From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Oct 1 01:28:06 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 01:28:06 -0000 Subject: When Umbridge Takes Command (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81986 When Umbridge Takes Command (OOP, Chap. 28, 32) To the tune of When Velma Takes the Stand, from the stage version of Chicago (not used in the film) Dedicated to that most dedicated Chicago fan Haggridd NOTE: All of Umbridge's lines are spoken ? all of Filch & the Inquisitorial Squad's lines are sung. THE SCENE: The DADA office. With allies ARGUS FILCH & the newly- formed INQUISITORIAL SQUAD, UMBRIDGE plans the opening strategies of her new regime. UMBRIDGE (spoken): Argus, I been thinkin' a lot about posting Educational Decree Number 28. Couldn't I just show you what I thought I might do after Fudge signs off? FILCH (spoken, eagerly): Go ahead. UMBRIDGE: Good! (to the SQUAD) Hit it! The INQUISITORIAL SQUAD forms a spontaneous jazz-band, PARKINSON on the keyboards, MALFOY on sax, MONTAGUE on drums, BULSTRODE on bass- tuba (they were out of bass-fiddles) Well then, when I get into the Head's office, I'll take down all those dreary old portraits of the old Headmasters and replace them with some more cheerful ? like my technicolor kitties with those cute little bows around their furry fuzzy necks . FILCH & INQUISITORIAL SQUAD (music): When Umbridge takes command! UMBRIDGE: Then, when Harry speaks cross words me, I thought I'd give 'em this (throwing her black quill to Draco)...and then if he tells any more lies, I thought I'd make him tremble with this (she throws a monstrous-looking bullwhip to FILCH) UMBRIDGE (imitating Harry) ..."ooh, no, please stop!" FILCH & INQUISITORIAL SQUAD (music): When Umbridge takes command! Swelled up like a toad Gryffindor she'll goad Ain't she ultra-cruel? She's gotta be the best thing e'er came to our school! UMBRIDGE: Then, I thought I'd try something real dramatic. I'll invite Potter to my office for a little chat. After a few minutes, he'll be getting thirsty and he's sure to say, "Please, Headmistress, could I have a nice cold glass of Veritaserum?" FILCH & INQUISITORIAL SQUAD: When Umbridge takes command! See that Umbridge gal Make evil banal As she turns `em off She's gonna get 'em goin' as she gives her cough! UMBRIDGE: Then, I thought I'd spy. Trick `em! Let Harry sneak into my office to use the Floo Network, and that's when I`ll have Stealth Sensoring Spells placed all around my doorway. Then when he refuses to talk, I tell him about the dementors! I really like that part. Don't you? Then, I get Snape, but oh, no ? he's out of Veritaserum! and I shouldn't break the law, but I'm too morally weak, so I Crucio Potter and I curse and I curse and I curse and I curse until finally, he cracks! FILCH & INQUISITORIAL SQUAD: See each whipper-snap Get whipped by her strap When Umbridge takes command! When Umbridge takes command! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Wed Oct 1 01:29:49 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 01:29:49 -0000 Subject: Weasleys' accents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > I really hate to say this (and possibly things are different in WW) > but Arthur's chances of becoming a Minister, or even rising very high > in ministry circles, would be practically nil if he spoke with a > thick cockney accent. For some reason, Scottish, Yorkshire, Irish > etc. are acceptable but speak with a cockney accent and you have no > chance. This does not apply to show-business circles, where phony > cockney accents abound. > Sylvia Jeff: This is sad, but true. I've many instances where people have stated they hated certian people due to that accent. God forbid if you're from the North, like the Mersyside area, then they really think you a savage. Workingclass is really considered to be a bunch of wallys to many southerners. Jeff From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Wed Oct 1 01:35:42 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 01:35:42 -0000 Subject: Geography and accents; further thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > > Geoff: > > > On the question of Scots accents and pupils at the Hogwarts, bear > > in > > > mind that the pupils and staff are in a boarding school and will > be > > > rather isolated from their surroundings; I wouldn't expect them > to > > > develop Scots accents. > > > > > Jeff: > > That makes sense. I've noticed that while the books don't seem > to > > indicate that Oliver Wood is a scot and nobody mentions this on the > > list, how do they feel that he's been cast with a scot? Not that I > > don' like the actor. I think he's done a great job. I'm mad he's > been > > cut from POA as I've been wanting to see him obsess over quidditch > > practice. ;) > > > > > > > Geoff: > Two things. Practically, Sean Biggerstaff is a good actor and was > well cast as Oliver Wood. > > From the story point of view, there's no reason why there shouldn't > be a Scots student at a wizarding school in Scotland.... Jeff: I agree. Sean's done an excellent job, and after seeing the movies, when I read the stories, I can't help but hear that voice now. :) I'd be sad if he were meant to be a paddy or from Blackburn, Lancashire. :) True, being near the foot of the highlands, maybe, I wouldn't be shocked at all. :) Jeff From artcase at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 02:21:44 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 02:21:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Bridge (was: Dumbledore's Philosophy (was MAGIC DISHWASHER...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81989 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: ... > which may still have a secret or two to reveal. Who knows, maybe > Harry's scar is really a rune? Maybe he had it on his head before VD > attacked and it protected him? (I wish I could attach some canon to > this post, but, like so many others, I am at the office right now) > > Jake Actually,the lightning bolt is Sowelu, which stands for: wholeness, life forces, and the sun's energy (something my cats now at 10:13PM are too full of...knocking stuff over as they terrorize the house...) To quote "The Book of Runes" by Ralph Blum "... It embodies the impulse toward self-realization and indicates the path you must follow, not from ulterior motives, but from the core of your individuality. Seeking after Wholeness is the Spiritual Warrior's quest. Andyet what you are striving to become in actuality is what you, bu nature, already are. You must become conscious of your essence and bring it into form, express it in a creative way. A Rune of great power, making life force available to you, Sowelu marks a time for regeneration right down to the cellular level." The scientific nature of my sun sign makes me take the words "regeneration" and "Cellular" and apply them to the whole process which Harry defeated the AK curse. Maybe the scar wasn't caused by Voldemort, but by Lily to regenerate him as LV was killing him? No one else ever got a scar from the AK. A. From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 1 03:06:57 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 03:06:57 -0000 Subject: They are children's books (Was: the heart of it all) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81990 Hi - Golly said: > > I think that it is too soon to call the HP series anything > > I'm not sure how future generations will react to HP. I'm waiting to > see. Fair enough. As for me, I'm betting on them standing the test of time and academic and popular scrutiny. > King and Rowling have each had criticism from the same corner. The > so called Ivory Tower. The difference is that from the start, being > popular has earned Rowling much praise. Kids are obviously better > judges of literature than the average adult. Eh, well, both authors have also had their share of praise from the so-called Ivory Tower as well. For Rowling, there was Nimbus - 2003, which featured over 70 academics (though some still graduate students). Most of these academics were enthusiastic fans of the series, if not obsessives on the order of the average fan in attendance! The essays included in each of "The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter" (ed. Lana Whited) (excellent ...... I reviewed it in earlier this spring) and "Reading Harry Potter" (ed. Giselle Anatol) are, on the whole, quite complimentary to Rowling and her work. Even some of the essays included in Elizabeth's Heilman's "Multidisciplinary Perspectives on Harry Potter" aren't entirely judgmental and critical. Indeed my sense is that the academic community believes the HP books *will* be classics in due time (and deservedly so). > > I personally don't think Bloom is entirely off when he says that a > good chunk (ok he says all - but I take that as blustering extremism) > of Rowling's readers may grow up to read Stephen King over Hardy. A > good chunk of all readers grow up and never read classics after they > leave high school. You discount Stephen King; I discount Bloom entirely. I wouldn't listen to a word he says in future, as I find most everything he says on most topics to be pompous beyond measure. I said: > >He did, after all, write > > the NY Times review of GOF, so the the NY Times obviously felt he > was > > "qualified" to review Rowling. As to why he didn't write the > official > > NY Times review this go around, well, I have my theories.......... > Golly queried: > And they are.... Oh, just that the NY Times is entrenched/invested in the whole "children's bestseller list" debacle. It's in *their* interest to have the HP series remain labeled "children's lit," is it not? If it's *not* children's lit, then .....er.....Rowling's novels deserve to be reinstated to their rightful place on the "regular" bestseller list, yes? :--) > The NY times felt that Byatt was qualified to review Rowling and many > amongst this fanbase disagreed. Yes, I'm among those who thought her review was wrong-headed on many, if not most, points. <<<<<<< was qualified to review Rowling. I felt his discussion was a bit off > point. He had a few good points, but some of it is too strident for > children's books. (Remember he reviewed PS)>>>>>>>>>> He reviewed PS on the basis of having read the first "few chapters." He didn't even bother to read the entire book. That hardly qualifies him to write a review in a respected publication such as the Journal. I don't put much stock in reviews written by people who haven't even bothered to read the entire book they are reviewing. Golly: > Realistically if HP 7 is meant for a 17 year old, it will be an adult > novel. That is perhaps the weirdest thing about the series. I will > be interested to see how that plays out. I figure I have at least a > decade to wait. Oh, I *knew* we'd eventually agree on something! Of course, the question becomes: if Book 7 is technically speaking an "adult" novel (and I think you have to go by the fact that Rowling has been consistent about age 17 being "adult" in the wizarding world and that Harry will turn 17 at the *beginning* of Book 7), then how is the *series* to be viewed? "Children's literature except for the last volume"??? It is my opinion that the series will eventually be viewed as either a hybrid of juvenile/YA/adult OR as just literature. Just literature without any tags or qualifiers. Penny From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 04:08:54 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:08:54 -0000 Subject: Padfoot's Last Stand - The Ballad of Sirius Black (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81991 Padfoot's Last Stand - The Ballad Of Sirius Black To the tune of Growltiger's Last Stand from Cats Here is the midi: http://www.hamienet.com/midi2675.html. The setting: A darkened stage, lights come up softly spotlighting Lupin and Harry. LUPIN: Padfoot was a bravo dog who travelled with the three Along with Prongs and Wormtail, there was Moony - that was me. On full moon nights in Hogsmeade we gallumped around the land Rejoicing in the title of 'Marauder Merry Band'! But those were wicked days with murders coming by the score, And everybody dreaded a Dark Mark above the door. James and Lily Potter hid behind a magic screen, But their poor lives both ended in a blinding flash of green. Peter the betrayer, Padfoot understood at last. But when he went to find him, Peter caused a mighty blast. A dozen muggles died that day, and Peter up and ran. When the verdict came for Padfoot, it was life in Azkaban! Woe to Peter Pettigrew, a friendship that went wrong. Woe to the ratimagus that would always tag along. Woe the fam'ly pet who goes to Egypt for the views. And woe to any rat who gets his photo in the news! No walls could keep our Padfoot in when vengeance is in store. He headed out to Hogwarts school to settle up the score. The Minister of Magic dispatched quick upon the trail A posse of Dementors to bring Padfoot back to jail. HARRY: (after a 2 bar intro) It was in the Shrieking Shack I learned what Padfoot was to me My father's dearest buddy and no criminal was he. Godfather and godson we were - a family of two. But first to take this rat away was what we had to do. (1 bar intro) Just then the forest moonlight ignited werewolf's curse I conjured a Patronus to deflect Dementor thirst. With Dumbledore to help us, Padfoot never asked what-if, He flew away to freedom on a stolen Hippogriff. But what the cost of freedom when you're always on the run? You can never smell a flower, never see a summer sun? Only once he ventured outward in his doggie-face disguise But was spotted thus by Malfoy as we offered our goodbyes. So Sirius was trapped inside the Black ancestral home His head a little off from spending too much time alone. Reduced to doing housework with his Mum behind the drape And listening to insults coming from Professor Snape. LUPIN: I should have seen the tension building up from all the stress. I should have seen the increase in the Padfoot recklessness. But when we heard that the Voldemort had out-manuevered Harry Death Eaters could expect in us a lethal adversary. (Spoken quickly over the sounds of battle): Sirius and Moody, Tonks and Shacklebolt and Me We got there just as Malfoy almost had the prophecy. The Order battled fiercely raining spell on deadly spell But none could equal Sirius, the man released from Hell. HARRY: (Sung over battle sounds) Fourteen years of fury went along with each attack A lifetime's worth of misery he now was giving back. But the Order was outnumbered and the foe was quick and true. First Moody was defeated and then Tonks was taken too. LUPIN: Bellatrix triumphant, she rushed back into the fray For Padfoot it was blood feud - he would make his cousin pay. She shot and missed, he spat a taunt, but then she shot once more. A look of shock we saw as he fell backward through the door. "Get him, save him!" Harry cried, "He's only just gone through!" But when a man has crossed that way, there's nothing one can do. (the lights come up to show Luna watching from nearby) LUNA: Harry, it is not so bad, don't look so sad and pale. We'll see them all again, you see, the spirits of the veil. ~ Constance Vigilance From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 1 06:49:54 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 06:49:54 -0000 Subject: House Elfs - why DID Dobby help Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > ....................... > now me (laura) > > We know that Kreacher left 12 Grimmauld Place to join the branch of > the family more in keeping with his ideology. My theory is that the > Malfoys and the Potters are somehow related - canon tells us that all > the Pureblood families are interrelated via marriage. I get the > impression that the Potter's were a Pureblood family sometime in the > recent past, thus would be related in some manner to the Malfoys. > Therefore, Dobby could seek out Harry, as he would be a branch of the > family more suited to his ideology. > sorry if i've brought something screamingly obvious up... > Geoff: Surely Harry's half-blood status comes via Lily so saying that the Potter family was pureblood "sometime in the recent past" is wrong because they are /still/ pureblood. The elf connection would be from James. From oppen at mycns.net Wed Oct 1 07:56:36 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 02:56:36 -0500 Subject: New Filk: Riding on a Thestral Message-ID: <007901c387f1$8ad3a4a0$e4560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 81993 ---------- Riding on a Thestral ttto "City of New Orleans" Riding on a Thestral south from Hogwarts, Hurtling onward through the empty air, With my friends from school all coming with me, Hope that we can all safely get there. Ron's complaints are getting shrill I wish that he would just stay still, And Luna's singing out "Ho-yo-to-ho!" Hermione just plays it cool 'Course, you know that she's no fool, And I don't think there's much she doesn't know. Good morning, Ministry, how are you? Now, don't you know me? I'm the Potter boy! I'm here to save my godfather from evil, The Death Eaters have come here to destroy! Sitting on a Thestral, close to heaven, Looking up at stars and skies of black, Neville's really taking this quite calmly, Hope he'll be the same when we attack. And Ginny Weasley's coming too, She wants words with You-Know-Who, Her temper's like her hair, they're both bright red, If she catches Voldemort She's got plans to pay that score Before she's done, he'll wish that he were dead! Good morning, Ministry, how are you? Now, don't you know me? I'm the Potter lad! I'm here to rescue my godfather >From wizards who have really been quite bad! Descending on my Thestral, down to London, I can see the city's lights below, The Thestrals really know just how to get here, I hope they take their landing nice and slow! And as we climb off of our steeds The next thing that each of us needs Is badges that'll let us in the door, So we squeeze into the booth Tell the fellytone the truth, We get six badges, just that much, no more. Good morning, Ministry, how are you? Now, don't you know me? I'm the Potter lad! I'm going on in to fight the nameless dark lord I'm going to prove to you that I'm not mad! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net Wed Oct 1 01:26:10 2003 From: KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net (Kagome Shikon Seeker) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:26:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81994 Geoff Bannister wrote: Towards the end of COS, Dumbledore explains to the Weasleys that very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once Tom Riddle and had been at Hogwarts. Therefore, those brave enough not to say "You Know Who" or whatever presumably only know the title LV. ******** I think it's true. DD knows that LV was Tom Riddle, but he comments that few do. Why he never told anyone is beyond me, unless he felt it would give the DE's too much power to have that information - but presumably they know or figure it out, since LV ends up using his father's bone for his resurrection spell. Therefore the only ones being still kept in the dark are the 'good guys', which is foolishness on DD's part. (Knowledge being power, and all that.) When DD encounters LV at the end of OoP, he calls him "Tom". I thought that was interesting; I thought it equally interesting that the only two people around were Harry - who already knew the information - and Bellatrix, who was pinned by a statue trying to kill her, so presumably was too busy to worry about such a triviality. But as it's unlikely that DD and LV have had direct face-to-face contact in the past (or probably one of them would be dead now), DD's slip up may not have occurred before that instance. (Assuming it was a slip up, which it may not have been.) From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 01:59:42 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 01:59:42 -0000 Subject: House Elfs - why DID Dobby help Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81995 Kneazle255 wrote: i have questions about Dobby's motivations in CoS. There is no overt reason why Dobby would think Harry was in any particular danger. Dobby knows about the diary. The diary's purpose is to kill muggleborns. Harry is not muggleborn. Why does he assume Harry is in mortal danger? Lucius' apparent purpose is to get DD out of Hogwarts and discredit the Weasleys. There is no hint that Lucius knows that the diary has its own will or that it is capable of bringing Riddle back. I think Lucius would have used the diary differently if he realized it was a means to bring back his Dark Lord.) If Dobby knows what Lucius knows and no more, his motivations don't make sense. He has to know more than Lucius. He WOULD know more if he were orginally a Potter elf. dcyasser wrote: Harry knows at this point that Voldemort is a threat to him - he just doesn't know how much of a threat. Dobby does. And Dobby will go to any lengths to protect Harry, and therefore the whole WW (EW?) from Voldemort. Plus, Dobby really, really, really likes Harry. Now, if Dobby knows, does Lucius know? Kneazle255: I pretty certainthat Dobby knows more than Lucius. In the polyjuice scene Draco states pretty clearly what Lucius intends-- Kill mudbloods and get rid of Dumbledore. And Draco never says he hopes Harry is going to die. He does hope Hermione is killed. My first thought was Dobby was originally a Potter elf, but what if there were some sort of House Elf information network? I know house elves aren't allowed to betray secrets about their families to other wizards, but what if they talk amongst themselves? From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Wed Oct 1 02:41:06 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:41:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many Rons per Hermione - numerical analysis of Ron's alleged decline References: Message-ID: <000b01c387c5$77c96420$de91aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 81996 Iggy (me): > > 2 - Hermione was more appropriate to have more active in OotP than > Ron was. > > Rather than strain to try and make Ron a stronger presence in the > books, she > > went with the person who was more appropriate... Hermione. Golly: > I wouldn't agree. Harry was miserable in this book. It was > traditionally Ron's role to take Harry's mind off his troubles and > ease his pain with humour and friendliness. I think the fact that > Ron was either not around to do that or unable do this is > significant. It means their relationship is changing and so will > Ron's role in the series. Rowling will have to over the next book > redefine why and how Harry and Ron are friends (if they are at all). > > Hermione was traditionally horrible at making Harry feel better and > entertaining him. That is changing too. > > Ron's absence in this book is not a fluke. > I think you misunderstand me here. I didn't say that Hermione was the most apropriate to cheer Harry up. I said that she was the more appropriate of the two to be involved in the events that were happening. 1: Hermione giving advice about how to deal with Cho is a lot more appropriate. Hermione is a girl only slightly younger than Cho. Ron is a boy slightly younger than Cho... and is also clueless about girls. (Something which has been illustrated in the books a number of times.) 2: Many of the events needed Harry to learn to look at things more objectively... or, at least, try to... Hermione is MUCH better than Ron in helping with this. (Think of Hermione as Harry's intellectual counterpart, and Ron as Harry's emotional one.) 3: We've seen Hermione pursuing her own goals away from the trio in earlier books. (SPEW being an example... as are her more intense studies...), so it's about time Ron was shown to start pursuing goals outside of the trio as well. (We even saw in SS/PS how much he wants to be in the Quidditch team... and have had some other illustrations as to how much he loves the game.) 4: OotP is a book where it was important for Harry to experience that pain, angst, and loneliness in order for him to grow and his eyes to open to the realities of both the WW, and life itself. Having Ron there to lean on all the time, comfort him, and cheer him up would have defeated this purpose. "Into every life, rain must fall." I hope this clarifies some things. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Money Talks! (Mine always says "goodbye.")" -- Another of Iggy's bumper stickers From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Wed Oct 1 03:26:07 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 03:26:07 -0000 Subject: How many Rons per Hermione - numerical analysis of Ron's alleged decline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81997 > Robyn: > Yes, I would definitely agree that Ron's importance to Harry > diminished in OotP, and for many reasons. One important > reason, IMO, is that the plot required that Ron give way to Sirius, > as the most important person in Harry's life. In GoF, Ron was > the thing that Harry would most miss, during the second task. In > OotP, however, it wasn't Ron that LV tricked Harry into believing > had been taken captive, and which ultimately lured him to the > Ministry of Magic, it was Sirius. I think that Ron will return to a > more prominent role in the remaining books, unless, gasp, JKR > is preparing us for Ron's demise. Me (Gorda): I have to admit I had not noticed a diminished appearance of Ron in OoP. Rather, I was struck by how much more important as a character he has become. JKR seems to be moving him out of the "sidekick" role: he became prefect, not Harry, and he helped Gryffindor win the Cup, which would ordinarily have been Harry's job. He also lasted longer in the DoM fight than Hermione (although Hermione has become important in other respects). My point is that Ron is becoming much more than just Harry's best friend, so even if his name was mentioned less, it seems to me that JKR is striving to make the trio much more even as far as carrying the load of the story, IMHO. From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Wed Oct 1 03:44:36 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 03:44:36 -0000 Subject: Will Draco come back? & Character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > > draco382 wrote: > in time for all these long years to make a big bangy point later on -- > namely that central theme of the whole story so far -- its one's > choices that make them who they are. If you ask me, Draco's > redemption is going to be one of the biggest moments in the whole > story > > kneazle responds: > I have not seen anything redeemable in Draco in canon. Draco makes > the same choices over and over again, and they all evil in the same > vicious little way. > > I don't like Draco, but if you could point out one good point or > anything worthwhile about DM I would be happy to reread it. > Gorda: This is very interesting, because I was just thinking about this today. I don't necessarily like Draco much, but I do think he is reedemable, precisely by what he has NOT done or shown in canon. Namely, Draco has done everything he can to annoy the heck out of the trio, and says some very rude things, but all the things he has done have been more of the Spoiled Brat!Draco variety than the Really Evil!Draco variety. I mean, he has yet to actually cause serious damage to the trio, or to anyone else, for that matter. He says he enjoys the various dark goings-on (the basilisk, Cedric's death) but, I mean, what has he actually done that qualifies as DE evil? (trying to get Hagrid sacked,while mean, IMO is a far fry from trying to have him killed, say) I think JKR has written Draco in as much more than just Harry's schoolboy nemesis. Draco is the anti-Harry in many ways, he has been treated by his parents in the way that DD feared Harry would be treated had he been raised in the WW, turning him into a spoiled brat. And spoiled as he is, I find it difficult to see him doing something really evil (say, performing a Cruciatus Curse on someone). Also pointed out by the Draco/Hermione shippers, he has on occassion said things that may be interpreted as helpful (like during the World Cup riot). I don't believe this is cause for shipping, but i do think this shows Draco is not as evil as he wants to be. Also as other people have pointed out, Snape is sort of a mentor to Draco, and as I am a firm believer in an essentially Good!Snape, I think he has been steering Draco in the right direction. My guess for the bangy Redemption!Draco is that he will be asked by his father or other DE to do something truly evil and he will not have the guts or the ability to do it... From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 05:35:30 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 05:35:30 -0000 Subject: Dobby helped Harry but can he tell time ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 81999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > > Dobby was freed by Harry from the employ of the Malfoys at the end of > CoS which is at the end of Harry's year 2. Yet in the middle of year 4 > when Hermione has gotten Harry and Ron into the elf kitchen, dobby > exclaims "Dobby has traveled the country for two whole years, sir, > trying to find work!" (GOF 378 US ed) > Hmm elf time different from Wizard time ? > I wonder what Dobby's exact status with the Malfoys was at the time he > helped Harry? Somehow, I DONT think that this is a flint...... > > Any ideas? Hmmmm... never thought of that. However, Dobby had been going all sorts of places even while serving the Malfoys. (Privet Drive, Hospital Wing, etc.) Perhaps he had been 'traveling the country' for two whole years, but not looking for work the WHOLE time. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 1 10:09:47 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 10:09:47 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kagome Shikon Seeker" wrote: > Geoff Bannister wrote: > > Towards the end of COS, Dumbledore explains to the Weasleys that very > few people know that Lord Voldemort was once Tom Riddle and had been > at Hogwarts. Therefore, those brave enough not to say "You Know Who" > or whatever presumably only know the title LV. > > ******** > Kagome: > I think it's true. DD knows that LV was Tom Riddle, but he comments that > few do. Why he never told anyone is beyond me, unless he felt it would give > the DE's too much power to have that information - but presumably they know > or figure it out, since LV ends up using his father's bone for his > resurrection spell. Therefore the only ones being still kept in the dark > are the 'good guys', which is foolishness on DD's part. (Knowledge being > power, and all that.) > Geoff: I'm not sure that it is necessary for folk to know that LV was TR. Dumbledore comments that Tom dropped out of sight for years before resurfacing as Voldemort. The few folk who knew might have been his old cronies from Hogwarts but, in a sense "Voldemort was Tom Riddle - so?" would probably be the reaction of many folk. Kaome: > When DD encounters LV at the end of OoP, he calls him "Tom". I thought that > was interesting; I thought it equally interesting that the only two people > around were Harry - who already knew the information - and Bellatrix, who > was pinned by a statue trying to kill her, so presumably was too busy to > worry about such a triviality. But as it's unlikely that DD and LV have had > direct face-to-face contact in the past (or probably one of them would be > dead now), DD's slip up may not have occurred before that instance. > (Assuming it was a slip up, which it may not have been.) Geoff: It might have been an attempt to re-establish some sort of empathy, or an appeal to his pre-Voldemort self. It might also have been to divert LV's attention away from Harry after the failed AK attempt. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Oct 1 10:17:47 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 10:17:47 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > <> > > >> Kneasy: > > 6. Sirius, Peter, Ron, Harry, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all depart via > > the tunnel under the Whomping Willow to the Shack. > > > > stupid question from Shirley: > *Who* is Uncle Tom Cobbleigh, or is this just another way of > saying 'everybody and their dog' (meaning, lots of people, and I > don't want to list them all right now, thanks)? > > Shirley, who sort of stumbled over that part of your narrative, but > was quite engrossed, nonetheless It's a fairly common phrase in the UK. It comes from the chorus of a traditional song - Widdecombe Fair; there's a whole list of folk on their way there - Jan Stewart, Peter Gurney, Peter Davy, etc. and it ends "old Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all". It's used to signify a motley crowd almost too numerous to identify. Sorry if I caused confusion. Kneasy From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Oct 1 12:14:32 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:14:32 -0000 Subject: They are children's books (Was: the heart of it all) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82002 Golly wrote: > OOTP made that clearer than ever by continuing a focus in on Harry > and allowing us to see very little of what the Order and other adults > were doing. Instead she gave us details about OWLS, Quidditch, teen > romance and teen angst. All perfectly reasonable for a target > audience of youngish teenagers. I personally would have preferred to > know what the Order did in more detail. That BTW is not a criticism > of OOTP, just personal interest. I find the lives of HP's adults > more > intriguing this time around than who will be named prefect and > Quidditch captain. I realize that school life with its troubles or > triumphs are more interesting to children than the adventures or > daily life of Molly and Arthur. As an adult reader, I accept that > difference in perspective is part of reading a child's series. I believe this line of argument is misguided. As readers, we are interested in what the Order is doing because the story indicates it is important, not, IMO, because as adults we are identiyfy more with the adult characters. Likewise, issues such as Quidditch diminish in the light of the gradual revelation of the larger plot. I would say that these school- related issues in fact assume less prominence in OOP for precisely this reason. Again, the loss of interest is a function of the text, not the reader's identification. David From o_caipora at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 12:43:51 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:43:51 -0000 Subject: Will Draco come back? & Character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82003 Rowling is big on plot. Also big on foreshadowing. As posted here previously, the long exposition of the Black family tree in OOTP provides an answer to the question "Who inherits 12 Grimaud Place?" and the answer is "Draco Malfoy". This may be innocuous. "Entailment" provides standard plot twists for eightteenth century novel, but Rowling may not follow that tradition. Once the war against Voldy is in the open, the Order may not need a "secret" headquarters. Possibly Sirius gave a formal lease to the Order, leaving Draco with the right to collect rent for 30 years but without the right to occupy. But why would Rowling so carefully plant clues that Draco inherits, and then find a way that he does not? It would have been simpler to cut out the whole family tree bit that left Draco not only the closest but the only named male heir. Or to have written someone else in as being closer. Whatever the future holds for Draco, Rowling has clearly foreshadowed that it hold the title deed to 12 Grimaud Place. That suggests some pivotal role for good or evil. - Caipora --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adsong16" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" > wrote: > > > > draco382 wrote: > > in time for all these long years to make a big bangy point later on -- > > namely that central theme of the whole story so far -- its one's > > choices that make them who they are. If you ask me, Draco's > > redemption is going to be one of the biggest moments in the whole > > story > > > > kneazle responds: > > I have not seen anything redeemable in Draco in canon. Draco makes > > the same choices over and over again, and they all evil in the same > > vicious little way. > > > > I don't like Draco, but if you could point out one good point or > > anything worthwhile about DM I would be happy to reread it. > > > > Gorda: > This is very interesting, because I was just thinking about this today. I don't > necessarily like Draco much, but I do think he is reedemable, precisely by > what he has NOT done or shown in canon. Namely, Draco has done > everything he can to annoy the heck out of the trio, and says some very rude > things, but all the things he has done have been more of the Spoiled > Brat!Draco variety than the Really Evil!Draco variety. I mean, he has yet to > actually cause serious damage to the trio, or to anyone else, for that matter. > He says he enjoys the various dark goings-on (the basilisk, Cedric's death) > but, I mean, what has he actually done that qualifies as DE evil? (trying to get > Hagrid sacked,while mean, IMO is a far fry from trying to have him killed, say) > > I think JKR has written Draco in as much more than just Harry's schoolboy > nemesis. Draco is the anti-Harry in many ways, he has been treated by his > parents in the way that DD feared Harry would be treated had he been raised > in the WW, turning him into a spoiled brat. And spoiled as he is, I find it difficult > to see him doing something really evil (say, performing a Cruciatus Curse on > someone). Also pointed out by the Draco/Hermione shippers, he has on > occassion said things that may be interpreted as helpful (like during the World > Cup riot). I don't believe this is cause for shipping, but i do think this shows > Draco is not as evil as he wants to be. > > Also as other people have pointed out, Snape is sort of a mentor to Draco, > and as I am a firm believer in an essentially Good!Snape, I think he has been > steering Draco in the right direction. > > My guess for the bangy Redemption!Draco is that he will be asked by his > father or other DE to do something truly evil and he will not have the guts or > the ability to do it... From tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 1 10:25:17 2003 From: tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk (tobyreiner) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 10:25:17 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82004 > Geoff: > It might have been an attempt to re-establish some sort of empathy, > or an appeal to his pre-Voldemort self. It might also have been to > divert LV's attention away from Harry after the failed AK attempt. Toby: I don't think it's an attempt to establish empathy, I think it's a jibe. He's saying "You may think you're some kind of Lord, but I know you're still plain old, muggle-born Tom". Might have achieved an even better effect if he'd called him Thomas. Which is why I think he really ought to be calling him Tom to everyone. Lord Voldemort isn't a Lord, except to him and his supporters. Why is Dumbledore so willing to accept his claims of being a Lord? From jamess at climax.co.uk Wed Oct 1 10:25:03 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (jamess at climax.co.uk) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:25:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's name Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530185441F@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 82005 Geoff Bannister wrote: Towards the end of COS, Dumbledore explains to the Weasleys that very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once Tom Riddle and had been at Hogwarts. Therefore, those brave enough not to say "You Know Who" or whatever presumably only know the title LV. James Writes: I had a flick through the books last night and came up with an idea. Did DD atualy know that TR=LV before the events of CS? The signficance of DD calling LV "Tom" during the fight in OotP may have been a "ha! I know who you are now!" thing. From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 11:36:01 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 11:36:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82006 Kaome: When DD encounters LV at the end of OoP, he calls him "Tom". (snip) DD's slip up may not have occurred before that instance. Assuming it was a slip up, which it may not have been.) Geoff: It might have been an attempt to re-establish some sort of empathy, or an appeal to his pre-Voldemort self. It might also have been to divert LV's attention away from Harry after the failed AK attempt. Kneazle255: I thought it was deliberate psychological warfare--DD trying to knock Voldemort off his game by saying something DD knew would upset him and very succinctly putting the Dark Lord in his place. Tom is facing his old teacher, and DD is pointing that out. It's Dumbledore saying, "I don't buy the fear you are trying to generate. I know the boy behind the mask. So you think you can take me, Junior?" From minaclare at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 1 12:08:01 2003 From: minaclare at sympatico.ca (Mina-Clare Moseley) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:08:01 -0400 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: <1065007570.6842.49347.m12@yahoogroups.com> References: <1065007570.6842.49347.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82007 Kagome Shikon Seeker writes: >When DD encounters LV at the end of OoP, he calls him "Tom". I thought that >was interesting; I thought it equally interesting that the only two people >around were Harry - who already knew the information - and Bellatrix, who >was pinned by a statue trying to kill her, so presumably was too busy to >worry about such a triviality. But as it's unlikely that DD and LV have had >direct face-to-face contact in the past (or probably one of them would be >dead now), DD's slip up may not have occurred before that instance. >(Assuming it was a slip up, which it may not have been.) There are a few points in your post that I have to disagree with. I think that Dumbledore and Voldemort had to have some sort of fight in the past. When you think about it, Tom Riddle as a sixteen-year-old, thought of Dumbledore as nothing more than the Transfigurations Professor. If he were a famous dark wizard fighter at that time, I'm sure he would have commented on it. Second, Voldemort is *incredibly* arrogant. He believes he is the most powerful wizard to ever exist. The only wizard he fears at all is Dumbledore (and now Harry). I think the only way Voldemort could let his fear take precedence over his arrogance is if they had fought to a standstill. If I may also pose a theory that you might find interesting: As a young Dark Lord, Tom Riddle/Voldemort decides to face off against Dumbledore. If Dumbledore were really as powerful as he is made out to be, I don't think arrogant young Voldie would let this opportunity go by. Tom/Voldie fights Dumbledore and *loses*. Dumbledore, being magnanimous as he is, lets him go with a warning. This would give Voldemort reason to fear Dumbledore and would help explain why Dumbledore fights so tirelessly to defeat Voldemort-- he feels guilty. As to why Dumbledore calls Voldemort "Tom", I cannot at all believe this is a slip-up. Calling Voldemort "Tom" demeans him. He has fought for the past fifty years to shed himself of this name. It is the name of his Muggle father, who abandoned his mother. Voldemort can't stand the name. Calling Voldemort "Tom" takes away his power, on a mental level. ~Mina-Clare From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 1 13:21:19 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:21:19 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530185441F@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82008 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jamess at c... wrote: > Geoff Bannister wrote: > > Towards the end of COS, Dumbledore explains to the Weasleys that very > few people know that Lord Voldemort was once Tom Riddle and had been > at Hogwarts. Therefore, those brave enough not to say "You Know Who" > or whatever presumably only know the title LV. > > James Writes: > > I had a flick through the books last night and came up with an idea. Did DD > atualy know that TR=LV before the events of CS? The signficance of DD > calling LV "Tom" during the fight in OotP may have been a "ha! I know who > you are now!" thing. Geoff: Looking at Dumbledore's comments and reactions in COS (p.242 UK edition), I think he did know. He appears to know that Riddle disappeared, travelled far and wide etc. Regarding his name, I suspect that he is probably Tom and not Thomas; if not, why did he tend to use the form Tom Marvolo Riddle? Don't tell me - Thomas Marvolo Riddle wouldn't give such a good anagram! Re Dumbledore calling him "Tom". I often have contact with old pupils; some folk I taught are now into their fifties. I still tend to address them by their first names. It's what I was used to doing in years past. Is Dumbledore more likely to want to make LV feel small or to try to reach something reachable? I shall duck, don a tin hat, duck behind the battlements and wait for the theories to fly over me. From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Oct 1 13:22:31 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:22:31 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Contest to Rename the Former Humongous Bigfile Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82009 Greetings from Hexquarters! Many of you may have noticed that file which we send to all new members, containing our posting guidelines and other useful information (formerly the Humongous Bigfile), has the curious title "[insert new title here]". Many older members may also recall that when the new, slimmed-down not-so-humongous guidelines were introduced, nominations were solicited for a new title, and we promised to hold a renaming contest. At long last, the contest is here! Please go to the polls section to review the nominees and vote for your favorite. The poll will remain open for two weeks. At the conclusion of the poll, the winning entry and the member who proposed it will be announced. The contest winner will receive an award for Special Services to the School, which will be kept in the trophy room and polished regularly by the list elves. Debbie Elf for the list admin team From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Wed Oct 1 13:22:35 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2003 13:22:35 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1065014555.375.64265.w14@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82010 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: What should the new title of the HPFGU admin guidelines (formerly the Humongous Bigfile) be? o A Beginner's Guide to HPFGU o Ancient Rules Made Easy o Basic Posts for the Busy and Vexed o Charm Your Own Posts o Gadding With Grownups o Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to HPFGU Posts o Handbook of Do-It-Yourself HPFGU Care o Hermione's Required Reading o HPFGU House Rules o HPFGU Netiquette o KwikPost o Mesmerizing the Masses - A Study of Posting Strategies for HPFGU o Moste Potente Posts o Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now That You've Signed Up o Potter Politesse o The Amazing Bouncing File o The Barmy Old File o The Fabulous Fridwulfa File o The Hogwarts Letter o The Standard Book of HPFGU, Grade 1 o The Standard Book of Spells, Grade 1 o The Ton Tongue Toffee File o The Twitchy Little File o The Wonky File To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1140751 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 1 14:05:46 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:05:46 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82011 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Re Dumbledore calling him "Tom". I often have contact with old > pupils; some folk I taught are now into their fifties. I still tend > to address them by their first names. It's what I was used to doing > in years past. > > Is Dumbledore more likely to want to make LV feel small or to try to > reach something reachable? I shall duck, don a tin hat, duck behind > the battlements and wait for the theories to fly over me. Jen: I viewed the scene where Dumbledore calls Voldemort 'Tom' as being a very tactical, but not vindictive, move on Dumbledore's part. We know from the graveyard scene in GOF that Voldemort was "willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower....I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength." (GOF, US, chap. 33, p. 656). Dumbledore knows Voldemort is "back in his old body again" as well, when Harry relates the events of the Graveyard scene. So in this interaction, I believe Dumbledore is working on two levels: 1) To remind Voldemort he is no longer immortal, and that Dumbledore knows this and 2) to appeal to any tiny *sliver* of humanity that may exist in that "old body" i.e. some echo of a memory of Tom Riddle. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 15:12:46 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:12:46 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mina-Clare Moseley wrote: > When you think about it, Tom Riddle as a sixteen-year-old, thought of Dumbledore as nothing more than the Transfigurations Professor. If he were a famous dark wizard fighter at that time, I'm sure he would have commented on it. Laura: But wouldn't Tom's time at Hogwarts have been after the Grindelwald incident in 1945? It was 50 years before CoS, which was late 90's, right? The use of Tom's name is typical DD, I think-it works on several levels, as Jen pointed out, and DD is going to try whatever works to weaken LV. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 1 15:29:24 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:29:24 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: >> Alas, long after St. Vander Ark laid down the Lexiconic gospel you > rely on, Dumbledore tells us that it was he, DUMBLEDORE, (not Lily) > who made the "decision" that Harry would be protected by a > certain "ancient magic" likely to slide under LV's radar.(OoP 835) > > Moreover, that's not the only "ancient magic" that uses a parental > soup base. Recall that "old piece of Dark Magic" (GoF 656) that > required some "Bone of the father....Flesh of the Servant... and > Blood of the Enemy?" (GoF 641-42) Odd fabric of creation, that. Jen: In the discussions on Ancient Magic, I think a distinction needs to be made between Ancient Magic and Dark Magic because they seem to be two different things in canon. The Ancient Magic Dumbledore refers to and takes advantage of appears to form a permanent bond between two people, until one should fulfill or break that bond. It implies a positive relationship even if the relationship between the two is negative or even non-existent prior to the magic that bonds them: ".....When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them....This is magic at its deepest, most impenetrable, Harry." (Dumbledore, POA, chap. 22, p. 426) The Fidelius Charm is "An immensely complex spell ..involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret Keeper ." (Prof. Flitwick, POA, chap. 10, p. 205) "You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he {Voldemort} knows, but which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated--to his cost. I am speaking of course of the fact that your mother died to save you." (Dumbledore, OOTP, Chap. 37, pps. 835- 836) "She {Petunia} may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet she still took you, and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you." (Dumbledore, OOTP, chap. 37, p. 836) "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort.....your aunt knows this.....She knows that allowing you houseroom may well have kept you alive for the past fifteen years." (DD, OOTP,chap. 37, p. 836) It's also important to note, in all these examples, that a choice is made to activate the bond: Harry chooses to save Wormtail when he begs for mercy, Wormtail agrees to be Secret Keeper, Lily chose to give up her own life for Harry, Petunia agrees to house Harry. ************************************** Dark Magic is different, or perhaps a subset of Ancient Magic. From the examples we have, Dark Magic doesn't imply a positive relationship between people, but rather a forced relationship without full disclosure and true consent by at least one of the people involved: "So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted....I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets.....I grew... powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to pour a little of *my* soul back into *her*..." (Riddle, COS, Chap. 17, p. 310) "Never trust anything that can think for itself *if you can't see where it keeps its brain*. Why didn't you show the diary to me, or your mother? A suspicious object like that, it was clearly full of Dark Magic--" (Arthur, COS, chap. 18, p. 328) "Bone of the father, unknowingly given...flesh of the servant willingly given...Blood of the enemy, forcibly taken..." (Potion ingedients, GOF, chap 32, pps. 641-642). In the next chapter, Voldemort refers to this potion as "an old piece of Dark Magic" (p. 656) Also, possessing others may be a form of Dark Magic but the text doesn't specifically say that. Summarizing, I'd say there's a definite distinction between the two, and Dumbledore has yet to use Dark Magic by the canon criteria we have so far. From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Wed Oct 1 17:25:18 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:25:18 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mina-Clare Moseley > wrote: > > > When you think about it, Tom Riddle as a sixteen-year-old, thought > of Dumbledore as nothing more than the Transfigurations Professor. > If he were a famous dark wizard fighter at that time, I'm sure he > would have commented on it. > > Laura: > > But wouldn't Tom's time at Hogwarts have been after the Grindelwald > incident in 1945? It was 50 years before CoS, which was late 90's, > right? > > The use of Tom's name is typical DD, I think-it works on several > levels, as Jen pointed out, and DD is going to try whatever works to > weaken LV. I thought when he used the name "Tom" that he was trying to humanize LV, force him to remember that underneath all the transformations and changes, that he is still "Tom Riddle." And it occured to me that Dumbledore's telling him there are other ways of defeating a man than by killing him, might just be what Dumbledore's after. Humanizing LV would defeat him, by LV's own lights. Jennifer From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 1 17:41:02 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:41:02 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mina-Clare Moseley > wrote: > > > When you think about it, Tom Riddle as a sixteen-year-old, thought > of Dumbledore as nothing more than the Transfigurations Professor. > If he were a famous dark wizard fighter at that time, I'm sure he > would have commented on it. > > Laura: > > But wouldn't Tom's time at Hogwarts have been after the Grindelwald > incident in 1945? It was 50 years before CoS, which was late 90's, > right? > > The use of Tom's name is typical DD, I think-it works on several > levels, as Jen pointed out, and DD is going to try whatever works to > weaken LV. Geoff: Yhis has been mentioned before on the group and I have just confirmed it via the Lexicon. Harry's DoB is 31/07/80, so he came to Hogwarts in 1991 and the COS incident was in 1992. Theefore, the previous opening - which also involved Tom Riddle - was 1942. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Oct 1 18:37:22 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:37:22 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82016 The use of Tom's name is typical DD, I think-it works on several > levels, as Jen pointed out, and DD is going to try whatever works to > weaken LV. Exactly, this is perfectly normal for Dumbledore. I don't think Dumbledore's use of Voldemort's first name was strategic at all. At least, not strategic specifically for this instance. It was simply habit. Dumbledore addresses everyone by first name...his students, his teachers, the Minister of Magic...a first name is used regardless of the addressee's age/job/position. Is this habit purposeful? Of course. In my opinion, this is Dumbledore's way of eliminating all societal labels. He considers everyone to be equal (both to himself and each other), and he refuses to use any title that may imply otherwise, whether it is a falsely applied title and pseudonym (Lord Voldemort) or a properly earned title (Minister of Magic, arguments against Fudge's ability notwithstanding). -Corinth From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Oct 1 18:40:16 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:40:16 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > > Check out Fudge's dodgey manner when he's telling Harry how it's > best for him to stay at the Leaky Cauldron, "`Don't want to lose you > again, do we?' said Fudge with a hearty laugh. `No, no . . .best we > know where you are . . .I mean . . .'" (PoA 46) > Kneasy: "...lose you again..." What an interesting phrase. When was the last time they lost him? When he got on the Knight Bus perhaps, with no idea where he was heading? We know DD has been keeping an eye on Harry, so apparently has Fudge. Was it two watchers or a combined operation? I don't see DD sharing resources and secrets with Fudge, he wouldn't trust him. Relevant information, yes; but more than that I doubt. Who did the watching for Fudge? In the Sirius Reservations post (79808) I pointed out that in his rambling tale of his escape, Sirius never claims to have zipped south to see Harry; but this has been a 'given' among posters. What if it wasn't Sirius after all, but a watcher for Fudge? Talisman: > We know now it really can't be because he's so worried about Harry. > He's worried about keeping track of his bait. Kneasy: Hmm. Can't have the boy hanging around Privet Drive, can we? DD has that place sewn up. Much better to get him back to Hogwarts, no matter if he has been practicing under-age magic. > Talisman: A lot of people know he's innocent: LV, Wormtail, Fudge, > Malfoy, Dumbledore, Snape, Lupin, probably the Longbottoms, etc. Kneasy: I have some doubts about who knew what when. But the likiest scenario for the PoA plot is on a "need to know' basis. Fudge does as he's told; where the orders come from is problematical. Snape needs to know very little. He's got a grudge. Just wind him up. Lupin would need to know more, but not too much. Voldy is out of it; in deepest Albania licking his wounds. Add Dumbledore. Stir the mix. There is a distinct division in the personel listed: Fudge and Snape pair up, so do DD and Lupin. Although the totality of the action suits all of them, at least until the finale, it is not inconceivable that their motives differ. F&S don't want Sirius around anymore, D&L do; he has a function, at least for now. F& probably S aren't too fond of Harry, D&L see a need for him. Talisman: > You don't think it was a coincidence that he showed up to teach DADA > this particular year, do you? No, he was a planned part of the > Sirius comeback tour. > Kneasy: It's not a coincidence. What experience does Lupin have of DADA posts? Any? While the previous two were well-qualified square pegs, Lupin is an unqualified, snug fitting round peg in a round hole. The right man, in the right place, at the right time. Remus himself may be bait DD sets for Sirius. If Sirius gets to know that he is at Hogwarts, he is quite likely to try and contact him. Old friends week in the Shrieking Shack. That something was going on, I have few doubts about. What we don't know is - did it work as intended? I have a feeling it didn't. The Law of Unintended Consequences - again. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 1 18:57:47 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:57:47 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82018 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says I subscribe to this theory. I've been a little tired of Voldemort since I discovered he's been striking fear into the hearts of wizards everywhere with an anagram. That's *so* twelve-years-old! That, and the fact that he gets his butt handed to him on an annual basis by schoolkids. Also, why isn't his name Thomas? What kind of name is Marvolo? Could his wizard blood be Gypsy? Our boy has too many issues, he's vulnerable. I've decided that it's Lucius Malfoy who's the real villain. Crazy Tom is just a figurehead and a diversionary tactic. --JDR From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Oct 1 19:12:37 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:12:37 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82019 Jen wrote: > In the discussions on Ancient Magic, I think a distinction > needs to be made between Ancient Magic and Dark Magic because they > seem to be two different things in canon. I agree with you that Ancient Magic and Dark Magic are entirely separate concepts; however, I don't agree with you assessment of Ancient Magic. For starters, "Ancient Magic" has never been presented as a specific category of magic. The term is used only, if I remember correctly, when describing Lily's sacrifice. Ancient magic is not synonymous with complex magic, nor with family-related magic. My interpretation of "ancient magic" is magic that cannot be taught. It is instead linked to feelings and emotions that go back to the beginning of time (or at least, to the time at which the human brain had evolved to the complexity needed to produce them): love, compassion, etc. Universal concepts, present in both the muggle and magical world. However, in the magical world, these emotions can at times manifest themselves tangibly (e.g. Harry's protection from Quirrelmort's touch). These tangible effects are seemingly unpredictable; note that Dumbledore is always vague when he speaks of ancient magic. >From my perspective, some of your examples are not necessarily "ancient magic". > ".....When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a > certain bond between them....This is magic at its deepest, most > impenetrable, Harry." (Dumbledore, POA, chap. 22, p. 426) This one I am most likely to believe is ancient because, like the protection presented by Lily's sacrifice, this "bond" Dumbledore describes is extremely vague, and is based on the natural feeling of obligation that would be present between a victim and rescuer, regardless of whether wither person was wizard. Also, Dumbledore does not elaborate on the effect he expects this bond to have; he simply mentions it is there. I believe he has no idea what the effect might be, but is simply making a mental note that the conditions are right for something unexpected (and helpful) to occur. > The Fidelius Charm is "An immensely complex spell ..involving the > magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The > information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret Keeper ." > (Prof. Flitwick, POA, chap. 10, p. 205) Complex, but ancient? As far as we know, this charm could be a very recent invention. Based on the fact that is is very specific, well- documented, predictable, and repeatable, I would not consider it ancient magic. > "She {Petunia} may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, > bitterly, yet she still took you, and in doing so, she sealed the > charm I placed upon you." (Dumbledore, OOTP, chap. 37, p. 836) > > "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood > dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort.....your > aunt knows this.....She knows that allowing you houseroom may well > have kept you alive for the past fifteen years." (DD, OOTP,chap. 37, > p. 836) Again, there is no indication that this charm is ancient. Nor does it necessarily require Lily's sacrifice. It is simply a charm that gives protection to a person when said person is in the home of a blood relative. Also, it is unlikely that the spell is based on emotion; Petunia shows no sign of loving Harry. -Corinth From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Wed Oct 1 19:35:17 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:35:17 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82020 On all this discussion about Dark and Ancient Magic, what I disagree is that both are being completely regarded as diferent branches of magic. There are ancient and new spells in both Dark and normal magic. Some Dark magic dates from as far as the Egiptiams, some forgoten, some found, some kept all along, some completely lost. In my view, ancient magic doesn't have to relate to emotions and/or primitive forms of spells, but in fact could mean that the tribe/comunity/country etc... who created the spell is long gone, and there are no records, but it is history passed along, but not widely known. Some others could be from the beggining of the world, and still being used and well known, but people don't know the origin for sure. Dark magic is ancient magic, but not all ancient magic is dark magic. And in both there are new spells. Hopefully not confusing. Nineve. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Oct 1 20:19:15 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:19:15 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82021 Nineve wrote: > There are ancient and new spells in both Dark and normal magic. Okay, this I agree with. > Some Dark magic dates from as far as the Egiptiams, some forgoten, > some found, some kept all along, some completely lost. > In my view, ancient magic doesn't have to relate to emotions and/or > primitive forms of spells, but in fact could mean that the > tribe/comunity/country etc... who created the spell is long gone, and > there are no records, but it is history passed along, but not widely > known. Some others could be from the beggining of the world, and > still being used and well known, but people don't know the origin for > sure. I think our difference in opinion here arises from the use of the term "ancient". I was using it to describe a particular kind of magic, the vague sort that Dumbledore refers to with the specific words "ancient magic" (namely, the protection Harry recieves against Quirrelmort and arguabley Pettigrew's life-debt to Harry). The fact that this magic is indeed ancient is simply one of its characteristics (although the other characteristics are purely hypothesis). Whereas you are looking at it in terms of the practical definition of the word, i.e. any magic that is very old. Am I correct? I agree that there are probably countless spells whose origins have been forgotten, but I don't think all these spells are the same brand of magic that Dubledore was referring to. > Dark magic is ancient magic, but not all ancient magic is dark magic. Why must Dark Magic be ancient? The morsmordre incantation is probably a recent Voldemort creation, yet I would classify it as Dark magic. I agree that not allancient magic is Dark. As a matter of fact, the only magic referred to in these terms in canon is deciseively un-Dark. > And in both there are new spells. Officially confused. :) Are you saying that ancient magic isn't necessarily ancient? I thought that was the only thing we knew for certain. -Corinth From rose at swicegood.com Wed Oct 1 17:36:54 2003 From: rose at swicegood.com (roseswicegood) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 17:36:54 -0000 Subject: Slytherin and Sirius Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82022 OK--don't take the wands out--if this has been done, my only excuse is I checked the FAQs and OotP FAQ too, before I posted, so here goes. I guess I don't get it. It seems logical that Wormtail and Snape were Slytherin, and James, Griffyndor. What about Sirius? He was thrown out of his home at sixteen, but why? Because he was put in Griffyndor? It's a strange combination: James, Sirius and Peter. I'd appreciate your comments. Rose Swicegood From lisaeckleycocchiarale at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 16:42:22 2003 From: lisaeckleycocchiarale at yahoo.com (Lisa Cocchiarale) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:42:22 -0000 Subject: Petunia's protection of Harry (aside to Ancient Magic vs Dark Magic) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82023 Jen Reese cited: "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort.....your aunt knows this.....She knows that allowing you houseroom may well have kept you alive for the past fifteen years." (DD, OOTP,chap. 37, p. 836) I must ask (although it may have been addressed elsewhere-I am a newbie here) why LV doesn't just kill Petunia. If the blood of Harry's mother no longer "dwells" at Privet Drive, wouldn't the ancient magic be negated in this case? -Lisa From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 20:43:53 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:43:53 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle (was: Voldemort's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82024 "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > > > Re Dumbledore calling him "Tom". I often have contact with old > > pupils; some folk I taught are now into their fifties. I still tend > > to address them by their first names. It's what I was used to doing > > in years past. > > > > Is Dumbledore more likely to want to make LV feel small or to try > to > > reach something reachable? I shall duck, don a tin hat, duck behind > > the battlements and wait for the theories to fly over me. > > > Jen: > > I viewed the scene where Dumbledore calls Voldemort 'Tom' as being a > very tactical, but not vindictive, move on Dumbledore's part. > > We know from the graveyard scene in GOF that Voldemort was "willing > to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my > sights lower....I would settle for my old body back again, and my old > strength." (GOF, US, chap. 33, p. 656). > > Dumbledore knows Voldemort is "back in his old body again" as well, > when Harry relates the events of the Graveyard scene. > > So in this interaction, I believe Dumbledore is working on two > levels: 1) To remind Voldemort he is no longer immortal, and that > Dumbledore knows this and 2) to appeal to any tiny *sliver* of > humanity that may exist in that "old body" i.e. some echo of a memory > of Tom Riddle. My turn: I have to disagree on the *sliver* of humanity that may exist in the old Tom Riddle. This is the boy who unleashed the Basilisk from the Chamber of Secrets, framed Hagrid for it, knows he's responsible for killing a girl, and murders his father and grandparents. I have to say the DD calls Voldemort Tom because he knows who he was/is. And I think there are very few Dark wizards who know this information. In the DE's, this includes Lucius and Peter. Most of them don't have a clue that they follow a halfblood. Marci From InfiniteWhispers at Aol.com Wed Oct 1 13:59:39 2003 From: InfiniteWhispers at Aol.com (InfiniteWhispers at Aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:59:39 EDT Subject: A Petrified Ghost? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82025 Hi everyone. I mostly lurk, but I have a question today. I searched the archive and found nothing, so forgive me if this has been discussed. In COS, Sir Nicholas is one of the ones who is petrified. The others drink the mandrake potion (I'm assuming you have to drink it b/c Hagrid talks about "stewing" the mandrakes) and then they're okay again... but Sir Nicholas is a ghost. He can't drink anything. How is it that he is able to be un-petrified? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dcyasser at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 20:47:41 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:47:41 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs DD, rounds 1 & 2 (Was: Voldemort's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82026 Kagome Shikon Seeker wrote: it's unlikely that DD and LV have had > >direct face-to-face contact in the past (or probably one of them would be dead now) And Mina-Clare wrote: If I may also pose a theory that you might find interesting: As a > young Dark Lord, Tom Riddle/Voldemort decides to face off against > Dumbledore. If Dumbledore were really as powerful as he is made outto be, I don't think arrogant young Voldie would let this opportunity go by. Tom/Voldie fights Dumbledore and *loses*. Dumbledore, being magnanimous as he is, lets him go with a warning. This would give Voldemort reason to fear Dumbledore and would help explain why Dumbledore fights so tirelessly to defeat Voldemort-- he feels guilty. Now dc: I like the speculation on why LV fears DD; as a former teacher, as defeater of Grindelwald, or from first-hand battle experience? I think that they must have clashed at some point during LV's first "reign", whether directly or indirectly (via tactics or maneuvering), because Tom/LV is too arrogant to be afraid of DD's reputation without testing him. Mina-Clare's theory in this direction is indeed fun to consider, with upstart Tom put in his place by powerful DD. Wouldn't that add fuel to LV's vengeful fire, as if he needs it? Moving on from speculation, there is one confrontation between the two that must have taken place, yet we know almost no details: when DD rescued Harry in the PS/SS. LV was cohabitating with Quirrell, Quirrell was trying to kill Harry and get the stone, Harry was hanging on, literally, for dear life. "...he could only hear Quirrell's terrible shrieks and Voldemort's yells of, "KILL HIM! KILL HIM!" and other voices, maybe in Harry's own head, crying, "Harry! Harry!" He felt Quirrell's arm wrenched from his grasp, knew all was lost, and fell into blackness..." (SS US p.295) I always figured the voice calling Harry was DD, altho I confess JK does say voices, and Harry does tend to hear voices in his head. However, we know it is DD who pulls Quirrell off of Harry, and this is happening while Voldemort is still there, because Harry hears him yelling. So DD and LV were in the same room. What happened? Did LV take to his formless heels, giving up the fight as soon as DD showed up? After so many years of barely existing, and then being soooo desperately close to the stone, (and to ridding himself of Harry) I would doubt it. Did DD have to use his wand on Quirrell after he pulled him off Harry, or was Quirrell toast by then? Did DD face down spirit-form LV? Did they have words, at least, if there was no corporeal LV? DD says only that he pulled Quirrell off Harry (note the physical description of pulling, not magic) and that Quirrell died when LV left him. In his big ol' graveyard speech, LV himself says little more about the incident, only that he was thwarted by Harry Potter (no mention of DD) and that he was left "as weak as ever I had been." C'mon, no taunting? No threats? No "I'll be back?" Anyone care to contribute a blow-by-blow account of LV vs DD? - dc From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 21:14:50 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 21:14:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82027 > > Laura: > > > > But wouldn't Tom's time at Hogwarts have been after the Grindelwald incident in 1945? It was 50 years before CoS, which was late 90's, right? > > Geoff: > Yhis has been mentioned before on the group and I have just confirmed > it via the Lexicon. > > Harry's DoB is 31/07/80, so he came to Hogwarts in 1991 and the COS > incident was in 1992. Theefore, the previous opening - which also > involved Tom Riddle - was 1942. Laura: Um...having demonstrated both my superb math skills and my equally superb research skills...I'll turn the question around and ask: So do you think that there's a relationship between the Grindelwald business and young Mr Riddle? If Tom was 16 in 1942 he would have been a 6th year, right? Which means he would have graduated in time to join the Grindelwald forces before their defeat-I know, I'm attempting math again, so tell me if I'm screwed up here. Maybe Tom apprenticed with Grindelwald. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 21:19:24 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 21:19:24 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82028 replying to 82017, all snipped. Kneasy quotes Talisman re Lupin: "You don't think it was a coincidence that he showed up to teach DADA this particular year, do you? No, he was a planned part of the Sirius comeback tour." Kneasy replies: "It's not a coincidence. What experience does Lupin have of DADA posts? Any? ...The right man, in the right place, at the right time. Remus himself may be bait DD sets for Sirius. If Sirius gets to know that he is at Hogwarts, he is quite likely to try and contact him. Old friends week in the Shrieking Shack." hg: I think it's notable that Lupin's bag is old and worn, with "Prof. R. J. Lupin" embossed in gold. The lettering is old too, sorry I don't have the book on hand to quote, but I read that over and over to make sure I read it right. It indicates to me that he's taught before, somewhere, so it's possible that he's got years of experience teaching DADA, and he certainly seems up to the job. Another explanation for the bag, however, could be that his father or grandfather had the same initials and had been a professor. I do agree that Lupin was assigned the DADA post specifically as a result of Sirius' escape. But Dumbledore's motive isn't of necessity wicked in that assignment. It could just as likely be that, since Lupin knows Sirius better than any living wizard or witch, he could be affording Harry added protection until Sirius was caught. hg. From oppen at mycns.net Wed Oct 1 19:27:23 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:27:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's name References: Message-ID: <00e701c38852$0ce5fa00$06560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 82029 > << think you can take me, Junior?"...">>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > I subscribe to this theory. I've been a little tired of Voldemort > since I discovered he's been striking fear into the hearts of wizards > everywhere with an anagram. That's *so* twelve-years-old! That, and > the fact that he gets his butt handed to him on an annual basis by > schoolkids. > Also, why isn't his name Thomas? What kind of name is Marvolo? Could > his wizard blood be Gypsy? Our boy has too many issues, he's > vulnerable. > I've decided that it's Lucius Malfoy who's the real villain. Crazy > Tom is just a figurehead and a diversionary tactic. > > --JDR I've had a theory for some time now that Lord V. is actually a front-man for someone else. A lot of his behavior just doesn't make much sense. If his goal is immortality, wouldn't it be smarter/better/less hassle to just replicate Nicholas Flamel's work and make his _own_ Philosopher's Stone? Instead, he wastes endless energy persecuting people whose ancestry he doesn't approve of (got some issues, don't we, Tommy?) and stirring up perfectly avoidable trouble. If, OTOH, his goal is to Rule The Wizard World, again, his actions don't make sense. He lashes out in ways that anybody above about the age of five would be able to tell him will make enemies spring out of the woodwork, devoted to hunting him down. If his goal's revenge, why not specifically target the people who actually hurt him? While I don't _approve of_ his killing his Muggle relatives, if his story's the truth (and he apparently does believe it) his actions make a good deal of sense...I mean, even the _Dursleys_ treated Harry better than the Riddles did little Tom! Orphanages had and have a sinister reputation---how much of it is deserved or was at that time I don't know, but if he happened into a really bad one, he could have come out so badly twisted inside that even _without_ magic, he'd be out for a lifetime of revenge. A lot of serial killers' childhoods make the worst things found in Dickens' novels look like a long vacation at Disneyland. He could have a shadowy sponsor, someone who is ostensibly the picture of pureblood respectability, who gave him the contacts he needed to start or take over the Death Eaters (I rather like the idea of the organization we know as "Death Eaters" having started out as a relatively-innocuous wizards' organization, only to be taken over by Lord V.) and provided him with the catchwords he needed to make sure his suck...er, his _followers_ would follow him blindly. The sponsor's goals could be either power (I will _Rule The Wizard World,_ bwahahaha!) or pureblood supremacy (Down with the filthy Mudbloods and half-breeds---and if I can use this filthy halfbreed to take out the others, only to take _him_ out when the time's ripe, well, that makes the joke even funnier, bwahahah!). If Lord V. had taken over a group dedicated to, say, breaking the purebloods' control of the magical world, a lot of his behavior wouldmake more sense, IMNSHO. As things stand, there's a lot we still don't know about the guy, and from my POV he's a few ingredients short of a Potion recipe in his goals, his behavior and his actions. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 1 21:25:39 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 21:25:39 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > > > Harry's DoB is 31/07/80, so he came to Hogwarts in 1991 and the COS > > incident was in 1992. Theefore, the previous opening - which also > > involved Tom Riddle - was 1942. > > Laura: > > Um...having demonstrated both my superb math skills and my equally > superb research skills...I'll turn the question around and ask: > > So do you think that there's a relationship between the Grindelwald > business and young Mr Riddle? If Tom was 16 in 1942 he would have > been a 6th year, right? Which means he would have graduated in time > to join the Grindelwald forces before their defeat-I know, I'm > attempting math again, so tell me if I'm screwed up here. > > Maybe Tom apprenticed with Grindelwald. Geoff: Don't think its Maths skills at all - you homed in on the wrong year. Re Grindelwald, there has been discussion on a relarionship between him and LV recently. I didn't follow it but a search on maybe "Grindelwald" might turn something up. From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 21:35:40 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 21:35:40 -0000 Subject: Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote:> see #81932 Talisman, pulling some silvery strands from her head (Hair or thoughts? Only her hairdresser knows for sure) and putting them into the rune-carved pensive, responds: Sorry for the length. I decided that what was left of the original "discusion" had to stay in place or it would be too difficult to follow and would be more likely to lead to redundant questioning, therefore snipping is minimal. Still, the entire first agrument isn't here and can be found at #81908. Previously Talisman wrote: Dumbledore tells us that it was he (not Lily) who made the "decision" that Harry would be protected by a certain "ancient magic" likely to slide under LV's radar.(OoP 835) We see that it is not simply Lily's death that gives Harry what little protection he gets (partial days six weeks a year?) from this "ancient magic." It is the "charm" Dumbledore placed on Harry (OoP 836) A lovely little charm that just happens to require ingredients like Lily's blood and Petunia's home. Stir it around in a pot and Dumbledore says you've got "the strongest shield charm *I* [hear Dumbledore claiming credit?] could give you." (OoP 836 my emphasis) Annemehr, intrigued, responded: All right, first of all we have two things going here. The first is whatever saved Harry's life when Voldemort attacked him, and the second (which follows directly from it to be sure) is Harry's protection at number 4, Privet Drive. Now Talisman writes: Well, we have one death with multiple effects: 1)skin protection-- negated in GoF; 2) "gleaming" ingredient for LV's new bod--achieved in GoF; and 3) part of the runic charm that saved Harry, 4) part of the Privet Drive protection (which I believe is the same runic charm). Annemehr : The text would seem to imply that, finding (or *putting*) himself in charge of a boy who was saved by his mother's death, Dumbledore used a certain charm to take advantage of this situation and the fact that the boy's mother has a sister. Now Talisman writes: And that's fine, except if you think JKR pointed us to the rune (which just happens to mean defense, and just happens to look a lot like a lightning-bolt) for a reason, and in the same book where DD reveals that he placed a shield-charm on Harry that required Lily's blood and Petunia's house. The Runic wound occurred as the curse was deflected. That means it was in place before the attack and that implies premeditation, etc. Annemehr : You, however, state straight out that Dumbledore is responsible for both the protection by Lily and the protection by Petunia. Now Talisman writes: But of course it is DD who tells us that the reason Petunia's house is necessary to the charm is Petunia's blood link to the sacrificed Lily whose blood empowers the charm, so that's pretty straightforward. I don't understand where you think I'm adding anything. Annemehr: To go a bit further, I would say that your use of quotation marks above implies that I should type "protection" in quotes also. Now Talisman writes: Well, I'm not sure what you see in my use of quotation marks, which are only meant to accent the operative, canonical, terms like "charm" and "ancient magic," but if you inferred that I think the blood-pact explanation for Harry's years of abuse is hooey, you are quite right. I do owe you that TBAY, and I will get it out. I know, I've said it before, but I really want to and I will find the time, somehow. Soon. Then Talisman continued: > By the way, we know Lily's "sacrifice" didn't leave a physical mark on Harry. (SS 299) I suggest to you that the scar on Harry's head is indeed the defensive rune "eihwaz," (OoP 715) and a consequence of Dumbledore's charm. This, of course, implies pre- meditation and orchestration. (Wouldn't do to have LV come knocking when Lily was upstairs taking a nap and Harry was bouncing on his Daddy's knee in the living room.) Ah, shades of Sirius Black. Annemehr: I'm reading from you an assertion that all this was very closely choreographed by Dumbledore. I have liked the theory that Harry's scar is indeed the rune ever since I first saw it posted. However, when I'm playing a strategic game (all right, Pokemon card game, don't ask), I like to lay a lot of defenses as well as planning an offensive strategy. How can you defend going further than saying that Dumbledore was using the rune as one of a range of defensive moves for Harry? Now Talisman writes: Well, your Pokemon tactics notwithstanding, I don't think we see a lot of superfluous movement from DD. If you can point me to a pattern of contingency plans, I'd love to consider them. The only one I can think of right now is his vetting of the Neville/Harry question. But of course the prophecy question is another topic altogether and we'd better stay on course until we are through with this one. Annemehr: And why couldn't it be James who died for Harry if that was how the situation played out? Then you'd only need Harry in the presence of either one of his parents at all times, a practice Lily and James are likely to adhere to in any case, with their son so threatened. There is no problem in suggesting one of them [the parents] would need to die defending Harry, either, if it came down to that. Why can't this be all DD did, rather than arranging the deaths of James and Lily in a certain way? Now Talisman writes: My dear Annemehr. You know James was going to be killed anyway. His death was certain and therefore not the "sacrifice" that Lily's was. See e.g. SS 249, 298 and GoF 635. Both DD and LV repeat that it is Lily's willing and unnecessary death that is key to the "old magic," in all its applications. Moreover, DD's shield charm requires the home of a family member who shares the blood of the sacrificed one. James has no other living blood relatives, so even if his death could qualify for a sacrifice (which I deny, no offense to James) there would be no safe home created. 1)DD invoked the runic charm before the attack--that's why its effect was seen as a consequence to the attack. If the charm is to work: 2) Lily has to die, there is no other candidate; 3) Lily can't die fighting LV in any other context than willingly throwing herself in front of Harry; 4) Harry can't be allowed to be attacked if Lily isn't in front of him; 5) If you've come this far, you can't believe DD's going to leave it all to chance. Annemehr : [Aside: If DD *is* choreographing things, he could have brought Pettigrew to Voldemort's attention through his spy, Snape, and I've no doubt he could have planted the "Pettigrew as unlikely secret- keeper" seed with Sirius, too -- but that's not any proof.] Now Talisman writes: Pettigrew had been LV's spy for over a year. (PoA 374) The Godric's Hollow attack occurred "barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed [on Sirius]," (PoA 205), therefore likely only days after the "switch" to Pettigrew. Pettigrew ran straight to his master. Everyone knew there was a spy in the Order (e.g. PoA 375) I do not believe Pettigrew could have fooled DD for a year. Whether DD planted the switch-seed (outright or through another), or whether he relied on Spy!Wormtail's desire to serve the Dark Lord plus the I'm- so-clever / reckless attitude Sirius exhibited in his youth and the Mauraders's comradery, isn't yet clear. I'm sure if he didn't achieve it one way he would achieve it another. Annemehr : Now, if this "protection at Privet Drive" business was so wonderful, you could argue that DD hoped to be able to deploy it, but as far as we can tell from OoP, Harry needs to be in the house to take advantage of it. You yourself, in your second paragraph above, imply this "protection" is not all it's claimed to be. Now Talisman writes: I know, I need to get that D.O.L.L.A.R. Tbay post out. But "how wonderful" (or not) the protection is, is a secondary question. Annemehr: On the other hand, this certainly doesn't seem to be Voldemort's understanding. He certainly seems to know about the protection (but how?) and believe in it, but he seems to think it applies to the entire neighborhood; or else he's just scared of DD's guards and is embarrassed to admit it. Why wouldn't he try an alleyway attack as Delores Umbridge did? Did Dumbledore manage to feed him some (mis) information somehow? Now Talisman writes: Supposedly LV's been too weak until his re-bodification in GoF.(Gof 657) After the fiasco in the graveyard, he wants the Prophecy (worthless as it is) in hopes of figuring out why he keeps losing to this kid. He also doesn't want to show his hand openly, ergo the whole "get Harry to get the orb" scenario for OoP. Then Talisman wrote: > Moreover, that's not the only "ancient magic" that uses a parental soup base. Recall that "old piece of Dark Magic" (GoF 656) that required some "Bone of the father....Flesh of the Servant... and Blood of the Enemy?" (GoF 641-42) Odd fabric of creation, that. Annemehr : I'm not sure this applies to anything else, but the spell is very fortunately constructed for Voldemort. Three people are required -- Father, Servant, and Enemy. Now Talisman writes: Nonetheless, JKR is careful to differentiate between spells of LV's "own invention" (GoF 656) and old magic that is knowable and that's use is therefore foreseeable. Annemehr: Pick a servant, any servant: no problem. Now Talisman writes: Can't agree with that. Vapormort was rather short on servants as he languished in Albania. Especially ones DD would send him because they have a blood debt to Harry Potter. Then there's Wormtail's lovely proclivity for amputation. Annemehr: Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy ingredient. Now Talisman writes: Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too. (GoF 8-9; 656) But LV (and DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it took his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a plan which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated. Annemehr: But then he needs one very particular person: his father. Imagine if a bit of soft tissue had been required ("EAR of the Father?" Voldemort screeched. "How am I supposed to get EAR of the Father NOW?") Shades of William "Bootstraps" Turner, there. Now Talisman writes: Riddle killed his father the summer after he graduated from Hogwarts (in CoS MemoryMort was 16+ 50, and had already been in school for 5 years, he would have been 17 + 50 in PoA, and killed his family the following summer-- Fifty years prior to the start of GoF-- on the evening before the "fine summer`s morning" when the bodies were discovered, GoF 1-2) A sort of graduation gift, you might say. He had been planning his LV role for some years by that time, and may already have known he'd never need more than Daddy's bones. Otherwise he would have canned something. If not, DD would have made another way to effect the plan. Then Talisman wrote: (He had already insured that LV got his limb-chopping servant back, and soon fixed it so he got Harry's (gleam) blood, as well.) Annemehr: See, I can see the possibility here. I can certainly see how DD can be aware of these possibilities ahead of time and make plans accordingly, but I don't yet see that DD *alone* chose and brought about this one *particular* course of events. Wouldn't sending Harry to the graveyard be too much of a risk? How did he not nearly lose him right there? Now Talisman writes: I think there was as much protection at the graveyard as DD has had in place any of the times he has pitted Harry against LV. 1) I don't think LV is referring to Snape as the one "has left me forever," I do think it highly likely that Snape is there, under a hood; 2) No one, not even DD, has said that _Priori Incantatum_ was responsible for : a) H and LV rising into the air and gliding over to a place free of graves (GoF 663); b) Phoenix song that gives H hope and strength; c) the "thousand" beam dome-web/light-cage that separates H/LV from the DE's (663-64); d) the voice, " almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear" that advises H (664); e) and, it's one thing to see a victim regurgitated, but what was with all the advice from the shadow/echos? Lily knew about the portkey? James saying "when" to go? When Sirius asks, and DD explains the "effect," he only speaks of the connection/spell regurgitation (GoF 697). If you think everything is explained by the effect, you are assuming more than I do. Annemehr: Would a ressurection potion merely containing flesh of a servant indebted to Harry have been enough for DD's needs, assuming the blood came from some other enemy (who would then have been murdered, to be sure -- only Harry had any real chance of coming back)? Now Talisman writes: huh? Nope. Gleam. Annemehr : One last question. In GoF, ch. 36, when Harry is telling everything that happened in the graveyard to DD and Sirius, we read : "The wands connected?" [Sirius] said, looking from Harry to Dumbledore. "Why?" Harry looked up at Dumbledore again, on whose face there was an arrested look. "*Priori incantatem,*" he muttered. Dumbledore appears to have forgotten all about priori incantatem until that moment (reminds you of phoenix tears, doesn't it?). Doesn`t that seem very unlikely for one who knew that each wand contained one of Fawkes' feathers? But if he had indeed forgotten, wouldn't that suggest that Harry's trip to the graveyard was *not* planned by Dumbledore? 1) I don't think "arrested" means surprised. Recall that we've just seen DD recover from his momentary "gleam." My dictionaries suggest such synonyms as "checked" or "restrained movement." Ditto the Rogets (well, Rogets points out that arrested can mean "mentally deficient" in some cases, but I don't think you want me to go that far to absolve DD, do you?). I think an arrested face is a restrained face, a face where expression has been checked or controlled. It is a poker face. DD shoots H a knowing look and when Sirius asks if Priori Incantatum means the "reverse spell effect," DD says "Exactly." He doesn't say "Great Merlin's Beard, that must be it!" Annemehr : Anyway, I believe DD is up to something. I know we've been told only a fraction of the truth. But, I'll need a lot of persuading if I'm going to believe he's orchestrated *everything* since he heard that danged prophecy! Now Talisman writes: My dear, Harry (and Neville) were added to the plan when the first prophecy came out. The plan is much older than that. Annemehr: In other words, I'm sailing along with you for *now*, but may end up kicking and screaming by the end, and still wondering just where the truth lies. Now Talisman writes: A little kicking and screaming is quite cathartic. I engage in it myself, regularly. Talisman, who owes a little something to boyd smith now, and promises it will be along shortly. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 21:44:08 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 21:44:08 -0000 Subject: Petunia's protection of Harry (aside to Ancient Magic vs Dark Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Cocchiarale" wrote: > Jen Reese cited: > > "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood > dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort.....your > aunt knows this.....She knows that allowing you houseroom may well > have kept you alive for the past fifteen years." (DD, OOTP,chap. 37, > p. 836) > > I must ask (although it may have been addressed elsewhere-I am a newbie here) why > LV doesn't just kill Petunia. If the blood of Harry's mother no longer "dwells" at Privet > Drive, wouldn't the ancient magic be negated in this case? > > -Lisa Richard here ... After the capture of those who attacked the Longbottoms, and prior to Voldemort's return, I don't see any Death Eaters taking the initiative with regard to killing Harry, or upon his tormentors ... I mean relatives. For one thing, the Ministry would likely take a very close look at any attack upon anyone at Privet Drive, given Harry's residence there. For another, if Voldemort himself still lives, would you want him agree with you for killing Harry when Voldemort himself so wants to do it himself? Or would you be willing to risk having what happened to Voldemort happen to you? The Death Eaters had much to lose and every reason to stay hidden, so I don't find their "failure" to attack Petunia overly troubling. I can't see Voldemort making such an attack prior to PS/SS, as he was still hiding and trying desperately just to survive. Up through GoF, he is hiding still, and rather short of followers until Peter's arrival following PoA, so such an attack is not very plausible, then not very practical. Only after GoF does an attack by Voldemort personally become a threat, and such an attack would certainly risk blowing his cover AND make it harder for Voldemort to get access to that prophecy he so wanted up 'til the Battle of the Ministry. However, with Book 6, such an attack becomes much more of a threat. Now, we really don't know what this "ancient magic" entails. It may be that SHEDDING Petunia's blood (by which I mean killing her) would negate that protection, but it might just as well be that her death would REINFORCE that same magic, as, intentional or not, her death would also be in defense of Harry's life ... And then there is Dudley to consider. He may not have loved Lily (never having met her), but he is still "blood." Thus, even though Voldemort is returned to some semblance of full power, and has a decent contingent of Death Eaters to do his bidding, he has the experience of a disasterously failed attack on Harry, plus a quartet of lesser unsatisfactory encounters, to teach him some caution. I can't see him launching an attack upon Privet Drive or Aunt Petunia until he thinks he has a handle on just what the protections present entail. An interesting point here is that Voldemort KNOWS about the protection at Privet Drive, and we may assume from his comment on the subject that he knows it to be effective. We might well assume, then that there was some reconnaisance of Privet Drive, and perhaps an attempt at a surreptitious attack ... perhaps by LV's little snake friend. Whatever the reason, we know that Voldemort has not pursued this avenue, and that there are good reasons for his being cautious about such an attack prior to the end of OotP. And then we get back to the fact that the Ministry and the whole of the Wizarding World know that Voldemort is back, and that he wants to kill Harry. Thus, I would expect the auxiliary defences wherever Harry is to be substantially augmented from this point forward. We may well see an attack upon Aunt Petunia, or upon Privet Drive. We have the hint that someone will show latent magical ability late in life, and that may well be Petunia. But, from the above, I don't think you should be concerned that we haven't seen such an attack heretofore. Richard, who knows opinions will vary on the point, and would like to see some other perspectives from other posters here. From pokeypokey at comcast.net Wed Oct 1 22:10:30 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:10:30 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle (was: Voldemort's name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > > "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > > > > > Re Dumbledore calling him "Tom". > > > > > > Is Dumbledore more likely to want to make LV feel small or to try > > to > > > reach something reachable? I shall duck, don a tin hat, duck > behind > > > the battlements and wait for the theories to fly over me. My immediate thought on this when I first read this scene in OotP, was, "Wow, Dumbledore is such a great guy..." I loved how he called LV "Tom", and I think that it really symbolized Dumbledore's perspective on authority. I took it as DD belittling LV, and sort of standing up to him. DD is trying to show that he is not afraid, and that LV is just a person, like everyone else. By calling him by his real name, and not by "Lord", he is denouncing the title, and speaking to him on a casual level. (We have seen that DD likes to do what he wants... he does respect authority, of course, but he also stands up to it when he thinks something is wrong.) So in this situation, DD is ripping up LV's authority, and dumping it on the ground. I'd also like to make a random note about how respectful DD is. He is so deferential, always replying politely and in everyone's best interest. He never (not that we have seen anyway) blown up and screamed at anyone. The only way we've seen him express anger is through Harry's description of the power DD gives off when he's mad. "a sense of power radiated from Dumbledore as though he were giving off burning heat." (P. 679, Ch. 35, GoF). This shows why he is probably a sufficient occlumens; he is able to control his emotions very very well. Any comments on this? -angelberri56, who thinks Dumbledore might start becoming her favorite character, besides Harry of course.... : >) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 1 22:14:50 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:14:50 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: Ancient magic is not synonymous > with complex magic, nor with family-related magic. My interpretation > of "ancient magic" is magic that cannot be taught. It is instead > linked to feelings and emotions that go back to the beginning of time > (or at least, to the time at which the human brain had evolved to the > complexity needed to produce them): love, compassion, etc. Universal > concepts, present in both the muggle and magical world. Jen: You're right that we don't have much to go on in canon to define ancient magic. And I don't think it has to be a *branch* of magic as much as it is a *level* of magic. I feel when Dumbledore talks about ancient magic, he's not referring to "old" as much as he is to "deep" magic. We see many everyday spells that consist of one person casting a spell directed at an object or a person, and we see a specific result (or not). But then we're presented with a few, a very few, examples of magic that create a *bond* between two people. It's a much deeper form of magic than two people casting spells at each other. The life debt and blood sacrifice are two such examples. You disagreed that the secret keeper is ancient, but I included it because it forms a bond between two people that could require a life sacrifice on the part of the keeper. So that would be a deeper form of magic, while maybe not necessarily *old*. Corinthum: > > "She {Petunia} may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, > unwillingly, > > bitterly, yet she still took you, and in doing so, she sealed the > > charm I placed upon you." (Dumbledore, OOTP, chap. 37, p. 836) > > > > "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood > > dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort.....your > > aunt knows this.....She knows that allowing you houseroom may well > > have kept you alive for the past fifteen years." (DD, OOTP,chap. > 37, p. 836) > > Again, there is no indication that this charm is ancient. Nor does > it necessarily require Lily's sacrifice. It is simply a charm that > gives protection to a person when said person is in the home of a > blood relative. Also, it is unlikely that the spell is based on > emotion; Petunia shows no sign of loving Harry. Jen: In OOTP, Dumbledore explains that the blood sacrifice Lily made is only activated when Harry "calls home the place where your mother's blood dwells." So Lily's sacrifice would be meaningless if Petunia didn't allow Harry to dwell in her home. Petunia's choice completes the circle of magic begun when Lily died. From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Wed Oct 1 22:23:31 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:23:31 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > replying to 82017, all snipped. > > > I do agree that Lupin was assigned the DADA post specifically as a > result of Sirius' escape. But Dumbledore's motive isn't of necessity > wicked in that assignment. It could just as likely be that, since > Lupin knows Sirius better than any living wizard or witch, he could > be affording Harry added protection until Sirius was caught. > hg. Please do not assign "wickedness" to what Dumbledore is doing. His plan is complicated beyond what we can imagine and it is filled with very difficult things he must do, not wicked things. After all, he's out there saving the Wizarding World. Jennifer From octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com Wed Oct 1 22:37:26 2003 From: octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com (belsum) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:37:26 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Black, Sirius a traitor, flint? (was Re: A Number of Questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82036 > KathyK, this time around: > > But now I'm thinking that it still fits. Mrs. Black blasted Sirius > off the tree for leaving. At first, the Blacks thought Voldemort > and his beliefs were just dandy. Then they saw what Voldemort was > really about. They even lost their loyal child, Regulus, to > Voldemort. So even if Mrs. Black believed Sirius was the big bad > Death Eater the rest of the world thought he was, she may not have > put him back on the family tree because he supported a crazed mass > murderer who may hold the same sort of world views, but who took it > too far and even murdered the good Black son, Regulus. > belsum: I must have missed something. Can someone tell me about Regulus? Is he mentioned in canon or is he part of a theory? (Wouldn't Remus' brother's name *have* to be Romulus?) I totally space out important names sometimes so I'm sure I just wasn't paying enough attention. Thanks! From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 22:49:18 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:49:18 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82037 hg wrote (snip) "I do agree that Lupin was assigned the DADA post specifically as a result of Sirius' escape. But Dumbledore's motive isn't of necessity wicked in that assignment. It could just as likely be that, since Lupin knows Sirius better than any living wizard or witch, he could be affording Harry added protection until Sirius was caught. hg." Jennifer (susanbones) replied: "Please do not assign "wickedness" to what Dumbledore is doing. His plan is complicated beyond what we can imagine and it is filled with very difficult things he must do, not wicked things. After all, he's out there saving the Wizarding World. Jennifer" hg replies: I hope you didn't interpret what I wrote as implying Dumbledore was doing anything wicked. Quite the contrary -- I was politely pointing out to Kneasy that if Dumbledore did have a Sirius-based motive for hiring Lupin when he did, it doesn't necessarily follow that it was a wicked motive; but rather, his motive could have been to protect Harry even more. hg. From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Oct 1 22:51:54 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:51:54 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82038 Talisman: > > Check out Fudge's dodgey manner when he's telling Harry how it's > > best for him to stay at the Leaky Cauldron, "`Don't want to lose you > > again, do we?' said Fudge with a hearty laugh. `No, no . . .best we > > know where you are . . .I mean . . .'" (PoA 46) > > > Kneasy: > "...lose you again..." What an interesting phrase. When was the last > time they lost him? When he got on the Knight Bus perhaps, with no > idea where he was heading? > > We know DD has been keeping an eye on Harry, so apparently has > Fudge. Was it two watchers or a combined operation? I don't see > DD sharing resources and secrets with Fudge, he wouldn't trust > him. Relevant information, yes; but more than that I doubt. > > Who did the watching for Fudge? > > In the Sirius Reservations post (79808) I pointed out that in his > rambling tale of his escape, Sirius never claims to have zipped > south to see Harry; but this has been a 'given' among posters. > What if it wasn't Sirius after all, but a watcher for Fudge? Oh, but Sirius does indeed claim that. He writes in the letter Harry receives on the train ride at the end of school in PoA "I would also like to apologize for the fright I think I gave you that night last year when you left your uncle's house. I had only hoped to get a glimpse of you before starting my journy north..." Now, maybe there were two large black dogs there, one Padfoot and one Mystery Fudge Informant, and Harry only saw one, but I think that's a stretch. Then the question arises about why Sirius would swim across part of the North Sea, dash south to see Harry, and go back north again. I'm not going to try to fit this into any theory. I think that JKR simply didn't think or care about this bit of geographic overload. I think she simply wanted to foreshadow Sirius' appearance, while developing the threatening presence of the Grim, and that's what she did, whether or not it makes sense when viewed with an eye towards how much traveling Sirius would have had to do. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Oct 1 23:07:01 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:07:01 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Black, Sirius a traitor, flint? (was Re: A Number of Questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82039 > belsum: > I must have missed something. Can someone tell me about Regulus? Is > he mentioned in canon or is he part of a theory? (Wouldn't Remus' > brother's name *have* to be Romulus?) > > I totally space out important names sometimes so I'm sure I just wasn't > paying enough attention. > Thanks! Regulus was Sirius' younger brother, who upheld the Black parents' cherished pure-blood ideals. He's mentioned in Sirius' and Harry's discussion of the tapestry in OoP Chap. 6. Marianne From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 23:07:30 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:07:30 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Black, Sirius a traitor, flint? (was Re: A Number of Questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82040 > belsum: > I must have missed something. Can someone tell me about Regulus? Is > he mentioned in canon or is he part of a theory? (Wouldn't Remus' > brother's name *have* to be Romulus?) > > I totally space out important names sometimes so I'm sure I just wasn't > paying enough attention. > Thanks! Regulus is Sirius's brother. As far as we know Remus does not have a brother. Diana From tuck668 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 00:01:22 2003 From: tuck668 at yahoo.com (tuck668) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 00:01:22 -0000 Subject: Slytherin and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "roseswicegood" wrote: > OK--don't take the wands out--if this has been done, my only excuse > is I checked the FAQs and OotP FAQ too, before I posted, so here > goes. > > I guess I don't get it. It seems logical that Wormtail and Snape > were Slytherin, and James, Griffyndor. What about Sirius? He was > thrown out of his home at sixteen, but why? Because he was put in > Griffyndor? It's a strange combination: James, Sirius and Peter. > > I'd appreciate your comments. > > Rose Swicegood Don't engrave this is stone or anything, but I always sort of assumed that all of the Marauders (ie James, Sirius, Peter, Remus) were in Gryffindor. Snape, obviously, was in Slytherin. Maybe I'm completely wrong. - Anna From fc26det at aol.com Thu Oct 2 00:03:22 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 00:03:22 -0000 Subject: A Petrified Ghost? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, InfiniteWhispers at A... wrote: ... but Sir Nicholas is a > ghost. He can't drink anything. How is it that he is able to be un- petrified? > > Susan: Since they were able to waft him up to the hospital wing with a fan, maybe they can put the mandrake potion in an atomizer and spray him with it? Just a guess Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 2 00:04:32 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 00:04:32 -0000 Subject: Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82043 Talisman writes: >>Pettigrew had been LV's spy for over a year. (PoA 374) The Godric's Hollow attack occurred "barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed [on Sirius]," (PoA 205), therefore likely only days after the "switch" to Pettigrew. Pettigrew ran straight to his master. > > Everyone knew there was a spy in the Order (e.g. PoA 375) I do not believe Pettigrew could have fooled DD for a year. << Maybe it was Lupin But in any case this does not take Occlumency into account. Snape tells us that a skilled Occlumens can not only block Legillimency, he can do it so that the Legillimens does not know he is being blocked. That would explain how Snape could fool Voldemort, and it also explains how a succession of Dark Wizards, from Pettigrew to Fake!Moody, could fool Dumbledore. Legillimency breeds a certain over-confidence in its practitioners, and Voldemort is not the only victim. Note that Harry, who seems to be a natural Legillimens (is *that* the significance of Lily's eyes?) thinks he can tell who the wrong sort are for himself, but is fooled by the same people who can fool Dumbledore. It would be folly for Voldemort to send anyone to spy on close friends of Dumbledore who was not a skilled Occlumens. Pettigrew knows that Dumbledore is looking for the spy. He also knows that his three friends are hiding the secret that he is an illegal animagus and was running around Hogwarts with a werewolf. I don't think Peter would have felt very safe if there was a chance that Dumbledore would discover all this in his friends' minds. So I argue that all the Marauders must have been Occlumenses, (Occlumentes?), and that they accquired this skill when they were studying to become Animagi. We've long wondered about Dumbledore's verbal arabesque, "not least keeping it from me" (quoting PoA from memory) when he talks to Harry about Sirius being an Animagus. Pip!Squeak speculates that it means that Dumbledore *did* know about the Animagi. But I think what we are hearing is Dumbledore skating around the thin ice of Occlumency; a subject he very much wanted to avoid. Guilty, indeed, but only of being overprotective. It would appear that for an Occlumens to conceal a falsehood successfully, as Snape can, he would have to be able not only to lie convincingly, but to block the memory of having lied as well. But does a Legillimens detect a lie when someone tells the truth in fact but not in essence? Evidently not. Pippin From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 00:48:11 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 00:48:11 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82044 > > Talisman: A lot of people know he's innocent: LV, Wormtail, Fudge, Malfoy, Dumbledore, Snape, Lupin, probably the Longbottoms, etc. > > Kneasy: > I have some doubts about who knew what when. But the likiest scenario > for the PoA plot is on a "need to know' basis. > Fudge does as he's told; where the orders come from is problematical. > Snape needs to know very little. He's got a grudge. Just wind him up. > Lupin would need to know more, but not too much. > Voldy is out of it; in deepest Albania licking his wounds. > Add Dumbledore. > Stir the mix. > > There is a distinct division in the personel listed: > Fudge and Snape pair up, so do DD and Lupin. > Although the totality of the action suits all of them, at least until > the finale, it is not inconceivable that their motives differ. > F&S don't want Sirius around anymore, D&L do; he has a function, > at least for now. > F& probably S aren't too fond of Harry, D&L see a need for him. > > > Talisman: > > You don't think it was a coincidence that he showed up to teach DADA this particular year, do you? No, he was a planned part of the Sirius comeback tour. > > > > Kneasy: > It's not a coincidence. What experience does Lupin have of DADA posts? Any? While the previous two were well-qualified square pegs, Lupin is an unqualified, snug fitting round peg in a round hole. The right man, in the right place, at the right time. > > Remus himself may be bait DD sets for Sirius. If Sirius gets to know that he is at Hogwarts, he is quite likely to try and contact him. Old friends week in the Shrieking Shack. > > That something was going on, I have few doubts about. > What we don't know is - did it work as intended? > > I have a feeling it didn't. The Law of Unintended Consequences - again. Laura: I don't see the point of this alleged plot. And why Remus? (1) As long as Sirius is in Azkaban, he can be no threat to Fudge. Virtually everyone in the WW thinks he's guilty (and those who know better aren't talking). When someone's in Azkaban for life, they're as good as dead. So that's the safest place for Sirius if he has information you don't want to become public. Or if you never want to see him again for personal reasons. Moreover, Fudge has no reason to believe that Sirius was planning to escape for 12 years-because he wasn't. He says that he managed to stay sane, but he doesn't say that he wanted to escape until he saw the clipping. Are you saying that DD set Fudge up to perform that little slip-Sirius-the-newspaper charade? Why? If DD wanted Sirius out, he surely could have come up with a better method (and a smarter henchman) than that. And I have to believe that Fudge would have fought DD every step of the way. He doesn't stand up to DD often, but when it comes to his job and his reputation, he'll put up quite a battle. (2) Remus as bait? Either he was in on this alleged plot or he wasn't. If he was, you're suggesting that he was willing to sell his long-held beliefs about Sirius' guilt for a job, thus putting the son of 2 of his victims (and one of your dearest friends) in mortal peril. You really don't think much of Remus, do you? If he wasn't in on the plot, why would he be effective as bait? It wasn't Remus Sirius was interested in, it was Harry. (Sorry, Remus/Sirius shippers. :-))Sirius had 2 goals when he broke out of Azkaban (which I firmly believe he did without assistance)-to protect Harry and to kill Peter. As long as Harry was at Hogwarts, no further bait would be necessary. Besides, Sirius thought that *Remus* was the spy. So he had no reason to want to find him for a jolly school reunion. And I still want to hear your explanation about the Shrieking Shack scene-do you really think Sirius, Remus, Peter and Snape cooked this up among them or among some combination of them (this would be referring back to one of Kneasy's earlier posts)? I'm calling your bluff, Kneasy and Talisman-what exactly is the nature of this plot? Who is in on it and why? Details, please- inquiring minds want to know! Laura, who thinks this whole business is beginning to sound more like John Le Carre or Graham Greene than JK Rowling-and who would have written this as a TBAY if she'd been the least bit clever From impherring13 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 01:38:57 2003 From: impherring13 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:38:57 -0000 Subject: Luna, Hagrid, Thestrals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82045 Hi, How is everyone tonight? Anyway, I've got a question about OP. In OP pg 762, when talking about the Thestrals, Luna says "Hagrid says they're very good at finding places their riders are looking for". However, on pg 438 Hagrid says "I've been keepin' a couple o' creatures saved fer yer O.W.L. year. As Luna is a fourth year, how would she know what Hagrid said about the thestrals? -SD From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 2 01:43:05 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:43:05 -0000 Subject: Slytherin and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82046 "roseswicegood" > > I guess I don't get it. It seems logical that Wormtail and Snape were Slytherin, and James, Griffyndor. What about Sirius? He was thrown out of his home at sixteen, but why? Because he was put in Griffyndor? It's a strange combination: James, Sirius and Peter.<< I subscribe to Four House theory. James was a Gryffindor, Sirius the good Slytherin, Lupin a Ravenclaw, and Peter a Hufflepuff. I was converted by the Sorting Hat's latest song, in which it says that it always tries to unite the Houses in the face of external foes. We know that Sirius's ancestor Phineas Nigellus was in Slytherin and there are snake themed adornments all over Grimmauld Place. Malfoy tells us that all his family have been in Slytherin and he is Sirius's first cousin once removed. Sirius was labelled a blood traitor long before he joined the Order. Did he get burnt off the tapestry and have to leave home because he'd switched Houses at school? Pettigrew is the poster child for misplaced loyalty. And Hufflepuff affiliation would fit with the way everyone underestimates his abilities. Lupin is the most bookish and learned of the Marauders. He also seems a bit guilty about wishing for a Gryffindor victory at Quidditch. I know it seems unlikely that they could have belonged to different houses, but they *did* have place to meet - the passage behind the mirror which is now blocked. What would they have needed it for if they were all members of the same house, and could safely discuss whatever they wanted in the privacy of their dormitory? Pippin From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Oct 2 02:06:07 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 02:06:07 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82047 Jen: > We see many everyday spells that consist of one person casting a > spell directed at an object or a person, and we see a specific result > (or not). But then we're presented with a few, a very few, examples > of magic that create a *bond* between two people. It's a much deeper > form of magic than two people casting spells at each other. I see it as the opposite: the bond comes first, and creates a magical result. In both the Lily-sacrifice case and the Harry-saves-Peter case, the creation of a magical bond was not the intention of the action, but an unplanned side effect. > The life debt and blood sacrifice are two such examples. You > disagreed that the secret keeper is ancient, but I included it > because it forms a bond between two people that could require a life > sacrifice on the part of the keeper. The charm itself doesn't require anything of the secret keeper. It would be nice if he or she didn't go blabbing to the next person he or she met, but there isn't anything stopping that. If the Secret Keeper were to give his or her life to keep the secret, that might result in a magical-bond-ancient-magic scenario. Me: > > Again, there is no indication that [the Fidelius] charm is ancient. Nor does > > it necessarily require Lily's sacrifice. It is simply a charm that > > gives protection to a person when said person is in the home of a > > blood relative. Also, it is unlikely that the spell is based on > > emotion; Petunia shows no sign of loving Harry. > Jen: > In OOTP, Dumbledore explains that the blood sacrifice Lily made is > only activated when Harry "calls home the place where your mother's > blood dwells." So Lily's sacrifice would be meaningless if Petunia > didn't allow Harry to dwell in her home. Petunia's choice completes > the circle of magic begun when Lily died. I interpreted his words differently. "'...I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood.... [Petunia] may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you.'" (OoP, US p 836) >From this, I took it to mean the mysterious charm Dumbledore used was strengthened due to Lily's sacrifice. Therefore, Dumbledore's charm would be useless (or at least less powerful) without Lily's sacrifice, but Lily's sacrifice does not rely on the charm. This is simply one way the ancient magic effects can be harnessed. -Corinth From yswahl at stis.net Thu Oct 2 02:20:14 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 02:20:14 -0000 Subject: Luna, Hagrid, Thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82048 Luna obviously knows how to ride thestrals as well (OOP pg 764 and again on 767). She might have gotten private lessons from Hagrid for some as of yet undisclosed reason. LUNA WAS ALSO NOT ON THE HOGWARTS EXPRESS at the end of OOP, and since she is such an expert rider, she may have developed her thestral riding skills using them in her travels to and from Hogwarts. (just mentioning this for the umpteenth time - it will no doubt be important in Book 6) Samnanya --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dave" wrote: > Hi, How is everyone tonight? Anyway, I've got a question about OP. > In OP pg 762, when talking about the Thestrals, Luna says "Hagrid > says they're very good at finding places their riders are looking > for". However, on pg 438 Hagrid says "I've been keepin' a couple o' > creatures saved fer yer O.W.L. year. As Luna is a fourth year, how > would she know what Hagrid said about the thestrals? > > -SD From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Oct 2 02:39:39 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 02:39:39 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82049 > Me: > > > > Again, there is no indication that [the Fidelius] charm is > ancient. Sorry, that should have been [Dumbledore's protection] charm... -Corinth From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 1 14:05:53 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:05:53 -0000 Subject: Whether or not they're children's books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kagome Shikon Seeker" wrote: > And yes, the plot gets darker in "Phoenix," a point Rowling thinks is so > obvious by now it's hardly worth mentioning. "I'm surprised that people are > surprised that the series is getting darker, because the first book started > with a murder. And although you didn't see the murder happen, that for me > was an announcement that these things would continue within the series." > But she's not blind to the fact that very young children will want to read > the books, and that they will be disturbed: "I was always ambivalent when > people told me that they'd read the first book to their 6-year-old, because > I knew what was coming. And I have to say even with the first book, that is > a scary ending." > > /QUOTE Rowling's simply wrong. Her book began with the Dursleys, not a murder. Hansel and Gretel is about two children who hear their parents decide to abandon them to starvation during a famine. The parents lead Hansel and Gretel into the forest and abandon them there. The children are subsequently captured fattened up to be eaten and they end killing a person (in self defence of course). Hansel and Gretel is a good deal more horrifying than much of HP. Snow White is almost worse. Kids love this stuff. Rowling may be ambivilant but really there is nothing there most kids can't handle. She hasn't included in PS anything so wildly different from children's stories and fairytales. She's simply wrong about it being too scary. Kids see orphans all the time in books. Many kids grow up living lives with abuse. Kids that don't are well served by understanding the the pain that others suffer when they loose loved ones and when people are abused. If it isn't gory or really violent, most kids can handle sad and scary tales. Lemony Snicket's books actually begin with the death of the character's parents. His Series of Unfortunate Events is a big hit with kids. Poor Beaudilares, nothing good happens to them. In fact, most kids enjoy being scared. Maria Tatar who annotated a book of fairy tales tells in interviews of how she agonized over including Bluebeard. She worried over it and said if it scared kids in readings she wouldn't. Instead she found kids enchanted by the story about a man who cut the heads off all his wives. They LOVED it. Bambi is far more heatbreaking and I think I saw that at 5 or perhaps younger (Though it is hard for me to imagine what a 4 year old makes of death). Rowling was skittish as any adult might be. It is nice that she worried, but there was no need. PS in comparison with Bambi's blood bath is rather happy go lucky. I know people who are reading their children Lord of the Rings and they are handeling that just fine - though the language often has to be explained or summed up. I see little ones at the LOTR movies all the time. When you see them leaving, they are delighted and full of energy and ready to fight evil or become possessed by it. Though a parent should know their own child best. Some children are particularly sensitive and that should be attended to on an individual basis. > Now, based on this statement alone - and it's direct from JKR's mouth - I'd > say that HER intent is not a "children's book". Hence any labeling of > "children's book" was done after the fact, by the marketers and publishers. > NOT by her. Use the little "up thread" and see what she has said of take this quote. Rowling - 1998 - "I think it's wrong to think of adult books as 'real literature'. Real literature can be for people of nine and that's what I'm trying to write." Meaning of course she intends to write for children of nine. (I assume the targeted age has to do with COS or PS not OOTP.) > The label is just a label. Get over it, and stop thinking of it as "adult" > or "children". The truth is, this is one of those rare books (or series) > that transcends the label, and is enjoyable by anyone, no matter their age. > Giving it a label at all is pointless, foolish, and a waste of time. My point is that this isn't rare. Children's literature is a wonderful vibrant genre that is full of talented writers and wonderful stories. Rowling isn't the only talented one. For whatever reason, her series is beyond popular. I won't try to imagine why. Some things are inexplicable. And that is a good thing. What I hope is that her success might break open the door to the store of wonderful children's literature being written. Just as I hoped when a comic won a Puliter Prize that people would begin to realize that genre does not determine quality. It takes a special writer to write for children. It takes the ability to formulate complex concepts in language that can reach those a range of reading abilities amongst those who aren't done learning how to read a novel. It has to entertain a person who might be learning something new on each page. A child's writer has to remember how it feels to be 7 or 9 or 15. That isn't easy. Not everyone does that successfully. I like labels they help you compare work and see how writers play off one another and where they are coming from and what they are doing. It is a tool that is both useful and descriptive. Labels don't have to pigeon hole if you remember that labels aren't pigeon holes. They are as flexible. A book can be a children's book, a fantasy, a mystery and a historical novel all in one. A picture book can also be a horror book. A comic can be a political dystopia tale. Labels help examine what something is and is not. For instance Dickens was not a fantasy novelist. Is that bad? No, he simply wasn't. All I am saying is that HP is not different enough or more sophisticated than other children's/YA literature. So why should it trancend that label when other work doesn't? Is it only because we as adults like it. Will all the children's books on my shelf get that treatment? That and I like the label. I think children's writers are a very special and talented breed. I was hoping Rowling might lend respect to the whole genre. Golly From luigina at eircom.net Wed Oct 1 16:27:39 2003 From: luigina at eircom.net (porpentina_75) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:27:39 -0000 Subject: International book versions & character names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > wrote: > > > I just finished the Philosopher's Stone in Russian and I noticed > > that > > > some of the names were different. > > Clio: > > >> If you look here http://www.eulenfeder.de/int/gbint.html > > you will find a nice list of HP names and places and their > > translations in many languages. Now Me: Hi All, I've read this and thought I'd post something about the issue of HP translations...This is my first post, so forgive me if it's not of interest! Italian is my mother tongue, but I have been living in Ireland for many years and I've actually read all the HP books in English in the first place. However I recently got hold of a copy of PS/SS in Italian and read it out of curiosity. I was appalled by the quality of the translation: the first problem is, predictably enough, the "free" translation of people's and places names. Even though in the Italian edition there is a foreword explicitly dealing with the way the translator worked on names, this doesn't change the fact that the choices she made are awful. From "Dumbledore", that has been interpreted as a variation of "dumb" and therefore translated "Silente" (= silent), to Oliver Wood (translated the equivalent of Oliver Stick!!!!). And this is just to make 2 simple examples. After this, there are serious mistakes in actually understanding the meaning of certain sentences that have been translated in a completely wrong way, thus compromising the faithfulness to the original and the reader's understanding of what the hell is going on! Thirdly and more generally, the nuances and details of JKR's writing have been nearly totally erased by very poor translating choices. I know that a translation is never going to be up to the original, but even I (not a translation expert in anyway!) could come up with better ways of translating certain expressions in Italian! All this rant to come to 1 or 2 questions: 1- I wonder if JKR or Bloomsbury do actually check up on available HP translations and perhaps "evaluate them" and make sure they're up to a certain standard and so on. 2- Has anybody in the group come across another bad example of HP translation? I'm thinking of collecting examples of HP translation "horrors"... Thanks and apologies for the lengthy post!!! Lui From teseddon at kpmg.ca Wed Oct 1 20:56:36 2003 From: teseddon at kpmg.ca (voldermort_is_harry) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 20:56:36 -0000 Subject: Crying Wolf? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82052 >Talisman, loving another look at PoA says: >I agree with Kneasy et al. who find Lupin's "epiphany" implausible. >There are too many dots to connect, too many alternative scenerios >and even if you guessed right, you'd want to hear it from Sirius, >rather than feed him the explanation. It smells to high heaven of >pre-arrangement. There is another, simpler explination: Before Sirius was shipped off to Azkaban, he told his story to Remus. Remus didn't believe him, for one reason or another. However, after seening Peter on the M- Map, he realizes that what Sirius had said was true. No canon, of course, but the exchange in the Shack does suggest that *some* previous communication took place. 'bin' From KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net Wed Oct 1 23:13:37 2003 From: KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net (Kagome Shikon Seeker) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:13:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia's protection of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82053 Richard says: An interesting point here is that Voldemort KNOWS about the protection at Privet Drive, and we may assume from his comment on the subject that he knows it to be effective. Kagome (me): But _is_ it effective anymore? At the end of GoF, after Harry's blood is used in the spell, LV is able to touch him, and says: QUOTE: "His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with such a protection I admit I had not foreseen.... I could not touch the boy." Voldemort raised one of his long white fingers and put it very close to Harry's cheek. "His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice.... This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it... but no matter. I can touch him now." /QUOTE The fact that he's able to touch Harry, and his indication that it negates the sacrifice of Lily, implies that it might mean the negation of Dumbledore's charm, which built on the sacrifice Lily had made. It's like removing a brick from the bottom of a stack; the rest of the stack becomes unstable, and if pushed the right way, can topple very easily. The protection Harry enjoyed up until this point is now gone, meaning that it could weaken and even eventually topple the protection he has at Privet Drive. I'm not saying it would, but the implication is there. He may no longer be protected at Privet Drive, not with the blood charm, at least. Not if it relied on the protection he had gained through Lily's sacrifice, since we know that is now gone. From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 00:09:52 2003 From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 00:09:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82054 Geoff: > > Is Dumbledore more likely to want to make LV feel small or to try > to > > reach something reachable? I shall duck, don a tin hat, duck behind > > the battlements and wait for the theories to fly over me. Jen: > So in this interaction, I believe Dumbledore is working on two > levels: 1) To remind Voldemort he is no longer immortal, and that > Dumbledore knows this and 2) to appeal to any tiny *sliver* of > humanity that may exist in that "old body" i.e. some echo of a memory > of Tom Riddle. And now Martha: A few people I have spoken to about this have commented that when they read it, they thought of the scene in "Return of the Jedi" when Luke addresses Darth Vader as "Anakin". IMO, it seems that the idea of appealing to the last remaining shred of humanity is valid in Star Wars, where the idea the Anakin Skywalker was a good man and Darth Vader is a bad man is a major part of the story. I don't think it applies so much in OoP. Here's the thing: when I consider DD calling LV "Tom", it puts me more in mind of Agent Smith in The Matrix calling Neo "Mr Anderson". IMO the point to it is the power struggle involved. In renaming himself Lord Voldemort - and renouncing his real name - Tom Riddle is seizing power for himself. Nobody makes him a Lord - he just takes the title for himself. "Voldemort" sounds scary. (If he'd called himself "Mr Bunny" I doubt he would have had half the impact as an Evil Overlord.) Over the years the power of that name increases (and I do apologise for referring to yet another non-HP-canon here, please consider that it is 1am and I should be asleep - like when Westley in "The Princess Bride" attacks another ship, introduces himself as Westley, and everyone laughs - he has to call himself The Dread Pirate Roberts to have any effect). By calling LV "Tom", then, DD is taking all his power away from him, or at least threatening it. Also, I think it's worth remembering that Tom Riddle is LV's childhood name - by using it, as well as with his reactions, DD belittles Voldie completely. LV shouts and is angry and throws curses around like a three-year-old. DD strolls about the place, calmly deflecting curses as if LV was throwing toy cars at him. Once again, it's about power. It's like DD is saying "Right, that's enough now, Tommy, time to stop playing, or no sweeties for you". Following on from this point, by using the name "Tom", DD invalidates Tom Riddle's claim that he is this big scary evil guy - it's an accusation of pretence. One last point, then. From UK edition, page718: " 'You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?' called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. 'Above such brutality, are you?' 'We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom,' Dumbledore said calmly [...] 'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit -' " IMO, these are not the words of someone who wants to try and redeem their opponent. They are the words of someone who wants to prove their power. DD's saying that killing LV isn't the worst thing he could do - and that whatever _is_ the worst thing, he is capable of doing and would be perfectly happy to do. This might not even be true - maybe DD has no plan whatsoever - but he's the most powerful one in the situation. It's all about power, I tell you. Just a thought. ;-) ~ Martha, who wants to be an Evil Overlord when she grows up From KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net Thu Oct 2 01:34:51 2003 From: KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net (Kagome Shikon Seeker) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:34:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82055 jwcpgh says: Besides, Sirius thought that *Remus* was the spy. So he had no reason to want to find him for a jolly school reunion. Kagome (me): Just a minor correction here. Sirius thought that Remus was the spy _until_ Pettigrew betrayed the Potters. At that point, he knew Remus hadn't been the spy, but that Peter had always been. Otoh, he also knew that Remus thought that _he_ was the spy, hence he had no reason to contact Remus, because he knew Remus would assume the worst of him. From nelle_chan at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 02:02:12 2003 From: nelle_chan at hotmail.com (Nelle Chan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 02:02:12 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n8483483" wrote: > Does Hagrid have an official wand? Was he really cleared of all > charges? I thought not but maybe I missed something. When he was > looking for the giants, he said he was not allowed to use magic. > > I don't recall reading about him having a wand (other than his > umbrella). Shouldn't he have one now? Won't he need one for the > great battles coming soon? G.F., Some readers believe that Hagrid's wand (or what's left of it) is concealed within his umbrella. You may wish to check out www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/wands.html (which is part of the HPfGU faqs, and discusses the matter of Hagrid's wand). I hope this helps. -Nelle From kimberley42 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 02:42:01 2003 From: kimberley42 at yahoo.com (Kim) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 02:42:01 -0000 Subject: House Elfs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zihav" wrote: > Greetings: > > I've been wondering, we know how to dismiss a house elf, but how does > a wizarding family go about getting a house elf? We know that Ron > states in CoS that it's an old wizarding family with lots of gold, > but is that the only requirement? I think it would be pretty funny if > Hermione ends up with a House Elf (Winky) and can't bring herself to > dismiss her becasue she's now happy again. Ron and Harry would have > tell her that she would treat Winky better than anyone else. On page vi of "Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them", supposedly written by Newt Scamander, but actually one of the two Comic Relief fundraiser books written by JKR, it says: "Newton ("Newt") Artemis Fido Scamander was born in 1897. His interest in fabulous beasts was encouraged by his mother, who was an enthusiastic breeder of fancy Hippogriffs. Upon graduation from Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, Mr. Scamander joined the Ministry of Magic in the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures. After two years at the Office for House-Elf Relocation, years he describes as 'tedious in the extreme,' he was transferred to the Beast Division, where his prodigious knowledge of bizarre magical animals ensured him rapid promotion." So, there is an Office for House-Elf Relocation. Perhaps it is like an employment agency that matches elves with potential wizarding families? How awful in personality would a House-Elf have to be in order to be placed with the Malfoys? Or maybe it's a random process, resulting in an ethical Dobby stuck under Lucius's iron thumb... ---Kimberley From Erthena at aol.com Thu Oct 2 03:39:21 2003 From: Erthena at aol.com (werebearloony) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 03:39:21 -0000 Subject: FILK: Umbridgeana Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82058 I was listening to the CD of OoP over the past few weeks and I found this quote which made me stop the CD and start singing as loud as I could, making up the words as I went. `Professor Umbridge was sitting there, a clipboard on her knee ' (OoP US edition p. 661) Umbridgeana To the tune of Oh! Susanna American folk tune by Stephen Foster. See the midi at http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Cottage/3192/Suzanna.html Oh I'm going to Trelawney With my clipboard on my knee And I'm going to inspect her Just for the ministry Oh! Trelawney! You'd better scry for me Cause I'm coming to your tower With my clipboard on my knee Oh I'm going to see Hagrid With my clipboard on my knee I would like to sack him Then I'd be half-blood free Oh! I hate them Those folks who aren't like me So I'll unfairly inspect him With my clipboard on my knee I'm going to McGonagall's office With my clipboard on my knee I'm going to Minerva's That Potter boy to see Oh dear filchy Oh don't you cry for me Cause I'm going to McGonagall's With my clipboard on my knee Oh I'm not going to Binnsey With my clipboard on my knee Why I don't go to inspect him is quite the Mystery Oh dear Binnsey You are quite safe from me Cause I'm not gonna inspect you With my clipboard on my knee From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 04:10:20 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 04:10:20 -0000 Subject: Born Just To Observe the Stars (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82059 This is a filk of the song "Born Under a Wanderin' Star" from the Lerner and Loewe musical "Paint Your Wagon." I dedicate this song to Wendy St John Born Just To Observe the Stars SCENE: Firenze gives his qualifications to be the new Divination Professor. FIRENZE: I was born just to observe the stars. I was born just to observe the stars. Eyes are made for seein', telescopes to look. I've never seen a constellation I can't read like a book. I was born just to observe the stars. Crystal Balls get cloudy and the teacups full of muck. Palmistry's a crapshoot, any fortune's just dumb luck. Anyone can prophesy from dreams of what they'll do, Which, if I recall, have never come true. I was born just to observe the stars. I was born just to observe the stars. Planets are for wanderin' out there in the night. The heavens are the place to learn whether Mars is bright tonight. I was born just to observe the stars, The wanderin', wanderin' stars. Crystal Balls get cloudy and the teacups full of muck. Palmistry's a crapshoot, any fortune's just dumb luck. Anyone can prophesy from dreams of what they'll do, Which, if I recall, have never come true. I was born just to observe the stars. I was born just to observe the stars. When I see the heavens my heart is filled with glee. I think about the future and I make a prophecy. I was born just to observe the stars. The wanderin', wanderin' stars. -Haggridd From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Oct 2 06:22:22 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:22:22 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna, Hagrid, Thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F7C50BE.25687.3E608FF@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 82060 On 2 Oct 2003 at 1:38, Dave wrote: > Hi, How is everyone tonight? Anyway, I've got a question about OP. > In OP pg 762, when talking about the Thestrals, Luna says "Hagrid > says they're very good at finding places their riders are looking > for". However, on pg 438 Hagrid says "I've been keepin' a couple o' > creatures saved fer yer O.W.L. year. As Luna is a fourth year, how > would she know what Hagrid said about the thestrals? Well, she seems to know a fair bit amount them - my idea is that she realised she could see them and nobody else seemed to be able to (relatively few Hogwarts students have hopefully seen death). She may have sought out Hagrid (in one of his official roles) as her most available source of information about them - Hagrid, to me, seems the type of person who if confronted with a young girl who'd lost a parent and was seeking information would be likely to tell her what she wants to know, even if it was something he'd normally leave till later. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 06:58:24 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:58:24 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" , in #81968, wrote a lot of stuff. Talisman, seizing her bat to ward off a flock of rouge Bludgers, responds: Again, it seems best to leave the argument intact so that readers are cognizant of the point being addressed. It's lengthy, but I think readable. In # 81961 Talisman wrote: I agree with Kneasy et al. who find Lupin's "epiphany" implausible. There are too many dots to connect, too many alternative scenarios and even if you guessed right, you'd want to hear it from Sirius, rather than feed him the explanation. It smells to high heaven of pre-arrangement. Remnant wrote: Another take on this is that Lupin never wanted to believe in his heart that his good friend was really the traitor. Even though his mind said not to trust Sirius, his heart told him that Sirius was one of his best pals. Now Talisman writes: You can believe that Lupin has always loved his friend, no matter what else you believe. I'm certainly not saying otherwise. Remnant wrote: So as soon as a reasonable story comes out exonerating the old dog, he believes it. And the finger was the extra bit of evidence he needed. Talisman writes now: Problem 1) no story, reasonable or otherwise "came" out before Lupin's supposed epiphany. Lupin runs into the room, asks "where is he?" and then basically says: Aha! So that means you switched and made him the secret keeper, but didn't tell me, and this means he is really the traitor who sold out Lily and James (and that means you are innocent!) Come to my arms my beamish boy! (PoA 344) Sirius is pointing at Ron. (Oh, I see, you are pointing at Ron; that must mean you weren't the secret keeper!?) Huh? This could mean Sirius is getting ready to say that Ron hit Pettigrew over the head and he's now lying somewhere in the shrubbery. Or, that Sirius is mental and just likes to point. Or, in the WW, this could mean Pettigrew is drinking polyjuice potion and Ron is in a trunk, because Pettigrew is hot for Hermione. Why doesn't Lupin want to know what Sirius means? Problem 2) Lupin hasn't seen any missing rat fingers at this point. So on what evidence was he relying? All he has is that he saw Pettigrew's name on the MM. Problem 3) Lupin can NOT tell from the MM that Pettigrew is in rat form. Yet, in the Shrieking Shack he knows this instantly 1)without being told, 2) without even seeing Scabbers. And, I can think of scenarios that would explain Pettigrew hiding out, but still not make him the secret keeper and/or traitor. Why didn't Lupin want to hear what Sirius/Pettigrew had to say before he leapt to conclusions about what was going on? Everybody is in the room. Lupin has all the wands. Let's chat, already. Why not hear some explanations before you embrace the guy 1) you used to think was a spy, 2) who might have killed your other best friend, and 2) who might be trying to kill your dead best friend's son? But Lupin gets from A to Z in a snap, supposedly just because Pettigrew is still alive. Unless you believe he had prior information. Remnant wrote: He may also have used a bit of legilimency to see from Sirius or Pettigrew who told the truth. Talisman now writes: Well, it's easy to start explaining everything with Legilimacy, now that we have it, isn't it. I do think that Lupin has some level of empathic power. It may just have more to do with his being a great guy. Some people have a superior facility for understanding others. Call it Emotional I.Q. Maybe enhanced by a sort of animal instinct. But, we have never been told that he is a Legilimens. And, even if we find out that he is a Legilimens, it also means that Lupin knows/believes that Sirius is not skilled in Occlumency. Furthermore, Lupin's Legilimency must have been acquired while Sirius was in Azkaban, or he wouldn't have once suspected Sirius of being "the spy," and he would have known Sirius was innocent of the sell-out, all along. Moreover, after Lupin tells Sirius that they owe Harry an explanation, and Sirius grudgingly agrees, Lupin says: "You'll need to help me, Sirius . . .I only know how it began." (PoA 352) Also, Lupin had not yet made eye contact with Scabbers/Pettigrew, so even if he were a Legilimens, he couldn't know Pettigrew's story before he started embracing Sirius. Remnant wrote: Or, more realistically (cynically?), JKR needed to keep the scene fast-paced, since so much had to happen for her plot. Talisman now writes: Really? You mean because she is obviously so adverse to writing long books that she couldn't spare a paragraph or two to have Sirius/Pettigrew explain? Tsk, tsk Remnant. Analysis by coincidence, bad writing, and plot expediency? You've earned yourself a trip to message #80011. Then Talisman wrote: I do think Harry was bait. Not Lupin's bait, but Fudge's (and of course Dumbledore's--though not for the same reasons). I don't think imprisoned Sirius asked for the crossword, or that he even saw the photo with Pettigrew until Fudge gave it to him (Fudge knows Sirius is innocent, so does Dumbledore and by the action in PoA Snape and Lupin do, too.) Fudge knew the effect the photo would have on Sirius. He also helped Sirius escape (Sirius's account of why the dementor's didn't effect him and how he escaped doesn't hold water.) Remnant wrote: Interesting theory! But remember that Sirius was already resisting the effect of the dementors pretty well . . . Talisman now writes: You know, I don't think I will "remember" that. You may notice, by a review of the original paragraph above, that I say : "Sirius's account of why the dementors didn't effect him and how he escaped doesn't hold water." So, that would be my position on the matter. Let's take a look at the details on PoA 371-72, (since I'm betting you didn't review this part before you decided to disagree with me): 1. Lupin says he doesn't actually know how he escaped. He swears he didn't use Dark Magic--and no one else has ever escaped from Azkaban- -but, weak and wandless, Sirius did it without knowing how or what he was doing. In a mystery story, that alone should convince you there was outside help. 2. Sirius "thinks" that his innocence saved him from losing his mind. Funny, being innocent didn't save Hagrid when he was sent up in CoS. Hermione: "Is it awful there, Hagrid?" (PoA 220) "Yeh've no idea," said Hagrid quietly. "Never bin anywhere like it. Thought I was goin' *mad* Kep' goin' over horrible stuff . . ." (220 my emphasis) "Yeh can' remember who you are after awhile. An' yeh can' see the point o' livin' at all. I used ter hope I'd jus' die in me sleep." (221) "But you were innocent!" said Hermione Hagrid snorted. "Think that matters to them? They don't give a damn who's innocent and who's not." (221) (And of course the Dementor's have a mighty effect on Harry. Are you saying he's not innocent?) The fact is, innocence alone won't save you. But a powerful DD enchantment just might. Like, if he wanted you on ice, so didn't work to get you cleared, but is kind enough to limit your suffering? And then there's that whole Stubby Boardman question. 3. Sirius alternately says he slipped past the Dementors when they opened his door to feed him, or that he slipped through the bars. Now, we know that Sirius "was one of the most heavily guarded [prisoners] in [Azkaban]." (PoA 209) With "Dementors outside his door night and day." (PoA 209) The "open door" escape version requires us to believe that, as Sirius explains: "It's so much harder for them to sense animal emotions that they were confused." (PoA 372) Odd that they would be confused and bamboozled in close quarters when they are specifically guarding him, but they weren't confused at all when they swarmed after Padfoot as he ran around the spacious, rather populated, Hogwarts grounds on the night of the Shrieking Shack scene. (PoA 382) The "slipped through the bars" version requires us to additionally believe that Padfoot, an "enormous bear-like dog" (PoA 381)--large and powerful enough to control a werewolf-- could get thin enough to slip through prison bars. Lose all the weight you want, there's only so much you can do with skulls and rib cages, etc. Just how widely spaced were those bars? Moreover, it appears that the Dementors have the effect of forcing Padfoot to transform back to his human form: The "yelping stopped abruptly . . . They saw why--Sirius had turned back into a man. He was crouched on all fours, his hands over his head." (PoA 382) Sirius then gives a shudder, rolls over and lays motionless on the ground, "as pale as death." (PoA 383) Sirius remains knocked-out for the duration of the Dementor action. Yeah, he's doing a great job of resisting them. Maybe I can sell you some real estate? Read my lips: Someone sprang Sirius. Remnant wrote: . . . and the request for his newspaper may have been so unexpected from an Azkaban prisoner that Fudge just gave it to Sirius in open- mouthed wonder. I guess I just don't want to give Fudge that much credit. Talisman now writes: So you think Sirius really was missing that crossword puzzle? And even if he did, you think that Fudge, who is outside the bars and has the protection of his beloved Dementors, would more likely give the evil Sirius his paper than shrink back and tell him to bugger- off? Then Talisman wrote: This [Fudge wanting to draw the loosed Sirius to Harry] explains why Fudge didn't punish Harry for blowing up Aunt Marge. He had bigger fish to fry. Remnant wrote: True, but I assumed that his concern for Harry was more political. At that point, Harry is kind of a hero or at least a national oddity. Talisman now writes: At least two problems with this explanation. 1) Harry was a national hero from 1981, on. But that didn't stop the M.O.M. from trying to bust him for Dobby's magic in CoS. (And, they have to be able to discern WHO is doing magic at a particular address, or how would they ever bust children from wizarding families?) I say they were gunning for him. Ditto Book 5, where he clearly fell within the legitimate use exception. Yet in Book 3, the one time they could have honestly nailed him, and for a number of violations, they let him go, why? 2) Punishing Harry for underage use of magic, violation of secrecy laws, etc. in no way precludes keeping him safe from Black. There is no reason Fudge couldn't do both. Dim-witted as Harry can be, even he thinks something is fishy: "there was something extremely odd going on . . . this didn't tally at all with Harry's past dealings with the Ministry of Magic." (PoA 45) Remnant continues: To let the Boy Who Lived die at the hands of the prisoner who escaped under Fudge's watch would have been a political disaster for Fudgie. Talisman now writes: Yeah, Fudgie wanted to be sure Harry was safe and sound, alright. I guess that is why Fudgie ensconced Harry in that fortress of safety: The Leaky Cauldron (PoA 44); along with the liver-slurping hags, wild-looking warlocks and raucous dwarfs. (PoA 49) Of course, Fudgie did place Harry under the care of that lethal bodyguard, old Tom, the "wizened, toothless landlord." (PoA 42) "Tom will be keeping an eye on you for me" (PoA 46) Alrighty then. Moreover, as Harry wanders around the shops of Diagon Alley, all by his lonesome, JKR gives us another POV that we can use in assessing Fudge's behavior; that of an actually caring parent who says: "Personally, I won't let any of my children out alone until [Black's] back in Azkaban." (PoA 50) Remnant wrote: Talisman now writes: Hey, that was some good stuff! Then Talisman wrote: You don't think it was a coincidence that he showed up to teach DADA this particular year, do you? No, he was a planned part of the Sirius comeback tour. Remnant wrote: That's one possibility. But the beauty of JKR's fiendish plotting is that it could as easily be that Lupin approached DD only after the second year began. Well, since the only "fiendish plotting" you've expounded is a fiendish pile of coincidence, I'll take this as sarcasm. Nonetheless, in opposition to your "how can we ever know" explanation, DD tells us at the start of the term that Lupin "consented to fill the Defense Against Dark Arts position." (PoA 92) The reasonable inference, then, is that DD asked him. You know, I welcome thoughtful debate. But it seems rather poor sport to spend the time reading/thinking/documenting my arguments, and then have to do the additional work to show folks, who have not done any work, that they are just pulling stuff out of their, erm, hip pockets. Remnant wrote: Or DD asked Lupin before the second year, but based on his books thought Lockhart the better candidate. Talisman now writes: And people think *I* have a bad opinion of DD. (Actually, I think he rocks--but I don't necessarily want to be part of one of his plans.) DD is a Legilimens, and a darn good judge of character. He also seems to interview his candidates. Even Ron and Hagrid are on to Lockhart from the word go. Hagrid's explanation for Lockhart is that DD had NO other choice. (CoS 115 ) I say we know that isn't true. For one thing, there are plenty of talented wizards in the Order who know all about DADA, and would do whatever DD asked them. DD is never acting out of desperation, he chooses whom to place in the DADA hot seat, specifically to facilitate his plans. Talisman wrote: If you just relax and accept it, you'll find it all fits so easy. Remnant wrote: I know, I'm so darn innocent, but sometimes I want to believe that after five books and the intro of the OOP we'd have been told about all this. Talisman now writes: 1) Innocent, is it? 2) I think "all this" is all there to be seen; and 3) How many mystery stories do you read? Usually they do remain mysteries--until the end. Remnant wrote: So many loose ends to tie up if all this magic dishwashery stuff is to be true! 1) My theories sometimes cross/intersect with Magic Dishwasher, but I don't agree with everything the MDD's say, and I'm sure they don't necessarily agree with me. 2) If you see my theory, it actually takes care of all the loose ends. It's when you are trying to tear it apart that you feel the need for so much more information. Remnant wrote: And I just don't think DD is orchestrating everything all the time. What about freedom of choice? Talisman now writes: What you are saying is that you don't WANT to think DD's in control. That's a different thing altogether than laying a well- defended argument to show that he's not. As to freedom of choice, per se, I suggest that: 1) people who think their choices aren't largely delimited (by others and circumstances, etc) are somewhat deluded; 2) trying to make the text fit a preconceived ideology leads to bad reading; 3) I didn't see any certificate in my books guaranteeing that freedom of choice would drive the plot; and 4) yet you can still find it in spots--and with pretty important choices, too--such as when Harry decides not to blast Sirius, and then not to let anyone blast Wormtail, etc. Talisman, off to talk to Madam Hooch about the problem of games that are all Bludger and no Quaffle. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 06:59:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:59:36 -0000 Subject: Returning to the DoM (Was:Re: The Death Chamber) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82062 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > Jennifer: > > You bring up an excellent point. Harry destroyed countless > prophecies. How will their rightful owners ever have access to them > now? bboy_mn: I'm not so sure that prophecies are accessed that often. The point seemed to be that only the people who were involved in the various prophecies COULD access them, and not that there was a constant parade of those people in the Department accessing them. I took the existance of this prophecy storage in the Dept of Mysteries as a matter of research. Wizards are keeping statisical data on the accuracy of prophecies and perhaps on who makes the most accurate prophecies, etc.... So all the loss of these prophecies means is that the Dept. of Mysteries research will be messed up. > Jennifer: > > And I do not think PI in the hands of the MoM would be legal > (that of course, would not preclude it from happening...) not to > mention feasible! bboy_mn: Regarding only the DE's that were caught that night at the Ministry of Magic; they were caught in the commission of a crime, therefore their wands would be evidence, and the PI retrieved spell echos would seem to be perfectly legal as a means of gathering further evidence. > Jennifer: > > I do think I have things mixed up though. You do not need > the brother wand to do PI. The odd effect of the glowing geodesic > dome (not to mention the "echo effect") comes when you have two > wands made from the same tree forced to duel each other. PI is > totally separate from that. My apologies. Still, the results would > be similar, it seems. > > Jennifer bboy_mn: You're right there is some confusion in the discussion of the Prior Incantatum. We actually have two separate things that produce the same or similar result; the Prior Incantatum SPELL, and the Prior Incantatum EFFECT. The PI Spell is what we see Amos Diggery do to Harry's wand in the wood after the Quidditch World Cup. On the other hand, the PI Effect is what happens when two wands with 'brother' cores cast spells against each other. I think only the 'echo' or 'reverse spell' aspect is related to the PI effect. My opinion is that the cage of golden light and the Phoenix song, etc... are characteristic of the fact the the wands involved had Fawkes Phoenix feather cores. Two wands with hair from the same unicorn, would produce the 'echo' or 'reverse spell' effect, but not the other asects that we see in the graveyard. So in the graveyard, we are actually witnessing two separate but related phenomenon; the first being the effect of two Fawkes feather wand casting spells against each other, and the other is the 'echoing' of the most recent spells cast by the wand that loses the duel. Just a thought. bboy_mn From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 07:05:51 2003 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 07:05:51 -0000 Subject: Prophecies (was: Returning to the DoM, Was: The Death Chamber) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82063 Hi All, --- In HPforGrownups Sunnyi wrote: > I always wondered how simple it was for Harry & Co. to destroy the > prophecies and to hear what they said (of course, because of the > minor trouble with the DEs they didn't really pay attention...). > > Please, could anybody tell me why LV didn't send a DE to simply > destroy (not touch) his prophecy, telling him afterwards what it was > about? Good point. I think that your plan is far simpler, and less risky than Voldemort's, but only if you know that destroying the prophecy does not harm the destroyer, and yet does unlock the prophesy. We know that because the kids did it, but my impression is that Voldemort knew very little about the processes involved in getting a prophecy from the Department of Mysteries. So he'd have had to test your plan first on another orb. But what if it hadn't worked? His initial failure to get the prophecy using Bode aroused suspicions, to leave another wrecked wizard in the Department of Mysteries should have resulted in phenomenal security clamp-down. Hence Voldemort had to go with the more complex plan. Cheers, Dumbledad. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 07:35:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 07:35:04 -0000 Subject: Foreign DADA Teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > aussie: > > ...edited... who can DD spare and trust to be the new Defence > Against Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts? > > JOB OPENNING: > One option, (and this will somewhat pacify kids that are calling for > non-Britts to be in the movie) is to import a witch or wizard from > away from all the DE influence - from outside of Europe. > > JOB REQUIREMENTS: > a) From an area where magic is ancient and established - (so if USA > or Australia, maybe native populations). > b) Experienced with dangerous magical areas (if not fighting Dark > wizards, then dnagerous creatures) - (Dragon colonies are in Peru > and New Zealand) > c) a traditional Brit ally would fit in nicely (does it seem I am > bias to Australia and New Zealand? .. lol) > > ...edited... > > SUGGESTION: > ... that sounds like a laid back, back packing, quidditch playing, > aussie, or Kiwi. ~aussie~ bboy_mn: Well, I certainly think an Aussie or Kiwi DADA teacher would add a fun new element to the story, that's not how I see it happening. In general, if it was someone from North or South America, it would have to be, in my opinion, someone from an aboriginal tribe. Although, I have think of one dark acception; a VooDoo priest/priestess/witchdoctor from New Orleans, they would certainly know a lot about dark magic. However, I think JKR said we wouldn't see any American wizard or witches. My next best areas are Africa, certainly dark magic there, Middle East, plenty of ancient magic, or Asian, certainly a mystical and magical region. But I think if a foreign teacher does come, they will come from Eastern Europe. Certainly, a wizard from Transylvania (Romania) would fit the bill. ... or Bulgaria, Russia/Ukraine, Belorussia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, etc... Although, I must say that at the moment I am considering Bill Weasley. He's a curse breaker, I have to believe that to break ancient and deadly curses, you need a pretty strong knowledge of dark magic. But you bring up a good point; could Dumbledore spare him. Would it be an acceptable and productive use of his time and talents to be tied up, figuratively, at Hogwarts during a very critical year? Another suspicion is that Snape might finally get the job. He certainly is qualified, and they need a serious 'Dark Art' wizard more than ever now. I consider the possibility that it might be easier to find a Potions teacher than a Dark Arts teacher. Having a new potions teacher also opens the possibility of Harry taking Advance Potions so he can become an Auror. The new teacher may not have as strict of requirements as Snape. Then again....? Just a thought. bboy_mn From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 07:46:38 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 07:46:38 -0000 Subject: International book versions & character names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82065 > Now Me: > > Hi All, > > I've read this and thought I'd post something about the issue of HP > translations...This is my first post, so forgive me if it's not of > interest! > Italian is my mother tongue, but I have been living in Ireland for > many years and I've actually read all the HP books in English in the > first place. However I recently got hold of a copy of PS/SS in > Italian and read it out of curiosity. > I was appalled by the quality of the translation: > the first problem is, predictably enough, the "free" translation of > people's and places names. Even though in the Italian edition there > is a foreword explicitly dealing with the way the translator worked > on names, this doesn't change the fact that the choices she made are > awful. From "Dumbledore", that has been interpreted as a variation > of "dumb" and therefore translated "Silente" (= silent), to Oliver > Wood (translated the equivalent of Oliver Stick!!!!). And this is > just to make 2 simple examples. > > After this, there are serious mistakes in actually understanding the > meaning of certain sentences that have been translated in a > completely wrong way, thus compromising the faithfulness to the > original and the reader's understanding of what the hell is going on! > > Thirdly and more generally, the nuances and details of JKR's writing > have been nearly totally erased by very poor translating choices. I > know that a translation is never going to be up to the original, but > even I (not a translation expert in anyway!) could come up with > better ways of translating certain expressions in Italian! > > All this rant to come to 1 or 2 questions: > 1- I wonder if JKR or Bloomsbury do actually check up on available HP > translations and perhaps "evaluate them" and make sure they're up to > a certain standard and so on. > 2- Has anybody in the group come across another bad example of HP > translation? > I'm thinking of collecting examples of HP translation "horrors"... > > Thanks and apologies for the lengthy post!!! > Lui I've read the Welsh translation of PS and while it's definately wierd having the characters speak a different language, this version really isn't that bad. They've stuck to the key character names (H/H/R/H/DD) and the translator has tried to either translate a word when it's got a literal meaning, like e.g ravenclaw/gryffindor, or translate into an appropriate sound/meannig where JKR has made the word up ehrself e.g hufflepuff/slytherin. She has lost some emaning in Neville Longbottom's name - given him a rather more aristocratic name in Welsh which looses the bumblingness of Longbottom - but I think, on the whole, it is quite a good example of how to tackle translating a book with so many unusual and multi=meaning words in it. Anyone else read it in Welsh?!!! Ffi From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 08:13:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:13:06 -0000 Subject: Geography as related to the accents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > > ...edited... > > 4. Ottery St Catchpole. This has been picked over before to my > knowledge. There is a village in Devon (SW England) called Ottery St > Mary. Ottery St Catchpole could be anywhere - but I suspect from the > name it is southern. Northern names tend to owe a lot to the norse. > > ...edited... > > June bboy_mn: Interesting point regarding Ottery St Catchpole, 'Ottery' implies that it is on the Otter River which is where Ottery St Mary is. Also, just outside the village of Ottery St Mary is a historic farm that you can visit called Burrow Hill Farm. The Ottery River runs south along side Highway A30 just west of Exeter, and empties into the English Channel between the coastal cities of Exmouth and Sidmouth. If you go to Multimaps.com and zoom in on Ottery St Mary, you will find Burrow Hill Farm just a short distance south east of the village. http://www.multimaps.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=310000&Y=95000&scale=25000&width=500&height=310&gride=&gridn=&coordsys=gb&db=&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&keepicon=true&advanced= OR http://tinyurl.com/pf6s Another good map of Britain is http://www.map24.com/ . You can also find speculative Satellite Maps of Hogwarts location and the location of the Romanian Dragon Research Center at... http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/RomDragCenter.html Alternate: (faster loading) http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/Romania1.htm Just thought I would pass it along. bboy_mn From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 08:25:40 2003 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:25:40 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82067 Hi All, I've just re-read the prophecy chapter and I'm still hopelessly confused. Help! My main problem is that it appears really lame. It doesn't tell anybody much that they didn't already know. Here it is again: 1) The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches . . . 2) born to those who have thrice defied him, 3) born as the seventh month dies . . . and 4) the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but 5) he will have power the Dark Lord knows not . . . and 6) either must die at the hand of the other for 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . 8) the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies . . . There are four main stake-holders involved in the prophecy: the readers, Dumbledore, Harry, and Voldemort, so let's approach the prophecy from the perspective of each of these stake-holders in turn. Firstly the reader, i.e. me. I know that Harry is powerful and is destined for great things, after all each book is titled "Harry Potter and the". So (1) isn't news. (2) is good news, it's nice to know how successful James and Lilly had already been, but it's not earth-shattering news. I can look (3) up on the Lexicon. I've known (4) since the beginning of Book 1. (5) is tantalizing, but Dumbledore has alluded to this repeatedly already, starting at the close of Book 1. Now there is new news in (6). Many of us were imagining that Dumbledore would die whilst defeating Voldemort, a la Gandalf and the balrog. But (6) tells us that's not true. (7) is laughable ? who really expected the `Voldemort now lives in East Cheam, tending his garden and helping out at the local pre-school' ending? (8) is just a repeat. So the whole of an 870 page book culminates in (6)? Surely not. Secondly Dumbledore. Now when Dumbledore first heard the prophecy it must have been an enormous shock. (1) gives him hope, and (2) and (3) give him big clues as to where to find his newest and greatest ally. So, presumably he set up the best web of charms he could to protect Harry and Neville. The Voldemort fulfilled (4) and thus made Dumbledore's job slightly easier, since he now only needed to concentrate on Harry. Dumbledore seems very familiar with the branches of magic that confuse Voldemort, so (5) may not have been such a shock. (6) must have been a terrible realization, but that's a separate thread (e.g. message 65909). (7) would have been real news to Dumbledore too, and increases the pressure on him to keep Harry alive, to teach him very fast, and to develop a huge network of competent witches and wizards of all ages who are supporting Harry. Thirdly Harry. (1) must be good news for Harry ? on each occasion that he has fought Voldemort he has expected the imbalance of power to lead to his own death. Now he knows it's not so imbalanced. (2) is good too, something to be proud of James for (which he needs at the moment). He knows his own birthday (3). Since Book 2 Harry has known some of the impact of the scar, but (4) confirms that. Dumbledore keeps telling him (5). Now, he must have spotted the fact that Voldemort is repeatedly trying to kill him, it's happened 4 times before Book 5, so (6) and (7) don't tell him much. Fourthly Voldemort. Remember that prior to the end of Book 5 Voldemort only knew (1), (2), and (3); though he'll probably find out the remaining clauses next time he enters Harry's head during Harry's dreams and has a good look around. To illustrate the prophecy's impact, as revelation to Voldemort, I want you to imagine that you are planning to buy a new computer. It's got a new Operating System called `OS Omega' and your not sure if you'll be able to understand it, so you first buy a book entitled "OS Omega for Dummies". Here's what the book tells you: 1) OS Omega can do all you need 2) It's developed from three existing Operating Systems that you never managed to understand 3) OS Omega is in the shops at the end of July 4) you will buy OS Omega and try to make it do loads of cool things 5) OS Omega will always have features that you don't know about 6) Either you will understand OS Omega or it will remain a mystery 7) You cannot continue to study OS Omega forever 8) OS Omega can do all you need and will be in the shops at the end of July Wow ? what an esoteric load of nonsense! Where's information about how to find a file? Why hasn't it told me how to store my electronic photos? What a rubbish book ? I'm sure you'd take it back to the shop. Voldemort is in the same position. We are told (by Dumbledore) that "the knowledge of how to destroy" Harry is what "he has been seeking so assiduously since his return". I.e. Voldemort is hunting for a book called "Killing Harry Potter for Dummies". Instead he's told by the prophecy's additional clauses that he's failed to kill Harry already (4), that Harry has mysterious powers (5), and that he needs to get a move on and kill Harry (6) and (7). Wow ? how lame is that? It's probably lucky Voldemort didn't get the orb for he'd have to take it back and demanded a refund! I haven't had a chance to trawl back through all the interesting posts about the prophecy, so it may well be that these issues have already been covered in full. If that's the case please please please just point me to the relevant posts. Cheers, Dumbledad. From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 08:31:26 2003 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:31:26 -0000 Subject: International book versions & character names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82068 > 2- Has anybody in the group come across another bad example of HP > translation? > I'm thinking of collecting examples of HP translation "horrors"... > > Thanks and apologies for the lengthy post!!! > Lui Hi Lui, There is a whole homepage devoted to spotting mistakes in the German versions of HP books. No idea if you speak German, but if you do, this might be interesting to you: http://www.geocities.com/morgenglanz/hp/hpfehler.html ~Florentine~ From furkin1712 at aol.com Thu Oct 2 02:37:19 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:37:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin and Sirius Black Message-ID: <8f.32a552ed.2cace95f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82069 Pippin: > We know that Sirius's ancestor Phineas Nigellus was in > Slytherin and there are snake themed adornments all over > Grimmauld Place. Malfoy tells us that all his family have been in > Slytherin and he is Sirius's first cousin once removed. Sirius > was labelled a blood traitor long before he joined the Order. Did > he get burnt off the tapestry and have to leave home because > he'd switched Houses at school? >I know it seems unlikely that they could have belonged to >different houses, but they *did* have place to meet? - the >passage behind the mirror which is now blocked. > >What would they have needed it for if they were all members of >the same house, and could safely discuss whatever they wanted >in the privacy of their dormitory? Blue Eyes: James was definately in Gryffindor, this is stated several times in the book. And the sorting hat does NOT try to unite all the houses through friendship, I mean simply refer to Harry's generation. There's absolutely no connection. Am I the only one who hoenstly believes that all four were Gryffindors? I mean, they were the Marauders, they needed the Secret Passages and the detentions like other kids need air. ALSO, Grimmauld Place is adorned with Snakes because Sirius' entire family were loyal to the point of obsessed Pure Blooded Slytherins. Sirius, as we know from OoTP, has always hated the house and disagreed with the family and hated the Dark Arts, theoretically there is no reason why he should be placed in Slytherin. I firmly beleive that they were all Gryffindors. I mean, how else would Sirius have known where the porttrait of the Fat Lady was and how would he know that she hid the Gryffindor common rooms if he wasn't in Gryffindor. Also, when he broke into the Common Room in PoA he knew where the dormitories were and he successfully went to the boys dormitories (not the girls) and he successfully found HArry's room (which I think may have been James') and on top of that Sirius found his way to the Fat LAdys portrait, into the Common Room and into the dormitories IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT WHEN IT WAS PITCH BLACK. You would have to know the school pretty darn well to do that, maybe seven years of sneaking back to bed after late night trips to the kitchens? Anyway in closing I sincerely think that they were all in Gryfinndor. Blue Eyes IF YOU AGREE AND WANT TO TALK OT ME EMAIL ME::: furkin1712 at aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 08:42:30 2003 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:42:30 -0000 Subject: Slytherin and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82070 Hi All, --- In HPforGrownups Rose wrote: > It seems logical that Wormtail and Snape > were Slytherin, and James, Griffyndor. What about Sirius? I have seen threads on this ages ago (but sorry, I cannot remember the message numbers and don't feel up to a battle with yahoomort). The cannon I remember was this (from PS/SS): "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You- Know-Who was one." At this point in the plot, Hagrid knows Sirius well and believes he went very very bad. Cheers, Dumbledad. From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 08:49:33 2003 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:49:33 -0000 Subject: Foreign DADA Teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > > > aussie: > > > > ...edited... who can DD spare and trust to be the new Defence > > Against Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts? > > > > JOB OPENNING: > > One option, (and this will somewhat pacify kids that are calling for > > non-Britts to be in the movie) is to import a witch or wizard from > > away from all the DE influence - from outside of Europe. > > > > JOB REQUIREMENTS: > > a) From an area where magic is ancient and established - (so if USA > > or Australia, maybe native populations). > > b) Experienced with dangerous magical areas (if not fighting Dark > > wizards, then dnagerous creatures) - (Dragon colonies are in Peru > > and New Zealand) > > c) a traditional Brit ally would fit in nicely (does it seem I am > > bias to Australia and New Zealand? .. lol) > > > > ...edited... > > > > SUGGESTION: > > ... that sounds like a laid back, back packing, quidditch playing, > > aussie, or Kiwi. ~aussie~ > > bboy_mn: > > Well, I certainly think an Aussie or Kiwi DADA teacher would add a fun > new element to the story, that's not how I see it happening. > > In general, if it was someone from North or South America, it would > have to be, in my opinion, someone from an aboriginal tribe. Although, > I have think of one dark acception; a VooDoo > priest/priestess/witchdoctor from New Orleans, they would certainly > know a lot about dark magic. However, I think JKR said we wouldn't see > any American wizard or witches. > > My next best areas are Africa, certainly dark magic there, Middle > East, plenty of ancient magic, or Asian, certainly a mystical and > magical region. > > But I think if a foreign teacher does come, they will come from > Eastern Europe. Certainly, a wizard from Transylvania (Romania) would > fit the bill. ... or Bulgaria, Russia/Ukraine, Belorussia, Latvia, > Estonia, Lithuania, etc... > > Although, I must say that at the moment I am considering Bill Weasley. > He's a curse breaker, I have to believe that to break ancient and > deadly curses, you need a pretty strong knowledge of dark magic. But > you bring up a good point; could Dumbledore spare him. Would it be an > acceptable and productive use of his time and talents to be tied up, > figuratively, at Hogwarts during a very critical year? > > Another suspicion is that Snape might finally get the job. He > certainly is qualified, and they need a serious 'Dark Art' wizard more > than ever now. I consider the possibility that it might be easier to > find a Potions teacher than a Dark Arts teacher. Having a new potions > teacher also opens the possibility of Harry taking Advance Potions so > he can become an Auror. The new teacher may not have as strict of > requirements as Snape. > > Then again....? > > Just a thought. > bboy_mn Florentine: I would like to suggest the possibility of a Chinese DADA sorcerer/sorceress. He/she would be skilled in martial arts and driving out demons. He/she could also give the students some instructions on Buddhist philosphy. That could compensate for the current lack of psychological and ethic counselling at Hogwarts, IMHO. ~Florentine~ From mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk Thu Oct 2 10:02:28 2003 From: mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk (mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:02:28 CET Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: International book versions & character names Message-ID: <200310021002495.SM00512@Debug> No: HPFGUIDX 82072 Hi all Lui (porpentina_75): > > Thirdly and more generally, the nuances and details of JKR's > writing > > have been nearly totally erased by very poor translating choices. I > > know that a translation is never going to be up to the original, I started reading the Danish translation of the books and they are translated very well. The personalities of the characters and their language and tone is almost perfect. The main characters have the same names as in the UK version but Hagrid's creatures are called something else. But when I read PS in UK I found out that we already here was told that Harry's Wand had a feather from a phoenix inside - in the Danish book it was something strange I have never heard about. That and lots of clues in the books are more or less erased. The 10th of October the Danish translation of OotP will be released and I'm curious to see how the prophecy will be translated.... Have a nice day, Anette -- Anette Becker Wytopitlock Maine Coon Cats www.wytopitlock.dk mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Oct 2 09:55:00 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 09:55:00 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > >> > Who did the watching for Fudge? > > > > In the Sirius Reservations post (79808) I pointed out that in his > > rambling tale of his escape, Sirius never claims to have zipped > > south to see Harry; but this has been a 'given' among posters. > > What if it wasn't Sirius after all, but a watcher for Fudge? > > Oh, but Sirius does indeed claim that. He writes in the letter Harry > receives on the train ride at the end of school in PoA "I would also > like to apologize for the fright I think I gave you that night last > year when you left your uncle's house. I had only hoped to get a > glimpse of you before starting my journy north..." > > Thanks for the correction. So Sirius was there. Pity. I was hoping that 79808 wasn't going to continue to demonstrate what a threadbare tale Sirius' escape story is. But I'm still wondering who was watching for Fudge. Not ole Figgy, or he'd have known her at the trial in OoP. So who? Kneasy From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Oct 2 10:18:08 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 10:18:08 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82074 Hi Dumbledad :-) I think the prophecy holds a big clue, that many readers, including me, didn't realise in the beginning. It's in the sentence "And he will have powers the Dark Lord knows not". Voldemort hoped, that the prophecy might give him a hint, how to kill Harry. It doesn't. But it gives a hint, how to kill Voldemort (probably through love). Once Voldemort found out, that Harry has powers he hasn't, he would try everything to find out, what these powers are, so that he will be prepared, if Harry uses these powers against him. That's why Dumbledore didn't want Voldemort to hear the prophecy. Hickengruendler From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 2 10:25:44 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:25:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031002102544.67319.qmail@web86209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82075 arrowsmithbt wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > >> > Who did the watching for Fudge? > > > > In the Sirius Reservations post (79808) I pointed out that in his > > rambling tale of his escape, Sirius never claims to have zipped > > south to see Harry; but this has been a 'given' among posters. > > What if it wasn't Sirius after all, but a watcher for Fudge? > > Oh, but Sirius does indeed claim that. He writes in the letter Harry > receives on the train ride at the end of school in PoA "I would also > like to apologize for the fright I think I gave you that night last > year when you left your uncle's house. I had only hoped to get a > glimpse of you before starting my journy north..." > > Kneasy wrote Thanks for the correction. So Sirius was there. Pity. I was hoping that 79808 wasn't going to continue to demonstrate what a threadbare tale Sirius' escape story is. But I'm still wondering who was watching for Fudge. Not ole Figgy, or he'd have known her at the trial in OoP. So who? U_P_D Harry used his wand to call the Knight Bus, I have always assumed that this use will have been tracked at the MOM. If Harry was on a "Watch this Wand and tell me List" then Fudge would have been informed of where and when Harry called the KB. We don't know that they can but niether do we know that the MOM can't contact the KB, is this problem solved? Fudge appeared to know that Harry was coming to the Leaky Cauldron and was just relieved and not surprised, when he arrived. Udder pen Dragon Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 2 10:45:24 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:45:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031002104524.66808.qmail@web86203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82076 hickengruendler wrote: Hi Dumbledad :-) Hickengruendler wrote I think the prophecy holds a big clue, that many readers, including me, didn't realise in the beginning. It's in the sentence "And he will have powers the Dark Lord knows not". Voldemort hoped, that the prophecy might give him a hint, how to kill Harry. It doesn't. But it gives a hint, how to kill Voldemort (probably through love). Once Voldemort found out, that Harry has powers he hasn't, he would try everything to find out, what these powers are, so that he will be prepared, if Harry uses these powers against him. That's why Dumbledore didn't want Voldemort to hear the prophecy. U_P_D I agree with what you said and I would like to add. The big "V" has basicly wasted a year trying to find out what this prophecy said, he has failed. He now knows that the MOM copy of it is broken, and no-one heard it. Bellatrix was in the Prophcy Room and knows that Harry does not know it either. This can be a "Big Deal" for someone who believes such things to be important as obviously LV does. The fact of the Prophecy is not realy an issue, it is the niggling doubt for LV that is the benefit for the good guys. Udder pen Dragon Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From FilkMavenGB at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 11:17:56 2003 From: FilkMavenGB at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 07:17:56 -0400 Subject: (FILK) Harry Stolde The Show Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82077 Harry Stoled The Show (A Filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Ya Never Know_ from the Musical _Little Shop Of Horrors_) Midi should be here: www.hamienet.com/cat370.html I say "should" because I was playing just a moment ago, but now it won't open for me. Good luck. It isn't the best, but beggers can't be choosers. Dedicated to Tracy Hunt...I'm still brainstorming on "Somewhere That's Green". (In front of the curtain stand Ron, Hermione, Angelina, Katie and Alicia who watch the sky, listening and reacting to the voice over of Bagman giving a running commentary of the First Task. The sound of a roaring dragon and the gasps/cheers of the crowd can also be heard) Bagman (Voice Over): He's using diversionary tactics on the Horntail now. Ooooo...close one there...the tail almost got him. Watch out for those jaws! Look at that! Will you look at that! Our youngest champion is quickest to get his Egg! Well, this is going to shorten the odds on Mr. Potter. Ron (Singing): I can't believe it, Harry's tied in first place Lickety-split, right in the dragon's face Snatched up the Egg from the nest, Harry must feel thrilled He called his Firebolt by using Accio It was a great jolt, just watching the whole show I didn't know that my best friend Harry was so skilled But what makes it so frightening is that he could've been killed Whoever put Harry's name In the Goblet that night He's the one who's to blame Who that nasty git is I can not imagine But I reckon he's trying to do Harry in! (Enter Harry and Bagman) Harry (speaking): How'd I do? Alicia: You was great, flying up there Harry! Katie: You flew even better than Vicktor Krum! Angelina: You're now tied in first place, Harry! Who'd a believed it? (Singing) Harry needed his broom To get past the Horntail - we assumed He would become impaled - he was doomed It was a hopeless scenario A dragon! But Presto! Harry stolde the show with Accio (Alicia and Katie join in) It was a great surprise When his broom appeared then Mesmerized, everybody cheered when He grabbed the prize - even former Quidditch star Ludo Bagman said, Bagman: Watch him go! Angelina, Katie and Alicia: Harry stolde the show with Accio Katie (speaking): Hang on Harry, Katie's gonna croon for ya (singing) Before, students were swearing "Potter Stinks" badges they were wearing 'Cause they said Diggory should be the only one Now the First Task is finished Their hate for Harry has diminished 'Cause they see that Harry's also a Champion Angelina, Katie, Alicia: "Was easy!" Harry claims Dodging the dragon's dangerous flames Harry: I just flew like I was in a game Swerving back and forth and to and fro Angelina, Katie, Alicia: Fantastic! Harry stolde the show with Accio Thanks to Hermione Who helped him with the charm Harry he escaped bodily harm Was funny, you should have seen the face on Draco With a wave of his wand Cast the spell - swish and flick Hear us yell, "Terrific!" Hocus pocus, Harry focused: His broom came to him like an arrow And now he's a hero Harry stolde the show with Accio! -Gail B...who always wanted to sing the role of one of those Doo-Wop chicks, but doesn't have enough soul :(> _________________________________________________________________ Instant message with integrated webcam using MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Oct 2 11:34:51 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 11:34:51 -0000 Subject: International book versions & character names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florentine Maier" wrote: > > 2- Has anybody in the group come across another bad example of HP > > translation? > > I'm thinking of collecting examples of HP translation "horrors"... > > > > Thanks and apologies for the lengthy post!!! > > Lui > > Hi Lui, > > There is a whole homepage devoted to spotting mistakes in the German > versions of HP books. No idea if you speak German, but if you do, this > might be interesting to you: > > http://www.geocities.com/morgenglanz/hp/hpfehler.html > > ~Florentine~ Geoff: This is not new phenomenon; before JKR hit it, Tolkien had the same trouble with the Swedish LOTR; in fact he insisted that the foreword be deleted and a good deal of amending carried out befote it hit the bookshops. Actually, unless the name has a specific meaning, I don't see the need to try to translate it. For example, not everybody knows that Dumbledore means bumble bee so why not leave Albus alone? From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Oct 2 12:05:13 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 12:05:13 -0000 Subject: International book versions & character names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82079 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Florentine Maier" > wrote: > > > 2- Has anybody in the group come across another bad example of HP > > > translation? > > > I'm thinking of collecting examples of HP translation "horrors"... > > > > > > Thanks and apologies for the lengthy post!!! > > > Lui > > > > Hi Lui, > > > > There is a whole homepage devoted to spotting mistakes in the German > > versions of HP books. No idea if you speak German, but if you do, > this > > might be interesting to you: > > > > http://www.geocities.com/morgenglanz/hp/hpfehler.html > > > > ~Florentine~ In defense of the German translation. It has some serious flaws, especially in POA, but most names aren't changed. I don't know why they decided to call Hermione "Hermine" and Rita Skeeter "Rita Kimmkorn". This is really annoying. But in contrast to most other translations, the German translator Klaus Fritz used the original names in most cases. Hickengruendler From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 12:49:36 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 12:49:36 -0000 Subject: Foreign DADA Teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > > > aussie: > > > > ...edited... who can DD spare and trust to be the new Defence > > Against Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts? > > > > JOB OPENNING: > > One option, (and this will somewhat pacify kids that are calling for > > non-Britts to be in the movie) is to import a witch or wizard from > > away from all the DE influence - from outside of Europe. Personally, I'd like to see someone imported into the DADA position from Salem, Mass. JKR might be able to have a bit of fun with the fact that, though witches were persecuted and burned centuries ago, sophisticated modern Muggles know *better* now -- witches don't really exist! Of course, immigrants to the US at that time (witches and wizards included) were by and large from Western Europe (English pilgrims/French huguenots), so our new American DADA teacher could even be a distant relative; have a bit of a Malfoy/Black/Potter pedigree! :: Entropy :: From jamess at climax.co.uk Thu Oct 2 09:51:06 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (jamess at climax.co.uk) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:51:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crying wolf? Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301854960@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 82081 hermionegallo: I think it's notable that Lupin's bag is old and worn, with "Prof. R. J. Lupin" embossed in gold. The lettering is old too, sorry I don't have the book on hand to quote, but I read that over and over to make sure I read it right. It indicates to me that he's taught before, somewhere, so it's possible that he's got years of experience teaching DADA, and he certainly seems up to the job. Another explanation for the bag, however, could be that his father or grandfather had the same initials and had been a professor. James: When I read that it crossed my mind that something more was going on. But I quickly realised that the text could equally well be describing an old bag that had recently had the name/initials added to it. The bag being old doesn't necessarily mean that the lettering on it was old. As for why he was DADA. Personally I don't see DD as a man who knows everything, but a man who knows how to prepare for a range of eventualities. I suspect Lupin was brought in as DADA teacher not because DD had included him as part of an intricate plan, but because DD instinctively new that having an old school friend of SB around could prove useful. From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 13:01:12 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:01:12 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: <20031002104524.66808.qmail@web86203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82082 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > The big "V" has basicly wasted a year trying to find out what this prophecy said, he has failed. > > He now knows that the MOM copy of it is broken, and no-one heard it. Bellatrix was in the Prophcy Room and knows that Harry does not know it either. Hmmm...just a thought. Perhaps the prophecy is not completely lost. Wonder if Neville's (or anyone else who was present) memory of that moment in the DoM could be place into a pensieve. Although he never heard the actual prophecy, he was present when it broke. In the same way that Harry heard the conversation between James and Sirius in Snape's memory, perhaps Voldemort could revisit Bellatrix's memory by "sidling up" a bit closer to the prophecy as it is broken. Through Harry, we have seen that we can access things from people's memories that were in the general area but they may not have actually heard or seen at the time. :: Entropy :: From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 2 13:31:37 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:31:37 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82083 --- "Nelle Chan" wrote: > --- "n8483483" wrote: > > Does Hagrid have an official wand? Was he really cleared > > of all charges? I thought not but maybe I missed something. > > When he was looking for the giants, he said he was not > > allowed to use magic. > Some readers believe that Hagrid's wand (or what's left of > it) is concealed within his umbrella. You may wish to check > out www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/wands.html (which is part of the > HPfGU faqs, and discusses the matter of Hagrid's wand). Hagrid was cleared of charges after COS, yet no canon reference to him getting a new wand from Ollivanders ... nor further talk of his umbrella, either. The main thing he carries with him is his crossbow or Fang. He may have a wand already but wasn't able to use it among giants since they dispise magic. It would have turned them away instead of attrack them to DD. A wand by itself is of little use without proper classes for using it. Hagrid was expelled well before he faced his OWLS, so never learnt to use a wand to his full potential. He leans more on his underestanding of Magical Creatures instead of duelling. Each book shows a new pet: Fluffy, Aragog, Buckbeak, Blast Ended Skrewts, Thestrals. Hagrid doesn't need any "silly wand waving" to stand tall in the WW. ~aussie~ From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 2 13:43:37 2003 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:43:37 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82084 It is not at all obvious who gets 12 Grimmauld Place now that Sirius has died. He may have made a will, but in the Potterverse it may matter that he was in Azkaban. Maybe the property of condemned prisioners goes to the Ministry. (In colonial New England, the laws of England of the time applied, and the property of executed prisoners was forfeited to the colony.) If the MoM doesn't get the property and Sirius didn't leave a will, what laws of inheritance apply? Not the Laws of England but the Laws of Rowling -- JKR may have some clever and funny law of intestate succession in mind for the Wizarding World. It is also not obvious that the MoM even knows Sirius is dead. Cornelius "I won't believe it unless it is shoved in my face" Fudge didn't see Sirius at all. He wasn't in that area of the MoM when Sirius was fighting and died. And we don't know what DD is going to tell Fudge about what happened since that would be revealing the names of some of the members of the Order. And we don't know if the Death Eaters are talking or whether they will be believed. Bobby Jones From dcyasser at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 14:01:16 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:01:16 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > Hi All, > > I've just re-read the prophecy chapter It doesn't tell > anybody much that they didn't already know. > Hi Dumbledad, First off, what a great post! So funny yet so very well illustrating your points. Sorry I've snipped to pieces to answer. Many in fandom felt the same, uh, disappointment at finally reaching the prophecy,as in "duh!" But guess who hadn't quite figured it out, or hadn't quite *wanted* to: that's right, our boy Harry. Revealing the prophecy to Harry now sets him straight on the path to his dream date with Voldemort, no more wondering what's Voldemort got against me and my family, maybe he'll just forget about me and go away. It's time to concentrate on making sure Harry can and will fulfill the prophecy. The fact that Harry now knows what he is meant to do changes everything. Dumbledad wrote: > Here it is again: > 1) The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches . . . > > 5) he will have power the Dark Lord knows not . . . and > 6) either must die at the hand of the other for > 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . Dumbledad wrote, regarding DD: (6) must have been a terrible realization, but that's > a separate thread (e.g. message 65909). (7) would have been real > news to Dumbledore too, and increases the pressure on him to keep > Harry alive, to teach him very fast, and to develop a huge network > of competent witches and wizards of all ages who are supporting > Harry. > dc: Dumbledore should have been teaching him faster. Now that Harry knows what the rush is, I think there will be some serious extracurricular studying, beyond DA. Dumbledad wrote, regarding Harry. (1) must be good news for Harry ? on each occasion > that he has fought Voldemort he has expected the imbalance of power to lead to his own death. Now he knows it's not so imbalanced. Now, he must have spotted the fact > that Voldemort is repeatedly trying to kill him, it's happened 4 > times before Book 5, so (6) and (7) don't tell him much. > dc: Actually 5, 6 and 7 are great shocks to Harry, because he just hasn't wanted to put 2 + 2 together, and no one else has wanted him to, either. Sure Voldemort wants to kill him, but as far as Harry knows, it's a revenge motive, and all his Voldemort-related encounters are fallout from something that happened when he was 1, not a prelude to his future. He argues point 5 with DD "I haven't any powers he hasn't got..." (US hardcover p.843). As for 6 and 7, they change his entire outlook. "An invisible barrier separated him from the rest of the world. He was - he had always been - a marked man. It was just that he had never really understood what that meant..." (Us hardcover pp 855-856) Harry's got a boatload of brooding to do, but not much time to feel sorry for himself or anyone else. The point of the prophecy is to set him in motion, so fasten your seatbelts. And about Voldemort, well, what do you do when your plans keep crashing and "Killing Harry Potter for Dummies" doesn't help? You call tech support. I expect LV'll be on-hold listening to muzak for much of book 6, but once he gets connected - watch out. cheers dc From o_caipora at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 14:30:21 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:30:21 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82086 Message 75604 will drop you into the midst of a recent thread on this, with a list of links to older threads on the same topic. "Robert Jones" wrote: > Maybe the property of condemned > prisioners goes to the Ministry. (In colonial New England, the laws > of England of the time applied, and the property of executed > prisoners was forfeited to the colony.) Interesting. IIRC this happens in David Copperfield; his benefactor returns to England in defiance of the terms of his exile, and forfeits his fortune. > If the MoM doesn't get the property and Sirius didn't leave a will, > what laws of inheritance apply? Not the Laws of England but the > Laws of Rowling -- JKR may have some clever and funny law of > intestate succession in mind for the Wizarding World. Literature may be a better guide than law; Rowling is certainly more familiar with Austen and Dickens than with Black. Entailment is old in law and literature, turning up in the Canterbury Tales. England has a tradition of primogeniture and male inheritance. Scotland AFAIK has for centuries given greater respect to women's right to inheirit. Two clues that entailment is in the wings are that a) Sirius inherited the house despite his mother's intense dislike of him, which argues she didn't have the power to disinherit; and b) Rowling so carefully showed us that Draco is the closest male heir. She could have had the family tree show Draco as a relative without making him the closest male heir. She didn't. I smell plot twist. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Oct 2 15:22:28 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 15:22:28 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > My main problem is that it appears really lame. It doesn't tell > anybody much that they didn't already know. > that "the knowledge of how to destroy" Harry is what "he has been > seeking so assiduously since his return". I.e. Voldemort is hunting > for a book called "Killing Harry Potter for Dummies". Instead he's > told by the prophecy's additional clauses that he's failed to kill > Harry already (4), that Harry has mysterious powers (5), and that he > needs to get a move on and kill Harry (6) and (7). Wow ? how lame is > that? It's probably lucky Voldemort didn't get the orb for he'd >have to take it back and demanded a refund! > > I haven't had a chance to trawl back through all the interesting > posts about the prophecy, so it may well be that these issues have > already been covered in full. If that's the case please please > please just point me to the relevant posts. Jen: Thank you for the funny post, Dumbledad! I was chuckling all the way through, remembering my own "And?...this is it?" first reaction to the Prophecy after reading 800+ pages to get there. For myself, I've decided that the content of the Prophecy wasn't the main point. There has been debate that some words are missing, or there's a trick to it and "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives . . ." actually means something different from what it appears to mean. (See below for one thread--I couldn't find the others). But the part that was a revelation to me is the *existence* of the Prophecy at all, and how it ties together three ideas that before (to my mind anyway) existed separately: 1) Voldemort targeted Harry and somehow transferred powers to him instead of killing him. 2) Lily died to save Harry and provided the blood protection 3) Dumbledore arranged for Harry to stay at the Dursleys until he could safely arrive at Hogwarts. Up until the point of the Prophecy and Dumbledore's explanation, we never had anything substantial tying these three things together, except our guesses that they were somehow intertwined. Now we know for sure there was/is a *PLAN*. We debate what the plan is, when it started and where it's going, but we know for sure that these three events were a result of Dumbledore and Voldemort both having knowledge (at least some) of the Prophecy, and that knowledge directed their actions. That's pretty simplistic, but it's where I am at the moment in regards to the Prophecy. Next week, who knows?!? There were some threads discussing the actual wording of the Prophecy back in July and August. I found one in August starting here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74922 Jen From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Oct 2 15:35:04 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:35:04 +0100 Subject: Crying wolf Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82088 Laura: I don't see the point of this alleged plot. And why Remus? Kneasy: First, a shortish digression. I can understand you feeling disgruntled, what with your favourite characters getting worked over. That's a result of the inevitable speculation inherent in an unfinished series. Take comfort in the thought that you may yet be able to say "I told you so!" Meanwhile the fully paid up members of the Paranoid League of Conspiracy Theorists are having a field day. It's no secret (I hope not, anyway) that for months I've been a part of a smallish chorus muttering darkly about Dumbledore. He Is Definitely Up To Something. Now many posters have taken this to mean that I think he is evil; but I don't think I've ever said that and I didn't intend my posts to say it either. Others may have gone further; what I have said boils down to: 1.He has planned for the long term i.e. to the end of the final book or further, from the beginning. 2.He is necessarily cold-blooded in his planning. 3.He is willing to accept the deaths of innocents when he feels it is necessary. 4.He only passes out information when it suits his purpose and this information may be truncated or misleading. 5.He is still holding back key information. 6.He is not willing to divulge his strategy to anyone. 7.He sees Harry as a tool, a device, a means to his end, the destruction of Voldemort. Harry!Tool needed sharpening and tempering. 8.If push comes to shove, anybody, including Harry or himself, is as disposable as Lily was, so long as it leads to Voldemort's destruction. (If Lily didn't die, Harry would have no protection.) Just the sort of leader needed in the fight for the survival of a *society* rather than just some of the individuals in it. What it comes down to is Puppetmaster!Dumbledore, or a chess player moving his pieces around the board, winning some, losing some; very different to the kind, gentle softy that is his facade. The problem with theories is collecting sufficient evidence that will provide support. Unfortunately PM!DD is not going to do a Baldric and explain his cunning plan, so we have to look for indirect or circumstantial evidence. Hence any anomalous action, especially by those associated with DD, is closely scrutinised. The interesting thing (to me) is that the closer we look, the more detailed the dissection and analysis, the more puzzling some of the episodes seem. We hope that this is intended and not the result of JKR having an off-day every now and again. That would be a tragedy. I think everyone is in agreement that though the series is named for Harry, the key figure is probably Dumbledore. He's the one with the plan, he's the one pulling the strings. The one thing you are unlikely to see on the site is a nice, neat package, tied up with pink ribbon, explaining exactly what he's up to. We don't know - yet. We're guessing, speculating, conjecturing, hypothesizing, theorising, in the sure and certain belief that our character reading is true, though it may vary somewhat between posters. Meanwhile the name of the game is to identify anomalies, where possible link them to other known action or inaction and to try and build a coherent pattern leading to a comprehensive Theory of Everything. We know this exists. JKR has told us so. So far, only JKR holds the secret, so it's possible, probable, that some of the ideas are interesting but off beam. Only time will tell. Other posters may find this irritating or an object of scorn. So be it. I for one will stiffen the lip, summon up the suspicions and imitate the aspect of a bloodhound. "Come, Watson! The game's afoot!" Phew. Right. Exposition over. Passing on to your objections... >Laura: (1) As long as Sirius is in Azkaban, he can be no threat to Fudge. Virtually everyone in the WW thinks he's guilty (and those who know better aren't talking). When someone's in Azkaban for life, they're as good as dead. So that's the safest place for Sirius if he has information you don't want to become public. Or if you never want to see him again for personal reasons. Moreover, Fudge has no reason to believe that Sirius was planning to escape for 12 years-because he wasn't. He says that he managed to stay sane, but he doesn't say that he wanted to escape until he saw the clipping. Are you saying that DD set Fudge up to perform that little slip-Sirius-the-newspaper charade? Why? If DD wanted Sirius out, he surely could have come up with a better method (and a smarter henchman) than that. And I have to believe that Fudge would have fought DD every step of the way. He doesn't stand up to DD often, but when it comes to his job and his reputation, he'll put up quite a battle. > Kneasy: I've previously posted that where Fudge's instructions come from is problematical. Let's be paranoid. He has connections with Malfoy who has already involved himself with doing dirty work for Voldy in CoS. Is he following orders or using his initiative? Fudge is no friend to Harry; why not be helpful and get rid of the little pest? Sirius is not a danger to Fudge while he is in Azkaban. He is if he is out and talking and folk get the idea that Fudge was instrumental in his escape. If Sirius is out and heading for Harry and Hogwarts, Fudge has justification for letting loose the Dementors. Dementors who, at that time, followed Ministry instructions. Three times (the train, the Quidditch match, after the Shrieking Shack), Dementors showed an unhealthy interest in Harry. At the match Harry sees Sirius!Dog in the stands, but a hundred Dementors stand on the pitch and look up at Harry. After S.S. Dementors ignore Sirius and home in on Harry. Sirius may have passed out, but I'd expect that Dementors have known that happen to victims before. I doubt that would affect their aim. Why is Harry their favourite target? Others like Talisman, seem to see DD and Fudge as hand in glove; I won't go that far, but it is helpful to both to have Sirius out of Azkaban. Fudge as above; DD has a different motive. He sees him as a necessary emotional anchor for Harry - when all else fails, he'll believes he can rely on Sirius. He has no-one else he can cling to. He needs *somebody*. DD does not want Sirius dead. there was no need for him to suggest the Timeturner except to facilitate the escape of Sirius on Buckbeak. Harry had already been saved by the Patronus in 'realtime'. No need to mess with it. He could have left Sirius to Fudge and gone on his way whistling. He didn't. He strengthened the emotional ties between Sirius and Harry instead. Between DD and Fudge we have a unity of action in springing Sirius. From then on their aims diverge. But I wouldn't be surprised if DD knew about Fudges' plan (via Snape from Malfoy?) and decided to ride his coat-tails until he could subvert it. >Laura: (2) Remus as bait? Either he was in on this alleged plot or he wasn't. snip If he wasn't in on the plot, why would he be effective as bait? snip > Kneasy: Watch my hands, nothing up my sleeves. Ready? Off we go. First the bones. DD has trouble getting a DADA teacher. Sirius escapes. Lupin, who was a very close friend of Sirius and of Harry's parents, is available. Lupin is appointed. Now some flesh. DD knows that Sirius has no reason to hurt Harry. The reverse is not true. Harry believes, along with everyone else not in the know, that Sirius killed his parents. Does DD know about Scabbers!Peter? I'd be surprised if he didn't. Scabbers has been at Hogwarts longer than Ron. Scabbers, a rat. At a school where students may bring a cat or a toad or an owl. DD must, at the very least, suspect that Sirius is innocent. So, recruit someone known to all parties, drop the word "Sirius may be innocent. Peter is still around. Make sure Harry doesn't do anything silly." Remus would be overjoyed. His friend, innocent! That's all Remus needs to be told, but it's more than enough. Why else disarm Harry as his *first* action on entering the Shack? How else can he put words into Sirius' mouth? How else could he have got the information that makes his actions logical? Similarly, Sirius is less likely to attack Remus than any except Harry. He no longer believes Remus is the spy. He is also likely to listen to Remus. If he runs into major problems he might turn to Lupin for help. Who else could he turn to if things got really bad? At the very least Lupin won't shoot from the hip and he might have a chance to explain. Neat and tidy, no? Snape is something other. He doesn't like Sirius. He wasn't acting. He'd be quite happy to see Sirius go down the tubes. His sole function might have been in passing Fudges plan on to DD. For the whole thing to work only DD and Remus need know anything extra to that which the whole WW believes. Cunning old Dumbledore! Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 13:14:50 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:14:50 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > My main problem is that it (the prophecy) appears really lame. It doesn't tell anybody much that they didn't already know. > Here it is again: > 1) The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches . . . > 2) born to those who have thrice defied him, > 3) born as the seventh month dies . . . and > 4) the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but > 5) he will have power the Dark Lord knows not . . . and > 6) either must die at the hand of the other for > 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . > 8) the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies . . . > > There are four main stake-holders involved in the prophecy: the > readers, Dumbledore, Harry, and Voldemort, so let's approach the > prophecy from the perspective of each of these stake-holders in turn. Ap: I'll follow your lead and address what I see as the impact for each of the stakeholders. Readers -- "I know that Harry is powerful and is destined for great things, after all each book is titled "Harry Potter and the". So (1) isn't news." You're right; I pretty much had this prophecy figured out before this book. However, that doesn't lessen the thrill for me. Dumbledore -- ". . .(2) and(3) give him big clues as to where to find his newest and greatest ally. . .(7) would have been real news to Dumbledore too, and increases the pressure on him to keep Harry alive, to teach him very fast, and to develop a huge network of competent witches and wizards of all ages who are supporting Harry." Again, I agree with you. Dumbledore now has a weapon in what must have been a seemingly hopeless battle against Voldemort. I'm guessing there must have been other efforts to vanquish V, all unsuccessful. The prophecy gives D hope that there can be an ultimate victory over V, and so he can now develop a plan to bring about that victory. Harry -- "Now, he must have spotted the fact that Voldemort is repeatedly trying to kill him, it's happened 4 times before Book 5, so (6) and (7) don't tell him much." I think the prophecy does tell Harry a lot; in fact, I think it alters the course of his life. Up to this point, he's viewed himself as a normal person (more or less!), making career plans, having a crush on a girl, etc. However, after hearing the prophecy, he realizes he is "a marked man. It was just that he had never really understood what that meant . . . . it was still very hard to believe as he sat here that his life must include, or end in, murder." (OOP, p. 856, US) Finally, Voldemort -- "It's probably lucky Voldemort didn't get the orb for he'd have to take it back and demanded a refund!" This is where I differ. I think the prophecy has huge implications for Voldemort. For one thing, it tells him who he really has to fear -- Harry. But we are told several times throughout the books that Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort has ever feared. Even during the scene in the atrium of the MOM, when he and Harry are face to face, Bellatrix is trying to warn Voldemort that Dumbledore is in the building (p. 812, US). Voldemort, in his arrogance, again sells Harry short, dismissing him by saying, "You have irked me too often, for too long." (p. 813) (This attitude also shows in GOF, Chap. 33.) I don't think you would say your mortal enemy has "irked" you! Voldemort is going to kill Harry simply for revenge, not realizing Harry's power. Voldemort seems to think that Harry survived the original curse only because his mother died to save him and that in the encounters since then, Harry has been simply lucky. His attention is focused on Dumbledore, and that's how Dumbledore wants it. As long as he can be a decoy, Harry will have time to develop and learn and eventually to have the chance to carry out his "mission." That's why so much effort was put into protecting the prophecy. (IMO!) From tctruffin at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 13:54:33 2003 From: tctruffin at yahoo.com (Todd C. Truffin) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 13:54:33 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" wrote: > It is not at all obvious who gets 12 Grimmauld Place now that Sirius > has died. Bobby lists a few very good reasons why the inheritance of 12 Grimmauld Place is unclear. I would add that another sticky in the wicket is that it is unclear just how many people know that Sirious was HP's godfather and what weight that carries in the wizarding world. In the muggle world the position of godparent doesn't usually carry with it any special forces of inheritence. The OoP may not be all that keen in revealing to the general populous HP's connection with Sirious. Todd Truffin From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 2 13:50:40 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:50:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia's protection of Harry (aside to Ancient Magic vs Dark Magic) References: Message-ID: <001801c388ee$10d9a980$f8e879a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82091 > -Lisa > > I must ask (although it may have been addressed elsewhere-I am a newbie here) why > LV doesn't just kill Petunia. If the blood of Harry's mother no longer "dwells" at Privet > Drive, wouldn't the ancient magic be negated in this case? > Iggy: Well, technically, his mother's blood also "dwells" in Dudley. Also, part of the protection may extend to Petunia... If she's killed, Harry may be harmed... Petunia's death itself would bring harm to Harry... since it would remove the protection. Harry's protection may extend ( to a point) to Petunia because it prevents harm to Harry... See the above comment (rinse, repeat as necessary until comprehension is achieved. *grin*) Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Comfort the Disturbed. Disturb the comfortable." -- yet another bumper sticker in Iggy's collection From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 2 14:04:12 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:04:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom Riddle (was: Voldemort's name) References: Message-ID: <001b01c388ee$11d3e800$f8e879a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82092 > Marci: > > I have to disagree on the *sliver* of humanity that may exist in the > old Tom Riddle. This is the boy who unleashed the Basilisk from the > Chamber of Secrets, framed Hagrid for it, knows he's responsible for > killing a girl, and murders his father and grandparents. > > I have to say the DD calls Voldemort Tom because he knows who he > was/is. And I think there are very few Dark wizards who know this > information. In the DE's, this includes Lucius and Peter. Most of > them don't have a clue that they follow a halfblood. > Iggy: With the Malfoy fanaticism about purebloods, I don't think Lucius knows... otherwise, I honestly don't think the Malfoys would support him if they found out. Part of me also thinks that it's significant that DD said LV's real name in the same room as Bellatrix. I think she actually DID hear his name, even though it hasn't registered in her mind during OotP. (To my thinking, she'll realize that DD was addressing LV as "Thomas" and will look into it for some reason. When some of the DE find out LV is a half-blood, it will weaken his support base.) Just my observations. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Blood is thicker than water. and MUCH tastier!" -- ABS FIRECAT (Another Bumper Sticker For Iggy's Rather Expansive Collection And Tastes.) From lisaeckleycocchiarale at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 14:12:59 2003 From: lisaeckleycocchiarale at yahoo.com (Lisa Cocchiarale) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:12:59 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name (taking his power away) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82093 Martha quotes: One last point, then. From UK edition, page718: " 'You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?' called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. 'Above such brutality, are you?' 'We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom,' Dumbledore said calmly [...] 'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit -' " Martha says: "It's all about power, I tell you." Lisa (me)here: I couldn't agree more with Martha's take on DD's actions and LV's reactions in this scene, and had to giggle. DD's words reduce LV to a tantrum-throwing 4 yr old (albeit a rather more deadly one). The despised childhood name incenses him,and he loses control. But I have to ask: is DD imprudent (irresponsible, even?) in choosing NOT to kill LV on the spot while (presumably) he could? LV's death in the battle at DOM would no doubt be a HUGE blow to the DEs, no? > From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 2 14:11:59 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:11:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's name References: <00e701c38852$0ce5fa00$06560043@hppav> Message-ID: <002e01c388ef$26802740$f8e879a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82094 >From: "Eric Oppen" > I've had a theory for some time now that Lord V. is actually a front-man for > someone else. A lot of his behavior just doesn't make much sense. > You bring up some good points. Here's an interesting one for you... We've already seen that Tom was the Heir of Slytherin... what if he's also the reincarnation of another wizard? What if he's scared of DD not because he's challenged him in the past as Riddle, but because he's the reincarnation of Grindelwald and DD destroyed him in a previous life. (And he knows it somewhere inside...) Anyone know what Grindelwald's goals were? Just another odd idea here... Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Get a PAST life too!" -- ABS FIRECAT From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 2 16:05:11 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:05:11 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82095 --- "o_caipora" wrote: > "Robert Jones" wrote: > > Maybe the property of condemned prisioners goes to the Ministry. > > (In colonial New England, the laws of England of the > > time applied, and the property of executed prisoners was > > forfeited to the colony.) > > Interesting. IIRC this happens in David Copperfield; his benefactor > returns to England in defiance of the terms of his exile, and > forfeits his fortune. > BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT ... the WW despises those Muggle laws. That "forfeiting" of property was abused in New England when land owning neighbours were accused of being wizards or witches. Even when Sirius was a fresh escapee, he could access his Galleons in gringotts to buy Harry a Firebolt. > England has a tradition of primogeniture and male inheritance. > Scotland AFAIK has for centuries given greater respect to women's > right to inheirit. > > Two clues ... a) Sirius inherited ...despite his mother's dislike > of him, ...she didn't have the power to disinherit; and b) Rowling > so carefully showed us that Draco is the closest male heir. > > She could have had the family tree show Draco as a relative without > making him the closest male heir. She didn't. I smell plot twist. - Or if not the next male, Kretcher's hero, Bellatrix Lestrange may move in ... ~aussie~ From lbiles at flash.net Thu Oct 2 16:33:11 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:33:11 -0000 Subject: Spy!Remus/(was Re: Crying wolf?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Besides, Sirius thought that *Remus* was the spy. I've seen this thought come up over time in a few different threads and it always confuses me. In rereading PoA however many times I've done so now I have never managed to come away with this impression. What is it that makes people think that Sirius suspects Remus of being the betrayer instead of Pettigrew? leb From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 2 16:45:19 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:45:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's name (taking his power away) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031002164519.613.qmail@web86208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82097 Lisa Cocchiarale wrote: Martha quotes: One last point, then. From UK edition, page718: " 'You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?' called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. 'Above such brutality, are you?' 'We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom,' Dumbledore said calmly [...] 'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit -' " Martha says: "It's all about power, I tell you." Lisa (me)here: I couldn't agree more with Martha's take on DD's actions and LV's reactions in this scene, and had to giggle. DD's words reduce LV to a tantrum-throwing 4 yr old (albeit a rather more deadly one). The despised childhood name incenses him,and he loses control. But I have to ask: is DD imprudent (irresponsible, even?) in choosing NOT to kill LV on the spot while (presumably) he could? LV's death in the battle at DOM would no doubt be a HUGE blow to the DEs, no? U_P_D I believe that DD only has the ability to disrupt LV to the same extent as Harry's effect on him when he was one year old. This would give (mabe) 5 or 10 years for Harry to gain in magical power. Sounds good? We keep getting told how old and worn Dumbledor is looking, would he still be around at LV's rebirth? This could be a big problem because as well as what he does for Harry he keeps the MOM in order etc. What it is that HP has that will be the final downfall of LV we don't know. But it is quite possible that he has it now and we won't find out what it is untill book 7 Udder pen Dragon Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 2 16:45:19 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:45:19 -0000 Subject: Foreign DADA Teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82098 --- "entropymail" wrote: > ---"Steve" wrote: > > --- "Hagrid" wrote: > > > ...edited... who can DD spare and trust to be the new Defence > > > Against Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts? > > > > > > JOB OPENNING: > > > One option, ...is to import a witch or wizard from > > > away from all the DE influence - from outside of Europe. > > Personally, I'd like to see someone imported into the DADA position > from Salem, Mass. ... so our new American DADA teacher could > even be a distant relative; have a bit of a Malfoy/Black/Potter pedigree! > > :: Entropy :: Some suggest Asian, Middle East, Africa or Europe. Rowlings may want to be careful about accents and offending readers from some parts of the world - but UK usually don't mind offending Australians and New Zealanders. We a long time rivals in sports, and long time allys in battle. My main reservation about other countries is: - how good their English is for teaching a complicated topic. (Does it sound like I am bias for Australia again? ... lol) - & I didn't suggest a European Professor because Voldemort was active in Europe for some time, as was his predecessor, Grindlewald, from what I understand. Wouldn't JKR have fun with a DADA prof that was like Crocodile Dundee or maybe Xena. (Those actors would suit the movie budget too ... lol) ~aussie~ From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 2 17:03:13 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:03:13 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: <002e01c388ef$26802740$f8e879a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82099 --- "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > > > >From: "Eric Oppen" > > I've had a theory for some time now that Lord V. is actually a > front-man for > > someone else. A lot of his behavior just doesn't make much sense. > > > We've already seen that Tom was the Heir of Slytherin... what if > he's also the reincarnation of ... Grindelwald and DD destroyed > him in a previous life. (And he knows it somewhere inside...) > > Anyone know what Grindelwald's goals were? Reincarnation wouldn't work in JKR's WW. Too many ghosts haven't come back while others whisper beyond the veil. Besides, Tom Riddle was alive and at Hogwarts when Grindelwald was defeated. Grindelwald would need a new born after his death for reincarnation to work. However, an Ancient magic may be used to merge a strong Dark Wizard with a willing youth. Riddle may still be the vehicle for Grindelwald .... and more. Grindelwald was "DEFEATED" (DD's Choc Frog Card), not killed. Tom Riddle disappeared in Eastern Europe for some time (around where Grindelwald was active?) before emerging as LV. If the Dark Wizard from 1945 could merge to prolong his life, why not take this to the extreme? Salazar Slytherin LEFT Hogwarts, but there was no mention of how or if he died. Since Nicholas Flammel could survive for centuries, why couldn't Slytherin himself be possessing his 25th victom in his quest for long life and power? ~aussie~ From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 2 17:06:47 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:06:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031002170647.42496.qmail@web86205.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82100 "Todd C. Truffin" wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" wrote: > It is not at all obvious who gets 12 Grimmauld Place now that Sirius > has died. then Todd Truffin Wrote Bobby lists a few very good reasons why the inheritance of 12 Grimmauld Place is unclear. I would add that another sticky in the wicket is that it is unclear just how many people know that Sirious was HP's godfather and what weight that carries in the wizarding world. In the muggle world the position of godparent doesn't usually carry with it any special forces of inheritence. The OoP may not be all that keen in revealing to the general populous HP's connection with Sirious. U_P_D Shurely the question of who inherits 12GP is irrelevent as it was given to the OotP for their use. To this end only order members and a few carefully selected others can find it. Ergo even if Draco etc were to inherit it, it can not be found by them. Also it seems that order members can stay there if they want or need to. So nothing in its status needs to change, it will probibly carry on being used as it has been. Anyway for anyone to inherit anything of Sirius's he has to be certified dead and with Fudge in charge how long will that take Udder pen Dragon Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamess at climax.co.uk Thu Oct 2 16:02:25 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:02:25 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's name Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301854CB6@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 82101 Iggy McSnurd: What if he's scared of DD not because he's challenged him in the past as Riddle, but because he's the reincarnation of Grindelwald and DD destroyed him in a previous life. (And he knows it somewhere inside...) James: The Grindelwald incident happened after Riddle was at hogwarts. Unless this was some kind of paralel incarnation this can't be the case. I expect LV is scared of DD simply because he was the Wizard who stoped the last guy who tried to do what LV is doing. From Yahtzee63 at aol.com Thu Oct 2 16:58:14 2003 From: Yahtzee63 at aol.com (Yahtzee63 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 12:58:14 -0400 Subject: Quick question re: phoenix life cycles Message-ID: <0766BE05.65DAD00B.02A5D73B@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82102 Traditionally, I know, the phoenix is supposed to live for 100 years before dying in flames and being reborn. But is this canonical in the Potterverse? I can't remember whether JKR mentions it or not. To me, it seems as though Dumbledore has seen Fawkes go through a few cycles, and as Dumbledore's not as old as Nicholas Flamel, that would seem to suggest that Fawkes dies/is reborn far more frequently. But all my flipping through the first two books has yielded no answers -- maybe I'm just missing it. Can anyone clarify this for me? Please feel free to email me offlist, if you have the answer -- Yahtzee From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 2 17:26:38 2003 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:26:38 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82103 Hi All, > --- In HPforGrownups Dumbledad (me) wrote: > > > My main problem is that it (the prophecy) appears really lame. It > doesn't tell anybody much that they didn't already know. > > > Here it is again: > > > 1) The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches . . . > > 2) born to those who have thrice defied him, > > 3) born as the seventh month dies . . . and --- Then augustinapeach wrote: > This is where I differ. I think the prophecy has huge implications > for Voldemort. For one thing, it tells him who he really has to > fear -- Harry. > His attention is focused on Dumbledore, and that's how Dumbledore > wants it. As long as he can be a decoy, Harry will have time to > develop and learn and eventually to have the chance to carry out > his "mission." That's why so much effort was put into protecting > the prophecy. Your explanation does fit with Voldemort's attitude to Harry whenever they meet. But, before OotP commences, Voldemort already knows the first three clauses of the prophecy. From them he deduced that the one with the power to vanquish him is the baby Harry, and so sets off to kill him. He fails. He then tries three more times to kill Harry (though he's not aware of the attempt he made in CoS) and fails each time. So by the beginning of OotP he knows exactly who "the one" mentioned in the prophecy is. That's the reason I think that the additional clauses of the prophecy tell him so little that's new. Voldemort doesn't need to know that Harry is "the one", he needs to know how to kill Harry. Cheers, Dumbledad. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Oct 2 17:28:51 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:28:51 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > Hi All, > > I've just re-read the prophecy chapter and I'm still hopelessly > confused. Help! > > My main problem is that it appears really lame. It doesn't tell > anybody much that they didn't already know. > > > 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . > A while back I speculated that this one stretches a bit further than you've cast your net. The two of 'neither' could be James and Lily, the 'other', Harry. So it would be foretold that if Harry is to survive, James and Lily must die. Helps with the elimination of Neville, too. His parents survived. The rest of the posters were overwhelmed - by apathy! If you're interested it was 'That Damn Prophecy - an alternative take.' (75081) Kneasy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 17:32:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:32:31 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > --- "Nelle Chan" wrote: > > --- "n8483483" wrote: > > > Does Hagrid have an official wand? Was he really cleared > > > of all charges? ...edited... > Hagrid: > > Hagrid was cleared of charges after COS, yet no canon reference to > him getting a new wand from Ollivanders ... nor further talk of his > umbrella, either. > bboy_mn: It's my believe that while it was proven and accepted that Hagrid was innocent of the charges for which he was expelled, they have not yet held a hearing to make that determination official nor have they expunged that from his record. Also, the criminal charges would have to be overturned by the court while his expulsion would have to be officially overturned by the Hogwarts Board of Governors. So, it is generally accepted that he didn't do it, but it hasn't been made a matter of official public record yet. I think the official reversal will have to happen before Hagrid can get a new wand. Also, I think the only reason this hasn't happened is that Hagrid lives a somewhat sheltered life at Hogwarts. He is isolated from the eyes of the law, and is allowed to do magic in connection with his job and that's about all he needs. > Hagrid/Aussie: > > A wand by itself is of little use without proper classes for using > it. Hagrid was expelled well before he faced his OWLS, > ...edited... > ~aussie~ bboy_mn: True Hagrid was expelled in his third year, but he has also spent 50 years living and working at the best school of magic in Europe. In 50 years, I think he might have learned a thing or two. Also, we see Hagrid using magic all the time; engorging the pumpkins to the size of tool sheds for example. That's his advantage while living at Hogwarts; Dumbledore and the staff (and I suspect the town's folk) conviniently look the other way when it comes to Hagrid doing magic. Personally, I want them to have the offical hearing and expunge his record of all these charges, that way Hagrid can become an offical practicing wizard again. Just a thought. bboy_mn From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Oct 2 17:54:54 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:54:54 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Grimmauld Place Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82106 Sorry to be pedantic, but it is Pip in Great Expectations, not David Copperfield, who loses his inheritance when Magwich is arrested as an illegally returned convict. Sylvia (who loves Dickens even more than JKR) From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 2 17:59:24 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:59:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can LV get the prophecy. Was : Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031002175924.44946.qmail@web86207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82107 entropymail wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > The big "V" has basicly wasted a year trying to find out what this prophecy said, he has failed. > > He now knows that the MOM copy of it is broken, and no-one heard it. Bellatrix was in the Prophcy Room and knows that Harry does not know it either. then Entropy wrote Hmmm...just a thought. Perhaps the prophecy is not completely lost. Wonder if Neville's (or anyone else who was present) memory of that moment in the DoM could be place into a pensieve. Although he never heard the actual prophecy, he was present when it broke. In the same way that Harry heard the conversation between James and Sirius in Snape's memory, perhaps Voldemort could revisit Bellatrix's memory by "sidling up" a bit closer to the prophecy as it is broken. Through Harry, we have seen that we can access things from people's memories that were in the general area but they may not have actually heard or seen at the time. U_P_D IMO a pensive works by recording what you might have memory of, what you have seen or what you might of heard. Bellatrix was a long way from where the sphere shattered, therefore if JKR does not want her to hear it she won't. IMO To put a memory into a pensive the holder of the memory must think of the memory and it can be extracted. If LV wants the memory from Nevill he has to persuade him to think of what he wants. If this was that easy there would be little use for truth serum. So IMO if JKR wants LV to have the prophecy its easy, if not its very unlightly. Udder pen Dragon Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 2 18:01:15 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 18:01:15 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name (taking his power away) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Cocchiarale" wrote: > Martha quotes: > One last point, then. From UK edition, page718: > > " 'You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?' called Voldemort, his > scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. 'Above such > brutality, are you?' > > 'We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom,' > Dumbledore said calmly [...] 'Merely taking your life would not > satisfy me, I admit -' " > > Martha says: "It's all about power, I tell you." > > Lisa (me)here: I couldn't agree more with Martha's take on DD's > actions and LV's reactions in this scene, and had to giggle. DD's > words reduce LV to a tantrum-throwing 4 yr old (albeit a rather more > deadly one). The despised childhood name incenses him,and he loses > control. I left out the exchange above. My take on it was different. LV and DD are locked in a life-or-death struggle. DD's pronouncement above implied implacable hatred and determination to destroy LV at all costs - which seemed almost out of character for the normally kind DD. It was a declaration of war, not a tactic in psychological warfare. And I have not seen anywhere any sign that Voldemort gets angry over the use of his childhood name in that scene. He is afraid of DD and angry that he disrupted his plan to kill Harry. He tried to kill DD and almost succeeds - if it were not for the statues and Fawkes he would have done it - so let's not underestimate him. But nowhere is he losing his cool or pretending that the name does not apply to him. > But I have to ask: is DD imprudent (irresponsible, even?) in choosing > NOT to kill LV on the spot while (presumably) he could? LV's death in > the battle at DOM would no doubt be a HUGE blow to the DEs, no? Not at all. There are two issues here. I doubt that DD will perform an unforgivable curse under any circumstance. It is possible that to succeed you must be an evil person in the first place (as Bellatrix implies) - in which case he would not have succeeded anyway. The second point is that we know that Voldemort is immune to death in the normal way. If he gets put on suspended animation again, how long will it be before he finds another way of capturing Harry or perhaps will even figure the hole in his original scheme (what caused DD's gleam in GoF) and revive himself in a way that makes him more powerfull than Harry and without that fatal flaw (whatever it is). DD knows he cannot vanquish Voldemort - that's according to the prophecy - and that it is Harry's future task. He also knows that Voldemort in his current form is vulnerable to Harry's (unknown to us) powers. In addition, he finally has the chance to demonstrate that Voldemort is indeed back (remember that at the beginning of their battle, two statues go to raise the alarm, and so he knows aurors are on their way). Had he killed him at that point, the world will continue to think that the whole thing was a haux. Salit From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 18:02:48 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 18:02:48 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82109 I had a bit of a hissy fit and just didn't quote anything at all. It had gotten too "snippy" in more ways than one; refer please, if you're interested, back upthread to message #82061. Too many dots to connect? Not for me. I just thought, well, Peter's alive. Sirius was supposed to have murdered him along with a dozen muggles; if Peter didn't die that day, then what else isn't true? With Sirius' escape, I would have expected Lupin to be mulling over everything concerning Sirius' "crimes," having old doubts anew and entertaining all sorts of theories. They were true friends. But while "everybody knew" Sirius was a criminal, Lupin, as a marginalized member of the WW, was barely keeping himself together; there wasn't really anything he could do except go along--until, suddenly, there he was all at once face to face with both his old friend (quite an emotional catalyst) and some evidence to the contrary (Peter's presence) in the matter of that mass murder charge. We know he had some lingering doubts about Sirius' guilt, or at least was experiencing some denial/avoidance; otherwise, why didn't he go to Dumbledore with the information that Sirius could be using animagus form? It's perfectly plausible to me that Lupin filled in the rest about Peter's betrayal without prior knowledge. (Think of it this way, for a handy illustration: it's like one of us encountering a bit of new canon or reframing an old one; "suddenly" we're convinced that MD or BA or whatnot is true after all.) One bit of information can easily change one's viewpoint dramatically, especially if there have been even vague theories percolating in the old cranium out of some desire to deny the accepted "wisdom" on an issue. (We may not go down those mental pathways with Lupin; but if any one of my true friends were accused of such heinous crimes, I'd entertain doubt, denial, and the most barely plausible counter- theories until hell froze over. If the heinous crime were against another true friend, I might even be silent on the subject.) I think Lupin spent years with part of his mind poised, consciously or not, on the edge of that particular epiphany.) In other words, I think Lupin's acceptance of and belief in Sirius' guilt was actually only an overlay and that on a deeper level he had never stopped believing Sirius was innocent. I don't believe there was any legilimency in play here, either. I think there was some of that "sixth sense" you sometimes develop with close friends that allows you to finish their sentences for them. If you're close enough, long enough, people think you have telepathy: you know each other that well. And I think many of us have had the experience of reuniting with someone we expected to have some awkwardness with after a long separation only to find that "it was as if no time at all had passed." (I put this in quotes because it's so true it's almost become a clich?.) The simplest next step logically for Lupin (IMO) once Peter's death was proven false seems to me to be that Sirius was altogether innocent; and the only other likely culprit was Peter, who was a was a rat animagus. Ergo, and using Occam's Razor...(I can't remember: did Lupin know Ron had a pet rat? Sirius' pointing at Ron might have been a lot more information (picture paints a thousand words-like), if Lupin had that one bit of the picture already. But I don't *need* that to be true to find the scenario true on its face.) As for Sirius' escape, I think his explanation was the truth as he knew it. I think the dementors were biding their time, waiting for their "natural ally," Voldemort, to come back to power. (How else did the DE's in OoP escape, if the dementors didn't let them walk out as a vote in favor of the Dark Lord?) I think it's likely that the dementors were somewhat lenient/sloppy with Sirius because they hoped he might take care of Harry for LV. It would also explain why the DE's who "escaped" in OoP don't seem more incapacitated; they're not much crazier than they'd have been going in, IMO. It also might explain the difference between Azkaban's effect on Hagrid as opposed to their effect on Sirius. Whatever else Hagrid might have done (in the dementors' supposed opinions), he's clearly on Dumbledore's side; witness his ire whenever anyone in the vicinity speaks of Dumbledore derogatorily. (I can easily imagine him doing so during the "intake" process at Azkaban; remember, Dumbledore's suspension is very fresh in his mind. It also might be that Hagrid muttered to himself, trying to keep his spirits up, "Dumbledore'll get to the bottom of this real soon now.") Dumbledore is very clearly not on Voldemort's fan list, no more so than is Harry. The dementors would have had no compunction in torturing Hagrid. This also explains why the difference in Sirius' "resistance" of the dementors later; he had shown himself not to be an LV ally, or at least was showing no inclination to threaten Harry (the old "if you're not part of the solution..." adage). In addition, if he *was* allowed to escape in the hopes he would remove Harry, his ostensible loyalties aside, he (at the very least) had failed to accomplish the *task* of taking out Harry, and could be food. Nor do I see a conflict between Bathilda Bagshot's automatic, traffic control-like MoM citation in response to the hover charm used at Privet Drive in CoS and Fudge's disregard in PoA of Harry blowing up his aunt. Harry in PoA was not just a WW hero from babyhood; by all accounts he was that hero being targeted for murder by the madman believed responsible for his parents' and a dozen other deaths. Fudge is a git, but he has always been portrayed as *politically* astute-- and expedient. And that is why Fudge was so intent on prosecuting Harry in OoP as well; Harry was actively threatening the status quo, and putting Fudge's power in jeopardy, and Fudge was right (astute) to think so...how many people here think Fudge will keep his office throughout Book 6? How many people think his loss of that office will be due only to his stubborn and ultimately revealed to be erroneous denial of LV's return? I think once constituents realized that LV had returned, Fudge was political toast. He was scapegoat #1 front and center no matter what. In case of disaster, blame the sitting government; even earthquakes get that: the government should have *done something* (better building standards et al)! (Unquoted sarcasm aside) TLC/Diagon Alley seems to me a very safe place for Fudge to have parked Harry; what's the likelihood of Sirius Black risking one of the mot populous areas in the WW without even knowing Harry's there? Fudge did have someone keeping an eye on Harry; and we don't know, either, what other safeguards (charms, etc.) *might* have been in place (but I don't need that to have it fit together, personally). Besides, Fudge doesn't actually need to keep Harry safe; he only has to have enough evidence for plausible deniability of blame if something does go wrong. (I think someone else brought this up and I don't want to take undeserved credit:) Fudge is twice as concerned that they "lost" Harry (which would be a black mark against the MoM)as he is concerned for Harry's safety. It sounds to me as if he expresses that concern simply because it would be bad form not to. BTW, a personal observation: I find that *my* level of sarcasm increases as frustration with failure to make my point intensifies... it's also a signal to me that I perceive my argument isn't working very well. My tone tends to sharpen as my content gets duller, as I work on intimidating instead of out-debating the opposition. It also functions as an attempt to cover up the fact that I, too, am merely interpreting the facts in the way I find most appealing. Sandy, whistling and studying her fingernails From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Wed Oct 1 12:37:20 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 07:37:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: They are children's books (Was: the heart of it all) References: Message-ID: <001b01c38818$c2bc0340$8a97aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82111 > Golly: > Realistically if HP 7 is meant for a 17 year old, it will be > an adult > > novel. That is perhaps the weirdest thing about the series. I will > > be interested to see how that plays out. I figure I have at least a > > decade to wait. I can see it now... Hermione sitting on a couch talking to one of the guys during the post graduation party... "And this one time, at charms camp, I stuck my wand..." (Sorry... just a twisted little thought there...) > > Penny: > > Oh, I *knew* we'd eventually agree on something! > > Of course, the question becomes: if Book 7 is technically speaking an > "adult" novel (and I think you have to go by the fact that Rowling has > been consistent about age 17 being "adult" in the wizarding world and > that Harry will turn 17 at the *beginning* of Book 7), then how is the > *series* to be viewed? "Children's literature except for the last > volume"??? It is my opinion that the series will eventually be viewed > as either a hybrid of juvenile/YA/adult OR as just literature. Just > literature without any tags or qualifiers. Well, if how Schollastic markets the HP series in their school "book club" program is any indication... they consider it to be a teenager level book and will probably keep it there. (Of course, they do sell some HP themed books and such in the "young reader" selections.) Most of the bookstores keep them in the young adult sections. Of course, we COULD coin a new term when referring to them, considering the increasing complexity of the issues and the steadilt advancing age themes relating to Harry's perspecives. "Age Progressive Literature." Just a thought. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "I can't decide... Am I confused? Or mixed up?" -- Another one of Iggy's bumper stickers From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 2 18:09:07 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 18:09:07 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > It's my believe that while it was proven and accepted that Hagrid was > innocent of the charges for which he was expelled, they have not yet > held a hearing to make that determination official nor have they > expunged that from his record. Also, the criminal charges would have > to be overturned by the court while his expulsion would have to be > officially overturned by the Hogwarts Board of Governors. Yes, and obviously there is no chance of that happening while the current anti-giant and anti-DD climate persists. In fact, Hagrid tells the trio in OoP that it took him a month to find the giants because he and Madame Maxime were being followed and he could not use magic, as he was not allowed to. My impression is that wands are only allowed for qualified wizards, that is, wizards who at least completed their OWLs. Prior to graduation, the use of wands by the students is strictly regulated (no magic out of school, etc.). Hagrid may be cleared officially at some point, but without the requisite formal education will probably not be allowed a new wand. Now it's clear that Hagrid's umbrella contains his old (broken?) wand, but he is not very good at using it in any case (as seen in the case of Dudley whom he was trying to transform into a pig). Hagrid's talents lie elsewhere. Salit From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 18:30:46 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 18:30:46 -0000 Subject: Foreign DADA Teacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Although, I must say that at the moment I am considering Bill Weasley. > He's a curse breaker, I have to believe that to break ancient and > deadly curses, you need a pretty strong knowledge of dark magic. But > you bring up a good point; could Dumbledore spare him. Would it be an acceptable and productive use of his time and talents to be tied up, figuratively, at Hogwarts during a very critical year? Erin: I like that idea a lot.... If, for instance, the goblin revolt happened this summer, then Bill wouldn't be needed to work with them the way he has been. The problem, IMO, with that happening is the curse on the job. What would happen to Bill? Would he die? Become evil? Or, since he is a curse-breaker, perhaps he would be able to break the curse stay in the job for the next two years. But- how would that work with Ron and Ginny going to school there? Can siblings teach each other? > Another suspicion is that Snape might finally get the job. He > certainly is qualified, and they need a serious 'Dark Art' wizard more than ever now. I consider the possibility that it might be easier to find a Potions teacher than a Dark Arts teacher. Having a new potions teacher also opens the possibility of Harry taking Advance Potions so he can become an Auror. The new teacher may not have as strict of requirements as Snape. Erin: I'm hoping Harry will turn out to have done better than he thought on his potions O.W.L. without Snape there to harass him. But if he hasn't, then that is a really good idea. I would love to see Snape teaching Harry in an area that Harry is top of the class in. I just don't know, though... if Snape does ever get the job, I see it as happening in Harry's seventh year. And about the curse... was Snape the one who put it there? I don't have my books with me now. If so, he could break it and stay the last two years, I guess. Erin From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 2 13:44:49 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:44:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic) References: Message-ID: <001701c388ee$0ff64e60$f8e879a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82114 -Corinth: > Why must Dark Magic be ancient? The morsmordre incantation is > probably a recent Voldemort creation, yet I would classify it as Dark > magic. > > I agree that not allancient magic is Dark. As a matter of fact, the > only magic referred to in these terms in canon is deciseively un-Dark. Nineve: > > And in both there are new spells. Corinth: > Officially confused. :) Are you saying that ancient magic isn't > necessarily ancient? I thought that was the only thing we knew for > certain. Iggy: As a Neo-Pagan and a practitioner of Ritual, here's how a lot of us tend to view magic: Magic is a force that is neither inherently good or bad. It is like fire and can be used for a variety of purposes. It is the intent behind the task, the methodology used, and the source that it's sought from that determines whether or not it's White, Dark, or Grey. White Magic tends to be used for healing, protection, blessings, purification, good fortune, bringing bountiful crops, fertility, is used to bring positive emotions like hope or joy, etc... Black Magic is used to curse, bring pain or harm, bring something to one's self at the unwilling expense of another, is sought from "evil" sources (by Neo-Pagan standards...), is intended to cause negative emotions like fear or anger, etc... Grey Magic tends to be more neutral and usually includes things that don't tend to impact others unless they wish it to. This often includes things such as divination (where the subject has to actively make choices regarding the information), past life viewing, communing with a spirit guide, etc... Offerings are often made in the form of burned herbs (such as Sage or incense), something significant to the subject of the ritual (an item, hair, or their own blood at times...), oils are often applied to key points of the body, candles are lit, prayers or runes are written on paper and burned, and other aspects of the rituals are performed. In the past, for Dark Magics, unwilling human or animal sacrifices would achieve some of the most powerful results. The more significant the animal or person, the more powerful the result. On the other hand, for White Magics, sacrifices would also be used, but if it was human, the sacrifice was a willing one. (There IS archeological and anthropological evidence existing of a number of willing human sacrifices.) Divination also sometimes involved sacrificing an animal to read its entrails. Please note that, among Neo-Pagans in this modern time, the most intense people get for sacrifice is including their own blood in a ritual... The above reference to human and animal sacrifice was for historical background... The ritual LV used to create a body for himself is a good example of old Dark Magic. While Wormtail's sacrifice was willing (well... for all intents and purposes, since he cut off his hand under his own free will...), the contribution from his father was unknowing (and would have been unwilling... especially since it included the desecration of the grave), and the one from Harry was definitely unwilling. It was done for immediate selfish reasons, and long term evil ones. OTOH, Lilly sacrificing her life in order to save Harry was an example of old White Magics. She gave her life willingly, a VERY powerful form of sacrifice, especially for the reason she gave it... (For love, not out of a sense of duty or responsibility.) Petunia taking Harry in of her own free will, Harry returning to Privet Drive of his own free will, etc. I hope that this was enlightening enough (and, hopefully, not too confusing.). I'd also like to point out that a lot of the rituals and such in Neo-Paganism are not that different (fundamentally) to some of those used in more widely accepted beliefs. Here's a couple of examples that some believe. Christ going willingly to the cross is a STRONG form of some of the most powerful of White Magics. (Willing sacrifice, done in love, with intent to purify and bless others.) the Holy Communion is a good example of Ritual, as is baptism. (A representational acceptance of the flesh and blood of Christ for the former... Holy water, oils, wine, and prayer being used to purify and bless in the latter.) Meditation, prayer, drumming, and the burning of herbs or incense are often used in Buddhist and Shinto prayer rituals. The lighting of candles in the honoring of an old tradition and to bring blessings upon the house during Chanukah. Painting of blood upon the posts and lintel of the doorway to protect their families during the plagues in the Book of Exodus, for the Jewish faith. Well... 'Nuff said for now. Iggy McSnurd. the Prankster "WITCHES PARKING (all others will be toad)" -- Another of Iggy's bumper stickers From elfmom at msn.com Thu Oct 2 15:14:54 2003 From: elfmom at msn.com (Samantha) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 15:14:54 -0000 Subject: The Goblet of Fire Lily/James error Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82115 Hi all. I know everyone is on about OotP right now, but.... After reading and re-reading and re-reading (lol) the 5 books, I, like so many others, still can't get enough Harry. So, I got the books on tape(plus I got a new car and finally have a tape deck). I just finished listening to GoF and heard the error about James coming through LV's wand before Lily. I, of course, have heard about this before, but was always confused. In the copy of GoF that I have Lily comes through first as she should. I was always thinking 'what are these people talking about?...James doesn't come through before Lily'. Well, now that I heard it this way on the tape...I understand. Light bulb going off...finally...I must have a re-written version.--Don't everyone say "Duh" at the same time now. Although I have heard of the mistake, I hadn't heard of it being corrected...otherwise, I would have figured out that I had a corrected copy and I would not have thought the world was going crazy....lol.(I didn't get GoF when it was released. I got 1-4 after seeing SS at the movies). Just thought I would share my story....to give y'all a laugh. ~Samantha From nakedhermione at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 16:30:48 2003 From: nakedhermione at yahoo.com (nakedhermione) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:30:48 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82116 A thousand pardons to the group if this question has already been asked but... Could the Time-Turner used by Hermione in POA (to save Black the first time) also be used to go back in time and save Sirius from being killed by Bellatrix in OOTP? If so, why hasn't any of Dumbledore's crew thought of it? Is it not possible after someone has already died? Now, no peeking, NakedHermione From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 18:35:52 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 18:35:52 -0000 Subject: Spy!Remus/(was Re: Crying wolf?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82117 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Besides, Sirius thought that *Remus* was the spy. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323"wrote: In rereading PoA however many times I've done so now I have never managed to come away with this impression. What is it that makes people think that Sirius suspects Remus of being the betrayer instead of Pettigrew? Erin: He doesn't think that in POA in the shrieking shack, he thought it back when he urged James and Lily to use Pettigrew as the secretkeeper instead of himself. He says so in the shrieking shack. Erin From autumnskeye at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 16:49:41 2003 From: autumnskeye at yahoo.com (autumnskeye) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:49:41 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82118 "o_caipora" wrote in message 82086: > Two clues ... a) Sirius inherited ...despite his mother's dislike of him, ...she didn't have the power to disinherit; and b) Rowling so carefully showed us that Draco is the closest male heir. > > She could have had the family tree show Draco as a relative without making him the closest male heir. She didn't. I smell plot twist. Aussie: > - Or if not the next male, Kreacher's hero, Bellatrix Lestrange may move in ... Me>>>>>In OOTP on page 108, Kreacher addresses Fred as "young master" and bows to him. He does not do this to anyone else, other than Sirius. I think Kreacher knows something we don't. Autumn From rose at swicegood.com Thu Oct 2 17:44:59 2003 From: rose at swicegood.com (roseswicegood) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 17:44:59 -0000 Subject: Petunia's protection of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82119 Richard says: > > An interesting point here is that Voldemort KNOWS about the > > protection at Privet Drive, and we may assume from his comment > > on the subject that he knows it to be effective. He may have not known about Privet Drive, giving Dumbledore the opportunity to put the charm on it. Kagome: > But _is_ it effective anymore? At the end of GoF, after Harry's > blood is used in the spell, LV is able to touch him, and says: > > > The fact that he's able to touch Harry, and his indication that > it negates the sacrifice of Lily, implies that it might mean the > negation of Dumbledore's charm, which built on the sacrifice Lily > had made. I believe the charm at Privet Drive is magic, but not the Ancient Magic that V. refers to. 