[HPforGrownups] Time Travel Paradoces

[Coble, Katherine]

No: HPFGUIDX 57759


> Mycropht wrote:
> > I'm new but have lurked for awhile.   I certainly don't mean to step on
> > anyone's toes, but it seems to me that there are a large number of
> theories
> > regarding the resolution of this story which involve time travel.
> 
> Lissa replied:
> Hi Mycropht.   I assume you're alluding, at least in part, to my
> (admittedly) ludicrous theory regarding Ginny and Harry being Tom M.
> Riddle's parents. 
Mycropht then says:
I guess maybe I was, but not intentionally.  I read through the various
theories with the acronyms in one sitting and many seemed to involve some
type of alteration on the time/space continuum.  


> Mycropht wrote:
> > [JKR] uses best-loved elements of myth, folklore, mystery
> > plays, modern romance and Tolkien.    I think that she has used time
> travel
> > as one device in one book.   She's been such a clever story teller for
> so
> > long that I don't see her returning to that particular Deux Ex Machina
> to
> > "solve" her overall story.   At least I hope not.   I've already been
> cruelly
> > duped by George Lucas and his The Universe Is One Big Happy Family B.S.
> I'd
> > like for the HP universe to be something more than Hagrid travelling
> back in
> > time to hatch V from a dragon's egg as a pet for Salazar Slytherin.
> 
> Lissa replied:
> 
> 
> I believe JKR *is* a clever storyteller who draws on rich fictional
> traditions, respects her main characters, and does not intend to cheat
> her readers.   I don't believe the time turner in PoA is a Deux Ex
> Machina.   Given that the novels are set
> in a magical universe, the overt introduction of time-travel at the end
> of the novel was not "forced and improbable".   (I'm referencing M. H.
> Abrams definition of Deux Ex Machina from _A Glossary of Literary Terms_
> here, but other definitions are readily available online.)
> 
Mycropht says:
Time travel _is_ a long accepted device in literature and I didn't really
have any problems with her using it in PoA, as far as that went, except that
it did seem forced.  I felt like she got away with it in PoA by setting it
up with Hermione's studies, but using it as a resolution for the entire
story bothered me.  I think of it as less improbable, more forced.

(American Heritage Dictionary Def. 3:  A person or event that provides a
sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.)   

Lissa again:
> I also believe that in the hands of a careful writer, time-travel can be
> used in a dignified way as part of an overall plot. 
> 
Then Me:
The only times I've seen time travel done well in literature is when it is
the point of the literature, not an ancillary device.   _A Wrinkle In Time_
did this very well.   And of course I've been a Dr. Who fan for 25 years.
Can't mess with the Time Lords.    However,  I start getting the willies
when authors monkey with time travel as part of a different and larger
story.  

Lissa says, and very well:

>    I would not,
> however, condemn someone else who used it as carefully as JKR appears to
> be in the Potter novels.
> 
> In my opinion, Rowling is a skilled writer who has given her readers
> ample warning that the Potterverse includes time travel.   
> 
Mycropht's wierd heebie-jeebies:

Okay, this is really difficult to explain, I think.  To me time travel books
are like spy novels or mystery novels.  They have a certain atmosphere.
When you sit down to read them you know that this book is going to use its
plot to explore the construct of the t/s continuum (T/SC).  That's cool with
me.   To me, personally, I don't think of the Potterverse as a T/SC book.
In my opinion when a writer uses time travel outside of a book about time
travel it becomes a forced device.   Take H.G. Wells.  _The Time Machine_
was about Time Travel.  You know that going into it.  All of the forth and
back that he does is well within the scope of the story.  However, say
you're reading _War of the Worlds_ and just as the Martians have laid waste
to Britain and begun feeding off of the good people of Bath someone finds
that there is a time-travel device inside the Martian's ship and they go
back in time and blow up Mars before they can invade.  Time travel is pulled
out of the ether to bring the story in on time.  That always makes me mad.  

Lissa:
> This isn't the forum for me to defend or critique George Lucas, so I'm
> not going to do it. 
Mycropht:
Story for another time....

Lissa:

>  I *am* going to point out that revelations of
> unexpected parental identity are a proud tradition in literature. 
Mycropht again:
Yeah, they really are.  I mean, even in the Bible, for crying out loud.  And
believe me, I'm expecting some to come in the next few books.  However, the
thing with the revelation of legacy is that it ties in with the Heroic
Quest.  It either initiates it or is the culmination of it.  I would argue
that we've had one major Legacy Reveal in book one when Harry discovers that
he is a wizard.  His parents have bequeathed him his skill as well as some
status in their community.  That's as Dickensian a Legacy Reveal as it gets.
(Although Harry's is more in common with Cosette in Les Miserables.)   

Lissa:
>  It is not, in my opinion, an inherently cheesy gimmick.
> 
Mycropht:
No pun intended...(inherently...)  
It isn't cheesy at all.  I don't necessarily think that Vader/Luke is a
cheesy LR.  I _do_ think that "Leia is Your Sister" is the SINGLE STUPIDIST
THING TO EVER COME OUT OF FANTASY LITERATARY TRADITION, AND I'M INCLUDING
THE SHANARRA BOOKS IN THIS!!!!!!!

*deep breath*  
Sorry about that.


Lissa:
> Nonetheless, the one thing that gives me pause about my theory is its
> parallels with Star Wars.   With the memory of Vader's revelation so
> fresh in most people's minds, it is a risky plot choice to make.
Mycropht:
The main thing that gives me pause about your theory (aside from my personal
aversion to T/SC as a plot device) is that in order for Harry & Ginny to be
V's mum and dad it would cause the Harry story to wrap inside itself.   I
think the magic of Harry Potter lies within its hope.  Your theory changes
this from a modern retelling of a mystery/morality play into an extended
fantasy novel.  I just don't get that "feel" from the books.   I could be
very wrong, of course.

Lissa:

> Oh Mycropht, if you only knew how much moral resolve it took for me not
> to mention my opinion of Star Wars in this post... (breaks down into
> hysterical laughter from the strain)
> 
Mycropht:

Lissa, you are a better woman than I, by more than half.  


Cordially,
Mycropht


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