The Ultimate Theory Behind Occlumency and Legilimency

[Arya]

No: HPFGUIDX 84890

Subject Was:  Another Snape Theory ...Harry/Snape...

Arya wrote earlier:
I've kind of been fostering the theory that since Dumbledore is an
Occlumens and Snape is an Occlumens and someone had to teach 
Snape how to do this....(hmm, someone say perhaps who may want to help
Snape be capable of lying in Volde's presence in order to spy?)...and
I think it was D-dore who taught Snape.  Now, we can see from Harry-
Snape Occlumendcy lessons that if one is open to see, then an awful
lot of insight can be gained about a person while teaching them this
art.  I tend now to think that D-dore's affection and trust of Snape
is directly related to the likelyhood that Dumbledore once soent
hours pointing his wand at Snape and crying, "Legilimens!", making
Snape gasp upon the floor as he shared his own agonizing childhood
 
 
Tanya wrote:
While I have not figured out the connection in all of this.  I can see how =

that theory would work.  For the life of me, I have trouble accepting that =
LV 
would want his DE's to be able to block him out, how would he know who 
among them was trustworthy?
> 
Then again, it might have been used to block out the enemy, but then, it 
would be a problem for LV still.
> 
If Snape learnt Occlumency just prior to spying, then LV's entries into his=
 
head before that would show little change afterwards as Snape could then 
block him.  It would have to be done so there was no suspicion.  Not only 
would Snape be able to verbally lie, but his demeanor and such would have 
to be a perfect poker face, no tremors etc.  From what I have read, LV is 
good at smelling guilt.  I assume he can do the same with fear.
 

Arya again--it's along post:
My theory is that a master of Occlumency can not just block the probe, but =

actually manipulate it, project forth it's own images and thus lie using th=
eir 
skills.  It's easy to lie with words--you just say it, we've all done that =
at some 
point.  But often, there are people who are just plain poor liars--somethin=
g, 
somehow, there's something in their face and expression or eyes....(they sa=
y 
people won't or can't lie effectively while looking another in the 
eye)...something just makes whomever it is being lied to, know.  They know =

that they are not getting the truth and not only that, but sometimes, they =
even 
know what it is that the real answer is.  C'mon, this has had happened to 
everyone at least some time in their life!!  I kind of see it like this.  

Sure there is a Spell "Legilimens" to do this forthright and openly, but wh=
at's 
the point in that?!?  We see Dumbledore "reads minds" and has his all 
knowing reputation and he isn't walking about, offering lemon drops and the=
y 
pointing a wand and shouting, "Legilimens!" at everyone to be this all know=
ing 
and twinkly fellow, is he?  
No, I say, as Snape suggests when he says, "Time and space matter in 
magic, Potter.  Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency." (UK Adult E=
d. 
p469) that means Legilimency is most likely an art that is much much more 
than some spell.  It's the art of reading the emtions and questing through =

another's mind when in close proximity and making eye contact.  (Or just 
sharing a scar connection and a strange coicidence of having the same blood=
 
due to some weird rebirthing potion that made Dumbledore gleam with 
triumph...)

Let's take a look at all the scenes we scene glimpsed through Legilimency (=
All 
references UK Adult Edition):
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1. (p472) 
     a. Harry jealously watching Dudley.
     b. Ripper chases Harry up tree as Dursleys laugh.
     c. Sorting Hat saying heÕd do well in Slytherin.
     d. Hermione as polyjuiced (illegally brewed with SnapeÕs stolen      
ingredients) cat.
     e. Dementors closing in on (towards) him by the lake.
     f. Cho closing in under the mistletoe.

2. (p473)
     a. Great black dragon was rearing in front of him (1st task of tournam=
ent?)
     b. Harry sees his mum and dad waving at him from the Mirror of Erised.=

     c. Cedric lying dead on the ground, eyes staring at him.