'The bond of love' is also something that V. wouldn't think of. The charm at Privet drive, I believe, is more in the line of 'Secret Keeper' using "bloodlines charm" to protect the house. It begs the question, why did James and Lily have to have a secret keeper to protect them in Godric's Hollow, then? I'm still among the believers that Ms. Figg was the Secret Keeper for Harry. Sorry, more questions, fewer answers. Rose From editor at texas.net Thu Oct 2 19:43:47 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 19:43:47 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82120 N.Hermione asked: > A thousand pardons to the group if this question has already been > asked but... > Could the Time-Turner used by Hermione in POA (to save Black the > first time) also be used to go back in time and save Sirius from > being killed by Bellatrix in OOTP? If so, why hasn't any of > Dumbledore's crew thought of it? Is it not possible after someone has > already died? No. Even if the idea occurred to anyone, and they tried it, they would fail. Because, even if the idea itself hasn't happened yet, we have *already experienced* the time to which they would return, and Sirius died. The events they want to affect have already happened. Take Buckbeak--he was never actually killed. They didn't go back and *change* things--they were simply a part of the things that did occur, that already had happened. If an attempt to save Sirius were made, we would already have seen that attempt during the fight scene, and if one was made, it clearly didn't work. So, I'd have to say no, use of the time-turner wouldn't save him, because he's already died. If the time-turner were used to save him, he would have survived; we just wouldn't know why yet (much like Buckbeak). Sorry. ~Amanda From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 2 20:14:25 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:14:25 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > Talisman writes now: > Problem 1) no story, reasonable or otherwise "came" out before > Lupin's supposed epiphany. Lupin runs into the room, asks "where is > he?" and then basically says: Aha! So that means you switched and > made him the secret keeper, but didn't tell me, and this means he is > really the traitor who sold out Lily and James (and that means you > are innocent!) Come to my arms my beamish boy! (PoA 344) That would make a lot of sense to me if Lupin was never convinced that Sirius was guilty. I think his attitude throughout PoA indicates that (for instance his comment to Harry that no man deserves to have the Dementors Kiss performed on them). Let's not forget - Lupin knew the three other marauders better than anyone else, and is very perceptive. So knowing that Pettigrew is alive and knowing him as well as he did, it only took him a minute to put two and two together. > Sirius is pointing at Ron. (Oh, I see, you are pointing at Ron; that > must mean you weren't the secret keeper!?) Huh? [deleted] > Why doesn't Lupin want to know what Sirius means? Well, he knew Pettigrew animagus form and he knew (I assume) that Ron had a rat - after all he had the rat with him in the train where he was sharing a compartment with Lupin (who was awake after the dementors came). > Problem 2) Lupin hasn't seen any missing rat fingers at this point. > So on what evidence was he relying? All he has is that he saw > Pettigrew's name on the MM. He knoes Pettigrew is in the shack and he knows Ron has a rat. > Problem 3) Lupin can NOT tell from the MM that Pettigrew is in rat > form. Yet, in the Shrieking Shack he knows this instantly 1) without > being told, 2) without even seeing Scabbers. He knew that Pettigrew was there from the marauders map. There was no place there for a grown man to hide. > Also, Lupin had not yet made eye contact with Scabbers/Pettigrew, so > even if he were a Legilimens, he couldn't know Pettigrew's story > before he started embracing Sirius. The traitor must have been either Sirius or Pettigrew. If Pettigrew was innocent he would have presumably shown himself and give testimony long before - or at the least he'd do that in the shack. > 1. Lupin says he doesn't actually know how he escaped. He swears he > didn't use Dark Magic--and no one else has ever escaped from Azkaban- > -but, weak and wandless, Sirius did it without knowing how or what > he was doing. In a mystery story, that alone should convince you > there was outside help. You mean Sirius, not Lupin, right? He did not need a wand to transform. And as for him not knowing "exactly" how he did it, it is possible that just like his emotions change as he transforms, so does a part of his comprehensive skills, or perhaps his ability to see or sense the dementors change. If so, once he becomes human again he will not be able to explain how it happened - because he did it when he was a dog. > 2. Sirius "thinks" that his innocence saved him from losing his > mind. Funny, being innocent didn't save Hagrid when he was sent up > in CoS. > > Hermione: "Is it awful there, Hagrid?" (PoA 220) > "Yeh've no idea," said Hagrid quietly. "Never bin anywhere like it. > Thought I was goin' *mad* Kep' goin' over horrible stuff . . ." > (220 my emphasis) "Yeh can' remember who you are after awhile. An' > yeh can' see the point o' livin' at all. I used ter hope I'd jus' > die in me sleep." (221) I think there is a difference, subtle I admit, but real, in losing mind and losing hope. Hagrid was not on the verge of losing his mind but lose hope. Also he did not have access to the escape outlet that Sirius had - he could not transform into an animal, so he was fully exposed to the dementors. I also think that in many ways Hagrid is quite fragile emotionally - notice how he falls apart after Rita Skeeter's article - and compare that to Sirius' handling of the fact that the entire world (wizards and muggles) think he is a mass murderer. Sirius is a lot tougher emotionally than Hagrid. > 3. Sirius alternately says he slipped past the Dementors when they > opened his door to feed him, or that he slipped through the bars. And why could not both be true? He could slip through the bars while they opened the door - because maybe he had both a door *and* bars? Maybe the door was solid and the dementors were standing near the bars, so he could only slip through them when they moved away from there in order to open the door. > Odd that they would be confused and bamboozled in close quarters > when they are specifically guarding him, but they weren't confused > at all when they swarmed after Padfoot as he ran around the > spacious, rather populated, Hogwarts grounds on the night of the > Shrieking Shack scene. (PoA 382) There are two possibilities here: one is that in greater numbers they have much more power - we have never heard them speak, after all. They could have some non-verbal communication and perhaps a way to combine their power. The second possibility is that the dementors were really after Harry. They tried to attack him every time they came in contact with him (the train, the quidditch game and at the end - they tried to kiss him first - ahead of Sirius). This is my suspicion. Who ordered them to go after Harry is an interesting question. > Moreover, it appears that the Dementors have the effect of forcing > Padfoot to transform back to his human form: The "yelping stopped > abruptly . . . They saw why--Sirius had turned back into a man. He > was crouched on all fours, his hands over his head." (PoA 382) Yes, when there were 100 of them congregated in one spot. Animals are affected by them too, just not as much. But in greater numbers they may be able to overcome any wizard. > Dim-witted as Harry can be, even he thinks something is > fishy: "there was something extremely odd going on . . . this > didn't tally at all with Harry's past dealings with the Ministry of > Magic." (PoA 45) I don't agree that Harry is dim-witted, but I agree that something fishy was going on. Why are the dementors going after Harry each time they get close to him? At that point they are not yet allied with Voldemort, or are they? We know that Fudge is under Lucius Malfoy's control since CoS (see their scene in Hagrid's hut). Could Malfoy have convinced him to send the dementors there and then added a few extra instructions to them? I would not put it past him - after all he engineered the entire diary thing in CoS and led the DE's at the world cup in GoF and again in the MoM in OoP. > Moreover, as Harry wanders around the shops of Diagon Alley, all by > his lonesome, JKR gives us another POV that we can use in assessing > Fudge's behavior; that of an actually caring parent who > says: "Personally, I won't let any of my children out alone until > [Black's] back in Azkaban." (PoA 50) Ah but I don't think that Tom is the only one asked to watch Harry. Remember the ice cream guy feeding him a constant supply of sundaes in PoA? I think all the shop owners were asked to look out for him. I agree that Fudge is suspicious, but I don't see him as the engineer there - I think he is a small man manipulated by Malfoy. Salit From lbiles at flash.net Thu Oct 2 20:21:21 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:21:21 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82122 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" wrote: > > > 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > A while back I speculated that this one stretches a bit further > than you've cast your net. > > The two of 'neither' could be James and Lily, the 'other', Harry. > > So it would be foretold that if Harry is to survive, James and Lily > must die. Helps with the elimination of Neville, too. His parents > survived. > > The rest of the posters were overwhelmed - by apathy! > If you're interested it was 'That Damn Prophecy - an alternative > take.' (75081) > > Kneasy Wow! When I read this post the fireworks and allelluiah chorus went off in my head. I must have missed it the first time around because I reached a point where I was so burnt out on trying to figure out the prophecy that I just began ignoring it and skipping those posts. This makes perfect sense. Neither can live while the other survives. They died to protect Harry and had they handed him over presumably LV would have let them live. Don't we hear him tell Lily in one of Harry's dementor flashbacks that he doesn't want to kill her and just hand him the child? I hope you get feedback this time because I would love to read response to this! leb From lbiles at flash.net Thu Oct 2 20:36:41 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:36:41 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > It's my believe that while it was proven and accepted that Hagrid was > innocent of the charges for which he was expelled, they have not yet > held a hearing to make that determination official nor have they > expunged that from his record. Also, the criminal charges would have > to be overturned by the court while his expulsion would have to be > officially overturned by the Hogwarts Board of Governors. Although I would like to see it happen, what is the liklihood? Hagrid reappears at the end of OoP after escaping from Umbridge and her lackies with only the explanation that he was hiding in the caves. He attacked them -- granted it was physical and not magical -- but it plays right into Umbridge's portrayal of him as a dangerous halfbreed. I'm afraid that book 6 is going to start out with some very nasty repercussions from actions in OoP that our attention was diverted away from by the big events at the end of the book. Among them Hagrid being punished for assault and Umbridge taking full credit for her "revolutionary" DADA teaching methods resulting in the highest OWLs in years -- which explains her gleam during Harry's DADA OWL. I really hope I am wrong on all counts! leb From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 20:42:31 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:42:31 -0000 Subject: Petunia's protection of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "roseswicegood" wrote: > > Richard says: > > > An interesting point here is that Voldemort KNOWS about the > > > protection at Privet Drive, and we may assume from his comment > > > on the subject that he knows it to be effective. > > Rose: > He may have not known about Privet Drive, giving Dumbledore the > opportunity to put the charm on it. Richard (moi) replies: As Voldemort said (in OotP, though as I am without the text I cannot cite it exactly) about that he cannot harm Harry at the Dursleys', and that it is an old magic, I think it a given that he knows about the place, and that he knows that the protection is an related to ancient or blood magic. As to WHEN Voldemore became aware of Privet Drive, I think that is irrelevant, since prior to the attack at Godric's Hollow the Potters and Dursleys did not associate at all, and the magical protection was placed by Dumbledore in the roughly 24 hours following that attack (when Voldemort was so recently diminished as to be incapable of an attack ... Dumbledore left the message explaining the protection to Petunia with Harry). By the time Voldemort was in a position to even consider an attack upon Harry there, the magic was well in place. > Kagome: > > But _is_ it effective anymore? At the end of GoF, after Harry's > > blood is used in the spell, LV is able to touch him, and says: > > > > > > The fact that he's able to touch Harry, and his indication that > > it negates the sacrifice of Lily, implies that it might mean the > > negation of Dumbledore's charm, which built on the sacrifice Lily > > had made. > > Rose: > I believe the charm at Privet Drive is magic, but not the Ancient > Magic that V. refers to. 'The bond of love' is also something that > V. wouldn't think of. > The charm at Privet drive, I believe, is more in the line of 'Secret > Keeper' using "bloodlines charm" to protect the house. It begs the > question, why did James and Lily have to have a secret keeper to > protect them in Godric's Hollow, then? I'm still among the > believers that Ms. Figg was the Secret Keeper for Harry. > Sorry, more questions, fewer answers. Richard again: This charm is explained as wrapping the secret in the person of the secret keeper ... it is simply the nature of the charm, in a sense. However, if a secret is kept too tightly, it can be of no use, or even destructive. Let's say the Potters hide from Voldemort so well that NOBODY can find them ... then Voldemort inexplicable dies from other causes. (This is a hypothetical, here, so don't jump up and down and shout "That's not canon!" yet.) So, how does anyone TELL the Potters that Voldemort is dead and they no-longer need to hide? Sure, eventually they would likely find out for themselves as they poke their noses out for food or such, but we are dealing with a magical universe wherein they might not need to so poke for DECADES. As for the ancient/blood magic that protects Harry at Privet Drive, we again have to look at what Voldemort said ... which is quite scant. But, knowing of a protective magic there doesn't mean that Voldemort will automatically attack Harry there. It is classic military doctrine to attack where your enemy is weakest, and at the place and time of one's own choosing. Attacking Harry at Privet Drive would be, in a very real way, attacking at the place of Dumbledore's choosing, even if the attack is at a time of Voldemort's choosing. Thus, regardless of Voldemort's knowledge of or respect (or disrespect) for the protections at Privet Drive, I still think it not at all surprising that we have not seen such an attach ... yet. Richard From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Oct 2 21:00:08 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 21:00:08 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle (was: Voldemort's name) In-Reply-To: <001b01c388ee$11d3e800$f8e879a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: >> > Iggy: > > With the Malfoy fanaticism about purebloods, I don't think Lucius knows... > otherwise, I honestly don't think the Malfoys would support him if they > found out. > > Part of me also thinks that it's significant that DD said LV's real name in > the same room as Bellatrix. I think she actually DID hear his name, even > though it hasn't registered in her mind during OotP. (To my thinking, > she'll realize that DD was addressing LV as "Thomas" and will look into it > for some reason. When some of the DE find out LV is a half-blood, it will > weaken his support base.) > Geoff: Don't forget also that Harry told Bellatix that Voldemort was a halfblood in the hearing of about a dozen other Death Eaters at the beginning of the confrontation in the Prophecy Room at the Ministry of Magic. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Oct 2 21:30:03 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 21:30:03 -0000 Subject: Repercussions for Fred/George(was Re: Hagrid's wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > I'm afraid that book 6 is going to start out with some very nasty > repercussions from actions in OoP that our attention was diverted > away from by the big events at the end of the book. Among them > Hagrid being punished for assault and Umbridge taking full credit for > her "revolutionary" DADA teaching methods resulting in the highest > OWLs in years -- which explains her gleam during Harry's DADA OWL. > I really hope I am wrong on all counts! Jen: Talking about repercussions from OOTP, this one is minor but a loose end I'd like to see tied up: The last scene at the train station when all the Weasleys are present including Fred and George. And Mrs. Weasley is acting the same as always, not at all like her two "trouble" children quit school and started a joke shop. Sure, sure, I know the WW hangs in the balance at the moment, but still...this is *important*. Harry worried all through OOTP about the Weasley's finding out about the joke shop and his financial backing and ...nothing. Were we denied the scene when Molly and Arthur find out F/G left school and started a joke shop? It seems so, since F/G are obviously *not* getting off the Hogwarts Express. I want to at least hear the story at some point. How Molly blew her top, but then finally realized and accepted that F/G are meant to own a joke shop and that's a perfectly OK profession and yada, yada...or whatever took place. Any other repercussions that need a little explanation in Book 6? From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 21:39:22 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 21:39:22 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301854960@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82127 hermionegallo wrote (snipped) "I think it's notable that Lupin's bag is old and worn, with "Prof. R. J. Lupin" embossed in gold. The lettering is old too, sorry I don't have the book on hand to quote..." James replied 82081: "When I read that it crossed my mind that something more was going on. But I quickly realised that the text could equally well be describing an old bag that had recently had the name/initials added to it. The bag being old doesn't necessarily mean that the lettering on it was old." hg replies: No, I specifically had remembered the letters being old, as I said. Now I have the book: "...there was a small, battered case held together with a large quantity of neatly knotted string. The name 'Professor R. J. Lupin' was stamped across one corner in peeling letters." (PoA, 74) So, I don't know what side of the Lupin argument this contributes to, but it's clear that he's either been a professor before, or there was another Professor R. J. Lupin in his family. hg. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 21:59:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 21:59:25 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > It's my believe that while it was proven and accepted that Hagrid > > was innocent of the charges for which he was expelled, they have > > not yet held a hearing to make that determination official .... > Salit: > > ...edited... > > My impression is that wands are only allowed for qualified wizards, > that is, wizards who at least completed their OWLs. Prior to > graduation, the use of wands by the students is strictly regulated > (no magic out of school, etc.). Hagrid may be cleared officially at > some point, but without the requisite formal education will probably > not be allowed a new wand. ...edited... > > Salit bboy_mn: The law that regulates use of wands by students is 'The Decree for the Restriction of UNDERAGE Wizardry'. Since Hagrid is nearly 70 years old, the Underage restriction does not apply to him. I think three years of formal schooling and a lifetime of experience would qualify him for a wand, if his name was formally cleared. Justa a thought. bboy_mn From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 2 22:03:07 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:03:07 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "augustinapeach" wrote: > Finally, Voldemort -- "It's probably lucky Voldemort didn't get the > orb for he'd have to take it back and demanded a refund!" > > This is where I differ. I think the prophecy has huge implications > for Voldemort. For one thing, it tells him who he really has to > fear -- Harry. But he knows that from the part of the prophecy he knows of - "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord ... will be born as the seventh month dies". Why otherwise does he spend so much effort trying to destroy and/or capture Harry, but virtually no effort on trying to kill Dumbledore? > Even > during the scene in the atrium of the MOM, when he and Harry are > face to face, Bellatrix is trying to warn Voldemort that Dumbledore > is in the building (p. 812, US). Voldemort, in his arrogance, again > sells Harry short, dismissing him by saying, "You have irked me too > often, for too long." (p. 813) (This attitude also shows in GOF, > Chap. 33.) I don't think you would say your mortal enemy has "irked" > you! Voldemort is going to kill Harry simply for revenge, not > realizing Harry's power. My reading of that is quite different. Voldemort is so focused on killing Harry that he pushes everything else away from his mind. He tells Bellatrix "Do you think I came here to hear your snivelling apology?". He came there specifically to kill Harry, even though this totally messes up his brilliant strategy of staying hidden and letting Malfoy manipulate Fudge and the ministry to get rid of his main enemies (Harry, Dumbledore, etc.) without so much as lifting a finger himself. I also think that he did not understand who the "he" in Bellatrix's warning was. She did not say "Dumbledore". How could Voldemort know who she referred to? If he were not so preoccupied with Harry, he would probably have stopped to consider who she meant. And I did not think he sold Harry short here - yes he speaks very contemptously to him, but unlike GoF where he tries to play with him, here he goes specifically to kill him and wastes no time doing that, barring a few gloating words. Salit From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 22:08:40 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:08:40 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82130 wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I've just re-read the prophecy chapter and I'm still hopelessly > > confused. Help! > > > > My main problem is that it appears really lame. It doesn't tell > > anybody much that they didn't already know. > > > > > 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . > > > Kneasy: > A while back I speculated that this one stretches a bit further > than you've cast your net. > > The two of 'neither' could be James and Lily, the 'other', Harry. > > So it would be foretold that if Harry is to survive, James and Lily > must die. Laura: But that's an incredibly tortured (you should forgive the expression in this context) reading of that phrase. The "neither" and "either" have to refer to the same people, and those two people must be the ones referred to in the previous clause. Otherwise it violates the rules of English. "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have a power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..." Okay, so the subject of the prophecy starts out to be "the one with the power". It's never about "those who have thrice defied him" because that's one of two descriptive clauses modifying "the one with the power". Then it immediately switches to the DL as subject, with "him" as object-not "them". So the next phrase can only make sense if it's about the object and subject of the previous phrase. And the "neither can live" clause is dependent on the "either must die" clause-it's a cause and effect relationship being stated. So I'm not buying the theory. However, it does seem unarguable that *if* the power that protects Harry is indeed the love Lily bestowed on him in her self-sacrifice, then she did have to die so that Harry would in fact have that power. Her love for her child during the normal course of her life was apparently not enough to save Harry from LV. Although now that I think of it, we don't know that for sure...what if LV had tried to AK Harry before killing Lily? DD says it was her dying love that saved him, but Kneasy and others are not about to trust what DD says. Was it something about Lily or something about the sacrifice of her life, or both, or... I'm going off to take some aspirins...good Lord, now I'm turning into a conspiracy theorist too... Laura, shaking her head in utter confusion-but hoping the sentence deconstruction made sense From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 22:15:08 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:15:08 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82131 You know, I wonder if this whole line of thought is important to the future books. It's only a house, after all. Its significance was created by Sirius and DD in making it OoP HQ. If the Order decides to find another safe house, then who cares what happens to it? Maybe in Sirius' memory they should burn the wretched place to the ground- take that, Mrs Black! The real problem of course, is Kreachur (boos and hisses welcome). Who in the Order now has the power to shut him up? Can he be bequeathed just as any other piece of family property can be? *winces* If so, then you'd think he would be bound to his inheritor as he was to his previous owner and compelled to keep that person's secrets and his silence. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 22:18:53 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:18:53 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: phoenix life cycles In-Reply-To: <0766BE05.65DAD00B.02A5D73B@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82132 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Yahtzee63 at a... wrote: > Traditionally, I know, the phoenix is supposed to live for 100 years before dying in flames and being reborn. ... To me, it seems as though Dumbledore has seen Fawkes go through a few cycles, and ..., that would seem to suggest that Fawkes dies/is reborn far more frequently. ..edited... > > Yahtzee bboy_mn: Depending on where you get your mythology from, the 100 year life cycle is debatable, but at the sametime, I will admit it is a number that is commonly used. If you think about it, we have already seen Fawkes, not go through two full lifecyles, but go through two rebirths. In CoS we see Fawkes regenerate in his normal lifecyle, but in the latest book, we see him regenerate when he is 'killed' when he blocks Voldemort's killing curse in the atrium at the Ministry of Magic. So, the implication is that a Phoenix can die of natural or un-natural causes, but either way he will be reborn from the ashes. If Cos was the end of Fawkes's normal lifecycle and we accept the 100 year standard lifecycle, that means his previous regeneration occurred when Dumbledore was about 50 years old. Also, we do not know that Dumbledore has not seen other Phoenix regenerate; that is certainly a possibility. Just a thought. bboy_mn From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 2 22:41:27 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:41:27 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "augustinapeach" > wrote: > > Finally, Voldemort -- "It's probably lucky Voldemort didn't get the > > orb for he'd have to take it back and demanded a refund!" > > > > This is where I differ. I think the prophecy has huge implications > > for Voldemort. For one thing, it tells him who he really has to > > fear -- Harry. > > But he knows that from the part of the prophecy he knows of - "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord ... will be born as the seventh month dies". Why otherwise does he spend so much effort trying to destroy and/or capture Harry, but virtually no effort on trying to kill Dumbledore? > But Voldemort doesn't know that the prophesied one is the *only* one who can kill him (either must die at the hand of the other), so he actually needn't fear Dumbledore or the Aurors, whom he has been avoiding for so long. Voldemort also doesn't know that he is the only one who can destroy Harry (if Harry is the One), so that his efforts t to make Dumbledore do it for him are bound to fail. Another thing Voldemort doesn't know is that it was prophesied that he would mark his equal, meaning he is still in doubt about whether Harry or Neville is the One. Pippin From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Thu Oct 2 22:42:16 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:42:16 -0000 Subject: Repercussions for Fred/George(was Re: Hagrid's wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > > > I'm afraid that book 6 is going to start out with some very nasty > > repercussions from actions in OoP that our attention was diverted > > away from by the big events at the end of the book. Among them > > Hagrid being punished for assault and Umbridge taking full credit > for > > her "revolutionary" DADA teaching methods resulting in the highest > > OWLs in years -- which explains her gleam during Harry's DADA OWL. > > I really hope I am wrong on all counts! > > > Jen: > Talking about repercussions from OOTP, this one is minor but a loose > end I'd like to see tied up: The last scene at the train station when > all the Weasleys are present including Fred and George. And Mrs. > Weasley is acting the same as always, not at all like her > two "trouble" children quit school and started a joke shop. > > Sure, sure, I know the WW hangs in the balance at the moment, but > still...this is *important*. Harry worried all through OOTP about the > Weasley's finding out about the joke shop and his financial backing > and ...nothing. > > Were we denied the scene when Molly and Arthur find out F/G left > school and started a joke shop? It seems so, since F/G are obviously > *not* getting off the Hogwarts Express. I want to at least hear the > story at some point. How Molly blew her top, but then finally > realized and accepted that F/G are meant to own a joke shop and > that's a perfectly OK profession and yada, yada...or whatever took > place. > > Any other repercussions that need a little explanation in Book 6? Another Jen... Two things that we have discussed ad nauseum but I will be looking for the play out, 1)How will Harry and Snape interact? Harry's always had reasons to dislike Snape but the hatred coursing through him when he sees Snape for the first time after Sirius'death, that reached a whole new level. He's using Snape as a scapegoat, and while I'm hoping he gets over it, I don't think it will be a neat and tidy process. The other situation: Will Draco and the children of other DE's be back? And if so, how can school possibly be conducted as per normal? Jennifer From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Oct 2 23:01:41 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 23:01:41 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82135 Dumbledad wrote: > I've just re-read the prophecy chapter and I'm still hopelessly > confused. Help! > > My main problem is that it appears really lame. It doesn't tell > anybody much that they didn't already know. > > Here it is again: > > 6) either must die at the hand of the other for > 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . > > Thirdly Harry. > Now, he must have spotted the fact > that Voldemort is repeatedly trying to kill him, it's happened 4 > times before Book 5, so (6) and (7) don't tell him much. But... but... 6 and 7 change everything, because Harry now believes that either Voldemort must take over the world or he, Harry, must be a murderer. What an awful choice! No wonder Dumbledore tried to keep it from him. (I don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty sure there's something in Dumbledore's words to Harry that show hw is aware of this consideration.) The only logical way out consistent with a clear conscience for Harry, it seems, is for *both* Harry and Voldemort to die. However, I rather think that the main plot twist of Book 7 will be the mechanism by which Harry survives with his integrity intact, Voldemort is defeated (killed? Who knows? East Cheam awaits with baited breath), and the prophecy is fulfilled to the letter. David, who thinks Dumbledad may now have christened a whole raft of 'East Cheam' theories: Evil Antagonist Survives Trials, Comes Home Eventually And Mellows - take it away, TBAY! From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 23:10:39 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 23:10:39 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" > > wrote: > > > > 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > > A while back I speculated that this one stretches a bit further > > than you've cast your net. > > > > The two of 'neither' could be James and Lily, the 'other', Harry. > > > > So it would be foretold that if Harry is to survive, James and Lily > > must die. Helps with the elimination of Neville, too. His parents > > survived. > > > > The rest of the posters were overwhelmed - by apathy! > > If you're interested it was 'That Damn Prophecy - an alternative > > take.' (75081) > > > > Kneasy > > Wow! When I read this post the fireworks and allelluiah chorus went > off in my head. I must have missed it the first time around because > I reached a point where I was so burnt out on trying to figure out > the prophecy that I just began ignoring it and skipping those posts. > > This makes perfect sense. Neither can live while the other survives. > They died to protect Harry and had they handed him over presumably LV > would have let them live. Don't we hear him tell Lily in one of > Harry's dementor flashbacks that he doesn't want to kill her and just > hand him the child? Richard here ... I think you are both so far off the canonical reservation as to be on a wholly different story line. I'm not trying to be rude, but you just don't seem to be reading this prophecy, and looking at its context, logically. The prophecy is about Voldemort and Harry, and the "neither" refers to Harry and Voldemort. Now, the "Harry et Voldemort" parts are both presumptive, since it only refers to the the one who can vanquish the "Dark Lord," but we all understand what was being said was about Voldemort as the Dark Lord, and Harry from the clues of date of birth, parental defiance and being marked by Voldemort as his "equal." BUT, you've dragged in James and Lily as the "neither," which makes no sense at all! The tip off is the part that preceeds the "neither," which says that one must die by the other's hands, "... for neither can live while the other survives." Obviously, neither James nor Lily died by (or at or anything) Harry's hands. Harry was an toddler at best, and the target of an attempted murder. Both of Harry's parents were murdered by Voldemort. If that "neither" meant what you think it meant, Harry would have had to kill ONE of them, but then the neither requires that he kill BOTH of them BY HIS HAND, else he cannot live. Now, if you look at it as being about Harry and Voldemort, it makes sense. Harry is Voldemorts nemesis and vice versa. Either Voldemort must die at Harry's hands for Harry to live, or Voldemort must kill Harry for Voldemort to live. Now equally as obviously, both are alive now (in the story line, post OotP), which would seem to be in direct conflict with the prophecy. However, I think neither is "living" in a certain sense: each is "seized of" the other's existence, and the threat this poses to each others' lives. Until one of them is dead, BOTH are stuck in a conflict that must end in death for one of them. leb continued: > I hope you get feedback this time because I would love to read > response to this! > > leb Well, you got your wish, but I don't think you got quite what you expected. I don't and can't agree with your interpretation, and cannot see how you confused the English to arrive at it. Richard, whose English major mother is showing through. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 23:12:15 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 23:12:15 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82137 Tim Regan wrote: > 7) neither can live while the other survives . . . Kneasy wrote: > A while back I speculated that this one stretches a bit further > than you've cast your net. > The two of 'neither' could be James and Lily, the 'other', Harry. > So it would be foretold that if Harry is to survive, James and Lily > must die. Helps with the elimination of Neville, too. His parents > survived. > > The rest of the posters were overwhelmed - by apathy! > If you're interested it was 'That Damn Prophecy - an alternative > take.' (75081) leb2323 wrote: > Wow! When I read this post the fireworks and allelluiah chorus > went off in my head. I must have missed it the first time around > because I reached a point where I was so burnt out on trying to > figure out the prophecy that I just began ignoring it and skipping > those posts. > This makes perfect sense. Neither can live while the other > survives. They died to protect Harry and had they handed him over > presumably LV would have let them live. Don't we hear him tell > Lily in one of Harry's dementor flashbacks that he doesn't want to > kill her and just hand him the child? > I hope you get feedback this time because I would love to read > response to this! Now me (Sandy): Okay, feedback. (I am SO tempted to count the words in the prophecy; somebody do it/find a count for me, okay? What a lot of scrutiny this one puny paragraph has undergone in such a short time; one would think it holy writ. ;-)) First I have to go back to the entire passage: THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES...BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES... AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS HIS EQUAL, BUT HE WILL HAVE POWER THE DARK LORD KNOWS NOT...AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES...THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES.... This is something I've been meaning to do just forever (well, since OoP came out). The one real rosetta stone I think we have for figuring out the first prophecy is the second prophecy (and I hope I'm not reinventing the wheel, here): IT WILL HAPPEN TONIGHT. THE DARK LORD LIES ALONE AND FRIENDLESS, ABANDONED BY HIS FOLLOWERS. HIS SERVANT HAS BEEN CHAINED THESE TWELVE YEARS. TONIGHT, BEFORE MIDNIGHT...THE SERVANT WILL BREAK FREE AND SET OUT TO REJOIN HIS MASTER. THE DARK LORD WILL RISE AGAIN WITH HIS SERVANT'S AID, GREATER AND MORE TERRIBLE THAN EVER HE WAS. TONIGHT... BEFORE MIDNIGHT...THE SERVANT...WILL SET OUT...TO REJOIN...HIS MASTER.... If we surmise that the second prophecy refers to Peter, then it seems pretty straightforward, doesn't it? Peter did escape, and did go back to LV. He did help LV "rise again." We haven't seen any "greater and more terrible" yet, but it very likely is coming in the next couple of books, if we take it at face value. Why shouldn't we? What other interpretation is there for the second prophecy that doesn't just wander right off the map and into the land of "wishing can make it so"? While I dearly love the notion that the first prophecy not may mean that Harry has to be either murderer or victim, I don't have a lot of belief that it is so. I'd LOVE for that "neither can live" to refer back to "those who have thrice defied him." I mean, it could work, couldn't it? James and Lily are kind of already mentioned in the second phrase of the first prophecy, aren't they? But Harry *asked* Dumbledore, essentially, does that mean what I think it means? And DD said, I'm afraid so. I think Rowling means for us and for Harry to take Dumbledore's word for it. However it works out, however Harry manages to defeat Voldemort, I don't believe it will be a result of the first prophecy being, essentially, a cheat. I might be more inclined to believe it if it weren't for the straightforwardness I think we see in the nature of the second prophecy. I think we're supposed to pay attention to the second prophecy; we get it first in the narrative, and what other *reason is there for it to be there* besides as a guide for the reader to use on the first prophecy? My guess is that Harry will "die at the hand of" Voldemort, and that something about the way that happens will destroy LV. Whether Harry gets revived somehow to live a long, happy life and have a bunch of kids...well, that's another prophecy. Sandy From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 23:22:08 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 23:22:08 -0000 Subject: Dark Magic is not Evil Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82138 Oooh, another excellent discussion on Dark Magic! Time to chime in with something that I've been trying to work out for a while... I've engaged in this debate previously, and although I found it to be an interesting one, the major point that I carried out of it was that, all in all, we know frightfully little about the Dark Arts in the Potterverse. There's lots of conjecture, and very little canon; OoP didn't really help things, either. We do know that the 'Dark Arts' are popularly perceived (at least by readers, and possibly by the fictional Wizarding World public) as being directly connected with 'evil.' Steve (bboy_mn) suggested in message #52478 that they might inherently involve destructive and/or consumptive magics. I think that this is a very good suggestion, but is not canonical fact as of yet aside from the "Flesh, Blood and Bone" potion that Voldemort uses in GoF, and perhaps the Diary that Riddle used to possess Ginny Weasley, as Jen Reese pointed out recently in message #82013. JOdel has also suggested (in message #53565) that prolonged exposure to or prolonged use of Dark Magic might result in an evil wizard. Both of these are excellent ideas, and I'm sure that there are more out there. But to play it safe, they aren't canon... *yet.* What I want to point out is that, contrary to well thought-out ideas that attempt to connect Dark Magic with evil directly, we're not really given a situation where practitioners of the Dark Arts are across the board 'evil.' Once again, JKR is not giving us an easy Black and White situation; shades of gray abound, and it's all tempered by the ability of people to choose for themselves what to do with their own lives. So, what are the dark arts, anyways? Most of the students at Hogwarts take a class called "Defense Against the Dark Arts," as we all know. But it occurs to me that we don't really learn too much about Dark *Magic* from this class, with the sole exception of the Unforgivable Curses. So, what exactly do they study during these lessons? Mostly *creatures.* Lockhart reviews Cornish Pixies with the class (CoS, Ch.6, 101) but does mostly essay writing after that. Lupin covers animals extensively, as we learn from Crouch!Moody's summary: "boggarts, Red Caps, hinkypunks, grindylows, kappas, and werewolves." (GoF, Ch.14, 211) But Lupin didn't cover too many defenses against *magic* per se. And Crouch!Moody covers the Unforgivable Curses ? although according to MoM guidelines, he's "supposed to cover countercurses and leave it at that." (GoF, Ch.14, 211) In PS/SS, Quirrell's classes are described as "a bit of a joke." (PS/SS, Ch.8, 134) Umbridge's courses, of course, are as useless as Quirrell's, and with the added disadvantage of being far more annoying. So, that's *all* we hear about from five years of this class. In a sense, DADA would appear to be more of an anti-`Care of Magical Creatures' (something like, `Defense Against Dark Creatures') class, than it is actually about the Dark Arts. Crouch!Moody: "But you're behind ? very behind ? on dealing with curses," said Moody. (GoF, Ch.14, 211) This is interesting, considering that the students actually seem fairly well versed in curses without having ever received any blatant tutelage on the matter; we've seen Petrificus Totalus in PS/SS, Tarantallegra and Rictusempra (CoS, Ch.11, 192); Furnunculus and Densaugeo (GoF, Ch.18, 298); the Impediment Curse, Jelly-legs, the "slug-burping" curse, the Bat Bogey Hex... even the *Reductor* spell is a curse... so, when Harry cut through the hedge in the maze during the Third Task, he was *cursing* the hedge? Whatever the case, the students use these on each other frequently, without having been formally educated in their use. And both Moody (see above quote) and Sirius (in GoF, Ch.27, 531) associate `curses' with the Dark Arts. In other words, if this is the case (and I'm not saying that it is; I'm saying that we can't be sure), then all of our heroes regularly use some form of the Dark Arts against each other. But spellwork aside, there are other elements of Dark Magic too: in CoS, when Lucius is selling items at Borgin and Burkes, he says: "- and as you see, certain of these poisons might make it appear -" (CoS, Ch.4, 51) So, some poisons can be a part of what the WW considers Dark Magic. But oddly enough, Lucius says *certain* poisons; not poisons generally ? this, of course, leaves room for the distinct possibility that certain *other* poisons might be useful in, um, non-Dark magic. (Do we call that `Light' Magic? I dunno. It seems so clich?.) Voldemort calls "Flesh, Blood, and Bone" an "old piece of Dark Magic, the potion that revived me tonight..." (GoF, Ch.33, 656) So, potions can be part of it, as well. [As to whether or not *old* = *ancient,* well, that's a semantic debate that I'll stay out of for the time- being. ;-) ] So, in sum, we know that the Dark Arts at least involve poisons, potions, and curses. Since the DADA classes primarily focus on creatures, I'll add them to the list, however reluctantly... I especially dislike the easy categorization of creatures who are born a certain way (against their will) as *evil* or *dark,* because in a way, that assessment contradicts the anti-discrimination goals that we see developing in the rest of the series' plot. Anyways... It seems like the Dark Arts involve a lot of magic that our heroes use frequently, which is odd, because when we take a close look at the Wizarding World ethos, we'll find that Dark Magic is used as a scapegoat for a great many things that go wrong. In fact, it seems to be quite commonplace for people to blame the Dark Arts for any event or situation in which the identity of the perpetrator is unknown. For instance, in PS/SS, when Gringotts is broken into, the Daily Prophet reads: "Investigations continue into the break-in at Gringotts on 31 July, widely believed to be the work of Dark wizards or witches unknown." (PS/SS, Ch.8, 141) So, is it unlikely that a wizard using non-Dark Magic would have the ability to do this? In CoS, we see this again when Filch accuses Harry of petrifying Mrs. Norris, and Dumbledore says: "It would take Dark Magic of the most advanced ?" (CoS, Ch.9, 142) Again, is non-Dark Magic incapable of doing this? JKR is still being vague... what's the distinction between the two? What makes Dark Magic Dark, and non-Dark Magic, um, non-Dark? Finally, in PoA, in the Shrieking Shack Hermione says: "If you don't mind me asking, how ? how did you get out of Azkaban, if you didn't use Dark Magic." (PoA, Ch.19. 370) So even Hermione suggests (through omission) that non-Dark magic might not be able to help a wizard break out of Azkaban. Later, we learn that Hermione's third-year assessment is incorrect, because Dumbledore says that "I could break out [Azkaban] of course, but what a waste of time..." (OoP, Ch.27, 620) And if McGonagall's right, and Dumbledore is "too noble" (PS/SS, Ch.1, 11) to use the Dark Arts, then we have to assume that he'd get out using acceptable magic. Or maybe Dumbledore *would* use some form of Dark Magic? Taking a closer look, we can note that it's possible for Dark Magic to actually have some positive, non-evil uses. In CoS, we see Hagrid in Knockturn Alley, notorious for its Dark Arts shops. What's he doing there? "I was lookin' fer a Flesh-Eatin' Slug Repellent," growled Hagrid. "They're ruinin' the school cabbages." (CoS, Ch.4, 55) So, assuming that Hagrid's not lying here (and I know that there are folk out there who believe just that), we see that the Dark Arts might even *possibly* have some positive uses, i.e. Flesh-Eating Slug Repellent, which doesn't really seem like such a bad thing. And Hagrid seems to think that it can be found in Knockturn Alley, which would indicate that he thinks that the Repellent might be a Dark item. Hermione also has a take on curses and their relevance: "[Slinkhard] says that counterjinxes are improperly named," said Hermione promptly. "He says `counterjinx' is just a name people give their jinxes to when they want to make them sound more acceptable." "Mr. Slinkhard doesn't like jinxes, does he? But I think they can be very useful when they're used defensively." (OoP, Ch.15, 316-17) In addition, in post #52468, I commented that it would seem that the quest for immortality can be achieved through Dark Magic, via the methods that Voldemort has used to try to achieve it. But also, it can be achieved through `Light' magic, as we see with Nicolas Flamel and the Philosopher's Stone. So, if both can accomplish the same end, then we have to question exactly what the distinction between them is supposed to be. To this day, JKR hasn't gifted us with the definitions of `hex' vs. `curse' vs. `jinx,' never mind the actual distinctions between `Light' and `Dark' magic. All this is irrelevant, to an extent, because I believe that we have absolutely zero canon to suggest that the simple *use* of Dark Magic is enough to qualify one as evil. We learn, in GoF, that "[Mr. Malfoy] says Durmstrang takes a far more sensible line than Hogwarts about the Dark Arts. Durmstrang students actually learn them, not just the defense rubbish we do..." (GoF, Ch.11, 165) So, unless we're willing to assume that all of the students at Durmstrang are evil on the basis that they are learning (and therefore are likely to be regularly *using*) the Dark Arts, (and IMO, this is a totally ludicrous proposition), then we must be fair and conclude that those who learn and practice the Dark Arts aren't automatically 'evil,' on this singular basis. Of course, the only Durmstrang student we really get to meet is Krum, and I don't think it's out of line to say that I think Krum's an okay guy, whether he's learning the Dark Arts at school or not. And it's definitely a stretch to assert that Krum is evil, especially since we really don't have anything as evidence *except* for the fact that he's learning the Dark Arts. And again, our heroes regularly curse other students, and I don't for a minute register that as evidence of `evil.' Heck, Harry uses the Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix Lestrange... and I'll go out on a limb here and conclude that *Harry* isn't evil. ;-) So, clearly, the prima facie evidence suggests that the mere use of the Dark Arts doesn't make one evil, and this is a very important distinction, because as we know... Choice is the key. "Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was famous for it at school. "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins that nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." (GoF, Ch.27, 531) But we learn later that Snape "is now no more a Death Eater than I [Dumbledore] am." (GoF, Ch.30, 591) So, in other words, what we learn is that people can choose for *themselves* what they do with their lives. Dumbledore belabors this point constantly ? it is *choice* that matters. Therefore, we must conclude that those who know and practice the Dark Arts aren't necessarily 'evil,' because a person always retains the ability to make the distinction between right and wrong. Clearly Snape was able to make that distinction at some point. So, I'm thinking that it's possible that there's nothing *really* wrong with the magic you use... what's probably far more significant is your intended goal by using it. If you're trying to use Dark Magic to accomplish something worthwhile, then I don't see how you can be evil. If you're trying to use non-Dark magic to accomplish something vile, then I don't see how you can be entirely good. A complex ethical system, worthy of a great author: many shades of grey ? almost no Black and White. Gotta love it. ;-) -Tom From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 00:23:23 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:23:23 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82139 > Pippin: > But Voldemort doesn't know that the prophesied one is the *only* > one who can kill him (either must die at the hand of the other), so > he actually needn't fear Dumbledore or the Aurors, whom he has > been avoiding for so long. Erin: I don't agree with that. I think the phrase "the one with the power to destroy the Dark Lord" pretty much means the ONLY one with that power. That's pretty basic. I mean, why else even bother to have a prophecy if it's just gonna say "here's yet another person capable of destroying the Dark Lord". Voldemort may fear death more than everything else, but that doesn't mean he doesn't fear other things as well. Dumbledore and crew may not be able to kill him outright, but they could still hurt him terribly...perhaps rip him out of his body again. Or even capture him, or feed his soul to his own dementors. Technically he would still be alive. So Voldemort is right to fear them. Erin From o_caipora at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 00:32:16 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:32:16 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82140 "jwcpgh" wrote: > The real problem of course, is Kreachur (boos and hisses welcome). > Who in the Order now has the power to shut him up? Can he be > bequeathed just as any other piece of family property can be? > *winces* If so, then you'd think he would be bound to his inheritor > as he was to his previous owner and compelled to keep that person's > secrets and his silence. That's easy. The Blacks had a retirement plan for house elves, when they could no longer carry a tea tray. Just hand Kreachur a magically heavy or unbalanced tea tray, and he'll insist on doing the right thing. From urghiggi at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 00:35:19 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:35:19 -0000 Subject: OoP Loose ends (was: Repercussions for Fred/George) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82141 > > Jen wrote: > > Any other repercussions that need a little explanation in Book 6? > > Another Jen... > Two things that we have discussed ad nauseum but I will be looking > for the play out, 1)How will Harry and Snape interact? Harry's always > had reasons to dislike Snape but the hatred coursing through him when > he sees Snape for the first time after Sirius'death, that reached a > whole new level. He's using Snape as a scapegoat, and while I'm > hoping he gets over it, I don't think it will be a neat and tidy > process. The other situation: Will Draco and the children of other > DE's be back? And if so, how can school possibly be conducted as per > normal? And urghiggi chimed in: And where WAS that Luna Lovegood on the Hogwarts Express back to London??? At first I thought this was irrelevant -- she is after all not one of the "official" Gryffindor group, I figured maybe she was just off with the Ravenclaws (though they obviously ostracize her). But the more I think about it the more it bugs me. She was in there slugging with our heros at the MoM, she was in the hospital wing hanging out while Ron & Hermione were recovering, she was having a soul-baring (and apparently pivotal) confab with HP near the end of the term -- and then, zip. Not in the compartment with the other 5 Raiders of the MoM, not in the hallway, not named among the DA crowd aiming hexes at Draco, Crabbe & Goyle. And it sort of bugged me that neither Harry nor anybody else in that compartment seemed to even wonder where she was. No wondering aloud; no idle internal questioning from Harry. Guess Luna's weirdness still marginalizes her, despite her great show of loyalty to the other 5 in that compartment, and Harry's nascent feelings of pity for her. So where WAS she? Ridin' on a thestral back to London? Got excused early to go look for snorkacks with daddy in Sweden? No info whatsoever. And you know what -- that mention of Ginny in the compartment reading "The Quibbler" seems almost to have been put there on purpose as an echo of the trip TO Hogwarts at the beginning of the year, when it was of course Luna reading the Quibbler. It seems to have been inserted as a reminder of who was there before and isn't, now. Somebody's got some 'splainin to do.... Urghiggi, Chgo From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Oct 3 00:38:44 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:38:44 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82142 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > I subscribe to Four House theory. James was a Gryffindor, Sirius > the good Slytherin, Lupin a Ravenclaw, and Peter a Hufflepuff. I > was converted by the Sorting Hat's latest song, in > which it says that it always tries to unite the Houses in the face of > external foes. > We know that Sirius's ancestor Phineas Nigellus was in > Slytherin and there are snake themed adornments all over > Grimmauld Place. Malfoy tells us that all his family have been in > Slytherin and he is Sirius's first cousin once removed. Sirius > was labelled a blood traitor long before he joined the Order. Did > he get burnt off the tapestry and have to leave home because > he'd switched Houses at school? Now me: I don't know that I'd necessarily take Draco's word about this. His family allegiance is strong enough that he may already not consider Sirius a member of the extended family because of Sirius'attitude about the pure blood business. Draco may then very well say that all his family have been in Slytherin because Sirius, the blood traitor Gryffindor, is not worthy of being considered family in Draco's eyes. But I do wonder about Sirius' sorting. I think a case could be made for either Slytherin or Gryffindor. He could have been sorted into Slytherin and have fought against it, adding to the bad blood between himself and Snape. I can also see that being the case if he and James had become friends pre-Hogwarts, as James would already have been a lifeline out of the blood purity environment. On the other hand, I can also see Sirius as the first Black sorted into Gryffindor, thus causing all sorts of consternation in his family and adding to the stress there. Pippin: > Pettigrew is the poster child for misplaced loyalty. And Hufflepuff > affiliation would fit with the way everyone underestimates his > abilities. Me: That's true, but this is one of the reasons I have a problem with the MWPP in all four houses theory. If Peter was not in a house with James and Sirius, why would he have become their tag-along? What bond exists that would throw them together? He doesn't really seem to fit with them and if he was in a different house, their opportunities for interaction seem even less likely. Unless there is a link between Peter and either or both James and Sirius that we don't yet know about... Pippin: > Lupin is the most bookish and learned of the Marauders. He > also seems a bit guilty about wishing for a Gryffindor victory at > Quidditch. Me: Remus is the other reason I have a proble with the 4 houses idea. Why would the other 3 notice his repeated absences if he was not in the same house? Why would the other three have the level of interaction with him to figure out the werewolf thing and decide to attempt the Animagus transformation if they were only thrown together on the occasional basis by sometimes being in the same class? Pippin: > I know it seems unlikely that they could have belonged to > different houses, but they *did* have place to meet - the > passage behind the mirror which is now blocked. > What would they have needed it for if they were all members of > the same house, and could safely discuss whatever they wanted > in the privacy of their dormitory? > Unless there were others in their year that, for whatever reason, were not part of the gang and they couldn't be assured of privacy in their dorm. I'm still pretty ambivalent about the 4 house idea for MWPP, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if JKR has a trick up her sleeve to make it all work out. Marianne From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 00:50:11 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:50:11 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82143 To all who are entangled in this thread: I've read what you all have written, starting w/ Dumbledad's original posted question, and see that there's still trouble arriving at consensus about this thing. There's speculation that the real clue is elsewhere in the chapter; that the "neither" could mean Lily and James; that the prophecy doesn't really reveal much to Harry, Dumbledore, Voldemort, or the reader; that the prophecy is supposed to be understood as Dumbledore understands it... Awhile back I posted on this in response to some others (post number 77596, if anyone's interested) that included some grammar breakdown (a bit), restating the prophecy several times to include the several ways we could interpret either, neither and other. What I always found most interesting was that the end sounded as if it referred to three people. Just had to add one more complication to the mix... hg. From octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 00:54:01 2003 From: octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com (belsum) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:54:01 -0000 Subject: Slytherin and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82144 > Dumbledad. wrote: > "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. "There's not > a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You- > Know-Who was one." > > At this point in the plot, Hagrid knows Sirius well and believes he > went very very bad. belsum: I believe Sirius was in Slytherin as well. Thanks for the great canon interpretation to support it! Then I start to wonder how James and Sirius ended up such great friends. Was there more Slytherin/Griffindor openness in their generation? Were they friends from before they went to Hogwarts? Of course I'm also convinced that the Evanses, not the Potters, are the magical side of Harry's family. I know there's only a few of us. Can we buy a pontoon and serve snacks? And we need a name! Wanting to explore the waters in the Bay, belsum From fashionmenu at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 02:22:20 2003 From: fashionmenu at hotmail.com (dublinaaireland) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 02:22:20 -0000 Subject: Vela or Veela Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82145 Hello, Was listening to a song called Anywhere Is by Enya and came across the line; 'no Vela, no Orion'. Vela was pronounced like JKR's Veela. Just had a bit of search on the net for Vela and came across these site/s. All of it ties into the mythology of Jason and the Argonauts: http://www.dibonsmith.com/vel_con.htm http://www.rasnz.org.nz/Stars/Vela.htm http://www.stargazers.iinet.net.au/vela.htm Just thought I'd post it for interests sake. D From yswahl at stis.net Fri Oct 3 02:43:06 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 02:43:06 -0000 Subject: FINALLY someone else notices Luna's absence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82146 I have posted at least 4 times since June my humbled but increasingly exasperated opinion that Luna was obviously not on Hogwarts express and finally someone commented....... shows that persistence pays off.. ....thanks urghiggi! BTW even the holiest of holy canon, the HP Lexicon, is wrong in its summary of the last chapter when stating that Luna WAS on the train. JKR has started almost every book with summer events prior to the Hogwarts year mentioned on the spine of each book, and Book 6 will be no exception. A lot will be happening before the Hogwarts Express returns in September. As for now, Luna is probably still at Hogwarts looking for her stuff. There is even canon in CoS supporting a student staying at least a few days after the term has ended. Luna and her dad will almost definitely never make it to Sweden -- LV is too ticked about his Azkaban imprisoned death eaters to let off the hook the only "free press" in town that caused the disaster in the first plane. IMHO her dad will not make it past page 60 in book 6 and will be the first victim of the summer. There are at least two agendas that JKR can deal with here -- freedom of the press (no matter how silly) and persecution of students who are different (as ddone so effectively by Jerry Spinelli in Stargirl). The soap box may be too tempting for JKR not to step up on it as she has done so often before in the series. Both can be accomplished while moving the basic storyline forward. original post urghiggi And where WAS that Luna Lovegood on the Hogwarts Express back to London??? At first I thought this was irrelevant -- she is after all not one of the "official" Gryffindor group, I figured maybe she was just off with the Ravenclaws (though they obviously ostracize her). But the more I think about it the more it bugs me. Guess Luna's weirdness still marginalizes her, despite her great show of loyalty to the other 5 in that compartment, and Harry's nascent feelings of pity for her. So where WAS she? Ridin' on a thestral back to London? Got excused early to go look for snorkacks with daddy in Sweden? No info whatsoever. And you know what -- that mention of Ginny in the compartment reading "The Quibbler" seems almost to have been put there on purpose as an echo of the trip TO Hogwarts at the beginning of the year, when it was of course Luna reading the Quibbler. It seems to have been inserted as a reminder of who was there before and isn't, now. Somebody's got some 'splainin to do.... From yswahl at stis.net Fri Oct 3 02:50:16 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 02:50:16 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82147 I think that one way to figure out how the original Trelawney prophecy will play out is to compare it to the Trelawney prophecy in POA and see how that one played out. I wonder if the doubling has any special implication as to the use of a time turner.... could it {gasp} be involved again in the second prophecy? samnanya From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 03:06:01 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 03:06:01 -0000 Subject: Wands - how important? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82148 Okay, if this has been discussed ad nauseam, forgive me, but I did check the archives... Just what part do wands play, *really*? They seem to be a tool that everyone has and even, to some extent, reflect the owner's personality (see the weighing of the wands chapter in GoF), but though Mr Ollivander tells Harry in PS that the wand chooses the wizard, it doesn't seem to be impossible to use someone else's wand if necessary - Lockhart uses Ron's wand, though with a backlash (because it's broken, not because it's Ron's). Don't quote me on this, but I'd swear someone was using Dad's old school wand in one of the books.(Neville?) And Harry made magic happen, if crudely, before he knew he was a wizard. Hagrid has been performing magic without a functional wand (maybe he does have the bits of broken wand in his umbrella, but why isn't it playing up as Ron's did in CoS?) A wand might be a focus for trained magic, but is it strictly necessary? Sue B From tammy at mauswerks.net Fri Oct 3 04:37:02 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:37:02 -0400 Subject: "Either must die at the hand of the other . . . ." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F7CC4AE.31943.1DE100C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 82149 Okay, let's play a bit with the semantics here, shall we? Just the little phrase, "either must die at the hand of the other". I'm not gonna go into sentence deconstruction, since I haven't done that in over twenty years, though I found a great deal of enjoyment in 's deconstruction of the 'either -- neither' portion of the prophecy. I may not be able to do the deconstruction myself, but I can still read it correctly! Anyway, we hear a lot about how Harry must become a murderer or let Voldythingy take over the WW. Okay, so that's how Harry sees it, if I remember my OOP right. After all, the prophecy clearly states "either MUST DIE" -- and please note, it says 'either', not 'both', so I don't see any "one takes the other with him" scenarios here. One or the other of them MUST kill the other one. That's what it says. No touchy-feely "Harry saves Tom's life at the last moment" scenario, either, though I can't completely rule out a brink-of-death redemption for what was once Tom Riddle. However, even though we must take Harry's thoughts into consideration, and he thinks in the term, Murder, it still doesn't mean that Harry has to become a *murderer*. There is a HUMONGOUS BIG difference between someone dying at your hand, and you becoming a murderer. You can have killed a person and still not be a murderer. Murder implies forethought and planning (first degree), or at least a fit of anger and malice (second degree). Any laywers out there care to define the degrees of murder better? But there is a fine line between premeditated (carefully planned-out) murder, and killing someone in self-defense, who is GOING to kill you if you don't kill him first. For Harry, I feel, it won't be anything like hunting Voldythingy down and slaughtering him in revenge for his parents, but will be a battle like we've seen so many times before. Voldemort comes after Harry, and Harry simply does what he must. I seriously doubt that Harry could EVER become a *murderer* -- he doesn't have it in him to *ENJOY* planning the death of anyone and carrying out that plan. However, he does have the stout heart and courage to do what he must even though he is afraid, that is needed in a good soldier in battle, and this is war, remember. Soldiers who kill the enemy in battle are killers, yes, but they are no more *murderers* than are people who, under attack in their own home by burglers, grab the closest screwdriver and start slashing to defend themselves. Harry is still in shock over the things that have been happening, and hearing that he MUST kill or be killed is just one more huge thing to digest. I can only hope that Harry, somehow, comes to understand the difference between *murder* and self-defense. It will help him cope with the terrible aftereffects, should he survive that final encounter. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From ilojika at yahoo.es Thu Oct 2 20:01:58 2003 From: ilojika at yahoo.es (ilojika) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:01:58 -0000 Subject: International book versions & character names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82150 Lui wrote: > Even though in the Italian edition there > is a foreword explicitly dealing with the way the translator worked > on names, this doesn't change the fact that the choices she made > are awful. > After this, there are serious mistakes in actually understanding > the meaning of certain sentences that have been translated in a > completely wrong way, thus compromising the faithfulness to the > original and the reader's understanding of what the hell is going > on! > Thirdly and more generally, the nuances and details of JKR's > writing have been nearly totally erased by very poor translating choices. I > know that a translation is never going to be up to the original, > but even I (not a translation expert in anyway!) could come up with > better ways of translating certain expressions in Italian! Hi I?m glad you bring the point because it?s the same with the Spanish translation. The bits the translators think that are too difficult to translate into Spanish are skipped off. They give you a summary. Honest! They don?t pay any atention to the details either. I?ve even noticed mistakes when translating idioms, etc. Characters?names are not translated. It?s Ok. But in PS Trevor the Toad became Trevor the Tortoise. Why? They didn?t bother in tranlating the animals?names in FB&WTFT: Is it too hard translating Augurey into Augurio? Moreover thay had translated Flobberworm in GoF (Gusarajo) but they kept Flobberworm in FB. Does it make sense? At least translators could "try". That?s what they are paid for. ilogica (i?ll stick to the english version, thanks) From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 2 20:09:30 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 08:09:30 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia's protection of Harry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031003080535.00a40bb0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82151 At 16:13 1/10/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Kagome > >The fact that he's able to touch Harry, and his indication that it negates >the sacrifice of Lily, implies that it might mean the negation of >Dumbledore's charm, which built on the sacrifice Lily had made. It's like >removing a brick from the bottom of a stack; the rest of the stack becomes >unstable, and if pushed the right way, can topple very easily. The >protection Harry enjoyed up until this point is now gone, meaning that it >could weaken and even eventually topple the protection he has at Privet >Drive. > >I'm not saying it would, but the implication is there. He may no longer be >protected at Privet Drive, not with the blood charm, at least. Not if it >relied on the protection he had gained through Lily's sacrifice, since we >know that is now gone. I was given permission from a poster in another group to share this. Marci - Obsessive HP Fans The protection lies in blood. As long as Harry has a place to call home, he is safe. This is why Dumbledore sent Harry to live with the Dursleys, not allowing Sirius to keep him. So, Harry's protection is Petunia and Dudley. Now, on to Dumbledore's famed look of triumph. This very blood of Lily's, Petunia's and Dudley's is now in Voldemort. Right? Voldemort sees it as protection for himself and/or a way to touch Harry. But, has Voldy now sealed the one thing he wanted to break? I can see Voldy going after Petunia and Dudley, but then he and Harry would remain. Harry's protection would lie in Voldemort. Am I making any sense??? Wormtail tried to get him to use someone else's blood. Will his decision to use Harry backfire? If he really wants to harm Harry, he'll have to do himself in. From minaclare at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 2 20:31:56 2003 From: minaclare at sympatico.ca (Mina-Clare Moseley) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 16:31:56 -0400 Subject: Foreign DADA Teacher-- Why it won't happen Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82152 aussie: > JOB REQUIREMENTS: > a) From an area where magic is ancient and established - (so if USA > or Australia, maybe native populations). > b) Experienced with dangerous magical areas (if not fighting Dark > wizards, then dnagerous creatures) - (Dragon colonies are in Peru > and New Zealand) > c) a traditional Brit ally would fit in nicely (does it seem I am > bias to Australia and New Zealand? .. lol) > > ...edited... > > SUGGESTION: > ... that sounds like a laid back, back packing, quidditch playing, > aussie, or Kiwi. ~aussie~ bboy_mn: > In general, if it was someone from North or South America, it would > have to be, in my opinion, someone from an aboriginal tribe. Although, > I have think of one dark acception; a VooDoo > priest/priestess/witchdoctor from New Orleans, they would certainly > know a lot about dark magic. However, I think JKR said we wouldn't see > any American wizard or witches. > > My next best areas are Africa, certainly dark magic there, Middle > East, plenty of ancient magic, or Asian, certainly a mystical and > magical region. >Florentine: > >I would like to suggest the possibility of a Chinese DADA >sorcerer/sorceress. He/she would be skilled in martial arts and >driving out demons. He/she could also give the students some >instructions on Buddhist philosphy. That could compensate for the >current lack of psychological and ethic counselling at Hogwarts, IMHO. Mina-Clare: While the idea of a foreign DADA teacher is intriguing, I've always felt that the magic we are shown in Harry Potter is not a world spread. What I mean by this, is just as Muggle cultures develop very different from one another, wizards from other continents would have different magic. While most of Europe has probably adapted to this type of Magic (which I have dubbed "Merlin" magic, due to many mentions of him in the text), I can't believe the entire world has. Yes, Canada, the United States, Australia and New Zealand would have strong influences, but they have their own native influences (Native American tribes, Aborigianals). If Canadian wizard society is as much as a "mosaic" as Muggle society, then they magic they use in every day life could be *vastly* different than British Wizard. My main argument against Foreign wizards comes from places like Asia and Africa. There is no way they cast spells in Latin, in the same style as Harry and his friends. I have no doubt in my mind that Asia uses an old Chinese dialect as opposed to Latin. This pretty much discounts any of Floretine's notion of a Chinese DADA Professor (sorry, I love the idea, I just can't see it) This would explain why the Tri-Wizard Tournament uses the same three schools each time its been held. These are the three Wizarding School in the region that are pretty much evenly matched, because they draw from the same "well". All of their spells are the same, yielding (basically) the same results. The only variant in the equation is the skill and power of the caster. So why will we never see a foreign teacher? Because their way of spell casting will be completely different from the students of Hogwarts, neither will be able to catch up. This is also the reason that "foreign exchange students" are an impossibility. ~Mina-Clare From teseddon at kpmg.ca Thu Oct 2 20:33:02 2003 From: teseddon at kpmg.ca (voldermort_is_harry) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:33:02 -0000 Subject: Luna, Hagrid, Thestrals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82153 >In OP pg 762, when talking about the Thestrals, Luna says "Hagrid >says they're very good at finding places their riders are looking >for". However, on pg 438 Hagrid says "I've been keepin' a couple o' >creatures saved fer yer O.W.L. year. As Luna is a fourth year, how >would she know what Hagrid said about the thestrals? Well, this is the way I see it: Luna comes to school in her 2nd year and sees the Thestrals pulling the carriages (remember, she witnessed her Mother's death at a young age) and tries to tell her fellow 2nd years. They, of course, can't see anything and start mocking Luna (perhaps this would be the beginning of the nickname "Loony"?). Hagrid, in the process of rounding up the 1st years, notices the ruckus that Luna has caused and makes a mental note of who the girl is, so as to let her know later that she did indeed see what she saw. Just a thought. -bin From rose at swicegood.com Thu Oct 2 20:34:42 2003 From: rose at swicegood.com (roseswicegood) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:34:42 -0000 Subject: centaurs and Trelawney Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82154 Ok--second post in the same day. What is the group's opinion of the centaur in Hogwarts? What does all this mean? Trelawney cannot possibly compete with him as a divination teacher. Does Dumbledore have her stay at Hogwarts because she is the bearer of the prophecy? So--I have questions, Radioshack has answers, I know...:) rose From topfor at aol.com Thu Oct 2 23:42:44 2003 From: topfor at aol.com (smtopliff) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 23:42:44 -0000 Subject: My two cents re:the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82155 My take on the Prophecy in OOP has been different than other posts I have seen> the Prophecy states:pg.841 US ed.: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.." Okay, if you're like me, you've probably memorized this Prophecy. But I wondered if there weren't some things that were overlooked in it? Here's my thoughts-- First, what if the word 'approaches' was applied in the immediate context. Was someone physically approaching the place where Sybill and DD were meeting? A person who had the power to defeat in some way,shape, or form Voldy himself? How would that affect the rest of the Prophecy and how it is interpreted? (Well, that's part two...) The word 'born' can have more than one meaning. 'born', meaning to be brought forth into the world, and 'borne', to be brought forth or carried....so, I ask, what if the correct interpretation should have been "borne"? What if that person physically walking/flying/floo- travelling towards Sybill and DD was a person who is going to be brought to either the Longbottoms or the Potters ( I think the latter) Brought to them at the end of July....what if that person is Severus Snape?!?! Snape's been marked by Voldy with the Dark Mark, although I think that 'as an equal' may be a sticking point, but he does have power that Voldemort doesn't know about perhaps--as a legilimens? I couldn't tell you why one has to die so the other can live but I bet JKR knows....... AND, Snape was brought to them by (who else?) Dorcas Meadowes, the one that Voldemort personally offed; she and Lily were (in my sad little world)very close friends way-back-when at Hogwarts. Dorcas was, I have reasoned, present with Lily at the Lake after exams when Snape was jinxed by James Potter--as viewed in the Pensieve by Harry when he peeked (shame on you Harry!)Which, to wrap it all up, was why the memory was labelled as "Snape's Worst Memory." He was humiliated in front of the girl he had strong feelings for--not Lily, as has been argued in previous posts, but Dorcas. p.s. I still haven't decided if Dorcas herself brought Snape to them or whether her death at the hands of Voldemort brought him forth. Hey, how did Mad Eye know that Voley personally killed Dorcas and not one of his Death Eaters? smt--interested in your feedback From kimberley42 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 00:37:06 2003 From: kimberley42 at yahoo.com (Kim) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:37:06 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: phoenix life cycles In-Reply-To: <0766BE05.65DAD00B.02A5D73B@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Yahtzee63 at a... wrote: > Traditionally, I know, the phoenix is supposed to live for 100 years before dying in flames and being reborn. But is this canonical in the Potterverse? I can't remember whether JKR mentions it or not. To me, it seems as though Dumbledore has seen Fawkes go through a few cycles, and as Dumbledore's not as old as Nicholas Flamel, that would seem to suggest that Fawkes dies/is reborn far more frequently. But all my flipping through the first two books has yielded no answers -- maybe I'm just missing it. Can anyone clarify this for me? Please feel free to email me offlist, if you have the answer -- > > > > Yahtzee In JKR's Comic Relief Book, "Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them", there is a listing for "PHOENIX" on page 32: "The phoenix is a magnificent, swan-sized, scarlet bird with a long golden tail, beak, and talons. It nests on mountain peaks and is found in Egypt, India, and China. The phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate, bursting into flames when its body begins to fail and rising again from the ashes as a chick. The phoenix is a gentle creature that has never been known to kill and eats only herbs. Like the Diricawl (see page 9), it can disappear and reappear at will. Phoenix song is magical; it is reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure. Phoenix tears have powerful healing properties." So, I'm sorry, Yahtzee, but there is no canonical lifespan listed. I do find it interesting that it indicates that Harry is, indeed, pure of heart (for those of you arguing that Harry is too nasty a teenager to be a true hero). ---Kimberley From TanzGabu at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 01:00:21 2003 From: TanzGabu at hotmail.com (tanzgabu) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:00:21 -0000 Subject: Ancient rune (was Death Chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82157 A lot of people have been suggesting that the rune is Eihwaz, and although Sowulo was mentioned, I would have to go on the side of Eihwaz too. I think it was only mentioned that it's the rune of protection, and things like that... But it's also the rune that motivates someone to achieve a purpose, which also could apply to Harry. One thing I noticed though, is that Eihwaz is the thirteenth rune in the futhark, and also represents rebirth, coinciding with the Death tarot card. Also, it's the right of passage into adulthood, i.e. the rebirth into a new life. If JK purposely used a rune, I think that she probably took this into consideration, what with all of her Phoenix references. Eihwaz would fit in perfectly with the Phoenix. Lastly, something I didn't get off the top of my head, is that Eihwaz is "the passage through which we must enter the realm of Hell in order to gain the knowledge and acceptance of our own mortality, as well as those mysteries which can only be learned from the dark Lady of the dead." It also states that "The process is a truly frightening one, but it is something we all must go through if we are to confront our deepest fears and emerge with the kind of wisdom that cannot be taught but must be experienced. EIHWAZ is the gateway to this wisdom, and lies between life (jera) and rebirth (perth)." I just thought that this strongly coincided with what Harry was going through... =) -tanzgabu From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Oct 3 02:54:49 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:54:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin and Sirius Black Message-ID: <177.2094e271.2cae3ef9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82158 In a message dated 10/2/03 8:56:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com writes: > > Of course I'm also convinced that the Evanses, not the Potters, are the > magical side of Harry's family. I know there's only a few of us. Snape, during the Pensieve scene in OOTP calls Lily a Mudblood, so how could the Evans family be magical? We learn in COS, a Mudblood is the derogatory term for a someone coming from a non-magical family. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Oct 3 03:00:01 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:00:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin and Sirius Black Message-ID: <9.19b8e8bb.2cae4031@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82159 In a message dated 10/2/03 4:42:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tim_regan82 at hotmail.com writes: > "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. "There's not > a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You- > Know-Who was one." > > At this point in the plot, Hagrid knows Sirius well and believes he > went very very bad. > Hagrid is speaking in PS/SS in generalities. Plus, even though Sirius wasn't in Slytherin, he has ties to it. His brother Regulus, probably was in Slytherin and his ancestor, Phineas Nigellus was a Headmaster and was in Slytherin as we see him painted in Slytherin colors. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 04:08:47 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 04:08:47 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82160 Salit: ..edited... My impression is that wands are only allowed for qualified wizards, that is, wizards who at least completed their OWLs. bboy_mn: The law that regulates use of wands by students is 'The Decree for the Restriction of UNDERAGE Wizardry'. Since Hagrid is nearly 70 years old, the Underage restriction does not apply to him. I think three years of formal schooling and a lifetime of experience would qualify him for a wand, if his name was formally cleared. Kneazle: I agree with salit. No OWLs, no wand, even if you are an adult. This also may be an example of bigotry. Guilty or innocent, Hagrid's a half-giant. Fudge's ministry is not going to go out of its way to help "that sort" get legal access to a wand. From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Oct 3 03:15:53 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:15:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spy!Remus/(was Re: Crying wolf?) Message-ID: <5f.3fa26303.2cae43e9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82161 In a message dated 10/2/03 12:37:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lbiles at flash.net writes: > > I've seen this thought come up over time in a few different threads > and it always confuses me. In rereading PoA however many times I've > done so now I have never managed to come away with this impression. > What is it that makes people think that Sirius suspects Remus > of being the betrayer instead of Pettigrew? > > leb > In POA, during the Shrieking Shack scene, Peter asks Lupin, if they had switched why wasn't Lupin told, Lupin replies that Sirius may have suspected him, and then asks Sirius is that correct? Sirius answers forgive me. Sirius is ashamed that he suspected Lupin and gives the answer that way. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 02:08:51 2003 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 02:08:51 -0000 Subject: Slytherin and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "belsum" wrote: > Of course I'm also convinced that the Evanses, not the Potters, are the magical side of Harry's family. Both Harry's Mother and Father were magic. If they were not they would not have both been at Hogwarts. sherry From senderellabrat at aol.com Fri Oct 3 08:59:34 2003 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 08:59:34 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82163 NakedHermione: > A thousand pardons to the group if this question has already been > asked but... > Could the Time-Turner used by Hermione in POA (to save Black the > first time) also be used to go back in time and save Sirius from > being killed by Bellatrix in OOTP? If so, why hasn't any of > Dumbledore's crew thought of it? Is it not possible after someone has > already died? Then Amanda: Even if the idea occurred to anyone, and they tried it, they would fail. Because, even if the idea itself hasn't happened yet, we have *already experienced* the time to which they would return, and Sirius died. The events they want to affect have already happened. Take Buckbeak--he was never actually killed. They didn't go back and *change* things--they were simply a part of the things that did occur, that already had happened. If an attempt to save Sirius were made, we would already have seen that attempt during the fight scene, and if one was made, it clearly didn't work. So, I'd have to say no, use of the time-turner wouldn't save him, because he's already died. If the time-turner were used to save him, he would have survived; we just wouldn't know why yet (much like Buckbeak). My turn: Sorry Amanda but I have to disagree. We all know JKR doesn't just put things in her plot lines for ambiance. Time turners seemed to be a big part of that chapter (where theyre in that room with the thing w/ the egg & bird). This whole theory has crossed my mind. It took the 3rd time reading OOTP (this particular chapter at 5am) before it clicked. If I remember correctly, in GOF, Dumbledore said you could save 2 lives that night. I believe in that area (sorry I don't have my book on me for specific hard canon) there was mention of Sirius getting his kiss at that moment (not by DD but by someone). Youre as good as gone w/ the kiss. I don't see why the time turner couldn't be used to go back to the point where he *should have* used the mirror or something? I haven't thought this whole thing through yet, but I do believe it's entirely possible. Forgive my lack of hard evidence, but I have no clue where any of my books are. We're in the middle of remodeling. Anyhow, I'd *love* to see Sirius back somehow (time turner or otherwise) because I feel Harry *really* needs him in his life. I know the Weasley's are family to him, but Sirius was a part of his past & a part of his parents. From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 3 10:38:59 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:38:59 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: > NakedHermione: > > A thousand pardons to the group if this question has already been > > asked but... > > Could the Time-Turner used by Hermione in POA (to save Black the > > first time) also be used to go back in time and save Sirius from > > being killed by Bellatrix in OOTP? If so, why hasn't any of > > Dumbledore's crew thought of it? Is it not possible after someone > has > > already died? > > Then Amanda: > Even if the idea occurred to anyone, and they tried it, they would > fail. Because, even if the idea itself hasn't happened yet, we have > *already experienced* the time to which they would return, and Sirius > died. The events they want to affect have already happened. > > Take Buckbeak--he was never actually killed. They didn't go back and > *change* things--they were simply a part of the things that did > occur, that already had happened. If an attempt to save Sirius were > made, we would already have seen that attempt during the fight scene, > and if one was made, it clearly didn't work. > > So, I'd have to say no, use of the time-turner wouldn't save him, > because he's already died. If the time-turner were used to save him, > he would have survived; we just wouldn't know why yet (much like > Buckbeak). > > > My turn: > Sorry Amanda but I have to disagree. We all know JKR doesn't just put > things in her plot lines for ambiance. Time turners seemed to be a > big part of that chapter (where theyre in that room with the thing w/ > the egg & bird). This whole theory has crossed my mind. It took the > 3rd time reading OOTP (this particular chapter at 5am) before it > clicked. If I remember correctly, in GOF, Dumbledore said you could > save 2 lives that night. I believe in that area (sorry I don't have > my book on me for specific hard canon) there was mention of Sirius > getting his kiss at that moment (not by DD but by someone). Youre as > good as gone w/ the kiss. I don't see why the time turner couldn't be > used to go back to the point where he *should have* used the mirror > or something? I haven't thought this whole thing through yet, but I > do believe it's entirely possible. Forgive my lack of hard evidence, > but I have no clue where any of my books are. We're in the middle of > remodeling. Anyhow, I'd *love* to see Sirius back somehow (time > turner or otherwise) because I feel Harry *really* needs him in his > life. I know the Weasley's are family to him, but Sirius was a part > of his past & a part of his parents. Alshain: Sorry, but no go. The point of time-turners is that you can only prevent events which haven't happened yet, not change the past. Sirius hadn't yet been Kissed when Harry and Hermione woke up, so I think your memory deceives you a little bit. If Fudge had had the Kiss administered as soon as he got his hands on Sirius, no time-turner in the world could have saved him, which is why Dumbledore is in such a hurry. I too have a selfish wish to see more of Sirius, but there is some kind of purpose to his death after all. First, it was the only thing which could make Harry drive Voldemort out of his mind -- even if he'd done his occlumency lessons properly, Voldemort would have been too strong for him IMO. Second, Harry needs to find out who he is for himself, not just model his life and personality on his father figures. Third, it's the irrevocability and tragedy of death we're shown -- one moment alive and laughing, gone forever in the next, without a trace of justice, romance or heroism to it. Alshain From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Oct 3 11:03:20 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:03:20 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > wrote: > > A while back I speculated that this one stretches a bit further > > than you've cast your net. > > > > The two of 'neither' could be James and Lily, the 'other', Harry. > > > > So it would be foretold that if Harry is to survive, James and Lily > > must die. > > Laura: > > But that's an incredibly tortured (you should forgive the expression > in this context) reading of that phrase. The "neither" and "either" > have to refer to the same people, and those two people must be the > ones referred to in the previous clause. Otherwise it violates the > rules of English. > Kneasy: Not necessarily. You must remember this was a dark time in the HPfGU world. Hurricane Jo had just blown through, shell-shocked posters, clutching the tattered remains of their beloved theories wandered over the landscape looking for succour. Counseling clinics were overwhelmed by distressed Siriophiles; conspiracy theorists licked their lips and dreamed dreams of heinous betrayals beyond the fantasies of mortal men. Lovely. Just about everyone was beating their heads against The Prophecy and coming to the conclusion that it was not as straightforward as it appeared at first glance. That phrase in particular was a big block. It was looked at up, down, sideways, back to front and inside out. Nothing. So I put in my alternative take. Does it refer to Harry and Voldy *only*? His parents are mentioned obliquely at the start - "born to those.." Why not another mention? Also, why should the "either" and the "neither" be talking about the same pairs? This resulted in a reading that can be written as "either (Harry or Voldy) must die at the hand of the other for neither (James nor Lily) can live while the other (Harry) survives.." OK. It's not perfect. But it did seem to make some sort of sense and fit the canon as we know it up to now. It also helps eliminate Neville from DD's calculations. I don't claim to be right; it was offered as a *possible* interpretation that resolved *nearly all* of the grammatical conflicts. After days of reading all the other posts on the subject and me tying syntax and grammar into knots, IMO the only way to make sense of this part of the prophecy is to have it refer to more than two people. Eventually, nearly everyone gave up in disgust; either it wasn't complete or DD and/or JKR was lying, were opinions expressed on site. Well, it's raised it's head again. I hope that this time it gets sorted, but somehow I doubt it. So, c'mon Laura! Give us your interpretation. I'm really interested. Warning: whatever you write, somebody out there will put the boot in. It always happens. There are more critics than analysts; they'll tell you what's wrong, but they don't put it right. Kneasy From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 11:33:33 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:33:33 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82166 We don't know for sure that prophecy applies just to Harry, despite what DD says. I think by the time the final conflict rolls around, Voldemort could mockingly acknowldege Neville as an equal, or there could be a dark horse candidate out there. A boy ...born in the seventh month (This does not have to mean the 7th month of the year. It could mean the 7th month of a Lunar calendar or seven months after V becomes pupamort. ) ...whom Voldemort acknowledges as an equal. (This condition is easily satisfied. One good mocking from Voldemort, and it's taken care of.) ...whose parents defied him three times. (We know that the Potters and the Longbottoms meet this condition. Maybe the Weasleys do too. Interestingly, Harry meets this criteria too--SS, CoS, GoF. Ginny might as well. You think JKR will have another baby destroy Voldemort?) I think the prophecy is sort of like a slot machine. When the final confrontation occurs, the slot machine is going to start spinning. When the dust settles, the prophecy will be fulfilled, but HOW is not set in stone. Simple scenario-- Harry and his friends get into a fight with V Harry loses. Neville is left standing. Neville defies V. V laughs and mockingly bows to him. Neville's power (persistence and loyalty, let's say) distracts V Ron sneaks up behind V and kills him Ta-DA! Prophecy fulfilled and Harry isn't involved. From oppen at mycns.net Fri Oct 3 12:47:53 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:47:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please References: Message-ID: <00ee01c389ac$90ef7be0$97510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 82167 > > But... but... 6 and 7 change everything, because Harry now believes > that either Voldemort must take over the world or he, Harry, must be > a murderer. What an awful choice! No wonder Dumbledore tried to > keep it from him. (I don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty > sure there's something in Dumbledore's words to Harry that show hw > is aware of this consideration.) Frankly, I wouldn't have worried about that too much, if I'd been in Harry's shoes...but then, even at that age, I had a pragmatic, practical streak that our young idealist doesn't have. V-mort's killed _HOW MANY_ people? He's a murderer himself, many times over, and many of his victims weren't trying to do anything to him. As long as he lives, V's a menace to Wizard, Muggle, House-Elf, Centaur, Giant and everybody else. I don't think Harry will _enjoy_ killing V-mort, but I think he'll come to the conclusion that it's a distasteful job that has to be done, and he has to do it or otherwise this menace will not only kill him but go on killing. If he allows V-mort to kill him, he is, in effect, killing more innocents, including, in all likelihood, his friends. As far as it being "murder" goes---every religion and legal system I'm aware of makes allowances for acts in self-defense. Killing in defense of one's own life or another's life (or killing an enemy in a war, which is what the WW has on its hands, whether the Ministry wanted to admit it or not) doesn't count as "murder" to most people. Now, if V-mort was just minding his own business, say, working on a Philosopher's Stone of his _very_ own to make himself immortal, and Harry snuck up behind him and AK'd him down...that would be rather different. But V-mort's the Wizard World equivalent of a mad dog, and the expression from the Old West of "He needed killin'" applies to him, if it ever applied to anybody. He's made his own choices, and can, as far as I am concerned, bl--dy well deal with the consequences thereof. > > The only logical way out consistent with a clear conscience for > Harry, it seems, is for *both* Harry and Voldemort to die. > > However, I rather think that the main plot twist of Book 7 will be > the mechanism by which Harry survives with his integrity intact, > Voldemort is defeated (killed? Who knows? East Cheam awaits with > baited breath), and the prophecy is fulfilled to the letter. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Oct 3 12:49:28 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:49:28 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > > Pippin: > > But Voldemort doesn't know that the prophesied one is the *only* > > one who can kill him (either must die at the hand of the other), so > > he actually needn't fear Dumbledore or the Aurors, whom he has > > been avoiding for so long. > > > Erin: > > I don't agree with that. I think the phrase "the one with the power > to destroy the Dark Lord" pretty much means the ONLY one with that > power. Er, I'm thousands of miles away from my copy of OOP. But isn't the wording "vanquish" not "destroy"? "Vanquish" means means "defeat" or "gain mastery over" or "subdue completely" Voldemort knows he has already been vanquished by Harry several times. As far as he knows, the prophecy says nothing about how he can be destroyed, and therefore he must fear that Dumbledore or the Aurors can do it. Pippin From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Oct 3 13:49:24 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 15:49:24 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200310031549.24769.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 82169 Alshain: > Sorry, but no go. The point of time-turners is that you can only > prevent events which haven't happened yet, not change the past. Excuse me, but that's an assumption. I can explain PoA with a version of time that include actually changing the past. I did it. Keywords for Yahoomort search: Time-Travel, time-turner, Uber-kitchen. It is also debatable whether Buckbead died or not. Know on the question, why didn't save Sirius? Saving him implies the next question: why not to save the other members of the other that had been killed/imprisoned. I know Sirius is pivotal to Harry, but for what I know, he is not for the Order. Why should they risk? Another reply: because Harry didn't remember the time-turners. He could have grabed one, as anyone going trough that room, for what matters, and it can matter if any DE has grabbed one. If he had remember, it would be in character for him to boldy go and try rescue Sirius. silmariel From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Oct 3 14:00:55 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:00:55 -0000 Subject: Wands - how important? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82170 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > Don't quote me on this, but I'd > swear someone was using Dad's old school wand in one of the > books.(Neville?) Geoff: Quite true. It was Neville. It was broken in the fight at the Ministry of Magic in OOTP. "My gran's going to kill be", said Neville thickly, blood spattering form his nose as he spoke, "dat was by dad's old wand." Geoff (who does not possess /any/ bumper stickers) From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 14:01:47 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:01:47 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82171 > Pippin: > Er, I'm thousands of miles away from my copy of OOP. But isn't > the wording "vanquish" not "destroy"? "Vanquish" means > means "defeat" or "gain mastery over" or "subdue completely" > Voldemort knows he has already been vanquished by Harry > several times. As far as he knows, the prophecy says nothing > about how he can be destroyed, and therefore he must fear that > Dumbledore or the Aurors can do it. > Er, yes, you're right, of course. I haven't actually gotten around to memorizing the prophecy yet, like so many of ya'll *yelps in pain as she irons fingers*, but I still take issue with your assertation that Voldemort need not fear Dumbledore. One can be wounded or horribly disfigured without being vanquished. Erin From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 15:07:42 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:07:42 -0000 Subject: It isn't murder ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82172 Richard here ... I'm getting a bit tired of all the talk of murder, round here, at least to the extent that so many seem to have decided that Harry must be a murderer if he kills Voldemort. Well, even if Harry is worried about becoming a murderer, I'm not all that concerned that he will be one at all. Why? Voldemort has tried to kill him repeatedly, and is still intent upon accomplishing that end. If someone attacks you with the intent of killing you, and you happen to kill your attacker, it is self defense, which is considered legally and (for most) ethically justifiable, NOT MURDER. Murder is a legal term dealing with certain classes of wrongful killing of another human being. There are other legal terms besides murder and justifiable homicide ... like manslaughter. So, given the range of legal and ethical options for the killing of another person, and the fact that Voldemort is still actively plotting the demise of Harry, I have a hard time seeing the final event ending up as murder if it is Voldemort who is dead, regardless of Harry's condition after that event. Richard, who is tired of misplaced and misused legal and ethical terminology From editor at texas.net Fri Oct 3 16:09:03 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:09:03 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82173 Amanda-first: > Even if the idea occurred to anyone, and they tried it, they would > fail. Because, even if the idea itself hasn't happened yet, we have > *already experienced* the time to which they would return, and Sirius > died. The events they want to affect have already happened. > > Take Buckbeak--he was never actually killed. They didn't go back and > *change* things--they were simply a part of the things that did > occur, that already had happened. If an attempt to save Sirius were > made, we would already have seen that attempt during the fight scene, > and if one was made, it clearly didn't work. > > So, I'd have to say no, use of the time-turner wouldn't save him, > because he's already died. If the time-turner were used to save him, > he would have survived; we just wouldn't know why yet (much like > Buckbeak). Ultimatesen: > Sorry Amanda but I have to disagree. We all know JKR doesn't just put > things in her plot lines for ambiance. Time turners seemed to be a > big part of that chapter (where theyre in that room with the thing w/ > the egg & bird). This whole theory has crossed my mind. It took the > 3rd time reading OOTP (this particular chapter at 5am) before it > clicked. If I remember correctly, in GOF, Dumbledore said you could > save 2 lives that night. I believe in that area (sorry I don't have > my book on me for specific hard canon) there was mention of Sirius > getting his kiss at that moment (not by DD but by someone). Youre as > good as gone w/ the kiss. I don't see why the time turner couldn't be > used to go back to the point where he *should have* used the mirror > or something? I haven't thought this whole thing through yet, but I > do believe it's entirely possible. Forgive my lack of hard evidence, > but I have no clue where any of my books are. We're in the middle of > remodeling. Anyhow, I'd *love* to see Sirius back somehow (time > turner or otherwise) because I feel Harry *really* needs him in his > life. I know the Weasley's are family to him, but Sirius was a part > of his past & a part of his parents. Amanda-now: One thing that JKR has not done yet, and which is a major reason we "trust" her as readers, is break her own rules. And the rules established for time-turners, in how they were handled and how things "happened" in PoA, do not permit something to happen and then happen again differently. This is difficult to discuss because of the limitations of verb tenses and descriptions for what's going on, but I'll give it a stab. In PoA--events happened in a linear fashion for Harry, because he had to *experience* them in that way. That's how we live, moving in one direction through time. The Time-Turner moved him physically back in time, but he, himself, who moved backward, continued being himself and continued his own forward progression through time. He did not "revert" to the identity he had at the time to which he returned. We, as readers, have shared that linear progression with Harry, and so it seems to us, as to him, that we have lived through something twice. This, I believe, is the source of the confusion about how the time- turners work. Although Harry, and we, seem to see a "revisit" of earlier events, what we are seeing are actually the *exact same events* from a different perspective. Nothing was *changed* by Harry and Hermione going back in time. While it is, I suppose, theoretically possible to say Buckbeak actually died, and the "first" time around the thud *was* his head coming off and Hagrid's cry *was* anguish, other events do not bear out the "they really changed things" theory. Harry himself was in grave danger, moments from a dementor's kiss. The only thing that saved him was the Patronus that the Future!Harry cast. Future!Harry's presence in that moment of time, and the Patronus, were integral parts the event, even the "first" time we experienced it. If Future!Harry had not been there--as part of the original (and only) unfolding of the event, Harry would have died, and thence been unable to return to "change" things. No, Future!Harry was an established and necessary part of the ONE event in the timestream. Harry was able to be in that event in the timestream twice because of the time-turner--and confusingly experienced everything twice, from two perspectives. But the events he perceived, either time, are identical, and only happened once in the forward progression of time. So. To Sirius. Harry has experienced that event. Sirius died. If he, or anyone, decides to take a time-turner back and saved Sirius, Harry's memory of the event would include Sirius surviving. It doesn't. So nobody *will* be taking a time-turner and doing it, either. They may even take a time-turner and *try*--but they will fail, because the event as it has occurred includes Sirius' death. Their presence in the past event may trigger some necessary thing--which happened the first time we as readers perceived it, but did not notice--but it will not *change* the events Harry, and we, perceived. It may augment our understanding of what actually happened, but the events themselves have occurred and are set. This is not to say that JKR does not introduce plot elements with future uses in mind. I'm just saying that she follows her own rules, and judging by the way the time-turner operated in PoA, its use to *change* an event is not possible. We would already have experienced the event *as changed,* and we didn't. Besides, plot-wise, she said he's gone. Sorry. Harry will have to make do with the father-figures he has left: Dumbledore, Lupin, Mr. Weasley, Snape. (not all father figures are positive, nor should they be.) ~Amanda From sydenmill at msn.com Fri Oct 3 16:29:07 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:29:07 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name (taking his power away) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Cocchiarale" wrote in post 82093: > But I have to ask: is DD imprudent (irresponsible, even?) in choosing NOT to kill LV on the spot while (presumably) he could? LV's death in the battle at DOM would no doubt be a HUGE blow to the DEs, no?< Bohcoo responds: DD did not choose not to kill LV -- DD did not even try to kill LV because he knows that he can't kill LV. Only Harry Potter can kill LV -- and DD did NOT want LV to know that. Even if DD had given it everything he had there in the DOM lobby, he would not have been able to kill LV. No one can. Only Harry Potter. That is what the prophecy is all about -- and why everyone was/is doing everything in their power to keep LV from hearing it in its entirety. Meanwhile, DD is doing everything in his power to get Harry "trained up" as quickly as he can so when LV finally realizes he MUST kill Harry, Harry will at least have a fighting chance. Up until this point, LV considers Harry nothing more than a nuisance -- as someone to be killed merely to get him out of the way -- finish up old business -- show the world he can kill Harry, but only because he failed to do so in the past. He does not yet know that his very survival depends on killing Harry before Harry kills him. And that is Dumbledore's very mission in life -- to keep this information secret from LV and to prepare Harry Potter to be successful in ultimately killing Lord Voldemort. Unfortunately, DD will be forced to do some things toward that end that will hurt many other people -- including, alas, Harry. Anxious for #'s 6 and 7, with no peeking, Bohcoo From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Oct 3 16:39:22 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:39:22 -0000 Subject: House Elfs? A question about money.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82175 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zihav" wrote: > Greetings: > > I've been wondering, we know how to dismiss a house elf, but how does > a wizarding family go about getting a house elf? We know that Ron > states in CoS that it's an old wizarding family with lots of gold, > but is that the only requirement? (snip)> zihav A further question from Carolyn: Why do you have to be a wizarding family with a lot of gold in order to have a house elf, since they refuse to be paid ? Are house elves really just as elitist as their masters ? I am reminded of that famous Edward Lear limerick 'I am his Highness's dog at Kew, pray tell me sir, whose dog are you ? (note to non-UK readers - Kew is a large and beautiful London park, formerly the private grounds of a Royal palace). From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Oct 3 16:47:28 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:47:28 -0000 Subject: Scar as Ancient Rune In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" SNIP > By the way, we know Lily's "sacrifice" didn't leave a physical mark on Harry. (SS 299) I suggest to you that the scar on Harry's head is indeed the defensive rune "eihwaz," (OoP 715) and a consequence of Dumbledore's charm. This, of course, implies pre-meditation and orchestration. (Wouldn't do to have LV come knocking when Lily was upstairs taking a nap and Harry was bouncing on his Daddy's knee in the living room.) SNIP But you see, Harry had the scar/cut on his head already when Hagrid brought him to the Dursleys and Dumbledore. Yes, we do have the missing 24 hours of time between Halloween when Lily and James were killed and Nov 2 in the morning when Harry os found on the doorstep, but still, it having been a "cut" on his head, are you really suggesting that Dumbledore *carved* it into his head? And Dumbledore clearly calls it a scar when he compares it to the one he has on his knee of the London underground. I do see merit and links to the scar being the actual shape and with some conducting ability of the properties inheirent in the rune, however. I see it more likely that it the scar, was a marl from the curse that failed still, and may just have manifested itself in the form of a rune. Eihwaz (linked to Yew--voldemort's wand) and immortality and power may be a good choice as could be the Sowulo (lightening bolt shape) rune that is linked to the Sun (Harry's astrological sign is Leo, the sign of the sun), honor (a gryffindor trait), the life-force ( particularly coincidental for "The Boy Who Lived"), and it also linked to a mythological "sword of flame" or "cleansing fire" (Goes with Gryffindors being the House of the element Fire and his scar always seems to burn). SO anyway, that's my addition to this interesting debate/discussion. Arya From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Oct 3 17:01:38 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:01:38 -0000 Subject: Scar as Ancient Rune In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82177 Arya asked: > But you see, Harry had the scar/cut on his head already when Hagrid > brought him to the Dursleys and Dumbledore. Yes, we do have the > missing 24 hours of time between Halloween when Lily and James were > killed and Nov 2 in the morning when Harry os found on the doorstep, > but still, it having been a "cut" on his head, are you really > suggesting that Dumbledore *carved* it into his head? And Dumbledore > clearly calls it a scar when he compares it to the one he has on his > knee of the London underground. No, I don't think anyone is suggesting Dumbledore or Lily or whoever the eihwaz-related-spell-caster was actually gave Harry the physical scar. Rather, they used a spell of some sort that involved the shape of the rune (perhaps tracing it on his forhead with a finger, or wand, or special potion?). This was done some time before the Godric's Hollow incident, probably before the Fidelius Charm was enacted. Then, when Voldemort cast AK at Harry, the force of the curse was concentrated at the place where the eihwaz had been, creating a scar. > Eihwaz (linked to Yew--voldemort's wand) and immortality and power > may be a good choice as could be the Sowulo (lightening bolt shape) > rune that is linked to the Sun (Harry's astrological sign is Leo, the > sign of the sun), honor (a gryffindor trait), the life-force ( > particularly coincidental for "The Boy Who Lived"), and it also > linked to a mythological "sword of flame" or "cleansing fire" (Goes > with Gryffindors being the House of the element Fire and his scar > always seems to burn). In actual real world runes, yes, the two symbols have many possible interpretations. However, we don't know whether these other meanings hold true in Potterverse. By canon, eihwaz = protection (and ehwaz = something, though I don't have my books to look up what exactly), and that's it. -Corinth From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 17:12:18 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:12:18 -0000 Subject: centaurs and Trelawney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "roseswicegood" wrote: > Ok--second post in the same day. What is the group's opinion of the > centaur in Hogwarts? What does all this mean? Trelawney cannot > possibly compete with him as a divination teacher. Does Dumbledore > have her stay at Hogwarts because she is the bearer of the prophecy? > So--I have questions, Radioshack has answers, I know...:) > rose bboy_mn: I can't take credit for this idea, I'm just repeating it. Someone speculated that a reasonable configuration of Divination teachers would be Trelawney teaching years 1-4 or 5, and Frienze teaching advanced Divination to possibly year 5, and definetely years 6 and 7. Trelawney - I think Dumbledore keeps Trelawney around because she made one very important prediction about Voldemort, and this was before Voldemort fell, so at the time it was important. Certainly important enough to keep her around for a while. Then when the prediction pretty much turned out to be true, Harry defeated Voldemort, he couldn't afford to let her go in case she predicted something else; which she eventually did. Some will question Trelawney's psychic abilities, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant because she seems reasonable knowledgable in the various forms of Divination (tea leaves, crystal ball, astrology, palmistry, etc...) to give beginning student a adequate introduction and basic working knowledge of the subjects. Frienze - I think the Centaurs totally over reacted to Frienze taking the Divinations job. I takes many many many years of total immersion in the Centaur culture to become modestly proficient in their methods of divination. In the classroom, Frienze could never possible give the students more than a general superficial overview of Centaur Divination. Illustration: if the subject of Centaur Divination is a set of Encyclopedias then what Frienze would give the students would be a comic book. Certainly, nothing for the Centaur population to worry about. I can only hope the Centaurs come to their senses and see that forgetting about Frienze and joining Dumbledore is much much more in their best interests than ignoring the problem until Voldemort gives them a 'for me' or 'against me' ultimatum. Just a thought. bboy_mn From dcyasser at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 17:20:51 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:20:51 -0000 Subject: It isn't murder ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > Richard here ... > > I'm getting a bit tired of all the talk of murder, round here, at > least to the extent that so many seem to have decided that Harry must be a murderer if he kills Voldemort. Well, even if Harry is worried about becoming a murderer, I'm not all that concerned that he will be one at all. So, given the range of legal and ethical options for the killing of another person, and the fact that Voldemort is still actively plotting the demise of Harry, I have a hard time seeing the final event ending up as murder if it is Voldemort who is dead, regardless of Harry's condition after that event. > Richard, who is tired of misplaced and misused legal and ethical > terminology Richard While I agree with your assertation that Harry killing Voldemort really wouldn't be murder, and I'm sure someone will explain this thoroughly to Harry, we are left with "murder or be murdered" as Harry's thoughts via canon. Murder is the term JKR is using, the thought of being a murderer is what has has Harry so appalled he can't bring himself to discuss it with Ron and Hermione "He was not ready to see their expressions when he told them that he must be either murderer or victim, there was no other way..." (US hardcover p.849) I admit that when I read that, I thought all the same things you stated, and I think I yelled them at the book. But until (or unless) Harry gets that through his head, he's going to think of it as murder, and as it's Harry's story to tell, that's what's going to stand. (I'm also real suspicious of her planting "there was no other way") cheers dc From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Oct 3 17:25:26 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:25:26 -0000 Subject: Ancient Magic vs. Dark Magic (was ancient magic)/The evidence of the books. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" wrote: > > There are ancient and new spells in both Dark and normal magic. > Some Dark magic dates from as far as the Egiptiams, some forgoten, > some found, some kept all along, some completely lost. > In my view, ancient magic doesn't have to relate to emotions and/or > primitive forms of spells, but in fact could mean that the > tribe/comunity/country etc... who created the spell is long gone, and > there are no records, but it is history passed along, but not widely > known. Some others could be from the beggining of the world, and > still being used and well known, but people don't know the origin for > sure. > Dark magic is ancient magic, but not all ancient magic is dark magic. > And in both there are new spells. > Hopefully not confusing. > Nineve. Comment from Carolyn: I have been keeping a list of the books mentioned in the series, and there is no doubt that the WW are fascinated by the history of magic, and make a lot of effort not to lose track of old spells. Just look down the list of titles JKR mentions to get a feel for the importance she places on book-learning (the inner Hermione in her coming out ?!) KNOWN AUTHORS Bathilda Bagshot: A History of Magic, Little Red Books, 1947 Professor Mordicus Egg: The Philosophy of the Mundane ? Why the Muggles Prefer Not to Know (Dust & Mildewe 1963) Miranda Goshawk: The Standard Book of Spells, Grades 1-5 Arsenius Jigger: Magical Drafts & Potions, Inigo Imago: The Dream Oracle Gilderoy Lockhart: Guide to Household Pests; Break with a Banshee; Gadding with Ghouls; Holidays with Hags; Travels with Trolls; Voyages with Vampires; Wanderings with Werewolves; Year with the Yeti; Magical Me Gulliver Pokeby: Why I Didn't Die When the Augurey Cried, Little Red Books, 1824 Newton Scamander: Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (first published 1927, now in 52nd edition); Fabulous Beasts Through the Ages Wilbert Slinkhard: Defensive Magical Theory Phyllida Spore: One Thousand Magical Herbs & Fungi Blenheim Stalk: Muggles Who Notice (1972) Emeric Switch: A Beginner's Guide to Transfiguration Quentin Trimble: The Dark Forces, A Guide to Self-Protection Quintias Umfraville: The Noble Sport of Worlocks (1620) Cassandra Vablatsky: Unfogging the Future Professor Vindictus Viridian: Curses & Countercurses (Bewitch Your Friends and Befuddle Your Enemies with the Latest Revenges: Hair Loss, Jelly-legs, Tongue-tying and much, much more) Adalbert Waffling: Magical Theory Wilhelm Wigworthy: Homelife and Social Habits of British Muggles, Little Red Books 1987 Kennilworthy Whisp: Quidditch Through the Ages; The Wonder of Wigtown Wanderers; He Flew Like a Madman; Beating the Bludgers ? A Study of Defence Strategy in Quidditch UNKNOWN AUTHORS Achievements in Charming Ancient Runes Made Easy An Anthology of Eighteenth Century Charms An Appraisal of Magical Education in Europe Asiatic Anti-Venoms Basic Hexes for the Busy and Vexed Charm Your Own Cheese Common Magical Ailments and Afflictions A Compendium of Common Curses and their Counter Actions The Dark Arts Outsmarted Dreadful Denizens of the Deep Enchantment in Baking Encyclopedia of Toadstools Flying With the Cannons Guide to Advanced Transfiguration A Guide to Medieval Sorcery Hogwarts: A History Intermediate Transfiguration The Invisible Book of Invisibility Jinxes for the Jinxed Madcap Magic for Wacky Warlocks Magical Heiroglyphs and Logograms Magical Mediterranean Water Plants and Their Properties Men Who Love Dragons Too Much The Monster Book of Monsters Most Potente Potions Nature's Nobility ? A Wizarding Genealogy New Theory of Numerology Numerology and Grammatica Olde and Forgotten Bewitchments and Charmes One Minute Feasts ? Its Magic Powers You Never Knew You Had And What To Do With Them Now You've Wised Up Practical Defensive Magic and Its Use Against the Dark Arts Predicting the Unpredictable: Insulate Yourself Against Shock and Broken Balls: When Fortunes Turn Foul Prefects Who Gained Power Quidditch Teams of Britain and Ireland The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts Theories of Transubstantial Transfiguration Saucy Tricks for Tricky Sorts Self-Defensive Spellwork Sites of Historical Sorcery Sonnets of A Sorcerer Spellman's Syllabary Weird Wizarding Dilemmas and Their Solutions Where There's a Wand, There's A Way From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 17:25:43 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:25:43 -0000 Subject: centaurs and Trelawney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "roseswicegood" wrote: > > Ok--second post in the same day. What is the group's opinion of the > > centaur in Hogwarts? What does all this mean? Trelawney cannot > > possibly compete with him as a divination teacher. Does Dumbledore > > have her stay at Hogwarts because she is the bearer of the prophecy? > > So--I have questions, Radioshack has answers, I know...:) > > rose > Maybe Trelawney or Firenze will be the next DADA professor.... - CMC From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 17:28:30 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:28:30 -0000 Subject: My two cents re:the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82182 smtopliff wrote: > Okay, if you're like me, you've probably memorized this Prophecy. > But I wondered if there weren't some things that were overlooked in > it? Here's my thoughts-- > > First, what if the word 'approaches' was applied in the immediate > context. Was someone physically approaching the place where Sybill > and DD were meeting? A person who had the power to defeat in some > way,shape, or form Voldy himself? How would that affect the rest > of the Prophecy and how it is interpreted? (Well, that's part > two...) > smt--interested in your feedback Feedback: some of what you posted had occurred to me, too, early on after reading the prophecy. I privately (in my head) ran it up the flagpole and watched it hang limply, not waving. Further readings of all five books further convinced me that the prophecy would not turn out to be so "tricky." The first reason is what I said in a recent post: that Dumbledore has interpreted the prophecy in a pretty straightforward way; I think we are meant to trust that he has enough experience with things like prophecies to have a pretty good notion of what this one means, and that he has enough integrity to have explained it to Harry (at least for the most part) honestly. Sandy From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 12:50:25 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:50:25 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82183 augustinapeach wrote: I think the prophecy has huge implications for Voldemort. For one thing, it tells him who he really has to fear -- Harry. His attention is focused on Dumbledore, and that's how Dumbledore wants it. As long as he can be a decoy, Harry will have time to develop and learn and eventually to have the chance to carry out "mission." That's why so much effort was put into protecting the prophecy. > Then Dumbledad wrote: But, before OotP commences, Voldemort already knows the first three clauses of the prophecy. From them he deduced that the one with the power to vanquish him is the baby Harry, and so sets off to kill him. He fails. He then tries three more times to kill Harry (though he's not aware of the attempt he made in CoS) and fails each time. So by the beginning of OotP he knows exactly who "the one" mentioned in the prophecy is. That's the reason I think that the additional clauses of the prophecy tell him so little that's new. Voldemort doesn't need to know that Harry is "the one", he needs to know how to kill Harry. ap: Ooops -- I sorta overlooked those first three lines. You're right, that would tell Voldemort that Harry is probably the one. But (to shore up my theory!)what if . . . . Voldemort thinks the "vanquish" in the first line of the prophecy refers to the encounter he and Harry had when Harry was a baby and when Voldemort was stripped of his power and his body? Maybe he thinks the prophecy goes on to say something like, "But the Dark Lord will return, greater and more powerful than ever." To support my theory, I am drawing on the scene in the graveyard in GOF. Twice, Voldemort says something like, "the boy you all believed had been my downfall (p. 657, US). The past tense verb makes me think he sees the "downfall" as over with. We all know Voldemort is big on revenge -- he killed his own father and grandparents in retaliation for being abandoned by them. Maybe the same sort of mindset is working in his attempts to kill Harry. I also still think Voldemort thinks Dumbledore is his big enemy, because he said to the Death-Eaters in GOF (p. 648), "perhaps they believed a still greater power could exist, one that could vanquish LV -- perhaps they now pay allegiance to another. . . . perhaps that champion of commoners .. . .Albus Dumbledore?" My interpretation of Voldemort is that he is so arrogant that he thinks only high drama is suitable for his life -- to have the most powerful "good" wizard duel the most powerful evil wizard for the "championship of the world." I think he cannot conceive of the notion that an ordinary 15-year-old boy could be his rival. As he said in GOF (p. 658), "You see . . . how foolish it was to suppose that this boy could ever have been stronger than me." But surely he's starting to put two and two together! Shortly after he makes the declaration just above, his wand and Harry's do something he didn't expect and couldn't explain. No wonder he was so curious to see just what was in that prophecy. . . . . AP (enjoying the chance to exchange ideas!) From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 3 15:26:24 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:26:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Foreign DADA Teacher-- Why it won't happen References: Message-ID: <000f01c389c2$b6539ea0$1ce879a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82184 > Mina-Clare: > > Yes, Canada, the United States, Australia and New Zealand would have > strong influences, but they have their own native influences (Native > American tribes, Aborigianals). If Canadian wizard society is as much > as a "mosaic" as Muggle society, then they magic they use in every > day life could be *vastly* different than British Wizard. You're also missing South Africa, there... (Just pointing out one that's never been mentioned... that I've seen, at least.) > > My main argument against Foreign wizards comes from places like Asia > and Africa. There is no way they cast spells in Latin, in the same > style as Harry and his friends. I have no doubt in my mind that Asia > uses an old Chinese dialect as opposed to Latin. This pretty much > discounts any of Floretine's notion of a Chinese DADA Professor > (sorry, I love the idea, I just can't see it) Actually, considering the widespread influence of the British Empire, French colonization, the Holy Roman Empire (which, of course, is where we get the Latin base for the spells), and the Spanish colonization, it opens up a whole lot more. (Also, there are a LOT of indications that Durmstrang's is in one of the Norse countries... the Viking ship they use for transport and the cold environment they seem to come from being examples.) The Spanish colonization, of course, being included because the language is a Romance one (based on Latin) and it was also part of the Holy Roman Empire at one time. These factors also open up Egypt, South Africa, India, China (due to the British controll of Hong Kong for 150 years), Indonesia (a heavily French influenced area), South Korea (strong international influence in cities like Seoul, in addition to it being one of the few countries that accepts almost every religeon known to man, including Christian and Roman Catholic.), Mexico (the national religeon is pretty much Roman Catholic, in addition to having Spanish as it's language...), and almost all of the Caribbian except Cuba. So far as influence from native populations, I can actually see that being an advantage at times. For example, who else but a Voodoo practitioner from Haiti, Jamaica, or Louisianna would know so much about the dark arts? Especially Posession... The Chineese have a strong knowledge of Geomancy, including how to protect a person or area from evil spirits and demons. The Egyptians hace a culture that's strongly based in the placing and removal of curses. (That's one of the primary reasons Bill was there as a Curse Breaker... right?) > > This would explain why the Tri-Wizard Tournament uses the same three > schools each time its been held. These are the three Wizarding School > in the region that are pretty much evenly matched, because they draw > from the same "well". All of their spells are the same, yielding > (basically) the same results. The only > variant in the equation is the skill and power of the caster. Actually, I'd think the primary reason for it being those three schools is tradition. If it weren't for tradition, it would be more logical to hold "local championships" from the various schools in given areas, then work from there until you end up with the top three schools who compete in the TriWizard Tournament as a form of "grand championship." Also, considering that one of the goals of the tournament is to foster friendly competition between the schools and to see how the other school works, I'd think they'd welcome the spells and such from other cultures. That way they'd be able to not only see what the other schools teach, but how other styles of magic compare with their own. > > So why will we never see a foreign teacher? Because their way of > spell casting will be completely different from the students of > Hogwarts, neither will be able to catch up. A good teacher should be able to convey their subject regardless, IMHO. Also, let's say you hire a Jamaican Haungin (Voodoo priest...male. Mambo is a female Voodoo priestess...) to teach DADA: Some of the basic fundamentals should be the same... especially when you take into account the roots of Voodoo include Catholocism (good Latin base) in addition to the African Shamanism. They should know enough to be able to adapt what they're teaching for the students who have been taking DADA for a while, and introduce new students more fully into their styles of DADA. While there would be a time of adjustment, it would be similar to that of Firenze teaching Divination. And he shifted them over to the Centaur teachings a LOT more abruptly than any human teacher would be likely to do when shifting over to their DADA methodology. > > This is also the reason that "foreign exchange students" are an impossibility. > I'd think it would actually ENCOURAGE foreign exchange students. After all, why else do you submerge yourself in another country's language and culture if not to learn more completely, how other people speak, learn, and live their lives. (If I was an American Warlock, and had the opportunity to attend Hogwart's for a year, I'd jump at the chance... even though our styles of magic would have some strong differences.) Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "I'm marching to a different accordion." -- ABS FIRECAT From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 3 15:36:37 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:36:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] centaurs and Trelawney References: Message-ID: <001601c389c4$23c95be0$1ce879a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82185 > rose: > Ok--second post in the same day. What is the group's opinion of the > centaur in Hogwarts? What does all this mean? Trelawney cannot > possibly compete with him as a divination teacher. Does Dumbledore > have her stay at Hogwarts because she is the bearer of the prophecy? > So--I have questions, Radioshack has answers, I know...:) Honestly, I don't see any reason why he can't have BOTH teaching Divination. All he really has to do is title the classes a little differently (something like "Traditional Divination Techniques" for Trelawny, and "Astrological Studies and Interpretation" for Firenze...) and there shouldn't be too much of a problem. As for a centaur at Hogwarts, I don't see this as being any more of a problem than a Half-Giant teaching there... Or Flitwick (who I STILL think might actually be a Dwarf...) I think DD let's Trelawny stay because she is the keeper of the prophecy... but I think that's far from the main reason. (For one thing, nobody but DD and Harry know that she's the prophet in question... not even Trelawny herself.) I think he does it because it's the right thing to do, because he feels she was fired maliciously, and because she's basically a good person with a lot of potential still. (The latter being much the same reason he hired on Hagrid as the Grounds Keeper and, eventually, CoMC teacher.) Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Auntie Em, Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog. Dorothy" --- ABS FIRECAT From tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 3 16:24:22 2003 From: tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk (tobyreiner) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:24:22 -0000 Subject: Slytherin and Sirius Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82186 Sherry: > Both Harry's Mother and Father were magic. If they were not they > would not have both been at Hogwarts. Of course, but it may have been that they were the only magical ones in their families. But if it's the Evanses who are the magical ones, why did Petunia only try to deny Lily's existence and not her parents and other siblings? From Berkana_01 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 16:26:45 2003 From: Berkana_01 at hotmail.com (berkana_dianic) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:26:45 -0000 Subject: It isn't murder ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > Richard here ... > > I'm getting a bit tired of all the talk of murder, round here, at > least to the extent that so many seem to have decided that Harry must > be a murderer if he kills Voldemort. ........................................ I agree with you Richard. Voldemort has tried to kill Harry since he was a baby. He even invaded Quirell (wrong spelling I think), just to get to Harry. He tortured Harry over his own fathers grave and killed Cedric whilst he stood beside Harry. If Harry was to kill Voldemort, in the end and I truly hope he does, then NO it wouldn't be classed as murder, because Voldemort has tried to kill him more than once. That to me is self defense, but now wasn't the prophecy in OotP something like One can not survive without the other, so if Harry dies, then Voldemort dies?.....It has been a long time since I read the book, so I am so sorry if I have just come up with that prophecy, but if I am correct, then there is no point talking about what if Harry murders Voldemort, or visa versa, because when Harry dies, then so will Voldemort and visa versa ml joanna I am going to read OotP again starting from tonight, but at the moment I am on GoF for the 14th time...I love the book From tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 3 17:00:15 2003 From: tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk (tobyreiner) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:00:15 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82188 Ok, this is *really* bugging me about both my favourite fantasy series now. What makes it worse is that in both cases the prophecy is identical and a needless, in fact, stupid, addition to the series. I just don't understand why Dumbledore and Voldemort are so convinced that Trewlawny's prophecy is correct. Is there any proof that it will be? Isn't it possible that her seeing eye got things out of whack? Do we know for certain that seers never make mistakes? And I don't see why readers aren't suspecting that JKR might play on this too. Maybe it will turn out that the prophecy is wrong. Maybe Harry won't be the one to vanquish Voldy. (While I'm at it, if any Star Wars fans out there could tell me why the Jedi are now so convinced that Anakin Skywalker is the "one to bring balance to the Force", I'd be mighty obliged. Or even that there is going to be any one to bring balance. We, as the audience, do know that there is going to be this one and that it is, indeed, going to be Anakin Skywalker, but the protagonists know no such thing). From tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 3 17:46:22 2003 From: tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk (tobyreiner) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 17:46:22 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote:> > > However, an Ancient magic may be used to merge a strong Dark Wizard > with a willing youth. Riddle may still be the vehicle for > Grindelwald .... and more. Why should he be? > Grindelwald was "DEFEATED" (DD's Choc Frog Card), not killed. Tom > Riddle disappeared in Eastern Europe for some time (around where > Grindelwald was active?) before emerging as LV. Actually, in COS he says that he already used the name Lord Voldemort while he was still at Hogwarts, but only with a group of close friends. (Does he have "friends" in the way we think of them?) > If the Dark Wizard from 1945 could merge to prolong his life, why not > take this to the extreme? > > Salazar Slytherin LEFT Hogwarts, but there was no mention of how or > if he died. Since Nicholas Flammel could survive for centuries, why > couldn't Slytherin himself be possessing his 25th victom in his quest > for long life and power? ~aussie~ Was Salazar Slytherin explicitly a "Dark Wizard"? I don't think it's likely anyway. From dwoodward at towson.edu Fri Oct 3 18:04:19 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Woodward, Deirdre) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 14:04:19 -0400 Subject: Significance of Harry's blood in Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82190 Don't know if this has already been addressed. Now that Voldemort has Harry's blood in him, it seems to me that Harry is protected *against* Voldemort. Petunia could die, but Voldemort would still have Harry's blood, so the ancient magic would remain intact. I think Voldemort has done himself a grave disservice by using Harry's blood. Deirdre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dwoodward at towson.edu Fri Oct 3 18:16:23 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Woodward, Deirdre) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 14:16:23 -0400 Subject: Harry and Voldemort and killing each other Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82191 Hasn't Harry already killed Voldemort, in the sense that Voldemort the immortal dark lord no longer exists? Now that Voldy is human again, he's no longer Voldemort, but plain old Tom Riddle, as Dumbledore pointed out at the end of OoP by calling him "Tom." Certainly, he's a powerful wizard, but he's human for the first time since before he started terrorizing the wizarding world. Deirdre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 18:36:14 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:36:14 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82192 theultimatesen wrote: > I don't see why the time turner couldn't be used to go back to the > point where he *should have* used the mirror or something? I > haven't thought this whole thing through yet, but I do believe it's > entirely possible. > Sirius was a part of his past & a part of his parents. > I feel Harry *really* needs him in his life. Entirely *on* topic: my best friend died when I was twenty-three. He was twenty-seven. I believed that he was my soul mate and that I would never find anyone else to be so close to. (In some ways I was right; and that was more than twenty years ago.) Death is something that *happens* to people other people "need." That's the whole point. JKR personally has mentioned one death in her life: her mother. No matter how much you deny, weep, wail, smash things, tear your hair out, want to die yourself, it doesn't matter. NOTHING brings back the dead. That is my experience, and I believe it is JKR's as well. This isn't really about the time turner for me. We may or may not see more "time travel" in the books. I don't really care. I do care about Sirius, however. If JKR brings him back to any greater degree than she "brought back" Harry's parents (Mirror of Erised, Priori Incantatem), I will build a bonfire and burn the whole damn series. While HP is (or at least started out as) largely escapist fantasy, any major denial of life's realities like bringing someone greatly mourned back to life would be spectacularly immoral in a literary sense: it would be a poisoned lolly, for children of all ages. It would mock the grief of every person who has ever lost anyone in real life. Grief is about getting on with it and healing, scabbing over, learning to deal, finding ways to navigate around or plank over that great, bloody hole in your life. It's about coping. (Bringing Sirius back would be a dirty trick; it would say, hey, you don't have to grieve your dead, just leave that gaping wound in your psyche permanently open (for just anything to fall into and infect) in case somehow they find a way to come back to you. (The Monkey's Paw, anyone? Joyce (Buffy's Mom) Summers?)) (Don't you think someone (Dumbledore?) would have time-turned James and Lily back to life if it had been possible? Death Eaters have no scruples. Wouldn't they have used a time turner to re-embody (or even *find*) Voldemort after the events at Godric's Hollow? But that isn't really the issue. I believe we will not see it because JKR will not indulge in literary necromancy; she will not so blatantly insult the vast majority of Harry's readership.) Perhaps there should be a poll (list elves? I know some of you a bit better now; shall I beg?) where list members could weigh in on a question like, "Do you believe JKR will bring Sirius back as a living, breathing part of Harry's life?" or "Should JKR bring Sirius back?" or "Would you be insulted if JKR brought Sirius back?" or "Could JKR bring Sirius back without a major literary cheat?" Then if (who am I kidding? *when*) this comes up again, the response could be mercifully brief, just a guide to the URL where the (I believe, and a poll would ascertain) overwhelmingly clear results would be kept. (I hereby volunteer to help however I can with such an effort.) Sandy, who had thought she might (hah!) be done with her soapbox From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Oct 3 18:51:36 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 20:51:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200310032051.36243.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 82193 Amanda: << This, I believe, is the source of the confusion about how the time- turners work. Although Harry, and we, seem to see a "revisit" of earlier events, what we are seeing are actually the *exact same events* from a different perspective. >> No, really, I'm not confussed by that. I just think that is only a possible interpretation. > If Future!Harry had not been there--as part of the original (and only) unfolding of the event, Harry would have died, and thence been unable to return to "change" things. Read #79045 from sevenhundredandthirteen, my reply number #79099 and Talisman's #79635. If this is not explained there, please point it. >So. To Sirius. Harry has experienced that event. Sirius died. If he, or anyone, decides to take a time-turner back and saved Sirius, Harry's memory of the event would include Sirius surviving. It doesn't. So nobody *will* be taking a time-turner and doing it, either. > They may even take a time-turner and *try*--but they will fail, because the event as it has occurred includes Sirius' death. It's possible but difficult, risky and the author has not written it. Ok. Let's theorice. A: witness of Sirius death sends B back in time with two instructions: grab a timeturner and trow this little ball of busting light into that room at given time. Main instruction acomplished, remains the necessity to start the time travel, since you obtained what you wanted, the second tt. So the time-travel is not erased by the paradox: If you travel in time to save sirius and you save him, there is no need for the time travel, as he didn't die. Second task: throw the ball of light. Don't say it's not canon, please, muggles can do it. If not, choose launching a bomb of pepper, or whatever alters drastically the situation. In a 'past can be changed', this scenario can be resolved. They will remember the pepper (who wouldn't?) so it can be deducted within the context of the story, as with Harry and the patronus. It's just I don't think it's worth the risk. > I'm just saying that she follows her own rules, and judging by the way the time-turner operated in PoA, its use to *change* an event is not possible. I know we are not reading the same book, but my interpretation of time is not contradictory with the books, so far. silmariel From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 19:19:16 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:19:16 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82194 Tobyreiner wrote: > Ok, this is *really* bugging me about both my favourite fantasy > series now. What makes it worse is that in both cases the prophecy > is identical and a needless, in fact, stupid, addition to the > series. Honestly, I don't think that's the case. I suppose you could argue that it's not absolutely necessary to either -- that there would be other ways to tell the story -- but with HP we don't know exactly how she's going to play on it, and with both HP and Star Wars (as with, for that matter, much of Greek myth; it's rather a classic really), a good deal of the point of the prophecy plot is how people's behavior in reaction to /having/ a prophecy may lead to its coming true, or lead to its coming true in a way they didn't want it to. > I just don't understand why Dumbledore and Voldemort are so > convinced that Trewlawny's prophecy is correct. Is there any proof > that it will be? Isn't it possible that her seeing eye got things > out of whack? Do we know for certain that seers never make mistakes? Well, that probably depends on what you mean by "proof." It appears that divination is treated as a legitimate area of study in HP, even if Trelawny tends to be a joke a lot of the time; I suppose you could argue that it /shouldn't/ be, but that people can see the future seems to be an assumption of many of the characters if not JKR's fiat about her fictional world. They may well have good reason. Now, what I'm really pretty sure is true of HP is that telling the future is a very shaky business -- people practicing divination are quite capable of lying, and even when they aren't lying and genuinely see something (which appears to be quite possible) they can misinterpret. I think what /Firenze/ says on the topic in OotP, in fact, may be something we can take at face value. (Basically, that it's tricky and even centaurs can get it wrong by seeing the truth, or aspects of it, and not interpreting correctly.) Actually, I suspect that this may be an intrinsic feature of foreseeing in HP. You can see bits or signs of the future, but it will /never/ have just one possible meaning until after it's all over. > And I don't see why readers aren't suspecting that JKR might play on > this too. Maybe it will turn out that the prophecy is wrong. Maybe > Harry won't be the one to vanquish Voldy. Well, Trelawny has apparently (unless Dumbledore is lying, of course) had two prophecy "fits" that are very distinct from most of her misty predictions. Her second one proved out, and rather quickly at that. Plenty of readers are suggesting everything from Dumbledore being deceitful about the prophecy to having missed bits of it to (and this is the most common, I think) misinterpretation. "I don't think that means what you think it means." This last, I think, is really pretty likely. I'm not absolutely sure of it, but I don't know what /else/ would be the point of making that much fuss over it and in the same book bashing us over the head (briefly) with the idea that even the experts don't always understand prophecies correctly. :) And to tell the truth, I think (currently) that I personally would be more likely to feel cheated by all the buildup leading to "Oh, the prophecy? Fake, unreliable. Never meant a thing!" than by "Aha! Everyone misunderstood it!" (Especially since if the most obvious meaning is taken and believed by the characters, it would appear to be the self-fulfilling type. So far we have little sign of skepticism about it, so Harry suddenly deciding it makes no sense and ignoring it would seem to require some work.) > > (While I'm at it, if any Star Wars fans out there could tell me why > the Jedi are now so convinced that Anakin Skywalker is the "one to > bring balance to the Force", I'd be mighty obliged. Or even that > there is going to be any one to bring balance. We, as the audience, > do know that there is going to be this one and that it is, indeed, > going to be Anakin Skywalker, but the protagonists know no such > thing). Heh. I think, like HP wizards, the Jedi also have some... not necessarily positive, I suppose, but /confirming/ experience with prophecy, though it looks to me as if Yoda, at least, gets rather more wary of it later on. "Always in motion is the future," he says in the original trilogy. But it's also pretty clear that it's possible to get /some/ information on it through the Force. I was in a class once where the professor compared the Aeneid to Star Wars in various respects. When we got to the matter of destiny, however, I thought the parallels broke down somewhat -- the only people in the original trilogy who tell Luke he has a destiny are the bad guys. And the Emperor is very smug in his "I have foreseen it"-ness, but he still falls. In the prequels, it looks as if the Jedi are a little too complacent themselves -- no one seems to have considered alternate interpretations, or actually the one that's probably the most obvious to the audience ("If you're way ahead in a two-sided situation -- 'bringing balance' is not necessarily something you want!"). ...Actually, I'm not sure what they think he's going to do, come to think of it. This is not entirely off topic, honest. ;) Star Wars is an example -- I want to say /another/ example, because I strongly suspect HP of being one as well -- of modern entertainment bringing in the very old theme of misunderstood and/or self-fulfilling prophecies. So I think most likely the one we just saw in OotP is valid -- but even if it IS Harry to vanquish the Dark Lord, and even if he kills him, there will be something weird about it. *g* But then, maybe they will find a way to contradict it outright or ignore it. I'm sure if done well that could be interesting too. :) PK From n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 19:40:48 2003 From: n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com (n_longbottom01) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:40:48 -0000 Subject: centaurs and Trelawney In-Reply-To: <001601c389c4$23c95be0$1ce879a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82195 > > I think DD let's Trelawny stay because she is the keeper of the prophecy...but I think that's far from the main reason. (For one thing, nobody but DD and Harry know that she's the prophet in question... not even Trelawny herself.) I think he does it because it's the right thing to do, because he feels she was fired maliciously, and because she's basically a good person with a lot of potential still. (The latter being much the same reason he hired on Hagrid as the Grounds Keeper and, eventually, CoMC teacher.) > > > Iggy McSnurd > the Prankster now me, n_longbottom01: Trelawny does not remember making the prophecy, because she slipped into a trance, but it may be that the prophecy is recorded in her brain somewhere. Voldemort's spy who overheard the first part of the prophecy before he/she was discovered. There is a good chance that Voldemort knows that Trelawny is the one who spoke the prophecy; the spy probably identified her when he told Voldemort what he/she heard. I believe Dumbledore knew Trelawny's life would be in danger if she left the protection of Hogwarts, and that is why he insisted on allowing Trelawny to stay at the school, even though she was dismissed as a teacher. If Trelawny had left Hogwarts, Voldemort would have found her and would have violently searched her memory for the prophecy. Even if the prophecy isn't really anywhere in her memory, I am sure Voldemort would have made the effort to search her mind, killing her when he was done with her. By keeping Trelawny at Hogwarts, Dumbledore is able to keep her and her potential knowledge of the prophecy protected. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Oct 3 19:46:09 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:46:09 -0000 Subject: It isn't murder ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82196 Richard: > I'm getting a bit tired of all the talk of murder, round here, at > least to the extent that so many seem to have decided that Harry must > be a murderer if he kills Voldemort. Well, even if Harry is worried > about becoming a murderer, I'm not all that concerned that he will be > one at all. Why? Voldemort has tried to kill him repeatedly, and is > still intent upon accomplishing that end. If someone attacks you > with the intent of killing you, and you happen to kill your attacker, > it is self defense, which is considered legally and (for most) > ethically justifiable, NOT MURDER. Murder is a legal term dealing > with certain classes of wrongful killing of another human being. True enough. However, a justifiable killing is not necessarily a guilt-free one. How many people who have killed someone in self- defense skip calmly into the sunset following the incident? Whether you would consider Harry justified in his actions or not will not change the emotions associated with killing another person, and this is where it becomes important to the series. Also, self-defense can be a very grey area. If Harry were to track down Voldemort and launch a surprise attack, thereby killing him, it could be interpreted as revenge rather than self-defense. Unless Voldemort had been in the process of casting another AK, it could be argued that Harry's life was not in immediate danger. After all, if a serial killer is on the loose and shows every sign of repeating his crime, a person still can't legally go out and shoot the guy. -Corinth From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 19:58:18 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:58:18 -0000 Subject: Dark Magic is not Evil Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82197 Tom Wall: > > Oooh, another excellent discussion on Dark Magic! Time to chime in > with something that I've been trying to work out for a while... > > I've engaged in this debate previously, and although I found it to > be an interesting one, the major point that I carried out of it was > that, all in all, we know frightfully little about the Dark Arts in > the Potterverse. There's lots of conjecture, and very little canon; > OoP didn't really help things, either. PK: I'm going to begin by noting that I acknowledge your point regarding limited information and the possibility that we don't know enough to say definitively that all Dark Arts are evil, that the definition seems to be rather vague at present and it isn't beyond possibility that, say, all curses are Dark and the students still use them, that some poisons are non-Dark, etc. I find, however, that some aspects of your argument don't quite work for me. > So, in sum, we know that the Dark Arts at least involve poisons, > potions, and curses. Since the DADA classes primarily focus on > creatures, I'll add them to the list, however reluctantly... I > especially dislike the easy categorization of creatures who are born > a certain way (against their will) as *evil* or *dark,* because in a > way, that assessment contradicts the anti-discrimination goals that > we see developing in the rest of the series' plot. Anyways... > Therefore, we must conclude that those who know and practice the > Dark Arts aren't necessarily 'evil,' because a person always retains > the ability to make the distinction between right and wrong. Clearly > Snape was able to make that distinction at some point. > > So, I'm thinking that it's possible that there's nothing *really* > wrong with the magic you use... what's probably far more significant > is your intended goal by using it. If you're trying to use Dark > Magic to accomplish something worthwhile, then I don't see how you > can be evil. If you're trying to use non-Dark magic to accomplish > something vile, then I don't see how you can be entirely good. I think you're conflating some things here. I think that being able to distinguish between right and wrong doesn't make someone good or evil in itself; it makes someone capable of being morally responsible for one's decisions and actions (as distinct from being practically responsible for the consequences, for which you don't have to have any concept of good, evil, or for that matter cause and effect; you just have to have caused something). I agree entirely that if you're trying to accomplish something vile, being entirely good is rather unlikely. But it's actually possible for very nasty people to have the occasional good goal, and /whatever/ your goal, the means you choose to reach it are likely to have additional consequences. That's the other thing; you seem to equate performing some wrong actions with being (apparently) entirely evil -- or at least, that appears to be an assumption involved in presenting (for instance) "Harry used Cruciatus, but he isn't evil" as support for the idea that the Dark Arts themselves are not evil. I may be misreading you, of course, but as structured that looks like the kind of simplicity you're complimenting JKR for not using. ;) So... to sum up, I see your point about having enough gaps in evidence and odd points (though I'm not sure, for example, that all curses are necessarily Dark; in fact, if some poisons aren't, I don't see why all curses should be -- this would actually seem to fall more toward "Not all destructive magic is Dark" than either "Not all Dark magic is destructive" or "Not all Dark magic is evil") to consider the possibility that Dark Arts may not equate to evil. But I think the arguments relating to those peculiarities of possible uses and so on are more applicable than those based on the idea that there are non-evil people who do use them. From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Fri Oct 3 20:00:44 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:00:44 -0000 Subject: centaurs and Trelawney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n_longbottom01" wrote: >SNIP!!! By keeping Trelawny at > Hogwarts, Dumbledore is able to keep her and her potential knowledge > of the prophecy protected. Yep. Let us not forget what the Dark Lord did to Bertha Jorkins. I do think DD has a heart and protects when he can. The sacrifices that have been made were not all his doing or within his power to prevent. Jennifer From elfmom at msn.com Fri Oct 3 14:27:16 2003 From: elfmom at msn.com (Samantha) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:27:16 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82199 > HG wrote: > "...there was a small, battered case held together with a large > quantity of neatly knotted string. The name 'Professor R. J. > Lupin' was stamped across one corner in peeling letters." (PoA, 74) > > So, I don't know what side of the Lupin argument this contributes > to, but it's clear that he's either been a professor before, or there > was another Professor R. J. Lupin in his family. hg. ~~~Maybe the bag just appears old because Lupin tore it up as a werewolf.???? I think leather would be good to chew on..... I always assumed that this was the reason his clothes were so ragged. I don't understand why he doesn't just keep some good robes/cloaks/bag locked up so that they don't get damaged during "that time of the month". I love Lupin---Maybe Harry will buy him some new robes for Christmas in Book 6....lol. ~Samantha From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 18:26:12 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:26:12 -0000 Subject: A litte more on the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82200 OK, having followed the various prophecy threads for the last couple of days, and having gone back to previous threads on the subject, here's my 2 cents: I think we can all agree that the Prophecy is worded in fairly ambiguous terms, thanks to all the dangling modifiers (he, his, him, neither, etc). This is in contrast to the pretty reasonable clarity of Trelawney's first prediction, which can't really be finnegled to fit any other explanation. Therefore, I think we should look for a moment somewhere other than semantics to explain 1) what the prophecy might mean and 2) how it may be played out in future books Now, one of the key arguments surrounding the prophecy is, should we take it at face value like Dumbledore does? Is Harry *actually* "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord", who will either have to kill LV or be killed by him, "for neither can live while the other survives"? OK I am for the moment sidestepping the issue of the "neither", "either", and "other" and who they might refer to other than HP and LV, because I agree with all those who have pointed out that English grammar would need to be seriously violated for other people to be admitted into the mix (not that it can't happen, i just don't think it's likely). Now, one of the first things that happen to Harry once he rejoins the WW in PS/SS is that he goes to get his wand, and the wand THAT CHOOSES HIM happens to be the brother of LV's wand. And note the wording in which this information is delivered to Harry: p. 85, US paperback edition of SS: "It is very curious indeed that you should be DESTINED for this wand when its brother --why , it's brother gave you that scar. [and a little later] The wand chooses the wizard, remember. . . . I think we must expect great things from you, Mr. Potter." [emphasis mine] Now, here is a piece of the puzzle that no living person, not even DD, could have arranged or predicted (unless we disbelieve the canonic information that only the wand can choose). Harry is destined to own and use the ONLY wand that can save his life when in direct battle with LV's, as we see in GoF (we know this is the only other such wand, Mr. Ollivander says the phoenix (Fawkes) gave only one other feather). No one else (Neville, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, DD, etc.) has been destined to have such protection and such advantage over LV. It seems to me that this proves that Harry is indeed destined, as the prophecy tells us, to vanquish the Dark Lord. How he's going to do that, who will help him, and whether or not he will survive the encounter, remains to be seen. On the other hand, I also want to join the Neville Still Has Some Part To Play In This gang. But that is another story... Any comments? Gorda From furkin1712 at aol.com Thu Oct 2 22:55:25 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:55:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Slytherin and Sirius Black Message-ID: <1ce.11e5873c.2cae06dd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82201 "Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You- Know-Who was one." At this point in the plot, Hagrid knows Sirius well and believes he went very very bad. Cheers, Dumbledad.(snip above) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He might not be referring to Sirius, he only mentions Voldemort. I know reading between the lines is good, but don't read too much or you start making up points that aren't necessarily true or false, like the one you stated. Thats what you think - it's never been proven. Personally I beg to differ. Blue Eyes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 20:24:03 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:24:03 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82202 persephone_kore wrote: Actually, I suspect that this may be an intrinsic feature of foreseeing in HP. You can see bits or signs of the future, but it will /never/ have just one possible meaning until after it's all over. And I don't see why readers aren't suspecting that JKR might play on this too. Maybe it will turn out that the prophecy is wrong. Maybe Harry won't be the one to vanquish Voldy. Kneazle: I concur,(and with HG's post #82166), but I don't believe the prophecy is wrong. I just think the Prophecy can be satisfied by a number of wildly different scenarios. In the Dept of Mysteries the prophecy is labelled "Voldemort and Harry Potter(?)" It may not refer to Harry at all, but that doesn't make it wrong. DD seems convinced the prophecy refers to Harry, but DD has been wrong before. Or DD could be lying. I wonder if someone (Kneasy? Talisman?) has considered the truly horror-inspiring possibility that Dumbledore has been using HP as a decoy for sixteen years to protect Neville Longbottom. I think I just gave myself nightmares. From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Oct 3 20:29:48 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:29:48 -0000 Subject: Significance of Harry's blood in Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Woodward, Deirdre" wrote: > Don't know if this has already been addressed. > > Now that Voldemort has Harry's blood in him, it seems to me that Harry is protected *against* Voldemort. Petunia could die, but Voldemort would still have Harry's blood, so the ancient magic would remain intact. > > I think Voldemort has done himself a grave disservice by using Harry's blood. > > Deirdre > > Jeff: Intresting idea. In my mind I think that Harry and Voldie are related by blood or marriage somehow. I know in COS Tom shows no hint of this, but with the WW being rather inbred, I just think that the connection between Harry and Tom is somehow more than the transfer of some powers. I'm sure I'm wrong, but it's just a feeling I get. Jeff From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 20:34:33 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:34:33 -0000 Subject: Best Things (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82204 This is a filk of the song by the same name from the Lerner and Loewe musical "Paint Your Wagon." I dedicate this filk to Susan Miller. a.k.a. Constance Vigilance. Best Things SCENE: The Weasley Twins wax philosophical, but ever practical? especially when it comes to jokes. FRED: It's good when you laugh GEORGE: Laughing is fun FRED: Or play a nice prank GEORGE: Pranks are so bold FRED: They make you guffaw GEORGE: A guffaw and a half FRED: On that we can bank GEORGE: Bank lots of gold 'Cause now all you blokes >From us can buy jokes. FRED: The wheezes, we got a pot of And if you want a spot of At Ninety-Three, there's a lot of GEORGE: Just waitin' to sell, the dungbombs sure smell; C'mon, give `em hell! FRED and GEORGE: The best things in life are funny And nothing in life will FRED: Put you at ease as good as a wheeze FRED and GEORGE: The best things in life are Weasleys' Wizarding Wheezes: jokes, jokes, jokes. FRED: There's more than just jokes GEORGE: Jokes are enough FRED: There's fireworks too GEORGE: Beautiful jokes FRED: In two different packs GEORGE: Lovable jokes FRED: Just waitin' for you FRED and GEORGE: Saleable jokes A man has his creed And ours is all greed We'll sell you our Canary Creams To satisfy your pranking schemes A galleon buys you laughs and screams FRED: Those tricks with panache We'll sell in a flash Just give us the cash FRED and GEORGE: The best things in life are funny The worst thing in life is... GEORGE: Slavin' all day; all work, no play FRED and GEORGE: The best things in life are Weasleys' Wizarding Wheezes: jokes, jokes, jokes, The best things in life are funny The worst thing in life is... Life in a rut, without a knut. The best things is life are Weasleys' Wizarding Wheezes: jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes. Shelves upon shelves full of Sneaky, clever, howlingly funny Jokes -Haggridd From two4menone4you88 at aol.com Fri Oct 3 20:36:19 2003 From: two4menone4you88 at aol.com (yairadubin) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:36:19 -0000 Subject: Will Draco come back? & Character development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82205 A lot of people have been writing that Draco has emerged as a clear slytherin leader and that he and his "gang" will continue to serve as a counterforce to Harry and the DA. I'm tempted to disagree. In OOP the sorting hat's song was quite unusual in comparison to it's previous songs. It was actually giving advice to the wizarding world, namely that the houses had to unite or destruction would come. I think that it's not too much of a stretch to assume that JKR means to end the books with a unified hogwarts, or we'd have to assume they are eventually going to arrive at thier downfall (if the sorting hat has any significance). Anyway, I therefore am a strong believer in Draco's Redemption, because I believe that's the ultimate event that'll lead to a unified hogwarts because really the most conflict between the house is occuring between Gryffindor and Slytherin. Just my two cents, *Yaira* From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Oct 3 20:50:05 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:50:05 -0000 Subject: Hyperbolic Chapter Titles and Snape's worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82206 Golly wrote: > When Rowling says something point blank > about a character, like hair colour, I believe it. Not any more we don't. Unregistered metamorphmagus, anyone? The point being that something that, for four books, is almost unfailingly noted as a sort of signature tune for each character suddenly becomes mutable and relative in the fifth book. More generally, we have IMO an almost overwhelming weight of evidence that one of JKR's favourite tricks is to create a great degree of certainty about something, and then to start to undermine it. > Same is true > about any point blank given information. Surely it's when JKR looks us with her big blue eyes and says "would I lie to you?" that we should most be on our guard? Personally, I find it suits my interpretation of the Pensieve scene that it really *is* Snape's worst memory: any misdirection concerns what *aspect* of that scene makes it the worst. However, it seems to me perfectly consistent with the narration for there to turn out to be a still worse memory - say, seeing a fellow DE killed by Voldemort because V blames him for something Snape has done in his capacity as spy, because we can read the title as Harry's POV. David From editor at texas.net Fri Oct 3 20:57:18 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:57:18 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black ? In-Reply-To: <200310032051.36243.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82207 Silmariel: > Read #79045 from sevenhundredandthirteen, my reply number #79099 and > Talisman's #79635. If this is not explained there, please point it. Amanda-now: I remember these going by; will reread tonight and reply if necessary. Amanda-then: > >So. To Sirius. Harry has experienced that event. Sirius died. If > he, or anyone, decides to take a time-turner back and saved Sirius, > Harry's memory of the event would include Sirius surviving. It > doesn't. So nobody *will* be taking a time-turner and doing it, > either. > > > They may even take a time-turner and *try*--but they will fail, > because the event as it has occurred includes Sirius' death. Silmariel: > It's possible but difficult, risky and the author has not written > it. Amanda-now: My point exactly. The author has not written it. Sirius *died.* Silmariel > Ok. Let's theorice. A: witness of Sirius death sends B back in time > with two instructions: grab a timeturner and trow this little ball > of busting light into that room at given time. Main instruction > acomplished, remains the necessity to start the time travel, since > you obtained what you wanted, the second tt. > > So the time-travel is not erased by the paradox: > > If you travel in time to save sirius and you save him, there is no > need for the time travel, as he didn't die. Amanda-now: But he *did* die, so we know it didn't work--unless he was snatched by our rescuers and taken somewhere. Character reaction in canon, though, makes it pretty clear that going through that arch is fatal, even if the spell didn't kill him to begin with. Silmariel: > Second task: throw the ball of light. Don't say it's not canon, > please, muggles can do it. If not, choose launching a bomb of > pepper, or whatever alters drastically the situation. > > In a 'past can be changed', this scenario can be resolved. They will > remember the pepper (who wouldn't?) so it can be deducted within > the context of the story, as with Harry and the patronus. It's just > I don't think it's worth the risk. Amanda-now: I am pretty much *completely* not following you. If an attempt had been made--that in the future, if they decide to go back in time to make this attempt--then we, viewers of the event the "first" time, would have seen the effects of anything the rescuers did. We may have. My point is, if they did, it didn't work, because the past we remember has Sirius dying in it. We cannot go back and experience a new "past." It has occurred; if future rescuers were in it, they failed. Amanda-then: > > I'm just saying that she follows her own rules, > and judging by the way the time-turner operated in PoA, its use to > *change* an event is not possible. Silmariel: > I know we are not reading the same book, but my interpretation of > time is not contradictory with the books, so far. Amanda-now: We are indeed reading the same book. This is what "interpretation" means. We are extrapolating different theories from the same information. I'll read the earlier posts tonight. I think when they went by originally, I was time-turnered-out. ~Amanda From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Oct 3 21:08:34 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:08:34 -0000 Subject: centaurs and Trelawney In-Reply-To: <001601c389c4$23c95be0$1ce879a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > (For one thing, nobody but DD > and Harry know that she's the prophet in question... not even Trelawny > herself.) I disagree. There was the eavesdropper. He knew that Dumbledore was going into Trelawney's room and than he heard a part of the prophecy. That means, he knows that Trelawney made the prophecy and probably told Voldemort. Or if he didn't know, that it was Trelawney's room, than surely Voldemort found out, that Trelawney "accidentally" became Divination professor right after someone made a prophecy to Dumbledore. Not to mention, that Trelawney's initials were on the prophecy. So at least the one who made the cristal ball, must know, who the prophet is, too. Hickengruendler From rredordead at aol.com Fri Oct 3 21:16:20 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:16:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82209 James: "When I read that it crossed my mind that something more was going on. (snip) So, I don't know what side of the Lupin argument this contributes to, but it's clear that he's either been a professor before, or there was another Professor R. J. Lupin in his family. Me: No disagree. He briefcase is his old school bag. It was quite common for kids who who went to private schools in the 1970's and earlier, to carry briefcases with their names printed on them for identification. Old fashioned to us now but this was long before canvas or sports bags became available or fashionable. Not only is Lupin poor and unable to afford anything so extravagant as a new bag, I think going back to Hogwarts to teach probably felt as if he was reliving his school days, so why not take his old school bag. Mandy From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 21:20:16 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:20:16 -0000 Subject: Scar as Ancient Rune In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" > wrote: > >> > By the way, we know Lily's "sacrifice" didn't leave a physical mark on Harry. (SS 299) I suggest to you that the scar on Harry's head is indeed the defensive rune "eihwaz," (OoP 715) and a consequence of Dumbledore's charm. This, of course, implies pre- meditation and orchestration. (Wouldn't do to have LV come knocking when Lily was upstairs taking a nap and Harry was bouncing on his Daddy's knee in the living room.) > Talisman interjects, looking perplexed: Is the following section your idea Arya? It certainly isn't mine, but I think the way your previous message is laid out it looks like it resumed my text (which it did not). >Arya? wrote?: > But you see, Harry had the scar/cut on his head already when Hagrid brought him to the Dursleys and Dumbledore. Yes, we do have the missing 24 hours of time between Halloween when Lily and James were killed and Nov 2 in the morning when Harry os found on the doorstep, but still, it having been a "cut" on his head, are you really suggesting that Dumbledore *carved* it into his head? Talisman: I certainly don't think DD carved anything into H's head. The Eihwaz is the effect of LV's A.K. bouncing off DD's previously applied runic shield charm. Sheesh. Arya: And Dumbledore clearly calls it a scar when he compares it to the one he has on his knee of the London underground. Talisman: ?????? Well, it IS a scar. I don't think anyone doesn't know that. What is your point? That a scar can't be rune shaped? That a scar can't be rune shaped for a reason? You don't have any canon for that. Arya: I do see merit and links to the scar being the actual shape and with some conducting ability of the properties inheirent in the rune, however. I see it more likely that it the scar, was a marl from the curse that failed still, and may just have manifested itself in the form of a rune. Talisman: Well, then you are obviously among the "plot by coincidence, JKR doesn't really have a point when she writes" crowd. Have a nice day. > >Arya: > Eihwaz (linked to Yew--voldemort's wand) and immortality and power > may be a good choice as could be the Sowulo (lightening bolt shape) rune that is linked to the Sun (Harry's astrological sign is Leo, the sign of the sun), honor (a gryffindor trait), the life- force (particularly coincidental for "The Boy Who Lived"), and it also linked to a mythological "sword of flame" or "cleansing fire" (Goes with Gryffindors being the House of the element Fire and his scar always seems to burn). Talisman: Well, yes, others have speculated about various runes--including Sowulo--in the very recent past. As Corinthum pointed out to some of them(and I thank her again)Eihwaz JUST HAPPENS to be the one JKR brought to our attention, it also JUST HAPPENS to mean defense and it also JUST HAPPENS to resemble a lightning bolt. Also, DD JUST HAPPENS to tell us that the blood-protection shield is the result of a defensive charm (which would mean an enchantment, not a carving) that DD worked on H. If you re-read ##81908 and 82031 with all of this in mind you may arrive at a closer understanding of what I was saying. Talisman, looking for a spa-sized tub of murtlap essense. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 21:24:22 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:24:22 -0000 Subject: It isn't murder ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "berkana_dianic" wrote: > I agree with you Richard. Voldemort has tried to kill Harry since he > was a baby. He even invaded Quirell (wrong spelling I think), just to > get to Harry. He tortured Harry over his own fathers grave and > killed Cedric whilst he stood beside Harry. If Harry was to kill > Voldemort, in the end and I truly hope he does, then NO it wouldn't > be classed as murder, because Voldemort has tried to kill him more > than once. That to me is self defense, but now wasn't the prophecy > in OotP something like One can not survive without the other, so if > Harry dies, then Voldemort dies? Richard here: First, whether it is murder depends on the context of the act. Some might argue that Harry murdered Quirrell, but this was decidedly an act of self-defense, and in part the death was due to Voldemort's departure from Quirrell's body (or so I believe). Now, personally, I think the reason Harry's hands caused such pain for Quirrell was that Voldemort was in there with him ... which is also part of the reason I really wonder how literal the "die at the other's hands" part of the OotP prophecy is ... If Harry encounters in a similar crisis of combat and kills Voldemort then, it will be self defense, pure and simple. If, on the other hand, Harry were to go out of his way to track Voldemort down with the intention of killing him, that gets into the realm of murder ... but I just cannot see Harry doing that without extreme provocation. The middle ground, ethically speaking, lies in what other circumstances they might encounter each other. If Harry simply keeps placing himself (and others) in positions of risk, he might eventually be considered to have displayed a casual disregard for safety or for human life, which gets into the realm of manslaughter. Still, Voldemort, as the active pursuer of Harry's death, isn't likely to give Harry much of a chance for anything but self defense. As for the prophecy, the "either" is the key to exclusivity. One of them must die at the other's hands, but not both ... which regrettably does NOT mean that Harry can't die due to other causes AFTER Voldemort's demise. > It has been a long time since read the book, so I am so sorry > if I have just come up with that prophecy, but if I am correct, > then there is no point talking about what if Harry murders > Voldemort, or visa versa, because when Harry dies, then so will > Voldemort and visa versa The English "either" really does mean "one or the other, but not both," even if common usage has started to erode the meaning. It is more sloppiness on the part of us mere mortals that the confusion arises. As I have taught logic and computer programming, I can't tell you how many times I've had to pound it into students that "or" by itself indicates "one, the other or both," while "either/or" indicates "one or the other, but NOT both." After about the twentieth time, I started to understand why my parents and my grade school English teachers were so insistent upon getting the meanings of words right each and every time. The sad part is that though I've continued this insistence with my daughter, her teachers have been much less concerned with such minor details. I therefore wonder if we are not raising a generation that will be incapable of stating important ideas in concise and unambiguous manner. Richard, whose English major mother is again shining through. From rredordead at aol.com Fri Oct 3 21:34:14 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:34:14 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle (was: Voldemort's name) In-Reply-To: <001b01c388ee$11d3e800$f8e879a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82212 Iggy: With the Malfoy fanaticism about purebloods, I don't think Lucius knows...otherwise, I honestly don't think the Malfoys would support him if they found out. Me: I think Lucius knows exactly who LV is and is simply using him to advance his own ambitions for power. After all many people avidly supported Hitler and his claims that the Germans were the master race even though he himself was not German. It was irrelevant, just as LV being a mudblood is in the Dark WW, as long as the majority doesn't know. LV has taken on the mantel of destroying all non Pure Blooded wizards, leaving a pure master race behind, and that is just fine by Lucius Malfoy, after all he can step in and take over when the truth about LV finally comes out. Lucius' collection of Dark Material, his ancient, well-connected family and Lucius' own wealth, power and influence put him in a position where there is no way he can not know the truth about LV. Besides there was no mention he was surprised by Harry's 'revelation' in the MOM that so upset Bellatrix. Mandy From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 21:38:51 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:38:51 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82213 Mandy (ghinghapuss) said (snipped): "[His] briefcase is his old school bag." hg replies: As I said in my post and in the quote from the book, the bag says, "*Professor* R. J. Lupin." hg. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 21:39:29 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:39:29 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82214 Mandy (ghinghapuss) said (snipped): "[His] briefcase is his old school bag." hg replies: As I said in my post and in the quote from the book, the bag says, "*Professor* R. J. Lupin." hg. From rredordead at aol.com Fri Oct 3 21:49:05 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:49:05 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82215 jwcpgh at y... wrote: The real problem of course, is Kreachur (boos and hisses welcome). Who in the Order now has the power to shut him up? Can he be bequeathed just as any other piece of family property can be? *winces* If so, then you'd think he would be bound to his inheritor as he was to his previous owner and compelled to keep that person's secrets and his silence. That's easy. The Blacks had a retirement plan for house elves, when they could no longer carry a tea tray. Just hand Kreachur a magically heavy or unbalanced tea tray, and he'll insist on doing the right thing. No me: Oh ...brutal Lol. I think we'll find Kreachur will already have move into Malfoy Mansion. He knows there is no one left to care for at Grimmauld Place and I think his more loyal to the 'family' than the 'House'. So that begs the question what will he to do with all his secrets? Spill the beans of course throwing the Order into chaos. But with Lucius tucked up in a particularly filthy cell in Azkaban I hope, although he will probably have on of those 'special Hilton suits' reserved for rich power prisoners, what will Narcissa and Draco do with the information? Are either one of them in contact with LV? Does Draco want to be a DE, if so here's his chance? And will Narcissa let him? Mandy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Oct 3 21:51:30 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:51:30 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tobyreiner" wrote: > I just don't understand why Dumbledore and Voldemort are so convinced > that Trewlawny's prophecy is correct. Is there any proof that it will > be? Isn't it possible that her seeing eye got things out of whack? Do > we know for certain that seers never make mistakes? > Jen: The way I look at it, a Prophecy significantly raises the *probability* of an event occurring, but doesn't demand that an event occur (or that it is fulfilled in a specific way). It's like in POA, when Dumbledore tells Harry: "...Hasn't your experience with the Time-Turner taught you anything, Harry? The consequences of our actions are so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is very difficult, indeed....." (Dumbledore, POA chap. 21, p. 426). The same holds true with a Prophecy, IMO. Dumbledore received Prophecy #1, assumed a high probability that it was true, and set in motion a plan to determine the correct person the Prophecy refers to and a protection plan. But any number of things could interfere with the fulfillment of the prophecy, and any number of outcomes could fulfill the Prophecy (see HG's post #82166). With Prophecy # 2, there wasn't any time to make preparations. It was fulfilled in a short amount of time. But we saw during the course of events that any number of events happening in a different way *could* have kept the Prophecy from being fulfilled. If Snape didn't interfere, if Lupin had taken his potion, if Ron didn't have a broken leg and could have tackled Wormtail....then the Prophecy might *not* have been fulfilled, that night anyway. So, it's all about the odds I'd say. The stakes get very high when a legitimate Prophecy is made. From rredordead at aol.com Fri Oct 3 21:56:51 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:56:51 -0000 Subject: Was Miss Marvolio's sacrifice the same as Lilys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82217 I was thinking about Lily's sacrifice, dying for her son and the protection it has put on Harry, and it occurred to me that Tom Riddle must have the same protection, as his mother also made the ultimate sacrifice and died for him, in childbirth. Was Miss Marvolio's sacrifice that which enabled Voldemort become as invincible as he is? Mandy From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Oct 3 21:57:08 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:57:08 -0000 Subject: Hyperbolic Chapter Titles and Snape's worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > Golly wrote: > > >> Personally, I find it suits my interpretation of the Pensieve scene > that it really *is* Snape's worst memory: any misdirection concerns > what *aspect* of that scene makes it the worst. However, it seems > to me perfectly consistent with the narration for there to turn out > to be a still worse memory - say, seeing a fellow DE killed by > Voldemort because V blames him for something Snape has done in his > capacity as spy, because we can read the title as Harry's POV. > > David June thinks: Take a careful look at these books... Who is actually telling the story? We don't actually know this until all the story is told cf. Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion etc. In LOTR it is Frodo, then Sam. It is not Snape's worst memory IMO until he comes out and says so. It is at present (by which I mean what we know of canon) Harry's knowledge of what he believes to be Snape's worst memory - Harry sees it from his own viewpoint of embarrassment. I don't recall Snape saying anything along the lines of "You will not tell anyone about this - it is my worst memory!" Snape put the memory in the pensieve because he didn't want Harry to see it. QED. He also put two other memories in there as well - which we don't see. Why hide these memories from Harry? Elementary my dear Watson. Cherchez la femme. Why isn't the memory of Snape nearly being eaten by Lupin there? Cherchez la femme. The famous "prank" - absent. Who is in there - Lily Evans. It is Snape's memory after all. What is in the other memories - I think they are Snape's memories of the following: His "near miss" with Lily Evans - yes I know what he said to her in the pensieive scene. Do you think he wasn't sorry? Do you think he didn't try to apologise? Her death. Think this over. He was the eavesdropper at the Hogs Head when Trelawney gave the prophecy. He was also the one who tipped Dumbledore off as to Voldemort knowing the prophecy. Otherwise, why is Dumbledore so reticent as to who these people were when he tells it to Harry? "Oh, Harry, Professor Snape was the one who fitted up your parents to Voldemort, but never mind, he tipped me off that they were a target and I tried to save them..." and sure Harry's just going to deal with this - no problem. Go to the Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them part of this board. Read what Tabouli wrote about the Snape/Lily issue. If you want the novelised version, read this http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Azazello/ or this http://www.fanfiction.net/~azazello I wrote the buggers after all, but after reading what I read on this board. All inspired by Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them... He hated the underpants thing - wouldn't you? But there was worse in his life by far. That's not fanfic - that's logic. Go figure. June "The mind is its own place, and can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven" John Milton, Paradise Lost From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 22:28:15 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:28:15 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82219 tobyreiner asked: >Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? We are suppose to because the really wise, really old genius tells us to? Because Trelawney's eyes roll into the back of her head, and she does not know what happened? (in RL, we would call a fit.) I am not sure I would say everyone believes it to be correct. I guess because I know too many skeptics. Surface read does leave one assuming that the prophecy is correct. We had a prophecy in PoA, and from our view, and Dumbledore's, it came true. (I wonder if Dumbledore registered that prophecy too...what would he gain by doing so?) The prophecy, that pretty much all the readers I know assume came true, was in the style similar to the first one, and by Dumbledore's reaction to the second one, we are told that Trelawney has done this before, and thus we assume Dumbledore trust the first prophecy as much as this second one. But, I think you have already thought of all that. So, I am moving on to your next wonderings. tobyreiner wrote: >Ok, this is *really* bugging me about both my favourite fantasy >series now. What makes it worse is that in both cases the prophecy is >identical and a needless, in fact, stupid, addition to the series. But prophecies are so...so...*epic*. Don't you think? It is often said that making in this world is 90% work and 10% luck. People have always wondered how things happen to other people and not them. They find interesting ways of explaining them. Or rather, try to convince themselves that they are "blessed" too. Prophecies help to explain how the "hero" was picked in a nice mystic, ethereal way. Which is rather romantic as well. Sorry, you are jaded to them. I find the idea that I could be somewhat "predestined" to do something rather enchanting. Thing about the HP prophecy is that it does not spell out him precisely. It is as vague as most prophesies, which makes them ever so annoying. So now we wonder, given the vague nature of prophecy, whether the sides have translated the prophecy correctly...which is the next question you ask. tobyreiner wrote: >I just don't understand why Dumbledore and Voldemort are so convinced >that Trewlawny's prophecy is correct. Is there any proof that it will >be? Isn't it possible that her seeing eye got things out of whack? Do >we know for certain that seers never make mistakes? No. We are not given the chance to understand why they trust it so much. From "our" education of divination, courtesy of Harry, we are given no guidelines of how to tell a real prophecy from mindless ramblings. The professor does not know, so we don't. All we can assume is that the two smartest characters we have been presented with could possibly, in their education and research, know how to distinguish a real prophecy and we know they both believe it to be true. Can we doubt them? Sure. Should we? Depends on your skepticism and trust in the author. Should we trust JKR? I'm a MDDT. My thoughts should be obvious. :D Hard part is how she twisted her words in that prophecy. See, that is the tricky thing *about* prophecies. If your read is proven wrong, you can always read it another way. Kneazle wrote: > In the Dept of Mysteries the prophecy is labelled "Voldemort and > Harry Potter(?)" It may not refer to Harry at all, but that doesn't > make it wrong. DD seems convinced the prophecy refers to Harry, but > DD has been wrong before. Or DD could be lying. I thought the prophecy sphere had "Voldemort and ?" on it until it was determined who it meant. It could be read two ways I guess. (a) the question mark was not removed or (b) the identity of the second person is still vague Kneazle wrote: > I wonder if someone (Kneasy? Talisman?) has considered the truly > horror-inspiring possibility that Dumbledore has been using HP as a > decoy for sixteen years to protect Neville Longbottom. Well I am not Kneasy or Talisman, but I find that thought rather disturbing but intriguing as well. Ok, let me remove my MD hat so this does not mix. Mostly because this will paint a very bleak look on Dumbledore's morals. Now. We have a Dumbledore that has an orphan boy who he believes that Voldemort will think will destroy him. What clues Voldemort has is the scar on Harry and the fact that after he attacked Harry, he was stripped from his body. Now. Dumbledore does work to protect Harry right after the events, but he does not protect Neville as strongly. We can assume this because the death eaters managed to break into the home and torture the family. After those events, Neville went to live with his grandmother, who does support Dumbledore, but she is not mentioned as being a part of the OoP (though that could be a cover.) We then have Dumbledore working to bring Harry's DADA skills high and ignored Neville to a degree except in Snape's bullying. Now, if Dumbledore does believe that Neville is the prophecy boy, then he *really* believes it is Neville, as he is, is enough. And, if that is true, then Dumbledore is *really* lying to Harry. He is putting him in danger over and over and over again just to cover for Neville and his need to be what? Innocent? Protected? A decoy? It is the Sirius posing as the secret keeper to hide Pettigrew all over again? And, we all know how *that* turned out. Melody who thinks that read of Dumbledore makes him just as bad as Crouch Sr. From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 22:29:40 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:29:40 -0000 Subject: Significance of Harry's blood in Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: > Jeff: > > Intresting idea. In my mind I think that Harry and Voldie are > related by blood or marriage somehow. I know in COS Tom shows no hint > of this, but with the WW being rather inbred, I just think that the > connection between Harry and Tom is somehow more than the transfer of > some powers. I'm sure I'm wrong, but it's just a feeling I get. > > > > > Jeff I'm with you, Jeff. But, if you remember, and I don't have the book in front of me to give you the direct canon, but he did say to Harry that they even look somewhat alike. That little point has been stuck in my brain ever since I read the book the first time. Besides, if a spell backfiring caused the transfer of powers, then the battle in the DoM would have reprecussions for all those involved. Yet we see no transfer there. Also, there has to be some kind of affinity between LV and Harry if their wands are "brothers". I suspect JKR has a really big surprise in store for us. D From nianya_c at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 18:39:36 2003 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:39:36 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82221 > Alshain: Sorry, but no go. The point of time-turners is that you can only prevent events which haven't happened yet, not change the past. Sirius hadn't yet been Kissed when Harry and Hermione woke up, so I think your memory deceives you a little bit. If Fudge had had the Kiss administered as soon as he got his hands on Sirius, no time- turner in the world could have saved him, which is why Dumbledore is in such a hurry. > Have to disagree on the time turner issue. If it can only apply to events that haven't happened yet, how can Hermione turn back time to attend a class/exam that is already over? Throughout PoA she was doing just that going back to attend classes which were already finished. Nianya P.S. I think Sirius will come back in some form or fashion (whether alive or not) but the time-turner will not play a part in this. From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 20:36:05 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:36:05 -0000 Subject: centaurs and Trelawney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82222 n_longbottom01: > Even if the prophecy isn't really anywhere in her memory, I am sure Voldemort would have made the effort to search her mind, killing her when he was done with her. By keeping Trelawny at Hogwarts, Dumbledore is able to keep her and her potential knowledge of the prophecy protected. < Kneazle: I am not sure, but she may have been able to retrieve the Prophecy for V as well. She was involved with it, so she might have been able to touch it. Anyone know if this is contradicted by canon? From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 20:46:40 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:46:40 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > I wonder if someone (Kneasy? Talisman?) has considered the truly horror-inspiring possibility that Dumbledore has been using HP as a decoy for sixteen years to protect Neville Longbottom. < It has been made pretty clear that the prophecy does in fact pertain to Harry, in the part where it says that "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal." Did LV go after the Longbottoms that fateful night? No, he headed to Godric's Hollow, and marked Harry, literally and figuratively. Now I may think DD was a little off base for not telling Harry right away about the prophecy, but I don't really think that he would put Harry through five years of emotional hell to protect Neville. Perhaps it's all part of JKR's master plan, but, then again, we aren't reading Neville Longbottom and the Chamber of Secrets, are we? Meri From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 21:05:05 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:05:05 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82224 adsong16 wrote: > It seems to me that this proves that Harry is indeed destined, as the prophecy tells us, to vanquish the Dark Lord. How he's going to do that, who will help him, and whether or not he will survive the encounter, remains to be seen. On the other hand, I also want to join the Neville Still Has Some Part To Play In This gang. But that is another story... < Kneazle255: Reading your post it struck me that Neville touches the Prophecy in the MoM without going crazy. The only two people to handle it are Harry and Neville, I think. I am not sure if once a prophecy globe is removed from the room anyone can then handle it or not. But Neville is the only one who does, besides Harry. COuld the Prophecy *STILL* apply to both equally? From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 21:53:18 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:53:18 -0000 Subject: Significant Characters?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82225 OK, A rehash of an earlier post of mine, but it intrigues me!! I think that in all the books there are characters who are introduced/mentioned who later play prominent roles. In PS/SS Sirius Black is mentioned in the first chapter! At the PS/SS sorting ceremony there are 24 names mentioned. Most of them turn up again later in other books; AND they are either in the DA in OOP or in Slytherin. But there are several names not mentioned again (and the lexicon has nothing but PS/SS on them either). Names we have seen again: Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Terry Boot, Millicent Bulstrode, Lavendar Brown, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Seamus Finnigan, Hermione Granger, Neville Longbottom. Draco Malfoy, (Crabbe and Goyle), Nott, Patil, Patil, Harry Potter, Dean Thomas, Ron Weasley. Who are THESE? Mandy Brocklehurst(Ravenclaw), Moon, Sally-Anne Perks, Lisa Turpin (Ravenclaw). (And, thanks for the reminder, Blaise Zabini.) OK, so we have four students in Harry's year who we have not "seen" again. Two of these do not have their house named. Might this Moon be the unnamed Syltherin boy in OOTP? Others think it's Blaise Zabini. Will we see these four students in the next two books?! Any ideas? Or posts that have discussed this that you can direct me to? :-) Thanks! Hedwigs Talons From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 22:49:08 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:49:08 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82226 > Mandy > I think we'll find Kreachur will already have move into Malfoy > Mansion. He knows there is no one left to care for at Grimmauld > Place and I think his more loyal to the 'family' than the 'House'. > Laura: Do you really think DD would let Kreachur do that? He already knew sometime after the Christmas absence that Kreachur was quite willing to jump ship and hand over the Order to a Black he found more to his taste. I can see DD making sure somehow that Kreachur was temporarily immobilized after learning that the little sneak had set Sirius up. If Sirius survived the DoM battle, fine. If not, something would have to be done with Kreachur. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Oct 3 21:23:45 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:23:45 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > James: > "When I read that it crossed my mind that something more was going > on. (snip) So, I don't know what side of the Lupin argument this > contributes to, but it's clear that he's either been a professor > before, or there was another Professor R. J. Lupin in his family. > > Mandy: > No disagree. He briefcase is his old school bag. > It was quite common for kids who who went to private schools in the > 1970's and earlier, to carry briefcases with their names printed on > them for identification. Geoff: Ah, but why would a kid at a private school in the 1970s have PROFESSOR R J Lupin on his bag? He wasn't a professor when at school and the suggestion in POA is that it is a single stamped inscription - although peeling . From InfiniteWhispers at Aol.com Fri Oct 3 21:16:46 2003 From: InfiniteWhispers at Aol.com (InfiniteWhispers at Aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 17:16:46 EDT Subject: Thrice defied HIM [Harry] Message-ID: <191.1fea324b.2caf413e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82228 "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have a power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..." There's so much talk going on about the prophecy, I'm not sure if anyone thought about it in this way, but I'm going to throw in my two cents just for the fun of it. I think, it makes sense for the 'HIM' they're talking about in "born to those who have thrice defied him" to be Harry, because in that same sentence, they're talking about Harry. The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord [Harry], born to parents who have thrice defied him [Harry], born as the seventh month dies [Harry]... It makes sense to me, but it doesn't hold with what DD tells Harry about the prophecy being about him or Neville b/c they were both born to parents who have 'thrice defied' Voldemort, I does make sense when you read the sentence, though. Harry was born to parents who thrice defied him. Maybe Harry's parents were a bit shady. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 22:54:02 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:54:02 -0000 Subject: Snape is Number One (was My two cents re:the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smtopliff" wrote:smtopliff said: My take on the Prophecy in OOP has been different than other posts I have seen what if that person is Severus Snape?!?! Talisman, twining bat-shaped love knots in her hair, replies: I actually have a section of notes on this, which I can't find (because I've got heaps and files of notes, including scribbles on the backs of envelops, legal pads, grid paper, drawing pads and the backs of old posts.) Someday I'll get them all sorted out, and if I come across the notes and see I've missed something, I'll send it along. I don't place much import in the prophecy, no matter who is meant. But there is as much (or more) evidence to support a Snape interpretation as any other. What I recall of my Snape considerations follows: I think Snape makes a very good candidate for the One-with-the- power. He certainly has the power, and I, for one, can't wait until he is unleashed. (Talisman pauses for a moment to regain control of herself) I agree with you that "born" in the prophecy's context doesn't require issuance from a mother's body, but I don't think we need to add the extra "e" (for borne) either. The prophesy reiterates the born business: "born as the seventh month dies" and then (seemingly redundant, but perhaps to underscore the importance of the phrasing?) "will be born as the seventh month dies.." Both times we have the same born/dies comparison. Of course, months don't literally "die." This is trope. Therefore, a symmetrical analysis of the sentence directs us to use the word "born" figuratively as well. To be figuratively born is to undergo a major life change, especially a change of heart, as when religious converts speak of being "born again." We know Snape has had a change of heart. Snape's switch could certainly have happened before the end of July 1980. DD's re-vouching for Snape in the post-Godric's Hollow DE trials suggests that it was a settled matter with DD by that time. Snape may well have been the one who warned DD of the planned attack, again suggesting that he had switched sides before that time. It would also make for lovely symmetry if Snape's switch time mirrored Wormtail's, i.e., Wormtail had been LV's spy for over a year by Oct. 31, 1981, so if Snape had been DD's man for roughly the same amount of time, that would make a July 1980 transformation just perfect. The people Snape is "born" to are those opposing LV. Thrice can actually mean "greatly" or it can mean threefold, it doesn`t have to mean three temporal incidents. The Order has greatly defied LV, and defies him on at least three philosophical points, e.g.: they 1) are willing to die; 2) accept Muggles/the Muggle born; and , 3) eschew Dark Magic. Of course Snape bears LV's Dark Mark, but LV will also become aware of the fact that Snape has powers at least equal to his own. We already know that Snape can best LV at mind powers: Snape is a greater Occlumens than LV is a Legilimens. (N.B. again, Those who really believe Snape is driven by his teenage grudges would do well to reflect on the kind of emotional control required to be so great an Occlumens.) I expect Snape to show us quite a display of unsuspected powers, and not just vampy ones, either. Snape being the One would also explain why Snape, who has never lied to Harry before, is still telling the truth when he says that nothing in the DoM pertains to Harry. (OoP 538 ) Smt continued: > AND, Snape was brought to them by (who else?) Dorcas Meadowes, the one that Voldemort personally offed . Talisman: I think you do well to notice the significance of LV personally killing Dorcas (esp. since JKR makes the point of telling us how not everyone is "important enough" to warrant personal dispatch ). I don't see any further evidence linking her to the Snape conversion, but I haven't really looked at this angle. Whatever her role, she's worth keeping in mind while we re-read. Talisman, for whom Snape will always be The One, no matter what JKR thinks. From editor at texas.net Fri Oct 3 22:59:36 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:59:36 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82230 Nianya: > Have to disagree on the time turner issue. If it can only apply to > events that haven't happened yet, how can Hermione turn back time to > attend a class/exam that is already over? Throughout PoA she was > doing just that going back to attend classes which were already > finished. As I interpret the time-turner: time's flow involved, for a period, Hermione being in two classes at once. In her own personal experience of the time, she did one class and then the other, sequentially. From an outside perspective, it happened simultaneously--she attended two classes at once. What Hermione did NOT do is change the past. She did NOT go "back" and attend the Charms class she missed. It had already happened, and she missed it. If she had stayed awake and used the turner, she would have been in the class when it happened. She didn't, and she wasn't, and she cannot now go back and re-experience an event that has passed. I refuse to believe that Hermione, of all people, would have simply let it go if there was a way to "re-take" the class. But she didn't-- she went and apologized to Professor Binns. This alone is enough for me to conclude that the turners can't be used to change an event once it has occurred. Because what is experienced in the passage of time, *includes* whatever interference future people have done. They did it in the past, by definition. It's already happened. ~Amanda From Malady579 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 23:24:18 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 23:24:18 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82231 > Kneazle255: > Reading your post it struck me that Neville touches the Prophecy in > the MoM without going crazy. The only two people to handle it are > Harry and Neville, I think. > > I am not sure if once a prophecy globe is removed from the room > anyone can then handle it or not. When Malfoy approached Harry, after Harry took the prophecy off the shelf, he asked Harry to give him the globe. I doubt he would have done that if he would have gone insane after he touched it. I also assume one cannot don gloves and remove the globe either. Maybe Harry has to hand it to someone in order for the globe to be safe for others. It is the handing over from one of the prophesized parties that make the transaction safe. Malfoy is very emphatic that Harry has to hand over the globe before he is killed, stupefied, tortured, ::insert DE pastime here::. I always assumed Malfoy gave those orders to keep them from breaking the prophecy instead of following protocol. Probably because he makes a point of stopping Bellatrix by saying "if you smash it..." (OoP, Ch35). All Malfoy told Harry is "only people who are permitted to retrieve a prophecy from the Dept of Mysteries, Potter, are those about whom it was made..." (OoP, Ch 35). Harry passed the prophecy to Neville, which is the same transaction Malfoy was attempting. Melody From jesmck at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 23:43:55 2003 From: jesmck at yahoo.com (jesmck) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 23:43:55 -0000 Subject: Was Miss Marvolio's sacrifice the same as Lilys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I was thinking about Lily's sacrifice, dying for her son and the > protection it has put on Harry, and it occurred to me that Tom Riddle > must have the same protection, as his mother also made the ultimate > sacrifice and died for him, in childbirth. > > Was Miss Marvolio's sacrifice that which enabled Voldemort become as > invincible as he is? > > Mandy Jessica writes: I don't think that they are the same. While this has never been specified in the canon, I think that Harry is so well protected because of the protection charm that Dumbledore put on him. They knew that LV was going to come after Lily and James, so Dumbledore's charm must have included soemthing to protect Harry in case of thier death. That theory aside, I still don't think that the protection would be the same because their deaths were different. Lily was specifically protecting her child when she died. Tom's mother wasn't, she was giving life, not saving it. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 23:51:37 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 23:51:37 -0000 Subject: Thrice defied HIM [Harry] In-Reply-To: <191.1fea324b.2caf413e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82233 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, InfiniteWhispers at A... wrote: > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born > to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month > dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will > have a power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the > hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..." > > I think, it makes sense for the 'HIM' they're talking about > in "born to those who have thrice defied him" to be Harry, > because in that same sentence, they're talking about Harry. > The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord [Harry], > born to parents who have thrice defied him [Harry], born as > the seventh month dies [Harry]... > > It makes sense to me, but it doesn't hold with what DD tells > Harry about the prophecy being about him or Neville b/c they > were both born to parents who have 'thrice defied' Voldemort, > I does make sense when you read the sentence, though. Harry > was born to parents who thrice defied him. > > Maybe Harry's parents were a bit shady. Richard here: Sorry, but you have joined those who have stepped off the canonical deep end. How do you defy a toddler? Defiance implies refusal to obey, and general to refuse to obey someone in a position of power. A child of fifteen months can be pretty demanding, but hardly in a position of power, particularly in the Wizarding World, where magical development seems to be left until quite late. And parents of toddlers are NOTgenerally regarded as "defying" their progeny at that age, but of "refusing" in one form or another. But don't feel too bad, as I think this is more a matter of slightly "loose" wording on the part of JKR. I think the best explanation for the wording being loose (which it is, since LINGUISTICALLY it is plausible that the "him" is Harry) is that it is pretty clear from the context that the "him" referred to is Voldemort, and it would get a bit stilted if you replaced that "him" with either "the Dark Lord" or "Lord Voldemort." What settles the matter though isn't just that "defied" is used, but that Dumbledore says that it refers to Harry's parents thrice defying Voldemort, and in this case I hear JKR's voice speaking pretty directly through the character of Dumbledore. Richard From urghiggi at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 23:54:45 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 23:54:45 -0000 Subject: FINALLY someone else notices Luna's absence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82234 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > I have posted at least 4 times since June my humbled but increasingly > exasperated opinion that Luna was obviously not on Hogwarts express > and finally someone commented....... shows that persistence pays off.. > ....thanks urghiggi! > urghiggi replies-- Don't thank me. I'm like you -- I want to know where she is -- and I'm a bit worried about her. I think she's a great character and like you, I think she's going to be more important. (JKR hasn't intro'd too many new unimportant characters with a whole chapter of their own......) But y'know, till the heliopaths start marching to the Hogwarts gates, or Hagrid reveals that he's raising a crumple-horned snorkack in his back garden, I reckon most folk aren't going to take her very ...ummm... seriously. (There's a lot of excuse for that, IMHO -- those lion- and eagle-head chapeaux do tend to be somewhat off-putting..... ) urghiggi, Chgo From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 00:12:28 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 00:12:28 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > adsong16 wrote: > > > It seems to me that this proves that Harry is indeed destined, as the > prophecy tells us, to vanquish the Dark Lord. How he's going to do > that, who will help him, and whether or not he will survive the > encounter, remains to be seen. > > On the other hand, I also want to join the Neville Still Has Some > Part To Play In This gang. But that is another story... < > > > Kneazle255: > > Reading your post it struck me that Neville touches the Prophecy in > the MoM without going crazy. The only two people to handle it are > Harry and Neville, I think. > > I am not sure if once a prophecy globe is removed from the room > anyone can then handle it or not. But Neville is the only one who > does, besides Harry. > > COuld the Prophecy *STILL* apply to both equally? Richard here: I think you have forgotten or misinterpreted some of the text regarding the prophecies, as well as some discussions. It is the Ministry (in the person of some official) that places the prophecy in the sphere, and that upon the shelf ... THEN places a charm on it that keeps others from tampering. It is the Ministry's protection of the prophecy, not the prophecy itself, that determines who may handle it and who may not. Once Harry or Voldemort takes the prophecy from its place in the hall of prophecy, anyone can touch it. Harry doesn't have to GIVE it to anyone, as seen by the attempts to Accio it from his possession. (Would Bellatrix really have tried this if she knew it would drive her mad? I think she is crazy enough to, but don't believe this is what would have happened.) Now, the prophecy COULD still refer to Neville, but there is at least one major step that Voldemort must take in order for it to apply. Voldemort must in some manner mark Neville as his equal. I don't see that happening, though. If Voldemort were to come across Neville in some manner, he would likely just kill him without thought, or have one of the Death Eaters do it ... most likely the latter. Neville has been improving, but I don't see him being so improved as to stand up effectively against such odds alone. True, Neville could be in company with others, but he sure didn't fare well in the Battle of the Ministry. Harry, on the other hand, has the brother to Voldemort's wand, and he has now survived multiple attacks by Voldemort and his followers. So, the odds-on bet is that Harry is the one, and JKR would have to do some real fancy pen-work in order to pull off a believable "it's really Neville" twist. Richard From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 4 00:26:35 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 00:26:35 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82236 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > Reading your post it struck me that Neville touches the Prophecy in > the MoM without going crazy. The only two people to handle it are > Harry and Neville, I think. Yes. > I am not sure if once a prophecy globe is removed from the room > anyone can then handle it or not. But Neville is the only one who > does, besides Harry. Lucius Malfoy keeps telling Harry to give him the prophecy and in several instances, miscelanous DE's try to grab or force or magic the prophecy out of harry's hand. None seem to worry about going insane. So I think that once the prophecy is removed from the shelf, it can be handled by just about anyone. > COuld the Prophecy *STILL* apply to both equally? I believe that the label on the prophecy is not really related to who it applies to. The protection was set by DoM employees and refers to the person (or persons) they believe are the subjects of the prophecy. In other words, Harry being able to remove the prophecy only proves that DoM employees thought he was the one the prophecy meant when they relabeled it, but it may not be true. That said, I can't see how the prophecy could apply to Neville at this point. Neville was never marked by Voldemort (although I suspect he may have had a memory charm applied to him, or he may have been present when his parents were tortured and his poor memory may be the result of the shock) nor has he ever even met Voldemort. Neville hasn't really shown any indications that he could in any way, shape or form be considered Voldemort's equal. He has no special power or knowledge of any sort, e.g. he does not speak Parceltongue - aparently of all living wizards only Voldemort and Harry do; he does not own a wand that is akin to Voldemort's (although it is possible that one of Fawkes' newly shed feathers may end up in his upcoming new wand). He is clearly less talented than Harry. He has never done anything remarkable to speak of - he faced the trio in SS/PS and he followed Harry to the MoM - together with four other students. He did somewhat better than the other kids (but certainly not better than Harry) during the fight in the MoM but mainly due to courage, determination and luck - not skill (his spells generally miss and his wand and nose get broken early on, rendering him unable to use magic in the fight). So the prophecy without a doubt applies to Harry. However, I am sure that Neville has an important part to play in bringing it about. Perhaps he will become the No.2 person under Harry in any type of anti-Voldemort organization that will rise in coming books? I can't see Ron in that role and Hermione made it clear that her interests lie elsewhere than in dedicating her life to fighting dark wizards. I think that just like Harry is set up as Voldemort's counterpart, Neville may be set up to eventually defeat Bellatrix Lestrange - who is probably slated to become Voldemort's number 2 now that Malfoy has been arrested. Salit From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 4 00:29:51 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 00:29:51 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Ah, but why would a kid at a private school in the 1970s have > PROFESSOR R J Lupin on his bag? He wasn't a professor when at school > and the suggestion in POA is that it is a single stamped inscription - > although peeling . I don't have the book in front of me, but the description was an old tattered bag with an inscription on it which letters are peeling. The fact that the letters are peeling is no proof that they were there for long. Perhaps he used poor glue... :-) Salit From oppen at mycns.net Sat Oct 4 00:49:52 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:49:52 -0500 Subject: Neville's poor memory Message-ID: <007b01c38a11$6cd23b20$11570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 82238 You know---I wonder whether anybody's actually examined Neville to see if there's something wrong with him. If his memory problems result from having been tortured, I'd think that the Healers at St.Mungo's could do something, and he's there a lot to visit his parents _anyway_...I wonder if any of the Healers have suggested it to his grandmother? Or would they know? From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Oct 4 01:31:30 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:31:30 -0000 Subject: Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: > But y'know, till the heliopaths start marching to the Hogwarts gates, or Hagrid > reveals that he's raising a crumple-horned snorkack in his back garden, I > reckon most folk aren't going to take her very ...ummm... seriously. (There's a > lot of excuse for that, IMHO -- those lion- and eagle-head chapeaux do tend to > be somewhat off-putting..... ) Jen: (laughing)You do have a way of putting things, urghiggi! My hope, though, is that the Trio will understand and accept Luna for her gifts without any *tangible* proof. I've read on here before that Hermione represents the Mind, Ron the Heart, and Harry the Soul. To be successful in their quest, they need to now include Luna, the Intuition. She is the missing piece from Harry's equation, the power he denies himself every time he runs into an adventure without consulting his internal compass. He turns to Hermione for knowledge, Ron to love him like a brother, and now he needs Luna to remind him to calm down and trust his instincts. Only then will Harry finally be the "One with the Power to Vanquish the Dark Lord." And Harry, at least, is recognizing Luna for who she is. I don't think Ron is far behind, and even Hermione admitted that "real Prophecies exist" so she'll come around if she can suspend her reality a bit. But it would be icing on the cake if the heliopaths come marching out of the MOM! From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 00:48:20 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 00:48:20 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82240 adsong16 wrote: > It seems to me that this proves that Harry is indeed destined, as the prophecy tells us, to vanquish the Dark Lord. How he's going to do that, who will help him, and whether or not he will survive the encounter, remains to be seen. On the other hand, I also want to join the Neville Still Has Some Part To Play In This gang. But that is another story... >>> Kneazle255: Reading your post it struck me that Neville touches the Prophecy in the MoM without going crazy. The only two people to handle it are Harry and Neville, I think. I am not sure if once a prophecy globe is removed from the room anyone can then handle it or not. But Neville is the only one who does, besides Harry. Could the Prophecy *STILL* apply to both equally? Richard here: > I think you have forgotten or misinterpreted some of the text regarding the prophecies, as well as some discussions. It is the Ministry (in the person of some official) that places the prophecy in the sphere, and that upon the shelf ... THEN places a charm on it that keeps others from tampering. It is the Ministry's protection of the prophecy, not the prophecy itself, that determines who may handle it and who may not. Once Harry or Voldemort takes the prophecy from its place in the hall of prophecy, anyone can touch it. Harry doesn't have to GIVE it to anyone, as seen by the attempts to Accio it from his possession. Would Bellatrix really have tried this if she knew it would drive her mad? I think she is crazy enough to, but don't believe this is what would have happened.) >>> Kneazle writes: I don't disagree with you. But I don't think the text says this either. I'll admit I could be wrong, but the charm that protects prophecies is not specified in the text nor are its limits. I am not sure when it ended, if it ever did. Nor do we know how the deatheaters intended to take possession of it. They may very well have some method of taking the ball once it was off the shelf without touching it. Like Accio'ing it straight into a bag or something. I am not certain about anything, but it bears some investigation. We know no one who's not involved can touch the thing. We know Neville and Harry both hold it, and neither goes crazy. Neville was the only other kid who born at the right time in the UK. Richard writes: > Now, the prophecy COULD still refer to Neville, but there is at least one major step that Voldemort must take in order for it to apply. Voldemort must in some manner mark Neville as his equal. I don't see that happening, though. If Voldemort were to come across Neville in some manner, he would likely just kill him without thought, or have one of the Death Eaters do it ... most likely the latter. Neville has been improving, but I don't see him being so improved as to stand up effectively against such odds alone. <<< Kneazle responds: I agree its not likely, but an insulting bow by Voldemort and an mocking offer to duel Neville would suffice to mark him as an equal. That is not so far-fetched. Richard says: > Neville could be in company with others, but he sure didn't fare well in the Battle of the Ministry. <<< Kneazle writes: I disagree, He lasted longer than any of the other DA members. I think JKR used a bit of humor (stubefy! stubefy!) to deflect us from that fact. Richard says: > Harry, on the other hand,has the brother to Voldemort's wand, and he has now survived multiple attacks by Voldemort and his followers. So, the odds-on bet is that Harry is the one, and JKR would have to do some real fancy pen-work in order to pull off a believable "it's really Neville" twist. <<< Kneazle writes: Not necessarily. I seriously doubt the power the dark lord knows not is raw wizardly power. It is more likely something like trust, loyalty, faith, or love, things that Neville has in abundance. I believe that there are multiple ways the prophecy could play out. Here's one: ...Neville and Harry wind up facing the dark lord together. ...V laughs at Neville and in a repeat of the GoF scene, mockingly offers to duel Neville. (last requirement fulfilled) ...Neville sacrifices himself for Harry. ...Harry gets in the final AK curse and V is destroyed. Which boy does the prophecy refer to? Who had the power the dark lord knows not? Thanks, Richard, for the post, Kneazle From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 01:00:21 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:00:21 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82241 Salit writes: > That said, I can't see how the prophecy could apply to Neville at this point. Neville was never marked by Voldemort (although I suspect he may have had a memory charm applied to him, or he may have been present when his parents were tortured and his poor memory may be the result of the shock) nor has he ever even met Voldemort. Neville hasn't really shown any indications that he could in any way, shape or form be considered Voldemort's equal. He has no special power or knowledge of any sort, e.g. he does not speak Parceltongue - aparently of all living wizards only Voldemort and Harry do; he does not own a wand that is akin to Voldemort's (although it is possible that one of Fawkes' newly shed feathers may end up in his upcoming new wand). He is clearly less talented than Harry. He has never done anything remarkable to speak of - he faced the trio in SS/PS and he followed Harry to the MoM - together with four other students. He did somewhat better than the other kids (but certainly not better than Harry) during the fight in the MoM but mainly due to courage, determination and luck - not skill (his spells generally miss and his wand and nose get broken early on, rendering him unable to use magic in the fight). <<< Kneazle responds: All of Harry's whiz-bang talents and capabilities are things that the Dark Lord understands completely. What Voldemort does not understand are things like love and faith. These things Neville has in abundance. I'd also like to point out that in these stories, it is not unheard of for the hero to carry the weight until the very last step when someone else steps in and gets the job done. Like Gollum in Lord of the Rings. I just don't think it is an impossible scenario. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Oct 4 01:00:32 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 20:00:32 -0500 Subject: Lupin's bag References: Message-ID: <3F7E1BB0.70606@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82242 Salit wrote: > I don't have the book in front of me, but the description was an old > tattered bag with an inscription on it which letters are peeling. The > fact that the letters are peeling is no proof that they were there for > long. Perhaps he used poor glue... :-) Perhaps, he used a spell to change the name, but a spell could not make the bag new again or repair age damage? Perhaps the inscription was new, but the bag was old? Perhaps his father had the same name as he does and was a professor? Maybe he was a professor at another school before and had previous experience? Maybe he is not very good at attaching letters to his bag? Jazmyn From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 01:43:46 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:43:46 -0000 Subject: who calls Voldie "Dark Lord"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82243 I'm just wondering if what people and creatures call LV in conversation has anything to do with their allegiance? We've all seen that the DE's call Voldemort the "Dark Lord", right? So, do only followers of LV call him that, or not? In COS Dobby calls LV the "Dark Lord" and the Prophecy bauble says "The Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter". Who wrote that on the sphere? HedwigsTalons Who likes Dobby, and doesn't want him to turn out to be evil. PS Lead me to the msg. #'s if this has been discussed before! From editor at texas.net Sat Oct 4 01:52:57 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:52:57 -0000 Subject: Long post on old time-turner threads In-Reply-To: <200308282158.18058.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82244 Because I *did* promise, I have gone back and read the time-travel posts Silmariel indicated (79045, 79099, and 79635). Commentary follows for each. 79045--A post by Laurasia. Eloquent and in my opinion, absolutely correct and spot-on. (raises glass to Laurasia, forgets self is a geist, pours butterbeer through self onto floor) 79099--Silmariel's response to Laurasia. In general, I get the same "feeling" from Silmariel's logic as I do (no offense, Pip, Wolf, Melody) from the Magic Dishwasher. Yes, I suppose, given a lot of coincidences and stretches of the imagination, your interpretation *might* be possible--but it's not the best fit to the canon. A few specific comments on 79099: Silmariel: Why would Hermione use the tt when she has been caught? What for? To get a class? Even if she had not been lectured, it wouldn't be a sensible thing to do. Amanda: Are you kidding? When she missed a class that was on something she is *certain* will be on the exam? And if you are correct, it wouldn't matter if she'd been caught, as soon as she went back and changed time, that future would have been altered and the boys would no longer remember she had ever missed Charms. (Laurasia:) Who cast the Patronus the first time? Silmariel: Snape. Amanda: ROFLMAO!!! Wow, I'd never seen this proposed. Seriously. I'm sorry. There's not a shred of canon to support this. Nowhere, never anyplace, *ever* in canon has it been even *remotely* hinted that either Harry or James resembled Snape in the slightest. Yet the caster of the Patronus looked so much like James that Harry believed it *was* James. Who have we been told resembles James to an amazing degree? Harry. Nor is there a shred of canon to indicate that Snape even knows how to cast the Patronus charm; there was a lively thread (before OoP, I believe) as to the likelihood of his even being able to, given that it requires a happy memory and Snape doesn't seem to be too gifted in that area. (Laurasia:) Where was s/he [the caster] the second time? Or, Why didn't s/he try to cast the Patronus the second time? Silmariel: Pretending to be unconscious and he didn't need it, H2 was there to cast it. Amanda: I defy *anyone* to float unconscious while a hundred dementors approach as closely as they do. And that is where Snape was, floating unconscious *very close* to Harry and Hermione. He would have had to get himself across the lake in the blink of an eye to have cast the spell, even if he was not unconscious and the dementors weren't affecting him too. Silmariel: The first set doesn't include the vision of James. Amanda: Yes it does. Harry's thoughts immediately after the attack, and those while he is talking to Hermione while waiting with Buckbeak, indicate that it was what Harry *saw* of the caster that made him believe it was James. Silmariel: Harry loses vision, Snape cast patronus, Harry gets focus again, Snape invents the first lie he can, something as 'did you see him, Harry, by the lake' 'who' 'no one' and then goes 'unconscios/vague' again, as if he where almost unable to move. Amanda: I find this a bit hard to follow--but Snape does not speak to either Harry or Hermione after the attack; they are unconscious. He could not have fed them a lie. Silmariel: It has to be refined, but it is a good starting point. Amanda: It doesn't hold water. It's not just a bad fit to canon; canon contradicts it. (Laurasia:) If Harry can change time and suffer no consequences, why not just send one version of himself back to use Buckbeak to rescue Sirius, and another version of himself to catch Wormtail? Silmariel: Because he has been lectured on what you can and can't do in time travel, and believed explanations? Amanda: Harry has NOT been lectured on time-turners. Harry had never even *heard* of time turners until about an hour and a half before that instant. All he knows of time-turners is the hurried explanation of Hermione. 78635--Talisman's highly entertaining and well-constructed refutation of Laurasia, and another post by bboy which I didn't read. I *love* her (her?) model with the marker and the action figures. Her interpretation of the flow of time--singular for those outside observing, multiple and serial for those doing the time-jumping-- absolutely agrees with mine. I am intrigued by her statement that Harry had to survive the dementor encounter, in order to exist, in order to be in place to cast the Patronus spell. It bears weight. However, I have read more than one science fiction story which comes down to the fact that fooling around with time involves paradoxes, and it may be that JKR simply didn't think this deeply about the ramifications of Harry saving himself. I think the elegance of her construction, having Harry so much more closely identify himself with James and boost his own self-confidence through this event, is worth the inconsistency. And I think it is just that, an inconsistency, possibly a Flint--because canon fits what these posts have called the "single time stream," better than any other interpretation. One comment I call out: Talisman: Laurasia maintains that Travelers have always achieved their goals, before ever using the Turner, and that they don't actually change anything. Amanda: Not exactly. What I think she maintains, and what I maintain, is that the Travelers are always there. This is, to lift a phrase, time-travel at its deepest, most impenetrable. Choice must play a part, and it defies our intuition to have something that *has* happened depend on a choice that has not been made yet, or even confronted yet. I think we must fall back and paraphrase Harry: they do it, because they already have. It's just one of those things that works out. It's a Mystery; that's why it's in that Department. But do they always succeed? No. In fact, with this whole "can Sirius be saved" thing, I've been saying they may well have tried. Some of the pyrotechnics and spells we see in the confusion of battle may have been would-be rescuers. My point has been that even if they tried, they failed, because it didn't work and Sirius died. Which means that even if Harry gets the idea to try it in Book 6 or 7, all that will happen is that he gets to see Sirius die again. Do you Sirius people really want that? ~Amanda From laikokae at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 01:55:39 2003 From: laikokae at hotmail.com (Kae *) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:55:39 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia's protection of Harry (aside to Ancient Magic vs Dark Magic) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82245 From: "Lisa Cocchiarale" >Jen Reese cited: > >"While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood > dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort.....your > aunt knows this.....She knows that allowing you houseroom may well >have kept you alive for the past fifteen years." (DD, OOTP,chap. 37, .p. 836) > >I must ask (although it may have been addressed elsewhere-I am a newbie >here) why >LV doesn't just kill Petunia. If the blood of Harry's mother no longer >"dwells" at Privet >Drive, wouldn't the ancient magic be negated in this case? > >-Lisa > More to the point, does Lily's blood protection even work against Voldemort anymore? I thought he overcame that little obstacle in book four when he used Harry's blood to resurrect himself. If Voldemort 'shares' Lily's blood protection now that he shares her blood (through Harry's), as he claimed in book four, what's to stop him strolling into Privet Drive and slaughtering Harry? There's obviously more to this whole "Lily's blood" thing than meets the eye. Remember Dumbledore's triumphant glint when Harry told him about Voldemort taking his blood? I'm think Dumbledore knows something about the whole Petunia-Lily-Harry-blood thing that we - and Voldemort - don't. Two cents, Laik. _________________________________________________________________ Chat via SMS. Simply send 'CHAT' to 1889918. More info at http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/MoChat.asp?blipid=6800 From amani at charter.net Sat Oct 4 02:23:12 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:23:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? References: Message-ID: <007b01c38a1e$7632d280$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82246 tobyreiner: I just don't understand why Dumbledore and Voldemort are so convinced that Trewlawny's prophecy is correct. Is there any proof that it will be? Isn't it possible that her seeing eye got things out of whack? Do we know for certain that seers never make mistakes? And I don't see why readers aren't suspecting that JKR might play on this too. Maybe it will turn out that the prophecy is wrong. Maybe Harry won't be the one to vanquish Voldy. Taryn: It would certainly flow with JKR's whole moral of free will and our actions showing who we are. We don't exactly have enough information on seers and how accurate prophecies of this nature have been in the past. It would be an interesting subject to get some more information on, that's for sure. tobyreiner: (While I'm at it, if any Star Wars fans out there could tell me why the Jedi are now so convinced that Anakin Skywalker is the "one to bring balance to the Force", I'd be mighty obliged. Or even that there is going to be any one to bring balance. We, as the audience, do know that there is going to be this one and that it is, indeed, going to be Anakin Skywalker, but the protagonists know no such thing). Taryn: Cause he's so whiny and immature. I'd be convinced he was on his way to he Dark Side, too. :P ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 05:25:43 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 05:25:43 -0000 Subject: Thrice defied HIM [Harry] In-Reply-To: <191.1fea324b.2caf413e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82247 InfiniteWhispers writes in 82228 (snipped): > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born > to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month > dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will > have a power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the > hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..." > > I think, it makes sense for the 'HIM' they're talking about in "born to those who have thrice defied him" to be Harry, because in that same sentence, they're talking about Harry. The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord [Harry], born to parents who have thrice defied him [Harry], born as the seventh month dies [Harry]... > hg replies: I was writing back and forth for awhile with someone who had an unusual theory -- that "born to those who had thrice defied him" did indeed mean that the Dark Lord was born to those who had thrice defied him, because Harry and Ginny are Voldemort's parents. The implications of such a theory are tremendous. It would mean that Voldemort got the "recipe" a little wrong back in the graveyard -- it would have been bone of the enemy/blood of the father -- and so it would have worked, but not quite how he wanted. Ginny has defied LV twice at least (pitching the diary into the toilet; kicking and screaming all the way to the chamber.) Furthermore, JK would have to have Harry and Ginny conceive a child, have Ginny go back in time to 1926 or so, deliver the baby, and die. (Her theory included that Ginny could know that she had to go back in time to save Harry or something and that she then lost her memory somehow...?) I added in our conversations that Ginny could pretend to die (Draught of Living Death -- can be reversed w/ a bezoar, from a goat, thanks to Aberforth). Whew -- that's a tough one. This could certainly qualify as a "power the Dark Lord knows not," couldn't it! The hard part with this, of course, is having Harry and Ginny conceive a child and travel back in time and hook up with Tom Riddle's father somehow to arrange all this; still, there's enough that happens in the Time Turner episode to convince us that what we see is not necessarily what it was -- Buckbeak didn't die, for example. So Tom Riddle's mother, we have heard, died in childbirth; but it wouldn't necessarily be too far off for that death to be faked w/ the DLD. I know it's out there! Don't flame me, I'm just telling you all someone else's theory. It was interesting enough to entertain and discuss, but you guys should know me well enough by now to know I never put all my weight behind any one theory b/c I can never see all the parts -- and so I'll admit anything is a possibility until I read the last word of book 7. Unless there's absolutely no evidence for it. Have fun if it interests you, but be nice. hg. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 05:35:33 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 05:35:33 -0000 Subject: Crying wolf? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82248 Thank you to Salit (#82121) and Sandy (#82109) for their posts. I was starting to think I had totally missed something and was getting so confused by all the arguments about Lupin being in on a strange plot to do ? what? This after reading all 40+ messages in the various "Crying Wolf?" threads. I do agree in general with the argument that Dumbledore is exceptionally devious, and believe that he has various plots/plans in action. Pip!Squeak's post on "The Spying Game and the Shrieking Shack" (#39662) is a good example of a logical interpretation of the facts we have seen from a different point of view. However, "Crying Wolf" isn't logical. The facts seem to be stretched out of shape. For example, Talisman, in post 81961, wrote: >I don't think imprisoned Sirius asked for the crossword, or that he even saw the photo with Pettigrew until Fudge gave it to him (Fudge knows Sirius is innocent, so does Dumbledore and by the action in PoA Snape and Lupin do, too.) Fudge knew the effect the photo would have on Sirius. He also helped Sirius escape (Sirius's account of why the dementor's didn't effect him and how he escaped doesn't hold water.) To break it up: >I don't think imprisoned Sirius asked for the crossword, Maybe, maybe not. Why would Fudge say so if Sirius didn't? OTOH, it is an unusual enough request from someone who had supposedly lost his mind that it makes sense for Fudge to comment on it. >or that he even saw the photo with Pettigrew until Fudge gave it to him Of course he didn't. It was in the paper with the crossword puzzle. But if you argue that Black didn't ask Fudge for the crossword puzzle, why would Fudge have given Black the newspaper? If Black didn't see the newspaper, he would never have seen the photo. > Fudge knows Sirius is innocent How? Because he was the first on the scene when Pettigrew blew up the street? If Pettigrew disappeared as soon as he cast the spell, then he was gone before Fudge apparated. Dumbledore doesn't seem to like Fudge so I seriously doubt he told Fudge about Pettigrew, if Dumbledore really knew. > so does Dumbledore and by the action in PoA Snape and Lupin do, too. Possibly. > Fudge knew the effect the photo would have on Sirius. How? Why? It was a photo of the Weasleys in Egypt. What was their connection to Sirius Black? There was no mention of Harry in the article and the Weasleys gave no indication in PoA that they had ever met Black. Even if (and that's a big IF) Fudge had known Pettigrew was an animagus, Scabbers would have appeared to be just a pet rat. Only someone familiar with Wormtail would have recognized him ? Black or Lupin. >He also helped Sirius escape Speculation, theory, whatever you want to call it, I don't buy it. It contradicts everything we have read about Fudge. People like him don't want crises to happen on their watch ? it makes them look bad. >Sirius's account of why the dementor's didn't effect him and how he escaped doesn't hold water. I disagree. Not only did Black know he was innocent of being a spy, he also knew that his suspicion of Lupin and misplaced trust of Pettigrew lead to the death of his best friend and that friend's wife. As he said, "That wasn't a happy thought, so the dementors couldn't suck it out of me..." (p371) Dementors thrive by sucking out happy thoughts and leaving only the negative thoughts. Black had no happy thoughts for them to take away so they had little effect on him. As to slipping away from Azkaban, in desperate situations people can do amazing things. I think knowing that a murderous traitor who had reason to harm your godson was, in fact, near that godson would make anyone feel desperate. In the interest of "truth in advertising," I like Lupin. I don't think he is a spy, but will admit that some people have put together reasonable arguments for their opinions that he is. But if "Crying Wolf?" is supposed to convince me that Lupin is ESE!Lupin, I have to say the accused is Not Guilty. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 05:42:45 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 05:42:45 -0000 Subject: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: >I think we'll find Kreachur will already have move into Malfoy >Mansion. He knows there is no one left to care for at Grimmauld >Place and I think his more loyal to the 'family' than the 'House'. Didn't Kreacher stay at the house after Mrs. Black died while Sirius was still in Azkaban? Not that he did much work considering the condition it was in... If Draco inherits, would Kreacher move to Malfoy Manor, or would he stay at Grimmauld Place as caretaker for Draco? Ravenclaw Bookworm From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 05:44:22 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 05:44:22 -0000 Subject: Neville's poor memory In-Reply-To: <007b01c38a11$6cd23b20$11570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82250 Eric Oppen wrote: > You know---I wonder whether anybody's actually examined Neville to see if there's something wrong with him. If his memory problems result from having been tortured, I'd think that the Healers at St.Mungo's could do something, and he's there a lot to visit his parents _anyway_...I wonder if any of the Healers have suggested it to his grandmother? Or would they know? hg replies: Eric, In August, RSFJenny launched the SILK GOWNS theory that included a possible explanation for Neville's memory loss -- it was my belief that there's something odd about Mungo's and that Neville, spending so much time there, is affected; and that Healer Strout, who painfully overlooks the difference between a Flitterbloom and Devil's Snare, is also affected. I condensed the bulk of the theory in post 80761. (There's still an outstanding award of 50 points to the house of the listee who gets the anagram.) Jenny has a website that lists possible culprits, reasons, explanations, canon etc, that all came from on and off board discussions w/ several interested board members: http://www.geocities.com/rsfjenny/HP/silkgowns What is notable about your post is that, if anyone had noticed Neville's horrible memory besides his grandmother, she hasn't done anything about it -- that could lend credence to my idea that something about being at St. Mungo's ward 49 affects the brain badly, probably memory-wise. Then again, it could be just a simple matter of her being such a powerhouse type that no-one questions her or pushes a matter with her, or her opinions are too strong to sway. What do you think? hg. From dwoodward at towson.edu Sat Oct 4 06:38:33 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Deirdre F Woodward) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:38:33 -0400 Subject: Kreatcher vs Dobby References: <1065228285.5675.74689.m16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001701c38a42$22c4bfe0$79092244@parkvl01.md.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 82251 Don't think this has been discussed" I think we are going to see a major battle between Kreatcher and Dobby. Why? There's only been three house elves mentioned, and Winny is drunk all the time (that's her name, right? I am a bit drunk now myself) Anyhow, Dobby and Kreatcher seem to be well suited -- house elves on the side of good and evil. I think we will see them play a larger role in books 6 and 7. Deirdre the inebriated. Don't go out with 24 year olds. They drink too much. If you would cwee the wa I alm timyp erihg tnow you wour really kno how doun I anm From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 07:04:35 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 07:04:35 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote:> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > > wrote: > > > > > The two of 'neither' could be James and Lily, the 'other', Harry. The rest of the posters were overwhelmed - by apathy! > > > If you're interested it was 'That Damn Prophecy - an alternative take.' (75081) > > >> > > Kneasy > > > Richard here ... > > I think you are both so far off the canonical reservation as to be on a wholly different story line. I don't and can't agree with your interpretation, and cannot see how you confused the English to arrive at it. > > Richard, whose English major mother is showing through. Talisman, who's own English credentials are quite intact, thank you, jumps to Kneasy's defense, just because he's so much fun. While recognizing that most of our hope in this matter lies with linguistics, I suggest we keep our corsets loose. If you've been down to the grove lately, you'll know that the sybils don't give a fig for grammar. And, if you decide to give logic a try, remember the intriguing thought processes our author used in Dobby's "hint" to Harry in CoS: * * * * "You told me all this had nothing to do with He-Who-Must-Not-Be- Named, remember? Well__" "It was a clue, sir," said Dobby, his eyes widening, as though this was obvious. "Was giving you a clue. The Dark Lord, before he changed his name, could freely be named, you see?" "Right," said Harry weakly. (339) * * * * Talisman, who thinks the Prophecy is a Chinese finger-puzzle, suggests that everyone try to relax. However you translate it, the Prophecy won't change much. In addition to being a Hero's Journey, this series is a coming of age story, i.e. 1)Harry won't really die; 2)DD and an un-voldified Tom Riddle WILL skip off to the next great adventure; and, 3)Neville will end up a professor at Hogwarts. (But--if that Wench DARES to go after Snape--I'll throw all my books at innocent passers-by.) From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 10:11:53 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 10:11:53 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com,> adsong16 wrote: > > > It seems to me that this proves that Harry is indeed destined, as the > prophecy tells us, to vanquish the Dark Lord. How he's going to do > that, who will help him, and whether or not he will survive the > encounter, remains to be seen. > > On the other hand, I also want to join the Neville Still Has Some > Part To Play In This gang. But that is another story... < > OotP pg. 829 US Hardcover Edition - "And then you saw Rookwood, who worked in the Department of Mysteries before his arrest, telling Voldemort what we had known all along - that the prophecies held in the Ministry of Magic are heavily protected. Only the people to whom they refer can lift them from the shelves without suffering madness. In this case, either Voldemort himself would have to enter the Ministry of Magic and risk revealing himself at last - or else you would have to take it for him." Once the prophesy is taken from the shelf, then anyone could handle it. Otherwise, Voldemort would still have to have been at the MoM to take the prophesy from Harry. But he sent his Death Eaters to bring it back to him. Hope that helps. D From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 02:06:49 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 02:06:49 -0000 Subject: Snape the "other" of the prophecy?? (was Re: Snape is Number One) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82254 OK smtopliff and Talisman! I /totally/ agree that the prophecy could be about Snape!!!! What a twist! I'd never thought of it till I read this line of thought in the posts!! what if that person is Severus Snape?!?! > > Talisman I think Snape makes a very good candidate for the >One-with-the-power. He certainly has the power, and I, for one, >can't wait until he is unleashed. HedwigsTalons: Especially the part of the prophecy that states "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal". I don't know, but it seems that to /mark/ someone is to do it deliberately, as the Dark Mark is done to DE's. LV did NOT deliberately mark Harry, he meant to kill Harry. BUT, I don't get the part of the prophecy about "neither can live while the other survives" Wouldn't that mean that if LV is alive, the "other" is NOT alive. Snape and Harry are BOTH alive, as is LV! Is this a semantic thing about either/neither and the word "survives"? English majors to the rescue plz!! HedwigsTalons Who likes Snape better every time she reads through the books. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Oct 4 02:16:56 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:16:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] who calls Voldie "Dark Lord"? References: Message-ID: <3F7E2D98.9090503@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82255 hedwigstalons wrote: > I'm just wondering if what people and creatures call LV in > conversation has anything to do with their allegiance? > > We've all seen that the DE's call Voldemort the "Dark Lord", right? > So, do only followers of LV call him that, or not? > > In COS Dobby calls LV the "Dark Lord" and the Prophecy bauble > says "The Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter". Who wrote that on the > sphere? The world is not in black and white... and not all evil wizards are DEs. So its unlikely that EVERYONE who refers to Volde as 'Dark Lord' is automatically evil. If Harry thinks that everyone who calls him 'Dark Lord' is a DE, then HARRY is showing his ignorance, so we, do not have to take his word as gospel... Jazmyn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Oct 4 06:54:37 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 06:54:37 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > adsong16 wrote: > > > It seems to me that this proves that Harry is indeed destined, as the > prophecy tells us, to vanquish the Dark Lord. How he's going to do > that, who will help him, and whether or not he will survive the > encounter, remains to be seen. > > On the other hand, I also want to join the Neville Still Has Some > Part To Play In This gang. But that is another story... < > > > Kneazle255: > > Reading your post it struck me that Neville touches the Prophecy in > the MoM without going crazy. The only two people to handle it are > Harry and Neville, I think. > > I am not sure if once a prophecy globe is removed from the room > anyone can then handle it or not. But Neville is the only one who > does, besides Harry. > Geoff: Pulling together some of the comments made here, I think it is clear from the book that once the prophecy has been touched by the "nominated person", it is free to be handled by anyone. Lucius obviously believes this. I think the possiblity of using the Accio spell to get the orb into a bag was not being considered; I don't recall Bellatrix having a shopping bag in her hand when she attempts to do this early in the battle and Harry uses a Protego charm to stop her. I also feel that someone was being unfair to Neville in their comments about the battle. Realistically, Harry and Neville were the only two from the group to come through still on their feet and fighting. Neville's use of spells was obviously being affected by his speaking problems after Dolohov broke his nose but I believe he came through with honours. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Oct 4 11:58:23 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:58:23 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > > Kneazle: > > In the Dept of Mysteries the prophecy is labelled "Voldemort and > Harry Potter(?)" It may not refer to Harry at all, but that doesn't > make it wrong. DD seems convinced the prophecy refers to Harry, but > DD has been wrong before. Or DD could be lying. > > I wonder if someone (Kneasy? Talisman?) has considered the truly > horror-inspiring possibility that Dumbledore has been using HP as a > decoy for sixteen years to protect Neville Longbottom. > > I think I just gave myself nightmares. Of course I have! I'd be a pretty poor conspiracy theorist if I hadn't. Right, settle down; this could call for a bit of mental nimbleness on both sides of the screen; it could turn out to be a long one, too. I know it's slightly infra dig to refer to your own posts, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to - no alternative, unfortunately. Very few seem to share my Machiavellian turn of mind coupled with a suspicion of just what JKR is capable of. (But keep your eye on Talisman!) Firstly DD and 'Neville may be the one". I first started posting in June, just before OoP arrived. Being a comparative newbie, I was shy and tentative for my first posts, (oh, yes I was!) and so to avoid the scorn and disgust of the establishment I posted my thoughts as an amusing (I hope) piece - FLOOZY No.I - The Dumbledore Papers, (65696). This points out that if DDs function is to look after and protect Harry, then he's made a bloody poor job of it. The conclusion of the piece wonders if Harry hasn't been set up as a decoy. (It didn't go down well with those that equated DD with Gandalf, which was part of it's function; he's *not* Gandalf.) I'm not so certain now, but it is still a possibility that cannot be totally discarded. (Poppy Promfrey going on about mental wounds being worse than physical ones makes me wonder.) Next, the prophecy; I had a bash at interpretation with post 75035. That's already been resurrected over the past few days. If I'm right (collective mutter; "Big if, mate"), then significant implications can be drawn that fill some gaps noticed by other posters. More below. In post 79180 (Prophets without honour), I burble on about Trelawney, prophecies, The Dept of Mysteries and why prophecies are stored, plus a few extraneous things (Nostradamus, for one). To precis the whole thing: 1. A prophecy can only be considered accurate *after the events it foretells have happened*. 2.Even then it may depend on the interpretation or imagination of the reader or viewer (this is where old Nosty came in). 3.The prophecy storage at DoM may be a sort of Quality Assurance programme; store and protect so that no-one can read or interfere with them until events involving the named persons actually happen. Then check events against prophecy. Grade the seer for reliability by their track record. 4.Anyone who reports a possible prophecy must take care not to perform any action that may affect the course of events the prophecy deals with. Foreknowledge by too many people may influence events as they may act as if the 'prophecy' *must* happen. 5.This is Dumbledore's situation and dilemma. If in fact my reading of the prophecy is right and DD understood it, then he knew, or at least suspected that the Potters (or the Long- bottoms) would die. Before the event. And he could do nothing about it. To do anything could invalidate the prophecy and prevent the appearance of "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." (post 75081) I've mentioned in passing in a number of posts that DD allowed Lily to die, but got no response. (That Kneasy. He's paranoid!) Maybe, but it's fun having an active imagination and a suspicious mind. What would be Harry's reaction when this sinks in? That DD may have been able to prevent his parents deaths and didn't? Plot line par excellance for the next book! Maybe it's a bit too convoluted for everyone's tastes. No, I don't expect everyone to accept it as a front runner in the interpretation stakes. But Kneazle asked a question of me that had been answered long since. Posters often forget what's been said before; there have been so many posts after all. We can't remember them all. What else that we are trying to understand has already been answered in some past post? It's a depressing thought that we may be re-inventing the wheel every few months when we don't need to. Kneasy From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 11:22:38 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:22:38 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82258 Donna writes: OotP pg. 829 US Hardcover Edition - "And then you saw Rookwood, who worked in the Department of Mysteries before his arrest, telling Voldemort what we had known all along - that the prophecies held in the Ministry of Magic are heavily protected. Only the people to whom they refer can lift them from the shelves without suffering madness. In this case, either Voldemort himself would have to enter the Ministry of Magic and risk revealing himself at last - or else you would have to take it for him." Once the prophesy is taken from the shelf, then anyone could handle it. Otherwise, Voldemort would still have to have been at the MoM to take the prophesy from Harry. But he sent his Death Eaters to bring it back to him. Melody writes: All Malfoy told Harry is "only people who are permitted to retrieve a prophecy from the Dept of Mysteries, Potter, are those about whom it was made..." (OoP, Ch 35). Harry passed the prophecy to Neville, which is the same transaction Malfoy was attempting. Kneazle writes: I know. But on the other hand, we don't know if there are other protections on those globes. We don't know because no one else touches it. We don't know what Voldemort told the bulk of the deatheaters regarding the prophecy or the impact of holding the globe. Voldemort might not care if a deatheater goes nuts. Does Rookwood ever ask for it? I know he knows. I know he told Voldemort. I don't know what Voldemort told the other Deatheaters. But stepping back from all that for a minute, JKR is a bit cagey with Neville in the MoM. The bit where Neville takes the prophecy is sort of indirect. And then there's the whole humorous aspect of Neville's broken nose. It just smells like she's trying to divert us from something really important. Neville, the only other possible candidate for the prophecy born at the right time in 1980, is the only other person to hold the prophecy almost 16 years later? And the MoM has the globe labelled 'Harry Potter(?)' DD assumes that it applies just to Harry. So did I. The Ministry does not. The coincidence, if that's what it is, coupled with JKR's indirection, is a bit much for me to dismiss out of hand. From dfran at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 4 07:51:52 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 07:51:52 -0000 Subject: Snape is Number One (was My two cents re:the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smtopliff" > wrote:smtopliff said: > > My take on the Prophecy in OOP has been different than other posts I > have seen what if that person is Severus Snape?!?! > > Talisman, twining bat-shaped love knots in her hair, replies: > > I actually have a section of notes on this, which I can't find > (because I've got heaps and files of notes, including scribbles on > the backs of envelops, legal pads, grid paper, drawing pads and the > backs of old posts.) Someday I'll get them all sorted out, and if I > come across the notes and see I've missed something, I'll send it > along. > > I don't place much import in the prophecy, no matter who is meant. > But there is as much (or more) evidence to support a Snape > interpretation as any other. You have to in order for you to have faith in Snape being "the one" don't you?!? > > What I recall of my Snape considerations follows: > > I think Snape makes a very good candidate for the One-with-the- > power. He certainly has the power, and I, for one, can't wait until > he is unleashed. (Talisman pauses for a moment to regain control of > herself) The only way Snape will be all powerful would be, in my opinion, to not carry grudges and have so much unfounded anger towards characters in the book. (besides Neville and Potter) > > I agree with you that "born" in the prophecy's context doesn't > require issuance from a mother's body, but I don't think we need to > add the extra "e" (for borne) either. I agree, Snape may well have been "born again" (as in a "born again Christian"). Perhaps this is one of the major reasons DD "took him "back into the fold" again. The fact that Snape is not ever happy with DD's new assignments to the DADA position yet when Hogwarts is forced to have a MOM administrator he is no more and he (snape) is no less angry at the new appointment(feeling hate and discontent)--seems more aggravated at the whole situation. (leads me to wonder if Snape may have had a role to prevent the entire HP tribulation to begin with). Am I the only one who thinks that by book seven Snape may actually be the DADA professor?(seems to me that Harry has been learning so exponentially that DD will only allow this to happen when Snape can no longer harm Harry's learning experience. Snape failed too horribly at occlumency in OOP....I tend to believe that this will lead to 1. Snape teaching DADA in book six....OR 2. in book seven all dreams are realized and he finally gets his chance...) > > The prophesy reiterates the born business: "born as the seventh > month dies" and then (seemingly redundant, but perhaps to > underscore the importance of the phrasing?) "will be born as the > seventh month dies.." > > Both times we have the same born/dies comparison. > > Of course, months don't literally "die." This is trope. Therefore, > a symmetrical analysis of the sentence directs us to use the > word "born" figuratively as well. > > To be figuratively born is to undergo a major life change, > especially a change of heart, as when religious converts speak of > being "born again." > > We know Snape has had a change of heart. > > Snape's switch could certainly have happened before the end of July > 1980. DD's re-vouching for Snape in the post-Godric's Hollow DE > trials suggests that it was a settled matter with DD by that time. > Snape may well have been the one who warned DD of the planned > attack, again suggesting that he had switched sides before that > time. It would also make for lovely symmetry if Snape's switch time > mirrored Wormtail's, i.e., Wormtail had been LV's spy for over a > year by Oct. 31, 1981, so if Snape had been DD's man for roughly the > same amount of time, that would make a July 1980 transformation just > perfect. Whether I love or hate Snape...I always get the picture that he is hopping back and forth...trying to play both sides for all their worth before making a final committment. Snape is like the reader to suspects and expects the worse in everyone all the time. Ron, Harry, and Hermione have a strong distrust in Snape.....all for different reasons. Their "gut reactions" Towards Snape seem to be good indicators in keeping them safe.... Snape is an occlumens...he see's this in them and modifies his behavior. Snape would be a fool if he didn't. A theory I have.....watchout for Luna Lovegoods reactions toward him...She's not afraid of much....I'm looking for a kids view that is not close to Harry(not the same house, not whom he normally attends classes with) to express their opinions of him.(watch out for Ginny who views puzzles as Luna does by the tail end of OOP) > > The people Snape is "born" to are those opposing LV. Thrice can > actually mean "greatly" or it can mean threefold, it doesn`t have to > mean three temporal incidents. The Order has greatly defied LV, and > defies him on at least three philosophical points, e.g.: they 1) are > willing to die; 2) accept Muggles/the Muggle born; and , 3) eschew > Dark Magic. Were the Weasley's aware of this?!? Many families defied Lord-V thrice by this time. How aware was Molly when she offered help to HP to get to platform nine and three-quarters? I don't seem to remember her noticing his scar... Harry has too many numerous encounters with the Weasleys that we cannot quite pinpoint....did they not have children to avoid another prophecy, only to see what happens in the end? > > Of course Snape bears LV's Dark Mark, but LV will also become aware > of the fact that Snape has powers at least equal to his own. We > already know that Snape can best LV at mind powers: Snape is a > greater Occlumens than LV is a Legilimens. The great question to this is did LV name snape in the graveyard scene in GOF?!?!?! did Harry actually remember ALL of the DE's circle? Was Snapes attention to antidotes not because Harry couldn't DIE of poisoning but because he coudl be "out of it" (note pain in the spiderbite throughout the graveyard/resurrection scene). > > (N.B. again, Those who really believe Snape is driven by his teenage > grudges would do well to reflect on the kind of emotional control > required to be so great an Occlumens.) > > I expect Snape to show us quite a display of unsuspected powers, and > not just vampy ones, either. Key word here is emotions...Snape seems only to be at his greatest in these powers around someone he hates/strongly dislikes--thus the "worse memory scene" he did not hate James..just wanted to be like Wormtail.....in the fold/clique/group etc... Hence Harry laying on the floor all too often after lessons.(each and everyone) As for DD assigning Snape...DD's mistake...DD IMHO thinks that Snape didn't really "teach" Harry because of Serius. > > Snape being the One would also explain why Snape, who has never lied > to Harry before, is still telling the truth when he says that > nothing in the DoM pertains to Harry. (OoP 538 ) > Of course it doesn't DD knows the prophecy already, so Harry can get it from "he who favors HP too much already"...(get the picture that Snape broke rules at Hogwarts and suffered greatly?!?!?) > Smt continued: > > AND, Snape was brought to them by (who else?) Dorcas Meadowes, > the one that Voldemort personally offed . I think Snape would have gone eventually anyhow---there's marriage--- and then there's BABY and marriage....(was/were there other prophecies?!?! definitely so..who knows them all...probably prof. Treawley...this is why Hermione left the class..to give Harry a different perspective. (and Ron with his ridiculous predictions)...JKR is telling us yes predictions and tea leaf readings and crystal ball gazings mean something...but they don't mean EVERYTHING! > > Talisman: > I think you do well to notice the significance of LV personally > killing Dorcas (esp. since JKR makes the point of telling us how not > everyone is "important enough" to warrant personal dispatch ). I > don't see any further evidence linking her to the Snape conversion, > but I haven't really looked at this angle. Whatever her role, she's > worth keeping in mind while we re-read. Dorcas makes sense...LV will go after family, friends, acquaintences, etc... Even if wormtail was highly loyal to the Potters...he would never be strong against LV's occlumens and whatever else...Was Lily's friendship with Dorcas REAL...or did the friendship Dorcas offered something different? This is also a forshadowing IMHO of Hermione being in grave danger of associating with Harry and probably LV's next target. > > Talisman, for whom Snape will always be The One, no matter what JKR > thinks. Snape can only be the one if he sacrifices himself. Only then will he experience a true emotion in its fullest. Either this, or he will be destroyed.... These are just a few of my ponderings.. DeeDee From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 12:30:49 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 12:30:49 -0000 Subject: old posts, new light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82260 wrote: > > I wonder if someone (Kneasy? Talisman?) has considered the truly horror-inspiring possibility that Dumbledore has been using HP as a decoy for sixteen years to protect Neville Longbottom. Kneasy replies (snipped): Of course I have! I'd be a pretty poor conspiracy theorist if I hadn't. I know it's slightly infra dig to refer to your own posts, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to - no alternative, unfortunately. Very few seem to share my Machiavellian turn of mind coupled with a suspicion of just what JKR is capable of. (But keep your eye on Talisman!) (Kneasy refers the curious reader to his own posts, nothing wrong with that in hg's opinion: 65696, 75035, 79180, 75081) > To precis the whole thing: > 1. A prophecy can only be considered accurate *after the events it > foretells have happened*. > > 2.Even then it may depend on the interpretation or imagination of > the reader or viewer (this is where old Nosty came in). > > 3.The prophecy storage at DoM may be a sort of Quality Assurance > programme; store and protect so that no-one can read or interfere > with them until events involving the named persons actually > happen. Then check events against prophecy. Grade the seer for > reliability by their track record. > > 4.Anyone who reports a possible prophecy must take care not to > perform any action that may affect the course of events the > prophecy deals with. Foreknowledge by too many people may > influence events as they may act as if the 'prophecy' *must* happen. > > 5.This is Dumbledore's situation and dilemma. > > If in fact my reading of the prophecy is right and DD understood it, then he knew, or at least suspected that the Potters (or the Long- > bottoms) would die. Before the event. And he could do nothing > about it. To do anything could invalidate the prophecy and prevent > the appearance of "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." > What would be Harry's reaction when this sinks in? That DD may > have been able to prevent his parents deaths and didn't? > Plot line par excellance for the next book! > > Maybe it's a bit too convoluted for everyone's tastes. > No, I don't expect everyone to accept it as a front runner in the > interpretation stakes. But Kneazle asked a question of me that had been answered long since. Posters often forget what's been said before; there have been so many posts after all. We can't remember them all. hg replies: No problems here with you referring readers to your previous posts; on the contrary, sometimes these a-ha moments happen for some later in the game than for others; maybe those some were a-ha-ing about one thing while you were a-ha-ing about Dumbledore, Lily, prophecy, etc. And I should add, Kneazle is new to the board. (Actually, I myself have referred readers to your 75035, but being there are so many of us here, that has slipped through the cracks.) So referring readers back may avoid some unnecessary reinventing, to use your terminology. While your conspiracy theorising can be off-putting to some, it always sheds new light on old territory, and I don't think anyone on the board reads your posts without laughing or scratching his or her at least once (I recall reading "Sexpot Thunderthighs" myself and laughing out loud, the only time a post has ellicited that response from me). I'd take it as a cap off to you that Kneazle has wondered what you thought about his ideas. And now, onto those posts listed above, to have a conversation that meets Kneasy where he is in this thought process. hg. From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sat Oct 4 13:07:40 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 13:07:40 -0000 Subject: Significance of Harry's blood in Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82261 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" > wrote: > > Jeff: > > > > Intresting idea. In my mind I think that Harry and Voldie are > > related by blood or marriage somehow. I know in COS Tom shows no > hint > > of this, but with the WW being rather inbred, I just think that the > > connection between Harry and Tom is somehow more than the transfer > of > > some powers. I'm sure I'm wrong, but it's just a feeling I get. > > > > > > > > > > Jeff > > I'm with you, Jeff. But, if you remember, and I don't have the book > in front of me to give you the direct canon, but he did say to Harry > that they even look somewhat alike. That little point has been stuck > in my brain ever since I read the book the first time. > > Besides, if a spell backfiring caused the transfer of powers, then > the battle in the DoM would have reprecussions for all those > involved. Yet we see no transfer there. > > Also, there has to be some kind of affinity between LV and Harry if > their wands are "brothers". I suspect JKR has a really big surprise > in store for us. > > D Jeff: Yes, that's true. I don't have the books handy either. If I leave the room to get them, I'll forget what I was looking for and end up sitting there reading the darn thing. ;) I agree. I think there has to be more to it than a simple tranfer of powers. The twin wands, the same powers, Harry being able to see what Voldie sees/feels, his anger that is increasing and the attitude change. Me thinks there's something rotten in York and it tain't the pudding. :) I've stated a few times to others that I fear that Harry must die to end the reign of terror this time, least he become the next author of it. Jeff From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Sat Oct 4 11:39:17 2003 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:39:17 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] who calls Voldie "Dark Lord"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82262 hedwigstalons wrote: > I'm just wondering if what people and creatures call LV in > conversation has anything to do with their allegiance? Cornelius Fudge changes the way he calls Lord Voldemort when Albus Dumbledore says Voldemort is back. You-Know-Who -----> Dark Lord From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 14:03:32 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:03:32 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > Donna writes: > > OotP pg. 829 US Hardcover Edition - > > "And then you saw Rookwood, who worked in the Department of > Mysteries before his arrest, telling Voldemort what we had known all > along - that the prophecies held in the Ministry of Magic are heavily > protected. Only the people to whom they refer can lift them from the > shelves without suffering madness. In this case, either Voldemort > himself would have to enter the Ministry of Magic and risk revealing > himself at last - or else you would have to take it for him." > > Once the prophesy is taken from the shelf, then anyone could handle > it. Otherwise, Voldemort would still have to have been at the MoM to > take the prophesy from Harry. But he sent his Death Eaters to bring > it back to him. > > Kneazle writes: > > I know. But on the other hand, we don't know if there are other > protections on those globes. We don't know because no one else > touches it. > > We don't know what Voldemort told the bulk of the deatheaters regarding the > prophecy or the impact of holding the globe. Voldemort might not care if a > deatheater goes nuts. Does Rookwood ever ask for it? I know he knows. > I know he told Voldemort. I don't know what Voldemort told the other > Deatheaters. > > But stepping back from all that for a minute, JKR is a bit cagey with > Neville in the MoM. The bit where Neville takes the prophecy is sort > of indirect. And then there's the whole humorous aspect of Neville's > broken nose. It just smells like she's trying to divert us from > something really important. > > Neville, the only other possible candidate for the prophecy born at > the right time in 1980, is the only other person to hold the prophecy > almost 16 years later? > > And the MoM has the globe labelled 'Harry Potter(?)' DD assumes that > it applies just to Harry. So did I. The Ministry does not. > > The coincidence, if that's what it is, coupled with JKR's > indirection, is a bit much for me to dismiss out of hand. But, Kneazle, don't you think if the MoM thought the prophesy applied to Neville also, they would have labeled it Harry Potter (?), Neville Longbottom (?) It seems to me the MoM is very literal in how they label the prophesies. If they didn't get so specific, then how could they let a person whom the prophesy applied to retrieve the one meant for them? I don't agree that LV wouldn't care if one of his DE's went insane trying to get the prophesy. If that were true, then he would have just sent another DE to retrieve it without the subterfuge of capturing Sirius to lure Harry there. But I do agree there is more to Neville than meets the eye. He, along with the other students in the DA, will be quite important in one of the next two books. Why do I think that? Well, JKR has already introduced us to things in the early stories that played out in later books. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I do love to read what y'all think. My mind does not tend to want to delve too deeply into the motives behind many of the characters. I like to take JKR at her word, albeit with a grain of salt. I like to be pleasantly (or in some cases, not so pleasantly, in the case of Sirius' death) surprised. Later, after all is said and done, I suspect I shall read through the entire series of stories and then do my analysis. D From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 14:16:52 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:16:52 -0000 Subject: Significance of Harry's blood in Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: > Jeff: > > Yes, that's true. I don't have the books handy either. If I leave > the room to get them, I'll forget what I was looking for and end up > sitting there reading the darn thing. ;) > I agree. I think there has to be more to it than a simple tranfer > of powers. The twin wands, the same powers, Harry being able to see > what Voldie sees/feels, his anger that is increasing and the attitude > change. Me thinks there's something rotten in York and it tain't the > pudding. :) I've stated a few times to others that I fear that Harry > must die to end the reign of terror this time, least he become the > next author of it. > > > > Jeff Ah, but you have to remember, I am a true believer in happy endings. I would so hate it if Harry dies. It would be a tremendous let down for me. I don't think that JKR has that in store for us. She will probably have other characters that are dear to me die. She has said that she wants children to see that there are pointless deaths, and that is the reality of life. But to have Harry die? Then that negates the prophesy (did I say that? Am I opening a whole 'nother can of worms?). For it says that one of them will survive. Now there's that pesky word "vanquish". Does it necessarily mean that LV will die? I believe so. Most epic fantasy novels with a "Dark Lord" have that character die in the end. Harry must be the one to do it. Whether it is done with "malace aforethought" or as the result of something inadvertantly done by Harry, remains to be seen. At this point in the story, Harry is still a child. He is seeing things pretty much as black and white. He will either be victim or murderer. I don't think he understands the subtlety behind the prophesy, yet. And because he is so introspective, at this point in the story, this is not something he will share with Ron and Hermione yet. As our story has unfolded so far, in the beginning, he pretty much shared whatever he found out with R & H. As the story moved along, he began to withhold things. I do hope book 7 will wrap up all those loose ends and we will see a satisfactory conclusion. D - who realizes that she has suddenly become long winded, when she is basically a shy person. From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 13:27:58 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 13:27:58 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82265 Kneasy wrote: What else that we are trying to understand has already been answered in some past post? It's a depressing thought that we may be re-inventing the wheel every few months when we don't need to. Kneazle responds: Apologies, Kneasy, for missing some of the conslusions in your posts. But I don't think I am simply retreading old ground. I hope I am tilting at another windmill altogether. I think my charger may have crossed some familiar ground on the way, however. My windmill may involve a theory you have discounted, but I am not so sure the the windmill isn't still turning. To summarize where I am now--I am not convinced that Neville has been entirely excluded from fulfilling the prophecy. There are four criteria to be the 'other' in the prophecy: 1. Boy born in the 7th month 2. Parents who have thrice defied the Dark Lord 3. Have a power the dark lord knows not 4. Acknowledged as the Dark Lord's equal Neville: 1. Born in the 7th month (YES) 2. Parent who have thrice defied the Dark Lord (YES) 3. Have a power the dark lord know not (YES. Faith love, loyalty, etc. See my post 82241) 4. Acknowledged as the Dark Lord's equal (I think this is a low hurdle. See my #82240) In the MoM scene in OoTP, I see JKR either: --providing direct evidence of this by having Neville touch a prophecy that should have driven him crazy. (Less possible because of the canon several people have referenced.) OR -- foreshadowing and simulataneously being indirect about Neville's importance to the meta-plot. (Very likely, at least to me.) Kneazle, who's maybe been chasing mice Kneasy has already caught once before. Admin Team Note: For any who wonder, "covering old ground" is quite acceptable on this list, although we do ask that members try make sure that they are not covering something discussed very recently. Please see our ADMIN on the subject for more details: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79639 From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Oct 4 14:38:04 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 14:38:04 -0000 Subject: old posts, new light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > > hg replies: > No problems here with you referring readers to your previous posts; > on the contrary, sometimes these a-ha moments happen for some later > in the game than for others; maybe those some were a-ha-ing about one > thing while you were a-ha-ing about Dumbledore, Lily, prophecy, etc. > And I should add, Kneazle is new to the board. (Actually, I myself > have referred readers to your 75035, but being there are so many of > us here, that has slipped through the cracks.) So referring readers > back may avoid some unnecessary reinventing, to use your terminology. > Thanks for the kind words. Since I posted, I've been thinking (oh, yes!) and I've had an idea that is bound to annoy the List Elves. Why not set up our own Prophecy Bank for listers? If a poster comes up with a significant new theory or a new slant on an old one that they are particularly proud of, they can request that it be numbered and logged. A bit like the acronyms are at the moment. Or perhaps give it a prefix as we do for TBAY. Posters can check the list to see what theories have already been made on any particular aspect of the books and could use them as a starting point for their own new theories or check to see if the ground has been covered before and to what depth. In addition, when the truth finally emerges, we'll have the tremendously satisfying proof of just what a load of old rubbish has been put up for consideration in past posts. Ah! The humiliation! I didn't say that, did I? Oh, yes you did! This really appeals to my sadistic instincts and since I'm an inveterate theoriser myself, I'll probably get my fair share (or more) of brickbats when the tale reaches its conclusion. How about it Elves? Is this possible? I see difficulties with theories already posted, but if we can get round that.... Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Oct 4 15:37:40 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:37:40 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > > Kneazle responds: > > Apologies, Kneasy, for missing some of the conslusions in your posts. > But I don't think I am simply retreading old ground. I hope I am > tilting at another windmill altogether. Kneasy: Apologies not necessary. Please don't think I was having a go at you; it was at a much more generalised moan at a failing that we're all guilty of. > >Kneazle> > To summarize where I am now--I am not convinced that Neville has been > entirely excluded from fulfilling the prophecy. > > There are four criteria to be the 'other' in the prophecy: > > 1. Boy born in the 7th month > 2. Parents who have thrice defied the Dark Lord > 3. Have a power the dark lord knows not > 4. Acknowledged as the Dark Lord's equal > > Neville: > > 1. Born in the 7th month (YES) > 2. Parent who have thrice defied the Dark Lord (YES) > 3. Have a power the dark lord know not (YES. Faith love, loyalty, > etc. See my post 82241) > 4. Acknowledged as the Dark Lord's equal (I think this is a low > hurdle. See my #82240) > Kneasy: I agree that Neville can't be ruled out entirely, but you've raised points that have been the causes of intense discussions before; and not just from my posts. They also apply to Neville. What proof is there that Harry is Voldys equal? Very little. When we look at his escapades so far he seems to fall over Voldy before he realises what's happening. Additionally, his escapes seem to rely on factors outside his control. Quirrell crumbling; Fawkes and a fangfully lucky guess in CoS; conflicting wands in GoF; Dumbledore on OoP. None of it is intentional; none of it is Harry exercising magical power by choice. What he is is bloody lucky. If he were Voldy's equal, it would have been evident in the final showdown in the Ministry. But until DD came along, Voldy was wiping the floor with him. A few more minutes and we'd have had Dead!Harry. The future may be different, but just at the moment he cannot be considered Voldys equal. The power the Dark Lord knows not. This really is a can of worms. Lots of posters will tell you they know exactly what this power is; it's love or friendship or self sacrifice or steadfastness or, or... We're all guessing on that one. Me, I haven't the slightest idea; I know what I hope it isn't, because I would hate to end the series drowning in romanticised slush. But that's not up to me, it's JKRs call. I have a feeling, maybe more of a hope, that this power may not be such an obvious charateristic as many think. Therefore, I'm sceptical about theories that rely on an unknown. Kneazle: > In the MoM scene in OoTP, I see JKR either: > > --providing direct evidence of this by having Neville touch a > prophecy that should have driven him crazy. (Less possible because of > the canon several people have referenced.) > OR > -- foreshadowing and simulataneously being indirect about Neville's > importance to the meta-plot. (Very likely, at least to me.) > Kneasy: You may be right, but I read it a different way. I don't think the MoM scene was about prophecies; yes, there was an indication that Neville is about to find his feet; but mostly I think it was about Harry and Sirius. About loss and it's effect. With the added frisson that Sirius may have been zapped by his own side. Plus a chance for Dumbledore to put on his caring face, beat his breast, cry "Mea culpa!" and give an exposition and justification of his actions to date. The effect that this has on Harry is the key to the next book, if my hunches are accurate. Oh, there'll have been clues in there that I've missed, but you have to go with your own reading of it, don't you? From editor at texas.net Sat Oct 4 16:38:51 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:38:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: old posts, new light References: Message-ID: <001d01c38a95$feeb4ea0$ee5aaacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 82268 Kneasy: > Since I posted, I've been thinking (oh, yes!) and I've had an idea that is > bound to annoy the List Elves. Why? For God's sake, we're not some sort of power-mad goon squad. We like to play on the list as much as anyone. > How about it Elves? Is this possible? I see difficulties with theories > already posted, but if we can get round that.... Something of the sort was done with the polls that were set up just before OoP came out...figure out what you want to do and how, and email the -owners address so the admin team can discuss it with you offlist. ~Amandageist From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 16:43:40 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 16:43:40 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82269 Laura: Now, Kneasy, no one wants you to feel unappreciated. *smiles* I just want you to know that between the "crying wolf" thread and this prophecy business, I've had several rather restless nights. I went back and reread the Shrieking Shack scene (again-I think I've reread this one more than any other scene in canon) and the prophecy discussion in OoP (which made me read to the end of the book, which made me cry again...sigh). A few thoughts and reactions: Kneasy: > > Firstly DD and 'Neville may be the one". > ...if DDs function is to look after and protect > Harry, then he's made a bloody poor job of it. The conclusion > of the piece [a previous post]wonders if Harry hasn't been set up as a decoy. I'm not so certain now, but it is still a possibility that cannot be totally discarded. (Poppy Pomfrey going on about mental wounds being worse than physical ones makes me wonder.) > Laura: I agree that Neville has a major part to play in the upcoming books. And it's very hard to deny that DD has a Plan. But I don't think it's using Harry as a decoy, unless he's trying to do a double switch in which he'd throw a lot of attention onto Harry, hoping that LV would be suspicious and decide it was someone else, when really it was Harry all the time. But if so, it hasn't worked. Maybe LV is just suffering from a bad case of cognitive dissonance. He's decided that it's Harry and that's the way it's going to be- don't confuse him with the facts. > Next, the prophecy > 1. A prophecy can only be considered accurate *after the events it > foretells have happened*. Laura: Which makes me wonder what good the blasted things are in the first place. At no time and under no circumstances does learning a prophecy help anyone-it's either too early or too late (as Kneasy points out below). Kneasy: > > 2.Even then it may depend on the interpretation or imagination of > the reader or viewer (this is where old Nosty came in). > Laura: That's for sure. We can't even agree on the correct reading of a prophecy that seems pretty straightforward to me (once you do a little sentence diagramming). Kneasy: > 3.The prophecy storage at DoM may be a sort of Quality Assurance > programme; store and protect so that no-one can read or interfere > with them until events involving the named persons actually > happen. Then check events against prophecy. Grade the seer for > reliability by their track record. Laura: Probably, but then what? They're invalidated if they're heard beforehand and they are useless after the fact. Talk about a meaningless job...being a Seer must be a big drag. No wonder the centaurs are so cranky. > Kneasy: > 4.Anyone who reports a possible prophecy must take care not to > perform any action that may affect the course of events the > prophecy deals with. Foreknowledge by too many people may > influence events as they may act as if the 'prophecy' *must* happen. Laura: And that's why this particular prophecy has been tainted almost from the moment it was uttered. Once LV heard any part of it, his actions would influence the remainder. We know that the original prophecy could have referred to one of two children. If LV had been smart (apparently his spy neglected to tell him at the time that s/he was passing along incomplete information-or else LV is not as smart as he thinks he is) he would have bided his time in scenic Albania and waited to see how the 2 kids grew up. But LV panicked and marked Harry, thus putting Neville out of the running. And having marked Harry, LV had no choice but to try to kill him. This isn't prophecy, it's a logical result of his choosing to mark someone. After PS/SS, and definitely after CoS, it should have been completely obvious to anyone in the WW who cared to notice that LV was back and after Harry. Subtlety is not LV's best thing. The prophecy has now done all the damage it can do. Whether or not Lv knows that, DD certainly should. The whole business in OoP about keeping the wretched thing secret was a huge waste of time-and of Sirius's life. > Kneasy: > 5.This is Dumbledore's situation and dilemma. > > If in fact my reading of the prophecy is right and DD understood it,then he knew, or at least suspected that the Potters (or the Long- > bottoms) would die. Before the event. And he could do nothing > about it. To do anything could invalidate the prophecy and prevent > the appearance of "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." (post 75081) > > I've mentioned in passing in a number of posts that DD allowed Lily to die, but got no response. (That Kneasy. He's paranoid!) Maybe, but it's fun having an active imagination and a suspicious mind. What would be Harry's reaction when this sinks in? That DD may > have been able to prevent his parents deaths and didn't? > Plot line par excellance for the next book! Laura: How would DD be able to conclude that the parents of the child in question must die? Most people on this list agree that the power LV knows not is love. But it's a leap from that to deducing that someone has to die for that power to activate. What happened with Harry, Lily and LV was without precedence in the WW, so why would DD come to that conclusion? I've already rejected your reading of the "neither...either" phrase for what I think are logical reasons. (Nothing personal, old boy). JKR may love plot twists, but we haven't seen her twist grammatical rules of the English language. And don't worry-Harry still has lots of legitimate reasons to be very, very angry with DD. Lily's death was not DD's fault. I'm also wondering if James's death had any protective power for Harry. After all, James also died protecting his child, as well as his wife. But I still don't agree that LV's reaction to the prophecy (or the part he knew) would lead him to kill Lily and James. If LV had thought about it for a minute, he might have realized that Harry would be better protected as a baby than he would be later at school, just because that's the way parenting works. He couldn't have taken DD's involvement into account because he didn't know about it, except in a general way (DD wanted to keep all the people in the Order alive, that is.) In fact, if LV had known how the power that would protect Harry would come to him, LV might have gone to great lengths to keep Lily and James alive, just to prevent Harry from receiving that ancient magical power. As for referencing prior posts, I for one always appreciate it when someone does that. There are just too many to keep up with, and if you miss a day or more, the volume of posts you haven't read can be rather overwhelming. I suspect that a certain amount of repetition and rehashing is inevitable with a group this size; new people join regularly and go through the same thought processes the rest of us did when we started up. We who have been here a little while can always skip the threads we think we've covered adequately. Now, about that Shrieking Shack scene... From HjamieP at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 16:56:33 2003 From: HjamieP at hotmail.com (Jamie Potter) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 16:56:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Foreign DADA Teacher? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82270 >From: "entropymail" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Foreign DADA Teacher? >Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 12:49:36 -0000 > >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > > > > > aussie: > > > > > > ...edited... who can DD spare and trust to be the new Defence > > > Against Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts? > > > > > > JOB OPENNING: > > > One option, (and this will somewhat pacify kids that are calling for > > > non-Britts to be in the movie) is to import a witch or wizard from > > > away from all the DE influence - from outside of Europe. > >Personally, I'd like to see someone imported into the DADA position >from Salem, Mass. JKR might be able to have a bit of fun with the >fact that, though witches were persecuted and burned centuries ago, >sophisticated modern Muggles know *better* now -- witches don't really >exist! > >Of course, immigrants to the US at that time (witches and wizards >included) were by and large from Western Europe (English >pilgrims/French huguenots), so our new American DADA teacher could >even be a distant relative; have a bit of a Malfoy/Black/Potter pedigree! > >:: Entropy :: > Sue: Oooh, ooh, I know. I want an Aussie DADA teacher too. (different post I know, but I didnt think of it until it was too late) Can you imagine Hugh Jackman (Xmen's wolverine) being the new DADA. He'd have a few tricks up his sleeve. Would be another of DD's *unusual* appointments. Sue _________________________________________________________________ Get less junk mail with ninemsn Premium. Click here http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp From andie at knownet.net Sat Oct 4 17:25:46 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 17:25:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Knowledge of House Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82271 This is a trivial observation, but Sirius was under the impression that house elves were bound to their masters' houses. Harry informs him that in fact they were not, and that they could leave if they wanted to since Dobby did visit Harry at Privet Drive. In CoS, Lucius Malfoy visits Hogwarts to talk with Dumbledore and Dobby is actually with him. I realize this was necessary for the "freeing of Dobby" scene. However, Malfoy obviously is aware that house elves can certainly leave their houses. Why then is Sirius not aware of this fact? Is it because he was away from Grimmauld Place for so long and hadn't actually been surrounded by a house elf for many years? Or is Sirius under the impression that house elves cannot leave unless accompanied by their masters? This would explain the CoS scene with Malfoy & Dobby, since Dobby was in the company of his master. What do you guys think of this? grindieloe From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 18:50:47 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:50:47 -0000 Subject: who calls Voldie "Dark Lord"? In-Reply-To: <3F7E2D98.9090503@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82272 > hedwigstalons wrote: > > I'm just wondering if what people and creatures call LV in > > conversation has anything to do with their allegiance? > > We've all seen that the DE's call Voldemort the "Dark Lord", > > right? So, do only followers of LV call him that, or not? > > > > In COS Dobby calls LV the "Dark Lord" and the Prophecy bauble > > says "The Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter". Who wrote that on the > > sphere? > Jazmyn wrote: > The world is not in black and white... and not all evil wizards are > DEs. So its unlikely that EVERYONE who refers to Volde as 'Dark > Lord' is automatically evil. If Harry thinks that everyone who > calls him 'Dark Lord' is a DE, then HARRY is showing his ignorance, > so we, do not have to take his word as gospel... Actually, considering how much discussion I'd seen /before/ OotP regarding whether calling Voldemort "Dark Lord" meant anything and if so what... my first thought upon reading Harry's question to Snape on the subject was that JKR might be picking on us a bit. Of course, I suppose the fact that the question was never answered leaves things up for debate. As does the fact that technically, unless Harry is accusing the dwarf who delivered the singing valentine, his claim to have only heard Death Eaters use the term isn't accurate.... ;) From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat Oct 4 19:08:29 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 19:08:29 -0000 Subject: who calls Voldie "Dark Lord"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82273 HedwigsTalons wrote: > I'm just wondering if what people and creatures call LV in > conversation has anything to do with their allegiance? > > We've all seen that the DE's call Voldemort the "Dark Lord", right? > So, do only followers of LV call him that, or not? > > In COS Dobby calls LV the "Dark Lord" and the Prophecy bauble > says "The Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter". Who wrote that on the > sphere? The term "Dark Lord" seems to be used in two situations. First, by his supporters, as a term of respect. I will include both Dobby and Snape in this category although I don't believe either to actually support Voldemort. Dobby, however, has spent the majority of his life in the company of the Malfoys, who most likely always refer to Voldemort with this title. Dobby's use of the term simply reflects his exposure, rather than his allegiance. I believe Snape uses the term for different reasons. Force of habit, to begin with. As a DE, he would have used the term. And now that he has switched sides, it is safer not to break the habit. If he were to begin referring to Voldemort by a different term while out of DE company, the chances of his accidentally slipping and doing so while on active spy duty would be increased, and that would be a sure way to blow his cover. The second use of this term seems to be as an intermediate between the unthinkably frightening use of "Lord Voldemort" and the colloquial use of "You-Know-Who" or "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named". Writing either of the latter two on an official prophecy would be rather uninformative; wizards nowadays may know who it refers to, but I'm sure Ministry officials noted that prophecies may last longer than memories of such references. Therefore, coupling "the Dark Lord" with the date of the prophecy is a bit more informative. -Corinth From silmariel at telefonica.net Sat Oct 4 19:11:06 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (a_silmariel) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 19:11:06 -0000 Subject: Long post on old time-turner threads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82274 Amanda: > Because I *did* promise, I have gone back and read the time-travel > posts Silmariel indicated (79045, 79099, and 79635). Commentary > follows for each. And I thank you. > 79045--A post by Laurasia. Eloquent and in my opinion, absolutely > correct and spot-on. (raises glass to Laurasia, forgets self is a > geist, pours butterbeer through self onto floor) > > 79099--Silmariel's response to Laurasia. In general, I get the > same "feeling" from Silmariel's logic as I do (no offense, Pip, Wolf, > Melody) from the Magic Dishwasher. Hey thanks, but I don't think if they are going to be offended by the comparation. > A few specific comments on 79099: > Silmariel: Why would Hermione use the tt when she has been caught? > What for? To get a class? Even if she had not been lectured, it > wouldn't be a sensible thing to do. > > Amanda: Are you kidding? When she missed a class that was on > something she is *certain* will be on the exam? A good reason to give her a lecture and convince her she can't change time, if she is able to go back in time only to assist to that class. I suppose the usual way, asking for class work to a classmate, or asking later to the teacher, is too easy for Hermione. Better convince her time is inmutable. > And if you are correct, it wouldn't matter if she'd been caught, as > soon as she went back and changed time, that future would have been > altered and the boys would no longer remember she had ever missed > Charms. And if you are correct --> it wouldn't matter. Since when admitting time can change results in time being an easy thing to change? A lot of things can go bad, and she wouldn't remember how were before. > (Laurasia:) Who cast the Patronus the first time? > > Silmariel: Snape. > > Amanda: ROFLMAO!!! Wow, I'd never seen this proposed. Seriously. I'm > sorry. There's not a shred of canon to support this. Nowhere, never > anyplace, *ever* in canon has it been even *remotely* hinted that > either Harry or James resembled Snape in the slightest. Yet the > caster of the Patronus looked so much like James that Harry believed > it *was* James. Who have we been told resembles James to an amazing > degree? Harry. Snape casts the Patronus. Snape is to the side of Harry. Snape does not need to fly or resemble anyone. Harry was blinded by dementors, so Snape could be doing the seven scarf dance and Harry would not notice. The first time there is no one by the wood, Snape just invents it, or someone plants that seed in Harry's mind, so after travelling back in time, Harry goes there, automatically changing the fact no one was there, so altering memories of Harry A from the point in the timeline where the figure can be seen, that now include someone by the wood resembling James. So: he is there pretending to be unconscious > I defy *anyone* to float unconscious while a hundred dementors approach as closely as they do *pretending* and *he did not float* > Nor is there a shred of canon to indicate that Snape even knows how > to cast the Patronus charm; there was a lively thread (before OoP, I > believe) as to the likelihood of his even being able to, given that > it requires a happy memory and Snape doesn't seem to be too gifted in > that area. So this point depens on if Snape has a good memory or not? I'm not trying to convince you if you think he hasn't. I think he has. Here you might also read Talisman responses. The point is she reasoned Harry couldn't have saved himself, in more than one post, so better look for her posts. The basic line was: if Hermione gets the advantages of accrued experience, Harry also does, in his case he has to accrue with dementorization, so someone saved him. But here every option for saving Harry applies, you don't need Snape, it's just he was there, so it seemed the obvious target for a simulated reconstruction of the first sets of events that were changed till we get PoA as is. > Amanda: I find this a bit hard to follow--but Snape does not speak to > either Harry or Hermione after the attack; they are unconscious. He > could not have fed them a lie. I'm sure a little obstacle as making that information leaked to Harry once he is awake is something DD can manage without developing a headache at the difficulty of the task. Ok, maybe a little harder than defeating Gringewald, but only a little. > Silmariel: It has to be refined, but it is a good starting point. > > Amanda: It doesn't hold water. It's not just a bad fit to canon; > canon contradicts it. We're at the same point, aren't we? So fitted to canon, the sequence of events ends being the novel itself. As in your explanation. Both are possible. > Silmariel: Because he has been lectured on what you can and can't do > in time travel, and believed explanations? > > Amanda: Harry has NOT been lectured on time-turners. Harry had never > even *heard* of time turners until about an hour and a half before > that instant. All he knows of time-turners is the hurried explanation > of Hermione. Please Amanda, don't yell to me, I'm not deaf. Ok, he has not been lectured. Hermione has been lectured and transmitted the information. Hermione has the time-turner, isn't she who decides what and what not can be done, so we get the same result, that Harry's actions are restricted by a lecture? > 78635--Talisman's highly entertaining and well-constructed refutation > of Laurasia, and another post by bboy which I didn't read. I *love* > her (her?) model with the marker and the action figures. > > Her interpretation of the flow of time--singular for those outside > observing, multiple and serial for those doing the time-jumping-- > absolutely agrees with mine. Perfect. That means now we are using the same model, only you don't allow time to change and I do. > I am intrigued by her statement that Harry had to survive the > dementor encounter, in order to exist, in order to be in place to > cast the Patronus spell. It bears weight. However, I have read more > than one science fiction story which comes down to the fact that > fooling around with time involves paradoxes, and it may be that JKR > simply didn't think this deeply about the ramifications of Harry > saving himself. ...fooling around with time involves paradoxes... don't tell me, paradoxes multiply when you allow time to change. You just can't say Sirius survived to the attack, then someone traveled back in time and did the famous second shot to effectively murder him, that implies a paradox. But you might be referring to that plot trick that involves a paradox necessary and ever present for the events to develop as they should be/have ever been. It was a fresh idea a hundred of years ago, but know? Let's face it. The it-happened-once version of story is a cake at time travel. I've also have read a lot of time-travel stories, they are so fun to nitpick. And she may have written something that apears to be easy and hides complexity. She uses to do that. Neville's character, for example. I like logic exercises of how to explain a time novel with different sets of axioms, and it happens that with PoA it can be done, till know. We still have two novels to go. I'll stop here, I don't have more time, just to say I consider they idead of bringing Sirius back with a tt isn't practicable even in you include changes. silmariel From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 19:25:10 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 19:25:10 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Knowledge of House Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82275 grindieloe wrote: > This is a trivial observation, but Sirius was under the impression > that house elves were bound to their masters' houses. What > do you guys think of this? > > grindieloe I think that it's less a case of needing to be "accompanied by their masters" and more a case of needing to be cued somehow; when Sirius yelled, "Get out," at Kreacher, the elf took it as a command, or at least permission. I can easily imagine, as often as Dobby said he needed disciplining, Lucius saying something similarly contemptuous of him now and then ("Get out of/remove yourself from my sight." and thereby giving him "leave" to go off and chat with Harry. I *still* want to know (I posted this before, I think, and it sank without a trace) how Winky and Dobby got to know each other prior to the World Cup scene where Harry encounters Winky and ends up talking with her about Dobby. "But I knows Dobby, too, sir!" And Harry (again, confound him) never asks, "How? Why?" How do those two know each other, bound as they have been to different households? Other wizarding social events? Ministry affairs? I'm that curious. Sandy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Oct 4 20:06:37 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:06:37 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Kneasy: > > 3.The prophecy storage at DoM may be a sort of Quality Assurance > > programme; store and protect so that no-one can read or interfere > > with them until events involving the named persons actually > > happen. Then check events against prophecy. > > Laura: > Probably, but then what? They're invalidated if they're heard > beforehand and they are useless after the fact. Talk about a > meaningless job...being a Seer must be a big drag. No wonder the > centaurs are so cranky. > Kneasy: Ah! That's where the QA comes in. When a seer has a bit of (or a lot of) a track record, the likelihood of their prophecy being accurate can be estimated. Helpful, that. But poor old Sybill had only the one, so she's an unknown quantity. Her great-grandmother, on the other hand... > > Kneasy: > > 4.Anyone who reports a possible prophecy must take care not to > > perform any action that may affect the course of events the > > prophecy deals with. Foreknowledge by too many people may > > influence events as they may act as if the 'prophecy' *must* > happen. > > Laura: > > And that's why this particular prophecy has been tainted almost from > the moment it was uttered. Once LV heard any part of it, his > actions would influence the remainder. We know that the original > prophecy could have referred to one of two children. snip Kneasy: So far as I can remember, we don't know how much of the prophecy Voldy's henchman heard. Certainly less than half. Or probably. Maybe. It matters. A small taster would be as likely to send Voldy into a feeding frenzy as would nearly all of it. He wants to know. That was the whole reason for the MoM raid; he wants to, must know, what it says. Getting Harry there was all about getting the prophecy, not about nailing that unmitigated pest; not at first, anyway. Only when the prophecy was safe in Malfoy's sweaty mitts would Harry be in any danger. Prophecy first, Potter second. Just as with the Stone. As to two children being involved, we know because DD told us. Who told Voldy? How would he know, unless he had a line into the WW Hatched, Matched, Dispatched office? Does he know that Neville is a possibility? There is no evidence that he does. If you can find canon text that shows he has considered Neville a threat, please post; the rest of us need it for our twisted conjectures. > Laura: > > How would DD be able to conclude that the parents of the child in > question must die? Most people on this list agree that the power LV > knows not is love. But it's a leap from that to deducing that > someone has to die for that power to activate. > > I've already rejected your reading of the "neither...either" phrase > for what I think are logical reasons. > > Kneasy: Spoilsport! I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain. DD knew the risk to the Potters/Longbottoms *before* the event and did not act. If he knew that the prophecy had been partly overheard, he must do something to protect them. If he read the prophecy the way I have he would not be so punctilious. And what protection did they have? A renowned hot-head, unreliable and of no real use if Voldy turned up, except as a pointless sacrifice. He couldn't even fulfill that role; in his wisdom he passed it over to an agent of the enemy. If DD had been serious about the Potters having protection, the secret keeper would have been a trusted Auror or even himself. Many posters whitter on about love from Lily protecting Harry. It only works if Lily dies; DD was banking on it. This was how he planned that Harry would be protected. This was part of the Old Magic he planned to spin around Harry. Blood ties inside Petunia's Privet Drive house, Lily's love outside the house. Lily was a necessary casualty. Laura: > I'm also wondering if James's death had any protective power for > Harry. After all, James also died protecting his child, as well as > his wife. But I still don't agree that LV's reaction to the > prophecy (or the part he knew) would lead him to kill Lily and > James. Kneasy: Did he have any choice? He gets a message from Igor!Peter - "Hey, Boss! That idiot Black has just told me where the Potters are!" Yippee! It's let's play at Herod time! Off he goes. James dies, details not known; Lily gets in the way, so she has to die. They were collateral damage (what a phrase). He did not set out specifically to kill them, but was quite prepared to do so. Laura: > If LV had thought about it for a minute, he might have > realized that Harry would be better protected as a baby than he > would be later at school, just because that's the way parenting > works. Kneasy: Not so. Just what protection did Harry have? James and Lily, against Voldemort. No contest. At school he has the protection of numbers, the staff, DD, the Hogwarts protective perimeter. Much safer. Laura: > He couldn't have taken DD's involvement into account because > he didn't know about it, except in a general way (DD wanted to keep > all the people in the Order alive, that is.) Kneasy: He knew. Who was the prophesy told to? DD. He was involved right from the start. And Voldy's informer would have told him so. DD may have liked the idea that members of the Order would survive, but there had already been major casualties (Moody, OoP). So far as he was concerned Voldy must be beaten; if it needs a couple more deaths, well, it's sad, but that's better than thousands. Laura: > In fact, if LV had > known how the power that would protect Harry would come to him, LV > might have gone to great lengths to keep Lily and James alive, just > to prevent Harry from receiving that ancient magical power. > Kneasy: Bingo! But he did not hear all of the prophecy and so could not appreciate what killing James and Lily would mean. (If I'm right in my prophecy reading.) Good fun, eh? From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Oct 4 20:11:07 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:11:07 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82277 We are told that Arthur Weasley is on the 1st floor of St Mungo's (Creature-induced Injuries), in the `Dangerous Dai Llewellyn' Ward for serious bites. The name of this ward makes sense, as QA tells us that Dangerous Dai was a Quidditch player who was killed by the bite of a chimaera while on holiday in Greece. It's appropriate for someone who has got bitten by a large snake. However, on the 4th floor, reserved for Spell Damage patients, we find that the Longbottoms, Lockhart, Bode and Agnes are all in the `Janus Thickey' ward. Why has this ward been named after Janus Thickey ? FB tells that Janus was a wizard who left a note that he had been attacked by a lethifold in 1973, when in fact he was discovered 5 years later living with the landlady of the Green Dragon a few miles away... FB explains it is hard to find out how many people have been smothered and eaten by lethifolds (which are dangerous cloak-type creatures), as they usually smother the sleeping and digest people whole, leaving no trace (!!). Apparently only the Patronus charm works on them, if you get a chance to use it, which you mostly don't.. However, because of these traits, they have been known to be used as excuses by wizards who want to disappear, leaving just a last, scribbled desperate note.. Is this another clue to what is going on in this ward, given all the Droobles Gum Wrapper theories that abound ?? Why else would it be named after this wizard ? It is noticeable that these are the only two wards named specifically so far, so it can't be an accidental reference. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 21:13:22 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 21:13:22 -0000 Subject: Azkaban - The Musical (filks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82278 These are the first three numbers in a Prisoner of Azkaban musical that I'm working on that's based on Lerner and Loewe's Brigadoon, that will be titled "Azkaban" (I'll resist the temptation to call it "Azkaboon"). There will be more elaborate stage (or screenplay?) directions once I get it complete. All Dedicated to Gail B. (1) Once on an Island To the tune of the Prologue to Lerner & Loewe's Brigadoon THE SCENE: Before Azkaban Prison. A group of Scottish dementors (we know they're Scottish because of the kilts they wear over their robes) dance a traditional Azkaban Island fling (i.e, they fling a few prisoners into a vat of molten lead) CHORUS OF DEMENTORS: Once on an island, an island off Scotland, A fortress far from the light of day There from that island, that island off Scotland, One captive wizard ran away. And here is what happened, The strange things that happened, To two captive wizards who ran away (2) Azkaban To the title tune of Brigadoon THE SCENE: As the Chorus of Dementors sing off-camera, on screen we see a large black dog swimming ashore the British mainland. CHORUS OF DEMENTORS: Azkaban, Azkaban, Guarded under ghostly gowns. Azkaban, Azkaban, Let your joy forever drown. May your soul lay dead within you, Let your sorrow reign supreme! Azkaban, Azkaban, May our nightmares kill your dream! (The dog transfigures to human shape once he reaches shore. He sinks to his knees, makes what appears to be a deeply solemn and somber vow, then Apparates to Little Whinging. Resuming canine shape, we suddenly find him facing a young 13-year-old wizard dragging a heavy trunk and carrying an owl cage. The boy falls over backward in shock. From a distance, both boy and canine are alerted to the sound of distant voices. (3) Come Ye to the Bus To the tune of Vendors' Calls and Down on MacConnachy Square from Brigadoon ERNIE (off-screen): Come on board our bus! STAN: On the Knight Bus! BOTH: On the Knight Bus! FIRST PASSENGER: Anglesea to Aberdeen On the bus, laddie! SECOND PASSENGER: Climb ye on the bus! THIRD PASSENGER: Though the ride may be too harsh For Ms. Marsh, laddies! FOURTH PASSENGER: [echoes THIRD PASSENGER] ERNIE: All come aboard! STAN: The engine roared! FIRST & THIRD PASSENGER: If you're lost or strand . MAN: You can go most anywhere With paid fare, laddie! SECOND & FOURTH PASSENGER: .just raise your wand hand! FIRST & THIRD PASSENGER: (one after the other) Come and join us! STAN & ERN: Come on board our bus! (Finally, the Knight Bus, with headlights ablazing, comes into the view of both HARRY and the dog. The dog bounds away, barking. HARRY, somewhat dazed, is taken aboard, as the Bus goes careening off again) STAN & ERN & CHORUS OF PASSENGERS (joyously): Come ye, all ye join with us, On the bus ! Come ye from Portree! Come from Appleby! Come Ballycastle, Come Wimbourne, Come Tutshill! Come we with a zoom! Load your trunk 'n' broom! Travel anywhere: Well ere morn You'll be there Down on Diagon's main Square! HARRY (aside) Now having just fled me Privet house, My prospects looked miserable. My Auntie Marge did so livid grouse I turned her dirigible. An exile's lot would now be mine I made off for Gringotts' bank But then into ken a black canine And this bus with a loud clank. STAN & ERN Come we with a zoom! Load your trunk 'n' broom! Travel anywhere: Well ere morn You'll be there! CHORUS OF PASSENGERS: They come with a zoom! Load your trunk 'n' broom! Travel anywhere STAN & ERN Oh come we with a zoom, We come with a zoom! Oh come ye load your trunk an' broom! Oh hear ye people, Travel anywhere CHORUS OF PASSENGERS: Take Neville there, Him to the square, Diagon square Diagon square STAN, ERN & CHORUS OF PASSENGERS: Well ere morn You'll be there Down on Diagon's main Square! (The Knight Bus pulls up in front of the Leaky Cauldron, where CORNELIUS FUDGE awaits) ERN: Now we arrive dead spot on The Cauldron, Nevvy! HARRY: Leaky Cauldron! FUDGE: Luckily I've chanced upon Lily's son, Harry! TOM: Welcome says the landlord Tom, Lily's son, Harry! FUDGE & TOM: At last it's calm. At last it's calm. STAN, ERN, We'll just say salaam, Say salaam! (Exit The Knight Bus) HARRY (aside): I'm thinkin' for sure I'm prison-bound When Fudge met me at the gate But now he tells me he doesn't frown When you make an aunt inflate But finest of all he says to me I'm not from Hogwarts thrown out Instead, I win open sesame With Diagon all shone out (Segue to the following day ? HARRY savors his freedom while all the wondrous products of the wizarding world are up for sale) FIRST CHORUS OF DIAGON MERCHANTS (sung simultaneously with below) All of ye see our potions brews, An' all of ye try new robes. Come see lunascopes in several hues, An' intergalactic globes. Come all of ye see amazin' brooms! A state of the art affair! Come all of ye see our new costumes! Come on and see things so rare! How it soars and zooms! See the Firebolt broom! SECOND CHORUS OF DIAGON MERCHANTS (sung simultaneously with above) Come buy potion brews! Gossip of the news! Come buy magic rats. New textbooks, Kneazle cats! Oh come buy gold gobstones, The gold gobstones! Oh come see how the Firebolt's flown! HARRY, TOM & CHORUS: Oh hear ye people, Hear ye ev'rywhere, Have a look! We are there! Down on Diagon's main Square! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From ratalman at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 22:56:53 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 22:56:53 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82279 Kneasy wrote: If he knew that the prophecy had been partly overheard, he must do something to protect them. If he read the prophecy the way I have he would not be so punctilious. He couldn't even fulfill that role; in his wisdom he passed it over to an agent of the enemy. If DD had been serious about the Potters having protection, the secret keeper would have been a trusted Auror or even himself. And what protection did they have? A renowned hot-head, unreliable and of no real use if Voldy turned up, except as a pointless sacrifice. Robyn: But we learn in PoA that Dumbledore wanted the Potters to use him as their secret keeper, as he was worried that information about them was being leaked to LV. The Potters refused, preferring to use Sirius, on the grounds that Sirius would rather die than betray them. That does beg the question, however, why the Potters would refuse the services of DD: did they have some reason to suspect his intentions, or, maybe they didn't take the threats seriously enough? From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Sat Oct 4 23:40:34 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:40:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ? Message-ID: <186.1ff36a07.2cb0b472@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82280 Carolynwhite2 wrote: However, because of these traits, they have been known to be used as excuses by wizards who want to disappear, leaving just a last, scribbled desperate note.> Now RSFJenny here: Ohhhh! Good reading! I hadn't noticed that. In the harmless sense, I can see how the name could be used because all these people have "disappeared" from the world, yet they are still alive and could potentially recover and "return". But I much prefer how you pointed out that lethifolds leave no trace of their attack and that is so far definitely the case in the Longbottom's imprisonment. I need to think more on this... :::rushes off to her books::: ~RSFJenny~ "Listening to the news! Again?" "Well, it changes every day, you see." - Vernon Dursley and Harry Potter http://www.geocities.com/rsfjenny/HP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 01:11:08 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 01:11:08 -0000 Subject: who calls Voldie "Dark Lord"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > The term "Dark Lord" seems to be used in two situations. > > First, by his supporters, as a term of respect. I will include both > Dobby and Snape in this category although I don't believe either to > actually support Voldemort. > I believe Snape uses the term for different reasons. Force of habit, > to begin with. As a DE, he would have used the term. And now that he > has switched sides, it is safer not to break the habit. mel: This is where I stand on the issue as well. What I wonder about really though is why Phineas Nigellus uses the term "Dark Lord". I never thought much about Dobby's use of it, and Snape really *has* to use it, but Phineas? Chapter 23 pg 496 US ed. "No. No, like all young people, you are quite sure that you alone feel and think, you alone recognise danger, you alone are the only one clever enough to realise what the Dark Lord may be planning -" Maybe it's just from hanging around (sorry about the pun, I really did try to think of a better way of putting this) Grimmaud with the Black family ranting and raving about 'Dark Lord this' and 'Dark Lord that', but it struck me right out of the gate, moreso than when anyone else in the books has used it. Mel who wants the Phineas Nigellus chapter of Hogwarts, A History. From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 02:47:26 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 02:47:26 -0000 Subject: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore (was: Why is everyone so convinced In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ratalman" wrote:Robyn: That does beg the question, however, why the Potters would refuse the services of DD: did they have some reason to suspect his intentions, or, maybe they didn't take the threats seriously enough? Talisman, or a boggart that looks a lot like her, popping in to say: Recall what Moody said to Harry as they looked at the old picture of the original OoP: "There's Marlene McKinnon, she was killed two weeks after this was taken, they got her whole family." (OoP 173) Or, Mr. Weasley telling why the Dark Mark caused such panic at the QWC: "The terror it inspired . . .you have no idea, you're too young. Just picture coming home and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house, and knowing what you're about to find inside . . . Everyone's worst fear. . .the very worst . . ." (GoF 142) The Potters were new parents, living through these times, and actively opposing LV. I'm sure they took the threat of his plans to kill them or their baby, very seriously. You won't be surprised to hear that I have always taken their refusal to make DD their secretkeeper as a mark against him. Maybe they understood that his plans didn't necessarily involve keeping them alive. Perhaps it was that spiffy rune charm (which I'm sure they knew about)and the whole need for sacrifical blood to activate it, left them feeling a little tenative about the old darling. On the other hand, no matter how much James liked his pal Sirius, it's hard to believe that he--or for that matter Lily-- was blind to Sirius's faults. Sirius's *just too clever* idea of switching with a weak toady because no one (in their right mind) would expect (or do) such a thing is so like the guy, who, when Lupin asked him for help studying for the O.W.L.s, "snorted [,] `I don't need to look at that rubbish, I know it all.'" (OoP 645) Yeah, he knows it all. And, it's hard to believe that Lily and James would have gone along with the great switch idea, if they'd been told. So, in granting himself the right to make the decision for everyone, Sirius displayed yet another act of incredible arrogance. Friendship is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't mean you don't know you friends limitations. DD often says he'd "trust Hagrid with his life," but we all know what a blabber-mouth Hagrid is. You can be sure that if DD gives Hagrid information, DD wants it spread around. Getting back to the choice between DD and Sirius, DD is supposed to be LV's great Nemesis, "the only one he ever feared." If it's down to the lives of your loved ones, do you go with your pal--who'd die for you--if he didn't do something stupid first--or the greatest wizard of the age? Unless the Potters were fools, they knew something about DD that made dear-but-full-of-himself Sirius look like their best option. Talisman, a bona fide member of the Fellowship of the DUST (Dumbledore Undercover Serveillance Team). From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 02:58:33 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 02:58:33 -0000 Subject: who calls Voldie "Dark Lord"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82283 "corinthum" wrote: > > The term "Dark Lord" seems to be used in two situations. > > First, by his supporters, as a term of respect. I will include > > both Dobby and Snape in this category although I don't believe > > either to actually support Voldemort. "melclaros" wrote: > What I wonder about really though is why Phineas Nigellus uses the > term "Dark Lord". I never thought much about Dobby's use of it, and > Snape really *has* to use it, but Phineas? > Maybe it's just from hanging around (sorry about the pun, I really > did try to think of a better way of putting this) Grimmaud with the > Black family ranting and raving about 'Dark Lord this' and 'Dark > Lord that', but it struck me right out of the gate, moreso than > when anyone else in the books has used it. I don't think anybody much sat down and decided, well, "I'm going to call him by *this* name, or I'm going to call him by *that* name," except maybe for Harry and those of his friends who are picking up the somewhat defiant use of "Voldemort." Since the name Tom Riddle styled for himself was "Lord" Voldemort, and terror apparently ran so high as to make saying "Voldemort" seem dangerous (in a "don't, he'll hear you!" boogeyman kind of way), then people had that "Lord" part left over. For a while there were probably people saying "Lord--" and biting their tongues. (And he was dark, oh, yes, precioussss...wait, that's another story .) So he became "the Dark Lord." Using "the Dark Lord" as a name is sort of halfway between the complete cowardice of calling him You-Know-Who or He-Who-Must-Not-Be- Named and the flat out refusal to be intimidated expressed by those who just spit out "Voldemort." I think more and more people, like Fudge, are going to call Voldemort "the Dark Lord" now that he's back and the whole WW knows it. In a way, knowing he's back is less frightening than dreading his return. The other shoe has dropped. It's time to put your foot down, somehow or other. Sandy From steve at hp-lexicon.org Sun Oct 5 05:43:01 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 05:43:01 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ? In-Reply-To: <186.1ff36a07.2cb0b472@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > Carolynwhite2 wrote: > > find that the Longbottoms, Lockhart, Bode and Agnes are all in > the `Janus Thickey' ward. Why has this ward been named after Janus > Thickey ? FB tells that Janus was a wizard who left a note that he > had been attacked by a lethifold in 1973, when in fact he was > discovered 5 years later living with the landlady of the Green Dragon > a few miles away... In my opinion, Janus Thickey found himself on the receiving end of a LOT of spell damage when his wife found him out. That's why the Spell Damage ward was named after him. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From Calimora at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 06:23:32 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 06:23:32 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82285 Amanda Said: > So. To Sirius. Harry has experienced that event. Sirius died. If he, > or anyone, decides to take a time-turner back and saved Sirius, > Harry's memory of the event would include Sirius surviving. It > doesn't. So nobody *will* be taking a time-turner and doing it, > either. > > They may even take a time-turner and *try*--but they will fail, > because the event as it has occurred includes Sirius' death. Their > presence in the past event may trigger some necessary thing--which > happened the first time we as readers perceived it, but did not > notice--but it will not *change* the events Harry, and we, perceived. Me: You are spot on with the way that a time turner works, IMO. In the Wizarding World, the phrase 'you cannot change the past' really means that you can not change what you (and others) knew in the past. There were two Harry's on the night of the time turner, and if any body had been looking at the Marauder's Map Harry Potter would have been labled twice. As for the question, 'Can Sirius be saved with a Time-Turner' the answer is YES. The key word is 'perception.' Everybody in the room saw what looked like Sirius Black fall through the Veil. That does not necissarily mean that Sirius Black fell through the veil. If at some date after the end of OotP Harry got his hands on a time turner, he could theoreticaly go to Grimauld place, go back in time and plant a timed port-key on Sirius, toss on his invisiblity cloak and join the ministry raid, and as Sirius says his 'last words' throw up an amazingly detailed illusion as Sirius is ported out. (Admittedly I don't know how powerful illusion is in the Wizarding World, but if it can make Hogwarts look like ruins, it can probably make air look like Sirius.) Or unethicaly, Harry could grab some wizard he doesn't like, put that wizard under imperius, Time-Turner back to when Sirius is alive, and poly-juice imperius!wizard into Sirius' doppleganger. Thus real!Sirius never goes to the ministry, but as far as ever body is aware, 'Sirius Black' fell through the veil. TT!Harry and real! Sirius spent the time between the switch and the time past!Harry time-turnered back to save him in the Shreaking Shack playing exploding snap. As long as Sirius stays out of sight until he shows up again, nothing has changed. Heck, Sirius could show up at Harry's two days after he gets back to the Dursley's and say "Hey kid! a couple of days ago you saved my life, here's the Time Turner you used. And don't worry, I'll help you plan it." As long as they aren't noticed, or everbody agrees to act in the way that Harry remembered, anything is possible. In JKR's world reality doesn't change, but what we know of it does. The reader is always limited to Harry *current* knowledge. Amanda: > Besides, plot-wise, she said he's gone. Sorry. Harry will have to > make do with the father-figures he has left: Dumbledore, Lupin, Mr. > Weasley, Snape. (not all father figures are positive, nor should they > be.) Me: For me this is the most telling evidence. JKR has stated that the dead stay dead. James and Lily are dead and aren't coming back. Sirius is dead and isn't comming back.... Assuming that he died in the first place. ~Calimora (who thinks of time travel in the Wizarding World like DNA replication, with a leading strand and a lagging strand.) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 5 08:54:42 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 08:54:42 -0000 Subject: too many topics, please search for your name or subject matter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82286 Toby Reiner asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/81946 : << How many wizards are there in Harry Potter's Britain? I ask, because it seems to me that the population is barely adequate to cover the infrastructure detailed in the books. (Especially a Quidditch league) >> When this came up before GoF and its publicity interviews, I started with the estimate that they need a minimum population of 16,000 to 22,000 (call it 20,000) to have as much economy and institutions as indicated in the books. (Muggles would need more people than that to have so many businesses, but the wizarding folk have magic to make up the difference: their businesses don't have to be more than paying hobbies). From that, I figured that there must be 1000 Hogwarts-age students to maintain a population of that size, so I felt very pleased when JKR said there are 1000 students at Hogwarts (which she had already said was the only wizarding school in Britain). Similar indeed to your estimate that 1000 students -> population of 15,000 if they had Muggle lifespans. But I have come to admit that the depiction of Hogwarts in canon really is the depiction of a school of around 280 students; despite the idea of crowds Hufflepuffs, double Herbology of Gryffindors and Hufflepuffs put out *twenty* sets of ear muffs. People have come up with different theories of where are the other 700-some students? Someone, IIRC Lexicon Steve, suggested that the ones who aren't magically powerful enough to get into Hogwarts went into apprenticeship for non-prestigeous careers instead. Someone, IIRC Steve bboy_mn, suggested that Hogwarts was the only School of Wizardry ie up to NEWTs level, and the other kids went to Schools of Magic (terminating at OWLs level). My own theory is that Hogwarts is a multi-campus school like University of California. The original campus, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry at Hogwarts Castle, is called "Hogwarts" like UC Berkeley is called "Cal", and other campuses are called by other nicknames, but legally they are one school and Dumbledore is Headmaster of the whole system. I figure that the top 280-some students get invited to Hogwarts at the Castle and the others get invited to the other campuses -- "top" involves being listed in a sequence that takes account of amount of magical power, length of wizarding pedigree, social status of the family and political influence of the family -- ie maybe Crabbe and Goyle are there because Lucius Malfoy said so. I wonder if Dumbledore takes the Sorting Hat around from campus to campus to have the same four Houses at each campus, or do the extra campuses have different Houses? Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82276 : << As to two children being involved, we know because DD told us. Who told Voldy? How would he know, unless he had a line into the WW Hatched, Matched, Dispatched office? Does he know that Neville is a possibility? There is no evidence that he does. >> I have long imagined the wizarding world has so small a population that all birth notices, engagement announcements, wedding announcements, and death notices are published in the newspaper. It could be a section of the Daily Prophet, but for my own purposes I prefer to believe that there is a separate paper which exists only to print such notices, the Wizarding Register. Salit slgazit wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82108 : << The second point is that we know that Voldemort is immune to death in the normal way. If he gets put on suspended animation again, how long will it be before he finds another way of capturing Harry or perhaps will even figure the hole in his original scheme >> Voldemort is no longer immune to death, as Deirdre Woodward said in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82191 . In the re-embodiment soup scene of GoF, he said: "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortal. I set my sights lower -- I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength. I knew that to achieve this -- it is an old piece of Dark Magic, the potion that revived me tonight". I've always thought that was the reason for the gleam in Dumbledore's eye: that Voldemort was mortal again. Eric Oppen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82029 : << I've had a theory for some time now that Lord V. is actually a front-man for someone else. A lot of his behavior just doesn't make much sense. If his goal is immortality, wouldn't it be smarter/better /less hassle to just replicate Nicholas Flamel's work and make his _own_ Philosopher's Stone? >> In RL, the Philosopher's Stone can be made only by spiritually advanced people, people who are pure of heart. Voldemort doesn't qualify. Your point still stands, because he *had* made himself immortal before he threw it away by attacking infant Harry Potter. << Instead, he wastes endless energy persecuting people whose ancestry he doesn't approve of (got some issues, don't we, Tommy?) and stirring up perfectly avoidable trouble. If, OTOH, his goal is to Rule The Wizard World, again, his actions don't make sense. He lashes out in ways that anybody above about the age of five would be able to tell him will make enemies spring out of the woodwork, devoted to hunting him down. If his goal's revenge, why not specifically target the people who actually hurt him? >> Diary!Tom told his goal in CoS: "a name I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in the world!" His goal is to be feared by all wizards. It's an insane goal (you can't eat it, drink it, get a massage from it, f**k it), which fits, as Voldemort is clearly insane. He wants revenge on every Muggle and every wizard and quite possibly every other living creature in the world. << He could have a shadowy sponsor, someone who is ostensibly the picture of pureblood respectability, who gave him the contacts he needed to start or take over the Death Eaters (I rather like the idea of the organization we know as "Death Eaters" having started out as a relatively-innocuous wizards' organization, only to be taken over by Lord V.) and provided him with the catchwords he needed to make sure his suck...er, his _followers_ would follow him blindly. >> JKR said in a recent interview that the Death Eaters used to be named the Knights of Walpurgis. We don't know whether that was a relatively innocuous group or something like the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Perhaps the Knights of Walpurgis was founded in a time of Muggles persecuting wizards, with the intention of protecting wizards by massacring ten Muggles for every wizard harmed by a Muggle ... Diary!Tom said he had always been able to charm people when he wanted to (except Dumbledore) (which is a widely-reputed characteristic of dangerous intelligent sociopaths) so surely he could have learned all the catchwords he needed while he was at Hogwarts. Even *Harry* has learned that there is a lot of anti-Muggleborn prejudice which is seeking a leader. Diary!Tom mentioned having made useful friends at Hogwarts ... "useful friends" sounds like it could include contacts to the various mages with whom he studied immortality ("the worst of our kind") and to future Death Eaters. That as likely makes his "useful friends" his tools as his sponsors. Lucius Malfoy is a valuable tool of Voldemort. Lucius Malfoy thinks *he* is using Voldemort to seize power over the wizarding world, and then Lucius will betray Voldemort by taking over. I wonder if Voldemort knows that Lucius plans to betray him, and whether Voldemort has good enough timing to trust Lucius until just the moment before Lucius turns, then kill him. It seems to me that a fair bit of Voldemort's behavior is not useful to Lucius, but Lucius does not control Voldemort. Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82043 : << So I argue that all the Marauders must have been Occlumenses, (Occlumentes?), and that they accquired this skill when they were studying to become Animagi. We've long wondered about Dumbledore's verbal arabesque, "not least keeping it from me" (quoting PoA from memory) when he talks to Harry about Sirius being an Animagus. Pip!Squeak speculates that it means that Dumbledore *did* know about the Animagi. But I think what we are hearing is Dumbledore skating around the thin ice of Occlumency; a subject he very much wanted to avoid. >> I don't buy it. If Lupin was such a good Occlumens, he could have given Harry the lessons instead of Snape. I don't believe the Marauders needed Occlumency to conceal their Animagery from Dumbledore. I imagine that Dumbledore only uses Legilimancy on students on matters of great importance. Without reading their minds, all he got was that they were engaged in some exciting project of rule-breaking, which he probably assumed was the usual practical jokes, "stealing" food from the kitchen, sneaking into the Restricted Section at night, making unseasonal trips to Hogsmeade ... he does usually know a tremendous amount of what happens in the castle, and it has been speculated that the portraits, ghosts, and/or House Elves report to him on what they see and hear. If the kids were paranoid enough, they could have concealed their Animagic books, practises, potions, whatever, from the House Elves who clean their room by keeping them all in the Shrieking Shack ... Sandy ms*bead*sley wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82275 : << I *still* want to know (I posted this before, I think, and it sank without a trace) how Winky and Dobby got to know each other prior to the World Cup scene where Harry encounters Winky and ends up talking with her about Dobby. "But I knows Dobby, too, sir!" And Harry (again, confound him) never asks, "How? Why?" How do those two know each other, bound as they have been to different households? Other wizarding social events? Ministry affairs? I'm that curious. >> My baseless opinion is that there is someplace House Elves are allowed to go hang out when their humans are all asleep and all the work is done. That's where male and female House Elves meet each other for courtship purposes, so they can get married and make new House Elves for their humans -- this hypothetical place must have some private nooks for the married couples to have conjugal visitation. (My theory that sons went to the father's humans and daughters to the mother's humans is damaged by Kreachur following his *mother*'s footsteps). Melclaros wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82281 : << What I wonder about really though is why Phineas Nigellus uses the term "Dark Lord". I never thought much about Dobby's use of it, and Snape really *has* to use it, but Phineas? >> Phineas Nigellus *must* have been a lot worse than his portrait to be in the running for Hogwart's most hated headmaster ... there are a thousand years worth of contenders. I don't think his perfectly reasonable dislike of children and his adorably campy bitchy remarks are enough -- he seems a perfect angel compared to Snape! Maybe, in life, he served a Dark Lord, murdered certain students or teachers in his Dark Lord's service, put others under Imperius to assassinate their own parents for opposing his Dark Lord ... From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Oct 5 09:42:08 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 09:42:08 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > Carolynwhite2 wrote: > > > > > find that the Longbottoms, Lockhart, Bode and Agnes are all in > > the `Janus Thickey' ward. Why has this ward been named after Janus > > Thickey ? FB tells that Janus was a wizard who left a note that he > > had been attacked by a lethifold in 1973, when in fact he was > > discovered 5 years later living with the landlady of the Green > Dragon > > a few miles away... > > In my opinion, Janus Thickey found himself on the receiving end of a > LOT of spell damage when his wife found him out. That's why the > Spell Damage ward was named after him. > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon Carolyn: Steve I posted my message late last night, and your solution occurred to me too, as I thought it over afterwards. BUT, it seems to me that even if that's what happened, and St Mungo's managed to sort him out, surely he wouldn't get a ward named after him unless he'd given the hospital a lot of money, in grateful thanks ? (eg like Lucius Malfoy has been doing). And he wouldn't have a lot of money as a pub landlord with his girlfriend and ex-wife and a child to support ! (If they make people pay maintenance in the WW). The other thought was that it was meant to be a simple play on sounds and meanings, which JKR likes to do, with 'Thickey' = stupid, and perhaps Janus = the 2-faced Roman god ? (Not sure about this, no doubt someone will correct me..) The message being that people in this ward got spell damage because they made some stupid decision about something, and also possibly because they behaved in an underhand way. However, although that might definitely apply to Lockhart, and possibly Bode and Agnes to some extent, it doesn't fit so well with the Longbottoms, from what we know about what happened to them so far. Maybe they did make some kind of stupid decision, which lead to them being caught and tortured ? Carolyn (who has several cats with lethifold tendencies..) From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 10:10:05 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 10:10:05 -0000 Subject: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore (was: Why is everyone so convinced In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > Getting back to the choice between DD and Sirius, DD is supposed to > be LV's great Nemesis, "the only one he ever feared." If it's down > to the lives of your loved ones, do you go with your pal--who'd die > for you--if he didn't do something stupid first--or the greatest > wizard of the age? > > Unless the Potters were fools, they knew something about DD that > made dear-but-full-of-himself Sirius look like their best option. > > Talisman, a bona fide member of the Fellowship of the DUST > (Dumbledore Undercover Serveillance Team). I think that they didn't use DD because, even though DD is the only wizard LV ever feared, DD is still the head of the resistance. DD isn't God, you know. Even he could have been defeated. If by some unlucky happenstance, LV were able to get to DD and retrieve the secret, that would leave the WW without DD, the greatest wizard of the age. I think the Potters were genuinely concerned about that. James just didn't want to put DD into more danger. Sirius would then be the Potter's logical choice. For some reason, they suspected Lupin of being the traitor. (I do hope JKR tells us why that was so.) So, Sirius, being a rather clever person, canon tells us he and James were the best of the class, suggests they use the least likely of the Marauders to be the keeper. Now, if Peter were not the traitor, this is really a rather sharp move on their part. We tend not to think that because we know that Peter is the traitor. Peter must have been quite the actor, none of them suspected him at all. He may have been what they call talentless, but I suspect that they thought that because of his appearance and perhaps he was lacking in confidence. If he was a bit of a bumbler, then they might dismiss his actual talent because of his reputation. Didn't Lockhart have the general populace of the WW fooled because most of the WW considered him to be a very talented and powerful wizard? Even though they are wizards and witches, that doesn't make them any better judges of character than Muggles, does it? They are still human, with all the foibles that humans are heir to. Just a couple of thoughts, D From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Oct 5 10:17:56 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 10:17:56 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ? In-Reply-To: <186.1ff36a07.2cb0b472@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > Carolynwhite2 wrote: > > find that the Longbottoms, Lockhart, Bode and Agnes are all in > the `Janus Thickey' ward. Why has this ward been named after Janus > Thickey ? FB tells that Janus was a wizard who left a note that he > had been attacked by a lethifold in 1973, when in fact he was > discovered 5 years later living with the landlady of the Green Dragon > a few miles away... > > However, because of these traits, they have been known to be > used as excuses by wizards who want to disappear, leaving just a > last, scribbled desperate note.> > > > Now RSFJenny here: > > Ohhhh! Good reading! I hadn't noticed that. > > In the harmless sense, I can see how the name could be used because all these > people have "disappeared" from the world, yet they are still alive and could > potentially recover and "return". > > But I much prefer how you pointed out that lethifolds leave no trace of their > attack and that is so far definitely the case in the Longbottom's > imprisonment. I need to think more on this... > :::rushes off to her books::: > > > ~RSFJenny~ Carolyn: Glad it helps ! A further thought, an extension of my reply to Steve. If the meaning is meant to be a play on the sound of 'Thickey' - that its a ward for people who have been stupid, would that also fit with the gum idea ? I still think adults chewing that much gum makes them seem moronic. Gum-chewing is (IMO) associated with people who don't have much to say, who are parking their brains and marking time. The question of course, is whether gum is part of the treatment at St Mungo's for this reason (maybe its soothing for people with major spell damage to their minds), or, as you assert, they are being force- fed it for more sinister reasons. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 14:42:06 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:42:06 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82290 SNIP > The other thought was that it was meant to be a simple play on sounds > and meanings, which JKR likes to do, with 'Thickey' = stupid, and > perhaps Janus = the 2-faced Roman god ? (Not sure about this, no > doubt someone will correct me..) The message being that people in > this ward got spell damage because they made some stupid decision > about something, and also possibly because they behaved in an > underhand way. > > However, although that might definitely apply to Lockhart, and > possibly Bode and Agnes to some extent, it doesn't fit so well with > the Longbottoms, from what we know about what happened to them so > far. Maybe they did make some kind of stupid decision, which lead to > them being caught and tortured ? > > Carolyn > (who has several cats with lethifold tendencies..) OR....Thick can mean slow, so the people in the ward as mentally slow or disabled because of spell damage and they are kept that way by underhanded means.... Also on a side note.... does anyone think that row 97 where the prophecy resided concurs with the year 1997? And the prophecy will come about during that year? I did not come up with this but agee with it and think that the deception surrounding the Longbottoms stay in St. Muungo's will be resoved in book 6. Any takers on this? Fran who is just dying, DYING to know when book 6 is coming out... From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 5 15:02:21 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 5 Oct 2003 15:02:21 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1065366141.63.42514.m16@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82291 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, October 5, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 15:15:13 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:15:13 -0000 Subject: Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82292 snip> > > Jen: (laughing)You do have a way of putting things, urghiggi! > > My hope, though, is that the Trio will understand and accept Luna for > her gifts without any *tangible* proof. > > I've read on here before that Hermione represents the Mind, Ron the > Heart, and Harry the Soul. To be successful in their quest, they need > to now include Luna, the Intuition. She is the missing piece from > Harry's equation, the power he denies himself every time he runs into > an adventure without consulting his internal compass. > > He turns to Hermione for knowledge, Ron to love him like a brother, > and now he needs Luna to remind him to calm down and trust his > instincts. Only then will Harry finally be the "One with the Power to > Vanquish the Dark Lord." > > And Harry, at least, is recognizing Luna for who she is. I don't > think Ron is far behind, and even Hermione admitted that "real > Prophecies exist" so she'll come around if she can suspend her > reality a bit. > > But it would be icing on the cake if the heliopaths come marching out > of the MOM! That's a great way to include Luna in the upcoming story! And I am one who has wondered why Luna was not on the train. I had a thought that her Dad may have picked her up at Hogwarts on his way to Sweden and the hunt for the Crumpled Horn Snorkack. someone posted in a chat room that maybe her dad was killed by DE's for printing the story about Harry and stating that LV had returned. Luna's dad may have gotten a quick quill note off telling her he was in danger and she took a threstral home to help. Fran From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Oct 5 16:48:03 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:48:03 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ?/Dumbledore ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > SNIP > > The other thought was that it was meant to be a simple play on > sounds > > and meanings, which JKR likes to do, with 'Thickey' = stupid, and > > perhaps Janus = the 2-faced Roman god ? (Not sure about this, no > > doubt someone will correct me..) The message being that people in > > this ward got spell damage because they made some stupid decision > > about something, and also possibly because they behaved in an > > underhand way. > > > > However, although that might definitely apply to Lockhart, and > > possibly Bode and Agnes to some extent, it doesn't fit so well with > > the Longbottoms, from what we know about what happened to them so > > far. Maybe they did make some kind of stupid decision, which lead > to > > them being caught and tortured ? > > > > Carolyn > > (who has several cats with lethifold tendencies..) > > OR....Thick can mean slow, so the people in the ward as mentally slow > or disabled because of spell damage and they are kept that way by > underhanded means.... > > Also on a side note.... does anyone think that row 97 where the > prophecy resided concurs with the year 1997? And the prophecy will > come about during that year? I did not come up with this but agee > with it and think that the deception surrounding the Longbottoms stay > in St. Muungo's will be resoved in book 6. Any takers on this? > Fran > who is just dying, DYING to know when book 6 is coming out... Carolyn (after lunch....) As a former innocent, sadly corrupted by MD theories, Kneasy et al, I think you are too right, and this is all part of THE PLAN. [However, I think 1997 is Book 7, not Book 6 - even more important for the prophecy to come true at the end of the series]. Its no coincidence that gum is a sort of sweet, and DD is a keen fan of all sorts of sweets, and probably highly knowledgeable of what goes into them, and their effects. He has also got an excellent reason to keep most of the inhabitants of Janus Thickey ward out of circulation: 1. Longbottoms - if they could speak, they'd blurt out what really happened to them. Bet they were expecting to be protected by DD when they were attacked by Bellatrix et al, but for reasons best known to himself, he was elsewhere at the crucial moment. 2. Lockhart - maybe he'd blurt out why DD really hired him, since no one can really imagine it was for his DADA skills. Alternatively, maybe DD doesn't want more elements of the basilisk story circulating too widely yet, as its not clear at the end of CS who exactly knows all the details other than Harry and DD (and by extension, Ron & Hermione of course). 3. Bode - well, he's dead now, but DD probably didn't want Bode to explain in any detail why he got into that state. 4. Agnes - we don't know how she got like she is, or indeed who she is. Some speculate she's Snape's mother or wife... Whoever she is, there is probably a reason to keep her quiet, like all the rest. A further thought about the Longbottoms, and the name of the ward. Maybe the pair of them really were not too bright, and did make a stupid mistake, which landed them in there. I mean Neville, bless him, is not the sharpest kid around is he ? Ok, so he's getting braver and trying hard, but he does seem a slow developer. Maybe he gets this from his parents. Grannie Longbottom seems a bit impatient with Alice (which is pretty unfair on a brain damaged person), and she is Frank's mother, so might try to overlook her son's faults a bit. Maybe this is the reason she is so insistent on Neville trying harder, so he doesn't end up like them ??? Maybe there's some symbolism to be revealed in his breaking his father's wand - he will do much better with one that really suits him ? From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 5 16:57:23 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:57:23 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > What proof is there that Harry is Voldys equal? Certainly he is not Voldemort's equal in knowledge. There is proof that he is as powerfull as him when both are on equal footing though. In fact, when it comes to a contest of wills, Harry is stronger. This is seen especially in GoF. Once the wands locked together it was Harry, through sheer willpower and determination, who forced Voldemort's wand to emit prior spells and he ended the contest on his terms. There is some evidence to that end also in their encounters in SS/PS and CoS. The only time where Voldemort is on top in the encounters between them was in OoP. At that point Harry is total shock, hasn't slept for two nights (remember the night before he was up due to what happened during his astronomy OWL and the fight in the DoM took up most of the next night. Has been through many frightening if not traumatic events (the vision of Sirius being tortured, the encounters with Kreacher and Umbridge, with the Centaurs, the flight to the MoM, the search in the DoM, the fight with the DE's and of course Sirius' death. He is physically and emotionally spent, whereas Voldemort is in top shape. Hardly a good example. > Additionally, his escapes seem to rely on factors outside his control. > Quirrell crumbling; Fawkes and a fangfully lucky guess in CoS; > conflicting wands in GoF; Dumbledore on OoP. He gets help to counter Voldemort's knowledge. I don't see this as contradiction. As his knowledge increases, he gets less and less help and has to rely more on himself. > The power the Dark Lord knows not. > This really is a can of worms. > Lots of posters will tell you they know exactly what this power is; it's > love or friendship or self sacrifice or steadfastness or, or... > We're all guessing on that one. Me, I haven't the slightest idea; Ditto here. I don't think we have enough information to draw conclusions, only educated guesses. > You may be right, but I read it a different way. > I don't think the MoM scene was about prophecies; yes, there was an > indication that Neville is about to find his feet; but mostly I think it was > about Harry and Sirius. About loss and it's effect. I agree but also think it was also intended as a lesson to Harry that his actions can carry deadly consequences. In a way this is the book that Harry is forced to cross the barrier from child to adult - too early of course. That is the real "invisible barrier" that separates him from his friends. Neither Hermione nor Ron have had to go through this and both are still, in many ways, children. The significance of revealing the prophecy at this juncture is that Harry the child could not handle it. Harry the adult, as in many ways he becomes at the end of OoP, can. As for Neville, I am sure he is not the one meant by the prophecy (it's Harry), but that the fact that he was a possible candidate will play a huge and unexpected role in bringing about its fullfillment. Salit From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 18:00:48 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:00:48 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82295 There's been some debate about Harry's ability, or lack thereof, to be EQUAL to Voldemort. It's obvious to us, and especially to Harry himself, that he has got by in his confrontations with Voldemort on a combination of luck, simple charms, guesses, willingness to accept death, courage, loyalty, outside help. I don't think we're intended to see him as an equal match -- except, possibly, in his innate power, which is evident but still untrained and not fully realized. As for being "marked" as an equal, it seems the general assumption has been that Voldemort marked him as a baby, and thus making the "mark him as his equal" part of the prophecy fall into place. But it seems to me that trying to kill a baby isn't considering that baby an equal, unless we assume that his reason for trying to kill him is that he believes Harry is to grow to be as powerful as he. What I see as more likely is that Harry was "marked as an equal" in the graveyard scene, when Voldemort was mocking Harry, forcing him to go through the motions of a duel. In that scene, even though it was all in ridicule, Voldemort did indeed mark Harry as an equal. And so in light of that, I can see where Kneazle can speculate that Voldemort would do the same with Neville; and thus the terms of the prophecy could still just as likely apply to Neville. hg. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 18:01:57 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:01:57 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ?/Dumbledore ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" > wrote: > > SNIP > > > The other thought was that it was meant to be a simple play on > > sounds > > > and meanings, which JKR likes to do, with 'Thickey' = stupid, and > > > perhaps Janus = the 2-faced Roman god ? (Not sure about this, no > > > doubt someone will correct me..) The message being that people in > > > this ward got spell damage because they made some stupid decision > > > about something, and also possibly because they behaved in an > > > underhand way. > > > > > > However, although that might definitely apply to Lockhart, and > > > possibly Bode and Agnes to some extent, it doesn't fit so well > with > > > the Longbottoms, from what we know about what happened to them so > > > far. Maybe they did make some kind of stupid decision, which lead > > to > > > them being caught and tortured ? > > > > > > Carolyn > > > (who has several cats with lethifold tendencies..) > > > > OR....Thick can mean slow, so the people in the ward as mentally > slow > > or disabled because of spell damage and they are kept that way by > > underhanded means.... > > > > Also on a side note.... does anyone think that row 97 where the > > prophecy resided concurs with the year 1997? And the prophecy will > > come about during that year? I did not come up with this but agee > > with it and think that the deception surrounding the Longbottoms > stay > > in St. Muungo's will be resoved in book 6. Any takers on this? > > Fran > > who is just dying, DYING to know when book 6 is coming out... > > Carolyn (after lunch....) > As a former innocent, sadly corrupted by MD theories, Kneasy et al, I > think you are too right, and this is all part of THE PLAN. [However, > I think 1997 is Book 7, not Book 6 - even more important for the > prophecy to come true at the end of the series]. Its no coincidence > that gum is a sort of sweet, and DD is a keen fan of all sorts of > sweets, and probably highly knowledgeable of what goes into them, and > their effects. > Actually I meant 1997 is book 7 and book 6 is where we will hopefully see resolution to the Longbottoms. I however think the Longbottoms are being kept in their current state by LV and the DE's not DD. We have also seen throught the series, characters given sweets to shut them up. DD offered McGonagal a lemon drop in PS/SS so she would stop talking about LV's demise and the Potter's death. In OOP she pushes Ginger Newts on Harry to fill his mouth so he will stop talking and listen. That gives more canon maybe to the Longbottoms chewing so much Droobles...they have their mouth full so they cannot speak. Plus it is full of mind numbing potion put their by someone wanting to keep them quiet. Fran Fran From dfran at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 5 10:26:42 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 10:26:42 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > > persephone_kore wrote: > > Actually, I suspect that this may be an intrinsic feature of > foreseeing in HP. You can see bits or signs of the future, but it will > /never/ have just one possible meaning until after it's all over. > > And I don't see why readers aren't suspecting that JKR might play on > this too. Maybe it will turn out that the prophecy is wrong. Maybe > Harry won't be the one to vanquish Voldy. > > Kneazle: > > I concur,(and with HG's post #82166), but I don't believe the > prophecy is wrong. I just think the Prophecy can be satisfied by a > number of wildly different scenarios. > > In the Dept of Mysteries the prophecy is labelled "Voldemort and > Harry Potter(?)" It may not refer to Harry at all, but that doesn't > make it wrong. DD seems convinced the prophecy refers to Harry, but > DD has been wrong before. Or DD could be lying. > > I wonder if someone (Kneasy? Talisman?) has considered the truly > horror-inspiring possibility that Dumbledore has been using HP as a > decoy for sixteen years to protect Neville Longbottom. > > I think I just gave myself nightmares. DeeDee I agree with Neville actually being the one... Was Neville marked as an equal when DE's on V's orders essencially made him an orphan even though he was not..just like Voldemort until his late teens? (Not to mention if they played with his memory to boot--did the DE's cast a spell to submerse Neville's magic?). Did, in not hearing the entire prophecy, Voldemort end up giving himself two opponents to contend with but only obsessed with one? How did Neville manage to survive the night HIS parents were tortured? Did the "neither can survive while the other lives" mean Harry's parents?(could his father still be alive--is this why the order of people emerging from the wand was askew in the graveyard scene?) --or-- Does this foreshadow something that must happen to either Neville or Harry? (Will Harry join his parent(s)/Sirius on the other side of the veil and Neville's parents be cured and Neville be able to live/rather than survive?) We only see the story from Harry's perspective most of the time. How often does Neville visit with DD? We DO see that many staff members show him "extra consideration"--even Snape. Prophecies are always subject to interpretation. We have to watch how all the characters in the story initially interpret/question. Harry had a question regarding why it couldn't be Neville... We have to wait to see if Firenze will make a comment on it. Madame T has made other vague predictions...She saw a Grim around Harry....but we cannot rule out that she simply saw Sirius and interpreted wrong. And then, we have Ron's sarcastic remarks throughout the series. So many questions and so few answers I get the feeling that we'll have even more questions at the end of the series. I'm off to start reading the series yet again...searching to find out whose wrong all or most of the time in the series thus far. (Who will it be? Ron? Hermione? Harry? DD? or my #1 candidate at this time-- Malfoy(teehee). DeeDee From rose at swicegood.com Sat Oct 4 16:05:54 2003 From: rose at swicegood.com (roseswicegood) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 16:05:54 -0000 Subject: Neville's poor memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > Eric Oppen wrote: snip (sorry) > > hg replies: > Eric, > 80761. (There's still an outstanding award of 50 points to the house > of the listee who gets the anagram.) > Then again, it could be just a simple matter of her being such a > powerhouse type that no-one questions her or pushes a matter with > her, or her opinions are too strong to sway. What do you think? > hg. I think there's more to Gran than has yet been brought forward. The question: why is Neville's greatest fear Snape? Shouldn't it be LV? Lupin would have known Neville's history. He, Neville, too should have sat out the boggart exercise. Speaking of strong opinions: is the anagram "ONE and TWO" for our favorite trio? Rose From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Oct 4 19:56:09 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 15:56:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville and the Prophecy (Was Re: A litte more on the Pro... Message-ID: <1a2.1adc70b1.2cb07fd9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82299 In a message dated 10/4/03 10:05:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, deemarie1a at yahoo.com writes: > But, Kneazle, don't you think if the MoM thought the prophesy applied > to Neville also, they would have labeled it Harry Potter (?), Neville > Longbottom (?) > Let me answer this one, on the shelf it is labelled, S.B.T. to A.P.W.B.D Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter Then we learn from Dumbledore that it was changed after the attack on Harry and his parents. The possibility of the prophecy to mean Neville is still a valid one. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 18:21:19 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:21:19 -0000 Subject: The Power V knows not (was Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82300 Kneasy and Kneazle (this is worse than Pip! and Pippin-at least I have them figured out:)) were discussing Harry being V's equal, when Kneasy happened to comment: > Additionally, his escapes seem to rely on factors outside his control. > Quirrell crumbling; Fawkes and a fangfully lucky guess in CoS; > conflicting wands in GoF; Dumbledore on OoP. > None of it is intentional; none of it is Harry exercising magical power > by choice. What he is is bloody lucky. Now my (Ginger) brain totally skipped topics to yell Eureka! "He will have power the Dark Lord knows not". What if that power is Luck? LV lost it when he drank the unicorn's blood, if we assume that since it was drunk for him, that he is the one to bear the curse. Not that Quirrell was particularly fortunate. Firenze tells Harry that after drinking unicorn blood you have "a half-life, a cursed life". I'm taking the word "knows" to mean "is closely acquainted with" rather than "has knowledge of the existance of", which seems to be the way most people who have made guesses (love, hope, etc.) seem to take it. When does Harry's luck start? One could say when he survived the first AK in Godric's Hollow. And "You-Know-Who" became "Where'd-He- Go?" Not good luck for him at all. Harry's luck seems to fade over the next decade. Then we have Kneasy's points above. All of Harry's *really* good luck seems to happen at LV's expense. Which, of course, raises the question: Is Luck a Power? It certainly isn't a power in the intrinsic sense, but it is an external force. Maybe it would qualify. Thoughts? Ginger, who realizes that Eureka (I have found it) is not appropriate, as Kneasy is the one who found it, but didn't think Kneasareka was a bona fide word. Perhaps it should be. From ernie_prang at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 20:10:27 2003 From: ernie_prang at hotmail.com (Ernie Prang) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 21:10:27 +0100 Subject: Sirius' death and the power of love Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82301 Several of the ideas in this post have been put forward by others, particularly Terry LJ and Hans, but I haven't quite seen them put together in the way I am suggesting here. If someone else has essentially said what is in this post, please let me know. This post combines the following themes: - the 'locked room', presumed to be love, and the power of love; - the meaninglessness of Sirius' death; - that it is our choices that are of supreme importance; - the uniqueness of Harry; - the idea that there is a Christian theme in the Harry Potter books. My starting point is the abrupt and random way in which Sirius is dismissed from the stage, quite literally. His death seems so *unnecessary*, doesn't it, and this is what, I believe, has so distressed fans. It seems as if JKR has gone out of her way to create maximum anguish for Harry, and maximum dissonance for readers who are used to getting a measure of reader satisfaction from the justice of outcomes in fiction. Sirius makes litttle material difference to the battle in the Ministry; by the time he is killed, Dumbledore is on the scene and rapidly taking control; all the time Harry had the mirror, use of which could have prevented the whole episode; the last few months of Sirius' life, far from being a blaze of glory fitting for a departing hero, are a supreme anti-climax; towards the end much of the shine of his character has been eclipsed by the Pensieve scene, and he does almost nothing to redeem himself when asked by Harry about it. Even Harry's love for Sirius is called into question: not its reality, but its effect, because it is his overwhelming emotional response to Sirius that provides an opening for Voldemort to trick him. The counterpoint to all this is the scene just a few pages later when Voldemort possesses Harry and tries to get Dumbledore to kill him. I'll quote: "Let the pain stop, thought Harry ... let him kill us ... end it, Dumbledore ... death is nothing compared to this ... And I'll see Sirius again ... And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the pain was gone; Harry was lying face down on the floor, his glasses gone, shivering as though he lay upon ice, not wood ..." I believe this passage is the heart of OOP. I understand it thus. Harry is in the grip of Voldemort, who controls his behaviour, who is seeking to end his life. Dumbledore at this point can do nothing (he "sounds frightened" a few lines earlier, anticipating Voldmort's move on Harry). All Harry himself wants is to die, the experience is so horrible. What saves him is his memory of Sirius, and specifically the knowledge that he will see Sirius again. His desire to see Sirius again is what Voldemort cannot stand, and he has to leave. Now, it's hard to know one way or the other, but I believe what makes this so powerful is that Sirius has just sacrificed his life on Harry's behalf: we have canon precedent for this in Lily's death. However, we have an ingredient impossible in the case of baby Harry: Harry's conscious knowledge and acceptance of Sirius' death. It seems to be this moment of consciousness, not the objective fact of Sirius' death, that defeats Voldemort. Notice that it is *acceptance*. Harry, like many of his fans, finds it hard to accept that Sirius has really died. The rest of the book is about his struggle against accepting it. But, in his moment of crisis, what saves him is his assurance that, if he dies, he will be better off - much better off - because he will see Sirius again. I think this links with the themes of love and choice. Harry is loved by Sirius, loved to the death. And Harry chooses, admittedly unconsciously, to accept that and see the good in it, even the benefit for himself. And that's what saves him. So now Sirius' death does have meaning, because Harry chooses to make it so. Listen to Dumbledore: "'There is a room in the department of Mysteries,' interrupted Dumbledore, 'that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you.'" He points to the moment when Harry throws off Voldemort as being critical. He emphasises the interplay between Harry's active attempt to save Sirius - and, possibly, by dignifying his exit, Harry *did* save Sirius - and his passive being saved from Voldemort. I'm going to go out on a religious limb here. I think this is Christian stuff. And central, heart-of-the-faith, irreducible-core Christian stuff. Harry, accepting the love of someone who has died on his behalf, and recognising that death is nothing, is saved from his lifelong serpentine ('coils') enemy. And see how, at the moment of his passage through the arch, JKR designates Sirius as Harry's godfather, the one who takes responsibility before God when birth parents are absent. I don't believe it makes any sense to try to construct a close set of parallels: Sirius = Christ, Voldemort = the devil, Harry = everyman, and then pursue that through the rest of the series. It's a picture for this book, and in the later books we may see the characters change roles. (How about Voldemort = everyman, and Harry = Christ?) But I do think this is the first real evidence to say that Jo Rowling is an author in the tradition of the Inklings. This is not just manipulation of symbols, or allusions to Christian tradition. This is theological, IMO. In summary: - it is the power of love, when one is loved, not when one loves, that is redemptive; - Sirius death is made meaningful, indeed effective, because Harry *chooses* to embrace it as sacrifice; - Harry's unique power stems from the uniqueness of the affection lavished upon him; - these are, IMO, Christian themes. Ernie Prang, driving the Knight Bus for thirty months _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Sat Oct 4 20:38:34 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:38:34 -0000 Subject: Why did LV kill JP? (WAS: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" < arrowsmithbt at b...> wrote: Laura: > I'm also wondering if James's death had any protective power for > Harry. After all, James also died protecting his child, as well as > his wife. But I still don't agree that LV's reaction to the > prophecy (or the part he knew) would lead him to kill Lily and > James. Kneasy: Did he have any choice? He gets a message from Igor!Peter - "Hey, Boss! That idiot Black has just told me where the Potters are!" Yippee! It's let's play at Herod time! Off he goes. James dies, details not known; Lily gets in the way, so she has to die. They were collateral damage (what a phrase). He did not set out specifically to kill them, but was quite prepared to do so. Now me (Gorda): OK, perhaps this has been covered already, and maybe someone can point me to the right posts. I have been wondering for a long time, even before OoP and all the prophecy business, why LV killed James Potter. Now, it seems like a straightforward question, right? "well, duh" you say, "to kill Harry." BUT... I don't have my book with me but I remember clearly that in GoF during the graveyard scene LV mentions that he went to the Potters' house and met James, and killed him. and then he says something like "But your mother need not have died, she died to protect you..." Then in the flashbacks that Harry has in PoA he actually hears confirmation of this story, he hears LV saying to Lily to stand aside. Now, if LV had set out to kill the entire family, why would he be telling Lily to stand aside? And if he went there to kill Harry, and the parents got in the way, why would he have been willing to kill one but not the other outright? Before OoP I figured that LV had some reason to want to kill all the remaining *male* Potters for some unknown reason. I had figured, like most of us, that a prophecy of some kind might be involved. But now that we know what the prophecy is, this doesn't make sense, because the prophecy, even in its incomplete form, would not have pointed towards James being any kind of threat, only Harry. Now, the conspiracy theorists claim that DD was banking on Lily's sacrifice to protect Harry, and some people have argued against that, because there would have been no way for DD to be sure that LV wasn't going to kill Lily first. UNLESS DD knows that there is a reason BEYOND the prophecy for LV to want the Potter line destroyed, in which case he would have been able to prepare a protective charm that would be activated with Lily's sacrifice, knowing full well that Lily wasn't a target of LV. Another alternative is that DD knows that LV would be reluctant to kill Lily for some unknown (to the reader) reason. I can't see LV having a soft spot for anyone, least of all a Mudblood, so it puzzles me that he wouldn't have just killed Lily and gotten on with it, rather than give her the chance to stand aside. Does this make sense? Am I reading too much into this? *nursing a twitching eye* Gorda From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sun Oct 5 01:30:11 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:30:11 +1300 Subject: Harry, Neville and the prophecy Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031005142414.00a328a0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82303 Been giving this a bit of thought. The suggestion that Neville could be the boy and Harry is just a smoke screen. It's possible I guess, but thinking about it, I have trouble changing tack that far and that much sideways. If it is true, I would like to see more hints or clues in the next book to lead into it. What I think now is that Neville is probably being 'groomed' to take on Bellatrix (sorry for spelling if wrong). Although it looks more likely that Neville will be the dark horse if DE's focus more on disabling Ron. Tanya From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Sun Oct 5 02:53:24 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:53:24 -0400 Subject: James Potter Message-ID: <006f01c38aeb$d8dfd040$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82304 Hello. I think that the reason James Potter did not have DD as his secret keeper is that he (Potter) did not take the warnings seriously enough. It seems to me that James was arrogant, and although he must have been more mature as a husband and father than at age 15, it was his arrogance that in the end allowed LV to destroy him and Lily. I think that is one of the main reasons DD gave Harry to the Dursley's : to prevent Harry from becoming a "pampered prince", more arrogant than even his father was. I also think that Tom Riddle and James Potter were related in some way, because they share not only a physical resemblance but also arrogance. Mary Jo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 11:55:29 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 11:55:29 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82305 Kneasy wrote: If he knew that the prophecy had been partly overheard, he must do something to protect them. If he read the prophecy the way I have he would not be so punctilious. He couldn't even fulfill that role; in his wisdom he passed it over to an agent of the enemy. If DD had been serious about the Potters having protection, the secret keeper would have been a trusted Auror or even himself. And what protection did they have? A renowned hot-head, unreliable and of no real use if Voldy turned up, except as a pointless sacrifice. Robyn: But we learn in PoA that Dumbledore wanted the Potters to use him as their secret keeper, as he was worried that information about them was being leaked to LV. The Potters refused, preferring to use Sirius, on the grounds that Sirius would rather die than betray them. That does beg the question, however, why the Potters would refuse the services of DD: did they have some reason to suspect his intentions, or, maybe they didn't take the threats seriously enough? Kneazle writes: The Potters may have felt DD was already in more danger than Sirius. Lupin says in the Molly's boggart scene that things were bad for the Order the first time around. They were outnumberd 20 to 1 and were being picked off one at a time. Lily and James may have felt like DD was too high profile a target to be their secret keeper. He had to have been high of the list of wizards Voldemort would like to see picked off. As Michael Corleone says, "If history has taught us anything, it's that anybody can be killed...anybody." The Potters must have known the prophecy. A child, maybe Harry, was going to be born who had the power to defeat the Dark Lord. I am sure the Potters didn't think that a toddler was going to stop Voldemort. So Lily and James were looking at a LONG time in hiding. Did they think DD might die of causes natural or unnatural before they were ready to resuface? Kneazle From oppen at mycns.net Sun Oct 5 18:37:13 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:37:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) References: Message-ID: <006601c38b6f$b4f52020$a3570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 82306 > snip> > > > > Jen: (laughing)You do have a way of putting things, urghiggi! > > > > My hope, though, is that the Trio will understand and accept Luna > for > > her gifts without any *tangible* proof. Hear, hear! *banging butterbeer mug on table in applause* > > > > I've read on here before that Hermione represents the Mind, Ron the > > Heart, and Harry the Soul. To be successful in their quest, they > need > > to now include Luna, the Intuition. She is the missing piece from > > Harry's equation, the power he denies himself every time he runs > into > > an adventure without consulting his internal compass. This is a very good point. Previously, he didn't need anything like that, but now that Lord Thingy is back, and has already demonstrated an ability to play with his mind, he's going to need all the intuition he can get. > > > > He turns to Hermione for knowledge, Ron to love him like a brother, > > and now he needs Luna to remind him to calm down and trust his > > instincts. Only then will Harry finally be the "One with the Power > to > > Vanquish the Dark Lord." > > > > And Harry, at least, is recognizing Luna for who she is. I don't > > think Ron is far behind, and even Hermione admitted that "real > > Prophecies exist" so she'll come around if she can suspend her > > reality a bit. *mini-sigh* Why, WHY are people so everlastingly skeptical about Crumple-Horned Snorkacks? Compared to a lot of the critters in _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them_ (which I doubt is the last word on the subject) they sound fairly mundane. I admit, Luna does come across as a person with a bad case of _glaubenwunsch_ (will to believe despite all) but that doesn't make the stuff in the _Quibbler_ wrong. Matter of fact, I noticed that the articles we saw _did_ contain a kernel apiece of truth: Sirius WAS innocent, and Cornelius Fudge WAS misusing his office. I wonder---does the WW have censorship or freedom of the press? If it lacks freedom of the press, even if Mr. Lovegood was aware that Something Was Not Right, publishing it in the _Quibbler_ straight out could have resulted in a visit to Azkaban. Or at least a whopping fine, and as a man with expensive hobbies, he can't afford that. I wanted to reach into the book, grab Hermione, and ask her why _she_ was so gosh-durned sure that things like Crumple-Horned Snorkacks didn't exist. > > > > But it would be icing on the cake if the heliopaths come marching > out > > of the MOM! > > That's a great way to include Luna in the upcoming story! And I am > one who has wondered why Luna was not on the train. I had a thought > that her Dad may have picked her up at Hogwarts on his way to Sweden > and the hunt for the Crumpled Horn Snorkack. someone posted in a > chat room that maybe her dad was killed by DE's for printing the > story about Harry and stating that LV had returned. Luna's dad may > have gotten a quick quill note off telling her he was in danger and > she took a threstral home to help. > Fran Simple explanation #1: She was sitting with her fellow Ravenclaws, the ones who are nice to her (I can't believe the house I get sorted into every time I take a sorting test is all mean to her!) Simple explanation #2: She was with the rest of the DA, but at the time of the Malfoy Incident, she had gotten up to find the little witches' room, sighing in relief that Moaning Myrtle was nowhere near. Simple explanation #3: If you'll notice, Scotland is on a fairly direct route from where we think she lives (it's apparently generally accepted that Ottery St. Catchpole is somewhere in the West Country, or Devon specifically, based on the "Ottery" element in the name) to Sweden. Mr. Lovegood could have collected his daughter and headed right off to Sweden from Hogwarts. --Eric, who wonders just how much Luna tells her Daddy about her adventures during the year. I liked a line I found in a fanfic: "I want to tell my Daddy---but not the editor of _The Quibbler._" From tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 18:47:42 2003 From: tiger_queen429 at yahoo.com (tiger_queen429) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:47:42 -0000 Subject: questions about HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82307 I have few questions about things in the HP world that i'm not sure about. 1. We know that Molly is/was Sirius's cousin though marriage, but how? I think that eihter Molly's maiden surname was either Malfoy or Lestrange (is that how you spell it) we know it can't be Tonks, since she is pureblood if Molly is the sister of one of Sirius' cousins' husbands. One possibility despite the lack of similarity in looks in that she is Lucius' elder sister this may explain the amount of dislike between Lucius and Authur. Lestrange could also be a possiblity. the only other possiblity for this would be if sirius was married to Molly's cousin (the girl staring at him in the DADA OWLS maybe)and if this is the case, then where is she? 2. We know that Voldemort said he could have spared Lily, but why not James? Did he do the same stand aside thing with James too? If he was only after Harry, then logiacally speaking James could have been spared too. 3. I know this question has been asked many time, but where are Harry's grandparents? For James' parents we could assume that they are dead because and the money in the valut was James's inheritace that passed to Harry. Though i cannot say the same for Lily and Petunia's parents. Why haven't they visited their daughter or their grandsons? Harry would know that they are dead because Petunia would have mentioned them at least once while Harry lived with them, or how come the Evan's have not even sent a card or something. Tigerqueen From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 19:08:31 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] questions about HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031005190831.41651.qmail@web20701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82308 3. I know this question has been asked many time, but where are Harry's grandparents? For James' parents we could assume that they are dead because and the money in the valut was James's inheritace that passed to Harry. Though i cannot say the same for Lily and Petunia's parents. Why haven't they visited their daughter or their grandsons? Harry would know that they are dead because Petunia would have mentioned them at least once while Harry lived with them, or how come the Evan's have not even sent a card or something. Tigerqueen My reply: I would assume that the Evan's are dead also. I think they were killed during the first Voldemort attacks. Which explains why Petunia understand so much about the wizarding world and that look of sheer terror that was on her face at the beginning of the book. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 19:13:41 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) In-Reply-To: <006601c38b6f$b4f52020$a3570043@hppav> Message-ID: <20031005191341.87663.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82309 DAve wroteSnipet: Matter of fact, I noticed that the articles we saw _did_ contain a kernel apiece of truth: Sirius WAS innocent, and Cornelius Fudge WAS misusing his office. I wonder---does the WW have censorship or freedom of the press? If it lacks freedom of the press, even if Mr. Lovegood was aware that Something Was Not Right, publishing it in the _Quibbler_ straight out could have resulted in a visit to Azkaban. Or at least a whopping fine, and as a man with expensive hobbies, he can't afford that. My reply: I think this is a very good observation. However, I do not know if the wizarding world has freedom of the press but I'm going to say that it doesn't matter in this instance. MOST tabloids if you read them thorougly enough have some truth to them, however vague it is. I think that she was playing on that with the entire Quibbler thing. However, I do think it's interesting that the Quibbler named it's sources. Who are these people? I would love to hear about them later. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 19:18:13 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:18:13 -0000 Subject: Neville's poor memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82310 hg wrote: (post 80761 -- There's still an outstanding award of 50 points to the house of the listee who gets the anagram.) and this about Gran: Then again, it could be just a simple matter of her being such a powerhouse type that no-one questions her or pushes a matter with her, or her opinions are too strong to sway. What do you think? hg. Rose replied: I think there's more to Gran than has yet been brought forward. The question: why is Neville's greatest fear Snape? Shouldn't it be LV? Lupin would have known Neville's history. He, Neville, too should have sat out the boggart exercise. Speaking of strong opinions: is the anagram "ONE and TWO" for our favorite trio? hg replies: You know, Rose, I wondered why Neville's greatest fear couldn't have been Gran, actually. I thought it made perfect sense for Lupin to suggest her as a foil for Neville's boggart, almost as if he had her on his mind as someone to be afraid of. (Here's this: do you think it surprised Lupin that Neville said Snape?) I don't think that anyone who wasn't old enough during LV's "reign of terror" would think of him as a worst fear, only because it's so abstract to them. So in light of that, I think that Lupin probably assumed the only one who would say LV would be the only one who'd had any direct contact with him, and that was Harry. Re the anagram -- are you twisting "and now, tea"? Nah, that wasn't it. But I like it, and you're the only one who's taken a stab at it. I'll give you a clue (or two): you're in the right place, and think cipher-speak. If you spend a half an hour, half a day, half a week on it and can't get it, I'll know I'm not barking up the wrong tree thinking that Drooble's Best Blowing Gum could very possibly be an anagram. (But don't do that -- I've spent hours on that blasted thing, I don't recommend it...) So I actually hope that it's rather difficult. I guess I'll end up awarding house points to anyone who even tries. Here -- ten for you. :) So Gran -- and Uncle Algie ("algae?") -- what's up with those two? hg. From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 18:33:22 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:33:22 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82311 HG writes: What I see as more likely is that Harry was "marked as an equal" in the graveyard scene, when Voldemort was mocking Harry, forcing him to go through the motions of a duel. In that scene, even though it was all in ridicule, Voldemort did indeed mark Harry as an equal. And so in light of that, I can see where Kneazle can speculate that Voldemort would do the same with Neville; and thus the terms of the prophecy could still just as likely apply to Neville. Kneazle responds: Yes, good show HG! In The GoF scene, Voldemort goes thru the motions of a formal duel, even if it is in jest. A duel is, almost by definition, a fight between equals. Voldemort bows to Harry and makes Harry bow to him. The prophecy doesn't say Voldemort has to mean it seriously. The prophecy doesn't necessarily describe intent, just an act. As far as marking Harry as an equal in 1981, I don't see how what was an unplanned occurrence (V didn't want it to happen and Lily didn't know what she was doing) marks Harry as an equal. If I try to shoot a rabid dog and the gun misfires and hurts me and simply scars the dog, I have certainly not mark the dog as an equal. That's an accident. On to Neville. I have been saying that neither Harry nor Neville has been completely excluded. The biggest differnce is the marking criterion. And V could still do that. From AllieS426 at aol.com Sun Oct 5 19:38:00 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:38:00 -0000 Subject: the reintroduction of Firenze Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82312 Sorry if anyone has wondered on this before. I was wondering if maybe Firenze has been reintroduced NOW because Centaurs can interpret the stars and prophecies and that sort of thing. I don't recall seeing him since the first book, and so why now, 4 books later, does he suddenly reappear, teaching Divination? I can envision in scene in which Harry, desperate to understand, tells Firenze the prophecy. Firenze may interpret it differently than DD, and may be the one to finally enlighten Harry (and all of us!) as to what it really means, possibly catalyzing future events? But then again, even Centaurs can be wrong... Allie From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 20:32:14 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:32:14 -0000 Subject: James Potter In-Reply-To: <006f01c38aeb$d8dfd040$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Neyer" wrote: > Hello. I think that the reason James Potter did not have DD as his secret keeper is that he (Potter) did not take the warnings seriously enough. It seems to me that James was arrogant, and although he must have been more mature as a husband and father than at age 15, it was his arrogance that in the end allowed LV to destroy him and Lily. I think that is one of the main reasons DD gave Harry to the Dursley's : to prevent Harry from becoming a "pampered prince", more arrogant than even his father was. > I also think that Tom Riddle and James Potter were related in some way, because they share not only a physical resemblance but also arrogance. > > Mary Jo > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I don't see how James could not take a threat from Voldemort seriously. I believe it was Hagrid who said in SS/PS that whenever LV went after someone, that person died. How could James not be worried about the safety of his beloved wife and baby? But you do bring up a good point. Why did James turn down DD's offer to be Secret Keeper? Did James not trust DD? Was it because he didn't want to risk the safety of an old man? Elli From lbiles at flash.net Sun Oct 5 20:53:20 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:53:20 -0000 Subject: Help me understand the importance of the prophecy, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > So I put in my alternative take. Does it refer to Harry and Voldy *only*? His parents are mentioned obliquely at the start - "born to those.." Why not another mention? Also, why should the "either" and the "neither" be talking about the same pairs? This resulted in a reading that can be written as "either (Harry or Voldy) must die at the hand of the other for neither (James nor Lily) can live while the other (Harry) survives.." OK. It's not perfect. But it did seem to make some sort of sense and fit the canon as we know it up to now. It also helps eliminate Neville from DD's calculations. I don't claim to be right; it was offered as a *possible* interpretation that resolved *nearly all* of the grammatical conflicts.>> >> Lots and lots of snipping above but we all know we are rehashing the prophecy again (and again and again) right? So here is how I define all of the pronouns: THE ONE (infant Harry) WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES...BORN TO THOSE (the Potters) WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM (the dark lord), BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES...AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM (the one with the power -- infant Harry) AS HIS (the dark lord's) EQUAL, BUT HE (the one with the power-- infant Harry) WILL HAVE POWER THE DARK LORD KNOWS NOT...AND EITHER (those who have thrice defied him -- Lily & James Potter *or* the one with the power -- the infant Harry) MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER (the dark lord) FOR NEITHER (the potters/infant Harry or the dark lord) CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER (the potters/infant Harry or the dark lord) SURVIVES...THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES.... Either Lily or James must die -- one of them had to die to give Harry the protection; it just happened to be Lily. But, neither can live while the other survives: LV killed the Potters -- they did not live while he survived; and then the next step he turned to kill the infant Harry who survived but LV didn't, all therefore fulfulling their little bit of the prophecy. leb From sydenmill at msn.com Sun Oct 5 21:07:09 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:07:09 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Showdown, 1997 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82315 OOP, ch. 34, pages 778 and 779: "'Ninety-seven!' whispered Hermoine. "...And he led them forward, between the towering rows of glass balls... "...They had reached the end of the row and emerged into more dim candlelight. "...'Have you seen this?' said Ron. "'What?' said Harry, but eagerly this time -- it had to be sign that Sirius had been there, a clue -- he strode back to where they were all standing, a little way down row ninety-seven, but found nothing except Ron staring at one of the dusty glass spheres on the shelves." Okay, so now we know WHEN the ultimate confrontation between Voldemort and Harry Potter will take place: a short time before the end of the year 1997. I'll put my bet on Halloween. . . This will be Harry's last year at Hogwarts. He will be 17, "of age" in the wizarding world and therefore under no restrictions whatsoever on his use of magic. That will be most interesting. The burning question I have, though: How did the Keeper of the prophecies at the DOM know to put this prophecy on row ninety-seven? Nowhere in what Dumbledore let Harry hear of the original prophecy from his Pensieve did it mention any time frame. So. Is this proof that Dumbledore did not let Harry hear the entire prophecy -- and, if so -- what purpose in the world would Dumbledore have of telling Harry that he is either going to have to kill or be killed, but not tell him when? Will the disclosure of when this death duel will take place be included in Dumbledore's speech at the end of Book 6? Curious minds want to know, Bohcoo From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 21:21:59 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031005212159.7205.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82316 Elli wrote: But you do bring up a good point. Why did James turn down DD's offer to be Secret Keeper? Did James not trust DD? Was it because he didn't want to risk the safety of an old man? Elli My reply: Perhaps, it's merely the other option. They trusted Sirius with their life. Implications in the book suggest that it is possible that Dumbledore suspected Sirius, case in point why he originally offered to be their secret keeper in the first place. He knew someone close to the Potters was giving them information. If Dumbledore would have gone to James and acted at all suspicious about Sirius, James would have probably gone balistic on him. James trusted Sirius over all his other friends, regardless of what we try to assume from the books they were best friends and loved eachother very dearly. And let's not forget that they were right in trusting Sirius, sure he made a major mistake. But he was loyal to them and did not falter no matter what. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydenmill at msn.com Sun Oct 5 21:40:34 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:40:34 -0000 Subject: Winky and Dobby Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82317 (Thank you to Catlady -- Rita -- for posting the following quote in her post #82286:) Sandy ms*bead*sley wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82275 : << I *still* want to know (I posted this before, I think, and it sank without a trace) how Winky and Dobby got to know each other prior to the World Cup scene where Harry encounters Winky and ends up talking with her about Dobby. "But I knows Dobby, too, sir!" And Harry (again, confound him) never asks, "How? Why?" How do those two know each other, bound as they have been to different households? Other wizarding social events? Ministry affairs? I'm that curious. >> Bohcoo reponds: I think you have hit on a significant "clue" in the story. How DID Winky and Dobby know oneanother? What if Malfoy and Crouch were tight chums who were in quiet cohoots to overthrow Fudge at some point down the line? It has already been mentioned how blindingly ambitious Crouch was and how desperately he had wanted to be Minister of Magic. Add to that the numerous mentions about how well "connected" Malfoy is. . . Doesn't it make sense that they would have socialized over the years, bringing along their house elves as their personal attendants, just as Crouch did at the World Cup in GOF and Malfoy did in COS? In that way Winky and Dobby would have become acquainted and developed a friendship, over many years. Of course, the implications are that Malfoy is not as loyal to Voldemort as he seems. I think he is just using Lord Thingy to get rid of those he considers to be in his way, much in the same way as Hermoine used the centaurs to get rid of Umbridge. Once that happens, Malfoy, who has been quietly building a power base among those of like-mind in the Ministry, will marshall his forces and take over after Harry Potter takes care of Voldemort for him. I honestly don't see Malfoy as the obedient, servant-to-Lord-Voldemort type. He has something up his sleeve and, as Phineas told Harry, "...given the choice, we (Slytherins) will always choose to save our own necks." (OOP, pg. 495) And, further their own ends. I see the friendship of Winky and Dobby as a "clue"... Sherlock Bohcoo From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Oct 5 21:58:39 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:58:39 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Showdown, 1997 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > > > OOP, ch. 34, pages 778 and 779: > "'Ninety-seven!' whispered Hermoine. > staring at one of the dusty glass spheres on the shelves." > > > Okay, so now we know WHEN the ultimate confrontation between > Voldemort and Harry Potter will take place: a short time before the > end of the year 1997. I'll put my bet on Halloween. . . > Although I think, it would be very clever from Voldemort, to attack Hogwarts at the beginning of september 1997, when nobody expects it, I am willing to put all my money of June 1998 as the date for the big showdown. This has several reasons: 1. It's always at the end of the school year, and I can't imagine it being different in book 7. 2. It's impossible to know when the prophecy will be fulfilled. Dumbledore says, he didn't know, when V would return. If he knew, that 97 was the year of the big showdown, he would also knew, that it wouldn't take Voldemort that long to come back. 3. If Dumbledore doesn't know this, the wizard (or witch) who labelled the prophecy can't know either. How could they know? Trelawney didn't give a date. 4. The Dark Lord needs some time, to become more terrible than ever. Two years is still not very much, but it's more than one year. So I think the 97 is just coincidence. It might be a hint from JKR, but I highly doubt it. Hickengruendler From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sun Oct 5 21:58:45 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:58:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius' death and the power of love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ernie Prang" wrote: >SNIP> Ernie quotes: > > "Let the pain stop, thought Harry ... let him kill us ... end it, Dumbledore > ... death is nothing compared to this ... > > And I'll see Sirius again ... > > And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the > pain was gone; Harry was lying face down on the floor, his glasses gone, > shivering as though he lay upon ice, not wood ..." SNIP > > > Ernie Prang, driving the Knight Bus for thirty months Ernie: Good post and as usual, it sparked another question and I was wondering what you might make of it. I include the quotation above since it is at the heart of my question. From this bit, we see that Harry was willing to embrace death for physical relief as well as the relief of being united with Sirius again. Yet, later, when he has his talk with Luna, he appears significantly taken aback when she mentions seeing dead loved ones again. Speaking of her mother's death Luna says: "Yes, it was rather horrible,"said Luna conversationally. "I still feel very sad about it sometimes. But I've still got Dad. And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?" "Er-isn't it?" said Harry uncertainly. She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh come on. You heard them just behid the veil, didn't you?" "You mean..." "In the room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them." They looked at each other, Luna was smiling slightly. Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna believed so many extraordinary things...yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil too... At first reading, it seems as if Harry is not at all sure there is an afterlife, a place where he'd be able to see Sirius again. Does this contradict his feelings during the possession? The feelings that apparently saved him from the Dark Lord? Your post just sort of exposed this to me. If there have been posts on this, someone please direct me because my search came up with nothing(as we know there is a knack to using the search engine). I really am at a loss to understand this unless Harry, so near death during the possession was somehow closer to Sirius and had no doubt or fear. There is this idea of the veil being very thin at death, the veil separating this world and the next. All I can think of is that the farther from death he got, he lost that knowledge. Anyone care to throw in their ideas? Jennifer > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 5 22:09:35 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:09:35 -0000 Subject: Neville and thestrals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82320 Since Neville was there when Sirius Black was killed, will he be able to see the thestrals now? Neville had never seen Sirius before, but does that matter if he witnessed Sirius' death? Thoughts? Ravenclaw Bookworm From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 22:12:15 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:12:15 -0000 Subject: Neville and thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > Since Neville was there when Sirius Black was killed, will he be > able to see the thestrals now? Neville had never seen Sirius > before, but does that matter if he witnessed Sirius' death? > Thoughts? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Neville can already see the thestrals. When he was in class with Hagrid he was one of the kids who raised their hands when Hagrid asked who could see him. And Hagrid knew Harry would be able to see them, and Neville also. Diana From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 22:24:50 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (Dragonetti) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Prophecy is True (Was: Marking as an Equal) In-Reply-To: <1065387209.7125.42768.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031005222450.19461.qmail@web12501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82322 "hermionegallo" wrote > But it seems to me that trying to kill a baby isn't > considering that > baby an equal, unless we assume that his reason for > trying to kill > him is that he believes Harry is to grow to be as > powerful as he. Me write: He doesn't know how powerful Harry will be just that he will be powerful enough to kill him. And nowhere in the prophecy does it say that V. deliberately marks harry as his equal. He couldn't kill Harry when he was a baby because they are not equal yet. Harry has a protection that V does not and V has powers Harry does not. > What I see as more likely is that Harry was "marked > as an equal" in > the graveyard scene, when Voldemort was mocking > Harry, forcing him to > go through the motions of a duel. In that scene, > even though it was > all in ridicule, Voldemort did indeed mark Harry as > an equal. Me write: I agree with you only this much: V completed marking Harry as his equal in the graveyard, but not because he agreed to duel with him. He dueled with him to show his Death Eaters, who probably know the prophecy as much as V does (I think) by the way, that he can conquer Harry. He completed marking Harry as his equal when he took, and forcibly at that Harry didn't mark himself, Harry's protection by cutting him. Also another point is that we know that Harry and Wormtail is connected because Harry saved Wormtail's life. Now, because V used Wormtail's flesh and Harry's blood, he too is connected to Wormtail, though he knows this not. I can't remember who, but somebody said that Harry is not equal to V by knowledge and that since knowledge can't be transferred Harry will never be equal to V therefore the prophecy is not true. I think, if you are waiting for exact equalness after knowledge and health and appearence there is chatacter and age and all sorts of things. I think they are as equal as anyone can be to anyone else. I think because the prophecy is all about power and who has it, equalness should be searched in power equalness and not much else. Before you ask let me answer, yes I think the protection Harry has is a power, a power that protects him. Thank you for reading. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Oct 5 22:26:39 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:26:39 -0000 Subject: Neville and thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > Since Neville was there when Sirius Black was killed, will he be > able to see the thestrals now? Neville had never seen Sirius > before, but does that matter if he witnessed Sirius' death? > Thoughts? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Neville can already see the Thestrals. It's mentioned in the chapter "The eye of the snake". He says, he saw his grandfather die. There is another part that proves, that Neville can see the horses. It's the very beginning of the chapter "The Department of Mysteries". Harry, Neville and Luna climb the Thestrals, while Hermione, Ron and Ginny can't see them and need help from Luna. Hickengruendler From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 5 22:43:42 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:43:42 -0000 Subject: Sweets of Silence/ Sirius's cousin by marriage/Harry's grandparents/LV-LM Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82324 Fran maneelyfh wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82296 : << We have also seen throught the series, characters given sweets to shut them up. DD offered McGonagal a lemon drop in PS/SS so she would stop talking about LV's demise and the Potter's death. In OOP she pushes Ginger Newts on Harry to fill his mouth so he will stop talking and listen. That gives more canon maybe to the Longbottoms chewing so much Droobles...they have their mouth full so they cannot speak. Plus it is full of mind numbing potion put their by someone wanting to keep them quiet. >> I accept that you have an insight about people being given sweets to shut them up, but I disagree with the idea that it is the mechanical act of filling their mouths. DD offered McG the sherbert lemon to change the subject, not to fill her mouth. (I don't think she even accepted it.) There is a theory that the Ginger Newts were magicked to make Harry calm down and *think* before shooting off his mouth to Umbridge, which could be defined to be a type of using sweets to shut him up, but I didn't see anything in OoP about McGonagall using the bikkies to fill Harry's mouth so that he physically couldn't speak at that moment. The first one, she listened to his entire explanation, and when he had finished and shut up, she said: "Have a biscuit, Potter", seeming for the moment as if she were expressing *approval* of his reported behavior. Tigerqueen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82307 : << We know that Molly is/was Sirius's cousin though marriage, but how? I think that either Molly's maiden surname was either Malfoy or Lestrange >> "Some kind of a cousin by marriage" -- "some kind of a cousin" could mean third cousin four times removed, rather than first cousin. For example, one of my friends has the anecdote from her college days of meeting a boy (his name would mean nothing to this list) and "I think we're related: isn't my Great-Aunt Sarah-Grace your Great-Aunt Sarah-Grace?" Sarah-Grace had two siblings. One married the sibling of a grandparent of my friend and the other married a sibling of a grandparent of the other person. My friend doesn't know how to label that relationship except as "some kind of cousin by marriage". << I know this question has been asked many time, but where are Harry's grandparents? For James' parents we could assume that they are dead because and the money in the valut was James's inheritace that passed to Harry. Though i cannot say the same for Lily and Petunia's parents. >> I feel sure that Lily and Petunia's parents are dead, or else Dumbledore could have put Harry to live with them. His mother's blood dwelt every bit as much with her parents as with her sister. As Melanie said, if the Evans parents were killed by Voldemort and/or Death Eaters, that would re-double Petunia's dislike of magic. 'Sherlock' Bohcoo wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82317 : << I think [Lucius Malfoy] is just using Lord Thingy to get rid of those he considers to be in his way, much in the same way as Hermoine used the centaurs to get rid of Umbridge. Once that happens, Malfoy, who has been quietly building a power base among those of like-mind in the Ministry, will marshall his forces and take over after Harry Potter takes care of Voldemort for him. >> Unless Voldemort is perfectly aware of what Lucius is doing, will know exactly when Lucius is planning to make his move, and will kill Lucius just before then ... ideally in some scheme that will make it clear to Lucius that Voldemort knew what he was up to the whole time and outsmarted him. As in my post 82286's reply to Eric Oppen's post 82029. From sydenmill at msn.com Sun Oct 5 22:55:14 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:55:14 -0000 Subject: Why the Wait in the Kitchen? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82325 OOP, ch. 22, page 476, American Edition The scene: The Weasley children and Harry have just arrived via portkey at Sirius's kitchen after Harry's vision of Arthur's attack: "'Hang on, you can't go tearing off to St. Mungo's!' said Sirius...'And how are you going to explain how you knew Arthur was attacked before the hospital even let his wife know?' "...'It matters because we don't want to draw attention to the fact that Harry is having visions of things that are happening hundreds of miles away!' said Sirius angrily. 'Have you any idea what the Ministry would make of that information?' "...'Listen, your dad's been hurt while on duty for the Order and the circumstances are fishy enough without his children knowing about it seconds after it happened, you could seriously damage the Order's --'" Um-m-m. . . . I think that cat's already wa-a-ay out of the bag, don't you? OOP, ch. 22, pg. 474: "There was a flash of flame in the very middle of the office, leaving behind a single golden feather that floated gently to the floor. "'It is Fawkes's warning,' said Dumbledore, catching the feather as it fell. 'She (Umbridge) must know you're out of your beds...Minerva, go and head her off -- tell her any story -- '" Umbridge, the mouthpiece to the Minister of Magic, knew they were gone before they even left Hogwarts' grounds. And you can bet Fudge heard about it before they touched down in Sirius's kitchen. So, then -- why the big speech by Sirius? The mere fact that they were all standing there in front of him should have let him know that everyone already knew that the children knew, "seconds after it happened..." If this could seriously damage -- anything -- to do with the Order, why did Dumbledore whisk them away like that? It was end of term -- all he would have had to have done would have been to wait until the next day and everyone could have left without raising the first eyebrow. They were receiving almost minute-by-minute reports from the travelling portraits, Everard and especially Dilys, so they didn't have to sit and worry without any news. I know that when a loved-one is hurt you want to be at their side as quickly as possible, but it just seems that Dumbleodre was a bit rash in sending everyone off in the middle of the night like that, especially with so much at stake. This whole sequence of events did not make sense to me. Can anyone help un-addle my brain? Thanks, Bohcoo From tmarends at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 23:23:02 2003 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 23:23:02 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" wrote: > tobyreiner asked: > >Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? > >> > Kneazle wrote: > > In the Dept of Mysteries the prophecy is labelled "Voldemort and > > Harry Potter(?)" It may not refer to Harry at all, but that doesn't > > make it wrong. DD seems convinced the prophecy refers to Harry, but > > DD has been wrong before. Or DD could be lying. > > I thought the prophecy sphere had "Voldemort and ?" on it until it was > determined who it meant. It could be read two ways I guess. > > (a) the question mark was not removed > > or > > (b) the identity of the second person is still vague > > > Kneazle wrote: > > I wonder if someone (Kneasy? Talisman?) has considered the truly > > horror-inspiring possibility that Dumbledore has been using HP as a > > decoy for sixteen years to protect Neville Longbottom. > > Well I am not Kneasy or Talisman, but I find that thought rather > disturbing but intriguing as well. > > Ok, let me remove my MD hat so this does not mix. Mostly because this > will paint a very bleak look on Dumbledore's morals. > > Now. We have a Dumbledore that has an orphan boy who he believes that > Voldemort will think will destroy him. What clues Voldemort has is > the scar on Harry and the fact that after he attacked Harry, he was > stripped from his body. > > Now. Dumbledore does work to protect Harry right after the events, > but he does not protect Neville as strongly. We can assume this > because the death eaters managed to break into the home and torture > the family. After those events, Neville went to live with his > grandmother, who does support Dumbledore, but she is not mentioned as > being a part of the OoP (though that could be a cover.) > > We then have Dumbledore working to bring Harry's DADA skills high and > ignored Neville to a degree except in Snape's bullying. Now, if > Dumbledore does believe that Neville is the prophecy boy, then he > *really* believes it is Neville, as he is, is enough. > > And, if that is true, then Dumbledore is *really* lying to Harry. He > is putting him in danger over and over and over again just to cover > for Neville and his need to be what? Innocent? Protected? A decoy? > It is the Sirius posing as the secret keeper to hide Pettigrew all > over again? And, we all know how *that* turned out. > > > Melody > who thinks that read of Dumbledore makes him just as bad as Crouch Sr. Me: I think you're missing something. Harry picked the orb up off the shelf. If the prophecy had really been about Neville and not about Harry, then Harry would have ended up in St Mungo's like Bode (I think it was Bode who tried to get it under Voldy's command) did. It was made clear that the prophesy orb could only be taken by the person (s) the phophesy was about... then, and only then, could someone else touch it. Tim From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 23:55:24 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 23:55:24 -0000 Subject: Winky and Dobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82327 Sandy ms*bead*sley wrote I *still* want to know (I posted this before, I think, and it sank > without a trace) how Winky and Dobby got to know each other Bohcoo wrote: > I see the friendship of Winky and Dobby as a "clue"... Actually, a while back I posted a hugely long and extensive post about this very topic. Help yourself: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53459 Follow up messages: 53469, 53485, 53487. I tried to cover every possible explanation I could think of. Hopefully you might come up with some more. :-D Actually, canon from OOP actually supports a more sinister meeting between Winky and Dobby because of the way we see Kreacher being treated. That is, he *never* leaves his master's house. *Never*, not even to do the shopping. So, it makes me believe even more strongly that the only way Dobby and Winky could meet each other is with the knowing consent of both their masters. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From HjamieP at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 00:20:02 2003 From: HjamieP at hotmail.com (Jamie Potter) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:20:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82328 >Elli wrote: >But you do bring up a good point. Why did James turn down DD's offer >to be Secret Keeper? Did James not trust DD? Was it because he didn't >want to risk the safety of an old man? > >Elli > > Jamie: Personally, I dont think that DD was ever going to be an option. We know how bad things were for the Order before baby Harry sent him off to la-la-land for 11 years. Hagrid tells us how bad it was and again in OoTP we are told that this time the Order is more prepared than last time. If you were part of a small order trying to defeat the most evil wizard in the history of everything and you had on your side the only wizard the bad guy ever feared, could you honestly say you would put him in more danger by being your secret keeper? If there's a way to break a secret keeper, you not only lose the presumed child of the prophesy, but also the only other hope that you have. You can't afford to lose both, so you chose the next best thing, and choose someone who would rather die than betray you. I don't think that the potters didn't trust DD, I think they tried to keep all options open for the Order. Jamie _________________________________________________________________ Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp From angelsound2001 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 00:29:57 2003 From: angelsound2001 at yahoo.com (angelsound2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 17:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: why only James had to die In-Reply-To: <1065387209.7125.42768.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031006002957.22405.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82329 What if it's as simple as Voldemort not wanting James and Lily to turn around and have another kid to fulfil the prophecy, after he'd removed Harry from the equation? Let's see... the prophecy says "the one" is "approaching, born as the seventh month dies." Granted, it's implied, but technically, it doesn't actually say it had to be that same year... and aren't prophecies traditionally fulfilled in unexpected, but technically literal, ways? In this scenario, once James had died, there would be no need for Lily to follow suit. Had Lily died first, the same could be said for James. Just a thought that's been floating in my brain for the last couple of books, but I thought would be disproved in Book 5. =) --Raven __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 00:44:09 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:44:09 -0000 Subject: why only James had to die In-Reply-To: <20031006002957.22405.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82330 Raven: >What if it's as simple as Voldemort not wanting James >and Lily to turn around and have another kid to fulfil >the prophecy, after he'd removed Harry from the >equation? > In this scenario, once James had died, there would be > no need for Lily to follow suit. Had Lily died first, > the same could be said for James. Actually, the prophecy never says that it's *James and Lily's* child. All it says is that parents had defied the Dark Lord thrice. And, when you think about it, if Voldemort had killed Harry then James and Lily would no longer fulfill the prophecy any more. If they survive the attack on the Potter residence they have now defied the Dark Lord *four* times. So, even if they did survive and have another baby it wouldn't fulfill the prophecy- it would be a child born to those who had defied the Dark Lord *four* times, not the three times why the prophecy speaks of. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Oct 6 01:17:19 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:17:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why only James had to die Message-ID: <2f.3fbcce35.2cb21c9f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82331 In a message dated 10/5/2003 8:45:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com writes: Actually, the prophecy never says that it's *James and Lily's* child. All it says is that parents had defied the Dark Lord thrice. And, when you think about it, if Voldemort had killed Harry then James and Lily would no longer fulfill the prophecy any more. If they survive the attack on the Potter residence they have now defied the Dark Lord *four* times. So, even if they did survive and have another baby it wouldn't fulfill the prophecy- it would be a child born to those who had defied the Dark Lord *four* times, not the three times why the prophecy speaks of. Sherrie (that's me) adds: Additionally, the prophecy specifies that it would be a child born at a specific time - so any child born at any time other than the end of July, 1980, wouldn't qualify to fulfill it. It had to be either Harry or Neville - and for whatever reason, Voldemort decided it was Harry. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 4 18:31:48 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:31:48 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82332 Kneasy: You may be right, but I read it a different way.I don't think the MoM scene was about prophecies; yes, there was an indication that Neville is about to find his feet; but mostly I think it was about Harry and Sirius. About loss and it's effect. With the added frisson that Sirius may have been zapped by his own side. Plus a chance for Dumbledore to put on his caring face, beat his breast, cry "Mea culpa!" and give an exposition and justification of his actions to date. The effect that this has on Harry is the key to the next book, if my hunches are accurate. Oh, there'll have been clues in there that I've missed, but you have to go with your own reading of it, don't you? Kneazle responds: I wholly agree that everything you mention is the primary focus of the scene. But I also think JKR is fully capable of making the scene do extra work regarding Neville (and about 20 other things I daresay). From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 11:14:24 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 11:14:24 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82333 Carolyn wrote: The other thought was that it was meant to be a simple play on sounds and meanings, which JKR likes to do, with 'Thickey' = stupid, and perhaps Janus = the 2-faced Roman god ? (Not sure about this, no doubt someone will correct me..) Kneazle found this on Wikipedia: Janus was the god of gates, doors, beginnings, endings and doorways. Symbolism: the god of change and transitions such as the progression of past to future, of one condition to another, of one vision to another, and of one universe to another. Janus was worshipped at the beginnings of the harvest and planting times, as well as marriages, births and other beginning. When Romulus and his men stole the women of the Sabines, Janus caused a hot spring to erupt, causing the would-be attackers to flee. In honor of this, the doors to his temples were kept open during war so that he could easily intervene. The doors and gates were closed during peace. His two faces (originally, one was always bearded, one clean-shaven; later both bearded) originally represented the sun and the moon. He was usually depicted with a key. From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 12:08:35 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:08:35 -0000 Subject: Could Time-Turner be used to save Black? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82334 Calimora: For me this is the most telling evidence. JKR has stated that the dead stay dead. James and Lily are dead and aren't coming back. Sirius is dead and isn't comming back.... Assuming that he died in the first place. Kneazle responds: I agree with you totally. I don't think he's coming back. But--this is an errant thought--there are lot of magics in the WW that we know nothing about, including that room where people can be aged or made younger at will that facinated Ginny so much. Sirius had a pretty miserable life. Hogwarts was apparently his high point by far. That room, a bit of time travel...hmmm. I wonder if somehow or another he will get the chance to do it again? A young sirius with no knowledge of his previous life aged 11 returns to Hogwarts for another crack at a happy Voldemort-free life. Let's make Harry his godfather! I am a sucker for a happy ending. From tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 5 14:16:36 2003 From: tobyreiner at yahoo.co.uk (tobyreiner) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 14:16:36 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "persephone_kore" wrote: > Honestly, I don't think that's the case. I suppose you could argue > that it's not absolutely necessary to either -- that there would be > other ways to tell the story -- but with HP we don't know exactly how > she's going to play on it, and with both HP and Star Wars (as with, > for that matter, much of Greek myth; it's rather a classic really), a > good deal of the point of the prophecy plot is how people's behavior > in reaction to /having/ a prophecy may lead to its coming true, or > lead to its coming true in a way they didn't want it to. Toby: If the point of the prophecies was that - to demonstrate how people's behaviour in reaction to a prophecy helps fulfill it - I wouldn't mind. But I get the feeling that, in both cases, the prophecy is being used to retroactively justify slight loop-holes in the storyline, and that doesn't advance the plot but, in my view, detracts from it. For example, it seems to me that Harry's prophecy is meant to explain why Voldemort was more keen to kill Harry than his mother and why Voldemort insisted on using Harry's blood to resuscitate himself. Yes, he might have disagreed with Pettigrew that he could use any wizard who hates him, but Harry isn't the only person to have thwarted him. He could have tried to use Dumbledore. (And I'm convinced that, in spite of the red herrings about Dumbledore being "the only one he ever feared", Dumbledore and Voldemort are both well aware that Voldy's the more powerful of the two). In Star Wars, I think the prophecy is meant to foreshadow some bizarre points about the later films. Most notably, the fact that in The Empire Strikes Back, Yoda and Obi-Wan beg Luke not to rush to face Darth Vader because his training is incomplete but then in Return of the Jedi, when Luke returns to complete the training, Yoda tells him that he doesn't require any more training, even though in between he hasn't received any training. How to explain this inconsistency? (Especially as Luke's training clearly isn't complete. Ok, Yoda's by now very sick, but he did still have time to tell Luke that if the Emperor tried to throw lightning at him through his hands, all Luke needed to do was hold out his hand and push it back at him). In my view, the purpose of the prophecy is to explain this. Yoda has no intention of Luke duelling Darth Vader because he knows that he can't win and, even if he could, it would be pointless, because Darth Vader, and not Luke, is going to be the one who brings balance to the Force, presumably by destroying Darth Sidious. Rather, Yoda just wants Luke to "confront" Darth Vader and rescue Anakin Skywalker's soul, so that Anakin can destroy the Emperor. The reason that Luke shouldn't face Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back, then, is that he's too immature to cope with the burden of knowing who Darth Vader is, and so he's bound to start a duel with Darth Vader as soon as he meets him. What Yoda wants is for Luke to merely agree to accompany Darth Vader to the Emperor, where the Emperor will try to convert him to the Dark Side. Witnessing this, Darth Vader, now older, wiser and not so broken-hearted as the Anakin Skywalker of yore, will be forced to rethink his decision and will turn back to the good. That, in my opinion, is why Star Wars has its prophecy. Persephone: Well, that probably depends on what you mean by "proof." It appears > that divination is treated as a legitimate area of study in HP, even > if Trelawny tends to be a joke a lot of the time; I suppose you could > argue that it /shouldn't/ be, but that people can see the future seems > to be an assumption of many of the characters if not JKR's fiat about > her fictional world. They may well have good reason. Now, what I'm > really pretty sure is true of HP is that telling the future is a very > shaky business -- people practicing divination are quite capable of > lying, and even when they aren't lying and genuinely see something > (which appears to be quite possible) they can misinterpret. I think > what /Firenze/ says on the topic in OotP, in fact, may be something we > can take at face value. (Basically, that it's tricky and even centaurs > can get it wrong by seeing the truth, or aspects of it, and not > interpreting correctly.) > > Actually, I suspect that this may be an intrinsic feature of > foreseeing in HP. You can see bits or signs of the future, but it will > /never/ have just one possible meaning until after it's all over. > Toby: Yes, I think that's true. Persephone: Well, Trelawny has apparently (unless Dumbledore is lying, of course) > had two prophecy "fits" that are very distinct from most of her misty > predictions. Her second one proved out, and rather quickly at that. > Plenty of readers are suggesting everything from Dumbledore being > deceitful about the prophecy to having missed bits of it to (and this > is the most common, I think) misinterpretation. "I don't think that > means what you think it means." Toby: I don't think the fact that her other prediction proved to be correct is any particular reason to think that this one will. I also don't think that DD has missed any of the prophecy out, although misinterpretation is more likely. I'd still like to think just plain old-fashioned being wrong is a possibility too, though. I don't see how Harry can be expected to compete with Voldy in two years time on the basis of their duel in OOP. Persephone: > Heh. I think, like HP wizards, the Jedi also have some... not > necessarily positive, I suppose, but /confirming/ experience with > prophecy, though it looks to me as if Yoda, at least, gets rather more > wary of it later on. "Always in motion is the future," he says in the > original trilogy. But it's also pretty clear that it's possible to get > /some/ information on it through the Force. > > I was in a class once where the professor compared the Aeneid to Star > Wars in various respects. When we got to the matter of destiny, > however, I thought the parallels broke down somewhat -- the only > people in the original trilogy who tell Luke he has a destiny are the > bad guys. And the Emperor is very smug in his "I have foreseen > it"-ness, but he still falls. In the prequels, it looks as if the Jedi > are a little too complacent themselves -- no one seems to have > considered alternate interpretations, or actually the one that's > probably the most obvious to the audience ("If you're way ahead in a > two-sided situation -- 'bringing balance' is not necessarily something > you want!"). ...Actually, I'm not sure what they think he's going to > do, come to think of it. Toby: To be fair, I think that the full prophecy is that the Dark Side will gain power and then someone will rise who will bring balance to the Force. And the Jedi do know that the Dark Side is gaining in power, and that their ability to use the Force is diminished. I think that's why they are so fearful. Persephone: > This is not entirely off topic, honest. ;) Star Wars is an example -- > I want to say /another/ example, because I strongly suspect HP of > being one as well -- of modern entertainment bringing in the very old > theme of misunderstood and/or self-fulfilling prophecies. So I think > most likely the one we just saw in OotP is valid -- but even if it IS > Harry to vanquish the Dark Lord, and even if he kills him, there will > be something weird about it. *g* Toby: Oh, I'm sure that's true. If Harry kills Voldy there will be something weird about it. Like someone sacrificing their life for him, Voldy being greatly outnumbered, desisting from killing Harry at the last moment or something like that. It would be far too banal to end it with Harry simply turning out to be stronger than Voldy. Actually I think it would be nice if, for once the ending of the series wasn't such a happy one. Maybe Voldy finally will takeover and...well, what? We don't know exactly what he wants to do. Is he going to declare himself Minister of Magic? Kill all the Mudbloods? Become Headmaster of Hogwarts? There's been virtually nothing on what Voldy's quest for power actually entails. From ernie_prang at hotmail.com Sun Oct 5 23:00:40 2003 From: ernie_prang at hotmail.com (ernie_prang2003) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 23:00:40 -0000 Subject: Sirius' death and the power of love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82336 Jennifer (travelling the Knight Bus under the name of Susan Bones) wrote: > we see that > Harry was willing to embrace death for physical relief as well as the > relief of being united with Sirius again. Yet, later, when he has his > talk with Luna, he appears significantly taken aback when she > mentions seeing dead loved ones again. and: > At first reading, it seems as if Harry is not at all sure there is an > afterlife, a place where he'd be able to see Sirius again. Does this > contradict his feelings during the possession? The feelings that > apparently saved him from the Dark Lord? and: > I really am at a loss to > understand this unless Harry, so near death during the possession was > somehow closer to Sirius and had no doubt or fear. There is this idea > of the veil being very thin at death, the veil separating this world > and the next. All I can think of is that the farther from death he > got, he lost that knowledge. That makes sense to me. When Harry was close to death he fixed on what really mattered, and that saved him. Afterwards, when coming to terms with Sirius' death, it took a lot of time and pain to bring together everything he'd seen and heard. He had to follow all the blind alleys, and rage against his loss. Yes, he'd heard the whispering, at a time when he had no idea what the veil might be, and it took time to accept that. While he was looking for a way for Sirius to come back, he wouldn't think about the possibility of himself going to join Sirius, and therefore about the voices beyond the veil. It's a bit like the Knight Bus, really. When Harry needed to get to the right place in a hurry, all his other thoughts and ideas just had to jump out of the way, higgledy piggledy. Once he'd got there, he had to look back at the landscape and see how it all really fitted together. That took time. Ernie It's not only the passengers who travel under assumed names From sgebhardt at t-online.de Sun Oct 5 23:21:57 2003 From: sgebhardt at t-online.de (kiel2fisch) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 23:21:57 -0000 Subject: the reintroduction of Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82337 Allie wrote: > Sorry if anyone has wondered on this before. I was wondering if maybe > Firenze has been reintroduced NOW because Centaurs can interpret the > stars and prophecies and that sort of thing. I don't recall seeing > him since the first book, and so why now, 4 books later, does he > suddenly reappear, teaching Divination? I can envision in scene in > which Harry, desperate to understand, tells Firenze the prophecy. > Firenze may interpret it differently than DD, and may be the one to > finally enlighten Harry (and all of us!) as to what it really means, > possibly catalyzing future events? But then again, even Centaurs can > be wrong... I'm afraid that Firenze would probably not be interested in interpreting Trelawnies prophecy at all (judging by his comments about astrology and other predictions of members belonging to our *limited breed*). I rather think that Firenze was introduced to show that some powerful and very magic creatures still are with the 'good side' even if they'll get divided from their companions. (Same for Gwarp.) (And Dobby.) When the war that just began advances, all magical creatures will have to make a choice on which side they stand (except the ever so neutral goblins, of course). The fountain of Magical Brethren was a nice allegory to that. sunnyi From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sun Oct 5 23:31:56 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:31:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? References: Message-ID: <004d01c38b98$dee8e280$46e879a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82338 > Tim: > > I think you're missing something. Harry picked the orb up off the > shelf. If the prophecy had really been about Neville and not about > Harry, then Harry would have ended up in St Mungo's like Bode (I > think it was Bode who tried to get it under Voldy's command) did. It > was made clear that the prophesy orb could only be taken by the person > (s) the phophesy was about... then, and only then, could someone else > touch it. Yes, but since it's never been made 100% clear that it DOESN'T mean Neville, there's the possibility that either of them could have picked it up off the shelf, yes? After all, what's on the placecard is just how someone else wrote it, it's not necessarily what dictates who can pick up the globe. Yes? Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "I Ate My Other Car" "... and your little dog too!" -- Two of the bumper stickers Iggy has, in the order he found them. (Otherwise, he wouldn't have bought the second one.) From evankimjeff at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 00:14:00 2003 From: evankimjeff at yahoo.com (KIM MACKLIN) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 17:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) Message-ID: <20031006001400.79141.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82339 Hi, I'm new to the list, from Western PA, 37 and Love HP. Anyway. while browsing the digest today I saw a post asking about the Evan's and where they all are. On Page 13 OoP it reads "So who've you been beating up tonight? Harry asked, his grin fading. Another ten-year-old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago--" I think this may be an important. You know how JKR slips things in and they are very hard to find. There seem to be many neighbors in the Privet Drive area who live double lives, or seem to be hiding. I know it has been said Harry has no living relatives, but that does not seem logical. Also, if this Mark Evans is 10 years old now, he should be 11 for the next book. Who knows, maybe he will show up at Hogwarts? I didn't come up with this on my own, I read it somewhere but cant remember where. Anyway, any thoughts on this? KIM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 00:36:09 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:36:09 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82340 Tim writes: I think you're missing something. Harry picked the orb up off the shelf. If the prophecy had really been about Neville and not about Harry, then Harry would have ended up in St Mungo's like Bode (I think it was Bode who tried to get it under Voldy's command) did. It was made clear that the prophesy orb could only be taken by the person s) the phophesy was about... then, and only then, could someone else touch it. Kneazle responds: What I find interesting is that only two people handle the prophecy-- Harry and Neville, the ONLY two boys the prophecy could possibly apply to. Apparently, at birth, the prophecy could have applied equally to either Harry or Neville. Basically, I believe the prophecy could still apply to eityher of them. I don't think the choice is not final yet. From dcyasser at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 05:03:04 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 05:03:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius' death and the power of love In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > --- > Ernie quotes: > > "Let the pain stop, thought Harry ... let him kill us ... end it, Dumbledore... death is nothing compared to this ... > > And I'll see Sirius again ..." >> > Jennifer wrote: > we see that Harry was willing to embrace death for physical relief as well as the relief of being united with Sirius again. Yet, later, when he has his talk with Luna, he appears significantly taken aback when she mentions seeing dead loved ones again. > Speaking of her mother's death Luna says: > > "And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?" > "Er-isn't it?" said Harry uncertainly. > She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh come on. You heard them > just behid the veil, didn't you?" > "You mean..." > "In the room with the archway. They were just lurking out of > sight, that's all. You heard them." > They looked at each other, Luna was smiling slightly. Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna believed so many > extraordinary things...yet he had been sure he had heard voices > behind the veil too... > > At first reading, it seems as if Harry is not at all sure there is an afterlife, a place where he'd be able to see Sirius again. Does this contradict his feelings during the possession? The feelings that apparently saved him from the Dark Lord? > Hi Jennifer and Ernie I don't think Harry is contradicting himself, just trying to understand himself. His reaction during the possession is visceral; what comes to mind is what he *knows* to be true, without thinking about it: he'll see Sirius. By the time of his encounter with Luna, he's been through so much brooding and meditating and replaying of events and a shattering discovery regarding his future, that he doesn't know which way is up, and can't clearly trust his own emotions, his instincts, or his reactions. (Does he want to be with people, or not with people? Does he want to talk about it, or not talk about it?) His reaction to Luna is very cautious because he is afraid to trust anything; she is confirming something that he does believe, but he is afraid to admit it, or perhaps to commit to it. We see him weigh it - "Luna believed so many > extraordinary things..." - and then accept it - "yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil too..." . I think Luna saves this belief for him, she restores that hope to him that he'll see Sirius again, and with that she restores the notion of Sirius' sacrifice. That's why his heart feels lighter after she talks to him. Thanks for bringing this up, I've enjoyed thinking about it. cheers dc From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 05:05:00 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 05:05:00 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: <20031006001400.79141.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82342 KIM MACKLIN wrote: > Hi, I'm new to the list, from Western PA, 37 and Love HP. ::Annemehr waves enthusiastically from just NE of Pittsburgh:: Kim: > Anyway. while browsing the digest today I saw a post asking about the Evan's and where they all are. > > On Page 13 OoP it reads "So who've you been beating up tonight? Harry asked, his grin fading. Another ten-year-old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago--" > > I think this may be an important. You know how JKR slips things in and they are very hard to find. There seem to be many neighbors in the Privet Drive area who live double lives, or seem to be hiding. I know it has been said Harry has no living relatives, but that does not seem logical. Also, if this Mark Evans is 10 years old now, he should be 11 for the next book. Who knows, maybe he will show up at Hogwarts? > > I didn't come up with this on my own, I read it somewhere but cant remember where. Anyway, any thoughts on this? > > KIM Annemehr: Well, I have some scattered ones. Let's see what we can make of them. At Harry's hearing at the Ministry, when Arabella Figg was being introduced as a witness for Harry, Fudge said that the MoM has no record of any other wizards in Harry's neighborhood. This would seem to preclude Mark Evans being a wizard. However, the MoM for some reason does not bother to keep records of Squibs at all, so I have to wonder if they also know nothing of Muggleborn witches and wizards who are below Hogwarts age. Before OoP was released, we knew only from *interviews* that Evans was Lily's maiden name. So someone who read *only* the books will have encountered that name twice in OoP, and in OoP only. It is nearly impossible to believe that this is only a coincidence. Also, from interviews only, we know that there is a magical quill at Hogwarts which records the names of every witch or wizard born -- and Minerva McGonagall looks up the ones turning 11 every year and sends them their Hogwarts letter. Since this quill is at Hogwarts, it is possible to believe that there are young Muggleborn wizards the MoM is unaware of until they begin at Hogwarts. For me, this is enough to counter Fudge's certainty that there are no other wizards near Privet Drive. But then, I used to operate under the assumption that A. Figg was a witch! ;) You make a point that many on Privet Drive seem to live double lives. I agree, but wonder if that isn't just pretty much the human condition. Finally, as to Harry having no living relatives but the Dursleys, that comes up a lot. Many speculate that Voldemort is responsible for the deaths of all the others. I have to wonder about the Evanses, though. If Harry's maternal grandparents needed to be killed, then how could it be that Lily herself need not have died? So, if Mr. and Mrs. Evans were killed in VoldeWar I, it would have to have been just a coincidence, just one of the random muggle killings that the DEs so enjoyed. Also, why attack Lily's parents and not her sister? Maybe they just died of natural causes. Then what about Harry's paternal grandparents, the Potters? Before OoP, many thought that Voldemort felt the need to wipe that family out, that the prophecy had something to do with a Potter being his downfall. Many of us thought that's why Sirius accused Wormtail of delivering "the last of the Potters" to Voldemort when he was made Secret Keeper (in the Shrieking Shack). After reading the prophecy I thought I had been wrong to think this. But now, I'm not so sure. Okay, so the *prophecy* would not lead Voldemort to go after the whole Potter line, but maybe Sirius knew something else. Maybe there was something about the Potters that would make Voldemort go after Harry as the one spoken of in the prophecy. Then again maybe all the Potters were active in the resistance to Voldemort and died in the fight. Is there any other hint to all the Potters being targeted besides Sirius' words in the Shack in PoA? Annemehr From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 06:11:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 06:11:24 -0000 Subject: Harry and Voldemort and killing each other In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Woodward, Deirdre" wrote: > Hasn't Harry already killed Voldemort, in the sense that Voldemort the immortal dark lord no longer exists? Now that Voldy is human again, he's no longer Voldemort, but plain old Tom Riddle, as Dumbledore pointed out at the end of OoP by calling him "Tom." Certainly, he's a powerful wizard, but he's human for the first time since before he started terrorizing the wizarding world. > > Deirdre bboy_mn: If he's now plain old Tom Riddle, who was a tall, handsome boy with dark hair, then why does he look like a snake; white skin, flat nose with slits for nostrils, and red cat-like eyes? Voldemort has returned to his self after Tom Riddle but before Voldemort's encounter with Harry Potter. Since he still looks like a snake, he still retains at least some of the transformations he went through. I think he has been so transformed, that the physical essense of Tom Riddle has been lost, so he can't ever go back to that again. By his own words, he does have some degree of mortality, but the exact degree is not clearly defined. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 06:35:44 2003 From: jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com (lynnfaragher78) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 06:35:44 -0000 Subject: a reason why lily didn't have to die.......... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82344 is it possible that Lily may have been LV half sister?.......his father may have had another child later on........has this been said before? let me know......... lynn From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 6 06:41:57 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 06:41:57 -0000 Subject: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore (was: Why is everyone so convinced In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > Sirius's *just too clever* idea of switching with a weak toady > because no one (in their right mind) would expect (or do) such a > thing is so like the guy, who, when Lupin asked him for help > studying for the O.W.L.s, "snorted [,] `I don't need to look at that > rubbish, I know it all.'" (OoP 645) I think this is very unfair to him. Here you have a situation of fear, Voldemort steadily taking over, you don't know who to trust, etc. They are new parents, they know their baby is in mortal danger. Naturally they turn to the 3 most trusted friends. They nominate Sirius as secret keeper. The OoP all know about it. Then they start suspecting Lupin. If they know that the suspect (Lupin) knows that Sirius is secret keeper, it makes absolute sense to switch, and if so, why not turn to a person whom you've been close friends with for over a decade. It is not Sirius' fault that one of his 3 best friends turned out to be traitor and that it was not the one he thought. Moreover, the poor man paid for his mistake with absolute hell for the last 14 years of his life. > Yeah, he knows it all. And, it's hard to believe that Lily and > James would have gone along with the great switch idea, if they'd > been told. So, in granting himself the right to make the decision > for everyone, Sirius displayed yet another act of incredible > arrogance. I am sure that Lily and James knew about the switch. > Friendship is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't mean you don't know > you friends limitations. Did they have any evidence to suggest that Peter was the traitor? Especially if he continued to display that adoring behaviour towards James as was seen in the pensieve? Just for comparison, think what a shock to Harry (or to us readers) it would be if Dobby would turn out to be a Voldemort spy. After all, his attitude towards Harry is similar to Peter's in the pensieve incident. Salit From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 06:46:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 06:46:23 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag - PROFESSOR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > Mandy (ghinghapuss) said (snipped): > > "[His] briefcase is his old school bag." > > > hg replies: > As I said in my post and in the quote from the book, the bag > says, "*Professor* R. J. Lupin." > hg. bboy_mn: Once again, you have unknowingly provided an invitation for me to expound on my long rambling theories about Education after Hogwarts. How could Lupin be a Professor? Well, he could have had a job in education prior to working at Hogwarts, but he has repeatedly said no one would give him a job because he was a werewolf. And if someone did give him a job, it would be extremely unlikely that they would have given him a job as teacher of tasty morsels of savory children. So here is my alternate explaination. Being in a situation like Remus, a person has two choices; 1) become a hopelessly depressed alcoholic, or 2) make productive use of your vast amounts of free time. I think Lupin chose route number two. In the absents of any true canonal information on the subject, all we/I can do is come up with a likely speculation that explains that which is not explained. I seems that Lupin mother is still alive, and I speculate that she has encouraged him to make productive use of his time, to improve himself, and to achieve something in his life. So instead of hiding in the woods getting drunk every night, Lupin stays home with is mother and studies. He reads books, he write reports, he does magical research, etc.... Now to my theory on education after Hogwarts. JKR has already said very clearly that there are no wizard Universities. I think mainly to supress any false expectations that there may be books after the 7th book. However, I do believe that there are ways of increasing your academic standing and recognition in the wizard world. This is done by independant study and research, and the submission of academic papers and presentations for review by academic review boards. These are private organizations that are publically recognised as having some merit and standing in their judgement of academic papers. For example, the International Confederation of Wizards might have an academic review committee. Wizards submit papers and give presentations of their research, and the review committee of qualified wizards determines the merit of this magical research. Once you have established a certain degree of proficiency and working knowledge in the field of magic, the review committee is empowered to grant academic titles such as Professoriate and Doctoriate which would grant the person the right to use the titles 'Professor' and 'Doctor' of Magic. I feel that this type of academic advancement is very consitent with image the wizard world we are presented. So, with nothing but time on his hand, Lupin would have nothing better to do than magical study and research, and to give some value and credibility to all that work, he would write and submit academic papers, and perhaps additionally submit research into various forms of magic. This would allow him to accumulate enough verifiable knowledge to eventually earn him a the title of 'Professor'. I certainly can't prove any of that, but, as I said, it seems like a model that is reasonably consistent with the wizard world. Someone suggested that this model is very close to Guilds in which, say a wand maker, is certified as a Master Wand Maker by the review committee of the British Wand Maker's Guild. Just a thought. bboy_mn From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 6 07:17:50 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 07:17:50 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Maybe LV is just suffering from a bad case of cognitive dissonance. > He's decided that it's Harry and that's the way it's going to be- > don't confuse him with the facts. I think that to start with, Voldemort had additional information besides the prophecy to suspect the Potters. James was indeed a target. Perhaps there was an additional prophecy from another source that indicated that he faces danger from the Potter line. Then he hears about the other prophecy, puts two and two together and goes off on his vandetta. > > Next, the prophecy > > 1. A prophecy can only be considered accurate *after the events it > > foretells have happened*. Obviously there must be some magical way to differentiate between real prophecies and the kind of predictions that Trelawney generally likes to make in class. My guess is that they have an instrument or a set of such that the DoM uses on suspected prophecies to determine if they are real prophecies or not. Something like that thing that DD used to confirm Harry's report of the snake attack, perhaps. Presumably real prophecies always get fulfilled (though not necessarily in the way the listeners suspect). > Which makes me wonder what good the blasted things are in the first > place. At no time and under no circumstances does learning a > prophecy help anyone-it's either too early or too late (as Kneasy > points out below). No. A prophecy must be fulfilled. The fact that it is heard and who actually hears it is part of the conditions that set out its fulfillment. In that way, it is no coincidence that it was DD that heard the first prophecy and Harry that heard the second. The prophecy *would not have happened* without the right set of listeners. That of course includes the eavesdopper. For the prophecy to be fulfilled, DD had to hear the entire thing, as he was the best person around to help bring it about - and the spy had to hear just enough of it to get Voldemort to act on it thereby sealing his doom. It may sound like a circular argument, but it works somewhat like the time turner in PoA. To save people in the present, their future selves had to do the right things at the right time. In some respects, the prophecy is a message from the future designed to set in motion the right sequence of events to bring about what it predicts. > And that's why this particular prophecy has been tainted almost from > the moment it was uttered. Once LV heard any part of it, his > actions would influence the remainder. But that was the whole point, wasn't it? Voldemort had to hear some of the prophecy in order for him to take action, thereby make it happen. > We know that the original > prophecy could have referred to one of two children. If LV had been > smart (apparently his spy neglected to tell him at the time that > s/he was passing along incomplete information-or else LV is not as > smart as he thinks he is) he would have bided his time in scenic > Albania and waited to see how the 2 kids grew up. Voldemort was told only that the one with the power to vanquish him approaches and how to identify him. Makes sense to destroy your enemy when they are least likely to resist. He had no reason to suspect that his act will actually help bring that about. That was the spy had to be there and hear just enough (and no more) so that Voldemort will do what he had to do. > But LV panicked > and marked Harry, thus putting Neville out of the running. And > having marked Harry, LV had no choice but to try to kill him. This > isn't prophecy, it's a logical result of his choosing to mark > someone. Ha? LV did not panic. He acted logically. He went to destroy one who was prophecied to have the power to destroy him when he was least able to resist. And Voldemort did not first mark Harry then tried to kill him - Harry was marked by the killing act itself. As for Neville, clearly Voldemort had additional information that pointed out the Potters as risk to himself. Maybe another prophecy? > After PS/SS, and definitely after CoS, it should have been > completely obvious to anyone in the WW who cared to notice that LV > was back and after Harry. How so? Both events were kept secret. Notice that even Harry's fellow students did not know that Harry killed the basilisk in CoS. I doubt any of them knew about Riddle. And if they did not know, how would the outside world know? > If LV had thought about it for a minute, he might have > realized that Harry would be better protected as a baby than he > would be later at school, just because that's the way parenting > works. Not really. He knew himself to be the most powerfull wizard alive. Once he knew where the baby was hidden, and that DD was out of the way, there was no reason to assume that he would fail to kill him. He knew he could defeat James and Lily. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the prophecy had to happen. Trying to analize how people's mistakes brought about the tragic sequence of events misses the point. They had to make them (or one could imagine a different set of tragic events to take place). Salit From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 07:40:40 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 07:40:40 -0000 Subject: Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82348 Okay, here's my reply, finally! I stayed off my computer for just one day, and had to spend all my free time Saturday just catching up on reading the posts! Still, I'm a firm believer that a thread is *not* dead if I'm replying to it! So, here goes... Talisman wrote (post #82031): > Sorry for the length. I decided that what was left of the > original "discusion" had to stay in place or it would be too > difficult to follow and would be more likely to lead to redundant > questioning, therefore snipping is minimal. Still, the entire first > agrument isn't here and can be found at #81908. > > Previously Talisman wrote: > Dumbledore tells us that it was he (not Lily) who made > the "decision" that Harry would be protected by a certain "ancient > magic" likely to slide under LV's radar.(OoP 835) > > We see that it is not simply Lily's death that gives Harry what > little protection he gets (partial days six weeks a year?) from > this "ancient magic." > > It is the "charm" Dumbledore placed on Harry (OoP 836) A lovely > little charm that just happens to require ingredients like Lily's > blood and Petunia's home. Stir it around in a pot and Dumbledore > says you've got "the strongest shield charm *I* [hear Dumbledore > claiming credit?] could give you." (OoP 836 my emphasis) > > Annemehr wrote: > You, however, state straight out that Dumbledore is responsible for > both the protection by Lily and the protection by Petunia. > > Talisman replied: > But of course it is DD who tells us that the reason Petunia's house > is necessary to the charm is Petunia's blood link to the sacrificed > Lily whose blood empowers the charm, so that's pretty > straightforward. I don't understand where you think I'm adding > anything. Annemehr now: The runic charm which left its mark on Harry's forehead at Voldemort's attack is a new idea since OoP. Your addition is that the protection charm was placed by Dumbledore; previously people who believed the scar was a rune had theorised that Lily had done it (since she was supposedly good at Charms). You stated that this implied premeditation on DD's part. I'm not saying that you've added anything to the text, I'm just saying that you're the first I've read to imply that DD had anything to do with Harry's life being saved on Halloween 1980. It's the Privet Drive/Petunia part that was always understood to be DD's contribution. > > Annemehr wrote: > To go a bit further, I would say that your use of quotation marks > above implies that I should type "protection" in quotes also. > > Talisman replied: > Well, I'm not sure what you see in my use of quotation marks, which > are only meant to accent the operative, canonical, terms > like "charm" and "ancient magic," but if you inferred that I think > the blood-pact explanation for Harry's years of abuse is hooey, you > are quite right. I do owe you that TBAY, and I will get it out. I > know, I've said it before, but I really want to and I will find the > time, somehow. Soon. Annemehr, now: I was being sloppy, unfortunately. I remembered getting the distinct impression you questioned how much protection Harry was getting on Privet Drive when I read your post. Then when I wrote my reply, I glanced at your opening paragraphs and attributed my impression to the many quotation marks when actually it had been the parenthetical remark that had done it. To requote you: 'We see that it is not simply Lily's death that gives Harry what little protection he gets (partial days six weeks a year?) from this "ancient magic."' Partial days, six weeks a year is not much protection! > > Then Talisman continued: >I suggest to you that the scar on Harry's > head is indeed the defensive rune "eihwaz," (OoP 715) and a > consequence of Dumbledore's charm. This, of course, implies pre- > meditation and orchestration. > > Annemehr wrote: > I'm reading from you an assertion that all this was very closely > choreographed by Dumbledore. [...] How can you defend going further than saying > that Dumbledore was using the rune as one of a range of defensive > moves for Harry? > > Talisman replied: > [...]I don't think we see a > lot of superfluous movement from DD. If you can point me to a > pattern of contingency plans, I'd love to consider them. The only > one I can think of right now is his vetting of the Neville/Harry > question. But of course the prophecy question is another topic > altogether and we'd better stay on course until we are through with > this one. Annemehr now: Who fights a war without contingency plans? And how would Harry (and thus the reader) see any? The best I can think of is in the Hospital Wing at the end of GoF when DD sends Hagrid off to the Giants and Bill Weasley off to the MoM to look for allies (e.g. Tonks, who is too young to have been a part of the old Order). By the way, I'm sure there are motions toward the Goblins too. In a Daily Prophet article about Umbridge being named High Inquisitor, Madam Marchbanks is mentioned along with an insinuation that she'd been linked to "subversive goblin groups." > > Annemehr: > And why couldn't it be James who died for Harry if that was how the > situation played out? Then you'd only need Harry in the presence of > either one of his parents at all times, a practice Lily and James > are likely to adhere to in any case, with their son so threatened. > There is no problem in suggesting one of them [the parents] > would need to die defending Harry, either, if it came down to that. > Why can't this be all DD did, > rather than arranging the deaths of James and Lily in a certain way? > > > Now Talisman writes: > My dear Annemehr. You know James was going to be killed anyway. > His death was certain and therefore not the "sacrifice" that Lily's > was. See e.g. SS 249, 298 and GoF 635. Both DD and LV repeat that > it is Lily's willing and unnecessary death that is key to the "old > magic," in all its applications. Annemehr now: *Do* I know James was to be killed anyway? I've just discussed that a bit a few messages ago, in a reply to "KIM", and mentioned Sirius' words about Wormtail delivering "the last of the Potters" to Voldemort in PoA. *If* Sirius really knew something about it, that would imply James was targeted too. Your page numbers above don't correspond to my editions, though I do believe I know what the SS ones are. The GoF one I can't find. I do read where V talks of Lily's sacrifice but nothing of James. I do remember reading *somewhere* V saying "your mother needn't have died" and think this must be what you mean? That would be quite persuasive, but I can't find it now to verify my memory of it. Talisman continued: > Moreover, DD's shield charm requires the home of a family member who > shares the blood of the sacrificed one. James has no other living > blood relatives, so even if his death could qualify for a sacrifice > (which I deny, no offense to James) there would be no safe home > created. Annemehr now: If James was *not* going to be killed anyway, and he had sacrificed himself as Lily did, he could at least have saved Harry that night, and Harry's further protection would have had to be arranged differently. Harry's skin would presumably have still burned Quirrell as well, and made V unable to physically touch him until the reembodiment potion. Still, I am beginning to agree with you that all the Potters were targeted for some reason (which I had temporarily ceased to believe after I first read the prophecy). Talisman continued: > 1)DD invoked the runic charm before the attack--that's why its > effect was seen as a consequence to the attack. If the charm is to > work: > 2) Lily has to die, there is no other candidate; > 3) Lily can't die fighting LV in any other context than willingly > throwing herself in front of Harry; > 4) Harry can't be allowed to be attacked if Lily isn't in front of > him; > 5) If you've come this far, you can't believe DD's going to leave it > all to chance. Annemehr now: 1)DD or Lily did it, but they were working together I think. 2 through 4)I can see that Lily may have been told to stay with Harry at all times while they were in hiding, especially if it was she who did the rune charm. Working back, listies *had* wondered before why Lily never used her wand. If she had been part of the planning all along, in case of the worst, DD may have told her that her wand would be useless to the rune charm, that she should defend Harry without one. Listies have also considered that Harry may be more powerful without *his* wand, so why not Lily? Maybe this has something to do with "ancient magic" and the wandless magic Harry (as any other wizard) does when pushed to extremes. 5)Do you mean that DD has arranged all this *in case* the Fidelius Charm fails? Or do you mean that he arranged for this very thing to happen, implying that he ensured the Fidelius Charm *would* fail? > > Annemehr wrote: > [Aside: If DD *is* choreographing things, he could have brought > Pettigrew to Voldemort's attention through his spy, Snape, and I've > no doubt he could have planted the "Pettigrew as unlikely secret- > keeper" seed with Sirius, too -- but that's not any proof.] > > Talisman replied: > Pettigrew had been LV's spy for over a year. (PoA 374) The Godric's > Hollow attack occurred "barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had > been performed [on Sirius]," (PoA 205), therefore likely only days > after the "switch" to Pettigrew. Pettigrew ran straight to his > master. Annemehr now: Are you agreeing with me then? The prophecy was given when Lily was pregnant (DD says, "shortly before [Harry's] birth" in ch.37 of OoP). As the Godric's Hollow attack happened when Harry was 15 months old, that does give DD some time to make plans, put V on to Pettigrew, and have Pettigrew establish himself as a spy for "over a year" before that Halloween. I'm not saying that's what I believe, just that it's possible. > Annemehr wrote: > Now, if this "protection at Privet Drive" business was so wonderful, > you could argue that DD hoped to be able to deploy it, but as far as > we can tell from OoP, Harry needs to be in the house to take > advantage of it. You yourself, in your second paragraph above, imply > this "protection" is not all it's claimed to be. > > Talisman replied: > I know, I need to get that D.O.L.L.A.R. Tbay post out. But "how > wonderful" (or not) the protection is, is a secondary question. Annemehr now: Well, just get your TBAY out when it's ready; it'll still probably be before book 6 comes out. ;) And the Privet Drive protection does seem to have deterred Voldemort, however potent it actually is, so it's certainly served a purpose, I suppose. As I wrote before: > On the other hand, this certainly doesn't seem to be Voldemort's > understanding. He certainly seems to know about the protection (but > how?) and believe in it, but he seems to think it applies to the > entire neighborhood; or else he's just scared of DD's guards and is > embarrassed to admit it. Why wouldn't he try an alleyway attack as > Delores Umbridge did? Did Dumbledore manage to feed him some (mis) > information somehow? > > Talisman replied: > Supposedly LV's been too weak until his re-bodification in GoF. Annemehr: Yes, but rather than the elaborate setup with the TWT, why not wait, what, a week or so, and attack Harry in Little Whinging? V seems to believe Harry *is* too well protected there, that he does need to get Harry to win the TWT (no small feat!) instead. I still wonder how V got that information and how much of it is correct. > Annemehr wrote: > I'm not sure this applies to anything else, but the spell is very > fortunately constructed for Voldemort. Three people are required -- > Father, Servant, and Enemy. Pick a servant, any servant: no problem. > > Talisman replied: > Can't agree with that. Vapormort was rather short on servants as he > languished in Albania. Especially ones DD would send him because > they have a blood debt to Harry Potter. Then there's Wormtail's > lovely proclivity for amputation. Annemehr now: >From V's point of view, as long as he had *any* servant who could take him to Little Hangleton, brew the potion, etc., then he had one potion ingredient to hand. It's not a very specific ingredient. > > Annemehr wrote: > Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy ingredient. > > Talisman replied: > Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too. (GoF 8-9; 656) But LV (and > DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it took > his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a plan > which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated. Annemehr now: Yes, V *wanted* to use Harry. Really, really, really badly. V believes he has certain advantages by using him. But, he didn't *need* him. > > Annemehr wrote: > But then he needs one very particular person: his father. Imagine if > a bit of soft tissue had been required ("EAR of the Father?" > Voldemort screeched. "How am I supposed to get EAR of the Father > NOW?") Shades of William "Bootstraps" Turner, there. > > Talisman replied in part: > He had been planning his LV role for some years by that time, and > may already have known he'd never need more than Daddy's bones. > Otherwise he would have canned something. Annemehr now: Talisman, that was supposed to be funny. That potion was a piece of ancient magic and included a piece of his father. I just thought it was lucky for V that it was a piece that lasts. -- You actually think he would have canned something? :-P > Then Talisman wrote: > (He had already insured that LV got his limb-chopping > servant back, and soon fixed it so he got Harry's (gleam) blood, as > well.) > > Annemehr replied: > See, I can see the possibility here. but I don't yet see that DD *alone* chose and brought > about this one *particular* course of events. Wouldn't sending Harry > to the graveyard be too much of a risk? How did he not nearly lose > him right there? > > Talisman replied to that: > I think there was as much protection at the graveyard as DD has had > in place any of the times he has pitted Harry against LV. > > 1) I don't think LV is referring to Snape as the one "has left me > forever," I do think it highly likely that Snape is there, under a > hood; Annemehr: As to that, I don't know. What protection could Snape have been? Could Snape have assured the wands would connect? Harry was nearly AKed! Talisman: > > 2) No one, not even DD, has said that _Priori Incantatum_ was > responsible for : > > a) H and LV rising into the air and gliding over to a place free of > graves (GoF 663); Annemehr: Yes, that always did seem weird. Talisman: > b) Phoenix song that gives H hope and strength; Annemehr: No, that I think *is* the wand connection. I think Priori Incantatum is only one result of the wand connection, and this is another. Talisman: > c) the "thousand" beam dome-web/light-cage that separates H/LV from > the DE's (663-64); Annemehr: All right, that is debatable. It's not as odd as floating away from the graves, though. Talisman: > d) the voice, " almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear" > that advises H (664); Annemehr: It's not a voice. It's the phoenix song, which was the sound he connected to DD and it was *almost* as though a friend was speaking in his ear. Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart, and strikes fear into the evil. And when Harry answered, he answered the *music.* Talisman: > e) and, it's one thing to see a victim regurgitated, but what was > with all the advice from the shadow/echos? Lily knew about the > portkey? James saying "when" to go? > > When Sirius asks, and DD explains the "effect," he only speaks of > the connection/spell regurgitation (GoF 697). If you think > everything is explained by the effect, you are assuming more than I > do. Annemehr: The Priori Incantatem effect is the important thing to DD. And, he was speaking in general about the effect of forcing brother wands to duel. Presumably, the effect would differ somewhat if brother Unicorn-hair wands connected. How do the "echoes" know what's going on? Presumably like photos or paintings do, although it *is* hard to see how they would recognize a portkey. Unless they were always in the wand and heard V taling about it. :-P > Annemehr wrote: > One last question. In GoF, ch. 36, when Harry is telling everything > that happened in the graveyard to DD and Sirius, we read : "The > wands connected?" [Sirius] said, looking from Harry to > Dumbledore. "Why?" > Harry looked up at Dumbledore again, on whose face there was an > arrested look. > "*Priori incantatem,*" he muttered. > > Dumbledore appears to have forgotten all about priori incantatem > until > that moment Talisman replied: > 1) I don't think "arrested" means surprised. Recall that we've just > seen DD recover from his momentary "gleam." My dictionaries suggest > such synonyms as "checked" or "restrained movement." [...] I think an arrested face is a > restrained face, a face where expression has been checked or > controlled. It is a poker face. > > DD shoots H a knowing look and when Sirius asks if Priori Incantatum > means the "reverse spell effect," DD says "Exactly." He doesn't > say "Great Merlin's Beard, that must be it!" Annemehr now: A poker face is a blank face. To me, the arrested look was when DD stopped to think. It's as if he'd just thought of a new implication of something and went within himself to consider it. He *muttered* the words "Priori incantatem" as if he'd just remembered about it, and was muttering to himself. And after all, one thing he never could have planned on is V and Harry shooting spells right at each other's wands so that the beams could connect. > > > > Annemehr wrote: > Anyway, I believe DD is up to something. I know we've been told only > a fraction of the truth. But, I'll need a lot of persuading if I'm > going to believe he's orchestrated *everything* since he heard that > danged prophecy! > > Talisman replied: > My dear, Harry (and Neville) were added to the plan when the first > prophecy came out. The plan is much older than that. Annemehr ::blinks:: It is? You know that? Huh? ::looks blank:: I always thought DD built that plan around "the one" in the prophecy... ...and I *still* don't know what the danged plan *is*! Annemehr tearing out hair (it rhymes!) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 6 10:19:49 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:19:49 -0000 Subject: a reason why lily didn't have to die.......... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82349 I really think that some users take Voldemort's words that Lily didn't have to die a bit to literally. He said something like "Step aside, silly girl", because Harry was his main target. My guess is, that he would have killed Lily anyway. Why should we believe anything he says? There was no need to kill her, if he really didn't want to. He could have stunned her and his way to Harry would have been free. Hickengruendler From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 6 10:55:36 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:55:36 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > > HG writes: > > What I see as more likely is that Harry was "marked as an equal" in > the graveyard scene, when Voldemort was mocking Harry, forcing him to > go through the motions of a duel. In that scene, even though it was > all in ridicule, Voldemort did indeed mark Harry as an equal. > > Kneazle responds: > > Yes, good show HG! > > In The GoF scene, Voldemort goes thru the motions of a formal duel, > even if it is in jest. A duel is, almost by definition, a fight > between equals. Voldemort bows to Harry and makes Harry bow to him. > > I don't think it was in jest. For an absolutely superb analysis of the graveyard scene you *must* read Pip's 'The Spying Game Part II - I want you to DIE, Mr Potter' post No. 40044. It's long, detailed and convincing. It may change your views. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 6 11:16:33 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 11:16:33 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > > I think you're missing something. Harry picked the orb up off the > shelf. If the prophecy had really been about Neville and not about > Harry, then Harry would have ended up in St Mungo's like Bode (I > think it was Bode who tried to get it under Voldy's command) did. It > was made clear that the prophesy orb could only be taken by the person > (s) the phophesy was about... then, and only then, could someone else > touch it. > > Tim I think you're missing an important point. Who englobes and puts the protective spells on the prophecies? The Ministry. Who has to interpret and decide who the prophecy is about? The Ministry. The protective spells are placed according to the perception of the DoM. When the prophecy arrived, they didn't know who it applied to. They're still not certain - they think it's *probably* Harry. And that's the way they've gone with the spells. The protective spells are not a property of the prophesy itself. As I stated in 79180, a prophesy doesn't care who reads it. That's a decision made by the Ministry who may, or may not, be right. Kneasy From chrissilein at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 11:41:37 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 11:41:37 -0000 Subject: Blood in the bottle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82352 Hi, this is a sentence which make me think. " an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, full of what Harry was quite sure was blood." OoP page 99, UK edition I highly doubt it was blood. I suppose it could be have been red wine, red liqueure or something like that. Is it an alcoholic drink instead? What do you think about it? I really wonder. Chrissi From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Mon Oct 6 12:05:18 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:05:18 -0000 Subject: Significance of Harry's blood in Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > Donna: > Ah, but you have to remember, I am a true believer in happy endings. > I would so hate it if Harry dies. It would be a tremendous let down > for me. > Jeff: Well, I *hope* it won't happen, but I somehow think that whatever happens in the end, while it might be happy, it won't be as happy as what we would really consider happy. Think of how all the previous books have ended. Yes, Harry wins, but always at some cost, and it looks like Jo always makes Harry pop back up at the station or the great hall just as an afterthought for the epilogue. Harry wins, but always seems the worse for the wear. What will he be like in the last book? Crippled? Missing a limb, an eye? Somehow I don't think he'll be totally unscathed. Donna: > I don't think that JKR has that in store for us. She will probably > have other characters that are dear to me die. She has said that she > wants children to see that there are pointless deaths, and that is > the reality of life. But to have Harry die? Then that negates the > prophesy (did I say that? Am I opening a whole 'nother can of > worms?). For it says that one of them will survive. > Jeff: Indeed. She's shown that in darn near every book. Somebody is killed or roughed up pretty bad. Who else will Harry lose? One of the trio to be sure. If Harry himself doesn't die, then either Ron or Hermione will, or at least be scarred in some way. Donna: > Now there's that pesky word "vanquish". Does it necessarily mean > that LV will die? I believe so. Most epic fantasy novels with > a "Dark Lord" have that character die in the end. Harry must be the > one to do it. Whether it is done with "malace aforethought" or as > the result of something inadvertantly done by Harry, remains to be > seen. > > At this point in the story, Harry is still a child. He is seeing > things pretty much as black and white. He will either be victim or > murderer. I don't think he understands the subtlety behind the > prophesy, yet. And because he is so introspective, at this point in > the story, this is not something he will share with Ron and Hermione > yet. As our story has unfolded so far, in the beginning, he pretty > much shared whatever he found out with R & H. As the story moved > along, he began to withhold things. > > I do hope book 7 will wrap up all those loose ends and we will see a > satisfactory conclusion. > I agree. As I see it, nobody *but* Harry can bring an end to all of this. DD is a great wizard, and if he's not murdered by some form of treachery, he'll be able to help Harry, maybe if he does die, he can also transfer some power to Harry to give him that edge he needs to win. Since Harry *is* still young, he won't have the experience of age to help him. He's rash and foolish now, and while he'll have his friends at his side, just as always, he'll have to face Voldie alone. I don't want to guess at it, but I'm sure that bodies will be all around him as this happens. It's true that Harry's behavoir has changed. He's still rather ignorant of RL, but he's slowly showing a change. Maybe he won't be as bad as his father appears in that one scene, but who can say how his link with Voldie will change him as time goes on? > D - who realizes that she has suddenly become long winded, when she > is basically a shy person. Jeff: Expressing your ideas about something doesn't make you long winded. Being compassionate about something is good. :) Jeff From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Oct 6 12:15:08 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:15:08 -0000 Subject: Does a prophecy have to be fulfilled? (Why is everyone so convinced ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82354 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > No. A prophecy must be fulfilled. The fact that it is heard and who > actually hears it is part of the conditions that set out its > fulfillment. In that way, it is no coincidence that it was DD that > heard the first prophecy and Harry that heard the second. The > prophecy *would not have happened* without the right set of > listeners. That of course includes the eavesdopper. For the >prophecy to be fulfilled, DD had to hear the entire thing, as he was >the best person around to help bring it about - and the spy had to >hear just enough of it to get Voldemort to act on it thereby sealing >his doom. > > It may sound like a circular argument, but it works somewhat like > the time turner in PoA. To save people in the present, their future > selves had to do the right things at the right time. In some > respects, the prophecy is a message from the future designed to set > in motion the right sequence of events to bring about what it > predicts. Jen: You make an interesting point here, comparing the Prophecy to the time turner. I totally agree that Dumbledore was somehow *chosen* to hear the 1st Prophecy, and that the process of fulfilling a Prophecy can be very different from what the listener expects. The part I continue to wonder about though, is whether a prophecy *has* to be fulfilled. Since you compared the Prophecy to the time turner, we have this remark from canon: "...Hasn't your experience with the Time-Turner taught you anything, Harry? The consequences of our actions are so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is very difficult, indeed....." (Dumbledore, POA chap. 21, p. 426). This indicates there are many (almost infinite) ways the future can play out. But if a Prophecy *must* be fulfilled, and a certain path *must* be taken, i.e. there has to be an eavesdropper who only hears the first part and Voldemort must act on that part, etc., then a person's choices along the way aren't required. It is a pre-ordained outcome. Besides negating the canon information we have about choice, this theory of prophecies also indicates that the fates (or whatever governs prophecies), have an opinion on the outcome--they determine a certain one to be *right*. If Voldemort needs to attempt to kill Harry to "seal his doom" as you said, then the fates aren't observers but participants who are actively trying to bring about LV's end. Now that's an option--JKR can make her fates do whatever she wants! But the choice factor is undermined if certain events have been prescribed by the future. Also, if all the prophecies at the MOM are certain of being fulfilled, why are they stored? I guess they could be safeguarding them, but if the future has already predicted the events that will take place to fulfill a prophecy, then there's no need to safeguard them. And they wouldn't be keeping results data if they are all fulfilled. How would that piece fit in? My opinion is that a Prophecy is made to a chosen person at the point a situation has reached "critical mass" --the time at which a Prophecy has the highest probability of coming true. A person's actions (or non-actions) can still interfere with the process of fulfillment. Now whether my opinion coincides with JKR's beliefs-- well let's say my predictive abilities are far below average so far! From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon Oct 6 12:17:49 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:17:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's growth References: Message-ID: <013701c38c03$dc204a00$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 82355 Some very late responses to replies to my post of last week . . . . Kneazle 255: > > Slytherins are Machiavellian. The end they seek is power, and they > will use any means to get it. Hermione's end is the trio's continued > survival. That is a key difference. IMO,using an evil person's greed > and lust for power against them is not morally ambivalent. I just > don't feel there is anything to excuse. > Hermione, of course, has many ambitions, and she has repeatedly shown herself willing to use whatever means is at her disposal to achieve them. And she does seek power in a sense, because by not consulting with others or seeking other opinions (except when she has second thoughts about the DA) she ensures that things are done *her* way, i.e., she seeks to control the agenda. In OOP she effectively takes control of Harry's life. This is power. However, the books raise a much larger and very troubling issue regarding the relationship between ambition and power. Most of the Slytherins we have seen *do* seem to seek power at all costs, and in GoF the hat says that "power-hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition." . Ambition does not always mean power, but JKR appears to equate the two by expressly connecting ambition to power-hungry Slytherin. > I think it is an interesting point when elfundeb says that Hermione > has a higher stake because she is muggleborn. In CoS, that was true, > at least until Diary!Tom decided to target Harry instead of > muggleborns. > > For me that is a telling point. Hermione has put herself in harm's > way over and over again not to protect herself, but because Harry is > in immediate danger. Voldemort has not been obsessing about killing > mudbloods. He has been and continues to obsess about killing Harry > Potter. > However, the basilisk continued to target muggleborns after Diary!Riddle set his sights on Harry. And at the time of the polyjuice-brewing episode, none of the Trio had any inkling that Harry was or would become the basilisk's prime target. In fact, Hermione hatches the polyjuice scheme just after Binns' lecture revealing Slytherin's unwillingness to teach muggleborns and the legend that the basilisk was there to rid the school of all those Slytherin thought unworthy to be taught magic. Gorda wrote: > Firstly I would like to point out/remind everyone that we only see Hermione > from Harry's POV, which is necessarily limited. I think Hermione probably felt > very bad about the whole centaur incident and the subsequent harm that > Grawp and the centaurs may have done to each other. In fact, JKR tells us > that right off the bat: > > p. 757 US edition: > "'You said you didn't hurt the innocent!' shouted Hermione, REAL tears sliding > down her face now." emphasis mine But when those real tears were sliding down her face, the innocents being threatened were herself and Harry, not the centaurs. and later, p. 759: > "'Oh no,' said Hermione, quaking so badly that her knees gave way. 'Oh, that > was horrible. And he might kill them all...'" > > Clearly, this is not an experience she's going to foget in a hurry. She did feel sorry for the centaurs, as this quote suggests. But her concern may have been tempered by Harry's reply, "I'm not that fussed, to be honest." And we don't know that her concern is not rooted in the fact that Hagrid left responsibility for Grawp with them. I'm not convinced that she hasn't placed the centaurs firmly in the same category where she's placed the goblins. From GoF, ch. 24: "'Worried about poor 'ickle goblins now, are you?' Ron asked Hermione. 'Thinking of starting up S.P.U.G. or something? Society for the Protection of Ugly Goblins?' 'Ha, ha, ha,' said Hermione sarcastically. 'Goblins don't need protection.'" There are creatures that need Hermione and there are creatures that don't. Only the former get her attention. Gorda, on jinxing the parchment: > It's not like they didn't know NOT to tell. P. 346: > "we all ought to agree not to shout about what we're doing. So if you sign, > you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge --or anybody else-- what we'reup to." > > Even if Hermione had told about the curse, Marietta may have decided that > the pimples still wouldn't be as bad as getting expelled and her mom losing > her job at the Ministry. The point was that the members needed to keep their > word, and Hermione was making sure there would be consequences if they > didn't. It's possible that Marietta would have plowed ahead even if she had been warned that there was a jinx on the parchment they signed. But it would have made her think very hard about it first had she known there were consequences. As it is, Hermione said only that they *agreed* not to tell Umbridge. So there appeared to be nothing underlying the agreement except the honor of the signers, leaving Marietta with the impression that she could get off scot-free. Kneazle wrote: > Well, I suppose Hermione can be seen as quite calculating sometimes. > However, I see it less as a Machiavellian/Slytherinesque quality and more as > a result of those keen analytical powers we have discussed. Her brain sees a > problem (Harry seen as liar and the MoM denying LV's return) and a set of > tools (Rita, Luna, The Quibbler), and it comes up with a solution (exclusive > interview). > As I see it, this is a good trait carried to excess. She sees a problem and a solution, but the people who can help her carry out her solution are, as you say, *tools* and not people. She is blind to everything else. Like the centaurs, other people become instruments of her will. She is using Luna every bit as much as she uses Skeeter. And, as David pointed out originally, even Harry, the person she's trying to help, is only a pawn in this business, since Hermione presumes to decide for Harry what he should do and when he should do it, without telling him in advance. I also don't see her as motivated by self-interest as much as you > propose. I think if she had been a pureblood she would still have brewed the > polyjuice potion in CoS and in general acted in the way she has thus far. She > genuinely cares for Harry, yes (whether you are a shipper or not), but she also > has a keen sense of right and wrong (thus her campaign for elf rights). The > greatest growth she has experienced int he books is that she can now tell the > difference between a greater Right and Wrong and the smaller right and > wrong of rules and regulations. She breaks the rules now because/when she > knows it is for a greater good. What about Rita Skeeter, though? Eric Oppen (I think it was Eric) suggested a long time ago that Hermione's blackmail of Rita Skeeter would come back to haunt her. This is perhaps the prime example of Hermione using any means to achieve her ends. There was no need for Hermione to blackmail Rita; why didn't she turn Rita in and expose her? Yes, Harry benefited from the silencing of Rita, but Hermione had a personal vendetta against her which really took off when Rita's Witch Weekly article resulted in people sending her bobotuber pus in the mail. From GoF ch. 28: "'At least your fingers aren't full of pus.' Hermione was having a lot of difficulty managing her knife and fork, her fingers were so stiff and swollen. 'I hate that Skeeter woman!" she burst out savagely. 'I'll get her back for this if it's the last thing I do.'" Once again, there were personal motivations behind her actions, but it's obscured because Rita's target was Harry. Gorda: > Well, if Hermione has a tragic flaw, I don't know that shielding rather than > partnering with her friends is one. (This may much more apply to Molly, who > needs to quit s/mothering and start treating her kids including Harry more as > adults). I am more inclined to think that Hermione needs to connect more with > her emotions than be ruled by logic and ethics, which can only take you so > far. I think she can be forgiven for bossing her friends around (Goodness > knows, they need it sometimes!). [snip]> > What Hermione needs to learn is that "cool use of intellect" only goes so far in > taking her where she needs to go, just like Harry needs to learn that playing > the hero is not Actually, I said that her failure to work in partnership with others is how her flaw will manifest itself. The flaw itself is her extreme overconfidence (which, as you point out, derive from her reliance on her intellectual skills) and unwillingness or inability to consider others' point of view. She presumes to know what's best for others instead of working with them. To go back to the beginning, I started analyzing Hermione's weaknesses in the first place because I felt that her amazing successes in OOP verged on MarySueism. To me, her flaws humanize her and make her a more likeable character. But even after all this analysis, I still can't get over those MarySue feelings. In the real world, even a thinker as brilliant as Hermione would fail with much greater frequency than she did in OOP. The only possible explanation I can come up with is that JKR is building up her overconfidence to prepare us for an enormous mistake in book 6 or 7. And these flaws are the key to that happening. I found it quite interesting to learn this week that eihwaz, which JKR uses to represent defence, is in fact associated with the yew, a symbol of death that appears in the Little Hangleton graveyard where Voldemort is resurrected. And ehwaz, or partnership, is a unifying concept. Debbie Something else I noticed this week was what happened to Hermione in the Department of Mysteries (where everything seems to be a metaphor) just before she is hit by Dolohov's curse: "Hermione smashed into a bookcase and was promptly deluged in a cascade of heavy books." I think we're being reminded here that Hermione's book-learning and logic can only take one so far. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 6 10:05:21 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:05:21 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: <20031006001400.79141.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KIM MACKLIN wrote: Kim: > > On Page 13 OoP it reads "So who've you been beating up tonight? Harry asked, his grin fading. Another ten-year-old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago--" > > I think this may be an important. You know how JKR slips things in and they are very hard to find. There seem to be many neighbors in the Privet Drive area who live double lives, or seem to be hiding. I know it has been said Harry has no living relatives, but that does not seem logical. Also, if this Mark Evans is 10 years old now, he should be 11 for the next book. Who knows, maybe he will show up at Hogwarts? Geoff: When I first joined the group a few months ago, there were quite a lot of posts at the time involving him; I had overlooked the commonality of names when I first read it. Being, like you, puzzled, I entered "Mark Evans" into the Search Archive and got a long string of post references. That might be a good start point. It would be quite fun if Harry discovered that he had a cousin or similar at the school! From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 6 12:35:43 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:35:43 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: <20031006001400.79141.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82357 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, KIM wrote: > On Page 13 OoP it reads "So who've you been beating up tonight? Harry asked, his grin fading. Another ten-year-old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago--" > > I think this may be an important. You know how JKR slips things > in and they are very hard to find. As well as his surname, I'm fascinated by Mark's first name. 'Mark'. He isn't marked by a scar, but by a name. After all, Harry could so easily have been nicknamed 'Mark' Potter. And Mark is beaten up by Dudley, just as Harry was. And has Harry's mother's name as his surname. Is 'Mark Evans' a mirror of 'Harry Potter'? Pip From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Mon Oct 6 07:40:14 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:40:14 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] the reintroduction of Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031006185517.00a3dec0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82358 At 19:38 5/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Sorry if anyone has wondered on this before. I was wondering if maybe >Firenze has been reintroduced NOW because Centaurs can interpret the >stars and prophecies and that sort of thing. I don't recall seeing >him since the first book, and so why now, 4 books later, does he >suddenly reappear, teaching Divination? I can envision in scene in >which Harry, desperate to understand, tells Firenze the prophecy. >Firenze may interpret it differently than DD, and may be the one to >finally enlighten Harry (and all of us!) as to what it really means, >possibly catalyzing future events? But then again, even Centaurs can >be wrong... > >Allie Firenze, I feel is going to be an interesting character. If he is told, his response will be very interesting. However what is in my mind is his status with the other Centaurs, how or if that can be resolved. One other thing that struck me was the sculpture in MOM of the creatures, Centaurs included looking up adoringly at the wizarding couple. That seems to be the pecking order that MOM fancies. Bet it will have to change lots if there is to be a blending of forces to fight LV. Tanya From historygrrl1 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 00:01:46 2003 From: historygrrl1 at yahoo.com (historygrrl1) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:01:46 -0000 Subject: Why the Wait in the Kitchen? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82359 > > OOP, ch. 22, pg. 474: > > "There was a flash of flame in the very middle of the office, leaving > behind a single golden feather that floated gently to the floor. > > "'It is Fawkes's warning,' said Dumbledore, catching the feather as > it fell. 'She (Umbridge) must know you're out of your beds...Minerva, > go and head her off -- tell her any story -- '" > > > Umbridge, the mouthpiece to the Minister of Magic, knew they were > gone before they even left Hogwarts' grounds. And you can bet Fudge > heard about it before they touched down in Sirius's kitchen. > > So, then -- why the big speech by Sirius? The mere fact that they > were all standing there in front of him should have let him know that > everyone already knew that the children knew, "seconds after it > happened..." If this could seriously damage -- anything -- to do > with the Order, why did Dumbledore whisk them away like that? It was > end of term -- all he would have had to have done would have been to > wait until the next day and everyone could have left without raising > the first eyebrow. They were receiving almost minute-by-minute > reports from the travelling portraits, Everard and especially Dilys, > so they didn't have to sit and worry without any news. > > I know that when a loved-one is hurt you want to be at their side as > quickly as possible, but it just seems that Dumbleodre was a bit rash > in sending everyone off in the middle of the night like that, > especially with so much at stake. > > This whole sequence of events did not make sense to me. Can anyone > help un-addle my brain? > > Thanks, > Bohcoo I don't know that this will un-addle anyone, but it made sense to me. Umbrige is a) a meddler b) opposed to most everything Dumbledore does c) a ministry sycophant d) highly immoral - and while Dumbledore may not be completely aware of all her actions, he probably does have some notion that she's not a principled individual. I think that Dumbledore sent the Weasleys and Harry off ASAP so that she couldn't get to them. If Umbridge had arrived on the scene in DD's office, seen the children there, and heard the story of Harry's dream, she would have tried to prevent their departure. If she succeeded, she might then have prevented them from getting further news from DD during the remaining 1-2 days before the holidays began. Furthermore, Umbridge would then have known the whole story, rather than just what Dumbledore chose to reveal. That could have compromised the secrecy of the Order. I'm guessing entirely without proof that DD told Umbridge that he sent Harry and the Weasleys to the Burrow. (She probably protested his sending them at all, as she doesn't believe Harry, and his sending Harry along, as he is not a family member.) DD could have claimed that he got the info from one of the portraits after Harry arrived in his office following his nightmare. So the children's arrival at St. Mongo's before and without Molly would have looked very suspicious. I agree, though, that Sirius's speech is a little...weird. -Ellen historygrrl1 at yahoo.com From morgan.cole at nf.sympatico.ca Mon Oct 6 12:46:20 2003 From: morgan.cole at nf.sympatico.ca (T.J.) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:46:20 -0000 Subject: Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82360 I've been running through a little list in my head...trying to think through who's likely to be dead and who's likely to be alive by the end of Book 7. My personal belief (I know others disagree) is that JKR still sees HP basically as a series of young-adult (not children's) novels, and is somewhat (though ont entirely) bound by the conventions of that genre, so that although there will be deaths in order to demonstrate the total evil of Voldemort and company, there will not be a wholesale mass slaughter of the "good" wizards, to the extent that the future will seem bleak at the end. So, basically I think there will be 2, possibly 3 more deaths of significant characters, but I'm trying to work out who's likely to die and who will survive. Anyone else care to join me in betting on the names on this list (or adding other names I've forgotten about)? Harry- Survives. I'm 100% certainly JKR is not going to kill off the main character. Hermione -- Survives. 99% certain. Ron -- Survives...I think. But I'm only about 60-70% certain. Ron is my favourite character and I do sometimes wake up at 4 a.m. with bleak thoughts and think that Ron might be killed off. I don't think it's likely, but it could happen. Dumbledore-- Dead, Dead, Dead. I'm 100% certain DD will not be alive at the end of Book 7, having died heroically to save Harry/the world/whatever. Hagrid--Survives...I think. But I'd say I'm only about 50-60% sure of this. All the pre-OOP predictions I had seen about who was going to die had the money on Hagrid. He is such a universal favourite I'm still a little concerned he may be a sacrificial lamb. Neville Longbottom--Dead. 80% certain. Neville is being groomed for a larger part in the series, with his role in the prophecy and his growing strength of character. I'm quite certain there will not be more than one Hogwarts student die in the series--I don't see JKR killing off too many younger characters. I'd say most likely Neville will be the only other student to die, again (like DD) heroically, but if he survives, then Ron won't. It's one or the other as far as I can see. Snape--Survives. But I'm only giving this about a 70% certainty. I could see him getting killed off. Draco--Survives. You can't kill his kind. I hope his father goes down in a big way, but I'm not counting him as a major character. Everyone else I can think off offhand--all the rest of the Weaseleys, the Dursleys, other Hogwarts students, Remus Lupin...I confidently expect to survive. I'd love to know other people's thoughts on who's going to make it and who's going to bite the big one. tj From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 6 12:54:57 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:54:57 -0000 Subject: Wormtail - parallels with Wormtongue? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031006185517.00a3dec0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82361 It's odd how ideas creep up on you unexpectedly. While shaving in the bathroom this morning, I was whiling away the time thinking about the end of LOTR and also what might happen finally in HP. I was mulling over the fact that, without the aid of Gollum, Frodo would probably not have completed the quest and also the fact that he came back from Mordor in one piece ? although scarred physically and mentally ? but still able to return to the Shire although his wounds ultimately led him to forsake Middle-Earth and take ship with the Elves to Valinor. Abruptly, a thought arrived out of the blue. I wonder whether Jo Rowling is familiar with Tolkien because I suddenly found myself looking at two characters with similar names, Peter Pettigrew (aka Wormtail) and Grima son of Galmod (aka Wormtongue). There are interesting similarities. Both were at one time trusted; PP was the friend of James, Remus and Sirius while Grima was the trusted counsellor of King Theoden. Both were small and - dare I suggest? ? wimpish; PP: "He was a very short man, hardly taller than Harry . His skin looked grubby . and something of the rat lingered around his pointed nose, his very small, watery eyes " Grima: "At his feet upon the steps sat a wizened figure of a man with a pale wise face and heavy-lidded eyes". Both were traitors; PP betrayed the Potters, Grima betrayed King Theoden and hence the kingdom of Rohan because they had each thrown in their lot with a powerful and evil wizard ? Voldemort or Saruman. I am not suggesting in any way that JKR is plagiarising, but no writer produces material in a vacuum and our thoughts and imaginations are influenced either openly or subconsciously by things we read, see or hear. Perhaps I am misreading the signs but it is interesting to extrapolate the idea. In the end of LOTR, Saruman is killed by Wormtongue who in turn is killed. Folk have suggested that Wormtail might have a part to play in the end of the HP saga; I wonder if there are any parallels with the other "worm's" demise (regardless of that damned prophecy!!)? Geoff From abush at maine.rr.com Mon Oct 6 00:22:39 2003 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:22:39 -0000 Subject: who calls Voldie the "Dark Lord" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82362 I agree with others that some don't stop to think, or it is force of habit (like Snape). As for Phineas Nigellus, not only was he in a family of dark wizards (being Sirius' ancestor), but was also a Slytherin, wearing the house badge as described in his portrait. So...since the Sorting Hat and DD are concerned about unity between the houses, does anyone think that Slytherin may eventually split from the other houses in loyalty? kylie From abush at maine.rr.com Mon Oct 6 00:31:39 2003 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:31:39 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore infallible? (was: Re: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82363 I was quite taken with deemarie's comment that DD is not god (in discussion about choice of the Potter's secret keeper). We have seen Dumbledore make a huge mistake in not telling the whole truth to Harry earlier. So what other mistakes may be in store in the future from our wise and powerful (yes, I still love him) Dumbledore? kylie From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon Oct 6 14:36:06 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:36:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a reason why lily didn't have to die.......... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6B70BE01-F80A-11D7-A21B-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 82364 > Hickengruendler: > I really think that some users take Voldemort's words that Lily > didn't have to die a bit to literally. He said something like "Step > aside, silly girl", because Harry was his main target. My guess is, > that he would have killed Lily anyway. Why should we believe anything > he says? There was no need to kill her, if he really didn't want to. > He could have stunned her and his way to Harry would have been free. > Actually, I think the quote that has more relevance to this topic occurs on page 294 of PS/SS, American Edition: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ "How touching..." it hissed. "I always value bravery...Yes, boy, your parents were brave...I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was trying to protect you...Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ And then, of course, there are Dumbledore's assertions that Harry's protection came from his mother *sacrificing* her life for him out of love. I'm not exactly sure where I stand on all this, especially since the only reason I can think of for Voldie to spare Lily has "Property of the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS" written all over it. However, I think it is at *least* strong implied in the books that Lily *chose* to die in order to save Harry. Laura (who really ought to be writing a physics lab right now.) P.S. Voldemort values bravery? *blinks* What gives? From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 6 14:31:26 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:31:26 -0000 Subject: why only James had to die In-Reply-To: <2f.3fbcce35.2cb21c9f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > Sherrie (that's me) adds: > > Additionally, the prophecy specifies that it would be a child born > at a specific time - so any child born at any time other than the end of > July, 1980, wouldn't qualify to fulfill it. Geoff: Not necessarily. The prophecy does NOT specifically say 1980. It could have been a later year... The prophecy does not have a sell-by date on it. :-) From morgan.cole at nf.sympatico.ca Mon Oct 6 12:59:07 2003 From: morgan.cole at nf.sympatico.ca (T.J.) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:59:07 -0000 Subject: AS Byatt and the "other" Potters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82366 I searched the archives to see if there was much discussion here on the infamous A.S. Byatt article in which she slammed J.K. Rowling and all the HP readers. I did find a few comments in response to that (appropriately indignant), but so far I haven't found anyone, here or anywhere else, who's pointed out something that seems rather sinister to me. Has anyone else reflected on the fact that A.S. Byatt has written a four-book series about the life and times of a character named Frederica Potter and her family? Does no-one but me think this has sinister significance? Doesn't it suggest there are two branches of the Potter family, and that Byatt, as the official chronicler of the Muggle branch, harbours a certain understandable but petty resentment against the sudden fame and popularity of the wizard Potters, upon whom Frederica and the other Potters have probably always looked down a bit? I actually had quite an elaborate fanfic story worked out in my head to explain the connection between the two lots of Potters which would make it quite clear why Byatt is so disdainful of the wizarding Potters. My story would also give the surprising background on Harry's paternal grandparents and provide quite a satisfying storyline for those who think there should be more gay content in the Harry Potter books. However, after I'd worked out this story in all its elaborate detail, it occurred to me that I was probably one of only about four people in the universe who had read BOTH A.S. Byatt's novels about Frederica Potter AND J.K. Rowling's novels about Harry Potter...so the audience of people who'd actually appreciate my fanfic would be quite limited. On the other hand, it occurred to me that one of the other three people in this elite group had probably already written a better fanfic than I on the subject (though I haven't found it yet!) Any thoughts on this from people who have actually read both series?? tj From rose at swicegood.com Mon Oct 6 14:46:39 2003 From: rose at swicegood.com (roseswicegood) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:46:39 -0000 Subject: Wormtail - parallels with Wormtongue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > It's odd how ideas creep up on you unexpectedly. While shaving in the > bathroom this morning, I was whiling away the time thinking about the > end of LOTR and also what might happen finally in HP. I was mulling > over the fact that, without the aid of Gollum, Frodo would probably > not have completed the quest and also the fact that he came back from > Mordor in one piece ? Just a bit snipped Harry Potter 'saga' or 'journey' if you will, is a quest of its own, (IMO) I read somewhere that writers have about 6 'plots' to choose from, and that Shakespeare used them all, which means we are all plagerizing. :-} Just a bit more snipped. >> Wormtail might have a part to play in the end of the HP saga; I > wonder if there are any parallels with the other "worm's" demise > (regardless of that damned prophecy!!)? > > Geoff Perhaps, if it doesn't interfere with Harry's quest. He has all the attributes of a knight. Using 'wormtail' for PP is brilliant, IMO, because it definitely sets the tone JKR wanted to establish. For those who have never read LOR, worms are still considered nature's lowest lifeform. PP got the lowest reserved for any Judas, the tail! Rose From urghiggi at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 16:02:17 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:02:17 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82369 > Geoff wrote: > When I first joined the group a few months ago, there were quite a > lot of posts at the time involving [mark evans]; I had overlooked the > commonality of names when I first read it. Being, like you, puzzled, > I entered "Mark Evans" into the Search Archive and got a long string > of post references. That might be a good start point. > > It would be quite fun if Harry discovered that he had a cousin or > similar at the school! urghiggi replied: T'would be fun, but t'ain't cannon. Ddore tells Harry point blank in OoP that Petunia is Lily's "only living relative." (Or at the very least that Petunia was Lily's only living relative at the time of the Harry hand-off.) So how can Mark Evans (and, relevant to some wilder theories, Severus Snape) be related to Harry? But it's strange that JKR chose this name, if not. Red herring? Author throwing around names she likes/Flinty selection of names? (Boy, I know no one here is going to want to believe THAT.) Clearly JKR can't have Mark be related to HP IF she wants to preserve the idea that Ddore's statements can be trusted to be correct. If HP and Mark Evans are blood relatives, then Ddore is just flat-out wrong in the statement above ... so if she wants to imply that, and validate theories about Ddore's fallibility and hidden agendas, then perhaps Mark WILL emerge as a relative. One other "out" I've seen proposed, that ostensibly would allow Mark to be related AND allow Ddore's credibility to remain intact, is the interp that Petunia WAS the only living relative at the time Harry was turned over to the Durselys and that Mark was born later (which of course he would have to have been, given his age). But for Mark to be a living relative, then one of his PARENTS, who surely were around at that time, also has to be a living relative, which blows up the argument.... Then again -- Dudley Dursley was born a month before Harry, apparently, and so at the time of the hand-off he, too, was a "living relative" of Lily Potter (unless he's Vernon's love child with someone other than Petunia). Now -- did the fact that Ddore didn't mention this mean anything (like, Ddore's really not to be trusted to be accurate/truthful)? Or did it just mean that, as an infant, Dudley certainly couldn't be a potential party for useful employment of the blood-charm, and thus wasn't worth mentioning? But if that's the case, are there OTHER Evanses out there who weren't suitable, and thus not mentioned? In which case, Mark could certainly be related somehow. Lots of questions, no answers -- classic JKR. urghiggi, Chgo From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 16:02:44 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:02:44 -0000 Subject: Blood in the bottle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" Message 82352 wrote: > Hi, > this is a sentence which make me think. > > " an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, > full of what Harry was quite sure was blood." OoP page 99, UK edition > > I highly doubt it was blood. Why do you doubt it was blood? There 'are' vampires in the HP world. "K" From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 16:25:34 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: <013701c38c03$dc204a00$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20031006162534.79177.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82371 Debbie wrote: Something else I noticed this week was what happened to Hermione in the Department of Mysteries (where everything seems to be a metaphor) just before she is hit by Dolohov's curse: "Hermione smashed into a bookcase and was promptly deluged in a cascade of heavy books." I think we're being reminded here that Hermione's book-learning and logic can only take one so far. My reply: Are you implying that Hermione is not a competent witch. I think that she is more than competent in her magical abilities. I think it is obvious that she is a good witch in addition to being logical and booksmart. However, she knows perfectly well that she isn't as strong as Harry and that it is not her battle to fight as evident at the end of SS. However, I believe Hermione, as everyone else around Harry, is going to continue to support and help him as much as possible. But they all know in the end it's going to be all Harry. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Oct 6 16:46:28 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:46:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: <20031006162534.79177.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031006162534.79177.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <67231425506.20031006094628@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 82372 Hi, Monday, October 06, 2003, 9:25:34 AM, Melanie wrote: > Are you implying that Hermione is not a competent witch. > I think that she is more than competent in her magical abilities. Im my opinion, Hermione is great in the classroom, and outstanding in remembering spells and incantations. Theory is no problem for her. She loves researching and figuring out mysteries. When it comes to using her magical abilities under pressure, away from tests and the classroom, I'm not convinced she is as competent. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 16:54:04 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031006165404.64745.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82373 TJ wrote: Harry- Survives. I'm 100% certainly JKR is not going to kill off the main character. Mela's reply: I tend to agree, but not because Harry is the main character but because I do not think that she would put that much emphasis on Harry being the boy who lived only to kill him off at age 17, maybe I'm wrong though. TJ:Hermione -- Survives. 99% certain. My reply: One of the trio is going to die, who I am not sure. I doubt it's HErmione though she's too smart to die. She's also too important to the plot. TJ:Ron -- Survives...I think. But I'm only about 60-70% certain. Ron is my favourite character and I do sometimes wake up at 4 a.m. with bleak thoughts and think that Ron might be killed off. I don't think it's likely, but it could happen. My reply: Nobody wants their favorite character to die, I know I personally didn't want Sirius to die. But that's the way it goes. I think Ron will end up dying in some sort of sacrifice. Not sure about that though. TJ:Dumbledore-- Dead, Dead, Dead. I'm 100% certain DD will not be alive at the end of Book 7, having died heroically to save Harry/the world/whatever. My reply: That's interesting and while I tend to agree I agree less with that now than I did before OOP. I thought for sure Dumbledore would die in this book, but alas I was really wrong. I am not sure about him anymore. I actually think he will probably end up alive, you know how some books the only one that survives is the one who seemed to be likely to go first. TJ wrote: Hagrid--Survives...I think. But I'd say I'm only about 50-60% sure of this. All the pre-OOP predictions I had seen about who was going to die had the money on Hagrid. He is such a universal favourite I'm still a little concerned he may be a sacrificial lamb. My reply: I"m a bit confused with what the hell Hagrid is offering to the plot anymore. So he's axed. But my luck he'll be the sole survivor *i really do not like him, sorry!* TJ: Neville Longbottom--Dead. 80% certain. Neville is being groomed for a larger part in the series, with his role in the prophecy and his growing strength of character. I'm quite certain there will not be more than one Hogwarts student die in the series--I don't see JKR killing off too many younger characters. I'd say most likely Neville will be the only other student to die, again (like DD) heroically, but if he survives, then Ron won't. It's one or the other as far as I can see. My reply: No, no, no. Neville will survive. Why? I just can't see it happening. He's going to grow up and marry Ginny! TJ: Snape--Survives. But I'm only giving this about a 70% certainty. I could see him getting killed off. My reply: He'll die towards the end of the books. I do not see him dying before the end mainly because of importance he serves plotwise. Could you imagine Hogwarts with Snape? TJ:Draco--Survives. You can't kill his kind. I hope his father goes down in a big way, but I'm not counting him as a major character. My reply: You said it. Beautiful. TJ:Everyone else I can think off offhand--all the rest of the Weaseleys, the Dursleys, other Hogwarts students, Remus Lupin...I confidently expect to survive. I'd love to know other people's thoughts on who's going to make it and who's going to bite the big one. tj MY reply: I'm praying about Lupin surviving but I think it is possible he could die. One clearly forgotten character is Pettigrew, I believe he will die saving Lupin or Harry in the end. And somebody in the blasted Weasley family has to die. LOL They are far too big. And it's not going to Percy because who would care. I know I personally would not. I'd be happy. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 16:54:58 2003 From: sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com (sarcasticmuppet) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:54:58 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > Then what about Harry's paternal grandparents, the Potters? Before > OoP, many thought that Voldemort felt the need to wipe that family > out, that the prophecy had something to do with a Potter being his > downfall. Many of us thought that's why Sirius accused Wormtail of > delivering "the last of the Potters" to Voldemort when he was made > Secret Keeper (in the Shrieking Shack). After reading the prophecy I > thought I had been wrong to think this. > > But now, I'm not so sure. Okay, so the *prophecy* would not lead > Voldemort to go after the whole Potter line, but maybe Sirius knew > something else. Maybe there was something about the Potters that > would make Voldemort go after Harry as the one spoken of in the > prophecy. Then again maybe all the Potters were active in the > resistance to Voldemort and died in the fight. Is there any other > hint to all the Potters being targeted besides Sirius' words in the > Shack in PoA? > > Annemehr now me (sarcasticmuppet): This might shed a new light on this theory: In OotP, sometime when Sirius is discussing the family tree (don't have a copy with me, sorry) he says that he ran away and stayed with the Potters when he was fifteen or so. He also says something along the lines of "Even after I graduated, The Potters always welcomed me over for Sunday Lunch." Could someone with canon confirm or correct me on that? At least one of James's parents was still alive when the marauders graduated. I could be wrong, but I think this tidbit is important to any theorized timelines of before Voldemort's fall. --sarcasticmuppet-- From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 6 17:02:04 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:02:04 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82375 > urghiggi wrote: > Ddore tells Harry point blank in OoP that > Petunia is Lily's "only living relative." (Or at the very least > that Petunia was Lily's only living relative at the time of the > Harry hand-off.) So how can Mark Evans (and, relevant to some > wilder theories, Severus Snape) be related to Harry? > Clearly JKR can't have Mark be related to HP IF she wants to > preserve the idea that Ddore's statements can be trusted to be > correct. If HP and Mark Evans are blood relatives, then Ddore is > just flat-out wrong in the statement above ... so if she wants to > imply that, and validate theories about Ddore's fallibility and hidden agendas, then perhaps Mark WILL emerge as a relative. > > Or did it just mean that, as an infant, > Dudley certainly couldn't be a potential party for useful > employment of the blood-charm, and thus wasn't worth mentioning? > But if that's the case, are there OTHER Evanses out there who > weren't suitable, and thus not mentioned? In which case, Mark > could certainly be related somehow. Pip!Squeak: I think the last one is it. We have this tendency to forget Hermione's early statement in PS/SS ' A lot of the greatest wizards haven't an ounce of logic.' [Ch. 16, p. 207] So we keep taking statements *logically* when we should be thinking *magically*. Voldemort is Slytherin's last living descendant. Magically, that is - he is the only descendant who *knows* he's a descendant. There may be other genetic descendants wandering around, but for the purpose of being able to use their inheritance from Slytherin, they just don't count. So, to the magical mind, they don't exist. Nobody after Voldemort will be able to claim they are Heir of Slytherin. Therefore, Slytherin has no other descendants. [If you have a copy of CoS which says 'ancestor', it's an official mistake. It should read 'descendant'.] Similarly, for the purposes of the protection spell: as far as I can work out, Dumbledore needed someone who a) knew they were related to Lily b) knew what a spell was c) could consent to the spell. So Dudley simply doesn't count. He's too young for all three - he wouldn't know about Lily (he's probably so young he'd not know what a 'relation' was), he doesn't know what a spell is, and he wouldn't understand what was being asked of him even if Petunia had read out the letter to him. Petunia is at this point probably the only person left alive in the whole world who can satisfy a), b) and c). The Evans's living down the road have never heard of magic, and might not know that Mr Evans is Mrs Dursley's distant cousin. They don't exist. Magically, that is. When you're setting up the spell, you don't consider them, so they have no *effective* existence. So Dumbledore can happily talk about Petunia as Lily's only remaining relative, even though we know (from our logical viewpoint) that Petunia *wasn't* the only remaining relative. To Dumbledore's mind, Dudley couldn't seal the charm, and so he doesn't exist. Harry is the subject of the charm, so he doesn't exist as a relative even though he's Lily's *son*, for goodness sake! Petunia *is* the only relative. For the purpose of the charm. Agatha Christie has her detective Miss Marple frequently remark that she never believes what people *say*. Unless there is objective evidence to back it up, don't believe it. Same applies in the Potterverse, IMO. Don't believe what people *say*. Firstly, there's the possibility that they're lying. Secondly, there's also the possibility that what you think they mean and what they think they mean are not the same thing at all. Pip!Squeak From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Oct 6 17:21:15 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:21:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag - PROFESSOR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > How could Lupin be a Professor? (snip) > Being in a situation like Remus, a person has two choices; 1) become a > hopelessly depressed alcoholic, or 2) make productive use of your vast > amounts of free time. I think Lupin chose route number two. > instead of hiding in the > woods getting drunk every night, Lupin stays home with is mother and > studies. He reads books, he write reports, he does magical research, > etc.... (snip) > For example, the International Confederation of Wizards might have an > academic review committee. Wizards submit papers and give > presentations of their research, and the review committee of qualified > wizards determines the merit of this magical research. > > Once you have established a certain degree of proficiency and working > knowledge in the field of magic, the review committee is empowered to > grant academic titles such as Professoriate and Doctoriate which would > grant the person the right to use the titles 'Professor' and 'Doctor' > of Magic. > > I feel that this type of academic advancement is very consitent with > image the wizard world we are presented. (snip) > > I certainly can't prove any of that, .....