Time Travel Paradoces and the Necessity of the Polyjuice

[psychic_serpent]

No: HPFGUIDX 57770

GulPlum <hp at p...> wrote:

Barb appears to have caused much distress to Lissa when she wrote:

Me:

::pats Lissa::  There, there.  Don't mind me.  I distressed a lot of 
people with a time-traveling Harry fanfic. ;)  I seem to have an 
unfortunate talent for it.

I previously wrote:
 
> So unless Hermione misspoke when she said that wizards had killed 
> their past AND future selves, it is in fact possible to change 
> timelines, because the wizards who had killed their past selves 
> would have done exactly that.

I think that rather than Hermione misspeaking, what we probably have 
here is JKR miswriting.  In other words, I think this is a Flint.  
While it is true that Hermione says the past SHOULDN'T be changed, 
rather than CAN'T be changed, I think that both this and the 
statement that time-traveling wizards have killed their past and 
future selves were used by JKR because she didn't quite realize the 
implications of the language involved.  Other than these two 
statements--both from Hermione--the rest of the story strongly 
implies that in the Potterverse, time cannot in fact be changed, or 
if it can, it cannot be done with a device like a Time-Turner.  (A 
complicated spell would probably be required if it's possible at 
all.)  I was pointing out before that if we are to believe these 
statements, then it is strongly implied that time CAN be changed.  
JKR obviously didn't count on people picking this apart who have 
read numerous time-travel paradox science fiction books and 
stories.  (I love that she didn't even realize she was writing 
fantasy until she noticed that there were unicorns in the story!
<g>)  

Since other evidence strongly suggests that timelines being mutable 
is NOT JKR's philosophy, then the statement about wizards killing 
their past selves must be regarded as a Flint, siince that would 
produce something contrary to fact in the Potterverse, and the 
word 'shouldn't,'  should be looked on as just a poor choice, 
when 'can't' would have better communicated her stand on time 
travel.  Is there an interview where she definitively states her 
views on time travel in the Potterverse?

GulPlum <hp at p...> wrote:

> As for Barb's second notion, Hermione has a definite tendency 
> towards exaggeration and hyperbole, and I can just see her (or 
> McGanagall, when she issued the Time-Turner) stretching the truth 
> about the TT's use just a little. Hermione's just the kind of 
> person who would be impressed/scared off by the notion that she 
> might kill herself, in order to restrict use of the TT to 
> attending two lessons simultaneously. 

I would disagree about this characterization of Hermione's verbal 
tendencies.  She's actually one of the most precise speakers in the 
books, following right after Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall.  
(There are those three again!)  Hagrid is probably the least precise 
speaker, as when he says that all dark wizards have come from 
Slytherin.  That is why, along with the other evidence of how time 
travel works in the books, Hermione's words seem Flint-like.  The 
imprecision in these statements is not worthy of her.

GulPlum <hp at p...> wrote:

Indeed, Polyjuice was introduced as an (IMO) unnecessary 
plot device in CoS (the kids could have accomplished what they did 
pretty much as easily with the Invisiblity Cloak), only for it to 
become a major element at the core of GoF.

Me:

Not so.  First, it could have been quite difficult to infiltrate the 
Slytherin common room in the cloak, especially if all three were 
sharing it.  They might never have gained access if the door was 
closed very quickly after Crabbe, Goyle and Malfoy entered.  Even if 
they had been able to enter, there was no guarantee that the 
conversation between Malfoy and his cronies would have given them 
the information they needed.  In fact, when Harry, disguised as 
Goyle, says, "You must have some idea who's behind it all..." Draco 
responds with, "You know I haven't, Goyle, how many times do I have 
to tell you?"  

Clearly, Goyle has been told this information before, and while it's 
possible that he's dim enough that he's forgotten each time and so 
might ask again (JKR clearly hasn't given these boys much in the 
brains department), it's also possible that if he was worried about 
Malfoy being angry with him or insulting him for asking one more 
time, he might never have asked again.  If the trio had been 
eavesdropping from under the cloak, they might never have heard the 
information they needed to eliminate Malfoy as the heir.  They might 
have spent their entire holiday hanging about in the Slytherin 
common room and never learned anything (plus they would have been 
reported missing if they'd done that).  They needed to be able to 
direct the conversation, and they could only do that if Malfoy 
thought Ron and Harry were Crabbe and Goyle.

So in the end, JKR had them do the only logical thing, plus managed 
to foreshadow the use of the potion in GoF.  I wonder if now she'll 
have Harry be as paranoid as Moody; he might start to think anyone 
and everyone around him has been Polyjuiced, after his experience 
during fourth year...

--Barb
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
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