After this one, Snape even says, ÒYou are allowing me to access memories 
you fear, handing me weapons!Ó and also says, ÒÉfools Éwho wallow in sad 
memoriesÉÓ

3. (p474)
     a. Uncle Vernon nailing the letterbox shut.
     b. Dementors drifting across the lake towards him.
     c. Running down MoM hallway with Mr. Weasley (to his trial) and they 
pass the black door that leads to the DoM.
This connection and realization as to what the door of his dreams is, then =

prompt Harry to have the mental strength to repel the probe without and 
wand.

4. (p520)
     a. ÒHe had just been forced, yet again, to relive a stream of very ear=
ly 
memories he had not even realised he still had, most of them concerning *
humiliations* Dudley and his gang had inflicted upon him in primary school.=
  
Snape asks about what was the last memory and Harry asks, ÒYou mean the 
one where my cousin tried to make me stand in a toilet?Ó but Snape says no =

and meant, Òthe one with the man (Rookwood) kneeling in the middle of a 
darkened roomÉÓ.  Which, of course, is form Volde.  

5. (p521) (and after Harry was Òconvinced he had gone too farÓ in saying 
something to piss Snape off)
     a. Dementors swoop across lake towards Harry.
     b. He screwed up his face in concentration. (to fight and repel Dement=
ors, 
I assume)
     c. Dementors were coming closerÉhe could see the holes beneath their 
hoods.
     d. He sees ÒSnape standing before him, eyes fixed on HarryÕs face, 
muttering under his breathÉÓ
     e. Snape grows clearer and Dementors fade away
     f. Harry casts Protego, thus reflecting the spell upon Snape where we =
then 
see:
            i. Hook-nosed man shouts at cowering woman while small dark-har=
ied 
boy cowers in corner.
            ii. Greasy-haired teen sits alone in dark bedroom, pointing wan=
d at 
flies on ceiling and shoots them down.
            iii. Girl laughs at scrawny boy trying to mount broomstick.

6. (p522)
     a. Harry is hurtling down MoM corridor towards DoM and suddenly the 
door flies open and heÕs in the circular room.  (And now weÕve crossed a li=
ne 
when it was no longer just a memory, but something completely new.  And 
Snape is even ÒÉangrier than when heÕd looked into [his] memoriesÉÓ.
-------------------------------------------------

Ok, now we only five separate casts of the Legilimens spell, but I propse t=
hat 
each time that spell is cast, it is for a specific *emotion*.  Let's look a=
nd see 
what we can deduce they are:

#1 we have to guess at and I might suggest (as it is Snape's first opportun=
ity 
to break into his mind and Snape is Snape) it's *Things Harry wouldn't want=
 
Snape to see/know*.

#2 is given to us by Snape when he mentions Harry was "...allowing me to 
access *Memories You Fear*..." or maybe he meant it as *feelings* he fears =

to remember, because I can't imagine Harry likes to admit he felt scare in =
the 
1st task, sad and alone when he saw his parents nor guilty as Cedrics death=
 
ahunts him.

#3 is a foggy one to me.  I was thinkiong it might be when Harry felt hopel=
ss 
or something.  

#4 is clear bcause Harry even summarizes them all as *Memories of 
Humiliation*.  And remember, this is the one where suddenly, what seems to =

be one of VOldemort's memories (Rookwood) pops up and guess what, even 
that memory of Volde could be seen as *humiliating* for the Dark Lord 
because he was given false information that made him waste time on fruitles=
s 
efforts.
#5 I think is *Memories Where He Felt Fear* because it's the Dementors as 
they almost kiss him and then Snape's face--and that is scary--especially a=
s 
Harry had just felt he had pushed old Sev too far.  But his seeing Snape in=
 his 
mind and then knowing Snape was in the room allowed Harry to reconnect 
his conscious to his own will and then enable him to see Snape muttering 
(The spell?  The, perhaps, imperius-voice like directive for the spell to p=
robe 
for specific memories??).  Harry then casts a shield charm and reflects the=
 
probe into Snape.  And the same, *Memories Where He Felt Fear* can be 
said for what we see of Sev's mind.  Fearing for the woman--his mum?-- 
being yelled at?  Certainly he was "cowering".  Shooting down flies?  Hmm, =

