[HPforGrownups] Re: Neville/Memory Charms

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 57321

Abigail asked:

> I don't see why you're so sure that Neville can't recover from a 
> memory charm (assuming he is under one). The Bertha Jorkins story 
> shows us that as far as recovering the memory itself, the memory does 
> still exist and therefore can be accessed. As to whether recovering 
> the memory necessarily entails the breakdown of the personality, I 
> really don't think that we have enough information on that. We don't 
> know whether Bertha lost her mind (that's how I understand Voldemort 
> refering to her as being of no further use) because of the torture as 
> such or because of the breaking of the memory charm. In any case, I 
> don't see why it should be impossible for a memory charm to be 
> removed benignently. (Especially by the wizard who cast it in the 
> first place.)  

Here's my thinking on this:

Barty Jr. tells us that the Memory Charm his father cast on Bertha was "too powerful . . . he said it damaged her memory permanently."

Neville's memory seems to be similarly damaged, i.e., his ability to remember is damaged, which is why many people think he was also the victim of a too-powerful Memory Charm.

Barty Jr. also says Voldemort "tortured [Bertha] until he broke through the Memory Charm."  This suggests that torture is *how* Voldemort broke the Memory Charm.  And when Voldemort tells Wormtail in GoF ch. 1 that "Memory Charms can be broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her," he implies that they're generally considered to be unbreakable.  There's also no suggestion that breaking through the charm to reach this particular memory of Bertha's had any effect on her forgetfulness in general. 

If Neville has been Memory Charmed, we know from the dementor on the train that their influence on deeply hidden memories doesn't seem to affect him, suggesting that it would take something very powerful -- and potentially further damaging -- to remove it.  I'd rather not see Neville further damaged, so I don't want his Memory Charm removed.  

> 
> Also, wouldn't it be a bit lame to have a memory charmed Neville who 
> *doesn't* recover his memory? Surely such a heavily built up lost 
> memory has to play an important part in the plot. Or do you expect 
> Neville to reveal it and then go insane as well? <shudder> 

My thinking is that the details of the Longbottoms' torture, including the Memory Charm, will be revealed by someone else who has been concealing this information.  Or else, someone could successfully break through the Memory Charm for whatever purpose.  Either way, the effect on Neville will be profound; imagine being told that your disability was caused by a deliberate attack that was concealed from you all your life.

For better or for worse, Neville's personality has been shaped by the limitations of his own forgetfulness and by the constant reminders of what he *should* be, and even if his memory -- and the capacity for remembering -- were restored to their former state, he would still be Neville.  Moreover, since I think Neville's brain has been permanently damaged, as Bertha's was, I don't see how breaking through the charm would do anything for his forgetfulness.  He may develop coping strategies, and may become more confident as he matures.  But he will still be Neville.

> But to leave a Neville who is incomplete 
> psychologcially I think is almost as bad. After all, one of the main 
> themes of the books is growth and maturation. So, for me, it's highly 
> unlikely that Neville (if indeed he is memory charmed) will not 
> recover - both his lost memory and himself. I think that the parllel 
> is Harry/parents:Neville/parents. By the end of the series, Harry 
> will live on/[parents dead] and Neville will have healed mentally/
> [parents insane].
> 
I completely agree with the coming of age theme and nature of the parallel between Harry and Neville.  I think we differ here because I see the growth and maturation process for Neville as one of growing to understand and accept who he is, rather than recovering a missing element of personality.  Elkins eloquently argued long ago, in  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38398, that the idea of Neville's Memory Charm being removed so that he can take his place in the warrior wizarding culture defeats the essence of who Neville is.  For better or worse, Neville's personality has been shaped by his memory problems, and I think it would be a very tacky and unsatisfying resolution for Neville to end the series by recovering his memory and, as Elkins puts it, kicking DE butt.  IMO, that response to the revelation of negative background information will be left to the Weasleys (I *did* vote for the Missing Weasley Child in the OOP polls).  

In addition, for Neville to simply have his memory restored would not be, shall we say, *Bangy*?  The Bang would have to come in some sort of revelation about the Pensieve Four, about the crime, or, most likely, about Frank Longbottom himself which will destroy the image of sainthood Gran has been painting for Neville.  This would be the most difficult thing of all for Neville to face.  I expect that would also parallel to Harry, who will discover negative background about his own parents.  There's also a third parallel between Harry and Neville and their pasts; the obvious part of that is that both lost their parents at the hands of the DEs.  In addition, assuming Neville has a Memory Charm, it would mean that both he and Harry were marked in significant way in the episodes that caused them to lose their parents -- Harry through his scar, which appears to connect him to memories and information; and Neville through the Memory Charm which, in contrast, cuts him off from memories and connections he should have. 

If the memory theme that the Longbottoms exemplify is what I think it is, Neville's resolution will more resemble dealing with grief.   First, you must confront, then your emotions will take over (anger or depression, for example), then finally will come understanding and acceptance.  Harry is on a journey of exploration to find out who his parents are, but no magic he can do will ever bring them back.  For the theme to play itself out, Neville too must confront his past.  For now, the fact that he has told no one about his family suggests that he cannot face it himself.  But if the facts about Frank that he cannot face are a lie, the martyr'd hero will be unmasked in a huge ugly moment, and Neville will be forced to face it, and will do so in a way that will be very different from Harry's response to the gradual revelation of information about his own background. 

Debbie
another short response gone awry 

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