Legilimens and Occlumens and Snape's Reasons

[wry1352000]

No: HPFGUIDX 85845

Eloise wrote:
> 
> > I don't believe that he knew Pettigrew was a Death Eater until 
after the
infirmary scene in PoA (when I *hope* that Dumbledore sat him down 
and gently
explained a lot of stuff to him). We are told more than once that 
Snape has an
uncanny knack of putting two and two together. A lot of the time he's 
right.
Sometimes he's very wrong. But he has such conviction that he's right 
that he's
not likely to look readily at alternative explanations, especially 
from sources
he has reason to suspect such as Sirius or Lupin.
After OoP, however, I am left wondering a few things.
> > If Snape and Dumbledore are such experts at occulomency, I wonder 
> how between 
> > them they were not able to divine who was the spy in the Order of 
> the 
> > Phoenix. OK, I let Snape off this one, as I assume he was working 
> deep under cover 
> > and the members of the OoP didn't know about him. But Dumbledore?
> > 
> > 
David wrote:
> 
> Interesting questions, which point up how little we know of the 
> Legilimens and Occlumens spells, since Snape never got very far in 
> his lessons with Harry.
> 
> We only have a general idea of what Legilimens can accomplish, for 
a 
> start, when not resisted by its object.  For example, the memories 
> shown seem to be random, perhaps biased slightly in favour of 
> unpleasant memories.  Scenes from Pettigrew's childhood would not 
> tell Snape or Dumbledore a great deal.  They would have to light on 
> scenes directly involving the Death Eaters.
> 
> Legilimency does appear to confer an ability to tell if someone is 
> lying, though how this works isn't clear.  We know Occlumency can 
> counter this, since Voldemort apparently didn't rumble Snape.
> 
> The next question is whether the use of Occlumency can be detected 
> by the Legilimens.  In the hands of the novice Occlumens, yes, 
> clearly, because we know Snape could tell when Harry was blocking.  
> However, we know that Snape could spy on Voldemort undetected, 
which 
> implies that his Occlumency was so advanced that, not only could he 
> prevent Voldemort perceiving the truth, but presumably also provide 
> a stream of suitable memories to make Voldemort think his 
> Legilimency was succeeding.  Whether this was done by controlling 
> the flow of true memories to build up a partial picture, or 
> providing false ones as well, we don't know....
> 
> 
> We also don't know the extent to which successful Occlumency opens 
> up the mind of the Legilimens.  Harry managed it with Snape, but 
> that was using the Protego spell, which clearly gives the game 
> away.  would there have been a risk, supposing Snape tried to read 
> Moody's mind, or Dumbledore Pettigrew's, of the tables being turned 
> and sensitive information flowing the other way?
> 
> Then there is the final issue: under what conditions would 
> Dumbledore and Snape (and the wizarding world generally) consider 
> the use of Legilimency acceptable?  In training, clearly, but then 
> Dumbledore AFAWK sanctioned the use of Ungorgivable curses for 
> this.  But against a supposed ally?  One might suppose that, at the 
> time of recruitment it would be done.  But afterwards?  Suppose 
> Pettigrew genuinely joined the order and was only later 'turned' by 
> Voldemort - what degree of suspicion would order members feel 
> justified this form of invasion of privacy?  Again, we just don't 
> know.
> 
Now me (Zinaida):
I've also been wondering about these issues, especially about DD's 
aparent inability to perceive who was the spy in the 1st OtP, and 
especially considering the facts that Pettigrew "had been passing a 
lot of information" to Voldemort for a year and DD knew it was 
someone "close to the Potters" which narrows it down to 3 people.  
But it didn't occur to me that indeed Snape's being an 
Occlumence/Legilemens means he should have known who was telling the 
truth in the Srieking Shack.

It seems to me that in order to detect whether someone is telling the 
truth or not a legilemens doesn't need to use any spell or do 
anything conspicuous, even to the person in question.  For instance, 
when Voldemort says that Harry is lying about what he sees in the 
Mirrow of Erised (at the end of PS/SS), he doesn't have to use a wand 
or say any incantation or do any other conspicuos action - even to 
Harry (compare it with the effect of the Imperios curse when harry 
*knows* - feels it, or the legilemens curse: "the office swam in 
front of his eyes and vanished, image after image was racing through 
his mind..." (OtP, 534)).  Similarly when Voldemort says that Frank 
Bryce or Pettigrew lie to him in GoF, he also doesn't perform any 
spell to find it out.  I think it very probable that just to detect 
that one's interlocutor is lying a legilemens doesn't need to do 
anything at all - he just knows/feels it, but in order to get actual 
thoughts or memories he/she would have to use the legilemens spell.  

About when its use is acceptable - it's difficult to say about the 
use of the legilemens spell, but as for "lie detection" thing, if a 
legilemens can't help knowing when someone is lying to him/her, then 
he/she would have no choice.  And if by some act of will they could 
stop themselves from feeling it - something that seems rather 
doubtful to me - then certainly in the circumstances of war, when a 
maniacal dictator was taking over and picking off members of the 
resistance one by one, using one's lie-detecting abilities to detect 
a traitor would be quite justified - he had the future of all his 
country at stake, both wizard and muggle, not to mention the members 
of the order who trusted him!  

And considering that Pettigrew wasn't much of a wizard by all 
accounts (e.g., in PoA Prof. McGonagall speaks of his wizarding 
talents dismissively even when she thinks him a hero and reproaches 
herself for her impatience with him, and Voldemort also dismisses his 
talents in comparison with Crouch Jr.'s in GoF) and that Voldemort at 
least has no trouble figuring out when he is lying (in GoF).

Now I recognize that the least some ambiguity in the application of 
this lie-detecting ability.  For example, in PoA DD could have quite 
logically asked Lupin how he thought Siruis was getting into the 
castle and if he by any chance knew anything about him that could 
give them any hints (since they had been so close) and if Lupin had 
said "no," he would have lied but that doesn't really mean that he 
was a traitor.  (In fact, his behavior even when Harry asks him quite 
innocently if he had known Sirius, betrays him so much that one 
doesn't need any special abilities to know that something is not 
quite right.)  But surely, a clever man like DD could devise some 
thourough enough, leisurly conversation to get some idea.  (For 
instance, in this hypothetical situation, turning the conversation on 
Harry would have been enough to figure out that Lupin was not a 
traitor).  So how come he wasn't in close enough contact with the 
members of the small original OtP  - considering that he didn't have 
to subject them to any tests, just talk to them often enough to 
know?  (And how much time he'd have to spend with a person to know 
such a basic fact as where his/her loyalties lie - considering that V 
and resistance to him must have been the principal subject matter of 
all order conversations?)  It seems quite unexplainable to me, and my 
only hope is that JKR couldn't possibly give such a portenous ability 
to some key characters without thinking it all through.  Hopefully, 
there'll be some sort of explanation later on.            

About Snape in the Shack - consider how he "teaches" Harry 
occlumency:  "Snape struck before Harry was ready, before Harry had 
even begun to summon any force of resistance" (534).  And that's the 
first time he tries it!  (He also doesn't tell Harry how to resist it 
till Harry demands that he does, and as soon as Harry manages to 
reverse it for the first time, he comes back to his attack tactic.)  
And this is while Snape is perfectly aware of the necessity of 
Harry's mastering occlumency, and not only for his own sake.  It 
seems that while Snape wasn't purposefully "softening Harry for 
Voldemort," it's at least partly his fault that Harry felt ill for 
quite a while after these "lessons" and became easier for Voldemort 
to penetrate.  That is, although he tried to keep balance between his 
two conflicting "aims," I think in the end fighting back Voldemort 
took a back seat to the desire to "give Harry a hard time," as Sirius 
put it.  All of this made me think that, perhaps, Snape changed sides 
in the order's favor not because he realized the danger of a maniac 
like Voldemort running the country, but because he had some personal 
grudges against V too?  Maybe, he joined him in the first place to 
get back at James and co. (as well as his pureblood views and dark 
arts background), but seeing that V. treats his supporters not much 
better than his enemies, changed sides?  In fact, although Harry 
doesn't make the connection, James and Sirius did to Snape exactly 
what the Death Eaters did to muggles during the Quidditich match in 
GoF; maybe V did treat Snape as disdainfully at first as he treated 
Avery, Pettigrew, and co. (just "a greasy kid"), and Snape decided to 
take revenge on him.  Considering how he always invents opportunities 
at almost any lesson to get on the nerves of the *son* of the man who 
tormented him at school, how would he pursue the man himself!  This 
would also explain why DD doesn't trust Snape with the dark arts job. 
He knows that Snape hates V and so can trust him in general, but 
isn't sure how the constant contemplation of the dark arts will 
affect him, since his position seems to be based not on principles or 
understanding but on personal emotions, and his hatred of Harry is 
probably almost as strong as his hatred of Voldemort.  

And coming back to the shark - being a legilemens it's not so much a 
matter of deciding which sources are trustworthier than others, but 
just *listening* - which is precisely what Snape positively refuses 
to do; and although again he can't not understand the implications of 
making a mistake, getting revenge after all these years is obviously 
more important.  It's not the matter of knowing or not knowing who 
the DE is - he shuts everybody up, and that's it, as if he doesn't 
care.  No wonder he is described in this scene as "fanatical" 
and "beoynd reason," with "a mad glint in his eyes."

And yet at the end of OtP, in a more unemotional, usual situation 
(for him), he did go check Harry's information regarding Sirius's 
whereabouts and safety (or contacted DD about it).  
However, his position still seems a bit dubious.  No wonder JKR said 
at the Albert Hall meeting that we should watch Snape (approximate 
quotation - just the general meaning).  
(Just *why* was there no e-talk this time *after* people were 
supposed to have read the book - as after the previous books???)     

I also have a question regarding the thoughts/memories fetch 
legilemency - can a legilemens choose what he wishes to access or 
it's random?  Because it seems somewhat suspicious to me that *all* 
Harry's memories that surfaced were of a markedly unpleasant quality 
(humiliations, fears, or otherwise embarassing), many of them not 
recent and obviously not what Harry would naturally be thinking about 
at the moment.  Was Snape purposefully extracting a particular kind 
of memories - acting as a dementor, of sorts - to humiltiate 
Harry?                   

Sorry for such a long post,
Zinaida.