looks all around. > (Probably to continue his fuming and ranting away from them all) > > He left maybe out of his loyalty to DD, because he didn't want to > expose that DD was behind it. BUT if he'd known *how* Harry and > Hermione did what they did, I'm not so sure he would've kept his > mouth shut about it. Two of his least favorite pupils, protecting one > of his most hated rivals (Sirius) and a chance to get revenge and a > medal (Order of Merlin) all at once? Too much. > When he knew DD did something, his loyalty carried him so far as to > leave before he blurted it. But I don't believe his loyalty goes so > far as to cover Harry or Sirius. Linda again: Maybe I need to take a writing class because I can't seem to get my point across here. I keep leaving out key points. *sigh* Ok. Here we go. Snape's irrationality during the whole sequence of events is an important part of my theory. If, as I now believe, Snape already knew about Hermione using the time turner for her classes, that doesn't need to even figure in his behavior during this crisis(for lack of a better word). I am contending that he figured out about Hermione and her earlier use of the TT sometime during the course of the school year, not that night. He was most decidedly irrational both in the shreiking shack and after Black's escape and IMHO the effect was that all his rationalization skills and logic had flown out the window. The TT never even occured to him because he wasn't rational enough to think anything through. He realized the TT use and Dumbledore's involvement at virtually the same instant. Since he didn't know the *how* until the same time that he discerned Dumbledore's involvement he had a quick decision to make. Also, canon only says that Snape "stared" at everyone in turn. There is no mention of what kind of look he was giving them. Maybe he was staring at both DUmbledore and Fudge trying to decide with which one he was going to ally himself with. I see this as a major point in the developement of Snape's character developement. He had to decide publically where his loyalties lay and kept his loyalties with Dumbledore, despite his animosity toward HH. -Linda, who hopes she was clear enough this time because she is running out of ways to explain this From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed May 21 23:17:59 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:17:59 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > Me: > And what evidence of that have we seen? Maybe that's where he went at > the end of GoF (vampire hunting) but as far as what Snape's been up > to we have a fairly good idea. Not the details of course--that's > where the mystery is--but we know he spent 7 years at Hogwarts not > vampire hunting then immidiately became a Death Eater and as far as > we know so far, that job description doesn't include vampire hunting > (admittedly it might, we'll see). Then he started at an unusually > young age in a highly responsible position at a boarding school which > of course leaves very little time for--you guessed it--vampire > hunting. > Mel Ah, but just because Snape is at Hogwarts does not mean he isn't doing a bit of vampire hunting ;-) Plus, it is the idea that Snape could either be a vampire or a dhampire that is the point. He could have special abilities, hunting or other, that might be of use to Dumbledore. Finchen said: >His special tendency for the dark arts could also be a result of >Snape being a >dhampire... vampires are dark human creatures and trerefore he could >just be >very talented in regard to the dark arts. >This could also explain why he wants to teach DADA. He knows a lot >from his own >experience. And you still don't know where he grew up... Yes, Snape could have a natural talent in the dark arts due to what he is. Yet there could be many other reasons for his knowledge. We don't know where he grew up. Let's hope we find out soon! I will still support the theory of Snape being a vampire until I'm proven wrong. Vampires are mentioned in the books. We are surely going to see them soon. I must point out that we never hear Snape expressing a desire for the DADA job and he never shows a dislike for potions. "K" From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 21 23:49:00 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:49:00 -0000 Subject: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: <20030521210254.12690.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58407 Becky Walkden wrote: In fact, I'm not sure that McDougall is part of the anti-Voldemort group at all. She seems left out of anything important. Huggs Becky now me: I agree with everything else you mentioned, however i would think it almost certain that she would be directly involved within the anti-voldemort resistance. she will follow DD regarless of her own reservations becuase she respects and understand that DD does not act without reason. Besides the point i think most would agree that she is a most able witch, although she has not yet really used any real magical ability I think her abilities and importance will become apparent in OOP and beyond. lee (all this just mentioned could be irrelevant if she is the one who dies in OOP, which is very possible) From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Wed May 21 23:55:17 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heirs of Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff was Re: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: <12118.204.248.21.50.1053551097.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: <20030521235517.41419.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58408 David Burgess went out on a limb and wrote: << <<>> And now me, that is Odile, peers up from the the bottom of the tree to write: Er, how is that you came to believe that Ron is the possible heir of Ravenclaw? And that Hermione is the heir of Helga Hufflepuff? Their first initials? <--not to be snerky, honest! I ask because, according to the hypothesis?- hypothosis?- er, *theory* of the whole heir issue, Harry Potter may be Godric Gryffindor's heir because GG and HP share similar traits (bravery, daring, etc.); just as Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort is Salazar Slytherin's heir (cunning, general nastiness, etc.) Ravenclaws are the intellectuals - the air signs, if you follow the astrological association; just as Hufflepuffs are the earth signs: loyal, steadfast, "down to earth." (Gryffs would be the fire signs & Slyths the water signs, to finish the thought.) So, I am interested to know how you came to think of Ron as Ravenclaw's heir when he is not exactly a star pupil and Hermione as Hufflepuff's heir when, although she is indeed loyal, she is also brave and daring enough for Gryffindor. Odile, :::rocking and muttering "only 30 more days...::: From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Wed May 21 21:48:18 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:48:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her time -turner In-Reply-To: <20030521.122525.-998811.0.emeleel@juno.com> References: <20030521.122525.-998811.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <3ECBF422.2050207@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 58409 Melanie L Ellis: > Speaking of the Time Turner, as someone pointed out in a previous > discussion, since you live through the same time periods twice, that > means you age that much more. I wonder how many hours Hermoine added to > her life that year, and um, did it affect her, uh, "development" any at > all? Did she have to suffer though any extra "feminine problems" because > she'd added to her life? (Hey, if folks can ask about how humans and > giants "do it"..... LOL) > I made some roughly calculations (but I admit, I didn't deduce course schedule from canon). Let's assume that one school week has 30 h of lessons. If we assume worst case scenario then Hermione's every lesson had conflicting schedule (I mean by that _every_ lesson required use of Time Turner). So Hermione's week is longer by 30 h (basically her week had 8 days). In school year there are about 42 weeks. 42x30h=1260 h 1260h/24h=52,5 days So excessive use of TT by Hermione added her (in worst case) ca. 52 days to her year. I would say, therefore, that any growth difference related to TT is negligible. (I would even argue that stress related to all those lessons had negative impact on her health and "development"). Regards, Pshemekan From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu May 22 00:36:03 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:36:03 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire? In-Reply-To: <009301c31fe5$2b2913b0$ad91253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > > > Mel wrote: > And what evidence of that have we seen? Maybe that's where he went at > the end of GoF (vampire hunting) but as far as what Snape's been up > to we have a fairly good idea. Not the details of course--that's > where the mystery is--but we know he spent 7 years at Hogwarts not > vampire hunting then immidiately became a Death Eater and as far as > we know so far, that job description doesn't include vampire hunting > (admittedly it might, we'll see). Then he started at an unusually > young age in a highly responsible position at a boarding school which > of course leaves very little time for--you guessed it--vampire > hunting. > > Izaskun (that's me) says: > I have already posted this, but here it goes again, SNape was not a Hogwarts teacher before the Potters were killed, Mel clarifies: No, he was, as I said above, a Death Eater. And at the particular point you mention here, a spy as well--a double, possibly triple agent. Which *probably* did not leave a lot of time for vampire hunting. > > "Snape?" said Black harshly, taking his eyes off Scabbers; for the first time in minutes and looking up at Lupin. "What's Snape got to do with it?" "He's here, Sirius," said Lupin heavily. "He's teaching here as well." He looked up at Harry, Ron, and Hermione." PoA chapter 18. > > Black didn't know Snape was at Hogwarts, that clearly implies that he was not a teacher when Black was imprisoned 13 years ago. He probably joined the school staff at about the same time. Beforewards he was probably too busy as a DE and a spy to teach full time in the school. My point exactly! Thanks. Mel > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Thu May 22 01:17:45 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:17:45 -0000 Subject: I Float On (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58411 PEEVES the Poltergiest, in his first HPF solo: I Float On To the tune of I Move On, from Chicago (the film version) Dedicated to Maria THE SCENE: The Great Hall of Hogwarts, 3 a.m. ? Enter the notorious poltergeist, PEEVES PEEVES When banned from feasts at Hogwarts School, I won't remain withdrawn, I just float on. When I receive a lecture from the Slytherin Baron, I just float on, I float on. You'll hear a pop, and in I'll drop with balloons filled to burst I'm such a thug when I pull rugs, you'll know that you have been coerced Once Filch has heard all my curse words, I love to egg him on, I just float on, I float on. So though the gum may make me glum when it goes up my nose. I won't get honked, I'll grab a conk, dressed in my most outlandish clothes So if its Black or Heir attack, my lungs possess much brawn, I just float on, I float on. So rude and wrong, just like my songs, I just float on, I float on. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 5/20/03 with 48 new filks) From Malady579 at hotmail.com Thu May 22 01:55:58 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:55:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Grief Management In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58412 Once again, as it always seems to occur when a theorist begins to preach at George's, the door swing open and a small girl runs in out of the wind. Making a beeline to the bar, she hops herself on a barstool and sit on her knees to be able to talk face to face with the ever amused bartender. "George, I need a pint of fresh carrot juice to go," Melody said pulling her cape up around her shoulders. George reached for a blender to puree the carrots with his special mix of liquors and raised an eyebrow at the girl as he filled it. "Oh it is not for me," she fussed. "Coney is not as fierce with her bites if I mix that juice with puree sirloin, and I do *not* need her teething on every theorist that comes by the safe house with OoP coming out so soon." Twirling one of her curls around her fingers, Melody sat listening to the ever present debates in the bar. Given that Cindy and Abigail are the loudest in the room, she could not help but listen in as bits of the conversation reach her. >"That's right," Cindy said. "OoP will be filled with wonderful >opportunities for JKR to do the unexpected. But she won't. She'll >go for the safe bet. The easy way out. *The Low Hanging Fruit.* >Like MemoryCharm!Neville. It would be so much more daring and >interesting for her to go with ReverseMemoryCharm!Neville or >one of the other complex Neville theories. But she won't, will she? >You know she won't. She'll give us MemoryCharmButtKicking!Neville, >who is as *PREDICTABLE* as he can possibly be!" >"Hmmpf." From Abigail again. Then she smiled. "So, what you're >really hoping to see in OOP is MAGIC DISHWASHER? I mean, most >theorists around here agree that it is the least likely theory on the >Bay." Abigail continued, smiling innocently. "Even the MDDT claim >that there will probably never be support for MD in canon. If what >you really want is for JKR to go for the least obvious choice, then >you must really be hoping that MD pans out." Melody rolled her eyes and sighed. "Abigail." A smile broke out on Abigail's face. She coyly turned around to face the small girl and batted her eyes innocently. "Why, Melody so nice to see you." Melody sat back on the barstool, rested an elbow on the bar, and the side of her head on the hand. "We may not be around much recently, but we *are* still here in TBAY." "Could of fooled me," Cindy snorted. Melody cut her eyes over to the Captain and broke a smile. "We have just been a bit...distracted as of late. But you have no need to know what goes on behind the door of the safe house, so Abigail..." "Yes, Melody," she smiled sweetly. "Oh stop that!" Melody spat. "You are fooling *no one* with that big puppy eyes routine. Now MD, while it is a knock your socks off far left punch, it is not outside the scope of possibility. And that is what we have all done here. We are using what we know, how JKR writes, and created what *we* think she is trying to do. Now, the anxiety you feel, and you too Cindy, is the fear that we, the humble readers and fans of the series, we might just out-think, out-smart, and out-plot the goddess herself. That would be so disappointing to us. "We so want to feel the way we did as HP virgins. To be awed. Dazzled. Out smarted. Out maneuvered. But at that time when we read those first four, we were not as aggressive in our theories back then. We did not have as much time to waste..." "Waste?" Gail asked looking up from her *filk*. "Oops, did I say waste?" Melody blustered, "I meant pass. Fill. Exercise our education and linguistics skills. And sometimes logic..." "Logic?" Abigail asked with a raised eyebrow. Melody cut her a glare. "You questioning MD's logic?" "Always," Abigail smiled. Melody noticed she leaned a bit back out of sword range. "Anyway...the anxiety you are feeling Cindy is the desire to feel alive again as a reader. To feel that you can read a book like a wide eye HP virgin again and not a jaded, over-analyzed, literature-fried HP captain who has been out at sea for far too long and weathered by its salty air a bit too much. "You making a crack at the state of my hair, Melody?" Cindy asked gripping the side of the chair in front of her. "No sir, Captain," Melody said wide eyed. "Just saying you have manned that ship of your so long and so dedicated that you have traveled far from your original starting point. Not a bad thing, but now that you are coming back to the beginning for a visit, you are getting anxious. The memories of before are getting to you. You want JKR to wow you again. It might not happen. Others have wowed you since, so you are hoping you can still feel that feeling. That is all." Cindy turned that chair around and sank down in it resting her head on the table. George, in a moment of kindness, tossed the Captain a pillow. She sat it under her head and closed her eyes muttering sleepily, "I just want to be wowed. Is that too much to ask? Wow me JKR. Please." Abigail looked at the Captain and back at Melody. "So, MD is not what Cindy is wanting?" "No," Melody said flatly. "*If* it is MD, Cindy would still be disappointed I think in a sense. It means we did figure JKR out and we did discover her plans. Cindy would not be shocked or surprised. She would just think, 'hey, Pip was right.' Cindy, and I think we all, want to be still shocked and wonder while we read, 'Why did we not think of that? How did we miss that?' To have *no one* be right. Now *that* would be a feat for JKR to pull off." George came up with Melody's carrot juice for Coney and a blanket for Cindy. "Thanks George," Melody smiled springing up to leave. "No problem, kid," he nodded as he spread the blanket of the Captain's shoulders. "Will she be ok?" Abigail asked looking a bit concerned as Cindy said still muttering to herself into the pillow. "Yeah, she just needs the patented George's TLC," he grinned largely. "She will be her theorizing self again once OoP comes out. Right now she is theorized out." Melody From Audra1976 at aol.com Thu May 22 02:02:34 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:02:34 EDT Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Message-ID: <192.1aa82ce2.2bfd89ba@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58413 probono at rapidnet.com writes: > Voldie just AK'd James and was going to AK Harry next. That's two AK's in a > matter of minutes. I don't recall in canon any references to a depletion of > energy per strength of curse equation, but it is possible that each > subsequent curse probably has a little less `oomph' behind it than the previous. > Simply, he wants the power to use on Harry. He doesn't want to waste it on this > annoying woman in his way, but Lily leaves him no choice. Me: I don't think so. If Voldemort was really concerned about two AK's not leaving him with enough energy for a third, or for that matter, about sparing Lily, he could have used a number of other curses on her. Off the top of my head, he could have Imperio'd her and commanded her to move, or petrified her like Hermione did to Neville, or shot ropes out of his wand and tied her up as Snape did to Lupin, or I'm sure there's another spell to render someone unconscious. The list could go on and on. If Voldemort wanted to conserve his energy, or if he cared anything about sparing Lily, many less powerful spells or curses would have been effective in moving her. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Thu May 22 02:14:01 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort kills James and Lilly-why not send the Death-eaters to do it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58414 I realize this thread is getting a bit cold at this point, but I was thinking about this earlier today and wanted to respond. On Sun, 18 May 2003, iamscabberstherat wrote: > Does anyone else find it curious that Voldemort went to kill the > Potters himself? Why didn't he send the Death-eaters to do it? I figure there were two reasons: 1) It was too important to trust to anyone else. We know from LV's comments to the elder Crabbe and Goyle in GoF that his underlings have screwed up royally in the past. Better to let the all-powerful (in his own mind, at least) and immortal Dark Lord do it himself than to risk failure at the hands of one of his flunkies. As the cliche says, 'If you want something done right, do it yourself.' 2) He wasn't sure which of his Death Eaters he could trust. He must have known there was a spy among his ranks, someone who tipped off the Potters that he was after them, sending them into hiding. Sirius and Remus both knew about the spy, so presumably Pettigrew, LV's inside man, knew as well. Given that, if LV had turned the Potter murders over to one or more DEs, he could have inadvertently been giving the spy the opportunity to save their lives. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 22 03:15:44 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:15:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory Message-ID: <20030521.221545.-508289.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58415 On Wed, 21 May 2003 20:59:59 -0000 "Linda" writes: > > > 1. Snape knew about the time turner and when Dumbledore > > > brought up being in two places at once, he realized that HH had > used it to save Buckbeak and Sirius. Additionally, he caught the > > > *twinkle* in Dumbledore's eyes and also realized that their > actions had been sanctioned and maybe even suggested by the headmaster. > His loyalty to Dumbledore took over and the result was for him to > clam up and leave the room before his anger made him compromise > > > Dumbledore in front of Fudge. Me, Melanie: Actually, this makes a lot of sense, whether you ascribe to the "Snape knew about the TT and finally put two and two together" theory, or just that he caught DD's hint and shut up before he broke the limb he was standing on all by himself. IIRC, at the end of GoF, when DD has Sirius show himself, Snape has nothing more to say than, "You!" in conjunction with one of his patented Infamous Glares of Snapely Hatred. Somewhere along the line he either figured it out for himself, or DD filled him in, otherwise he would have been sputtering all over the place about why the **** was Sirius there, how much does who know about it, etc. Instead he unquestioningly, albeit grudgingly, accepts Sirius' presence and his right to join the coming fight. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com Thu May 22 04:08:46 2003 From: Rosebeth710 at hotmail.com (Rosebeth C.) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:08:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What will Harry do Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58416 >From: "M.Clifford" >I was reading the Trelawney prediction in POA just yesterday, looking >for the fly, and I noticed the exact same phenomenon you mentioned >here. lol >It was a passing thought I didnt give much to, because I went >straight back to studying for my finals. >Anyway, now you mention it, yes. >I do think Harry has coincedently guessed the story a bit much, >hasn't he. >Now I am thinking about it do you suppose it has something to do with >him being untruthful. >Like a pinocchios nose when he tells a lie the lie manifests before >him. Maybe he should be watching out how he uses a power like that. >Can anyone else think of a lie that Harry told that was made manifest >further into the story? > >Valky > Rosebeth (me): It's funny that you bring this up today because I was thinking about this on my drive home from work this evening. Here is what I have for you all to consider about Harry being a "seer" In GF, Chapter 14 US Paperback, Harry and Ron get fed up and start making up their Divination standby. They are supposed to be making predictions for the next month. They get the timing wrong, but the events right. First Harry predicts that he will be in danger of burns. This is a very real concern when your up close and personal with a dragon. Then Harry predicts that he will lose a treasured possession. This can manifest itself in two ways. One it's part of the clue from the egg. Second, a friend can be considered a treasured possession and when Harry needs Ron most (after having his name read from the Goblet) Ron isn't there for him. Next, Ron suggests "Why don't you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?" Harry likes that idea. We know how that turns out. See above. Then they both suggest that they are going to be involved in a fight. I always took that for a physical fight, or the fight Harry has with Draco. Thinking about again, I think it refers to the month that he and Ron didn't speak because they both come up with independantly. Harry's final prediction is his own death by decapation. I can't think of what this could represent. I hope it's not forshadowing the end of the series. Then again, it could mean nothing. Even true seers don't get them all right. And maybe he just thought of it because after all the Gryffindor ghost is Nearly Headless Nick. Rosebeth _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Thu May 22 04:37:13 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP In-Reply-To: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030522043713.37238.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58417 Cathy wrote: > The US covers create speculation because Mary GrandPre is allowed to > read the entire book in order to come up with her illustrations. And Cathy erroneously quoted: > > At 18:00 21/05/03 , Morgan D. wrote: > > > 2) I am surprised by the amount of speculation which the picture > > of an incomplete book cover (well, spine and a little of the back > > cover) has generated in the parallel thread. It all seems utterly > > pointless to me. And I (Morgan) correct: It was Gulplum who said that, not me. I don't mind the mistake so much. I agree with Gulplum's opinions more often than not (although I'm glad he does the job of stating those opinions, composing long emails to defend them and taking responsibility, while I can selfishly lurk and enjoy the "combats" from a safe distance). But maybe *he* minds having his thoughts credited to someone else, so... he said those. I didn't. In this particular case... I agree it is pointless. I wouldn't say it is "utterly" pointless though. I think it's pointless because I doubt we'll manage to guess much from the cover pics, and I doubt a shadow in the reflex on a window that can only be seen in a zoomed-in, high-contrast version of the pic will be that meaningful -- it doesn't seem like the illustrator's style to leave that kind of microscopic clues, judging from the little I saw so far. Lucky creature, that Mary GrandPre, got to read the book before us, but honestly, I don't think she's going to let anything important slip in the drawings Scholastic will allow us to see now. On the other hand, even if I haven't been in this group for long, I already feel most of the discussion topics have become old news. We still have a month to go, and we need something to do until then. And personally, I'd rather take a look at those pics, which I've never seen before anyway, than start banging my head against the wall (which I'll probably do as soon as I'm done examining those pics). So for those who aren't on the verge of a nervous breakdown and can remain calm and untroubled until they're able to read OotP, yeah, this is probably utterly pointless. As a matter of fact, I was hoping my comment on Lupin's description in canon would veer into a discussion of how JKR's rather succinct descriptions are interpreted (by official illustrators, fanartists, ficwriters, whatever). For example, all she'll say about Lupin is that he has light-brown hair with some graying tresses, a young face, a tired look and shabby clothes, but I know many people that are absolutely certain that he has golden hair, and others that will never draw his face without deep wrinkles around his eyes and mouth. Myself, I keep conveniently forgetting that Snape is supposed to be tall, and that Harry's knees are supposed to be knobbly, and even that Trelawney is supposed to wear glasses. I wonder why. JKR seldom (never?) offers us much detailing in her character descriptions. She picks five or six adjectives to each character and keeps repeating them over and over. And somehow it seems so easy to "forget" those and make up characters in our minds that have little or nothing to do with how the author portrayed them in canon. Some of it can be blamed on movie contamination; some can be blamed on arguable "gospel" (Sirius being "dead sexy", for example); and some... cannot. But oh well, I'm not good in starting discussions, and it's not like the topic hasn't been discussed before, so... *shrugs* A million thanks to everyone who sent me links to GrandPre's illustrations, on the list and off-list. Hopefully those will keep me from having a fractured skull for at least a couple of weeks more. Another rage-aholic, Morgan D. Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jodel at aol.com Thu May 22 04:37:53 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:37:53 EDT Subject: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory Message-ID: <1cb.a2a1b5c.2bfdae21@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58418 Linda asks: > A new thought just occured to me. What if Snape's original loyalty to was to > Dumbledore and loyalty to the cause of good is a result of Dumbledore's > persuasion and influence in his life? Could Snape's loyalty be because of > something Dumbledore did for him as opposed to something horrible that LV > or the DEs did? > I've found myself considering that we may have another strong possibility knocking around here. For example, regarding the aftermath of the infamous "Prank"; I am absolutely convinced that when James pulled him out, Snape went storming off to hammer on Dumbledore's office door until Albus let him in. And we do *not* know what kind of a deal was struck in that session. All Sirius knows is that he and his friends were not expelled and that Snape was forbidden to speak of what he had seen. Our assumption that Dumbledore "favored" his Gryffindors at Snape's expense may be well off the mark. I've begun to wonder; if Black and Potter were their generation's Fred and George whether Snape may have been their Percy. And if that parallel goes more than skin deep, Dumbledore may have been very glad for a chance to have a detailed private talk with this particular clever, prickly, upright Slytherin boy. After all, he knew he needed eyes and ears in the enemy camp. The Snape/Dumbledore "deal" may have been struck all the way back then, and Snape has *always* been on the "right" side. The testimony at Karkaroff's trial was damage control, not the whole truth. Of course, one thing about Snape that's obvious. Regardless of however sound he may be on the major issues, he is petty as dedamned on everything that affects him directly. Even if whatever agreement he struck with Dumbledore may have been to a much geater benefit to himself in the long run, that Sirius Black did not get expelled for the Prank is something that Snape will remember to his dying day -- and he'll never stop whinging about it either. > >would an ISP for wizards be called WOL? > If isn't isn't, it should be! -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Thu May 22 04:37:56 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:37:56 EDT Subject: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Message-ID: <35.384e9277.2bfdae24@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58419 Tanya writes: > This isn't the 16-year-old Riddle that *knew* a mother's sacrifice is a > powerful countercharm. This is omnipotent, indestructible, Dark Lord > Voldemort, who doesn't even see a mother before him. > > I believe that this shows the full complete transformation of Tom Riddle > into Voldemort. There is no Riddle left anymore ? by this time, there is no > humanity at all left in Voldemort. > And even that 16-year-old Diary revenant was no more than an evil memory, rather than an actual human being. The Changeling Hypothesis takes the view that this is exactly what the Reborn!Voldemort actually is. He is an embodied evil memory, much as Diary!Riddle would have been if he could have sucessfully exchanged his life for Ginny's. There is no actual human base there. Everything that was still human of Tom Riddle is now alive in Harry Potter. And neither of them know it yet. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rstephens at northwestern.edu Thu May 22 01:26:51 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:26:51 -0000 Subject: Heirs of Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff was Re: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: <20030521235517.41419.qmail@web13104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Odile Falaise wrote: > David Burgess went out on a limb and wrote: > << seem to be in the wrong > houses?? Clearly, these two should have been sorted > into Hufflepuff and > Ravenclaw (respectively? I don't have my books handy). > > > > << pureblood family that > could easily go back to a certain Miss Ravenclaw) is > the heir of that > bloodline. > I agree with Odile that it seems well, wrong, to think that Ron and Hermion= e are: 1) Shouldn't be in Gryffndor 2) The heirs of other houses There seems to be no evidence to support these claims as far as I can see. = Many people point to the fact that Hermione's superior intellect would make= her a perfect fit for Ravenclaw, but I don't agree with that assesment. We must not unjustly belittle the courage of Ron and Hermione just because = their actions aren't at Harry level. Harry personifies Gryffndor, which ma= kes him a huge measuring stick to, well, measure up to. Very few (none really)= Gryffndors have the bravery and daring that he has, but that does not mean = they are not courageous in their own right. Even Neville, who shows levels= of cowardice, has proven his placement in Gryffndor has merit (PS/SS). Hermione has few intellectual peers in her class (or at Hogwarts even), but= that does not mean she does not have the courage to be sorted into Grffndor= . She has shown throughout the first 4 books that she does not like to break = the rules, but she never backs down to help her friends and the wizarding world= . Ron has constantly proven his bravery as well. He's undeniably loyal, yes,= but he undenaibly courageous as well. In SS he sacrificed himself so that = the others could go on. He's put his life on the line time and again. What's = not courageous about that? As far as the heirs of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are concerned, I think JKR = has given us no reason to be concerned with them. We know few students in = these houses; unless JKR gives us something more to go on, I see little reason to wonder who the heirs of these houses are. On that note, do we have cannon evidence that there is an heir of Gryffndor= (I'm really asking, I don't know)? JKR has emphasized that fate/destiny ta= kes one only so far. It is our choices that make the future, not the past. Th= us, Harry could be the heir, he could not. It might not even matter. I think we should accept that HRH are in Gryffndor and are in the right hou= se. Yes Harry would have done well in Slytherin, but he had a choice and made it. Rachel From RedWingsChica at starband.net Thu May 22 02:11:53 2003 From: RedWingsChica at starband.net (Jade Rauenzahn) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 22:11:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner References: <006801c31fe0$f12b2da0$ad91253e@takun> Message-ID: <004301c32007$8535c7a0$e8a641d8@DONITELLO> No: HPFGUIDX 58421 ----- Original Message ----- > The only thing that annoys me is that Fudge should know that Hermione >had a time turner, because they had to ask for a especial permition to >the MoM, and Snape, being a teacher should know too. So, why didn't any >of them think about this possibility????? > CHeers, Izaskun Fudge should have known? Not necessarily. The Ministry of Magic, as described in the books, seems to be a very large organization with lots of various departments. It's quite plausible that McGonagall and Dumbledore dealt with a certain department - say the Department of Protected Magic or the Department of Time, to list a few possibilites. Fudge seems to be akin to the President - surely he's not aware of everything that goes on in every department. Usually the president is only brought into department matters when something goes wrong - I'd assume it would be the same thing for the MoM. As for Snape not knowing, I could see him not knowing. McGonagall was the only teacher who gave any indication that she knew about Hermione's time turner, and I'd bet that McGonagall knew about it because she's Dumbledore's second in command. Dumbledore probably asked for her help to get everything set. Also, she's the one who hands out the course schedule to the students, so she might be in charge of student scheduling as well. - Jade Rauenzahn (BTW, I'm new here. I'm an 18 year old from Michigan and I graduate high school.... tomorrow! Yay) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From distractedone at comcast.net Thu May 22 05:16:04 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:16:04 -0400 Subject: The Trelawney Prediction References: Message-ID: <00af01c32021$3e0b8da0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58422 >>Izaskun: >> I think DD witnessed Trelawney's first prediction, and LV knew >> about it by some way or the other. There were a lot of spies for >> both sides in those days. Or maybe LV didn't know the prediction, he >> just went after the Potters because he an extremely evel centaur >> told him about Saturn and Mars brighting unusually the night Harry >> was born, or whatever. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Pip!Squeak: >Possible - but the easiest route is Snape. He's the one person we >currently know of who would have good reason to tell *both* >Voldemort and Dumbledore. If Snape is a witness, no extra spies are >required. If Dumbledore is the sole witness, we have to explain how >Voldemort found out, and why Snape doesn't share McGonagall's >obvious contempt for Trelawney. Who's to say that Trelawney's first prediction even had anything to do with Harry and Voldemort? We know that according to canon she's only had two real predictions but nothing was ever said what the first one was about. There has to be some other reason why Voldemort went after the Potters. Do you think Voldemort would trust a prediction from someone who never had a true prediction in their life before that one? Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com Wed May 21 21:44:59 2003 From: ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com (ace_of_spades_99) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:44:59 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter message boards, theories or our own private escape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58423 Hello, I am new to this forum but I have started to read previous posts. I would like to say it is refreshing to find intelligent Harry Potter conversation on a trash loaded internet. I would like to address a couple of issues that Abigail touched on in her Grief Management post. I do believe there are those out there who have been criticizing J.K. Rowling far too much in the last few months. I feel that it is time for us to face the music and realize, hey, these are her characters, these are her books, and that she will do whatever she wants with them. It has been fun to theorize about what will happen and to create our own stories and characters, and if J.K.R. does mess up the book series in your eyes doesn't take your wonderful stories, characters and fantasies away from you. In fact she will be giving you more material to weave your own magical world. I am a Harry Potter obsessed freak but I am mature enough to realize that all artists put the seed of creativity in our minds and expect us to grow from it. J.K.R. is probably one of the best artists ever at accomplishing this. Look at all the websites and discussion boards that have popped up, Order of the Pheonix cannot take any of that away from you. It may yet be her crowning achievement and if not it will have took about 2 days out of your life and then you will come back here to complain and theorize till the next book arrives. So you see no matter what I will be a Harry Potter J.K.R. fan to the end. She started it and I'm sure she will bring it to a glorious conclusion. (but where will we take it from there :) Hanna From oppen at mycns.net Wed May 21 19:05:29 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:05:29 -0500 Subject: "Foreign" students at Hogwarts Message-ID: <00f501c32033$2805de40$08570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 58424 Actually, both Cho Chang and the Patil sisters could be as British, legally at least, as Harry himself or HM the Queen. (Who, let us not forget, is mostly German by ancestry). There are _lots_ of British subjects and residents of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi origins or ancestry; they range from people fresh off the boat to people who, except for their darker skins and last names, are just like the neighbors in almost every way. I don't think East Asians, such as Cho Chang, would be _as_ common as they are in, say, the Western US or Western Canada, but they are far from unknown. Justin Finch-Fletchley's name is very upper-class, as is his background (you don't usually get put "down for Eton" unless you're right up there socially, as I understand it.) There's a whole bunch of clues to where HP characters stand in the British class system that whizzes right past most American readers; even I, who am far more familiar with British life and mores than most USers, probably miss a lot of clues. (A name like "Malfoy," spelled, as it is, in archaic French, would mean someone _fearfully_ aristocratic, while about everything about Neville Longbottom screams "working class," at least according to a correspondent of mine from the UK who loves the HP books herself) In a lot of ways, JKR made Hogwarts as the antithesis of the "traditional" picture of a British boarding school---abundant, tasty food, four-poster beds, luxurious comfort instead of Spartan discomfort---and one of the ways Hogwarts is different is that it ignores, as much as possible, the British class system. As I understand it, a kid from the "wrong" class (too low _or_ too high) will be miserable at school, usually, in the UK. His accent will be wrong, his family's ways will be wrong, and the other kids won't let him forget it for a second, until he learns to conform. I could expand on a thesis of Professor Dumbledore's attitude of "if you've got the magic talent, you're welcome at Hogwarts" as JKR's comment on this sort of nonsense---but I won't. While I could easily postulate that "foreign" students exist at Hogwarts, Harry might just not have noticed that they're "foreign;" odd names aren't that uncommon any more, and they'd probably speak British English fluently. Even American kids who get sent to British schools (poor wretches!) come out of it able to switch into a British accent at will. --Eric, whose own attempts to speak British English come out sounding like someone the Kray Twins would have hired, back in the day From enderjulia at yahoo.com Thu May 22 08:02:19 2003 From: enderjulia at yahoo.com (Julia) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:02:19 -0000 Subject: Heirs of Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff was Re: Why the Potters? (some OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58425 Rachel wrote: > > David Burgess went out on a limb and wrote: > > << > seem to be in the wrong > > houses?? Clearly, these two should have been sorted > > into Hufflepuff and > > Ravenclaw (respectively? I don't have my books handy). > > > > > > > > << > pureblood family that > > could easily go back to a certain Miss Ravenclaw) is > > the heir of that > > bloodline. > > > > I agree with Odile that it seems well, wrong, to think that Ron and Hermion=> e > are: > 1) Shouldn't be in Gryffndor > 2) The heirs of other houses > > There seems to be no evidence to support these claims as far as I can see. => > Many people point to the fact that Hermione's superior intellect would make=> > her a perfect fit for Ravenclaw, but I don't agree with that assesment. > > We must not unjustly belittle the courage of Ron and Hermione just because => > their actions aren't at Harry level. Harry personifies Gryffndor, which ma=> kes > him a huge measuring stick to, well, measure up to. Very few (none really)= Adding on now - I'm a little, I don't know the best word to use, surprised, I guess, over all this speculation about the heirs and correct placement in houses. Don't get me wrong, I understand the significance of Harry perhaps being Godric's heir. (Oh, Rachel, for clarification, the proof of this is the Potters staying at Godric's Hollow, the red and gold sparks from Harry's wand, his bravery, the sword in book two, etc.) But I don't see why Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw are such an issue, considering the biggest rift was always between Godric and Salazar, according to book two. I think my biggest issue is the fact that we know literally nothing about Ravenclaw, the Gryffindors never have classes with them. We know about their intellect, the Grey Lady, and of course Cho Chang, and a handful of other names, but that's it. There's never been interaction with them, unless you count Cho. And I stick with the choice vs. blood lineage theory. JKR emphasizes it, and even if Harry is Godric's heir, that fact alone will obviously not enable him to defeat Lord Voldemort. Otherwise his father or mother (whichever side is Godric's heir - not making assumptions about Lily) should have been able to defeat him. This has been brought up before, countless times, but I just keep hearing this whole theory of Ron, Hermione, and Harry being the heirs and ultimately defeating the fourth heir, a.k.a. Voldemort, which I don't agree with. It just seems so... not just predictable, but well, for lack of a better term, blah. I honestly think it'll come down to Harry. His destiny, if you will, seems to intertwine and effect others, but remains unchanged even so. Personality wise, the other characters change. Yes, Harry has matured, grown, but he's arguably still the eleven-year-old kid we met in book one. Wiser, perhaps, especially since book four, but still good, brave, reserved, soft-spoken, and self-doubtful. On to the house issue. I, too, think that everyone has been placed in the correct house. We are given our characters' entire psyche from the Sorting Hat, in a vague, very small way. Ron, and his siblings, show bravery and daring countless times, as does Hermione. Same with Neville. The Sorting Hat is able to ascertain characteristics we realize later, and thus is able to place the first years. Like Harry, the Sorting Hat technically could have placed Harry in Slytherin anyway, but it understood Harry's will not to choose self-ambition over morality. Thus, it lets Harry into Gryffindor. It's not a matter of the Sorting Hat agreeing, it understands Harry will only ultimately do well in Gryffindor simply because of who Harry is, whether or not, characteristically speaking, Harry would have done well in Slytherin. Same goes for the rest of the students. Hermione is the top student of her class, so were James, Lily, Bill, and Percy, and they were all in Gryffindor. Ron, Ginny, and Neville, arguably could be in Hufflepuff, just as Hagrid could have been, but they still truly belong in Gryffindor. Neville is brave simply for growing with his family situation, Ron for following and in a way, protecting Harry through all his trials. And Ginny we don't know much about yet. I think that's the great aspect about the whole Sorting ritual. We don't know why some of the students are in the houses there in, but the Sorting Hat understands things we don't. It's just something else to be solved (as if we need anything else :)). To be honest, I think of Ron and Hermione, and the rest of Harry's friends, to be just ordinary, for wizards compared to Harry, anyway. I want Ron to have something special, besides the girl (Hermione) as some have hypothesized. But at the end of the day, it all comes back to Harry. He's the reason I read these books in the first place. There are things about himself he doesn't know, and I find it interesting to watch him seperate WHO he is from WHAT he is. It's interesting to watch his friends do it, too, like Ron in book four. I do want to know how Ron and Harry's relationship will develop with Ron becoming Keeper, and if he does date Hermione, and so on. It could very well strain the relationship or strengthen it. And it may very well put Harry even more on his own, in a way. He relies on his friends, yet at the same time, is forced to concentrate and worry about being the hero, if you will, even though he'd gladly give up the role. He's the one Voldemort's after, and know one knows why. Went off on a tangent, sorry about that, but there my thoughts in all their glory (ugh). I have to finish writing a paper now, so later all! Julia From hp at plum.cream.org Thu May 22 10:32:54 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:32:54 +0100 Subject: Character descriptions (was OoP covers...) In-Reply-To: <20030522043713.37238.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030522104822.0099c960@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 58426 Morgan D. wrote, regarding the OoP conversation: >It was Gulplum who said that, not me. I don't mind the mistake so much. >I agree with Gulplum's opinions more often than not (although I'm glad >he does the job of stating those opinions, composing long emails to >defend them and taking responsibility, while I can selfishly lurk and >enjoy the "combats" from a safe distance). But maybe *he* minds having >his thoughts credited to someone else, so... he said those. I didn't. I don't really care whether people correctly attribute my musings or not, as long as people don't attribute what someone else says to me. So, not surprisingly, it was in Morgan's purview to correct the attributions of anti-GrandPre sentiments. :-) As for "enjoying the combats from a safe distance", I should say that I got several emails last night from people who agree with my sentiments but don't feel up to admitting to it in public. (You know who you are, and I no, I'm not going to "out" you.) :-) As for long emails, I have at least three in the works but am extremely busy with other things right now but hope to post them soon. (BTW the "P" in my screen-name is upper-case - for utterly unimportant reasons, it's important to me) :-) >I wonder why. JKR seldom (never?) offers us much detailing in her >character descriptions. She picks five or six adjectives to each >character and keeps repeating them over and over. And somehow it seems >so easy to "forget" those and make up characters in our minds that have >little or nothing to do with how the author portrayed them in canon. >Some of it can be blamed on movie contamination; some can be blamed on >arguable "gospel" (Sirius being "dead sexy", for example); and some... >cannot. > >But oh well, I'm not good in starting discussions, and it's not like >the topic hasn't been discussed before, so... *shrugs* I don't think it *has* been discussed in any depth before, actually. I have very mixed feelings about this issue. On the one hand, JKR's style is remarkable in that she instantly creates characters with whom we can empathise (or not, as individual cases demand) with just a thumbnail sketch. Yet on the other, we actually know extremely little about characters' appearance. On one level, something came up on the Movie list (at least, I think it was the Movie list rather than here) when people were speculating about Cedric's casting: it's not until late in GoF that we discover that he has dark hair (considering he pops up several times in PoA). No poll was taken, but it seems from the conversation that most people (myself included) saw him as light-coloured. This is just yet another way that JKR plays on our perceptions and pre-conceptions and constantly surprises us. (She's not the only one who's used this writing ploy: one of Anthony Burgess's books doesn't reveal until the very last page that the main protagonist is Black - it puts a completely different slant on the whole story and one is immediately inspired to read the whole thing again. I'm deliberately not naming the book.) On a different level, it's occasionally annoying not to get a good mental picture of the characters, and the reader is left filling a lot of holes. Adult characters' ages are a recurring source of debate in HP fandom and there are very few clues in the text. Only two adult characters are given any kind of age-related terminology in their descriptions, namely Dumbledore (whose advanced age is drummed into our heads again and again) and Lupin, who is simply described as "young" (which becomes a plot point because we have no other grounds on which to equate him age-wise with Snape, or indeed James). Someone who intrigues me in this respect and whose description gives absolutely no clues, is Karkaroff: he could conceivably be in either Snape's age group or Dumbeldore's. He and Snape are on first-name terms (were they at school together?) but then he's particularly informal with Dumbledore as well (is it only because of his headmaster status?). His relationships and role in the unfolding plot can be perceived very differently, depending on who is his contemporary. I won't bother with explaining those differences, as I think it's pretty obvious. (As a movie fan, I have a separate, and OT, problem because I can't decide whether my ideal casting would be Jurgen Prochnow as a Snape contemporary, or Max Von Sydow as a Dumbledore one). :-) It is in this respect more than perhaps any other that I think that JKR reveals the "children's book" nature of the HP canon: to a child, "adults" are one amorphous mass and anyone over the age of 20 is close to past their prime, and anyone over 40 is simply "old". -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who really has more important things to be doing right now, and should have gone out over an hour ago - back this evening with more, with any luck! From rane_ab at hotmail.com Thu May 22 10:40:31 2003 From: rane_ab at hotmail.com (rane_ab) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:40:31 -0000 Subject: Smell, descriptions and spells (WAS: OOP: The people in the promo pics... In-Reply-To: <20030522043713.37238.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58427 > > Morgan D. wrote: > > > I wonder why. JKR seldom (never?) offers us much detailing in her > character descriptions. She picks five or six adjectives to each > character and keeps repeating them over and over. And somehow it seems > so easy to "forget" those and make up characters in our minds that have > little or nothing to do with how the author portrayed them in canon. > Some of it can be blamed on movie contamination; some can be blamed on > arguable "gospel" (Sirius being "dead sexy", for example); and some... > cannot. > I suppose JKR likes to leave it to us to let our imaginations work. I don't know about others, but I sometimes find it irritating when a person is described into great detail, and there's something about that person I don't like, while it is actually a "good" character. This way we can shape the character to be exactly what we like (as you said). Something else I've been wondering about is the fact that there are very little references to smell in the books. Just off the top of my head, I think there might be two or three all in all (only when something really stinks (like the Polyjuice Potion, I think) or when the characters can only discern something through their sense of smell (like in CoS where Harry and Ron are led by the Great Hall upon their arrival and can smell the food). Well, maybe a bit more, but it won't be many. I doubt it has any meaning, but it just struck me as a little odd. Most people don't necessarily consciously pay much attention to smell, but we all use it, and it gives us many clues. I wonder what it smells like inside Hogwarts. Does it have an old, stuffy smell? Does it smell of the stones the castle is built in? Does is smell of cleaning products? One could postulate, of course, that a spell is used to make the halls inside of Hogwarts smellless, but I doubt this is the case. I think it would make Hogwarts lacking in personality if this were the case. That is why it is bothering that there are little references to it. Surely it must smell differently in the Great Hall, in the Gryffindor commonroom, and in the dungeons? And in Potions class? And people usually have some kind of smell... Of course, I can't really imagine JKR letting Harry 'sniff out' all the other characters (come to think of it, rather not :-) ), but even during the Yule Ball there is not reference to perfume or some such, and I just can't imagine those weren't being used. When I step into a room at a party, that's usually one of the first things that hit me - the smell. And I don't even have a particularly good sense of smell. And in a certain fraction of the fanfiction world at least, there is some discussion as to whether Snape's hair is really that greasy, and if so if that means he totally lacks in hygiene. JKR seems to make an attempt at making him as repulsive as possible (greasy hair, greasy temple (The Egg and Eye scene in GoF), and it is somewhere mentionned he has yellowish teeth); you'd think he'd smell, then, wouldn't you? And the smell of old sweat is a pretty offensive one, no something that would pass unnoticed. And Dumbledore? He's an old man - and old people usually have quite specific smells, but there is no mention of this in the books. Of course, they could just all be using spells to suppress the smell of their bodies, but that doesn't make much sense. It has been asked before why Snape doesn't use a cleaning spell on his hair, but who says such exists? You could also ask yourself why Hermione spent hours working on her hair with magic gel (sorry, don't recall the name and I don't have the books with me) just before the Yule Ball when she might as well have used a quick spell. It's apparently not like there's a spell for everything. After all, if there were, why would wizards even bother getting out of bed or moving a limb? So I don't think spells can explain the absence of smells. (It's possible, I just don't think it's likely.) As I said, I don't think it means anything, it just bothers me a bit. Well, just a little thought crossing my mind... Rane, Who actually *does* have something better to do, and is going to run off very quickly now... From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 11:45:54 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:45:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Smell, descriptions and spells (WAS: OOP: The people in the promo pics... References: Message-ID: <000501c32057$b42e6990$0bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58428 Rane said: > > Something else I've been wondering about is the fact that there are > very little references to smell in the books. Just off the top of my > head, I think there might be two or three all in all (only when > something really stinks (like the Polyjuice Potion, I think) or when > the characters can only discern something through their sense of > smell (like in CoS where Harry and Ron are led by the Great Hall upon > their arrival and can smell the food). Well, maybe a bit more, but it > won't be many. I doubt it has any meaning, but it just struck me as a > little odd. Most people don't necessarily consciously pay much > attention to smell, but we all use it, and it gives us many clues. (snip) I never even noticed this until you said anything. Maybe JKR is like me and has no sense of smell, and that's why she doesn't think to write about it much. Probably not the case, but it's the first thing I thought of. When I write fic, I rarely utilize this sense either, and that's because, since I can't smell anything unless it gives off an extremely strong odor, I don't tend to think about it. I think about the world in terms of what I can see, hear, taste, and touch, so that is what I normally tend to write about. If I do mention something as giving off an odor, it's mainly because I happen to be thinking it would be appropriate to mention something as having an odor (like knowing someone should be able to smell perfume when kissing because I've read enough books to see that happen, or making more use of a sense of smell when writing from an animal's point of view). Again, I'm not saying that JKR has the same problem, but maybe her sense of smell isn't the greatest, so she doesn't think it's as important to mention smells as she does how someone looks, for instance. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 12:06:02 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:06:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character descriptions (was OoP covers...) References: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20030522104822.0099c960@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <000901c3205a$84b2ed50$0bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58429 GolPlum > On a different level, it's occasionally annoying not to get a good mental > picture of the characters, and the reader is left filling a lot of holes. > Adult characters' ages are a recurring source of debate in HP fandom and > there are very few clues in the text. Only two adult characters are given > any kind of age-related terminology in their descriptions, namely > Dumbledore (whose advanced age is drummed into our heads again and again) > and Lupin, who is simply described as "young" (which becomes a plot point > because we have no other grounds on which to equate him age-wise with > Snape, or indeed James). > Using common sense and a little math, one can deduce around what age Snape and Lupin are. James and Lily finish school when they are 18. Let's say they get married then and immediately start to have a family. She gives birth at age 19. One year later, they are killed. Add 11 years onto that, and Snape and Lupin are 31 at the beginning of PS/SS, which makes them 35 at the beginning of OoP and coincides with JKR's interview where she says that Snape is 35 or 36 years old. Granted, nothing has been stated in canon to say James and Lily immediately married or immediately started having kids, but by speculating this way, one can figure that the youngest they can be is 35. They could've been older than this, but it gives one a starting point. As for Dumbledore, I understand how it is eminently satisfying to have an idea just how long he has been around, but yet I can see why she doesn't feel it that important to tell us. She has already told us that he is one of the oldest wizards around and has been kicking Dark wizard butt since at least 1945. I actually was content knowing Dumbledore was ancient and never really needed to know just how old he was, but that's just me. > Someone who intrigues me in this respect and whose description gives > absolutely no clues, is Karkaroff: he could conceivably be in either > Snape's age group or Dumbeldore's. He and Snape are on first-name terms > (were they at school together?) but then he's particularly informal with > Dumbledore as well (is it only because of his headmaster status?). His > relationships and role in the unfolding plot can be perceived very > differently, depending on who is his contemporary. I won't bother with > explaining those differences, as I think it's pretty obvious. (As a movie > fan, I have a separate, and OT, problem because I can't decide whether my > ideal casting would be Jurgen Prochnow as a Snape contemporary, or Max Von > Sydow as a Dumbledore one). :-) > Karkaroff doesn't necessarily need to be in either age bracket. JKR has said that Snape is 35 or so, and Dumbledore is over 150 years old (can't remember exact age for sure). That is quite a difference. McGonagall has also been said to be 70 or so. Karkaroff could be in this age bracket instead. As for Karkaroff's first name basis with all of these people, there are a few explanations. One, as you said, he was a Headmaster and probably felt he could take that liberty with Albus. Second, in a twisted sense, he used to be a coworker of Snape's, so maybe he felt he could take that liberty with him (and they could have been friends once, for all we know). Third, I think he just likes to call everyone by their first name. Maybe by calling DD Albus, he is getting around having to show him respect while appearing friendly. In other words, I wouldn't look to Karkaroff's propensity at using people's first names as an indicator of age. In my view, Karkaroff might be closer to McGonagall's age than either Snape or DD. I see Lucius Malfoy as being somewhat older than Snape, maybe ten years older. I see Karkaroff being perhaps that much older than Lucius, but still younger than McGonagall. If that helps out any in your imaging/casting decision. > It is in this respect more than perhaps any other that I think that JKR > reveals the "children's book" nature of the HP canon: to a child, "adults" > are one amorphous mass and anyone over the age of 20 is close to past their > prime, and anyone over 40 is simply "old". > Also keep in mind that the narrator of the book is a child. This view may change as the narrator grows older. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From koticzka at wp.pl Thu May 22 10:02:41 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:02:41 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: book 5 summary from B&T catalog Message-ID: <007601c32049$51e46590$5d104cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58430 From: innermurk To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 12:25 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: book 5 summary from B&T catalog >>(...)Harry Potter confronts the unreliability of the very government of the magical world, and the impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts as he enters his fifth year of wizard school. Despite this (or perhaps because of it), Harry finds depth and strength in his friends, beyond what even he knew -- boundless loyalty and unbearable sacrifice." Now, this doesn't seem to be much different from what I've read before at first glance, but that last part gives me chills. And I have to ask, impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts??? Where's Dumbledore!!!??? << ***Koticzka's comment: Checking up some details in GoF I reread Fudge words about discussing with Dumbledore the way of leading the school by Dumbledore (sorry for this style, I just do not want to be misunderstood!). Conclusion: Dumbledore is fired. (I presume him to be killed in some other messages, but firing is not that cruel and we need his voice of wisdom desperately). McGonagall becomes Hedmistress. With all my respect she does not make a brilliant impression - rather slow in decisions, too carefull, a formalist - a perfect non-conscious pawn for ministerial DE's siders. Poor Snape by the way. He is on the cover HP5 :) No doubts! Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Thu May 22 10:00:07 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:00:07 +0200 Subject: St. Mungo's not safe?/Stone defenses/Evil!Molly/Filch and Crouch/Time Travel Message-ID: <005601c32048$f2a4da10$5d104cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58431 A couple of ideas on the variety of subjects - let me begin: SAINT MUNGO'S: sabotage3p3 wrote: <> honeycakehorse03 answered: <> ***Koticzka comments: >From watching TV, and especially political news, I do not share honeycakehorse03's theory. I do suspect Malfoy is trying to establish at least a connection to St. Mungo's. This could be one of gratitude, wanting them to be indebted to him, or financial addiction (wanting to finish an investment that he started), if not having his people on duty. This is always useful, especially when times are so uneasy. Keeping up appearances is only one of the advantages. Lucius Malfoy, being a perfect diplomat, and a Slytherin, would not do a thing without a reason, or more accurately, a couple of really good reasons. But JKR might... STONE DEFENSES: pippin_999 wrote: <> ***Koticzka comments: Of course there was! Would Snape miss this opportunity? Noooo!... That wouldn't be very Snape-ish! Steve wrote about Fluffy: <> Ersatz Harry wrote about killing the Basilisk: <> ***Koticzka comments: I am not sure what you mean, Steve... To be clear, is it that perhaps Fluffy cannot be charmed in another way because he reflects / beats back all charms like some other magical animals? This could be similar to Graphorn or Tebo skin (as described in "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them"). Hope we have a common view. The same about the Basilisk - I am almost sure. innermurk wrote: <> ***Koticzka comments: It would have been easier, as long as the key would surrender to the Summoning Charm, and had not been enchanted aginst it... EVIL!MOLLY: Becky Waldken cannot buy Evil Molly. ***Koticzka comments: Why not? What is missing in the theory? It is perfect. And enjoyable. Well, unlike Eric Oppen, I do not need an explanation why she became a DE (though the one with a bored housewife is also brilliant). Molly as Ever - So - Evil - Really - Ever... Mmmm... Sounds good! Always nagging all of her kids (except Percy) Why not hating them, and her husband? Bad characters aren't only found in the movies (sadly!). And yes, she would really conduct the orchestra of Death Eaters' - no other possibility! :) FILCH AND CROUCH: Maria Kirilenko suggests that Filch and Crouch are related. ***Koticzka suggests more: >From GoF, Ch. 8, the Quidditch World Cup: "Victor Krum was thin, dark and sallow-skinned, with a large curved nose and thick black eyebrows..." Has anyone seen anybody thin and sallow-skinned around Hogwarts? Not tanned and exposed to the sun like Quidditch players? Not a very social person, either, hidden down in the dungeons? TIME TRAVEL: (bringing Koticzka another headache of the day...) ***Koticzka comments: Not that I do not like TT theme but those loops and explanations and so on... Fascinating but tiring. Anyway, Hermione mentions that wizards meet themselves and that it already happened, that they killed their future selves. It is not canon that the Time Turner works forward. When I get back to the past, and unfortunately meet myself, Me-In-The-Past spotting Me-Time-Traveler can kill Me-Time-Traveler which means 'future self'. It is a question of attitude. Or point of view. Literally: what is future, what is past? It reminds me of "Twelve Monkeys" (not sure of the original title) with Bruce Willis... And speaking of movies, anyone for "Matrix Reloaded" with a new cast... starring S. Snape? ; ) I am impressed... yummy! Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Thu May 22 13:09:03 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:09:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] British culture viewed through the Potterverse Message-ID: <60.310a753f.2bfe25ef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58432 Ali: > I never cease to cringe when posters mention Harry's > graduation; British kids don't graduate from school, so if Harry > graduates from Hogwarts that will be another first! I have trouble keeping up with these boards, so I may have missed something somewhere -- if so, please accept my apologies! But if British students don't "graduate," what happens at the end of their schooling? Do they just stop going to school with no "ceremonial ending" to their years of education (those who aren't going on to college, anyway)? I've read all the posts I could find on the British education system, trying to understand it clearly, and this non-graduation thing escaped me somehow. Thanks for clearing it up for me! Lynda * * * "Don't let the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 22 14:26:48 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:26:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner Message-ID: <20030522.093522.-488433.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58433 On Wed, 21 May 2003 22:11:53 -0400 "Jade Rauenzahn" writes: > As for Snape not knowing, I could see him not knowing. McGonagall > was the only teacher who gave any indication that she knew about > Hermione's time turner, and I'd bet that McGonagall knew about it > because she's Dumbledore's second in command. Dumbledore probably > asked for her help to get everything set. Also, she's the one who > hands out the course schedule to the students, so she might be in > charge of student scheduling as well. Also, she's Hermoine's Head of House. I would presume that every student goes to their individual HoH to discuss matters like this and get them set. If Hermoine was in another house, then that HoH would most likely be the one who had set up everything. The HoH would also be the one in the best position to make a yes/no decision, as they know their own students better than the other teachers. (Although I'm not quite sure how, since they don't seem to spend any time in the dorms, at least McGonagall doesn't!) Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From burgess at cynjut.net Thu May 22 14:59:33 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:59:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Heirs of Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff was Re: Why the Potters? In-Reply-To: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> References: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <22310.204.248.21.50.1053615573.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58434 > David Burgess went out on a limb and wrote: > << seem to be in the wrong > houses? Clearly, these two should have been sorted > into Hufflepuff and > Ravenclaw (respectively? I don't have my books handy). Proving once again that if you can make a mistake in a public forum, you certainly will. So, out onto the limb, saw in hand.... I can never keep the traits of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw straight. How's this - Exchange Hufflepuff for Ravenclaw and vice versa. Once you've done that, you can still ignore the whole thing - it's just me thinking out loud. > > > > << pureblood family that > could easily go back to a certain Miss Ravenclaw) is > the heir of that > bloodline. I'm still a little how Hermione ended up > here (coming from a > Muggle family) but it does seem to follow that she's > either the heir, or > the image of, Miss Hufflepuff.>>> > > And now me, that is Odile, peers up from the the > bottom of the tree to write: > > Er, how is that you came to believe that Ron is the > possible heir of Ravenclaw? And that Hermione is the > heir of Helga Hufflepuff? Their first initials? > <--not to be snerky, honest! I guessed. I didn't have the books handy, and didn't have the resources available to check at that moment: Murphy's law. > > I ask because, according to the hypothesis?- > hypothosis?- er, *theory* of the whole heir issue, > Harry Potter may be Godric Gryffindor's heir because > GG and HP share similar traits (bravery, daring, > etc.); just as Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort is Salazar > Slytherin's heir (cunning, general nastiness, etc.) > > Ravenclaws are the intellectuals - the air signs, if > you follow the astrological association; just as > Hufflepuffs are the earth signs: loyal, steadfast, > "down to earth." (Gryffs would be the fire signs & > Slyths the water signs, to finish the thought.) > Hermione is certainly an intellectual. She is educated and smart (I differentiate the same way I do for "stupid" and "ignorant"). We've seen enough of Ron to see that, while he is as loyal and down to earth, bravery isn't actually his strong suit. He's not craven, by amy means, but his fears do get in the way sometimes. The one thing about this heir theory that I'm shaky on is how Hermione (from an apparently completely Muggle lineage) manages to be the "heir" of Ravenclaw. Even I'm interested to see how I resolve that one. :-) > So, I am interested to know how you came to think of > Ron as Ravenclaw's heir when he is not exactly a star > pupil and Hermione as Hufflepuff's heir when, although > she is indeed loyal, she is also brave and daring > enough for Gryffindor. > I don't see Hermione's actions as brave and daring as much as I see them as the logical response to a given situation. She analyzes the situations and proceeds with the clearest course of action, in the understanding that she is ready to roll. While that certainly takes courage, it takes far more trust in one's intellect. Ron, on the other hand, is much more emotional and much less logical. We see it over and over again - The Devil's Snare is the example that immediately comes to mind. Ron isn't brave, but will 'body guard' Harry and Hermione to a fault ("eat slugs" is the best example I have right now). Ron's whole family seems to be like this; even Jinny Weasley is like this - she stands up to Draco in Flourish and Blotts the second or third time we see her in the series. The one place that I really see Ron shining is his grasp of strategy. (Movie contamination possible here) Ron spends most of SS/PS trying to teach Harry Wizards chess. We've seen that Harry is a quick study, and in the challenges, he sees what is going to happen before the end of the chess game. Ron probably knew quite a while before Harry did, but Harry was able to see what was going to happen in the next couple of moves once Ron prodded him. My background is professional military, and one of the things that has I've noticed over time is that the most effective leaders rely on great strategists to come up with their plans, which the leader implements. I see Ron and Harry's relationship evolving the same way. With one or two exceptions, the great Generals have relied on great planners to come up with truly great solutions to tactical and strategic problems. Great plans rely on great intelligence. Hermione is a great correlator of facts and information, and provides the intell the rest of the group needs to make good decisions. So, once again, I ask "Are Ron and Hermione in the right houses?" Now that we have that little bit of house name confusion out of the way, the real question still stands. Ron is a terrific lieutenant, but isn't the born leader that Harry is. I still see Ron and Hermione as being in the "wrong" houses (as far as the traits of the houses go). There are two possible canonical explanations, as far as I'm concerned. The first is the simple one - the Sorting Hat doesn't actually care much about which house you go into an selects the students' houses pretty much capriciously. It might have a vague idea about what you're like, but it's more interesting in sorting 35 students into each house every year. The second (much more palatable, I assure you) is that the Hat is actually up on current events and knows what's going on. It doesn't sort the houses based on the students' abilities, but on the "best mix" to protect the school, and by extension, the WW. If this was true, then each of the non-Slytherin houses would have a mix of what we would call "true Ravenclaws, etc.". We've seen this before, in the Pettigrew fiasco from James and Lily's time at Hogwarts. Of course, the real reason (the literary craft reason) is that Harry needs a good Hufflpuff and Ravenclaw to make the adventures work, and it's just too hard to get this from the houses they belong in. -- Dave Burgess Bellevue, NE 68123 From koticzka at wp.pl Thu May 22 10:02:09 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:02:09 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's whose heir or Lily was here / Re: Why the Potters Message-ID: <007501c32049$4d780ac0$5d104cd5@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58435 It becomes too complicated for me, so "let's pensive" I have a couple of days break, so perhaps there is NOTHING new, but the seventh seal. On the very end ;) No cannons, just logical thinking (more or less, stress on 'less') and guesses: Whom is Voldie looking for? I'd rather bet Harry - considering Harry's memories under influence of dementor's presence. Why is Lily being asked to move aside? What is this favour for? For Voldie's servant? Gim'me a break, fight, spells in the air and Graet Voldemort is thinking of a servant of his? Even presuming my very favourite Snape being his right hand (and forgeting I hate the theory of Snape attracted by Lily) - I do not believe anything like this. Or perhaps Harry was not that important or was underestimated (which might be Voldie's style, I possibly could agree; perhaps). I would rather consider Lilly's eyes and why is it so important that Harry's are the same. Could Lilly be Slytherin descendant as a Muggle born? Unlikly, but not impossible. According to Darrin's theories that heir does not equal descendant, she may be a chosen one, however little sense it makes. By the way - being more evil (even more???) by killing Harry first, and his mother afterwards - oh, it so much trouble for poor Voldie. Would he really care? I duobt it. If so, he would use Crutiatus (I just LUV this one)to make her more painful or Imperio - I suppose Darrin suggested it? If someone else - my apologies, I do not remember and I am not even trying to find that! Sniping mentioned Petunia - well she alived cannot be used as a prove that Lilly is NOT descendant of one of the Four Founders, because Petunia is a muggle or at least a Squib and as such is not taken under consideration to be a danger for V. Was Lily Voldie's granddaughter? As a Muggleborn? Or adopted child? OK - just joking, feel free to consider (I just love Molly the Evil!). Not granddaughter in my opinion, as Voldie would not have enough time to take care of anything else but himself and his career, power and victory in the battle to reign - but why not a cousin? And at last Voldie did have a father (even if becoming a god). I fully agree with vivamus42 - Lily would not attack Voldie - but why? The strengh of the Dark wizard cannot be the only answer. Wouldn't one try to fight anyway having irrational hope for wining? Neither Voldie wants to attack Lily unless it was her CHOICE to be attacked. Strange, indeed. It reminds me again stories of people who agreed to join prisoners resigning of their privileges - like German during the IInd World War or Russians after WW IInd. Lily DE??? I like that idea however do not consider it true. Again I cannot tell why. I do not agree with Darrin that Voldie did not try hard to spare Lily. As for Voldie, calling twice is almost too much! And at least suspected, what the reason was. Voldie's only passion is probably the power to reign the world (and his mother which he has some sentiment for, however it is not so certain), so fear for the child is quite an abstract for this egoistic and egocentric character. Something one can observe but do not trtibute to inteligent individuals - like him (it is ironic, spare your comments, guys!) (and girls) Life debt among Lily and Voldie? Hm, I do not like it, do not know why. Perhaps because I do not believe that anything like this could attach Voldie. As utter evil, she would neither obey such debt, nor I believe him to surrender any charm like this. Why Lily did not fight? a) because Voldie is a cousin (to kill a relative is not polite!) b) to sacrifice herself and make the ancient magic work (Darrin's theory which is more and more convincing for me, too) c) I am very sorry, women, but I do not credit mothers with a very high intelligence in common sense - "J'accuse!" - they acts are besed on instincts and towarded to the childs good but it does not mean that they are WISE. So Lily could use argumenst which seemed persuasive to her at the moment - a normal, common person would rather have mercy in front of an innocent sweet child and if forced to kill (by his own instinct or whatever reason) - would spare the child which is the most beautiful and unusual of all children of eternity. OK, when I already insulted all mothers of the world it does not matter that I add - the common logic, not very sophisticated one - does not work in mothers' system of thinking. Not in situation af a sudden danger, eventually. OK. Use Crutiatus on me, but read first, when you started. No more about mothers intelligence ;) I exagerate to show of and I do hope to ghet mad about my heir one day. I would not mind if I had such a reason as Harry (would his name be Severus???). Still - different logic sustained but passive Lily to fullfill the magic (Darrin's) is preferable! Some pepople were wandering whether it is possible that there is only one heir left. Yes, surely it is. Not only because the title is inherited by the oldest in the branch, but also because branches dissapear - die. Or you have to presume that every wizard has children (at least one!). Male or female... Do they? All of them? No cannon that not, well even Snape could possibly be a father. Such accidents do happen... ;) But there might be some without descendants, cannot they? Female descendant would be good enough for two reasons: when lack a man, woman would do (compare: Elisabeth I); second reason if you need more - there is at least one religion, where female ancestor is more important - judaism. You are a Jew when you are born from Jewish mother. OK, I do not suppose Voldie being a Jew or JKR using this way of thinking in her books. But there is a precedent. Well, we can always try to walk Voldie's shoes - everyone's tends to be sentimental in particular circumstances... Muggleborn likes Muggleborn??? EEp, forget it. Another point which seems to be important - if Voldemort is the heir of Slytherin, it was rather after mother (on the distaff side?). James Potter was killed - not without the reason. I would agree him to be a Gryffindor heir (significant that they were hiding in Godric's Hollow) or descendant (forgive me for not repeating traces and indications leading to that, it has been discussed so many times in so many threads). Still they protected Harry more than themselves. It would not seem so strange, I suppose that all loving parents should behave like this. However the dialogue (Harry's memories again) would suggest that evyrobody is actually conscious that the child is the reason of Voldie's visit. As the descendant or heir of GG should not Harry be suggested Gryffindor House instead of Slytherin (which Sorting Hat seemed to be insisted)? Blood and his personality (hm...? hm-hm! - I can almost hear Darrin's comment...) should mean more than anything Voldie gave him during the first attack, save the scarf. Being Parselmouth (again ac. to Darrin Burnett) could be another indication, however I would lay it to the part of Voldie's pawer given to Harry during first confrontation. Opening the Chamber of Secrets might be Lord Voldemort's/Tom Riddle's act (if could be done by this kind of a ghost or whatever you name the creature of the Diary) and once opened - stood opened so Harry could only have access to it - without openning. Still, there's a laegend that it can be openned only by the heir of S., so most probably by a Parselmouth person. Basilisk would listen only the heir but it is just a part of the same legend, which could be considered to be true or not. Legends - especially in the Wizard World must be - in my opinion - something more than in Muggle World, using our Muggle logic, so Riddle/Voldie openes th Chamber and handles Basilisk. Harry does not. Oops, this argument works against my theory - but all evedeences assuring what's below would wake suspections, would they not ? Cannot resist as Patricia Bullington-McGuire has given me an opportunity at last to comment her Lem's quote! >>I have trouble seeing why anyone would care whether their great-great-great^x-grandfathers were enemies 1000+ years ago.<< Lem would probably not agree! Perhaps 1000 years is a lot for a Muggle leaving sometimes about 60, but wizards have longer lives, so some memories may be more vivid. And there are individuals and whole nationes, where conlflicts which should have been forgotten are not only still alived but also are being the motives of most actions undertaken against the others or animosity between nations, families. Why do I mention Lem? Because of soem significant national features, traditions and stories (funny and true ones). And also because of the history and political and huuman relations. Generaly I could call stereotypes about Ukrainians, Russians, Germans and Poles in the middle (not necessarily as victims!). More details on request, if needed! Inhere the battle is about power, heritage and reigning. All for one, one for all. Blood and lineage are only the pretext to gain everything. All above would indicate that Harry is Gryffindor after father and Slytherin after mother... Getting to the *point*: 1. There is no *point*. Could I possibly use Time Turner going aginst theories forward time and read HP5, 6 and 7? 2. The Potters did not fight seriously, because they were consious Voldie was too strong. James Potter believed in delaying Voldie and letting Lilly escape with a child. 3. I believe Lily was related to Voldie, as his cousin she was asked to move aside, no need to kill a relative not being GG's related. Even if she was Voldie's relative on father's side, it is always a relative and as such might be usuful. (Wich works both side Lilly to Voldie and backward) But not that much not to be removed when disturbing, let us not be too meticulous. To match my plot she must have been related by Voldi's mother's side, otherwise I doubt she is Slytherin's descendant. On the other hand would it be really useless to eliminate her as a potential future competitor's mother? If she was said to be not neccessary to be killed, she must have been no danger to Voldie, which means, she is none of Four Founders descendant in streight lineage. 4. James Potter had to be eliminated as GG's descendant. 5. Harry was the main Voldie's aim...? Or equal to his father...? Or was James killed just by the way and just in case of the will to have more GG's heirs in future? I'm getting confused at this point. Accident does not work for me here, Voldie came there for his purpose, it is clear. 6. According to above - Harry is GG's AND NOT SS's descendant - but even if he was - why the Sorting Hat wanted him in Slytherin House??? 7. And what, the hell, about the two left Founders? Went on holidays??? Or could Harry be a heir of all Four Founders??? Or even worse - Merlin himself?!!!! I am working on the text ordered by a very religious man, based on The Bible. I do not like writing it, so I am having the rest playing with Potterworld. As Dumbledore reminds me Jesus with his very lamb-mild attitude sometimes (yet I discussed his attitude in the different light previously and I sustain it), I went forward. There is seven books, of course, as there is seven classes (my educational system I went through was different - 8 classes of primary school, so 7 seems wire). An obvious fight of good and evil. Voldie with his rising of dead and will of power pushes me further. Perhaps killing Harry was a part of ritual or - following a prophecy - only a part of extermination of potential future executioner? Like killing children in the hunt for a prophet? If the subject of prediction is conserned - the Potters did leave money to their son. Perhaps James was really of the rich family, but quoting tepmurt9981 and JKR: >>Also, in PP/SS Hagrid says something along the lines of (sorry, book is once again packed), "you didn't think that they'd leave you without any money, did you?"<< My books are not packed yet, I will pack them at the very last moment, but it is just a digression. Accuse me of axageration and overinterpretation (is it a new word I have created???) but it does sound as if they - parents - had been preparing for a disaster. So they might have... known. Obviously they still tried and do their best. As I am not an expert in the subject of the Bible, my conjectures are very loose and not precisious. Please, treat it as an invitation for further discussion (perhaps it will also help me in my other work!) !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless: !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Assumption: One becomes a true Gryffindor by choices. Being a heir of Slytherin would mean blood connection (Salazar Slytherin's reluctance against non-pure-bloods). What if James is really not Gryffindor? He might be Slytherin. A Death Eater. For two alternative reasons: one - a spy, who has accorded to sacrifice himself and wear the Dark Mark. Or - second - Dark Wizard who started to wear Big Glasses to see the proper path (not because of Lily, because Voldie would not be that eager to spare her). Whatever the reason was, James might had to be killed as a traitor of Voldie's crowd, which does not explain why Harry was targeted... James-the-Slytherin would explain why Harry had been suggested to join Slytherin House. I do not know what to do about Lily ("step aside, girl"). I will work my new thoery out by June the 21st, hopefully! ;) OK. I give up. Perhaps Harry IS Voldie's twin. "Yes... you have a twin sis... brother I mean. And do not uderestimate the Dark Side of the Power". Anything will do during the night between renovation and moving sitting an packages and suitcases (almost), feeling every muscle and dreaming of doing nothing but reading marvelous innovative theories such as Evil!Molly which is not impossible either. And I vote - let's ban Time Traveling unless it is used for getting further parts of "Harry Potter and Yahoo Groups" or I get addicted to Aspirine for my head-aches! ;) Koticzka who is not Sybill Trelawney for sure but trusts her intuition which is as eager to read HP5 as Koticzka herself. How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherinemck at hotmail.com Thu May 22 14:18:40 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:18:40 -0000 Subject: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: <60.310a753f.2bfe25ef@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > Ali: > > > I never cease to cringe when posters mention Harry's > > graduation; British kids don't graduate from school, so if Harry > > graduates from Hogwarts that will be another first! > Me: Joining you in cringe. Lynda then responded: > I have trouble keeping up with these boards, so I may have missed something > somewhere -- if so, please accept my apologies! But if British students don't > "graduate," what happens at the end of their schooling? Do they just stop > going to school with no "ceremonial ending" to their years of education (those > who aren't going on to college, anyway)? I've read all the posts I could find > on the British education system, trying to understand it clearly, and this > non-graduation thing escaped me somehow. Thanks for clearing it up for me! Me again: Yes, we just stop going to school. At the end of the fifth year, we have GCSEs (OWLs). Pupils finish the course then go away on study leave, ie. work at home, returning to take the exams on odd mornings and afternoons. Then you either don?t come back or you turn up for the 6th Form 9 (two years), at the end of which you finish the course, go on study leave and take A-levels (NEWTs), coming in to school on odd mornings and afternoons to take your exams. There?s no Graduation ceremony at all, but pupils who?ve taken these fate-determining exams all turn up at school, get their little envelope, look at the notice board, and go to the pub to celebrate or mourn. Some schools might have a party, I suppose, at the end of the summer term, but most don?t. Everyone is too traumatised. So Harry is highly unlikely to graduate from Hogwarts. We do graduate at the end of university, in very heavy silk/wool gown and wool/silk.fur hoods (the USA school graduations I?ve seen on USA TV programmes seem to use artificial silk?), and often bits of latin and trumpets. If you?re really lucky, you get to do it in a cathedral. Everyone worries about tripping over their gown and their mortar board falling off. All the boys borrow kirby grips off the girls. It is tricky, reading about almost-but-not-quiet-the-same cultures. I had always wondered about the?base? systme, until it was explained on the boards! Catherine McK From petalla at express56.com Thu May 22 15:21:08 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:21:08 -0000 Subject: Character descriptions (was OoP covers...) In-Reply-To: <000901c3205a$84b2ed50$0bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58437 > Also keep in mind that the narrator of the book is a child. This view may > change as the narrator grows older. > > Kelly Grosskreutz > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova Um???? The narrator is a child? As far as I know, the narrator is an unknown. The narration is written in the third person, and is speaking in the present. The narator seems to know Harry's thoughts, but no one elses, however is present for most conversations (even with the adults). We have no information on the narrator at all, never mind guessing that it is a child. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu May 22 15:21:28 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:21:28 -0000 Subject: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: <20030521195722.6292.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > > brassgryphon and vavamus42 wrote: > > > > Has anyone noticed that there are 24 hours missing from the time > > Hagrid picked up Harry and the time he delivered him to the > Dursleys'? > > > > > > What do you suppose happened during that time? > > > > > > My guess is that Dumbledore put together the means "by use of an > > ancient magic" to protect Harry at his relatives' home, and to set > up > > Arabella Figg as Harry's Secret Keeper with the Fidelius charm. > ME[Huggs Becky]: I partially agree though that there certainly was some sort of magickal protection afforded that place. In fact, Cannon verifies that Voldemort cannot touch Harry there. [...] Also, whatever protection Harry is afforded there is not necessarily the fidelius charm. There must be other ways of which we have heard nothing about so far that protected Harry. Myself, I think it probably was and Ms. Figg who Voldemort must not be aware of is the secret holder. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Annemehr: Huggs Becky, do I understand you correctly, are you saying that *Mrs. Figg* is the one whose location is being kept secret by the Fidelius Charm? It makes a lot of sense, but there is a catch. Say Harry is placed at the Dursleys' after Dumbledore has taken a day to set up certain very effective protections for him. One of these protections involves Arabella Figg to help watch over him, which is why she's living nearby (a point you brought up that I snipped). However, Arabella Figg is there *secretly,* unknown to most of the wizarding world (except Dumbledore, who is the Secret-Keeper -- the secret being Figg's location). This would explain why AF had to suffer through a broken leg without magical healing. I like it! BUT the catch is, that Dumbledore has sent Sirius, at the end of GoF, to contact Arabella Figg. Obviously, Dumbledore had to have told Sirius earlier where to find her, so if it *was* a secret, it isn't anymore. Perhaps, now that so much has changed, her presence can no longer be a secret from Dumbledore's crowd, and anyway, that doesn't necessarily mean that any Dark wizards have any idea she's there. I still think it works. Annemehr who fully expects the Fidelius Charm to come into the story again somewhere... From hp_lexicon at yahoo.com Thu May 22 15:32:05 2003 From: hp_lexicon at yahoo.com (hp_lexicon) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:32:05 -0000 Subject: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherinemckiernan" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > > Ali: > > > > somewhere -- if so, please accept my apologies! But if British > students don't > > "graduate," what happens at the end of their schooling? Do they > just stop > > going to school with no "ceremonial ending" to their years of > education (those > > who aren't going on to college, anyway)? There is a very interesting and comprehensive essay about this on the Harry Potter Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizardworld/essays/essay-british- schooling.html It's a good indoctrination into not only British schooling, but more specifically into the way British schools operating in the 1970s, when Rowling attended them. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 15:46:20 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030522154620.9509.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58440 Lee wrote: Becky Walkden wrote: In fact, I'm not sure that McDougall is part of the anti-Voldemort group at all. She seems left out of anything important. Huggs Becky now me: I agree with everything else you mentioned, however i would think it almost certain that she would be directly involved within the anti-voldemort resistance. she will follow DD regarless of her own reservations becuase she respects and understand that DD does not act without reason. Besides the point i think most would agree that she is a most able witch, although she has not yet really used any real magical ability I think her abilities and importance will become apparent in OOP and beyond. lee ME: Oh I agree with you totally about McDougall, Lee. She is both trustworthy and capable and a very good person. But for whatever reason, she still seems to be on the outside of "what's happening" and not part of Dumbledore's "inner circle". Well that's what it looks like, but like everything else, we'll find out soon enough! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From innermurk at catlover.com Thu May 22 16:35:32 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:35:32 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > Maybe I need to take a writing class because I can't seem to get > my point across here. I keep leaving out key points. *sigh* Ok. Here > we go. Snape's irrationality during the whole sequence of events is > an important part of my theory. If, as I now believe, Snape already > knew about Hermione using the time turner for her classes, that > doesn't need to even figure in his behavior during this crisis(for > lack of a better word). > I am contending that he figured out about Hermione and her earlier > use of the TT sometime during the course of the school year, not > that night. He was most decidedly irrational both in the shreiking > shack and after Black's escape and IMHO the effect was that all his > rationalization skills and logic had flown out the window. The TT > never even occured to him because he wasn't rational enough to think > anything through. He realized the TT use and Dumbledore's > involvement at virtually the same instant. Since he didn't know the > *how* until the same time that he discerned Dumbledore's involvement > he had a quick decision to make. Innermurk replies: Oh, I think you're clear Linda. We just disagree on the subject :) I don't think that Snape's loyalty to DD stretches enough to cover HH or especially Sirius. And you do. I don't think that he knew about the TT because very few people did. I think McGonagall, Dumbledore, and Hermione were the only ones who did. Otherwise, I think that Hermione wouldn't have been half as stressed out that year. Harry and Ron notice her schedule because they're close to her, but no one else in their common room, or their year seem to think anything of her being busy, and let's face it, she usually did have her nose in a book. The other teachers wouldn't have necessarily been informed about it, and the suggestion that they would've figured it out by the students talking wouldn't hold water if the students don't know. (I don't think they do, because she didn't even tell Harry or Ron) They can't talk about what they don't know. If the staff talked to each other, it wouldn't necessarily ever come up that she was in their classes either (I work in a school and teachers *rarely* discuss their students on their free time, there's much more interesting conversations to be had and after a whole day interacting with kids, they like adult conversation anyway) Anyway, Snape's always had a quick mind and been able to put two and two together. You're starting off by arguing that he did just this to figure out that Hermione had the TT when he never had reason to suspect this in the first place. Then we he *does* have reason to suspect a TT use, he forgets all about it, especially when so much is at stake for him? I don't see it happening at all. No, I think he would've ousted Harry in a second if he'd known about the TT. But he *didn't* know, and he *couldn't* explain how Harry had done anything and he *knew* that DD knew. Then he decided to keep his mouth shut about DD, and cut his losses for the evening. I *do* believe that DD went and had a chat with him later. He needs Snape too much to let him stew in that particular phase of hatred for long. Especially if Sirius was going to have to be working together with him. That's why he reacted in GOF as if he were informed and unsurprised, because he *was* informed. But *after* the events at the end of POA. The remainder of Linda's post: Also, canon only says that > Snape "stared" at everyone in turn. There is no mention of what kind > of look he was giving them. Maybe he was staring at both DUmbledore > and Fudge trying to decide with which one he was going to ally > himself with. I see this as a major point in the developement of > Snape's character developement. He had to decide publically where > his loyalties lay and kept his loyalties with Dumbledore, despite > his animosity toward HH. > Actually canon states thus (US PB POA pg 420) "Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape whirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward." If someone gives me a seething stare, I'd consider it a poisonous look, but that's just me. Innermurk From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 22 16:32:14 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:32:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two questions on the invisibility cloak Message-ID: <20030522.114718.-635885.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58442 On Tue, 20 May 2003 14:11:04 -0000 "Ersatz Harry" writes: > Second question: When Ron first sees the cloak, he notes that it > is both "really rare" and "really valuable". Offhand, the only other > person I can think of who has one is young Barty Crouch. Does the > rareness of the cloak have some larger significance? I don't think so. I think that Invisibility Cloaks are probably just rare and valuable because the magic that has to go into them is really hard and not many people can do it and make the Cloaks. Kind of like animagic - can you imagine how "rare and valuable" an Animagic Cloak would be? I think it's the same for invisibility. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From catherinemck at hotmail.com Thu May 22 15:30:09 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:30:09 -0000 Subject: St. Mungo's not safe?/Stone defenses/Evil!Molly/Filch and Crouch/Time Travel In-Reply-To: <005601c32048$f2a4da10$5d104cd5@ola> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Koticzka" wrote: > A couple of ideas on the variety of subjects - let me begin: Thus wrote Koticzka: > > EVIL!MOLLY: > > Becky Waldken cannot buy Evil Molly. > > ***Koticzka comments: Why not? What is missing in the theory? It is perfect. > And enjoyable. Well, unlike Eric Oppen, I do not need an explanation why she > became a DE (though the one with a bored housewife is also brilliant). > Molly as Ever - So - Evil - Really - Ever... Mmmm... Sounds good! Always > nagging all of her kids (except Percy) Why not hating them, and her husband? > Bad characters aren't only found in the movies (sadly!). And yes, she would > really conduct the orchestra of Death Eaters' - no other possibility! :) Oh, I?m so glad people like Evil Molly. I even found a bit of GoF canon yesterday to back up my answer to Barty Crouch?s confession, when Fudge says that Barty could have answered as he did because as a lunatic he believed he was acting for Voldemort, even though he wasn?t. So Veritaserum does work on what an individual believes, not what is necessarily true. So as long as Crouch wasn?t consciously aware he was working for Mol it could be okay. (I wonder what would happen if Veritaserum were used on someone under Imperius?) Tom pondered the issue of Molly?s Evil and wrote: To read between the lines, she wouldn't be able to get to the graveyard if she was on the Hogwarts grounds, because she couldn't apparate from Hogwarts - so, if she were a Death Eater (at present) then she'd have to sneak away from both her seat at the tournament, AND Bill, unless he was a Death Eater too and left with her. This is because as far as we know, the Death Eaters *apparated* to the graveyard. And so, she couldn't really apparate. And neither could Fudge or Bagman, being judges (and accounted for) at the tournament. Me again: Fair point about Fudge, never gone for FIE myself (he?s just a snivelling coward, which is almost as bad), but it doesn?t hold for Molly. She doesn?t need to go to the graveyard, if Voldemort knows she has a good reason to stay away. There are gaps in the circle upon which he doesn?t comment. If she were at Hogwarts and doing nefarious things with his knowledge, her non-appearance at the graveyard would not be a problem. LV doesn?t mention it to the Des because he?s a bit secretive, knowing they are not entirely to be trusted. And maybe because he doesn?t want Lucius to whinge about the Weasleys again. Catherine McK From monkshoodgardens at cox.net Thu May 22 15:30:46 2003 From: monkshoodgardens at cox.net (monkshoodgardens at cox.net) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:30:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Foreign" students at Hogwarts References: <00f501c32033$2805de40$08570043@hppav> Message-ID: <012d01c32077$1dfb2060$6601a8c0@Cx313818a> No: HPFGUIDX 58444 Eric says: Actually, both Cho Chang and the Patil sisters could be as British, legally at least, as Harry himself or HM the Queen. (Who, let us not forget, is mostly German by ancestry). There are _lots_ of British subjects and residents of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi origins or ancestry; they range from people fresh off the boat to people who, except for their darker skins and last names, are just like the neighbors in almost every way. I don't think East Asians, such as Cho Chang, would be _as_ common as they are in, say, the Western US or Western Canada, but they are far from unknown. Now,Me..(Macha): I read in an interview once not too terribly long ago (cannot locate it, sorry) that JKR has stated that Cho is actually Korean...this information really stuck with me because I, like many, thought she was of Chinese heritage although have always imagined her to be British....it'll be interesting to (possibly) find out as the books progress. Macha (Mama to two Asian daughters - one from China and one from VietNam) Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Thu May 22 17:10:49 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:10:49 EDT Subject: OOP: The people in the promo pics of OOtP Message-ID: <160.20bc111d.2bfe5e99@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58445 Morgan D muses: << I wonder why. JKR seldom (never?) offers us much detailing in her character descriptions. She picks five or six adjectives to each character and keeps repeating them over and over. >> She learned this trick from a master. Or rather, a school of masters. It's the same sort of "hands off" detatchment in the definition of characters, or more properly, character "types" that was one of the cornerstones to the classic "detective story" as exemplified in the work of Agatha Christe and others of her era. By letting the reader fill in the blanks themselves, the author has a greater leeway in directing the plot in whatever direction s/he wants it to go. It is a clever device, but one that has fallen a bit out of favor. Possibly because it tends to render the plot into an intelectual exercise rather than to foster emotional connection to the characters as people one choses to "know". In the hands of most detective story writers it tended towards the sterile. Rowling has managed to balence it at a point much closer to a middle ground, but the reader is still invited to fill in the blanks himself. This also allows the various character (types) to change position and perform necessary functions "because the author says so" much more smoothly than in a more "character-driven" construction. In an Agatha Christie mystery, *anyone* could hve been the murderer. NO ONE was exempt. (A rarity. In most mystery writer's hands there were usually exceptions. The butler never actually did it. The young lovers were *always* innocent. This was not the case with Christie.) Rowling has managed to stake out this particular territory for her own as well. -JOdel From jdu at mail2.gcnet.net Thu May 22 17:14:01 2003 From: jdu at mail2.gcnet.net (jillutterback) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:14:01 -0000 Subject: Two questions on the invisibility cloak In-Reply-To: <20030522.114718.-635885.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > I don't think so. I think that Invisibility Cloaks are probably just rare and valuable because the magic that has to go into them is really hard and not many people can do it and make the Cloaks. Kind of like animagic - can you imagine how "rare and valuable" an Animagic Cloak would be? I think it's the same for invisibility. In FBAWTFT, there is a description of the Demiguise, and here are parts of it: "The Demiguise is found in the Far East, though only with great difficulty, for this beast is able to make itself invisible when threatened, and can be seen only by wizards skilled in its capture." and "Demiguise pelts are highly valued as the hair may be spun into Invisibility Cloaks." So, yes, Invisibility cloaks are rare and valuable, but mainly because of the difficulty in getting the materials to make them. Jill New member who really should be working right now From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 22 17:49:08 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:49:08 -0000 Subject: Who's whose heir or Lily was here / Re: Why the Potters In-Reply-To: <007501c32049$4d780ac0$5d104cd5@ola> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58447 Koticzka wrote: > I do not agree with Darrin that Voldie did not try hard to spare Lily. As > for Voldie, calling twice is almost too much! And at least suspected, what > the reason was. Voldie's only passion is probably the power to reign the > world (and his mother which he has some sentiment for, however it is not so > certain), so fear for the child is quite an abstract for this egoistic and > egocentric character. Something one can observe but do not trtibute to > inteligent individuals - like him (it is ironic, spare your comments, guys!) > (and girls) Again, giving two warnings and then blasting away with a fatal spell really does not strike me as "I don't want to kill her." There were about 1,000 different things he could have done to spare her if he didn't want her killed. Now, it may very well be, "I've got no quarrel with you, silly girl, so get out of the way," but I reject the idea that Lily was so important that he tried to spare her. And remember, canon tells us that V-Mort tells Harry, "she NEEDN'T have died" not, "I didn't want her to die." It really just reads to me that Lily was beneath V-Mort's notice. That would fit with his racism against Muggle-borns, his contempt for "weaker" wizards and what I still think is a touch of sexism. > 6. According to above - Harry is GG's AND NOT SS's descendant - but even if he was - why the Sorting Hat wanted him in Slytherin House??? We don't know that the Sorting Hat WANTED Harry in Slytherin. It suggested to Harry that he would make a good Slytherin. It really did give Harry the choice. Once he said "not Slytherin," the hat said, "OK." If the Hat WANTED Harry in Slytherin, one would think Harry would be in Slytherin now. I don't know who that hat is working for, but since it is apparently lugging around Godric's sword, I'm not entirely sure it is solely working as a neutral. From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu May 22 18:38:12 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:38:12 -0000 Subject: Two questions on the invisibility cloak In-Reply-To: <20030522.114718.-635885.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58448 "Ersatz Harry" writes: Second question: When Ron first sees the cloak, he notes that it is both "really rare" and "really valuable". Offhand, the only other person I can think of who has one is young Barty Crouch. Does the rareness of the cloak have some larger significance? Melanie L Ellis wrote: I don't think so. I think that Invisibility Cloaks are probably just rare and valuable because the magic that has to go into them is really hard and not many people can do it and make the Cloaks. Kind of like animagic - can you imagine how "rare and valuable" an Animagic Cloak would be? I think it's the same for invisibility. Me: Apropos of this subject, after reading the above, it occurred to me that something wasn't spelled out explicitly when Barty, Jr. was telling his tale to Dumbledore et al under the influence of Snape's Veritaserum. One might wonder how an Auror like Moody could have been surprised by Crouch, when he was so paranoid that his very dust bins were part of his defense. The answer is, of course, that Moody WASN'T surprised; he knew very well that someone was trying to attack him, and might even have recognized his attacker, although recognizing young Crouch might have made him doubt his sanity, since everyone thought he was dead. The reason why the real Moody knew that someone was trying to break into his house, in addition to his dark detectors going off, was that he could see through Invisibility Cloaks! Young Barty would have no way of knowing this, of course, and probably thought that when he went to Moody's house to execute the switch, wearing the Cloak, that he would be able to sneak up on Moody without a problem. So, Moody puts up a fight, being able to see his attacker without any problem, but Crouch still prevails and is able, in the guise of Moody, to greet Arthur Weasley and the other Ministry folks when they show up to investigate the ruckus. One slightly hard to believe element in this scenario is that I find it a bit implausible that Crouch knew about the magical trunk ahead of time, which provides a VERY convenient method for him to both hide Moody's body and have it nearby all during his time at Hogwarts, so that he can continue to make the Polyjuice Potion, but I suppose I can overlook that. (It's also unlikely that he went to Moody's house ahead of time to investigate, since Moody could see through Crouch's cloak and had the hair-trigger dark detectors.) This little event also gives Crouch another advantage: he knows that with Moody's magical eye at his disposal, he can see through any other Invisibility Cloaks that might be about, which just happens to be how Harry moves about the school at night! As Crouch has to be even MORE paranoid than Moody to avoid detection, this means that it is less likely that he can be ambushed by anyone. I believe that is really the purpose of both Crouch and Harry having Invisibility Cloaks, and it is another neat way of JKR giving her hero and villain similar attributes (and taking away one of Harry's advantages--invisibility). Of course, if Crouch, Sr. hadn't released his son from prison, none of this might have happened, and if Arthur Weasley and the other folks from the Ministry hadn't been so blase when they showed up at Moody's, Crouch never would have been able to pull off a ten-month impersonation of a former Auror without anyone being the wiser until Dumbledore finally notices something a bit off about him after the Third Task. Frankly, when he arrived at the house, Arthur probably should have started quizzing Crouch to test him and make sure he was who he seemed to be. (Although if he had, there would have been no fourth book. ) In books 5, 6 and 7, I wouldn't be surprised if Ministry officials became far more suspicious of everyone, which could start to make the books feel ripped from the headlines. (When JKR planned her story arc, I doubt that she could have foreseen the twisted future path of world politics.) Of course, the Ministry would probably first have to acknowledge that Voldemort is back before we start reading about extreme security precautions in the wizarding world. I'll be interested to find out about that on June 21. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 22 18:39:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:39:05 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner In-Reply-To: <200305211455.UAA03798@WS0005.indiatimes.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anujasathe" wrote: > > You can't really argue that the actual rule is: You must not be seen by your own selves. [page 288 : Dumbledore in the hospital wing - "But remember this both of you.You must not be seen.....you know the law -... you- must- not -be -seen"] This certainly makes it clear that you can't be sen by anyone at all! ...edited... > > Doesn't it seem impossible that Hermione could not be seen by anybody and yet interact with both students and teachers?How is she doing it? > > > Beaky bboy_mn: You need to remember that Dumbledore is explaining this to Hermione who has already had a detailed explaination of the rules, regulations, and dangers surrounding the use of the Time Turner. So there is no need or time for Dumbledore to go into every precise detail again. When Dumbledore says, " ...you know the law ... you must not be seen", it's not intented to be comprehesive, all defining, all encompassing absolute statement, it is simply a reminder to Hermoine to be carefull. They 'must not be see' for a variety of reasons. First, they are aiding Dumbledore in circumventing the Ministry of Magic by helping a condemned magic creature, and a notorious escape criminal escape. In order to avoid spending an extremely long time in Azkaban, it would probably be best if no one saw them. Next, the risk being seen by themselves could have disasterous results as Hermione pointed out to Harry. With regard to Hermione's daily Time Turning activities, I don't think either of herselves seeing her other self would really be a problem. Hermione's time travel all occurs within an hour or so of the actual events and occurs repeatedly through out the day and the school year. Both Hermionne's are aware of what is going on. Both of her knows she is time traveling several times during the course of the day, and if either saw the other, they would know what was going on, and their wouldn't be a problem. BUT when the second Harry and Hermoine go back in time, the first Harry and Hermione don't know about it. If the first Harry and Hermoine see the second time traveling Harry/Hermoine, they are going to be very confused. As Harry said, he would probably think he was going crazy, or think it was a plot or attack by some Dark Magic or Dark Wizard, in which case, he may decide to make a pre-emptive strike against this preceived attack and end up injuring or killing himself or Hermione. That would be very very bad for the temporal stability of the space/time continuum. Finally, Hermione in her daily time travel needs to avoid having any of the other students or teacher see more than one of her at a time. She also needs to avoid have students and teachers see her suddenly appear or disappear. They all know she is too young, untrained, and unlicensed, and therefore, not allowed to apparate. Also, the general student population isn't suppose to know that McGonagall is aiding Hermione's studies with a Time Turner. So Hermione needs to be very careful about her routine use of the Time Turner. Back to the beginning, Dumbledore is not making an all encompassing, all defining statement in the hospital wing, he is simple reminding Hermione to be careful. A logical analysis of the overal use and context of the Time Turner should tell you that 'not being seen' is not absolute, but a guideline for proper use of the Time Turner. PS: for those who are keeping track, I estimate that Hermione's biological age is 52 days older than her chronological age because of the use of the Time Turner. [Estimate 6 hours per day, 5 days a week for 10 months]. Thought you might like to know. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 22 19:04:32 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:04:32 -0000 Subject: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: <60.310a753f.2bfe25ef@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58450 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > Ali: > > > I never cease to cringe when posters mention Harry's > > graduation; British kids don't graduate from school, so if Harry > > graduates from Hogwarts that will be another first! > > I have trouble keeping up with these boards, so I may have missed > something somewhere -- if so, please accept my apologies! But if > British students don't "graduate," what happens at the end of their > schooling? ...edited... > > Lynda bboy_mn: There is graduation then again there is graduation which are not necessarily the same. There is the graduation ceremony, which people have indicated is a rare occurance in Britian. This is something that is very common in the US. Now even pre-school, kindergarden, grade/elementary school, and Junior High/middle school have graduation ceremonies. In the other sense of the word, graduation is the SUCCESSFUL completion of a particular stage of schooling. High School graduation, or being a high school graduate, means that the school has certified that you have successfully completed the requirements of high school. Being a college graduate means that the college you attended has certified that you have successfully met the requirements for your area of study. This 'certification' represents your graduation even if the event is nothing more than a letter coming in the mail indicating so. So in Britain, if nothing else, your grades or the certification of your achievements on and successful completion of the GCSE's and the A-Levels are your graduation. That is, the SUCCESSFUL certified end of that stage or your education. In that sense, ceremony or no ceremony, I have to assume the British student do graduate. Just a thought. bboy_mn From shokoono at gmx.de Thu May 22 17:50:14 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (Carolin M?nkemeyer) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:50:14 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: DADA teacher and other things References: <20030521171725.34077.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004d01c3208f$21d7aa60$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58451 Becky wrote: Personally, I think that comment was really just a reaction trying to reassert a little control of the situation there where he was quite frankly feeling pretty darn panicky with everybody yelling at him that Voldemort is back and he not wanting to believe it. This WILL cause a conflict I believe in the next book as it's totally unresolved but it won't cost Dumbledore his job. Me (Finchen): Of course this will cause a conflict. But I wonder how far because Voldemort will doubtlessly not hesitate trying to regain his old power and influence on the people. So I think the MoM will soon have to realize he's back. Well that could also bring up a big controversy within the MoM. If it does I am interested in DD's rolde for he doubtlessly will play one (he has a big influence, for instance it was him deciding Harry was to live at the Dursleys). I hope I didn' t step too far asside the original theme... Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Thu May 22 19:10:02 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:10:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58452 In a message dated 5/21/2003 1:58:48 PM Mountain Standard Time, cindysphynx at comcast.net writes: > > "Impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts." OK, this is not good. > Dumbledore is the only real authority at Hogwarts. No way would > they be calling Dumbledore "impotent," even if he, er, were. > Ahem. (will not read into it....no, no, no fanfic uses of Skele-Gro...no, no, no gaack) But to answer your question, why not? JKR has said in numerous interviews that Dumbledore. Is. Not. Perfect. and Harry has yet to comprehend it. Dumbledore actually makes quite a few mistakes in canon, most of which I can understand, but are mistakes in judgement nonetheless. Some examples below ( Quotes are from American ed. Hardcovers.) PS/SS: 1) Leaves Harry with the Dursleys, who while perhaps necessary for whatever the protection charm is, are emotionally abusive and are raising a spoiled brat. And McGonagall calls him on it! ( "You can't mean the people who live here....They've got this son--I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the street, screaming for sweets... the Boy Who Lived pg. 13) That Harry turns out all right after eleven years of undeserved crap is a miracle. Tom Riddle sure as heck didn't. (I know, choices over abilities.) 2) Hires back Professor Quirrel, who after a long sojourn (in freaking *Albania*), stutters and jumps at anything that moves. ( I know, Dumbledore is an eccentric himself, but still, something is obviously wrong with the guy.) COS: 1) Hires Lockhart (I really, really, really hate Lockhart. I mean it.) who is a fraud, a braggart, and imcompetent at almost anything except his very useful memory charms. Are this kids going to learn anything at DADA? It's no wonder Snape thinks he has to tough them up somewhat (though it's not really his place to do so). Even after he takes all the bones out of Harry's arm, lets Cornish pixies injure students and destroy his classroom, and so on and so forth, he doesn't get sacked. 2) Doesn't try to interrogate Harry any further when he is obviously upset and not telling him everything. (in his office) I do appreciate wanting Harry to talk about it when he's ready, but the basilisk is still running around, and it's a matter of extreme luck that nobody's died. POA: 1) Hires Lupin, who while a competent teacher for once (thank heaven!) is nevertheless a werewolf , and does slip up once in a while (" He didn't take his potion tonight! He's not safe!"--The Dementor's Kiss, pg 380) I know that Lupin is only human and I love him, but one slip up at the wrong place, the wrong time and he could kill and/or infect a lot of students. It really does suck all around, I must say. 2) Does not take Snape seriously when he suggests that Lupin knows how Sirius Black is getting into the castle. Snape flies way off the handle here,and most of his accusations are unfounded, but he is right to a point, Lupin is hiding the fact that Sirius is an Animagus. (MD aside, though I love that theory..waves at the Safe House) 3) Not a mistake, but an admission of imperfection. Dumbledore freely admits to Harry and Hermione that he cannot save Sirius Black from the Dementors. (But they can.) GOF: 1) When Harry's name comes out of the goblet, Dumbledore allows him to enter, despite the age limit, the unfairness of having two contestants from one school, and the obvious conclusion that something fishy is going on. 2) Does not spot that Alastor Moody, whom he is implied to have known for some years, is a imposter until it is almost too late. 3) Cannot convince Fudge of anything (which is hardly his fault, seeing as Snape's Dark Mark can't either) There are others that have been mentioned, but the general point is, Dumbledore, cannot predict everything, cannot be everywhere, cannot be omnipotent. and when the dominoes fall in OOP, whether it is Rita Skeeter, Voldemort, Hagrid or Hermione dying, or anything else (and I am sure one domino is going to fall) it will lead to a scene where a weary and very human Dumbledore says: > 'It is time, for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, > Harry. Please sit down. I am going to tell you everything.' The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Thu May 22 18:05:49 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:05:49 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire? References: Message-ID: <004e01c3208f$22c2a6a0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58453 I don't think he is a vampire hunter that far. In my oppinion it is much more obvious: Sirius tells Harry, Ron and Hermione about Snape already knowing a lot about the dark arts (he did not mention if he knew the "small" or "big" curses). So I really thinks this does some kind of predestinates him for the DADA job. I mean how could an eleven year old boy know so much about the dark arts if there wasn't somebody to teach him? And if you know the curses it's obvious you know the contras aswell. And he also did prove that when saving Harry during the Quiddich match in PS. Yous Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lumos28 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 18:28:21 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (lumos28) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:28:21 -0000 Subject: "Foreign" students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <00f501c32033$2805de40$08570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Actually, both Cho Chang and the Patil sisters could be as British, legally > at least, as Harry himself or HM the Queen. (Who, let us not forget, is > mostly German by ancestry). There are _lots_ of British subjects and > residents of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi origins or ancestry; they range > from people fresh off the boat to people who, except for their darker skins > and last names, are just like the neighbors in almost every way. I don't > think East Asians, such as Cho Chang, would be _as_ common as they are in, > say, the Western US or Western Canada, but they are far from unknown. > > Justin Finch-Fletchley's name is very upper-class, as is his background (you > don't usually get put "down for Eton" unless you're right up there socially, > as I understand it.) There's a whole bunch of clues to where HP characters > stand in the British class system that whizzes right past most American > readers; even I, who am far more familiar with British life and mores than > most USers, probably miss a lot of clues. (A name like "Malfoy," spelled, > as it is, in archaic French, would mean someone _fearfully_ aristocratic, > while about everything about Neville Longbottom screams "working class," at > least according to a correspondent of mine from the UK who loves the HP > books herself) > Its perfectly possible that Cho and the Patil sisters are British citizens. I had earlier made a comment on why JKR may have chosen "patil" as the last name for these sisters. Thanks for the input on Justin's possible background. What do you mean everything about Neville screams working class? The picture of British boarding schools that I grew up on were mostly Enid Blyton stuff: Mallory Towers and suh. But yes, Hogwarts does seem to be a very comfortable place to live in. (I can almost Hermione reminding me that the poor house elves do all the work!) -Anita who is very very dissapointed that her Hindu mythology post got almost no replies :-( From shokoono at gmx.de Thu May 22 18:09:33 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:09:33 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory References: Message-ID: <004f01c3208f$2393b240$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58455 I think all teachers knew about the time turner. This would explain why Snape was so sure that Harry had rescued Sirius. Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu May 22 19:13:00 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:13:00 -0000 Subject: A little more on HIS SWORD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58456 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > Not much canon evidence in SS/PS supporting the HIS SWORD theory, > though there was one interesting little item in the very first > chapter. Prior to Hagrid's arrival with Harry, Dumbledore and > McGonagall are talking about the Potters and Voldemort. During that > conversation, Dumbledore refers to Voldemort having powers that he > (DD) would never have. McGonagall disputes this, saying that DD is > too "noble" to use them. In the US version, the word "noble" is > italicized. While I haven't really tried to determine this, I think > I have sometimes noted that italicized words are clues to some of the > abstract notions that are important in the book. I seem to recall, > for example, that Ron says something to Hermione in PoA concerning > her schedule of either classes or exams, something like "There isn't > enough time", with the word "time" italicized. In combing through PoA, I came up with only one more bit of possible evidence for HIS SWORD, and it ties to the bit above. At the end of the book, Harry is expressing his regret to Dumbledore that he effectively let Pettigrew get away by not allowing Sirius and Remus to kill him. Dumbledore, however, points out that preventing Pettigrew's murder was a "noble" thing to do. One other item: I think this has been mentioned fairly recently, but Sirius at some point calls Harry the last of the Potters or something similar. The notion of being the last of some particular family feels generally consistent with the ideas of inheritance, dynasty, and so on. But I don't recall there being much recounting of the deaths of other Potters besides James. On to GoF. Ersatz Harry, who's glad that people seem to be spelling "canon" correctly again From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 22 19:47:21 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:47:21 -0000 Subject: Smell, descriptions and spells (WAS: OOP: The people in the promo pics... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rane_ab" > > Something else I've been wondering about is the fact that there are very little references to smell in the books. Most people don't necessarily consciously pay much > attention to smell, but we all use it, and it gives us many clues. << JKR uses smell to give us a clue in Book One. Quirrell's turban has a funny smell, a smell which was not present when Harry met Quirrell in The Leaky Cauldron. Quirrell's classroom reeks of garlic, which may be a clue to vampire Snape. Pippin From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 20:04:05 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:04:05 -0000 Subject: Graduate: Re: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, artsylynda at a... wrote: > > Ali: > > > > > I never cease to cringe when posters mention Harry's > > > graduation; British kids don't graduate from school, so if > > > Harry graduates from Hogwarts that will be another first! > > > > Lynda: > > I have trouble keeping up with these boards, so I may have > > missed something somewhere -- if so, please accept my > > apologies! But if British students don't "graduate," what > > happens at the end of their schooling? ...edited... > > > > Lynda > > > bboy_mn: > > There is graduation then again there is graduation which are not > necessarily the same. > > There is the graduation ceremony, which people have indicated is a > rare occurance in Britian. This is something that is very common in > the US. Now even pre-school, kindergarden, grade/elementary school, > and Junior High/middle school have graduation ceremonies. > > In the other sense of the word, graduation is the SUCCESSFUL > completion of a particular stage of schooling. > So in Britain, if nothing else, your grades or the certification of > your achievements on and successful completion of the GCSE's and > theA-Levels are your graduation. That is, the SUCCESSFUL certified > end of that stage or your education. In that sense, ceremony or no > ceremony,I have to assume the British students do graduate. Pip!Squeak: No, they don't! The whole problem is that the word 'graduate' means different things in British English and American English. That is why the way U.S. readers use the word often makes British readers wince. They're using a construction that is perfectly correct in U.S. English and completely wrong in British English. [Like 'gotten' as the past tense of 'got'.] Look through the books and try and find a sentence where JKR refers to students 'graduating' from Hogwarts, or a Hogwarts 'graduate'. You won't find it, because in Britain the word 'graduate' refers to someone who's taken a degree. If you look up 'graduate' in a British English dictionary (like the OED) you will find it defined as: 'a person who has been awarded a first academic degree', or *(N. American)* a high school diploma. The North American usage of the word *is* different. I would never say that I graduated from Priestnall Comprehensive School (though by U.S. standards I did). I would say 'I went to Priestnall Comprehensive School. I graduated from Lancaster University.' Barty Crouch Jr. did not 'graduate' from Hogwarts. He 'went to' Hogwarts. Where he did stunningly well, with his 12 OWLs and very likely top-grade NEWTs. We Brits do sometimes use 'graduate' in a more colloquial sense - you may 'graduate' from lower level to higher-level courses. Snape might well say that 'I fear Longbottom will *never* be ready to graduate to Advanced Potions.' But. We. Do. Not. Graduate. From. Secondary. School. It's just one of those 'two countries separated by a common language' things. 'Graduate' no longer has the same meaning in both countries. Pip!Squeak From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu May 22 20:15:53 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:15:53 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Harry Don't Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58459 Harry Don't (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Honey Don't_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle06.html Dedicated to Beatle-Freak Maria "Arthur," called Mrs. Weasley, who was now shepherding the rest onto the train. "Arthur, what are you doing? It's about to go!" "He's coming, Molly!" said Mr. Weasley, but he turned back to Harry and kept talking in a lower and more hurried voice. "Listen, I want you to give me your word - " "- that I'll be a good boy and stay in the castle?" said Harry, gloomily. "Not entirely," said Mr. Weasley, who looked more serious than Harry had ever seen him. "Harry, swear to me you won't go looking for Black." Harry stared. "What?" Just then, the sound of music filled the station as Fred on bass, George on guitar and Ron on drums leaned out of one of the train windows and started to play a bluesy melody. Mr. Weasley then started to sing: Well, you say you heard us talking last night And you say, Harry, it's alright Now before you go on your way There is one thing that I must say Oh, aw, aw Well, Harry don't Well, Harry don't Harry, don't Harry, don't Harry, don't Promise me that you won't Aw, aw, Harry, don't I knew you were made out of stronger stuff 'Though Fudge said you weren't old enough Only want you to be on your toes With Black loose you've got a right to know But, aw, aw Well, Harry don't Well, Harry, don't Harry, don't Harry, don't Harry, don't Promise me that you won't Aw, aw, Harry don't Aw, rock on George, one time for your dad (George Weasley rocks on his guitar) Promise me... mmmmm hmm I said Well, you've heard how dangerous is Sirius Black And the Ministry's on his track Want to make one thing clear Whatever happens, whatever you hear Oh, aw, aw Well, Harry, don't Well, Harry, don't Harry, don't Harry, don't Harry, don't Promise me that you won't Aw, aw, Harry, don't Aw, rock on George for Fred this time (George rocks again) Well, Harry, don't Well, Harry, don't Don't go looking, Harry don't Promise me that you won't Aw, aw, Harry, don't -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu May 22 20:19:58 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:19:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Religion and Protected!Vernon References: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000e01c3209f$852e5180$737d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 58460 Ejom wrote: >Another tangent if I may: The whole Godfather issue and Christianity >viewpoint. Hogwarts celebrates Christmas and Easter, so it is not a >place that has differentiated itself from religion. The Fat Friar >(as someone has previously noted) is a Catholic monk. Though canon would also support a reading which sees the WW (possibly the Potterverse as a whole) as having left religion behind - the Friar is after all, dead centuries ago. Although Hogwarts has its holidays at Xmas and Easter, that could just be a hangover from an earlier time - the Scottish courts used to have a "Beltane" term for example, down to the 18th century, but that didn't mean that Scottish lawyers and judges were followers of the Celtic religion, any more than a Victorian gentleman saying "By Jove" or "By Jiminy" would have done so to indicate that he was a follower of the Roman pantheon! Reading the Potterverse as basically secular would also explain why no one in it (particularly parents) seems to have the problems with the setup that Christians have with the books in our world... Meanwhile, Kelly wrote: >someone had tried to hurt them. I also notice that she had no problems with >Vernon going to work, but stayed with Petunia the whole day. Then again, >there were plenty of other wizards around Vernon's workplace. Perhaps one >of them was there to make sure nothing untoward happened to him as well. I don't remember them being described as being in close proximity to Grunnnings, just that Vernon saw a lot of them on his way to work. It's actually a particularly interesting passage for me, and the only one which sets the two communities side by side, apparently showing that there are rather more wizards around than some people think... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 22 20:25:01 2003 From: BEANNEBOY1 at HOTMAIL.COM (beanneboy) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:25:01 -0000 Subject: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: <20030522154620.9509.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58461 Becky Walkden wrote: Oh I agree with you totally about McDougall, Lee. She is both trustworthy and capable and a very good person. But for whatever reason, she still seems to be on the outside of "what's happening" and not part of Dumbledore's "inner circle". Well that's what it looks like, but like everything else, we'll find out soon enough! Huggs Becky me: thinking about it i know what you mean, some of the more secretive things have been discussed without her presence. I just always assumed she was well in with the group, because it seems there is no reason why someone of her capabilities would not be involved. As you quite rightly say though we will find out real soon, lee From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 20:37:24 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:37:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Religion and Protected!Vernon References: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> <000e01c3209f$852e5180$737d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <000801c320a1$f430fae0$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58462 > Meanwhile, Kelly wrote: > >someone had tried to hurt them. I also notice that she had no problems > with > >Vernon going to work, but stayed with Petunia the whole day. Then again, > >there were plenty of other wizards around Vernon's workplace. Perhaps one > >of them was there to make sure nothing untoward happened to him as well. > Ffred: > I don't remember them being described as being in close proximity to > Grunnnings, just that Vernon saw a lot of them on his way to work. > > It's actually a particularly interesting passage for me, and the only one > which sets the two communities side by side, apparently showing that there > are rather more wizards around than some people think... He went across the street to the bakery for lunch. There were a group of guys standing around in cloaks outside of the bakery. That's where he heard them mention the Potters. When he left that evening to go home, he ran into someone just oustide the door, who told Vernon he should be rejoicing because You-Know-Who was gone. They were around his workplace as well. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 22 20:44:46 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:44:46 -0500 Subject: Moody's Dark Detectors Message-ID: <20030522.154447.-635885.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58463 Okay, talking about Moody and the Invisibility Cloak made me think of something else that bugged me about the end of GoF and Crouch Jr.-As-Moody. Crouch!Moody and Harry are sitting in the office, where Crouch Jr. is expounding about his part in Voldie's plan. Harry starts seeing shadows in the Foe Glass getting clearer and clearer, until DD breaks down the door with a bang, knocking out Crouch Jr. DD's, Snape's and McGonagall's faces are now clearly seen in the Foe Glass. Problem - this was *Moody's* Foe Glass. Those 3 people are not *Moody's* enemies. Does it re-set itself for a new owner? Or did he change it over himself? Crouch Jr. was young when he was a DE, then carted off to Azkaban, then back home to spend all those years at home, I don't think he had many chances to learn how to do things like setting a Foe Glass for one's own personal use. I know it would have lessened the bang of "he's so wrapped up in what he's doing he's forgetting to pay attention" but still, I think the Foe Glass should have remained empty that night. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 20:50:16 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:50:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagal and l was Re: Missing 24 Hours References: Message-ID: <000c01c320a3$c07f4470$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58464 > Becky Walkden wrote: > Oh I agree with you totally about McDougall, Lee. She is both > trustworthy and capable and a very good person. But for whatever > reason, she still seems to be on the outside of "what's happening" > and not part of Dumbledore's "inner circle". Well that's what it > looks like, but like everything else, we'll find out soon enough! > Huggs Becky > > Lee: thinking about it i know what you mean, some of the more > secretive things have been discussed without her presence. I just > always assumed she was well in with the group, because it seems there > is no reason why someone of her capabilities would not be involved. > As you quite rightly say though we will find out real soon, I was giving some thought to this last night. I see McGonagall as being around more to assume the day-to-day duties of running Hogwarts, leaving DD free to do other things (like run the war, in this case). It's somewhat reminiscent of my high school set-up, where the vice-principal seemed to be more involved with the students and discipline, while the prinicipal stayed more in his office and did the paperwork (and handled the very serious problems). Since McGonagall is the one overseeing the everyday running of Hogwarts, she does not need to know every last thing about V-related matters. DD does trust her, but needs her to handle that end of things. On a related theme, I, like many of you, have noticed that when there is a crisis at the school, three teachers usually seem to turn up: DD, McGonagall, and Snape. I have already discussed DD's and MM's role, but then there is SS. I see him as kind of the school security guard. He turns up when something nefarious may perhaps have occured. The rumor floats around Hogwarts that Snape wants the DADA job, but I say that instead of *teaching* DADA, he *is* the one in charge of making sure the school is defended against the Dark Arts. This would make sense since he would probably be the best one to judge whether they had been used and how connected to V a situation may be. Not saying DD is not capable of doing this, but having Snape on the scene ensures that, if one of them misses the clue, the other will catch it. Also probably why Snape is not afraid to speak up at the slightest thing. Best example is in PoA when the students have been moved to the Great Hall for the night, and Snape warns DD that Lupin might be letting Sirius into the school. Although he has been overruled when it comes to appointing Lupin as a teacher, he feels that Lupin is a security risk for the reason I have mentioned before, and therefore it is his duty to point this out, even though DD is already aware of it, in light of the new incident (Sirius slashing paintings). Yeah, some of his reasoning/motives behind this was because he wants Lupin out for his own reasons, but I feel he was also performing his duty as he saw it as Hogwarts Security Officer, for want of a better term. Leader, Administrator, and Security Officer. I've been calling these three the Hogwarts Crisis Control Team for awhile now (sometimes Crisis Defense Team instead, but usually the first). Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Thu May 22 20:52:16 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:52:16 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Molly Weasly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58465 Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to the exact ages of Arthur and Molly Weasly? I haven't been able to find reference to their age anywhere in canon or on reference sites. I'm thinking mid forties to early fifties, judging merely by appearences, but then that could be off, as wizards seem to age quite gracefully and live longer then the average human. - Joe S. From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 20:54:08 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:54:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody's Dark Detectors References: <20030522.154447.-635885.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <001001c320a4$4b00e0e0$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58466 Melanie wrote: > Okay, talking about Moody and the Invisibility Cloak made me think of > something else that bugged me about the end of GoF and Crouch > Jr.-As-Moody. > > Crouch!Moody and Harry are sitting in the office, where Crouch Jr. is > expounding about his part in Voldie's plan. Harry starts seeing shadows > in the Foe Glass getting clearer and clearer, until DD breaks down the > door with a bang, knocking out Crouch Jr. DD's, Snape's and McGonagall's > faces are now clearly seen in the Foe Glass. > > Problem - this was *Moody's* Foe Glass. Those 3 people are not *Moody's* > enemies. Does it re-set itself for a new owner? Or did he change it over > himself? Crouch Jr. was young when he was a DE, then carted off to > Azkaban, then back home to spend all those years at home, I don't think > he had many chances to learn how to do things like setting a Foe Glass > for one's own personal use. I know it would have lessened the bang of > "he's so wrapped up in what he's doing he's forgetting to pay attention" > but still, I think the Foe Glass should have remained empty that night. I always took it as the foe glass, after all this time, taking Crouch!Moody as its owner. His foes would therefore be reflected in the glass. If the Glass constantly stayed set for one person forever, there is no way one could ever be given to anybody as a gift or an heirloom. Does it say anything anywhere in the books about Foe Glasses being strictly tools for Aurors? If not, maybe they are something that are a little more readily available, and therefore Crouch would've learned how to reset it. Maybe his father even had one at one time. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 21:07:20 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lupin & Lockhart In-Reply-To: <20030522.154447.-635885.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <20030522210720.62559.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58467 Since we are on rants about things that bug us, here is a doozy. But for the life of me, I cannot think of any excuse for this contradiction. Lupin is a warewolf and there is no cure. There IS a difficult potion that will at least stop the worst manifistations of it so that he merely turns into a physical wolf but keeps his human mental bearings. BUT, in the book before, Lockhart describes performing an extremely complicated and difficult spell that turned a warewolf back into a man and freed the village of this terror. Now, of course Lockhart was a fraud and a liar. But he merely borrowed valid stories of other people's daring do. Which means that SOMEBODY cast this spell and it works! If the spell itself was a fraud, he wouldn't have dared describe it in a book of course. Now, there are two possibilities. 1. The spell permenently cured the man of being a warewolf. If that is true, then why couldn't anybody cast it on Lupin? Even assuming it is an extremely difficult, advanced spell, there are still people capable of casting it or the spell wouldn't exist! Certainly Dumbledore could have! 2. The spell's effects only work at that time. Even then, since they know when he's going to transform, somebody like Dumbledore I'm sure wouldn't find it too much trouble to cast it on him so that he could remain human and continue to function. It seems to me if there is a magickal cure for warewolves, be it temporary or permenent beyond the partial cure of the potion, it would have been used. Anybody think this is an accidential inconsistancy on the author's part? Partionally I'll still love her anyways....but it looks like it is. Oh! And don't even ask me what I think about the absurdity of Voldemort going through that extremely uncertain route to get Harry when he could have had Moody/Crouch use a Portkey at any prearranged time of the school year to do the same thing with much more certainty. Even if he had to get Harry away from the school first (invite him to Hogsmeade for a butterbear? that would have been so much safer and more intelligent. And I can't buy the notion of Voldemort wanting to make a spectacular splash. He wanted want thing. To use Harry to gain his strength back! Period! That's OK. I STILL love our author! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 21:12:26 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:12:26 -0000 Subject: McGonagal and l was Re: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: <000c01c320a3$c07f4470$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > > Becky Walkden wrote: > > Oh I agree with you totally about McDougall, Lee. She is both > > trustworthy and capable and a very good person. But for whatever > > reason, she still seems to be on the outside of "what's > > happening" and not part of Dumbledore's "inner circle". Well > > that's what itlooks like, but like everything else, we'll find > > out soon enough! > > Lee: thinking about it i know what you mean, some of the more > > secretive things have been discussed without her presence. I just > > always assumed she was well in with the group, because it seems > > there is no reason why someone of her capabilities would not be > > involved.As you quite rightly say though we will find out real > soon, Kelly: > I was giving some thought to this last night. I see McGonagall as > being around more to assume the day-to-day duties of running > Hogwarts, leaving DD free to do other things (like run the war, in > this case). It's somewhat reminiscent of my high school set-up, > where the vice-principal seemed to be more involved with the > students and discipline, while the prinicipal stayed more in his > office and did the paperwork (and handled the very serious > problems). Since McGonagall is the one overseeing the everyday > running of Hogwarts, she does not need to know every last thing > about V-related matters. DD does trust her, but needs her to > handle that end of things. Pip: I think Dumbledore might also want to give McGonagall 'plausible deniability.' As Deputy Headteacher, she is the person who may have to take over if Dumbledore's position is untenable. It could therefore be very important (in a world with things like Veritaserum) that she can *truthfully* say that she didn't know anything. 'Sirius Black? Never saw him. Black's an illegal animagus? He is? No one told *me*'. And so on. So she's 'out of the loop' for a very good reason; it's important that a reliable person takes over and thus she has to be 'protected' from any suspicious/dodgy/downright illegal activites. The trouble is, of course, we only see what Harry sees (with rare exceptions). We don't know what the behind the scenes instructions are. Was McGonagall panicking in CoS? Or was she acting according to instructions along the lines of: 'Keep the school open, *unless* someone gets killed. If anyone dies, send all the students home as fast as possible.' That would be entirely in keeping with her behaviour in CoS. If Dumbledore *didn't* trust her, I don't think she would have been in the 'Assault Team' at the end of GoF. Pip!Squeak From eloiseherisson at aol.com Thu May 22 21:14:48 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:14:48 EDT Subject: Snape's motivation (was:Re: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory) Message-ID: <3f.1d1f6a82.2bfe97c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58469 JOdel: >I've begun to wonder; if Black and Potter were their generation's Fred and >George whether Snape may have been their Percy. And if that parallel goes >more than skin deep, Dumbledore may have been very glad for a chance to have >a detailed private talk with this particular clever, prickly, upright >Slytherin boy. After all, he knew he needed eyes and ears in the enemy camp. > >The Snape/Dumbledore "deal" may have been struck all the way back then, and >Snape has *always* been on the "right" side. The testimony at Karkaroff's >trial was damage control, not the whole truth. I suppose you could be right. But I'll be very disappointed if you are! ;-) Snape is arguably JKR's most intriguing, possibly her most three-dimesnional character. He poses so many questions. Why does Dumbledore trust him? Why did he leave the DE's? Why did he *join* the DEs in the first place? Why does he hate Harry at the same time as apparently trying to protect him? You are right. All these questions could be answered by Snape and Dumbledore having cut a deal whilst Snape was still a student, by Snape having been constantly in Dumbledore's service, his Death Eating a mere sham. JKR has spent the best part of four books building Snape up as an enimagtic character, one whom at first we are taught to mistrust, one whom we are always supposed to dislike, whose motivation is far from clear, whom only as Book Four draws to its conclusion are we told is truly on Dumbledore's side and whose mysterious past has a little light thrown on it. It is only at this point where that she really challenges us with those questions about his past. About why he became a Death Eater. About why his allegiance changed. Having got more than half way through the series, I shall be so disappointed if we suddenly find out that it was all a sham, that Snape *wasn't* a fully paid-up Death Eater, that he *isn't* angst ridden and tortured about the things he has done in the past, that he didn't change allegiance, but was merely a clever trickster who fooled Lord Voldemort into believing he supported him. I shall be so disappointed if I find out that he is only loyal to Dumbledore because of some deal, not because he believes in his cause. It would be too simple and glib an explanation for my taste. I guess he would still be a complex character, but not as I like to picture him. His position would be truly pathetic: the Slytherin and would-be DE who is a traitor to all he believes in for reasons of self-preservation, rather than the somewhat heroic character who sacrifices the life he might be temperamentally more suited for in the cause of principle. I should feel cheated. And I believe the Potterverse would be deprived of a character who makes us question our conventional ideas of right and wrong, a theme which I feel sure JKR is consciously developing. In Snape we have a "bad" man who apparently willingly acts in the cause of right. If it is a sham, if he does right only out of obligation, then there is no moral lesson to be learned from him. JKR has stated that these are moral books. On that basis, I really hope you're wrong on this one! ;-) ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 21:16:44 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody's Dark Detectors In-Reply-To: <001001c320a4$4b00e0e0$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <20030522211644.2724.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58470 Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: Melanie wrote: > Okay, talking about Moody and the Invisibility Cloak made me think of > something else that bugged me about the end of GoF and Crouch > Jr.-As-Moody. > > Crouch!Moody and Harry are sitting in the office, where Crouch Jr. is > expounding about his part in Voldie's plan. Harry starts seeing shadows > in the Foe Glass getting clearer and clearer, until DD breaks down the > door with a bang, knocking out Crouch Jr. DD's, Snape's and McGonagall's > faces are now clearly seen in the Foe Glass. > > Problem - this was *Moody's* Foe Glass. Those 3 people are not *Moody's* > enemies. Does it re-set itself for a new owner? Or did he change it over > himself? Crouch Jr. was young when he was a DE, then carted off to > Azkaban, then back home to spend all those years at home, I don't think > he had many chances to learn how to do things like setting a Foe Glass > for one's own personal use. I know it would have lessened the bang of > "he's so wrapped up in what he's doing he's forgetting to pay attention" > but still, I think the Foe Glass should have remained empty that night. I always took it as the foe glass, after all this time, taking Crouch!Moody as its owner. His foes would therefore be reflected in the glass. If the Glass constantly stayed set for one person forever, there is no way one could ever be given to anybody as a gift or an heirloom. Does it say anything anywhere in the books about Foe Glasses being strictly tools for Aurors? If not, maybe they are something that are a little more readily available, and therefore Crouch would've learned how to reset it. Maybe his father even had one at one time. Kelly Grosskreutz ME: Actually, we can take that one more time. I doubt very seriously Snape's, Dumbledore's or McDougall's face ever showed up in the Dark Detector before that final time. He couldn't have a Dark Detector that showed Dumbledore's face everytime he came near up on his wall! So obviously the intentions of the foes play the key role as to whether they show up as enemies or not. They were always his enemies but it wasn't intil they themselves realized it did they become so in the "eyes" of the Dark Detector. And just as certainly, the Dark Dector would show the enemies of whomever is in procession of it. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 21:24:14 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:24:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply References: Message-ID: <001a01c320a8$7f756360$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58471 > In a message dated 5/21/2003 1:58:48 PM Mountain Standard Time, > cindysphynx at comcast.net writes: > > > > > "Impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts." OK, this is not good. > > Dumbledore is the only real authority at Hogwarts. No way would > > they be calling Dumbledore "impotent," even if he, er, were. > > The Queen of Serpents replies: > Ahem. (will not read into it....no, no, no fanfic uses of Skele-Gro...no, > no, no gaack) > > But to answer your question, why not? JKR has said in numerous interviews > that Dumbledore. Is. Not. Perfect. and Harry has yet to comprehend it. > > Dumbledore actually makes quite a few mistakes in canon, most of which I can > understand, but are mistakes in judgement nonetheless. Some examples below ( > Quotes are from American ed. Hardcovers.) > > PS/SS: > > 1) Leaves Harry with the Dursleys, who while perhaps necessary for whatever > the protection charm is, are emotionally abusive and are raising a spoiled > brat. And McGonagall calls him on it! ( "You can't mean the people who live > here....They've got this son--I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the > street, screaming for sweets... the Boy Who Lived pg. 13) That Harry turns out all > right after eleven years of undeserved crap is a miracle. Tom Riddle sure as > heck didn't. (I know, choices over abilities.) > On the surface, I would easily agree with you. However, I want to read OoP before I get into this anymore. > 2) Hires back Professor Quirrel, who after a long sojourn (in freaking > *Albania*), stutters and jumps at anything that moves. ( I know, Dumbledore is an > eccentric himself, but still, something is obviously wrong with the guy.) > Well, technically, Quirrell already had a job. He had taken a one-year sabbatical. To the best of my knowledge, a teacher on sabbatical is guaranteed he'll have a job waiting for him when he gets back. Based on what little of the curriculum we see Harry's class undergo under Quirrell, it seems he was a competent enough teacher in the book-smart area (how to treat werewolf bites was one thing they learned). The reason he went on sabbatical to begin with was to gain experience in the field. I don't believe Quirrell went to Albania looking for Voldemort, or that he even knew V was there, for that matter. I get the impression it was a chance encounter, and that's when Q decided to join V's side. Granted, Q came back freaking at anything that moved, but he still knows the subject matter. As for the stutter, I don't know if it's been said if he acquired the stutter in Albania, or if he's always had the stutter. Based on comments Hagrid makes in the Leaky Cauldron, he might have always had it. > COS: > > 1) Hires Lockhart (I really, really, really hate Lockhart. I mean it.) who is > a fraud, a braggart, and imcompetent at almost anything except his very > useful memory charms. Are this kids going to learn anything at DADA? It's no > wonder Snape thinks he has to tough them up somewhat (though it's not really his > place to do so). Even after he takes all the bones out of Harry's arm, lets > Cornish pixies injure students and destroy his classroom, and so on and so > forth, he doesn't get sacked. > No defense made here. I also can't stand Lockhart, and continuously wonder why D ever hired him. > 2) Doesn't try to interrogate Harry any further when he is obviously upset > and not telling him everything. (in his office) I do appreciate wanting Harry to > talk about it when he's ready, but the basilisk is still running around, and > it's a matter of extreme luck that nobody's died. > I always did wonder why he let him go so easily. > POA: > > 1) Hires Lupin, who while a competent teacher for once (thank heaven!) is > nevertheless a werewolf , and does slip up once in a while (" He didn't take his > potion tonight! He's not safe!"