well, he's a student and shouldn't be doing magic....he should fear Malfada=
 
Hopkirk...but then, oh, what spell does he use to do this?  Could it be an =

unforgiveable?  Snape can be as reckless and self-endangering as a 
Gryffindor at times and my guess was he's AK'ing flies with illegal 
summertime magic, just hoping to get into trouble--or get attention or 
something.  Maybe he hopes he'll get expelled and never have to go back to =

school where those bullies are...  And the last scene of trying to mount th=
e 
bucking broomstick--yeah, that'd scare me too.

#6 is also very foggy because it only gets so far before it totally turns i=
nto 
something completely new.  Maybe we are back to *Things Harry Doesn't 
Want Snape to Know About*.  It certainly pisses him off an awful lot.
----------------

Ok, so, in conclusion, I propose that the Legilimencing Spell probes for a =

specific emtion of feeling.  Really what good would memories do unless you =

could file them as meaning something to the person to whom they belong?  
This also would allow for Legilimency, The Art, to be used in everyday 
conversation.  

How about in CoS (Uk Adult Ed Soft p156) when Dumbledore asks Harry, "I 
must ask you, Harry, whether there is anything you'd like to tell me.  Anyt=
hing 
at all." while considering Harry carefully.  Harry, of course, doesn't say =

anything but he does flit through all sorts of images in his mind of the th=
ings 
going on in regards to the Heir of Sly.  Or maybe in GoF (UK Adult Ed Soft =

p448) where Snape accuses Harry of stealing from his private office and 
Harry looks up as Snape's "fathomless black eyes [were] boring into Harry's=
" 
as Snape speaks and insinuates he knows who stole and "Do not lie to me" 
and then lists the ingredients that were stolen.  Harry stares back, determ=
ined 
not to blink and is able to lie and say "I don't know what you're talking a=
bout!" 
but then again, Snape was under the imrepssion and accusing Harry of being =

the one who stole--which he did not.

Both incidences seem to me to be examples of real life uses of Lgilimencing=
 
skill.  Oh, and let's not forget Volde's 1st appearance when he asks Quirre=
l to 
let him face the boy. (UK Adult Soft p212) Harry seems scared stiff as the =

"glaring red eyes" paralyse him from taking a step even back.  And Volde 
speaking and telling about what he wants with the Elixer of Life and then 
conludes with "Now why don't you give me that Stone in your pocket?"  It 
seems Volde got Harry to think about the Stone and that made Harry think of=
 
where the stone currently was and that, through Legilimency, let Volde know=
 
exactly where the stone was.  


So, there's my evidence,  What do I think this means for how Occlumency os =

used?  Ok, I say that master Occlumens can first detect any sort of mind 
probe, deduce through where it tries to probe ("master your mind!") and the=
n 
choose the lie or false infor or manipulating "image" or thoughts/memories =
to 
be projected forth, without the one doing the probing, ever knowing.
Yes, is, and I am sure he is, Volde is a mster of Legilimency, then it woul=
dn't 
do well for a servant to simply block him out.  Volde knows enough to not b=
e 
able to trust his servants--he verifies evewrything with his skills.  But S=
nape, 
capable now of preventing his mind from being probed and capable of 
feeding forth false and censored info, is a master at duplicity (lying) and=
 a 
priceless spy for the Light.  Unfortunately, this also means that Dumbledor=
e 
can not read Snape this way--not at least since Snape has become a master 
Occlumens.  Which also leads back into my theory that Snape learned from 
Dumbledore as Dumbledore gave him the skill to become at spy and lie to 
Volde.  Dumbledore would have been the last person to not only read Snape 
this way, but, as we see in Harry's training, Dumbledore would have been 
able to probe for all sorts of emtions, feelings and memories (I'm sure the=
y 
weren't all as bad as the ones Snape chose to use on Harry) that make 
Dumbledore very confident when he says, "I trust Severus Snape."

Arya (My logest post like ever)