Stone Defenses WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: We live stereotypes

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 57863

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" <bard7696 at a...>
wrote:
> > Then Darrin Said:
> > 
> > > C'mon, give the Trio SOME credit, will you?
> > 
> 
> ...response edited...
> 

> Darrin continues in this new post:
> 
> Actually, I said more than just what you quoted. I asked how 
> Dumbledore asked the other teachers to come up with defenses. Did he
> say to do their best or to blow it off, because he was going to 
> allow a first-year to get to the Mirror?
> 

bboy_mn:
First, I'm one of those people who find it extremely annoying that
anyone taking an objective look would call the challenges leading to
the Stone easy.

You can say that the challenges were defeated by three first years, so
they couldn't have been that bad. But the weren't just defeated by any
3 first years. Take any other three first years for any combination of
houses, and their chances of getting beyond the first chamber are
about ZERO, and their chances of making it all the way to the end,
really are ZERO.

Individually, Harry or Ron or Hermione would have been killed in an
attempt to get to the Stone, and a great deal of luck as well as
genius came into to play in their actually making it as a group.

Before I go into individual protections, I would like to make a
distinction. Fluffy, the Devil's Snare, and the Troll are protections;
the keys, the chessboard, the potions, and maybe the Mirror are
challenges. 

This Challenge as a protection is very common in the magical world.
For example, it it common to let Sphinx guard treasures, but a Sphinx
guards them with a riddle as we saw when Harry encountered the Sphinx
in the GoF maze. So why would you have a guard/protection that would
willingly allow a potential thief access to the treasure? Why? Because
that's how magic minds think. This type of protection. protection by
challenge or riddle, has a long history in lore, fable, myth, legend,
fantasy, etc....

1.) A monsterous three-headed vicious hound from hell. Very very very
few people would have known how to get past a 'hell-hound'. Those who
did venture into the first (Fluffy) chamber, would have done exactly
what Harry/Ron/Hermione/Neville did the first time they were in there;
run like hell. Even using your wand as a weapon, a three-headed hell
hound would have been hard to defeat. Notice that Quirrel did not make
any attempt to overpower Fluffy (no death curse, no stunner curse, no
leg or jaw lock curse, no total body bind, no sleeping draft, etc...),
he used the only know effective method. My guess is any wizard who
tried a method other than music, not matter how powerful that method
was, would find himself one dead wizard.

2.) A long long long long long fall onto a plant that immediately
begins to crush you to death. It was just by chance and fast reactions
that Hermione pulled herself off the Devil's Snare before it managed
to get a good hold of here. Individually, each of them would have been
dead. It would be very easy to pause to take a deep breath and
recompose yourself after surviving a long fall like that, and that is
exactly what the Devil's Snare need to ensnare you. That would be a
very difficult trap to escape.

How many people would have even been willing to risk the fall? Very
few I think; only the most daring and desparate would jump into a
trapdoor without knowing what lie beneath. So in a sense, the trapdoor
itself was another protection; mark it (1a).

3.) The Keys - I think the logic of the 'riddle' of the keys would
escape most people. Ron quickly and logically noted that the key would
likely match the lock in appearance. I think most people would have
just looked at the relative size, and began chasing, catching, and
trying keys, hoping that eventually they would get the right one.
Given the many hunreds of key, that could have take quite a while.
Ron's assumption of size, shape and color narrowed it down. Their
combined flight skills and Harry keen eye of a Seeker, gave them a
trememdous advantage over a single challenger working on his own.
Their individual unique skill and team work allowed them to find the
key, that others would have struggled with and possibly failed to
accomplish.

4.) The Chessboard - it wouldn't take a genius to know that failing at
a challenge like this would be possibly dangerous and probably deadly.
 This challenge also reminds me of the Sphinx; turn back and walk away
unharmed, overcome the challenge and move forward, try and fail an you
face grace consequences. How about you? You willing to bet your life
and the life of your friends on your chess skills? Even if your chess
skills are up to the task, do you have the courage and strength of
character to sacrifice yourself for the greater good the way Ron did.
I doubt it. Again, this challenge is overcome by unique skill, and 
uncommon courage and self-sacrifice. Very few would have the strength
and quality of character combined with the special skills to get past
this challenge.