--The Dementor's Kiss, pg 380) I know that > Lupin is only human and I love him, but one slip up at the wrong place, the wrong > time and he could kill and/or infect a lot of students. It really does suck > all around, I must say. > Why did Lupin forget to take his potion? He saw on the Marauder's Map that Peter Pettigrew *and* Sirius Black were in close proximity to three Hogwarts students, one of them Harry Potter. (correct me if it was just Peter he saw). Not only did he realize that Sirius had not killed Peter, he was afraid that another murder or three were about to take place. Snape had not yet brought the potion. Yes, Lupin is a werewolf, but he is also human, and he can also forget something under extreme duress and shock like what he saw in the Map. I really think that if a situation like this had not arisen, there would not have been a problem and he could have taught there for years without anyone knowing. And if, for some reason, Snape forgot to brew the potion or something went wrong with it, there is always the Shrieking Shack to fall back on. Remember, Lupin attended Hogwarts as a student, and there would not have been a mishap if not for the stupidity of one of his friends and the idiocy/vengefulness of another student. That mishap was also not DD's fault, as he did not know that either Sirius or Snape was aware of anything amiss with Lupin. If anything, they should have come up with a better way to make Lupin's friends not wonder where he disappeared to every month. Or maybe found a way to home-school Lupin if he's that big of a danger. Ok, I'm going to stop here before I start chasing my own tail. Let's just say as I wrote this section that I believe a whole separate thread could be started on the pros and cons of DD allowing Lupin to both attend Hogwarts as a student and teach. > 2) Does not take Snape seriously when he suggests that Lupin knows how Sirius > Black is getting into the castle. Snape flies way off the handle here,and > most of his accusations are unfounded, but he is right to a point, Lupin is > hiding the fact that Sirius is an Animagus. (MD aside, though I love that > theory..waves at the Safe House) > I just made a tangential post on this a few minutes ago. Yes, D did screw up here, if nothing else, for being arrogant enough to believe that he has all bases covered. I theorized that part of Snape's job is to help D see to the safety of the school, and here he is ignoring the advice of his Security Chief. Lupin *did* know about secret ways into the school that very few knew about, ways that D doesn't even seem to be aware are there. Snape, in his ranting, tries to alert D to the possibility, but is summarily dismissed. > 3) Not a mistake, but an admission of imperfection. Dumbledore freely admits > to Harry and Hermione that he cannot save Sirius Black from the Dementors. > (But they can.) > > > > GOF: > > 1) When Harry's name comes out of the goblet, Dumbledore allows him to enter, > despite the age limit, the unfairness of having two contestants from one > school, and the obvious conclusion that something fishy is going on. > It was a magically binding contract. We don't know what would have happened had Harry been forbidden to participate at this juncture. Even the other Headmasters didn't argue Harry being bound to participate, but more that it wasn't fair for Hogwarts to have two champions and that they wanted to have another champion each. His age was also brought up (mainly by Fleur). But I don't remember there being too much discussion from the other Headmasters about wanting D to forbid Harry from participating. Once his name came up, it was a done deal that he would have to participate, and Crouch Jr. knew it. If anything, D is guilty of not being able to spot Moody, which is exactly what you address in your next point. > 2) Does not spot that Alastor Moody, whom he is implied to have known for > some years, is a imposter until it is almost too late. > > 3) Cannot convince Fudge of anything (which is hardly his fault, seeing as > Snape's Dark Mark can't either) > Nope, not his fault, since Fudge was being willfully blind and probably wouldn't have wanted to believe V was back if V had walked back into the room and told him he had returned and wanted to pick up where he left off. Yes, I agree, D is not perfect, but there are some things that are not his fault and shouldn't be laid at his feet, and then there is the Lupin thing which is a very tough decision to make to begin with and could be debated ad inifintum. One last point to make on the Lupin issue. I say before that Snape was against Lupin being hired partly because he thought Lupin was in league with Black and would help him get into the school. I say D hired him partly because he felt Lupin would be invaluable when it came to knowledge on Sirius Black, since he was his only surviving friend from school. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu May 22 21:26:42 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:26:42 -0000 Subject: Graduate: Re: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58472 Ali wrote: I never cease to cringe when posters mention Harry's graduation; British kids don't graduate from school, so if Harry graduates from Hogwarts that will be another first! bboy_mn: There is graduation then again there is graduation which are not necessarily the same. In the other sense of the word, graduation is the SUCCESSFUL completion of a particular stage of schooling. So in Britain, if nothing else, your grades or the certification of your achievements on and successful completion of the GCSE's and the A-Levels are your graduation. That is, the SUCCESSFUL certified end of that stage or your education. In that sense, ceremony or no ceremony,I have to assume the British students do graduate. Pip!Squeak: No, they don't! The whole problem is that the word 'graduate' means different things in British English and American English. That is why the way U.S. readers use the word often makes British readers wince. They're using a construction that is perfectly correct in U.S. English and completely wrong in British English. SNIP But. We. Do. Not. Graduate. From. Secondary. School. It's just one of those 'two countries separated by a common language' things. 'Graduate' no longer has the same meaning in both countries. Ali again: I agree with everything that Pip said. However, to me, it is not simply that the words have different meanings. I would never use the word "alumini" for ex-school students. That is a word that is also only used for graduates of a university. If I had to call ex- Hogwarts students anything, I might call them "Old-Hogwartians". However, the usage can be tranferred over to ex-Hogwarts students with ease as they are the same in the US or Britain, whatever name we choose to give them. In Britain there is no equivalent of a successful completion of studies at school. We move up a year whether we have been outstandingly successful or can't read or write (usually). There is no set level at GSCE or A'Level over which you can be judged to have successfully completed your schooling (Although schools are judged on how many kids get 5 or more GCSEs). If Hermione gets 12 OWLS she will undoubtedly have been very successful, if she gets say 5 grade A NEWTS, she will have passed with flying colours (assuming they work in a similar way to A'Levels). However, there is no prescribed number of A'Levels to prove your success. 1 or 4 might be needed for the school-leaver: it depends. I think it is this that is the problem: our lack of standardisation. Someone might get 9 GCSEs, but have failed maths. Would they have successfully completed that stage of their education or not? Applying that to Hogwarts, it is possible that Harry will pass all his OWLs, but fail Potions. Given that Potions appears to be very important, has he graduated from that stage or not? In the British system he could still move on, and perhaps retake that exam at a later date if he felt so inclined. However, as I would use the word "graduate", it would mean achieving a minimum acceptable standard in a predetermined range of subjects. It is this that does not happen in British schools. Ali From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 21:28:37 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:28:37 -0000 Subject: Lupin & Lockhart In-Reply-To: <20030522210720.62559.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58473 Becky Walkden wrote: > Lupin is a warewolf and there is no cure. BUT, in the book > before, Lockhart describes performing an extremely complicated and > difficult spell that turned a warewolf back into a man and freed > the village of this terror. Now, of course Lockhart was a fraud > and a liar. But he merely borrowed valid stories of other people's > daring do. Which means that SOMEBODY cast this spell and it > works! If the spell itself was a fraud, he wouldn't have dared > describe it in a book of course. Now me: I think that if Lockhart was bold enough to attribute the fantastic deeds of others to himself, he was probably bold enough to fabricate the deeds in the first place. So, IMO, he probably made this up in its entirety. Which should have been a red flag to his readers (or at least to Dumbledore) that he was a fraud. Which, to me, is the more perplexing issue - why did Dumbledore hire him if he was so obviously a fraud? Another possibility is that the "cure" he was referring to in his book was the Wolfsbane Potion. Lupin refers to the Potion as a "cure" - in the Shrieking Shack, he says: "My parents tried everything, but in those days there was no cure. The Potion that Professor Snape has been making for me is a very recent discovery" (PoA, Ch. 18). So perhaps Lockhart was just taking a bit of editorial license in calling the "cure" a "charm" rather than a "potion," and in saying that the "cure" turned the werewolf back into a man (instead of saying that the "cure" turned the werewolf into a harmless wolf). But I think this is a stretch - more likely, Lockhart made it all up (the "Wagga Wagga werewolf" and the "Homorphus Charm" both sound pretty bogus to me). ~Phyllis From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 21:33:57 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:33:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character descriptions (was OoP covers...) References: Message-ID: <002801c320a9$da9e5fc0$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58474 > > Also keep in mind that the narrator of the book is a child. This > view may > > change as the narrator grows older. > > > > Kelly Grosskreutz > > http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova > > Um???? The narrator is a child? As far as I know, the narrator is an > unknown. The narration is written in the third person, and is > speaking in the present. The narator seems to know Harry's thoughts, > but no one elses, however is present for most conversations (even > with the adults). > We have no information on the narrator at all, never mind guessing > that it is a child. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Peggy > Sorry, misworded myself here. I meant to say that the story is mostly from Harry's POV, and Harry is not yet an adult. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 22 21:34:29 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin & Lockhart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030522213429.84782.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58475 Phyllis wrote: Becky Walkden wrote: > Lupin is a warewolf and there is no cure. BUT, in the book > before, Lockhart describes performing an extremely complicated and > difficult spell that turned a warewolf back into a man and freed > the village of this terror. Now, of course Lockhart was a fraud > and a liar. But he merely borrowed valid stories of other people's > daring do. Which means that SOMEBODY cast this spell and it > works! If the spell itself was a fraud, he wouldn't have dared > describe it in a book of course. Now me: I think that if Lockhart was bold enough to attribute the fantastic deeds of others to himself, he was probably bold enough to fabricate the deeds in the first place. So, IMO, he probably made this up in its entirety. Which should have been a red flag to his readers (or at least to Dumbledore) that he was a fraud. Which, to me, is the more perplexing issue - why did Dumbledore hire him if he was so obviously a fraud? Another possibility is that the "cure" he was referring to in his book was the Wolfsbane Potion. Lupin refers to the Potion as a "cure" - in the Shrieking Shack, he says: "My parents tried everything, but in those days there was no cure. The Potion that Professor Snape has been making for me is a very recent discovery" (PoA, Ch. 18). So perhaps Lockhart was just taking a bit of editorial license in calling the "cure" a "charm" rather than a "potion," and in saying that the "cure" turned the werewolf back into a man (instead of saying that the "cure" turned the werewolf into a harmless wolf). But I think this is a stretch - more likely, Lockhart made it all up (the "Wagga Wagga werewolf" and the "Homorphus Charm" both sound pretty bogus to me). ~Phyllis ME: I can't buy that because he would have been certainly caught if he was making up none-existant charms and such. There are too many very knowledgable witches and wizards reading books (these were big sellers-he was famous and respected) for him to get away with a complete fabrication. The only thing he could really fabricate was in placing himself in the heart of the action. Not the act itself. People would DEFINATELY have known and blown his cover a long time ago. As far as why Dumbeldore hired him, maybe Hagrid's explanation rang true. He was the ONLY person who wanted it! Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 22 21:52:37 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:52:37 -0000 Subject: Lupin & Lockhart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > into a harmless wolf). But I think this is a stretch - more likely, > Lockhart made it all up (the "Wagga Wagga werewolf" and > the "Homorphus Charm" both sound pretty bogus to me). > Lockhart did not invent Wagga Wagga and neither did JKR. It is a real place. The name means "the place of many crows." It's the largest city in New South Wales, Australia. I like Rita's theory that the Homorphus charm doesn't cure the werewolf, it only returns it briefly to human form, so that the werewolf's human identity can be discovered and the werewolf can be be confined during future transformations. Pippin From horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com Thu May 22 21:13:17 2003 From: horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:13:17 -0000 Subject: Ron's Place (was Heirs of Houses) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58477 Ah, now here's where I disagree. I think Ron is, in fact, very brave, and very loyal. And yes I know you're thinking I'm just saying this as a steadfast Ron fan (which I am, mind you) but I truly think this. Ron has always stuck by Harry, and he's never backed away from a fight or challenge. He volunteered to be Harry's second in a wizard duel with Malfoy in first year. He also was the one who first piped up that he was going down with Harry to recover the stone. His highlight of the whole first book, and his true bravest moment, is when he sacrificed himself in the chess match with the queen. He didn't know he wouldn't come out with a broken head or arm... or even dead for that matter! He did it out of the brave of his heart. And in the book he stays calm and doesn't lose his head in the Devil's Snare. (Odd how the movie turns that around, eh?) Now the place where everyone calls him a coward is in the second book. He's scared of spiders! It's plain as that! I am also very scared of spiders, so I understand all his fears and what makes him squirm. But he again is brave! He didn't let Harry face Aragog alone. And he didn't run off at the sight of him either. (Though he was a little shocked, but who wouldn't be!?) In the Third book he jumps in front of Harry to save him from the dog and he also says to Black, '"If you want to kill Harry, you'll have to kill us too!" he said fiercly, though the effort of standing up had drained him of still more color, and he swayed slightly as he spoke.' (PoA, pg. 249) He also stands up for Hermione three times (three MAJOR times, that's not all of them) Not every boy would spend and hour belching up slugs if he was a coward and disloyal. He also sticks up for her in front of Snape when she knew the answer to the difference between a werewolf and regular dog and Snape gave Ron detention. And when her teeth grew thanks to Malfoy, he stood up for he again and received yet another detention from Snape. (See the pattern yet?) Yes, Ron is brave. And yes, I AM saying this as I stare at my large collection of Ron pictures and poster. But I hope I have swayed you to believe how brave Ron truly is, without me just being another obsessive fan girl. Bye, The Insane Girl Best Known as Ali (In response to:) We've seen enough of Ron to see that, while he is as loyal and down to >earth, bravery isn't actually his strong suit. He's not craven, by any >means, but his fears do get in the way sometimes. From girl_about_town at lycos.de Thu May 22 21:49:58 2003 From: girl_about_town at lycos.de (donna_immaculata) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:49:58 -0000 Subject: Snape's motivation (was:Re: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory) In-Reply-To: <3f.1d1f6a82.2bfe97c8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > JOdel: > > >I've begun to wonder; if Black and Potter were their generation's Fred and > >George whether Snape may have been their Percy. And if that parallel goes > >more than skin deep, Dumbledore may have been very glad for a chance to have > > >a detailed private talk with this particular clever, prickly, upright > >Slytherin boy. After all, he knew he needed eyes and ears in the enemy camp. > > > >The Snape/Dumbledore "deal" may have been struck all the way back then, and > >Snape has *always* been on the "right" side. The testimony at Karkaroff's > >trial was damage control, not the whole truth. > > > > I suppose you could be right. But I'll be very disappointed if you are! ;-) > > Snape is arguably JKR's most intriguing, possibly her most three-dimesnional > character. He poses so many questions. Why does Dumbledore trust him? Why did > he leave the DE's? Why did he *join* the DEs in the first place? Why does he > hate Harry at the same time as apparently trying to protect him? > > You are right. All these questions could be answered by Snape and Dumbledore > having cut a deal whilst Snape was still a student, by Snape having been > constantly in Dumbledore's service, his Death Eating a mere sham. Hello there, I fully agree with Eloise on the fact that Snape would lose much of his three-dimensional character if he had been a spy all along and never a Death Eater. BUT: Is there any theory why Sirius - of all people! - should say that he does not believe Dumbledore would ever had let Snape teach at Hogwarts if he had been a Voldemort supporter at some point in his life? (cf. GoF, chap. Padfoot Returns): "... and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot people wouldn't, but I just can't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort." Now, we know that Sirius trusts Dumbledore deeply, but would his hatred for Snape not make him at least consider the matter? He pointedly defends his opinion when Ron confronts him with the fact that Moody (and Crouch) have searched Snape's office etc. In the same context, Sirius says that Snape has never been accused of being a Death Eater, so we know he does not know everything (seeing as Karkaroff has accused Snape). But in saying that he does not *believe* Snape has ever worked for Voldemort, he merely states his opinion, not a well-known fact. And I think it's not a very *Sirius* thing to do, defending Snape. Anyway, I would like whether there are any theories on this and whether this has been already discussed on the list. (I'm new, so I might have missed the discussion. In that case, I do apologise.) Donna > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From innermurk at catlover.com Thu May 22 22:01:26 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:01:26 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply In-Reply-To: <001a01c320a8$7f756360$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58479 Queen of serpents wrote a breakdown of DD mistakes: > > COS: > > > > 1) Hires Lockhart (I really, really, really hate Lockhart. I mean it.) who > is > > a fraud, a braggart, and imcompetent at almost anything except his very > > useful memory charms. Are this kids going to learn anything at DADA? > It's no > > wonder Snape thinks he has to tough them up somewhat (though it's not > really his > > place to do so). Even after he takes all the bones out of Harry's arm, > lets > > Cornish pixies injure students and destroy his classroom, and so on and so > > forth, he doesn't get sacked. > > I'm not defending Lockhart here, but I do have to ask why it's all right for Snape to mistreat students as a "learning tool" and it's not ok for Lockhart to do so. There seems to be a double standard running around here. Let's face it if Snape had set the trio in a room and unleashed a bunch of cornish pixies on them, some on this list would argue that it was an important lesson, he was trying to toughen them up, he was grooming them to fight the Dark Lord, and a myriad of other excuses. But when Lockhart does it, he's just a fraud, braggart, and an icompetent idiot? > > POA: > > > > 1) Hires Lupin, who while a competent teacher for once (thank heaven!) is > > nevertheless a werewolf , and does slip up once in a while (" He didn't > take his > > potion tonight! He's not safe!"--The Dementor's Kiss, pg 380) I know that > > Lupin is only human and I love him, but one slip up at the wrong place, > the wrong > > time and he could kill and/or infect a lot of students. It really does > suck > > all around, I must say. Kelly Grosskreutz replied to this point: Why > did Lupin forget to take his potion? He saw on the Marauder's Map that > Peter Pettigrew *and* Sirius Black were in close proximity to three Hogwarts > students, one of them Harry Potter. (correct me if it was just Peter he > saw). Not only did he realize that Sirius had not killed Peter, he was > afraid that another murder or three were about to take place. Snape had not > yet brought the potion. Yes, Lupin is a werewolf, but he is also human, and > he can also forget something under extreme duress and shock like what he saw > in the Map. I really think that if a situation like this had not arisen, > there would not have been a problem and he could have taught there for years > without anyone knowing. And if, for some reason, Snape forgot to brew the > potion or something went wrong with it, there is always the Shrieking Shack > to fall back on. Remember, Lupin attended Hogwarts as a student, and there > would not have been a mishap if not for the stupidity of one of his friends > and the idiocy/vengefulness of another student. That mishap was also not > DD's fault, as he did not know that either Sirius or Snape was aware of > anything amiss with Lupin. If anything, they should have come up with a > better way to make Lupin's friends not wonder where he disappeared to every > month. Or maybe found a way to home-school Lupin if he's that big of a > danger. Ok, I'm going to stop here before I start chasing my own tail. > Let's just say as I wrote this section that I believe a whole separate > thread could be started on the pros and cons of DD allowing Lupin to both > attend Hogwarts as a student and teach. > I innermurk want to add: Think of the shock Lupin must have had when he saw the map that night. Petter Petigrew was dead for thirteen years, and now all of a sudden he's appearing on the map (which cannot lie). That alone would've made me run out to see what the heck was going on. Add to that the fact that Sirius Black a murderer (of muggles if not Pettigrew) and serious security breech is there as well. Add to that the fact that Harry Ron and Hermione three students that Black is after are out there as well. Add to that the fact that they're rapidly dissapearing off the map and Lupin is the only one who knows where they are.....Yeah, I can see him running out there without thinking. And I don't blame him for it. Queen of serpents continues: > > 2) Does not take Snape seriously when he suggests that Lupin knows how > Sirius > > Black is getting into the castle. Snape flies way off the handle here,and > > most of his accusations are unfounded, but he is right to a point, Lupin > is > > hiding the fact that Sirius is an Animagus. (MD aside, though I love that > > theory..waves at the Safe House) > > Kelly Grosskreutz continues: > I just made a tangential post on this a few minutes ago. Yes, D did screw > up here, if nothing else, for being arrogant enough to believe that he has > all bases covered. I theorized that part of Snape's job is to help D see to > the safety of the school, and here he is ignoring the advice of his Security > Chief. Lupin *did* know about secret ways into the school that very few > knew about, ways that D doesn't even seem to be aware are there. Snape, in > his ranting, tries to alert D to the possibility, but is summarily > dismissed. > I innermurk add: WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!!!!!!! First of all I don't see DD as being arrogant here at all! He has a person in the DADA job that knows what he's doing, and has helped to fight with him in the past (the old crowd). He has no idea that Sirius is an animagus and neither does Snape. What he *does* know is that Snape is seriously predjudiced against Lupin, so he has to take everything Snape says about Lupin with a grain of salt (or two or three). Now, we don't know that he didn't question Lupin a time or two...especially after Black breeched the castle security. In fact, I believe he probably did. He has no reason to distrust Lupin's word. Innermurk From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Thu May 22 22:03:14 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:03:14 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Trelawney Prediction References: Message-ID: <001f01c320ad$f235f7c0$7993253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58480 I, Izaskun, wrote: > I think DD witnessed Trelawney's first prediction, and LV knew about it by some way or the other. There were a lot of spies for both sides in those days. Or maybe LV didn't know the prediction, he just went after the Potters because he an extremely evel centaur told him about Saturn and Mars brighting unusually the night Harry was born, or whatever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BlueSqueak answered: Possible - but the easiest route is Snape. He's the one person we currently know of who would have good reason to tell *both* Voldemort and Dumbledore. If Snape is a witness, no extra spies are required. If Dumbledore is the sole witness, we have to explain how Voldemort found out, and why Snape doesn't share McGonagall's obvious contempt for Trelawney. I, Izaskun, again: Ok, the easiest route is Snape, agreed, but if the first prediction was about the Potters I very much doubt Snape would have told Voldemort, he was indebted to James, he wouldn't have put him or his family in danger, and we have reasons to suspect that he was the spy who informed DD that LV was after the Potters, i doesn't make sense then. 1.- If DD knew about the prediction, he didn't need anyone to tell him the Potter were in danger. 2.- If Snape told LV about the prediction, why tell DD afterwards that the Potters were in danger? Wasn't it easier not to tell anything about this prediction to LV and make sure the Potters were safe, instead? I keep thinking LV knew about the prediction through some one else, and Snape informed DD about it and about the danger the Potters were in. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Thu May 22 22:35:40 2003 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:35:40 -0000 Subject: SHIP / OOP spoiler question - any evidence for Snape loving Lily yet? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58481 I've deliberately avoided reading the plot summary for OOP. However, there is one thing I can no longer wait till June 21 for: do we find out anything in OOP that could be construed as evidence for the theory that Snape was friendly with or in love with Lily? Thanks in advance for your help. Jo From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 22:43:35 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:43:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply References: Message-ID: <004701c320b3$95228c50$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58482 > Kelly Grosskreutz continues: > > I just made a tangential post on this a few minutes ago. Yes, D > did screw > > up here, if nothing else, for being arrogant enough to believe that > he has > > all bases covered. I theorized that part of Snape's job is to help > D see to > > the safety of the school, and here he is ignoring the advice of his > Security > > Chief. Lupin *did* know about secret ways into the school that > very few > > knew about, ways that D doesn't even seem to be aware are there. > Snape, in > > his ranting, tries to alert D to the possibility, but is summarily > > dismissed. > > > > I innermurk add: > WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!!!!!!! First of all I don't see DD as being arrogant > here at all! He has a person in the DADA job that knows what he's > doing, and has helped to fight with him in the past (the old crowd). > He has no idea that Sirius is an animagus and neither does Snape. > What he *does* know is that Snape is seriously predjudiced against > Lupin, so he has to take everything Snape says about Lupin with a > grain of salt (or two or three). Now, we don't know that he didn't > question Lupin a time or two...especially after Black breeched the > castle security. In fact, I believe he probably did. He has no reason > to distrust Lupin's word. Maybe arrogant is a strong word-choice. I said arrogant because he seems to believe that with the dementors, Snape, and Lupin (and who knows what other protections), he thinks everything has been taken care of and no one can get in the castle. I agree, only Lupin knows that Sirius is an animagus. But Sirius Black *did* get into the castle somehow, breaching all of these defenses. Snape gives an explanation how this could have happened. Granted, Snape is not completely correct, and Snape is doing this mostly for his own reasons, so I completely understand why D doesn't just jump and say, "You're right, Severus, I'm going to have a talk with Remus tomorrow, and it might cost him his job." And he may have had a talk with Lupin about Sirius and asked if Lupin had any clue how Sirius could've gotten in. But we don't really have any evidence this talk took place. If this talk did not take place, I would say D sort of screwed up there, since had he confronted Remus, Lupin might have confessed his knowledge of the passages and Sirius's ability. On the other hand, if D and Lupin did have a talk, and Lupin still did not confess these things, then I wouldn't be so harsh on D because he did try to find out what happened, and he can't help it one of his teachers lied to him (the lie of omission). Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 22 22:48:27 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:48:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Snape's motivation (was:Re: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory) References: Message-ID: <004c01c320b4$43200580$7eccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58483 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > > JOdel: > > > > >I've begun to wonder; if Black and Potter were their generation's Fred and > > >George whether Snape may have been their Percy. And if that parallel goes > > >more than skin deep, Dumbledore may have been very glad for a chance to have > > > > >a detailed private talk with this particular clever, prickly, upright > > >Slytherin boy. After all, he knew he needed eyes and ears in the enemy camp. > > > > > >The Snape/Dumbledore "deal" may have been struck all the way back then, and > > >Snape has *always* been on the "right" side. The testimony at Karkaroff's > > >trial was damage control, not the whole truth. > > > > > > > > I suppose you could be right. But I'll be very disappointed if you are! ;-) > > > > Snape is arguably JKR's most intriguing, possibly her most three-dimesnional > > character. He poses so many questions. Why does Dumbledore trust him? Why did > > he leave the DE's? Why did he *join* the DEs in the first place? Why does he > > hate Harry at the same time as apparently trying to protect him? > > > > You are right. All these questions could be answered by Snape and Dumbledore > > having cut a deal whilst Snape was still a student, by Snape having been > > constantly in Dumbledore's service, his Death Eating a mere sham. > Donna: > Hello there, > > I fully agree with Eloise on the fact that Snape would lose much of his three-dimensional character if he had been a spy all along and never a Death Eater. BUT: Is there any theory why Sirius - of all people! - should say that he does not believe Dumbledore would ever had let Snape teach at Hogwarts if he had been a Voldemort supporter at some point in his life? (cf. GoF, chap. Padfoot Returns): > > "... and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot people wouldn't, but I just can't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort." > > Now, we know that Sirius trusts Dumbledore deeply, but would his hatred for Snape not make him at least consider the matter? He pointedly defends his opinion when Ron confronts him with the fact that Moody (and Crouch) have searched Snape's office etc. > > In the same context, Sirius says that Snape has never been accused of being a Death Eater, so we know he does not know everything (seeing as Karkaroff has accused Snape). But in saying that he does not *believe* Snape has ever worked for Voldemort, he merely states his opinion, not a well-known fact. And I think it's not a very *Sirius* thing to do, defending Snape. > > Anyway, I would like whether there are any theories on this and whether this has been already discussed on the list. (I'm new, so I might have missed the discussion. In that case, I do apologise.) My thoughts on this. I don't see Sirius as being a huge Snape supporter here. He just knows what the DE's are capable of and the crimes they have committed. Being accused of being a DE himself, Sirius also understands how public opinion is vehemently against the DE's. And then he hears Snape being connected with this group, but yet also knows that Snape is a teacher at Hogwarts, implying that DD trusts Snape enough to let him be near a bunch of children. Sirius can't picture DD allowing anyone who had actually been a DE into this sort of position. Therefore, because of this, he concludes that Snape couldn't have been a DE, or else DD wouldn't let him teach. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From akhillin at rcn.com Thu May 22 21:34:15 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:34:15 -0500 Subject: Lily's protection saving Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58484 -----Original Message----- From: eledhwen_0 [mailto:slinkie at nids.se] The problem is that I do not believe that her sacrifice is the thing that saved Harry at all. It is never stated in cannon that this is what saved him. In PS/SS (sorry I don't have the books with me so I can't say which page) Dumbledore simply says that Quirell/Voldemort couldn't touch Harry because of the protection given by Lily, not that this is what kept him alive as a baby. I've been thinking that too, and I JUST reread PS/SS (actually, I read SS), so I can confirm that there isn't any reference that he deflected the Avada Kedavra curse because of his mother's love, just Volemort's touch. I also just returned from a business trip, so if this has been said by someone else since May 18, I haven't read to that e-mail yet! akh From paula.russell at lineone.net Thu May 22 22:55:11 2003 From: paula.russell at lineone.net (paulanurse2003) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:55:11 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/21/2003 1:58:48 PM Mountain Standard Time, > cindysphynx at c... writes: > > > > > "Impotence of the authorities at Hogwarts." OK, this is not good. > > Dumbledore is the only real authority at Hogwarts. No way would > > they be calling Dumbledore "impotent," even if he, er, were. > > > Ahem. (will not read into it....no, no, no fanfic uses of Skele- Gro...no, > no, no gaack) > > But to answer your question, why not? JKR has said in numerous interviews > that Dumbledore. Is. Not. Perfect. and Harry has yet to comprehend it. > > Dumbledore actually makes quite a few mistakes in canon, most of which I can > understand, but are mistakes in judgement nonetheless. Some examples below ( > Quotes are from American ed. Hardcovers.) > > PS/SS: > > 1) Leaves Harry with the Dursleys, who while perhaps necessary for whatever > the protection charm is, are emotionally abusive and are raising a spoiled > brat. And McGonagall calls him on it! ( "You can't mean the people who live > here....They've got this son--I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the > street, screaming for sweets... the Boy Who Lived pg. 13) That Harry turns out all > right after eleven years of undeserved crap is a miracle. Tom Riddle sure as > heck didn't. (I know, choices over abilities.) > Interesting point but I do not think that we can assume that in this example DD either shows lack of judgement or is incompetent for the following reasons: As stated above there is some degree of protection afforded to Harry whilst in the care of the dreadful Dursleys. However DD also very astutely states that Harry would be unable to cope with the pressure of being 'Famous for something he won't even remember!' (p.16 PS) Clearly he wants to give H time away from the WW before confronted with the truth (which lets face it none of us really know yet what that will be). This rationale is agreed & accepted by McGonagall. Indeed IMHO Harry would display more fear and trepidation over his future if he had been brought up in a WW that still feared to speak LV name. His absence from the WW allows him to accept facts as they are now without undue influence & fears of the past. Clearly despite the Dursleys appalling treatment DD is justified in this decision. >From Paula (First ever post - forgive if format wrong) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu May 22 23:44:42 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:44:42 -0000 Subject: McGonagal and l was Re: Missing 24 Hours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58486 Replies to Kelly and Pip!squeak in this post. Kelly wrote: Leader, Administrator, and Security Officer. I've been calling these three the Hogwarts Crisis Control Team for awhile now (sometimes Crisis Defense Team instead, but usually the first). Tom says: I like this nickname for those three. ;-) Pip!squeak wrote: If Dumbledore *didn't* trust her, I don't think she would have been in the 'Assault Team' at the end of GoF. Tom comments: Starting from a slightly different PoV: it *is* interesting that Snape isn't visible at all during or after the Third Task. So, if he wasn't there (as McGonagall was) at the Quidditch pitch, then that means that Dumbledore either had to summon him or otherwise get him, before then going to Crouch!Moody's office. I.E. Dumbledore specifically wanted Snape to be there in the office. He probably grabbed Minerva right away, and then somehow collected Snape. McGonagall, however, was right there to be grabbed. Snape had to be found, or else, Dumbeldore knew exactly where he'd be. But, Pip, I'm not sure that I follow your train of thought here. How does trust relate to this situation? And does this mean that you believe that Dumbledore *doesn't* trust, say, Professors Sprout or Flitwick, or simply that he trusts Minerva *more," or even that there are different kinds of trust? As for 'plausible deniability,' I think that that's the best answer to Minerva having seemingly been cut out of the loop on certain maneuvers at the end of GoF. That is, if you want to preserve the notion of Good!McGonagall, instead of succumbing to the plethora of delightfully nasty Evil!McGonagall possibilities. ;-) -Tom From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 00:36:39 2003 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (Anna Hemmant) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:36:39 -0000 Subject: It's possible there ISN'T an Heir of Gryffindor and o... In-Reply-To: <179.1aa0ede0.2bfcdf16@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/21/2003 8:43:35 AM Central Standard Time, > orlaquirke2002 at y... writes: > > > but I don't think that Godric's > > Hollow is specifically mentioned as a town or a villiage. In fact, > > I'd always thought of it as a house name, and I'm as sure as I can > > be without checking that the reason that I get this impression is > > because we hear it in the same kind of context as > > I need to get the book but my impression was that it was a place. A Hollow > being: "a depressed or low part of a surface; especially : a small valley or > basin" .. and I just can't see a house being named after a basin. The > Burrow being a house's name makes more sense to me because I picture it as > being full of little passages and hidey holes ect which is exactly what a > burrow (well technically its a hole its ground that rabbits (gnomes??) and > the like use for shelter .. but I digress) Also 'burrow' is a more 'cuddly" > word. . Makes me think of burrowing under the covers where its warm and safe. me again: I really want to hold fast to my initial interpretation, and say that Godric's hollow sounds like an unpretentious name for an old british estate; some old estates are refered to as 'park', and it always struck me as a more old worldy type mystical version of this; James was supposed to be rich, right? However, I may just have to stand down; I've looked, and can't find anything to prove or disprove my point, and it seems rather weak, so I'm just going to keep my idea about the potter's home, hope I'm proved right later on, and not argue about it right now. Anna From artsylynda at aol.com Fri May 23 00:42:02 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (Lynda Sappington) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:42:02 -0000 Subject: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catherinemckiernan" wrote: We do graduate at the end of university, in very heavy silk/wool gown > and wool/silk.fur hoods (the USA school graduations I?ve seen on USA > TV programmes seem to use artificial silk?), and often bits of latin > and trumpets. If you?re really lucky, you get to do it in a cathedral. > Everyone worries about tripping over their gown and their mortar board > falling off. All the boys borrow kirby grips off the girls. > Kirby grips? Are those like bobby pins? Wavy metal things that hold small amounts of hair, or hold hats to your hair? Our graduation gowns are polyester for high school, a bit heavier for college (bachelor's degree). You can buy a heavier, higher quality one for your Master's or Doctorate graduation if you want, and some PhD grads wear a soft velvet hat like a tam (or a floppy beret) rather than a mortarboard. Here, college graduates have taken to decorating their mortarboards. Nurses, in particular, do very silly things like tie balloons to their mortarboards. Others will write message on top ("Thanks, Mom & Dad!" things like that), or decorate them with pictures and glitter. At least that's how it was at Wright State University, where our daughter got her B.S. and M.S, and at University of Dayton, where my hubby got his M.S. (both near Dayton, Ohio). So if I understand you correctly, British kids may wind up out of school and out in the job market when they finish their O.W.L.'s (well, the real equivalent), at age 16 or so? Yikes, so young! Thanks for the info! Lynda From heidit at netbox.com Fri May 23 00:41:27 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:41:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP / OOP spoiler question - any evidence for Snape loving Lily yet? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58489 No, nothing from the publishers at this point. It's all been about Harry, Harry Harry. Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org -----Original Message----- From: "jotwo2003" Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:35:40 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP / OOP spoiler question - any evidence for Snape loving Lily yet? Real-To: "jotwo2003" I've deliberately avoided reading the plot summary for OOP. However, there is one thing I can no longer wait till June 21 for: do we find out anything in OOP that could be construed as evidence for the theory that Snape was friendly with or in love with Lily? Thanks in advance for your help. Jo ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri May 23 00:58:47 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:58:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply Message-ID: <172.1acc5f36.2bfecc47@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58490 In a message dated 5/22/2003 4:03:40 PM Mountain Standard Time, innermurk at catlover.com writes: > I'm not defending Lockhart here, but I do have to ask why it's all > right for Snape to mistreat students as a "learning tool" and it's > not ok for Lockhart to do so. There seems to be a double standard > running around here. Let's face it if Snape had set the trio in a > room and unleashed a bunch of cornish pixies on them, some on this > list would argue that it was an important lesson, he was trying to > toughen them up, he was grooming them to fight the Dark Lord, and a > myriad of other excuses. But when Lockhart does it, he's just a > fraud, braggart, and an icompetent idiot? > > > Being a purveyor of the "Snape is trying to toughen up the trio" theory myself several emails ago, I can see your point. But first of all, Snape, while being harmful to the mental and emotional health of his students, draws the line at physical harm.(makes sure Longbottom is carried to the hospital wing after his cauldron explodes, and saves Harry from falling off his broom in PS/SS, for example). If he really unleashed a cage full of Cornish pixies on a class, I doubt he would just sit there while the students were obviously *not* handling the situation. And we all what Lockhart did. The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hp at plum.cream.org Fri May 23 01:12:51 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 02:12:51 +0100 Subject: Smells & descriptions In-Reply-To: References: <20030522043713.37238.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030523015029.009a89a0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 58491 Rane wrote: >Something else I've been wondering about is the fact that there are >very little references to smell in the books. Just off the top of my >head, I think there might be two or three all in all Actually, there are a lot of olfactory references throughout the books, mainly in regard to rooms or houses. Here are just a few of them (no page references as I'm doing this from memory and don't have the time to check): Hogwarts feasts always start with the smells of the delicious foods on offer. Mrs Figg's house smells of boiled cabbage (PS/SS), as indeed does the Apothecary in Diagon Alley. Quirrell and his classroom smell of garlic (PS/SS). I'm sure I recall the PS/SS troll having a distinctive smell. Filtch's office smells of fish in CoS, as do the blast-ended screwts in GoF (I remember those because I've tried to determine some kind of connection). Before we see the Deathday Party in CoS, I'm sure we're told how it smelled. The Weasleys' tent at the QWC smells of cats (GoF), as a result of which lots of people have tried to make a connection to Mrs Figg and her cats. I'm sure there are several more. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who could do with a shower right now, talking of smells... ;-) From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri May 23 01:12:28 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:12:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply Message-ID: <189.19c86eae.2bfecf7c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58492 In a message dated 5/22/2003 4:03:40 PM Mountain Standard Time, innermurk at catlover.com writes: > Think of the shock Lupin must have had when he saw the map that > night. Petter Petigrew was dead for thirteen years, and now all of a > sudden he's appearing on the map (which cannot lie). That alone > would've made me run out to see what the heck was going on. Add to > that the fact that Sirius Black a murderer (of muggles if not > Pettigrew) and serious security breech is there as well. Add to that > the fact that Harry Ron and Hermione three students that Black is > after are out there as well. Add to that the fact that they're > rapidly dissapearing off the map and Lupin is the only one who knows > where they are.....Yeah, I can see him running out there without > thinking. And I don't blame him for it. > He must have had the shock of his life. But the fact still remains he came within a inch of killing Harry, Ron, Hermione, Snape, Sirius and Peter. I feel very sorry for Lupin, he's a competent teacher, a nice guy, and he doesn't deserve this lycanthropy crap. But I'm afraid the bare bones of the matter is, under the full moon, being human doesn't cut it. And why didn't he floo someone and ask for help before tearing out there? How was he going to protect Harry and his friends by himself from Sirius or Peter or whoever the betrayer is when he's hours away from becoming a werewolf? I understand that Lupin panicked, but the fact remains that it was extremely careless. The Queen of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 01:35:28 2003 From: orlaquirke2002 at yahoo.com (Anna Hemmant) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:35:28 -0000 Subject: Criticisms of Dumbledore WAS Re:OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58493 The criticism of Dumbledore that I most take issue with here is the one about him sending Harry to live with the Dursleys. Now, my sister and I both had supremely bad childhoods; we were sent around foster homes from an early age, and they're not known for being wonderful places to grow up in. But my sister got an attachment disorder, which we believe was due to being abused by our natural mum. Now, having grown up with her, and living with my own neuroses, I can honestly say that if the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory is correct, and Dumbledore has been grooming Harry to become the 'one' to defeat Voldemort since day one, it may have been the best place to put him. Now, before you all get crazy and have a go at me about condoning Dumbledore's decision to put Harry in an abusive environment, let me explain why I think this. If we take a look at all of the other 'world change' stuff out there, like the LOTR, Buffy at the moment, The Matrix, etc, and we take a look at the heroines or heroes in particular, as has already been said somewhere on this list, the events that are going to take place are going to change everybody involved irrevocably, and not necessarily for the better. A person who has already dealt with hardship is much more likely to be able to deal with the events that are obviously coming. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger and all that stuff. As long as you don't have to deal with the betrayal of those close, as long as they stay loyal, you can pretty much withstand anything. Also, you tend to think less of yourself, and do what's best for everyone else. Unless, of course you're permanently emotionally damaged, and Dumbledore obviously had Arabella Figg looking out for him in this respect. If Harry had been damaged by his experiences at the Dursley's, he would have started acting out from an early age, and it would have been visible to all who knew him. Excuse my use of my personal experience to put myself forward as an authority on this; few people ever respond to my posts; please don't think I'm going to cry or anything if people disagree! Anna From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Fri May 23 01:43:05 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP / OOP spoiler question - any evidence for Snape loving Lily yet? Message-ID: <20030523014305.67140.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58494 Jo asked: <<>> And now I (Odile) wonder thusly: I am familiar with the Snape loving Lily theory, but! I have another - or maybe someone else thought of it before me. Anyway. What if Snape was crushing on Narcissa Malfoy? Please bear with my what ifs: What if Snape hooked up with the Death Eaters to be closer to her? What if Snape bailed on the DEs because she married Lucius and had Draco? What if Snape is indulgent of Draco because he still carries the proverbial torch for Narcissa? Canon? Nah. I just think she's enigmatic and interesting. ^_~ Odile :::29 days...29 days... 29 days....:::: From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 01:43:40 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Graduate: Re: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030523014340.79827.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58495 --- bluesqueak wrote: > > No, they don't! The whole problem is that the word > 'graduate' means > different things in British English and American > English. That is > why the way U.S. readers use the word often makes > British readers > wince. They're using a construction that is > perfectly correct in > U.S. English and completely wrong in British > English. [Like 'gotten' > as the past tense of 'got'.] Gotten is the past perfect tense of "get", right? And got is past tense of get. Unless I've gotten my grammar confused. Anyway, I've known for some time that British students don't graduate high school--people said so on HP message boards and lists. So, Bristish people say they finished high school (sorry, if the terminology is improper; I do understand O-Levels and A-Levels, but don't have the vocabulary down)? Is there any sort of ceremony for finishing A levels? Or college (university, I believe is the term used)? Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri May 23 01:48:10 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:48:10 EDT Subject: The debate on Lupin was OOP: Spoilers and whatnot Message-ID: <11d.226606e8.2bfed7da@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58496 I'm really starting to scare myself. I concede the point about Sirius Black being on the loose and Lupin running to help was probably justified. I'm really starting to scare myself with this Lupin shouldn't teach at Hogwarts thing. I don't want to be the person who thinks that people should be persecutes because of what they are. The Queen of Serpents, who is now really upset [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Fri May 23 01:59:47 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Place (was Heirs of Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58497 On Thu, 22 May 2003, Ali wrote: > Now the place where everyone calls him a coward is in the > second book. He's scared of spiders! It's plain as that! I am also > very scared of spiders, so I understand all his fears and what makes > him squirm. But he again is brave! He didn't let Harry face Aragog > alone. And he didn't run off at the sight of him either. (Though he > was a little shocked, but who wouldn't be!?) I personally think Ron's fear of spiders makes his decision to go with Harry to see Aragog *more* brave, not less so. Not fearing anything isn't brave, it's foolish (or insane). But being afraid of something and doing it anyway because it's important -- that's real bravery. I have no doubts at all that Ron truly belongs in Gryffindor. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From gandharvika at hotmail.com Fri May 23 02:18:04 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 02:18:04 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Mrs. Norris Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58498 Mrs. Norris (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Dr. Roberts by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle11.html Flitch: Found her hanging from the wall, Mrs. Norris When I saw her there I started to waul, "Mrs. Norris!" Mrs. Norris. I am not going to pretend She's my one and only friend Did her life come to an end? Mrs. Norris Dumbledore, he checked her out, Mrs. Norris He told me without a doubt, Mrs. Norris "Mrs. Norris. Argus Flitch, she hasn't died She was somehow petrified" I sat and cried for Mrs. Norris Oh, no, no, she's petrified Oh I know who did it Harry Potter! He was found at the scene of the crime, Harry Potter This boy's in trouble all the time, Harry Potter Harry Potter. He found out I am a Squib Though I tried to keep it hid But I know what he did to Mrs. Norris Oh, no, no, Potter is lyin' Oh, I know he hated Mrs. Norris What am I going to do without Mrs. Norris? What am I going to do without Mrs. Norris? Mrs. Norris -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From hp at plum.cream.org Fri May 23 02:25:14 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 03:25:14 +0100 Subject: Character descriptions (was OoP covers...) In-Reply-To: <000901c3205a$84b2ed50$0bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> References: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20030522104822.0099c960@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030523024616.0097cab0@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 58499 Kelly Grosskreutz wrote, in reply to my previous comments about the lack of age indications for adult characters: >Granted, nothing has been stated in canon to say James and Lily >immediately married or immediately started having kids, but by speculating >this way, one can figure that the youngest they can be is 35. They >could've been older than this, but it gives one a starting point. Which was my entire point. That indicates only the youngest they can possibly be, but it's based *entirely* on assumptions, and not actual canon. We have no indications in canon, even after four books, that Lily & James married and had Harry straight out of Hogwarts (or even that Harry is their first child!), and thus until the PoA revelations, they could quite reasonably be assumed to be much older. Furthermore, Snape is head of House at Hogwarts and until the revelation in the second half of PoA, we have no means whatsoever of determining his age. McGonagall is twice his age (or so at least we know extra-canonically - again!), which is far more reasonable. Which in turn raises extra questions about how he got the post. As I said originally, there is a deliberate literary purpose behind this. It makes it possible for JKR to pull all kinds of tricks on us (such as the PoA Revelations, for starters!) simply because our expectations are solely in our own heads and not in the text. Nevertheless, the characters remain difficult to visualise without some major jumping to conclusions on our parts. For instance, this list regularly sees a resurgence of attempts to determine the Weasley parents' (and adult sons') ages, which again we can only establish in terms of quite generous approximations, if that. The same goes for the Malfoys. >As for Dumbledore, I understand how it is eminently satisfying to have an >idea just how long he has been around, but yet I can see why she doesn't >feel it that important to tell us. She has already told us that he is one >of the oldest wizards around and has been kicking Dark wizard butt since at >least 1945. I actually was content knowing Dumbledore was ancient and never >really needed to know just how old he was, but that's just me. You misunderstand. I don't need to know *exactly* how old any character is. However, I would like to get some kind of indication of a general age bracket into which to put them, not only to be able to give their features some kind of context, but to be able to speculate about possible relationships (no, I don't mean sexual or romantic ones - that interests me *even less*!). The fact that Dumbledore was around (and an obviously powerful adult) half a century before our timeframe is more than enough for me to get an image of the guy. Whether he was around 100 years before *that* isn't really of relevance to me. However, one of the things I'd like to know is whether Karkaroff was around at that time. Whether as a boy, young man or experienced adult is a secondary issue. Or was he not born until a couple of decades later, in time for Voldemort's first rise? Nothing in canon gives me any indication of which may be correct, whilst making both assumptions reasonable. >In other words, I wouldn't look to Karkaroff's propensity at using >people's first names as an indicator of age. Which was exactly the point I was making. :-) We have *nothing* on which to be able to get any kind of handle on how old the guy might be! >In my view, Karkaroff might be closer to McGonagall's age than either Snape >or DD. I see Lucius Malfoy as being somewhat older than Snape, maybe ten >years older. I see Karkaroff being perhaps that much older than Lucius, but >still younger than McGonagall. If that helps out any in your >imaging/casting decision. Slight misunderstanding here because I didn't express myself properly previously (hey, I *did* admit that I was in a rush). :-) The point I was trying to make is that based on what we know about him, Karkaroff can be any age with a lower limit around Snape's (mid-30s) and an upper limit around Dumbledore's (150-ish). That is a *huge* difference, both in terms of imagining what he might look like, and his role during, after and perhaps even before Voldemort's first rise to power. Furthermore, how does he relate to Malfoy? I have absolutely no doubt that his role is going to prove to have been more significant than giving the MoM a few DEs' names. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who's having trouble (again) finding the time to reply to all the posts he'd want to... From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 23 02:30:06 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:30:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply References: <172.1acc5f36.2bfecc47@aol.com> Message-ID: <002501c320d3$39f98cf0$43ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58500 > In a message dated 5/22/2003 4:03:40 PM Mountain Standard Time, > innermurk at catlover.com writes: > > > I'm not defending Lockhart here, but I do have to ask why it's all > > right for Snape to mistreat students as a "learning tool" and it's > > not ok for Lockhart to do so. There seems to be a double standard > > running around here. Let's face it if Snape had set the trio in a > > room and unleashed a bunch of cornish pixies on them, some on this > > list would argue that it was an important lesson, he was trying to > > toughen them up, he was grooming them to fight the Dark Lord, and a > > myriad of other excuses. But when Lockhart does it, he's just a > > fraud, braggart, and an icompetent idiot? First, let me say I have not totally and fully embraced the "Snape's toughening up the kids to deal with dark times" theory. However, I still see a difference between Snape setting pixies on a group of second years and Lockhart doing so. I don't think I've heard anyone argue that Lockhart is *not* a fraud, braggart and an incompetent idiot. Snape is not a fraud. He has proven that he knows what he is doing. I don't think I've heard anyone argue that he is just pretending he knows his subject, and we truly have no proof one way or the other that he does not know how to handle Cornish pixies. Hand in hand with this, I'd say about 99 percent of the people on this list would say that Snape is very competent and not an idiot. An idiot living his life would have died a LONG time ago. As for being a braggart, how often have we heard him brag? He is capable of it, but Lockhart beats him hands down. Not that bragging has anything to do with the double standard bit. Yes, I agree, people would be more inclined to argue that it was an important lesson, etc, if Snape was teaching it. But that's because Snape has proven he usually knows what he's talking about. All Lockhart has proven he knows how to do is smile, look pretty, co-opt other people's accomplishments as his own, and cast excellent Memory Charms. Plus, as another post mentioned, he seems to more or less do his best to prevent physical harm. Lockhart could care less if someone died in his class, as long as it wasn't him and he could come out of the situation looking good or like he tried to save the victim. It is for reasons like these that people rush to Snape's defense while vilifying Lockhart. I personally am not a fan of much of what Snape does in the classroom, and realize he would be sacked in a real school (at least in the US) very quickly, but there is still much more to defend here than with Lockhart. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 23 02:45:06 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 02:45:06 -0000 Subject: Ron's Place (was Heirs of Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58501 Patricia wrote: > > I personally think Ron's fear of spiders makes his decision to go with > Harry to see Aragog *more* brave, not less so. Not fearing anything isn't > brave, it's foolish (or insane). But being afraid of something and doing > it anyway because it's important -- that's real bravery. I have no doubts > at all that Ron truly belongs in Gryffindor. > > ---- THANK YOU! Anyone who isn't afraid of a giant freaking spider is a lunatic, or as Ron would say, "barking!" Darrin -- I'm personally afraid of cockroaches, so never, EVER, expect me to call a band with the name "Cockroaches" in it a good band name. From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri May 23 02:50:46 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 02:50:46 -0000 Subject: Ron's Courage In-Reply-To: <22310.204.248.21.50.1053615573.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58502 Dave wrote: > Ron, on the other hand, is much more emotional and much less logical. We > see it over and over again - The Devil's Snare is the example that > immediately comes to mind. Ron isn't brave, but will 'body guard' Harry > and Hermione to a fault ("eat slugs" is the best example I have right > now). Ron's whole family seems to be like this; even Jinny Weasley is > like this - she stands up to Draco in Flourish and Blotts the second or > third time we see her in the series. Now I, Linda, with my two knuts: I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you on a fundamental level. IMHO, you are overlooking a basic part of the Weasley family. It's almost a certainty that Arthur was working aginst LV during the first war, and most probably Molly was too.(not exactly canon but implied) They have three adult sons that are intelligent and compassionate.(Setting any Percy betrayal theories aside for the moment) I'm sure that both Bill and Charlie had moments in their school years when they earned their mothers wrath as Fred and George have. Children need to grow out of their childishness. When push comes to shove, even Fred and George take their schooling seriously. What better example of having been raised well can you site than a pair of twins whose life ambition is to make people's days just a little bit brighter? I don't think Ginny has been developed enough as an individual to really draw any kind of conclusion about her one way or the other. As for Ron, I think I have a different definition of courage than you do. I think of courage as the ability to do what needs to be done despite fear or, indeed, because of it. In this context, Ron could actually be seen as the most courageous of the group. He harbors the most fears, both internally and externally. He has a pronounced fear of Spiders yet offers only a token verbal resistance to following the spiders into the forbiden forest before following through, quite willingly it would seem, with what he perceives as doing what needs to be done. I actually see his character's shining moment as the moment he realized Lockhart would leave Ginny to die. Once again fear is the mitigating factor-fear of loosing his sister. So we have two examples of external fears-one which he overcomes and one which stirs him to action. However I do feel that Ron's greatest fear is internal. He fears that he will forever be just Ron, the youngest brother who was nothing special. I really hope that JKR gives him the chance to conquer the internal fear before the series is over. Sorry I'm rambling. It's late. My point is that the Weasley children were raised right. They know the difference between what is right and what is easy and will make the right choices. IMHO, finding the courage to act upon that choice will not be a problem. -Linda From hp at plum.cream.org Fri May 23 03:04:09 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 04:04:09 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Graduate: Re: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: <20030523014340.79827.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030523032642.009d0360@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 58503 Rebecca Stephens wrote: >Is there any sort of ceremony for finishing A levels? Or college >(university, I believe is the term used)? As has been stated at least a couple of times in this thread, there are absolutely no formal ceremonies to celebrate the issuing of A Level certificates. Zero, nada, zilch, nothing. Is that clear? :-) In any event, the results are not revealed until the middle of the summer holidays, so schools aren't in session. Most students go out or have parties on receipt of their results, but these events have absolutely nothing to do with the school. What happens on the "publication day" (it's the same date for all schools, whether state-funded or private - this year's A Levels results will be announced on 14th August) is that pupils either turn up at their schools which will have received a bundle of individually-addressed envelopes and a printout, or they receive the results by post at home. They then get together with their friends to discuss their results, and then usually end up in a pub where they drink far too much either to celebrate or commiserate. That is the sum total of celebrations for 99% of British school pupils. Some schools (usually the posh ones) might arrange something a little more formal, but these events have absolutely no academic significance and are *purely* social events. Incidentally, to use a phrase I like using whenever this topic comes up, the very concept of "graduation" is anathema to the philosophy of British secondary education. That philosophy is based on a continuum, which deliberately shies from the end of formal/compulsory schooling being considered as something important. It's just a series of exams, not a major life-changing step. In any event, I'm not sure how a two-tier examination system could possibly be equated with "graduation". It's actually very interesting that in a recent consultation, the British government (which LOVES tinkering with the education system) proposed the (re)introduction of a matriculation certificate ("graduation", in other words). Educators and universities told them that they would never, ever support such a move. The GCSE/A Level system is much, much more flexible, and is designed to allow students to work to their strengths. Any kind of general "graduation" requirement would undermine over 50 years of British education and its final examination system, which is VERY highly regarded across the world. Britain used to have a matriculation system until the end of the 19th century, which was scrapped in favour of the two-tier O/A Level system because it simply didn't work properly. Educationists consider any return to such a system a retrograde step. In other words, it has been underlined in the strongest possible terms that British secondary (high) school pupils DO NOT GRADUATE. It's not just about terminology, it's about an educational philosophy and so, pupils "leave" school. What qualifications they have on leaving, and what they make of them, is individuals' concern. University graduations are an entirely different affair. Students will usually find out whether they have passed and the final grade of their degree before the end of the academic year (as papers are usually assessed internally and thus the lecturers will announce results in person). Towards the end of the summer, each university holds its own graduation ceremony, which are very similar to the US high school graduation ceremonies I've seen in movies and on TV. For the curious, here's a picture of my niece Victoria in her graduation gown (with a couple of her friends, she's in the middle) last year: http://plum.cream.org/victoria/Image02.jpg. Oh, and while I'm at it, for those who are curious, this is what a genuine A Level certificate looks like (mine, as it happens; I have replaced some of the details with fictional data for obvious reasons): http://plum.cream.org/HP/misc/owls.jpg From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri May 23 03:03:11 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 03:03:11 -0000 Subject: Potter Lineage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58504 Hi all! I was reading through all the posts regarding whether or not Harry is the heir of Gryffindor and a question came to mind. Do we know from canon that James Potter was a pure blood? Considering Ron's comment that if wizards had only married other wizards (witches) that the WW would have died out, I think it's a reasonable question. If there is canon support for James being a pure blood, would someone please tell me where? For that matter would anybody like to comment on whether it even matters? Why or why not? - Linda, who checked in at Barnes and Noble today to make sure they would be open at 12:01 on the 21st From hp at plum.cream.org Fri May 23 03:24:09 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 04:24:09 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potter Lineage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030523041309.00998220@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 58505 Linda wrote: >I was reading through all the posts regarding whether or not Harry is the >heir of Gryffindor and a question came to mind. Do we know from canon that >James Potter was a pure blood? Not directly, we don't. However, it can be pretty safely assumed because even Voldemort himself didn't seem to hold anything against James's lineage, unlike Lily's. >Considering Ron's comment that if wizards had only married other wizards >(witches) that the WW would have died out, I think it's a reasonable >question. If there is canon support for James being a pure blood, >would someone please tell me where? For that matter would anybody >like to comment on whether it even matters? Why or why not? For the "natural heir of Gryffindor" speculation it matters because if James didn't have any magical lineage, there's no direct link to Godric Gryffindor's. Despite some people's refusal to accept what I consider to be obvious, Lily has been stated to be Muggle-born, so the lineage isn't through her. That particular theory aside, it would make "conceptual" sense for Harry to be born of a purely Magical father and a purely Muggle mother in order to underline various themes of the series, including the concept of pureblood heritage being unimportant, for starters. -- GulPlum AKA Richard, who really should be going to bed and probably hasn't made a great deal of sense (it *is* 4.20 am!) From jodel at aol.com Fri May 23 03:57:22 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:57:22 EDT Subject: Cave-in (was security at Hogsmeade) Message-ID: <10.3094393e.2bfef622@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58506 I (JOdel) commented; >>And, there was a third passage behind the mirror on the fourth floor which was the Twin's prefered route until it caved in the winter that the Basilisk was making free of the school. At this point we do not know whether the Basilisk was relevant to the cave in.<< To which Tanya reminded us of the cave-in that Lockhart set off at the end of CoS. Nice try. But it doesn't wash. The twins stated very clearly that their passage caved in in the *winter* of the Basilisk. Lockhart's cave-in wasn't until the end of the term. Probably May or, more likely, June. Different passage altogether. The winter cave in would probably have taken place any time from the Christmas hols to about February or March. And during most of that period Harry had the Diary and the Basilisk was not called at all. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 23 06:00:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 06:00:51 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Molly Weasly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "guardianapcelt" wrote: > Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to the exact ages of Arthur > and Molly Weasly? ...edited... - Joe S. bboy_mn: This was discussed here not too long ago (April 19, 2003). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/55624 Their ages hinge on whether you believe they went to school before or after Hagrid. If they went to school before him, that would put them in roughly the 70 to 80 age range. If they went to school after Hagrid, that would make them 50 to 60 years old (in nice round numbers). Their ages are tied to the reference by Mrs. Weasley to Ogg the game and/or grounds keeper. She mentions him in a conversion while Harry, Molly, and Bill are strolling around Hogwarts during GoF. After Hagrid was expelled, 50 years ago, Dumbledore pursuaded Dippet - the headmaster - to keep Hagrid on as gamekeeper. That would imply that Ogg was gamekeeper before Hagrid, and that is still true even if Hagrid didn't take over gamekeeping duties right away. He was only 13 years old afterall. During this conversation about Ogg the grounds/game keeper, Molly Weasley does NOT reminise about Hargrid or mention him in anyway. I have to assume if he was at Hogwarts being trained as an apprentice under Ogg, Molly would have know who he was, and knowing how good of friends Harry and Hagrid are, she would have spoken of him. That leads me to the conclusion, that Molly and Arthur were at Hogwarts before Hagrid and Tom Riddle. Hargid is near mid-60's, so that would make the Weasleys +70. Just a thought. bboy_mn' From jodel at aol.com Fri May 23 06:10:44 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 02:10:44 EDT Subject: Snape's motivation (was:Re: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58508 Eloise states: >>I shall be so disappointed if we suddenly find out that it was all a sham, that Snape *wasn't* a fully paid-up Death Eater, that he *isn't* angst ridden and tortured about the things he has done in the past, that he didn't change allegiance, but was merely a clever trickster who fooled Lord Voldemort into believing he supported him. I shall be so disappointed if I find out that he is only loyal to Dumbledore because of some deal, not because he believes in his cause. It would be too simple and glib an explanation for my taste.<< Well I think you can safely take it to heart that there isn't going to be anything "sudden" about our learning the truth about Snape. We're probably going to flip-flop through the final three books and the question will only be answered for certain (if at all) by the end of the series. In fact. I virtually guarantee that the reader is not going to be permitted to remain in his current state of complacence about Snape's loyalties. At some point in book 5 we are going to be told a piece of information about the professor which throws us back into our former state of uncertainty. My vote for the form of this information, at this stage in the series is the news that before Voldemort fell, he had assigned Snape to keep in touch with Hogwarts and to spy on Dumbledore. But that may be an oversimplification. In any event, we are not going to be able to continue to safely assume that Snape is one of the good guys. I suspect that this assumption will be upset in turn by the end of the 6th book and only settled for all by the end of the 7th. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rstephens at northwestern.edu Fri May 23 01:50:38 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 01:50:38 -0000 Subject: HP timeline in Book Magazine Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58509 JKR is on the cover of Book magazine's May/June issue (found at Barnes and Noble). There's a handful of good articles about the upcoming book and the influence of HP on children's literature. Anyway, one thing that was particularly interesting to me (and probably many of you) is a timeline of major events in the wizarding world which runs at the bottom of pages 42-45. When I read the Fantastic Posts upon joining this groups, there seems to be a debate about Hermione's birth year. According to this timeline, Hermione was born on September 19, 1980, which makes her younger than both Ron and Harry. I wasn't sure if this debate had already been settled with information from another source, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to tell everyone about it. The timeline in general is very interesting, but I don't want to quote it all because of the message last week about copying the contents of articles onto the board. Thus, I suggest you all go pick up a copy at Book if you're interested in seeing it all (though if I get permission from the administrators to put the timeline on the board I will). Sorry if any of this information is old hat, but I felt compelled to share it. Rachel From gwc22 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 02:02:07 2003 From: gwc22 at yahoo.com (Wayne Cochran) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 02:02:07 -0000 Subject: Hypothesis for Trelawney's First Real Prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58510 I was thinking, considering that Trelawney's 'fake' predictions are always of death and destruction, maybe her first 'real' prediction was as well. Since the fall of Voldemort would technically not be a gloom-and-doom scenario, maybe her first prediction actually concerned a certain 'friend' of the Potter's. Perhaps her first real prediction was that they would be betrayed by someone close to them. Not only would this fit with her normal bad news 'predictions,' but also would mirror her second real prediction with it hanging on the actions of Peter Pettigrew. I am new to this board, so if this has been brought up before, let me know. "Wayne" From kemp at arcom.com.au Fri May 23 07:13:50 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 07:13:50 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA Job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58511 I was just wondering if it is *fact* that Snape wants to be the DADA teacher, or just rumour that has become psuedo-fact... I did a quick rummage through the books and came up with the following quotes (below) and none of them are first hand accounts. "Everyone Knows" - who is this everyone?? Most of his angst toward the other DADA teachers can be put down to his mis-trust of the person *in* the job rather than his desire to *have* their job. One thing I have noticed about JK is her brilliant use of misdirection (not suprising in a book about magic). She gives clues to the truth, but keeps you so pre-occupied with something else, you miss the clues (eg Snape/Quirrell in PS/SS) So... is this a Snape Fact OR is this a bit of JK misdirection - make Snape seem the type (dark), make him hate the people in the job, even have him complain about how well the job is being done and how he would do it differently - only to find out it's divination he really wants :-) -------------------------------------- "Who's that teacher talking to Professor Quirrell?" he [Harry] asked Percy. "Oh, you know Quirrell already, do you? No wonder he's looking so nervous, that's Professor Snape. He teaches Potions, but he doesn't want to -- everyone knows he's after Quirrell's job. Knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts, Snape." (SS) -------------------------------------- "Maybe he's left," said Harry, "because he missed out on the Defense Against Dark Arts job again!" (CoS) -------------------------------------- Harry, Ron, and Hermione had already had two Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers, both of whom had lasted only one year. There were rumors that the job was jinxed. (PoA) "Professor Snape's very interested in the Dark Arts, he blurted out. "Really?" said Lupin, looking only mildly interested as he took another gulp of potion. "Some people reckon --" Harry hesitated, then plunged recklessly on, "some people reckon he'd do anything to get the Defense Against the Dark Arts job." (PoA) Professor Snape, the Potions master, was staring along the staff table at Professor Lupin. It was common knowledge that Snape wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job, but even Harry, who hated Snape, was startled at the expression twisting his thin, sallow face. It was beyond anger: it was loathing. Harry knew that expression only too well; it was the look Snape wore every time he set eyes on Harry. (PoA) "Snape's never been like this with any of our other Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers, even if he did want the job," Harry said to Hermione. "Why's he got it in for Lupin? D'you think this is all because of the boggart?" (PoA) "Professor Snape was at school with us. He fought very hard against my appointment to the Defense Against the Dark Arts job. He has been telling Dumbledore A year that I am not to be trusted. He has his reasons... you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me --" (PoA) -------------------------------------- It was common knowledge that Snape really wanted the Dark Arts job, and he had now failed to get it for the fourth year running. Snape had disliked all of their previous Dark Arts teachers, and shown it - but he seemed strangely wary of displaying overt animosity to Mad-Eye Moody. Indeed, whenever Harry saw the two of them together - at mealtimes, or when they passed in the corridors - he had the distinct impression that Snape was avoiding Moody's eye, whether magical or normal. (GoF) -------------------------------------- Pickle Jimmy From mirai_vegito at yahoo.com.au Fri May 23 04:35:26 2003 From: mirai_vegito at yahoo.com.au (Majinbaka) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 04:35:26 -0000 Subject: Lupin & Lockhart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58512 > > into a harmless wolf). But I think this is a stretch - more > likely, > > Lockhart made it all up (the "Wagga Wagga werewolf" and > > the "Homorphus Charm" both sound pretty bogus to me). > > > > Pippin: > Lockhart did not invent Wagga Wagga and neither did JKR. It is > a real place. The name means "the place of many crows." It's > the largest city in New South Wales, Australia. I don't know about Wagga Wagga being the largest city in NSW, I think that honour goes to Sydney which is the state captial of NSW, is the largest city in whole country & has over 4 million residents. I'm looking at a touring compnanion of Australia - it's a bit old, 1999, but Wagga is alot smaller than say places like Newcastle & Wollongong, cities a couple of hours drive either side (north & south) of Sydney. > I like Rita's theory that the Homorphus charm doesn't cure the > werewolf, it only returns it briefly to human form, so that the > werewolf's human identity can be discovered and the werewolf > can be be confined during future transformations. Another thought I had is that maybe the charm was invented by the person who used in Wagga & was lost when Lockhart wiped his memory. No memory of the charm, no charm, all that's left is the Wolfsbane potion again. -Hyperbole. Australian Baka. From mirai_vegito at yahoo.com.au Fri May 23 06:36:29 2003 From: mirai_vegito at yahoo.com.au (Majinbaka) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 06:36:29 -0000 Subject: British culture viewed through the Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58513 > So if I understand you correctly, British kids may wind up > out of school and out in the job market when they finish their > O.W.L.'s (well, the real equivalent), at age 16 or so? Yikes, so > young! Thanks for the info! > > Lynda >From one who took the RL Australian version of that move (I didn't go back for HSC - A-Level equivilent) I think the Wizarding World would encourage students to stay through to the end of their NEWTs. Quiting at the earlier stage means a lot less job prospects plus I think advanced magic such as apparation would not be covered until 7th year. -Hyperbole. Majin Baka Gryffindor. From ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 03:04:23 2003 From: ace_of_spades_99 at yahoo.com (ace_of_spades_99) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 03:04:23 -0000 Subject: disagreement with character descriptions and general attitudes! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58514 Hello, I am new to this forum, but I have read many of the emails I have received so far. Someone addressed the character descriptions. I find that J.K.R. has kept character descriptions vague for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, she is an artist and maybe she wants us to have to use our creativity. Kids are very creative and use their imaginations very well so why not us adults? Have we been spoonfed so long that we are no longer able to think for ourselves? I believe any great artist inspires us to create. That is exactly what J.K. Rowling has done for me, inspired me to create a world inside my own mind. Her brief and or vague character descriptions are intentional, use your head! Children do it so can you! What fun would the books be if we didn't put our own twists in them. Secondly, She is very descriptive when she has to be, or when she is trying to make a point. Examples: Quidditch was explained very well because it had to be. Since we (the reader) had never seen such a game a heavy description is necessary. However she very heavily describes Rita Skeeter to drive a point home. Simply because she wants us to see the big picture. She has never overly described Hogwarts, it unfolds as we go along. I assume that J.K.R. knew we all knew what a castle looked like and did not have to go into the greatest of details at the start. It helps to keep the mystery alive! J.K.R. is truly a mystery writer. The details were left sparce to boost our imaginations, but the plot remains thick because thats what really matters most! Why is imagination such a lost ability for adults. I think most of your lack of faith in J.K.R. is disturbing. She has knocked us off our feet with the first four books. I have no reason to believe the last three will be any different. We must remember that everything that happens has been mapped out by Rowling from the beginning. For 5 years she sat and detailed what would happen in each of her 7 book series. Everything that is or isn't there is that way for a reason. I would like to know why you all are criticizing her writing style or what you think she will or will not do. She created this wonderful, magical world for you and you've talked about it, analyzed it. Hasn't that been great. Do you think that it can ever be ruined? Harry Potter in my eyes will live on long after book 7 because J.K.R. has allowed me to glimpse a world and create my own along the way. I know there has to be others who feel this way. Your out there I know it. Hanna From gail at melbpc.org.au Thu May 22 10:23:46 2003 From: gail at melbpc.org.au (Gail Pamphilon) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:23:46 +1000 Subject: Snape's hair and status Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030522201002.00a07d00@popa.melbpc.org.au> No: HPFGUIDX 58515 Hello everyone, I decided to jump in and start posting. :-) I have had a theory about the Snapalicious hair for ages. I think it is quite simply that no-one has told him that he has oily hair and needs to use shampoo and conditioner specially formulated for oily hair, or that he needs to shampoo his hair twice each wash. I'll bet he has gone to the same elderly, incompetent wizard barber for years and years (probably in Hogsmeade, as he does not appear to have a home to go to), hence the bad haircuts and the continued oiliness. It's not really beyond the bounds of possibility. When we were children (admittedly that was a long time ago!) we used to use an apparently standard family shampoo that ruined our hair beyond repair. Mum finally found out when the hairdresser told her that she was sorry, but the damage couldn't be repaired and we would have to wait for new healthy hair to grow out. I also remember an elderly barber (hairdresser? it was before the 'unisex' hairdresser days) who, with all due respect to him, should have retired some time ago. He used to be good, according to Mum. And we all know that the wizarding (is that a real mediaeval word, since discontinued?) world is still in the Victorian age, don't we? ;-) What Snape needs is a good hairdresser. I had fun picturing the shock of Ron et al at the thought of a woman hairdresser washing and cutting a man's hair, and Harry and Hermione's amusement at their amazement. ;-) I would love to read about that, it would be funny. I wonder if Jo takes suggestions? Whatever gave rise to the idea that Snape is a dhampyr? Just because he's grumpy and wears an academic gown, hence the 'batlike' appearance? :-) There is nothing in the books to suggest that he is anything less than human - a lonely, unhappy human, to be sure. I picture him as having a slightly tumbledown property, perhaps a mansion or even a small castle (given the long lives of magical people and my suspicion that he comes from a long line of purebloods) that he never visits because the silence would weigh on him. Just my pet theory, anyway. Who is to say I may not be proved right? I found it hard to believe that all those teachers stayed at school over the holidays, even Christmas. It seemed odd. I suspect an explanation may be forthcoming in future books, and that we haven't had one yet because there were too many things that Jo had to cover first. There is certainly never a dull moment in these books. I don't remember any slow passages. Why do the teachers at Hogwarts and other magical schools have to be full-fledged professors? Do they answer to a magical Education Department, as well as (in the case of private schools like Hogwarts) the board of governors? Gail, who isn't witty enough to think of clever names for wizarding bands :-) c|_| From heidit at netbox.com Fri May 23 10:08:29 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 03:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP timeline in Book Magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030523100829.39471.qmail@web80506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58516 --- rachelbeth007 wrote: > When I read the Fantastic Posts upon joining this > groups, there seems to be a > debate about Hermione's birth year. According to > this timeline, Hermione was > born on September 19, 1980, which makes her younger > than both Ron and > Harry. I wasn't sure if this debate had already > been settled with information > from another source, but I thought it wouldn't hurt > to tell everyone about it. > That aspect of the timeline is also incorporated in the DVD's timeline, which JKR was involved in the development of, as she edited it and approved the final version. If you go back to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/55324 you can find the discussion we had about 5 weeks ago, when the DVD was released, about Hermione's birthday. There are some here who do not consider the DVD to be canonical, despite the input JKR had in the creation of it, so they also would likely not consider the BOOK timeline canonical (although I can find out if JKR had any input into the BOOK timeline, as I still have the reporter's email from when she interviewed me for the article). > The timeline in general is very interesting, but I > don't want to quote it all > because of the message last week about copying the > contents of articles onto > the board. Thus, I suggest you all go pick up a > copy at Book if you're > interested in seeing it all (though if I get > permission from the administrators to > put the timeline on the board I will). It seems that all the elements of the timeline have already been incorporated at the Lexicon, which you can find at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon. Of course, Steve had an essay by Ebony (of this list) well before the timeline was out: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/timeline_hermione.html#birthyear heidi Ask me about Nimbus - 2003 :: the first international Harry Potter symposium http://www.hp2003.org From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 08:47:21 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:47:21 -0000 Subject: Ron's courage. And his place in Griffyindor In-Reply-To: <22310.204.248.21.50.1053615573.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Burgess" wrote: >> We've seen enough of Ron to see that, while he is as loyal and down to > earth, bravery isn't actually his strong suit. He's not craven, by amy > means, but his fears do get in the way sometimes. I am sorry but i beg to differ. Ron may have fears (like most of us) but they seldom 'get in the way' when it comes to doing the right thing. I guess i go by the creed that "Courage is not the absence of fear but action in the face of fear" Courage is when you offer yourself as sacrifice, in the interest of the greater good. (Ron, chess scene) Courage is when you face your greatest fear in order to save your friend. (Ron following spiders) Courage is when you knowingly venture into the lair of a monster to save a loved one. (Ron in CoS) Courage is when you struggle up on a broken leg, and stand valiantly to defend your friend. (Ron POA) I think Ron has proved his courage often enough to earn his right to be a Gryffindor. And so IMO has Hermione. Their loyalty and intelligence could have got them a place in Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw respectively, but IMO, the Sorting Hat wanted their potential for great courage to be honed and used in the coming war, that is why it sent them to Griffyindor. That of course is just an opinon Shaggy (who may not be brave but will always find the courage to defend Ron) From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 03:07:46 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 03:07:46 -0000 Subject: "Foreign" students at Hogwarts (Cho) In-Reply-To: <012d01c32077$1dfb2060$6601a8c0@Cx313818a> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58518 Macha wrote: I read in an interview once not too terribly long ago (cannot locate it, sorry) that JKR has stated that Cho is actually Korean...this information really stuck with me because I, like many, thought she was of Chinese heritage although have always imagined her to be British....it'll be interesting to (possibly) find out as the books progress. > > Macha (Mama to two Asian daughters - one from China and one from VietNam) > > Me: I assumed Cho Chang was Japanese because everyone calls her Cho. This is only because I know that if she were Chinese, her name should be written Chang Cho. I figured she was Japanese also because she is shorter than Harry, and they are on the smaller side. I'm surprised to hear she is Korean. They're a bit stockier and taller. On the other hand, I'd read that they were looking in Japan to cast the role. Marci (who's best friend is from South "Central" Korea) From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Fri May 23 10:22:16 2003 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:22:16 -0000 Subject: SHIP / OOP spoiler question - any evidence for Snape loving Lily yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58519 Jo ("jotwo2003" ) wrote: >>I've deliberately avoided reading the plot summary for OOP. However, there is one thing I can no longer wait till June 21 for: do we find out anything in OOP that could be construed as evidence for the theory that Snape was friendly with or in love with Lily? Thanks in advance for your help.<< Nothing out there yet. The theory holds intrigue for me by the mere fact that while Snape will berate the memory of James right and left, not a single harsh word will he utter about Lily...not even to bait Harry. In fact, we've never heard Snape reference Lily at all...which is odd. BM From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Fri May 23 10:25:07 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:25:07 -0000 Subject: Trevor, the toad Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58520 Okay, I just started rereading the first four books in preparation for OoP and I once again came across Trevor, Neville's toad. If this has been discussed before, I humbly beg your forgiveness but I'm new and decided to throw out a few theories about what could be up with him. At the moment I'm only in chapter 6 of book 1 and Trevor was mentioned 6 times in that chapter alone. (The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters.). Now, at that point no other animal (and so far we know the Boa Constrictor, Hedwig and Scabbers) has been referred to as often as Trevor. (actually Scabbers comes close but when we take into account that Harry is talking to Ron the whole time but barely exchanges two sentences with Neville, Trevor still has overproportional "screentime". The first sentence we hear after Harry enters the platform is "Gran I've lost my toad again." (p. 94, SSpb) And when Neville is searching for him again on the train, it is made sure that we know he is lost, not once, but twice ("We've already told him we haven't seen it,", p. 105, SSpb) Later Neville and his lost toad are mentioned again when they go to the boats ("Neville, the boy who kept losing his toad." p. 111, SSpb) and even Hagrid who just met Neville already picked up that Neville is the one with the toad ("Is this your toad? [...] You there, still got your toad?", p. 112, SSpb). Now, IMO that just screams "Important" (or it could be a very clever manoeuvre to get us on the wrong track, but I'll get to that later) and when I decided to find a possible solution I came up with a few possibilities: 1. Trevor is a toad Well, obviously he is a toad, as we have been told again and again and again. What I want to say is that he is only a toad, no other meanings or hidden clues, he is just a toad who probably wants to get away from Neville because he wants to return to where he came from as toads usually do. Nothing special about him at all. 2. Trevor is Neville's pet Again, we are told this again and again and one can even go so far as to say that Neville is defined by his toad. JKR writes "the boy with the toad" and we know she is talking about Neville. Especially on pages 111f (s.a.) we can see that people who have just met Neville (Hagrid) only remember the toad abut him. In chapter 5 we have heard about toads before ("Not a toad, toads went outta fashion years ago, yeh'd be laughed at...", p. 81, SSpb) and with comment we know directly in which category we can put Neville (especially in addition to him constantly losing Trevor). He is the kid everybody makes fun of. This is only added by the fact that Neville seems to be genuinely worried about his toad (""Trevor!" cried Neville blissfully.", p. 112, SSpb) and not ashamed of him at all. (In contrast to Ron who would "lose it as quick as" (p. 104, SSpb) he could. Hereby he is not only the kid they make fun of, but it is shown a different side of him, where he doesn't care about what other people think and therefore has more self-confidence than Ron, for example. In this case Trevor is a tool to explore Neville's character and has no real meaning himself. 3. Trevor is somebody else's pet Or the familiar of a Dark Wizard/Witch (or his grandmother) that reports back to his master and seems "lost" on these occasions. About the reason why Neville would be spied on, well that depends somewhat on how long he has had Trevor. I don't think it is mentioned in the book, so I'm going to run through different possibilities. a) He got Trevor just before Hogwarts That could mean Trevor is supposed to spy on Harry or Dumbledore or even Snape (although, if I were a toad I wouldn't go near him *g*) We don't know who he got it from (I know it sounds wrong, but please bear with me, English is my second language) but as toads are seen as Old-fashioned as pets, I'd bet on his grandmother. Now is grandmother could either have been fooled from wherever she got Trevor from or she wants to keep an eye on Neville or others (s.a.) herself. b) He get Trevor before Hogwarts Okay, I have the problem, I don't really know how old toads get, but assuming that he could have lived with Neville before Hogwarts would mean that somebody wanted to spy on Neville, or perhaps controlling that his parents where really as bad off as everybody thinks? 4. Trevor is a wizard Just thought, I'd mention it but I really think the Animagus excuse has been used often enough (reasons for being with Neville s.a.) 5. Trevor is stupid He is a toad without any sense of location and always has to be found by Neville. Personally, I like 1 and 2 the best, because JKR leads us on the totally wrong track with mentioning him the whole time and in reality he is just a totally normal toad. Or with 2, I think it could show that Neville will definitely have a more important role later on because Trevor enables us to get a more in depth characterisation of him. Sabrina From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri May 23 10:59:31 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 06:59:31 EDT Subject: Snape's hair; the term "professor" (was: Snape's hair and status) Message-ID: <111.23e1f69b.2bff5913@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58521 Gail writes: >Hello everyone, I decided to jump in and start posting. :-) Welcome, Gail! >I have had a theory about the Snapalicious hair for ages. I think it is >quite simply that no-one has told him that he has oily hair and needs to >use shampoo and conditioner specially formulated for oily hair, or that he >needs to shampoo his hair twice each wash. Eloise: But...but...but... He's the *Potions* master!!! He's mastered the tricky Wofsbane Potion, yet he can't whip up a simple cure for oily hair ? Or then again, may be oily hair is even trickier to deal with magically than werewolves! But no, Gail, you're not the first person to want to get Snape's head in a basin with a good dollop of the right shampoo. Although there are plenty of willing volunteers round here who would obviate the need for a visit to the hairdresser. ;-) Actually, the very fact that he spends so much of his life in a dungeon full of steaming cauldrons is a defence that has been cited before for his having greasy hair (although IIRC it was supposed to have been so when he was still a student). Days spent bending over bubbling cauldrons of goodness know what can't help though. A more imaginative explanation once was that he is forced to oil his hair daily because otherwise it bounces out of control all over the place! A third is that it is a manifestation of a depressive personality meaning that he just doesn't care about his appearance. On a different topic, Gail: >Why do the teachers at Hogwarts and other magical schools have to be >full-fledged professors? Do they answer to a magical Education Department, >as well as (in the case of private schools like Hogwarts) the board of >governors? Eloise: You're not the first person to wonder about this and there are various theories out there about post-Hogwarts education and who is entitled to become a professor or not. I actually think that the explanation for the use of the term "professor" is quite prosaic. The Potterverse appears quite archaic culturally in some ways. The title, "Professor" did not used to have the same connotations as it has now (and of course, those connotations are themselves different on either side of the Atlantic). I think to a British reader it is perhaps a more obviously archaic usage, as for us a modern professor is the head of a university department (I was going to say faculty, but again this is a term with different US/UK meanings). It's the highest post a teaching academic can have. The title of Charlotte Bronte's _The Professor_, OTOH, refers to a *teacher*. In any case, it is a position, not a qualification. A related question that is often asked is why Snape is referred to as the Potions *master*. This is just British common usage. The odder thing is that Flitwick isn't referred to as the Charms master, Lupin as the DADA master, etc. Thre does seem to be some hint that Hogwarts answers to the MOM, from Fudge's remarks to Dumbledore at the end of GOF. Whether there is an education department within the ministry is not clear. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET Fri May 23 11:28:31 2003 From: KIDATHEART_ at CHARTER.NET (Linda) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:28:31 -0000 Subject: Trevor, the toad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58522 Sabrina wrote: > that depends > somewhat on how long he has had Trevor. I don't think it is > mentioned in the book, so I'm going to run through different > possibilities. > a) He got Trevor just before Hogwarts > That could mean Trevor is supposed to spy on Harry or Dumbledore or > even Snape (although, if I were a toad I wouldn't go near him *g*) > We don't know who he got it from (I know it sounds wrong, but please > bear with me, English is my second language) but as toads are seen > as Old-fashioned as pets, I'd bet on his grandmother. Now is > grandmother could either have been fooled from wherever she got > Trevor from or she wants to keep an eye on Neville or others (s.a.) > herself. > b) He get Trevor before Hogwarts > Okay, I have the problem, I don't really know how old toads get, > but assuming that he could have lived with Neville before Hogwarts > would mean that somebody wanted to spy on Neville, or perhaps > controlling that his parents where really as bad off as everybody > thinks? Now me(Linda): As I recall(I'm at work without the books), Neville's uncle gave Trevor to him when he got his Hogwarts letter. His family wasn't sure if he had enough magic in him to go to Hogwarts. "His uncle was so pleased that he bought him his toad."(paraphrase) As for any magical attributes that Trevor may have, IMO there must be something. After all those years of "trying to force some magic" out of Neville, I don't Uncle Algie would buy him a non-magical pet. Linda- Would the Magical Toads make a good band name? From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 23 11:45:40 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 06:45:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trevor, the toad References: Message-ID: <000501c32120$d696e830$83ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58523 Sabrina said: > 4. Trevor is a wizard > Just thought, I'd mention it but I really think the Animagus excuse > has been used often enough (reasons for being with Neville s.a.) I'd like to rule that out. In Potions one day, Snape used a potion on Trevor that successfully turned him into a tadpole. If Trevor were anything other than a toad, it probably wouldn't have worked. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From floraine_rolland at yahoo.fr Fri May 23 11:01:39 2003 From: floraine_rolland at yahoo.fr (floraine_rolland) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:01:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's hair and status In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030522201002.00a07d00@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58524 Hello, I'm new to this group and I'm french so sorry for my english. My theory about Snape's hair is that he must use some kind of potion to make them stand still for not falling in a potion. Imagine what a hair can do: explosion for example. He has long hair so if we think about it it's quite possible. I think that during the holiday, only the heads of house stay at Hogwarts. It must be part of their job. Bye Floraine From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Fri May 23 11:06:43 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:06:43 -0000 Subject: Trevor, the toad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58525 wrote: > At the moment I'm only in chapter 6 of book 1 and Trevor was > mentioned 6 times in that chapter alone. (The Journey from Platform > Nine and Three-Quarters.). Now, at that point no other animal (and > so far we know the Boa Constrictor, Hedwig and Scabbers) has been > referred to as often as Trevor. (actually Scabbers comes close but > when we take into account that Harry is talking to Ron the whole > time but barely exchanges two sentences with Neville, Trevor still > has overproportional "screentime". I think Trevor is mentioned so much because JKR wants to help us picture Neville as the boy we all had in our class rooms: Large glasses (that he often seems to lose, cfr Trevor), a bit slow, pants too short, and that everybody picks on. The boy that always forgets his homework and never got invited to birthday parties. At least, that's how I picture Neville to be, and not in the least because of the fact that he always loses the pet that he didn't really want in the first place. "Vicky" From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri May 23 12:50:05 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:50:05 -0000 Subject: Lupin & Lockhart In-Reply-To: <20030522210720.62559.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > Since we are on rants about things that bug us, here is a doozy. But for the life of me, I cannot think of any excuse for this contradiction. Lupin is a warewolf and there is no cure. There IS a difficult potion that will at least stop the worst manifistations of it so that he merely turns into a physical wolf but keeps his human mental bearings. > > BUT, in the book before, Lockhart describes performing an extremely complicated and difficult spell that turned a warewolf back into a man and freed the village of this terror. Now, of course Lockhart was a fraud and a liar. But he merely borrowed valid stories of other people's daring do. Which means that SOMEBODY cast this spell and it works! If the spell itself was a fraud, he wouldn't have dared describe it in a book of course. Me: Remember also, that Lockhart memoried charmed the wizards and witches who actually performed the spells. Most likely, Lockhart charmed this wizard early in his research so he could take credit for it. So the one wizard who maybe could have cured all the werewolves in the world doesn't remember how. This goes to show just how truly depraved Lockhart was. That in mind, it does leave the possiblity that Lupin could be cured later on if the charm was re-discovered. Of course, then in true literary fashion, he would have to die a horrible death so that it would seem horrible tragic. Serena From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri May 23 12:57:52 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:57:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Place (was Heirs of Houses) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58527 In a message dated 5/22/2003 4:57:02 PM Central Standard Time, horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com writes: > He volunteered to be Harry's > second in a wizard duel with Malfoy in first year. Just picking some nits here but you must admit he's the one who got Harry into the duel in the first place. Harry didn't even know what a wizard's duel was until Ron accepted the challenge and named himself Harry's second. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri May 23 12:42:07 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:42:07 -0000 Subject: "Foreign" students at Hogwarts (Cho) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > > I assumed Cho Chang was Japanese because everyone calls her Cho. This > is only because I know that if she were Chinese, her name should be > written Chang Cho. I figured she was Japanese also because she is > shorter than Harry, and they are on the smaller side. I'm surprised > to hear she is Korean. They're a bit stockier and taller. On the > other hand, I'd read that they were looking in Japan to cast the role. > > Marci (who's best friend is from South "Central" Korea) Actually, if she were Japanses it would still be Chang Cho (Japanese also put surnames first). Also, the name Chang doesn't sound very Japanese to me. I've always assumed she was British of Chinese descent. As for the placement of surnames, most Asian-Americans I've met choose to use our order when introducing themselves when in our country(ies). From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri May 23 13:28:01 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:28:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potter Lineage Message-ID: <7e.3923ccc1.2bff7be1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58529 In a message dated 5/22/2003 10:20:37 PM Central Standard Time, hp at plum.cream.org writes: > That particular theory aside, it would make "conceptual" sense for Harry to > > be born of a purely Magical father and a purely Muggle mother in order to > underline various themes of the series, including the concept of pureblood > heritage being unimportant, for starters But Lily isn't a "purely" Muggle mother? She's a witch who happens to be Muggle born. A purely muggle parent to me is more inline with Seamus' parentage. .His dad's a muggle (not a Muggle born wizard) and his mum's a witch. Hmm Seamus and Riddle have have something in common. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Fri May 23 14:22:44 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:22:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting and Character Traits (WAS: Heirs of Ravenclaw & Hufflepuff References: <1053568565.6163.2365.m2@yahoogroups.com> <22310.204.248.21.50.1053615573.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> Message-ID: <005a01c32136$c7181260$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Burgess" wrote: > We've seen enough of Ron to see that, while he is as loyal and down to > earth, bravery isn't actually his strong suit. He's not craven, by amy > means, but his fears do get in the way sometimes. > Several others have already argued that Ron has plenty of courage as exemplified by his willingness to go forth into dangerous situations despite his fears, so I'll just echo that and move on. > > I don't see Hermione's actions as brave and daring as much as I see them > as the logical response to a given situation. She analyzes the situations > and proceeds with the clearest course of action, in the understanding that > she is ready to roll. While that certainly takes courage, it takes far > more trust in one's intellect. > > Ron, on the other hand, is much more emotional and much less logical. We > see it over and over again - The Devil's Snare is the example that > immediately comes to mind. Ah, movie contamination! In the book, Ron and Harry were equally in its grip and Hermione became flustered and needed the others' assistance to realize she could free them by conjuring a fire (remember the classic line "Are you a witch or not?"). Kloves and Columbus have not been kind to Ron. ;-( > My background is professional military, and one of the things that has > I've noticed over time is that the most effective leaders rely on great > strategists to come up with their plans, which the leader implements. I > see Ron and Harry's relationship evolving the same way. With one or two > exceptions, the great Generals have relied on great planners to come up > with truly great solutions to tactical and strategic problems. Great > plans rely on great intelligence. Hermione is a great correlator of facts > and information, and provides the intell the rest of the group needs to > make good decisions. [snip] > > Ron is a terrific lieutenant, but isn't the born leader that Harry is. I > still see Ron and Hermione as being in the "wrong" houses (as far as the > traits of the houses go). But doesn't this argument confuse bravery with leadership? Harry is unquestionably an inspiring leader -- he has an outstanding moral compass that show itself best when stressed, an ability to synthesize and draw conclusions from the information provided to him by his lieutenants, and most of all he is extraordinarily calm and resourceful under fire. But the dictionary definition of bravery is an willingness to face danger and fear. None of the three have ever backed down or run away, no matter how frightened. Harry may be more successful, but that's because he's more resourceful under stress, not because he is more brave. You've correctly pointed out that neither Ron nor Hermione have the same leadership skills. Both on occasion have frozen or become confused under pressure. Hermione with the Devil's Snare, and she froze when she faced the boggart in the closet at the DADA final; Ron froze in the forest with Aragog, but he did manage to pick up Fang on the way out, and in the DADA final he was confused by the hinkypunk). Harry, on the other hand, is at his best in such situations. > So, once again, I ask "Are Ron and Hermione in the right houses?" Now > that we have that little bit of house name confusion out of the way, the > real question still stands. > > There are two possible canonical explanations, as far as I'm concerned. > [snip] The > second (much more palatable, I assure you) is that the Hat is actually up > on current events and knows what's going on. It doesn't sort the houses > based on the students' abilities, but on the "best mix" to protect the > school, and by extension, the WW. If this was true, then each of the > non-Slytherin houses would have a mix of what we would call "true > Ravenclaws, etc.". We've seen this before, in the Pettigrew fiasco from > James and Lily's time at Hogwarts. > Actually, there are many possible explanations for the Sorting Hat's choices. Since the Sorting Hat contains some of the Founders' brains, I suspect that it knows quite a bit; I've even theorized that it could be omniscient. However, it's not likely, IMO, that many people could be characterized as *true* [name house]. Most people share, to a greater or lesser degree, characteristics of all the houses. Hermione has the cleverness of a Ravenclaw, and Ron has the loyalty of a Hufflepuff. My theory is that the Hat doesn't simply try to figure out which characteristic is most dominant, or try to get a mix in each house. Rather, it looks to which house will best help the individual recognize and develop those traits. Hermione doesn't need any help sharpening her intellect, but she underestimates her own bravery (as in her speech to Harry in PS/SS before she drinks the potion). Ron has significant fears, the biggest one of which, in my book, is his fear of failure. What better place than Gryffindor to help him come to grips with that fear? As for Pettigrew, he hasn't shown himself to be fit for any house to date. He's not ambitious, or he wouldn't have been content to live as a rat for 12 years, he's unquestionably not loyal, and he's not believed to be clever, either (though he does share some of Harry's resourcefulness, which he employs to further his own selfish ends). And bravery? Long ago there was a debate about whether Peter showed bravery by his willingness to cut off his own body parts. I said those actions didn't count because the alternative was certain death. But there are three more books to go, and many opportunities left for Pettigrew to demonstrate some bravery. I think he may surprise us at some point; remember, we think of Pettigrew as a worthless little sycophant, but I don't think James, Sirius and Lupin let him hang around with them out of pity; we just haven't seen his full character to date. Besides, Dumbledore did tell Harry that "the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 14:39:30 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 07:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character descriptions (was OoP covers...) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030523024616.0097cab0@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: <20030523143930.92388.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58531 --- GulPlum wrote: > >Granted, nothing has been stated in canon to say > James and Lily > >immediately married or immediately started having > kids, but by speculating > >this way, one can figure that the youngest they can > be is 35. They > >could've been older than this, but it gives one a > starting point. > > Which was my entire point. That indicates only the > youngest they can > possibly be, but it's based *entirely* on > assumptions, and not actual > canon. We have no indications in canon, even after > four books, that Lily & > James married and had Harry straight out of Hogwarts > (or even that Harry is > their first child!), and thus until the PoA > revelations, they could quite > reasonably be assumed to be much older. Well, I don't typically read interviews and the like, but I thought at one point JKR said that Snape was about 36 and I think that was referring to POA. I just assumed James and Lily to be the same age as him. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 23 14:44:08 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:44:08 -0000 Subject: JKR as Butler; James' Blood Status; Mea Culpa on Wagga Wagga; Werewolf Cure Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58532 Hanna wrote: > I find that J.K.R. has kept character descriptions vague for a > couple of reasons. The details were left sparce to > boost our imaginations, but the plot remains thick because that's > what really matters most! Now me: There's a terrific essay on the Lexicon on this very topic (JKR as "butler"): http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/descriptions.html I agree with you that JKR's details are sparse at times, and I think she keeps them limited in order to keep the plot moving at its terrific pace. However, it's not as if she leaves us with no details about what places or persons look like; she just does it in a way that's extremely subtle. The descriptions are woven into the story, so they don't slow you down, they're just part of the movement of the plot (e.g., Lucius' cold grey eyes are referenced as he glares at Dumbledore; Dudley's fat bottom is referenced as he clutches it while running out of the room when faced with the Weasleys; Hermione's large teeth are referenced when hit with Malfoy's hex; Ron's freckles, red hair and long nose are referenced when the Polyjuice Potion starts to wear off, I could go on and on...). In contrast, for example, I just finished Margaret Atwood's "Oryx and Crake," and the only description she gives of Crake is that he's: (1) thin; (2) wears dark clothing; and (3) hasn't lost his hair as he ages. That's it! Linda asked: > Do we know from canon that James Potter was a pure blood? Now me: Canon doesn't tell us whether or not James Potter was a pure blood. I believe that Bowman Wright was one of James Potter's ancestors (based on the statement in QTTA that Wright was from Godric's Hollow, where the Potters were living when Voldemort attacked them). So, assuming this is correct, and assuming the Chocolate Frog card about Wright is also correct, James would not be a pure blood (since Wright's Chocolate Frog card states that Wright was born to a non- wizard father and a witch). But this conclusion requires a lot of assumptions, and I'm not sure how much stock to put in the Chocolate Frog cards (although reportedly JKR approved them). Pippin wrote (in response to my saying that "Wagga Wagga" was a made- up name): > Lockhart did not invent Wagga Wagga and neither did JKR. It is > a real place. Me again: Whoops! I should have known better than to make such an assumption before doing my homework. My apologies. Serena wrote: > Most likely, Lockhart charmed this wizard early in his research so > he could take credit for it. So the one wizard who maybe could have > cured all the werewolves in the world doesn't remember how. This > goes to show just how truly depraved Lockhart was. Me again: This is a terrific theory ? much better than my "he made it all up" one! I had never thought about it this way ? thanks for the insight! ~Phyllis From heidit at netbox.com Fri May 23 15:18:39 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:18:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character descriptions (was OoP covers...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58533 ** I thought at one point JKR said that Snape was about 36 and I think that was referring to POA. I just assumed James and Lily to be the same age as him.** She did say that in a chat a few years back, after GoF was released, but she never specified whether he was "35 or 36" during GoF, PS/SS or after GoF. Also, while we know that he and James were the same year, we don't know from canon whether Lily was in the same year as well. For all we know, she could be a bit older (like jkr is older than her husband Neil). Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org From meboriqua at aol.com Fri May 23 15:40:28 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:40:28 -0000 Subject: Ron's Courage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58534 Dave wrote: > > Ron, on the other hand, is much more emotional and much less logical. We see it over and over again - The Devil's Snare is the example that immediately comes to mind. Ron isn't brave, but will 'body guard' Harry and Hermione to a fault ("eat slugs" is the best example I have right now). Linda responded: > My point is that the Weasley children were raised right. They know the difference between what is right and what is easy and will make the right choices. IMHO, finding the courage to act upon that choice will not be a problem.> I agree with Dave in that Ron is definitely driven by his emotions. At times, it is even quite a problem. However, I think Linda made some excellent points about Ron's bravery. In fact, I don't think the fact that he is emotional has anything to do with his courage. We all know Ron's first real example of bravery came in SS when he was willing to sacrifice himself during the chess game. Linda pointed out another example, when Ron went right in after Harry to follow those spiders. Just because he is terrified of spiders doesn't make it any less brave that he chooses to follow them. Isn't that sometimes what bravery is all about - doing the very thing that scares you the most? --jenny from ravenclaw ********************************************* From jodel at aol.com Fri May 23 16:21:47 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:21:47 EDT Subject: Arthur and Molly Weasly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58535 bboy_mn' writes: << During this conversation about Ogg the grounds/game keeper, Molly Weasley does NOT reminise about Hargrid or mention him in anyway. I have to assume if he was at Hogwarts being trained as an apprentice under Ogg, Molly would have know who he was, and knowing how good of friends Harry and Hagrid are, she would have spoken of him. >> It suddenly occurs to me that Molly may not have mentioned Hagrid in her Ogg stories BECAUSE Hagrid is still on staff and one of her kids' teachers. You just don't tell a pack of adolescents (particularly ones like Fred and George) the kind of silly antics that their *teachers* got up to when they were teens. It's bad for dicipline and undermines authority. Besides, we don't even *know* that Molly *didn't* mention Hagrid. Rowling doesn't actually repeat any of the anecdotes that Molly related, just tells us that Ogg figured in them. Hagrid might have had a great deal of presence in those tales, Rowling just didn't specify as much. And why should she? The whole incident was a tidbit tossed off in passing. She's been letting us fill in the blanks again. -JOdel From drmm at fuuko.com Fri May 23 16:22:39 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:22:39 -0000 Subject: "Foreign" students at Hogwarts (Cho) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > Actually, if she were Japanses it would still be Chang Cho (Japanese > also put surnames first). Also, the name Chang doesn't sound very > Japanese to me. > > I've always assumed she was British of Chinese descent. As for the > placement of surnames, most Asian-Americans I've met choose to use > our order when introducing themselves when in our country(ies). Cho Chang is most definatly not a Japanese name. The Japanese language doesn't have a hard "g" sound. If Chang were written in Japanese characters, it would be written cha-n-gu. I've also met a *lot* of Japanese people and I have yet to meet one named Cho or Chang (I live in Japan right now). I doubt she's Korean, as the name doesn't seem similar to any Korean names I've heard. Of course, I heard a rumor that Korean pop star BoA (she's quite a good singer and is supposed to be fluent in English) was going to be cast as Cho Chang, which may be where the Korean theory started, but that doesn't mean that JKR intended Cho to be Korean. I suspect that Cho was meant to be Chinese. DrMM From monkshoodgardens at cox.net Fri May 23 16:44:59 2003 From: monkshoodgardens at cox.net (monkshoodgardens at cox.net) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:44:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Foreign" students at Hogwarts (Cho) References: Message-ID: <008e01c3214a$a6583140$6601a8c0@Cx313818a> No: HPFGUIDX 58537 drmm writes: I doubt she's Korean, as the name doesn't seem similar to any Korean names I've heard. Of course, I heard a rumor that Korean pop star BoA (she's quite a good singer and is supposed to be fluent in English) was going to be cast as Cho Chang, which may be where the Korean theory started, but that doesn't mean that JKR intended Cho to be Korean. I suspect that Cho was meant to be Chinese. DrMM Now Macha: I was terribly surprised to read that Cho was Korean as her (surname) sounded more distinctly Chinese...I read that information in a JKR interview- she didn't seem to be indicating that this information had anything to do with casting but more of a statement of Cho's ethnicity. Macha (Wishing very much that I could remember/find this source) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 23 19:24:11 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:24:11 -0000 Subject: Trevor, the toad/pets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > Now me(Linda): > > As I recall(I'm at work without the books), Neville's uncle gave > Trevor to him when he got his Hogwarts letter. His family wasn't sure > if he had enough magic in him to go to Hogwarts. "His uncle was so > pleased that he bought him his toad."(paraphrase) As for any magical > attributes that Trevor may have, IMO there must be something. After > all those years of "trying to force some magic" out of Neville, I > don't Uncle Algie would buy him a non-magical pet. Quite right. Trevor is - Magical Toad. Neville's pet. OK - Hogwarts letter specifically mentions that a student is allowed to bring a toad OR a cat OR an owl. It doesn't mention any other sort of pets. Also, why capitalize that OR? Harry gets an owl from Hagrid. Hagrid gives Harry some reasons why the other two animals aren't what he's buying - and that Owls are useful - carry post and all. Somehow owls do find the reciever, no matter where he or she is. >From the beginning, we know that Neville has a toad (his losing it sort of brings it up every now and then). Hermione buys a cat with special ability to detect Animagus trying to hide. (and Ron's rat is picked, and he now has an owl) So there - we have all three, but we have yet to find what the toad can do. Perhaps these three have some magical qualities, that together raise enormously strong magic? One more thing: the 5th book is titled Order of the Phoenix - if Harry gains a new pet (probably losing Hedwig in the beginning) - and that pet just happens to be a phoenix, these Four Gryffindors all have different pets, and together, who knows what these can do... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 23 19:06:06 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:06:06 -0000 Subject: Ron's Courage/prejudice? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58539 jenny : > > We all know Ron's first real example of bravery came in SS when he > was willing to sacrifice himself during the chess game. Linda > pointed out another example, when Ron went right in after Harry to > follow those spiders. Just because he is terrified of spiders > doesn't make it any less brave that he chooses to follow them. Isn't > that sometimes what bravery is all about - doing the very thing that > scares you the most? I myself think that's what it is - to face your fears. Like Ron following spiders. The twins or Hagrid OTOH wouldn't show bravery in following spiders (they think spiders make great pets). Sacrifice himself in that chess-game for the cause. Who could claim that as NOT brave? It's not like he's being suicidal with it... For someone born amongst wizard-prejudices, Ron isn't prejudiced. He knows of them, though... He doesn't mind that Hagrid's Mom was giantess - though he knows exactly why some would. And about werewolves... so he does say "Keep away from me, werewolf" - but later chooses to be the one chained to Pettigrew AFTER Lupin had volunteered as the other. And well - it was near full moon, and prejudice or not, werewolves ARE dangerous (particularly if they forget to take the wolfsbane potion like Lupin had done). So well, Ron's overcoming his prejudices where Harry&Hermione don't even know that such exist. -- Finwitch From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 23 19:48:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:48:23 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Molly Weasly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > bboy_mn' writes: > > << During this conversation about Ogg the grounds/game keeper, Molly >Weasley does NOT reminise about Hargrid or mention him in anyway. >> > > It suddenly occurs to me that Molly may not have mentioned Hagrid > in her Ogg stories BECAUSE Hagrid is still on staff and one of her > kids' teachers. ...edited... > > Besides, we don't even *know* that Molly *didn't* mention Hagrid. > Rowling doesn't actually repeat any of the anecdotes that Molly > related, just tells us that Ogg figured in them. ...edited.. > > -JOdel Bboy_mn: The mention of Ogg is in narative. That is, Harry or the narator are relating to us the general nature of the conversations. A whole morining in a few short sentences. In a sense, it is related as Harry's memory of the event. The quote- "Harry has a very enhoable moring walking over the sunny grounds with Bill and Mrs. Weasley, showing hem the Beaubatons carriage and the Drumstrang ship. Mrs. Weasley was intrigued by the Whomping Willow, which had been planted after she had left the school, and reminised AT LENGTH about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man called Ogg." The books have mentioned several times that Hagrid doesn't talk about that time of his life (his expulsion). Although in CoS, we do find out what happened, it has never been discussed by H/R/H and Hagrid in the books; his feelings, how hard it was to see the other kids become wizards, how long it took to finish his apprenticeship, etc.... I firmly have to believe if Molly had spoken of Hagrid in even the most general way, Harry would have been intrigued and curious enough by it to have made a mental note of it. In a sense, the narative we read, are Harry's mental notes. If it was about my friend, I would have certainly been very attentive to what was said. So, lacking any mention in narative about Hagrid in this conversation, I still take the stand that Molly and Arthur were at Hogwarts before Hagrid. Molly wouldn't have had to go into all the 'escapades' of Hargrid, it could be something as simple as, 'I remember seeing Hargid following Ogg around every day as Ogg preformed his gamekeeping duties'. I do agree with you that Molly probably wouldn't have gone into intimate personal stories about Hagrid, but even without that there would be plenty to say. And this wasn't Molly in a conversation with all of her kids; it was Bill, her oldest, and Harry. This was a very personal private conversation. That would have certainly opened to door for some basic comments that Molly would not have said, in general public conversation. We need to look at what is likely, not what is possible. It is possible that Molly went to school at the sametime as or after Hagrid, but I personally don't think it is very likely. Just a thought. bboy_mn From groml at cards.lanck.net Fri May 23 20:25:26 2003 From: groml at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:25:26 +0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR as Butler; James' Blood Status; Mea Culpa on Wagga Wagga; Werewolf Cure Message-ID: <00b201c32169$731bf2c0$7a42983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 58541 Pippin wrote (in response to my saying that "Wagga Wagga" was a made- >up name): > >> Lockhart did not invent Wagga Wagga and neither did JKR. It is >> a real place. > >Me again: > >Whoops! I should have known better than to make such an assumption >before doing my homework. My apologies. Maria: Wagga Wagga is a rather large town some 160 km from Canberra. The name must be in one of the many languages of Australia. I read somewhere that it means 'place of many crows'. From WFeuchter at msn.com Fri May 23 21:22:23 2003 From: WFeuchter at msn.com (hpoldfan) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:22:23 -0000 Subject: Ron's Courage/prejudice? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58542 > jenny : > > > > > We all know Ron's first real example of bravery came in SS when he > > was willing to sacrifice himself during the chess game. Linda > > pointed out another example, when Ron went right in after Harry to > > follow those spiders. Just because he is terrified of spiders > > doesn't make it any less brave that he chooses to follow them. > Isn't > > that sometimes what bravery is all about - doing the very thing > that > > scares you the most? > > The definition of courage from Websters 'mental or moral strength to venture, persever, and withstand danger, fear and difficulty' Ron has demonstrated both mental and moral strength many times. Only Harry shows more courage than Ron, and that is only because he has Ron behind him! Look what he went through in GOF when he and Ron were not talking. Bill From cgbrennan at aol.com Fri May 23 21:10:26 2003 From: cgbrennan at aol.com (cgbrennan2003) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:10:26 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Molly Weasly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58543 Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jodel at a... wrote: > > bboy_mn' writes: > > > > << During this conversation about Ogg the grounds/game keeper, Molly > >Weasley does NOT reminise about Hargrid or mention him>> > > > - JOdel > > Bboy_mn: > > > So, lacking any > mention in narative about Hagrid in this conversation, I still take > the stand that Molly and Arthur were at Hogwarts before Hagrid. > > We need to look at what is likely, not what is possible. It is > possible that Molly went to school at the sametime as or after Hagrid, > but I personally don't think it is very likely. > > Just a thought. > Okay, please check my facts and my math, but at the time of CofS, isn't it established that Hagrid is 63 years old? The diary is from 50 years ago, and Hagrid was 13 when it happened. If Mrs. Weasly was at school before Hagrid, that would put her at least in her sixties. Ginny is 11 years old in CofS, so Mrs. Weasly would have had to have her in her fifties when she gave birth to Ginny! Thoughts? Colleen From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri May 23 22:29:21 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:29:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and the deal with the devil Message-ID: <1ef.98f4dfc.2bfffac1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58544 In a message dated 5/19/03 9:03:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > Support: Well, this would be the ultimate twist, I think. > > Denial: But I think the twist would make it too twisted. Lily's > sacrifice is, I believe, the pivotal event in the story (not > necessarily the books, but the saga itself.) One Muggle born woman, > apparently just through love, gave her baby the power to defeat the > most evil wizard of modern times. I do hope that is not tainted. > > Darrin > -- But this is just too much fun. :) *shakes head* I see how it is Darrin - Evil!Lily is fun, but Good!Slyth is impossible...*grin* Back to the thread - I like Evil!Lily - well, maybe not *evil* but at least Desperate!Lily. I think the plot twist would be good in a way, because it would show that thinsg aren't always black or white. Would that make Lily good or evil? She betrayed James to the most evil wizard in a hundred years, but she did it to save her son. How would everyone view her? How would they view Harry? Would anyone think less of Harry because of what his mother did for him? It has to have been for Harry. I don't think it was just to save herself - that'd be cool, but it's too much for HP. I don't really think it was pivotal (Lily's sacrifice). I mean, it was important because Harry lived, but IMHO what Harry does with the life he was given is more important than how he got it. What we choose to become and all that jazz. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Stupid joke of the day: "How many Slytherins does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None - there's not electricity in the Wizarding World!" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri May 23 23:18:07 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 01:18:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Criticisms of Dumbledore WAS Re:OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long References: Message-ID: <003201c32181$93204810$550a6750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58545 Anna wrote: The criticism of Dumbledore that I most take issue with here is the one about him sending Harry to live with the Dursleys. Now, my sister and I both had supremely bad childhoods; we were sent around foster homes from an early age, and they're not known for being wonderful places to grow up in. But my sister got an attachment disorder, which we believe was due to being abused by our natural mum. Now, having grown up with her, and living with my own neuroses, I can honestly say that if the MAGIC DISHWASHER theory is correct, and Dumbledore has been grooming Harry to become the 'one' to defeat Voldemort since day one, it may have been the best place to put him. Now, before you all get crazy and have a go at me about condoning Dumbledore's decision to put Harry in an abusive environment, let me explain why I think this. If we take a look at all of the other 'world change' stuff out there, like the LOTR, Buffy at the moment, The Matrix, etc, and we take a look at the heroines or heroes in particular, as has already been said somewhere on this list, the events that are going to take place are going to change everybody involved irrevocably, and not necessarily for the better. A person who has already dealt with hardship is much more likely to be able to deal with the events that are obviously coming. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger and all that stuff. As long as you don't have to deal with the betrayal of those close, as long as they stay loyal, you can pretty much withstand anything. Also, you tend to think less of yourself, and do what's best for everyone else. Unless, of course you're permanently emotionally damaged, and Dumbledore obviously had Arabella Figg looking out for him in this respect. If Harry had been damaged by his experiences at the Dursley's, he would have started acting out from an early age, and it would have been visible to all who knew him. Me (Izaskun): I agree with you, utterly and completly. I had a very hard childhood as well, I was very lucky, of course, I know I could have been a teen criminal, but I'm not, this experience made me strong, helped me a lot afterwards, made me a more mature child and, I think, a more responsible adult. Of course, I don't think It's a good thing to have a hell of a childhood, but if you survive, if you can focus and get through it, you can manage almost anything afterwards. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com Fri May 23 23:26:12 2003 From: morgan_d_yyh at yahoo.com (Morgan D.) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] disagreement with character descriptions and general In-Reply-To: <1053701094.5334.19943.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030523232612.15647.qmail@web11007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58546 Hanna joined us and said: > Hello, I am new to this forum, but I have read many of the emails I > have received so far. Someone addressed the character descriptions. Me (Morgan): I'm the one to blame for bringing it up, but not for what the thread turned out, I'm afraid. ^__^ Hanna pointed out: > I > find that J.K.R. has kept character descriptions vague for a couple > of reasons. First and foremost, she is an artist and maybe she wants > us to have to use our creativity. Kids are very creative and use > their imaginations very well so why not us adults? Have we been > spoonfed so long that we are no longer able to think for ourselves? I > believe any great artist inspires us to create. That is exactly what > J.K. Rowling has done for me, inspired me to create a world inside my > own mind. Her brief and or vague character descriptions are > intentional, use your head! Children do it so can you! What fun would > the books be if we didn't put our own twists in them. Morgan: It's funny how a few members felt the need to defend JKR's descriptions. I simply pointed out they were economic, that she picks a few adjectives for each character and remains loyal to them. I wasn't saying she's a good or bad writer *because* of that, just saying that's what she usually does. That's mostly a matter of style, and also of pragmatism. For many reasons -- which I won't list here because I don't want to bore you all to death -- I think her choice is consistent with the kind of books she's writing. I don't have specific preferences in the matter. Short or long descriptions are not what make me point this as a good book and that as a bad book. Or are you implying that Tolkien's careful, elaborate descriptions don't encourage readers to use their imagination? I brought the subject up remarking on something else altogether: that *despite* JKR's succinct descriptions, even intelligent readers that have read the books five times often forget those descriptions when they picture the characters in their minds (and fics, fanart, HPfGU posts, etc.) Maybe it's just me, but I find that really peculiar. If she tells us only five things about one character's looks, and one of them is that he has black hair, why many fans are so sure he is blond and blink several times in surprise when someone points to a quote in canon that clearly states he has black hair? I saw stuff like that happen lots of times, in this group, with people I know, with ficwriters I talk to, with myself. And very often movie contamination could not explain that phenomenon. Hanna then complained: > Why is imagination such a lost ability for adults. Morgan: I'm not sure what adults you're talking about. Honestly, if this group has an imagination problem, it's *excess* of it. (And I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing.) Some of the theories this group has come up with are simply amazing -- maybe not probable or even plausible, but I can't for the life of me deny that they are tremendously creative. Hanna also said: > I think > most of your lack of faith in J.K.R. is disturbing. She has knocked > us off our feet with the first four books. I have no reason to > believe the last three will be any different. Morgan: This is another subject altogether, but I'll offer you my two knuts on it too. Do I have complete faith in JKR? No. And I find disturbing that anyone would expect me to think differently. Do I like her books? Mostly, yes. Am I a HP fan? Definitely. Does that mean I can't be critical and rational about her works? Hopefully not. I love reading mystery books. Even bad ones. I enjoy them as I play the game of trying to figure out the plot before the author reveals it to me. That's what kept me reading the HP books even after CoS, whose plot is, in my humble opinion, full of gigantic holes and inconsistencies. JKR knocked me off my feet with the last two books of the series, that's for sure. PoA and GoF turned me into a true fan. So I'd say that, judging by the past, my chances of seeing a great future is around 50% ^__^ (You can't think of this as a serious statement, of course. I just want you to understand that I have my reasons not to be as optimistic as you are.) Then Hanna said: > We must remember that > everything that happens has been mapped out by Rowling from the > beginning. For 5 years she sat and detailed what would happen in each > of her 7 book series. Everything that is or isn't there is that way > for a reason. Morgan: Well, call me a heretic non-believer, but I don't buy that. Sure, maybe she's a genius and she did draw some perfect plan ages ago and the books are going exactly as planned. It's possible. Just not very probable. I think of JKR as a human being. Bound to make mistakes. Bound to second-guess herself. Bound to make poor decisions every now and then. Self-experience tells me that not everything that is or isn't there is that way for a reason. Experience as a reader who's read many stories that were carefully planned in advance but did contain major plot holes anyway. Experience as a writer that works pretty much the same way and knows that sometimes we miss some important details here and there. What I heard from her interviews (the Weasley she was going to create and later decided against, the development of Rita's character, etc.) led me to believe she's not that different from what self-experience tells me. Furthermore, she already admitted a couple of FLINTs -- bits that were there and shouldn't have been. So if she *now* comes to tell me that everything is there for a reason, well, forgive me for not believing it. > I would like to know why you all are criticizing her > writing style or what you think she will or will not do. Careful with generalisations. We are not *all* criticising her writing style. Actually, when I do it, there's always someone to disagree with me. ^__^ I have my complaints about her writing style, yes. Plot holes, the "bumpy" narration every now and then... and sorry, her lacking math does bug me a lot. And there's the stuff we don't know if it'll be better developed or not, like the treatment to the non-Gryffindor Houses and the non-Gryffindorish characters. I can easily say that if she gives them the same treatment in the remaining books, I'll be terribly disappointed. And of course, there're the selfish reasons to be worried: fear that she'll kill my favourite characters or turn them into characters I don't like so much... fear that she'll use the books to defend moral principles I'm against... fear that some things I've been waiting to see since the third book will never happen... I'm entitled to my opinions, aren't I? Hanna: > She created > this wonderful, magical world for you and you've talked about it, > analyzed it. Hasn't that been great. Morgan: Yes. Hanna: > Do you think that it can ever be ruined? Morgan: Sure. ^__^ I lost count of the number of stories I've read that started really well and eventually turned into something awful. Hanna continued: > Harry Potter in my eyes will live on long after book 7 > because J.K.R. has allowed me to glimpse a world and create my own > along the way. Morgan: Good for you, Hanna. So far the same has happened to me, but I'm very aware that she can make casual decisions that will pull me away from the world she created (not to mention demolish the one I've been creating inside my mind, but that's probably beside the point). And Hanna finished: > I know there has to be others who feel this way. Your > out there I know it. Morgan: I actually thought most people out there felt that way. One of the joys of finding this group was finding at least a few people who don't feel that showing criticism make us less fans of HP than those who only have good things to say about the books. Morgan D. (who apologises to Richard for her text editor, which dumbly "corrects" the P in 'GulPlum' to lower-case when she's not looking) Hogwarts Letters - http://www.hogwartsletters.hpg.com.br __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 24 00:06:56 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:06:56 -0000 Subject: Lily and the deal with the devil In-Reply-To: <1ef.98f4dfc.2bfffac1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58547 talia wrote: > > *shakes head* I see how it is Darrin - Evil!Lily is fun, but Good!Slyth is > impossible...*grin* > Heyheyheyheyhey... I never said 'impossible," just "not happened yet." > Back to the thread - > I like Evil!Lily - well, maybe not *evil* but at least Desperate!Lily. I > think the plot twist would be good in a way, because it would show that things aren't always black or white. Would that make Lily good or evil? She betrayed James to the most evil wizard in a hundred years, but she did it to save her son. How would everyone view her? How would they view Harry? Would anyone think less of Harry because of what his mother did for him? It has to have been for Harry. I don't think it was just to save herself - that'd be cool, but it's too much for HP. Again, HOW did she betray him? We know that he said, "Run Lily, I'll hold him off" which indicates there wasn't a "take him instead of me" spur-of-the- moment kind of deal. And if he already had Pettigrew, why would V-Mort need her? And in the vein of my "Just how stupid is Snape?" theory on the Shrieking Shack, I wonder "just how stupid is Lily?" for trusting V-Mort to keep his word? > I don't really think it was pivotal (Lily's sacrifice). I mean, it was > important because Harry lived, but IMHO what Harry does with the life he was given > is more important than how he got it. What we choose to become and all that jazz. > I think that without Lily's sacrifice there is no Harry. And if there is no Harry, there is no story. No matter what he chooses to make of his life, the fact that he has a choice is because of her. Darrin -- Sacrifice would be a great name for a band. From pattigray at yahoo.com Fri May 23 22:51:57 2003 From: pattigray at yahoo.com (pattigray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:51:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's hair; the term "professor" (was: Snape's hair and status) In-Reply-To: <111.23e1f69b.2bff5913@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > > On a different topic, > > Gail: > >Why do the teachers at Hogwarts and other magical schools have to be > >full-fledged professors? Do they answer to a magical Education Department, > >as well as (in the case of private schools like Hogwarts) the board of > >governors? > > Eloise: > You're not the first person to wonder about this and there are various > theories out there about post-Hogwarts education and who is entitled to become a > professor or not. > > I actually think that the explanation for the use of the term "professor" is > quite prosaic. The Potterverse appears quite archaic culturally in some ways. > The title, "Professor" did not used to have the same connotations as it has > now (and of course, those connotations are themselves different on either side > of the Atlantic). I think to a British reader it is perhaps a more obviously > archaic usage, as for us a modern professor is the head of a university > department (I was going to say faculty, but again this is a term with different US/UK > meanings). It's the highest post a teaching academic can have. The title of > Charlotte Bronte's _The Professor_, OTOH, refers to a *teacher*. In any case, > it is a position, not a qualification. > Just to muddy the cross-Atlantic waters a little more..in the US "Professor" is often more a title than indication of rank. For instance in most US universities, the title "Doctor" is more prestigious than "Professor", as Professor can be used to address a teacher at the university level who does not have a Ph.D. Most faculty members (who have Ph.D's) are addressed as Doctor. However a full Professor is usually the highest rank. Confused? A department chair is also often a figurehead, or the most senior faculty member in a department. This is not necessarily a sought after position :) Patti From akhillin at rcn.com Fri May 23 21:19:48 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:19:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hypothesis for Trelawney's First Real Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58549 Wayne Cochran : Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:02 PM I was thinking, considering that Trelawney's 'fake' predictions are always of death and destruction, maybe her first 'real' prediction was as well. Perhaps her first real prediction was that they would be betrayed by someone close to them. Your thoughts have mirrored mine, to some extent. I wondered if her first real prediction was Lily and James' death, which would be similar to your betrayal theory. Predicting Harry's death might then be a favorite pastime for her, given her spot-on success with his parents. akh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From debmclain at yahoo.com Sat May 24 02:35:16 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 02:35:16 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Molly Weasly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58550 Colleen/"cgbrennan2003" wrote: > Okay, please check my facts and my math, but at the time of CofS, > isn't it established that Hagrid is 63 years old? The diary is from > 50 years ago, and Hagrid was 13 when it happened. If Mrs. Weasly was > at school before Hagrid, that would put her at least in her sixties. > Ginny is 11 years old in CofS, so Mrs. Weasly would have had to have > her in her fifties when she gave birth to Ginny! > Thoughts? Me: Well... if wizards and witches can live up to 150-200 years old, why shouldn't they be able to have children longer? Obviously, their biology is different from ours. Of course, then you wonder why there aren't more magical children, but I guess Grindelwald and Voldemort thinned the ranks. -Debbie From jmeec316 at aol.com Sat May 24 03:13:47 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 03:13:47 -0000 Subject: Hermione and her time -turner and a Snape theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58551 Pippin wrote: > In chapter 7 of PoA, Ron and Harry leave Potions Class with > Hermione. They are mystified as she disappears from behind > them and reappears "hurrying up the stairs; one hand clutched > her bag, the other seemed to be tucking something down the > front of her robes." It can't be the next period that's doubled, > because it's lunch, for which Hermione says she's starving. Not > surprising if her internal clock is a couple of hours off. > > Of course this leaves us with a possible Flint. But perhaps > Hermione is taking her elective class with the Ravenclaws and > Hufflepuffs. > > Pippin > who staunchly supports option 1. And I (Jaimee) write in response: I always pictured Hermione using the Time Turner to get work done as well as attend classes. On the day Hermione slaps Draco and sleeps through the Cheering Charms lesson, it is canon that Hermione also slept through lunch (p.294-5, US edition)and the boys find her with her face in her book in the Gryffindor common room. It seems reasonable that Hermione would have to use the TT to go to the library or common room to read, complete homework, etc. (I mean...she did have to read four hundred and twenty-two pages of Home Life and Social Habits of Britsh Muggles, not to mention work for her other classes...and she had to get it done sometime!) my 2 knuts, Jaimee From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sat May 24 03:48:50 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Foreign" students at Hogwarts (Cho) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030524034850.39182.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58552 DrMM, in part: > Cho Chang is most definatly not > a Japanese name. The Japanese > language doesn't have a hard "g" > sound. Does 'Chang' have a hard 'g' sound in it? Though I agree that naming a character 'Cho Chang' is not likely meant to indicate Japanese ancestry, the reason you give above is completely not in keeping with what we know of the Japanese language. I mean, what are the 'g' sounds in, say, 'origami' and 'arigato' if they aren't hard? Take a look at the next to last paragraph of this page: http://www.jinjapan.org/ access/language/phono.html It clearly states: "The g sound is always the hard g of English 'game', not that of 'gene.'" If I've misunderstood you, could you clarify? But not on the main list here - how about at OTChatter? > I've also met a *lot* of Japanese > people and I have yet to meet one > named Cho or Chang (I live in > Japan right now). Living in California, I've also encountered a great many names that are of Japanese origin. I have yet to see a family name that is mono- syllabic. Hardly conclusive but there you have it - another reason this name does not read 'Japanese' to me. Petra a n :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat May 24 04:10:12 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:10:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and the deal with the devil Message-ID: <1d0.a34fe75.2c004aa4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58553 In a message dated 5/23/03 8:08:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bard7696 at aol.com writes: > Again, HOW did she betray him? We know that he said, "Run Lily, I'll hold > him > off" which indicates there wasn't a "take him instead of me" spur-of-the- > moment kind of deal. Sorry, I clarified that in my head, but didn't type it. I *meant* to say that Lily could have made the deal earlier ... I don't know when. I have this whole thing planned out: Okay, let's say, for the sake of this, that Snape was in love with Lily. He finds out that the Dark Lord wants to kill the Potters. Snape goes to Lily and says that they're marked for death. Lily goes to the Dark Lord and says that, in exhange for Harry's/her life, she'll give him James. *shrugs* She's Desperate!Lily. She doesn't know he'll keep his word, but she figures that at least she's trying to save her son. Or something like that. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Who is suffering from slight smoke inhalation due to a bonfire in which she and her friends burned all of their stuff from school. Plastic burns nicely. As does "The Scarlet Letter." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From happydogue at aol.com Sat May 24 03:36:06 2003 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:36:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's hair; Message-ID: <1e4.9867057.2c0042a6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58554 >From someone that has the same hair problem.... If your hair is very fine (baby fine), and thin (not bald but fewer hairs per square inch) no matter how often you wash it the fine quality of the hair makes it appear that it is falling in strings and it looks greasy. I can wash my hair in the AM and by afternoon it looks bad. Yet if I wash it to often because it is so fine it sticks out full of static. At least I can get a permanent and it takes care of the problem. What Snape really needs is a shorter hair style but with his personality taking the time to deal with a hair dresser is out of the question. Speaking from "Hair" experience, JMM From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 24 04:22:29 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:22:29 -0500 Subject: Hagrid was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthur and Molly Weasly References: Message-ID: <000f01c321ac$17879980$8bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58555 Steve wrote: (big snip) > We need to look at what is likely, not what is possible. It is > possible that Molly went to school at the sametime as or after Hagrid, > but I personally don't think it is very likely. Is it positive in canon that Hagrid became gamekeeper immediately after being expelled? Would he even be of legal employable age at 13? And, if he did not immediately assume at least assistant gamekeeper duties, then where did he live? His father was dead and his mother had abandoned the family. This last question, in a way, is still valid even had he not been expelled for the reasons lifted above. Where would he have gone/did he go during the summer after his father died? Did he stay at Hogwarts year round? Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From jhlupin at hotmail.com Sat May 24 03:53:17 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (Johannes Lupin) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 03:53:17 +0000 Subject: Message returned for editing: Figg's Role: FIB (Figg Incogneto Bodyguard) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58556 >I was thinking about McGonagall in general, and >ended up thinking about that fateful Halloween night. What does >McGonagall do the whole next day? Sit at the Dursleys house and watch >them. Yes, we find out that she's been waiting for Dumbledore to show up, but >what if that's not the full reason she was sent there? Me: MM was at the Dursley's to find Dumbledore. Finding her there did not suprise AD, but in so admitting, Dumbledore confirms he did not send her. An interesting question therefore is why? AD trusts Hagrid more than the Deputy Headmistress? MM had heard rumors of the events of Godric's Hollow, but looked to AD for the facts. If we are to accept that so many wizards were put into play to establish protection for Harry, you would expect the most trusted friends Dumbledore had to be in on it. AD doesn't fully trust MM. I think this will become obvious in OoP. Secondly, the most powerful dark wizard in 100 years is rendered powerless by a one year old boy and the forces of magic scramble to "protect" him? Not likely. More likely they are trying to assess and protect themselves from what may be a greater threat than Voldemort. They put Harry in an environment where he doesn't know his background, and where indeed, the hope is to squash the magic out of him. Others in this forum have stated Dumbledore seems to be testing Harry in the first 2 books, letting him have a crack at Voldemort in SS/PS, and at the Heir of Slytherin in CoS. Malfoy's conjoured snake in the first meeting of the dueling club, as suggested by Snape, is another example of how AD, with the help of a nasty but loyal SS, was testing Harry. AD, at least in the first books, doesn't fully trust Harry. He admits that the whole truth of what happened that night in Godric's Hollow may never be known. All this points to the fact that Arbella Figg, strongly trained in defense against the Dark Arts, is there to protect the wizarding world from Harry Potter, and not the other way around. JH _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jhlupin at hotmail.com Sat May 24 04:03:02 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (Johannes Lupin) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 04:03:02 +0000 Subject: extremely uncertain routes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58557 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden > wrote: >Oh! And don't even ask me what I think about the absurdity of >Voldemort going through that extremely uncertain route to get >Harry when he could have had Moody/Crouch use a Portkey at >any prearranged time of the school year to do the same thing >with much more certainty. Even if he had to get Harry away from >the school first (invite him to Hogsmeade for a butterbear? that >would have been so much safer and more intelligent. And I can't >buy the notion of Voldemort wanting to make a spectacular >splash. He wanted want thing. To use Harry to gain his strength >back! Period! >That's OK. I STILL love our author! Huggs Becky I reply: I think there is canon evidence to support Voldemort's circuitous route to Harry in GoF. First, in SS/PS, the SS is protected by many enchantments, including LOGIC, as most wizards don't have an ounce of it. Obviously it was felt to be an obstacle to Voldemort. We don't know if it was Quirrel or Voldemort that thought their way through that one. So don't use a Muggle concept of logic against JKR when it comes to grand and complicated scenarios. Secondly, it is acknowledged in GoF that the Flesh, Blood and Bones incantation/potion(?) is ancient magic. As certain specific days and seasonal events were felt to be magically significant in ancient magic lore, it seems reasonable that it had to be performed on a specific day, or even at a specific time, or even in concert with a specific astrological occurence (thus the centaurs could read it in the heavens). I don't have the text at hand, but it would seem the timing of this was toward the end of June, as Hogwarts Students have a 2 month summer break and always return to school on September First. This could correlate with the start of Summer. Does anyone else have a reason for the timing having to be important? Of course, if a portkey could also trasport thru time as well as space, then Moody/Crouch Jr could have snatched Harry at anytime. I find no canon evidence of this being possible. We also have evidence of the Ministry of Magic being influenced by, and indeed infiltrated by death eaters. Certainly influenceing the scheduling of the final event would have been easy. JH _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jhlupin at hotmail.com Sat May 24 04:09:01 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (Johannes Lupin) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 04:09:01 +0000 Subject: Who's whose heir or Lily was here / Re: Why the Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58558 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Koticzka" > wrote: >Getting to the *point*: >2. The Potters did not fight seriously, because they were consious Voldie >was too strong. James Potter believed in delaying Voldie and >letting Lilly escape with a child. >4. James Potter had to be eliminated as GG's descendant. Me: Lilly Potter knew what she was doing that night when Harry was cursed and James was even if we don't. There is ample canon evidence to support that preparations were being made to thwart the attack. Lilly's role was likely defined, and she played it to perfection. She sacrificed herself to save Harry. Voldemort started getting info from PP around the time of Harry's birth. This implies Harry was the reason for Voldemort's visit to Godric's Hollow that night. He didn't need a spy close to the Potters until they had established an heir. Harry was the threat because he is the heir of both GG and SS. Or so I believe. Now, we are told many times that Harry has "his mother's eyes." JKR puts much emphasis on eyes in her books, especially to those with great power (Volde, AD, Dobby). They likely are the seat of some measure of magical power. I believe that JKR has made this so obvious, because we have heard it so many times, so it is likely to be true and not a red herring -- Lily performed a switching spell and gave Harry her eyes. The size of your eyes doesn't change much after a year of age, so there wouldn't be any size issues. This likely gives Harry a measure of magic that is beyond his years, and why he has recollection of that night beyond what a typical one year old would have. I choose to believe this although I don't believe that the statements that Harry looks just like James means that through some complicated machination, the infant body of James was switched with the infant body of Harry, as I can not devine to what end that would be helpful (unless it was to sacrifice Harry so that James could live.) So, Lilly's eyes are important, because Harry really does have them. The first 2 books really chronicle AD's attempt to ascertain if Harry is a threat. Since no one understands what went on that night, even AD doesn't know how Harry truly survived and if he has . The sorting hat, which resides in AD's office, was another "test." And Harry is the one who brought up Slytherin to the Sorting hat. if he had not, the subject may never have come up! JH - who is definitely loopy and mildly abashed for having been so easily snared in the pensieve _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat May 24 04:52:16 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:52:16 EDT Subject: Death of One of the Trio? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58559 (Buffy The Vampire Slayer, series finale spoilers...not HP but just in case...) The post in which Jenny from Ravenclaw mentioned in passing that she watched the Buffy season finale got me thinking. Alot of people have been saying things about one of the Trio dying, and then it is followed by a bunch of people saying they could not die. Well, what if they died like Anya or Spike did? For those of you who don't watch Buffy, Anya died while making sure that none of the Ubervamps could escape, and Spike used a magic amulet (the amulet had to be used by a champion) which engulfs him in light, kills the evil vampires, and then kills him. I swear this *will* be on topic in a second! Here it is: What if that's how one of the Trio dies? If they die saving the world? If there *has* to be a death of one of the Trio, isn't that the way they should go? Fighting the good fight (perhaps with a Good!Slyth by their side?) and saving the day? We know that they're willing to die for each other (at least Ron is, chess in PS), and that they will do what they have to do to stop evil. If you gotta go, that's the way to go (Bye, Bye Birdie anyone?). Would that be a fitting death for Harry, Ron, or Hermione? It could happen anytime between OoP and Book Seven...but I think if one of them dies it will be later than OoP. Hence why there's no OoP prefix...I do not think it will be in OoP. And now I'm rambling. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Those poor runner ups Might still hold some grudges They padded their cups But I screwed the judges!" - (It's Hard To Get Rid Of) Miss Baltimore Crabs from Hairspray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 24 05:06:22 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:06:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's whose heir or Lily was here / Re: Why the Potter References: Message-ID: <002401c321b2$392817d0$8bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58560 Johannes Lupin wrote: > Now, we are told many times that Harry has "his mother's eyes." > JKR puts much emphasis on eyes in her books, especially to > those with great power (Volde, AD, Dobby). They likely are the > seat of some measure of magical power. I believe that JKR has > made this so obvious, because we have heard it so many times, > so it is likely to be true and not a red herring -- Lily performed a > switching spell and gave Harry her eyes. The size of your eyes > doesn't change much after a year of age, so there wouldn't be > any size issues. This likely gives Harry a measure of magic that > is beyond his years, and why he has recollection of that night > beyond what a typical one year old would have. I choose to > believe this although I don't believe that the statements that > Harry looks just like James means that through some complicated > machination, the infant body of James was switched with the > infant body of Harry, as I can not devine to what end that would > be helpful (unless it was to sacrifice Harry so that James could > live.) So, Lilly's eyes are important, because Harry really does > have them. Let me add some thoughts to this, mainly on Harry's memory of his parents' death. Harry is one year old at this time. Fact. I remember hearing at least once, though, that somewhere in our minds is a memory of everything that has ever happened to us, every experience, event, smell, touch, everything. It's just we usually do not have access to all of it because it is not important for us to remember every single thing, so we forget it. Let's also not forget that this night was a very traumatic night for him. This is how I picture it. Harry is still awake, whether he is sitting in his crib or whatever. He is doing his own thing when he hears his father shout, "Lily, take Harry and go!" Whatever line it was James said there; it's late and I'm too lazy to grab my book. Harry is alerted to this because his name was used and because he most likely detected fear and tension in a beloved voice. Directly following this, his mother picks him up and carries him to, if we can trust the movie, his bedroom. I'd also like to point out that, in my experience, little kids seem to be quite perceptive of their parents' emotions. He is being held by his mother. He can feel the fear. Maybe she is even shaking. This is on top of whatever noises Voldemort and James are making in their brief duel in a different part of the house. Harry hears the outcome of the duel, although I'm sure he doesn't understand what happened. His mother does understand it, though, and reacts in some way. Harry knows it's not good and that his mother is greatly distressed about something. He is then placed in his crib and his mother turns from him to deal with the person who has just come in his room that Harry knows is not his Daddy. The scene that unfolds is etched permanently, deeply, and vividly into his young, impressionable memory, most likely because he is so afraid. Let's not forget that he actually sees his Mummy fall down and not move or speak again, not even when the stranger comes his way threateningly. I break off here because we don't know for sure how this next scene truly transpired, and I'm not going to speculate here. Anyway, the point is, he was terrified (we know it's his worst memory because the Dementors keep dragging it out of him), and terror only serves to heighten an experience. We remember events much better if there is an emotional significance attached to it, and this one is very emotionally charged. So, in my mind, this memory has nothing to do with anything he may or may not have received from Lily through her sacrifice, from Voldemort with his transference of powers, or from anyone else. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat May 24 05:33:47 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 01:33:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Trelawney Prediction Message-ID: <6d.11aef36e.2c005e3b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58561 In a message dated 5/22/03 2:18:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, distractedone at comcast.net writes: > Who's to say that Trelawney's first prediction even had anything to do with > Harry and Voldemort? We know that according to canon she's only had two > real predictions but nothing was ever said what the first one was about. There > has to be some other reason why Voldemort went after the Potters. Do you > think Voldemort would trust a prediction from someone who never had a true > prediction in their life before that one? > > Merlin Wouldn't she have had to have made this prediction long before she became a teacher? I imagine there's some prediction you have to make to prove you're a Seer or else everyone would just be walking around, picking up chicks by saying "Yeah, I'm a Seer - and I See you and me together!" Maybe her first prediction is what got her her job, and McGonagall's er...frustration with Trewlaney is that she hasn't made another one since (unil PoA). ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Would it be ironic to burn Farenheit 451? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 24 06:00:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 06:00:51 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Molly Weasly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie" wrote: > Colleen/"cgbrennan2003" wrote: > > Okay, please check my facts and my math, but at the time of CofS, > > isn't it established that Hagrid is 63 years old? .... If Mrs. > > Weasly was at school before Hagrid, that would put her at least in > > her sixties. .... > > Ginny is 11 years old in CofS, so Mrs. Weasly would have had to > > have her in her fifties ...! > > Thoughts? > > Me: Well... if wizards and witches can live up to 150-200 years old, > why shouldn't they be able to have children longer? ... Of course, > then you wonder why there aren't more magical children, .... > > -Debbie bboy_mn: Colleen, your facts and math are right on the money. If you read my original post in this thread, and in the old thread I reference, you will see that I estimated Molly's age in her 80's (70 to +80). Debbie, made the exact point I was going to make. This also came up in the discussion before, both in discussing Molly and Arthur, and in discussing wizard's lifespans. Short lesson in biology, what prevents a woman from continuing to have children is not a lack of available eggs, but a body that has aged to the point where it is no longer capable of bringing eggs from their original stored state, to a stage where they have matured to the point of being able to be fertilized. In a sense, an egg has a lifecycle of it's own. Starts as a baby egg, of which there are million, and once a month one of them develops into a mature fertilizable egg. [Admittedly a very broad and general explanation from a man's limited point of view.] Wizards and witches maintain their vitality, verility, and overall 'life force' for about twice as long as a muggle does. It seems a reasonable assumption that the reproductive years are proportional to a witches longer lifespan. As to why witches don't have more children, I suspect it IS because they are able to have children for a longer span of time, so they aren't racing the biological clock the way most muggle women are. In the old thread I reference, I proposed a scenerio in which a witch has 6 kids in her lifetime but has them 10 years apart. That would mean that she would never have more than 2 children living at home at any given time. That would be a large family that gave the impression of being a small family. As someone else pointed out, it seems reasonable that witches and wizards have magical methods of birth control. Methods that are far more reliable and without the side effects of muggle equivalents. That would give witches and wizards unprecidented control of family and life planning. Remember, that this is all just speculation. When confronted by unknown aspects of the wizard world, the best we can do is make reasonable speculation about what is likely. 'Likely' being the keyword. There is far more that is within the bounds of possible, than there is within the bound of likely. I think if is likely that Molly went to Hogwarts before Hagrid. I think it is likely that witches have twice the span of fertile years. I think it is likely that witches and wizard have extremely effective birth control. As a side note, while far from likely, it is possible for a woman in her 50's to give birth. I know because our neighbor did it. But then, that's just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat May 24 06:05:44 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 02:05:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply Message-ID: <147.122e3a4c.2c0065b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58563 In a message dated 5/22/03 6:03:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, innermurk at catlover.com writes: > I'm not defending Lockhart here, but I do have to ask why it's all > right for Snape to mistreat students as a "learning tool" and it's > not ok for Lockhart to do so. There seems to be a double standard > running around here. Let's face it if Snape had set the trio in a > room and unleashed a bunch of cornish pixies on them, some on this > list would argue that it was an important lesson, he was trying to > toughen them up, he was grooming them to fight the Dark Lord, and a > myriad of other excuses. But when Lockhart does it, he's just a > fraud, braggart, and an icompetent idiot? One, without getting angry, I'd like to point out that they're not excuses for Snape. *pause* Sorry...getting angry. I think there are better words for what we would say. Perhaps "myriad of other *ideas*", because "excuses" is - never mind, not important now. You are defending Lockhart here. It's not a double standard. The reason that Lockhart becomes all the things you mentioned (fraud, incompetent idiot, braggart, and overall John Noble) is that HE COULD NOT CONTROL THEM! If Snape brought in Cornish Pixies, he would be able to stop them from throwing wands and other things around. But if Snape were to lock the Trio in with pixies, it wouldn't be because he wasn't competent enough to get them back in the cage - it really would be a test or something. My hatred of Lockhart is showing here, but I think that he should have known how to control the pixies before busting them out in the middle of class - that was just stupid of him. My point? Lockhart *is* a fraud, he doesn't become one just because of the infamous pixie incident. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 24 06:22:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 06:22:53 -0000 Subject: Hagrid was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arthur and Molly Weasly In-Reply-To: <000f01c321ac$17879980$8bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > > Is it positive in canon that Hagrid became gamekeeper immediately > after being expelled? Would he even be of legal employable age at 13? > And, if ... not ..., then where did he live? ... Did he stay at > Hogwarts year round? > > Kelly Grosskreutz bboy_mn: Again, I can only speculate about what is likely. There is some debate over whether Hagrid became gamekeeper immediately or whether he went through a training period. Either way, I believe it is likely that from that point on he lived at Hogwarts. I think having just been expelled for the death of a student, or at least, for bringing a dangerous creature into the castle, and given that disgrace, he wouldn't have been too eager to show his face in the wizard world. So for years, he stayed at Hogwarts, gradually going into Hogsmeade and meeting people, getting to know students and teachers, then later becoming known by the wizard world as a reasonable, decent, safe person that could be trusted. Remember, he's been around for 50 years. That's plenty of time for people to get to know him personally. It is possible that Hagird still had access to his father's house, but I think he lived a Hogwarts. It's possible that he still has his father's house, but it sits abondon and unused, or he could rent it to someone for the extra cash. So, I guess my short answer is that he stay on living at Hogwarts after he was expelled. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jhlupin at hotmail.com Sat May 24 04:19:38 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 04:19:38 -0000 Subject: Trevor, the toad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" wrote: > wrote: > > > At the moment I'm only in chapter 6 of book 1 and Trevor was > > mentioned 6 times in that chapter alone. Trevor ... > > has overproportional "screentime". JH responds: It's more likely that this is a JKR clue. If she repeats it she means it. Trevor's Dad was an auror. His Grandmother is a . Neville has obviously had memory charm work done as a young child to his now addeled brain. Later, Trevor was a gift from Uncle Algae to celebrate Neville not being a squib. I think there is more to both Neville and Trevor than meets the eye. That toad's got some magic in 'em, he does. JH From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Sat May 24 05:20:01 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 05:20:01 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat Prediction & Will Harry Go to Slytherin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58566 Digging through the archives, I found some discussion of the possibility that the Sorting Hat has precognitive ability. The posts were about the mechanics of Sorting the students and how the numbers in each house could be kept even (assuming they are even.) The theory was that the Hat did a sort of pre-scan of the kids, so for example, it wouldn't fill up the quota of Gryffindors before reaching "Weasley" in the alphabet. I think the Hat's precognitive ability goes way beyond the Sorting itself. I'm intrigued by the its comments to Harry during his Sorting (PS/SS The Sorting Hat). It tells him, "You could be great you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that-" Also, in CoS (The Polyjuice Potion) it says, "Yes... you were particularly difficult to place, but I stand by what I said before... you *would* have done well in Slytherin-" (emphasis JKR's.) Most of what the Hat says in in conditional tense (would, could), but it tells Harry that Slytherin *will* help him, no doubt about it. The Hat seems to be predicting that, Sorting aside, Harry will have dealings with the house, or its members, or even with old Salazar himself(?) at some point. And something about that interaction will help Harry on his way to greatness. (Huh, the Hat sounds an awful lot like Ollivander here...) Even if you buy the notion that the Slytherins' personality traits make them predisposed to be Dark, it still seems suspicious that all (or at least most) of the wizards and witches who go bad come from that one house. One scenario would have Harry trying to find out just why so many Slytherins turn Dark, leading him to uncover some legacy of evil lurking there that he then destoys. From this he gets additional fame, personal growth, knowledge he can use, or the formation of friendships that come into play in the final battle with LV. Or what seems even more likely - Since the series centers around Hogwarts, it's logical to assume the final battle with LV will happen there, too. Harry could be drawn to Slytherin just because it's the intersection point between the two camps. Can anyone think of any canon, pro or con? Other thoughts? Meanwhile, I think I like this as an idea for a fic...;-) ~Diane From lumos28 at yahoo.com Sat May 24 07:00:54 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (lumos28) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 07:00:54 -0000 Subject: OOP: Possible major spoiler: I found another "cover picture". caution Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58567 hi all This is probably old news or even completely false info but I haven't seen it being discussed anywhere on this list. Today, there was a news item in an Indian newspaper about how Amazon is swamped with preorders for book 5. And my eyes popped out when I saw the accompanying picture. Once again I repeat you may have seen it before (and I doubt how reliable this thing is) but I have never come across it being discussed so i'm taking the chance. So if this post turns out to be a dissappointment, don't get mad! So about this picture..umm..it shows the phoenix rising out of flames..and well..3 people in shadow on a flying carpet...ok I won't say anything else, go look at the picture! Here's the link: http://cafe.cgocable.ca/modufres/aaa2002/Nouveau%20liens/Harry% 20Potter%205%20800%20mod.jpg In the picture that appeared in the paper, they have made it out to be a proper Bloomsbury cover with writing at the bottom that says "Double Smarties Award Winning Author" which is not the case here. So there is a chance that they just used some fan art and added it to a Bloomsbury cover, there's no way of really knowing. The carpet really threw me though. Ok..If the link doesn't work, go to www.indiatimes.com In the search, type in Harry Potter and select "images" as search criteria. The image turns up in the 2nd page of search results. I can't attach the pic and I have to rush as I am in the middle of exams but do take a look and let me know... Is this old news??!! I don't know what to make of this.. -Anita, who between exams and the magic carpet can't think straight right now. From hp at plum.cream.org Sat May 24 09:57:05 2003 From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 10:57:05 +0100 Subject: OOP: Possible major spoiler: I found another "cover picture". caution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030524104708.0097ba30@plum.cream.org> No: HPFGUIDX 58568 Anita wrote: >http://cafe.cgocable.ca/modufres/aaa2002/Nouveau%20liens/Harry% >20Potter%205%20800%20mod.jpg > >In the picture that appeared in the paper, they have made it out to be a >proper Bloomsbury cover with writing at the bottom that says "Double >Smarties Award Winning Author" which is not the case here. >So there is a chance that they just used some fan art and added it to a >Bloomsbury cover, there's no way of really knowing. Yes there is. That picture's been doing the rounds online for well over a year and is utterly fake. The genuine Bloomsbury covers have been known for a few months and appear on all the usual bookseller websites (e.g. http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747551006.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg for the "standard" edition or http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747569401.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg for the "adult" edition). The US covers have recently been discussed ad nauseam on this list, so I assume you've seen them. I have a vague recollection that the fake is an adaptation of a cover from another book, but I can't for the sake of me remember what it is. It is Bad Journalism (TM) on the part of the India Times if they actually published that picture without comment, as it doesn't require rocket science or any particular knowledge of the internet to find the genuine article. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat May 24 11:18:26 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 06:18:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Foreign" students at Hogwarts (Cho) References: <20030524034850.39182.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ECF5502.7050805@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58569 Petra Pan wrote: > DrMM, in part: > (snip-snip) > > I've also met a *lot* of Japanese > > people and I have yet to meet one > > named Cho or Chang (I live in > > Japan right now). > > Living in California, I've also > encountered a great many names that > are of Japanese origin. I have yet > to see a family name that is mono- > syllabic. Hardly conclusive but > there you have it - another reason > this name does not read 'Japanese' > to me. > > Petra > a > n :) > Chang is Chinese, not Japanese, far as I know. And I do believe that Cho Chang is not from the UK, but likely moved there with her family. I also believe there are other students who are not 'pureblood' UK'ers there as well and even transfer students. If Draco could have been sent to another country for schooling, then it stands to reason that kids from other countries could in fact go to Hoggwarts. I do not think its an 'exclusive' school for magical kids born in the UK that bans anyone else. Jazmyn From vixx_y at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 24 11:58:05 2003 From: vixx_y at yahoo.co.uk (vixx_y) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:58:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58570 Hi there everyone. I was watching Buffy last night (don't pounce mods, this is on-topic, I swear!) and it struck me that one of the reasons that I detest Buffy (character) so much is because she hasn't had to sacrifice anything to get where she is. And, more importantly, she *won't* sacrifice anything, or anyone. Which brought me to thinking - how much, or who, would Harry be prepared to sacrifice in his fight? I think that he would give his own life without a thought - but what if he had to give Hermione's, or Ron's? I think he could give those two, actually. It really gets interesting when you think - would he give Snapes? Draco's? The Dursleys? Any thoughts? Vix From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Sat May 24 12:19:22 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 05:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's hair and status) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030524121922.24009.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58571 Patti muddied the cross-Atlantic waters a little more by writing: <<>> And now I [Odile] am going to make the waters even murkier: When I was at university (both graduate and under-graduate), I understood that those who were PhDs and could therefore be addressed as "Doctor" were squeamish about it and tended to look down on those who insisted on being addressed as Doctor. Weird. Or maybe it was just my Latin Professor who thought that way. But anyway, that's going way far afield from the topic at hand... Back to res Harrius Pottericus, why is it that some female teachers are addressed as "Madame" (Madame Pomfrey, Madame Hooch) and some are addressed as "Professor" (Professor McGonagall)? I know that this is (probably) movie contamination, but I always wondered about it because in film version of CoS, Dumbledore addresses Sprout as both Madame and Professor. They're not interchangeable, are they? Is "Madame" an honorific? And while I'm at it, why is Voldemort a "Lord," yet the seemingly aristocratic Malfoy is "Mister"? Or is that movie contamination as well? Odile, confident that our excellent friends in the UK will be kind enough to explain this to me... From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat May 24 12:27:49 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 12:27:49 -0000 Subject: Lily and the deal with the devil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > Back to the thread - > > I like Evil!Lily - well, maybe not *evil* but at least Desperate! Lily. I > > think the plot twist would be good in a way, because it would show that >>> Again, HOW did she betray him? We know that he said, "Run Lily, I'll hold him off" which indicates there wasn't a "take him instead of me" spur-of-the- moment kind of deal. And if he already had Pettigrew, why would V-Mort need her? And in the vein of my "Just how stupid is Snape?" theory on the Shrieking Shack, I wonder "just how stupid is Lily?" for trusting V- Mort to keep his word?>>> Ali: Desperate people do desperate things. I don't think that Lily's "deal" with Voldemort would have been made when Voldemort actually burst into the house. It is quite possible though that she had already been in contact with him. If she was the one who cast the Secret Keeper charm, perhaps she put a flaw in it? As for why Voldemort would need Lily as well as Pettigrew, he didn't. But since when have governments, terrorists etc only had one spy? They tend to have several who work without knowledge of each other. Then, if one has been compromised, they can still carry on their work. Darrin again: <<< I don't really think it was pivotal (Lily's sacrifice). I mean, it was important because Harry lived, but IMHO what Harry does with the life he was given is more important than how he got it. What we choose to become and all that jazz. I think that without Lily's sacrifice there is no Harry. And if there is no Harry, there is no story. No matter what he chooses to make of his life, the fact that he has a choice is because of her.>>> Ali replies: I agree. Lily's sacrifice is fundamental both to Harry, and to the plot. I don't think that undermines the potential though for a possible pact with Voldemort. My theory (which I don't want to be true) has Lily acting only to save Harry. Once she has compromised her beliefs, sacrificed her husband she then sacrifices herself. If this deal did happen, and Harry were to discover it, I think he would find it very hard to come to terms with. So far, he's almost been able to canonise his parents. He has not had to deal with a memory of flawed individuals. But, perhaps this idealised vision will come under attack in the later books. Ali From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sat May 24 13:47:08 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 13:47:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58573 Vix wrote: > Which brought me to thinking - how much, or who, would Harry be > prepared to sacrifice in his fight? I think that he would give his > own life without a thought - but what if he had to give Hermione's, > or Ron's? I think he could give those two, actually. It really gets > interesting when you think - would he give Snapes? Draco's? The > Dursleys? Now Alice: Judging by the way he didn't let Wormtail be killed, I don't think Harry would be into letting anybody else get killed. Wormtail is bad to the bone, and Harry knows that. Yet he wants to give him a fair trial. Ron or Hermione are Good, and I think Harry would much rather NOT defeat Bad at that specific moment than sacrifice their lives (or Snape's, or Draco's, or the Dursley's, for that matter). I'm quite sure, though, that he will have to face this type of dilemma sooner or later (and probably sooner) in the series. We shall see. No danger of becoming Buffyish, in any case: Harry has already made countless sacrifices, and his friends also - this might actually be the key: he would sacrifice people only if they were prepared to be sacrificed. Which would leave the Dursley's alive, and Ron dead. Rather awful thought... Anybody else on the matter? Love, Alice ---if there's anyone on the list from Albania (I recall that there is), could you please mail me if you have a sec? I have a question on name spellings... Thank you. From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 24 14:09:34 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 09:09:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's hair and status) References: <20030524121922.24009.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c321fe$1b3788e0$09ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58574 Odile wrote: > And while I'm at it, why is Voldemort a "Lord," yet > the seemingly aristocratic Malfoy is "Mister"? Or is > that movie contamination as well? I'm not from the U.K., but I think I can explain Voldemort being a Lord. When he was in school, he took the letters of his name, Tom Marvolo Riddle, and came up with the anagram I am Lord Voldemort. He is not an actual Lord, but it is just a title he gave himself. I will let someone else explain why Lucius Malfoy is not called Lord, as I do not really know. My guess would be that no one has conferred the title upon him. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From gail at melbpc.org.au Fri May 23 13:17:20 2003 From: gail at melbpc.org.au (Gail Pamphilon) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:17:20 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Foreign" students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <00f501c32033$2805de40$08570043@hppav> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030523230830.00a0c800@popa.melbpc.org.au> No: HPFGUIDX 58575 Eric wrote: >at least, as Harry himself or HM the Queen. (Who, let us not forget, is >mostly German by ancestry). < I thought more Scottish than German. Wasn't her mother a Scot? :-) And Prince Philip is Greek, as I remember. >Justin Finch-Fletchley's name is very upper-class, as is his background < One would almost expect it to be spelt 'ffinch-Fletchley'. I hope this sort of thing is left over from the spelling of the Middle Ages or whenever, otherwise I will have to describe it as being too precious - I could use another expression, but won't. >while about everything about Neville Longbottom screams "working class," at >least according to a correspondent of mine from the UK who loves the HP >books herself) < I thought middle-class, but I'm not an expert. >thesis of Professor Dumbledore's attitude of "if you've got the magic >talent, you're welcome at Hogwarts" as JKR's comment on this sort of >nonsense---but I won't. < I have my own theory on the mix of social classes at Hogwarts. I imagined Tom Riddle, who hated being half muggle, being raised as a snob by his father and stepmother, then deciding to reject the British caste system as a muggle weakness. There doesn't appear to be any of that outdated nonsense in the WW, and little to no sexism either. Notice that Lucius Malfoy (it must be a Freudian slip, I spelt that as Lucious just at first!) regarded Harry with respect when they first met. He wasn't interested in Harry's (lower?) middle-class background, only in his power. It also didn't matter to Lucius that Harry was only a first-generation pureblood, if you like - his mother at least appears to have been muggle-born, though I don't know about his father. We know how important these things are to Lucius. Harry's apparent power was all that really mattered. Gail c|_| From patricia at obscure.org Sat May 24 15:06:34 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Foreign" students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030523230830.00a0c800@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58576 On Fri, 23 May 2003, Gail Pamphilon wrote: > I have my own theory on the mix of social classes at Hogwarts. I imagined > Tom Riddle, who hated being half muggle, being raised as a snob by his > father and stepmother, then deciding to reject the British caste system as > a muggle weakness. There's a problem with this theory. Tom Riddle was not raised by his father, or by any family at all. He was rejected by his father before he was even born and was raised in a Muggle orphanage. There's no canon evidence that he ever met his father before he showed up at the Riddle house to kill his father and grandparents. (There's also no evidence that Tom Riddle Sr. ever remarried. Only one woman's body was found after that night, that of Tom Jr.'s elderly grandmother, no mention was made of a missing person, and apparently no surviving family was around to inherit the old manor.) Besides, Tom would have plenty of exposure to the class system while being raised in an orphanage, without ever being taught to be a snob. You don't have to be at the top of the heap to realize the heap is there. Being pretty much the lowest of the low (a penniless, family-less minor) I imagine the class system must have left Tom feeling quite bitter, and determined to rise to the top. > There doesn't appear to be any of that outdated nonsense > in the WW, and little to no sexism either. The WW has it's own outdated nonsense, the whole purity of blood thing. I wouldn't say it's any better, just different. And we really don't know about the sexism. Our teenaged male protagonist hasn't had much occassion yet to consider the role of women. But I do think it's telling that all the high-ranked ministry officials we have met so far are male. That indicates to me that women, while not so down-trodden as house elves, are not yet true equals in the WW. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 24 15:11:07 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:11:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alice_loves_cats" wrote: > Vix wrote: > > > Which brought me to thinking - how much, or who, would Harry be prepared to sacrifice in his fight?<< I think Harry will have to sacrifice his magical powers and his place in the Wizarding World. There is canon support for the idea that a wizard can lose his powers. Neville is the best example. We know, from interviews, that the Hogwarts quill writes down the names of all children who are magical enough to attend Hogwarts in the year that they are born. Yet Neville's family thought he was "all Muggle for ages" and were afraid that he wasn't magical enough to come. How could there be doubt, unless they thought something had happened to Neville's magic after the quill had written his name? Lupin also says that "Dementors are supposed to drain a wizard of his powers if he is left with them too long." Pippin From patricia at obscure.org Sat May 24 15:12:20 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hypothesis for Trelawney's First Real Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58578 On Fri, 23 May 2003, Anita Hillin wrote: > Your thoughts have mirrored mine, to some extent. I wondered if her first > real prediction was Lily and James' death, which would be similar to your > betrayal theory. Predicting Harry's death might then be a favorite pastime > for her, given her spot-on success with his parents. On the other hand, I wonder if she even remembers her first real prediction at all. She certainly didn't remember delivering her second real prediction and was quite unwilling to believe Harry when he told her about it. My impression is that she only believes in her fake predictions, not her real ones, because the real ones just seem so terribly unlikely. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat May 24 14:44:44 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 14:44:44 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat Prediction & Will Harry Go to Slytherin?/Divination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58579 ~Diane wrote: > I think the Hat's precognitive ability goes way beyond the Sorting > itself. I'm intrigued by the its comments to Harry during his > Sorting (PS/SS The Sorting Hat). It tells him, "You could be great > you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on > the way to greatness, no doubt about that-" Also, in CoS (The > Polyjuice Potion) it says, "Yes... you were particularly difficult > to place, but I stand by what I said before... you *would* have done > well in Slytherin-" (emphasis JKR's.) > Most of what the Hat says in in conditional tense (would, could), > but it tells Harry that Slytherin *will* help him, no doubt about > it. The Hat seems to be predicting that, Sorting aside, Harry will > have dealings with the house, or its members, or even with old > Salazar himself(?) at some point. And something about that > interaction will help Harry on his way to greatness. (Huh, the Hat > sounds an awful lot like Ollivander here...) Yes, well- they help him into greatness. Such as when Malfoy was stealing Neville's remembrall and Harry stands up for Neville, thus presenting his abilities in Quidditch - and becoming the youngest Seeker in a century. And all the other great things Harry does, he's opposing a Slytherin (can't win if there's no one to play against). And Ollivander - Phoenix-wands are rare, and if one chooses a wizard, that wizard is destined to greatness. Hardly a prediction, more like the voice of experience (He IS an old man, isn't he?) and knowledge what a specific wand can do. As good as Fred&George's fake wands are, they'd never fool Ollivander. But Sorting Hat making predictions- maybe. We do make choices, and our choices show what we are. A prediction has to do with - how things are now, what you are, and what those around you are - then you add a little cause&consequence into it... a very complex matter, which happens in subconcious, requires certain level of being ready to accept things like one's own mortality... Hermione has totally separated her emotions from her logical mind - and upon concentrating on a task/puzzle, she distances her emotions from it. She's ready to use what she learns from books, but if a task requires dealing with intelligence and emotion at the same time, she fails. As it is with a boggart - or a dementor. This is why she "has no Sight" as Trelawney put it. And Hermione denies the worth of Divination altogether.. Harry has been practising contacting his subconcious all his life by trying to remember his parents. Due to Dursley lies, he got nothing but green light (that he misinterpreted). When he learns the truth from Hagrid, he's able to remember more. And that, I think, is one reason why he believes and trusts Hagrid in the first place. That openness does provide him with a vision (he _did_ see Buckbeak), but also makes him extremely vulnerable to Dementors... -- Finwitch From lumos28 at yahoo.com Sat May 24 14:35:47 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (lumos28) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 14:35:47 -0000 Subject: OOP: Possible major spoiler: I found another "cover picture". caution In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030524104708.0097ba30@plum.cream.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58580 GulPlum: > Yes there is. That picture's been doing the rounds online for well over a > year and is utterly fake. > > I have a vague recollection that the fake is an adaptation of a cover from > another book, but I can't for the sake of me remember what it is. It is Bad > Journalism (TM) on the part of the India Times if they actually published > that picture without comment, as it doesn't require rocket science or any > particular knowledge of the internet to find the genuine article. Wow..thanks a lot GulPlum, that was a relief. And it is very much irresponsible of The Times of India to print it like that. There are a lot of Potter fans in India but not as overwhelming a number as in the US and Uk so I suppose they felt it was no big deal to print it. But thats no excuse... Am considering writing to them about this. -Anita From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat May 24 16:46:22 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 12:46:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily Evans Potter relationship to Voldemort Message-ID: <125.2212f4ab.2c00fbde@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58581 ersatzharry at yahoo.com writes: > Sorry to have to correct you, but I note that, in the diary, Riddle > confirms to then-headmaster Dippet that he lived in a Muggle > orphanage. At some other point, perhaps more than one, he indicates > that his father abandoned him. I suppose it's possible that he lived > with his father and grandparents at some time, but that seems > unlikely, especially since he was apparently unknown to the locals > when he appeared at the Riddle house and AKd everybody. No problem with being corrected. Of course I *will* point out that there is always the possibility of Riddle lying to Headmaster Dippet :-) But I guess that knocks out my "just like Harry" theory. Nevertheless, my basic point was that Tom Riddle grew up in the Muggle world until Hogwarts "rescued" him. Then after having his basic (Wizard) nature hidden for 10/11 years, he still had to hide it during vacation. This plays Hob with the psyche and probably turned him into the unfeeling killer he later became. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidit at netbox.com Sat May 24 17:28:11 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 13:28:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58582 Pippin wrote: There is canon support for the idea that a wizard can lose his powers. Neville is the best example. We know, from interviews, that the Hogwarts quill writes down the names of all children who are magical enough to attend Hogwarts in the year that they are born. Yet Neville's family thought he was "all Muggle for ages" and were afraid that he wasn't magical enough to come. How could there be doubt, unless they thought something had happened to Neville's magic after the quill had written his name? *** We actually don't know if parents, guardians or family members know that a child's name has been written with the quill until said child gets the Hogwarts letter. So I don't think this can be definitive evidence of Neville "losing" his magic. If nobody knew he had magic in him from the start they might reasonably think he was "all Muggle" instead. Neville might've "lost" his magic when his parents were driven mad, and, to borrow from the 70s british show The Tomorrow People, broke out later on with his magic, but the quill-info isn't declarative, either way. Heidi Tandy *Ask me about Nimbus - 2003* Http://www.hp2003.org From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat May 24 18:13:42 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 14:13:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: <182.1b76f64a.2c011056@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58583 hypercolor99 at hotmail.com writes: > No danger of becoming Buffyish, in any case: Harry has already made > countless sacrifices, and his friends also - this might actually be > the key: he would sacrifice people only if they were prepared to be > sacrificed. Forgive me for playing Voldy's advocate, but could you "count" for me a few times Harry has sacrificed? And don't try to bring up his parents, who sacrificed *themselves* for him, or living with the Dursley's, which he does not do by choice. Harry has risked life and limb often enough, but it's always "No, Harry - you go on, I'll hold them off." while Harry hasn't lost so much as a Quidditch match by his deliberate choice. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat May 24 18:14:35 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:14:35 -0000 Subject: Arthur and Molly Weasly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cgbrennan2003" wrote: > Okay, please check my facts and my math, but at the time of CofS, > isn't it established that Hagrid is 63 years old? The diary is from > 50 years ago, and Hagrid was 13 when it happened. If Mrs. Weasly was > at school before Hagrid, that would put her at least in her sixties. > Ginny is 11 years old in CofS, so Mrs. Weasly would have had to have > her in her fifties when she gave birth to Ginny! > Thoughts? Annemehr: This seems quite reasonable to me, for two reasons: 1. We know from JKR that wizards have a longer lifespan than muggles, so it would not be too much of a stretch to think the childbearing years may also be extended a bit. 2. In RL, having lots of children certainly seems to extend the childbearing years. For example, my husband is the youngest of six, and his mother was 48 when he was born. Although it is very difficult to have a *first* child in your 40s, women with large families seem to be able to keep having them this long. Perhaps it has something to do with all the eggs they didn't ovulate when they were pregnant and nursing. So, I can easily believe a witch could have her seventh child in her fifties. I'm not sure if *Molly* did, though, because I think it makes her rather old at the time of Bill's birth then -- so, no strong opinion on her age from me. Annemehr "I'm /not/ going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 24 18:21:12 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:21:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" wrote: > Pippin wrote: Yet Neville's > family thought he was "all Muggle for ages" and were afraid that he wasn't magical enough to come. How could there be doubt, unless they thought something had happened to Neville's magic after the quill had written his name? > *** > > We actually don't know if parents, guardians or family members know that a child's name has been written with the quill until said child gets the Hogwarts letter. So I don't think this can be definitive evidence of Neville "losing" his magic. If nobody knew he had magic in him from the start they might reasonably think he was "all Muggle" instead. << Hagrid knew that Harry's name had been down since he was a baby, so the knowledge is available. Gran Longbottom certainly would have wanted to know. I think anybody who tried to keep her from finding out would have had a vulture-hatted, handbag-toting shaped hole in them. :-) And I (blush) overlooked the most obvious example of a wizard losing his powers: Voldemort himself. Hagrid says, " Most of us reckon he's still out there somewhere but lost his powers. Too weak to carry on." We know now, of course, that Voldemort didn't actually lose his powers, he lost his body. But Hagrid didn't know that when he spoke. Pippin From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat May 24 18:32:39 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:32:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11564930117.20030524113239@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58586 Saturday, May 24, 2003, 4:58:05 AM, vixx_y wrote: v> Which brought me to thinking - how much, or who, would Harry be v> prepared to sacrifice in his fight? I think that he would give his v> own life without a thought - but what if he had to give Hermione's, v> or Ron's? I think he could give those two, actually. It really gets v> interesting when you think - would he give Snapes? Draco's? The v> Dursleys? Hmmm -- Would Harry let his two dearest friends go into the abyss in order to save the Wizarding World...? I think this topic could lead to all sorts of ethical questions about "Ends justifying the Means." It reminds me of the old moral question, "If you were a mother, would you sacrifice the life of your child if it would rid the world of disease?" I do agree however about Harry sacrificing any*THING* -- That's what makes a hero truly a hero. My favorite example of an annoying, "Buffy-like" (as described in this context) heroine is the title character of Louisa May Alcott's _Rose in Bloom_. In that novel, Rose does all the righteous preaching, but all the actual courage and self-sacrifice is done by Phoebe, the *REAL* heroine of the book, IMHO. -- Dave From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sat May 24 18:43:47 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:43:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <182.1b76f64a.2c011056@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58587 Ray wrote: > Forgive me for playing Voldy's advocate, but could you "count" for me a few > times Harry has sacrificed? (edited) > Harry has risked life and limb often enough, but it's always "No, Harry - you > go on, I'll hold them off." while Harry hasn't lost so much as a Quidditch > match by his deliberate choice. Alice: You're right in saying he has come clean so far - though of course most of the goodies have, excepting Cedric and sort-of Sirius. The example that springs to mind about sacrifice is Harry's deciding to go for the stone. He's sacrificing everything and he knows it. All right, it all turns out well in the end. But otherwise we'd have a dead main character. The experience in itself, I think, leaves toothmarks on his psyche, making sure that even though Dumbledore turns up at exactly the right moment (or not too late anyway), the sacrifice doesn't come to nothing. Love, Alice ---tired and probably unconvincing From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Sat May 24 18:58:37 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Quill (was Re: Harry's sacrifice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030524185837.54873.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58588 Pippin wrote: <<>> And now me (Odile): When Hagrid said "his name's been down ever since he was born" [PS, p. 47] he was in the process of delivering Harry's Hogwarts letter to him. So, since only those children who are born magical get their name written down when they are born, doesn't it follow that Hagrid would have deduced that his name had been down *because* he [Harry] was getting a Hogwarts letter, rather than the other way around? That is, without his [Hagrid's] having prior knowledge? To put it another way: Harry got a Hogwarts letter; therefore, his name had been down ever since he was born. Plus, in that scene, Hagrid makes much of the fact that it would be ludicris- ludicrous- er, unbelievable if a child of Lily and James Potter turned out to be not magical, which leads me to believe that it must be a very rare occurance indeed for a Muggle/Squib child to be born of a witch and wizard. I think that is why Gran Longbottom refused to accept that little Neville, whose parents were powerful aurors, was a Muggle/Squib, and why she and Uncle Algie were so adamant about "forcing magic out of him." [PS, p. 93] Neville goes on to say, "...you should have seen their faces when I got in here - they thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see." [ibid] Evidently, Gran Longbottom and Uncle Algie, judging by that statement, did not have prior knowledge. Odile... 27 days!!!!! From WFeuchter at msn.com Sat May 24 16:27:10 2003 From: WFeuchter at msn.com (hpoldfan) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 16:27:10 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alice_loves_cats" wrote: > Vix wrote: > > > Which brought me to thinking - how much, or who, would Harry be > > prepared to sacrifice in his fight? > > Now Alice: > > Judging by the way he didn't let Wormtail be killed, I don't think > Harry would be into letting anybody else get killed. Wormtail is > bad to the bone, and Harry knows that. Yet he wants to give him a > fair > trial. Ron or Hermione are Good, and I think Harry would >much rather NOT defeat Bad at that specific moment than sacrifice >their lives (or Snape's, or Draco's, or the Dursley's, for that >matter). > > I'm quite sure, though, that he will have to face this type of dilemma sooner or later (and probably sooner) in the series. We shall see. > > No danger of becoming Buffyish, in any case: Harry has already made > countless sacrifices, and his friends also - this might actually be > the key: he would sacrifice people only if they were prepared to be > sacrificed. > > Which would leave the Dursley's alive, and Ron dead. Rather awful > thought... > > Anybody else on the matter? > > Love, Alice Me I am not sure you can say that Harry has made sacrifices yet. He has faced danger, stood up to evil, and so far has held his own. He has done what needed to be done with no regard to how that would effect his own life. While there were injuries to Harry and his friends they were cause by fighting the good fight not due to having to make a decision. Now Ron had to make a sacrifice during the chess game, but Harry did not ask him to make it. In fact he had to be talked into it. In fact it would be out of character for Harry to make a decision that would cause injuries or death to anyone. He would just do what needed to be done on his own Bill From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat May 24 19:42:07 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 19:42:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <182.1b76f64a.2c011056@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > hypercolor99 at h... writes: > > > No danger of becoming Buffyish, in any case: Harry has already made > > countless sacrifices, and his friends also - this might actually be > > the key: he would sacrifice people only if they were prepared to be > > sacrificed. > > Forgive me for playing Voldy's advocate, but could you "count" for me a few > times Harry has sacrificed? And don't try to bring up his parents, who > sacrificed *themselves* for him, or living with the Dursley's, which he does not do > by choice. > > Harry has risked life and limb often enough, but it's always "No, Harry - you > go on, I'll hold them off." while Harry hasn't lost so much as a Quidditch > match by his deliberate choice. > > -- Ray Annemehr: You say that Harry hasn't sacrificed, but that he has risked life and limb often enough. To me, they are pretty much the same thing -- Harry puts his life on the line; it's just that he hasn't actually lost it (yet). So, yes, I think we can say that Harry is willing to sacrifice his own life and see his friends sacrifice their own in order to save the WW or even one young witch (Ginny). When Harry went after the Stone and when he went after Ginny, he knew he might lose his life either time (and almost *did*). He also thought he was in danger when he chased Padfoot and Ron into the Whomping Willow. Harry agreed with Ron risking his life in the chess match, because Ron was the one who *could* make it possible for the others to go on. He also let Ron and Hermione stand up with him against Sirius Black (the supposed traitor).* The fact that they all ended up alive does not negate any of it, and it doesn't give us or Harry any assurance that they will all survive in the future fight. And yeah, Harry did lose that last Quidditch match in PS/SS by his deliberate choice to go after the Stone and winding up unconscious in the hospital wing -- or are you looking for him to deliberately throw a game? ;-) I can't think of anything else (besides physical pain) he may have sacrificed, but you know, Harry doesn't *have* a whole lot to lose besides his own life, his friends, and his place in the Wizarding World -- and our list is *full* of theories about how he's going to lose them all! *This fact that Harry allowed Ron and Hermione risk their lives for him is telling. I think Harry perceives it as a noble act, and he sees his friends as just as capable of it as he is himself. I see it not as any kind of cowardice in Harry, but a virtue. Annemehr "I'm /not/ going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. Yeah -- you tell 'em, Harry! From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Sat May 24 19:49:40 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 12:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030524194940.98707.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > hypercolor99 at h... writes: > > > No danger of becoming Buffyish, in any case: Harry has already made > > countless sacrifices, and his friends also - this might actually be > > the key: he would sacrifice people only if they were prepared to be > > sacrificed. > > Forgive me for playing Voldy's advocate, but could you "count" for me a few > times Harry has sacrificed? And don't try to bring up his parents, who > sacrificed *themselves* for him, or living with the Dursley's, which he does not do > by choice. > > Harry has risked life and limb often enough, but it's always "No, Harry - you > go on, I'll hold them off." while Harry hasn't lost so much as a Quidditch > match by his deliberate choice. > > -- Ray Annemehr: You say that Harry hasn't sacrificed, but that he has risked life and limb often enough. To me, they are pretty much the same thing -- Harry puts his life on the line; it's just that he hasn't actually lost it (yet). So, yes, I think we can say that Harry is willing to sacrifice his own life and see his friends sacrifice their own in order to save the WW or even one young witch (Ginny). When Harry went after the Stone and when he went after Ginny, he knew he might lose his life either time (and almost *did*). He also thought he was in danger when he chased Padfoot and Ron into the Whomping Willow. Harry agreed with Ron risking his life in the chess match, because Ron was the one who *could* make it possible for the others to go on. He also let Ron and Hermione stand up with him against Sirius Black (the supposed traitor).* The fact that they all ended up alive does not negate any of it, and it doesn't give us or Harry any assurance that they will all survive in the future fight. And yeah, Harry did lose that last Quidditch match in PS/SS by his deliberate choice to go after the Stone and winding up unconscious in the hospital wing -- or are you looking for him to deliberately throw a game? ;-) I can't think of anything else (besides physical pain) he may have sacrificed, but you know, Harry doesn't *have* a whole lot to lose besides his own life, his friends, and his place in the Wizarding World -- and our list is *full* of theories about how he's going to lose them all! *This fact that Harry allowed Ron and Hermione risk their lives for him is telling. I think Harry perceives it as a noble act, and he sees his friends as just as capable of it as he is himself. I see it not as any kind of cowardice in Harry, but a virtue. Annemehr ME: No. I don't agree that Harry would sacrafice anybody else to save the WW. Endanger, yes. I mean, leading Ron and Hermoine after the Philosopher's Stone was a danger to all 3 of them. So was going into the Chamber of Secrets with Ron (and Lockhart). But that's not quite the same thing. He did so with all hopes that they would get back alive even as he realized they might not. But would he actually kill Ron or stand by and allow Ron to be killed to save the WW? I think he might not be capable of doing that although he's fully capable of allowing himself to be killed in Ron's place. Danger and fatal certainty are not quite the same thing really. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat May 24 19:55:18 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:55:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's Message-ID: <106.2393b7ba.2c012826@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58592 Odile (confident that our excellent friends in the UK will be kind enough to explain this to her... ) How kind! Unfortunately it isn't *always* possible to explain JKR's idiosyncrasies just by dint of being British, but I'll give it a go. >Back to res Harrius Pottericus, why is it that some >female teachers are addressed as "Madame" (Madame >Pomfrey, Madame Hooch) and some are addressed as >"Professor" (Professor McGonagall)? I know that this >is (probably) movie contamination, but I always >wondered about it because in film version of CoS, >Dumbledore addresses Sprout as both Madame and >Professor. They're not interchangeable, are they? Is >"Madame" an honorific? Eloise: I hadn't noticed that in the movie. IIRC, the only two females *at Hogwarts* regularly addressed as Madam are Madam Hooch and Madam Pomfrey. I assume this is because neither of them is a teacher of an *academic* subject (Madam Pomfrey isn't a teacher at all). Although sports science is treated as an academic subject in the Muggle world, I think the WW is too old-fashioned for that. The academic anomaly is Madame Maxime. But then I presume this is to do with the fact of her being French-speaking and possibly more to do with her characterisation, than anything else. We see other examples of the use of "Madam" as a title: Madam Malkin, Madam Rosmerta. I think it just another of those WW archaisms. Although not exactly: "Mistress" in alliance with a name would be a true archaism. In British English I think that Madam, or Ma'am, is more usually (even *was* more usually) used on its own *without* being accompanied by a name. But in the Potterverse, it seems that "Madam" is a respectful form of address for an adult witch. So why not Madam Weasley I hear you all clamour? Good question. Which leads me to think that perhaps it's the title used by "professional" women (other than teaching academics) And as I have said before, "Professor" is simply an old-fashioned term for a school teacher. Odile: >And while I'm at it, why is Voldemort a "Lord," yet >the seemingly aristocratic Malfoy is "Mister"? Or is >that movie contamination as well? Eloise: I think someone else has already pointed out that Voldemort *assumed* the title "Lord" for himself. OTOH, Dumbledore uses it and Snape, amongst others, talks of the Dark Lord. We *assume* that Malfoy is aritstocratic from his name, his wealth and the fact that he lives in a manor named after his family. I wonder, though if in the WW, there aren't *titles* as such. Not the kind of inherited titles that we have. What about Nearly Headless Nick? The Bloody Baron? Sir Properly Decapitated-Podmore, then? No probs! These are *Muggle* titles inherited by those who just happened also to be wizards. But what the WW recognises is *magical* prowess, so that wherever Voldemort's title came from, his lordship in the Dark Arts is acknowledged by the WW at large. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sat May 24 21:09:06 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:09:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <20030524194940.98707.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58593 Ray: > > Forgive me for playing Voldy's advocate, but could you "count" for me a few times Harry has sacrificed? And don't try to bring up his parents, who sacrificed *themselves* for him, or living with the Dursley's, which he does not do by choice. > > > > Harry has risked life and limb often enough, but it's always "No, > Harry - you go on, I'll hold them off." while Harry hasn't lost so much as a Quidditch match by his deliberate choice. > > > > -- Ray Let's establish that when it comes to sacrifices, intent is just as valuable as deed. The fact that Ron didn't die on the chess board does not mean he wasn't willing to. And he had no way of knowing he would just be knocked out. He made a conscious choice to put his life at the mercy of that queen so Harry and Hermione might go further. As an aside, I want to talk about the Lily sacrifice for a minute. We don't know for sure, although it is certainly reasonable to suspect, that she knew what her dying for Harry would do. It was a rare and old counter-charm, so obscure and little-used that even as smart a wizard as V-Mort had forgotten about it. And we do have canon support for overwhelmingly good deeds producing powerful results without the wizard's intent. Harry certainly did not know he was going to create a life debt when he spared Wormtail, and he did not have to cast a spell beforehand to make it work, either. So, it is possible Lily's sacrifice was a completely independent act, made free of the machinations of Dumbledore. In fact, I kind of hope it was. Let that act of sacrifice stand without any help, I say. Now, back to Harry and his intents and deeds. Harry certainly throws his own safety to the wind many a time. Going after the stone -- with the WILLING help of Ron and Hermione, by the way. Going down to the Chamber -- no question that Ron was going to go, it was his sister down there. Going back in time wasn't as physically risky -- certainly less so than fighting a basilisk -- but it could have gotten he and Hermione into serious trouble that Dumbledore couldn't have fixed. But is he making a conscious "kill me or hurt me so others may live" sacrifice in any of these cases? No, but he certainly is putting himself in a position to be hurt or killed so others may live. But in the end, he hasn't, to my way of thinking, been faced with the decision Ron had to make on the chess board. Not yet, anyway. This is a hypothetical question. What if there was a way, down in the Chamber, for Harry to save Ginny by dying? I personally think he would have done that. Now, he has tried to sacrifice other things, less important than life itself, but still fairly important things. In GoF, Harry is willing, when Krum and even dear, sainted Cedric were not, to sacrifice his standing in the tournament to make sure everyone is saved. It turns out he didn't have to. In fact, he was a bit of a git for thinking he had. But he was willing to put their safety above his glory. Ditto for the whole Quest for the Stone in PS/SS. Harry was a pariah at school, thanks to helping lose so many points for Gryffindor. He could have played it safe, kept his head down, etc... He was willing to put his social standing andthe glory of Gryffindor - - you could make a case that wasn't his to give up, though -- to try and get the Stone. Turns out, he didn't make a sacrifice. Dumbledore made sure his deeds were recognized. Annemehr: > *This fact that Harry allowed Ron and Hermione risk their lives for > him is telling. I think Harry perceives it as a noble act, and he > sees his friends as just as capable of it as he is himself. I see it not as any kind of cowardice in Harry, but a virtue. One quibble: Harry doesn't "allow" anyone to do anything. Ron and Hermione can think for themselves. Had Harry tried to go after the Stone by himself, who is to say Hermione doesn't put the body bind on him until he agrees to let them go? And I'd like to have seen someone try to stop Ron from trying to help Ginny. But, annemehr is certainly right, Harry isn't a coward for accepting their help. Geez, did I miss someone trying to say he was? Darrin -- Darrin and the Quibbles. What do you think? From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat May 24 21:13:02 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:13:02 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Flee From Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58594 Yep, that's right! A Karkaroff filk! Flee From Voldemort (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune _The Night Before_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle09.html Karkaroff (Durmstrang Chorus): Was caught by Mad-Eye (ah...famous Auror) Sentenced for my crimes (ah...he broke the law) But to save my skin, I confessed my sins I'm no longer with Lord Voldemort I then testified (ah...'gainst Voldemort) And all his allies (ah...Death Eater corps) To Crouch I gave names, then my freedom came I am not a D.E. any more At Durmstrang I was hired and after some time I became the Headmaster and everything was fine Many years went by (ah...twelve years or more) I hoped he had died (ah..Lord Voldemort) The mark on my arm was cause for alarm It meant the return of Voldemort Snape said, "What's the fuss?", but I was nervous Don't want to face a mad Voldemort My fellow Death Eaters I publicly decried And because of my betrayal I know that I'm despised I recall the night (ah...couldn't ignore) I was mortified (ah...was like before) Dark Mark's burning black, it must mean he's back Had to run and flee from Voldemort Flee from Voldemort -Gail B...who is strangely amused by Karkaroff :)> _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat May 24 21:26:17 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 17:26:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58595 runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com writes: > You say that Harry hasn't sacrificed, but that he has risked life and > limb often enough. To me, they are pretty much the same thing -- > Harry puts his life on the line; it's just that he hasn't actually > lost it (yet). So, yes, I think we can say that Harry is willing to > sacrifice his own life and see his friends sacrifice their own in > order to save the WW or even one young witch (Ginny). > > And yeah, Harry did lose that last Quidditch match in PS/SS by his > deliberate choice to go after the Stone and winding up unconscious in > the hospital wing -- or are you looking for him to deliberately throw > a game? ;-) You're confusing "risk" and "sacrifice". "risk" implies *possible* consequences, and young folk like HRH never believe these consequences apply to them. Harry has more reason than anyone to believe that he is immortal and invulnerable. "Sacrifice" implies the certainty of loss, even as small one (such as in baseball, when you "sacrifice" an out to score a run or move runners up a base). To follow along with Buffy, which was the original example, she has twice sacrificed her life to stop an apocalypse. The first time, at the end of Season 1, she goes to fight The Master, even though her death has been foretold. She chose to fight, even though she expected to die (which, technically she did, but she was revived) I don't want to get into a long OT discussion of Buffy (well, actually I *do*, but I won't). I'll just mention that both Buffy and Harry have sacrificed a "normal life" to be what they are. However, in Harry's case, I don't think was very much of a loss. -- Ray www.buffycon.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 24 21:42:48 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:42:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: . > Harry has more reason than anyone to believe that he is immortal and invulnerable. "Sacrifice" implies the certainty of loss, even as small one (such as in baseball, when you "sacrifice" an out to score a run or move runners up a > base). << Harry's death has been foretold numerous times and not just by Prof. Trelawney. Bane the Centaur seems to think it's in the stars. He's very angry at Firenze for saving Harry from Voldemort in the forest. Firenze wishes Harry good luck, saying the stars may be read wrongly even by centaurs. Harry had every reason to think he and his friends would be killed if they encountered Snape or Voldemort in the dungeons, which was a certainty once they realized someone had already entered the trapdoor ahead of them. He offers to sacrifice his friends' help in order to save their lives, telling them to go back, but they refuse. Harry also sacrifices his opportunity to get revenge on Pettigrew, and his chance to be the sole winner of the Tri-Wizard Cup. Pippin From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 24 17:29:08 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:29:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's hair and status) In-Reply-To: <20030524121922.24009.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030524172908.57330.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58597 Odile Falaise wrote: Patti muddied the cross-Atlantic waters a little more by writing: <<>> And now I [Odile] am going to make the waters even murkier: Back to res Harrius Pottericus, why is it that some female teachers are addressed as "Madame" (Madame Pomfrey, Madame Hooch) and some are addressed as "Professor" (Professor McGonagall)? I know that this is (probably) movie contamination, but I always wondered about it because in film version of CoS, Dumbledore addresses Sprout as both Madame and Professor. They're not interchangeable, are they? Is "Madame" an honorific? And while I'm at it, why is Voldemort a "Lord," yet the seemingly aristocratic Malfoy is "Mister"? Or is that movie contamination as well? Robert (in the UK) You are getting into very murky water with this line of thought. We call Doctors (medical) Doctor, but we call Surgeons (Higher rank) Mr. (Mister). Talking too a University Lecturer we would call him Sir (nothing to do with a Knighthood), talking about him we would say Professor, only provided he had a Ph.D., otherwise he will be Mr. As for Madame, it can be used to refer to "almost" any either married or older women, it is in no way derogetory. So Mr. L. Malfoy is only a Mr., Lord V. is a name and not a title. Are Mamames Pomfrey and Hooch Ph.D's., IMO no. I do nt know if I have made things any clearer? Robert Yahoo! 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Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From indyattic at earthlink.net Sat May 24 23:02:19 2003 From: indyattic at earthlink.net (indyattic) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 23:02:19 -0000 Subject: Squibs, Wizards, Witches and Warlocks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58598 I would like to revisit the theory that the wizarding world rejects the sqibs. I'm not convinced of it, and am wondering if anybody else thinks that perhaps Madam Rosmerta might be a squib? I have a Canadian version of POA, and on page 152 Fudge is explaining some of the Black situation to her. Fudge: "Dumbledore told {James and Lily} that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm." "How does that work?" said Madame Rosmerta, breathless with interest. To me it seems that if Rosmerta was a witch she would already know about how the Fidelus Charm worked. On page 149, we meet Rosmerta for the first time. She is described as "A curvy sort of woman with a pretty face serving a bunch of rowdy warlocks up at the bar." I'm a bit of a loss here. To me, an American, curvy conjures up an image of a Marilyn Monroe-type hourglass figure. But does it mean the same thing to the Brits? On page 151, we hear Rosemerta say "I remember {Black} when he was a boy at Hogwarts." And on pages 151 and 152 we get McGonagall: "Do you remember who his best friend was?" "Naturally," said Madam Rosmerta, with a small laugh. "Never saw one without the other, did you? The number of times I had them in here - oooh, they used to make me laugh. Quite the double act, Sirius Black and James Potter!" The above statement indicates that she was already tending bar when Black and James Potter were attending Hogwarts, so she is older than them. Combined with the physical description of a younger woman, which could indicate the slower aging process, and a demonstrated lack of advanced magical knowledge, I present my theory that Madame Rosmerta is perhaps a squib working in the wizarding world. Angie From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 25 00:14:23 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 00:14:23 -0000 Subject: Squibs, Wizards, Witches and Warlocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58599 Angie wrote: > > Fudge: "Dumbledore told {James and Lily} that their best chance was > the Fidelius Charm." "How does that work?" said Madame Rosmerta, > breathless with interest. > > To me it seems that if Rosmerta was a witch she would already know > about how the Fidelus Charm worked. Not necessarily. I don't know if we can assume that every witch and wizard knows every single spell or charm, particularly one that seems as difficult as the Fidelius charm. Let's of course remember that Madame Rosmerta is a wonderful foil to explain plot points to. > On page 151, we hear Rosemerta say "I remember {Black} when he was a > boy at Hogwarts." > > And on pages 151 and 152 we get McGonagall: "Do you remember who his > best friend was?" "Naturally," said Madam Rosmerta, with a small > laugh. "Never saw one without the other, did you? The number of times > I had them in here - oooh, they used to make me laugh. Quite the double act, Sirius Black and James Potter!" > The above statement indicates that she was already tending bar when > Black and James Potter were attending Hogwarts, so she is older than > them. Combined with the physical description of a younger woman, > which could indicate the slower aging process, and a demonstrated > lack of advanced magical knowledge, I present my theory that Madame > Rosmerta is perhaps a squib working in the wizarding world. Sure, but in the U.S, we have bartenders that are 21. Say she was in her early 20s. The difference between Sirius and James' third- year, the earliest they would have been allowed to go to Hogsmeade and meet Mdme. Rosmerta -- and POA is about 15-20 years. PoA takes place in 1993, and I believe Black and James graduated in 1978 or 1979. That makes their third year 1974 or 1975, so about 18 years difference. That would put her in her late 30s. And it doesn't not necessarily follow that she was there when they hit third- year. She could have started working in their sixth- or seven-year, which would put her in her mid-30s -- still very babalicious years. It's entirely possible she's a squib. Canon certainly doesn't say otherwise. But I don't think it says much in the other direction either. Darrin -- Babalicious Bar Wenches from Babylon. The next great boy band. From patricia at obscure.org Sun May 25 00:22:30 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Squibs, Wizards, Witches and Warlocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58600 On Sat, 24 May 2003, indyattic wrote: > I would like to revisit the theory that the wizarding world rejects > the sqibs. I'm not convinced of it, and am wondering if anybody else > thinks that perhaps Madam Rosmerta might be a squib? I have a > Canadian version of POA, and on page 152 Fudge is explaining some of > the Black situation to her. > > Fudge: "Dumbledore told {James and Lily} that their best chance was > the Fidelius Charm." "How does that work?" said Madame Rosmerta, > breathless with interest. > > To me it seems that if Rosmerta was a witch she would already know > about how the Fidelus Charm worked. Not necessarily. No one can know about every charm, the Fidelius Charm seems to be quite specialized and uncommon, and Madam Rosmerta would have little call for it in her line of work. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that she could be a witch but never have heard of it. Would you also expect Stan Shunpike to know the ins and outs of the Fidelius Charm? There does seem to be a "working class" of wizards who don't have a need for really advanced spells but are magical people nonetheless. > The above statement indicates that she was already tending bar when > Black and James Potter were attending Hogwarts, so she is older than > them. Combined with the physical description of a younger woman, > which could indicate the slower aging process, and a demonstrated > lack of advanced magical knowledge, I present my theory that Madame > Rosmerta is perhaps a squib working in the wizarding world. A few comments: First, there is no reason a woman in her late 30s or 40s could not be a knockout, even in the Muggle world. That would still make her older than Sirius and Co., and wouldn't have any bearing on whether or not she is magical. Second, would squibs get the slowed aging advantages that wizards have? If wizards live longer than muggles because of magical medicince, then I would say yes. But if wizards live longer because of their inherent magic, then squibs would not live any longer or age any slower than muggles since squibs have no personal magic, despite their magical ancestry. We don't really know why magical folk live longer at this point so I can't really answer the question, but it's worth thinking about. My impression from Ron's comments about squibs is that they are really rare. I wouldn't expect to find them everywhere. (Then again, animagi are supposed to be really rare and they keep popping up around every corner.) I do have to wonder why it would matter if Rosmerta is a squib. There is a narative reason for Filch to be one, but I can't see how it adds to the story (what we've seen of it so far) for Rosmerta to be magic-less. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From editor at texas.net Sun May 25 00:32:08 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 19:32:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Anger Management References: Message-ID: <002201c32255$14490480$a504a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58601 > An ominous cloud of white smoke hung motionless in the still air, > the ventilation system whirring pointlessly in the background. It stopped hanging and swooped lower to hear, as > Cindy rose slowly from her chair and lumbered to the make-shift > plywood podium near the bar. She reached for a pitcher of tepid > water and poured it into her glass, her hands shaking only slightly, > and took a small sip. Placing her glass carefully on the tottering > podium, she finally looked up at the crowd. "My name is Captain > Cindy, and I --" > There was an awkward pause as the theorists waited expectantly. "Go > on," George urged patiently. > "I --" Cindy faltered, her eyes cast downward, her weathered hands > gripping the sides of the podium. "And I'm a Rage-aholic," she > finished. "Oh, was *that* all..." thought the cloud, considering drifting up and hanging again. Really not much to do until the hurricane hit, though, she thought--may as well stay here and see what they're on about... > "Well, yeah," Cindy said. "But I'm very concerned that something > about OoP will enrage me and I will fling my brand new hardcover > copy of OoP into a *roaring* fire in the Mother of All Hissy Fits." > "Ooooh," George said slowly, rubbing his chin, his brow knitted. "I > *do* see your problem. Yes . . . yes, this could be serious -- > those books are *expensive.* Besides, what are the chances that > *you* could read a book and not find something outrageous, something > that offends you deeply?" > "I'm thinking about zero," Cindy said glumly. "OoP isn't even > released yet, and already I'm getting ticked off." The cloud drifted idly lower. > "I think OoP will suffer from 'Low Hanging Fruit Syndrome'!" Time to get involved, the cloud thought... > "Low Hanging Fruit Syndrome?" Amanda echoed blankly. > "That's right," Cindy said. "OoP will be filled with wonderful > opportunities for JKR to do the unexpected. But she won't. She'll > go for the safe bet. The easy way out. *The Low Hanging Fruit.*" "So *that's* it," thought Amandageist, and remained, listening. > "But she's never done that before," objected Jo Serenadust from the > far left part of the room. > "That's true. But we have a situation where JKR seems to have set > up the obvious, and I'm thinking she is just going to go for the > obvious. Like MemoryCharm!Neville. It would be so much more daring > and interesting for her to go with ReverseMemoryCharm!Neville or one > of the other complex Neville theories. But she won't, will she? > You know she won't. She'll give us MemoryCharmButtKicking!Neville, > who is as *PREDICTABLE* as he can possibly be!" she shrieked. > Cindy whipped around and launched her water glass with all of her > might in the general direction of the fireplace. It exploded > against the wall, spraying the mantel and pool table with razor- > sharp shards. "And that," Cindy howled, "is what is going to make > me *CRAZY!* Mrs. Figg will be Good! Real Moody will be Good! > Hagrid will be Good to the bitter end! If JKR takes the Low Hanging > Fruit, I will scream a long and deadly scream that will pierce the > walls of her big ol' Scottish mansion! And then I will throw my > book straight into George's fireplace! But it will do no good. > Because OoP will already be *RUINED!*" Amandageist watched as a bit of a scuffle ensued between one of the Elkinsi and Cindy. > "Uh . . . unless someone has some suggestions for Cindy that might > actually be helpful," George panted, "maybe we should take a > break." He shoved Cindy hard in the direction of the fireplace and > gave her a withering stare, daring her to move. "And *you!*" he > hissed. "You stay right there! I'm going down to the basement to > see if I have more glasses. *Plastic* ones this time!" Amandageist drifted down and swooped over Cindy, so that the captain was bathed in icy mist for a second or two. It seemed to have the desired effect; she cooled off for the moment and sat down as George disappeared down the stairs. The rest of the crowd, fearful of mayhem or geist-mist, withdrew and resumed their conversations, shooting glances over occasionally. "Cindy," Amandageist said, "you're overreacting, and you don't even have anything to overreact to yet." "WHAT?" Cindy jerked her head up to look at the geist. "And could you float at a more comfortable conversation level?" "Sorry," and the geist floated down to hover about four feet above the floor. "Listen. JKR has done the predictable before. She does loads of predictable stuff. Her work fits perfectly into what I've heard termed 'fair' mysteries, ones you could figure out; she provides the necessary details. No, wait" as Cindy began to object, "Let me qualify that. JKR writes 'fair' mysteries that any person who grew up with a knowledge of the wizarding world could figure out. We, the readers, do not have the requisite background. It's not that she's hiding anything--we just don't have all the context required to put the pieces together. It is her strength and her charm that she can feed us both the mystery and the context, so braided together and gradually, that we do not resent her for springing the answers on us at the ends of the books. Rather, we think, 'of course!' and are delighted to finally know." Cindy was nodding slowly, seeing the sense but still wanting to be upset. It was, after all, what she did best, and she had a reputation to maintain. There's no jumping on a geist, though, she thought; why waste the energy? She relaxed and kept listening. "So," Amandageist continued, "I fully expect a good bit of what happens in OoP to be the obvious. But has this woman's creativity taught you nothing? Even the *photos* in the wizarding world are out of the ordinary. Even if she *does* take the low-hanging fruit, it'll be a type of fruit none of us has ever seen before, probably one that bites or changes you into a lizard." "But bangs..." Cindy began. "Yeah, I know. We've all had so much time to work out these totally bizarre theories that at this point they're the only things that make sense to us. You should do what I do and believe in theories that *are* obvious. Snape loving Lily, Neville being memory charmed--so what if they're obvious? I can't *wait* to find out all the details! They're going to be nothing like I expected, because they're going to come through the filter of JKR's vision and creativity. If Snape's task was to go back to Voldemort, that's a broad, obvious conclusion. But there are *millions* of ways she could structure that. Sure, I want to know what his task is. But if it turns out to be the obvious, I still get all the fun of experiencing JKR's presentation of the whats, whys, and wherefores." She swooped closer, hovering with her face near Cindy's, speaking earnestly. "So *what* if the end product is expected? Think of the *journey*! You're focusing on the goal, the ultimate answers, only! But the treasures of these books are every bit as much in the path *to* those answers. Chill out, dear," Amandageist finished. "Are you okay now, or do I need to do another pass?" "No, thanks," Cindy shivered. "I'll be fine. But, you know, the MD people might be even more upset than I am, if JKR takes the low-hanging fruit." Amandageist laughed. "Oh, won't they just. But they've been trying to get that appliance to work correctly since they installed it. They'll find a way for MD to work even if JKR comes right out and states its negation in so many words. I wouldn't worry about them. They'll be fine; they simply won't allow themselves to disbelieve. It will all be a very clever ruse by JKR or Dumbledore. You saw how they reinforced the building the dishwasher's in, against the hurricane." Cindy laughed too, and managed a smile. "Okay, I guess I can wait until OoP comes out before I start reacting to it. Want a pass through my drink? Can you taste it if it's very strong?" "Almost," Amandageist sighed. ------------------- From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Sun May 25 00:38:02 2003 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 00:38:02 -0000 Subject: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's In-Reply-To: <106.2393b7ba.2c012826@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58602 --- In HPforGrownups, eloiseherisson wrote: Odile wrote: > >Back to res Harrius Pottericus, why is it that some > >female teachers are addressed as "Madame" (Madame > >Pomfrey, Madame Hooch) and some are addressed as > >"Professor" (Professor McGonagall)? I know that this > >is (probably) movie contamination, but I always > >wondered about it because in film version of CoS, > >Dumbledore addresses Sprout as both Madame and > >Professor. They're not interchangeable, are they? Is > >"Madame" an honorific? > > Eloise: > I hadn't noticed that in the movie. > IIRC, the only two females *at Hogwarts* regularly addressed as > Madam are Madam Hooch and Madam Pomfrey. I assume this is > because neither of them is a teacher of an *academic* subject > (Madam Pomfrey isn't a teacher at all). Although sports science > is treated as an academic subject in the Muggle world, I think > the WW is too old-fashioned for that. I think perhaps the distinction is whether they by virtue of their positions conduct a final examination of students or not. I do not recall there ever being mentioned anything about passing flying, only that you needed to take (survive) the class - and apparently only in first year. Otherwise her role seems to be supervising Quidditch. With Madams Pomfrey and Pince there would be no examinations anyway, of course. [snip] > But in the Potterverse, it seems that "Madam" is a respectful > form of address for an adult witch. > > So why not Madam Weasley I hear you all clamour? > Good question. Which leads me to think that perhaps it's the > title used by "professional" women (other than teaching > academics) I do like this thought. > Odile: > >And while I'm at it, why is Voldemort a "Lord," yet > >the seemingly aristocratic Malfoy is "Mister"? Or is > >that movie contamination as well? [snip] > OTOH, Dumbledore uses it and Snape, amongst others, talks of > the Dark Lord. We *assume* that Malfoy is aritstocratic from > his name, his wealth and the fact that he lives in a manor > named after his family. > > I wonder, though if in the WW, there aren't *titles* as such. > Not the kind of inherited titles that we have. > What about Nearly Headless Nick? The Bloody Baron? Sir Properly > Decapitated-Podmore, then? > No probs! These are *Muggle* titles inherited by those who just > happened also to be wizards. Well, the title "Sir" is, with exception of baronets, not inheritable, and I do believe beheadings had ceased being common by the time baronetcies were commonly handed out (well, sold - ?1095, the same sum required to keep a force of 30 infantrymen in Ulster for three years; useful way for the Crown to raise money for the army!). Wizards might well have given such services to Crown and Country that knighthoods or peerages may have been thought a suitable reward. Also, I do not believe we know that the Malfoys live in a manor, much less that it is called Malfoy Manor - it is common enough in fanfics, but as I recall, it comes from Harry in one of the books thinking somewhat derisively about Draco probably living in some large manor, with servants to both hands, and so on - and Harry did not assume a name, as such. Incidentally, if the home of the Malfoys is actually a proper manor (a property which holds certain feudal rights), and has been in the possession of the Malfoy-family for the duration of the existance of Malfoys, they may well hold that to be much more honourable than any "new" title. Best regards Christian Stub? From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sun May 25 03:15:39 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (rosich10002) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 03:15:39 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Photos and Paintings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58603 I was pondering the images in the wizarding world, and I wondered. Do photographs talk? Or only paintings? How much of the person's personality gets infused in the image? We've seen Harry's image physically protesting being in the same image as Lockhart. And we've seen Sirius Black blankly staring and blinking. Dumbledore's image merely appears and disappears in his chocolate frog wizard card. Other moving (but not speaking) images have included the goblins at Gringotts, the Weasley family on holiday and the flying Ford Anglia (all in the Daily Prophet). Also, there are photos in the book collection Hagrid made for Harry of his parents, and I don't recall much about their character. But have we seen any other wizarding world photographs? Any talking photos? A related thought---The portraits have the power to block entryway, move about, speak, even gossip with one another. There's been conjecture on this list about their importance in informing Dumbledore, etc. But what about the photographs? Was Colin Creevey's photography only a plot device to protect him from the basilisk? Or will it play a bigger role in the future? I cant help but wonder. Gina From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 25 03:39:09 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 22:39:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice References: Message-ID: <000c01c3226f$3428a8e0$62ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58604 Darrin wrote: > In GoF, Harry is willing, when Krum and even dear, sainted Cedric > were not, to sacrifice his standing in the tournament to make sure > everyone is saved. It turns out he didn't have to. In fact, he was a > bit of a git for thinking he had. > > But he was willing to put their safety above his glory. > > Ditto for the whole Quest for the Stone in PS/SS. Harry was a pariah > at school, thanks to helping lose so many points for Gryffindor. He > could have played it safe, kept his head down, etc... > > He was willing to put his social standing andthe glory of Gryffindor - > - you could make a case that wasn't his to give up, though -- to try > and get the Stone. I actually think Harry was willing to sacrifice his life here. I am thinking of the speech he gave to Ron and Hermione in the Gryffindor common room before going after Voldemort. I can't get at my books right now, but the gist of it was that house points and all the other little stuff they had been worried about meant nothing in the face of Voldemort getting that stone, that if Voldemort got the stone, they were as good as dead because Voldemort would come back. Harry believes at this point that he will die. If he goes after Voldemort and tries to prevent him getting the stone, he believes he will die because Voldemort (or Snape, as he thought Snape was involved, too) will kill him. Harry does not believe himself capable of surviving a duel with a full-fledged wizard, but he believes that someone needs to try to stop this or else Voldemort * will* come back and then even more people will die. On the other hand, if he does not go after the stone, he will not die right away, but later when he's at the Dursleys. Granted, this isn't quite the same situation as Ron was in, where one choice would give him life and one would give him what he thought was death, but my point is that Harry did not go down there thinking he was going to sacrifice only points and social standing, but his life. In short, he considered it forfeit at this point, and if he was going to go out, he was going to choose the manner of his death. He chose to fight against Voldemort and his allies instead of cowering in fear waiting for Voldemort to get around to seeking him out and killing him in his hidey-hole. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 25 03:45:10 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 22:45:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Photos and Paintings References: Message-ID: <001001c32270$0b658530$62ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58605 Gina wrote: > I was pondering the images in the wizarding world, and I wondered. Do > photographs talk? Or only paintings? How much of the person's personality > gets infused in the image? > > We've seen Harry's image physically protesting being in the same image as > Lockhart. And we've seen Sirius Black blankly staring and blinking. > Dumbledore's image merely appears and disappears in his chocolate frog > wizard card. Other moving (but not speaking) images have included the > goblins at Gringotts, the Weasley family on holiday and the flying Ford Anglia > (all in the Daily Prophet). Also, there are photos in the book collection Hagrid > made for Harry of his parents, and I don't recall much about their character. > But have we seen any other wizarding world photographs? Any talking > photos? I have heard that people in some cultures fear having their photos taken because they believe that a little piece of their souls have been captured. I am not positive if this is true or which cultures, but I have heard this more than once. On thinking on the wizard photos, I do wonder if JK borrowed this belief. When the picture of Harry and Lockhart was taken, Harry may have been standing there allowing the picture to be taken, but inside he really wanted to squirm away and get out of there. The picture reflects this. We see the pictures in Harry's book where everyone is happy and waving and smiling. I am in particular thinking of the wedding picture with Sirius in it. This would reflect their inner feelings at the time as well, since it was a wonderful day for all three people. The later picture of Sirius, on the other hand, from the Daily Prophet, is an accurate reflection of the state of his soul after being in Azkaban for over a decade. I don't believe the photos are capable of actually speaking, but are more just a reflection of the subject(s) soul(s) at the instant of taking, their thoughts and feelings at the time of capture. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun May 25 03:47:48 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 03:47:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > Annemehr: > > *This fact that Harry allowed Ron and Hermione risk their lives for > > him is telling. I think Harry perceives it as a noble act, and he > > sees his friends as just as capable of it as he is himself. I see > it not as any kind of cowardice in Harry, but a virtue. > > One quibble: Harry doesn't "allow" anyone to do anything. Annemehr: Okay, bad choice of a word, maybe, but he certainly didn't object, and I think that's for the reason you quoted me on above. Back to Darrin: Ron and > Hermione can think for themselves. Had Harry tried to go after the > Stone by himself, who is to say Hermione doesn't put the body bind on > him until he agrees to let them go? And I'd like to have seen someone > try to stop Ron from trying to help Ginny. Annemehr: My quibble here. These examples are slightly different, as they *all* were going together to save something or someone else. In the S. Shack, Ron and Hermione risked themselves to defend *Harry* (as they thought at the time). > > But, annemehr is certainly right, Harry isn't a coward for accepting > their help. Geez, did I miss someone trying to say he was? Annemehr: No one said that, it was just another thought beside the main point that I thought was significant. That's why I stuck it in a footnote. And, to Huggs Becky, I also do not think that *Harry* would sacrifice someone, but IMO we have seen that he would accept, say, Ron sacrificing *himself* for the right cause, if he saw that it was neccesary. > > Darrin > -- Darrin and the Quibbles. What do you think? Yeah, sure. Or Annemehr and the Footnotes. Hmm, lacks a certain zing... Annemehr in general agreement with Darrin, again...(General Agreement -- could be the name of *something*). From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 25 03:50:20 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 22:50:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's References: <106.2393b7ba.2c012826@aol.com> Message-ID: <001401c32270$c451e9d0$62ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58607 > Odile: > >And while I'm at it, why is Voldemort a "Lord," yet > >the seemingly aristocratic Malfoy is "Mister"? Or is > >that movie contamination as well? > > Eloise: > I think someone else has already pointed out that Voldemort *assumed* the > title "Lord" for himself. > > OTOH, Dumbledore uses it and Snape, amongst others, talks of the Dark Lord. > We *assume* that Malfoy is aritstocratic from his name, his wealth and the > fact that he lives in a manor named after his family. Kelly: I believe I was the one who pointed the "assume" bit out. Anyway, your next comment reminds me of something I've thought on before. You mention that Snape uses the term "Dark Lord." Is it just me, or are the majority of the people who use this term either DE's or associated with them somehow (like Dobby)? I have never gone through the books and kept track of who exactly uses this term of address for V, but I do know there are a couple of people who have not been proven to have real ties to the DE's that use it. If I recall correctly, Fudge is one of them. Anyway, it does seem to me the majority of people who use it are DE-linked, which makes me suspicious of the few who have no proven ties. Has this come up before? What do the rest of you think? Am I totally off base here? Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun May 25 04:11:08 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 04:11:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58608 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > runningbecky2002 at y... writes: Annemehr: This is me, actually, although Becky posted a reply: > > > You say that Harry hasn't sacrificed, but that he has risked life and > > limb often enough. To me, they are pretty much the same thing -- > > Harry puts his life on the line; it's just that he hasn't actually > > lost it (yet). So, yes, I think we can say that Harry is willing to > > sacrifice his own life and see his friends sacrifice their own in > > order to save the WW or even one young witch (Ginny). > > > > And yeah, Harry did lose that last Quidditch match in PS/SS by his > > deliberate choice to go after the Stone and winding up unconscious in > > the hospital wing -- or are you looking for him to deliberately throw > > a game? ;-) > > You're confusing "risk" and "sacrifice". "risk" implies *possible* > consequences, and young folk like HRH never believe these consequences apply to them. > Harry has more reason than anyone to believe that he is immortal and > invulnerable. "Sacrifice" implies the certainty of loss, even as small one (such as in > baseball, when you "sacrifice" an out to score a run or move runners up a > base). I wasn't confusing them, exactly. I'll try to explain as clearly as I can. Harry has not had the situation come up where he would have to knowingly sacrifice his life or powers. This is not under his control; it will either happen or not. He has had plenty of situations come up where he has had to risk his life, and those times he did it willingly. As it happened, he was not killed. He certainly did try to succeed in his undertakings while staying alive, but the outcome was not entirely in his hands -- despite his best efforts, he may still have died. > To follow along with Buffy, which was the original example, she has twice > sacrificed her life to stop an apocalypse. The first time, at the end of Season > 1, she goes to fight The Master, even though her death has been foretold. She > chose to fight, even though she expected to die (which, technically she did, > but she was revived) I see what you're getting at now. I don't watch Buffy, so I didn't realise what you meant at first. Yes, there is some difference between *risking* your life and facing *certain* death, and the only time Harry did the latter, there was no sacrifice to make, just to stand up straight and die fighting like his father rather than cowering behind a headstone. > > I don't want to get into a long OT discussion of Buffy (well, actually I > *do*, but I won't). I'll just mention that both Buffy and Harry have sacrificed a > "normal life" to be what they are. However, in Harry's case, I don't think > was very much of a loss. > > -- Ray > www.buffycon.org True: Harry did realise he'd rather live at Hogwarts and face a dragon rather than go back to the Dursleys. And if Harry ever does face "certain death" to save the WW (or even just one person), then we can discuss some more! Annemehr "Certain Death" would be a lousy name for a band, even if it sounds cool. From jhlupin at hotmail.com Sun May 25 00:54:46 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 00:54:46 -0000 Subject: Squibs, Wizards, Witches and Warlocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "indyattic" wrote: > I would like to revisit the theory that the wizarding world rejects > the sqibs. I'm not convinced of it, and am wondering if anybody else > thinks that perhaps Madam Rosmerta might be a squib? Hogsmeade is the only fully wizarding community in Great Britain, as HG points out to the gang in PoA. It is completely muggle-free. I think this implies it would be squib free as well. It would be hard to make the claim of a completely wizarding community if one of it's more prominent citizens and business persons was not a wizard. LH From jhlupin at hotmail.com Sun May 25 01:09:08 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:09:08 -0000 Subject: The Quill (was Re: Harry's sacrifice) In-Reply-To: <20030524185837.54873.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58610 > And now me (Odile): > I think that is why Gran Longbottom refused to accept > that little Neville, whose parents were powerful > aurors, was a Muggle/Squib, and why she and Uncle > Algie were so adamant about "forcing magic out of > him." [PS, p. 93] Neville goes on to say, "...you > should have seen their faces when I got in here - they > thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see." > [ibid] Evidently, Gran Longbottom and Uncle Algie, > judging by that statement, did not have prior > knowledge. LH: I don't know that anything has diminished Neville's magical potential. I believe his abilities are currently *impaired* because his memory has been tampered with, and therefore his resulting cognitive dysfunction doesn't allow him to achieve that potential. I don't know if Gran and Algie are aware of the memory wiping to which he was subject. A case could be made either way that they were aware and were attempting to , or they were not aware and were concerned about his magical potential and were pushing him to discover it. They have obviously told Neville the latter, but it doesn't mean it's true. The former theory would explain the gift of the Rememberall nicely. We are certain to see more of Neville's true potential in the coming books, and it will likely be pivotal to the seventh book. LH From kim.dawkins at charter.net Sun May 25 05:04:29 2003 From: kim.dawkins at charter.net (Kimberly Dawkins) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 00:04:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Photos and Paintings In-Reply-To: <001001c32270$0b658530$62ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <5D40FC5E-8E6E-11D7-BDB5-000393827B3E@charter.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58611 On Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 10:45 PM, Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > ...I don't believe the photos are capable of actually speaking, but > are more just a reflection of the subject(s) soul(s) at the instant of > taking, their thoughts and feelings at the time of capture. Me: Just a quick thought on this. Agreed, we have not had any indication that the photographs speak, but I think the photos can be more than just a reflection of the feelings at the time of capture. Remember Percy's photo of Penelope Clearwater in PoA that is hiding her face after Ron supposedly spilled something on it. That spillage is a new development for the photo to be dealing with, which I think implies some kind of separate consciousness of the photo itself. (Of course, I can see where PC could have been so concerned about looking good for PW when the photo was taken that that feeling could be influencing the actions of the photo.) Also, there is Ron's comment to Harry on the train in SS/PS about Dumbledore not being expected to hang around all day on the chocolate frog card. I think this statement from Ron, who often gives us our view into what is acceptable/normal in the WW, is letting us know that the photos just do things, such as come and go, of their own volition. (But, to second guess myself again, I can imagine that the chocolate frog cards act differently than regular photos because there would be many cards of the same image, thus causing the Dumbledore image to have to move amongst all the chocolate frog cards to give each one some play time as opposed to the PC photo or Harry's family photos which are probably one of a kind and so remain.) Whatever the abilities, what a clever and fun concept to have moving images in photographs! Kudos to JKR!! On another topic, as long as I'm here now: Has there been any discussion on why Ron brought a rat to school in the first place? I didn't see anything about this in the FAQs. The subject of student pets was brought up just the other day, but no one mentioned that the Hogwart's letter listed toad, cat, or owl, but not anything about a rat. So how is it Ron brought Scabbers to school? Kim (whose kids are in bed, finally : - )) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun May 25 07:11:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 07:11:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vixx_y" wrote: > ...edited... > > ...would Harry be prepared to sacrifice in his fight? I think that > he would give his own life without a thought - but what if he had > to give Hermione's, or Ron's? I think he could give those two, > actually. > ...edited... > > Any thoughts? > > Vix bboy_mn: We are sliding on the very sharp edge of symatics here. Would Harry sacrifice himself? Yes, he has proven that many times. Would Harry allow someone else to sacrifice themselves? Yes, sort of. Harry allowed Ron to sacrifice himself in the chess game, but he resisted the idea until Ron convinced him it was the only way. In the end, he didn't allow Ron to sacrifice himself, he merely respected Ron's decision to do so. Would Harry ask someone to sacrifice themselves? No, he would let them, but he wouldn't ask them. Harry is selfless, he doesn't ask people for help. When Harry went after the Stone, he didn't allow Ron and Hermoine to come along. He didn't ask them to come, or expect them to come, or encourage them in any way. He was going, that was that. If they decided to come along, then he respected their decision, but the only choices or allowances he made were based on his own actions. I'm very sure he was glad they came with, but he seems surprised when Hermoine and Ron act as if it were alway assumed that they would come along. Harry made his own choice for himself, and he allowed others to choose for themselves. So would he ask someone to sacrifice themselves? No. If Harry were ask to allow someone to be sacrificed for a substantial 'greater good', would he agree? Would he do it? As in - "Harry we have found a way to defeat Voldemort, but for this to happen, you have to send Ron to his certain death. Will you do it?" Without a doubt, the answer would be, 'No, we'll just have to find another way'. The alternative - "Harry we have found a way to defeat Voldemort, but for this to happen, you must choose to go to your certain irreversable death. Will you do it?" Without a doubt, the answer would be YES. Harry would never choose for someone else to be sacrificed. He might be force to go along with it, or he might resign himself to it happening, but to the extent that it was in his control, he would never choose it or allow it, and he would work with every fiber of his being to find some way to avoid it. Harry has always selflessly sacrificed himself for the greater good, and he has never asked for anyone to help him do it. He makes his decision for himself, if other choose to come along, he respects that choice, but it is a choice that is independant of his own. That fact that Harry gambled and WON shouldn't be held against him; it shouldn't deminish his offer to sacrifice himself. Just a thought. bboy_mn From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun May 25 07:41:19 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 03:41:19 EDT Subject: Malfoy's position and "manor" (was: Re: the term "professor" and titles in Message-ID: <1d2.a691a56.2c01cd9f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58613 Christian: >Well, the title "Sir" is, with exception of baronets, not >inheritable, and I do believe beheadings had ceased being common by >the time baronetcies were commonly handed out >Wizards might well have given such services to Crown and Country that >knighthoods or peerages may have been thought a suitable reward. Eloise: True. Nick is an Elizabethan and therefore likely a knight. We don't know Podmore's vintage. Christian: >Also, I do not believe we know that the Malfoys live in a manor, much >less that it is called Malfoy Manor - it is common enough in fanfics, >but as I recall, it comes from Harry in one of the books thinking >somewhat derisively about Draco probably living in some large manor, >with servants to both hands, and so on - and Harry did not assume a >name, as such. Eloise: This also is strictly true, I think. Oh dear! Is there really no good canon for "Malfoy Manor"? Darco tells Polyjuiced Harry and Ron about his father's cache of secret things under the floor in their *Manor* (capital letter implying *name*, I think). Mr Malfoy, OTOH, refers to his *manor* (no capital) when negotiating with Mr Borgin. What I did notice, which is interesting, is that in his snide remarks after the Malfoys have left, Borgin emphasises the words, "*Mister*" and "*manor*". They are, as I have tried to indicate, italicised. Is this telling us something about Malfoy's status? Is Borgin suggesting that there *is* some anomaly there, that perhaps the Malfoys have assumed a status to which they were not originally entitled? What is clear is that he pays him respect to his face, but not behind his back. I had originally read that as at least as much a comment on Borgin as on Malfoy, but now I'm wondering. JKR is recorded as saying that there are a lot of clues hidden in CoS. I wonder if this is one of them. Christian: >Incidentally, if the home of the Malfoys is actually >a proper manor (a property which holds certain feudal rights), and >has been in the possession of the Malfoy-family for the duration of >the existance of Malfoys, they may well hold that to be much more >honourable than any "new" title. Eloise: Oh, indeed. Although as you imply, it is a term which may also be applied to properties which do not have feudal rights few of which are upheld, now I think. At least by the holders of them. I'm beginning to think that he purchased it, though, that he *is* the wizarding equivalent of "new money", that his family have "bought" success through their involvement in the Dark Arts and that they are in this way also an antithesis to the Weasleys, whom others have characterised as impoverished gentry. ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 25 07:56:04 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 07:56:04 -0000 Subject: My weekly catch-up post: scroll through it for topics/names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58614 "Jennye" wrote: << BTW, is there a typo in this quote? It says he is the *ancestor* of Salazar Slytherin. Wouldn't he be the descendant? >> This is a topic that has been MUCH discussed. If it's true that Voldemort is "the last ancestor" of Salazar Slytherin, that suggests that Voldemort travels back in time to become SS's ancestor. However, saying "ancestor" for "descendent" is a common error in Muggle USA. I used the Goat Pad http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ to find the JKR interview http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm in which JKR was asked that question: Q: Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin? JKR: Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!) Some Brits on this list have explained that "deliberate error" is Brit-speak for "big huge howlingly obvious error that I can't believe I was ever stupid enough to make". By the way, another question is that interview is relevant to another topic recently discussed on list: Q: Will you ever include more illustrations? JKR: I don't like too many illustrations in novels; I prefer to use my imagination about what people look like. So the answer is, probably not. It seems to me that her reason for not liking illustrations also applies to detailed descriptions of what characters look like. Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Would seem to imply that the complete blood lines of many old wizarding families are hanging by a thread. >> I believe that is due to a couple of factors. First, that wizarding couples have few children. I've argued that they *could* have three or four children despite raising each of them as an only child (cf. Steve bboy_mn's post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/58162 ), but I suspect that most wizarding couples have only one or two children. They feel like they have LOTS of time, so they postpone child-bearing until they're financially settled and no longer want to spend all their time partying or establishing their careers, and they're so accustomed to a physically comfortable life (achieved by use of magic) that they are turned off by the noise and dirtiness and burden of raising children, and they have magical contraception that is 100% reliable if used ... *waves at Patricia Bullington-McGuire's excellent post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/58136 * Second, it seems likely to me that Slytherin heirs would have a tendency to murder each other, siblings fighting for the inheritance, children in a hurry to inherit from their parents, parents who find their children unsatisfactory... Altho' I would prefer a Potterverse in which TMR was NOT the last descendent of Salazar Slytherin, as I like to imagine the Potterverse with MANY people bragging that their families are descended from Salazar Slytherin, including the Malfoys and the Snapes. *waves at Linda KidAtHeart's post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/58256 * Third, surnames travelling through the male line: while TMR proclaimed himself the last descendent of Salazar Slytherin through any line, male or female, I think it is very possible that Dumbledore's statement: "Your Dementor has just destroyed the last remaining member of a pure-blood family as old as any" applied only to people with the surname Crouch, so Barty Sr could have been survived by a sister who had taken a husband's surname. Darrin wrote: << me thinking about who was in which house when they went to Hogwarts. (snip) Trelawney - Make her a Ravenclaw,>> I feel sure that Trelawney was a Slythie. I'm not sure whether her goal is that she wants to be esteemed as a Divinator or she wants to keep that job as Divination Professor, but she doesn't like little things like truthfulness, kindness, or personal dignity keeps her from what she does to meet that goal. I like to believe that Hooch was a Hufflepuff. Of course, I also like to believe that her name is Hieronyma Horacia Hooch, and there's no canon for that, either. bowlwoman replied: << Well, there are lots of wizards/witches mentioned as minor characters, but I'm sure they would fall into the "not enough known" category (Rita Skeeter, Amos Diggory, Ludo Bagman, Mad-Eye Moody and the Longbottoms, etc) >> Rita Skeeter is another one (like Lockhart) whom I'm convinced was a Slythie. They get income, fame, admiration (from middle-aged ladies, to Lockhart) and power (by threatening to write articles against people, to Skeeter) from their writing, and (again) don't little things like truthfulness or kindness interfere. I believe that Amos Diggory was a 'Puff. I base that more on my idea that Cedric was in Hufflepuff by family tradition than by examples of Amos being loyal to his son (by singing his praises) and his friend (arranging to protect Mad-Eye from punishment for the dustbin incident). I believe that the Longbottoms were Gryffies. Again, no good reason except family tradition. I imagine that Auror is a Gryffie line of work, but I can't use that as a reason because I am almost convinced by Barb's suggestion that Mad-Eye Moody was a Slythie ... set a Slyth to catch a Slyth. As for Ludo Bagman, it makes a difference whether he's just an idiot who happens to be good at Quidditch or he's a Death Eater or what. Valky wrote: << By the way I always pictured Godric gryffindor with Red Hair. It was just the image his name conjured up. How many of us can honestly say that we didn't hmmm? >> I always pictured Godric Gryffindor with black hair, but that may be fanfic contamination. I picture Salazar Slytherin with black hair also, and a resemblance to Snape, not Draco, and Rowena with red and Helga with blonde. While I'm babbling, these are the ages I picture them as being at the time of the Founding: Godric and Helga are middle-aged i.e. over 100. Rowena is very young, 20 to 25. Salazar is *centuries* old: he made or stole a Philosopher's Stone, depending on how spiritually advanced the maker has to be in the Potterverse. danielle dassero wrote: << Where does it say that Mcgonagall is the only Animagi. Hermione says there is only 7 registered ones. Mcgonagall being one of them, who is the other 6?? >> In the fanfic that I wrote, 2 of the other 6 are the Prewetts, who were mentioned by Hagrid as people killed by Voldemort: " he'd killed some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age -- the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts" In my version of the Potterverse, they were Hufflepuffs, so they followed the rules and registered. Btw, I assume that Prewett is pronounced "Pruitt", but I keep seeing a pre-wet (before wet) pun in it. Innermurk wrote: << If so, I wonder if Flitwick is part House Elf instead of part Goblin like some have speculated. >> IF Flitwick is half-House Elf OR half-Goblin, is employing him at Hogwarts and making him Head of Ravenclaw House another example of Dumbledore making room for society's rejects? "tristhe Andromeda" wrote of Lucius Malfoy's name: << Lucius--(adj) pleasing, seductive, luxurious; obscenely so. (snip) from dictionary.com: lus.cious (adj) loo-shus >> I totally agree about "Malfoy" meaning "bad faith", and am fascinated by the info about the word "luscious", but Lucius is not named "luscious" (despite the number of Jason Isaacs fans who call him that). The name "Lucius" refers to Light, and JKR probably intended to remind us of Lucifer (which means "light bearer" because it was a title of the Morning Star). Annemehr wrote: << Does anyone else besides me think that Dobby would actually have been quite happy (as the kitchen elves are) to act like a "normal" house elf, except that his life with the Malfoys pushed him past his limits? >> Yes! Me! Except I am slightly troubled by Dobby's statement that during the VRoT, House Elves were treated like vermin, as Dobby still is. 1) Wouldn't being treated like vermin have made some other House Elves think subversive thoughts? 2) Surely half-way decent people (even Crouches) wouldn't treat their House Elves like vermin just because Voldemort had a lot of followers, 3) maybe it was only the Voldemort followers who treated their House Elves like vermin, and they stopped doing so when the MoM got free time to enforce (hypothetical) laws against cruelty to House Elves, and only Lucius kept it up because only Lucius is above the law. Finchen wrote: << I do not think you would find something about a vampire in any book about magical creatures except for it would be a part of an anthology about DADA. So one better trys out that section to find out anything about one and not a book used in CoMC. >> But I really do believe that (the hard-cover and non-abridged edition of) FABULOUS BEASTS *was* the DADA textbook the year Lupin taught -- it has all the creatures that PoA mentioned that they studied, including Werewolf at the End of the Book. Except it doesn't have Vampires (who are Beings not Beasts) so I don't know how Lupin assigned a Vampire essay. As for why they bought it for first year, maybe Snape was right (despite his nastiness) that they were a bunch of third-years doing work from the first-year curriculum, because neither Quirrell nor Lockhart had Taught the first-year curriculum. Linda wrwote: << would an ISP for wizards be called WOL? >> Especially because Wol is the name of the Owl in Winnie-the-Pooh. Vivamus wrote: << Has anyone noticed that there are 24 hours missing from the time Hagrid picked up Harry and the time he delivered him to the Dursleys'? >> Here is a FAQ about it: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/timeline_potters2.html#Hagrid Eric Oppen wrote: << Hogwarts is different is that it ignores, as much as possible, the British class system. >> It always seemed to me that JKR put Justin Finch-Fletchley (cliche of upper-class character) in Hufflepuff and the Creevey brothers (whose father is a milkman, a working-class job) in Gryffindor to emphasize that the wizarding folk do not care a bit about the Muggle class system. Because they have their own class system, not because they're so enlightened and liberal. But she blurred that message by using the class traits that Muggle readers would recognize when she depicted class in the wizarding world: Malfoys as upper class and Stan Shunpike as lower-class. Anita Saithe wrote: << the King of Eagles, Garuda that he mentions, is the vehicle of Vishnu, the protector God. The Ravenclaw symbol is the Eagle (Padma's house). >> I thought Garuda was the vehicle of Indra, sky/storm god called King of the Gods, but not as high a god as the Three (called Trimurti?). Shiva's vehicle is Nandi the bull, but I can't remember whom I was told was Vishnu's vehicle. << Padma: This is Sanskrit for 'lotus', another character named after a flower. A huge lotus is what Brahma, the Creator rests on. >> I think of Padma as a Vishnaiva name, because as Vishnu sleeps on the coils of the cosmic serpent (is that his vehicle?) with his feet resting in the lap of his wife Lakshmi goddesss of wealth and beauty (he is the Preserver, she is goddess of some things that people are eager to preserve), there is a Lotus growing out of his navel. That Lotus, sometimes personified as a goddess Padma, is the entire physical world, the illusory material world that we experience, also called Maya ('illusion', a related word to 'magic') and Lila ('play'). So sometimes it is said that Padma, Maya, and Lila are junior wives of Vishnu and sometimes that they are additional aspects of Lakshmi. It originally struck me as strange that twin sisters had one a Vishnaiva name and the other a Shiva-ist (what is that called?) name, but listie Madhuri567 commented that that is not unusual, in her own Vishnaiva family, one of her siblings has a Shivite name. << the Gujrathi community, from the state of Gujrath. A popular last name found in this community is 'Patel'. These people are primarily businessmen by profession and very good ones too. They also form a large part of the country's immigrants and it's become quite common to find them in the US and UK. I won't be surprised if any of you know more than one Patel. (snip) Patil is a surname found commonly in the 'Marathi' community, from the state of Maharashtra, that's where I come from, many of my friends are Patils! >> I hesitate to disagree with someone who lives in the relevant place, but I was under the impression that here in USA, Patel and Patil are interchangeable spellings of the same name. Last year I heard a news story about 90% of motels and small hotels in USA are owned by Gujrathi immigrants named Patil and Patel. << I wonder if the Patil sisters too come from an old wizarding family and may play a larger role in the future. I mean, of all the Indian last names - wonder why she picked Patil? >> I kind of assumed that JKR just picked a South Asian surname that she'd encountered from someone she'd met, and then picked Indian first names that alliterated with it. Some listie was arguing that many people named Patil or Patel are Muslims, and I said Muslims wouldn't name their daughter after a Hindu goddess, and the other person said JKR might not even know that those names are Hindu, only that they're names of people she's met from India. Anita again: << What do you mean everything about Neville screams working class?>> I didn't know it myself, but IIRC a listie said that surnames like Longbottom are characteristic of North-eastern England, and in that area, Neville and Algernon (the uncle who gave him the toad) used to be very common names in the working class. Joe S wrote: << Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to the exact ages of Arthur and Molly Weasly? I haven't been able to find reference to their age anywhere in canon or on reference sites. I'm thinking mid forties to early fifties, judging merely by appearences, but then that could be off, as wizards seem to age quite gracefully and live longer then the average human. >> I believe that they're 70-ish, a little older than McGonagall (who was stated by JKR to be 'a spritely 70' and drawn by JKR looking 30-ish), but were at Hogwarts with McGonagall and Riddle. I haven't decided whether it would more dramatic if Arthur missed out on being Head Boy because Riddle got the job, or if Arthur was Head Boy (by being a different year than Riddle) but has such a dreary job history as an adult. Huggs!Becky wrote of Lockhart's claim of Homorphus Charm: << The spell's effects only work at that time. Even then, since they know when he's going to transform, somebody like Dumbledore I'm sure wouldn't find it too much trouble to cast it on him so that he could remain human and continue to function. It seems to me if there is a magickal cure for warewolves, be it temporary or permenent beyond the partial cure of the potion, it would have been used. >> It seems to me that the Homorphus Charm only turns him back into human form for 30 seconds. That's long enough for the villagers to recognise one of their neighbors, so in the future they can deal with him. Ideally, they would deal with him by chaining him up securely every month just before Full Moon, but I sadly expect that they dealt with him by killing him when he was in human form in mid-month, probably when he was asleep so he was even less able to defend himself. Anyway, not even Dumbledore can reasonably commit to cast a spell on Lupin every 30 seconds all night, possibly all day and night. Another theory is that the Homorphus Charm has terrible side-effects, such as that it burns out the victim's brain, leaving him in a coma for life, or at least profoundly brain-damaged and mentally disabled. No one who cares about Lupin would wish that on him. Ali wrote: << In Britain there is no equivalent of a successful completion of studies at school. We move up a year whether we have been outstandingly successful or can't read or write (usually). >> Remember what Hermione and Ron's conversation about the end-of-year exams in PS/SS? << "Hermione, the exams are ages away." "Ten weeks," Hermione snapped. "That's not ages, that's like a second to Nicolas Flamel." "But we're not six hundred years old," Ron reminded her. "Anyway, what are you studying for, you already know it all." "What am I studying for? Are you crazy? You realize we need to pass these exams to get into the second year? They're very important, I should have started studying a month ago, I don't know what's gotten into me...." >> "You realize we need to pass these exams to get into the second year?" I've always imagined that Hermione didn't really say that, because I cannot believe that her self-doubt is so extreme that she can even imagine that she might not pass the end of year exams (after getting A+ 100% on her homework all year!). However, it suggests that Hogwarts doesn't have the move-up-regardless method you mentioned. Backed up by this other quote: "They had hoped that Goyle, who was almost as stupid as he was mean, might be thrown out, but he had passed, too." Aaah. All caught up, and it's only 12:55 in the morning. From distractedone at comcast.net Sun May 25 09:34:23 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 05:34:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OOP: Possible major spoiler: I found another "cover picture". caution Message-ID: <002101c322a0$d38004c0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58615 ----- Original Message ----- From: lumos28 > This is probably old news or even completely false info but I haven't > seen it being discussed anywhere on this list. > Today, there was a news item in an Indian newspaper about how Amazon > is swamped with preorders for book 5. > And my eyes popped out when I saw the accompanying picture. > It shows the phoenix rising out of flames..and well..3 people in shadow on a flying > carpet...ok I won't say anything else, go look at the picture! > Here's the link: > http://cafe.cgocable.ca/modufres/aaa2002/Nouveau%20liens/Harry%20Potter%205%20800%20mod.jpg Each country uses thier own artist to do the artwork for the books. The Indian artist probably just added his/her own little interpretations to the British version of the cover. I doubt the flying carpet has any signifigance though. In GoF ch 7 pg 91 Mr. Crouch says "oh and I've been wanting a word with you too, Aurthur," his sharp eyes falling upon Mr. Weasley. "Ali Bashir's on the warpath. He wants a word with you about your embargo on flying carpets." Mr. Weasley heaved a deep sigh "I've sent him an owl about that just last week. If I've told him once I've told him a hundred times: Carpets are defined as a Muggle Artifact by the Registry of Proscribed Charmable Objects, but will he listen?" > In the picture that appeared in the paper, they have made it out to > be a proper Bloomsbury cover with > writing at the bottom that says "Double Smarties Award Winning > Author" which is not the case here. Yes they are talking about J.K. Rowlings winning the award twice not the book so I think that you misinterpreted the meaning of this statement. Merlin. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sun May 25 12:39:25 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 12:39:25 -0000 Subject: Squibs, Wizards, Witches and Warlocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jhlupin" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "indyattic" > wrote: > > I would like to revisit the theory that the wizarding world rejects > > the sqibs. I'm not convinced of it, and am wondering if anybody > else > > thinks that perhaps Madam Rosmerta might be a squib? jhlupin replied: > Hogsmeade is the only fully wizarding community in Great > Britain, as HG points out to the gang in PoA. It is completely > muggle-free. I think this implies it would be squib free as well. It > would be hard to make the claim of a completely wizarding > community if one of it's more prominent citizens and business > persons was not a wizard. Linda: I really don't have any idea about Madam Rosmerta one way or the other but I don't think this explanation disprooves that she is a squib. I don't see why Hogsmead couldn't be called an all wizarding settlement even if squibs were living there. Actually, it was founded as an all wizard settlement originally but we have no canon prooving that this is still the case. We only have Hermione telling us that she *has heard* that this is true. Her information could be wrong, old, or based on the intention behind the finding of the town and not its currant population. IMO, the idea behind Hogsmead, both as a plot device and a place that is real to the WW, is to establish a place, other than Hogwarts or private homes, where magic people, beings, and beasts don't have to hide what they are. A squib would already have knowledge of the WW and therefore would not compromise that intent. Just my two knuts. -Linda From ivanova at idcnet.com Sun May 25 13:31:00 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 08:31:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My weekly catch-up post: scroll through it for topics/names References: Message-ID: <001101c322c1$e2258c90$28ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58617 > Eric Oppen wrote: > > << Hogwarts is different is that it ignores, as much as possible, the > British class system. >> > Catlady wrote: > It always seemed to me that JKR put Justin Finch-Fletchley (cliche > of upper-class character) in Hufflepuff and the Creevey brothers > (whose father is a milkman, a working-class job) in Gryffindor to > emphasize that the wizarding folk do not care a bit about the Muggle > class system. Because they have their own class system, not because > they're so enlightened and liberal. But she blurred that message by > using the class traits that Muggle readers would recognize when she > depicted class in the wizarding world: Malfoys as upper class and > Stan Shunpike as lower-class. It's not that the WW doesn't care about class structure; it' that they have their own that is separate from the Muggle world. In the Muggle world, the Creeveys are in the working class and the Finch-Fletchleys appear to be upper-class, but in the WW they are the same thing: Muggles. So Colin and Justin are considered equals: Muggle-borns who have yet to make their own way and establish themselves (and their future lines) in the WW. The Malfoys, on the other hand, have been in the WW for centuries and have established themselves, which is why they are upper-class in the WW. We don't know anything about the Shunpike family, but we do know that Stan has taken a job as a conductor on the Knight Bus, which is a lower class job in the WW. The equivalent of this would be if Draco and Ron had went to school in the Muggle world. No one in the Muggle world would care that the Malfoy family is esteemed in the WW or that the Weasleys are poor. They would both be boys who have yet to make their own way in the world and who need to establish themselves. But yet both would need to learn the Muggle class structure set-up so they would know how they want to fit into it when they grow up. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From editor at texas.net Sun May 25 13:54:50 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 08:54:50 -0500 Subject: [Snapefans] The Old Snape Loves Lily Theory References: Message-ID: <002f01c322c5$3ef2b120$bd04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58618 This is a response to Koinonia on Snapefans; double-posted because she's actually responding on Snapefans to a post I made on HP4GU. There's enough Snape fans on the main list, though, and enough recent Snape discussion, that I thought to respond in both venues. Koinonia: > I realize this > might be a strange post as I'm not posting word for word what Amanda > said but I don't think I am allowed to do that. ?? Yahoo policy? Because I don't care, I belong to both groups. > Amanda's Take on Snape: was summarized pretty much accurately. > (1)Would Snape still love Lily? Why? They never had a relationship. > They were in their early teens. Snape is now in his 30's. Lily is > dead. She has been dead for many, many years. After all these years > Snape couldn't get a life? Will he ever? What is he living for? Has > he never even looked at another woman? Well, for one, I have known a couple of people who had one great love. For whatever reason, they were now alone. They chose to not pursue another. It is a current American cultural thing, I think, to cast "having a life" in terms of having romantic/sexual relationships. But it *is* possible to have a completely full life without that. Snape *has* a life. He is a very involved administrator of Hogwarts. From the tangential references we have seen, he seems to have a good working relationship with the other teachers (staffroom scene; McGongall's references to what sound, like me, to Snape digging her about Quidditch, which to me says they have a friendly professional rivalry). He enjoys the solid trust and respect of a man he, himself, solidly respects (Dumbledore). And he knows he has a significant part to play in upcoming Voldemort-troubles. Where's a lack of life? > (2)Did Snape ask Voldemort to spare any other person? How about > James? Some believe Snape is the spy who told Dumbledore that > Voldemort was after the Potters. Is Snape the kind of person who > would stand by and let James and Harry be killed but beg for the life > of Lily? Probably. From my reading of his character, he is also practical. He had a cover to maintain, and he also probably knew that there was *zero* chance that Voldemort would spare James, but a possibility that he'd spare Lily. Spies have to make the best of the situations they have. > What about the other people Voldemort has killed? Did that > ever bother Snape? We don't know. I'm betting Snape's killed a fair few in his DE time, as well. We have not seen much introversion from Snape, nor would the Harry-filter put us in a very good position to see it accurately, so this, we have no idea about. > Would Dumbledore trust a man who only seemed to > care if Lily lived? See above. Snape may have had no choice, or have known that there was no hope. And Dumbledore trusts a man who would have given Sirius to the dementors. > Would the wise Dumbledore hire such a man to be > around young kids? Is that the kind of man you would stand up for and > put on your 'team'? I have noted that Dumbledore seems to allow life situations--unfairness, etc.--to occur and be learning experiences at Hogwarts, as well as the curriculum. This is not something that American schools allow (or something they try to weed out). Personally, I think that letting children grow up with the expectation that things are supposed to be fair and they're guaranteed a level playing field is a massive disservice to them. So Dumbledore may indeed have known Snape's failings and hired him anyway. These children will have to deal with unreasonable people in the future; may as well start now, while they're children. > That doesn't make Snape very trustworthy to me. > Would not Dumbledore think Snape doesn't seem to be able to function > in the real world (still loving Lily)? I don't follow this one. Why would still loving Lily make him unable to function in any way? > (3)Why hire Snape in the first place? Why trust him? Why does he > really trust Snape? > > Perhaps Snape had been in love and was loved in return. That person > could have been killed by Voldemort and perhaps that is why V thinks > Snape might have left him forever. Or maybe V believes that way due > to Snape's actions in COS. This is part of my thought, actually; Voldemort knows Snape cared about Lily. But I don't think that's why he thinks Snape left him forever. I think Snape has a very strict internal code, which has nothing to do with ethics or law and everything to do with his own personal ideas and ideals. I think breaking your word is not something that is forgiven. I further think that Snape judges *others* according to this code as well. And I think Voldemort knows this, and transgressed Snape's code somehow, and believes therefore that Snape is gone forever. Snape's task, in my mind, is to go back to Voldemort and make V believe that Snape has abandoned or rethought his position, which may not be easy, given the rigidity of Snape's character. As for the Lily connection, it may have been that Voldemort told Snape he'd spare Lily, then didn't. He lied to someone who trusted him. This may have been what made him "leave forever." Or maybe just the knowledge that Snape spied on him. We don't know if Voldemort knows this or not. > Perhaps Snape had been in love and this person is still living. DE? > If Snape is going back to the DE's could this not be the temptation > that worries Dumbledore? It could be. But I think, given the particular mention of "glittering eyes," that it is the temptation of old ways and power that will tempt Snape. Do you remember/did you see Porphyria's analysis of when the term "glittering" or "glinting" was used for eyes (mostly Snape's), and what was happening at each time? [was an HP4GU post]Snape is always doing something cruel or aggressive. Always. In that light, I find it ominous that Snape's eyes were glittering as he left to begin his task. > There are just so many posibilites. I just don't want to see Snape as > a person who just can't get over a woman he never had. I would like > him to be much stronger than that. Interesting. I see that *as* strength, that he can be faithful to a love given over time and through life. I don't see it as failing to "get over," I see it as a strong enough character to be true. As I said above, American culture tends to put romantic/sexual concerns first on the list. Not everyone does that, it's not the "normal" way to look at things, it's simply one way. Plenty of people devote their lives to one other person, or one faith, or one ideal, which leaves no room for anything else in their lives. I don't see anything weak about it at all. > But anything is possible in these > books and no telling what will happen. Oh, truer words. ~Amanda From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 25 15:02:25 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 25 May 2003 15:02:25 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1053874945.26.97221.m5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58619 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, May 25, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 25 15:02:57 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 25 May 2003 15:02:57 -0000 Subject: File - ADMIN OoP Spoilers.txt Message-ID: <1053874977.28076270.76868.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58620 Greetings from Hexquarters! As we all count down the days until the release of OoP, the Administration Team has been huddled at Hexquarters, all of the entrances securely bolted and towels stuffed under the cracks beneath the doors. Nothing, we vowed, must disturb our careful deliberations and detailed preparations for This Blessed Event. Finally, the Admin Team have something to show for their hard work. We have decided how we will handle the issue of spoilers for the OoP release. Our view is that anyone who comes to a HP discussion group around the release of OoP really should expect to encounter spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. For that reason, we have decided *not* to require list members to use spoiler space at all. Instead, we are introducing a new prefix for subject headers, which will give members fair warning that the post contains OoP spoilers. Beginning today, we would like members to use the "OOP" prefix for any post to any of our lists that contains spoilers for OoP. Subject headers should not, of course, contain spoilers themselves -- "OOP: Sirius Dies At Azkaban!" rather defeats the point of the OoP prefix. For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, Sirius." Harry and Sirius are so interconnected in previous books that this isn't a spoiler. "OOP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, *would* be a spoiler, as we don't know whether Lupin is in Book 5. "OOP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). Remember that a subject header which has *both* a chapter number and a subject is in itself a spoiler. 'OOP: Chapter 32 - Sirius' tells readers that Sirius turns up in Chapter 32. For a reader only on Chapter 7, where Harry is worried about his godfather, that's a spoiler. If you want to discuss a particular chapter, use chapter numbers *only*. 'OOP: Chapter 32' is fine. Please begin using the new "OOP" prefix on all of our lists -- especially the main list and OT-Chatter -- beginning today. And remember, if you have any comments about any OoP release issues, holler at us at: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com "The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." [PS/SS Chapter 17] Be like Dumbledore. Tell people as little as possible. ;-) Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun May 25 15:02:57 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 25 May 2003 15:02:57 -0000 Subject: File - Nimbus Fundraiser.txt Message-ID: <1053874977.28076549.76868.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58621 Hi all -- Over the last four years, HP4GU has been the best online source for in-depth, mature discussion of all things Potter. The list has burgeoned to 6,300 members, more than twelve sister and regional lists, and the finest collection of Fantastic Posts essays about HP that one can locate on the web. Regional meetings are no longer so regional. In New York City, Chicago, London, Germany and all over the world in fact, we have met, sometimes in handfuls, sometimes in large numbers. And now, this summer, Harry Potter fans take the next step. More than 400 fans will converge on Orlando, Florida, to create the single largest gathering yet, at the *first ever* symposium centered solely on Harry Potter. But you know all this - or you do if you've been around lately. What you might not know is that Nimbus - 2003 needs HP4GU's help. And HP4GU needs your help. This vitally important first year's symposium - and therefore future symposia - depends on your support. Many people have said things like, "Well, I can't afford Nimbus this year, so I'll wait for next year." We certainly understand if you can't attend this year. But, if you can't go this time, there's an easy way you can help ensure that there is a next time. When the Nimbus - 2003 team formed in June of 2002, they envisioned an event that would set the tone. They saw the groundwork for future events, perhaps even eventually large enough to rent our own castle in Scotland for a long week-end. If event after event can prove our sincerity and our integrity, then perhaps we will win the respect of WB, JKR's agents, and even JKR herself. We could position this chain of symposia to become the official convention for adults, and possibly even become the preferred symposium for pursuit of the books. But without fan support, none of that can happen. Corporate sponsorship, which the event's organizers believed would be a natural source of funding, has not materialized as anticipated. Even corporations with significant ties to HP merchandise have been uninterested. The Nimbus - 2003 team attributes this to changing relationships of licensees to WB, the struggle of an unhistoried, untested event, and of course the general economy and world situation. Despite their hope that they would be able to supplement registrations with corporate contributions and lift the burden from the fans, the team finds themselves in need of grassroots assistance. Since Nimbus is the event that HP4GU inspired, they have turned to us, as well as the corners of the fandom, for that help. That is why, in addition to lending its reputation and support to Nimbus - 2003, we at HP4GU would like to make that support financial and be an official Nimbus "Symposium Sponsor." Nimbus offers Symposium Sponsorhip at the level of $15,000 (USD). That sounds like a lot. But remember how we said that the list boasts over 6,000 members? That means that if only half of you are able to donate $5 apiece, HP4GU can realize its goal. If you can give more, please give more, because we know there are those among you who cannot give any, much as you might like to. This sponsorship would pay for: ** Internet cafe, so that attendees and presenters can connect with HP fans around the world who are unable to attend Nimbus - 2003. Cost includes computer rental and internet access costs. [$5,000] ** Coverage of honoraria, hotel, and airfare for the Special Guests, including: Judith Krug, Connie Neal, John Granger, Philip Nel, and Roger Highfield [$3,500] ** Coverage of the Judith Krug Keynote Luncheon (Judith Krug is the Director of the Office of Intellectual Freedom for the American Library Association and will speak on the subject of censorship and book banning, with reference to Harry Potter in particular) [$3,000] ** The Farewell Breakfast on Sunday [$2,500] ** Welcoming Feast and Meet-and-Greet on Thursday night [$1,000] Moreover, for those of you who are U.S. taxpayers, your donation to the HP4GU Nimbus - 2003 sponsorship may be tax-deductible. HP Education Fanon, Inc., the company created to oversee these periodic recurring symposia, has been granted tax-exempt 501(c)3 status as an educational organization. That means your contribution carries the same advantages to you as a donation to your local charity of choice. We hope you will be part of the only event to grow out of the excellent, deep, shocking, and hilarious conversations you've enjoyed online. Be part of the vision shared by list member, elf, geist, and moderator alike. Even if you can't attend - even if you will - you have a chance to help make Harry Potter history. With your help, we can continue to prove that HP4GU is one of the best HP communities around - on the Web, or in person. With your help, that reputation will only be heightened, through the contact with and exchange between fans and academics and professionals who are equally enamoured of the books and all they represent. Plus, you'll be helping to create an amazing reality which for some will reinforce - or *create* - longstanding friendships and new communities. To make a donation, simply send funds via paypal to: hpfgu-donate at hp2003.org Or, if you prefer, you may send your donation (whether in US funds or other currency) to: Harry Potter Symposium - 2003 PO Box 18769 Rochester, NY 14618-0769 We hope that whether you can join us or not, you will consider making a contribution to show your support - not just for this year's event, but to ensure the future of any other similar conferences brought to you on behalf of *your* email list: HPforGrownups. Yours in anticipation of Nimbus - 2003, The HP4GU Moderators P.S. Don't forget, only $5 from you will do the trick! Follow this link (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/nimbus-2003) to contribute to a Nimbus - 2003 Symposium Sponsorship today! From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sun May 25 15:07:47 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 15:07:47 -0000 Subject: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's In-Reply-To: <001401c32270$c451e9d0$62ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Odile: > And while I'm at it, why is Voldemort a "Lord," yet > the seemingly aristocratic Malfoy is "Mister"? Or is > that movie contamination as well? > > Eloise: > I think someone else has already pointed out that Voldemort > *assumed* the title "Lord" for himself. > Kelly: > "Dark Lord." Is it just me, or are the majority of the > people who use this term either DE's or associated with them > somehow (like Dobby)? Valkys two knuts: I have done a little reckoning about this subject, and I'm beginning to see a possible scenario that fits. Assuming LV's babyhood coincides with the date 1927, he would be some 60 something years old at the time Harry began Hogwarts. Eleven years previous he would be 50 something. Hence, a consideration of the period of time between his graduation from school and his Dark reign. Canon says that this was {55-11=43 43- 18=25} 25 years. "We have had precious little to celebrate these eleven years.." Dumbledore Ch1 PS. So in approx 25 years we have a seemingly unassuming Tom/Voldemort existing in the wizard world and not bearing a dark reign of terror. I suspect that during this time he may have laid a legitimate claim to a Lordship, and that is why DD uses the term in his address. We know he fashioned the name Lord Voldemort in his youth. That much is canon and cannot be denied. I am not denying it merely suggesting he may have set about making it a legitimate title in his young adulthood. He had 26 years to do it. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sun May 25 15:41:49 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 15:41:49 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <000c01c3226f$3428a8e0$62ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Darrin wrote: > Ditto for the whole Quest for the Stone in PS/SS. Harry was a pariah > at school, thanks to helping lose so many points for Gryffindor. He > could have played it safe, kept his head down, etc... > He was willing to put his social standing andthe glory of > Gryffindor - you could make a case that wasn't his to give up, > though -- to try and get the Stone. Kelly: > my point is that Harry did not go down there thinking > he was going to sacrifice only points and social standing, but his life. Valky (me): Straying a little, but still considering the same question. Has anyone else noticed that Harry has a lot to learn about sacrifice. Our hero is well reputed for his selfless sacrifices, and justifiably. I agree with Kelly that in the Philosophers Stone story Harry bravely chose fight or die offering up what could possibly be his life for a greater good. He, also, did that out of curiosity about his nemesis LV, but thats steals little from his bravery. It does however make a strong point about the lesson he inevitably faces in his life. To choose differently to Tom Riddle and become, what he desires to be. Looking at Harry and his deep desire to be in the Wizard World, accepted and loved. It would seem that the child has much to learn, risking his contact point with the one home and family he loves for a butterbeer. Ultimately his curiosity seems to be leading him to the same awful placed Tom Riddle visited all those years before. An irresistable urge to sacrifice his one deepest desire for love, for a gamble on the odds that he will gain the ultimate reward. A quote from JK I can't recall exactly makes a statement to the tune of Harry will be finding out the importance of making the right choice over the easy one. Harry frequently chooses right over easy, was what I said, what could the boy have to learn about this? After scanning the pages of the books a zillionth time this is what I have come up with. Harry is in real danger of making the one same wrong choice as Voldemort. He is too willing to sacrifice all that means the most to him. From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Sun May 25 13:34:55 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:34:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > If Harry were ask to allow someone to be sacrificed for a substantial > 'greater good', would he agree? Would he do it? > > As in - "Harry we have found a way to defeat Voldemort, but for this > to happen, you have to send Ron to his certain death. Will you do it?" > > Without a doubt, the answer would be, 'No, we'll just have to find > another way'. > > The alternative - "Harry we have found a way to defeat Voldemort, but > for this to happen, you must choose to go to your certain irreversable > death. Will you do it?" > > Without a doubt, the answer would be YES. > > Harry would never choose for someone else to be sacrificed. He might > be force to go along with it, or he might resign himself to it > happening, but to the extent that it was in his control, he would > never choose it or allow it, and he would work with every fiber of his > being to find some way to avoid it. MmeMalkin: I agree. Sending someone else to their death is a command decision. (A Stat Trek NG episode comes to mind, where Deanna Troi was in officer training and was tested on her ability to send a crewmate on a suicide assignment.) While Harry is a natural leader, he doesn't assume any command authority, any right to order the others to do anything. As you said, he'd fight having to do it. ~Diane From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun May 25 16:12:55 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 16:12:55 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: List will be closed to posting for 45 hours from 23:59 June 20th Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58626 Hello HPfGU Members! It's an exciting time here on the List as we wait with bated breath for the arrival of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix! While we're all patiently (!) waiting for the Big Day, your Friendly Administration Team has been running around making preparations for the blessed event. After many long talks with and input from many of you, we have decided to close the Main List to posting for 45 hours from the moment of first release, midnight Friday night (20th June) British Summer Time. This means that, while you'll be able to read all the fantastic posts in the archives, you will not be able to post your own messages until the closing time has passed. The list will re-open to posting at 9pm on Sunday 22nd June, British Summer Time. That's 4pm on the East Coast of North America, and 1 pm on the Pacific Coast. This will allow everyone a chance to read and reflect before posting about OoP and sharing messages with the usual high standard of thoughts and opinions. But fear not, friends! There are ways to share all your observations, be they about Draco's robes or the Dursleys' breakfast menu! OTC, otherwise known as Off-Topic Chatter, will not be affected by the Main List closure, so you are free to post your comments there. Just remember that not all readers of OTC will be in the happy position of having a copy of OoP, so be sure to use the proper spoiler prefix (OoP:) and avoid giving away details in your headers. If you're not already a member of OTC, go to www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter and join the friendly gang that hangs out there. Remember, OTC is one of our sister lists, so the same rules of behaviour apply there as apply on the Main List. Once the Main List is reopened to posting (hurray!) we suggest you repost any particularly brilliant canon observations there. Otherwise we could all go cross-eyed as we try to read canon discussions on both lists Thank you all for reading this, and Happy Harry Day to you on June 21st! The HPfGU Administration Team From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 25 17:35:29 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:35:29 -0000 Subject: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > So in approx 25 years we have a seemingly unassuming Tom/Voldemort > existing in the wizard world and not bearing a dark reign of > terror. I suspect that during this time he may have laid a > legitimate claim to a Lordship, and that is why DD uses the term > in his address. > > We know he fashioned the name Lord Voldemort in his youth. That > much is canon and cannot be denied. I am not denying it merely > suggesting he may have set about making it a legitimate title in > his young adulthood. He had 26 years to do it. I have trouble believing that TMR would seek to be ennobled by the Queen of England, as to him she is just another worthless Muggle. For him, a peerage conferred upon him by a Muggle would seem about as 'legitimate' as a Ph.D. conferred by a chimpanzee in a zoo would seem to us. For him, his title "Lord" is made legitimate by the power he wields over wizarding society. I think TMR spent those years studying Dark Arts and other magic, seeking out ancient libraries of spell books of forgotten spells, and old wizards rumored to have discovered/invented spells to defeat death, experimenting with spells he had himself invented, allegedly all in pursuit of Immortality, but I think also in pursuit of Power. But I suppose it is possible that he spent part of that time in search of Wealth (to use as a means to power). Perhaps he reckoned that the best route to wealth for a wizard of his intelligence, charm, and magic is in the Muggle world (remember that Muggle money can be converted to wizarding money at Gringotts). I feel that he would be inclined to get his Muggle money by fraud, because of disrespecting Muggles too much to be willing to play by their rules. It would have worked; he would be a very successful con man even without ever using a bit of magic. >From over here, it looks as if Britain has a habit of first knighting and then ennobling its self-made billionaires as well as its famous actors and painters, but I don't know whether the businessmen have to buy their peerages. (Over here, the payments would be campaign contributions, but I've been given to understand that political campaigns are a lot less expensive over there.) I don't believe that TMR would trouble himself to buy a Muggle peerage, unless it was necessary to his 'cover' or some such. From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 25 17:58:09 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 18:58:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs, Wizards, Witches and Warlocks Message-ID: <20030525175809.22893.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58628 Linda wrote: > wrote: > > I would like to revisit the theory that the wizarding world rejects > > the sqibs. I'm not convinced of it, jhlupin replied: > Hogsmeade is the only fully wizarding community in Great > Britain, as HG points out to the gang in PoA. It is completely > muggle-free. I think this implies it would be squib free as well. Linda: I don't see why Hogsmead couldn't be called an all wizarding settlement even if squibs were living there. Actually, it was founded as an all wizard settlement originally but we have no canon prooving that this is still the case. IMO, the idea behind Hogsmead, both as a plot device and a place that is real to the WW, is to establish a place, other than Hogwarts or private homes, where magic people, beings, and beasts don't have to hide what they are. A squib would already have knowledge of the WW and therefore would not compromise that intent. Robert the old Your idea is reasonable Linda, but don't forget D.Alley where they can also be themselves. How about this; is aunt Petunia a squib? Were her and Lilly Potter's mum and dad WW's? It would go some way towards explaining her extreem anti wizard atitude. Has this been discussed before? Robert (the old) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... 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Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun May 25 18:21:13 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 18:21:13 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58629 "annemehr" wrote: Harry has not had the situation come up where he would have to knowingly sacrifice his life or powers. This is not under his control; it will either happen or not. He has had plenty of situations come up where he has had to risk his life, and those times he did it willingly. As it happened, he was not killed. He certainly did try to succeed in his undertakings while staying alive, but the outcome was not entirely in his hands -- despite his best efforts, he may still have died. Yes, there is some difference between *risking* your life and facing *certain* death, and the only time Harry did the latter, there was no sacrifice to make, just to stand up straight and die fighting like his father rather than cowering behind a headstone. Harry did realise he'd rather live at Hogwarts and face a dragon rather than go back to the Dursleys. And if Harry ever does face "certain death" to save the WW (or even just one person), then we can discuss some more! ==================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I have been following this thread for a while now, and I wanted to add my thoughts to it. Where I seen the first *MAIN* sacrafice was on page 294-297 (US): "now give me the stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." "Never!" Harry sprang toward the flame door, but Voldemort screamed "SEIZE HIM!" and the next second, Harry felt Quirrell's hand close on his wrist. At once, a needle-sharp pain seared across Harry's scare; his head felt as though it was about to split in two; he yelled, struggling with all his might, and to his surprise, Quirrell let go of him. He looked around to see where Quirrell had gone, and saw him hunched in pain, looking at his fingers-they were blistering before his eyes. "Seize him! SEIZE HIM!" shrieked Voldemort again, and Quirrell lunged, knocking Harry clean off his feet, landing on top of him, both hands around Harry's neck-Harry's scar was almost blinding him with pain, yet he could see Quirrell howling in agony. "Master, I cannot hold him-my hands-my hands!" "Then kill him, fool, and be done!" screeched Voldemort. Quirrell raised his hand to preforom a deadly curse, but Harry, by instinct, reached up and grabbed Quirrell's face- "AAAARGH" Quirrell rolled off him, his face blistering, too, and then Harry: Quirrell countn't touch his bare skin, not without terrible pain Harry jumped to his feet, caught Quirrell by the arm, and hung on as tight as he could. Quirrell screamed and try to throw Harry off- the pain in Harry's head was building-he couldn't see-he could only hear Quirrell's terrible shrieks and Voldemort's yells of, "KILL HIM! KILL HIM!" and other voices, maybe in Harry's own head, crying "Harry! Harry!" "But sir, the stone-" "I see you will not be distracted. Very well, the stone. Professor Quirrell did not manage to take it from you. I arraived in time to prevent that, althought you were doing very well on your own, I must say." "You got there? You got Hermiones's owl?" "We must have crossed in midair. No sooner had I reached London than it became clear to me that the place I should be was the one I had just left. I arrived just in time to pull Quirrell off you-" "It was you." "I feared I might be too late." "You nearly were, I couldn't have kept him off the stone much longer-" "Not the stone, boy, you- THE EFFORT INVOLVED NEARLY KILLED YOU. For one terrible moment there, I was afraid it had." Now, most people might not believe a "mass murderer" when they tell you, basicly "give me what I want, or i will kill you". But seeing as how Voldemort had already killed his parents, I am betting Harry did believe him. And instead of giving him what he wants, he tells him "NEVER". Seems like he has choose to die than hand over the stone, and to me that is the ultimate sacrafice, but I may be wrong. I do not think so, but I might. He further scarafices by holding onto Quirrell even though he feels "his head felt as though it was about to split in two." Plus, when he grabs Quirrell for the second time, " Harry's scar was almost blinding him with pain", he did not give up. He grabbed Quirrell for a third go round, still, "Harry jumped to his feet, caught Quirrell by the arm, and hung on as tight as he could. Quirrell screamed and try to throw Harry off-the pain in Harry's head was building-he couldn't see-he could only hear Quirrell's terrible shrieks and Voldemort's yells of, "KILL HIM! KILL HIM!" Fred Waldrop Who says, this sounds like a scrafice to me! From WFeuchter at msn.com Sun May 25 17:01:21 2003 From: WFeuchter at msn.com (hpoldfan) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:01:21 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58630 Valky wrote: > > Looking at Harry and his deep desire to be in the Wizard World, > accepted and loved. It would seem that the child has much to learn, risking his contact point with the one home and family he loves for a butterbeer. Ultimately his curiosity seems to be leading him to the same awful placed Tom Riddle visited all those years before. An > irresistable urge to sacrifice his one deepest desire for love, for a gamble on the odds that he will gain the ultimate reward. > > A quote from JK I can't recall exactly makes a statement to the tune of Harry will be finding out the importance of making the right > choice over the easy one. > > Harry frequently chooses right over easy, was what I said, what could the boy have to learn about this? After scanning the pages of the > books a zillionth time this is what I have come up with. > Harry is in real danger of making the one same wrong choice as > Voldemort. He is too willing to sacrifice all that means the most to him. >>> Harry is a boy! The whole purpose of childhood is to learn how to make the correct choices. Of course he is going to make mistakes, you do not learn if you don't make mistakes. But Harry is not dumb, he has a clear goal and it is not being accepted in the WW. His goal is to defeat LV, and avenge his parents death. Bill From rose_in_shadow at yahoo.com Sun May 25 18:28:15 2003 From: rose_in_shadow at yahoo.com (Moira Brennan) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mirror of Erised - Lily crying? Message-ID: <20030525182815.4165.qmail@web40812.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58631 In preparation for the release of OoP, I've begun to reread the series. In SS/PS, during the Mirror of Erised, Harry notes the following when he first sees his mother: "...her eyes are just like mine, Harry thought, edging a little closer to the glass. Bright green--exactly the same shape, but then he noticed that she was crying; smiling, but crying at the same time." (mass market ppb. 259) And nothing else is mentioned about this. Why is the Erised Lily crying? Is JKR trying to make us remember this for some reason? Dumbledore says that the mirror doesn't show truth but could it be, as what seems to be the case for wizard pictures, that the Mirror is showing Harry Lily crying because, naturally, she would miss her son? Or is it simply Harry's deepest desire to see that he is loved by his parents since he is obviously not loved by his relatives? ~Moira a newbie lurker who is greatly enjoying the discussions so far. ===== "Liber mihi opus est." (I need a book) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From yellows at aol.com Sun May 25 18:56:51 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:56:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's title (was: the term "professor" and titles in general) Message-ID: <03722CA9.22C6B716.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58632 In a message dated 5/25/2003 12:35:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, catlady at wicca.net writes: <> I both agree and disagree with this. For one, LV's prejudice against Muggle-born magical people, and his prejudice against Muggles in general, suggests to me that he would not be interested in obtaining a legitimate Muggle title, unless it was just to mock them. But I've noticed in the canon that there are times when Muggles and the Wizarding community communicate with one another. For instance, we know that the Prime Minister is aware of Witches and Wizards because he was told when Sirius Black escaped that a dangerous Wizard was on the loose. This tells me that, under some circumstances, Muggles and Witches and Wizards work together, which *may* mean that Muggle titles are also given to non-Muggles. Also, there are many parallels between the magical world and the Muggle world. The Ministry of Magic, for instance, is very similar to any Muggle form of government. Do we have any reason to believe, then, that Witches and Wizards don't have their own system of giving titles to their own people? Perhaps TMR *was* made a Lord within the Wizarding community, according to Wizarding standards. But, actually, I am of the opinion that LV just put the "Lord" at the beginning of his name to invoke more fear in people. Maybe it doesn't even mean Lord as in the noble title. Maybe he means Lord as in something other-worldly, like a god or a devil. :) Brief Chronicles, who is new and very happy to be here. :) From girl_about_town at lycos.de Sun May 25 19:17:41 2003 From: girl_about_town at lycos.de (donna_immaculata) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:17:41 -0000 Subject: Petunia - a Squib? (was: Re: Squibs, Wizards, Witches and Warlocks) In-Reply-To: <20030525175809.22893.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, robert haberfield wrote: > > > > > > I don't see why Hogsmead couldn't be called an all wizarding > settlement even if squibs were living there. Actually, it was > founded as an all wizard settlement originally but we have no canon > prooving that this is still the case. IMO, the idea behind Hogsmead, both > as a plot device and a place that is real to the WW, is to establish > a place, other than Hogwarts or private homes, where magic people, > beings, and beasts don't have to hide what they are. A squib would > already have knowledge of the WW and therefore would not compromise > that intent. > > > Robert the old > > Your idea is reasonable Linda, but don't forget D.Alley where they can also be themselves. > > How about this; is aunt Petunia a squib? Were her and Lilly Potter's mum and dad WW's? It would go some way towards explaining her extreem anti wizard atitude. Has this been discussed before? > > Robert (the old) Robert, I think I've come across a thread discussing this at some point but can't remember the result. However, in PS, when Harry meets Hagrid for the first time and learns about the whole wizard thing, Petunia admits that she has known all along and says that when the family learned about Lily's being a witch, it was "all Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" (PS, chap. The Keeper of Keys) For me, this implies that the parents were not witch and wizard, because it sounds a bit as though being a witch was something extraordinary. But I might be wrong. On the other hand, as they were obviously so very happy to have a witch in the family, could it be that the parents were of WW origins? Two Squibs who got married? A bit far-fetched, maybe. *g* Donna From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sun May 25 18:39:03 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:39:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Squibs, Wizards, Witches and Warlocks References: <20030525175809.22893.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ED10DC7.5060403@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58634 robert haberfield wrote: > > > > > Linda wrote: > > wrote: > > > I would like to revisit the theory that the wizarding world > rejects > > > the sqibs. I'm not convinced of it, > > jhlupin replied: > > > Hogsmeade is the only fully wizarding community in Great > > Britain, as HG points out to the gang in PoA. It is completely > > muggle-free. I think this implies it would be squib free as > well. > > > Linda: > > I don't see why Hogsmead couldn't be called an all wizarding > settlement even if squibs were living there. Actually, it was > founded as an all wizard settlement originally but we have no canon > prooving that this is still the case. IMO, the idea behind Hogsmead, both > as a plot device and a place that is real to the WW, is to establish > a place, other than Hogwarts or private homes, where magic people, > beings, and beasts don't have to hide what they are. A squib would > already have knowledge of the WW and therefore would not compromise > that intent. > > > Robert the old > > Your idea is reasonable Linda, but don't forget D.Alley where they can > also be themselves. > > How about this; is aunt Petunia a squib? Were her and Lilly Potter's mum > and dad WW's? It would go some way towards explaining her extreem anti > wizard atitude. Has this been discussed before? > > Robert (the old) > > Its my opinion that people are misunderstanding the term 'all-wizard' far as Hogsmeade goes. I believe this means that it is, in fact, a village where EVERYONE who lives there knows about the wizard world, NOT that it is populated by ONLY wizards. We know that other 'magical creatures' such as gnomes and others are seen in Hogsmeade. There are likely Squibs and even a few muggles who happen to be married into wizarding families there. I seriously doubt that the village bans anyone who isn't a wizard from even walking down the street there. Its not like the Malfoy's run the place or something. Wizard-Only may only mean that Hogsmeade is unknown to the general muggle population and is only known to those who are part of the Wizarding World. i.e. Wizards, magical creatures, squibs and muggles who have been accepted into the Wizarding World (married to wizards, parents of wizards or otherwise not a threat to the WW). Also there's the fact that a Squib works at the school, so I doubt that they ban Filch from going into town for a drink at the Three Broomsticks. Jazmyn From patricia at obscure.org Sun May 25 20:35:02 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 16:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's title (was: the term "professor" and titles in general) In-Reply-To: <03722CA9.22C6B716.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58635 On Sun, 25 May 2003 yellows at aol.com wrote: > But I've noticed in the canon that there are times when Muggles and the > Wizarding community communicate with one another. For instance, we know > that the Prime Minister is aware of Witches and Wizards because he was > told when Sirius Black escaped that a dangerous Wizard was on the loose. > This tells me that, under some circumstances, Muggles and Witches and > Wizards work together, which *may* mean that Muggle titles are also > given to non-Muggles. > > Also, there are many parallels between the magical world and the Muggle > world. The Ministry of Magic, for instance, is very similar to any > Muggle form of government. Do we have any reason to believe, then, that > Witches and Wizards don't have their own system of giving titles to > their own people? Perhaps TMR *was* made a Lord within the Wizarding > community, according to Wizarding standards. I don't doubt that the Muggle authorities might be willing to give peerages and such to magical people who have done something to earn them, just as they would to Muggles who have made great achievements. It's also possible that the magical world has its own titles, though we haven't seen any canon evidence of that so far. However, I highly doubt Lord Voldemort came by his "lordship" in either of these ways. In CoS, Tom Riddle tells Harry that he started using the name "Lord Voldemort", based on an anagram of his given name, while he was still a student at Hogwarts. It seems highly unlikely to me that a teenage student, no matter how brilliant, would have yet had an opportunity to earn such a title from either the Muggle or wizarding authorities. It seems much more likely that he just found an impressive sounding moniker in his given name and adopted that to boost his image and his own ego -- we *are* talking about a teenager here, after all. > But, actually, I am of the opinion that LV just put the "Lord" at the > beginning of his name to invoke more fear in people. Maybe it doesn't > even mean Lord as in the noble title. Maybe he means Lord as in > something other-worldly, like a god or a devil. I like the "other-worldly" aspect. I doubt LV would object in the least to people treating him like a god. In any case, I'm sure LV thinks that the fact he wielded so much power and control over the WW (at least prior to becoming Vapormort) legitimizes his claim to the title. If he is the one making the rules, who can say that he's not entitled to elevate himself above others? In his mind, he already is better than everyone else, so it's only fitting his name and title should reflect that. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun May 25 20:55:57 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 16:55:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: <183.1b81d654.2c0287dd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58636 valkyrievixen at yahoo.com writes: > Our hero is well reputed for his selfless sacrifices, and > justifiably. I agree with Kelly that in the Philosophers Stone story > Harry bravely chose fight or die offering up what could possibly be > his life for a greater good. I'm still waiting for an example of a sacrifice by Harry. Harry is brave, and he takes risks, but I'm still convinced he takes those risks because he knows (or believes) he cannot be seriously harmed. He's survived the AK curse, he's survived several face-to-face encounters with Voldemort, he survived the Tri-Wizard tournament and numerous Quidditch games without so much as a scar. The one time he might have claimed a sacrifice (the "duel" with Voldemort in GoF), he again escaped unharmed! Risk-takers can talk about sacrifice in the past tense (For example, Moody could claim to have sacrificed an eye to the fight against the Dark Forces), but they cannot claim that just taking risks is a "sacrifice". Yes, Harry is brave. Yes, Harry is a hero. Like most heroes, he has companions willing to sacrifice themselves for him. But Harry has yet to sacrifice anything. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Sun May 25 21:10:47 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 21:10:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <183.1b81d654.2c0287dd@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58637 Ray: > > I'm still waiting for an example of a sacrifice by Harry. Harry is brave, > and he takes risks, but I'm still convinced he takes those risks because he > knows (or believes) he cannot be seriously harmed. > > He's survived the AK curse, he's survived several face-to-face encounters > with Voldemort, he survived the Tri-Wizard tournament and numerous Quidditch > games without so much as a scar. In the hospital for a few days in PS/SS, broken arm in CoS, nearly killed on the broomstick and nearly soul-sucked by the dementors in PoA, burned against the dragon, leg and arm injuries against V-Mort in GoF. Yeah, Harry sure has gotten away without a scratch. Will you be satisfied when he's dead? Darrin From WFeuchter at msn.com Sun May 25 22:37:35 2003 From: WFeuchter at msn.com (hpoldfan) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:37:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58638 > > In the hospital for a few days in PS/SS, broken arm in CoS, nearly > killed on the broomstick and nearly soul-sucked by the dementors in > PoA, burned against the dragon, leg and arm injuries against V- Mort > in GoF. > > Yeah, Harry sure has gotten away without a scratch. Will you be > satisfied when he's dead? > > Darrin Yes but those are all acceptable injuries. They are the reslut of how Harry has chosen to live his life. It is like a football player who breaks a leg it is part of the game. Harry knows all he has to so is take a back seat and none of those things would have happened. That is not Harry, and and I suspect that he really does not think about the injuries. Noe of those are sacrifices! Bill From tepmurt at hotmail.com Sun May 25 22:45:54 2003 From: tepmurt at hotmail.com (tepmurt9981) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:45:54 -0000 Subject: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58639 Awhile ago I was reading through my copy of `Sorcerer's Stone' when I realized that many of the Hogwarts ghosts' names may have double meanings, one more `complimentary' than the other. I've searched around a bit and I haven't seen this dealt with anywhere else, so I thought that I'd throw it out there and see what you all think. _House Ghosts_ _Fat Friar_ - Described as "a fat little monk" (SS Chpt.7, pg.115, hardback ed.) Dictionary.com defines fat as `having much or too much fat or flesh; plump or obese.' This quite obviously refers to the Friar's generous girth, so to speak. Now there is nothing wrong with having a little bit extra around the middle, but the word play becomes more obvious when examining the second half of the Hufflepuff ghost's name. A friar is a member of certain Roman Catholic religious orders. They differ from monks in that friars are not bound to a specific monastery and are expected to travel and work/beg for a living. Traditionally, friars are not allowed to own property (infoplease.com). So, if a friar is traveling around and living off of charity, you wouldn't expect him to be fat. Dictionary.com also defines fat as `unnecessary excess.' _Bloody Baron_ - Described as "a horrible ghost...with blank staring eyes, a gaunt face, and robes stained with silver blood" (SS Chpt.7, pg.124, hardback ed.). There are two definitions of bloody that apply here (from OED Online) - Addicted to bloodshed, bloodthirsty, cruel; tainted with crimes of blood, blood-guilty. Now, no one knows for sure, but the Baron is a scary guy and it wouldn't surprise me if he had been quite the murderous tyrant in his day. He _is_ the only one that can control Peeves. Here comes the pun (definition number two): - Covered, smeared, stained, with blood; bleeding What if the Baron was stabbed to death? He's covered in the stuff as a ghost, so it would make sense that he was covered in it when he died). If so, then the title of "Bloody Baron" that he earned by shedding others' blood, gets turned around and ends up making fun of his own messy death. _Nearly-headless Nick_ - Described as "a ghost wearing a ruff and tights" (SS Chpt.7, pg.115, hardback ed.). A lot of you should be more familiar with this one. Nick as in "an abbreviation for the name Nicholas" or nick as in "a shallow cut." Like the one that didn't quite take off his head... _Grey Lady_ - seen, but not named, in Chapter 12 of PS/SS, this ghost is described as "a tall witch." Grey symbolizes security, reliability, intelligence, staid[ness], modesty, maturity, conservative[ness], old age, sadness, and bor[dom] (http:// www.wired4success.com/colorsymbolism.htm) I don't think that the Grey Lady was old when she died, because the only descriptor that we are given is "tall." This is not to say that you cannot be old and tall at the same time, just that if she were old I would imagine another descriptor being used first. Also, though the movies are not strictly canon, the actress that portrays the Grey Lady is not made up to be old, and I would imagine that if old age had been an important factor JK would have said something. Could this possibly be a pun? Grey as in "intelligent," for one would assume that she was in the Ravenclaw house when she was alive. Grey could also mean "old," which the Grey Lady will never be. _Other Ghosts_ Moanin' Myrtle - Gosh, where to start... Myrtle's is one of the more confusing names to sort out. First of all, the most common symbolism recognized in Myrtle's name Moanin' Myrtle=Weeping Willow. In "The Great Gatsby" the name Myrtle symbolizes vitality (http:// functi0n1.tripod.com/thegreatgatsby/color.html). A myrtle is an evergreen shrub (dictionary.com), and thus symbolizes life. Myrtle, when used as a person's first name, means "The tree/Victory" (parenthood.com) -- side note - Willow is closely related, and means "freedom/tree." A Myrtle symbolizes love (http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/ flowers/pcd42.html), and is associated with Venus (www.fabrisia.com/ symbolism.htm). None of these seem to have anything to do with poor Myrtle. Moanin' Myrtle just keeps getting more and more confusing. Not only does she have two names (MM and WW), but each name (the willow and the myrtle) indicates several different types of plants, each with their own contrasting symbolism. The different types of willow trees symbolize anything from mourning, to bravery, to forsaken love, none of which have anything to do with one another. To make matters worse, the Weeping Willow, which might seem to have the most clear-cut symbolism, used to be viewed as a happy symbol simply because of the beauty of the tree. As for myrtle, there are "myrtle" trees, shrubs, and several trailing flowers which are incorrectly named as such. Awhile ago when I was looking symbolism for the characters' wands, I came across a site which associated the willow with death. The explanation was rather wordy, but what I extracted from it was that the willow was associated with death as a natural process of life (this was re: Ron's wand, and would be the flip side of Voldemort's yew wand; the yew tree is fabled to live off of the flesh of the dead; IMO, willow=mortality whereas yew= immortality). Unfortunately, I can't find this page anymore, so this point may be moot. However, Myrtle's death was anything but natural. To be completely honest, Myrtle has me flummoxed. Her symbolism seems to be a mess of contradictions and dead ends (no pun intended). A side note: Willows of any kind are associated with water, often grow directly by a source of water; Myrtle lives in a bathroom stall right by a toilet...*g* This just amused me for some reason. Binns - This symbolism was also harder to figure out. I don't believe we know enough about Binns to really understand the relevance of his name. This is the best I could come up with. binn - a receptacle for holding corn, meal, bread, fruit, and other articles of consumption; a hutch. Also, in later use, for dust (dust-bin), coal, or other things requiring storage for a time. (OED Online) This definition seems to about sum up the things that Professor Binns's body has been used for. First his body stored food, now it's collecting dust. This idea is somehow less satisfactory than some of the others, but it works at least for now. I'd love to hear people's opinions on these, feel free to correct/disagree/add/ whatever, I'm not ridiculously attatched to these ideas. Ta, tepmurt From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sun May 25 23:22:02 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 01:22:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice References: Message-ID: <001001c32314$73c0d040$0d9e253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 58640 Darrin wrote: In the hospital for a few days in PS/SS, broken arm in CoS, nearly killed on the broomstick and nearly soul-sucked by the dementors in PoA, burned against the dragon, leg and arm injuries against V-Mort in GoF. Yeah, Harry sure has gotten away without a scratch. Will you be satisfied when he's dead? Me (Izaskun): And don't forget he was in the verge of death in CoS. Had it not been for Fawkes, he would have been killed by the basilisk's poison. For a few moments he thought he was going to die and it didn't scare him, all he had in mind was to rescue Ginny and make sure she'd survive. Cheers, Izaskun Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 25 23:45:59 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:45:59 -0000 Subject: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tepmurt9981" wrote: > Here comes the pun (definition number two): > - Covered, smeared, stained, with blood; bleeding > What if the Baron was stabbed to death? He's covered in the stuff > as a ghost, so it would make sense that he was covered in it when > he died). > Moanin' Myrtle > First of all, the most common symbolism recognized in Myrtle's name > Moanin' Myrtle=Weeping Willow. The willow for mourning (btw, it seems to me that mourning and forsaken love are indeed related), the myrtle for romantic/erotic love ... it suits her. She's always mourning over herself, and she's yearning for romantic/erotic love (as per her come-on to Harry in CoS ("you could live in my toilet") and her peeping-Thomasina-ism in GoF) > Binns - This symbolism was also harder to figure out. Someone posted once that "binns" is slang for big thick eyeglasses (from "binoculars") and thus appropriate to Binns's absent-minded professor persona. From grosich at nyc.rr.com Sun May 25 23:54:27 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (rosich10002) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:54:27 -0000 Subject: [Snapefans] The Old Snape Loves Lily Theory In-Reply-To: <002f01c322c5$3ef2b120$bd04a6d8@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > It could be. But I think, given the particular mention of "glittering eyes," > that it is the temptation of old ways and power that will tempt Snape. Do > you remember/did you see Porphyria's analysis of when the term "glittering" > or "glinting" was used for eyes (mostly Snape's), and what was happening at > each time? [was an HP4GU post]Snape is always doing something cruel or > aggressive. Always. In that light, I find it ominous that Snape's eyes were > glittering as he left to begin his task. > Amanda (or anyone else who can answer), I would be very interested in reading this analysis. I couldn't find it in the archives. btw, I'm sure it was mentioned, but when Snape's eyes glitter at the end of GoF, he also turned very pale. I think that made a difference in people's minds, that this task was somehow scarier, or more threatening than anything else. Gina From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 26 00:28:42 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:28:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58643 > Yes but those are all acceptable injuries. They are the reslut of > how Harry has chosen to live his life. It is like a football player > who breaks a leg it is part of the game. > > Harry knows all he has to so is take a back seat and none of those > things would have happened. That is not Harry, and and I suspect > that he really does not think about the injuries. > > Noe of those are sacrifices! > > Bill No, Bill. THIS is what I was responding to. Ray: He's survived the AK curse, he's survived several face-to-face encounters with Voldemort, he survived the Tri-Wizard tournament and numerous Quidditch games without so much as a scar. Now me: That just mind-bogglingly incorrect statement is what I was commenting on. (Survive the AK curse without so much as a scar? Then what in the green hell is that on his forehead?) So, no fair changing the game on me. Now, if you want me to respond to what you said, here. If all Harry has to do is take a back seat and none of the "acceptable injuries" will happen, is he not sacrificing his safety, peace of mind, and generally tranquility to try to make his world a better place? Like I said, I think some won't think Harry has made a sacrifice until he's dead. Darrin -- Without So Much As A Scar. Great band name. Bet their music is lame though. From catlady at wicca.net Mon May 26 00:31:16 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:31:16 -0000 Subject: [Glittering Eyes] The Old Snape Loves Lily Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rosich10002" wrote: > I would be very interested in reading this analysis. I couldn't > find it in the archives. Porphyria's analysis of Snape's eyes glittering: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/46570 while looking for it, I found this GREAT post by Porphyria http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/47564 Personally, I still read the GoF scene as Snape repressing fear, altho' in a romance fanfic I wrote Snape's lover thinking of his "onyx eyes: sometimes glittering with malice, sometimes flashing with rage, occasionally gleaming with pride at some triumph of Slytherin House, but never before soft ... " And the blanching ... Porphyria wrote: << "I told you to shut up about my dad!" Harry yelled. I know the truth, all right? He saved your life! Dumbledore told me! You wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for my dad!" Snape's sallow skin had gone the color of sour milk. "And did the headmaster tell you the circumstances in which your father saved my life?" he whispered. "Or did he consider the details too unpleasant for precious Potter's delicate ears?" Here again, I interpret his feelings to be utter rage and aggression; he's about to trash Harry's image of his father in retaliation. >> I understand that blanching as response to the pain of being wounded by an unexpected blow. Being reminded of The Prank was emotionally painful to him, and he hadn't expected it because he would have thought that Harry didn't know about it. First reaction to that pain is to conceal it, self-control, no tears, act tough. Immediate second reaction is to hit back in whatever way one thinks of first. I say "rage and pain", not "rage and aggression".: From jhlupin at hotmail.com Mon May 26 00:55:31 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:55:31 -0000 Subject: Petunia is a *Squib* In-Reply-To: <20030525175809.22893.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58645 .--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, robert haberfield wrote: > How about this; is aunt Petunia a squib? Were her and Lilly Potter's mum and dad WW's? It would go some way towards explaining her extreem anti wizard atitude. Has this been discussed before? > > Robert (the old) LH: The Petunia is a squib theory is widely held. The only way it makes sense though, as squibs are quite rare, and obviously Petunia takes great pains to distance herself from the wizarding world, is that at least one of her and Lily's parents were indeed a witch or wizard. I agree, Petunia's hostility is indicative of more than simple jealousy of the attention her sister received as a witch. What seems more likely is that either Mum or Pop Evans were either witch or wizard and they both made a deliberate decision to live as muggles. This is likely to protect a secret that would otherwise put their family at great risk. My favorite theory is that one of them is a descendant of Slytherin, and as Voldemort is gaining power and influence, they choose to sacrifice life in the wizarding world for the safety of themselves and their future family. We don't know which sister is older, but I assume Petunia was born first, a near-squib, and showed little sign of her magical potential. Therefore her family presumed she was a squib. Lily was born, and at some point between birth and receiving her Hogwart's letter, her parents became aware of her magical potential. They may have had some misgivings, but at some very basic level were pleased that Lily was a witch. It seems that having a squib child is very hard for wizarding families, as is evidenced by the Longbottoms' concern over Neville. Their secret remained safe as long as Lily was thought to have been muggle-born, so they could share their overabundant joy and relief and keep their family safe. At some point, Petunia became aware of the true nature of her family, and distanced herself, feeling betrayed, rejected and an outsider in her own family. This also explains why Voldemort started showing intrest in the Potters around the time Harry was born. Likely a jealous Snape in a moment of extreme resentment, let slip to Voldemort Lily's true heritage. How he knew I haven't figured out, but there are infinte posts about a presumed Snape-Lily -James triangle. Voldemort sees the combination of the Gryffindor and Slytherin blood lines as a obstacle to his goals. As Snape sent Voldemort's plan to kill Harry into motion (albeit unintentionally), he re-examines his life and leaves the Death Eaters. He resents Harry because he is the child of the man who stole away the love of his life, but feels a debt to protect Harry's life. Many reject this theory as it does seem rather obvious, but i'm sure it will be the basis for even more plot twists. Others feel it undermines the "choice" theme by giving Harry such a prestigious bloodline, but I don't. Lily chooses against Slytherin and becomes a Gryffindor. Harry, tested as he is by the Sorting Hat, also chooses Gryffindor. It is in the end about the choices we make. All in my humble opinion, and of course, likely to be proven completely wrong in less than a month... LH From jodel at aol.com Mon May 26 02:03:22 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:03:22 EDT Subject: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's hair and status) Message-ID: <194.19a65202.2c02cfea@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58646 Kelly Grosskreutz comments; > I will let someone else explain why Lucius Malfoy is not called Lord, as I > do not really know.? My guess would be that no one has conferred the title > upon him. > I've wondered whether an abandonment of Muggle titles may not be something that was adopted by the ww durring their Seclusion. The scarcity of wizards in general would make for an even greater scarcety of titled wizards, but the historical existence of "Sir" Nicolas and the "Baron" is a clear indication that such did once exist. I'm only surprised that they did not establish their own purely wizarding "titles" instead. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Mon May 26 02:03:19 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:03:19 EDT Subject: Red-haired Gryffindors Message-ID: <16c.1f0c7a7e.2c02cfe7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58647 Valky wrote: >>By the way I always pictured Godric gryffindor with Red Hair.<< Not at all unreasonably. I went hunting and came across a nice little conversation in a book where the fact that a character had red hair was relevant to some other characters' motivations. It's fiction, so I don't know how accurate it is. But there's a good chance that the author did research it rather than make it up. In any case, it's enough to let someone who wants to try to sort it out do so. 'Gruffydd is a Welsh name, a varient form of Griffin ... They were very literal in the old days, ... 'Griffin' also means the same thing as the Celtic 'Griffith' and the Greek 'Rufus'... They all mean 'red-haired'." So we have Godric "Gryffindor" which might just possibly have been a simple "name-by-physical-trait" way of calling him Godric the re-headed. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 26 02:18:54 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:18:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mirror of Erised - Lily crying? Message-ID: <30.3fae023a.2c02d38e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58648 rose_in_shadow at yahoo.com writes: > And nothing else is mentioned about this. Why is the > Erised Lily crying? JMHO, but in the WW, paintings can interact with people, so why not reflections? The image of Lily, called up from Harry's memory, is "seeing" her little baby safe and approaching manhood. Most mothers would cry in this situation. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 26 02:36:52 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:36:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: <21.2fb9a45f.2c02d7c4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58649 bard7696 at aol.com writes: > In the hospital for a few days in PS/SS, broken arm in CoS, nearly > killed on the broomstick and nearly soul-sucked by the dementors in > PoA, burned against the dragon, leg and arm injuries against V-Mort > in GoF. Healed and healed and healed again. The only lasting injury he's ever had was the scar Voldemort gave him. Even broken arm suffered in the Quidditch match would have been healed quickly had it not been for the "help" provided by Lockhart. Harry risks his life again and again and walks away unharmed. The only two times Harry has faced certain death (both times by Lord Voldemort), he has walked away from it substantially unharmed. And in neither case did he have a choice about it. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 26 02:46:37 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:46:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: <21.2fb9a466.2c02da0d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58650 bard7696 at aol.com writes: > That just mind-bogglingly incorrect statement is what I was > commenting on. (Survive the AK curse without so much as a scar? Then > what in the green hell is that on his forehead?) Hardly incorrect, but inexactly phrased. What I meant was "he has survived the Tri-Wizarding Tournament and numerous Quidditch games without so much as a scar ." With all the misadventures he has suffered in four years, he has ONE scar, which was given to him when he was still in his crib. > > If all Harry has to do is take a back seat and none of > the "acceptable injuries" will happen, is he not sacrificing his > safety, peace of mind, and generally tranquility to try to make his > world a better place? I have mentioned that Harry has sacrificed a "normal life". But I have also said that this particular sacrifice actually benefited *Harry*. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 26 02:53:37 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 02:53:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <21.2fb9a45f.2c02d7c4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > bard7696 at a... writes: > > > In the hospital for a few days in PS/SS, broken arm in CoS, nearly > > killed on the broomstick and nearly soul-sucked by the dementors in > > PoA, burned against the dragon, leg and arm injuries against V- Mort > > in GoF. > > Healed and healed and healed again. The only lasting injury he's ever had > was the scar Voldemort gave him. Even broken arm suffered in the Quidditch > match would have been healed quickly had it not been for the "help" provided by Lockhart. Harry risks his life again and again and walks away unharmed. You keep changing your statements. First, he comes away "without so much as a scar," which is completely untrue. Then, in the first sentence of this quote, you say he has been hurt, but he was healed. OK, what does that do for you? Are you trying to say that because magical medicine heals quickly, then the injuries suffered -- which are still painful, mind you -- are less worthy? In that case, Ron was likely healed quickly, once they got him to the hospital after the chess board incident. Does HIS sacrifice mean less? But then, in the last sentence, you go back to saying Harry walks away unharmed, which, again, is wrong. He's suffered injuries in all the books, and ended up in the hospital at least once in all the books. What exactly is your point here? I gather you're trying to prove Harry hasn't made a sacrifice, but it seems to me that trying to downplay the physical abuse he's suffered is not the way to go about it. Darrin From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 26 03:29:42 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:29:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: <9f.38d62518.2c02e426@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58652 bard7696 at aol.com writes: > What exactly is your point here? I gather you're trying to prove > Harry hasn't made a sacrifice, but it seems to me that trying to > downplay the physical abuse he's suffered is not the way to go about > it. The word "sacrifice" has several definitions, but here is the one I think applies: "3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else. b : something given up or lost " Has Harry ever lost an eye, an ear, a limb, or even a tooth? No. Does Harry walk with a limp? Does he suffer from shortness of breath? No. So, what has he sacrificed? Harry takes risks, yes. But with the sure and certain knowledge that whatever ills may befall him will be set right. Which means he doesn't really "risk" anything. When Ron sacrificed himself on the chess board in PS/SS, he did so with the knowledge that he might have been fatally injured. Harry, on the other hand has been in situations where he *should* have died several times, and lived to tell about it each time. Every time this happens, he will be more certain that he will walk away the next time. Risk does not equal sacrifice. LOSS equals sacrifice, and so far Harry has never lost anything by his own actions. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 26 03:34:42 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:34:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: [Snapefans] The Old Snape Loves Lily Theory References: Message-ID: <000c01c32337$bfab3db0$15ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58653 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" > wrote: > > > > > It could be. But I think, given the particular mention of "glittering eyes," > > that it is the temptation of old ways and power that will tempt Snape. Do > > you remember/did you see Porphyria's analysis of when the term "glittering" > > or "glinting" was used for eyes (mostly Snape's), and what was happening > at > > each time? [was an HP4GU post]Snape is always doing something cruel or > > aggressive. Always. In that light, I find it ominous that Snape's eyes were > > glittering as he left to begin his task. > > > Gina wrote: > Amanda (or anyone else who can answer), > I would be very interested in reading this analysis. I couldn't find it in the > archives. > > btw, I'm sure it was mentioned, but when Snape's eyes glitter at the end of > GoF, he also turned very pale. I think that made a difference in people's > minds, that this task was somehow scarier, or more threatening than anything > else. I have read Porphyria's post and this one here, and here's my take on it at the moment. He paled because he was afraid. He has known this moment has been coming for over a decade, and he and Dumbledore have been preparing for it. But, whatever the task is, I'm sure it is dangerous and has something to do with his past associations. I don't think he relishes doing the task D asks him to do. But he is willing to do it. He is willing to persevere and do whatever needs to be done to achieve his goal, presumably aiding in the downfall of Voldemort. I see this more as the source of the glittering in his eyes this time: the resolve and the will to see things through until the end, whatever the end may be. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Mon May 26 03:57:16 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 22:57:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] File - ADMIN OoP Spoilers.txt References: <1053874977.28076270.76868.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002a01c3233a$e65325b0$15ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58654 > > For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, > Sirius." Harry and Sirius are so interconnected in previous books > that this isn't a spoiler. "OOP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, > *would* be a spoiler, as we don't know whether Lupin is in Book > 5. "OOP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be > posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). Question on this. You say that "OOP: Harry, Lupin" would be indicative of Lupin being in the book and being interconnected with Harry. But this is not necessarily true. The person could be posting two separate things in the same topic, one about Harry, and one about Lupin (perhaps why he is not in the book). Now, on the other hand, posting "OOP: Harry *and* Lupin" would be a definite spoiler. I mean, if you don't want us to post in the manner of the first, that's fine with me. Just thought I'd point out a situation where the two could perhaps not be interconnected. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon May 26 04:51:43 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 04:51:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <9f.38d62518.2c02e426@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > The word "sacrifice" has several definitions, but here is the one I think > applies: > > "3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else. > b : something given up or lost " > > Has Harry ever lost an eye, an ear, a limb, or even a tooth? No. Does Harry > walk with a limp? Does he suffer from shortness of breath? No. So, what > has he sacrificed? > > Harry takes risks, yes. But with the sure and certain knowledge that > whatever ills may befall him will be set right. Which means he doesn't really "risk" > anything. Annemehr: How do you see so much of that assurance in the books? In PS/SS he thought he was going to die. In CoS, when down in the Chamber, he was very careful to try not to look into the basilisk's eyes. He went into the chamber knowing there was a basilisk which *would* kill him if he did look. Only in PoA does he seem convinced he will *not* die -- and he acts accordingly -- until Padfoot drags Ron into the Willow, and then he and Hermione proceed cautiously until Harry sees Black and his fury takes over. In GoF, circumstances seem to carry him along, so that Harry is making very few choices. He certainly doesn't seem to believe he has any real choice in competing in the TWT, can't see how it can be a plot to harm him other than the danger of the tasks themselves, and has the assurance of Dumbledore that they had taken precautions to prevent loss of life (though the dragon still terrifies him). Still, not a situation that calls for "sacrifice" other than of peace of mind for an entire school year. Ray: > When Ron sacrificed himself on the chess board in PS/SS, he did so with the > knowledge that he might have been fatally injured. Annemehr: The same knowledge that Harry had in confronting Quirrel!Mort, entering the basilisk's lair, and following a "murderer" who had taken his best friend into a secret passage. Ray: > Harry, on the other hand > has been in situations where he *should* have died several times, and lived to > tell about it each time. Every time this happens, he will be more certain that > he will walk away the next time. Annemehr: But, I don't see any sign of this certainty in the books. On the contrary, I see real fear of death plenty of times. Ray: > Risk does not equal sacrifice. LOSS equals sacrifice, and so far Harry has > never lost anything by his own actions. > > -- Ray Annemehr: You know, I'm not sure we've seen the sort of foreknown sacrifice you're looking for anywhere in the books so far, with one possible exception (see next paragraph). There isn't even any proof that Lily's sacrifice was one of these (i.e. no proof that she knew and intended that being killed while standing between V and Harry would save her child's life). I've always read it that she had no time to run away with Harry, doesn't seem to have even had her wand on her, and just did the frantic pleading that you might expect from a mother for her child. Even the "take me, kill me instead" never made me think this was part of a *plan* to save Harry but only desperation. She just chose to do what she could rather than stand aside, and this is exactly what *Harry* does. I know many believe that Lily always planned to give her life as the last step in a charm to save Harry, but there is no canon evidence that this is the case. The only "sacrifice" I can think of, is when Wormtail cuts off his own hand for Voldemort's potion. In this case, he is sacrificing one hand to save his whole life, so I'm not sure this counts. And then, he *was* promised the silver hand afterwards. ;-) So, okay. I agree that Harry has no lasting *physical* harm resulting from his actions. I certainly don't agree that he now thinks himself indestructible, and he never did, except for not being afraid of Sirius Black. If he thought he was indestructible, why did he come back so traumatised after the horror in the graveyard? Why doesn't he swagger and laugh and boast of how Voldemort can't beat him? Harry really does take risks, he knows he can die, and he also knows that "no spell can bring someone back from the dead." Harry was *willing* to sacrifice his life; he just hasn't had to. Annemehr From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon May 26 07:58:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 07:58:38 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <183.1b81d654.2c0287dd@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > ...edited... > > Yes, Harry is brave. Yes, Harry is a hero. Like most heroes, he has > companions willing to sacrifice themselves for him. But Harry has yet to sacrifice > anything. > > -- Ray bboy_mn: What you object to is the fact that Harry hasn't LOST the things he freely and willingly sacrificed. To use a metaphor, other are saying the fact that Harry gambled and WON, doesn't diminish the fact that he gambled. You seem to be saying his repeated acts of selflessness and self-sacrifice only count if he loses. I think most people see Harry's applied willingness to sacrifice in and of itself as a scarifice. By applied willingness, I mean that Harry just doesn't sit around and intellectually say, 'Yes, I'm willing to do that'. He actually goes out and does it. Using the Stone as an example, he didn't talk about his williness to go and save it, he actually did it, and in doing so faces a very very high likelihood of death; he willingly went up against hopeless odds. And, as the event unfolded, more that once he faced certain death, and chose to go on. He chose to selflessly fight on and sacrifice himself rather the admit defeat and retreat. Harry willingly and eagerly through his actions sacrifices himself for the greater good. The difference between you and most people, is that most people don't hold the fact that he won against him. Harry has repeated engaged in the act of sacrifice, and come out of it alive. So, if we accept your apparent definition that it only counts if he loses, then I guess he hasn't sacrificed anything in the sense that he hasn't lost anything. Just a thought. bboy_mn From madaxe at starspath.com Mon May 26 02:07:54 2003 From: madaxe at starspath.com (brassgryphon) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 02:07:54 -0000 Subject: Why Spying!Snape won't happen Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58657 Dumbledore is not that dumb. True, Harry probably skimmed the Six Missing in his retelling, but still, Snape is a teacher at Dumbledore's school and is quite literally serving "that champion of Mudbloods and commoners". I doubt Snape would be able, or even supposedly able, to get around that. Plus, there's more of his background on the way. He could have blanched for any number of reasons. Finally, even when the Dark Mark began to appear on his arm, he said that he would remain at Hogwarts. Obviously, he "knew what he must do" by then as well. So no, the obvious theory probably won't carry. "brassgryphon" From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 26 09:53:34 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:53:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030526095334.45212.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58658 Steve wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > > ...edited... > > Yes, Harry is brave. Yes, Harry is a hero. Like most heroes, he has > companions willing to sacrifice themselves for him. But Harry has yet to sacrifice > anything. > > -- Ray Robert the old It appears that by your definition the only way any WW can make a scarifice is to die. Wizard healing being what it is, almost anything else will be cured. You do not appear to count mental anguish etc.. Long live Harry Robert the old Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Mon May 26 11:36:35 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:36:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <9f.38d62518.2c02e426@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58659 Ray: > > The word "sacrifice" has several definitions, but here is the one I think > applies: > > "3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else. > b : something given up or lost " > OK, let's go with this for a minute. I disagree with it, but let's use it. > Has Harry ever lost an eye, an ear, a limb, or even a tooth? No. Does Harry walk with a limp? Does he suffer from shortness of breath? No. So, what has he sacrificed? Under this definition, he hasn't sacrificed anything. But under this definition, the only living character who HAS sacrificed anything is Mad-Eye Moody. Oh, I guess Pettigrew has sacrificed his finger for his beliefs, so count him too. > Harry takes risks, yes. But with the sure and certain knowledge that whatever ills may befall him will be set right. Which means he doesn't really "risk" anything. You have not proven this knowledge. Not even close. Being lucky doesn't prove you knew you would win. > When Ron sacrificed himself on the chess board in PS/SS, he did so with the knowledge that he might have been fatally injured. But Ron came away without a scar, a limp, a missing tooth, or whatever else was on the laundry list you gave. Hence, no sacrifice. Sorry, Ron, thanks for playing. If LOSS equals sacrifice, then Ron didn't lose a damn thing. Hence, no sacrifice. These are your rules, not mine. I think the definition is wrong and way too narrow. Darrin From lumos28 at yahoo.com Mon May 26 12:09:56 2003 From: lumos28 at yahoo.com (lumos28) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:09:56 -0000 Subject: My weekly catch-up post..Hindu mythology again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58660 Catlady wrote: >>I thought Garuda was the vehicle of Indra, sky/storm god called King >>of the Gods, but not as high a god as the Three (called Trimurti?). >>Shiva's vehicle is Nandi the bull, but I can't remember whom I was >>told was Vishnu's vehicle. Indra's vehicle is a white elephant who goes by the slightly complicated name of 'Aairaavat'. And yes, Indra is not as high as the Trinity (Trimurti-you're right on target) He also has a terrible storm and lightening producing weapon, the Thunderbolt. Shiva's vehicle is Nandi, the bull. And Garuda belongs to Vishnu. >>I think of Padma as a Vishnaiva name, because as Vishnu sleeps on the >>coils of the cosmic serpent (is that his vehicle?) with his feet >>resting in the lap of his wife Lakshmi goddesss of wealth and beauty >>(he is the Preserver, she is goddess of some things that people are >>eager to preserve), there is a Lotus growing out of his navel. That >>Lotus, sometimes personified as a goddess Padma, is the entire >>physical world, the illusory material world that we experience, >>also called Maya ('illusion', a related word to 'magic') and Lila >>('play'). So sometimes it is said that Padma, Maya, and Lila are >>junior wives of Vishnu and sometimes that they are additional aspects >>of Lakshmi. Vishnu does in fact sleep in the serpent coils (I can't recollect the name of the snake) in the ocean, along with Lakshmi. I believe Padma is another name for Lakshmi, she is said to be Lotus- eyed, but I'll have to check up on that. 'Padma Lakshmi' is sometimes used as a single name. As in Salman Rushdie's wife. Vishnu, however, is sometimes depicted to be flying on Garuda. The Lotus that grows from his navel is where Brahma sits. It is said Brahma, the Creator was himself born from Vishnu's navel, and I believe he appeared on the lotus. Lord Vishnu himself is famous for his 10 incarnations. The 'dasha (ten) Avatars (incarnations)' as they are called. The more famous of these 10 are Rama and Krishna. I am not aware of Maya, Lila and Padma being junior wives of Vishnu. However, these Gods and Goddesses have so many 'additional aspects', to borrow your phrase and forms, its a little hard to keep track! Ancient sages have often been quoted as saying "The whole world is Maya-an illusion". >>It originally struck me as strange that twin sisters had one a Vishnaiva name and the other a Shiva-ist (what is that called?) name, That is quite true. You could have both type of names. I think Shiva- ist can be put forth as Shaiva. Not sure ... >>I hesitate to disagree with someone who lives in the relevant place, >>but I was under the impression that here in USA, Patel and Patil are >>interchangeable spellings of the same name. is that so? I don't think they are interchangeable here. Patels and Patils, like my earlier message said, are from 2 very distinct communities. Maybe, the Patels spell their name as Patil abroad (?) But they'd still belong to a different community than the real Patils. The Marathi Patil is very much a village administrator in the rural parts, who wields quite some power. That set me thinking about old, wizarding families. >>I kind of assumed that JKR just picked a South Asian surname that >>she'd encountered from someone she'd met, and then picked Indian >>first names that alliterated with it. That is perfectly possible. >> Some listie was arguing that many people named Patil or Patel are Muslims Definitely not Muslim. And yes, there is very little chance that a Muslim would be named after a Hindu Goddess. -Anita, who's delighted someone's discussing the Hindu myths-JKR connection with her. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 26 12:55:33 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:55:33 -0000 Subject: Petunia is a *Squib* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jhlupin" wrote: > .--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, robert haberfield > wrote: > > > How about this; is aunt Petunia a squib? LH wrote also: > > What seems more likely is that either Mum or Pop Evans were > either witch or wizard and they both made a deliberate decision > to live as muggles. This is likely to protect a secret that would > otherwise put their family at great risk. Valky: I like this theory. I have one question though. Why would wizard kind who had chosen to leave for the muggle world for the safety of their descendents, then be pleased that one of the said descendents was returning, to the apparent danger zone, at the very vulnerable age of 11. I would imagine that they would prefer Lily not to attend Hogwarts. From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon May 26 13:05:44 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:05:44 -0000 Subject: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tepmurt9981" wrote: <<_Fat Friar_ - Described as "a fat little monk" (SS Chpt.7, pg.115, hardback ed.) A friar is a member of certain Roman Catholic religious orders. They differ from monks in that friars are not bound to a specific monastery and are expected to travel and work/beg for a living. Traditionally, friars are not allowed to own property (infoplease.com). So, if a friar is traveling around and living off of charity, you wouldn't expect him to be fat. <<< Ali responds:- One of Robin Hood's Merry Men was a fat friar: Friar Tuck. The idea of having a fat friar is already well established in British folklore. Who knows, the Fat Friar could even be Friar Tuck. >>> The Grey Lady_ - seen, but not named, in Chapter 12 of PS/SS, this ghost is described as "a tall witch." Could this possibly be a pun? Grey as in "intelligent," for one would assume that she was in the Ravenclaw house when she was alive. Grey could also mean "old," which the Grey Lady will never be.<<< Ali again: The Grey Lady is a ghost said to haunt many places in Britain - York Minster being one such place. She's generally said to be Lady Jane Grey who was named by Edward the 6th as his successor, but reigned for only 9 days. Despite being an innocent pawn in the proceedings, she was later executed by Mary the 1st. Lady Jane Grey was indeed meant to be a gifted scholar. I think she was around 16 when she died. Ali From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 26 13:23:57 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:23:57 -0000 Subject: the term "professor" and titles in general (was: Snape's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" > wrote: > > I suspect that during this time he may have laid a > > legitimate claim to a Lordship, and that is why DD uses the term > > in his address. Rita wrote: > I have trouble believing that TMR would seek to be ennobled by the > Queen of England, as to him she is just another worthless Muggle. . > Valkys reply: I agree. Actually I was not suggesting that Tom was interested in the muggle title but rather in a parrallel Wizard World distinction. I assume, to some extent, that if Dumbledore recognises the title, Lord, conferred upon Voldemort, that it could be a legitimate nobility in the Wizard World. Conjecture leads me to a vision of Tom masterminding an honourable rise to power for himself and acquiring a nobility through his general good service to the wizard world. I believe that he did not turn outwardly murderous and evil before he climbed the top rung of the WW ladder. We know, now, that LV was a sinister digressor as a teenager. But how can we all suppose that the entire wizard world knew that then. Canon decrees the opposite entirely. He recieved the Award for Special Services to his school was Head Boy etc etc. If he was successfully gaining self satisfaction and power by concealing his darkness at this age, there is a strong possibility that he would continue on this tack until it failed to serve his needs anymore. Rita wrote: > I think TMR spent those years studying Dark Arts and other magic, > seeking out ancient libraries of spell books of forgotten spells, and > old wizards rumored to have discovered/invented spells to defeat > death, experimenting with spells he had himself invented, allegedly > all in pursuit of Immortality, but I think also in pursuit of Power. > Valkys reply: He certainly must have. Of course, you believe he put to use some, if not most, of this learning throughout that time though, don't you? Rita wrote: > But I suppose it is possible that he spent part of that time in > search of Wealth (to use as a means to power). Perhaps he reckoned > that the best route to wealth for a wizard of his intelligence, > charm, and magic is in the Muggle world (remember that Muggle money > can be converted to wizarding money at Gringotts). I feel that he > would be inclined to get his Muggle money by fraud, because of > disrespecting Muggles too much to be willing to play by their rules. > It would have worked; he would be a very successful con man even > without ever using a bit of magic. > Valkys reply: Yeah I guess but it doesnt seem to me to be of importance to the plot even if he did. In closing I hope I have clarified the mistier points of my argument that LV may be a real Lord. From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Mon May 26 13:00:35 2003 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen L. Evans) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 06:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: all eyes In-Reply-To: <1053904932.2639.18090.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030526130035.87883.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58664 As a fan of Harry Potter I have read the books several times each. The more I read them the more things I notice. One of the things I?ve noticed this time is that J.K. Rowling often describes the color of character?s eyes, more so than other authors do. Do you think she does that so we can visualize the character or do you think there's something more to it? Perhaps the color of a character?s eyes may be a symbol or an allusion to something else. Let me know what you think. Thanks in advance, Karen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Mon May 26 13:18:59 2003 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen L. Evans) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 06:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts In-Reply-To: <1053904932.2639.18090.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030526131859.56032.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58665 tepmurt9981 said, ?What if the Baron was stabbed to death? He's covered in the stuff as a ghost, so it would make sense that he was covered in it when he died).? The blood that the Baron is covered with is silver blood. Therefore, I don?t believe it is his. The only silver blood I know of is that of an unicorn. There could be other things that have silver blood that we don?t know about, but I think that the blood on him is unicorn blood. Which means he must have killed a unicorn - a horrible crime. I think that the first definition tepmurt9981 gave was more accurate in describing the Bloody Baron, " addicted to bloodshed, bloodthirsty, cruel; tainted with crimes of blood, blood-guilty. " Karen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From azevedan at yahoo.com Mon May 26 12:05:21 2003 From: azevedan at yahoo.com (azevedan) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:05:21 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58666 I've been reading some of the old posts (and the FAQ) on the meaning of the gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye when Harry tells him (in GoF) about Wormtail taking his (Harry's) blood for Voldemort's revival. I didn't come across any speculation similar to the one I've had, which is that Harry's blood now makes Voldemort a relative (in the sense of having the same bloodline, being a blood relative, blood brother, etc.) This would mean that Harry now can't be harmed in Voldemort's presence, since Dumbledore set up that 'ancient protection' for Harry. Of course, Voldemort manages to get him with the Cruciatus curse. But maybe that doesn't count as 'harm'? New poster, Ann From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon May 26 13:57:56 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:57:56 -0000 Subject: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > The Grey Lady is a ghost said to haunt many places in Britain - York > Minster being one such place. She's generally said to be Lady Jane > Grey who was named by Edward the 6th as his successor, but reigned > for only 9 days. Despite being an innocent pawn in the proceedings, > she was later executed by Mary the 1st. Lady Jane Grey was indeed > meant to be a gifted scholar. I think she was around 16 when she > died. > Valky is keen: Curiouser and curiouser....... Lady Grey was 16 when she died. If mythology is any tool to be used in pre-empting a future book mystery I am thinking I have just spied the very key. THe Ravenclaw Ghost is a mirror of a historical figure used as a pawn and executed at a tender young age. Obviously the scholarly recognition is her connection with the Ravenclaw house. But about the other two aspects of the myth. Ok, I am back at the Timetravel Overkill Method. Insisting Something Happened Affecting Relative Riddle Years. {TOM IS HARRY} and Our Reasoning Timetravel Overkill Method Is Saying Ginny Harry Offspring Unknowingly Lord_Voldemort {OR TOM IS GHOUL} My suspicion deals with the Grey Lady's ghost being tied to the historical events surrounding future HP books set in the past. For people who dont like this subject I have given fair warning. I am twisting the knife on the TimeTravel method. TimeTurners UNITE!!! From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Mon May 26 15:28:50 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 08:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts In-Reply-To: <20030526131859.56032.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030526152850.67440.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58668 Karen wrote: << >>> And now me (Odile): Interesting indeed... however, I always understood that the blood on the Bloody Baron was silver because the ghosts aren't "in color." As such, red could not appear to be red on a ghost. They are described in PS as "pearly-white and slightly transparent" and "misty silver." I could be wrong, of course. ^_^ btw, is "Baron" a British title? I was thinking that it is more German, as in "The Red Baron" that Snoopy and others fought in WWI. If so, then is the Bloody Baron even English? From cello_siok at yahoo.com Mon May 26 13:11:22 2003 From: cello_siok at yahoo.com (cello_siok) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:11:22 -0000 Subject: DADA position. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58669 Do you think to be a DADA professor, that person must know how to do dark arts? I think my grammer is wrong. What I mean was the person who teaches DADA also know how to perform dark arts. Do you think it is logical? Snape knows a lot of dark arts and he wanted that job badly (if it's true)but Dumbledore puts him as potion professor. "cello_siok" From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Mon May 26 13:44:58 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:44:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] all eyes Message-ID: <1e5.9ade8a3.2c03745a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58670 It's evident that there is something important about Harry having his Mothers green eyes, but everybody elses? I think JK does this to help us visualise but also to tell us about the character, for example: Malfoy has cold gray eyes which represents his personality. Whilst Dumbledores twinkle and Snapes are a bottomless pit of black. Voldemorts are a red gleaming menace and Olivanders are described as quite scary. It gives us an immediate impression of the character introduced I think. I just can't imagine a twist in the plot where everyones eyes mean something. Good point though, Loadsa love Nic xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Mon May 26 13:50:32 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:50:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye Message-ID: <1a6.1536c00f.2c0375a8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58671 Would Voldemort be so foolish to let such a thing happen? I tend not to think about that one line out of all the books, it just makes my head hurt, I just tend to think 'Well, Dumbledore knows something that Voldemort doesn't.' I just think the idea of Dumbledore being evil is quite far-fetched. I have never shared my speculation of this topic because no doubt, everything has been said before. Blood Brothers - I dont know that much about that kind of thing. But if you say is true then we have two enemies which aren't gonna hurt Harry - Voldemort and Wormtail (life debt). Harry needs to be attacked by someone... at the end of the day, I just go for the boring speculation: That voldemort is now probably mortal. Loadsa love Nic xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lmbolland at earthlink.net Mon May 26 14:56:57 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (eric_and_lauri) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:56:57 -0000 Subject: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58672 > Ali responds:- > > One of Robin Hood's Merry Men was a fat friar: Friar Tuck. The idea > of having a fat friar is already well established in British > folklore. Who knows, the Fat Friar could even be Friar Tuck. > > The Grey Lady is a ghost said to haunt many places in Britain - York > Minster being one such place. She's generally said to be Lady Jane > Grey who was named by Edward the 6th as his successor, but reigned > for only 9 days. Throughout the books, JKR ties history (even fictional/legendary history) into the "reality" of Hogwarts. She's so clever about it! I assumed that the Fat Friar was indeed Friar Tuck and the Grey Lady was Lady Jane Grey (though I've read some people believe her to be Rowena Ravenclaw?) I know there was an old horror movie called Baron Blood, but I don't know if the bloody fellow was fictional or historical. 8-O Perhaps if he *was* historical, he could be our Bloody Baron? Lauri From lmbolland at earthlink.net Mon May 26 14:33:09 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (eric_and_lauri) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:33:09 -0000 Subject: Petunia is a *Squib* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, robert haberfield wrote: > > > How about this; is aunt Petunia a squib? Were her and Lilly > Potter's mum and dad WW's? It would go some way towards > explaining her extreem anti wizard atitude. Has this been > discussed before? > > > > Robert (the old) > Our favorite theory on this (as a potter-fan family) is that one of Lily and Petunia's great-grandfathers was a wizard who chose to marry a muggle, and after having muggle offspring, chose to live in the muggle world. Of course, we'd like to believe that the Grandfather (or great-grandfather) may have been Dumbledore. As a man who respects the muggle world, he might have fallen in love with a muggle woman. We suppose that after the woman died and the child/children grew and married another muggle (or perhaps after the child grew old and died - Dumbledore IS 150!) Dumbledore returned to the Wizarding world to teach at Hogwarts. (Perhaps after defeating Grindlewald in 1945 when he was around 100?) The muggle children/grandchildren/great- grandchildren knew stories of the wizarding world and perhaps handed them down. Imagine the surprise when Lily got her letter! Wow! A witch in the family - we thought that was just family legend! Then great surprise to discover that their wizard ancestor is still living and is Headmaster of Hogwarts. Dumbledore is equally surprised to find that Lily has the same green eyes that his late wife had. I know it's a stretch... LOL it's just a theory of ours! :) Lauri From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 26 16:40:52 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 16:40:52 -0000 Subject: Why Spying!Snape won't happen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brassgryphon" wrote: Snape is a teacher at > Dumbledore's school and is quite literally serving "that champion of Mudbloods and commoners". I doubt Snape would be able, or even supposedly able, to get around that. Plus, there's more of his > background on the way. He could have blanched for any number of reasons. Finally, even when the Dark Mark began to appear on his arm, he said that he would remain at Hogwarts. Obviously, he "knew what he must do" by then as well. So no, the obvious theory probably won't carry.<< No? But Voldemort took Pettigrew back, and Peter was suspected of having betrayed his master too. Peter also spent years under the protection of the Weasley family, noted supporters of the Ministry and champions of Muggles and Muggleborns. How *was* Peter able to convince his master that he hadn't betrayed him, anyway? Perhaps Voldemort believed him because Voldemort thinks he always *knows* when people are lying to him. If Snape has a way to defeat that power, and it's hard to see how he could have ever been a successful spy if he hasn't, then Voldemort will think he can believe whatever Snape tells him. I can't agree with your interpretation of Snape's speech to Karkaroff. To whom was Snape going to make Karkaroff's excuses, if not Voldemort? If, that is, we can believe what Snape says at all. There's a very strong hint from the Sphinx that spies don't tell the truth. Pippin From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 26 16:45:10 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030526164510.97849.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58675 --- cello_siok wrote: > Do you think to be a DADA professor, that person > must know how to do > dark arts? I think my grammer is wrong. What I mean > was the person > who teaches DADA also know how to perform dark arts. > Do you think it > is logical? Snape knows a lot of dark arts and he > wanted that job > badly (if it's true)but Dumbledore puts him as > potion professor. > > "cello_siok" ME: I would think that a competent wizard who knows enough about the dark arts to teach it, would pretty much automatically know at least somewhat how to use them. Also, I liked your comment about Snape (if it's true...) It's possible he does really want that DADA job but there has never been ANYTHING in any of the books to indicate he does except student rumors. Snape seems to be quite a magnet for unfounded student rumors so that's no guarentee those rumors are true. It's quite possible he has other priorities. Huggs Becky > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From emeleel at juno.com Mon May 26 16:50:36 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:50:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice Message-ID: <20030526.115038.-515665.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58676 On Sun, 25 May 2003 23:29:42 EDT rayheuer3 at aol.com writes: > Harry takes risks, yes. But with the sure and certain knowledge > that whatever ills may befall him will be set right. Which means he > doesn't really "risk" anything. Me, Melanie: BUT. Don't forget, Harry did not grow up in the WW. He's having to be constantly reminded or told about things that most people in the WW already know and take for granted. In a tense situation, someone who's already familiar with magical healing *might* think, "oh well, if I get hurt I'll just go get it healed" but I don't think Harry has lived in the WW long enough for that to be an instant thought for him. I don't think he's ever gone into a situation with "sure and certain knowledge" about getting healed from whatever hurts him. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From LeiaOS at aol.com Mon May 26 16:52:46 2003 From: LeiaOS at aol.com (LeiaOS at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:52:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. Message-ID: <126.2a38d26b.2c03a05e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58677 In a message dated 5/26/2003 11:46:30 AM Central Standard Time, runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com writes: > Snape seems to be quite a magnet for unfounded student > rumors so that's no guarentee those rumors are true. > It's quite possible he has other priorities. One thought I'd had on this, is that if Snape is planning on ever having to go back to the DE and spy, he may WANT those rumors to continue and do what he can to push them forward. What better way to TEACH the Dark Arts than to pretend to teach how to defend against them, because students can't learn to defend themselves against something they don't understand. So, even if Snape's priorities are elsewhere, he may have started those rumors himself, knowing they would continue on, figuring that it would look good should he have to return to Voldemort's fold. ~Sabrina~ 'I say to you all, once again- in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.' ~Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 26 16:52:51 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Peter & the D.E.'s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030526165251.25494.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58678 Concerning comments I've heard several times about Peter Pettigrew being allowed back despite the fact that the D.E.'s thought he betrayed Voldemort, I think that is a total none issue. Because Voldemort probably never thought that. There was no way he could have blamed what happened to him on Peter because Peter help him find the Potters. So when Pettigrew ran back and found Voldemort, if Voldmort says he didn't betray them, I don't think any of the Dark Eaters would need convincing. Of course Lord voldmort has nothing but contempt for "wormtail" but I think the idea of betrayal was never an issue with Voldmort or the DE's (at least once he was back at Voldmort's side) Huggs Becky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon May 26 17:14:13 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:14:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts Message-ID: <11f.2214cb7b.2c03a565@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58679 odilefalaise at yahoo.com writes: > btw, is "Baron" a British title? I was thinking that > it is more German, as in "The Red Baron" that Snoopy > and others fought in WWI. If so, then is the Bloody > Baron even English? "Baron" is indeed an English title. The "Red Baron", at least the real one, Manfred von Richtoffen, was a "Freiherr" a fairly low rank of German nobility. The English press dubbed him a "Baron", using an equivalent British title. The "Red" came from his plane, which was painted blood red. He was also sometimes referred to as the "Bloody Baron". -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Mon May 26 16:13:43 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 16:13:43 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58680 Andrea wrote: > Actually, no. In other words, it is illegal to kill someone with > Avada > Kedavra. There are still plenty of other ways someone could > be killed; it's only that one spell that is outlawed. And > incidentally, during the 1st Voldie War and its aftermath, Aurors > *were* authorized to use the Unforgivables. So just like in the > Muggle world, the WW considers it illegal to kill...except in > certain circumstances and with certain spells. Joe wrote Okay, I realize that there is nothing in canon whatsoever to back me up here, but...I'm going to push ahead and insist (forgive me, I'm stubborn) that it is illegal to kill someone *with magic* in the WW (except under rare circumstances...Crouch had basically imposed martial law on the WW). I (PK) reply: I believe Andrea's point was that, indeed, you /can't/ say, based on canon, that the wizarding world somehow has a higher moral ground because they outlaw one spell whose sole purpose is to kill, especially when A. there are other ways to kill and B. that spell has previously been legally authorized and is not as "Unforgivable" as it sounds. You might make the argument on other grounds, but the illegality of the Killing Curse Avada Kedavra is insufficient. You can insist all you want, but... well, not to be rude, but "illegal to kill someone *with magic*... except under rare circumstances" is actually even /less/ restrictive than its being, in general, illegal to kill people. I would personally say, and I'd ground this on the overall parallels between magic and Muggle society, that in order to function efficiently if for no other reason the Wizarding World outlaws killing people with magic OR nonmagical means, with a confirmed exception for line-of-duty and (I believe) a probable one for self defence. I'd also say that the three Unforgivables are classed that way and given exceptionally harsh penalties because they aren't considered to have any other purpose than the violation of another person in an extreme way -- but whatever curse Sirius was believed to have used and Pettigrew actually did use on a street full of Muggles, it definitely killed people, was believed to have killed a wizard, and apparently carried a heavy (life?) sentence without any sign of having been Avada Kedavra. > Crouch-As-Moody mentioned illegal curses, the three worst of which > were the Unforgiveables. The results of the Unforgiveables, as you > know, are control, torture, and murder. This implies that there are > a fair amount of outlawed curses, but only the three that produce > those results are labeled Unforgiveable. If there were other spells > that accomplished these same things, would they not be in the same > place as the others? Not necessarily, if they're milder, or the same result is not inevitable, or they have been found to be more commonly expedient. This is not, of course, to say that they aren't illegal when they do produce the same result -- I would, as I said, imagine that under most circumstances if you manage to kill someone without using AK, you're still in trouble! Examples: Death: The disarming spell, Expelliarmus, can if applied strongly enough fling someone back against a wall hard enough to knock them out and cause a nosebleed. (Cf. Snape, in the Shrieking Shack. I'm sure there's an argument that he faked unconsciousness, but he was also apparently thrown back with enough force to make it plausible.) Could it crack someone's skull? Could it fling a disarmed wizard back onto a sharp object? Over a cliff? If so, would it be /inevitable/ that their innate magic would kick in and save them? Neville bounced when he was dropped out the window, but he did get hurt when he fell off his broomstick. It may be difficult to kill a wizard through impact or stabbing, but I'm inclined to think it's possible. Pettigrew's spell -- did not actually kill a wizard, but obviously people (however hysterical) who were familiar with magic thought it possible that one could both blow up the street and kill a wizard. Both of these would be examples of spells which are not illegal in general but are capable of having the result of death. Presumably killing someone with them is still illegal, but they could produce the result of Avada Kedavra without being, generally speaking, Unforgivable. (Possibly, however, the difference is that it's possible/easier to block these? Worse to kill someone if they don't have even a theoretical chance to defend themselves?) Torture: I would be surprised if there's another spell that causes quite the same intense anguish as Cruciatus, but... oh, let's see. What might be the effects of prolonged Rictusempra? I'm fairly certain tickling has been used as torture, though I can't remember my source. This is, I confess, a weaker example. Control: Veritaserum is strictly regulated, but it is not fully illegal and it /does/ exert control, albeit a very specific type of control, over the individual to whom it's administered. Not the same result as Imperius, but a partial one, and it's legal (under appropriate circumstances) because it is useful. Of course, it's always possible that I'm trying to apply logic where it doesn't belong. ;) PK From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Mon May 26 16:20:01 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:20:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. Message-ID: <44.318e4e38.2c0398b1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58681 DADA position goes to anyone who is willing to do it. Its cursed apparently so no one wants it. As Snape is good at Potions Dumbledore would like him to stay there and even so, Snape isnt so sharp with DADA since he told Harrys class the wrong information about the origins of a Kelpie. Does Snape really want that job anyway? Its just rumors. Thats what I think. I think JK has the characters saying that in the first year so we are suspicious of Snape being evil: and it worked. Lupin doesnt perform dark arts, and neither does Lockhart (but thats because he doesnt have the ability to), Moody doesnt do dark arts so really, I dont think they do need to know the dark arts. If you look at their lessons there is no dark magic going on (only Crouchs forbidden curses but those are banned and illegal, he shouldnt have done it). The class get taught DEFENSE against the dark arts and thats exactly what it is. Thats what I think anyway Loadsa love Nic xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 26 17:31:12 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. In-Reply-To: <44.318e4e38.2c0398b1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030526173112.90461.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58682 CareALotsClouds at aol.com wrote: DADA position goes to anyone who is willing to do it. Its cursed apparently so no one wants it. As Snape is good at Potions Dumbledore would like him to stay there and even so, Snape isnt so sharp with DADA since he told Harrys class the wrong information about the origins of a Kelpie. Does Snape really want that job anyway? Its just rumors. Thats what I think. I think JK has the characters saying that in the first year so we are suspicious of Snape being evil: and it worked. Lupin doesnt perform dark arts, and neither does Lockhart (but thats because he doesnt have the ability to), Moody doesnt do dark arts so really, I dont think they do need to know the dark arts. If you look at their lessons there is no dark magic going on (only Crouchs forbidden curses but those are banned and illegal, he shouldnt have done it). The class get taught DEFENSE against the dark arts and thats exactly what it is. Thats what I think anyway Loadsa love Nic xx BECKY: I don't quite agree with you Nic. Your right that people like Lupin and Moody don't do the dark arts. But the question was, do they know HOW to do them? If your a good wizard and you know enough about the dark arts to defend against it, I think you must be able to perform at least some of them if you so had a mind to. I mean just because I've never shot anybody or ever had any desire to (being the sweet, pacifistic girl I am), I still know how to point and shoot a gun if I wanted to! Your post reminded me of something concerning Snape's wanting the DADA position though. Remember when Lockhart got the job? Hagrid mentioned that he was the ONLY person who wanted it! So either Snape (unknownst to Hagrid) applied and was immediately turned down by Dumbledore-which IS possible, OR Snape doesn't want this job nearly as badly as the student's seem to think he does. Huggs Becky [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Mon May 26 17:33:53 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58683 On Mon, 26 May 2003, cello_siok wrote: > Do you think to be a DADA professor, that person must know how to do > dark arts? I think my grammer is wrong. What I mean was the person > who teaches DADA also know how to perform dark arts. Do you think it > is logical? Yes. I think the Dark Arts and the defense against them are really one and the same. Any dark wizard who doesn't bother to learn the counter-curses to his curses or the ways to identify, control and if necessary destroy the dark creatures he may be using is a fool. And learning a counter-curse without knowing about the curse it is supposed to counter is utterly pointless. I think the difference between DADA and a Dark Arts class is one of emphasis -- DADA teaches that Dark Arts are taboo and to be avoided. But the actual subject matter would overlap and great deal between a DADA and Dark Arts curiculum. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Mon May 26 17:41:11 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030526174111.92308.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58684 Without going over all the comments (quite excellent by the way) on this subject, there is another incident in the Shrieking Shack that bares mention. After the kids disarmed Black, he looked up at Harry and said, "Are you going to kill me, Harry?" Now he must have known Harry didn't know how to do the Kadavra spell, and he WAS only 14 years old, but Black certainly didn't discredit the fact that Harry could have magically kill him at that point. So, yea, there are more ways then one to skin a cat (or kill a wizard) then using the unforgiveables. That of course doesn't make killing another witch or wizard legal of course. One last wierd thing on that point. Remember the trick Sirius pulled on Snape? Almost leading him to his death? Remember what the punishment would have been? (Snape mentioned it to Harry). Being expelled from Hogarts. So, either killing somebody isn't as great a crime as it is in our society OR getting expelled must be a terrible, terrible punishment. I guess living in the WW world and not allowed to do magick would be a terrible punishment. For killing Moaning Myrtle, that was Hagrid's only punishment. (yea he was innocent but he was considered quilty by all but Dumbledore). Huggs Becky Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patricia at obscure.org Mon May 26 17:56:24 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58685 Yes, I'm replying to my own post. Tacky, I know. On Mon, 26 May 2003, Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote: > And > learning a counter-curse without knowing about the curse it is supposed to > counter is utterly pointless. If the DADA professors don't know how to cast dark curses, then how would the students ever get a chance to practice their counter-curses? If the DADA class is really worth taking, the students need hands-on experience. Lupin gave his third-years that with the boggart, but what did the higher-level students get? If they are going to be able to protect themselves later in life, the first time they try out a counter-curse had better not be when they are being faced down by an experienced dark wizard who wants to do them harm. So, not only do I think it is essential that DADA professors know how to perform Dark Arts, I even think they are likely to use them *in class* to teach students how to defend against them (much like Crouch!Moody did with the Imperius Curse, which in fact did teach Harry a valuable lesson in how to resist it). ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From yellows at aol.com Mon May 26 18:47:16 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:47:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. Message-ID: <5149BF00.5FC7BCEA.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58686 In a message dated 5/26/2003 8:11:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, cello_siok at yahoo.com writes: > Snape knows a lot of dark arts and he wanted that job > badly (if it's true)but Dumbledore puts him as potion > professor. I was of the opinion that a professor was expected to have some working knowledge of the Dark Arts before teaching DADA, but, for some reason, faculty at Hogwarts has been a bit lax in its hiring for this position. Also, with Trelawney, who doesn't seem to have much exceptional ability in fortune telling except when she doesn't even realize she's doing it. But my real question is -- *why* doesn't Snape get that job? Is it because he's so good at his current position that nobody could replace him? Does Dumbledore just not take DADA as seriously as the other classes? I can see the rumor idea -- that's definitely a possibility. But rumors come from somewhere. Why would the kids get the idea that Snape wants to teach DADA? Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Mon May 26 18:48:05 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:48:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Bloody Baron (was Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts) Message-ID: <26F5CC6E.22F8BBF7.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58687 In a message dated 5/26/2003 8:18:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, Karen writes: <> Is it possible that he saved a unicorn, not killed one? What if his name is completely misleading, and he actually died trying to save something, not trying to kill at all? No canon here -- just posing the question for fun thought. :) Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Mon May 26 18:50:36 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:50:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red-haired Gryffindors Message-ID: <65D3C194.554BCDEE.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58688 In a message dated 5/25/2003 9:03:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, jodel writes: > 'Gruffydd is a Welsh name, a varient form of Griffin ... They were very > literal in the old days, ... 'Griffin' also means the same thing as the Celtic > 'Griffith' and the Greek 'Rufus'... They all mean 'red-haired'." > > So we have Godric "Gryffindor" which might just possibly have been a simple > "name-by-physical-trait" way of calling him Godric the > re-headed. That's very interesting. What hair colors would the others have had, then? I see Slytherin as a blond -- probably because of the Malfoys. But is there any textual evidence for this? How about Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw? Brown and Black, respectively? Those are the colors I always associated with those names. Anyone else have a thought? I also wonder if the hair color really does matter more than we know, and that's why the sorting is done by a hat. Why not a cloak or a necklace or a goblet or any other magical object? Other than reading students' minds, which is the most obvious reason for the hat, what if hair color provides real symbolism that reflects your inner nature? Brief Chronicles From jodel at aol.com Mon May 26 19:33:46 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:33:46 EDT Subject: Petunia is a *Squib* Message-ID: <102.2e6370eb.2c03c61a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58689 LH writes: > The Petunia is a squib theory is widely held.? The only way it makes sense > though, as squibs are quite rare, and obviously Petunia takes great pains to > distance herself from the wizarding world, is that at least one of her and > Lily's parents were indeed a witch or wizard > Or it depends upon one's deffinition of "Squib". The common deffinition is that a Squib is the non-magical offspring of magical parents. That is the deffinition that we are told, and the one that is recognized within the wizarding world. By this criterion there is no way that Petunia can be a Squib unless her parents were known to be magical. And such Squibs are indeed rare, since something has gone seriously wrong in their inheritance of magic in order for them to occur. (Magic, once present in a bloodline tends to perpetuate itself.) But common deffinitions are not necessarily accurate in biological terms. If a broader deffinition of a Squib as a person without enough inherent magic to register as magical is also true, even if such examples cannot be readilly observed, then it is likely that Squibs are not rare at all. By this criterion there must be as many Squibs as there are wizards. But these Squibs are not the offspring of magical parents. They and their parents all apear to be ordinary Muggles. They do have magic in their bloodlines inhereted from a magical ancestor and passed down for generations unknown. They just do not have enough magic to register as magical themselves. If this is the case, and several thousand undocumented Muggle-born Squibs are living undetected among the Muggle populace, then Petunia is almost certainly one of them, since it is clear that both of her parents must have been Muggle-born Squibs, or they would be unlikely to have been able to produce a witch daughter. In fact if this view of the matter is true, then we have a simple explanation for ALL of the Muggle-born witches and wizards (25% of any average Hogwarts year's enrollment) who have occured in families where there is now known magical connection. The connection is actually there -- but too far back to have been noted. The question is whether you accept the broader deffinition, which is not mentioned in canon, but is a fairly elementary deduction drawn from basic laws of inheritance as it is ovserved in Muggle science, and has yet to be contradicted by any canon statement from anyone who might be supposed to know what they are talking about. My own supposition is that Petunia and her parents (and Dudley) are/were undocumented Muggle-born Squibs, but that somewhere in the previous generation or three there had been another Muggle-born witch or wizard, so that the Evens parents did *know* that magic existed (because of Auntie Rose or Great-Uncle Harry) and were delighted when their daughter Lily turned out to have inherited it, even though they knew that they and their other daughter were to all intents ordinary Muggles. Much less dramatic, but a lot easier to account for all parties' reactions. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Mon May 26 19:33:48 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:33:48 EDT Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye Message-ID: <48.1d3f023c.2c03c61c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58690 Ann writes: > I didn't come across any speculation similar to the one I've had, which is > that Harry's blood now makes Voldemort a relative (in the sense of having the > same bloodline, being a blood relative, blood brother, etc.) > I am sure that I have refered to this exact possibility, in one of my comparitively recent posts. It was prior to the Changeling Hypothisis posts, however. (Found it. It was posted April 15.) I didn't go into detail, just noted the paradox. Of course, the "protection" is a fairly dicy issue. Harry, after all, is "protected" as long as he is "with" the Dursleys. But there is nothing that we've seen that protects him *from* the Dursleys... -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artsylynda at aol.com Mon May 26 20:52:29 2003 From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 16:52:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] all eyes Message-ID: <7C84F972.2B107EAB.0AE51F07@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58691 In a message dated 5/26/2003 8:27:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > As a fan of Harry Potter I have read the books several times each. The more I read them the more things I notice. One of the things I?ve noticed this time is that J.K. Rowling often describes the color of character?s eyes, more so than other authors do. Do you think she does that so we can visualize the character or do you think there's something more to it? Perhaps the color of a character?s eyes may be a symbol or an > allusion to something else. Let me know what you think. > > Thanks in advance, > > Karen I was just pondering the same thing. Harry's eyes are green, V.'s are red. Harry's wand shoots red sparks, V.'s shoots green (during the AK curse, anyway). When the two color streams join, they become gold, which doesn't follow color theory either in light or painting -- red and green are complimentary colors (opposite each other on the color wheel), but the rest of the color theories are beyond my knowledge (all colors of light combined creates white light, all colors of paint combined creates mud, a nearly black brown). I've been intrigued with this concept for a while now, that Harry and V have "complimentary" (opposite) color eyes, and their wands shoot colors the opposite of their eye color. Maybe it's just an author's story-telling device, or maybe, given JKR's tendency to plant clues, it's important. I'll be interested to read what those of you who are better theorists than I think of this idea. Lynda From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Mon May 26 21:13:00 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red-haired Gryffindors In-Reply-To: <65D3C194.554BCDEE.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030526211300.34361.qmail@web13108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58692 Brief Chronicles wrote: <<>> Me (Odile): Interesting idea - I love how symbolism is used in this way. However... Harry Potter himself has black hair; not only that, but Dean Thomas and Lee Jordan are both Gryffindors as well, and they both have black hair (being black). So, while maybe hair color was significant for the founders of Hogwarts, I do not think that it has any significance as far as the students go. IMO, it seems as though the Sorting Hat reads their minds. ^_^ From a4annielauss at msn.com Mon May 26 21:29:24 2003 From: a4annielauss at msn.com (rhosyn4u) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:29:24 -0000 Subject: Why Spying!Snape won't happen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > No? But Voldemort took Pettigrew back, and Peter was > suspected of having betrayed his master too. Peter also spent > years under the protection of the Weasley family, noted > supporters of the Ministry and champions of Muggles and > Muggleborns. > > How *was* Peter able to convince his master that he hadn't > betrayed him, anyway? Perhaps Voldemort believed him > because Voldemort thinks he always *knows* when people are > lying to him. If Snape has a way to defeat that power, and it's > hard to see how he could have ever been a successful spy if he > hasn't, then Voldemort will think he can believe whatever Snape > tells him. I agree that Snape's supposed renunciation of Voldemort (who knows if this will turn out to be true or not in the end?) will not necessarily prevent him from turning spy again, and that he must have a way of deflecting Volemort's "lie-radar." On the other hand, something which may contradict it is Voldemort's statement in GoF that "One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever... he will be killed, of course" (651). I had always assumed he was referring to Karkaroff and Snape, respectively. On the OTHER other hand (I have three, apparently), even if this were so, Snape and Dumbledore have no way of knowing this, unless Harry told/tells them. All that aside, if Snape does turn spy again, I think it says something about his character. Pettigrew was subjected to all sorts of punishment for his disloyalty, and Avery received the Cruciatus curse. Snape cannot expect not to be severely punished if he does "return" to Voldemort. > I can't agree with your interpretation of Snape's speech to > Karkaroff. To whom was Snape going to make Karkaroff's > excuses, if not Voldemort? I respectfully disagree. As Karkaroff was intending to flee, meaning he would disappear in the middle of the Tri-Wizard tournament, Snape could very plausibly have meant he would make his excuses to Dumbledore/Maxime/WW in general. ~rhosyn =) a humble newbie From a4annielauss at msn.com Mon May 26 21:42:46 2003 From: a4annielauss at msn.com (rhosyn4u) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:42:46 -0000 Subject: Tom, Harry... Dick? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58694 A funny little idea struck me earlier today and I've been thinking about it since. You know that expression, "Every Tom, Dick, and Harry?" Well, we have a Harry and a Tom (Riddle), who are arguably the two most important characters in the series. We are yet without a Dick. My point is, if ever a character does with the name Richard or any derivative thereof, I believe this will be a clue that that character will play an extremely pivotal role in the series. Harry and Tom are connected in countless ways (wands, powers, looks, etc.) and the novels could be described as a sequence of increasingly intense conflicts between the two, plausibly leading to a final, resolving show-down which will be the climax of the series. According to my theory, "Dick" would probably play a large part in their ongoing battle, and share their similar qualities and/or be a balance between their dissimilar qualities. I know, I know, it's a little far-fetched, but in my defense, J.K.R. tends to make good use of the meanings/associations attached to her characters' names; see any of the many Harry Potter Encyclopedia- type websites if you don't know what I'm talking about. So there's my funny little idea. What say you? ~Rhosyn, a humble newbie delighted by the elevated discussion here at HPfGU From emeleel at juno.com Mon May 26 22:14:41 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 17:14:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) Message-ID: <20030526.171722.-515665.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58695 On Mon, 26 May 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Becky Walkden writes: > One last wierd thing on that point. Remember the trick Sirius > pulled on Snape? Almost leading him to his death? Remember what > the punishment would have been? (Snape mentioned it to Harry). > Being expelled from Hogarts. So, either killing somebody isn't as > great a crime as it is in our society OR getting expelled must be a > terrible, terrible punishment. I guess living in the WW world and > not allowed to do magick would be a terrible punishment. For > killing Moaning Myrtle, that was Hagrid's only punishment. (yea he > was innocent but he was considered quilty by all but Dumbledore). > Huggs Becky And don't forget Hermoine's infamous line after the Trio first met Fluffy, along the lines of, "You'll get us killed. Or worse, expelled!" LOL I always thought of that as being Highly Academic Hermoine freaking at the idea of *gasp* getting thrown out of school - it *would* be a fate worse than death for her. But I think you may be on to something. Getting expelled must be a really bad punishment. I suppose it's lucky Hagrid is such a gentle soul or he might have really become a problem after being expelled. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Mon May 26 22:17:21 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 17:17:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. Message-ID: <20030526.171722.-515665.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58696 On Mon, 26 May 2003 12:20:01 EDT CareALotsClouds at aol.com writes: > Lupin doesnt perform dark arts, and neither does Lockhart (but thats > because he doesnt have the ability to), Moody doesnt do dark arts so really, > I dont think they do need to know the dark arts. If you look at their > lessons there is no dark magic going on (only Crouchs forbidden curses but those are > banned and illegal, he shouldnt have done it). The class get taught > DEFENSE against the dark arts and thats exactly what it is. No, I think DD really did ask Crouch/Moody to cover those curses in class. Of course, he would never condone teaching the students how to *do* them, but he did want them to learn to defend themselves. The only way to do that is to subject them to those curses in a controlled manner, and I think DD would know this and allow Moody (who he thought was Moody, anyhow) to perform the Curses in class. (Excepting the AK, of course!) I don't see any indication that Crouch/Moody actually taught the children how to perform the Curses, so I don't think he was doing anything illegal at all. Also, even though the real Moody did not use the Curses during the Voldemort years, I think the text implies that he did know how to use them, but he was a good enough person to not succumb to the temptation of using them even for a "good cause". Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Mon May 26 22:17:21 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 17:17:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. Message-ID: <20030526.171953.-515665.3.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58697 On Mon, 26 May 2003 12:20:01 EDT CareALotsClouds at aol.com writes: > Lupin doesnt perform dark arts, and neither does Lockhart (but thats > because he doesnt have the ability to), Moody doesnt do dark arts so really, > I dont think they do need to know the dark arts. If you look at their > lessons there is no dark magic going on (only Crouchs forbidden curses but those are > banned and illegal, he shouldnt have done it). The class get taught > DEFENSE against the dark arts and thats exactly what it is. No, I think DD really did ask Crouch/Moody to cover those curses in class. Of course, he would never condone teaching the students how to *do* them, but he did want them to learn to defend themselves. The only way to do that is to subject them to those curses in a controlled manner, and I think DD would know this and allow Moody (who he thought was Moody, anyhow) to perform the Curses in class. (Excepting the AK, of course!) I don't see any indication that Crouch/Moody actually taught the children how to perform the Curses, so I don't think he was doing anything illegal at all. Also, even though the real Moody did not use the Curses during the Voldemort years, I think the text implies that he did know how to use them, but he was a good enough person to not succumb to the temptation of using them even for a "good cause". Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Mon May 26 22:14:41 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 17:14:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) Message-ID: <20030526.171953.-515665.2.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58698 On Mon, 26 May 2003 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Becky Walkden writes: > One last wierd thing on that point. Remember the trick Sirius > pulled on Snape? Almost leading him to his death? Remember what > the punishment would have been? (Snape mentioned it to Harry). > Being expelled from Hogarts. So, either killing somebody isn't as > great a crime as it is in our society OR getting expelled must be a > terrible, terrible punishment. I guess living in the WW world and > not allowed to do magick would be a terrible punishment. For > killing Moaning Myrtle, that was Hagrid's only punishment. (yea he > was innocent but he was considered quilty by all but Dumbledore). > Huggs Becky And don't forget Hermoine's infamous line after the Trio first met Fluffy, along the lines of, "You'll get us killed. Or worse, expelled!" LOL I always thought of that as being Highly Academic Hermoine freaking at the idea of *gasp* getting thrown out of school - it *would* be a fate worse than death for her. But I think you may be on to something. Getting expelled must be a really bad punishment. I suppose it's lucky Hagrid is such a gentle soul or he might have really become a problem after being expelled. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From sushi at societyhappens.com Tue May 27 00:25:44 2003 From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:25:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom, Harry... Dick? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030526192326.038b7370@mail.societyhappens.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58699 Rhosyn wrote: >A funny little idea struck me earlier today and I've been thinking >about it since. You know that expression, "Every Tom, Dick, and >Harry?" Well, we have a Harry and a Tom (Riddle), who are arguably >the two most important characters in the series. We are yet without >a Dick. My point is, if ever a character does with the name Richard >or any derivative thereof, I believe this will be a clue that that >character will play an extremely pivotal role in the series. At the risk of being crude, we've already got a Peter. Since Peter is British slang for *ahem*, and Dick is American slang for *ahem*, *technically* you could make the case that it's Wormtail. He's significant. Very significant. And he's got the weird cross-generational connection for Harry and Tom/Voldie. Hence... Sushi, sliding back into her lurker hole now before this gets any sillier [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Tue May 27 01:44:32 2003 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 01:44:32 -0000 Subject: Comments on Eyes In-Reply-To: <7C84F972.2B107EAB.0AE51F07@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58700 There have been some recent posts concerning the color of ones eyes in the HP world. Lynda (see end of post) has mentioned that red and green (Voldy and Harry) are opposites on the color wheel. If JKR knew this, it is obviously symbolic for the opposite actions, intentions, characters etc of Voldy and Harry. She has also mentioned that out of Harry's wand there came red sparks. This is true, and can be seen as a color coming out of Harry's wand, because he was at the time not performing any spell. However, the green "sparks" out of Voldy's wand when he AK-ed is not characteristic to Voldy, but to the AK curse. So this cannot be set out against Harry's red sparks. The symbolic Slyth/Gryff of the colors both Harry and Voldy seem to distribute or have is widely known and debated. They seem to have many things alike, though also many things different. I would like to add that the red eyes Voldy has in GoF are in my opinion not his eyes ? well, they are his eyes, but not from birth. I believe that his eyes turned red when he underwent the horrific transformations to become immortal. Maybe only because of the bone, flesh and blood potions, but maybe as a whole from all of his other * ahem * experiments. It's kinda like in a horror movie when the person's eyes turn red right before he turns into a monster. I do not know whether Voldy's eyes are described as a certain color, back when he was Tom Marvolo Riddle. But if they were red I'm sure Harry would have noticed it, don't you? I think his eyes are either gray or black, or dark brown. The reference to Harry's eyes in the singing Valentine IMHO is just simply because his eyes are a strong characteristic of his. You can't help but notice his green eyes. That's it. Nic said: It's evident that there is something important about Harry having his Mothers green eyes, but everybody elses? I agree that the connection with his mother is important somehow. Nic again said: I think JK does this to help us visualise but also to tell us about the character, for example: Malfoy has cold gray eyes which represents his personality. Whilst Dumbledores twinkle and Snapes are a bottomless pit of black. Voldemorts are a red gleaming menace and Olivanders are described as quite scary. It gives us an immediate impression of the character introduced I think. I agree with you completely, that's what I'm trying to say. Though Ollivander's eyes are scary because he has the whole mad scientist who knows more than you even think he does thing going on IMO. I personally think that JKR does have certain intentions with her eye colors, though not in the way most people think. I believe she just makes people have certain eye color to express their personality. You must admit that certain color eyes does give you a certain feel of a person. I can't explain it more really. I also think that JKR does think eyes are important/have certain magical qualities, though that their color is a deciding factor in stuff I think is a little uncharacteristic of JKR as she does the whole choices over genetics stuff. But I don't rule it out, it is fairly possible. Anyway, just thought I'd add some comments to the recent discussions. Have a nice day, *Lara*. Lynda said: > I was just pondering the same thing. Harry's eyes are green, V.'s are red. Harry's wand shoots red sparks, V.'s shoots green (during the AK curse, anyway). When the two color streams join, they become gold, which doesn't follow color theory either in light or painting -- red and green are complimentary colors (opposite each other on the color wheel), but the rest of the color theories are beyond my knowledge (all colors of light combined creates white light, all colors of paint combined creates mud, a nearly black brown). I've been intrigued with this concept for a while now, that Harry and V have "complimentary" (opposite) color eyes, and their wands shoot colors the opposite of their eye color. Maybe it's just an author's story-telling device, or maybe, given JKR's tendency to plant clues, it's important. I'll be interested to read what those of you who are better theorists than I think of this idea. > > Lynda From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue May 27 01:46:59 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:46:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. References: <5149BF00.5FC7BCEA.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <001301c323f1$dda2f280$6cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58701 Brief Chronicles wrote: > > But my real question is -- *why* doesn't Snape get that job? Is it because he's so good at his current position that nobody could replace him? Does Dumbledore just not take DADA as seriously as the other classes? I can see the rumor idea -- that's definitely a possibility. But rumors come from somewhere. Why would the kids get the idea that Snape wants to teach DADA? I do think that Snape wanting to teach DADA is a rumor. I did somewhat post on this about a week ago or so on why people think he wants to teach that subject. I am going to cut and paste it in here, as I am too lazy to go look up the post number on yahoo, but have it in my saved mail. It was posted on May 22 under the subject heading: McGonagal and l was Re: Missing 24 hours. *begin cut/paste* On a related theme, I, like many of you, have noticed that when there is a crisis at the school, three teachers usually seem to turn up: DD, McGonagall, and Snape. I have already discussed DD's and MM's role, but then there is SS. I see him as kind of the school security guard. He turns up when something nefarious may perhaps have occured. The rumor floats around Hogwarts that Snape wants the DADA job, but I say that instead of *teaching* DADA, he *is* the one in charge of making sure the school is defended against the Dark Arts. This would make sense since he would probably be the best one to judge whether they had been used and how connected to V a situation may be. Not saying DD is not capable of doing this, but having Snape on the scene ensures that, if one of them misses the clue, the other will catch it. Also probably why Snape is not afraid to speak up at the slightest thing. Best example is in PoA when the students have been moved to the Great Hall for the night, and Snape warns DD that Lupin might be letting Sirius into the school. Although he has been overruled when it comes to appointing Lupin as a teacher, he feels that Lupin is a security risk for the reason I have mentioned before, and therefore it is his duty to point this out, even though DD is already aware of it, in light of the new incident (Sirius slashing paintings). Yeah, some of his reasoning/motives behind this was because he wants Lupin out for his own reasons, but I feel he was also performing his duty as he saw it as Hogwarts Security Officer, for want of a better term. Leader, Administrator, and Security Officer. I've been calling these three the Hogwarts Crisis Control Team for awhile now (sometimes Crisis Defense Team instead, but usually the first). *end cut/paste* My reason for reposting this segment is to illustrate the role I see for Snape, and thus demonstrate how a student years ago could have overheard a tiny portion of a conversation between Snape and Dumbledore where something was mentioned about Snape defending against the Dark Arts. That conversation would have been about Snape defending the *school* and its students from the Dark Arts, but the eavesdropper, hearing it out of context, misunderstood it and took it to mean they were discussing Snape wanting the DADA job. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue May 27 02:04:34 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:04:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) References: Message-ID: <001d01c323f4$5289f0b0$6cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58702 Persesphone_kore wrote: > I would personally say, and I'd ground this on the overall parallels > between magic and Muggle society, that in order to function > efficiently if for no other reason the Wizarding World outlaws killing > people with magic OR nonmagical means, with a confirmed exception for > line-of-duty and (I believe) a probable one for self defence. I'd also > say that the three Unforgivables are classed that way and given > exceptionally harsh penalties because they aren't considered to have > any other purpose than the violation of another person in an extreme > way -- but whatever curse Sirius was believed to have used and > Pettigrew actually did use on a street full of Muggles, it definitely > killed people, was believed to have killed a wizard, and apparently > carried a heavy (life?) sentence without any sign of having been Avada > Kedavra. But keep in mind, Sirius didn't get a life sentence (without a trial, I might add) based solely on blowing up a street of Muggles and presumably another wizard. He got the life sentence for being a DE, and on top of that, the DE who betrayed the Potters to Voldemort. The killing of 13 people with a single curse was included in there, but was not by itself what got him a life sentence. Mainly, that part of it just seemed to be used to demonstrate just how evil he was. "Yeah, it's obvious that Sirius Black guy is evil. He blew up a street full of Muggles and another wizard in broad daylight! It's obvious he didn't care about anybody but himself." Granted, this is the part of the story the general public knows, and they believe this is why he got the life sentence, but they don't know the whole story. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From amani at charter.net Tue May 27 02:27:53 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:27:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts References: <20030526131859.56032.qmail@web40513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006101c323f7$93c28940$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58703 tepmurt9981 said, ?What if the Baron was stabbed to death? He's covered in the stuff as a ghost, so it would make sense that he was covered in it when he died).? Karen: The blood that the Baron is covered with is silver blood. Therefore, I don?t believe it is his. The only silver blood I know of is that of an unicorn. There could be other things that have silver blood that we don?t know about, but I think that the blood on him is unicorn blood. Which means he must have killed a unicorn - a horrible crime. I think that the first definition tepmurt9981 gave was more accurate in describing the Bloody Baron, " addicted to bloodshed, bloodthirsty, cruel; tainted with crimes of blood, blood-guilty. " But /all/ of the ghost is silvery-grey. It would be impossible to tell silver blood from red blood when you're a ghost. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Tue May 27 02:38:31 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 02:38:31 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) In-Reply-To: <001d01c323f4$5289f0b0$6cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58704 Well, after having so many fine people contradict me, I think it's high time I contradict myself :-D...I've been rereading CoS, and found this quote from Lockhart regarding Mrs. Norris' petrification "It was definitely a curse that killer her - probably the Transmogrifian Torture - I've seen it used many times, so unlucky I wasn't here there, I know the very countercurse..." (CoS, American Text page 141). So here we have a spell, not listed as an Unforgiveable, that A)Tortures and B)Kills. And as we all know, Lockhart is a big name dropper. He can tell you quite a bit about wizarding, just from stuff he's picked up by putting into his books, even though he's dismal at wizarding himself. I highly doubt he would have mentioned a Transmogrifian Torture, especially in front of Dumbledore, if there wasn't such a thing. He likely recognized the symptoms from something he'd been told by a wizard/witch whose story he had stolen for a book. - Joe S. From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 27 03:48:29 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 03:48:29 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) In-Reply-To: <20030526174111.92308.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > One last wierd thing on that point. Remember the trick Sirius pulled on Snape? Almost leading him to his death? Remember what the punishment would have been? (Snape mentioned it to Harry). Being expelled from Hogarts. So, either killing somebody isn't as great a crime as it is in our society OR getting expelled must be a terrible, terrible punishment. I guess living in the WW world and not allowed to do magick would be a terrible punishment. For killing Moaning Myrtle, that was Hagrid's only punishment. (yea he was innocent but he was considered quilty by all but Dumbledore). Huggs Becky Annemehr: I was paging through CoS today, and I found this from Ch. 15, "Aragog" [Harry speaking first]: |"They think, up at the school, that Hagrid's been setting a -- a -- |something on students. They've taken him to Azkaban." | |Aragog clicked his pincers furiously, and all around the hollow the |sound was echoed by the crowd of spiders; it was like applause, |except applause didn't usually make Harry feel sick with fear. | |"But that was years ago," said Aragog fretfully. "Years and years |ago. I remember it well. That's why they made him leave the school. |They believed /I/ was the monster that dwells in what they call the |Chamber of Secrets. They thought that Hagrid had opened the Chamber |and set me free."" Harry says "They've taken him to Azkaban," and Aragog replies "But that was years ago." Can Aragog really mean that Hagrid, at about age fourteen, was put into Azkaban, or is he just being imprecise? If you look in the previous chapter, when Fudge arrives to take Hagrid away, Hagrid is clearly terrified as if he feared going *back* to Azkaban; yet in PoA, Ern (the Knight Bus driver) can't even stand to talk about dementors, and he'd never been to Azkaban. So, besides Harry's conversation with Aragog, there aren't any real clues. Still, I think that after Hagrid was expelled, he was sent to the prison, at least at first, and Dumbledore helped get him out (it would certainly go far to help explain Hagrid's devotion to him). And I think that getting expelled from Hogwarts is quite a terrible punishment, I just don't think it was Hagrid's only punishment. Annemehr From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Tue May 27 04:02:20 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 00:02:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) Message-ID: <1c1.a2555da.2c043d4c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58706 In a message dated 5/26/2003 11:50:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, annemehr at yahoo.com writes: > Annemehr: > I was paging through CoS today, and I found this from Ch. 15, > "Aragog" [Harry speaking first]: > > |"They think, up at the school, that Hagrid's been setting a -- a -- > |something on students. They've taken him to Azkaban." > | > |Aragog clicked his pincers furiously, and all around the hollow the > |sound was echoed by the crowd of spiders; it was like applause, > |except applause didn't usually make Harry feel sick with fear. > | > |"But that was years ago," said Aragog fretfully. "Years and years > |ago. I remember it well. That's why they made him leave the school. > |They believed /I/ was the monster that dwells in what they call the > |Chamber of Secrets. They thought that Hagrid had opened the Chamber > |and set me free."" > > Harry says "They've taken him to Azkaban," and Aragog replies "But > that was years ago." Can Aragog really mean that Hagrid, at about age > fourteen, was put into Azkaban, or is he just being imprecise? True..Aragog says 'But that was years' ago....but later, in the same quote, he says 'that's why they made him leave the school.' That leads me to believe he was talking about the incident, not the punishment. I'm not saying I disagree about him being sent to Azkaban during the first set of attacks. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Tue May 27 04:17:54 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 04:17:54 -0000 Subject: Eyes / Bloody Baron / Dick Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58707 Karen klekatgirl write: << One of the things I've noticed this time is that J.K. Rowling often describes the color of character's eyes, more so than other authors do. >> Not often enough! She hasn't told us Sirius's or Remus's human eye color. << The blood that the Baron is covered with is silver blood. Therefore, I don't believe it is his. The only silver blood I know of is that of an unicorn. >> It could be unicorn blood. It could be human blood, his own or someone else's -- as Odile and Taryn have pointed out: << But /all/ of the ghost is silvery-grey. It would be impossible to tell silver blood from red blood when you're a ghost. >> Another possibility suggested once is that it *is* silver but is *not* blood ... it is in fact molten lead, based on the ghost of some castle in RL Britain who was killed by being thrown into a vat of molten lead. Something I somehow left out of my previous comment about the Bloody Baron is that the adjective "bloody" doesn't just mean covered with blood, or blood-thirsty, but is also an explective. Odile wrote: << btw, is "Baron" a British title? I was thinking that it is more German, as in "The Red Baron" that Snoopy and others fought in WWI. If so, then is the Bloody Baron even English? >> "Baron" is, as Ray already said, a British title. HOWEVER, it has occured to me that the Bloody Baron might not really be a baron of the peerage. If he's all done up in medieval armor and he bosses everyone around, why wouldn't the students call him "baron" whether or not it's true? In my imagination, he was a wizard who had a big castle and commanded knights and men-at-arms and there is called a baron, regardless whether any monarch granted the title. Sushi wrote: << At the risk of being crude, we've already got a Peter. Since Peter is British slang for *ahem*, and Dick is American slang for *ahem*, *technically* you could make the case that it's Wormtail. He's significant. Very significant. And he's got the weird cross-generational connection for Harry and Tom/Voldie. Hence... >> Someone made that same argument to prove that "Percy" is D (for "Dick") in the theory of Weasleys having alphabetical names ... Arthur, Bill, Charlie, D--, E---, Fred, George ... but it falls apart with Ron anyway. Btw, I agree that we have Tom, we have Harry, surely Dick should be in the story. From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Tue May 27 00:15:24 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 17:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Spying!Snape won't happen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030527001524.18076.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58708 >it is Voldemort's > statement in GoF > that "One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. > One, who I believe > has left me forever... he will be killed, of course" > (651). I had > always assumed he was referring to Karkaroff and > Snape, > respectively. I have come to believe that the one that is too cowardly is Karakoff as well. But for the one that has left forever, the time frames are possible that he refers to Crouch, who has had his soul sucked. The other "most faithful servant" (GOF USpb 651) could mean Snape, if Voldie thinks he is the one silencing Crouch. The last is a bit stretched, but we don't know if Snape has had contact. He has known of Voldemort coming back, but, in my opinion, has been too jumpy thoughout the entire book. Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From potterfan23 at hotmail.com Tue May 27 02:26:42 2003 From: potterfan23 at hotmail.com (Emily F) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:26:42 -0500 Subject: Petunia is a *Squib* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58709 LH said: The Petunia is a squib theory is widely held. Me (Emily): I don't mean to play Devil's Advocate here, but why? I don't understand why this theory is so popular. There are innumerable references in all four books to the Dursleys being Muggles. Many of these references are made by Harry, many by the narrator, and some by people who ought to know! A small sampling of examples: In the narration, CoS, Chapter 1 "The Worst Birthday": "The Dursleys were what wizards called Muggles (not a drop of magical blood in their veins)..." In the narration, PoA, Chapter 1 "Owl Post": "They were Muggles, and they had a very medieval attitude toward magic. Harry's dead parents, who had been a witch and wizard themselves, were never mentioned under the Dursleys' roof." By McGonagall and Hagrid, PS/SS, Chapter 1 "The Boy Who Lived": "Shhh!" hissed Professor McGonagall, "you'll wake the Muggles!" "S-s-sorry," sobbed Hagrid ... "But I c-c-can't stand it - Lily an' James dead - an' poor little Harry off ter live with Muggles - " By Harry, to Voldemort, CoS, Chapter 17 "The Heir of Slytherin": "My common, Muggle-born mother" ... And, my personal favorite, from GoF, Chapter 33 "The Death Eaters": "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father," he hissed softly. "A Muggle and a fool... very like your dear mother." I think he is indeed calling Lily a Muggle, because if he truely hates Muggle-borns so much, it makes sense to me that he would consider them Muggles, refusing to recognize their magical abilities. For example, some groups that preach hate denigrate the objects of their hatred to an almost animal status. Of course, they know these people aren't animals, but they say it anyway, because it exxagerates the difference between the two groups. Naturally, this is just my opinion. :-) The definition of Squib we have thus far is given by Ron in CoS - Chapter 9, "The Writing on the Wall": "A Squib is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magical powers." Since this is the only definition, and therefore the only canon we have to go on, I think it's a bit too presumptuous of us to assume that that's incorrect. (I think this also begs the question of how, without any magical powers, Filch would have success with a Kwikspell course, but that's another topic.) Adding this definition to Petunia's statements in PS/SS (see below), I see plenty of evidence suggesting that Petunia is a Muggle, and I've seen no *canon* suggesting that she is a Squib. >From Chapter 4, "The Keeper of the Keys": "Knew! Of course we knew! How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? Oh, she got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that - that school - and came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily thihs and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" Bottom line, if Petunia is a Squib, then Rowling (the real narrator) has been lying to us all along. And while she may be dodgy and she definitely leads us on, she hasn't lied to us thus far. ...Unless this is a massive plot hole, but after 3 long years, there better not be any! :-) Emily, who wishes we could purchase the HP books on CD ROM, to make searching for these passages so much easier _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jhlupin at hotmail.com Tue May 27 03:25:59 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 03:25:59 -0000 Subject: Petunia is a *Squib* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58710 > LH wrote: > > > > What seems more likely is that either Mum or Pop Evans were > > either witch or wizard and they both made a deliberate decision > > to live as muggles. This is likely to protect a secret that would > > otherwise put their family at great risk. good parts> > > > Valky responded: > I like this theory. I have one question though. Why would wizard kind > who had chosen to leave for the muggle world for the safety of their > descendents, then be pleased that one of the said descendents was > returning, to the apparent danger zone, at the very vulnerable age of > 11. I would imagine that they would prefer Lily not to attend > Hogwarts. LH: The *Evans* felt that their children were at risk because of their bloodline. If their children were to be "muggle born" witches or wizards, the bloodline would be effectively hidden, and therefore the children would be in no danger. It was a specific fear of a specific threat that led to their decision to live as muggles, not a general fear of the dangerous wizarding world. I expect they always intended their children to attend Hogwarts and live life as witch or wizard, without the family baggage. With this sacrifice, and this expectation of a much less dangerous future for their children, having a squib for a daughter is probably a huge disappointment. Sure, they love their daughter, but take her non-magical staus as a reflection of their own lives, their own failings. They probably go through a period of grief like one would imagine, and then acceptance, and they work through the situation and come to terms with it. Then to discover that another daughter had inherited the magical abilities of her parents would give those parents a sense of relief, a sense of knowing their sacrifice was not in vain. They may not have shown any intentionally favoritism, but their relief and joy was obvious to the squib sister, who took it as a rejection. Petunia may not even be aware of her parent's magical abilities, or so her parents may have thought, but I suspect she became aware and took this as a betrayal by her own family. So Lily *Evans* attends Hogwarts, her true surname unknown to even herself. It's possible then that Professor Trelawney's first prediction was that Voldemort would be defeated by the sole heir of two *Founders,* one of whom's bloodline had been hidden. As Voldemort has killed many prior to the Potters, and is likely aware of the threat the Potters pose as the Heirs of GG, I think he (Voldemort) is on a mission to uncover and eliminate all potential dual heirs. He thus recruits PP as a spy in the Potter camp, and the rest we know... LH, almost certainly to be made a fool by the 21st of June. From RedWingsChica at starband.net Tue May 27 03:27:57 2003 From: RedWingsChica at starband.net (Jade Rauenzahn) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:27:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice References: <9f.38d62518.2c02e426@aol.com> Message-ID: <001e01c323ff$fadc4c80$1ea441d8@DONITELLO> No: HPFGUIDX 58711 ----- Original Message ----- From: rayheuer3 at aol.com *snip* >Has Harry ever lost an eye, an ear, a limb, or even a tooth? No. Does Harry >walk with a limp? Does he suffer from shortness of breath? No. So, what >has he sacrificed? *snip* >Like most heroes, he has companions willing to >sacrifice themselves for him. But Harry has yet >to sacrifice anything. *snip* >When Ron sacrificed himself on the chess board in PS/SS, he did so with the >knowledge that he might have been fatally injured. *snip* >Risk does not equal sacrifice. LOSS equals sacrifice, and so far Harry has >never lost anything by his own actions. Sure, Harry has never suffered the loss of an eye or limb, or whatever have you. We're not here to talk about the textbook definition of sacrifice. As we all know, a definition of a word varies from text to written word to individial interpretation. I could throw this definition of the word at you: Sacrifice: Hence, to destroy, surrender, or suffer to be lost, for the sake of obtaining something; - Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary. Lets go back to CoS. Harry was down there with the Basilisk, fighting with all his might - willing to sacrifice his LIFE to try to save Ginny's. He 'suffered to be lost' his very own life for the sake of saving Ginny. He knew he could have died - he was all alone, in a chamber deep down where only one person knew of his location (that person which was blocked from his location, mind you). He could have ran, gone back through the chamber and seen if Ron had moved some of the rocks yet. The Basilisk was blind - surely he could lose the tail if he had tried. The fact that he stayed was a credit - he was willing to sacrifice everything, and that's what the real meaning of the word is here. You say that he has friends who are willing to sacrifice everything and Harry just isn't as good as them. I ask where the accuracy in that is. Your example of Ron and the chess game in PS/SS. Ron didn't sacrifice any more there than Harry did down in that chamber. In fact, one could argue that Harry sacrificed more, because he was inches from death, all alone, where no one would help him. So sure, Harry hasn't actually *sacrificed* anything as far as Webster's dictionary goes, but he was willing and prepared to. That's what sacrifice means here. He sacrificed any self-preservation he had when he faced Voldemort in GoF, or battled against the snake in CoS. If you follow your definition of 'sacrifice' than none of our principals has actually followed through on one. Not Ron, not Hermione, and not Harry. But look at what they have done, what they have put on the line. How could you not call that sacrifice? - Jade Rauenzahn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kim.dawkins at charter.net Tue May 27 04:40:31 2003 From: kim.dawkins at charter.net (Kimberly Dawkins) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:40:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: titles in general In-Reply-To: <194.19a65202.2c02cfea@aol.com> Message-ID: <58E79ADC-8FFD-11D7-8A23-000393827B3E@charter.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58712 On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 09:03 PM, jodel at aol.com wrote: > The scarcity of wizards in general would make for an even greater > scarcety of titled wizards, but the > historical existence of "Sir" Nicolas and the "Baron" is a clear > indication that > such did once exist. > Me: Were *Sir* Nicholas and the Bloody *Baron* wizards in life? Is it required that a ghost was a wizard when alive or can muggles become ghosts? If other type persons can become ghosts, then the fact that Sir Nicholas and the Bloody Baron have titles would not be a good argument that wizards were historically titled in the muggle fashion unless we knew for sure that these two were wizards. Kim (who still has 42 e-mails to read!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From azevedan at yahoo.com Mon May 26 19:59:31 2003 From: azevedan at yahoo.com (azevedan) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:59:31 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: <48.1d3f023c.2c03c61c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58713 > I am sure that I have refered to this exact possibility, in one of my > comparitively recent posts. It was prior to the Changeling Hypothisis posts, however. > (Found it. It was posted April 15.) I didn't go into detail, just noted the > paradox. > I really had thought someone else must have made the same speculation; however, as I mentioned, it wasn't in the VFAQ summaries, and I can't figure out how to search more than a page worth of current posts. And I do have some small bit of a life remaining such that I didn't want to search through nearly 60,000 posts page-by-page! I came across this newsgroup to try and bridge the remaining weeks between my latest re-readings of HP1-4 and the release date for 5. Lots of interesting stuff. But no apparent full-postings search capability (?) I'll share another speculation (that I also haven't searched for!) - that Dumbledore isn't long for this world. Hagrid's "Great man, Dumbledore. 'Slong as we've got him, I'm not too worried." (Chapter 37 in GoF) sounds like the kiss of death to me... Thanks, Ann From horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com Mon May 26 23:00:03 2003 From: horsegirlaeg at hotmail.com (Ali) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:00:03 -0000 Subject: red headed gryffindors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58714 Sure, all the Weasleys are redheads and Gryffindors, but think of eveyone else! I think, although it's a hat, it reads your mind, just that, and that's what matters. Imagine being the smartest and most resorceful bruntte ever, fitting perfectly into Ravenclaw, but now you're a Hufflepuff! Shame! The school would NOT be as good! ~Ali G* From kemp at arcom.com.au Tue May 27 03:00:34 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 03:00:34 -0000 Subject: Basic Physics - was [all eyes] In-Reply-To: <7C84F972.2B107EAB.0AE51F07@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58715 > > I was just pondering the same thing. Harry's eyes are green, V.'s are red. Harry's wand shoots red sparks, V.'s shoots green (during the AK curse, anyway). When the two color streams join, they become gold, which doesn't follow color theory either in light or painting -- red and green are complimentary colors (opposite each other on the color wheel), but the rest of the color theories are beyond my knowledge (all colors of light combined creates white light, all colors of paint combined creates mud, a nearly black brown). I've been intrigued with this concept for a while now, that Harry and V have "complimentary" (opposite) color eyes, and their wands shoot colors the opposite of their eye color. Maybe it's just an author's story-telling device, or maybe, given JKR's tendency to plant clues, it's important. I'll be interested to read what those of you who are better theorists than I think of this idea. > > Lynda This may be a little OT, but I just wanted to clear up the Red + Green sparks concern... When I went to primary school, I was taught the "primary colours" were Red, Yellow, and Blue... Which when combined gave Red + Yellow = Orange Yellow + Blue = Green Blue + Red = Purple When I did my first Physics class, I was horrified to learn that they had lied to me... What I thought of as Red, Yellow and Blue were actually Magenta (a "type" of Red), Yellow, and Cyan (a "type" of blue)* These are actually the resultant colours when the actual primary colours (Red, Green, and Blue) are combined** (like on a tv screen) Red + Green = Yellow (who would have thought) Red + Blue = Magenta Blue + Green = Cyan So, back to the topic at hand... If Voldemort's green sparks met Harry's red sparks, the resultant colour would be yellow, which could be said to be gold :-) And who would have thought JK would give us all a physics lesson Regards Pickle Jimmy * http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en- us/icm/icm_9ek3.asp ** http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en- us/icm/icm_6uer.asp From kemp at arcom.com.au Tue May 27 03:14:13 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 03:14:13 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "guardianapcelt" wrote: > Well, after having so many fine people contradict me, I think it's > high time I contradict myself :-D...I've been rereading CoS, and > found this quote from Lockhart regarding Mrs. Norris' petrification > "It was definitely a curse that killer her - probably the > Transmogrifian Torture - I've seen it used many times, so unlucky I > wasn't here there, I know the very countercurse..." (CoS, American > Text page 141). So here we have a spell, not listed as an > Unforgiveable, that A)Tortures and B)Kills. And as we all know, > Lockhart is a big name dropper. He can tell you quite a bit about > wizarding, just from stuff he's picked up by putting into his books, > even though he's dismal at wizarding himself. I highly doubt he would > have mentioned a Transmogrifian Torture, especially in front of > Dumbledore, if there wasn't such a thing. He likely recognized the > symptoms from something he'd been told by a wizard/witch whose story > he had stolen for a book. - Joe S. Maybe (and don't you love a post that starts with maybe) the Transmogrifian Torture isn't an unforgivable curse because it *is* well known, and *everyone* knows the counter-curse. Hence it would only be useful on a defenceless animal (including muggles). Transmogrifian Torture... sounds like what Moody did to Malfoy - Transmogrified him into a ferret and then Tortured him. So, Lockhart goes off on one of his rants, and drops the first spell he thinks of that could kill a cat - it could just have easily been Wingardium Leviosa (lift Mrs Norris 40 feet into the air and drop her on her head) - just because a Spell/Charm/Jinx/Curse could be used in some means to cause harm, does it make it automatically unforgivable? Pickle Jimmy From kim.dawkins at charter.net Tue May 27 05:29:53 2003 From: kim.dawkins at charter.net (Kimberly Dawkins) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 00:29:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EA6FA6B-9004-11D7-8A23-000393827B3E@charter.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58717 On Monday, May 26, 2003, at 07:05 AM, azevedan wrote: > Harry's blood now makes Voldemort a relative (in the sense of having > the same bloodline, being a blood relative, blood brother, etc.)? This > would mean that Harry now can't be harmed > in Voldemort's presence, since Dumbledore set up that 'ancient > protection' for Harry. Me: I was thinking that Dumbledore's gleam of triumph pertained to some kind of magical *virus* that Voldemort now carries due to his use of Harry's blood. Like the Icheb character on Star Trek Voyager who was genetically engineered by his parents to carry an anti-Borg pathogen and then set up to be assimilated. Not that Dumbledore set Harry up to be kidnapped and used by Voldemort, but he is so good at anticipating events that this could have been something he had prepared for knowing there were *other ways* for V to return when he failed to get the SS/PS. Of course, what this virus would do I can't say, but it'll aid in V's downfall for sure:-) Kim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Audra1976 at aol.com Tue May 27 07:09:08 2003 From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 03:09:08 EDT Subject: Red-haired Gryffindors Message-ID: <14b.1fb08e4f.2c046914@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58718 yellows at aol.com writes: > What hair colors would the others have had, then? I see Slytherin as a > blond -- probably because of the Malfoys. But is there any textual evidence for > this? How about Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw? Brown and Black, respectively? Those > are the colors I always associated with those names. Anyone else have a > thought? Me: The only description we've ever had was of the statue of Slytherin in the Chamber of Secrets. It had an "ancient and monkeyish" face with a "long thin beard" and "sweeping stone robes." I see Slytherin as a blonde as well, I guess partly because of Malfoy and his attitude. Want more specific? I picture a young James Spader, but with green eyes and a beard. I think because James Spader used to play such an arrogant jerk in all those 80s movies. I added the beard to make him look more medieval (the statue of Slytherin in the CoS had a beard), and the green eyes because of his affiliation with snakes and Slytherin's House color. I envision Hufflepuff as a blonde too because "Helga" makes me picture a fair Scandinavian woman with braids. And Hufflepuff's color is yellow. Ravenclaw, I picture with black hair because of the "raven" in her name. I actually transferred my mental image of Moiraine, the Aes Sedai (witch) from Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series. She is descibed as short and slender with large dark eyes. She's also in the Blue Ajah, and blue is Ravenclaw's color. I too see Gryffindor as having reddish hair. Gryffindor House's color is red, and I associate the lion with the Sun sign Leo, and with fire. I might have mentioned it before on this list, but I did a portrait of a young, redheaded Richard Harris as Gryffindor wearing the Sorting Hat, as a tribute right after Richard Harris died. It's scanned in here: http://www.geocities.com/audrahammer/godric.jpg Let me know off-list if you like it, or want to borrow it or anything. -Audra- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Tue May 27 06:43:21 2003 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 06:43:21 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: <3EA6FA6B-9004-11D7-8A23-000393827B3E@charter.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58719 I was thinking that Dumbledore's gleam of triumph pertained to some > kind of magical *virus* that Voldemort now carries due to his use of > Harry's blood. Like the Icheb character on Star Trek Voyager who was > Kim Me: I was thinking a sort of similar, but more different view from yours. In the way that, because Voldemort gave some of himself to Harry when the curse failed as a baby. Now Harry's blood has put some of Harry's self into Voldemort. Making them interconnect, sort of thing. So in a way, Voldemort now has qualities from Harry that he does not ever want. It may weaken him, instead of being resourcefull, as his own powers have to Harry. Also, what if the OOTP- whatever it is was created when Harry's blood was used to make Voldemort mortal again? It's like a triangle now. Voldemort Harry and fawkes connected. Maybe this is why Dumbledore had a glint of triamph in his eye. Maria. From a4annielauss at msn.com Tue May 27 07:09:22 2003 From: a4annielauss at msn.com (rhosyn4u) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 07:09:22 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: <3EA6FA6B-9004-11D7-8A23-000393827B3E@charter.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58720 Whatever the gleam meant (and I subscribe to the prevailing theory that it has something to do with Voldemort's ultimate downfall), I don't think it means that Harry is completely protected from Voldemort, because that would pretty much put an end to the story. If Voldemort was powerless to harm Harry, then he is no longer a threat to Harry; the reverse, actually. That would flatten all the suspense and escalating tension and all that would be left would be for Harry to find, isolate, and destroy Voldemort. I think that Voldemort has made another mistake which will weaken, not incapacitate, him, and which will play a part in his ultimate downfall. ~annie =) From koticzka at wp.pl Tue May 27 07:58:46 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:58:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character descriptions - a clue on Potters age? Message-ID: <006e01c32427$0e2ed2e0$0be91d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58721 GulPlum wrote: >>I would like to get some kind of indication of a general age bracket into which to put them, not only to be able to give their features some kind of context, but to be able to speculate about possible relationships (no, I don't mean sexual or romantic ones - that interests me *even less*!)<< **Koticzka's suggestion: I believe it was mentioned that Snape and Potter's crowd were in school together, so the age difference narrows to 6 years, maximum. I do believe they were closer than that. Percy pays very little attention to the first year students as individuals. I know that I am simplifying this matter, but the general point stands. So, they are probably no more than 4 years apart. I was trying to find who it was that said that Snape knew many spells when he came to Hogwarts, and failed, but I believe these were Sirius's words. This would indicate that they met when Snape was in his first year, but this is not certain! Assuming that it is true, we may conclude that Snape is the same age or younger than Potter's crowd. It is rather doubtful that they were not in the same year. Again, we may never know. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Tue May 27 07:58:03 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:58:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a Dhampire or Animagus / Smells in Hogwarts/MoM Regs/ House Elves and DEs Message-ID: <006d01c32427$0bd02260$0be91d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58722 Pippin wrote: >>In Eastern Europe there were stories about vampire spirits which could take physical form long enough to mate with human beings and spawn offspring. These vampires were said to feed on vital energy, not blood. But JKR has a habit of combining various folklore and literary traditions to come up with her creations<< ***Koticzka comments: Sorry if this comes across as sarcastic, but that sounds absolutely fascinating. Where have you found this information? Which part of Eastern Europe is being talked about? It sounds rather like veelas, who actually have a couple of different names in folklore. maria_kirilenko wrote: >>The biggest, IMO, mention of vampires is in PoA, where Lupin assigned an *essay* on vampires<< ***Koticzka comments: Then an essay on the subject of werewolves would be a simple revenge... Makes sense, but - see below. No, I do not think that Snape is any kind of vampire. In my opinion, he is simply pale - as is any person who is keen on indoor activities, like potion making, cooking, or web surfing ; ) As a teenager, I used to have a boyfriend who was a cook. He was always pale and his hair was not like silk all the time, unfortunately. That's where the similarities with Snape end. Snape, being busy with his cauldrons and surrounded by fumes, may smell like fumes and some potion ingredients. He is certainly not getting sun. Due to heat, fumes, steam, and vapor his hair gets greasy very quickly. Yellow teeth might be inherited genetically or he might try most of his potions himself. I am against theories that he smokes! As a vampire, he would have teeth that were a different color than yellow, I suppose. No, I do not honor him with vampire origins. Rather, he is something of a freak (hopefully a clean one!). As I already mentioned smells, I am deeply convinced, that J.K. Rowling would describe Snape's smell to make the Potion Master seem more awful, abominable, frightening, disgusting, etc, just to take away sympathy from him. Just because it is Snape's role to be a double-faced character - a heroic git. Writing about smells depends on our perceptional abilities, on one hand, and is not always is connected with the senses, though it very often is. I can hear very well, I am pretty sensitive to sounds and music, but when describing something, I use words that are more connected with sight than hearing, although my eyes are veeeeerrry far from being perfect. There are some special techniques of communication which are based on such abilities and preferences. Snape's qualifications for DADA teacher come from his childhood and probably family traditions (whatever kind of traditions those are). I cannot tell you where it was mentioned in the books, but "when he came to Hogwarts, he knew many dark spells" or "more dark spells than many older students". It must have been in PoA, said by Sirius, but I would not bet on that. Sorry for being vague, but I have no way to look it up. Vampire hunting might be an occupation with severe consequences, but since he is living a double life already, wouldn't he have the strength, time, and opportunities to pull it off? If Voldemort had someone like Snape by his side and wanted to win, wouldn't he need more people to fight for him? And if he cannot find those people, maybe vampires would do? Hence, Snape's connection to them - hunting, or even leading (this is too much of a stretch for me, though). This would explain Lupin's persecution, and Snape's style of treating him and others. I share Janet Anderson's point of view: Snape might be an animagus, but let's credit Miss Granger her intelligence! Considering Snape's activities, motives, and ways, which the Trio does very often, Hermione would also consider his animagus abilities. First, Hermione would do that because she is a very precise person, Second, it would have been valuable information for them since HP1. Hermione not sharing such sensational information with her best friends does not sound very credible to me. Of course, it is a possibility. So, at least he is not a registered animagus. Wouldn't it be slightly too much and too neat for Snape to be The Only True Potion Master, a spy, double agent, with logical abilities (which are rare), skilled in Dark Magic (as mentioned above), AND an animagus too? I would add my five additional theories about Snape's amazing hidden abilities. He is champion of Quidditch known a pseudonym, heir of Ravenclaw and Slytherin, though not the main branch, studying arithmancy and muggle nuclear physics for killing time as an advisor for the ONZ and UE secret security councils Oh, I almost forgot that he is a main consultant on the Batman and Bond series (take a guess about who is the author of the famous line of recent movies) and inventor of The Matrix (Have you seen some pictures of "Snape Reloaded" on Snapesupport group? I definitely recommend them!). I beg your pardon. I am Snape-overdosed due to problems with moving to another flat. I will be OK in a couple of days... or taken to St. Mungo's. Jenny_ravenclaw wrote: >>While we don't know if Snape did go to the graveyard with the others, we can assume he had a say in the matter.<< ***Koticzka comments again: It is doubtful he was there - he was too surprised and too careful during Harry's relation of the story. I do believe that what had happened in the graveyard was new to them. Some canon support for this can be found in his reaction when Harry mentioned that Lucius Malfoy had been there. By the way, if the DE's are Voldie's house elves, what do they have to get to be free? It came to my mind suddenly, and sadly, that Snape might be the person who dies in the fifth book - imagine Alan Rickman in movie 7. I like the guy, but he would be more suitable for Dumbledore's character then. Koticzka, who is still wondering why she is so similar to Snape in her actions, missing her teaching she left a year ago (not humiliating students - pity!) and wondering whether JKR left her job as a teacher for a certain purpose... How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Tue May 27 08:01:04 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:01:04 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Place (was Heirs of Houses) or Who's whose heir? Message-ID: <007001c32427$1082adf0$0be91d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58723 Ali wrote: >>Ah, now here's where I disagree. I think Ron is, in fact, very brave, and very loyal. And yes I know you're thinking I'm just saying this as a steadfast Ron fan (which I am, mind you) but I truly think this. Ron has always stuck by Harry, and he's never backed away from a fight or challenge. He volunteered to be Harry's second in a wizard duel with Malfoy in first year.<< ***Koticzka's comment: Bravery is not about NOT BEING AFRAID, but bringing oneself to act despite fear, in my opinion. To me, the biggest tribute to poor Ron's bravery is being able to overcome his arachnophobia. This kind of bravery is twice as precious to me. Ravenclaw is definitely not for Ron. Could it be Hufflepuff? I see him as rather lazy, and I would never expect him to be a workaholic, like Percy for instance! Perhaps this is why he is not there. I do not mean that Gryffindors are lazy, of course, only that Hufflepuffs are NOT lazy. If there are so many theories about Harry being the Heir of Slytherin put in Gryffindor House, there is no reason to suppose that the Heir of Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw might be not be put in another House than their ancestors ("I must be very careful with all of those connections, so that I am not misunderstood like JKR was," Koticzka is murmuring under her nose). Hermione is as wise as Ravenclaw. There is no canon on purity of blood being a Ravenclaw feature, but that is how I see them. Since Hermione is verging on being a workaholic, I would consider putting her in Hufflepuff (accent on consider!). Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Tue May 27 08:00:09 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:00:09 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's motivation / JKR towards Snape / Snape and Lockhart Message-ID: <006f01c32427$0f2c6cc0$0be91d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58724 Eloise wrote: >>I shall be so disappointed if we suddenly find out that it was all a sham, that Snape *wasn't* a fully paid-up Death Eater, that he *isn't* angst ridden and tortured about the things he has done in the past, that he didn't change allegiance, but was merely a clever trickster who fooled Lord Voldemort into believing he supported him. I shall be so disappointed if I find out that he is only loyal to Dumbledore because of some deal, not because he believes in his cause. It would be too simple and glib an explanation for my taste. ***Koticzka comments (desperately): I am with you, Eloise, with all of my heart devoted to Snape. Severus Snape has left Voldie's side long before Voldemort's defeat. This apparently means that Snape was a DE and changed his allegiance to become a spy. >From GoF, "The Pensieve: >>Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. "I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."<< I do believe it is very unlikely that he had joined the DEs as a spy already. Dumbledore says"was indeed a DE" and "he rejoined..". I see Snape as a sinner. JKR would not miss an opportunity to deepen one of her characters, would she? I am still trying to guess who Snape represents for her- herself? a colleague? her imagination? He seems to be drawn very precisely, perhaps even more than any other character. People usually do that for a purpose. Any ideas or references on the subject? I would be very grateful! innermurk wrote >>I'm not defending Lockhart here, but I do have to ask why it's all right for Snape to mistreat students as a "learning tool" and it's not ok for Lockhart to do so. There seems to be a double standard running around here. Let's face it if Snape had set the trio in a room and unleashed a bunch of cornish pixies on them, some on this list would argue that it was an important lesson, he was trying to toughen them up, he was grooming them to fight the Dark Lord, and a myriad of other excuses. But when Lockhart does it, he's just a fraud, braggart, and an icompetent idiot?<< ***Koticzka comments: Because Lockhart is a fraud, a braggart, and an incompetent idiot! And Snape can probably tell that from his first glance! He must be very good at reading body language and judging people. Supposedly Lockhart is easy to read, not only to the Potions Master. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 27 08:37:17 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:37:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: titles in general In-Reply-To: <58E79ADC-8FFD-11D7-8A23-000393827B3E@charter.net> Message-ID: <20030527083717.33373.qmail@web41906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58725 Kimberly Dawkins wrote: On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 09:03 PM, jodel at aol.com wrote: > The scarcity of wizards in general would make for an even greater > scarcety of titled wizards, but the > historical existence of "Sir" Nicolas and the "Baron" is a clear > indication that > such did once exist. > Kim wrote Were *Sir* Nicholas and the Bloody *Baron* wizards in life? Is it required that a ghost was a wizard when alive or can muggles become ghosts? Me Hogwarts was built by GG, HH, RR & SS as per CoS. I always thought that ghosts haunt the area they die, therefore IMO the ghosts should all have been WW's or students at Hogwarts when they died. Robert the old Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com From koticzka at wp.pl Tue May 27 07:54:07 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:54:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's hair and status (some FF)/ Trevor the toad Message-ID: <006b01c32427$08a632a0$0be91d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58726 Gail wrote: >>What Snape needs is a good hairdresser. << ***Koticzka's comment: That might not be enough. My theory is that grease comes from his job: the heat and fumes involved with potion making. I would also like him to take more care with his external appearance. No drastic changes, not too much ; ) But if he -Snape - could see himself - Mr. Alan Rickman - as Metatron in DOGMA., he would be inspired to make an appointment with the nearest hairdresser, I suppose. Gail again: >>There is nothing in the books to suggest that he is anything less than human - a lonely, unhappy human, to be sure. I picture him as having a slightly tumbledown property, perhaps a mansion or even a small castle (given the long lives of magical people and my suspicion that he comes from a long line of purebloods) that he never visits because the silence would weigh on him. Just my pet theory, anyway<< **Koticzka's picture: I imagine him not being part of the highest class, like the Malfoys, but as part of a good old family, with a sort of villa perhaps (not veela!!!! No woman by his side!). Good noble roots. A family that knows its place: proud, tough, maintaining its principles. A small castle sounds nice, but if I were in J.K.R.'s place, I would not want to make him too romantic. Being taught pride from his very early childhood, he would join the DEs to gain more respect for his family, or following the trends of other families. The same reason would make him quit and allow him to teach. In a fanfic, (I read too many of them to know which it was, but it could have been "Ghosts" by Reive) he was said to have nothing, everything had been confiscated by the Ministry. This would be logical and not very strange - accused of crimes and fraud, he would not have been allowed to own property. He might not have been guilty, but at that time he would have had to prove his innocence, not guilt. At the very least, many of his possessions would have been taken away... Even if it was not directly through legal channels, some people would find a way to do this, such as accusing him of enchanting his possessions with Dark Magic. Anyway, he does not have much left: a building, some cupboards to keep his skeletons in, perhaps some books (not all of them were taken as Dark ones...), portraits of his ancestors looking disappointed at their last heir... Jeez. How very touching! Let me stop rambling. To the point: Snape is not lonely and unhappy. He is independent, he despises weak people who are not strong enough to resist feelings of pity. He is too busy to take care of rubbish like relationships. And, of course, there is no woman who is intelligent enough to be honored by becoming his companion, even in a conversation. Love? Oh, yes, it must exist, but do not bother him with trivial stuff! And he is definitely too proud to admit, to himself even, what comes to his mind, secretly and treacherously as a snake... This attitude might be perceived as too fantastic or romantic, not realistic. Let us be adult and mature enough to admit - such pitiful attitudes do exist. No? Look around. Sometimes a good mirror is enough. A muggle one would do. I do hope most of the people here appreciate a good hairdresser's services, though... (Koticzka's touching her greasy mess and wonders whether she will manage to find someone to repair her &^%*$# bathroom in time) Gail again: >>I found it hard to believe that all those teachers stayed at school over the holidays, even Christmas<< ***Koticzka comments: Again, I cannot remember where exactly, but it is written in at least one book that only Filch (his name is not even given) stays at Hogwarts for holidays. And during Christmas dinner, only part of the faculty was present. TREVOR THE TOAD: honeycakehorse03 wrote: >>5. Trevor is stupid He is a toad without any sense of location and always has to be found by Neville<< ***Koticzka comments: I agree that Trevor has special abilities in the book. I am not trying to investigate his role (but will follow the thread with interest...). I am keen on becoming an animagus in my Parallel Magical Existence. How About Trevor the Independent Toad? Even my rat has its own personality, and he is a Muggle one (I would give him to the MoM if he lived longer than 3 years, though it would break my heart!) Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Tue May 27 07:57:01 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:57:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: The people in the promo pics/True Heirs/Special fan Message-ID: <006c01c32427$0aa62150$0be91d3e@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58727 While I am deeply confused by all the ideas about who might be depicted in the promotional material, I have my own theory, of course. The first person could be a spy who looks much like Alan Rickman. The second person is Mad-Eye-Moody -Who-Cannot-Be-Mistaken, and the third person could be either a frightened student with his hair up (Ron seeing Aragog?) or Hooch. But are you sure that the cover was designed by a person who already knew the plot? It seems to me that the illustrator of the cover was talking about the difficulties of designing something sight unseen... Linda (who is quite good at voicing my opinion and has a very nice explanation of Snape's behavior in the end of PoA, which I loved!) suggests that the Weasleys are Gryffindor's Heirs... if I understood her well. And Hermione, with her wisdom, might be Ravenclaw's representative (an heir, of sorts). Stand by - searching for Hufflepuff's heir! Joke though that is, it would make it three against one again, a nice repetition of history. It does not match any of my other theories, but it is worth considering. Oh, David Burgess came a similar conclusion, or an even better one, independently! That makes the thought even more valuable for further consideration! Who is a special fan of Harry's? vivamus42 wrote : <> Wow! If Ginny could do this, that would be something! Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a4annielauss at msn.com Tue May 27 06:54:40 2003 From: a4annielauss at msn.com (rhosyn4u) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 06:54:40 -0000 Subject: Color (was: all eyes) In-Reply-To: <7C84F972.2B107EAB.0AE51F07@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58728 Lynda wrote: > In a message dated 5/26/2003 8:27:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, >HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: >When the two color streams join, they become gold, which doesn't >follow color theory either in light or painting -- red and green >are complimentary colors In case anyone cares.... I remember that the joined jets of color are described as becoming "deep" or "dark" gold (don't remember which). When complimentary colors are combined, they neutralize or turn brownish (red and green especially). However, it's safe to assume that the jets of color were luminous and shining (how else could they be seen in the dark?), and a shining brown could be seen as a "deep" or a "dark" gold. ~rhosyn =) From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Tue May 27 12:26:45 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 12:26:45 -0000 Subject: Comments on Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58729 Lara wrote: "The symbolic Slyth/Gryff of the colors both Harry and Voldy seem to distribute or have is widely known and debated. They seem to have many things alike, though also many things different. I would like to add that the red eyes Voldy has in GoF are in my opinion not his eyes ? well, they are his eyes, but not from birth. I believe that his eyes turned red when he underwent the horrific transformations to become immortal. Maybe only because of the bone, flesh and blood potions, but maybe as a whole from all of his other * ahem * experiments." "'... while Lord Voldemort's powers were destroyed?' There was an odd red gleam in his hungry eyes now." (p. 313 CoS USpb) I think this quote shows quite clearly that the red as are an idicater for the Voldemort persona come through. The gleam is there just when Tom Riddle mentions his future pseudonym which could further show the differences between Tom Riddle and Voldemort and underline the message of the books that it's important what choices you make, not who you are. But let me start at the beginning: I'm convicted that Tom Riddle and Voldemort are not exactly different people, but have different character traits. For example: "Riddle laughed, a high, cold laugh that didn't suit him." (p. 310, CoS USpb) I don't think any of us disagree when I say that the cold laugh of Voldemort definitely fits his character, it's basically the first thing we get to know about him in PS/SS ("and remembered something else, for the first time in his life: a high, cold, cruel laugh.", p. 56 SSpb). On the other hand, Tom Riddle and Voldemort share similar beliefs about Muggleborns and a disregard for life (as we can later see in Riddle killing his father and grandparents). So, that means while Tom Riddle certainly already shows traits of Voldemort at 16, there are still differences between them. About the Slytherin and Gryffindor colours and their inversion in Harry's and Voldemort's eyes, I think it just shows the similarities between Harry and Voldemort and shows that while they both came from a similar background, they made different choices that obviously influenced their whole lives. IMO it also shows that not everything is black or white. When I looked up the meaning of the different colours, I came up with characteristics for green and res that fit both Harry and Voldemort: Red: energy, passion, infuriation, sex, agression, fight, war, growth, achievement of goals Green: hope, renewal, growth, livelyness, fertility, wealth, calmness, composure, healing, (paraphrased and translated from Lichtvolle Magie mit Kerzen by Roland Rottenfu?er) The most obvious ones are war, agression and fight for Voldemort and hope for Harry. However, Voldemort's rebirth also shows renewal and healing, while energy and passion can also be contributed to Harry (e.g. Quidditch or when somebody disparages his parents). Therefore, I think that during the following books Harry will have to realise that there's some good and bad in everybody and that you can't just tell what the person is from looking at them (or their house or whatever other difference you could come up with.) This realisation has already started with finding out that Pettigrew, a Gryffindor went over to Voldemort and that Snape, a Slytherin is working for the Light side. In PS/SS and CoS we don't see any of this yet,in fact Harry is terrified that he may be evil only because he could have gone into Slytherin or because he is a Parselmouth. Sabrina From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Tue May 27 13:06:01 2003 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:06:01 -0000 Subject: Harry's parents bodies In-Reply-To: <20030527001524.18076.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58730 I was wondering what happened to James and Lilly Potters bodies. Since the Avada Kedavara curse leaves people unmarked they must be somewhere, intact. So where are their graves? Why has Harry never asked about this, and why has he never visited their graves. Also, how did Harry get the scar on his forehead. The Avada Kedavara curse is suposed 2 leave people inmarked but dead. Let me know any ideas you have on this. Morgan The Magnificent Muggle From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 27 15:01:38 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:01:38 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "azevedan" wrote: > I'll share another speculation (that I also haven't searched for!) - > that Dumbledore isn't long for this world. Hagrid's "Great man, > Dumbledore. 'Slong as we've got him, I'm not too worried." > (Chapter 37 in GoF) sounds like the kiss of death to me... > > Thanks, > Ann I've been having the same thought, partly based on the above bit, but also based on a couple of things that Dumbledore himself says. First is Dumbledore's comment to Harry near the end of SS/PS concerning the imminent death of Nicholas Flamel, the one about death being but the next great adventure. There is Dumbledore's comment to Harry near the end of PoA concerning Harry's ability to invoke the patronus, asking Harry if he thinks the dead ever truly leave us. (Are there similar comments about death near the ends of the other two books?) And finally, there is the fact that Dumbledore is quite old in either muggle or WW terms. Ersatz Harry, wondering why Flamel didn't give out some elixir of life to some of his friends From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 27 15:12:02 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:12:02 -0000 Subject: Bertha and Barty Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58732 In rereading part of GoF last night, I noticed that Voldemore says Bertha Jorkins told him about a DE who would be willing to serve him if only Voldemort could get to him (or something like that). But why would Bertha have known this? Might there have been some relationship between Bertha and the elder Barty Crouch that has not yet been revealed? Remember, Mrs. Crouch was already dead, so perhaps Bertha provided him some, er, companionship. If so, what else might Bertha have known that she could have told Voldemort? Ersatz Harry From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 27 15:31:38 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bertha and Barty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030527153138.74749.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58733 Ersatz Harry wrote: In rereading part of GoF last night, I noticed that Voldemore says Bertha Jorkins told him about a DE who would be willing to serve him if only Voldemort could get to him (or something like that). But why would Bertha have known this? Might there have been some relationship between Bertha and the elder Barty Crouch that has not yet been revealed? Remember, Mrs. Crouch was already dead, so perhaps Bertha provided him some, er, companionship. If so, what else might Bertha have known that she could have told Voldemort? Ersatz Harry BECKY: Actually, if you remember Winky's testimony, Bertha came over one day when Crouch wasn't home. She overheard Winky talking to Crouch Jr. under the invisibility cloak and was able to figure out who was under it. When Crouch Sr. came home she confronted him but he used a memory charm on her. This may have contributed to her forgetfullness as Serius Black indicated she wasn't real sharp but definitely wasn't forgetful. Crouch Jr. told us that it was only under torture that Voldemort was able to break through the memory charm and discover that Crouch Jr. was being held at the house. Huggs Becky Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 27 15:51:40 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:51:40 -0000 Subject: Bertha and Barty In-Reply-To: <20030527153138.74749.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58734 Ah, I see why I was confused. Bertha found out about Barty from Winky, as you mention. Presumably Bertha knew Barty was a DE from the trial, but that needn't have been the case; all Voldemort needed to know was that young Barty was still alive. The way Voldemort phrased things in the graveyard, though, he made it sound as if Bertha had said the part about "if only he could find him" or whatever the exact words were. It almost sounded as if Bertha passing on the useful part of the knowledge in a semi-helpful way. Sounds like I misattributed a bit here. Thanks for the clarification. Ersatz Harry, prepared for the onslaught of corrections from people who read my note and reply before reading Huggs Becky's response --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Becky Walkden wrote: > > BECKY: Actually, if you remember Winky's testimony, Bertha came over one day when Crouch wasn't home. She overheard Winky talking to Crouch Jr. under the invisibility cloak and was able to figure out who was under it. When Crouch Sr. came home she confronted him but he used a memory charm on her. This may have contributed to her forgetfullness as Serius Black indicated she wasn't real sharp but definitely wasn't forgetful. > > Crouch Jr. told us that it was only under torture that Voldemort was able to break through the memory charm and discover that Crouch Jr. was being held at the house. > > Huggs Becky From innermurk at catlover.com Tue May 27 16:14:53 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 16:14:53 -0000 Subject: OoP SPOILERS: Worries for Harry? Warning: Long Reply In-Reply-To: <147.122e3a4c.2c0065b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > One, without getting angry, I'd like to point out that they're not excuses > for Snape. *pause* Sorry...getting angry. I think there are better words for > what we would say. Perhaps "myriad of other *ideas*", because "excuses" is - > never mind, not important now. Innermurk replies: Ok, fine, excuses, ideas, they really come to the same conclusion. You're *excusing* his behavior with your *ideas* Oryomai continues: > You are defending Lockhart here. It's not a double standard. The reason > that Lockhart becomes all the things you mentioned (fraud, incompetent idiot, > braggart, and overall John Noble) is that HE COULD NOT CONTROL THEM! If Snape > brought in Cornish Pixies, he would be able to stop them from throwing wands and > other things around. But if Snape were to lock the Trio in with pixies, it > wouldn't be because he wasn't competent enough to get them back in the cage - > it really would be a test or something. My hatred of Lockhart is showing here, > but I think that he should have known how to control the pixies before > busting them out in the middle of class - that was just stupid of him. My point? > Lockhart *is* a fraud, he doesn't become one just because of the infamous pixie > incident. Innermurk replies: I WAS NOT defending Lockhart. (I guess I'd know what I was doing) I understand that he really is a fraud. I just wanted to point out that people will tend to come up with *ideas* of how Snape isn't really what he seems because they want him to be on the good side despite all the (seeming to be) evidence against it. We don't really know that Lockhart is a fraud until the end of COS. Until he reveals himself as one (unless he was just acting there as well) he could've been playing a brilliant role as a defender of Harry as much as Snape could be. And you have to admit that his version of acting is *much* better than Snape's. No one (not even the other staff members) would believe he was a brilliant double agent. Now, do I believe he was a double agent? NO. However, until the end of COS we didn't know that for sure. We don't know what Snape's role is in all this. We won't know until JKR reveals it to us. So,...I say there IS a double standard here. You don't like Lockhart, and so we won't be seeing many *Lockhart is a brilliant agent for the forces of good, but that particular brilliant plan got thwarted when he was blasted with Ron's wand* theories but we will see many *Snape is a double agent and he's working for the good side and that's why DD trusts him* theories. I think everyone got hooked up on the example I provided but failed to see what I was really trying to say. Hopefully, it's clear as mud now :) Innermurk From emeleel at juno.com Tue May 27 16:48:27 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:48:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Spying!Snape won't happen Message-ID: <20030527.114934.-296231.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58736 On Mon, 26 May 2003 17:15:24 -0700 (PDT) An'nai Jiriki writes: > > I have come to believe that the one that is too > cowardly is Karakoff as well. But for the one that has > left forever, the time frames are possible that he > refers to Crouch, who has had his soul sucked. The > other "most faithful servant" (GOF USpb 651) could > mean Snape, if Voldie thinks he is the one silencing > Crouch. The last is a bit stretched, but we don't know > if Snape has had contact. He has known of Voldemort > coming back, but, in my opinion, has been too jumpy > thoughout the entire book. > > Chris I don't think the time frame allows the one who has left forever to be Crouch. It took Voldemort a good while to go through the whole graveyard scene of telling all to his DE's, then we don't know how long the duel took. After that, there's the transport back to Hogwarts, Crouch/Moody taking off with Harry and spending a bunch of time yammering to him, then DD and the others rescuing Harry, the Veritaserum interrogation, then off to the hospital wing with Harry, quite a bit more, and then it was much later that Crouch got dementorized. It was probably hours and hours after Voldie's speech before Crouch got soul-sucked. No, I really believe that: One too cowardly to return = Karkaroff One who has left me forever = Snape One faithful servant = Crouch Jr. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Tue May 27 16:51:42 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:51:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's parent's bodies Message-ID: <3ED3979E.6090003@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58737 Daniel Morgan wrote: > I was wondering what happened to James and Lilly Potters bodies. > Since the Avada Kedavara curse leaves people unmarked they must be > somewhere, intact. So where are their graves? Why has Harry never > asked about this, and why has he never visited their graves. > > Also, how did Harry get the scar on his forehead. The Avada Kedavara > curse is supposed 2 leave people unmarked but dead. Let me know any > ideas you have on this. > > Morgan The Magnificent Muggle Pat replies: The house in Godric's Hollow was destroyed, so I have always assumed that James and Lily went up with the house, leaving Harry somehow unscathed except for said scar. I can't imagine that Petunia would take Harry to visit his parent's graves, so he perhaps has just never thought about it. He is only 11. My sons have never been to a cemetery. They wouldn't think to ask. Or perhaps that's not the tradition in the WW. As far as the scar, it's from where the curse rebounded. Yes, an AK that works correctly leaves no mark, but this one didn't work. It's JKR's book, she makes the rules! One other thing I noticed: The first time Hagrid and Harry visited his Gringotts vault, "A lot of green smoke came billowing out" (PS, hardcover p. 75) after Griphook unlocked the door. What's up with the green smoke??? A clue, or just something for atmosphere? Pat > From emeleel at juno.com Tue May 27 16:43:30 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:43:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's parents bodies Message-ID: <20030527.114934.-296231.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58738 On Tue, 27 May 2003 13:06:01 -0000 "danielmorgan322" writes: > I was wondering what happened to James and Lilly Potters bodies. > Since the Avada Kedavara curse leaves people unmarked they must be > somewhere, intact. So where are their graves? Why has Harry never > asked about this, and why has he never visited their graves. That's a very good question. I can only assume that the Dursleys beat the notion out of him about seeing his parents' graves, and now even though he knows the truth, he hasn't thought to ask about them. > Also, how did Harry get the scar on his forehead. The Avada Kedavara > curse is suposed 2 leave people inmarked but dead. Let me know any > ideas you have on this. The AK curse is *supposed* to leave a person unmarked but dead, but it didn't work on Harry, for reasons unknown. Lots of theories abound, though! The scar left behind is the only thing that happened, and the curse rebounded upon Voldemort, which is what zapped him and left him bodiless and nearly powerless. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From jodel at aol.com Tue May 27 17:37:45 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:37:45 EDT Subject: Hair color of characters (was; Red-haired Gryffindors) Message-ID: <18.308cc44a.2c04fc69@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58739 < Brief Chronicles wrote: I doubt that it matters. But it does appear that black hair is fairly common among wizards, given that the majority of the characters whose hair color is actually described seem to have black hair. So far the black-haired magicals refered to have been Hagrid, Snape, McGonagall, Karkaroff (when younger), Madame Maxime, Tom Riddle, both Potters, Sirius, Cedric Diggory, Milicent Bulstrode, Viktor Krum (Bertha Jorkins? can't recall whether she was black haired or "dark" haired). Even leaving aside the ethnic students who are presumed to have black hair (Johnson, Joprdan, Thomas, Chang and the Patils). Neville, Pettigrew, Barty Crouch Jr., Fleur and her sister, and the Malfoys (and Hannah Abbott? Lockhart?) have all been described as "fair" to various degrees. The Weasleys, Lily Evans and Dumbledore are all described as having various shades of red hair. It seems mildly interesting that brown hair, which is the most common, overall, in the population is only ascribed to Hermione and Remus Lupin. Of course fanon tradition assigns various hair colors to various other characters as well, but we really don't know for sure. Although we can assume that the predominant hair colors of wizards and witches are probably grey, white or silver... -JOdel From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 27 18:26:28 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:26:28 -0000 Subject: Snape a Dhampire or Animagus / Smells in Hogwarts/MoM Regs/ House Elves and In-Reply-To: <006d01c32427$0bd02260$0be91d3e@ola> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Koticzka" wrote: > Pippin wrote: > >>In Eastern Europe there were stories about vampire spirits which could take physical form long enough to mate with human beings and spawn offspring. These vampires were said to feed on vital energy, not blood. But JKR has a habit of combining various folklore and literary traditions to come up with her creations<< > > ***Koticzka comments: > Sorry if this comes across as sarcastic, but that sounds absolutely fascinating. Where have you found this information? Which part of Eastern Europe is being talked about? It sounds rather like veelas, who actually have a couple of different names in folklore.<<< I found the information in a book called "Jewish Magic and Superstition" by Joshua Trachtenberg. The book is rare and currently out of print, but according to Amazon.com it will shortly be released in paperback. I recommend it highly. I can't remember if there was a location given for the belief. I got the book from the library quite a while ago, so I'm working from memory here. The vampires did sound rather veela like. They were supposed to be the cause of erotic dreams. Pippin From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 18:22:50 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:22:50 -0000 Subject: File - ADMIN OoP Spoilers.txt In-Reply-To: <002a01c3233a$e65325b0$15ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58741 Original ADMIN: > > > > For example, an appropriate subject header might be, "OOP: Harry, > > Sirius." Harry and Sirius are so interconnected in previous books > > that this isn't a spoiler. "OOP: Harry, Lupin" on the other hand, > > *would* be a spoiler, as we don't know whether Lupin is in Book > > 5. "OOP: Lupin" would be better (as for all we know, you might be > > posting on why Lupin isn't in the book). > Kelly: > Question on this. You say that "OOP: Harry, Lupin" would be > indicative of Lupin being in the book and being interconnected > with Harry. But this is not necessarily true. The person could > be posting two separate things in the same topic, one about Harry, > and one about Lupin (perhaps why he is not in the book). Now, on > the other hand, posting "OOP: Harry *and* Lupin"would be a > definite spoiler. I mean, if you don't want us to post in the > manner of the first, that's fine with me. Just thought I'd point > out a situation where the two could perhaps not be interconnected. > Placing my official List Elf Tea Cosy firmly on my head: I don't think you need to worry too much about this. We're not intending to nitpick every single OOP header for possible spoiler violations ;-) What we want is for everyone to make a good faith effort to keep spoilers out of the headers. "Harry, Lupin" is an example - mainly aimed at making people think about what sort of thing can be a spoiler (it's obviously worked [grin]). After all "OOP: Hermione slaughtered by DE's!" is a pretty obvious spoiler violation - but it might not occur to people that "OOP: Myrtle, Hermione" could *also* suggest interesting possibilities to people who've just got up to Hermione's tragic, untimely, and somewhat messy demise. 'Does this header give the game away'? 'Could it spoil things for my fellow listies'? If the answer to those questions is 'no', then it really doesn't matter what format the header is in. Oh, except that you need to use the OOP: prefix. ;-) Pippy Elf for the Administration Team From innermurk at catlover.com Tue May 27 19:15:55 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 19:15:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's sacrifice In-Reply-To: <20030526.115038.-515665.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58742 > On Sun, 25 May 2003 23:29:42 EDT rayheuer3 at a... writes: > > Harry takes risks, yes. But with the sure and certain knowledge > > that whatever ills may befall him will be set right. Which means he > > doesn't really "risk" anything. > Melanie responds: > > BUT. Don't forget, Harry did not grow up in the WW. He's having to be > constantly reminded or told about things that most people in the WW > already know and take for granted. In a tense situation, someone who's > already familiar with magical healing *might* think, "oh well, if I get > hurt I'll just go get it healed" but I don't think Harry has lived in the > WW long enough for that to be an instant thought for him. I don't think > he's ever gone into a situation with "sure and certain knowledge" about > getting healed from whatever hurts him. > I innermurk would like to add: Why shouldn't we consider the physical and mental pain that Harry puts himself through a sacrifice? Just because it can be healed doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to do it. It *is* a sacrifice just to go through that. Plus I agree that Harry has shown multitudes of sacrifice throughout all four books. Just because something that happened to him wasn't permenant didn't make it any less of a sacrifice to do. AND he HAS gotten some permenant scars from these experiences. Most of them are mental and emotional, but he has a few physical ones as well (His scar from the failed AK, the loss of loved ones, living with Sirius etc...) It doesn't much matter whether he intended to sacrifice these things or not, the point is, he did. And for the greater good, which makes the sacrifices all the more noble. I don't think anyone goes into a situation thinking, ok there's a battle to be won here, what am I willing to give? Oh, I'll just sacrifice my leg for the victory...I can always get a new one. Or, whoops, that was my best friend, but at least no one can say I haven't sacrificed anything for the cause now. Things just happen along the way, and whether or not they were thought out, planned, or spontaneous instantaneous decisions, they were still sacrifices. Just my thoughts on the subject. Innermurk From dgagauzov at yahoo.com Tue May 27 12:23:22 2003 From: dgagauzov at yahoo.com (Dimitar) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 12:23:22 -0000 Subject: About Harrys Power Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58743 Several times on this list has been raised the question about the extent of Harry's powers ranging from Squib!Harry and Average!Harry to Super!Harry. But isn't it possible that he has similar amount of raw magical power as DD and slightly more then Voldi. The reason he can't beat Voldi now is because he, as 14 years old doesn't know that much spells. That will explain why he overpower Voldi at Priori Incantatem and why he survived in the first place. In that fateful Halloween night his mother's love combined with his raw power deflected AK while other babies protected with love where unable to. As for Imperio I think the key is the power of will but raw mogical power might play role too. Dimitar From innermurk at catlover.com Tue May 27 19:22:26 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 19:22:26 -0000 Subject: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts In-Reply-To: <20030526152850.67440.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58744 > Karen wrote: > << blood. Therefore, I don't believe it is his. The only > silver blood I know of is that of an unicorn. There > could be other things that have silver blood that we > don't know about, but I think that the blood on him is > > unicorn blood. Which means he must have killed a > unicorn - a horrible crime. >>> > And Odile responded: > Interesting indeed... however, I always understood > that the blood on the Bloody Baron was silver because > the ghosts aren't "in color." As such, red could not > appear to be red on a ghost. They are described in PS > as "pearly-white and slightly transparent" and "misty > silver." > > I could be wrong, of course. ^_^ > Adding to Odile's post Innermurk says: We have canon that the ghost's blood is in fact silver. Moaning Myrtle blushes silver when she asks Harry to share her toilet. (I think that's when she does it, I don't have my book with me) Anyway, she blushes silver, and we know when we blush it's because the blood is rushing into our cheeks. Our color blushes are the color of our blood : Red. Their B&W blushes are the color of their blood : Silver. Innermurk From tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com Tue May 27 17:15:35 2003 From: tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com (tiger_queen429) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:15:35 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang and the heirs of Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58745 Why was Tom Riddle the one to open the Chamber of Secrets? It has been around for nearly a thousand years: why did one of Riddle's ancestors not open the Chamber before him? Over the thousand years, the members of Slytherin's family would have known more about the chamber and how to open than Riddle and could have done it at any time. The reason why it was not done before was because no member oft the Slytherin family actually attended Hogwarts. I think that when Slytherin left Hogwarts; he created a school based on his ideal of who was worthy to study magic- Durmstrang (Malfoy stated that Durmstrang does not accept Muggle-borns). Thus Slytherin's desendants would have attended the school that the head of their family line created based on his beliefs. Riddle might not have been accepted to Durmstrang because he was only a half-blood. Perhaps the Headmaster of Durmstrang or some other person approached Riddle and told him he was the last remaining heir of Slytherin and told him of the existence of the Chamber of Secrets. Because he was an orphan, Riddle would not have know about his family's history learning that he was the heir of Slytherin and that he was not of pure enough blood to belong in Durmstrang would have started him on a path towards resentment of Muggles and his own tainted blood that lead him to become Voldemort. Tiger Queen From yellows at aol.com Tue May 27 18:30:30 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:30:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) Message-ID: <143.11f6d05f.2c0508c6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58746 In a message dated 5/27/2003 1:27:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, Pickle Jimmy writes: > Maybe (and don't you love a post that starts with maybe) > the Transmogrifian Torture isn't an unforgivable curse because it > *is* well known, and *everyone* knows the counter-curse. Hence it > would only be useful on a defenceless animal (including muggles). > > Transmogrifian Torture... sounds like what Moody did to Malfoy - > Transmogrified him into a ferret and then Tortured him. > > So, Lockhart goes off on one of his rants, and drops the first spell > he thinks of that could kill a cat - it could just have easily been > Wingardium Leviosa (lift Mrs Norris 40 feet into the air and drop her > on her head) - just because a Spell/Charm/Jinx/Curse could be used in > some means to cause harm, does it make it automatically unforgivable? > I can see that Lockhart may have chosen a random curse out of nowhere, trying to seem much more informed than he actually is. That's part of his character and makes perfect sense to me. But my understanding of curses and counter curses was that you needed to perform the counter curse *as* the curse was being performed -- like in the Wizards' Duel -- in order to block it. Am I off here? Because, then, if your reactions aren't very swift and if your guess isn't correct, you could easily fail to perform a counter curse against *anything,* even something that everyone knows. Therefore, if Transmogrifian Torture can kill, it's absolutely conceivable that it *would* kill, regardless of the popularity of the counter curse. In that case, it seems like it is still very dangerous. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Tue May 27 14:32:39 2003 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:32:39 -0000 Subject: Snape can't see blood! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58747 I've noticed something very peculiar: Non of the potions prepared in potions class ever seems to contain BLOOD as an ingredient. My first thought was that students don't learn potions that contain blood, because they are black magic. - But that can't be the case that generally, because Dumbledore himself is known for the discovery of the various applications of dragon blood. So my second explanation goes into the dhampire-direction again. :-)) Snape has a distorted relationship towards blood, because his father was a vampire! Just like someone who's father was an alcoholic, and who would never let a drop of alcohol pass his threshold. I'd love to hear your theories about the conspicuous absence of blood in potions lessons! Yours, Florentine From danielmorgan322 Tue May 27 17:46:27 2003 From: danielmorgan322 (danielmorgan322) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:46:27 -0000 Subject: James Potter's Sacrifice In-Reply-To: <20030527.114934.-296231.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58748 Why Doesn't James's sacrifice count? After all James died to protect Lily, he sacrificed himself. Isn't that the same as the way Lily sacrificed herself for Harry? So why did Voldermort's curse kill Lily but not Harry? After all we are told in CoS that the reason Harry didn't die was because his mother sacrificed herself for him. What was so special about Lily's sacrifice? Does the counter charm only work with a mother and child? Send me your theories Morgan the magnificent muggle From innermurk at catlover.com Tue May 27 19:54:18 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 19:54:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's parents bodies In-Reply-To: <20030527.114934.-296231.0.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58749 > On Tue, 27 May 2003 13:06:01 -0000 "danielmorgan322" > writes: > > I was wondering what happened to James and Lilly Potters bodies. > > Since the Avada Kedavara curse leaves people unmarked they must be > > somewhere, intact. So where are their graves? Why has Harry never > > asked about this, and why has he never visited their graves. > I innermurk add: I wonder if that's where we'll go in the wizarding world that we've never been to before. A wizarding cemetary so Harry can see his parents' graves. It's plausible if DD is going to tell Harry everything that he should have before. Innermurk From cet138 at psu.edu Tue May 27 17:40:58 2003 From: cet138 at psu.edu (celyse218) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:40:58 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic (was: Petunia is a *Squib*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58750 After reading about theories that Petunia was a Squib, I noticed an interesting contradiction.. Emily F. quoted: > From [SS] Chapter 4, "The Keeper of the Keys": "Knew! Of course we knew! How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? Oh, she got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that - that school - and came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was - a freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" > But if Lily was "turning teacups into rats", she would be violating the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery, by doing magic outside of Hogwarts (CoS ch 2). So either she didn't really do any magic and Petunia was just making that up, or Lily somehow got away with it? Any thoughts? Thanks all and sorry if this has been dealt with earlier, I'm still quite the newbie! : ) Celyse From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Tue May 27 20:20:25 2003 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:20:25 -0000 Subject: About Harrys Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58751 I think that Harry is definately more powerful than Voldi mainly because of the Prior incantatem incident. Harry overpowers Voldemort by pushing the beads of light back towards Voldi. This Shows Harry's true magical power. He is much more powerful than Voldemort but just doesn't have enough magical knowledge, but after all he is only 14, Voldemort is a fully trained wizard. Morgan From glcherry at bellsouth.net Tue May 27 20:03:47 2003 From: glcherry at bellsouth.net (stardancerofas) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:03:47 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58752 Tiger Queen wrote: Why did Tom Riddle open the Chamber...(not exact but close enough>) Now me Lorrie: This has been bothering me for quite awhile. How is it, that a school that has been searched countless times by skilled Wizards and Witches nobody noticed this? I mean we can reasonably argue that the Bathroom wasn't always a bathroom. Modern plumbing was installed at some point, and no one, not the Plumber or his assitant noticed that there was a giant crater down there? Nobody ever mentioned it to the Headmaster / Headmistress? And another thing that has been bothering the heck out of me. Sirius Black was never given a trial, yet and I believe this is correct (I've simply *got* to get the books away from my Dad) Dumbledore himself said he'd given testimony that Sirius *was* Lily and James' Secret Keeper. So that means there was some sort of investigation. Nobody thought to do a Prior Incantato on Sirius' wand? Now, I know that it was a time that feeling was running rampant, instead of logic, but the WW does have wizarding laws. Okay, I'll shut up for now. If this has been addressed umpteen times sorry. Just somethings that were on my mind. Anyone have the answers? Lorrie From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 27 20:26:07 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: About Harry?s Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030527202607.59292.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58753 Morgan wrote: I think that Harry is definately more powerful than Voldi mainly because of the Prior incantatem incident. Harry overpowers Voldemort by pushing the beads of light back towards Voldi. This Shows Harry's true magical power. He is much more powerful than Voldemort but just doesn't have enough magical knowledge, but after all he is only 14, Voldemort is a fully trained wizard. Morgan ME: FINALLY somebody mentioned that. I was going to but forgot to. Yea it is very significant that he could overpower old Voldy there. Maybe Voldemort was still adjusting to his new body but, somehow I don't think so. Huggs Becky Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue May 27 20:40:14 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:40:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye References: Message-ID: <003401c32490$2dd30300$9bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58754 > > > I'll share another speculation (that I also haven't searched for!) - > > that Dumbledore isn't long for this world. Hagrid's "Great man, > > Dumbledore. 'Slong as we've got him, I'm not too worried." > > (Chapter 37 in GoF) sounds like the kiss of death to me... > > > > Thanks, > > Ann > > I've been having the same thought, partly based on the above bit, but > also based on a couple of things that Dumbledore himself says. First > is Dumbledore's comment to Harry near the end of SS/PS concerning the > imminent death of Nicholas Flamel, the one about death being but the > next great adventure. There is Dumbledore's comment to Harry near the > end of PoA concerning Harry's ability to invoke the patronus, asking > Harry if he thinks the dead ever truly leave us. (Are there similar > comments about death near the ends of the other two books?) And > finally, there is the fact that Dumbledore is quite old in either > muggle or WW terms. > > Ersatz Harry, wondering why Flamel didn't give out some elixir of life > to some of his friends Another argument for Dumbledore not making all 7 books. From what little I know of Campbell's Hero's Journey (mostly gleamed from hanging out on Star Wars boards), at one stage the wise elderly mentor must die so that the hero can ultimately fulfill his destiny. He needs the safety net the mentor figure provides for him removed, therefore the mentor gets it. Using this model, Dumbledore is a goner. On the other hand, JKR could surprise us and find a different way to do it since she has proven herself capable of doing the unexpected in the past. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 27 20:19:40 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape can't see blood! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030527201940.69167.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58755 Florentine wrote: I've noticed something very peculiar: Non of the potions prepared in potions class ever seems to contain BLOOD as an ingredient. My first thought was that students don't learn potions that contain blood, because they are black magic. - But that can't be the case that generally, because Dumbledore himself is known for the discovery of the various applications of dragon blood. So my second explanation goes into the dhampire-direction again. :-)) Snape has a distorted relationship towards blood, because his father was a vampire! Just like someone who's father was an alcoholic, and who would never let a drop of alcohol pass his threshold. I'd love to hear your theories about the conspicuous absence of blood in potions lessons! Yours, Florentine Becky: A less interesting possible explanation is that we do not see very much of very many lessons taught either in Potions or any other class. Just occasional glimpses. He very well may use blood. But if blood isn't THAT common an ingrediant then it might not be used very often. We really know very little about what goes on in the classrooms. Oh, and I would be absolutely shocked if Snape turned out to be part vampire. I think he's just a greeseball! Huggs Becky Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 27 20:48:36 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:48:36 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic (was: Petunia is a *Squib*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celyse218" wrote: > But if Lily was "turning teacups into rats", she would be violating > the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery, by > doing magic outside of Hogwarts (CoS ch 2). So either she didn't > really do any magic and Petunia was just making that up, or Lily > somehow got away with it? Any thoughts? Thanks all and sorry if > this has been dealt with earlier, I'm still quite the newbie! : ) It has been discussed before; the gist is that the emphasis should be on "reasonable", and the main reason for the prohibition is to keep muggles from learning about the wizarding world. Since Petunia's family was already aware of the WW, then it would not have been a big deal for Lily to do this sort of minor magic, though that would probably not have been true if the neighbors were visiting. Even the younger Weasleys do some magic at home (outside of Hogwarts); Ron plays Quidditch, for example, with the necessary broom-flying magic. Ersatz Harry From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Tue May 27 20:53:01 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:53:01 -0000 Subject: Modern Plumbing (was Re: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stardancerofas" wrote: > Now me Lorrie: This has been bothering me for quite awhile. How is > it, that a school that has been searched countless times by skilled > Wizards and Witches nobody noticed this? I mean we can reasonably > argue that the Bathroom wasn't always a bathroom. Modern plumbing was > installed at some point, and no one, not the Plumber or his assitant > noticed that there was a giant crater down there? Nobody ever > mentioned it to the Headmaster / Headmistress? It is kind of odd that the WW does not have electricity or automobiles or any number of other modern conveniences, but yet it does have plumbing. You'd think that there might have been some sort of wizard outhouse technology... Ersatz Harry, wondering what other muggle technology has slopped over into WW From katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com Tue May 27 20:31:58 2003 From: katie.jarvis1 at ntlworld.com (addictedtobass2003) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:31:58 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang and the heirs of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58758 tiger_queen429: <> addictedbass2003(Me): It is not an ancestor that can open the Chamber, but the heir, the chosen one. That's why an ancestor didn't open it. tiger_queen429: <> addictedtobass2003(Me): Wow this is an idea! I'd never thought of this. We don't actually know what happened to Slytherin after leaving Hogwarts. We might find out in 24 days........ addictedtobass2003 From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Tue May 27 20:46:40 2003 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (Coble, Katherine) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 16:46:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape can't see blood! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58759 > So my second explanation goes into the dhampire-direction again. > :-)) > Snape has a distorted relationship towards blood, because his father > was a vampire! Just like someone who's father was an alcoholic, and > who would never let a drop of alcohol pass his threshold. > I'd love to hear your theories about the conspicuous absence of blood > in potions lessons! > > Yours, > Florentine > > Mycropht replies: I tend to think that it is probably because blood is a strong element whenever JKR brings it up. Probably far too potent for teenagers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise protected by law. The information is solely intended for the named addressee (or a person responsible for delivering it to the addressee). If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete it from your computer. From ivanova at idcnet.com Tue May 27 20:33:25 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:33:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Spying!Snape won't happen References: <20030527.114934.-296231.1.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <002801c3248f$39ee07d0$9bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58760 Melanie Ellis wrote: > No, I really believe that: > One too cowardly to return = Karkaroff > One who has left me forever = Snape > One faithful servant = Crouch Jr. One thing that sort of stood out at me last time I reread GoF. Voldemort's actual words regarding the second one mentioned is, "One who I *believe* has left me forever." I find it interesting that he used the word "believe" in his statement. He didn't come right out and say that he has left him forever. I remember an English teacher in high school once coaching us on writing factual papers. One thing she told us is not to use the phrases "I think" or "I believe," because it implies opinion and not fact. By saying that he *believes* this person has left him forever, to me, he is admitting that he is not 100% sure this person has left him, but just that he is pretty sure he has. It is the wording of this statement that, if this phrase *does* pertain to Snape, and if his mission *is* to return to spying on Voldemort, that might just give Snape a slender way back in. Voldemort is not 100% sure of Snape being a turncoat. He could just outright kill Snape, but if he does so, it will bug him afterwards that he doesn't know for sure if he was really a traitor. Therefore, I see that Voldemort will want to be 100% sure that Snape is a traitor to him. In this case, it will be up to Snape to get back onto his good side, although it will not be pleasant. But, if I recall a JKR interview, she says he's tough, so we shouldn't worry too much about him. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From shokoono at gmx.de Tue May 27 20:41:17 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:41:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Photos and Paintings References: Message-ID: <006f01c32494$b128b2a0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58761 Hi ! I can't answer all of your auestions aswell. But what I know is that Harry herd his parents' voice for the first time when he was "attaced" by the dementors in PoA and not from the photographs in the album Hagrid gave him in the ending of PS/ SS. So this might be te clue that tey can't speak. Yes, its right that people fear Photographs could take bits of their souls in some cultures, e.g. some muslims do. I think Kelly's idea fits well. Has anybody other clues that proove this or the opposite? Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Tue May 27 20:52:18 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:52:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pets in Hogwarts [was: Wizarding Photos and Paintings] References: <5D40FC5E-8E6E-11D7-BDB5-000393827B3E@charter.net> Message-ID: <007201c32494$b1f9be40$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58762 Hi Kim! Ron was not the firs one to bring Scabbers to school. As he says in PS/SS he got it from his brother and maybe at that time rats were on the list so Scabbers allready "boarded" school some years ago... Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Tue May 27 21:08:02 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:08:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. References: <20030526164510.97849.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007301c32494$b2c328c0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58763 I agree with Becky. If you just focus GoF than you know that Moody actually shows them the spells and they have to defeat them so I also do think (and agree with McGonagal, but I don't know in which book) just not using it doesn't mean to not knowing how it works! Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Tue May 27 18:59:50 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:59:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death of One of the Trio? References: Message-ID: <006e01c32494$b04e7f40$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58764 Hi! I don't that one of them will die for a simple reason: On www.mugglenet.com you can read that JKR said in an interview that : a.. One of the main characters, one of Harry's "fans" will die (not Ron or Hermione). The death will be "horrible to write." So be sure that in book five neiter Ron nor Hermione (and of course not Harry) will die. Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From byujava at yahoo.com Tue May 27 21:36:37 2003 From: byujava at yahoo.com (Kirsten Gilson) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's parents bodies and question about Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030527213637.62048.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58765 --- Morgan The Magnificent Muggle wrote: > I was wondering what happened to James and Lilly > Potters bodies. > Since the Avada Kedavara curse leaves people > unmarked they must be > somewhere, intact. So where are their graves? Why > has Harry never > asked about this, and why has he never visited their > graves. > Kirsten says: Who says he hasn't seen his parents graves before? They could be buried at a muggle cemetary (is there a difference? It seems like both wizards and muggles could be buried at the same place) and Harry has already been to their graves. This made me think of another question. Hogsmeade is supposed to be the only pure wizard community in Britain, right? So, does that mean that muggles live in Godric's Hollow? Kirsten __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue May 27 21:36:43 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:36:43 -0000 Subject: Chamber Opening; Riddle's Ancestry; James' Sacrifice; Lily's Rats; Traitor Peter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58766 Tiger Queen asked: > Why was Tom Riddle the one to open the Chamber of Secrets? It has > been around for nearly a thousand years: why did one of Riddle's > ancestors not open the Chamber before him? Now me: The ancestor would have had to have been a Parselmouth in order to open the Chamber. Riddle tells Harry that he and Harry are "Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself" (CoS, Ch. 17). In addition, according to Dumbledore: "Of course, he [Riddle] was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen" (CoS, Ch. 18). And even despite his brilliance, it took Riddle "...five whole years to find out everything I could about the Chamber of Secrets and discover the secret entrance..." So I think it's the rare combination of needing to be both a parselmouth and brilliant enough to figure out where the secret entrance was. Tiger Queen again: > Because he was an orphan, Riddle would not have know about his > family's history learning that he was the heir of Slytherin and > that he was not of pure enough blood to belong in Durmstrang would > have started him on a path towards resentment of Muggles and his > own tainted blood that lead him to become Voldemort. Me again: This raises an interesting question ? how did Riddle find out he was a descendant of Slytherin if his witch mother died giving birth to him? Presumably he wouldn't have learned it from his Muggle father, who either didn't know or even if he did know, would probably not have told him (given his prejudice against wizards). Perhaps his mother left him one of those interactive diaries! Morgan the magnificent muggle asked: > Why doesn't James's sacrifice count? Me again: I think the key to the Lily sacrifice is that Voldemort allowed her the option of staying alive and she chose to die to save her child. As Harry hears Lily say during his Dementor flash-backs: "Not Harry! Not Harry! Please ? I'll do anything ? " and then Voldemort says "Stand aside ? stand aside, girl ? " (PoA, Ch. 12). Harry hears James say "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off ? " While we have very sketchy details of what exactly happened that night, it appears as if Voldemort was after James and Harry but Lily was optional. So it doesn't seem as if James was given the option of staying alive, so he really didn't "sacrifice" himself. Celyse wrote: > But if Lily was "turning teacups into rats", she would be violating > the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery, by > doing magic outside of Hogwarts (CoS ch 2). So either she didn't > really do any magic and Petunia was just making that up, or Lily > somehow got away with it? Me again: The only time when we've seen the Ministry enforce the Decree for the Restriction of Underage Sorcery was when Dobby dropped the pudding. When Harry inflated his aunt, and when Harry and Ron drove the flying car, there was no Ministry intervention (Arthur Weasely faced an inquiry at work about the car, but Harry and Ron got off scot-free). Since dropping a pudding would appear to be a lesser offense than flying a stolen car or inflating an aunt, I strongly suspect that Dobby rigged the letter that Harry received after the pudding incident. Which, if correct, would mean that the Ministry has never really cited anyone for breaking this Decree. Since turning rats into teacups probably qualifies as an even lesser offense than dropping a pudding, I suspect the Ministry wouldn't bother enforcing it. Becky wrote: > Of course Lord Voldemort has nothing but contempt for "Wormtail" > but I think the idea of betrayal was never an issue with Voldemort > or the DE's (at least once he was back at Voldemort's side). Me again: My theory is that Voldemort always refers to Pettigrew as "Wormtail" instead of by his real name to keep his identity hidden from the other DEs who would otherwise view him as a traitor. Voldemort himself refers to Wormtail as "worthless and traitorous" (GoF, Ch. 33). He also tells Pettigrew: "Wormtail, I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunately, fulfill neither requirement" (GoF, Ch. 1). ~Phyllis From shokoono at gmx.de Tue May 27 21:23:41 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:23:41 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Photos and Paintings References: Message-ID: <007e01c32496$72a7cdc0$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> No: HPFGUIDX 58767 Hi ! I' sorry, this mail is some kind of quick shot through the last three days, so its all a bit mixed up and answers several threats. I can't answer all of your auestions aswell. But what I know is that Harry herd his parents' voice for the first time when he was "attaced" by the dementors in PoA and not from the photographs in the album Hagrid gave him in the ending of PS/ SS. So this might be te clue that tey can't speak. Yes, its right that people fear Photographs could take bits of their souls in some cultures, e.g. some muslims do. I think Kelly's idea fits well. BTW im my German edition it is not said that the card for the choclate frog is a photograph it coud also be a good sketch or something like that. So if it was a sketch then it would explain why Dumbledore could leave without a problem ... but if it was a photograph than it would be no problem anyway. Just rememer the photograph of Harry and Lockhard in CoS... But that still doesn't make them speak... Has anybody other clues that proove this or the opposite? Yours Finchen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue May 27 21:31:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:31:02 -0000 Subject: Pets in Hogwarts [was: Wizarding Photos and Paintings] In-Reply-To: <007201c32494$b1f9be40$0900a8c0@tubs.de.rz.tubs.de> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58768 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > Hi Kim! > > Ron was not the first one to bring Scabbers to school. As he says in PS/SS he got it from his brother and maybe at that time rats were on the list so Scabbers allready "boarded" school some years ago... > > Yours Finchen bboy_mn: I think you are on the right track. At some point, Percy, the model student, got permission to have the rat Scabbers as a pet at Hogwarts thereby creating an acception to the owl, toad, and cat only rule. That premission was officially or unofficially inherited by Ron, and that allowed him to continue to bring Scabbers to school. Just a thought. bboy_mn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 22:20:38 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:20:38 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: POLL - How long should the spoiler policy stay in force? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58769 Greetings from Hexquarters! The Administration team would like your help. We have spent many hours discussing how long the OOP: spoiler policy should stay in force. After detailed and serious consideration, a strange idea floated into our Administrative brains. Why not just ask people? So we have created a poll: How long do you think the spoiler policy should stay in force after OOP is released? [ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls ] Please note that this poll is advisory only. We reserve the right to pick the end of spoiler policy date ourselves. This is because we may discover that 99% of the list wants the spoiler policy to stay in force for one week. However, the remaining 1% must wait for their copy to travel by plane, truck, pack pony, and death slide over a raging torrent, and thus would like to allow six weeks for OOP to reach them. Therefore, out of mercy to these devoted fans in remote locations, we could well adopt a policy that is not the request of the majority If you already know that you are going to have serious delays before you get your hot, sticky hands on a copy of OOP, could you let us know? E-mail us at HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com and title your e-mail `OOP delay time'. This poll will close on Saturday 14th June at 0.00 am British Summer Time Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue May 27 22:20:46 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 27 May 2003 22:20:46 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1054074046.180.13053.w65@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58770 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: How long do you think the spoiler policy should stay in force after OOP is released? o 1 week o 2 weeks o 4 weeks o 6 weeks o 2 months o Other (please elaborate by an e-mail to HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com; title it OOP Spoiler Duration) To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1098952 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From rayheuer3 at aol.com Tue May 27 22:29:24 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:29:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape can't see blood! Message-ID: <108.233fa74c.2c0540c4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58771 florentinemaier at hotmail.com writes: > I've noticed something very peculiar: > Non of the potions prepared in potions class ever seems to contain > BLOOD as an ingredient. > > My first thought was that students don't learn potions that contain > blood, because they are black magic. - But that can't be the case that > generally, because Dumbledore himself is known for the discovery of > the various applications of dragon blood. As anyone who has been following the "sacrifice" thread can tell you, I'm a stickler for precise definitions. IMNSHO, any potion that contains human (or humanoid) blood crosses the line from "Potions" to "Necromancy". What about non-human(oid) blood? Well, as has been mentioned already, it may be that Potions containing such things as Dragon's blood would be too advanced for the classes we've observed. Then again, I doubt we have been told of *every* potion Snape's classes prepare, just the ones being prepared when "interesting" things happen. In any case, we may see Harry taking lessons in advanced potions as he reaches the higher grades. HRH are eligible to become Prefects now, so fifth-year Potions (or DADA or Conjuring - all the classes the students have been taking for four years) probably get into some of the *really* hairy stuff. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue May 27 21:40:43 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:40:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape can't see blood! Message-ID: <133.20474b5c.2c05355b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58772 In a message dated 5/27/2003 3:58:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, florentinemaier at hotmail.com writes: > My first thought was that students don't learn potions that contain > blood, because they are black magic. - But that can't be the case that > generally, because Dumbledore himself is known for the discovery of > the various applications of dragon blood. > Hello! Newbie here, but had to weigh in on this one: First off, we're not told the ingredients of EVERY potion made in EVERY class. They may have made potions containing it that we weren't told of. Also, potions containing blood may be done only in Advanced Potions, in the seventh year. (Dragon's blood, BTW, may not LITERALLY mean the blood of a large retile - it's also an herb, used in incenses, & it makes a lovely ink.) As for potions containing human blood - I would think that they would definitely be considered Dark magic, as the only way to get it is to cause harm to someone (even if that someone be yourself), & it seems to me that the WW definition of Dark magic is that which is intended to cause deliberate harm (such as the Unforgiveables). Just my 2 Knuts... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue May 27 21:46:30 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:46:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye Message-ID: <75.11e5ebe3.2c0536b6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58773 In a message dated 5/27/2003 4:42:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ivanova at idcnet.com writes: > From what little I > know of Campbell's Hero's Journey (mostly gleamed from hanging out on Star > Wars boards), at one stage the wise elderly mentor must die so that the hero > can ultimately fulfill his destiny. He needs the safety net the mentor > figure provides for him removed, therefore the mentor gets it. If not dies, at least becomes unreachable - as Merlin with Arthur. Though it is possible that Trelawney has been set up as a medium, who may later channel some of Dumbly's wisdom, I think was can expect to lose the old geezer either late in 5, or early in 6. Which, depending upon WHEN it happens, & what the situation is at that time, may give us an interesting replacement - from what I'm given to understand, the Deupty Headmaster/Headmistress doesn't necessarily get the job as a permanent replacement... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Tue May 27 22:26:07 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 00:26:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Modern Plumbing (was Re: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED3E5FF.5050502@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 58774 Ersatz Harry napisa: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stardancerofas" > wrote: >> Now me Lorrie: This has been bothering me for quite awhile. How is >> it, that a school that has been searched countless times by skilled >> Wizards and Witches nobody noticed this? I mean we can reasonably >> argue that the Bathroom wasn't always a bathroom. Modern plumbing was >> installed at some point, and no one, not the Plumber or his assitant >> noticed that there was a giant crater down there? Nobody ever >> mentioned it to the Headmaster / Headmistress? > > It is kind of odd that the WW does not have electricity or automobiles > or any number of other modern conveniences, but yet it does have > plumbing. You'd think that there might have been some sort of wizard > outhouse technology... Well, plumbing is in fact very old invention. It was widely used in ancient Rome. Romans used aqueducts and lead pipelines (plumbing is based on latin word plumbum meaning lead) to deliver water to building, and huge network of sewers to take waste from building to Tever river. (BTW. those aqueducts were so good that some are still in use today!) So, it is entirely possible that such convieniences were installed at Hogwarts when the castle was build. That raise interesting question: how old is WW? I mean, when exactly Wizards and Muggles created their separate societies? Was it first cities (8000 BC?), ancient Egypt (4000 BC?), ancient Greece (400 BC?), or perhaps Charlemagne (800 AD?). One might wonder if WW suffered the same setbacks as Muggle societies -- Dark Ages in Medieval Times, black death and the like... I personally belive, that such separation took place in ancient Sumer or Babylon (3000-2000 BC), because there were a civilisation as we know now with laws, schools, letters, banks, diplomacy, spies and of course magic. Regards, Pshemekan From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Tue May 27 23:55:57 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 16:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] question about Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <20030527213637.62048.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030527235557.76951.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58775 Kirsten wrote: <<>> and now me (Odile): In PS, when Hagrid met up with DD and McGonagall on Privet Drive, he mentioned that he "got [Harry] out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around." So, whatever "Godric's Hollow" is/was (village? manor? estate? street?), Muggles were aware of it - at least by what happened to the house! From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed May 28 00:41:54 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 00:41:54 -0000 Subject: Snape can't see blood! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58776 Florentine wrote: > I've noticed something very peculiar: > Non of the potions prepared in potions class ever seems to contain > BLOOD as an ingredient. I haven't heard that one before! Bonus points for originality, I say! I think the reason the potions don't use blood is because Snape *drinks* it all! That's why the students' potions tend to backfire and don't work well so often. ;-) Cindy -- waving at Pippin From tahewitt at yahoo.com Wed May 28 01:07:03 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wizard Photography In-Reply-To: <1054069886.7739.15234.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030528010703.86598.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58777 A few weeks ago (May 7 to be exact, message #57198) I posted the following: "...I was wondering the other day about wizard photography. What would the image look like if you photographed an inanimate object, like an empty chair? Would the chair in the photo move? Maybe you would see the person who last sat in it. Where does the ability to show motion lie-in the photograph iself or in the subject of the photo?" I'm currently re-reading the HP books in preparation for the 21st, and found the following in CoS. Colin Creevey is speaking to Harry after meeting him for the first time and asking to take his photo. It's in the American hardcover edition, pg. 96: "...and a boy in my dormitory said if I develop the film in the right potion the pictures'll move." This seems to me to come close to an answer. It's the development process that causes motion. Wizard photography is dependant on magical potions to achieve motion. Still doesn't tell me what a wizard photo of an empty chair would look like, however. Tyler __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From azevedan at yahoo.com Tue May 27 23:11:15 2003 From: azevedan at yahoo.com (azevedan) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:11:15 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rhosyn4u" wrote: > Whatever the gleam meant (and I subscribe to the prevailing theory > that it has something to do with Voldemort's ultimate downfall), I > don't think it means that Harry is completely protected from > Voldemort, because that would pretty much put an end to the story. Interesting point; but, on the other hand, I can't see Harry having three more face-to-faces with Voldemort in the remaining 3 books. I think there will be one last meeting, in the last book, and then we'll see what it meant. It's (the Gleam of Triumph) has been introduced too recently to play out any time soon, no? In any event, the waiting until the 21st is making me nuts. I always get the English versions of the books (even though I live in the US), but, this time, I actually sprung for *both* versions, so I can have one on the 21st (buying the US one is cheaper than FedEx from the UK, which would still take 4-5 days, anyway). This way, I'll read the US, pass it on to someone or donate it to the library, and have the UK to reread. Ann From yellows at aol.com Tue May 27 23:42:12 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 19:42:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death of One of the Trio? Message-ID: <560A3010.660C40BA.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58779 In a message dated 5/27/2003 1:59:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Finchen writes: > > Hi! > I don't that one of them will die for a simple reason: > On www.mugglenet.com you can read that JKR said in an interview that : > a.. One of the main characters, one of Harry's "fans" will die (not Ron or Hermione). The death will be "horrible to write." > > So be sure that in book five neiter Ron nor Hermione (and > of course not Harry) will die. I hadn't heard that it would be one of his fans. Very interesting. What constitutes a fan, then? Would McGonagall count? Or does JKR just mean any character like Dobby or Colin? Also, has anyone considered that the death might not be permanent? What if, say, Neville gets offed by LV in some horrible way, but then comes back, stronger than before? Could there be a distressing death scene, followed later by a Phoenix-like rebirth? Brief Chronicles From Mhochberg at aol.com Wed May 28 01:39:55 2003 From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:39:55 EDT Subject: Hermione's Place (was Ron's Place) Message-ID: <155.1f868c56.2c056d6b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58780 Koticzka" said >> Hermione is as wise as Ravenclaw. There is no canon on purity of blood being a Ravenclaw feature, but that is how I see them. ? Since Hermione is verging on being a workaholic, I would consider putting her in Hufflepuff (accent on consider!). << I don't know about a workaholic but I will grant knowledgeaholic. My thinking goes like this: If Hermione is the smartest student in the school, why isn't she in Ravenclaw? She is in Gryffindor because of her bravery (or her choice to be brave). Does that mean that she is braver than she is smart? And considering how smart she is, what does that say about her bravery? And where will this lead in books 6 & 7? ---Mary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From akhillin at rcn.com Wed May 28 00:50:31 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 19:50:31 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Basic Physics - was [all eyes] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58781 From: pickle_jimmy wrote: > This may be a little OT, but I just wanted to clear up the Red + Green sparks concern... When I did my first Physics class, I was horrified to learn that they had lied to me... What I thought of as Red, Yellow and Blue were actually Magenta (a "type" of Red), Yellow, and Cyan (a "type" of blue)* [Anita Hillin] What you learned in Physics was primary LIGHT color, which is likely a better reference to the sparks than the first primary color wheel you learned, which is PIGMENT color. Primary light colors are red, green, and blue, and the secondaries are amber, cyan and magenta. All three together make white, by the way. Red and Green do, in fact, make yellow or gold in light, so the combination of the two light sparks could create a gold color. By the way, I learned that in Theatre Stagecraft. ;-) akh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Mhochberg at aol.com Wed May 28 01:51:54 2003 From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:51:54 EDT Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58782 "Ersatz Harry" said >> I've been having the same thought, partly based on the above bit, but> > also based on a couple of things that Dumbledore himself says. First > is Dumbledore's comment to Harry near the end of SS/PS concerning the > imminent death of Nicholas Flamel, the one about death being but the > next great adventure. There is Dumbledore's comment to Harry near the > end of PoA concerning Harry's ability to invoke the patronus, asking > Harry if he thinks the dead ever truly leave us. << I have to agree. I don't think Dumbledore is going to live through all 7 books. OTOH, I do think he will be back after his death. Whether it is Gandalf-like and he is reborn (which I doubt), ghostlike as is the Fat Friar (which I also doubt), or something else, Dumbledore will not forsake Harry. Remember "Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it" or something like that! ---Mary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maidne at yahoo.com Wed May 28 02:06:00 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 02:06:00 -0000 Subject: hair and heir Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58783 Just a few thoughts about heirs, provoked by recent threads: 1) If Godric Gryffindor was red haired, maybe the Weasleys, rather than Harry, are the true heirs of Gryffindor. 2) Given that Tom Riddle was abandoned by his father, and his mother died soon after he was born, it is possible that he knew (knows) little or nothing about his ancestry. Whether he was blood related or not, he must have studied Slytherin's life to have found out about the Chamber of Secrets and how to open it. With no way to prove or disprove his lineage, he may have proclaimed himself Slytherin's heir simply based on their shared gift of parseltongue. It would seem to fit for an unhappy, orphaned child to dream of being an unknown member of an important family. Susan From tepmurt at hotmail.com Wed May 28 02:30:17 2003 From: tepmurt at hotmail.com (tepmurt9981) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 02:30:17 -0000 Subject: Why Spying!Snape won't happen In-Reply-To: <002801c3248f$39ee07d0$9bccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58784 > > Melanie Ellis wrote: > > > > No, I really believe that: > > One too cowardly to return = Karkaroff > > One who has left me forever = Snape > > One faithful servant = Crouch Jr. > > Then, Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > > One thing that sort of stood out at me last time I reread GoF. Voldemort's > actual words regarding the second one mentioned is, "One who I *believe* has > left me forever." I find it interesting that he used the word "believe" in > his statement. I agree. Not to mention the fact that V used absolutely no names. To me, this appears to be typical JK misdirection. Of course she could always be doubly tricking us. Perhaps she has gotten us used to her red herrings, but this time she's being straightforward. JK's a smart gal, I wouldn't put it past her. -tepmurt *utterly confudled* From a4annielauss at msn.com Wed May 28 02:39:16 2003 From: a4annielauss at msn.com (rhosyn4u) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 02:39:16 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: <75.11e5ebe3.2c0536b6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58785 MadameSSnape at a... wrote: >it is possible that Trelawney has been set up as a medium, who may >later channel some of Dumbly's wisdom. I agree that Dumbledore will probably bite it sometime in the series, but if he does I sincerely hope he's not given some way of speaking to Harry from the dead. That would be WAY Star Wars ("Run, Luke, run!" "Use the force, Luke!"). I doubt JKR would do that. ~annie =) From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Wed May 28 03:03:16 2003 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 03:03:16 -0000 Subject: Pigs and Hogs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58786 I've checked and checked... And was unable to find this around. So, I thought I would bring it up. Maybe it's just a British thing (that was my mum's thought). But it isn't quite normal to have this much *pork* in a book, in my humble opinion. HOGwarts HOGsmeade HOG's Head PIGwidgeon PIG snout (the password) Hagrid gives Dudley a PIG's tail when he gets upset (On an unimportant side note, Gertie Keddle invented the knee- reversing hex to use on a man whom she referred to as a "great hairy HOG.") I suppose this wasn't a blinding flash of deeply penetrating insight, but I was intruiged. When given the importance of wizard pets thus far in the book, I expect that Ron's Pig will prove to be of some signifigance. Any thoughts? Becky, who is glad she doesn't keep kosher. From tepmurt at hotmail.com Wed May 28 03:09:26 2003 From: tepmurt at hotmail.com (tepmurt9981) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 03:09:26 -0000 Subject: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tepmurt9981" > wrote: > > <<_Fat Friar_ - Described as "a fat little monk" (SS Chpt.7, > pg.115, hardback ed.) > > A friar is a member of certain Roman Catholic religious orders. > They differ from monks in that friars are not bound to a specific > monastery and are expected to travel and work/beg for a living. > Traditionally, friars are not allowed to own property > (infoplease.com). > > So, if a friar is traveling around and living off of charity, you > wouldn't expect him to be fat. <<< > > Ali responds:- > > One of Robin Hood's Merry Men was a fat friar: Friar Tuck. The idea > of having a fat friar is already well established in British > folklore. Who knows, the Fat Friar could even be Friar Tuck. > > > >>> The Grey Lady_ - seen, but not named, in Chapter 12 of PS/SS, > this ghost is described as "a tall witch." > > > Could this possibly be a pun? Grey as in "intelligent," for one > would assume that she was in the Ravenclaw house when she was > alive. Grey could also mean "old," which the Grey Lady will never > be.<<< > > Ali again: > > The Grey Lady is a ghost said to haunt many places in Britain - York > Minster being one such place. She's generally said to be Lady Jane > Grey who was named by Edward the 6th as his successor, but reigned > for only 9 days. Despite being an innocent pawn in the proceedings, > she was later executed by Mary the 1st. Lady Jane Grey was indeed > meant to be a gifted scholar. I think she was around 16 when she > died. > > Ali This question is for anyone: Any guesses as to the identity of the other two ghosts? I was thinking perhaps George Jeffreys for the Bloody Baron. He was an English judge who was associated with the Popish Plot. His rulings resulted in what are known as the "Bloody Assizes," totalling in over 300 deaths. This is just a guess though. -tepmurt From jhlupin at hotmail.com Wed May 28 03:15:33 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 03:15:33 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye can't last forever In-Reply-To: <75.11e5ebe3.2c0536b6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58788 > ivanova at i... writes: > > From what little I > know of Campbell's Hero's Journey (mostly gleamed from hanging out on Star > Wars boards), at one stage the wise elderly mentor must die so that the hero > can ultimately fulfill his destiny. MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > If not dies, at least becomes unreachable - as Merlin with Arthur. Though it > is possible that Trelawney has been set up as a medium, who may later channel > some of Dumbly's wisdom, I think was can expect to lose the old geezer either > late in 5, or early in 6. Some Loopy thoughts: The centaurs have read it in the stars...AD is a goner, almost certainly by the end of OOP. Given JKR's affection for the Lord of the Rings, I would not be suprised to see AD pull a *Gandalf* and return as an even more powerful version of himself. Is this what really refers to? Voldemort has been reborn more powerful and more terrible than ever: Dumbledore dies to later become reborn, and in many ways Harry has been as good as dead, only to be at the last minute (the night of his parents' murder, and at the end of all 3 of the first books). Interestingly, Harry becomes stronger with each , but this may just be his normal development. I am a little suspicious that he has acquired a resistence to poisons following his basilisk as the acromantula bite to his leg in GoF had no serious consequence. Back to bloodlines, my very expensive British tea leaves seem to say that the Weaslys have some very special blood in their veins. Given the family names seem to suggest the Monarchy in general and Arthurian Legend in many cases, I say the lot of them are descendant from Merlin himself. I know, how great could he be, he wasn't even a founder? But the leaves seem very clear on this... JH - most certainly abashed that he has cost his house at least 50 points with his most recent ramblings From jodel at aol.com Wed May 28 03:39:32 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:39:32 EDT Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20About=20Harry=E2=80=99s=20Power?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58789 >Morgan: > I think that Harry is definately more powerful than Voldi mainly because of > the Prior incantatem incident. Harry overpowers Voldemort by pushing the > beads of light back towards Voldi. > >Huggs Becky: >FINALLY somebody mentioned that.?I was going to but forgot to. Yea it is very significant that he >could overpower old Voldy there.<< The Changeling hypothesis covers that one, as does the theory of a power infusion along with the gift of Parseltongue. There are a number of variants that account for it, but they all do assume that in the amount of raw power, Harry is more gifted than typical for wizards. Myself, I think that it is not only so much the amount of power but the origins of that power. I really do think that Harry is managing to resist Voldemort because he is, one way or another, managing to use Voldemort's own power against him. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jodel at aol.com Wed May 28 03:40:03 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:40:03 EDT Subject: Dumbledore's testimony (was;Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore) Message-ID: <11.12199965.2c058993@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58790 Lorrie writes: > Sirius Black was never given a trial, yet and I believe this is correct > (I've simply *got* to get the books away from my Dad) Dumbledore himself said > he'd given testimony that Sirius *was* Lily and James' Secret Keeper. So that > means there was some sort of investigation. > Probably the equivalent of a coroner's inquest on the Potters. The inquest would have found the cause of death as being foul play with implications of responsibility on Black's part, although no one seems to have assumed that he was the one who killed them. Sirius never was brought to trial for killing Pettigrew and 12 Muggles. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed May 28 03:42:05 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:42:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Names of the Hogwarts Ghosts Message-ID: <2f.3a1fef8f.2c058a0d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58791 In a message dated 5/27/2003 11:22:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepmurt at hotmail.com writes: > Any guesses as to the identity of the other two ghosts? > > I was thinking perhaps George Jeffreys for the Bloody Baron. He was an > English judge who was associated with the Popish Plot. His rulings resulted > > in what are known as the "Bloody Assizes," totalling in over 300 deaths. Given that Hogwarts is in Scotland - & given the history of the Scots nobility - could be any of HUNDREDS... How about Bothwell? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed May 28 05:06:21 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 00:06:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Spying!Snape won't happen References: Message-ID: <000c01c324d6$e1b606b0$9dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58792 > > > > Then, Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: > > > > One thing that sort of stood out at me last time I reread GoF. Voldemort's > > actual words regarding the second one mentioned is, "One who I *believe* > has > > left me forever." I find it interesting that he used the word "believe" in > > his statement. > tepmurt continued: > I agree. Not to mention the fact that V used absolutely no names. To me, this > appears to be typical JK misdirection. Of course she could always be doubly > tricking us. Perhaps she has gotten us used to her red herrings, but this time > she's being straightforward. JK's a smart gal, I wouldn't put it past her. This is the way I see it. If Snape has been assigned what many of us believe to be the obvious mission, spy on Voldemort by "returning" to the fold, then Voldemort's throwing in the word "believe" will be his way back in. It gives Snape a loophole. Instead of killing first and asking questions later, Voldemort will give him a chance to explain before AK'ing him. On the other hand, if Snape's mission is something other than spying like he did in the last war, then I'm sure that Voldemort meant that statement like many of us have taken it: that if he lays eyes on Snape again, Snape is a dead man. I do not believe (yes, here I go using that word now) that the statement was meant as a red herring. I think that Voldemort *was* talking about Snape in that line, but the exact intent is what is open to interpretation. I really do think the key is in the word believe, as she knew many (including myself for over a year) would take that line to mean that Snape was very much a dead man in Voldemort's eyes. In this situation, it's a case of every word counting when it comes to true meaning. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Wed May 28 05:12:16 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 00:12:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye References: Message-ID: <001001c324d7$b5b2fa40$9dccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58793 > I have to agree. I don't think Dumbledore is going to live through all 7 > books. OTOH, I do think he will be back after his death. Whether it is > Gandalf-like and he is reborn (which I doubt), ghostlike as is the Fat Friar (which I > also doubt), or something else, Dumbledore will not forsake Harry. Remember > "Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it" or something > like that! > > ---Mary I agree, help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it. We can easily take that to mean that Dumbledore himself will always be the one providing that help. But I don't think that to be the case, especially since many of us agree that he will not survive the series. For many people at Hogwarts, Harry will end up being the one to provide the help. But who will help Harry, I hear people asking right now. He does get help from many quarters, though. Ron, Hermione, and Hagrid have all been known to help him in the past. For some reason, I have the feeling that, if Harry should ever find himself in a situation where Dumbledore was dead, he was in dire need of help and he actually asked for it, that Snape would help. There is also Fawkes to consider, as perhaps the other teachers. There are many places from which help can come, and they don't always include Dumbledore. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 28 05:46:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 05:46:50 -0000 Subject: Modern Plumbing (was Re: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: <3ED3E5FF.5050502@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" wrote: > > That raise interesting question: how old is WW? I mean, when exactly > Wizards and Muggles created their separate societies? ...edited... > I personally belive, that such separation took place in ancient Sumer > or Babylon (3000-2000 BC), because there were a civilisation as we > know now with laws, schools, letters, banks, diplomacy, spies and of > course magic. > > Regards, > Pshemekan bboy_mn: Well, this doesn't help solve the mystery but I wanted to point out that Ollivander's was established in 382 B.C. SS/PS Am PB pg 102 "The last shop was narrow and shabby. Peeling gold letters over the door read Ollivanders: Makers of Fine Wands since 382 B.C." That would imply that the wand makers art was truely an established art at that time, so I would have to believe to origins of the wizard world pre-date that time substantially. If we look at primitive (shaman, witch doctor, medicine man) societies, magic has been at the foundation of all of those, and of course, those societies all included their 'magic men'. So I would say that the wizard world is easily as old as you speculated and perhaps even older. It could be at the foundation of the lost 'worlds' like Atlantis, and Shangri La. It would answer many mysteries like how could the pyrimids get build with such primitive technology? Easy with magic. Just a thought. bboy_mn Just a thought. From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed May 28 05:45:33 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 01:45:33 -0400 Subject: TBAY: Crouch Redux (tiny bit of SHIP) Message-ID: <00a501c324dc$5b0eaf80$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58795 Note: This post is primarily an unconscionably late response to Elkins' nine-part study of Bartemius Crouch Sr., posted last December (##47927, 47929-34, 47962, and 47966), and Eileen's responses thereto (## 47976, 47979, 47997, 48024, 48100, 49332, 49869, 51788, and 54507) as well as Eileen's Percy as Tragic Hero (#45402) and Elkins' reply to Eileen's Solzhenitsyn's Russia Meets the Wizarding World (#52254). All of the dialogue in this post (except my own) is taken from those posts. My apologies to all for the tardiness, but I decided to wait until Eileen had completed her responses, and then had trouble finding the time to finish the last bit, not to mention thinking that too much time had passed and some of my points had been raised by others in the meantime, but the revival of the subject a week or two ago provided fresh impetus. Because it's so long, here's an executive summary of what it covers: (i) Crouch's hamartia; (ii) his political behavior, in particular how he rationalized his actions at the DE trials, whether there was evidence to support their guilt, and whether he needed to appeal to the public for support to rise to the MoM position; (iii) his role and motives in rescuing Barty Jr.; (iv) whether Crouch secretly or subconsciously desired Voldemort to rise again; and (v) his redemption scene. I also sneak on board the Crouch-Winky SHIP. ********* Debbie passed through the front doors of the Canon Museum. Quickly scanning a map she had picked up at the information desk, Debbie slipped down a side corridor. Her steps echoed her steps as she walked briskly to the entrance to a small side gallery. The gold-letters above the doorway read "Bartemius Crouch Memorial Gallery." It was a very small gallery. On the far wall hung just two paintings: To the left, "The Lictors Bring to Brutus the Bodies of His Sons" by Jacques-Louis David, and to the right, "Saturn Devouring His Son" by Goya. On the left side stood something closely resembling a cathedral side altar. Coming closer, Debbie noticed that except for two lit candles, all the votive cups were filled with CRABCUSTARD. On the wall above the altar hung a portrait of an elderly man, dressed in an impeccably crisp suit and tie. The parting in his short gray hair was almost unnaturally straight, and his narrow toothbrush mustache looked as though he trimmed it using a slide rule. There was a similar altar on the opposite side, with a battered hobby horse laid on top. An inscription on this altar read "Sic Semper Tyrannis." "Elkins? Eileen?" Debbie called. Two pops were heard, and they appeared before her. "I beg your pardon. I didn't want to disturb you, but I'm finally ready to talk about your Crouch novennas." "Why, you're positively Entish," remarked Eileen. "I guess I am, a bit. I was prepared to let it alone, but people started talking about Crouch again, so here I am. Let's just say I have my own affective fallacy and wish to lay it humbly before you." Elkins' eyes brightened. "I'm very interested in other peoples' affective fallacies," she said enthusiastically. "I hardly know where to start," Debbie confessed. "How about Crouch's hamartia?" Eileen recited, "The belief that people should do as he disposed him, that he did not have the responsibility to treat them as people first and foremost. This shows up in all his actions, down to his final dismissal of Winky. . . . Barty Crouch Sr. did not let love (any of the four loves) dictate his relationships with others. He used people and therein lies his downfall." "That just doesn't make sense to me." "You don't think he used people?" asked Eileen incredulously. "No, I certainly can't argue that, but I don't think that *is* his flaw. I think love - or the desire for a return of his love - dictated *everything*. I think his flaw is that he lacks any sense of his own self. His use of others is merely an extension of his willingness to be used by others. He has self-worth only to the extent that it's reflected in the approval of others, so he bends to their will. As you said, Elkins, 'Crouch views other people as mirrors to himself; he looks to his reflection in their eyes to know what he truly is.' Look at what Crouch was like when we first met him. Just like that portrait over there." Eileen looked up, startled, then turned her eyes to the portrait above the crab custard cups. "Remember? 'Mr. Crouch had complied with the rule about Muggle dressing so thoroughly that he could have passed for a bank manager.' . Crouch was so fanatical about rules that he cared about whether his *ancestors* broke the law. " Debbie scrutinized Crouch's portrait for a moment. "Slavish adherence to rules is a refuge for the weak. It's the easy choice, employed by those who lack confidence in their own judgment. It's one thing for Percy, who is still in his teens, to use the rules as a crutch, and quite another for Crouch, who is a head of department and a member of an old, highly distinguished wizarding family. See, for all his power and position, Crouch has never truly grown up." Elkins nodded. "As I see it, the Crouch family subplot focuses on developmental issues that are absolutely central to adolescence, as well as to GoF as a whole. The Unforgivable Curses are all about identity loss, really, aren't they? Ali pointed out that the UCs all deny others the right of self-determination." "But it all fits, though, doesn't it. If Crouch himself saw slavish adherence to the rules as the *right* way, would he even understand the concept of losing one's right of self-determination? That's what happens to the rule-bound. They can't, or won't, think for themselves. It's most telling in Crouch's political behavior - he does what the mob wants - just as Pilate released Barabbas instead of Jesus., Crouch gave them Sirius Black and his son." Elkins broke in, "But those sorts of measures [that Crouch took, like authorizing the use of the Unforgivables on suspects,] are utterly ineffective against terrorist or insurrectionist threats. You don't really think that the politicians *themselves* believe that when they say it, do you? They don't. They know full well that those measures are ineffective. . . . Their function is to cement the political power of those who control their use." "Not necessarily," replied Debbie. "When terrorists strike, they create an atmosphere of fear. And the first thing the public demands is retribution. They want the perpetrators found at all costs. They're quite willing to sacrifice a few fundamental freedoms for that to happen. It happened after 9/11, and it happened during the sniper attacks. Didn't you admit that 'people love politicians like Crouch in times of war because when people are frightened, they are willing to accept an unusually high degree of tyranny." Elkins nodded. "In fact, if only they become frightened enough, then they actually embrace it. They *want* to submit themselves to a strong authoritarian figure." "Indeed. But isn't it also true that when these crises arise, the politicians in office typically permit such measures not to demonstrate their power but to reassure a frightened public. Dumbledore says as much with regard to the Longbottom affair. 'Those attacks caused a wave of fury such as I have never known. The Ministry was under great pressure to catch those who had done it.' At such times those in power become desperate to demonstrate that something is being done - and the way they do this is to accede to the demands of the populace and institute authoritarian measures. Perhaps the question to ask is whether Crouch stepped in because he *was* a ruthless authoritarian, or whether he deprived suspects of their civil liberties because he believed the public wanted him to do so." "We are told," Elkins said meaningfully, "That they made Crouch *popular*." "Maybe they did. But did he really need their support? It seems to me that rising in the Ministry has as much to do with one's pedigree and connections as it does with public acclaim. That's the implication of Dumbledore's statement at the end of GoF that Fudge has always placed too much reliance on so-called purity of blood. The Crouches, of course, have those qualification in spades. Sirius describes him as "a great wizard" and "powerfully magical" and he is from an old pureblood family. He has a house-elf. "But I haven't seen any evidence that Crouch would need to stand for election to the MoM position. He was "tipped" for the job. In other words, the leadership had selected him as heir apparent. (1) Sirius says Crouch rose quickly through the Ministry. I think he rose quickly through the Ministry because of who he was - a powerfully magical wizard from an old family - and not because of what he did. He wouldn't even have had the authority to issue those edicts until he became head of DMLE. "I submit that Crouch Sr., by virtue of his background and magical ability, was right in the career path to be "tipped" for MoM before Voldemort ever appeared on the scene. He rose quickly through the Ministry not because he positioned himself as a hardliner but because he had the credentials that the Ministry is far too fond of. Yes, Crouch wanted to satisfy the public's need for reassurance. But this was done to prevent vigilante justice from taking over, or a coup against the Ministry." Eileen glanced around nervously. "Good thing Cindy isn't here, or she'd be yelling 'bloody coup' right now and waving her FEATHERBOAS." "What about the trials?" Elkins demanded. "The trials show that Crouch was indeed in the habit of sacrificing people to his political ambitions, and the Pensieve Four, guilty though they may have been, were indeed among the people so sacrificed, just like Sirius Black was." "But the evidence against Sirius was quite strong, and the Council *did* hear it. Dumbledore himself gave evidence that Sirius was the Secret Keeper. Sirius was at Godric's Hollow the night the Potters died. Sirius was (from all the public knew) caught redhanded, Pettigrew's finger was available as evidence, and a street full of Muggle eyewitnesses (whose memories were conveniently modified afterwards) swore that Sirius killed Pettigrew. Crouch Sr.may have bowed to public sentiment to put Sirius away permanently without trial (or at least any trial he recalled), but he must have convinced himself that no harm was done because Sirius was obviously guilty. "Let's move on to Karkaroff." "Yes," said Elkins. "Karkaroff's crimes are very similar to those which will apparently drive Crouch to righteous fury when confronted with the Longbottoms' assailants: serving the Dark Lord, torturing wizards. . . . We don't see any of that righteous fury at Karkaroff's hearing, though. Crouch cuts a deal with Karkaroff and allows him to walk free, even though by doing so he offends at least one of his Aurors, who believes that he is being too lenient. . . . Crouch has authorized the use of the Unforgivables. Yet he does not resort to the Cruciatus Curse to wrest Karkaroff's information from him. He chooses the carrot, not the stick.. Why? . . . Because nobody is watching him, that's why. Karkaroff's hearing is a closed hearing." "So what? It's a plea bargain, a standard prosecutorial tactic. And it's not a secret, either, or at least not after Karkaroff is released. This deal seems to be common knowledge. Moody condemned what Crouch was doing, but the cop out on the street always resents it when the prosecutor doesn't throw the book at a suspect that the cop risked his life to catch. But that doesn't make Crouch's treatment of Karkaroff evil. Would you rather have had him use Cruciatus to get the information when Karkaroff so kindly *offered* to rat on his colleagues?" Elkins and Eileen both blanched. "I thought not. Besides, Cruciatus may have been useful to coerce a confession in order to convict Karkaroff, but Crouch needed testimony from Karkaroff to convict anyone he named, and that's much better when it's obtained willingly. Scum though Karkaroff may be, the deal Crouch did with him doesn't bother me at all. Contrast this to the DEs who walked free by claiming Imperius." "Lucius Malfoy," Elkins said. "Crabbe, Nott, Goyle, McNair -" "Avery," Eileen gently reminds her. "And the Lestranges," added Debbie. "According to Sirius, they talked their way out of Azkaban, too. He doesn't mention Imperius, though. Really, we don't *know* if anyone claimed Imperio other than Lucius and Avery. "So let's focus on Lucius. He seems to be very able to get what he wants, through a few threats and careful disposition of his funds. A place for his son on the Quidditch team. A seat in the top box. Dumbledore's suspension as headmaster. How much do you think it cost Lucius to buy the jury at his trial? And perhaps the juries of his sycophants and protectors as well? I don't think Crouch was very happy about it. It expect that it contributed to his, uh, overexuberance at the trial of the Pensieve Four. Have you ever thought that Barty Jr. sought them out *after* listening to his dad ranting at home about how the guilty DE's sleazed their way out of Azkaban? "Now, Bagman's trial. We know that Crouch despises Bagman - Winky tells us in ch. 21 that Crouch told her bad things about Bagman. We know Crouch miscalculated badly in prosecuting Bagman at all. I believe he took the risk, though, because Bagman had something Crouch resented - Bagman's charisma. Poor Barty Crouch, though, couldn't make himself charismatic if his life depended on it." "I disagree," whispered Eileen, clutching a cup of crab custard. "I've mentioned my first emotional response to Crouch Sr. on the list many times. Sympathy. And of course, that response to his . . charisma." "Well, perhaps he has a certain kind of charisma, which only the privileged few can recognize. The Percys of this world, yes? "Anyway, Bagman's trial was a huge turning point for Crouch. Crouch clearly thought Bagman was guilty, but he also relished the idea of putting a popular public figure in Azkaban. He gambled that the desire of the public for retribution against the DEs would trump Bagman's popularity, and he lost. What happened at Bagman's trial, however, set the stage for Barty Jr.'s trial, in which he was determined to do what the public wanted, and do it very thoroughly." Debbie ambled over to the votive stand. She picked up one of the crabcustard votives and sniffed it, all the while staring intently at Crouch Sr.'s portrait. "Did I ever mention the one thing that really sickens me about the Pensieve Four trial? It was those 'I have no son!' histrionics". Eileen looked as though she were contemplating crying. "Yes. I don't want him to have done that! He couldn't have done that!" "I should have thought that the kangaroo court itself would have bothered you more than the denunciation," said Elkins. "Sending people off to effective death sentences without much at all in the way of evidence." "But there was evidence. Based on what Dumbledore says, the case against the Pensieve Four was built around the Longbottoms' testimony. Dumbledore tells us that the Longbottoms' testimony wasn't *reliable* but I think his statement doesn't really make sense. How could the Longbottoms even give testimony if they are so insane they don't recognize their son? How can they possibly identify suspects? Either there's a huge flint there or something is missing in that story. "That's where my old Memory Charm theories come in handy. You know, the ones where I proposed that it was Memory Charms rather than the Cruciatus Curse that drove Mr. and Mrs. Longottom insane? (2) One of the tenets of this theory is that the Ministry (read: Fudge) either had the evidence it needed and Memory Charmed the Longbottoms to cover their own misdeeds or broke a Memory Charm that had been placed on them to get the information they needed. As a result, the Longbottoms ended up insane, but Crouch had all the evidence he needed to convince him that his son was guilty. See, I have absolutely no problem with Crouch prosecuting his son if the evidence warranted it. It was his duty and any attempt to let him off would have reeked of nepotism. But for him, it wasn't enough to convict his son. He needed to deny him publicly as well. And that's what cost him his political star in the end." There was a short silence, broken by Elkins. "I read the Pensieve mob as out to get Crouch." "The wizarding world couldn't have felt very good about itself," said Eileen slowly. . . "They had to regret supporting some pretty horrible things. So, naturally, they would have turned their anger on Crouch. They wanted him gone. Because he reminded them of themselves. He was their faulty mirror." "True," mused Debbie. "But I don't think they realized that until *after* the Pensieve Four's trial. They were right with him at the trial. They only figured this out later, as they reflected on Crouch's actions, and that's when they turned on Crouch and decided that he just didn't love Barty Jr." "I think they loved the denunciation," Elkins replied. "They ate that up - just as Crouch knew they would. Because I am convinced, you know, that he was playing to the crowd a bit with that." "But," Debbie countered, "isn't it pathetic that someone of Crouch's stature would find such actions necessary? Because he didn't need public support to keep his position. He needed them for his own self-esteem. He pandered to them so excessively so as to throw away a job opportunity that was his for the taking. Crouch didn't crave power. He had power. What he craved was love and approval. It explains everything - why he authorized the Unforgivables, why he acceded to public demands to convict the pensieve four, why he rescued his son. But every accession to the wishes of others sank him deeper into the hypocrisy that would ultimately destroy him, because from the moment he rescued his son, everything else became secondary to protecting his secret. Crouch sacrificed everyone who cared for him to protect his son and his secret." "He had a choice," spat Elkins. "What would *Brutus* have done?" Elkins looks long and hard at the image of Brutus on the wall, then continued. "He could have made it humane. Far more humane than death in Azkaban, that's for sure." "Elkins! No! The Livian way is not the right way!" Elkins looked away from the painting at Debbie, who said quietly, "He had a third choice. A choice that would have released him from the tangled web of hypocrisy he wove for himself." Debbie looked hard at Elkins. "He could have turned himself and his son into the authorities. That's what he *should* have done. That choice would have been even harder than killing his son. Filicide would at least have had side benefits for old Barty. It would conveniently have destroyed the evidence of his own crime. On the other hand, I don't think he could bring himself to do such a thing." "Yes!" cried Eileen. "I've never believed Barty Jr. that his father didn't love him." A choking noise was heard from Elkins' corner. "Crouch is not about *love*. Crouch is about domination. . . . primarily Crouch is all about the denial of volition. And that's not compatible with love." Debbie interrupted, "Wait a minute! Who rescued Crouch Jr. from Azkaban?" "I don't think that saving his son from Azkaban was only Crouch's wife's error. I think that it was also his own," Elkins admitted. Debbie nodded. "I'd go a step further. Raise the yellow flag if you will, but I'm not convinced that the whole rescue wasn't Crouch Sr.'s idea and he talked his reluctant, cancer-ridden wife into it. True, Crouch Sr. left his son with the impression that it was Mrs. Crouch's idea. He had to. How can you tell your son that you sent your wife unwillingly to Azkaban? But is it true? See, I think the trial and the rescue were all part of a single big plan. It was an act of love on Crouch's part. And it went completely unrequited." "I think that in the end, Crouch saved his son because he wanted to," Elkins said grimly. Eileen nodded. "I like that interpretation very much, you know, but you did say that Mrs. Crouch was trying to manipulate her husband's emotions in the pensieve scene." Debbie nodded, too, but then frowned. "But what if she's weeping for herself? What if she had *already* agreed to take his place in Azkaban? Those tears are equally consistent with those of a woman watching her own death sentence, trying to reconcile herself to her fate, and, of course, making sure her husband was fully aware of it." Debbie shrugs her shoulders. "It's not inconsistent with the text, is it?" "Barty Jr. seems to have thought his father was unfaithful to his mother, by leaving her to be buried in Azkaban. Or even to die there," mused Eileen. "Right," said Elkins. "Winky seems to occupy the role of his wife. . . . Or his mistress. It actually was my instinctive reading, you know." "That's because you're BENT, Elkins," Eileen whispers loudly. "I don't think so. She acts like she's in love with him," says Elkins quietly. "Even Ron notices that, and Ron is a fourteen-year-old boy. . . He says it without a trace of sniggering or contempt or irony or hyperbole." "'Hmmmph! . . I thought it was a poor choice of wording on Rowling's part." "I disagree, Eileen, Debbie chimed in. "I think Rowling *wants* us to read that line as Elkins does." "How do you know this?" "It all goes back to the mandrakes." "The mandrakes?" echoed Eileen. "What do they have to do with Winky?" "The life cycle of the mandrakes, which Rowling seems to have presented as a little joke in CoS, IMO served notice to adult readers to pay attention to this sort of language and authorized us to credit Elkins' interpretation of the Crouch-Winky relationship. There's nothing subtle about that line - She's hitting us over the head with a brickbat so we'll wake up to the fact that something is going on there. Sorry, Eileen, but Rowling wrote these books for herself, and I can't reject Elkins' reading simply because many readers find it repulsive. *I* happen to like it." "See, Eileen?" said Elkins. "It *is* there!" She turned to Debbie. "Did you spot all those other sexual undertones, too? Like Voldemort in the graveyard?" Debbie suddenly became very interested in Eileen's crab custard cups. "Erm . . . back to the subject!" Elkins began again, very softly, "Do you want to know why I think that Crouch Sr. was so terribly invested in keeping his son alive? Do you? Do you really?" she continued, beginning to spit out her words. "I think that it was because obedience was a virtue that Mr. Crouch . . . wanted to teach him before he died." Debbie shook her head gently. "But why? You yourself agree that at a minimum Crouch was talked into the rescue of his son so easily - something so incredibly risky to his career - do you really think he did all of this just to teach him a lesson?" "I instinctively read it as an attempt at indoctrination," Elkins said flatly. "Imperius. Invisibility Cloak, yet kept in public view. Presumed dead. Permitted to speak to no one. Watched night and day. Denied sunlight. Denied solitude. Given rewards for good behavior, rewards which went by the degrading name of 'treats.'" "But that's Barty Jr.'s own derisive term for it! You remarked yourself on his word choice in speaking of his father's acts, how he called his father a smuggler and his mother a savior? I agree with Eileen. Is it not better to be at home, where one can look out the window, see the sun, converse with other sentient beings? How is this worse than being tormented by the Dementors in a dark Azkaban cell? He gave his son every comfort that he could while still protecting the secret. Remember when Harry went to Hogsmeade with Hermione in GoF wearing his Invisibility Cloak? Hermione even remarked about how people were looking at her because she appeared to be talking to herself. Can you imagine how odd it might have looked to see Winky following him around the neighborhood. She would have looked *quite* suspicious. That's why at the QWC, everything was very carefully arranged so that Winky would never be seen wandering around with Barty Jr. in tow. The rescue of Barty Jr. gives old, stiff, hypocritical Barty Crouch Sr. just a tad of humanity. And under the circumstance, the Imperius Curse does not seem excessive. He *was* a convict, you know. And prison is *supposed* to reform!" Elkins shook her head vigorously. "Crouch's actions after the QWC make it very difficult for me to believe that his wife ever had to put all that much pressure on him to get him to agree to rescue their son. He seems far too invested in his son's life for me to believe that. He seems far too determined to keep him alive, and not only alive, but also free from physical restraint. . . . It's almost as if he secretly *wants* his son to escape, don't you think?" Debbie nodded. "In a way, he did. He despised himself, and his son's escape would relieve him of the burden of keeping the secret. See, I think Crouch thought Barty Jr.'s escape would have exposed his own crime - without his having to take any affirmative steps. However, he didn't envision that Crouch Jr.'s escape would have come at Voldemort's hands and would be accompanied by a disguise that would prevent that revelation. "But I can't believe that even at a subconscious level Crouch Sr. *wanted* Voldemort to rise again. All he needed to do for that to occur was to be careless with the Imperius Curse. But he successfully kept Barty Junior under the curse for twelve years. On the other hand, as soon as he realized that his act of mercy had failed and would turn out to aid and abet Voldemort's return, look what he did. In a matter of months, Crouch Sr. was able to shake off the Imperius Curse sufficiently to *walk* to Scotland to confess to Dumbledore. He tells Harry his sins - Bertha, his son - punctuated with the mantra - my fault . . . all my fault. That language is straight out of the confessional - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. To do that while under Imperius - a curse that wipes away "every thought and worry" - was an extraordinary feat of will. It says to me that he had principles all along, but that he somehow believed he wasn't subverting them. Because he has nothing to gain from this; it's political suicide, if not a ticket to Azkaban for himself, because he can't properly warn Dumbledore without fully confessing his sins. How ironic that only when it's most difficult, when his free will has been taken away by Imperio, only then does he shed his hypocricy and do the right thing." Eileen nodded again. "Hypocrites don't usually like many aspects of themselves, egotists though they are. They set standards and fall short of them, but they still believe in the standards. And they try to convince themselves that they aren't falling short . . ." "Exactly!" cries Debbie. "Crouch always wore a mask. He was a tormented hypocrite who despised himself. He knew it and he knew his son knew it. His life was a lie, yet he maintained the mask in public as long as he could. However, when he realized he had set in motion Voldemort's return to power, he began *very* quickly to attempt to shed the curse and the mask. Ultimately, I find Crouch Sr. to be almost as sympathetic as Eileen does, though I stop well short of declaring him to be dead sexy." "Yes," cried Eileen, grabbing a cup of crab custard from the votive stand and offering it to Debbie. "A large number of people agree with my emotional reaction to Crouch Sr. Is it the fact that some people tend to see Crouch as not only offering the choice between what's easy and what's right, but also facing that choice?" "But what clinches my sympathy is that redemption scene. Just once, he made the right choice, the hard choice. And he died for it, without ever truly delivering his warning." Debbie hesitantly accepted the cup Eileen offered and took a small taste. "Ah, sweet! But I don't think I'll be able to finish it - this kind of custard is a bit too rich for me." Shaking her head, Debbie handed the cup back to Eileen. "Oh," said a crestfallen Eileen. I thought perhaps I'd found another customer. Cindy's ordered an entire carton, you know. I guess we're finished, then?" Eileen turned back to her altar. "Finished? I haven't even started yet! I didn't come here to talk about Crouch at all. This was just prelude. I really want to talk about Mr. Crouch's obedient son." "Yellow flag! He only had one son!" "No, not his biological son. I mean his enthusiastic, loyal prot?g?." Eileen's eyes lit up. "Percy?" One of my favorite subjects!" "But let's step outside for that," said Debbie. I think it's a bit dangerous to be discussing Percy in front of Mr. Crouch's shrine, don't you?" Additional References: (1) In # 27171, David suggested, in his typically delightful style, a highly plausible process of selecting the Minister of Magic involving an old wizard network and a smoke-filled room, which completely captures my vision of the process. (2) My Memory Charm theories were first posted in #36889, and were summarized by Elkins in Part III of the Memory Charm Symposium, #38848. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed May 28 05:46:51 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 01:46:51 -0400 Subject: TBAY: Percy as Tragic Hero Message-ID: <00af01c324dc$897299e0$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58796 Note: This post was originally written months ago in response to comments made by Eileen in #49110, but it never got posted. The door to the Canon Museum swings open, and Debbie, Eileen and Elkins emerge, blinking in the bright sunlight. Debbie runs down to the Theory Bay beach and the others follow. As Eileen catches up to Debbie, she grabs Debbie's arm and begins sternly but breathlessly. "Percy. Is. Not. Evil." Eileen pants. "Well, at least not in a Voldemort style, but he idolized Crouch. . . He was 19 and, not unlike Harry, not in the least apathetic about these things. He must have known what Crouch had done, and he apparently approved." Eileen buries her head in her hands, wailing, "Oh, my poor dear Percy who evidently believes using the Cruciatus curse on suspects is acceptable." "Do you think so?" replies Debbie in a consoling voice. "In my mind, Percy spent GoF in wide-eyed, youthful, idealistic ignorance of Crouch Sr.'s sins. The younger generation in general seems woefully ignorant of events during Voldemort's first reign of terror. Remember how at the QWC Ron knew nothing about the Dark Mark? The older generation seems to be very reluctant to talk about the past at all. I imagine that the reluctance to discuss what went on then would be redoubled at the Ministry, which doesn't exactly have a sparkling record to tout. The fact that almost all of our information about Crouch Sr. comes from the Pensieve (Dumbledore's private memories), from Sirius (who has a personal grudge against Crouch), and from a veritaserum-induced confession, supports the conclusion that it's a Time That Must Not Be Named or Mentioned. So unless Percy has spent time doing research on his boss's past, he probably believes Crouch was what he pretended to be: strictly rule-abiding, a strict but fair enforcer, working hard to improve standards." Eileen nods thoughtfully, but says nothing. "Yes," Debbie continued, "*we* know Crouch is a hypocrite. He practices the Dark Arts. He subverts justice. He doesn't really practice all those virtues Percy prizes so much. But Percy doesn't have a window to that side of Crouch's character. He won't get a look at the Pensieve, and he's not going to hear Crouch Jr.'s side of the story. Fudge took care of that when he allowed the Dementor to administer the kiss to Crouch Jr. I think it's unlikely that Fudge would allow the real truth about Crouch Sr. to come out. Better to let the mysterious disappearance of one of Fudge's own department heads remain an unsolved mystery in order to leave Crouch's reputation (and, by extension, Fudge's) intact. And though Bill Weasley is on his way to alert Arthur so that the Ministry employees will know the truth, Bill did not hear Crouch Jr.'s confession and, therefore, neither will Percy. So I believe the Ministry will be able to provide whitewash, and Percy will accept it." Eileen stares out into the Bay, lost in thought. Suddenly she turns back toward Elkins and Debbie, her eyes glittering. "Percy, though, would be a Livian, don't you think? A real one. He has the capacity to be everything Crouch pretended to be. Percy could be evil. Very evil indeed. As well as a tragic hero." "Hmm. Percy may have Livian tendencies, at least if that means he could condemn a family member to Azkaban for life if he thought it necessary to preserve the public good. Is that what you mean? But I can't agree that living up to his own conception of his role model would make Percy Evil, or even a tragic hero. Under Percy's rose-colored view of the Crouch model, rules are obeyed and justice is meted out fairly. No Realpolitik. "As I said before, I have no problem whatsoever with Crouch's willingness to prosecute his son. If there was sufficient evidence for a trial, then it was Crouch's (or his department's) duty to seek a conviction to the best of his abilities, or to recuse himself. Were Percy to turn in, testify against, or otherwise take action to condemn a family member to Azkaban, tragedy might ensue, but it would be a Weasley family tragedy, not a Percy tragedy. As long as Percy didn't know in his heart of hearts that the family member could not have been guilty (and if he's increasingly estranged from his family, as the trend in GoF suggests may happen, he is likely to be without crucial information), he is not a Tragic Hero, because in that case Percy would have done The Right Thing. There might be a tragedy if the Weasley family blamed Percy for doing his duty, but that wouldn't make Percy the tragic hero. He would have made the difficult choice, not the easy choice, and suffered the consequences. Isn't that what we learned from Crouch Sr.'s example? Allowing the guilty (or even the probably guilty) to go free because of nepotism - whether done outright or under cover of Polyjuice and Invisibility Cloak - is contrary to the greater responsibility of protecting the commonweal." Eileen nods enthusiastically. "Yes, I like that interpretation." "At least, that's how I'd like Percy to react. In fact, long, long ago, when I was relatively new to the list, I suggested (##37513 and 37604) that the implied parallel between Crouch Sr. and Percy was *not* a red herring, that Percy would someday face the same choice vis-?-vis a family member (Imperius!Ron, anyone? Blackmailing Twins?) and that, like Crouch Sr., he would incarcerate a blood relative if he believed that wizarding law required it. I also said that there is only one difference between Crouch Sr. and Percy. Percy could 'do a Crouch and turn in his own brother, but it would make his stomach churn.'" Eileen frowns. "So you don't think Livian Percy would make a good tragic hero?" "No, but I'm not so sure that Percy is a Livian in the first place. Percy has no way of learning the lessons of Crouch Sr. In fact, he might have trouble accepting the truth about his idol if he did hear it. Sadly, Percy is perfectly positioned to repeat the errors of his boss because he lacks the information he needs to assess Crouch Sr. realistically. Because, to use an old saying, those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. As a result, I think Percy has definite Tragic Hero possibilities." Eileen brightens somewhat. "I've got the Tragic Hero checklist right here." She pulls a well-worn sheet of paper from her pocket and begins to unfold it. "You do? Maybe you can answer a question that's been puzzling me. I was a teenager when I last studied tragic heroes, but I had always understood a tragic flaw was not some grave character deficiency; it was a virtue carried one step too far." "Exactly," said Elkins. "In order to fulfill the criteria of the archetypal tragic hero, I think that a character really needs to exhibit some degree of purity of motive. So Crouch isn't a Tragic Hero." "Hmm. Percy's like Crouch, and then he isn't. He's young. He's idealistic. He has new ideas. He's also ambitious. He wants to get ahead, and he wants others to notice his accomplishments. He also expects - and gives - obedience. But what's Percy's greatest virtue? It's not his mania for rules. And it's not his ambition. What do the Percy defenders always cite when the Evil!Percy accusers speak up? "We cite his loyalty to his family. We point out how concerned he was for Ginny in CoS, how much he appreciated being asked to spend Christmas with his brothers in PS/SS. And we especially point out how in the Second Task he abandoned his post at the judge's table and ran into the lake after Ron. How he *wouldn't* do that if he really valued his career above his family. "I'm beginning to wonder if Percy could turn in a family member if necessary. Or if he could follow through. What if Percy secretly aided a convicted family member? Let's take a worst-case scenario, in which Percy knows a family member is innocent but either cannot bring himself to commit career suicide, or else is powerless to help, but attempts a Crouch-like rescue afterwards. In other words, could he, to use Ron's words, really 'do a Crouch'." Eileen interrupts. "Is there anything in canon to suggest that he might do this? Does Percy ever show a willingness to violate the rules? In secret? For personal reasons?" "Why, yes," responds Debbie. "During CoS Percy spent a bit of time sneaking around to empty classrooms for secret meetings with Penelope Clearwater. While it's not clear that this was a violation of the rules, Snape's attitude towart fraternization between the sexes at the Yule Ball suggests that it is, as Snape took house points away from the transgressors. Besides, Percy's already under a lot of stress at the MoM, and he was hauled out for questioning in connection with Crouch's disappearance. None of this will look good on Percy's record, giving him added temptation to do it the Crouch way. That, not his willingness to condemn a family member pursuant to the rule of law, is what would make Percy a true tragic hero. Because I think any such action would be doomed to fail. For one thing, Percy lacks the Crouch family's acting talents: that's why he presents such an inviting target to the Twins - he cannot feign indifference. Anyway, Eileen, let's look at how Percy measures up against the remainder of your Tragic Hero criteria." Eileen recited, "Noble Stature - The tragic hero does not start down in the dumps." "I think Percy's stature is sufficiently noble. He's a former Head Boy who earned buckets of O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s. He has earned a coveted place in the Ministry. He appears to be Molly's favorite child." Eileen continued, "Nobility in tragedy also refers to virtue." "Percy's got that, too. Don't we Percy fans like to cite his professed desire to use his ministry position to champion reform as evidence of his virtue? Don't we find it *disappointing* that no one but Penelope will listen to him?" Eileen nodded and went on with the list. "Free Choice - It is important that a tragic hero . . . fall on account of his own free choice. Fate or chance can conspire against him, but in the end he must destroy himself. Remember Macbeth in this regard. He did not have to follow the dicates of the witches, but he did." "I don't think anyone seriously doubts that it will be up to Percy to choose how to react to events, even if he is pressured by Ministry colleagues to act in a certain way. Eileen scaned the rest of her list. "I think it's too early to assess the other criteria." "Well, let's remember what they are, anyway." "Okay. The Punishment Exceeds the Crime -- The tragic hero always gets more than he deserves. This may not mean exactly that he only does X and he gets punished enough for X and Y. It generally means he gets more than anyone deserves. "Increased Awareness -- The tragic hero needs to understand how things went wrong, how he went wrong. "Catharsis." "There are definite possibilities here, don't you think, Eileen?. Even some quite Bangy ones. Percy suspended on a catwalk over a river of lava desperately trying to reach his family to undo what he's done before it's too late. Percy tormented forever by the tragic consequences of his actions. Or Percy throwing himself into the lava in needless self-sacrifice as atonement. Poor Percy." Debbie just about finished cleaning out her drafts folder in advance of OOP release [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 28 06:06:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 06:06:15 -0000 Subject: Pigs and Hogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gopotter2004" wrote: > ...edited... But it isn't quite normal to have this much *pork* in a > book, in my humble opinion. > > HOGwarts > HOGsmeade > HOG's Head > PIGwidgeon > PIG snout (the password) > Hagrid gives Dudley a PIG's tail when he gets upset > bboy_mn: JKR got the name for Hogwarts (I believe) from a flower she had seen in a botanical garden. [can someone verify this, I'm working from memory... a very bad memory] So I suspect once she had the name Hogwarts, the 'Hog' theme just sort of took over. What better town to be next to a place called Howarts than Hogsmeade especially if you have a thirst for meade? What better name for a pub in Hogsmeade than Hog's Head? Winged boars at the gate... etc... Just a thought. bboy_mn > > ... given the importance of wizard pets ..., I expect that Ron's Pig will prove to be of some signifigance. Any thoughts? > > Becky, bboy_mn: So the question is, 'Is Pigwidgeon just a cute diversion, or is he going to be significant?'. The answer is, 'I don't know, but I think.... I think Pigwidgeon will do something significant before the end of the book... save a life or something like that, but I find it highly unlikely that he is an animagus mostly because that's aready been done. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kemp at arcom.com.au Wed May 28 06:52:12 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 06:52:12 -0000 Subject: Quirrell and the Troll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58798 Scene 1: PS/SS - Everyone is in the Great Hall - Enter Quirrell Harry was just helping himself to a baked potato when Professor Quirrell came sprinting into the hall, his turban askew and terror on his face. Everyone stared as he reached Professor Dumbledore's chair, slumped against the table, and gasped, "Troll -- in the dungeons -- thought you ought to know." He then sank to the floor in a dead faint. Scene 2: PS/SS - H&H are making their way to the Stone A disgusting smell filled their nostrils, making both of them pull their robes up over their noses. Eyes watering, they saw, flat on the floor in front of them, a troll even larger than the one they had tackled, out cold with a bloody lump on its head. Scene 3: PS/SS - Harry confronts Quirrell at the Mirror of Erised Harry: "You let the troll in?" Quirrell: "Certainly. I have a special gift with trolls -- you must have seen what I did to the one in the chamber back there?" Now my Question(s): Wouldn't the other staff have known what each one was doing to protect the stone - especially if it involved large three headed dogs, or stinky mountain trolls? And... If they knew about Quirrell's gift with trolls, wouldn't that raise questions regarding the earlier fainting episode? And... Why did he knock the troll out - surely if he'd just got round it it would have made a great rear-guard? Pickle Jimmy From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed May 28 08:49:49 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:49:49 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Courtesy request Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58799 Hi Fellow listies, Has anyone noticed that from time to time threads become very repetitive? Sometimes it seems as though we are all so eager to respond to one post, that we forget to read the rest of the thread. When this happens, there is a danger that we may actually say the same thing that somebody else has only just said. To prevent threads from becoming repetitive, please, please, please read a thread before you decide to post. This should help to stop us all from getting swamped when OoP comes out. We are aware that Yahoo can take time to post some messages so there will inevitably be some repetition, but with your help, this can be limited. For those who read their messages in digest-format, perhaps you could check via web-view to see if anyone has already posted, before you hit the send button. When someone has already said what you wanted to say, or if you simply think "me-too", there is nothing to stop you from e-mailing that person off-list and saying so. Counting down to June 21st The Administration Team From koticzka at wp.pl Wed May 28 10:15:02 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:15:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Spying!Snape won't happen Message-ID: <004401c32502$a88ea9b0$105c63d9@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58800 brassgryphonn wrote: >>Dumbledore is not that dumb. True, Harry probably skimmed the Six Missing in his retelling, but still, Snape is a teacher at Dumbledore's school and is quite literally serving "that champion of Mudbloods and commoners". I doubt Snape would be able, or even supposedly able, to get around that. Plus, there's more of his background on the way. He could have blanched for any number of reasons. Finally, even when the Dark Mark began to appear on his arm, he said that he would remain at Hogwarts. Obviously, he "knew what he must do" by then as well. So no, the obvious theory probably won't carry.<< ****Koticzka comments: Well, it would be difficult to convince Voldie of Snape's faithfulness, especially after a little chit chat with Quirrell. I do not think that any wavering in Snape's devotion to V. would be any problem, as the Dark Lord is in need of servants. So, the Potions Master would be considered lazy, slow, cowardly perhaps - but at the end, he would probably be accepted back. Quirrell, on the other hand, makes me more confused. But if Snape is not a spy, do you have any suggestions? Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Wed May 28 10:16:06 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:16:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Sacrifice. / Sorting and Character Traits Message-ID: <004501c32502$af93b0c0$105c63d9@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58801 SORTING elfundeb wrote: >>My theory is that the Hat doesn't simply try to figure out which characteristic is most dominant, or try to get a mix in each house. Rather, it looks to which house will best help the individual recognize and develop those traits. Hermione doesn't need any help sharpening her intellect, but she underestimates her own bravery (as in her speech to Harry in PS/SS before she drinks the potion). Ron has significant fears, the biggest one of which, in my book, is his fear of failure. What better place than Gryffindor to help him come to grips with that fear?<< ****Koticzka's question: Would Slytherin House be an exception? What kind of features do they lack that would lead to them all being gathered together? Was the Hat's policy to enhance one's personality? Taking into consideration that the Sorting Hat has much more sense than anyone else and is fully or at least partly conscious of its choices and their consequences, my theory is that the Hat will save Hogwarts by executing a subtle plan and ignoring students basic personality for a greater good. However, I am open to hearing other opinions, and I will consider them with curiosity. HARRY'S SACRIFICE If you risk something, it means you are ready to sacrifice it. An additional condition for sacrifice is that you must be conscious of what you are risking. I do not intend to discuss the definition of sacrifice, just making a short point to clarify my opinion. MmeMalkin wrote: >>I agree. Sending someone else to their death is a command decision. (A Star Trek NG episode comes to mind, where Deanna Troi was in officer training and was tested on her ability to send a crewmate on a suicideassignment.)<< ***Koticzka's comment: As I do not know German, I am not sure whether this was also the subject of another Star Trek episode I happened to watch, where Captain Piccard was thrown by Dr Q (???) into three different continua and in each of them the only solution to save the world / space / continuum was to sacrifice the ship with the crew. Considering Harry's ability for sacrifices, I cannot stop thinking of this situation, where the only solution is really to sacrifice someone's life. And no sacrifice would be bigger for him than to sacrifice something that is not his, like someone else's life. Being on your own is quite easy especially for a person who has an overdeveloped sense of responsibility... Do not take this negatively, but I have a hard time finding people who are responsible instead of those who FEEL responsible. These two things are not the same. rayheuer3 wrote: >> Healed and healed and healed again. << ***Koticzka's comment: Yes, and it is only Harry who is hurt. Even Ron as a victim in the chess game was not Harry's choice to sacrifice, but Ron's own choice. So it is still not THE sacrifice we all feel he will have to make. Have at least some of you seen "Sophie's Choice" with Meryl Streep? I wonder, would children understand and appreciate Harry's choice? The truly painful wounds are the invisible ones. Ray Heuer again: <> AnneMehr responded: >>How do you see so much of that assurance in the books? << **Koticzka's rambling: I just cannot resist. Sacrifices made by Harry are cheapened by any sort of prize, like Dumbledore's points for the Gryffindors. That might not change Harry's attitude, or make the choice less painful. For the reader, though, it might change a lot, especially when the reader is not eager or conscious enough to consider circumstances in the world where the prize will not be given. How can we talk of any kind of sacrifices then? Annemehr also wrote: >>The only "sacrifice" I can think of, is when Wormtail cuts off his own hand for Voldemort's potion. In this case, he is sacrificing one hand to save his whole life, so I'm not sure this counts. And then, he *was* promised the silver hand afterwards. ;-)<< ***Koticzka comments: There is no way for me to prove my point - but (omitting the details of that particular bargain),Wormtail's sacrifice seems quite clear and tangible (how very touching). I do not mean to make Wormtail into a hero, no way! My thought is that it is something we all can feel shuddering and shivering in our bones. Risking one's own life comes naturally in stories like this, and this is why the reader might not find it as shocking or painful. Everybody knows that (usually) there is a happy ending. There is nothing to indicate that JKR will deviate from this standard. What could have been felt as really painful was the loss of the Cup. The heroes cannot lose their lives, as it is still a fairy tale, but there is no such certainty about the Cup. The farther we go, the more surprising the stories are. But they still keep to the usual standards from the very beginning to the very end. So, reading the fairy tale, one expects some common events - like life risking adventures. From a kid's point of view, of course. Grownups, as we are (supposed to be), spot the problem differently, as our priorities are in different places (whether these are the proper priorities is a different question). Darrin commenting on one of my previous posts reminded me of Harry's words to Ron that if they failed "there would be no Qudditch Cup!" The little one WAS actually conscious of priorities. Whether he was conscious of the danger, risk, and possible sacrifice - that is another question to consider, with absolutely no answer, even in all five books. A good psychologist could not be sure, either. Let's try to review a kid's point of view. Risking one's life is only a fairy-tale standard, and thus would be acceptable. But the Cup is another story. Think about the choice to buy bread or a doll. One has to have bread and it is beyond the capabilities of most children's perception (unfortunately, not every child) to have nothing to eat. Not having a doll, on the other hand, is something unique, a real risk, which CAN happen in child's mind (think about Hermione's "We could be killed or even worse - expelled"). Then again, in our adult world, the greater risk is not connected with ourselves, but rather with our beloved. We do not think, "let me not be ill, I do not want to suffer" but, "let me not be ill - otherwise what will my family do? My children will suffer, who will take care of them?" or, "Take me instead. Let him live happily". We consider the real disaster to be the pain of our beloved. This is what we cannot stand, and we sacrifice ourselves rather than allowing it. And still, until we do face the pain, it will stay "untouchable" though obvious. So JKR should probably create three-dimensional sacrifice - that of one's own life, one's friends (not yet, but perhaps in the future), and more tangible prizes like Cups. And perhaps the bigger sacrifice might be to endanger someone like Snape, rather than Ron, who, as a friend, would be expected to follow his friend and risk as much as Harry? To cause the death of someone that Harry has no right to ask for anything, nor to expect anything from, as they have nothing in common personally (in spite of saving Harry's life from time to time)? Darrin asks what the point is in here. ***Koticzka's suggestion: It is an auction - how much Harry will have to bear by the end of the seventh book. Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koticzka at wp.pl Wed May 28 10:17:01 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:17:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death of One of the Trio? / Re: Lily and the deal with the devil Message-ID: <004601c32502$b8d73620$105c63d9@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 58802 SnapesSlytherin wrote: >>What if that's how one of the Trio dies? (snip) It could happen anytime between OoP and Book Seven...but I think if one of them dies it will be later than OoP.<< ***Koticzka's opinion: No canon for this, but all three of them are needed: Strategy=Ron Cleverness / Knowledge = Hermione Bravery plus Leadership = Harry. These elements, connected by friendship, will be necessary to fight Voldemort. I'd be willing to bet on it... would consider a bet... Maybe...perhaps. Oryomai wrote: >>Okay, let's say, for the sake of this, that Snape was in love with Lily. He finds out that the Dark Lord wants to kill the Potters. Snape goes to Lily and says that they're marked for death. Lily goes to the Dark Lord and says that, in exchange for Harry's/her life, she'll give him James. *shrugs* She's Desperate!Lily. She doesn't know he'll keep his word, but she figures that at least she's trying to save her son. Or something like that.<< ***Koticzka's rambling/mumbling I suggested an earlier bargain - something that was arranged in advance, that would save Harry's life later on, in exchange for someone else's life (see "Who's whose Heir", I believe). Koticzka How can you hurt a man who has nothing? Give him something broken. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Wed May 28 12:23:53 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:23:53 -0000 Subject: About the gleam of triumph... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58803 Maybe I've missed it in the long thread, but I'm not seeing the entire passage being quoted. pg 604, GoF. "For af fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." Something like triumph could be a lot of different things and Harry only saw it for an instant anyway. I know the prevailing wisdom is that V-Mort took on a weakness/virus or some kind when he used Harry's blood, but something just doesn't wash about that for me. Dumbledore looks as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him. That suggests frustration, even despair. I don't know, if there truly was now a way of bringing down V-Mort, that the gleam of triumph would be so fleeting. The "D-Dore will die" theory is sound. Perhaps at the moment when he looks old and weary is when he knows that this will not happen without his death. Kinda like Gandalf going into the mines. Darrin From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Wed May 28 08:20:11 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 04:20:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrell and the Troll Message-ID: <39.391c467b.2c05cb3b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58804 Pickle Jimmy said: Now my Question(s): Wouldn't the other staff have known what each one was doing to protect the stone - especially if it involved large three headed dogs, or stinky mountain trolls? And... If they knew about Quirrell's gift with trolls, wouldn't that raise questions regarding the earlier fainting episode? And... Why did he knock the troll out - surely if he'd just got round it it would have made a great rear-guard? Me: No, the other teachers don't know about each others enchantments - Quirrell had to investigate each one in order to get to the stone, which is why it took him a year to attempt it. Snape several times asked him how far he was getting, and of course the most obvious one was Fluffy, because its the first thing he faces at Halloween. Of course the teachers knew that each other was protecting the stone, since Hagrid knew there were other enchantments, but they don't know what they are. Quirrell was expecting to just see the stone once he got past all of them but of course, Dumbledore's last enchantment he hadnt bothered to research. Because he wasnt expecting it. I am guessing, that every teacher knew about Fluffy because they would have to know to keep students away from the 3rd corridor. So, with them not knowing about Quirrells gift with Trolls, they wouldnt of suspected anything on Halloween (except for Snape). To your last question - We are not entirely sure what his 'gift with trolls' is? Maybe his gift is that they can't harm him even if they try, or maybe he can talk to them, or maybe he can make them do what he wants - it depends on his gift, either way, the troll probably got in his way, but the true answer to your last question, I really don't know. We can only gues, unless someone else has a logical explanation. Nic x x [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From renimar at yahoo.com Wed May 28 08:26:47 2003 From: renimar at yahoo.com (M. J. Pascual) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:26:47 -0000 Subject: WW/Muggle Split (Was: Modern Plumbing) In-Reply-To: <3ED3E5FF.5050502@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" > That raise interesting question: how old is WW? I mean, when exactly > Wizards and Muggles created their separate societies? Was it first > cities (8000 BC?), ancient Egypt (4000 BC?), ancient Greece (400 BC?), > or perhaps Charlemagne (800 AD?). One might wonder if WW suffered the > same setbacks as Muggle societies -- Dark Ages in Medieval Times, black > death and the like... There's a timeline at the Harry Potter Lexicon (a fine HP site) with a magical timeline that estimates that the Muggle/WW split developed over the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. The link is here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/timeline_history_magic.html The 14th century is an excellent breakpoint, historically. The outbreak of the Black Plague could have made wizards and witches scapegoats, driving the wizarding world into hiding for good. The advent of the Renaissance keeps them there as science pokes its head out and muggles begin relying on empirical methods to explain and manipulate the world. "M.J. Pascual" From renimar at yahoo.com Wed May 28 08:34:43 2003 From: renimar at yahoo.com (M. J. Pascual) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:34:43 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Place (was Ron's Place) In-Reply-To: <155.1f868c56.2c056d6b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58806 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mhochberg at a... wrote: > If Hermione is the smartest student in the school, why isn't she in > Ravenclaw? > > She is in Gryffindor because of her bravery (or her choice to be > brave). > > Does that mean that she is braver than she is smart? And considering > how smart she is, what does that say about her bravery? I recently found the FAQ created from postings and musing from this mailing list, including a comprehensive treatment of Hermione (among others.) Included is a discussion on her Sorting into House Gryffindor rather than Ravenclaw: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hermione.html The FAQ was a good way to kill a couple of hours. (What do you mean you work at work? :) "M.J. Pascual" From mpe at anacon.freeserve.co.uk Wed May 28 10:21:37 2003 From: mpe at anacon.freeserve.co.uk (hydrxuk) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:21:37 -0000 Subject: Modern Plumbing (was Re: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" > > It is kind of odd that the WW does not have electricity or automobiles > or any number of other modern conveniences, but yet it does have > plumbing. You'd think that there might have been some sort of wizard > outhouse technology... Plumbing is a technology over 2,000 years old. The WW does have automobiles, the Knight Bus, Ministry cars and the horseless carriages. Electrical devices do not work well in proximity to magic. In many ways it's the Muggle World (MW) which is playing catch up. Flying brooms (and carpets) predate any form of aviation. Owl post only requires you to know the name of the person you wish to contact, not where they might happen to be at the time. Muggle communication technology has just recently managed portable video conferencing. But has yet to manage any form of teleportation. "hydrxuk" From distractedone at comcast.net Wed May 28 11:54:49 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 07:54:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sacrifice References: <001001c32314$73c0d040$0d9e253e@takun> Message-ID: <000901c3250f$f22712d0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58808 > Darrin wrote: > In the hospital for a few days in PS/SS, broken arm in CoS, nearly > killed on the broomstick and nearly soul-sucked by the dementors in > PoA, burned against the dragon, leg and arm injuries against V-Mort > in GoF. Actually it was Cedric that got burned by the Swedish Short-Snout during the first task of the TriWizard Tournament GoF ch20 pg359. Harry on the other hand was struck on the shoulder and cut by one of the spikes on the tail of the Hungarian Horn Tail GoF ch20 pg355. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 28 14:38:13 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:38:13 -0000 Subject: Snape can't see blood! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florentine Maier" wrote: > I've noticed something very peculiar: > Non of the potions prepared in potions class ever seems to contain BLOOD as an ingredient. > > My first thought was that students don't learn potions that contain blood, because they are black magic. - But that can't be the case that generally, because Dumbledore himself is known for the discovery of the various applications of dragon blood. > > Far be it from me to cast doubt on Snape's vampire connection, but Dumbledore's field is alchemy. Maybe using blood in alchemy is allowable, but using it in potions, which are meant to be ingested or absorbed into the bodies of living beings, isn't. JKR did mention that one of the uses of dragons' blood is oven cleaner. Pippin From nellie_beandust at yahoo.com Wed May 28 15:10:14 2003 From: nellie_beandust at yahoo.com (Nellie) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:10:14 -0000 Subject: Wizard Photography In-Reply-To: <20030528010703.86598.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58810 Tyler wrote: > This seems to me to come close to an answer. It's the > development process that causes motion. Wizard > photography is dependant on magical potions to achieve > motion. Still doesn't tell me what a wizard photo of > an empty chair would look like, however. My reply: Maybe a wizard picture of a chair would show shadows moving, or light changing, depending on the time of day. Just something subtle. A wizard photo of a tree or landscape might show the wind blowing in leaves, or changes in weather. I wish my photos did that! --Nellie From burgess at cynjut.net Wed May 28 15:19:21 2003 From: burgess at cynjut.net (David Burgess) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:19:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Modern Plumbing (was Re: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: <1054069886.7739.15234.m14@yahoogroups.com> References: <1054069886.7739.15234.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <47495.204.248.21.50.1054135161.squirrel@www.cynjut.net> No: HPFGUIDX 58811 "> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stardancerofas" > wrote: >> Now me Lorrie: This has been bothering me for quite awhile. How is >> it, that a school that has been searched countless times by skilled >> Wizards and Witches nobody noticed this? I mean we can reasonably >> argue that the Bathroom wasn't always a bathroom. Modern plumbing was >> installed at some point, and no one, not the Plumber or his assitant >> noticed that there was a giant crater down there? Nobody ever >> mentioned it to the Headmaster / Headmistress? > > It is kind of odd that the WW does not have electricity or automobiles > or any number of other modern conveniences, but yet it does have > plumbing. You'd think that there might have been some sort of wizard > outhouse technology... > "Any sufficiently advanced technology ..." Wizards have Magic, which operates in a much less constrainted manner than electricity, but provides the energy needs of the populace reasonably well. The Wizard Wireless is an example. Magic messes up electrical devices; the interference can't be a pure coincidence. And we know from canon that some wizards do, in fact, have cars; the MoM has them for certain. It coud be argued that some wizards (of Arthur Weasley's ilk) could be exposed to wizarding conveniences and make up non-magic versions using electricity.... Finally, as it turns out, I was watching the History Channel last night, and they mentioned that ancient Rome had indoor plumbing (to a point). Many of the homes in Rome and all of the bath houses throughout the empire had running water, "flush" toilets, and other "modern" conveniences thanks to their extensive aquaduct system. Both potable and inpotable water were delivered at the rate of something like 200 gallons per person per day. Now, these bits of technology were largely lost on intervening generations, but they did exist in the ancient past. I'm waiting for something really silly, like a wizard arguing that flying brooms are passe and that they need to update to flying carpet sweepers. -- Dave Burgess Bellevue, NE 68123 From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Wed May 28 13:08:27 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:08:27 -0000 Subject: About the gleam of triumph... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58812 OK, I don't intend to quote all the messages about DD dying, but I'll just give my humble opinion. I think indeed that DD will die, and probably even in OOP, since this will give Harry plenty of opportunities to struggle in Book 6 and finally close the deal in book seven. Indeed JKR spoke in an interview about a death of someone that would be very hard to write about. Somehow, I always assumed that it would be DD. I don't know why, I just did. Furthemore, I think there are several ways how DD could "be there " for Harry. There's always the mirror, right? He might be there for Harry in that way, since in PS already it has been shown that the mirror has a way of communicating (showing Harry where the stone was). I don't know, bu somehow I think the mirror will be coming back. My 2 cts Vicky (who is counting days now untill the 21st) From petalla at express56.com Wed May 28 15:41:22 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:41:22 -0000 Subject: Confusuion-spies/lies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58813 OK. So if Voldie never uses names, and no one really knows who follows him (except for Voldie himself), why did he use names within the circle of Death Eaters? If no one knows who was a DE, why do some know each other as DEs? How does Karakoff know about Snape? These questions are some of the things that have been bothering me. In the posts here, it seems that many are torn on these issues. Some believe that Voldie does not keep his information very hidden, and others think that only those in the inner circle of DE knew each other. I have been looking for evidence within the texts to see which I can adhere too...I'm at a loss. Here are some of my questions now--- Is it really a secret that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore? Dumbledore does publicly stand up for Snape. He says that Snape turned spy for him before the fall of Voldie. If this is public knowledge (at least within the WW), how can Snape return to the DE? Lockheart??? We know he is still at St. Mungo's--but could he be the person possible that quoted for Rita's article? We know that the real Moody was aprehensive about Snape being on Dumbledore's side. We also know (thanks to some interviews with JKR) that we will like the real Moody even more than the fake one (well most of us did at first!). Is he still not sure about Snape? Who will we trust? Dumbledore or Moody? ~~~~~a very confuzzled Peggy From meboriqua at aol.com Wed May 28 15:57:11 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:57:11 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" wrote: > Furthemore, I think there are several ways how DD could "be there " for Harry. There's always the mirror, right? He might be there for Harry in that way, since in PS already it has been shown that the mirror has a way of communicating (showing Harry where the stone was).> Wasn't it Harry himself who found the stone? The Mirror of Erised shows people what they most desire, which comes from people themselves. I didn't get the feeling that the Mirror was an active participant that way. Harry, when looking into the Mirror with Quirrel, wanted more than anything at than moment to find the stone. Dumbledore was banking on the fact that Harry would not want to use the stone in any way and that's what helped put the stone in Harry's pocket. If anything, it was Dumbledore who set up the Mirror to work as it did, reflecting people's desires. I see no evidence of this being the Mirror itself communicating. Or am I missing something? Just to add my two knuts about Dumbledore's death, I'd bet money that he will die, but in book 7, not earlier. JKR hasn't mentioned his age and weariness for nothing. --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************************* From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Wed May 28 15:44:30 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:44:30 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stardancerofas" wrote: > Tiger Queen wrote: Why did Tom Riddle open the Chamber...(not exact > but close enough>) > Now me Lorrie: This has been bothering me for quite awhile. How is it, > that a school that has been searched countless times by skilled > Wizards and Witches nobody noticed this? I mean we can reasonably > argue that the Bathroom wasn't always a bathroom. Modern plumbing was > installed at some point, and no one, not the Plumber or his assitant > noticed that there was a giant crater down there? Nobody ever > mentioned it to the Headmaster / Headmistress? I never thought this to be strange. The Chamber (read: the giant crater) could only be opened by a true heir of Slytherin. So, if none of the people that searched the school was a true heir, they would not have found/seen/noticed this. After all, there are other occasion where JKR mentions of magic being used to hide things or places from groups of people, e.g. Hogwarts,... That leaves the question of Ginny and Harry finding the giant crater. Ginny was accompanied by TR and Harry carries part of the power of Voldemort, so that could explain why those two could find it. My 2 cts, Vicky From innermurk at catlover.com Wed May 28 16:17:29 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:17:29 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58816 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vicky_gwosdz" > wrote: > > > Furthemore, I think there are several ways how DD could "be there " > for Harry. There's always the mirror, right? He might be there for > Harry in that way, since in PS already it has been shown that the > mirror has a way of communicating (showing Harry where the stone > was).> Jenny from Ravenclaw responded: > Wasn't it Harry himself who found the stone? The Mirror of Erised > shows people what they most desire, which comes from people > themselves. I didn't get the feeling that the Mirror was an active > participant that way. Harry, when looking into the Mirror with > Quirrel, wanted more than anything at than moment to find the stone. I see no evidence of this > being the Mirror itself communicating. Or am I missing something? > I Innermurk want to add: DD told us and Harry that the mirror will give neither knowledge nor truth. I think that rules out the possibility that he would use it as a way of communicating anything to Harry. I think Jenny is spot on target with her summation of the things coming from the people themselves. The mirror although magical in a way, is simply doing what mirrors do and reflecting them/their desires. Innermurk From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed May 28 15:54:47 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:54:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sacrifice. / Sorting and Character Traits In-Reply-To: <004501c32502$af93b0c0$105c63d9@ola> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Koticzka" wrote: > SORTING > > elfundeb wrote: > >>My theory is that the Hat doesn't simply try to figure out which > characteristic is most dominant, or try to get a mix in each house. Rather, > it looks to which house will best help the individual recognize and develop > those traits. Hermione doesn't need any help sharpening her intellect, but > she underestimates her own bravery (as in her speech to Harry in PS/SS > before she drinks the potion). > > ****Koticzka's question: > Would Slytherin House be an exception? What kind of features do they lack > that would lead to them all being gathered together? Was the Hat's policy to > enhance one's personality? Annemehr: But Hermione didn't *lack* bravery. It was perhaps undeveloped, or rather say not fully developed (after all, she hadn't had that much opportunity to excercise it up till the sorting, as far as we know), or, as Debbie says, she only underestimates it. I just think the hat puts students into the house which would best help them develop their talents, whether evident or latent, and with no regard to keeping the numbers even. This is the only explanation, IMO, which fulfills the school's responsibility to the *students.* > > HARRY'S SACRIFICE > > > Considering Harry's ability for sacrifices, I cannot stop thinking of this > situation, where the only solution is really to sacrifice someone's life. > And no sacrifice would be bigger for him than to sacrifice something that is > not his, like someone else's life. Annemehr: True. This would indeed be unbearable for Harry. A short while ago, there was a thread going on discussing whether, for thematic reasons, Harry might need to *fail* at something important, since he hasn't so far. The most prominent conlusion reached at that time was that some action of his would result in the loss of someone's life. However, if Harry is to have a failure, I think you might have hit on just what that might be -- the failure to make just this sacrifice of someone else's life when it is needed. On the other hand, I think you will get some argument from the list about whether he actually *should* do such a thing. Personally, I'm not so sure either way and will have to think about it some more. [Sorry I can't point you to the "failure" thread, but if I bring up another window in my computer, this one will reset and I will lose what I have written so far. I didn't realize I was going to cite it until just now. Maybe one of the priciples in that discussion can help out, if this point ends up being of interest.] > > > **Koticzka's rambling: > I just cannot resist. Sacrifices made by Harry are cheapened by any sort of > prize, like Dumbledore's points for the Gryffindors. That might not change > Harry's attitude, or make the choice less painful. For the reader, though, > it might change a lot, especially when the reader is not eager or conscious > enough to consider circumstances in the world where the prize will not be > given. How can we talk of any kind of sacrifices then? Annemehr: I never really thought much about those end-of-the-year points before, and even though I read the posts about them, I was never very worked up about it, but now I wonder if you haven't come upon another theme of the series. First, why the point system at all (discussed already at greater length)? Why give this type of reward for *anything* the students do? Shouldn't they do their schoolwork for the sake of learning, not for House Points? Shouldn't they be well behaved because it's right? Shouldn't they even play Quidditch for the sake of the sport and even just the Quidditch cup without regard to the House Cup? I suppose the answer is that the young people need an extra, visible incentive to do what's right: study, play well, condsider how your actions affect other people (i.e. the rest of your House). However, you are right that the points Harry et al get at the end of PS/SS and CoS seem to be disconnected, somehow, with the reasons for their heroic actions. What does the House Cup have to do with saving Ginny Weasley's life? Ah, but maybe JKR agrees with you! Look what happens next. In PoA, Pettigrew is spared and Sirius and Buckbeak are saved, and Dumbledore holds these actions in high esteem ("Why so miserable, Harry?" he said quietly. "You shold be very proud of yourself after last night." PoA, ch. 22). Harry does not receive any points for any of this. Of course, he can't really, as it is all a secret, but neither do points seem to matter at all to either Harry or Dumbledore. Gryffindor does win the House Cup because of Quidditch anyway, so you hardly notice the departure from the first two books. Okay, so now consider GoF. Harry "wins" the TWT and the thousand Galleons prize money. Of course he shouldn't have even been in the tournament, and he had help with the tasks (as did all the champions), but who would seriously say he didn't earn the prize? And yet he is, understandably, horrified by it. He has seen murder done, has been tortured and horribly used and nearly murdered himself, and Fudge gives him 1000 Galleons? I would be surprised if House Points are ever again a driving force for Harry. > > Annemehr also wrote: > >>The only "sacrifice" I can think of, is when Wormtail cuts off his own > hand for Voldemort's potion. In this case, he is sacrificing one hand to > save his whole life, so I'm not sure this counts. And then, he *was* > promised the silver hand afterwards. ;-)<< > > ***Koticzka comments: > There is no way for me to prove my point - but (omitting the details of that > particular bargain),Wormtail's sacrifice seems quite clear and tangible (how > very touching). I do not mean to make Wormtail into a hero, no way! My > thought is that it is something we all can feel shuddering and shivering in > our bones. Annemehr: You are absolutely right. Wormtail cutting his hand off is no small thing at all. Even Harry feels it (and so did I). In Colorado recently, there was a hiker whose arm got trapped behind a boulder that had shifted. After five days, he cut off his own arm to save his life, and everyone *knows* this was a very brave thing to do! Actually, everyone knows it was amazing. I just wasn't sure whether Wormtail's action would qualify as a true sacrifice within the story. Maybe it does, and it was no small feat in any case! > > Darrin asks what the point is in here. > ***Koticzka's suggestion: It is an auction - how much Harry will have to > bear by the end of the seventh book. > Annemehr: Too much, I'm afraid. Can this really end happily? Bittersweet is what I'm hoping for now, hoping it will not be an out-and-out tragedy. From adanaleigh at hotmail.com Wed May 28 16:20:38 2003 From: adanaleigh at hotmail.com (Adana Robinson) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:20:38 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heir defined Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58818 Hi! I've been "no mail" for a very long time, so it's like being a newbie again. This may have been discussed here before, but here's my thoughts anyway. :) Who says TR is the descendent of Slytherin? Is it TR himself? If so, why would we believe him? As some have pointed out, how would he know anyway? My idea is that he considers himself the spiritual heir, as he has the same beliefs and ideas. He thinks no one else is the "true heir" because no one else has had the courage to wipe out all the Muggles. This is similar to a young political candidate being groomed by his party for the next big election. If he's decent looking, tall, personable, well-spoken, etc. etc., and has everything going for him, he's spoken of as the "heir apparent" to the reigning head of the party. It has nothing to do with blood, and everything to do with beliefs and who's going to be in charge. By the same token, Harry could be the true Heir of Gryffindor, and it would have nothing to do with his geneo--geneal--background. Just because he's brave and loyal and willing to fight for the same principles. This makes more sense to me because it emphasizes the "character over blood" and "choices over inheritance" theme that seems to be very important to JKR. So, "hidden" Evans family, lack of red hair, lost bloodline....doesn't matter. As a matter of fact, if it turns out that Lily's whole family were actually wizards in hiding, IMO Harry will lose some of his appeal. If he's a product of TWO "pureblood" families, instead of being part Muggle, his eventual victory over V won't be nearly as satisfying. Unless, of course, Harry is a pureblood but loses badly anyway (causing AD's death in the process) and is only saved by the resourcefulness of Hermione. adanaleigh (being run away with by purely speculative plot theories) >From: "maidne" >> >1) If Godric Gryffindor was red haired, maybe the Weasleys, rather >than Harry, are the true heirs of Gryffindor. > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Wed May 28 16:32:20 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:32:20 -0000 Subject: Modern Plumbing (was Re: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58819 I think I didn't phrase my original comment so well, and my use of the phrases "wizard outhouse" (which sounds very low-tech) and "modern conveniences" confused things even more. Hydrxuk and I are actually in agreement. In my original comment below, change "have" to "need" and that gets closer to the mark. In other words, in a world that can avoid the polluting effects of electricity production and internal combustion engines (granting the MoM exceptions), why are water-based flush toilets needed at all? (And ones that dump into the lake, no less...) Yes, wizards are humans and have human needs, but I would think magic could be brought to bear on the technological problem of human waste disposal more than is evident from the books. Then again, maybe there's a magical sewage plant at the bottom of the lake. Ersatz Harry, who is trying to resist asking the question "what's the poop?" --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hydrxuk" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" > > > > It is kind of odd that the WW does not have electricity or > > automobiles or any number of other modern conveniences, but yet > > it does have plumbing. > > In many ways it's the Muggle World (MW) which is playing catch up. From titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com Wed May 28 17:22:31 2003 From: titaniclady_1912 at hotmail.com (Anne(Anja)) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:22:31 -0000 Subject: Confusuion-spies/lies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peggybaratto" wrote: > > Here are some of my questions now--- > Is it really a secret that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore? > Dumbledore does publicly stand up for Snape. He says that Snape > turned spy for him before the fall of Voldie. If this is public > knowledge (at least within the WW), how can Snape return to the DE? > I think at first it may have been very well a secret which became public when Snape was caught by the Ministery and brought to trial , probably AFTER Voldemort's first defeat. Why do I think this ? You see, Dumbledore stood up for Snape during Karkaroff's trial which clearly took place after Halloween 1981. During the same trial Crouch mentions that "Snape has been cleared by this council" (GoF , p. 383. This means : a) Snape has been accused of being a Deatheater sometime BEFORE Karkaroff mentioned his name in front of the council and everyone present that day. b) He must have been already a spy back then since Dumbledore was able to vouch for him . Otherwise DD wouldn't have been able to save him from the Dementors or Askaban. c) Even Snape's first trial happened after Harry defeated Voldemort. Here my evidence in canon is Lucius Malfoy who doesn't seem to have a clue that Snape left the Dark Lord and rejoined DD's side. If he knew about that , he would have told Draco whose attitude towards Snape would , IMHO , be completely different. Still I don't think it is common knowledge in the Wizarding World that Snape was Dumbledore's spy. Nevertheless I guess the information would be available to everyone interested. It's just that Harry never tried to find out anything about Snape before he saw the scene in the Pensieve , otherwise he probably would have found out earlier. Now there's still the problem with Lucius Malfoy who never gave the impression of distrusting Snape's loyality to the Dark Side (he wouldn't have sent his son to Hogwarts if he had known that his son would be thaught by a traitor). Maybe Snape and Malfoy are indeed close friends and Snape found some excuse for all the talk about him being a spy. Lucius himself talked himself out of this whole Deatheater thing as did many others , so it wouldn't be impossible for him to believe that Snape just pretended to be have been a spy to escape from the Ministery. Maybe this excuse may also work with Voldemort. Just think of his immense arrogance. Would he want to admit to himself that there was a traitor among his precious Deatheaters all the time ? I don't think so. And remember he took Malfoy and Avery back as well although the two of them denied their loyality to him before the council. Sure , there's still the fact that Quirrel/Voldemort probably sensed his true loyalities but he might be able to find an excuse for that as well. BTW , is there any evidence in canon that Voldemort can remember anything of the things that happened while he was on the back of Quirrel's head ? Sympa (who is confused as well but wanted to jump on this anyway) From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed May 28 17:43:36 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:43:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heir defined Message-ID: <11.1225a38d.2c064f48@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58821 In a message dated 5/28/2003 11:23:53 AM Central Standard Time, adanaleigh at hotmail.com writes: > Who says TR is the descendent of Slytherin? Is it TR himself? If so, why > would we believe him? As I recall Dumbledore himself tells Harry that Tom Riddle is the last descendant of Salazar Slytherin. Unfortunately I don't have COS handy to get the exact quote. For some reason I think that they are talking in hard facts here not some spiritual belief. . I don't think it was a spiritual belief that formed Riddle's hatred for Muggles. It was his abandonment by his birth father. I [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 28 17:55:16 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:55:16 -0000 Subject: Basis for the Name "Hogwarts" (WAS: Pigs and Hogs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58822 bboy_mn (Steve) wrote: > JKR got the name for Hogwarts (I believe) from a flower she had seen > in a botanical garden. [can someone verify this, I'm working from > memory... a very bad memory] Now me: Here's a segment from an interview where this came up: Q: "How do you come up with names?" JKR: "Some I make up. Some mean something. Dumbledore is olde English for bumblebee. I thought I made up Hogwarts, but recently a friend said, `Remember we saw lilies in Kew gardens (a garden in London.)' Apparently there are lilies there called Hogwarts. I'd forgotten!" and the link: http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0,1120,22-9966-0-2,00.html So it could be that JKR saw the Hogwarts lilies and the name made its way into her subconscious, so that later she thought she was making up the name when in actuality she was recalling the lilies she had seen earlier in her life. But the interview segment seems fairly clear that JKR didn't intend for the Hogwarts name to "mean something." Or at least, it doesn't have a meaning that she's willing to divulge just yet! ~Phyllis From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed May 28 18:31:48 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:31:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Plumbing References: <1054092105.4005.82501.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002201c32547$67f94140$737d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 58823 Sgrifennodd Pshemikan >That raise interesting question: how old is WW? I mean, when exactly >Wizards and Muggles created their separate societies? Was it first >cities (8000 BC?), ancient Egypt (4000 BC?), ancient Greece (400 BC?), >or perhaps Charlemagne (800 AD?). One might wonder if WW suffered the >same setbacks as Muggle societies -- Dark Ages in Medieval Times, black >death and the like... >I personally belive, that such separation took place in ancient Sumer or >Babylon (3000-2000 BC), because there were a civilisation as we know now >with laws, schools, letters, banks, diplomacy, spies and of course magic. There are two (not unrelated) points to think about here. The first one would be: when did wizards first emerge among human beings, the second: when did wizards first become aware that they were different from muggles and had things in common with each other. I don't think the two were necessarily at the same time. Certainly as wizardly powers manifested themselves in human communities, it's likely that the wizard would become the village shaman, medicine man, or whatever. But of course that person wouldn't be conscious of being different in the sense that WW wizards are aware. For that, I would suggest that it would come at the point that enough people were gathered together in communities for there to be more than one or two wizards at a time, enough for them to get together, compare notes, and begin to generate the sense of separate self-awareness that they have now. Once there was sufficient sense of wizard community, i would suggest that separate histories would have begun, and that wizards would have begun to divorce themselves from the concerns of muggles. The actual descent into secrecy was (IIRC) late in the 17th century but I think that that event came long after the WW had the necessary institutions to make it work. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 28 18:47:27 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:47:27 -0000 Subject: How Riddle Knew He Was A Descendant of Slytherin (WAS: Heir defined) In-Reply-To: <11.1225a38d.2c064f48@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58824 melskidz wrote: > As I recall Dumbledore himself tells Harry that Tom Riddle is the > last descendant of Salazar Slytherin. Unfortunately I don't have > COS handy to get the exact quote. Now me: Here's the exact quote: "'You can speak Parseltongue, Harry,' said Dumbledore calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue'" (CoS, Ch. 18). As to the question of how Tom Riddle Jr. found out that he was a descendant of Slytherin - since my idea that his mother might have left him an interactive diary doesn't seem to be catching on, how about this idea: Riddle knows that his mother named him "Marvolo" after his grandfather (CoS, Ch. 13). While we don't know for sure, chances are good that it's his mother's father, since his mother gave him that middle name. Assuming it is his mother's father's name, this would have given Riddle a clue to his heritage that he could have researched and worked his way back to Slytherin. Of course, this raises another question - how did Riddle know that he was named Marvolo after his grandfather? I don't think his father told him, since his father abandoned his mother when he found out she was a witch (before Riddle Jr. was born), which leaves me with the impression that he never had any contact with his son. And Riddle's mother died giving birth to him, so she couldn't have told him. And presumably there were no other family members alive on his mother's side, or else Riddle Jr. would have presumably been sent to live with them rather than being sent to an orphanage. So I'm back to my original idea that his mother found some way to communicate this to him - either through an interactive diary, or perhaps a letter she wrote to him before he was born. And if the letter/diary told Riddle that he was named Marvolo after his grandfather, it could have just as easily told him that he was a descendant of Slytherin. ~Phyllis From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed May 28 19:18:43 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:18:43 -0000 Subject: Confusuion-spies/lies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peggybaratto" wrote: > OK. So if Voldie never uses names, and no one really knows who > follows him ..., why did he use names within the circle of Death > Eaters? > > If no one knows who was a DE, why do some know each other as DEs? > ...edited... bboy_mn: I think some Death Eaters know who some Death Eaters were, but no Death Eater knoww who all Death Eaters are. I have to believe that many of these DE's interacted socially; ie: with their masks off. I also believe that we are seeing the inner circle; the Generals of the Death Eaters. The rank and file Death Eaters or more accurately Voldemort supporters, probably didn't have the Dark Mark, and their identities were on a need to know basis only. I'm sure many of the Death Eater Generals knew who many of the rank and file members were, but again, none of them knew who all the rank and file supporters were. I have to believe that many of the supporters were covert supporters. They went about their daily life like normal wizards, but covertly acted on Voldemort's behalf. As far as the graveyard scene, there are DE's present who are not named. I also have to assume that among the DE Generals, the stand out DE's identities were known. A promenant, competent and successful member like Lucius would have been acknowledge for his abilities, and an incomeitent member like Avery would have been known for his bungling. Voldemort hands out accolades and disgrace with equal relish; part of his reward and punishment school of management style. > > Here are some of my questions now--- > Is it really a secret that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore? bboy_mn: I believe it is a limited secret. Those who were involved in the trials of DE's would have some knowledge of this; like the people who were at Karkarov's trial. It's possible that Dumbledore gave testimony on Snape's behalf at a hearing or during an investigation, so his statements may not have been public information. I also don't get the sense that everything that happens is a matter of public record. Yes, it is acknowledge by Fudge that some information regarding the trial is a matter of public record, but that may only be a summary of the charges and a ruling. Also the Snape as a spy theory, if our assumptions about the future are right, hinges on Snape being a double agent. That would mean that DE's with a need to know, would have known that Voldemort sent Snape to be a spy for Dumbledore. Let's face it, Dumbledore has spies in Voldimort's organization, and we know that Peter was a spy against Dumbledore. In a spy game like this, double agents would seem a very reasonable assumption. Snape makes one grand gesture by divulging Voldemort information, with Voldemort's knowledge and permission, to Dumbledore and that get's his foot in the door. After that, his trickle of information is of the 'too little too late' although accurate variety. Just enough to maintain his credability. So, if Snape is really working for Dumbledore, I guess we could consider him a triple agent. A DE who has enteted the service of Dumbledore as a spy agianst Voldemort, who Voldemort thinks is spying for him against Dumbledore, but in reality is a spy for Dumbledore against Voldemort. So I don't think the limited public knowledge that Snape was a spy works against him. The DE's think he was pretending to be a spy, but actually assume he is still with Voldemort. The general wizard world think he was a spy against Voldemort. This puts Snape in the perfect position to go back to Voldemort and claim the samething everyone else, like Lucius, claimed, has that he was just biding his time and maintaining his cover waiting for some sign that Voldemort was back. I know many people aren't buying it, but I'm convinced Snape will go back to Voldemort and offer to continue his role as a double agent. > If this is public knowledge (at least within the WW), how can Snape > return to the DE? See above. > > Lockheart??? We know he is still at St. Mungo's--but could he be > the person possible that quoted for Rita's article? I say forget Lockheart, I don't think he will ever play more than a minor role in future books. I think he will appear, but he will just be Lockheart, not an anamagus, not a secret spy, not a DE, nothing but a blowhard. > > We know that the real Moody was aprehensive about Snape being on > Dumbledore's side. ...edited... Is he still not sure about Snape? > Who will we trust? Dumbledore or Moody? > > ~~~~~a very confuzzled Peggy Interesting point implied here; we know what FAKE!Moody thought of Snape, but we really have no idea how the real Moody views him. I suspect that even the real Moody will be somewhat suspicious; you can never trust a spy. Hard to trust someone who makes their living by betraying people. But I think his suspicious will be a little more reasonable and logically fuel than FAKE!Moodies. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be Wed May 28 16:08:41 2003 From: vicky.gwosdz at group4falck.be (vicky_gwosdz) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:08:41 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > Wasn't it Harry himself who found the stone? The Mirror of Erised > shows people what they most desire, which comes from people > themselves. I didn't get the feeling that the Mirror was an active > participant that way. Harry, when looking into the Mirror with > Quirrel, wanted more than anything at than moment to find the stone. > Dumbledore was banking on the fact that Harry would not want to use > the stone in any way and that's what helped put the stone in Harry's > pocket. If anything, it was Dumbledore who set up the Mirror to work > as it did, reflecting people's desires. I see no evidence of this > being the Mirror itself communicating. Or am I missing something? > Quick recap: Harry looked in the mirror and wanted more then anything to find the Stone, and so he did. Now let's assume: If in the future, Harry should look in the mirror and wished more then anything that DD was still there to guide him, who knows what mighht happen. The mirror is obviously a very powerfull instrument and DD knows how to use it. I should think that it still has a lot of powers after DD is gone. My 2 cents, Vicky From azevedan at yahoo.com Wed May 28 17:12:06 2003 From: azevedan at yahoo.com (azevedan) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:12:06 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye can't last forever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jhlupin" wrote: > I would not be suprised to see AD pull a *Gandalf* > and return as an even more powerful version of > himself. Is this what really refers to? Oooh - there's an interesting thought! > I am a little suspicious that he has acquired a > resistence to poisons following his basilisk as the > acromantula bite to his leg in GoF had no serious consequence. The spider doesn't bite him, it gets him with its pincers (grabbers): "Harry had one horrifying glimpse of eight sining black eyes, and razor-sharp pincers, before it was upon him. He was lifted into the air in its front legs; struggling madly, he tried to kick it; his leg connected with the pincers and next moment he was in excruciating pain"...then, for good measure, he gets dropped "twelve feet onto his already injured leg". So I don't think there's any implication he's impervious or resistant to poisons. Ann From innermurk at catlover.com Wed May 28 19:37:31 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:37:31 -0000 Subject: How Riddle Knew He Was A Descendant of Slytherin (WAS: Heir defined) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58828 Phyllis wrote about how Tom knew he was descended from Slytherin: > So I'm back to my original idea that his mother found some way to > communicate this to him - either through an interactive diary, or > perhaps a letter she wrote to him before he was born. And if the > letter/diary told Riddle that he was named Marvolo after his > grandfather, it could have just as easily told him that he was a > descendant of Slytherin. > I innermurk want to add: Here's an idea, what if the Sorting Hat told him? The sorting hat had a nice little conversation with Harry, so it's not an unheard of thing to happen. Tom probably would've been more confused than Harry, since Harry had Hagrid to help him understand things beforehand. I can picture him sitting on the stool having a chat about his name with the sorting hat and what house he'd fit into. The sorting hat didn't have to give him much more than a clue for him to follow, and then he'd work it out from there. All he needed was a starting point. Innermurk From Mhochberg at aol.com Wed May 28 18:45:48 2003 From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:45:48 EDT Subject: Hermione's Place (was Ron's Place) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58829 >From M. J. Pascual" >> I recently found the FAQ created from postings and musing from this mailing list, including a comprehensive treatment of Hermione (among others.) Included is a discussion on her Sorting into House Gryffindor rather than Ravenclaw: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hermione.html << Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen it yet, only the VFAQ. There are some interesting ideas but it didn't fill my need to speculate about her bravery---or her choices. I believe that she is an intrinsically smart and a strong witch. There too many incidents of her finding the answers without research but by observation (i.e., what Fluffy was standing on) and deduction. Insecure, yes (all the research plus the bogart) but brave. She could be there simply to give Harry a very smart friend in the same house as I've noticed little few cross-house friendships, in either the books or movies. Or it could be that Hermione simply chose to be in Gryffindor, as Harry did. Doing so says huge amounts about her character and her values. > >> The FAQ was a good way to kill a couple of hours. (What do you mean > you work at work? :) << > > It's hard for me to read at work as I have to stand up in front of the class and teach. (grades 1-8, computers) I will have to go back and see what it says about Neville. He is another person that I truly believe will play a pivotal role in the future. Thanks again for the link. ---Mary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From helen at odegard.com Wed May 28 19:21:22 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:21:22 -0700 Subject: The Question of Plumbing.... In-Reply-To: <1054139850.2560.87320.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c3254e$533d9f10$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 58830 In my short time in the fandom, I have seen this question of the plumbing come up over and over again in regards to the Chamber. Hogwarts was founded, what, 1000 years ago? Didn't the Romans have fairly decent plumbing/running water? Hot and cold even? Between magic and already existing technology (Dark Ages notwithstanding, perhaps Wizards preserved the Muggle 'good stuff'), I don't think the plumbing issue is really a problem. Even if at some point the sinks were replaced, would it be such a stretch for Salazar to have charmed the snake to reappear on whatever fixture was in that spot? From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 28 20:52:06 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:52:06 -0000 Subject: Confusuion-spies/lies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58831 Peggy asked: > If no one knows who was a DE, why do some know each other as DEs? > How does Karakoff know about Snape? and bboy_mn (Steve) responded: > I think some Death Eaters know who some Death Eaters were, but no > Death Eater know who all Death Eaters are. Now me: Exactly ? as Karkaroff says during his trial in the Pensieve, "we ever knew the names of every one of our fellows ? he [Voldemort] alone knew exactly who we all were" (GoF, Ch. 30). Peggy again: > Is it really a secret that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore? bboy_mn (Steve) again: > I believe it is a limited secret. Me again: This is a point of confusion for me ? Dumbledore makes the announcement that Snape was a DE but turned spy for the good guys in front of "at least" 200 witches and wizards at Karkaroff's trial, but despite this public pronouncement in front of such a large group of witches and wizards, this fact doesn't seem to be generally known (as Sirius tells HRH in the cave outside Hogsmeade: "But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater...There's still the fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape, and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot of other people wouldn't, but I just can't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort" (GoF, Ch. 27). The only way I can make this make sense is if the 200 witches and wizards at the trial are sworn to secrecy. But even that theory falls down when we see Rita Skeeter at Bagman's trial with her Quick-Quotes Quill in action. Perhaps some trials are secret and others aren't? I just don't know. Peggy again: > Lockheart??? We know he is still at St. Mungo's--but could he be > the person possible that quoted for Rita's article? bboy_mn (Steve) again: > I say forget Lockheart, I don't think he will ever play more than a > minor role in future books. I think he will appear, but he will just > be Lockheart, not an anamagus, not a secret spy, not a DE, nothing > but a blowhard. Me again: JKR has as much as said that we won't see Lockhart again: Q: "Which character do you most enjoy writing for?" JKR: "Good question... Gilderoy Lockhart was loads of fun, but he was a bit of a one-joke character, and I think I did as much as I could with him." And the link: http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript3.shtml bboy_mn (Steve) again: > Interesting point implied here; we know what FAKE!Moody thought of > Snape, but we really have no idea how the real Moody views him. Now me: Oh, but I think we do have an idea of how the real Moody views Snape ? when Harry witnesses Karkaroff's trial in the Pensieve, and Dumbledore gets to his feet to say that Snape was a spy for the good guys and "is now no more a Death Eater than I am," the next two lines read: "Harry turned to look at Mad-Eye Moody. He was wearing a look of deep skepticism behind Dumbledore's back" (GoF, Ch. 30). ~Phyllis who shares Mad-Eye's skepticism about Snape From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed May 28 20:59:26 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:59:26 -0000 Subject: Pigs and Hogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58832 Becky alertly noted: >But it isn't quite normal to have this much > *pork* in a book, in my humble opinion. > HOGwarts > HOGsmeade > HOG's Head > PIGwidgeon > PIG snout (the password) > Hagrid gives Dudley a PIG's tail when he gets upset Hmmm. Mighty curious, that. Note also that Uncle Vernon has "piggy" eyes, and Harry seems to consume a bit too much bacon and sausage for his own good. Cindy -- personally quite fond of "The Other White Meat" From petalla at express56.com Wed May 28 21:20:50 2003 From: petalla at express56.com (peggybaratto) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:20:50 -0000 Subject: Confusuion-spies/lies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > Now me: > > Oh, but I think we do have an idea of how the real Moody views Snape ? > when Harry witnesses Karkaroff's trial in the Pensieve, and > Dumbledore gets to his feet to say that Snape was a spy for the good > guys and "is now no more a Death Eater than I am," the next two lines > read: "Harry turned to look at Mad-Eye Moody. He was wearing a look > of deep skepticism behind Dumbledore's back" (GoF, Ch. 30). > > ~Phyllis > who shares Mad-Eye's skepticism about Snape Phyllis, Thank you for writing this, I was just about to! The real Moody is not so sure of Snape, as many are not sure on this list. I would really like to believe that he is as loyal to Dumbledore as he has "proven" in the past. I wonder if this is because Snape owes Dumbledore a life debt? About Lockheart, I'm not so sure we can really trust what JKR has told us. She has not completed the series yet, and there are two books to go. I'm not so sure she knows exactly what is going to happen just yet. Remember Icicle ( think this is how she spelled it...not sure)? Although, I would like to forget him! ~~~~~~~~~~Peggy From innermurk at catlover.com Wed May 28 21:43:15 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:43:15 -0000 Subject: Icicle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58834 Maybe I'm being naive here, but since when was there ever going to be a character named icicle? I think that I remember seeing a transcript of a chat (sorry don't have a link to it, don't actually even remember where it is) where someone with an id of icicle asked JKR a question and under that line she said something along the lines of (paraphrasing by memory): cool name, mind if I use it? BUT, I never saw that as her wanting to use icicle as a name because there were so many names in that room you couldn't be sure who she was referring to. Anyone who's been in a chat room knows there is a bit of lag time and you have to get used to it. So where is the reference to this being a character that got written out? Thanks! Innermurk From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Wed May 28 21:45:02 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:45:02 -0000 Subject: How Riddle Knew He Was A Descendant of Slytherin (WAS: Heir defined) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58835 In response to my ponderings about how Voldemort would have found out that he was a descendant of Slytherin, Innermurk suggested: > Here's an idea, what if the Sorting Hat told him? Me again: I actually did consider that option, especially in light of JKR's statement that there's more to the Sorting Hat than meets the eye. However, what gave me pause was the fact that the Sorting Hat was once Godric Gryffindor's hat, and given the enmity between Gryffindor and Slytherin, I suspect the Hat would not have divulged Riddle's Slytherin ancestry to him (assuming the Hat knew about it in the first place, that is). Also, it's the Sorting Hat that Fawkes brings to Harry's aid in the Chamber when Harry is fighting against both Memory!Riddle and Slytherin's serpent, so I really see the Hat as being part of the fight against the evil Slythierin and Voldemort represent. ~Phyllis From innermurk at catlover.com Wed May 28 21:56:19 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:56:19 -0000 Subject: How Riddle Knew He Was A Descendant of Slytherin (WAS: Heir defined) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58836 I, Innermurk suggested earlier in response to Phyllis' question on how Tom knew he was the heir of Slytherin: > > > Here's an idea, what if the Sorting Hat told him? ~Phyllis replied: > I actually did consider that option, especially in light of JKR's > statement that there's more to the Sorting Hat than meets the eye. > However, what gave me pause was the fact that the Sorting Hat was > once Godric Gryffindor's hat, and given the enmity between Gryffindor > and Slytherin, I suspect the Hat would not have divulged Riddle's > Slytherin ancestry to him (assuming the Hat knew about it in the > first place, that is). Also, it's the Sorting Hat that Fawkes brings > to Harry's aid in the Chamber when Harry is fighting against both > Memory!Riddle and Slytherin's serpent, so I really see the Hat as > being part of the fight against the evil Slythierin and Voldemort > represent. > I innermurk reply: But, the sorting hat may not have come outright and told him. As I suggested earlier, maybe it just said something that gave him a start. He only needed a place to start. His curiosity about his roots must've heightened greatly after finding out he was a wizard. If he guessed his name might tell him something, the most innocent statement (such as your mother....was in Slytherin, or whatever) from the sorting hat might have given him all he needed. He would've deduced from that statement that his mother was the witch, and he could've started there. I'm sure that some of his teachers would have taught his mother there as well, and might've said something to him about her. He seemed proud of his tragic life as an orphan, so I'm sure he played it up all he could. This was before he CHOSE to be evil, and his image in school was a handsome, good, honest, and hard working boy. No one had any reason not to help him as they couldn't know that they were helping evil. Innermurk From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Wed May 28 22:02:17 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:02:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Icicle Message-ID: <3ED531E9.70106@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58837 > Innermurk Wrote: > Maybe I'm being naive here, but since when was there ever going to be > a character named icicle? > I think that I remember seeing a transcript of a chat (sorry don't > have a link to it, don't actually even remember where it is) where > someone with an id of icicle asked JKR a question and under that line > she said something along the lines of (paraphrasing by memory): cool > name, mind if I use it? > > BUT, I never saw that as her wanting to use icicle as a name because > there were so many names in that room you couldn't be sure who she > was referring to. Anyone who's been in a chat room knows there is a > bit of lag time and you have to get used to it. So where is the > reference to this being a character that got written out? Pat replies: I remember seeing that chat, too, and that one little throwaway compliment by JKR to a fan took on a life of its own. I think the character that you're referring to that got "written out" was the Weasley cousin we were supposed to meet in GoF. I remember JKR saying that a character like Rita Skeeter was a better fit for the plot. Don't know where to find the transcript, but I'm sure it's in the archives somewhere. No Icicle was written out, and I'd be surprised to see one in the book, except perhaps as a filler name during a Sorting or something. TTFN-- Pat From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Wed May 28 20:22:07 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:22:07 -0000 Subject: Philosopher's Reflection (was: Re: Mirror of Erised) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58838 > I Innermurk want to add: > > DD told us and Harry that the mirror will give neither knowledge nor > truth. Actually, that's an intriguing point for another reason. People have repeatedly raised the issue, regarding the end of the first book and Harry's complicity/unfounded guilt/general involvement in Voldemort "almost" getting the stone, of whether Quirrel/Voldemort could have eventually gotten it out given time to work -- and if not, how perhaps Harry's presence actually pointless at best and nearly disastrous at worst. My interpretation of the Stone in the Mirror has always, until this point, been that Dumbledore (as he said) did perform some elaborate magic to hide the Stone there and allow it to be retrieved afterwards. But... did he ever say exactly /when/ it was destroyed? Is it possible that the Mirror which gives neither knowledge nor truth actually emitted a facsimile Philosopher's Stone? I'd be somewhat surprised if /this/ specifically is the case, as I'm not sure it's something JKR would know or want to draw on, but chiral molecules could be applicable here. "Chiral" essentially describes an object whose mirror image can't be superimposed on the original image -- think of your hands: the reflection of a left hand is a right hand, and those cannot be superimposed on each other exactly. The mirror image of a molecule that serves a biological function -- food, drug, enzyme, building material, whatever -- is very often useless or actually toxic. One of the most dramatic examples is thalidomide -- it's difficult to separate the two mirror images, and it turns out that it seems one of them has the desired results... and the other causes the horrible side effects. So... returning to fictional examples... if the Mirror of Erised spat out a false, reflected stone, could that have been the actual destruction? PK From patgruenke at cloudnet.com Wed May 28 22:10:20 2003 From: patgruenke at cloudnet.com (Pat and Jim Gruenke) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:10:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups} Quirrell and the Troll Message-ID: <3ED533CC.3090700@cloudnet.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58839 > Jimmy Pickle wrote: > Wouldn't the other staff have known what each one was doing to > protect the stone - especially if it involved large three headed > dogs, or stinky mountain trolls? > And... If they knew about Quirrell's gift with trolls, wouldn't that > raise questions regarding the earlier fainting episode? > And... Why did he knock the troll out - surely if he'd just got round > it it would have made a great rear-guard? Hmmm. Good point. Even if the rest of the staff didn't know, Dumbledore did. Here's a theory-- there wasn't a troll protecting the stone until after Halloween!!! They used the "Halloween troll" to defend the stone. Quirrell had another enchantment, a not-so-great one, already set up. They decided to replace that one with the troll. No questions about it then. And, as for why not go around the troll instead of knocking it out, that's a very good point. Perhaps time was of an essence, and quick and dirty was the way to go. Pat-- waiting with baited breath until the 21st... From linlou43 at yahoo.com Wed May 28 22:32:43 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:32:43 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups} Quirrell and the Troll In-Reply-To: <3ED533CC.3090700@cloudnet.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58840 Jimmy Pickle wrote: > > Why did he knock the troll out - surely if he'd just got round > > it it would have made a great rear-guard? > Pat replied: > Hmmm. Good point. Even if the rest of the staff didn't know, > Dumbledore did. Here's a theory-- there wasn't a troll protecting the > stone until after Halloween!!! They used the "Halloween troll" to > defend the stone. Quirrell had another enchantment, a not-so- great one, > already set up. They decided to replace that one with the troll. Linda(Me): The troll on the way to the stone was deffinitely not the same one from halloween. "Eyes watering, they saw, flat on the floor in front of them, a troll even larger than the one they had tackeled, out cold with a bloody lump on its head."---Through The Trap Door SS I guess it could be the same troll and it grew between Halloween and June but I got the impression that the troll HR battled in the girls bathroom was an adult...no canon just an impression. - Linda... Let's see... 23 days times 24 hours equals...plus 5 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds plus 24, no 23, no 22, no 21...... From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 28 22:43:08 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:43:08 -0000 Subject: How Riddle Knew He Was A Descendant of Slytherin (WAS: Heir defined) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > As to the question of how Tom Riddle Jr. found out that he was a descendant of Slytherin - < Tom probably found it very easy to break into the orphanage's records once he had learned a little magic. His mother's dying words could have been recorded there. Orphanages of the time were very interested to locate the orphans' families in hopes of making them pay support, though this information was never released to the child. The orphanage might have kept this information even if they couldn't understand it. There could have been all kinds of magical stuff stored in the Chamber itself. I very much doubt we've learned *all* the secrets. Pippin From jmmears at comcast.net Wed May 28 23:29:00 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:29:00 -0000 Subject: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innermurk" wrote: > Maybe I'm being naive here, but since when was there ever going to be > a character named icicle? > I think that I remember seeing a transcript of a chat (sorry don't > have a link to it, don't actually even remember where it is) where > someone with an id of icicle asked JKR a question and under that line > she said something along the lines of (paraphrasing by memory): cool > name, mind if I use it? > > BUT, I never saw that as her wanting to use icicle as a name because > there were so many names in that room you couldn't be sure who she > was referring to. Anyone who's been in a chat room knows there is a > bit of lag time and you have to get used to it. So where is the > reference to this being a character that got written out? I went to the Aberforth's Goat site to find this reference since I do remember reading a chat where JKR told the person who asked her about "Icicle" that there was *never* a character with that name and not to believe everything they saw on the internet . Unfortunately, that Yahooligans chat is apparently no longer available. although if you type the word "Icicle" into the search function at: http://www.angelfire.com/magic/aberforthsgoat/index.htm you can find the relevant portion where she dismisses the notion of a character with this name, so apparently this is one of those persistant rumors, which has no real basis. Jo Serenadust From yellows at aol.com Wed May 28 23:55:07 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:55:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58843 In a message dated 5/28/2003 12:02:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jenny from Ravenclaw writes: > Wasn't it Harry himself who found the stone? The Mirror of Erised > shows people what they most desire, which comes from people > themselves. I didn't get the feeling that the Mirror was an active > participant that way. Harry, when looking into the Mirror with > Quirrel, wanted more than anything at than moment to find the stone. > Dumbledore was banking on the fact that Harry would not want to use > the stone in any way and that's what helped put the stone in Harry's > pocket. If anything, it was Dumbledore who set up the Mirror to work > as it did, reflecting people's desires. I see no evidence of this > being the Mirror itself communicating. Or am I missing something? > Here's my problem with that part of the plot: If the mirror provides the stone only to the person who most wants to find it without using it, and Harry is one of the only people who can do that -- certainly neither LV nor Quirrel would fall into that category -- then doesn't it follow that the stone would have ultimately been safer, had Harry *not* gone down to rescue it? Also, none of the other trials before the mirror really make a difference, unless they were trying to prevent someone who doesn't want to use the stone from finding it. Why would they want that? Maybe this has come up already. :) It's just my thought. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu May 29 00:27:05 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:27:05 -0000 Subject: Confusuion-spies/lies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Also the Snape as a spy theory, if our assumptions about the future > are right, hinges on Snape being a double agent. That would mean that > DE's with a need to know, would have known that Voldemort sent Snape > to be a spy for Dumbledore. Let's face it, Dumbledore has spies in > Voldimort's organization, and we know that Peter was a spy against > Dumbledore. In a spy game like this, double agents would seem a very > reasonable assumption. > > Snape makes one grand gesture by divulging Voldemort information, with > Voldemort's knowledge and permission, to Dumbledore and that get's his > foot in the door. After that, his trickle of information is of the > 'too little too late' although accurate variety. Just enough to > maintain his credability. > > So, if Snape is really working for Dumbledore, I guess we could > consider him a triple agent. A DE who has enteted the service of > Dumbledore as a spy agianst Voldemort, who Voldemort thinks is spying > for him against Dumbledore, but in reality is a spy for Dumbledore > against Voldemort. > > So I don't think the limited public knowledge that Snape was a spy > works against him. The DE's think he was pretending to be a spy, but > actually assume he is still with Voldemort. The general wizard world > think he was a spy against Voldemort. This puts Snape in the perfect > position to go back to Voldemort and claim the samething everyone > else, like Lucius, claimed, has that he was just biding his time and > maintaining his cover waiting for some sign that Voldemort was back. > Me: I wonder... The more I think about this the more sense it makes that Snape's trial/interrogation/whatever was *not* secret. That it was, in fact, highly publicized--at least to those who count. (And only JKR knows who they are.) If Snape was publicly "cleared by this council" he has the WW on his side saying, "what a nice boy he is coming 'round like that" ~while at the same time~ he has the DE old-boys yukking it up saying, "Well played, Severus! Pulled the wool right over their eyes! How *did* you manage Dumbledore?" That would also explain why Karkaroff was so hell bent on turning him in...maybe he was trying to tell them Snape had gone right back to Voldemort AFTER being cleared by the council. Karkaroff was taken out still yelling about Snape, wasn't he? I don't have the book here. Mel, looking at this secret trial idea in a different light From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu May 29 00:35:48 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:35:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: [HPforGrownups} Quirrell and the Troll Message-ID: <50.1d59d19e.2c06afe4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58845 In a message dated 5/28/2003 6:12:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patgruenke at cloudnet.com writes: > > Jimmy Pickle wrote: > > > > Wouldn't the other staff have known what each one was doing to > > protect the stone - especially if it involved large three headed > > dogs, or stinky mountain trolls? > > And... If they knew about Quirrell's gift with trolls, wouldn't that > > raise questions regarding the earlier fainting episode? > > And... Why did he knock the troll out - surely if he'd just got round > > it it would have made a great rear-guard? > Pat replied: > > Hmmm. Good point. Even if the rest of the staff didn't know, > Dumbledore did. Here's a theory-- there wasn't a troll protecting the > stone until after Halloween!!! They used the "Halloween troll" to > defend the stone. Me (Cassie): I disagree with this theory. I don't have my book infront of me, but I'm sure it said that the troll that was defending the stone was bigger than the "Halloween Troll" > > I have my own theory. As far as I know, we don't KNOW when the stone defense was set up exactly. We know it spent some time at Gringotts -but do we know for how long? The whole thing could've been being planned long before Harry found out about it. Perhaps Quirrell made his 'contribution' before his little trip/breakdown. I personally think it was a small stroke of brilliance for him to act the way he did on Halloween. That would lead people to think: "He can't even handle THAT troll...he couldn't possibly handle his own now. I doubt he'd try to get the stone." Or something like that. What I'd like to know is how he knew where the Stone was in Gringotts XP ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Thu May 29 00:52:47 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] timing of the p-stone defenses In-Reply-To: <50.1d59d19e.2c06afe4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030529005247.79912.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58846 Cassie theorized: <<>> And now me (Odile): Cassie brings up an interesting point - we know that certain teachers (plus Hagrid) set up obstacles to getting the Philosopher's Stone, supposedly at Dumbledore's request. Fluffy was in place early in the school year - we know this because HRH plus Neville ran into him, and then Fluffy took a piece out of Snapes leg at Halloween (October/November.) What about the Mirror of Erised? Harry found it over the *Christmas* holidays - in December/January. He got busted by Dumbledore, who advised him that the Mirror was going to be moved. Why wasn't the Mirror in position in the first place? Did Dumbledore have reason to suspect something? Was Snape reporting his suspicions about Quirrell to him, perhaps? Or did Dumbledore (in MAGIC DISHWASHER mode??) place it in that room know that Harry would stumble upon it? What do you guys think? I doubt this is new - I would appreciate someone pointing me to a/the thread that has addressed this before, if such a one exists. Thanks! ^_^ From linlou43 at yahoo.com Thu May 29 01:42:24 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 01:42:24 -0000 Subject: Heirs and Decendants Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58847 First of all I would like to thank koticzka for the compliments. It's nice to know that someone agrees with some of my lines of reasoning. It's encouraging to know that my theories are at least not entirely in left field, or if they are, I have company out there. OK, time to swing for the top of the green monster ( but I'll settle for a ground rule double on the fair side of the Peski pole.) Sorry for the baseball analogies but I'm watching my beloved Red Sox play the Yankees as I type. OK. Deep breath. Sip of coffee. Back to Harry Potter world. There has been a lot of discussion about the heirs of the four school founders. For the purposes of this post, heirs by choice (or creed , worldview etc.- pick whatever term you prefer), will be referred to as heirs. Heirs by blood decendancy will be referred to as decendants. You'll find as I continue my arguments that a lot of what I have to say is based on the difference between the two. Also, I will not touch upon the heirs or decendants of Helga Hufflepuff or Winona Ravenclaw as this post will be plenty long enough without getting into that territory. Let's start with Salazar Slytherin. I see Riddle as both the heir and decendant of SS. catlady: > Altho' I would prefer a Potterverse in which TMR was NOT the last > descendent of Salazar Slytherin, as I like to imagine the Potterverse > with MANY people bragging that their families are descended from > Salazar Slytherin, including the Malfoys and the Snapes. "'You can speak Parseltongue, Harry,' said Dumbledore calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue'" (CoS, Ch. 18). I know that Dumbledore says that Riddle is the last remaining decendant of SS but I don't see that as necessarily being the end of the family bloodline. We don't have enough canon to make that determination one way or the other. Was SS an only child? Did he have any aunts or uncles that could have provided him with cousins? We simply don't have access to that information, and that is where my theorizing begins. I am going to work from the assumption that the bloodline from which SS came is still alive and well in the WW. Now for the gigantic leap of faith. ( Think Indiana Jones retreiving the Cup of Christ to save his father.) I think the Malfoy family is of the same decendancy as Tom Riddle, not directly from SS but perhaps from a sibling we have no knowlege of. Let's look at what we know about SS. According to the sorting hat in SS/PS, cunning is a trait that he prized. The Malfoy family certainly seems to ascribe to that method of operation. Why didn't SS want muggle born wizards in Hogwarts? He was afraid of muggles and anyone connected to them.(POS) Considering the era in which Hogwarts was built, that was a pefectly understandable concern. I don't, however, see him as hating muggles and their way of life, just as having a never the twain shall meet type of attitude. Allright, you're saying to yourself, that 's true enough, but how can you equate that to the Malfoys? They HATE muggles and muggle borns! I stated my reasoning for this in my earlier post ( if you really want to go back to original post it's digest # 58256) but in order to avoid the necessity of going back to it I'll reiterate here. Hatred, and by extension prejudice, is often a by-product of fear. As a species, we have a fear of the unknown, based in the instinct of self preservation. As a result of the initial fear, we distance ourselves from the different - either not making any attempt to learn more about that which we fear, or making the attempt and then backing away do to that good old self preservation instinct, never to try again. Generations pass and what our initial fear becomes animosity. Animosity turns to the other being perceived as an enemy the animosity which itself grows to hatred and prejudice. This gradual generational shift makes logical sense in re. to connecting the attitudes and fears of SS to the hatred and prejudice exhibited by the Malfoys. *sidenote* I realize this line of thinking would seem to exclude Tom Riddle as the heir. However, I see Riddle as having made the above described generational progression himself - from fear to hatred- while still in his formative years. Therefore, at the time that he opened the chamber, he was in the middle of that transition and was basing his actions on the need to eliminate that which he had been taught to fear from a very early age. The desertion by his muggle father instilled a deep mistrust of muggles in general and it is this distrust that he shared with SS. In Riddle this distrust and hatred led to a path that I do not completely believe SS would have followed but the basic sentiment remains consistant. Pip!Squeak wrote: > > > I actually think it more likely that Arthur Weasley is the heir > of > > Gryffindor,not Harry. The Weasley family's given names are all > > either based on Arthurian legend or on names used by the British > > Royal Family. It suggests that, like the Malfoys, they're > > wizarding 'royalty'. > > > > [The Malfoy's also have 'royal' names. Lucius brings to mind > > the 'Prince of Darkness' and Draco connects with 'Pendragon'.] > > > > This is in keeping with the 'choices, rather than abilities' theme > > throughout the books so far. Tom Riddle *chose* to be the Heir of > > Slytherin. > >snip, snip,snip< > > > Equally, Harry has made a series of choices throughout the book. > He > > has chosen to be a Gryffindor, chosen to fight Voldemort, chosen > to > > return evil with good, chosen to remain a wizard. Harry is going > > through a 'growing-up' process where he chooses to be Gryffindor's > > spiritual heir. > > >snipping RIddle's growing up process< > > > Blood versus choices. Perhaps Harry, with no bloodline, is the > true > > heir to Gryffindor (over his friend Ron, who has the bloodline). > Tom > > Riddle, with the bloodline, is the false heir to Slytherin. As noted above I don't agree with the final line of the above post but that need not mean that I think the rest of the quote is any less valid. And that leads us to Godric Gryffindor. I am not as sure about the heir of GG. I know that the popular answer to this question would be Harry, but I'm not entirely convinced. I understand the referance to Godric's Hollow which has been cited by many of my fellow listees but the arguments that place names are often taken from famous people ring true with me. I also see the merit of the continuing battle theory (ie.SS/GG), however, there is to this point no cannon that GG's heir is necessary componant to the defeat/demise of LV. The point on this topic that actually made the biggest impression on me was made by Darrin: > It is conceivable that the whole Heir business is limited to Salazar > Slytherin. >snip, snip, snip< > Now, we've gone under the assumption that Godric would also have his > Heir working against Salazar, but it's possible that there isn't one, > and Harry is just an honorable, good person who happens to be in > Gryffindor. As I haven't made up my own mind in regards to GG's heir, I'll leave that discussion to listees with stronger opinions on the subject. However, that does not mean that I don't have a strong opinion on GG's decendants. IMHO, we have already met no less than eight blood decendants of Godric...Arthur Weasley and his seven children. I don't have a lot of canon to back this up but please bear with me. They represent the very antithesis of what the Malfoys stand for. In my mind the most telling point is Arthur's attitude toward muggles. The split betwwen GG and SS occured mainly because GG wanted to allow muggle borns into Hogwarts as long as they had magical talent (CoS) and SS feared what would happen if they were to attend. Once again fear, or the lack thereof, is the center of my argument. SS feared the muggles, GG accepted them. Malfoy hates the muggles with seemingly no rhyme or reason. Arthur craves to learn more about them and their way of life. Where the fear of the other is absent, so to is the hatred. ( To my fellow trekkies: I know I'm getting into the territory of Vulcan philosophy but I can't help it.) The point is that both Arthur and GG are chacterized by curiosity about, as opposed to fear of, the unknown. This curiosity, like the fear I extrapolated upon in the above section on SS and the Malfoys, is passed down through generations of family. This is further exhibited by the Weasley children. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I know that is cliche but sayings become cliche because they contain truth. Even when we have been shown Ron's prejudice, it is shown alongside awillingness on his part to learn whether or not the prejudice he feels is based in fact and to make a decision based on that knowlage. A quote from my earlier post: > I read on another site a theory that Trellaway's first > prediction may have been that the heir of Gryffindor would defeat > the heir of Slytherin. Could this be a confrontation between the > blood heirs, Arthur and Lucius? The animosity is most certainly > already there. Could the twist be that the prophecy actually had > nothing to do with Harry at all and that what happened that > halloween night was a totally seperate matter? Maybe the prophecy > said the two heirs of each founder-the blood heir and the heir by > choice would combine to unite the WW and the muggle world. Or maybe > it was that the two heirs from Gryffindor would combine their > respective strengths to defeat the two heirs of Slytherine. Maybe LV > thought that was James and Harry? Whether I'm correct or not is yet to be seen, but I can't wait to start the next leg of the journey to that knowlege and the answers to many other questions. - Linda... The journey IS the true destination. From guardianapcelt at yahoo.com Thu May 29 01:42:23 2003 From: guardianapcelt at yahoo.com (guardianapcelt) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 01:42:23 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58848 Pickle Jimmy wrote: > So, Lockhart goes off on one of his rants, and drops the first >spell > he thinks of that could kill a cat - it could just have easily been > Wingardium Leviosa (lift Mrs Norris 40 feet into the air and drop her > on her head) - just because a Spell/Charm/Jinx/Curse could be used in > some means to cause harm, does it make it automatically unforgivable? > > Me: Lockhart is seriously underestimated. The man may be a horrible wizard, but he managed to trick multiple powerful wizards and witches into telling him their stories. His problem is that he has become so full of himself that he actually thinks he can pull off the deeds he recorded in his works. But would he be dense enough to mention a nonexistant curse in front of Dumbledore as the source for a fairly substantial issue with Filtch's apparently dead cat? His employer, the man acknowledged as the most powerful sorceror in the world? That's a little too blatant an act of stupidity, even for him. Like as not he'd heard about the curse, knew the symptoms from second hand information, and was trying to impress everyone with his knowledge. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 29 02:18:28 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 02:18:28 -0000 Subject: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "innermurk" wrote: > Maybe I'm being naive here, but since when was there ever going to be > a character named icicle? Some one posted the link to this quote and here's what it says. Yahooligan_siddharth: Is there really a new character named Icicle in your next book? JR: Where are you people getting this stuff?! No, nobody called icicle, I promise. So the speculation about Icicle has been dismissed for me, now. JK says even she doesnt know where it came from. Rumours, eh? However, JK did say she was introducing the first truly evil female character in GOF does anyone know where I can find that quote? >From Valky From mmemalkin at yahoo.com Thu May 29 02:23:53 2003 From: mmemalkin at yahoo.com (mmemalkin) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 02:23:53 -0000 Subject: Pigs and Hogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gopotter2004" wrote: > I've checked and checked... And was unable to find this around. So, > I thought I would bring it up. Maybe it's just a British thing (that > was my mum's thought). But it isn't quite normal to have this much > *pork* in a book, in my humble opinion. > > HOGwarts > HOGsmeade > HOG's Head > PIGwidgeon > PIG snout (the password) > Hagrid gives Dudley a PIG's tail when he gets upset MmeMalkin adds: "...the carriage trundled toward a pair of magnificent wrought iron gates, flanked with stone columns topped with winged boars..." (a description of the entrance to Hogwarts - PoA-The Dementors) Is JKR trying to say, "when pigs fly?" ~Diane From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 29 02:35:00 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 02:35:00 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > Brief Chronicles wrote:> > > Here's my problem with that part of the plot: > If the mirror provides the stone only to the person who most wants to find it > without using it, and Harry is one of the only people who can do that -- > certainly neither LV nor Quirrel would fall into that category -- then doesn't it > follow that the stone would have ultimately been safer, had Harry *not* gone > down to rescue it? Me (Valky): I have pondered this exact subject myself. What I am thinking is you are absolutely correct. The stone was safe in the mirror. However, if you have ever lost something that you wanted to use, you may relate. After some time trying to obtain it for using you begin to tire and become frustrated. At some point in this haze you can start to lose your focus for your original intention. When that happens you may either walk away or begin to only care if you accomplish the goal that frustrates you, ie finding the lost device. Hence I put the argument that DD knew the stone being hidden from those who wanted to use it may eventually fail. The fact that it would be revealed to those who wanted to find it but not use it was a brilliant contingency rather than a foolproof protection. THis is because the one who simply wanted to find it would obtain it in a shorter time than someone who wanted to use it, should that second party get to the psychological point where they might actually get the stone. In summary, I think that Harry and the other protections were always relevant to the protection of the stone. The Mirror of Erised was a great protection with added contingency. Not, however, foolproof. OOP is released right after my last exam! I am so happy!!!! From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Thu May 29 03:58:07 2003 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adopted!Harry & HarrySavesHarry In-Reply-To: <000b01c31ed9$80cc1220$a809fea9@f2m8k9> Message-ID: <20030529035807.68885.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58852 Having finally read through the Adopted!Harry/HarrySavesHarry thread (hope I found all the posts!), I have a quibble with the theory. This is not a quibble over logistics and 'method.' No, I find the essential premise shaky, which is too bad because the dilemmas are quite interesting. Since this is TAS's guess as to what JKR will present as Voldemort's understanding of immortality and how to achieve it, I am unsure whose view of godhood is supposed to be at work here. TAS, in part: > ...as we know, Voldemort's main > goal is immortality and absolute > power, and, I propose, he > discovered a way to attain not > just "ordinary" immortality and > absolute power, but something even > greater: a form of dark godhood; > not just living without end, but > becoming a being "without > beginning and without end" as G-d > is. And part of the magic that > would accomplish this godhood > would require getting rid of his > beginning killing his own infant > self. See, I consider the condition of being "without beginning and without end" to be a fairly minor attribute of that which we consider divine. The divine (what TAS termed godhood or G-d) is ever-present and OUTside the field of time and is THEREBY considered to be "without beginning and without end." To be concerned with the elimination of beginnings or endings is by definition dealing with issues of and relationships to time. As I don't consider such an attribute to be an essential part of what makes a divinity divine, I find the usage of it as part of the means to achieve divinity very unsatisfactory. In other words, the divine does not achieve divinity BECAUSE it satisfied the condition of having no beginning and no end... ...the divine simply IS. The "without beginning and without end" part is merely a description of the state of being divine; to consider it a CONDITION of becoming divine (which is how I am reading what TAS termed as the magic that would accomplish this godhood) and thereby achieving immortality oversimplify the process through which one rise above the mortal coil...no matter how one defines such a process. Only with this all-too-literal reading of the figurative description of divinity, can "killing his own infant self" = "getting rid of his beginning" and thereby put Voldemort on the road to immortality. Y'know, you really CAN'T unring a bell...once a mortal has begun, there's no truly meaningful way to eliminate his/her beginning. Yes, 'it's magic!' but ultimately the books' themes must explore the human condition...or else it's just really fun pulp. Of course, if I am reading this theory incorrectly, I hope TAS would enlighten me. Having said all that, your scenario would be fine with me if this flawed understanding of divinity is held by Voldemort and is thematically explored. One way to do so might be to root Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort in the fact that Harry comes to understand what Voldemort couldn't. Otherwise, I will personally be sorely disappointed. Petra, late again - sorry! a n :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From maidne at yahoo.com Thu May 29 01:31:43 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 01:31:43 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58853 Hope this hasn't already been discussed to death -- when Fred and George give Harry the Marauder's Map they tell him "Don't bother with the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter, but it's caved in -- completely blocked." So does that tunnel connect to the Chamber of Secrets tunnel? And if so, where else does it lead, because it seems pretty unlikely that F&G have ever been into the Chamber. I also noticed that when Harry looks at the map for the first time he sees Dumbledore, Mrs. Norris, and Peeves. Not himself, Fred, and George. After Fred and George leave he looks at it again and sees that a figure labeled "Harry Potter" has *appeared* on it. And that little figure isn't just standing there, doing what Harry is doing, it's actually showing him what to do next. This seems to indicate that the map is selective in who it shows, which is probably why Fred and George never saw Peter Pettigrew on it, but Lupin did. It also seems to indicate that when someone does show up on the map, the viewer should pay attention to who it is and what they're doing (Bartemious Crouch). Anyone have anything to add or subtract? Susan From distractedone at comcast.net Thu May 29 04:35:22 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:35:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA position. Message-ID: <001701c3259b$b79500a0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58854 "cello_siok" said: > Do you think to be a DADA professor, that person must know how to do > dark arts? I think my grammer is wrong. What I mean was the person > who teaches DADA also know how to perform dark arts. Do you think it > is logical? Snape knows a lot of dark arts and he wanted that job > badly (if it's true)but Dumbledore puts him as potion professor. I don't know if they need to know how per se, but they do need to know how to block curses and dark spells that can be blocked. Snape does have an affinity for the dark arts and a great deal of knowledge of them. It was pointed out in PoA though that he is very good with potions ch8 pg157 when Lupin states "I am lucky to be working alongside Professor Snape; there aren't many wizards who are up to making it." talking about the Wolfsbane potion. So I believe that is why Dumbledore keeps Snape as potions master which I believe is harder to master. Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 29 05:46:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 05:46:39 -0000 Subject: Confusuion-spies/lies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > > ..edited... > > Peggy again: > > > Is it really a secret that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore? > > bboy_mn (Steve) again: > > > I believe it is a limited secret. > > Me again (Peggy): > > This is a point of confusion for me ? Dumbledore makes the > announcement that Snape was a DE but turned spy for the good guys in > front of "at least" 200 witches and wizards at Karkaroff's trial, > ...edited... > The only way I can make this make sense is if the 200 witches and > wizards at the trial are sworn to secrecy. But even that theory > falls down when we see Rita Skeeter at Bagman's trial with her > Quick-Quotes Quill in action. Perhaps some trials are secret and > others aren't? I just don't know. > bboy_mn now replies: I want to make a small distinction here, Karkaroff already had his trial, so the scene we see in the Pensive is a hearing, and it may not have been a public hearing. I may only be open to interested parties like law enforcement, Aurors, victims representatives, jurors, lawyers (barristers, solicitors, ...), government representatives, etc.... In that event, it is possible that the results of the 'deal' were not intended to be made public for the protection of the witness. True those people in attendance did hear Dumbledore mention his previous testimony in a previous hearing. I want to interupt here to point out that Dumbledore's testimony about Snape was also probably NOT in a public forum but a closed hearing or investigation questioning. The same with Dumbledore comments about Black. Dumbledore's testimony about Black being the Secret Keeper could have also come in a closed hearing or an investigative questioning. Back to my point, I don't feel that the people in this particular hearing went out and made the details of what happened public knowledge. Can't prove it, but the logic fits the likely circumstances. Now the Bagman scene in the Pensive was indeed a public trial. This fact re-enforced by the presents of a newspaper reporter. Logic says that the government wants to make a public spectical of catching a criminal, but wants to keep it quiet when they make a deal with a criminal and let him go. > > > ...edited.... > > bboy_mn (Steve) again: > > > Interesting point implied here; we know what FAKE!Moody thought of > > Snape, but we really have no idea how the real Moody views him. > > Now me: > > Oh, but I think we do have an idea of how the real Moody views Snape > ? when Harry witnesses Karkaroff's trial in the Pensieve, .... > > ~Phyllis bboy_mn replies: Thanks for the reminder of Moody's comments about Snape during the Pensive trials and hearings, I had forgotten about that, and also, thanks for the canon reference regarding DE's knowing each other. But it does re-enforce what I said about Moody. Moody looks skeptical during Dumbledore's comments about Snape; as I said, his skepticism is likely fuel by a little more logic and reason than FAKE!Moody's. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From hieya at hotmail.com Thu May 29 05:58:58 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 05:58:58 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58856 Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left Hogwarts? Lupin would have been in a better position than Sirius to advise Harry when he was entered into the Triwizard Tournament. Does Lupin's strange behavior bother anyone else? I was bothered by Black and Lupin's incredibly Muggle way of transporting Pettigrew at the end of PoA. Why didn't they do to him what Hermione did to Rita Skeeter at the end of GoF? Do wizards not rationalize, or should their behavior be attributed to the trauma of the evening? If Lupin was part of the "old crowd" as Dumbledore says at the end of GoF, then why did Sirius and James suspect him to be the spy? Does that suggest that they also suspected everyone else in the "old crowd" (including Dumbledore perhaps) to be working against them? greatlit2003, who loves Lupin and hopes Pettigrew doesn't kill him... From L.Kelly at uq.net.au Thu May 29 02:01:33 2003 From: L.Kelly at uq.net.au (Kelly) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:01:33 +1000 Subject: Cho Chang isn't Japanese! References: <20030524034850.39182.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ED569FD.7060802@uq.net.au> No: HPFGUIDX 58857 Ok, I'm de-lurking for my first post to put my two cents in on Cho Chang's origins. Some people have been saying (I'm sorry I can't find the exact post at the moment!) that she may be Japanese, but her name definately isn't. It isn't the hard 'g' which isn't in Japanese, its the 'ng' sound. Almost all Japanese letters are actually one entire syllable, and you rarely find two consonants together (though when you do they are gennerally part of the same letter). Some examples of Japanese letters in english: "a" "i" "u" "e" "o" "ka" "ki" "ku" "ke" "ko" "ta" "chi" "tsu" "te" "to" "sa" "shi" "su" "se" "so" - and so on. Also in regards to Cho Chang's height as evidence: the Japanese are actually usually taller than other peoples in the region. Personally I think her name makes her most likely Chinese, it doesn't sound very Korean to me (though I must admit I know very little about Korean, so maybe it is?) Her surname however sounds very Chinese. (I'm assuming Chang is her surname because most Chinese and Japanese people I've met here - Australia - give their name in western order when living here. Is it different in Britain?) Tanya. From aashby.aashby at verizon.net Thu May 29 02:16:21 2003 From: aashby.aashby at verizon.net (theatresm2002) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 02:16:21 -0000 Subject: Modern Plumbing (was Re: Heir of Slytherin and Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58858 BBoy: > say that the wizard world is easily as old as you speculated and perhaps > even older. It could be at the foundation of the lost 'worlds' like > Atlantis, and Shangri La. It would answer many mysteries like how > could the pyrimids get build with such primitive technology? Easy > with magic. > bboy_mn Mmmmmm. So perhaps wizards *had* to disseminate into the Muggle population because their world was destroyed/lost? A diaspora, of sorts? theatresm From freddie_mac1 at yahoo.com Thu May 29 02:24:11 2003 From: freddie_mac1 at yahoo.com (freddie mac) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: <1054168033.5172.21721.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030529022411.55954.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58859 Hi all --- I've recently begun thinking about transfiguration etc., and would like some input. Of course, if this has been discussed in detail earlier, please redirect me. I think it is fairly well established that wizards cannot make something out of nothing. For example, a book can be made out of a a glass, but not out of empty air. Here then, is my question: While wizards can change the shape of something (glass to book), can they change the *essence* of something from the original object to the new object? This is a bit clearer (or more convoluted, depending on your perspective) if you consider living things. A ferret (*grin*) can be changed into a human-shaped ferret, but can the essence of a ferret be changed into the essence of a human? When I think about transfiguration, I have a sense that the outer form is changed, but not necessarily the inner/intrinsic aspects. If you change a ferret into a human-shaped ferret, does the ferret gain human senses, reasoning, soul (for lack of a better term), or is the ferret simply reshaped into a human-like shape? I hope this is clear, but if not let me know and I'll try to clarify things. Thanks, Freddie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From kemp at arcom.com.au Thu May 29 03:26:14 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 03:26:14 -0000 Subject: Quirrell and the Troll In-Reply-To: <39.391c467b.2c05cb3b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58860 Pickle Jimmy said: ================== > Now my Question(s): > Wouldn't the other staff have known what each one was doing to > protect the stone - especially if it involved large three headed > dogs, or stinky mountain trolls? > And... If they knew about Quirrell's gift with trolls, wouldn't that > raise questions regarding the earlier fainting episode? > And... Why did he knock the troll out - surely if he'd just got round > it it would have made a great rear-guard? > Nic Replied: ============ > No, the other teachers don't know about each others enchantments - Quirrell > had to investigate each one in order to get to the stone, which is why it took > him a year to attempt it. Snape several times asked him how far he was > getting, and of course the most obvious one was Fluffy, because its the first thing > he faces at Halloween. Of course the teachers knew that each other was > protecting the stone, since Hagrid knew there were other enchantments, but they > don't know what they are. Quirrell was expecting to just see the stone once he > got past all of them but of course, Dumbledore's last enchantment he hadnt > bothered to research. Because he wasnt expecting it. I am guessing, that every > teacher knew about Fluffy because they would have to know to keep students away > from the 3rd corridor. So, with them not knowing about Quirrells gift with > Trolls, they wouldnt of suspected anything on Halloween (except for Snape). Pickle Jimmy blocks the attempt to score: ========================================= Far be it from me to argue :-) BUT... In your response to my question you state 1) "the other teachers don't know about each others enchantments" This is a quote from PS/SS when Hagrid tells HRH who is garding the stone... Harry knew Ron and Hermione were thinking the same as he was. If Snape had been in on protecting the Stone, it must have been easy to find out how the other teachers had guarded it. He probably knew everything -- except, it seemed, Quirrell's spell and how to get past Fluffy. So, if HRH thought that those involved in protecting the stone would at least know what each other had used, where is the Canon that says they didnt? 2) "Quirrell had to investigate each one in order to get to the stone, which is why it took him a year to attempt it" 3) "Snape several times asked him how far he was getting" The only occasion that I could find in which Snape confronts Quirrell is after the Quidditch match when they go in to the forrest... "... d-don't know why you wanted t-t-to meet here of all p-places, Severus..." "Oh, I thought we'd keep this private," said Snape, his voice icy. "Students aren't supposed to know about the Sorcerer's Stone, after all." Harry leaned forward. Quirrell was mumbling something. Snape interrupted him. "Have you found out how to get past that beast of Hagrid's yet?" Which suggests that the main unknown obstacle in getting to the stone was Fluffy - I found no evidence that Quirrell investigated any other staff, or any other occasion when Snape interrogated him (though I stand to be corrected) So, back to my original question - I, like HRH, assumed that all the teachers that were protecting the stone would have at least has some idea of the other "enchantments" - especially if it were something large and dangerous like Fluffy or a Troll. So why weren't the staff suprised with wimp!quirrell at halloween? Pickle Jimmy From kemp at arcom.com.au Thu May 29 04:38:10 2003 From: kemp at arcom.com.au (pickle_jimmy) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 04:38:10 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58861 > Here's my problem with that part of the plot: Brief Chronicles Wrote: > If the mirror provides the stone only to the person who most wants to find it > without using it, and Harry is one of the only people who can do that -- > certainly neither LV nor Quirrel would fall into that category -- then doesn't it > follow that the stone would have ultimately been safer, had Harry *not* gone > down to rescue it? > > Also, none of the other trials before the mirror really make a difference, > unless they were trying to prevent someone who doesn't want to use the stone > from finding it. Why would they want that? > My thoughts: At the start of the school term - 1) Fluffy was already at the school - the student's are warned about him (it) 2) The stone is at the school - hagrid took it from vault 713 in July and brought it to the hogwarts (the only place safer than gringotts) 3) I assume, if fluffy is already there, all the enchantments (etc) are already set up at the same time 4) The mirror though, is currently not protecting the stone - it's in a classroom waiting for Harry to stumble across it So, maybe Dumbledore has some other "piece of magic" (one that is not as clever as the Mirror of Erised protection) protecting it at this time and needs the other teacher's encharntments for added protection. Now *my* question: In the word's of Dumbledore "You see, only one who wanted to find the Stone -- find it, but not use it -- would be able to get it" If this is the case, why couldn't Quirrell get the stone? He didn't want to use it, that was Voldemort. He may have wanted to get it for Voldemort, but didn't harry want to get it for Dumbledore? Pickle Jimmy From distractedone at comcast.net Thu May 29 04:50:43 2003 From: distractedone at comcast.net (Merlin) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:50:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye References: <1a6.1536c00f.2c0375a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <002f01c3259d$dc58b4c0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58862 Nic xx asked > Would Voldemort be so foolish to let such a thing happen? > I tend not to think about that one line out of all the books, it just makes > my head hurt, I just tend to think 'Well, Dumbledore knows something that > Voldemort doesn't.' Well Voldemort did try and kill Harry after watching Lilly sacrifice her life for him. Could it be that is Voldemorts one true weakness? Is he so full of himself and his supposed invincibility that he leaves himself vulnerable to true goodness? Merlin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu May 29 05:40:58 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 05:40:58 -0000 Subject: How Riddle Knew He Was A Descendant of Slytherin (WAS: Heir defined) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58863 <<>> <<>> (i'm jdr, a new kid) We know (Ron mentions it at one point) that wizards and muggles would have to intermarry: science tells us that 'racial purity' is a euphemism for inbreeding -- just compare the genetic hardiness of the Weasleys to the pallid purebred Malfoys or Crouches! So what if Riddle's Slytherin heritage was not through his witch mother, but through his 'rich, snobbish and rude' paternal line? Say, for instance, that the wizarding gene went dormant at some point and an embittered squib Slytherin renounced the wizarding world forever... It could happen! "JDR" From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu May 29 06:05:16 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 06:05:16 -0000 Subject: DADA position. In-Reply-To: <001701c3259b$b79500a0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58864 <<< wrote: > "cello_siok" said: > > > Do you think to be a DADA professor, that person must know how to do > > dark arts? I think my grammer is wrong. What I mean was the person > > who teaches DADA also know how to perform dark arts. Do you think it > > is logical? Snape knows a lot of dark arts and he wanted that job > > badly (if it's true)but Dumbledore puts him as potion professor > > I don't know if they need to know how per se, but they do need to know how to block curses and dark spells that can be blocked....>>>> I was a nuclear/biological/chemical warfare defense specialist in the US Army for 12 years, and we had just that sort of issue! The bottom line was that the offensive end of the equation was mostly a matter for research scientists and other rarified folk. Downrange, our mission was to teach the troops how to use gas masks and Geiger counters and things like that, and maybe lay down the occasional smoke cloud or flame minefield. "JDR" From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 29 09:47:31 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:47:31 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pickle_jimmy" > > > > Also, none of the other trials before the mirror really make a > difference,unless they were trying to prevent someone who doesn't want to use the stone from finding it. Why would they want that? > > > > > Pickles Thoughts: > > At the start of the school term - > 1) Fluffy was already at the school - the student's are warned about him (it) > 2) The stone is at the school - hagrid took it from vault 713 in July and brought it to the hogwarts (the only place safer than gringotts) > 3) I assume, if fluffy is already there, all the enchantments (etc) > are already set up at the same time > 4) The mirror though, is currently not protecting the stone - it's in a classroom waiting for Harry to stumble across it So, maybe Dumbledore has some other "piece of magic" (one that is not as clever as the Mirror of Erised protection) protecting it at this time and needs the other teacher's encharntments for added protection. > Valky (me): In relation to this I agree I think that the protections were systematically added to the Third floor corridor over the course of the year. As such the stone was less protected whilst in Flufy only's keep but more so because only Hagrid knew at that time how to pass him. > Now *my* question: >In the word's of Dumbledore "You see, only one who wanted to find the Stone -- find it, but not use it -- would be able to get it" > If this is the case, why couldn't Quirrell get the stone? He didn't > want to use it, that was Voldemort. He may have wanted to get it for Voldemort, but didn't harry want to get it for Dumbledore? > > Valky (me): Doesn't Quirrel envision himself making the elixir of life in the mirror. I presume that whomever the potion maybe for the acting of making it could be classified as using the stone. Thats how I understand it. From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 29 10:10:31 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:10:31 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups} Quirrell and the Troll In-Reply-To: <50.1d59d19e.2c06afe4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/28/2003 6:12:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > patgruenke at c... writes: > > > > > Jimmy Pickle wrote: > > > > > > > Wouldn't the other staff have known what each one was doing to > > > protect the stone - especially if it involved large three headed > > > dogs, or stinky mountain trolls? > > > And... If they knew about Quirrell's gift with trolls, wouldn't that > > > raise questions regarding the earlier fainting episode? Cassie wrote:> > > I have my own theory. As far as I know, we don't KNOW when the stone defense > was set up exactly. We know it spent some time at Gringotts -but do we know > for how long? The whole thing could've been being planned long before Harry > found out about it. > > Perhaps Quirrell made his 'contribution' before his little trip/breakdown. I > personally think it was a small stroke of brilliance for him to act the way he > did on Halloween. That would lead people to think: > > "He can't even handle THAT troll...he couldn't possibly handle his own now. I doubt he'd try to get the stone." > > Or something like that. > > What I'd like to know is how he knew where the Stone was in Gringotts XP > Valky (me): THis is the most plausible explanation I have seen for this problem. To which I had no real answer before. It covers a few issue neatly. Firstly being how the other teachers handled seeing Quirrel faint at Halloween, secondly of course an explanation for their dismissal of his erratic behaviour since the beginning of the year and donning the Turban. Harry explained away his looking tired and about to crack with his assumption that Snape was causing Quirrel grief. It makes perfect sense that the teachers also may have been excusing his apathy against the Troll with their own views on the event coinciding with the decline in his appearance. I would also like to know how he got the information on where the stone was in Gringotts. The fact that he could find out so easily is most likely to be why DD sent Hagrid to retrieve the stone in the first place. Endless speculation to be had about hows and whys. No time left to do it sorry. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu May 29 10:21:57 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:21:57 -0000 Subject: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: <002f01c3259d$dc58b4c0$7e302b44@ao.lop.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Merlin wrote: > Nic xx asked > > > Would Voldemort be so foolish to let such a thing happen? > > I tend not to think about that one line out of all the books, it just makes > > my head hurt, I just tend to think 'Well, Dumbledore knows something that > > Voldemort doesn't.' > > Well Voldemort did try and kill Harry after watching Lilly sacrifice her life for him. Could it be that is Voldemorts one true weakness? Is he so full of himself and his supposed invincibility that he leaves himself vulnerable to true goodness? > Valky(me): To me, the gleam is definately a clue as to what will happen to Voldemort now Harrys blood is in his veins. Most speculate that DD smells triumph *over* Voldie. To me this does not ring true to the sense of triumph I believe worthy of DD. I am sure that true triumph for Dumbledore would be the conquest of LOVE over the Evil in LV. DD is a passive existentialist by nature I am sure from what I have read. I do not believe for a second that personal conquest would satisfy him in the least. The gleam in his eye is symbolic of DD's firm belief that LV does not understand love at all. He has taken Lily's love and Harry's love into himself confusing it for power. Dumbledore notches one up for compassion and goodness. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slinkie at nids.se Thu May 29 10:52:25 2003 From: slinkie at nids.se (eledhwen_0) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:52:25 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > > > I was bothered by Black and Lupin's incredibly Muggle way of > transporting Pettigrew at the end of PoA. Why didn't they do to him > what Hermione did to Rita Skeeter at the end of GoF? Do wizards not > rationalize, or should their behavior be attributed to the trauma of > the evening? > I have also always been bothered by their increadible stupidity that night. I never thought of the Rita Skeeter way of handeling Pettigrew though. I simply wondered why Lupin and Sirius didn't just stun him (as this seems to be a spell most wizards know how to perform) and carry him up to the castle while he was unconscious, thereby making it imposible for him to escape. I know that he has to escape for the plot for the next books to work, but still it seem that Lupin and Sirius choose one of the worst and most risky alternatives of detaining Pettigrew. Eledhwen From drmm at fuuko.com Thu May 29 11:46:38 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:46:38 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure (was: Re: Harry's Sacrifice. / Sorting and Character Traits) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote:> Annemehr: <<> A short while ago, there was a thread going on discussing whether, for thematic reasons, Harry might need to *fail* at something important, since he hasn't so far. The most prominent conlusion reached at that time was that some action of his would result in the loss of someone's life. However, if Harry is to have a failure, I think you might have hit on just what that might be -- the failure to make just this sacrifice of someone else's life when it is needed. On the other hand, I think you will get some argument from the list about whether he actually *should* do such a thing. Personally, I'm not so sure either way and will have to think about it some more.>>> I'd be interested to read this thread (must have joined after it finished) as I've always thought Harry needs to fail in a big way in order for him to grow. While others may disagree, I've always thought that Harry tends to be careless, reckless and just a touch arrogant. Let me explain why. PS/SS: In the first book, Harry & Ron race into the bathroom to fight a troll. They both could have run off to find a teacher and explain what they saw but they rush in and fight it themselves. They never consider the consequences, which could have been deadly. In a somewhat more iffy example, Harry rushes off to try and stop Quirrel *by himself*. While he recognizes the danger, he at least thinks he at least has a chance to stop him, which has always seemed a bit arrogant to me. As we find out when we read the story, if Hermione hadn't been there, Harry would have been stopped at the second challenge. True, what he does is brave and courageous and he at least *tried* to tell the teachers but, IMO, he showed a lack of trust in Dumbledore and a touch of arrogance in his assumption that he, an 11 year old, might have a chance to defeat the teachers challenges and fight Quirrel. CoS: What reckless things DIDN'T Harry do in CoS? He doesn't tell Dumbledore he's a Parseltounge. He rushes off to the Forbidden Forest, knowing full well how dangerous it is and nearly dies. And the thing that has always annoyed me -- knowing the location of the Chamber and after discovering what a completely incompetent person Lockheart was (which he already suspected), he and Ron didn't go ask another teacher for help. Instead, he and Ron go to the chamber themselves -- knowing that they're going to face a very dangerous monster. PoA: There are a lot of things that happen here. Harry doesn't even consider that Hermione might be right about the Firebolt (not to mention how badly he treats her when he's angry about it). He runs off to Hogsmede, knowing that a killer is after his life. When Ron is attacked, he again rushes straight into a dangerous situation rather than asking for help. If Sirius Black *had* been a Death Eater, he would have been dead the minute he entered the door. And while we don't know this for sure, if Harry had gone to the school for help, someone else could have seen Peter and Sirius would have been proven innocent. GoF: This is the book where I think Harry's *finally* starting to think about things more. In fact, I can't think of one thing that Harry does that he isn't forced to do because of his unwilling participation in the Tournament (Well, he should have told Dumbledore about his dreams.). In all of these books, Harry has survived out of luck and with the help of his friends. I admit that if Harry weren't the typical storybook hero, these books would be very boring and short, so Harry *needs* to do some of these things. I just think that, if JKR wants to show a real growth in Harry, some of the things he does will have to change. Sometimes a hero has to think ahead and not rush into things. Until GoF, I think Harry was treating most of these things as a game. They were adventures and he wasn't really thinking seriously about the consequences. If Harry fails, I think it will cost the life of someone he cares about. And for Harry to learn and grow the most, it should be his own carelessness that causes it. I predict that the death most people think will happen in OOtP will be caused because Harry does something stupid -- and is caught because of it. Or at least in book 6. DrMM From lennyb2002 at yahoo.com Thu May 29 09:13:27 2003 From: lennyb2002 at yahoo.com (lennyb2002) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:13:27 -0000 Subject: How Riddle Knew He Was A Descendant of Slytherin (WAS: Heir defined) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58870 > In response to Phyllis' ponderings about how Voldemort would have found out > that he was a descendant of Slytherin, Innermurk suggested: > > > Here's an idea, what if the Sorting Hat told him? > The Sorting Hat could have told Riddle if Riddle already knew or believed he was the heir at sorting time. It is an interesting suggestion though. The sorting hat is the only character to have known the four founders and every student that passed through Hogwarts. It seems strange that Harry has not discussed his parents or family with the hat, no? Perhaps Riddle though did research on his lineage and asked the hat- tracing himself back to Salazar. My theory is that it was discovered for him. Riddle arrived at Hogwarts during Grindewald's rise, and leaves shortly after his fall. If the 'heir' represents some sort of power, then Grindewald was seeking to kill the heirs. Grindewald discovers he was missing one Tom Riddle. He penetrates Hogwarts and closes in on Riddle. However, Dumbledore slays him and saves Riddle's life. If Dumbledore or Riddle knew the lineage prior to this, Grindewald made certain. If Grindelwald was the second to last descendant of Slytherin, his death informs Riddle that he is now the last. Thanks! lennyb From girl_about_town at lycos.de Thu May 29 10:31:45 2003 From: girl_about_town at lycos.de (donna_immaculata) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:31:45 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maidne" wrote: > Hope this hasn't already been discussed to death -- when Fred and > George give Harry the Marauder's Map they tell him "Don't bother with > the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last > winter, but it's caved in -- completely blocked." So does that > tunnel connect to the Chamber of Secrets tunnel? And if so, where > else does it lead, because it seems pretty unlikely that F&G have > ever been into the Chamber. Susan, That's an intersting idea, however, the tunnel leading to the Chamber of Secrets caved in at the end of term, so why should have they abandoned it in winter already? But the tunnel network under the castle is probably quite comprehensive and more complicated than we know. I've always been amazed about there being only seven tunnels leading out of the castle. OTOH - the seven tunnels mentioned all lead to Hogsmeade. Maybe there are other ones that lead somewhere else, which have not been relevant yet? Which would go along with the theory you state below: > > I also noticed that when Harry looks at the map for the first time he > sees Dumbledore, Mrs. Norris, and Peeves. Not himself, Fred, and > George. After Fred and George leave he looks at it again and sees > that a figure labeled "Harry Potter" has *appeared* on it. And that > little figure isn't just standing there, doing what Harry is doing, > it's actually showing him what to do next. This seems to indicate > that the map is selective in who it shows, which is probably why Fred > and George never saw Peter Pettigrew on it, but Lupin did. It also > seems to indicate that when someone does show up on the map, the > viewer should pay attention to who it is and what they're doing > (Bartemious Crouch). > > Anyone have anything to add or subtract? > > Susan I'd go along with this idea. After all, depending on how many students there are in Hogwarts, the Map would have to show more than 1000 people at once if it was showing everybody in the castle. How confusing! Therefore, I believe it is indeed selective. It probably only shows people who are currently breaking rules (Barty Crouch in Snape's office, Harry before he descends through the one-eyed witch), people who are close and/or a danger to the one reading the Map (Neville, Filch, Snape...), and the manufacturers (Peter). OTOH, I just remembered it also shows Dumbledore in his office in GoF when Harry looks at the Map after his visit to the Prefects' bathroom. Hm. Any suggestions as to that? Donna who hasn't thought her theory through thoroughly enough, it seems From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu May 29 09:17:17 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 05:17:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cho Chang isn't Japanese! Message-ID: <14f.1f875f37.2c072a1d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58872 In a message dated 5/29/2003 3:40:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, L.Kelly at uq.net.au writes: > Personally I think her name makes her most likely Chinese, it doesn't > sound very Korean to me (though I must admit I know very little about > Korean, so maybe it is?) Her surname however sounds very Chinese. (I'm > assuming Chang is her surname because most Chinese and Japanese people > I've met here - Australia - give their name in western order when living > here According to what I've been able to discover online, Chang is one of the most common surnames in China. "Cho", however, is Japanese, meaning "butterfly". I'd always thought that Cho or her family had come originally from Hong Kong, which still belonged to Britain then. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Thu May 29 12:55:31 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:55:31 EDT Subject: Sympathy for Voldemort? Message-ID: <33.3948fa50.2c075d43@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58873 I don't hate Voldemort, I do, in fact, feel sorry for him. Let me explain why: As we all know, Tom Riddle Jr was born an orphan when his mother died at child birth. His father, abandoned him even before he was born learning that the Mother of his child was a witch. What happened to the rest of Tom Riddle's family is not yet known, and maybe never will be known, I doubt JK will go down that path, but either way, Tom was stuck at a Muggle Orphanage. What kind of child hood he had is also unknown, there is no canon saying that he was abused, bullied by other kids or anything of the sort, but what we do know is that he didn't like it as said when memory Tom Riddle was talking to Dippet. We can all assume that he wasn't loved. Orphanages offer you shelter, not an upbringing or nurturement (this information is been given to me at personal experience). Espeically back in the 1930's when discipline was harsh. I know what you must be thinking: Harry wasn't exactly nurtured either. But then if you look at the nurture Vs. nature argument you will see that Harry's nature obviously takes after his parents who were good and just as said by just about every wizard that knew them in all four books. Tom's parents consisted of a Slytherin Heir and an arrogant Muggle man (GoF the villagers comment on the Riddle's behaviour and how the Son, Tom Riddle Snr is even worse than the parents). And so Tom gets a letter from Hogwarts, how the orphanage came to accept this is a different story - and how he learned of his heritage and how he found the chamber: is a different story. But what IS with this story is that Tom did find the chamber, that he did turn evil at some point (or IMO as you will learn soon, psychotic). Tom opened the chamber, he framed Hagrid, everyone believed him except DUMBLEDORE. Now, Dumbledore knew he was, knew what he had done, but what did he do about it? Nothing. This is where I believe that Dumbledore is not perfect. He has prejudice in him to have such lack of faith in Tom that Dumbledore didn't bother to help him. Because thats what I believe Tom needed and still needs: help. Harry is Dumbledore's little Gem, but not Riddle. Dumbledore could of taken him under his wing, taught him right from wrong, done what the people at the orphanage didn't do. Even if Dumbledore didn't believe that he could be helped (which is evident that he didn't) he still didn't tell anybody else? And the fact that he let Hagrid get the blame is ridiculous: Isn't it obvious that Hagrid's Spider wasn't the monster: the effects of an Acromantula does not involve petrification or instant death. You can tell by observing Mrytle's dead body that it wasn't an Acromnatula at work there. Tom was known as an honest, handsome, hard-working boy and Dumbledore said in CoS that he was very convincing and that he could twist people to meet his needs. So Tom was well loved at school, but was it really Tom or was it his charade? Tom has never had anyone truely care about him, not then, not now. Yet he feels love. He loves his Mother. His own behaviour is the resentment he has towards his Father for abandoning his Mother. It's from that that he is driven to do the things he does towards muggles. His pain, which no one helped heal has driven him into his extreme behaviour. To murder Voldemort, or to arrest Voldemort would be discrimination since he is psychotic, would a sane person kill hundreds of people? Aren't killers there days that kill and kill known to be insane? Whats so different about Voldemort? Tom was doomed from the day he was born, his 'choices' as Dumbledore says are not really his choices? He 'chose' to be Voldemort's heir? I don't see how he chose to be in Slytherin, since he was as clueless as Harry when he entered Hogwarts, he didn't know which house was which? His extreme pain prevented him from turning the other cheek towards what his Father done, he was never given relief from it. He hasn't got a heart? I think he does for his Mother. Don't get me wrong, I dont think that his past gives him the right to do what he has done, but its a jail or instant death that he should be given? I think he should go to the nut house. He doesn't deserve to die for he hasnt yet been given the chance to live. I think there are a lot of holes in this opinion so feel free to disagree, Im curious to how everyone else feels towards Voldemort. Oh, and sorry I didnt have the books at hand to do quotes. Loadsa love Nic x x x P.S. Why does Voldemort spend his life trying to find longer life when he isn't living a life? P.P.S. Dementor's kiss just too harsh? (Think that Sirius was going to get it when he was innocent). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Thu May 29 14:17:26 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:17:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cho Chang isn't Japanese! References: <14f.1f875f37.2c072a1d@aol.com> Message-ID: <017501c325ed$08c968c0$224053d1@SaalsD> No: HPFGUIDX 58874 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com According to what I've been able to discover online, Chang is one of the most common surnames in China. "Cho", however, is Japanese, meaning "butterfly". I'd always thought that Cho or her family had come originally from Hong Kong, which still belonged to Britain then. Grace: Cho isn't a Japanese word but rather one of those words that is Chinese and has been taken into the Japanese language. There are a number of words in Japanese that are the same in other languages. For example: "pan" is the word for bread in both Japanese and Spanish. Look at all the names in English that are not English at all. From bard7696 at aol.com Thu May 29 14:06:35 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:06:35 -0000 Subject: Sympathy for Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <33.3948fa50.2c075d43@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58875 Carealotclouds: > > I don't hate Voldemort, I do, in fact, feel sorry for him. Let me explain > why: > > As we all know, Tom Riddle Jr was born an orphan when his mother died at child birth. His father, abandoned him even before he was born learning that the Mother of his child was a witch. What happened to the rest of Tom Riddle's family is not yet known, and maybe never will be known, I doubt JK will go down > that path, but either way, Tom was stuck at a Muggle Orphanage. Riddle KILLED the rest of his family, on his dad's side. That's what happened to them, in case you were wondering. > What kind of child hood he had is also unknown, there is no canon saying that he was abused, bullied by other kids or anything of the sort, but what we do know is that he didn't like it as said when memory Tom Riddle was talking to Dippet. We can all assume that he wasn't loved. Orphanages offer you shelter, not an upbringing or nurturement (this information is been given to me at personal experience). Espeically back in the 1930's when discipline was harsh. I know what you must be thinking: Harry wasn't exactly nurtured either. But then if> you look at the nurture Vs. nature argument you will see that Harry's nature obviously takes after his parents who were good and just as said by just about > every wizard that knew them in all four books. Tom's parents consisted of a Slytherin Heir and an arrogant Muggle man (GoF thevillagers comment on the Riddle's behaviour and how the Son, Tom Riddle Snr is even worse than the > parents). Wait a minute. Harry is a good kid because he came from good stock (nature), but Tom is a bad kid because he had a bad childhood? (nurture) That's a contradiction. If you use Tom's childhood as an excuse, you have to factor in that Harry overcame his childhood. And heh, you're actually coming close to my "all Slyths are bad" routine by commenting that the Heir of Slytherin would have no choice but to be a bad guy. As an aside, I'd like to stack being locked in a cupboard, starved at a whim, beaten by Dudley (and its insinuated, Vernon) and forced to be a slave over life in that orphanage and see which is really worse. We have no record of what happened in the orphanage, whether it was Dickensian or a place where hard-working nuns did their best. All we know is that Tom didn't like it. We DO know what Harry went through, and he chose to be a good kid. He didn't even know who his parents were. For all he knew, Aunt Marge's stories about them being layabouts and morons could have been true. > And so Tom gets a letter from Hogwarts, how the orphanage came to accept this is a different story - and how he learned of his heritage and how he found the chamber: is a different story. But what IS with this story is that Tom did find the chamber, that he did turn evil at some point (or IMO as you will learn soon, psychotic). Tom opened the chamber, he framed Hagrid, everyone> believed him except DUMBLEDORE. Now, Dumbledore knew he was, knew what he had done, but what did he do about it? Nothing. This is where I believe that Dumbledore is not perfect. He has prejudice in him to have such lack of faith in Tom that Dumbledore didn't bother to help him. Canon tells us that Riddle eventually became Head Boy. We don't know that Dumbledore knew for sure that Riddle opened the chamber, or at least, had enough evidence to convince the Headmaster that bright, popular, future Head Boy Tom Riddle did it. All Dumbledore was able to do was stave off severe punishment for Hagrid. And what was Dumbledore to do? Riddle was directly responsible for the death of a student and the framing of another student. The only place he should have "helped" him is to a window cell in Azkaban. >Because thats what I believe Tom needed and still needs: help. Harry is Dumbledore's little Gem, but not Riddle. Dumbledore could of taken him under his wing, taught him right from wrong, > done what the people at the orphanage didn't do. Even if Dumbledore didn't believe that he could be helped (which is evident that he didn't) he still didn't tell anybody else? And the fact that he let Hagrid get the blame is ridiculous: Isn't it obvious that Hagrid's Spider wasn't the monster: the effects of > an Acromantula does not involve petrification or instant death. You can tell by observing Mrytle's dead body that it wasn't an Acromnatula at work there. Dumbledore DIDN'T let Hagrid take the blame. He convinced the Headmaster to let Hagrid go. But again, we're talking about a popular kid who could well have been Dippet's gem. (Remember, Dippet was the head master, not Dumbledore) Dumbledore was the one who kept an eye on Riddle the rest of the time, preventing Riddle from opening the chamber again -- pg. 230. > Tom was known as an honest, handsome, hard-working boy and Dumbledore said in > CoS that he was very convincing and that he could twist people to meet his needs. So Tom was well loved at school, but was it really Tom or was it his > charade? Tom has never had anyone truely care about him, not then, not now. Yet he feels love. He loves his Mother. His own behaviour is the resentment he has towards his Father for abandoning his Mother. It's from that that he is > driven to do the things he does towards muggles. His pain, which no one helped heal has driven him into his extreme behaviour. To murder Voldemort, or to arrest Voldemort would be discrimination since he is psychotic, would a sane person kill hundreds of people? Aren't killers there days that kill and kill known to be insane? Whats so different about Voldemort? > Hogwarts reached out to him. He had a home at Hogwarts, even among the Slytherin crowd. He made Head Boy. He was popular. He was well- liked, with every teacher except D-Dore. AND HE STILL chose to create a cult of followers and made them call him "Lord Voldemort." He started searching for that Chamber from the moment he got to Hogwarts. It took him five years and he found it in his fifth year. You are expecting Dumbledore to be the one caregiver that could have saved Riddle when it is obvious that Riddle was receiving kindness and guidance from most of the rest of the faculty. > Tom was doomed from the day he was born, his 'choices' as Dumbledore says are not really his choices? He 'chose' to be Voldemort's heir? I don't see how he chose to be in Slytherin, since he was as clueless as Harry when he entered Hogwarts, he didn't know which house was which? His extreme pain prevented him from turning the other cheek towards what his Father done, he was never given relief from it. He hasn't got a heart? I think he does for his Mother. Harry chose to overcome it. Ron has chosen to overcome being overlooked. Hermione has chosen to overcome being a Muggle-born in a world that is prejudiced against them. Most people can deal with life without becoming a genocidal maniac. (Hee! My favorite phrase! And it fits with V-Mort, even if it doesn't with Salazar) > I think there are a lot of holes in this opinion so feel free to disagree, Im curious to how everyone else feels towards Voldemort. I think he is the worst kind of racist filth and no amount of "wah, I had a bad childhood" justifies that and I further hope that Harry, Ron and Hermione take turns killing him a little bit at a time at the end of book 7. THEN, I hope the dementor makes a Slurpee out of his soul and 50 unicorns get to gore the hell out of him for him drinking their blood in PS/SS. Darrin --- Slurpee Souls. Man, that's a damn good band name. From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 29 14:38:30 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:38:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) Message-ID: <20030529.094333.-483569.0.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58876 On Thu, 29 May 2003 04:38:10 -0000 "pickle_jimmy" writes: > Now *my* question: > > In the word's of Dumbledore "You see, only one who wanted to find > the Stone -- find it, but not use it -- would be able to get it" > > If this is the case, why couldn't Quirrell get the stone? He didn't > want to use it, that was Voldemort. He may have wanted to get it for > Voldemort, but didn't harry want to get it for Dumbledore? Actually, no, I don't believe Harry wanted to get it for Dumbledore. Harry knew that Dumbledore was responsible for setting all the guards around the stone, why would DD need to get it back? No, Harry wanted to find the store purely for the purpose of Voldemort NOT getting it. As for Quirell/Voldemort, I think it depends on who was really in control of Quirell's thoughts, but either one of them would have wanted to use it. If Voldie was in control, then obviously he wanted to use it for himself. But even if Quirell was in control, he still wanted to *use* it for his master, use it to get Voldie off his head, possibly use it hoping for some side benefit for himself. (Perhaps Quirell would have to be the one to ingest the elixir, in which case he would receive the same benefit, or maybe it was merely the hope of reward from Voldie for getting the job done.) In any case, DD didn't say "use it for himself", he just said "use it". Harry had no interest in using the stone, but Quirrell and Voldemort did. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Thu May 29 14:42:38 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:42:38 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some Lupin questions Message-ID: <20030529.094333.-483569.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58877 On Thu, 29 May 2003 05:58:58 -0000 "greatlit2003" writes: > I was bothered by Black and Lupin's incredibly Muggle way of > transporting Pettigrew at the end of PoA. Why didn't they do to him > what Hermione did to Rita Skeeter at the end of GoF? Do wizards not > rationalize, or should their behavior be attributed to the trauma of > the evening? Well, Hermoine caught Rita while Rita was transfigured. Peter, OTOH, was already human, and I don't know that there is any way to force an animagic transfiguration, other than threatening to kill the person if they won't do it, and Harry had already said no to that. Also, trying to handle a rat would be much trickier than trying to hold on to a little beetle. However, Eledhwen is right - why didn't they just Stun the stupid man and be done with it? They did pick a rather silly way to handle it, knowing that he can transfigure if he has half a second of distraction working in his favor. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu May 29 14:27:30 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:27:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY: OOP, Reverse FITD, and other theories (or Serena goes on vacation) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58878 Please excuse me, but this my first venture into TBAY. So if I step on anyones toes, my deepest apologies. ********************* It's a warm May day in the TBAY. The waters seem relatively calm as most of the ships have docked in anticipation of book V. The sun is shining and it's unusually warm for May. Floating in the TBAY is a solitary figure in a RASPBERRY life preserver. Her name is Serena and she is new to the TBAY. She is wearing a beat-up pink swimsuit, which she has mended by covering the holes with gaudy gold bows. Her long brown hair is pulled up into two meat-ball style buns. Next to her floats a basket containing copies of cannon, a notebook, some mechanical pencils, and a couple of cases of Stewarts Root Beer. Serena splashes the water with her toes a bit as she finishes off a bottle of root beer. She then grabs her notebook and a pencil a writes: "The reason Harry is upset about Ron being Keeper on the Gryffindor team is that Harry gets kicked off the team and now is jealous of Ron" Serena promptly rips the page out of the book, roles it up, and stuffs it in the empty root beer bottle. She then procedes to chuck the bottle into the bay. She grabs another root beer and starts drinking. As she drinks, she picks up her copy of Goblet of Fire and starts reading. When she finishes her root beer, she pulls out the notebook and writes: "Evil! Hermione! Everyone else get accused of being evil, why not Hermione? Maybe she's actually a spy for Voldermort. No one would every suspect her!" Once again she stuffs the note in the bottle and lobs the bottle into the crystal blue waters of the bay. Serena continues in this manner for awhile, littering the bay with all sorts of theories some good, some bad, some downright silly. As she floats along, enjoying the Triwizard Tournament for the 300th time, a ship pulls along beside her. "Are you responsible for THIS!" a voice yells at her from the ship. Serena looks up. A large crowd is on the deck of this ship and they all look very angry. The one who yelled at her tosses a piece of paper in her direction. It reads: "Harry and Hermione are destined to be together. Their names both start with the letter H." Serena looks back up and realizes that this is the R/H ship. "So, what if I did?" she replies calmly. "Well, you can't do this! Not if you're going to stay in your RASPBERRY lifepreserver. You've obviously chosen a ship so you better go get on it." "I have not chosen any ship, haven't you figured out why I drink Stewarts: Serena Theorizing Everything Will Always Rate Trouble Soon." The crew of the R/H ship stare at her confused. Serena sighs, "I like coming up with theories, sometimes controvesial theories. But instead of hanging around to defend them I toss them out for others to debate, usually fiercely, and just watch the carnage." "So you purposely wrote this just to make us mad?" "Not to make you mad, but to make you think. It's always good to challenge what you believe." "Ok, then. So do you have any R/H theories?" "No," Serena replies calmly. "Aha!" they shout, "We knew you were actually a H/H shipper! Prepare to walk the plank!" "First of all," Serena replies, "I'm already in the water so walking the plank is pointless. Secondly, I'm not a H/H shipper. Thirdly, I don't have any R/H theories because they don't exist. R/H is practically cannon, it probably will be after book V." The R/H shippers ponder this for a moment. Many of them look a little disappointed. Serena rolls her eyes. She grabs her notebook and scribbles something down. She proceeds to cram it into an empty bottle and toss it on the deck of the ship. They crowd around the bottle and pull out the note. It reads: "Reverse FITD. Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Ron. Harry likes Hermione. Ron and Hermione get together, and Harry feels like a third wheel, alienating him from the trio. Because of this, Harry is weak and can't defeat Voldemort unitl he reconciles with them." The R/H shippers give Serena a strange look. "Well, what did you expect. The book is HARRY POTTER and the whatever, so most theories are going to revolve around him in some way." The ship departs quietly, and Serena returns to her books and root beer. She writes: "Snape is a red herring. He is not an Important! character. He's not going to save Harry or defeat Voldemort. His only purpose is to make sure that Harry does not have an easy time doing anything. He exists to gum up the works. He is not some saintly anti-hero." She stuffs the note into an empty bottle and tosses it into the bay. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 29 14:47:48 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:47:48 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left Hogwarts? Lupin would have been in a better position than Sirius to advise Harry when he was entered into the Triwizard Tournament. Does Lupin's strange behavior bother anyone else?<< Well, it definitely bothers me! One possible explanation is that Lupin, like Tom Riddle, is kind and sympathetic only when it suits his purpose. Look at the way he treats the Boggart, using it in class and then blasting it to pieces. And what ever happened to that Grindylow? Why the detail of the empty cage? > > I was bothered by Black and Lupin's incredibly Muggle way of > transporting Pettigrew at the end of PoA. Why didn't they do to him what Hermione did to Rita Skeeter at the end of GoF? << Rita could have broken out of an ordinary jar just by transforming back into human shape. We don't know how long it took Hermione to put the Unbreakable Charm on Rita's jar, but considering that things like windows do get broken in the WW , it must be a fairly involved process. Hermione already had figured out about Rita, so she could have had the jar prepared. As for chaining Pettigrew, accused criminals are customarily chained in the WW, as the Pensieve trials showed. Stunning would probably have seemed excessive once Peter had surrendered. What would we think if the police stunned a prisoner after he had already been handcuffed and subdued? Sirius probably wasn't thinking too clearly, or he would have realized that it was a full moon and Lupin would become dangerous. And Lupin...well, if he *wanted* Peter to escape, his actions make perfect sense. Pippin From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu May 29 15:51:59 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:51:59 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58880 All this discussion of the Mirror and Harry's possible recklessness have got me wondering about the following idea, no doubt discussed sometime here before. So I'll keep it short. While DD might have preferred to keep the Stone hidden, he tried to ensure that its removal, if it happened, would lead to physical contact between Harry and whoever Voldemort was piggybacking on, thereby leading to Voldemort's (temporary) weakening. Perhaps DD did not know that Quirrell was Voldemort's carrier, but he might have guessed that Voldemort was glomming on to *someone* who might try to steal the Stone. Ersatz Harry, wondering how Fleur's desire to return and Hermione's possible visit to Viktor will play out in OoP From innermurk at catlover.com Thu May 29 15:43:03 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:43:03 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "guardianapcelt" wrote: >Lockhart is seriously underestimated. The man may be a horrible > wizard, but he managed to trick multiple powerful wizards and witches > into telling him their stories. His problem is that he has become so > full of himself that he actually thinks he can pull off the deeds he > recorded in his works. But would he be dense enough to mention a > nonexistant curse in front of Dumbledore as the source for a fairly > substantial issue with Filtch's apparently dead cat? His employer, > the man acknowledged as the most powerful sorceror in the world? > That's a little too blatant an act of stupidity, even for him. Like > as not he'd heard about the curse, knew the symptoms from second hand > information, and was trying to impress everyone with his knowledge. I innermurk would like to add: I've always thought that this is one reason DD hired Lockhart. Yes, he was a braggart, and yes he played himself up a lot, but the methods and the deeds were TRUE. Just not originally or actually done by Lockhart. Even if DD knew before he came to the school that he was a totally incompetant wizard, and a fraud, he still had the knowledge of how those things and spells were preformed. People assume that no one learned anything in Lockhart's class all year. We know that the trio don't think they did, except not to set pixies loose in a room. BUT the theories were there, and they have the texts to help them if they just put forth a little effort. Harry was enacting all those scenes with Lockhart all the time, maybe something stuck with him subconciously. If I'm honest with myself, I think Lockhart's class would've been an entertaining one to be in. More than Quirrell's anyway. We know that Lupin and Moody used practical lessons, but we haven't heard about Quirrell having any practical ones. Lockhart's one disatrous one led to his particular style of (proabably inneffective) teaching. If you weren't Harry forced to help re-inact everything, it would really be like watching a play every day. It's not totally inconceivable that someone learned something from these. Innermurk (realizing this is the second post which sounds as if I'm defending Lockhart, but I'm really trying to defend DD) From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Thu May 29 13:31:31 2003 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (viewsonpotter) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:31:31 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left Hogwarts? > Lupin would have been in a better position than Sirius to advise > Harry when he was entered into the Triwizard Tournament. Does > Lupin's strange behavior bother anyone else? Hi I was really looking forward to seeing Lupin in GoF and yes, i thought he would stay in touch with Harry. But think about it, throughout PoA Lupin keeps his relationship with Harry on an impersonal student-professor level. A very kind, understanding teacher, but still just a teacher. He spends a lot of time with Harry, teaching him the Patronus, but never lets the conversation take a personal turn. This could be because he doesnt want to start a conversation that could lead to him revealing things he'd rather not talk about (Sirus Black, unregistered animagi, etc). But once all the secrets are out he could have stayed in touch and developed a closer relationship. I think it is basically because he is very reserved (mainly because of his werewolf status) and waits for the the other person to make a friendly overture. Since Harry is also pretty reserved (he doesnt readily run to people for help does he?) the relationship stays on a formal footing. And its not like Harry is friendless. Lupin knows that Dumbledore is there for him, and so is Sirus (albeit long distance). If he felt Harry needed him he would have contacted him. cheers Shaggy (who also loves Lupin and cant wait to see him again) From tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com Thu May 29 15:52:37 2003 From: tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com (tiger_queen429) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:52:37 -0000 Subject: Heirs and Decendants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58883 Before I start, I have a question: why does all competion in Hogwarts seem to center around Slytherin and Gryffindor? Every year it seems that the Quidditch game between Gryffindor and Slytherin is the most important. In POA, for example, though winning against Ravenclaw is important for Gryffindor; they still have a friendly game. Fights occur between Gryffindor and Slytherin before their match starts. Hufflepuff also does not seem as important when in GoF Harry is amazed the Cedric is willing to walk away from the 'sort of glory Hufflepuff hadn't had in centuries.' Can we then assume that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are not as highly valued houses in Hogwarts as Slytherin and Gryffindor? I believe that Tom Riddle is indeed SS's heir and descendant. He was the one who opened Slytherin's legacy at Hogwarts. I see SS as a person judged others by their bloodlines. So in order for someone to be worthy of being Slytherin's heir, they must come from a bloodline of which SS would approve- his own. GG, on the other had did not have such strong ties to bloodlines as seen by his willingness to teach Muggle-born wichtes and wizards. So any 'heir' of GG would not need to belong to the Gryffindor's own bloodline, but have the traits and qualities that GG also had. Harry, it seems has all of the qualities that GG valued: he proves his bravery when he stands up to Voldemort; his daring when he chooses not to worry about Sirius during POA; his nevre when even though he may be nervous before the first task in GoF that he does not run away from it; and his chivary when he willing risks his life to rescue Ginny from the Chamber of Secrets. In this way I think that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. We do not know if he is the descendant of GG, but wether he is, or not, there is some importance to Harry's bloodline. Sirius in the end of POA calls Harry 'the last Potter' (pg 371) which suggests that there is some importance to that family line if Voldemort wants him so badly. For all we know, Harry could be the last descendant of GG as well as his heir. Perhaps, the heirs and descendants of the two 'greatest' houseses are destined to fight each other. Tigerqueen429 From christianrooster at hotmail.com Thu May 29 16:28:36 2003 From: christianrooster at hotmail.com (Mark) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:28:36 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "donna_immaculata" wrote: >...Therefore, I believe it is indeed selective. It probably only shows people who are currently breaking rules ... > > OTOH, I just remembered it also shows Dumbledore in his office in > GoF when Harry looks at the Map after his visit to the Prefects' > bathroom. Hm. Any suggestions as to that? Perhaps Dumbeldore was breaking some rule(s)? Hmmmm. Or perhaps in the words of the marauder's map: "Up to no Good", just like Harry. Mark From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Thu May 29 17:02:02 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:02:02 -0000 Subject: Unforgivables (was: Re: WW Ethics...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58885 Annemehr wrote: An excellent summary of the evidence and its vagueness, and: > Still, I think that after Hagrid was expelled, he was sent to the > prison, at least at first, and Dumbledore helped get him out (it would > certainly go far to help explain Hagrid's devotion to him). And I > think that getting expelled from Hogwarts is quite a terrible > punishment, I just don't think it was Hagrid's only punishment. Actually, I see your point, and this all makes sense to me. I (personally) do also think that it's equally plausible that expulsion was the only punishment given, on the grounds that even Riddle (if I'm remembering correctly) implied when he was talking to Hagrid in the memory scene that he knew Hagrid hadn't meant any harm, and almost seemed to act as if he thought this assurance would get him to cooperate more readily. It's possible (though by no means certain, given some of what else the WW considers suitable) that Azkaban might have been considered too harsh for a third-year (13-14 years old, presumably) considered guilty of manslaughter/negligence rather than intentional murder. PK From lmbolland at earthlink.net Thu May 29 12:51:02 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (eric_and_lauri) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:51:02 -0000 Subject: truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > However, JK did say she was introducing the first truly evil female > character in GOF does anyone know where I can find that quote? http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml Scroll down to the bottom of the article - in the blue-colored area. I can't help but think they mean Rita Skeeter. Lauri From tammy at mauswerks.net Thu May 29 17:24:14 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:24:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: <20030529022411.55954.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1054168033.5172.21721.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3ED609FE.25745.3D3CD62@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 58887 On 28 May 2003 at 19:24, freddie mac wrote: > I think it is fairly well established that wizards cannot > make something out of nothing. For example, a book can be > made out of a a glass, but not out of empty air. Here > then, is my question: I (tammy) reply: Actually, wizards frequently make something out of nothing -- whenever they conjure anything, it comes from nothing. Sadly, it also returns to nothing when they're finished with it. Conjuring is, by nature, impermanent. But back to transfiguring . . . . freddie mac continues: > While wizards can change the shape of something (glass to > book), can they change the *essence* of something from the > original object to the new object? This is a bit clearer > (or more convoluted, depending on your perspective) if you > consider living things. > > A ferret (*grin*) can be changed into a human-shaped > ferret, but can the essence of a ferret be changed into the > essence of a human? I (tammy) chime in again: Well, I don't remember WHERE it says this, though I think it was in QTTA, but my understanding is that, if a wizard transfigures himself into, say, a bat, so he could fly somewhere (NOTE: I'm not talking about Animagus transformations here), he'd be kinda stuck as a bat, not having proper hands with which to wield a wand, living a bat's life in a bat's body until his mind forgot he'd ever been a wizard. I feel that the essence you're talking about, at least when it's a human being transfigured, retains its original 'form', if you will, for some time, before molding itself to fit the new form. Viktor Krum managed a poor transfiguration (or transformation?) of himself, giving himself a shark's head (and gills?), but he retained his wizard's mind for the duration. freddie mac goes on: > When I think about transfiguration, I have a sense that the > outer form is changed, but not necessarily the > inner/intrinsic aspects. If you change a ferret into a > human-shaped ferret, does the ferret gain human senses, > reasoning, soul (for lack of a better term), or is the > ferret simply reshaped into a human-like shape? And I (tammy) reason thusly: As for your example of a ferret gaining the essence of a human if forced into a human shape . . . well, I imagine that, if a ferret were human-shaped for long enough, and lived in human society for long enough, and the transfiguration/transformation was thorough enough (giving the ferret a human brain to house its ferret mind), the creature would quite likely develop some sense of self- awareness over and above what other ferrets would have, and would learn how to avoid gross suspicion about its actual origins and fit in better, though it would probably never BE fully human. That is simply my opinion, shaped by decades of reading SF/F, and it may not be how JKR's WW works, but I see it as a good theory. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From tammy at mauswerks.net Thu May 29 17:31:34 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:31:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED60BB6.27055.3DA84EE@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 58888 On 29 May 2003 at 16:28, Mark wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "donna_immaculata" > wrote: > >...Therefore, I believe it is indeed selective. It probably only > shows people who are currently breaking rules ... > > > > OTOH, I just remembered it also shows Dumbledore in his office in > > GoF when Harry looks at the Map after his visit to the Prefects' > > bathroom. Hm. Any suggestions as to that? > > Perhaps Dumbeldore was breaking some rule(s)? Hmmmm. Or perhaps in > the words of the marauder's map: "Up to no Good", just like Harry. > > Mark Now, that makes sense. I mean, we've NEVER heard of Dumbledore doing anything like bending rules, have we? (*gigglesnort*) The map is obviously smarter than Harry has yet realized. It does seem to show those who are up to no good, both in shared cause with the map-holder or against the map- holder (ie, those who would help the map-holder's mischief and those who would hinder it), while those who would not have much impact either way seem to be inconsequential to the map, and therefore are not shown. I suspect that anyone who was within discovery range of the map-holder's entrance/exit from the tunnels would show up, though, regardless of their motives in being there. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu May 29 18:13:19 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:13:19 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: <3ED609FE.25745.3D3CD62@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58889 Freddie Mac wrote: > > While wizards can change the shape of something (glass to > > book), can they change the *essence* of something from the > > original object to the new object? This is a bit clearer > > (or more convoluted, depending on your perspective) if you > > consider living things. > > > > A ferret (*grin*) can be changed into a human-shaped > > ferret, but can the essence of a ferret be changed into the > > essence of a human? > And Tammy replied: > Well, I don't remember WHERE it says this, though I think it was in QTTA, but my > understanding is that, if a wizard transfigures himself into, say, a bat, so he could fly > somewhere (NOTE: I'm not talking about Animagus transformations here), he'd be > kinda stuck as a bat, not having proper hands with which to wield a wand, living a > bat's life in a bat's body until his mind forgot he'd ever been a wizard. I feel that the > essence you're talking about, at least when it's a human being transfigured, retains > its original 'form', if you will, for some time, before molding itself to fit the new form. Actually, the exact quote is: "The witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight." (QTTA, pg 1). So it's not the physical limitations but rather the mental limitations that prevent the wizard from traveling or retransfiguring. This seems to be proof that a person tranfigured into an animal does indeed lose his or her higher-thinking abilities. This makes sense, being that an animal's brain (in this case, a bat) is limited. In a more physical sense, suppose that a human's brain equals a one gallon container, while the bat's brain is only a few ounces. If the one gallon container were suddenly replaced with the smaller one, some thoughts and abilities would have to be lost due to overflow. However, I'm not sure whether the reverse would hold true. A ferret tranfigured into a person would now have the machinery necessary for higher thinking. If a small container suddenly expanded, there would be no need to lose thoughts as in the previous case. Instead, you would get a big container with only a few thoughts and abilities and a lot of empty space. My theory is that the same thing occurrs during transfiguration: The ferret-person now has a human-sized brain, but only a ferret's worth of thoughts, with most of the brain inactive. Perhaps with instruction, the ferret could eventually learn, but this seems doubtful being that Mr. Ferret is lacking many of the mental qualities a person is born with. So, overall, I think the "essence" arguement depends on whether a tranformation is from low to high complexity or from high to low. Low to high would yield the same "esseance" as before, while high to low would result in a loss of any no-longer-supported qualities. None of this is supported by canon though, so take it with a grain of salt. -Corinth From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu May 29 17:59:42 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:59:42 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" > wrote: > > Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left > Hogwarts? Lupin would have been in a better position than > Sirius to advise Harry when he was entered into the Triwizard > Tournament. Does Lupin's strange behavior bother anyone > else?<< > > Well, it definitely bothers me! One possible explanation is that > Lupin, like Tom Riddle, is kind and sympathetic only when it > suits his purpose. Look at the way he treats the > Boggart, using it in class and then blasting it to pieces. And what > ever happened to that Grindylow? Why the detail of the empty > cage? How do you know Boggarts aren't like wasps -- when they get inside, you kill them! And the Grindylow? Back into the lake, of course -- and Harry stunned it during the second task of the TWT! Annemehr with no sympathy for wasps From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu May 29 18:10:56 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:10:56 -0000 Subject: TBAY/SHIP: SHIP-Speak (WAS Re: TBAY: OOP, Reverse FITD, and other theories ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58891 "**MAN OVERBOARD**!!!" Derannimer leaned dangerously over the railing of the Big Bang for a closer look. "I can't see who it is, but -?" she raised her omnioculars and squinted into the smudged lenses, "but I see a weird combination of pink, raspberry and *gold!* Oh, *yuck!* It has to be *Mary Suzanne!*" "Give me those things!" Cindy snatched the omnioculars and peered in the direction of the small figure bobbing in the water. "Toss that sailor a line and pull her in, Derannimer." "Uh, we seem to be a bit *low* on basic supplies like rope, Captain," Derannimer said in a tight voice. "It seems *someone* has made off with the few remaining Galleons we needed for *necessities* and has been using them to get sloshed in George's Tav ?-" "Fine! I'll handle it myself!" Cindy leaned over the railing and extended her Big paddle toward the sailor in the life preserver and hauled her onto the deck. "Name, rank and serial number, sailor!" Cindy demanded. The sailor gulped the last swig of her bottle of rootbeer and tossed it lazily onto the deck at Cindy's feet. "I'm Serena, and I'm new around these parts. I like coming up with theories, sometimes controvesial theories. But instead of hanging around to defend them I toss them out for others to debate, usually fiercely, and just watch the carnage." "Really?" Cindy said, intrigued. "Well, this could get interesting. Go on." Serena nodded vigorously, her eyes flicking from side to side as she took in her surroundings and the pinched faces of the Big Bang crew gathered around her. "Yup, I got a million of 'em. For instance, the reason Harry is upset about Ron being Keeper on the Gryffindor team is that Harry gets kicked off the team and now is jealous of Ron." "Hmmmm," Cindy said, interested. "I dunno. That might be a bit of a stretch. To the extent Ron has ever been successful at something in Harry's presence, I don't recall Harry every showing signs of jealousy. Like during the chess match in PS/SS. I think it is more likely that Ron is the Keeper and Ron isn't as good as Oliver Wood, and Harry is irritated at Ron for that reason. That would create a lot of tension, don't you think?" Cindy began pacing back and forth across the deck, deep in thought. "And besides, the books often show Ron being less than competent at various bits of magic, so having Ron be worse at Quidditch would fit that pattern. Ron can't throw off the Imperius Curse, for instance. Ron can't turn Scabbers yellow. Ron can't banish his cushion." Cindy stopped abruptly, her hands on her hips. "What else do you have?" she challenged. Serena paused, a look of intense concentration on her face. "Murp kurda se ick ick slurk," she said in a clear, distinct voice. "Mugfin alost a me FITD." "What the-?" A breathless Derannimer pushed her way forward from the watching crowd, her face flush with excitement. "Captain, as the director of the Big Bang Shipping Wing, perhaps I can help. I'm fluent in SHIP- speak." "You're fluent in *what?*" "I know SHIP-speak," Derannimer repeated. "Shippers speak a totally different language, Captain. They are not like our kind. We can co- exist in peace and harmony here in the Bay, each seeking shelter under our very own prefix, if we each respect the strange and peculiar ways of the other. It was not always that way -? back in the Great Shipping Wars long ago, many battles were fought and the casualties for both sides were very high. But modern theorists understand the value of diversity of canon approach -- of mutual understanding and respect -- and it is now possible for theorists to SHIP as well as FILK or TBAY, sometimes in the very same post!" She took a halting step toward Serena. "I think I understood what Serena here just said. I believe it was 'Reverse FITD. Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Ron. Harry likes Hermione. Ron and Hermione get together, and Harry feels like a third wheel, alienating him from the trio. Because of this, Harry is weak and can't defeat Voldemort until he reconciles with them.'" Derannimer beamed with satisfaction at her own cleverness. "Uh huh," Cindy said blankly. "And, uh . . . what's our answer to that, Derannimer?" Derannimer paused, deep in thought, eyeing Serena closely. "Well, it's interesting. I'd like to give it more thought. But I can tell that it is not Classic FITD, at least, as we understand it in our world. In Classic FITD, the love is always -? *always* -? unrequited. Serena contemplates Ron and Hermione actually getting together. But it is certainly worth discussing. I may have to retire to the Shipping Ballroom for a bit of peace and quiet so I can analyze this theory." "Uh, you'll take Serena with you and, er, show her around the place," Cindy said hopefully. "Oh, absolutely!" Derannimer replied, tossing one arm around Serena's shoulders. "Serena here could use a dry uniform. Besides, her accent is perfect, and it's been a while since I had a chance to brush up on my SHIP-speak." She steered Serena gently in the direction of the Shipping Wing in the bowels of the destroyer. "I think we'll get along just fine," Derannimer said with a wink. **************** Cindy From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu May 29 19:13:56 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:13:56 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure (was: Re: Harry's Sacrifice. / Sorting and Character Traits) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drmm_fuuko" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > wrote:> Annemehr: > <<> A short while ago, there was a thread going on discussing > whether, for thematic reasons, Harry might need to *fail* at > something important, DrMM: > I'd be interested to read this thread (must have joined after it > finished) as I've always thought Harry needs to fail in a big way in > order for him to grow. Annemehr: It begins with a post by Melody: # 53675. ::waves to Mel:: It's in TBAY style, and the part about Harry needing to fail at something begins about 1/3 of the way down. There were quite a lot of replies and discussion - very interesting. DrMM: > > While others may disagree, I've always thought that Harry tends to be > careless, reckless and just a touch arrogant. Let me explain why. > Annemehr: I really just see his habit of not seeking adult help as a major consequence of the way he was raised by the Dursleys. This is not arrogance at all to me, but that's just my opinion. It's not an absolute with him, either. HRH tried to tell Professor McGonagall about someone being after the philosopher's stone, and were rebuffed. McGonagall wouldn't even listen to their very good reasons why they thought the stone was truly in danger. (I know you did bring this up, but I think it was a stronger point than you wrote it). Harry and Ron were on their way to the staffroom to tell what they had figured out about the Chamber of Secrets when the staff meeting about Ginny occurred. Here their common sense did desert them as they first merely went back to their common room, and then went for help to the one teacher they believed to be useless (even though they did think he was at least going to try to find Ginny). In PoA, he didn't try to do much of anything except sneak into Hogsmeade. This *is* arrogance on his part, I agree, but I think Lupin's words to him after he was caught made a lasting impression. When Padfoot dragged Ron into the Whomping Willow, I am not surprised he and Hermione didn't go for help -- they were afraid there wasn't time ("Harry, -- we've got to go for help --" Hermione gasped; she was bleeding too; the Willow had cut her across the shoulder. "No! That thing's big enough to eat him; we haven't got time--" from PoA, ch.17). Okay, better maybe if Harry went into the Willow and Hermione went for help, but I suppose they figured they'd need both of them against the dog. DrMM: > GoF: This is the book where I think Harry's *finally* starting to > think about things more. In fact, I can't think of one thing that > Harry does that he isn't forced to do because of his unwilling > participation in the Tournament (Well, he should have told Dumbledore > about his dreams.). Annemehr: Yes, I was glad to see him change a bit, too, because he's going to need to be open with Dumbledore during the coming war with Voldemort. It is true, he felt stupid writing Dumbledore about his *first* dream, but he did feel he ought to write *someone,* and told Sirius -- the first time he ever went to an adult with a *question,* I think (not counting the q's he has for Dumbledore at the ends of books, when they are dicsussing aftermaths). After the second dream he had during Divination, however, he did just what Sirius told him to do, and went straight to Dumbledore. DrMM: > > In all of these books, Harry has survived out of luck and with the > help of his friends. Annemehr: You left out, his own determination. DrMM: I admit that if Harry weren't the typical > storybook hero, these books would be very boring and short, so Harry > *needs* to do some of these things. I just think that, if JKR wants > to show a real growth in Harry, some of the things he does will have > to change. Sometimes a hero has to think ahead and not rush into > things. > > Until GoF, I think Harry was treating most of these things as a game. > They were adventures and he wasn't really thinking seriously about > the consequences. Annemehr: Amen to the first paragraph, but I'll quibble with the last two sentences (because of what I wrote above). DrMM: > > If Harry fails, I think it will cost the life of someone he cares > about. And for Harry to learn and grow the most, it should be his > own carelessness that causes it. I predict that the death most people > think will happen in OOtP will be caused because Harry does something > stupid -- and is caught because of it. Or at least in book 6. > > DrMM You're not alone. Personally, I think that if Harry had just outright lost a Quidditch match to a better seeker, we might not even be discussing this! ;-) Annemehr I think this was my 115th post! From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Thu May 29 19:28:21 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:28:21 -0000 Subject: 20 ghosts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58893 In SS p. 115 it says: "About twenty ghosts had just streamed through the back wall." Now, my question is, is it important for us to know who the other ghosts that we don't know yet are? In that scene they are talking about Peeves not being a proper ghost, therefore, we can assume that he is not amongst them (apart from the fact that he is a poltergeist who perhaps can't go through walls like ghosts, as he can throw around things and the fact that Harry probably wouldn't be able to discern between a ghost and a poltergeist at first) One of those ghosts is the Fat Friar (p. 116), we are later introduced to Nearly Headless Nick and the Bloody Baron and the Grey Lady. Although Harry doesn't mention it, I'd think that Binns was at the Head Table and not among the group but of course, I could be wrong. That makes 4-5 of the twenty so far. In book 2 we are introduced to Moaning Myrtle but she seldom leaves her toilet (except to spy on the guys in the Prefect's bathroom), so I doubt she's be among them. Even if she had been that means we're only up to 5-6. If we meat any other ghosts in the book, I can't remember but it can't be more than one or two. That leaves 12-15 ghosts floating around Hogwarts that we haven't heard anything about yet. Are they staying out of the students' way? Or where they just never mentioned because they weren't important for the plot? Or wheren't they mentioned because they will be important for the future plot but would have given too many hints if they had already been discussed? If they have no relevance for the plot, why where they mentioned at the beginning of SS? Any thoughts? Sabrina From amani at charter.net Thu May 29 19:40:17 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:40:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heir defined References: Message-ID: <004001c3261a$2245a2a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58894 adanaleigh: Who says TR is the descendent of Slytherin? Is it TR himself? If so, why would we believe him? As some have pointed out, how would he know anyway? My idea is that he considers himself the spiritual heir, as he has the same beliefs and ideas. He thinks no one else is the "true heir" because no one else has had the courage to wipe out all the Muggles. Me: Here's quotes for both points. First, Dumbledore also confirms that TR is the descendent of Slytherin. "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort--who IS the last remaining descendent of Salazar Slytherin--can speak Parseltongue..." [pg. 332-333, US Paperback, emphasis JKR's] And TR most definitely refers to a PHYSICAL descendence: "...You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name forever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side?..." [pg. 314, US Paperback] --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com Thu May 29 19:27:06 2003 From: honeycakehorse03 at hotmail.com (honeycakehorse03) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:27:06 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure (was: Re: Harry's Sacrifice. / Sorting and Character Traits) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58895 DrMM: "Sometimes a hero has to think ahead and not rush into things." Totally agree, I hope Harry will realise this in the fifth book. (I also think Ron badly needs to learn that because he always has a habit of baiting Harry into situations, Harry is unsure about.) "Until GoF, I think Harry was treating most of these things as a game. They were adventures and he wasn't really thinking seriously about the consequences." Agree again. I also think you can clearly see his higher maturity in the fact that he *doesn't* try to enter his name into the goblet. I think, Harry in first or second year would have done just that, at least after a bit of prodding by Ron. I think, he has matured more in that time than Ron who still thinks that Harry would have done that. "If Harry fails, I think it will cost the life of someone he cares about. And for Harry to learn and grow the most, it should be his own carelessness that causes it. I predict that the death most people think will happen in OOtP will be caused because Harry does something stupid -- and is caught because of it. Or at least in book 6." I'm going with the theory here that Harry feels guilty about Cedric's death which I think is quite obvious. In that case from Harry's PoV he has *already* failed and cost somebody his life. If that is the opinion of other people or not, isn't really the case. The way Harry feels about it is important. That could indicate that Harry will already be more careful in book 5, at least in the case of the possibility that his friends - or any innocent - could get hurt. Sabrina From innermurk at catlover.com Thu May 29 19:49:28 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:49:28 -0000 Subject: 20 ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58896 Sabrina wrote: > In SS p. 115 it says: "About twenty ghosts had just streamed > through the back wall." > > Now, my question is, is it important for us to know who the other > ghosts that we don't know yet are? > If we meat any other ghosts in the book, I can't remember but it > can't be more than one or two. That leaves 12-15 ghosts floating > around Hogwarts that we haven't heard anything about yet. Are > they staying out of the students' way? Or where they just never > mentioned because they weren't important for the plot? Or > wheren't they mentioned because they will be important for the > future plot but would have given too many hints if they had already > been discussed? If they have no relevance for the plot, why where > they mentioned at the beginning of SS? > > Any thoughts? > I innermurk would like to reply: I always thought the ghosts were having a party and "living it up" a little. (sorry for the pun) They seem surprised to see all the students there, so I don't think they realized it was the start of term. We met a lot of different ghosts at NHN's deathday party, though only one or two by name. The rest of the 20 could've just been guests and not resident ghosts at Hogwarts. Innermurk From amani at charter.net Thu May 29 19:51:18 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:51:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Riddle Knew He Was A Descendant of Slytherin (WAS: Heir defined) References: Message-ID: <007d01c3261b$ac46cf00$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58897 Innermurk Here's an idea, what if the Sorting Hat told him? Phyllis: I actually did consider that option, especially in light of JKR's statement that there's more to the Sorting Hat than meets the eye. However, what gave me pause was the fact that the Sorting Hat was once Godric Gryffindor's hat, and given the enmity between Gryffindor and Slytherin, I suspect the Hat would not have divulged Riddle's Slytherin ancestry to him (assuming the Hat knew about it in the first place, that is). Also, it's the Sorting Hat that Fawkes brings to Harry's aid in the Chamber when Harry is fighting against both Memory!Riddle and Slytherin's serpent, so I really see the Hat as being part of the fight against the evil Slythierin and Voldemort represent. Me: I'm among those who think that Salazar Slytherin was /not/ evil and that his ideals have been twisted HEAVILY by TR/VM. And, IMO at least, Godric Gryffindor sounds like the kind of person who would at least give someone that information and let them make a CHOICE on how to follow it. Being the Heir of Slytherin didn't even guarantee a person would take on ANY of Salazar's ideas. I think the idea the Sorting Hat told him is very interesting, indeed. --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Thu May 29 19:37:09 2003 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (loonyloopyrjl) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:37:09 -0000 Subject: Sympathy for Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <33.3948fa50.2c075d43@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58898 CareALotsClouds wrote: ... if you look at the nurture Vs. nature argument you will see that Harry's nature obviously takes after his parents who were good and just as said by just about every wizard that knew them in all four books. Loony Loopy (me) responds: I disagree with the assumption a child must inherit his parents' nature, especially if the child was separated so young. Although I believe that we will find out that the Potters were good people, that, too, is an assumption. Maybe one or both of them were bad but then turned good (e.g., Snape). I can think of two possible reasons why Dumbledore hasn't told Harry about his parents. Either they had some "superman" powers that Harry may have inherited but is not yet mature enough to deal with, or, they were terrible people. Imagine telling a child that his father was a mass murderer. I think that kind of information would generate an incredible amount of self-doubt and guilt in a child. In which case, Dumbledore would want Harry to grow up a bit and develop a sense of himself separate from The Boy Who Lived. ======================================== CareALotsClouds wrote: Tom opened the chamber, he framed Hagrid, everyone believed him except DUMBLEDORE. Now, Dumbledore knew he was, knew what he had done, but what did he do about it? Nothing. This is where I believe that Dumbledore is not perfect. He has prejudice in him to have such lack of faith in Tom that Dumbledore didn't bother to help him. Loony Loopy (me) responds: Obviously Dumbledore didn't have the evidence to convict Tom Riddle. The absence of evidence prevented Hagrid from having more severe punishment than expulsion and a broken wand. Of course Dumbledore is not perfect, but I don't think he is prejudiced. He let Lupin enroll (and later teach) at Hogwarts. In the wizard world most witches and wizards would rather shun a werewolf than a bright and handsome wizard like Tom Riddle. ==================================== CareALotsClouds wrote: Tom has never had anyone truely care about him, not then, not now. Yet he feels love. He loves his Mother. His own behaviour is the resentment he has towards his Father for abandoning his Mother. It's from that that he is driven to do the things he does towards muggles. Loony Loopy (me) responds: Did Tom Riddle really love his mother? Or was it the power/abilities that came from being a wizard that he loved? His mother died at childbirth, so he never knew her. Because he was raised in an orphanage, I will assume that he never met his father until he killed him. I can't imagine loving or hating a person I've never met. Harry was raised by his aunt and uncle, who in my opinion are abusive, and I would think that he has as much (if not more) reason as Tom to hate Muggles. ================================= CareALotsClouds wrote: I think [Tom] should go to the nut house. He doesn't deserve to die for he hasnt yet been given the chance to live. Loony Loopy (me) responds: Tom Riddle left the orphanage at age eleven to live at Hogwarts for seven years, except for holidays. In my opinion, he had been given the chance to live a normal (i.e., loving and nurturing) life. I'm not going to discuss the death penalty or life imprisonment issue here because this isn't the place for it. From a legal or medical standpoint, I don't know how to define "insane" or "psychotic." But I do think Tom Riddle can be held responsible for his actions. He chose to find the Chamber of Secrets and put in the time and effort to do so. He chose to frame Hagrid, not caring whether Hagrid would go to Azkaban or be executed. He chose to learn Avada Kedavra and to find and kill his father and grandparents. =================================== CareALotsClouds wrote: P.S. Why does Voldemort spend his life trying to find longer life when he isn't living a life? Loony Loopy (me) responds: Voldemort isn't living the type of life most people want to live. I think if he were offered the chance to have immortal life AS A MUGGLE, he wouldn't be trying so hard to find immortality. Regards, Loony Loopy From steinber at zahav.net.il Fri May 30 10:17:09 2003 From: steinber at zahav.net.il (m.steinberger) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:17:09 +0200 Subject: Adopted!Harry & HarrySavesHarry Message-ID: <002001c32694$c0d97d40$a809fea9@f2m8k9> No: HPFGUIDX 58899 ----- Original Message ----- From: Petra Pan To: ; Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 5:58 AM Subject: Adopted!Harry & HarrySavesHarry > Having finally read through the > Adopted!Harry/HarrySavesHarry thread > (hope I found all the posts!), I > have a quibble with the theory. > This is not a quibble over logistics > and 'method.' No, I find the > essential premise shaky, which is > too bad because the dilemmas are > quite interesting. > > Since this is TAS's guess as to what > JKR will present as Voldemort's > understanding of immortality and how > to achieve it, I am unsure whose > view of godhood is supposed to be at > work here. > > TAS, in part: > > ...as we know, Voldemort's main > > goal is immortality and absolute > > power, and, I propose, he > > discovered a way to attain not > > just "ordinary" immortality and > > absolute power, but something even > > greater: a form of dark godhood; > > not just living without end, but > > becoming a being "without > > beginning and without end" as G-d > > is. And part of the magic that > > would accomplish this godhood > > would require getting rid of his > > beginning - killing his own infant > > self. > > See, I consider the condition of > being "without beginning and without > end" to be a fairly minor attribute > of that which we consider divine. > The divine (what TAS termed godhood > or G-d) is ever-present and OUTside > the field of time and is THEREBY > considered to be "without beginning > and without end." To be concerned > with the elimination of beginnings > or endings is by definition dealing > with issues of and relationships to > time. > > As I don't consider such an > attribute to be an essential part of > what makes a divinity divine, I > find the usage of it as part of the > means to achieve divinity very > unsatisfactory. In other words, the > divine does not achieve divinity > BECAUSE it satisfied the condition > of having no beginning and no end... > > ...the divine simply IS. > > The "without beginning and without > end" part is merely a description of > the state of being divine; to > consider it a CONDITION of becoming > divine (which is how I am reading > what TAS termed as the magic that > would accomplish this godhood) and > thereby achieving immortality > oversimplify the process through > which one rise above the mortal > coil...no matter how one defines > such a process. > > Only with this all-too-literal > reading of the figurative > description of divinity, can > "killing his own infant self" = > "getting rid of his beginning" and > thereby put Voldemort on the road to > immortality. Y'know, you really > CAN'T unring a bell...once a mortal > has begun, there's no truly > meaningful way to eliminate his/her > beginning. Yes, 'it's magic!' but > ultimately the books' themes must > explore the human condition...or > else it's just really fun pulp. > > Of course, if I am reading this > theory incorrectly, I hope TAS would > enlighten me. > > Having said all that, your scenario > would be fine with me if this flawed > understanding of divinity is held by > Voldemort and is thematically > explored. One way to do so might be > to root Harry's ability to defeat > Voldemort in the fact that Harry > comes to understand what Voldemort > couldn't. Otherwise, I will > personally be sorely disappointed. > You are quite on target. Getting rid of one's beginning is certainly looking at divinity from the tail end. However, I can't imagine Voldemort really understanding the divine; all he wants is to be one plane higher than everyone else; he really doesn't want to divorce himself from the world of physical pleasures and power. So with his flawed understanding and lack of real desire for true divinity, he's after some lower level of what he understands to be godhood. And yes, I am sure that JKR will explore all this, and show the glory of real divinity (through Harry, some way) vs. Voldemort's corrupt desires. She's promised in at least one interview to show in later books where religion fits into all this. The Admiring Skeptic PS. I'm on web-view for a while, with no time to check the site, and am grateful for having got this off-list from Petra Pan. If this turns into a thread, someone please let me know and I'll get connected. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Thu May 29 19:01:38 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:01:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) Message-ID: <1CCEBDC3.7A0F67F1.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58900 In a message dated 5/28/2003 9:35:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Valky writes: > THis is because the one who simply wanted to find it would obtain it in a shorter time than someone who wanted to use it, should that second party get to the psychological point where they might actually get the stone. > > In summary, I think that Harry and the other protections were always relevant to the protection of the stone. The Mirror of Erised was a great protection with added contingency. Not, however, foolproof. > > OOP is released right after my last exam! I am so happy!!!! Hooray! :) What a way to celebrate exams ending. Okay. This is an ON topic response, I promise. I see your point about the mirror being a time-saver, not a foolproof plan. I think I may agree, because I have certainly been in that kind of situation before. Sometimes I lose things and can look and look until I don't even need them anymore; I just want the satisfaction of having found them. Now I'm thinking this one through a little further, and I'm wondering some more about the mirror charm. I, of course, am away from my book right now, so I can't look it up easily, but the way I remember it was that Quirrell wanted the stone so that LV could use it. Did he want it for himself at all? If he didn't want to use it himself, why wouldn't he be able to find the stone right away? Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Thu May 29 19:31:06 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:31:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heirs and Decendants Message-ID: <66DA6E27.55B35A85.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58901 In a message dated 5/29/2003 10:52:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiger Queen 429 writes: <> Brief Chronicles (me): I see them all as equally important houses. Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw just don't have the same attitude that Slytherins have. I would be willing to guess that Slytherins are probably annoying to all of the other students, whether they're in Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw. Of course, our hero is in Gryffindor, and his nemesis is in Slytherin. So, for the purpose of our story, we focus the most on those two houses. But I don't get the impression that the other two houses aren't as important. Also, Slytherin had an ideal for the WW that Gryffindor clearly opposed, regarding "pure-blood" witches and wizards. This may have set up a specific rivalry between the two schools that rears its ugly head during Quidditch and other school competitions. Tiger Queen 429 again: <> Brief Chronicles (me again): I think this is a good point. I can definitely see this. As is the way in most fantasy books, we follow the story of a supposed "Chosen One." Harry Potter is our "Chosen One." Why did he live? Why does Voldemort want so desperately to kill him? Etc. Although there may be answers eventually given to us, the general idea is that Harry Potter is special. Whether it's because of a power given to him by his mother, or it's because of something we know nothing about yet, Harry's our "Chosen One" for this series. So, I can see that it's possible the whole Potter line might be special. Either that, or it's special to Sirius Black for nostalgia purposes. :) Brief Chronicles From rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 29 19:31:25 2003 From: rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?robert=20haberfield?=) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:31:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye In-Reply-To: <75.11e5ebe3.2c0536b6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030529193126.15200.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58902 MadameSSnape at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/27/2003 4:42:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ivanova at idcnet.com writes: > From what little I > know of Campbell's Hero's Journey (mostly gleamed from hanging out on Star > Wars boards), at one stage the wise elderly mentor must die so that the hero > can ultimately fulfill his destiny. He needs the safety net the mentor > figure provides for him removed, therefore the mentor gets it. If not dies, at least becomes unreachable - as Merlin with Arthur. Though it is possible that Trelawney has been set up as a medium, who may later channel some of Dumbly's wisdom, I think was can expect to lose the old geezer either late in 5, or early in 6. Which, depending upon WHEN it happens, & what the situation is at that time, may give us an interesting replacement - from what I'm given to understand, the Deupty Headmaster/Headmistress doesn't necessarily get the job as a permanent replacement... Robert the old You did noy carry this thread to its next logical stage. Who will replace Dumbledor as head of Hogwarts if he dies? How about Arthur Weasley? Robert the old From helen at odegard.com Thu May 29 19:08:16 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:08:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c32615$a935cd30$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 58903 http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml Scroll down to the bottom of the article - in the blue-colored area. I can't help but think they mean Rita Skeeter. Lauri ----- Actually, I always thought she meant Mrs. Lestrange by that comment. Rita is pretty vile, but is she pure evil? Mrs. Lestrange seemed quite devoted to Voldemort. She is the only female Death Eater we have seen so far. She tortured the Longbottoms and rendered them insane (or was an accessory to it), most likely right in front of their child (Neville). Since she was the spokesperson at the trial, I tend to think she was the ringleader of that DE cell. She was described as sitting on the chair in the trial as if it were a throne. The line in the article says 'the first truly evil female character makes her debut'. Her *debut*. JKR has been pretty wishy washy on the return of Rita. I am predicting Mrs. Lestrange will be back, possibly when Azkaban is opened and the Dementors join Voldie. I wager that she will be completely sane and make trouble for Harry. Poisoned honey, anyone? Helen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfmom01 at yahoo.com Thu May 29 19:26:27 2003 From: elfmom01 at yahoo.com (Samantha) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:26:27 -0000 Subject: truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eric_and_lauri" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > > > However, JK did say she was introducing the first truly evil female > > character in GOF does anyone know where I can find that quote? > > > http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml > > Scroll down to the bottom of the article - in the blue-colored area. > I can't help but think they mean Rita Skeeter. > I just went to the link that tells info on GOF. I'm confused... 1. "The first truly evil female character makes her debut."---Rita? 2."There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character readers have grown to love."----I only remember Cedric? Who else died? Did we "love" Cedric? I mean he's ok and all, but "love"? 3.Another Weasley, Ron's cousin, appears.---HUH??? I must have missed that. Can anyone shed some light for me? From meboriqua at aol.com Thu May 29 20:50:04 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:50:04 -0000 Subject: Harry's Maturity (was: A Harry Failure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "honeycakehorse03" wrote: >I also think you can clearly see his higher maturity in the fact that he *doesn't* try to enter his name into the goblet. I think, Harry in first or second year would have done just that, at least after a bit of prodding by Ron. I think, he has matured more in that time than Ron who still thinks that Harry would have done that.> I'm not sure why you think Harry would have ever seriously wanted to enter the Triwizard Tournament, or that he actively responds to "prodding" by Ron at all. Actually, I'm not even sure why you think Ron prods Harry to begin with. Harry is not someone who wants attention. He is competitive, as we see in every Quidditch match he plays, but he is an excellent team player who likes to share in the victories with his teammates. Although Harry fantasized about what it would be like to enter the Triwizard Tournament, there is no evidence that he wanted that fantasy to become a reality. Mostly, Harry doesn't want people staring curiously at him, following him around snapping photos or initiating friendships with him because he is Famous Harry Potter. Most of his time participating in the Tournament was really hard for him. Even though Harry, like every single other 15 year old on the planet, has to grow emotionally and mentally (not to mention physically), he has a pretty good head on his shoulders. In SS it is Ron and not Harry who pushes Hermione to tears and as angry as he was at Hermione in PoA, it was Ron who made the comments out loud. He doesn't use his fame to his advantage, doesn't discuss the money he has inherited, and when it comes to Draco, it is usually not Harry who engages in the bickering, but Hermione or Ron. I'd even bet that Harry already feels he has failed big time after witnessing Cedric's death. I'm sure he'll suffer all summer long - and what a long summer it has been - with flashbacks and thoughts about how he could have prevented Cedric's death. He probably also feels he has failed with girls after being turned down by Cho, as nicely as she handled things. As far as Harry being more cautious... well, he might be, but I don't really see that happening, if the cover of OoP with Harry sneaking down a poorly lit hall filled with doors is any indication of his activities during his fifth year at Hogwarts. --jenny from ravenclaw, defender of Harry 'til the end ***************************************** From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 29 20:55:18 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:55:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 20 ghosts References: Message-ID: <001a01c32624$9ec080c0$99ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58906 Sabrina wrote: > In SS p. 115 it says: "About twenty ghosts had just streamed > through the back wall." > > Now, my question is, is it important for us to know who the other > ghosts that we don't know yet are? > > In that scene they are talking about Peeves not being a proper > ghost, therefore, we can assume that he is not amongst them > (apart from the fact that he is a poltergeist who perhaps can't go > through walls like ghosts, as he can throw around things and the > fact that Harry probably wouldn't be able to discern between a > ghost and a poltergeist at first) Going on a side tangent from this. We know that Peeves has the ability to affect matter (throwing things, etc), but we chalk that up to him being a poltergeist. But what about Moaning Myrtle? She is a ghost, but yet she has the ability to displace water when she dives into her toilet. She is known for causing flood after flood in that bathroom. Binns, if I'm recalling it correctly, can write on the chalkboard with chalk. So what, in this setting, sets a ghost apart from a poltergeist? Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Thu May 29 21:20:26 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:20:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sympathy for Voldemort? References: Message-ID: <003001c32628$2046e410$99ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58907 (missed who started this) > >Because thats what I believe Tom needed and still needs: help. > Harry is Dumbledore's little Gem, but not Riddle. Dumbledore could > of taken him under his wing, taught him right from wrong, > > done what the people at the orphanage didn't do. Even if > Dumbledore didn't believe that he could be helped (which is evident > that he didn't) he still didn't tell anybody else? And the fact that > he let Hagrid get the blame is ridiculous: Isn't it obvious that > Hagrid's Spider wasn't the monster: the effects of > > an Acromantula does not involve petrification or instant death. > You can tell by observing Mrytle's dead body that it wasn't an > Acromnatula at work there. > Darrin continued: > Dumbledore DIDN'T let Hagrid take the blame. He convinced the > Headmaster to let Hagrid go. > > But again, we're talking about a popular kid who could well have been > Dippet's gem. (Remember, Dippet was the head master, not Dumbledore) > > Dumbledore was the one who kept an eye on Riddle the rest of the > time, preventing Riddle from opening the chamber again -- pg. 230. > I think, in a way, there is an equal but sort of opposite parallel in the Hogwarts of today. As is stated above, Harry is Dumbledore's little gem, and Riddle wasn't. As Darrin speculates, Riddle might have been Dippet's little gem. In Riddle's time, there was one teacher who didn't care for Riddle, who didn't trust him, who kept a very close eye on him because he was always suspicious that Riddle was up to something. This teacher happened to be Dumbledore. Fast forward fifty years. We have Harry Potter, Dumbledore's little gem, a boy the majority of the teachers like. But, again, there is one teacher that doesn't like him, doesn't appear to trust him, and keeps a close eye on him because he suspects that Harry is always up to something. We all know who that teacher is. Not sure if this will be significant or not, but reading this made me notice this. On one end of the years, Tom Riddle, a boy who appeared to be good but was evil, suspected by a teacher the majority of us believe to be on the side of light and always has been. On the other end, Harry Potter, one that we know to be good (there is NO way he is going to be evil, although perhaps something will happen that will make the WW think he is), who is suspected by a teacher whose past is shady and his allegiances are still heavily debated. I don't know what conclusion to draw from this, but perhaps it will come into play later on. Or maybe it's just another one of those similarities that Harry and Tom share, but it is their choices that will blow this whole thing into the water. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova > > > Tom was known as an honest, handsome, hard-working boy and > Dumbledore said in > > CoS that he was very convincing and that he could twist people to > meet his needs. So Tom was well loved at school, but was it really > Tom or was it his > > charade? Tom has never had anyone truely care about him, not then, > not now. Yet he feels love. He loves his Mother. His own behaviour > is the resentment he has towards his Father for abandoning his > Mother. It's from that that he is > > driven to do the things he does towards muggles. His pain, which > no one helped heal has driven him into his extreme behaviour. To > murder Voldemort, or to arrest Voldemort would be discrimination > since he is psychotic, would a sane person kill hundreds of people? > Aren't killers there days that kill and kill known to be insane? > Whats so different about Voldemort? > > > > Hogwarts reached out to him. He had a home at Hogwarts, even among > the Slytherin crowd. He made Head Boy. He was popular. He was well- > liked, with every teacher except D-Dore. > > AND HE STILL chose to create a cult of followers and made them call > him "Lord Voldemort." He started searching for that Chamber from the > moment he got to Hogwarts. It took him five years and he found it in > his fifth year. > > You are expecting Dumbledore to be the one caregiver that could have > saved Riddle when it is obvious that Riddle was receiving kindness > and guidance from most of the rest of the faculty. > > > > Tom was doomed from the day he was born, his 'choices' as > Dumbledore says are not really his choices? He 'chose' to be > Voldemort's heir? I don't see how he chose to be in Slytherin, since > he was as clueless as Harry when he entered Hogwarts, he didn't know > which house was which? His extreme pain prevented him from turning > the other cheek towards what his Father done, he was never given > relief from it. He hasn't got a heart? I think he does for his > Mother. > > Harry chose to overcome it. Ron has chosen to overcome being > overlooked. Hermione has chosen to overcome being a Muggle-born in a > world that is prejudiced against them. > > Most people can deal with life without becoming a genocidal maniac. > (Hee! My favorite phrase! And it fits with V-Mort, even if it doesn't > with Salazar) > > > I think there are a lot of holes in this opinion so feel free to > disagree, Im curious to how everyone else feels towards Voldemort. > > I think he is the worst kind of racist filth and no amount of "wah, I > had a bad childhood" justifies that and I further hope that Harry, > Ron and Hermione take turns killing him a little bit at a time at the > end of book 7. THEN, I hope the dementor makes a Slurpee out of his > soul and 50 unicorns get to gore the hell out of him for him drinking > their blood in PS/SS. > > Darrin > --- Slurpee Souls. Man, that's a damn good band name. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Thu May 29 21:34:44 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:34:44 -0000 Subject: truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > I just went to the link that tells info on GOF. I'm confused... > > 1. "The first truly evil female character makes her debut."---Rita? I can't really imagine anyone else, but see below. > 2."There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character > readers have grown to love."----I only remember Cedric? Who else > died? Did we "love" Cedric? I mean he's ok and all, but "love"? If you go back to the source you mentioned, you'll see that GoF was also predicted to come in at something like 500 pages. The US hardcover version, however, clocks in at something like 737. So I'm wondering if the insertion of 200+ pages of additional material pushed some of the items mentioned into the next book. The only potential problem with this is that we end up in a new school year by pushing things off to a new book; at the least we are into the summer. Still, our man Hadrig is off on a secret mission for Dumbledore during the vacation, possibly with Madame Maxime. If that secret mission happens right away (DD recommends to Fudge that envoys be sent to the giants very quickly), then maybe Hagrid's death -- if that's the one being referred to -- is going to happen at the beginning of the fifth book. But I don't see why it couldn't originally have been plotted out for the end of the fourth one, perhaps with the tournament ending a week or two earlier. I do agree that Cedric does not seem likely to be the character we loved. > 3.Another Weasley, Ron's cousin, appears.---HUH??? I must have > missed that. Perhaps it's the accountant, but in any event, no cousin appeared in GoF. Again, maybe it's someone who was originally scheduled to but who got pushed off to OoP. Ersatz Harry, wondering which of the 200+ pages got added late in the game if his idea is correct From innermurk at catlover.com Thu May 29 21:42:22 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:42:22 -0000 Subject: truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58909 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Samantha" wrote: > > I just went to the link that tells info on GOF. I'm confused... > > > > 1. "The first truly evil female character makes her debut."--- Rita? > > I can't really imagine anyone else, but see below. > > > 2."There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character > > readers have grown to love."----I only remember Cedric? Who else > > died? Did we "love" Cedric? I mean he's ok and all, but "love"? > > If you go back to the source you mentioned, you'll see that GoF was > also predicted to come in at something like 500 pages. The US > hardcover version, however, clocks in at something like 737. So I'm > wondering if the insertion of 200+ pages of additional material pushed > some of the items mentioned into the next book. > > The only potential problem with this is that we end up in a new school > year by pushing things off to a new book; at the least we are into the > summer. Still, our man Hadrig is off on a secret mission for > Dumbledore during the vacation, possibly with Madame Maxime. If that > secret mission happens right away (DD recommends to Fudge that envoys > be sent to the giants very quickly), then maybe Hagrid's death -- if > that's the one being referred to -- is going to happen at the > beginning of the fifth book. But I don't see why it couldn't > originally have been plotted out for the end of the fourth one, > perhaps with the tournament ending a week or two earlier. > > I do agree that Cedric does not seem likely to be the character we loved. > > > 3.Another Weasley, Ron's cousin, appears.---HUH??? I must have > > missed that. > > Perhaps it's the accountant, but in any event, no cousin appeared in > GoF. Again, maybe it's someone who was originally scheduled to but > who got pushed off to OoP. > > Ersatz Harry, wondering which of the 200+ pages got added late in the > game if his idea is correct If you look at the title it was a tentative Harry Potter and the Doomspell Tournament. We all know this was changed to the Goblet of Fire. It's obviously a very early teaser piece and the book was probably not finished at the time it was given. Things change in the writing process what with editing and all. JKR said the Weasley cousin was written out because of several reasons (One being a plot hole), but we might see him/her(I can't remember) later. Also, there is an interview somewhere (sorry don't know which one, I'm horrible at citing) where JKR said she was really astonished that people didn't care that Cedric had died. She cried when she wrote his death, and thought others would care too. I know my sister had a crying fit when he died. So, I think he's the character we're supposed to care about. It was interesting to see the early rumors for GOF and which ones actually came true. It makes you wonder how many of the OOP ones will. Innermurk From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu May 29 22:15:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:15:24 -0000 Subject: 20 ghosts In-Reply-To: <001a01c32624$9ec080c0$99ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Grosskreutz" wrote: > Sabrina wrote: > > > In SS p. 115 it says: "About twenty ghosts had just streamed > > through the back wall." > > > > Now, my question is, is it important for us to know who the other > > ghosts that we don't know yet are? > > > > ... a side tangent .... ... Peeves has the ability to affect matter > (throwing things, etc), ... But ...Moaning Myrtle ... has the > ability to displace water .... Binns, ..., can write on the > chalkboard with chalk. So what, in this setting, sets a ghost apart from a poltergeist? > > Kelly Grosskreutz bboy_mn: First 20 ghost; in previous discussions I have pointed out that JKR uses the number 20 whenever she means a 'bunch'. When ever she needs a quantity descriptive word that is not too small and not too big, easy to visualize, etc.... In previous discussion many many examples of the use of the number 20 have been pointed out. My theory is that you can't take the number 20 literally; it just means a bunch. Many people have tried to use this repeated use of the number 20 to determine the exact number of student in Harry's year and by association, the number of students in the school. Twenty brooms for the first flying lesson, but I say it was just a 'bunch' of brooms. Twenty earmuffs in Herbology class is really not exactly 20, it's just a bunch of earmuffs. ... 20 cauldrons in the Potions classroom. ...20 tables in the Divination classroom. Based on my estimations, the Divination classroom seats 60 to 80 students. Back to the topic, I suspect twenty ghost flying through the room is not 20.00000 ghosts; it is just a indeterminate bunch of ghosts. Peeves & Myrtle- Ghosts are misty vaporous clouds of ectoplasm, where as Peeves has a solid physical form. It seems that despite his solid form, he is still able to preform many ghostly functions. Ghost on the other hand, while not solid, are still able to 'haunt'. In the tradition of ghost in fiction in general, it is possible for ghost to have limited interaction with the physical world. These usually reflect extreme emotional states of the ghosts. We never see Nearly Headless Nick interact with the physical world bacause, for the most part, he is an emotionally content ghost. Myrtle on the other hand is alway in extreme emotional turmoil and is therefore more able to engage in 'haunting' activities. In other words, she is more able to interact with the physical world. Although that interaction is still very limited. Typical 'haunting' activities of ghosts in fiction in general- - rattling chains - levitating objects - vocalizing; moans, crys, screams, etc... - slamming doors and/or windows - locking and/or unlocking doors - making themselves visible/invisible - making car engines start or stop - others Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From prongs at marauders-map.net Thu May 29 22:23:31 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:23:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 20 ghosts References: <001a01c32624$9ec080c0$99ccaf42@your74fv6srp82> Message-ID: <007301c32630$f0957c00$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 58911 Kelly Grosskreutz > Going on a side tangent from this. We know that Peeves has the ability to affect matter (throwing things, etc), but we chalk that up to him being a poltergeist. But what about Moaning Myrtle? She is a ghost, but yet she has the ability to displace water when she dives into her toilet. She is known for causing flood after flood in that bathroom. Binns, if I'm recalling it correctly, can write on the chalkboard with chalk. So what, in this setting, sets a ghost apart from a poltergeist? Now me silver stag: I don't remember any evidence of Binns being able to write on the blackboard. He walks through it to get into the classroom. Peeves can write on the board, though. Ch. 9 of SS Professor McGonagall pointed them into a classroom that was empty except for Peeves, who was busy writing rude words on the blackboard. "Out, Peeves!" she barked. Peeves threw the chalk into a bin, which clanged loudly, and he swooped out cursing. Professor McGonagall slammed the door behind him and turned to face the two boys. Silver stag, more fascinated by this subject than any that have been proposed in a while. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 29 22:39:09 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:39:09 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > How do you know Boggarts aren't like wasps -- when they get inside, you kill them! < There's this from chapter 12 of PoA ***** "Another boggart," said Lupin, stripping off his cloak. "I've been combing the castle ever since Tuesday , and very luckily, I found this one lurking inside Mr. Filch's filing cabinet.... **** (Hey! Maybe Lupin was looking for the Map!) ***** ..I can store him in my office when we're not using him; there's a cupboard under my desk he'll like." **** Lupin sounds rather solicitous of the boggart here. It seems odd to me. If the critters are dangerous, why risk keeping it in the office between lessons? If they aren't really so bad, why did he kill the other one? It sounds a bit callous. You could be right about the grindylow...but then why not reveal its fate? Pippin who doesn't like wasps either From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu May 29 22:47:51 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:47:51 EDT Subject: Deaths in GOF: Re: [HPforGrownups] truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58913 In a message dated 5/29/2003 4:27:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, elfmom01 at yahoo.com writes: > 2."There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character > readers have grown to love."----I only remember Cedric? Who else > died? Did we "love" Cedric? I mean he's ok and all, but "love"? > Who else died: Bertha Jorkins, Frank the Gardner....that's all I can remember off the top of my head. Was Crouch Sr. killed? As for "loving" Cedric....I'd say he was a very likeable guy and I was a bit shocked by his death (mainly because I was really into the book, I think), but I admit I wasn't torn apart by it. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pm255 at hotmail.com Thu May 29 20:32:19 2003 From: pm255 at hotmail.com (portia288) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:32:19 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Gryffindor Keeper Issues (WAS: TBAY/SHIP: SHIP-Speak) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58914 A somewhat disheveled girl fell onto the deck with a thud, and Cindy, Derannimer and Serena look up in surprise. "Sorry," said the girl breathlessly. "I'm Portia, and I heard you talking, and I just had to de-lurk. You were saying:" > "Hmmmm," Cindy said, interested. "I dunno. That might be a bit of > a stretch. To the extent Ron has ever been successful at something > in Harry's presence, I don't recall Harry every showing signs of > jealousy. Like during the chess match in PS/SS. I think it is more > likely that Ron is the Keeper and Ron isn't as good as Oliver Wood, > and Harry is irritated at Ron for that reason. That would create a > lot of tension, don't you think?" > > Cindy began pacing back and forth across the deck, deep in > thought. "And besides, the books often show Ron being less than > competent at various bits of magic, so having Ron be worse at > Quidditch would fit that pattern. Ron can't throw off the Imperius > Curse, for instance. Ron can't turn Scabbers yellow. Ron can't > banish his cushion." "And...so?" asked Cindy. "Well," said Portia, "We can't say that Ron is less than competent at magic. Just compare him to Harry and the other kids. Ron can't turn Scabbers yellow because he was using a dud spell that Fred and George gave him. True, he had trouble banishing his cushion, but look at how long it took Harry to grasp the Summoning Charm, whereas we don't hear about Ron having trouble with that. If JKR had wanted to show Ron as being not so great at magic, she could have easily thrown in a line about Harry getting some vindictive pleasure out of watching Ron struggle with Accio, since it was during the Rift." "Hmm," said Cindy, sounding unconvinced. "And the Imperius curse?" Portia sighed. "No one can throw off the Imperius curse except Harry. And speaking of Harry, he doesn't excel at anything except DADA, does he? We know that he's quite bad at Potions, in fact, while in PoA we hear of Ron's roots being 'beautifully cut.' And Snape doesn't criticize Ron nearly as much as Harry and Hermione and Neville (unless Ron's mouthing off at him). Could it be that Ron is actually good at Potions? Maybe. Anyway, you can't say that he's incompetent at magic. There's just no basis." "And your point is?" snapped Cindy. "Are you one of those sappy Ron- defenders, just waiting to go into a monologue about how wonderful Ron is?" "Ron IS wonderful," sniffed Portia, " but that's not the point. The point is, I don't think the tension over the Gryffindor Keeper is going to come because Ron is bad at it. I think it'll be because Quidditch is such an excellent opportunity for Ron to get *hurt*. What if a rogue Bludger starts following *Ron* around? What if the Slytherin Chasers start banging into him a little more than usual when they fly up to the hoops? It would crush the Muggle-loving Weasleys if Ron were seriously injured. And it would thoroughly devastate Harry, and everyone knows it because of the Second Task. Quidditch would be the perfect opportunity to do it, since everyone's outside the walls of the castle, and it's a dangerous sport by definition. You could make it look like an 'accident' to those who don't look too closely at it." Cindy, Derannimer and Serena still did not look convinced, but Portia smiled and thought, "just wait and see." ~Portia From helen at odegard.com Thu May 29 20:55:54 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 13:55:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c32624$b2cddd60$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 58915 I just went to the link that tells info on GOF. I'm confused... 1. "The first truly evil female character makes her debut."---Rita? 2."There will be a number of deaths, including that of one character readers have grown to love."----I only remember Cedric? Who else died? Did we "love" Cedric? I mean he's ok and all, but "love"? 3.Another Weasley, Ron's cousin, appears.---HUH??? I must have missed that. Can anyone shed some light for me? Ah, the Rita character was originally supposed to be a Weasley cousin. That one is easy. For reasons JKR hasn't elaborated on, it didn't work, created a plot hole or something. Cedric was important to the plot of GoF, and he was a likable character. However... from JKR's POV, she considered his death a pretty serious deal. In fact, I think she even said in an interview once that she was surprised people weren't as upset about his death as she was. She did consider it an important death of a loved character. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Thu May 29 21:41:42 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:41:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Poltergeist vs. Ghost (was 20 ghosts) Message-ID: <15a.1fc60cec.2c07d896@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58916 In a message dated 5/29/2003 4:56:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kelly Grosskreutz writes: < > > affect matter (throwing things, etc), but we chalk that up to him being a > poltergeist. But what about Moaning Myrtle? She is a ghost, but yet she > has the ability to displace water when she dives into her toilet. She is > known for causing flood after flood in that bathroom. Binns, if I'm > recalling it correctly, can write on the chalkboard with chalk. So what, in > this setting, sets a ghost apart from a poltergeist?>> Well, let's see. I was of the impression that a poltergeist isn't the spirit of someone who has died, but instead a spectre with no other past, who just likes to cause mischief. Let me check a handy dictionary, though. :) Okay, in the interest of time, I've just gone to www.dictionary.com and looked up both poltergeist and ghost. A dictionary outside the virtual world may provide something better. "Poltergeist" gives a brief definition using the word ghost, which explains (my paraphrase) that it is a ghost that makes a rapping sound or causes disorder. "Ghost" says what you would expect, (my paraphrase again), that it's the spirit of a dead person, haunting various locations. But I do feel that ghosts and poltergeists are different things, especially within the Harry Potter books. Peeves is clearly set apart from the other ghosts of the castle. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From madaxe at starspath.com Thu May 29 21:42:15 2003 From: madaxe at starspath.com (brassgryphon) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:42:15 -0000 Subject: truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58917 > http://www.bookmagazine.com/archive/issue10/potter.shtml > > Scroll down to the bottom of the article - in the blue-colored area. > I can't help but think they mean Rita Skeeter. > > Lauri Then again, it also says "could be as long as 500 pages", "Weasley cousin introduced", "we will learn why Voldemort is who he is", and it says they will kill off a character we have grown to love. No one likes either Crouch, I don't imagine, Frank Bryce isn't an object of admiration, Bertha Jorkins is off-stage, and Cedric, being the only one we'd heard of before Book 4, was only loved by the Gryffindor Chasers. However, if the truly evil female thing is authentic, I hear that Rita Skeeter was a replacement for Icicle once Rowling found the Gaping Hole... (Then again, she could mean Mrs. Lestrange or possibly Narcissa.) From yellows at aol.com Thu May 29 22:20:59 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:20:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Transfiguration Question Message-ID: <721BCB25.47B299E2.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58918 In a message dated 5/28/2003 9:24:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, freddie_mac1 at yahoo.com writes: > When I think about transfiguration, I have a sense that the > outer form is changed, but not necessarily the > inner/intrinsic aspects. If you change a ferret into a > human-shaped ferret, does the ferret gain human senses, > reasoning, soul (for lack of a better term), or is the > ferret simply reshaped into a human-like shape? That's interesting. I have no specific canon lines to cite, but I've always felt that transfiguration only changes the outer appearance. Of course, changing Malfoy into a ferret, though you never get a word from Malfoy about the thoughts that went through his mind as a ferret, you do get the impression that he's still Draco inside that body, and he's not an animal at all. Also, when McGonagall is a cat the very first time we ever meet her, we see her eyeing Privet Drive, waiting for Dumbledore to appear. She doesn't behave like a normal cat; she's much more attentive and focused on her task of waiting for news of Harry Potter instead of chasing random bugs on the ground or rolling around in the grass. (not to imply that I think cats aren't intelligent -- I love cats) :) Therefore, I believe that humans who are tranfigured to animals will have to follow the physical rules and limitations of the animal -- they can't talk, etc. -- but will still be the same thinking, functioning human beings inside. Also, it follows that an animal transfigured to a human would still be an animal inside. He or she would have the ability to speak, but not necessarily the understanding of human languages, etc. Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Thu May 29 22:29:57 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:29:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's replacement (was The Gleam of Triumph) Message-ID: <3109EBAE.509D8A37.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58919 In a message dated 5/29/2003 2:31:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, Robert the old writes: <> Wouldn't that be nice? :) But I don't think it would work, the more I go over it in my mind. Here's why: If Dumbledore has to die, then replacing him with another good guy would make the whole ordeal seem kind of pointless. It would also be almost rude to Dumbledore's memory, to say that any old good guy could fill that role. Arthur Weasley is wonderful, but Harry needs to undergo a real trial for this death of his mentor ("passing of the torch") to be significant. If his mentor is replaced by another father-figure, it won't be a strong enough blow and it won't be a major turning point in the story. No, I fear it will have to be someone more along the lines of ... Malfoy? Brief Chronicles From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu May 29 23:32:56 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 23:32:56 -0000 Subject: truly evil female character, was: Re: Icicle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58920 Samantha asked: 1. "The first truly evil female character makes her debut."---Rita? I, Tom, reply: Well, my take on this issue is that Rita isn't evil. She's an opportunist and a liar, but I don't think that this qualifies her as evil. She's a journalist. What do you expect? It's also interesting that JKR doesn't consider any of the Slytherin ladies as evil, if the first truly evil female enters the story in GoF. This means that Millicent Bulstrode and Pansy Parkinson don't make the cut. They're mean, but not evil. Sorry, Darrin. ;-) That said, I have two guesses on who that evil female character is, one that I like far more than the other: 1) Narcissa Malfoy. We meet her first, but I have difficulty classifying her as evil because, to date, she's really done nothing in canon that we can attribute to her, good *or* bad. 2) The dark-haired lady from the Pensieve, the woman whom I consider to be Mrs. Lestrange. I mean, let's face it - she proclaims her loyalty to Voldemort in front of a council of wizards, and tells Crouch that her and her compadres went looking for him. I think that this qualifies her as evil, oh yes, *very* evil. ;-) -Tom From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu May 29 23:50:10 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:50:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quirrell and the Troll Message-ID: <162.2108ad74.2c07f6b2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58921 In a message dated 5/29/2003 3:45:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kemp at arcom.com.au writes: > Pickle Jimmy blocks the attempt to score: > ========================================= > Far be it from me to argue :-) BUT... > In your response to my question you state > 1) "the other teachers don't know about each others enchantments" > > This is a quote from PS/SS when Hagrid tells HRH who is garding the > stone... > > Harry knew Ron and Hermione were thinking the same as he was. If > Snape had been in on protecting the Stone, it must have been easy to > find out how the other teachers had guarded it. He probably knew > everything -- except, it seemed, Quirrell's spell and how to get past > Fluffy. > > So, if HRH thought that those involved in protecting the stone would > at least know what each other had used, where is the Canon that says > they didnt? Me (Cassie): The key word there is PROBABLY. They know that Snape went to the Third floor on Halloween..but they didn't know it was to stop Quirrell. They thought he wanted to see what was up there. And there is Cannon to show they (at least Quirrell) didn't know about Fluffy until then. PS/SS Chp. 17: "You're too nosy to live, Potter. Scurrying around the school on Halloween like that, for all I knew you'd seen me coming to look at what was gaurding the stone" Then, in Ch. 14 it says "...Harry, Ron, and Hermione would press their ears to the door to check that Fluffy was still growling inside." This makes me think Quirrell knew there was something (some kind of beast) inside, because one could hear it growling. However, he didn't know it was a three-headed dog until Halloween. I think they know who...but not how. Ch. 14 again: Hagrid says: "..he borrowed Fluffy from me....then some 'o the teachers did enchantments...Professor Sprout, Professor Flitwick, Professor McGonagall" "Professor Quirrell-an' Dumbledore himself did something', o' course. Hang on, I've forgotten somone. Oh yeah, Professor Snape." If I were on of the Trio, I'd be thinking Snape would go after Quirrell first because he's the weakest and Hagrid because he's...well...not the brightest and more gullible. Pickle Jimmy continues: > > 2) "Quirrell had to investigate each one in order to get to the > stone, which is why it took him a year to attempt it" > 3) "Snape several times asked him how far he was getting" > > The only occasion that I could find in which Snape confronts Quirrell > is after the Quidditch match when they go in to the forrest... > > "... d-don't know why you wanted t-t-to meet here of all p-places, > Severus..." > "Oh, I thought we'd keep this private," said Snape, his voice icy. > "Students aren't supposed to know about the Sorcerer's Stone, after > all." > Harry leaned forward. Quirrell was mumbling something. Snape > interrupted him. > "Have you found out how to get past that beast of Hagrid's yet?" > > Which suggests that the main unknown obstacle in getting to the stone > was Fluffy - I found no evidence that Quirrell investigated any other > staff, or any other occasion when Snape interrogated him (though I > stand to be corrected) Me again: PS/SS: (in the same scene Pickle Jimmy referred to above) "Very well," Snape cut in. "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie" While we don't see/hear them talking about the Stone again, this line leads me to believe they did or may have. There's also different parts in 'The man with two faces' chapter where Quirrell says that Snape was 'on to him'. I don't think he could've really known this unless Snape made it known in some way or another. As for interrogating the other teachers. We don't see evidence of this, I think, because the Trio aren't exactly chummy with the Professors. They had no real evidence that Snape was trying to steal the stone..and if they went up to McGonagall or Dumbledore and said they thought he was going to try and steal it like they did to Hagrid they would be in a lot of troulbe, I imagine. Then, of course, questions would be asked about how they knew what they did...etc..etc.. Let's look at each of the challenges: 1. Fluffy: The evidence is quite clear on this. Hagrid explains in PS/SS Ch. 16 the he got the dragon egg from a stranger he was playing cards with and that the stranger was interested in fluffy/the creatures Hagrid took care of... "Well-yeah-how many three-headed dogs d'yeh meet, even around Hogwarts? So I told him, Fluffy's a piece 'o cake if yeh know how to calm him down, jus' play him a bit o' music an' he'll fall straight off ter sleep-" One thing I'd like to know is how Quirrell found out about Hagrid's wanting to have a dragon. 2. Devil's Snare. If Quirrell figured each Professor would do something in their feild of expertise, he probably knew Sprout would do something with plants. Chances are he: a. Studied dangerous plants, hoping something would come in handy b. Found out about the Devil's Snare and prepared. c. Took a chance...either he or Voldemort knew how to fight the Devil's Snare and Quirrell did so when the time came. 3. Flying Keys. Again...same thing. Either he found out somehow (from Flitwick) about his particular enchantment or he took his chances. What we do know is he can fly and was able to get the key. Harry had an advantage here. The key's wing was broken AFTER Quirrell used it. He had the broken wing to watch for. 4. Whether he found out before or after he got there...Quirrell/Voldemort knew how to play Wizard Chess. I don't think McGonagall would go blabbing about her enchantment to anyone...but she may have to Quirrell, since he'd seem to be the least likely candidate to go after the Sone. I'm highly doubtful on her telling anyone...but as I said, one of them knew how to play the game. 5. Potions challenge. Again...Quirrelled probably be thinking Snape=Potions. I'm quite sure Snape didn't give him so much as a hint towards what the challenge was exactly. We just know that Quirrell!Mort was able to figure the logic puzzle out and he got to see the odd, poetic side of Snape. 6. The Mirror of Erised. I think this is the one thing he definately did not know about because he couldn't predict what Dumbledore would do and probably wouldn't question him, lest he be found out. So...even if he didn't know EXACTLY what each challenge was, he probably had some idea, again, by the expertise of each protector. And, who knows, even if he didn't find out exactly he may've gotten little hints. Or at least Voldemort may've picked up something during a conversation between Quirrell and one of the other teacher's that Quirrell wouldn't have on his own. Pickle Jimmy: > > > So, back to my original question So why weren't the staff > > suprised with wimp!quirrell at halloween? Me: I posted a theory on his earlier. It is possible Quirrell contributed the troll BEFORE his little trip/breakdown. Or while he was on this trip before or after he met Voldemort. We know that he was fine before he went abroad. We don't know when each challenge was set up. I have my own question. Was there another way to get down to the PS/SS chambers? I doubt all the teachers jumped down the trapdoor to set up their challenges or that Dumbledore went through all of them to save Harry. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu May 29 23:50:42 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 23:50:42 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58922 Gretlit2003 wrote: Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left Hogwarts? Shaggy added: throughout PoA Lupin keeps his relationship with Harry on an impersonal student-professor level. A very kind, understanding teacher, but still just a teacher. I (Tom) reply: Agreed with Shaggy, but let me add this: we also have never seen Lupin with an owl, yet we've seen him travelling, and also ready to travel. And although there are other magical methods he could use to keep in touch, such as Floo Powder, we don't see students ever using those in canon until Sirius uses the Gryffindor fire to talk to Harry. So, I'm guessing that students don't really use them that often, if ever. Greatlit2003 wrote: Does Lupin's strange behavior bother anyone else? Tom asks: Explain `strange.' I don't think Lupin does act strangely at all, at least, not once we understand why he had those occasionally odd expressions on his face at the mention of James. Greatlit2003 wrote: If Lupin was part of the "old crowd" as Dumbledore says at the end of GoF, then why did Sirius and James suspect him to be the spy? Does that suggest that they also suspected everyone else in the "old crowd" (including Dumbledore perhaps) to be working against them? Tom (I) reply: They did have mutual suspicions of each other: PoA, Ch.10: "Indeed, [Dumbledore] had suspected for sometime that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You- Know-Who." PoA, Ch.19 "Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrew's head. "Forgive me, Remus," said Black. "Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. "And will you, in turn, forgive me for believing *you* were the spy?" The way I see this is that basically everyone was under suspicion, some more than others. That's perhaps why Pettigrew got away with it - no one suspected him because he was too weak and snivelling. -Tom From tahewitt at yahoo.com Fri May 30 02:24:13 2003 From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's successor In-Reply-To: <1054243116.6215.79301.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030530022413.21993.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58923 Robert the old wrote: You did noy carry this thread to its next logical stage. Who will replace Dumbledor as head of Hogwarts if he dies? How about Arthur Weasley? ME: As much as the idea makes me cringe, I think it would be intersting if Snape were made headmaster. Think of the possibilities-how it would effect daily life at Hogwarts, especially Harry, Ron, and Hermione, how no one is really sure of Snape's loyalties, etc. It would definately make for interesting reading! There's reasons to believe that Snape WOULD be made headmaster if DD died. DD's replacement is likely to be someone with a background in education, something Snape has over Arthur Weasley. In CoS, when Harry goes into Tom Riddle's diary, he sees Dumbledore as a professor, so there is an established pattern of promoting professors to headmaster. Also, with Lucius Malfoy basically controling the board of directors, Snape is a shoe-in (assuming Malfoy thinks Snape is still loyal to Voldemort). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri May 30 02:58:09 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:58:09 EDT Subject: Deaths in GOF: Re: [HPforGrownups] truly evil female character, was: Re: ... Message-ID: <26.3a1cefbd.2c0822c1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58924 In a message dated 5/29/2003 5:59:49 PM Central Standard Time, IAmLordCassandra at aol.com writes: > Who else died: Bertha Jorkins, Frank the Gardner....that's all I can > remember > off the top of my head. Was Crouch Sr. killed? > Yes. Barty Jr. killed him right after Harry ran off to get Dumbledore. He hid him under the invisibilty cloak. He later transfigured him into a bone and buried him in Hagrid's garden. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri May 30 03:29:32 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 03:29:32 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58925 DrMM wrote: > I'd be interested to read this thread (must have joined after it > finished) as I've always thought Harry needs to fail in a big way in > order for him to grow. ::waves back at Annemehr:: Yep. That was me that started that little discussion. Glad to know you found it interesting Annemehr. I personally find failure to be vital to existence and growth. Which is why I am so glad Dr. MM agrees with me. :) At least on that point. DrMM wrote: > While others may disagree, I've always thought that Harry tends to > be careless, reckless and just a touch arrogant. You mean he is being a pre-teenage boy? How novel. :) Just joking with you. Yes he is a bit arrogant and definitely careless, but you manage to stop one of the most powerful dark wizard at the tender age of one just by looking at him (I assume), become the youngest seeker in a century who never losses a match when it is fairly played, nor ever be fully punished for your careless actions and in fact be rewarded for your "rash" behavior and chivalrous acts of insanity, and also have groupies. Compare him to modern day celebrities and he is an out and out dealing with his celebrity with amazing grace. *And* without a psychologist or therapy. >PS/SS: In the first book, Harry & Ron race into the bathroom to fight > a troll. They both could have run off to find a teacher and explain > what they saw but they rush in and fight it themselves. They never > consider the consequences, which could have been deadly. Well they did not run off to fight the troll. They ran off to find Hermione. They found her and the troll trying to kill her. So therefore, they saved her life because they did not run off to find the teachers but dealt with the situation at hand. Frankly, they did not have the luxury of yelling for help. Hey, that troll made a lot of noise. You would think McG, Snape, and Quirrel would have followed the sound of breaking porcelain and pipes. So that time, Harry and Ron were just being a good friend because it was Ron's fault that she was there in the first place. >In a somewhat more iffy example, Harry rushes off to try and stop >Quirrel *by himself*. While he recognizes the danger, he at least >thinks he at least has a chance to stop him, which has always seemed >a bit arrogant to me. As we find out when we read the story, if >Hermione hadn't been there, Harry would have been stopped at the >second challenge. Well there are many theories on the site about the obstacles on the path to the mirror. Really, they were a bit elemental, don't you think? And what was the point of them, when the mirror itself was an amazing defense. The main theory I like, and works so well with MD, is the testing of the character and skill of the kids. But that gets into Dumbledore setting up the course to have Harry confront Quirrelmort at the mirror alone. It is a long theory, and I do not have time for it here, but essentially the mirror and stone were bate for Harry and Quirrelmort to reach that chamber to confront each other and see if Voldemort can be killed in a host body. Really Harry was in little danger, and in fact, Dumbledore was there to jump it if Harry could not kill Voldemort in Quirrell's body. But I am digressing a bit. The point I am trying to make is that Harry was slightly pushed to go after that stone and mirror. He was shown how the mirror worked by Dumbledore himself, which was very fishy thing to do. I mean, what reason did Dumbledore have to do that? If he wanted Harry to see his parents, he could have shown him that picture book like he had Hagrid give him in the end. I know, it does not *say* Dumbledore influenced that gift, but I like to think he did. But that is a guess not fact. Harry knew what was the right thing to do in the mirror's case. As far as he knew he had all the fact tot he situation. He knew Dumbledore was gone and that no one else was going down to stop Quirrel. All the other teachers told him to leave it alone because it was well protected. But from Harry's point of view, the stone was not protected as well as they thought. He knew Quirrelmort could get past Fluffy. Meaning if they were not aware of that fact, they would sleep well that night and the stone would be in jeopardy. So from Harry's view he had to go. He had luck with Voldemort before, and he went with that confidence and that confidence alone. Plus, a few dinky spells like Alohomora and Wingardium Leviosa. Wouldn't it be funny if he bet Voldemort because of those two spells? Anyway... > CoS: What reckless things DIDN'T Harry do in CoS? He doesn't tell > Dumbledore he's a Parseltounge. Hmm. Ok, Harry did not tell Dumbledore about the parseltongue. Well actually, Harry should have assumed Dumbledore knew that from the dueling club. The whole school knew he was a parseltongue, but what Dumbledore did not know was that Harry was hearing voices. And why was it that Harry was afraid to tell him that? What was he afraid of? Why did he not trust Dumbledore enough to tell him that fact? Well, he had Ron and Hermione telling him that hearing voices is a bad thing. What is Harry most afraid of? Being kicked out of the wizard world and taken away from his friends. What do they do with crazy people and wizards? Ship them off from all decent society. Far from Hogwarts and his new beloved life. Harry does not know Dumbledore that well yet. He does not know if telling Dumbledore that he hears disembodied voices will get him the fast tract to Mungo's. > He rushes off to the Forbidden > Forest, knowing full well how dangerous it is and nearly dies. Well, Hagrid did tell him to do it. Harry is anything if not obedient. And Harry did have detention in the forest where he was rescued by a centaur the last time. > And > the thing that has always annoyed me -- knowing the location of the > Chamber and after discovering what a completely incompetent person > Lockheart was (which he already suspected), he and Ron didn't go ask > another teacher for help. Instead, he and Ron go to the chamber > themselves -- knowing that they're going to face a very dangerous > monster. Well yes that was stupid, but then again like with Hermione. Harry and Ron thought Ginny was dead or dying down there. They were pressed for time. Harry has gotten more confident in his abilities and knows now it is a snake. He had luck with the last two snakes he had encountered in controlling them. And now it was his fellow Gryffindor, best friend's sister, and his own cute crusher that was down there. Harry's mind is focused when it is on a mission, and so far has *any* teacher really helped him defeat a bad guy? Not by *Harry's* knowledge. That happens without his knowledge. > PoA: There are a lot of things that happen here. Harry doesn't even > consider that Hermione might be right about the Firebolt (not to > mention how badly he treats her when he's angry about it). This I chalk up to a boy with a love for flying. He gets this wonderful gift and it is taken awy on the off chance that it might be...might be cursed. Come on, the chances of it broom being from Black was very slim and Hermione was just lucky in her guess. She was *completely* wrong in her guess for motives though. And boys pout when you take their new toy away. Ever seen a grown man with a new toy like a PDA? They are so giddy and enthralled. It is cute but also means you do not exist and he world revolves around figuring out all its nuisances and cool tricks. Hermione walked up and figuratively snatched that new toy out of his hands and told him he *might* get it back. Come now. Will any guy here on the site say they too would not have pouted? And they are grown men. Harry is only 13. >He runs off to Hogsmeade, knowing that a killer is after his life. And Harry was scolded for that by Lupin. That was rash. I will not disagree. But Harry was properly told not to do that again. >When Ron is attacked, he again rushes straight into a dangerous >situation rather than asking for help. Again. Did he have time to? >If Sirius Black *had* been a >Death Eater, he would have been dead the minute he entered the door. >And while we don't know this for sure, if Harry had gone to the >school for help, someone else could have seen Peter and Sirius would >have been proven innocent. Eh. Not necessarily. Harry was whisked away to a whole slew of DE's and they did not kill him. They toyed with him, but did not kill him instantly. And Peter would not have come out if someone else had found Black and *Scabbers*. Why would Peter of transfigured? He was safe as the rat, and no one would listen to Black's story. They had not so far in twelve years. > GoF: This is the book where I think Harry's *finally* starting to > think about things more. In fact, I can't think of one thing that > Harry does that he isn't forced to do because of his unwilling > participation in the Tournament (Well, he should have told > Dumbledore about his dreams.). A fourteen-year-old boy telling Dumbledore about his dreams? How could Harry of known they were really happening? He still does not know that. In fact, Dumbledore does not know Harry can see the present in his dreams. But when Harry had that fit in Divination class, he did go and tell Dumbledore. That was good. The scar and all hurting. He told his "visions" then. > In all of these books, Harry has survived out of luck and with the > help of his friends. Hehehe. Now, I do not agree with that. It seems very clear to me that Harry is supported with a greatly hidden understructure of help even without MD there. Dumbledore is investing much into Harry's education and protecting through Snape, Lupin, and all. Dumbledore singled Harry out to show him the mirror's workings in PS/SS. He sent the hat and Fawkes in CoS and told Harry in Hagrid's hut that "help" would come if he asked for it. PoA is highly debated here, but I firmly believe Dumbledore had a hand in making sure Harry was safe and survived. And in GoF, well the whole crew was making sure Harry got through the tasks. And he did, but it was that last moment of Task three that changed everything. but once again, there is too much to go into here about my views on Harry's hidden structure making sure he stays alive and successful. > If Harry fails, I think it will cost the life of someone he cares > about. And for Harry to learn and grow the most, it should be his > own carelessness that causes it. I predict that the death most > people think will happen in OOtP will be caused because Harry does > something stupid -- and is caught because of it. Or at least in > book 6. I still am not sure Harry's failure will cause a death directly. It seems so harsh and debilitating, but it would help him grow and focus more that is for sure?if it does not kill his spirit. I think the failure will happen in book five, have him dealing with it in book six, and then out to conquer all in book seven. It would be a nice arch of a story I think but probably very typical. But then again, if you look at life, it can be. After all, it is how he conquers which makes the story different. Melody oh, ::an another wave out to the listee that will not be surprised at all that I am posting to this thread since she is slowing getting me back into the habit of reading the site again after my trip:: From christianrooster at hotmail.com Fri May 30 00:14:02 2003 From: christianrooster at hotmail.com (Mark) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 00:14:02 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: <721BCB25.47B299E2.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/28/2003 9:24:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, freddie_mac1 at y... writes: > Therefore, I believe that humans who are tranfigured to animals > will have to follow the physical rules and limitations of the > animal -- they can't talk, etc. -- but will still be the same > thinking, functioning human beings inside. > > Also, it follows that an animal transfigured to a human would still > be an animal inside. He or she would have the ability to speak, but > not necessarily the understanding of human languages, etc. > > Brief Chronicles Brief, I agree with your assessment. It's a lot like the stories in "The Sword in the Stone" where Arthur was magically tansformed by merlin into animals just to see what it was like. But I'll throw another question out along these same lines: What happened when Krum turned the stone into a Dog? Obviously it was enough of a dog to distract the dragon (for a moment), but it didn't have the "mind of a rock". It was very "dog like". Mark From hieya at hotmail.com Fri May 30 04:36:59 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 04:36:59 -0000 Subject: Transformations, Clothes, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58927 Do Animagi retain their possessions when they transform? HP being a children's book, we can't have a naked Sirius strutting around the Shrieking Shack, so we know that they keep their clothes. But would Animagi be able to keep the items in their pockets, as well as bags? If so, Pettigrew should still have his wand, because he was holding it when he transformed 13 years ago. If clothes become part of the animal, then James Potter could have stuffed baby Harry into a large coat pocket, and then transformed. If Voldemort did not know that James was an Animagus, he would not have been able to recognize and kill him. greatlit2003 From hieya at hotmail.com Fri May 30 04:49:27 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 04:49:27 -0000 Subject: Money Issues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58928 Are Lupin's clothes and suitcase tattered because he rips them apart each month, or because he cannot afford to buy new things since he cannot find employment? Why did Sirius have so much money in his vault that he can afford to buy the Firebolt for Harry? Somewhere is PoA, Harry thinks that buying that broom will essentially empty his vault, so he refrains from purchasing it. Sirius has not worked for 12 years. Like James Potter, did he too come from a rich family? Why does Percy have brand-new dress robes for the Yule Ball? Because he is earning money? Why can't he buy stuff for his siblings? This issue has bothered me for a LONG time: Why doesn't Mrs. Weasley work outside of the home? No offense meant to homemakers, but since she is a witch, and we saw in GoF how easy it was for her to prepare dinner and clean up, she probably doesn't do much around the house. Just waves her wand, and the dishes are cleaned and dinner is set for two. The kids are all away from home 10 months out of the year. I apologize if these issues have been discussed before. greatlit2003 From patricia at obscure.org Fri May 30 05:04:05 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 01:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: <1CCEBDC3.7A0F67F1.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58929 On Thu, 29 May 2003 yellows at aol.com wrote: > Now I'm thinking this one through a little further, and I'm wondering > some more about the mirror charm. I, of course, am away from my book > right now, so I can't look it up easily, but the way I remember it was > that Quirrell wanted the stone so that LV could use it. Did he want it > for himself at all? If he didn't want to use it himself, why wouldn't he > be able to find the stone right away? Even if Quirrel did not intend to produce the elixir of life for his own use, he still wanted to get the stone and present it to Lord Voldemort to curry favor with his master. So he *did* want to use the stone (to improve his standing with LV), just not for its most obvious purpose (living forever). What he wants to use it for is irrelevant; that he wants to use it at all is what matters. Because he wanted to use the stone for something, he could not get it out of the mirror. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri May 30 05:49:50 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 05:49:50 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > wrote: > > > > > How do you know Boggarts aren't like wasps -- when they get > inside, you kill them! < > > There's this from chapter 12 of PoA > ***** > "Another boggart," said Lupin, stripping off his cloak. "I've been > combing the castle ever since Tuesday , and very luckily, I found > this one lurking inside Mr. Filch's filing cabinet.... > **** > > (Hey! Maybe Lupin was looking for the Map!) > ***** > ..I can store him in my office when we're not using him; there's a > cupboard under my desk he'll like." > **** > Lupin sounds rather solicitous of the boggart here. It seems odd > to me. If the critters are dangerous, why risk keeping it in the > office between lessons? If they aren't really so bad, why did he > kill the other one? It sounds a bit callous. You could be right > about the grindylow...but then why not reveal its fate? > > Pippin > who doesn't like wasps either Annemehr: Aw, man! I forgot about that part. And Lupin calls the Bogart "him" instead of "it," too. Alright, I started off tongue-in-cheek for this part (but not the grindylow part, except for Harry stunning it). But now this is getting serious. And I don't have much of an answer, except that a boggart is a "dark creature." But, can dark creatures even be culpable for that, as if they could help it? Lupin's attitude would seem to fit with other things we know of the WW though, such as hurling gnomes out of gardens, transfiguring hedgehogs into pincushions -- and distrusting werewolves! So, maybe Lupin is nice to them until he finishes them off, er, humanely? I don't make the wasps suffer, either... As for revealing the fate of the grindylow, what do you want -- a laundry list of what happened to *all* the dark creatures? He had a grindylow *tank* because the grindylow needed water to live in while it was in the castle. The kids didn't notice any tank on the train, though. Would they, or did he just pick it up in Hogsmeade? Did JKR mention the tank because it's significant, or does she throw in some insignificant details to help mask the significant ones? Annemehr who can't think of *any* supposedly good character who will turn out to have been evil all along -- but is pretty sure one of them will! From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri May 30 00:10:51 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:10:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Transfiguration Question Message-ID: <76.2e20c4aa.2c07fb8b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58931 In a message dated 5/29/2003 7:09:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yellows at aol.com writes: > Of course, changing Malfoy into a ferret, though you never get a word from > Malfoy about the thoughts that went through his mind as a ferret, you do get > the impression that he's still Draco inside that body, and he's not an animal > at all. I noted the fact that he still tried to head for the dungeons, where he'd be "safe", either in the Serpents' Den or with Snape...that would seem to indicate (to me, at least) that there was still some human intelligence there. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu May 29 23:42:45 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:42:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Gleam of Triumph in Dumbledore's Eye Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58932 In a message dated 5/29/2003 4:24:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rhaberfield at yahoo.co.uk writes: Sherrie: >> Which, depending upon WHEN it happens, &what the situation is at that time, >> >> may give us an interesting replacement - from what I'm given to understand, >> the Deupty Headmaster/Headmistress doesn't necessarily get the job as a >> permanent replacement... > > > > Robert the old > You did noy carry this thread to its next logical stage. Who will replace > Dumbledor as head of Hogwarts if he dies? How about Arthur Weasley? Much will depend, as I said, on the situation when it happens. A frightening thought would be that, with Fudge firmly in his...back pocket, Lucius Malfoy becomes Headmaster. Of course, most of us hope that it will be Minerva - but Arthur would be a good choice. Sherrie (who's NEVER been accused of being "logical"!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au Fri May 30 07:00:47 2003 From: kenneyjohn at yahoo.com.au (kenney) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:00:47 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58933 yellows at aol.com wrote: Quirrell wanted the stone so that LV could use it. Did he want it for himself at all? If he didn't want to use it himself, why wouldn't he be able to find the stone right away? Patricia Bullington-McGuire wrote Even if Quirrel did not intend to produce the elixir of life for his own use, he still wanted to get the stone and present it to Lord Voldemort to curry favor with his master. So he *did* want to use the stone (to improve his standing with LV), just not for its most obvious purpose (living forever). What he wants to use it for is irrelevant; that he wants to use it at all is what matters. Because he wanted to use the stone for something, he could not get it out of the mirror. The Key of Kenney: I agree. It seems that Harry, unlike Quirrel: wanted to STOP someone from finding the stone. His deepest disire was to find the stone before Quirrel, while Quirrel's deepest desire was to present the stone to Voldemort; he says so in the book while commenting on what he sees in the mirror (we all know the books now, so you really dont need a quote). This line of logic really stumped me for some time, like most of the books, my logic doesn't sink in untill the second or third reading. >From the Key of Kenney Who, like Dobby: must poke mr Harry Potter, sir, if he is to wake up, sir! From htfulcher at comcast.net Fri May 30 09:43:31 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:43:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Successor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58934 Sherrie writes: > Which, depending upon WHEN it happens, & what the situation is at that time, may give us an interesting replacement - from what I'm given to understand, the Deupty Headmaster/Headmistress doesn't necessarily get the job as a permanent replacement...< ..... > Much will depend, as I said, on the situation when it happens. A frightening thought would be that, with Fudge firmly in his...back pocket, Lucius Malfoy becomes Headmaster. Of course, most of us hope that it will be Minerva - but Arthur would be a good choice.< ME comments: I agree that the Deputy Headmaster/mistress may not necessarily be promoted to the full position IRL, however it strikes me that should Dd die McGonigall would probably get the job. Consider that in CoS while in the penseive Harry finds that Dd is the Transfiguration, a position that McG currently holds. Also in CoS, when Dd is suspended McG takes over. In fact, throughout the series, whenever Dd is out of the picture (away, etc.) it is McG who is in charge. Now this could be simply because she is DHM, but ISTM that she is the only choice should Dd join the choir invisible. As to the 'rite of passage' that Harry would have to adjust to the new HM, who could be evil, etc., etc., consider how McG would run things if she were truly in charge. Would she be as indulgent towards Harry's 'rule bending'? I think not! The only rule I recall her ever being in favour of bending was getting permission for Harry to be on the Quidditch team. Nope, if Dd dies (please no!), my knutts are on McGonagall. MarEphraim From htfulcher at comcast.net Fri May 30 09:57:09 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:57:09 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58935 the Key of Kenney writes: > It seems that [snip, snip, snip] Quirrel's deepest desire was to present the stone to Voldemort; he says so in the book while commenting on what he sees in the mirror (we all know the books now, so you really dont need a quote).< ME comments: Quirrel couldn't retrieve the Stone because at the time he is physically being possessed by He Who Must Not be Named. The function of the term 'use' in the passage is concrete -- You Know Who wishes to use the Stone to make the Elixer of Life, and he's plastered on the back of Quirrel's head, thus Quirrel can't find the Stone. Also, Quirrel can't touch Harry (In Canon, I don't recall Quirrel demuring to shake Harry's hand in the Leakey Cauldron as in the film), noting that after the Troll incident You Know Who never again trusted him -- that's when he was taken over. This is the reason (physical possession) that Quirrel can't find it. Otherwise, his wanting to 'use' it to please his master is no difference logically (and therefore magically) than Harry's desire to save it (for Dumbledore and Flamel). Note the difference in the function of 'use' under this circumstance from the above discussed one. MarEphraim PS only 21 Days to go! From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Fri May 30 07:46:34 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 03:46:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Money Issues Message-ID: <144.127f90a6.2c08665a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58936 Greatlit2003 said: Why did Sirius have so much money in his vault that he can afford to buy the Firebolt for Harry? Somewhere is PoA, Harry thinks that buying that broom will essentially empty his vault, so he refrains from purchasing it. Sirius has not worked for 12 years. Like James Potter, did he too come from a rich family? Nic says: It could of been that Harry was exaggerating the thought to himself, and if you look at it from his point of view, it would be cleaning it out considering he needed the money for another 4 years at least AND he has a fine broom already. Yes I think a Firebolt is very expensive, but not that expensive as Harry suggests, remember that Harry didn't know the price and that it said on the tag that the price can be discussed inside. No one said that James and Lily came from rich families, they made their own money from their jobs (is yet to be soon what their jobs were) and of course, Sirius had a job too before he got arrested. Whilst he is on the run, he doesnt need his money that he made so why not spoil your God son? We all know that Sirius and James were powerful wizards and that they were smart so they both would of got a decent job. What I do not understand is HOW Sirius got to his vault and HOW he just strolled into a store to get one. I think there was an answer for this but I don't remember. He may of got someone to do it for him but he has no allies what so ever, especially before Harry found out he was innocent. Greatlit2003 also said: Why does Percy have brand-new dress robes for the Yule Ball? Because he is earning money? Why can't he buy stuff for his siblings? Nic says: Well, because he has a job. A good one at that. He is making a living of himself. He has to save up like any other person to get a house etc. You dont see Bill or Charlie sending their earnings over to their siblings because they need it themselves. I don't ive my money to my brothers?! I know you might think that Percy is selfish (and he is really) but it shouldnt be expected of him to pay out for everyone else. Look at it this way, Mrs Weasley no longer has to buy anything for Percy, so thats 3 of her kids she no longer has to pay for. I think thats how it is with all families. GreatLit2003 said: Are Lupin's clothes and suitcase tattered because he rips them apart each month, or because he cannot afford to buy new things since he cannot find employment? Nic says: If Lupin has access to his clothes and suitcase while he is a wolf I don't think they would just be tattered, they would be destroyed. They are tattered because he can't afford anything. That is what is strongly hinted when he is being describe, and remember when Malfoy walked in and he gave a look of disdain towards the sleeping Lupin (on the train) because he obviously wasn't well off. GreatLit2003: Why doesn't Mrs. Weasley work outside of the home? No offense meant to homemakers, but since she is a witch, and we saw in GoF how easy it was for her to prepare dinner and clean up, she probably doesn't do much around the house. Just waves her wand, and the dishes are cleaned and dinner is set for two. The kids are all away from home 10 months out of the year. Nic says: She knits clothes, she does the shopping, she does the garden, but still this could all be done even if you work. Maybe she doesnt want to, maybe she is not able to, maybe she already makes money in the home, maybe Arthur wishes her not to. Remember that the wizarding world are stuck in 19th century. The woman always stays at home while the man goes out to work for the family. Although I strongly expect that Lily had a job! There could be a number of reasons, or there could be no reasons. Maybe JK just wanted to give an image of her as a loving model Mother - The mother that Harry never had. But ultimitely, I do not have an answer, only speculations. Loadsa love Nic xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 30 09:30:03 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:30:03 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question - when does something think for itself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58937 Mark: > > But I'll throw another question out along these same lines: What > happened when Krum turned the stone into a Dog? Obviously it was > enough of a dog to distract the dragon (for a moment), but it didn't > have the "mind of a rock". It was very "dog like". For one thing, Cedric was the one turning stone into dog - Krum did something to the Dragon's eyes. But that action... Well, let's take another matter: "never trust anything that can think for itself unless you can see where it keeps it's brain" - I suppose this stone-dog calls for something that can't think for itself - unlike the Diary!Riddle. I suppose talking mirrors, Marauder's Map etc. don't, either... (any more than the chocolate frog is real...) And I agree on i.e. Malfoy keeping his human mind when transfigured. McGonagall tells Moody that "We don't use transfiguration as punishment" - though, obviously, some others(Ministry?) do. It'd not be much of a punishment if their mind turned to match the animal, would it? Rat doesn't dislike being a rat, after all... -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 30 10:14:37 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:14:37 -0000 Subject: Underage Magic (was: Petunia is a *Squib*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58938 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celyse218" wrote: > > > But if Lily was "turning teacups into rats", she would be violating > > the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery, by > > doing magic outside of Hogwarts (CoS ch 2). So either she didn't > > really do any magic and Petunia was just making that up, or Lily > > somehow got away with it? Any thoughts? Thanks all and sorry if > > this has been dealt with earlier, I'm still quite the newbie! : ) Well, Lily might have done it - to practise for school. Then again, she might have used Muggle charlatanism, not real magic... rat being under the teacup, which she then hid somewhere (a magical object bigger from inside helping her a bit here). Only Petunia realised what she was _really_ doing... Hmm... Maybe Harry'll find his mother's muggle-magic books & items somewhere? And perhaps some letters from her in another deparment of a 7-lock trunk - or a key to a vault where they are - along with family album about baby Harry and things like that? -- Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 30 09:10:49 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:10:49 -0000 Subject: Poltergeist vs. Ghost (was 20 ghosts) In-Reply-To: <15a.1fc60cec.2c07d896@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58939 Could Poltergeist be ghost of a house(school)-elf? The other ghosts were humans... -- Finwitch From spfrss at libero.it Fri May 30 10:10:46 2003 From: spfrss at libero.it (Mauro Rossini) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:10:46 -0000 Subject: Murder she wrote... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58940 Hope Hermione will be alive and reading thru book 7 and past, she's the character that made me fall in love with Potterverse. Live long and prosper (to you all and Miss Granger) Mauro > > Amy wrote: > > Hermione Granger ? Well if she does die it is going to be through > > the incompetence of forgetting she's a witch. Even if she doesn't > > die she is probably going to be seriously wounded in the same > > reasoning. > > Greicy wrote: > Hermione's going to die a horrible death and at the hands of Lucius > because we all know how much he loves Mudbloods. > > From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 30 11:15:10 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:15:10 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58941 Pippin: > > **** > > Lupin sounds rather solicitous of the boggart here. It seems odd > > to me. If the critters are dangerous, why risk keeping it in the > > office between lessons? If they aren't really so bad, why did he > > kill the other one? It sounds a bit callous. You could be right > > about the grindylow...but then why not reveal its fate? > > > > Pippin > > who doesn't like wasps either > > Annemehr: > Aw, man! > > I forgot about that part. > > And Lupin calls the Bogart "him" instead of "it," too. > > Alright, I started off tongue-in-cheek for this part (but not the > grindylow part, except for Harry stunning it). But now this is > getting serious. > > And I don't have much of an answer, except that a boggart is a "dark > creature." But, can dark creatures even be culpable for that, as if > they could help it? Lupin's attitude would seem to fit with other > things we know of the WW though, such as hurling gnomes out of > gardens, transfiguring hedgehogs into pincushions -- and distrusting > werewolves! So, maybe Lupin is nice to them until he finishes them > off, er, humanely? I don't make the wasps suffer, either... Lupin needed the Boggart for Harry to practice. It would make sense that he would want to keep the thing happy. On page 175, Lupin talks about being lucky to find another one, so he wants to essentially keep the thing docile. Darrin -- Boggart! Hee! Just a funny sounding name. From linlou43 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 11:30:25 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:30:25 -0000 Subject: Money Issues In-Reply-To: <144.127f90a6.2c08665a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58942 Nic says: > No one said that James and Lily came from rich families, they made their own > money from their jobs (is yet to be soon what their jobs were) and of course, > Sirius had a job too before he got arrested. Whilst he is on the run, he > doesnt need his money that he made so why not spoil your God son? We all know > that Sirius and James were powerful wizards and that they were smart so they both > would of got a decent job. Me(Linda): According to JKR, James inherited "plenty of money" and therefore did not need to rely on his choice of profession to support him. (AOL chat) Nic continued: > What I do not understand is HOW Sirius got to his vault and HOW he just > strolled into a store to get one. I think there was an answer for this but I don't > remember. He may of got someone to do it for him but he has no allies what > so ever, especially before Harry found out he was innocent. Linda again: As far as how Sirius got the money out of the vault, I always thought it must have been some kind of automatic withdrawel sytem, working along the same lines as writing a check. However don't ask me details as I haven't developed the thoght that far. Regarding the actual purchase being made I belief that he told Harry that Crookshanks took the older to the owl post for him. I'm at work and don't have my books and I don't remember the exact quote. -Linda From tammy at mauswerks.net Fri May 30 11:46:14 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:46:14 -0400 Subject: JKR's treatment of details (was: Some Lupin questions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ED70C46.17620.7C4B39D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 58943 On 30 May 2003 at 5:49, annemehr wrote: > As for revealing the fate of the grindylow, what do you want -- a > laundry list of what happened to *all* the dark creatures? He had a > grindylow *tank* because the grindylow needed water to live in while > it was in the castle. The kids didn't notice any tank on the train, > though. Would they, or did he just pick it up in Hogsmeade? Did JKR > mention the tank because it's significant, or does she throw in some > insignificant details to help mask the significant ones? To which, I (tammy) say: Well, of course she throws in insignificant details throughout the books. If she didn't, if she only gave us significant, important details, we would know things right away. "Ahah! This tank is SIGNIFICANT, or she wouldn't have mentioned it!" "Ahah! The Fizzing Whizbees are SIGNIFICANT, or she wouldn't have mentioned them!" "Ahah! The boggart being in a log is SIGNIFICANT, or she wouldn't have mentioned it!" Just imagine how BORING that would quickly become. If we didn't have slews of insignificant details peppered with significant ones, we wouldn't be able to formulate our beloved theories, as there wouldn't be any ambiguities or mysteries or clues to glean from the details. She'd have been just telling us things straight out. I, for one, am quite in love with the insignificant details she puts into her world. :) *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri May 30 12:37:59 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:37:59 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Gryffindor Keeper Issues (Was TBAY:SHIP-speak) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58944 "Oh, dear," Serena sighed, "I think you've misunderstood my theory." Portia, Cindy, and Derannimer stare at her expectantly. "Well, the theory doesn't depend so much on Ron's Qudditch skills. I think that has been debated ad naseum. Though if you must know my thoughts on the matter, I tend to agree with you Portia." Portia gets a big grin on her face. "But that's beside the point," Serena continues, "The point of my theory is that Harry isn't on team, if only for a game. Maybe Snape 'arranges' some sort of academic suspension for him or something to try and give Slytherin an advantage. So he has to sit and watch on the sidelines. It reverses their roles for a bit. Then if you stretch it a bit and Ron rubs the situation in Harry's face, you get another rift like the one in GoF." "I don't know," Cindy says, "That still seems rather far fetched." "Of course it does," Serena replies, "I may have a million theories, but very few of them are any good. That's why I rarely bother to defend them." "Then why are you defending this one?" Derannimer asks. "I'm not. I'm clarifying it. I don't want this to turn into another long thread on Ron's Qudditch skills and magical prowess. That wasn't the point and it's been pretty much debated to death." "So maybe you'd like to share one of your good ones with us?" Cindy asks. "I already did. The reverse FITD. It's brilliance lies in the fact that on the surface it looks like a SHIP theory, but really it leads to a possible cause of a really big rift in the trio. If Ron and Hermione get together, and Harry likes Hermione, what effect will have on the trio?" "But FITD has the same sort of possibilities," Derannimer adds. "It does," Serena replies, "But in my mind the Reverse FITD is more cannon based." "Well, like I said, we'll have to think about this," Cindy says. "Of course, take your time. Remember, I like people to think about my theories and debate them!" Serena replies cheerily, "Anyways, I'm off to go have a root beer." "Uh oh," Cindy and Derannimer mutter in unison. From albusthewise at yahoo.com Fri May 30 12:48:07 2003 From: albusthewise at yahoo.com (Albus Dumbledore) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:48:07 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Some changes... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58945 Could I have everyone's attention? The HPfGU Administration Team would like to talk to you, just for a minute. Okay, maybe two or three minutes, but it's important. As you might imagine, running a list of this size is a daunting task. It needs to be accessible to everyone, the posting standards need to be maintained, and the volume needs to be kept to a manageable level. This is presently done by an administrative team of about thirty people, who are listed as "moderators" in the Members section of this list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/members?group=mod&start=1 In the past, this team was divided into three subgroups--list elves, poltergeists, and a small subgroup called, confusingly enough, Moderators. Most of you have met at least one list elf--these are the folks who welcome you to the list, answer your questions, check the messages submitted by the moderated members, etc. Poltergeists perform various technical or administrative tasks, like throwing water balloons and sticking gum into keyholes. The Moderators were a small subgroup of the administrative team who made all the overall policy decisions. However, we have recently come to the collective realization that this sort of hierarchical structure is simply not viable. Following a lengthy discussion and self-evaluation of the entire administrative structure, the Moderator subgroup has been disbanded. Their responsibilities are now shared across the entire team, which is working on reorganizing the administrative infrastructure of the HPfGU community. At the same time, as a result of this difficult and time-consuming process, a number of the Moderators have chosen to step down from the administrative team. Fortunately, most of them remain as members of the HP for Grownups community. The HPfGU Administrative Team is saddened and diminished by this loss. We raise our goblets to the tremendous contributions made by Catherine (catorman), Cindy (cindysphynx), Jim Flanagan (jamesf991), John (queerasjohn), Neil (FlyingFordAnglia), Parker (harpdreamer), and most especially to our Founding Mother, Penny Linsenmayer (plinsenmayer). We express our profound gratitude and appreciation for your work, and hope to live up to your standards of commitment and care, and look forward to discussing OoP with you. Also two of our Geists, Jenny (jenny_ravenclaw) and Jen P (jenp_97), and one of our Elves, Ebony (selah_1977), have chosen to step down from the administration team. To them we give our heartfelt thanks for their hard work and the great spirit they've brought to the HPfGU community. The rest of us remain committed, with your help, to being the best Harry Potter forum on the Web. We are continuing to oversee the daily smooth operation of the various HPfGU lists as well as exploring ways to best restructure how we run HPfGU. We have updated the Humongous Bigfile to reflect these changes, and will continue to refine it until our new structure is firmly in place. Although the process is not yet complete, we would like to assure you that a new administrative structure is rising, phoenix-like, from the ashes of the old and that as soon it is fully fledged, it will spread its wings for all to see. Or, if you prefer, a new administrative structure is rising, Voldemort-like, out of the bones of the old, and that as soon as it is fully clothed and holding its wand, it will press the "Special Notices" mark to summon you all. Either way, we will report back to you as soon as possible to tell you of our progress. Oh, and if you have any questions or comments, please email us at HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com, and one of us will respond. --The HPfGU List Administration Team The members of the team are: Ali (Merry Elf), Amanda (Amandageist), Amy Z (Amygeist, ex- Moderator), Barb (Babsgeist), Carole (Carolegeist), David (Davey Elf), Debbie (Debby Elf), Dicentra Spectabilis (Dicey Elf), Elkins (Elkigeist, ex-Moderator), Eloise (Weezy Elf), Gwendolyn Grace (Gwenny Elf), Heidi (Heidy Elf, currently on maternity leave), Jen F (Jenny Elf), Jim Ferer (ex-Jimmy Elf), Joy (ex-Joysie Elf and Help Desk Diva), Joywitch (Curmudgeon), Judy (Judey Elf), Kelley (Kelley Elf, ex-Moderator), Kimberly (Moony Elf), Luke (Lukey Elf), Marina (Filky Elf), Mary Ann (Dizzy Elf), Michelle (ex-Shelly Elf), Mike (Aberforth's Goat, ex-Moderator), Paul (technoGeist), Pip (Pippy Elf), Pippin (Peppy Elf), Porphyria (Ashey Elf, currently on sabbatical), Saitaina (Saity Elf), Sheryll (Rylly Elf), Simon (ex- Simey Elf, Dr. Branford), Steve Vander Ark (Keeper of the Lexicon), Tabouli (Tooly Elf). From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 30 10:44:36 2003 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:44:36 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58946 Susan: "> when Fred and > George give Harry the Marauder's Map they tell him "Don't bother with > the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last > winter, but it's caved in -- completely blocked." So does that > tunnel connect to the Chamber of Secrets tunnel? And if so, where > else does it lead, because it seems pretty unlikely that F&G have > ever been into the Chamber." Of course not; it requires Parseltongue to get there! On the other hand, maybe that's where they keep their storage and lie to Harry so he won't go there. Mirror of Erised, perhaps, and the twins don't wish Harry to dwell in front of it (Ron might have told them first year). Or it's for real that it's completely blocked. (By Sirius or Lupin putting a new spell&password on it that won't show on the map??) and.. " > I also noticed that when Harry looks at the map for the first time he > sees Dumbledore, Mrs. Norris, and Peeves. Not himself, Fred, and > George. After Fred and George leave he looks at it again and sees > that a figure labeled "Harry Potter" has *appeared* on it. And that > little figure isn't just standing there, doing what Harry is doing, > it's actually showing him what to do next. This seems to indicate > that the map is selective in who it shows, which is probably why Fred > and George never saw Peter Pettigrew on it, but Lupin did. It also > seems to indicate that when someone does show up on the map, the > viewer should pay attention to who it is and what they're doing > (Bartemious Crouch)." Yes, quite... I suppose the map's also loyal to it's makers, and hides them, unless one of them opened the option. Snape saw Lupin because Lupin had opened that option and left the map open (Possibly because of Sirius, but then he saw Pettigrew!)...(Lupin was in hurry and expected Snape to bring him that disgusting potion before he transforms?) So the twins/Harry/Ron/Hermione would NEVER have seen Peter on it? And I think Lupin _had_ been looking for the map in Filch's office - THEY had put it in there on their last day, not Filch or whoever had the position then! -- Finwitch From bard7696 at aol.com Fri May 30 13:51:17 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:51:17 -0000 Subject: Money Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58947 > > Nic continued: > > > What I do not understand is HOW Sirius got to his vault and HOW he > just > > strolled into a store to get one. I think there was an answer for > this but I don't > > remember. He may of got someone to do it for him but he has no > allies what > > so ever, especially before Harry found out he was innocent. > > My guess is that the goblins operate much the same way as the Swiss bankers do. No questions, no IDs, no problems. And if the Ministry came poking around, trying to demand answers, the goblins would tell them to butt out. Darrin From KLMF at aol.com Fri May 30 12:24:42 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (KLMF at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:24:42 EDT Subject: An observation on release date.... Message-ID: <117.2428d9c3.2c08a78a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58948 Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned. It has just occurred to me that the release of OoP happens to fall on the same day as the Summer Solstice. I had already assumed that the day of release (not having kept up with interviews and news re the new book) was chosen as the start of summer break, or as a good midpoint between the CoS movie and the PoA in 2004, or some other logical marketing purpose, but now I can't help but wonder if there's another significance....or am I missing something entirely? Karen F [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maisaura2 at aol.com Fri May 30 14:06:20 2003 From: maisaura2 at aol.com (maisaura2 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:06:20 EDT Subject: A Harry Failure Message-ID: <19c.1556744a.2c08bf5c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58949 DrMM wrote: > While others may disagree, I've always thought that Harry tends to be careless, reckless and just a touch arrogant. >PS/SS: In the first book, Harry & Ron race into the bathroom to fight a troll. They both could have run off to find a teacher and explain what they saw but they rush in and fight it themselves. and > And the thing that has always annoyed me -- knowing the location of the Chamber and after discovering what a completely incompetent person Lockheart was (which he already suspected), he and Ron didn't go ask another teacher for help. DrMM goes on to list other similar examples from the other books, such as Harry sneaking to Hogsmead when there is a killer after him, etc. And Melody wrote: >You mean he is being a pre-teenage boy? How novel. :) [A boy who is never] fully punished for your careless actions and in fact be rewarded for your "rash" behavior and chivalrous acts of insanity, and also have groupies. >> Melody refutes points, point by point, then concludes: <> Still a newbie, this is my second post only. First, in response to Dr. MM's examples of Harry's impetuous, arrogant, and reckless behavior, I mean no disrespect when I say that I think this is precisely Snape's view of it. For those who are among the series' harshest critics, the same charge is leveled-- Harry flagrantly disregards rules that are in place for his safety and that of others. Not only does Harry get away with "it" (whatever "it" may be), he is then rewarded and deemed heroic for his "bloody cheek." Melody took one approach to Harry's defense, and I'll offer another. The first time I read SS/PS, one of my first reactions was similar to Dr. MM: "Why don't they go to Dumbledore?" I had the same reaction with COS, "This is silly! These children see they are in over their heads, why don't they go to Dumbledore?" That refrain stayed with me until my second or third re-read of those two books. But, I think Melody hit on the response in observing, <> Harry probably doesn't seek grown up intervention in part because from his pre-Hogwarts experience, adults are disinterested at best (school teachers, Mrs. Figg ) or at worst, the enemy (Marge, Vernon and Petunia). He's not a confiding sort. Ron and Hermione have had more positive relationships with adults, one assumes, yet they join in Harry's secrecy as well. The conclusion I finally drew was that if **I** as an adult, were faced with these kinds of challenges and problems, I would seek the advice and assistance of others. But would I have done the same thing as a know it all, seen it all, done it all pre-teen or teenager? Probably not. I think JKR is calling upon the very well founded idea that children and teens will seek help amongst themselves, rather than grown ups. The reasons for this mistrust are due, in part, I think just to the secret lives of children and the belief in their own invulnerability and righteousness. I think the idea of children left to their own devices, running rampant and doing all manner of insane things is well founded in literature -- begin with Cat in the Hat, and go from there. Huck, Becky, and Tom's adventures don't always end in a Lord of the Flies-esque kill the piggy sort of debacle, either. Reasons to mistrust adults are also set out in the books. In SS/PS, when things get really dicey, they do try to go Dumbledore. McGonagall rebuffs them, dismisses their concerns, tells them, in essence, they are just being silly children. Her reaction reaffirms their fears in not seeking assistance -- they are belittled. In COS, Harry and Ron believe (it seems) that Dumbledore and the other Professors do trust Lockhart -- Dumbledore did hire him, and don't Harry and Ron see the teachers order Lockhart to the Chamber? From Harry and Ron's point of view, the teachers are either (to paraphrase bluntly) dumb enough to be deluded by Lockhart, or uncaring enough to see he's a fraud and yet send him to rescue Ginny anyway. (There is also, as Melody pointed out, the extreme urgency of the moment in the mind's of Ron and Harry). Phew, one last point. I think that in POA and GoF we begin to see huge developments in Harry's character because he begins to look to others beyond R&H for assistance in his problems and escapades. Going to Lupin for help with the Dementors is a huge step for him, I think. And, he does begin to seek Sirius' help in GoF. Interestingly, it is a charge of arrogant, self-reliance that Barty, Jr. qua Moody lays at Harry's feet. Harry had the key to the 2nd task in his own bedroom, but, as Bart, Jr. points out, Harry was too arrogant to ask for assistance from others. (And maybe too arrogant to ask for the help of a near-Squib like Neville?) Coming back to failure, from Harry's point of view, I think he does feel dogged by failure. Despite Dumbledore's words at the end of POA, Harry does believe he is responsible, in full or in part, for the servant's return to Voldemort, and hence for Voldemort's resurrection. He felt very responsible for Cedric's death -- "I told him to take it" (or similar). In book 5, I would not be at all surprised if we continue to see Harry wrestling with this guilt. T. The Good Mother Lizard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri May 30 15:15:15 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:15:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's successor In-Reply-To: <20030530022413.21993.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58950 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt wrote: > > There's reasons to believe that Snape WOULD be made > headmaster if DD died. > ME: It's not that far of a reach at all really. Snape (like it or not) has a history of taking control in a variety of situations. He's certainly more pro-active than McG. and she's supposed to be the 2nd. In at least one case (the dueling club) there is a pretty good possibility that in addition to just plain chomping at the bit to humiliate Lockhart he was actually playing a very DD-like role, keeping students from blowing themselves apart despite the fact they were being urged on to do just that by their so-called DADA teacher, while appearing to be "part of the fun". He'd probably have to sign some sort of pledge though, promising not to bring back "the old punishments". Poor Filch. How he misses the screamin'. Of course our Slytherin Severus could easily come up with some sort of changeable ink now, couldn't he? Mel From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri May 30 15:17:59 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:17:59 -0000 Subject: Murder she wrote... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mauro Rossini" wrote: > Hope Hermione will be alive and reading thru book 7 and past, > she's the character that made me fall in love with Potterverse. > Me: I'd say Hermione is safe because JK has said that Hermione is pretty much *her*. What author is going to want to kill *herself* off while she's having so much fun? Mel, who dislikes Hermione intensely. From emeleel at juno.com Fri May 30 15:45:23 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:45:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Spying!Snape won't happen Message-ID: <20030530.104524.-677839.5.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58952 On Tue, 27 May 2003 15:33:25 -0500 "Kelly Grosskreutz" writes: > Melanie Ellis wrote: > > > No, I really believe that: > > One too cowardly to return = Karkaroff > > One who has left me forever = Snape > > One faithful servant = Crouch Jr. > > One thing that sort of stood out at me last time I reread GoF. > Voldemort's actual words regarding the second one mentioned is, "One who I > *believe* has left me forever." I find it interesting that he used the word > "believe" in his statement. He didn't come right out and say that he has left > him forever. By saying that he *believes* this person has left him forever, to me, he is > admitting that he is not 100% sure this person has left him, but just that he > is pretty sure he has. It is the wording of this statement that, if > this phrase *does* pertain to Snape, and if his mission *is* to return to > spying on Voldemort, that might just give Snape a slender way back in. You know, I think you're right. And I just realized one reason why Snape may be a teacher at Hogwarts - it gives him a perfect double excuse for everything. If he's at Hogwarts, then if he feels the Dark Mark coming up, or any other hints that Voldie is coming back, he can report immediately to DD. But at the same time, he can tell Voldie that he's there to spy *on* DD. AND since he's at Hogwarts, he cannot Apparate, which gives him plenty of time to gather himself, any information he needs, etc., before taking off to "return" to Voldie. I can see it now, "I wanted to return to you immediately, but since I was at Hogwarts, I had to make my escape and then come find you". I do think that Snape's in for a rough time while trying to convince Voldie that he's sincere. I think he'll be giving plenty of fodder for the Hurt-Comfort crowd, LOL! Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Fri May 30 15:39:32 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:39:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Money Issues Message-ID: <20030530.104524.-677839.4.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58953 On Fri, 30 May 2003 04:49:27 -0000 "greatlit2003" writes: > Are Lupin's clothes and suitcase tattered because he rips them apart > each month, or because he cannot afford to buy new things since he > cannot find employment? I think it's just because he can't find steady work. If he ripped them apart each month, he'd have *new* stuff in between. > Why did Sirius have so much money in his vault that he can afford to > buy the Firebolt for Harry? Somewhere is PoA, Harry thinks that > buying that broom will essentially empty his vault, so he refrains > from purchasing it. Sirius has not worked for 12 years. Like James > Potter, did he too come from a rich family? Well, if Sirius had even a modest amount of money in Gringott's, if the WW has compounding interest like the muggle world, then it would have grown considerably in 12 years of just sitting there and not being touched. > Why does Percy have brand-new dress robes for the Yule Ball? Because > he is earning money? Why can't he buy stuff for his siblings? Yes, Percy is earning a living on his own now, but there is no reason he should be expected to buy things for his siblings. Now, I do hope he is paying his parents *something* for his room and board since he's still living at home. But take it from someone who knows, it's not good to expect a child, even a grown one, to contribute to the household beyond their own room and board, unless absolutely necessary. > This issue has bothered me for a LONG time: Why doesn't Mrs. Weasley > work outside of the home? No offense meant to homemakers, but since > she is a witch, and we saw in GoF how easy it was for her to prepare > dinner and clean up, she probably doesn't do much around the house. > Just waves her wand, and the dishes are cleaned and dinner is set > for two. The kids are all away from home 10 months out of the year. > I apologize if these issues have been discussed before. No idea, but I think that Nic may be right in that she's meant to be the kindly, loving, stay-at-home mother figure that Harry never had. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Fri May 30 15:20:42 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:20:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sympathy for Voldemort? Message-ID: <20030530.104524.-677839.1.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58954 On Thu, 29 May 2003 14:06:35 -0000 "darrin_burnett" writes: > I think he is the worst kind of racist filth and no amount of "wah, > I had a bad childhood" justifies that and I further hope that Harry, > Ron and Hermione take turns killing him a little bit at a time at > the end of book 7. THEN, I hope the dementor makes a Slurpee out of his > soul and 50 unicorns get to gore the hell out of him for him > drinking their blood in PS/SS. > Agreed that Voldemort is a horrible, horrible person. BUT I don't want to see HRH killing him "a little bit at a time" because that's too much like torture and I don't want our heroes doing something bad. There's a big difference between taking vengence through justice and taking justice through torture and other equally bad things. I do think Harry has every right to kill Voldemort as justice for his parents, but I don't want him dragging it out, torturing him, etc. because that would make Harry just as bad as Voldemort. Or nearly, anyway. And Ron and Hermoine certainly don't have any right to torture Voldie. Just my two knuts. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Fri May 30 15:25:48 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:25:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Maturity (was: A Harry Failure) Message-ID: <20030530.104524.-677839.3.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58955 On Thu, 29 May 2003 20:50:04 -0000 "jenny_ravenclaw" writes: > I'm not sure why you think Harry would have ever seriously wanted to > enter the Triwizard Tournament, or that he actively responds to > "prodding" by Ron at all. Actually, I'm not even sure why you think > Ron prods Harry to begin with. Well, off the top of my head, I can think of the Midnight Duel that Ron got Harry involved in. Harry didn't even know what a wizard's duel was, but Ron jumped in and agreed to it and named himself Harry's second before Harry had hardly had time to draw a breath. And I think Ron did some prodding in PoA about Harry sneaking out to Hogsmeade, but I'd have to double-check that. I'm sure there are a couple of other ones, too, but I can't think of them. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From emeleel at juno.com Fri May 30 15:23:13 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:23:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) Message-ID: <20030530.104524.-677839.2.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58956 On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:51:59 -0000 "Ersatz Harry" writes: > While DD might have preferred to keep the Stone hidden, he tried to > ensure that its removal, if it happened, would lead to physical > contact between Harry and whoever Voldemort was piggybacking on, > thereby leading to Voldemort's (temporary) weakening. Perhaps DD > did not know that Quirrell was Voldemort's carrier, but he might have > guessed that Voldemort was glomming on to *someone* who might try > to steal the Stone. Which makes me wonder - why did DD decide it was time to move the stone from Gringott's and then guard it? Maybe I'm just forgetting something, but as I recall, there was zero indication that Voldemort was on the prowl. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From linlou43 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 15:57:27 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:57:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's successor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58957 Tyler wrote: > > > > There's reasons to believe that Snape WOULD be made > > headmaster if DD died. > > Mel added: > It's not that far of a reach at all really. Snape (like it or not) > has a history of taking control in a variety of situations. He's > certainly more pro-active than McG. and she's supposed to be the 2nd. Me(Linda): I can certainly see Snape becoming head master for many different reasons. However, I think this would cause a huge problem in the story line. If you believe Redeemed!Snape, Spy!Snape, or any of the other theories that have Snape being one of the good guys, it complicates things even more for a character that is already extemely complicated. If Snape is, indeed, one of the good guys and also needs to project that he is a DE to LV and company, he would have a near impossible feat to accomplish. He would need to balance the good of the students with a bad guy image in a very public forum. It would be very hard to be publically convincing in both roles I would think. -Linda, who does believe Snape will ultimately proove to be a good guy in one way or another From ambiree at students.bradley.edu Fri May 30 16:02:14 2003 From: ambiree at students.bradley.edu (ambiree at students.bradley.edu) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:02:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Money Issues In-Reply-To: <144.127f90a6.2c08665a@aol.com> References: <144.127f90a6.2c08665a@aol.com> Message-ID: <1054310534.3ed7808629ce6@webmail.bradley.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 58958 > Greatlit2003 said: > Why did Sirius have so much money in his vault that he can afford to > buy the Firebolt for Harry? Sirius has not worked for 12 years. Like > James Potter, did he too come from a rich family? > > Nic says: > It could of been that Harry was exaggerating the thought to himself, and if > you look at it from his point of view, it would be cleaning it out > considering he needed the money for another 4 years at least AND he has a > fine broom already. Yes I think a Firebolt is very expensive, but not that > expensive as Harry suggests, remember that Harry didn't know the price and > that it said on the tag that the price can be discussed inside. > > No one said that James and Lily came from rich families, they made their own > > money from their jobs (is yet to be soon what their jobs were) and of course, > > Sirius had a job too before he got arrested. Whilst he is on the run, he > doesnt need his money that he made so why not spoil your God son? We all > know > that Sirius and James were powerful wizards and that they were smart so they > both > would of got a decent job. > (Linda answered this) > What I do not understand is HOW Sirius got to his vault and HOW he just > strolled into a store to get one. I think there was an answer for this but I > don't > remember. He may of got someone to do it for him but he has no allies what > > so ever, especially before Harry found out he was innocent. (Darrin of the band names answered here) > > Greatlit2003 also said: > Why does Percy have brand-new dress robes for the Yule Ball? Because > he is earning money? Why can't he buy stuff for his siblings? > > Nic says: > Well, because he has a job. A good one at that. He is making a living of > himself. He has to save up like any other person to get a house etc. You > dont > see Bill or Charlie sending their earnings over to their siblings because > they > need it themselves. I don't ive my money to my brothers?! I know you might > > think that Percy is selfish (and he is really) but it shouldnt be expected of > > him to pay out for everyone else. Look at it this way, Mrs Weasley no longer > > has to buy anything for Percy, so thats 3 of her kids she no longer has to > pay > for. I think thats how it is with all families. > okay here's me (Amber) w/ my response: Yes Percy has new robes and a new job, so he paid for them himself most likely. However, the statement about not sharing is totally selfish for a poor family. As we KNoW Percy loves his family (see Gof 2nd task), and he knows their financial situation, he CoULD contribrute to the family finances. Besides he does live at home. Therefore, he eats the food Mrs. Weasley makes, she probably does his laundry as well, and a host of other things that Percy is getting free by not moving out yet....(sorry that's a bit of nerve w/ me, wizarding world and muggle world) > GreatLit2003 said: > Are Lupin's clothes and suitcase tattered because he rips them apart > each month, or because he cannot afford to buy new things since he > cannot find employment? > > Nic says: > If Lupin has access to his clothes and suitcase while he is a wolf I don't > think they would just be tattered, they would be destroyed. They are > tattered > because he can't afford anything. That is what is strongly hinted when he is > > being describe, and remember when Malfoy walked in and he gave a look of > disdain towards the sleeping Lupin (on the train) because he obviously wasn't > well > off. > Amber again, i got the impression, that maybe Lupin has inherited wealth but he is thrifty and unpretenious about appearance....but maybe he is too tired from the monthly transformation to really care about appearances.... > GreatLit2003: > Why doesn't Mrs. Weasley work outside of the home? No offense meant to > homemakers, but since she is a witch, and we saw in GoF how easy it was for > her to > prepare dinner and clean up, she probably doesn't do much around the house. > > Just waves her wand, and the dishes are cleaned and dinner is set for two. > The > kids are all away from home 10 months out of the year. > > Nic says: > She knits clothes, she does the shopping, she does the garden, but still this > > could all be done even if you work. Maybe she doesnt want to, maybe she is > > not able to, maybe she already makes money in the home, maybe Arthur wishes > her > not to. Remember that the wizarding world are stuck in 19th century. The > woman always stays at home while the man goes out to work for the family. > Although I strongly expect that Lily had a job! There could be a number of > > reasons, or there could be no reasons. Maybe JK just wanted to give an image > of her > as a loving model Mother - The mother that Harry never had. But ultimitely, > I > do not have an answer, only speculations. > Mrs. Weasley works plenty hard in the home....she does things we never hear of....but how do we TRULY know she doesn't have a job outside the home? Maybe she does now that they are away....maybe being a thrifty soul, she spends the morning in the vegetable patch, or making Christmas or birthday presents? No, No, No....Mrs. Weasley does enough work. The question SHoULD be, why doesn't Petunia get a job! -- Amber---whose women's studies minor and feminist side are coming out forcefully today....and who must go out and work at one of her three jobs so that she can help pay for the family bills that she is a part of..... ***It's all fun and games 'til I get tickled~~Amber C. Lowery*** From emeleel at juno.com Fri May 30 16:01:41 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:01:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Harry Failure Message-ID: <20030530.110155.-677839.6.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58959 On Fri, 30 May 2003 10:06:20 EDT maisaura2 at aol.com writes: > Harry probably doesn't seek grown up > intervention in part because from his pre-Hogwarts experience, adults are > disinterested at best (school teachers, Mrs. Figg ) or at worst, the enemy > (Marge, Vernon and Petunia). He's not a confiding sort. Ron and Hermione have had > more positive relationships with adults, one assumes, yet they join in > Harry's secrecy as well. I know that I had and still have a hard time asking for help from anyone. I'm *extrememely* independent, and while I think some of it is just in my nature to be so, I think a good part of it also harks back to the fact that I was in foster care for the first 6 months of my life. From what the foster mom told my adoptive mother when they were finally able to take me home, it sounds like all they did was feed me and prop me in front of the the TV. It's hard to create an ability to bond with others when you don't get it early in life, and I think Harry is having the same problems after 10 years of constant emotional abuse from his "family". >Harry had the key to the 2nd task in his own bedroom, but, as Bart, Jr. points out, Harry was too > arrogant to ask for assistance from others. (And maybe too arrogant to ask for the > help of a near-Squib like Neville?) I don't think it was arrogance on Harry's part. He knew that the champions were supposed to work things out for themselves and was trying to live up to the supposed spirit of the tournament. He really struggled with himself about whether or not to tell Cedric about the dragons, and I think it was at least in part because he knew he wasn't supposed to be telling. He didn't know that "cheating" was a long-established custom in the tournament. Even after relaxing about it enough to share the egg's song with Ron and Hermoine, I think he still didn't want to spread the word about it too far, and that's why he didn't ask anyone else for help. I think Crouch Jr's accusation of arrogance was just designed to make Harry feel bad and question himself even more than he already does. Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From oooolya at mail.ru Fri May 30 15:12:49 2003 From: oooolya at mail.ru (zwtyrj) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:12:49 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58960 > Gretlit2003 wrote: > Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left Hogwarts? And I have a better question: "Why didn't Lupin get in touch with Harry BEFORE Hogwarts?" Isn't it logical? Look, Lupin had 3 very best friends and as I imagine him, no one else. Now what to do next? 2 of the friends are dead and another one killed them... If I were him I'd try to communicate with the only memory about the Great Friendship--- Potter child. Ok, at first Dumbledore could stop him from doing that but what was the problem when Harry started studying in Hogwarts? "zwtyrj" From helen at odegard.com Fri May 30 15:47:22 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:47:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Murder she wrote... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c326c2$c2cdbd40$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 58961 I'd say Hermione is safe because JK has said that Hermione is pretty much *her*. What author is going to want to kill *herself* off while she's having so much fun? Mel, who dislikes Hermione intensely. I don't know about that... it is actually pretty common for author avatars to die tragic deaths. It happens all of the time in Mary Sue fanfic. JKR has raised the issue of no one worrying about Hermione and how vulnerable she is a couple of times. No one is really safe. Helen, who loves Hermione and will cry buckets if anything happens to her [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heavenlee_spice at dslextreme.com Fri May 30 16:02:14 2003 From: heavenlee_spice at dslextreme.com (jodi_dgn) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:02:14 -0000 Subject: Dementors kiss Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58962 *Jodi opens the lurkers closet door a crack and peeks out, seeing the way clear she timidly tiptoes over to the list elf's desk and leaves a single sheet of paper befor scurrying back to her corner." During my many reads and re-reads of the books I had always wondered what happened to someone who receives the dementors kiss. We are told they just exist, but not really what happens to them once it happens. On my final re-re-re-re-re (etc) read of POA befor OOTP, this line jumped out at me and made me think..........Lupin is talking to Harry on page 187 of POA(US Paperback Edition) and says.."Get too near a dementor and every happy memory will be sucked out of you. If it can, the dementor will feed on you long enough to reduce you to something like itself...soulless and evil." Soooooooo, this makes me wonder, does someone perhaps become a dementor once they have been kissed by one? Will we see Barty Crouch Jr. back as a dementor in later books? Is it that they turn into something "like" a dementor or actually become one? That was my thought at first, if just the word "soulless" had been used, but when you add "evil" into the mix, it could take on a new meaning. Whatcha think? jodi-who is breathlessly waiting for June 21st. From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Fri May 30 16:26:18 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:26:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some Lupin questions Message-ID: <148.129db40c.2c08e02a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58963 In a message dated 30/05/03 17:17:40 GMT Daylight Time, oooolya at mail.ru writes: > And I have a better question: "Why didn't Lupin get in touch with > Harry BEFORE Hogwarts?" > Isn't it logical? Look, Lupin had 3 very best friends and as I > imagine him, no one else. > Now what to do next? 2 of the friends are dead and another one killed > them... If I were him I'd try to communicate with the only memory > about the Great Friendship--- Potter child. > Ok, at first Dumbledore could stop him from doing that but what was the > problem when Harry started studying in Hogwarts? Someone answered a very logical answer when something like this was mentioned. I forgot who said it - sorry. But someone said that Lupin kept his relationship formal because he was worried about questions they might of come up. When Harry asked questions like 'you knew Sirius?' it says that Lupin got very awkward. Im sure he cares deeply for Harry. Can you imagine getting a letter from somebody saying 'Yea hi, I was a friend of your father at school, lets stay in contact'. I can imagine how stuck Lupin would of been if he tried to write to Harry, and furthermore he wouldnt like to say that he knew his father due to questions Harry might ask so with that in mind, Lupin would have nothing to say in his contact to Harry. Harry would be thinking, 'Who this man, why is talking to me'?. I dont know if that made sense but I can understand fully that Lupin didnt contact him in the first or second year. Look at it from his point of view, if you had a friend who died in lets say early 20's then 10 years later you find out where his son is, would you contact him? I certainly wouldnt feel any need to. Loadsa love Nic xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Fri May 30 16:35:14 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:35:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors kiss Message-ID: <1c3.a52984d.2c08e242@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58964 Jodi said: During my many reads and re-reads of the books I had always wondered what happened to someone who receives the dementors kiss. We are told they just exist, but not really what happens to them once it happens. On my final re-re-re-re-re (etc) read of POA befor OOTP, this line jumped out at me and made me think..........Lupin is talking to Harry on page 187 of POA(US Paperback Edition) and says.."Get too near a dementor and every happy memory will be sucked out of you. If it can, the dementor will feed on you long enough to reduce you to something like itself...soulless and evil." Soooooooo, this makes me wonder, does someone perhaps become a dementor once they have been kissed by one? Will we see Barty Crouch Jr. back as a dementor in later books? Is it that they turn into something "like" a dementor or actually become one? That was my thought at first, if just the word "soulless" had been used, but when you add "evil" into the mix, it could take on a new meaning. Whatcha think? Nic says: IMHO Dementor's Kiss shouldnt even exist... but thats not what its about. I always wondered where Dementor's came from, and I think you could be right. But Lupin says 'something LIKE themselves' he didnt say they will 'become what they are'. I think Lupin said that to give the result description. I just imagine BC Jr. to be this shell that walks around, deterioating. Having said that I think what happens is, that the Dementor Kiss is given, then the victim, over a long period of time slowly turns fully into a dementor. Hmm, what does everyone else think? Loadsa love Nic xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adanaleigh at hotmail.com Fri May 30 16:57:30 2003 From: adanaleigh at hotmail.com (Adana Robinson) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:57:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's successor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58965 >From: Tyler Hewitt >> >Robert the old wrote: > >You did noy carry this thread to its next logical >stage. Who will replace Dumbledor as head of Hogwarts >if he dies? How about Arthur Weasley? > > >ME: >As much as the idea makes me cringe, I think it would >be intersting if Snape were made headmaster. Think of >the possibilities-how it would effect daily life at >Hogwarts, especially Harry, Ron, and Hermione, how no >one is really sure of Snape's loyalties, etc. It would >definately make for interesting reading! > >There's reasons to believe that Snape WOULD be made >headmaster if DD died. DD's replacement is likely to >be someone with a background in education, something >Snape has over Arthur Weasley. In CoS, when Harry goes >into Tom Riddle's diary, he sees Dumbledore as a >professor, so there is an established pattern of >promoting professors to headmaster. Also, with Lucius >Malfoy basically controling the board of directors, >Snape is a shoe-in (assuming Malfoy thinks Snape is >still loyal to Voldemort). This also fits into the parallel somebody drew on another thread, where TR was "headmaster's pet" but had one teacher who did not like him--D-dore, who eventually became headmaster. Harry is kinda "headmaster's pet" but has one teacher who does not like him--Snape. Will he eventually become headmaster? Interesting thought! Then either no one at all believes that Snape is actually trying to save the WW and Harry, because they know his past; or they believe AD's assertion that Snape is a good guy and blindly follow him, when actually he is a bad guy. Either way it could be good plot twists. adanaleigh _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From emeleel at juno.com Fri May 30 17:01:25 2003 From: emeleel at juno.com (Melanie L Ellis) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:01:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Money Issues Message-ID: <20030530.120125.-677839.7.emeleel@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58966 On Fri, 30 May 2003 11:02:14 -0500 ambiree at students.bradley.edu writes: > Yes Percy has new robes and a new job, so he paid for them himself > most likely. However, the statement about not sharing is totally selfish > for a poor family. As we KNoW Percy loves his family (see Gof 2nd task), and > he knows their financial situation, he CoULD contribrute to the family > finances. Besides he does live at home. Therefore, he eats the food Mrs. > Weasley makes, she probably does his laundry as well, and a host of other things > that Percy is getting free by not moving out yet....(sorry that's a bit of nerve > w/ me, wizarding world and muggle world) Just MNSHO, but I don't agree with you that it's selfish. Now, as I said in my response earlier to this question, I do hope that Percy is paying room and board since he's staying at home. That would be the responsible, adult thing to do. But even though his family is poor, they are not *destitute*. They have enough money to get by, and there is no reason in the world that Percy should have to contribute to the family finances in order to bump them up to a better status. He should be using his money for the things that he needs, saving it to get enough to move out on his own, etc. When I left college and started working, I was still living at home and my mom was single. She ended up being self-employed and making very little money and all of a sudden I was the bread winner in the family. I deeply resented it because there was no good reason for me to be the main earner, she was able-bodied. It would be very unfair to Percy to expect him to shoulder any part of the family's financial responsibilities unless Arthur were to be hurt or lose his job for some reason. Sorry - that's a bit of a nerve with me! ;-) Melanie Ellis Alabama Homeschool Message Board http://pub77.ezboard.com/balabamahomeschoolmessageboard ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 30 17:39:30 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:39:30 -0000 Subject: Dementors kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jodi_dgn" wrote: > Soooooooo, this makes me wonder, does someone perhaps become a > dementor once they have been kissed by one? Will we see Barty Crouch > Jr. back as a dementor in later books? Is it that they turn into > something "like" a dementor or actually become one? I have the distinct impression that dementors are a different and specific species of Dark Creature, in line with boggarts, grindylows, and the like, but the worst of the bunch, and with greater senses of intention. They are at least apparently employable as Azkaban guards. Ersatz Harry From ersatzharry at yahoo.com Fri May 30 17:43:41 2003 From: ersatzharry at yahoo.com (Ersatz Harry) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:43:41 -0000 Subject: Another potions expert? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58968 Just out of curiosity, who do you suppose is keeping Lupin supplied with his werewolf prevention potion these days? Snape doesn't seem like he'd be that willing to do do without a specific request from Dumbledore, and we hear from Lupin that the potion is a difficult one to make. Does that mean that some other potions expert will emerge somewhere outside Hogwarts? Ersatz Harry From drmm at fuuko.com Fri May 30 17:50:01 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:50:01 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" wrote: > DrMM wrote: > >PS/SS: In the first book, Harry & Ron race into the bathroom to fight > > a troll. They both could have run off to find a teacher and explain > > what they saw but they rush in and fight it themselves. They never > > consider the consequences, which could have been deadly. > > Well they did not run off to fight the troll. They ran off to find > Hermione. They found her and the troll trying to kill her. So > therefore, they saved her life because they did not run off to find > the teachers but dealt with the situation at hand. Frankly, they did > not have the luxury of yelling for help. Hey, that troll made a lot > of noise. You would think McG, Snape, and Quirrel would have followed > the sound of breaking porcelain and pipes. So that time, Harry and > Ron were just being a good friend because it was Ron's fault that she > was there in the first place. But they could have told a teacher or Percy that they didn't think Hermione heard the announcement. Instead, they rushed off to find her, not considering that they might run into the troll. Yes, running in to save Hermione was brave & noble and all that ... It was also incredibly dangerous and they certainly didn't consider THAT when they decided to go after Hermione. > >In a somewhat more iffy example, Harry rushes off to try and stop > >Quirrel *by himself*. While he recognizes the danger, he at least > >thinks he at least has a chance to stop him, which has always seemed > >a bit arrogant to me. As we find out when we read the story, if > >Hermione hadn't been there, Harry would have been stopped at the > >second challenge. > > The point I am trying to make is that Harry was slightly pushed to go > after that stone and mirror. He was shown how the mirror worked by > Dumbledore himself, which was very fishy thing to do. I mean, what > reason did Dumbledore have to do that? If he wanted Harry to see his > parents, he could have shown him that picture book like he had Hagrid > give him in the end. I know, it does not *say* Dumbledore influenced > that gift, but I like to think he did. But that is a guess not fact.>> Yeah, I know Harry was pushed to go try and get the stone, which is why I said it was an iffy example. I'm of the theory that Dumbledore knew all along what Harry & Co. were doing and he wanted them to go after Quirrel. However, Harry made his own choices. He didn't have to go after Quirrel. Yes, going after Quirrel was brave but it was still a rash decision, that could have caused his death (and very nearly did). > > He rushes off to the Forbidden > > Forest, knowing full well how dangerous it is and nearly dies. > > Well, Hagrid did tell him to do it. Harry is anything if not > obedient. And Harry did have detention in the forest where he was > rescued by a centaur the last time. Harry obedient? I hope you're being sarcastic there ... Like I said, he knows how dangerous it is. Hagrid may have told him to go but that doesn't mean he had to. And being rescued by a centaur was luck. He saw how angry the other centaur was, so he should know better than to be expect to be rescued again if he's in trouble. << Well yes that was stupid, but then again like with Hermione. Harry > and Ron thought Ginny was dead or dying down there. They were pressed > for time. Harry has gotten more confident in his abilities and knows > now it is a snake. He had luck with the last two snakes he had > encountered in controlling them. And now it was his fellow > Gryffindor, best friend's sister, and his own cute crusher that was > down there. Harry's mind is focused when it is on a mission, and so > far has *any* teacher really helped him defeat a bad guy? Not by > *Harry's* knowledge. That happens without his knowledge.>> They were pressed for time? Well, they took a few minutes to go get Lockheart, so it wouldn't have taken much extra time to get another teacher. Yes, Harry has been able to slightly control two snakes but this is not just any snake -- this is a Basalisk. He also knows that the Basalisk is being controlled by the Heir of Slytherin, so he should know that he won't be able to control *this* snake. But he goes in anyway. And would Harry have to defeat the bad guys if he let someone else have a chance? :) > > PoA: There are a lot of things that happen here. > >He runs off to Hogsmeade, knowing that a killer is after his life. > > And Harry was scolded for that by Lupin. That was rash. I will not > disagree. But Harry was properly told not to do that again. Yes, Harry was scolded for that by Lupin. But Lupin is the only person that reprimands him that he's actually listened to. If McGonagall had caught him instead of Snape, I don't think Harry would have "gotten it." And I'm not fully sure that Harry learned his lesson. After all, he still rushes after Ron into a dangerous situation later. > >When Ron is attacked, he again rushes straight into a dangerous > >situation rather than asking for help. > > Again. Did he have time to? *shrug* I think so. True, if Sirius had been a Death Eater, Ron probably would have died ... but if Sirius had been a Death Eater both Harry and Hermione would have died in the Shack as well. If they had decided to go for help, then only Ron would have died. Harry rushes into situations without thinking of the danger. It's a very noble and self-sacrificing (and Gryffindor) trait, but not always the best one. Harry needs to learn to restrain this instinct. After all, he who runs away lives to fight another day. :) > >If Sirius Black *had* been a > >Death Eater, he would have been dead the minute he entered the door. > >And while we don't know this for sure, if Harry had gone to the > >school for help, someone else could have seen Peter and Sirius would > >have been proven innocent. > > Eh. Not necessarily. Harry was whisked away to a whole slew of DE's > and they did not kill him. They toyed with him, but did not kill him > instantly. And Peter would not have come out if someone else had > found Black and *Scabbers*. Why would Peter of transfigured? He was > safe as the rat, and no one would listen to Black's story. They had > not so far in twelve years. Oh, it's possible that Harry would have survived. I just don't think it's likely. Sirius lured Harry to the Shrieking Shack to kill him. Voldemort lured Harry to steal his blood, to toy with him and THEN to kill him. I don't think Sirius would have wasted any time trying to play games and taunt Harry the way Voldemort does. He's certainly about to kill Peter first and explain later. Peter wouldn't have transformed willingly but Dumbledore *would* have at least listened to Sirius -- and then he could force Peter to transform the way Lupin and Sirius did. All Sirius would need to do is keep a good grip on him, while explaining this to Dumbledore. I don't think Dumbledore ever talked to Sirius before he went to Azkaban. He certainly listens to Sirius after he's captured. > > In all of these books, Harry has survived out of luck and with the > > help of his friends. > > Hehehe. Now, I do not agree with that. It seems very clear to me > that Harry is supported with a greatly hidden understructure of help > even without MD there. Dumbledore is investing much into Harry's > education and protecting through Snape, Lupin, and all. Dumbledore > singled Harry out to show him the mirror's workings in PS/SS. He sent > the hat and Fawkes in CoS and told Harry in Hagrid's hut that "help" > would come if he asked for it. PoA is highly debated here, but I > firmly believe Dumbledore had a hand in making sure Harry was safe and > survived. And in GoF, well the whole crew was making sure Harry got > through the tasks. And he did, but it was that last moment of Task > three that changed everything. but once again, there is too much to > go into here about my views on Harry's hidden structure making sure he > stays alive and successful. > Well, it's possible that Dumbledore is keeping Harry safe from his own rash (& sometimes stupid) decisions. However, that would be included in my "friends" explination. And Dumbledore is human -- if he had been any later in PS/SS he admits Harry would have died. So, Harry could still have died. I still think a lot of Harry's survival is luck, rather than any special talent. > I still am not sure Harry's failure will cause a death directly. It > seems so harsh and debilitating, but it would help him grow and focus > more that is for sure?if it does not kill his spirit. I think the > failure will happen in book five, have him dealing with it in book > six, and then out to conquer all in book seven. It would be a nice > arch of a story I think but probably very typical. But then again, if > you look at life, it can be. After all, it is how he conquers which > makes the story different. > I think that a death would be the most effective kind of failure. Cedric's death in GoF is not enough. Cedric died because he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time; this may tell Harry how little Voldemort values life but it won't teach Harry responsibility. A death that he is directly responsible for will be far more effective. A loss at Quidditch would be too trivial to teach a major lesson; besides, Harry already lost to Cedric in PoA. There's a quote from Terry Pratchett I think is appropriate. "You mean you need cool calculating bastards to save the world, do you?" (Thief of Time). This is something Harry needs to learn. :) DrMM (who was reading Fantastic Posts earlier and was astonished to find how many of her messages from 2 years ago were included) From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Fri May 30 17:51:37 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:51:37 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Gryffindor Keeper Issues (WAS: TBAY/SHIP: SHIP-Speak) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58970 A menacing sky loomed over the choppy waters. On board the mighty Big Bang, several figures were conversing. "Ron IS wonderful," sniffed a somewhat disheveled Portia, " but that's not the point. The point is, I don't think the tension over the Gryffindor Keeper is going to come because Ron is bad at it. I think it'll be because Quidditch is such an excellent opportunity for Ron to get *hurt*. What if a rogue Bludger starts following *Ron* around? What if the Slytherin Chasers start banging into him a little more than usual when they fly up to the hoops? It would crush the Muggle-loving Weasleys if Ron were seriously injured. And it would thoroughly devastate Harry, and everyone knows it because of the Second Task. Quidditch would be the perfect opportunity to do it, since everyone's outside the walls of the castle, and it's a dangerous sport by definition. You could make it look like an 'accident' to those who don't look too closely at it." Suddenly, a clunk... clunk... clunk was heard. A hatch opened, and a bearded, peg-legged man emerged. "Hello, my name is Barnacle Bill. I'm a sailor. I could not help overhearing your discussion, and I want to put in my two knuts, if I may." "Go on," said a bemused Cindy. "Well, what if Harry's problems due to Ron being a Keeper were not coming from Ron personally, but from the rest of the team, or even from Gryffindor House as a whole? What if, during the trials for Keeper, another person was as good as, or better than, Ron, but Harry (as Captain) was biased? I am not saying that Ron was *bad*, but that someone else was *better*. Harry may have honestly believed that Ron was the best, or at least co-best, player, but was somewhat blinded due to his friendship. I cannot believe that the rest of Gryffindor House would simply let the matter slide, especially if Ron costs them a match." Serena stared at the man. "Do you have any ideas about who your hypothetical better Keeper would be?" Barnacle Bill (the sailor) scratched his head. "Nothing for certain. It would be interesting if that person were Ron's sister Ginny, now wouldn't it? Nothing like a little inter-family conflict to liven things up, eh?" Cindy pursed her lips. "That sounds rather far-fetched to me. However, there are possibilities here. The books do seem to alternate between the members of Gryffindor House shunning Harry, and the members of the other three Houses doing the same. In Book One, the members of Gryffindor House shunned him (and Hermione and Neville) for losing 150 points; in Book Two, the other three Houses thought that he was the Heir of Sytherin. Book Three doesn't really follow that patten, but both of his serious fights were with a fellow Gryffindor, and of course in Book Four, there was the whole Triwizard Champion debacle, with students from the other three Houses wearing those blasted 'Potter Stinks' badges. So it would be not unexpected if, in Book Five, Harry's primary (other than Malfoy) Hogwarts conflict was with Gryffindor. And the source of this counflict may well be Harry's choice of Ron as Keeper." Barnicle Bill nodded his shaggy head. "Exactly. Well, I have to go. Some scurvy dog has upset the desert cart. I have to bake 400 eclaires by four bells." And with that he was off. Bill From drmm at fuuko.com Fri May 30 17:57:59 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:57:59 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure (was: Re: Harry's Sacrifice. / Sorting and Character Traits) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr: > I really just see his habit of not seeking adult help as a major > consequence of the way he was raised by the Dursleys. This is not > arrogance at all to me, but that's just my opinion. It's not an > absolute with him, either. HRH tried to tell Professor McGonagall > about someone being after the philosopher's stone, and were rebuffed. > McGonagall wouldn't even listen to their very good reasons why they > thought the stone was truly in danger. (I know you did bring this up, > but I think it was a stronger point than you wrote it). Harry and Ron > were on their way to the staffroom to tell what they had figured out > about the Chamber of Secrets when the staff meeting about Ginny > occurred. Here their common sense did desert them as they first > merely went back to their common room, and then went for help to the > one teacher they believed to be useless (even though they did think he > was at least going to try to find Ginny). In PoA, he didn't try to do > much of anything except sneak into Hogsmeade. This *is* arrogance on > his part, I agree, but I think Lupin's words to him after he was > caught made a lasting impression. When Padfoot dragged Ron into the > Whomping Willow, I am not surprised he and Hermione didn't go for help > -- they were afraid there wasn't time ("Harry, -- we've got to go for > help --" Hermione gasped; she was bleeding too; the Willow had cut her > across the shoulder. "No! That thing's big enough to eat him; we > haven't got time--" from PoA, ch.17). Okay, better maybe if Harry > went into the Willow and Hermione went for help, but I suppose they > figured they'd need both of them against the dog. > It's not surprising that they didn't go for help but it was an impulse decision and I think it would have been a better idea to go for help, as Hermione suggested. As I said, if they had, Sirius could have been set free. > You're not alone. Personally, I think that if Harry had just outright > lost a Quidditch match to a better seeker, we might not even be > discussing this! ;-) Ahhh, but he did lose a Quidditch match to Cedric. However, a failure at Quidditch would be quite trivial ... a death would make a bigger impression. From drmm at fuuko.com Fri May 30 18:25:15 2003 From: drmm at fuuko.com (drmm_fuuko) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:25:15 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure In-Reply-To: <19c.1556744a.2c08bf5c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, maisaura2 at a... wrote: << First, in response to Dr. MM's examples of Harry's impetuous, arrogant, and > reckless behavior, I mean no disrespect when I say that I think this is > precisely Snape's view of it. For those who are among the series' harshest critics, > the same charge is leveled-- Harry flagrantly disregards rules that are in > place for his safety and that of others. Not only does Harry get away with "it" > (whatever "it" may be), he is then rewarded and deemed heroic for his "bloody cheek.">> Heheh, well, it's no secret that Snape is my favorite character. I've always thought that Snape has a point, even if he doesn't make it in the best way (and is way too harsh about it) ... << The conclusion I finally drew was that if **I** as an adult, were faced with > these kinds of challenges and problems, I would seek the advice and assistance > of others. But would I have done the same thing as a know it all, seen it > all, done it all pre-teen or teenager? Probably not. I think JKR is calling > upon the very well founded idea that children and teens will seek help amongst > themselves, rather than grown ups.>>> I agree and I think that's precisely why Harry needs to fail. A major theme throughout all four books so far is growing up. Growing up means that we learn to ask for advice or help when we need it, rather than assuming that we can handle it ourselves. Although he's more willing to do so in GoF, Harry is still hesitant to ask for help from adults (he doesn't want to ask Dumbledore about his dreams) and he's even reluctant to ask for advice from his friends (Neville and the Tournament). A failure that Harry is directly responsible for will teach him that he is not invincible; he cannot do everything himself. Once he learns that, he will realize that he sometimes *has* to ask for help and advice. And I still think that since Harry is not directly responsible for Cedric's death, it will take another death for him to understand this. And I've always thought that Harry's actions are understandable and the books would be very boring and much, much shorter if he acted any different. I just think that Harry does need to learn a bit of caution and realize that he CAN fail. DrMM From grosich at nyc.rr.com Fri May 30 19:13:40 2003 From: grosich at nyc.rr.com (rosich10002) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:13:40 -0000 Subject: Another potions expert? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > Just out of curiosity, who do you suppose is keeping Lupin supplied > with his werewolf prevention potion these days? Snape doesn't seem > like he'd be that willing to do do without a specific request from > Dumbledore, and we hear from Lupin that the potion is a difficult one > to make. Does that mean that some other potions expert will emerge > somewhere outside Hogwarts? > > Ersatz Harry Hmmm. While it would be rather interesting to see a bit of Potions "competition" as it were, I've just thought that Lupin has to do without. He doesn't seem to have a lot of money. So even if he did know someone else who could do it, he probably couldn't afford it. Unless there is a wizarding national health system aside from institutionalization at St. Mungo's... Gina From runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 19:33:50 2003 From: runningbecky2002 at yahoo.com (Becky Walkden) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Spying!Snape won't happen In-Reply-To: <20030530.104524.-677839.5.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: <20030530193350.46299.