Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) (was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4)

[jwcpgh]

No: HPFGUIDX 83962

>Laura:
> > As for whether Sirius's change of secret keeper was rash or 
> not, I'd say that's a matter of debate on this list.<
> 
Pippin:
> True. But  I was referring to Sirius's decision to go after 
Pettigrew with no backup. 

Laura again:

Oh-okay.  But I doubt that even at that point Sirius saw Peter as a 
genuine threat-he'd never shown any sign of physical courage or 
mental agility before.
> 
<snip> 
> Laura:
> > Anyone who would take  Rita at her word is a fool.  Molly should 
> know that-everyone else seems to.<
> 
Pippin:
> Then I guess Hermione is a fool, since she called on Rita to 
> spread the word about Voldemort's return. Hermione could have 
> written the story herself, so I guess Hermione understands that 
> the Skeeter byline commands a lot of respect, despite  Rita's  
> tendency to, er, exaggerate. 

Laura again:
Hermione didn't have to worry about Rita doing what she was told-it 
wasn't an agreement, it was blackmail. (You go, Hermione!)  
Actually, though, what I meant was that anyone who would believe 
that Rita's stories are credible is a fool.  Yeah, there are a lot 
of fools in the WW-sort of like the RW.  But anyone who can think 
for themselves would take Rita's reporting with several pounds of 
salt.  And certainly Molly, whose own husband got the Rita treatment 
at the beginning of GoF, should know better than to believe what 
Rita says in her articles.


Pippin:
> Anyway, Hermione is sad about the tiny egg, not angry at Molly.  
> She *wants* to be friends with Molly. It was just a stupid 
> misunderstanding, like Ron thinking that Harry had put his name 
> in the goblet. 

Laura again:
I'm not talking about how Hermione felt, though. I'm talking about 
how Molly felt and acted.  It was more than a stupid 
misunderstanding, imo-it was Molly choosing to believe a gossip 
sheet and getting emotionally involved in something that was none of 
her business.

<snip> 
> > Laura:
> > Show me the canon for your belief that DD asked Molly to take 
> >on  legal responsibility for Harry. 

Pippin:
> 
> Moral, not legal. Dumbledore, chapter 36, GoF. "Molly...am I right 
> in thinking I can count on you and Arthur?" And of course, he 
> invites Molly to Harry's bedside, along with Sirius, and meets 
> with her before she goes home. 

Laura again:
I don't read DD's question as suggesting that Molly and Arthur 
should take over moral responsibility for Harry.  The context is 
that of reforming the Order.  Her response is "We know what Fudge 
is", not "Of course we'll take care of Harry." 
 Molly was not actually invited to Harry's bedside-she was there 
with Bill, Hermione and Ron trying to find out where Harry was.  DD 
allowed them all to stay with Harry's permission.  The only person
(as it were) whom DD explicitly invited to be with Harry was Sirius 
(GoF p.699 US).
> 
Pippin:
> I think Sirius's remark, "He's not your son," was just as hurtful 
as Molly's crack about Azkaban.  For both Sirius and Molly, their 
> moral right to care for Harry is stronger than their legal one.  
<snip>

Laura again:
I don't know exactly how the godparent thing works but doesn't such 
a designation carry some moral, if not legal, weight?  Sirius is the 
person Harry's parents chose to act in their stead if they were 
unable to care for Harry themselves.  The implication I get from 
canon is that this allows Sirius to become Harry's substitute parent 
in a legal sense.  Sirius's permission for Harry to go to Hogsmeade 
is sufficient for DD and McGonagall despite the lack of such 
permission from the Dursleys.  And when Harry and Sirius talk about 
Harry coming to live with Sirius in the tunnel of the Shrieking 
Shack, there doesn't seem to be any question that Harry could do it-
any legal question, that is.  At that point we don't know about the 
protection problem and apparently neither does Sirius.  By OoP he 
must have found out because he puts Harry off when Harry asks if he 
can come and live at GP.

It just seems to me that Molly has an attitude in her dealings with 
Sirius, and I wonder if it might not be just a bit of jealousy.  
Harry has been included in her family for several years now, and has 
been happy and grateful to be.  Still, as soon as Sirius comes onto 
the scene, Harry gives his greatest love and loyalty to him.  He 
shows an intensity of feeling toward Sirius that he never shows 
toward Molly.  Maybe it's natural that Molly should be hurt by this, 
but any parent who takes this sort of thing from a teenager 
personally is asking for hurt feelings.  And if Molly had been a bit 
more mature herself, maybe she could have seen her reaction for what 
it was and dealt with it more constructively.  

The real sadness of the situation is that Harry needed both Sirius 
and Molly-a father figure and a mother figure.  Molly might have 
made an effort to combine forces with Sirius instead of competing 
with him.  Given Molly's age, parenting experience and general life 
experience, I put most of the blame for their antagonism with her.  

No, I don't think his remark to Molly was cruel at all-it was plain 
and simple fact.  Harry, being Sirius's godson, was a lot closer to 
being his son than he was to being Molly's.  Sirius clearly expected 
to start his duties as godfather as soon as he was cleared of the 
charges that had put him in Azkaban.  And although circumstances 
interfered with that plan, Sirius still does as much as he can to 
care for Harry.  But Molly never seemed to accept that.  

Laura:
 Molly is ready to indulge in a scene at the drop  of a rubber wand, 
all the way through canon.
> 
Pippin:
> And Sirius isn't? 

Laura again:

Nope.  Sirius is calm, thoughtful and cautious througout GoF.  
Molly, on the other hand...

One of the fun things about these discussions is that they're a bit 
of a Rorschach (sp?), aren't they?  The ways that we see characters 
and events has as much to do with our own perspectives as with what 
JKR actually wrote.  I guess what I'm revealing about myself is that 
I'm very uncomfortable with parents who smother their kids-which 
might mean that that's my natural impulse!  So maybe I just don't 
like the Molly I see in myself.

Laura, wondering for the nth time about her parenting skills-or lack 
thereof