5.) The Riddle of the Potions - sure it's easy to be a reader of the
book and say, 'I solved that puzzle in no time at all.', but were you
stressed out from facing 4 prior deadly challenges, did the fate of
the world rest in your hands, were you trapped behind a wall of fire,
were you on the threshold of facing an evil wizard if you won, were
you willing to bet your life and the life of your friend on the
outcome of your solution of the riddle? It's easy to do these things
when 'the gun isn't pointed at your head'. Assuming you didn't poison
yourself, you would likely be trapped behind the flames until someone
came looking for you. AND and this is a very BIG AND, do you have a
wizard's mind set, do you relate to the world with the perspective and
life experience of a wizard; someone who has never studied logic or
logical analytical methods like math? For a wizard, this was a deadly
challenge. Fortunately, Harry and Hermione, relative to their life
experience, are not wizards; they grew up in the muggle world and have
learned structured analytical thinking methods.

6.) The Troll - fortunately, Quirrel already knock out the troll. But
if any other wizard was trying to break into there are any other time,
they would have been faced with a very angry, bored, hungry, and
extremely large troll. I don't think there would have been enough
sheer dumb luck in the world to save most people.

7.) The Mirror - well, many many people have already said that the
Mirror alone was the most effective challenge in the group and could
have probably effectively guarded the Stone all by itself. Certainly,
a brilliant challenge. But I have to wonder if the Mirror didn't also
have some hazards added to it. For example (no cannon support), if you
tried to strike the mirror to break it, you might have been sucked
inside and trapped there. It would be the first 'fairytale' mirror to
suck people inside and trap them. The Mirror could have been an even
greater challenge that we know. Even without the additional implied
hazards, it was still pretty brilliant.

Conclusion, I don't see how anyone can seriously think that ANY first
years or any three first years other than Harry/Hermione/Ron could
have stood even the slightest chance again the challenges, and I don't
see very many adult wizards or witches who would have been up to the
challenge either; only the most foolish and desparate.

The Quirrel exception - I think Quirrel knew the 'backdoor' to most of
the challenges. That is, he got around them without actually
confronting the challenge, either by knowing how to by-pass it, or in
the case of the Riddle of the Potions, knowing the answer in advance.
I think he knew how to avoid the Devil's Snare, I think he knew
exactly what key he was looking for, I think he by-passed the chess
game altogether, and I think he knew which potion bottle to drink from
without solving the riddle. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


> You're telling me that if Dumbledore asked Snape to come up with a 
> tough logic puzzle, he would have gone half-ass on it? 
> 

No, I think Dumbledore made a serious request and the teacher
responded with serious efforts, efforts steeped in the mindset and
mentality of the wizard world. 


> We know Quirrell got past all that stuff, but he did have the spirit
> of the  brightest student ever at Hogwarts helping him, too.
> 
> Darrin
> -- Wants the Trio to get their props.


While Quirrel did have the 'spirit of the brightest student ever at
Hogwarts' helping him, you can see what I feel is a more logical
explaination in the 'The Quirrel exception' paragraph above.

I model this belief on computer programming. Although very much
frowned upon by employeers today, back in the wild and wolly times of
computer programming, it was common for programmer to build a backdoor
into their programs. This 'backdoor' would allow them to get driectly
into the program by by-passing all the security features. It make
working on the program a lot less tedious when you could quickly
by-pass these access restriction. I seriously doubt that Dumbledore
played his way throught all the challenges everytime he wanted to go
down to the chamber that had the Mirror and the Stone. So, based on
all that, I have to assume that where applicable, there was a by-pass
for each of the challenges.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn