Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) (was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4)

[jwcpgh]

No: HPFGUIDX 83940

> > > Paula now:
> > >  
> > > Laura, why do you say Molly is way out of line?  <snip> 
> > 
> > Laura:
> > 
> > When she made that crack to Sirius about his not being a 
> responsible  godfather because he spent 12 years in Azkaban, I 
> lost my patience  with her.  <snip> She treats them [the kids]all 
> like they were 4 years old,  including anyone she decides to treat 
> as her kid, i.e., Harry and  Hermione.  (Remember in GoF when 
> she started being snotty to  Hermione because of the story Rita 
> wrote about Harry, Hermione and Viktor?  That was just wrong.) 
> <<
> 
Pippin:
> First place, Molly never says that Sirius was an irresponsible 
> godfather. She says he's been known to act rashly, and everyone 
> knows this is true. Sirius himself doesn't deny it. In fact, he 
> knows that it was a rash act of his that led to his being 
> imprisoned in Azkaban, and that's why Molly's taunt has so much 
> sting to it.
>  

Laua replies:

Yes, she does.  She puts it out there clearly by implication and 
only retracts it when Sirius calls her on it.  She says Harry is 
still a child "and adults reponsible for you should not forget it". 
(OoP p.89 US)Her meaning is unmistakeable.  And Sirius never agrees 
that he acted rashly.  He just says "[w]e'll leave my instructions 
from Dumbledore out of this, if you don't mind!".  (OoP p. 89 US) 

As for whether Sirius's change of secret keeper was rash or not, I'd 
say that's a matter of debate on this list.  I don't think it was.  
Everyone knew there was a spy in the Order, Sirius knew it wasn't 
himself and no one, including DD, suspected Peter.  Sirius made the 
best decision he could with the information he had.  Some people 
have argued that James and Lily should have chosen DD to be their 
secret keeper.  Maybe, maybe not, but that wasn't Sirius's decision. 
You may think it was rash of Sirius to set himself up as LV's target 
while taking steps to insure that the real secret keeper wouldn't be 
found.  I don't.  
>
Pippin: 
> I'm not sure I understand what the Skeeter episode has to do 
> with treating people like they're four years old.  Molly was 
misled by Rita Skeeter, but who was to tell her things were 
otherwise? You think Ron wrote home and said, "Harry's all upset 
because the Prophet made Hermione out to be a scarlet woman and 
> Harry doesn't like her that way at all?"

Laura replies:

Molly acts like the kids can't work out their relationships on their 
own; she has to get involved and make her feelings part of the 
situation.  (Remember the little Easter egg she sent Hermione?  I 
mean, really.) That's inappropriate here, imo. No, I don't think Ron 
wrote home at all, and that's exactly the point.  No one asked Molly 
for her input.  Her job was to stay out of it unless and until she 
was explicitly invited in by one of the participants.  What teenager 
wants mommy to show up and start "solving" their personal problems?  
And there weren't any problems to begin with.  Anyone who would take 
Rita at her word is a fool.  Molly should know that-everyone else 
seems to.
Remember, this is a woman who is still badgering her grown son about 
his hair length.  Enough already!

> Laura:
> > By the time we get to OoP, she has decided that she can 
> ignore the  wishes of Harry's parents and insert herself in loco 
> parentis to Harry. Why?
> 
Pippin:
> Um, because Dumbledore asked her to? Because Harry's been 
> writing Ron for a month asking when he can come to the 
> Burrow?   Molly put her own family at risk, first  by giving Harry 
> refuge from the Dursleys and then involving herself in the Order. 
> Then  Sirius said she didn't have any rights in Harry. That was 
> pretty unfeeling  of him. 

Laura replies:

Show me the canon for your belief that DD asked Molly to take on 
legal responsibility for Harry.  Yes, Molly and Arthur have been 
generous and loving to Harry.  That doesn't mean that they have 
formal responsibility for him or that they have any "rights" in 
him.  If you care about your kid's friends and offer them affection 
and support, does that mean you then have "rights" over them?  Of 
course not. Sirius was exactly correct.  Molly was overstepping her 
bounds.

Pippin:
> Especially when she'd spent the last month cleaning up *his* 
> house, with out much help from him, apparently. 

Laura replies:

Now that, I assume, was on DD's instruction, so that the Order HQ 
would be safe and habitable.  Do you really think Sirius cared 
whether the place crumbled in a heap around him?  He would have been 
delighted. I'd guess that most prisoners don't savor the experience 
of having to scrub out their cells.  


Pippin:

Of course Molly's a little nuts by the time we see her in OOP. 
> She's been fretting about Harry for a month and  no happier 
> about his being stuck at the Dursleys than he was. And she 
> doesn't know why any more than Harry does. But she's the suck 
> it up and deal type. She's trying to cope by putting the danger 
out of mind and assuring herself that Dumbledore knows best.
> 
> But she has to put up with Sirius grumbling about Dumbledore 
> all the time not to mention  whatever  wild talk Sirius indulged 
in. Probably hatching one halfbaked scheme after another to spring 
> Harry from the Dursleys without Dumbledore's permission or lam it 
with him from the Ministry ditto.

Laura replies:

I think we have a different perspective on this and we'll have to 
agree to disagree.  Molly is ready to indulge in a scene at the drop 
of a rubber wand, all the way through canon.  Her default reaction 
seems to be a meltdown.  It's getting old for me.  
I would doubt that Sirius spent a lot of time talking to Molly.  It 
sounded from canon like he hung out with Buckbeak a fair amount.  If 
Remus was around, I imagine Sirius talked to him.  
Molly shows absolutely no insight into Sirius, or anyone, really.  
She just wants to be Uber-Mom, who knows best without bothering to 
ask anyone what they might want or feel.  

Laura:
> <snip>  It's not like Harry went to Molly for advice at any point 
throughout the 5 books.
 
> Pippin:
> And that had to hurt. 

Laura replies:

No one *ever* goes to Molly for advice.  In the kitchen scene at GP, 
everyone in the room, including her own husband, disagrees with 
her.  That should tell us something.


Here's the canon on that discusion:

"'He's not your son', said Sirius quietly.
'He's as good as,' said Mrs. Weasley fiercely.  Who else has he got?'
'He's got me!'
'Yes,' said Mrs. Weasley, her lip curling.  The thing is, it's been 
rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked 
up in Azkaban, hasn't it?'" (OoP p. 90 US)

My reaction to that was to gasp-what an incredibly cruel and hurtful 
thing to say!  She accuses Sirius of confusing Harry with James.  
Yet she confuses 15-year-old!Harry with a much younger Harry she 
never even knew.  She doesn't do any of the kids a service by 
refusing to let them grow up just because the big world can be 
scary.  Guess what-it'll be that way whether kids are equipped to 
handle it or not.  Wouldn't a thoughtful parent want them to be 
prepared for what they may face as teens and adults?  I thought that 
was what parenting was all about.