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58974 > Melanie Ellis wrote: > One thing that sort of stood out at me last time I reread GoF. > Voldemort's actual words regarding the second one mentioned is, "One who I > *believe* has left me forever." I find it interesting that he used the word > "believe" in his statement. He didn't come right out and say that he has left > him forever. By saying that he *believes* this person has left him forever, to me, he is > admitting that he is not 100% sure this person has left him, but just that he > is pretty sure he has. It is the wording of this statement that, if > this phrase *does* pertain to Snape, and if his mission *is* to return to > spying on Voldemort, that might just give Snape a slender way back in. ME: There's another angle to that statement "I believe has left me forever." While Voldemort is definitely totally evil, he is not stupid. There is an indication there that Voldemort recognizes that this person had a reason, totally legitimate at least in this person's mind for leaving him and that Voldemort is at least willing to consider accepting him back. Assuming it is Snape he's referring to, it brings back the long speculated question as to WHY Snape left him. I think we've covered all the theories already pretty thoroughly but it will be interesting to see which one (if any) holds water. Huggs Becky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Fri May 30 19:39:12 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:39:12 -0500 Subject: Was Tom Riddle a "Bad Seed?" (SPOILERS for book, play and movie _Bad Seed_) Message-ID: <010901c326e3$2629a140$994a0043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 58975 Back in the middle '50s, there was a small controversy about William March's book _The Bad Seed._ It was the first of the "evil child" genre---I could make a case that without it, _The Exorcist,_ _The Omen_ and _The Good Son_ wouldn't have had as easy a time seeing the light of day. Cutting to the chase, the main character in the book, a little girl named Rhoda Penmark, is very like what we've seen of Tom Riddle. She's almost _too_ perfect...neat, quiet, ladylike, and very respectful of her elders, who mostly all adore her. However, under it all she's what I would call a sociopath. What she wants, she'll go after, and she has no inhibitions other than Don't Get Caught. And she's more than smart enough to know that almost no adults will suspect her, thanks to her sweet, ladylike exterior. The book's controversial side was not just that a child could be evil, but the idea brought up in the book that (what we'd call) sociopathy was heritable; a Big Revelation (SPOILER HO!) is that the girl's grandmother, who died when her daughter, Rhoda's mother-to-be, was very small, was a serial killer of the "Black Widow" variety. Now---what do we _know_ about Tom Riddle's ancestry? His mum was a witch, and _he says_ that his dad abandoned her for that. But not all witches are nice, not at all---for every Molly Weasley, you've got a Rita Skeeter or a lady-in-the-penseive-scene. What if TR Senior left his wife for darned good reasons, like, maybe, he found out she had Plans for him and his family's money, plans that involved them all taking a long, long dirt nap? It would be incredibly easy for a witch to commit murder and not have either the Muggle or magical authorities notice that anything was wrong, and back in TR Sr.'s day, it would have been even easier, what with the state of forensic medicine being what it was then. Or, for that matter---what makes us think that the "bad seed" inheritance, if that's what we're dealing with, couldn't have come from the _Muggle_ side of TR's ancestry? TR's family weren't apparently too popular with the neighbours, and there seems to have been very little mourning for them when they were unexpectedly found dead. (Of course, this would also have been at the height or end of WWII, and a case could be made that people were already inured to sudden death, but still...) I'd like to see Harry finally figuring out that "knowledge is power," and "To know one's enemy and know oneself is to win a thousand victories and never be defeated," and either burrow into whatever information's available about the Riddles and TR's mum, or delegate studious Hermione to Do What She Does Best. Or, for that matter, ask Professor Dumbledore and others who were with TR at Hogwarts---in the book _The Bad Seed,_ there were warning signs even early on that Rhoda Penmark was not quite what she seemed to be, although they were ignored. From oppen at mycns.net Fri May 30 19:42:14 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:42:14 -0500 Subject: Percy and the Weasleys' finances Message-ID: <010f01c326e3$92d26700$994a0043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 58976 Although it would be _nice_ if Percy were to contribute to the Weasley family finances, what makes you think they'd accept it from him? It's made clear that while they're poor, they're quite proud and unwilling to accept what they'd almost certainly see as charity, whether it's from Harry (who'd split all his Gringotts' gold with them, but knows that they'd never accept it) or their elder sons? For all we know, there's already been Scenes where Percy, Bill or Charlie beg their parents to take some money, only to be told indignantly that "your father's salary is quite sufficient, and I want _you_ saving up for your _own_ household---how am I going to ever be a grandmother if you're pouring so much of your money into this house that you never set up your own?" In the absence of clear evidence one way or another, I'd have to say that Percy should be given the benefit of the doubt. From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 20:06:30 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:06:30 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58977 Gretlit2003 wrote: >>Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left Hogwarts? I had wondered about this before and worried that Lupin was somehow a bad guy because of his lack of contact. But I started thinking and I came up with the idea that Lupin is one of Dumbledore's "sources". Remember Dumbledore had mentioned something like his sources say that Voldemort is in Albania. So I figured after Pettigrew's escape, Lupin resumed his part in the "old crowd" and started spying or whatever it is he does, so he does not have the time or opportunity to keep in touch with Harry. Greicy From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Fri May 30 17:47:51 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:47:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another potions expert? Message-ID: <1cd.aa98d27.2c08f347@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58978 In a message dated 30/05/03 18:45:49 GMT Daylight Time, ersatzharry at yahoo.com writes: > Just out of curiosity, who do you suppose is keeping Lupin supplied > with his werewolf prevention potion these days? Snape doesn't seem > like he'd be that willing to do do without a specific request from > Dumbledore, and we hear from Lupin that the potion is a difficult one > to make. Does that mean that some other potions expert will emerge > somewhere outside Hogwarts? > > Ersatz Harry I dont assume that Lupin still gets that potion. I think he only got it while he was in Hogwarts. But there is no canon to suggest this or suggest otherwise, who knows? Nic xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Fri May 30 18:00:04 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:00:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Successor Message-ID: <66809B18.68010322.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58979 In a message dated 5/30/2003 4:43:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, MarEphraim writes: << however it strikes me that should Dd die McGonigall would probably get the job. Consider that in CoS while in the penseive Harry finds that Dd is the Transfiguration, a position that McG currently holds. Also in CoS, when Dd is suspended McG takes over. In fact, throughout the series, whenever Dd is out of the picture (away, etc.) it is McG who is in charge. Now this could be simply because she is DHM, but ISTM that she is the only choice should Dd join the choir invisible. <> I think you may be right that McGonagall is next in line for the position. This makes sense. But I hold firm that she is a good guy. And while she may not allow as much rule bending as Dumbledore has allowed Harry in the past, she would not cause much trouble for him either. I can see her turning a blind eye to his misbehavings, etc., remembering that Dumbledore would have allowed it, and remembering that Harry *has* managed to save the day a number of times already. :) But because I am unwilling to believe that his successor will be another good guy, that brings to mind something more along the lines of Prince Hamlet's return to Elisnore after his father's death. Hamlet gets back to find that his uncle has taken the throne right out from under him. I think it is possible McGonagall will find herself in a similar situation, should Dumbledore pass away. Perhaps Malfoy will take the position, claiming an interest in his son's education. Or even Snape, as was mentioned eariler by Tyler Hewitt, could get the job. Snape's promotion would make the uneasiness about his true loyalty even more severe (pun intended). And the appointment of someone other than McGonagall, who may be officially next in line, would create an interesting conflict for her as well. Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Fri May 30 18:44:10 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:44:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Transfiguration Question Message-ID: <78CB7067.1456CFC5.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58980 In a message dated 5/29/2003 7:14:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark writes: <> You've got a good point. When Cedric turns the rock into a dog, if we're all right that the essence of the original thing is what governs its actions, then the dog ought to just sit there... like a rock. :) Why doesn't it? Brief Chronicles From grace701 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 20:09:32 2003 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:09:32 -0000 Subject: Murder she wrote... In-Reply-To: <000201c326c2$c2cdbd40$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58981 Mel wrote: >I'd say Hermione is safe because JK has said that Hermione is >pretty much *her*. What author is going to want to kill *herself* >off while she's having so much fun? > > > Mel, who dislikes Hermione intensely. > > > > Helen wrote: >I don't know about that... it is actually pretty common for author >avatars to die tragic deaths. It happens all of the time in Mary Sue >fanfic. JKR has raised the issue of no one worrying about Hermione >and how vulnerable she is a couple of times. No one is really safe. > > > > Helen, who loves Hermione and will cry buckets if anything happens > to her I say Hermione is in as much danger as Harry, and even her parents. Because of those darn articles Rita Skeeter wrote on her, Harry and Krum, Voldemort will use her to get to Harry. Greicy, who loves Hermione dearly and who will also be crying buckets and perhaps even a river.....could someone please pass the tissue! From ecprincess78 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 18:56:14 2003 From: ecprincess78 at yahoo.com (Leah Jamison) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:56:14 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure In-Reply-To: <19c.1556744a.2c08bf5c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58982 > And Melody wrote: >Interestingly, it is a charge of arrogant, self-reliance that Barty, Jr. qua Moody lays at Harry's feet. Harry had the key to the 2nd task in his own bedroom, but, as Bart, Jr. points out, Harry was too arrogant to ask for assistance from others. (And maybe too arrogant to ask for the help of a near-Squib like Neville?) Leah writes: This was not the original intent of the thread, but I would like to discuss the "too arrogant to ask Neville" possibility. I do not think arrogance was a factor when no one asked Neville. Harry didn't ask everyone for help, as was suggested somewhere-["I'd be asking everyone I knew for help"] (I know that's not totally accurate-sorry no canon at the moment). He only asked (correct me if I'm wrong) HR and Sirius. Any other help with the tasks was offered freely. He wouldn't think to ask Neville for help, because he never has before. Leah, who should REALLY be working right now ;-) From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 21:09:36 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:09:36 -0000 Subject: Dangerous Magical Objects (WAS: when does something think for itself?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58983 Finwitch wrote: > Well, let's take another matter: "never trust anything that can > think for itself unless you can see where it keeps it's brain" - I > suppose this stone-dog calls for something that can't think for > itself - unlike the Diary!Riddle. I suppose talking mirrors, > Marauder's Map etc. don't, either... (any more than the chocolate > frog is real...) Now me: I actually do think the Marauder's Map is an object that "thinks for itself." Harry even calls to mind Arthur Weasley's admonition when Fred and George first give it to him. The Map *has* to think for itself - how else would it be able to know that Harry wanted to access the hump-backed witch tunnel but didn't know how to open the entrance? How else would it be able to know that Snape has a large nose and greasy hair? I've actually been giving this a lot of thought lately. The objects that can "think for themselves" IMO include the Sorting Hat, Riddle's diary and the Marauder's Map. We know from canon that the Hogwarts founders put their brains into the Sorting Hat (as the Hat sings: "The founders put some brains in me" GoF, Ch. 12). Perhaps that's what happened with Riddle's diary and the Marauder's Map as well? Perhaps there is some magical way to import your brains into a diary or a map so it will last after you are dead or vaporized? Since JKR has said the Sorting Hat will be taking on an expanded role in future books, I wonder if other objects that think for themselves (such as the Marauder's Map) will as well. Perhaps the Map will be a source of knowledge for Harry about his father? I can only hope. ~Phyllis From linlou43 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 21:52:40 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:52:40 -0000 Subject: Did Harry Exchange Galleons for Pounds? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58984 While re-reading (again) the beginning of SS a thought occured to me that I didn't recall anyone else bringing up. As I am still a relative newbie, I searched the archives to discover whether it had discussed before and found nothing. My thought was this. At some point did Harry convert some of his wizard money to muggle money? It seems to me that he needed a few things from muggle stores and there is no way the Dursley's footed the bill. For example, when did he get his trunk? There is no mention of him buying one while at diagon alley with Hagred and I doubt the Dursley's would have given him even a rotted out one since they refused to help in any way with his preparations for attending Hogwarts. There is no mention in Cos or PoA of what he wears for muggle clothing but is he still wearing Dudley sized clothes under his robes? I would think we would be shown his selfconciousness about it, especially right after his initial arrival at Hogwarts in SS, if he was still wearing clothes that didn't fit. Did he go shopping in London before Hagrid put him on the train back to Surrey? In PoA he has outgrown his robes, does he somehow get some new muggle clothes as well? What about pajamas? There is referance to the fact that he is still wearing Dudley's rejects in GoF but if he did buy some clothes that fit he would probably be smart enough not to wear them at the Dursley's house or they would wonder how he paid for them? He certainly doesn't want them to know about the money his parents left him. I think also, if he was wearing clothes that didn't fit, Draco would have used it to taunt him at some point. What does everyone else think. -Linda, who things the mundane leads to the most interesting questions. From rayheuer3 at aol.com Fri May 30 22:02:49 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:02:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Money Issues Message-ID: <107.237e81ff.2c092f09@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 58985 emeleel at juno.com writes: > Well, if Sirius had even a modest amount of money in Gringott's, if the > WW has compounding interest like the muggle world, then it would have > grown considerably in 12 years of just sitting there and not being > touched. Since there are bank vaults with physical coins, I suspect that the WW banks (if there *is* any bank besides Gingott's) work on the system that their service is storage only. No interest, no paper money, and no checks as we understand them. Under the proper circumstances, however, they will honor a written authorization to "remove money from my vault and pay it to" a specified person. Theoretically, Gringott's has methods of authenticating such a document. All *complete* speculation, of course. As to Percy, I suspect that he would consider dress robes part of his necessary work wardrobe, just as a stock broker might purchase a tuxedo so that he can attend dinner parties. Percy may (or may not) turn over part of his salary to his parents as "rent", or he may be storing up money so that he can move into his own flat, either way the situation seems to satisfy Arthur and Molly, and who else has a say in the matter? Also, IMNSHO, JKR may simply be too unsure of her economics to try to make a point of how wealth and poverty works in the WW. Note that, in the scene where Harry meets Draco Malfoy in PS/SS, they are buying custom-fitted robes, but no mention is made of payment. Are the robes part of the school tuition, or did JKR simply not want to make up a figure for the cost? Arthur and Molly provide the basics of food, clothing, shelter and a "public" education (which means something entirely different in Britain than in the US). They have raised 2 children to the point where they can support themselves independently, 3 more very close to that point, and they still have the resources to play host to occasional guests. They may not be wealthy in terms of finances, but they aren't exactly poor, either. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From innermurk at catlover.com Fri May 30 22:11:20 2003 From: innermurk at catlover.com (innermurk) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:11:20 -0000 Subject: Did Harry Exchange Galleons for Pounds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > > While re-reading (again) the beginning of SS a thought occured to > me that I didn't recall anyone else bringing up. As I am still a > relative newbie, I searched the archives to discover whether it had > discussed before and found nothing. > > My thought was this. At some point did Harry convert some of his > wizard money to muggle money? It seems to me that he needed a few > things from muggle stores and there is no way the Dursley's footed > the bill. For example, when did he get his trunk? There is no > mention of him buying one while at diagon alley with Hagred and I > doubt the Dursley's would have given him even a rotted out one since > they refused to help in any way with his preparations for attending > Hogwarts. I innermurk reply: I always assumed he bought it in Diagon Alley. He got lots of things that we weren't told about. We only really saw him buying his wand and getting measured for his robes. The other things are only mentioned in passing....and I figured he got everything he needed there. Linda continued: There is no mention in Cos or PoA of what he wears for > muggle clothing but is he still wearing Dudley sized clothes under > his robes? I would think we would be shown his selfconciousness > about it, especially right after his initial arrival at Hogwarts in > SS, if he was still wearing clothes that didn't fit. Did he go > shopping in London before Hagrid put him on the train back to Surrey? > In PoA he has outgrown his robes, does he somehow get some new > muggle clothes as well? What about pajamas? There is referance to > the fact that he is still wearing Dudley's rejects in GoF but if he > did buy some clothes that fit he would probably be smart enough not > to wear them at the Dursley's house or they would wonder how he paid > for them? He certainly doesn't want them to know about the money his > parents left him. I think also, if he was wearing clothes that > didn't fit, Draco would have used it to taunt him at some point. > What does everyone else think. I innermurk reply: Actually the books say robes. No mention of muggle clothing except to get onto the platform. The movies show them wearing muggle type clothing underneath their robes, but that is NEVER what I imagined. I always figured the robes were their uniforms. After all, if wearing muggle clothing under robes was something everyone did, why would they have trouble dressing like muggles during the Quidditch world cup? So, I see Harry as having only the baggy Dudley-sized muggle clothing to wear to and from school and during the summer holidays. And his school robes to wear during the year. Although I do wonder why the Dursley's never ask Harry how he affords to go to the school. They might be intimidated by what Hagrid said, but as much as they bully him around, I wouldn't think that they'd hesitate to try and get it out of him during the summer. Even subtracting the muggle clothes, he still has that trunk full of robes, potion ingrediants, spellbooks, parchment, ink, wand, and other things. Not to mention Hedwig. I can only conclude that there is just not enough time to write down everything that happens to Harry, and we have to be content to get what we get. Innermurk From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 30 22:19:22 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:19:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's successor References: Message-ID: <001d01c326f9$868a2b20$0cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58987 > Tyler wrote: > > > > > > There's reasons to believe that Snape WOULD be made > > > headmaster if DD died. > > > > > Mel added: > > > It's not that far of a reach at all really. Snape (like it or not) > > has a history of taking control in a variety of situations. He's > > certainly more pro-active than McG. and she's supposed to be the > 2nd. > > Me(Linda): > I can certainly see Snape becoming head master for many different > reasons. However, I think this would cause a huge problem in the > story line. If you believe Redeemed!Snape, Spy!Snape, or any of the > other theories that have Snape being one of the good guys, it > complicates things even more for a character that is already extemely > complicated. If Snape is, indeed, one of the good guys and also needs > to project that he is a DE to LV and company, he would have a near > impossible feat to accomplish. He would need to balance the good of > the students with a bad guy image in a very public forum. It would be > very hard to be publically convincing in both roles I would think. Kelly: I wouldn't say it would be that difficult for him to continue the balancing act. In many ways, that is exactly what he is doing now as Potions Professor. In this respect, I think he has had over a decade of experience with this balancing act. Yes, it would be more public. Yes, it would be more difficult as he would be completely responsible for the school and there would be no DD to curb him, which would only, in my mind, make him more acceptable to the DE's. Snape has always played more of a bad guy in the light, yet been more of a good guy secretly, at least when it comes to attitude. I hope that last bit made sense. Personally, though, I still think McGonagall would be Headmistress if DD was no longer able to serve, but this speculation on Snape in the role is fascinating. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From ivanova at idcnet.com Fri May 30 22:22:22 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:22:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Harry Exchange Galleons for Pounds? References: Message-ID: <002101c326f9$f1c35b50$0cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 58988 Innermurk wrote: > Although I do wonder why the Dursley's never ask Harry how he affords > to go to the school. They might be intimidated by what Hagrid said, > but as much as they bully him around, I wouldn't think that they'd > hesitate to try and get it out of him during the summer. Even > subtracting the muggle clothes, he still has that trunk full of > robes, potion ingrediants, spellbooks, parchment, ink, wand, and > other things. Not to mention Hedwig. > I can only conclude that there is just not enough time to write down > everything that happens to Harry, and we have to be content to get > what we get. They're probably afraid to ask where he got all of his wizarding things. Couple that with the Dursleys desire to pretend that Harry's wizarding things and, by extension, the wizarding world, don't exist and/or have no part in their world at all. In their mind, it's bad enough the stuff is in the house to begin with. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From bonnie.abrams at cwine.com Fri May 30 22:29:52 2003 From: bonnie.abrams at cwine.com (bonnie.abrams at cwine.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:29:52 -0400 Subject: Bonnie Abrams/Widmer/CWCI is out of the office. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58989 I will be out of the office starting 05/30/2003 and will not return until 06/02/2003. I will respond to your message when I return. From sam2sar at charter.net Fri May 30 22:44:00 2003 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:44:00 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter facts web site Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58990 Hey every one. I found a pretty handy web site that can help in researching everyone's theories. It is http://www.harrypotterfacts.com/ It has short synopsis of each chapter and also references characters, spells, creatures and other thing by book and chapter number. Someone put a lot of work into it and the few things I have looked up are correct. Have fun everyone, Sam I Am From linlou43 at yahoo.com Fri May 30 22:55:55 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:55:55 -0000 Subject: Did Harry Exchange Galleons for Pounds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58991 I , Linda, wrote > > At some point did Harry convert some of his > > wizard money to muggle money? It seems to me that he needed a few > > things from muggle stores and there is no way the Dursley's footed > > the bill. For example, when did he get his trunk? There is no > > mention of him buying one while at diagon alley with Hagred and I > > doubt the Dursley's would have given him even a rotted out one > since > > they refused to help in any way with his preparations for attending > > Hogwarts. > innermurk replied: > I always assumed he bought it in Diagon Alley. He got lots of things > that we weren't told about. We only really saw him buying his wand > and getting measured for his robes. The other things are only > mentioned in passing....and I figured he got everything he needed > there. Linda responds: I just don't see how it could have been done. Another example occured to me. HOw did Harry get back to the Dursley's after his shopping trip with Hagrid? Did Hagrid give him muggle money to take a cab from the train staion? I'm sure the Dursley's didn't meet him off the train. If everything Harry needed was bought in that one trip, how did Harry manage all those packages, plus a huge trunk, plus Hedwig's cage all by himself after Hagrid left him at Paddington station? > Linda continued: > There is no mention in Cos or PoA of what he wears for > > muggle clothing but is he still wearing Dudley sized clothes under > > his robes? I would think we would be shown his selfconciousness > > about it, especially right after his initial arrival at Hogwarts in > > SS, if he was still wearing clothes that didn't fit. Did he go > > shopping in London before Hagrid put him on the train back to > Surrey? > > In PoA he has outgrown his robes, does he somehow get some new > > muggle clothes as well? What about pajamas? There is referance to > > the fact that he is still wearing Dudley's rejects in GoF but if he > > did buy some clothes that fit he would probably be smart enough not > > to wear them at the Dursley's house or they would wonder how he > paid > > for them? He certainly doesn't want them to know about the money > his > > parents left him. I think also, if he was wearing clothes that > > didn't fit, Draco would have used it to taunt him at some point. > > What does everyone else think. > > > I innermurk reply: > > Actually the books say robes. No mention of muggle clothing except to > get onto the platform. The movies show them wearing muggle type > clothing underneath their robes, but that is NEVER what I imagined. I > always figured the robes were their uniforms. > After all, if wearing muggle clothing under robes was something > everyone did, why would they have trouble dressing like muggles > during the Quidditch world cup? > > So, I see Harry as having only the baggy Dudley-sized muggle clothing > to wear to and from school and during the summer holidays. And his > school robes to wear during the year. Linda again: I agree that the robes were the actual uniforms but as drafty as the castle is described as being, I would think they would have something on under them- especially during the winter months- or everyone would have smoke coming out of their ears all the time due to pepper-up potion. We never see Harry tripping over baggy pants when he's running so IMHO he is wearing clothes that fit. Additionally, in many instances, Harry is wearing muggle clothing when he is with the Weasleys(example: The Quidditch world cup) and there is no mentin of embarressment on his part or even any comment from Molly. Even though Molly tries too refrain from saying anything bad about the Dursleys in front of Harry I would think she would try to remedy Harry having ill-fitting, ratty clothes. We simply don't see anything of that nature. In other words, innermurk, I see your point but I still have doubts. -Linda From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri May 30 23:18:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:18:08 -0000 Subject: Dementors kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jodi_dgn" wrote: > ... what happened to someone who receives the dementors kiss. We > are told they just exist, but not really what happens to them once it > happens. ...edited... > Whatcha think? > > jodi-who is breathlessly waiting for June 21st. bboy_mn: Lose of the soul I think is the same as the lose of your basic humanity. So when you are kissed by the Dementor you go from being a human to being a mammal. You are reduced to living on instinct, no logic, few memories, and given the effects of the dementors, a not very happy mammal. You eat, you sleep, you sustain common instinctive survival characteristics, but thats all. You are reduced to being a very sad, pathetic, marginally intelligent, marginally functional 'dog'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Fri May 30 23:34:58 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:34:58 -0000 Subject: Nicolas Flamel and the Philosopher's Stone Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58993 As many of the posters to this group are aware, Nicolas Flamel and his wife Pernelle were real people. Nicolas was one of the most famous alchemists of the age, who, according to legend, did in fact discover the Philosopher's Stone. He was born in 1330. (The date used by the Leaky Cauldron is 1326 - this appears to be a retcon made in order to allow PS/SS to take place during the 1991/92 school year) Every non-HP site I could find says that his birthdate was 1330: http://www.flamelcollege.org/flamel.htm http://seekers.100megs6.com/GatewaytoAlchemy9.htm http://22.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FL/FLAMEL.htm http://www.crystalinks.com/alchemy1.html etc., etc., etc. Hermione discovered the text concerning Flamel soon after the New Year. In the text, we find:[quote]Mr. Flamel, who celebrated his six hundred and sixty-fifth birthday last year...[/quote]I take this to mean that Nicolas had turned 665 in the calendar year just ended, but had not yet turned 666. This would mean that PS/SS takes place in the school year 1995/96, which would fit with the publication date of 1997 for PS/SS, and with the otherwise anachronistic PlayStation belonging to Dudley. As for the Deathday Party, well, I would give it very little weight, as NHN has said at another point that he had not tasted food in 'almost four hundred years' or thereabouts - I do not have the actual quotation in front of me, but it was a lot less than 500 years. We have two inconsistant dates of death for Sir Nick, so I give the KNOWN birthdate of Nicolas Flamel much higher weight. This would give us the following timeline: PS/SS 1995/1996 CoS 1996/1997 PoA 1997/1998 GoF 1998/1999 OotP 1999/2000 Book Six 2000/2001 Book Seven 2001/2002 This would put Tom Riddle's fifth year, when he opened the Chamber of Secrets, in the 1946/1947 school year, a couple of years after Dumbledore had defeated Grindelwald. I already know that this goes against the CoS DVD timeline, which was approved by JKR, but, since that timeline is basically identical to the Leaky Cauldron timeline, I suspect that the DVD timeline was copied from the Leaky Cauldron timeline, and approved by JKR after a cursory examination. I do not think that she paid real attention to the dates, as is illustrated by the Famous Wizards Trading Cards, also approved by JKR, in which NONE of the witches or wizards are shown as living any longer than ordinary Muggles, despite JKR's own statements that magic people live longer (i.e. Dumbledore's 150 years). In another example that JKR was not paying attention to what she approves, she has written that Dumbledore had eaten Bertie Botts Every-Flavour Beans as a youth, but according to the cards that she approved, they were not invented until sometime in the 1950's or 1960s, when Dumbledore was already over 100 years old. Therefore, I do not regard the CoS DVD timeline as canon, even though JKR had approved it. It is inconsistent with the books. Bill From jhlupin at hotmail.com Sat May 31 00:17:07 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:17:07 -0000 Subject: Will the real Lupin please stand up... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58995 > > Gretlit2003 wrote: > > Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left Hogwarts? > > zwtryj replied: > And I have a better question: "Why didn't Lupin get in touch with > Harry BEFORE Hogwarts?" JHL: It is very obvious that Lupin is a hugely important character, and is one of JKR's favorite by her own admission. He does seem to have legitimate concern for Harry, but is clearly holding himself back from letting their relationship develop. Why would this be true if he were one of the very best and most trusted friends of Harry's now deceased parents? The only logical reason is that the *Lupin* we know is not the real Remus Lupin. This is not my theory, and can be found in an style book available in most bookstores (I believe it is something like < The Magical Mysteries of Harry Potter>). The most logical conclusion is that James Potter and Remus Lupin were *switched* by Lily using a oft-referred to but never explained *Switching Spell* as further protection for James against Voldemort. Now that the real Lupin is dead (he died as James Potter), James is trapped in Lupin's werewolf morphing body. He wants to have contact with Harry and protect him, but knows, especially with Voldemort's return to power and attempts at Harry's life, he must remain very cautious. Who better than your *father* to teach you the *patronus* charm? The presence that Harry often feels in the Forbidden Forest could be James/Remus, in stag form, always watching, always ready to reveal himself if truly needed, and in position to act as AD's most guarded spy. Watch for signs of a stag in the upcoming books... I suggest those who may doubt this go back and read PoA assuming this is true. There are many subtle hints to suggest this that appear more obvious when you are on alert for them. This could be adapted to work for a Lily/Remus switch, but I don't like that as much. Too many complicated scenarios would have to be created for the night of Voldemort's attack and how Harry was really protected. It could be that It wasn't really Lily that saved Harry, but Harry himself come back from the future (see all the posts). But when Harry is learning his patronus, pay close attention to Lupin's reactions upon learing that Harry hears his and later, . JHL, sure he has been hit with a very powerful Cunfundus Charm From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 31 00:20:24 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:20:24 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim" wrote: > the Key of Kenney writes: > > > It seems that [snip, snip, snip] Quirrel's deepest desire was to > present the stone to Voldemort; he says so in the book while > commenting on what he sees in the mirror (we all know the books now, > so you really dont need a quote).< > > Mari comments: > > Quirrel couldn't retrieve the Stone because at the time he is > physically being possessed by He Who Must Not be Named. The function > of the term 'use' in the passage is concrete -- You Know Who wishes > to use the Stone to make the Elixer of Life, and he's plastered on > the back of Quirrel's head, thus Quirrel can't find the Stone. Valky (me): Presenting the stone to LV for Quirrel could still be a *use* of its power. In GOF Voldemort describes Quirrel as *ambitious*. I think that the Quirrel wanted the stone for use in his pursuit of his own power beside Voldemort. Also, > Quirrel can't touch Harry (In Canon, I don't recall Quirrel demuring to shake Harry's hand in the Leakey Cauldron as in the film), noting that after the Troll incident You Know Who never again trusted him -- that's when he was taken over. > This is the reason (physical possession) that Quirrel can't find it. Valky (me): Oopsy, you got a couple of mix ups here, Mari :P Quirrel shook Harry's hand in the PS book but he wasn't wearing the turban. LV attached himself to Quirrel when he failed to get the stone from Grigotts. It was Snape that never trusted Quirrel *again* after the Troll incedent, in the movie, in the PS book Snape never trusted Quirrel at all. Otherwise, his wanting to 'use' it to please his master is no > difference logically (and therefore magically) than Harry's desire > to save it (for Dumbledore and Flamel). Note the difference in the > function of 'use' under this circumstance from the above discussed > one. > Valky (me): Yes I see how you have come to this conclusion. But if you consider how Quirrel may have wanted to use it for his own personal gain. The dissimilarity to Harrys quest is obvious. Either way though because your theory is just as credible. > > PS only 20 Days to go! YAY :D! From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 31 00:29:37 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:29:37 -0000 Subject: Sympathy for Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <33.3948fa50.2c075d43@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, CareALotsClouds at a... wrote: > > I don't hate Voldemort, I do, in fact, feel sorry for him. Care a lots, You are not the only one who allows compassion for Tom to come into their thinking. I believe that Dumbledore does too. I posted a few days ago my thoughts on the "Dumbledore gleam" in relation to this matter. Compassion and forgiveness are strong ethos being portrayed in the series. I am sure that DD in is honourable way has the thin hope of a redemption for the great young Tom Riddle in the end. If you need I will reiterate my post here. The Gleam is DDs joy that Love has been taken by Voldemort. Albeit that he has mistakenly believed it was no more than a magical power that Harry possessed and he wanted. The core of it is Love, nonetheless, I believe the love in the protection LV stole from Harry ha a lot more power yet to wield over evil. Just my thoughts Valky From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri May 30 21:23:50 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:23:50 -0000 Subject: Poltergeist vs. Ghost (was 20 ghosts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > Could Poltergeist be ghost of a house(school)-elf? The other ghosts > were humans... > > -- Finwitch Way back when (pre-HP), the mythology was that a poltergeist is not a true 'ghost' (dead person), but an elemental spirit that might take any form or no form, or simply possess a hormone-addled pubescent. --JDR From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri May 30 21:27:18 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:27:18 -0000 Subject: Money Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 58999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > My guess is that the goblins operate much the same way as the Swiss > bankers do. ... > > Goblins of Gringotts = Gnomes of Zurich! JKR, you sly thing, you! > > On Fri, 30 May 2003 11:02:14 -0500 ambiree at s... writes: > > > > ... not sharing is totally selfish for a poor family...> > > > Melanie L Ellis replies: > > ...Just MNSHO, but I don't agree...>>> the Sergeant Majorette says: If Weasley senior can't afford the finer things of wizarding life on his Minister's salary, it's not likely that Percy, on his entry-level salary, can. Besides, as others have pointed out, Charlie and Bill don't. JDR From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri May 30 22:19:32 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:19:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Successor In-Reply-To: <66809B18.68010322.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59000 <<< In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: I think you may be right that McGonagall is next in line for the position. This makes sense....>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: 1. Dumbledore will die before the series does. JKR has so spoken, and anyway, the movie DD died (Richard Harris) 2. McGonagall is next in line, but she's a teacher, not a principal. I don't think she'd be very good, and I love her: couldn't bear to see her falter 3. It can't be Weasley senior or Malfoy senior -- neither is an educator, and didn't Malfoy senior get dumped from the Board of Governors? 4. I like Snape for the job. Plotwise, he'd be good value, having as he does all kinds of interesting baggage. 5. If I'm JKR, I'm thinking Snape is too obvious. Maybe that Weasley cousin isn't an accountant as Ron thinks, but the headmaster of a top- ranked Muggle school -- and a closet wizard... --JDR From paula.russell at lineone.net Fri May 30 22:33:18 2003 From: paula.russell at lineone.net (paulanurse2003) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:33:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's successor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > Tyler wrote: > > > > > > There's reasons to believe that Snape WOULD be made > > > headmaster if DD died. > > > > > Mel added: > > > It's not that far of a reach at all really. Snape (like it or not) > > has a history of taking control in a variety of situations. He's > > certainly more pro-active than McG. and she's supposed to be the > 2nd. Paula (myself) adds: Surely not Snape. If this was the case, in CoS when DD was actually removed by apparently (then) democratic means, Snape would have made his move? McGonagall automatically became deputy head. However, I suppose DD was still actually alive. Perhaps SS would be more aggressive about assuming control of Hogwarts if DD were dead. From paula.russell at lineone.net Fri May 30 22:47:19 2003 From: paula.russell at lineone.net (paulanurse2003) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:47:19 -0000 Subject: Some Lupin questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grace701" wrote: > > Gretlit2003 wrote: > >>Why didn't Lupin stay in contact with Harry after he left Hogwarts? > > I figured after Pettigrew's escape, Lupin resumed his part in the "old crowd" and started spying or whatever it is he does, so he does not have the time or opportunity to keep in touch with Harry. > > Greicy Paula Adds: I agree. Remember too, that DD has yet to reveal to Harry all he knows about the circumstances and events leading to HP parents' deaths. Lupin, we know, is in DD's confidence as one of the 'old crowd' and probably until that time was aware of DD's aim to keep Harry out of the WW's spotlight. Also, being a werewolf he was hardly likely to be 'welcomed' in such an hostile environment as the WW when Harry learned he was a wizard. My only interest is that Lupin, after showing loyalty to James' memory does not contact Harry at all in his fourth year. This, despite rumours and 'signs' being apparent to astute obeservers of the WW that LV was more active. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri May 30 22:49:36 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:49:36 -0000 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: THE POLLS ARE OPEN FOR THE 2003 PICKLED TOAD AWARDS! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59003 There are sixteen (16) polls open at HPfGU-OT Chatter for the various categories for the first annual Pickled Toad awards. Please vote for two entries. Due to technical considerations, your votes for winner and for runner-up will count equally. The polls will close at the end of June. Results will be tallied and winners will be contacted in July. Those winners who attend Nimbus 2003 will receive their statuettes at that time. There is no poll for "Best Filk of 2003" because almost everyone concentrated on the various categories when making their nominations. A second poll of the category winners to be held the first two weeks of July will determine Best Filk of 2003. I would like to thank you all for your ballots and you interest. I particularly want to express my gratitude to Kelley Elf, Caius Marcus Coriolanus, Gail B., Amy Z. and Heidy Tandy. -Haggridd From paula.russell at lineone.net Fri May 30 23:15:16 2003 From: paula.russell at lineone.net (paulanurse2003) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:15:16 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59004 > I agree and I think that's precisely why Harry needs to fail. > > A major theme throughout all four books so far is growing up. Growing up means that we learn to ask for advice or help when we need it,rather than assuming that we can handle it ourselves A failure that Harry is directly responsible for will teach him that > he is not invincible; he cannot do everything himself. Once he learns that, he will realize that he sometimes *has* to ask for help and advice. I just think that Harry does need to learn a bit of > caution and realize that he CAN fail. > > DrMM In reply to DrMM: I agree with the overall sentiment of your statements but I feel that JKR demonstrates so clearly in GoF that Harry is well aware of his limitations. His apprehension and dread of competing in the various tasks of the tournament whilst underage looms through all the chapters more so than his actually undertaking them. Also, the fact that he 'wins' the tournament is clearly moderated by knowledge from others: Hagrid about the dragons; Mad Eye Moody & the summonig charm; Cedric concerning the 2nd clue; Moaning Myrtle in the prefects bathroom; Dobby about the gillyweed; Herm & Ron and the hexes. Let's also remember how desperate he is to ask Sirius' advice (an adult) whilst S appears in the fire in Gryffindor common room. He obviously has no arrogance. It appears his only reluctance is to appear not to cheat. Moreover,it is apparent that JKR never lets Harry succeed in any of the books without having help from others - adult or otherwise. In Philosopher's Stone Harry only makes it through with the bravery and knowledge of Ron and the 'cool' logic of Hermione. Also it acknowledged that DD 'allows' the Trio as much information as may be necessary for them to suceed. In CoS again Hermione is key in providing the knowledge about the Basilisk and DD (an adult) pointedly tells Harry to 'ask for help' should he need it. When Harry does this in the Chamber he has no idea that Fawlkes would come to his aid. Again there is the implicit understanding that DD is somehow aware and therefore supportive of how Harry, Ron & Hermione will act. This theory is carried further in PoA. DD actively informs hermione and Harry what they must do to save Buckbeat & Sirius. Harry is not guilty of arrogance but almost a reactionary approach to the events that befall him. Paula From yellows at aol.com Fri May 30 23:30:36 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:30:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville and Harry (was A Harry Failure) Message-ID: <46AE0124.20143E3E.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59005 In a message dated 5/30/2003 1:56:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Leah writes: <> In GoF (although I don't have it on me at the moment, so I may be a little off), Harry says that he would rather get advice from Ron and Hermione only, because anything more felt too much like cheating. Ludo was still really a stranger to Harry, so he wouldn't take advice from him, either. So I think it's true that Harry wasn't interested in asking for advice from fellow students or anyone at all. But I also see Neville as a pathetic character. He's nearly a squib, and while Harry sticks up for him in public, he has never extended a hand to welcome him in as a close friend. I think this is because Harry, Ron, and Hermione recognize that Neville lacks the skill, guts, and brains to measure up. While they don't dislike him for this, they are aware of his shortcomings and treat him more like a helpless child than an equal. This is why, in my opinion, Harry seems to feel guilty when Dumbledore explains Neville's background. Harry realizes that, in four years, he has never thought to ask about Neville's parents. So, even if Harry hadn't had issues with cheating, I think Neville would be a last resort for advice. Harry rarely thinks of him at all. Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Sat May 31 00:06:20 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:06:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nauseous vs. Nauseated Message-ID: <46B2E994.723FD5EE.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59006 As I was thumbing through GoF last night, I really hoped that the editor for OoP knows the difference between words like Nauseas and Nauseated. See McGonagall's reaction to Barty Jr.'s confession near the end of GoF. Shouldn't such a wonderful series get more attention than to let something like that slip through? Of course, I understand that someone let the difference between Ancestor and Descendant slip, so I guess we're all human. I wonder if the WW has a magical editor to prevent problems like that in the Daily Prophet! :) Brief Chronicles From hermione332003 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 00:20:01 2003 From: hermione332003 at yahoo.com (hermione332003) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:20:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's successor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59007 > > Tyler Hewitt wrote: > >As much as the idea makes me cringe, I think it would > >be intersting if Snape were made headmaster. Think of > >the possibilities-how it would effect daily life at > >Hogwarts, especially Harry, Ron, and Hermione, how no > >one is really sure of Snape's loyalties, etc. It would > >definately make for interesting reading! > > > >There's reasons to believe that Snape WOULD be made > >headmaster if DD died. DD's replacement is likely to > >be someone with a background in education, something > >Snape has over Arthur Weasley. In CoS, when Harry goes > >into Tom Riddle's diary, he sees Dumbledore as a > >professor, so there is an established pattern of > >promoting professors to headmaster. Also, with Lucius > >Malfoy basically controling the board of directors, > >Snape is a shoe-in (assuming Malfoy thinks Snape is > >still loyal to Voldemort). >>>>>> Why not Minerva McGonagall? She served as interim headmaster when Dumbledore was removed by Lucius Malfoy in CoS. Snape, while smart, has a underlying frustration with the world that would not serve him well in a leadership position. Plus, Lucius and Snape will be at odds with each other in Order of the Phoenix and the coming books. Snape was a fellow Death Eater but he joined the Ministry in its fight against Voldemort and served as a "spy." In Voldemort's musings in GoF, he commented that one of the Death Eaters had turned against him, and that he would be killed. I take this comment to be referring specifically to Snape. Thoughts? Comments? Hermione332003 From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sat May 31 01:05:15 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 03:05:15 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An observation on release date.... References: <117.2428d9c3.2c08a78a@aol.com> Message-ID: <003001c32710$b31da3d0$3706243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59008 Karen F wrote: Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned. It has just occurred to me that the release of OoP happens to fall on the same day as the Summer Solstice. I had already assumed that the day of release (not having kept up with interviews and news re the new book) was chosen as the start of summer break, or as a good midpoint between the CoS movie and the PoA in 2004, or some other logical marketing purpose, but now I can't help but wonder if there's another significance....or am I missing something entirely? I (Fridwulfa): I thought the summer solstice was june the 24th. And I thought one of the reasons it was released on a saturday was to allow everyone to go purchase the book, no school or work skiping and all that. Cheers, Izaskun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From edbrown at bellatlantic.net Fri May 30 23:15:27 2003 From: edbrown at bellatlantic.net (ericvsthem) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:15:27 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map revisited In-Reply-To: <3ED60BB6.27055.3DA84EE@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" wrote: > The map is obviously smarter than Harry has yet realized. It does seem to show those who are up to no good, both in shared cause with the map-holder or against the map-holder (ie, those who would help the map-holder's mischief and those who would hinder it), while those who would not have much impact either way seem to be inconsequential to the map, and therefore are not shown. I suspect that anyone who was within discovery range of the map-holder's entrance/exit from the tunnels would show up, though, regardless of their motives in being there. >>>>>>>>> I think that the map is very similar to Tom Riddle's diary. The diary contains the 16 year old consciousness of Riddle. He is not aware of what happens in the future, except through what he learns from Ginny's entries. The map works somewhat the same way - it contains the Hogwart-era consciousness of Pettigrew, James Potter, Lupin, and Black. They help the holder of the map to break rules and get outside of the Hogwart's grounds. The Marauders would not show Pettigrew on the map, because Pettigrew would not have wanted to be shown on it, as he was often up to no good. However, Pettigrew could not conceal himself on the map from another member of the Marauders (Lupin). The people whose where-abouts needed to be accounted for - Snape (who even at the time of the map creation was trying to bust the foursome), Dumbledore, Filch, Ms. Norris, faculty, and probably Ministry of Magic employees like Crouch - showed up on the map. Students, unless near the map itself, would not show up on it. "ericvsthem" From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat May 31 01:07:17 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 01:07:17 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised (was: About the gleam of triumph...) In-Reply-To: <20030530.104524.-677839.2.emeleel@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie L Ellis wrote: > > Which makes me wonder - why did DD decide it was time to move the stone > from Gringott's and then guard it? Maybe I'm just forgetting something, > but as I recall, there was zero indication that Voldemort was on the > prowl. > Valky (me): DD does say he has sources watching the location of Voldemort. Perhaps he is aware of a plot to steal the stone, and even Quirrel's involvement. Maybe he even plays devils advocate in allowing Quirrel to stay on at Hogwarts despite his suspicious behaviour regarding the attempted theft. DD is existentialist. In spite of any suspicions he has about Quirrell!Voldemort DD distinctly lacks vanity. He would not pursue a path of flagrant bickering with the MM and WW about Voldemorts return. It is so inconsequential to him that he proves he is right to anyone, he simply allows the events to unfold being aware in his omnipresent way that something is going on, but not actively seeking any personal glory. In all events he maintains that he does not fear Voldemort. It is here we see the pivotal distinction. He is not afraid and therefore does not feel the need to subdue the wraith,as does the Ministry. It is a stretch to say he knowingly allowed the wraith to walk the corridors of Hogwarts and interact with his students. Or is it. Just how Zen being is our Dumbledore, really? There is simply no saying he doesn't care about the possible danger to his students, of course he cares. What he doesn't do is actively fear for them. By moving the stone to Hogwarts to protect it he has moved the centrality of the issue of the return of Voldemort to a place beneath his watchful eye. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer...? From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Sat May 31 01:18:34 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 03:18:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Money Issues References: <144.127f90a6.2c08665a@aol.com> Message-ID: <007301c32712$8f0a3010$3706243e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 59011 ----- Original Message ----- From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Money Issues Nic says: No one said that James and Lily came from rich families, they made their own money from their jobs (is yet to be soon what their jobs were) and of course, Sirius had a job too before he got arrested. Whilst he is on the run, he doesnt need his money that he made so why not spoil your God son? We all know that Sirius and James were powerful wizards and that they were smart so they both would of got a decent job. Me (Izaskun): Well, In fact Jk said in one of the (i think) scholastic chat sessions, i'll look it up for you, that James came from a wealthy family so he didn't need to work to make his living or he didn't need a well paid job. Something like that. So we do know that James Potter came from a rich family. Maybe Sirius too. Or maybe he just got a winning ticket for the Wizarding Lotery, who knows. Cheers, Izaskun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat May 31 02:10:22 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 02:10:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's point of view (was: A Harry Failure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59012 DrMM wrote: >But they could have told a teacher or Percy that they didn't think >Hermione heard the announcement. Instead, they rushed off to find >her, not considering that they might run into the troll. Yes, running >in to save Hermione was brave & noble and all that ... It was also >incredibly dangerous and they certainly didn't consider THAT when >they decided to go after Hermione. All they were going to do was run and warn Hermione. They did not expect to find the troll there. Why should they? Hogwarts is a big school, and the troll was rumored to be in the dungeon at that moment since Quirrell ran into the Halloween celebration. Dumbledore did not seem to think it was needed for the children to run to their dormitories. Well, that is a bit unfair. Running of hundreds of children will not help any situation. A calm filing of students behind a "competent" prefect was the safest way to protect everyone. But I am getting off track. When Harry and Ron broke from their line, they thought it was the better thing to do. If they had not, they did believe Hermione was in danger and they would have felt guilty if anything had happen to her. And good thing they did, since something would have happened to her if they had not gone at that moment. If they had run and gotten a teacher, then that would have taken up time and Hermione would have been crushed under the troll club by the time they got back with a teacher. Good think they did act as they did. They did not go after the troll initially, and they did not consider all the consequences of their choice. All they knew that given the choice of warning their friend and thus possibly saving her life or leaving her unwarned and unaware, they chose to save their friend. It is that simple. They learned then that they did have other choices, but when they think back on it, they did choose the right one. Any other one would have left her dead or seriously injured. DrMM wrote: >Yeah, I know Harry was pushed to go try and get the stone, which is >why I said it was an iffy example. I'm of the theory that Dumbledore >knew all along what Harry & Co. were doing and he wanted them to go >after Quirrel. However, Harry made his own choices. He didn't have to >go after Quirrel. Yes, going after Quirrel was brave but it was >still a rash decision, that could have caused his death (and very >nearly did). Yes. Harry did make that choice. Harry always has choices. Being able to choose amongst many paths is the greatest power we have. (hehe...why am I thinking of Matrix Reloaded ::big grin::) No matter how much someone tries to influence out choices and manipulate them, in the end it is our choice. Now here is a prime example of influences choices. You admit yourself that you believe Dumbledore wants them to go after the stone and Quirrelmort; therefore, Dumbledore is trying to shape Harry to make that choice. Showing Harry why he should choose to go after Quirrelmort and how he can have a chance against him. So, can we say it is solely on Harry's shoulders to bare the brunt of his decisions? I am of two minds on this. Yes, it is because it is his decision, but then again, how is anyone, especially a child, an island in their decisions. A child is learning to make sound decisions. And frankly, the reward of major points is a great indicator to the child that their decisions and actions are smiled upon. Dumbledore is encouraging Harry to make the decisions he does. To say Harry is to blame for them is unfair. Dr. MM wrote: >>>He rushes off to the Forbidden >>>Forest, knowing full well how dangerous it is and nearly dies. So I wrote: >>Well, Hagrid did tell him to do it. Harry is anything if not >>obedient. And Harry did have detention in the forest where he was >>rescued by a centaur the last time. So she wrote back: >Harry obedient? I hope you're being sarcastic there ... Like I said, >he knows how dangerous it is. Hagrid may have told him to go but that >doesn't mean he had to. And being rescued by a centaur was luck. He >saw how angry the other centaur was, so he should know better than to >be expect to be rescued again if he's in trouble. Actually, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. Harry is very obedient. Look at him at the Dursley's. He does what he is told. Period. He did not argue. It was "Yes, Aunt Petunia. Yes, Uncle Vernon." He did the chores he was told to do. He dug out the garden in the blazing sun. In fact, the only time Harry disobeyed them was when they were not feeding him and he snuck out of his cabinet and escaped to Hogwarts. Well he broke his bet with Dursley, but if you analyze their bet in PoA, it shows how Harry's obedience works. If it compromises Harry's morals or feelings of pride, then Harry will go against it. Ok, actually let me tweak this a bit. Harry is growing up. He is becoming more independent as any budding teenager would. But he always, always, obeys Dumbledore and Lupin. (thank you to Gail for that little fact) Harry is exploring his boundaries and working on impulse like he did going into Hogsmeade without permission, but he does learn and listen. I find that to be the greater gift. Now back to the CoS decision to go into the forest. Hagrid was just arrested. Arrested under great distress. Harry just lost his "big older brother" who he knows is innocent. Harry *knows* he is. That means, Harry is int eh position to prove Hagrid's innocence. Before this "big older brother" was taken away, first Dumbledore looked straight at Harry and told him help will come to those who need it, and then Hagrid told Harry to follow spiders. If you put two and two together, even if those spiders go into the forest, Dumbledore told Harry help will come to those who need it and stay loyal. Well. It did. Twice. Granted, we do not know if Dumbledore knows about the car, but it did come when they needed it. But mostly, we have a Harry that *has* to save Hagrid. He knows he is innocent, and as far as Harry knows, he is the only one that knows that fact. In Harry's mind, he alone can save Hagrid. Dumbledore was just removed from the school. Dumbledore and Hagrid had just encouraged Harry to continue his quest. Harry knew what they wanted him to do. Was he really supposed to say, "Hey, this is dangerous. Even though Dumbledore told me help will come and Hagrid told me what to do, I am going to let Hagrid rot in jail and Dumbledore find a different school to teach because I might be hurt." That is not Harry and that is not a Gryffindor. > They were pressed for time? Well, they took a few minutes to go get > Lockhart, so it wouldn't have taken much extra time to get another > teacher. Harry and Ron finally...finally ran to a teacher. Their DADA teacher no less. The one who is *suppose* to be able to defeat a powerful bad animal. The one they knew was going after the Basilisk by order of the rest of the teachers. They went to warn him, not to get his help. They wanted him to do it, but when they got there, he was a total incompetent who tried to erase their minds. Hmmm....they took measure in their hands. Glad too. They knew they were pressed for time and that Ginny was down there, so they took the teacher they had and went down with him. And who else was there? Snape? Ha! McG? The last time in PS/SS they ran to her, she told them to leave things alone. Flitwick has never show signs of defeating big, evil, nasty creatures, but he can swish and flick it above them. But then again, he is very small. (sorry, had to put that from TTT:LOTR in there. ::big grin::) Everyone else is minor teachers in Harry's life right now. SO that leaves him alone with Ron with the knowledge that help will come to those who ask. > And would Harry have to defeat the bad guys if he let someone else > have a chance? :) Would anyone of defeated both the snake and Riddle if they had had a chance? Riddle was not after them. He was after Harry. He kept Harry alive longer for that reason. Anyone else, he would have killed or drained. But I am assuming that. I do not know. Maybe the likes of Snape had a chance. DrMM wrote: >Yes, Harry was scolded for that by Lupin. But Lupin is the only >person that reprimands him that he's actually listened to. If >McGonagall had caught him instead of Snape, I don't think Harry would >have "gotten it." And I'm not fully sure that Harry learned his >lesson. After all, he still rushes after Ron into a dangerous >situation later. I still fail to see how those two parallel. When Harry went to Hogsmeade the first time, it was for pure pleasure. It was dangerous. When he went after Ron later, it was to save Ron from the big black dog that had him in his jaws and just broke his leg. A *dog*. How was Harry to know it was Sirius Black? It was a dog who had his best friend. Any normal person would have run after him. I know I would. There is always a possibility that the situation you are running into is more dangerous than you might know, but if my best friend was in trouble, or my brother or boyfriend, I *so* would be there in a second kicking whatever's ass was tormenting him. I mean...is Harry a wizard or what? DrMM wrote: > Harry rushes into situations without thinking of the danger. It's a > very noble and self-sacrificing (and Gryffindor) trait, but not > always the best one. Harry needs to learn to restrain this instinct. > > After all, he who runs away lives to fight another day. :) DrMM. You want Harry to be like Draco? In the CoMC class, it was the Slytherins that made the wiser choice and ran for protection in Hagrid's hut. Wiser choice for themselves. For their life only. The better choice for humanity and the other students was to help Hagrid like the Gryffindor's do. And there in lies the difference between people. Some hold the Gryffindor's stupid. Some think the Slytherin's selfish. We just know how JKR sees that situation. DrMM wrote: >Peter wouldn't have transformed willingly but Dumbledore *would* have >at least listened to Sirius -- and then he could force Peter to >transform the way Lupin and Sirius did. All Sirius would need to do >is keep a good grip on him, while explaining this to Dumbledore. > >I don't think Dumbledore ever talked to Sirius before he went to >Azkaban. He certainly listens to Sirius after he's captured. And why is that? Why did Dumbledore, who was close to James and the crew, no go and talk to Black? Why did he not go and hear his view of things and the truth? Dumbledore is a powerful wizard in a powerful position. Fudge goes to him for advice, so seems to me, Dumbledore just had to ask and he could go. And yet, eh didn't. He did not know that Black was innocent. He did not know that Black was not the secret keeper. If he did not listen to Black then, why would he in the SS? Black did not seem to think Dumbledore would listen to him either. Black did not seek Dumbledore out to tell him the truth. Black assumed that it was up to him to give justice to the true betrayer of the Potters. It is only when he had nothing to loose and Dumbledore had the upper hand that Black told Dumbledore, and Dumbledore finally asked. DrMM wrote: > There's a quote from Terry Pratchett I think is appropriate. "You > mean you need cool calculating bastards to save the world, do you?" > (Thief of Time). See. Snape *is* working to save the world. So is Dumbledore. Pip and Grey Wolf, can we print that on the safe house welcome mat? ::big toothy grin:: Melody From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 02:38:29 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 02:38:29 -0000 Subject: Neville and Harry (was A Harry Failure) In-Reply-To: <46AE0124.20143E3E.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59013 Brief Chronicles wrote: > But I also see Neville as a pathetic character. He's nearly a squib, and while Harry sticks up for him in public, he has never extended a hand to welcome him in as a close friend. > > I think this is because Harry, Ron, and Hermione recognize that Neville lacks the skill, guts, and brains to measure up. While they don't dislike him for this, they are aware of his shortcomings and treat him more like a helpless child than an equal. I disagree with you on this. I don't see Neville as being a pathetic character at all, and I don't think HHR do either. I don't recall any instance where the trio treats him like a child. I see Neville as an example in perseverance for HHR to follow. In fact, the trio tries to offer him encouragement and give him the support he needs in order to stand on his own two feet. After the leg locker curse incident-" 'Your worth twelve of Malfoy', Harry said. 'The sorting hat chose you for Griffyndor, didn't it? And where's Malfoy? In stinking Slytherin.'"(chap 13 SS) As a result of this conversation, Neville stands up for himself at the quidditch game. I think Neville's problem isn't as much one of talent or lack there of, but of low self esteem, and I think HHR realize that. They speak up most often when it's Neville's confidence in himself that is shaken. Think about it. How much self esteem would you have if you were constantly told all your life, by family members no less, that you didn't measure up. "My Great Uncle Algie kept trying to catch me off my guard and force some magic out of me---he pushed me off the Blackpool pier once and I nearly drowned..." Doesn't sound like Neville even knows what possitive reinforcement is- at least until he started school. HHR are now supplying that. It makes me wonder how much the quality of magic a wizard/witch can do is related to the amount of confidence backing up the spell. Remember Neville at the end of the boggart lesson in PoA? He finished with a level of confidence that we rarely see in him, thanks this time to Lupin's confidence in him. I wonder if we will really see the true power of Neville only once he believes in himself. -Linda From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 31 02:42:06 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:42:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nauseous vs. Nauseated References: <46B2E994.723FD5EE.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <004c01c3271e$3a2f0cd0$0cccaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59014 Brief Chronicles wrote: > Shouldn't such a wonderful series get more attention than to let something like that slip through? Of course, I understand that someone let the difference between Ancestor and Descendant slip, so I guess we're all human. I wonder if the WW has a magical editor to prevent problems like that in the Daily Prophet! :) I wouldn't hold my breath. They let someone like Rita Skeeter slip in, and that's a lot bigger than a minor word typo. 8) Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From anneu53714 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 31 03:21:14 2003 From: anneu53714 at sbcglobal.net (Anne) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 03:21:14 -0000 Subject: Dementors kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jodi_dgn" > wrote: > > ... what happened to someone who receives the dementors kiss. We > > are told they just exist, but not really what happens to them once it > > happens. ...edited... > > Whatcha think? > > > > jodi-who is breathlessly waiting for June 21st. > > bboy_mn: > > Lose of the soul I think is the same as the lose of your basic > humanity. So when you are kissed by the Dementor you go from being a > human to being a mammal. You are reduced to living on instinct, no > logic, few memories, and given the effects of the dementors, a not > very happy mammal. You eat, you sleep, you sustain common instinctive > survival characteristics, but thats all. You are reduced to being a > very sad, pathetic, marginally intelligent, marginally functional 'dog'. Me (delurking for a bit): You are also apparently unable to converse with another human being in a meaningful way, nor do you have any memories of significant events - which was (at least in part) why Dumbledore was so (excuse my language) pissed off at Cornelius Fudge near the end of GOF -- Fudge's dementor kissed Barty Crouch, Jr., which effectively made Barty Jr. a vegetable and thus incapable of presenting any additional testimony about Voldemort that might be admissible in a wizarding court. I haven't decided yet whether Fudge is Ever So Evil. If he isn't, then he wins the Ostrich (not Oscar) Award. Anne U (who stopped trying to keep up with this list about 6 weeks ago when I was 600+ messages behind... but you canfind me on the OT-Chatter and Movie groups, and Live Journal) From jmeec316 at aol.com Sat May 31 05:07:56 2003 From: jmeec316 at aol.com (Jaimee) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 05:07:56 -0000 Subject: Another potions expert? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59016 Ersatz Harry wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, who do you suppose is keeping Lupin supplied > > with his werewolf prevention potion these days? Snape doesn't seem > > like he'd be that willing to do do without a specific request from > > Dumbledore, and we hear from Lupin that the potion is a difficult > one > > to make. Does that mean that some other potions expert will emerge > > somewhere outside Hogwarts? > > > > Ersatz Harry Gina replied: > Hmmm. While it would be rather interesting to see a bit of > Potions "competition" as it were, I've just thought that Lupin has to > do without. He doesn't seem to have a lot of money. So even if he > did know someone else who could do it, he probably couldn't afford > it. Unless there is a wizarding national health system aside from > institutionalization at St. Mungo's... > > Gina Jaimee suggests: What about Arabella Figg? I mean...her house does smell like cabbage. And this smell is associated with potions! And she was one of the "Old Crowd" and quite possibly friendly with Lupin... Just a thought :) Jaimee From catlady at wicca.net Sat May 31 06:37:24 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 06:37:24 -0000 Subject: Hog-names/Pig-names/Merlin/Poltergeist/IsThereaRuleAgainstSnogging/SortingHa Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59017 Phyllis erisedstraeh wrote: << But the interview segment seems fairly clear that JKR didn't intend for the Hogwarts name to "mean something." Or at least, it doesn't have a meaning that she's willing to divulge just yet! >> I like my theory (almost halfway down http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/58092 ) that all its local geographic features are named after the local mountain, Mt. Hog or Hogmount. Becky gopotter2004 wrote: << this much *pork* in a book, in my humble opinion. HOGwarts HOGsmeade HOG's Head >> As Steve bboy_mn pointed out, those three go together. << PIGwidgeon >> Which happens to be a real word. One-Look Dictionary http://www.onelook.com offers: "(n.) A cant word for anything petty or small. It is used by Drayton as the name of a fairy. (This definition is from the 1913 Webster's Dictionary and may be outdated.)" << PIG snout (the password) >> There are MANY passwords quoted. Another is "caput draconis", which I believe means "dragon snout". << Hagrid gives Dudley a PIG's tail when he gets upset >> Surely because JKR had already discribed Dudley as looking like a pig in a wig? (chapter two of PS/SS). Btw http://www.pacprod.com/cgi-bin/hazelnt.exe?client=97769165&action=DETA IL&item=7611 J H Lupin wrote: << Merlin himself. I know, how great could he be, he wasn't even a founder? >> He was some centuries too early. Hogwarts was founded (per Binns) "more than a thousand years ago", which I take to mean in the 900s. I gather that Merlin is generally placed right after the Roman Empire left Britain, which IIRC was in the 400s. Kelly Grosskreutz wrote: << She is a ghost, but yet she has the ability to displace water when she dives into her toilet. She is known for causing flood after flood in that bathroom. Binns, if I'm recalling it correctly, can write on the chalkboard with chalk. So what, in this setting, sets a ghost apart from a poltergeist? >> Peeves the poltergeist can push material objects more than Nick the ghost can. See CoS: "I persuaded Peeves to crash it right over Filch's office," said Nick eagerly. "Thought it might distract him -" Debbie wrote: << While it's not clear that this was a violation of the rules, Snape's attitude toward fraternization between the sexes at the Yule Ball suggests that it is, as Snape took house points away from the transgressors. >> I always think that Snape took those points arbitrarily, because he had a bad mood to vent on the nearest victims, and possibly also out of spiteful envy of young lovers. Koticzka wrote: << Taking into consideration that the Sorting Hat has much more sense than anyone else and is fully or at least partly conscious of its choices and their consequences, my theory is that the Hat will save Hogwarts by executing a subtle plan and ignoring students basic personality for a greater good. However, I am open to hearing other opinions, and I will consider them with curiosity. >> Some time ago, someone proposed a detailed theory in which the Sorting Hat *is* executing a subtle plan ... it is causing all the bad things in the wizarding world (by controlling their culture) in order to maintain its own power. And the only happy ending would be to destroy the Sorting Hat, and the House system... From catlady at wicca.net Sat May 31 06:51:37 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 06:51:37 -0000 Subject: TheGleam/Gilderoy/Stupid Great Wizards (at climax of PoA) /Plumbing/ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59018 Darrin wrote: << Perhaps at the moment when he looks old and weary is when he knows that this will not happen without his death. Kinda like Gandalf going into the mines. >> To me, the moment when he looks old and weary is when he knows that this will not happen without HARRY's death. Peggy Barrato wrote: << About Lockheart, I'm not so sure we can really trust what JKR has told us. She has not completed the series yet, and there are two books to go. I'm not so sure she knows exactly what is going to happen just yet. Remember Icicle ( think this is how she spelled it...not sure)? Although, I would like to forget him! >> JKR said: "Gilderoy, bless him, is still in Saint Mungo's hospital for magical ailments and injuries, `cos his memory's just gone. So I'm making no promises about Gilderoy." in http://www.angelfire.com/magic/aberforthsgoat/archive/Fall00_BBC_Newsr ound.htm In other words, that scene after the ending credits of CoS movie has some validity. "greatlit2003" wrote: << I was bothered by Black and Lupin's incredibly Muggle way of transporting Pettigrew at the end of PoA. Why didn't they do to him what Hermione did to Rita Skeeter at the end of GoF? Do wizards not rationalize, >> Well, remember that Hermione's comment on the potions/logic puzzle in PS/SS was "A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever." (I empathise: I haven't got an ounce of logic either.) Eledhwen wrote: << I have also always been bothered by their increadible stupidity that night. (snip) I know that he has to escape for the plot for the next books to work, but still it seem that Lupin and Sirius choose one of the worst and most risky alternatives of detaining Pettigrew. >> Feel sorry for (fiction) writers. It's not enough that they have to put words together in a way that makes the reader perceive characters who are realistic people with personalities and inner lives and also in such a way that the words sound pretty or dramatic or funny, but also be terribly clever at thinking up the bad guys' schemes and even cleverer at thinking up how the good guys' can defeat those schemes. Ersatz Harry wrote: << I would think magic could be brought to bear on the technological problem of human waste disposal more than is evident from the books. Then again, maybe there's a magical sewage plant at the bottom of the lake. >> I feel *certain* that there are Filter spells so that the water that reaches Hoglake is pure, sweet, fresh water (occasionally plus Myrtle, who is a ghost and therefore not material). As the conservation of mass-energy doesn't seem to apply to magic, maybe the pollutants just get Vanished. Dave Burgess wrote: << It coud be argued that some wizards (of Arthur Weasley's ilk) could be exposed to wizarding conveniences and make up non-magic versions using electricity. >> Or Muggles who were guests in wizarding homes. Here's my rant on Wizarding Technology (including Plumbing): I always say, in the Potterverse, the wizarding folk had indoor plumbing with hot and cold running water and flush toilets ever since Atlantis. All the various Muggles who 'invented' indoor plumbing (Minoans, Romans, 18th century, etc) were really trying to copy what they had seen when a guest in a wizarding home. Also, the wizarding folk had elaborate castles ever since Atlantis, so it doesn't matter that Muggle 'castles' were IIRC wooden huts surrounded by a muddy ditch and a picket fence at the time of the Founders. I personally don't believe in Atlantis or primordial matriarchies, but I also don't believe in flying carpets or House Elves. A large part of the gimmick of the Potterverse is that many things which are familiar folklore or fantasy motifs which every reader *knows* aren't real, *are* real (altho' often garbled) in the Potterverse. So I think I'm tremendously amusing to add Atlantis and primordial matriarchies to the list of things that Muggles are too stupid to believe in. *** I believe that their plumbing empties into the lake via a magical cleaning spell that transmutes all the waste products into pretty flowers or such, but I fear that that mgical cleaning spell was put in place by the lake's inhabitants, such as the merpeople, rather than by the castle's occupants. Even tho' I believe that wizards have had indoor plumbing with hot and cold running water and flush toilets for over nine thousand years, I have no evidence that medieval wizards had a higher concern for clean drinking water and pleasant smelling surroundings than their Muggle contemporaries did. *** I believe that Potterverse wizarding folk have had late twentieth century indoor plumbing and Renaissance 'replica' castles since back before Atlantis sank. They didn't need to know any plumbing, hydraulics, metallurgy, stonecarving, or architecture because they made their bathrooms and castles by MAGIC! However, Muggles who visted wizards and saw the nice things the wizards had, had to invent all that technology in order to imitate the wizarding goodies. There is a long history of Muggles trying to imitate wizarding plumbing: Minoan, Classical Roman, etc. The wizarding folk teach their children a lot of self-enhancing falsehoods. For example, they teach their children that the reason to keep magic secret from Muggles is to avoid being pestered by Muggles wanting favors (and Hagrid, not having completed his education, still believes that), when in reality the wizarding folk went into hiding because they were scared of the Muggles attacking them. Another example is that they teach their children that Muggles use technology to imitate what wizards do by magic. Technology probably *started* that way, Muggles trying to figure out how to make bathrooms and castles and swords like the wizards had ... this may have remained true up to the Steam Age, with Muggles inventing horseless carriages to imitate the horseless carriages that carry students from Hogsmeade Station to Hogwarts, inventing railroads to imitate wizarding self-propelled wagons like at Gringotts, gaslight to imitate the magical self-lighting candles on the wall of wizarding houses ... but by then the discovery and invention of science and technology had become self-propelling themselves, and with Electricity, Muggles went on to invent things that the wizarding folk copy. The Wizarding Wireless Network is obviously an imitation of Muggle radio, because it's named after "wireles", the British Muggle name for radio. The wizarding folk would have no other reason to name it "wireless", because they didn't have a preceeding technology named "wire" (the telegraph). *** The kindly condescension to Muggles shown by the older Weasleys IS a little off. They say, isn't it marvellous that Muggles and their cute little toys are able to make do without magic? One common Muggle cute little toy, the telephone, can send a message a great deal faster than an owl! Other listies have mentioned Muggle bombs that blow up a great deal more than one street and twelve people. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 31 08:28:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:28:58 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drmm_fuuko" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" wrote: > > > DrMM wrote: > > > >PS/SS: ..., Harry & Ron race into the bathroom to fight > > > a troll. They both could have run off to find a teacher ... but > > >they rush in and fight it themselves. ... > > Melody (?): > > > > Well they did not run off to fight the troll. They ran off to find > > Hermione. They found her and the troll trying to kill her. So > > therefore, they saved her life because they did not run off to > > find the teachers ... > DrMM: > > But they could have told a teacher or Percy that they didn't think > Hermione heard the announcement. ...edited... > bboy_mn: And what exactly was Percy suppose to do? He was busy doing his job which was getting all the first years to safety. It would have been pretty negligent of him to abandon the students, and go after Hermione. So Hermione would have simply had to wait until the students were in the dorm and Percy had time to go after her or to alert someone. Since it was assume the troll was in the dungeon and Hermione was not, it wouldn't have been a deathly urgent matter. And what teachers where they supposed to ask for help? All the teachers were in the dungeon searching for the troll which in reality wasn't in the dungeons at all. How long to find a teacher under those circumstances? How long to convince a teacher that the possible safety of one student outweighed the real danger of a troll being loose in the dungeons? If Hermione was in a bathroom, then she was probable deemed safe given what was known at the time. Given the assumed safety of the bathroom, Harry and Ron would have been in trouble for going to the dungeon to tell rather than going to the safety of the common room. Going for a teacher was not a viable option. So going for a teacher, or asking Percy would not have brought timely assistance to Hermione. I can't see her priority being assessed as anything but low. Harry and Ron orginally didn't plan to do anything but go to the bathroom and tell Hermione she had to go to the common room with the rest of the students. Unfortunately, they encountered the troll on the way and as luck (you judge whether good or bad) would have it, they were presented with the opportunity to lock the troll in a room. A dangerous, but not really all that dangerous move. The problem started when the realized they had locked the troll in the bathroom with Hermione, at that point there was no time AT ALL to run for help. Hermione was under attack and they had to act immediately. Let's also remember that the troll walked into Hermione's bathroom on his own. Harry and Ron did not force him in there. So it is reasonable to think that the troll heard Hermione in the bathroom and went to investigate. Hermione's danger was IMMEDIATE, and that danger was there independent of Harry and Ron's presents or actions. They didn't create the danger to Hermione, they only compounded it by locking the door. Consider how long it took McGonagall, Snape, and Quirrel to get to the bathroom. Independant of any action on Harry or Ron's part, Hermione would have surely been dead before any help arrived. Also, it's important to judge these event with only the knowledge that Harry and Ron had. We as the readers are priviledged to knowledge they dont' have. > > > DrMM: > > > > > >In a somewhat more iffy example, Harry rushes off to try and stop > > >Quirrel *by himself*. While he recognizes the danger, he at least > > >thinks he at least has a chance to stop him, which has always > > >seemed a bit arrogant to me. ...edited.... bboy_mn: Harry did NOT rush off by himself and try to stop Quirrel (actually he thought it was Snape at the time, but for this discussion that doesn't matter). Harry first tried to find Dumbledore to tell him. Unable to find Dumbledore, he tried to tell McGonagall. McGonagall was not willing to listen to what they had to say. As Harry pointed out, if they claimed Snape was trying to steal the stone before the fact, all Snape had to do was deny it. Harry really had nothing to back up his story except his belief that Snape had learn how to get past the last challenge to the Stone. He did not have sufficient evidence to convince anyone of anything. Once he discovered Dumbledore was gone, and McGonagall would not let them stand guard at the entrance, they (H/R/H) viewed the situation as lost. If they didn't act then based on the knowledge they had, Snape would get the stone and that would mean Voldemort would get the stone, and that would be a disaster for the wizard world. Harry decide HE was going to try and get to the stone before Snape. He made his own decision for himself, and neither asked nor expected Ron and Hermione to come along. He is, in fact, surprised to find that Ron and Hermione assume that they to are coming along. It is only when they are deep into the chambers does Harry begin to realize that Snape is already there at the stone. At that time, he sends Hermione back to get Ron, and sends the two of them to get help. At that point, Harry knows he can't possibly defeat Snape. The best he can hope for is to slow Snape down long enough for help to arrive. I see no arrogance or inflated sense of self-worth in these actions. They seem very selfless to me. > > > > He rushes off to the Forbidden Forest, knowing full well how > > > dangerous it is and nearly dies. bboy_mn: He didn't exactly 'rush off'. He had just seen the Headmaster of the school, the only thing providing any hope of safety for the students, suspended. He had just seen his best adult friend sent to prison. He was the prime suspect in the attacks on the students. The only clue he had that might lead him to any information that might help was 'follow the spiders'. They spend days searching for spiders, and only by chance spotted some while in Herbology. So exactly what were they suppose to do? Go to McGonagall and tell her that Hagrid said they should follow the spiders and that they saw spiders going into the forest? That would go over big (sarcasm). And how were they suppose to explain the circumstance in which Hagrid told them to follow the spiders? I have to believe McGonagall would completely forget about spiders and focus all her attention on DETENTION for being out of the castle after dark. I just don't see talking to McGonagall or any other teachers as being in anyway productive toward solving the problem. However, by going into the forest, they found information that lead them to the student who died and to the location of the entrance to the Chamber of Secrect. Something that would have never happened if they had played by the rules. Going into the Chamber- The teachers had already given up. They were getting ready to close the school and were at a complete loss when it came to solving the real problem. Remember that when Harry and Ron heard what had happened, they were hiding in a wardrobe closet. They had a very limited view of what was happening. They could basically hear the teachers conversation with Lockhart, but had a limited view of demenor and body english which in turn limited the ability to interpret what they heard. So while they knew the teachers didn't put much stock in Lockhart, Lockhart did indicate that he was going into the Chamber after Ginny while the other teacher spend their time preparing to close the school and send the students home. The only person who gave even the slightest indication that they were going to do anything about Ginny was Lockhart. After going back to the common room and pondering the circumstances for a while, they decide the best thing to do is tell Lockhart what they know. At this point, while I'm sure they believe Lockhart is incompetent, they do believe that he is going to do something. Once they confront Lockhart and find out that he is running, their last hope is lost. Now what? Exactly what would you have them do at this point? I think they made a reasonable decision to go to Myrtle's bathroom, talk to her, and see if they can confirm their suspicsions that her bathroom is indeed the entrance to the Chamber. Once Harry opens the Chamber, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to decide to go in after Ginny given that none of the teachers has show any interest in helping Ginny. We are in a situation very similar to the troll, the primary concern of the teachers is the welfare of the entire student body. There is a limted amount that they are willing to do for one possibly dead student when they have nearly a 1,000 LIVE students who are depending on them. Black Dog Attacks Ron in POA- Ron is viciously attacked by a bear sized dog. When the dog dragged Ron under the tree snaping his leg in the process, it would have become obvious to anyone that the dog had absolutely no concern for Ron's safety. The danger was immediate, and action had to be just as immediate. Consider how long it took and how hard it was to get help to come down to Crouch Sr in GoF. Given the time it would take to run to the castle or to Hagrid's for help, and given how much explaining it would take to get people to understand what had happened, knowing what they knew, Ron would surely have been dead. Once again we have to analyse this situation by ONLY giving consideration to what Harry and Hermione knew. We as readers are priviledged to a lot of inside information that Harry and Hermione don't have. We also have the luxury of hindsight, and plenty of time to analyse the situation. No matter how long we take to analyse it, the danger to Ron doesn't change. But from Hermione and Harry's limited perspective, every second brings Ron one second closer to imminent death. All they know is that their best friend have been capture by a vicious bear-sized black dog who has already thrown Ron around like a rag doll and broken his leg. In the heat of the moment, any evaluation of the situation would have to conclude that delay was not an option. As far as Harry going after the dog and Hermione going for help, that is a possibility, but I don't see it as a likely option. Harry is not really equiped at that point to deal with a vicious animal like this. You can't delay vicious animals with a lot of small talk. So what is he going to do? What spell would be effective against an animal like this? ...a tickle charm? Sorry, but I pretty much see Harry and Hermione as evaluating the situation accurately and doing was any reasonable brave person would have done. Admittedly the safest thing for Harry and Hermione would have been to go for help, but I honestly believe that that course of action would have been death for Ron. Remember, the evaluation of what to do is based on available knowledge, not on what we the readers know is going to happen in the next chapter or two. Harry and Hermione can only make their judgement based on what limited knowledge they have at the time, and any reasonable interpretation of that knowledge would say save your friend before it's too late. Just a thought. bboy_mn > > DrMM (who was reading Fantastic Posts earlier and was astonished to > find how many of her messages from 2 years ago were included) From yellows at aol.com Sat May 31 01:53:42 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:53:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An observation on release date.... Message-ID: <21622305.6EA2D10B.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59020 In a message dated 5/30/2003 8:05:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es writes: > I (Fridwulfa): > I thought the summer solstice was june the 24th. And I thought one of the reasons it was released on a saturday was to allow everyone to go purchase the book, no school or work skiping and all that. > > Cheers, Izaskun > > The Solstice begins on the 21st. I brought this up during last Sunday's chat, and most people there seemed to think the release date is just a coincidence. To be honest, when I first heard it was coming out then, the first thing I thought was that it had to be relevant. It's the Summer Solstice and it's a book called The Order of the Phoenix -- a fire-related topic. I don't know. :) Maybe I'm just reading too much into things as usual! :) Brief Chronicles From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 02:20:12 2003 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 02:20:12 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59021 Things I hope to see and not see in book 5 Enough with the Animagi. So there's this registration thing we're told. So being an Animagi is very rare we're told. Keep it so. No Neville the fish. No Snape the vampire. No Mrs. Figg the Crookshanks. Let Rita Skeeter be the last one. Time to move on to a new plot device. No time travel. Having been a Star Trek fan, the dangers of messing with time travel for a writer are nasty. As a lurker here, I'm not about to reopen old debates. But that plot device has been used once before and let's ignore it. Even if it means not learning how the twins learned about the QWC outcome. Tighter writing. Book 4 was a real downer for me when I got to the end due to the whole Portkey / specific activation time issue. Not because the whole "Catch an early portkey" line was ignored, rather because it didn't need a lot of effort to make it work. All that was needed was that a portkey have an activation command instead of an activation time to make that work. Additionally, all that was needed was a line from Voldemort that Harry's blood was no good to him unless he had a certain level of skill as a wizard for his rebirth spell to work and the purpose of having Harry in the Tournament is validated. That smells of rushed writing to me (and validated IMHO by the Lily / James emergence issue). The book is later than was planned. Let's hope that means quality control was turned up a notch. Back to my lurking ways. Chuck PS - My guess is that "Order of the Phoenix" is not a rank or organization. "Order" can also mean "Command." And there was a lot of Phoenix song at the end of book 4. Maybe Fawkes was "Ordering" the wands to do something. From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 04:47:50 2003 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 04:47:50 -0000 Subject: Will the real Lupin please stand up... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59022 > The only logical reason is that the *Lupin* we know is not the > real Remus Lupin. That's not the "only" logical reason. Another reason could include that he is a werewolf and may not want to be around Harry when he changes. Another could be that the protections surrounding Harry at the Dursley's also effect Lupin. Another is that no one contacted Harry before he turned 11, so why should Lupin? Another is that Lupin was doing something for DD or the Ministry and was out of contact. Another is that Lupin was searching for a cure (the potion that Snape made) and was occupied. > This is not my theory, and can be found in an > style book available in most bookstores (I believe it is > something like < The Magical Mysteries of Harry Potter>). That book also overlooks some key points in jumping to its conclusions in other areas and ignores discussing points that would refute the author's predictions (portkeys and time specificity for example). I will be very disappointed if that is indeed how it turns out. Harry should not be Job where he gets everything back at the end. Harry is an orphan and should stay that way. Makes any resolution much more profound. And keeps the message that loss is permanent. Chuck From kim.dawkins at charter.net Sat May 31 05:59:27 2003 From: kim.dawkins at charter.net (Kimberly Dawkins) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:59:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort/Lily [was: Sympathy for Voldemort?] In-Reply-To: <33.3948fa50.2c075d43@aol.com> Message-ID: <09B25DEC-932D-11D7-8A23-000393827B3E@charter.net> No: HPFGUIDX 59023 On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 07:55 AM, CareALotsClouds at aol.com wrote: > > I don't hate Voldemort, I do, in fact, feel sorry for him.? Let me > explain > why: > > As we all know, Tom Riddle Jr was born an orphan when his mother died > at > child birth....He hasn't got a heart?? I think he does for his Mother. > AHA! I have read much speculation about why Voldemort told Lily to stand aside rather than just kill her out right. What about this idea! He would have spared her because of his latent feelings for his own mother! Maybe he doesn't even realize it, probably would deny it if asked, but if he spent all his life pining for the mother he loves but lost, perhaps seeing Lily so fiercely protecting Harry gave him an unconscious momentary lapse in his ruthlessness (is this a word?). Just a thought. Kim (trying to think up a cool online name : - )) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat May 31 11:00:57 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 04:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADMIN: apology Message-ID: <20030531110057.57668.qmail@web20305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59024 Hi all, As sharp-eyed people may have noticed, I sent a post here that concerned one listie's complaint about a post by another; my post was meant to be copied to hpforgrownups-owner, *not* the list. I deleted it the moment I realized my mistake, but those of you who receive individual e-mails or digests will have seen it. My apologies to the people concerned. I'm sorry to interrupt you to make this apology, but it's important that you know that it is *not* list admin policy to respond publicly to people's complaints about other posters . . . that was just me screwing up. I now return you to your regularly scheduled book analyzing. Twenty-one days to go! Amy ===== The [Chudley Cannons'] motto was changed in 1972 from 'We shall conquer' to 'Let's all just keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best'. --Quidditch Through the Ages __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From heidit at netbox.com Sat May 31 11:24:35 2003 From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:24:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] An observation on release date.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59025 If the last release - for GoF - hadn't been a summer Saturday, I'd be inclined to go for your argument. However, I think they did want to replicate the Summer Saturday release concept, and if the Solstice hadn't been a Saturday, they wouldn't've chosen, say, a wednesday for the release just to merge it with the Solstice. But I wouldn't be surprised if they chose the 21st for this - as it's also the first day of summer - versus, say, the 28th - because of the summer/solstice connection. -----Original Message----- From: yellows at aol.com Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:53:42 To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] An observation on release date.... Real-To: yellows at aol.com In a message dated 5/30/2003 8:05:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es writes: > I (Fridwulfa): > I thought the summer solstice was june the 24th. And I thought one of the reasons it was released on a saturday was to allow everyone to go purchase the book, no school or work skiping and all that. > > Cheers, Izaskun > > The Solstice begins on the 21st. I brought this up during last Sunday's chat, and most people there seemed to think the release date is just a coincidence. To be honest, when I first heard it was coming out then, the first thing I thought was that it had to be relevant. It's the Summer Solstice and it's a book called The Order of the Phoenix -- a fire-related topic. I don't know. :) Maybe I'm just reading too much into things as usual! :) Brief Chronicles ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods, Elves, and Geists -- HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com or to reach just the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Sat May 31 12:01:10 2003 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:01:10 -0000 Subject: The word "order", was: Re: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59026 Chuck wrote: > PS - My guess is that "Order of the Phoenix" is not a rank or > organization. "Order" can also mean "Command." And there was a lot > of Phoenix song at the end of book 4. Maybe Fawkes was "Ordering" > the wands to do something. Now Alice: I used to think that, but then the general internet opinion overwhelmed me. An interesting addition, though: Although the book hasn't even been released, we Hungarian readers have a promise from the publisher that the book will be out in Hungrian by Christmas, with the title "Harry Potter es a Fonix Rendje", in which "Rend" means Order as in some sort of organisation, and NOT Order as in Command, which would be "Parancs". I was wondering whether the publisher was just assuming that this was the meaning intended, or whether they were tipped off. I really can't see them contacting Bloomsbury to ask and really can't see Bloomsbury answering the question, but on the other hand it would be rather a fat assumption to make otherwise, wouldn't it? It'd be quite embarassing for them if they turned out to be wrong. The marketing campaign is in full swing already, after all, featuring this title. Love, Alice From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 12:40:54 2003 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (Susan Snow) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 05:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] An observation on release date.... Message-ID: <20030531124054.80666.qmail@web41313.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59027 --- Heidi Tandy wrote: > If the last release - for GoF - hadn't been a summer > Saturday, I'd be inclined to go for your argument. > > However, I think they did want to replicate the > Summer Saturday release concept, and if the Solstice > hadn't been a Saturday, they wouldn't've chosen, > say, a wednesday for the release just to merge it > with the Solstice. > My thoughts, I just assumed the Saturday idea was for work/school too. But the more I thought about it The Solstice is the only point in the year where the light equals the dark and the days ahead are more light than dark. I think it has something to do with it. I also think for the publishers the marketing is all important. They want this to be the BIGGEST event ever. So why release it during the week when some people (I don't know who, none of us) couldn't or wouldn't go buy the book the day of its release. Just my thoughts.... Snowwy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From ivanova at idcnet.com Sat May 31 12:41:20 2003 From: ivanova at idcnet.com (Kelly Grosskreutz) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:41:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Hog-names/Pig-names/Merlin/Poltergeist/IsThereaRuleAgainstSnogging/SortingHa References: Message-ID: <000e01c32771$f1589d10$1accaf42@your74fv6srp82> No: HPFGUIDX 59028 > Debbie wrote: > > << While it's not clear that this was a violation of the rules, > Snape's attitude toward fraternization between the sexes at the Yule > Ball suggests that it is, as Snape took house points away from the > transgressors. >> > Catlady continued: > I always think that Snape took those points arbitrarily, because he > had a bad mood to vent on the nearest victims, and possibly also out > of spiteful envy of young lovers. He had every right to take points in this situation. It's pretty much the equivalent of a high school sponsoring a dance, a teacher taking a walk in the parking lot, and coming across a car with two students making out in the back seat. Having sex on school grounds is not allowed. I always got the impression that's what was going on in those bushes. Snape, on his walk, either hears them or sees them laying on the ground making out and deducts points. He doesn't turn it into anything more because he is preoccupied with Karkaroff and what Karkaroff has been telling him. Kelly Grosskreutz http://www.idcnet.com/~ivanova From htfulcher at comcast.net Sat May 31 13:01:02 2003 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:01:02 -0000 Subject: A Harry Failure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59029 bboy_m writes: > Admittedly the safest thing for Harry and Hermione would have been to go for help, but I honestly believe that that course of action would have been death for Ron. Remember, the evaluation of what to do is based on available knowledge, not on what we the readers know is going to happen in the next chapter or two. Harry and Hermione can only make their judgement based on what limited knowledge they have at the time, and any reasonable interpretation of that knowledge would say save your friend before it's too late.< ME: I agree wholeheartedly. "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." Albus Dumbledore, GoF MarEphraim From SaalsG at cni-usa.com Sat May 31 14:49:30 2003 From: SaalsG at cni-usa.com (Grace Saalsaa) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:49:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors kiss References: Message-ID: <004601c32783$d800dc80$134053d1@DJF30D11> No: HPFGUIDX 59030 bboy_mn: Lose of the soul I think is the same as the lose of your basic humanity. So when you are kissed by the Dementor you go from being a human to being a mammal. You are reduced to living on instinct, no logic, few memories, and given the effects of the dementors, a not very happy mammal. You eat, you sleep, you sustain common instinctive survival characteristics, but thats all. You are reduced to being a very sad, pathetic, marginally intelligent, marginally functional 'dog'. Grace: Ah, but you assume that dogs have no soul. I rescue dogs, retrain them and know them pretty well. They think, they feel, and the breed I rescue has the ability to reason like a 10-12 year old child. I think they *do* have a soul. It just isn't a human's soul. It could be that a person kissed by a Dementor is more dangerous. We don't know what happens to them after the kiss, do we? I would think a person without a soul has nothing to lose and therefore cares about little. Sociopathic; the axe murderer, serial killer... without a soul and without a heart. That sounds pretty scary to me. From CareALotsClouds at aol.com Sat May 31 09:56:44 2003 From: CareALotsClouds at aol.com (CareALotsClouds at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 05:56:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort/Lily [was: Sympathy for Voldemort?] Message-ID: <196.1b1652a1.2c09d65c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59031 Kim said: I have read much speculation about why Voldemort told Lily to stand aside rather than just kill her out right. What about this idea! He would have spared her because of his latent feelings for his own mother! Maybe he doesn't even realize it, probably would deny it if asked, but if he spent all his life pining for the mother he loves but lost, perhaps seeing Lily so fiercely protecting Harry gave him an unconscious momentary lapse in his ruthlessness (is this a word?). Nic says: I think that is definitely a possibility. If Voldemort is so heartless he would of just killed her even though he didnt need to, but he did ask her to step aside. But Other people have different speculations about that (lily was a death eater... lily is his grand daughter and loads of other far fetched things like that). I think it shows that Voldemort doesnt just kill out of randomness (is that a word). Loadsa love Nic x x xx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cassandre.lamaudite at laposte.net Sat May 31 11:54:10 2003 From: cassandre.lamaudite at laposte.net (emmajess29) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:54:10 -0000 Subject: Bet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59032 Hello ! I've got a question : during the quidditch world cup, fred and george won a bet that was very unlikely. Does anyone have clue of how they managed that ? EmmaJess From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat May 31 13:19:26 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:19:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will the real Lupin please stand up... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59033 In a message dated 5/31/2003 5:50:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com writes: > > >This is not my theory, and can be found in an > > style book available in most bookstores (I believe it is > >something like ). > > That book also overlooks some key points in jumping to its > conclusions in other areas and ignores discussing points that would > refute the author's predictions (portkeys and time specificity for > example). > For those who might be interested, Mugglenet indicates that the author of this book, Galadriel Waters, will be in a live chat there this evening (afternoon, if you're west of the Mississippi), 31 May, at 10 PM GMT/5 PM EDT. Go to Mugglenet, click on Fans in the navigation bar on the left, & you should find a chat link. (Fortunately, I won't be home - 'cause if I were to go, I'd get myself TOSed for sure... ) Sherrie (who does NOT believe that Lupin & James switched bodies - anymore than she believes Elvis is flipping burgers in Wisconsin) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From spfrss at libero.it Sat May 31 13:26:59 2003 From: spfrss at libero.it (Mauro Rossini) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:26:59 -0000 Subject: Murder she wrote... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59034 SNIP> > > I say Hermione is in as much danger as Harry, and even her parents. > Because of those darn articles Rita Skeeter wrote on her, Harry and > Krum, Voldemort will use her to get to Harry. > > Greicy, who loves Hermione dearly and who will also be crying > buckets and perhaps even a river.....could someone please pass the > tissue! SNIP >>> I think Miss Granger is in danger not only because of articles, but because I think Voldy has realized now she's really an integral part of Harry's ability to defeat him, you remember in CoS she gave the solution to Riddle's riddle (Smile!) even in petrified state, so better thing to kill her and then proceed to eliminate Harry, which would be morally destroyed (like losing your most beloved sister, I'd say) and by lacking her moral and intellectual and 'witching' support. Mauro, which being an italian male is forbidden to cry in that case and would have to drink a lot to wash away the sorrow From oooolya at hotmail.com Sat May 31 14:50:24 2003 From: oooolya at hotmail.com (zwtyrj) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:50:24 -0000 Subject: Will the real Lupin please stand up... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > Another is that no one contacted Harry before he turned 11, so why > should Lupin? And what about Harry's first and second years in Hogwarts? He already knew his true nature and really needed someone to support him. Lupin knew that. He could just look at him and remember the past... "zwtyrj" From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sat May 31 16:46:02 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:46:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bet References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59036 *Danger Mouse sneaks out of his lair beneath the floorboards, opening them with a prolonged creak. Wearing his invisibility sweater, he drop-kicks a copy of OoP with a piece of paper stuck inside, landing on a List Elf's head.* Heya EmmaJess. I'm taking this opportunity, as a Quidditch fanatic, to stop (temporarily) my Lurkiness. I believe this was discussed before, but let me try to recall what our more active members came up with... Let's see... IIRC, the bet wasn't actually all that unlikely, because of one big reason: the chasers (head explodes with joy, as DM is a major lover of chasers) Just like baseball, it's fairly certain that stats are available for all of the various players on a given team. Harry notes at the end of the game that, "The Irish Chasers were too good... He (Krum) wanted to end it on his terms, that's all." How very true. Before Krum caught the Snitch, the score was Bulgaria: 10, Ireland: 170. Quite substantial! If we assume that Fred and George were aware of Bulgaria/Ireland's recent Quidditch matches, the effectiveness of each of the teams' chasers, and a little about Krum's style, the bet would be fairly likely actually. Had Krum been more patient, just long enough to be 140 points behind, he would have probably been able to get the Snitch (though his Wrongski Feints would have probably snapped the Irish Seeker's neck eventually). Anyways, I hope I made sense here. Thank Christmas for Chasers, Dan... DM... Danger Mouse. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From livesinthebadplace at hotmail.com Sat May 31 15:37:52 2003 From: livesinthebadplace at hotmail.com (freia80) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:37:52 -0000 Subject: Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59037 I noticed something about Portkeys while re-reading GoF (aahh, it is so good!) and I hope you will not kill me if this has been discussed before. In chapter six ("The Portkey") Arthur explains to Harry: "They're objects that are used to transport wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time". Steve's Lexicon definition is: "A Portkey is an enchanted object, often a piece of supposedly worthless junk, which when touched will transport a person to a preprogrammed location". Nothing is mentioned about the "prearranged time" bit in this definition, and indeed, later in the book - when the Triwizard Cup acts as a Portkey - it works like that: when it is touched. So I'm wondering if I've missed something here or if there are simply many different kinds of Portkeys. Thoughts? Mrs. M From yellows at aol.com Sat May 31 16:16:52 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:16:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors kiss Message-ID: <0E623EA0.4D5FD40A.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59038 In a message dated 5/31/2003 9:49:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, Grace writes: << It could be that a person kissed by a Dementor is more dangerous. We don't know what happens to them after the kiss, do we? I would think a person without a soul has nothing to lose and therefore cares about little. Sociopathic; the axe murderer, serial killer... without a soul and without a > heart. That sounds pretty scary to me.>> So, is the idea here that Barty Jr. could now be even more dangerous than before? Since LV plans to enlist the Dementors for his own cause, will this mean that Barty Jr. will become a stronger ally for LV because of the Dementor's Kiss? Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Sat May 31 16:20:47 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:20:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort/Lily [was: Sympathy for Voldemort?] Message-ID: <601E01A7.17749B3C.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59039 In a message dated 5/31/2003 4:56:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, Nic writes: <> Or, what if LV asked her to step aside because he realized her protection of the baby was dangerous to him? Of course, in GoF, he admits that that hadn't occured to him at the time... Yes, I think I like the idea that he has Mom issues and he, despite being evil, didn't want to murder a mother who was trying to save her baby. Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Sat May 31 16:32:14 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:32:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville and Harry (was A Harry Failure) Message-ID: <7EFD30E9.1E52931F.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59040 In a message dated 5/30/2003 9:38:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, Linda writes: <> I absolutely agree with you. (bet you didn't see that one coming, did you?) :) I think Neville needs to find himself, after spending many distressing years as a child when his parents didn't know him, and his extended family openly expressed a fear that he may lack magical skill. I think, too, that it is possible the trauma from having parents who don't recognize him may be part of the reason Neville has such a hard time building any self-confidence. But I see Harry, Ron, and Hermione trying to encourage him to stand on his own two feet as a parent would to a child. They don't seem to view him as an equal. He's like a younger kid who needs guidance. And they, being good people who generally like Neville, provide him guidance and support when he needs it most. Even Harry admits to himself in GoF that he didn't think of Neville enough in the last four years to wonder why his grandparents brought him up. For these reasons, I believe that Harry, Ron, and Hermione overlook Neville a lot in the series. And I believe that Neville will shock them all when he proves to be a better wizard than any anyone would have guessed by Book 7. :) Go, Neville! Brief Chronicles From rstephens at northwestern.edu Sat May 31 17:01:13 2003 From: rstephens at northwestern.edu (rachelbeth007) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:01:13 -0000 Subject: Bet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "emmajess29" < cassandre.lamaudite at l...> wrote: > Hello ! > > I've got a question : during the quidditch world cup, fred and george > won a bet that was very unlikely. Does anyone have clue of how they > managed that ? > > EmmaJess *** As huge Quidditch fans, I think Fred and George realized how great the whole Ireland team is, and that Viktor Krum is probably the best Seeker playing in the Cup. It seems Bulgaria got to the finals on the (slouched) shoulders of Krum, winning every match due to the points gained from the snitch. Ireland's Seeker probably always got the snitch as well, but his team was probably well on their way to winning already. Here's what Harry says about it: "He knew they were never going to catch up! The Irish Chasers were too good. . . . He wanted to end it on his terms, that's all. . . ." (GoF US 112) I think the twins would realize that Krum would rather catch the snitch and lose than not catch it at all. Its quite apparent that the Irish team will continue to score at will and increase its lead exponentially, so Krum has no qualms about ending the match when the score will be close. Another reason for the unusual bet might be the fact that it is so unlikely. Bagman says "I'll give you excellent odds on that one." (Gof US 89). Thus, the twins will get a greater return on their bet than if they had just picked Ireland to win. I'm not the sports betting expert, but I think in the case of a huge favorite (which I think Ireland was on the strength of their complete team), the odds are so great that you have to bet a ton of money to get any return. Like horse racing when you have 1-3 odds , you have to bet $300 to get a $100 return if your horse wins. (I hope that's right, please correct me if I'm wrong). To sum up, the twins know Quidditch enough to recognize that Ireland is the superior team but that Krum is the superior Seeker. They want to make a bet that will give them a nice return on their investment. Thus, they go with the unusual bet and would've made good money back had Bagman not been such a punk (though I think they'll take the 1000 Galleons from Harry anyday). Rach From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat May 31 17:09:58 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:09:58 +0000 Subject: (FILK) They're Being Cruel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59042 They're Being Cruel (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _She's Leaving Home_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle13.html The Midi has is different from the original song (specifically, an few extra lines added in the last stanza that shouldn't be there...man, I hate when that happens!) Harry (Gryffindor Chorus): Every Friday at two o'clock we have Potions class I dread the time spent in the dungeons Double Potions with all those Slytherins We went downstairs where we found all the Slytherins waiting there Standing outside of the classroom door Their taunting's hard to ignore (They) Everyone wearing badges (Are being) "Support Cedric Diggory" badges (Cruel) That also flash "Potter Stinks" back at me They're being cruel, I feel just like a fool It makes me angry Draco insults Hermione and calls her, "Moodblood" We pull our wands out and cast curses Granger and Goyle get it right in their faces Snape comes 'round and asks in a deadly voice, "What is going on?" "Potter attacked me," Draco then cried Goyle's face is filled with fungi (Snape) Snape will not listen to us (Is always) He favors them over us (Cruel) Snape then sent Goyle to the infirmary Snape will act cruel although this little duel Wasn't started by me Ronald then says to Snape, "Malfoy hit Hermione!" Slowly Snape turns his greasy haired head Paused and, "I see no difference," he said (He) What Snape said was so wrong (Is being) He shouldn't have treated her wrong (Cruel) A professor shouldn't behave like him Snape's being cruel, I don't know why this school Puts up with him They're being cruel Slytherins -Gail B...who didn't want the week to go by without posting a filk. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jhlupin at hotmail.com Sat May 31 17:14:48 2003 From: jhlupin at hotmail.com (jhlupin) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:14:48 -0000 Subject: Will the real Lupin please stand up... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > That's not the "only" logical reason. Another reason could include > that he is a werewolf and may not want to be around Harry when he > changes. JH: Sorry, this one isn't logical. He could avoid Harry for a week or so each month, and the rest of the time, he could have contact with Harry and Harry would be safe. > Another could be that the protections surrounding Harry at the > Dursley's also effect Lupin. JH: This may absolutely be true, but does not refute the switching theory. Likely Harry's whereabouts were hidden from all but AD, RH, MM, Mrs. Figg, and those charged with his protection/containment. The WW knew Harry had survived but it there is no evidence his whereabouts were widely known. > Another is that no one contacted Harry before he turned 11, so why > should Lupin? > Another is that Lupin was doing something for DD or the Ministry and > was out of contact. > > Another is that Lupin was searching for a cure (the potion that Snape > made) and was occupied. JH: The switching theory is not predicated on the fact that anyone should or should not have approached Harry before age 11, or even while at Hogwarts, or even had something better to do at the time. It simply falls into the known facts fairly well. Again this is all logical for why Lupin didn't approach Harry before he came to Hogwarts as DADA teacher, but it doesn't explain his reactions to Harry at times in PoA. > That book also overlooks some key points in jumping to its > conclusions in other areas and ignores discussing points that would > refute the author's predictions (portkeys and time specificity for > example). JH: I'm not prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet. > I will be very disappointed if that is indeed how it turns out. > Harry should not be Job where he gets everything back at the end. > Harry is an orphan and should stay that way. Makes any resolution > much more profound. And keeps the message that loss is permanent. JH: We know that JKR likes the character of Lupin, he is in fact one of her most favorite characters besides HP, RW, & HG. And that someone who is a "special fan" of Harry's bites it in OoP. It is someone whose death was hard for her to write. What if Harry doesn't get ? What if he loses his father again? He has brief elation that his Dad is still alive but tragedy soon follows and he loses him again, reinforcing the . Or I could be completely wrong and likely am... JHL From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat May 31 18:11:41 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 19:11:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Money issues References: <1054337708.4154.88377.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003101c327a0$165ab5c0$737d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 59044 Ray wrote > Since there are bank vaults with physical coins, I suspect that the WW banks > (if there *is* any bank besides Gingott's) work on the system that their > service is storage only. No interest, no paper money, and no checks as we > understand them. Under the proper circumstances, however, they will honor a written > authorization to "remove money from my vault and pay it to" a specified person. > Theoretically, Gringott's has methods of authenticating such a document. The only help we have from the books on this is that we know that Gringotts employ one of the Weasleys as a curse breaker. What that suggests to me is that they are constantly on the look out for gold and/or other precious metals. If the crucial thing about the bank is that you get magical interest on your deposit then it could explain why they are so keen to get more specie - because coin is the only form of money in the WW, there is no paper, cheques, etc as you rightly say. Magical interest is also a useful device to explain things like Harry's inheritance, where Hogwarts gets its running costs, where Lucius Malfoy gets the family fortune, and so on! > Also, IMNSHO, JKR may simply be too unsure of her economics to try to make a > point of how wealth and poverty works in the WW. Note that, in the scene Only to highlight that it exists - there are several references for example to how low wages are in the MoM. > where Harry meets Draco Malfoy in PS/SS, they are buying custom-fitted robes, but > no mention is made of payment. Are the robes part of the school tuition, or > did JKR simply not want to make up a figure for the cost? Arthur and Molly One thought that has crossed my mind is what happens when the Muggle parents of a potential Hogwarts student are truly on the breadline and unable even to get their child to Kings Cross station, leave alone buy all the books, robes, accessories, and so on? (I'm thinking not even of someone like Colin's dad, who is working though on a low wage, but let's say a single parent on Income Support) My (entirely non-canonical) suggestion is that the parent just doesn't get a letter. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From jodel at aol.com Sat May 31 18:23:14 2003 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:23:14 EDT Subject: Percy and the Weasleys' finances Message-ID: <1e2.a1363c5.2c0a4d12@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59045 Eric writes: > Although it would be _nice_ if Percy were to contribute to the Weasley > family finances, what makes you think they'd accept it from him? > And what makes you think that Percy can afford it anyway? The boy is in his *first* job. And that job is in the "executive fast-tack". Now, that level of job is a cut above most school-leaver's first jobs, and it does pay better than the general run of them, but not that much better, and it's also one with a *high* overhead in presenting the right appearance and meeting others' social expectations, and he comes from a family who isn't able to speed him on his way in any material sense at all. It's all got to come out of his salary, and it all has to be done at once. If he contributes to the family grocery fund (and I suspect that he does, at least to some extent, so long as he is actually living at home) every additional knut has three places to go between dressing the part, joining in "power lunches" with the Ministry higher-ups and all the other such hidden costs of his position. He's not even taking his girlfriend out to Diagon Alley these days, and probably because he can't afford it. It wasn't until his promotion to Crouch's personal assistant around Christmas time that he had a bit more of the ready and was able to invest in some formal robes (which, in the executive fast-track are a business expense -- we're not talking about flipping burgers here) and possibly contribute a bit more to the family coffers -- which Ron and Harry would know nothing about since they were at school and it's hardly the sort of thing that Molly would make a point of writing to tell Ron about (although she may concievably have tweaked the twins' noses with it -- and Ron was back with Harry by then and wouldn't have heard of it that way, either). By the end of the school year it has all come crashing down about him and his salary has probably been set back to where it was originally. And the kid isn't even 20 yet and has no experience in managing money (when has he ever had any?), he's probably barely keeping his head above water. -JOdel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Sat May 31 18:26:02 2003 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (FlamingStar Chows) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:26:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bet References: Message-ID: <000e01c327a2$182578c0$ef11570c@pavilion> No: HPFGUIDX 59046 From: emmajess29 I've got a question : during the quidditch world cup, fred and george won a bet that was very unlikely. Does anyone have clue of how they managed that ? --Me-- I just think they really know their Quidditch teams and seekers. THey are great fans. I don't believe any of the theories that they time-traveled or anything else to know the outcome. ~Cathy~ From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 19:02:04 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 19:02:04 -0000 Subject: Someone Else's Failure?(smallOOP spoiler at the end) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59047 There has been a lot of discussion on Harry needing to experiance failure in order to grow. A lot of posters have made the point that Harry is fully aware of the fact that he is infallible and I happen to agree. I'm not convincerd that it is necessary for Harry to *fail*. There has also been a lot of speculation about Dumbledore's death and how it may be necessary for him to die in order for Harry to do what he needs to. I don't think that Dumbledore himself needs to die in order for this to happen. IMO, what needs to *die* is Harry's belief in Dumbledore's ability to always fix things. If something huge and awful happens that Dumbledore can't rectify in some way, I think that it will change Harry's perspective immensly. (I'm not counting the death of Cedric in this category because I don't think Harry would.) We get a hint of how importasnt it is that Hary thinks of Dumbledore as a safty net in PoA. "Harry stared in to the grave face and felt as though the ground beneath him were falling sharply away. He had grown used to the idea that Dumbledore could solve anything. He had expected Dumbledore to pull some amazing solution out of the air. But no...their last hope was gone." (CH 21) Immediately following the quote Dumbledore told HH to use the time turner and Harry's belief in Dumbledore was restored, but I think that was the beginning. In GoF, Dumbledore can't take Harry out of the tournament- another example that he can't solve everything. As for the heavily discussed gleam in Dumbledore's eyes coupled with him looking tired and worn, I think that passage in GOF is JK's way of lettin gus know that Hrray is sarting to see Dumbledore as a great man with huge burdens who just can't solve everything. I think that realization was as much of a blow to Harry as what happened in the cemetary. -Linda From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Sat May 31 19:10:26 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors kiss In-Reply-To: <004601c32783$d800dc80$134053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: <20030531191026.5670.qmail@web13115.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59048 Grace wrote (in response to bboy_mn) and others: <<>> And now me (Odile): I was thinking that a person who has been Dementor Kissed gets turned into a Zombie - maybe not the classic brain-eating kind, but a "living dead" entity just the same. Another question: what happens to people who have been Dementor Kissed? They don't become Dementors per se, as Lupin said, so do they go to Azkaban? St. Mungo's? Zombie-land? Odile, ^_^ From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat May 31 20:02:56 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:02:56 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's successor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paulanurse2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Linda" wrote: > > Tyler wrote: > > > > > > > > There's reasons to believe that Snape WOULD be made > > > > headmaster if DD died. > > > > > > > > Mel added: > > > > > It's not that far of a reach at all really. Snape (like it or > not) > > > has a history of taking control in a variety of situations. He's > > > certainly more pro-active than McG. and she's supposed to be the > > 2nd. > > > Paula (myself) adds: > > Surely not Snape. If this was the case, in CoS when DD was actually > removed by apparently (then) democratic means, Snape would have made > his move? McGonagall automatically became deputy head. However, I > suppose DD was still actually alive. Perhaps SS would be more > aggressive about assuming control of Hogwarts if DD were dead. Mel: Goodness! It wouldn't be a coup! "Make his move"? McGonnogal IS deputy Head and she took over in CoS with the distinct impression that the situation was temporary (from how I understood it). That, however was a very, very different situation to actually having Dumbledore DEAD and absolutely not coming back. In that case the succession, I believe, would be decided by the governors. It is certainly possible that they'd just slide her in as Headmistress, they do seem rather--wanting of spine. But we're talking about tricky times here, Having someone like Snape in charge would have its advantages. We don't know how the governors would act, really. I just see Snape as pro-active while MgG is re-active. What would the governors be looking for? Dunno. Mel From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 31 20:07:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:07:06 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: bboy_mn: Generally, I'm in agreement, but I'll still toss in a few comments. > Things I hope to see and not see in book 5 > > Enough with the Animagi. > Amen to that. We have all had fun speculating on various future animagi possibilities and generated some great discussions, but this trick pony has had his time on the stage and it's time for him to exist stage left. I could see the subject coming up again in the book in someway, but if one more object, animal, whatever is suddenly discovered to really be an animagus it will be too much. (Trevor=NO, Figg=NO, Hedwig=NO, Crookshanks=NO, Fawkes=really NO, Snape=NO, Dumbledore=maybe but not in a big way, etc...) JKR wove that thread into the story nicely and caught us all by suprise twice (Scabbers and Rita), but any more similar surprises would seem to be 'easy' writing; writing that solves mysteries just a little too easily and a little too lazily. The same is true with Polyjuice. It's fun to speculate about, but as far as future story lines that trick pony should have also left the stage. It might come up again, but if it takes a major or even significant part in any future plot I will be disappointed. > > No time travel. > Again, very obviously in agreement. Been there, done that. The subject of time travel could come up. And as fun as they might be to think about, I don't think Harry is his own time travel father, I don't think Dumbledore is really time travled Ron Weasley, I don't think Harry is Voldemort's time travel father, son, or whatever. Those we all very fun ideas, but any unusual theme like this that get's over used is just lazy writing. > > Tighter writing. > Book 4 was a real downer for me when I got to the end due to the > whole Portkey / specific activation time issue. Not because the > whole "Catch an early portkey" line was ignored, rather because it > didn't need a lot of effort to make it work. ...edited... Here, I have to disagree, I thought the writing in GoF was very good. I was emotionally moved by many parts. When Harry and Ron were mad at each other, everyone seemed to be against Harry, and everything seemed to be going wrong, I swear it nearly broke my heart. JKR has full knowledge of the workings of Portkeys, knowledge that goes beyond what she has written about i nthe books. We don't know that Portkeys can't be activated by a variety of different means. I don't see activation by time of day, or by touch as a contradiction or lazy writing. If I wanted to really rationalize it, I could see a way to twist event activation into the same thing as time activation. The TIME at which a portkey is activated is the time of day that has been preprogrammed, or the time of the occurance of an event. In Harry's case in the third task, the event was some one touching the cup. At the TIME of that touch, the key was activated. (Well, I did tell you that this was very rationalized.) More likely than my slightly twisted logic above, I just think there are a variety of way to program a portkey. In the after analysis, we can see possible inconsistencies in the use of the Portkey, but in the spontaneous reading of the book, I have no problem with it, and in the after the fact analysis, I can see reasonable explanations for it. So, I'm content. > Additionally, all that was needed was a line from Voldemort that > Harry's blood was no good to him unless he had a certain level of > skill as a wizard for his rebirth spell to work and the purpose of > having Harry in the Tournament is validated. > > ...edited... > > Back to my lurking ways. > > Chuck I assume in the paragraph above you are referring to the 'toothbrush' issue; why didn't Moody just enchant Harry toothbrush and send him to Voldemort rather than waiting the whole year and using the Tri-Wizard's Cup. Or perhaps you are referring to the need to use Harry's blood instead of any wizard who would qualify as a enemy of Voldemort's. Also, I'm unclear what you mean by, "Harry's blood was no good to him unless HE had a certain level of skill...". Does Harry's skill need to increase to a certain level or does Voldemort skill need to increase to a certain level. Either way, it would justify the delay. There has been a lot of discussion as to why Moody didn't enchant Harry's toothbrush or a quill. The problem with that are stealth, opportunity, and reliability. As far as reliability, if he uses time activation, how can he be sure Harry will be in contact with the object at that set time. If he uses touch activation, what happens if Harry says, 'Ron, hand me my toothbrush'. Then there is the opportunity to enchant a portkey spell on some object belonging to Harry. We have yet to see a teacher other than head of house in the dorms or commons room. It would have been very suspicious for Moody to be wandering around the Gryffindor tower. That plus students on different class schedules coming and going all day long wouod make it difficult to do undetected. Until he was sure the Dark Lord was back, Fake!Moody had to maintain his cover, so I don't see that he could risk taking Harry in person, or by enchanting one of Harry's personal objects. By eliminating all the competition in the third task, Moody could be reasonably sure that only Harry would touch the Cup. Also, there is a psychological factor. Moody/Voldemort snatches Dumbledore's champion right at the moment of triumph. What more spectacular way to come back. He steals the champion a the moment of triumph, kills the person who is responsible for his downfall, and sends that body back as a sign that the Dark Lord has returned. A classic spectacular dramatic evil overlord plan. And like most evil overlord plans, hopely doomed by excess ego and short sightedness. Noce talking to you. Don't be a stranger. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat May 31 20:10:08 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:10:08 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" wrote: > Things I hope to see and not see in book 5 > > Enough with the Animagi. > So there's this registration thing we're told. So being an Animagi > is very rare we're told. Keep it so. No Neville the fish. >No Snape the vampire. No Mrs. Figg the Crookshanks. Let RitaSkeeter be the ast one. Time to move on to a new plot device. > > No time travel. > > Tighter writing. > Book 4 was a real downer for me when I got to the end > > That smells of rushed writing to me (and validated IMHO by the Lily / > James emergence issue). > > The book is later than was planned. Let's hope that means quality > control was turned up a notch. Will I get in huge trouble if I just yell real loud DITTO!!!!! I couldn't have said it better myself. I want a nice, tight, finely tuned like PoA page turner. I think I skimmed half of GoF. I was also disappointed by the GLARING wand order error. That was not just rushed writing--it was rushed editing as well. (Neville the fish! ) Mel, looking forward and dreading at the same time. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat May 31 20:18:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:18:45 -0000 Subject: Dementors kiss In-Reply-To: <004601c32783$d800dc80$134053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grace Saalsaa" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > Lose of the soul I think is the same as the lose of your basic > humanity. ... you go from being a human to being a mammal. > ...edited... You are reduced to being a very sad, pathetic, > marginally intelligent, marginally functional 'dog'. > > > Grace: > > Ah, but you assume that dogs have no soul. ... I think they *do* > have a soul. It just isn't a human's soul. > > ...edited... bboy_mn now responds: Actually I was thinking the same thing which is why I didn't just day a 'dog', I said, "...a very sad, pathetic, marginally intelligent, marginally functional 'dog'", and adled, senile, decrepid dog. I like Odile's idea better (see next post in thread=59048). People who are kissed become Zombies; the living dead. They are able to function. They can probably stand, walk, eat, sleep, and in a primitive animal like way, deal with 'bodily function', but they have no will, no thought, no desire, and no sense of self or conciousness; all higher brain function is lost. They simply exist. Sad, very sad. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat May 31 20:37:50 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:37:50 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: <78CB7067.1456CFC5.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59053 Mark wrote: > <> And Brief Chronicles questioned: > You've got a good point. When Cedric turns the rock into a dog, if >we're all right that the essence of the original thing is what governs >its actions, then the dog ought to just sit there... like a rock. :) >Why doesn't it? Now me: I'll modify my original thoery based on this. When transfiguring from low to high complexity, the original intelligence of the object is maintained. However, some qualities can be added based on the "definition" of the new form. Let me see if I can explain what I mean by this. If one wanted to conjure a dog (a temporary one, of course), or tranfigure an object into a dog, I would think that person would need to know ahead of time exactly what is meant by "dog". In this case, dog = small, furry, the look of a specific breed, can run, bark. If basic behaviors are included in the original spell, they are added to the already persent intelligence of the object. It would be more like instinctive behavior. Therefore, Cedric's rock-dog has the intelligence of a rock (i.e. none) in a ddition to the qualities inherent to a dog (ability to run, bark, probably some other basic behaviors as well). Therefore, as soon as the tranfiguration is complete, the rock-dog began to randomly run around and bark (which is all Cedric needed it to do in the first place, create a distaction). I maintain my theory, supported by the "Quidditch through the Ages" quote I cited earlier, that an the brain is indeed tranfigured. So a human tranfigured into almost anything is going to lose intelligence. But an animal or object tranfigured into a more intelligent form has the potential to gain intelligence, if it is introduced to them (either by the spell itself or by later learning). -Corinth From carmenharms at yahoo.com Sat May 31 20:40:11 2003 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:40:11 -0000 Subject: Another potions expert? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59054 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ersatz Harry" wrote: > Just out of curiosity, who do you suppose is keeping Lupin supplied > with his werewolf prevention potion these days? Snape doesn't seem > like he'd be that willing to do do without a specific request from > Dumbledore... > Well, I (snazzzybird) believe that's exactly what happened! Dumbledore continues to have a soft spot for Remus Lupin, and I can't see him just abandoning Remus to the monthly danger and misery of his lycanthropy. I believe that Dumbledore has placed a standing order for the wolfsbane potion from his Potions Master, and that Snape grudgingly, with much dark muttering about "the werewolf", brews it up for him. --snazzzybird, who wouldn't mind being the post owl who makes THAT delivery! :-) From patricia at obscure.org Sat May 31 21:16:05 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sympathy for Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <33.3948fa50.2c075d43@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59055 On Thu, 29 May 2003 CareALotsClouds at aol.com wrote: > To murder Voldemort, or to > arrest Voldemort would be discrimination since he is psychotic, would a sane > person kill hundreds of people? Aren't killers there days that kill and kill > known to be insane? Whats so different about Voldemort? Actually, serial killers are frequently imprisoned or put to death here in the US. The standards for legal insanity vary from state to state, but in no state does the mere fact that someone committed murder, even repeatedly, mean that that person is necessarily insane and thus exempt from incarceration or execution. That said, let me address CareALotsClouds' point as a whole. I do feel a bit sorry for Tom Riddle because of his lousy childhood. It can't have been easy, and I feel his pain. However, I don't think his rotten childhood rendered him psychotic in any clinical sense. There *are* other reasons to kill besides pathological mental instability -- revenge or personal gain, for instance. Riddle/Voldemort seems to me to be more like Stalin or Milosevic or any number of other power-hungry political and military leaders who have used murder and disappearances to solidify their hold over the societies they wish to control. CareALotsClouds, do you really think that every such dictator is insane and not responsible for their actions? Like other dictators (or would-be dictators), Voldemort kills because it serves his interests to do so, simple as that. I don't think he is insane, and therefore I don't think it is inappropriate to punish him for his crimes. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From patricia at obscure.org Sat May 31 21:31:48 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors kiss In-Reply-To: <004601c32783$d800dc80$134053d1@DJF30D11> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59056 On Sat, 31 May 2003, Grace Saalsaa wrote: > It could be that a person kissed by a Dementor is more dangerous. We don't > know what happens to them after the kiss, do we? I would think a person > without a soul has nothing to lose and therefore cares about little. > Sociopathic; the axe murderer, serial killer... without a soul and without a > heart. That sounds pretty scary to me. It seems unlikely to me that the MoM would use the Dementor's Kiss as a punishment for DEs, as they intended to do for Sirius Black, if the kiss was going to make the DE *more* dangerous. My impression was that imprisonment with the Dementors was the first line of punishment, and when Black showed he could not be reliably kept in prison the MoM turned to the Kiss to "defang" him and render him harmless to the wizarding world. Leaving him with all his brains and powers but removing his conscience would hardly seem to fit the bill. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" From j.oramous at verizon.net Sat May 31 17:18:22 2003 From: j.oramous at verizon.net (Jenn) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 12:18:22 -0500 Subject: money issues In-Reply-To: <1054363906.5159.69194.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59057 >the Sergeant Majorette says: >If Weasley senior can't afford the finer things of wizarding life on >his Minister's salary, it's not likely that Percy, on his entry-level >salary, can. Besides, as others have pointed out, Charlie and Bill >don't. Hi, I am new here. And I have been enjoying all your great ideas and theories. You got some really great ones. But I have been thinking on this one in particular. What if the Weasleys chose to live as they do? This is something they teach their children so Bill and Charlie would chose to live similarly. They always seem to have money when they need it and as someone else (sorry don't remember who) had mentioned can even afford the occasional guest. They don't want to put on airs as Malfoy does, not to say they have the same amount of money that Malfoy does. They just have a different view of what is important in life. As seen in CoS (US paperback p.62) when Arthur says that he and Malfoy have a "very different idea of what disgraces the name of Wizard," I would assume that this would carry over into life in general. It would also make sense for the Weasley's to have to stretch the money they have (more than Malfoy) because they have 4 or 5 kids (depending on the year) that they are buying school things for and Malfoy only has Draco. Anyway...that is my two Knuts! Thanks for the great thoughts! Jenn From yellows at aol.com Sat May 31 18:04:41 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:04:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information Message-ID: <2A8F9ED0.4CD35BB1.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59058 In a message dated 5/31/2003 10:37:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mrs. M writes: < are simply many different kinds of Portkeys. Thoughts?>> I found this distracting in GoF as well. The Portkey was so well-defined during the travel to the QWC, and yet one of the major rules seemed forgotten by the end of the novel. When the Weasley party had to *wait* until a determined time for the Portkey to transport them, but the Triwizard championship cup apparently allowed anyone who touched it -- at any time -- to go back and forth, I was confused. I decided to tell myself that Harry's Portkey at the end of GoF was a generic Portkey, that just allowed for travel back and forth from one place to another at any old time. And the QWC Portkey was designed to open only at *specific* times, to prevent Muggles from stumbling across them and being transported. If a QWC Portkey opens only at one moment, the chance of Muggles being transported by accident is cut dramatically. Brief Chronicles From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 22:12:03 2003 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the portkey issue In-Reply-To: <1054411633.4452.65088.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030531221203.7584.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59059 I also think that Portkeys can be programmed different ways, depending on their application. Obviously, if several people have to travel with the same portkey, like in the case when they go the QWC, it would be too much to expect everyone to touch it at the same time. I'm convinced that, if it weren't because of the congestion at the arrival place in that particular case, they could hold on to the portkey and then enchant it to transport them at that very moment, instead of pre-programming it. But if just one person wants to travel by portkey (can't apparate, no floo available, or allergic to the powder, who knows, no brooms, etc) they could enchant it to travel when they touched it. Why not? Maria, who likes the concept of Portkeys and wishes she could travel from the US to her home in Spain that easily, and who would rather be rereading GoF than working on a big project right now ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat May 31 22:41:36 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:41:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hopes for Book 5 Message-ID: <42.3909ffd4.2c0a89a0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59060 I personally hope that we see *why* people do things, not just what they do. I like knowing motives behind what people do. I absolutely *kills* me that we do not know why Dumbledore did what he did in the infamous first year Leaving Feast (I won't start, I promise!). I would like to know why: 1. Petunia hates magic. Was it jealousy? Hatred? 2. Dumbledore did what he did at the Leaving Feast. 3. Snape "hates" Harry. There are alot of other things I would like to know. Does anyone else wonder what happened to the centaurs? They were a semi-significant part of PS, and then they disappeared. If I see another illegal Animagus, I might shoot the book. (Although I don't think that would help...). I could take a little more Polyjuice though. Maybe just an offhand reference, like someone telling Harry that the Ministry is using Polyjuice to look for LV. I also wanna see Harry and Ron quit Divinitation! Down with Trelawney! The real seers are Fred and George! ^_^ No really...I want to see them quit that class. The only reason for them to stay around is to see if Trelawney makes any more real predictions. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat May 31 22:54:30 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:54:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Money issues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59061 manawydan at ntlworld.com writes: > One thought that has crossed my mind is what happens when the Muggle > parents > of a potential Hogwarts student are truly on the breadline and unable even > to get their child to Kings Cross station, leave alone buy all the books, > robes, accessories, and so on? (I'm thinking not even of someone like > Colin's dad, who is working though on a low wage, but let's say a single > parent on Income Support) My (entirely non-canonical) suggestion is that the > parent just doesn't get a letter. I suspect that was one of the questions, if not THE question, over which the founders of Hogwarts broke up. Salazar Slytherin, who didn't want muggle-borns trained *at all* would certainly have suggested the "no letter" policy. But I suspect that the others thought that the most important thing is to give young wizards and witches the training they need to prosper, whether they can afford to pay or not. I'm reasonably certain that "tuition assistance" is available at Hogwarts, even to the point of waiving the fees entirely, and providing books, uniforms, etc. We know that each student is mailed a ticket for the Hogwarts express. Indicating that Hogwarts pays for the train trip, so they might also send a staff member or alumnus to provide transportation *to* the train. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 19:53:13 2003 From: chuck_richie_99 at yahoo.com (Chuck) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 19:53:13 -0000 Subject: Will the real Lupin please stand up... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59062 > The switching theory is not predicated on the fact that > anyone should or should not have approached Harry before age > 11, or even while at Hogwarts, or even had something better to > do at the time. It simply falls into the known facts fairly well. > Again this is all logical for why Lupin didn't approach Harry > before he came to Hogwarts as DADA teacher, but it doesn't > explain his reactions to Harry at times in PoA. Therefore, it's not the "only" logical reason. My beef is with the word, "only." Not the theory in general. > What if Harry > doesn't get ? What if he loses his father > again? He has brief elation that his Dad is still alive but tragedy > soon follows and he loses him again, reinforcing the message that loss is permanent>. But, in this case, there is no permanence. He lost him again. Why can't he regain him again? Dead should be dead (not ghost dead that is). Chuck From christianrooster at hotmail.com Sat May 31 21:27:15 2003 From: christianrooster at hotmail.com (Mark) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 21:27:15 -0000 Subject: Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" > wrote: > > Things I hope to see and not see in book 5 > > > > Enough with the Animagi. > > ... > > No time travel. > > > > Tighter writing. > I agree What about the other plot devices, such as "memory charms". In a sense, magic itself is a plot device too as much as Animagi or Time Travel. It's quite easy to say "Oh, there's this potion that does this...". Even so, actually I disagree with you both. I see high hopes for these plot devices in book 5 and I hope JKR takes full advantage of them. For instance, in many cases you see references to animal characteristics in various people - Neville, when McG transfigures into a cat. I wonder if all wizards have some animal connection. Maybe it's just a slight genetic mutation that keeps some people from retaining the magical abilities, and another that creates new wizards from "muggle" parents. Wouldn't that be interesting? Or Memory Charms - Imagine the things we could learn if someone, perhaps some smart young Hogwarts student, discovers a safe cure for a memory charm? (besides learning how wizards invent new spells). Imagine the consequences to the upcoming "war"! I can't think of anything hinted to in Canon using Time Travel, but you get the idea. There is much potential in what's been put forth in the first 4 books. Given the creative author we have, I have high hopes that JKR will find something quite interesting to say in Book 5 - and I shall not be diappointed. All I hope for is that June 21st, Midnight comes quickly. And I'll be able to stay up all night reading.... :) Mark From risako at nexusanime.com Sat May 31 23:08:15 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:08:15 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: money issues References: Message-ID: <020b01c327c9$8521cb00$46836395@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 59064 Jenn said: > What if the Weasleys chose to live as they do? This is something they teach > their children so Bill and Charlie would chose to live similarly. They > always seem to have money when they need it and as someone else (sorry don't > remember who) had mentioned can even afford the occasional guest. They don't > want to put on airs as Malfoy does, not to say they have the same amount of > money that Malfoy does. They just have a different view of what is important > in life. Well, I agree that the Weasleys and the Malfoys have two very different value systems, but the Malfoys are obviously quite well off, since Lucius can afford to buy Draco a spot on the Slytherin Quidditch team. There's a scene in one of the books (I looked, but I can't find it at the moment) where Harry and the Weasleys are at Gringotts and the Weasleys have only a very small pile of sickles and knuts in their vault, and not even a single galleon. The last bit of GoF chapter 10, Mayhem at the Ministry, also shows that the Weasleys are really quite poor. It's possible that they're choosing to live as they do in the sense that they're not taking on higher-paying jobs to make more money, but they're certainly not wealthy people choosing to live in a less ostentatious way than they could afford to. Melissa From yellows at aol.com Sat May 31 22:21:48 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:21:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors kiss Message-ID: <144.129a2c59.2c0a84fc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59065 In a message dated 5/31/2003 5:32:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Patricia writes: < > punishment for DEs, as they intended to do for Sirius Black, if the kiss > was going to make the DE *more* dangerous. >> This is a very good point, but we must also consider that Dumbledore talked to Cornelius Fudge about what Dumbledore sees as a huge mistake in using Dementors to guard Death Eaters in the first place. If we trust Dumbledore's judgement, then we must *mistrust* the Ministry of Magic's judgement, which means it could easily be possible that the Dementor's Kiss will ultimately benefit Voldemort's side in the end. Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Sat May 31 20:46:16 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 16:46:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Transfiguration Question Message-ID: <6164DBCA.4D687AEC.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 59066 In a message dated 5/31/2003 3:37:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Corinth writes: <> :) Okay, so by that we must infer that Cedric's rock is now just sitting there, thinking about what it was like to once be a dog. :) How strange. And how oddly inhumane. :) Brief Chronicles From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sat May 31 23:08:58 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (Linda) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 23:08:58 -0000 Subject: Portkey mystery? - incomplete lexicon information In-Reply-To: <2A8F9ED0.4CD35BB1.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59067 Brief Chronicals wrote: > I decided to tell myself that Harry's Portkey at the end of GoF was a generic Portkey, that just allowed for travel back and forth from one place to another at any old time. And the QWC Portkey was designed to open only at *specific* times, to prevent Muggles from stumbling across them and being transported. If a QWC Portkey opens only at one moment, the chance of Muggles being transported by accident is cut dramatically.> Linda: I like this theory quite a bit. It makes a lot of sense. I even have another supporting argument for it. In addition to attempting to prevent muggles from using the QWC portkey accidentally, I would think they would want to keep wizards from accidentally activating it as well. I have two reasons for this. First, all the portkeys for the QWC led to the same destination point. Imagine the chaos if there was no time schedule and everybody tried to use them at the same time.(I'm sure everyone that was apparating had a set time to do that as well.) Second, think about the scene in which the Weasleys and HH used the portkey at the top of the hill. Amos Diggory found it and picked it up. If it had been set to activate by touch alone, he would have gone of to the tournament by himself, leaving the Weasley party and Cedric behind. I would think that whenever there is an event that calls for a group of people to use the same portkey, it would be necessary for there to be a set time of activation. IMO, there must be a variation of the portkey creating spell that adds the time factor and the version that Crouch Jr used on the cup was a more basic enchantment. -Linda-just my two nuts From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat May 31 23:30:14 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 23:30:14 -0000 Subject: Transfiguration Question In-Reply-To: <6164DBCA.4D687AEC.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59068 I wrote: > < But an animal or object tranfigured into a more intelligent form has the potential to gain intelligence, if it is introduced to them (either by the spell itself or by later learning).>> And Brief Chronicles replied: > :) Okay, so by that we must infer that Cedric's rock is now just sitting there, thinking about what it was like to once be a dog. :) How strange. And how oddly inhumane. :) Me agin: A real pet rock. :) But I don't think so. Being that a rock has no brain, any thoughts and abilities gained while in dog form would be lost when returned to its original form. So no, I don't think there are tea kettles and needles and other objects sitting around Hogwarts angrily plotting revenge for being given animal life and then returned to inanimate object state. :) I suppose my little thoery doesn't quite work going the other way, though. From what we saw with Draco the ferret, it seems that thigs return to their previous state when retransfigured, regardless of the effects of the original transfiguration. -Corinth, who hopes this little detail is clarified in a future book, because it's really beginning to bug me. :) From patricia at obscure.org Sat May 31 23:44:57 2003 From: patricia at obscure.org (Patricia Bullington-McGuire) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 19:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hopes for Book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 59069 On Sat, 31 May 2003, Chuck wrote: > Things I hope to see and not see in book 5 > > Enough with the Animagi. > So there's this registration thing we're told. So being an Animagi > is very rare we're told. Keep it so. No Neville the fish. No Snape > the vampire. No Mrs. Figg the Crookshanks. Let Rita Skeeter be the > last one. Time to move on to a new plot device. In all fairness, vampires are fundamentally different creatures than animagi, so if Snape turns out to be one it wouldn't be the same old 'unregistered animagus' gimmick once again. I do hope we get to see a vampire eventually since there have been so many mentions of them in the books, but I'm not particularly fond of the notion that Snape is one. I don't feel a compelling need to ever see a new animagus in the series though. Other than that, I think your post is spot on. ---- Patricia Bullington-McGuire The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad"