Maturity as a theme in OoP and Sirius' future plot relevance (WAS: Sirius quite

[Tom Wall]

No: HPFGUIDX 84361

Replies to Jen Reese and Kneasy in this post.

Jen:
I mean, what else can you do with Sirius? He's literally and 
figuratively backed into a corner--can't leave the house, isn't safe 
anywhere in the world apparently, can't do much for the Order, has 
massive emotional baggage that the WW is unable or unwilling to deal 
with--can JKR really leave him smoldering in Grimmauld Place for two 
more books? I think she did the noble thing and gave him a way out, 
a hero's way out at that--dying to save his best friend's son.
 
Tom:
You know, I hadn't really looked at it that way before... come to 
think of it, the situation that she delineated concerning Sirius  
really also should have given us a clue as to who was going to die 
by the end of the book. 

Of course, I never saw Sirius' situation coming, either. Actually, 
based on the way that Dumbledore used Sirius to spread the word 
to "the old crowd" at the end of GoF, I thought that we were going 
to see a very useful Sirius. Perhaps not a Spy!Sirius, per se, but 
most certainly a Sirius who would be doing... well, *something.*

Come to think of it, now, the only thing I really saw coming in OoP 
was the fact that Dumbledore was going to be discredited, although 
to be honest, I fully believed that it was going to come to light 
that Dumbledore had been aiding Sirius. Great - another "How very 
wrong I was" realization. ;-) 


Jen:
And while I don't think Sirius *had* to die in order for Harry to
make a big leap in his moral development, I do agree this is exactly
what happened (seeing as the character had to die anyway without any
reasonable plot development left <bg>). Harry is already learning
about his reckless side, his penchant for 'playing hero' in OOTP
prior to Sirius' death, but his death does speed up the process of
realization quite a bit!

Tom:
Oooh! Ooooh! Since I've found so many nails already, I
figured I might as well point this one out, too. ;-) 

Coming to understand and recognize one's own patterns of behavior is 
also a sign of maturity!


Kneasy:
Note that I didn't (surprise, surprise) *insist* that he would be 
revealed as Evil!Sirius, in fact that is only one of three, (? four) 
revelations I can think of that might have plot implications.

Tom:
Yeah - I didn't think that you were implying an Evil!Sirius. Did I 
imply that you implied an Evil!Sirius? It's tough to recall, 
sometimes. ;-)

What I meant to present was the fact that Sirius' character always 
seemed to me to be a vehicle for JKR to demonstrate flip-flopping  
in regards to his ulterior motivations as a character. PoA, of 
course, is a concrete case of this, in both the case of his hidden 
innocence and the concretized metaphor of his transformative 
abilities. In that sense, Sirius always sort of has been a character 
who exemplifies dichotomous drives.

And, for the record, I do agree with you when you suggest that 
Sirius will likely remain in subsequent plotlines in the future, one 
way or the other. I just don't see too many big Bang!s in his future.


Kneasy, drawing a distinction betwen post-facto rationalization and 
analysis: 
Post facto rationalisation (by my definition) doesn't involve hard
work at all. It's more of an off-the-cuff knee-jerk reaction (if 
that's not too much of a mixed metaphor). It can be correct, of 
course, which is bloody annoying.

Tom:
Okay - now I understand how you are drawing this distinction. So, 
you'll have to forgive my - admittedly ignorant - confession on this 
point, since I confused what you call pfr with what I call analysis. 
Distinction accepted. ;-)


Kneasy:
[Maturity] is *a* theme. There are multiple themes.
But if you only consider one theme, you are like someone whose tool 
kit consists only of a hammer - everything looks like a nail.

Tom:
I agree, but to a limited extent. Naturally. ;-)

I do think it's fair to point out that authors in general - and JKR, 
in particular - because they're dealing in fictional universes, do 
very handily tend to use metaphors and plot-points in their tales to 
kill two, three, four or more thematic birds with one stone, so to 
speak.

So, whereas I might just be a wee bit guilty of, um, *overnailing* 
my points to the various plot twists in OoP, I would counter by 
arguing that - true authorial motives aside - it's quite possible, 
even likely, that many of those examples were deliberately used by 
JKR to cover and add depth to the maturity theme in OoP. I readily 
concede that they were likely meant to convey other impressions as 
well, but I do think that it's the case that these books are nearly 
always operating on a variety of levels at all times.


Kneasy, in response to my mondo long list of
"maturity" examples:
I see this as a prime 'hammer' interpretation. You
don't seem to have considered any other alternatives.

Tom:
Well, to be fair, I *was* trying to paint the picture for Maturity, 
y'know? ;-)


Kneasy's list of objections to my list of examples, beginning with:
Knowledge is not maturity, how you use it may be.

Tom:
Mmmm... I'm not so sure about this. I agree, but only tangentially. 
That is to say that one could very legitimately argue that coming of 
age tales quite frequently employ the dirty-secret, skeleton-in-the-
closet revelation concerning respected family members as a method of 
forcing a character to mature. And in OoP, of course, that insight 
into the past is doubled in that Harry learns not only about his 
Dad, but also about Snape.


Kneasy:
Disobedience is not maturity (Ron did worse with the flying car).

Tom:
Ahh, now I think that *you're* trying to pull a fast one. ;-) I 
didn't say that disobedience was a sign of maturity. I said that the 
desire to make not just decisions, but *important* decisions for 
oneself was distinctly a sign of maturity. 

So, I'd have to draw a distinction here between, on the one hand,  
Ron and the twins taking the Ford Anglia in CoS, and Harry making 
surreptitious trips to Hogsmeade in PoA; and on the other hand, the 
quite conscious DA decision-making that concerns *belief* in OoP. 

The actions, while all "disobedient" to a degree, are the results of 
different motivations. 

For instance, I wouldn't argue that commandeering the Anglia is a 
decision that reflects developing maturity. But the DA is different, 
in the sense that it illustrates the kids' growing awareness of the 
state of the world around them, and their desire to both prepare to 
interact with in on a more perilous level. Learning to defend 
oneself is definitely related to the process of growing up. And not 
just in the physical sense. This ability to protect oneself is also 
paralleled by Ron's unfamiliarity with pre-Quidditch match taunts.


Kneasy:
Sirius (re Regulus) is filling in background 

Tom:
Again, I'd be more inclined to view this situation as one that is 
distinctly operating on a variety of levels. 

I mean, yes, this story does fill us in on some necessary backstory 
concerning not only Sirius, but also James. It also reiterates a 
fairly common theme that threads throughout the series as a whole: 
families are broken apart by Voldemort. 

It additionally sheds light on possible motivations for people 
joining the Death Eater ranks, as well as on the severity of 
Voldemort's reaction to dissenters. But I brought it up in the 
context of maturity because it both repeated and deepened the oft-
repeated theme of *choices,* in the sense that both Sirius and his 
brother made choices, and those choices had direct impacts on their 
futures. So, I see this as definitely connected to the theme of 
maturity, even if it is accomplishing several goals at once.


Kneasy:
DD seems to understand teenagers very well, but he deliberately
lies to further his own plans.

Tom:
Oh Kneasy, you and Dumbledore's subversive behavior. ;-) 

I do agree that Dumbledore is not - shall we say - entirely 
forthcoming with his information all the time. And I do readily 
admit that he's careful with his language, *and* that he's still 
hiding certain puzzle pieces from Harry. And it *is* canonical fact 
that Dumbledore has an agenda. 

But he did say also that old age sometimes forgets what it's like to 
be young. And, at least on a very surface - albeit rather 
uninteresting and fairly obvious - level, that is a commentary on 
maturity and what happens when you have a little too much of it.


Kneasy:
Career advice is a right of passage, but nobody seems mature enough
to make realistic choices.

Tom:
Well, no, they're not mature. That's the point of the Career Advice 
in the first place - it facilitates this maturation process. I mean, 
from my perspective, I never had a clear-cut direction planned for 
myself. But I was forced to make decisions, and now I have to take 
responsibility for them. And the assumption of responsibility for 
one's actions and choices is quite distinctly related to the 
development of maturity. And, of course, assuming responsibility for 
one's actions is really something that most adults confront almost 
daily, right?


Kneasy:
Disillusionment can happen at any age. (And always
after careers advice.) With Harry it happened when he realised what 
the Dursleys were really like. He'd be about seven, I imagine.

Tom:
Okay. *This* one I'll give you. ;-) 

Disillusionment *can* happen at any age. One could quite easily 
construct a case for Snape's turncoating as a result of adult 
disillusionment. 

Yes, there's a "but" on the way.

But. That doesn't mean that it's not also standard-fare for coming 
of age tales as well. ;-) Another two-bird one-stone situation.

-Tom