[HPforGrownups] Re: Teachers and fairness (WAS Is Snape unfair with House Points? )

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 56686

On 1 May 2003 at 1:04, jenny_ravenclaw wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...> 
> wrote:
>  
> > I remember having many teachers like Snape at school, and I thank 
> God every day I did. Yes, I had to endure their cutting remarks, and 
> sometimes that hurt. But they taught me to think in ways that other 
> teachers never had. They ignited a fire of learning in me that burns 
> brightly. I didn't come out of their classes afraid, I came out of 
> them enraged and wanting to show them what I could do.>
> 
> This is exactly where I think Snape goes wrong and where I can 
> understand why so many people here think Snape should be fired.  Snape 
> picks on students because he can. 

How do we know that, though? How can we see his motivations, how can we identify 
why he does what he does? We see things, mostly, the way Harry sees them - and 
that's not something I think can be relied on. It's something I've been thinking about in 
recent weeks. Basically because I found in a University library, a history of one of the 
schools I attended, written only a couple of years ago which covers the period I was 
there. I had two Snapish teachers at that school. One I quite liked despite his Snape-like 
qualities, the other I roundly detested. Interestingly in the book, both are described, and 
reading those descriptions from an adult perspective, I found myself looking back on 
both the men far more fondly than I did 15 years ago. I got an insight into their 
philosophy, into what they were trying to do, what motivated them.

In the case of the one I despised - well, I'm still rather ambivalent to him. Reading about 
him, I can see what he *tried* to do - I don't think he succeeded, I still don't think I 
benefitted much from having him as a teacher *but* I can see his motivations, his 
intentions, his ideals were good ones. I could never have seen that when I was at school 
(he taught me when I was 13) and I never did. 

The thing is, with Snape, we can only infer his motives. We really are in the position of 
the child trying to assess their teacher and I'm certainly not confident we have enough 
information to make firm judgements. If we could see into his head (get a Pensieve into 
his room perhaps and wait until he's used it a few months) this would be a clearer cut 
issue, IMHO. 

> He may not like being a teacher, 
> but he does enjoy teaching and he loves the authority he has in the 
> classroom.  He likes it so much that he confuses insulting and 
> intimidating students with teaching.  Shaun, you may have been 
> motivated by Snape-like teachers, but most students are not.  The 
> teachers in my past who picked on me made me feel terrible.  I never 
> wanted to participate in their classes and now, as a teacher, I can't 
> tell you how many times my students have approached me to complain 
> about another teacher treating them unfairly.  I am shocked to hear of 
> some of the things teachers have actually said to students.  It makes 
> me understand why so many NYC kids don't want to stay in school.  

Sure, and I am *not* denying for a moment that Snape is in a position to do a great deal 
of harm to a great many people. And I am not saying that my experiences are generally 
representative because I know they are not. But I had the experience of being forced to 
endure an education system that was based very much on the assumption that if 
something was good for most children, it was the way things should be done - and any 
exceptions could be ignored. As one of the constant exceptions, that was pretty soul 
destroying and it's left me with a very firm belief that if a teacher is getting through to 
*ANY* of the kids in their class, their existence is worthwhile. Education shouldn't be 
based on averages, and what's right for most children. It should be based on individuals, 
on finding ways that are right for every child. Practically speaking, of course, 
compromises have to be made and it generally makes sense for those to tend to the 
average and the majority - but it's not ideal and when discussing Hogwarts, we don't 
really have to deal with practicalities. Dumbledore probably has to - we don't (-8

> It is not Snape's job to "toughen up" his students.  It is his job to 
> teach them how to brew successful potions.  

One moment! This is not what I meant at all. I certainly do not believe it's Snape's job to 
toughen up his students, and a desire to toughen up kids is *NOT* the reason I think 
Snape-like teachers can have value. They can have value not because they make kids 
tough - but because the methods they use can be very effective in teaching. Some kids 
LEARN BETTER from teachers who exhibit Snape like characteristics. I was one of 
them. 

> It is also his job to know 
> how to work with his students, to assess their skills and to help them 
> strengthen their weaknesses while encouraging them to use their 
> strengths - positively, not negatively.  He knew he was terrifying 
> Neville and to me, that is quite an abuse of his position.  He also 
> knew, I am sure, that insulting Hermione would be the ultimate in 
> nasty actions, as all 14 year old girls are extremely self-conscious.  
> He knew exactly how to hit her where it hurts.

I certainly agree on Neville - and I think I made that clear in my own post. But I'm not so 
sure on Hermione. I had teachers humiliate me on a couple of occasions to great 
success educationally. It worked on me. And sometimes it worked when other methods 
had failed. If it had been constant, it probably would have killed me. But an occasional 
instance in an educational environment where I generally felt secure didn't do me any 
harm. I do think Snape crosses a line when he comments on Hermione's teeth - because 
that wasn't an educational situation, and he was dealing with somebody who was 
already distressed (with good reason). I do think Snape gets it *VERY* wrong at least 
once. But there are other instances, where I'm far less sure, and I don't think we can be 
sure yet. It took me until I was 28 and reading a book from a library to come to respect 
some of my teachers. My view until then was very different. When we look at Snape, we 
are dealing with limited perspective from limited maturity. And that's risky.

> Teachers should not be bullies.  It is not their job to use methods of 
> intimidation to get results from students.  I get some great work from 
> my students because I encourage them by smiling and by complimenting 
> them (I'm no pushover, though!), not by scowling and scaring the hell 
> out of them.  Snape can be a strict teacher who earns the respect of 
> his students by respecting them.  Right now, I see no evidence that he 
> respects them, and I'm not sure what lesson there is in that.

Well, let me say this. I had teachers who encouraged me by smiling and by 
complimenting me. And beyond the age of 8 years old, I didn't learn a thing in any of 
their classes. That wasn't what I needed, that wasn't what worked for me. It works for 
your pupils, great - and I'm learning those methods myself as a teaching student 
because I KNOW they work wonderfully for so many kids. But no single methods work 
for all kids. Some need something different - not all kids, and those who do, may only 
need it for a time. But sometimes.

And, for me, from age 13-15 or so, I needed Snape (actually I think I needed him at 8 - 
but I didn't encounter a teacher like that until I was 13). After that - things changed 
again.

How much did I need it? Well, let's put it this way. When I started at the school I went to 
at 13 and first encountered these teachers, I felt like Harry finding Hogwarts. It's one 
reason the books appealed to me so much when I came into contact with them - 
because those feelings were so real. That's how much I needed this, how much I wanted 
this. It gave me a place to learn as I needed to learn. It literally kept me alive. Now - not 
all the teachers there were pseudo-Snapes, just 2 out of the 10 or so I had contact with 
that year (and my favourite teacher was more McGonnagal like) - but having a couple 
among the others was a good mix for me. And it gave me back a life, and it gave me 
back some semblance of a childhood, and it gave me the fire to learn I'd lost in 4 years 
of teaching methods that were probably great for 90% of the kids around me, but were 
not right for me.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
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