(snip) Carolyn: Steve, I can help you with two bits of canon on this ! In FB, as a footnote to the werewolf entry it says: 'For a heartrending account of one wizard's battle with lycanthropy, see the classic 'Hairy Snout, Human Heart' by an anonymous author (Whizz Hard Books, 1975)'. However, I have to say, the book doesn't sound very academic ! On the existence of a WW scholarly research community, see PoA, beginning of Leaky Cauldron chapter 'Harry ate breakfast...venerable- looking wizards arguing over the latest article in Transfiguration Today'. From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 17:26:03 2003 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:26:03 -0000 Subject: AS Byatt and the "other" Potters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82377 | | | | "Still Life" spoiler space | | | Hi All, --- In HPforGrownups "T.J." wrote: > I was probably one of > only about four people in the universe who had read BOTH A.S. Byatt's > novels about Frederica Potter AND J.K. Rowling's novels about Harry > Potter...so the audience of people who'd actually appreciate my > fanfic would be quite limited. On the other hand, it occurred to me > that one of the other three people in this elite group had probably > already written a better fanfic than I on the subject (though I > haven't found it yet!) > > Any thoughts on this from people who have actually read both series?? I loved both series, but unfortunately I don't have many parallels. I'd love to read any you've come up with (either in the form of fanfic or as a straight post). The only obvious thing is that Lilly = Stephanie, since they both die. But Stephanie's electrocuted rather than AKed. But we should go back to look for any reference to green around Stephanie's death in Still Life. But James was no priest (as Stephanie's husband is). I also cannot remember what becomes of Stephanie's son? Then there's the fantasy novel within the novel Babel Tower. That was a "fable portrays a sexually uninhibited utopia that evolves into a masochistic and totalitarian dystopia" which does sound more like fanfic than life at Hogwarts! I thought Babel Tower was the weakest of the quartet. She's at her best when writing about all the Potter's (imho). In a funny way there's another similarity between JKR and Byatt, in that they are both now scorned by many serious academics. JKR because she's too popular and lightweight, and Byatt because she's too heavy-handed with the theoretical stuff. I enjoyed the last one in the quartet, A Whistling Woman, much more than many of my more literary friends, partly because I missed all the theoretical references. Sorry ? not much of a reply. Do post the parallels or theories that you've teased out of the two series. Cheers, Dumbledad. From siriuskase at earthlink.net Mon Oct 6 17:29:30 2003 From: siriuskase at earthlink.net (Sirius Kase) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:29:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Contest to Rename the Former Humongous Bigfile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82378 I went to the polls, but my choice isn't there. I don't know how to add it. Could someone please add it to the list? My choice is VIP Notes, that is (Very Important Posting Notes). Maybe not very cute, but it would get MY attention. Sirius Kase On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:22 AM, elfundeb2 wrote: > Greetings from Hexquarters! > > Many of you may have noticed that file which we send to all new > members, containing our posting guidelines and other useful > information (formerly the Humongous Bigfile), has the curious > title "[insert new title here]". > > Many older members may also recall that when the new, slimmed-down > not-so-humongous guidelines were introduced, nominations were > solicited for a new title, and we promised to hold a renaming contest. > > At long last, the contest is here! Please go to the polls section to > review the nominees and vote for your favorite. > > The poll will remain open for two weeks. At the conclusion of the > poll, the winning entry and the member who proposed it will be > announced. The contest winner will receive an award for Special > Services to the School, which will be kept in the trophy room and > polished regularly by the list elves. > > Debbie Elf > for the list admin team > > > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material > from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 6 17:55:22 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:55:22 -0000 Subject: shows from the CTW (filks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82379 It's children's literature, right? So we need some children's shows...and where do we find the best? The CTW of course (that's the Children's Television for Wizards, not to be confused with the Children's Television Workshop in the muggle world). I Curse You (Malfoy's Theme) based on "I Love You" (Barney's Theme) I curse you You curse me We're a curs-ed family With a big, bad spell and a hex from me to you Won't you say you curse me too? Grimmauld Place Theme based on "Sesame Street Theme" Cloudy day The Summer has gone away On my way To where the Order stays Can you tell me how to get How to get to Grimmauld Place? Cloudy day Nothin' goes just my way Scary portraits there I can't seem to erase Can you tell me how to get How to get to Grimmauld Place? How to get to Grimmauld Place? How to get to Grimmauld Place? --Tcy From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 6 17:58:55 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:58:55 -0000 Subject: Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 In-Reply-To: <20031006165404.64745.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > TJ wrote: > > Harry- Survives. I'm 100% certainly JKR is not going to kill off the main character. > > Mela's reply: I tend to agree, but not because Harry is the main character but because I do not think that she would put that much emphasis on Harry being the boy who lived only to kill him off at age 17, maybe I'm wrong though. There was a time when I was nearly sure, that Harry would sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort. I don't think so anymore. These books are about growing up, and I doubt the message will be, that at the end of the childhood is Death. Therefore, I agree with you and think he survives. > TJ:Hermione -- Survives. 99% certain. > > My reply: One of the trio is going to die, who I am not sure. I doubt it's HErmione though she's too smart to die. She's also too important to the plot. > > > TJ:Ron -- Survives...I think. But I'm only about 60-70% certain. Ron > is my favourite character and I do sometimes wake up at 4 a.m. with > bleak thoughts and think that Ron might be killed off. I don't think > it's likely, but it could happen. > > My reply: Nobody wants their favorite character to die, I know I personally didn't want Sirius to die. But that's the way it goes. I think Ron will end up dying in some sort of sacrifice. Not sure about that though. Hickengruendler: I will do Ron and Hermione together. Personally, I don't think anyone of the trio will die. That's just a personal feeling of course, but JKR said several times, that Hermione is based after herself and Ron after an old friend. I think it would be really difficult for her to kill off these characters. If one of the trio dies, I think it will be Ron. > > TJ:Dumbledore-- Dead, Dead, Dead. I'm 100% certain DD will not be alive > at the end of Book 7, having died heroically to save Harry/the > world/whatever. > > My reply: That's interesting and while I tend to agree I agree less with that now than I did before OOP. I thought for sure Dumbledore would die in this book, but alas I was really wrong. I am not sure about him anymore. I actually think he will probably end up alive, you know how some books the only one that survives is the one who seemed to be likely to go first. Hickengruendler: He is dead meat. At the end of book 5 he had his say and told Harry about the prophecy. He also had the chance to show, that he really is a great wizard, when he duelled Voldemort. So I think he will be dead by the end of the next book (than Voldemort can attack Hogwarts in book 7). I don't think he will die in battle. My guess is, that he will have a long deathbed scene. > > > TJ wrote: Hagrid--Survives...I think. But I'd say I'm only about 50-60% sure > of this. All the pre-OOP predictions I had seen about who was going > to die had the money on Hagrid. He is such a universal favourite I'm > still a little concerned he may be a sacrificial lamb. > > My reply: I"m a bit confused with what the hell Hagrid is offering to the plot anymore. So he's axed. But my luck he'll be the sole survivor *i really do not like him, sorry!* Hickengruendler: I tend to agree with Melanie Black. While I don't really hate Hagrid, he annoys me, especially in the later books. And if one of the main characters has to die, I must admit I want it to be him. That said, I am sure he will be around till book 7 (He was my guess for the book 5 death, but he survived, and now I think he will survive book 6, too). Than he might die in book 7, and therefore all of his monsters will fight on Harry's side, to avenge Hagrid. > > TJ: Neville Longbottom--Dead. 80% certain. Neville is being groomed for > a larger part in the series, with his role in the prophecy and his > growing strength of character. I'm quite certain there will not be > more than one Hogwarts student die in the series--I don't see JKR > killing off too many younger characters. I'd say most likely Neville > will be the only other student to die, again (like DD) heroically, > but if he survives, then Ron won't. It's one or the other as far as > I can see. > > > My reply: No, no, no. Neville will survive. Why? I just can't see it happening. He's going to grow up and marry Ginny! Hickengruendler: While I think another student will die, my money is on Ginny Weasley (sorry Melanie). I think Harry will fall in love with her and than loose her, too. Neville is a possibility for a death, too, but I don't really think so. He is still my favorite candidate, for the character, who becomes a teacher after school, therefore he has to live :-) > > > TJ: Snape--Survives. But I'm only giving this about a 70% certainty. I > could see him getting killed off. > > My reply: He'll die towards the end of the books. I do not see him dying before the end mainly because of importance he serves plotwise. Could you imagine Hogwarts with Snape? Hickengruendler: I agree. Either Snape turns out to be evil and will die, or he is a heroe and dies saving Harry. *sob* > > > > TJ:Draco--Survives. You can't kill his kind. I hope his father goes > down in a big way, but I'm not counting him as a major character. > > My reply: You said it. Beautiful. Hickengruendler: I say: Kill him off. Do me the favour JK. If he doesn't get an intersting character soon, he can as well have died in the summer holidays before the beginning of year 6. > > TJ:Everyone else I can think off offhand--all the rest of the Weaseleys, > the Dursleys, other Hogwarts students, Remus Lupin...I confidently > expect to survive. > > I'd love to know other people's thoughts on who's going to make it > and who's going to bite the big one. > > tj > > MY reply: I'm praying about Lupin surviving but I think it is possible he could die. > > One clearly forgotten character is Pettigrew, I believe he will die saving Lupin or Harry in the end. > > And somebody in the blasted Weasley family has to die. LOL They are far too big. And it's not going to Percy because who would care. I know I personally would not. I'd be happy. > Hickengruendler: I agree, that at least one Weasley is doomed. My main candidates are the females, Molly or Ginny. But not both of them, I think one will die and the other survive. But Molly and Ginny are the two Weasleys, whose death would affect the rest of the family the most. Ginny is the youngest and everybody wants to protect her, and Molly is the one who tries to hold the family together. My personal guess is, that there will be two Weasley deaths, number one being Ginny or Molly, and number two Bill, Charlie, Percy or one of the twins. Hickengruendler From tammy at mauswerks.net Mon Oct 6 18:19:56 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:19:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wormtail - parallels with Wormtongue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F817A0C.2415.1E6E9C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 82381 On 6 Oct 2003 at 14:46, roseswicegood wrote: > For those who have never read LOR, worms are still considered > nature's lowest lifeform. PP got the lowest reserved for any Judas, > the tail! > > Rose Me (Tammy): Don't forget, though, in LOTR, worms weren't only the soft, squishy, wriggly, slimy things so reminicsent of a rat's tail. Worm was also another term for dragon, and dragons had a well- deserved reputation for sweet-talking the unwary (and indeed, even the MOST wary) out of hiding and into roasting range. The name 'Wormtongue' can be seen as referring to either or even both usages -- the disgusting, slimy, creepycrawlie-like, low worm that so resembles a rat's tail, or the insiduous, dangerous, fascinating, mesmerizing creature who only wants your destruction and your treasure. Indeed, he seems to pass through both phases of that name -- the dragonesque while still undiscovered and whispering sweetly rotten advice into Theoden's ear, and the lowlife who later scuttled after Saruman, eating dead things in the dark. Now, true, I see very little resemblance between PP and, say, a Norwegian Ridgeback, especially where Scabber's tail is concerned. However, he must have been able to whisper sweetly rotten advice, since he went undiscovered for over a year before the attack on the Potters. And now, he crawls at Lord Thingy's behest. I think the parallel still stands. I wonder what will come of it? *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 6 18:25:38 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:25:38 -0000 Subject: The Power V knows not (was Why is everyone so convinced the prophecy is correct? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > Which, of course, raises the question: Is Luck a Power? It > certainly isn't a power in the intrinsic sense, but it is an external > force. Maybe it would qualify. Thoughts? > > Ginger, who realizes that Eureka (I have found it) is not > appropriate, as Kneasy is the one who found it, but didn't think > Kneasareka was a bona fide word. Perhaps it should be. If only I could claim the credit, but I can't. Can't exactly put my finger on it, but I read a back post soon after I joined the site that pointed out how much luck had played in Harry's survival. But Luck as a power? Can't say that I've thought of it that way. Certainly it could be a deciding factor in certain circumstances, much as it has already. But Harry's had some mishaps along the way (falling off broomsticks, ruining potions etc.) so I reluctantly have to doubt Luck sitting on his shoulder. Interestingly, it seems to work best when he faces Voldy, so your idea of V. having bad luck might be close to the mark. Kneasy From tammy at mauswerks.net Mon Oct 6 18:34:16 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:34:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F817D68.1050.2B90F8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 82383 On 6 Oct 2003 at 16:01, urghiggi wrote: urghiggi suggested, > Then again -- Dudley Dursley was born a month before Harry, > apparently, and so at the time of the hand-off he, too, was a "living > relative" of Lily Potter (unless he's Vernon's love child with someone > other than Petunia). Now -- did the fact that Ddore didn't mention > this mean anything (like, Ddore's really not to be trusted to be > accurate/truthful)? Or did it just mean that, as an infant, Dudley > certainly couldn't be a potential party for useful employment of the > blood-charm, and thus wasn't worth mentioning? But if that's the case, > are there OTHER Evanses out there who weren't suitable, and thus not > mentioned? In which case, Mark could certainly be related somehow. I can certainly see the sense in claiming Petunia as Harry's only living relative . . . suitable for the purpose of providing a home and therefore protection. It could well be that there was, at that time, an almost-of-age Evans cousin in an orphanage, who was not suitable for the charm, being not yet able to provide a home, and being a more distant relation than Aunt Petunia. If this was the case, why should Dumbledore even mention him to McGonnagal? However, fifteen years have since passed, and the young cousin is now out on his own, married, and has a ten-year-old son, Mark, who's been known to do some fairly odd things, like get candy out of locked cupboards while Daddy had the key firmly in his hand. Hmmmm. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 6 18:46:35 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:46:35 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: <67231425506.20031006094628@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > Im my opinion, Hermione is great in the classroom, and > outstanding in remembering spells and incantations. > Theory is no problem for her. She loves researching and > figuring out mysteries. > > When it comes to using her magical abilities under pressure, > away from tests and the classroom, I'm not > convinced she is as competent. > That was surely the case in PS with the devil's snare. However, she seemed to have improved much. She took down two Death Eaters in the battle at the DoM, one who attacked Harry in the prophecy room and than later one in the time room, shortly before she knocked out herself. I would say this is pretty good. In fact, it was a better result than any member of the OOTP had, except Dumbledore. Hickengruendler From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 6 18:55:22 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:55:22 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: shortly before she knocked out > herself. Sorry, I wanted to write, because she WAS knocked out herself. Of course Hermione didn't knock out herself. Hickengruendler From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 18:59:32 2003 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (loonyloopyrjl) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 18:59:32 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82386 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: I subscribe to Four House theory. James was a Gryffindor, Sirius the good Slytherin, Lupin a Ravenclaw, and Peter a Hufflepuff. <> Lupin is the most bookish and learned of the Marauders. He also seems a bit guilty about wishing for a Gryffindor victory at Quidditch. Loony Loopy (me) writes: If anything, Lupin's guilt indicates he was a Gryffindor. Lupin expresses guilt for wishing a Gryffindor victory because he voiced favoritism for his (IMO) former House when he should now be impartial as a professor. He says something to the effect of "Not that I'm supposed to take sides" to Harry. He is not expressing guilt because he was a Ravenclaw and he's betraying loyalty to his former House. McGonagall and Snape can openly express preference for their respective Houses in a friendly Quidditch wager because they are Heads of Houses. Being "bookish and learned" does not preclude one from being sorted into Gryffindor. Hermione is bookish but she's in Gryffindor. Snape was bookish as a student (witness his post-O.W.L. behavior in OOTP), but no one seems to think he was a Ravenclaw. Loony Loopy From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 19:04:50 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:04:50 -0000 Subject: Neville and thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > Neville can already see the Thestrals. It's mentioned in the > chapter "The eye of the snake". He says, he saw his grandfather die. There is another part that proves, that Neville can see the horses. It's the very beginning of the chapter "The Department of Mysteries". Harry, Neville and Luna climb the Thestrals, while Hermione, Ron and Ginny can't see them and need help from Luna. > > Hickengruendler That's what happens when your fingers get ahead of your thoughts . The other half of the thought (that didn't get into the origianl post) is wondering if the other kids had "seen death". They weren't in the room to actually witness Sirius' death, but they knew Sirius (at least Ron, Hermione and Ginny did) and would be understand what death meant. Do they have to actually see the event or the body, or does being part of the battle count? Ravenclaw Bookworm From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 6 19:06:45 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:06:45 -0000 Subject: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore (was: Why is everyone so convinced In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > > I think this is very unfair to him. Here you have a situation of > fear, Voldemort steadily taking over, you don't know who to trust, > etc. They are new parents, they know their baby is in mortal danger. Kneasy: Ah, but they don't really know, they only suspect. DD comes along and says "There's this prophecy. If it's right you could be in danger. I think you should take precautions." The only person who is in a position to make a realistic assessment of the risk is DD. He offers to act as secret keeper. They refuse. Very, very silly. DD is possibly the only wizard who could face down Voldy. Instead they pick a friend, who in comparison is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Friendship won't keep Voldy at bay. Power might. Should DD have impressed on them just how grave a risk they were taking? Or did he and was he ignored? slgazit: > Naturally they turn to the 3 most trusted friends. They nominate > Sirius as secret keeper. The OoP all know about it. Then they start > suspecting Lupin. If they know that the suspect (Lupin) knows that > Sirius is secret keeper, it makes absolute sense to switch, and if > so, why not turn to a person whom you've been close friends with for > over a decade. Kneasy: Why not go to the one person who is above suspicion? They are not taking it seriously, neither the level of risk nor Voldy's power. DD is supposed to be a practiced Legilimens. He must know who can be trusted and who can't. If a spy has been suspected, is it likely that DD has not done a bit of mental investigation? Maybe he has. Maybe he knows. Given the circumstances it"s the most logical scenario. But he chooses not to act. Why? Because he needs Weapon!Harry, but to get that, casualties must occur. slgazit: > I Just for comparison, think what a > shock to Harry (or to us readers) it would be if Dobby would turn > out to be a Voldemort spy. After all, his attitude towards Harry is > similar to Peter's in the pensieve incident. Kneasy: I like it! What an inspired idea! Now I'll have to search the canon for supporting evidence. In European folklore Elves are pretty nasty creatures, maybe Dobby is reverting to type. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 19:09:21 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:09:21 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: <3F817D68.1050.2B90F8@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82389 A point about the Evans that I have not seen discussed before. Dumbledore said, "They're the only family he has left now." (SS/PS, p 13 US) What if he meant "...the only *immediate* family..."? Think of it this way. When I was 15 months old, my sisters hadn't been born yet. So my family consisted of my parents and me. My mother has one brother, by father had no siblings. If something had happened to my parents (and if my grandparents were not alive at that time), my uncle would have been "the only family I had left." I have no 1st cousins. I have a few 2nd cousins, and I have recently discovered I have a whole bunch of 3rd, 4th, and 5th cousins. However, they would be too distantly related to be considered as guardians. Presuming that the senior Potters and Evans were no longer living, Petunia was the only person close enough to be considered "family." Adding in the consideration of the blood protection, Petunia is the closest blood relation to Lily, so is the logical choice for Dumbledore to consider as Harry's guardian. Lily's parents were proud to have a witch in the family, which indicates to me that they were either squibs, or the children of squibs ? close enough to know about the WW. (Or at least one of them was.) Lily's ability was evidence that the magic gene was still there in the family. So trace it back up the family tree and down another branch, and you get that magic gene in Mark Evans' line. Mark's father could have been alive at that time but was not a close- enough relative to use the blood protection charm. So it is possible for Mark Evans to be Harry's cousin without contradicting Dumbledore's statement. Ravenclaw Bookworm From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 6 19:09:28 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:09:28 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82390 > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > I subscribe to Four House theory. James was a Gryffindor, Sirius the > good Slytherin, Lupin a Ravenclaw, and Peter a Hufflepuff. I really think, OOTP highly indicates (it's in chapter 9, Mrs. Weasley's woes), that at least Lupin and Sirius were both in the same house. The way Sirius says, that Lupin was made prefect instead of him, sounds a lot like an either-or decision. Either Lupin or Sirius could have been made prefect, not both. If that's true, they had to be in the same house. Before OOTP I would have said, that the least house I would expect Peter to be in is Hufflepuff, because he is even less loyal than he is brave. But according to the new song, Helga wanted to teach everybody, so it's possible. Still I think the Marauders were all in the same house. Hickengruendler From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 19:14:30 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:14:30 -0000 Subject: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore (was: Why is everyone so convinced In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: >I think this is very unfair to him. Here you have a situation of >fear, Voldemort steadily taking over, you don't know who to trust, >etc. They are new parents, they know their baby is in mortal danger. >Naturally they turn to the 3 most trusted friends. They nominate >Sirius as secret keeper. The OoP all know about it. Then they start >suspecting Lupin. A thought that has been rattling around in my head for a while: What was Lupin doing that made the others suspect he was the spy? In OoP he is frequently away on Order business but no one seems to suspect him of spying, so there must have been something else going on. Ravenclaw Bookworm From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Oct 6 19:17:17 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:17:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <150240475937.20031006121717@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 82392 Hi, Monday, October 06, 2003, 11:46:35 AM, hickengruendler wrote: > She took down two Death Eaters in the > battle at the DoM, one who attacked Harry in the prophecy room and > than later one in the time room, shortly before she knocked out > herself. Yes, but if she had kept her mind on what was going on, instead of complimenting Harry, as if this was just a test situation at school, she might have been a lot more effective. Instead of just silencing the DE, why didn't she choose to "stupefy" him, preventing him to do any further harm, instead of just keeping him from disclosing their location? Hermione is an effective witch, but still has problems in dangerous situations, where she has to make split second decisions. Not to say this isn't a perfectly normal reaction, but Hermione gets elevated to "perfect at everything" status so much... ;) All just my opinion, of course :) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From oppen at mycns.net Mon Oct 6 19:26:20 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:26:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's growth References: <013701c38c03$dc204a00$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: <00d901c38c3f$bb620f60$84560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 82393 She breaks the rules now because/when she > > knows it is for a greater good. > > > What about Rita Skeeter, though? Eric Oppen (I think it was Eric) suggested a long time ago that Hermione's blackmail of Rita Skeeter would come back to haunt her. That's right---I think I'm the first to suggest that possibility. As of the end of Book 5, it hasn't---but I doubt we've heard the last of our least-favorite Wizard World journalist. This may come to pass in Book Six, since Hermione's now got another enemy, in the form of Dolores Umbridge. Even though she covered herself in ignominy during her time at Hogwarts, Umbridge probably still has power and influence behind-the-scenes at the Ministry, and she's got a _real, real_ good reason (from her POV, of course) to hate Hermione's guts. Right now, Harry's all but untouchable and the Ministry has lots and lots of egg on its face from their attempts to discredit him. Hermione, on the other hand, is by far the most vulnerable of the Trio---a Muggle-born, she doesn't have relatives that work in the Ministry to protect her, and she is _not_ "The Boy Who Lived, Great Wizarding Hero." If Rita Skeeter's out for revenge ("Damn you, Hermione, imprisoning me was bad enough, but lecturing me for hours and hours about how bad house-elves have it, and reading _Hogwarts: A History_ to me by the hour, was way beyond anything I could have deserved!") and thinks to hook up with Dolores, Hermione could well find herself in the cross-hairs, next book. (Write, JKR, Write!) > Gorda: > > > Well, if Hermione has a tragic flaw, I don't know that shielding rather than > > partnering with her friends is one. (This may much more apply to Molly, who > > needs to quit s/mothering and start treating her kids including Harry more as > > adults). I am more inclined to think that Hermione needs to connect more with > > her emotions than be ruled by logic and ethics, which can only take you so > > far. I think she can be forgiven for bossing her friends around (Goodness > > knows, they need it sometimes!). [snip]> > > What Hermione needs to learn is that "cool use of intellect" only goes so far in > > taking her where she needs to go, just like Harry needs to learn that playing > > the hero is not > > Actually, I said that her failure to work in partnership with others is how her flaw will manifest itself. The flaw itself is her extreme overconfidence (which, as you point out, derive from her reliance on her intellectual skills) and unwillingness or inability to consider others' point of view. She presumes to know what's best for others instead of working with them. > I would say that Hermione's weakness is almost certainly her insecurity. I think she studies so hard and tries so hard for the _best_ grades because, down deep, she's always terrified that one fine day they'll say that there's been a mistake and she has to leave Hogwarts. The ghods know that there are people who'd love to do that *cough Malfoys cough cough* New question: What do you all think of _Luna's_ chances of surviving to the end of Book 7? Me, I think that she, along with Neville, Ginny, maybe another Weasley or two or three, Dumbledore, and Hagrid, is Doomed, Doomed, Doomed. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 19:43:50 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:43:50 -0000 Subject: a reason why lily didn't have to die.......... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lynnfaragher78" wrote: > is it possible that Lily may have been LV half sister?.......his > father may have had another child later on........has this been said > before? let me know......... > > lynn While theoretically possible, given the issue of time manipulation in the Potter series, it is very unlikely. Voldemort was apparently born in the late 1920's, and killed his father while still a young man. Harry was born in 1980, and is mother was in her early twenties at the oldest. (You can consult the time-lines available at various Internet sites for more "exact" dates and ages.) So, Lily was born when Tom Riddle the elder had been dead for quite a few years. If there is a blood relationship between Lily and Voldemort, canon certainly leaves ample opportunity for such, since so little is given regarding Harry's ancestry. However, Lily's being Voldemort's half- sister isn't one of them. It would be more plausible for her to be Voldemort's daughter or grand-daughter, and I don't give either of those options a great deal of weight, again thanks to the lack of support in canon. Such speculations are purely that, speculation without extant support in canon. Richard From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 6 20:48:25 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:48:25 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: <00d901c38c3f$bb620f60$84560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > That's right---I think I'm the first to suggest that possibility. As of the > end of Book 5, it hasn't---but I doubt we've heard the last of our > least-favorite Wizard World journalist. But the question is, if Rita Skeeter has really a reason to hate Hermione that much now. Of course, she spent some time in the jar, which isn't nice, but I think it's possible, that Hermione reedemed herself her bit in Rita's eyes in OOTP. As it is, Rita can come out as the reporter, who always believed the boy who lived, and didn't refuse to write an interview with him about Voldemort's return. Now, she could be a winner of the situation. That is because of Hermione's blackmail. Besides, Hermione can still tell everybody about Rita being an unregistered Animagus. So I don't think Skeeter will do to much to annoy Hermione. > > This may come to pass in Book Six, since Hermione's now got another enemy, > in the form of Dolores Umbridge. Even though she covered herself in > ignominy during her time at Hogwarts, Umbridge probably still has power and > influence behind-the-scenes at the Ministry, and she's got a _real, real_ > good reason (from her POV, of course) to hate Hermione's guts. This is IMO more likely than Rita taking revenge, but it remains to be seen, if Umbridge will really stay powerful. The wizard society probably isn't to happy about Fudge, and it remains to be seen, what the DP will post about the ministry now. Umbridge confessed in front of several witnesses, that she sent Dementors after "the boy who lived". She also wanted to put the Cruciatus Curse on him. If the truth about this comes out, than Umbridge will loose her job, before anyone can say "toad", if only, because Fudge needs a scapegoat. Not even to mention all the other things she did, like allowing Filch to whip the students or her punishment with that horrible quill. > Hickengruendler From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 20:59:11 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:59:11 -0000 Subject: Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82396 <<<"T.J." wrote:...I've been running through a little list in my head...trying to think through who's likely to be dead and who's likely to be alive by the end of Book 7. My personal belief...is that JKR still sees HP basically as a series of young- adult...novels, and is somewhat...bound by the conventions of that genre, so that although there will be deaths in order to demonstrate the total evil of Voldemort and company, there will not be a wholesale mass slaughter of the "good" wizards, to the extent that the future will seem bleak at the end.>>> The Sergeant Majorette says <> I couldn't see Harry living happily ever after, but the point made that there is no lesson if the hero dies gives me hope. <> Yeah. JKR wouldn't kill herself off. <> I think Ron survives, and eventually becomes Headmaster. Why else would there be such frequent reference to Ron's and DD's long noses? And we know that DD had red, or at least auburn, hair in his youth. <> To reiterate: dead, and dead again. <> Please, no. Love Robbie Coltrane, but Hagrid's beginning to get on my nerves big time. Also Harry's beginning to see Hagrid's faults. <> Setting up Neville as an alternate hero effectively dooms him and saves Harry. <> If he survived, he'd have to mellow out -- feh. I'd like to see him die heroically and become a Hogwarts ghost; maybe thereby releasing Sir Nicholas and becoming, reluctantly, the Gryffindor ghost! <> He's Harry's foil. I think we are going to see some character development for him, and I think he'll survive. <<...all the rest of the Weaseleys, the Dursleys, other Hogwarts students, Remus Lupin...I confidently expect to survive.>> I thought Molly Weasley was going to be the big death of Book V. I still think she's doomed. I see her death as giving Arthur the hard shell he'll need as postwar Minister of Magic. Ginny could die by the same narrative logic as Neville. And yes, there *are* too many Weasleys. At least one of the boys (not Ron) is going to die. The most traumatic death (which would fulfill the "difficult to write" and "ruthless" conditions that JKR has set) would be one of the twins. Percy also is in narrative-logic trouble. One of the Dursleys could die, prompting the redemption of the surviving two, and Lupin will live as the last of the Marauders. --JDR From amani at charter.net Mon Oct 6 21:50:49 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:50:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Significance of Harry's blood in Voldemort References: Message-ID: <001301c38c53$e833f800$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82397 Donna: > Ah, but you have to remember, I am a true believer in happy endings. > I would so hate it if Harry dies. It would be a tremendous let down > for me. > Jeff: Well, I *hope* it won't happen, but I somehow think that whatever happens in the end, while it might be happy, it won't be as happy as what we would really consider happy. Think of how all the previous books have ended. Yes, Harry wins, but always at some cost, and it looks like Jo always makes Harry pop back up at the station or the great hall just as an afterthought for the epilogue. Harry wins, but always seems the worse for the wear. What will he be like in the last book? Crippled? Missing a limb, an eye? Somehow I don't think he'll be totally unscathed. Taryn: I'm such a sucker for tragedy that I almost feel like I'm rooting for Harry dying. There's no way he's getting through unscathed, as you said, but I'm convinced of his death (and of Hermione and Ron retained their lives, but that just might be the R/H shipper in me talking). The giving of yourself as a sacrifice to save the world is, of course, one of the greatest Christian ideals, which just reminds me of that post Ernie made recently about Sirius' sacrifice. Or maybe I just really love depressing books. :P --Taryn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Mon Oct 6 22:09:33 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:09:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 References: <20031006165404.64745.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004501c38c56$85f66760$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82398 Melanie: And somebody in the blasted Weasley family has to die. LOL They are far too big. And it's not going to Percy because who would care. I know I personally would not. I'd be happy. Taryn: I think Percy will be the one to die out of the Weasleys. And his death WILL have meaning, because the WW will have united behind the common goal to defeat Voldemort. Sure, Percy's one hell of a jerk in OotP. But he hates evil as much as any of the other Weasleys. And I'm convinced there's going to be a large turn-around in his character for the better. (Possibly after unwittingly helping the dark side.) ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 6 22:16:53 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:16:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One - Dudley Demented (yes, this is a repost) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82399 Those of you who have been reading since July know that we started a series of Chapter Discussion summaries, to run every two weeks. However, we *vastly* underestimated the increase in posting volume following OOP's publication (at one point we were posting over twice as much as the previous posting record), and the discussions were, quite simply, being drowned. Since posting has now reached reasonable rates, threads are getting long again, and there have been several requests on both the Main List and OTC that we resume Chapter Discussions, we're going to re- start. Rather than have everyone try and fight their way through the Yahoo search engine, we'll post the first four discussions on a weekly basis. Having then caught up, we'll revert to the fortnightly posting originally planned. The original Chapter One summary is below. Pippy Elf For the Administration Team ********************************************************************* **** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/68149 Hi! To kick off our Order of the Phoenix Chapter Discussions, we're starting with a summary of Chapter One (surprise!). I've included the questions that occurred to me as I summarised the chapter. Rather than put a long list of questions at the end, I've placed them where they arise naturally from the text. Order of the Phoenix Chapter One Chapter Discussion Summary and Questions This chapter starts with Harry hiding under a flowerbed, trying to hear the TV news without being seen. It establishes that Harry isn't a cute little boy any longer; he looks pinched and unhealthy, his jeans are dirty and the soles of his trainers flapping. Is this a choice of Harry's? Previously his clothes have been secondhand and too big for him, but there was no mention of their being worn out or dirty. He is hiding because his relationship with his Aunt and Uncle is so bad that they won't willingly watch television with him. They grind their teeth and question him. We hear Uncle Vernon express suspicion at Harry's interest in the news. Is this a change in the relationship between Harry and his foster parents? In PoA Harry is eating with the family and watching TV with them. Harry sees Mrs Figg, and the reader is told that she has recently taken to asking him round for tea. Harry wants to avoid her. Is this a foreshadowing? Is Harry unknowingly avoiding support and help that he could have been given? Aunt Petunia tells Uncle Vernon that their son Dudley is out for tea at the Polkiss's. Harry knows that this is a lie, and that Dudley and his gang hang around and engage in petty vandalism each evening. Is this lack of knowledge about their son a development of the Dursley's? Or a continuation of a previous theme? The news comes on and is harmless. There is nothing of interest to Harry; we find out that he has been waiting for some incident that shows Lord Voldemort has come out into the open. Was Uncle Vernon right not to trust Harry? Harry did have an ulterior motive for watching the news, which he hasn't shared with them. Harry hears a loud crack, his aunt screams and he leaps to his feet, pulling his wand out. Did Petunia recognise the crack as the sound of someone apparating? Unfortunately, he hits his head on the open window. Uncle Vernon grabs him and demands that he puts his wand away. Suddenly he finds Harry impossible to hold. Why? Vernon thinks that Harry made the loud noise. Petunia seems more interested in why Harry was lurking under the window. Both Aunt and Uncle accuse Harry of being up to something. They demand to know what news the Owls are bringing him. Harry has to admit that the Owls aren't bringing him any news. Harry loses his temper and stalks off. He knows he'll be in trouble later. Is this a signal that Harry's temper is going to cause him a lot of trouble this year? Harry is sure that the sound was somebody Apparating/Disapparating. He wonders if it might be Dobby. As he continues to think about it, he becomes unsure, and wonders if he's not so desperate for contact from the wizarding world that he's reading too much into what might have been an everyday noise. We find that the Daily Prophet contains no news of Voldemort's return, and that Ron and Hermione have been told not to tell him anything important in case their letters go astray. Harry is angry at Ron and Hermione ? so angry that he threw their presents away (which he now regrets). Again, is this another foreshadowing ? is Harry's anger mainly harming himself? He feels that they are enjoying themselves at the Burrow while he is stuck at Privet Drive. Does this prove to be fair? Harry feels that he is much more capable than Ron and Hermione, having survived the graveyard at the end of GoF. His godfather is advising caution, which Harry feels is reasonable ? though he finds it galling to be warned about rashness by Sirius. Is Sirius assuming Harry is James? Is Harry normally rash? We find that Harry is having nightmares about Cedric's death in the graveyard. He's also dreaming about a strange dark corridor. His scar prickles constantly. He doesn't think that Ron, Hermione or Sirius would be interested in that. Is this a reasonable assessment, or is he again pushing away support and help that was available? After a mere four weeks, Harry is full of impatience. He feels abandoned by Dumbledore, his friends and his guardian. Has he been abandoned? Dudley and his gang go by the park where Harry is sitting. Dudley has changed from the overweight boy he used to be. He has become athletic, and an Inter School Boxing Champion. His huge size is now muscle rather than fat. Does this signal the beginnings of a future change in Dudley? Is it the first signs of a reformed Dudley? Or a more dangerous Dudley? Harry thinks Dudley is now more dangerous ? the neighbourhood children are more frightened of Dudley than of the `hooligan' Harry. Harry longs to hex Dudley, or show Dudley's gang how scared Dudley is of Harry. But he knows that if he uses magic outside of school, he risks being expelled. So he lets Dudley's gang walk by, and doesn't call attention to himself. He thinks to himself that this is exactly the opposite of what Sirius would have done. Harry feels unhappy because he's taken the sensible option. He knows Sirius wouldn't have taken the sensible option. Does this show Sirius as a good or a bad role model for Harry? Harry knows that he's expected to get in at the same time as Dudley, so he heads off towards Privet Drive. Instead of ignoring Dudley, he deliberately catches up with him and starts teasing him. He siphons off his frustration into Dudley. Dudley, meanwhile, does not attack Harry physically. Harry taunts Dudley because Dudley has been beating up 10 year olds. Dudley responds by saying that Harry would be scared to fight him without his wand, and anyway, would get expelled if he used it. Dudley also points out that he's won against older, heavier opponents. Is Harry just trying to get back at Dudley for his past bullying? Or is Harry trying to bully Dudley? Who is showing more restraint? Why? Dudley counter-attacks Harry, by telling Harry that he's been crying out in his sleep `Don't kill Cedric'. Harry's also been calling out for his dead mother and father to save him from Voldemort. This makes Harry so angry that he pulls out his wand. Why doesn't Harry explain the nightmares to Dudley? Dudley is as scared of the wand as if Harry had pointed a loaded gun at him. He keeps yelling at Harry to point it away from him. Is Harry doing the equivalent of pointing a loaded gun at Dudley? How dangerous is a wand in the hands of an angry teenager? Does Harry think he's doing anything dangerous? As Harry is pointing his wand at Dudley, all the lights vanish and the night suddenly becomes icy cold. Dudley seems to detect the Dementors, he shivers as though he's been dropped in an icy bath. Dudley thinks that it's Harry causing these effects and hits him. Is this a sensible reaction? If Harry *had* been producing the dark and cold, would knocking him out have stopped it? In the event, Harry is half stunned and his wand is knocked out of his hand. In the crisis, Harry tries to protect Dudley. He warns him to keep his mouth shut. He also manages to light his wand without touching it. Is this an example of true wandless magic? Could it be useful to Harry to learn to do spells without his wand? Harry tries to produce the Patronus, but he can't think of happy enough thoughts. The Dementors hands are closing on his throat when he realises that if he doesn't do something, he'll never see Ron and Hermione again. Is this a *happy* thought? Harry produces his best and most powerful Patronus's not when he is concentrating on a happy memory, but when he's thinking that he's about to lose something that makes him happy. His friends. Is this in keeping with Lupin's instructions in PoA, that a Patronus is produced by concentrating on a happy thought? The Patronus saves Harry, and Harry then turns his Patronus on the Dementor attacking Dudley. Dudley is clamping his hands over his mouth. Muggles are not supposed to see Dementors ? is this a sign that Dudley has magic in him? Or is it a sign that Dudley trusts Harry more than Harry thinks? Is Harry rescuing Dudley a sign of Harry's inner goodness? Or does Harry care for his cousin more than he thinks he does? Harry is stunned at the appearance of Dementors in Little Whinging. He then sees Mrs Figg running towards him, and moves to hide his wand. She yells at him to keep his wand out in case there are more Dementors Pip!Squeak From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Oct 6 22:21:38 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:21:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why only James had to die Message-ID: <79.1a53098a.2cb344f2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82400 In a message dated 10/6/2003 10:53:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > Sherrie (that's me) adds: > > Additionally, the prophecy specifies that it would be a child born > at a specific time - so any child born at any time other than the end of > July, 1980, wouldn't qualify to fulfill it. Geoff: Not necessarily. The prophecy does NOT specifically say 1980. It could have been a later year... The prophecy does not have a sell-by date on it. :-) Sherrie (that's me - the redhead) responds: The wording of the prophecy implies that the birth of the Child of Destiny (love that phrase...) was imminent - this was something that was to occur within months, not years. IMHO, a child born at a later date wouldn't fulfill the imminence implied by the wording. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 22:25:38 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:25:38 -0000 Subject: a reason why lily didn't have to die.......... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: Lynn wrote: > > is it possible that Lily may have been LV half sister?.......his > > father may have had another child later on........has this been > said before? let me know......... Richard wrote: If there is a blood relationship between Lily and Voldemort, >canon certainly leaves ample opportunity for such, since so little >is given regarding Harry's ancestry. However, Lily's being >Voldemort's half-sister isn't one of them. It would be more >plausible for her to be Voldemort's daughter or grand-daughter, and >I don't give either of those options a great deal of weight, again >thanks to the lack of support in canon. Such speculations are >purely that, speculation without extant support in canon. "Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you....He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became your refuge." (Dumbledore, OoP, p836 US) If Voldemort and Lily are related, the bond of blood wouldn't work to protect Harry against Voldemort. Ravenclaw Bookworm From Calimora at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 23:14:33 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:14:33 -0000 Subject: Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82402 > The Sergeant Majorette says > > < the main character.>> > I couldn't see Harry living happily ever after, but the point made > that there is no lesson if the hero dies gives me hope. Me: Before OotP I would have said Harry Lives. Period. But now I'm not so sure, the existance of an afterlife and reunion with his family opens up the possiblity of 'Happy Death' like Lewis' Narnia Chronicals. In he end of the last book (The Last Battle?) he killed off not only the major charactors of that instalment, but the major charactors of every single book that came before it and did a big happy runion scene after the end of the world. Not saying its likely, but its a possiblity. Harry Lives: 65% > <> > Yeah. JKR wouldn't kill herself off. > > <> I group them together and say that they live depending on the relationships (not necissarily SHIPs). But if any two of the Trio die, the third man is toast, too. R&H Live: 90% > <> > To reiterate: dead, and dead again. Once again, OotP has shifted my veiws. Dumbledore the Nearly Omnicent, and Dumbledore the Fix-Anything HAD TO DIE in order for Harry to come into his own. But OotP has succefully killed both those Dumbledores (Unless you subscribe to MAGIC DISHWASHER) and left Dumbledore the Human, who isn't so much of a literary road block. That said, I still think he's probably going to kick it. Dumbledore Lives: 40% > <> > Please, no. Love Robbie Coltrane, but Hagrid's beginning to get on > my nerves big time. Also Harry's beginning to see Hagrid's faults. Yep, he's getting on my nerves too, unfortunately I think we're stuck with him. Hagrid Lives: 80% Hagrid Lives to book 7: 100% > <> > Setting up Neville as an alternate hero effectively dooms him and > saves Harry. > Yep. Toast. In a blaze of Gryffindor Bravery that does his Gran proud. Neville Lives: 0% > < I could see him getting killed off.>> > If he survived, he'd have to mellow out -- feh. I'd like to see > him die heroically and become a Hogwarts ghost; maybe thereby > releasing Sir Nicholas and becoming, reluctantly, the Gryffindor > ghost! Snape = Toast. Dies by the misguided actions of the ministry or trying to save one of the Students. Snape Lives: 10% > <> > He's Harry's foil. I think we are going to see some character > development for him, and I think he'll survive. Qualified. If Harry lives Draco dies. If Harry dies Draco lives, reformed. Draco Lives: 35% > <<...all the rest of the Weaseleys, the Dursleys, other Hogwarts > students, Remus Lupin...I confidently expect to survive.>> > I thought Molly Weasley was going to be the big death of Book V. I > still think she's doomed. I see her death as giving Arthur the > hard shell he'll need as postwar Minister of Magic. Ginny could > die by the same narrative logic as Neville. And yes, there *are* > too many Weasleys. At least one of the boys (not Ron) is going to > die. The most traumatic death (which would fulfill the "difficult > to write" and "ruthless" conditions that JKR has set) would be one > of the twins. Percy also is in narrative-logic trouble. Molly Weasley Lives: 100% There aren't enough women to kill her off. (McGonagall could bite the dust though.) I think Fred and George will live too for similar reasons. The tone of the story changes too much with the death of the comic relief (and killing one is the death of both). JKR's already destroyed one prankster, she doen't need anouther. Also, they are unique in that they aren't tailoring their lives to fit the war. This may change in the next book, but for now, Gred and Forge Live: 100% The most logical Weasley Death is Percy, and like Snape and Neville he'd go out doing the work of the Order. Percy Lives 20% > One of the Dursleys could die, prompting the redemption of the > surviving two, and Lupin will live as the last of the Marauders. > > --JDR The Dursleys Die spectacuraly prompting a Muggle/WW clash as secrecy becomes more difficult. And Lupin is Toast. No Good reason there exept I can't stand the thought of the Last Marauder Standing. It seems too lonely. The exception is if he hooks up with Tonks or somebody (and they live), then Lupin's survival sky rockets to 50% ~Calimora (My take on the mess. Alternitively you could flip a random Potter book open to a random page and say that everybody mentioned on the page dies. It'd probably be about as accurate.) From sydenmill at msn.com Mon Oct 6 23:23:02 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:23:02 -0000 Subject: Longbottom/Potter Friendship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82403 (As always, searched and didn't find, so if you have posted on this, please refer me. Thanks!) How does this sound? It struck me when re-reading about the torture of the Longbottoms that perhaps they, and their infant son Neville, were visiting the Potters that fateful evening when Lord Voldemort came to call. Why else would Belladrix torture them to insanity, convinced that they knew where Voldemort was, unless they had been there when Voldemort disappeared? Since the Potters were dead and Voldemort suddenly gone, it makes sense that the Longbottoms would know where he was, but only if they had been present at his disappearance. Why else would they be targeted as a source of this information? It has been mentioned that the Potters and Longbottoms were in the original Order together --and, young couples with small children the same age would most certainly have a strong bond of friendship, visiting oneanother frequently, etc. So, if the Longbottoms were there that night, they could have immediately notified Dumbledore about what had just happened -- (remember, Dumbledore told Harry that members of the Order had more reliable ways of communicating than the Floo network) -- destroyed the Potter's house in case any Order information was there, and taken Hagrid and little baby Harry to their house, to await further instructions. Meanwhile, slimey little Pettigrew, hiding out of sight to watch the show when Voldemort arrived, rushes to tell his fellow Death Eaters what he knows about the Longbottoms being there that night, and Belladrix hunts them down. It could be that Voldemort came to kill both children that night but got AK'd to oblivion in rebound before he could get to them both. That would explain an awful lot, wouldn't it? Bohcoo From Calimora at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 23:28:49 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:28:49 -0000 Subject: who calls Voldie the "Dark Lord" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyliemckenzie1225" wrote: > So...since the Sorting Hat and DD are concerned about unity between > the houses, does anyone think that Slytherin may eventually split > from the other houses in loyalty? > > kylie Yeap. My money is on Draco or Zambini. Draco because he's on his way to several nasty shocks (assuming that he's not as stupid as his public face) and Zambini because he's the only one without known DE connections who neither muggle bashes or suports Malfoy (No Potter Stinks badge.) Without a switch, I'm not sure how JKR could pull off her moral and her forshadowing. ~Calimora (Who's considering substituting Omicient!SortingHat for Omnicient!Dumbledore.) From Calimora at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 23:34:51 2003 From: Calimora at yahoo.com (Renee Daniels) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:34:51 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > Still I think the Marauders were all in the same house. > > Hickengruendler So does JKR. She said so once. I think she also stuck Lily fermly into Gryffindor as well. ~Calimora From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 04:03:29 2003 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Lady Pensieve) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:03:29 -0000 Subject: why only James had to die In-Reply-To: <20031006002957.22405.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > In this scenario, once James had died, there would be > no need for Lily to follow suit. Had Lily died first, > the same could be said for James. > --Raven "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" "Stand aside, you silly girl... stand aside, now...." "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --" My question is - why did LV give a fig as to whether he killed Lily or not...there has to be a reason he didn't want to... LadyPensieve From csgkll8 at aol.com Mon Oct 6 14:17:07 2003 From: csgkll8 at aol.com (napnoy2003) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:17:07 -0000 Subject: Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK GOWNS clue ?/Dumbledore ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82407 --- > We have also seen throught the series, characters given sweets to > shut them up. DD offered McGonagal a lemon drop in PS/SS so she > would stop talking about LV's demise and the Potter's death. In OOP > she pushes Ginger Newts on Harry to fill his mouth so he will stop > talking and listen. That gives more canon maybe to the Longbottoms > chewing so much Droobles...they have their mouth full so they cannot > speak. Plus it is full of mind numbing potion put their by someone > wanting to keep them quiet. > Fran > Fran I like this idea. Remember in OotP after Umbridge sends Harry to McGonagal's office with a note.... "Have a biscuit Potter" "Have - what?" "Have a biscuit" she repeated impatiently......."Have another biscuit" she said irritably- "No thanks" said Harry coldly. "Don't be ridiculous" she snapped. Another co-incidence? Any other thoughts or examples out there? "Napnoy" From c_naegle at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 14:17:30 2003 From: c_naegle at yahoo.com (c_naegle) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 14:17:30 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > > > > HG writes: > > > > What I see as more likely is that Harry was "marked as an equal" in > > the graveyard scene, when Voldemort was mocking Harry, forcing him to > > go through the motions of a duel. In that scene, even though it was > > all in ridicule, Voldemort did indeed mark Harry as an equal. > > Kneazle responds: > > > > Yes, good show HG! > > > > In The GoF scene, Voldemort goes thru the motions of a formal duel, > > even if it is in jest. A duel is, almost by definition, a fight > > between equals. Voldemort bows to Harry and makes Harry bow to him. > > > > > > I don't think it was in jest. > For an absolutely superb analysis of the graveyard scene you *must* > read Pip's 'The Spying Game Part II - I want you to DIE, Mr Potter' > post No. 40044. It's long, detailed and convincing. > > It may change your views. V did not hear the entire proph. and did not know at the time that Harry may or may not have been the one in the proph. Remember at the time there were two boys who the prophecy could have been about. V made Harry the one when he choose to go to Godric's Hollow to try and kill him. That was the marking of the equal, but V had no idea about that part of it. Harry himself questions why V didn't wait until the two of them grew up and he saw who was the strongest wizard. Casper From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Oct 6 18:39:39 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:39:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blood in the bottle? References: Message-ID: <037601c38c39$3b3bb8a0$f6e979a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82409 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" > Message 82352 wrote: > > Hi, > > this is a sentence which make me think. > > > > " an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, > > full of what Harry was quite sure was blood." OoP page 99, UK > edition > > > > I highly doubt it was blood. > > > > Why do you doubt it was blood? There 'are' vampires in the HP world. > > > "K" > That, and coming from someone who had actually performed "blood rituals" (using my own blood only...), blood is used in MANY types of rituals and magics... it enhances the power of what you're trying to do. And this is for any magic, not just Dark magic. (Personally, I refuse to do anything that I consider Dark Magic... which is anything that's specifically targeted with the intent of ill will towards another... to put it in its most basic terms.) Also, as far as the blood in the bottle at the OotP Headquarters being in liquid form rather than coagulated, there could easily be a spell on the bottle to keep its contents in liquid form. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "ISIS! ISIS! (RA! RA! RA!)" -- ABS FIRECAT From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Oct 6 19:06:54 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:06:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 References: <20031006165404.64745.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <038101c38c3d$033c8f20$f6e979a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82410 > TJ:Ron -- Survives...I think. But I'm only about 60-70% certain. Ron > is my favourite character and I do sometimes wake up at 4 a.m. with > bleak thoughts and think that Ron might be killed off. I don't think > it's likely, but it could happen. > > Melanie: Nobody wants their favorite character to die, I know I personally didn't want Sirius to die. But that's the way it >goes. I think Ron will end up dying in some sort of sacrifice. Not sure about that though. I agree with this one, especially since he's already shown a willingness to potentially sacrifice his life for the greater good way back in SS/PS. (To all this knowledge, he wasn't going to survive the sacrifice he made on the chessboard.) > > TJ:Dumbledore-- Dead, Dead, Dead. I'm 100% certain DD will not be alive > at the end of Book 7, having died heroically to save Harry/the > world/whatever. > > Melanie: That's interesting and while I tend to agree I agree less with that now than I did before OOP. I thought for sure >Dumbledore would die in this book, but alas I was really wrong. I am not sure about him anymore. I actually think he will >probably end up alive, you know how some books the only one that survives is the one who seemed to be likely to go first. > I can see this one going either way. (I'm just going to wait and see what happens with no peeking.) > > TJ wrote: Hagrid--Survives...I think. But I'd say I'm only about 50-60% sure > of this. All the pre-OOP predictions I had seen about who was going > to die had the money on Hagrid. He is such a universal favourite I'm > still a little concerned he may be a sacrificial lamb. > > Melanie: I"m a bit confused with what the hell Hagrid is offering to the plot anymore. So he's axed. But my luck he'll be >the sole survivor *i really do not like him, sorry!* > I can see this one happening either way as well As for what Hagrid offers to the plotline, I think he'll still be the one who's the most instrumental in getting some of the non-human groups to join with the resistance against Voldemort. > > TJ: Neville Longbottom--Dead. 80% certain. Neville is being groomed for > a larger part in the series, with his role in the prophecy and his > growing strength of character. I'm quite certain there will not be > more than one Hogwarts student die in the series--I don't see JKR > killing off too many younger characters. I'd say most likely Neville > will be the only other student to die, again (like DD) heroically, > but if he survives, then Ron won't. It's one or the other as far as > I can see. > > Melanie: No, no, no. Neville will survive. Why? I just can't see it happening. He's going to grow up and marry Ginny! > Personally, I'd get rather put out if Neville dies. He's my favorite of the students at Hogwarts other than the Trio. Also, after JKR starting to have him finally begin to show what he's really worth, killing him off would be a bad move, IMHO. (And I can see him marrying either Ginny, or Loony. Although I have more of a feeling that Harry will wind up with Loony... that is, if he doesn't hook up with Tonks. *grin*) > > TJ: Snape--Survives. But I'm only giving this about a 70% certainty. I > could see him getting killed off. > > Melanie: He'll die towards the end of the books. I do not see him dying before the end mainly because of importance he >serves plotwise. Could you imagine Hogwarts with Snape? > If Snapes survives, I'd see him as finally getting the DADA teaching post he so ardently desires. If he dies, I think it'll be in the final conflict as well... and I think that, soon before the final battle in either case, he and Harry will reach a truce (if not actually a grudging friendship.) > > TJ:Draco--Survives. You can't kill his kind. I hope his father goes > down in a big way, but I'm not counting him as a major character. > > Melanie: You said it. Beautiful. > I think Lucius Malfoy will drop in a big way as well, and I think it'll be as a direct result of something Harry does. This would give Draco a reason to obsess with a lifeling quest for revenge against Harry. (If Harry doesn't take down LM, then I think it'll be Neville, and Draco will still blame Harry... rewriting events in his own mind and rationalizing things to justify... at least in his own mind... his personal vendetta against Harry.) > TJ:Everyone else I can think off offhand--all the rest of the Weaseleys, > the Dursleys, other Hogwarts students, Remus Lupin...I confidently > expect to survive. > > I'd love to know other people's thoughts on who's going to make it > and who's going to bite the big one. > > tj > > Melanie: I'm praying about Lupin surviving but I think it is possible he could die. I think Lupin will survive. I don't think JRK would go so far as to kill off ALL of the Marauders. (James and Sirius are dead, and I agree that Peter will die in some last-ditch, noble sacrifice... a-la Darth Vader in "Return of the Jedi.") This will also allow Harry to have SOME link with his parents through Lupin, who I think will act more in a way like he's taking on Sirius' duties as a godfather. > >Melanie: One clearly forgotten character is Pettigrew, I believe he will die saving Lupin or Harry in the end. I agree here. > > And somebody in the blasted Weasley family has to die. LOL They are far too big. And it's not going to Percy because who would care. I know I personally would not. I'd be happy. > > ~Melanie Honestly, if it's not Ron or, preferably, Percy... (who I think will die shortly after coming to his senses about what's really important in life...) I think it would be Arthur... and he'd probably die protecting a group of the Muggles he loves so dearly. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "YOU! Out of the gene pool!" -- ABS FIRECAT From journalisto at hotmail.com Tue Oct 7 00:18:11 2003 From: journalisto at hotmail.com (The Journalist) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:18:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blood in the bottle? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82411 Chrissi: " an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, full of what Harry was quite sure was blood." OoP page 99, UK edition I highly doubt it was blood. I suppose it could be have been red wine, red liqueure or something like that. Is it an alcoholic drink instead? Dan: What makes you think it wasn't? I think it's very likely, actually. Blood is a very potent substance, not only biologically (as people have the nasty tendancy to die without it) but magically. Blood is life. With someone's blood, you have control over that person's life force (and all associations with it). Naturally, vampires run about the countryside drinking it. Magically sympathetic items don't get more hardcore than this. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Mon Oct 6 19:47:13 2003 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:47:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008f01c38c42$a3ad4e40$fdeea118@jamesz9ibq8rxr> No: HPFGUIDX 82412 -----Original Message----- From: T.J. [mailto:morgan.cole at nf.sympatico.ca] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 8:46 AM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 I've been running through a little list in my head...trying to think through who's likely to be dead and who's likely to be alive by the end of Book 7. My personal belief (I know others disagree) is that JKR still sees HP basically as a series of young-adult (not children's) novels, and is somewhat (though ont entirely) bound by the conventions of that genre, so that although there will be deaths in order to demonstrate the total evil of Voldemort and company, there will not be a wholesale mass slaughter of the "good" wizards, to the extent that the future will seem bleak at the end. So, basically I think there will be 2, possibly 3 more deaths of significant characters, but I'm trying to work out who's likely to die and who will survive. Anyone else care to join me in betting on the names on this list (or adding other names I've forgotten about)? Harry- Survives. I'm 100% certainly JKR is not going to kill off the main character. Hermione -- Survives. 99% certain. Ron -- Survives...I think. But I'm only about 60-70% certain. Ron is my favourite character and I do sometimes wake up at 4 a.m. with bleak thoughts and think that Ron might be killed off. I don't think it's likely, but it could happen. Dumbledore-- Dead, Dead, Dead. I'm 100% certain DD will not be alive at the end of Book 7, having died heroically to save Harry/the world/whatever. Hagrid--Survives...I think. But I'd say I'm only about 50-60% sure of this. All the pre-OOP predictions I had seen about who was going to die had the money on Hagrid. He is such a universal favourite I'm still a little concerned he may be a sacrificial lamb. Neville Longbottom--Dead. 80% certain. Neville is being groomed for a larger part in the series, with his role in the prophecy and his growing strength of character. I'm quite certain there will not be more than one Hogwarts student die in the series--I don't see JKR killing off too many younger characters. I'd say most likely Neville will be the only other student to die, again (like DD) heroically, but if he survives, then Ron won't. It's one or the other as far as I can see. Snape--Survives. But I'm only giving this about a 70% certainty. I could see him getting killed off. Draco--Survives. You can't kill his kind. I hope his father goes down in a big way, but I'm not counting him as a major character. Everyone else I can think off offhand--all the rest of the Weaseleys, the Dursleys, other Hogwarts students, Remus Lupin...I confidently expect to survive. I'd love to know other people's thoughts on who's going to make it and who's going to bite the big one. Tj Pilot writes: Not sure it's going to be that straight forward. I think we will lose some more of the OOTP members first. They are the ones out there fighting the Death Eaters every day, trying to find them. And if I'm right I would think they would start keeping an eye on the prison. Harry does live just in case JKR decides to write another book about Life after school. Hermione I agree she lives After all she is the brains a know it all at times but very smart. Ron Lives you can't kill off Harry's best friend can you? Dumbledore---- Lives and is the #1 wizard and maybe becomes the Minister of Magic. Hagrid Is going to die he is going to do something to protect Harry and it will get him killed. Neville Longbottom He is dead as I type. Snape Is dead he is going to die doing something great and everyone will know he was a good person. He and Harry may even patch things up first. Draco his whole family ends up in prison. Ok that's my 2 cents next: ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 6 20:28:17 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:28:17 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: > > Geoff wrote: > > When I first joined the group a few months ago, there were quite a > > lot of posts at the time involving [mark evans]; I had overlooked the > > commonality of names when I first read it. Being, like you, puzzled, > > I entered "Mark Evans" into the Search Archive and got a long string > > of post references. That might be a good start point. > > > > It would be quite fun if Harry discovered that he had a cousin or > > similar at the school! > > > urghiggi replied: > T'would be fun, but t'ain't cannon. Ddore tells Harry point blank in OoP that > Petunia is Lily's "only living relative." Geoff: Yes, but that could be wrong - Harry could have very distant relatives whom Petunia and/or Dumbledore didn't know about. I have relatives, particularly on my father's side of the family whom I only learned about a few months ago when I visited a distant cousin for the first time. They are several branches across the family tree but are still relatives. OK, we're told the WW is smaller than the RW but it is a possibility. From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 20:40:03 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 20:40:03 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82414 The HP Lexicon has OoTP confirming that Lupin and Black were in the same House as James Potter. Pettigrew's house is still up in the air. But I think it extremely likely that the Marauders were all Gryffindors and that they were the only boys in their year. This would have made it much easier for them to pull off some of their stunts, like staying out all night every full moon. In Harry's year, there are five boys and three girls in Gryffindor, so four boys in one year in Gryffindor would seem to be reasonable. "Kneazle" From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Oct 6 20:42:28 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:42:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore (was: Why is everyone ... Message-ID: <44.360dcf66.2cb32db4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82415 In a message dated 10/6/03 3:16:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, navarro198 at hotmail.com writes: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > >I think this is very unfair to him. Here you have a situation of > >fear, Voldemort steadily taking over, you don't know who to trust, > >etc. They are new parents, they know their baby is in mortal > danger. > >Naturally they turn to the 3 most trusted friends. They nominate > >Sirius as secret keeper. The OoP all know about it. Then they start > >suspecting Lupin. > > A thought that has been rattling around in my head for a while: What > was Lupin doing that made the others suspect he was the spy? In OoP > he is frequently away on Order business but no one seems to suspect > him of spying, so there must have been something else going on. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > Lupin is a Werewolf and already marginalized in the wizard world. Sirius thought that someone as strong in magic as Lupin is, would go to Voldemort for power. What Sirius didn't realize was that Lupin is a good, loyal person, he would never betray any secret that he knew or person, take the fact in POA it is Sirius who finally tells Dumbledore that Pettigrew, Potter and himself turned into Animagi. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 21:12:22 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 21:12:22 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal (and Post 400440-Voldemort's character) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82416 HG writes: What I see as more likely is that Harry was "marked as an equal" in the graveyard scene, when Voldemort was mocking Harry, forcing him to go through the motions of a duel. In that scene, even though it was all in ridicule, Voldemort did indeed mark Harry as an equal. Kneazle responds: Yes, good show HG! In The GoF scene, Voldemort goes thru the motions of a formal duel, even if it is in jest. A duel is, almost by definition, a fight between equals. Voldemort bows to Harry and makes Harry bow to him. Kneasy writes: I don't think it was in jest. For an absolutely superb analysis of the graveyard scene you *must* read Pip's 'The Spying Game Part II - I want you to DIE, Mr Potter' post No. 40044. It's long, detailed and convincing. It may change your views. Kneazle responds: Thank you for pointing out the post. It is wonderful, and it is extremely detailed. I don't agree with Pip's conclusions, as I am sure you probably expected. I don't think Voldemort was planning EVER to let Harry escape. Voldemort is a meglomaniac. His purpose in duelling Harry was to show his DE's that he is Lord Voldemort, the Dark Lord, unstoppable, omnipotent, yadda, yadda, yadda. Like other meglomaniacs, he cannot abide the perception that someone else, however accidently, bested him. He absolutely must to prove to everyone that he is unimaginably powerful. He had Pettigrew only take a little blood and not cut Harry's throat because Voldemort had to defeat Harry. Had to because he's nutters. It *was* a vicious joke, designed to belittle Harry Potter. Pip's post(Thanks,Pip!)did stir up one wonderful idea. The two-way port key has always troubled me. That post led me to the idea that Voldemort intended to send a very dead Harry Potter back to Dumbledore as a sort of calling card. DD would likely understand what had happened. And the implications regarding Voldemort's invincibility. The Ministry under Fudge would have called it an accident. Voldemort would have had a giggle about that. So for me, Neville is still in the running. Kneazle From strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 6 21:18:22 2003 From: strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 21:18:22 -0000 Subject: the reintroduction of Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiel2fisch" wrote: > Allie wrote: > > Sorry if anyone has wondered on this before. I was wondering if maybe > > Firenze has been reintroduced NOW because Centaurs can interpret the > > stars and prophecies and that sort of thing. I don't recall seeing > > him since the first book, and so why now, 4 books later, does he > > suddenly reappear, teaching Divination? I can envision in scene in > > which Harry, desperate to understand, tells Firenze the prophecy. > > Firenze may interpret it differently than DD, and may be the one to > > finally enlighten Harry (and all of us!) as to what it really means, > > possibly catalyzing future events? But then again, even Centaurs can > > be wrong... > > > > I'm afraid that Firenze would probably not be interested in > interpreting Trelawnies prophecy at all (judging by his comments > about astrology and other predictions of members belonging to our > *limited breed*). > > I rather think that Firenze was introduced to show that some > powerful and very magic creatures still are with the 'good side' > even if they'll get divided from their companions. (Same for > Gwarp.) (And Dobby.) >***sniped*** > > sunny and laura... I think Firenze will be at least somewhat interested in Trelawny's prediction as it has (I think) a major factor in the second war. After all, Firenze did say something like "Mars is bright tonight" in PS/SS and he did indicate in OOP that they were currently living in a time of relative peace between two wars. I think Firenze pretty interested in so-called human affairs for a centaur, thus is interested in the outcome of the war. laura ***wanders off to complete her assignment that's due in 12 hours*** From magickHpotter at aol.com Mon Oct 6 23:01:46 2003 From: magickHpotter at aol.com (Meshelle) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:01:46 -0000 Subject: House elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82418 Hey everyone! Ok I have some questions, I am not sure if you have all covered this one but, let's see. Ok there are about a dozen refrences in COS alone that reinforce how powerful house elves are. Dobby alone can somehow apparate and dissapparate on School grounds (and just abut anywhere) which just doesn't happen. Obdiously these creatures are very very Powerful ( and Helpful) So how did they became enslaved by wizards??? "Meshelle" From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue Oct 7 00:20:01 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:20:01 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 In-Reply-To: References: <20031006165404.64745.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031007131606.00a437c0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82419 At 17:58 6/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Hickengruendler: While I think another student will die, my money is >on Ginny Weasley (sorry Melanie). I think Harry will fall in love >with her and than lose her, too. > I have not given this much planning thought. But I agree, whoever Harry falls for and dates seriously will be a MAJOR target. So, in that respect, I hope he stays single until its all over. Tanya From amani at charter.net Tue Oct 7 00:57:58 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:57:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) References: Message-ID: <00a701c38c6e$0cedad20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82420 Hickengruendler: Still I think the Marauders were all in the same house. Calimora: So does JKR. She said so once. I think she also stuck Lily fermly into Gryffindor as well. Taryn: Lily, yes. That says nothing about MWPP. There's no reason they have to be in Gryffindor if Lily was. She wasn't, after all, part of the group. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 03:12:55 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:12:55 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82421 Meshelle wrote: > Obviously these creatures [House-Elves] are very very Powerful ( and Helpful) So how did they became enslaved by wizards??? That's a good question! Perhaps it's the same as with the Centaurs. Centaurs are highly intelligent creatures, yet they let Wizards assume superiority over them. They request that Wizards classify them as 'beasts' and live in iscolated forests. Centaurs have never challenged Wizards for power because they don't want it. Perhaps it's the same with the House- Elves. They have immense power, but don't want to use it. They have amazing abilities but really only want a peaceful life. Whether you believe that House-Elves would really like freedom or not, it seems apparent that they like living in peace. Even Dobby, after being set free just wants work and to settle down and help the people for whom he feels gratitude towards (Harry, Dumbledore). So, perhaps the House- Elves are pacifists who accept their enslavement merely because resisting it would cause pain and violence. Or, perhaps they allowed their own "enslavement" and wizards just took credit for it. By that I mean, let's say House-Elves are innately generous and kind creatures- they offer to do work for Wizards refuse any money out of the kindness of their hearts. After many generations of this kind of service Wizards say that they have enslaved them, when really their 'captives' were hardly putting up any resistence. Any other ideas? ~<(Laurasia)>~ From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 03:34:41 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:34:41 -0000 Subject: Is Dudley adopted? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82422 Does anyone else suspect that Dudley Dursley might be adopted? I think this might explain why the Dursley's have always spoilt him so much and why they don't have any other children. There is also the issue of Harry's blood protection. This protection really does seem to be limited to Petunia because it sure as heck didn't work in the alleyway when the Dementor's attacked Harry. If Dudley really was his blood relative then surely Harry should have been protected? In GoF Voldemort says that the ancient magic that protects Harry means that not even he can touch him at Privet Drive. So if Voldemort can't touch Harry how come the Dementor's could? In OoP Dumbledore says Lily's blood flows on in her sister - her only living relative. This is telling IMO. I don't think Petunia is Dudley's biological mother and that my friends, opens up a million other possibilities that I will get into at another time. What do you think? LPD From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 7 03:47:11 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:47:11 -0000 Subject: Go to Him, Bow to Him (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82423 Here's another installment in my ongoing "Azkaboon" musical, based on Lerner and Loewe's Brigadoon Go To Him, Bow to Him (PoA, Chap. 6) To the tune of Come To Me, Bend To Me from Brigadoon Dedicated to Constance Vigilance THE SCENE: Care of Magical Creatures class. HAGRID gives a lesson on hippogriffs for his CoMC debut, a lesson few will soon forget. HAGRID: I'm now the teacher of magic creatures, let's dispense with the polemics A hippogriff who will never stiff you if you regard proxemics Go to him, bow to him, show him respect Bucky, to Buckbeak, now make eye contact He bows to you, bends to you, now make his day! Tighten your grip an' let him fly away. (Emboldened by Harry's seemingly effortless success, DRACO approaches Buckbeak with little sign of deference) DRACO Come, griffin, near me ye do not scare me, you do not threaten my safety You're such a meek thing, a frail weakling, that I cannot wait to chafe ye. Oh, mock at you, jeer at you, kiss you-know-what! (Buckbeak/Malfoy. Malfoy screams in agony) HAGRID & THE TRIO Talons, his talons slash angry and hot, Jus' go to him, rescue him, off to Pomfrey! But will Buckbeak after this day run free? - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 7 03:53:28 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 03:53:28 -0000 Subject: Is Dudley adopted? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > > In GoF Voldemort says that the ancient magic that protects Harry > means that not even he can touch him at Privet Drive. So if > Voldemort can't touch Harry how come the Dementor's could? Presumably, Dolores Umbridge does not operate under the restrictions which so inhibit the Dark Lord. As a result, she could dispatch dementors to Privet Drive, and the spells which protect Harry from Voldemort would offer him no defense in this situation. Adopted!Dudley is not impossible, but seems unlikely. We are told in PS/SS Chap. 2 that Dudley looks a great deal like his father. - CMC From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 7 04:00:13 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 04:00:13 -0000 Subject: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore (was: Why is everyone ... In-Reply-To: <44.360dcf66.2cb32db4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > Lupin is a Werewolf and already marginalized in the wizard world. Sirius > thought that someone as strong in magic as Lupin is, would go to Voldemort for > power. What Sirius didn't realize was that Lupin is a good, loyal person, he > would never betray any secret that he knew or person, take the fact in POA it is > Sirius who finally tells Dumbledore that Pettigrew, Potter and himself turned > into Animagi. > I think both Sirius and Remus suspected each other by default, thinking roughly like this: Someone close to Lily and James is betraying their movements to Voldemort. I know it isn't me, and Peter is too weak and incompetent to dare to be a spy. So it has to be Remus / Sirius. Both of them grew more distant to the other, interpreting this mutual coldness as justification of their suspicions (though I wonder if Peter couldn't have helped a little). Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great after all. Alshain From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Tue Oct 7 04:20:02 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:20:02 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dudley adopted? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031007042002.1392.qmail@web41201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82426 lily_paige_delaney wrote: In GoF Voldemort says that the ancient magic that protects Harry means that not even he can touch him at Privet Drive. So if Voldemort can't touch Harry how come the Dementor's could? Me : OOP p 737UK (ch The Lost Prophecy) -start quote- "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, *there* you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. He shed her blood but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became your refuge. You need to return there only once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, whilst you are *there* he cannot hurt you. -end quote- **empasis mine 1. I think that *there* means 4 privet Drive. So Harry has to be inside to be protected. Which is why after the dementor incident Harry was told, by Arthur, Sirius and Petunia, not to leave the house. 2. I wonder if the PrivetDrive charm only works against Voldemort. He was the one who shed her blood, therefore, Lily's blood is Harry's refuge from Voldemort only. This means that the DE can hurt Harry in PD, but Dumbledore must have known that Voldemort would want to kill Harry himself. Just my 2 cents Vinnia http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Oct 7 04:29:18 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 04:29:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One - Dudley Demented (yes, this is a repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" > > He is hiding because his relationship with his Aunt and Uncle is so > bad that they won't willingly watch television with him. They grind > their teeth and question him. We hear Uncle Vernon express suspicion > at Harry's interest in the news. > > Is this a change in the relationship between Harry and his foster > parents? In PoA Harry is eating with the family and watching TV with > them. We aren't given any indication of how Harry has been acting towards the Dursleys since returning from school after the confrontation in the graveyard with Voldemort and the death of Cedric. I can't imagine his attitude and outlook haven't changed. And surely the Dursleys have noticed it. Harry is desperately trying to get any information about Voldemort. He's not getting any information from anyone he trusts in the wizard world. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he has acted in ways that are different from what the Dursleys expect. And, thus, they are more than happy to not have him in their presence any more than necessary. > Harry sees Mrs Figg, and the reader is told that she has recently > taken to asking him round for tea. Harry wants to avoid her. Is this > a foreshadowing? Is Harry unknowingly avoiding support and help > that he could have been given? I think he still thinks of her at that batty neighbor with the cats. Harry wants connections with his friends and wizard adults he trusts, not tea at a house that smells like cabbage. And, I'm not sure how much help Mrs. Figg could have given him - he's still not supposed to be given any information. > The news comes on and is harmless. There is nothing of interest to > Harry; we find out that he has been waiting for some incident that > shows Lord Voldemort has come out into the open. > > Was Uncle Vernon right not to trust Harry? Harry did have an > ulterior motive for watching the news, which he hasn't shared with > them. Uncle Vernon's an idiot. Watching the news for whatever reason shouldn't matter. And Harry has years of experience in knowing how his wonderful family will receive any discussion of the magical world. Why would he even consider trying to talk to these particular adults about it? > Harry hears a loud crack, his aunt screams and he leaps to his feet, > pulling his wand out. Did Petunia recognise the crack as the sound > of someone apparating? Oh, I'm sure she knows more than she's ever let on. > Vernon thinks that Harry made the loud noise. Petunia seems more > interested in why Harry was lurking under the window. Both Aunt and > Uncle accuse Harry of being up to something. They demand to know > what news the Owls are bringing him. Harry has to admit that the > Owls aren't bringing him any news. Harry loses his temper and stalks > off. He knows he'll be in trouble later. > > Is this a signal that Harry's temper is going to cause him a lot of > trouble this year? I think it sets the stage that Harry is going to be a lot angrier than we've ever seen him. And that he will often give free rein to his anger without stopping to think about the consequences of his angry words or actions. > Harry is angry at Ron and Hermione ? so angry that he threw their > presents away (which he now regrets). Again, is this another > foreshadowing ? is Harry's anger mainly harming himself? He feels > that they are enjoying themselves at the Burrow while he is stuck at > Privet Drive. Does this prove to be fair? No, but Harry is also operating in a vaccuum. It may not be nice or sensible or logical or fair to start thinking these sorts of thoughts about his friends, but I can understand it. > > Harry feels that he is much more capable than Ron and Hermione, > having survived the graveyard at the end of GoF. His godfather is > advising caution, which Harry feels is reasonable ? though he finds > it galling to be warned about rashness by Sirius. > > Is Sirius assuming Harry is James? Is Harry normally rash? Harry has been known to act without thinking things through in the past. He also tends to act without consulting the various adults who truly do have his interests at heart. He was miffed with Sirius in GoF for exactly the same reason - when Sirius sent him a note chiding him about going off in the evening to meet with Krum. I think it an odd list of things that Harry runs through when he finds it galling for Sirius to tell him not to be rash. Imprisonment in Azkaban, escape from Azkaban, attempting to kill Peter, escape with Buckbeak. The one thing that may be considered rash in that list is attempting to kill Peter. However, I do think that this is the start of JKR's laying the groundwork for the constant "Sirius is rash and reckless" refrain that a lot of characters take to repeating in OoP. > We find that Harry is having nightmares about Cedric's death in the > graveyard. He's also dreaming about a strange dark corridor. His > scar prickles constantly. He doesn't think that Ron, Hermione or > Sirius would be interested in that. Is this a reasonable assessment, > or is he again pushing away support and help that was available? He may be pushing away support, but he doesn't think it's there for him. No one will tell him anything. Why would he think that news about his scar, which they've all heard before, will cause any sort of response? > After a mere four weeks, Harry is full of impatience. He feels > abandoned by Dumbledore, his friends and his guardian. Has he been > abandoned? It is a mere four weeks, but the events that happened right before the start of those four weeks were quite traumatic. And what happens? Harry gets sent home and is, for all intents and purposes, cut off from any worthwhile information. He doesn't know what's going on, he doesn't know about the protection of Privet Drive, he doesn't know anything because no one will tell him. And, he knows that they all know more than he does. And they won't or can't tell him. Again, his response may not be rational or mature, but I can't blame him for feeling angry and cut off. >> Harry longs to hex Dudley, or show Dudley's gang how scared Dudley > is of Harry. But he knows that if he uses magic outside of school, > he risks being expelled. So he lets Dudley's gang walk by, and > doesn't call attention to himself. He thinks to himself that this is > exactly the opposite of what Sirius would have done. > > Harry feels unhappy because he's taken the sensible option. He knows > Sirius wouldn't have taken the sensible option. Does this show > Sirius as a good or a bad role model for Harry? He *thinks* that Sirius wouldn't have taken the sensible option. Even though, for the past year, the advice that he's received from Sirius has been geared towards Harry taking care of himself, staying away from dangerous situations, not doing anything to leave himself vulnerable...oops, I forgot. Here's that refrain again. "Sirius is rash and reckless." > Dudley counter-attacks Harry, by telling Harry that he's been crying > out in his sleep `Don't kill Cedric'. Harry's also been calling out > for his dead mother and father to save him from Voldemort. This > makes Harry so angry that he pulls out his wand. > > Why doesn't Harry explain the nightmares to Dudley? Like Dudley would listen? Or care? > Harry tries to produce the Patronus, but he can't think of happy > enough thoughts. The Dementors hands are closing on his throat when > he realises that if he doesn't do something, he'll never see Ron and > Hermione again. > > Is this a *happy* thought? Harry produces his best and most powerful > Patronus's not when he is concentrating on a happy memory, but when > he's thinking that he's about to lose something that makes him > happy. His friends. Is this in keeping with Lupin's instructions in > PoA, that a Patronus is produced by concentrating on a happy thought? Perhaps making a young student concentrate on a happy thought is the easiest way to get them to produce a Patronus. The reaction that Harry has here is similar to what happens in the Dept of Mysteries. His feelings that are bound up with other people (here it's Ron and Hermione, in the Dept of Mysteries it's Sirius) > The Patronus saves Harry, and Harry then turns his Patronus on the > Dementor attacking Dudley. Dudley is clamping his hands over his > mouth. Muggles are not supposed to see Dementors ? is this a sign > that Dudley has magic in him? Or is it a sign that Dudley trusts > Harry more than Harry thinks? I'm not wild about the idea of Dudley coming late to magic, but that's just me. I read this as a sign of Dudley's terrified desperation where he'll do anything he's told to do to fight against this thing he doesn't understand. > Is Harry rescuing Dudley a sign of Harry's inner goodness? Or does > Harry care for his cousin more than he thinks he does? I think Harry would have tried to help anyone he saw being attacked by Dementors, even awful Dudley. Marianne From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 7 06:18:10 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 06:18:10 -0000 Subject: Does a prophecy have to be fulfilled? (Why is everyone so convinced ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > The part I continue to wonder about though, is whether a prophecy > *has* to be fulfilled. Since you compared the Prophecy to the time > turner, we have this remark from canon: > > "...Hasn't your experience with the Time-Turner taught you anything, > Harry? The consequences of our actions are so complicated, so > diverse, that predicting the future is very difficult, indeed....." > (Dumbledore, POA chap. 21, p. 426). If you reread the prophecy, notice how vague it is. It predicts the birth of a rival to Voldemort, giving fairly precise information on how that child is to be identified. But it does not tell how and if that child will actually defeat him. The prophecy already appears to have been mostly fulfilled. That child was indeed born and marked as foretold. By all signs, he is as powerfull as Voldemort - though a lot less experienced and knowledgable. What is left unclear is how - and if - he can accomplished the task for which he was born. >But if a Prophecy *must* be fulfilled, and a certain path > *must* be taken, i.e. there has to be an eavesdropper who only hears > the first part and Voldemort must act on that part, etc., then a > person's choices along the way aren't required. It is a pre- ordained > outcome. Well, the eavesdropper was the way fate has chosen for how to bring about the prophecy. It could have happened differently of course, but the fatal "marking as equal" had to happen. I disagree that choices are not required. Without DD's intervention Harry would never have even survived to reach Hogwarts. Notice the prophecy was fulfilled mostly (other than for the either/neither part) when Harry was 15 months old. If DD did not have the foresight of placing Harry with the Dursleys, then Voldemort even in his vapor form could have caused Harry's death long before he grew up. That would not contradict the prophecy but it is certainly not how we'd want it to happen. DD's role is to ensure that Harry lives and learns enough to have a fighting chance against Voldemort. How he does it and whether Harry will succeed are no part of the prophecy. >f Voldemort needs to attempt to kill > Harry to "seal his doom" as you said, then the fates aren't observers > but participants who are actively trying to bring about LV's end. Well, this is an alternate world with its own rules. Why wouldn't they? I was certain since book 3 that Trelawney's first prophecy must have predicted Harry as a rival to Voldemort - otherwise why would LV try to kill a baby? A prophecy is the only explanation that makes sense in the context of this story. I did not expect the Neville twist though... > Also, if all the prophecies at the MOM are certain of being > fulfilled, why are they stored? I guess they could be safeguarding > them, but if the future has already predicted the events that will > take place to fulfill a prophecy, then there's no need to safeguard > them. And they wouldn't be keeping results data if they are all > fulfilled. How would that piece fit in? They may be safeguarded because they have not yet happened and for them to happen, it is essential they don't become general knowledge (just like Harry and Voldemort's prophecy which is only partly fulfilled). Or for research, or because secret documents tend to keep that designation for years after the event. Salit From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 00:47:03 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 00:47:03 -0000 Subject: the reintroduction of Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82429 Allie wrote: Sorry if anyone has wondered on this before. I was wondering if maybe Firenze has been reintroduced NOW because Centaurs can interpret the stars and prophecies and that sort of thing. I don't recall seeing him since the first book, and so why now, 4 books later, does he suddenly reappear, teaching Divination? I can envision in scene in which Harry, desperate to understand, tells Firenze the prophecy. Firenze may interpret it differently than DD, and may be the one to finally enlighten Harry (and all of us!) as to what it really means, possibly catalyzing future events? But then again, even Centaurs can be wrong... kneazle writes: I do agree that having a centaur around will be useful to Harry. I would also guess that one of the characters is going to become a seer. Firenze is therefore around to provide whatever training is required. I cannot imagine a seer being adequately trained by Trelawney. My money, by the way, is on Ron. None of his brothers have done that yet. Kneazle, who's always rooting for Ron From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 00:58:02 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 00:58:02 -0000 Subject: House elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82430 Meshelle wrote: Obdiously these creatures are very very Powerful ( and Helpful) So how did they became enslaved by wizards??? Kneazle: Hagrid says it's their nature to serve. Apparently it's a species trait. But your question is interesting. One can serve without being enslaved,like Dobby. Or one can be enslaved without serving,like Kreacher. I sort of wonder is Hermione knows house elf history, knows that slavery was forced on the house elves, and that is one of the reasons she started SPEW. I hope we get the read the answer to your question by the end of the series. From bobbynterri at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 02:26:24 2003 From: bobbynterri at yahoo.com (bobbynterri) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 02:26:24 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > The HP Lexicon has OoTP confirming that Lupin and Black were in the > same House as James Potter. Pettigrew's house is still up in the air. > > But I think it extremely likely that the Marauders were all > Gryffindors and that they were the only boys in their year. This > would have made it much easier for them to pull off some of their > stunts, like staying out all night every full moon. > > In Harry's year, there are five boys and three girls in Gryffindor, > so four boys in one year in Gryffindor would seem to be reasonable. > > "Kneazle" Just a thought but perhaps Peter is a Gryffindor for an act of bravery that he has not yet done. Remember Dumbledore telling Harry that he may oneday be very glad that Peter is indebted to him for Harry having saved his life. From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 05:42:40 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 05:42:40 -0000 Subject: Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.J." wrote: > who's likely to be dead and who's likely to be alive by the > end of Book 7. I think: Harry survives. Hermione lives. Ron - good chance that he'll die, foreshadowed in the chess scene in PS/SS. Ron's sacrifice may set up the path for Harry to topple LV. Dumbledore - lives. Good chance he'll become Minister of Magic, no reason to stay at Hogwart's if Harry doesn't need to be protected there any longer. Hagrid - lives?, he'll have to be the liason between non-Wizards and Wizards in the revamped world. (although with all those Harry cares for *most* dying, he's a good candidate) Neville Longbottom - lives; he rescues his parents from their induced insanity and gets to enjoy their company. (SILK GOWNS all the way) I will cry so hard if his parent's come back to sanity and then Neville is offed. Snape - lives; He'll be the best DADA teacher ever, with Occlumency and Legilimency added to the curriculum. (Evil is always in the world, even when the Big Baddy is gong.) Draco, Crabbe and Goyle - live; but may be not as evil as their parents Fred & George - live; comic relief needs to be alive (end of GOF: we'll need something to laugh about...) Bill, Charlie, Percy - live Mrs. Weasley - I think she might die, she saw all the others dying but not herself. (Boggart) Ginny - lives Luna - lives Mr. Weasley - lives OOP members - ? I hope Lupin lives! and finds a cure for being a werewolf (can't Hermione find SOMETHING!!) Tonks, Kingsley, not sure, any of the others could go as sacrifices to the dark side. I think a student or two more will have to die, but it might be members of the DA that we don't know as well; /except/ that the DE's saw only the trio, Neville, Ginny and Luna at the MOM, so they are in the gravest danger of being singled out for retaliation. SOOO, hmmm... maybe it WILL be one of these six. (I still say that Ron is the most likely.) Dursleys - they live. Harry would like if they died, but it wouldn't be good for his character growth. my two cents! HedwigsTalons From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 7 06:46:21 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 06:46:21 -0000 Subject: Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee Daniels" wrote: > > Before OotP I would have said Harry Lives. Period. But now I'm not > so sure, the existance of an afterlife and reunion with his family > opens up the possiblity of 'Happy Death' like Lewis' Narnia > Chronicals. In he end of the last book (The Last Battle?) he killed > off not only the major charactors of that instalment, but the major > charactors of every single book that came before it and did a big > happy runion scene after the end of the world. Not saying its > likely, but its a possiblity. Harry Lives: 65% > Ah, but remember that, in the "Last Battle", Aslan brings the Narnian world to an end. A similar scenario would see the Wizarding World totally and utterly ended. From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Tue Oct 7 06:46:45 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 06:46:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One - Dudley Demented (yes, this is a repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Order of the Phoenix Chapter One > > Chapter Discussion Summary and Questions > > This chapter starts with Harry hiding under a flowerbed, trying to > hear the TV news without being seen. It establishes that Harry isn't > a cute little boy any longer; he looks pinched and unhealthy, his > jeans are dirty and the soles of his trainers flapping. > > Is this a choice of Harry's? Previously his clothes have been > secondhand and too big for him, but there was no mention of their > being worn out or dirty. I think this shows how increasingly estranged he has become from the Dursleys, so that now they don't even bother to make sure he's cleaned up (= or maybe he has refused to be around long enough for them to do anything about it). > > He is hiding because his relationship with his Aunt and Uncle is so > bad that they won't willingly watch television with him. They grind > their teeth and question him. We hear Uncle Vernon express suspicion > at Harry's interest in the news. > > Is this a change in the relationship between Harry and his foster > parents? In PoA Harry is eating with the family and watching TV with > them. The relationship must be getting worse and worse, not the least because the= last time the Dursleys had to spend any kind of time with Harry they ended = up with the living room destroyed and Dudley gagging on a giant tongue. snip > > Was Uncle Vernon right not to trust Harry? Harry did have an > ulterior motive for watching the news, which he hasn't shared with > them. On the one hand, Uncle Vernon is reaping the ill will he's sown on Harry si= nce he was one year old. On the other, the Dursley's various encounters with Harry's "lot" can;t possibly create trust in Uncle Vernon, as he ennumerate= s to Harry in the following chapter. [snip] > > Unfortunately, he hits his head on the open window. Uncle Vernon > grabs him and demands that he puts his wand away. Suddenly he finds > Harry impossible to hold. > > Why? > Harry tends to do magic without trying and without a wand when he is under = great stress, like here (Uncle Vernon was choking him) and later with the Lumos (when he was facing the dementors). Conveniently, we have seen none of this wandless magic in other sticky situations, notable the encount= ers with LV ( sure could have used it while tied to that gravestone). Maybe wandless magic only works in the Muggle world? [snip] > Harry is angry at Ron and Hermione ? so angry that he threw their > presents away (which he now regrets). Again, is this another > foreshadowing ? is Harry's anger mainly harming himself? He feels > that they are enjoying themselves at the Burrow while he is stuck at > Privet Drive. Does this prove to be fair? Harry is very moody in this book, not just angry. A mixture of hormones and= post-traumatic stress, no doubt. In this chapter Harry tends to wallow in h= is own anger and frustration, which is typical teenager and typically unfair t= o his friends. > After a mere four weeks, Harry is full of impatience. He feels > abandoned by Dumbledore, his friends and his guardian. Has he been > abandoned? > I think here we find a foreshadowing about how the lack of information Harr= y is forced to deal with causes more trouble than it would have if DD had tol= d Harry the truth. Had Harry known that he is protected only in Privet Drive,= that people were following him for his own protection, and that both the Ministr= y and LV have dark designs for him, he may not have dawdled in a dark alley teasing Dudley. The dementors might not have found him outside, and the whole hearing affair would have been avoided (granted, the book would have = been much less interesting ;-) but you get my meaning) [snip] > > Harry tries to produce the Patronus, but he can't think of happy > enough thoughts. The Dementors hands are closing on his throat when > he realises that if he doesn't do something, he'll never see Ron and > Hermione again. > > Is this a *happy* thought? Harry produces his best and most powerful > Patronus's not when he is concentrating on a happy memory, but when > he's thinking that he's about to lose something that makes him > happy. His friends. Is this in keeping with Lupin's instructions in > PoA, that a Patronus is produced by concentrating on a happy thought? > I agree with kirikat2001 that this is analogous to the emotion that allows = him to escape LV's possession. Dementors feed off of people's best emotions and produce the worst emotions (fear, hopelessness, etc). The patronus is an embodiment of those best emotions, but the dementors can;t feed off it. Clearly happiness is only one of those emotions. > The Patronus saves Harry, and Harry then turns his Patronus on the > Dementor attacking Dudley. Dudley is clamping his hands over his > mouth. Muggles are not supposed to see Dementors ? is this a sign > that Dudley has magic in him? Or is it a sign that Dudley trusts > Harry more than Harry thinks? > > Is Harry rescuing Dudley a sign of Harry's inner goodness? Or does > Harry care for his cousin more than he thinks he does? I think this scene, as much as the revelation that Petunia has knowingly sa= ved Harry's life by taking him in, shows that the Dursleys are not as unredeema= bly awful as we think. Sure, Harry wouldn't have left anyone to be kissed by a = dementor, but at the same time Harry's first reaction is too tell Dudley ho= w to defend himself... I smell some sort of reconciliation coming, maybe not wit= h Uncle Vernon, but definitely with the rest of Lily's blood relatives. Gorda From acpurplekitty at juno.com Tue Oct 7 07:25:32 2003 From: acpurplekitty at juno.com (acpurplekitty at juno.com) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 02:25:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blood in the bottle? Message-ID: <20031007.022532.-185627.0.acpurplekitty@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82435 It seems to me that the discussion on this issue is due largely to a difference in perception. I am assuming that those who don't believe it's blood, but a liquor of some sort, are picturing a larger bottle, while those arguing the blood side are envisioning a much smaller one. I personally imagined a small bottle, like a vial, and did not question the contents at the time. *~Aeryn~* ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 13:12:54 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:12:54 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82436 > urghiggi : Ddore tells Harry point blank in OoP that > Petunia is Lily's "only living relative." (Or at the very least that Petunia was > Lily's only living relative at the time of the Harry hand-off.) So how can Mark > Evans (and, relevant to some wilder theories, Severus Snape) be related to > Harry? snip > Clearly JKR can't have Mark be related to HP IF she wants to preserve the > idea that Ddore's statements can be trusted to be correct. If HP and Mark > Evans are blood relatives, then Ddore is just flat-out wrong in the statement > above ... so if she wants to imply that, and validate theories about Ddore's > fallibility and hidden agendas, then perhaps Mark WILL emerge as a relative. > > One other "out" I've seen proposed, that ostensibly would allow Mark to be > related AND allow Ddore's credibility to remain intact, is the interp that > Petunia WAS the only living relative at the time Harry was turned over to the > Durselys and that Mark was born later (which of course he would have to > have been, given his age). But for Mark to be a living relative, then one of his > PARENTS, who surely were around at that time, also has to be a living > relative, which blows up the argument.... snip some more Ginger writes: I have been trying to reconcile the "Petunia is the only living relative" with the existance of 10 year old Mark as more than coincidence. Here's what I came up with. I'll put it chronologicly as it makes more sense that way. Lily and Petunia have a brother. We'll call him Jasper. Jasper marries. We'll call her Ethel. Lily and Petunia marry James and Vernon. Jasper dies (time unsure) Dudley and Harry born. V-mort vanquished, James and Lilly killed. Harry left with Dursleys. Ethel Evans (the widow Evans), who has kept her late husband's surname, gives birth to Mark. Not Jasper's son, but with the father unknown, he gets the Evans surname. Now we have Petunia as the only realtive, but the name of Mark Evans being significant. Petunia may have never liked Ethel or may have dropped her after Jasper's death, or even when she became pregnant with Mark, at which time Harry would have been around 3 and wouldn't have remembered it. The point? Mark is significant, in that he introduces Harry to Ethel, who knew Lily and (likely) James and can give him the info he hasn't been asking from anyone else. Not to mention that he's get away from the Dursleys during his summer sentance. It's a stretch, and I'd love to hear a better idea, but that's my best shot. Happy thoughts, Ginger, who laughed so hard on Iggy's "Isis! Isis! (Ra! Ra! Ra!)" that she almost choked. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 7 13:22:00 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:22:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One/MuggleWorld, Wizard World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82437 Some rather sleepy musings from me, I'm afraid. Pip wrote: >>Harry tends to do magic without trying and without a wand when he is under great stress, like here (Uncle Vernon was choking him) and later with the Lumos (when he was facing the dementors). Conveniently, we have seen none of this wandless magic in other sticky situations, notable the encounters with LV ( sure could have used it while tied to that gravestone). Maybe wandless magic only works in the Muggle world?>> Now, this got me thinking. For the suggestion "Wandless magic only works in the Muggle world" to be true, the WW and MW would have to be composed of seperate spheres. Previously, I had always imagined that certain areas of the WW - 9 3/4, Diagon Alley - to be like small pockets - like air pockets under the sea. But while much of the WW's problems with Muggles comes from their having to share the same physical space, these small pockets succumb to different laws of spatial dimension than the rest of the (Muggle) world. "Yeah, that's cos they're *magic*" I hear you snort. But bear with me while I potter through this one. As Pip pointed out, magic itself seems to be filtered differently in different areas. Now "magic", as an abstract entity, could not possibly "know" whether or not it was in WW- designated space or not, yet Harry never manages wandless magic in his own defence in the WW. People, and magical loopholes, tend to come to his aid. It could be argued here that the GoF graveyard *was* Muggle territory - ultra-Muggle Tom Riddle snr was buried there. However, Voldemort must have made it in some way unplottable to ensure his birthing party proceeded undisturbed. It was certainly wizard-occupied territory. Do unplottable territories have some sort of rarified air which alters conditions within them? Does the area that is the WW (a phrase which we tend to use to mean only those spaces occupied by people and institutions - physical, figurative) occupy a moveable, yet specific, geographic/environmental space, seperated almost entirely from that of the MW? Is it like a series of small air pockets, or are the gateways - the shop window, the brick wall, the barrier - actually portals to another dimension? I think it's fairly obvious that the WW does not have another,secondary Britain existing just underneath the Muggle one and spanning the whole country. However, either wizards themselves or a highly concentrated wizarding presence has the ability to change the properties of an area, it seems. Together, or in essence divided? Kirstini, arch Crypto-bore. From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 7 13:29:59 2003 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:29:59 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82438 I suspect the following two will be dead at the end of Book 7: (1) Dumbledore: He has to be alive at the end of Book 6 to have his annual talk with Harry, but JKR is making him look older and older. Also, Harry cannot have backup of such a powerful wizard in his final battle with LV if he is to be a hero. (2) Ron: The clue is his expertise in Wizards Chess and the sacrifice he made in the chess game at the end of PS/SS. He will transfer his skills in chess to become a leader in Dumbledore's Army. And in the final battle, he will sacrifice himself for real so that Harry can get to LV. (JKR is preparing Molly Weasley for the death of at least one of her children with the Boggart in OOTP.) Booby Jones From urghiggi at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 14:10:31 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:10:31 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82439 Robert wrote: > (1) Dumbledore: He has to be alive at the end of Book 6 to have his > annual talk with Harry, but JKR is making him look older and older. > Also, Harry cannot have backup of such a powerful wizard in his > final battle with LV if he is to be a hero. > urghiggi: Yep, he's toast. OR -- he's not dead, but he's not there for the big showdown, either, for some convoluted reason...... Really, "gone but not forgotten" would be preferable, I think, to simply "missing the climax." > (2) Ron: The clue is his expertise in Wizards Chess and the > sacrifice he made in the chess game at the end of PS/SS. He will > transfer his skills in chess to become a leader in Dumbledore's > Army. And in the final battle, he will sacrifice himself for real > so that Harry can get to LV. (JKR is preparing Molly Weasley for > the death of at least one of her children with the Boggart in OOTP.) urghiggi: Alas, I too fear that Ron may be doomed. If you subscribe to the seer!Ron hypothesis, he is definitely doomed. Remember in OoP where he made a joke about seeing the tea leaves in Divination spell out "die, Ron, die?" My heart sank when I read that, since he has a pretty danged good track record with these joke prophecies. On the other hand, this also means that Arthur is destined to be the head of the MoM -- foretold by Ron in the joke prophecy where he said Gryffindor had as much chance of winning the Quiddich cup as Arthur had of becoming head of the MoM. Gryffindor did ultimately win the cup.... you connect the dots. I keep hoping against hope that "die Ron die" is a red herring, inserted to tweak JKR's fans who are "on" to the whole seer!Ron phenomenon. BUT I also subscribe to the "Harry lives" theory -- that JKR's long saga of character development would be pretty pointless if all that effort and anguish just led to Harry's physical death, even if it were a triumphant/sacrificial death. OTOH, I think she is very into the message that victory is hard, requiring teamwork and sacrifice, and that in the end even victory may be bittersweet (the Frodo phenomenon -- "I won, but I can't be happy..."). Ron's death, esp if he deliberately sacrifices himself, would be consistent with a "Harry wins but the price is huge" scenario. This function could also be fulfilled by Neville, which would probably be more palatable to most (maybe not all) readers. As a Ron-Hermione SHIPper, I'm also left wondering who Hermione would end up with if Ron dies. I can't see the Harry-Herm thing; at this point there appears to be no spark there whatsoever; they're more like close siblings. And none of the other characters fits the bill. Viktor I think was a fling. So ... would she end up teaching at Hogwarts, a brilliant mentor but presumably permanently unmarried, like McGonagall? (Or maybe she'd marry a yet- unintroduced muggle or wizard. Or maybe she'd turn to Harry for comfort after the death of Ron, and they'd be drawn together by their mutual grief. Or maybe, as I've seen proposed on a slash site, she discovers she's gay and hooks up with Luna....) One would hope there would at least be a moment for Ron & Hermione to acknowledge their powerful attraction for each other, before Ron shuffles off this mortal coil. urghiggi, Chgo From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 15:09:26 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:09:26 -0000 Subject: Longbottom/Potter Friendship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82440 Bohcoo wrote: > How does this sound? > It struck me when re-reading about the torture of the Longbottoms > that perhaps they, and their infant son Neville, were visiting the > Potters that fateful evening when Lord Voldemort came to call. Why > else would Belladrix torture them to insanity, convinced that they > knew where Voldemort was, unless they had been there when Voldemort > disappeared? > > Since the Potters were dead and Voldemort suddenly gone, it makes > sense that the Longbottoms would know where he was, but only if they had been present at his disappearance. Why else would they be > targeted as a source of this information? hg replies: The first thing that would eliminate this as a possibility is that there was a secret keeper, keeping the location of the Potters unknowable to anyone. Unless the Potters and the Longbottoms were in hiding together -- which doesn't seem to make sense, as then the Longbottoms would have more say in who the secret keeper should be. However, you bring up an interesting point that Kneazle255 and I have been discussing off-board -- the Longbottoms were indeed targeted, and they were a source of information, some information that the DEs really wanted and couldn't get, perhaps some information that is still critical. The question we've brought up is why would the Lestranges leave them alive? Furthermore, what information would the DEs have that would lead them to believe that the Longbottoms might know where Voldemort was? This is your original question, and although I don't think the answer lies in the Longbottoms being at GH that night, I do think it's a question that needs to be asked. Kneazle and I have tried to backtrack and answer those questions. One possibility we've arrived at is that perhaps the Longbottoms, being Aurors, interrogated Sirius after the events of 10/31/81, and gained some information that sent them into an investigation. We recalled that Sirius had no trial, but that doesn't negate the possibility of him being questioned, only the possibility of Crouch et al listening to his testimony/defense. As Aurors and as Order members, their interview with Sirius would be allowed by the Ministry and simultaneously valuable to the Order (under radar). hg. From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 15:52:23 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:52:23 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bobbynterri" > > Just a thought but perhaps Peter is a Gryffindor for an act of > bravery that he has not yet done. Remember Dumbledore telling Harry > that he may oneday be very glad that Peter is indebted to him for > Harry having saved his life. (Now PK) Actually, while I realize the Sorting Hat said that Godric wanted students "with brave deeds to their name," I have been convinced for some time now that the Sorting Hat itself goes primarily -- beyond either strong personality characteristics or personal preference -- by what the student /values/. (Yes, this is distinct from House preference, though not completely.) I've always found this to explain the Hat's decisions best, and it makes sense for a mind-reading object. (The Founders themselves, of course, before making the Hat, would have presumably gone by whatever they could observe themselves. And great, now I'm speculating on the Founders and Legilimency....) This is relevant, really. ;) I think that Peter was Sorted (accurately, in this case) into Gryffindor because courage was important to him. I also think that he has never, ever felt that his courage was /adequate/, and that seeing himself as inadequate in this respect has contributed to his doing some very cowardly things. PK From sylviablundell at aol.com Tue Oct 7 15:53:03 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:53:03 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82442 My 12-year-old has asked me a question I find difficult to answer. Perhaps someone could help. The question was: why did Sirius go through all that trouble, swimming for miles and then journeying north when he could have simply apparated once he was outside the prison and re-appeared outside the grounds of Hogwarts.THEN he could have slipped in disguised as a dog.Would he require the wand he presumably didn't possess to apparate? It all sounds too simple, so I suppose there must be some good reason why he didn't use this method. I'm probably overlooking something obvious, but would be glad if someone could tell me what that is. Sylvia From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 7 15:15:10 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:15:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chances of being alive at the end of Book 7 References: Message-ID: <006901c38ce5$cdb9a140$eeed79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82444 From: "Renee Daniels" > > Before OotP I would have said Harry Lives. Period. But now I'm not > so sure, the existance of an afterlife and reunion with his family > opens up the possiblity of 'Happy Death' like Lewis' Narnia > Chronicals. In he end of the last book (The Last Battle?) he killed > off not only the major charactors of that instalment, but the major > charactors of every single book that came before it and did a big > happy runion scene after the end of the world. Not saying its > likely, but its a possiblity. Harry Lives: 65% > Iggy: As a little side note here, a little off topic but relevant here... C.S. Lewis wrote the Narnia books as a way to present the Bible and the tenets of Christianity to children. The different books in the series correspond, rather roughly, with different Books of the bible. "The Last Battle" represents the Book of Revelations, including the false prophets (the ape... I forget his name...), and the Rapture, wherein all those who are good and just are taken into Heaven to be with God and Jesus, to dwell in joy for all eternity. While many people seem to draw a conclusion that Harry is a Christ figure, I don't think that JKR has that in mind... And I definately don't think she'd be blatant about it, of course. (After all, most of the discussions we have here are about how subtle she is...) Also, unlike C.S. Lewis, I can't see her as having a goal to teach kids about a specific faith or defined rules of morality. She seems to want more to present some things she sees are wrong in the world, or life lessons that are important to learn... and then pepper her book rather liberally with the basic message of "open your eyes and see what you will see. Learn these things for yourself, and see that right and wrong are individual concepts... and not infallable ones." As for whether or not JKR goes the "happy death" route for the ending of the series... I honestly don't think she will. At the most, I think we'll get a slightly sappy scene where Harry sees his deceased loved ones again, however brief, and they tell him that he still has work to do in the WW... but to hang on, because they will be waiting and watching. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am." -- ABS FIRECAT From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Tue Oct 7 16:23:09 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:23:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven References: Message-ID: <001e01c38cef$4ca37900$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 82445 urghiggi wrote: I keep hoping against hope that "die Ron die" is a red herring, inserted to tweak JKR's fans who are "on" to the whole seer!Ron phenomenon. Joj writes: That's what I think JKR is doing. She has said numerous times in interviews that people always ask her if Ron is going to die. I think she put the whole tea leaves thing in there to mess with us! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 7 12:29:19 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:29:19 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "c_naegle" wrote: Casper: > V did not hear the entire proph. and did not know at the time that > Harry may or may not have been the one in the proph. Remember at > the time there were two boys who the prophecy could have been about. V > made Harry the one when he choose to go to Godric's Hollow to try > and kill him. That was the marking of the equal, but V had no idea > about that part of it. Harry himself questions why V didn't wait until > the two of them grew up and he saw who was the strongest wizard. Geoff: This reminds me of something that has puzzled me. It has been suggested here and in many other posts that Voldemort acted rashly by attacking Harry at the age of 15 months and not leaving him to grow up and then decide which of the two boys represented the threat. A follow up to this is, why under those circumstances, did he wait so long? Why was he not in there, firing from the hip, when Harry was just a tiny child? From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 12:31:25 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:31:25 -0000 Subject: Wandless magic in Chapter One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82447 adsong wrote: On the one hand, Uncle Vernon is reaping the ill will he's sown on Harry since he was one year old. On the other, the Dursley's various encounters Harry tends to do magic without trying and without a wand when he is under great stress, like here (Uncle Vernon was choking him) and later with the Lumos (when he was facing the dementors). Conveniently, we have seen none of this wandless magic in other sticky situations, notable the encounters with LV ( sure could have used it while tied to that gravestone). Maybe wandless magic only works in the Muggle world? Kneazle: I think magic more or less leaks out of him when he is denied the opportunity to use it. It may also speak to a psychological dependence on a wand that, at least in Harry's case, may not be as necessary as a wand would be to some other characters. This is one of those situations like the Parseltongue discovery in CoS. I don't know how significant this is because we are not given a baseline to compare Harry to. There aren't that many discussions of what incidental/wandless magic that other characters create in the books. The only one I recall is a story about Neville getting dropped out of a tower and bouncing. It *is* interesting that none of this occurs at Hogwarts. Maybe there are incidental magic wards around the school From thren at subreality.com Tue Oct 7 13:31:38 2003 From: thren at subreality.com (Thren) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 09:31:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's bag - PROFESSOR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F82C03A.4030607@subreality.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82448 a_reader2003 wrote: >Carolyn: > >Steve, I can help you with two bits of canon on this ! In FB, as a >footnote to the werewolf entry it says: 'For a heartrending account >of one wizard's battle with lycanthropy, see the classic 'Hairy >Snout, Human Heart' by an anonymous author (Whizz Hard Books, 1975)'. > >However, I have to say, the book doesn't sound very academic ! > > > And moi (Thren): I've heard a lot of speculation about Lupin having written that book, but you've got to consider two things: One, it was *published* in 1975, which means that it would have been written a few years before- and no matter which of the plausible Marauder school years theories you follow, Lupin would have been a young teenager at the time of its writing. At that point he had hardly struggled at all in life (compared to how he would later), and he really wasn't that tragic until after James and Lily died. Second, if he *had* written it at that time, it would hardly have been a shining academic work- he was a teenager. :) I think the Academic!Lupin theory is nice, but I always just assumed that he'd had a teaching position(s) in the past. When was the registry put into effect? Maybe it was before that. Or, he might have lied to the school, depending on how badly he needed work. Or even that the school didn't bother checking and he thought they would on their own- then got sacked when they found out. He's very obviously an accomplished teacher- I always thought that maybe between jobs he was a private tutor- perhaps for other werewolves? Children who had been bitten, like him, or perhaps adults whose school years came and went before Dumbledore was headmaster, and wanted to educate themselves. Work like that would be scarce and not too well-paying. Anyway. Thren --- "And then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if like *were* fair, and all the terrible things come because we actually deserve them?" From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 7 14:24:57 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:24:57 -0000 Subject: Hyperbolic Chapter Titles and Snape's worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > Golly wrote: > > > When Rowling says something point blank > > about a character, like hair colour, I believe it. > > Not any more we don't. Unregistered metamorphmagus, anyone? > Golly: No, Tonk's hair really is pink. I assume it isn't her natural hair colour, but it was for a little while her hair colour. That Tonks can change her hair colour at will does not alter the description. All this makes predictablity hard, but it doesn't mean Harry's observation of hair colour is unreliable. Nothing has changed. And Snape's worst memory is not even an observation. It is a chapter title given by our author. We of course do not know why it is his worst- she could throw us a curve ball over that. But given that it is the only one we see, I'm still not convinced it is a lie. DAVID: Surely it's when JKR looks us with her big blue eyes and says "would > I lie to you?" that we should most be on our guard? I've never yet had a problem with a chapter title. I don't have a problem with this one. Omniscient narrators usually don't lie. It is bad for the story's credibility. They misdirect. They lead you down the garden path. They let the reader assume things and fill in the blanks incorrectly. But they don't generally lie. > >DAVID: Personally, I find it suits my interpretation of the Pensieve scene > that it really *is* Snape's worst memory: any misdirection concerns > what *aspect* of that scene makes it the worst. Golly: A very reasonable interpretation of the title. Very logical. Golly From annee19 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 14:25:34 2003 From: annee19 at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:25:34 -0000 Subject: Blood in the bottle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82450 Chrissi was wondering about: > " an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, > full of what Harry was quite sure was blood." OoP page 99, UK edition > I highly doubt it was blood. I suppose it could be have been red wine,red liqueure or something like that. Is it an alcoholic drink instead? Anne replies: I would not be surprised if it were blood, especially considering the opal stopper. Traditionally, opals have a superstitious association with death. See the thread of posts beginning with 72915 that talk about opal legends. Although you do make a good point, which is that anything Harry is "quite sure" of is usually suspect. :) --Anne From cwood at tattersallpub.com Tue Oct 7 15:05:08 2003 From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:05:08 -0000 Subject: Is Dudley adopted? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > Does anyone else suspect that Dudley Dursley might be adopted? I > There is also the issue of Harry's blood protection. If > Dudley really was his blood relative then surely Harry should have > been protected? > > In GoF Voldemort says that the ancient magic that protects Harry > means that not even he can touch him at Privet Drive. So if > Voldemort can't touch Harry how come the Dementor's could? In OoP > Dumbledore says Lily's blood flows on in her sister - her only living > relative. This is telling IMO. > > I don't think Petunia is Dudley's biological mother and that my > friends, opens up a million other possibilities that I will get into > at another time. That's a fascinating theory. It does say that Petunia is Lily's *only* living relative. Dudley would be Lily's nephew, wouldn't he? The only hole I can see is that perhaps (suspected) squib Petunia's union with muggle Vernon has diluted the protective blood by one generation and renders Dudley powerless to protect Harry. I'll be interested to see how the Evans family figures into this, especially if the "Mark Evans" mentioned in OoTP is the son of another of Lily's and Petunia's heretofore unmentioned siblings. Leave it to HP fans to shoot holes in JKR's well-crafted story arc! Ms. Tattersall From jamess at climax.co.uk Tue Oct 7 16:45:01 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:45:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wandless magic in Chapter One Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B53018DE350@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 82452 Kneazle: I think magic more or less leaks out of him when he is denied the opportunity to use it. It may also speak to a psychological dependence on a wand that, at least in Harry's case, may not be as necessary as a wand would be to some other characters. This is one of those situations like the Parseltongue discovery in CoS. I don't know how significant this is because we are not given a baseline to compare Harry to. There aren't that many discussions of what incidental/wandless magic that other characters create in the books. The only one I recall is a story about Neville getting dropped out of a tower and bouncing. It *is* interesting that none of this occurs at Hogwarts. Maybe there are incidental magic wards around the school James Chirps in with his 2c: I think you are all reading too much into the wand less magic thing. The wand seems to act as a focusing device (it is not the source of the magic, the wizard is), with the lumos incident in PoA the wand was close by so I don't think this tells us anything much about 'wand less' magic. My interpretation of the Inflating marge / bouncing Nevil / disappearing glass type wand less magic is that the magical power when unfocused is a bit unpredictable. The magical energy may be slightly akin to static electricity, when unused (During early child development or a summer away from hogwarts) the ambient charge may build up and 'earth' itself. From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 17:14:12 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:14:12 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > My 12-year-old has asked me a question I find difficult to answer. > Perhaps someone could help. The question was: why did Sirius go > through all that trouble, swimming for miles and then journeying > north when he could have simply apparated once he was outside the > prison and re-appeared outside the grounds of Hogwarts.THEN he could > have slipped in disguised as a dog.Would he require the wand he > presumably didn't possess to apparate? It all sounds too simple, so I > suppose there must be some good reason why he didn't use this method. > I'm probably overlooking something obvious, but would be glad if > someone could tell me what that is. Perhaps because he didn't know if it was safe to aparate into Hogsmead. The only place he could apparate there unseen would b the shrieking shack, and having been in Azkaban for so long, he wouldn't know if that was safe. Remember also that he first went to Privet Drive, presumably a place he had never ben before, so he couldn't aparate there. Presumably he could have gone to Grimauld Place as well, but that might not have been safe either - we don't know exactly when his mother died. Melinda From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 7 15:03:26 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:03:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House elves References: Message-ID: <004d01c38ce4$2a38bf20$eeed79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82454 > ~<(Laurasia)>~ > Or, perhaps they allowed their own "enslavement" and wizards just > took credit for it. By that I mean, let's say House-Elves are > innately generous and kind creatures- they offer to do work for > Wizards refuse any money out of the kindness of their hearts. After > many generations of this kind of service Wizards say that they have > enslaved them, when really their 'captives' were hardly putting up > any resistence. > Iggy: Actually, there's elements in almost every form of folklore of the "powerful servant elf/boggin/etc..." These are little critters that live in people's houses or shops and help them out in a form of symbiosis. (The humans get someone who helps clean/protect/repair their home, the elf gets a place to live and food to eat.) In many cases, the creature continues the relationship unless something is done to offend it. This can be by presenting them with new clothes (old ones and tattered ones are ok...), presenting them with ANY gift, taking them for granted, or even (in one form of folklore) putting out a bowl of fresh milk for them. This type of thing exists not only in folklore, but extends into common fairytale-dom... "the Shoemaker and the Elves" is a prime example, and has had many variants of that story... (The most popular alternate being a baker instead of shoe maker.) That's one possible explanation. Now, going in the other direction... Middle Eastern tales abound ("A Thousand and One Arabian Nights - the Tales of Sheherezahd" is one example source...) of powerful Janni (the group name for all races of the more commonly known Genie-kind...) being bound into servitude by powerful wizards. In some cases, it's a band of wizards binding a single Janni into servitude... linking them to an object. In others, it's a large group of wizards (or Magi) joining together and binding a race of Djinn (Dao, Aefreet, Marid... etc...) into service by defeating and binding the ruler of that race into service or imprisonment. There are also tales of the Janni being bound by some agreement of honor between Magi in the past and the rulers of the Janni. This could explain another reason why the House Elves, as powerful as they are, are bound to service. The third possibility I can see is that, much like the first listing, the House Elves originally lived in a symbiotic relationship with the WW. Over time, however (and possibly with the use of subtle spells), the arrangement slowly evolved into a "traditional" enslavement... The racial memory of the House Elves was gradually altered, either naturally or unnaturally, to a point where they became what they are today and are used to it to such a point where they feel it is their duty in life. This has also developed to a point where it's considered the highest disgrace to be ejected from such servitude... which would also explain why they put up with as much abuse as they do when "employed" by a Wizarding family. The illusion, of course, seems to be carefully maintained... such as when Malfoy got angry that Harry had lost him his servant... not slave... Just my two centaurs. (Worth MUCH more than $0.02, of course... *grin*) Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "The buck doesn't even slow down here..." -- ABS FIRECAT From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Oct 7 18:33:29 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 18:33:29 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One/MuggleWorld, Wizard World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > Some rather sleepy musings from me, I'm afraid. > > Now, this got me thinking. For the suggestion "Wandless magic only > works in the Muggle world" to be true, the WW and MW would have to be > composed of seperate spheres. Previously, I had always imagined that > certain areas of the WW - 9 3/4, Diagon Alley - to be like small > pockets - like air pockets under the sea. >snip> > Is it like a series of > small air pockets, or are the gateways - the shop window, the brick > wall, the barrier - actually portals to another dimension? > However, either wizards themselves or a highly > concentrated wizarding presence has the ability to change the > properties of an area, it seems. Together, or in essence divided? > > Kirstini, arch Crypto-bore. It's not boring at all. We all use the phrase 'Wizarding World' freely, but I'm beginning to wonder if we all have the same concept of what it is and what it is composed of. Until I read your post, I'd never thought of it as a physical place at all. Whenever I've thought 'WW', I've thought in terms of a society, not physical islands in a sea of otherness. After all (I reasoned to myself), it is highly unlikely that wizards built a railway station platform or a department store. Did they build Hogwarts? Or does it pre-date them? Can anybody enlighten me? For their physical constructional needs, buildings, etc. I'd classed them as glorified Borrowers - "That looks useful, we'll borrow that." As to what makes a place magical, I reasoned that they do. To be magical a place needs a certain concentration of wizards, spells, magical objects and the like. What critical concentration is needed to achieve 'lift off' is anyone's guess. But after reading Kirstini's post I'm interested in hearing what other posters think the WW is and what it's limits are. Kneasy From tminton at deckerjones.com Tue Oct 7 19:20:05 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:20:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blood in the bottle? Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE248AA4@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82456 *~Aeryn~* said: It seems to me that the discussion on this issue is due largely to a difference in perception. I am assuming that those who don't believe it's blood, but a liquor of some sort, are picturing a larger bottle, while those arguing the blood side are envisioning a much smaller one. I personally imagined a small bottle, like a vial, and did not question the contents at the time. Now Tonya: I would have to agree, I was picturing a smaller sort ornate bottle like a small decorative perfume bottle and didn't question it being blood at all. I went back and reread that portion of the canon to see if I still thought small and blood. I do still perceive it to blood and a small bottle but I also love little tiny pretty things!! Sort like a Niffler I am!! Tonya (walking over the to cabinet not caring what was in the bottle and saying "ohhohh ahhhhh" and pocketing the bottle for safe keeping, "it's so pretty"!!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 7 19:37:09 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:37:09 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82457 I am a fairly new reader here, so forgive me if this question was raised before. In the fight between Harry and Voldemort, Harry manages to get Voldemort's wand to emit prior spells. We know there was a flint wrt the order of appearance of his parents, so I will not mention that. Still, there are two other curiosities there that I have never seen discussed (perhaps they were in the past?): 1. Why is Cedric coming out of the wand when it was Wormtail (on Voldemort's order "Kill the spare") who has actually done the killing? He must have used Voldemort's wand, but why? Does he not have his own? Note we never see him holding a wand after Voldemort is restored, but there is no mention of his stowing the wand inside the robes which Voldemort later wears and from a pocket of which Voldemort removes it. 2. Priori Incantatem is supposed to play back all the spells performed by the wand. We see Wormtail's hand, a number of dead people and we hear the screams (result of the misc. Crucio's I assume). The one spell we don't see, which should have been there - right before the first of Harry's parents appeared - should have been the AK curse that marked Harry's forehead. But there is no mention of it. Has JKR ever explained that, or does someone else cares to try and guess? :-) Salit From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 7 19:57:18 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:57:18 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > The HP Lexicon has OoTP confirming that Lupin and Black were in the > same House as James Potter. Pettigrew's house is still up in the air. > I quote the Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/marauders.html ***** Which?House were they in? Good question. We don't know the answer as yet, although it is fairly certain that James was in Gryffindor. In Order of the Phoenix, Lupin and Sirius recall that Lupin was made a Prefect in the hopes that he could keep James and Sirius in line, which strongly suggests that they were all in the same house. There are other reasons why this seems almost certain. It seems likely that for the four to be as close as they were, they would need to all be in the same House. Also, Lupin clearly favored Gryffindor when it came to Quidditch and Sirius apparently knew the layout of Gryffindor tower pretty well when he snuck in to find Scabbers on two occasions. We still don't know for sure, however. ***** Steve is not as definite here as on some other Lexicon pages. He's also a tad circular (sorry Steve!) He says it's a good bet that Lupin was made a prefect because he was in the same House, but the support he offers is the further assumption that close friends have to be in the same House. If you don't accept that, (what about Percy/Penelope and Cedric/Cho?) then Lupin could still have been made a prefect with the hope that he would feel responsible for his friends' conduct and rein them in even though they were in different Houses. Lupin doesn't say he should have taken House points from James and Sirius. He says he should have told them they were out of line and to lay off Snape. As for Sirius knowing where the entrance to the Gryffindor Common Room is, and about the Fat Lady, Harry knows where all the Common Rooms are from the Marauders Map which Sirius helped make. Of course that doesn't explain how Sirius knew which bed was Ron's, but neither would being a former Gryffindor. Maybe Sirius smelled a rat Pippin From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 7 20:17:52 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:17:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: <013701c38c03$dc204a00$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82459 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elfundeb" wrote: > Hermione, of course, has many ambitions, and she has repeatedly shown herself willing to use whatever means is at her disposal to achieve them. There is nothing wrong with being ambitious. Harry is ambitious too after all - he wants to become an auror - a very prestigious post. Hermione is using tricks and cleverness to achieve her goals, but her goals are pure. I have yet to see one goal of hers that is solely for her own benefit and that hurts others (and no, studying hard to get top grades does not count - it hurts no one; as for Rita Skeeter I'll discuss that one later). > In OOP she effectively takes control of Harry's life. This is power. I have to disagree here. She makes her opinions very clear and does not hesitate to argue and make suggestions and even take the lead. But she always listens to Harry and always lets him make his own decisions - and helps him accomplish them, even when they seem wrong to her (e.g. the trip to the MoM). This shows her to be a true and very valuable friend - more so than Ron who mostly follows Harry's lead without question. > However, the basilisk continued to target muggleborns after Diary! Riddle set his sights on Harry. And at the time of the polyjuice- brewing episode, none of the Trio had any inkling that Harry was or would become the basilisk's prime target. In fact, Hermione hatches the polyjuice scheme just after Binns' lecture revealing Slytherin's unwillingness to teach muggleborns and the legend that the basilisk was there to rid the school of all those Slytherin thought unworthy to be taught magic. And why is it wrong for her to try to save her own life when she thinks she is the primary target, but not wrong if she thinks Harry is the primary target? I miss the point. > It's possible that Marietta would have plowed ahead even if she had been warned that there was a jinx on the parchment they signed. But it would have made her think very hard about it first had she known there were consequences. I don't see how Hermione could have warned the students. Do you think they'd have signed on if they knew it was jinxed? And if she told them right afterwards, there would be an uproar. Not to mention the risk that the sneak would have figured out a way to get around the jinx - either find a counter charm or disclosed the secret in such a way that the jinx would be activated. No, the best way was how she did it. And frankly, my sympathy is very limited. The jinx was not life threatening or painfull or anything. It was a very appropriate punishment for one who put an entire group of students (moreover the students Hermione cared most about) at a very real risk for expulsion. > As I see it, this is a good trait carried to excess. She sees a problem and a solution, but the people who can help her carry out her solution are, as you say, *tools* and not people. Where is the evidence for that? > She is blind to everything else. Like the centaurs, other people become instruments of her will. She is using Luna every bit as much as she uses Skeeter. And, as David pointed out originally, even Harry, the person she's trying to help, is only a pawn in this business, since Hermione presumes to decide for Harry what he should do and when he should do it, without telling him in advance. At no point does she force Harry to do anything. He has the right to say "I don't want to talk about it" and leave the room. She is not using him, she gives him a chance to tell his side of the story if he wants to - and we know he does. As for Luna - how is she using her? The Quibbler gets a sensational scoop which double or triples their usual readership plus a handsom payoff at the end when they sell it to the Daily Prophet. WRT Rita, ditto here. She is a nasty lying reporter who through GoF was on a mission to hurt as many people as possible through the spreading of rumors and half-truths - moreover she was hurting precisely the people Hermione cares about (Harry, Hagrid, the Weasleys, not to mention herself). When Hermione captures her, rather than revealing the secret and having Skeeter shipped to Azkaban, she gives her the choice (at the end of GoF) to keep quiet for a year and in return she'd say nothing about her being an illegal animagus. I think that was very generous on Hermione's part. Then she gives her the option to actually publish a piece before the year ended. A piece moreover that is absolutely guaranteed to be the most important article Rita has ever written, and that can be used as a basis to restart her career and reform herself (not to mention the important lesson that people will read an article without all the spoofs she always adds). Of course Hermione has her own motives here (to get Harry's name cleared and his story out to the public), but she is not hurting anyone doing that - except for the bad guys of course. Salit From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Oct 7 20:39:52 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:39:52 -0000 Subject: Death v the Kiss was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One/MuggleWorld, Wizard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82460 Kneasy wrote:--- >>Did they build Hogwarts? Or does it pre-date them? Can anybody enlighten me? For their physical constructional needs, buildings, etc. I'd classed them as glorified Borrowers - "That looks useful, we'll borrow that." As to what makes a place magical, I reasoned that they do. To be magical a place needs a certain concentration of wizards, spells, magical objects and the like. What critical concentration is needed to achieve 'lift off' is anyone's guess. But after reading Kirstini's post I'm interested in hearing what other posters think the WW is and what it's limits are<<< I've never really thought about the WW as a physical space before, although I agree that some physical parts are purely wizarding. But, following OoP, I have really felt that the MoM was constructed around the Chamber of Death. IMO, the arch and the veil predate the MoM. I think that they are a link between our world and the next, perhaps a place where it is easier to pass on quickly, I don't know. But, that has led me to think that once, the WW used the Veil to "execute" people, hence the space around the platform, allowing spectators. I think that they built the whole of the MoM, but particularly the chamber where the Wizengamot sits, and of course the Department of Mysteries, to be close to the Veil. I also think that the WW don't have the death penalty anymore. Whilst this mirrors our own Muggle culture, I note that they do have something which is arguably worse than death - as Lupin says "Much worse than that" p. 183 PoA UK edition. I also believe that the difference between death and the KISS (ie removal of ones' soul) will be absolutely key to the resolution of Book 7. Ali From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 20:56:12 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:56:12 -0000 Subject: Wormtail - parallels with Wormtongue? In-Reply-To: <3F817A0C.2415.1E6E9C@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" wrote: > Don't forget, though, in LOTR, worms weren't only the soft, squishy, wriggly, slimy things so > reminicsent of a rat's tail. Worm was also another term for dragon, and dragons had a well- > deserved reputation for sweet-talking the unwary (and indeed, even the MOST wary) out of > hiding and into roasting range. Actually, Dragons are WYRMs not worm: Wyrm /w3:m/ [also wurm] noun. a type of dragon with a long slender body, often able to breathe fire, with either none or four limbs but usually without wings. Derives from the Old Germanic Gewurm. Melinda From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Oct 7 21:17:47 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:17:47 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One/MuggleWorld, Wizard World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82462 > After all (I reasoned to myself), it is highly unlikely that wizards > built a railway station platform or a department store. Did they build > Hogwarts? Or does it pre-date them? Can anybody enlighten me? > For their physical constructional needs, buildings, etc. I'd classed > them as glorified Borrowers - "That looks useful, we'll borrow that." > > As to what makes a place magical, I reasoned that they do. To be > magical a place needs a certain concentration of wizards, spells, > magical objects and the like. What critical concentration is needed > to achieve 'lift off' is anyone's guess. > > But after reading Kirstini's post I'm interested in hearing what other > posters think the WW is and what it's limits are. Jen: It's hard to put imagination into words. I've always pictured the WW as part of the Muggle world, but....with different limits. Well, it's similar to us only using a small percentage of our brains-- I think Muggles only have awareness of a certain percentage of the physical and energetic environment. That's why magical cars/tents can be extended inside, and cars can leap ahead in traffic--they take advantage of the other percentage of the world that Muggles aren't aware of and don't have a sense for. And magical abilities are an extension of this, accessing energy from a plane that isn't available to everyone. So, like a sixth sense, a magical person draws from a different energy level. Enough magical people in one place heightens the awareness--thus children go to Hogwarts for training. There they can access a higher level of magical ability than if they are spread out. And since energy is a neutral force, magic can be used for 'good' or 'evil' purposes. Of course, all this is just my own perception that has grown over the course of the series. I'm curious to hear other people's ideas-- Interesting thought, Kneasy! From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 21:26:19 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (xmezumiiru) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:26:19 -0000 Subject: Invisibility Cloak Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82463 I was watching the History channel and was interested when the show began detailing the origins of the Jack and the Beanstalk story. It had always been a favorite of mine as a child, so here it was a surprise that the story did not end with the killing of the first Giant. No, Jack went on and became 'Jack, the Giant Slayer'. What's that got to do with anything? Nothing, until we find out Jack killed most of his Giants under an article stolen from one of his first few conquests, an invisibility cloak. The expert who was relating this stated that it was the first time an invisibility cloak was used in literature. Invisibility was common enough, but never an article of clothing to make one invisible. Before HP used one, I had never heard of such a thing, so I was surprised there was another instance. Given JKR's apparent use of historically accurate tid-bits, I would wager a guess to say the invisiblilty cloak used by Harry was based (all or in part) on the cloak Jack wears. I would love to see what others have to say. Chris From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 21:35:44 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:35:44 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82464 sylviablundell at a... wrote: My 12-year-old has asked me a question I find difficult to answer. Perhaps someone could help. The question was: why did Sirius go through all that trouble, swimming for miles and then journeying north when he could have simply apparated once he was outside the prison and re-appeared outside the grounds of Hogwarts.THEN he could have slipped in disguised as a dog.Would he require the wand he presumably didn't possess to apparate? It all sounds too simple, so I suppose there must be some good reason why he didn't use this method. I'm probably overlooking something obvious, but would be glad if someone could tell me what that is. Melinda replied: Perhaps because he didn't know if it was safe to aparate into Hogsmead. The only place he could apparate there unseen would b the shrieking shack, and having been in Azkaban for so long, he wouldn't know if that was safe. Remember also that he first went to Privet Drive, presumably a place he had never ben before, so he couldn't aparate there. Tom adds: Hmph. I love the questions that kids ask! My guess (if I had to have one, since I never thought to question this particular plot point) is twofold: one, I think that a wand is *probably* needed for Apparation, although we don't know this to be a canon-based fact; in that sense, what with his wand removed and all, Sirius would be severely handicapped. Secondly, we know that Apparation is extremely difficult, and that it can go awry if performed improperly; a witch or wizard can accidentally `splinch' themselves by leaving part of the body behind. Since Azkaban (and the dementors who ran it) severely weakened most of the occupants within, perhaps he just wasn't strong enough to perform the spell, despite the fact that he was able to stave off some of the negative effects of the dementors by turning into a dog. Oh, and (last minute thinking here) I'm guessing that in order to Apparate, he would have had to become a man again... perhaps that would have revealed him to the dementors before he could escape? -Tom From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 20:48:43 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:48:43 -0000 Subject: Wandless magic in Chapter One In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B53018DE350@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82465 James Chirps in with his 2c: I think you are all reading too much into the wand less magic thing. The wand seems to act as a focusing device (it is not the source of the magic, the wizard is), with the lumos incident in PoA the wand was close by so I don't think this tells us anything much about 'wand less' magic. Kneazle responds: Wands are a big deal in the WW. A lot of races (eg house elves) are banned from using them. Wizards rely on them heavily. There are types of magic that don't require wands, but the all are 'inwardly' focused and highly specialized like metamorphmagus and animagus abiliites. Some talents (parseltongue) don't require wands. But it seems that all wizards require wands to harness magic and affect anything deliberately. By my count, thru five books, we've seen one instance of outwardly focused, deliberate magic, and that's Harry's little lumos spell. Plus, Voldemort and Harry's wands cancel each other out. If Harry can control and focus magic without a wand, he can lock wands with Voldemort, then attack him while V is essentially defenceless. James says: My interpretation of the Inflating marge / bouncing Nevil / disappearing glass type wand less magic is that the magical power when unfocused is a bit unpredictable. The magical energy may be slightly akin to static electricity, when unused (During early child development or a summer away from hogwarts) the ambient charge may build up and 'earth' itself. Kneazle: I agree with this. From eclipse021342 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 20:38:55 2003 From: eclipse021342 at yahoo.com (Eclipse) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031007203855.88139.qmail@web80706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82466 Someone mentioned that Hermione should have used a stunning spell rather than a silencing spell at the battle at the Ministry at the of OOP. I was just wondering if she knew that he would still be able to complete the spell? I can't remember a spell that used a wand that didn't need words. There is Anagmi transfermations and apparation that don't need words, if I remember correctly. (Don't have my books with me.) So I was wondering if this is something new or if a wizard or a witch gets better with magic, they don't need the words, just the thoughts? Thanks. Eclipse --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 7 20:20:36 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:20:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Dudley adopted? References: Message-ID: <002801c38d10$792273c0$32e579a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82467 > Ms. Tattersall: > That's a fascinating theory. It does say that Petunia is Lily's > *only* living relative. Dudley would be Lily's nephew, wouldn't he? > The only hole I can see is that perhaps (suspected) squib Petunia's > union with muggle Vernon has diluted the protective blood by one > generation and renders Dudley powerless to protect Harry. It could also, just as easily, be that Vernon is a widower, with Dudley from a prior marriage... and he married Petunia when Dudley was only a baby as well. Since Vernon and Petunia have the same view of the magical world, she would be a lot more likely to accept Dudley as her own son (even going so far as to possibly adopt him legally...) and treat him as she does. This could explain why Dudley is Petunia's son, but not a blood relative of Harry's. > > I'll be interested to see how the Evans family figures into this, > especially if the "Mark Evans" mentioned in OoTP is the son of > another of Lily's and Petunia's heretofore unmentioned siblings. > Leave it to HP fans to shoot holes in JKR's well-crafted story arc! I think we'll find out exactly how Mark Evans figures into things as well. One thing I was thinking is that she doesn't mention Mark or his family, if they are related to her, because they may be cousins that have some magic in their line, or possibly that part of Petunia's resentment may be that she ended up being disowned by her family. Alternately, she may have voluntarily separated and broke all ties to her family when she married Vernon. When one does this, they're not likely to mention a family member even if they live across the street. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Where are we going? (And why am I in this handbasket?)" -- ABS FIRECAT From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 7 22:04:35 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:04:35 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > A point about the Evans that I have not seen discussed before. > Dumbledore said, "They're the only family he has left now." (SS/PS, > p 13 US) What if he meant "...the only *immediate* family..."? Assuming that Mark Evans' name is significant, that would be my interpretation too. > Adding in the consideration of the blood protection, Petunia is the > closest blood relation to Lily, so is the logical choice for > Dumbledore to consider as Harry's guardian. Yup. If the protection is based on shared blood (genes), then the nearest relative is the best choice. Petunia is the one - she shares 1/4 of her genes with Harry (if my memory of genetics is correct) followed by Dudley (1/8 of his genes). A distant relative would share very little - clearly not a good candidate. > Lily's parents were proud to have a witch in the family, which > indicates to me that they were either squibs, or the children of > squibs ? close enough to know about the WW. No. It is said in many places that Lily was muggle-born. Squibs are not muggles - they are descendents of wizards with magical ability that is too limited to perform spells (but note they sre not muggles, as they do have some magical characteristics, e.g. see dementors or communicate with magical cats). > Lily's ability was evidence that the magic gene was still > there in the family. There obviously is a genetic component to magic - children of magical parents are almost always magical themselves (it is mentioned in CoS that a squib is very rare). It seems to be a dominant gene - children of mixed pairs are wizards too (Voldemort, Seamus, Tonks). And having one magical child increases the chance that other children in the are also magical (the Creevy's). But this is no proof that for the Evanses to have a witch in the family they themselves had to have magical anscestors. > So it is possible for Mark Evans to be Harry's cousin without > contradicting Dumbledore's statement. I too think that Mark Evans is a distant relative of Harry's and will show up in Hogwarts for book 6. In fact, I think that his significance in the story will be exposing the Dursleys lies about Harry to the neighborhood, thus leading to Harry's expulsion from the Dursleys' home (or them disappearing from the neighborhood without leaving a return address - both for fear of Voldemort and of their damaged reputation). This will end his protection there, of course. Salit (who wonders if the Dursleys will show up to pick Harry at the end of book 6). From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 7 22:16:24 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:16:24 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle World, Wizard World References: <1065559199.4454.87622.m16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005f01c38d20$a53cc900$b14e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 82469 Kneasy wrote: >We all use the phrase 'Wizarding World' freely, but I'm beginning to >wonder if we all have the same concept of what it is and what it >is composed of. >But after reading Kirstini's post I'm interested in hearing what other >posters think the WW is and what it's limits are. I think the answer to this lies way back in the mists of time... Here are some thoughts that have been rattling around in my head for a little while, looking for an excuse to pour forth onto the list. I sent a first draft to the late Professor Ignotus Binns of Hogwarts Academy for comments, but haven't had any back :-) 1. When human beings evolved in the Potterverse, there was no conception of "wizard", "squib", or "muggle". Everyone lived side by side in small communities and the various subspecies of human occurred entirely randomly as a result. From time to time, therefore, a child would be born in a clan or village who had a "talent" for magic, and in a society in which everyone knew everyone else's business, there could be no secrecy about that. Those children would be considered to have a "gift from the gods" and would take on the role of the tribe's shaman/ka or priest/ess, responsible for the various magics and rites for the tribe's needs, fertility, healing, weather, hunting, and the like. 2. In such a world, there would be no guarantee that there would be more than one person in the clan with the "talent", and thus no likelihood that the shaman would have either a mentor in youth to pass on knowledge or a successor in old age to teach. The numbers in the tribe would just be too small. They would be on their own, jealously guarded by the tribe, and having to "invent the magical wheel" every time. Appurtenances like wands would only be discovered by chance and the technique would not be passed on. So wandless magic would be the norm. Indeed, the type of magic that was the norm was most certainly the "ancient magic". 3. This remained the pattern for millenia. Normally, a wizard would have two muggle parents and a muggle spouse (unless the particular clan required ritual celibacy, promiscuity, or homosexuality for its priest!) which would mean that their offspring would also be muggles. 4. However, the development of settled agriculture meant that humans began to live together in larger settlements. For the first time, settlements came into existence in which there was more than one wizard. Indeed, there were a lot more than one in the first cities! Because the wizards continued to carry out their religious role, it meant that the wizards in those towns and cities came into contact with each other as a matter of course - settled religion came into existence at the same time. Cities had their temple precinct in which the wizards lived, to which new acolytes and novices with the "talent" were taken for training, even from the villages in the cultural orbit of the new cities. 5. Because there were many wizards living together, there would never again be any difficulties about passing on knowledge between generations. Firstly orally, and later with the development of writing, wizardry began to develop exponentially, and spells, charms, potions, and cantrips, not to mention hexes, jinxes, and curses were written down and built upon for the future. Communication became possible over long distances, and magical appurtenances such as wands and flying devices were invented. 6. But the new wizardly community also discovered something so spectacular that it was to change the world forever. That discovery was that if two wizards had children, there was an extremely high probability that that child would also have the "talent", and the probability rose dramatically the more wizards there were in the bloodline. 7. This discovery, which was made simultaneously in temple communities all over the world, shook religion to its roots. It could not be denied that the "talent" was not so much a gift from the gods as a matter of birth and blood. When the temples began to communicate with their rivals in other cities, they discovered that the same was true for them: what they had in common far outweighed any religious doctrine that divided them. 8. As wizard blood became more concentrated, another discovery was made. Occasionally a child would be born who had no innate magical ability, but was not a muggle either. These children could use certain magical appurtenances though they could not do magic themselves. They had a far greater psychic ability than muggles did, including an ability to communicate with animals, particularly cats. They also had a far greater perception, and were able to see the world as it really is, undeterred by spells and other glamours. 9. Specialists in Muggle Studies have speculated that these people have always been born, but in very small numbers, even outside wizarding communities, and some theorists have wondered at a connection between those individuals who have been great spiritual leaders in the muggle world and the presence of the squib gene. 10. Having discovered their special nature, the wizards' position as temple priests became untenable, and it was universally agreed to withdraw from that role. Magic became divorced from ritual, with a new cadre of priests being trained up from the muggle population to act as spiritual leaders and guides to the population. Wizards removed themselves into a more secluded position in the cities. Children born outside the wizard families with the "talent" were taken in as apprentices to ensure that they had a grasp of what was becoming an increasingly complex and separate world. 11. The increased complexity of magic and the size of the corpus of knowledge made it less and less easy for wizards to participate in the muggle world, and more and more likely that they would associate only with their fellows. This was true, of course, only for the small numbers who lived in the cities and the cultural shadows of those cities: for the vast majority of humans who continued to live in a state of nature, wizard and muggle continued to live cheek by jowl with the muggles using the services of the village wizard as they always had. 12. Although wizards agreed that they should divorce themselves from the important role in the muggle world that they had originally played, they did not all agree about how they should act towards muggles. A minority considered that the muggle world was there to be manipulated and used for their convenience. They developed dark magics to control the minds of others, on occasion provoking violent reaction against wizards from their muggle neighbours. 13. Eventually a climate of more general persecution developed. It is tempting to identify this with the development of the "world religions" of Christianity and Islam, with their ambivalent shading to hostile attitudes to wizardry and witchcraft, but it would be equally tenable to see it as bound up with the development of feudalism and the refusal of monarchs to contemplate a group within their country who did not owe them allegiance and obedience. The result of these long years of persecutions was that not merely the urban families (who for the most part already lived entirely separate lives) but also the village wizards were compelled to conceal themselves from their muggle neighbours. By the late 17th century and the passing of the Statute of Secrecy, there were in fact very few wizards living openly in the more developed parts of the world. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 7 22:32:56 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:32:56 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: <00d901c38c3f$bb620f60$84560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > That's right---I think I'm the first to suggest that possibility. As of the > end of Book 5, it hasn't---but I doubt we've heard the last of our > least-favorite Wizard World journalist. I agree. But I hope that Rita may have learned an important lesson from her interview with Harry, and may even reform somewhat. > This may come to pass in Book Six, since Hermione's now got another enemy, > in the form of Dolores Umbridge. Even though she covered herself in > ignominy during her time at Hogwarts, Umbridge probably still has power and > influence behind-the-scenes at the Ministry, and she's got a _real, real_ > good reason (from her POV, of course) to hate Hermione's guts. Umbridge is Passe for several reasons: 1. She admitted in front of at least 10 witnesses that she set the dementors on Harry. She also admitted to attempting to make him drink veritaserum - a substance which use is strictly regulated. And she tried to use an unforgivable curse on him. Each of the above (and especially the first) can easily land her in Azkaban. 2. Her power comes from Fudge and Malfoy. Both are in disgrace. 3. She is a broken woman. Witness how she acted at the end of OoP. So no, Hermione has nothing to fear from Umbridge, though Rita may still prove to be an annoyance. > I would say that Hermione's weakness is almost certainly her insecurity. That is true, but her main weakness is the lack of intuition and refusal to accept that other people/species have a different set of values than her own. Both Hermione and Harry grew up in muggle homes. But see the contrast between their behaviour towards house elves. Whereas Harry treats them with real respect and compassion, Hermione tries to impose her world view on them, whether they want it or not (the other wizard children are too tainted by their upbringing to treat house elves in objective manner). It is no wonder that Dobby adores Harry so much whereas the house elves can't stand Hermione. I am not worried though - at her core she is a good person. She'll learn as she grows up. Salit (whose favorite character is Hermione, despite - or because of - her faults). From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 22:56:22 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:56:22 -0000 Subject: Invisibility Cloak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "xmezumiiru" wrote: > The expert who was relating this stated that it was the first time an > invisibility cloak was used in literature. Invisibility was common > enough, but never an article of clothing to make one invisible. > > Before HP used one, I had never heard of such a thing, so I was > surprised there was another instance. Given JKR's apparent use of > historically accurate tid-bits, I would wager a guess to say the > invisiblilty cloak used by Harry was based (all or in part) on the > cloak Jack wears. > Chris Now me: I don't know about any other cloaks, but I do recall that in Greek mythology, Hades had a cap that made him invisible when he wore it. Perseus borrowed it along with Hermes' winged sandals and Athena's shield, I believe.... PK From Cfitz812 at aol.com Tue Oct 7 23:23:42 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:23:42 -0000 Subject: Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen: > > I've read on here before that Hermione represents the Mind, Ron the > Heart, and Harry the Soul. To be successful in their quest, they need > to now include Luna, the Intuition. She is the missing piece from > Harry's equation, the power he denies himself every time he runs into > an adventure without consulting his internal compass. > > He turns to Hermione for knowledge, Ron to love him like a brother, > and now he needs Luna to remind him to calm down and trust his > instincts. Only then will Harry finally be the "One with the Power to > Vanquish the Dark Lord." > > Claire: I think that Neville needs to be included as well as the Conscience (standing up to his friends). He's of the "do the right thing" mentality, which could tone down Harry's rashness. All of them have pieces of the puzzle--put them together and they're formidable. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 7 23:48:08 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:48:08 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > > Lily's parents were proud to have a witch in the family, which > > indicates to me that they were either squibs, or the children of > > squibs ? close enough to know about the WW. > > Salit wrote: > No. It is said in many places that Lily was muggle-born. Squibs are not muggles - they are descendents of wizards with magical ability that is too limited to perform spells (but note they sre not muggles, as they do have some magical characteristics, e.g. see dementors or communicate with magical cats). At what point are the non-magical children of squibs considered muggles? There was discussion a while back about this. I lean toward the idea that the second or third generation of non-magical off-spring are muggles. If this is true, then Lily's grandparents or great grandparents might have been magical - hence her parents' pride over her talents. They could have been known about the WW even if they weren't part of it. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 00:03:46 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:03:46 -0000 Subject: Longbottom/Potter Friendship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > > The first thing that would eliminate this as a possibility is that > there was a secret keeper, keeping the location of the Potters > unknowable to anyone. What Professor Flitwick told Madam Rosmerta (PoA, p205 US): "The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret- Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret- Keeper refused to speak...." So the information isn't "unknowable to anyone." Secret-Keeper (Wormtail) could have told the Longbottoms, or written it out for them the way Dumbledore did for Harry. The big question is who did Wormtail tell, and how did he hide the fact he was the Secret- Keeper? I'm working on collecting fact, clues, and theories on this puzzle. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 00:14:55 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:14:55 -0000 Subject: Ummm, Let's Not Use Dumbledore (was: Why is everyone ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth" wrote: Batchevra at a... wrote: What Sirius didn't realize was that Lupin is a good, loyal > person, he would never betray any secret that he knew or person, take the fact in POA it is Sirius who finally tells Dumbledore that Pettigrew, Potter and himself turned into Animagi. > Alshain wrote: > I think both Sirius and Remus suspected each other by default, > thinking roughly like this: > Someone close to Lily and James is betraying their movements to > Voldemort. I know it isn't me, and Peter is too weak and incompetent to dare to be a spy. So it has to be Remus / Sirius. > > Both of them grew more distant to the other, interpreting this mutual coldness as justification of their suspicions (though I wonder if Peter couldn't have helped a little). Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great after all. Mutual suspician prompted by Wormtail makes more sense to me than the idea that Sirius didn't know what Remus is like. Afterall, they had know each other for over seven years. Did anyone else suspect Remus? I guess in my originaly question I was thinking that others suspected him too. Ravenclaw Bookworm From wildfire_517 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 18:43:59 2003 From: wildfire_517 at yahoo.com (wildfire_517) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 18:43:59 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82476 Melinda: [snipped] > Presumably he could have gone to Grimauld Place as well, but that > might not have been safe either - we don't know exactly when his > mother died. Actually, in Book 5, Sirius says that the house at Grimmauld Place had been empty for ten years after his mother died until he volunteered it as HQ for the Order. p. 83, American edition: "No one's lived here for ten years, not since my mother died, unless you count her old house-elf..." - Sirius -WF From screaming_veela at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 19:14:00 2003 From: screaming_veela at yahoo.com (lauralexis) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lavender and Parvati Message-ID: <20031007191400.94956.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82477 Hello, all. I am new to the list, and this is my first post.* I searched the archives, but didn't much of anything that would help me answer this: why are Lavender and Parvati in Gryffindor?? I've been wondering this a lot lately, actually, and haven't really come up with anything. I believe that they're there for a reason, and that their personalities ("like, omigod!") may just be a smokescreen on JKR's part. Is there anything in canon that would confirm that they are actually in the right house? I haven't see any myself. So, I am very much anticipating a Lavender/Parvati (and possibly Padma, if she anything like her sister) transformation, though it would have to happen *soon* for it to be plausible. Any thoughts? Any theories? Any posts in the archives that I might have missed that answer these questions? the screaming veela, aka lauralexis *For the record, I am 18, I live in Ontario, Canada and I admit to having seen the first movie before picking up a book. My bad. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 7 19:26:54 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 19:26:54 -0000 Subject: Question about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82478 Sylvia: > This may be a stupid question, but did Harry know what his mother's > maiden name was before the Pensieve scene? He knows Mark Evans' > name, but doesn't seem to attach any importance to it. It's unlikely > that the Dursleys would have discussed Lily with him, so the name may > never have come up and Harry is not a great one for asking questions. Geoff: There is also the point that Evans is a very common name in the UK. Harry could quite easily see the boy and know his name and the thought that he is related not cross his mind because he would consider it unlikely. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 7 20:22:07 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:22:07 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: Salit: > I am a fairly new reader here, so forgive me if this question was > raised before. > > In the fight between Harry and Voldemort, Harry manages to get > Voldemort's wand to emit prior spells. We know there was a flint wrt > the order of appearance of his parents, so I will not mention that. > Still, there are two other curiosities there that I have never seen > discussed (perhaps they were in the past?): > > 1. Why is Cedric coming out of the wand when it was Wormtail (on > Voldemort's order "Kill the spare") who has actually done the > killing? He must have used Voldemort's wand, but why? Does he not > have his own? Note we never see him holding a wand after Voldemort is > restored, but there is no mention of his stowing the wand inside the > robes which Voldemort later wears and from a pocket of which > Voldemort removes it. > Geoff: No, but bear in mind that the Avadra Kedavra which killed Cedric was /before/ Voldemort was restored to a body and he was still a rather nastier and slimier being than usual... "..he saw that the thing in the person's arms looked like a baby... or was it merely a bundle of robes?" "Wormtail pulled open the robes on the ground.... and Harry let out a yell... It was as though Wormtail had flipped over a stone and revealed something ugly, slimy and blind..." "'Robe me', said the high cold voice from behind the steam and Wormtail, sobbing and moaning.....scrambled to pick up the black robes form the ground..." "Voldemort slipped one of thos unnaturally long-fingered hands into a deep pocket and drew out a wand." My reading is that WT used the wand to kill Cedric and then placed it in the pocket for LV to have when he received his new body. Salit: > 2. Priori Incantatem is supposed to play back all the spells > performed by the wand. We see Wormtail's hand, a number of dead > people and we hear the screams (result of the misc. Crucio's I > assume). The one spell we don't see, which should have been there - > right before the first of Harry's parents appeared - should have been > the AK curse that marked Harry's forehead. But there is no mention of > it. Geoff: Silly question, what form would the spell take? There wasn't a dead body as in the case of Cedric, James et al. From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 7 20:22:37 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:22:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Dudley adopted? References: Message-ID: <004301c38d10$c139f520$32e579a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82480 From: Vinnia > 2. I wonder if the PrivetDrive charm only works > against Voldemort. He was the one who shed her blood, > therefore, Lily's blood is Harry's refuge from > Voldemort only. This means that the DE can hurt Harry > in PD, but Dumbledore must have known that Voldemort > would want to kill Harry himself. Iggy: Well, it could also be that protection from Voldemort also prevents him from ordering his minions to go and kill Harry. (He doesn't register the address important, he gets distracted, or just can't do it...) As to whether or not someone like Malfoy has ever considered taking the initiative to go off and find Harry to kill him on his own is something else. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "INVEST IN AMERICA! (Buy a Congressman)" -- ABS FIRECAT From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Tue Oct 7 21:28:02 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:28:02 -0400 Subject: Snape and his teen years Message-ID: <000a01c38d19$e3cbf800$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82481 There was a very sad story in the newspaper this morning about a twelve year old boy in Connecticut who hanged himself in his closet with a necktie after being picked on for months at school over his bad breath and body odor. This is a terrible tragedy. But I did think of Snape, who was teased for his hygiene and appearance by the coolest kids in the school. It helps me to understand his hatred for Sirius and James. I hope we see some healing in his personality in books 6 & 7. Mary Jo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 00:34:06 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:34:06 -0000 Subject: Is Dudley adopted? In-Reply-To: <002801c38d10$792273c0$32e579a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82482 LPD wrote: > > That's a fascinating theory. It does say that Petunia is Lily's > > *only* living relative. Dudley would be Lily's nephew, wouldn't he? > > The only hole I can see is that perhaps (suspected) squib Petunia's > > union with muggle Vernon has diluted the protective blood by one > > generation and renders Dudley powerless to protect Harry. > > Iggy McSnurd wrote: > It could also, just as easily, be that Vernon is a widower, with Dudley from > a prior marriage... and he married Petunia when Dudley was only a baby as > well. Since Vernon and Petunia have the same view of the magical world, she > would be a lot more likely to accept Dudley as her own son (even going so > far > as to possibly adopt him legally...) and treat him as she does. > > This could explain why Dudley is Petunia's son, but not a blood relative of > Harry's. On page 1 (book 1, chapter 1...) it says "The Dursleys had a small son named Dudley..." On page 7, Vernon verifies with Petunia that the Potter's son was about the same age as Dudley. By my calculations, Dudley is about three months older than Harry, so was only 18 months old when Harry came to live with them. For purposes of guardianship, an infant nephew wouldn't count when looking for somone in Lily's family. They way the introduction to the Dursleys is written, I think that it would have been mentioned of Petunia were Dudley's step-mother instead of his biological mother. It's always possible JKR had been hiding something (else ) from us, but I don't think so in this case. Ravenclaw Bookworm From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 00:34:33 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:34:33 -0000 Subject: So Close To Being Reborn (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82483 The fifth in the "Azkaboon" musical, via Lerner & Loewe So Close To Being Reborn (PoA, Chap. 16) To the tune of Almost Like Being In Love, from Brigadoon Dedicated to Tracy Hunt Hear a MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat228.html THE SCENE: Professor TRELAWNEY'S classroom. Harry, preparing to take his leave after taking his Divination exam, overhears his professor deliver a startling message in a voice quite unlike her own. TRELAWNEY: Taking my test up in my tow'r, You know not of Cassandra, do I share some of her power? Truly I am now in my prime: As I foresee a second time! Once bereft and alone, he will seize back his throne Why, he's so close to being reborn A Napoleon thing, an ex-exiled king Who is so close to being reborn Oh, how his faithful servant will strive to upgrade to Voldy '95! And when the Master breaks loose, he will really produce. Things will get right chaotic, then they'll turn quite despotic, He is so close to being reborn. He intends to debase all of the human race He is .so full of hatred and scorn He will play the dark god when he wins back his bod He will make many good wizards mourn. If you don't know what is to be done Then please reference Prophecy #1 And so the die has been cast, kid, you'd better act fast Midst the howls and the squeals, the wheels within wheels He is so close to........... (Trelawney comes out of her trance, and addresses Harry) (spoken) I'm so sorry, dear boy - the heat of the day, you know... I drifted off for a.... (Trelawney go back into her trance in order to conclude a suitably majestic flourish) (music) ....He is so close to being reborn! (Trelawney slumps over) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 00:42:55 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:42:55 -0000 Subject: Spells In-Reply-To: <20031007203855.88139.qmail@web80706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eclipse wrote: > Someone mentioned that Hermione should have used a stunning spell rather than a silencing spell at the battle at the Ministry at the of OOP. I was just wondering if she knew that he would still be able to complete the spell? I can't remember a spell that used a wand that didn't need words. There is Anagmi transfermations and apparation that don't need words, if I remember correctly. (Don't have my books with me.) So I was wondering if this is something new or if a wizard or a witch gets better with magic, they don't need the words, just the thoughts? Thanks. > > Eclipse Annemehr: I am studying the DoM battle intensely just now, and one thing I discovered is that the spell Dolohov hit Hermione with, the slashing one with a streak of purple flame, is actually silent. He used it again in the Death Chamber battle, after his power of speech had been restored, and still he used no words. Also, there aren't any words uttered by Dumbledore (at least, none are mentioned) as he battles Voldemort in the Atrium. I'm sure someone theorised before that once a spell is truly mastered, actually saying the words is no longer necessary. Dumbledore rarely speaks when he's using his wand, though he did say "Portus" whenever he made a portkey. Annemehr From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 8 00:48:57 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:48:57 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > > 1. Why is Cedric coming out of the wand when it was Wormtail (on > > Voldemort's order "Kill the spare") who has actually done the > > killing? > My reading is that WT used the wand to kill Cedric and then placed it > in the pocket for LV to have when he received his new body. Wormtail used a wand afterwards to conjure ropes to tie Harry and to make the potion. A wand is used to light the fire under the caulderon. And I am fairly certain that he had to have a wand when he chanted the incantation needed for the potion to work ("Bone of the father...", "Flesh of the servant...", "Blood of the enemy"...). Interestingly none of the above shows in the Priori Incantatem sequence (we'd expect to see flames, ropes conjured, no?). Perhaps he did have his own wand to perform the later spells, but then why didn't he use it to kill Cedric? [ why Priori Incantatem did not show the scar-causing AK? ] > Silly question, what form would the spell take? There wasn't a dead > body as in the case of Cedric, James et al. Well, a spell that produces a silver hand shows in the PI sequence as a hand. A Cruciatus curse is expressed as screams. Presumably we should see either a scar - or a dead Voldemort from that AK backfiring? Salit From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Oct 8 00:51:37 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:51:37 -0000 Subject: Lavender and Parvati In-Reply-To: <20031007191400.94956.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lauralexis wrote: > Hello, all. I am new to the list, and this is my first post.* I searched the archives, but didn't much of anything that would help me answer this: why are Lavender and Parvati in Gryffindor?? > > I've been wondering this a lot lately, actually, and haven't really come up with anything. I believe that they're there for a reason, and that their personalities ("like, omigod!") may just be a smokescreen on JKR's part. > > Is there anything in canon that would confirm that they are actually in the right house? I haven't see any myself. > Right now, I can think only of one scene that indicates, why Lavender is in Gryffindor. It's when Hagrid taught his class Blast Ended Skrewts and they escaped. Most of the class ran away to hide from the beasts, but Lavender helped trying to catch them. There is also that scene, when Parvati defends Neville after the flying lesson. But I don't think, that's really brave. It was nice, but not especially brave. Generally, it is IMO very hard to say, why is this and this character in Gryffindor. We haven't see much that indicates why Parvati and Lavender are in Gryffindor, but the same goes for Lee Jordan, Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnigan, Oliver Wood, Angelina Johnson, Alicia Spinnett and Katie Bell, and to a lesser grade also for Dennis and Colin Creevey (although both already showed, that they are not easily afraid. Dennis, when he fell in the lake, and Colin when he stood up to Malfoy and his bodyguards in CoS) Hickengruendler . From sylviablundell at aol.com Wed Oct 8 00:55:24 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:55:24 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82487 Many thanks, Melinda and Tom, for your explanations, which I will pass on to my own Tom. I think Tom (Wall) is probably right that in order to apparate, Sirius would have to turn back into a man, which would signal to even the dimmest Dementor that he was escaping. , I'm not quite sure about the mechanics of apparating. Is it necessary to know or to have visited the place you are apparating to? This doesn't seem to apply when using the Floo network, where it is sufficient to say the name of the place you wish to go to, but apparating is probably a lot more complex. Sylvia (who quite understands that Sirius would not want to appear in the middle of Sainsbury's.) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 01:00:28 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 01:00:28 -0000 Subject: Lavender and Parvati In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lauralexis > wrote: > > Hello, all. I am new to the list, and this is my first post.* I > searched the archives, but didn't much of anything that would help me > answer this: why are Lavender and Parvati in Gryffindor?? > > > > I've been wondering this a lot lately, actually, and haven't really > come up with anything. I believe that they're there for a reason, > and that their personalities ("like, omigod!") may just be a > smokescreen on JKR's part. > > > > Is there anything in canon that would confirm that they are > actually in the right house? I haven't see any myself. > > > > Right now, I can think only of one scene that indicates, why Lavender > is in Gryffindor. It's when Hagrid taught his class Blast Ended > Skrewts and they escaped. Most of the class ran away to hide from the > beasts, but Lavender helped trying to catch them. There is also that > scene, when Parvati defends Neville after the flying lesson. But I > don't think, that's really brave. It was nice, but not especially > brave. > > Generally, it is IMO very hard to say, why is this and this character > in Gryffindor. We haven't see much that indicates why Parvati and > Lavender are in Gryffindor, but the same goes for Lee Jordan, Dean > Thomas, Seamus Finnigan, Oliver Wood, Angelina Johnson, Alicia > Spinnett and Katie Bell, and to a lesser grade also for Dennis and > Colin Creevey (although both already showed, that they are not easily > afraid. Dennis, when he fell in the lake, and Colin when he stood up > to Malfoy and his bodyguards in CoS) > > Hickengruendler After rereading the first book recently, I remember noticing that both girls were more personable in that book than they are in the later books. They talk to the others, including Hermione, and seem friendlier. In the later books they are more clique-ish, and either snub Hermione or make fun of her. The boys (Dean, Seamus) will pal- around with the others, but the two girls seem to keep their distance. Ravenclaw Bookworm From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 02:25:55 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 02:25:55 -0000 Subject: Muggle World, Wizard World In-Reply-To: <005f01c38d20$a53cc900$b14e6751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82489 Laura: I'm cool down to here. This was like a very quick intro anthropology class-nice work, Ffred! You do have to assume that magical abilities are an evolutionary mutation. Just as there was a connection between the growth of permanent communities and the growth of conventional technology, so it should work for magic technology, But... Ffred: When the temples began to communicate with their rivals in other > cities, they discovered that the same was true for them: what they had in > common far outweighed any religious doctrine that divided them. Laura: Another thing that could have been going on was that magic was being distinguished from religion. That is, as monotheism took root and belief in one all-powerful God became the norm, people didn't look to other human beings to control nature, read omens or channel divine power the way they had before. We can see that in the Potterverse magic isn't the manifestation of religion. What it is, exactly, is the nature of Kneasy's question. Ffred: > 8. As wizard blood became more concentrated, another discovery was made. Occasionally a child would be born who had no innate magical ability, but was not a muggle either. These children could use certain magical appurtenances though they could not do magic themselves. They had a far greater psychic ability than muggles did, including an ability to communicate with animals, particularly cats. They also had a far greater perception, and were able to see the world as it really is, undeterred by spells and other glamours. Laura: I'm not sure about the squib thing-I don't see any evidence that either Figg or Filch is especially gifted psychically. And where do they use magical devices? Ffred: > 12. Although wizards agreed that they should divorce themselves from the important role in the muggle world that they had originally played, they did not all agree about how they should act towards muggles. A minority considered that the muggle world was there to be manipulated and used for their convenience. They developed dark magics to control the minds of others, on occasion provoking violent reaction against wizards from their muggle neighbours. > > 13. Eventually a climate of more general persecution developed. It is tempting to identify this with the development of the "world religions" of Christianity and Islam, with their ambivalent shading to hostile attitudes to wizardry and witchcraft, but it would be equally tenable to see it as bound up with the development of feudalism and the refusal of monarchs to contemplate a group within their country who did not owe them allegiance and obedience. Laura: Well, I would suspect that the hostility was very much a mutual thing. People being the jealous creatures we are, it's easy to see that non-magical types would be very envious of those who had powers they did not have-and couldn't (or wouldn't, according to your point of view) explain where those powers came from or how to get them. Envy could all too quickly morph into anger, then into violence and persecution. When the magical people defended themselves, understandably, with their powers, muggles would , inevitably become fearful and even more hostile...and so on and so on. It seems that when faced with people differently abled than the norm, we either celebrate (as with professional athletes) or shun them. Also, I have to say that laying the onus for the persecution of witches on Christianity and Islam isn't fair. They got that from us, I'm sorry to say. Not to stray too far off topic, but I looked this up in one of my Torah commentaries, and basically it said that witchcraft (the Hebrew specifically uses the feminine form)was prohibited because it was considered to be the practice of seeking to gain power over others so as to raise the practitioner above her victims-in other words, setting yourself up as a god. It's a prohibition against idolatry, in essence. All this, however, doesn't really get to what Kneasy was asking: is the WW a physical place or something metaphysical or both, somehow? I think it has to be metaphysical. It seems like an overlay onto the muggle world (remember overhead projectors?). Magical power inheres in the people who possess it rather than in any place or thing. Wands don't perform magic by themselves; buildings are ordinary until enchanted. You might say that wizards and witches have a different understanding of reality than muggles do-on the other hand, magical people have to hand-write all their books and letters, so maybe we each have our perceptual shortcomings. And just think how much grief a telephone could have saved Sirius and Harry in OoP... If magic ability is a sort of energy, I wonder if it would be measurable somehow. We can measure people's physical strength and certain mental abilities. JKR seems to suggest that there are varying degrees of magical power in witches and wizards-not everyone is selected to attend Hogwarts, and we must assume that that has something to do with ability. Still, it's a personal thing-it doesn't increase exponentially with the number of magical people around. Sure, more magic can be done but the magic doesn't coalesce somehow to become that much more powerful. At the QWC, the things that happened, both good and bad, were pretty much within the bounds of what we already knew to be possible. The vast numbers of magical people didn't, say, cause time to stop or suddenly become able to travel at the speed of light. There's more to be said on this topic, but I'm too tired to think what it is...this list has kept me up too late again! :-) From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 04:00:00 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 04:00:00 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail - parallels with Wormtongue? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82490 Geoff observed: >In the end of LOTR, Saruman is >killed by Wormtongue who in turn is killed. Folk have suggested that >Wormtail might have a part to play in the end of the HP saga; I >wonder if there are any parallels with the other "worm's" demise >(regardless of that damned prophecy!!)? Oo. Now take that a little further: Saruman is a character who, powerful in his own right, is the servant of someone more powerful while promoting his own agenda any time he can get away with it. On this theory, his "parallel" might be Lucius Malfoy, who's now locked up in Azkaban. Saruman was locked up, too, but he got away once Gandalf took his eye off him. And we've already seen that Azkaban has a big security flaw where Animagi are concerned -- perhaps Peter Pettigrew will be sent by Voldemort to help Malfoy escape. Saruman made himself scarce after his escape and, with Wormtongue, tried to destroy something unguarded and precious while the heroes were busy fighting a greater enemy. It's worth noting that both Malfoy and Pettigrew know a *lot* about the place Harry loves best after Hogwarts, and the people who live there. Especially Pettigrew. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com From tammy at mauswerks.net Wed Oct 8 04:16:45 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:16:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wormtail - parallels with Wormtongue? In-Reply-To: References: <3F817A0C.2415.1E6E9C@localhost> Message-ID: <3F83576D.15696.1A30553@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 82491 On 7 Oct 2003 at 20:56, meltowne wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" > wrote: > Don't forget, though, in LOTR, worms weren't only the soft, > squishy, wriggly, slimy things so > reminicsent of a rat's tail. Worm > was also another term for dragon, and dragons had a well- > deserved > reputation for sweet-talking the unwary (and indeed, even the MOST > wary) out of > hiding and into roasting range. > > Actually, Dragons are WYRMs not worm: > > Wyrm /w3:m/ [also wurm] noun. a type of dragon with a long slender > body, often able to breathe fire, with either none or four limbs but > usually without wings. Derives from the Old Germanic Gewurm. > > Melinda At the risk of going completely off of HP topics, I'd just like to say that Tolkien used the 'Worm' spelling for dragonkind. I know of the 'wyrm' spelling, too, yes, but Tolkien didn't use that one. Anyway, back on to HP stuff. :) I just got back my SS/PS, so I can FINALLY start my re-read! I have SOOO much to look for now that I hadn't really noticed the first time around. Yeah, I've only read OOP once (and a half), because we went on vacation just days after I finished it the first time, and during vacation, I offered my books to a friend who, it turns out, is not only a painfully slow reader, but was also moving and going in and out of the hospital, and only a few days ago admitted to herself and me that she wasn't gonna get a chance to read anything for a very long time. Anyhoo, I've been making notes of things to look for, and I'm am REALLY looking forward to that! *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 17:27:07 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:27:07 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82492 sylviablundell2001 wrote: > > The question was: why did Sirius go > > through all that trouble, swimming for miles and then journeying > > north when he could have simply apparated once he was outside the > > prison and re-appeared outside the grounds of Hogwarts. THEN he > > could have slipped in disguised as a dog. Would he require the > > wand he presumably didn't possess to apparate? It all sounds too > > simple, so I suppose there must be some good reason why he didn't > > use this method. Melinda wrote: > Perhaps because he didn't know if it was safe to apparate into > Hogsmead. The only place he could apparate there unseen would be > the Shrieking Shack, and having been in Azkaban for so long, he > wouldn't know if that was safe. Remember also that he first went to > Privet Drive, presumably a place he had never been before, so he > couldn't apparate there. > > Presumably he could have gone to Grimmauld Place as well, but that > might not have been safe either - we don't know exactly when his > mother died. Also it is entirely possible that he was so weak from being in Azkaban that his powers were drained from the animagus transformation and he lacked the strength to do any advanced magic. Another thought is that apparating is less reliable over long distances (even Dumbledore doesn't do it that often) so perhaps he had the strength, but he didn't trust himself to go so far. Just a thought. Meri From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 23:13:29 2003 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:13:29 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82493 Ravenclaw Bookworm "scoutmom21113" wrote: > > Lily's parents were proud to have a witch in the family, which > > indicates to me that they were either squibs, or the children of > > squibs ? close enough to know about the WW. Salit: > No. It is said in many places that Lily was muggle-born. Sherry asks: Where exactly (canon here please) does it say that Lily is a muggle or muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and still don't know where it says that Lily is muggle born. Only that her parents say "look we have a witch in the family" and the belief sort of took off but where does it say it in sentence form that they are muggles? From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 01:47:18 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 01:47:18 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven In-Reply-To: <001e01c38cef$4ca37900$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82494 urghiggi wrote: > > I keep hoping against hope that "die Ron die" is a red herring, > > inserted to tweak JKR's fans who are "on" to the whole seer!Ron > > phenomenon. Joj writes: > That's what I think JKR is doing. She has said numerous times > in interviews that people always ask her if Ron is going to die. > I think she put the whole tea leaves thing in there to mess with > us! I'm not sure what to think about Ron's future either. One thing that made me nervous for him was his statement in OoP (p. 100): "But there can't be anything worse than the AK curse, can there? What's worse than death?" However, Harry (who's not a bad seer himself) predicted in PoA that Ron would have 'trials and suffering' as well as 'great happiness' -- as Harry put it, "you're going to suffer but be very happy" (p. 105). I certainly hope that doesn't refer to the Quidditch season in OoP! By the way, is there something to this "What's worse than death" question that might point to books 6 and 7? Not only did Ron say it, but the idea played prominently in the fight between Dumbledore and Voldemort in the MoM. As Dumbledore said, ". . .your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness. . ." Could this be setting us up for a sacrifice by some character (Ron for Harry? Harry for Ron?) during a final duel with Voldemort? "augustinapeach" From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 02:19:43 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 02:19:43 -0000 Subject: Ted Tonks the Newscaster? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82495 Ted Tonks is a muggleborn. Could it be that later in life he pursued a muggle career? Say... a newscaster? "'Experts are unable to explain why the owls have suddenly changed their sleeping pattern.' The newscaster allowed himself a grin. 'Most mysterious.' SS (PS) US version pg.6 Peraps the newscaster grinned because he knew what it was all about. After all, it would be funny trying to act confused in front of Muggle viewers watching the news. In the next passage, the weatherman refers to him as Ted. If it is, in fact, Ted tonks, I doubt it will be at all important in later books. Maybe JKR left it as a tidbit for her readers to find?? "nkittyhawk97" From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 02:34:19 2003 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 02:34:19 -0000 Subject: Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82496 Jen: > > I've read on here before that Hermione represents the Mind, Ron > > the Heart, and Harry the Soul. To be successful in their quest, > > they need to now include Luna, the Intuition. She is the missing > > piece from Harry's equation, the power he denies himself every > > time he runs into an adventure without consulting his internal > > compass. Claire: > I think that Neville needs to be included as well as the Conscience > (standing up to his friends). He's of the "do the right thing" > mentality, which could tone down Harry's rashness. All of them > have pieces of the puzzle--put them together and they're formidable. psychobirdgirl(me): How does Ginny play into this equation? From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Wed Oct 8 02:31:32 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:31:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lavender and Parvati References: Message-ID: <003601c38d44$4c55f4a0$bc93aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82497 >From: Hickengruendler > > Generally, it is IMO very hard to say, why is this and this character > in Gryffindor. We haven't see much that indicates why Parvati and > Lavender are in Gryffindor, but the same goes for Lee Jordan, Dean > Thomas, Seamus Finnigan, Oliver Wood, Angelina Johnson, Alicia > Spinnett and Katie Bell, and to a lesser grade also for Dennis and > Colin Creevey (although both already showed, that they are not easily > afraid. Dennis, when he fell in the lake, and Colin when he stood up > to Malfoy and his bodyguards in CoS) > Iggy: I agree that I'd like to see why Lavender and Parvati are in Gryffindor. (I wondered about Neville, until he stood up to the Trio... then I understood the massive potential he has...) As for the others, I have a few ideas... as cornball as some of them are... *grin* Lee Jordan - He belongs in Gryffindor for not only being brave enough to be best friends with the Weasley twins, but for also frequently ignoring McGonagall's repeated warnings when he's commentating on the Quidditch matches. Dean Thomas - For being best friends with a boy who can potentially do more damage to himself and bystanders with a simple levitating spell than a box of fireworks on a bonfire. Seamus Finnigan - For having the guts to keep studying magic when he's a boy who can potentially do more damage to himself and bystanders with a simple levitating spell than a box of fireworks on a bonfire. Angelina Johnson, Alicia Spinnett and Katie Bell - For being Chasers on a Quidditch team that includes three of the Weasley Boys, and Harry all on their own side. (Of course, that would probably qualify anyone who faces their team for Gryffindor as well...) Oliver Wood - Ummmm... still trying to figure that one out. He seemed more like a Hufflepuff to me... albeit more stressed out than I have ever seen any Hufflepuff get.... Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "I'm surrounded by Anarchy, Chaos, and Mayhem. My job here is done." -- ABS FIRECAT From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 8 06:49:37 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 06:49:37 -0000 Subject: Wormtail - parallels with Wormtongue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82498 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: Tammy: > > Don't forget, though, in LOTR, worms weren't only the soft, > squishy, wriggly, slimy things so > > reminicsent of a rat's tail. Worm was also another term for > dragon, and dragons had a well- > > deserved reputation for sweet-talking the unwary (and indeed, even > the MOST wary) out of > > hiding and into roasting range. > Melinda:> Actually, Dragons are WYRMs not worm: > > Wyrm /w3:m/ [also wurm] noun. a type of dragon with a long slender > body, often able to breathe fire, with either none or four limbs but > usually without wings. Derives from the Old Germanic Gewurm. Oxford English Dictionary points out that "wyrm" is the Old English word from which "worm" was derived and would not be a modern word. I know of Tolkien's dragon views - Worminghall in "Farmer Giles of Ham" for example but I still have a gut feeling that JKR stuck with our "earthy" worm and that Peter Pettigrew is seen as far more of a wriggly character than a fire-breathing, flying type although he can obviously do just as much damage in a quiet, sneaky way. Geoff: From abush at maine.rr.com Wed Oct 8 02:47:59 2003 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 02:47:59 -0000 Subject: Question about HP (Evans?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82499 Sylvia wrote: > This may be a stupid question, but did Harry know what his mother's > maiden name was before the Pensieve scene? He knows Mark Evans' > name, but doesn't seem to attach any importance to it. It's unlikely > that the Dursleys would have discussed Lily with him, so the name may > never have come up and Harry is not a great one for asking questions. kylie responds: I believe that Harry did not know Lily's maiden name. I got that impression while Harry was in Snape's worst memory when JKR mentions that James was "now tracing the letters L. E." and Harry wonders, "What did they stand for?" kylie From abush at maine.rr.com Wed Oct 8 03:11:04 2003 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 03:11:04 -0000 Subject: question on flint in Priori Incantatem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82500 Okay, I guess I'm just stupid...I keep seeing mention of James and Lily Potter's echoes appearing in the wrong order from Voldemort's want in the GoF chapter "Priori Incantatem". I was under the impression that Voldie killed James first, then moved on to Lily to attack Harry, so if the echoes from the wand were appearing in reverse order, isn't that correct? Please enlighten me...thanks. kylie From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 04:41:34 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 04:41:34 -0000 Subject: Harry - why he doesn't ask questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82501 I've read a number of posts (and agree with them) that Harry doesnt ask questions. He doesn't ask them when we wish he would, he doesn't ask enough when he does ask, etc. Well, it just hit me that in PS/SS it's stated: "Don't ask questions - that was the first rule for a quiet life with the Dursleys." (p.20 US edition) If he's been trained since he was a one-year old to not ask questions, that would be a hard habit to break. No wonder he's not asking questions when we think he should!! He was never allowed to explore the natural curiosity that all people have! HedwigsTalons From oiboyz at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 04:45:05 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 04:45:05 -0000 Subject: Blood in the bottle? In-Reply-To: <20031007.022532.-185627.0.acpurplekitty@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82502 If you leave blood sitting still in a vial for an hour or more, it'll settle into layers-- yellowish clear plasma on top, red blood cells on the bottom, and a very thin layer of white blood cells in between. It definitely wouldn't be a uniform red liquid, so if that's what Harry saw, than he'd probably be wrong to assume it was blood. But then again, if you're a wizard who's planning to leave a vial of blood sitting around for a long time, I suppose you'd put some sort of anti-corruption spell on it. Perhaps there's a spell that keeps the blood from separating into layers too. In fact, it seems quite likely to me that the blood has some magical function (Divination? Dark Magic? Some kind of voodoo?) or comes from a magical creature-- why else would you keep it around in an ornate crystal bottle? And if the blood is magical in any way, I wouldn't expect it to act all clinical and settle into layers like boring ol' Muggle blood. :) Wow, what an arcane post I just wrote. And it was my first one, too! Hello everybody, I just discovered HPforGrownups and I was delighted to find it. :) "oiboyz" From phil_hp7 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 07:33:00 2003 From: phil_hp7 at hotmail.com (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:33:00 +0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82503 "spinelli372003" wrote: >Ravenclaw Bookworm "scoutmom21113" wrote: > > Lily's parents were proud >to have a witch in the family, which > > indicates to me that they were >either squibs, or the children of > > squibs close enough to know about >the WW. >Salit: > > No. It is said in many places that Lily was muggle-born. Sherry asks: >Where exactly (canon here please) does it say that Lily is a muggle or >muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and still don't know where it >says that Lily is muggle born. Only that her parents say "look we have a >witch in the family" and the belief sort of took off but where does it say >it in sentence form that they are muggles? [First post, and away from books, so bear with me] Harry is a half-blood. Tom Riddle says so, IIIRC Dumbledore agrees, and I think Hagrid says something similar too. So it would appear to be fairly certain. James Potter is *not* muggle-born. ISTR the Potter family being described as one of the old wizarding families. Therefore Lily *must* be muggle-born, or else HP wouldn't be a half-blood. Having said which, you've then got to wonder where Petunia Evans (as was) got to know quite so much about Azkaban and Dementors, etc. The Grangers don't seem to be so aware of the ins-and-outs of the wizarding world; I'm sure Hermione remarks on this at some point (?). HTH HAND -- Phil [sits back awaiting the response] _________________________________________________________________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess From dfran at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 8 04:53:44 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 04:53:44 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82504 "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > The question was: why did Sirius go > through all that trouble, swimming for miles and then journeying > north when he could have simply apparated once he was outside the > prison and re-appeared outside the grounds of Hogwarts. Sirius went through all the trouble for one reason... he was a criminal on the lam...escaping dementors no doubt...they are searching for emotion--"goodtime-human fun"...they do not find it. Those hungry to the emotions of someone who "actually escaped"...set out with a zealous that no one has ever seen before. 2. Animagi can apparate if they cast spells in animagus forms... hence he escaped from prison..(An on-going theory of mine.....) I suppose the problem is when they arrive in one point apparating and leaving disapparating in another form. This is very difficult. But house elves...a whole other story...Dobby apparates too much. Are elves exempt from this? This explains why they are so loyal.. And why they want to serve...(another post or two here). Sirius may be rash, but he is not stupid. He could apparate in his true form if needs be; just as he could apparate in his animagi form. (Hence Sirius did slash fat-lady's portrait.) HOWEVER once he apparates in his true form...who knows if he would change or not...(hence Rita returns as a beetle after DD expulses her from the grounds yet she returns..this is probably the same reason Sirius can return.) So you can apparate in Hogwarts under any non-MOM already approved animagi?!???(maybe--at the least how could the house elf staff "do it all)?????? Is this why DD keeps MOM as "at bay" as possible?!?!?!?! Fudge would be too eager to take ahold of anything that may endanger his political office.. "deedeee88" From dfran at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 8 05:05:48 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 05:05:48 -0000 Subject: Question about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82505 Sylvia: > > This may be a stupid question, but did Harry know what his mother's maiden name was before the Pensieve scene? He knows Mark Evans' name, but doesn't seem to attach any importance to it. It's unlikely that the Dursleys would have discussed Lily with him, so the name may never have come up and Harry is not a great one for asking questions. > > Geoff: > There is also the point that Evans is a very common name in the UK. > Harry could quite easily see the boy and know his name and the > thought that he is related not cross his mind because he would > consider it unlikely. In the beginning of OOP I don't think Harry is concerned, nor curious about the anonymous Evans reference... However..there are so few references to RL Lily that it has made me WWWAAYY suspicious. (And I said this after book one and have been complaining since). Harry, like most MALE adolecsents--60 percent and higher are obsessed/more concerned with their fathers rather than their mothers. This is why we come into HP's life at age 11 (to ensure the mystery). I love JKR...she can finish off the series without any clues to Harry's parentage if need be. (for the past five books 99 percent of it has been James, JAmes, JAMes, JAMEs, JAMES, (Lily) JAMEs,(Harry) JAMes, JAmes,(Harry), James(LILY), and, james.....) "deedeee88" From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 03:12:40 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 03:12:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One/MuggleWorld, Wizard World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82506 Kirstini wrote: > For the suggestion "Wandless magic only works in the Muggle world" > to be true, the WW and MW would have to be composed of separate > spheres. > Now "magic", as an abstract entity, could not possibly "know" whether > or not it was in WW-designated space or not, yet Harry never manages > wandless magic in his own defence in the WW. People, and magical > loopholes, tend to come to his aid. > Do unplottable territories have some sort of rarified air which alters conditions within them? Does the area that is the WW (a phrase which we > tend to use to mean only those spaces occupied by people and > institutions - physical, figurative) occupy a moveable, yet specific, geographic/environmental space, separated almost entirely from that of > the MW? Is it like a series of small air pockets, or are the gateways > - the shop window, the brick wall, the barrier - actually portals to > another dimension? I think it's fairly obvious that the WW does not > have another, secondary Britain existing just underneath the Muggle > one and spanning the whole country. However, either wizards themselves > or a highly concentrated wizarding presence has the ability to change > the properties of an area, it seems. Together, or in essence divided? Now me (Gorda): It was I who made the suggestion about why it is that Harry seems to be able to perform wandless magic only when surrounded by non-magical people and environment (sorry about that, should have made my post clearer). In any case, I wasn't really thinking about it, it was just a throw-away sort of suggestion. But now that I've had a chance to think about it... Hermione states in GoF that things such as electronics do not work within the Hogwarts grounds, because there's too much magic in the air. (Don't have exact page, sorry). So, let's imagine for a second that magic is a type of energy, say like an electromagnetic field. When a place is heavily enchanted (like Hogwarts) or when there's tons of magic people around (like at the Quidditch World Cup campsite, or at the graveyard with all the DEs), then the field is strong enough to make such Muggle things go haywire. It is also so strong, there's so much magic energy in the air, that the only way for wizards to do magic is to concentrate their personal magic energy through the use of a wand. But in a place like Little Whinging, where Harry is the only magical person for miles (we are led to believe this from the hearing at the MoM in OoP), then his magic energy "expands" and he is able when under great stress to harness that energy and say, jump to the top of the kitchens when Dudley and gang are chasing him (PS/SS) or blow up his aunt, or whatever else. What do you think? *jumps up and down eagerly* Gorda From koukla_es at yahoo.es Wed Oct 8 07:59:05 2003 From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (neith_seshat) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:59:05 -0000 Subject: Blood in the bottle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > But then again, if you're a wizard who's planning to leave a vial of blood sitting around for a long time, I suppose you'd put some sort > of anti-corruption spell on it. Perhaps there's a spell that keeps > the blood from separating into layers too. In fact, it seems quite > likely to me that the blood has some magical function (Divination? > Dark Magic? Some kind of voodoo?) or comes from a magical creature-- I think divination is a good bet, oiboyz. And what if it is to be used for "blood" rituals? I have always supposed since that it was Black family members' blood samples, and that may be used for checking if someone was "pure" enough for them. Other pet theory is that it may be used for Dark Magic rituals involving healing deadly wounds (not necromancy or bringing back the dead intended). Sorry if it has been said before, I've been on holidays, and I am trying to cope with thousands of mails. Neith From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 08:31:56 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 01:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ted Tonks the Newscaster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031008083156.49640.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82508 n the next passage, the weatherman refers to him as Ted. If it is, in fact, Ted tonks, I doubt it will be at all important in later books. Maybe JKR left it as a tidbit for her readers to find?? "nkittyhawk97" My reply: Oh I disagree with you there. I think that if the Ted Tonks is in fact the newsman at the muggle station it is because he works for the Ministry. It would not be that far of a stretch to assume that they have someone that works as a connection between both of the worlds. Perhaps, I am just crazy. ~Melanie ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 8 09:02:39 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 09:02:39 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: > Sherry asks: Where exactly (canon here please) does it say that Lily > is a muggle or muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and still > don't know where it says that Lily is muggle born. Only that her > parents say "look we have a witch in the family" and the belief sort > of took off but where does it say it in sentence form that they are > muggles? There are quite a few references to that. I remembered two right off but am certain there are others: CoS, PP. 316 (Am. ed.): Harry tells Tom Riddle (I use * around words that are in italics in the text): "But I know why you couldn't *kill* me. Because my mother died to save me. My common *Muggle-born* mother," he added, shaking with suppressed rage. and OoP, PP.648 (Am. ed.): In the pensieve scene James Potter tells Snape: "There you go," he [JP] said, as Snape struggled to his feet again, "you're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus - " "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!" Salit From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Wed Oct 8 11:44:13 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:44:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry - why he doesn't ask questions References: Message-ID: <000901c38d91$7f3044f0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 82510 HedwigsTalons wrote: I've read a number of posts (and agree with them) that Harry doesnt ask questions. He doesn't ask them when we wish he would, he doesn't ask enough when he does ask, etc. Well, it just hit me that in PS/SS it's stated: "Don't ask questions - that was the first rule for a quiet life with the Dursleys." (p.20 US edition) If he's been trained since he was a one-year old to not ask questions, that would be a hard habit to break. No wonder he's not asking questions when we think he should!! He was never allowed to explore the natural curiosity that all people have! Joj writes: At the beginning of OOtP, every Harry asks a question, Moody or someone, tells him to shut-up or shush or wait until later. Adults don't usually answer his questions anyway. They're always trying to protect him. He usually gets half answers or evasions when he asks questions of adults. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Wed Oct 8 09:12:53 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:12:53 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031008221120.00a573a0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82511 psychobirdgirl: > >How does Ginny play into this equation? She could be strength perhaps. I recall one of her brothers, a twin, I think telling Harry that her size, small, doesn't match her strength, ability with a charm. Tanya From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 8 10:48:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:48:09 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: > Salit: > > No. It is said in many places that Lily was muggle-born. > > Sherry: > Where exactly (canon here please) does it say that Lily > is a muggle or muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and still > don't know where it says that Lily is muggle born. Only that her > parents say "look we have a witch in the family" and the belief sort > of took off but where does it say it in sentence form that they are > muggles? Geoff: There are two places which come to mind where Harry is indicated as a half-blood: "Because there are strange likenesses between us, Harry Potter.... Both half-bloods..." Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.233) "Shut your mouth!" Bellatrix shrieked, "You dare speak his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your half-blood's tongue..." Bellatrix to Harry OOTP UK edition p.691) Harry is a half-blood, hence Lily is a muggle. QED. Geoff: From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 8 10:52:47 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:52:47 -0000 Subject: question on flint in Priori Incantatem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyliemckenzie1225" wrote: > Okay, I guess I'm just stupid...I keep seeing mention of James and > Lily Potter's echoes appearing in the wrong order from Voldemort's > want in the GoF chapter "Priori Incantatem". I was under the > impression that Voldie killed James first, then moved on to Lily to > attack Harry, so if the echoes from the wand were appearing in > reverse order, isn't that correct? Please enlighten me...thanks. > Geoff: That's a regular question! It has been revised in the later editions. Lily appears first, James afterwards. I think the etxt has been altered as well because Lily tells Harry to hang on, his father is coming. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Wed Oct 8 12:12:45 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:12:45 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82514 > Sherry: > > Where exactly (canon here please) does it say that Lily > > is a muggle or muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and > still > > don't know where it says that Lily is muggle born. Eloise: PS/SS, Ch 5 (p61, UK pb) Hagrid says, "...some o'the best that I ever saw were the only ones with magic in 'em in a long line o' Muggles - look at yer mum!" This is a clear statement that Lily's family were Muggles. Assuming Hagrid's right, of course. ;-) Harry evidently believes him though, because in CoS (Ch 17, p 233, UK pb) he refers to "My common *Muggle-born* [his emphasis] mother". ~Eloise From jamess at climax.co.uk Wed Oct 8 10:58:53 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:58:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spells Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B53018DE5BF@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 82515 Eclipse Asked: Someone mentioned that Hermione should have used a stunning spell rather than a silencing spell at the battle at the Ministry at the of OOP. I was just wondering if she knew that he would still be able to complete the spell? I can't remember a spell that used a wand that didn't need words. There is Anagmi transfermations and apparation that don't need words, if I remember correctly. (Don't have my books with me.) So I was wondering if this is something new or if a wizard or a witch gets better with magic, they don't need the words, just the thoughts? Thanks. James Said: I have given this one quite a bit of thought and I have come up with a theory. What have we been told have an influence on spells? - Wand Motion (swish and flick etc..) - Incantation (crucio / accio etc..) - Mental focus on the task (wanting to cause real pain with the crucio curse) My theory is that only the last one actually matters, The first two serve as a mental tool to create the focus (sort of like a mnemonic tool). For example, if you are taking a photo of a group of people it's common for the photographer to ask the subjects to "say cheese", not because the vocalisation has the slightest effect on the photograph but a side effect is the slightly open mouthed natural mouth shape that seems to work well in photographs. From ian.hamlin at virgin.net Wed Oct 8 10:55:01 2003 From: ian.hamlin at virgin.net (hamlin_i) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:55:01 -0000 Subject: Wandless magic in Chapter One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82516 adsong wrote: > > On the one hand, Uncle Vernon is reaping the ill will he's sown on > Harry since he was one year old. On the other, the Dursley's various > encounters Harry tends to do magic without trying and without a wand > when he is under great stress, like here (Uncle Vernon was choking > him) and later with the Lumos (when he was facing the dementors). > Conveniently, we have seen none of this wandless magic in other > sticky situations, notable the encounters with LV ( sure could have > used it while tied to that gravestone). Maybe wandless magic only > works in the Muggle world? Ian wrote: I always assumed the magic seen here was part of the protection Harry is suppose to have at Privet Drive, i.e. Vernon was trying to hurt him (well actually chocking him), so the charm kicked in and he was forced to let go. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 14:42:03 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:42:03 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82517 > 2. Priori Incantatem is supposed to play back all the spells > performed by the wand. We see Wormtail's hand, a number of dead > people and we hear the screams (result of the misc. Crucio's I > assume). The one spell we don't see, which should have been there - > right before the first of Harry's parents appeared - should have > been the AK curse that marked Harry's forehead. But there is no > mention of it. Has JKR ever explained that, or does someone else > cares to try and guess? :-) If Lily literally got in the way of the AK Voldemort cast to kill Harry, while simultaneously casting a charm to protect him, could her sacrifice have resulted in (1) her death, (2) the scar/rune on Harry's forehead, and (3) Voldemort's loss of physicality? Do we have canon that Voldemort killed Lily and then tried to kill Harry after that? If Harry was in his mother's arms just then, the damage wouldn't have needed to spread out very far to both kill Lily and scar Harry. Sounds like pretty powerful stuff to me: her husband dead only moments, knowing she was looking her death full in the face, she held her baby in one arm and grasped her wand in her free hand. With her last breath she uttered some syllables she knew or hoped would weave themselves into something protective of her child, even as the green flash enveloped them both. And then Harry's baby brain understood enough of what had happened to do a very primal wandless magic, bringing the entire house down (but not on his own head; or the protective magic was fresh enough to have shielded him from falling objects). Then again, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning. Sandy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Oct 8 15:36:00 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 15:36:00 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > > > Salit: > > 2. Priori Incantatem is supposed to play back all the spells > > performed by the wand. We see Wormtail's hand, a number of dead > > people and we hear the screams (result of the misc. Crucio's I > > assume). The one spell we don't see, which should have been there - > > right before the first of Harry's parents appeared - should have > been > > the AK curse that marked Harry's forehead. But there is no mention > of > > it. > > > Geoff: > Silly question, what form would the spell take? There wasn't a dead > body as in the case of Cedric, James et al. Hmm. We don't see any prior spells at all. What we see are the *results* of prior spells, mostly ghostly representations of victims and screams. The spells would just be flashes of green light. When Diggory checks Harrys wand after the QWC in GoF, a ghostly copy of the Dark Mark is produced. Again, the result, not the spell. Since the spell that marked Harry and blasted Voldy must have been powerful, I would have expected to see the results of it (at the very least the shade of a shattered Voldemort) emerge from the wand. Or am I being too logical? Kneasy From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 15:53:56 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 15:53:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a reason why lily didn't have to die.......... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82519 >"How touching..." it hissed. "I always value bravery...Yes, boy, your >parents were brave...I killed your father first, and he put up a >courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was trying >to protect you...Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have >died in vain." > >P.S. Voldemort values bravery? *blinks* What gives? As someone mentioned recently, there is no reason whatever to believe anything Voldemort says to anyone, let alone his worst enemy, unless there is separate evidence to support it. There is, however, one kind of bravery we have seen Voldemort value -- the ability to be faithful to him through adversity. That's why he values Crouch Jr. and Bellatrix LeStrange. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Instant message with integrated webcam using MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 16:34:24 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:34:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One/MuggleWorld, Wizard World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82520 Gorda: Hermione states in GoF that things such as electronics do not work within the Hogwarts grounds, because there's too much magic in the air. (Don't have exact page, sorry). So, let's imagine for a second that magic is a type of energy, say like an electromagnetic field. When a place is heavily enchanted (like Hogwarts) or when there's tons of magic people around (like at the Quidditch World Cup campsite, or at the graveyard with all the DEs), then the field is strong enough to make such Muggle things go haywire. It is also so > strong, there's so much magic energy in the air, that the only way for wizards to do magic is to concentrate their personal magic energy through the use of a wand. Laura (still thinking about this energy thing and fearing that I'm about to reveal my abysmal ignorance about physics): If Ffred is right, and I think he is, then magical ability is a sort of genetic mutation that occurs in certain people. The ability lies in the capacity to tap a source of internal power or energy that is not available to most people. Hence, the energy is not something that exists in the physical world, accessible to anyone, the way electromagnetic energy is. Instead, it inheres in the persons who possess it, and they can choose to use it or not. (see note below) There seem to be limits on what that power can do, but not many. Magical power can't reverse death or allow people to travel at light speed, for instance (or can it...?)-but it does allow for time travel. We also know that the amounts of magical power/ability differ from person to person in the WW-or else not everyone can harness that power to the same degree. That's why, presumably, not every magical child is invited to attend Hogwarts. And that would make sense if the power were a genetic trait rather than something that exists external to people. We know that having a few wizards around won't cause electronic devices to fail, but we don't know what number is required. Or it may be that it depends on how powerful the wizards and witches present are. But can we call that phenomenon a "magical field"? And if that's what it is, magical people gathered together in numbers would have to be careful to limit the field. Otherwise, for instance, the nearest muggle town to the QWC might have lost its electricity, and that's the last thing the MoM would have wanted. And what happens when the witch or wizard who casts a spell isn't physically present any more-how long does the spell last? What if the Order abandons Grimmauld Place and manage to move Kreacher elsewhere? (Portraits don't count, imo, because they can't do magic.) Would the protective charms stop working? If the Board of Governors decided to move the school to a new site, would Hogwarts suddenly become visible to muggles as it really is? Can spells be cast in perpetuity? Note: We don't know of anyone who does in fact choose not to use his/her magical powers, but presumably people could do so. We also know that in moments of high stress, magical powers can manifest themselves involuntarily, at least in children. We haven't seen any adult have that experience. From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 17:08:09 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:08:09 -0000 Subject: Blood in the bottle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > But then again, if you're a wizard who's planning to leave a vial of > blood sitting around for a long time, I suppose you'd put some sort > of anti-corruption spell on it.[...] In fact, it seems quite > likely to me that the blood has some magical function (Divination? > Dark Magic? Some kind of voodoo?) or comes from a magical creature-- > why else would you keep it around in an ornate crystal bottle? Annemehr: You just made the lightbulb appear over my head -- could this be the first appearance of dragon's blood? Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog card mentions that he'd discovered twelve uses for it, which, of course, must *not* be dark uses, so maybe it will come in handy for the Order one day soon. And you can bet that every bit of that card is going to be important before the end. Now I'm wondering if anyone's discovered twelve *dark* uses for dragon's blood? > Wow, what an arcane post I just wrote. And it was my first one, > too! Hello everybody, I just discovered HPforGrownups and I was > delighted to find it. :) > > "oiboyz" Welcome to the group! We always need arcane knowledge, since JKR seems to have put a little bit of *everything* in there! Annemehr From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Oct 8 17:46:09 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:46:09 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82522 > > sylviablundell2001 wrote: > > > ...Would he require the wand ...to apparate? > > Melinda wrote: > > Remember ...he first went to Privet Drive, presumably a place > > he had never been before, so he couldn't apparate there. > > > > > > --- "meriaugust" wrote: > Also it is ...possible that he was so weak from being in Azkaban > that his powers were drained from the animagus transformation > and he lacked the strength to do advanced magic. Another thought > is that apparating is less reliable over long distances > Meri --- "deedeee88" wrote: > > He could apparate in his true form if needs be; just as he could > apparate in his animagi form. (Hence Sirius did slash fat-lady's > portrait.)... > (hence Rita returns as a beetle after DD expulses her from the > grounds yet she returns..this is probably the same reason Sirius > can return.) > So you can apparate in Hogwarts under any non-MOM already approved > animagi?!???> "deedeee88" APPARATING: a) Do you need a wand? ~Sylvia~ b) Do you have to have been to your destination before? ~Melinda~ c) How easy is it compared to Animagus Spells? ~Meri~ d) How reliable over long distances? ~Meri~ e) Apparate in both human and animagus forms? ~deedee~ f) Apparate in Hogwarts if in Animagus form? ~deedee~ I don't have OotP with me. Canon quotes fron other books. a) Wands may not be necessary to apparate (CANON book + Chap):- - POA21: Fudge assumed Black apparated out of the tower (without a wand) - GOF7: Salesmen apparated at Quid Wld Cup (carrying merchandise, wnd hands full?) - GOF7: Barty Couch apparated and could have passed for a Bank Manager that Vernon would accept (so wandless?) - GOF9: When the Dark Mark appeared, 20 wizards apparated & Harry noticed they all had their wands out (so before, others didn't have wands out?) - GOF11: Mr Weasley prepared to apparate while fastening his robe (2 handed job) - GOF33: DE arriving at the graveyard were described as "hooded and masked", (no wands drawn) b) Location doesn't needed to be pre-visited:- - GOF36: Snape said DE were to apparate by LV side, no other geographical location was known. c) Apparating is a difficult spell. That is why testing is manditory. - GOF6: Arthur talks of getting splinched (leaving body parts behind) if you do it wrong. "You don't mess around with Apparition. There are plenty of adult wizards who don't bother with it. Prefer brooms - slower, but safer." - GOF15: Min age in UK is 17 years old to be tested. d) Distance is risky? hmm. GOF7 says Portkeys were set up in 5 continents, but not how far away apparating was used. If this transportation is anything like Summoning Charm, you need to "Just ... concentrating really, really hard on it, it'll come" e) Apparating in animagus form is possible. Prof McGonagall and Black appeared as animals around Privot Drive. f) .. however, animagus cannot apparate around Hogwarts. Sirius wouldn't have needed a password if he could apparate inside Gryfindor Tower. He used the Maunderer's Secret Passage to get into Hogwarts. Rita's Beetle could fly around the grounds as any other bug could. Hope this helped ~aussie~ From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Oct 8 17:55:54 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:55:54 -0000 Subject: Lupin's bag - PROFESSOR In-Reply-To: <3F82C03A.4030607@subreality.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82523 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Thren wrote: > a_reader2003 wrote: > > >Carolyn: > > > >Steve, I can help you with two bits of canon on this ! In FB, as a > >footnote to the werewolf entry it says: 'For a heartrending account > >of one wizard's battle with lycanthropy, see the classic 'Hairy > >Snout, Human Heart' by an anonymous author (Whizz Hard Books, 1975)'. > > > >However, I have to say, the book doesn't sound very academic ! > > > > > > > > And moi (Thren): > > I've heard a lot of speculation about Lupin having written that book, > but you've got to consider two things: One, it was *published* in 1975, > which means that it would have been written a few years before- and no > matter which of the plausible Marauder school years theories you follow, > Lupin would have been a young teenager at the time of its writing. At > that point he had hardly struggled at all in life (compared to how he > would later), and he really wasn't that tragic until after James and > Lily died. Second, if he *had* written it at that time, it would hardly > have been a shining academic work- he was a teenager. :) > > I think the Academic!Lupin theory is nice, but I always just assumed > that he'd had a teaching position(s) in the past. When was the registry > put into effect? Carolyn: The Register was started in 1947. Glad you corrected me on the possible dates - it sounded the wrong sort of book for Lupin to have written ! From a_williams1 at pacific.edu Wed Oct 8 18:45:35 2003 From: a_williams1 at pacific.edu (Aesha Malikah Takreem Williams) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:45:35 -0700 Subject: Why one belongs in Gryffindor References: <1065608751.5175.65571.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005701c38dcc$5c66ed80$d8430a0a@bre.uop.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 82524 There's been some posting as of late as to why some people are in Gryffindor, since we haven't seen them display the courage or bravery neccesary to be chosen for the Gryffindor House. But why can't they all just have the potential for great courage or bravery? There are some people who are just a little more cowardly... perhaps these people aren't extraordinarly brave, but they're not cowardly, either, they are strong, and that is why they're chosen for Gryffindor. If everyone was doing brave things all the time, would there be enough story left to tell? Heh. Perhaps there have been things in the past that required these people to have great courage, and of course we don't know about them. I would argue that Dean, Hermione, Colin and Dennis are brave just for stepping out of a world they've known for 11 years and jumping into one they knew nothing about! Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 8 19:02:34 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 19:02:34 -0000 Subject: Why one belongs in Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <005701c38dcc$5c66ed80$d8430a0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Aesha Malikah Takreem Williams" wrote: > I would argue that Dean, Hermione, Colin and Dennis are brave just > for stepping out of a world they've known for 11 years and jumping > into one they knew nothing about! Except that this applies equally well to Justin Finch Fletchly (hope I spell his name correctly) of Hufflepuff or to Penelope Clearwater of Ravenclaw. I am sure there are several others. I don't think there is enough data to answer the question. Surely Luna Lovegood (Ravenclaw) has shown more courage than many of the Gryffindors. My guess is that the determining criterion when there is no clear differentiator is what the student wants (or does not, as was the case for Harry who was put in Gryffindor, against the Sorting Hat preference for Slytherin, because he (Harry) did not want to go to Slytherin). Hermione says already on the train in SS/PS that she wants to be in Gryffindor, so I imagine that was the determining factor in her case. It would fit well with JKR's philosophy that it is our choices that really determine who we are. Salit From samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 20:16:49 2003 From: samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com (samwise_the_grey) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:16:49 -0000 Subject: Spells (longish) In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B53018DE5BF@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Sharman wrote: > Eclipse Asked: > So I was wondering if this is something new or if a wizard or a witch gets better with magic, they don't need the words, just the thoughts? Thanks. > James Said: > I have given this one quite a bit of thought and I have come up with a theory. > What have we been told have an influence on spells? > - Wand Motion (swish and flick etc..) > - Incantation (crucio / accio etc..) > - Mental focus on the task (wanting to cause real pain with the crucio curse) > My theory is that only the last one actually matters, The first two serve as a mental tool to create the focus (sort of like a mnemonic tool). Here's a thought. I've studied Gorgias lately and he actually compares speech to incantations. It's purely metaphorical but its what brought all this to mind. Skillfully spoken words can have a physiological change on the listener and (I suppose) a passionate speaker. So perhaps a spell actually changes the wizard physically? The body calling on all those magical energies? And I agree with the mental focus point. Clearly a wizard must not only have natural talent but experience in using a spell. The more experience the more natural it is. Harry no longer needs to concentrate as hard on a summoning charm now that he's had sufficient training. A more difficult spell like apparating may need more concentration, but Fred and George don't appear to be thinking too hard when they use this form of magic. They've learned how to drive. How hard do you concentrate while driving your car? Splinching might even be caused by lack of mental focus and not just inexperience. Just saying the word "accio" brings to your mind what the effect of the spell is and on a purely psychological way makes the wizard capable casting the spell. To say it makes it real. Neville isn't a bad wizard because he lacks the natural talent, it's his self- defeating mental block that gives him trouble. If he doesn't think he can do it he won't. Same thing with Harry's accio. When he was preoccupied with something else instead of his frustration at not being able to do it he gets the pillow into the box just fine. As far as wandless magic goes two things tend to coincide with its happening: 1. Distress (psychological and physiological changes occuring at once) 2. Youth (inexperience, hormonal balance(?)) Harry doesn't use a wand or spell to blow up Aunt Marge. Evidence points to apparating needing neither. You either speak Parseltongue or you don't. Thing is though, wandless magic can occur reguardless of mood or age. So should we classify the different types of wandless magic? Accidental (which is like this primordial thing that occurs on an unconscious level but still meets our needs)and Purposeful (a practiced method of doing wandless magic). Are children the only ones capable of accidental wandless magic? Harry's been doing wandless magic for a long while now, although we should keep in mind that he's a special case. He's 15, pushing 16, surely if formal education stunted this type of magic he wouldn't be able to repeal Uncle Vernon in OotP. We don't know if Ron or McGonogal can do accidental wandless magic or not. Is it possible? I don't see why not, even if it is a rare occurrence, but there isn't enough evidence either way. And here's another thought concerning mind reading (sorry can't remember canon term). Snape uses a wand and an incantation to see Harry's mind and can usually tell when Harry's up to something (not much seems to go past Snape). Voldemort may be able to read Wormtail's mind with neither. It's strongly hinted time and again that Dumbledore is reading Harry's mind and he is never shown holding a wand or saying a spell. Harry sees into Snape's mind with an unusual choice of a counterspell and (IS IT POSSIBLE?? I HOPE SO!) possibly obtained answers to a test from Parvati's mind without even trying. So as far as mind reading goes it appears that a wand&incantation is neccessary for delving deep into the psyche and peripheral information can be obtained without either. But again, if you don't have the natural talent for a kind of magic, then there is little you can do. Sounds very Greek to me. Oh, one last thought and I'll shut up. Creativity appears to be very important as to how a wizard casts a spell and the actual effect. Ron uses wingardium leviosa to drop the club on the troll's head, which is not quite the way the spell is traditionally used. Planned or not, Ron's need to stop the troll are met. Either he does this unconsciously (primordial magic still being used to an extent) or he's just thinking outside the box. Dumbledore, greatest wizard of the day according to many, is praised on his ability to use magic in ways no one has ever thought of. So surely being a creative individual is important to being a "great wizard". ~Samwise From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Oct 8 20:45:12 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:45:12 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82527 Salit asked: > > > 2. Priori Incantatem is supposed to play back all the spells > > > performed by the wand. We see Wormtail's hand, a number of dead > > > people and we hear the screams (result of the misc. Crucio's I > > > assume). The one spell we don't see, which should have been there - > > > right before the first of Harry's parents appeared - should have > > been > > > the AK curse that marked Harry's forehead. But there is no mention > > of > > > it. Geoff: > > Silly question, what form would the spell take? There wasn't a dead > > body as in the case of Cedric, James et al. Kneasy: > Hmm. We don't see any prior spells at all. What we see are the *results* > of prior spells, mostly ghostly representations of victims and screams. > The spells would just be flashes of green light. > > When Diggory checks Harrys wand after the QWC in GoF, a ghostly > copy of the Dark Mark is produced. Again, the result, not the spell. > > Since the spell that marked Harry and blasted Voldy must have been > powerful, I would have expected to see the results of it (at the very > least the shade of a shattered Voldemort) emerge from the wand. > > Or am I being too logical? It has been theorized before that possibly the spell was skipped because it didn't function properly. We usually assume that the AK simply baxckfired on Voldemort, and his previous experiments in immortality protected him from death. However, we haven't been given any hard facts about that fateful spell. I don't think it was the spell itself, but rather a default reponse to AK and the mystery defensive spell colliding, that de-bodied Voldemort, destroyed the house, etc. If this is true, then those affects can't be defined as a direct result of Voldemort's wand. The actual result of Voldemort's AK (i.e. nothing) does appear in the Priori Incantatem sequence. -Corinth From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 8 20:51:04 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:51:04 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" > wrote: > > > > Salit: > > > No. It is said in many places that Lily was muggle-born. > > > > > > Sherry: > > Where exactly (canon here please) does it say that Lily > > is a muggle or muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and > still > > don't know where it says that Lily is muggle born. Only that her > > parents say "look we have a witch in the family" and the belief > sort > > of took off but where does it say it in sentence form that they are > > muggles? > > Geoff: > There are two places which come to mind where Harry is indicated as a > half-blood: > > "Because there are strange likenesses between us, Harry Potter.... > Both half-bloods..." Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.233) > > "Shut your mouth!" Bellatrix shrieked, "You dare speak his name with > your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your half-blood's > tongue..." Bellatrix to Harry OOTP UK edition p.691) > > Harry is a half-blood, hence Lily is a muggle. QED. > > Geoff: Also, in a chat at link---> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0200- scholastic-chat.htm It was asked:"Since Harry Potter's parents were sorcerers and Petunia was Harry's mother's sister. Shouldn't Petunia be a witch or wizard?" With JKR's answer b eing, "No. As Hagrid explains in Book I, sometimes a witch or a wizard occurs in an otherwise Muggle family, just as a Squib is a non-magic person who occurs in an otherwise magic family." JKR's categorical comparison of a squib in a Wizard family versus a lone muggleborn in a muggle family seems to also label the Evans family as "muggle". Arya From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 21:00:45 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:00:45 -0000 Subject: Blood in the bottle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > You just made the lightbulb appear over my head -- could this > be the first appearance of dragon's blood? Dumbledore's > Chocolate Frog card mentions that he'd discovered twelve > uses for it, which, of course, must *not* be dark uses, so > maybe it will come in handy for the Order one day soon. And > you can bet that every bit of that card is going to be > important before the end. Richard here ... As I recall, the dragon steak that Hagrid was using to soothe his Grawp-abused brow (and other facial parts) oozed a greenish blood. This leads me to think it is NOT dragon blood at all, thought I am at a loss to say what it really is. Given its container (cut crystal), we can assume that it is valuable, but as there is no other mention, and no additional information, we are well into the realm of pure speculation here. Richard From sydenmill at msn.com Wed Oct 8 21:26:24 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:26:24 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "augustinapeach" By the way, is there something to this "What's worse than death" > question that might point to books 6 and 7? Not only did Ron say > it, but the idea played prominently in the fight between Dumbledore > and Voldemort in the MoM. As Dumbledore said, ". . .your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always > been your greatest weakness. . ." > "augustinapeach" Bohcoo responds: I loved this question you brought up, "augustunapeach." I hope everyone weighs in with their opinion, or directs us to earlier posts on the matter. I, too, was hit rather strongly by these remarks. At first I thought that the thing worst than death would be isolation or absolute aloneness. But Voldemort lived that way for 14 years and didn't seem to mind being alone; he only mentioned that he couldn't hold a wand and perform magic and those were the things that bothered him while he was "less than the meanest ghost." True, he possessed beings, but for the most part they were snakes or rats, not many wizards (which, by the way, I found most puzzling. He latched onto the back of Quirrel's head, but why not possess him outright? Too weak? Unicorn blood not potent enough to strengthen him to a power that would allow that?) So, then -- what is worst than death? Being a dementor-kiss survivor - - alive but souless? Being alive, like the Longbottoms, but insane, unable to remember or interact with loved ones? Or, being shunned? Rejected from interaction with the very people whose company and attention you crave? Voldemort hated being part-Muggle and abandoned by his father, in essence, shunned. Yet, other than living in an orphanage, which I am sure was no walk through the roses, it sounds as if he had plenty of friends at Hogwarts -- which, as we have seen in Harry's case, can go an awful long way toward filling in the emotional gaps left by absent or uncaring parents. I imagine this is really a two-part question, then. What is worst than death? And, what is worst than death to Voldemort? Bohcoo From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 8 21:45:57 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:45:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle world, wizard world References: <1065608751.5175.65571.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005601c38de5$a7f3b620$b14e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 82531 Laura wrote: >Another thing that could have been going on was that magic was being >distinguished from religion. That is, as monotheism took root and >belief in one all-powerful God became the norm, people didn't look to >other human beings to control nature, read omens or channel divine Although modern Paganism certainly does link magick and religion, Classical religion had a strict separation between the two (I'm speaking of our world, of course). My feeling was that there had to be a "key moment" in the Potterverse when wizardry realised that _they_ had to introduce such a separation and the "great discovery" seemed to be the front runner for that moment. >I'm not sure about the squib thing-I don't see any evidence that >either Figg or Filch is especially gifted psychically. And where do >they use magical devices? The biggest example in canon is Filch's ability to use the Room of Requirement to meet his needs for supplies. My comment about psychic ability stems from both Figgy's and Argus's ability to see through magical concealments. When Filch leaves the Hogwarts environs, he seems perfectly able to find his way back, even though it's hidden from muggles. Similarly, Arabella is able to see the dementors in Little Whinging. And there's the thing with the cats, of course. >Also, I have to say that laying the onus for the persecution of >witches on Christianity and Islam isn't fair. They got that from us, >I'm sorry to say. Not to stray too far off topic, but I looked this We don't of course know how religious history worked in the Potterverse. The key questions to ask would be: did the Diaspora happen there also? and when exactly did the period of persecution of magical people begin? As I tried to imply, there _could_ be no tie up at all between religion and the persecution, or it could be all-important. It's such an arcane point that I suspect it'll never be made clear in the forthcoming 2 books! >All this, however, doesn't really get to what Kneasy was asking: is >the WW a physical place or something metaphysical or both, somehow? >I think it has to be metaphysical. It seems like an overlay onto the >muggle world (remember overhead projectors?). Magical power inheres >in the people who possess it rather than in any place or thing. Yes, I think it's implicit in my post that the two worlds coexist. >If magic ability is a sort of energy, I wonder if it would be >measurable somehow. We can measure people's physical strength and But would it be measurable in any way that a muggle could comprehend? Given the wide range of functions that magic can fulfil in the WW, any muggle scientist who tried to research it would need to invent an entire new technical language to try to comprehend something which in our terms defies logic and can cause gross changes in physical reality. >varying degrees of magical power in witches and wizards-not everyone >is selected to attend Hogwarts, and we must assume that that has >something to do with ability. Still, it's a personal thing-it Though an alternative explanation is that Hogwarts attendance is decided culturally rather than in terms of ability.There's no suggestion, for example, that the predominant group in the student body is either those with very high or very low levels of magical ability. My own alternative is that attendance is aimed partly at muggleborns (who need to be accultured into the WW) and partly at those students from families who want their children to have a qualification in magic either for prestige reasons or because they see it as a good career move (rather than going into the family eel farming firm, for example) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From thewierdone18 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 12:46:48 2003 From: thewierdone18 at yahoo.com (thewierdone18) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:46:48 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82532 Sylvia wrote: > I think Tom (Wall) is probably right that in order to apparate, > Sirius would have to turn back into a man, which would signal to > even the dimmest Dementor that he was escaping. I'm not quite sure > about the mechanics of apparating. Is it necessary to know or to > have visited the place you are apparating to? This doesn't seem to > apply when using the Floo network, where it is sufficient to say > the name of the place you wish to go to, but apparating is probably > a lot more complex. Also, like Hogwarts, Azkaban probably has a charm put on it that prohibits people form apparating or disapparating -- it just wouldn't doooooo. Otherwise, all the prisoners would be apparating and disapparating and it wouldn't be a prison... "thewierdone18" From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 8 12:47:16 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:47:16 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > WRT Rita, ditto here. She is a nasty lying reporter who through GoF > was on a mission to hurt as many people as possible through the > spreading of rumors and half-truths. Rita was not out to hurt people. She just didn't care. She was out to sell papers. Articles about Harry sells papers and since his real story was boring, she spiced it up. There is no indication she's a horrible person. Sure Rowling would like her boiled in oil, but that is not an indication of the character's displayed worth. Rita hasn't a sterling character, but she's not been proven to be deliberately malevolant either. Just selfish. Golly From c_naegle at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 13:08:23 2003 From: c_naegle at yahoo.com (c_naegle) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 13:08:23 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82534 Casper: > > V did not hear the entire proph. and did not know at the time that Harry may or may not have been the one in the proph. Remember at the time there were two boys who the prophecy could have been about. V made Harry the one when he choose to go to Godric's Hollow to try and kill him. That was the marking of the equal, but V had no idea about that part of it. Harry himself questions why V didn't wait until the two of them grew up and he saw who was the strongest wizard. < < Geoff: > This reminds me of something that has puzzled me. It has been suggested here and in many other posts that Voldemort acted rashly by attacking Harry at the age of 15 months and not leaving him to grow up and then decide which of the two boys represented the threat. A follow up to this is, why under those circumstances, did he wait so long? Why was he not in there, firing from the hip, when Harry was just a tiny child? >>> I believe it relates to when V got the information on the prophecy and when he knew who it may have been about. But we have to always keep in mind that he only knew the first little bit. That was what made him think he needed to go and kill Harry. Had he known the entire thing he certainly would have put some more thought into it. Casper From c_naegle at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 13:15:19 2003 From: c_naegle at yahoo.com (c_naegle) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 13:15:19 -0000 Subject: Wandless magic in Chapter One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hamlin_i" wrote: > Ian wrote: > > I always assumed the magic seen here was part of the protection Harry > is suppose to have at Privet Drive, i.e. Vernon was trying to hurt > him (well actually chocking him), so the charm kicked in and he was > forced to let go. I seem to recall bits and pieces of wandless magic through out the stories. Mostly around DD. Didn't he wave his hands and change the school banners at the end of Book 1. Maybe that was the movie and not in the canon. I seem to at least remember thinking about several occasions where some others had done some wandless magic.- From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Wed Oct 8 12:52:03 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:52:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Question about HP (Evans?) References: Message-ID: <006201c38da2$1df4b2a0$7b95aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82536 From: "deedeee88" > Harry, like most MALE adolecsents--60 percent and higher are > obsessed/more concerned with their fathers rather than their > mothers. This is why we come into HP's life at age 11 (to ensure the > mystery). > > I love JKR...she can finish off the series without any clues to > Harry's parentage if need be. (for the past five books 99 percent of > it has been James, JAmes, JAMes, JAMEs, JAMES, (Lily) JAMEs,(Harry) > JAMes, JAmes,(Harry), James(LILY), and, james.....) > > "deedeee88" Iggy: I think you're also missing something important here... Throughout all 5 books, the only way people compare Harry to his mother is with his eyes. Other than that, whenever someone who new his parents sees him, they always say that he's the spitting image of his father. And this isn't always physically, since they also notice similar mannerisms and (of course) his talent for being a Seeker. Not only this, but a good deal of the undertone of OotP is people starting to realize that he's NOT his father and that he's more and more his own person... much like any teenager growing up. At about age 15, most teens begin more strongly establishing their own identities. And the person this strikes the hardest is the person Harry cares about the most at the time... Sirius. So of course there's been a stronger "presence" of his father in Harry's life, even with his parents dead, and it's not because Harry is obsessing over him at all. It's because everyone else who knew his parents point it out. Can someone site me canon where Harry has a marked preference to his father compared with his mother? (From everything I've read, he's equally interested in both, but for different reasons. His mother because of the sacrifice she made for him, and his father because e wants to learn WHY people keep saying he's so much like James.) 'Nuff said Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "UFO'S ARE REAL (the Air Force doesn't exist.)" -- ABS FIRECAT From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Wed Oct 8 13:12:56 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:12:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blood in the bottle? References: Message-ID: <006301c38da2$1ed68720$7b95aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82537 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: > > But then again, if you're a wizard who's planning to leave a vial > of blood sitting around for a long time, I suppose you'd put some sort > > of anti-corruption spell on it. Perhaps there's a spell that keeps > > the blood from separating into layers too. In fact, it seems quite > > likely to me that the blood has some magical function (Divination? > > Dark Magic? Some kind of voodoo?) or comes from a magical creature-- > From: "neith_seshat" > I think divination is a good bet, oiboyz. > > And what if it is to be used for "blood" rituals? I have always > supposed since that it was Black family members' blood samples, and > that may be used for checking if someone was "pure" enough for them. > Other pet theory is that it may be used for Dark Magic rituals > involving healing deadly wounds (not necromancy or bringing back the > dead intended). > > Sorry if it has been said before, I've been on holidays, and I am > trying to cope with thousands of mails. > > Neith Actually, the blood isn't likely to be used for Divination, unless you want to find out information about the person who's blood it is. And while that does support the idea of checking its "purity"... why keep it after that? As for the "Dark Magics" involving healing deadly wounds... Healing falls under the "White Magic" category unless you are healing by draining the life essence and vitality from an unwilling person to do it... thus doing harm to achieve your ends. While this is a possibility, it would only really work once, since you'd both need to use all the blood, and you'd kill the "donor" in the process. The only thing I could think of for that is that it was obtained from someone and is being held for contingencies. (But then again, why didn't Mrs. Black use it to steal the vitality from the "donor" to extend her own life and keep from dying, if that was the case.) If it was blood being saved for magic, I'd think it would be used for massively powerful hexing or a summoning spell. But this is also less likely, since most rituals using blood that's not your own (and even a lot that is your own) is used for "sympathetic magics." (These are spells that use either a bit of the subject, or an item that's especially significant to the subject, to disregard distance when casting the spell. Most people link it to Voodoo, but it can be used in almost any style of magic.) I would think it would be more likely that the blood is either something with an innately high level of magic in itself, such as dragon blood, or is inherently toxic. IMHO, either of these two possibilities would be the most likely. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Oh No, Not Another LEARNING EXPERIENCE!!" --- ABS FIRECAT From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Wed Oct 8 13:40:25 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:40:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) References: <5.0.2.1.2.20031008221120.00a573a0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <006501c38da2$209415a0$7b95aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82538 > psychobirdgirl: > > > >How does Ginny play into this equation? > > Tanya > She could be strength perhaps. I recall one of her brothers, a twin, I think > telling Harry that her size, small, doesn't match her strength, ability with > a charm. > I actually think that she's more likely to be his common sense. While Hermione has the intellect, Ginny probably has more innate common sense than the entire Trio put together. (A good example of this is when she forces Harry to talk about his worries that he's being possessed, and lets him know how stupid he's being for not coming to talk to her... someone who's actually BEEN possessed.) Just my two centaur's worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From oiboyz at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 14:35:52 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:35:52 -0000 Subject: Ted Tonks the Newscaster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82539 wrote: > Ted Tonks is a muggleborn. Could it be that later in life he pursued > a muggle career? > Say... a newscaster? > the weatherman refers to him as Ted. If it is, > in fact, Ted tonks, I doubt it will be at all important in later > books. Maybe JKR left it as a tidbit for her readers to find?? > Well, JKR has certainly had a habit of making seemingly-obscure details important later on. And she went to the trouble of telling us Nymphadora's father's name; that makes it more likely in my view that we'll get to meet him before the series is over. I don't know if he's a newscaster, but it's a cool theory... I always figured that newscaster's small grin was simply his straight-arrow reaction to reporting strange and not-very-important news. Newscaster or not, I want to meet Ted Tonks-- this series needs a Muggle-born who's involved in the magical world. We don't have one yet, do we? From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 15:06:36 2003 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 15:06:36 -0000 Subject: Lavender and Parvati In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82540 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lauralexis > > wrote: > > > Hello, all. I am new to the list, and this is my first post.* > I > > searched the archives, but didn't much of anything that would help > me > > answer this: why are Lavender and Parvati in Gryffindor? I've been wondering lately if the POA boggart MUMMY (was that Lavender's or Parvati's? I forget) will have anything to do with Ron's letter from his trip to Egypt and the upcoming war... Unless it was just supposed to be funny that the mummy tripped over its bandages. Maybe the Gryffindor class will be act more clearly if they have to face such fears in the future? smaragdina5 From bumchum22 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 8 15:34:23 2003 From: bumchum22 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sharada?=) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:34:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions on Lily's Birth In-Reply-To: <1065608751.5175.65571.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031008153423.21704.qmail@web86004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82541 >Sherry asks: Where exactly (canon here please) does it say that Lily is a muggle or muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and still don't know where it says that Lily is muggle born. Only that her parents say "look we have a witch in the family" and the belief sort of took off but where does it say it in sentence form that they are muggles? ------------------------------------------------------- Sharada: HI, I have been in this group for a week and I have been reading all the mails. I have a thought to add about Lily as to how we know whether she is a muggle born witch. We know from book five that Dumbledore tells Harry "Voldemort chose you, a half - muggle born just like him, to mark as his equal" James Potter ,(I don't recollect which book) has magical parents. And also the fact that Snape says to Lily in Book Five" I dont need help from Mudblood", which a term (bad) for Muggle for Witches and Wizards, thats why Lily's parents are indeed Muggles. -Sharada From henning2 at terra.com.br Wed Oct 8 16:10:46 2003 From: henning2 at terra.com.br (celebrimborcormacolindor) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:10:46 -0000 Subject: Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82542 I have something to say about Neville Longbottom and his role in the Harry Potter series. I never paid any special attention to Neville until recently. In fact, my interest in Neville started when I read Chapter 37 of OoP, when Dumbledore is talking to Harry about the prophecy and says: "Sybill's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times. One, of course, was you. The other was Neville Longbottom." I think this text is *surprising*, as it suggests a similitude between Harry and Neville. Remember, the Sorting Hat took a good time before make Neville a Gryffindor (SS/PS 07) and he fell from the broom the first time he tried to fly (SS/SP 09); he tried to stop Harry, Hermione and Ron when they went after the Philosopher's Stone and, as result, he was jinxed by Hermione (SS/SP 16); Minerva McGonagall called him "abysmally foolish" because he wrote down all the passwords for the week and then lost the paper, allowing Sirius Black to enter Gryffindor Tower (PoA 13); and so on. Neville combines good intentions with laughable and sometimes shameful mistakes. In his clumsiness he is the typical antihero, as much as the brave and resourceful Harry is the typical hero. So, it is certainly surprising to suggest that Neville (and not Harry) could be the hero. But this is not only surprising; it is also *gratuitous*. The author had no need whatsoever to invent this similitude between Harry and Neville, which is neither necessary, nor useful to resolve any mystery or to explain any piece of the story until now. If Voldemort had attacked Neville in one of the early books, then would make sense to write the passage cited above (Chapter 37 of OoP) to justify the mistake of the villain in recognizing the hero. But as far as I know there is nothing like this in the first books, nothing that suggests the need to assimilate Harry and Neville. Once I read the passage cited above, I started to think about Neville, who Dumbledore says can be a true hero. What is the role of Neville in the story till now? What were his actions? What difference has he made to the events that have occurred in the Harry Potter series? And the more I thought, the more I realized that *until now Neville had no role in the conflict*. The important facts happen with (or come from) Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, Snape, Hagrid, Sirius; but not with (or from) Neville. In fact, it's entirely possible to tell the tale of Harry Potter without mention Neville or his actions. From this point of view he is much like any other classmate of Harry, let's say, Seamus Finnigan or Dean Thomas: not a star, not even a supporting role, just an extra. He may be a sympathetic extra, but no more than this. But once I realized that Neville was an extra, I immediately realized that he is a strange extra, because *JKR spent a lot of her time on him.* She introduced Neville very early in the series (SS/PS 06); in fact, he appeared before Hermione. From that point on, JKR never missed a chance to tell us about him: he often loses his toad (SS/PS 06), he lives with his grandmother (SS/SP 07), he is short (SS/SP 07), he made a mistake in his first Potions class (SS/SP 08), he forgets the password to the Gryffindor Tower (SS/SP 09) and so on. Neville is a conspicuous extra who frequently appears in the narrative despite his unimportant role. Well, if JKR put so much time in Neville, making efforts to tell us about his personality and his background, it must be because *Neville will have an important role in the story*, a role that JKR has been planning since SS/SP. From *this* point of view we can understand our conspicuous extra: since the beginning his character has been prepared for great things, things that haven't happened yet (that's why he appears to be an extra), things that will happen in book six and/or book seven. And that is my fundamental thesis: Neville will be an important character in book six and/or book seven, much more important than he is until now. Now, the precise role of Neville in the future books remains open to speculation. But I must say that *I don't think Neville is the hero*. First, because he is the typical antihero, as I stated above, and, second, because Dumbledore said the prophecy is about Harry (OoP 37), and Dumbledore is the alter ego of JK Rowling, acting and appearing as someone who knows all, who possesses full knowledge about any fact, about the past, the present and the future. It would be foul play to put lies in his lips to deceive the reader. Having said that, I must add that *I bet the future role of Neville is connected to the prophecy*, with the canon cited above, which states that the prophecy could be applied to him. In fact, I think the similitude between Harry and Neville looks gratuitous precisely because it is the first part of a story that hasn't been told yet, a story that will appear in books six/seven. In book five the similitude is detached and looks gratuitous because it is waiting for the future books, when it will have full sense. Maybe someone (Voldemort? Death Eaters? Fudge? Snape?) will think Neville is the true hero; maybe Neville has some magical link to Harry, a link that explains the similitude between them; maybe Neville had been attacked in the past; maybe there is a link that connects the similitude between Harry and Neville and Voldemort's attack on Neville's parents. But, in any case, I think the applicability of the prophecy to both Harry and Neville will play an important part in the story. Fernando Henning (with Manya Elf's help) From lhuntley at fandm.edu Wed Oct 8 23:13:31 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 19:13:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0876D9B2-F9E5-11D7-A21B-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 82543 Golly: > Rita was not out to hurt people. She just didn't care. She was out > to sell papers. Articles about Harry sells papers and since his real > story was boring, she spiced it up. > > There is no indication she's a horrible person. Sure Rowling would > like her boiled in oil, but that is not an indication of the > character's displayed worth. > > Rita hasn't a sterling character, but she's not been proven to be > deliberately malevolant either. Just selfish. What about the article she wrote about Hermione? That was *definitely* deliberate malice, spurred on my Hermione's "cheek" at the Three Broomsticks. *tilts head* I've never really been able to figure out why a successful reporter would give a damn about what some little 14 yr. old girl said to her and go through all the trouble to write an insulting article (complete with quotes from interviews with the Slytherins) about her for *the* major newspaper of the WW. It's very odd, isn't it? Doesn't she have anything better to do? Anyway, even barring that, I still think she falls under the category of "horrible person," but perhaps I just have higher standards than you do. *shrugs* Laura (who thinks Rita's type is one of the worst kinds out there. *nods solemnly*) From kneazle255 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 18:57:40 2003 From: kneazle255 at yahoo.com (kneazle255) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:57:40 -0000 Subject: Lavender and Parvati In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82544 Scoutmom writes: I searched the archives, but didn't much of anything that would help me answer this: why are Lavender and Parvati in Gryffindor?? I've been wondering this a lot lately, actually, and haven't really come up with anything. I believe that they're there for a reason, and that their personalities ("like, omigod!") may just be a smokescreen on JKR's part. Is there anything in canon that would confirm that they are actually in the right house? I haven't see any myself. Right now, I can think only of one scene that indicates, why Lavender is in Gryffindor. It's when Hagrid taught his class Blast Ended Skrewts and they escaped. Most of the class ran away to hide from the beasts, but Lavender helped trying to catch them. There is also that scene, when Parvati defends Neville after the flying lesson. But I don't think, that's really brave. It was nice, but not especially brave. Kneazle now: Parvati and Lavender both joined the DA when it started. Seamus didn't. I think that's pretty courageous for a pair of airheads. Kneazle From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 8 19:46:01 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 19:46:01 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82545 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > Since the spell that marked Harry and blasted Voldy must have been > powerful, I would have expected to see the results of it (at the very > least the shade of a shattered Voldemort) emerge from the wand. > > Or am I being too logical? > Hmm, an interesting thought. I wonder whether, if Voldemort's disembodiment was the result of a spell reflection which was not part of a usual AK spell, whether the "monitoring" equipment on the wand would pick it up, if you follow my drift. Geoff From sgebhardt at t-online.de Wed Oct 8 21:31:07 2003 From: sgebhardt at t-online.de (kiel2fisch) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:31:07 -0000 Subject: Why one belongs in Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <005701c38dcc$5c66ed80$d8430a0a@bre.uop.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82546 Aesha > There's been some posting as of late as to why some people are in Gryffindor, since we haven't seen them display the courage or bravery neccesary to be chosen for the Gryffindor House. But why can't they all just have the potential for great courage or bravery? There are some people who are just a little more cowardly... perhaps these people aren't extraordinarly brave, but they're not cowardly, either, they are strong, and that is why they're chosen for Gryffindor. If everyone was doing brave things all the time, would there be enough story left to tell? Heh. Perhaps there have been things in the past that required these people to have great courage, and of course we don't know about them. I would argue that Dean, Hermione, Colin and Dennis are brave just for stepping out of a world they've known for 11 years and jumping into one they knew nothing about! > I totally agree with you. Look at all the adults (Molly, Arthur, Lupin, Bill or Charly, even Sirius and James), did they do something that qualified them for Gryffindor while they were at school? Not that we knew. IMO it's even not (only) the past that matters here. A 'real' Gryffindor shows his courage in front of the problem. And the Sorting Hat'd know. This old hat must surely have abilities every human resource manager would be envious of... Sunnyi From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Oct 8 22:53:52 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:53:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't Sirius apparate? References: Message-ID: <3F849580.4080206@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82547 > Sylvia wrote: > I think Tom (Wall) is probably right that in order to apparate, > Sirius would have to turn back into a man, which would signal to > even the dimmest Dementor that he was escaping. I'm not quite sure > about the mechanics of apparating. Is it necessary to know or to > have visited the place you are apparating to? This doesn't seem to > apply when using the Floo network, where it is sufficient to say > the name of the place you wish to go to, but apparating is probably > a lot more complex. As I hypothesized before, an Animagus can change WITHOUT A WAND. He could change into a dog because its his specialized animagus form, but could not apparate or do any other magic without a wand. So till he could get a wand, the only power he had was his animagus form. Its ludicrous to think he had a wand while in Azkaban, so he HAD to be able to change into his Animagus form with no wand, which supports the idea that what separates Animagi from people who can transform, is the ability to do it without a wand. I believe wizards can take other forms using a wand, but only an animagus can change to a 'certain form' wandless. Meaning that if an Animagus has a wand, they can change into other things besides their Animagus form. Like Krum's shark-head trick. I find it unlikely that Krum just happens to be a shark animagus 'in training'... Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Oct 8 23:05:09 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:05:09 -0500 Subject: Wandless magic in Chapter One References: Message-ID: <3F849825.1040802@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82548 Ian wrote: > > I always assumed the magic seen here was part of the protection > > Harry is suppose to have at Privet Drive, i.e. Vernon was trying > > to hurt him (well actually chocking him), so the charm kicked in > > and he was forced to let go. Casper: > I seem to recall bits and pieces of wandless magic through out the > stories. Mostly around DD. Didn't he wave his hands and change the > school banners at the end of Book 1. Maybe that was the movie and > not in the canon. I seem to at least remember thinking about several > occasions where some others had done some wandless magic.- We can also count Sirius taking his animagi form in Azkaban. This making animagi ability more special tha just changing into a rabbit. Unless you think the MOM is so stupid as to let him have his wand while in prison.. Considering they tend to BREAK wands of lawbreakers. (see Hagrid and the threats to break Harry's wand for examples) Jazmyn From redearth3000 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 23:25:33 2003 From: redearth3000 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Dudley adopted? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031008232533.99871.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82549 LPD wrote: > Does anyone else suspect that Dudley Dursley might be adopted? >>> I don't know, but could this be what he heard in his head when the dementors where in Little Whinging? Duke From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Wed Oct 8 21:37:49 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 10:37:49 +1300 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031009103541.00a47970@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82550 Bohcoo wrote: >And, what is worst than death to Voldemort? >>> This was a good post, as I read it one thing came to mind. What would be worse than death for LV? Well, I cannot say if this is possible in the WW, but having his powers stripped and being a full muggle would just about do it for that. Tanya From lhuntley at fandm.edu Wed Oct 8 23:38:58 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 19:38:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna and the Trio (Re: FINALLY someone else notices...) In-Reply-To: <006501c38da2$209415a0$7b95aec7@rick> Message-ID: <9651772C-F9E8-11D7-A21B-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 82551 Iggy: > While Hermione has the intellect, Ginny probably has more innate common > sense than the entire Trio put together. > > (A good example of this is when she forces Harry to talk about his > worries > that he's being possessed, and lets him know how stupid he's being for > not > coming to talk to her... someone who's actually BEEN possessed.) > Okie dokie, kids. This common misperception has just about driven me 'round the bend. (I don't mean to pick on you, Iggy, sorry.) Ginny did *not* force Harry to do anything. Ginny (and the rest of the Weasleys) let Harry sulk in his room for two days, letting him think that he was going evil/crazy and that they were all scared of him (which I think they sort of were, actually). It was *Hermione* who, not more than a half a minute after she arrived a number 12 (there were still snowflakes in her hair), found out what happened from Ginny and Ron, found Harry, dragged him to his "friends", and made them all sort it out. Personally, I was quite disappointed in Ron (not so much Ginny, because they aren't really that close) for not at least making some *effort* to help Harry. I mean, he *knew* why Harry was upset and they shared a *bedroom* for the love of God. I expected at least an *attempt* on Ron's part to get Harry out of his shell. I know that Ron's not good with the "let's talk about our feelings" things, and Harry was deliberately trying to avoid him, but he could have at least not abandoned Harry entirely. On the other hand, it *was* Ron's father that Harry/Nagini tried to murder....maybe he didn't know how he felt about it all? Again, I think Ron and Ginny *were* a little frightened of Harry (as he thought), if only for the reason that they didn't know what to say or do for him. Also, I'm not even that sure that Ginny's "words of wisdom" on being possessed were all that good. I mean, Quirrell didn't seem to suffer from memory loss when V. possessed him. And Harry didn't either in "The Only One He Ever Feared." Either it's a discrepancy in JKR's definition of possession, or they were different types of possession all together, and Ginny "Suddenly the Absolute PERFECT Girl for Harry" Weasley was wrong, wrong, wrong. Not that it didn't put Harry's mind to rest, though. I wonder if she wasn't just lying to make him stop freaking out. Laura (who is a bit miffed about Ginny's sudden personality transplant in OotP, if you hadn't noticed.) From jayandjay22 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 22:25:59 2003 From: jayandjay22 at hotmail.com (fourjays22) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:25:59 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82552 Bohcoo wrote: > > By the way, is there something to this "What's worse than death" > > question that might point to books 6 and 7? Not only did Ron > > say it, but the idea played prominently in the fight between > > Dumbledore and Voldemort in the MoM. As Dumbledore said, > > ". . .your failure to understand that there are things much > > worse than death has always been your greatest weakness. . ." I always felt that what Dumbledore was referring to here as worse than death was living under tyranny (ie the tyranny of Voldemort). Voldemort's weakness is that he doesn't realize that people are willing to die for their cause (ie, the cause of good, of keeping the world (WW/MW) free from the likes of Voldemort, etc.). People are willing to -- over and over again -- risk their lives, against incredible odds, to fight the good fight. Because Voldemort doesn't truly understand that his enemies fear living under his control more than they fear death, he doesn't realize the lengths people are willing to go to in order to fight him and prevent his return to power. I don't have Book 5 with me, but I believe one of the portraits in Dumbledore's office (the relative of Sirius) says at one point that Slytherin's are brave, but if given the choice they will always save their own skins first (I apologize if this is the wrong attribution). When I read that, I immediately thought of Dumbledore's statement to Voldemort -- those who are fighting the good fight WON'T save their own skins first, precisely because there ARE fates worse than death. Voldemort doesn't understand this. (Aside -- I've just read Granger's book (Hidden Key to Harry Potter) and he reads the books as Christian allegory and statements like this as reference to a Christian afterlife.) That said, I do think for Voldemort there is a fate worse than death - - a life w/out power or any hope of regaining it. As he said (again paraphrasing) -- there is no good or evil, there is only power and those too weak to claim it. Julie From sgebhardt at t-online.de Wed Oct 8 21:02:53 2003 From: sgebhardt at t-online.de (kiel2fisch) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:02:53 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82553 More thoughts and wishes about who will die or live: urghiggi wrote: > <> >Yep. Toast. In a blaze of Gryffindor Bravery that does his Gran > >proud. Neville Lives: 0% IMO Neville teams up with Luna. Both of them become famous for the discovery of some magical miracles (like fast-corned-heliopaths or something), helping to win the war of the wars and finally receiving the magic counterpart of the Nobel Price in Sweden. Neville and Luna survive: 88 % urghiggi wrote: > < < << (and killing one is the death of both). JKR's already destroyed one > < < < The Sergeant Majorette says >>I'm 100% certainly JKR is not going to kill off > the main character.>> > [...], but the point made > that there is no lesson if the hero dies gives me hope. No further comment to that! Harry lives: 200 % >Hickengruendler: While I think another student will die, my money is >on Ginny Weasley (sorry Melanie). I think Harry will fall in love >with her and than lose her, too. No way! At least one love in Harry's life should be stronger than death AND overcome. Ginny seems to become self-conscious enough to stand up to Harry. Is there a better couple? Not really sure, who wrote this: > <> > Yeah. JKR wouldn't kill herself off. Very good point. > > <> Ron and Hermione IMO will surely survive; otherwise they cannot get married in the end. (Ron will be the first Weasley having lots of children AND being able to effort them because of Hermione achieving the job of Hogwarts ever youngest Headmistress.) If you wonder why Hermione's going to marry Ron, here's my guess: After a glorious comeback of Victor Krum (glorious but short, given to a last heroic fight over Karkarov and other foreign DE's ), Hermione realises that Ron is / was ever her weakest point: no scientifically based explanation or all the books in the world could make her understand why she loves him. He's just the one. There's already an interesting development in Ron's character during OOTP. As Malfoy indicates Harry is in some aspects only "second best to Weasley". This fact should be almost necessary to their friendship. Harry wasn't at all pleased by Pettigrew's slimy adoration of James and would surely not appreciate if Ron was always second best to him. In short, Ron is meant for Head Boy and Quidditch Captain in Book VII (probability 100 %). urghiggi wrote: > > I keep hoping against hope that "die Ron die" is a red herring, > > inserted to tweak JKR's fans who are "on" to the whole seer!Ron > > phenomenon. The seer scenes, especially during the O.W.L's, are IMO some of the funniest passages in the whole story and I hope there'll be more just for the fun (not for turning into reality!) *grim*, sorry: *grin* > TJ:Dumbledore-- Dead, Dead, Dead. I'm 100% certain DD will not be alive > at the end of Book 7, having died heroically to save Harry/the > world/whatever. Yes, I think DD gets a bit tired. Dumbledore lives: 1% Hagrid? IMO it's going to be his brother Gwarp, rather than Hagrid, who won't make it till the end (not before saving Hagrid's life or convincing his giant friends of fighting against Voldemort, of course). I'm pretty sure that Madame Maxime hasn't played her whole role yet, either. Hagrid lives: 95% > TJ: < I could see him getting killed off.>> > If he survived, he'd have to mellow out -- feh. I'd like to see > him die heroically and become a Hogwarts ghost; maybe thereby > releasing Sir Nicholas and becoming, reluctantly, the Gryffindor > ghost! urghiggi wrote: > < < << The exception is if he hooks up with Tonks or > << somebody (and they live), then Lupin's survival sky rockets to 50% Lupin & Tonks, what a nice thought! Makes another couple! Calimora: > << (My take on the mess. Alternitively you could flip a > << random Potter book open to a random page and say that everybody > << mentioned on the page dies. It'd probably be about as accurate.) Qu? yo no tengo la culpa de verte caer... >> ~Melanie > And somebody in the blasted Weasley family has to die. LOL They are far too big. And it's not going to Percy because who would care. I know I personally would not. I'd be happy. > > << Iggy McSnurd << Honestly, if it's not Ron or, preferably, Percy... (who I think will die << shortly after coming to his senses about what's really important in life) << I think it would be Arthur... and he'd probably die protecting a group of > << the Muggles he loves so dearly. As to Percy I agree with Iggy. But I think Arthur's had his 'mortal-danger-part' already. All the Weasley children (except Percy) suffered as if he had already died, so it doesn't make sense to replay the scene. Maybe the more distant Weasley's, like Bill or Charlie, are rather dispensable to the plot and therefore in more danger to be killed. Sunnyi (attending her very first divination class with Florenz Tre- own-ninny in a few minutes) From ALICAT999 at WESTNET.COM.AU Wed Oct 8 14:57:50 2003 From: ALICAT999 at WESTNET.COM.AU (alicia) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:57:50 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven References: Message-ID: <004401c38dac$8d067d90$558a48ca@e7d8c1> No: HPFGUIDX 82554 urghiggi wrote: > I keep hoping against hope that "die Ron die" is a red herring, > inserted to tweak JKR's fans who are "on" to the whole seer!Ron > phenomenon. Joj writes: > That's what I think JKR is doing. She has said numerous times > in interviews that people always ask her if Ron is going to die. > I think she put the whole tea leaves thing in there to mess with > us! "augustinapeach": > I'm not sure what to think about Ron's future either. One thing > that made me nervous for him was his statement in OoP (p. 100): "But > there can't be anything worse than the AK curse, can there? What's > worse than death?" However, Harry (who's not a bad seer himself) > predicted in PoA that Ron would have 'trials and suffering' as well > as 'great happiness' -- as Harry put it, "you're going to suffer but > be very happy" (p. 105). I certainly hope that doesn't refer to the > Quidditch season in OoP! 'Alicat' says: I'm going to cut in here, because this is where my input concerns.. I do believe Ron did suffer badly, when he was in the room with the planets in OOTP, and I do believe that he was extremely happy after the event since he couldn't control himself from laughing. Just my input, what do you think? From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 8 18:46:28 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 18:46:28 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82555 Salit: > > > 2. Priori Incantatem is supposed to play back all the spells > > > performed by the wand. Kneasy wrote: > Hmm. We don't see any prior spells at all. What we see are the *results* > of prior spells, mostly ghostly representations of victims and screams. > The spells would just be flashes of green light. > > When Diggory checks Harrys wand after the QWC in GoF, a ghostly > copy of the Dark Mark is produced. Again, the result, not the spell. > > Since the spell that marked Harry and blasted Voldy must have been > powerful, I would have expected to see the results of it (at the very > least the shade of a shattered Voldemort) emerge from the wand. > > Or am I being too logical? I don't think you're being too logical, but I guess I just figured we only saw [results of] spells from VM's wand *up to a point*. Isn't it possible that the connection was simply broken before we saw this last image you're asking about [a shattered Voldemort]? I mean, we *know* VM performed many, many more spells than what we saw that night; I just figured we only made it up to James' death before the connection was broken. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here. Siriusly Snapey Susan From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Oct 9 00:31:50 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:31:50 -0000 Subject: Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celebrimborcormacolindor" wrote: > >snip< > So, it is certainly surprising > to suggest that Neville (and not Harry) could be the hero. I don't think it is surprising at all. From the very first book, Neville has been one of the bravest characters in the books. After book 5, I would consider him as the bravest character, with MAYBE the exception of Harry. He fought Crabbe and Goyle single-handed, although he knew, that he had no chance against them. He sneaked during the corridors, trying to warn Harry and Hermione that Draco wanted to tattle-tale about Norbert. He tried to stood uo to the trio, when they wanted to sabe the Philosopher's stone. To Harry, Ron and Hermione, who were one of the few people, who probably even noticed him. He risked their friendship, because he stood up to them. This is a kind of bravery, I haven't seen, fo example, from Remus Lupin in the books. He admitted at once, that it was him, who wrote down the passwords. Would you? I probably wouldn't. Not to mention, that he faced his boggart regularly every week. > > But this is not only surprising; it is also *gratuitous*. The author > had no need whatsoever to invent this similitude between Harry and > Neville, which is neither necessary, nor useful to resolve any > mystery or to explain any piece of the story until now. I actually think Neville holds a big clue for the solution of these books. And, memory charm or not, I think it has something to do with his bad memory. hat he needs to remember something important. But this is of course just a guess. > If Voldemort > had attacked Neville in one of the early books, then would make sense > to write the passage cited above (Chapter 37 of OoP) to justify the > mistake of the villain in recognizing the hero. But as far as I know > there is nothing like this in the first books, nothing that suggests > the need to assimilate Harry and Neville. Hmm, I might be mistaken, but I think, if Voldemort had attacked Neville, than Neville would either have been dead or the "chosen one". > > Once I read the passage cited above, I started to think about > Neville, who Dumbledore says can be a true hero. What is the role of > Neville in the story till now? Until now he IMO is a true hero. How else would you consider the deed of someone, who faced the curse that drove his parents insane, to help Harry. And he knew it was coming and still urged Harry not to give the prophecy to the dead eaters. > What were his actions? What difference > has he made to the events that have occurred in the Harry Potter > series? And the more I thought, the more I realized that *until now > Neville had no role in the conflict*. The important facts happen with > (or come from) Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, Snape, Hagrid, > Sirius; but not with (or from) Neville. In fact, it's entirely > possible to tell the tale of Harry Potter without mention Neville or > his actions. Yes, it's also possible (at least until now) to tell the tale of Harry Potter without Professor McGonagall, Fred, George, Percy or Ginny. But they are all pretty big characters, and I would say Neville falls in the same category. In fact you can tell the story without Hagrid (surely Dumbledore could have taken Harry from the Dursleys). And Neville, in contrast to Hagrid or McGonagall or even Snape, was already part of one showdown. In fact, you can tell this books without most of the characters, but it are these characters, that make the flair of the books. I would even guess, that without characters like Neville or Ron's silblings, the books wouldn't be so popular. They bring reality in these books and many readers can identify themselves with these characters. I, for example, can identify myself with Neville. I was not bad in school, but surely not as brilliant as Hermione, I wasn't as popular as Harry is most of the time and I only sometimes had the snarky humor Ron has, but it is Neville's struggling, especially in the first and third book, where I can really see the most of my school-self. Also, there is a war coming, and Harry needs as many allies as possible. With the characters you mentioned above, they will have no chance to defeat all the Death Eaters and Dementors and possibly giants (especially because I am sure that the powerful Dumbledore will be dead before the ultimate showdown). They need as much allies as possible, and for this, JKR needs to introduce several characters, who can play that part in the later books. I snipped the rest of your post. About Neville's future role: I already mentioned that I think he will somehow give an important information. I also can see Neville going several ways. I am pretty sure his magic abilities will become better (as they already did in OOTP), now, that he not only has a new wand, but also probably more self confidence after the fight in the DoM. Than, he will either become one of Harry's most loyal followers, who will fight with him till the end, as it was heavily forshadowed in the scene of the DoM, or he will continue to be sort of a loner and trie to get the Death Eaters, driven mostly by revenge. In this case, I hope Harry helps him to overcome his possible bitter feelings. Of course in OOTP, it seems that Neville is far more able to deal with his difficult situation than Harry is, but Neville soon needs to talk about his problems, or otherwise he might explode. Eather way, I am sure he will become a strong fighter for the good side. This might end in him dieing a heroe's death, but I am still a strong supporter that it is him, who will end up as a teacher (especially because JKR states that it won't be Harry, Ron or Hermione), so maybe he will teach Herbology in the end, or even DADA. Hickengruendler From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 00:33:47 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:33:47 -0000 Subject: Ginny's possesion v's Harry's (was: Luna and the Trio....) In-Reply-To: <9651772C-F9E8-11D7-A21B-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > Iggy: > > While Hermione has the intellect, Ginny probably has more innate common > > sense than the entire Trio put together. > > > > (A good example of this is when she forces Harry to talk about his > > worries > > that he's being possessed, and lets him know how stupid he's being for > > not > > coming to talk to her... someone who's actually BEEN possessed.) > > Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: > Also, I'm not even that sure that Ginny's "words of wisdom" on being > possessed were all that good. I mean, Quirrell didn't seem to suffer > from memory loss when V. possessed him. And Harry didn't either in > "The Only One He Ever Feared." Either it's a discrepancy in JKR's > definition of possession, or they were different types of possession > Laura (who is a bit miffed about Ginny's sudden personality transplantin OotP, if you hadn't noticed.)) I think there definately are different kinds of possession. Ginny's possession was clearly much different to Harry's but then again so was Quirrell's. Quirrell was possessed yet was fully aware of what he was doing yet he died when Voldemort left him. Ginny had no memory of what she had done when taken over by Voldemort, yet she eventually worked it out and in the end tried to fight back. Riddle tells Harry in the Chamber of Secrets that she struggled and cried before he suceeded in getting her into the Chamber. This sounds a bit more like the imperious curse to me (remember Mr Crouch in the forrest during GoF). In the Chamber of Secrets Riddle tells Harry that Ginny poured her soul into the diary and he grew stronger because of it. He literally drained the lifeblood out of her until Harry destroyed the diary. Similar to some suggestions that Voldemort's attack on Harry left some part of Voldemort in him, I wonder if some of Riddle (ie. his memories)were transferred to Ginny? If so, Harry might be able to learn why Riddle became Voldemort and find a weakness in his armour that could lead to his destruction. Legimency anyone? LDP From amani at charter.net Thu Oct 9 01:26:09 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:26:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: questions about HP (Evans?) References: Message-ID: <00d301c38e04$59a7fa20$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82558 Ravenclaw Bookworm "scoutmom21113" wrote: > > Lily's parents were proud to have a witch in the family, which > > indicates to me that they were either squibs, or the children of > > squibs - close enough to know about the WW. Salit: > No. It is said in many places that Lily was muggle-born. Sherry asks: Where exactly (canon here please) does it say that Lily is a muggle or muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and still don't know where it says that Lily is muggle born. Only that her parents say "look we have a witch in the family" and the belief sort of took off but where does it say it in sentence form that they are muggles? Taryn: It's definitely been a topic of argument. I'm convinced that JKR isn't going to pull out an origin for Lily other than that of muggle-born, and I don't really understand why there are so many people who seem determined to make her a pureblood of some sort. It isn't ever directly stated in the books, no. Implied plenty. And here's an interesting bit from a JKR article: She has become edgy. "I do get kind of frustrated with this conservative world thing because..." She explains at length, and somewhat defensively, that the school had to be a boarding school because most of the magic happens in the middle of the night, and if it was a day school you wouldn't get the same sense of community. She also argues that, in a way, Harry does reflect the modern world because he is mixed race - his dad being a wizard, his mum being a muggle (human) witch - which seems to be pushing it a bit. (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700-guardian-hattenstone.htm) Now, you can always pull the "it's not a direct quote it so it was the interviewer embellishing it" route, but that's always been good enough proof for me. Plus Petunia's, "I saw her for what she was--a freak, our parents were proud having a witch in the family" stuff in PS and Tom referring to Harry as a half-blood like him (not technically true, but Tom's prejudice obviously extends far enough that if you're the child of a wizard parent with muggle parents, you count as half-blood). I think the role of Harry's mixed blood is important to the story, to his position as mediator between the two sides. It balances the trio, as well. Ron's pureblood, Hermione's muggle-born, and Harry (although not immediately as a muggle parent and a wizard parent) has both. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Thu Oct 9 01:40:01 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:40:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) References: <0876D9B2-F9E5-11D7-A21B-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <016501c38e06$5c190f40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82559 Golly: > Rita was not out to hurt people. She just didn't care. She was out > to sell papers. Articles about Harry sells papers and since his real > story was boring, she spiced it up. > > There is no indication she's a horrible person. Sure Rowling would > like her boiled in oil, but that is not an indication of the > character's displayed worth. > > Rita hasn't a sterling character, but she's not been proven to be > deliberately malevolant either. Just selfish. Laura: What about the article she wrote about Hermione? That was *definitely* deliberate malice, spurred on my Hermione's "cheek" at the Three Broomsticks. *tilts head* I've never really been able to figure out why a successful reporter would give a damn about what some little 14 yr. old girl said to her and go through all the trouble to write an insulting article (complete with quotes from interviews with the Slytherins) about her for *the* major newspaper of the WW. It's very odd, isn't it? Doesn't she have anything better to do? Taryn: Oh, but it's also an article that will sell. Love life of one of the most famous people in the wizarding world? Think of all the people who follow celebrity lovelives here. Sure, it was probably spurred by a bit of annoyance at Hermione, but, hey, two birds with one stone? ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Thu Oct 9 01:29:22 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:29:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] question on flint in Priori Incantatem References: Message-ID: <00eb01c38e04$ca2bfe40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82560 kylie: Okay, I guess I'm just stupid...I keep seeing mention of James and Lily Potter's echoes appearing in the wrong order from Voldemort's want in the GoF chapter "Priori Incantatem". I was under the impression that Voldie killed James first, then moved on to Lily to attack Harry, so if the echoes from the wand were appearing in reverse order, isn't that correct? Please enlighten me...thanks. Taryn: It was only a flint in early editions, but it was corrected in later ones. So if yours has the correct order, then it's one of the corrected editions. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Thu Oct 9 01:50:38 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:50:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven References: Message-ID: <017701c38e08$1536c7a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82561 urghiggi: BUT I also subscribe to the "Harry lives" theory -- that JKR's long saga of character development would be pretty pointless if all that effort and anguish just led to Harry's physical death, even if it were a triumphant/sacrificial death. OTOH, I think she is very into the message that victory is hard, requiring teamwork and sacrifice, and that in the end even victory may be bittersweet (the Frodo phenomenon -- "I won, but I can't be happy..."). Ron's death, esp if he deliberately sacrifices himself, would be consistent with a "Harry wins but the price is huge" scenario. Taryn: Ah, but there's a huge difference with Frodo--he fails. In essence. Yes, the Ring was destroyed. Because Gollum grabbed it an fell into Mount Doom. Frodo failed and was consumed by the Ring. Tolkien himself says that Frodo failed his quest in his letters. Good reason not to be happy. No one seems to think there's a similar fate in store for Harry. Besides, what is so "pointless" about sacrificing yourself to save the rest of the world? There's not a lack of a lesson. That's a lesson all in itself. All victories of such magnitude come at a price. (Can't help but let my mind wander to the theological parallels. Or at least the same kind of act if not quite a parallel.) ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 02:49:24 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 02:49:24 -0000 Subject: Lavender and Parvati In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: > > Scoutmom writes: > > I searched the archives, but didn't much of anything that would help > me answer this: why are Lavender and Parvati in Gryffindor?? > > I've been wondering this a lot lately, actually, and haven't > really come up with anything. I believe that they're there for a > reason, and that their personalities ("like, omigod!") may just be a > smokescreen on JKR's part. > > Is there anything in canon that would confirm that they are > actually in the right house? I haven't see any myself. > > Right now, I can think only of one scene that indicates, why > Lavender is in Gryffindor. It's when Hagrid taught his class Blast > Ended Skrewts and they escaped. Most of the class ran away to hide > from the beasts, but Lavender helped trying to catch them. There is > also that scene, when Parvati defends Neville after the flying > lesson. But I don't think, that's really brave. It was nice, but not > especially brave. > > Kneazle now: > > Parvati and Lavender both joined the DA when it started. Seamus > didn't. I think that's pretty courageous for a pair of airheads. > > Kneazle To give credit where due, "the screaming veela, aka lauralexis" posted the original question, and Hickengruendler wrote the part starting "Right now..." My contribution isn't in this post. Ravenclaw Bookworm (aka scoutmom) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 03:22:36 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 03:22:36 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > > Harry is a half-blood. Tom Riddle says so, IIIRC Dumbledore agrees, and I think Hagrid says something similar too. So it would appear to be fairly certain. > > James Potter is *not* muggle-born. ISTR the Potter family being described as one of the old wizarding families. > > Therefore Lily *must* be muggle-born, or else HP wouldn't be a half-blood. > > Having said which, you've then got to wonder where Petunia Evans (as was) got to know quite so much about Azkaban and Dementors, etc. The Grangers don't seem to be so aware of the ins-and-outs of the wizarding world; I'm sure Hermione remarks on this at some point (?). --- That's why I've been theorizing that there are squibs/wizards somewhere in the Evans' background. Petunia's knowledge and the introduction of Mark Evans have bright flashing lights saying Big Hint. If the only info Harry has about his mother's background is from Hagrid or Tom Riddle, I don't think it is necessarily reliable or accurate. Hagrid is known to exagerate, and Tom has his own agenda. We know the Ministry doesn't keep track of squibs, so I can see a female squib a few generations back marrying and changing her name so she completely drops off the WW's radar screen. As far as most wizards are concerned, Lily comes from a line of muggles, but I bet Dumbledore knows more about it. I just skimmed the end of CoS and couldn't find anything that Dumbledore said about Harry's parents to add his stamp of authority one way or another. If anyone knows of another scene where he says something about Lily specifically, please point me in the right direction. Ravenclaw Bookworm (that's my story and I'm sticking to it - at least until knocked down by further revelations ) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 03:36:24 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 03:36:24 -0000 Subject: Wandless magic in Chapter One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "c_naegle" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hamlin_i" > wrote: > > Ian wrote: > > > > I always assumed the magic seen here was part of the protection > Harry > > is suppose to have at Privet Drive, i.e. Vernon was trying to hurt > > him (well actually chocking him), so the charm kicked in and he was > > forced to let go. > c_naegle wrote: > I seem to recall bits and pieces of wandless magic through out the > stories. Mostly around DD. Didn't he wave his hands and change the > school banners at the end of Book 1. Maybe that was the movie and > not in the canon. I seem to at least remember thinking about several > occasions where some others had done some wandless magic.- Bookworm: p 306 - "He clapped his hands. In an instant, the green hangings became scarlet and the silver became gold; the huge Slytherin serpent vanished and a towering Gryffindor lion took its place." Also, p24-25, Harry "fixed" his hair after a bad haircut, the revolting sweater shrank, and Harry found himself on the chimney of the school kitchen after being chased by Dudley's gang. Dumbledore can deliberately do wandless magic. Harry's only deliberate attempt was the 'lumos', but there is lots of evidence of his unconscious use of wandless magic (besides Aunt Marge the Human Balloon). Ravenclaw Bookworm From oiboyz at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 02:27:07 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 02:27:07 -0000 Subject: Harry - why he doesn't ask questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" wrote: > I've read a number of posts (and agree with them) that Harry doesnt > ask questions. He doesn't ask them when we wish he would, he doesn't > ask enough when he does ask, etc. Well, it just hit me that in PS/SS > it's stated: "Don't ask questions - that was the first rule for a > quiet life with the Dursleys." (p.20 US edition) > HedwigsTalons I think that's a very good point. Harry seems reticent and introverted, and both of those qualities probably have something to do with a nasty upbringing in which he was constantly being shushed. Fortunately he now has good friends who draw him out a bit. I thought, after reading the Pensieve chapter in OotP, that Harry must have his father's looks and his mother's personality. But now I think his compassion for people like Luna Lovegood (and even Snape when he's being picked on) has more to do with Harry having been picked on so much himself before he went to Hogwart's. From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 9 02:23:46 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:23:46 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031009151232.00a2ed90@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82566 At 16:10 8/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Fernando Henning writes (with Manya Elf's help) >Now, the precise role of Neville in the future books remains open to >speculation. But I must say that *I don't think Neville is the hero*. I would have to agree to a point here. Neville is adapting well as far as I can read. Personally I can see him as Harry's right hand man in upcoming battle(s), as is written in the OOTP MOM battle. Those two would make a formidable team, along with the others behind them. As far as being marked. Neville's main anger seems to be directed towards Bellatrix, not LV. But I may have to re read, I could be wrong. However, I am sure LV will have a right hand DE, not sure who yet though, but will be interesting if it turns out to be Bellatrix. Now, I can begin to imagine that scene. Tanya From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 05:13:03 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 05:13:03 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: <0876D9B2-F9E5-11D7-A21B-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82567 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: Golly wrote: Rita was not out to hurt people. She just didn't care. She was out to sell papers. Rita hasn't a sterling character, but she's not been proven to be deliberately malevolant either. Just selfish. Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: What about the article she wrote about Hermione? That was *definitely* deliberate malice, spurred on my Hermione's "cheek" at the Three Broomsticks. *tilts head* I've never really been able to figure out why a successful reporter would give a damn about what some little 14 yr. old girl said to her and go through all the trouble to write an insulting article (complete with quotes from interviews with the Slytherins) about her for *the* major newspaper of the WW. It's very odd, isn't it? Doesn't she have anything better to do? Anyway, even barring that, I still think she falls under the category of "horrible person," but perhaps I just have higher standards than you do. *shrugs* Laura (who thinks Rita's type is one of the worst kinds out there. *nods solemnly*) Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; Laura, just wondering, would you consider Rita and Umbridge basicly the same type of nasty person? Did Rita try to have dementors sent to take anyones soul? Did Rita make anyone write lines with a quill that cuts the hand and uses blood from said cut to write the lines? I would not like to be friends with someone like a Rita Skitter, but at least she did not PERSONALLY try to KILL anyone, just humiliate them. There is a difference between being "HORRIBLE" and UNKIND. But, perhaps I have met more people and understand there are many levels between nice and horrible. *shrugs to own self also* Fred (who thinks he has met Rita Skeeter before, but not sure. But would most definitely remember if he had ever ran into someone like Dolores Umbridge) From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 05:25:07 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 05:25:07 -0000 Subject: Questions on Lily's Birth In-Reply-To: <20031008153423.21704.qmail@web86004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sharada wrote: Sherry asks: Where exactly (canon here please) doesit say that Lily is a muggle or muggle born? I have read all 5 of the books and still don't know where it says that Lily is muggle born. Only that her parents say "look we have a witch in the family" and the belief sort of took off but where does it say it in sentence form that they are muggles? ------------------------------------------------------- Sharada: HI, I have been in this group for a week and I have been reading all the mails. I have a thought to add about Lily as to how we know whether she is a muggle born witch. We know from book five that Dumbledore tells Harry "Voldemort chose you, a half - muggle born just like him, to mark as his equal" James Potter ,(I don't recollect which book) has magical parents. And also the fact that Snape says to Lily in Book Five" I dont need help from Mudblood", which a term (bad) for Muggle for Witches and Wizards, thats why Lily's parents are indeed Muggles. -Sharada ______________________________________________________________________ Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; JKR said in an interview that Lily was muggle born and James was a pure blood. Hope that helps. Fred From ninnamie at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 05:32:09 2003 From: ninnamie at yahoo.com (ninnamie) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 05:32:09 -0000 Subject: Ted Tonks the Newscaster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiboyz" wrote: SNIP > Newscaster or not, I want to meet Ted Tonks-- this series needs a > Muggle-born who's involved in the magical world. We don't have one > yet, do we? SNIP Now me: We have plenty! Ted Tonks is a muggle-born wizard, but he's not a Muggle! He's just like Hermione, Dean, Lily, Justin F-F, and plenty of other characters we've encountered. But what we HAVEN'T seen are plain old Muggles who got involved in the magical world. We've heard about some, like Seamus's dad (who married a witch), and Hermione's parents (who have a witch as a daughter), but haven't really met any of them firsthand, and they haven't had any real involvement in the magical world. I agree, though, that I'd like to see them introduced a little more in 6 & 7. --ninnamie From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 9 06:01:19 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 06:01:19 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > I don't think you're being too logical, but I guess I just figured we > only saw [results of] spells from VM's wand *up to a point*. Isn't > it possible that the connection was simply broken before we saw this > last image you're asking about [a shattered Voldemort]? I mean, we > *know* VM performed many, many more spells than what we saw that > night; I just figured we only made it up to James' death before the > connection was broken. No, that curse was made right after James and Lily were killed. It should have shown right before Lily came out of the wand (in the newer editions - for those like me that have old editions, it would be right before James came out). Salit From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 9 06:45:51 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 06:45:51 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: <016501c38e06$5c190f40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > > Golly: > > Rita was not out to hurt people. She just didn't care. She was out > > to sell papers. Articles about Harry sells papers and since his real > > story was boring, she spiced it up. The real story was boring? Had she bothered to do some real research, she might have been able to write about the saving of the Sorcerers' Stone or about the basilisk and maybe even Tom Riddle (granted, saving Sirius Black was top secret). Instead she looked for dirt. The first thing we find about her, from her Quick Quotes Quill is that her goal as a journalist is blowing people's reputation - not accounting to the public what really happens in the world. > > There is no indication she's a horrible person. No? Fabricating the contents of an interview as she has done to Harry is not horrible? Publishing completely unfounded facts without research? Accepting without doubts the stories of students most hostile to the characters she is discussing? She presents Hagrid as a dangerous and out of control half giant, Hermione as a shameless flirt and Harry as a mad and violent boy. Neither have done anything to her to deserve these stories. > Oh, but it's also an article that will sell. Love life of one of the most famous people in the wizarding world? Responsible journalism is to write the story as close to the truth as possible. In our non-magical world there are also strict rules about what you can publish about minors - and for good reason. Had she been writing in some second rate paper it may have been acceptable. But the Daily Prophet is something like the NYTimes here. One would expect some level of responsibility on the part of the editors and its writers. Salit From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Oct 9 07:55:29 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 07:55:29 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Sirius apparate? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82572 thewierdone18 wrote: Damn, damn, damn!! Why have I been making it so difficult for myself when the obvious answer is right in front of me? Of course there's a charm on the place. They'd never be able to keep anyone in there otherwise. Some very high-grade wizards are locked up there. Sylvia (who is reluctant to admit that 12 year-old Tom came up with the same solution yesterday) From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Thu Oct 9 02:39:09 2003 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 02:39:09 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82573 > Kneasy wrote: > > > > Since the spell that marked Harry and blasted Voldy must have been > > powerful, I would have expected to see the results of it (at the > very > > least the shade of a shattered Voldemort) emerge from the wand. > > > > Or am I being too logical? > Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: Isn't it possible that the connection was simply broken before we saw this last image you're asking about [a shattered Voldemort]? I mean, we *know* VM performed many, many more spells than what we saw that night; I just figured we only made it up to James' death before the connection was broken. Now me (oiramertip): I think you're mistaken here because the echo of the spell that hit Harry and shattered VM would have come back between the old man and Harry's mother. Right? From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 9 05:51:23 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:51:23 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031009184214.00a2b9e0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82574 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote >That's why I've been theorizing that there are squibs/wizards >somewhere in the Evans' background. Petunia's knowledge and the >introduction of Mark Evans have bright flashing lights saying Big >Hint. I have been giving this a bit of thought. The problem hinges on the statements that Lily was muggle born. However, at what point would a squib or son/daughter of one be classified a muggle. What I mean, is if for instance, a squib found himself/herself in an orphanage, for sake of location and had no idea of their background. Not being on the WW radar, they would basically be untraceable. The other thing I cannot figure, is the story that Lily's parents were so proud of her. Now, in fact, if at least one of them was a squib, or descended from one, I can just imagine their pleasure in producing a magic child. Provided they knew of their family background a little, which is a different theory to above. Tanya From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Oct 9 06:47:53 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 06:47:53 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82575 Geoff: > > This reminds me of something that has puzzled me. It has been > suggested here and in many other posts that Voldemort acted rashly > by attacking Harry at the age of 15 months and not leaving him to grow > up and then decide which of the two boys represented the threat. > > A follow up to this is, why under those circumstances, did he wait > so long? Why was he not in there, firing from the hip, when Harry was > just a tiny child? >>> Casper: > I believe it relates to when V got the information on the prophecy > and when he knew who it may have been about. But we have to always > keep in mind that he only knew the first little bit. That was what > made him think he needed to go and kill Harry. Had he known the > entire thing he certainly would have put some more thought into it. > Yes, but the prophecy was made before Harry was born. DD refers to " a cold, wet night sixteen years ago..." Harry isn't yet sixteen at this point in OOTP so it was prior to his arrival. If the character who overheard Trewlany speaking to Dumbledore reported to Voldenort promptly, he knew about the existence of the prophecy in the middle of 1980. It still begs the question, why did he wait the best part of a year and a half before doing something? Geoff From sir_thames at yahoo.no Thu Oct 9 07:05:30 2003 From: sir_thames at yahoo.no (sir_thames) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 07:05:30 -0000 Subject: Why one belongs in Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiel2fisch" wrote: > I totally agree with you. > Look at all the adults (Molly, Arthur, Lupin, Bill or Charly, even > Sirius and James), did they do something that qualified them for > Gryffindor while they were at school? Not that we knew. > > IMO it's even not (only) the past that matters here. A 'real' > Gryffindor shows his courage in front of the problem. And the > Sorting Hat'd know. > > This old hat must surely have abilities every human resource manager > would be envious of... > > Sunnyi Or the hat is a fraud and only picks whatever house the student wants or in Harry's case; not want.... sir_thames From RACH911 at aol.com Thu Oct 9 07:40:52 2003 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 07:40:52 -0000 Subject: Neville's forgetfullness - work of a memory charm? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82577 Hi everyone. I recently read a theory that Nevilles persisent and chronic forgetfulness could be a result of a severe memory charm performed on him. Perhaps like Harry, he witnessed his parents "face- off" with the dark side (though the Longbottoms was Bellatrix, not Voldermort). A memory charm may very well have been performed on him as a baby and because he was so young the charm has had long lasting effects on his memory not just of the specified event. Rachel From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 9 12:02:40 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:02:40 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82578 Fred Waldrop wrote: > Laura, just wondering, would you consider Rita and Umbridge basicly the same type of nasty person? Did Rita try to have dementors sent to take anyones soul? Did Rita make anyone write lines with a quill that cuts the hand and uses blood from said cut to write the lines?I would not like to be friends with someone like a Rita Skitter, but at least she did not PERSONALLY try to KILL anyone, just humiliate them. There is a difference between being "HORRIBLE" and UNKIND. But, perhaps I have met more people and understand there are many levels between nice and horrible. *shrugs to own self also*> I don't know if it's a case of "knowing" more people, Fred. I think that it's entirely possible that Laura uses the word "horrible" in an entirely different way from the way you use. Laura may have different terms that she uses to describe Umbridge..words like "horrendously, villainously evil" perhaps ;p? Much like morality itself, it's a subjective judgement. The "many levels" you identified are one of my favourite things about the Pottersverse, mainly because the sophistication JKR employs to construct them. Rita *can* be horrible, and make us squirm, and the reader thinks "Ah! Rita is BAD." Then along comes Dolores Umbridge, another piece of work altogether, but yet, even beside her atrocities, it's still incredibly difficult to judge Rita "good". Harry himself(especially OoP Harry), as has been pointed out on list before, is a hero who deliberately rejects authority and rules, and yet is (eventually) praised for doing so. JKR's moral landscape mimics life, rather than the conventional black/white morality espoused by so much other, more conventional children's (and adult) literature. Kirstini From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Oct 9 12:54:53 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:54:53 -0000 Subject: 'Death Arch' was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One/MuggleWorld, Wizard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82579 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Kneasy wrote:--- > > >>Did they build Hogwarts? Or does it pre-date them? Can anybody > enlighten me? > > For their physical constructional needs, buildings, etc. I'd > classed them as glorified Borrowers - "That looks useful, we'll > borrow that." > > As to what makes a place magical, I reasoned that they do. To be > magical a place needs a certain concentration of wizards, spells, > magical objects and the like. What critical concentration is needed > to achieve 'lift off' is anyone's guess. > > But after reading Kirstini's post I'm interested in hearing what > other posters think the WW is and what it's limits are<<< > > (Ali wrote:) > I've never really thought about the WW as a physical space before, > although I agree that some physical parts are purely wizarding. But, > following OoP, I have really felt that the MoM was constructed > around the Chamber of Death. IMO, the arch and the veil predate the > MoM. I think that they are a link between our world and the next, > perhaps a place where it is easier to pass on quickly, I don't know. (snip) Carolyn: I've always been surprised at people's responses to this arch. To me, it has not come across as a place of execution, but very much a piece of theatre - albeit, v. serious theatre. All the tiered seating is obviously there for a lot of people to watch something important, but I had thought of it as either a triumphal procession in or out of the arch. Either people choosing thier moment to 'die'/go beyond (as Aragorn did), or possibly emerging from 'death' to announce or prophecy something, rather as in a Greek tragedy. The whispering that Harry and Luna heard sounded to me exactly like people 'back stage' watching what was going on out in the audience ! I like the idea that it is something powerfully ancient and magical that the whole of the MoM was built on top of. However, if we think out on this, it means that it is also somewhere beneath central London. Wonder if it is one of the nicked artefacts from the British Museum ! The location of the MoM seems to be not too far from the Museum (which is at the north end of Charing X Rd). From urghiggi at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 13:53:41 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:53:41 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82580 Yikes, Sunnyi, a bunch of the attributions below are not mine ... my origin= al post on this topic is at #82439.... I don't know who said a bunch of the st= uff below, but with only one exception (the part about 'die ron die'), t'wasn't= me... Urghiggi, chgo --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiel2fisch" wrote: > More thoughts and wishes about who will die or live: > > > urghiggi wrote: > > <> > >Yep. Toast. In a blaze of Gryffindor Bravery that does his Gran > > >proud. Neville Lives: 0% > > > IMO Neville teams up with Luna. Both of them become famous for the > discovery of some magical miracles (like fast-corned-heliopaths or > something), helping to win the war of the wars and finally receiving > the magic counterpart of the Nobel Price in Sweden. > > Neville and Luna survive: 88 % > > > urghiggi wrote: > > < tone > > < > << (and killing one is the death of both). JKR's already destroyed > one > > < that > > < change in > > < > > Gred and Forge Live: 100% > > I totally agree. They'll become the Bill Gates' of the WW, starting > their worldwide WWW-business and rake in so much money that the > Weasleys could easily afford to offer payment to their gnomes for > chopping off. > Harry, as the main stakeholder, never has to worry about an empty > Gringotts vault again. > (Just curious: Would you've invested?) > > > Harry? > > The Sergeant Majorette says > >>I'm 100% certainly JKR is not going to kill off > > the main character.>> > > [...], but the point made > > that there is no lesson if the hero dies gives me hope. > > > No further comment to that! > Harry lives: 200 % > > > >Hickengruendler: While I think another student will die, my money is > >on Ginny Weasley (sorry Melanie). I think Harry will fall in love > >with her and than lose her, too. > > > No way! At least one love in Harry's life should be stronger than > death AND overcome. Ginny seems to become self-conscious enough to > stand up to Harry. Is there a better couple? > > > Not really sure, who wrote this: > > <> > > Yeah. JKR wouldn't kill herself off. > > Very good point. > > > > > <> > > > Ron and Hermione IMO will surely survive; otherwise they cannot get > married in the end. (Ron will be the first Weasley having lots of > children AND being able to effort them because of Hermione achieving > the job of Hogwarts ever youngest Headmistress.) > > If you wonder why Hermione's going to marry Ron, here's my guess: > > After a glorious comeback of Victor Krum (glorious but short, given > to a last heroic fight over Karkarov and other foreign DE's ), > Hermione realises that Ron is / was ever her weakest point: no > scientifically based explanation or all the books in the world could > make her understand why she loves him. He's just the one. > > There's already an interesting development in Ron's character during > OOTP. As Malfoy indicates Harry is in some aspects only "second best > to Weasley". > This fact should be almost necessary to their friendship. > Harry wasn't at all pleased by Pettigrew's slimy adoration of James > and would surely not appreciate if Ron was always second best to him. > > In short, Ron is meant for Head Boy and Quidditch Captain in Book > VII (probability 100 %). > > > urghiggi wrote: > > > I keep hoping against hope that "die Ron die" is a red herring, > > > inserted to tweak JKR's fans who are "on" to the whole seer!Ron > > > phenomenon. > > > The seer scenes, especially during the O.W.L's, are IMO some of the > funniest passages in the whole story and I hope there'll be more > just for the fun (not for turning into reality!) *grim*, sorry: > *grin* > > > > > TJ:Dumbledore-- Dead, Dead, Dead. I'm 100% certain DD will not be > alive > > at the end of Book 7, having died heroically to save Harry/the > > world/whatever. > > > Yes, I think DD gets a bit tired. > > Dumbledore lives: 1% > > > Hagrid? > IMO it's going to be his brother Gwarp, rather than Hagrid, who > won't make it till the end (not before saving Hagrid's life or > convincing his giant friends of fighting against Voldemort, of > course). > I'm pretty sure that Madame Maxime hasn't played her whole role yet, > either. > > Hagrid lives: 95% > > > > TJ: < certainty. > > I could see him getting killed off.>> > > If he survived, he'd have to mellow out -- feh. I'd like to see > > him die heroically and become a Hogwarts ghost; maybe thereby > > releasing Sir Nicholas and becoming, reluctantly, the Gryffindor > > ghost! > > urghiggi wrote: > > < > < > > Snape's almost my favourite character (does this give away too > much?) and I want him to rise as one of the heroes. He's not evil - > just a little sarcastic. Deep in his heart he likes Harry since > sharing his childhood memories. I'm sure he and Harry will at least > respect each other before the end. > > But unfortunately, I think, Snape's supposed to die anyhow. He'll > finally get his beloved DADA job in Book VII and after the showdown > he and the Dark Arts probably just vanish. That makes Snape the last > DADA teacher ever. > > Snape lives: 0 % > But, please, show me how he could survive! > > > urghiggi wrote: > > << The exception is if he hooks up with Tonks or > > << somebody (and they live), then Lupin's survival sky rockets to > 50% > > > Lupin & Tonks, what a nice thought! Makes another couple! > > > > Calimora: > > << (My take on the mess. Alternitively you could flip a > > << random Potter book open to a random page and say that everybody > > << mentioned on the page dies. It'd probably be about as accurate.) > > > Qu? yo no tengo la culpa de verte caer... > > > >> ~Melanie > > And somebody in the blasted Weasley family has to die. LOL They > are far > too big. And it's not going to Percy because who would care. I > know I > personally would not. I'd be happy. > > > > > << Iggy McSnurd > << Honestly, if it's not Ron or, preferably, Percy... (who I think > will die > << shortly after coming to his senses about what's really important > in life) > << I think it would be Arthur... and he'd probably die protecting a > group of > > << the Muggles he loves so dearly. > > > As to Percy I agree with Iggy. > But I think Arthur's had his 'mortal-danger-part' already. All the > Weasley children (except Percy) suffered as if he had already died, > so it doesn't make sense to replay the scene. > Maybe the more distant Weasley's, like Bill or Charlie, are rather > dispensable to the plot and therefore in more danger to be killed. > > > > Sunnyi (attending her very first divination class with Florenz Tre- > own-ninny in a few minutes) From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 14:05:20 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:05:20 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031009184214.00a2b9e0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82581 > Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote > > >That's why I've been theorizing that there are squibs/wizards > >somewhere in the Evans' background. Petunia's knowledge and the > >introduction of Mark Evans have bright flashing lights saying Big > >Hint. > > My big problem with this theory is that it devalues JKR's whole message about it's the choices we make, not who we were born to that makes us. By putting squibs/wizards in Lily's background you are essentially muddying up that message because it would support pureblood claims that wizarding is in blood and not some talent that seems bestowed on people. Tanya Swaine wrote: > > The other thing I cannot figure, is the story that Lily's parents were so > proud of her. Now, in fact, if at least one of them was a squib, or > descended from one, I can just imagine their pleasure in producing a > magic child. Provided they knew of their family background a little, > which is a different theory to above. > > Tanya I believe this is simply a case of parents being proud of their children uncondtionally. I'm sure Hermiones muggle parents are very proud of her too. They may not entirely understand what she is doing but they are still proud of her accomplishments. Serena From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Oct 9 14:37:50 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:37:50 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82582 Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but I was wondering if we missed something important due to Hermione's uncharacteristic arrogance. Referring to the locked door in the Department of Mysteries, Luna says "You know what could be in there?" Hermione brushes this aside with the sotto voce comment to Neville "Something blibbering, no doubt" and we never get to hear what Luna thought could be behind the door. Later, things start happening so fast that no one ever gets to ask what she meant, supposing anyone was interested. I can't help feeling that they might have missed the chance of finding out something important. Sylvia (who really likes Luna and hopes she will be the one to put Harry together again) From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 14:50:36 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:50:36 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82583 > > Yes, but the prophecy was made before Harry was born. DD refers to " > a cold, wet night sixteen years ago..." Harry isn't yet sixteen at > this point in OOTP so it was prior to his arrival. If the character > who overheard Trewlany speaking to Dumbledore reported to Voldenort > promptly, he knew about the existence of the prophecy in the middle > of 1980. It still begs the question, why did he wait the best part of > a year and a half before doing something? > Geoff Well, remember Dumbledore also had heard the theory and depending, he may have been on the look out for any pregnant witches who would be due about that time and hide them from Voldemort. So the Potters may have been in hiding from Voldemort for awhile, and he only got his lucky break when they used the fidlius charm and made Peter their secret keeper. From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 15:28:38 2003 From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:28:38 -0000 Subject: Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82584 Hi All, --- In HPforGrownups Fernando wrote: > I think this text is *surprising*, as it suggests a > similitude between Harry and Neville. Remember, the > Sorting Hat took a good time before make Neville a > Gryffindor (SS/PS 07) It did with Seamus too, so Neville and Harry aren't alone in that. The quote's in message 67145: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67145 Cheers, Dumbledad. From tammy at mauswerks.net Thu Oct 9 15:34:36 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 11:34:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20031009184214.00a2b9e0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <3F8547CC.21794.D97C6B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 82585 > > Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote > > > > >That's why I've been theorizing that there are squibs/wizards > > >somewhere in the Evans' background. Petunia's knowledge and the > > >introduction of Mark Evans have bright flashing lights saying Big > > >Hint. > > > > Then, Serena Moonsilver replied > > My big problem with this theory is that it devalues JKR's whole > message about it's the choices we make, not who we were born to that > makes us. By putting squibs/wizards in Lily's background you are > essentially muddying up that message because it would support > pureblood claims that wizarding is in blood and not some talent that > seems bestowed on people. Now, I (Tammy) say But, Serena, how can a person CHOOSE to be magical? You are either born with the ability or you are not, and genetics weighs very heavily into the mix. I'm sure JKR didn't mean for her message about our choices showing what we are to include magical ability. Wizarding *IS* in the blood, or in the genes, at least. What the purebloods make of that is that they are BETTER than any other wizards with muggle blood. Which is, of course, pure hooey. But whether or not you're born to a wizard family or a muggle family, or whether or not you are born magical, doesn't have anything to do with choice. It's what you do WITH that ability that shows what you truly are. Therein lies JKR's message about choice. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 15:38:42 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:38:42 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but I was wondering if > we missed something important due to Hermione's uncharacteristic > arrogance. Referring to the locked door in the Department of > Mysteries, Luna says "You know what could be in there?" Hermione > brushes this aside with the sotto voce comment to Neville "Something > blibbering, no doubt" and we never get to hear what Luna thought > could be behind the door. Later, things start happening so fast that > no one ever gets to ask what she meant, supposing anyone was > interested. I can't help feeling that they might have missed the > chance of finding out something important. > Sylvia (who really likes Luna and hopes she will be the one to put > Harry together again) Sof: Dumbledore comments on this on pg. 843 US edition: "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries ," interrupted Dumbledore," that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight..." So, this must be the Room of Love that they couldn't enter. Makes sense to keep it locked. As Aphrodite once put in "Xena: Warrior Princess" 'don't play with the passion, that stuff's volatile!' From s_karmol at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 15:44:10 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:44:10 -0000 Subject: Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82587 > > About Neville's future role: > > I already mentioned that I think he will somehow give an important > information. > > I also can see Neville going several ways. I am pretty sure his magic > abilities will become better (as they already did in OOTP), now, that > he not only has a new wand, but also probably more self confidence > after the fight in the DoM. Than, he will either become one of > Harry's most loyal followers, who will fight with him till the end, > as it was heavily forshadowed in the scene of the DoM, or he will > continue to be sort of a loner and trie to get the Death Eaters, > driven mostly by revenge. In this case, I hope Harry helps him to > overcome his possible bitter feelings. Of course in OOTP, it seems > that Neville is far more able to deal with his difficult situation > than Harry is, but Neville soon needs to talk about his problems, or > otherwise he might explode. Eather way, I am sure he will become a > strong fighter for the good side. This might end in him dieing a > heroe's death, but I am still a strong supporter that it is him, who > will end up as a teacher (especially because JKR states that it won't > be Harry, Ron or Hermione), so maybe he will teach Herbology in the > end, or even DADA. > > Hickengruendler Stephanie Writes: I am soooo glad you brought up Neville having a new wand, Hinkengruendler! I really think that is a major piece of who Neville will become. In OotP Neville's grandmother explains how neville is a good boy, but will never be what his father was. And at that time, he was using his father's wand. I think it's like an energy thing...I mean someone tells you that you will never be as good who used to use that wand...the power of that wand will never be as strong for you. But, the wand is now broken...and with that maybe all of Neville's apprehensions of being as good as his father. There is nothing to live up to anymore, because he's got the wand that was meant for him. I think that's really important. I hope that makes sence. Thanks! Steph From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 9 15:48:46 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:48:46 -0000 Subject: Wandless magic ..... In-Reply-To: <3F849825.1040802@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > Ian wrote: > > > I always assumed the magic seen here was part of the protection > > > Harry is suppose to have at Privet Drive, i.e. Vernon was trying > > > to hurt him (well actually chocking him), so the charm kicked in > > > and he was forced to let go. > > Casper: > > I seem to recall bits and pieces of wandless magic through out the > > stories. Mostly around DD. Didn't he wave his hands and change the > > school banners at the end of Book 1. Maybe that was the movie and > > not in the canon. I seem to at least remember thinking about several > > occasions where some others had done some wandless magic.- > > > We can also count Sirius taking his animagi form in Azkaban. This making > animagi ability more special tha just changing into a rabbit. Unless > you think the MOM is so stupid as to let him have his wand while in > prison.. Considering they tend to BREAK wands of lawbreakers. (see > Hagrid and the threats to break Harry's wand for examples) > > Jazmyn I have begun to form a theory that several of these actions occur (after Harry's eleven that is) perhaps not when the wand is out and waved nor a spell spoken, but when the wand is near or on the person. My theory is that a wand _amplifies_ (with magical core) and helps as a focusing tool (in my mind, kind of like using ski poles for downhilling--you really don't need them but they help you feel lke you know what're doing and to balance or maybe a better analogy is when you learn to throw a baseball, you are taught to point your glove tip in the direction of your target you align your body and create a trained auto-focus for your control). So, things like the stinging (hex?) that Harry caused Vernon to feel (we never heard of Vernon not being able to touch Harry before he was eleven...think grabing hism by his hair and shoving in cupoard after zoo trip), Harry's being able to light his wand on the ground in the alleyway after the dementors made it go dark, the door to his _locked_ bedroom just opening of its own accord when the Advanced Guard comes in to Privet Dr, the "stinging hex" that Snape feels when Harry first combats his Legilimencing into his head---these are all things that happen when Harry has his wand *on* him or very near him (as well as, he is emotionally charged). I think his wand may be acting as an amplifier (as do his emotions) for the effectualizarion of magic. Even Dumbledore's 'wave of a finger' to do things could be simply drawing upon the wand that is in his aura and using the focus of his mind. Snape also does this (waving a hand at a cabinet to open it or a blackboard to reveal instructions) at times. So,I would also say animagi are in no need of a wand (it might help though) but they are not looking to amplify their magic and focus it upon something--they are looking to *convert* and *exert* a magic through themselves. This is probably a very rare ability (self- directing magic at one's own self) and seems to be somewhat genetically (just like magic) inheirited. Sirius the animagius is related to the only other kind of self-directed kind of magician-- Tonks the metamorphamagus. (Hmmm, and they are both related to the Weasleys and the Malfoys....makes you wonder who else may be able to do something like this....) We also see James the animagus with his son Harry who can grow his hair....the skill, whatever it is, is still not realized by Harry but the foreshadowing has been dropped and I'm positive it means something......just whether JKR will have time and chance in her seven-year series to work it in now seems the question. Either way, we know Harry was doing the Hair growing well before he ever had a wand. Just one of my theorys... Arya From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 15:53:58 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:53:58 -0000 Subject: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: <3F8547CC.21794.D97C6B@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" wrote: > > > Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote > > > > > > >That's why I've been theorizing that there are squibs/wizards > > > >somewhere in the Evans' background. Petunia's knowledge and the > > > >introduction of Mark Evans have bright flashing lights saying Big > > > >Hint. > > > > > > > Then, Serena Moonsilver replied > > > > My big problem with this theory is that it devalues JKR's whole > > message about it's the choices we make, not who we were born to that > > makes us. By putting squibs/wizards in Lily's background you are > > essentially muddying up that message because it would support > > pureblood claims that wizarding is in blood and not some talent that seems bestowed on people. > > Tammy wrote: > But, Serena, how can a person CHOOSE to be magical? You are either born with the ability > or you are not, and genetics weighs very heavily into the mix. I'm sure JKR didn't mean for her > message about our choices showing what we are to include magical ability. Wizarding *IS* in > the blood, or in the genes, at least. What the purebloods make of that is that they are > BETTER than any other wizards with muggle blood. Which is, of course, pure hooey. But > whether or not you're born to a wizard family or a muggle family, or whether or not you are born > magical, doesn't have anything to do with choice. It's what you do WITH that ability that > shows what you truly are. Therein lies JKR's message about choice. Bookworm: I think the choice in this case is Petunia denying her heritage. This choice may come back to haunt her as the war heats up. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 15:57:40 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:57:40 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sofdog_2000" wrote: > Sylvia wrote: > > Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but I was wondering if > > we missed something important due to Hermione's uncharacteristic > > arrogance. Referring to the locked door in the Department of > > Mysteries, Luna says "You know what could be in there?" Hermione > > brushes this aside with the sotto voce comment to > Neville "Something > > blibbering, no doubt" and we never get to hear what Luna thought > > could be behind the door. > Sylvia (who really likes Luna and hopes she will be the one to put > > Harry together again) > > Sof: > > Dumbledore comments on this on pg. 843 US edition: "There is a room > in the Department of Mysteries ," interrupted Dumbledore," that is > kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more > wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than > forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the > many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held > within that room that you possess in such quantities and which > Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius > tonight..." > > So, this must be the Room of Love that they couldn't enter. Makes > sense to keep it locked. As Aphrodite once put in "Xena: Warrior > Princess" 'don't play with the passion, that stuff's volatile!' There were a lot of doors there. Are Dumbledore and Luna talking about the same door?? Ravenclaw Bookworm From tminton at deckerjones.com Thu Oct 9 16:00:30 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:00:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry - why he doesn't ask questions Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE248ABC@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82591 HedwigsTalons said: If he's been trained since he was a one-year old to not ask questions, that would be a hard habit to break. No wonder he's not asking questions when we think he should!! He was never allowed to explore the natural curiosity that all people have! Now Tonya: YES YES YES!! I agree. I also remember as if it was yesterday at age 13 or 14 my mother told me over and over ASK MORE QUESTIONS. Now of course I am way over my question quota but when I was little I just sort of bumbled along assuming everything was going to be alright. The bliss of being young. TTFN, Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Oct 9 16:14:28 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 16:14:28 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82592 I did remember that DD talked about the locked door, but amid all that waffle, he never actually says what it contains. (I sometimes think it would help Harry considerably if Dumbledore was a little more straight-forward with him. Why not just tell him what was in there?) The general consensus seems to be that it contained Love butI should still have liked to know what Luna thought. I also wondered about Ravenclaw Bookworm's point that Luna and Dumbledore might not have been talking about the same locked door. Sylvia (who normally likes Hermione, but on this occasion would like to have thumped her) From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 18:00:14 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:00:14 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82594 In message # 82567, Fred Waldrop wrote: > but at least she did not PERSONALLY try to KILL anyone, just > humiliate them. There is a difference between being "HORRIBLE" and > UNKIND. But, perhaps I have met more people and understand there ...er...is it NECESSARY to shout? In message # 82571, Salit wrote: > The real story was boring? Had she bothered to do some real > research, she might have been able to write about the saving of the > Sorcerers' Stone or about the basilisk and maybe even Tom Riddle > (granted, saving Sirius Black was top secret). She wasn't about to write about narrowly averted disasters (unless they were averted by the Ministry). She wants to sell papers, and the atmosphere then is one where denial of any activity by LV is the party line. The idea is to titillate readers, not scare them silly. The flipside: didn't Neville say, when he expressed solidarity with Harry, that his grandmother had stopped taking The Daily Prophet? In most other households, any suggestion that LV was back would have been grounds to cancel their subscription. Or so the paper thought, anyway. With Fudge and the Ministry acknowledging, the party line has changed. Salit con't: > Instead she looked for dirt. The first thing we find about her, > from her Quick Quotes Quill is that her goal as a journalist is > blowing people's reputation - not accounting to the public what > really happens in the world. Of course she did. People love dirt, and watching other people fall from grace into it. It makes them feel so superior and sage. They eat it right up, just like children who have a chemical imbalance and who are found eating mud. Salit con't: > Responsible journalism is to write the story as close to the truth > as possible. In our non-magical world there are also strict rules > about what you can publish about minors - and for good reason. Had > she been writing in some second rate paper it may have been > acceptable. But the Daily Prophet is something like the NY Times > here. One would expect some level of responsibility on the part of > the editors and its writers. I think it's more like the New York Daily News, personally. I don't The WW *has* a NY Times. And Rita Skeeter is definitely a toe-rag (what precisely *is* a toe- rag, please? Is it like a snot-rag here in the U.S., a bit of grossly grubby rubbish?) of a journalist. Rita doesn't care how furthering of her greedy agenda affects anyone else. On the other hand, Umbridge actually believes in what she's doing. She believes she is the one who should be ordering things. Rita loves success in a material sense, while Dolores is after power. They each use the tools and opportunities at hand. They both seem to take pleasure in punishing people who get in the way of their agendas. I think a key point here is that Umbridge *believes*. While it makes her somewhat less vapid, it also makes her more dangerous, and less redeemable. One *can* appeal to Rita's self-interest, as Hermione did. And it's conceivable (has been suggested here on the list) that Rita might start to see that she could succeed and have some ethics, too, if she thought on the response to the article she wrote for The Quibbler. It took real trauma to put a spoke in Dolores' wheel, and there's no indication that it's going to stay there (although I agree that her political power has taken a beating; I wouldn't be surprised to see her getting her own dark mark next book). Sandy From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Thu Oct 9 18:05:06 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 Oct 2003 18:05:06 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1065722706.184.54582.w78@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82595 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Sirius Black's Death Poll (created by Sandy aka Msbeadsley): please express your opinion (personal preference, not prediction) in the debate by completing the sentence, "If I were J.K. Rowling, I would... o bring him back through the veil alive and unharmed, having never actually died at all. o rescue him retroactively through a magical device like the time-turner. o have him present somehow just long enough for Harry to say goodbye. o have him dead but still available to Harry through Sirius' gift, the magial mirror, or some other magical device. o have him dead but present in the narrative as a frequent topic of conversation and recollection, or appear in a Pensieve memory. o have a magical portrait of Sirius found at Grimmauld Place. o have him dead and Harry simply coming to terms with loss and grief. o have Harry try to bring him back from the land of the dead and succeed. o have Harry try to bring him back from the land of the dead and fail. o have a "raise the dead" spell revealed to Harry (along with a warning that it is very, very dark magic). o have Harry reunited with Sirius in the end of the story after his own death. o do something substantially different. (Please post your answer on HPFGU, as we could not think of any other possibilities and are curious). To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1143154 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 18:13:39 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:13:39 -0000 Subject: New Poll (Regarding Sirius Black) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82596 In my post #82192, I suggested to the administration (threatened to beg, actually) that a poll concerning Sirius Black's ultimate fate in the Potterverse be developed. Not only were they kind enough to agree, they let me help write it. (Gotta love those list elves! Kiss, kiss! ::hugs::) I am very happy to have been able to help, and I hope it suits the list membership. Please check it out and everybody vote. Thanks! Sandy From chrissilein at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 18:35:54 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:35:54 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82597 Hello, this is a question I really wonder. James and Lily, a happy couple? Since Goblet of Fire I got an impression of a Potter couple who could have been a little bit cooled of in love things. The scene when Harry?s parents shadows came out of Voldemorts wand seems to me they have been far away from each other. I got this impression a long time before the Order of Phoenix was released. Then I read the discription of the photo Moody showed Harry I was perplexed when I read it was Pettigrew who sat between Lily and James. Text: "His mother and father were beaming up at him, sitting on either side of a small, watery-eyed man ......" The Woes Of Mrs Weasley page 158, UK edition. We can well assume Harry`s parents had been very young when they got married and the couple on the pic were still very young people. We know they had been very much in love ?! But what is the reason for a young and loving couple don?t sitting together on a photography, arm in arm? Ok, maybe they were up with defeating Voldemort, but this really could have been much more reason for them staying officially together as a couple! Why got Remus in book 3 surprised when Harry told him that he heard James talking to Lily? "You heard James?" It?s a strange question, isn?t it? Could they have been anything wrong with our dreamcouple? Remember when Dumbledore told Harry the Mirror of Erised just shows the deepest desires of our hearts. Harry?s deepest longing was to be together with his parents, who seemed to live in harmony and love for each other. Dumbledore further told Harry that the mirror definetly do not show the reality, just our disires. Any ideas? From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Oct 9 19:04:34 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 19:04:34 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter - the background in the British Press (Longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" wrote: >> She wasn't about to write about narrowly averted disasters (unless > they were averted by the Ministry). She wants to sell papers, and the > atmosphere then is one where denial of any activity by LV is the > party line. The idea is to titillate readers, not scare them silly. > The flipside: didn't Neville say, when he expressed solidarity with > Harry, that his grandmother had stopped taking The Daily Prophet? In > most other households, any suggestion that LV was back would have > been grounds to cancel their subscription. Or so the paper thought, > anyway. With Fudge and the Ministry acknowledging, the party line has > changed. ...(Snip) >> Of course she did. People love dirt, and watching other people fall > from grace into it. It makes them feel so superior and sage. They eat > it right up, just like children who have a chemical imbalance and who > are found eating mud. > > Salit con't: > But the Daily Prophet is something like the NY Times > > here. One would expect some level of responsibility on the part of > > the editors and its writers. June: I live in the UK and may therefore have more experience of the UK press. I also suspect that JKR is using these aspects of her writing to "get back" at the press. She did have a privacy suit or something recently - a magazine printed a picture of her daughter - so I don't blame her in the least. IMHO the Daily Prophet is not the Times. It is the Daily Mirror or the Daily Mail (these are tabloid newspapers and therefore downmarket) the Mail is conservative aligned and the Mirror is largely pro-Tony Blair. The broadsheet press do not largely employ the likes of Rita Skeeters. > > I think it's more like the New York Daily News, personally. I don't > The WW *has* a NY Times. > > And Rita Skeeter is definitely a toe-rag (what precisely *is* a toe- > rag, please? Is it like a snot-rag here in the U.S., a bit of grossly > grubby rubbish?) June: OK hold your breath and grab your sick bag. Here is the definition directly from George Orwell "Down and Out in Paris and London" - toe rags were used by tramps to to bind their feet with in lieu of socks. Not nice. The British tabloid press is obsessed with celebrity and often seems to exist solely to create celibrity and then cynically tear them down if they do not play the game by the rules set by the press. This is precisely what happens to Harry. He is the darling of the press from the moment he becomes "the boy who lived". Until it ceases to become appropriate to regard him as such. The Daily Prophet, in common with the British Tabloid press is subject to certain pressures. I'll give an example and I believe it is on-topic in a roundabout way so bear with me watching elves - I have a point and it's relevant. British newspapers represent the views of their owners. These owners usually want something in return for pedalling a certain political ideology or viewpoint - and its usually a British title or similar (Conrad Black - a Canadian who owns the Daily Telegraph - became Lord Black as a grateful gift of Margaret Thatcher because he represented her views). This is the way that government can subtly (or not so subtly) exert pressure on the "free press". The former press secretary to Tony Blair, Alastair Campbell did in fact come from the tabloid press and was in a position to ring any Fleet Street (our term for the press) Editor and get a story removed, changed whatever. JKR is cleverly echoing this in her depiction of the way Harry is pilloried by the wizarding press. Fudge has obviously been leaning on the Editor of the DP. By and large, the broadsheets (the Times, the Guardian, the Independent and the Telegraph) are not so bothered about breaking the reputations of ordinary people. They know their readers are not idiots and will tend to make their own minds up. The tabloid newspapers are different. In 1992 the Sun claimed to have actually determined the outcome of the general election. The tabloids ruthlessly take up celebrities and just as ruthlessly drop them. There is an occupational hazard to this - UK libel laws - but libel is a very expensive casino to play in and only the very powerful and wealthy have this option at their disposal. I don't know whether the WW has a legal structure, but it is unlikely that Harry has this option! The spectacularly nasty bit to me is that no one is truly safe in the UK from tabloid treatment. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is enough - and this is precisely what happens to Harry. There are moves to introduce privacy laws but as yet, they have come to nothing. Many people absolutely believe everything that they read in these papers - and this is why their influence is so pernicious. It would be regarded as "out of order" to do these sort of things to a child, but then we don't really have a celebrity child equivalent apart from royalty - and sometimes the press have been seriously rebuked with regard to the Princes of Wales. In addition to this, leading columnists can wield considerable influence on public opinion. If JKR has done anything to open debate on this, I for one, am very glad. June From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 19:28:51 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 19:28:51 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > I did remember that DD talked about the locked door, but amid all > that waffle, he never actually says what it contains. (I sometimes > think it would help Harry considerably if Dumbledore was a little > more straight-forward with him. Why not just tell him what was in > there?) The general consensus seems to be that it contained Love butI > should still have liked to know what Luna thought. I also wondered > about Ravenclaw Bookworm's point that Luna and Dumbledore might not > have been talking about the same locked door. > Sylvia (who normally likes Hermione, but on this occasion would like > to have thumped her) Sof: It isn't spelled out in so many words. (What in these books is?) But I'm pretty comfortable inferring that the door they couldn't open is the door that they shouldn't have been able to open. Just throwin' in two cents. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 20:02:58 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:02:58 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" wrote: > Then I read the discription of the photo Moody showed Harry I > was perplexed when I read it was Pettigrew who sat between Lily > and James. Text: > "His mother and father were beaming up at him, sitting on either > side of a small, watery-eyed man ......" The Woes Of Mrs Weasley > page 158, UK edition. I think you are reading too much into this passage. I know a number of very happy couples who aren't "arm in arm" with each other ... except in private, when they are a bit more than "arm in arm." Part of what *I* think distinguishes these from other couples I know is confidence. Each is confident of his or her beloved's love, and thus, though they ENJOY each other's company, don't feel driven to weld themselves together in the company of others ... when they feel free to mingle, talk, etc., separately *OR* together. As for Lupin's response to Harry saying that he heard James' voice, I think that is no more than that James was Lupin's close friend, while Lily was, though on friendly terms, James' wife first and foremost, rather than Lupin's friend. Lily didn't not seriously enter into Lupin's life EXCEPT as James' enamorata, then wife. This all raises an interesting point, which is one of exegesis. It is all to easy for one to read things into a text, rather than simply reading out of the text what is there. I've seen a great deal of the former, round these parts, often leading to theories that are at odds with canon. JKR doesn't help matters by so consistently dropping little clues that cannot be fully appreciated except in retrospect, but that doesn't change my belief that some of us (perhaps all of us, at times, myself included) need to exercise a bit more circumspection when trying to analyze Potterian canon. It seems as if some readers are too tightly wound into the story, and their opinions of how it should develop, rather than treating it as I think it should be, which is as a very good story, to be read so that it unfolds itself, rather than being in any sense required to unfold according our personal expectations. Given JKR's ability to keep us all surprised, I think it best to let her write the end of this tale as she sees fit, rather than entrenching ourselves in opinions that may prove at odds with the tale itself. So, back to the point, if James and Lily are a happy couple ... or not ... let's allow JKR to tell us in the fullness of the tales time ... or not. If it matters she'll tell us, if not, she likely won't. But, it is her tale, after all. Richard From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 9 20:16:14 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:16:14 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" wrote: > In message # 82571, Salit wrote: > > The real story was boring? Had she bothered to do some real > > research, she might have been able to write about the saving of the > > Sorcerers' Stone or about the basilisk and maybe even Tom Riddle > > (granted, saving Sirius Black was top secret). > > She wasn't about to write about narrowly averted disasters (unless > they were averted by the Ministry). She wants to sell papers, and the > atmosphere then is one where denial of any activity by LV is the > party line. I was talking about Rita's behaviour in GoF, not OoP. Was there a ministry party line wrt Voldemort then? That was before his resurection, and initially she wrote positively about Harry, even if she lied a lot. > The flipside: didn't Neville say, when he expressed solidarity with > Harry, that his grandmother had stopped taking The Daily Prophet? But this was after Rita Skeeter stopped writing for the Daily Prophet. I was referring to her behaviour in GoF. > Of course she did. People love dirt, and watching other people fall > from grace into it. I am not arguing about that, only about her philosophy of only publishing dirt and half-truths (or outright lies). > I think it's more like the New York Daily News, personally. I don't > The WW *has* a NY Times. The Daily Prophet is the "official" news media there. I am not sure the NYTimes was a good example - maybe the Washington Post? Anyway, it is the only news source for most british wizards, as it seems. This lays a responsibility on it at least invest minimal effort to substantiate its stories. Instead it acts as a combination supermarket rag and a ministry mouthpiece. But then we see that the wizard administration functions much like the worst of totalitarian states (people thrown to jail or even executed without trial, or a mock trial if that; media censorship; people lose their jobs if they don't tow the party line; no control over the executive branch, etc.). I suppose that is just a manifestation of the same. > And Rita Skeeter is definitely a toe-rag [deleted]. > On the other hand, Umbridge > actually believes in what she's doing. She believes she is the one > who should be ordering things. I never tried to equate the two. I agree that Rita and Dolores are on completely different scales. Rita is just a disgusting excuse for a journalist. Dolores is a very frightening person - who will not shrink from anything - including torture and murder - to accomplish her ends. It will be interesting to see how their experience in OoP will affect their future behaviour. I have some hope that Rita will reform (though not much, frankly), but the best that can be expected for Umbridge is that she will be too traumatized to do much damage, as she is clearly incapable of doing good. Salit From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Thu Oct 9 20:27:52 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:27:52 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" wrote: > Hello, > > this is a question I really wonder. > > James and Lily, a happy couple? > Jeff: It's funny that you mentioned this, since I just brought it up 2 days ago on 2 other lists. Great minds think alike. :) Somehow, I don't know. The fact that James' death wasn't gone into great detail worried me from the start. I'd forgotten about the bit about the photo, but that does make sense, unless that Jo meant to hint that his purpose was to make problems for them? I did think it was intresting that after seeing James as a bully, and Lily not being fond of him, would actually marry him just a few short years later. I guess James could've made a big change, but from how Sirius acted, I dont know how true that is. It is an intresting though, and I'd entertain other theories. Jeff From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 20:41:38 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:41:38 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82603 In message # 82567, Fred Waldrop wrote: but at least she did not PERSONALLY try to KILL anyone, just humiliate them. There is a difference between being "HORRIBLE" and UNKIND. But, perhaps I have met more people and understand there are many levels between nice and horrible. In message 82594 "msbeadsley" ...er...is it NECESSARY to shout? Sandy _____________________________________________________________________ Hello all, Fred Waldrop again; I'm sorry if anyone misunderstood my putting emphasis on 4 words out of over the 120 words I wrote in responce to "Laura Ingalls Huntley , just stating how I felt, and still feel. I still stand by what I said, there are many levels between not nice and horrible. Fred From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 21:03:18 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:03:18 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82604 "Lady Of The Pensieve" Message 82597 wrote: > > > Then I read the discription of the photo Moody showed Harry I > > was perplexed when I read it was Pettigrew who sat between Lily > > and James. Text: > > "His mother and father were beaming up at him, sitting on either > > side of a small, watery-eyed man ......" The Woes Of Mrs Weasley > > page 158, UK edition. > "Richard" Message 82600 wrote: > > I think you are reading too much into this passage. I know a >number of very happy couples who aren't "arm in arm" with each >other ... except in private, "K": I will say that not all couples need to be seated by each other, "arm in arm", in photos. Being separated in a photo doesn't make a couple unhappy. Richard: > This all raises an interesting point, which is one of exegesis. >It is all to easy for one to read things into a text, rather than >simply reading out of the text what is there. I've seen a great >deal of the former, round these parts, often leading to theories >that are at odds with canon. JKR doesn't help matters by so >consistently dropping little clues that cannot be fully appreciated >except in retrospect, but that doesn't change my belief that some >of us (perhaps all of us, at times, myself included) need to >exercise a bit more circumspection when trying to analyze Potterian >canon. I will also agree that some folks (myself included) tend to look for hints in every little detail of the books. We can end up making a big deal out of nothing. Yet, JKR has dropped all these little hints. Should we not look for them? It is canon that Peter is sitting between James and Lily. It is canon that Harry could not understand how his parents could have ended up married. *Once or twice he even wondered whether James had forced her into it...* These could all be hints that maybe that marriage wasn't so 'lovey- dovey' after all. Then again, one could probably go back in the books and find canon supporting a couple in love with each other. One could also look at this scene and think how horrible it is that this little rat, sitting between Lily and James, betrayed this couple. Richard: > It seems as if some readers are too tightly wound into the story, >and their opinions of how it should develop, rather than treating >it as I think it should be, which is as a very good story, to be >read so that it unfolds itself, rather than being in any sense >required to unfold according our personal expectations. "K": I admit I would like the story to unfold in certain ways. I want to see certain things happen. However, that doesn't mean I can't accept what the author writes. I do accept this is her story. I want Dumbledore to live. I don't want Snape to be evil. Now if at the end of the series events happen that I don't like, then it could affect the way I look at the books. That is only natural. I don't expect JKR to change her story for any fan. Richard: >Given JKR's ability to keep us all surprised, I think it best to >let her write the end of this tale as she sees fit, rather than >entrenching ourselves in opinions that may prove at odds with the >tale itself. "K": I guess I don't see how looking for hints and asking questions keeps JKR from writing the tale as she sees fit. Richard > So, back to the point, if James and Lily are a happy couple ... or > not ... let's allow JKR to tell us in the fullness of the tales > time ... or not. If it matters she'll tell us, if not, she likely > won't. But, it is her tale, after all. "K" Ah, but couldn't it be important to the tale if James and Lily were not the happily married couple? Could JKR not have placed hints about this in the books? If we can't look at this particular scene and discuss it, then how can we look at any other scene and pick it apart. There is some canon to support this question. I do agree with you that some ideas seem to be very far from canon. Though I do try to only go by canon, I'm sure some folks think some of my theories are weird. But isn't that why were are here? Personally, I don't know what to think of the photo. But I am interested in what others think about it. "K" From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 21:06:39 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:06:39 -0000 Subject: "Severus" trivia Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82605 I larned in class the other day that there was a Roman governor of Britain by the name of Julius Severus who was in office around the year 135 CE, when he was sent to Judea by the emperor Hadrian to help put down the bar Kochba revolt. Just a bit of trivia...I have no idea if (1) this has been covered before or (2) JKR ever heard of this guy. But I have no doubt he had greasy hair and favored black... Laura, who is always pleased to find HP connections in unexpected places From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 9 21:19:28 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:19:28 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: > I'd forgotten about the bit about the > photo, but that does make sense, unless that Jo meant to hint that > his purpose was to make problems for them? I think that JKR's had several things in mind when she had Peter sit between James and Lily in the photo. One was the shock value to Harry - he sees the picture, listens to Moody's commentary in which every other person depicted has either been killed or became incapacitated; then he is confronted with his parents, seated alongside their betrayer as best friends. Followed immediately by the scene with Mrs. Weasley and the boggart. I don't think he'd have been as affected if Peter was not in the picture. It is also a subtle reminder to us that there are likely to be both losses and betrayal for the newly recreated OoP, and that the betrayer is likely to be someone noone suspects. For the readers this is also meant to convey how much Lily and James trusted Peter and viewed him as part of their family, moreso even than Lupin and Sirius. It is possible that this subtly indicates that while Sirius and James (seated side by side? don't have the book with me) were best friends, Lily probably was more friendly with Peter than with the other two. > I did think it was intresting that after seeing James as a bully, > and Lily not being fond of him, would actually marry him just a few > short years later. I guess James could've made a big change, but from > how Sirius acted, I dont know how true that is. We know that James changed more than Sirius because of the Shrieking Shack incident, when Sirius lured Snape to the shack where Lupin was hidden, and James risked his life to save him. Salit From stardust9121 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 21:41:40 2003 From: stardust9121 at yahoo.com (Emily) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:41:40 -0000 Subject: Marking as an Equal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82607 Hi everyone - longtime lurker, first time poster: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Yes, but the prophecy was made before Harry was born. DD refers to " > a cold, wet night sixteen years ago..." Harry isn't yet sixteen at > this point in OOTP so it was prior to his arrival. If the character > who overheard Trewlany speaking to Dumbledore reported to Voldenort > promptly, he knew about the existence of the prophecy in the middle > of 1980. It still begs the question, why did he wait the best part of > a year and a half before doing something? > Geoff I think, Geoff, that the reason Voldemort waited so long is that he simply didn't have the information he needed until then - specifically, he didn't have Pettigrew. In PoA, we're told that Voldemort came to the Potters' home *less than a week after* the Fidelius Charm had been performed. I assume that because of the prophecy, the Potters and the Longbottoms had already been put under various protections before then. Dumbledore, after all, already suspected that someone on their side had turned traitor. It's just that Pettigrew probably wasn't exactly in Dumbledore's inner circle, and his information wasn't quite useful enough (yet) to put Voldemort ahead of Dumbledore in the efforts to kill/protect the Potters. Dumbledore was, for the time being, still able to stay one step ahead. Then, in 1981, Dumbledore's spy tells him that Voldemort is now "after the Potters." I take this to mean that, yes, Voldemort had been after them for a year already, but finally thought he might have just gotten enough information to actually *get* to them. Dumbledore then suggests the Fidelius Charm - which becomes the final key in Voldemort's plans. Pettigrew is made Secret-Keeper, he immediately goes to Voldemort, and Voldemort *finally* - in October of '81 - has everything he needs to be able to kill the Potters. - Emily From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Oct 9 10:29:37 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 10:29:37 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82608 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fourjays22" wrote: Julie: > I always felt that what Dumbledore was referring to here as worse > than death was living under tyranny (ie the tyranny of Voldemort). > Voldemort's weakness is that he doesn't realize that people are > willing to die for their cause (ie, the cause of good, of keeping the > world (WW/MW) free from the likes of Voldemort, etc.). People are > willing to -- over and over again -- risk their lives, against > incredible odds, to fight the good fight. Because Voldemort doesn't > truly understand that his enemies fear living under his control more > than they fear death, he doesn't realize the lengths people are > willing to go to in order to fight him and prevent his return to > power. > > I don't have Book 5 with me, but I believe one of the portraits in > Dumbledore's office (the relative of Sirius) says at one point that > Slytherin's are brave, but if given the choice they will always save > their own skins first (I apologize if this is the wrong attribution). > When I read that, I immediately thought of Dumbledore's statement to > Voldemort -- those who are fighting the good fight WON'T save their > own skins first, precisely because there ARE fates worse than death. > Voldemort doesn't understand this. Geoff: Back in my message 77772, we were looking at a similar argument and part of what I wrote was: "It reminds me of a section in the Lord of the Rings - it's in the third volume somewhere. In it, Gandalf points out that Sauron (Another Dark Lord of course!) is looking for signs of dissent among the leaders of the Free Peoples to show that they are falling out over the Ring and he expects a new Lord to arise to challenge him. Gandalf remarks that the evil nature of Sauron cannot comprehend the possibility that his opponents may want to destroy the Ring rather than allow it to fall to evil use again." That is, as has been commented above, Voldemort's weakness. He is looking for signs of weakness and dissent. Unfortunately, he is seeing them because Fudge is ignoring the reports of Voldemort's "rebirth" in the hope that they will go away. By trying to cling on to his authority and power and by rubbishing what Dumbledore and Harry and all the Hogwarts group stand for, he is sending all the wrong signals. Perhaps, by the end of OOTP, Voldemort is just beginning to see that there /is/ a determined opposition who do know that they have to put themselves on the line to stop him. Harry has known this for a long time and I think that members of the DA are beginning to see this more deeply and realistically; it's no longer playing with spells in the Room of Requirement to hassle Umbridge - it's for real. In the real world, this has always happened. If you look at Resistance groups in Europe during WWII or at specifically targetted groups today, such as Christians in Indonesia, you can see the same phenomenon. As Julie said, people fighting the good fight to avoid a fate worse than death. Geoff From jamess at climax.co.uk Thu Oct 9 12:05:39 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:05:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530194C167@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 82609 Fernando Henning (with Manya Elf's help): Now, the precise role of Neville in the future books remains open to speculation. But I must say that *I don't think Neville is the hero*. First, because he is the typical antihero, as I stated above, and, second, because Dumbledore said the prophecy is about Harry (OoP 37), and Dumbledore is the alter ego of JK Rowling, acting and appearing as someone who knows all, who possesses full knowledge about any fact, about the past, the present and the future. It would be foul play to put lies in his lips to deceive the reader. James Adds: Actually I think JKR has been dropping some subtle hints as to a coming change in Neville. The DA scenes seem to show him starting to develop some real skill but the best is yet to come. Ponder the following bits of information and see how many of you come to the same conclusion I did. 1) Neville lacks confidence, but the DA scenes suggest he has some real ability. 2) The wand chooses the wizard, another wand will not work as well 3) To date, Neville has been using his fathers old wand. 4) Said wand is broken, presumably a trip to Olivanders will be happening before the new school year. Personally I think we will be seeing a VERY different Neville (with regard to his skill level) developing in book six. From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 13:53:44 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:53:44 -0000 Subject: Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82610 Fernando Henning (with Manya Elf's help) wrote: I have something to say about Neville Longbottom and his role in the Harry Potter series. I never paid any special attention to Neville until recently. In fact, my interest in Neville started when I read Chapter 37 of OoP, when Dumbledore is talking to Harry about the prophecy and says: "Sybill's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times. One, of course, was you. The other was Neville Longbottom." I, too, never paid a lot of attention to Neville's role in the story either, until the statement by Dumbledore that you cited and until reading some of the posts on this list about the prophecy. Those things spurred me to think about him more, and I've hit some questions that I can't answer conclusively. First, I wonder about the Sorting Hat's process for putting Neville in Gryffindor. On first reading PS/SS, I thought it was just that the hat was having a tough time deciding whether to put Neville *anywhere*. But with the additional information from OoP, I wonder if Neville and the Hat had an interaction similar to Harry's ? but I can't see the Hat seriously considering Neville for Ravenclaw or Slytherin. From the song in PS/SS (p. 118 US), it would seem through most of the series that Neville was better suited for Hufflepuff ("just and loyal"). But I think we're just beginning to see what the Hat saw in Neville ("daring, nerve, and chivalry"). Next, I have a theory (go easy on me, please! I'm still new at this!) that Neville might know about the prophecy. In posts 82276 and 82282, members discuss the action Dumbledore reasonably would have taken after hearing the prophecy to try to protect the Potters. Since at that point, Dumbledore didn't know whether the prophecy referred to the Potters or the Longbottoms, I think it is reasonable to assume he would have offered the same type of protection (acting as Secret-Keeper) to the Longbottoms. Of course, after the attack on Harry and Voldemort's defeat, the Longbottoms probably assumed (as did everyone else involved) that Harry was the subject of the prophecy. But I don't think it is too far-fetched to think that Neville's grandmother might have told Neville the whole story at some point. (Well, ok, it's starting to sound a little crazy to me, too.) She seems proud of the family's role and willing to discuss these issues with Neville, or at least where he can hear her talk about them (see p. 219 in OoP). Neville is certainly capable of keeping the secret ? after all, after five years at Hogwarts, no one knows about his parents. This theory might explain on an even deeper level why Neville was so insistent in the MoM fight that Harry hang on to the prophecy (p. 800, OoP). If he *doesn't* know about the prophecy, he's willing to undergo the Cruciatus Curse out of loyalty to his friend and to keep Voldemort from getting something he obviously wants (even if Neville can't understand why). But if he *does* know the prophecy, Neville understands the importance of keeping that prophecy away from Voldemort ? to protect the only person who can overcome Voldemort. Now, *that* would place Neville squarely in Gryffindor! From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Thu Oct 9 14:48:34 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:48:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: questions about HP (Evans?) References: Message-ID: <0b6701c38e74$7f654680$06ec87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 82611 "Phil Boswell" wrote: >> >> Having said which, you've then got to wonder where Petunia Evans > (as was) got to know quite so much about Azkaban and Dementors, etc. > The Grangers don't seem to be so aware of the ins-and-outs of the > wizarding world; I'm sure Hermione remarks on this at some point (?). > > --- > That's why I've been theorizing that there are squibs/wizards > somewhere in the Evans' background. Petunia's knowledge and the > introduction of Mark Evans have bright flashing lights saying Big > Hint. Marks Evans is unlikely to be a close relative, perhaps a second or third cousin. Otherwise the Dursley's wouldn't have been the only choice. If he's a distant relative that doesn't explain Petunia's knowledge. Magical Evanses would be too thinly scattered through the family tree for the family as a whole to have such knowledge. There is a very different group of possibilities which would also explain Petunia's knowledge. Suppose Petunia had a close encounter with the wizarding world when she was younger. Maybe marauders visited Lily one summer, but weren't very discreet. Petunia can be very nosy. Maybe death eaters attacked the Evans house because James was there, an encounter which could well leave Petunia terrified of magic and adequately informed about its darker side. Maybe, if Voldemort targeted the muggle relatives of wizards, Petunia had to spend a few months in protective custody, either at Hogwarts or the Ministry of Magic, so Voldemort couldn't get at Lily and James by threatening Petunia. There are several other options along this general line. I'm not aware of any firm canonical support for this possibility, other than Petunia's knowledge, but the same applies to the Evanses being a semimagical family. In the absence of further evidence I'd judge these two theories (Magic in the Family, and A Magical Encounter) equally likely. Does anyone else know any good evidence for either theory? -- Robert From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 9 15:28:41 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:28:41 -0000 Subject: Question about the Priori Incantatem sequence in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > I don't think you're being too logical, but I guess I just figured > we > > only saw [results of] spells from VM's wand *up to a point*. > Isn't > > it possible that the connection was simply broken before we saw > this > > last image you're asking about [a shattered Voldemort]? I mean, > we > > *know* VM performed many, many more spells than what we saw that > > night; I just figured we only made it up to James' death before > the > > connection was broken. > > No, that curse was made right after James and Lily were killed. It > should have shown right before Lily came out of the wand (in the > newer editions - for those like me that have old editions, it would > be right before James came out). > > Salit Whoops--my bad! You are so very right, Salit & Oiramertip. [How embarrassing.] I now prescribe to the view put forth by a couple of others that because this spell didn't work properly--or completely--it didn't "register" in the wand and so didn't show up in PI. Siriusly Snapey Susan, who one of these days will post something brilliant [ha] but sure hasn't managed it yet. From nianya_c at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 17:18:03 2003 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 17:18:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82613 I haven't seen comments on this so forgive me if it's been asked. Any thoughts on how Sirius got his wand back? I can't remember if he had a wand in GoF and we know he didn't have his wand in Azkaban since he said he had no hope of driving the dementors away without a wand. We know he had "a" wand in OotP. Thoughts: 1. If it's the same wand then MOM did not destroy it and I wonder how he got it back. 2. Did a friend give him a new/old wand after he escaped? 3. Any possibility that the wand was James or Lily's? 4. What happened to the wand when he fell behind the veil? I have a sneaking feeling that DD gave him the wand or left it where he could access it during their conversation in the tower at Hogwarts before the Time Turner scenes. And if this is true maybe DD believed/hoped there was a chance Sirius was innocent. Food for Thought Nianya From Yahtzee63 at aol.com Thu Oct 9 20:59:17 2003 From: Yahtzee63 at aol.com (Yahtzee63 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 16:59:17 -0400 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven Message-ID: <5A9C464E.4CD9E057.02A5D73B@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82614 I thought I'd weigh in with my own take on all of this: 1) Harry -- 95% chance of survival. I think there is a possibility that JKR would kill him off at the end, but a remote one. 2) Hermione -- 95% chance of survival. I think it very unlikely Hermione will die, but if there's some huge apocalyptic battle at the very end of the series, I wouldn't say it is impossible. 3) Ron -- 85% chance of survival. I think Ron is more likely to die than the other two members of the Trio, but I think it highly unlikely as well. I think the character's been slowly developed in ways that lean against his leaving the canvas suddenly; it feels to me like JKR has been preparing him for something besides a tragic fall. 4) Dumbledore -- 10% chance of survival. I would bet he will die at the end of Book 6. I think it is just possible he might survive and be removed from Hogwarts and the war some other way -- imprisonment or some such, meaning the Order would be trying to free him. But I think it most likely he will just die. 5) Snape -- 90% chance of survival. I'm really shocked that so many people think Snape's toast. I think Snape will come through. In some ways, having him die heroically would be a really cheap and easy way out -- Snape's intentions aren't really the question, are they? The greatness of the character is that he works so hard to do the right thing and yet is such an insufferable, petty, bitter bastard; you want to admire him, but you don't want to spend any time with him, and that's a wonderful contrast. Killing him off just removes the great dramatic tension of the character -- it doesn't feel like an ending, but like a copout. 6) Lupin -- 95% chance of survival. I think JKR will leave one Marauder alive. 7) Pettigrew -- 5% chance of survival. I don't think JKR will leave THIS Marauder alive. 8) Ginny -- 85% chance of survival. I think one Weasley will die, but only one, and my money's on one of the twins. Ginny will live to fight another day, and to snog with Harry. 9) Hagrid -- 50% chance of survival. This is the one I have the least hunch about. On the one hand, he was very much the younger Harry's guide and protector and buddy, so it could make a lot of sense for him to die in the coming-of-age story. However, it seems as though JKR is setting up something big with the giants, perhaps not to play out until the very end, and I think Hagrid would play an indispensible role in all of that. So, no idea about Hagrid. 10) Neville -- 25% chance of survival. I think the poor boy is doomed, doomed, doomed. 11) Luna -- 90% chance of survival. She doesn't seem important enough to kill, so unless she's a total redshirt character -- which I don't think is so -- Luna makes it. 12) Draco -- 60% chance of survival. I think he could get killed off a lot more easily than some of you do -- either through some redemptive act (though I hope not) or while fighting on the wrong side. I think it most likely Draco will end the series in much the same way as as Scooby-Doo villain, i.e., being dragged off to jail, snarling, "It would have worked if it weren't for those darn kids!" 13) Voldemort -- 0% chance of survival. "I have never died." Well, he'd better get ready. Yahtzee From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 21:12:13 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:12:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One/MuggleWorld, Wizard World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82615 "jwcpgh" wrote: > If Ffred is right, and I think he is, then magical ability is a sort > of genetic mutation that occurs in certain people. Gorda: I agree (by the way, what a great post Ffred's was!) >The ability lies in the capacity to tap a source of internal power or energy that is > not available to most people. Hence, the energy is not something > that exists in the physical world, accessible to anyone, the way > electromagnetic energy is. Instead, it inheres in the persons who > possess it, and they can choose to use it or not. (see note below) > I don't know about that. The mutant gene could open up an ability that all people have, but don't know how to use, or it could simply allow people to tap that magical energy outside (analogous to the Star Wars "Force", perhaps). We just don't know enough from canon to know what magic really is in the Potterverse. I was only offering a possible explanation for the phenomenon of wandless magic, particularly since in canon we only see wandless magic performed outside of magical surroundings and people . [side note: except for Dumbledore's clap of hands that changes the decorations at the end of PS/SS. I am excluding here also the Animagus transformation and the Apparating, because we have no clue as to how those things are accomplished (is there an incantation? do they have to simply concentrate? just because the text does not mention an incantation doesn't mean there isn't one, it could be something that is thought rather than said, or it could be that those who have mastered the spell don't need the incantation anymore.)] > There seem to be limits on what that power can do, but not many. > Magical power can't reverse death or allow people to travel at light > speed, for instance (or can it...?)-but it does allow for time > travel. We also know that the amounts of magical power/ability > differ from person to person in the WW-or else not everyone can > harness that power to the same degree. That's why, presumably, not > every magical child is invited to attend Hogwarts. And that would > make sense if the power were a genetic trait rather than something > that exists external to people. Yes, but it would also make sense if the genetic mutation simply affected the degree to which you can tap that external force. Again, we just don't know enough one way or the other. [snip] > > We know that having a few wizards around won't cause electronic > devices to fail, but we don't know what number is required. Or it > may be that it depends on how powerful the wizards and witches > present are. But can we call that phenomenon a "magical field"? > And if that's what it is, magical people gathered together in > numbers would have to be careful to limit the field. Otherwise, for > instance, the nearest muggle town to the QWC might have lost its > electricity, and that's the last thing the MoM would have wanted. > OK, you have a good point. Of course this also lies near the edges of what we know for sure. Was there a Muggle town close to the QWC campsite? we don't know. Do Muggle-repellent charms, such as the one placed on the QWC field, also act as a "magic containment field", so that the energy doesn't disturb electricity outside? we don't know, it could be. I know that JKR has worked out what magic can and can't do, but I wonder if she was worked it out to that degree of detail. > And what happens when the witch or wizard who casts a spell isn't > physically present any more-how long does the spell last? What if > the Order abandons Grimmauld Place and manage to move Kreacher > elsewhere? (Portraits don't count, imo, because they can't do > magic.) Would the protective charms stop working? If the Board of > Governors decided to move the school to a new site, would Hogwarts > suddenly become visible to muggles as it really is? Can spells be > cast in perpetuity? Well, we know that there are spells on Hogwarts that likely have been there for hundreds of years (for example, the spell that sealed the entrance(s) to the Chamber of Secrets). We also know of spells that have lasted decades (the one that makes 12 Grimmauld Place unplottable, was put there by Sirius's dad and persisted even after his and his wife's deaths). So, we can assume that spells can outlive their casters. How long they stay cast? maybe it depends on the skill of the wizard, maybe it is part of the spell itself, who knows. > > Note: > We don't know of anyone who does in fact choose not to use his/her > magical powers, but presumably people could do so. We also know > that in moments of high stress, magical powers can manifest > themselves involuntarily, at least in children. We haven't seen any > adult have that experience. mmmh, interesting. I wonder if as wizards get older and better trained in harnessing their powers, they become unable to use their power involuntarily... thanks for the discussion, it's great fun! Gorda From dfran at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 9 20:21:13 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:13 -0000 Subject: Neville's forgetfullness - work of a memory charm? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rach9112000" wrote: > Hi everyone. I recently read a theory that Nevilles persisent and > chronic forgetfulness could be a result of a severe memory charm > performed on him. Perhaps like Harry, he witnessed his parents "face- > off" with the dark side (though the Longbottoms was Bellatrix, not > Voldermort). A memory charm may very well have been performed on him > as a baby and because he was so young the charm has had long lasting > effects on his memory not just of the specified event. > Rachel There is something else we must also note about Neville. He is quiet and typically an introvert. He doesn't talk about his parents being in St. Mungo's. It is only by happenstance that Ron, Hermione, and Harry "ran into Neville visiting his parents at St. Mungo's. So, while there may well have been a memory charm used on him--or perhaps some sort of tragic event in his early life (which may have been witnessing the torturing of his parents, or may have been the explanation given him as to why his parents were in the hospital, or something else entirely different); Neville may know information and simply choose not to speak about it(Same way Harry was told not to bring up the subject of Neville's parents to him until Neville mentioned it). Yet another example of how Neville's knowledge is overlooked....is in GOF and how Harry and Hermione never thought of asking Neville to assist them in their quest for information during the second task. (the gillyweed) I don't imagine Neville's grandmother being overly tight-lipped about his fathers adventures, bravery, talent and what the OOP was actually doing during the "dark times". I do think Neville will play a role, perhaps even a major one. How major will depend on Harry and Co.'s views towards Neville changing. DeeDee From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Oct 9 22:28:54 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 22:28:54 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nianya_c" wrote: > I haven't seen comments on this so forgive me if it's been asked. > Any thoughts on how Sirius got his wand back? I can't remember if he > had a wand in GoF and we know he didn't have his wand in Azkaban > since he said he had no hope of driving the dementors away without a > wand. We know he had "a" wand in OotP. There is no canon to suggest Sirius had a wand in GoF. > Thoughts: > 1. If it's the same wand then MOM did not destroy it and I wonder > how he got it back. > > 2. Did a friend give him a new/old wand after he escaped? > > 3. Any possibility that the wand was James or Lily's? > > 4. What happened to the wand when he fell behind the veil? > > > I have a sneaking feeling that DD gave him the wand or left it where > he could access it during their conversation in the tower at > Hogwarts before the Time Turner scenes. And if this is true maybe DD > believed/hoped there was a chance Sirius was innocent. > > Food for Thought > Nianya I think this is just going to be one of those things that are never explained. Sirius needed to have a wand in OoP, so he's got one. I like to think that there are shady characters engaged in a thriving black market in Knockturn Alley, where any sort of magical item can be found, for a price. Perhaps Mundungus was assigned to go out and find one - he seems the kind of guy who has all sorts of questionable connections! Marianne From urghiggi at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 22:32:59 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 22:32:59 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82618 Sylvia wrote: > I did remember that DD talked about the locked door, but amid all > that waffle, he never actually says what it contains. (I sometimes > think it would help Harry considerably if Dumbledore was a little > more straight-forward with him. Why not just tell him what was in > there?) The general consensus seems to be that it contained Love butI > should still have liked to know what Luna thought. I also wondered > about Ravenclaw Bookworm's point that Luna and Dumbledore might not > have been talking about the same locked door. Urghiggi said: I don't know for sure what's in there. But I think I can guess what HERMIONE thought Luna was going to say. Remember ... Luna thinks Fudge is tres evil -- a notorious goblin killer -- and is also keeping an army of heliopaths somewhere at the MoM. Heliopaths -- fire spirits -- certainly could melt the knife Harry was trying to use to jimmy the door. I expect Hermione was waiting for Luna to come out again with the "heliopath hypothesis," which Hermione would naturally refer to as "something blibbering..." Pls note that I personally don't think it was heliopaths behind that door... though I would not at all be surprised if they do indeed turn out to be real, somehow or other. Urghiggi, Chgo From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 23:11:12 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 23:11:12 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82619 Now you must remember I am a firm believer in happy endings, so if I sound overly optimistic, bear with me. Harry - Alive. 100% certain. He is the subject of our tale. It would be discouraging to find that he has beaten the Dark Lord only to die and not see the WW out of danger and face the prospect of personal happiness. Hermione - Alive. 100% certain. Maybe not 100% healthy, but certainly alive. Too clever to kill. Ron - Alive. I know I'm being repetitive, but he and Hermione need to be together. All that tension between them needs to be resolved. Dumbledore - I think he will sacrifice himself for Harry and the WW. It should be a great death scene, perhaps the pivotal point for Harry destroying Voldemort. Hagrid - I'm of two minds here. Hate to see him go, but I think he just may bite the bullet. Ginny - Must live. Harry needs to be happy. I think she is his Lily. Neville - again, of two minds here. Much as I want to see him live, I think he may either die, or be severly incapacitated. Lupin - this is pure indulgence on my part, but since he is my favorite adult character, I would dearly love to see him live. Besides, we need one marauder left. Draco - very much alive. How tantalizing would it be for JKR to leave us with the possibility of a future series of stories with Draco as Harry's nemisis. I know she said she wouldn't write any more about these characters after book 7, but one can hope, can't they? Voldemort - 100% dead. All great fantasy saga's end with the death of the Dark Wizard. D From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Fri Oct 10 00:19:25 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:19:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82620 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nianya_c" > wrote: > > I haven't seen comments on this so forgive me if it's been asked. > > Any thoughts on how Sirius got his wand back? I can't remember if > he > > had a wand in GoF and we know he didn't have his wand in Azkaban > > since he said he had no hope of driving the dementors away without > a > > wand. We know he had "a" wand in OotP. > > There is no canon to suggest Sirius had a wand in GoF. > > > Thoughts: > > 1. If it's the same wand then MOM did not destroy it and I wonder > > how he got it back. > > > > 2. Did a friend give him a new/old wand after he escaped? > > > > 3. Any possibility that the wand was James or Lily's? > > > > 4. What happened to the wand when he fell behind the veil? > > > > > > I have a sneaking feeling that DD gave him the wand or left it > where > > he could access it during their conversation in the tower at > > Hogwarts before the Time Turner scenes. And if this is true maybe > DD > > believed/hoped there was a chance Sirius was innocent. > > > > Food for Thought > > Nianya > > I think this is just going to be one of those things that are never > explained. Sirius needed to have a wand in OoP, so he's got one. I > like to think that there are shady characters engaged in a thriving > black market in Knockturn Alley, where any sort of magical item can > be found, for a price. Perhaps Mundungus was assigned to go out and > find one - he seems the kind of guy who has all sorts of questionable > connections! > > Marianne You have me thinking of other ways Sirius can get a wand. What happened to his mothers wand? Now that she is dead where would her wand go? How about Sirius' brother? Since he is the last Black he could have plenty of wands just lying around. Neville's wand was his fathers. Any other opinions on what happens to the wand when a wizard dies? Lliannanshe From urghiggi at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 00:28:26 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:28:26 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book Seven In-Reply-To: <017701c38e08$1536c7a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82621 > urghiggi: > BUT I also subscribe to the "Harry lives" theory -- that JKR's long saga of > character development would be pretty pointless if all that effort and anguish > just led to Harry's physical death, even if it were a triumphant/sacrificial death. > OTOH, I think she is very into the message that victory is hard, requiring > teamwork and sacrifice, and that in the end even victory may be bittersweet > (the Frodo phenomenon -- "I won, but I can't be happy..."). Ron's death, esp if > he deliberately sacrifices himself, would be consistent with a "Harry wins but > the price is huge" scenario. > Taryn: > Ah, but there's a huge difference with Frodo--he fails. In essence. Yes, the Ring was destroyed. Because Gollum grabbed it an fell into Mount Doom. Frodo failed and was consumed by the Ring. Tolkien himself says that Frodo failed his quest in his letters. Good reason not to be happy. > > No one seems to think there's a similar fate in store for Harry. Besides, what is so "pointless" about sacrificing yourself to save the rest of the world? There's not a lack of a lesson. That's a lesson all in itself. All victories of such magnitude come at a price. (Can't help but let my mind wander to the theological parallels. Or at least the same kind of act if not quite a parallel.) > urghiggi again: Fair points, Taryn. (and you know I wrote a long brilliant response this a.m., which disappeared in cyberspace....) So now here's the digest version :-) 1. Re Harry's possible death (and theological parallels) -- to me it seems it all depends on whether JKR intends Harry as an overt Christ figure (in which case he must have a sacrificial death to save the Wiz World from LV) or an everyman on a spiritual quest (in which case he might also die, but less likely). In Christian theology the only reason Christ's death is perceived is triumphant is because of the validation of the resurrection; otherwise (as St. Paul says), the whole thing is merely foolish. Yet I can't see JKR raising Harry from the dead, given her comments re the finality of physical death -- so I think if she kills him, without physically resurrecting him, it's going to be hard to make a case that he's not just a naive, well-meaning, deluded guy slaughtered by a hard world (as some people view Christ). Harry's the point- of-view character, and we're clearly meant to identify with him. I think to many, it's going to feel like a cheat if the end result of his struggles is death--even if that death results in the defeat of LV. 2. Part of my comment was prompted by (sort of) marketing considerations. It's hard enough for a middle-aged adult (like me) to embrace the idea that HP could triumph through a sacrifical death, and that this would be a good ending for the series. It's an even harder sell for a juvenile audience. (Not impossible, but a much harder sell....) Now, the nature of JKR's target audience is the subject of intense debate, so who knows for sure where she's going? But if she is trying to write, at least in some measure, "edifying" fiction that inspires kids to fight the good fight ... death is a much harder payoff than life (notwithstanding all that "fate worse than death" talk). 3. Re Frodo & HP & bittersweetness -- yeah, in essence Frodo failed, though only through his heroic efforts was the final victory able to occur. But he also failed in that he was unable to forgive himself/receive the praise of his mentors, including Gandalf and Aragorn. Only by leaving Middle Earth was he able (presumably) to find healing/forgiveness. I could see something like that happening to HP (not the leaving the earth part, but the post-victory sadness) if the price of victory is perceived as TOO great for him, from a personal standpoint. (For instance, if Ron dies, Dumbledore dies, Lupin dies, Neville dies, Hogwarts in a shambles, etc etc etc.) I can see him unable to rejoice as a survivor, even if the Wiz World is thrilled with what he's done. OTOH -- that's again the voice of a middle-aged reader who understands Frodo a whole lot better at 45 than she did at 18. Tolkien (middle-aged Catholic don, postwar vet who'd seen many friends die, writing in the midst of another big war in which his son was fighting) probably had quite a different (and maybe more melancholy) mindset than JKR. So you may be right in contending that the melancholy victory model is not right for HP. I hope you ARE right in fact.... I'd love a happy ending, couples coupling, and all going off ever after like in a Jane Austen book.... ;-) urghiggi, Chgo From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Fri Oct 10 00:53:10 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:53:10 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Now you must remember I am a firm believer in happy endings, so if I > sound overly optimistic, bear with me. > > Harry - Alive. 100% certain. He is the subject of our tale. It > would be discouraging to find that he has beaten the Dark Lord only > to die and not see the WW out of danger and face the prospect of > personal happiness. > \SNIP of list of character resolutions > Voldemort - 100% dead. All great fantasy saga's end with the death > of the Dark Wizard. > > D Does anyone think that Peter will redeem himself? I think it may be possible and perhaps one of the happier aspects of the resolution of the matter. Of course should he redeem himself, he'll have to die in his efforts to act in a courageous and honorable way. Maybe I'm too optimistic... Jennifer From Cfitz812 at aol.com Fri Oct 10 01:03:50 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:03:50 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > > Does anyone think that Peter will redeem himself? I think it may be > possible and perhaps one of the happier aspects of the resolution of > the matter. Of course should he redeem himself, he'll have to die in > his efforts to act in a courageous and honorable way. Maybe I'm too > optimistic... > Jennifer Claire: I believe Peter will do something that, if not exactly redemption for himself, will go contrary to LV's wishes. After all, DD says in PoA that Harry has "sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt...When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them..." IMO, Peter is not evil, he's weak and a follower. So, I don't think you're too optimistic, Jennifer. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 9 20:27:47 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:27:47 -0000 Subject: Reading too much into... [WAS: James & Lilly Happy Couple?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > > I think you are reading too much into this passage. > This all raises an interesting point, which is one of exegesis. It > is all to easy for one to read things into a text, rather than simply > reading out of the text what is there. I've seen a great deal of the > former, round these parts, often leading to theories that are at odds > with canon. JKR doesn't help matters by so consistently dropping > little clues that cannot be fully appreciated except in retrospect, > but that doesn't change my belief that some of us (perhaps all of us, > at times, myself included) need to exercise a bit more circumspection > when trying to analyze Potterian canon. > > It seems as if some readers are too tightly wound into the story, and > their opinions of how it should develop, rather than treating it as I > think it should be, which is as a very good story, to be read so that > it unfolds itself, rather than being in any sense required to unfold > according our personal expectations. Given JKR's ability to keep us > all surprised, I think it best to let her write the end of this tale > as she sees fit, rather than entrenching ourselves in opinions that > may prove at odds with the tale itself. > > So, back to the point, if James and Lily are a happy couple ... or > not ... let's allow JKR to tell us in the fullness of the tales > time ... or not. If it matters she'll tell us, if not, she likely > won't. But, it is her tale, after all. Bravo!!!! How wonderfully said! Doubtless, you will take a lot of grief from people, saying "Why are you here, then, if you don't want to engage in the fun of speculation and theorizing?" But I think you are right. These are JKR's stories, and sometimes people need to lighten up a bit and let her story come to *its own* conclusions! Sometimes people seem to forget that JKR is a human being--an author, yes, and one who takes great care with her work--but a human being nonetheless, who probably does not labor over *every* single word and how fans might read them...and who probably [gasp!] makes an error or two in terms of consistency or logic in her magical world. I say, so what!? It's a fun story with delightful characters, and while I get a kick out of considering possibilities in the future or what various things might have meant, I do not think it makes sense to belabor **tiny** bits of word usage or **minutiae** in an effort to gain "evidence" for theories. It's a judgment call, of course, over how far is too far, but there are times it's pretty clear someone's really grasping at straws in the text. Note to the original James & Lily poster: I'm not saying YOU went ridiculously far in your argument, which is why I snipped out your post; I'm simply responding to Richard's general comments. Siriusly Snapey Susan From furkin1712 at aol.com Fri Oct 10 00:43:32 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:43:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MWPP in 4 Houses Message-ID: <155.25a8b63c.2cb75ab4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82625 > Hickengruendler: > > Still I think the Marauders were all in the same house. > > > > Calimora: > > So does JKR. She said so once. I think she also stuck Lily firmly > > into Gryffindor as well. > > > > Taryn: > > Lily, yes. That says nothing about MWPP. There's no reason they have to be in > > Gryffindor if Lily was. She wasn't, after all, part of the group. > > Why wouldn't James be in Gryffindor? Has anyone else caught on that he and Lily lived in Godric's Hollow, as in Godric Gryffindor? And that their son pulled the Sword of Gryffindor from the Sorting Hat? It's a topic of serious consideration that James was Gryffindor's heir, making Harry the heir. Which is why LV wanted James dead and not Lily, she was of no consequence. Slytherin wanted Gryffindor dead and that also explains why Harry was chosen over Neville, because Neville wasn't special, he was nearly a Squib. That's my two cents. Blue Eyes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Fri Oct 10 01:56:25 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:56:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One. Begonias. Message-ID: <137.26023dd3.2cb76bc9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82626 In a message dated 10/6/2003 6:20:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: This chapter starts with Harry hiding under a flowerbed, trying to hear the TV news without being seen. RSFJenny here: Sorry I'm late to the Ch 1 party, but before it ends I have to throw in this observation about the above scene. Anyone notice the flowers Harry was lying in? Begonias. It didn't mean anything to me when I read it, but a couple weeks later I was looking up flower meanings for fun (seeing which ones fit with the character JKR named her for, looking for hidden surprises in the future for small characters) when I noticed the meaning for begonias. Beware. Quite clever of JKR, if I do say so myself, seeing as what transpires in the chapter. Noone but a person well versed in flower meanings would have gotten that except in hindsight as I did. It's definitely going to make me notice her flower references more, curious to find if there will be more... ~*~RSFJenny~*~ "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters." - Sirius Black http://www.geocities.com/rsfjenny/HP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pbarhug at earthlink.net Fri Oct 10 02:28:11 2003 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:28:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? References: Message-ID: <005201c38ed6$28936640$3b9f8c45@DJZCB631> No: HPFGUIDX 82627 I wrote this earlier but was the victim of Yahoomort. Let's try it again... Salit wrote (re: Peter, Lily and the photo): For the readers this is also meant to convey how much Lily and James trusted Peter and viewed him as part of their family, moreso even than Lupin and Sirius. It is possible that this subtly indicates that while Sirius and James (seated side by side? don't have the book with me) were best friends, Lily probably was more friendly with Peter than with the other two. I think that this scene might well give us a hint about the quality of the relationship between Peter and James, Sirius and Remus. While Harry was disturbed by his father's arrogant and self-absorbed behavior as a teenager, I was revolted by Peter's slavish slavering over James and his antics. Remember in the scene by the lake when James is playing with the snitch how Peter is in obvious raptures of delight over James' skills? Sirius becomes irritated with Peter's sycophantic behavior. And later, Peter watches almost greedily as James bullies/fights with Snape. I think that Peter was a bit of an outlier in that social group, but I think he was kept around by James, who enjoyed Peter's hero worship. I think that, as a teenager, James's biggest weakness may have been his ego--his need for attention, to be the big guy. Even though he later matured out of some of his big-headedness, his loyalty to his old friend (and perhaps Peter's hero-worship still retained some appeal)led James to keep Peter around. In light of this scene by the lake, Sirius's comments in the Shrieking Shack about Peter's behavior make more sense. I had always wondered why, despite what seemed like Sirius's obvious dislike and mistrust of Peter--and Peter's obvious lack of equal magical prowess--Peter was part of that little social group. I do wonder how Lily felt about him, though. I suspect she had her doubts about him, as did Sirius. drpam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ktd7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 02:54:29 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:54:29 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > I did remember that DD talked about the locked door, but amid all > that waffle, he never actually says what it contains. (I sometimes > think it would help Harry considerably if Dumbledore was a little > more straight-forward with him. Why not just tell him what was in > there?) The general consensus seems to be that it contained Love butI > should still have liked to know what Luna thought. Karen says: Didn't Dumbledore actually use the word, "heart"? Here are some of the definitions of the word, heart, from the American Heritage Dictionary: *The seat of the intellect or imagination (Ravenclaw?) *Courage; resolution; fortitude (Gryffindor?) *The firmness of will or the callousness required to carry out an unpleasant task or responsibility (Slytherin?) *A person esteemed or admired as lovable, loyal, or courageous (Hufflepuff?) The Sorting Hat says that for Hogwarts to survive, the houses must be united. Is there something to the fact that the characteristics of each house can all be summed up with the same word? From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Oct 10 02:56:03 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:56:03 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Glide_an=92_Get_=91Em!_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82629 The sixth filk from the "Azkaboon" musical-in-progress Glide an' Get `Em! (PoA, Chap 20-21) To the tune of The Chase, from Lerner & Loewe's Brigadoon Hear a MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat228.html Dedicated to Pippin THE SCENE: The grounds of Hogwarts. Sirius, Hermione and HARRY are surrounded by a swarm of angry Dementors. Sirius & Hermione lose consciousness, leaving HARRY to face them alone. CHORUS OF DEMENTORS Harry Potter! Harry Potter! Glide an' get `em! Get 'em! Glide an' get em! Get 'em! Glide, dementors, they will not dismay again our fury! Glide an' get `em! Get 'em! Glide an' get `em! Get 'em! Glide, ye putrid ghouls, we have three souls to snatch away! HARRY (to himself): Expecto Patronum, concentrate with all your might upon it, laddie. Happy thoughts, we'll show them, live with Black if I can center on it,laddie! (The CHIEF DEMENTOR brushes away HARRY'S ineffective Patronus, and begins reaching for him) CHIEF DEMENTOR Your patron is too weak, these dead hands, my impure rot, you cannae fight it. Hear your ma's dying shrieks! Give up, lad, for your soul is ever ever mine! (The CHIEF DEMENTOR unveils itself, revealing its terrifying visage. It raises HARRY aloft, preparing to deliver the dreaded Kiss.) CHORUS OF DEMENTORS: Raise an' kiss `im! Kiss 'im! Raise an' kiss `im! Kiss 'im! Raise an' kiss that guy and satisfy our raving hunger! Raise an' kiss `im! Kiss 'im! Raise an' kiss `im! Kiss 'im! Kiss, ye Island fiend, and suck his supreme soul away! (HARRY faints. The Head Dementor is on the verge of administering the Kiss when it is driven back by an outburst of intense silvery light. It drops HARRY, and, with the other dementors, withdraws. The blinding light fills the entire screen, then very slowly fades to MADAM POMFREY'S infirmary. We discover HARRY & HERMIONE in adjoining hospital beds, gradually returning to full consciousness. DUMBLEDORE & POMPFREY are beside the bed, SNAPE & FUDGE are preparing to exit) FUDGE (to SNAPE, as discernable figures returns to the screen): Yours is an action deserving the Merlin First-Class Black and dementors attacked, but you saved those kids' ass. SNAPE: Confundus Charms against Harry made his young mind bent He'd been deceived to think that Black was quite innocent (Exit SNAPE & FUDGE) POMFREY: Rest, children, chomp chocolate, its proverbial high may you relish all it Black now soon must submit to the kiss that dementors shall hellishly spit. (HARRY & HERMIONE jump from their respective beds to protest to DUMBLEDORE) DUMBLEDORE Though it may be very true that Black is innocent To force others to see truth cannot be my intent .. (to HERMIONE) But he may live tomorrow If you have the time. Take that which you have borrowed Go back when it's Nine! HERMIONE & DUMBLEDORE Turn the Turner! Turn the Turner! Turn the Turner, and we yet may save two guiltless parties Turn the Turner! Turn the Turner! Come, leave Dumble now/ Go with Hermy now, we/you yet shall save the day! (HERMIONE throws the Time-Turner around HARRY'S confused neck ? the two vanish.) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Fri Oct 10 03:10:27 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:10:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One. Begonias. In-Reply-To: <137.26023dd3.2cb76bc9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82630 > RSFJenny here: > > Sorry I'm late to the Ch 1 party, but before it ends I have to throw in this > observation about the above scene. Anyone notice the flowers Harry was lying > in? Begonias. US ED OOP pg 1 ...he had kidden himself behind a large hydrangea bush... OOP pg 5 ...Harry fell forward over the hydrangea bush... OOP pg 10...reduced to squatting among dying begonias... Harry also "stepped into the shadow of a large Lilac tree" OOP pg 12 Magnolia, Petunia, Beginias, Hydrangeas, Wisteria (white flowers), Privet (white flowers), Lilac all mentioned in Chp 1. From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 06:06:17 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031010060617.47256.qmail@web60106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82631 Dumbledore's Army will turn out to be a loyal group of Hogwart's house elves. I suspect they may receive some sort of "uniform" (ie:clothes!) in recognition of their new status as (free) members of the school staff (ie: they are "asked" to stay/work/be paid vs. "enslavement"). Elves are powerfully magical, with a natural (wandless!) ability that even wizards are fearful of (see Malfoy, Sr.). Therefore, under the Direction of Dumbledore, they would be a formidable (and doubtless a defensive) weapon in the Order's arsenal. owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 07:10:31 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:10:31 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82632 In message # 82571, Salit wrote: > > > The real story was boring? Had she bothered to do some real > > > research, she might have been able to write about the saving of > > > the Sorcerers' Stone or about the basilisk and maybe even Tom > > > Riddle (granted, saving Sirius Black was top secret). In message #82594, I wrote: > > She wasn't about to write about narrowly averted disasters (unless > > they were averted by the Ministry). She wants to sell papers, and > > the atmosphere then is one where denial of any activity by LV is > > the party line. In message #82601, Salit wrote: > I was talking about Rita's behaviour in GoF, not OoP. Was there a > ministry party line wrt Voldemort then? That was before his > resurection, and initially she wrote positively about Harry, even > if she lied a lot. I understood that you were referring to Rita's behavior in GoF. (I used the term "party line" rhetorically, and my "then" refers to any time which is prior to the night Fudge saw Voldemort with his own two eyes.) The Ministry's reaction to the news of LV's return would have been the same regardless of when (in which book) it happened, wouldn't it? (The most accurate indicator of future behavior is past behavior.) Considering how in bed together the Ministry and the DP are in OoP, I can't imagine that they weren't pretty snuggly before that, so much so that Rita would have known that as far as Voldemort was concerned, "no news is good news." Anything Rita had written about the Stone or the Chamber (your for-instances of how she could have done some real journalism instead of chosing to trash Harry, Hermione, and Hagrid with half-truths and lies) would have had to include mention of Voldemort activity of one sort or another and therefore was something she couldn't use. (Of course, she didn't know that. It's likely she didn't even know about Harry's first and second year heroics at all. She didn't bother to check. And that means what you suggested made more sense than I got out of it the first time. I think.) Does that help? In message #82594, I wrote: > > The flipside: didn't Neville say, when he expressed solidarity > > with Harry, that his grandmother had stopped taking The Daily > > Prophet? In message #82601, Salit wrote: > But this was after Rita Skeeter stopped writing for the Daily > Prophet. I was referring to her behaviour in GoF. I don't think the way Rita or the DP determined what to print changed until the end of OoP (not even then: the decision to print the truth suddenly was pragmatic, not ethical; too many people knew to try to pretend any longer). The DP determines what to print/not to print by determining: will it sell papers; will subscribers be happy, or will they cancel their subscriptions? In message #82601, Salit wrote: > The Daily Prophet is the "official" news media there. I am not sure > the NY Times was a good example - maybe the Washington Post? > Anyway, it is the only news source for most British wizards, as it > seems. This lays a responsibility on it at least invest minimal > effort to substantiate its stories. Instead it acts as a > combination supermarket rag and a ministry mouthpiece. But then we > see that the wizard administration functions much like the worst of > totalitarian states I suspect that the DP's near-monopoly on print news is a big part of the reason why it *is* such a rag. No competition. The notion that being the only game in town increases their responsibility to do their job well is kinda idealistic, IMO. (Although in terms of a public trust, this is true, I don't really see it in either the WW or the RW press.) Even without the comparison with the WW government. In message #82594, I wrote: > > And Rita Skeeter is definitely a toe-rag [deleted]. > > On the other hand, Umbridge actually believes in what she's > > doing. She believes she is the one who should be ordering things. In message #82601, Salit wrote: > I never tried to equate the two. I agree that Rita and Dolores are > on completely different scales. Rita is just a disgusting excuse > for a journalist. Dolores is a very frightening person - who will > not shrink from anything - including torture and murder - to > accomplish her ends. I don't think I was suggesting you were equating the two; I was just measuring them using my own yardstick (meterstick)? Sandy, who would like to thank June for her excellent post on Fleet Street, but who still felt bound to respond to this without going into that...look at the time...ohmigod...zzzzzz From sylviablundell at aol.com Fri Oct 10 07:36:19 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:36:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82633 Lliannanshe wrote: >Any opinions on what happens to the wand when a wizard dies? I would have expected it to be buried with him, like a Viking's gear, but this is only an opinion. I can't support it from canon. Sylvia From jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com Fri Oct 10 09:46:12 2003 From: jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com (lynnfaragher78) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:46:12 -0000 Subject: McGonagal, Harry and the Ginger Newts....was Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82634 The reason why McGonagal was telling Harry to eat Ginger Newt was because they had the calming potion in them...Harry was very worked up about Umbridge...... From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Oct 10 11:11:07 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:11:07 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: Jeff: > > I'd forgotten about the bit about the > > photo, but that does make sense, unless that Jo meant to hint that > > his purpose was to make problems for them? > slgazit: > I think that JKR's had several things in mind when she had Peter sit > between James and Lily in the photo. One was the shock value to > Harry - he sees the picture, listens to Moody's commentary in which > every other person depicted has either been killed or became > incapacitated; then he is confronted with his parents, seated > alongside their betrayer as best friends. Followed immediately by the > scene with Mrs. Weasley and the boggart. I don't think he'd have been > as affected if Peter was not in the picture. It is also a subtle > reminder to us that there are likely to be both losses and betrayal > for the newly recreated OoP, and that the betrayer is likely to be > someone noone suspects. > Jeff: Agreed. It's almost like a Last Supper type of photo. The betrayer sitting amongst them, in friendship with the others totally unaware of the dire fate that awaits them all. Who will be the Judas for this version? I'd vote for Tonks. I don't really know why, but she tends to stick out like Peter does, imho. I don't mean to offend her fans, as I *do* like her, but I just have this feeling, and I could be very wrong. slgazit: > For the readers this is also meant to convey how much Lily and James > trusted Peter and viewed him as part of their family, moreso even > than Lupin and Sirius. It is possible that this subtly indicates that > while Sirius and James (seated side by side? don't have the book with > me) were best friends, Lily probably was more friendly with Peter > than with the other two. > Jeff: That could be. The prior history of the group is too scarce to make an eductated guess, but this theory makes sense. It looks like Lily hated James at first and more than likely would want to stick her nose into his affairs when she felt he was going too far. Not meant as an insult, just an observation. JEff: > > I did think it was intresting that after seeing James as a > bully, > > and Lily not being fond of him, would actually marry him just a few > > short years later. I guess James could've made a big change, but > from > > how Sirius acted, I dont know how true that is. > slgazit: > We know that James changed more than Sirius because of the Shrieking > Shack incident, when Sirius lured Snape to the shack where Lupin was > hidden, and James risked his life to save him. > Jeff: Ah, but did he do it on his own, of because Lily made him? If they were falling in love at this point, James could've done it out of love for her, not for anything else. If you think about it, he went against his best friend to save a common enemy. Only a whipped male would dare go against his best friend. :) I've seen this in too many married freinds, and it's just part of love, I guess. Jeff From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 12:10:40 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:10:40 -0000 Subject: Reason LV choose Harry (was Re: MWPP in 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: <155.25a8b63c.2cb75ab4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, furkin1712 at a... wrote: that also explains why Harry was chosen > over Neville, because Neville wasn't special, he was nearly a Squib. > > That's my two cents. > Blue Eyes > This is in an interesting point. There has been some debate as to why LV choose Harry over Neville. If Harry was the heir of Gryffindor, it would make him the move obvious choice. Serena From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 12:15:19 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:15:19 -0000 Subject: Coifs and Alignment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82637 Maybe it's just me but I'm beginning to notice a connection between hair and whether a character is good or evil. In general characters with messy or unkempt hair are good (Harry, Hermione, Luna, Hagrid). And characters with more managed hair are more questionable if not evil (Lockhart, Umbridge, all the Malfoys). Don't have access to cannon to go through and check this right nowbut I wanted to see what other people thought. Serena From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 12:45:02 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (kozmoz4) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:45:02 -0000 Subject: Hint in Cos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82638 > I have a question. Any possible idea what this could mean? > "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw > Riddle's diary away...And while Harry was sure he had never heard the > name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, > almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, > and had half-forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends > before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that." CoS 234 Well we all know that Harry and Voldemort are connected. Probably when V. transferred his powers to Harry, since the powers were Tom Riddle's the Tom in Harry somehow feels a connection to the diary. Another example to Tom in HArry is the voice that said "Do it now!" when Harry had his wand on Sirius right before Lupin appeared in the Shreaking Shack. I absolutely adore that voice, makes you wonder what else it has told Harry to do. It is very schitzophraniac. From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 12:47:23 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:47:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves In-Reply-To: <20031010060617.47256.qmail@web60106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82639 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > Dumbledore's Army will turn out to be a loyal group of Hogwart's house elves. I suspect they may receive some sort of "uniform" (ie:clothes!) in recognition of their new status as (free) members of the school staff Hmmm...I think it's ironic that Fudge and Umbridge are running around Hogwarts searching for Dumbledore's Army. At first, it seems like the ravings of a paranoid mind but, actually, they are quite right. They're simply barking up the wrong tree. What is the Order of the Phoenix, if not Dumbledore's Army? :: Entropy :: (who believes that Junius Ponds {NY} would make a great wizard's name!) From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 13:05:05 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:05:05 -0000 Subject: discussion list for kids? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82640 A very bright 9 year old friend of mine who is a huge HP fan would like to find a discussion group like this one that is intended for kids. Does anyone have any recommendations? The only one that looked promising after a brief search was Snitchseeker, but it looks like it's pretty complicated to post to. Thanks- Laura From patnkatng at cox.net Fri Oct 10 13:22:05 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:22:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One. Flowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: > US ED > OOP pg 1 ...he had kidden himself behind a large hydrangea bush... > OOP pg 5 ...Harry fell forward over the hydrangea bush... > OOP pg 10...reduced to squatting among dying begonias... > > Harry also "stepped into the shadow of a large Lilac tree" OOP pg 12 > > > Magnolia, Petunia, Beginias, Hydrangeas, Wisteria (white flowers), > Privet (white flowers), Lilac all mentioned in Chp 1. Magnolia: "Love of Nature" Petunia: "Humility" "Am Not Proud" Begonia: "Deformed" Hydrangea: "Heartlessness" "A Boaster" Wisteria (white): "Extreme Devotion" Privet: "Mildness" "Prohibition" Lilac: "First Love" White lilac can also represent "Youth, Innocence, or Candor." All definitions, except for Wisteria, were taken from In the Garden (http://www.cybercom.net/~klb/flowers.html) Definition for Wisteria from Flower Language (http://mimi.essortment.com/flowerslanguag_rvep.htm) I did find the "beware" definition for Begonia at Pioneer Thinking http://www.pioneerthinking.com/flowerlanguage.html I also checked the site, Longbourn (a Jane Austin site) http://www.angelfire.com/de2/longbourn/referenceflowers.html to see if the definitions differed in any way, but most of the above flowers weren't mentioned. I can't see that all of the flowers' meanings could apply to the story. One never knows, though. Katrina who really should move away from the computer and do something "useful" this morning. My own bumper sticker: "Every Mother is a Working Mother" From rredordead at aol.com Fri Oct 10 14:34:06 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:34:06 -0000 Subject: To Jeff (Was: Lily and James, a hpappy couple?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82642 Jeff said: Ah, but did he do it on his own, of because Lily made him? If they were falling in love at this point, James could've done it out of love for her, not for anything else. If you think about it, he went against his best friend to save a common enemy. Only a whipped male would dare go against his best friend. :) I've seen this in too many married freinds, and it's just part of love, I guess. No me: First I would like to say this post is not about HP but a direct response to the content of the above comment. I'm very disturbed by your use of the term "Only a whipped male would dare go against his best friend" I would like to know what exactly you mean by that! In any friendship, be it between the same sex like James and Sirius or opposing sexes like James and Lily, that union is defined by both parties making sacrifices for each other, respecting each others opinion (if not agreeing with them), doing what the other asks, taking advice, disagreeing, debating, loving etc, etc, etc you get the point. Why, if James does something Sirius asks of him (as I'm sure he did many times) is that any different from doing something Lily asks of him? He obviously loved them both as best friends and in Lily's case also a lover. Why should a man doing what a woman asks of him somehow defined, in you opinion, as `whipped'! I enjoy this discussion site immensely because all those who contribute are intelligent and respectful in voicing their opinions. I ask that you please do the same. I will entertain a single response if necessary but then we let us drop the subject, as it is not HP related. Mandy. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 10 14:43:05 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:43:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82643 > > --- "nianya_c" wrote: > > > Any thoughts on how Sirius got his wand back? I can't remember > if he had a wand in GoF and we know he didn't have his wand > > > in Azkaban since he said he had no hope of driving the > > > dementors away without a wand. We know he had "a" wand in OotP. > > There is no canon to suggest Sirius had a wand in GoF. > > > > > Food for Thought > > > Nianya I think Sirius had a wand in GOF. He spoke to Harry from a Wizard's fireplace - and wizards don't wait 15 mins before their fire is weel enough lit. They light a fire with a wand. If Sirius didn't have a wand by then, he would have asked Harry to bring one to the cave, not just a "doggy-bag" of food (excuse the pun, Padfoot). So when/how did he get the wand? Maybe from the same place he got- - a Tropical Bird to deliver mail - a handy penknife for picking locks (Harry's Christmas gift) He was looking so well and clean cut in the fireplace that Harry thought he looked 20 years younger. Sirius must have been with friends after POA that helped him a lot. So where was he? Maybe the identity of the TROPICAL BIRD would help. Harry said it was so big he was worried it wouldn't fit in his window. Hedwig, the Snowy Owl, would have a wingspan of 4.5 feet, so this bird has a bigger wingspan and is colourful. any ideas? ~aussie~ From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 10 15:04:23 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:04:23 -0000 Subject: Neville's forgetfullness - work of a memory charm? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82644 --- "deedeee88" wrote: > --- "rach9112000" wrote: > > Hi everyone. I recently read a theory that Nevilles persisent and > > chronic forgetfulness could be a result of a severe memory charm > > performed on him. Perhaps like Harry, he witnessed his > > parents "face-off" with the dark side Voldermort). A (though > > the Longbottoms was Bellatrix, not memory charm may very well > > have been performed on him as a baby and because he was so > > young the charm has had long lasting effects on his memory > > > not just of the specified event. > > Rachel > > > There is something else we must also note about Neville. He is > quiet and typically an introvert > So, while there may well have been a memory charm used on him--or > perhaps some sort of tragic event in his early life (which may have > been witnessing the torturing of his parents, or may have been the > explanation given him as to why his parents were in the hospital, > or something else entirely different); > I don't imagine Neville's grandmother being overly tight-lipped > about his fathers adventures, bravery, talent and what the OOP was > actually doing during the "dark times". > DeeDee So was any memory charm to protect the youngster, or to hide other facts about the wizard who "did-a-Gilderoy" on him. DE attack in packs ... what if Snape was there during the Longbottom's attack? That he is hiding how loyal he is to LV. That would explain Neville/Snape dislike of each other. ~aussie~ From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Oct 10 15:28:47 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:28:47 -0000 Subject: To Jeff (Was: Lily and James, a hpappy couple?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Jeff said: > Ah, but did he do it on his own, of because Lily made him? If they > were falling in love at this point, James could've done it out of > love for her, not for anything else. If you think about it, he went > against his best friend to save a common enemy. Only a whipped male > would dare go against his best friend. :) I've seen this in too many > married freinds, and it's just part of love, I guess. > > No me: > First I would like to say this post is not about HP but a direct > response to the content of the above comment. > > I'm very disturbed by your use of the term "Only a whipped male would > dare go against his best friend" I would like to know what exactly > you mean by that! > Jeff: If you took the time to read, you'd see that my comment was me being cheeky. :) But it does happen where a man thinks with something other than his brain, and does things he'd never do otherwise in order to gain the "prize" the other brain wants. This could be what James was doing. Its normal behavoir and has happened for all of time as much as we can tell. > In any friendship, be it between the same sex like James and Sirius > or opposing sexes like James and Lily, that union is defined by both > parties making sacrifices for each other, respecting each others > opinion (if not agreeing with them), doing what the other asks, > taking advice, disagreeing, debating, loving etc, etc, etc you get > the point. > Jeff: Agreed, but why would James suddenly want to save his mortal enemy? And at the risk of his life, for that matter? I don't think Sirius asked him to do such a thing, but he would, and because of a love he had for him. However, the dynamics of a non-sexual vs a sexual relationship are different. Sometimes you'd do more for your kids than you might for your spouse and certainly more than you'd do for you're best friend. You can divorce your spouse, but not your kids or best friend. > Why, if James does something Sirius asks of him (as I'm sure he did > many times) is that any different from doing something Lily asks of > him? He obviously loved them both as best friends and in Lily's case > also a lover. Why should a man doing what a woman asks of him > somehow defined, in you opinion, as `whipped'! > Jeff: Again, his realtionship with Lily was different, unless he was sexually involved with Sirius as well, then we have another set of dynamics to discuss, since he chose one lover over another. Also, again, for some reason american society and British society see a man who cows down to a woman as being weaker for some reason. I don't agree, but my statement was meant as cheek, not offense. Perhaps you need to explain why you seem so bent out of shape over a short comment? This concerns me. > I enjoy this discussion site immensely because all those who > contribute are intelligent and respectful in voicing their opinions. > I ask that you please do the same. > Jeff: I have. I haven't even raised my voice in anger like it appears that you have, nor do I hold any malice toward you, just concern. > I will entertain a single response if necessary but then we let us > drop the subject, as it is not HP related. > > Mandy. Jeff: So you're taking it upon yourself to act as a moderator and "allowing" me to make one comment and that's it? How rude. I won't say any more. Jeff From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 10 15:32:27 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:32:27 -0000 Subject: McGonagall, Harry and the Ginger Newts/Potions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82646 Lynne wrote: >>The reason why McGonagal was telling Harry to eat Ginger Newt was because they had the calming potion in them...Harry was very worked up about Umbridge......>> Now, this is interesting. When this discussion thread came up a couple of months ago, I argued fervently against Professor McGonagall having any sort of agenda like that in this particular scene. I think somebody actually suggested that she was feeding him biscuits to keep his mouth shut so she could get a word in! I can still see my original point. Feeding a student a particular potion without their knowledge in order to get a particular response is something *Umbridge* does, and McGonagall, more than any other character, is set up as a foil for Umbridge in OoP. But yet, there we have it. Two powerful female teachers, two offices, two sets of snacks offered to Harry. Hang on a sec while I grab my handy, pocket sized OoP... Ah, here we go. Harry has been sent to her office by Umbridge, and has just attracted her attention by doing his ALL CAPS SHOUTY THING outside her door (at Peeves). Apologies for quoting at length. ********************************************************************* 'Well?' said Professor McGonagall, rounding on him. 'Is this true?' 'Is what true?' Harry asked, rather more aggressively than he had intended.'Professor.' he added, in an attempt to sound more polite. Professor McGonagall sat down behind her desk, watching Harry closely. Then she said, 'Have a biscuit, Potter.' 'Have - what?' 'Have a biscuit,' she repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin lying on top of one of the piles of papers on her desk. 'And sit down.' There had been a previous occasion when Harry, expecting to be caned by Professor McGonagall, had instead been appointed to the Gryffindor Quidditch team. He sank into a chair opposite her and helped himself to a Ginger Newt, feeling just as as confused and wrong-footed as he had done on that occasion. Professor McGonagall set down Professor Umbridge's note and looked very seriously at Harry. 'Potter, you need to be careful.' Harry swallowed his mouthful of Ginger Newt and stared at her. Her tone of voice was not at all what he was used to; it was not brisk, crisp and stern; it was low, anxious and somehow much more human than usual. '...Just remember: tread carefully around Dolores Umbridge.' 'But I was telling the truth!' said Harry, outraged. 'For heaven's sake, Potter!' said Professor McGonagall, straightening her glasses angrily...'DO you really thing this is about truth or lies? It's about keeping your head down and your temper under control!' She stood up, nostrils wide and mouth very thin, and Harry stood up too. 'Have another biscuit,' she said, irritably, thrusting the tin at him. 'No thanks,' said Harry coldly. 'Don't be ridiculous,' she snapped. He took one. 'Thanks,' he said grudgingly. Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, then sniffed, walked around her desk and held the door open for him. 'Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermione Granger at any rate,' she said, pointing him out of her office. ********************************************************************** So - what do we think. Is Honourable McGonagall dosing up her students without their knowledge or their parent/guardian's permission? I really feel that this merits examination, as the moral implications for the character are fairly huge if she has. The two occasions when she foists biscuits on him come immediately after his outbursts, and there is all that suspicious "eyeing" that she gets up to - in the first occasion she could be deciding whether or not he needed a Calming potion, in the second checking for response. The direct linking of her actions - watching Harry closely to biscuit-proffering - in the first instance certainly seems designed to make us think this. The second instance of "eyeing" is more directly linked to an appraisal of Hermione's skills, and Harry's listening to them, IMHO. Two points against biscuits-with-agenda: Firstly, the narrator doesn't record Harry experiencing any response to the biscuits. There isn't even a noticably calmer response flagged up, and as he boils over again a minute later, I would say that the first biscuit hadn't been particularly successful. JKR, much as I love her, does tend to over-emphasise responses to things like this. But this passage is utterly devoid of description of sensual experience. Secondly - and my original objection - it is utterly out of character. The same person who runs accross a lawn to defend Hagrid from an unfair attack resorts to underhand tactics to manipulate her students? It doesn't make sense. So why on earth include the Ginger newts at all? Another quote, if you'll let me. Umbridge's office, this time...hem hem... ********************************************************************* 'Well, now,' she said, finally, setting down her quill and surveying him complacently, like a toad about to swallow a particularly juicy fly. 'What would you like to drink?' 'What?' said Harry, quite sure he had misheard her. 'To drink, Mr Potter,' she said, smiling still more widely. 'Tea? Coffee? Pumpkin juice?' 'Nothing, thank you,' said Harry. 'I wish you to have a drink with me,' she said, her voice becoming dangerously sweet. 'Choose one.' 'Fine ... tea then,' said Harry, shrugging. She got up and made quite a performance of adding milk with her back to him. She then bustled around the desk with it, smiling in a sinisterly sweet fashion. When several long minutes had passed into silence, she said gaily, 'You're not drinking up!' He raised the cup to hiss lips and just as suddenly lowered it. One of the horrible painted kittens behind Umbridge had great round blue eyes just like Mad-Eye Moody's magical one, and it had just occured to Harry what Mad-Eye would say if he ever heard that Harry had drunk anything offered by a known enemy. ********************************************************************** So, does this prove anything at all apart from that, if McGonagall *is* working with an agenda, she's much better at hiding it than Umbridge is? Does the second passage perhaps serve to comment on the first, setting up further comparisons between DU and MMcG? Does it create a rather unsavoury parallel between them? Harry remembers not to drink anything given to him by a known enemy (bright boy, that), but I wonder if the Mad-Eye reference serves another purpose, as Mad- Eye is famous for not drinking anything given to him by *anyone*, friends included. Is JKR setting McGonagall up for an ESEin the early part of the book? If she is, she's certainly not going about it explicitly, and I think that McG's elevation to heroic status towards the end rather counteracts any previous ill will towards her. I wonder about all these potions, though. When reading OoP for the first time, I was convinced that Kreacher had been secretly poisoning Sirius with some of those hot-headed plants (can't find the whereabouts of that particular quote), and that the emphasis on food, drink, and posions throughout was going to amount to something a bit more spectacular than Snape mixing up fake Veritaserum. I still wonder. The Second Voldemort War is still very much an underground war, and I think it will continue to be despite the captured DEs. And in an underground war, you use poisons and death- stoppering potions rather than flashy AKs. I think all this emphasis on trust (who can you?) particularly concerned with food, is leading us somewhere. Although personally I would feel a lot happier if McGonagall's integrity wasn't laid on the line as a result. Thoughts? Rotten tomatoes? Kirstini From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 10 16:20:25 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:20:25 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <1065722706.184.54582.w78@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82647 --- > Sirius Black's Death Poll: please express your opinion > (personal preference, not prediction) in the debate by > completing the sentence, "If I were J.K. Rowling, I would... > > > (other options snipped) > o have him dead but present in the narrative as a frequent topic of conversation and recollection, or appear in a Pensieve memory. > o have him dead and Harry simply coming to terms with loss and grief. > o have Harry try to bring him back from the land of the dead and fail. > o do something substantially different. (Please post your answer on HPFGU). I posted about a foreign DADA teacher and the Tropical Bird Sirius sent. What I'd like to see is: - someone that Sirius trusted more than anyone, - now living in a tropical country, - who helped Padfoot after POA, - to become the new DADA teacher He/she could come to Sirius's funeral/wake, and DD asks him/her to stay and teach. BTW, if Sirius was the godfather, was there a godmother ??? From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri Oct 10 16:26:13 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:26:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7750DBAF-FB3E-11D7-A21B-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 82648 > Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; > Laura, just wondering, would you consider Rita and Umbridge basicly > the same type of nasty person? Oh, I'd say that they're definitely cut from the same cloth. However, they have different motivations and desires, which makes them difficult to compare. And, of course, Umbridge has definitely crossed a few lines that Rita hasn't and probably won't. I'm not saying that Rita isn't *capable* of what Umbridge did, because I think she is, given the right circumstances, but it just isn't her style. > Did Rita try to have dementors sent to take anyones soul? > Did Rita make anyone write lines with a quill that cuts the hand and > uses blood from said cut to write the lines? > I would not like to be friends with someone like a Rita Skitter, but > at least she did not PERSONALLY try to KILL anyone, just humiliate > them. What about Hagrid? Okay, so it might have been unlikely that her article would have prompted a murderous mob to come after him, but it could definitely have ruined him, esp. if Dumbledore wasn't so firmly on his side. Personally, I've never understood this "sticks and stone can break my bones, but words can never hurt me," business. > There is a difference between being "HORRIBLE" and UNKIND. > But, perhaps I have met more people and understand there are many > levels between nice and horrible. *shrugs to own self also* > ^_~ Well, I *am* from Downeast Maine. We're all about the lack of people there. Anyhow, if your point is that Rita's "badness" isn't on the same level as Umbridge's, I'm with you. I would definitely call Umbridge "EVIL," rather than "HORRIBLE." And then, of course, Voldemort would be on an entirely different level completely. (Although I wonder if you can even say Umbridge is a better person than Voldemort, really. I don't think Umbridge isn't out there killing and maiming and trying to take over the world because she has a moral *objection* to it. I just think she a) isn't interested in it b) it hasn't occurred to her and/or c) she hasn't got the balls or the power to actually do it.) Perhaps our disagreement is less of a difference of opinions and more of a difference of word choice? Just for comparison purposes, would you call Wormtail "horrible"? Laura (who never thought her small-town upbringing would prove to be such a handicap in understanding the world. ^_~) From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 10 16:27:11 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:27:11 -0000 Subject: Reason LV choose Harry (was Re: MWPP in 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82649 --- "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, furkin1712 at a... wrote: > that also explains why Harry was chosen > > over Neville, because Neville wasn't special, he was nearly a > Squib. > > > > That's my two cents. > > Blue Eyes > > > > This is in an interesting point. There has been some debate as to > why LV choose Harry over Neville. If Harry was the heir of > Gryffindor, it would make him the move obvious choice. > > Serena But you can't call the then, one year old son of aurors "nearly a squib". (That's my 3 for 1 cent's worth) From jane_starr at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 17:21:58 2003 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagall, Harry and the Ginger Newts/Potions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031010172158.50670.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82650 --- Kirstini wrote: > So - what do we think. Is Honourable McGonagall > dosing up her students without their knowledge or > their parent/guardian's permission? > So why on earth include the Ginger newts at all? Well, your points against (I had to snip them) are both excellent, plus I like the "keep his mouth shut so she can get a word in edgewise" theory, but here's my take on it: Offering food is traditionally a way of showing that one is friendly. I thought McG was just trying to make Harry understand that even though she was exasperated and a bit angry with him, she had his best interests at heart. Also, if she has a tin on her desk they're probably her very favourite kind of biscuit and it's really very kind of her to share. I will never believe (unless JKR says so) that McG would do anything as underhanded as feed trojan-horse calming potions to her students, and anyway, if she did they'd have the intended effect first time. She is nothing if not efficient. I'm exceedingly fond of ginger biscuits of any description and so what *I* wondered after that scene was how/if ginger newts differed from other ginger biscuits. Are they newt-shaped? Do they wiggle as you eat them? Is newt one of the ingredients? The last two items would be hard to replicate (although with enough ginger added I *would* try one with actual newt in it as long as the newt was in invisibly small bits) but I bet I could buy or make a newt-shaped cookie cutter. Yours, sincerely ===== JES Canada __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From steve at hp-lexicon.org Fri Oct 10 17:52:53 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:52:53 -0000 Subject: discussion list for kids? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > A very bright 9 year old friend of mine who is a huge HP fan would > like to find a discussion group like this one that is intended for > kids. Does anyone have any recommendations? You could take a look at the Forum on the Lexicon. Because the Lexicon is used by many, many students in schools for HP research, and because it has been officially approved by organizations such as Big Chalk and the Ministry of Education of Australia, the Lexicon pointed stays away from adult topics and doesn't allow swearing, netspeak, sexual innuendo, or other things which would not be acceptable in an educational setting. The moderators are very strict about things like that. But aside from that, the discussions are very similar to the ones on HPfGU. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Oct 10 18:01:58 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:01:58 -0000 Subject: discussion list for kids? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > A very bright 9 year old friend of mine who is a huge HP fan would > like to find a discussion group like this one that is intended for > kids. Does anyone have any recommendations? The only one that > looked promising after a brief search was Snitchseeker, but it looks > like it's pretty complicated to post to. > > Thanks- > > Laura Jeff: And you think *this* list is easy? :) You just about have to get a Royal Decree to get anything posted here, and then hope some elf doesn't wait 2 weeks to complain about it. :) Jeff From steve at hp-lexicon.org Fri Oct 10 18:07:08 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:07:08 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" > wrote: > > The HP Lexicon has OoTP confirming that Lupin and Black > were in the > > same House as James Potter. Pettigrew's house is still up in > the air. > > > > > I quote the Lexicon: > > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/marauders.html > ***** > Which?House were they in? > Good question. We don't know the answer as yet, although it is > fairly certain that James was in Gryffindor. In Order of the > Phoenix, Lupin and Sirius recall that Lupin was made a Prefect > in the hopes that he could keep James and Sirius in line, which > strongly suggests that they were all in the same house. There > are other reasons why this seems almost certain. It seems likely > that for the four to be as close as they were, they would need to > all be in the same House. Also, Lupin clearly favored Gryffindor > when it came to Quidditch and Sirius apparently knew the layout > of Gryffindor tower pretty well when he snuck in to find Scabbers > on two occasions. We still don't know for sure, however. > ***** > > Steve is not as definite here as on some other Lexicon pages. > He's also a tad circular (sorry Steve!) Don't be sorry! I sometimes lose track of where I've written on a topic and don't always update each and every page that should be updated. For example, James is positively identified as being in Gryffindor in OP, but there are still places in the Lexicon, such as this page, where is says only that it's "fairly certain." Basically, here's what I'm saying: 1 - James is in Gryffindor (says so in OP) 2 - Lupin, James, and Sirius were almost certainly (99.99% sure) in the same house, judging by the "which of us was made prefect" conversation in "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley" Therefore, Lupin and Sirius were in Gryffindor. Peter is the one we don't know about, but I would say it's very likely that he was Gryffindor as well, given that the rest of them were. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From cookiemacster at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 03:41:50 2003 From: cookiemacster at yahoo.com (cookiemacster) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:41:50 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" > wrote: *SNIP!!! > > I did think it was intresting that after seeing James as a > bully, > > and Lily not being fond of him, would actually marry him just a few > > short years later. I guess James could've made a big change, but > from > > how Sirius acted, I dont know how true that is. *More Snipage! > Salit My Turn! Just a little thought... In 5 when James and Sirius are bullying Snape and have him hanging up-side-down, though Lily does yell at the two to leave him alone, I couldn't help noticing the line: "Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, "Let him down!" I really don't think that Lily hated James. Maybe she was a prefect, one more like Hermione and less like Lupin. Maybe, she had had enough of seeing James Bully Snape and finaly decided to do something about it. I think that Rowling threw that little bit in to show that Lily didn't really hate James. (She could just be playing hard to get!) -Macy From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Oct 10 06:45:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 06:45:09 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter - the background in the British Press (Longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: June: > IMHO the Daily Prophet is not the Times. It is the Daily Mirror or > the Daily Mail (these are tabloid newspapers and therefore > downmarket) the Mail is conservative aligned and the Mirror is > largely pro-Tony Blair. The broadsheet press do not largely employ > the likes of Rita Skeeters. > > Geoff: I beg to differ. The wizarding world appears to have two papers - "The Daily Prophet" and "The Quibbler". I feel that the DP would be nearer to "The Times". The latter paper is often considered to be very much "the" paper and it carries official information. The Court Circular for example details movements of the Royal Family and there will be reports of goings-on in Parliament often extracted from the official record Hansard and much political action outside of Westminster is frequently covered. The DP is obviously the mouthpiece of the Ministry of Magic and under a considerable degree of control by Fudge whereby the official line is promulgated to the detriment of anyone who doesn't toe this line or enjoy the favour of the establishment. "The Quibbler"? To those who know it, I would equate it to the "Sunday Sport". Geoff: From liz at studylink.com Fri Oct 10 09:18:11 2003 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:18:11 +0100 Subject: the photo (was:Lily and James, a hpappy couple?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82656 on 9/10/03 10:19 pm, slgazit at slgazit at sbcglobal.net wrote: > I think that JKR's had several things in mind when she had Peter sit > between James and Lily in the photo... > > For the readers this is also meant to convey how much Lily and James > trusted Peter and viewed him as part of their family, moreso even > than Lupin and Sirius. It is possible that this subtly indicates that > while Sirius and James (seated side by side? don't have the book with > me) were best friends, Lily probably was more friendly with Peter > than with the other two. It also seems to emphasise the estrangement of Lupin from the others - James, Lily, Peter and Sirius are all sitting together and he is on the other side of the photograph, well away from his best friends. The photo seemed to be designed for maximum awfulness - the betrayer seated right between James and Lily, all the dreadful fates of the members of the Order. I got the feeling Moody showed it to Harry not really as a treat but rather to kind of see how tough he is, especially as he watches Harry's reaction with his magic eye all the way upstairs. This is my first post, by the way. I've been lurking for about a month and finally decided to say hello! Liz From KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net Fri Oct 10 09:26:19 2003 From: KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net (Kagome Shikon Seeker) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:26:19 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: questions about HP (Evans?) In-Reply-To: <0b6701c38e74$7f654680$06ec87d9@robertft56e9wi> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82657 Robert Shaw: There is a very different group of possibilities which would also explain Petunia's knowledge. Suppose Petunia had a close encounter with the wizarding world when she was younger. Maybe marauders visited Lily one summer, but weren't very discreet. Petunia can be very nosy. Kagome: Well, my personal belief (and I know this is an odd one) is that Petunia has untrained magical ability. I know this may be an odd thing to believe, but it stems from a line in OoP: "Funny place," she (Tonks) said, "it's a bit ~too~ clean, d'you know what I mean? Bit unnatural." That, combined with the fact that Petunia ~does~ remember what James told Lily about the dementors and Azkaban, makes me believe that it's quite possible that Petunia had gotten a letter for Hogwarts first (there's no canon as to whether she's younger or older that I know of, I just suspect from various things that she's older), but either didn't believe it was real or had been afraid of it. So perhaps she had ignored it, or ripped it up, or whatever, and that had been taken by the magical world as a refusal. Then the next year her sister got a letter, and Petunia was horrified to learn that, after all, it was ~real~, and in her jealousy, she simply convinced herself that she thought such stuff was 'nonsense' and/or 'evil' in some manner. That's the only thing that to ~me~ makes sense that she would have remembered the things her sister had said after all those years, despite supposedly 'hating' magic and anything to do with that. Can we say jealousy, anyone? I just think she has some minor magical abilities she uses on occasion, and doesn't necessarily know she's doing it. And I think she subconsciously knows about it, even though consciously she denies it. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Oct 10 12:45:29 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:45:29 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Claire" wrote: Jennifer: > > Does anyone think that Peter will redeem himself? I think it may > be > > possible and perhaps one of the happier aspects of the resolution > of > > the matter. Of course should he redeem himself, he'll have to die > in > > his efforts to act in a courageous and honorable way. Maybe I'm > too > > optimistic... > Claire: > I believe Peter will do something that, if not exactly redemption > for himself, will go contrary to LV's wishes. After all, DD says in > PoA that Harry has "sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your > debt...When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a > certain bond between them..." IMO, Peter is not evil, he's weak and > a follower. So, I don't think you're too optimistic, Jennifer. Geoff: A couple of thoughts from recent posts on this thread. As I have said previously (80110 among others), I see Harry as a type of the Christian making his way through life, not as a Christ figure. He is, like Simon Peter, an encouragement to me because he can reach great heights and also mess up and fall over his own feet, figuratively speaking, which means I'm not the only idiot on the block. Having recently drawn a parallel between Wormtail and Wormtongue, I now find myself thinking of Wormtail and Gollum. Frodo spared Gollum (as did Bilbo years before) and, in the end, it is Gollum's intervention which brought about the completion of the quest. DD intimated that Peter Pettigrew might have a part to play because of the bond which Claire mentioned above. That bond may yet have an influence on the turn of events on the future. From henning2 at terra.com.br Fri Oct 10 13:08:52 2003 From: henning2 at terra.com.br (celebrimborcormacolindor) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:08:52 -0000 Subject: Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82659 Well, after reading hickengruendler's post I think I must clarify two points. First, I never intended to question Neville's courage. My point is not about courage and cowardice, but about heroic and pathetic characters; and with all his courage, Neville is not an heroic character, but a pathetic one. We smile when he tries to stop Harry, Ron and Hermione when they go for the Philosopher's Stone in SS/SP 16; we cry when he shouts "STUBEFY! STUBEFY!" to the Death Eaters in OotP 35; and it breaks our hearts to see Bella using the Cruciatus Curse on him. In all this his courage only emphasizes his na?vet?, his defencelessness and his clumsiness, moving us to that compassionate pity that is the hallmark of the pathetic character. It is certain that we wish he becomes the hero he wishes to be. Nevertheless, until now we have only Neville-as-pathos, Neville as someone who evokes pity and compassion. And this, I think, justifies my surprise with the text in Chapter 37 of OotP that suggests he could be the hero referred in the prophecy. The second point I want to clarify is this: when I say that it's possible to tell the tale of Harry Potter without mention of a certain character or his/her actions, this doesn't mean that I think this character is superfluous or must be eliminated. Of course these secondary characters help to make the flair of the books; and of course we can sympathize with them even if they don't participate in the conflict. For example, I have a special sympathy for Minerva McGonagall; and it's certainly possible to tell the tale of Harry Potter without mention of Minerva and her actions. So, when I say that until now Neville is a secondary character, I am not criticizing the poor boy, I am not criticizing the readers who sympathize with him, and certainly I am not criticizing JKR. I am only stressing his reduced importance until now, because Neville receives much more space than justified by his importance. In fact, this disparity between his importance and the amount of time used by JKR to tell things about him was one of the reasons that made me think about his character and his role in the future books. Now, I must say that in my opinion Hagrid is a different case. You cannot supress Hagrid's actions without producing significant changes in the story. Hagrid is not only the man who rescued Harry when Harry's parents were killed; Hagrid is also the man who knew how to pass by Fluffy, he was the boy expelled from Hogwarts thanks to Riddle, he raised the hippogriff that saved Sirius, he saved the centaur who now teaches at Hogwart's and so on. If you suppress all this, you will have to change (a) the obstacles in the way to the Philosopher's Stone, (b) the story of Tom Riddle, (c) the story about Buckbeak's trial, (d) the docents of Hogwarts School. Hagrid's actions have consequences in a way that McGonagall's actions (and Neville's actions) have not, at least until now. This makes him a much more important character in the development of the story. Ginny is less important; nevertheless she is the girl who was possessed by Tom Riddle in CS. Fred and George are even less important to the conflict; but they are mini-stars in OotP 29, when they make their spectacular flight to freedom under the nose of Umbridge. And, if I was forced to put Neville somewhere in this (to a certain extent subjective) ranking of importance, I will put him right here, after the twins and before Percy, who has the important role of a pain in ... well, you know what I mean ;) But, of course, I still think that Neville's importance will grow in books six/seven, like I said in my original post. Finally, I must say that the fact that someone survived an attack by Voldemort doesn't make this someone the chosen one. In CS Ginny was attacked by Tom Riddle and survived; in OotP 21-22 Arthur Weasley was attacked by Voldemort and survived; in OotP 36 Dumbledore was attacked by Voldemort and survived. Add Harry and you will have *four* people-who-lived; they can't be all "chosen ones". But, of course, I can be totally wrong: that is the fun of this kind of discussion. - Fernando Henning (with Kelley Elf's help) From nianya_c at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 13:12:49 2003 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:12:49 -0000 Subject: Coifs and Alignment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82660 wrote: In general characters with messy or unkempt hair are good and characters with more managed hair are more questionable if not evil. Interesting, but disturbing thought. That would mean of course that Snape is very good and Lupin might be questionable (doesn't he have fairly managed, but graying hair). Since Lupin is one of my favorite characters still alive I'm distressed at the thought. Any other comparisons?? Nianya From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 9 13:08:58 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:08:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Army = House Elves References: <20031010060617.47256.qmail@web60106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d301c38e66$85a81760$bcee79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82661 > > owlery2003 > Dumbledore's Army will turn out to be a loyal group of Hogwart's house elves. I suspect they may receive some sort of "uniform" (ie:clothes!) in recognition of their new status as (free) members of the school staff (ie: they are "asked" to stay/work/be paid vs. "enslavement"). Elves are powerfully magical, with a natural (wandless!) ability that even wizards are fearful of (see Malfoy, Sr.). Therefore, under the Direction of Dumbledore, they would be a formidable (and doubtless a defensive) weapon in the Order's arsenal. > Iggy: I think it'll actually be Hermione who organizes the House Elves into an army... with Dumbledore's consent. It also probably won't happen (however) until there's an actual battle on the school grounds... then Hermione will rally all the elves to the defense of the school and they will be freed (but retained as employees) in return for their services. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 9 13:11:43 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:11:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: McGonagal, Harry and the Ginger Newts....was Names of St Mungo's wards/SILK References: Message-ID: <00da01c38e66$e3b7fc80$bcee79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82662 From: "lynnfaragher78" > The reason why McGonagal was telling Harry to eat Ginger Newt was > because they had the calming potion in them...Harry was very worked > up about Umbridge...... > Is there canon to support this? (My theory runs more along the lines of the fact that it's easier to get someone to shut up by giving them a snack than to just tell them to be quiet. I also think it was her way of letting him know that, while she's upset with him for arguing with Umbridge, she still understands.) Just my two centaur's worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From nianya_c at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 14:52:19 2003 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:52:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82663 Hagrid wrote: I think Sirius had a wand in GOF.....He was looking so well and clean cut in the fireplace that Harry thought he looked 20 years younger. Sirius must have been with friends after POA that helped him a lot.....Maybe the identity of the TROPICAL BIRD would help...any ideas? Nianya wrote: I think Sirius had a secret hiding place one that he was planning to go to ...... he says in Shrieking Shack (I think) that he was planning on going into hiding himself.....and in GoF he says that the dementors have no hope of finding him where he is. I'm not sure it's somewhere tropical though it could have been in London, well stocked with whatever he might need. Clothes, razor, probably food, who knows. Maybe whoever was helping him and who may have given him "the wand" also arranged for delivery of the letter from a Tropical Locale. From davidseppi at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 18:32:41 2003 From: davidseppi at yahoo.com (davidseppi) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:32:41 -0000 Subject: Wild Speculation for a Unified Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82664 After much pondering over Dumbledores' proverbial "look of triumph" at the end of GOF. Logically, one thinks that Harry's blood provides some weakness that will ultimately bring about LV's downfall. Suppose now, that rather than weakness, the blood brings power over Harry as LV thinks. Taking the logic one step further, what if it is Neville who is the "promised one?" Would Harry's blood, while strengthening LV against Harry, provide a weakness that could possibly be exploited by Neville later on thus motivating the *look of triumph*? The idea doesn't really sit well with me, but suppose Harry's purpose is mearly to keep LV occupied while Neville will ultimately doom LV much like Frodo's Golem to The Dark Lord. From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 9 18:28:36 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:28:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) References: Message-ID: <006701c38e93$2cf81b60$b695aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82665 >From: Steve Vander Ark >The Harry Potter Lexicon > > >Peter is the one we don't know about, but I would say it's very >likely that he was Gryffindor as well, given that the rest of them >were. Iggy: I just realized something. I think we can almost count it as canon that Peter was in Slytherin. Remember: Hagrid is quoted as saying that there wasn't a witch or wizard that went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. Peter went bad in his betrayal of James and Lilly, in betraying the Order by turning two of their members to Voldemort, in turning his back on the Order by joining Voldemort, and all the stuff he did since then. Also, as quoted from Phineas Nigellus (OotP, ch 23, p 495, US ed.) "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always chose to save our own necks." Peter always chose to save his own neck rather than do what he knew was right. (Especially in helping to capture Harry and raise Voldemort in GoF, even though he really didn't want to use Harry.) Also, from almost word one that we hear about him, he always hung out with people stronger than himself in order both to feel important, and to protect himself. Something that's decidedly a Slytherin thing to do, IMHO. (Also, I don't know if Voldemort would trust anyone who WASN'T from Slytherin. Which is one reason Snapes is such a good spy for Dumbledore to use... He's the Head of Slytherin.) Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "It's a control-freak thing; I wont _let_ you understand..." -- ABS FIRECAT From amani at charter.net Fri Oct 10 19:24:49 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:24:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New poll for HPforGrownups References: Message-ID: <008001c38f64$2c8c4e40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82666 Hagrid: BTW, if Sirius was the godfather, was there a godmother ??? Taryn: Not necessarily. I've known people who've had a godfather and a godmother (me), one godfather, one godmother, and two godfathers, even. (I'm sure there are people with two godmothers, just don't know anyone I'm aware of off the top of my head.) So it's possible, but not necessary. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dwoodward at towson.edu Fri Oct 10 19:31:25 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Woodward, Deirdre) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:31:25 -0400 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82667 Hi all: I've been reading all these posts wondering/debating how Petunia became so knowledgeable about the wizarding world. It seems to me that she would have heard all about the wizarding world during the seven years Lily was at Hogwarts and Petunia was attending whatever school she went to. In letters, over Christmas break and during summer break, Lily would have told Petunia and the rest of her family all kinds of things about the wizarding world. Even in Petunia didn't want to hear it, some of it would have sunk in. Also, Voldemort came to power eleven years before Harry was born (PS/SS). If James and Lily were only in their early to mid 20s when Harry was born, then Voldemort was a powerful scary force while Lily was still in school -- hence, Petunia would have heard about him. Deirdre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 19:34:04 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: <006701c38e93$2cf81b60$b695aec7@rick> Message-ID: <20031010193404.70190.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82668 --- Iggy McSnurd wrote: > > >From: Steve Vander Ark > >The Harry Potter Lexicon > > > > > >Peter is the one we don't know about, but I would > say it's very > >likely that he was Gryffindor as well, given that > the rest of them > >were. > > Iggy: > > I just realized something. I think we can almost > count it as canon that > Peter was in Slytherin. > > Remember: Hagrid is quoted as saying that there > wasn't a witch or wizard > that went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. > > Peter went bad in his betrayal of James and Lilly, > in betraying the Order by > turning two of their members to Voldemort, in > turning his back on the Order > by joining Voldemort, and all the stuff he did since > then. > But they thought Sirius was the betrayer at that time. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 10 19:37:25 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:37:25 -0000 Subject: Coifs and Alignment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82669 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nianya_c" wrote: > wrote: > In general characters with messy or unkempt hair are good and > characters with more managed hair are more questionable if not evil. > > > Interesting, but disturbing thought. That would mean of course that > Snape is very good and Lupin might be questionable (doesn't he have > fairly managed, but graying hair). Since Lupin is one of my favorite > characters still alive I'm distressed at the thought. > > Any other comparisons?? > > Nianya This will of course mean that Hannah Abbott with the blonde pigtails, Cho Chang with the gorgeous, long, black hair and Fleur Delacour (who's never had a bad hair day in her life) are Ever So Evil. Alshain From tminton at deckerjones.com Fri Oct 10 19:42:16 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:42:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Godparents (Was New poll for HPforGrownups) Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE248ACB@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82670 Hagrid: BTW, if Sirius was the godfather, was there a godmother ??? Taryn: Not necessarily. I've known people who've had a godfather and a godmother (me), one godfather, one godmother, and two godfathers, even. (I'm sure there are people with two godmothers, just don't know anyone I'm aware of off the top of my head.) So it's possible, but not necessary. Now Me Tonya: My daughter who is now 3 years old has 2 godfathers. It just worked out that way. They are like brothers to my husband and myself. It will be interesting to find out how JKR sorts it all out in the end. Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Oct 10 19:48:58 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:48:58 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter - the background in the British Press (Longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > wrote: > > > June: > > IMHO the Daily Prophet is not the Times. It is the Daily Mirror or > > the Daily Mail (these are tabloid newspapers and therefore > > downmarket) the Mail is conservative aligned and the Mirror is > > largely pro-Tony Blair. The broadsheet press do not largely employ the likes of Rita Skeeters. > > >> > Geoff: > I beg to differ. The wizarding world appears to have two papers - > "The Daily Prophet" and "The Quibbler". Your opinion - and valid - I'm not quarrelsome! However, if I'm wrong - would you please point out the Times equivalent of Rita? > > I feel that the DP would be nearer to "The Times". The latter paper > is often considered to be very much "the" paper and it carries > official information. The Court Circular for example details > movements of the Royal Family and there will be reports of goings- on > in Parliament often extracted from the official record Hansard and > much political action outside of Westminster is frequently covered. > The DP is obviously the mouthpiece of the Ministry of Magic and under > a considerable degree of control by Fudge Many newspapers in the UK are mouthpieces of the government because their owners will it that way. This was notorious under the last Conservative administration (Murdoch owned papers in particular) but regrettably the Labour Government (pace Alastair) seem to have picked up this ball and run with it. Then shall we compromise in our search for an RL Rita and select the Daily Telegraph - perhaps Rita is Petronella Wyatt (LOL)? > > "The Quibbler"? To those who know it, I would equate it to > the "Sunday Sport". Yes indeed. Americans would recognise the National Enquirer or People Magazine. I hold by my views that JKR is saying what she feels she needs to about the British Press, and to do this has created an amalgam of many of the elements that make it up into two publications only. Possibly a full depiction of the WW journalism would take another book entirely. I do know that JKR has actually had legal run ins with the press (regarding privacy) which I believe must inform some of her writing. I see elements of a good many british newspapers (across the class and political spectrum in the UK) in the Daily Prophet. I also see a good many of the uglier aspects of our press in JKR's depiction of the Prophet. Furthermore, I hold to my earlier opinion that she is also making a nod to the very real government intervention in the press - which in the UK of spin - we know to be true. If anything she says lights fires in the young people who read the books not to take everything that is printed in the press as absolute truth, but rather as deserving of a healthy scepticism then, power to her. Whatever we think about the press in the RL - there is no excuse whatever for the DP treatment of Harry. June From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Oct 10 19:57:13 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:57:13 -0000 Subject: Neville's Role in Books Six/Seven In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celebrimborcormacolindor" wrote: > Well, after reading hickengruendler's post I think I must clarify two > points. First, I never intended to question Neville's courage. Okay :-) > My > point is not about courage and cowardice, but about heroic and > pathetic characters; and with all his courage, Neville is not an > heroic character, but a pathetic one. I only agree partly with you in this point. Of course he envokes pity and is in many ways a bit pathetic, but nonetheless I would call him a heroic character. I think his actions are heroic enough, even if he doesn't suceed. > We smile when he tries to stop > Harry, Ron and Hermione when they go for the Philosopher's Stone in > SS/SP 16; we cry when he shouts "STUBEFY! STUBEFY!" to the Death > Eaters in OotP 35; and it breaks our hearts to see Bella using the > Cruciatus Curse on him. In all this his courage only emphasizes his > na?vet?, his defencelessness and his clumsiness, moving us to that > compassionate pity that is the hallmark of the pathetic character. Yes and no. I agree completely with you about the part when he tries to stop the Trio in book 1, but although I see your point, I don't really agree with your opinion about the part in the Department of Mysteries. Mainly because Bellatrix didn't simply use Crucio on him. She threatened to do so, and then Neville told Harry, not to give her the prophecy, although he knew what was coming. And then Bellatrix used Crucio on him. That means he basically was willing to sacrifice himself for a greater good, and that shows IMO that he is also a heroic character. And there was a reason why he was defencelessness in this scene. His nose was broken and he therefore wasn't able to pronounce the spells correctly. Before this happened, he did a stupefy spell (it was in the time room, however the spell missed his aim). Of course even if he wasn't handicapped, he would have had no chances against all of the Death Eaters, but the same is true for the other members of the D.A., even Harry (at least yet). And Neville saved Harry's life during the battle, when MacNair tried to strangle Harry. > So, when I say that until now Neville is a secondary character, I am > not criticizing the poor boy, I am not criticizing the readers who > sympathize with him, and certainly I am not criticizing JKR. That wasn't what I meant to say. Sorry, if I expressed myself not clearly enough. :-) I just wanted to make clear the point about the general flair, with which you agreed. > > Now, I must say that in my opinion Hagrid is a different case. You > cannot supress Hagrid's actions without producing significant changes > in the story. Hagrid is not only the man who rescued Harry when > Harry's parents were killed; Hagrid is also the man who knew how to > pass by Fluffy, he was the boy expelled from Hogwarts thanks to > Riddle, he raised the hippogriff that saved Sirius, he saved the > centaur who now teaches at Hogwart's and so on. If you suppress all > this, you will have to change (a) the obstacles in the way to the > Philosopher's Stone, (b) the story of Tom Riddle, (c) the story about > Buckbeak's trial, (d) the docents of Hogwarts School. Hagrid's > actions have consequences in a way that McGonagall's actions (and > Neville's actions) have not, at least until now. This makes him a > much more important character in the development of the story. Okay. You are right. > > Ginny is less important; nevertheless she is the girl who was > possessed by Tom Riddle in CS. Fred and George are even less > important to the conflict; but they are mini-stars in OotP 29, when > they make their spectacular flight to freedom under the nose of > Umbridge. And, if I was forced to put Neville somewhere in this (to a > certain extent subjective) ranking of importance, I will put him > right here, after the twins and before Percy, who has the important > role of a pain in ... well, you know what I mean ;) Yeah, right after I sent this post I thought about Ginny's part in CoS, and of course it is important. The scenes with the twins are entertaining and I like them, but nonetheless they are not necessary for the tale (yet). But I like characters like Neville, the twins, McGonagall and Percy far better than most of the main characters, especially Hagrid (what was probably the reason, why I included him at first here, which wasn't really objective, I admit), therefore I would really miss them. *g* But like I alraedy that, I think that every potential allie is important for the future, because the few main characters are IMO not enough to defeat Voldemort and his army of Death Eaters, Dementors and giants. And for this it is important to flesh them out, that we care about them. Hickengruendler From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Oct 10 20:09:45 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:09:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who inherits 12 Gimmauld Place? Message-ID: <12d.326dad62.2cb86c09@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82673 > >Maybe the property of condemned > >prisioners goes to the Ministry. (In colonial New England, the > laws > >of England of the time applied, and the property of executed > >prisoners was forfeited to the colony.) > But then it would have already belong to the ministry when Sirius' mother died. Sirius would have never been able to inheirit it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 20:17:32 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:17:32 -0000 Subject: Sirius poll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82674 I sent the following message to Sandy offlist, and she told me I had to post it to the list, so here it is: But Sandy, what about the option of having him appear alive and well in my living room? I'd have to work a few things out with my husband, but...it sounds like a happy ending to me! ;-) Laura, who long ago lost any vestige of pride... PS Don't worry, Siriophiles-I'll share. :-) From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 10 22:02:33 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:02:33 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82675 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: > Who will be the Judas for this version? I'd vote for Tonks. I > don't really know why, but she tends to stick out like Peter does, > imho. I don't mean to offend her fans, as I *do* like her, but I just > have this feeling, and I could be very wrong. If Peter is any guide, I'd expect the betrayer to be someone with emotional problems and low self esteem who feels the need to prove themselves better than others. Tonks is (IMO) too assertive and is such a self confident, cheerfull person that I can't see her in that role. In addition, the betrayer must be entrusted with a very important task to do real damage (e.g. secret keeper). Tonks is not. I personally put my money on Snape as the eventual betrayer (I don't think he is as of yet), especially if DD snuffs it and he'll face the choice of going back to his former master or helping a boy he detests. He just has the right kind of conflicted personality to fit the role perfectly, and I find it hard to believe that JKR will choose a very minor character for such an important role. No, the betrayer must be one of the main characters, and Snape fits the bill perfectly... [ JP saving Snape in the Shrieking Shack incident ] > Ah, but did he do it on his own, of because Lily made him? If they > were falling in love at this point, James could've done it out of > love for her, not for anything else. If you think about it, he went > against his best friend to save a common enemy. Only a whipped male > would dare go against his best friend. :) I've seen this in too many > married freinds, and it's just part of love, I guess. We know from Harry's post-pensieve discussion with Sirius and Lupin that James and Lily started going out in their 7th year. We also know from Snape's outburst regarding Sirius that "Black tried to commit murder at the age of 16" (he says that to DD at the end of PoA). So they must have been in their 6th year when that happened. In other words, it's unlikely that Lily was involved, but more than likely that James' behaviour during that incident made a positive impression on her. I am sure we'll hear more on this incident in book 6, when Harry is at the same age, but I am certain that James did it for the "right reasons", to save a life. He may have been a jerk in the pensieve incident, but we have plenty of evidence from all 5 books that he was a very decent human being as an adult. Salit From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Oct 10 22:23:04 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:23:04 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > Jeff: > > Who will be the Judas for this version? I'd vote for Tonks. I > > don't really know why, but she tends to stick out like Peter does, > > imho. I don't mean to offend her fans, as I *do* like her, but I > just > > have this feeling, and I could be very wrong. > slgazit: > If Peter is any guide, I'd expect the betrayer to be someone with > emotional problems and low self esteem who feels the need to prove > themselves better than others. Tonks is (IMO) too assertive and is > such a self confident, cheerfull person that I can't see her in that > role. In addition, the betrayer must be entrusted with a very > important task to do real damage (e.g. secret keeper). Tonks is not. > Jeff: I agree with that profile of her, but just because she seems happy, doesn't mean that the idea of more power or money won't appeal to her. Even the most strong of character can be persuaded. Peter wasn't really that large of a character in the books since he was a rat for most of them. ;) slgazit: > I personally put my money on Snape as the eventual betrayer (I don't > think he is as of yet), especially if DD snuffs it and he'll face the > choice of going back to his former master or helping a boy he > detests. He just has the right kind of conflicted personality to fit > the role perfectly, and I find it hard to believe that JKR will > choose a very minor character for such an important role. No, the > betrayer must be one of the main characters, and Snape fits the bill > perfectly... > Jeff: Fair enough. I don't trust Snape in the least. When DD buys the farm, Snape will have lots to think of. He is very loyal to the Order and while I can't really state that I know his mind beyond a reasonable doubt, I'm very much on the fence on him. DD seems to know a man's heart and I *think* he'd know Snape's true nature after all these years to trust him as he has. But again. Voldie could exert some force on him after DD's death that could change his mind easily. He's not off my list of suspects by any means, but I'm just stating that there are others to consider. > [ JP saving Snape in the Shrieking Shack incident ] > Jeff: > > Ah, but did he do it on his own, of because Lily made him? If > they > > were falling in love at this point, James could've done it out of > > love for her, not for anything else. If you think about it, he went > > against his best friend to save a common enemy. Only a whipped male > > would dare go against his best friend. :) I've seen this in too > many > > married freinds, and it's just part of love, I guess. > slgazit: > We know from Harry's post-pensieve discussion with Sirius and Lupin > that James and Lily started going out in their 7th year. We also know > from Snape's outburst regarding Sirius that "Black tried to commit > murder at the age of 16" (he says that to DD at the end of PoA). So > they must have been in their 6th year when that happened. In other > words, it's unlikely that Lily was involved, but more than likely > that James' behaviour during that incident made a positive impression > on her. I am sure we'll hear more on this incident in book 6, when > Harry is at the same age, but I am certain that James did it for > the "right reasons", to save a life. He may have been a jerk in the > pensieve incident, but we have plenty of evidence from all 5 books > that he was a very decent human being as an adult. > Jeff: I can see your point. I just wondered what James' motives were. Was it to impress Lily? Did he think that this prank, out of all the ones they've done, was a bit too much? Somehow I doubt it, simply because had James had a change of heart and meant to be galliant and all that, Snape would've had a slightly better opinion of him, which apparently he doesn't and he even carries his hate on to the next generation of potters. If he lives, will he hate Harry's offspring? Possibly. Snape didnt trust James nor appreciate what he did, so that leads me to believe that James didnt stay all that nice very long. It remains to be seen, but we'll have to wait until a later date to be certain. Jeff From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Oct 10 22:45:28 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:45:28 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: ." > > Basically, here's what I'm saying: > > 1 - James is in Gryffindor (says so in OP) > 2 - Lupin, James, and Sirius were almost certainly (99.99% sure) in > the same house, judging by the "which of us was made prefect" > conversation in "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley" > > Therefore, Lupin and Sirius were in Gryffindor. > > Peter is the one we don't know about, but I would say it's very > likely that he was Gryffindor as well, given that the rest of them > were. Sirius: "No one would have made me a prefect, I spent too much time in detention with James. Lupin was the good boy, he got the badge" Lupin:"I think Dumbledore might have hoped that I would exercise some control over my two best friends..." I see. Steve reads it as: Lupin was the good boy [in our house that year] whom Dumbledore might have hoped would exercise some control over his two best friends. I think Sirius meant Lupin was the good boy [in our little group] whom Dumbledore might have hoped would exercise some control over his two best friends. None of the prefects, in any house, Gryffindor included, were able to put a stop to the mischief making in the first four years. Wouldn't Dumbledore decide that what he needs in a fifth year prefect is somebody who's actually in the group? As for the werewolf outings, which began *after* Lupin was made prefect, I think it would have been easier to cover for their absences if they were coming from different Houses. After all, an entirely empty dormitory is bound to attract attention from somebody, whereas one empty curtained bed in each of three rooms in different Houses (Lupin's absence is authorized) wouldn't be so easily remarked. The other students would know, in fact Snape spies on them a lot. But none of them want their House to lose points, so they keep quiet. It's *easier* for them to get out if they're not all coming from Gryffindor Tower. James lends Sirius the cloak. Sirius waits invisibly outside Gryffindor Tower till the Fat Lady leaves on one of her night time visits. He gives James the signal with the mirror, and James goes through the portrait hole with the Fat Lady none the wiser. Peter, as a rat, has the run of the castle. Mischief managed. Pippin From bigbish13 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 13:39:59 2003 From: bigbish13 at yahoo.com (bigbish13) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:39:59 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a happy couple? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82678 In message 82602 Lady of the pensieve wrote: >Since Goblet of Fire I got an impression of a Potter couple who could have been a little bit cooled of in love things. The scene when Harry?s parents shadows came out of Voldemorts wand seems to me they have been far away from each other. I got this impression a long time before the Order of Phoenix was released. Then I read the discription of the photo Moody showed Harry I was perplexed when I read it was Pettigrew who sat between Lily and James. Text: "His mother and father were beaming up at him, sitting on either side of a small, watery-eyed man ......" The Woes Of Mrs Weasley page 158, UK edition. We can well assume Harry`s parents had been very young when they got married and the couple on the pic were still very young people. We know they had been very much in love ?! But what is the reason for a young and loving couple don?t sitting together on a photography, arm in arm? Ok, maybe they were up with defeating Voldemort, but this really could have been much more reason for them staying officially together as a couple! Why got Remus in book 3 surprised when Harry told him that he heard James talking to Lily? "You heard James?" It?s a strange question, isn?t it? Me, I always pictured that photo as having 2 or more rows of people, and Peter being short, would be in the front row. Most photos of this type stagger the rows so that the people in the front row would have their faces between the faces of those in the row behind. So I think Lily and James probably were standing next to one another. As for Lupin's question, I think that he is just shocked that Harry would have any memory of that (given his age at the time) for the dementors to drag to the surface. My earliest clear childhood memory is being bitten on my arm by my cousin when I was 4. Then again, I remember because it was particularly painful, so it's possible that's why Harry remembers. Bish It's what we learn after we know it all, that counts. (John Wooden) From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 17:05:43 2003 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (rolshan2000) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:05:43 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82679 A lurker weighing in to say that in several early interviews JKR left open a possibility of writing future "Harry" books after book 7... She also mentioned that Hagrid would be in all the books (of course he may not survive the end...) I am compiling for my own use a list of all of JKR predictions in interviews that have not yet come true...I am only up to beginning of 2000, but the above struck me as interesting. I also found, to my surprise, that pretty much all her predictions for the already released books were very accurate... Regards "Rolshan" From dfran at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 10 17:10:13 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:10:13 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > Now you must remember I am a firm believer in happy endings, so if I > > sound overly optimistic, bear with me. > > > > Harry - Alive. 100% certain. He is the subject of our tale. It > > would be discouraging to find that he has beaten the Dark Lord only > > to die and not see the WW out of danger and face the prospect of > > personal happiness. > > > \SNIP of list of character resolutions > > > Voldemort - 100% dead. All great fantasy saga's end with the death > > of the Dark Wizard. > > > > D > > Does anyone think that Peter will redeem himself? I think it may be > possible and perhaps one of the happier aspects of the resolution of > the matter. Of course should he redeem himself, he'll have to die in > his efforts to act in a courageous and honorable way. Maybe I'm too > optimistic... > Jennifer DeeDee here Peter does owe Harry a life debt. Every time I consider this I keep rerunning the graveyard scene from GOF and wonder if Peter knew Harry had been bitten by that spider? It did seem that Peter bound Harry by hand not with magic.(strange) Was Harry's blood poisoned? It did seem he experienced more than a bite but rather a poisonous bite in the maze and also seemed so when Fawke's tears healed Harry in DD's office. Will this affect the effectiveness of Harry's blood in Voldemort's "rebirth". If it does affect Voldemorts rebirth/powers in some way will this be a "repayment" of the life debt owed to Harry? (If the poisoned blood gives Harry an edge over Voldemort.) DeeDee From wgouine1 at mac.com Fri Oct 10 17:38:21 2003 From: wgouine1 at mac.com (wendy) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:38:21 -0000 Subject: more neville thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82681 Really a revelation/confirmation of earlier threads. I Just realized that the first time Harry does wandless magic is to save Neville's rembrall . see see...Neville is narratively much more important than we have been led to believe!!! It is vital that NEVIL REMEMBERS! Rowling told us right away...now what is it that N. needs to remember? valete! From bumchum22 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 10 17:44:23 2003 From: bumchum22 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sharada?=) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:44:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) Message-ID: <20031010174423.1471.qmail@web86001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82682 Golly> Rita was not out to hurt people. She just didn't care. She was out to sell papers. Articles about Harry sells papers and since his real story was boring, she spiced it up. Salit> Instead she looked for dirt. The first thing we find about her, from her Quick Quotes Quill is that her goal as a journalist is blowing people's reputation - not accounting to the public what really happens in the world. Fred> I would not like to be friends with someone like a Rita Skitter, but at least she did not PERSONALLY try to KILL anyone, just humiliate them. There is a difference between being "HORRIBLE" and UNKIND. Now Sharada> This has been a topic of speculation for a while and I see here that Fred did get my feelings about Umbridge and Rita. They are both really not nice people. But they also do not fall into the same category. Rita : She is a foul mouthed, selfish, mean lousy person. There is no reason for her to be that way, no excuse. Even the damn excuse of selling stories. Yeah! they did sell. But she didnt do it only for that. She is basically a bad person and enjoys being bad. Umbridge: On the other hand, this female is evil, power hungry, sadistic and cruel. Also should had she a very very very bad. She does all this because she is power hungry. She want to hold the reins and pull the brakes. She wants to control every thing and everyone. She is bad in her own way. Puttin gthese two people together would mean disaster to the world. I have one other feeling....We haven't sen the full evilness of Rita. She may be as mean as Umbridge, just that we dont know to equal depths about the two to come to a conclusion. IMO Umbridge is a step more evil that Rita, but Rita can be motivated(provoked) to excell Umbridge. Sharada(Loves Harry Potter and Fantazises that World...I Want to be a Witch) ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk From screaming_veela at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 19:33:27 2003 From: screaming_veela at yahoo.com (lauralexis) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) Message-ID: <20031010193327.65512.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82683 Iggy McSnurd wrote: Remember: Hagrid is quoted as saying that there wasn't a witch or wizard that went bad that wasn't in Slytherin. now lauralexis: Yes, but when he said this didn?t the majority of the WW think that Sirius was the betrayer? Iggy: Also, from almost word one that we hear about him, he always hung out with people stronger than himself in order both to feel important, and to protect himself. Something that's decidedly a Slytherin thing to do, IMHO. now lauralexis: But why would Peter, a Slytherin, even be hanging out with the other three? If Harry?s class is any indication, the animosity between Gryffindor and Slytherin is deep, and almost certainly goes back to when Slytherin himself left the school. It would seem odd for Peter to go against tradition (for lack of a better word), considering that he?s portrayed as a follower ? one would expect him to follow his House. He doesn?t seem to have enough backbone to make the conscious choice to defy the whole of it. I think he could still be in Hufflepuff ? they seem to get on with Gryffindors quite well, generally ? but I think it?s more likely that he was in Gryffindor, like the other three. Which would be kind of boring and flat. Inlighten us, JK! -lauralexis --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ChaseWildstar at charter.net Fri Oct 10 19:35:47 2003 From: ChaseWildstar at charter.net (ChaseWildstar) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:35:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wild Speculation for a Unified Theory References: Message-ID: <002801c38f65$b428d6b0$6401a8c0@mac> No: HPFGUIDX 82684 From: davidseppi After much pondering over Dumbledores' proverbial "look of triumph" at the end of GOF. Logically, one thinks that Harry's blood provides some weakness that will ultimately bring about LV's downfall. Suppose now, that rather than weakness, the blood brings power over Harry as LV thinks. Taking the logic one step further, what if it is Neville who is the "promised one?" Would Harry's blood, while strengthening LV against Harry, provide a weakness that could possibly be exploited by Neville later on thus motivating the *look of triumph*? The idea doesn't really sit well with me, but suppose Harry's purpose is mearly to keep LV occupied while Neville will ultimately doom LV much like Frodo's Golem to The Dark Lord. Humm. Ive wondered the same thing.. but then something else poped up.. Harry is a boy, and as such is growing. Hes not an adult male.. what if that makes a differance in the "blood" that wormtail took from harry, and used to bring back Riddle? Not only would that make Riddle Human again, but maybe more human than he had intended, thus, he could be defeated. Remember what they said about Riddle before? About there not being anything human left in him? Now he has the humanity and the weakness's again, including the weakness of youth! "Chase Wildstar" Save Goblet of Fire! www.savegof.com Sign the petition. WB wants to make it into a 2 1/2 hour 'movie', if you could call it that! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Yahtzee63 at aol.com Fri Oct 10 19:35:55 2003 From: Yahtzee63 at aol.com (Yahtzee63 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:35:55 -0400 Subject: To Jeff (Was: Lily and James, a happy couple?) Message-ID: <2319792D.6D70E34A.02A5D73B@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82685 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: >> > Jeff said: > Ah, but did he do it on his own, of because Lily made him? If they > were falling in love at this point, James could've done it out of > love for her, not for anything else. If you think about it, he went > against his best friend to save a common enemy. Only a whipped male > would dare go against his best friend. :) I've seen this in too many > married freinds, and it's just part of love, I guess. > > No me: > First I would like to say this post is not about HP but a direct > response to the content of the above comment. > > I'm very disturbed by your use of the term "Only a whipped male would > dare go against his best friend" I would like to know what exactly > you mean by that! > Jeff: If you took the time to read, you'd see that my comment was me being cheeky. :) But it does happen where a man thinks with something other than his brain, and does things he'd never do otherwise in order to gain the "prize" the other brain wants. This could be what James was doing. Its normal behavoir and has happened for all of time as much as we can tell.<< Though I have but one brain, I will weigh in. Let's stick to the HP side of things, as Jeff's view of human relationships, in particular the mental and moral capacity of the human male, is both profoundly depressing and OT: This version of events is operating on the assumption that (a) James saved Snape not of his own accord, but because somebody else urged him to, (b) that this other person was Lily, and (c) that James only did this because he wanted to get in Lily's pants. None of this is in the text or even suggested in the text. It's completely made-up, and though it is one plausible version of events, it's far from the only one or even the most likely one. Sirius says that James changed. Jeff says that Sirius might be lying; I consider that unlikely. The few solid facts that we do have about about James (that he was a trusted member of the Order of the Phoenix, that he risked his life repeatedly to fight Voldemort) suggest that he was a principled person. I also doubt whether the incident in "Snape's Worst Memory" should be construed as evidence that an unchanged James would be the sort of person who wanted Snape to get killed anyway. James certainly gave Snape some hell, but there is a big difference between wanting to embarrass someone and wanting to see them dead, and we have yet to see a single stick of evidence in canon that would suggest James was ever the kind of person who would rather see somebody he liked die. (For that matter, it's repeatedly suggested that Sirius did not fully comprehend the seriousness of his actions -- he thought Snape would get scared, not killed, and was guilty of misunderstanding the risk, not coldbloodedly plotting homicide.) It's equally possible that Lily knew nothing of the Shrieking Shack incident and that James went to save Snape of his own accord. Certainly, Marauder opinion was not all of a piece -- Remus, by all accounts, was appalled when he learned of the abortive prank. James could and probably did choose to make this move himself. >>Jeff: Agreed, but why would James suddenly want to save his mortal enemy? And at the risk of his life, for that matter? << Where are you getting "mortal enemy" from? I mean, I can think back to the kids I hated most in high school; I hated them a lot, but I never wanted to see them dead, and never in my darkest days would I have suspected that they wanted to see me dead. I would certainly have tried to help any of them were they in mortal danger. And is it likely that cocky, self-assured James, who's been risking his life every full moon for years, would suddenly suffer an attack of fear at this point? I don't think so. Voldemort is these guys' mortal enemy. So far, Snape's never been anyone's mortal enemy. Even Sirius, who despises him and swears at him throughout OOTP, lets him visit the house. There's also no proof that the relationship with Lily is what changed James. On the contrary, the suggestions in the text have been toward the idea that James matured, grew out of some of his teenage unpleasantness and THEN he became more appealling to Lily. No doubt the person he became was in large part because of his love affair with her, but the essential changes in his personality -- so far as we now know -- appear to be the normal conclusions of growing up. Yahtzee From betsymarie123 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 10 21:03:21 2003 From: betsymarie123 at hotmail.com (Betsy Corts) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:03:21 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do You Peek? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82686 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > > So, am I the only one? Did anyone else get their book out of the > > wrapper and immediately look for the death scene? HedwigsTalons: >I didn't peek, but I didn't want to hear ANYTHING!! from newspaper, >TV or radio news, or the kids I work with, so I read it all in one >stretch on the first day it came out. (Yeah for home delivery on the >release date!) I watched the Charlie Rose show that came out at >Midnight the day OOTP was released, and when he read a portion of the >book I muted it!! :0) > >I like to be surprised, and have some theoriesof my own(who doesn't :- >)!), so want to see if they pan out or what JKR's great plot does. Betsy here: I have to admit that I didn't peek at all. But I did read the book as fast as I could just to reach the end quickly. So that way nobody would spoil it for me. I didn't read anything, except the book. But for that, I didn't enjoy it as the other ones. Now, I'm starting to read the book (for the third time), just in case I missed something important. Betsy _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 11 00:02:14 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:02:14 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: [Tonks as the betrayer] > I agree with that profile of her, but just because she seems > happy, doesn't mean that the idea of more power or money won't appeal > to her. Even the most strong of character can be persuaded. Peter > wasn't really that large of a character in the books since he was a > rat for most of them. ;) Peter was in the story since the beginning - he was there in every single book, except OoP. In PoA he played a very pivotal role, not just for being the cause of Sirius' escape, but also in the relationship between Ron and Hermione. There is enough canon to expect him to be central to the plot in the coming two books as well. Peter was perfectly situated to be the betrayer - the weakling that no one thinks twice of. Entrusted with one of the most important secrets in WW because he is considered so above suspicion. Even DD does not suspect him at all (note the same goes for Snape...). Tonks is a delightfull person, but she is too young and inexperienced, and completely unrelated to the main characters, to play any pivotal role. I think her importance to the story (other than to provide comic relief, a-la the twins :-)) is that she is something of a role model to Harry. Half blood, a freshly minted auror and is a lot closer in age to the kids than all the other middle aged and above order members. > Fair enough. I don't trust Snape in the least. When DD buys the > farm, Snape will have lots to think of. He is very loyal to the Order > and while I can't really state that I know his mind beyond a > reasonable doubt, I'm very much on the fence on him. I don't see any indication that Snape is loyal to the order. He is loyal to Dumbledore. I don't think DD's trust in him is misplaced, in that I don't believe he'll betray the order while DD lives. It is after DD dies and Voldemort's triumph seems assured that Snape will be put to the test. Will his old DE oath, mortal fear of Voldemort and hatred of anything Potter prevail over whatever it is that binds him to the deceased headmaster? I don't know, but I am sure how that question is answered by JKR will make for a fascinating read! > DD seems to know > a man's heart and I *think* he'd know Snape's true nature after all > these years to trust him as he has. DD is not infallible. He did not suspect Wormtail, and he completely misjudged both Harry's and Sirius' natures in OoP (keeping the first in the dark, and the second in a virtual prison). He assigned Snape the task of teaching Occlumency to Harry and by his own admission did not well consider the effect of their personal relationship and histories on the lessons. I am not sure if he considered the impact of his own death on his followers. > He's not off my list of suspects by any means, but I'm just stating > that there are others to consider. Nor did I say that he is the only possible candidate, only that he seems to me the most compelling for the role. Of course, JKR has surprised me many times in the past, so who knows... > I can see your point. I just wondered what James' motives were. > Was it to impress Lily? Did he think that this prank, out of all the > ones they've done, was a bit too much? Why not consider that he simply grew up? I have 5 and 15 year old sons and I see all the time how behaviours that frustrate me to no end suddenly go away as the kids mature. We have testimony from many trusted adults throughout the story what a great person James Potter was when he was older. It had to start somewhere... > because had James had a change of heart and meant to be galliant and > all that, Snape would've had a slightly better opinion of him, which > apparently he doesn't and he even carries his hate on to the next > generation of potters. Snape is a jealous vindictive person. As such his hatred of James could even intensify as a result of owing a life debt to him. Human nature... As for his feelings wrt Harry, I am firmly in the camp of Snape-loved- Lily-that's-why-he-turned... Seeing the eyes of the woman he loved in the face of the man he hated most of all is enough to explain his attitude (both the protective and the hostile behaviour he displays). Salit From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Oct 10 23:46:17 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:46:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Army = House Elves References: <20031010060617.47256.qmail@web60106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F8744C9.302@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82688 Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > > Dumbledore's Army will turn out to be a loyal group of Hogwart's house > elves. I suspect they may receive some sort of "uniform" (ie:clothes!) > in recognition of their new status as (free) members of the school staff > (ie: they are "asked" to stay/work/be paid vs. "enslavement"). Elves are > powerfully magical, with a natural (wandless!) ability that even wizards > are fearful of (see Malfoy, Sr.). Therefore, under the Direction of > Dumbledore, they would be a formidable (and doubtless a defensive) > weapon in the Order's arsenal. > One problem with this. The elves don't WANT to be freed. Its clear they find the very idea of being 'free' nearly obscene. They look disapprovingly at Dobby and pityingly at Winky. Dobby even has to lower his voice when talking about his 'freedom' around the other elves. So with this being the case, being freed would be seen as a punishment, not a reward. Clearly people are thinking the house elves think like humans. They are not humans and simply don't have the same mindset as a human. I suppose they feel 'protected' by their families they serve and have no interest in fending for themselves in the 'wild'. Hermione sees them in the same way animal rights activist see pets.. As slaves. So.. they are slaves, but like most pets, they are happy with this and don't want to be liberated. Dobby is an exception to the rule, likely due to how badly abused he was by the Malfoy's. He would clearly have been better off 'in the wild' then being abused all the time. Most other elves may not be abused. Kreacher clearly is not abused, yet he is evil and twisted, blindly loyal to his 'evil' previous masters. Perhaps he was such a good and valuable house elf to Sirius's mother, that he was nearly pampered as far as house elves go. This might lead to him feeling Mrs Black was worthy of loyalty even after death. Sirius tended to make it clear he didn't like Kreacher, though he didn't go so far as to abuse him, he didn't treat him very well either and in turn, got lousy service from the house elf. Jazmyn From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Fri Oct 10 22:17:49 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:17:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: questions about HP (Evans?) References: Message-ID: <028901c38f7c$9305bf90$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 82689 Kagome Shikon Seeker wrote: > > Well, my personal belief (and I know this is an odd one) is that > Petunia has untrained magical ability. I know this may be an odd > thing to believe, but it stems from a line in OoP: > > "Funny place," she (Tonks) said, "it's a bit ~too~ clean, d'you know > what I mean? Bit unnatural." That's a very thin argument. Obsessive cleanliness is often associated with mild mental disorders. Tonks was suggesting that Petunia might be not quite right in the head. > > That, combined with the fact that Petunia ~does~ remember what James > told Lily about the dementors and Azkaban, makes me believe that it's > quite possible that Petunia had gotten a letter for Hogwarts first > So perhaps she > had ignored it, or ripped it up, or whatever, and that had been taken > by the magical world as a refusal. Is there any canonical evidence that you can refuse an Hogwarts invitation? > > That's the only thing that to ~me~ makes sense that she would have > remembered the things her sister had said after all those years, > despite supposedly 'hating' magic and anything to do with that. Can > we say jealousy, anyone? I wouldn't trust anything Petunia says about her youth, not because I think she'd deliberately lie, but because I suspect that (like so many others) she's edited her memories to make herself look better. If she was ever thrilled by Lily's magic she wouldn't admit now, not even to herself. Nor is Lily is not Petunia's only possible source of magical information. Any of the scenarios I suggested would be highly memorable, and leave her adequately informed. If, to consider just one of the many possibilities, Petunia saw her parents killed by death eaters then was rescued by Aurors, that is not an experience she would forget. She would learn something of magic during that ordeal, though with memories that unpleasant she'd probably be reluctant to admit how she'd learnt it, or to even think about those events. > > I just think she has some minor magical abilities she uses on > occasion, and doesn't necessarily know she's doing it. And I think > she subconsciously knows about it, even though consciously she denies > it. > If she had enough to get a Hogwarts letter she'd be doing the kind of accidental magic Harry did, which would get noticed. -- Robert From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Oct 10 23:53:40 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:53:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Wand References: Message-ID: <3F874684.7000109@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82690 sylviablundell2001 wrote: > Lliannanshe wrote: > >Any opinions on what happens to the wand when a wizard dies? > > I would have expected it to be buried with him, like a Viking's gear, > but this is only an opinion. I can't support it from canon. > Sylvia > I don't think they place that much importance on their wands. Seeing as Bill gave his old one to Ron and bought a new one. They are tools.. not sacred implements. When your hammer wears out, you buy a new one. Some might have more then one hammer, different ones for different things.. Being as some wands are favored for charms and others for transfiguration, etc. Someone talented in multiple skills, who has to do certain types of difficult spells, might use different wands. Say that Bob works at Zonkos, putting charms on joke items all day. Maybe, he has a separate wand he uses for work that makes those kinds of charms easier. Like a 26 oz framing hammer works better when nailing house frames then a sledge hammer or a balpeen hammer? Jazmyn From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 11 00:16:34 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:16:34 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: <20031010174423.1471.qmail@web86001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sharada wrote: > I have one other feeling....We haven't sen the full > evilness of Rita. She may be as mean as Umbridge, just > that we dont know to equal depths about the two to > come to a conclusion. IMO Umbridge is a step more evil > that Rita, but Rita can be motivated(provoked) to > excell Umbridge. There is strong evidence that Rita for all her foulness is a much better person than Umbridge. Both women are confronted with Harry stating that he saw Voldemort comes back. Both don't believe a word of it. Umbridge sentences him to several week-long torture sessions to break him. Rita is willing (admittedly under duress, but still) to conduct a faithfull interview and by all indications - her pressing him to give her every little detail - ends up believing him. Contrast that with Umbridge's reaction to his story when it is finally in print. So while I agree with Ron that "poisonous toadstools don't change their spots", I also think that Rita is redeemable. Perhaps the year that Hermione sentenced her to think over her actions, not to mention the sensational success of the only story she wrote during that year (and probably the only article she ever wrote without adding any spoof) will help making her a better person and a better journalist. I can't see Umbridge becoming a better person however much traumatised she was at the end of OoP. Salit From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 11 00:28:23 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:28:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nianya_c" wrote: > > >> > > Thoughts: > > > 1. If it's the same wand then MOM did not destroy it and I wonder how he > > >got it back. > > > Marianne wrote: > > I think this is just going to be one of those things that are never > > explained. Sirius needed to have a wand in OoP, so he's got one. > Lliannashe wrote: > Any other opinions on what happens to the wand when a wizard dies? This is probably a tres stupide thing to ask, but why couldn't Sirius have just gone to Ollivander's and bought a new one? The wand chooses the wizard, yes, but I could see the MOM destroying his first wand upon his imprisonment. Surely a *second* wand can choose the wizard if the first is lost or destroyed? Remember Ron's in COS? He got a new one, right? If Sirius could manage to purchase a broom for Harry while on the run, he clearly had access to his Gringott's vault. Why could he not have visited Ollivander's for another wand? Usually there is a gaping hole in my HP logic, which quickly gets gently pointed out by someone else on this list. I'm sure you all will let me know if I'm wrong yet again. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 02:17:56 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:17:56 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82693 "Woodward, Deirdre" wrote: Hi all: I've been reading all these posts wondering/debating how Petunia became so knowledgeable about the wizarding world. It seems to me that she would have heard all about the wizarding world during the seven years Lily was at Hogwarts and Petunia was attending whatever school she went to. In letters, over Christmas break and during summer break, Lily would have told Petunia and the rest of her family all kinds of things about the wizarding world. Even in Petunia didn't want to hear it, some of it would have sunk in. Also, Voldemort came to power eleven years before Harry was born (PS/SS). If James and Lily were only in their early to mid 20s when Harry was born, then Voldemort was a powerful scary force while Lily was still in school -- hence, Petunia would have heard about him. Deirdre ______________________________________________________________________ Hell all, Fred Waldrop here; I have been following these threads for a while, and finally thought I'd chime in. I do not see Petunia having heard about dementors from Lily, James or any of the other school kids (before Harry came to stay at her house). As LV said in GoF, pg 651 paperback, US, "The dementors will join us... they are our natural allies..." So, if the dementors are LV "natral allies", and DD seems to think they will go over to LV as soon as he ask them to, it only seems logical that they were his followers in the "first war". And if they were LV allies, they would not have been guarding Azkaban, unless Lily and James got married and waited many years to have Harry. But if she did not hear about the dementors from her sister or brother-in-law, I can only assume that JKR has been leading us astray with lies. And I really do not want to believe that. Fred From ktd7 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 02:37:37 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:37:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves In-Reply-To: <20031010060617.47256.qmail@web60106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > > Dumbledore's Army will turn out to be a loyal group of Hogwart's house elves. I suspect they may receive some sort of "uniform" (ie:clothes!) in recognition of their new status as (free) members of the school staff (ie: they are "asked" to stay/work/be paid vs. "enslavement"). Elves are powerfully magical, with a natural (wandless!) ability that even wizards are fearful of (see Malfoy, Sr.). Therefore, under the Direction of Dumbledore, they would be a formidable (and doubtless a defensive) weapon in the Order's arsenal. > Glad to know I'm not the only one to get this idea! Especially since Dumbledore made his statement about never being gone as long as "those who remain loyal to me" are at Hogarts. Who are the most loyal to Dumbledore besides the students and faculty? The house elves! They have powerful magic, they can operate independently when they want, and they know every inch of Hogwarts. These are some powerful allies if Hogwarts itself is ever under siege. I expect to see a lot of House Elf action eventually, whether it is Hermione who organizes them or they take action on their own! Karen From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 02:44:06 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:44:06 -0000 Subject: Lily and James, a hpappy couple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82695 "jeffl1965" wrote: Who will be the Judas for this version? I'd vote for Tonks. I don't really know why, but she tends to stick out like Peter does, imho. I don't mean to offend her fans, as I *do* like her, but I just have this feeling, and I could be very wrong. "slgazit" wrote: If Peter is any guide, I'd expect the betrayer to be someone with emotional problems and low self esteem who feels the need to prove themselves better than others. Tonks is (IMO) too assertive and is such a self confident, cheerfull person that I can't see her in that role. In addition, the betrayer must be entrusted with a very important task to do real damage (e.g. secret keeper). Tonks is not. I personally put my money on Snape as the eventual betrayer (I don't think he is as of yet), especially if DD snuffs it and he'll face the choice of going back to his former master or helping a boy he detests. ______________________________________________________________________ Hello all, Fred waldrop here; As much as I really do not like Snape, I really do not see him going back. Just my opinion though, now to whom I think might be... could be... persuaded? I really hate to say it, but... here goes... Molly Weasley. The reason I say this is from what slgazit wrote, "If Peter is any guide, I'd expect the betrayer to be someone with emotional problems and low self esteem". After all, it basically takes someone with high self esteem to banish a boggart, because if you have doubts, the boggarts banishes you. Plus, seeing as LV is a master of Legilimency, if he "reads" Molly, he will see that her greatest fear is her family all getting killed, so, he offers her a deal, she helps him, he makes sure that all her children lives. And seeing as how Molly wasn't in the original OotP, she doesn't/might not compleatly understand that she can not trust LV. Yes, seems silly, but LV is good at getting people to believe him, even when what he says seems unbelievable to others. Fred From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 11 02:56:35 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:56:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > This is probably a tres stupide thing to ask, but why couldn't Sirius > have just gone to Ollivander's and bought a new one? The wand > chooses the wizard, yes, but I could see the MOM destroying his first > wand upon his imprisonment. Surely a *second* wand can choose the > wizard if the first is lost or destroyed? Remember Ron's in COS? He > got a new one, right? If Sirius could manage to purchase a broom for > Harry while on the run, he clearly had access to his Gringott's > vault. Why could he not have visited Ollivander's for another wand? > > Usually there is a gaping hole in my HP logic, which quickly gets > gently pointed out by someone else on this list. I'm sure you all > will let me know if I'm wrong yet again. ;-) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Sirius didn't buy the Firebolt in person, but by Owl Order, permitting Quality Quidditch Supplies to make a withdrawal from his account. I don't know if the same thing is possible when buying wands, it seems a more personal business. Alshain From ktd7 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 02:59:32 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:59:32 -0000 Subject: Heart = Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82697 Dumbledore says that "Heart" is what Harry has in abundance and what Voldemort lacks. I started thinking about what the word actually means, and here are some of the definitions of the word heart from the American Heritage Dictionary: *The seat of the intellect or imagination (Ravenclaw?) *Courage; resolution; fortitude (Gryffindor?) *The firmness of will or the callousness required to carry out an unpleasant task or responsibility (Slytherin?) *A person esteemed or admired as lovable, loyal, or courageous (Hufflepuff?) The Sorting Hat says that for Hogwarts to survive, the houses must be united. Is there something to the fact that the characteristics of each house can all be summed up with the same word? Heart means much more than just "love." Karen From amani at charter.net Sat Oct 11 03:23:06 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:23:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' Wand References: Message-ID: <003601c38fa6$fe9f4620$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nianya_c" wrote: > > >> > > Thoughts: > > > 1. If it's the same wand then MOM did not destroy it and I wonder how he > > >got it back. > > > Marianne wrote: > > I think this is just going to be one of those things that are never > > explained. Sirius needed to have a wand in OoP, so he's got one. > Lliannashe wrote: > Any other opinions on what happens to the wand when a wizard dies? Siriusly Snapey Susan: This is probably a tres stupide thing to ask, but why couldn't Sirius have just gone to Ollivander's and bought a new one? Taryn: There's this whole bit with Sirius being an escaped convict. I don't think he can exactly walk into Ollivander's and just go, "Hey, Ollivander, hook me up!" ^_^;; I wouldn't doubt the existence of a black market of sorts for wands, though. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 03:41:52 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 03:41:52 -0000 Subject: Filks from the Young Wizard's Songbook part 4 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82699 A few more from the venerable Young Wizard's Songbook: A Tisket, A Tasket A tisket, a tasket, A crumple-horn snorkak, it Could be imaginary, but I didn't stop to ask it. Rock-a-bye Norbert Rock-a-bye Norbert, Hagrid's delight. Kept in a wood house That he could ignite. We sent him to Charlie What else could we do? We all got detentions, But Draco did, too! Queen Umbridge is Coming Down Queen Umbridge is coming down Break her throne, smash her crown, Centaurs chase her out of town Unfair lady. ~ Constance Vigilance From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Oct 11 05:51:44 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:51:44 -0000 Subject: McGonagall, Harry and the Ginger Newts/Potions (long) In-Reply-To: <20031010172158.50670.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jane Starr wrote: > --- Kirstini wrote: > > I will never believe (unless JKR says so) that McG > would do anything as underhanded as feed trojan-horse > calming potions to her students, and anyway, if she > did they'd have the intended effect first time. She > is nothing if not efficient. > Also, potions effects generally have some relation to the ingredients, and ginger is a stimulant, and would not be appropriate with a calming potion (chamomile tea would be much more suitable). However, from GoF, we have canon of ginger being an ingredient in another potion, specifically a wit sharpening potion (Ch. 27 - Padfoot Returns, they slice up ginger root for it). Having a wit-sharpening potion baked in the biscuits makes perfect sense in context of the times she offers them, too... --Arcum From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Oct 11 06:56:24 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 06:56:24 -0000 Subject: Peter and Gollum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82701 With all this discussion of the possible future role of Peter "Wormtail" I thought I'd include my five cents' worth (we don't have 2 cent coins here!;-) ).In PoA DD tells Harry, I vaguely recall, that the time may come when he's glad he spared Wormtail, just as Gandalf in LOTR tells Frodo that Gollum may yet have a role to play and mercy is best, etc. Well, Gollum, sad character as he was, didn't die heroically saving Frodo, he died grabbing the Ring, but incidentally saving Frodo, and I think it's possible that Wormtail will do something similar. He just doesn't strike me as the sort of character who'd be redeemed - sorry. Too slimy, IMHO. Sue B From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Oct 11 07:17:59 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:17:59 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > So while I agree with Ron that "poisonous toadstools don't change > their spots", I also think that Rita is redeemable. Perhaps the year > that Hermione sentenced her to think over her actions, not to mention > the sensational success of the only story she wrote during that year > (and probably the only article she ever wrote without adding any > spoof) will help making her a better person and a better journalist. > I can't see Umbridge becoming a better person however much > traumatised she was at the end of OoP. > > Salit Now me: Ah, but RS quite probably believed, like most journalists of her type, that she was protecting "the people's right to know." And, of course,her right to make a living, as when she snaps that the Prophet exists to sell itself. BTW, if I were Rita Skeeter, I'd be furious about the fact that Mr Lovegood had made a lot of money out of an article that I had worked hard on and for which I hadn't been paid. I suppose there isn't a copyright law in the WW? Sue B From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Oct 11 07:27:51 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:27:51 -0000 Subject: Peter and Gollum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > With all this discussion of the possible future role of Peter > "Wormtail" I thought I'd include my five cents' worth (we don't have > 2 cent coins here!;-) ).In PoA DD tells Harry, I vaguely recall, that > the time may come when he's glad he spared Wormtail, just as Gandalf > in LOTR tells Frodo that Gollum may yet have a role to play and mercy > is best, etc. Well, Gollum, sad character as he was, didn't die > heroically saving Frodo, he died grabbing the Ring, but incidentally > saving Frodo, and I think it's possible that Wormtail will do > something similar. He just doesn't strike me as the sort of character > who'd be redeemed - sorry. Too slimy, IMHO. Sue B Gollum dies because he is claimed by his unbreakable oath to serve Frodo. He swore by the ring to protect and serve Frodo. He betrayed that oath by leading Frodo and Sam into Shelob's lair. Oaths are powerful things in Tolkein's world (which was based on Norse, Celt legend to some extent). On the ascent of Mt Doom, Gollum attacks Frodo and Frodo prophecises that he (Gollum) will be cast into the fire if he attacks him again. When this happens, the oath claims him. The concept is that "oft evil shall evil mar" - also from somewhere in LOTR. I was going to post that there was of yet no oath dynamic in the case of Wormtail. But there is - he broke faith as keeper of the Potters' fidelius charm. There is also the fact that he owes Harry a life debt - and this is a concept that has been hugely stressed by JKR in the books. I'd be glad to see Peter's situation more developed in some future part of the story. What are his real feelings towards Voldemort? Fear, yes. Loathing -I strongly suspect so. Is he there out of some kind of guilt trip - he had 13 years to think over his betrayal. Then he rejoined Voldemort and what does he get - certainly not all "beer and skittles" as we say in the UK. From what we see of this relationship in GoF - I'd say the pay is crap and the fringe benefits crappier. Poor Peter - all the way to Albania in rat form, all that running around, doing all the real work, sacrificing a hand - and what thanks does he get - It's young Crouch who's the faithful servant. I'd watch Peter very closely. He's a guy who really knows how to hold a grudge. Was his betrayal of the Potters motivated by grudge? There's just the tiniest indication that this may be so in the now notorious pensieve scene in OoP. Was his "fitting up" of Sirius part of the same grudge. He was the hanger on, James and Sirius were the two alphas. Is he starting a grudge against his master? That could indeed be pivotal. No, Wormtail is not really very nice... (Which is a nod to another similarly named character in LOTR if you know where to look) June From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sat Oct 11 09:35:17 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:35:17 -0000 Subject: OT:Re: To Jeff (Was: Lily and James, a happy couple?) In-Reply-To: <2319792D.6D70E34A.02A5D73B@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Yahtzee63 at a... wrote: > > > Jeff: > If you took the time to read, you'd see that my comment was me > being cheeky. :) But it does happen where a man thinks with something > other than his brain, and does things he'd never do otherwise in > order to gain the "prize" the other brain wants. This could be what > James was doing. Its normal behavoir and has happened for all of time > as much as we can tell.<< > > Though I have but one brain, I will weigh in. Let's stick to the HP side of things, as Jeff's view of human relationships, in particular the mental and moral capacity of the human male, is both profoundly depressing and OT: > Jeff: Reality is often depressing, unless one is on prescription medications, then it might appear to be more inviting, I would guess. > This version of events is operating on the assumption that (a) James saved Snape not of his own accord, but because somebody else urged him to, (b) that this other person was Lily, and (c) that James only did this because he wanted to get in Lily's pants. None of this is in the text or even suggested in the text. It's completely made- up, and though it is one plausible version of events, it's far from the only one or even the most likely one. > Jeff: Your theory is quite correct. However, on the other side of the coin, Jo doesn't tell us how often they bathe or use the loo, yet we can assume if they're human, then they do. Jo is also a woman, and doesn't know everything in a man's mind. I can generalize and take a stab at making such statements because of either personal experience or from what I've seen other males do, such as in the theory I suggested. Just think back to your proms or any dances. Do males make passes after these things are over? Surely most do. Males don't often like to dance. Some do, and do it well, but I'm stating what the teen- aged male does. Older teens go to get drunk as well as laid. Underaged males normally can't get the beer, but they try for the other. Am I wrong about James? Could be, but only Jo really knows his real rationale, and the rest of us can only make educated guesses based upon our own thoughts and experiences. > Sirius says that James changed. Jeff says that Sirius might be lying; I consider that unlikely. The few solid facts that we do have about about James (that he was a trusted member of the Order of the Phoenix, that he risked his life repeatedly to fight Voldemort) suggest that he was a principled person. I also doubt whether the incident in "Snape's Worst Memory" should be construed as evidence that an unchanged James would be the sort of person who wanted Snape to get killed anyway. James certainly gave Snape some hell, but there is a big difference between wanting to embarrass someone and wanting to see them dead, and we have yet to see a single stick of evidence in canon that would suggest James was ever the kind of person who would rather see somebody he liked die. > jeff: But how long was it after the pensive that the other incident occured? A few months? I'm still not convinced that after torturing Snape daily, as Draco does the trio, that one day after he might've performed another prank that suddenly he'd decide that he has to go against his best friend for a geek he hates. A person can still be a butt-head and perform important tasks well. I'm sure many of you can think of bosses who fit that description? Would James want snape dead? Maybe not, but let's not forget that we don't know what spell Snape intended to use on James, and that he started to draw his wand first. I'm guessing that James knew about what was planned much earlier, but might've changed his mind, or been asked to stop it by someone else. I'm not even sure that James really thought any real harm would come to Snape at first. Oh, but James didn't like Snape, and the feelings were mutual, and now carry on into the next generation. > (For that matter, it's repeatedly suggested that Sirius did not fully comprehend the seriousness of his actions -- he thought Snape would get scared, not killed, and was guilty of misunderstanding the risk, not coldbloodedly plotting homicide.) > Jeff: Agreed. It was only SNAPE who suggested that he was meant to be killed. Nobody else said so that I can recall. Snape exaggerated to make Black look guilty and even insane in front of the others. > It's equally possible that Lily knew nothing of the Shrieking Shack incident and that James went to save Snape of his own accord. Certainly, Marauder opinion was not all of a piece -- Remus, by all accounts, was appalled when he learned of the abortive prank. James could and probably did choose to make this move himself. > Jeff: That is also quite possible, but we don't really know, we can only speculate. I'm still not convinced that James suddenly had a change of heart like that, no more than I think when a minor becomes 18, that she/he is any different than they were the minute before the stroke of midnight. Remus is a hanger on, a bit like Peter, but more well liked, imho. I really think it was James and Sirius running the show. Remus tried to be the occasional words of wisdom,but I'm sure he was ignored a lot. > >>Jeff: > Agreed, but why would James suddenly want to save his mortal > enemy? And at the risk of his life, for that matter? << > > Where are you getting "mortal enemy" from? I mean, I can think back to the kids I hated most in high school; I hated them a lot, but I never wanted to see them dead, and never in my darkest days would I have suspected that they wanted to see me dead. I would certainly have tried to help any of them were they in mortal danger. And is it likely that cocky, self-assured James, who's been risking his life every full moon for years, would suddenly suffer an attack of fear at this point? I don't think so. > Jeff: Judging by Snape's treatment of Harry, I don't think it was *just* schooboy pranks. There is some genuine hate there. Snape is always cool, except for during the pensive scene. I think he's had plenty of time to learn how to hide his anger, and let it simmer. Also, as a teacher, he can only go so far with Harry. I'm sure that if he called Harry a little sh*t that his job would be in serious jepordy. Snape has only hinted at his true feelings, and I don't know if we'll ever know the true depth of his anger, but why should we just assume that James didn't have the same kind of feelings, but held them in check better? Fear? I don't think I mentioned fear. > Voldemort is these guys' mortal enemy. So far, Snape's never been anyone's mortal enemy. Even Sirius, who despises him and swears at him throughout OOTP, lets him visit the house. > Jeff: True, but before Voldie, there was Snape. You also have to understand that being in the order they must have some protocol to follow, and not get too heated in front of too many witnesses. And don't forget that Snape only comes there to report. He never stays to eat or visit. The house is the only really safe place they can openly discuss delicate matters, so Snape has to be allowed there, most likely at DD insistance, so give/receive updates. > There's also no proof that the relationship with Lily is what changed James. On the contrary, the suggestions in the text have been toward the idea that James matured, grew out of some of his teenage unpleasantness and THEN he became more appealling to Lily. No doubt the person he became was in large part because of his love affair with her, but the essential changes in his personality -- so far as we now know -- appear to be the normal conclusions of growing up. > > Jeff That's true, but I still don't think that James had an apithany that day and suddenly didn't want to play anymore. He would need a reason to calm down, as most males do, and it would have to be the love of Lily. I'm sure she did ask him at some point not to be a butt, and he would've complied. I don't feel its that far fetched, since we can look at some hollywood stars who did calm down after marraige and many who didn't. Jeff From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 11:04:38 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:04:38 -0000 Subject: Ginger Newts and The Prank Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82705 I'm not good at cutting and pasting and I wanted to respond to a couple of posts, so I hope this isn't too confusing. Kristini wrote about the Ginger Newts - Two points against biscuits-with-agenda:Firstly, the narrator doesn't record Harry experiencing any response to the biscuits. There isn't even a noticeably calmer response flagged up, and as he boils over again a minute later, I would say that the first biscuit hadn't been particularly successful. JKR, much as I love her, does tend to over- emphasize responses to things like this. But this passage is utterly devoid of description of sensual experience.Secondly - and my original objection - it is utterly out of character. The same person who runs across a lawn to defend Hagrid from an unfair attack resorts to underhand tactics to manipulate her students? It doesn't make sense.So why on earth include the Ginger newts at all? My thoughts - I agree with you, Kristini. This would be totally out of character for McGonnagall. When the fake Moody turned Malfoy into a ferret, she told him they do not use transfiguration as a punishment for the students. They give detentions; make them write lines, etc. There is no way that McGonnagall would use any form of magic to punish or calm a student. The Ginger Newts are probably a favorite snack of hers as she keeps them in a tin on her desk. I have a particular fondness for chocolate, and I keep a bag of sugarless chocolate mints at my desk at work. I often share them with others who are upset or just visiting. Jeff wrote about the prank ? Jeff: I can see your point. I just wondered what James' motives were. Was it to impress Lily? Did he think that this prank, out of all the ones they've done, was a bit too much? Somehow I doubt it, simply because had James had a change of heart and meant to be gallant and all that, Snape would've had a slightly better opinion of him, which apparently he doesn't and he even carries his hate on to the next generation of potters. If he lives, will he hate Harry's offspring? Possibly. Snape didn't trust James nor appreciate what he did, so that leads me to believe that James didn't stay all that nice very long. It remains to be seen, but we'll have to wait until a later date to be certain. Now my thoughts ? I do not think that James saved Snape because of Lily. Here's what I think happened. James and Snape hated each other right from the beginning. Now why that happened is anyone's guess. But the things that James did to Snape were not life threatening. It is implied that they used jinxes on each other, much the same way that Harry and Draco do. Of the marauders, it is Sirius who is more of the risk taker. James encouraged them all to become animagi to be with Lupin as a friend. I can certainly see Sirius encouraging them to leave the Shrieking Shack to take their adventures further. I think Sirius ran into Snape and told him to follow the secret passage under the Whomping Willow without thinking of the consequences. Then he probably ran to James and told him what was happening thinking James would appreciate the joke. I can see James telling Sirius off for that and then running to catch Snape before anything serious happened. Of course Snape would not believe that James rescued him for purely unselfish reasons. He probably thought James was in on the joke and at the last moment "chickened out". Of course all this is pure speculation on my part. I do wish we knew the publication date of the next book! D From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Sat Oct 11 11:30:09 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:30:09 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82706 Jazmyn wrote: <>I don't think they place that much importance on their wands. Seeing as Bill gave his old one to Ron and bought a new one. They are tools.. not sacred implements <> Lliannanshe: Ollivander places a great deal of importance on wand. "The wand chooses the wizard" and such. The Ministry will destroy a wizard's wand for criminal offenses. ie. Hagrid and Harry OOP. They may be "tools and not sacred" but they are an intimate part of a wizard's existence. Sylvia wrote: <>I would have expected it to be buried with him, like a Viking's gear, <> Lliannanshe: While this is possible . . . There is canon that some wands are handed down. ie. Bill / Ron and Mr. Longbottom / Neville But I just noticed that neither Bill nor Mr. Longbottom is actually dead. Lliannanshe From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sat Oct 11 12:17:39 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:17:39 -0000 Subject: Peter and Gollum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > SNIPPAGE> > I'd be glad to see Peter's situation more developed in some future > part of the story. What are his real feelings towards Voldemort? > Fear, yes. Loathing -I strongly suspect so. Is he there out of > some kind of guilt trip - he had 13 years to think over his > betrayal. Then he rejoined Voldemort and what does he get - > certainly not all "beer and skittles" as we say in the UK. From > what we see of this relationship in GoF - I'd say the pay is crap > and the fringe benefits crappier. Poor Peter - all the way to > Albania in rat form, all that running around, doing all the real > work, sacrificing a hand - and what thanks does he get - It's young > Crouch who's the faithful servant. >(More brutal snippage) June You bring up two points that I want to call to the list's attention: 1) What the heck is the draw of serving Lord Voldemort? He's a horrible leader, and as you say pay and benefits are lousy. One way or the other, most of his followers end up on the wrong end of things or dead. What's his attraction? We've compared the WW to the Muggle World at the beginning of the Nazi regime and I just don't think LV compares to Hitler. Wasn't Hitler compelling on some hideous and unspeakable level? Didn't he couch his evil in ways that were at least palatable to the German people? Lord Voldemort is obviously and proudly out for himself. "Rewards" I have seen consist of a prosthetic hand. I don't call a silver hand an appropriate and equitable reward for the loss of your real one. Look at Bella, now that she botched the prophecy grab. She can only look forward to punishment, no reward at all for all her troubles. So, someone tell, me, what's the Dark Lord got that I'm not seeing? 2)This is a total non-sequitor, but I do not think that Barty Crouch Jr. was the "faithful servant" at Hogwarts. That's a trick I beleive. Look at Bella, she's convinced she's his most faithful servant. LV is such a lying, conniving con artist, who knows how many Death Eaters think they are his "most faithful servant." This has been roaming around in my brain for a while. Someone show me where I am going off the path with this and I'll be glad to put this snarky little thought to rest. Jennifer > > From arianaseibel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 01:20:20 2003 From: arianaseibel at yahoo.com (Ariana Seibel) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:20:20 -0000 Subject: Coifs and Alignment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82708 Serena said: And characters with more managed hair are more questionable if not evil (Lockhart, Umbridge, all the Malfoys). Ariana says: Uh-Oh, Evil!McGonagall with her perfect bun... From abush at maine.rr.com Sat Oct 11 01:40:20 2003 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:40:20 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82709 From: "slgazit" "I personally put my money on Snape as the eventual betrayer (I don't think he is as of yet), especially if DD snuffs it and he'll face the choice of going back to his former master or helping a boy he detests. He just has the right kind of conflicted personality to fit the role perfectly, and I find it hard to believe that JKR will choose a very minor character for such an important role. No, the betrayer must be one of the main characters, and Snape fits the bill perfectly..." now me: I cannot find the quote right now, but in JKR's appearance at the Royal Albert Hall in June, where she is interviewed by Stephen Fry, Fry mentions Snape's good/bad character, and she replies in essence that Severus Snape is definitely not a nice person and not to be trusted, so I must agree that you are right about him (although I'm half in love with him due to his being played by Alan Rickman, so I do so want him to be good! kylie From dfran at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 11 02:03:39 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:03:39 -0000 Subject: Wild Speculation for a Unified Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davidseppi" wrote: > After much pondering over Dumbledores' proverbial "look of triumph" > at the end of GOF. Logically, one thinks that Harry's blood provides > some weakness that will ultimately bring about LV's downfall. > Suppose now, that rather than weakness, the blood brings power over > Harry as LV thinks. Taking the logic one step further, what if it is \ DeeDee: Wasn't Harry's blood poisoned by the spider bite?!? I also wonder if Harry giving blood to Voldemort would make Voldemort more suseptible to Legumency by Harry...and perhaps even DD, Snape and all those who have been reading Harry's mind all this time. DeeDee From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 04:39:27 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 04:39:27 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but I was wondering if > we missed something important due to Hermione's uncharacteristic > arrogance. Referring to the locked door in the Department of > Mysteries, Luna says "You know what could be in there?" Hermione > brushes this aside with the sotto voce comment to Neville "Something > blibbering, no doubt" and we never get to hear what Luna thought > could be behind the door. > Sylvia (who really likes Luna and hopes she will be the one to put > Harry together again) I have always thought that bit was more about Hermione's snappishness with Luna. Hermione has no patience for Luna (for obvious reasons), but she also seems a bit threatened by her. I don't think Hermione is anti-female, but I think she feels threatened by how interesting Luna is. Usually, Hermione is pretty circumspect about how she treats other people. Luna is an exception. From kathryn-jones at comcast.net Sat Oct 11 10:21:24 2003 From: kathryn-jones at comcast.net (jmjklj) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:21:24 -0000 Subject: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82712 Pippin argues: "None of the prefects, in any house, Gryffindor included, were able to put a stop to the mischief making in the first four years. Wouldn't Dumbledore decide that what he needs in a fifth year prefect is somebody who's actually in the group? As for the werewolf outings, which began *after* Lupin was made prefect, I think it would have been easier to cover for their absences if they were coming from different Houses. After all, an entirely empty dormitory is bound to attract attention from somebody, whereas one empty curtained bed in each of three rooms in different Houses (Lupin's absence is authorized) wouldn't be so easily remarked. The other students would know, in fact Snape spies on them a lot. But none of them want their House to lose points, so they keep quiet. It's *easier* for them to get out if they're not all coming from Gryffindor Tower. James lends Sirius the cloakm Sirius waits invisibly outside Gryffindor Tower till the Fat Lady leaves on one of her night time visits. He gives James the signal with the mirror, and James goes through the portrait hole with the Fat Lady none the wiser. Peter, as a rat, has the run of the castle. Mischief managed." Kathryn adds: Also, if Sirius is a Slytherin it adds to the dynamics of the Snape/Sirius relationship. It would have been *Sirius'* empty bed that Snape would find, if he was spying. (which I can certainly see!) Snape probably has a *multitude* of reasons to hate Sirius, but couldn't another one be a "defection" from *their* house? I really like the idea of MWPP in all four houses and I never would have come up with it on my own. I'm with you on this. -Kathryn (who often is humbled by many ideas put forth on this list) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Oct 11 12:51:22 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:51:22 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <1065722706.184.54582.w78@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the > HPforGrownups group: > > Sirius Black's Death Poll > o do something substantially different. (Please post your answer on HPFGU, as we could not think of any other possibilities and are curious). > > He is exposed as an agent of Voldemort. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Oct 11 13:11:27 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:11:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves In-Reply-To: <20031010060617.47256.qmail@web60106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > > Dumbledore's Army will turn out to be a loyal group of Hogwart's house elves. No, I don't think so. But they may well provide the packed lunch at half-time in the final battle. Kneasy From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 10 12:56:34 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:56:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coifs and Alignment References: Message-ID: <003401c38f2e$ac762f80$beec79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82715 > wrote: > In general characters with messy or unkempt hair are good and > characters with more managed hair are more questionable if not evil. > > Nianya: > Interesting, but disturbing thought. That would mean of course that > Snape is very good and Lupin might be questionable (doesn't he have > fairly managed, but graying hair). Since Lupin is one of my favorite > characters still alive I'm distressed at the thought. > > Any other comparisons?? > Lessee... Notably unkempt or "frizzy" hair: Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, Sirius, Snapes, Sprout, Dumbledore, Ron, Molly Weasley, Professor Umbridge, Argus Filch, Firenze, Luna Lovegood, Rita Skeeter (in OotP), Madame Hooch, Bellatrix Lestrange (in OotP), Tonks. Notably "tamed" hair: Minerva McGonagall & Madame Maxime (both wore their hair in tight buns most of the time), the Dursleys, Percy, Barty Crouch Sr., Cornelius Fudge, the Malfoys, Rita Skeeter (in GoF), Golderoy Lockhart, Bellatrix Lestrange (in GoF, and her pictures), Professor Quirrel (I count wearing a turban all the time as having tamed hair... not to mention Voldemort would want a regular shave so he could see when the turban was off. *grin*), Sir Nicholas de Mimsy Porpington, Kingsley Shacklebolt (shaving your head is a great way to control your hair. Trust me, I do it myself...) That's all I can think of for now. (Unless you count that half the people in the DA seem to have unkempt hair, and the other half seem to be people with tidy hair.) Looks pretty much like a mix there. And if you notice, some people change how they look according to what's happened to them. I'll agree that there's a slight trend, but nothing that would look decisive to me. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "I saw Elvis making crop circles." -- ABS FIRECAT From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 10 13:03:50 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:03:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New poll for HPforGrownups References: <008001c38f64$2c8c4e40$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: <003c01c38f2e$f5a05960$beec79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82716 > Hagrid: > BTW, if Sirius was the godfather, was there a godmother ??? > > Taryn: > Not necessarily. I've known people who've had a godfather and a godmother (me), one godfather, one godmother, and two godfathers, even. (I'm sure there are people with two godmothers, just don't know anyone I'm aware of off the top of my head.) So it's possible, but not necessary. > Iggy: Or, the godmother could have been Petunia. This would be one reason that helps explain why she took in Harry despite her anger with Lilly. Just another two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Oct 11 13:43:02 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:43:02 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyliemckenzie1225" wrote: > From: "slgazit" > "I personally put my money on Snape as the eventual betrayer (I don't > think he is as of yet), especially if DD snuffs it and he'll face the > choice of going back to his former master or helping a boy he > detests. He just has the right kind of conflicted personality to fit > the role perfectly, and I find it hard to believe that JKR will > choose a very minor character for such an important role. No, the > betrayer must be one of the main characters, and Snape fits the bill > perfectly..." > > now me: > I cannot find the quote right now, but in JKR's appearance at the > Royal Albert Hall in June, where she is interviewed by Stephen Fry, > Fry mentions Snape's good/bad character, and she replies in essence > that Severus Snape is definitely not a nice person and not to be > trusted, so I must agree that you are right about him (although I'm > half in love with him due to his being played by Alan Rickman, so I > do so want him to be good! > kylie I really don't want to nitpick, but this is not exactly what JKR said and she normally uses her words very carefully. She said that we shouldn't feel to sorry for him and that he is worth to keep an eye on him. She didn't say that he is not to be trusted (that said, I don't think she would give such an important information, if Snape really isn't trustworthy). My personal opinion is, that, if there is a spy in the Order, it won't be Snape. Mainly because he is still a highly suspicious character, and it would IMO be really disappointing, if he turns out to be evil. It would be much more interesting, if someone, who is supposed to be nice, is the spy. Hickengruendler From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Oct 11 14:00:52 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:00:52 -0000 Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Now you must remember I am a firm believer in happy endings, so if I > sound overly optimistic, bear with me. > >> > Dumbledore - I think he will sacrifice himself for Harry and the WW. > It should be a great death scene, perhaps the pivotal point for Harry > destroying Voldemort. > I've been having thoughts about DD and his fate. Having a reputation of possessing a sadistic and twisted nature, you will not be surprised that this, IMO, will be a shocker. I was trawling through some back posts a few days ago trying to trace a thread, when I came across an old post of mine that I'd totally forgotten about. It was my response to query from Atropos G asking for suggestions on how posters envisioned D's death. I replied that Harry would kill him. (74099) The reasoning was slim, verging on emaciated - James (his father) had died because Harry existed, Sirius (his substitute father) had died because Harry refuses to listen and that it was now DD's (another father figure) turn in the barrel and to cop it in the neck through some action of Harry's. But, thanks to my addiction to theorising, I now have a much more realistic motive. You'll remember that throughout OoP Harry is in an explosive frame of mind. Everybody is against him; he is angry and impulsive. Recall that he has not continued with the Occlumency lessons. He is still vulnerable. Recall also that Voldy, through mental invasion has repeatedly been urging him to attack DD. Add to this my (tiresomely repeated) theory that the Prophecy forecast the deaths of James and Lily, DD knew this and did nothing. How will Harry feel about this? DD carries at least some responsibility for the deaths of his parents. Include the realisation that, so far as DD is concerned, Harry is starting to think that he is merely Tool!Harry, a weapon forged to defeat Voldemort. Combine all that lot; stir well and stand well back. All it will need is one moment of frustration, rage or bloody-mindedness and Harry will do Voldy's work for him; it can be the result of action of omission or comission. Of course, he will be contrite afterwards. Swear vengence on Voldy et al, rejoin the path of righteousness etc. But what a lovely BANG to end book 6. Kneasy From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 14:21:39 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:21:39 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <003c01c38f2e$f5a05960$beec79a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > Iggy: > > Or, the godmother could have been Petunia. This would be one reason that > helps explain why she took in Harry despite her anger with Lilly. > > > Just another two centaurs worth. > > > Iggy McSnurd > the Prankster I posted this on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum - Speaking about Harry and Petunia's relationship in book 6: Harry is going to press Petunia for more info about his mom. She may not be that forthcoming, but I think we will see Harry glean a little more info regarding his maternal family. When you look at the stories, it is always Vernon and Dudley who are the meanest to Harry. Sure, Petunia is not exactly nice to him. But when she punishes him, she makes him do chores, not physical or mental abuse. I know I am probably wrong, JKR has her own agenda, but this is what I think about Petunia. Yes, she is remarkably jealous of Lily (by the way, who is older?) I get the impression that Lily got the brains and beauty in the family. So, already, before she found out she was a witch, there was sibling rivalry. But I don't think it was as extreme as it is now. Once Lily's abilities were discovered, Petunia's resentment began to grow. But (and this is a big one) I don't think it was so great as to cause the rift between them as yet. I am sure that James was introduced to the family after Lily and he became an item. So again, Lily got the great guy, after all James' charisma was pretty overwhelming. Again, the resentment grows. Lily and James are married. Was Petunia in the wedding party? I cannot see Lily excluding her sister. We have no canon to show that Lily was as resentful of Petunia as Petunia was of Lily. I can see Petunia in the wedding party. Perhaps not Maid of Honor, but being Lily's sister, surely she was included. ***Perhaps, Petunia is Harry's godmother? (Whoa, even as I write that I find it a little bit of a stretch.)* *** I think it is after Petunia and Vernon get together that Petunia's resentment and jealousy come to a head. Vernon is the ultimate Muggle. Now Petunia has a comrade in her resentment. She lets it flow from Vernon. Yes, Petunia finds Lily strange and unnatural, but she never says she hated her sister. She was the one who let Harry stay. Vernon would have sent him off to an orphanage. (I infer this from Aunt Marge. Seems to me she shares Vernon's opinions.) Petunia still has a very important role to play. She will be the one who keeps Harry safe during the summers despite Vernon. I think there will definately be conflict in the Dursley family. It will be fun to find out if some of what I think is true. But I won't be disappointed if I'm wrong. I fully expect to be. Let hear what you all think. D If Petunia were in the wedding party, then why didn't she recognize Sirius when he was presented on the Muggle news? Even Harry, when looking back at the pictures of his parent's wedding day, admitted to himself it would have been difficult to tell the difference between the happy, healthy Sirius and the gaunt, vampire-like appearance after twelve years in Azkaban. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 14:28:37 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:28:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: > Jazmyn wrote: > <>I don't think they place that much importance on their > wands. Seeing as Bill gave his old one to Ron and bought a new one. > They are tools.. not sacred implements <> > > Lliannanshe: > Ollivander places a great deal of importance on wand. "The wand > chooses the wizard" and such. The Ministry will destroy a wizard's > wand for criminal offenses. ie. Hagrid and Harry OOP. They may > be "tools and not sacred" but they are an intimate part of a > wizard's existence. > > Sylvia wrote: > <>I would have expected it to be buried with him, like a > Viking's gear, > <> > > Lliannanshe: > While this is possible . . . There is canon that some wands are > handed down. > ie. Bill / Ron and Mr. Longbottom / Neville > But I just noticed that neither Bill nor Mr. Longbottom is actually > dead. > Ginger: I've viewed wands to wizards kind of like instruments to musicians. I have a good keyboard at home and I practice on it, but I always have to practice wherever it is I am playing before I actually play there. It is a matter of familiarity. With more portable instruments, (from flute to tuba) a person really can get attatched. Others just play differently. I think it is that way with wands. You get the "special" one, and no other comes close. Of course there is a more magical aspect with wands. So Ron could use Charlie's (SS p. 100 US paperback)old wand, but his own would be better, once he got used to it. Same goes for Neville. Most people who choose a new instrument try out a lot before making the final purchase. A friend of mine plays in the local symphony and has been checking out new violins for a couple of years now. With wands, the compatibility is pronounced by sparks or something, so the matching up takes a lot less time. Just my thoughts, Ginger, who does not miss her old crappy keyboard at all! From sylviablundell at aol.com Sat Oct 11 15:10:53 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:10:53 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter - The background in the British Press Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82721 Geoff wrote: >The Quibbler? To those who know it, I would equate it to the Sunday Sport" Me: Except not so rude! Sylvia (who thought June's analysis was brilliant) From amani at charter.net Sat Oct 11 15:56:33 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:56:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter and Gollum References: Message-ID: <003301c39010$3edf3d80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82722 Jennifer: 1) What the heck is the draw of serving Lord Voldemort? He's a horrible leader, and as you say pay and benefits are lousy. One way or the other, most of his followers end up on the wrong end of things or dead. What's his attraction? We've compared the WW to the Muggle World at the beginning of the Nazi regime and I just don't think LV compares to Hitler. Wasn't Hitler compelling on some hideous and unspeakable level? Didn't he couch his evil in ways that were at least palatable to the German people? Lord Voldemort is obviously and proudly out for himself. "Rewards" I have seen consist of a prosthetic hand. I don't call a silver hand an appropriate and equitable reward for the loss of your real one. Look at Bella, now that she botched the prophecy grab. She can only look forward to punishment, no reward at all for all her troubles. So, someone tell, me, what's the Dark Lord got that I'm not seeing? Taryn: The parallel with Voldemort and Hitler really does stop after them being what they preached against. (Hitler at least being the opposite of his Aryan ideal of tall, blonde haired and blue eyed. His Jewish heritage is debateable.) But it's true that, although Hitler never hid his hatred of Democracy, Communism, and, most of all, Jews (Mein Kampf is an example of that, where Hitler spends most of the book discussing his plans. It was published in the 1920's, before the Nazi Party had gained power in the Reichstag.). He was a brilliant orator, which was what really gained him popularity. His speeches were almost hysterical with emotion and, in turn, his audience felt that emotion. Hitler was evil, but, unlike Voldemort, he was nationalistic. He was not power hungry for his own sake. He wanted to see Germany rise above all other countries, wanted to see the German "Master Race" rule over all others because of what he believed to be their superiority to the "lower races." He was a sick, horrible man, but in a very different way from the personally ambitious Voldemort who wants nothing but his own, personal gain. He wants power over others for the sake of having that power over others. The biggest argument you could make for some ideal of Voldmort is possibly a desire to purge the world of Muggles and Muggle-borns, I guess. But that doesn't seem nearly as evidenced as a simple desire for personal power over others. Sorry, just finished a paper on Hitler. ^_^;; Waaay too much research. As to the draw of serving Voldmort... Desire for personal power? If you're like Peter, the idea of being on the winning side? I mean, when Voldemort first held power, it really looked like the good guys were losing. It WAS a winning side. But then, of course, you've got the fanatics like Bella. It's harder to explain them with a leader like Voldemort than Hitler. Hitler like ideals and a vision that was shared by his followers, which Voldemort seems to lack. I've gotta run, so I'm not gonna try explaining now. ^_^;; ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 16:05:18 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:05:18 -0000 Subject: Being a DE (Was:Re: Peter and Gollum) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82723 susanbones2003 (Jennifer) wrote: > 1) What the heck is the draw of serving Lord Voldemort? He's a > horrible leader, and as you say pay and benefits are lousy. One way > or the other, most of his followers end up on the wrong end of things > or dead. What's his attraction? Annemehr: Right now Voldemort is struggling back after a really major hitch. But I think we have enough to go on to imagine how things were fifteen years before. In "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley" (OoP), Lupin tells her, "last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one...." On the train ride home in GoF, Draco tells Harry, "You've picked the losing side, Potter!" I think we can be confident that in the first war, Voldemort's side had the upper hand. Dumbledore's very best people, the Order of the Phoenix, were being steadily killed, you didn't know who to trust because they may have been under the Imperius Curse, the DEs had time to indulge in Mugggle killings just for fun, and finally I think the DEs had the same mindset that's illustrated by Draco's comment: Voldemort's side was the winning side. Back then, being a DE meant you had a share of Voldemort's power over others, and your side's successes meant that there was probably very little "punishment" being doled out. The DEs now are in a different position. The ones who were broken out of Azkaban are of course going to stick with V. I think they are a bit safer from punishments since they had gone to prison as loyal DEs. I do think that the DEs who were in the Graveyard are very scared, but they are more frightened of trying to leave Voldemort (which can earn you an Avada Kedavra) than they are of the possibility of messing up like Avery (Crucio is at least not normally fatal). It is likely that a small number of DEs may try to defect, but will they be succussful like Snape, or, more likely, end up like Regulus? Still, I believe you are on to something. Having a great many of your followers bound to you only by fear is a great weakness. Voldemort's hold on those DEs will only improve if his side once again gains the upper hand and Death Eating becomes fun and games and the illusion of power again. Jennifer: > 2)This is a total non-sequitor, but I do not think that Barty Crouch > Jr. was the "faithful servant" at Hogwarts. That's a trick I beleive. > Look at Bella, she's convinced she's his most faithful servant. LV is > such a lying, conniving con artist, who knows how many Death Eaters > think they are his "most faithful servant." This has been roaming > around in my brain for a while. Someone show me where I am going off > the path with this and I'll be glad to put this snarky little thought > to rest. > Jennifer Another good point! Voldemort binds his followers to him by deception as well as fear, perhaps. Another weakness, I would judge. Hmm, this invites comparing and contrasting with Dumbledore, via the various DD theories. I will leave that to those more certain of what exactly he is doing, however! ;) Annemehr who thinks *both* sides are on very shaky ground just now; anything could happen! From pip8195 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 04:44:29 2003 From: pip8195 at yahoo.com (rymon) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One. Flowers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031011044429.65995.qmail@web14802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82724 --- Katrina wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" > wrote: > > > > > Magnolia, Petunia, Beginias, Hydrangeas, Wisteria (white flowers), > > Privet (white flowers), Lilac all mentioned in Chp > 1. > > Magnolia: "Love of Nature" > > Petunia: "Humility" "Am Not Proud" > > I can't see that all of the flowers' meanings could apply to the > story. One never knows, though. > > pip8195: And, did you notice that one of the sites you listed had for "Lily" - "Keeps unwanted visitors away"?????? I thougth that was just great! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 10 13:06:05 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:06:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) References: <20031010193404.70190.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004301c38f2f$457164c0$beec79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82725 > > Iggy: > > > > I just realized something. I think we can almost > > count it as canon that > > Peter was in Slytherin. > > *snip* > > But they thought Sirius was the betrayer at that time. > > Rebecca Then that would either place Sirius in Slytherin as well, or, would render Hagrid's statement completely inaccurate. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From kathryn-jones at comcast.net Sat Oct 11 13:30:01 2003 From: kathryn-jones at comcast.net (jmjklj) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:30:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82726 Scott Santangelo wrote: "Dumbledore's Army will turn out to be a loyal group of Hogwart's house elves." Kneasy replied: "No, I don't think so. But they may well provide the packed lunch at half-time in the final battle." Now Kathryn: The house elves may not be Dumbledore's Army, but I'm betting they are going to be crucial in the battle. Such significance has been placed on the fact that you cannot apparate into/out of Hogwarts, not just by Hermione, but I believe Snape as well. (don't have the books handy) Yet, Dobby apparates in CoS in the hospital ward. We've seen powerful elf magic, and even Malfoy Sr. backs off. Also, I remember a thread months ago which was discussing which scene in the movie JKR insisted stay in. IMHO I think it was Dobby apparating. Of course you've got the whole SPEW theme and the house elf in the fountain as well. Forget the goblins, the house elves are going to be key! -Kathryn From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 10 13:29:06 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:29:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al References: Message-ID: <008d01c38f32$7bdca3a0$beec79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82727 Everyone seems to be missing something about how Petunia knows about the Dementors and such: "How d'you know that?" he asked her, astonished. Aunt Petunia looked quite appalled with herself. She glanced at Uncle Vernon in fearful apology, then lowered her hand slightly to reveal her horsy teeth. "I hear -- that awful boy -- telling *her* about them -- years ago," she said jerkily. (OotP, ch two, p. 31-32 US ed.) Case closed, so far as I'm concerned. She remembered James (who she hated, and may have also been secretly infatuated with... which may be where some of her problem stems... but I digress.) discussing it with Lilly. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Make it idiot proof, and someone will build a better idiot." -- ABS FIRECAT From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 11 17:10:49 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:10:49 -0000 Subject: Coifs and Alignment In-Reply-To: <003401c38f2e$ac762f80$beec79a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" > Lessee... > > Notably unkempt or "frizzy" hair: Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, Sirius, Snapes, > Sprout, Dumbledore, Ron, Molly Weasley, Professor Umbridge, Argus Filch, > Firenze, Luna Lovegood, Rita Skeeter (in OotP), Madame Hooch, Bellatrix > Lestrange (in OotP), Tonks. > > Notably "tamed" hair: Minerva McGonagall & Madame Maxime (both wore their > hair in tight buns most of the time), the Dursleys, Percy, Barty Crouch Sr., > Cornelius Fudge, the Malfoys, Rita Skeeter (in GoF), Golderoy Lockhart, > Bellatrix Lestrange (in GoF, and her pictures), Professor Quirrel (I count > wearing a turban all the time as having tamed hair... not to mention > Voldemort would want a regular shave so he could see when the turban was > off. *grin*), Sir Nicholas de Mimsy Porpington, Kingsley Shacklebolt > (shaving your head is a great way to control your hair. Trust me, I do it > myself...) > I'd like to know why you consider Tonks' hair to be untidy. Ever-changing I'll grant you. Hairstyles have been one of the ways tribes and subgroups distinguish themselves ever since we climbed down from the trees. I find it rather interesting how JKR tells about the personality of her characters by using their hair: Untidy hair = easy-going, can't-be-bothered person, Grey hair = wisdom, Compulsively neat hair = anal retentiveness, conformism or vanity, and so on. Kingsley's shaved head is the ultimate fighter hairstyle -- consider King David's son Absalon, who got killed when his luxuriant hair got caught in the tree branches. (One of the reasons I dislike fanfics who portray Sirius pre-1981 as the uber-Auror wunderkind with long fabulous midnight/raven/sable hair (never plain black, for some reason). Moody would probably have had a few objections, if nothing else.) Alshain From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Oct 11 17:11:42 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:11:42 -0000 Subject: James and Snape was OT:To Jeff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82729 - > But how long was it after the pensive that the other incident > occured? A few months? I'm still not convinced that after torturing Snape daily, as Draco does the trio, that one day after he might've performed another prank that suddenly he'd decide that he has to go against his best friend for a geek he hates. > Would James want snape dead? Maybe not, but let's not forget that we don't know what spell Snape intended to use on James, and that he started to draw his wand first. I'm guessing that James knew about what was planned much earlier, but might've changed his mind, or been asked to stop it by someone else.<< Harry saved Peter, who helped murder his parents, from Sirius and Lupin who were ready to kill. Harry didn't want Sirius and Lupin to become killers, despite having every reason to hate and despise Peter. Might not James have felt the same way? Being a bully doesn't mean you'd kill your victim--bullies want their victims alive so they can abuse them some more. As Quirrell says, Snape hates Harry, but he never wanted him dead. The precipitating factor for the Prank wasn't something that Snape had done, but the fear of what he could do, now that he knew where Lupin went. Snape would be watching the Willow and that would put a stop to the Marauders' werewolf walkabouts. That gives Lupin the best motive for killing Snape, but Sirius might have been persuaded or manipulated into helping him do it. Suppose James had done nothing. Snape's death would have seemed to be a horrible accident . There'd be no Snape around to say that Sirius had told him how to get into the Willow. The Hogwarts governors would want the whole thing hushed up, so in the ensuing cover-up, Sirius and Lupin might have escaped exposure. A desperate gamble, but for Lupin, who says that his friends' company was the only thing that made his transformations bearable, it might have been worth it. James didn't only save Snape, he caught him out of bounds. The Willow was forbidden because of Davy Gudgeon's eye. Snape could have been expelled if he was caught there again. Ergo, no more spying, and the Marauders' secret remained safe. Whether James deliberately waited to interfere until Snape had entered the Willow, we don't know. Pippin From o_caipora at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 17:24:23 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:24:23 -0000 Subject: Being a DE (Was:Re: Peter and Gollum) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82730 > susanbones2003 (Jennifer) wrote: > > > 1) What the heck is the draw of serving Lord Voldemort? He's a > > horrible leader, and as you say pay and benefits are lousy. One way > > or the other, most of his followers end up on the wrong end of things > > or dead. What's his attraction? There's no shortage of real-world examples. Look at the late Ida Amin. There was once a portrait in the paper of him and his goverment, five years later: half the groups had been killed by him. Yet he still had followers. Any number of tinpot dictators have similar records. What you're not seeing is the attraction of power: a blindness which speaks well of you. Some people lust for it. A professor of mine once told me that that in picking a department chairman it was important to choose someone who *did not* want the job. Even a departmental tinpot dictator can be wearing. "annemehr" wrote:> > Voldemort binds his followers to him by deception > as well as fear, perhaps. Another weakness, I would judge. Machiavelli said that "It is better to be feared than to be loved." His views may be unpleasant, but are realistic. Would you rather face the wrath of Dumbledore, if you opposed him and he wins, or face the wrath of Voldy? Being feared can be advantageous. - Caipora From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Oct 11 17:54:16 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:54:16 -0000 Subject: Peter and Gollum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > You bring up two points that I want to call to the list's attention: > > 1) What the heck is the draw of serving Lord Voldemort? He's a > horrible leader, and as you say pay and benefits are lousy. One way > or the other, most of his followers end up on the wrong end of things > or dead. What's his attraction? We've compared the WW to the Muggle > World at the beginning of the Nazi regime and I just don't think LV > compares to Hitler. Wasn't Hitler compelling on some hideous and > unspeakable level? Didn't he couch his evil in ways that were at > least palatable to the German people? Lord Voldemort is obviously and > proudly out for himself. "Rewards" I have seen consist of a > prosthetic hand. I don't call a silver hand an appropriate and > equitable reward for the loss of your real one. Look at Bella, now > that she botched the prophecy grab. She can only look forward to > punishment, no reward at all for all her troubles. So, someone tell, > me, what's the Dark Lord got that I'm not seeing? June: You get a cute mask and cloak. What more could you want? All Evil Overlords supply uniforms. Oh and you get to kill people. I think all people like Peter, Barty, Bellatrix et al would benefit from being sent an immediate hyperlink to "Peter's Evil Overlord List - or Things I'd Never Do if I became an Evil Overlord". Why oh why do EO's always treat their "faithful servants" like chicken dirt, and more to the point, why oh why do the "faithful servants" invariably put up with it (the torture, the insults, the tantrums), until their defining moment when they either pull a gun, a knife or set off the device and blow EO headquarters to smithereens. (Grima Wormtongue, Darth Vader, all the others, various Bond Villian underlings, etc) Anyone who hasn't looked at the above web site is more than welcome to email me direct for the address. Unfortunately the RL EO's of the past century have had more attractive inducements to get not just one but millions of faithful servants to follow them. I'm not going to go into just how the likes of Hitler, Stalin and Saddam have won followers or coerced people into adhering to their ideologies - because it's way off topic. Sadly, the truth of the Evil Overlord in real life is always worse than any writer of fantasy fiction could ever come up with. No fantasy writer would have the sheer audacity to come up with the likes of a Pol Pot. June From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Oct 11 18:10:40 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:10:40 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > My personal opinion is, that, if there is a spy in the Order, it > won't be Snape. Mainly because he is still a highly suspicious > character, and it would IMO be really disappointing, if he turns out to be evil. It would be much more interesting, if someone, who is supposed to be nice, is the spy. > Well said! We are looking for someone who is supposed to be nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know which one I'd pick. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 I'll be updating the theory one of these days. My assessment of ESE!Lupin's motives is out of date. Even I have trouble imagining him as a maddog killer, but what if his motive is political? He's a man with a Cause, and that's always dangerous. Pippin From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Oct 11 19:02:18 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:02:18 -0000 Subject: Coifs and Alignment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth" wrote: > Kingsley's shaved head is the ultimate fighter hairstyle -- consider > King David's son Absalon, who got killed when his luxuriant hair got > caught in the tree branches. (One of the reasons I dislike fanfics who > portray Sirius pre-1981 as the uber-Auror wunderkind with long > fabulous midnight/raven/sable hair (never plain black, for some > reason). Moody would probably have had a few objections, if nothing else.) > > Alshain You've set a picture in my head of various characters wearing a kind of short crew cut-ish style now, which I always think of as "government agent" which I think is going to be very hard to mentally dislodge. Crikey, I'm thinking Tommy Lee Jones in Men In Black... Now here comes the suit... Sirius-the-Auror - wherever did that one come from? June From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Oct 11 19:12:34 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:12:34 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter - the background in the British Press (Longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: (snip) > "The Quibbler"? To those who know it, I would equate it to > the "Sunday Sport". Carolyn: IMHO, I think 'The Quibbler' is far closer in style to 'Private Eye', a highly satirical UK magazine that frequently runs close-to-the- libel laws stories about corruption in high places. The allegations about Fudge and the goblins would be just the kind of thing it would love to print ! From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sat Oct 11 20:48:16 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:48:16 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > wrote: > > > My personal opinion is, SNIPPAGE It would be much more interesting, if someone, > who is supposed to be nice, is the spy. > > > > Well said! We are looking for someone who is supposed to be > nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal > personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, > Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know > which one I'd pick. > >MORE Discriminate SNIPPING> Pippin So far, the only "spy" we have experience with is Barty Crouch Jr. How well did JKR do in preventing his cover from being blown? Who suspected him early on and why? Is there anyone who was not completely fooled? I was... Jennifer From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Oct 11 20:51:49 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:51:49 -0000 Subject: Being a DE (Was:Re: Peter and Gollum) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82736 > susanbones2003 (Jennifer) wrote: > > > 1) What the heck is the draw of serving Lord Voldemort? He's a horrible leader, and as you say pay and benefits are lousy. One way or the other, most of his followers end up on the wrong end of things or dead. What's his attraction? > Why do people gamble when they know the odds are with the House? For the thrill of it, because they're compulsive, because there are rewards they can't get any other way. Voldemort holds out the lure of the forbidden Dark Arts. He easily draws followers from the pool of addictive personalities in power *hungry* Slytherin House. He tempts his followers with things they can't get otherwise: eternal life for the purebloods whose lines will die out if they don't marry Muggles, acceptance for the exiled Giants and the disenfranchised Goblins, revenge for the embittered, power to those whose naked desire for it has disqualified them, stability for those who are upset by the upheavals in wizarding society caused by the inflow of Muggleborns. The slot machine rewards the player with small change and an occasional jackpot, meanwhile collecting more than it gives out. Voldemort does the same. Pippin From katiecannon2000 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 21:43:54 2003 From: katiecannon2000 at yahoo.com (katiecannon2000) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:43:54 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al In-Reply-To: <008d01c38f32$7bdca3a0$beec79a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" > "How d'you know that?" he asked her, astonished. > > Aunt Petunia looked quite appalled with herself. She glanced at Uncle > Vernon in fearful apology, then lowered her hand slightly to reveal her > horsy teeth. > > "I hear -- that awful boy -- telling *her* about them -- years ago," she > said jerkily. > > > (OotP, ch two, p. 31-32 US ed.) > > > Case closed, so far as I'm concerned. She remembered James (who she hated, > and may have also been secretly infatuated with... which may be where some > of her problem stems... but I digress.) discussing it with Lilly. > > > Just my two centaurs worth. > > Iggy McSnurd > the Prankster I think this is one of those times where the speaker didn't get their full thought out. We are supposed to assume "that awful boy" means James. My personal suspicion is that it was Snape... --kc, unlurking for a change From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 21:51:07 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:51:07 -0000 Subject: James and Snape was OT:To Jeff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Suppose James had done nothing. Snape's death would have > seemed to be a horrible accident . There'd be no Snape around > to say that Sirius had told him how to get into the Willow. The > Hogwarts governors would want the whole thing hushed up, so > in the ensuing cover-up, Sirius and Lupin might have escaped > exposure. A desperate gamble, but for Lupin, who says that his > friends' company was the only thing that made his > transformations bearable, it might have been worth it. Laura: Do you really think that Lupin would have been allowed to stay at Hogwarts if he'd killed Snape? Yes, the governors would have hushed up as much of the incident as possible, but these things have a way of getting out. No one ever says that Remus encouraged the other 3 to become animagi so they could hang out with him. In fact, judging from what teenage!Sirius says in OoP, at least he looked forward to the full moon more than Remus did. > > > James didn't only save Snape, he caught him out of bounds. > The Willow was forbidden because of Davy Gudgeon's eye. > Snape could have been expelled if he was caught there again. > Ergo, no more spying, and the Marauders' secret remained safe. > Whether James deliberately waited to interfere until Snape had > entered the Willow, we don't know. > > Laura: The problem I have with ESE!Remus (aside from the fact that I like him) is that if he turns out to be a bad guy, that means 2 of the 4 Marauders were in fact DEs. I can't believe that JKR is quite that cynical. Is the Order really so vulnerable that even people who risked their lives the first time around are willing to sell it out the second time? From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Oct 11 22:09:58 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:09:58 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth, symbols In-Reply-To: <20031006162534.79177.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82739 Debbie wrote: > Something else I noticed this week was what happened to Hermione in the Department of Mysteries (where everything seems to be a metaphor) just before she is hit by Dolohov's curse: "Hermione smashed into a bookcase and was promptly deluged in a cascade of heavy books." I think we're being reminded here that Hermione's book- learning and logic can only take one so far. Melanie replied > > Are you implying that Hermione is not a competent witch. I think that she is more than competent in her magical abilities. As I understand it, Debbie's was making a symbolic point, not describing Hermione's magical abilities. Hermione is a great book-lover, and here she is shown being hurt instead of helped by books. In real life, of course, that would be meaningless, but this is fiction. I'm interested in Debbie's statement "where everything seems to be a metaphor" above: certainly in the Chamber and the Shrieking Shack there seems to be plenty of symbolism going on. David From Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com Sat Oct 11 22:14:08 2003 From: Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:14:08 -0000 Subject: coifs and alignment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82740 ? <"Serena Moonsilver" wrote: Maybe it's just me but I'm beginning to notice a connection between hair and whether a character is good or evil. In general characters with messy or unkempt hair are good (Harry, Hermione, Luna, Hagrid). And characters with more managed hair are more questionable if not evil (Lockhart, Umbridge, all the Malfoys).> Me: I do think you are onto something here. It may not be as blatant as Messy=good or kempt=bad. A more subtle reading might be that hair itself is an indicator of something about the character: red hair and black hair for instance. Red haired people are: Dumbledore, Lily, the Weasleys, Mungus and Crookshanks. All good. Black hair: James, Harry, Sirius, Snape, Tom Riddle. I think a male character with black hair is a Harry doppelganger; someone with a deep connection to him. If that man is also thin, more significance. Look at the beginning of PoA. The first three times Sirius is mentioned, he is directly compared to Harry. The first one, on p. 17 concerns hair. Uncle Vernon says of the picture of Black on tv: "'No need to tell us *he's* no good....Look at the state of him...Look at his hair!' He shot a nasty look sideways at Harry, whose untidy hair had always been a source of great annoyance." Sirius with "filthy, matted" hair and Snape with "greasy" hair. These two are also connected, like opposite sides of the same coin. (But that's another post and has probably already been done.) Whether father figure or enemy, all thin black haired men are connected to Harry, are his opposites or doubles. I would also argue that Lupin and Dumbledore are connected by virtue of their gray hair....gray hair signifying someone carrying a a heavy weight, and dark secrets. As for McGonagle and her tidy bun, I think she puts it in a bun to get it out of her way and never thinks about it again. She is clean and well-organized but far from vain. People who are well coifed (Malfoys, Umbridge with her "large black velvet bow", Rita Skeeter in her GoF days, Lockhart, the Dursleys) are vain as well as tidy about their hair. For the Dursleys it's a sign of their respectability. For Rita Skeeter it's a sign of her persona, like her long fingernails and makeup. When she finally gets cornered into doing something good in Oop, her hair is no longer well coifed, but a mess. p 565 OoP: "The hair that had once been set in elaborate curls now hung lank and unkempt around her face." As for the girls: Cho with her beautiful, long hair is not bad, but not exactly a deep character, either. She is a pretty typical "pretty girl". Hermione on the other hand has an unmanagable bush. For the ball in GoF, she spend hours making it look good, but the very next day announces she can't be bothered to go to all that fuss everyday, and we have yet to see her glamourized again. She is too smart to fall for the "looks are everything" mentality. And I would argue that Ginny's red hair connects her to the two mother (figures) in HP: Lily and Molly. I suspect that means she will be Harry's girlfriend on that basis. Any more thoughts on hair out there? Marmelade Mom, brushing the hair from her six cats and two dogs off her sweater, and going off to read more Harry. From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 11 23:49:08 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:49:08 -0000 Subject: coifs and alignment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82741 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "barbara_mbowen" wrote: > As for McGonagle and her tidy bun, I think she puts it in a bun to > get it out of her way and never thinks about it again. She is clean > and well-organized but far from vain. People who are well coifed > (Malfoys, Umbridge with her "large black velvet bow", Rita > Skeeter in her GoF days, Lockhart, the Dursleys) are vain as well > as tidy about their hair. For the Dursleys it's a sign of their > respectability. For Rita Skeeter it's a sign of her persona, like > her long fingernails and makeup. When she finally gets > cornered into doing something good in Oop, her hair is no > longer well coifed, but a mess. p 565 OoP: "The hair that had > once been set in elaborate curls now hung lank and unkempt > around her face." You'll get no arguments from me about Rita, Lockhart and the Dursleys. McGonagall's and Maxime's bun hairstyle is the proverbial elderly, strict, competent, fair, no-nonsense schoolmarm. Good characters, but definitely not persons you'd like to cross. One of my pals is still reading my copy of OOP, but I recall Umbridge's hairstyle as a mousy, curly pagecut held in place with an Alice band (referring to Alice in Wonderland) or a bow, the kind of style that looks misplaced on anyone but a little girl. There was an interesting thread about Umbridge and her maiden aunt appearance during the summer and of course I can't find it on Yahoo when I need it, but as I recall the main argument was that by infantilising herself she makes herself out to be less of a danger to the patriarchy than "grown-up" women. Alshain From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 23:59:52 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:59:52 -0000 Subject: Can JKR write dialogue? Her use of "Swifities" says "No." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82742 I came across this item in a thread on the use of adverbs in attributions of speech in JKR's dialogue over at OTC. I found it surprising that David reached interpretations of more than one conversation in the HP books that were at odds with those JKR intended as evidenced by her modifying adverb. I couldn't remember any such instances offhand, so I asked David to try and remember some of the instances he recounts below. I think this is an appropriate area of exploration for the main list, and one that has not been considered before, to my recollection. The question is whether there is a defect, or ambiguity in the way JKR creates conversations, and is she relying overmuc on the modifying adverbs to convey her meaning, which is an inferior technique to conveying said meaning within the dialogue itself. Can anyone cite instances where their intitial impression of the flavor of an exchange was contradicted by such modifying adverbs? I will be on the lookout for such, and I ask that you all do as well. -Haggridd --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > When I read OOP aloud to my son I really noticed this habit. On > many, many occasions I interpreted the speech, came to the adverb, > and had to go back and re-read in a different tone of voice. I > didn't like it at the time. > > I think it's an interesting question whether this adds to or > detracts from the story. JKR kept overriding my interpretation, but > maybe there's a point to that. I am not sufficiently good or > experienced a writer to know if she could have written the dialogue > slightly differently to ensure that the appropriate tone of voice > would come out of the printed words. Haggridd wrote: David, I find this extremely interesting. You pose the crucial question: Is JKR deficient in her use of dialogue, or is your ear for her dialogue defective? I would be extremely interested if you would cite a number of examples, either onlist or offlist. I would like to see whether I interpret these exchanges differently from JKR, as demonstrated by her choice of adverb. I think you have hit upon something new in discussion of the HP books here, and more substantive than trading Swifties, however entertaining they may be. Let's pursue it, shall we? Haggridd > > David From rredordead at aol.com Sun Oct 12 00:19:20 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 00:19:20 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82743 Well said! We are looking for someone who is supposed to be nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know which one I'd pick. Jennifer said: So far, the only "spy" we have experience with is Barty Crouch Jr. How well did JKR do in preventing his cover from being blown? Who suspected him early on and why? Is there anyone who was not completely fooled? I was... Now me: Personally I think the betrayal will come from more than one source. Yes, there is a spy, currently dishing out information to LV and his army (or what's left of them). I believe it to be either Lupin, (but I'm still not convinced) Tonks (but we really don't know much about her yet), or Snape playing a double agent. But the bigger, personal betrayal of Harry will come from Ron, who IMO, is destined to replay the role of Leonties in the only other story with a 'Hermione' in it. Shakespeare's The Winter's Tale. In The Winter's Tale we have a triangle of two men and one women: a husband `Leonties' (Ron crushing badly) who is insanely jealous of a fictional love affair he perceives to exist between his 'wife' (Hermoine) and their mutual best friend (Harry). The set-up is perfect. The seeds of Ron's jealously of Harry have already been laid throughout the 5 books, and I believe the Quiddich match in Book 5 will be the straw that breaks the camels back. Ron is going to begin to question why his two best friends could not be at his cup winning game. Remember, his winning and holding the Quiddich House Cup was in his fantasy in the Mirror of Irised, for Harry and Hermione not to be there, even though they have a valid excuse, is going to really hurt when he spends the summer dwelling on it. Potent stuff. Love triangle jealousy can create a nasty mess. I hate to think of what Ron can do to hurt Harry. Although, if the 3 friends survive they to the end of Book 7 they will make-up and live happly ever after of course. Mandy From akhillin at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 00:21:55 2003 From: akhillin at yahoo.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can JKR write dialogue? Her use of "Swifities" says "No." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031012002155.1335.qmail@web41804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82744 Haggridd wrote: I came across this item in a thread on the use of adverbs in attributions of speech in JKR's dialogue over at OTC. I found it surprising that David reached interpretations of more than one conversation in the HP books that were at odds with those JKR intended as evidenced by her modifying adverb. akh replied: After reading Stephen King's review of OOP, in which he noted the "excessive" use of adverbs, I reread OOP and then embarked on another read of the earlier books. I saw considerably less of the modifiers in the earlier books, so she must have relied more heavily on them in OOP than in the past. I hadn't noted their use in the first read, but I am inclined to agree with SK that there are a few that, while I'm not convinced they contradict the meaning of the dialogue, may be redundant. I mentally edited out some of them and found no real diminution of meaning. Perhaps she felt the dialogue was a bit more ambiguous this time than it had been in the past. akh, who has a nasty tendency to "grade" everything she reads. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rredordead at aol.com Sun Oct 12 00:26:07 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 00:26:07 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82745 Iggy McSnurd said: Case closed, so far as I'm concerned. She remembered James (who she hated, and may have also been secretly infatuated with... which may be > where some of her problem stems... but I digress.) discussing it with Lilly. kc said: I think this is one of those times where the speaker didn't get their full thought out. We are supposed to assume "that awful boy" means James. My personal suspicion is that it was Snape... Now me: Yes, I've heard this before, but how do you suppose Petunia new Snape? James hated him, so I don't think he would have had him over to meet the girlfriend's family. And even if Lily was friendly with Snape would he, who clearly hates mudbloods, have taken time to meet her muggle family? I'm interested in the rest of your theory. Mandy From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 00:33:37 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 00:33:37 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82746 "hickengruendler" > wrote: My personal opinion is, that, if there is a spy in the Order, it won't be Snape. Mainly because he is still a highly suspicious character, and it would IMO be really disappointing, if he turns out to be evil. It would be much more interesting, if someone, who is supposed to be nice, is the spy. "pippin_999" wrote: Well said! We are looking for someone who is supposed to be nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know which one I'd pick. ______________________________________________________________________ Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I still stand by what I said in message 82659: As much as I really do not like Snape, I really do not see him going back. Just my opinion though, now to whom I think might be... could be... persuaded? I really hate to say it, but... here goes... Molly Weasley. The reason I say this is from what slgazit wrote, "If Peter is any guide, I'd expect the betrayer to be someone with emotional problems and low self esteem". After all, it basically takes someone with high self esteem to banish a boggart, because if you have doubts, the boggarts banishes you. Plus, seeing as LV is a master of Legilimency, if he "reads" Molly, he will see that her greatest fear is her family all getting killed, so, he offers her a deal, she helps him, he makes sure that all her children lives. And seeing as how Molly wasn't in the original OotP, she doesn't or might not compleatly understand that she can not trust LV. Yes, seems silly, but LV is good at getting people to believe him, even when what he says seems unbelievable to others. And let's face it, see is worried about her children being killed, including Harry. And if LV tells her that he will not harm any of them if she gives him the information, she would be extreamly tempted. And, who else would be able to make Harry feel more betrayed than the person he is starting to see as a mother? Fred From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 01:02:25 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:02:25 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al In-Reply-To: <008d01c38f32$7bdca3a0$beec79a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82747 "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: Everyone seems to be missing something about how Petunia knows about the Dementors and such: "How d'you know that?" he asked her, astonished. Aunt Petunia looked quite appalled with herself. She glanced at Uncle Vernon in fearful apology, then lowered her hand slightly to reveal her horsy teeth. "I heard -- that awful boy -- telling *her* about them -- years ago," she said jerkily. (OotP, ch two, p. 31-32 US ed.) Case closed, so far as I'm concerned. She remembered James (who she hated,and may have also been secretly infatuated with... which may be where some of her problem stems... but I digress.) discussing it with Lilly. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd _____________________________________________________________________ Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I do not see Petunia having heard about dementors from Lily, James or any of the other school kids (before Harry came to stay at her house). As LV said in GoF, pg 651 paperback, US, "The dementors will join us... they are our natural allies..." So, if the dementors are LV "natral allies", and DD seems to think they will go over to LV as soon as he ask them to, it only seems logical that they were his followers in the "first war". And if they were LV allies, they would not have been guarding Azkaban, unless Lily and James got married and waited many years to have Harry. But if she did not hear about the dementors from her sister or her soon to be brother-in-law, I can only assume that JKR has been leading us astray with lies. And I really do not want to believe that. Fred From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 12 01:21:43 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:21:43 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82748 Re: Who will betray the order? > > From: "slgazit" > > "I personally put my money on Snape as the eventual betrayer (I > > don't think he is as of yet), especially if DD snuffs it and > > he'll face the choice of going back to his former master or > > helping a boy he detests. > > now Kylie: > > I cannot find the quote right now, but in JKR's appearance at > > the Royal Albert Hall in June, <...snip...> she replies in > > essence that Severus Snape is definitely not a nice person and > > not to be trusted > Hickengruendler: > I really don't want to nitpick, but this is not exactly what JKR > said and she normally uses her words very carefully. She said that > we shouldn't feel to sorry for him and that he is worth to keep an > eye on him. She didn't say that he is not to be trusted (that > said, I don't think she would give such an important information, > if Snape really isn't trustworthy). Pip!Squeak: Yes, Hickengruendler's quoted JKR almost exactly. There are various transcripts of this interview (including an official Bloomsbury one) and JKR's exact words were: JK Rowling: Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pip!Squeak: Practically the only thing this quote actually rules out is the idea that Snape is a nice, sweet guy, pretending to be nasty. Otherwise, this quote could mean: a) Snape is not nice, but he's on Dumbledore's side to the death (Snape's, not Dumbledore's). Keep an eye on him, because he's important to Voldemort's downfall. b) Snape is not nice, but he's on Dumbledore's side to the death (Dumbledore's, not Snape's). Keep an eye on him because he'll switch sides again. c) Snape is not nice, and is betraying Dumbledore. Keep an eye on him, because he's important to Dumbledore's downfall. d) Snape is not nice, and is pretending to be even less nice than he actually is, for reasons connected with either a), b) or c). Keep an eye on him. e) Look, she *told* you to keep an eye on him, don't blame me if he goes and does something nobody expects! ;-) > Hickengruendler: > My personal opinion is, that, if there is a spy in the Order, it > won't be Snape. Mainly because he is still a highly suspicious > character, and it would IMO be really disappointing, if he turns > out to be evil. > Pip!Squeak: Agreed. To me it would be desperately disappointing if JKR gave us this suspicious, unlikeable, tortured character, (who appears to have arrived at Hogwarts somewhat to his and the author's surprise; Snape seems to have wandered in from some Dostoyevskian novel about redemption)- and then says at the end of the book 'hah, fooled you; he was the villain all along. Leopards don't change their spots, you know; once a villain, always a villain.' For one thing, it's not in keeping with one of the themes of the books. People change. James Potter changed from a thoughtless bully into someone who suddenly realised Snape could *die* from one of his gang's 'jokes'. Harry is changing throughout the books. Neville is growing up. Barty Crouch Sr. realises at the end of his life that he's been horribly wrong. People change. For another, a growing theme of the books is that people are complex. Sirius has both faults and virtues. Umbridge is both one of the most memorably nasty characters in modern fiction, and a supporter of law, order and peace against disruption. The WW itself isn't all that nice (to put it mildly). However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if one of the major plotlines of Book Seven (probably not Six) was Harry's apparent betrayal by Snape. Because that is something we're being set up for. Consider: In OOP we discover that Voldemort can read minds. Except he can't. Snape plants the idea of the 'subtle difference' in our heads, and Harry, as usual, promptly ignores it. What Voldemort, or any Legilimens can do, is `extract feelings and memories from another person's mind'. [OOP, p. 468 Ch. 24] What I suspect (this is my opinion) is that they *can't* actually break into what the other person *thinks* about those memories and feelings. Sooo, Voldemort breaks into Harry's mind, and what does he see? Lots of memories of Snape shouting at Harry, throwing stuff at him, treating him unfairly, sneering at him. Voldemort breaks into Snape's mind: and sees exactly the same thing. He looks at Snape's feelings; and there is hatred associated with Harry Potter. What he cannot tell is what Snape *thinks* about this. Nor, because Snape is a skilled Legilimens, can Voldemort access any memories that might contradict the `Snape hates Harry' scenario. Snape is very carefully and neatly set up so that he can betray Harry because he hates him so much. Not betray Dumbledore; betray Harry. What both Harry and the reader are unlikely to be able to tell is whether this betrayal is *real*. Is this some long laid plot by Dumbledore? Or has Snape finally decided that he really can't stand the little brat a second longer? This would be both a fascinating plot, and in keeping with the growing complexity of the books. Harry doesn't like Snape. Harry would, in a way, love it if Snape were a genuine traitor. It would prove he was right all along. [Ron would be ecstatic] Equally, lots of readers don't like Snape (lots of readers *do*, and therein lies JKR's big problem). They'd love it if he were the traitor. So they'd be emotionally involved in Harry's struggle to work out the truth. They, like Harry, would be naturally inclined to distrust Snape. They, like Harry, would be struggling to work out if a leopard can change its spots. Whether some marks do come off. Whether a naturally not-very-nice-person can decide that he's willing to risk his life to repair some of the wrong he's done. Whether someone can be complex enough to be on the side of good whilst being a naturally nasty person. Whether someone can change. So, speculating that this may be a major plotline in one of the two remaining books: do we see any signs? Well, there are the interviews. Every time the dreaded `Snape's a nice guy really, isn't he?' question comes up, JKR seems to get a variation of the `authorial twitch'. [IMO, she reacts as if she really doesn't like this question.] If a major plotline in a future book depends on the reader *not* knowing whether to trust Snape, you can't answer that question. So she doesn't. The interview answer is always some variation on `keep an eye on him'. And she often emphasises something that we *already* know ? Snape is not nice. [Folks, this man mentally tortures small children. He may have good reasons for doing it; but `nice' he ain't. ] Secondly, there is the complexity of the characterisation. Even in Book One, which is written in the eleven-year-old black-and-white viewpoint, we see Snape-as-poet (that first Potions class). He's complex, and he feels real. He feels like a character that has had his back-story worked out in excruciating detail, until JKR knows almost without thinking how he will react in any situation. But to date, Snape's function in the plot really hasn't required that level of detail. He was the stock villain (fooled you!) in Book One. He's almost in the background in Book Two. In Book 3 he's someone with good reason to dislike Lupin, which leads him (face value reading) to ruin the happy ending in the Shrieking Shack. In Book 4 he has very little plot value, but we find out a *lot* about his past, and in Book 5 he also has relatively little plot value. Dumbledore, or Lupin (or anyone JKR decided) could have given the Occlumancy lessons. Harry could have stormed out because he's in a bad temper [he does in almost every other chapter ;-) ]. In both Book 4 and Book 5, Snape is almost present just for the purpose of Harry (and the reader) finding out more and more about him (and keeping in our minds that `Snape hates Harry'). Even the OOP argument with Sirius isn't *necessary* to the plot. Sirius would have felt trapped enough without Snape. So, JKR thinks her readers will need to know a lot about Snape. She seems to know a lot about Snape ? and this shows in the very first book. If Snape's nature and character turns out to be vital to the plot in Book Seven, this makes perfect sense. She had to work out his character and back-story when she was working out the series plot line. When she wrote Book One, she had to give Snape a lot of screen time (he was the distraction). And the background knowledge showed; that's why he feels so real in a book where the adults are otherwise mostly stock characters. So, is Snape the traitor? I dunno. I think we'll find out at the end of Book Seven ;-) Pip!Squeak From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Oct 12 01:21:45 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:21:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > This is probably a tres stupide thing to ask, but why couldn't Sirius > have just gone to Ollivander's and bought a new one? Maybe because he's still the Wizard World's Most Wanted Escaped Convict with a price of 10,000 galleons on his head. I doubt Sirius could waltz down Diagon Alley in pursuit of a new wand at Ollivander's, even assuming Ollivander conducts his business like the goblins at Gringott's and simply doesn't care who walks into his store to purchase a wand. Surely someone else in that very busy street would have noticed Sirius' presence. The wand > chooses the wizard, yes, but I could see the MOM destroying his first > wand upon his imprisonment. Surely a *second* wand can choose the > wizard if the first is lost or destroyed? I'm sure that's true, but there's still that pesky business of "wanted criminal wandering openly through the streets" that would seem to preclude the easy purchase of another wand for Sirius. Perhaps it was a simple as Lupin or someone going to Ollivander's with a fictitious story about why they needed a new wand. Whoever this person is purchases a wand and gives it to Sirius. It's not a perfect match, but it's a wand, and probably better than being wandless. Marianne From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Oct 11 17:27:10 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:27:10 -0000 Subject: Peter and Gollum In-Reply-To: <003301c39010$3edf3d80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: Taryn: > As to the draw of serving Voldmort... Desire for personal power? If you're like Peter, the idea of being on the winning side? I mean, when Voldemort first held power, it really looked like the good guys were losing. It WAS a winning side. Geoff: An interesting bit of canon here to back that up: "'Professor Lupin?' siad Hermione timidly, 'Can - can I say something?' 'Certainly, Hermione,' said Lupin courteously. 'Well - Scabbers - I mean, this - this man - he's been sleeping in Harry's dormitory for three years. If he's working for You Know Who, how come he never tried to hurt Harry before now?' 'There!' said Pettigrew shrilly, pointing at Hermione with his maimed hand. 'Thank you! You see, Remus? I have never hurt a hair of Harry's head! Why should I?' 'I'll tell you why,' said Black, 'Because you never did anything for anyone unless you could see what was in it for you. Voldemort's been in hiding for twelve years, they say he's half-dead. You weren't aout to commit a murder right under Albus Dumbledore's nose for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all his power were you? You'd want to be quite sure he was the biggest bully in the playground before you went back to him, wouldn't you?.......'" (POA p. 271 UK edition) From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 10 17:38:16 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:38:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Being a DE (Was:Re: Peter and Gollum) References: Message-ID: <001a01c38f55$4b158700$ccee79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82752 > > susanbones2003 (Jennifer) wrote: > > > > > 1) What the heck is the draw of serving Lord Voldemort? He's a > > > horrible leader, and as you say pay and benefits are lousy. One > way > > > or the other, most of his followers end up on the wrong end of > things > > > or dead. What's his attraction? > > - Caipora > There's no shortage of real-world examples. Look at the late Ida > Amin. There was once a portrait in the paper of him and his > goverment, five years later: half the groups had been killed by him. > Yet he still had followers. Any number of tinpot dictators have > similar records. Iggy: Then again, there's also the fact that there are some people in the world who are inherently cruel, vicious, bullying, and enjoy torturing or bringing harm to others. These people are the types that are drawn towards the "Death Squad" mentality, and will gather under the banner of someone like Pol Pot, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, and any other cruel tyrant... like Lord Voldemort. These are the people who are praised by their leader for indulging in their darker sides, and inhumanity. They are the ones who become very efficient and skilled at what they do either because they revel in it wholeheartedly, or lean in the opposite direction and are cold, emotionless, and see it as a scientific study. (I've actually exampled the latter type of person in a background I wrote for a role playing game character who would give Hannibal Lechter the willies.) And, as they often prefer to act against those who are seen as being helpless, "too nice," or "weak," they draw together and bully others only when they have the strength of numbers behind them... even if the person acts alone, they have the threat of retaliation by a group backing them up. Much like Dudley and his boyhood gang... isn't it? Just my two centaur's worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Subvert the dominant paradigm." -- ABS FIRECAT (and a particular favorite of those who play "Mage: The Ascension.") From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 10 17:45:04 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:45:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coifs and Alignment References: Message-ID: <002101c38f56$691d6780$ccee79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82753 Alshain: > I'd like to know why you consider Tonks' hair to be untidy. > Ever-changing I'll grant you. Iggy: (OotP, ch 3, pg 47, US ed.) "Oooh, he looks just like I thought he would," said the witch who was holding her lit wand aloft. She looked the youngest there; she had a pale heart-shaped face, dark twinkling eyes, and short spiky hair that was a violent shade of violet. "Wotcher, Harry!" While she can change her appearance at will, her descriptions most commonly show her leaning towards the short and spiky look... something which is, by definition, designed to look rather untidy. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 22:33:04 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:33:04 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82754 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serious_schwartz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" > wrote: > > Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but I was > wondering if > > we missed something important due to Hermione's > uncharacteristic > > arrogance. Referring to the locked door in the Department of > > Mysteries, Luna says "You know what could be in there?" > Hermione > > brushes this aside with the sotto voce comment to Neville > "Something > > blibbering, no doubt" and we never get to hear what Luna > thought > > could be behind the door. > > > Sylvia (who really likes Luna and hopes she will be the one to > put > > Harry together again) > > I have always thought that bit was more about Hermione's > snappishness with Luna. Hermione has no patience for Luna > (for obvious reasons), but she also seems a bit threatened by > her. I don't think Hermione is anti-female, but I think she feels > threatened by how interesting Luna is. Usually, Hermione is > pretty circumspect about how she treats other people. Luna is an > exception. AP: To me, Hermione represents the Logic and Luna represents Faith (not an original thought, I'm sure). I read this passage as just another example of how Logic -- which people in our culture generally seem to value more highly -- devalues Faith. I like Hermione/Logic too, and I know she is vital for Harry's success, but I'm really hoping Luna and her father catch a Crumple-Horned Snorkack in Sweden. And I hope Harry continues to develop his relationship with Luna/Faith (not necessarily in a shipping sense) because he needs her just as much as he needs Hermione -- maybe more as he moves into his new role as "savior" of the WW. (Hermione *does* seem to be coming around, too -- in the hospital wing after Luna announced her summer plans, Hermione "seemed to struggle with herself for a moment, then said, "That sounds lovely." p. 848) From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sat Oct 11 01:43:30 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:43:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al References: Message-ID: <001501c38f99$148f26c0$448baec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82755 > Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; > > I do not see Petunia having heard about dementors from Lily, James or > any of the other school kids (before Harry came to stay at her house). > As LV said in GoF, pg 651 paperback, US, "The dementors will join > us... they are our natural allies..." > So, if the dementors are LV "natral allies", and DD seems to think > they will go over to LV as soon as he ask them to, it only seems > logical that they were his followers in the "first war". And if they > were LV allies, they would not have been guarding Azkaban, unless > Lily and James got married and waited many years to have Harry. > But if she did not hear about the dementors from her sister or her > soon to be brother-in-law, I can only assume that JKR has been > leading us astray with lies. And I really do not want to believe that. > Ummm... I cited canon about where Petunia found out. What other "awful boy" could she have been referring to who might have told Lilly about the Dementors? Also, it doesn't matter if they were guarding Azkaban or not. James would have been even MORE likely to talk about them to Lilly if they were actually involved in the war itself. I don't think that JKR would be lying to her readers about how Petunia found out about the Dementors. For one thing, she doesn't really have any reason to. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "I love cats. They taste just like chicken." -- ABS FIRECAT (and one of the last things any Squib wants to hear.) From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 12 05:17:47 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 05:17:47 -0000 Subject: Coifs and Alignment In-Reply-To: <002101c38f56$691d6780$ccee79a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > > > While she can change her appearance at will, her descriptions most commonly > show her leaning towards the short and spiky look... something which is, by > definition, designed to look rather untidy. > We seem to have two definitions of untidiness here, "can't be arsed-untidy" and "untidy by design". It takes some work to get the short, spiky haircut like the one Tonks is sporting to look perky and sassy instead of just looking like one had slept under a bush. Nothing like three hours' work with Sleekeazy's Hair Potion, but some styling nonetheless if you don't want it to fall flat by lunchtime. Tonks wouldn't have that problem, lucky girl. Alshain From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 12 06:09:38 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 06:09:38 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter / Evans family / Sirius / Wands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82757 Geoff Bannister wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82655 : << The wizarding world appears to have two papers - "The Daily Prophet" and "The Quibbler". >> I agree that the Daily Prophet is their major paper, but not that The Quibbler is its only competition. I even have a bit of canon. OoP, US edition, page 568: <<"My dad thinks it's an awful paper," said Luna (snip) "He publishes important stories that he thinks the public needs to know. He doesn't care about making money." Rita looked disparagingly at Luna. "I'm guessing that your father runs some stupid little village newsletter?" she said. "'Twenty-five Ways to Mingle with Muggles' and the dates of the next Bring-and-Fly Sale?" >> I take that as meaning there are several village newsletters being published in the UK wizarding world. Qui-gong Ginger wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82436 : << Ethel Evans (the widow Evans), who has kept her late husband's surname, gives birth to Mark. Not Jasper [Evans]'s son, but with the father unknown, he gets the Evans surname. >> Your theory works just as well with Mark being Jasper's son and biologically an Evans: Jasper was killed before Harry was put on Petunia's doorstep (Jasper might even have been killed the same night as James and Lily) and Mark wasn't born yet at that time, so Dumbledore's statement that only Petunia (and Dudley, who was in the same place as Petunia) shared Harry's mother's blood was true. But Mark could be born anytime from the next day to nine months after Jasper's death and still be Jasper's biological son. (Even without any of that non-fairy-tale artificial insemination stuff.) Ravenclaw Bookworm Scoutmom wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82473 : << If this is true, then Lily's grandparents or great grandparents might have been magical - hence her parents' pride over her talents. They could have been known about the WW even if they weren't part of it. >> I think that people don't have to be descended from wizards to know about the wizarding world. Suppose that Lily and Petunia's mother's best friend from Muggle school ended up marrying a wizard and asking Lily and Petunia's mother (Mrs Evans) to be her maid of honor at the wedding? Mrs Evans could have ended up going into business with the wizard 'brother'-in-law running an import-export business between the wizarding and Muggle worlds. Aussie Hagrid wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82647 : << BTW, if Sirius was the godfather, was there a godmother ??? >> to which, Iggy McSnurd answered in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82716 : << the godmother could have been Petunia. This would be one reason that helps explain why she took in Harry despite her anger with Lilly. >> I don't think Petunia *could* have been Harry's godmother, because the very first page of PS/SS says: "The Dursleys knew that the Potters had a small son, too, but they had never even seen him." Among Muggles, Petunia couldn't be the godmother unless both she and Harry were at the christening, altho' I *suppose* wizards might have different rules. It has been suggested that Alice Longbottom was Harry's godmother and Lily Potter was Neville's godmother. That would be likely if Alice and Lily had been best friends at school, which there is no canon for nor against. Fred Waldrop wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82693 : << I do not see Petunia having heard about dementors from Lily, James or any of the other school kids (before Harry came to stay at her house). As LV said in GoF, pg 651 paperback, US, "The dementors will join us... they are our natural allies..." So, if the dementors are LV "natral allies", and DD seems to think they will go over to LV as soon as he ask them to, it only seems logical that they were his followers in the "first war". And if they were LV allies, they would not have been guarding Azkaban, unless Lily and James got married and waited many years to have Harry. >> To me it seem quite the contrary. To me it seems entirely logical that IF the Dementors had been LV's allies in the Unpleasantness, the wizarding world would NEVER have trusted them to guard prisoners convicted of supporting LV. To me it seems that the Dementors were already the Azkaban guards then and LV must not have gotten around to recruiting them as allies before his HP defeat. Sylvia Blundell asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82442 : << The question was: why did Sirius go through all that trouble, swimming for miles and then journeying north when he could have simply apparated once he was outside the prison and re-appeared outside the grounds of Hogwarts. >> to which many people answered, including TheWeirdOne18 in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82532 : << Also, like Hogwarts, Azkaban probably has a charm put on it that prohibits people form apparating or disapparating -- it just wouldn't doooooo. Otherwise, all the prisoners would be apparating and disapparating and it wouldn't be a prison... >> I wonder if, instead of Azkaban having an anti-Apparation charm on it, *each prisoner* has had his/her ability to Apparate removed? I mean, removed immediately, not just as a gradual result of exposure to Dementors. Even if it is possible to restore a person's ability to Apparate when they are released, Sirius escaped rather than being released, so he wouldn't have been able to Apparate south to Privet Drive (after landing in North Britain after swimming from Azkaban) and back north to Hogwarts. He apparently *still* can't, which explains Buckbeak. It has been suggested that Sirius never bothered to learn to Apparate back when he was a free man and member of the Order, probably because he preferred to use his flying motorcycle. Aussie Hagrid wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82643 : << So where was he? Maybe the identity of the TROPICAL BIRD would help. Harry said it was so big he was worried it wouldn't fit in his window. Hedwig, the Snowy Owl, would have a wingspan of 4.5 feet, so this bird has a bigger wingspan and is colourful. >> In http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles /2000/0200-scholastic-chat.htm when someone asked JKR: "Where did Sirius Black and Buckbeack go after they went into hiding?", she answered: "Somewhere nice and warm!" My guess had always been the Caribbean, but I don't know whether such a large bird could live on an island? Lliannanshe wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82620 : << Any other opinions on what happens to the wand when a wizard dies? >> to which, Sylvia Blundell replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82633 : << I would have expected it to be buried with him, like a Viking's gear, but this is only an opinion. I can't support it from canon. >> I would have expected that, too, but it seems to me to be opposed by canon. Remember the junk shop in CoS where Percy was found reading 'a small and deeply boring book called Prefects Who Gained Power'? It was described as 'a tiny junk shop full of broken wands, lopsided brass scales, and old cloaks covered in potion stains'. That suggests that the wizarding folk don't feel so much attachment to their old wands, not even enough to dispose of them respectfully when worn out. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 12 06:36:32 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 06:36:32 -0000 Subject: ratty Secret-Keeper / House Elves / Ffred's history of wizards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82758 Ravenclaw Bookworm Scoutmom wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82474 : << The big question is who did Wormtail tell, and how did he hide the fact he was the Secret-Keeper? >> I figure that everyone that Wormtail told about the Potters' hiding place, except Sirius and Voldemort, Wormtail told them via a written note (as DD told HP about 12 Grimmauld Place) and he wrote the note imitating Sirius's handwriting, so as to preserve the illusion that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper. Iggy McSnurd wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82454 : << The illusion, of course, seems to be carefully maintained... such as when Malfoy got angry that Harry had lost him his servant... not slave... >> It seems to me that in the 18th century there wasn't much distinction made between the words 'servant' and 'slave', and the wizarding folk could be conservative about word usage as well as about clothing styles. I checked my beloved One-Look Dictionary (www.onelook.com) and it led me to Smith's Bible Dictionary's definition of 'servant' as the one word 'slave', and their definition of 'slave' has a long explanation of the Bible's laws on Hebrew slaves, which uses the words 'slave' and 'servant' interchangeably, for example: "To the above modes of obtaining liberty the rabbinists added, as a fourth, the death of the master without leaving a son, there being no power of claiming the slave on the part of any heir except a son. If a servant did not desire to avail himself of the opportunity of leaving his service," http://www.biblestudytools.net/Dictionaries/SmithsBibleDictionary/smt.cgi?number=T4077 It also offered the lovely 1828 Webster's, http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exe?search_for_d:/inetpub/wwwroot/cgi-bin/webster/web1828=servant "A person, male or female, that attends another for the pupose of performing menial offices for him, ot who is employed by another for such offices or for other labor, and is subject to his command. The word is correlative to master. Servant differs from slave, as the servant's subjection to a master is voluntary, the slave's is not. Every slave is a servant, but every servant is not a slave." Ffred Manawydan wrote a history of wizardy in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82469 : << In such a world, there would be no guarantee that there would be more than one person in the clan with the "talent", and thus no likelihood that the shaman would have either a mentor in youth to pass on knowledge or a successor in old age to teach. >> Unless the magic entered into all the people of one clan, who maybe lived near a spring whose waters were full of magic, and all the wizards in the world are descended from that one clan. If this happened before humans left Africa, that clan could have intermarried widely with other clans before people wandered off to other continents. << But the new wizardly community also discovered something so spectacular that it was to change the world forever. That discovery was that if two wizards had children, there was an extremely high probability that that child would also have the "talent", and the probability rose dramatically the more wizards there were in the bloodline. >> But surely they discovered that back in the days of villages of 200 people, not waiting until they had cities with many thousand inhabitants and the first Schools of Wizardry and Witchcraft (of which surely the first was in Ur and the second, not much later, was in Egypt). << Wizards removed themselves into a more secluded position in the cities. Children born outside the wizard families with the "talent" were taken in as apprentices to ensure that they had a grasp of what was becoming an increasingly complex and separate world. ... The increased complexity of magic and the size of the corpus of knowledge made it less and less easy for wizards to participate in the muggle world, and more and more likely that they would associate only with their fellows. >> Surely they went through a phase of having an honored and feared place in the Muggle social structure, with wizards serving as advisors to kings, like Merlin to King Arthur, wizards working as weapons inventors for generals, sort of like Archimedes inventing those siege engines, and wizards selling their services to members of the general public who could pay. From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 07:55:00 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 07:55:00 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al In-Reply-To: <001501c38f99$148f26c0$448baec7@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82759 Fred Waldrop wrote: I do not see Petunia having heard about dementors from Lily, James or any of the other school kids (before Harry came to stay at her house). As LV said in GoF, pg 651 paperback, US, "The dementors will join us... they are our natural allies..." So, if the dementors are LV "natral allies", and DD seems to think they will go over to LV as soon as he ask them to, it only seems logical that they were his followers in the "first war". And if they were LV allies, they would not have been guarding Azkaban, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: message 82755 Ummm... I cited canon about where Petunia found out. What other "awful boy" could she have been referring to who might have told Lilly about the Dementors? Also, it doesn't matter if they were guarding Azkaban or not. James would have been even MORE likely to talk about them to Lilly if they were actually involved in the war itself. I don't think that JKR would be lying to her readers about how Petunia found out about the Dementors. For one thing, she doesn't really have any reason to. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd ______________________________________________________________________ Hello all, Fred Waldrop here: Iggy, yes, you did "cite canon", but even if something is said in "canon", it does not always make it so in the end. (Unless you still believe Sirius is a murder, Lily is a freak, Harry got his scare on his forehead from a car wreak, ect.) As I see it, there are things said in the books that are true, and there are things in the books that are not. Even if what Petunia said was true, which boy *from canon* did she hear it from? I have only read the books, (1-5), 4 times, but I can not remember reading her mentioning anyone personally, just some "awful boy". Plus, please explain "Also, it doesn't matter if they were guarding Azkaban or not. James would have been even MORE likely to talk about them to Lilly if they were actually involved in the war itself." ***If they were not guarding Azkaban, how would she know they are guarding Azkaban?!!?*** You are saying it does not matter what they, the dementors, were/are doing, Petunia would/should know about what they are doing now, because Lily and James would have talked about them **not** guarding Azkaban, so this would mean Petunia would know that the dementors are now guarding Azkaban. ***WHAT!!!???*** My point was if they were not guarding Azkaban while Lily and James were in school, how could Petunia have heard from them, L&J, that thet are now guarding Azkaban, considering Harry did not come to live with Petunia until after L&J were killed by LV, and therebye releasing the dementors to go to Azkaban because they were no longer servering LV. Fred From C_fax at hotmail.com Sun Oct 12 08:02:11 2003 From: C_fax at hotmail.com (ceefax2002) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 08:02:11 -0000 Subject: "Severus" trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > I larned in class the other day that there was a Roman governor of > Britain by the name of Julius Severus who was in office around the > year 135 CE, when he was sent to Judea by the emperor Hadrian to > help put down the bar Kochba revolt. Just a bit of trivia...I have > no idea if (1) this has been covered before or (2) JKR ever heard of > this guy. But I have no doubt he had greasy hair and favored > black... > > Laura, who is always pleased to find HP connections in unexpected > places On a similar note, Publius Ovidius Naso (Ovid)'s elder brother was called Lucius. But he seemed to be a nice, conscientious kind of person, so that's probably not a HP link... ;) Ceefax From C_fax at hotmail.com Sun Oct 12 08:12:11 2003 From: C_fax at hotmail.com (ceefax2002) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 08:12:11 -0000 Subject: Why one belongs in Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sir_thames" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiel2fisch" > wrote: > > I totally agree with you. > > Look at all the adults (Molly, Arthur, Lupin, Bill or Charly, even > > Sirius and James), did they do something that qualified them for > > Gryffindor while they were at school? Not that we knew. > > > > IMO it's even not (only) the past that matters here. A 'real' > > Gryffindor shows his courage in front of the problem. And the > > Sorting Hat'd know. > > > > This old hat must surely have abilities every human resource > manager > > would be envious of... > > > > Sunnyi > > Or the hat is a fraud and only picks whatever house the student wants > or in Harry's case; not want.... > > sir_thames Another problem with the sorting - you're going to need roughly equal numbers in each house, especially as the classes are house-based. Perhaps the hat starts off at the beginning of the alphabet putting the kids into whichever house they're best suited for, but towards the other end, they wind up in whichever house is falling behind on numbers. Possibly why all the Weasleys ended up in Griffindor - a lack of exceptionally brave ten-year-olds. Also a possible justification for Blaise Zabini turning out to be a good Slytherin... Ceefax From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 08:14:00 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 08:14:00 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter / Evans family / Sirius / Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82762 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: Fred Waldrop wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82693 : <> "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" To me it seem quite the contrary. To me it seems entirely logical that IF the Dementors had been LV's allies in the Unpleasantness, the wizarding world would NEVER have trusted them to guard prisoners convicted of supporting LV. To me it seems that the Dementors were already the Azkaban guards then and LV must not have gotten around to recruiting them as allies before his HP defeat. ______________________________________________________________________ Hello all, Gred Waldrop here: Catlady, only problem is, there is no real *hard* evidence that the dementors did/did not join LV in the first war. But, seeing as how DD tells Fudge in GoF that half the WW sleeps badly knowing the dementors are guarding Azkaban, it would seem that they were followers in the first war. Plus, LV claims that he and the dementors were "natural allies" in GoF, which suggest they have been on the same sides in the past. If we use your analogy about no one trusting the dementors *if* they supported LV before, how do you explain people like L. Malfoy, Macnair and others who supported LV, yet still had close relations with the MoM? It seems that in the WW a lot of folks can be fooled easily enough. Fred From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 10:09:17 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 10:09:17 -0000 Subject: What was Luna going to say? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "augustinapeach" wrote: > AP: > > To me, Hermione represents the Logic and Luna represents Faith (not > an original thought, I'm sure). I read this passage as just another > example of how Logic -- which people in our culture generally seem > to value more highly -- devalues Faith. I like Hermione/Logic too, > and I know she is vital for Harry's success, but I'm really hoping > Luna and her father catch a Crumple-Horned Snorkack in Sweden. And I > hope Harry continues to develop his relationship with Luna/Faith > (not necessarily in a shipping sense) because he needs her just as > much as he needs Hermione -- maybe more as he moves into his new > role as "savior" of the WW. (Hermione *does* seem to be coming > around, too -- in the hospital wing after Luna announced her summer > plans, Hermione "seemed to struggle with herself for a moment, then > said, "That sounds lovely." p. 848) I think there are two reasons Hermione is rather short with Luna. The first is that Luna is a dreamer where Hermione is more of a "just the facts, ma'am" character. She almost always dismisses anything Luna has to say about the WW. If Hermione can't read it in a book, then it isn't fact and she dismisses it. Imagination is not Hermione's long suit, therefore Luna's tendency to believe in the impossible is to be dismissed. Second reason, Luna is infatuated with Ron. At my first reading or OotP, I had thought that Luna was put in the book for Harry to have an eventual relationship. But when I reread the book, Luna seems to have a thing for Ron. She pointedly said good luck to Ron before his first quidditch match. I cannot find the reference just now, but at one point, Luna significantly mentions Ron and Hermione is very annoyed. That struck me as jealousy on Hermione's part. Of course, I could be wrong... D From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 10:38:24 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 10:38:24 -0000 Subject: Who Killed Sirius Black? (Was:Re: OoP - GUILTY Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82764 Annemehr: > Annemehr commences kicking and screaming against one of the more > shocking aspects of Guilty!Dumbledore: that DD himself is responsible > for the death of Sirius Black. > > > If Sirius was going to die, it was because JKR arranged it, not > Dumbledore. > KathyK turns to her new friend sitting beside her and says: Look at those folks arguing about whether or not Dumbledore killed Sirius. You and I both know you're the one responsible. You threw that second jet of light, not Bellatrix, and certainly not Dumbledore. But I don't know if anyone will believe it or accept it. What do you think, Killer!Lupin? KathyK (who does have arguments for this and promises to post them very soon but right now she's late for work. She also apologizes to everyone for the brief post but she couldn't resist, you see.) From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 12:24:52 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (Dragonetti) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 05:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who will be the Traitor In-Reply-To: <1065812856.9678.55788.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031012122452.25476.qmail@web12504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82765 I for one, used to think that Neville might be the traitor. He tries to not to cause trouble, and he is not the most cunning one, so he might be mislead easily. I know that is exactly betraying, but... Anyway, since OoP, I don't think so anymore. He has shown courage before, in SS when he stood up to Harry and co. and DD wisely rewarded him for it, but also now that he has started to show some real powers so he will have much more self esteem, maybe even enough to cause trouble. So, who can it be now? IMHO, the real traitor should have a very low self esteem, so that being a traitor will make him special. Also he/she should have some inside information to betray. Percy for example, does not have inside information, though I can't see him giving them to Voldemort willingly and knowingly. The Ministry, maybe, but not to Voldemort. Snape won't be the one, either I think. First of all it would be too cliche, and second of all he has his own reasons for betraying Voldemort, though we don't know them yet. However I bet it was him, who learned that V. was after James and Lily and told DD. Though he detested James, and look down on Lily for being Muggle born, so maybe it wasn't him. But then again, we don't know any other people who has betrayed V. Also an intersting point is that he has been teaching potions for 14 years, so he must be employed right after V. downfall, meaning he was a full time Death Eater before that. Anyway, I drifted away from the subject. I think the traitor will be someone we already know and trust, because JKR has been underlining the impact of someone turning his back on DD and the good guys since the third book. However, she has hid the traitor well, since a certain name does not pop in my head. Does a name pop in your head? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 12:43:58 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (Dragonetti) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 05:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chances of Being Alive at the End of Book 7 In-Reply-To: <1065829703.20162.98617.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031012124358.89472.qmail@web12501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82766 "deedeee88" wrote > > > > > > Harry - Alive. 100% certain. He is the subject > of our tale. It > > > would be discouraging to find that he has beaten > the Dark Lord only > > > to die and not see the WW out of danger and face > the prospect of > > > personal happiness. I totally disagree. 1- I think he will die, but not because he has been beaten to Voldemort, but because of an injury he had sustained or something like that. I think it will be like that kid in the movie called "Pay it Forward". He died at the end, after making the world a better place. I can't explain why or how, but I think Harry will die at the end. 2- Even if Harry does survive Voldemort and the after shock, he won't see the world as a better place. He will see the damages done, the lives lost, the years gone, and that he actually is a murderer. For guilt and depression driven endings, see Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. (Frodo leaves the Shire after longing to return to it.) I think, it will end similarly, if Harry survives. You might say that it might end like Buffy did, but keep in mind she had left somepart of herself in the coffin because the spell wasn't completed. > > > Voldemort - 100% dead. All great fantasy saga's > end with the death > > > of the Dark Wizard. I totally agree. If JKR will end the series with Voldemort winning, she would be sued by every kid with a HP book. I know I will. Plus, she likes happy endings. Yes, I know that we haven't really seem any endings yet, but she just does, I'm telling you. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 12 15:02:16 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 12 Oct 2003 15:02:16 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1065970936.26.84731.m10@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82767 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, October 12, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 15:23:05 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:23:05 -0000 Subject: Who will be the Traitor In-Reply-To: <20031012122452.25476.qmail@web12504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82768 Dragonetti wrote: > > I think the traitor will be someone we already know > and trust, because JKR has been underlining the impact > of someone turning his back on DD and the good guys > since the third book. However, she has hid the traitor > well, since a certain name does not pop in my head. > > Does a name pop in your head? Annemehr: Well, I can think of a few who may fit your template, but they are also people I couldn't stand to see turn on Harry. Of course, that's exactly what would make them thematically effective traitors. You are right, though, that the idea of treachery has been in the series for a long time; since the first book, actually, IMO. Harry has felt it vicariously through his parents' betrayal but has yet to receive it directly through someone he personally trusted. It is bad enough to be at the mercy of your enemy and a victim of his hatred; to be placed there by the treachery of one you believed cared for you intensifies the pain immeasurably. And we all know Harry's track record where pain is concerned. Annemehr Who, after reading GoF, thought: 1. Someone had better tend to Harry over the summer and see that he's healing from his Graveyard experience, and 2. There had been rather enough of Harry feeling "pain such as he had never felt before." Silly girl. From yswahl at stis.net Sun Oct 12 15:27:32 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:27:32 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82769 pippin_999 We are looking for someone who is supposed to be nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know which one I'd pick. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 My assessment of ESE!Lupin's motives is out of date. Even I have trouble imagining him as a maddog killer,... ---------------------------------------------------------- Once again, Pippin has a throroughly thought out theory that is worth looking at........ and once again, I run with her premise and am reading everything in a new light...... be warned - you are about to see a beloved character in a new light....... In the climactic battle at the MoM, the one assumption that everyone seems to make including Harry is that Bellatrix killed Sirius. Even Harry says so in no uncertain terms..... but on a careful reread and reread again and under the assumption that Lupin is evil, I am not so sure anymore..... OOP pg 804 --- Lupin is the one who suggests that Harry "round up the others and GO!" no big deal there until ..... OOP pg 805 --- "Only one couple was were still battling.... Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was lauging at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. {{Harry was watching Sirius...... not Bellatrix}} The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. {{Harry saw the light hit -- he did NOT NECESSARILY see who attacked Sirius, just that Sirius was hit. Harry ASSUMED it was Bellatrix who did the hitting. I had assumed that Sirius and Bellatrix were fighting up close and that Bellatrix was on the dais with Sirius - that is not necessarily the case. SIRIUS was on the dais because he later fell into the veil and didnt jump up or down after he was mortally wounded, but Bellatrix could have been anywhere. Her later battle with Harry was all done at a distance!}}. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. {{I thought that it was from getting hit by Bellatrix and his reckless spirit could not believe that he would die. This attitude of Sirius as a risktaker was supported all through the books! But now I fear that "his eyes widened in shock" because he was hit BY LUPIN and the shock was the shock of BETRAYAL BY A DEAR AND TRUSTED FRIEND.}} Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so. He was jumping down the steps again, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore turned to the dais too. {{ Harry was ABOVE the dais looking down, and DUMBLEDORE DID NOT SEE WHAT HAPPENED since he "turned to the dais too" DD was preoccupied rounding up the remaining death eaters and did not see Sirius get hit.}} It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch .... {{Sirius could have been hit in the chest from a shot fired BELOW the dais, the force of the spell forcing him to arch BACKWARD through the veil. Remember he was ducking Bellatrix' first shot....}} And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and suprise on his godfather's wasted, once handsome face as he fell .... {{look of suprise mentioned a SECOND time - a usual sign that JKR wanted us not to forget it, though not the reason for the suprise....}} Harry heard Bellatrix Lastrange's triumphant scream ...... {{which JKR mentions because she wants THE READRES to think that Bellatrix had something to do with Sirius' death ....... Harry sure linked the two together... and now the coup de grace ...........}} But as he reached the ground and sprinted towards the dais, Lupin grabbed Harry around the chest .... {{LUPIN WAS AT GROUND LEVEL BELOW THE DAIS !!! IF SIRIUS DUCKED BELLATRIX' SHOT AND WAS LOOKING AT HER, HE WOULD BE DEAD MEAT IF LUPIN FIRED A SPELL AT HIM FROM BELOW....}} For anyone who thinks this is a good example of blibbering, pls read Pippin's post ........ That said, I am now about to be ill .......... I am convinced that Lupin (is/will be) the traitor to the order ...... as Pippin said in her first post, please somebody, prove me wrong ........ please... And worse yet, since I am a huge Luna fan, the paths of Lupin and Luna will cross...... Samnanya (who is looking for a barf bag) From yswahl at stis.net Sun Oct 12 16:46:38 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:46:38 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82770 > pippin_999 > We are looking for someone who is supposed to be > nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal > personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, > Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know > which one I'd pick. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 > > My assessment of ESE!Lupin's motives is out of date. Even I have > trouble imagining him as a maddog killer,... > > ---------------------------------------------------------- Samnanya Continuation and clarification of my previous post - > > OOP pg 804 Lupin is the one who suggests that Harry "round up the others and GO!" no big deal there -- though he may have the alterior motive of minimizing the number of possible witnesses to what he was about to do. By the S/B battle, only Kingsley and Lupin are still standing -- Tonks is unconscious and Moody is seriously injured, without his magical eye, and crawing across the room to help Tonks, so he wasn't observing much ..... > > OOP pg 805 --- "Only one couple was were still battling.... Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was lauging at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. {{Harry was watching Sirius...... not Bellatrix - there are several earlier mentions of Harry's field of vision and JKR is VERY VERY careful to tell the reader exactly what Harry could and could not see}} The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. {{Harry saw the light hit -- he did NOT NECESSARILY see who attacked Sirius, just that Sirius was hit. Harry ASSUMED it was Bellatrix who did the hitting. I had assumed that Sirius and Bellatrix were fighting up close and that Bellatrix was on the dais with Sirius - that is not necessarily the case (though probably is).SIRIUS was on the dais because he later fell into the veil and didnt jump up or down after he was mortally wounded, but Bellatrix could have been anywhere. She started out on the dais, but the next time we hear from her she is BEHIND THE DAIS fighting Kingsley. If she was on the dais and Sirius was ducking, it would be difficult for her jet to hit him SQUARELY on the chest}}. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. {{I thought that it was from getting hit by Bellatrix and his reckless spirit could not believe that he would die. This attitude of Sirius as a risktaker was supported all through the books! But now I fear that "his eyes widened in shock" because he was hit BY LUPIN and the shock was the shock of BETRAYAL BY A DEAR AND TRUSTED FRIEND.}} Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so. He was jumping down the steps again, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore turned to the dais too. {{ Harry was ABOVE the dais looking down. DUMBLEDORE DID NOT SEE WHAT HAPPENED since he "turned to the dais too" DD was preoccupied rounding up the remaining death eaters and did not see Sirius get hit.}} It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch .... {{Sirius could have been (and probably was) hit in the chest from a shot fired BELOW the dais, the force of the spell forcing him to arch BACKWARD through the veil. Remember he was ducking Bellatrix' first shot....}} And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and suprise on his godfather's wasted, once handsome face as he fell .... {{look of suprise mentioned a SECOND time - a usual sign that JKR wanted us not to forget it, though not the reason for the suprise....}} Harry heard Bellatrix Lastrange's triumphant scream ...... {{which JKR mentions because she wants THE READRES to think that Bellatrix had something to do with Sirius' death .... Harry sure linked the two together... and now the coup de grace ...........}} But as he reached the ground and sprinted towards the dais, Lupin grabbed Harry around the chest .... {{LUPIN WAS AT GROUND LEVEL BELOW THE DAIS !!! IF SIRIUS DUCKED BELLATRIX' SHOT AND WAS LOOKING AT HER, HE WOULD BE DEAD MEAT IF LUPIN FIRED A SPELL AT HIM FROM BELOW.... JKR also made sure that Bellatrix was below the dais in her next scene with Kingsley to have a way out if the Lupin theory became too widely known. She could say that Bellatrix killed Sirius after all if she changed her mind later.}} Only thing missing is a solid evil motive. Lupin could have been turned just because of the prejudice that wizards have borne towards werewolves, but is it enough? He might not even be loyal to or working for Voldemort and is just acting as a "lone wolf" (sorry, I couldnt resist that). I mean, why do all evildoers have to be loyal to the marginally competent Dark Lord ? Hmmmmm......... ---------------------------------------------------------- For anyone who thinks the above is a good example of blibbering, pls read Pippin's post ....... I am convinced that Lupin (is/will be) the traitor to the order ... as Pippin said in her first post, please somebody, prove me wrong ........ please... One more thing.... Worse yet for my hopes of how the story will turn out, I am a huge Luna fan, and the paths of Lupin and Luna will definitely cross...... Luna for good and Lupin for evil. More on this in a later post. Samnanya From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 17:14:24 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 17:14:24 -0000 Subject: Can JKR write dialogue? Her use of "Swifities" says "No." In-Reply-To: <20031012002155.1335.qmail@web41804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82771 akh wrote: > After reading Stephen King's review of OOP, in which he noted > the "excessive" use of adverbs, I reread OOP and then embarked on > another read of the earlier books. I saw considerably less of the > modifiers in the earlier books, so she must have relied more > heavily on them in OOP than in the past. There has been some buzz over the years that Stephen King's work got unwieldy as his success grew, as his publisher(s) stopped trying to edit him. Since I think that OoP could have used tightening, and you are saying that OoP has more adverbs than the earlier books, I'm wondering the same thing about JKR now. I also wonder if it's a case at all of author(s) resisting editing, or if it's merely the publisher staring at the best seller list in happy disbelief and saying, "The public isn't even going to notice a few hundred adverbs and a hundred or so unnecessary pages, so why bother?" (It may be time and effort they just decide not to "waste." Too bad, in my opinion, and I mostly *like* adverbs.) Sandy From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 17:41:50 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 17:41:50 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82772 cubfanbudwoman wrote: > This is probably a tres stupide thing to ask, but why couldn't > Sirius have just gone to Ollivander's and bought a new one? kiricat2001 wrote: > Maybe because he's still the Wizard World's Most Wanted Escaped > Convict with a price of 10,000 galleons on his head. I doubt > Sirius could waltz down Diagon Alley in pursuit of a new wand at > Ollivander's, even assuming Ollivander conducts his business like > the goblins at Gringott's and simply doesn't care who walks into > his store to purchase a wand. Surely someone else in that very > busy street would have noticed Sirius' presence. The crux of the issue for me is that *going to* Ollivander's might not be necessary more than once. You get "measured" for your first wand by the process of being "selected" by the wand you get. Later, why couldn't you just order a replacement by size, wood type, and magical element? (There's been discussion about how one's proper wand type might change over time; but unless one lost or broke the first one, what would indicate the need for a change? I'm guessing most people just go on with their original; maybe Ron's hand-me-down was the result of his brother going off to do a job which required a more specialized wand, and Ron going on well enough with the old one. But how did they know he would, anyway? He couldn't really have tried it out due to the restriction about underage magic; he just showed up at Hogwarts with his brother's old wand and no options if it didn't work out.) One determinining factor is something we don't know: is Ollivander's the only place to get a wand? If so, Mr. O might feel bound to report to the authorities if he gets an order for a wand which is a duplicate for a wanted criminal's original. (We do know that two of the TWT champions had wands not from Ollivander's; I don't see why someone couldn't put in a special owl order outside his or her own country's jurisdiction to one of their suppliers.) Then again, Mr. O might think it was amusing to re-arm Sirius. Not sure if Mr. O is a good guy or just a cold fish who only really cares about the arts of wand-making and wand/wizard-matching). Sandy From yswahl at stis.net Sun Oct 12 18:06:18 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:06:18 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82773 > > pippin_999 > > We are looking for someone who is supposed to be > > nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal > > personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, > > Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know > > which one I'd pick. > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 > > > > My assessment of ESE!Lupin's motives is out of date. Even I have > > trouble imagining him as a maddog killer,... > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Samnanya > Continuation and clarification of my previous posts - Please do not waste your time reading this if you havent read what followed previously - possible MAJOR spoilers ahead (as if there werent enough already if you buy into the Evil!Lupin theory !) Samnanya previously ..... > Only thing missing is a solid evil motive. Lupin could have > been turned just because of the prejudice that wizards have > borne towards werewolves, but is it enough? He might not > even be loyal to or working for Voldemort and is just acting > as a "lone wolf" (sorry, I couldnt resist that). > > I mean, why do all evildoers have to be loyal to the > marginally competent Dark Lord ? > > Hmmmmm......... What follows is a possible explanation as to why Lupin did not want Harry to go after Bellatrix ... Read carefully when Bellatrix is begging Voldemort for forgiveness .... OOP 812 - "Master, I am sorry, I knew not, I was fighting the Animagus Black!" sobbed Bellatrix. ...... "Master you should know-" "But master - he is here - he is below -" {{ uh...... which "he" is she talking about? I always thought it was Dumbledore....... and clearly that makes the most sense, but then again Lupin is the most logical and beloved and sympathetic good guy too ... ... and are her "you should know" and "he is here" referring to the same person? Wouldnt it be interesting if what Bella was TRYING to say before she was interrupted was "Master you should know that I didnt kill the Animagus Black - Remus Lupin did!" Wouldnt Bellatrix want the credit for killing Black if she had done so, particularly if she screwed up getting LV the prophecy? Why "I was fighting the Animagus Black" why not "I was busy killing the Animagus Black"? She likes bragging that she is the Dark Lord's most loyal servant; what better way to get forgiveness and grovelling points than by bragging. And for you folks hoping that Sirius communicates with Harry or returns from behind the veil anytime soon, forget it if you buy into Evil!Lupin. First thing Sirius would do is tell Harry who his real killer was...... And for you folks who think that Luna is unimportant in the future, she will {at least} be the "good werewolf" to Lupins "evil werewolf" so that JKR doesnt portray werewolves prejudicially. - so far all other chararacter classes in the potterverse have good and evil members except for slytherins and werewolves... Luna will also be the force trying to get harry to go through the veil as Lupin will be the force trying to prevent Harry from doing so. If nothing else, Evil!Lupin assures that Dumbledore will either survive or be around well into Book 7 for balance. Samnanya From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sun Oct 12 18:30:27 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 07:30:27 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031013072421.00a30a90@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82774 At 15:27 12/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Samnanya (who is looking for a barf bag) wrote > >That said, I am now about to be ill .......... I am convinced that >Lupin (is/will be) the traitor to the order ...... as Pippin said in >her first post, please somebody, prove me wrong ........ please... I truly wish I could prove you wrong. But while feeling rather ill also. Another scene came to mind. Remember after Harry is thrown out of Snapes office after the pensive (sp) issue. He then goes to talk to Lupin and Sirus. The gist of it is that Sirus really wants to run and have words to Snape, but Lupin strongly insists he is the one to do it, then we have no canon saying he actually did. Still whoever the traitor is, the feeling on discovering who is not going to be nice, and due to the fact of what Harry thinks of Snape, it will have little to no impact on Harry if it was to be him. Tanya From metslvr19 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 18:39:40 2003 From: metslvr19 at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:39:40 -0000 Subject: Why one belongs in Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82775 Aesha wrote: > > > There's been some posting as of late as to why some people are in Gryffindor, since we haven't seen them display the courage or bravery neccesary to be chosen for the Gryffindor House. But why can't they all just have the potential for great courage or bravery? > > > kiel2fisch wrote: > > > I totally agree with you. Look at all the adults (Molly, Arthur, Lupin, Bill or Charly, even Sirius and James), did they do something that qualified them for Gryffindor while they were at school? Not that we knew. > > > Now me: (Laura, who has not had time to read or post anything here for months and months and is very exicted to be back) I agree, the Sorting Hat must only judge potential. How many 11- year olds have had the opportunity to show great bravery? I don't know about you, but I've never exactly been faced with a life- threatening situation. My apologies to anyone who has, I don't mean to be offensive, but the truth is that most people can go along in their lives, virtually risk free, never encoutering a situation in which to demonstrate the courage and bravery they posses deep-down. Harry Potter, of course, is not one of these people. I would, on the other hand, argue that Neville may have exhibited extreme bravery even before that meeting with the Sorting Hat. In OOtP, we discover that Neville has witnessed the death of a grandfather (when Umbridge questions him about his ability to see the thestrals). We also know that Neville lives with his grandmother (and that no mention of her husband is made in the story in relation to raising Neville) and that, according to Lucius, Neville's grandmother "is used to losing family members to our [the DE's] cause..." Theories, anyone? I welcome any snide comments about the numerous theories that have already been presented in relation to these facts, but as previously mentioned, I have been absent from the list since shortly after the release of OOtP, and beg forgiveness. However, in addition to the above, we also know that the Longbottoms are an extremely popular [GoF], long-standing pure-blood family who was important to the anti-LV movement and has suffered numerous personal losses as a result. I would not in the least be surprised if the death Neville's grandfather was somehow related to LV, which would add another traumatic event to the history of young Neville. Of course, we also already know about the torture of his parents, and his strength in visting them every Christmas (imagine how hard it must be for him to see them like that) Well, I assure you that this post originally *did* have a point before it dissolved into random speculations about Neville's past, so I'll leave you with these thoughts to reflect on. =) -Laura From fer_mid at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 17:34:01 2003 From: fer_mid at yahoo.com (Fernando) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:34:01 -0000 Subject: Talking with paints Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82776 Have you ever noticed that in the HP books, everyone can talk with paintings, even of dead or imaginary people, instead of "real" photographs which are only able to move? Is there a painting of Harry's parents, or even of Sirius? What if... From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Sat Oct 11 18:10:41 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:10:41 -0400 Subject: Snape: evil or good Message-ID: <001101c39022$fbb2e940$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82777 Unfortunately, from all the statements that J.K.R. has made about Snape in interviews, he does sound like he will turn out to be completely evil, which is a great disappointment to me. I would like to seem some healing take place and for him to be a hero, broken and battered, but indeed a hero. This is my fondest wish, but I must admit it doesn't look like this will happen. So I feel a little better when I read others' e-mails expressing the same or similar feelings about Prof. Snape. Mary Jo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cookiemacster at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 03:09:07 2003 From: cookiemacster at yahoo.com (cookiemacster) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 03:09:07 -0000 Subject: James and Snape vs. Harry and Peter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82778 Just a thought: Having read numerous posts and not seeing anything about this, I decided I'd pick your brains on the subject! Okay, I was curious if you all think there is a "magical bond" between James and Snape, like there (supposedly) is between Harry and Peter. At the end of book 3 Dumbledore tells Harry that by allowing Peter to live, saving his life, Peter is now in debt to him. Would Snape, by being saved by James, be in some way in debt to James? If so, did Snape ever repay James? Maybe James died before Snape could repay his debt and in a future book he will do so by svaing/helping Harry...? Any thoughts? -Cookiemacster (Sorry, I'd put in a quote or a page number but I am without one at the Moment. Actually, my books are somewhere in my house, but unfortunatly my house-elf can't place one!) From leef at comcast.net Sun Oct 12 20:13:26 2003 From: leef at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:13:26 -0000 Subject: FILK -- We'll get there by Thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82780 To the tune of "The Ballad of John and Yoko" http://www.hamienet.com/15339.mid Standing in the forest with Hermione Trying to find a way to get back To the Ministry of Magic, cause Black's plight is tragic You know, we need to get there fast, that's a fact But we could get there by Thestrals You know how fast they can fly With their sense of direction It's just as easy as pie Ron and Luna come out of nowhere With Ginny and Neville in tow They all want to help out, if Harry would not shout They just might find the way they should go Might even try to use Thestrals You know how fast they can fly With their sense of direction It's just as easy as pie Harry says it's time that they're wasting Ginny, Ron, and Neville agree Luna's thought the thing through And she knows just what to do Although the answer's not too easy to see `Cause they could get there by Thestrals You know how fast they can fly With their sense of direction It'll be just as easy pie Climbing up a thestral, ready for a ride Asking it to take us to the Ministry We're all ready to fly and zoom into the sky Although I'd really rather travel By Knight Bus! Flying on the threstrals to London Hogwarts Students ready to fight Wands at the ready, keep your wrist steady The Ministry is finally in sight Looks like we've made it on Thestrals They really know how to fly And we've got here so quickly Sirius Black won't have to die! Climbing down now onto the pavement Keep on guard against You-Know-Who If we get the boot in, take Sirius from him He'll wonder how we ever got through And we'll say it was Thestrals They got us here in a breeze But the whole time while flying Harry thought he would freeze Yeah, the whole time while flying Harry thought he would freeze. (Okay, it's cheesey. Cheese is good!) From AllieS426 at aol.com Sun Oct 12 21:25:49 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:25:49 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031013072421.00a30a90@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > At 15:27 12/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: > > >Samnanya (who is looking for a barf bag) wrote > > > >That said, I am now about to be ill .......... I am convinced that > >Lupin (is/will be) the traitor to the order ...... as Pippin said in > >her first post, please somebody, prove me wrong ........ please... > > Feel free to direct me to the relevant post(s), but why does everyone seem to think that someone will betray the Order? Is it something that JKR said or just that in every saga there must be a betrayal? It would just about break my heart if it turns out to be any of the people that everyone around here suspects (RON, Molly, Lupin...) Allie From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 12 21:34:06 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:34:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] history of wizards References: <1065952280.2934.52520.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004701c39108$904df5a0$0ce66151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 82782 Catlady wrote: > Unless the magic entered into all the people of one clan, who maybe > lived near a spring whose waters were full of magic, and all the > wizards in the world are descended from that one clan. If this > happened before humans left Africa, that clan could have intermarried > widely with other clans before people wandered off to other continents. I don't think I'd have a problem with that (except to wonder what happened to the magical spring afterwards) except to note that once the intermarriage had happened and the original clan dispersed, the same process of isolation would have taken place. > But surely they discovered that back in the days of villages of 200 > people, not waiting until they had cities with many thousand > inhabitants and the first Schools of Wizardry and Witchcraft (of > which surely the first was in Ur and the second, not much later, was > in Egypt). It depends on where you'd put the ratio of wizard:muggle (something which I deliberately soft-pedalled, given the lack of consensus on-list and the lack of a definitive answer in canon!) I tend to work on a personal rule-of-thumb ratio of 1:100, so that a village of 200 would have indeed had an average of 2 people with the "talent". But I still don't think that would have been enough to lead to the "discovery", because unless there was some reason for the "talented" ones to have children together for a sustained period, the penny wouldn't have dropped that it was inheritance rather than divine intervention. There are of course canon references to ancient Egyptian wizardry. > Surely they went through a phase of having an honored and feared > place in the Muggle social structure, with wizards serving as > advisors to kings, like Merlin to King Arthur, wizards working as > weapons inventors for generals, sort of like Archimedes inventing > those siege engines, and wizards selling their services to members of > the general public who could pay. That's an interesting area to explore, of course. I don't think the withdrawal would have happened at a stroke, because wizardry was an evolving thing and the _ability_ to live separate lives would have been equally gradual. So for a while, the muggle inhabitants of a city would have known who the wizards were, and could well have used their services (alas, almost certainly for love charms, if the Greek magical papyri in our own world are anything to go by!) As far as weapons go, the problem would have been whether the general wanted a wizard actually standing there AKing the opposition (or using some other sort of spell such as concealment) or whether they wanted technology (something that always seems to seduce generals) - technology of course doesn't sit well with wizardry, given that if wizards have a technical problem they tend to solve it with a spell rather than a technical solution, and this in turn means that you've always got to have a wizard along to keep the magic going. The other side to the discussion, of course, is that some wizards would have actively _wanted_ to meddle with muggles, to hold power over them, to enslave them. I'm sure that that tradition is equally ancient as the tradition of holding aloof, though definitely a minority tradition. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From hieya at hotmail.com Sun Oct 12 22:27:25 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:27:25 -0000 Subject: Rambling about Remus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82783 This has probably been discussed before, but I am surprised that Harry and Lupin's relationship doesn't progress as much as I thought it would when I was reading PoA. I am disappointed that JKR created such a great character as Remus Lupin, and Harry barely gets a chance to grow close to him. Harry doesn't have much in common with his dad or Sirius. He's not as "cool" as they were, nor as smart, and certainly not as arrogant. But I think he can relate to Lupin, who is a more laid-back, discerning person who knows what it feels like to be different from others. I know that Sirius did a lot for Harry (the biggest thing that he did that Remus didn't was keeping in touch with Harry in GoF). Does anyone else wonder what would have happened if Lupin had kept in touch with Harry as well, and sent him cards and gifts? At the end of PoA, Harry was a lot closer to Lupin than to Sirius, and I personally believe that, despite what Lily and James may have thought, Lupin would make a much better father than Sirius. But JKR simply got rid of him in GoF (probably so she could build a relationship between Sirius and Harry). Then, in OoP, she made him a background character, always in Sirius's shadow. Now that Sirius is gone, will Lupin be the next father figure? Somehow, I don't think he will, because I don't think Harry will be so willing to accept another parent so soon. Harry is nearly grown up now, and what can Lupin really do for him that Hagrid, Dumbledore and the Weasleys can't? So then, I ask myself, what was the point of creating such a cool character if JKR is not even going to use him in a significant way? Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs have already played huge roles in Harry's life. Will Moony do the same? greatlit2003 "Quiet!" said a hoarse voice. Professor Lupin appeared to have woken up at last. From hannahwonder at aol.com Sat Oct 11 20:49:48 2003 From: hannahwonder at aol.com (hannahwonder at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:49:48 EDT Subject: Petunia/Lilly Wedding Parties (WAS Re: New Poll for HPforGrownups) Message-ID: <197.20eda2ee.2cb9c6ec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82784 <> Now me (Hannah): I think this is very interesting; Lily seems to be a more accepting person than Petunia, given her willingness to defend (if you'd call it that) Snape to James, et al's teasing. I agree that Lily would want her sister to be in the wedding party, in which case Petunia would recognize Sirius later. However, if Petunia married Vernon before Lily and James were married, Vernon may have forbid her to go, or she may, by that time, feel too resentful/superior/etc. to want to go herself. Just a thought. Hannah From nianya_c at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 23:30:10 2003 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:30:10 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82785 > > Lliannanshe wrote: > > Ollivander places a great deal of importance on wand. "The wand > > chooses the wizard" and such. The Ministry will destroy a wizard's wand for criminal offenses. ie. Hagrid and Harry OOP. They may be "tools and not sacred" but they are an intimate part of a wizard's existence. > > Ginger Wrote: > I've viewed wands to wizards kind of like instruments to musicians. I have a good keyboard at home and I practice on it, but I always have to practice wherever it is I am playing before I actually play there. It is a matter of familiarity. With more portable instruments, (from flute to tuba) a person really can get attatched. Others just play differently. I think it is that way with wands. You get the "special" one, and no other comes close. Of course there is a more magical aspect with wands. So Ron could use Charlie's (SS p. 100 US paperback)old wand, but his own would be better, once he got used to it. Same goes for Neville. >>>> Nianya Replies: This was the point I was hinting at in the beginning of this thread. Sirius performs magic with his wand in OotP practically effortlessly (i.e. the snuff box bite which turns his hand all leathery....he merely taps his hand with the wand and it's back to normal...no mention of a verbal spell). He is certainly a very powerful wizard so maybe he can use any wand this way but it seems like the wand he has may be his own. IMHO From enjoeyment at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 08:52:36 2003 From: enjoeyment at yahoo.com (valerie) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Chapter One. [Begonias.] In-Reply-To: <3F871DC3.BDAD805B@gbronline.com> Message-ID: <20031012085236.85858.qmail@web42005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82786 RSFJenny here: > > Sorry I'm late to the Ch 1 party, but before it ends I have to > > throw in this observation about the above scene. Anyone notice > > the flowers Harry was lying in? Begonias. "Lliannanshe" wrote: > US ED > OOP pg 1 ...he had kidden himself behind a large hydrangea bush... > OOP pg 5 ...Harry fell forward over the hydrangea bush... > OOP pg 10...reduced to squatting among dying begonias... > > Harry also "stepped into the shadow of a large Lilac tree" OOP pg > 12 > > Magnolia, Petunia, Beginias, Hydrangeas, Wisteria (white flowers), > Privet (white flowers), Lilac all mentioned in Chp 1. Since the meaning of begonias came up, I looked up the others: Begonia: beware Hydrangea: frigidity, heartlessness, vanity, "thank you for understanding" Lilac: humility, youth, acceptance Magnolia: love of nature, nobility, fidelity, dignity Petunia: resentment, anger Wisteria: welcome, youth, poetry Privet: privacy? couldn't find a meaning, but the hedges *are* big enough to hide behind... --enjoeyment "Life's too short to waste time being morose about things that you can't change. My new philosophy is grin and ignore it, maybe it'll go away." "Do you think it'll work?" "Probably not but I'm sticking with it anyway." From malibu_barbieblonde at hotmail.com Sun Oct 12 13:02:41 2003 From: malibu_barbieblonde at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:02:41 -0000 Subject: Possible contact with MWPP through Marauders' Map???? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82787 Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I am new here, and I was wondering what people's views were on Harry being able to interact with the 15/16 yr old memories (I don't think that's the correct term) of MWPP through the Marauders' Map, as Snape does in PoA. (sorry no canon), went something like 'can't believe a slimy git like that ever became a professor'... As the Map seems to be able to recognise people, and give personalised responses, maybe Harry could use it and talk to his father. We know that the Map recognises what people say to it, and it's not just randomn insults designed for Snape (otherwise how would it be able to insult his ability as a Prof; in the MWPP era, they probably believed Snape would become a death eater) If he could, he may be able to learn why they were so horrible to Snape, and he could learn about how L/J got together too. Many people I know have ideas about HP going back in time, but IMO, it would be more realistic if he could just talk to them, maybe for advice/ support, or to just know more about his parents. Remeber, ATT Wormtail was still loyal. (IMO he likes to be around powerful people, and when the map was created, Voldemort would not have been at his most powerful.) I have also looked through OotP and GoF for evidence that Harry is actually still in possession of the map. In the Lexicon, it is presumed that he still has it. I was wondering if anyone knows anything to back this up? Sorry if it's already been brought up, and that it's a little long- winded. *Evil*sushi From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sat Oct 11 14:15:13 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:15:13 -0500 Subject: Speaking of wands... Message-ID: <000801c39002$182de0a0$dae279a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82788 Iggy here... Please forgive if this has already been covered, but a thought just occurred to me: Everybody has been talking about how Sirius got his wand back in PoA... I think a more important question would be how did Voldemort get HIS wand back for GoF? (Otherwise, the events of the duel wouldn't have happened as they did...) On the night he tried to kill Harry, the AK spell backlashed onto him and killed his physical body. As he even described it, he was having enough trouble keeping himself together as a spirit. In which case, I don't think he'd be able to recover his own wand. So it would have been left on his old body. If a Death Eater had been there with him, they would have tried to kill Harry as well, and done it a different way... which probably would have succeeded. And if they didn't, they would have thought LV dead, so why recover the wand? (Unless it was as a souvenir... but then, there's no indication of a DE being there at all.) Hagrid or Sirius would have destroyed the wand somehow... and even if they didn't break it and kept it for some reason, they would have no reason to give it back to him. (Unless one of them was the spy. so unlikely as to be almost absurd...) A Muggle who arrived on the scene would have either kept it as a novelty, or ignored it... not understanding what it was. Also, IIRC, wasn't the house deliberately destroyed? The wand would have gone up with the house unless it had been saved first. The only person I could think of that MIGHT have been on the scene with Voldemort would have been Peter... but if he saw Voldemort bite the big one, why would he bother to save the wand either? He wouldn't have thought that his boss was coming back at all. Comments? Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Lost your cat? Try looking under my tires." -- ABS FIRECAT (and the OTHER phrase no Squib wants to hear.) From henning2 at terra.com.br Sun Oct 12 14:45:08 2003 From: henning2 at terra.com.br (celebrimborcormacolindor) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:45:08 -0000 Subject: Peter and Gollum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82789 Sue B, you took the words from my lips. I was writing a post about the similitude between Pettigrew and Gollum when I read yours. So, I think the best thing I can do is to put my post right here. Here it goes: Recently I was reading a thread about the resemblance between Wormtail and Wormtongue (from "The Lord of the Rings") when I was suddenly struck by another similarity, between Peter Pettigrew and Gollum (also from "The Lord of the Rings"). Stay with me just for a moment and you will see what I mean. But first a SPOILER ALERT: if you haven't read the third volume of "The Lord of the Rings", the one called "The Return of the King", but intend to read it or intend to watch the third movie of the trilogy without previous knowledge of the story, stop reading this post right now, because an *immense* spoiler is coming. In "The Lord of the Rings" (book I, chapter 2), Frodo says to Gandalf that it's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance. In reply, Gandalf says that it was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand, and that Gollum will play a part, good or bad, before the end. Gandalf also suggests that in the end Bilbo's pity will affect the destinies of many people. And, of course, he is right. When Frodo comes to Mount Doom (book VI, chapter 3), he is totally possessed by the Ring, and is incapable of throwing it into the abyss to destroy it; but Gollum comes, tries to steal the Ring, stumbles, and falls in the abyss *holding the Ring*. That's how the Ring is destroyed, defeating the archvillain Sauron and resolving the story. Now, compare that with the facts which occurred in PoA. After Pettigrew's escape, when Harry was regretting having saved his life, Dumbledore said that when a wizard saves another wizard's life this creates a tie between them; and he also said that maybe one day Harry would be happy that he had saved Pettigrew's life (all this in PoA 22). I think the parallelism is clear: a hero (Bilbo/Harry) preserves the life of a villain (Gollum/Pettigrew) and the wisest of all characters (Gandalf/Dumbledore) suggests that the saved villain can play an important role in the future. I am certain that many people have found this parallelism before me, and I bet there are previous posts in HPforGrownups about this. If we carry on this parallelism, we will note that in "The Lord of the Rings" there is no transformation of Gollum, who remains a villain; but, in committing an act of villainy, he saves the world, falling in the abyss, destroying the ring and defeating Sauron. So, something similar could happen to Peter Pettigrew: he could remain a villain, but his actions could have unexpected effects (or could be unexpectedly ineffective), helping Harry against Voldemort. It's an elegant solution that justifies the words of Dumbledore in PoA 22 without requiring the radical transformation of a villain into a hero. That was my post. But ... I am sorry ... I am feeling dizzy ... (closed eyes and guttural voice now) ... the giving of the flesh ... Pettigrew's flesh ... Voldemort's body ... can touch Harry now ... Dumbledore will like to know ... his eyes will glow ... not for the blood ... but for the touch ... for the flesh! ... for the TIE! (waking up suddenly) Oh, I'm sorry, I slept just a little bit. Too much work, you know. What I was saying? - Fernando Henning (with Teeny Elf help's) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 12 22:52:05 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:52:05 -0000 Subject: Talking with paints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fernando" wrote: > Have you ever noticed that in the HP books, everyone can talk with > paintings, even of dead or imaginary people, instead of "real" > photographs which are only able to move? > Is there a painting of Harry's parents, or even of Sirius? What if... Apparently one of the "extras" in the CoS DVD (which I did not buy) is an explanation of the animated paintings. Apparently to make such a painting requires a skilled painter, special paints mixed with skin and blood of the sitter, prolonged sitting for the painting, I dunno what all. Therefore they are very expensive in money as well as time. It is unlikely that people so young as James and Lily and Sirius would be patient enough to spend so long sitting for their portraits, and that they would think it worth the money. From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sat Oct 11 17:47:48 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:47:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) References: Message-ID: <001e01c3901f$ca98bfe0$a897aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82791 > Samnanya : > > For anyone who thinks the above is a good example of > blibbering, pls read Pippin's post ....... > > I am convinced that Lupin (is/will be) the traitor to > the order ... as Pippin said in her first post, please > somebody, prove me wrong ........ please... > > One more thing.... Worse yet for my hopes of how the story > will turn out, I am a huge Luna fan, and the paths of Lupin > and Luna will definitely cross...... Luna for good and > Lupin for evil. > More on this in a later post. > Iggy here: If you also play with the names, you have more fun. (That is, if this scenario would be the one to play out...) Remus: Slain by his twin, Romulus after helping to build Rome. (Hence the name Rome, rather than Reme...) Lupin: A poisonous purple flower. Luna: A historical name for the moon, the cause of a werewolf's change and often considerer it's bane since the moon turns them into an animal and reveals the secret of who they are. Lovegood: Love-good. Someone who either loves well, or loves the side of good. Luna will be the one to reveal Lupin as the traitor and, ultimately, be Remus' downfall. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sat Oct 11 18:25:02 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:25:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) References: Message-ID: <002701c39024$fdbab540$a897aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82792 > > If nothing else, Evil!Lupin assures that Dumbledore will > either survive or be around well into Book 7 for balance. > > Samnanya > Iggy here: Just a quick counter idea in case anyone asks: "But then, why did Lupin teach Harry how to summon a Patronus to protect him from the Dementors?" Easy answer... "To make sure he was safe and alive for Voldemort to get to. If Harry's soul had been sucked out, he would have been useless to Voldemort." Just my additional two centaurs worth... Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 20:03:05 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:03:05 -0000 Subject: Who will be the Traitor In-Reply-To: <20031012122452.25476.qmail@web12504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dragonetti wrote: > So, who can it be now? IMHO, the real traitor should have a very low self esteem, so that being a traitor will make him special. (snip) I think the traitor will be someone we already know and trust, because JKR has been underlining the impact of someone turning his back on DD and the good guys since the third book. However, she has hid the traitor well, since a certain name does not pop in my head. > > Does a name pop in your head? AP: After GoF, I thought Ron would be at least tempted to betray Harry in some way. He was always talking about how awful it was to be poor, and I thought someone might try to "buy" him. But that theme seemed to disappear in OoP, and Ron found his moment in the sun thanks to Quidditch, so I don't see it happening. But that would certainly be an unexpected blow, eh? From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Sun Oct 12 20:31:42 2003 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:31:42 -0400 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031012162653.01fab140@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82794 Samnanya wrote: > > > Only thing missing is a solid evil motive. Lupin could have > > been turned just because of the prejudice that wizards have > > borne towards werewolves, but is it enough? He might not > > even be loyal to or working for Voldemort and is just acting > > as a "lone wolf" (sorry, I couldnt resist that). Now me Phil: In talking about the goblins going over to LV, in OOP, 5: "I think it depends what they're offered," said Lupin. "And I'm not talking about gold; if they're offered freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted." Lupin might be tempted by an offer from LV to cure him of being a werewolf. Phil who is finally posting. From christin.gahnstrom at telia.com Sun Oct 12 21:23:57 2003 From: christin.gahnstrom at telia.com (cgahnstrm) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:23:57 -0000 Subject: Snape: evil or good In-Reply-To: <001101c39022$fbb2e940$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82795 Mary Jo wrote: > Unfortunately, from all the statements that J.K.R. has made about Snape in interviews, he does sound like he will turn out to be completely evil, which is a great disappointment to me. I would like to seem some healing take place and for him to be a hero, broken and battered, but indeed a hero. This is my fondest wish, but I must admit it doesn't look like this will happen. >>> Didn't she say something about him being a good man, but not a nice one? Sounds exactly like the Potions Master we all know and love. I'll try to find the quote *wanders off* Nope, can't find it. Anyone else know what I'm talking about? Christin From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 12 23:30:40 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:30:40 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: <001e01c3901f$ca98bfe0$a897aec7@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > Lupin: A poisonous purple flower. Originally a white flower used for cattle feed, and named "lupin" because its throat was thought to look like a wolf's head. What is the throat of a flower? Said to be the flower thrown at people during the Floralia (a flower festival said to be dedicated to Venus) because one of Venus's titles was The Wolf, and one of the nicknames of the red light district was The Wolf Den. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Oct 12 23:35:31 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:35:31 -0000 Subject: Petunia/Lilly Wedding Parties (WAS Re: New Poll for HPforGrownups) In-Reply-To: <197.20eda2ee.2cb9c6ec@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, hannahwonder at a... wrote: > > > > Now me (Hannah): > > I think this is very interesting; Lily seems to be a more accepting person > than Petunia, given her willingness to defend (if you'd call it that) Snape to > James, et al's teasing. I agree that Lily would want her sister to be in the > wedding party, in which case Petunia would recognize Sirius later. > > However, if Petunia married Vernon before Lily and James were married, Vernon > may have forbid her to go, or she may, by that time, feel too > resentful/superior/etc. to want to go herself. Just a thought. > > Hannah My two cents: Petunia wouldn't necessarily recognize Sirius, if she were at the wedding party. I was at my cousin's wedding party a few weeks ago, and I already can't remember every single face from the groom's family and friends. I also can imagine, that if Petunia was at the wedding party (lets say to please her parents), that she would have stayed as far as possible from the wizards. And between James and Lily's wedding and Sirius' escape were over fifteen years. And Sirius looked a lot different than the Sirius from the wedding. Of course it's also possible, that she did recognize him. One of her first reactions after she heard of his escape was to look out of the window. Of course this fits with her normal behaviour, but if she knew that Sirius was James' friend and Harry's godfather, and maybe even heard that he betrayed the Potters, she really had a good reason to expect Sirius to appear in Little Whinging. But I must say, that I personally don't think, that Petunia was at the wedding. I actually can't see Vernon forbidding anything to Petunia. He is always very nice to her and Dudley, and I don't think he ever forbid them anything. I also think that it's really Petunia, who has the say in the family. Vernon is always shouting and she remains silent, but I think it's mostly because she agrees with him or doesn't care either way. But as soon as the howler arrived, she decided what should happen with Harry. Vernon could have thrown him out anyway, even if Petunia doesn't agree with it. But obviously he doesn't want to annoy her. Hickengruendler From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 12 23:57:17 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:57:17 -0000 Subject: history of wizards In-Reply-To: <004701c39108$904df5a0$0ce66151@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82798 << It depends on where you'd put the ratio of wizard:muggle (something which I deliberately soft-pedalled, given the lack of consensus on-list and the lack of a definitive answer in canon!) I tend to work on a personal rule-of-thumb ratio of 1:100, >> If the population of the UK is almost 60 million and the wizarding population of the UK is around 20,000 or 30,000, then the ratio would be around 1:2000-3000. Which suggests that many ancient vilages had no wizard at all. Or that a *lot* (90%?) of wizarding folk were killed off during the time of persecuation by Muggles. Or that wizarding folk didn't participate in the population explosion of the 20th century ... << The other side to the discussion, of course, is that some wizards would have actively _wanted_ to meddle with muggles, to hold power over them, to enslave them. I'm sure that that tradition is equally ancient as the tradition of holding aloof, though definitely a minority tradition. >> Oh, I'm not so sure it was always a miniority tradition. That's always been a very popular desire among Muggles, altho' sometimes rationalised into nationalism, claiming that we only want to help Our Nation have power and enslave other nations instead of we personally enslaving other people. And wizards are just human (fallible, eager for as much gold and life and power as they can get, etc) as Muggles. Anyway, that method is how I believe the Malfoy ancestors go so much money ... making villagers pay taxes to them or else have a dragon sicced on their village, putting villagers under Imperius to work in some kind of mine from which Malfoys sold the ore, etc. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 00:48:55 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:48:55 -0000 Subject: Snape: evil or good In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cgahnstrm" wrote: > Didn't she say something about him being a good man, but not a > nice one? Sounds exactly like the Potions Master we all know > and love. I'll try to find the quote *wanders off* > Nope, can't find it. Anyone else know what I'm talking about? > > Christin I think somebody already quoted Alberts Hall interview. I don't think though that that's what JKR said (I can be wrong, of course). I think that you are quoting Pip's words, not JRK. :o) I am betting my money on the Snape betraying the Order. I agree with Pip though that this betrayal is most likely going to be the fake one. Although with JRK you never know, of course. After OoP we know that Snape is scared of Voldemort(he did stop Harry from saying his name). After OoP we know that Snape never did get over his hatred of Harry's dad. Despite of supposedly being a superb Occlumens he lost control of his emotions to such extent that he never resumed Occlumency lessons with Harry knowing very well what problems it could cause. Someone said that Snape tried really hard to be an adult during those lessons. I'd say not even close. I see and like Snape as incredibly damaged human being who works hard to earn redemption but he is not even close to the end of the road yet in my opinion. It is possible that Snape's fate would lie in Harry's hands somewhere in book 7 and Harry will be forced to make a some kind of final decision whether he should trust Snape. I think he will pass this test with flying colors. :o) If they both survive by the end of the book 7, does it mean that Snape will continue torturing Harry's kids in a years to come? :) Alla From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Mon Oct 13 00:50:52 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:50:52 -0000 Subject: James and Snape was OT:To Jeff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > - Jeff: > > But how long was it after the pensive that the other incident > > occured? A few months? I'm still not convinced that after > torturing Snape daily, as Draco does the trio, that one day after > he might've performed another prank that suddenly he'd decide > that he has to go against his best friend for a geek he hates. > > > > Would James want snape dead? Maybe not, but let's not > forget that we don't know what spell Snape intended to use on > James, and that he started to draw his wand first. I'm guessing > that James knew about what was planned much earlier, but > might've changed his mind, or been asked to stop it by > someone else.<< > Pippin: > Harry saved Peter, who helped murder his parents, from Sirius > and Lupin who were ready to kill. Harry didn't want Sirius and > Lupin to become killers, despite having every reason to hate and > despise Peter. Might not James have felt the same way? > Jeff: There isn't enough evidence in canon to make a qualified judgement on what James was really like. I could be foolish and say that you're correct, or even state that you're wrong and he was a total arse. Since I see no real evidence either way, I'd have to state that I don't know. Personally, I'd have killed Snape, or let the others do it. :) Pippin: > Being a bully doesn't mean you'd kill your victim--bullies want > their victims alive so they can abuse them some more. As > Quirrell says, Snape hates Harry, but he never wanted him dead. > Jeff: That is true in most cases. Some bullies (and their victims) have been known to kill. I don't really think of James as a total bully, since we only see *Snape's* memory of that day. Not what he had done to James earlier nor anything else to give any indication of how things became what they were on that day. While I agree that victims of abuse do become abusers themselves, judging by the fact that Snape was a slimy git even then, leads me to believe that his "warm and caring" attitude that he shows today was perhaps present even then. Perhaps James, like Harry, didn't like it, but James was in more of a postion to do something about it than Harry is, since Harry is a student and Snape a Professor. Pippin: > The precipitating factor for the Prank wasn't something that > Snape had done, but the fear of what he could do, now that he > knew where Lupin went. Snape would be watching the Willow > and that would put a stop to the Marauders' werewolf > walkabouts. That gives Lupin the best motive for killing Snape, > but Sirius might have been persuaded or manipulated into > helping him do it. > > Suppose James had done nothing. Snape's death would have > seemed to be a horrible accident . There'd be no Snape around > to say that Sirius had told him how to get into the Willow. The > Hogwarts governors would want the whole thing hushed up, so > in the ensuing cover-up, Sirius and Lupin might have escaped > exposure. A desperate gamble, but for Lupin, who says that his > friends' company was the only thing that made his > transformations bearable, it might have been worth it. > > > James didn't only save Snape, he caught him out of bounds. > The Willow was forbidden because of Davy Gudgeon's eye. > Snape could have been expelled if he was caught there again. > Ergo, no more spying, and the Marauders' secret remained safe. > Whether James deliberately waited to interfere until Snape had > entered the Willow, we don't know. > > Jeff: The fact is, we don't know all the details. What has Snape done prior to that day? Had he been spreading his usual joy and happiness he's known for to them for 4 years? Had he attacked each of them prior, and cost them points, or even some worse punishment? We don't know. To present Snape as the helpless victim based upon one scene is silly. Snape appears to be the same punter he's shown to be in all 5 books. Again, I say that at this time, somebody, namely James, was getting the best of him, something nobody has been able to do since. Snape was looking for a way to make real trouble for the boys, and I'm sure that Sirius never really thought that any harm would come to him. Sirius is a prankster, and a big kid, but not a murderer, regardless of how it might look. I really think that had Snape been harmed seriously, that aside from a few bravado based remarks in public, he would've been horrified that any real harm or death became of a prank. Even if it was Snape. What about James' actions? I'm guessing that maybe he was told of the plan right before he ran out there, and he realized the danger that Sirius didn't. Or as I said before, he hadn't planned on doing anything until he thought it over, or maybe after Lily somehow found out and pointed it out to him. There are countless reasons that we can only guess at and hope that we're told which one is correct by Jo someday. ;) Jeff From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 01:10:39 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:10:39 -0000 Subject: Snape: evil or good In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > I think somebody already quoted Alberts Hall interview. I don't think > though that that's what JKR said (I can be wrong, of course). > I think that you are quoting Pip's words, not JRK. :o) > > I am betting my money on the Snape betraying the Order. I agree with > Pip though that this betrayal is most likely going to be the fake > one. Although with JRK you never know, of course. > > After OoP we know that Snape is scared of Voldemort(he did stop Harry > from saying his name). > After OoP we know that Snape never did get over his hatred of Harry's > dad. Despite of supposedly being a superb Occlumens he lost control > of his emotions to such extent that he never resumed Occlumency > lessons with Harry knowing very well what problems it could cause. > Someone said that Snape tried really hard to be an adult during those > lessons. I'd say not even close. > > I see and like Snape as incredibly damaged human being who works hard > to earn redemption but he is not even close to the end of the road > yet in my opinion. > > It is possible that Snape's fate would lie in Harry's hands somewhere > in book 7 and Harry will be forced to make a some kind of final > decision whether he should trust Snape. > > I think he will pass this test with flying colors. :o) > If they both survive by the end of the book 7, does it mean that > Snape will continue torturing Harry's kids in a years to come? :) > > Alla I am sorry for replying to myself, but I really wanted to add something to my post. Someone said that Snape is too ambiguous character at this point in the series for him to be a traitor. I disagree. He may be ambiguous or even a villain for Harry, but I think the majority of the readers are sure as of now that Snape serves light. :o) By the way, if the attempt of the real betrayal is going to happen. I am putting my money on Ron. The seeds have been planted very well indeed. Who says that past should repeat itself with 100% similarity? Shouldn't Harry generation be better than their parents? Maybe Ron will realise in time that he is being set up? Alla From lziner at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 01:17:38 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:17:38 -0000 Subject: Rambling about Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > > I am disappointed that JKR created > such a great character as Remus Lupin, and Harry barely gets a > chance to grow close to him. I disagree. Harry was quite upset when Lupin resigned in PoA. he couldn't do anything about it but he went to see him. He had a established a bond. > Harry doesn't have much in common with his dad or Sirius. He's not > as "cool" as they were, nor as smart, and certainly not as arrogant. > But I think he can relate to Lupin, who is a more laid-back, > discerning person who knows what it feels like to be different from > others. I agree completely. > Then, in OoP, she made him a > background character, always in Sirius's shadow. I think that Remus stays away from Harry out of respect for the position of godfather Sirius holds. Otherwise, I think he would have tried to be more involved. In his mind, it's Sirius' place not his. unless (Advance Guard) Sirius cannot assist Harry. > Now that Sirius is gone, will Lupin be the next father figure? I hope so...really. He needs someone like Lupin. Only Lupin feels the loss of Sirius as strongly (or close to) as Harry. Harry lost his godfather. Remus lost his only remaining friend. Remeber, a friend he only just got back. I think we will see more of Remus in 6 & (hopefully) 7. Maybe teaching Harry Occlumency ? Lziner - who will never be convinced that Lupin is ESE! From lziner at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 01:30:07 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:30:07 -0000 Subject: James and Snape vs. Harry and Peter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cookiemacster" wrote: > Just a thought: Having read numerous posts and not seeing anything > about this, I decided I'd pick your brains on the subject! > Okay, I was curious if you all think there is a "magical bond" > between James and Snape, like there (supposedly) is between Harry > and Peter. > At the end of book 3 Dumbledore tells Harry that by > allowing Peter to live, saving his life, Peter is now in debt to > him. Would Snape, by being saved by James, be in some way in debt to > James? If so, did Snape ever repay James? Maybe James died before > Snape could repay his debt and in a future book he will do so by > svaing/helping Harry...? > When Quirrel (Voldemort) was trying to hurt Harry during the quidditch match in SS, Snape was countering the spell. I don't have the book handy. However, I remember Hermoine setting Snapes robe on fire - thinking he was hexing Harry. On that occasion, Snape may have been saving Harry as repayment to James. lziner From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 03:46:58 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:46:58 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al In-Reply-To: <001501c38f99$148f26c0$448baec7@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: Fred Waldrop wrote: As LV said in GoF, pg 651 paperback, US, "The dementors will join us... they are our natural allies..." So, if the dementors are LV "natral allies", and DD seems to think they will go over to LV as soon as he ask them to, it only seems logical that they were his followers in the "first war". Iggy McSnurd wrote: Ummm... I cited canon about where Petunia found out. What other "awful boy" could she have been referring to who might have told Lilly about the Dementors? I don't think that JKR would be lying to her readers about how Petunia found out about the Dementors. For one thing, she doesn't really have any reason to. Bookworm: If Fred's idea about the dementors being LV's allies in the last war is true, it doesn't make sense that the Ministry would put them in charge of guarding the Death Eaters in Azkaban. However, Iggy, I read that scene with Petunia totally differently. I think she is lying through her teeth, and made the comment about "that awful boy" to cover-up something else. "She looked quite appalled..." "...she said jerkily." "She seemed horribly flustered." (OoP p31-32, US). Would JKR lie to her readers? No, but she will mislead them. And in this case, it's not JKR possibly lying, it's Petunia. JKR has indicated that if she wants information put out with a stamp of authority, she uses Dumbledore and Hermione. Nope, IMHO, Petunia is hiding a guilty secret. Ravenclaw Bookworm From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 04:00:03 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 04:00:03 -0000 Subject: Who will be the Traitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "augustinapeach" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dragonetti > wrote: > > So, who can it be now? IMHO, the real traitor should have a very > low self esteem, so that being a traitor will make him special. > (snip) I think the traitor will be someone we already know and > trust, He's someone we already know - someone we never trusted - someone who has already betrayed the Order once - and he's someone who, short of chopping off his head, the Order can't afford to get rid off - could it be Kreacher? - CMC From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 05:02:36 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 05:02:36 -0000 Subject: Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82806 Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter (OOP, Chap 25) To the tune of See You Later Alligator by Bill Haley & The Comets Dedicated to Eric Oppen (who's also filked of Rita) Hear a MIDI at: http://svc403.bne025u.server-web.com/midi/aligator.mid THE SCENE: The Three Broomsticks. HERMIONE, proving that she is as adept a conspirator as the most accomplished Slytherin alumni, launches a plot to get HARRY's story before the wizarding public. HARRY: Well, I came to see ol' Hermy in the Three Broomsticks today Well, I saw she was with Luna, and the Beetle who's at bay "What's all this?," I had to wonder. This is what I heard her say: HERMIONE: Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter, help us foil Crabbe & Goyle Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter, help us foil Crabbe & Goyle Do not spill your Margarita, Set the Malfoy blood to boil SKEETER When I think of what I could say, makes me wanna grab my quill You won't like the things I would say, you want DE beans to spill But The Prophet will not print it. A pro-Potter piece they'll kill HERMIONE & LUNA Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter, do a scribbler for The Quibbler Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter, do a scribbler for The Quibbler Though it is a bit offbeat-ah, And your fee won't be too liberal . LUNA Herm said, I'm sorry little Rita, but you can only write the truth Herm said, I'm sorry little Rita, but you have gotta write the truth All your slanders, you'll delete `em And add nothing that is uncouth HERMIONE & LUNA Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter, or it's jail without fail Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter, or it's jail without fail As an Azkaban insider They'll pay big bucks to hear your tale . HERMIONE: I said take the minutes, Skeeter, you know you haven't any choice I said take our minutes, Rita, you know you haven't any choice You'll win Hogwarts as your readers When you help Harry gain his voice HERMIONE, LUNA & HARRY Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter, the Dark Lord can't be ignored Write of Eaters, Rita Skeeter, the Dark Lord can't be ignored Be once more the top Fleet Street-er With quill as mighty as the sword! HERMIONE (spoken): OK, Harry? Ready to tell the public the truth? Fire away, then, Rita . - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From zanelupin at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 05:11:46 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 05:11:46 -0000 Subject: Killer!Lupin (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82807 Hi everyone! Even though I should be in bed I need to respond to this assertion that Lupin killed Sirius. Not because I have any burning desire to prove it incorrect. Rather I agree wholeheartedly that Lupin did it. I like to call him Killer!Lupin, myself. Anyway, I am replying to a couple of Samnaya's posts, as well as others on the subject, with a lot of snipping. If you want to know what was said, hit the upthread and check out the replies at the bottom as well. Samnaya: >In the climactic battle at the MoM, the one assumption that everyone seems to make including Harry is that Bellatrix killed Sirius. Even Harry says so in no uncertain terms..... but on a careful reread and reread again and under the assumption that Lupin is evil, I am not so sure anymore.....< KathyK: It even works if Lupin is not evil. Initially I thought Lupin did it because he was in cahoots with Dumbledore. I now believe differently, but I still think there is evidence that Lupin could have killed Sirius without being Evil. That's why I call him Killer! Lupin rather than Evil!Lupin. Because he fits in a couple different theories. Samnaya: >{{Harry saw the light hit -- he did NOT NECESSARILY see who attacked Sirius, just that Sirius was hit. Harry ASSUMED it was Bellatrix who did the hitting. I had assumed that Sirius and Bellatrix were fighting up close and that Bellatrix was on the dais with Sirius - that is not necessarily the case. SIRIUS was on the dais because he later fell into the veil and didnt jump up or down after he was mortally wounded, but Bellatrix could have been anywhere. Her later battle with Harry was all done at a distance!}}.< KathyK: As I said earlier, I agree that it was Lupin. However, for clarification there is reason to believe that Bellatrix was on the dais with Sirius. "As Harry scrambled up again he looked around and saw Malfoy smash into the dais on which Sirius and Bellatrix were now dueling." (OoP, US edition 804) While no further mention of where Bellatrix is in relation to Sirius, it is entirely possible that Bellatrix and Sirius were still on the dais together. I tend to think so. However, it can't be proven. Samnaya from 82770: >>Only thing missing is a solid evil motive. Lupin could have been turned just because of the prejudice that wizards have borne towards werewolves, but is it enough? He might not even be loyal to or working for Voldemort and is just acting as a "lone wolf" (sorry, I couldnt resist that).<< KathyK: It's possible he could be acting alone. In that case, though, why kill Sirius if not to further Voldemort's cause by hurting Harry? Could it be that Lupin's just grown so bitter and angry over the years toward Sirius who helped ruin his life by tricking Snape into the passage under the Whomping Willow? (Apologies to Kneasy, I believe he's the one who threw something along these lines out there a while ago) Has Lupin been planning for this ever since Sirius escaped and has been biding his time for the right moment to strike? It doesn't seem likely as Lupin had plenty of opportunity through the year to do Sirius in. And where was he during Harry's fourth year? Did he have contact with Sirius then? If Lupin was alone in killing Sirius out of spite or anger, there were easier ways with less exposure. And he could have still blamed it on someone else. An auror or a random dutiful citizen who caught sight of Sirius. I'm sure it wouldn't have been hard for Lupin to lure the bored, stir crazy Sirius out of Grimmauld place. No, Lupin is being the dutiful spy for Voldemort. But when the opportunity did arise at the DoM, he took his shot, literally. Yes, he took a huge risk of being exposed, but as Samnaya points out, the only members of the order still standing at the end when Sirius died were Dumbledore, who was busy with the Death Eaters and had his back turned, and Kingsley, whose whereabouts are unknown as far as I can figure. Samnaya in 82773: >>>What follows is a possible explanation as to why Lupin did not want Harry to go after Bellatrix<<< KathyK: Here I interpreted things differently. I saw Lupin's feeble effort to keep Harry with him as Lupin wanting Harry to follow Bellatrix, which would lead him to where Voldemort could more easily get to Harry and the prophecy (he didn't know it was broken) out of Dumbledore's sight. I don't think Bellatrix would have mentioned Lupin killing Sirius to Harry because for one the two of them are on the same side and even if she didn't know previously that Lupin was one of them, she knew when he killed his own best friend. Yes I still think Lupin considered Sirius a friend and I do know that's messed up. But think about it. Lupin does display what has been interpreted as grief at Sirius' death. Is he feeling guilty, perhaps? Additionally, Harry thinks Bellatrix and that works to her advantage as she's able to taunt Harry about it. "What did you come after me for, then? I thought you were here to avenge my dear cousin!" (OoP, US edition, 810) Note, too, that Bellatrix doesn't *actually* take credit for killing Sirius. Samnaya also in 82773: >>>... and are her "you should know" and "he is here" referring to the same person? Wouldnt it be interesting if what Bella was TRYING to say before she was interrupted was "Master you should know that I didnt kill the Animagus Black - Remus Lupin did!" Wouldnt Bellatrix want the credit for killing Black if she had done so, particularly if she screwed up getting LV the prophecy? Why "I was fighting the Animagus Black" why not "I was busy killing the Animagus Black"? She likes bragging that she is the Dark Lord's most loyal servant; what better way to get forgiveness and grovelling points than by bragging.<<< KathyK: Once again, I don't think that telling Voldemort that Lupin killed Sirius is foremost on her mind. More likely she's just coming up with excuses for failing so Voldemort won't torture her. As far as the "fighting" versus "killing" thing, "fighting" sounds longer, more ongoing than "killing," which could be as brief as a well placed AK. Besides, what would be the point of her announcing that Lupin killed Sirius at this particular moment? It's completely irrelvant to the important things going on such as Dumbledore being in the same building and that he's likely to appear at any moment to aid Harry. To conclude this portion, I think Lupin let Harry go after Bellatrix and she didn't tell Harry because it's to her advantage to let him think she did it and that Lupin is still one of the good guys. So we simply have different takes on this particular sequence of events. Phil in 82794 on Lupin's motivation: >>>>Now me Phil: In talking about the goblins going over to LV, in OOP, 5: "I think it depends what they're offered," said Lupin. "And I'm not talking about gold; if they're offered freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted." Lupin might be tempted by an offer from LV to cure him of being a werewolf.<<<< Or perhaps Voldemort simply had to offer Lupin the chance to be free to choose a job, earn a living, and wear clothes without patches and holes. Lupin is not stupid. He knows his own condition. He'd need proof that Voldemort had the cure, which I don't think he does. I don't think Lupin is under the impression that Voldemort is going to make great strides for him in Human-Werewolf relations but perhaps Voldemort offered Lupin himself these freedoms and he's decided not to worry about other werewolves. Maybe Voldemort offered studious Lupin control of Hogwarts. Tanya in post 82774: >>>>>Another scene came to mind. Remember after Harry is thrown out of Snapes office after the pensive (sp) issue. He then goes to talk to Lupin and Sirus. The gist of it is that Sirus really wants to run and have words to Snape, but Lupin strongly insists he is the one to do it, then we have no canon saying he actually did.<<<<< KathyK: And it makes Lupin look like the good, caring friend we all think he is, doesn't it? He's concerned for Sirius' safety and possibly for Snape as well. He makes it look like he's got everyone's best interest at heart while ensuring the Occlumency lessons wouldn't continue. Snape gets the blame for stopping the lessons. No one questions Lupin about it. I just had an "Oooh, Oooh" moment. The only ones who knew about Lupin's plan to talk to Snape were Harry and Sirius. What if Lupin told Sirius he *had* talked to Snape *and* he'd restarted the Occlumency lessons? In the aftermath of the battle, if Sirius had lived, it would have come out that Lupin was supposed to talk to Snape. Sirius believed Lupin had and thought the lessons continued. He would have found out differently after the battle and would have brought to light Lupin's lie, thus blowing Lupin's cover. So Lupin, though it pained him to do so, had to make sure Sirius did not survive the battle. And he'd leave Harry, the only other one who could expose him, to Voldemort. And yes, Harry survived but he's not in any condition to remember at that time Lupin saying he'd talk to Snape. Besides, it's much more comforting for Harry to hate Snape in peace than it would be to think unpleasant thoughts about his godfather's best friend. Lupin doesn't have much to worry about from Harry for the time being. Harry will just assume Lupin did talk to him and Snape that slimeball still didn't listen. Or else Harry thinks Lupin was too busy to talk to Snape. KathyK (who has more to say on Killer!Lupin but should have gone to bed two hours ago) From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 06:42:54 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:42:54 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82808 > Allie: why does everyone seem to think that someone will betray the Order? Is it something that JKR said or just that in every saga there must be a betrayal? It would just about break my heart if it turns out to be any of the people that everyone around here suspects (RON, Molly, > Lupin...) Don't worry, it won't be any of those. It's gonna be Bill Weasley. Erin From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 13 07:42:33 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 07:42:33 -0000 Subject: Speaking of wands... In-Reply-To: <000801c39002$182de0a0$dae279a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > Everybody has been talking about how Sirius got his wand back in > PoA... I think a more important question would be how did Voldemort get HIS > wand back for GoF? I have a theory on wands, but it's pure speculation. I take Ollivander's words about wand and wizard matching. The wand consists of two components - the wood and the core. I think even wands made of the same type of wood and core (e.g. two holly wands with phoenix feather core) would be different. Which tree (not just which type of tree), when it was cut, which magical creasture gave the core, not just which type of creature, and when - all that combined makes each wand unique. In the case of a phoenix, I even wonder whether feathers from two different incarnations are as linked as feathers from the same incarnation. For example, the feathers in Harry's and Voldemort's wand were apparently given at about the same time - as indicated by DD saying that Ollivander wrote to tell him that Harry bought the "second wand". Of course we all know that these two wands are linked. But will wands made with the two new feathers shed in OoP (if any will be made) also work against them, or just against each other? The phoenix was reborn at least once (in CoS) between the two events. Now if we assume that each wand is unique, and since new wands keep being made and old ones get back into circulation through passing them between generations - what then is the chance that when a random 11 year old walks in the shop, they'll find the perfect match for them? I think very low. I think that in most cases, the kids get *a* wand that matches them better than the others in the shop, but it is not necessarily the perfect fit. As they grow, they may go back and then find a better fitting wand. This is probably why Ron ended up with Bill's old wand - Bill found a wand that fit him better. I think that only in very rare situations there is a perfect match right off - perhaps it is rare for a wizard to get a perfect match at all. Both Harry's and Voldemort's are perfect matches though. What is the significance of that? I think that when one has found the perfectly matching wand, that wand will not be destroyed or lost to them as long as they live (or exist in Voldemort's case :-)). The wand will somehow find its way back to its owner through circumstances that may seem accidental perhaps but pretty much pre- ordained. Thus, when Crouch Jr. steals Harry's wand and creates the Dark Mark, he gets stunned and drops the wand - just where Harry happens to be! Accident? I think somehow the wand "made" him make the Dark Mark right where Harry was, sensing that its real owner is near (a bit like Sauron and his Ring in LOTR :-)). Likewise, a set of seemingly random events ensure that Voldemort's wand gets returned to him, but really they had to happen, because like Harry's, Voldemort's wand is a perfect match for him and therefore has to return to him as soon as he is able to hold a wand. I have no idea how common that "perfect match" is. Was Sirius' wand in OoP the same one he had when he was arrested and sent to Azkaban? We have no information to say either way. We know that James and Lily's school wands were not perfect matches and presumably were replaced later (Ollivander tells Harry how he remembers his parents buying their "first wand" - implying there was a second and maybe more). My guess is that perfect matches are extremely rare and maybe only very special wizards (Voldemort, DD, Harry) get them - that the fates that create such unique wizards somehow manage to have their perfect wand in store when they are ready. All pure speculation of course, but it seems plausible to me... Salit From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 13 07:54:03 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 07:54:03 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: <002701c39024$fdbab540$a897aec7@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > Just a quick counter idea in case anyone asks: "But then, why did Lupin > teach Harry how to summon a Patronus to protect him from the Dementors?" > > Easy answer... "To make sure he was safe and alive for Voldemort to get to. > If Harry's soul had been sucked out, he would have been useless to > Voldemort." Sorry I don't buy it. Lupin is such a *decent* person there is no way in my mind that he could be the traitor. Noone has ever described Peter as a "nice" person - he was described as a tag-along weakling by his teachers in PoA and was shown in quite a disgusting light during the pensieve incident. I have yet to see one action by Lupin that will show his base nature, and we have seen quite a lot of him - both in PoA and OoP And as for the quote above, there is a lot more evidence in OoP that Snape was weakening Harry's defenses against Voldemort during the occlumency lessons, yet there seems to be a complete refusal here to believe that poor little abused tortured Snape could ever be the bad guy. I am not saying that he is (yet), but that there is much less evidence against Lupin as there is against Snape. Salit (who will believe that Lupin is the traitor only if she sees it in print - inside a JKR HP book). From dfran at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 13 08:55:15 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:55:15 -0000 Subject: Who will be the Traitor In-Reply-To: <20031012122452.25476.qmail@web12504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dragonetti wrote: > I for one, used to think that Neville might be the > traitor. He tries to not to cause trouble, and he is > not the most cunning one, so he might be mislead > easily. I know that is exactly betraying, but... > Anyway, since OoP, I don't think so anymore. He has > shown courage before, in SS when he stood up to Harry > and co. and DD wisely rewarded him for it, but also > now that he has started to show some real powers so he > will have much more self esteem, maybe even enough to > cause trouble. > > So, who can it be now? IMHO, the real traitor should > have a very low self esteem, so that being a traitor > will make him special. Also he/she should have some > inside information to betray. Percy for example, does > not have inside information, though I can't see him > giving them to Voldemort willingly and knowingly. The > Ministry, maybe, but not to Voldemort. Snape won't be > the one, either I think. First of all it would be too > cliche, and second of all he has his own reasons for > betraying Voldemort, though we don't know them yet. > However I bet it was him, who learned that V. was > after James and Lily and told DD. Though he detested > James, and look down on Lily for being Muggle born, so > maybe it wasn't him. But then again, we don't know any > other people who has betrayed V. Also an intersting > point is that he has been teaching potions for 14 > years, so he must be employed right after V. downfall, > meaning he was a full time Death Eater before that. > Anyway, I drifted away from the subject. > > I think the traitor will be someone we already know > and trust, because JKR has been underlining the impact > of someone turning his back on DD and the good guys > since the third book. However, she has hid the traitor > well, since a certain name does not pop in my head. > > Does a name pop in your head? DeeDee here: Yes a name or too does pop into my head. Namely Ron..not that it would be intentional.....but loose lips sink ships...be wary of what people say infront of fold like percy. The Creeveys..are also suspect to me...always taking pictures and the idolastic worship of Harry no matter what...most characters we see in the books will float back and forth according to 1. public opinion or 2. just maintaining a friendship with all that tween and teen drama! Also watchout for any elf befriending Hermione...they are suspect after OOp because we know they show loyalty to their "family"(could it be Dobby???? Not that it was Dobby's choice...but it could be him). It may well be one of the professors(other than snape...he's too obvious...the one professor we hear about the most but not hear FROM the most is prof. Flitwick.... It may well be DD...I could too easily imagine DD (esp. at the end of oop) selling out(emotionally and unintentionally) Harry because "he thought it would improve Harry's quality of life". I still believe that it will be Lupin who is Harry's greatest ally in the end...and I believe that James is not dead, but did a switching spell with Lupin...(will post cannon on this upon request) Such a depressing post.. Especially since we hear of DD's brother convicted on committing unatural acts with a goat and things happening in a taver that smells of goats.... why is this? Especially considering how many people DD has rescued from far worse-- Sirius, Snape, Lupin, Hagrid, etc. etc.. I don't really KNOW, but I have ideas.... Typically those who will betray you will tell you in some way beforehand--so JKR has handed us Hermione(firebolt), Ron (jealousy), DD, (not talking/avoiding harry all through oop), Snape (incessant teasing/bullying), Seamus and his other "dorm-mate" whose parents disagree with their beliefs. Actually the character Harry trusts the most yet has never betrayed him was Hagrid. Who has probably been there for him more than anyone. If you talk about who will betray Harry, you also have to talk about who will sacrifice themselves for him. So that's the major question---who is/are going to sacrifice themself/themselves for Harry, also who is/are the folk who will betray him? DeeDee From lmbolland at earthlink.net Mon Oct 13 09:57:19 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:57:19 -0000 Subject: Luna's Name (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: <001e01c3901f$ca98bfe0$a897aec7@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82812 > > Iggy here: > > If you also play with the names, you have more fun. (That is, if this > scenario would be the one to play out...) > > Luna: A historical name for the moon, the cause of a werewolf's change and > often considerer it's bane since the moon turns them into an animal and > reveals the secret of who they are. > Lovegood: Love-good. Someone who either loves well, or loves the side of > good. > > > Luna will be the one to reveal Lupin as the traitor and, ultimately, be > Remus' downfall. Have you ever read The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge? It was JKR's favorite book as a child. The main character in that book is a Moon Princess. In the story, there is one Moon Princess per generation who is chosen and given an opportunity to fulfill a prophecy made in the time of Edward I - to rid the Dark Forest of the evil people who live there and free her kingdom and it's people from evil. Of course, THIS moon princess (Maria) succeeds, but since the prophecy every single other Moon Princess has failed. (We meet a former Moon Princess in the story named Loveday Minette, called so because all Moon Princess "love the day".) Part of the prophecy is that the Moon Princess must marry a man "beneath" her. To me, Luna Lovegood is very like the female character in The Little White Horse in temperment and personality. Luna=Moon (of course, we all know) and I believe Lovegood is a hint at Loveday. I think in Potterverse _that_ Luna is JKR's own version of a "moon princess" and after reading TLWH, I'm wondering about a future Harry/Luna ship. If "Love" is the power in the Dept. of Mysteries, the power the Dark Lord "knows not", who better than a Lovegood to have on your side? And most would see Luna as "beneath" Harry. BTW, Goudge wraps up everyone's stories VERY nicely in the end (all with "ships) - they all live and die happily ever after. I've heard that JKR has written the final ending of her characters as well. FWIW, the Moon Princess ends up defeating THEM (the evil men) by making peace (in a way) and utterly reforming them. She does so in a powerful and brave way, not in Chamberlainesque peacemaking, so the book is quite exciting. In fact, she reforms everyone around her - her guardian, the former Moon Princess, her governess, and even the local Parson. (I don't think the dwarf is reformed, but he didn't really need it.) BTW, if we want to draw too many parallels between JKR's favorite childhood book and the HP saga, Dumbledore defeated a dangerous Dark Wizard ONE generation ago and Harry is prophesied to defeat a Dark Wizard in THIS generation. I suspect Harry is destined to defeat the FINAL Dark Wizard and free the wizarding world of evil, in Moon Princess fashion... perhaps bringing peace and not death as he worries? Lauri B From lmbolland at earthlink.net Mon Oct 13 10:23:11 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:23:11 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82813 pippin wrote: > Well said! We are looking for someone who is supposed to be > nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal > personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, > Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know > which one I'd pick. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362 > > I'll be updating the theory one of these days. My assessment of > ESE!Lupin's motives is out of date. Even I have trouble imagining > him as a maddog killer, but what if his motive is political? He's a > man with a Cause, and that's always dangerous. > > Pippin Lauri writes: Well, Sirius & James (and Lily?) once suspected Lupin, and it was actually Peter - the LAST person they'd suspect. So, I tend _not_ to think it's Lupin. I don't think it'll be anyone from the "older" generations either. I suspect the one to betray the order will come from Harry's generation, it's THEIR story this time. I agree that it'll be someone who we trust, but whom we trust NOT because he's been written as trustworthy, but because he seems SO incompetent and SUCH an incapable, bumbling, nerveless wizard/witch that he's the LAST person we suspect. Take Ginny, for example, in CoS. On our first reading, we certainly didn't suspect shy little Ginny of anything worse than crushing on Harry, and here she's killing roosters, scrawling all over the walls, and in cahoots with the Dark Lord. To that end, who else fits? (As Pippin asked.) Before OOP, I might have said Neville (tho I'm biased toward him - just love the character) but post OOP I say he does NOT fit the profile. How about Colin Creevy? We haven't heard much from him in a while, tho. Why not Cho Chang? She's not much of a witch ("expelly-umius") and she certainly doesn't _seem_ the type to betray the DA. She's also seemingly nothing more than a shallow, needy (high maintenance) girl. True, she's no longer "close" to Harry. It seems it might have to be one of the MOM Six. (Those six students who went to the MOM together: Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, & Luna.) It won't be Harry, Ginny's already betrayed them, and I believe Luna has a different purpose. (See my post on Luna today being the Moon Princess from JKR's fav childhood book.) That doesn't leave us too many choices. :( Speaking of the MOM Six, did anyone notice the strange parallel to the tv show Friends? It contains a brother/sister team (Ross/Monica - Ron/Ginny) a "popular guy" (Joey - Harry), a geek (Ross - Neville), a "smart girl"(Monica - Hermione), a cool/popular girl (Rachel - Ginny), and a very spacey blonde (Phoebe - Luna). Granted, the delineations aren't cut and dried between the characters, but it struck me as odd and funny whilst reading those particular chapters! Lauri B. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 13 10:34:27 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:34:27 -0000 Subject: Killer!Lupin (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82814 So, as the character assassins gather round Remus like a bunch of hungry sharks, a few thoughts occur to me: Samnaya: >>In the climactic battle at the MoM, the one assumption that everyone seems to make including Harry is that Bellatrix killed Sirius. Even Harry says so in no uncertain terms..... but on a careful reread and reread again and under the assumption that Lupin is evil, I am not so sure anymore.....>> KathyK: >It even works if Lupin is not evil. Initially I thought Lupin did it because he was in cahoots with Dumbledore. I now believe differently, but I still think there is evidence that Lupin could have killed Sirius without being Evil. That's why I call him Killer! Lupin rather than Evil!Lupin. Because he fits in a couple different theories. However, for clarification there is reason to believe that Bellatrix was on the dais with Sirius. "As Harry scrambled up again he looked around and saw Malfoy smash into the dais on which Sirius and Bellatrix were now dueling." (OoP, US edition 804) While no further mention of where Bellatrix is in relation to Sirius, it is entirely possible that Bellatrix and Sirius were still on the dais together. I tend to think so. However, it can't be proven.> Okayyyy , so how about a little compromise? I'll take your Killer!Lupin and give you Assassin With Dodgy Aim!Lupin. Bellatrix and Sirius are up on the dais. Bellatrix uses a spell which produces a red jet of light - we assume this is a Stunner, but then we haven't been told what colour the Crustacius curse, for example, produces. Perhaps Bellatrix's "red light" spell was something so Unforgivable within the rules of duelling that Remus felt obliged to step in and help his friend - by eliminating Bellatrix. BUT - the duel is moving too fast, there's too much confusion to get a proper aim, he fires, and in an instant, someone else steps into the jet meant for Ms B. Lestrange... Heartbreak, remorse, guilt... No? You don't like that one? I wonder why. Possibly because it doesn't quite fit with the description in the book? Let's look at that again...new paragraph for dramatic emphasis, JK, well done... The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. *Squarely* on the chest. *Squarely*. Right in the centre. As though it was meant for his chest (hey, I can do these one sentence-emphasis things too...). So whoever hit him would have to be facing him dead on. In a duelling situation, who is most likely to be facing one of the opponents dead on? Is it a) The other opponent? or b) a spectator watching from a lowered position in relation to the duelling couple? Right. For Lupin, or Dumbledore, or anyone other than Bellatrix to have fired that shot, they would have had to be exactly behind Bellatrix, on the same level, waiting for her to bob down out of the way so that they could hit Sirius. And, from the little we know about her, is Bellatrix likely to give off a "triumphant scream" at the death of an enemy if someone else had robbed her of the pleasure of killing him? What's that? Very true. It *could* be a misinterpretation - Harry assumes that it is a triumphant scream when it's really a scream of frustration. But I don't think that screams of triumph ("woohoo! I've done it! Whoseya mamma?") sound too much like screams of frustration ("ARRRRRGH! NO! WHY DID YOU DO THAT? HE WAS MINE!")even to the grief-stricken ear. Oh, wait, there's more. Phil wrote: >>In talking about the goblins going over to LV, in OOP, 5: "I think it depends what they're offered," said Lupin. "And I'm not talking about gold; if they're offered freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted." Lupin might be tempted by an offer from LV to cure him of being a werewolf.>> Kathy K: >Or perhaps Voldemort simply had to offer Lupin the chance to be free to choose a job, earn a living, and wear clothes without patches and holes. Lupin is not stupid. He knows his own condition. He'd need proof that Voldemort had the cure, which I don't think he does. I don't think Lupin is under the impression that Voldemort is going to make great strides for him in Human-Werewolf relations but perhaps Voldemort offered Lupin himself these freedoms and he's decided not to worry about other werewolves.> Kirstini rolls up her sleeves and affixes a know-it-all, Hermione-y expression to her face. 1.) Lupin does care about other werewolves. Think about the scene in Arthur's hospital ward, where Lupin toddles over to reassure the new werewolf that it isn't all that bad after all. 2.) No, Lupin isn't stupid. He is however all too aware that Voldemort's Brave New World is going to be one populated by extremely violent racists. Racists who don't like people like him, because he isn't a pure-blood wizard. 3.)Dumbledore, on the other hand, *is* working, and now fighting, for a more tolerant society. Remus will benefit directly from this. 4.) The person who found the cure is probably in the Australian equivilant of St. Mungos (nb - *one* hospital for the whole of Britain?!) living out the effects of Gilderoy Lockhart's Memory Charm (this is speculation). Dumbledore presumably knows the extent of Gilderoy's crimes. If the person who really did defeat the Wagga Wagga Werewolf had worked out a cure, why would Dumbledore keep this information from one of his trusted Order members, who was particularly affected by it? Especially if there was a possibility that said trusted member might be lured away by false hope? 5.) Very few wizards "are up" to making the potion that turns werewolves into harmless wolves at the full moon.(PoA) Snape is one of these wizards. Snape works for *Dumbledore*. All this taken into account, what on earth is Remus to gain from switching sides? Also, why on earth would a man who struggles to make friends, who spends much of his time isolated from society, and who has such an obvious desire to be *liked*, kill off his oldest and only real friend? Because of some residual bitterness about Snape finding out about the Prank? It doesn't make sense. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' she yelled, her voice echoing around the cavernous list. Kirstini, who wonders if it might be a worthwhile venture setting up a chapter of Apologists for Remus, and if so, what colour the robes would be. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 13 10:56:53 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:56:53 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > > And as for the quote above, there is a lot more evidence in OoP that > Snape was weakening Harry's defenses against Voldemort during the > occlumency lessons, This was Ron and later Harry's assumption. However, Snape's actions seem to contradict this. His first reaction, when he saw that Harry dreamed from the corridor, was, that he was worried. Harry recognized it, and he was happy because Snape treated him unfairly only moments before. But why should Snape be worried about the dream, if he secretly works for Voldemort? He hasn't even a reason to act, as if he is worried, because Harry didn't know at this point, how important his dreams are. Snape also told Dumbledore at once about Harry's dreams. Why should he do this, if he were on Voldemort's side? I also want to mention, that Harry didn't do, what Snape told him to do. Harry didn't practise, therefore, it is no wonder, that he wasn't able to learn Occlumency. That said, I want do add, that I don't think Lupin is the traitor either, or Molly Weasley, for that matter. After all, Harry's dead body was a part of her boggart. Maybe JK is nice, and the traitor (if there is any!) will be someone, we don't know to much about, yet. Hickengruendler From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon Oct 13 11:02:04 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 07:02:04 -0400 Subject: Symbolism & Metaphors; Ron at the DoM; some Snape (WAS: Hermione's growth, symbols References: Message-ID: <006601c39179$6f7959c0$9ddc5644@aoldsl.net> No: HPFGUIDX 82816 David wrote: As I understand it, Debbie's was making a symbolic point, not describing Hermione's magical abilities. Hermione is a great book-lover, and here she is shown being hurt instead of helped by books. In real life, of course, that would be meaningless, but this is fiction. Debbie: That's right, Hermione is being harmed by books here. However, her magical ability is also on display. Because she successfully fires off a silencing spell on Dolohov, he cannot enunciate his spell and it has less of an effect on her than it might otherwise have had. As a result, depending on what the full force of the spell would have accomplished, Hermione essentially saves herself. Nevertheless, the books crashing down coincides with the end of her participation in the battle. Hermione's talents helped get Harry this far, but she can't see him through to the end. David again: I'm interested in Debbie's statement "where everything seems to be a metaphor" above: certainly in the Chamber and the Shrieking Shack there seems to be plenty of symbolism going on. Debbie responds: Absolutely. The Chamber may be symbolic on several levels. I once posted on its death-and-resurrection symbolism (#38624), and at Nimbus one of the presenters suggested that it was a metaphor for puberty, which I could not begin to explain. Undoubtedly there's more to be found there. I have started to scour the DoM episode more closely for its symbolism and metaphor. The only character I've gotten through to date is Ron, but I think his entire experience, from the moment the plan is put in motion to get Harry to Umbridge's fireplace - can be viewed as a metaphor for what has happened to him throughout the series. At first, nothing surprising happens to Ron at the Department of Mysteries - he's right there with Harry - until they leave the prophecy room and Ron makes a wrong turn, along with Ginny and Luna. Ron can also be said to have taken a wrong turn in CoS, starting when he convinced Harry that they should fly the Anglia to Hogwarts. He tried to emulate the Twins - who had succeeded in a similar endeavor - and failed. His wand snapped and he became lost in a cycle of self-doubt and inertia from which he's only beginning to emerge. Compare what happened to Ron in CoS to PS/SS, where Ron didn't seem nearly as unsure of himself. The hints of his crisis of confidence there are far overshadowed by his other actions, especially his skilled and confident chess sacrifice. Likewise, he doesn't start out badly on the way to the DoM. His attempt to head Umbridge off doesn't work, but he doesn't know that Umbridge has just seen Peeves. Though it happens off-page and Ron didn't reveal his own part in it, he, Ginny, Luna and Neville use a variety of hexes to escape from their guards and meet Harry and Hermione in the forest. At the Department of Mysteries, after Ron makes the wrong turn he is hit by an unseen spell that has several effects. It causes him to giggle uncontrollably and make embarrassing jokes. And the spell, whatever it was, also caused internal damage. "Ron's face was very white and something dark was trickling from the corner of his mouth. Next moment his knees had given way . . . ." Sounds a lot like the surface Ron we saw in GoF - making silly jokes (like the Uranus joke JKR has him repeat to make sure we make the connection), suffering from unseen internal woes, allowing himself to be used for spell practice, and needing support from others. It's at this point that Ron is literally attacked by a metaphor. Ron summons, and then grabs a brain, only to be attacked by it, or more accurately, by the "tentacles of thought" which "began wrapping themselves around Ron's arms like ropes." The image of all those tentacles of thought floating toward Ron, wrapping themselves around and trying to suffocate him paints a pretty accurate picture of what's been going on in his head over the past 2-3 books and particularly OOP where his lack of faith in himself nearly loses Gryffindor a Quidditch cup that was within its grasp. However, the brain does *not* suffocate Ron as Ginny suggests it will. Instead, Ron himself finally realizes he's gone astray ("No - no - I don't like it - no, stop - stop -.") by inviting the thoughts to torment him. And he responds by fighting against it. ("Ron fell over, thrashing against his bonds.") Significantly, Harry's attempt to release the tentacles fails, and Ron is left to fight the brain alone since Harry and Neville leave him to continue the fight with the DEs.; the others who stay behind are unconscious. Thus, we don't actually see Ron fight off the brain (we know he did, through Neville's report), just as (like Hermione and Harry) we don't see him overcome his fears at Quidditch. Which is metaphorically exactly right, because Ron's struggle is internal and he must resolve it himself. Harry can't stop the thoughts from attacking Ron any more than he can turn Ron into a good Keeper by catching the snitch. What finally happened at the Quidditch final was that, when left to his own devices, Ron finally trusted his instincts ("I wasn't feeling all that confident, but . . . I thought - you can do this! And . . . I had a funny feeling that he was feinting, and so I took the chance and flew left"). I'd like to think that's why he didn't suffocate in the brain room in the end, either. Finally, we get to the hospital room, where Ron is recovering from his metaphorical injuries with the aid of another metaphor, Dr Ubbly's Oblivious Unction. Paralyzing thoughts can be fought off, but no one can do it for you and even if you do manage to fight them off, there will be deep scars, as Madam Pomfrey says, representing the lingering memories of the thoughts. Like memories, scars fade over time, but never quite disappear. Dr Ubbly's salve only "seemed" to result in an improvement, though, because the real injury is internal. As a result, we won't know how well Ron has recovered until Book Six. The scar metaphor seems directly applicable to another character who doesn't appear in the DoM scene: Severus Snape. Look at what Dumbledore says of Snape (ch 37 OOP): "'I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply. 'But I forgot -- another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.' Whether or not it's really his worst memory, Snape is caught up in the thoughts of those events, just as the brain's tentacles cling to Ron as if to suffocate him. And he hasn't been to see Madam Pomfrey lately, because the scars left by Snape's memories of James are still controlling him. Debbie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ProfSnapeFan at aol.com Sun Oct 12 23:43:37 2003 From: ProfSnapeFan at aol.com (ProfSnapeFan at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:43:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape: evil or good Message-ID: <1d2.1268ba5a.2cbb4129@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82817 In a message dated 10/12/2003 3:35:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, maryjo at neyersoftware.com writes: > Unfortunately, from all the statements that J.K.R. has made about Snape in > interviews, he does sound like he will turn out to be completely evil, which > is a great disappointment to me. I would like to seem some healing take > place and for him to be a hero, broken and battered, but indeed a hero. This is > my fondest wish, but I must admit it doesn't look like this will happen. So > I feel a little better when I read others' e-mails expressing the same or > similar feelings about Prof. Snape. > Mary Jo I'll admit to not having read everything that JKR has said about Snape. But I always got the impression that she was mainly emphasizing that he was not nice, and was never going to be? But I don't translate that as him turning evil. I recall an interview where she said to "Keep our eye on him" or something to that effect, but I remember not getting the impression necessarily that he was going to turn out evil. Staying childish, petulant, and all the other stuff, maybe. But not sure I want to go as far as him betraying the order. Course I may just be to sucked in to see reality, lol. Joy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 13 00:10:53 2003 From: strawberryshaunie at yahoo.ca (strawberryshaunie) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:10:53 -0000 Subject: heir of Slytherin vs heir of gryffindor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82818 This is my second time posting:) and i'm still very new, so you must forgive me if this makes little sense: (I'm a bit of a lurker, as I rarely have time to post anything these days). this may have already been pointed out, but Isn't it kind of obvious that Harry's probably the heir of gryffindor? Apart from everything Dumbledore's said about Harry's house (CoS, I believe it was...something along the lines of "it takes a true Gryffindor to pull [godric's sword] out of the hat"...there's also the fact that James and Lily live in Godric's Hollow (I'm assuming GG would have been the Potter's ancestor, as the Evanses were most likely muggles). One thing that really stuck out, however, was the fact that Harry's eyes, and their colour, seem to be very important ("you have your mother's eyes" must have been stated a dozen times). Dumbledore, while explaining his suspicions that Harry's mind was being linked to LV's, mentioned that something in Harrys *eyes* told him that LV's presence may not be as remote as they'd like to believe. (HArry's green eyes seem to be the opposite of LV's red...whether this is more evidence of Harry being the opposite of the heir of slytherin is yet to be revealed?) From Yahtzee63 at aol.com Mon Oct 13 00:21:30 2003 From: Yahtzee63 at aol.com (Yahtzee63 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:21:30 EDT Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) Message-ID: <10c.2a9ac331.2cbb4a0a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82819 If there is to be a great betrayal, it will not be Lupin, for one simple reason: It's the wrong generation. The Marauders already HAD a great traitor. That was Peter Pettigrew, and it was his acts that cast doubt on the strength/endurance/truth of the tight friendship between those four guys. If Lupin were to turn traitor as well -- what precisely would it teach Harry? What would it really have to do with Harry? As others have pointed out, though Lupin has always been friendly to Harry, he has never been a true father figure to him; he's someone Harry knows and trusts, but it's too remote for a second betrayal. If Lupin were to turn out to be evil, it would be because of events in the past that had zero to do with Harry or what's been going on the past few years. It would be essentially meaningless, something that had shock-value only. There is no way it would affect Harry on an emotional level the way Peter's betrayal must have affected James, Lily and Sirius. (I speak only of the emotions involved -- for so long as James and Lily were alive to know their betrayal.) If there is to be a great betrayal awaiting in the final two books, it will be committed by someone who is of Harry's generation, somebody he has known and whose life he has played a major part in influencing. I don't have a more specific candidate for whom it might be, but I feel quite sure that it will strike far closer to home for Harry than Remus Lupin. If it were Lupin who turned around, all Harry would learn is, "Man, my dad sucked at choosing friends." If Harry is to be profoundly shocked and changed by the experience, the betrayal would have to be somebody a lot closer. Yahtzee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sun Oct 12 03:31:22 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:31:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) References: <5.0.2.1.2.20031013072421.00a30a90@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <003101c39071$5058b1c0$f194aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82820 > Tanya > > I truly wish I could prove you wrong. But while feeling rather ill also. > Another scene came to mind. Remember after Harry is thrown out > of Snapes office after the pensive (sp) issue. > > He then goes to talk to Lupin and Sirus. The gist of it is that Sirus > really wants to run and have words to Snape, but Lupin strongly insists > he is the one to do it, then we have no canon saying he actually did. > Ok... I had a little fun playing the Devil's Advocate... so to speak. I'd like to point out something, however. (I have just finished reading this scene... as I am currently re-reading OotP for the heck of it...) When Harry is talking to Sirius and Lupin, he tells them that Snape has discontinued their Occlumency lessons. Sirius wanted to confront Snape about it and Lupin stops him, telling Sirius that he had better do it instead. Remus then turns to Harry and tells him that he must do everything he can to get Snapes to resume their lessons. According to Lupin, Harry learning Occlumency is the most important thing in the world for him to do now, bar none. Had he been truly interested in allowing Voldemort access to Harry's mind, he wouldn't have been so insistent that Harry keep up learning how to block Voldemort out. Going in another direction, let's look at Dumbledore. He had that look of triumph and all at the end of GoF. One of the wizards running one of Harry's OWLs tests commented that Dumbledore did things with a wand that he'd never seen before. Who's to say that Dumbledore didn't "trick shoot" Sirius from under his arm while looking out of the corner of his eye before turning towards the dais? Then there's Ron, as mentioned before. He has been well established that, while he is Harry's best friend, he's still envious of Harry's money and skill at Quidditch. A lot of groundwork has been lain for his possible betrayal of Harry... Especially if he has feelings for Hermione later and she seems to have an interest in Harry... imagined or real. Lessee... Snape was a former Death Eater, but he could just as easily still work for Voldemort. He can relay false information to Dumbledore and the Order after having given them a lot of accurate information to lead them in to a plan by Voldemort. His Occlumency lessons with Harry only really seemed to have served to open up the doors to Harry's mind even wider. Also, keep in mind that he's a master at Occlumency, so even if Dumbledore used Legimacy (sp?) on him, he'd still be able to hide his true feelings and motives. Being a master at Potions as well, he'd probably know of something to take that would prevent Veritaserum from working on him. Last, but not least... (and as someone else brought up...) Where did we get the idea of a traitor in the Order? Just my herd of centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 06:20:08 2003 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:20:08 -0000 Subject: Speaking of wands... In-Reply-To: <000801c39002$182de0a0$dae279a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82821 Iggy: > The only person I could think of that MIGHT have been on the scene with > Voldemort would have been Peter... but if he saw Voldemort bite the big one, > why would he bother to save the wand either? He wouldn't have thought that > his boss was coming back at all. psychobirdgirl(me): IF it was Peter, I would think that he kept it thinking he might be more powerful if he used it. psychobirdgirl From Berkana_01 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 09:37:07 2003 From: Berkana_01 at hotmail.com (Joanna Barra) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:37:07 +0000 Subject: Re Lily, Petunia, squibs and muggles etc Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82822 Iggy McSnurd: Ummm... I cited canon about where Petunia found out. What other "awful boy" >could she have been referring to who might have told Lilly about the >Dementors? Also, it doesn't matter if they were guarding Azkaban or not. James would have been even MORE likely to talk about them to Lilly if they were actually involved in the war itself. I don't think that JKR would be lying to her readers about how Petunia found out about the Dementors. For one thing, she doesn't really have any reason to. ...................................................................... Hi all Berkana here, I have been wondering for a while now, who Petunia was referring to when she spoke of the 'Awful boy'. I always asumed that she was talking about James. I still believe she was referring to James as he would have been the one who told Lily about the Dementors, probably whilst they were still at school.James and Lily were dating in yr 7 I presume, so therefore in the summer Holidays James might have visited the Evans home and might of told Petunia about the Dementors to scare her.......Or another senario is Petunia is actually a squib, who is jealous of her sister and one day whilst Lily and James were at the house.Remember Mr and Mrs Evans were happy that Lily was a witch, so they no doubt had no problem with James. Dementors come looking for Lily to kill her , probably having been sent by LV to destroy her, so she doesn't even get pregnant and therefore that would save him many years of stress having to try and Kill Harry. Petunia see's these really nasty cloaked things floating towards the house and probably asks what they are and then Probably James informs her.....Or Dementors might have come to the Evans house looking for James and Lily and scare the living day lights out of Petunia, that is how she knew what they were in OotP (Chapter 1) As for JKR lying to her readers. She is a woman full of surprises, I mean, who could have believed what happened at the end of the book? I didn't believe it, I was really shocked.Actually a lot of the book surprised me, it was nothing I expected.....We can only hope she tells in book 6. Ml Berkana x _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From Berkana_01 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 10:03:30 2003 From: Berkana_01 at hotmail.com (Joanna Barra) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:03:30 +0000 Subject: Who will betray the order? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82823 hickengruendler at y...> wrote: My personal opinion is, that, if there is a spy in the Order, it won't be Snape. Mainly because he is still a highly suspicious. Pippin: Well said! We are looking for someone who is supposed to be nicE .I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know which one I'd pick. .................. Hi well Pippin, I for one have no idea who you would pick.....Who would you pick? In the live interview JKR had with Steven Fry, did she not say something about to keep an eye on Snape (Or something like that)because fans have started to like him a lot?. I don't think he will be the one to betray Harry, because that would be so obvious and to be honest very unoriginal on JKR parts.I mean take Toilken the way he describes Wormtongue, it did not surprise me when he betrayed King Theoden and went to Sauruman. If JkR does that as well, I will be disapointed....But if someone close to Harry betrays him, then that would shatter him and probably kill him. I believe out of anyone it might be either Lupin (The man is a werewolf, where has been for all those years after he graduated, he wasn't in any employment.)Mr Weasley (Perhaps loving muggles is all an act?)Or Dumbledore, he seems to let Harry do a lot of fighting and really does nothing to help him, except break the poor boys spirits by sending him home to the Dursleys. Maybe he is trying to wear Harry down no nothing, so when it is time for LV to kill him, it will be fast and Harry will not put up much of a fight. Another thing is the Order might not be betrayed on Purpose. One of the members might accidently speak about things in too much detail whilst having too much whiskey in the pub........HAGRID!?!?. ML Berkana x _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile From Berkana_01 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 10:28:17 2003 From: Berkana_01 at hotmail.com (Joanna Barra) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:28:17 +0000 Subject: Speaking of Wands Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82824 Iggy McSnurd: Please forgive if this has already been covered, but a thought just occurred >to me: Everybody has been talking about how Sirius got his wand back in >PoA... I think a more important question would be how did Voldemort get HIS >wand back for GoF? (Otherwise, the events of the duel wouldn't have >happened as they did...) The only person I could think of that MIGHT have been on the scene with >Voldemort would have been Peter... but if he saw Voldemort bite the big >one, >why would he bother to save the wand either? He wouldn't have thought that >his boss was coming back at all. > .................................................. I believe that Peter took the wand as a souvenir. He probably thought be could use it.Or it might have predicted that LV would be parcially destroyed that night (I am sure the prophecy we all know about in OotP is incomplete), So there fore LV told Peter to look after his wand until he returns..... ML BERKANA X _________________________________________________________________ On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 12:26:58 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:26:58 -0000 Subject: Killer!Lupin (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82825 > KathyK: > > It's possible he could be acting alone. In that case, though, why > kill Sirius if not to further Voldemort's cause by hurting Harry? > Could it be that Lupin's just grown so bitter and angry over the > years toward Sirius who helped ruin his life by tricking Snape into the passage under the Whomping Willow? Laura: In what sense did the prank ruin Remus's life? The Marauders walked away from the incident without repercussion, so we're told. There's no evidence that Remus didn't finish school with the rest of his class-I can't believe this little piece of information wouldn't have come up sometime if it had been the case. And if Remus had been thrown out of school, would he (1) still have his wand and (2) have been invited to come back as a teacher? DD is forgiving but I'm not sure even he could have gotten away with hiring a potential killer- and as soon as Remus was outed, he was gone. > Tanya in post 82774: Another scene came to mind. Remember after Harry is thrown out > of Snapes office after the pensive (sp) issue. > > He then goes to talk to Lupin and Sirus. The gist of it is that Sirus really wants to run and have words to Snape, but Lupin strongly insists he is the one to do it, then we have no canon saying he actually did. > > KathyK: > > And it makes Lupin look like the good, caring friend we all think he is, doesn't it? He's concerned for Sirius' safety and possibly for Snape as well. He makes it look like he's got everyone's best > interest at heart while ensuring the Occlumency lessons wouldn't > continue. Snape gets the blame for stopping the lessons. No one > questions Lupin about it. > > I just had an "Oooh, Oooh" moment. The only ones who knew about > Lupin's plan to talk to Snape were Harry and Sirius. What if Lupin told Sirius he *had* talked to Snape *and* he'd restarted the > Occlumency lessons? In the aftermath of the battle, if Sirius had > lived, it would have come out that Lupin was supposed to talk to > Snape. > > Sirius believed Lupin had and thought the lessons continued. He > would have found out differently after the battle and would have > brought to light Lupin's lie, thus blowing Lupin's cover. So Lupin, though it pained him to do so, had to make sure Sirius did not survive the battle. Laura: We have no proof either way whether the conversation between Snape and Remus took place. And whether it did or didn't, the result would have been pretty much the same, imo. Snape would not have continued the lessons short of a direct order from DD. Given the relations between Snape and Remus (despite Remus's best efforts to treat Snape politely), you can imagine how that conversation would have gone. I'm sure it would have ended with Snape telling Remus to [fill in your choice of obscene phrase] and throwing Remus out of his office. Besides, Remus could easily have told Sirius that he tried talking to Snape and Snape refused to continue the lessons. Sirius would believe that in a second (who wouldn't?) and would hardly be inclined to ask Snape for confirmation that the discussion took place. If Remus really wanted to get rid of Sirius, maybe he *would* have let him confront Snape. After their little disagreement in Grimmauld Place, Snape might have lost control completely and AK'd Sirius right then and there. Laura, who is absolutely not buying the ESE!Lupin theories. From lmbolland at earthlink.net Mon Oct 13 12:39:11 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:39:11 -0000 Subject: Peter and Gollum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82826 June wrote: > > I'd watch Peter very closely. He's a guy who really knows how to > hold a grudge. Was his betrayal of the Potters motivated by > grudge? There's just the tiniest indication that this may be so in > the now notorious pensieve scene in OoP. Lauri B. wrote: June, could you elaborate on this? I didn't notice any grudge indications in the pensieve scene, but I've got an open mind!! :) I think you're spot on re: Peter. The fidelius charm -faith in Latin- is one which has deeper implications, particularly when broken - it is, literally Broken Faith. Same w/life debt to Harry - there is deeper magic which, we know from DD, Dark Wizards may choose to ignore or distain, but which is very powerful. I suspect Vol 6 will involve Bellatrix, Harry, & Neville, leaving Vol 7 for the final battle involving Voldy & Harry. I suspect it will also involve some old grudges - Pettigrew & Lupin, Harry & Snape, Tom Riddle & Dumbledore, Harry & Draco. Just some thoughts. :) Lauri B. From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Mon Oct 13 12:49:57 2003 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:49:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82827 Originals: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72009 (summary) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72010 (questions) ~~~ Chapter 2 picks up with some revelations from Mrs. Figg as she, Harry, and Dudley make their way back to 4 Privet Drive. Harry is utterly non-plussed to learn that she's part of the Wizarding World, a Squib, that Mundungus Fletcher has been following him, and that Mrs. Figg knows Dumbledore. Arabella takes no notice of Harry's shock, as she's consumed with pique at Mundungus for ducking out on his post, and worried about what Dumbledore will have to say about it. (Q1) Mrs. Figg also mentions that Dumbledore will need to be informed immediately, and dismisses Harry's offer of sending Hedwig to contact him saying, "Harry, you don't understand! Dumbledore will need to act as quickly as possible, the Ministry have their own ways of detecting underage magic, they'll know already, you mark my words --" (Q2) Mrs. Figg rages to the night about Mundungus, and as she does so, he Apparates in front of them. Arabella tells him of the Dementors, gives him what for and sends him off to inform Dumbledore. They reach the Dursleys' home, and Mrs. Figg hurries off to await instruction from Dumbledore before Harry can ask her any further questions. Petunia opens the door and goes into hysterics at Dudley's condition; she and Vernon pepper him with questions, but he cannot speak. As Harry tries to slip away upstairs, Dudley manages to respond to Vernon's question of "Who did it, son?" by answering "Him", indicating Harry. They all head into the kitchen. Before Harry can begin to explain what happened, a screech owl swoops in with a message: a notice from the Ministry's Improper Use of Magic Office informing Harry that due to his use of magic that evening he has been expelled from Hogwarts, a Ministry representative will be arriving shortly to destroy his wand, and Harry will also be subjected to a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry. Harry starts to think about making a run for it, but moments later another owl arrives, this time from Arthur Weasley, telling him that Dumbledore's just arrived at the Ministry and is working to sort it out, and that Harry must remain at Privet Drive, he must not surrender his wand, and he must not do any more magic. Harry wonders what Dumbledore will be able to do about the situation, but he decides to stay there at the Dursleys'. As they resume discussing what happened that evening, Dudley finally begins to speak, once again accusing Harry. He describes how Harry pointed his wand at him, everything went dark, and he began hearing "things" inside his head. (Q3) Harry begins to explain that it wasn't he, Harry, who caused this, but Dementors. Petunia shocks everyone by supplying the information that Dementors guard the wizard prison Azkaban. She says that she overheard James telling Lily about them years ago. (Q4) Before the discussion can continue, another owl arrives from the Ministry. Harry may keep his wand, and the decision of whether he will be expelled from Hogwarts will be made at his Ministry hearing 12th August. For now he's just suspended. Harry continues describing the encounter with the Dementors, and when he explains about the Dementor's Kiss, Petunia utters a "soft scream". As Harry starts to tell of using a Patronus to repel the Dementors another owl arrives, this one from Sirius, reiterating to Harry that he must not leave the house. (Q5) Harry is growing more and more frustrated and angry that no one is telling him anything, and feels that in their exhortations to remain in the house, both Sirius and Mr. Weasley were treating him as though he'd misbehaved. (After all the times he's been told how brave he's been, how he's performed as well or better than adult wizards, he's now being admonished as a naughty child, when he should be praised again for his success in fighting off the Dementors. "I'm not a child anymore; why are they treating me like one?!" Seems Harry's probably feeling this way.) Harry tells the Dursleys that Lord Voldemort is back, and must have been the one to send the Dementors to Privet Drive; Petunia and Vernon's reactions are interesting: while they flinch at any mention of 'magic', the name "Voldemort" causes not "the slightest tremor". The name starts to ring a bell for Vernon, but he doesn't appreciate fully what it means for Voldemort to be back; Petunia does, though. She drops the pretense she's always maintained that there is no Wizarding World and shows genuine fear at this news. Harry is struck by the significance of the realization that Petunia is his mother's sister; there's an understanding of the implications of Voldemort's return between Harry and Petunia now. Vernon reaches a not very suprising conclusion: Harry's presence in their home is now a threat to his family, so he demands that Harry leave. (Q6) Before Vernon can force Harry to go, the last owl of the night arrives carrying a Howler. As Harry reaches for the envelope, the owl soars past him and drops the Howler on Petunia's head. She's surprised that it's addressed to her, and apparently doesn't know what a Howler is. As the Howler bursts into flames an "awful" voice fills the kitchen. "REMEMBER MY LAST, PETUNIA!" Finally Petunia says that "the boy will have to stay". Vernon sputters "W-what?", but Petunia says with finality, "He stays." She rapidly resumes her typical "brisk, snappish manner", and gives the excuse that the neighbors will ask awkward questions if they throw Harry out. (Q7) Petunia ignores Vernon's protests and tells Harry he is to stay in his room, he is not to leave the house. Harry asks her many of our questions -- "Who was that Howler from? Are you in touch with wizards? What did it mean? Remember the last what?" but all Petunia will say is "Don't ask questions." Vernon is no longer protesting that Harry should leave; he now backs his wife by hollering at Harry "YOU HEARD YOUR AUNT, NOW GET TO BED!" (Q8) Discussion Questions and Topics: Side Note: Mrs. Figg mentions that luckily she'd thought to have one of her "cats", Mr. Tibbles keep watch outside Harry's home, and that Mr. Tibbles "came and warned her" that Mundungus had left his post. We know from Book One that in the past Harry had spent quite a bit of time at Mrs. Figg's, forced to look at pictures of her "cats", Mr. Tibbles (though he's just Tibbles in SS), Snowy, Mr. Paws and Tufty. "Fantastic Beasts" tells us that Kneazles are "sufficiently unusual in appearance to attract Muggle interest" but they "can interbreed with cats". One of my pet speculations has been that Arabella is a Kneazle-breeder -- breeding them with ordinary cats (though it's just as likely that she's just a 'cat person'). So far it seems we've yet to see a pure Kneazle in canon; JKR confirmed in an online chat that Crookshanks is part-Kneazle. Q1: As Arabella's "cats" do not seem to attract interest by having an unusual appearance, are they only part-Kneazle as well? Will Harry now be able to identify Mrs. Figg's cats if he needs to? Any ideas how the Kneazle's ability to "guide its owner safely home if they are lost" will come into play in canon? Mrs. Figg and Filch are the only Squibs we've met (that we know of); does Mrs. Norris fall into the part-Kneazle category, too? Or is she a transfigured person unable to change back? (Was that why Filch was taking the Kwik Spell course?) Q2: What ways does the Ministry have of detecting underage magic? House Elves or portraits? This doesn't seem likely, so what could it be? Q3: What *does* "spoiled, pampered Dudley" hear when attacked by Dementors? Q4: Petunia says that she overheard "that awful boy" telling Lily about Dementors years ago -- James? Snape? Someone else? What might the circumstances have been that Petunia was able to overhear this; were they at Lily and Petunia's home where they lived with their parents? Why was this person telling Lily about Dementors and Azkaban? Harry assumes Petunia just happens to remember this scrap of info from years ago, but how likely is it that Petunia only knows "scraps" of information about the Wizarding World? Q5: When Harry explains about the Dementor's Kiss, Petunia utters a "soft scream". Does she know someone who received the Dementor's Kiss? Is this what happened to her and Lily's parents? If so, did Petunia only know that they were killed due to Lily's connection to the Wizarding World, but never knew how (or why)? Could the victims of the Dementor's Kiss have been someone other than their parents? Who? Q6: Vernon says "Why we ever kept you in the first place I don't know..." Is this just a figure of speech, or does he *really not know*? Did Petunia just insist that Harry stay without telling Vernon the real reasons why? Q7: When Vernon rails against the magical world, Petunia never demurs; but while he rants and raves, she stays in the background. The concern has always been that they want to live a normal life, that they maintain a proper and respectable appearance among the neighbors, among family, in Vernon's career; this is probably true for Vernon, and maybe to some degree for Petunia as well. But does Petunia have another reason for keeping their connection to the Wizarding World a secret? Is her behavior all this time is just a facade? Is she just playing a role? Q8: Petunia's often described as 'nosy', keen to know what the neighbors are up to. We learn this from Harry's perspective; is this actually JKR derailing us? Is Petunia really not watching the neighbors, but keeping watch for something or someone else? Dudley has his father's temper; when Vernon blows his top, Petunia doesn't seem overly concerned. However, when Dudley had his childish tantrums, Petunia scrambled to placate and soothe him. Is she worried he might exhibit some magical tendencies? If this is so, who might she most want to hide that from -- Vernon? The neighbors? The magical world? Could she be fearful that she may lose her son the way she lost her sister (and possibly her parents)? *Is* Petunia the person who will exhibit/discover magical ability later in life? Or is it Dudley or someone else? --Kelley From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Oct 13 13:30:00 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:30:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley" wrote: > > Any ideas > how the Kneazle's ability to "guide its owner safely home if they are > lost" will come into play in canon? I think it is likely that it has do something with Hermione and Crookshanks. Crookshanks is more fleshed out than Mrs. Figg's cats, so I think he will be more important. >Mrs. Figg and Filch are the only > Squibs we've met (that we know of); does Mrs. Norris fall into the > part-Kneazle category, too? Probably. > > Q2: What ways does the Ministry have of detecting underage magic? > House Elves or portraits? This doesn't seem likely, so what could it > be? I have not the slightest idea. I wondered about this, too. > Q3: What *does* "spoiled, pampered Dudley" hear when attacked by > Dementors? Maybe the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident? I think this was a really awful incident and surely not a pleasant memory for Dudley. > > Q4: Petunia says that she overheard "that awful boy" telling Lily > about Dementors years ago -- James? Snape? Someone else? What might > the circumstances have been that Petunia was able to overhear this; > were they at Lily and Petunia's home where they lived with their > parents? Why was this person telling Lily about Dementors and > Azkaban? Harry assumes Petunia just happens to remember this scrap of > info from years ago, but how likely is it that Petunia only > knows "scraps" of information about the Wizarding World? I am not sure at all, if Petunia told the truth. It seemed a lot like if she tried to apologize and searched desperatly for a believable explanation. > > Q5: When Harry explains about the Dementor's Kiss, Petunia utters > a "soft scream". Does she know someone who received the Dementor's > Kiss? Is this what happened to her and Lily's parents? If so, did > Petunia only know that they were killed due to Lily's connection to > the Wizarding World, but never knew how (or why)? Could the victims > of the Dementor's Kiss have been someone other than their parents? > Who? Petunia seemed to know what the Dementors are, but not, what they do. Therefore I can't imagine that her parents were kissed, otherwise she would have known, that Dudley still has his soul. That said, I also think that Petunias parents might have been killed by Death Eaters and that that is one of the reason, why Petunia resents magic. > > Q6: Vernon says "Why we ever kept you in the first place I don't > know..." Is this just a figure of speech, or does he *really not > know*? Did Petunia just insist that Harry stay without telling > Vernon the real reasons why? I think he really doesn't know the reason. When the howler came, Petunia knew exactly who was speaking and what was the reason. But Vernon didn't. Petunia also told him, that Harry has to stay because the neighbours will talk. > > Q7: When Vernon rails against the magical world, Petunia never > demurs; but while he rants and raves, she stays in the background. > The concern has always been that they want to live a normal life, > that they maintain a proper and respectable appearance among the > neighbors, among family, in Vernon's career; this is probably true > for Vernon, and maybe to some degree for Petunia as well. But does > Petunia have another reason for keeping their connection to the > Wizarding World a secret? Is her behavior all this time is just a > facade? Is she just playing a role? I don't think so. I think she really doesn't want to have something to do with the wizarding world. > > Q8: Petunia's often described as 'nosy', keen to know what the > neighbors are up to. We learn this from Harry's perspective; is this > actually JKR derailing us? Is Petunia really not watching the > neighbors, but keeping watch for something or someone else? I would say it is possible, like I already said in the Lily/ Petunia topic. She knows that the boy she took in is in great danger, and therefore she and her family are in danger, too. This could really be a reason that she is sort of paranoid and wanted to be really careful, especially if her parents really were killed by wizards. > > *Is* Petunia the person who will exhibit/discover magical ability > later in life? Or is it Dudley or someone else? I still think it's Argus Filch. Hickengruendler From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 13:40:39 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:40:39 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter / Evans family / Sirius / Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82829 Rita (Catlady) wrote: > Your theory works just as well with Mark being Jasper's son and > biologically an Evans: Jasper was killed before Harry was put on > Petunia's doorstep (Jasper might even have been killed the same night > as James and Lily) and Mark wasn't born yet at that time, so > Dumbledore's statement that only Petunia (and Dudley, who was in the > same place as Petunia) shared Harry's mother's blood was true. But > Mark could be born anytime from the next day to nine months after > Jasper's death and still be Jasper's biological son. (Even without > any of that non-fairy-tale artificial insemination stuff.) back to Ginger: We still have the problem with Mark being 10 years old. If Jasper had been killed that night, and Mark born 9 months later, Mark would have born near Harry's second birthday, making him 13, as Harry has just turned 15. So that's why I went the route of him just sharing the name, although if there's a "special" bank involved.....nah. Too much math for a Monday! Ginger, who doesn't do math on weekdays. From dwoodward at towson.edu Mon Oct 13 15:45:01 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Woodward, Deirdre) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:45:01 -0400 Subject: Wands and Wotcher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82830 I was just reading PS/SS (Brit edition, paperback) last night and noticed that Hermione grabs Harry's wand to perform the Alohomora spell that unlocks the door that leads them to Fluffy -- pg 116 or 118 of the paperback edition. Apparently wands are multiuser objects. I would imagine that the better the fit, the better the spell, however. And what does Wotcher mean? Tonks says that a couple of times -- "Wotcher, Harry!" Is it some kind of greeting? Thanks, Deirdre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmd at jvf.co.uk Mon Oct 13 15:49:19 2003 From: jmd at jvf.co.uk (Jeremy Davis) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:49:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands and Wotcher References: Message-ID: <010e01c391a1$904810b0$0e010001@jmd2000> No: HPFGUIDX 82831 > Deirdre Woodward said: > And what does Wotcher mean? Tonks says that a couple of times -- "Wotcher, Harry!" Is it some kind of greeting? Yes. British slang. Personally I think it's more used in the south. I used to use it whilst I was growing up in London, but I don't seem to hear it now I'm in the northern wastelands. Jerry From oppen at mycns.net Mon Oct 13 16:43:46 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:43:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna's Name (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) References: Message-ID: <005201c391a9$2d2054e0$fe510043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 82832 > Have you ever read The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge? It was > JKR's favorite book as a child. The main character in that book is a > Moon Princess. In the story, there is one Moon Princess per > generation who is chosen and given an opportunity to fulfill a > prophecy made in the time of Edward I - to rid the Dark Forest of the > evil people who live there and free her kingdom and it's people from > evil. Of course, THIS moon princess (Maria) succeeds, but since the > prophecy every single other Moon Princess has failed. (We meet a > former Moon Princess in the story named Loveday Minette, called so > because all Moon Princess "love the day".) Part of the prophecy is > that the Moon Princess must marry a man "beneath" her. > > To me, Luna Lovegood is very like the female character in The Little > White Horse in temperment and personality. Luna=Moon (of course, we > all know) and I believe Lovegood is a hint at Loveday. I think in > Potterverse _that_ Luna is JKR's own version of a "moon princess" and > after reading TLWH, I'm wondering about a future Harry/Luna ship. > If "Love" is the power in the Dept. of Mysteries, the power the Dark > Lord "knows not", who better than a Lovegood to have on your side? > And most would see Luna as "beneath" Harry. ??? So is Luna beneath Harry in your view, or is Harry beneath Luna, as per _The Little White Horse?_ (And, before you respond, get your collective minds OUT of the gutter!) And how does this "beneath her" bit work? Socially? Financially? Height-wise? Socially, I'd say that Harry's a good cut or two above Luna in the WW...he's a celebrity and (on his dad's side of the family) from an old pureblood-wizard family, while she's the daughter of the publisher of the WW equivalent of the _Weekly World News._ Financially, Harry's apparently quite wealthy. We don't know how well-off or otherwise Mr. Lovegood is. Heightwise---Harry's described, usually, as short and slight for his age. I don't remember anybody commenting on Luna's height one way or t'other. From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Oct 13 17:41:15 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:41:15 -0000 Subject: Peter and Gollum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goodnight_moon5" wrote: > There's just the tiniest indication that this may be so in > > the now notorious pensieve scene in OoP. > > > Lauri B. wrote: > > June, could you elaborate on this? I didn't notice any grudge > indications in the pensieve scene, but I've got an open mind!! :) > (Snippage...) >> Lauri B. OK - nothing overt I grant you. Just a couple of clues which spoke to me because as a person who was bullied at school, I kind of identify with some of the characters in this scene. I'm not going to elaborate on Snape's situation here - have already done it repeatedly and at boring length. He's a victim - and not the only one. Padfoot and Prongs behave odiously here. There's no other word for it. Arrogant, cocky little b*****ds. First of all lets supply the quotes: {extract from OOP CHAPTER 28] Peter: "I got the snout shape, the pupils of the eyes and the tufted tail," he said anxiously, "but I couldn't think what else -" "How thick are you Wormtail?" said James impatiently... ...He (James) put his hand in his pocket and took out a struggling Golden Snitch. (...) ...Wormtail watched him in awe... ...Wormtail was watching him with his mouth open. Every time James made a particularly difficult catch, Wormtail gasped and applauded. After five minutes of this, Harry wondered why Hames didn't tell Wormtail to get a grip on himself, but James seemed to be enjoying the attention... "Put that away, will you," said Sirius finally, as James made a fine catch, and Wormtail let out a cheer, "before Wormtail wets himself with excitement."... (Now Snape shows up..) ...Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid anticipation... ...Wormtail was on his feet now, watching hungrily, edging around Lupin to get a clearer view. (v. nasty remarks by Sirius about grease marks on Snape's exam paper)... Wormtail sniggered shrilly. [end extracts] That's it in the scene for Wormtail. The rest is Snape, Lily, James and Sirius. Forget that (for now!!). Now, people could argue that James and Sirius have an ongoing feud, grudge whatever against Snape and while their behaviour towards him isn't particularly nice, that it is motivated by a number of issues. Fine (believe that if you want) - so what's the problem with Wormtail? Would I be happy about friends who spoke to me in such a contemptuous and dismissive manner? No. This is the classic case (to me) of someone who is being tolerated in a group as a kind of greek chorus to the two lead actors, James and Sirius. Peter is allowed to hang with these two uber kids because he's the fan club. He can be counted upon to admire them, laughs at all their jokes, however puerile, oh, and if no one else is there to pick on, he's useful for that. Basically, Peter is operating outside of his peer group - and his so- called friends know that. He is tolerated rather than wanted. Even in the issue of animagi - he drew the short straw. The other's get to be the glamorous and macho animals - he gets to be a rat. And before anyone decides to flame me - let me say that I like rats, they're intelligent, loyal pets and have a horrible press. However, they are short on glamour and lack effective PR . In POA - Peter is referred to as that fat little boy who was always tagging along. Tolerated not wanted. However, this pecking order system which obtains in school only works so long as everyone is content to play the part allocated to them. I've hung round on the periphery of a school clique, being sycophantic - laughing at the jokes, even when I was the butt of them, but eventually people like me and Peter decide that we've had enough. Now, I didn't betray any of my so-called friends to an evil wizarding overlord (though I might have done if the right offers had come along), but Peter would have longed for acceptance. I'm betting it didn't come. Yeah, right, maybe James Potter became a prototype Nelson Mandela under the healing love of Lily Evans, yeah, right. But to be honest, judging by what I read of Sirius's character as an adult, I don't think anyone really looked to heal Peter's wounds. I suggest that Messrs Padfoot and Prongs never even thought there was anything to apologise for - certainly Sirius doesn't show that much self-doubt about his and James's treatment of Snape, does he? "I'm not proud of it" - but not exactly ashamed either. And he's pretty prompt at the self-justification bit when Harry pulls him up about it. So I doubt if Peter ever got the kind of acceptance he wanted. Always on the outside, always tolerated rather than accepted. Not the only reason he went across to the "dark side" but the seeds of maybe. I'm not entirely excusing Peter either - let me stress this. I may have been bullied at school, but I haven't joined any right wing extremist organisations, or become a mass murderer. But for what it's worth, I believe that such seeds as I've described here can have tragic consequences for the future. June "All that keeps me going now is the desire to see how it all comes out...oh, you know... the whole thing. The Universe." Lucifer Morningstar, the Kindly Ones, Neil Gaiman. From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 13 17:54:17 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:54:17 -0000 Subject: Luna's Name (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: <005201c391a9$2d2054e0$fe510043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: I probably should not be responding as I never read the LWH book, but I am sure that even if JKR's writing or characters were influenced by books she read and loved, she is not going to take plot lines from other books as such, she is creative enough to make do without it. > ??? So is Luna beneath Harry in your view, or is Harry beneath Luna, as per > _The Little White Horse?_ (And, before you respond, get your collective > minds OUT of the gutter!) I noticed that too - to match the LWH book, Harry needs to be "beneath" Luna, but (unless you mean in the pure blood sense) he is not. > Financially, Harry's apparently quite wealthy. We don't know how well-off > or otherwise Mr. Lovegood is. There are hints that the Lovegoods are not very well off. In GoF Amos Diggory mentions that the cheapest tickets require the longest arrival time ahead of the QWC and the Lovegoods have already been there two weeks. The Crumple Horn Snoracks (I may be spelling that one wrong :-)) are a complete obsession of Luna and her father, but they can't afford to go look for them until they sell Harry's interview to the Daily Prophet. > Heightwise---Harry's described, usually, as short and slight for his age. I > don't remember anybody commenting on Luna's height one way or t'other. In the beginning of OoP Harry is described as unhealthy looking due to "growing a lot in a short space of time". Then he muses that he's within an inch of his same-age father in the pensieve incident. James Potter the adult has always been described as "tall". I don't think that Harry is tall yet (certainly nowhere near Ron's height), but he is no longer short. Salit From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 18:06:06 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:06:06 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82835 erin wrote (re Lupin, Molly, Ron etc. betraying the Order): Don't worry, it won't be any of those. It's gonna be Bill Weasley. Erin hg: That's been my guess, too. Two things: Bill works with the Goblins, and he's dating Fleur. Not that I like the idea, but it makes more sense to me than anyone else. Let's just hope that no-one betrays the Order... hg. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Oct 13 11:31:28 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:31:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Wand References: Message-ID: <3F8A8D10.6090105@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82836 msbeadsley wrote: > The crux of the issue for me is that *going to* Ollivander's might > not be necessary more than once. You get "measured" for your first > wand by the process of being "selected" by the wand you get. Later, > (lots of snippage) Ollivander is not the only one who makes wands. He didn't make Krum's wand or Fleur's wand either. This means there are OTHER wand makers Sirius can get wands from, some in countries where he is not known to be a wanted man. And certainly if there is mentioned at one point a shop with 'used wands', then wands are not that hard to get. Jazmyn From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sun Oct 12 13:36:07 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 08:36:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speaking of wands... References: Message-ID: <002601c390c5$cc045960$5aee79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82837 From: "slgazit" *snip* > What is the significance of that? I think that when one has found > the perfectly matching wand, that wand will not be destroyed or lost > to them as long as they live (or exist in Voldemort's case :-)). The > wand will somehow find its way back to its owner through > circumstances that may seem accidental perhaps but pretty much pre- > ordained. Thus, when Crouch Jr. steals Harry's wand and creates the > Dark Mark, he gets stunned and drops the wand - just where Harry > happens to be! Accident? I think somehow the wand "made" him make > the Dark Mark right where Harry was, sensing that its real owner is > near (a bit like Sauron and his Ring in LOTR :-)). *snip* > All pure speculation of course, but it seems plausible to me... > > Salit > Iggy: Hmmmm... I can't really see that. For one thing, why would she have so many wands break in the books? They'd have to be indestructible or, at the least, repair themselves automatically. (After all, every wand is perfect for *someone*. And if it's the perfect match for someone out there, it would need to be available for that person later.) Also, I don't think Dumbledore would allow any of the dropped Phoenix feathers to be used in new wands. It would be disrespectful to Fawkes, and I don't think Dumbledore would want to offend so powerful a familiar. (That, and JKR apparently thought it important enough to stress that Fawkes gave two feathers, and only two.) Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sun Oct 12 16:14:29 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:14:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands and Wotcher References: <010e01c391a1$904810b0$0e010001@jmd2000> Message-ID: <007401c390db$eb5a3120$5aee79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82838 > > Deirdre Woodward said: > > And what does Wotcher mean? Tonks says that a couple of times -- > "Wotcher, Harry!" Is it some kind of greeting? > > Yes. British slang. Personally I think it's more used in the south. I used > to use it whilst I was growing up in London, but I don't seem to hear it now > I'm in the northern wastelands. > > Jerry Iggy here: I got this from the "Dictionary of Slang" site http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/w.htm wotcha! Exclam. A greeting. A shortening of what cheer! Also spelt wotcher. [Mainly London use] Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From jmmears at comcast.net Mon Oct 13 18:21:50 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:21:50 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82839 Mandy wrote: > > But the bigger, personal betrayal of Harry will come from Ron, who > IMO, is destined to replay the role of Leonties in the only other > story with a 'Hermione' in it. Shakespeare's The Winter's Tale. The set-up is perfect. The seeds of Ron's jealously of Harry have already been > laid throughout the 5 books, and I believe the Quiddich match in Book > 5 will be the straw that breaks the camels back. Ron is going to > begin to question why his two best friends could not be at his cup > winning game. Remember, his winning and holding the Quiddich House > Cup was in his fantasy in the Mirror of Irised, for Harry and > Hermione not to be there, even though they have a valid excuse, is > going to really hurt when he spends the summer dwelling on it. > Potent stuff. Love triangle jealousy can create a nasty mess. I > hate to think of what Ron can do to hurt Harry. We already know what Ron can do to hurt Harry; he can withdraw his friendship as he appeared to have done during The Rift in GoF. Up until OoP, that incident resulted in Harry's most miserable stretch of time at Hogwarts, and his reconciliation with Ron provided the most giddily happy Harry we've seen so far. Judging from the persistence of the Winter's Tale theory on this list, it's actual occurance in canon will be the biggest non- surprise JKR could come up with, IMO. Personally, I very much doubt that she's re-writing Shakespeare any more than I think that she's going to draw direct, one-to-one parallels between MWPP and Harry's generation. Of course, I also think that a trio romantic triangle is unlikely just because of my own personal dislike of this sort of soap opera, so I do have a built in bias there ;-). Still, I think that Rowling has shown us that Ron's already resolved his momentary disquiet at Harry and Hermione's absence at his Quidditch triumph and I don't think it would be in character for him to start brooding about it later. In fact, I think that the whole reason that Ron has his moment of glory off-stage as it were, is that he's got to come into his own out of the shadow of Harry or his family. For me, this was the key to Ron's character development in OoP. As for who I think the betrayer will be, I'm not so sure there's going to be one per se, at least not in the sense that Peter P. betrayed his friends. Been there, done that and as I said earlier, I don't think Rowling is writing history repeating itself in a literal sense. We've already seen a trusted character betray Harry and turn out to be a Deatheater. Doing it again would be like yet another unregistered animagus, and I think JKR is far too clever for that. JMHO, of course, Jo Serenadust From lmbolland at earthlink.net Mon Oct 13 18:33:19 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:33:19 -0000 Subject: Luna's Name (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: <005201c391a9$2d2054e0$fe510043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82840 > ??? So is Luna beneath Harry in your view, or is Harry beneath Luna, as per > _The Little White Horse?_ Sorry to be vague. Harry is the savior of this particular universe. If there was some small parallel between the HP books and JKR's favorite childhood book The Little White Horse, in regard to the future spouse of the savior character, then Harry would need to marry someone LESS socially acceptable than he. I supposed that Luna was, indeed, less socially acceptable than Harry. Lauri B. From urghiggi at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 18:37:06 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:37:06 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82841 Jo Serenadust wrote: > As for who I think the betrayer will be, I'm not so sure there's > going to be one per se, at least not in the sense that Peter P. > betrayed his friends. Been there, done that and as I said earlier, I > don't think Rowling is writing history repeating itself in a literal > sense. We've already seen a trusted character betray Harry and turn > out to be a Deatheater. Doing it again would be like yet another > unregistered animagus, and I think JKR is far too clever for that. > urghiggi added: yeah... are there canonical hints anyplace regarding this OoP "betrayer," or is it strictly speculative? (Because JKR's got plenty on the plot plate without having to add a big serving of history-repeats-itself....) From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Mon Oct 13 18:37:11 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:37:11 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031014072844.00a4dd90@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82842 At 10:56 13/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Hickengruendler wrote > >That said, I want do add, that I don't think Lupin is the traitor >either, or Molly Weasley, for that matter. After all, Harry's dead >body was a part of her boggart. Maybe JK is nice, and the traitor (if >there is any!) will be someone, we don't know to much about, yet. Me now. With all this talk of Lupin as the traitor, I went back and read the fight scene. However, I went on and read a bit of the chapter after, keeping in context. If he is, he's a heck of an actor. The words he said to Harry and the tone. But then on the other hand, to fool everyone, he would have to be. However, reading it gave me fresh doubts to this idea, and I hope he isn't a traitor. Still if as is suggested, history is to repeat, I feel it is more likely to be someone from Harry's generation who has not been lured over quite just yet. Tanya From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 19:34:24 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:34:24 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: who will betray the Order? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82843 >Just my opinion though, now to whom I think might be... could >be... persuaded? >I really hate to say it, but... here goes... Molly Weasley. *If* there is a spy, and *if* it is someone really close to Harry (as opposed to being a member of Dumbledore's Army/the Order of the Phoenix/the Ministry of Magic), then I agree with you, but not for the reasons you gave. Voldemort is quite capable of realizing (especially with Wormtail's help) that Molly has a weakness he can exploit. If he started communicating with her quietly and threatening her children, she would probably be too frightened to defy him, and also afraid to tell the Order or her husband because they might do something to provoke Voldemort to hurt one of the children. And it would work even better if Voldemort pointed out that one of Molly's children was not only out of her protection, but under his (Voldemort's) influence and he could get at him anytime he wanted to ... (If Percy ever found out that Voldemort was using him that way, he might actually Get A Clue and redeem himself.) And no matter who else was killed, as long as it wasn't any member of Molly's family, she could persuade herself she was doing the right thing. Until, of course, the next time he tried to kill Harry. However, I personally think it's going to be Fudge. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 13 19:46:02 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:46:02 -0000 Subject: Killer!Lupin (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > And it makes Lupin look like the good, caring friend we all think > he is, doesn't it? He's concerned for Sirius' safety and possibly > for Snape as well. He makes it look like he's got everyone's best > > interest at heart while ensuring the Occlumency lessons wouldn't > > continue. Snape gets the blame for stopping the lessons. No one > > questions Lupin about it. > > We have no proof either way whether the conversation between Snape > and Remus took place. And whether it did or didn't, the result > would have been pretty much the same, imo. Snape would not have > continued the lessons short of a direct order from DD. Actually there is some indirect evidence that Lupin raised that issue, if not with Snape then with Dumbledore. In the post-mortem discussion between Harry and Dumbledore, Harry tells DD that Snape stopped giving him occlumency lessons. DD not only tells him that he already knows, but that he knows the reason as well. I find it extremely unlikely and out of character for Snape to have gone to DD to complain that Harry peeked into his private embarassing memories. DD was no longer in the school when the pensieve incident happened. So how could he have learned about it? I assume he heard it from Lupin (or possibly from Sirius, but I am inclined to think it was Lupin who failed convincing Snape so turned instead to DD). > Laura, who is absolutely not buying the ESE!Lupin theories. Ditto here. Salit From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 13 20:19:25 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:19:25 +0100 Subject: Who will betray the order Message-ID: <89F92CFC-FDBA-11D7-B75A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82845 Oh, goody! It warms the cockles of my evil heart when I read of betrayal and treason - so much more satisfying than the recent outbreak of rosy-hued optimism and light. I think (forgive me if I'm wrong), that it was Pip who was one of the main begetters of the idea that betrayal would be central to the story. That it would be a low intensity war; no great armies marching to battle, but skirmishes, spying and betrayal. After all, even Muggles would tend to notice a few hundred Goblins devastating the countryside while on their lunch-break from Gringotts. I agree that we can expect limited fighting but much going on beneath the surface. Much of what follows is mostly a re-cap; but it might be helpful to pull together the gists of a few posts into one, just for the convenience of the reader. There are two possible targets for betrayal; Harry or the Order, and they are not necessarily the same thing. Harry could be sold out by Ron, Hermione, Seamus - any one of his friends (enemies can't betray you), but it's doubtful that any of these could betray the Order in any meaningful way. They don't know enough about it or what it's up to and so could not cause significant destruction. Then there are those within the Order. They would be able to bring DD's plans to a screeching halt by having a little tete-a-tete with their friendly neighbourhood Death Eater. In addition any betrayal could be either comprehensive (enough information passed to result in the destruction of the Order) or targeted (aimed at one or more individuals). This is where it gets interesting because IMO not enough thought is being given to motive - the *Why?* of it. The destruction of the Order is unlikely. Who in the Order would be happy to see Voldy win? Anybody? Who could benefit? No-one that I can see, despite spending many hours building theories and scenarios on the flimsiest of evidence. Oh, I could be wrong, Molly might be a secret Death Eater, but it's not really credible within the existing canon. (Of course, if DD decides to sacrifice the Order or Harry as a means to trap and destroy Voldemort, that's not betrayal, is it?) So it would be more fruitful to consider targeted betrayal. This is a very different cauldron of toads because such action will probably turn out to be based on the most believable of motives - revenge. The canker that festers; the result of actions, words, slights (real or imagined) that may take years to ripen, but when it does - watch out. Pippin has for a long time had her beady eye on Remus. The fight in the Ministry is written so that he certainly appears to have the opportunity to zap Sirius. OK, if he did, why? Was he anti-Order? What could Voldy offer him? The chance to run around biting people on the third Thursday in every month? Right, is he anti-Harry then? Doesn't appear to be, seems to quite like him. So what's left? There's another possibility; it wasn't anything to do with Sirius being in the Order or Harry, it was a personal motive. Here's one I prepared earlier (78157), this bit was about the 'prank'. > Second repercussion: Lupin does some thinking. Sirius put me at risk - maybe. Sirius was certainly responsible for Snape finding out that I am a werewolf. Snape is responsible for me losing my job at Hogwarts, for telling the pupils parents, for me being unemployable. Ultimately, it's all Sirius' fault, yet he's the one getting all the sympathy. This pisses me off. What shall I do about it? Well, the opportunity arises during the fight at the MoM. Lupin's actions (or inaction) have caused comment on the site before. Perhaps he took the revenge option - zap! and Sirius falls through the curtain. Maybe that particular finale was planned, most likely not. But a free shot at Sirius could have had great appeal for some-one feeling hard done by. Could even give one thoughts of betrayal? > (It is interesting that JKR has been so hard on WMPP. One zapped by Voldy; another 12 years in Azkaban and then zapped; a third betrays, spends years as a rat, then ends up as Voldy's spare parts bank, plus Lupin the werewolf. One might almost think that she had something against them, that they were getting their just desserts. But I digress.) It could be represented as a betrayal of Sirius to protect Harry. Sirius was not the most stable, thoughtful or restrained of individuals, but Harry doted on him. Any threat to Sirius would see Harry rushing to the rescue, (as in OoP) and putting Harry and/or DD's plans at risk. Remus knows Sirius of old and sitting around Grimmauld Place listening to him complain about not doing anything could have rung warning bells in Remus' mind. Impulse!Sirius would be a real danger to Harry; why not make Harry safer? (Incidentally the same motive could be ascribed to Dumbledore; see 80199) Quite a few posters are casting suspicious glances at ole Snapey. If Harry is the hero, Voldy the villain, DD the key player, then Snape is by far the most interesting. He's already switched sides once, why would he do it again? Under normal circumstances, in any other book, Sevvy would be the prime candidate for the double agent slot. Not in this one, I think. I've posted before about Snape, long and often; the theme being that, like Remus, IMO it's not about principle, it's personal. He's a natural born DE; doesn't seem to like anyone. I think he's got a big, big grudge against Voldy the *individual* not in his role as the personification of evil. And he wants revenge sooooo badly. (see 69509) Nobody in the Order likes him, most, given a choice, wouldn't trust him. But Dumbledore resolutely insists that he can be relied upon. Malfoy, Crabbe, McNair are his natural friends and allies, the people he feels comfortable with, but in this they can't or won't help him. So it's time to follow the old adage, "My enemy's enemy is my friend." Why else is DD so trusting of him other than by understanding and appreciating his obsession? He knows Snape won't flinch until Voldy is down. Afterwards Snape will probably go back to his old friends and sing the old songs around the campfire, but that won't bother DD in the slightest. He'll have won. Some talk of Ron, but IMO that won't hold water. The Weasley cash-flow crisis has eased over the past two books, Ron is esconced in the Quidditch team, no females around that are likely to cause a rift, so no, unless something new and big turns up he'll carry on being Sancho to Harry's Quixote. The biggest danger of all is, of course, Harry himself. He is not acting in the most reasonable way and now that I've given him a motive (82718), well, anything is possible. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 20:24:13 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:24:13 -0000 Subject: Killer!Lupin (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: Laura: Imo, Snape would not have continued the lessons short of a direct order from DD. > Salit > Actually there is some indirect evidence that Lupin raised that > issue, if not with Snape then with Dumbledore. In the post-mortem > discussion between Harry and Dumbledore, Harry tells DD that Snape > stopped giving him occlumency lessons. DD not only tells him that he > already knows, but that he knows the reason as well. Laura again: it's equally likely that DD was checking in directly with Snape so that he could learn what, if anything, LV was trying to put into Harry's head. I bet that Snape told DD that Harry asked about the DoM after the occlumency lesson in which he figured out that that was the corridor he was seeing. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 20:39:14 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:39:14 -0000 Subject: Who will betray the order In-Reply-To: <89F92CFC-FDBA-11D7-B75A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > > Oh, goody! It warms the cockles of my evil heart when I read of > betrayal and treason - so much more satisfying than the recent outbreak > of rosy-hued optimism and light. Laura: So nice to have you back, Kneasy. > > I think (forgive me if I'm wrong), that it was Pip who was one of the > main begetters of the idea that betrayal would be central to the story. > That it would be a low intensity war; no great armies marching to > battle, but skirmishes, spying and betrayal. Laura: I know that this was a summary, and most helpful one, but it still begs the question-will there be a betrayal at all, and if so, why? I'm not sure what Harry could learn at this point from (yet another) betrayal. He's already experienced quite a few: he was thoroughly taken in by Tom Riddle, he goes through the whole "Sirius or Peter" business in PoA, he thinks Mad Eye has betrayed him in GoF, and Marietta rats out the DA in OoP. So what would be the point of more of the same? And if you like the betrayal theory, Kneasy, who do you think it will be? I notice you carefully didn't commit yourself in your post. Are you being uncharacteristically diplomatic or just...um...sneaky? From katiecannon2000 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 21:40:33 2003 From: katiecannon2000 at yahoo.com (katiecannon2000) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:40:33 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Now me: > Yes, I've heard this before, but how do you suppose Petunia new > Snape? James hated him, so I don't think he would have had him over > to meet the girlfriend's family. And even if Lily was friendly with > Snape would he, who clearly hates mudbloods, have taken time to meet > her muggle family? > I'm interested in the rest of your theory. > Mandy Just some vague gut feeling that Petunia is more than she lets on vis a vis the wizarding world. I think my theory is more along the lines of "this is one of those interrupted statements that we are assuming something and we are assuming incorrectly." Maybe a little less "It was Snape." From DMCourt11 at cs.com Mon Oct 13 22:11:19 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:11:19 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley" wrote: > Q1: As Arabella's "cats" do not seem to attract interest by having an > unusual appearance, are they only part-Kneazle as well? Will Harry > now be able to identify Mrs. Figg's cats if he needs to? Any ideas > how the Kneazle's ability to "guide its owner safely home if they are > lost" will come into play in canon? Mrs. Figg and Filch are the only > Squibs we've met (that we know of); does Mrs. Norris fall into the > part-Kneazle category, too? Or is she a transfigured person unable > to change back? (Was that why Filch was taking the Kwik Spell > course?) Donna: Does anyone else find it interesting that the only two squibs we've met may both have part Kneazles as pets? I say "may" because Mrs. Norris is not confirmed as a Kneazle but, like Kneazy's posted, I think she is. Perhaps squibs are encouraged to form a relationship with them because if the part Kneazle takes a liking to them and agrees to be their pet, a squib is offered some protection from Dark Wizards? To quote from Fantastic Beasts: "The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavory or suspicious characters..." A squib knows about the WW, and even if they are like Mrs. Figg and live outside it, they are more connected than Muggles, but are just as defenseless. A part Kneazle could be a great help as a warning system and also to lead the squib to a safe place, not just "home". I suddenly thought of "The Egg and the Eye" chapter in GOF, and reread the parts that mention Mrs. Norris. She's only mentioned once after FakeMoody comes on the scene, that she gives a loud meow and peers around Filch's leg, looking around, Harry thinks, for the source of the bubble bath smell. If she is part Kneazle, is her agitation because she senses someone evil nearby? Everyone is treating him as Moody; their body language indicates trust, but she can sense something is off inside? The only other confirmed half Kneazle belongs to Hermione, who is far from a squib. Crookshanks purpose in POA was to show that Sirius was not the villain in that book, if anyone was in the know about Kneazles. What will be his purpose in future books? Perhaps Hermione will become too overconfident of her abilities and need Crookshank to save her? > Q3: What *does* "spoiled, pampered Dudley" hear when attacked by > Dementors? Donna: Probably things he's overheard on the playgrounds: that he's dumb, he's a spoilt mama's "ickle Duddums." The deep inner voice that tells him he's feared as a bully but not respected, that he's never developed the social skills to get along with people. He's never had any real friends, and his parents are the only two people who will ever think well of him. Now that I've depressed myself by thinking of what a Dementor would pull out of Dudley's psyche, I'm off to make supper. From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 13 23:21:31 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:21:31 -0000 Subject: Who will betray the order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > And if you like the betrayal theory, Kneasy, who do you think it > will be? I notice you carefully didn't commit yourself in your > post. Are you being uncharacteristically diplomatic or > just...um...sneaky? I am not kneasy, and have already proposed Snape as a possible betrayal candidate (after DD died), but it occured to me that there was another person who could betray the order and/or Harry - Mundungus. After all, it is a bit suspicious that the dementors just "happen" to show up about an hour after he skips off, supposedly to get some stolen caulderons. How could Umbridge know that he was gone? She can't see through invisibility cloaks, after all. The dementors could not be hanging around either - Harry would have seen them or felt them. The time lapse between Dung's disappearance and the dementors arrival was sufficient for him to report to her so she could set the dementors on Harry. The second time we see him following Harry is the Hogs Head where, interestingly enough, someone again tips off Umbridge. We are supposed to think it's that toilet guy, but maybe it was a group effort. Motive? Well, Dung is a crook. He seems to be willing to go pretty low to make some money, or it may just be a convenient facade. The only guarantee we have that he is loyal is that he owes something to DD. Interestingly, just like Snape. Too many suspicious characters in the order whose only motive appears to be loyalty to DD. I'd take the candidate from that group... Salit (preparing to hide against the screams from all Snape/Dung lovers :-)) From jesmck at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 23:48:06 2003 From: jesmck at yahoo.com (jesmck) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:48:06 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82851 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley" > wrote: > > Q3: What *does* "spoiled, pampered Dudley" hear when attacked by > > Dementors? > hickengruendler" responded: > Maybe the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident? I think this was a really awful > incident and surely not a pleasant memory for Dudley. Jessica writes: It could also be the incident when Hagrid gave Dudley a pig tail in SS/PS. Didn't it say that he had to have it surgically removed? That couldn't have been pleasant. From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 00:03:04 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:03:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jesmck" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley" > > > wrote: > > > Q3: What *does* "spoiled, pampered Dudley" hear when attacked by > > > Dementors? > > > hickengruendler" responded: > > > Maybe the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident? I think this was a really > awful > > incident and surely not a pleasant memory for Dudley. > > Jessica writes: > It could also be the incident when Hagrid gave Dudley a pig tail in > SS/PS. Didn't it say that he had to have it surgically removed? > That couldn't have been pleasant. Now me: I think Dudley was thinking about something far worse. The book says Harry wondered what Dudley could possibly have thought of, so it would probably be an incident he (Harry) was not aware of. Even though the Ton-Tongue-Toffee and Pigtail incidents were unpleasant, I don't think they were dementor-worthy. Elli From furkin1712 at aol.com Sun Oct 12 23:51:10 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:51:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia/Lilly Wedding Parties (WAS Re: New Poll for HPfor... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82853 Hickengruendler: "But as soon as the howler arrived, she decided what should happen with Harry. Vernon could have thrown him out anyway, even if Petunia doesn't agree with it. But obviously he doesn't want to annoy her." I agree with you but I saw this part of your response and simply had to comment: Do you think that Vernon is almost afraid of Petunia because maybe she's a witch who renounced her magic but he's afriad that to go against her would cause her to pull an "aunt marge" (blow something up unintenionally)? What do you think> I think that Petunia may have been at the Wedding but she might have not wanted to go, I know that if I were her I wouldn't. I also don't think Lily was invited to her wedding, and even though Lily's a lot nicer, why wouldn't Lily return the favor of saving 50 bucks on a wedding gift? I dunno, but I think Petunia's behavior of watching out for Sirius can be taken either as she remembered him and was afraid or she was being a busy-body. If this makes no sense blame on my brain because the flu has taken control by now. Blue Eyes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From csgkll8 at aol.com Mon Oct 13 13:33:19 2003 From: csgkll8 at aol.com (napnoy2003) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:33:19 -0000 Subject: Speaking of Wands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joanna Barra" said: > > > .................................................. > I believe that Peter took the wand as a souvenir. He probably thought be > could use it.Or it might have predicted that LV would be parcially destroyed > that night (I am sure the prophecy we all know about in OotP is incomplete), > So there fore LV told Peter to look after his wand until he returns..... How could LV have given the wand to Peter for safe keeping BEFORE going to Godrics Hollow? We already know, from the priori incantatem spell in GOF that it was LV's wand that AK'd Lily and James - meaning he had to have had it in his possession when his final curse backfired. He probably spent much time ensuring that his wand would bind to him if anything bad were to happen to him, or that it would survive anything and return to him with a simple summoning charm (performed as wandless magic of course!) Napnoy > _________________________________________________________________ > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile From anabel.w at ukonline.co.uk Mon Oct 13 18:52:10 2003 From: anabel.w at ukonline.co.uk (angelinawood76) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:52:10 -0000 Subject: Wands and Wotcher In-Reply-To: <007401c390db$eb5a3120$5aee79a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82855 That slang website is great - thanks for the link! I can't imagine why JK uses the word wotcher though, as it seems a bit dated. I grew up in London and I haven't heard anyone use that term since the eighties. I suppose she uses it to highlight what generation Tonks is from. (Ha! Answered my own question!) angelina --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > > > > > > Deirdre Woodward said: > > > And what does Wotcher mean? Tonks says that a couple of times -- > > "Wotcher, Harry!" Is it some kind of greeting? > > > > Yes. British slang. Personally I think it's more used in the south. I used > > to use it whilst I was growing up in London, but I don't seem to hear it > now > > I'm in the northern wastelands. > > > > Jerry > > Iggy here: > > I got this from the "Dictionary of Slang" site > > http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/w.htm > > wotcha! Exclam. A greeting. A shortening of what cheer! Also spelt wotcher. > [Mainly London use] > > > Iggy McSnurd > the Prankster From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sun Oct 12 18:44:01 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:44:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who will betray the order? References: Message-ID: <001201c390f1$b7ff8440$d8ec79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82856 Iggy here: I just now finished reading the scene of Sirius' death, and have a few observations: 1- Sirius was almost enjoying the fight with his cousin, Bellatrix, and was taunting her. Only one couple were still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely in the chest. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. (OotP, ch 35, p 805, US ed.) It does not say anything to indicate that the second shot wasn't from Bellatrix's wand. Merely that he ducked the first one. The shock he felt could very well be from the fact that he never expected his cousin to be able to beat him, or from the fact that he didn't see the second one coming. There is also no indication that the second shot came from below the dais. 2 - An arc doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be blown up into the air. It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch... (OotP, ch 35, p806, US ed) The quote states that he *sank* through the veil, not that his body flew through the veil. Sinking implies that there was no gain in altitude to be atributed to a shot from below, which is what would have happened if he was shot from below. Him sinking would indicate that he was either shot by someone on his own level, or from above. 3 - Sirius probably had some inkling of what the veil was, especially being in the Order. Lupin and Dumbledore, even Luna (who wasn't in the Order) all understood what it was. And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind and then fell back into place. (OotP, ch 35, p806, US ed) If Sirius knew what the veil was, and had that sudden realization of where he was going to land, I would definately say he would be surprised and scared... we all would be. If you knew that you were going to die immediately, and you also knew that there was nothing you could do about it, I'm sure you would have the same expression on your face as he did. It would be much like that slow motion moment of someone who almost sees the bullet leave the gun when someone shoots them. 4 - There was no indication that Lupin was actually below the level of the dais. It is merely shown that Lupin intercepted him at ground level. Remus could just have easily been up a few steps as well, saw what Harry was doing, and ran to intercept him. As a larger adult, he would reach the floor before Harry. 5 - Lupin seemed to be in as much shock as Harry, he just controlled it better since he had seen more in his life. "He can't come back, Harry," said Lupin, his voice breaking as he struggled to contain Harry. "He can't come back, because he's d---" (OotP, ch 36, p807, US ed) "Here," said Lupin quietly, and pionting his wand at Neville's legs he said, "Finite." The spell was lifted. Neville's legs fell back to the floor and remained still. Lupin's face was pale. "Let's -- find the others. Where are they all, Neville?" Lupin turned away from the archway as he spoke. It sounded as though every word was causing him pain. (OotP, ch 36, p807, US ed) To me, these are indicators of someone controlling his grief over witnessing the death of his last remaining true friend. Whenever he could, Sirius stood by Lupin, and even let him stay at his house. They had been friends since school, which would mean at least 20 years, if not more. Had Lupin truly hated Sirius and wanted to kill him, he could have just done so without listening to his side of the story in PoA, and would have gotten away with it cleanly. 6 - When he told Harry to "round up the others and GO!" it is a reasonable action of a man who wants to see the son of his late friends, as well as the other students, get away to safety while those who are more experienced deal with the Death Eaters. This does not necessarilly mean that he was trying to get rid of witnesses to a crime he was planning. I hope this helps eliminate the feeling that Lupin is a traitor. Lord knows I don't think he is. Just my herd of centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "Not all who wander are lost." -- ABS FIRECAT (and a quote from Tolkein, if I recall correctly.) From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 13 19:50:06 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:50:06 -0000 Subject: Wands and Wotcher In-Reply-To: <010e01c391a1$904810b0$0e010001@jmd2000> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Davis" wrote: > > Deirdre Woodward said: > > And what does Wotcher mean? Tonks says that a couple of times -- > "Wotcher, Harry!" Is it some kind of greeting? Jerry: > Yes. British slang. Personally I think it's more used in the south. I used > to use it whilst I was growing up in London, but I don't seem to hear it now > I'm in the northern wastelands. > Very much London, not strictly Cockney. I even use it myself after 45 years in the place. It has been suggested from this that Ron might have Cockney connections and, as you say, it has been used in the books on more than one occasion. Geoff From abush at maine.rr.com Mon Oct 13 21:49:25 2003 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:49:25 -0000 Subject: Who will be the traitor? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82858 As much as it upsets me, I must say many have expressed convincing arguments about Lupin...but I still hope he's a good guy. Deedee wrote: "It may well be DD...I could too easily imagine DD (esp. at the end of oop) selling out(emotionally and unintentionally) Harry because 'he thought it would improve Harry's quality of life'." As I read what you wrote, Deedee, I was reminded of Dumbledore's regret at placing Harry's happiness above the lives of others by postponing giving Harry the whole truth. Could it be that Dumbledore, in trying to avoid that mistake again, will sacrifice Harry for the good of wizardkind? kylie From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sun Oct 12 23:22:24 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:22:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Killer!Lupin (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!) References: Message-ID: <000701c39117$b435b5c0$a0ef79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82859 Iggy again: BTW: one bit I forgot to mention... When Bellatrix was talking to Voldemort after the main battle ("But Master, you should know..." or something like that...) and was cut off, about a paragraph later, she told Voldemort "But he's here..." (paraphrasing) and he ignored her. All details indicate that she was trying to tell him that Dumbledore was downstairs. I think what's happening sometimes is that sometimes people look at individual quotes on occasion (and I'm guilty of this on occasion as well) and narrow their focus onto that as an indicator of something without looking at all the circumstances and other actions or dialogue that surrounds the quote. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster (who wonders when he's going to be taken off moderated status so that he doesn't look like he's always jumping in and repeating what others are saying due to "release lag." *chuckle*) From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 14 00:38:29 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:38:29 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin Kill Sirius? (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82860 Wow! Evil Lupin supporters are apparating in from all over! I don't know if Lupin killed Sirius. Sirius to Peter: "You weren't about to commit murder under Albus Dumbledore's nose." I was thinking JKR was telling us no wizard would have the guts to try something like that. All the DE's except crazy Bella stop fighting as soon as Dumbledore arrives. And then I remembered the rest of it, "for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all of his power." Voldemort has returned. That changes everything. Maybe that quote was foreshadowing and JKR was hinting that someone *would* commit murder under Dumbledore's nose when Voldemort returned. But why would Lupin have turned against his friends and joined the Dark Side anyway? And why kill Sirius in such a risky fashion? Phil: >>>>In talking about the goblins going over to LV, in OOP, 5: "I think it depends what they're offered," said Lupin. "And I'm not talking about gold; if they're offered freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted." Lupin might be tempted by an offer from LV to cure him of being a werewolf.<<<< On a hunch, I googled "multiple sclerosis" and "orphan drug." http://www.nationalmssociety.org/%5CSourcebook-Orphan%20 Drugs.asp ====The term "orphan drugs" is used for both experimental and proven drug therapies that are intended for conditions that affect a limited number of people. In these instances where the potential market is very small, pharmaceutical manufacturers have little financial incentive to develop or market the drugs==== This is a problem that JKR would have faced personally in her mother's struggle with MS. Werewolves are impoverished and there aren't enough of them to pay for extensive research into their condition. There's so much more money in haircare products. Sleekeasy's, anyone? But Voldemort has a use for tame werewolves. What if he could command werewolves the way he can command the basilisk? I think we may find out that Snape did some of the research on the wolfsbane potion while he was working for Lord Voldemort. Lupin might have been drawn into this effort, by trickery or by disillusionment with the Order. The Order isn't in business to gain rights for werewolves. Dumbledore is on the same side as anyone who will work against Voldemort, including bigots like Fudge. And Dumbledore is on the optimistic side when it comes to people overcoming their longterm prejudices and working together. We can only speculate on what happened after Lupin left Hogwarts. But... During the last century, smart, idealistic Cambridge-educated young men became spies for the Soviet Union, They dismissed or made excuses for the Stalinist purges. Would Lupin be any wiser? ***speculation*** Dumbledore hoped that having spent 7 years at Hogwarts without any incident, Lupin would be accepted by the Wizarding World when he left school. But those 7 years coincided with the rise of Voldemort. Fear and suspicion of strange wizards was everywhere. Hagrid and Sirius speak of the dark days when no one knew whom to trust. Despite all the influence Dumbledore could bring to bear, no one was willing to give Lupin a chance. It wasn't the best time for a werewolf rights break through. . Lupin joined the Order, perhaps because he believed in it, or perhaps because his only friends did. He couldn't get a real job. There wasn't much he could do to help the Order or vice versa. The Order was trying to get all wizardkind behind them and were rights were a divisive issue. They told Lupin to wait, to be patient. But young men are not naturally patient. Lupin had been waiting seven long years already. He may have needed money and felt inferior to his independently wealthy friends James and Sirius. And Voldemort lied...it wouldn't be as easy as you think to see through him, because the ministry was lying too, trying to cover up Voldemort's outrages from the Muggles. Voldemort could claim that he deplores the excesses done in his name, that he opposes Muggles and Mugglelovers because immigrants to the wizarding world bring their superstitious fear of "monsters" with them. All will be sweetness and light once the magical world is purified of their influence. Lupin hates and dreads himself for what he is...how would it feel to be valued for his Darkness instead of in spite of it, not just by a little clique at school but by the followers of the most powerful Wizard the world has ever known? ***end speculation**** Samnaya (82770): >>Only thing missing is a solid evil motive. Lupin could have been turned just because of the prejudice that wizards have borne towards werewolves, but is it enough? He might not even be loyal to or working for Voldemort and is just acting as a "lone wolf" (sorry, I couldnt resist that).<< KathyK (82807): It's possible he could be acting alone. In that case, though, why kill Sirius if not to further Voldemort's cause by hurting Harry? Could it be that Lupin's just grown so bitter and angry over the years toward Sirius who helped ruin his life by tricking Snape into the passage under the Whomping Willow? (Apologies to Kneasy, I believe he's the one who threw something along these lines out there a while ago) Has Lupin been planning for this ever since Sirius escaped and has been biding his time for the right moment to strike? Salit (82810): >>Sorry I don't buy it. Lupin is such a *decent* person there is no way in my mind that he could be the traitor<< Lupin may not be a vicious person but he seems to be an alarmingly cold-blooded one. He is willing to murder his former friend Peter. He never expresses sympathy for anybody but his pals. He feels bad for not reining in his friends and for taking advantage of Dumbledore's trust, but his remorse rings hollow since he never offered any apology or restitution nor did he change his ways. Lauri writes (82813): >>I don't think it'll be anyone from the "older" generations either. I suspect the one to betray the order will come from Harry's generation, it's THEIR story this time.<< Up to the end of OOP, Harry thought his task was to live up to his father's legacy. The readers, well, this one anyway, have always suspected that Harry's task is actually to succeed where his father failed. James failed to catch the traitor, failed to save Lily, failed to keep his friends from turning to the Dark Side, failed to reconcile with Snape, failed to trust Dumbledore fully. I think Harry's friends will be tempted as James's were, but because they remain united, they will stand fast. Snape is not remote from the story. There are hints that James disregarded information from Snape that could have saved him and Lily. Will Harry make the same mistake because he's blaming the wrong person for Sirius's death? Since James was undone by treachery, Harry must face treachery and defeat it. Not knowing whom to trust is a major theme in all the books. But let's to business. Assuming that Lupin killed Sirius, why? It cannot have been a random killing. Bella had engaged Sirius already. If Lupin just wanted to off somebody for the DE side, then he would have done more good, so to speak, by killing Tonks or Moody. It can not have been purely a crime of opportunity. Lupin had passed up many better chances to kill Sirius. I think Talisman is on the right track. Almost. Somehow, Dumbledore's arrival sealed Sirius's fate. But not because Dumbledore wanted Black dead. I think Sirius had to die because Dumbledore's arrival could mean only one thing. The DE plan had gone awry. Kreacher had confessed to the wrong person. To abridge OOP: "It was the Elf who told me-laughing fit to burst-where Sirius had gone" "He was laughing?" "Oh yes" [1] Kreacher did not behave like an innocent Elf. He deliberately invited discovery by taunting Dumbledore. What if the Malfoys ordered Kreacher to confess so that another traitor would remain hidden? What if Kreacher only feigned his attempts to resist questioning? What if the confession was only partly true? Suppose that Sirius had stayed behind and Kreacher had laughed at *him.* Sirius would have questioned Kreacher. Sirius would have learned that Kreacher had betrayed him. You don't need to be a seer to predict what would have happened next. Sirius would have murdered Kreacher or ordered him to die. By the time Dumbledore arrived there would have been no one left to reveal that Kreacher was not the only traitor at Grimmauld Place. But no battle plan survives the beginning of the battle. Sirius disobeyed orders and went to the MOM. As it fell out, Dumbledore was the first to question Kreacher. And Kreacher lied as he had been ordered to do. Yes, even when Dumbledore thought he had got the truth out of him. House Elves can lie to people who are not their masters without having to punish themselves. If an occlumens is skilled enough he can lie to a legilimens undetected. Dumbledore has been deceived time and again.[2] If Sirius had survived to return to Grimmauld Place then together he and Dumbledore might have arrived at the truth. Dumbledore wouldn't have let Sirius kill Kreacher, and if Kreacher repeated his lies to his master, he would have had to reveal it by punishing himself. ESE!Lupin had only a moment or two after Dumbledore arrived at the MOM to save himself. If Kreacher's false confession held up against Dumbledore's legilimency, then Lupin still had a chance. If not, then there was nothing to lose by one more killing. Sirius had to die. Lupin's emotional turmoil may have been genuine, though whether he mourned Sirius or the failure of his plan to spare him we don't yet know. Hmmmm. Pippin almost convinced [1] OOP- ch 37 "I tell you once, I tell you twice, what I tell you three times is true." - Lewis Carroll. Are snorkaks related to snarks? [2] House Elves lie~OOP ch. 37. Occlumency defeating Legilimency~OOP ch. 24 I have a theory about Legilimency. We know that the most powerful magics rely on the state of mind of the user. You can ride a broom if you are utterly confident of your ability, dismiss Dementors only if you know you can, and so on. To detect falsehood, I suspect, the legilimens must be 100% confident in his ability. Which means that Dumbledore cannot doubt himself. So, Dumbledore not only never detects that Quirrell, et al, are deceiving him, he can not allow himself to even consider that they might be. Of course this applies to Voldemort too. Once he's used legilimency on Snape and failed to discover that Snape has betrayed him, Voldemort has no choice but to believe absolutely that Snape is loyal. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue Oct 14 00:40:55 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Oct 2003 00:40:55 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1066092055.181.48165.w36@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82861 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Book 7 Body-Count Poll (created by Mario Pitre): Whom do you believe is likely to be dead by the end of Book 7? (Choose as many as you like.) o Harry o Hermione o Ron o Neville o Dumbledore o McGonagall o Hagrid o Snape o Lupin o Arthur o Molly o Fred or George o Ginny o Percy o Bill or Charlie o Mad-Eye Moody o Cho Chang o Draco o Crabbe or Goyle o Lucius o Luna o Fudge o Karkaroff o Krum To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1144326 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 04:07:48 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 04:07:48 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: <3F8A8D10.6090105@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82862 msbeadsley wrote: > The crux of the issue for me is that *going to* Ollivander's might > not be necessary more than once. You get "measured" for your first > wand by the process of being "selected" by the wand you get. Later, > (lots of snippage) Jazmyn wrote: > Ollivander is not the only one who makes wands. He didn't make > Krum's wand or Fleur's wand either. This means there are OTHER > wand makers Sirius can get wands from, some in countries where he > is not known to be a wanted man. And certainly if there is > mentioned at one point a shop with 'used wands', then wands are not > that hard to get. Note: in the "lots of snippage" I (msbeadsley) also said the following: > We do know that two of the TWT champions had wands not from > Ollivander's; I don't see why someone couldn't put in a special owl > order outside his or her own country's jurisdiction to one of their > suppliers. Am I confused, or did Jazmyn not actually read my whole post before she responded as if I hadn't said what I said? Sandy From yswahl at stis.net Tue Oct 14 04:24:39 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 04:24:39 -0000 Subject: Not Killer!Lupin - dont use presuppositions to "prove" your case In-Reply-To: <000701c39117$b435b5c0$a0ef79a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82863 Iggy McSnurd ================== When Bellatrix was talking to Voldemort after the main battle ("But Master, you should know..." or something like that...) and was cut off, about a paragraph later, she told Voldemort "But he's here..." (paraphrasing) and he ignored her. All details indicate that she was trying to tell him that Dumbledore was downstairs. Samnanya ================== "All details"? Exactly what details are you referring to? Every single detail? Then why didnt JKR just have Bellatrix say "Forget Potter! Dumbledore is downstairs!" --and warn her master of the danger? NO ONE {except for JKR - and she aint talkin'} can say from that quote what Bella was trying to tell Voldemort. She could have been saying "You shoould know that DD is Downstairs" or "You should know that you are a real jerk for wandering in here with all those order of the phoenix people downstairs" or "You should know that Lupin is on our side now. He just killed Sirius!" or "You should know by now that Harry already broke the prophecy orb! So what the hell are you doing here, Dorklord ?????" Well, we certainly do not know ..... and how boring if we did! Instead of these direct quotes, JKR has skillfully split Bella's thoughts so that there can be at least some doubt in the reader's mind about what was supposedly meant to be said. That is what creates the tension and the page turning of a good story. The reader is EXPECTED to assume that Bella is trying to warn LV that Dumbledore is below -- but that does not have to be the case! And tis uncertainty is also what fuels the speculations and theories on websites like this. If it was clear that Bellatrix killed Sirius, Snape is evil, Harry can't die, and Ginny ends up with the Giant Squid, {or whatever other beliefs we each hold so strongly} then there would never be that much excitement generated about events in the Potterverse. It would be like Hermione reading the Sunday Prophet after the fact in the last chapter .... Iggy McSnurd =============== I think what's happening sometimes is that sometimes people look at individual quotes on occasion (and I'm guilty of this on occasion as well)and narrow their focus onto that as an indicator of something without looking at all the circumstances and other actions or dialogue that surrounds the quote. Samnanya I can say that I am not a generic "people" who "narrow their focus onto that without looking at all the circumstances" --- that would be damning me and not my argument (and saying that you are guilty of it too does not mitigate your statement). I have read the sections that I quoted many many times and am approaching what JKR wrote from an assumption (killer!Lupin) that is just as valid as (Good!Lupin) -- until proven otherwise. My first reaction to Evil!Lupin was about the same as my reaction to a Harry/Draco ship. . but the arguments i read altered my perceptions and at least opened the POSSIBILITY that Evil!Lupin was valid. I would not fling book 7 into the trash if Evil!Lupin was a key plotpoint. I would not necesarily be happy but I would feel that the seeds had been planted to support Evil!Lupin. They dont have to sprout into devils snare but at least they were cleverly planted. However, when "people" use presuppositions to support their arguments and therefore conclude that their views are correct, they are not using logic to refute an argument, they are using emotion and prejudicial assumptions. What you say that "sometimes happens" has not happened in my analysis. I invite you to rip my arguments apart! Show me canon that refutes Evil!Lupin or causes me to say "Oops!" I am more than happy to admit to errors of fact or logic or bad recollection, and have done so previously on this site. I also dont WANT to believe Evil!Lupin, nor do I HAVE to believe it, but the arguments made by pippin, myself and others are at least in the realm of possibility and cannot easily be discounted {until disproved in canon}. samnanya who does not believe in Harry's feelings towards centaurs..... keep on posting Iggy! This is not personal...... From catlady at wicca.net Tue Oct 14 05:04:12 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 05:04:12 -0000 Subject: re ... :Remus is NOT evil, but Arabella is a Squib Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82864 Kirstini wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82814 : << Lupin does care about other werewolves. Think about the scene in Arthur's hospital ward, where Lupin toddles over to reassure the new werewolf that it isn't all that bad after all. >> Or was that just an excuse to step away from Molly blowing up at Arthur, as the kids did by going for a cup of tea? << Racists who don't like people like him, because he isn't a pure-blood wizard. >> That has never made sense to me: if he was a pureblood before being bitten by a werewolf, why would he stop being a pureblood because of being bitten? Hey, it's not as if he'd been bitten by a *Muggle*. << Kirstini, who wonders if it might be a worthwhile venture setting up a chapter of Apologists for Remus, and if so, what colour the robes would be. >> Silver? Kelley's Chapter Two summary in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82827 said: << Mrs. Figg also mentions that Dumbledore will need to be informed immediately, and dismisses Harry's offer of sending Hedwig to contact him saying, "Harry, you don't understand! Dumbledore will need to act as quickly as possible, the Ministry have their own ways of detecting underage magic, they'll know already, you mark my words --" >> Mrs Figg has a faster way to communicate than owls. She's a member of the Order. I deduce that it is that secret faster communication method of the Order. From that, I deduce that one doesn't have to be magical to use it. Most disgusting ship, worse than Basilisk/Giant Squid: Argus/Mundungus From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Oct 14 05:56:10 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 05:56:10 -0000 Subject: Who will be the Traitor In-Reply-To: <20031012122452.25476.qmail@web12504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dragonetti wrote: > So, who can it be now? IMHO, the real traitor should > have a very low self esteem, so that being a traitor > will make him special. Also he/she should have some > inside information to betray. > I think the traitor will be someone we already know > and trust, because JKR has been underlining the impact > of someone turning his back on DD and the good guys > since the third book. However, she has hid the traitor > well, since a certain name does not pop in my head. > > Does a name pop in your head? > It's not someone we know well, but how about Colin Creevey? He has a major case of hero worship that is very reminicant of Peters hero worship of James. (Except, of course, that Harry doesn't encourage it the way James did...) He has memorized Harry's schedule, follows Harry around, and takes lots of photos. He could easily be passing photos of Harry and the Hogwarts ground and defences to LV. Theres already been an off-hand reference to him possibly being a spy. Totally out of context, but it could be one of a clue left for later. ""Why's that first year taking pictures? I don't like it. He could be a Slytherin spy, trying to find out about our new training program."" Also, his brother, and his father (the milkman) could be easy leverage for LV & the DE's. Just IMHO, of course... --Arcum From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 14 09:45:30 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:45:30 -0000 Subject: Werewolves/Blood / Remus is still NOT evil, (Was also: but Arabella is a Squib) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82866 I wrote (in a list of reasons why Remus wouldn't be stepping over to the Dark Side any time soon): >> Racists who don't like people like him, because he isn't a pure-blood wizard. >> To which Catlady replied: >>That has never made sense to me: if he was a pureblood before being bitten by a werewolf, why would he stop being a pureblood because of being bitten? Hey, it's not as if he'd been bitten by a *Muggle*.>> Actually, I did consider writing "who don't consider him to be a pureblood wizard any more", but didn't, obviously. I'm with you on this on, though. Why does Dolores Umbridge refer to Lupin as a "nasty half-breed"? It has already been agreed all over this list that Riddle's comment about werewolf cubs under Hagrid's bed is unreliable, and that the only way to become a werewolf is to be bitten. So - not bred. Perhaps the unreliability of Umbridge's statement is designed to display her ignorant prejudice. I assume the reason that most wizards don't want to have werewolves round for dinner is because they're scared, rather than because of any particular blood-snobbery. I imagine this would also be the ostensible reasoning behind any anti-werewolf legislation. Perhaps, with all the emphasis put on blood throughout the books, the purity of blood (wizarding) was supposed to have some sort of sanctified power beyond anti-Muggle prejudice in days of yore, so that any deviation/infection was considered to weaken this power? This might explain why the WW has such good medical cure rates/facilities - more emphasis has been put on discovering cures than in our own world - and why life expectancy is so much higher. Obviously, for the story arc of the series to have any meaning at all, this legendary power would have to be proved false in some huge, climatic, expectation shattering way. Any thoughts? Kirstini From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Oct 14 11:51:08 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:51:08 -0000 Subject: Who will betray the order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura: > > I know that this was a summary, and most helpful one, but it still > begs the question-will there be a betrayal at all, and if so, why? > > I'm not sure what Harry could learn at this point from (yet another) > betrayal. He's already experienced quite a few: he was thoroughly > taken in by Tom Riddle, he goes through the whole "Sirius or Peter" > business in PoA, he thinks Mad Eye has betrayed him in GoF, and > Marietta rats out the DA in OoP. So what would be the point of more > of the same? > > And if you like the betrayal theory, Kneasy, who do you think it > will be? I notice you carefully didn't commit yourself in your > post. Are you being uncharacteristically diplomatic or > just...um...sneaky? Cunning, maybe; sneaky? Well, we'll see in due course. I'm obviously looking at potential plot developments from a very different angle from your own viewing stance. Why must everything be a learning experience for Harry? This isn't Pilgrim's Progress, you know. Or at least I hope it isn't. I've been looking forward to each new book as an exciting addition to an epic tale, not as a sociological study in juvenile emotional growth. Sure, we are watching Harry grow up, but IMO that is to provide some continuity to the tale, not an end in itself. The WW is a very tight society; everyone knows everybody else, most are related to each other even if distantly and the attitudes of ancestors seem to carry over into the following generations. In some respects it can almost be considered as one big, extended, not so happy family. In these circumstances I believe that it is the mindset and previous interactions of the individuals that matters, not the wide, all embracing universal principles. To a significant extent I think JKR is pointing us firmly in this direction. Families and bloodlines seem to matter a lot. The number of characters that follow in the family footsteps so far as behaviour and beliefs are concerned seems disproportionately large. Throughout the books, if you know something about a characters family you can be pretty sure about where they stand on most of the issues that arise. When someone acts 'out of character' it is 'out of their family norm'. Hence the shock horror at the behaviour of Percy, the ostracism of Sirius, the puzzle of Snape. He really doesn't belong among those that form the Order, he doesn't fit. Then into all this comes Voldemort. I look on him not as the cause, but as the catalyst. Attitudes that have caused friction for years suddenly have a focus; rather like a speck of dust falling into a super-saturated solution, crystalisation occurs. People take sides, not because of right or wrong, but because of what they already are. Their roles were cast long before Voldy appeared. In these circumstances, (a close, almost inbred society with a long history of bickering, backbiting and antipathy), to individuals, with any scores to settle, it must seem like a backstabbers benefit. IMO betrayal is most likely to be the result of a search for revenge against an individual, not an impersonal action to cause generalised mayhem among the opposition. Revenge is a motive that anyone can understand and appreciate, particularly among families that act as if they were in Renaissance Italy, not the suburbs of England. Why would Remus back Voldy? I can't think of a reason, but I can see him being anti-Sirius, given the right circumstances. Similarly Snape; why is he anti-Voldy? The DEs are his spiritual home, why leave? Not from principle, I'm sure of that. I'm sure that to find the motivations of anyone who does the dirty, look into their past, you'll be sure to find a root cause that is based on previous personal interactions. Who do I think is the least trustworthy? Harry, of course. He's almost being set up for it. Stroppy teenager, unsatisfied with everything that happens, argumentative, uncomfortable with his role, starting to have doubts about Dumbledore and his previous (in)actions. A prime candidate for disaffection; expect Harry to do something incredibly stupid or foolish. He can be got at. (I do have an outsider as a possibility, but I won't be posting my thoughts on that one just yet.) In respect of this, I've never been satisfied with Peter's excuses for his betrayal of James and Lily. Threats from Voldy don't seem to be sufficient, given his situation. Envy, maybe? Kneasy From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 14:18:12 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:18:12 -0000 Subject: Can JKR write dialogue? Her use of "Swifities" says "No." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" wrote: > I came across this item in a thread on the use of adverbs in > attributions of speech in JKR's dialogue over at OTC. I found it > surprising that David [davewitley] reached interpretations of more than one > conversation in the HP books that were at odds with those JKR > intended as evidenced by her modifying adverb. > > The question is whether there is a defect, or ambiguity in the way > JKR creates conversations, and is she relying overmuc on the > modifying adverbs to convey her meaning, which is an inferior > technique to conveying said meaning within the dialogue itself. > > Can anyone cite instances where their intitial impression of the > flavor of an exchange was contradicted by such modifying adverbs? > I will be on the lookout for such, and I ask that you all do as well. > > -Haggridd Annemehr: I remember having the same experiences that David has; when reading aloud, I'd sometimes read a line of dialogue only to find that JKR would specify a different tone of voice than I had used. I came across an example just last night, although the modifiers in this case are adjectives rather than adverbs. In OoP, ch. 37, when Dumbledore first begins talking with Harry after their return from the MoM: "'I know how you are feeling, Harry,' said Dumbledore very quietly. "'No, you don't,' said Harry, and his voice was suddenly loud and strong. White-hot anger lept inside him. Dumbledore knew *nothing* about his feelings." I *always* want to read Harry's line in a sort of strangled, or tight, voice, as if he can hardly bear to speak. My first interpretation is to have Harry speaking through pain, until the modifying phrase tells me he's speaking in anger. If JKR does not want to separate Harry's line from Dumbledore's by inserting a reference to his anger in between [a valid wish, IMO], she could at least have ended it in an exclamation point. I think my eye would have picked up on that as I read the line. Other than the punctuation, is this an example of poor writing? I don't think so. It seems to me either voice, pain or anger, would be appropriate and therefore JKR does need to specify in some way which one Harry uses, and I don't see how she could do that just by changing the actual words Harry speaks. Annemehr From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 15:29:38 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MWPP in all 4 Houses (was: Slytherin and Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: <004301c38f2f$457164c0$beec79a5@rick> Message-ID: <20031014152938.41813.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82869 Then that would either place Sirius in Slytherin as well, or, would render Hagrid's statement completely inaccurate. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster My reply: I still maintain that Hagrid is NOT the most reliable of sources. He exaggerates, or he just was not thinking. The truth is their is nothing that would imply that Sirius Black was a Slytherin really, just this statement. Why has someone not ever asked JKR this in a chat? LOL We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Tue Oct 14 16:19:52 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:19:52 -0000 Subject: Tonks - the deatheater Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82870 Sorry if this has been brought up as a theory earlier. If so I wont take credit for the idea but I haven't read any posts on this so far. In OotP we are introduced to Tonks, the Metamorphmagus. It seemed wrong that she didn't become known later in the books as someone who actually *used* her skills as a Metamorphmagus. So this idea came to me. What if indeed she does use her skills and changes into someone else on a regular basis. Into someone we already know but who is no longer of any real importance in the books - at least not to us, the readers. What if Snape is not the spy after all - it would be a bit too obvious if he were, wouldn't it? So - who else would be able to take the position of Dumbledore's spy and be able to get very close to Voldemort without him even suspecting there's a spy in his midst? Tonks might be the one. But for her to do so she would need to take the place of someone who is no longer around - someone *Voldemort* thinks is STILL around - but isn't. Whatever happened to Barty Ferm Jr after he had his soul sucked out? Do we know? Does Voldemort have any way of knowing what really happened to Barty Ferm Jr at the end of GOF? Who could have told him? What if Barty Ferm Jr still exists - on special occassions. Tonks could Metamorph into Ferm Jr and take his place at the DE-meetings and get information directly from Voldemort to pass on to the Order. Now - how would Tonks know when the DE's are summoned by Voldemort? Snape would tell her - because he knows! I love the idea that Tonks Metamorphmagus'es herself into Barty Ferm Jr and attends the DE meetings. I can't think of anyone - but one - who could have told Voldemort that his loyal supporter Ferm Jr was sucked dry at the end of GOF - and that would be Lucius. But would Fudge really have any reason to have told Lucius about that incident? What do you think? Inge From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 14 17:24:19 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:24:19 -0000 Subject: re ... :Remus is NOT evil, but Arabella is a Squib In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Mrs Figg has a faster way to communicate than owls. She's a member > of the Order. I deduce that it is that secret faster communication > method of the Order. From that, I deduce that one doesn't have to be > magical to use it. Actually that is not true. Mrs. Figg makes it very clear she has no way to contact the order without the aid of other, magical people. She keeps ranting about Mundungus disappearing when she needs him to apparate to Dumbledore and tell him what's going on, and almost as soon as he appears, she sends him on his way there. Once they are at the Dursleys' door, she tells Harry she is going home to wait for instructions. To me this indicates that she has no way to initiate contact, but that wizards can contact her. Salit From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Oct 14 17:28:57 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:28:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82872 > Q1: As Arabella's "cats" do not seem to attract interest by having an > unusual appearance, are they only part-Kneazle as well? Will Harry > now be able to identify Mrs. Figg's cats if he needs to? Any ideas > how the Kneazle's ability to "guide its owner safely home if they are > lost" will come into play in canon? Mrs. Figg and Filch are the only > Squibs we've met (that we know of); does Mrs. Norris fall into the > part-Kneazle category, too? Or is she a transfigured person unable > to change back? (Was that why Filch was taking the Kwik Spell > course?) I personally don't believe either Arabella's cats or Mrs. Norris to be part-kneazles. Although FB doesn't go into detail on the physical appearance of half-kneazles, they must retain some of the physical characteristics of the kneazle. Harry thinks to himself that Crookshanks is odd-looking or ugly or something along those lines when he first seems him in the shop, and Crookshanks' physical appearance is often mentioned in the folowing books. Mrs. Norris and Arabella's cats, on the other hand, are never described in such terms. As Harry is usually in a negative frame of mind when thinking of Mrs. Figg and her cats, one would expect him to make note of any abnormalities concerning the cats ("Harry always had to stay with crazy Mrs. Figg and look at pictures of her ugly cats", or similar). Also, Harry often mentions Mrs. Norris' eyes but little else about her physical appearance seems unusual. Also, in meta-thinking terms, too many kneazles would ruin the plot, in my opinion. Keep in mind that Crookshanks hasn't been revealed as a part-kneazle to Harry and Co., or to the majority of readers. Why turn every cat Harry has ever met into something magical (kneazle or animagus)? Sometimes a cat is just a cat. That said, I don't think it's a coincidence that both Squibs we've been introduced to have cats as their constant companions, and seem to treat them as friends and confidants rather than pets. Perhaps squibs have a special ability to communicate with cats, or animals in general? > Q4: Petunia says that she overheard "that awful boy" telling Lily > about Dementors years ago -- James? Snape? Someone else? What might > the circumstances have been that Petunia was able to overhear this; > were they at Lily and Petunia's home where they lived with their > parents? Why was this person telling Lily about Dementors and > Azkaban? Harry assumes Petunia just happens to remember this scrap of > info from years ago, but how likely is it that Petunia only > knows "scraps" of information about the Wizarding World? I think that "that awful boy" referred to James, simply because she made the comment in a frantic attempt to explain, or rather excuse, her knowledge. She may be much more calculating than I believe, but I don't think she had time to think "Now let's see, when did I first learn about Azkaban? Ah yes, I overheard Wizard Doe speaking to Lily, but if I say Wizard Doe's name then Harry might suspect my true involvement in the wizarding world, and I couldn't possibly lie, but if I just refer to him as that awful boy they'll all assume I'm talking about James...." More likely, she doesn't remember the exact time and place that she learned this, but panicked at the thought that her husband and son might think she had intentional knowledge of anything magic. She quickly threw out a "Just overheard them speaking, entirely unintentional, really" and added a little insult to James just to be safe. (And by safe, I mean oh-please-don't-think- I-actually-care-about-anything-magic-related, not oh-please-don't- suspect-my-deep-cover-spying-for-the-wizarding-world-facade.) However, I don't think she's telling the truth about simply overhearing James and Lily. Not the whole truth, anyway. As you commented in another question, Petunia is constantly being described as nosy. Do you really think she would just sit back and ignore Lily when she was home from Hogwarts? Petunia's comments throughout the books make me think she constantly tried to convince her parents to stop Lily's witch-training and to sever ties with the wizarding world. My guess is she spent every holiday spying on Lily in an attempt to find evidence to support her view, much like she does to her neighbors now. In the process, she may have picked up a considerable bit of knowledge about wizarding culture, probably more than she herself realizes. I think she seemed just as genuinely surprised as the rest of the Dursleys at her own knowledge of Azkaban. And I think this unintentional knowledge may end up being very important in the future. -Corinth From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 14 17:32:17 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:32:17 -0000 Subject: Who will be the Traitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > It's not someone we know well, but how about Colin Creevey? > > He has a major case of hero worship that is very reminicant of Peters > hero worship of James. (Except, of course, that Harry doesn't > encourage it the way James did...) But he does not appear to have the sadistic streak that characterized Wormtail's behaviour in the pensieve incident. > He has memorized Harry's schedule, follows Harry around, and takes > lots of photos. He could easily be passing photos of Harry and the > Hogwarts ground and defences to LV. That was in CoS when he was just 11 years old. We have not heard of him doing it since, have we? He still admires Harry, but on a more mature level (similar to Ginny's transformation). > Also, his brother, and his father (the milkman) could be easy leverage > for LV & the DE's. Why would muggle born Colin and Dennis follow wizards who think that all muggle born wizards are scum and should be destroyed and muggles (their parents) killed for sports? Salit From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Tue Oct 14 00:53:03 2003 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:53:03 -0000 Subject: 3 missing Death Eaters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82874 Hi, I apologize if this has already been discussed. In Chap. 33 of OOTP, LV talks about the Death Eaters that are missing in the graveyard: " And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me for ever ... he will be killed of course ... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re- entered my service." I think it is safe to say that Karkarof is the coward, Snape is the one who left, and Crouch is the faithful one. LV appears pretty definite in saying that Snape left, and that he will be killed. Has anyone speculated as to what Snape could have done to convince LV not to kill and let him back? Mario From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Tue Oct 14 01:25:48 2003 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 01:25:48 -0000 Subject: Speaking of wands... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82875 > Iggy: > > > The only person I could think of that MIGHT have been on the scene > with > > Voldemort would have been Peter... but if he saw Voldemort bite > the big one, > > why would he bother to save the wand either? He wouldn't have > thought that > > his boss was coming back at all. > > > psychobirdgirl(me): > > IF it was Peter, I would think that he kept it thinking he might be > more powerful if he used it. Oiramertip: I do think it was Peter. He was ptobably there the night LV attacked Harry (leading LV's over there), and got scared when he saw his master get squashed, and flew. He did not have the courage to kill Harry himself through stragulation or whatever. He saved LV's wand and I guess he used it to escape from Sirius. The books do say that Peter was an agile wizard, and they said that the wizard that created that explosion (accusing Sisiur of doing it...) had to be pretty powerful. I believe Peter used LV's wand to escape. Make sense? From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Oct 13 14:33:32 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:33:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not Killer!Lupin - dont use presuppositions to "prove" your case References: Message-ID: <000f01c39196$fbc4b380$f3e379a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82876 > Iggy McSnurd > ================== > When Bellatrix was talking to Voldemort after the main > battle ("But Master, you should know..." or something > like that...) and was cut off, about a paragraph later, > she told Voldemort "But he's here..." (paraphrasing) > and he ignored her. All details indicate that she was > trying to tell him that Dumbledore was downstairs. > > Samnanya > ================== > "All details"? Exactly what details are you referring to? > Every single detail? Then why didnt JKR just have Bellatrix > say "Forget Potter! Dumbledore is downstairs!" --and warn > her master of the danger? Iggy here: "Master, I am sorry, I knew not, I was fighting the Animagis Black!" sobbed Bellatrix, flinging herselfdown at Voldemort's feet as he paced slowly nearer. "Master, you should know----" "Be quiet, Bella." said Voldemort dangerously. "I shall deal with you in a moment. Do you think I have entered the Ministry of Magic to hear your sniveling apologies?" "But master -- he is here-- he is below --" Voldemort paid no attention. "I have nothing more to say to you, Potter," he said quietly. "You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA!" Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist. His mind was blank, his wand pointing uselessly at the floor. But the headless golden statue of the wizard in the fountain had sprung between Harry and Voldemort. The spell merely glanced off its chest as the statue flung out its arms, protecting Harry. "What --?" said Voldemort, starting around. And then he breathed, "Dumbledore!" (OotP, ch 35, p812-813, US ed.) That scene (not to mention the title of the chapter itself, "The Only One He Ever Feared") strongly suggests (if not actually shows with 99% certanty... nothing is 100% certain), that Bellatrix was interrupted while trying to let Voldemort know that Dumbledore was downstairs. I attempted to paraphrase last time because I don't tough type and it's a pain to have to look at the book, type out half a line, look at the bookm type half a line... etc. > Samnanya > ================== > Instead of these direct quotes, JKR has skillfully split > Bella's thoughts so that there can be at least some doubt > in the reader's mind about what was supposedly meant to be > said. That is what creates the tension and the page turning > of a good story. The reader is EXPECTED to assume that Bella > is trying to warn LV that Dumbledore is below -- but that > does not have to be the case! And tis uncertainty is also > what fuels the speculations and theories on websites like > this. If it was clear that Bellatrix killed Sirius, Snape > is evil, Harry can't die, and Ginny ends up with the Giant > Squid, {or whatever other beliefs we each hold so strongly} > then there would never be that much excitement generated > about events in the Potterverse. It would be like Hermione > reading the Sunday Prophet after the fact > in the last chapter .... > Iggy: I understand that and agree that JKR does a good job at lending tension and more interest to her stories by leaving taunting little ideas around. I also agree that the slight sense of doubt in what your reading as fact is a great way to write. (It's one of the reasons I love the movie "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory." Gene Wilder is quoted as saying that he refused to do the movie unless they let him put in that first scene of him limping along with tha cane and then going into an acrobatic roll when he loses it. It was so that he could establish that you never know, for the rest of the movie, whether ot not Wonka was lying or not.) All I'm trying to point out is that, while there MAY be mysteries hidden in many of what's said or done in the books... as Freud said: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Some things can also probably be taken at face value. > > Iggy McSnurd > =============== > I think what's happening sometimes is that sometimes people > look at individual quotes on occasion (and I'm guilty of > this on occasion as well)and narrow their focus onto that > as an indicator of something without looking at all the > circumstances and other actions or dialogue that > surrounds the quote. > > Samnanya > ================== > I can say that I am not a generic "people" who "narrow their > focus onto that without looking at all the circumstances" --- > that would be damning me and not my argument (and saying > that you are guilty of it too does not mitigate > your statement). Iggy: Well, for one, I wasn't directing the statement at anyone in particular, even though the reply was to a given e-mail. I was taking the time to comment on a lot of the statements I have seen that I felt warrant that particular comment. And adding in the fact that I am also guilty of the same thing sometimes (and have been in this list, even) was to indicate that I wasn't flaming or attacking anyone. I was simply making an observation. > > I have read the sections that I quoted many many times > and am approaching what JKR wrote from an assumption > (killer!Lupin) that is just as valid as (Good!Lupin) -- > until proven otherwise. My first reaction to Evil!Lupin > was about the same as my reaction to a Harry/Draco ship. > . but the arguments i read altered my perceptions and at > least opened the POSSIBILITY that Evil!Lupin was valid. > I would not fling book 7 into the trash if Evil!Lupin was > a key plotpoint. I would not necesarily be happy but I > would feel that the seeds had been planted to support > Evil!Lupin. They dont have to sprout into devils snare > but at least they were cleverly planted. Iggy: Oh, I agree that everything is possible unless stated in cold hard stone from the author that something is a fact. It would make for a very boring read if everything were to be laid out in black and white. And I still agree that the Evil!Lupin is a possibility. I just don't believe it's a very viable one. If you recall, when this first started out, I had a little fun arguing FOR that case. But I also decided to take up the fun challenge of arguing my viewpoint, that the Evil!Lupin isn't something I see as likely. Many people have umped in to support the point that the Evil!/Killer!Lupin is correct. Well, to remain interesting, the discussion needs a dissenting opinion (or number of opinions) that's approached in the same, detailed manner as the originally stated view. > Samnanya > ================== > However, when "people" use presuppositions to support > their arguments and therefore conclude that their views > are correct, they are not using logic to refute an argument, > they are using emotion and prejudicial assumptions. What > you say that "sometimes happens" has not happened in my > analysis. I invite you to rip my arguments apart! Show me > canon that refutes Evil!Lupin or causes me to say "Oops!" > I am more than happy to admit to errors of fact or logic > or bad recollection, and have done so previously on this > site. I also dont WANT to believe Evil!Lupin, nor do I HAVE > to believe it, but the arguments made by pippin, myself > and others are at least in the realm of possibility and > cannot easily be discounted {until disproved in canon}. > Iggy: Well, for point one, I'll lead you to some of my earlier statements in this letter that anything is possible unless the author says it's not. For point two, I'll direct you to my comments in this letter about that SOME of the arguments I've seen have conformed to my observations about narrowed focus. (I said "some".. not "all.") I am not arguing that my view is the only one, nor am I stating that I have proven it to be true without a doubt. Only once have I ever said that a case was closed, so far as my view was concerned... and that was about how Petunia knew about the Dementors. If I am ever proven wrong on any conclusions I have reached, then so be it... and in some cases, I would be delighted. It'll just let me know what I need to work on in my analytical reasoning and in the hunches I get. Personally, one of the reasons I enjoy being on this list is because I love a good debate. *grin* So I encourage people to debate with me and with other people. > > samnanya > who does not believe in Harry's feelings towards centaurs..... Iggy: Which feelings would those be? > Samnanya > ================== > keep on posting Iggy! This is not personal...... > Don't worry. The only way I'd take something like this personally is if you said something to the effect of "Yer a jerk and a moron, Iggy." Just as I don't take many things personally, I expect that others don't take things I say personally as well, especially when I make general statements. (If I call YOU a jerk or a moron specifically, THEN you can take it personally. *grin*) I've worked in customer service on and off for over 15 years... when you work in jobs like that, you get a thicker skin than most other jobs. (In fact, the first bit of advice I give anyone coming into a CS related job is "Never take anything personally, and don't take your frustrations home with you.") Keep the debates raging! *grin* Iggy McSnurd the Prankster "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE (but I'm stuck here.)" -- ABS FIRECAT From cwood at tattersallpub.com Tue Oct 14 15:43:54 2003 From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:43:54 -0000 Subject: Can JKR write dialogue? Her use of "Swifities" says "No." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82877 Annemehr: > Other than the punctuation, is this an example of poor writing? I > don't think so. It seems to me either voice, pain or anger, would be > appropriate and therefore JKR does need to specify in some way which > one Harry uses, and I don't see how she could do that just by changing > the actual words Harry speaks. Actually, I think this is an example of poor editing. JKR has such superstar status that her editors probably quiver in fear at the thought of changing one solitary comma. Most bestselling authors with long track records are scarcely proofread, much less seriously edited, before going straight to galleys. I can give you plenty of examples, from John Grisham to Patricia Cornwell to Tom Clancy and many others, of authors whose books were rushed to press without a thorough proofread for spelling, grammar and punctuation, much less a copyedit for continuity and accuracy. On the other hand, the whimiscal use of adverbs is a JKR style choice that I find rather charming. Ms. Tattersall From topfor at aol.com Tue Oct 14 17:44:54 2003 From: topfor at aol.com (smtopliff) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:44:54 -0000 Subject: Lily, Petunia, Squibs, Muggles, et. al In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katiecannon2000" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > Now me: > > Yes, I've heard this before, but how do you suppose Petunia new > > Snape? James hated him, so I don't think he would have had him > over > > to meet the girlfriend's family. And even if Lily was friendly > with > > Snape would he, who clearly hates mudbloods, have taken time to > meet > > her muggle family? > > I'm interested in the rest of your theory. > > Mandy > > Just some vague gut feeling that Petunia is more than she lets on vis > a vis the wizarding world. I think my theory is more along the lines > of "this is one of those interrupted statements that we are assuming > something and we are assuming incorrectly." Maybe a little less "It > was Snape." Why is everyone assuming "her" is Lily? Inasmuch as it strongly appears it may not be James that Petunia is referring, it is also incomplete to analyze the comment and assume Lily is the female in question. smt- From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 14 17:53:14 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:53:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) References: <1066092066.10347.96049.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002101c3927c$106413e0$dde76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 82879 Donna wrote: > Does anyone else find it interesting that the only two squibs we've > met may both have part Kneazles as pets? I say "may" because Mrs. > Norris is not confirmed as a Kneazle but, like Kneazy's posted, I > think she is. Perhaps squibs are encouraged to form a relationship > with them because if the part Kneazle takes a liking to them and > agrees to be their pet, a squib is offered some protection from Dark > Wizards? To quote from Fantastic Beasts: "The Kneazle has an uncanny > ability to detect unsavory or suspicious characters..." A squib I can't help feeling that the jury's still out on Mrs Norris, Argus Filch is high on my list of unsavoury characters! > Probably things he's overheard on the playgrounds: that he's dumb, > he's a spoilt mama's "ickle Duddums." The deep inner voice that > tells him he's feared as a bully but not respected, that he's never > developed the social skills to get along with people. He's never had > any real friends, and his parents are the only two people who will > ever think well of him. Yes, and add to that the fact that Dudley has now got to an age where his dignity and autonomy are becoming very important to him. Maybe being pilloried for being fat was another source of shame to him. He's trying hard to overcome all of this by using his fists to force others to show him respect, but as Harry proves very quickly, it's all too easy to cow him with the threat of being "shown up" as a mummy's boy. Actually, Dudley probably isn't _that_ fond of his parents either, deep down. Very easy for any self-respecting Dementor to reduce him to a jelly... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 14 17:58:57 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:58:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups References: <1066092066.10347.96049.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002401c3927c$ddc23c40$dde76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 82880 Mario created a poll : > > Book 7 Body-Count Poll (created by Mario > Pitre): Whom do you believe is likely to > be dead by the end of Book 7? (Choose as > many as you like.) There wasn't an option for "someone else"! But I would vote very strongly for Arabella Figg to cark it, by the end of book 6 even if not book 7. Hint 1 - she's on the spot in Little Whinging keeping an eye on Harry Hint 2 - we're told that a squib is going to be shown doing magic in (and I may be misquoting here) "desperate circumstances" in a later volume My scenario (possibly starting off book 6) is that there will be some sort of incident in which Figgy will die defending Harry, the little bit of magic that gets drawn out of her won't be enough to save her (but might be enough to raise the alarm). Cheers Ffred (who also sees a vulture on Percy's shoulder ready for the next volume...) O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 18:11:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:11:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Army = House Elves In-Reply-To: <3F8744C9.302@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > > > > > > Dumbledore's Army will turn out to be a loyal group of Hogwart's > > house elves. I suspect they may receive some sort of "uniform" > > (ie:clothes!) in recognition of their new status as (free) (ie: > > they are "asked" to stay/work/be paid vs. "enslavement"). > > > Jazmyn replies: > > One problem with this. The elves don't WANT to be freed. ...edited... > > Jazmyn bboy_mn: First point; I do think elves will rally to fight against Voldemort, and further suspect they may set up a network of Elf spies. Second point regarding Elf freedom; elves do, in a sense, want freedom, but not freedom from service. They want and deserve freedom from oppression. House Elves and/or Brownies exist in mythology with one and only one purpose to serve those that they choose to serve, and to be of service is the pinnacle of house elf's existance. House elves enter into their service willingly, and they do so with a sense of honor, commitment, and benevolence that has centuries of tradition and history. In doing so they ask nothing in return but the opportunity to serve. Two key aspects of house elf service; they volunarily choose to serve and while they ask nothing in return, there is a reasonable expectation that the wizards they serve will enter into the agreement with the same level of honor, commitment, and benevolence that the elves do. However, while the elf is bound by his honor to live up to his commitment, sadly wizards do not enter with the same sense of honor. Instead, wizards take advantage of the elf's good faith and exploit it to their advantage. In the face of the wizard's less than honorable actions, an elf is faced with betraying his commitment, betraying his ancestors, betraying his honor, and betraying the very essense of his existance, or staying with a less than honorable wizard. Their deep sense of loyalty and honor, and centuries of conditioning by wizards will not allow them to turn away for this commitment. What elves want, although they don't know it in an articulate way yet, and what Hermione should be working toward, is not freeing the elves from service, but getting the wizard world to recognize elves as sentient beings with the same rights, priviledges, and protections under the law that wizards have. She should fight for laws that protect elves from abuse and mistreatment, and laws that guarantee a degree of commitment and loyalty from wizards. Commitments and loyalies in the form of care in their old age, providing for the basic life necessities of elves, and treating elves with dignity and a sense of gratitude. Of course, that's just my opinion. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 18:25:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:25:09 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > > T... why couldn't Sirius have just gone to Ollivander's and bought > > a new one? ...edited... > > > > Usually there is a gaping hole in my HP logic, which quickly gets > > gently pointed out by someone else on this list. I'm sure you all > > will let me know if I'm wrong yet again. ;-) > > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan > Alshain: > > Sirius didn't buy the Firebolt in person, but by Owl Order, .... I > don't know if the same thing is possible when buying wands, it seems > a more personal business. > > Alshain Bboy_mn: First to the question, why didn't Sirius just go into Ollivander's and buy a new wand? Because he was the most infamous, notorious, and fear prisoner to ever escape from Azkaban, and the most heavily hunted by the Ministy Aurors. So how did he get a wand? I'm guessing the prisoner's personal affects are turned over to the prisoner's family, to a friend or representative of the prisoner. So that would mean his wand was stashed at his mother's house, or with, more than likely, Lupin or Dumbledore. Alternately, the prisoner's personal affects are held in a 'property' room by the Ministry, and our good friend Kingsly Shacklebolt smuggled it out at Dumbledore's request. Just a thought. bboy_mn From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Oct 14 18:29:14 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:29:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's Visions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82883 I'm not even sure how to ask this question, so I hope you'll bear with me while I stumble along. I don't quite "get" the premise behind OOP. (I know, I know. . . GASP?!?!) Okay. Harry is having dreams about long corridors and locked doors -- which we find out are located in the Department of Mysteries. He started having these dreams even before Mr. Weasley had taken him to the Ministry for his hearing in August, so they are true visions: OOP, ch. 6, page 118, American Edition: "Despite the fact that he was still sleeping badly, still having dreams about corridors and locked doors that made his scar prickle..." (Of course, I have a problem with the description of him STILL having those dreams as this was the very first mention of him dreaming about long corridors and locked doors. Prior to this mention, the only references to his dreams were about the graveyard and Cedric and one mention about Hagrid teaching them about weapons that were creatures with cannons for heads. No mention of corridors. Yet, JKR says he was STILL having dreams about them. I'll chalk that up to an editing oversight or error.) But anyway. So. Later in the story we find out that what is actually happening is that Harry is seeing inside Voldemort's mind and thoughts and that it is Voldemort who is thinking about the long corridors and locked doors. Ah ha. Okay then. Now we're getting somewhere. Meanwhile, Harry has a vision about Mr. Weasley being attacked, witnessed as though he himself were the big snake and we find that Voldemort had been possessing the snake. So, when Harry entered Voldemort's mind that night, he also entered the snake. Fine. Makes complete sense so far. Voldemort was actually there and the things Harry "saw" were actually happening to Voldemort. Then, page by page, chapter by chapter, Harry has visions of getting further and further along -- he sees a door open. . . next vision he gets a little further still and goes through a room with mechanical clicking sounds. . . next he enters the Prophecy Room and so on, all the while sharing Voldemort's overwhelmingly desperate desire to reach "something" he wants. But, Voldemort wasn't actually physically doing those things, as he had been with the snake attack. How was Voldemort seeing those things in the Department of Mysteries so accurately, then? Some sort of physical/mental projection abilities we have yet to see in the WW? Yes, Rookwood could have described the Department of Mysteries and the Prophecy Room to Voldemort in enough detail that Voldemort could envision them. However, why would Voldemort then envision himself painstakingly walking the corridors and opening every door? Why not skip all that picky little detail stuff and get right to seeing himself lifting the Prophecy off the shelf? It wasn't until I had read OOP for the second or third time that I realized that, unlike the snake vision of the attack on Mr. Weasley, which was something that actually took place, all the other visions Harry had of Voldemort's activities weren't of Voldemort's actual physical activities at all but merely of Voldemort's mental activities. He wasn't doing any of the stuff Harry saw -- he was just thinking about it. Oh. Cough. Okay. Then, it gets more confusing. When Harry wakes up, Voldemort is ripped away from his fantasy thoughts. Huh? Harry, in essence has CONTROL over Voldemort's mind? If it truly is Voldemort's mind Harry is seeing, then the fact that Harry woke up shouldn't have any effect at all other than to sever the vision. There should be no other emotion attached to it. Yet, Harry feels Voldemort's towering frustration and obsession to get to the orb. So. All this time I had been thinking that Voldemort, in some form, physical or otherwise, had been roaming the halls of the Department of Mysteries, trying to get to the orb, thwarted only by Harry's sleeping patterns, (which made no sense to me in any way whatsoever). The posting of the guard by the Order of the Phoenix had been meant to prevent this actual physical intrusion by Voldemort; however, it failed. After Mr. Weasley is attacked, no further mention is made of "guard" duty. Again, I assumed that the discontinuation of posting guards was do to the fact that, thanks to Harry's visions, they all realized that Voldemort had apparently shown this form of protection to be completely ineffective against him. He had still gotten into the Department of Mysteries and was looking around to his heart's content. But had he? Nope. He was only there mentally. And, he was only there mentally if Harry stayed asleep long enough for him to have a look around. Total confusion. Is this just sloppy writing (though it pains me to say so) or is there some genius at work here that I am not seeing? Thanks for the help, Bohcoo From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 14 19:02:07 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:02:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's Visions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > OOP, ch. 6, page 118, American Edition: > "Despite the fact that he was still sleeping badly, still having > dreams about corridors and locked doors that made his scar prickle..." > > > (Of course, I have a problem with the description of him STILL having > those dreams as this was the very first mention of him dreaming about > long corridors and locked doors. Prior to this mention, the only > references to his dreams were about the graveyard and Cedric and one > mention about Hagrid teaching them about weapons that were creatures > with cannons for heads. No mention of corridors. I don't have the book handy but I clearly remember a passage from the first chapter of OoP that went something like this (paraphrased) [he was sleeping badly because] "even when he was not dreaming about Cedric or the graveyard, he was dreaming about long corridors and locked doors" and then the text goes on to say that Harry assumed it was a mark of his feeling trapped and uninformed. So the use of the word STILL in chapter 6 is perfectly valid. > Then, page by page, chapter by chapter, Harry has visions of getting > further and further along -- he sees a door open. . . next vision he > gets a little further still and goes through a room with mechanical > clicking sounds. . . next he enters the Prophecy Room and so on, [deleted] > But, Voldemort wasn't actually physically doing those things, as he > had been with the snake attack. How was Voldemort seeing those things > in the Department of Mysteries so accurately, then? After the snake attack on Mr. Weasley, Voldemort became aware of Harry sharing his thoughts. He also deduces that he can induce visions inside Harry's mind. After his talk with Rookwood he learned that the only people who can remove the prophecy from the shelf are Harry and himself. So from then on, Voldemort simply induces the visions into Harry's mind to tempt him to go there and get the prophecy for him. Remember that Voldemort thinks that Harry knows that a prophecy exists (based on what the DE's said during the fight in the DoM) and believes that by showing Harry how to get it, he could rely on his natural curiosity to go and get it. When that does not work, he finally produces the image of Sirius being tortured there to get Harry to the DoM. As for how he knows what is in there - he is a legilimens, so he can use Rookwood's memories from his time there to learn exactly what it looks like in there, and then transfer these visions into Harry's dreams. The occlumency lessons were started to prevent that. > When Harry wakes up, Voldemort is ripped away from his fantasy > thoughts. Huh? Harry, in essence has CONTROL over Voldemort's mind? Nope. If he is sharing Voldemort's dreams, he (Harry) is ripped out of the dream. If these are Voldemort's induced dreams, he simply wakes up. Salit From dwoodward at towson.edu Tue Oct 14 19:02:46 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Woodward, Deirdre) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:02:46 -0400 Subject: Lupin the Mutant Half Breed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82885 Lupin is a half-breed in the sense that he's part-human, part-werewolf. I don't think we need to take the word "breed" literally when speaking about fictional creatures. But Lupin's a mutant, really. He mutated from wholly human to half and half (or more accurately, 3/4 - 1/4). But mutant smacks of science fiction, doesn't it? Half-breed works as far as I'm concerned. Deirdre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Oct 14 19:19:16 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:19:16 -0000 Subject: How Did McGonagall know? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82886 OOP, ch. 11, page 214: "'I'll tell you what it means,' said Hermoine through gritted teeth. 'It means the Ministry's interfering at Hogwarts.' "There was a great clattering and banging all around them; Dumbledore had obviously just dismissed the school because everyone was standing up ready to leave the hall." OOP, ch. 12, page 249, Professor McGonagall speaking: "'Didn't you listen to Dolores Umbridge's speech at the start-of-term feast, Potter?' "'Yeah,' said Harry. 'Yeah. . . she said . . . progress will be prohibited or. . . well, it meant that...that the Ministry of Magic is trying to interfere at Hogwarts.' "Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, then sniffed, walked around her desk, and held open the door for him. "'Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermoine Granger at any rate,' she said, pointing him out of her office. When Hermoine made that comment to Harry, it was during the continuation of the speech Dumbledore had been making when interrupted by Umbridge. All the teachers where still sitting at the top table, listening to Dumbledore complete his welcome to the students. There is no way on earth she could have overheard Hermoine's quiet statements to Harry at the Griffendor table. So. How did she know what Hermoine said to Harry? Curiously, Bohcoo From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Tue Oct 14 19:29:31 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:29:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's Visions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82887 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: >>snip<< > Okay. Harry is having dreams about long corridors and locked doors - - > which we find out are located in the Department of Mysteries. He > started having these dreams even before Mr. Weasley had taken him to > the Ministry for his hearing in August, so they are true visions: > > > OOP, ch. 6, page 118, American Edition: > "Despite the fact that he was still sleeping badly, still having > dreams about corridors and locked doors that made his scar prickle..." > > > (Of course, I have a problem with the description of him STILL having > those dreams as this was the very first mention of him dreaming about > long corridors and locked doors. Prior to this mention, the only > references to his dreams were about the graveyard and Cedric and one > mention about Hagrid teaching them about weapons that were creatures > with cannons for heads. No mention of corridors. Yet, JKR says he was > STILL having dreams about them. I'll chalk that up to an editing > oversight or error.) >>snip, snip, snip<< Hello Bohcoo Just to clarify, in US ED OOP CHP 1 pg 9 is the first mention of the "corridor" dreams. "...when he escaped nightmares about Cedric he had unsettling dreams about long corridors, all finishing in dead ends and locked doors, ..." Lliannanshe From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue Oct 14 19:33:44 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:33:44 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape: evil or good In-Reply-To: <1d2.1268ba5a.2cbb4129@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031015082950.00a46b40@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82888 Yes, I agree with that. I have not seen the interviews either. But keeping an eye on a character doesn't mean that he is going to do something really evil, to me it just sounds like he will do something unexpected or a bit out of character to Harry, seeing as Harry has him painted black. Tanya At 19:43 12/10/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Joy writes > >I'll admit to not having read everything that JKR has said about Snape. But >I always got the impression that she was mainly emphasizing that he was not >nice, and was never going to be? But I don't translate that as him turning >evil. I recall an interview where she said to "Keep our eye on him" or >something >to that effect, but I remember not getting the impression necessarily that he >was going to turn out evil. From chrissilein at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 19:35:59 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:35:59 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82889 Hi (From "Wizardnews") In regards to book 6, he only had one thing to share. -Word around work this week, is that JK publicly said "Harry sustains a minimal but lasting injury in this book." It is also reported to be roughly just under the length of GoF and will most likely be done by early January. (The first draft.). Yours Chrissi From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 19:42:09 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Did McGonagall know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031014194209.38980.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82890 --- bohcoo wrote: > OOP, ch. 12, page 249, Professor McGonagall > speaking: > "'Didn't you listen to Dolores Umbridge's speech at > the start-of-term > feast, Potter?' > "'Yeah,' said Harry. 'Yeah. . . she said . . . > progress will be > prohibited or. . . well, it meant that...that the > Ministry of Magic > is trying to interfere at Hogwarts.' > > "Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, > then sniffed, > walked around her desk, and held open the door for > him. > > "'Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermoine Granger at > any rate,' she > said, pointing him out of her office. > > > When Hermoine made that comment to Harry, it was > during the > continuation of the speech Dumbledore had been > making when > interrupted by Umbridge. All the teachers where > still sitting at the > top table, listening to Dumbledore complete his > welcome to the > students. There is no way on earth she could have > overheard > Hermoine's quiet statements to Harry at the > Griffendor table. > > So. How did she know what Hermoine said to Harry? > > Curiously, > Bohcoo I just chalked it up to McGonagall's general knowledge of Harry and Hermione's characters. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Oct 14 19:56:04 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:56:04 -0000 Subject: Harry's Visions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: Salit wrote in post #82884: > I don't have the book handy but I clearly remember a passage from >the first chapter of OoP that went something like this (paraphrased) >[he was sleeping badly because] "even when he was not dreaming about >Cedric or the graveyard, he was dreaming about long corridors and >locked doors" and then the text goes on to say that Harry assumed >it was a mark of his feeling trapped and uninformed. > So the use of the word STILL in chapter 6 is perfectly valid. Bohcoo reponds: Yep, yep. Right you are. Big as life, on page 9: "In the meantime, he had nothing to look forward to but another restless, disturbed night, because even when he escaped nightmares about Cedric he had unsettling dreams about long dark corridors, all finishing in dead ends and locked doors, which he supposed had something to do with the trapped feeling he had when he was awake." (And, wow, Salit -- what a memory you have! I'm quite impressed.) Salit, again in post #82884: > After the snake attack on Mr. Weasley, Voldemort became aware of > Harry sharing his thoughts. He also deduces that he can induce > visions inside Harry's mind. > So from then on, Voldemort simply induces the visions into Harry's > mind to tempt him to go there and get the prophecy for him. >Remember that Voldemort thinks that Harry knows that a prophecy >exists (based on what the DE's said during the fight in the DoM) and >believes that by showing Harry how to get it, he could rely on his >natural curiosity to go and get it. When that does not work, he >finally produces the image of Sirius being tortured there to get >Harry to the DoM. > As for how he knows what is in there - he is a legilimens, so he >can use Rookwood's memories from his time there to learn exactly >what it looks like in there, and then transfer these visions into >Harry's dreams. The occlumency lessons were started to prevent that. >If these are Voldemort's induced dreams, he simply wakes up. Bohcoo responds: Oh-h-h-h-h-h. NOW I get it. Thankyouthankyouthankyou! (Duh. . .and I feel kind of dumb right now... But, I'd rather feel a little dim now than to miss something and really get lost later on.) Sheepish grins, Bohcoo P.S. Please read Salit's full excellent post. Very good --Snipped for response purposes. From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Oct 14 20:01:31 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:01:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's Visions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: > Hello Bohcoo > > Just to clarify, in US ED OOP CHP 1 pg 9 is the first mention of > the "corridor" dreams. > > "...when he escaped nightmares about Cedric he had unsettling dreams > about long corridors, all finishing in dead ends and locked > doors, ..." > > Lliannanshe Bohcoo replies: Thank you, Lliannanshe! Good eye -- check out #82884 too, from Salit.. Boy, don't you just hate when that happens? I have read OOP two or three times already and each time I see something I missed during the previous reads. I totally missed that passage. Too eager to see what was coming next, I suppose! Thanks again! Bohcoo From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Oct 14 20:06:35 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:06:35 -0000 Subject: How Did McGonagall know? In-Reply-To: <20031014194209.38980.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82893 > --- bohcoo wrote: > > OOP, ch. 12, page 249, Professor McGonagall > > speaking: > > "'Didn't you listen to Dolores Umbridge's speech at > > the start-of-term > > feast, Potter?' > > "'Yeah,' said Harry. 'Yeah. . . she said . . . > > progress will be > > prohibited or. . . well, it meant that...that the > > Ministry of Magic > > is trying to interfere at Hogwarts.' > > > > "Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, > > then sniffed, > > walked around her desk, and held open the door for > > him. > > > > "'Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermoine Granger at > > any rate,' she > > said, pointing him out of her office. > Rebecca said: > I just chalked it up to McGonagall's general knowledge > of Harry and Hermione's characters. Jen: I also think McGonagall and Hermione have a mentoring relationship that's progressed throughout the series. Even though we don't see it often, I suspect they talk quite a bit. They've had a connection since the very first class in SS/PS when "By the end of the lesson, only Hermione Granger had made any difference to her match; Professor McGonagall showed the class how it had gone all silver and pointy and gave Hermione a rare smile" (SS p. 134). Then Mcgonagall arranges for the time turner for Hermie in POA and Hermione tells McGonagall about the Firebolt. I wouldn't be surprised if Hermione took her concerns about Umbridge to McGonagall at some point after the feast, and McGonagall heard Hermione's words coming out of Harry's mouth. I would be very interested to find out more about their connection, and just how much Hermione talks about with McGonagall. We're given information about the mentoring relationships Harry engages in (i.e., Lupin, Sirius, Dumbledore) but know very little about the Hermione/McGonagall connection--they could be a powerful team!! From patnkatng at cox.net Tue Oct 14 20:14:00 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:14:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin, the flower (Was: Pippin, you've done it again!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" wrote: > > > Lupin: A poisonous purple flower. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Originally a white flower used for cattle feed, and named "lupin" > because its throat was thought to look like a wolf's head. What is > the throat of a flower? Said to be the flower thrown at people > during the Floralia (a flower festival said to be dedicated to > Venus) because one of Venus's titles was The Wolf, and one of the > nicknames of the red light district was The Wolf Den. Katrina's Reply: A literal etymology of the plant name can be found at: http://www.etymonline.com/l4etym.htm "lupine - 1660, from Fr. lupine "wolflike," from L. lupinus "of the wolf," from lupus "wolf." The plant name is 14c., from L. lupinus; but the reason for association with the animal is unclear" Lupin, a member of the pea family, has a long and interesting history. Actually, both Iggy and Catlady are correct. The variety of lupin used for fodder, White Lupin, has been cultivated since the time of the Ancient Egyptians. (Another tie to Egypt? Hmmmm.) The Romans also cultivated White Lupin for food. Plants of this genus were once thought to rob the soil of nutrients because they tend to grow in poor soils. We now know that Lupines can occur on the poorest of soils because they collect atmospheric nitrogen and actually make the soil richer in nutrients. Culpepper (Of Culpepper's Herbal) claims that Lupin is governed by Mars in Ares and 'The seeds, somewhat bitter in taste, opening and cleansing, good to destroy worms. Outwardly they are used against deformities of the skin, scabby ulcers, scald heads, and other cutaneous distempers.' Mars. . . Interesting. Lupin is still used today as a cover and fodder crop. Especially for sheep. Lupinosis, an acute atrophy of the liver in domestic animals (such as sheep) has not been linked to any specific variety of lupin. It is believed now that a specific fungus is the cause of the poisoning. To bring this back to the Potterverse, I noticed that the German name for Lupin is Wolfsbohne. The literal translation is "Wolf bean." A couple of very nice photos of the White Lupin can be found at http://www.rootgrafix.com/herbalnexus/p_lupine.htm Katrina Who wishes all her herbal books weren't packed in boxes in the garage. . . From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Oct 14 20:27:32 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:27:32 -0000 Subject: Mentoring at Hogwarts, WAS: Re: How Did McGonagall know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen replied, in post #82893: > I also think McGonagall and Hermione have a mentoring relationship > that's progressed throughout the series. Even though we don't see it > often, I suspect they talk quite a bit. > > They've had a connection since the very first class in SS/PS when "By > the end of the lesson, only Hermione Granger had made any difference > to her match; Professor McGonagall showed the class how it had gone > all silver and pointy and gave Hermione a rare smile" (SS p. 134). > > Then Mcgonagall arranges for the time turner for Hermie in POA and > Hermione tells McGonagall about the Firebolt. I wouldn't be surprised > if Hermione took her concerns about Umbridge to McGonagall at some > point after the feast, and McGonagall heard Hermione's words coming > out of Harry's mouth. > > I would be very interested to find out more about their connection, > and just how much Hermione talks about with McGonagall. We're given > information about the mentoring relationships Harry engages in (i.e., > Lupin, Sirius, Dumbledore) but know very little about the > Hermione/McGonagall connection--they could be a powerful team!! Bohcoo adds: What a splendid, thought-provoking post, Jen. There DOES seem to be a rather close and unique connection between McGonagall and Hermoine, which is happening "off-page." When you said that McGonagall "heard Hermoine's words coming out of Harry's mouth," that implies quite a personal knowledge by McGonagall of Hermoine. I agree with you -- it sounds like a mentoring arrangement moreso than a winkwink relationship. I never really thought about the other students receiving special, extra lessons from their professors. Harry received Patronus lessons from Lupin. . . Could Hermoine be learning to become an animagus from McGonagall? We've also heard about Neville getting together with Prof. Sprout regarding his mimblus plant. Who else do we think might be getting extra, mentoring-type instruction? Thanks, Jen, for the catalyst on this! Bohcoo From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 14 20:28:51 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:28:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's Visions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > (Duh. . .and I feel kind of dumb right now... But, I'd rather feel a > little dim now than to miss something and really get lost later > on.) Agreed! > P.S. Please read Salit's full excellent post. Very good --Snipped for > response purposes. Thanks for the complements!!! Salit From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Oct 14 20:51:45 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:51:45 -0000 Subject: Who Will Betray/ Be Traitor/ Be the New SNEAK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82897 These threads have been enthralling me for a couple of days now. All the arguments are so convincing that, yep, it has to be Lupin who will stab/bite everyone in the back. Then, someone else convinces me that, nope, couldn't possibly be Lupin -- but, boy, keep your eye on Ron Weasley. Then, Mrs. Figg simply cannot be trusted and just you watch, she is going to accidently off someone in a last-ditch spurt of magical ability. (Colonel Mustard in the Conservatory with a Lead Pipe. . .) Has anyone seen the movie, "Clue: The Movie?" Extremely funny. Huge smiles, Bohcoo From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Oct 14 21:02:21 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:02:21 -0000 Subject: 3 missing Death Eaters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiramertip" wrote: Mario wrote, in post #82874: > Has anyone speculated as to what Snape could have done to convince > LV not to kill and let him back? > > Mario Bohcoo responds: Why, yes, Mario, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to mention my theory once again: I don't think LV necessarily "let" Snape back. I think Snape is eavesdropping on Death Eater meetings by hanging upside down from a rafter or tree somewhere. I think he is the one LV refers to as having left his service forever, the one who will "of course" be killed. LV will have to catch him first. I firmly believe that Snape can transform into a bat. Just my opinion, Bohcoo From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 14 14:08:16 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:08:16 -0000 Subject: Can JKR write dialogue? Her use of "Swifities" says "No." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82899 David wrote: > > When I read OOP aloud to my son I really noticed this habit. > > On many, many occasions I interpreted the speech, came to the > > adverb, and had to go back and re-read in a different tone of > > voice. I didn't like it at the time. > > > > I think it's an interesting question whether this adds to or > > detracts from the story. JKR kept overriding my interpretation, > > but maybe there's a point to that. I am not sufficiently good > > or experienced a writer to know if she could have written the > > dialogue slightly differently to ensure that the appropriate > > tone of voice would come out of the printed words. > > Haggridd wrote: > > You pose the crucial question: Is JKR deficient in her use of > dialogue, or is your ear for her dialogue defective? I would be > extremely interested if you would cite a number of examples, > either onlist or offlist. I would like to see whether I interpret > these exchanges differently from JKR, as demonstrated by her > choice of adverb. OMGoodness, are you actually suggesting her writing might be flawed? The excessive use of adverbs and overly dramatic verbs throughout Phoenix is nothing more than a crutch which prevents Rowling from establishing a true voice for her characters or really visualising many scenes. If it is intentional, it is still done to no or poor effect. Owls are always swooping. People are always speaking in over exaggerated tones. It's all very silly, really. While the constant use of 'said' was useful for weaker readers in Azkaban, it is unecessary for Phoenix which is aimed at an older reader. Presumably one that can remember who is speaking to whom and the conventions of dialouge. Not to even mention the fact that Azkaban is far more restrained. Phoenix is nothing more than streaming excess. Rowling can write dialouge, she simply chose to do it poorly in Phoenix. She' a much better writer than this book shows. I suspect that it isn't any sort of resistance on her part but rather an over-eagerness n part of her publishers. Or perhaps we are simply seeing how Rowling's first really perfected pre editing draft usually looks like. Golly From patnkatng at cox.net Tue Oct 14 21:29:51 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:29:51 -0000 Subject: Wotcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82900 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Davis" wrote: > > > Deirdre Woodward said: > > > > And what does Wotcher mean? Tonks says that a couple of times -- > > "Wotcher, Harry!" Is it some kind of greeting? > > > Jerry: > > Yes. British slang. Personally I think it's more used in the south. I used > > to use it whilst I was growing up in London, but I don't seem to hear it now > > I'm in the northern wastelands. > > > > > Very much London, not strictly Cockney. I even use it myself after 45 > years in the place. It has been suggested from this that Ron might > have Cockney connections and, as you say, it has been used in the > books on more than one occasion. > > Geoff After reading the definition, then re-reading OoP, I find that it reminds me of the Americanism, "Whassup?" in both meaning and usage. From lynch at agere.com Tue Oct 14 18:28:35 2003 From: lynch at agere.com (zihav) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:28:35 -0000 Subject: Petunia/Lilly Wedding Parties (WAS Re: New Poll for HPfor... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82901 Blue Eyes (in #82853): > Do you think that Vernon is almost afraid of Petunia because maybe she's a witch who renounced her magic but he's afraid that to go against her would cause her to pull an "aunt marge" (blow something up unintenionally)? > This got me to thinking about Petunia, what if she *is* a witch, but was expelled like Hagrid. This would explain why she hates the wizarding world and also why she knows more than she's letting on... She's not allowed to do magic, there was no one there to help her out like Hagrid.... Just a thought. Zihav From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 21:38:00 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:38:00 -0000 Subject: Return to the Chamber of Secrets? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82902 Is it just me or did we never actually find out what secrets were contained in the Chamber? I mean I know it was home to the Basilisk but there must be something more to it than that. While mulling this over the other day I went back to re-read the encounters between Harry and Riddle and something caught my eye which made me shiver a bit: Ch 17 pg 236 - The Heir of Slytherin "So ends the famous Harry Potter," said Riddle's distant voice "Alone in the Chamber of Secrets, forsaken by his friends, defeated at last by the Dark Lord he so unwisely challenged. You'll be back with you dear Mudblood mother soon Harry...She bought you twelve years of borrowed time...but Lord Voldemort got you in the end, as you knew he must." Now maybe its just Riddle getting carried away but I don't think Harry was forsaken by his friends, he didn't unwisely challenge the Dark Lord (just went to save Ginny) and book 2 Harry doesn't yet know that Lord Voldemort must get him in the end (or vice versa). But...it gets a little creepy if you think about our post book 5 Harry hearing that speech. Is this a sign of things to come? LPD From foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 18:47:20 2003 From: foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com (FoxyDoxy) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031014184720.5848.qmail@web60207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82903 Salit wrote: >Sorry I don't buy it. Lupin is such a *decent* person there is no way in my mind that he could be the traitor.< Doxy: I?m not going to try and convince any of you Lupin lovers that he is ESE or a killer, because it looks like you cannot be swayed. But I don?t see how, with all the evidence that points in that direction, you can still call him a *decent* person. Lupin has deliberately put thousands of lives in danger over the years, he has betrayed Dumbledore?s trust, and he quite possibly betrayed the trust of his closest schoolmates. He must have done something for them to not even consider him for the secret keeper job. (Side note: Why is Lupin?s name so conspicuously absent during the discussion between McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid, & Fudge at the 3 broomsticks? He doesn?t even get an honorable mention. He was working at the school, it?s not like they could have just forgotten about him.) If you read the showdown at the DoM scene that has been the main topic of discussion lately, it looks like Lupin doesn?t even have his wand out. And why should he? If he?s working both sides who does he have to defend himself against? I believe Lupin did take out his wand to kill Sirius when no one was watching him. Dumbledore had his hands full with a whole mass of Death Eaters, Harry didn?t see him do it because he was watching Sirius and Bellatrix fight, and Lupin tried to distract his attention from the scene by sending him to go round up the others. I think he did it, and I think he did it with deliberate intent and malice aforethought. (I have been discussing this off list with KathyK for quite awhile, the motive essay will be coming soon). As to why he killed Sirius instead of Kingsley or Tonks or Moody ? Stoned!Harry and a working knowledge of alchemy explains that. Since that?s a different theory altogether I won?t go into it here. *If* for some reason it turns out that Lupin is not ESE or a killer, then he is just a weak and treacherous coward. And I for one do not find that *decent* either. FoxyDoxy, sneaking snacks aboard the Killer!Lupin canoe. From miss_america_03 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 20:35:02 2003 From: miss_america_03 at yahoo.com (miss_america_03) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:35:02 -0000 Subject: Debt - Problem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82905 I specifically remember that Wormtail is in debt to Harry, and in every book that I've read since then I always wonder how/when that will play out. I hope she doesn't forget that she put that in and just leaves her readers wondering forever..! "miss_america_03" From lucchaser at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 21:26:15 2003 From: lucchaser at yahoo.com (Lady Luck) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:26:15 -0000 Subject: Squibs and cats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82906 I have a bunch of questions that have been bothering me for a while. For since the SS/PS I thought that there was something up with Filch's cat Mrs Norris. I use to think that Mrs. Norris was a wizard or a witch posing as a cat (an animagus). So now in the COS we found out that Filch is a squib. Ok fast forward to the OOTP, Arabella Figg is the same Mrs Figg who watched Harry when the Dursleys were away. And come to find out that she is also a squib with loads of cats. I was reading the chapter discussion post, and one of Mrs. Figg quotes was (something to the effect) "I sent Mr Tibbles (her cat) to look out for trouble, and he came and told me you were in trouble" Now my questions: 1) How in the world do these cats tell Mrs Figg or Mr Filch that there is trouble? 2) Do squibs have to have cats only or can they have other animals as well? 3) Do these cats say meow in a special way that only squibs understand? There are more questions but I can't think of any more right now. If anyone have any more questions or thoughts about this subject please reply, I would love to read your responses. Lucchaser From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 14 22:36:34 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:36:34 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: <20031014184720.5848.qmail@web60207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, FoxyDoxy wrote: > I don't see how, with all the evidence that points in that direction, > you can still call him a *decent* person. Lupin has deliberately put > thousands of lives in danger over the years, How so? You mean because he was a werewolf? What exactly could he do about that, other than commit suicide (which is not something that most people do)? > he has betrayed > Dumbledore's trust, If you refer to the fact that he did not tell DD about their escapades while he was in school, this may have been irresponsible but no worse than what his friends (the illegal animagi) did. If you mean because he did not tell DD that Sirius was an animagus, there is his own explanation (that he was ashamed of his youthfull transgressions). I also suspect that deep down he never completely accepted that Sirius was evil. > and he quite possibly betrayed the trust of his > closest schoolmates. How so? > He must have done something for them to not even > consider him for the secret keeper job. They knew that one of them was the traitor. They suspected him. That was a mistake on their part. How does that prove his guilt? > (Side note: Why is Lupin's > name so conspicuously absent during the discussion between McGonagall, > Flitwick, Hagrid, & Fudge at the 3 broomsticks? He doesn't even get > an honorable mention. He was working at the school, it's not like they > could have just forgotten about him.) Why should they mention his name? They were describing Sirius' capture. Lupin wasn't anywhere there, was he? > If you read the showdown at the DoM scene that has been the main topic > of discussion lately, it looks like Lupin doesn't even have his wand > out. And why should he? If he's working both sides who does he have to > defend himself against? Where does it say that he did not have his wand out? I need to reread that part, but the whole scene was so chaotic that one can't really tell who did what in there. My impression was that Lupin was assigned (or assigned to himself) the role of the kids' guardian. He is the only OoP member who asks about the kids or tells Harry and Ron what to do (except for a brief comment from Sirius). He is the one who stops Harry from running after Sirius. It is a very natural role for him, as he was the only ex-teacher in the group (Moody does not count for obvious reasons) and also because he seems to have taken on that role since the beginning of OoP - he was almost always part of Harry's guard when he was going to or from their headquarters. > I believe Lupin did take out his wand to kill Sirius when no one was > watching him. Sorry, I read all these arguments and I see absolutely no evidence in the plot to the claim that Lupin killed Sirius. But there is quite a few clues in the story to tell us how upset Lupin was at Sirius' death - his voice breaking, the effort involved in moving his eyes from the archway. He sounded as if every word caused him pain. Hardly the image of a cold blooded murderer... There is Bellatrix behaviour and the text which show that she was the one responsible, and she has shown herself to be extremely capable fighter. > Lupin tried to distract his attention from the > scene by sending him to go round up the others. Lupin's role in the group was to look out for the kids. I think it was very clear from the text. It made perfect sense to send Harry (the prime target for the attack) away from the battle. Lupin did not want the kids in there - too dangerous. > *If* for some reason it turns out that Lupin is not ESE or a killer, > then he is just a weak and treacherous coward. And I for one do not find > that *decent* either. Again, where is the evidence for that? He is not perfect. He is shown in the story as a decent humane person, but not always consistent in following up on his principles when they conflicted with his loyalty to his friends. This is a character fault to be certain, but hardly proof that he is evil. Salit (who knows she can't convince anyone but decided to respond anyway) From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 23:06:46 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:06:46 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: Did Lupin Kill Sirius?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Up to the end of OOP, Harry thought his task was to live up to his > father's legacy. The readers, well, this one anyway, have always > suspected that Harry's task is actually to succeed where his > father failed. James failed to catch the traitor, failed to save > Lily, failed to keep his friends from turning to the Dark Side, failed > to reconcile with Snape, failed to trust Dumbledore fully. > > I think Harry's friends will be tempted as James's were, but > because they remain united, they will stand fast. Snape is not > remote from the story. There are hints that James disregarded > information from Snape that could have saved him and Lily. Will > Harry make the same mistake because he's blaming the wrong > person for Sirius's death? > > Since James was undone by treachery, Harry must face > treachery and defeat it. Not knowing whom to trust is a major > theme in all the books. That's a very interesting idea, Pippin, and it answers a question that has been in the back of my mind since I read OOP. While I was saddened by Sirius' death, I mostly didn't lament the many things that he never got to do. With one exception - it bothered me tremendously that Sirius was never able to lay to rest his quarrel with Snape. More accurately, it bothered me that Snape now holds a grudge which he can never resolve against not one but two dead men. Snape has a great deal of unfinished business with the Marauders, and at the end of OOP, the last man who was in any position to resolve the situation was killed (I don't consider Lupin an active party in the discord, although Snape clearly does. He was obviously only a passive observer). This led to the uncomfortable conclusion that JKR might intend to leave Snape to fester in his anger for the rest of his life. Now you've suggested a more interesting possibility - Harry will not only learn from his father's mistakes, he will work to rectify them. The feud between Snape and the Marauders will be laid to rest by their collective son. As for Lupin, while I'm having trouble accepting the notion of Lupin the DE or Lupin as Sirius' killer, I have to admit that on a thematic level, the idea is intriguing. Lupin is essentially the last of the Marauders. Two are dead. One has committed an unpardonable betrayal and will almost certainly die before the series ends. We're left with a vestigial character, and I personally would find it awfully repetitive if Lupin were to die a righteous death in the line of duty like James and Sirius. However, Lupin the DE is even more ant-climatic. We already have the quintessential betrayer in Peter Pettigrew, and that character has the distinction of owing a life-debt to Harry. No matter how spectacularly Lupin betrays the OOP, he could never be as important as Pettigrew already is. In conclusion, I like the idea that there's more to Lupin then meets the eye, and that he has an unusual, and possibly painful destiny. Right now I find both proposed options - betrayal and death - unsatisfying. Abigail From hmmadigan at excite.com Tue Oct 14 23:33:23 2003 From: hmmadigan at excite.com (female_jedis) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:33:23 -0000 Subject: Mentoring at Hogwarts, WAS: Re: How Did McGonagall know? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82909 > > Jen replied, in post #82893: > > I also think McGonagall and Hermione have a mentoring relationship > > that's progressed throughout the series. Even though we don't see > it > > often, I suspect they talk quite a bit. ***snipped part*** We're given > > information about the mentoring relationships Harry engages in > (i.e., > > Lupin, Sirius, Dumbledore) but know very little about the > > Hermione/McGonagall connection--they could be a powerful team!! > > > > Bohcoo adds: > > What a splendid, thought-provoking post, Jen. There DOES seem to be a > rather close and unique connection between McGonagall and Hermoine, > which is happening "off-page." When you said that McGonagall "heard > Hermoine's words coming out of Harry's mouth," that implies quite a > personal knowledge by McGonagall of Hermoine. > > I agree with you -- it sounds like a mentoring arrangement moreso > than a winkwink relationship. I never really thought about the other > students receiving special, extra lessons from their professors. > > Harry received Patronus lessons from Lupin. . . Could Hermoine be > learning to become an animagus from McGonagall? > > We've also heard about Neville getting together with Prof. Sprout > regarding his mimblus plant. > > Who else do we think might be getting extra, mentoring-type > instruction? > > Thanks, Jen, for the catalyst on this! > Bohcoo I would guess that Draco is "mentored" in Potions by Snape. Also, don't Lavender Brown and Parvati Patil mention that they've learned extra stuff from Trelawny (take that for what you will)? I don't think Hagrid "mentors" anyone in the formal way we are discussing, but I think it is clear that he has taken Hermione, Ron and Harry under his umbrella so to speak. Similarly, I think Dumbledore oversees and cultivates Harry, but he doesn't "mentor" Harry the way Lupin did. I don't think anyone in Harry's class has demonstrated a proclivity toward Charms, so I don't think Professor Flitwick is mentoring anyone in Griffindor; but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have that relationship with someone in Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff or, dare I say it, Slytherin. Anyone think Madame Pomfrey is mentoring someone in the Healing Arts? As I re-read this, I'm struck by the notion that Ron doesn't seem to have a mentor. I'm not sure what that says. It could be that Harry, Hermione and Neville are most in need of a mentoring relationship. Many muggle mentoring programs focus on children in difficult backgrounds (children from impoverished and/or single parent homes for Big Brothers/Big Sisters/Big Buddies) or on children who are under-represented in leadership roles (I can think of a variety of programs for young girls, young African-Americans, etc). Harry and Neville are both orphaned and perhaps they need to have a strong relationship with an adult in the magical world. Hermione's parents are muggles and she would need a mentor to help guide her through the things in the magical world that can't be learned from a book. Maybe Ron, with his strong, supportive (except for Percy) magical family, doesn't need the same support structure to flourish in the magical world. Interesting topic. Thanks for taking us down this path. From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue Oct 14 23:21:45 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:21:45 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Return to the Chamber of Secrets? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031015121012.00a42b20@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82910 Yes, that is true. It does sound like something more. Would be a perfect place for a one on one battle, as they are the only two Parselmouths, can only get in there to begin with. Scary though, I agree. One other thing I picked up about the scene there. Somehow he knew about his (Tom) future as a 16 year old memory, as he asks about the attack and why. One thing just occurred to me, why doesn't he mention Harry joining his father too, they are both dead, or maybe James didn't count in the insult as he was supposedly a pureblood. Last not on this. When Dumbledore is talking to Harry afterwards he tells him that Harry has the traits that the Slytherin the wizard prized in his handpicked students. This clashes with the fact that he pulled the GG owned sword out of the sorting hat. I have been wondering for a little while if Harry is not the blend of those two houses. Tanya At 21:38 14/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >LPD wrote > >Ch 17 pg 236 - The Heir of Slytherin > >"So ends the famous Harry Potter," said Riddle's distant >voice "Alone in the Chamber of Secrets, forsaken by his friends, >defeated at last by the Dark Lord he so unwisely challenged. You'll >be back with you dear Mudblood mother soon Harry...She bought you >twelve years of borrowed time...but Lord Voldemort got you in the >end, as you knew he must." > >Now maybe its just Riddle getting carried away but I don't think >Harry was forsaken by his friends, he didn't unwisely challenge the >Dark Lord (just went to save Ginny) and book 2 Harry doesn't yet >know that Lord Voldemort must get him in the end (or vice versa). > >But...it gets a little creepy if you think about our post book 5 >Harry hearing that speech. Is this a sign of things to come? From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue Oct 14 23:35:12 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:35:12 +1300 Subject: The prophecies. Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031015122155.00a59760@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82911 I have been thinking about this for a while now, but been unsure if I launch into it, but here goes nothing. There has been a lot of debate into the prophecies in the books, and over who is the chosen boy. In my understanding prophecies need to be fulfilled to the very letter, nothing left out, but on the other hand, there can be many applications, and partial fulfilling, and/or a repeat and enlargement, leading to the final fulfillment and every word and letter accounted for in the steps of the prophecy. I believe the books have already set out these in the several battles, which will all lead to the final battle. I don't know how much JKR knows about prophecies in general, not just in this book, but lets deal with Neville for a start. He is born at the right time. But part of the prophecy required the actions of LV to set the ball rolling so to speak. Also at the time of the attack on Neville's parents LV was already vapour. I honestly don't know if LV showed up to them before, but there is no canon for this. Now, Harry, is main problem or advantage is that his wand will disable LV's and vice versa. So far he fits the parts of the prophecy, but there is a question mark over what power is unknown to LV. however with this question mark over who will achieve the status in the end, it will come down to the wire, and I have the impression only on point with determine it, so to speak. But if it is Harry, and not Neville, I can still see Neville being Harry's right hand man, and fighting with him, like in the OOTP battle, but with more success. Tanya From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Oct 14 23:46:45 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:46:45 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: Did Lupin Kill Sirius?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82912 "pippin_999" > > > > Since James was undone by treachery, Harry must face > > treachery and defeat it. Not knowing whom to trust is a major > > theme in all the books. Abigail: > That's a very interesting idea, Pippin, and it answers a question that > has been in the back of my mind since I read OOP. While I was > saddened by Sirius' death, I mostly didn't lament the many things that > he never got to do. With one exception - it bothered me tremendously > that Sirius was never able to lay to rest his quarrel with Snape. More > accurately, it bothered me that Snape now holds a grudge which he can > never resolve against not one but two dead men. Me: At the end of GoF, when Dumbledore insists that Snape and Sirius shake hands, I had thought that JKR was laying the groundwork for some sort of reconciliation between the two. Not that they would have tearfully fallen into each other's arms, washing away years of bitterness and anger. Or that they'd become great friends, because I never thought that was possible, but that they'd reach an understanding of each other and both be able to let go of all the baggage they still carry. Silly me. Abigail: > Snape has a great deal of unfinished business with the Marauders, and > at the end of OOP, the last man who was in any position to resolve the > situation was killed (I don't consider Lupin an active party in the discord, > although Snape clearly does. He was obviously only a passive observer). > This led to the uncomfortable conclusion that JKR might intend to leave > Snape to fester in his anger for the rest of his life. Me: Well, maybe she'll kill him off and put him out of his misery. ;-). Abigail: > Now you've suggested a more interesting possibility - Harry will not only > learn from his father's mistakes, he will work to rectify them. The feud > between Snape and the Marauders will be laid to rest by their collective > son. Me: I'm not quite getting this. I'm prepared to believe that Harry and Snape can each eventually get over the issues that lay between them, especially since their views of each other are so heavily influenced by their somewhat biased, incorrect views of each other. But, I'm not sure how that puts to rest any residual feelings Snape still has towards James and Sirius. Abigail: > As for Lupin, while I'm having trouble accepting the notion of Lupin the DE > or Lupin as Sirius' killer, I have to admit that on a thematic level, the idea is > intriguing. Lupin is essentially the last of the Marauders. Two are dead. > One has committed an unpardonable betrayal and will almost certainly die > before the series ends. We're left with a vestigial character, and I personally > would find it awfully repetitive if Lupin were to die a righteous death in the > line of duty like James and Sirius. Me: How about he plays a crucial, powerful role in helping Harry win the battle, and still ends up an outcast? Abigail: > However, Lupin the DE is even more ant-climatic. We already have the > quintessential betrayer in Peter Pettigrew, and that character has the > distinction of owing a life-debt to Harry. No matter how spectacularly Lupin > betrays the OOP, he could never be as important as Pettigrew already is. Me: Ah, yes, but Lupin could be ever so much more evil in that it would be a deliberate, conscious choice. Peter's betrayal smacks of weakness and desperation. He's never struck me as ever being a dedicated DE like Bellatrix, but, rather someone who was enticed or somehow threatened into going to the Dark side. And then, once he was there, he couldn't get out even had he wanted to because he knew the DEs would kill him. If Lupin were to turn or already be on the Voldemort's side, my impression is that he'd be fully committed to it. And, having said that, I, too, have to say that I just don't buy Lupin as DE or as Sirius' killer. I'm not going to rehash things others have said - it just doesn't *feel* right. Marianne From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 23:54:36 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:54:36 -0000 Subject: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82913 The FoxyDoxy wrote: >>I don't see how, with all the evidence that points in that direction, you can still call him a *decent* person. Lupin has deliberately put thousands of lives in danger over the years<< Salit replied: >How so? You mean because he was a werewolf? What exactly could he do about that, other than commit suicide (which is not something that most people do)?< KathyK: It's true, Lupin can't help being what he is. Recall, though, while at Hogwarts he and his friends spent numerous full moons running freely around the grounds and in the forest. Lupin even says, 'And there were near misses, many of them.' (PoA, US paperback 355) If he were really concerned about the safety of others he would have remained in the Shrieking Shack. They endangered students, teachers, and the inhabitants of nearby Hogsmeade. That's a great many people. How many years did this go on? The point is that even though he knew what he was and how dangerous it was he refused to take the precautions to ensure he didn't hurt anyone. And it wasn't up to his friends to get him to do what was right. They can't be blamed for his poor choices. Doxy: >>he has betrayed Dumbledore's trust<< Salit: >If you refer to the fact that he did not tell DD about their escapades while he was in school, this may have been irresponsible but no worse than what his friends (the illegal animagi) did.< KathyK: Yes, but Dumbledore hadn't gone to great lengths to help the others. Lupin was the only one who wouldn't have been allowed at the school because of his condition. Dumbledore got him in and kept his secret. He also ensured that Lupin would not endanger the other students and teachers. Lupin's disregard for what Dumbledore did for him so that he could have some fun with his friends is a greater betrayal of trust than the other three. Salit: >If you mean because he did not tell DD that Sirius was an animagus, there is his own explanation (that he was ashamed of his youthfull transgressions). I also suspect that deep down he never completely accepted that Sirius was evil.< KathyK: Lupin's explanation doesn't cut it. It makes him an awful coward if he's not evil. To put the entire population of Hogwarts in danger, especially Harry, because he was *ashamed* that he'd betrayed Dumbledore's trust is ridiculous. If he were so ashamed, why not atone for it by coming clean about Sirius being an animagus? And he knew Sirius wasn't evil because he's evil himself. ;-) Doxy: >>He must have done something for them to not even consider him for the secret keeper job.<< Salit: >They knew that one of them was the traitor. They suspected him. That was a mistake on their part. How does that prove his guilt?< KathyK: What I believe Doxy is trying to communicate is that there must be some reason that they suspected Lupin might be the spy. As in he must have done something to cause them to become suspicious. Unless of course they just decided that even though he's their good friend, he's a werewolf and therefore untrustworthy. That seems unlikely. Doxy: >>(Side note: Why is Lupin's name so conspicuously absent during the discussion between McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid, & Fudge at the 3 broomsticks? He doesn't even get an honorable mention. He was working at the school, it's not like they could have just forgotten about him.)<< Salit: >Why should they mention his name? They were describing Sirius' capture. Lupin wasn't anywhere there, was he?< KathyK: But they also touched on James, Peter, and Sirius while they were at school. Dropping Lupin in there is not completely irrelevant when considering that Lupin now works at Hogwarts *and* he was, along with Peter, one of Sirius and James' best friends. It would be an interesting detail, I would think. Salit: >He is the one who stops Harry from running after Sirius.< KathyK: Yes, because he thought Harry still had the prophecy and he didn't want to lose that. Besides by that point Dumbledore had turned toward the dais and seen Sirius. It would have blown Lupin's cover to just let Harry go running into the archway if he could stop it. Salit: >Sorry, I read all these arguments and I see absolutely no evidence in the plot to the claim that Lupin killed Sirius. But there is quite a few clues in the story to tell us how upset Lupin was at Sirius' death - his voice breaking, the effort involved in moving his eyes from the archway. He sounded as if every word caused him pain. Hardly the image of a cold blooded murderer...< KathyK: I agree he was upset at Sirius' death--but that doesn't mean he didn't do it. ;-) Salit: >There is Bellatrix behaviour and the text which show that she was the one responsible, and she has shown herself to be extremely capable fighter.< KathyK: But once again, the text doesn't say where the jet of light comes from and Bellatrix never says anywhere that she's the one who killed Sirius, even when she's taunting Harry. Why not gloat then? Salit: >Lupin's role in the group was to look out for the kids. I think it was very clear from the text. It made perfect sense to send Harry (the prime target for the attack) away from the battle. Lupin did not want the kids in there - too dangerous.< KathyK: Or he knew the kids were the ones who had the prophecy. And he didn't want to lose that so he chose the role of looking out for them so he could get his hands on it. >Salit (who knows she can't convince anyone but decided to respond anyway) KathyK (who knows she won't convince Salit but is having lots of fun discussing it) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 00:03:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 00:03:00 -0000 Subject: Only Lving Relative... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82914 Let's say for a moment that my name is Harry Potter and my mother's name is Lily Evans. Additionally, let's assume that my great great grandfather had one son and one daughter; the son being my great grandfather. So the daughter marries a guy named Fish and they have a daughter; making that daughter first cousin to my great grandfather. Now let's assume this second generation daughter marries a guy named Carp and they have a daughter; making this daughter second cousin to my grandfather. Then this daughter marries a guy name Trout, and they have a daughter who is third cousin to my father. This daughter then marries a guy named Evans and they have a son named Mark, who is my fourth cousin. Let us now assume that if you trace Mr. Evan family tree back through many generation, it intersects at some distant point with the Lily Evans family tree. Are Mark Evans and I related, or are we total strangers? For all intent and purpose, we are total strangers. The only reason I know him at all is because he lives in my neighborhood. Point, we are all related. Life began in a couple of small 'cradles of civilization', and we are all the decendants of those 'cradles'. So Mark Evans and Harry could share a distant branch of the family tree, and still not be considered 'living relatives' for any reasonable or practical purposes. I'm related to Bakkans, Nelsons, and maybe a few Ellingsons, but for the most part they are all strangers to me. I'm more closely related to any Ellingsons I know through my first cousin who married an Ellingson than I am through any that might be lurking in my family tree. So, I agree with everyone that Mark Evans is a very significant character, and will concede that they might share common ancestors; but, give that, I will add that I don't see that as any conflict in the statement by Dumbledore that Petunia is Harry's only living relative. Just a thought. bboy_mn From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 01:30:25 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:30:25 -0000 Subject: I'm Off to See Hogsmeade (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82915 The 7th filk from the musical-in-progress "Azkaboon" (or, pace Constance Vigilance, "Brig of Doom"), from the Lerner & Loewe musical Brigadoon I'm Off to See Hogsmeade (PoA, Chap 10) To the tune of I'll Go Home With Bonnie Jean from Briagadoon Dedicated to Phyllis Hear a MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat228.html THE SCENE: Third-years prepare to go on their second Hogsmeade excursion. CHORUS OF THIRD-YEARS: We now have reached the age 13. We're old enough now that we can convene In that unique old town with its wizardly renown And there amidst its shops and planks, We'll fill our bag with Acid Pops and pranks An' quell our sweet tooth's greed, for we're off to see Hogsmeade! We're off, we're off, we're off to see Hogsmeade! We're off, we're off, We are off to see Hogsmeade! HARRY: My uncle said he'd sign my note If I just agreed to not rock the boat `Twas the very note I need if I were to see Hogsmeade Alas, the note did go unsigned, my uncle so unkind declined His signature accede, so I'll not go to Hogsmeade! CHORUS: Not go, not go, not go to see Hogsmeade!! Not go, not go HARRY & CHORUS: I'll not go to see Hogsmeade! (Exit all, except HARRY, FRED & GEORGE) GEORGE: You know us to be rovin' lads In Argus' den we were once made glad To filch this magic map that makes sneaking out a snap. FRED "I solemn promise to do wrong," Then Padfoot, Wormtail, Moony and Prongs Will wish to you "Godspeed," and you're off to see Hogsmeade! HARRY, FRED & GEORGE I'm/You're off, I'm/you're off, I'm/you're off to see Hogsmeade! I'm/you're off, I'm/you're off I am/you are off to see Hogsmeade! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 15 01:54:27 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:54:27 -0000 Subject: Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" < miss_america_03 at y...> wrote: > I specifically remember that Wormtail is in debt to Harry, and > in every book that I've read since then I always wonder how/when > that will play out. I hope she doesn't forget that she put that in > and just leaves her readers wondering forever..! > > > "miss_america_03" That's not the only debt, Harry saved Ginny's life in CoS. No, it's not as "merciful" a granting of life to create the debt, but Harry surely risked his own life and but for Fawkes' tears, they'd both be dead and cold. It's a debt much in the same way as Snape's debt to Harry's father. Which, by the way, probably just wasn't about the whole Whomping Willow thing. I, and others here, have theorized that Snape was the eavesdropped for the original hearing of the prophecy and I might also guess that FAILING to save someone's life or causing their death, may make one feel a life debt. So I might imagine that Snape somehow let that info out and feels/is responsible for James and Lily's deaths by way of leaking hte prophecy--two more life debts on top of the Whomping Willow--three. So far, Snape only saved Harry once (that we know of)--in Phil Stone with the jinxed broom. By my count, that leaves Harry with two definate life debts and more than likely four: 1. Ginny 2. Wormtail 3. Snape (loss of James's life) 4. Snape (loss of Lily's life) Are there any more I forgot? Arya From artcase at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 02:02:47 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:02:47 -0000 Subject: Only Lving Relative... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: (snipped for space) > So, I agree with everyone that Mark Evans is a very significant > character, and will concede that they might share common ancestors; > but, give that, I will add that I don't see that as any conflict in > the statement by Dumbledore that Petunia is Harry's only living relative. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn IF you go far enough back in my family tree, I am related to William Spencer of Connecticut, which in itself is no big deal. But, his lineage (if you jump across a few "puddles" so to speak) is decended from Charlemagne. On my mother's side, her father was from Switzerland and decended from the reformer Zwingli. Now, I'm not claiming to be an evangelist, or king, but the documentation is there. If I can trace back on both sides to at least 1500, how come LV is the last decendant of Salizar Slytherin? That would be like saying there are no decendants of Henry the Eighth. Which begs another question... who did Salizar Slytherin marry? OR Who would marry Salizar Slytherin? (remember, he thinks keeping a basilisk in a school full of children to be no big deal...) ARt. From dcyasser at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 02:13:29 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:13:29 -0000 Subject: Reading Lupin (Was Pippin/who will betray the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82918 > KathyK wrote, regarding student!Lupin: > > Yes, but Dumbledore hadn't gone to great lengths to help the > others. Lupin was the only one who wouldn't have been allowed at > the school because of his condition. Dumbledore got him in and kept his secret. He also ensured that Lupin would not endanger the other students and teachers. Lupin's disregard for what Dumbledore did for him so that he could have some fun with his friends is a greater betrayal of trust than the other three. dc: And I thought, why does that sound familiar? Because Lupin gives Harry the same lecture, PoA US hardcover p.290 "Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, Harry. A poor way to repay them - gambling their sacrifice for a bag of magic tricks." Which doesn't have much to do with the evil Lupin arguement but certainly gives him a "do as I say,not as I do" moment. As for evil- or- not Lupin, this thread led me to review Lupin's explanation of his irresponsible behavior then and now, as spoken in the Shrieking Shack, and commented on by Salit: > >If you mean because he did not tell DD that Sirius was an animagus, there is his own explanation (that he was ashamed of his youthfull transgressions). I also suspect that deep down he never completely accepted that Sirius was evil.< and by KathyK: > Lupin's explanation doesn't cut it. It makes him an awful coward if he's not evil. To put the entire population of Hogwarts in danger, especially Harry, because he was *ashamed* that he'd betrayed Dumbledore's trust is ridiculous. If he were so ashamed, why not atone for it by coming clean about Sirius being an animagus? And he knew Sirius wasn't evil because he's evil himself. ;-) > Now dc: Lupin says (with "self-disgust in his voice") that he convinced himself that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts, and that his being an Animagus had nothing to do with it. He was desperate to convince himself of this because a) he doesn't want to confess the Animagi Tales to DD and own up to his betrayal b)he doesn't want to revisit his own stupidity as a student, from which he is trying to distance himself c) he still reallly wants to be accepted, yet he is constantly aware of the reasons why he shouldn't be, and fights this battle in himself. (Look in the mirror and say "i am a good person, I deserve to be happy --- No, wait, I am a werewolf and a coward." Hey, wait, couldn't this dual personality make him be Remulus and Romus? Or at least get him a screen test as Golum?) By confessing to DD he would admit his own weakness of character, and it would be obvious that he trusts himself neither as a werewolf nor as a man. He's a person who's waiting to be found out as a fraud, as unworthy, and when you re-read this, you see he actually condemns himself. "...so, in a way, Snape's been right about me all along." "He has been telling Dumbledore all year that I am not to be trusted." Is this JKR telling us Remus can't be trusted? Now, I don't believe in evil Lupin, (I just *can't*), but I read this text a new way this time, and I believe in horribly-low-esteem Lupin, which is reinforced by the Pensieve scene in OotP. I think Lupin is too terrified of being corrupted and becoming a stereotypical Dark Creature to actually go to the Dark Side; but I could see (and this is just coming to me now) an error in judgement on his part, perhaps on one of those days where he is not having a backbone, leading to disaster. "Oh sure, Harry, go to Hogsmeade, whatever...oops." Fear of being the Dark Creature also keeps Lupin non-confrontational, which is perhaps why he did not challenge Snape in a timely manner about continuing Harry's lessons. Yup, wimpy Lupin could be a danger. That said, what I'd really like to see is Angry, I'm-Mad-as-Hell-and-Ready-to-Kick-Butt, Let-the-Wolf-Roar Lupin. cheers dc From catlady at wicca.net Wed Oct 15 03:03:20 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:03:20 -0000 Subject: Return to the Chamber of Secrets? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031015121012.00a42b20@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > One other thing I picked up about the scene there. Somehow he knew > about his (Tom) future as a 16 year old memory, as he asks about > the attack and why. Diary!Tom knew about his future (Lord Voldemort's past, Harry's past) because Ginny had told him about it. Hey, Katrina, (in case you see this post,) I book marked that etymology site you gave the URL for. I usually use American Heritage Dictionary for etymologies -- it has the appendix of Indo-European roots -- and One-Look give me the 1828 and 1911 Websterses to check how an etymology has changed over time -- but I always appreciate another resource. American Heritage http://www.bartleby.com/61/ One-Look Dictionary http://www.onelook.com/index.html From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 03:12:30 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:12:30 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" wrote: > (From "Wizardnews") In regards to book 6, he only had one thing to share. > -Word around work this week, is that JK publicly said "Harry sustains a minimal but lasting injury in this book." It is also reported to be roughly just under the length of GoF and will most likely be done by early January. (The first draft.). O-kay. I don't really like to believe anything unless I read/hear of it from an official source, so, where is this wizardnews place? Is there a link you can post? And who is the "he" mentioned? Erin From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 15 04:39:39 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 04:39:39 -0000 Subject: Only Lving Relative... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Let's say for a moment that my name is Harry Potter and my mother's > name is Lily Evans. > > Additionally, let's assume that my great great grandfather had one son > and one daughter; the son being my great grandfather. > > So the daughter marries a guy named Fish and they have a daughter; > making that daughter first cousin to my great grandfather. > > Now let's assume this second generation daughter marries a guy named > Carp and they have a daughter; making this daughter second cousin to > my grandfather. > > Then this daughter marries a guy name Trout, and they have a daughter > who is third cousin to my father. This daughter then marries a guy > named Evans and they have a son named Mark, who is my fourth cousin. > > Let us now assume that if you trace Mr. Evan family tree back through > many generation, it intersects at some distant point with the Lily > Evans family tree. > > Are Mark Evans and I related, or are we total strangers? > > For all intent and purpose, we are total strangers. The only reason I > know him at all is because he lives in my neighborhood. > > Point, we are all related. Life began in a couple of small 'cradles of > civilization', and we are all the decendants of those 'cradles'. > > So Mark Evans and Harry could share a distant branch of the family > tree, and still not be considered 'living relatives' for any > reasonable or practical purposes. > > I'm related to Bakkans, Nelsons, and maybe a few Ellingsons, but for > the most part they are all strangers to me. I'm more closely related > to any Ellingsons I know through my first cousin who married an > Ellingson than I am through any that might be lurking in my family tree. > > So, I agree with everyone that Mark Evans is a very significant > character, and will concede that they might share common ancestors; > but, give that, I will add that I don't see that as any conflict in > the statement by Dumbledore that Petunia is Harry's only living relative. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn There's a slight problem with this: Dumbledore NEVER says "only living relative", he SAYS: "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. "They're the only family he has left now." (US paperback, p13) It may seem like perhaps the same thing, but I don't necessarily think it is. I think that *family* may mean blood relation close (bloodwise to Lily) enough to offer a home for Harry. I also think it may be a clue that it's NOT said in a way to mean 'the only living relative'. I can't find it now on the QQ site (it seems to be down) but I seem to recall reading/hearing in an interview with JKR that in her first draft of PS chapter 1, she actually explained almost the entire story--current mysteries and all as part of her narrative. She, obviously, edited it outlater to make the story more of a mystery and thus, the epic it is today. Anyway, this sticks with me whenever I read anything in that first chapter of PS. If it's in there--it's for a very good reason and worded, I believe, in a very particular way on purpose. If it's NOT in there, then that's a clue, as well. I really wish I could find this quote to make sure it wasn't imagined or misquoted. If someone else remembers this, please let me know I'm not going nutters. Arya From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 04:44:58 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 04:44:58 -0000 Subject: Symbolism & Metaphors; Ron at the DoM; some Snape (WAS: Hermione's growth In-Reply-To: <006601c39179$6f7959c0$9ddc5644@aoldsl.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82923 > Debbie wrote: [heavy snips] > It's at this point that Ron is literally attacked by a metaphor. Ron summons, and then grabs a brain, only to be attacked by it, or more accurately, by the "tentacles of thought" which "began wrapping themselves around Ron's arms like ropes." The image of all those tentacles of thought floating toward Ron, wrapping themselves around and trying to suffocate him paints a pretty accurate picture of what's been going on in his head over the past 2-3 books and particularly OOP where his lack of faith in himself nearly loses Gryffindor a Quidditch cup that was within its grasp. [snip] > Thus, we don't actually see Ron fight off the brain (we know he did, through Neville's report), just as (like Hermione and Harry) we don't see him overcome his fears at Quidditch. Which is metaphorically exactly right, because Ron's struggle is internal and he must resolve it himself. Harry can't stop the thoughts from attacking Ron any more than he can turn Ron into a good Keeper by catching the snitch. What finally happened at the Quidditch final was that, when left to his own devices, Ron finally trusted his instincts Gorda here: First of all, congratulations on a brilliant post! I particularly like this explanation, because it really bothered me that H/H and us didn't get to see Ron overcome his self-doubt and win the cup for Gryffindor. But of course, as you point out, Ron really needs to be left alone at this point, so he can grow out of Harry's shadow (and his brothers, remember this is the first time Ron has played without Fred and Gorge in the stands). [more snipping] > > The scar metaphor seems directly applicable to another character who doesn't appear in the DoM scene: Severus Snape. Look at what Dumbledore says of Snape (ch 37 OOP): "'I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply. 'But I forgot -- another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.' Whether or not it's really his worst memory, Snape is caught up in the thoughts of those events, just as the brain's tentacles cling to Ron as if to suffocate him. And he hasn't been to see Madam Pomfrey lately, because the scars left by Snape's memories of James are still controlling him. > > > Debbie > > Gorda: Aha! very well put. This also puts Snape into perspective. What bothers me about the Evil!Snape versus Good!Snape debate is that it is awfully reductionist. If JKR has done anything in these books, and especially OoP, is to show how people aren't necessarily just good or just evil, but rather have much more complexities: Hagrid puts the trio in danger many times through his good-natured but dangerous love of monsters, James and Sirius turn out to have been prats in their youth, Lupin has serious acceptance issues, Molly is a caring but smothering mother, and DD makes mistakes, etc etc. Snape is a great character because there is this tension between his obvious loyalty to DD, his having saved Harry's life in his first year, and on the other hand his friendship with DEs and his obvious dislike (hate?) of anything Marauder. We know now that Snape has good reason for these feelings, but as you say, he is allowing those feelings of resentment to control him. Rather than talk about redemption, in Snape's case we should talk about the healing of those wounds, the "forgive and forget" that the Oblivious Unction probably carries... I wonder, how will such a healing come about in Snape's case? (or will it? is JKR going to leave him to stew in such nasty memories forever? i sure hope not...) Gorda From chrissilein at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 05:24:11 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:24:11 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82924 Hi Erin, try yahoo search and take a look for wizardnews (there is a homepage, I found it). This is the only information I got to read in a German speaking forum, but I will try to find out further informations. OK? Chrissi --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" > wrote: > > > (From "Wizardnews") In regards to book 6, he only had one thing to > share. > > -Word around work this week, is that JK publicly said "Harry > sustains a minimal but lasting injury in this book." It is also > reported to be roughly just under the length of GoF and will most > likely be done by early January. (The first draft.). > > > O-kay. I don't really like to believe anything unless I read/hear of > it from an official source, so, where is this wizardnews place? Is > there a link you can post? And who is the "he" mentioned? > > Erin From oppen at mycns.net Wed Oct 15 06:32:32 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:32:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A New Theory References: <5.0.2.1.2.20031015164454.00a39a00@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <028d01c392e6$1f7b1800$37560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 82925 Another super interesting theory An even more appealing clue was exposed by HP Super Sleuth Jane Clare. She feels that if Harry was a more powerful wizard than Voldemort had realized, that even as a baby, Harry may have had powers far greater than a normal wizard. What if Voldemort were wrong, and it was not a rebounded curse? What if it didn't rebound, but instead originated from Harry? We have been shown so many times how an emotional wizard child can do some interesting magic (remember Harry ended up on roofs and trees, and that he didn't need to worry about picking the lock after blowing up Marge. So, what if Harry had become extremely emotional during the attack on his family? What would he have been capable of? (Eric chimes in:) This sounds very like the book _Carrie,_ by Stephen King (some of you may have read or heard of it, or seen the movie). For those not familiar with the book, Carrie White, the main character, is telekenetic (she can move things by ESP) but it doesn't really kick in until her menarche. However, even _before_ that, she has had times, when she was under great emotional stress (usually due to her psychotic mother's abuse) when she's Done Things. The most spectacular involved a rain of stones from a clear sky that damaged the Whites' home when Carrie's mother was throwing a gigantic fit about something Carrie had done, when Carrie was about six or seven. Here is how HP Super Sleuth Jane Clare describes it: I am thinking that [Harry's] scar itself may be the first and the biggest red herring that JKR dragged across our path. She reinforced, and conditioned us to think it was caused directly by Voldemort, by frequent flashbacks to that brilliant green light in the Potter's house. The heart of my theory is that: 7 It was Harry himself who destroyed his family's house, in his fright and anger... 7 The brilliant green light was issuing from Harry, directed at Voldemort 7 That it was Harry himself... not his mother's love in his skin (another, related fish, from Dumbledore no less!), that caused Voldemort his setback. This is an interesting idea. Nobody, after all, really _knows_ what went down then, except V-mort and Wormtail, who are the only two surviving adult witnesses. From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 15 06:30:03 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:30:03 -0000 Subject: Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82926 Arya wrote: > By my count, that leaves Harry with two definate life debts and more than > likely four: > 1. Ginny > 2. Wormtail > 3. Snape (loss of James's life) > 4. Snape (loss of Lily's life) sachmet96: Arthur owes Harry a life debt. I don't think Snape owes Harry a life debt, the debt was to his father. In fact Snape saved Harry's life so Harry owes a life debt to him imo. Even if he owes Harry 2 debts he is more than even, he saved him in PS during Quidditch, in book 5 when he informed everyone that Harry gone, then when he went looking for him in the Forbidden Forest, he also tried to save him in book 3 (he didn't know that Remus, Sirius (murderer)) weren't trying to kill Harry, ... Harry also owes a debt to Dubledore (if he sent Fawkes in CoS), all the people who were at the Ministry in book 5 to save him from Voldemort and I am sure some others. I wonder how Harry is going to repay them all. Thinking about it the whole concept of life debts is kind of impractical. Everytime someone saves your life you owe a debt. What about healers then? They constantly save lifes or Aurors? Or what about Postion Masters (not only Snape) when they create healing potions? sachmet96 From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Oct 15 07:22:32 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:22:32 -0000 Subject: Squibs and cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82927 --- "Lady Luck" wrote: > I have a bunch of questions > Now my questions: > 1) How in the world do these cats tell Mrs Figg or > Mr Filch that there is trouble? > 2) Do squibs have to have cats only or can they have other > animals as well? > 3) Do these cats say meow in a special way that only squibs > understand? > > There are more questions but I can't think of any more right now. > If anyone have any more questions or thoughts about this subject > please reply, I would love to read your responses.> > Lucchaser Strange how students are invited to bring a pet owl, CAT, or toad to Hogwarts, but KNEAZLES (or other uniquely magical creatures) are not listed. Cats (esp black ones) have long been lumped together in the "Witch" package. ~aussie~ From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Oct 15 07:28:42 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:28:42 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82928 > > --- In "Lady Of The Pensieve" wrote: > > > > > (From "Wizardnews") In regards to book 6, he only had one thing > > to share. > > > -Word around work this week, is that JK publicly said "Harry > > sustains a minimal but lasting injury in this book." Tut, tut, tut .. Harry should have listened to Mad Eyed Moody and not kept his wand in his hip pocket. (OOTP) After all, just rubbing a wand is enough to give off sparks (GOF 18). Jusk kidding ... or is this how JKR thinks? ~aussie~ From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 08:12:04 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:12:04 -0000 Subject: Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: > Arya wrote: By my count, that leaves Harry with two definate life debts and more than likely four: 1. Ginny 2. Wormtail 3. Snape (loss of James's life) 4. Snape (loss of Lily's life) sachmet96: Arthur owes Harry a life debt. I don't think Snape owes Harry a life debt, the debt was to his father. In fact Snape saved Harry's life so Harry owes a life debt to him imo. Even if he owes Harry 2 debts he is more than even, he saved him in PS during Quidditch, Hello all, Fred Waldrop Here: Actually he *tried* to save Harry's lie in PS/SS, it was Hermione who saved Harry by knocking Quirrel over getting to Snape. Snape did help "protect" Harry at the quidditch match, but he did not save him. ______________________________________________________________________ sachmet96: in book 5 when he informed everyone that Harry gone, then when he went looking for him in the Forbidden Forest, Fred again: There is no canon to support that Snape went into the forest at all. All it says in the book is he *intended* to go look in the forest. ______________________________________________________________________ sachmet96: he also tried to save him in book 3 (he didn't know that Remus, Sirius (murderer)) weren't trying to kill Harry, ... Fred again: Once more, I disagree. When Snape went into Lupins office he saw the Maurders map and seen Sirius, HRH & Lupin going to the Shericking Shack. All Snape wanted to do was kill Sirius, not save anyone. (and for his bonus, he was going to let the dementors give Lupin a little kiss too, just for old time sake. ______________________________________________________________________ sachmet96: Harry also owes a debt to Dubledore (if he sent Fawkes in CoS), Fred: Fawkes came to Harry because he was showing loyality toward Dumbledore. ______________________________________________________________________ sachmet96: all the people who were at the Ministry in book 5 to save him from Voldemort and I am sure some others. Fred: They all *volunteered* to go, they did not save Harry's life. Plus, there is one two more, Hermione in PoA when the dementors went for Harry, Hermione & Sirius. And also Fleur Delacour's little sister, Gabrielle in GoF, the second task. (although the saving of Gabrielle is questionable, Fleur sure thought it to be so). Fred Waldrop From hannahwonder at aol.com Tue Oct 14 21:56:11 2003 From: hannahwonder at aol.com (hannahwonder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:56:11 EDT Subject: Petunia/Lilly Wedding Parties (WAS Re: New Poll...) Message-ID: <1a8.1ac09de2.2cbdcafb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82930 In a message dated 10/13/03 2:23:48 AM, hickengruendler at yahoo.de writes: << (snipped) But I must say, that I personally don't think, that Petunia was at the wedding. I actually can't see Vernon forbidding anything to Petunia. He is always very nice to her and Dudley, and I don't think he ever forbid them anything. I also think that it's really Petunia, who has the say in the family. Vernon is always shouting and she remains silent, but I think it's mostly because she agrees with him or doesn't care either way. But as soon as the howler arrived, she decided what should happen with Harry. Vernon could have thrown him out anyway, even if Petunia doesn't agree with it. But obviously he doesn't want to annoy her. >> Now me (Hannah): You have an excellent argument; I think I have to remain undecided on Petunia. I could see either Donna's theory that Petunia became embittered toward Lilly after her marriage, but also your point, that she has the say in the family. In the end, I don't think Petunia was at the Potters' wedding, whether Lilly wanted her as part of the wedding party or not. I just can't decide if this is because of her own decision or Vernon's influence. I like your example of the howler for her own choice, but I can't think of many other cases where this has happened. This isn't to say that she is submissive to whatever Vernon wants, certainly, but she doesn't seem to be bossing /him/ around too much. Hannah From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 15 08:50:08 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:50:08 -0000 Subject: Sirius the Traitor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82931 Hi, I have been following the discussion of Lupin being a traitor and killer of Sirius and I can see why he would betray them. I remember a line in OOTP where it is said that werewolves have now even less right (but I can't find the part anymore). While I agree that Lupin could be a traitor I do think that Sirius is more likely to be the one. It is his death after all that hurts Harry the most. Even if Sirius didn't die willingly for Voldemort's goal (that's why he is so surprised when he dies, it wasn't according to the plan he and Voldemort had). I think the whole thing at the MoM was staged to demoralise Harry. Sirius was working for Voldemort and the plan was that he should stage his own death (maybe Lupin was part of the plan if he also works for Voldemort) but there was a change of plan Sirius knew nothing about. Sirius had to die for real of course no one would tell him that before so he was naturally surprised when he realized it was for real. But why would Sirius help Voldemort? There are a few things to consider imo. I find it very suspiciously how Sirius on one hand helps Harry but on the other always 'confuses' him with James and says to Harry that he is nothing like James (that's a simple - and sneaky - way of deeply hurting Harry, who at least at the beginning of OOTP still sees James as his idol). So Sirius hurts Harry with this little statements. Then I always wondered why Sirius was able to duel so good. He was in Azkaban for years, then he was a fugitive and later he couldn't leave the house. So where did he train his duelling abilities, I am sure he needed some practice after spending so much time in Azkaban. I assume he joined Voldemort and got his training (and wand?) there, while he officially was still on the run. Also there was no reason for him to leave the house and go to the MoM. But if he was working for Voldemort and they wanted to demoralise Harry by staging his (Sirius) death it all makes sense. But apparently there was a change of plans that Sirius didn't know about and which included his death (seen from Voldemort's point of few it makes sense to kill Sirius for real, no witnesses so to say and he could make sure Sirius didn't develop a real liking/compassion for Harry or remembered his duty as godfather in the future and reappeared and thereby ruining Voldemort's plan). Sirius even has a reason to join Voldemort and he has shown as a teen that he is definitely capable of murder. Even someone who is about 16 must know what it means to send someone after a werewolf, I can't imagine someone not to be aware of the consequences. The reason for him to join Voldemort is obvious imo. His so called friends left him in Azkaban for over 10 years. He must be really angry with them, because from his point of few they abandoned him there and apparently no one looked even after him (because then he could have told them he was innocent, if they believed him is another matter). So he was forgotten in prison for years until he managed to break out and then suddenly they accepted him back like nothing happened where before they didn't even care enough to make sure he was really guilty. So it is likely that he wants revenge (I would definitely want it) and what would be better than joining Voldemort? Voldemort might have killed James and Lily but he also could offer the means for Sirius revenge on Dumbledore and the others. And not to forget that the years spend in Azkaban couldn't have been healthy for his mind's health. And what would be the best revenge? If their fight against Voldemort is unseccessful, they put so much into it and I bet it's very satisfying for Sirius if he can destroy their hopes and dreams. And to do that he has to destroy Harry. Not because Harry is a danger to Voldemort, but because in doing so he would take away the hope they have for winning. As a side note Sirius might like Harry, but he doesn't `know' him. He might be his godfather but they haven't met more than a few times, I doubt that's enough to establish a relationship that would be stronger than Sirius drive for revenge (of which he might have though his whole time in Azkaban). And obviously Sirius is more concerned with his personal revenge on Peter than Harry's (and his friends) safety. At the end of PoA he doesn't even think about the thread Remus could pose to Harry when he transforms into a werewolf, I doubt that anyone who really loves Harry would oversee something like that. Further when he discovers that Severus is going to give Harry Occlumency lessons he does everything to make Severus angry. Why would he do that? Severus is going to help Harry. Sirius might not like Severus, but as his godfather he should be pleased that someone is going to help Harry protect himself against Voldemort, even if he doesn't like that someone, and he knows that it's on Dumbledore's orders. But if he works for Voldemort he can't be pleased and so pushes Severus buttons so that Snape would lose his willingness to teach Harry. Also doing that in front of Harry also lessens Harry's willingness to learn. The only `problem' I see with Sirius being a traitor is that if Sirius were one Voldemort would know that Severus works for Dumbledore. But then I am sure he does know that already (GoF). As we do not know what exactly Severus' duty is and even if he is an active spy I don't see a real problem with that. And during the whole OOTP Voldemort seemed to be to know what exactly the Order was doing, so Sirius who is a member could have informed Voldemort about their activities. Maybe Sirius didn't tell all of their activities either because he didn't know much or/and he didn't want too. After all he didn't join Voldemort out of conviction but out of revenge and Voldemort is aware of this (another reason why he killed Sirius). Sirius wants revenge on certain people but maybe he isn't willing to scarify the whole wizarding world, who knows? I don't think he is sane enough to really know what he is doing. That's the way I see it. What do you think? I would be interested in other opinions. Bye, sachmet96 From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 15 08:59:51 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:59:51 -0000 Subject: Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82932 > sachmet96: > > Arthur owes Harry a life debt. > > I don't think Snape owes Harry a life debt, the debt was to his > father. In fact Snape saved Harry's life so Harry owes a life debt to > him imo. Even if he owes Harry 2 debts he is more than even, he saved > him in PS during Quidditch, > > Hello all, Fred Waldrop Here: > Actually he *tried* to save Harry's lie in PS/SS, it was Hermione who > saved Harry by knocking Quirrel over getting to Snape. Snape did > help "protect" Harry at the quidditch match, but he did not save him. sachmet96: I still think it was Snape who saved him and not Hermione as Harry would have fallen of the broom if Snape wouldn't have counteracted Quirrel's curse. But even if it was Hermione Harry owes her a life debt now, what is he going to do about that? > sachmet96: > he also tried to save him in book 3 (he didn't know that Remus, > Sirius (murderer)) weren't trying to kill Harry, ... > > Fred again: > Once more, I disagree. When Snape went into Lupins office he saw the > Maurders map and seen Sirius, HRH & Lupin going to the Shericking > Shack. All Snape wanted to do was kill Sirius, not save anyone. (and > for his bonus, he was going to let the dementors give Lupin a little > kiss too, just for old time sake. sachmet96: Wish Snape had succeded. But anyway I still think he went partly to the Shack to save Harry, because he knew Remus was a werewolf and hadn't taken the potion, unfortunately he was knocked out. > sachmet96: > Harry also owes a debt to Dubledore (if he sent Fawkes in CoS), > > Fred: > Fawkes came to Harry because he was showing loyality toward > Dumbledore. sachmet96 But Fawkes is a pet. I don't think Harry can own a life debt to an (immortal) bird, so it would go onto Dumbledore or not? I am really confused about the concept of life debts, is the intention to save ones life enought to get into a life debt? Is it inheritable? That would be really stupid, everyone would then owe life debts. bye, sachmet96 From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Oct 15 09:01:06 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:01:06 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" > wrote: > > > (From "Wizardnews") In regards to book 6, he only had one thing to > share. > > -Word around work this week, is that JK publicly said "Harry > sustains a minimal but lasting injury in this book." It is also > reported to be roughly just under the length of GoF and will most > likely be done by early January. (The first draft.). > > > O-kay. I don't really like to believe anything unless I read/hear of > it from an official source, so, where is this wizardnews place? Is > there a link you can post? And who is the "he" mentioned? > > Erin It's on www.darkmark.com, and it was also later posted on the leaky cauldron. However, it's still doubtful, if the information is reliable. The leaky cauldron isn't sure, either. Hickengruendler From furkin1712 at aol.com Wed Oct 15 01:34:44 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:34:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia/Lilly Wedding Parties (WAS Re: New Poll for HPfor... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82934 Blue Eyes (in #82853): > Do you think that Vernon is almost afraid of Petunia because maybe she's a witch who renounced her magic but he's afraid that to go against her would cause her to pull an "aunt marge" (blow something up unintenionally)? > Zihav: >This got me to thinking about Petunia, what if she *is* a witch, but >was expelled like Hagrid. This would explain why she hates the >wizarding world and also why she knows more than she's letting on... >She's not allowed to do magic, there was no one there to help her out >like Hagrid.... ? I just thought it was false how she blamed overhearing a conversation between LIly and James on how she knew about Dementors. I think it was overly false, I mean, why would she be listening in on their conversation if she hated them so much anyway? And Vernon doesn't really seemed perturbed at all by the prospect of Voldemort coming back but Petunia seemed to understand. She knows more then she wants people to think. Glad someone else sees it. BLue Eyes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 14 04:00:59 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:00:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mentoring at Hogwarts, WAS: Re: How Did McGonagall know? References: Message-ID: <003701c39207$c8481760$618aaec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 82935 I would guess that Hagrid mentors Luna in CoMC "off page," since they both have an interest in unusual, rare, and fantastic creatures. Not to mention that Luna takes critters like Thestrals in stride. (This is not a new idea, as it has been mentioned on list before by a number of people... which is why I don't try to cite specific instances... It's just an expansion on the idea that Hagrid explained the Thestrals to Luna. I'm just surprised that Neville's never mentioned them in any of the earlier books. Makes you wonder when his grandfather died...) Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From dfran at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 15 09:16:15 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:16:15 -0000 Subject: 3 missing Death Eaters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oiramertip" > wrote: > > > Mario wrote, in post #82874: > > > Has anyone speculated as to what Snape could have done to convince > > LV not to kill and let him back? > > > > Mario > > Bohcoo responds: > Why, yes, Mario, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to > mention my theory once again: > > I don't think LV necessarily "let" Snape back. I think Snape is > eavesdropping on Death Eater meetings by hanging upside down from a > rafter or tree somewhere. I think he is the one LV refers to as > having left his service forever, the one who will "of course" be > killed. > > LV will have to catch him first. I firmly believe that Snape can > transform into a bat. > > Just my opinion, > Bohcoo I agree with both of you, however, may Snape have been there among the DE's?!?!?! There are DE's present but not mentioned in the graveyard scene. This is why so many questions about the three Voldemort doesn't mention. DeeDee From dfran at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 15 09:38:59 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:38:59 -0000 Subject: Who will be the traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyliemckenzie1225" wrote: > As much as it upsets me, I must say many have expressed convincing > arguments about Lupin...but I still hope he's a good guy. > > Deedee wrote: > > "It may well be DD...I could too easily imagine DD (esp. at the end of oop) selling out(emotionally and unintentionally) Harry because 'he thought it would improve Harry's quality of life'." > > > As I read what you wrote, Deedee, I was reminded of Dumbledore's > regret at placing Harry's happiness above the lives of others by > postponing giving Harry the whole truth. Could it be that > Dumbledore, in trying to avoid that mistake again, will sacrifice > Harry for the good of wizardkind? > > kylie The one aspect of this is Harry has been the one suffering the most through dd's efforts--especially the more that people meet and befriend Harry. In all, the Lupin and MOM battle sequence in OOP, how do we know it is not DD (in his ability to be invisible without a cloak) who killed Sirius rather than Bellatrix or Lupin?(it only takes a few seconds at most right?)??? There is too much cannon that signifies the good in Lupin for anyone to jump on the Evil Lupin band wagon right away. For all we know apperating may not make any sound at all(several times apparating makes different types of noises(Mundungus louder, dobby quieter, and DD/Volde. no sound at all)--depending on ones wizend powers--and voldemort killed Sirius to make Harry suffer more.(we hear neither DD nor Voldemort appearing or dissappearing in the battle scenes in the MOM) Those who are evil/bad...JK tends to give explanations all along the way. I think JK would show the journey--hence it would be a character we know more of.... The #1 candidate would be Percy as it would probably involve more than one person in the betrayal--and the betrayal would include one or more in the Weasley family. And I don't think it would be intentional. Besides I see "other" plans for Lupin almost done with my research. (want to make sure I'm on with cannon.) DeeDee From oppen at mycns.net Wed Oct 15 09:57:33 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 04:57:33 -0500 Subject: Has Dumbledore something in common with Lockhart? Message-ID: <032701c39302$c2449cc0$37560043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 82938 One thing that strikes me as I reread OotP is that Dumbledore may be coming to the end of a long time when he was basically able to coast along on his reputation. As "the wizard that defeated Grindelwald," he's seen as the natural leader against Voldemort---even though he apparently couldn't do much about V-mort, and only a fluke caused V-mort's downfall. It often happens that a leader who did well the last time around is the first person people turn to when a new danger arises, even if the new danger's different (we don't know very much about Grindelwald, do we?) and even if the old leader's greater age makes him less likely to be able to do anything effective. A case in point is the Crimean War, where many of the British generals had been very good leaders---in the Napoleonic wars which had ended decades before, and which had been fought with different weapons, against a different enemy, under different conditions. While Dumbledore is far more competent as a wizard than Lockhart, and has real accomplishments in his past, he may well have gotten rather past it in the years since Harry Potter lost his parents, and his judgement may have become faulty. Not to mention, his duelling skills may be rusty---he's _how_ much older and more experienced with magic than V-mort? I'd've expected him to roll right over V-mort in the Ministry like a King Tiger tank squashing a sand castle. Much as I despise her and wish that she'd fall madly in love with Grawp, Rita Skeeter may have been on to something when she called Dumbledore an "obsolete dingbat" in that article referred to in GoF. From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 11:12:13 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 04:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can JKR write dialogue? Her use of "Swifities" says "No." Message-ID: <20031015111213.38202.qmail@web40013.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82939 15Oct03 On 14October2003, Annemehr wrote: "...I *always* want to read Harry's line in a sort of strangled, or tight, voice, as if he can hardly bear to speak. My first interpretation is to have Harry speaking through pain, until the modifying phrase tells me he's speaking in anger. ..." >From Paula Gaon: Oh really, this seems to be splitting hairs. Why couldn't one speak through pain AND anger; especially a teenager who's been through the kind of esperiences that Harry has. Seems to me that JKR is just trying to convey to us the pain, anger and CONFUSION that Harry feels with the seemingly conflicting "modifying phrase". Paula "Griff" Gaon "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Wed Oct 15 11:18:06 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:18:06 -0400 Subject: COS clues Message-ID: <000601c3930e$01e0f0d0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 82940 Hello all! I've been thinking about this quote from JKR. "Key things happen in book two. No one knows how important those things are... yet. There's a lot in there. And I know how difficult it was to get it all in there without drawing too much attention to the clues." http://filmforce.ign.com/harrypotter/articles/377/377244p1.html?fromint=1 I know this has been talked about alot already, but here's my thought anyways. I think one of the things is Professor Lockhart and his memory loss. He knows alot of information. He's stolen many peoples memories. They told him their stories and then he wiped their memories of them. Now he's the only one who knows that information. I personally never thought we'd see Lockhart again, but there he was in OotP. He's in St. Mungo's and he's slowly recovering. What if he remembers some important piece of information? Didn't he know something about werewolf cures? There's a new werewolf at St. Mungo's. There's also the subject of his books. He put alot of those stolen stories in them. JKR made a point of having Molly reading one of them in those dreaded cleaning scenes. Maybe there's something in there. What was the point of all those cleaning scenes anyway? Obviously, there are clues in there (or at least I hope so, so I don't feel like she wasted all those pages on it). What do you think? Do you think Lockhart will prove useful after all? Joj From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Wed Oct 15 11:25:56 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:25:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Debt - Problem References: Message-ID: <001a01c3930f$1a294290$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 82941 sachmet96: in book 5 when he informed everyone that Harry gone, then when he went looking for him in the Forbidden Forest, Fred again: There is no canon to support that Snape went into the forest at all. All it says in the book is he *intended* to go look in the forest. ______________________________________________________________________ Joj: I find it very suspicious that we only have Snape's word for this (to Dumbledore). It's certainly possible that he did just that, but there's no proof. Since nobody saw this, it can't be a fact. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 12:36:18 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:36:18 -0000 Subject: what kind of story is HP? (was:Re: Who will betray the order) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82942 Laura: will there be a betrayal at all, and if so, why? Kneasy > > I'm obviously looking at potential plot developments from a very > different angle from your own viewing stance. > > Why must everything be a learning experience for Harry? This isn't > Pilgrim's Progress, you know. Or at least I hope it isn't. I've been looking forward to each new book as an exciting addition to an > epic tale, not as a sociological study in juvenile emotional growth. Sure, we are watching Harry grow up, but IMO that is to providesome continuity to the tale, not an end in itself. Laura again: You raise an interesting question-are the HP books a personal saga or an epic of a world in crisis? Can they be both? Given that JKR has titled the books around her central character, I'd argue that she sees them as being primarily about him. Since she places him in a world of her own creation, we inevitably learn a lot about that world and its situation, especially since Harry's personal challenges are reflected in those confronting the larger WW. But I'd contrast JKR's aims with those of, say, Tolkein, who wanted to create a true epic and didn't focus on any one character in particular. Of course, then the question arises, how should JKR proceed if the books are a personal saga vs what she should do if they're an epic about the WW? For one thing, I suppose if they were the latter, she could kill off Harry...but I sure hope she doesn't. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 13:02:11 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:02:11 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: Did Lupin Kill Sirius?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82943 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Up to the end of OOP, Harry thought his task was to live up to his father's legacy. The readers, well, this one anyway, have always suspected that Harry's task is actually to succeed where his father failed. James failed to catch the traitor, failed to save Lily, failed to keep his friends from turning to the Dark Side, failed to reconcile with Snape, failed to trust Dumbledore fully. Abigail > That's a very interesting idea, Pippin, and it answers a question that has been in the back of my mind since I read OOP. More > accurately, it bothered me that Snape now holds a grudge which he can never resolve against not one but two dead men. > > Snape has a great deal of unfinished business with the Marauders, and at the end of OOP, the last man who was in any position to resolve the situation was killed (I don't consider Lupin an active party in the discord, although Snape clearly does. He was obviously only a passive observer). This led to the uncomfortable conclusion that JKR might intend to leave Snape to fester in his anger for the rest of his life. > > Now you've suggested a more interesting possibility - Harry will not only learn from his father's mistakes, he will work to rectify them. The feud between Snape and the Marauders will be laid to rest by their collective son. Laura: Although you could both be right, I must say that I don't like the idea that Harry is somehow responsible for resolving the mistakes of the generation before his. Where do we get any canon that suggests Harry believes James was a failure? Being killed by LV hardly makes you a poor wizard. Failed to trust DD? Lots of credible reasons have been suggested for James *and Lily* to choose Sirius over DD. Failed to keep his friends from going over to LV? What was he supposed to do other than what he did? It was only one friend anyhow and the least close to James of the 3 Marauders. James was also conducting his own life-being a member of the Order, getting married and starting a family...he had every reason to continue to trust his friends and no time or reason to check up on them. Failed to reconcile with Snape? He saved the boy's life-what else did he need to do? Even if he had mixed motives, he risked his own life for someone who had caused him nothing but trouble. That should have been the end of it, if Snape were capable of looking past his own overly fragile ego. And as for Harry coming to terms with Snape as a representative of the Marauders-I don't know how JKR feels about it, but I don't think anyone can give forgiveness on anyone else's behalf, especially if the latter person is dead. That's the reason we aren't to let grudges linger-we never know when we might forever lose the chance to resolve them . Harry should not be responsible for the relationship Snape had with James and Sirius. And Snape shouldn't make him responsible. Snape has now put himself in a very difficult situation in terms of his unresolved anger-how is he to rid himself of it? Does he even want to? This is a man who is fueled by rage. Without that fuel, what would happen to him? Who and what would he be? Those are painful and very serious questions-but they're questions for Snape. Harry shouldn't have to carry that burden on top of his own. In fact, if anything, Snape has added one more person to his list of people from whom to seek forgiveness-and if he's smart, he'll ask Harry while they're both still around. I like the character of Snape, and I think he's acting for good and doing it out of principle (not for LOLLIPOPS). But he may just have to live with the fact that he's made mistakes that can't be rectified in this life. From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 13:17:48 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:17:48 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald Info? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82944 In searching for some clues about who the wizard Grindelwald might be, I came upon this passage. It refers to the uprisings and rebellions which occurred in the Swiss village of Grindelwald about 600 years ago: 1349: The valley's inhabitants challenge the monastic rule. In a petition dated 3rd January, 1349, the community of Grindelwald encompassing all of the L?tschinen valley, had formed an alliance with the inhabitants of Unterwalden to gain mutual support against the Interlaken monastery. The monastery, however, summoned help from the ruling body in Berne and the uprising was "nipped in the bud". The Wilderswil rebellion was stopped in a similar manner. On the 28th February, 1349 a letter ensued demanding that the inhabitants of Grindelwald renounce their alliance with Unterwalden and must once again submit to the rule of the monastery and its protecting power in the city of Berne. I don't really know if this is helpful, but it does seem to correlate somehow to the goblin rebellions (forming alliances and rising up against the WW?). Any ideas or more info? :: Entropy :: From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 13:37:23 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:37:23 -0000 Subject: A New Theory In-Reply-To: <028d01c392e6$1f7b1800$37560043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > An even more appealing clue was exposed by HP Super Sleuth Jane Clare. She > feels that if Harry was a more powerful wizard than Voldemort had realized, > that even as a baby, Harry may have had powers far greater than a normal > wizard. What if Voldemort were wrong, and it was not a rebounded curse? Yes! Yes! I love this theory! I had mentioned it earlier, in Post #79711: "Is it possible that it was not Voldemort's failed curse that caused the destruction of the Potter home? Could Harry himself have done this? It's possible that Harry is far more powerful than we (or Voldemort) have realized (what was it the prophecy says? a power he knows not?)... We find that just a bit of annoyance at Dudley (without any training or even the knowledge that he is a wizard), is enough to enable Harry to remove the snake's glass and make Dudley fall through." We still don't know what happened at Godric Hollow, and I'd bet anything that JKR is keeping us in suspense for good reason. Whatever happened there must be a whopper, and I'd say it's a good bet that it's not what we've been led to believe. I'm thinking that superwizard!Harry is as good a guess as any! And here's an interesting exchange: in what is perhaps a bit of JKR sneaky-clue-placing, Petunia and Harry have this conversation in SS (Chapter 2): "You could just leave me here, Harry put in hopefully.... Aunt Petunia looked as though she'd just swallowed a lemon. "And come back and find the house in ruins?" she snarled. "I won't blow up the house," said Harry... :: Entropy :: From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 15 13:54:05 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:54:05 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: Did Lupin Kill Sirius?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82946 > Abigail > > Now you've suggested a more interesting possibility - Harry will > not only learn from his father's mistakes, he will work to rectify > them. The feud between Snape and the Marauders will be laid to rest > by their collective son. > sachmet96 I do think Harry will learn not so much from his fathers mistakes but form his father's character flaws, which he has seen in the pensive. > Laura: > Failed > to reconcile with Snape? He saved the boy's life-what else did he > need to do? Even if he had mixed motives, he risked his own life > for someone who had caused him nothing but trouble. sachmet96: I don't think James risked his life. We should not forget he was an Animagus and werewolves don't kill Animagi. So if it got too dangerous he just had to transform into Prongs. So no danger at all for him, as he spend lots of time as Prongs with Lupin. He must have known that. The only one who didn't know was Snape, that's maybe the reason why he feels he owes a life debt when in fact he doesn't. > Laura: > And as for Harry coming to terms with Snape as a representative of > the Marauders-I don't know how JKR feels about it, but I don't think > anyone can give forgiveness on anyone else's behalf, especially if > the latter person is dead. sachmet96: I agree with that. I am still hoping that Snape and Lupin reconcile, because they are the only two left to do so. > Laura: > Snape has now put himself in a very difficult situation in terms of > his unresolved anger-how is he to rid himself of it? Does he even > want to? This is a man who is fueled by rage. Without that fuel, > what would happen to him? Who and what would he be? Those are > painful and very serious questions-but they're questions for Snape. sachmet96: I agree why should Snape let go of his rage. It wouldn't help him. He seemed to be perfectly 'happy' with his life before Harry started school, I suppose he could have been as soon as Harry left school again, but of course now there is Voldemort which makes things more difficult. > Laura: > Harry shouldn't have to carry that burden on top of his own. In > fact, if anything, Snape has added one more person to his list of > people from whom to seek forgiveness-and if he's smart, he'll ask > Harry while they're both still around. sachmet96: Why should Snape ask for forgiveness? I don't see how that can help or satisfy him. He doesn't strike me as the person who is concerned with what people think of him, so asking for forgiveness from anyone would make no difference to him imo. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Oct 15 14:38:07 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:38:07 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald Info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82947 --- "entropymail" wrote: (snipped = ...) > ...some clues about who the wizard Grindelwald might be, > ...uprisings and rebellions in the Swiss village of Grindelwald... > > 1349: The valley's inhabitants challenge the monastic rule. In a > petition dated 3rd January, 1349, the community of Grindelwald > ...had formed an alliance with the inhabitants of Unterwalden > ...against the Interlaken monastery. The monastery, however, > summoned help from the ruling body in Berne and the uprising was > "nipped in the bud". ...On the 28th February, 1349 a letter ensued > demanding that the inhabitants of Grindelwald renounce their > alliance with Unterwalden and must once again submit to the rule > of the monastery and its protecting power in the city of Berne. > > ...it does seem to correlate somehow to the goblin rebellions > (forming alliances and rising up against the WW?). Any ideas or > more info? > > :: Entropy :: (Does "Unterwalden" sound like "the Underworld" [Hades] to anyone else?) More information, but depends on JKR's knowledge of the period. There were a lot of dissatisfaction within the Catholic Church at that time. The French King had moved Pope Clement V from Rome to Avignon in Southern France. All religious decrees had to have the French king's approval, so there was a lot of room for corruption. That was from 1309 to 1377. Later, the Pope moved to the Vatican, but not before a lot of politics caused more suffering for the little people. Uprisings and protests finally gave birth to the Protestant movement - breaking away from the Catholic Church. If JKR based her information from the French perspective (because she taught in France before), Grindelwald may have appeared as the early beginnings of the insurrection that split the religious traditions of a millenium. Always remember that history is written by the victors, so the side that lost will be portrayed in the most corrupt way. Grindelwald may be viewed as the Devil's Advocate. ~aussie~ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 15 14:54:01 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:54:01 -0000 Subject: Life Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82948 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: > Thinking about it the whole concept of life debts is kind of > impractical. Everytime someone saves your life you owe a debt. What > about healers then? They constantly save lifes or Aurors? > Or what about Postion Masters (not only Snape) when they create > healing potions? Jen: All we really know about the debt is: "Pettigrew owes his life to you...When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them.." (POA, US, chap. 22, p.427). Like sachmet said, it would be incredibly complicated to keep up with all the life debts in the WW if a bond is created in every instance! The only two canon incidents we know for sure inspired life debts are: 1)James stopping Snape from entering the tunnel and 2)Harry stopping Lupin/Sirius from killing Wormtail. Both are acts of mercy *granted* to an enemy. I wonder if there's more to the life debt than DD elaborated on at the time. He calls it "magic at its deepest, most impenetrable" later on, which indicates the debt probably doesn't happen everyday. Perhaps it has something to do with risking your own life to save someone, whether they are an enemy or not. It just seems like there's more to it. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 15 15:00:28 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:00:28 -0000 Subject: Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" SNIP Thinking about it the whole concept of life debts is kind of impractical. Everytime someone saves your life you owe a debt. What about healers then? They constantly save lifes or Aurors? Or what about Postion Masters (not only Snape) when they create healing potions? sachmet96 ARYA NOW: I kind of think of a life debt as where one person either grants life when death is eminent(Peter)-- as in granting mercy or if one's risked their life to save someone (Harry with Ginny in CoS). Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 15 15:08:32 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:08:32 -0000 Subject: Life Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82950 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: >The only two canon incidents we know for sure inspired life debts are: 1)James stopping Snape from entering the tunnel and 2)Harry stopping Lupin/Sirius from killing Wormtail. Both are acts of mercy *granted* to an enemy. I wonder if there's more to the life debt than DD elaborated on at the time. He calls it "magic at its deepest, most impenetrable" later on, which indicates the debt probably doesn't happen everyday. ---------------------------- ARYA: I don't have the books here at work, but I think in PS when Harry asked why Snape tried to save him, all Dumbledore said was he was trying to make up for sometime when JAmes saved his life. In PoA, Lupin, I believe later tells the story of The Prank and how James saved Snape. (Which, by the way....if Snape saw Lupin the Werewolf and knew the other Maurauders were able to be around him and James was that close, wouldn't he just possibly have seen or guessed-- especially if he saw one animal there--that they were animagi? I know it's rare and all , but Snape is so nosy...anyway) ------------------------------- Jen Reese, again: Perhaps it has something to do with risking your own life to save someone, whether they are an enemy or not. It just seems like there's more to it. ------------------------------ ARYA: This is exactly what I think it is. I think there's an honor thing--like a magically binding contract that goes into effect if someone knowingly puts him or herself at risk to save another from eminent death. Hmm, maybe Harry owes one to Petunia.... ------------------------------ From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 15:11:49 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:11:49 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald Info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > --- "entropymail" wrote: (snipped = ...) > > (Does "Unterwalden" sound like "the Underworld" [Hades] to anyone > else?) "Grindel Walde" translates to "Standard Forest" in English; "Unter Walde" translates to "Under Forest" in English. :: Entropy :: From rredordead at aol.com Wed Oct 15 15:26:14 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:26:14 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82952 Right now I believe that it's just a rumor. Keep in mind that interest in HP is so intense, that whenever JKR makes a statement in reference to the saga (especially Book 6) it will become headline news in the UK and US. Whoever is lucky enough to scoop any information will shout it out loud. So right now I would take this statement with a grain of salt. Becides minimal injuries can mean anything...banging his head as he falls off his broom during Quiddich practice, a punch from Dudley and/or Drago, being hugged too tight by Hagrid.....the list could go on and on. ;-) Mandy From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 15 15:35:20 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:35:20 -0000 Subject: Life Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82953 > ARYA: I don't have the books here at work, but I think in PS when > Harry asked why Snape tried to save him, all Dumbledore said was he > was trying to make up for sometime when JAmes saved his life. In > PoA, Lupin, I believe later tells the story of The Prank and how > James saved Snape. (Which, by the way....if Snape saw Lupin the > Werewolf and knew the other Maurauders were able to be around him and > James was that close, wouldn't he just possibly have seen or guessed-- > especially if he saw one animal there--that they were animagi? I know > it's rare and all , but Snape is so nosy...anyway) ~~~ sachmet96 Maybe there was another time when James saved Snape's life. Because as I pointed out in message 82946 as a response to Laura: (oh, I am starting citing myself :-)) --- > Laura: > Failed > to reconcile with Snape? He saved the boy's life-what else did he > need to do? Even if he had mixed motives, he risked his own life > for someone who had caused him nothing but trouble. sachmet96: I don't think James risked his life. We should not forget he was an Animagus and werewolves don't kill Animagi. So if it got too dangerous he just had to transform into Prongs. So no danger at all for him, as he spend lots of time as Prongs with Lupin. He must have known that. The only one who didn't know was Snape, that's maybe the reason why he feels he owes a life debt when in fact he doesn't. --- So imo this means that if James was not in danger he didn't risk his life and therefore there is no lifedebt if we assume a lifedebt can only be formed when there is danger to both person's lifes. Then there must have been another incident where James saved Snape's life, else it wouldn't make sense. If that's not the case, the whole concept of life debts gets really complicated .... ~~~~ > ------------------------------- > Jen Reese, again: > Perhaps it has something to do with risking your own life to save > someone, whether they are an enemy or not. It just seems like there's > more to it. > > ------------------------------ > ARYA: This is exactly what I think it is. I think there's an honor > thing--like a magically binding contract that goes into effect if > someone knowingly puts him or herself at risk to save another from > eminent death. Hmm, maybe Harry owes one to Petunia.... sachmet96 And Dudley owes one to Harry, because he saved him from the Dementors. I wonder if Muggles can owe a life debt. From oiboyz at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 14:38:58 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:38:58 -0000 Subject: Only Lving Relative... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > So, I agree with everyone that Mark Evans is a very significant > character, and will concede that they might share common ancestors; > but, give that, I will add that I don't see that as any conflict in > the statement by Dumbledore that Petunia is Harry's only living relative. I hope my early-morning logic has analysed this correctly. :) True, it's possible for Mark and Lily to have the same last name but be so distantly related that for all intents and purposes, they're not related at all. But in that case, what's the point of even having them be third cousins once removed or whatever they are? You lose the impact of Mark and Harry being related if you make it that distant. If Mark is going to be Harry's cousin, then the simplest way out of this predicament is to say that Dumbledore just didn't know about Mark's branch of the family when he made his "only living relative" remark. That strikes me as quite plausible, since Lily is from a family of Muggles (so the wizarding world wouldn't have had a reason to keep close tabs on them). From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Wed Oct 15 14:30:17 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (mikaelraaterova) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:30:17 -0000 Subject: Wizarding numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82955 [This is my first post here. Please be gentle...] I've been thinking a bit about the number of wizards, and the posts I found when I searched to see what people had already come up with weren't satisfying. To calculate the size of the wizarding population from the number of students at Hogwarts, we need to know (at least) three parametres: the age distribution of wizards, the fraction of muggle-born students, and Hogwarts attendance. - The age distribution among wizards. While they seem to be able to live pretty long (Dumbledore is 150, and Mrs. Marchbanks should thus be even older), they also seem to live violent or at least risky lives. I'll assume that the wizarding world has a pretty high mean age comparable to Sweden, for which I have data. Children aged 0-10 make up 12 % of the pop, ages 11-17 make up 9 % and ages 18+ make up the rest. - The fraction of muggle-borns (the parents of muggle-born students don't add to the wizard population, while their children do). In PS/SS, "Harry was very relieved to find out that he wasn't miles behind everyone else. Lots of people had come from Muggle families and, like him, hadn't had any idea that they were witches and wizards" (p. 101, Bloomsbury pbk). So, a pretty big fraction then. Let's assume 50 % for simplicity. This seems a bit too high, but OTOH that will compensate for the number of halfblood students; they only have one parent adding to the wizard pop. - Hogwarts attendance. GoF says that Hogwarts, Durmstrang and Beauxbatons are the *largest* schools in Europe, implying that there are small schools as well. So, there may be local schools (and home schoolers!) that absorb a fraction of the students within Hogwarts' "drainage basin" that would otherwise go to Hogwarts. The larger the fraction of non-hogwarts children, the larger the maximum population of wizards is. So I assume 50 % to not underestimate the pop size. So, 500 students at Hogwarts have wizarding parents. Add 500 non- Hogwarts wizard children not attending Hogwarts. These 1 000 students make up 9 % of the wizard pop within Hogwarts "drainage basin" for a total of about 10 000 (of which about 2 000 are non-adults; thus 8 000 adult wizards and witches). To this must be added the 500 muggle- born students. I'll note that there is also about 500 muggle-born children with magical talent that will in time attend Hogwarts, but I wouldn't count them to the wizard pop, since they don't know of the wizarding world yet. Another question is 10 500 wizards and wizards-to-be for how many muggles? Given the names of known Hogwarts people, I'd say that Hogwarts cover the british isles (UK and Ireland) which has a pop of 64 million people. So, one adult wizard or witch per 8 000 muggles. If the proportion of wizards to muggles is the same the world over, then the global wizard pop is about 1 million. Thoughts and comments? / Mikael From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 12:21:40 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Has Dumbledore something in common with Lockhart? Message-ID: <20031015122140.5503.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82956 On 15Oct03, Eric Oppen wrote: "One thing that strikes me as I reread OotP is that Dumbledore may be coming to the end of a long time when he was basically able to coast along on his reputation.... and his judgement may have become faulty. ...Rita Skeeter may have been on to something when she called Dumbledore an "obsolete ding bat" in that article referred to in GoF." Granny responds: Oh really, please! A little justice here. I'm not prepared to give Rita Skeeter one bit of credit. Dumbledore says himself at the end of OoP, page 728, Bloomsbury Edition: "For I see now that what I have done, and not done, with regards to you bears all the hallmarks of the failings of age. Youth can not know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young... and I seem to have forgotten lately..." >From DD's words, it's quite obvious that he knows and admits that no one can coast on his reputation. This is not the admission of an "obsolete ding bat", rather, a wise and good man coming to the realizarion that we all reach our peak and must face decline. But obsolete? Really! Wisdom is never obsolete. I prefer to see Rita as the ding bat since she has spread nothing but useless hype, misunderstanding, and discord. Granny --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 11:08:30 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 04:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How Did McGonagall know? Message-ID: <20031015110830.48653.qmail@web20713.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82957 15October2003 On 14October2003 Bohcoo wrote: "...When Hermoine made that comment (regarding the Ministry's intention to interfer at Hogwarts) to Harry, it was during the continuation of the speech Dumbledore had been making when interrupted by Umbridge. All the teachers where still sitting at the top table, listening to Dumbledore complete his welcome to the students. There is no way on earth she could have overheard Hermoine's quiet statements to Harry at the Griffendor table. So. How did she know what Hermoine said to Harry?" Granny responds: I wondered the same thing. But decided that McGonnagall is a keen witted, veteran Hogwarts teacher who knew by Umbridge's very presence at Howgarts that the Ministry intended to interfer. She would not have needed to hear Hermione's remarks to deduce what was going on. It seems reasonable to assume that McGonagall has been around long enough and seen enough of the politics in the WW that she'd be able to accurately surmise what's going on. (Remember Umbridge's "Um, um" and the reaction of those present when she dared interupt Dumbledore?) I even imagined that Umbridge has already established a reputation for herself in the WW. All this brings me to another point. Throughout OoP, the antipathy between the 2 women is more than obvious; and don't forget what befell McGonagall at the end. I for one am convinced that more is to be revealed in future canon, that is , we shall see the plot thicken regarding the probable part -Goblin Umbridgeand her history at the Ministry. Anyone out there pick up any hints in canon as to what this could be? It would be interesting to hear. Granny --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lovelymelody at oreka.com Wed Oct 15 10:53:24 2003 From: lovelymelody at oreka.com (vesper_vane) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:53:24 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order/Pippin you've done it again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82958 >Doxy: >I'm not going to try and convince any of you Lupin lovers that >he >is ESE or a killer, because it looks like you cannot be swayed. >But >I don't see how, with all the evidence that points in that >direction, >you can still call him a *decent* person. Lupin has >deliberately put >thousands of lives in danger over the years, he has betrayed >Dumbledore's trust, and he quite possibly betrayed the trust of >his >closest schoolmates. He must have done something for them to >not even >consider him for the secret keeper job. (Side note: Why is >Lupin's >name so conspicuously absent during the discussion between >McGonagall, >Flitwick, Hagrid, & Fudge at the 3 broomsticks? He doesn't >even get >an honorable mention. He was working at the school, it's not >like they >could have just forgotten about him.) Vesper: I can tell you why his name wasn't mentioned at this moment:it's for the PLOT! At this moment,when Harry hears this conversation,the big revelation is that Sirius Black was his father's best friend.Then LATER in the book,the second revelation is that Remus was also James' friend.If Remus' name was mentioned in the conversation at the three broomsticks,it would kind of ruin the story and we would immediately know that something is going on with Remus,why Snape hates him,etc...Everything cannot be revealed all at once.We have to wait the end of the book to learn that Remus and Sirius were also (very) close friends (cos til then Remus never tells that he was Sirius friend,he just admits that he knew him (or thought he knew him)). Vesper,who'll never believe in ESE!Lupin (do you really think JKR would make one of her fav character turn into a cold blooded murderer?) From strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 15 16:57:21 2003 From: strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:57:21 -0000 Subject: Life Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: (Major snipping) ......Dudley owes one to Harry, because he saved him from the > Dementors. I wonder if Muggles can owe a life debt. lolita now.... imho being dead and being left without a soul are two entirely different things, so Dudley wouldnt owe Harry a life debt because there was Harry didn't save dudley's *life*, but he did save his soul. Off the top of my head I don't know if there is any canon supporting the argument that they are the same thing, but I don't think there is. Indeed, there have been numerous instances where the difference has been alluded to. Not having the books with me, I can't cite anything. but it is there... From dcgrasso1 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 17:32:59 2003 From: dcgrasso1 at yahoo.com (Dori Grasso) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: <1066182877.8596.63340.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20031015173259.61252.qmail@web14713.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82960 "miss_america_03" wrote: "I specifically remember that Wormtail is in debt to Harry, and in every book that I've read since then I always wonder how/when that will play out. I hope she doesn't forget that she put that in and just leaves her readers wondering forever..!" Oh, I think the answer to that is pretty obvious. Somehow that silver hand will play a role in defeating Lord Thingy in book 7. Maybe it'll strangle LV, or hold him down for Harry to administer the final blow, or something. But it WILL be used in the final Harry/LV confrontation, to Harry's benefit. In fact, it'll be essential for Harry to use to defeat LV. (Yes, I know there are people who think the final outcome is in question. Keeping in mind that the entire story is written for children, however, I find it impossible to believe that Harry doesn't survive the series with a nice normal wizard life ahead of him!) Dori __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 18:15:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:15:28 -0000 Subject: Only Living Relative... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "Steve" wrote: > > Let's say for a moment that my name is Harry Potter and my > > mother's name is Lily Evans. > > > > ...edited... > > > > Then this daughter marries a guy name Trout, and they have a > > daughter .... This daughter then marries a guy named Evans and > > they have a son named Mark, ... > > > > Let us now assume that if you trace Mr. Evan family tree back > > through many generation, it intersects at some distant point with > > the Lily Evans family tree. > > > > Are Mark Evans and I related, or are we total strangers? > > > > For all intent and purpose, we are total strangers. > > > > ...edited... > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > Arya replied: > > There's a slight problem with this: Dumbledore NEVER says "only > living relative", he SAYS: > > "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. "They're the only > family he has left now." (US paperback, p13) > > ...edited... > > Arya bboy_mn: I think when I imagined this, it was Harry who was saying '...only living relative...'. Although, for the life of me, I can't remember where I thought I read that. In any event, my main point was that people seem determined to make a direct close family connection between Mark and Harry, and thereby implying that the presents of this direct family connection contradicts the statement that the Dursleys are Harry only's family, so I'm trying to point out that both can be true. Harry and Mark can share a common ancestry without being even remotely considered family. Their family ties are distant enough that Harry could marry Mark's older sister, assuming Mark had an older sister. So while they might share this common ancestry, it is insignificant enough that they could marry without hesitation. The ancestral bond may be there but the 'family' bond has been lost for generations. In the event that I was orphaned, I seriously doubt that any Bakkans would consider our share ancestry significant enough to make my care and up brining their responsibility. That's the point I was trying to make. That Harry and Mark could share a distant common ancestry without being considered family. Although, if Mark does turn out to be a wizard, especially if they can trace some common ancestry, I think this will be very nice for Harry. He will have someone, that he could by some stretch consider family who is actually nice to him. Almost like having a little brother. Just a thought. bboy_mn From amani at charter.net Wed Oct 15 18:23:01 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:23:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unfinished Business (was: Did Lupin Kill Sirius?) References: Message-ID: <009301c39349$5e2b5660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82962 sachmet96: I don't think James risked his life. We should not forget he was an Animagus and werewolves don't kill Animagi. So if it got too dangerous he just had to transform into Prongs. So no danger at all for him, as he spend lots of time as Prongs with Lupin. He must have known that. The only one who didn't know was Snape, that's maybe the reason why he feels he owes a life debt when in fact he doesn't. Taryn: Wait, wait, wait. Since when do werewolves not kill Animagi? They can't turn them into werewolves while in Animagi form, true. And we do know that Lupin was "calmer" in a sense with James and Sirius around, but we also know that James and Sirius's physically large Animagi form helped them to keep Lupin under control. James definitely was in much LESS danger than Snape, but he wasn't perfectly safe. But that's the whole point--Sirius and James weren't absolutely safe with Remus, but he was their friend and they cared enough for him to risk their health. Unfortunately, my copy of PoA is with a friend at the moment, so I may be missing something (besides quotes for my points). ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Oct 15 18:27:54 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:27:54 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: Did Lupin Kill Sirius?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: > > > Laura: > > Snape has now put himself in a very difficult situation in terms of > > his unresolved anger-how is he to rid himself of it? Does he even > > want to? This is a man who is fueled by rage. Without that fuel, > > what would happen to him? Who and what would he be? Those are > > painful and very serious questions-but they're questions for > Snape. > > sachmet96: > I agree why should Snape let go of his rage. It wouldn't help him. He > seemed to be perfectly 'happy' with his life before Harry started > school, I suppose he could have been as soon as Harry left school > again, but of course now there is Voldemort which makes things more > difficult. > Oh dear. Snape on an anger management course? That brings a smile to the lips. You can just imagine him sneering at a be-spectacled, bearded, sandal- wearing counselor. Ole Sevvy is anger driven; it is his essence, his being, his reason and his comfort. Take it away and nothing is left but a shell waiting for the undertakers. This modern predeliction for 'ridding' people of 'unhealthy' attitudes is understandable for society but not satisfactory for the individual. Something has made Snape very angry indeed; he wants restitution, justice, the scales balanced. That's as it should be. Telling someone that their justifiable emotions are to be deplored is to deprive them of their individuality in the name of mass narcolepsis. Action and reaction should be equal and opposite, not only in physics but also in righting wrongs. In our world the state claims the right of retribution, but how often is it commensurate with the crime? Rarely, IMO. For Snape in the WW who would he turn to for just retribution? Fudge? Like many others, I think Snape will die, but he will die in his attempt to make right the wrongs done to him; that's noble in a way and is an acceptable literary (and film) device. I realise that (yet again!) Kneasy will be classed as at one with the barbaric and anti-social. So be it. While not an adherent myself, the Mosaic tenet of 'An eye for an eye' has a long and distinguished record, forgiving transgressors gives them the opportunity to do it again. Not an optimum solution. Come on! Give him a cheer as he slices his enemy to bits! For those that can bear it, read post 69509 - 'Snape, a very good hater.' Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Oct 15 18:33:15 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:33:15 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Becides minimal injuries can mean anything...banging his head as he > falls off his broom during Quiddich practice, a punch from Dudley > and/or Drago, being hugged too tight by Hagrid.....the list could go > on and on. ;-) > > Mandy Can the loss of a leg be considered minimal? I fancy Harry having a wooden one made from the Whomping Willow. One twitch and Draco is the last of the Malfoys. Kneasy From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 15 18:44:01 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:44:01 -0000 Subject: what kind of story is HP? (was:Re: Who will betray the order) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura: > will there be a betrayal at all, and if so, why? > > Kneasy > > > > I'm obviously looking at potential plot developments from a very different angle from your own viewing stance. > > > > Why must everything be a learning experience for Harry? > Laura again: > > You raise an interesting question-are the HP books a personal saga or an epic of a world in crisis? Can they be both? Given that JKR has titled the books around her central character, I'd argue that she sees them as being primarily about him.<< So, um, "Beowulf" is not an epic? What about the "Odyssey" and the "Aeneid"? Tale tellers have always centered their stories of a land in crisis around the efforts of a brave hero to put things right. Actually, though, I think the genre is child exile. These are some of the oldest stories recorded in English. The child exile is a young boy who is alienated from home and inheritance in a land where he has no social position. He must establish his personal identity and win back what has been taken from him by natural strength and personal virtue. The story always begins with the fall of the father brought about by an invasion from outside the kingdom and treacherous individuals within. Since treachery is the ultimate threat to a society built on oaths and obligations, it was the foremost threat to the medieval hero. The archaic wizarding world, with life-debts taking the place of the medieval oaths, harks back to the age of chivalry and sets up the expectation of treachery. The modern hero is more likely to suffer from alienation, as Harry does in OOP. Harry's task is two-fold, I think. He has to win the battle against treachery that the last generation lost, and he has to win his own struggle by not remaining alienated. Rowling has neatly tied these threads together by setting up the expectation that if Harry alienates his friends, they will betray him. Pippin who doesn't think Harry will be killed off From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 15 18:46:19 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:46:19 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: Did Lupin Kill Sirius?) In-Reply-To: <009301c39349$5e2b5660$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82966 > sachmet96: > I don't think James risked his life. We should not forget he was an > Animagus and werewolves don't kill Animagi. So if it got too > dangerous he just had to transform into Prongs. So no danger at all > for him, as he spend lots of time as Prongs with Lupin. He must have > known that. The only one who didn't know was Snape, that's maybe the > reason why he feels he owes a life debt when in fact he doesn't. > > Taryn: > Wait, wait, wait. Since when do werewolves not kill Animagi? They can't turn them into werewolves while in Animagi form, true. And we do know that Lupin was "calmer" in a sense with James and Sirius around, but we also know that James and Sirius's physically large Animagi form helped them to keep Lupin under control. James definitely was in much LESS danger than Snape, but he wasn't perfectly safe. But that's the whole point--Sirius and James weren't absolutely safe with Remus, but he was their friend and they cared enough for him to risk their health. sachmet96 Well, Hermione says in PoA UK 382: "What if you'd given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?" I took that statement that he wouldn't bit the Animagi but only other people. James and Sirius were large enough to keep Lupin under control when that happened. I am not sure if it is a general rule that werewolves don't kill all Animagi, but it seems to be true for his 3 friends. So James was in no danger (and even if Lupin attacked him, which I doubt, he knew he could keep him down). From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Wed Oct 15 19:03:44 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:03:44 +1300 Subject: Snape and spying Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031016080159.00a25d80@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82967 Thinking about this whole deal. Snape is in a rather interesting position if he is actively spying, attending DE meetings. LV will definitely know where he works, and being employed by Dumbledore. The pressure then would go on Snape to provide information that LV could use. My suggestion is, that in this case, in order to keep his cover intact, he would have to come up with the goods so to speak. I can only assume that any 'leaks' he provides have been vetted by Dumbledore. I know everyone is hooded, but LV seems to know who each is under the masks so a disguise wouldn't probably work. Tanya From alison.williams at virgin.net Wed Oct 15 19:35:33 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison Williams) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:35:33 +0100 Subject: a lurker speaks - Snape's bias Message-ID: <005201c39353$80baf2d0$f0936751@yourq7fwqx3ncp> No: HPFGUIDX 82968 I've just finished re-re-reading OoP and some things struck me this time (as either sad or funny or significant) that didn't before. Apologies if they've been discussed in depth in a batch of posts I missed (I can't keep up!). Chapter 15 - "'Reparo,' Harry muttered, pointing his wand at the broken pieces of china. They flew back together, good as new, but there was no returning the Murtlap essence to the bowl." Irreversable loss is such a strong theme and this is such a wonderfully understated image for it and for the limits of magic. Especially as Murtlap essence is used to sooth pain. Chapter 20 - "Harry looked right back, an expression of innocent determination on his face." Because this so perfectly sums up Harry. Chapter 21 - "'You're a r-really good teacher, you know,' said Cho, with a watery smile. 'I've never been able to Stun anything before." What - not even Cedric? But this is the one that seems to me to have some potentially serious implications for future developments. Chapter 24 - "Snape had struck before Harry was ready, before he had even begun to summon any force of resistance. The office swam in front of his eyes and vanished; image after image was racing through his mind like a flickering film so vivid it blinded him to his surroundings. He was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle, and his heart was bursting with jealousy: he was nine, and Ripper the bulldog was chasing him up a tree and the Dursleys were laughing below on the lawn: he was sitting under the Sorting Hat, and it was telling him he would do well in Slytherin: " [My emphasis.] Knowing how JKR likes to note significant things in a casual mention that you overlook, until it hits you on a later reading, I tend to study this sort of passage with suspicion. Snake woundn't have known that the Sorting Hat seriously considered putting Harry in Slytherin. Harry has very deliberately never told anyone except Dumbledore, and I can't see Dumbledore betraying such a confidence. How might this effect Snape's attitude to him? Given his outrageous bias towards the members of Slytherin House might it draw out - eventually - some grudging respect to know that the Hat was of the opinion that Harry 'would have done well in Slytherin'? Going back into lurkdom now. Alison [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 15 20:15:05 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:15:05 -0000 Subject: Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: > I don't think Snape owes Harry a life debt, the debt was to his > father. In fact Snape saved Harry's life so Harry owes a life debt to > him imo. Actually Harry did save Snape's life (or rather soul) in PoA when he produced the Patronus that chased away the dementors at the end of the book. Snape was unconscious at the time, so I don't think he knows about that. If we count that incident then Ron and Hermione also owe him their life/souls. Salit (who has no idea if that constitutes a life debt but certainly merits a "thank you" note :-)) From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 20:17:45 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:17:45 -0000 Subject: close reading of DoM scene (was:Re: Pippin, you've done it again! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82970 > OOP pg 805 --- "Only one couple was were still battling.... Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest." Laura: When we were talking about the prophecy, I argued that JKR doesn't twist the plain meanings of words. She uses misdirection, foreshadowing, red herrings-but they're all plot devices, not grammatical or denotational alterations. So when she refers to a second jet of light, there must be a first, and since no one else is fighting at that moment, the only jet of light that could be the second one is the one Sirius just ducked-the one from Bellatrix. From raps29 at aol.com Wed Oct 15 17:58:05 2003 From: raps29 at aol.com (raps029) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:58:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82971 > Q4: Petunia says that she overheard "that awful boy" telling Lily > about Dementors years ago -- James? Snape? Someone else? What might > the circumstances have been that Petunia was able to overhear this; > were they at Lily and Petunia's home where they lived with their > parents? Why was this person telling Lily about Dementors and > Azkaban? Harry assumes Petunia just happens to remember this scrap of > info from years ago, but how likely is it that Petunia only > knows "scraps" of information about the Wizarding World? > I think that Lily and Petunia's parents were killed by wizards. James told them that the criminals would be caught and sent to Azkaban and guarded by dementors. This is why Petunia hates anything to do with magic; she blames Lily for the death of their parents. Ruth From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 20:35:41 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:35:41 -0000 Subject: Only Lving Relative... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Let's say for a moment that my name is Harry Potter and my mother's > name is Lily Evans. > > Additionally, let's assume that my great great grandfather had one son > and one daughter; the son being my great grandfather. > > So the daughter marries a guy named Fish and they have a daughter; > making that daughter first cousin to my great grandfather. Richard here, apologizing in advance for pointing out a nit or two .... Your count of "cousinship" is a little off. GGGF / \ / \ fish+d GGF | | carp+d GF | | trout+d F | | Evans+d Harry Potter (me, for this discusson) | Mark Evans First off, the daughter of Carp and my great-great-grandfather's daughter is my great-grandfathers NIECE, not his cousin. She IS my grandfather's first cousin, though, so your count is off by one. Further, there is one extra layer in the Mark Evans linage back to my great-great-grandfather (GGGF), which means that my GGGF is Mark's great-great-great-grandfather. This also means that Mark and I are third cousins, once removed, not fourth cousins, or simple third cousins. > Let us now assume that if you trace Mr. Evan family tree back through > many generation, it intersects at some distant point with the Lily > Evans family tree. > > Are Mark Evans and I related, or are we total strangers? > > For all intent and purpose, we are total strangers. The only reason > I know him at all is because he lives in my neighborhood. Richard again: In ethnology (the study of cultures), 'family' is limited in meaning to some relatively (no pun intended) immediate set of relations. There is immediate family (parents and siblings) and extended family (generally grandparents or great-grandparents (whatever the oldest living ancestors are), and their descendants, for example) ... often with some expectation of proximity, such as living together, or living in the same small community. Because our family trees TEND to diverge upward, as well as downward, your cousin may be a member of your extended family, yet both you and your cousin will generally have family members who are NOT SHARED. Once you get past extended family, you have other terms, such as clan. All members of the same clan are related (even if only by "law" in marrying into the clan), but they are not all "family," even if they are blood relations. So, I agree with your interpretation of "only family" not being in conflict with a potential blood relationship between Harry and Mark Evans. It is linguistically, genealogically and ethnologically "legit" for this to be the case. Richard, whose studies in anthropology and ethnology sometimes get the better of him. From jayandjay22 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 18:15:13 2003 From: jayandjay22 at hotmail.com (fourjays22) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:15:13 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor Staircase Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82973 Standard newbie disclaimer -- I was unable to find anything about this in my search, and I apologize if it has already been discussed. I was curious what role (if any) people think the Gryffindor staircase might play in books six and seven. I'm referring to the bewitched girls staircase we learn about in OoP that doesn't allow boys to ascend because they (boys) were at one time thought to be untrustworthy. I've been wondering if all the boys' staircases in the four houses were bewitched? If so, is this common knowledge? Could this be a key location of some sort of final battle if/when LV enters Hogwarts? If people (specifically Death Eaters) are generally unaware the staircase is bewitched, it could make the girls' dormitories a remarkable hideout, esp. since Bellatrix (and Narcissa perhaps as well?) seem to be the only active female death eaters -- the girls' dorm could be a foolproof way to deter LV. We (the readers) have spent a lot of time with Harry in the boys' dorm, but we know little of the girls' dorm. I sense this is a detail that may be important in later books. The staircase also made me think about Rowling's take on sexism in the books. Clearly, her focus is primarily on racism/prejudice, but I think she's made some hints that the Slytherins/Death Eaters (I know the two groups are not interchangeable) types are sexist as well. I'm thinking about the fact that there are no girls on the Slytherin Quidditch team (JKR says this specifically and I don't think this is a throwaway line), eg, and the fact that the Death Eaters are primarily male, while the Order, by contrast has a large number of females. And of course, the Gryffindor Quidditch team is almost half female. Obviously, there are plenty of girls in Slytherin house, so it's not as clear cut as the Slytherin's dislike of Mudbloods, but I've thought that JKR might be making a point that the strength of Gryffindor and the Order lies not just in their embrace of non-100% wizarding folk, but in the full integration of women and men into the ranks. The staircase is kind of a "reverse sexist" institution, based on a stereotype of boys, and I wonder if this theme will come into play in the later books, perhaps a bit more overtly. So, thoughts on the role of the bewitched staircase or Slytherin sexism? Julie From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 18:19:30 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:19:30 -0000 Subject: who will betray the Order/Why will there be a traitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vesper_vane" wrote: > >Doxy: > > >I'm not going to try and convince any of you Lupin lovers that >he > >is ESE or a killer, because it looks like you cannot be swayed. >But > >I don't see how, with all the evidence that points in that > >direction, > >you can still call him a *decent* person. Can I just ask, and maybe this was posted before but I couldn't find it, why does everyone seem to think that there will be someone who will betray the Order to LV? Is there a cannon reference that I am missing? Or did JKR metion it in an interview that I didn't read? Or is it just speculation? Also, why is everyone so desperate to make Lupin the bad guy/possible traiotr? Has he been anything but loyal to Dumbledore and Hogwarts? Has he ever intentionally put someone in danger from his werewolfishness? And, aside from a few minor infractions when he was a 15-year-old idiot, has he ever intentionally acted irresponsibly about his condition in his adult life? He kept it a secret for the same reason that Hagrid hid his mother's true identity, violent predjudice against anyone with mixed blood or, in Lupin's case, lycanthropy. To have Lupin join the fight on LV's side with the DE's would have him betray not only Harry, but also Dumbledore, the only wizard who showed him any compassion. That's a major character change, and IMHO, I don't think it will happen. Meri (who mourns Sirius and Cedric to this day) From marcuscason at charter.net Wed Oct 15 19:51:24 2003 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:51:24 -0000 Subject: Life Debt - Problem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82975 sachmet96: I don't think James risked his life. We should not forget he was an Animagus and werewolves don't kill Animagi. So if it got too dangerous he just had to transform into Prongs. So no danger at all for him, as he spend lots of time as Prongs with Lupin. He must have known that. The only one who didn't know was Snape, that's maybe the reason why he feels he owes a life debt when in fact he doesn't. --- So imo this means that if James was not in danger he didn't risk his life and therefore there is no lifedebt if we assume a lifedebt can only be formed when there is danger to both person's lifes. Then there must have been another incident where James saved Snape's life, else it wouldn't make sense. If that's not the case, the whole concept of life debts gets really complicated .... -------------------------------- Kyntor said: Harry was not in danger when he asked Sirius and Lupin to spare Wormtail's (and according to Dumbledore, the life debt was made between Harry and Peter), so it is quite possible that Snape did owe a life debt to James. Life debts do seem to be very complicated. They may only work when a person saves an enemy or someone that they have no reason to save. Personally, I don't think a life bond can be created when you do as you are suppose to do; such as save the life of someone you are suppose to look after (i.e. student, child, etc.) or save the life of a good friend. I think that it is only when you step outside of the bounds of what is expected of you can a life debt be created. Kyntor From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 21:06:02 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:06:02 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor Staircase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fourjays22" wrote: > Standard newbie disclaimer -- I was unable to find anything about > this in my search, and I apologize if it has already been discussed. > > I was curious what role (if any) people think the Gryffindor > staircase might play in books six and seven. I'm referring to the > bewitched girls staircase we learn about in OoP that doesn't allow > boys to ascend because they (boys) were at one time thought to be > untrustworthy. I've been wondering if all the boys' staircases in > the four houses were bewitched? Richard here: The boys' staircase in Gryffindor is NOT bewitched, as evidenced by the dialog that follows the boys' attempt to visit Hermione in the girls' tower. The point out that Hermione was able to visit their dormitory, but that they could not visit her in the girls' dorm. Hermione then points out the historical mistrust of boys. > If so, is this common knowledge? Richard again: Obviously not, if the neither Harry nor Ron was ready for what happened. > Could this be a key location of some sort of final battle if/when > LV enters Hogwarts? Richard again: Doubtful, but not impossible. Remember, we are dealing with a magical realm, and the inability to walk up stairs is not a major impediment. A wizard or witch could as easily FLY to the appropriate room as walk, as evidenced by the escape of Sirius at the end of PoA. Therefore, I think those stairs are more an inconvenience than a real impediment. Their primary advantage as a defense is in the warning they give, not the obstacle they represent. > The staircase also made me think about Rowling's take on sexism in > the books. Clearly, her focus is primarily on racism/prejudice, > but I think she's made some hints that the Slytherins/Death Eaters > (I know the two groups are not interchangeable) types are sexist as > well. I'm thinking about the fact that there are no girls on the > Slytherin Quidditch team (JKR says this specifically and I don't > think this is a throwaway line), eg, and the fact that the Death > Eaters are primarily male, while the Order, by contrast has a large > number of females. And of course, the Gryffindor Quidditch team is > almost half female. Obviously, there are plenty of girls in > Slytherin house, so it's not as clear cut as the Slytherin's > dislike of Mudbloods, but I've thought that JKR might be making a > point that the strength of Gryffindor and the Order lies not just > in their embrace of non-100% wizarding folk, but in the full > integration of women and men into the ranks. The staircase is > kind of a "reverse sexist" institution, based on a stereotype of > boys, and I wonder if this theme will come into play in the later > books, perhaps a bit more overtly. Richard yet again: Others have noted the sexism of Slytherin, and of Voldemort in his selection of Death Eaters, but I don's see this as being any more significant than the synthetic preducies JKR has suffused the WW with. Rather, I see it merely as a prejudice she could not have manufactured a credible synthetic prejudice proxy for. It will likely come into play, but I think the "grander" prejudices of purity, race and such will be more central by far. Richard From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 21:15:34 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:15:34 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin Kill Sirius? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > ***speculation*** > Dumbledore hoped that having spent 7 years at Hogwarts > without any incident, Lupin would be accepted by the Wizarding > World when he left school. But those 7 years coincided with the > rise of Voldemort. Fear and suspicion of strange wizards was > everywhere. Hagrid and Sirius speak of the dark days when no > one knew whom to trust. Despite all the influence Dumbledore > could bring to bear, no one was willing to give Lupin a chance. > It wasn't the best time for a werewolf rights break through. Laura: You seem to be implying that Remus had hopes of being accepted in the Ww after leaving school. I don't know why he would think that. He had had a narow escape in his 6th year which could have gotten someone killed and himself expelled, so he was fully aware that there might be legitimate reasons for people to fear werewolves. Moreover, as you point out, it was the height of LV I, and life was anything but normal in the WW. During times of war, everyday problems have to be put aside, and liberation movements outside of the war effort are nonstarters. Remus isn't stupid-he would know not to expect any progress on the werewolf front while LV was powerful. Pippin: Lupin joined the Order, perhaps because he believed in it, or perhaps because his only friends did. He couldn't get a real job. There wasn't much he could do to help the Order or vice versa. Laura: Not clear. There was actual fighting to be done. Remus could do it. We don't see him fighting yet in the current books because the war is still pretty underground. But the man was the DADA teacher-I imagine he's more than competent with a wand. Pippin: And Voldemort lied... Voldemort could claim that he deplores the excesses done in his name, that he opposes Muggles and Mugglelovers because immigrants to the wizarding world bring their superstitious fear of "monsters" with them. All will be sweetness and light once the magical world is purified of their influence. Laura: Not even Bertha Jorkins would be dumb enough to fall for that argument. Everyone knows who is atracted to LV and why. Remus's problems with acceptance have all come from within the WW, not from Muggles. He will never be seen by pureblood fanatics as anything but a monster. Pippin: Lupin hates and dreads himself for what he is...how would it feel to be valued for his Darkness instead of in spite of it, not just by a little clique at school but by the followers of the most powerful Wizard the world has ever known? Laura: I think Remus is sufficiently self-aware that he would realize that such a bargain would never bring him peace of mind or self- acceptance. I also think that the Marauders valued him before they knew he was a werewolf. It was their love of hm that led them to become animagi. And Remus knew that. The only people in his childhood who took him for what he was, completely what he was, were DD and the Marauders. I can't imagine what would induce him to turn his back on them-even the prospect of a cure would not, IMO, be enough. Pippin: Somehow, Dumbledore's arrival sealed Sirius's fate. But not because Dumbledore wanted Black dead. I think Sirius had to die > because Dumbledore's arrival could mean only one thing. The DE plan had gone awry. Kreacher had confessed to the wrong person. > Laura: I'm sorry, Pippin-I'm lost. What was Kreacher supposed to have confessed to Sirius that he instead told DD? From lbiles at flash.net Wed Oct 15 21:28:34 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:28:34 -0000 Subject: Rambling about Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82979 >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: Now that Sirius is gone, will Lupin be the next father figure? Somehow, I don't think he will, because I don't think Harry will be so willing to accept another parent so soon. Harry is nearly grown up now, and what can Lupin really do for him that Hagrid, Dumbledore and the Weasleys can't? So then, I ask myself, what was the point of creating such a cool character if JKR is not even going to use him in a significant way? Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs have already played huge roles in Harry's life. Will Moony do the same? >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: I hope so...really. He needs someone like Lupin. Only Lupin feels the loss of Sirius as strongly (or close to) as Harry. Harry lost his godfather. Remus lost his only remaining friend. Remeber, a friend he only just got back. I think we will see more of Remus in 6 & (hopefully) 7. Maybe teaching Harry Occlumency ? > Lziner - who will never be convinced that Lupin is ESE! I think Harry will grab onto Lupin, maybe not as a father figure but as a friend. Kind of like when DD describes Harry's feelings for Sirius as a "mixture of father and brother" maybe the Harry/Lupin relationship will take on the brother/friend dynamic. Lupin is the link to understanding so much for him -- his father, his mother, his godfather, the MWPP and Snape trials and tribulations, etc. He is also the one he gave Harry much of his confidence in his magic by tutoring him for the patronus. I believe that whoever takes over the mentor role for Harry in book 6 is destined to bite it by the end of the book. Unfortunately, I think it has been set up that Lupin will fill that role. I have never wanted to believe the ESE!Lupin theories but it would sure be a horrendous way to sever that relationship and devestate Harry even further. leb From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 21:48:24 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:48:24 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: Did Lupin Kill Sirius?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82980 > > Kneasy Ole Sevvy is anger driven; it is his essence, his being, his reason and his comfort. Take it away and nothing is left but a shell waiting for the undertakers. Laura: Yes, you said it much better than I did. Snape would lose his identity without his anger. He doesn't appear to want to change his identity, so I doubt he would try to rid himself of his anger. > Kneasy: > This modern predeliction for 'ridding' people of 'unhealthy' attitudes is understandable for society but not satisfactory for the individual. Something has made Snape very angry indeed; he wants restitution, justice, the scales balanced. That's as it should be. Telling someone that their justifiable emotions are to be deplored is to deprive them of their individuality in the name of mass narcolepsis. Action and reaction should be equal and opposite, not only in physics but also in righting wrongs. Laura: Kneasy, I think you're quite right. (And who really wants to live in a world full of Hallmark-card people? I'll take some irascibility over empty-headed cheeriness any day.) But the key word here is "justifiable". I read your post 69509 and I think it makes a lot of sense, if you can get past the giant hurdle of Snape actually marrying anyone. If someone has hurt you, you have a right to be angry about it. If LV killed Snape's family, it would be unimaginable if Snape didn't want justice. And since that seems to be a scarce commodity within the MoM, Snape has fashioned his own plan to get it. I do think, though, that some of Snape's anger is not justified. I'll buy your theory that he's acting with Harry (and enjoying the part immensely), but his anger at James and company was and is real. And that's what I don't think is justified. Canon suggests more than once that James and Snape hated each other from the very first moment they met. Neither seems to have had any reason for this other than instinct. James soon learns that SS is heavy into the dark arts, though, and that gives him a very good reason to hate and mistrust Snape. But what about Snape? It seems entirely personal with him-he doesn't like James because James is arrogant, doesn't follow rules, is popular and good at everything he does. They both find their natural allies and spend the next 7 years tormenting each other, with no clear winner, although James does score big on Snape by saving his life. Then, a few years out of school, James dies and Sirius goes to prison. The game is over and Snape still has tons of rage he hasn't acted on. I think the reason people on the list are upset by Snape's anger with the Marauders is that we've all had times when we've felt enraged and had no outlet for it. And we know that is not a pleasant feeling. If Snape only had his anger against LV, he wouldn't be so painful to think and read about. But he's angry at everything and everyone all the time because that's just who he is. There can't be any satisfactory resolution because there wasn't any real injury to begin with. That's the sense in which Snape's anger is not a healthy thing. (I"ll get rid of the sandals and beard now.) Kneasy: While not an adherent myself, the Mosaic tenet of 'An eye for an eye'has a long and distinguished record, forgiving transgressors gives them the opportunity to do it again. Not an optimum solution. Laura: For what it's worth, Jewish law has never condoned the literal application of that infamous verse. It was interpreted by the rabbis as an instruction to seek the value of an injury in a civil court, i.e., the value of an eye. From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 21:54:18 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:54:18 -0000 Subject: Tonks - the Death Eater (reprise) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82981 I posted a theory on Tonks a short while back but had no respons at all. I wonder why. Maybe the idea has already been discussed and I didn't notice - and in that case, Im sorry for reposting. If that is the case please point me in the direction where to find it. Here goes again, and I do hope for some sort of reply this time :) In OotP we are introduced to Tonks, the Metamorphmagus. It seemed wrong that she didn't become known later in the books as someone who actually *used* her skills as a Metamorphmagus. So this idea came to me. What if indeed she does use her skills and changes into someone else on a regular basis. Into someone we already know but who is no longer of any real importance in the books - at least not to us, the readers. What if Snape is not the spy after all - it would be a bit too obvious if he were, wouldn't it? So - who else would be able to take the position of Dumbledore's spy and be able to get very close to Voldemort without him even suspecting there's a spy in his midst? Tonks might be the one. But for her to do so she would need to take the place of someone who is no longer around - someone *Voldemort* THINKS is still around - but isn't. Whatever happened to Barty Ferm Jr after he had his soul sucked out? Do we know? Does Voldemort have any way of knowing what really happened to Barty Ferm Jr at the end of GOF? Who could have told him? What if Barty Ferm Jr still exists - on special occassions. What if Tonks could Metamorph into Ferm Jr and take his place at the DE meetings and get information directly from Voldemort to pass on to the Order. Now - how would Tonks know when the DE's are summoned by Voldemort? Snape would tell her - because he would know! I love the idea that Tonks Metamorphmagus'es herself into Barty Ferm Jr and attends the DE meetings. I can't think of anyone - but one - who could have told Voldemort that his loyal supporter Ferm Jr was sucked dry at the end of GOF - and that would be Lucius. But would Fudge really have any reason to have told Lucius about that incident? What do you think? Inge From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 15 21:58:14 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:58:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding numbers References: <1066242560.81924.47071.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002b01c39367$77b87e00$39e76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 82982 Mikael wrote: >I've been thinking a bit about the number of wizards, and the posts I >found when I searched to see what people had already come up with >weren't satisfying. To calculate the size of the wizarding population >from the number of students at Hogwarts, we need to know (at least) >muggle-born students, and Hogwarts attendance. >lives. I'll assume that the wizarding world has a pretty high mean >age comparable to Sweden, for which I have data. Children aged 0-10 >make up 12 % of the pop, ages 11-17 make up 9 % and ages 18+ make up >the rest. That's not too dissimilar to the figures for the UK, according to the 2001 census, which works out that about 9% of the population are in the 11-17 bracket. Your assumption about whether it's particularly dangerous to be a wizard is thought-provoking. One thing that we do know is that although accidents are more frequent, wizard physique is more robust than muggles so that survival rates are also high, except in unexpected circumstances such as the Voldemort rebellion. I've suggested to the list that it's reasonable to conclude that the normal wizard lifespan is roughly twice the muggle one and that therefore the 11-17 year olds are around 5% of the population. >wizards" (p. 101, Bloomsbury pbk). So, a pretty big fraction then. >Let's assume 50 % for simplicity. This seems a bit too high, but OTOH >that will compensate for the number of halfblood students; they only >have one parent adding to the wizard pop. Somewhere (I'm not sure exactly where), JKR has said that 25% of the Hogwarts students are muggle-born. That doesn't make it clear whether that 25% includes half bloods. I would assume that it does. Let's make another very rough assumption, which is that the 6th and 7th years at Hogwarts are a third lower than years 1-5, because some students don't come back for their NEWTs. That would imply that, based on a Hogwarts student body of 1000, 39 wizard children/year are born to at least one muggle parent. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, based on 300 years of fairly strict segregation of the two worlds. >Hogwarts' "drainage basin" that would otherwise go to Hogwarts. The >larger the fraction of non-hogwarts children, the larger the maximum >population of wizards is. So I assume 50 % to not underestimate the >pop size. Some theories assume that the Hogwarts population is a lot lower than this. >Another question is 10 500 wizards and wizards-to-be for how many >muggles? Given the names of known Hogwarts people, I'd say that >Hogwarts cover the british isles (UK and Ireland) which has a pop of >64 million people. So, one adult wizard or witch per 8 000 muggles. Your figure is actually one of the lowest I've seen theorised. Some of the things that need to be factored in to try to think about the size of the WW (and I agree that the British Isles is probably the relevant unit here) are - the number of professional quidditch teams and the likely fan base that would be needed to support them (your figure would imply that there are less than 500 wizards in Wales, for example, even though there are two professional quidditch teams requiring support - the diversity and size of the media (at least one radio station, the Daily and Evening Prophet, the Quibbler, Witch Weekly, and a number of other publications, plus a very healthy-seeming book market) - the number of wizards who work for the Ministry - if they are working for the bureaucracy, then a certain number of other wizards need to exist working elsewhere in order to generate the cost of their wages It's not I think a discussion that will ever generate a consensus! But don't be deterred by that ( I never am...) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Oct 15 22:22:34 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:22:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Only Lving Relative... Message-ID: <64.35a490b5.2cbf22aa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82983 In a message dated 10/14/2003 10:08:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, artcase at yahoo.com writes: That would be like saying there are no decendants of Henry the Eighth. Sherrie, the Obnoxious But Adorable History Buff, has to chime in here: There aren't. All Henry's (known) children - "Bloody" Mary Tudor, Lizzie I, Edward Tudor & Edward Fitzroy - died without issue, so there are no direct descendants of Henry VIII. There are collateral descendants - the current royal family is, if my memory serves, descended through Henry's sister Margaret - but the direct line has died out. As to how Voldie could be Sally Sly's last descendant - Wizarding families in general (Weasleys excluded) seem to be very small. If Ms Marvolo-Riddle was the only child of the only child of the only child (& so on ad nauseum), then her only child (being one snot-nosed Tom Riddle, Jr.) would be the last of his line, until/unless he himself chose to breed. Just as Sirius was the last of the direct line of the Blacks. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kewpiebb99 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 22:28:04 2003 From: kewpiebb99 at yahoo.com (Joan Lau) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Debt - Problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031015222804.22053.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82984 --- slgazit wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" > wrote: > > I don't think Snape owes Harry a life debt, the debt was to his > > father. In fact Snape saved Harry's life so Harry owes a life debt > to > > him imo. > > Actually Harry did save Snape's life (or rather soul) in PoA when he > produced the Patronus that chased away the dementors at the end of > the book. Snape was unconscious at the time, so I don't think he > knows about that. If we count that incident then Ron and Hermione > also owe him their life/souls. > > Salit > (who has no idea if that constitutes a life debt but certainly merits > a "thank you" note :-)) I don't think that incident count as a life debt at all. First, it was Harry (and trio) who knock Snape out. If Harry didn't do that Snape wouldn't be unconscious and he could sure fight off those demntors himself just fine. How's that different from throwing someone into a river and then pull him out 10 mintues later? Do you consider that a life debt then? QP __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 15 22:31:03 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:31:03 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor Staircase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fourjays22" wrote: > BIG SNIP > > So, thoughts on the role of the bewitched staircase ---SNIP...? > Julie I think a swift summon of a broomstick gets you free access to the girls' dorm of your choice. You can get there and avoid stepping foot ont he staircase. Damn, just gave a away a plot device for my fanfic.... Arya From sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 00:58:01 2003 From: sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com (sarcasticmuppet) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:58:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: CH 2, "A Peck of Owls" (slightly modified repost) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "raps029" wrote: > > I think that Lily and Petunia's parents were killed by wizards. > James told them that the criminals would be caught and sent to > Azkaban and guarded by dementors. This is why Petunia hates anything > to do with magic; she blames Lily for the death of their parents. > > Ruth I don't think this would be why Petunia hates magic. At least, I don't think it's the ONLY reason. I think her reason for hating magic has been obvious since Book I--she is insanely jealous that her kid sister got the talent instead of her. Her diatribe at the shack on the lake made that perfectly clear, and she puts up this facade of respectability and normalcy and convinces herself that anything to do with magic is totally against what she stands for, even though secretly (even secret from herself) she harbors these memories of details of the WW because deep down, she still wants to be a part of it. That aside, I think your speculation on Lily's parents might be completely valid. Aside from Petunia's reaction to it, anyway. I personally don't really believe it, unless they were victims of random muggle-baiting, or maybe they were trying to draw Lily out of hiding. Actually, that might very well be a valid reason to kill them--they were expecting the Potters to come to the rescue. Hmmm...I think I'll write a fanfic about that. Later Days, sarcasticmuppet From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Thu Oct 16 01:01:26 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:01:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 6 rumor Message-ID: <62.35fdd96d.2cbf47e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82987 Chrissi wrote: Now RSFJenny here: I saw this on the TLC site too, but personally, I'm skeptical, and here's why: Whenever an uncomfirmed rumor comes out like this out of the blue it helps to look at it from this perspective: could this be referring to the old book (ie. "old news")? In this case, the answer is a definite yes. The first draft was probably done in around January because I think we heard the publishing date in March. Then, the minimal but lasting injury - Harry's hand. The scar that Harry thinks will probably never fade fits nicely into this description. I think someone got some undated info and assumed it was referring to book 6, when, in fact, it's old news. ~RSFJenny~ "Listening to the news! Again?" "Well, it changes every day, you see." - Vernon Dursley and Harry Potter http://www.geocities.com/rsfjenny/HP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfran at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 16 01:07:28 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:07:28 -0000 Subject: Ponderables... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82988 1. Could Harry have been placed with the Dursley's because they were the only family Harry had that had a clue about the wizarding world? He may well have other relatives out there.*shrug* 2. If only the heir of Slytherin could open the chamber of secrets how was Harry able to open the Chamber of Secrets??!? 3. Do you think Harry will ever get a good look at DD's scar. (which, if I remember correctly is a map of the underground. I took this to be a map of the tunnels etc. under Gringotts, Hogwarts etc.. If DD had this map wouldn't he know where the Chamber of Secrets was? (perhaps he knew where it was but not how to open it?) Is it only a map of the "London Underground" (subway)? From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Oct 16 01:28:22 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:28:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ponderables... Message-ID: <7a.4997b453.2cbf4e36@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82989 In a message dated 10/15/2003 9:11:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dfran at sbcglobal.net writes: 2. If only the heir of Slytherin could open the chamber of secrets how was Harry able to open the Chamber of Secrets??!? Sherrie - that would be me, the redhead in the corner: This is the only one I can answer. Apparently, Parseltongue is a talent passed pretty much exclusively through the Slytherin line - making them the only ones who COULD open a chamber that requires a Parseltongue password. I doubt Sally Sly counted on Harry's acquisition of the talent... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Oct 16 01:35:35 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:35:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray ... Message-ID: <160.26f0a0dc.2cbf4fe7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82990 In a message dated 10/14/03 7:55:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zanelupin at yahoo.com writes: > KathyK: > > What I believe Doxy is trying to communicate is that there must be > some reason that they suspected Lupin might be the spy. As in he > must have done something to cause them to become suspicious. Unless > of course they just decided that even though he's their good friend, > he's a werewolf and therefore untrustworthy. That seems unlikely. > > Why is that unlikely? Sirius believed that Lupin went to Voldemort because Lupin is bright, and was powerful when he wasn't a werewolf. Then we learn it was Pettigrew who was actually working for Voldemort because he was weak, not as powerful, but wanting to be as powerful as the rest were. Lupin has trouble finding a steady job, yet he says when teaching Harry how to do a Patronus, many grown wizards have trouble with that, yet we hear from Hermione and Ron that Lupin does it on the train. From the start of POA, I always thought that Lupin was a strong wizard, but is one who doesn't advertise it, remember it is Lupin who Snape tied up in POA, not Sirius. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_karmol at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 02:06:05 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:06:05 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > > > Becides minimal injuries can mean anything...banging his head as he > > falls off his broom during Quiddich practice, a punch from Dudley > > and/or Drago, being hugged too tight by Hagrid.....the list could go > > on and on. ;-) > > > > Mandy > > > Can the loss of a leg be considered minimal? > > I fancy Harry having a wooden one made from the Whomping Willow. > > One twitch and Draco is the last of the Malfoys. > > Kneasy Stephanie Writes: It's interesting that JK actually mentions that he sustains injuries...I mean HArry has been seriously hurt before. He's had numerous minor injuries. To mention it, I would think that it's something that can't go away. A loss of "something" is definate. Steph From boredbatty at comcast.net Wed Oct 15 19:50:27 2003 From: boredbatty at comcast.net (boredbatty at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:50:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] a lurker speaks - Snape's bias References: <005201c39353$80baf2d0$f0936751@yourq7fwqx3ncp> Message-ID: <00a501c39355$95215a00$6601a8c0@burrow> No: HPFGUIDX 82992 ----- Original Message ----- From: Alison Williams I've just finished re-re-reading OoP and some things struck me this time (as either sad or funny or significant) that didn't before. Knowing how JKR likes to note significant things in a casual mention that you overlook, until it hits you on a later reading, I tend to study this sort of passage with suspicion. Snape woundn't have known that the Sorting Hat seriously considered putting Harry in Slytherin. Harry has very deliberately never told anyone except Dumbledore, and I can't see Dumbledore betraying such a confidence. How might this effect Snape's attitude to him? Given his outrageous bias towards the members of Slytherin House might it draw out - eventually - some grudging respect to know that the Hat was of the opinion that Harry 'would have done well in Slytherin'? Hi everyone. :) I'm new to the list, and this is my first post. I've thought often about the Potter/Snape relationship, and I adore Snape's character. I feel that Snape, in the end, will wind up one of Harry's true allies. Snape has a love of the boy, whether he wants to or not. I think, perhaps, Harry's choice to be in a house _other_ than Slytherin will have a larger impact on Snape: Slytherin would have made Harry's life too easy--there would have been no fight to it. And I think, even if begrudgingly, Snape can respect that. It shows a true bravery in Harry. If he had chosen Slytherin, he would have allied quickly to the dark forces, and shown true weakness in himself. As the story goes, he's a bit of a Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz--if Glenda had told Dorothy from the start all she had to do was *really* want to go home, and click her heels three times...Dorothy wouldn't have believed her. And so it goes with Young Master Potter- he must really believe in himself and those around him to do what he must do, and in my opionion, Snape just might be one of the people who tells Harry to click his heels. I'll have to think on this more. --erin From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 15 20:13:21 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:13:21 -0000 Subject: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > > > Becides minimal injuries can mean anything...banging his head as he > > falls off his broom during Quiddich practice, a punch from Dudley > > and/or Drago, being hugged too tight by Hagrid.....the list could go > > on and on. ;-) > > > > Mandy > > > Can the loss of a leg be considered minimal? > > Kneasy If he's still alive mobile and conscious, for the purposes of plot, it is a minor injury. I want Harry to loose an eye. Eye patches are cool and that would mean he'd have trouble aiming. I hope this rumor is true. If she's done by January, they can edit the book this time. Golly From jayandjay22 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 21:38:40 2003 From: jayandjay22 at hotmail.com (fourjays22) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:38:40 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor Staircase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82994 I've been wondering if all the boys' staircases in > > the four houses were bewitched? > > Richard here: > > The boys' staircase in Gryffindor is NOT bewitched, as evidenced by > the dialog that follows the boys' attempt to visit Hermione in the > girls' tower. The point out that Hermione was able to visit their > dormitory, but that they could not visit her in the girls' dorm. > Hermione then points out the historical mistrust of boys. Apologies -- this was a typo -- I meant to wonder if all of the girl's staircases in the houses were bewitched, similar to those in Gryffindor. I don't recall it being mentioned in the context of the other houses, one way or another. Thank you! Julie From s_ings at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 02:12:59 2003 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:12:59 -0000 Subject: Announcing Convention Alley! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82995 Greetings from the Convention Alley Planning Committee! We are pleased to announce that HPforGrownups has agreed to sponsor our event, to be held at the University of Ottawa from July 30 - Aug 1, 2004. This means that we will, via various HPFGU lists, be able to keep you up-to-date on all the news on our upcoming conference. Our vision for this conference is to have as many of our presenters as possible drawn from the HP fandom as opposed to distributing our CFP mainly to academia. It is the continued quality of discussion on the HPFGU lists that makes us believe this is possible. We are in the process of setting up a website and will let you know as soon as it is up and running. Our Call for Papers (CFP) will be released very soon. In the meantime, feel free to ask any questions you may have at our LiveJournal (http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/) or on the HPFGU-Convention list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Convention/). Those of you wishing to help plan the event can volunteer by indicating your interest in either one of the above locations and one of our Planning Committee members will contact you as soon as possible. Volunteers are welcome in all areas including, but not limited to: art, games room, sponsorship, decorations, finance, legal, security, logistics, registration, vendor marketplace, programme, public relations and social programming. Help us make this the best event possible. We look forward to seeing you in Ottawa next summer to help us celebrate Harry's birthday! Sheryll Townsend Chair Convention Alley Planning Committee From jayandjay22 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 22:51:24 2003 From: jayandjay22 at hotmail.com (fourjays22) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:51:24 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor Staircase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 82996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fourjays22" > wrote: > > BIG SNIP > > > > So, thoughts on the role of the bewitched staircase ---SNIP...? > > I think a swift summon of a broomstick gets you free access to the > girls' dorm of your choice. You can get there and avoid stepping > foot ont he staircase. Damn, just gave a away a plot device for my > fanfic.... I pictured the bewitchment more broadly -- as forbidding boys/men from ascending to the dorm regardless of ascension method, lol. I assumed if boys were deemed untrustworthy, it wasn't simply a matter of them not being able to walk the stairs -- they would actually be prevented from making the journey to the girls dorm. But a literal reading of canon points only to the stairs themselves being bewitched, in which case a broom would suffice. I'll be interested to see what transpires here. Julie From Yahtzee63 at aol.com Thu Oct 16 02:04:40 2003 From: Yahtzee63 at aol.com (Yahtzee63 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:04:40 EDT Subject: Life Debt -- Problem Message-ID: <196.213313c2.2cbf56b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82997 Sachmet96 says: "I don't think James risked his life. We should not forget he was an Animagus and werewolves don't kill Animagi. So if it got too dangerous he just had to transform into Prongs." I don't think this is true, for the simple reason that, while James could save/stop Snape, Prongs could not. I too take it as stated by JKR that werewolves do not attack animals, and while in wolf form they do not have the ability to distinguish between animals and Animagi. However, I think it's more complicated; while James can turn into a stag, he cannot turn into a stag in that particular instance. Snape, who has no idea that James can turn into a stag, is unlikely to follow some strange animal to safety; also, Sirius has said that, upon turning into animals, Animagi's minds become less distinct and focused. It's not at all clear that Prongs would retain the mental capacity to gauge the risk and act accordingly. Also, if James and Snape were together and Werewolf Lupin attacked, James changing into Prongs would be the same as condemning Snape to certain death. Given Snape's profound dislike and distrust of James, it seems that a few quick shouted words would have been insufficient to deter Snape from his purpose -- particularly if they only served as the precursor to James' transformation. Upon seeing his enemy do something strictly illegal, what are the chances Snape would run? Zero. Rather, he would be MORE inclined to stay around and investigate, which James would know about him. And that, of course, would have killed Snape. Therefore, in order to have any chance of saving Snape at all, James would have to have been committed to staying in his human form at least until Snape had been gotten to safety. The risk he took was therefore real, and the life debt incurred had to be genuine. Yahtzee http://www.thechicagoloop.net/yahtzee YahtzeeFicUpdates at yahoogroups.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Oct 16 02:22:10 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:22:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 6 rumor Message-ID: <17c.21c389f2.2cbf5ad2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 82998 In a message dated 10/15/2003 7:14:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca writes: > If he's still alive mobile and conscious, for the purposes of plot, > it is a minor injury. > > I want Harry to loose an eye. Eye patches are cool and that would > mean he'd have trouble aiming. > > I hope this rumor is true. If she's done by January, they can edit > the book this time. > But what minimal (or even some major) injury couldn't be fixed by a night or so in the hospital wing? If Harry lost an eye, for example, there would probably be some potion to make it grow back (like when he lost his bones). If he broke anything or got any cuts/bruises or even a sore throat from the fire whisky he snuck a sip of there would probably be a remedy. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 16 02:39:50 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:39:50 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ponderables... In-Reply-To: <7a.4997b453.2cbf4e36@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031016153626.00a30640@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 82999 Also, LV as Tom Riddle in the chamber told Harry that they, Harry and him, were likely the only Parseltongues to come to Hogwarts since SS himself. As for a password, I'm not sure there, I think it only required the language to be spoken, Harry didn't use exact wording for both openings. He had two close partitions to go through, including the entrance. Tanya At 21:28 15/10/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Sherrie - that would be me, the redhead in the corner: > >This is the only one I can answer. Apparently, Parseltongue is a talent >passed pretty much exclusively through the Slytherin line - making them >the only >ones who COULD open a chamber that requires a Parseltongue password. I doubt >Sally Sly counted on Harry's acquisition of the talent... From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 02:53:42 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:53:42 -0000 Subject: Ponderables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83000 deedeee88 pondered: >2. If only the heir of Slytherin could open the chamber of secrets >how was Harry able to open the Chamber of Secrets??!? I reply: The book never actually says that only the heir of Slytherin could *open* the Chamber of Secrets, only that they are the only ones who could *unseal* the Chamber of Secrets. >From CoS Chapter 9 `The Writing On The Wall.' Spoken by Professor Binns: "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The heir alone would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic." Note that we have the use of the words `seal' and `unseal.' The way I see it, Slytherin sealed the Chamber 1000 years ago. Tom Riddle, his true heir, unsealed it 50 years ago. But no-one has resealed it in any way. That is, *anyone* can now walk on down into the Chamber of Secrets (provided they speak Parseltongue or are with someone who does). So, Harry didn't unseal the Chamber of Secrets (which is the only task restricted to Slytherin's heir) it was already unsealed for him. He just opened the door to it. The above quote uses the line `none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school.' Follow that train of thought logically and you get `as soon as Slytherins true heir *does* arrive at the school, *anyone* would be able to open the Chamber of Secrets.' So, seeing as Riddle was at the school at the time (that is, via Ginny Weasley) it makes perfect sense that Harry is allowed to open the Chamber's door, without actually having to be related to Slytherin. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 03:21:13 2003 From: molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gryffindor Staircase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031016032113.73977.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83001 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fourjays22" > > wrote: > > BIG SNIP > > (and rephrasing) > Is it commonly known that boys can't climb the stairs to the girl's dormitory? Well, I bet it's in Hogwarts: A History. So if people actually read it like Hermione insists they should than it probably would be common knowledge. Speaking of which, I'd really like Hogwarts: A History to be published like Fantastic Beasts and QTTA were. That would be really interesting to read. ~Kathryn ===== "Difference of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.-Dumbledore,GoF "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that."-Dumbledore-SS Ron: "Well, I had one that I was playing Quidditch the other night...what d'you reckon that means? Harry:"Probably that you're going to be eaten by a giant marshmallow or something." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 16 07:10:02 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:10:02 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 6 rumor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031016200757.00a37bf0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83003 I have doubts also. It seems to me, that it could be a diversion. From the interviews I have read JKR is careful not to give any hints away. Tanya At 15:26 15/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Right now I believe that it's just a rumor. > >Keep in mind that interest in HP is so intense, that whenever JKR >makes a statement in reference to the saga (especially Book 6) it >will become headline news in the UK and US. Whoever is lucky enough >to scoop any information will shout it out loud. So right now I >would take this statement with a grain of salt. > >Becides minimal injuries can mean anything...banging his head as he >falls off his broom during Quiddich practice, a punch from Dudley >and/or Drago, being hugged too tight by Hagrid.....the list could go >on and on. ;-) > >Mandy > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from >posts to which you're replying! > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 16 08:10:55 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:10:55 -0000 Subject: Rambling about Remus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > I think Harry will grab onto Lupin, maybe not as a father figure but > as a friend. Except that unlike Sirius, Lupin is not one who lets his emotions out. Note how Snape's sessions with Harry (in OoP) increased by a lot their understanding of each other's character and motives (though it certainly did not improve their relationship). In contrast, there is none of that in Harry's sessions with Lupin (in PoA). Lupin is still very much a stranger to Harry at the end of the book. He likes him as a teacher but has not developed much of an emotional attachment (or any kind of a powerfull emotional response - as he has for Snape for instance :-)). So I find it hard to see Lupin in a second father role. He simply does not encourage emotional connection as much as Sirius did. > I believe that whoever takes over the mentor role for Harry in book 6 > is destined to bite it by the end of the book. And I have a feeling that this is exactly why Harry may avoid getting attached again. I would not be surprised if he tries to pull away from his friends as well (though I don't think they'll let him). He is still in shock at the end of OoP (just like he had been at the end of GoF interestingly). But by book 6 it will penetrate that anyone who is known to be close to him is at an increased risk. So I think that we'll see Harry isolating himself to protect his friends. And I doubt he'll allow himself to get overly attached to Lupin (even if he could which I doubt) after what happened with Sirius. Salit (who disagrees with Evil!Lupin theories but agrees that he'll probably be one of the casualties by the end...) From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 16 08:34:24 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:34:24 -0000 Subject: Life Debt -- Problem In-Reply-To: <196.213313c2.2cbf56b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83005 Yahtzee > Snape, who has no idea that James can turn into a stag, is unlikely to follow > some strange animal to safety; also, Sirius has said that, upon turning into > animals, Animagi's minds become less distinct and focused. It's not at all > clear that Prongs would retain the mental capacity to gauge the risk and act > accordingly. > > Also, if James and Snape were together and Werewolf Lupin attacked, James > changing into Prongs would be the same as condemning Snape to certain death. > Given Snape's profound dislike and distrust of James, it seems that a few quick > shouted words would have been insufficient to deter Snape from his purpose -- > particularly if they only served as the precursor to James' transformation. Upon > seeing his enemy do something strictly illegal, what are the chances Snape > would run? Zero. Rather, he would be MORE inclined to stay around and > investigate, which James would know about him. And that, of course, would have killed > Snape. > > Therefore, in order to have any chance of saving Snape at all, James would > have to have been committed to staying in his human form at least until Snape > had been gotten to safety. The risk he took was therefore real, and the life > debt incurred had to be genuine. sachmet96: I don't agree there. James could get in as a human but he could always change into a stag when it got to dangerous (so there was no risk for him). Actually changing into a stag would have been logical (and safe for him) as he would have been able to hold Lupin down (as stated in the books Sirius and James were big enough animals to do that). So Snape would see the human James who turns - if it gets to risky for him - into an animal and then Snape would have no reason to not follow him. I still can't see any risk James took that would lead to a life debt if a life debt means to save someone's life at the risk of the own. From tjlake18 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 02:52:39 2003 From: tjlake18 at yahoo.com (Tasha) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:52:39 -0000 Subject: Curious... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83006 I am new to the list and have been trying to keep up for the past week. After rereading for the millionth time I have a few things I would like to question. 1) Since all the DE have a place in Voldemort?s little circle wouldn?t Snape know that Wormtail was a DE? 2) In POA Sirius says on page 272 of the British version, `ready to stike the moment he could be sure of allies...to deliver the last Potter to them.` I am wondering why does it seem that Voldemort wants the whole Potter line squashed? I know this is an ongoing question, but I thought it was intersting that Sirius says, `last Potter?. I do not know if these topics have been brought up before, but I thought I would ask. Tasha From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Thu Oct 16 06:22:59 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:22:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding numbers References: <1066242560.81924.47071.m18@yahoogroups.com> <002b01c39367$77b87e00$39e76151@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <180401c393ae$12a59560$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83007 > Mikael wrote: > >> Another question is 10 500 wizards and wizards-to-be for how many >> muggles? Given the names of known Hogwarts people, I'd say that >> Hogwarts cover the british isles (UK and Ireland) which has a pop of >> 64 million people. So, one adult wizard or witch per 8 000 muggles. manawydan wrote: > Your figure is actually one of the lowest I've seen theorised. Some > of the things that need to be factored in to try to think about the > size of the WW (and I agree that the British Isles is probably the > relevant unit here) are > > - the number of professional quidditch teams > - the diversity and size of the media > - the number of wizards who work for the Ministry > Note also, you can't assume that the wizard population is in steady state, especially given their long lives. A century ago the proportion of muggle-borns may have been only 5% (because Hogwarts used to be more selective, or it may have been 50% (because magic genes are being culled out of the muggle population.) Wizard birth rates will be no more constant than muggle birth rates, and the two won't vary in sync either. Nor is wizarding lifespan likely to be constant. All this means we can't deduce much from the population of Hogwarts. E.g, suppose in 1930 the wizards had a life expectancy of 120 and a average family size of 9, but by 1980 that had changed to 160 and 1.2. Then the population of Hogwarts would have plummeted over those fifty years, the fraction of muggle-borns would have increased, and the total wizarding population would have remained steady, which is consistent with what we see. This also means the wizarding population could be almost any size we want without producing any contradictions. If 30% of England were wizards, the world would be rather different, but 1-5% could be believable, as could just 5,000. With their magic wizards may be able to sustain complex institutions with a much smaller population than muggles need. -- Robert From lennyb2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 09:23:15 2003 From: lennyb2002 at yahoo.com (lennyb2002) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:23:15 -0000 Subject: COS clues In-Reply-To: <000601c3930e$01e0f0d0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83008 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > I personally never thought we'd see Lockhart again, but there he was in > OotP. He's in St. Mungo's and he's slowly recovering. What if he remembers > some important piece of information? > What do you think? Do you think Lockhart will prove useful after all? Hi! Lockhart's re-appearance is puzzling. JKR was once quite open that Lupin would return, just not in book 4. When asked on Lockhart, here's JKR in Oct. '99 "People on the internet want to know if Gilderoy Lockhart is going to come back. jkr--Gilderoy Lockhart, bless him, is currently residing in St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries and his memory is still gone. So at the moment, he's in no fit state to go anywhere. Which I think serves him right. --You didn't quite answer the question as to whether he will be back or not. Yeah, well, you know, you've got to sometimes dodge these things." Then: 2001-- "Which character do you most enjoy writing for? JKR--Good question... Gilderoy Lockhart was loads of fun, but he was a bit of a one-joke character, and I think I did as much as I could with him..." I thought the 2001 quote meant he wouldn't be returning and I didn't mind. In OOTP, he returns. The above quotes make me think he'll probably play some important role in the next 2 books... And that's the problem. Who isn't possibly suited to play an important role in the next 2 books? You can't rule out dead characters either because there's the possibility that Tonks was actually Bertha Jorkins, or Cedric Diggory or Wormtail or whatever. Trying to convince myself that the sequels won't be Lucas' Prequels, lb From amani at charter.net Thu Oct 16 10:59:40 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:59:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Curious... References: Message-ID: <005701c393d4$99cb6760$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83009 Tasha: 1) Since all the DE have a place in Voldemort?s little circle wouldn?t Snape know that Wormtail was a DE? Taryn: No DE knows every other DE. (That's in one of the GoF trials, I think? My books are being borrowed.) I imagine Wormtail's position as one wasn't known because of the extreme importance of his mission. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 11:15:55 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 04:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: COS clues Message-ID: <20031016111555.36563.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83010 On 15Oct03 Mom31 wrote: "I think one of the things (clues from Book 2) is Professor Lockhart and his memory loss. He knows a lot of information. He's stolen many peoples memories. They told him their stories and then he wiped their memories of them. Now he's the only one who knows that information.... What if he remembers some important piece of information?... There's also the subject of his books. He put alot of those stolen stories in them. JKR made a point of having Molly reading one of them in those dreaded cleaning scenes. ..." Paula Gaon now: Wow! This is good. I've been re-reading all of the series and have felt something hanging over my head, untied threads. Lockhart's reappearance was a surprise to me too and yes, I too expect some relevent involvement from him. Like you, I picked up on Molly's reading of his books. One thing that really sticks in my head is the real significance of House Elves. Have the distinct feeling that we haven't heard the whole story; remember Molly was cooped up with Kreacher. And, if I'm not mistaken, Doby just "pops up" at the Dursleys(that was Book 2, wasn't it?) with no prior introduction or background. Could it be that Lockhart's books contain some pertinent info on House Elves and Molly was trying to remember something? Another clue that I picked up (actually in Book 4) when Harry, Ron, and Hermione were in the kitchen; Hermione mentioned Doby's freedom and he, Doby, clearly did not want to discuss the subject. Yes, seems like something is indeed cooking. I must get Book 2 back and search for more clues. Anyone else have more ideas? Paula "Griff" Gaon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Thu Oct 16 11:58:22 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:58:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 6 rumor References: <17c.21c389f2.2cbf5ad2@aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c393dc$cc4f67b0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 83011 > But what minimal (or even some major) injury couldn't be fixed by a night or so in the hospital wing? If Harry lost an eye, for example, there would probably be some potion to make it grow back (like when he lost his bones). If he broke anything or got any cuts/bruises or even a sore throat from the fire whisky he snuck a sip of there would probably be a remedy. ~Cassie~ Mad Eye Moody has a peg leg and a magical eye. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Thu Oct 16 12:43:06 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:43:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] COS clues References: <20031016111555.36563.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004801c393e3$0c00e3b0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 83012 Paula Gaon wrote: Lockhart's reappearance was a surprise to me too and yes, I too expect some relevent involvement from him. Like you, I picked up on Molly's reading of his books. One thing that really sticks in my head is the real significance of House Elves. Have the distinct feeling that we haven't heard the whole story; remember Molly was cooped up with Kreacher. And, if I'm not mistaken, Doby just "pops up" at the Dursleys(that was Book 2, wasn't it?) with no prior introduction or background. Could it be that Lockhart's books contain some pertinent info on House Elves and Molly was trying to remember something? Another clue that I picked up (actually in Book 4) when Harry, Ron, and Hermione were in the kitchen; Hermione mentioned Doby's freedom and he, Doby, clearly did not want to discuss the subject. ! ; Yes, seems like something is indeed cooking. Joj now: I think Molly is definitly the weakest link in the order. She's living in fear, and JKR went to great pains to show us the ecstent (warrented) of her fear. Then it was backed up by Mr. Weasley's horrible injury. She'll definitly be vunerable to being tricked, controlled, blackmailed or making a "deal with the devil". JKR also pointed out how much Molly loves Harry like a son, so I don't think she would sacrifice him for one of her children or husband. At least not knowingly. And why is she still using Lockhart's books? That doesn't make sense, so it has to mean something. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 13:40:28 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:40:28 -0000 Subject: Regrowing Limbs (Was:Re: book 6 rumor) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83013 Cassie wrote: > But what minimal (or even some major) injury couldn't be fixed by a night or > so in the hospital wing? If Harry lost an eye, for example, there would > probably be some potion to make it grow back (like when he lost his bones). If he > broke anything or got any cuts/bruises or even a sore throat from the fire > whisky he snuck a sip of there would probably be a remedy. Joj replied: > > Mad Eye Moody has a peg leg and a magical eye. Annemehr: And Professor Kettleburn retired from the CoMC postition to enjoy time with his remaining limbs. Apparently, a detatched body part can't be regrown -- but missing bones can. What could the underlying biological reason for that be, I wonder? The Skele-gro was a fairly recent invention and they haven't been able to achieve Nerve-gro or Muscle-gro yet? Annemehr who was going to use Wormtail's hand as another example but changed her mind as Lord Thingy probably would have done the same thing in any case... From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Oct 16 14:16:12 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:16:12 -0000 Subject: COS clues In-Reply-To: <004801c393e3$0c00e3b0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > > And why is she still using Lockhart's books? That doesn't make sense, so it has to mean something. > Jen: Do you mean, "why is Molly still reading Lockhart's books after he was willing to leave Ginny to die" or "why is she reading them because he's a fraud"? If it's the latter, we're *told* the information in the books is real. In COS, Lockhart says: "There was work involved. I had to track these people down. Ask them exactly how they managed to do what they did." (US, chap. 16, p.298). So Molly could consult them as an accurate resource (if what he said is true). If it's the latter, all I can think is Molly doesn't know about Lockhart's bit in the Chamber. The Weasley's left Dumbledore's office before DD questions Lockhart at the end of COS. The only way Molly would know Lockhart intended to leave Ginny to die and memory-charm the boys is if Ron told her. I could definitely see Ron being disgusted if Molly pulled out a Lockhart book later, and use the opportunity to tell her what a coward and phony Lockhart is. But I could also see him witholding the information so Molly wouldn't be even more worried about her brood. I can't believe Molly would even *own*, let alone consult, a set of Lockhart books if she knew the whole story! Interesting. From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Thu Oct 16 02:40:20 2003 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:40:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gryffindor Staircase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031015223915.026dbe30@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83015 20 Ways for a Boy to go up the Girls' Dormitories Staircase: 1. Flying broomstick. 2. Portkey. 3. Floo powder. 4. Flying motorcycle. 5. Polyjuice Potion. 6. Flying carpet. 7. Dragon. 8. Hippogriff. 9. Thestral. 10. Flying Ford Anglia 11. Peck of owls. 12. Transform into a beetle. 13. Hold a house-elf as it apparates.. 14. Invisibility Cloak. 15. Secret passage. 16. Disillusionment Charm. 17. Phoenix tail. 18. Flying Charm 19. Flying Abraxan horses 20 Charm a girl to carry you. From rredordead at aol.com Thu Oct 16 15:29:34 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:29:34 -0000 Subject: Curious... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83016 Tasha asked: (snip) 1) Since all the DE have a place in Voldemort?s little circle wouldn?t Snape know that Wormtail was a DE? 2) In POA Sirius says on page 272 of the British version, `ready to stike the moment he could be sure of allies...to deliver the last Potter to them.` I am wondering why does it seem that Voldemort wants the whole Potter line squashed? I know this is an ongoing question, but I thought it was intersting that Sirius says, `last Potter?. Now me: To your first question: I believe LV's circle at the end of GoF is the inner core of the DEs only. Perhaps the first to be initiated into the 'Order'. (The Order of Death Eaters that is.) Peter would have been brought in to the fold later, than say Lucius or Bellatrix. Also, it is to LV advantage to keep some of his DE identity a secret from the others, I'm not saying this is true in Peter's case, but the less people know he's a spy the more secure and effective his position is. Does any one know if Peter wears the Dark Mark? In response to your second question Sirius doesn't know about the prophecy and hence he doesn't know that it is Harry specifically who is LV target not necessarily the Potter line. Although that could all change depending on what's in the next 2 books :-). Sirius's just knows that LV murdered James and Lily and subsequently has gone after Harry, and as there are no other siblings, it must seem logical to Sirius to simply believe LV is targeting the whole family not just Harry Potter. Welcome to HPfGU, Mandy From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Thu Oct 16 17:01:33 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:01:33 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor Staircase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fourjays22" wrote: > I was curious what role (if any) people think the Gryffindor > staircase might play in books six and seven. [snip] > Could this be a key location of some sort of final battle if/when LV > enters Hogwarts? [more snips] Excellent question. My thoughts on the staircase: I agree with Richard that it is the role of the staircase is to chastise boys for trying to get up there rather than actually preventing them from doing so. I also agree that the staricase probably is bewitched beyond the steps, that you can't just grab a flying device or disguise yourself as a girl in order to get up there. (I'm sure th Founders thought of these, I am also sure that all girsl dormitories are so bewitched, not just Gryffindor) When I first read this passage I figured that JKR was pointing out something about the workings of relationships at Hogwarts. Thus far we know that people, when they want to be alone, seek out dark places on the grounds, such as the bushes at the Yule Ball. We also know that Harry kissed Cho in the Room of Requirement. Harry hasn't had the chance or need to go making out somewhere on the grounds (yet) so we don't really know other places couples go on a regular basis. The fact that JKR tells us that the girls staircases are bewitched so that boys can't get in there seems significant in that it means a couple needs to go elsewhere to meet in private... hope for the various shippers out there that JKR will bring this up again. ;-) As for a site for later batlles with the Death Eaters, I just don't see this happening. Of all places at HOgwarts, I just don't see our little heros hiding in a girls dormitory, nor do I think LV and Co. would be deterred by it... I could be wrong, of course. I also think this may come into play as a kind of a clue to later mysteries, for example if someone breaks into the girls dormitory in later books, for some reason, and we are led to conclude that it must be a woman, because of the staircase... or some other such ocurrance. I do wonder, however... Prof. McGonagall has gone up to the boys' tower when there's been trouble, for example when Harry got sick after his vision of the snake attacking Mr. Weasley. How do male Heads of House go to help if there's a problem in the girls dormitories? [this is not really important, I guess, I'm just curious =)] Gorda From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 16 17:25:29 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:25:29 -0000 Subject: Regrowing Limbs (Was:Re: book 6 rumor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > And Professor Kettleburn retired from the CoMC postition to enjoy time > with his remaining limbs. Apparently, a detatched body part can't be > regrown -- but missing bones can. What could the underlying biological > reason for that be, I wonder? We have no idea about Prof. Kettleburn, so I don't know what limbs he was missing, or why. Regarding Mad eye Moody, I found that rather puzzling for a while, until I recalled that Moody was an auror and all his injuries were work related (i.e. the result of fighting dark wizard using a whole bunch of illegal dark hexes, curses and charms). It is likely that some injuries are harder to cure than others because of the spell that caused them. Just like Harry's scar cannot be removed because it was the result of a powerfull dark curse. Perhaps it is also the intent of the spell? Moody's injuries were caused by people who wanted to inflict harm on him - and could not be cured. Ditto for Harry's scar. Harry's bones, on the other hand, were removed by a failed charm that was intended (we hope!) to cure his broken bone. In the case of the memory charm that disabled Lockhart (or for that matter Marietta's "sneak" pimples) - both hexes/charms were made explicitely to cause harm - and both were hard to cure. > Annemehr > who was going to use Wormtail's hand as another example but changed > her mind as Lord Thingy probably would have done the same thing in any > case... I think Voldemort promised Wormtail a new hand, but there was a reason for him giving him the silver hand instead of having his own regrown (if it could be done) - that silver hand has a hook somewhere that is to Voldemort's benefit (or so he thinks). Salit From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Thu Oct 16 17:25:29 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:25:29 -0000 Subject: Regrowing Limbs (Was:Re: book 6 rumor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Cassie wrote: > > > But what minimal (or even some major) injury couldn't be fixed by a > night or > > so in the hospital wing? [snip] > > Joj replied: > > > > Mad Eye Moody has a peg leg and a magical eye. > > Annemehr: > > And Professor Kettleburn retired from the CoMC postition to enjoy time > with his remaining limbs. Apparently, a detatched body part can't be > regrown -- but missing bones can. What could the underlying biological > reason for that be, I wonder? The Skele-gro was a fairly recent > invention and they haven't been able to achieve Nerve-gro or > Muscle-gro yet? > Now me: yes, but in St. Mungo's, Mr. Weasley says that there are Muggles there because they lost fingers to those biting doorknobs, and he said they were they for "emergency bone regrowth". so apparently limbs *can* be regrown? why does Moody wear a peg leg then? Maybe it only works with small limbs, like fingers? Gorda From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 17:59:06 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:59:06 -0000 Subject: Regrowing Limbs (Was:Re: book 6 rumor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83020 --- Gorda asked: > why does Moody wear a peg leg then? > Maybe it only works with small limbs, like fingers? > I suspect it is a byproduct of his paranoia. I think he probably would not want any spells used on him, even those that would benefit him, because he could never trust that a helpful spell might not have a sinister rider attached. Constance Vigilance. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Oct 16 18:13:55 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:13:55 +0100 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) Message-ID: <811DFEE7-0004-11D8-9942-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83021 > Nora: ....please feel free to clog my email box with replies... > Kneasy: Email? Much more fun to spread oneself over the site, sprouting fallacies, prejudices and misconceptions from every orifice. After all, a major part of a posters raison d'etre is to entertain, being right is a very minor consideration. (Pause while spasming LOONs regain their composure.) IMO the great sin is to be boring and the character analyses have as much, if not a greater fascination than those of the action bits. > Nora: This may be true, but it's incredibly unfortunate. Corrosive, unending anger, without a target or the impulse to turn it into something corrective, is what makes cynics, and Cynicism is Bad, as I've posted previously before. :) > Kneasy: Sorry, I've missed that one. Can you identify the post, please? You'll not be surprised that I don't agree. Cynicism bad? It's lovely! I've had it for years! Gives one such a satisfying disbelief in the motives and and stated aims of others. A good working definition of a cynic is someone who is disillusioned with the idealism of others; regular readers of my vapid maunderings will know without prompting just what I think of idealists. We agree, I think, that Snape has suffered unquantifiable damage in the past and he needs to act to ease his suffering. What he (or any gravely injured party) seeks is catharsis. This will provide release and closure (horrible word); it is repression that poisons. I contend that he has a target, he just can't get at it. > Nora It strikes me that as of yet we don't really know why Snape is so angry (if he really is), unless you're of the opinion that all of his troubles in life stem from the abuse he suffered at the hands of James and company...I suspect that the story there is more complex than we know as of yet. And Snape? Avatar of Justice? The thought is so tinged with bitter irony as to be almost unthinkable. > Kneasy: I've come up with the reason he's angry; it might not be correct, but it would be compelling motivation for Snape's actions to date. I think James and Co. are just a small part of it. If they were that important there would be no way that Snape would hand in his resignation to the DE Fun Club and work for the Order. Something much bigger and more important has occurred that over-rides his antipathy to James et al. Oh, he still bears a grudge, but it is not the focus of his hatred. > Nora: Snape is a bully. He abuses his power. I was actually less troubled about this before the revelation that he was bullied when he was younger. Now, what right does he have to claim retribution for those wrongs done to him when he has inflicted the same (or worse, because the abuse of a position of power *is* worse) upon others? His behavior of punishing the child from the sins of the father shows profound emotional immaturity and the severe lack of a moral backbone. > Kneasy: Hate to keep mentioning it, but you need to read 69509 to see where I'm coming from. I don't think he does hate Harry; doesn't like him much, but he doesn't like anyone, so that's no big deal. Snape is acting a part, in a John Le Carre spy story it would be his legend. He's partial towards Slytherin, sarcastic, gives low marks, "points from Gryffindor!", right. Now how often does he give 'personal' punishments - detentions and the like? Very, very rarely. Compare and contrast with Umbridge who *really* hates Harry. > Nora: Does that mean that we can cheer when all of the wrongs he's done come back to bite him, too? I, for one, will wait for some more Grand Revelations of backstory, but my intution is telling me that he ain't exactly an innocent himself. > Kneasy: Sevvy's no innocent. Of course you can cheer. I just have a feeling that you won't want to when the moment arrives. But there may be a chance that his death may expiate his wrongs as well as satisfy his thirst for revenge. Won't that be nice? > Laura: I do think, though, that some of Snape's anger is not justified. I'll buy your theory that he's acting with Harry (and enjoying the part immensely), but his anger at James and company was and is real. And that's what I don't think is justified. Canon suggests more than once that James and Snape hated each other from the very first moment they met. Neither seems to have had any reason for this other than instinct. James soon learns that SS is heavy into the dark arts, though, and that gives him a very good reason to hate and mistrust Snape. But what about Snape? It seems entirely personal with him-he doesn't like James because James is arrogant, doesn't follow rules, is popular and good at everything he does. They both find their natural allies and spend the next 7 years tormenting each other, with no clear winner, although James does score big on Snape by saving his life. Then, a few years out of school, James dies and Sirius goes to prison. The game is over and Snape still has tons of rage he hasn't acted on. > Kneasy: There was a thread a few weeks back that delved into this. On top of the mutual instinctive loathing between Snape and James comes the 'Prank". Old Snapey would be feeling very hard done by with the lack of repercussions from this. He himself had done nothing wrong, but Sirius had placed him in very real danger. Was Sirius punished? No. It was all hushed up. To add insult to injury, those in the know regarded James as a hero! Just for trying to cover up Sirius' stupidity! Snape would be absolutely steaming. Justice denied. He probably suspects that James and Sirius were in collusion; he's the injured party, DD tells him to forget it and James ends up looking good. Insufferable! > Laura: But he's angry at everything and everyone all the time because that's just who he is. There can't be any satisfactory resolution because there wasn't any real injury to begin with. That's the sense in which Snape's anger is not a healthy thing. (I"ll get rid of the sandals and beard now.) > Kneasy: It's for the recipient to judge if there has been any real injury. We all have differing personal standards as to what is acceptable and unimportant and what is not. A minor put-down to one may be a festering insult to another. One thing about Snape, he's proud. Never slight a man in his pride; the reaction may not be immediate but it is ineluctable and may be devastating. I like Snape. He's not a nice person but he is satisfying as a character with depth and credibility. I bet he'd go along with 'an eye for an eye' - without anaesthetic. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Thu Oct 16 13:36:57 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (mikaelraaterova) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:36:57 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Population Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83022 Robert Shaw pointed out that the wizarding population isn't steady and wrote: > All this means we can't deduce much from the population of > Hogwarts. I have to disagree. Populations don't change overnight. The only population-affecting event in recent history that we know about is Voldemort's reign of terror. While we don't have figures for the number of dead, it doesn't seem like a genocide, and thus wouldn't have had any overwhelming effect on the population. If JKR says that the number of students at Hogwarts around the time of GoF is about 1000, we can deduce quite a lot. I can't see the WW having wildly changing fertility rates, given that the population explosion in the RW depended on decreased mortality with unchanged, high fertility. When fertility started dropping, the growth stopped, and any growth we see today are in areas where fertility hasn't dropped. I think WW mortality rates and fertility rates have been pretty low for ages. Wizards have lots of healing spells, and I definitely can't see that witches are restricted to a life of breeding and house-wifery. The liberation of women was the significant factor in dropping RW fertility levels, and I'd hazard that witches have always been liberated, with good control of their child-bearing. / Mikael From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 16 18:39:26 2003 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:39:26 -0000 Subject: Will JKR Kill Off Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83023 As part of the story, I don't think JKR is planning to have Harry killed; also I think she looks on him as a son. But if people keep badgering her to write more than the seven books, she might change her mind and kill off Harry at the end. Of course, this might not be enough. When Arthur Conan Doyle got tired of Sherlock Holmes he tried to kill him off, but fans made him write more stories. If the annoyance of fans persuades JKR to kill off little Harry, she might just end up having to write other books set in the Potterverse. So she might as well not bother killing him off. From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Wed Oct 15 12:44:49 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:44:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] COS clues References: <20031016111555.36563.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> <004801c393e3$0c00e3b0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: <004501c3931a$203ff100$6691aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83024 > Joj now: > > I think Molly is definitly the weakest link in the order. She's living in fear, and JKR went to great pains to show us the ecstent (warrented) of her fear. Then it was backed up by Mr. Weasley's horrible injury. She'll definitly be vunerable to being tricked, controlled, blackmailed or making a "deal with the devil". JKR also pointed out how much Molly loves Harry like a son, so I don't think she would sacrifice him for one of her children or husband. At least not knowingly. > > And why is she still using Lockhart's books? That doesn't make sense, so it has to mean something. Iggy here: Well, she COULD be still using his books because, despite how the information in them was obtained, it's still incredibly accurate. (If you found out that JKR actually stole the manuscripts of all her books from someone else, would you actually enjoy them any less? Regardless of who actually wrote them?) Iggy McSnurd the Prankster From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Thu Oct 16 13:02:59 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:02:59 +0200 Subject: wizarding numbers Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031016141232.027ab190@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83025 Newbie Apology: I realize that my original post may have sounded a bit offensive, since i presented my views without reference to earlier efforts on this topic. I simply assumed that the most recent posters that I read were aware of earlier efforts, and formulated my response to what was said in their posts. I am sorry about that. I wrote: > >I've been thinking a bit about the number of wizards, and the posts I > >found when I searched to see what people had already come up with > >weren't satisfying. This is the bit I'm referring to as possibly offensive. I only read the most recent posts, and they seemed to have overlooked a few things. I didn't mean to heap abuse on earlier efforts. My apologies. Anyway. Ffred wrote, in reply to me: >Your assumption about whether it's particularly dangerous to be a wizard is >thought-provoking. One thing that we do know is that although accidents are >more frequent, wizard physique is more robust than muggles so that survival >rates are also high, except in unexpected circumstances such as the >Voldemort rebellion. > >I've suggested to the list that it's reasonable to conclude that the normal >wizard lifespan is roughly twice the muggle one and that therefore the 11-17 >year olds are around 5% of the population. Seems reasonable enough. I think my own reasoning was a bit flawed. Given that people like Marchbanks and Dumbledore are probably not unique (unlike Flamel), the mortality rates need to be waaay high to bring the mean age down to something comparable to UK or Sweden. And i don't see the WW being inordinately lethal. So, your figure should be closer to the truth than mine. >Somewhere (I'm not sure exactly where), JKR has said that 25% of the >Hogwarts students are muggle-born. Very interesting. I can't recall coming across that statement. Does anyone know where it's from? > >Hogwarts' "drainage basin" that would otherwise go to Hogwarts. The > >larger the fraction of non-hogwarts children, the larger the maximum > >population of wizards is. So I assume 50 % to not underestimate the > >pop size. > >Some theories assume that the Hogwarts population is a lot lower than this. Fair enough. Personally, I can't see the attendance being lower than 50 % without making it extremely odd that Hogwarts is the only mentioned school (in the British isles, that is) in the books. Given what you say about the infrastructure in your post, i see a risk of circular reasoning here. Tailoring the calculations to snugly fit the notion of a population larger than a first-glance analysis of the number of students would warrant (such as having a low Hogwarts attendance) is risky. If we design the explanans to fit the explanandum we implicitly assume what we are trying to prove. I'm not saying i don't suffer the same problem; just that it *is* a problem. I'd say that there are hints of the wizarding population being smallish. In relation to the Black's family tree, Sirius talks about all the pure-blood families being interrelated, which may indicate that there are problems in finding pure-blood marriage partners. If pure-bloods are a big fraction of the population, it would point to smallish size. If pure-bloods are few, and half-bloods are a big fraction, it'd still point to a small size, because half-bloods only add one parent to the population. >It's not I think a discussion that will ever generate a consensus! I'll drink to that. An interesting point here is that if JKR *isn't* consistent wrt to issues of populations and wizarding society, then a consensus is in fact impossible. If she *is* consistent, it strikes me that there can very well be explanations for the WW having a small population and yet have an intense infrastructure. If I'm allowed a RW analogy, I'll point out that Putnam's studies of democracy in northern Italy show that small populations can have an extensive and intensive, in terms of the amount of work needed to keep it going, infrastructure if a big enough fraction of the population actively participate in and contribute to it. Also, given magic-as-time-saving-devices and house-elf slave labour, we don't know how much work the infrastructure actually demands. Do I make sense at all, or am I simply deluding myself? / Mikael From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 17:30:00 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:30:00 -0000 Subject: Are we missing the point of the #6 Rumor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83026 > Cassie wrote: > > > But what minimal (or even some major) injury couldn't be fixed by a night or > > so in the hospital wing? I think we are missing the point of this possible quote about book 6. The question shoudn't be what body part gets injured and why can't it be fixed by magic (since we all know there are limitations to what magic can and can't do), IMHO the question should be HOW does poor Harry get this injury? Surely not falling down the stairs at Privet Drive or taking a nosedive off his Firebolt. I think the hint here is that there will be some sort of battle (duh) and that maybe this time Harry will again escape with his life, but may not be so lucky in the future. Or could this possibly be like Luke Skywalker's robotic hand in Star Wars, a weakness that he just has to deal with. This could very well be foreshadowing a Darth Vader is Luke's father type revelation from LV. Oooh, I just shuddered from the possibilites. Dumbledore as Harry's long lost granddad? LV as Harry's even longer lost granddad? Lily as a Slytherin descendant? James as the second to last Gryffindor? Mark Evans a cousin Harry never knew? Who knows. Any thoughts? Meri (who really hopes that Harry won't have to leap off Cloud City to escape from Voldemort this time around) From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 17:39:29 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:39:29 -0000 Subject: Harry and Mark Evans Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83027 I know there has been a lot of speculation about Harry's relationship to Mark Evans, the boy Dudley and his gang beat up in OotP. We find out (for the first time in the books anyway) that Lily's maiden name was Evans in the Pensieve scene in OotP. Knowing JKR's style as we all do, this is probably not a coincidence. My question is this. Is there a cannon reference (JKR's interviews nonwithstanding) that Harry ever knew that his mother's maiden name was Evans before that chapter in OotP? If he did, and even if he didn't, what's to stop him from putting two and two together and poping a few streets over to the Evans' house and seeing if they haven't any flying broomsticks or cauldrons? On the other hand, surely Aunt Petunia would know about them, it is after all her side of the family. Wouldn't her rejection of any contact with the magical world keep her from living so close to family members who knew Lily's true identity? Wouldn't she have pushed them out of her life as she seems to have done with her own parents (living or dead, we don't know)? So, maybe little Mark Evans is just a coincidence? Thoughts? Meri From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 16 18:11:20 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:11:20 -0000 Subject: Copyright and Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83028 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" > BTW, if I were Rita Skeeter, I'd be furious > about the fact that Mr Lovegood had made a lot of money out of an > article that I had worked hard on and for which I hadn't been paid. I > suppose there isn't a copyright law in the WW? That isn't against copyright law. Rita agreed to the arrangement. The idea being the only freaks and struggling writers would want to contribute to paper that couldn't pay them - since they get nothing out of it, excepting a little pride. Rita had little choice. It was her in back to the real press. She benefited and probably made money when she sold her article to the Prophet. But probably the WW has its own regulations regarding the area we call 'intellectual property'. Seeing as how its law is entirely oblivious to any many concepts ingrained in the British Common Law and a part of the British constitution, I would guess that it has a very distinct and foriegn take on ownership of such material. What that could be I have no idea. Golly From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 00:42:37 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:42:37 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: <811DFEE7-0004-11D8-9942-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83029 > Kneasy: > We agree, I think, that Snape has suffered unquantifiable damage in the past and he needs to act to ease his suffering. What he (or any > gravely injured party) seeks is catharsis. This will provide release and closure (horrible word); it is repression that poisons. I contend that he has a target, he just can't get at it. Laura: At the risk of sounding foolish (and not for the first time), do you think that Snape feels that he's suffering? We said several posts back that Snape *is* his anger. He has long ago chosen to make rage, contempt, cruelty and disregard his emotional vocabulary. Other people in the WW suffered exactly what you suggest he did, and yet they can continue to form relationships and take pleasure in the good things of this world. Yes, I agree that Snape seeks catharsis. I wonder, though, what will change about him if and when he gets it. What I'm trying to get at is that I think Snape likes being angry. I'm not sure he perceives it as suffering at all, although we readers do. I don't agree that he's repressing his anger-come on, when does he ever do that? Even if he doesn't verbalize it all, everyone in his vicinity knows when he's about to erupt. What he's suffering from isn't repression but delayed gratification-in other words, frustration. That's understandable. What isn't is his belief that it's appropriate to take it out on the entire world. > Kneasy: > I've come up with the reason he's angry; it might not be correct, but it would be compelling motivation for Snape's actions to date. Laura: I don't think we've scratched the surface when it comes to understanding where Snape's anger comes from. Here's what we do know: he arrives at school already well versed in the dark arts and quickly proceeds to demonstrate his poor social skills by impressing a number of students with his general unpleasantness. And he's sorted into Slytherin, never a good sign. Why would Snape have taken such an early interest in the dark arts? It could be for any number of reasons: a response to fear and/or feelings of being in danger(if that pensieve scene with the crying little boy is in fact from Snapes' childhood), family proclivity, boredom, desire to explore the forbidden-it could be one or a combination of these, or something else entirely. We don't know if Snape was angry when he got to school, but we do know that if he was he had the tools at hand to express it. And we know that he very quickly developed a lot of anger toward 4 students in particular. > Kneasy: > On top of the mutual instinctive loathing between Snape and James comes the 'Prank". Old Snapey would be feeling very hard done by with the lack of repercussions from this. He himself had done nothing wrong, but Sirius had placed him in very real danger. Was Sirius punished? No. It was all hushed up. To add insult to injury, those in the know regarded James as a hero! Just for trying to cover up Sirius' stupidity! Snape would be absolutely steaming. Justice denied. He probably suspects that James and Sirius were in collusion; he's the injured party, DD tells him to forget it and James ends up looking good. Insufferable! Laura: Let's take another look at this prank and Snape's reaction to it. We've seen a couple of instances in which James got the better of Sevvie. But what makes us think that the reverse never happened? I think it had to have been pretty equal provocation on both sides. For one thing, we know that Snape is a very bright and talented wizard. Already at school he had expertise in the dark arts, and we can assume from remarks made about him in canon that he had a lot of talent in other magical areas as well. So he wouldn't have to take James's hexes lying down. Moreover, my assessment of James and Sirius is that if Snape couldn't stand up to them, they wouldn't have expended so much time and energy trying to knock him down. It was the challenge as well as the emotion involved that drove all of them. If Snape hadn't been able to give as much as he got, the Marauders would have regarded him as a minor inconvenience at best and a joke at worst. So we have a very hostile relationship in which James and Snape take every opportunity to harass each other. (See note below about Sirius's role in this relationship.) We also know that Snape followed MWPP around trying to find out things that were in no way, shape or form his business. Now we come to the night of the prank. Snape, who is already crossing privacy boundaries, decides to follow the advice of the last person in the world to whom he should have given any credence. Snape isn't stupid. He deliberately decides to follow Sirius's suggestion. He leaves the dormitory after hours and follows Remus and a staff member clearly engaged in private activity. And when he gets caught and has to be ignominiously rescued, he decides that *he's* the victim?! If he'd minded his own business in the first place and used a millimeter of common sense he wouldn't have found himself in that tunnel. Who did something against school rules? Remus? No, of course not. James? No, of course not. Sirius? No- he did something unkind but what school rules did he break? It was Severus and only Severus who was out of line that night. He was lucky DD didn't punish *him*. > > Kneasy: > It's for the recipient to judge if there has been any real injury. > We all have differing personal standards as to what is acceptable and unimportant and what is not. A minor put-down to one may be a festering insult to another. One thing about Snape, he's proud. Never slight a man in his pride; the reaction may not be immediate but it is ineluctable and may be devastating. > Laura: Yes, the perception of injury lies with the injured person-but only to an extent. The reasonable person principle has to kick in somewhere. Snape is so angry and insecure that he takes everything as an insult except craven obedience-his reaction to Lily in Pensieve 2 is an example. If every interaction you try is met with hostility, the attempts will soon cease-as witness Lily. Yet no one did anything to Snape that he wasn't willing and able to do to them first. What makes him think that he's the only proud person around? He seems to regard everyone else on the planet with feelings ranging from indifference-if he really likes you-to savage cruelty. Injury isn't a one-way event. If Snape can't see that he hurts people, those people are not likely to be overly concerned about his sensitivities. Kneasy: > I like Snape. He's not a nice person but he is satisfying as a > character with depth and credibility. I bet he'd go along with 'an eye for an eye' - without anaesthetic. > Laura: Love him or hate him, you can't help but be fascinated by our Professor Snape. And I definitely love *and* hate him. Laura: Note: What about Sirius? That's an interesting question. We get the idea that Snape hates him because of the prank in particular. During the Pensieve 2 scene Sirius is the catalyst and throws in a bit of wand work, but James is the primary actor against Snape. Even after Snape knows how Harry feels about Sirius, if he wants to infuriate Harry, he insults James. So my guess is that Sirius was not the one who did most of the Snape-cursing. He may have played the part of James's second. When Sirius talks about Snape, his tone always sounds dismissive to me, so I imagine that Sirius wouldn't have bothered about Snape if James hadn't been in the picture. That's my take on it anyhow. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Fri Oct 17 00:56:18 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:56:18 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor Staircase In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031015223915.026dbe30@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Phil Vlasak wrote: > 20 Ways for a Boy to go up the Girls' Dormitories Staircase: > 1. Flying broomstick. > 2. Portkey. > 3. Floo powder. > 4. Flying motorcycle. > 5. Polyjuice Potion. > 6. Flying carpet. > 7. Dragon. > 8. Hippogriff. > 9. Thestral. > 10. Flying Ford Anglia > 11. Peck of owls. > 12. Transform into a beetle. > 13. Hold a house-elf as it apparates.. > 14. Invisibility Cloak. > 15. Secret passage. > 16. Disillusionment Charm. > 17. Phoenix tail. > 18. Flying Charm > 19. Flying Abraxan horses > 20 Charm a girl to carry you. 1) As per Arya's original suggestion. Works for me. 2) Use an unregistered Portkey? Isn't that illegal? You'll have MoM officials breathing down your neck within minutes. Sure hope it was worth it. 3) Don't think there are hearths in the dormitory rooms themselves. 4) The girl in question will still have to open the window. Which brings us back to: girls are more trustworthy than boys. 5) Fine, you're upstairs. But now you look like a girl. If your girl isn't into that lesbian stuff, this might get awkward. 6) Succes! see 1. 7) That is, if the dragon doesn't eat you first. 8) Sorry, see 4. 9) Sorry, see 4. 10) Oh, you have your own flying car. Why didn't you say so in the first place? Come right in. 11) Mailing yourself to the girls dormitory, clever. I wonder how many owls it takes to carry a fifteen year old boy? 12) Succes! see 1. 13) Congratulations, you're now in the kitchen. Cream-cake? 14) Doubt if the stairs would be fooled by that. 15) Start tapping bricks, Sherlock. 16) Sorry, see 14. 17) Dumbledore did say phoenixes were highly useful pets. Now we know where that twinkle in his eyes comes from. 18) Succes! see 1. 19) Sorry, see 4. 20) Not only are you back to the basic problem that girls are more trustworthy than boys, this will probably also limit the choice of girls to the likes of Millicent Bulstrode. 7 out of 20, not bad. But then 5 out of those 7 are just variants of flying upstairs. -Maus From meltowne at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 02:28:00 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 02:28:00 -0000 Subject: a lurker speaks - Snape's bias In-Reply-To: <005201c39353$80baf2d0$f0936751@yourq7fwqx3ncp> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alison Williams" wrote: > > I've just finished re-re-reading OoP and some things struck me this time > (as either sad or funny or significant) that didn't before. Apologies > if they've been discussed in depth in a batch of posts I missed (I can't > keep up!). > > Chapter 15 - "'Reparo,' Harry muttered, pointing his wand at the broken > pieces of china. They flew back together, good as new, but there was no > returning the Murtlap essence to the bowl." > > Irreversable loss is such a strong theme and this is such a wonderfully > understated image for it and for the limits of magic. Especially as > Murtlap essence is used to sooth pain. > > Chapter 20 - "Harry looked right back, an expression of innocent > determination on his face." > > Because this so perfectly sums up Harry. > > Chapter 21 - "'You're a r-really good teacher, you know,' said Cho, with > a watery smile. 'I've never been able to Stun anything before." > > What - not even Cedric? > > But this is the one that seems to me to have some potentially serious > implications for future developments. > > Chapter 24 - "Snape had struck before Harry was ready, before he had > even begun to summon any force of resistance. The office swam in front > of his eyes and vanished; image after image was racing through his mind > like a flickering film so vivid it blinded him to his surroundings. He > was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle, and his heart was > bursting with jealousy: he was nine, and Ripper the bulldog was chasing > him up a tree and the Dursleys were laughing below on the lawn: he was > sitting under the Sorting Hat, and it was telling him he would do well > in Slytherin: " > [My emphasis.] > > Knowing how JKR likes to note significant things in a casual mention > that you overlook, until it hits you on a later reading, I tend to study > this sort of passage with suspicion. Snake woundn't have known that the > Sorting Hat seriously considered putting Harry in Slytherin. Harry has > very deliberately never told anyone except Dumbledore, and I can't see > Dumbledore betraying such a confidence. How might this effect Snape's > attitude to him? Given his outrageous bias towards the members of > Slytherin House might it draw out - eventually - some grudging respect > to know that the Hat was of the opinion that Harry 'would have done well > in Slytherin'? > > Going back into lurkdom now. > > Alison > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 02:54:05 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 02:54:05 -0000 Subject: Harry and Mark Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83032 Meri wrote- > I know there has been a lot of speculation about Harry's relationship > to Mark Evans, the boy Dudley and his gang beat up in OotP. We find > out (for the first time in the books anyway) that Lily's maiden name > was Evans in the Pensieve scene in OotP. Knowing JKR's style as we > all do, this is probably not a coincidence. My question is this. Is > there a cannon reference (JKR's interviews nonwithstanding) that > Harry ever knew that his mother's maiden name was Evans before that > chapter in OotP? If he did, and even if he didn't, what's to stop him > from putting two and two together and poping a few streets over to > the Evans' house and seeing if they haven't any flying broomsticks or > cauldrons? > We know it's probably too good to be a coincidence, but from Harry's point of view there is no reason to be suspicious of anyone named Evans. It is a common surname name, as is Potter or Granger. Harry has been maddeningly uninterested in his parents or family for the most part, even if they are all allegedly dead. Plus Harry knew Mark enough to know how old he was so Harry may have figured that if the other Evans family were anything to him something would have been said by somebody. I can only assume that JKR is saving any revelations of interest up for Books 6 & 7. I think Mark Evans will play a bigger role especially since JKR had James call Lily almost exclusively by her last name, driving home the Evans connection for those who didn't know about it. We can only wait and see. And speculate like mad. Olivia From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Fri Oct 17 03:23:12 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:23:12 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Curious... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031017032313.99781.qmail@web41205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83033 --- ghinghapuss wrote: > Tasha asked: (snip) 1) Since all the DE have a place in Voldemorts little circle wouldnt Snape know that Wormtail was a DE? Me: Not if he's known as "Wormtail" instead of "Peter"/"Pettigrew". Maybe the marauders never used their nickname in front of others. When Sirius was accused of betraying the Potters, Snape probably thought that Wormtail is Sirius, which is why he suspected that the marauders map is full of dark magic. Mandy (ghinghapuss) asked: Does any one know if Peter wears the Dark Mark? Me: He does. Voldemort touch his mark in GoF, to call the other DEs. Just my 0.5 knut Vinnia http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Thu Oct 16 21:06:27 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:06:27 +0100 Subject: Wizarding Population References: Message-ID: <199701c39429$ca7374c0$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83034 > Robert Shaw wrote: >> All this means we can't deduce much from the population of >> Hogwarts. (because there can have been major changes >> in demographics.) mikaelraaterova wrote: > I have to disagree. Populations don't change overnight. The only > population-affecting event in recent history that we know about > is Voldemort's reign of terror. For these purposes, the 1890's are recent history. The muggle population structure is still showing the effects of WWII, fifty years later. Given their longer lifespans, the wizarding population will be directly affected by events as far back as 1875-1900. Furthermore, since a significant proportion (currently about 25%) of wizards are muggle born, any change in muggle demographics will have a knock-on effect on wizard demographics. Fewer muggles born in 1914-19 means fewer muggle-born wizards, hence fewer wizards in total, and so on. > If JKR says that > the number of students at Hogwarts around the time of GoF is > about 1000, we can deduce quite a lot. > > I can't see the WW having wildly changing fertility rates, given > that the population explosion in the RW depended on decreased > mortality with unchanged, high fertility. When fertility started > dropping, the growth stopped, After a time lag. It takes a few decades for people to notice the infant death rates have dropped. The wizardly birth rate fall may be within wizardly living memory. The muggle birth rate fall certainly is, which has consequences. There will have been a period when muggles had larger families than wizards. If say, between 1850 and 1920, the average muggle had four children to a wizard's two, then there will have been twice the number of wizards born to muggles during those seventy years than you'd expect from extrapolating the current Hogwarts demographics, and almost all those wizards would still be alive today. This scenario alone could easily produce 10-30% more adult wizards than implied by the size of Hogwarts. An increase in wizard life expectancy over the same period would further boost the adult wizard population. Quite simply, deductions from the student population of Hogwarts are only valid if nothing has changed for an entire wizardly lifespan, but we know the muggle-born wizard population must have changed significantly in just the last fifty years, a comparatively short period. Of course, this does have other consequences. In the 60's, when the muggle baby boom reached Hogwarts age, the fraction of muggle-borns will have surged, increasing the resentment of the pure-blood snobs, and helping create the right climate for Voldemort's first rise to power. -- Robert From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Oct 17 03:25:39 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 03:25:39 -0000 Subject: Copyright and Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > > That isn't against copyright law. Rita agreed to the arrangement. > The idea being the only freaks and struggling writers would want to > contribute to paper that couldn't pay them - since they get nothing > out of it, excepting a little pride. Rita had little choice. It was > her in back to the real press. > > She benefited and probably made money when she sold her article to > the Prophet. > Sue B: Ah, but we can't assume she did get any money for the Prophet re- print! All we were told was that Luna Lovegood and her dad were going off to look for the Crumple-horned whatsit with the money Mr L had been paid for the article. *He* sold it. Now, copyright may be different in the wizard world, which is what I wondered, but in the real world, you can scribble on a piece of paper and it's copyright. You at least have to give permission for a reprint. There are exceptions, of course - the journalists from an Australian newspaper, the Age, went on strike several years ago because the paper was re- printing their work on CD ROM and not paying them a cent, but at least they had been paid for the original articles and they were working for the paper at the time. I'd still be mad as hell if someone reprinted without my permission *and* made money on the deal! Oh, well, maybe by the next book Rita Skeeter will be back on board at the Prophet, being a bit more careful, because Hermione still knows her secret. From evankimjeff at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 22:17:03 2003 From: evankimjeff at yahoo.com (KIM MACKLIN) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lockhart/Longbottoms Message-ID: <20031016221703.14559.qmail@web14905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83036 There was a post regarding the reappearance of Gilderoy Lockhart. I think JKR added him into the mix because she wanted to get Bode's name mentioned again and also drop a hint about the Longbottoms. I thought it was interesting that a "healer" would give a patient the Devil's Snare. Sounds a bit suspisious to me. Remember Lucius Malfoy gives generously to St. Mungo's. Also on pg. 514 there is a mention of Mr. Longbottom giving Neville an ..."empty Droobles Blowing Gum wrapper." I think there is some message in that. Alice it seems gives Neville many things. She may be trying to communicate something to him. What I don't know since we only have one clue the bubble gum. I don't think Lockhart will be a part of further books, unless he is put under the Imperius curse, he seems the type that could be controlled very easily. I think she just put him in there because we knew he was in St. Mungo's and would be in the ward with the Longbottoms. Anyway, any thoughts on the Longbottoms and the very incompetent (lol) medical staff? KIM From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Fri Oct 17 03:32:16 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:32:16 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Regrowing Limbs (Was:Re: book 6 rumor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031017033216.48951.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83038 Gorda asked: why does Moody wear a peg leg then? Me : As a reminder to himself to be vigilant? As a reminder to others the price of battling evil? As a reminder to others to be vigilant? Or probably limb can only be regrown if treated immediately? I have a strong suspicion that Moody didn't lose his leg in a battle, but rather in an accident with a wand in jeans pocket ;-) He was probably to embarassed to go to a healer immediately. Just a thought. Vinnia http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Thu Oct 16 19:13:48 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:13:48 -0400 Subject: Angry Snape / St. Hedwig Message-ID: <002001c39419$a08882a0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83039 There have been several recent postings regarding Snape with which I would like to disagree. One person wrote that they were disgusted that Snape, having been bullied, had become a bully. There were also several postings to the effect that Snape is an angry being who, if deprived of his anger, would no longer be Snape. I disagree very much with both statements. First of all, it is a classic symptom displayed by abused victims to repeat what was done to them. This is accurate from the psychological point of view. Secondly, Snape's anger means that he is also capable of deep love. The fact that Snape can feel deeply means that he can both suffer and care deeply. I find myself sympathizing at times with him because very often he is right: for example, scolding Harry in PoA about sneaking into town when they are all trying to protect him, or Lupin's refusal to admit certain information about Sirius' animagus abilities to DD, or when he states that Potter must be behind Sirius' escape. Snape is right, but people refuse to listen to him because he speaks with such hatred and anger. This adds to his frustration( it would for me, anyway), that no one will listen to him when he knows he is right. I am the mother of 6 boys and 3 girls. When one of them comes home and starts being mean to his younger siblings, I know something is wrong. I separate the guilty party into a separate room, and if possible, establish some physical contact, such as sitting next to one another, with perhaps my arm around his shoulder. With the older ones this can be difficult. Eventually, I can get them to talk about what is bothering them, and it is as if a poison is released. The household atmosphere changes and we can deal with whatever is really going on. I find myself wishing there was someone who really cared for Snape, snarls ,greasy hair and all, who would really listen to him and care for him. To me, he is a very lonely person, and he has made himself to be very unattractive. The mother in me wants to do some mothering for him. St. Hedwig Today, Oct. 16, St. Hedwig is remembered in Catholic churches. She was born in Bavaria around the year 1174. She married a prince of Silesia and they had 7 children. She led a most devoted life, looking after the poor and the sick, and founding hospitals for them. When her husband died, she entered the monastery of Trebnitz and died there in 1243Quote taken from the MAGNIFICAT prayer magazine. I thought, given the prominence of Hedwig the owl, people might enjoy hearing about St. Hedwig. Mary Jo From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 01:39:34 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:39:34 -0000 Subject: The Second Rebuttal (Was Re: Pippin you've done it again!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83040 Because of length, I'm only going to include the preceding comment. For the complete debate, see post #82913. (I also lost the message when I tried to post, so I'm trying to reconstruct it -- hope it makes sense!) > KathyK: It's true, Lupin can't help being what he is. Recall, though, while at Hogwarts he and his friends spent numerous full moons running freely around the grounds and in the forest. Lupin even says, 'And there were near misses, many of them.' (PoA, US paperback 355) If he were really concerned about the safety of others he would have remained in the Shrieking Shack. > They endangered students, teachers, and the inhabitants of nearby Hogsmeade. That's a great many people. How many years did this go on? The point is that even though he knew what he was and how dangerous it was he refused to take the precautions to ensure he didn't hurt anyone. And it wasn't up to his friends to get him to do what was right. They can't be blamed for his poor choices. AP: Maybe not. But they can certainly share the blame. Lupin evidently tried to hide the fact he was a werewolf from his friends. He made up excuses to cover his monthly disappearances (PoA, p. 354). However, James and Sirius (I'm assuming it was them, not Peter) figured out the mystery and set out on their own to learn how to become illegal Animagi. Then they "sneaked out of the castle every month under James' Invisibility Cloak . . .They would then slip down the tunnel and join me" (p. 354). Judging from the scene in OoP (p. 645) -- which was the same year they finally worked out the Animagus transformation -- it was James and Sirius, not Lupin, who served as the catalysts for the full moon excursions. Remember also that they were teenagers. Given the reality of peer pressure, how mature would Lupin have to be to refuse to go with his friends after they've gone to so much trouble to be with him during his miserable time as a werewolf? We can see from the real (Muggle) world that teens in a group (or pair) will often do terrible things they would never do alone. > KathyK: . . . but Dumbledore hadn't gone to great lengths to help the others. Lupin was the only one who wouldn't have been allowed at the school because of his condition. Dumbledore got him in and kept his secret. (snip) Lupin's disregard for what Dumbledore did for him so that he could have some fun with his friends is a greater betrayal of trust than the other three. (snip) Lupin's explanation doesn't cut it. It makes him an awful coward if he's not evil. To put the entire population of Hogwarts in danger, especially Harry, because he was *ashamed* that he'd betrayed Dumbledore's trust is ridiculous. If he were so ashamed, why not atone for it by coming clean about Sirius being an animagus? And he knew Sirius wasn't evil because he's evil himself. ;-) AP: Not to be repetitive, but peer pressure would play a role in this as well. Add to that the fact that Lupin had probably been isolated ever since being bitten and that he finally had friends. ". . .I was happier than I had ever been in my life. For the first time ever, I had friends, three great friends" (p. 354). To tell Dumbledore that his friends were illegal Animagi would have been to risk losing their friendship. The teen years are the period of life when friends are most important, so I think it is understandable that Lupin wasn't willing to go back to being isolated (and imagine how James and Sirius would have treated him for ratting on them!). As an adult, Lupin admits to being a coward, and he's undoubtedly suffered a lot of cognitive dissonance over keeping this information from Dumbledore. But people *will* find some way to justify themselves, especially when it comes to maintaining their standing with someone important to them. > KathyK: What I believe Doxy is trying to communicate is that there must be some reason that they suspected Lupin might be the spy. As in he must have done something to cause them to become suspicious. AP: Not necessarily. I don't think James ever considered anyone other than Sirius to be Secret-Keeper. After all, they were the closest of friends. "You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers . . . Inseparable! (PoA, p. 204). Then Sirius (I'm betting on his own) decided to "change to Peter at the last moment" (p. 365). Sirius does say he thought Lupin was the spy (p. 373), but that could have been by a process of elimination rather than because Lupin had done anything suspicious: "Someone close to the Potters has been giving LV information about them, It's not me, Peter is a "weak, talentless thing" (p. 369) that even LV would have no use for, that leaves Lupin." > Doxy: (Side note: Why is Lupin's name so conspicuously absent during the discussion between McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid, & Fudge at the 3 broomsticks? He doesn't even get an honorable mention. He was working at the school, it's not like they could have just forgotten about him.) AP: Lupin is mentioned by implication as part of the "little gang" James and Sirius led (PoA, p. 204). The story then moves into events that Lupin wasn't involved with -- the Secret-keeper, the Potters' murder -- so there was no reason to mention him. (for another reason, see post #82958) > Salit: He is the one who stops Harry from running after Sirius.< > KathyK: Yes, because he thought Harry still had the prophecy and he didn't want to lose that. Besides by that point Dumbledore had turned toward the dais and seen Sirius. It would have blown Lupin's cover to just let Harry go running into the archway if he could stop it. AP: If Lupin knows that Harry is the "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord," it makes complete sense for him to stop Harry from running through the archway to his death (assuming that's what would happen). (The next couple of comments dealt with whether Lupin killed Sirius, a topic that has been discussed thoroughly in other posts, and I have nothing to add.) > Salit: Lupin's role in the group was to look out for the kids. > KathyK: Or he knew the kids were the ones who had the prophecy. And he didn't want to lose that so he chose the role of looking out for them so he could get his hands on it. AP: Sirius tells Harry to leave twice before Lupin does (see p. 803, OoP), so it seems clear the Order members just want the kids out of the way during the battle so they won't get hurt. > >Salit (who knows she can't convince anyone but decided to respond anyway) > > KathyK (who knows she won't convince Salit but is having lots of fun discussing it) AP (This *is* fun -- I'm having to think carefully about all my assumptions!) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 08:27:28 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:27:28 -0000 Subject: Angry people (was : Re: Angry Snape / St. Hedwig) In-Reply-To: <002001c39419$a08882a0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83042 Mary Jo Neyer" wrote: Snape is right, but people refuse to listen to him because he speaks with such hatred and anger. This adds to his frustration( it would for me, anyway), that no one will listen to him when he knows he is right. Del comments : Absolutely. I could also feel his frustration at times. But the most interesting thing is what happens if you replace Snape by Harry in these sentences (and take away the hatred part, Harry's not there yet) : "Harry is right, but people refuse to listen to him because he speaks with such anger. This adds to his frustration( it would for me, anyway), that no one will listen to him when he knows he is right." Does that ring a bell ? Mary Jo also said : First of all, it is a classic symptom displayed by abused victims to repeat what was done to them. This is accurate from the psychological point of view. And Del adds : Harry demonstrates a tendency to do just that too. The way he yells at his friends, for example. Of course, I am aware of the BIG differences between Snape and Harry, namely : Snape is an adult in charge, Harry is still a kid being pushed around by adults. But still, when I look at Snape and then at Harry, I find the similarities frightening. Del From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 12:52:42 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:52:42 -0000 Subject: Remus on the Hogwarts express (better late than never?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83043 While rereading sections of PoA last night, a light bulb went on in my head. Okay, it's a very dim bulb-I know this is several years after the fact. I did try an archive search, with the usual results. Remus was on the train because DD wanted him there, wasn't he? It wasn't because he couldn't get there any other way or was too poor to own a broomstick or anything else. DD suspected that there might be a dementor invasion, knowing as he does that the dementors don't respect boundaries very well. Whether Remus was supposed to watch out for Harry in particular or to keep things under control in general, I don't know. It's coincidence that HRH ended up in the same compartment with Remus. Although I still don't buy Kneasy's theory that DD planted Remus at Hogwarts to draw Sirius out, I'm beginning to think that maybe that appointment had more than one reason. DD might have wanted someone at Hogwarts who could provide advice and support for Harry if DD was otherwise occupied. Remus and Harry were developing a trusting relationship throughout PoA; Had Snape not outed Remus, DD's plan would have worked. Laura, who feels on the verge of discovering something important about what happens when you add one and one... From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Oct 17 13:09:27 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:09:27 -0000 Subject: Crouch jr - translation mistake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83044 I had a note from my house elf informing me that I probably made a translation mistake in a previous post - and she was right. I posted a theory (#82981) on Tonks attending DE-meetings metamorphed into Barty "Ferm" jr. Im sorry. Ferm is his name in the danish translation and I forgot that his real name of course is Barty Crouch jr. This should set any confusion - that might have been - in order. Inge From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 13:56:52 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 06:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: COS clues Message-ID: <20031017135652.97186.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83045 17October2003 Joj wrote: "I think Molly is definitly the weakest link in the order. She's living in fear ..." Jen wrote: "...we're *told* the information in the books is real. In COS, Lockhart says: "There was work involved. I had to track these people down. Ask them exactly how they managed to do what they did." (US, chap. 16, p.298). So Molly could consult them as an accurate resource (if what he said is true)." Granny responds: Good points! Seems to me that JKR is trying to convey to us the extent of Molly's fear and worry, her desperation. Granted, she may not seem such a strong link in the chain, but SOMETHING is nagging at Molly and we can see by her nervous erratic behaviour that she can't quite put a finger on it; but she knows somethings not right; part of the puzzle is missing. Hence, she's digging for clues regardless of any knowledge that she may or may not have about Lockhart's deeds. Surly this must be significant. I for one am convinced that there are plenty of clues in Book 2 as well as others that are staring us right in the face. For example, in Book 2 (if memory serves me right) we meet Crookshanks, the cat. He is described as bandy legged and ginger colored, and Ron notes the strange shape of his face. In Book 4, there is a similar description of Mundungus--bandy legged and having reddish hair, and a description of his strange features. Also in Book 4, we are reintroduced to Mundungus along with Arabella, cat lover. Excuse the expression, but I smell a rat. JKR is up to something here. Anybody have any ideas? Granny --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 15:27:26 2003 From: molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lockhart/Longbottoms In-Reply-To: <20031016221703.14559.qmail@web14905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031017152726.16659.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83046 --- KIM MACKLIN wrote: > There was a post regarding the reappearance of > Gilderoy Lockhart. I think JKR added him into the > mix because she wanted to get Bode's name mentioned > again and also drop a hint about the Longbottoms. I > thought it was interesting that a "healer" would > give a patient the Devil's Snare. Sounds a bit > suspisious to me. Remember Lucius Malfoy gives > generously to St. Mungo's. Also on pg. 514 there > is a mention of Mr. Longbottom giving Neville an > ..."empty Droobles Blowing Gum wrapper." I think > there is some message in that. Alice it seems gives > Neville many things. She may be trying to > communicate something to him. What I don't know > since we only have one clue the bubble gum. > > I don't think Lockhart will be a part of further > books, unless he is put under the Imperius curse, he > seems the type that could be controlled very easily. > I think she just put him in there because we knew > he was in St. Mungo's and would be in the ward with > the Longbottoms. > > Anyway, any thoughts on the Longbottoms and the very > incompetent (lol) medical staff? I've been thinking about this since the original post (COS Clues). My theory has always been that Lucius is funneling money into St.Mungo's to keep certain people (The Longbottoms and maybe others) from ever getting better. Then, the fact that Mrs. Longbottom has given Neville "enough of them [Droobles Blowing Gum wrappers]to paper your bedroom"(US 515) makes me pretty sure that it's some sort of sign. I think that the staff is either putting some kind of memory charm or potion in the gum to keep them from getting better. Mrs. Longbottom is giving Neville the wrappers hoping he'll realize that there's something wrong with the gum. This is where I see Lockhart coming in. The healer says "we very much hope that this liking for giving autographs is a sign that his memory might be coming back a little bit." So I think that Lockhart will continue to improve and they'll release him. His memory will continue to get better and he'll start remembering things that were going on in St. Mungos like the idiot giving Broderick a Devil's Snare and the cause of the Longbottom's incapacity to get better. Any thoughts? ~Kathryn ===== "Difference of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.-Dumbledore,GoF "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that."-Dumbledore-SS Ron: "Well, I had one that I was playing Quidditch the other night...what d'you reckon that means? Harry:"Probably that you're going to be eaten by a giant marshmallow or something." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From s_karmol at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 15:41:16 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:41:16 -0000 Subject: Crouch jr - translation mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > I had a note from my house elf informing me that I probably made a > translation mistake in a previous post - and she was right. > > I posted a theory (#82981) on Tonks attending DE-meetings metamorphed > into Barty "Ferm" jr. > Im sorry. Ferm is his name in the danish translation and I forgot > that his real name of course is Barty Crouch jr. > > This should set any confusion - that might have been - in order. > > Inge I tried to post about this the other day, but ran into "sending" problems. In regards to your thought that Tonks could be pretending to be Barty Crouch Jr...I don't think it's possible. Her talents only allow her features to change, not her personality. Tonks is REALLY clumsy...there's no way she'd be able to fool V or the DE on looks alone. Thanks! Stephanie From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Oct 17 15:43:45 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:43:45 -0000 Subject: Lockhart/Longbottoms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber wrote: > > I've been thinking about this since the original post > (COS Clues). My theory has always been that Lucius is > funneling money into St.Mungo's to keep certain people > (The Longbottoms and maybe others) from ever getting > better. Then, the fact that Mrs. Longbottom has given > Neville "enough of them [Droobles Blowing Gum > wrappers]to paper your bedroom"(US 515) makes me > pretty sure that it's some sort of sign. Jen: Practically every canon interpretation possible on the Longbottoms,et al, is in the TBAY--SILK GOWNS and accompanying post 80761 (I recently reviewed these for questions on the Longbottoms--The posts are very thorough): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80592 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80761 Hopefully these will post as links, although Yahoo has been acting very strange the past couple of days--I've lost two posts so far. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 17 16:45:24 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:45:24 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <002401c3927c$ddc23c40$dde76151@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83049 --- "manawydan" wrote: (snipped) > Mario created a poll : > > > > Book 7 Body-Count Poll (created by Mario Pitre): Whom do > > you believe is likely to be dead by the end > > of Book 7? (Choose as many as you like.) > > > There wasn't an option for "someone else"! > > But I would vote very strongly for Arabella Figg to cark it, by the > end of book 6 even if not book 7. > > Hint 1 - she's ...in Little Whinging keeping an eye on Harry > Hint 2 - we're told a squib is going to do magic in (and I > may be misquote) "desperate circumstances" in a later volume > Cheers > > Ffred (who also sees a vulture on Percy's shoulder ready for the > next volume...) My money is on SUSAN BONES. As early as PS/SS in the Leaky Cauldron, Hagrid mentioned "some o' the best witches an' wizards of the age -- the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts." In OOtP (chap9), Moody says "That's Edgar Bones, they got him and his family, too, he was a great wizard." So if LV is the Heir of Slytherin; Harry is the descendant of Gryffindor; Susan may be the heir of Hufflepuff which is why her family was targetted. ~aussie~ From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Fri Oct 17 17:22:54 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:22:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] COS clues References: <20031017135652.97186.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c394d3$4cd4ca50$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 83050 Granny wrote: I for one am convinced that there are plenty of clues in Book 2 as well as others that are staring us right in the face. For example, in Book 2 (if memory serves me right) we meet Crookshanks, the cat. He is described as bandy legged and ginger colored, and Ron notes the strange shape of his face. In Book 4, there is a similar description of Mundungus--bandy legged and having reddish hair, and a description of his strange features. Also in Book 4, we are reintroduced to Mundungus along with Arabella, cat lover. Excuse the expression, but I smell a rat. JKR is up to something here. Anybody have any ideas? Joj writes: I think cats must be important. We start out in PS/SS with McGonagall as a cat at Privit Dr. We also have Mrs. Figg with all her cats and Filch with Mrs. Norris. In COS we have Hermione turning into a cat. Why? There was no need to do this and really didn't serve a purpose. Hermione could have gone with the boys to see Draco, and nothing would have changed, or she could have planned all along to just have the boys go. I think this might be one of the important COS clues. Remember Steven Kloves said in the COS DVD that he wanted to leave something out and JKR said he had to leave it in. It certainly could have been left out easilyand not changed a thing. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Oct 17 18:22:48 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:22:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] COS clues Message-ID: <90.3db97ed2.2cc18d78@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83054 In a message dated 10/17/2003 12:25:09 PM Central Standard Time, Granny wrote: > for one am convinced that there are plenty of clues in Book 2 as well as > others that are staring us right in the face. For example, in Book 2 (if > memory serves me right) we meet Crookshanks, the cat. He is described as bandy > legged and ginger colored, and Ron notes the strange shape of his face. In > Book 4, there is a similar description of Mundungus--bandy legged and having > reddish hair, and a description of his strange features. Also in Book 4, we are > reintroduced to Mundungus along with Arabella, cat lover. Excuse the > expression, but I smell a rat. JKR is up to something here. Anybody have any > ideas? > Actually it was book 3 when we met Crookshanks, and I hope we don't have any more unregistered Animagi showing up. Its a little over done. Speaking of over done "Ollivander's" anagrams into 2 phrases. (1) Ronald lives and (2) Ronald's evil (the second one even makes use of the apostrophe mark). Either way I don't believe that Ollivander's having anagrams is coincidental. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dwoodward at towson.edu Fri Oct 17 19:28:48 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Woodward, Deirdre) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:28:48 -0400 Subject: Harry/Snape similarities (was Angry people) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83055 *start of snip* Del writes: But still, when I look at Snape and then at Harry, I find the similarities frightening. *end of snip* Are you kidding me? The idea of Harry and Snape being similar in any but coincidental ways is so outrageous that I can only think you are being deliberately provocative. The two characters are hero and foil, and, as such, are a study in contrasts. Harry is an orphan raised by relatives who, while they dislike him, dote on their son. Harry feels in his own heart that his parents loved him dearly. Snape was raised by parents whose fighting and parental techniques left him permanently scarred. Harry didn't know he was a wizard until he was 11. Snape, we can presume by his position as head of Slytherin, is wizard-born. Harry arrived at school knowing no one and in 60 days makes close and lasting friendships. Snape is described as a loner, and to this day has no friends mentioned in the books. He alienates almost everyone he comes into contact with. In COS, Harry is disliked by fellow classmates because they fear his powers. Harry responds by feeling bad for himself but focuses on his homework, stays out of people's way, and eventually shows his schoolmates -- through an unselfish act of heroism -- that their distrust of him was unfounded. Snape is disliked by his classmates and his fellow employees, and his response is to study the dark arts, belittle people, and thoroughly earn his reputation as a mean, angry person. When given a chance, Snape attempts to rig outcomes to his advantage (Quidditch match in SS/PS, awarding and taking away house points without real reason). Harry is kind to his fellow classmates, although at times he certainly attempts to circumvent the attentions of the Creevys. Snape is mean to most people, except fellow Slytherins. Harry likes working in groups and has a network of friends who care deeply about him. In the development of those friendships, Harry encounters conflict and is willing to resolve that conflict so the friendship continues. Snape works in a group of people but doesn't appear to have any friends. Snape is a proven traitor to his friends. Harry is skilled in flying and in charms. Snape refereed one game but there is no other mention of his broomstick ability. I believe that at one point, Snape denigrates charm work (I think -- I will need to look this up). Snape is skilled in potions, a subject in which Harry struggles. Harry stands firm in his beliefs. Snape is a once and possibly twice turned traitor. Certainly, there are times when Harry is angry, thoughtless, and unkind. But those aren't his personality traits, those are his weaknesses. We see him in those states and expect him to overcome them as part of his character development. Snape, on the other hand, is angry, thoughtless, and unkind *because* that's his personality. When (if) we see him in kinder states, we expect him to revert back to being mean because that's his character development. There are no frightening similarities between the two characters. Deirdre [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Oct 17 19:51:23 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:51:23 +0100 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) Message-ID: <496CC708-00DB-11D8-8DEB-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83056 Assailed on two fronts; no matter. Though the way be long and weary, onwards I toil, bearing a banner with a strange device. First Laura, with snipping: > We said several posts back that Snape *is* his anger. He has long ago chosen to make rage, contempt, cruelty and disregard his emotional vocabulary. Other people in the WW suffered exactly what you suggest he did, and yet they can continue to form relationships and take pleasure in the good things of this world. > Kneasy: Not sure what you mean by "...disregard his emotional vocabulary.." I think it speaks to him clearly - a bright core of tightly focussed anger. True, he does explode on occasion, though far less frequently than is generally supposed (when Harry taunts him about James saving his life, the Shrieking Shack, Harry and the Pensieve). Other times (in classes, Sirius at Grimmauld Place) I read as calculated scorn or contempt. This is a cold man. Group hugs would never appeal even if his life had been uneventful. I sympathise. Ersatz coercive bonhomie does not appeal to me either. (An email from sylviablundell opined that Snape has much in common with Cassius - a reasonable comparison in some ways.) Laura > Yes, I agree that Snape seeks catharsis. I wonder, though, what will change about him if and when he gets it. What I'm trying to get at is that I think Snape likes being angry. I'm not sure he perceives it as suffering at all, although we readers do. > Kneasy: He probably does nurture his anger, but to him it is a justifiable anger. So why let it go? Will we agree with him when the full story unfolds? I probably will, you probably won't. Laura: > I don't agree that he's repressing his anger-come on, when does he ever do that? Even if he doesn't verbalize it all, everyone in his vicinity knows when he's about to erupt. What he's suffering from isn't repression but delayed gratification-in other words, frustration. That's understandable. What isn't is his belief that it's appropriate to take it out on the entire world. > Kneasy: More crossed lines here, I think. My point was that some posters seem to want him to suppress it, work it out, come to terms with it. My reading of Snapes character is that this is foreign to his nature. He keeps it under wraps hidden from public view usually, but this is because it is private, not because it is repressed. Laura: > I don't think we've scratched the surface when it comes to understanding where Snape's anger comes from. Here's what we do know: he arrives at school already well versed in the dark arts and quickly proceeds to demonstrate his poor social skills by impressing a number of students with his general unpleasantness. And he's sorted into Slytherin, never a good sign. > Kneasy: Well versed? One comment from Sirius about Snape knowing more Dark Magic when he joined the school than half the seventh year. This from a scion of the evil Black family and who probably knew just as much if not more of Dark Magic at the age of eleven (he didn't 'reform' until after he joined Hogwarts). Is Sirius an unbiased observer? Since Dark Magic is not taught at Hogwarts anyway, this may mean little or much. I think the comment is of a class with Hagrid's 'nobody went bad except they was in Slytherin' - a commonplace exaggeration to make a point. Laura: >Now we come to the night of the prank. Snape, who is already crossing privacy boundaries, decides to follow the advice of the last person in the world to whom he should have given any credence. Snape isn't stupid. He deliberately decides to follow Sirius's suggestion. He leaves the dormitory after hours and follows Remus and a staff member clearly engaged in private activity. And when he gets caught and has to be ignominiously rescued, he decides that *he's* the victim?! If he'd minded his own business in the first place and used a millimeter of common sense he wouldn't have found himself in that tunnel. Who did something against school rules? Remus? No, of course not. James? No, of course not. Sirius? No- he did something unkind but what school rules did he break? It was Severus and only Severus who was out of line that night. He was lucky DD didn't punish *him*. > Kneasy: Unsurprisingly, I don't agree with your interpretation of the 'prank'. Firstly, canon for 'after hours' please. It states 'evening'. Secondly, any teenager who goads, taunts, or 'jokes' another into extreme danger is not blameless. School Rules? Who could envision similar circumstances? What would cover the situation? "Rule 17: Attempted manslaughter is not allowed." Sirius should have been punished. He knowingly put Snape in danger. Remus, no. James, probably not, (but I'd love to hear Snape's version of the episode; so far only Remus has told the tale and what he knows is hearsay. He only knows what Sirius and James have told him). DD? probably culpable. A werewolf in a school? Not ensuring that Remus was secure? Not checking? The foursome cavorting around the countryside every full moon? Where's his much vaunted omniscience of activities in and around Hogwarts? Then instituting a cover-up and *continuing* the arrangement. No wonder Snape was pissed. Laura: > Snape is so angry and insecure that he takes everything as an insult except craven obedience-his reaction to Lily in Pensieve 2 is an example. If every interaction you try is met with hostility, the attempts will soon cease-as witness Lily. Yet no one did anything to Snape that he wasn't willing and able to do to them first. > Kneasy: Wow! Where did you get this one from? Insecure? Just like Ghengis Khan. Expecting craven obedience from Lily? He just wanted her out of the way - she was just making things worse. James and Sirius gang up on Snape; jump him without warning (such brave boys). He's disarmed before he knows what's happening. Both jinx him when he has no wand (just who the Slytherin and who the Gryffindor here?), then Lily jumps in. Any connoisseur of male scuffles will tell you this is the worst thing she could have done. If she hadn't interfered, it would soon have ended; Snape was defenceless and James would soon have stopped (unless he was truly nasty). But once Lily is in, James has a point to prove to Lily and then another to his friends when Lily has gone. (What do I care what she thinks?) They really were a nasty bunch of thugs. Proof please that Snape did anything to WMPP that was not provoked. Laura: > When Sirius talks about Snape, his tone always sounds dismissive to me, so I imagine that Sirius wouldn't have bothered about Snape if James hadn't been in the picture. That's my take on it anyhow. > Kneasy: I doubt Sirius would relish facing Snape without back-up. I doubt a fair fight would appeal to him. We all know characters like Sirius; happy to instigate mischief but missing when the blame gets apportioned. Snape seemed quite happy to take him on in Grimmauld Place. Sirius? Wind and bombast and not much else IMO. The Ministry? No option without being accused of cowardice. Nora, now: > I can't find my cynicism post in the archives at present; if you like, I'll email/repost/whatever. The gist of it is that a true cynic (and by the way, Ambrose Bierce isn't a real cynic, even) is so convinced of the widespread venality/etc. that they view everything with an equally jaundiced eye; then why bother, when everything is worthless? Cynicism erodes distinctions. I used Brunnhilde from the Ring, when she says "Loyalty and treachery, meaningless words!" That's a cynic. > Kneasy: I'd agree about Ambrose Bierce - he was just sour. Personally, I'd highlight H.L.Mencken; a cynic to savour. Cynics do recognise that honest men exist, they have to, otherwise there is no yardstick. It's just that they get corrupted so easily. Wagner; not a favourite of mine and opera is not a form that lends itself to verbal subtleties, especially at the volume level he preferred. The Brunnhilde quote I would read as disillusionment or despair, but I'm not about to be dogmatic about it. I've only seen T&I once and I have no intention of repeating the experience. Nora: > I did read the post; my apologies, but I don't buy it. It's too hypothetical for me, and I'm not willing to argue off of something that speculative. However, should circumstances change, I will happily bow and accomodate. I agree that Snape isn't as overtly odious as Umbridge, but he's not exactly a model of good behavior, either. I think it's pretty obvious that he's cruel, and I am emphatically not a supporter of "Good but not Nice", for a number of reasons. I also think DD's comments about Snape not being able to put aside his feelings about Harry's father point against the part playing, but I will wait for some more confirmation before taking a solid stand. > Kneasy: It's OK. Agreement isn't compulsory. You'll be pleased to hear that you're part of a large majority, but us compulsive theorisers are incorrigible. The consensus is there to be challenged. "Good but not nice." He is not good, I've never argued so; neither is he nice. But he is co-operating with the goodies - why? What reason can be surmised for this change of stance? It must be a very compelling one; no-one else has come up with a motive of sufficient strength to convince me of its validity. (I too take notice of facts and suppositions; I'm a scientist.) Yes, DD points out that Snape hates James. So what? He's intelligent enough not to mindlessly transfer his hatred to Harry. He doesn't like Harry, but to hate him would require actions by Harry, not James. Nora: > Well, some things like, you know, national legal systems and most moral systems argue agains the recipient being the sole arbiter of injury. Let me incorporate here a response to a note recently posted, arguing for the psychological understanding of Snape's abusive actions. That's an explanation, but it's not an excuse. > Kneasy: Psychological understanding leaves me cold. I worked for three years in a mental subnormality hospital (on the genetics side) and was involved in enough case conferences to appreciate just how uncertain experienced psychologists and psychiatrists are when considering root causes. It's always "it may be a factor" or "could have an effect" or "possibly indicative". Lawyers are the only ones to express certainty. Of course legal and moral systems argue thus. It's the only way to prevent an outbreak of blood-feud. They look to the welfare of society, not the individual. Usually it's positive for the general good but may leave the injured party feeling short-changed. A bunch of professional windbags in a legislature deciding on the level of hurt felt by a person they've never seen? Huh. Most of the population accept it - until they're the injured party. Nora: > I understand that the side-effects of abuse can't be tossed over or worked through solely by a heroic act of will, but it is in part a personal decision to be controlled by what has been done to you, or to try to work through it. And if you're ruled by it enough to take it out on the son over a decade later, frankly, that's just sad. > Kneasy: Abuse. What a misused word. What boys do to each other in their teenage years is horrific in retrospect, quite common and usually acceptably ritualised at the time. Usually. Mostly it's part of the the establishment of a dominance system. (However much it is decried it *will* happen one way or another - it's in-built.) What Sirius did to Snape falls outside the accepted parameters. That was more than enough to engender a lifetime grudge. Abuse by adults is something else. (This time I refer to the memory flash; it's not clear which episode you are referring to.) But is abuse actually occurring? The man is shouting at the woman not the child. Why is the child crying? No evidence. It may be that the child is upset at a parental explosion that the child is not part of. Even in the best regulated of families rows can occur in front of the children. Can this be considered abuse? If so, 90% of parents are abusers. Ridiculous. But I suppose the tribes of specialists and lawyers have to earn a living somehow. And so even the commonplace becomes actionable. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 20:11:26 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Mausita) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tonks - The Death Eater (reprise) Message-ID: <20031017201126.55834.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83057 "Inge" wrote: > I posted a theory on Tonks a short while back but had no respons at > all. I wonder why. Maybe the idea has already been discussed and I > didn't notice - and in that case, Im sorry for reposting. If that is > the case please point me in the direction where to find it. > > Here goes again, and I do hope for some sort of reply this time :) > > > In OotP we are introduced to Tonks, the Metamorphmagus. It seemed > wrong that she didn't become known later in the books as someone who > actually *used* her skills as a Metamorphmagus. > So this idea came to me. What if indeed she does use her skills and > changes into someone else on a regular basis. Into someone we already > know but who is no longer of any real importance in the books - at > least not to us, the readers. > What if Snape is not the spy after all - it would be a bit too > obvious if he were, wouldn't it? So - who else would be able to take > the position of Dumbledore's spy and be able to get very close to > Voldemort without him even suspecting there's a spy in his midst? > Tonks might be the one. > But for her to do so she would need to take the place of someone who > is no longer around - someone *Voldemort* THINKS is still around - > but isn't. > > Whatever happened to Barty Ferm Jr after he had his soul sucked out? > Do we know? > Does Voldemort have any way of knowing what really happened to Barty > Ferm Jr at the end of GOF? Who could have told him? > > What if Barty Ferm Jr still exists - on special occassions. What if > Tonks could Metamorph into Ferm Jr and take his place at the DE > meetings and get information directly from Voldemort to pass on to > the Order. > Now - how would Tonks know when the DE's are summoned by Voldemort? > Snape would tell her - because he would know! > > I love the idea that Tonks Metamorphmagus'es herself into Barty Ferm > Jr and attends the DE meetings. > > I can't think of anyone - but one - who could have told Voldemort > that his loyal supporter Ferm Jr was sucked dry at the end of GOF - > and that would be Lucius. But would Fudge really have any reason to > have told Lucius about that incident? > > What do you think? > > Inge ********* Since you sooooooo want a reply, I figured I would give you one. Not a bad idea. However, it's not said that Tonks can morph into other/certain people but change her appearance. Plus, she would have to know Barty quite well to pull it off, and he was under an invisibility cloak for 12-13 years. Crouch was able to do Moody because Moody's demeanor and behavior are so well known. I would assume that what holds true for animagi holds for metamorphmagi; that sex cannot be changed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tonks always appear as women? Her height did not vary either, right? Plus, Harry/Ron = Crabbe/Goyle when using Polyjuice Potion. Hermione was supposed to be Milicent. Same sex, different morphs. Marci (who typed this up and it did not post, had to retype; added some stuff, hope the same message came across. lol) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Oct 17 20:19:26 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:19:26 -0000 Subject: Harry/Snape similarities (was Angry people) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Woodward, Deirdre" wrote: > Are you kidding me? The idea of Harry and Snape being similar in any but coincidental ways is so outrageous that I can only think you are being deliberately provocative. June: Well that makes two of us. I believe they are both a study in contrasts and similarities at the same time. > > The two characters are hero and foil, and, as such, are a study in contrasts. > > Harry is an orphan raised by relatives who, while they dislike him, dote on their son. Harry feels in his own heart that his parents loved him dearly. Snape was raised by parents whose fighting and parental techniques left him permanently scarred. June: We are unable to tell at this stage whether Harry's upbringing will leave any permanent scars. Certainly, IMHO, JKR is making it very clear that this is a possibility, given Harry's very real anger at a number of issues. Here's the first area of similarity - both Snape and Harry carry considerable anger baggage (can you carry anger baggage? Well, now you can!). Harry's anger is because he is forced to live in a family where he is despised and because he has very little knowledge of his own background and heritage and it turns out that much of this has been kept from him. For what it is worth, I believe that JKR will work towards a happy conclusion for Harry and that he will not have lasting damage because of his upbringing. I also feel no such happy outcome is being scheduled for Snape. He is largely what Harry COULD become if things go badly wrong. Sure, his background is more like a mirror image that we realise - it is to some extent Harry's life turned upside down. He knows his identity and background, but the similarities are there in the common experiences of bullying and humiliation. > > Harry didn't know he was a wizard until he was 11. Snape, we can presume by his position as head of Slytherin, is wizard-born. June: We can assume he is wizard born - but please remember it is no more than an assumption. Weight is added by his Slytherin background and also his use of the Mudblood racial slur. Not proof however. > > Harry arrived at school knowing no one and in 60 days makes close and lasting friendships. Snape is described as a loner, and to this day has no friends mentioned in the books. He alienates almost everyone he comes into contact with. June: Well actually - no. He was part of a gang at school of Slytherins (who may well have all turned out to be Death Eaters - but they were still friends) so he did have friends. In addition, whatever you think of Snape, he seems to get on well with his colleagues. They may well feel exasperated by him, but both Dumbledore and McGonagall seem to regard him with affection - very considerable affection in the case of DD and Snape seems to have a rather warm if friendly rivalry with Minerva too. There is the kind of almost friendly competition they have as heads of rival houses which I believe is fairly explicit in canon. So he doesn't alienate mature adults. In addition to this, he is seen in the opening parts of OOP as being almost eagerly awaited by the rest of the order for his report. In one scene he is surrounded by the other members - this does not speak of alienating others to me. Rather the opposite. I see a character who can often be infuriating but who you might like - from an adult perception because they are waspish and sarcastic but very droll and amusing too. And clever. That would be important to me. > In COS, Harry is disliked by fellow classmates because they fear his powers. Harry responds by feeling bad for himself but focuses on his homework, stays out of people's way, and eventually shows his schoolmates -- through an unselfish act of heroism -- that their distrust of him was unfounded. Snape is disliked by his classmates and his fellow employees, and his response is to study the dark arts, belittle people, and thoroughly earn his reputation as a mean, angry person. When given a chance, Snape attempts to rig outcomes to his advantage (Quidditch match in SS/PS, awarding and taking away house points without real reason). June: No. He was not trying to rig the outcome of the Quidditch match - though most Gryffindors were ready to believe that. He was in fact trying to save Harry's life. > > Harry is kind to his fellow classmates, although at times he certainly attempts to circumvent the attentions of the Creevys. Snape is mean to most people, except fellow Slytherins. June: Or Gryffindors whose life he is trying to save... He may well have a sharp tongue and appear intolerant. For my part, I'd be inclined to overlook a few sharp words if someone tried to save my life. > > Harry likes working in groups and has a network of friends who care deeply about him. In the development of those friendships, Harry encounters conflict and is willing to resolve that conflict so the friendship continues. Snape works in a group of people but doesn't appear to have any friends. Snape is a proven traitor to his friends. June: Hello? What evidence is there of this? Which friends did he betray? Do you mean Rosier and Wilkes? FYI I believe it WAS Snape who betrayed Rosier and Wilkes. I also believe they must have been very nasty DE's indeed - judging the the fight Rosier put up when cornered (accounting for a large part of Moody's nose). If they were so very nasty - should we really be criticising Snape for fitting them up - rather we should be sending petitions to the Prophet for his being awarded the Order of Merlin. I do not personally regard ratting on a bunch of murderers as betrayal - nor do I consider loyalty to an evil cause praiseworthy. > > Harry is skilled in flying and in charms. Snape refereed one game but there is no other mention of his broomstick ability. I believe that at one point, Snape denigrates charm work (I think -- I will need to look this up). Snape is skilled in potions, a subject in which Harry struggles. June: I think we can take it as a given that if he is up to refereering a Quidditch game then he can fly competently at the very least. What he says about charms (though it's not specifically about charms) is his famous entry speech about wand waving. > > Harry stands firm in his beliefs. Snape is a once and possibly twice turned traitor. June: "I trust Severus Snape" thus says Dumbledore. There has been considerable debate on this board about whether Dumbledore is right to trust Snape. I'll tell you why I believe Dumbledore. Because he is so very bald in his defence. No justifications, no long complicated explanations - just that simple statement. Take it or leave it. Dumbledore speaks with such plain confidence because he KNOWS it is true and for reasons which we do not - yet. > > Certainly, there are times when Harry is angry, thoughtless, and unkind. But those aren't his personality traits, those are his weaknesses. We see him in those states and expect him to overcome them as part of his character development. > > Snape, on the other hand, is angry, thoughtless, and unkind *because* that's his personality. When (if) we see him in kinder states, we expect him to revert back to being mean because that's his character development. June: Weaknesses ARE personality traits. If a characteristic is a fault in one person, it cannot be a virtue in another. If it's a bad thing to lose your temper - then it's bad. End of story - the fact that one person does it doesn't make it right. I personally believe that the temper in both characters is explicable and probably forgivable. To dismiss Snape as just a meanie is to kind of ignore a genuinely GREAT character. He may not make that many friends but boy, he sure does influence people. He's complex. He's difficult. What is going on in his mind? That's what I'm hanging on to find out. > > There are no frightening similarities between the two characters. The similarities don't frighten me at all. A number of adult characters are in the books for us to look at - I feel there are a number of possible options being set up for Harry to become. Snape is a bitter person who probably has a deeply tragic backstory - which is being slowly (too slowly!!) revealed by JKR. I believe a good deal of this backstory may prove to be pivotal to the future plot development of the books. However - there are similarities and while I do not believe JKR is even setting us up to see Harry as becoming a future Snape, she has cleverly (in OOP) begun to unveil the enigma that is Snape. A real plot twister is to set up a character who the hero hates, and then reveal him to be very similar in a number of ways. They are not the same, but I believe they DO share a great deal of common ground. June "DENNIS: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds disributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." Monty Python and the Holy Grail. From sydenmill at msn.com Fri Oct 17 20:55:00 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:55:00 -0000 Subject: Who Will Return As Ghosts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83060 Okay, recently we've been speculating on who is likely to die before the end of the series. . . Taking each character you think will bite the big one, do you think he/she would stay around as a ghost? According to Sir Nicholas, Sirius would never choose to be a ghost. At first I disagreed, but then figured that Sirius would probably be so happy to be reunited with James, he would stay "behind the veil." So. My thoughts: For some reason, I think Ron would/will return as a ghost. The creepy part of that is, I have stronger feelings about him as a ghost than I do about him dying. . . with Harry as the only one who can see him. A strange thought, I know. (Do I sound like Trelawney or what?) The second person I see dying and returning as a ghost is Snape. Wouldn't he be quite an addition to the group of resident ghosts at Hogwarts? Where else could he go, though, alive or dead, than Hogwarts? What do you think? Who would stay as a ghost-- and why. Happy speculating! Bohcoo From koukla_es at yahoo.es Fri Oct 17 09:14:02 2003 From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (neith_seshat) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:14:02 -0000 Subject: "Severus" trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > I larned in class the other day that there was a Roman governor of > Britain by the name of Julius Severus who was in office around the > year 135 CE, when he was sent to Judea by the emperor Hadrian to > help put down the bar Kochba revolt. Just a bit of trivia...I have > no idea if (1) this has been covered before or (2) JKR ever heard of > this guy. But I have no doubt he had greasy hair and favored > black... AFAIK, it has not been covered. However, it has been discussed that there was a Roman Emperor, called Septimius Severus (Third Century AD), from whom Snape's first name could have been taken. If I'm not mistaken, he had even a strongest link with Britain, as he died at Evoracum (nowadays, York). He came into power by fighting and winning the other two contendants, Albus and Niger (white and black, by the way...) I hope you find it useful, Neith From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 17 21:49:48 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:49:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding numbers References: <1066300893.10974.64334.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002101c394f8$96742460$16e66151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 83062 Robert wrote: >Note also, you can't assume that the wizard population is in >steady state, especially given their long lives. Someone (Catlady I think) will debate that one with you, because there is a theory that the WW population is now in steady state - if the number of wizard borns declines, the number of muggle borns rises to compensate. My own position would be that the ratio of wizards to muggles is probably constant but possibly rises slightly, because of wizards' slight physical advantage in terms of resilience. >A century ago the proportion of muggle-borns may have been >only 5% (because Hogwarts used to be more selective, or it may >have been 50% (because magic genes are being culled out of the >muggle population.) A century is a pretty short time for the WW because of the longer life span. If you accept a double span, then a WW "generation" is 60 rather than 30 years. That in turn means that the WW has been formally separated from the muggle world for 5 generations. However, think about the fact that since the end of the 17th century (and quite possibly earlier in some cases), every muggle born wizard has been whipped into the WW for safe keeping roughly from puberty. Because of the lack of overlap between the two worlds, it's probably quite difficult for someone from the WW to meet and form a relationship with a muggle, even if they're not convinced by WW ideas of purity of blood. So I would say that the proportion of muggle borns has actually declined steadily as wizardry has become more secret. >Nor is wizarding lifespan likely to be constant. Figures for lifespan tend to depend on life_style_. We don't really have a lot of canon to say whether or not wizards lived in healthier circumstances than muggles in the past. It's interesting to theorise that possibly they did (and still do) for several reasons. Firstly, magical healing techniques seem to be far more radical and effective than muggle ones, even compared to our own world. Secondly, because the application of magic to techniques of industrial production would imply that it's far healthier to be a producer in the WW than in the muggle world (and certainly far more so at the time of the Industrial Revolution). Thirdly, because there don't seem to be the same extremes of wealth and poverty in the WW. So maybe muggle lifespans have "caught up". Maybe wizard lifespans _are_ quite constant. >With their magic wizards may be able to sustain complex >institutions with a much smaller population than muggles need. The only proviso seems to be that magic can't create something (permanent) out of nothing, so that things that need physical existence (like food, clothes, and the like) do need to have a basis in physical reality and can't just be magicked up Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 17 22:20:39 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:20:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizarding numbers References: <1066360998.4756.42478.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004f01c394fc$e8bd5ee0$16e66151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 83063 Mikael wrote: >Fair enough. Personally, I can't see the attendance being lower than 50 % >without making it extremely odd that Hogwarts is the only mentioned school >(in the British isles, that is) in the books. Given what you say about the >infrastructure in your post, i see a risk of circular reasoning here. >Tailoring the calculations to snugly fit the notion of a population larger >than a first-glance analysis of the number of students would warrant (such >as having a low Hogwarts attendance) is risky. If we design the explanans >to fit the explanandum we implicitly assume what we are trying to prove. >I'm not saying i don't suffer the same problem; just that it *is* a problem. Agreed on that. My answer to that would be that Hogwarts is the only mentioned school _of Witchcraft and Wizardry_ in the Isles. That allows for there being other WW children who for whatever reason (perhaps because they will go into the family business) don't need a qualification in wizardry, but instead might get a practical education from family or employer. Muggleborns, of course, would always need to be invited to Hogwarts. The WW has to be sure that they're properly acculturated otherwise they could end up coming to grief (and the secrecy of the WW could be compromised). Another explanation, which others have advanced, is that JKR's maths isn't the strongest point of the books, and that attempts to argue from it are always doomed to grief! >Do I make sense at all, or am I simply deluding myself? No, makes a great deal of sense! Also, of course, a lot of the context within which the plot of the books operates is shaded by your own mental picture of just how big the WW actually is. A possible example: Dumbledore says that he doesn't mind losing his various offices so long as they don't take his picture off the Chocolate Frogs. Now that might just be whimsy. But if you assume the "large" WW, then another implication might be that for most people, given that they _won't_ have been Hogwarts students, the Chocolate Frog cards are the _only place_ they'll have heard of Dumbledore... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 21:38:04 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:38:04 -0000 Subject: Who Will Return As Ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > What do you think? Who would stay as a ghost-- and why. > > Happy speculating! My best guess would be Neville Longbottom. As dedicated as he is to his mother and father, and as brave as he has been getting (both as witnessed in OotP) I can see him getting himself good and killed by the DE's and then refusing to 'cross over' so him mom and dad won't lose him. Whether or not they really have him right now is a debate for another place and time. My copy of OotP is out on loan, but the way I read the "Christmas on the Closed Ward" chapter was that Neville's gran paid very little attention to poor Alice and Frank, or at least a very different kind of attention than Neville gave them. I can't see Neville seemingly abandoning them them, leaving them with only Gran and Trevor and Great Uncle Algie for company. Also I can almost see Dumbledore pulling an Obi-Wan Kenobi and sacrificing himself to the cause, and then sticking around to help Harry with the fulfilment of the prophecy, as Harry and the rest of the WW would sorely be lacking in leadership with him gone (visions of an ultimate battle between LV and a ghostly Dumbledore just flashed before my eyes). But OTOH his insistence is SS that "to the well organized mind death is but the next great adventure" would seem to argue against that, so I suppose I'll stick with Neville. Meri (who will weep for Neville if he doesn't make it out alive) From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Fri Oct 17 22:38:30 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:38:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3878 In-Reply-To: <1066387200.5111.43008.m12@yahoogroups.com> References: <1066387200.5111.43008.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031017210334.02785d00@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83065 Robert Shaw wrote, in reply to me > > I have to disagree. Populations don't change overnight. The only > > population-affecting event in recent history that we know about > > is Voldemort's reign of terror. > >For these purposes, the 1890's are recent history. Yep. >The muggle population structure is still showing the effects of >WWII, fifty years later. > >Given their longer lifespans, the wizarding population will >be directly affected by events as far back as 1875-1900. While the population *structure* and age distribution still shows the effects of the cohort-affecting events of WWII, AFAIK the deaths of WWII and post-war baby-boom didn't affect the population trend, e.g. aggregate growth, in any significant way (I'll admit I'm a bit hazy on WWII's population effects in the British isles, so I'm prepared to be proven wrong; data from 1950 onwards shows only steady increase though). >Furthermore, since a significant proportion (currently about >25%) of wizards are muggle born, any change in muggle >demographics will have a knock-on effect on wizard >demographics. Changes in muggle numbers have to be *huge* to affect the number of muggle-born wizards. If we ignore post-OWL dropouts, then 36 muggle-borns enter Hogwarts per year (in present years), if 25 % of students are muggle-borns. That isn't a lot given a muggle population of 64 million in the British isles. That number should mean about 768 000 muggle births/year (if a year's births in proportion to total pop is comparable to Sweden's 0,012 for recent years), or one wizard-to-be child in 21 000 muggle births. Even if post-OWL dropouts are up to one third of 6th and 7th year students, it's still only one such child in 20 000 muggle births. Granted, the muggle population has grown a bit over a hundred years, so the generational proportions of muggle-borns should be lower in the older generations and higher in the younger generations. Even so, if 75 % of present Hogwarts students are muggle-borns, it only amounts to about 100 magical births to muggle parents per year. Anyway, it's reasonable that the vast majority of muggle-born wizards are still relatively young, and that muggle-borns will outnumber wizard-borns in the foreseeable future. Also, I see no reason at all to speculate about changes in the rate of births of wizards-to-be in the muggle population since there's absolutely no hint of it in canon. Having them be a constant fraction of muggle births seems instead a reasonable assumption. BTW, is there a reference for the 25 %? I haven't come across that very interesting figure. >The wizardly birth rate fall may be within wizardly living memory. >The muggle birth rate fall certainly is, which has consequences. It's highly unlikely the wizarding birth rates have fallen within living memory, unless mortality rates fell at roughly the same time. Seriously. Every year of low mortality and high fertility quickly adds up to enormous numbers. If the wizarding world enjoyed, say, 200 years of 5 % yearly growth (most industrializing countries had or have similar or higher growth rates while mortality rates were low fell until fertility fell) an initial wizarding pop of 1000 would be a horde of over *17 million* after 200 years. Rather, I'd say that the wizarding world has had low mortality and low fertility for ages, if not forever. I note that you snipped my proposal for why the WW has had such low rates. Oh well. It seems eminently reasonable that wizards have enjoyed lower mortality rates than muggles since the ancient past. Potions for various maladies and and protective spells go a long way to fend off accidental, natural deaths. With their magical power combined with house-elf or muggle labour, wizards shouldn't need to worry about famine or back-breaking drudgery in the fields, and thus few deaths to malnourishment, relative to the muggles. Given lower mortality rates than muggles, wizarding fertility rates *must* have been comparatively low as well, or wizards would quickly out-grow the muggles. If you don't accept a fairly stable wizarding population, you'll have to posit that they have had periods of low mortality and high fertility followed either by cataclysmic extermination events or equal periods of population decline. I think you'll have trouble finding causes for such changes. >Quite simply, deductions from the student population of Hogwarts >are only valid if nothing has changed for an entire wizardly >lifespan, but we know the muggle-born wizard population must >have changed significantly in just the last fifty years, a >comparatively short period. As a conclusion and summary to my points above, it's reasonable to assume a) that the wizard-born wizarding population have been stable for ages, and b) that the proportion of muggle-born has been increasing steadily as a function of the muggle population growth (only huge changes in muggle population can produce significant changes in the number of muggle-born wizards). Thus we should be quite able to deduce quite a lot from the number of students at Hogwarts. And, by the by, UK's population has increased by 20 percent during the last 50 years, which should correspond to an even greater increase in the number of muggle-born wizards since they are likely to live longer than muggles. I definitely agree that the muggle population explosion *is* a huge change, but it's effects haven't reached full strength yet, since muggle-borns are as of yet only 25 % percent of the total wizarding population. I don't have UK cohort data with which to calculate the likely age structure of muggle-borns and thus I can't calculate the likely proportion of muggle-born students at Hogwarts. / Mikael From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Oct 17 23:42:06 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:42:06 -0000 Subject: Who Will Return As Ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > What do you think? Who would stay as a ghost-- and why. > > > > Happy speculating! > > > My best guess would be Neville Longbottom. As dedicated as he is to > his mother and father, and as brave as he has been getting (both as > witnessed in OotP) I can see him getting himself good and killed by > the DE's and then refusing to 'cross over' so him mom and dad won't > lose him. As much as I hate to say it, I think it is possible. Poor Neville *sob* On the other hand, I still see him as future Hogwarts professor and I stick with this opinion, until it is proven otherwise. *g* Therefore he probably has to live. I mean, Binns is a professor, too, but he teaches the only subject, where you doesn't need a body. A ghost can't teach Herbology or DADA. I agree with you that Dumbledore will be ready for the next great adventure. He'll probably return as a portrait and will be able to give some advice, but I don't see him as the ghost type. What about Colin? I actually can see him as a ghost. He is exactly the type, who won't even shut up, when he is dead. Therefore this would fit. ;-) Besides, ghosts have also highly interesting Nicknames, and if he came back, it could finally be canon to call him "Crazy Colin" or even "Crazy Creevey". JKR has to do this, just for the alliterations. Hickengruendler From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Oct 17 23:22:21 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:22:21 -0000 Subject: Ponderables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83067 Deedee: > 2. If only the heir of Slytherin could open the chamber of secrets > how was Harry able to open the Chamber of Secrets??!? > Geoff: In COS, where Harry meets up with Tom Riddle in the Chamber, TR tells him that Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber...... > 3. Do you think Harry will ever get a good look at DD's scar. > (which, if I remember correctly is a map of the underground. I took > this to be a map of the tunnels etc. under Gringotts, Hogwarts etc.. > If DD had this map wouldn't he know where the Chamber of Secrets was? > (perhaps he knew where it was but not how to open it?) Is it only a > map of the "London Underground" (subway)? Geoff again: In the UK, reference to a map of the Underground would automatically make the reader think of the London Underground; these maps are almost iconic and nearly every road atlas or half-decent diary will have a copy. The only other Underground which might evoke a response would be the Glasgow Underground, but as any Glaswegian worth his/her salt would tell you, the line is a simple circle, so if Dumbledore had that map on his knee, he wouldn't be making so much fuss about it. From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sat Oct 18 00:11:42 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:11:42 +1300 Subject: Werewolf Cures and Clues Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031018125452.02560670@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83068 I don't have any companion books for HP, but was having a read of COS while having lunch. It was mentioned here that there were clues in this book. Lockhart, at one point in class keeps getting Harry to role play his award winning book sections. This one day he says how he beat this Werewolf, changing him back into a human and freeing the village, it was, as he said a very complicated Homorphus charm. I wonder if it was really as simple as that, just a charm, or was there more to it. Tanya From lziner at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 01:03:53 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:03:53 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Cures and Clues In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031018125452.02560670@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > I don't have any companion books for HP, but was having a read of COS > while having lunch. It was mentioned here that there were clues in this > book. Lockhart, at one point in class keeps getting Harry to role play his > award winning book sections. This one day he says how he beat this > Werewolf, changing him back into a human and freeing the village, it was, > as he said a very complicated Homorphus charm. I wonder if it was > really as simple as that, just a charm, or was there more to it. > > Tanya Foreshadowing for a later incident maybe? One where someone performs this on Lupin. Even it's complicated, we know Peter can be taught - animagus. So...this leads to the question - would Lupin have his wand while in werewolf form? OR would he transform and be helpless? Lziner - who will never believe in ESE Lupin - just don't kill him JK From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 06:42:45 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:42:45 -0000 Subject: Cats (was Re: COS clues) In-Reply-To: <000801c394d3$4cd4ca50$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83070 Granny wrote: > [Crookshanks] is described as bandy legged and ginger colored, and >Ron notes the strange shape of his face. In Book 4, there is a >similar description of Mundungus--bandy legged and having reddish >hair, and a description of his strange features. I (Laursaia) reply: Actually we meet Mundungus in Book 5 and there's a scene in Book 5 when both Dung and Crookshanks are in the same scene together. It's at the start when Harry arrives at Grimmauld Place in. (Unless Dung went back in Time just to appear in one scene with himself in cat form.) So, perhaps the similarity in their appearance is not to suggest that they are the same person. But, even if they're not the same person, they're still uncannily alike. Joj writes: > In COS we have Hermione turning into a cat. Why? There was no >need to do this and really didn't serve a purpose. Hermione could >have gone with the boys to see Draco, and nothing would have >changed, or she could have planned all along to just have the boys >go. I think this might be one of the important COS clues. Remember >Steven Kloves said in the COS DVD that he wanted to leave something >out and JKR said he had to leave it in. It certainly could have >been left out easilyand not changed a thing. I (Laurasia) reply: That's an intersting point! And, remember in OotP when Harry is taking the Occumency lessons and one of the visions he has is of Hermione covered in fur, when she was turned into a cat? I thought that was extremely bizzare- mostly because we never saw Harry have a vision of Hermione petrified. I would assume that Harry was much more distraught when Hermione nearly *died* rather than when the Polyjuice Potion backfired. So, why bring up the fact that Hermione turned into a cat in OotP? Unless it's significant... There's something weird going on with people and their cats for sure... Also- note the seemingly large amount of cats with names starting with 'Mr' or Mrs.' Mrs Norris, Mr Tibbles, Mr Prentice (Figg mentions him at the start of OotP, there's no actual proof he's a cat, but seeing as she doesn't mind him seeing Harry with his wand out, he couldn't be a Muggle- so I'm just assuming he's a cat). Are they really people who have been unrepairably tranfigured into cat form? Any ideas? ~<(Laurasia)>~ From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Oct 18 06:55:19 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:55:19 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Cures and Clues In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031018125452.02560670@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > I don't have any companion books for HP, but was having a read of COS > while having lunch. It was mentioned here that there were clues in this > book. Lockhart, at one point in class keeps getting Harry to role play his > award winning book sections. This one day he says how he beat this > Werewolf, changing him back into a human and freeing the village, it was, > as he said a very complicated Homorphus charm. I wonder if it was > really as simple as that, just a charm, or was there more to it. > This is all IMHO, of course, but I think the Homorphus charm is probably the same charm Sirius & Lupin did on Peter to force him back in human form. At a guess, it causes any transformed human to go back to their original form, but does nothing to prevent future transformations. Once the village *knew* who the werewolf was, they could then take steps against that person. OTOH, wouldn't it be interesting if Lupin was the Wagga-Wagga werewolf? The wizard who originally claimed to have defeated him(who's memory Lockhart erased) may have made up the charm as a cover story for having smuggled Lupin out of the village to safety... --Arcum From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 01:50:04 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:50:04 -0000 Subject: Who Will Return As Ghosts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > What about Colin?...if he came back, it could finally be canon to call > him "Crazy Colin" or even "Crazy Creevey". JKR has to do this, just > for the alliterations. > > Hickengruendler I don't know how the Creevey brothers fit into this yet. They seem there mostly for comic little asides (like, "Look at me Colin! I fell in the lake and was rescued by the giant squid! How cool!") so maybe there is a more important place for them, ie: as ghosts who can really explain to Harry about death. Plus "Crazy Colin" and "Deathly Denis" would be excellent additions to the ghost population at Hogwarts. Anyway, as to the theory of Neville being a teacher, unless JKR's last chapter is (as rumored to be) an epilogue of where everyone is post-Hogwarts, then I don't see how we'll ever know if Neville professes Herbology. Meri From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Oct 18 06:23:18 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:23:18 -0000 Subject: what kind of story is HP? (was:Re: Who will betray the order) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura: > > You raise an interesting question-are the HP books a personal saga > or an epic of a world in crisis? Can they be both? Given that JKR > has titled the books around her central character, I'd argue that > she sees them as being primarily about him. Since she places him in > a world of her own creation, we inevitably learn a lot about that > world and its situation, especially since Harry's personal > challenges are reflected in those confronting the larger WW. But > I'd contrast JKR's aims with those of, say, Tolkein, who wanted to > create a true epic and didn't focus on any one character in > particular. > > Of course, then the question arises, how should JKR proceed if the > books are a personal saga vs what she should do if they're an epic > about the WW? For one thing, I suppose if they were the latter, she > could kill off Harry...but I sure hope she doesn't. Geoff: I feel I must disagree with this view. Tolkien, in the Lord of the Rings, focusses on one character, Frodo, who has a burden placed on him to carry the ring. He has companions and friends - Sam, Merry, Pippin, Gimli, Aragorn, Legolas et al. They are around him, they support him, encourage him and help him. However, look at Elrond's words when they leave Rivendell: "The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest... On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy...... The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry or come back or turn aside.... no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will." Jo Rowling, in the Harry Potter books, focusses on one character, Harry, who has a charge placed on him by the prophecy (Which I tend to take at face value) to carry the ring. He has companions and friends - Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny, Luna, Dumbledore et al. They are around him, they support him, encourage him and help him. go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. They may tarry or come back or turn aside.... no oath or bond is laid on them to go further than they will.... I think there is a similarity here..... Geoff From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Oct 18 12:45:06 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:45:06 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83074 When I first started reading the HP books back in 1997, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I was instantly struck by a comparison with one of my (other) favourite books: The Earthsea Trilogy (now a tetralogy) by Ursula le Guin. Let me stress, I believe the comparison is slight, but there's a central tenet in the Earthsea stories that I personally feel is understated in the HP books and could possibly do with being touched on. Responsibility and magical power. Where precisely does the magic come from in the Potterverse? Yes we know that there are "wizarding families" who generally, though not always, produce wizarding children, and there are instances of a kind of genetic mutation (for want of a better word) where non- wizarding families (such as the Grangers) produce a magically talented child. But does magic per se have a source - a wellspring? Is it like "the force" in the movies that must not be named? Is it finite - both as a general force of nature and are there finite quantities of magical powers in the wizard? The basis of magic in Earthsea is the name of things. Everything has two names at least and in the case of humans - three. There is the name you are called by your mother until you come of age, your "true" name which is a secret you may wish to divulge to those VERY close to you, and your use name by which most people know you. Your true name actually defines you and if someone calls a wizard by their true name - the wizard may be incapable of any transformation. Knowing the real name of things is the cornerstone of magic. The other major point made in the Earthsea books is that magical power carries great responsibility - because when a magical spell is worked it can have unknown repercussions on the general balance of nature, thus: "A mage can control only what is near him, what he can name exactly and wholly. And this is well. If it were not so, the wickedness of the powerful or the folly of the wise would long ago have sought to change what cannot be changed, and Equilibrium would fail. The unbalanced sea would overwhelm the islands where we perilously dwell, and in the old silence all voices and names would be lost." Indeed, the wizard who trains the central character rarely works magic at all because although he is an undeniably powerful wizard, the central lesson is do not do anything magically unless it is necessary. Here he is: "When you know the fourfoil in all its seasons root and leaf and flower, by sight and scent and seed, then you may learn its true name, knowing its being: which is more than its use. What after all is the use of you? or of myself? Is Gont Mountain useful, or the Open Sea?...To hear, one must be silent." Now while enjoying these books (both sets) I am not for a moment advocating that JKR sits down and takes the line that ULG does. Plagiarism notwithstanding, I find some of the concepts that Earthsea puts across would be quite challenging for younger readers. However, there seems to be little taught to the budding wizards at Hogwarts the very central idea that with great power comes great reponsibility. Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? There seems to be the minimum of restraint on the entire wizarding population - right, every underage wizard risks serious educational penalties if they break the underage rules, but where does that leave the adult wizard? Pretty much in the middle of a free for all. Now there may well be considerable rules that are in place and that we are just not aware of - and that's quite possible because there's an awful lot of information that we don't have about the WW yet, and that would hold up the story unbearably if JKR were to constantly go on a major narrative digression to sort this out for us. All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the Hogwarts curriculum. When it isn't appropriate to use spells, when it is. Is there any other effect of spells apart from the obvious. For instance, if you used magic to push some clouds away because they were raining on you, what is the effect of those clouds raining somewhere else and is it a good effect? It might be argued that the existence of such psychos as Voldemort is enough of an example for budding wizards to see that there are and have to be limitations to magic practice. However - it's only certain wizards who really get to see this, like Harry, Ron and Hermione because of their adventures. Other Hogwarts children may well be able to draw certain conclusions from what their parents have told them about the last Wizarding War, but it's by no means certain. And in any case, surely this is not going to be the case in families such as Malfoy's where we can probably be certain that regular parental chats about the ethical use of magic are NOT part of the vacational agenda. So what does anyone think? Am I just a stuffy spoilsport moralist, have I missed entirely on some fairly explicit treatment of responsibility by JKR, or does anyone agree that there should be ethics classes? June From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Oct 18 14:04:27 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:04:27 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > However, there seems to be little taught to the budding wizards at > Hogwarts the very central idea that with great power comes great > reponsibility. > > Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? There seems to be the > minimum of restraint on the entire wizarding population - right, > every underage wizard risks serious educational penalties if they > break the underage rules, but where does that leave the adult > wizard? Pretty much in the middle of a free for all. Now there may > well be considerable rules that are in place and that we are just > not aware of - and that's quite possible because there's an awful > lot of information that we don't have about the WW yet, and that > would hold up the story unbearably if JKR were to constantly go on a > major narrative digression to sort this out for us. > > All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the > Hogwarts curriculum. When it isn't appropriate to use spells, when > it is. Is there any other effect of spells apart from the obvious. > For instance, if you used magic to push some clouds away because > they were raining on you, what is the effect of those clouds raining > somewhere else and is it a good effect? > > It might be argued that the existence of such psychos as Voldemort > is enough of an example for budding wizards to see that there are > and have to be limitations to magic practice. However - it's only > certain wizards who really get to see this, like Harry, Ron and > Hermione because of their adventures. Other Hogwarts children may > well be able to draw certain conclusions from what their parents > have told them about the last Wizarding War, but it's by no means > certain. And in any case, surely this is not going to be the case > in families such as Malfoy's where we can probably be certain that > regular parental chats about the ethical use of magic are NOT part > of the vacational agenda. > > So what does anyone think? Am I just a stuffy spoilsport moralist, > have I missed entirely on some fairly explicit treatment of > responsibility by JKR, or does anyone agree that there should be > ethics classes? > > June Sue B: What a fascinating post! No, you're not a stuffy spoilsport moralist. Everyone *does* seem to be wand-happy in the WW. There seem to be *some* restrictions, though, hence the shops like the one in Knockturn Alley, where Harry overhears Lucius in CoS, and the slightly illegal feel of the entire place. And, of course, there are the Unforgivables, and there are rules about not picking on Muggles, though that is partly, at least, to keep the WW safe and secret. The problem is, magic in the WW takes the place of technology. It's used for everything from cookery to medicine. If you don't use electricity and there's another way, you use it. Perhaps each subject at Hogwarts has an ethics component - I can certainly see Professor McGonagall, for one, explaining that you only transfigure when you need to (though I' ve never been comfortable with the scenes where animals are turned into inanimate objects). Whether or not the students like Snape, he'd certainly have to explain, at some stage, that potions can be dangerous and are not, repeat, not for playing silly games with, thank you very much! From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 14:24:34 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:24:34 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? There seems to be the > minimum of restraint on the entire wizarding population . Now there may well be considerable rules that are in place and that we are just not aware of - and that's quite possible because there's an awful lot of information that we don't have about the WW yet, and that would hold up the story unbearably if JKR were to constantly go on a major narrative digression to sort this out for us. > All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the Hogwarts curriculum. Laura: This bears on the discussion a little while ago about the ethics of legilimency. The absence of any reference to a code of behavior, be it moral/ethical or legal, is conspicuous. Laws seem to spring up in the WW sort of arbitrarily. There are 3 curses that are Unforgivable, but aren't there lots of ways to inflict damage on people (and property, come to that) that should be illegal too, if not Unforgivable? And what about magic that doesn't necessarily harm people but interferes with their free will? We had a long discussion about erasing people's memories, for instance. And I seem to recall a reference to love potions being illegal-maybe in GoF. But there doesn't seem to be any comprehensive list of rules and regs to which the WW can refer, nor does there seem to be any person or persons who are ethical experts for the WW. I would guess that it's a combination of wanting to avoid religious controversy and not wanting to slow down the telling of the stories that has made JKR stay away from the idea of moral training. But I would love to see her ideas about it in some context. Yet another textbook for JKR to write, perhaps...along with Snape's bio, a history of the Marauders, a detailed description of the dark arts and the differences between curses, hexes and jinxes, etc etc. From yswahl at stis.net Sat Oct 18 15:29:00 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:29:00 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books (hem hem) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83077 junediamanti Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? There seems to be the minimum of restraint on the entire wizarding population . Now there may well be considerable rules that are in place and that we are just not aware of - and that's quite possible because there's an awful lot of information that we don't have about the WW yet, and that would hold up the story unbearably if JKR were to constantly go on a major narrative digression to sort this out for us. All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the Hogwarts curriculum. and the differences between curses, hexes and jinxes, etc etc. samnanya =============== Hem hem! Hem hem! I mean {snicker} Hear hear! Hear hear! What a GREAT read the HP series would be if she did that! I can't think of a single child that wouldn't relish the opportunity to learn all about wizard rules and regulations at great length and full formality. Damn .... JKR should make sure that Harry is put on Ritalin and take a course on anger management for his own good! Have JKR toss in a rule book for wand spells and the ethics of using them! Turn HP into Moby Dick with a 150 description of the whales and whaling and put everyone under the age of 12 into a total coma (but dont use an improperly applied or unapproved stunning spell). Have those in power plaster the walls with idiotic self serving but politically correct pronouncements! (Oops, Umbridge has already done that.) Wand happy? Just reread the chapter on Umbridge's first DADA class to see what that would turn into.... and with Harry on Ritalin, few would dare to fight back. Read Hermione's righteous blibbering about the mistreatment of elves (wonder what she will say when Kreacher is stuffed and mounted on the wall at 12 Grimmaud Place after Harry toasts the little sucker for betraying Sirius) if you want to feel righteous indignation. Of course the elves ignore her. The ethical training in the books is carefully woven into the story, warts and all...... Let JKR continue to do the job that she has done so well so far, keeping us awake and entertained while doing so. Samnanya Who is going out and scribbling graffiti on politically correct posters (both paper and people) ..... And, for the record, is still pissed that his daughter must use a useless and dysfunctionally blunt compass to draw curves in her Geometry class because some troglodyte teacher at her school is afraid that someone might get their eye put out if God {oops, cant mention her} forbid students are taught to use a compass that actually works. Hem hem! Hem hem! From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Oct 18 18:31:09 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:31:09 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books (hem hem) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > > samnanya > =============== > Hem hem! Hem hem! > I mean {snicker} Hear hear! Hear hear! > What a GREAT read the HP series would be if she did that! > I can't think of a single child that wouldn't relish the > opportunity to learn all about wizard rules and regulations > at great length and full formality. Damn .... JKR should > make sure that Harry is put on Ritalin and take a course > on anger management for his own good! > > Have JKR toss in a rule book for wand spells and the ethics > of using them! Turn HP into Moby Dick with a 150 description > of the whales and whaling and put everyone under the age of > 12 into a total coma (but dont use an improperly applied or > unapproved stunning spell). Actually, I don't believe literature has to be easy for me to read it. I like the HP books but do not believe they are the last word in literature. Have those in power plaster > the walls with idiotic self serving but politically correct > pronouncements! (Oops, Umbridge has already done that.) And that was not what I was saying either. > > Wand happy? Just reread the chapter on Umbridge's first > DADA class to see what that would turn into.... and with > Harry on Ritalin, few would dare to fight back. Read > Hermione's righteous blibbering about the mistreatment > of elves (wonder what she will say when Kreacher is stuffed > and mounted on the wall at 12 Grimmaud Place after Harry > toasts the little sucker for betraying Sirius) if you want > to feel righteous indignation. Of course the elves > ignore her. Actually, I feel Hermione is still right to take issue at the treatment of house elves. Dumbledore agreed with me! Just what is your problem with someone having a social conscience anyway? Not everyone buys into political laisser faire... > > The ethical training in the books is carefully woven into > the story, warts and all...... No - it isn't. Let JKR continue to do the > job that she has done so well so far, keeping us awake and > entertained while doing so. Fine by me - I've never indicated otherwise. None of that precludes some of us thinking about the possibilities posed by these books. That's why we're here. > > Samnanya > Who is going out and scribbling graffiti on politically > correct posters (both paper and people) ..... Thanks - that's a nice attitude. I wasn't being politically correct and never have been. I pointed out what I consider to be an interesting ethical point - you don't have to agree but I find the remark you make above about graffiti-ing rather annoying and combative. > > And, for the record, is still pissed that his daughter must > use a useless and dysfunctionally blunt compass to draw > curves in her Geometry class because some troglodyte > teacher at her school is afraid that someone might get > their eye put out if God {oops, cant mention her} forbid > students are taught to use a compass that actually works. > > Hem hem! Hem hem! Well - do you expect me to care? After all, you've already debunked the concept of caring about others. Perhaps they have to do this because many parents these days tend towards litigation if their little darlings get hurt in anyway while in school. Are you prepared to sign a waiver to that effect? I wasn't attempting political correctness and I'm sorry you see it that way. I also stated clearly in my post that I did NOT want to see a major digression in any book while the author set some moral agenda. I don't even feel it needs to be done, but I would be interested to see the subject covered "en passant". However, I feel it is a valid point to post what I feel is a gap in the books. Probably other members of this group have other feelings about things they think could be mentioned and while I might not always agree with them I am certainly not going to start making loaded accusations of PC at them. I think there is a considerable difference between the Umbridge attitude and a very real concern that people in the wizarding world DO have considerable power - which can be used for the general bad, or good. More particularly, I questioned a more subtle issue of cause and effect - namely - did anyone in the WW consider the effect of spells, was it taught and if so how? Questions which are not deserving of such derision. June From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 19:10:09 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:10:09 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: SNIP > Responsibility and magical power. > > Where precisely does the magic come from in the Potterverse? Yes we > know that there are "wizarding families" who generally, though not > always, produce wizarding children, and there are instances of a > kind of genetic mutation (for want of a better word) where non- > wizarding families (such as the Grangers) produce a magically > talented child. But does magic per se have a source - a wellspring? > Is it like "the force" in the movies that must not be named? Is it > finite - both as a general force of nature and are there finite > quantities of magical powers in the wizard? > SNIP > > Now while enjoying these books (both sets) I am not for a moment > advocating that JKR sits down and takes the line that ULG does. > Plagiarism notwithstanding, I find some of the concepts that > Earthsea puts across would be quite challenging for younger readers. > However, there seems to be little taught to the budding wizards at > Hogwarts the very central idea that with great power comes great > reponsibility. > > Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? There seems to be the > minimum of restraint on the entire wizarding population - right, > every underage wizard risks serious educational penalties if they > break the underage rules, but where does that leave the adult > wizard? Pretty much in the middle of a free for all. Now there may > well be considerable rules that are in place and that we are just > not aware of - and that's quite possible because there's an awful > lot of information that we don't have about the WW yet, and that > would hold up the story unbearably if JKR were to constantly go on a > major narrative digression to sort this out for us. > SNIP > > All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the > Hogwarts curriculum. When it isn't appropriate to use spells, when > it is. Is there any other effect of spells apart from the obvious. > For instance, if you used magic to push some clouds away because > they were raining on you, what is the effect of those clouds raining > somewhere else and is it a good effect? > > So what does anyone think? Am I just a stuffy spoilsport moralist, > have I missed entirely on some fairly explicit treatment of > responsibility by JKR, or does anyone agree that there should be > ethics classes? > > June I thought that was what the MoM was for. All those departments, like the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Department, etc. I always thought that the basics of Brittish law applied to the WW as well. I thought the government was aware that there was a WW. Fudge did inform the Prime Minister that Black was on the loose. Now, I realize that the WW could not be common knowledge among the Brittish Government, otherwise with all those loose lips in government (I know that is a generality) the WW would be common knowledge among the Brittish populace. I envision that perhaps only the most top eschelon of the government knows about the WW. Do you suppose they would tell the Queen? I am certain that once a Muggle born child is discovered to be a witch or a wizard, Minerva McGonnagal sends instructions to the parents that they must not let the general populace know their child is magical. I think that the teachers are responsible enough and well aware of the importance of keeping the WW secret, that they do include ethics while they teach their students. Yes, even Snape would do that in a round about dysfunctional way. Otherwise, how would you explain how angry he was at Ron and Harry at their unususal arrival at Hogwarts in CoS? (I know it was an opportunity to get Harry expelled or at least in very serious trouble.) And don't they mention the bilaws in Cos (or is that movie contamination, I don't have my books readily available). Of course, I could be wrong... D So sorry about the spelling here, where do I access a spell checker? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Oct 18 19:12:36 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:12:36 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: <20031017205015.69519.qmail@web11407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Nora Renka wrote: > An intended-to-be-short response here; as much as I'm > enjoying this conversation, it's veering off into the > unprovable. Let me make some statements upfront about > the first part of the post I'm replying to: quite > simply, we have a radically incomplete picture of the > Snape/MWPP dynamic, and any argument made is going to > have serious holes. There is no explanation of the > prank incident that makes full sense to me. There's > no direct incident in canon showing Snape getting the > better of James et al., but there well could have > been. I suspect that's an authorial tactic, for later > revelations. I could be wrong, but I suspect that I'm > not, here. :) This is why I never ever do work on > works in progress... > Good heavens! Not speculate? How can this be? JKR has set us a cracking selection of puzzles. I for one relish the chance of pitting my wits against hers knowing that the odds are stacked against me. To wait, tapping the foot and checking my watch until the next volume is not a reasonable option for an inquiring mind. Yes, Holmes said "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has the facts," but there are enough of those available to construct a fascinating selection of hypotheses which can be tested against the wit and caprice of other posters. To do otherwise would be to limit ourselves to a species of literary archaeology. Very unadventurous. Nora: > Let me simply note here that 1) we don't know whether > Sirius 'reformed' at school or whether he was already > sick of it all...this is unproven, but I got the image > of a little Sirius who already dislikes what his > family spouts sitting on the chair and being sorted > into Gryffindor, which then *completely* shoots his > family relations. 2) In this passage, Sirius is being > remarkably (for him, at least) charitable to Snape, > even thinking that he possibly wasn't involved as a > DE. Kneasy: Hanging around the family home it is highly likely that Sirius learned quite a lot about Dark Magic, whether he liked it or not. It would be an everyday, family activity. I get the impression that Sirius is consistently wrong about a lot of things; constantly stumbling from one cock-up to another. He seems particularly bad as a judge of character. I distrust his opinions on such matters and his assessment of Snape reinforces my views. Nora: > Bierce wasn't a cynic because he cared. And for a > true cynic, the yardstick is (ironically enough) > themself. Because to the true cynic, *he* can see all > the corruption around him, and everyone else is simply > deluding themselves. Mencken is someone I enjoy in > small doses, because you come to realize how > profoundly unproductive his attitude is. That level > of corrosion can't build, it can only tear down. I > always feel sorry for cynics, because they're locked > in their own self-confidence of their complete > knowledge. Kneasy: Are you surprised that I disagree? Corruption occurs with disappointing frequency, but what is more hilarious is the self deception of the so-called rational man. Rationalising man is more accurate. The excuses after the event enter the realms of fantasy and whimsy. The fault is universal and nearly everybody pretends it isn't there. What a joke! Nora: > [An interesting side point; I don't think Snape is a > true cynic. I think he leans to that side, and that's > when he's most regrettable. I do acknowledge that at > times he's profoundly right; the setup in PoA with his > comments about James is a good case in point. Funny, > though, how he often manages to either be wrong when > he's being right, or to be right for the entirely > wrong reason...and I admit, I'm a Kantian, reasons > matter.]> Kneasy: Snape is too intense and focussed to be a cynic. He lacks a sense of the ridiculous necessary when dealing with human foibles. I see him as pragmatic; he won't care about theory or analysis so long as he gets to where he wants to be. He sees almost everyone else as a distraction or a tool. I wouldn't see him as a Kantian, his emotions will over-rule logical thought if my theories are correct. (BTW, how are Kantians coping with empirical logic?) Nora: > I will completely and utterly take you on and destroy > you on the opera point, but I'm a musicologist. Bring > it! ;) > Kneasy: Quite probably. But I can't take opera seriously. Once I was asked to leave the auditorium because I couldn't stop laughing. (A vastly overweight soprano pretending to be a slip of a girl. Ridiculous.) Nora: > It's more powerful than despair, or disillusionment. > It comes from someone who's been a powerful moral > voice in the cycle, but who now proclaims that there > are *no* differences to be found between the good and > the bad; she simply wants her revenge, and states "The > blood of one will pay for all of your crimes!" Her > ready willingness to give up distinctions between > polar opposites leads to death and destruction. It's > moral cowardice to abdicate judgement like that. Kneasy: You presented Brunnhilde as the epitome of cynicism. Are you now claiming that cynicism is more powerful than despair or disillusionment? If so we have been talking about vastly different things. Cynicism is not an emotion or an aspect of revenge; it is an intellectual viewpoint. Nor does it claim there is no difference between good or evil, but that one can masquerade as the other for advantage. Nora: > Ambushing a student like he does on the first day of > class? I've seen that done by professors, but it's > either 1) the whole class, and that's a tactic usually > only taken on grad students (who should know their > stuff) or upper-level undergrads, or 2) in a specific > case I know of, it was the professor being a sexist > pig and trying to run out a woman from the class. > That second case is nasty and inexcusable, and it's > not mindless, it's *deliberate*. Hmm, there's a > thought; deliberate transferrance is a considerably > more heinous sin than mindless, wouldn't you say? :) > Kneasy: You are probably too young and in the wrong country. It was quite a common opening gambit in Grammar Schools in the UK, certainly in the 50s when I attended one. Students (and society) were so much less fragile then. Understandable, the generation above us had fought and died in a major war. Hogwarts would be entirely recognisable to those of my generation in its organisation, teachers, teaching systems, modes of address and school ethic, including division into four Houses. Some difference in subject matter, of course. Nora: > Stoicism is a moral system that requires a rational > evaluation of harm by the individual. It makes you > ask questions like "How bad was what was done to me? > Why was it bad?" There are standards here, > internalized in this moral system, so that it is up to > the individual, but it is certainly not completely > subjective. This and other systems demand that the > victim think through what has happened, not react > blindly, and yes, these do often include an assessment > of the emotional impact, as well. You can be rational > and not bloodless, after all. Kneasy: I doubt Snape is in a philosophical frame of mind. Nora: > I got the impression overall from the flashbacks that > the family life was profoundly unhappy, not in the > sense of 'oh, an occasional row', but in the sense of > something more disturbing than that.... Do I think > that's affected Snape's behavior? You betcha. Kneasy: Flashbacks? There was only one, (plus a bored teenager) that are possibly from the Snape household. Even then we are not certain what is going on. This is just the sort of misdirection that I fear from JKR. Make us comfortable in our certainty and then pull the rug out. Nora: >Do I think he's still > morally cretinous at times? Sure do. Children aren't > fragile little flowers, but when you hurt them, they > have wounds that often take a long time to heal. > Harry's really started to show this past book. Kneasy: Can't agree on morally cretinous. Amoral suits better, IMO. Cold, amoral, pragmatic and vengeful. Fiction needs a few more like him to add zest to some of the too many depressingly mundane books foisted onto the public. From grahadh at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 12:46:43 2003 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:46:43 -0000 Subject: Lockhart/Longbottoms In-Reply-To: <20031017152726.16659.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83081 I've been thinking about both the Longbottom's incapacitation in St. Mungo's and the fact that the prophecy from OoP could have applied to Harry or Neville and am wondering if there could be some sort of connection there. Dumbledore and the other members of the original OoP could not have known whether Voldemort was going to choose Harry or Neville. This means that the Longbottoms were in grave danger as well: they were aurors, members of OoP, and their son fit the description of the prophecy. So it seems probable that the Longbottoms must have been in hiding also. Dumbledore said that Voldemort chose Harry, but I'm not so sure. I think that he simply got to Harry first via Wormtail, and would have gone after Neville as well had the curse not backfired. So my question are: -Did Voldemort really choose Harry specifically,or was he ultimately after both boys, got to Harry first, and the prophrcy just got carried out from there? -Were the Longbottoms tortured simply because they were aurors, or because of their connection to the prophecy as well? -We were told that they were tortured for information as to the whereabouts of Lord Voldemort after the curse rebounded. Did the Longbottoms even know that information and why would the LeStranges think they knew that information? -Were they actually being tortured for information about the prophecy and that is why they are being kept alive but incapacitated (possibly through the influence of Lucius Malfoy)? Any thoughts? -D.G. From MadameZero at aol.com Sat Oct 18 12:55:39 2003 From: MadameZero at aol.com (Antbee78) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:55:39 -0000 Subject: Cats (was Re: COS clues) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83082 >Laurasia wrote: > > That's an intersting point! And, remember in OotP when Harry is > taking the Occumency lessons and one of the visions he has is of > Hermione covered in fur, when she was turned into a cat? I thought > that was extremely bizzare- mostly because we never saw Harry have > a vision of Hermione petrified. I would assume that Harry was much > more distraught when Hermione nearly *died* rather than when the >Polyjuice Potion backfired. So, why bring up the fact that Hermione >turned into a cat in OotP? Unless it's significant... AntBee responded: I thought that scene was just significant because Harry was trying to cover up the fact that he and his friends had in fact stolen Boomslang skin from Snape. Snape had suspected Harry of doing so in "GoF", but it turned out to be Crouch Jr., who was actually stealing from Snape; however, that of course, doesn't mean that Harry was not guilty of stealing from Snape, he's just never been found out yet until the Occlumency lessons. >Laurasia wrote: > There's something weird going on with people and their cats for > sure... Also- note the seemingly large amount of cats with names > starting with 'Mr' or Mrs.' Mrs Norris, Mr Tibbles, Mr Prentice (Figg > mentions him at the start of OotP, there's no actual proof he's a > cat, but seeing as she doesn't mind him seeing Harry with his wand > out, he couldn't be a Muggle- so I'm just assuming he's a cat). Are > they really people who have been unrepairably tranfigured into cat > form? Any ideas? AntBee replied: Sorry, I don't have any theories about cats, just more questions like why did Ginny Weasley have so many cat descriptions in "OotP", and if this is connected at all with what is important about cats that we're supposed to find out later on. -AntBee From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Sat Oct 18 14:38:04 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:38:04 -0400 Subject: ghosts in JKR's works Message-ID: <009601c39585$726de6e0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83083 There has been a lot of talk about who might come back as ghosts in the HPseries. I don't think JKR will have anybody return as a ghost, because she is very aware that there are children reading this series who have lost or about to lose a beloved family member to death. When OoP came out, my 36 year old sister-in-law lay dying of breast cancer. She had 3 boys, 7, 9 and 11 year of age. The oldest, Alex, was a big fan and was very eagerly reading OoP. I remeber discussing with another sister-inlaw whether we should tell Alex's father about the discussion about death in the book, as he was involved in round the clock care of his wife at that point and of course had no time or interest to read the book. We concluded that JKR had done an excellent explanation of death for us. She conveys that to die and to accept one's death takes courage, and that there is hope that we may see them again, as in Harry's conversation with Luna. Two weeks later, my sister in law was dead. I like to think that Alex's reading of OoP may have in some small way helped him to adjust to this tremendous loss. The other group of children that JKR is writing to are those children who are facing death through illness. In my case, although my children enjoyed the HP series, I did not read them until my 3rd child, second son, was diagnosed with Leukemia when he was 15. He had to deal with the fact that some of his friends in the cancer ward have died, and although he is in remission right now, death is very much a reality for him. He had to spend much of his high school years in hospital, undergoing very painful procedures, isolated from other teens. When he went to live in a dorm for his first year of college, (gainst the doctor's orders,because his immune system was so bad), what helped him was the fact that at a Halloween party his first year there, other students told him he looked like Harry Potter. He is on the small side, thin, blue eyes, and thick dark hair. He became a big fan of the books, and so I started reading them too. I can identify very much with Molly as the mother of 9 children, and living every day with the thought that I might lose of one of my children to an illness which is random and very difficult to fight. I really want to credit JKR for not avoiding a difficult subject like death, but instead has Harry ask what happens when you die. Her answers through Nick and Luna are insightful and profound, IMHO. Mary Jo ADMIN Note: Please make sure that any on-list responses to this message focus on death in the HP books; other messages should be sent to OTChatter or offlist to Mary Jo. Thanks! From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Oct 18 19:19:51 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:19:51 -0000 Subject: what kind of story is HP? (was:Re: Who will betray the order) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83084 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Geoff: > Jo Rowling, in the Harry Potter books, focusses on one character, > Harry, who has a charge placed on him by the prophecy (Which I tend > to take at face value) to carry the ring. Geoff (later!): I obviously had a brain fade at this point. What I should have said was: "Harry, who has a charge placed on him by the prophecy (Which I tend to take at face value) to vanquish Voldemort if he can. Do not panic; I am not planning to send him to the Sammath Naur (Chambers of Fire) to help Frodo. Apologies again. (Where's the iron?) Geoff From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 20:08:43 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Elves' Magic and Possible Involvement with LV Message-ID: <20031018200843.50163.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83085 18October2003 Hello All, This topic has been in the back of my mind for some time, and has recently resurfaced after reading some recent posts. Please be patient, I'd like to follow a thread here: 1) Dobby, the first house elf we meet has sufficient magical powers to apparate and alternate a spell. He apparates to the Dursleys and has sufficient power to close the entrance to the Hogwart's Platform to Harry(Book 2). 2) For whatever reason, he feels obliged to save Harry and was prepared to betray the Malfoys by accepting freedom and going to work at Hogwarts. However, in Book 4, he's not so proud of his freedom when Hermione raises the subject in the Hogwart kitchen. In Book 5, he's picking up Hermione's clothing for elves to prevent other house elves from taking them and gaining unwanted freedom. 3) Winky, on the other hand didn't want freedom. But aside from this fact, Barty Crouch mentions that Winky bound him to her with her "special magic". She never wanted freedom from the Crouch's, has had a drinking problem since being released from them, and is shunned by fellow elves working in the kitchen. Could this be a hint to some kind of house elf ethic? Question 1: What is the extent of house elves' magical ability--how could a house elf bind a full grown wizard? 4) Now on to Kreacher: He's absolutely faithful to the Black legacy of purebloods. In Book 5, he disappears for a few days and reappears more cheerful with a picture of Beatrix LeStrange, torturer of the Longbottoms. Who, as far as we know, is still considered a criminal. We know where Kreacher's sympathies lie. Question 2: Could it be that there is a division in the ranks of house elfdom--those on the side of LV and those against? Could house elves be serving some kind of penalty of servitude for crimes in the past--no one seems very sympathetic to their plight. I see a hint in all this that they have or still do possess some kind of dark magic or possibly have been involved in some great crime and/or cruelties. My personal theory is that they bear a "Mark of Cain", so to speak that we will see in 6 or 7. Anyone have more evidence based on canon or interviews? Granny --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Oct 18 21:14:01 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:14:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and "The Big Read" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83086 The Big Read is a BBC TV national poll to find the Nation's (UK) favourite book. Telecast tonight has covered which books polled the top 21 books. Goblet of Fire is included in the top 21. Sadly, Prisoner of Azkaban, Chamber of Secrets and Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone were in the top 100 but did not make the final cut. Telephone and web lines open to vote on the final order at 10.30 pm (UK standard time) http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/bigread/ This is hot off the presses - I saw it and raced to post! June From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 18 21:21:19 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:21:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizarding numbers References: <1066435012.4421.29598.m16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c395bd$c683f480$16e66151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 83087 Mikael wrote: >years. Rather, I'd say that the wizarding world has had low mortality and >low fertility for ages, if not forever. Until I read OoP, I'd have illuminated this by pointing out the relatively small numbers of wizards in canon who have sisters or brothers. The Weasleys seemed exceptional in their family size compared to the others. However, one thing which changed that, at least to a degree, was the Black Family Tapestry, which does refer to some larger family sizes. I'd be uncomfortable with the thought that wizard birth rates were less than the replacement rate, because it would then imply that the only way the WW population would be able to maintain itself would be by muggle born additions. But the number of muggle borns is incredibly small, IMO too small to be able to make up the numbers. >I note that you snipped my proposal for why the WW has had such low rates. >Oh well. It seems eminently reasonable that wizards have enjoyed lower >mortality rates than muggles since the ancient past. Potions for various >maladies and and protective spells go a long way to fend off accidental, >natural deaths. With their magical power combined with house-elf or muggle >labour, wizards shouldn't need to worry about famine or back-breaking >drudgery in the fields, and thus few deaths to malnourishment, relative to >the muggles. Given lower mortality rates than muggles, wizarding fertility >rates *must* have been comparatively low as well, or wizards would quickly >out-grow the muggles. Unless you also assume that the wizard:muggle ratio has grown over the years. (Perhaps the combination of larger muggle population size together with a growing WW ratio has made the Statute of Secrecy pinch more over the years, increasing wizard resentment and feeding anti-muggle prejudice. Just a thought...) Magic could of course also be a means of ensuring that no unwanted children are born, which would be a downward pressure on population. However, it also appears that wizards mature (both physically and socially) at the same rate as muggles (coming of age at 17) but their adulthood is considerably longer. This in turn would mean that a witch would have a far longer period of fertility and could space children out far more easily. This could of course be an explanation (as others have surmised) for the low number of sisters and brothers mentioned in the Hogwarts context. What makes the Weasleys unique in this theory is the fact that they have had their children relatively close together in time, rather than the actual numbers. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From catlady at wicca.net Sat Oct 18 21:50:01 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:50:01 -0000 Subject: Snape/Metamorphmagus/wizarding population/SalazarDescendents/Remus/Ethics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83088 Alison Williams wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82968 : << Given his outrageous bias towards the members of Slytherin House might it draw out - eventually - some grudging respect to know that the Hat was of the opinion that Harry 'would have done well in Slytherin'? >> It seems to me more likely that that Snape would be additionally enraged at Harry by learning that Harry had rejected Snape's House with most insulting intensity. -"The arrogant brat thinks he's too good for MY House!"- Inge wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82981 : << What if Barty Ferm Jr still exists - on special occassions. What if Tonks could Metamorph into Ferm Jr and take his place at the DE meetings and get information directly from Voldemort to pass on to the Order. >> You explained that Barty Ferm is Danish for Barty Crouch. Does Ferm mean something in Danish? "Crouch" is a name of some real people and also an English word meaning "to bend down". JKR might have chosen with some thought of Crouch Sr "lowering" his morals to the level of the opponent when he authorised use of Unforgiveable Curses and so on. After GoF there was tons of speculation that someone (perhaps Snape) would use Polyjuice to impersonate young Barty among the Death Eaters, and tons of replies that Polyjuice is way too overused. (Also discussion of who knows that Junior was Kissed -- and the possibility that he *wasn't* Kissed: we have only McGonagall's word for that, and some people think McGonagall is Ever So Evil.) There was discussion when OoP was realised of whether Metamorphmagism can be a replacement for Polyjuice ... how MUCH can a Metamorpmagus change hiser appearance? Can they change their mass (as Harry and Ron did when Polyjuicing into Crabbe and Goyle), can they make an entire bodily organ vanish away (as Barty's eye and leg did when he Polyuiced into Moody), can they change their sex (we actually don't even know if Polyjuice can do that), can they ever stop resembling themselves? The stuff Marci discussed in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83057 Ffred Manawydan (who predicted me too well) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82982 : << Some of the things that need to be factored in to try to think about the size of the WW (and I agree that the British Isles is probably the relevant unit here) are - the number of professional quidditch teams and the likely fan base that would be needed to support them (your figure would imply that there are less than 500 wizards in Wales, for example, even though there are two professional quidditch teams requiring support - the diversity and size of the media (at least one radio station, the Daily and Evening Prophet, the Quibbler, Witch Weekly, and a number of other publications, plus a very healthy-seeming book market) - the number of wizards who work for the Ministry - if they are working for the bureaucracy, then a certain number of other wizards need to exist working elsewhere in order to generate the cost of their wages >> In my opinion, we don't need to think how many wizards would have to work to make enough money to pay the wages of wizarding bureaucrats, book publishers, and Quidditch players, because (in my opinion) a great deal of the money in the wizarding world is 'made' by magic. We only need to think of the number of wizards needed to fill all the jobs (including the 'job' of customer). Which leads me to wonder how many people are needed for a professional Quidditch team --- seven starting players and how many reserves? One or more coaches? One or more trainers, medi-mages, and masseurs -- or are all those jobs replaced by one witch and her magic? One or more broomstick tenders, or do the players tend their own? Talent scouts, ticket sellers, groundskeepers, ushers, food and souvenir vendors -- how many stadia are there? (COuld there be only one, gov't-owned, stadium, so that no two matches could take place at the same time?) A publicist for each team, a licensing manager for each team (or one for the whole deal), or do the owners do that themselves? A meteorolo-mage (weather witch), not only to predict the weather of next match so that the coach can choose the best strategy and players for those weather conditions, but also to analyse all the little air currents that might give an ittybitty headwind or tailwind to broomstick flyers? Or would that be only one for the League? How many devoted fans and how many more-casual spectators are needed? My particular, digressional, concern is that all the kids are locked up in Hogwarts nine-some months out of the year, unable to attend the pro matches and apparently having no Wizarding Wireless at Hogwarts to listen to the live coverage. Robert Shaw wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83034 : << Fewer muggles born in 1914-19 means fewer muggle-born wizards, hence fewer wizards in total, and so on. >> Only if the number of muggle-born wizards is proportional to the number of Muggles born. Even if inheritance of wizardry was a matter of Muggle genetics, if the birth dearth during the Great War affected parents who didn't carry the recessive gene for magic far more than the parents who did carry it, the decline in number of muggle-born wizards wouldn't be as great as the decline in the number of muggles born. In my own theory, is only partly a matter of Muggle genetics but also partly magical, with some deep magic causing that the number of magic babies born equals the number of mages who die, so that number of Muggle-born wizards has nothing to do with the number of Muggle births, but only with the excess of wizard deaths over wizard births. Therefore, my theory holds that the first Voldemort Reign of Terror ("the Bad Years") and the bad guys attempts to wipe out Muggle-born witches and wizards, with all the killing they did and the resulting discouragement of child-bearing by frightened people, had the ironic result of significantly increasing the number of Muggle-born magic children born. So that the proportion of Muggle-born students at Hogwarts was higher than usual in the classes from the one that was seventh-year when Harry was first to Ginny's class. << The wizardly birth rate fall may be within wizardly living memory. >> I feel sure that the wizarding birth rate fall was more than 2000 years ago, maybe it was 8000 years ago. JKR has presented a wizarding world in which equal opportunity of wizards and witches seems to be the default position (which is consistent with a society in which amount of magic power correlates more with control of other people than does amount of physical strength.) Elfrida Clagg (wrongly called Cragg in OoP) was Chief of the Wizard's Council in the mid-1300s. There are witches on every professional Quidditch team as well as an all-female Quidditch team. I am sure that very few witches can achieve a great career while caring for as many children as Molly Weasley (almost as low as the proportion of Muggle women who can do it), therefore the witches always user their contraceptive and conceptive magic to space their children, holding down the average number of children per family. I believe that there have always been Muggle-born wizards because the wizarding folk have never, in the last 3000 years, had a birth rate up to replacement level, because many wizards and witches never bothered with marriage and/or child-bearing at all. Sherrie Snape wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82983 : << As to how Voldie could be Sally Sly's last descendant - Wizarding families in general (Weasleys excluded) seem to be very small. If Ms Marvolo-Riddle was the only child of the only child of the only child (& so on ad nauseum), then her only child (being one snot-nosed Tom Riddle, Jr.) would be the last of his line, until/unless he himself chose to breed. Just as Sirius was the last of the direct line of the Blacks. >> But last of the direct line is far from last descendent ... Sirius was the last of the direct line of the Blacks, but not the last descendent of Phineas Nigellus. There is Draco and Tonks in the younger generation, and maybe all those Weasley kids (Arthur as fifth cousin twice removed might be descended from Phineas Nigellus) and probably others we don't know about. For TMR to be the last descendent by being the only child of only child ad infinitum, ol' Salazar would have had to have only one child himself. I find that terribly unlikely ... someone posted: "Who would want to marry Salazar?" I'm sure that many witches would have wanted to marry him because he was famous and powerful and doubtless wealthy (a common side-effect of power) AND many wizarding families would have wanted to make a marriage alliance with him and/or get his genes into their pedigree. Malfoys, for example, I believe married a daughter (a sister of the Malfoy heir) to Salazar, and then married her daughter to her brother's son, the heir's heir. I believe that Salazar had no ethics preventing him from multiple bigamy ... and no ethics preventing him from 'seducing' witches by use of Imperius curse. Result: more than one offspring. I have a big problem with canon, because I *don't* believe that Tom Riddle was the last descendent of Salazar Slytherin, but Dumbledore said so, so Dumbledore cannot be omniscent and always truthful. Laura wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83043 : << Remus was on the train because DD wanted him there, wasn't he? >> Yup. << It's coincidence that HRH ended up in the same compartment with Remus. >> I think not. I think that Remus was able to arrange it because he had been informed about the Weasleys always arriving late. So by the time that they arrived at Platform 9 3/4 with Harry, the only compartment with enough room was the one that students had avoided because there was an adult [pretending to be] asleep in it. If the Weasleys were prompt arrivers, he would have had to come into their compartment at the last minute, say: "Mind if I sit here, there are no other seats left?" and then [pretend to] fall asleep, which would have made the kids more watchful of him. June Diamanti wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83074 : << Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? There seems to be the minimum of restraint on the entire wizarding population - right, every underage wizard risks serious educational penalties if they break the underage rules, but where does that leave the adult wizard? Pretty much in the middle of a free for all. (snip) All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the Hogwarts curriculum. When it isn't appropriate to use spells, when it is. Is there any other effect of spells apart from the obvious. For instance, if you used magic to push some clouds away because they were raining on you, what is the effect of those clouds raining somewhere else and is it a good effect? >> to which Laura replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83076 : << This bears on the discussion a little while ago about the ethics of legilimency. The absence of any reference to a code of behavior, be it moral/ethical or legal, is conspicuous. Laws seem to spring up in the WW sort of arbitrarily. (snip) nor does there seem to be any person or persons who are ethical experts for the WW. (snip) I would guess that it's a combination of wanting to avoid religious controversy and not wanting to slow down the telling of the stories that has made JKR stay away from the idea of moral training. >> It seems to me that JKR very deliberately created this fascinatingly "wand happy" society in which ethics are nothing more than one's personal business. The wizarding world is shown as a place where society in general and the legal system views Dark Arts (except for a few specified curses and artifacts) as a perfectly respectable career choice ("terrible, yes, but great"), where people widely known to be former Death Eaters who got off punishment by lying are respected leaders of society, where something being illegal means "don't get caught" rather than "don't do it". Some listies state that that society is not merely amoral, but entirely corrupt. Certainly it appears that the entire Ministry of Magic is so corrupt that even our beloved Arthur Weasley, who DOES have ethics in terms of he really DOES care sympathetically not to hurt Muggles who can't defend themselves, not just to protect wizarding secrecy, and his opposition to Voldemort and so on, has not the slightest qualm about getting those *expensive* World Cup Final tickets in exchange for "fixing" an enchanted-Muggle-artifact ticket ... This goes along with statements by listies that the wizarding world is set up in such a way that it keeps having one Dark Lord (or Lady) after another. A society that generates evil-doers. One reason OUTSIDE of the Potterverse is that JKR built the wizarding world to have similarities to our RL fantasies, fairytales, and folklore, so that readers can 'believe' that our RL lore really is a distorted reflection of the wizarding world, and our RL lore includes a *lot* of evil or at least amoral and power-hungry wizards and witches. A justifying reason INSIDE the Potterverse is that so many witches and wizards have so much magic power that a serious effect by the good guys to arrest & imprison or kill the bad guys (or by the bad guys to do so to the good guys) could result in a devasting civil war that could destroy the wizarding world, so good guys and bad guys (oversimplified as Gryffindors and Slytherins) have made a cease-fire or truce or peace. Samnanya wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83077 : << The ethical training in the books is carefully woven into the story, warts and all...... Let JKR continue to do the job that she has done so well so far, keeping us awake and entertained while doing so. >> to which June Diamanti replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83078 : << No - it isn't. >> I'm sorry, June, I think Sam was right about that (altho' about nothing else in his post except the blunt compass). JKR has placed good kids like Harry and Hermione into a corrupt society so that their reactions to what goes on around them will make the readers think about what is right and what is wrong. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 21:52:36 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:52:36 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: <496CC708-00DB-11D8-8DEB-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83089 wrote: > Assailed on two fronts; no matter. Though the way be long and weary, onwards I toil, bearing a banner with a strange device. > Laura: Cry me a river. You know you love it. > > First Laura, with snipping: > > > We said several posts back that Snape *is* his anger. He has long ago chosen to make rage, contempt, cruelty and disregard his emotional vocabulary. > > Kneasy: > Not sure what you mean by "...disregard his emotional vocabulary.." > I think it speaks to him clearly - a bright core of tightly focussed anger. This is a cold man. Group hugs would never appeal even if his life had been uneventful. > I sympathise. Ersatz coercive bonhomie does not appeal to me either. > Laura responds: I may have written unclearly-I meant to use disregard as a noun, as in disregard of others. Yes, Snape is cold on the outside, raging on the inside. I'm not talking about ersatz coercive bonhomie (nice phrase). I'm talking about normal, volitional relationships. He rejects any form of connection except the most superficial, as far as I can see. And he might well have done so under less dramatic circumstances. But he can't legitimately go around believing that he has suffered more than others whose families were killed by LV and his little friends. > Laura > > > Yes, I agree that Snape seeks catharsis. I wonder, though, what will change about him if and when he gets it. What I'm trying to get at is that I think Snape likes being angry. I'm not sure he perceives it as suffering at all, although we readers do. > > > > Kneasy: > He probably does nurture his anger, but to him it is a justifiable > anger. So why let it go? Laura responds: Sure, but what I'm asking is what happens after the catharsis you say he needs. Let's say he kills LV (which I don't think will happen, but this is more to do with Snape's character than with plot predictions). My sense is that he wouldn't change one bit. Yet isn't catharsis supposed to achieve something? Isn't it supposed to allow a person who is suffering from an inner injury to find resolution, and thus allow him/her to rid him/herself of the resultant feelings of anger, anxiety and frustration? Cold would be okay. Snape doesn't have to buddy up with anyone. He can be a loner. But Snape is beyond cold. He takes positive pleasure in belittling, insulting, intimidating and humiliating those of his students who are his chosen targets. Do you see that as his way of sublimating his anger against LV? I don't. I think it's a kick for him and it wouldn't stop if LV were dead. > > Laura: > > > I don't agree that he's repressing his anger-come on, when does he > ever do that? > > > Kneasy: > More crossed lines here, I think. My point was that some posters seem to want him to suppress it, work it out, come to terms with it. My reading of Snapes character is that this is foreign to his nature. Laura responds: So is catharsis possible for him at all? Or does he even want it? My understanding of catharsis is that it's a way of coming to terms with an emotional injury such that the poison, so to speak, is purged from the psyche. If the cathartic process is successful, compensatory behavior will end. But if Snape killed LV would he feel purged of his anger? I doubt it. He was angry before LV came on the scene and he'll keep being angry afterwards (if he lives that long). I think what he wants is not catharsis, not healing, but revenge. Now I'm not saying he's wrong-if LV did murder his family Snape has every right to want to want him to suffer in turn. But I'm not sure I believe that revenge brings healing. You can hurt the person who hurt you and still feel injured. The idea of catharsis is that the pain of the injury disappears (although it might take a while). > Laura: > > > I don't think we've scratched the surface when it comes to > understanding where Snape's anger comes from. Here's what we do > know: he arrives at school already well versed in the dark arts... > Kneasy: > Well versed? One comment from Sirius about Snape knowing more Dark Magic when he joined the school than half the seventh year. This from a scion of the evil Black family and who probably knew just as much if not more of Dark Magic at the age of eleven (he didn't 'reform' until after he joined Hogwarts). Laura responds: I looked through canon and didn't find any other references to Snape's childhood expertise with the dark arts, so yeah, we have only Sirius's comment, which also says that Snape was "famous" for his attraction to the dark arts at school. That sounds to me like more than personal prejudice. And if you suspect Sirius of being equally knowledgeable, then who better to call Snape on it? > Kneasy: > Unsurprisingly, I don't agree with your interpretation of the 'prank'. Firstly, canon for 'after hours' please. It states 'evening'. Laura: You're right, canon doesn't say that it was after hours. However, we *never* see students outside the castle at night without explicit permission, or unless they're sneaking around under invisibility cloaks. So my inference was that Snape shouldn't have been outside at night. Kneasy: > Secondly, any teenager who goads, taunts, or 'jokes' another into > extreme danger is not blameless. School Rules? Who could envision > similar circumstances? What would cover the situation? > "Rule 17: Attempted manslaughter is not allowed." > Sirius should have been punished. He knowingly put Snape in danger. Laura responds: Really? What happened to the idea of personal responsibility? (Some libertarian you are, Kneasy.) If someone suggests that you do a certain thing, who has the power to decide whether to do it-them or you? Even teenagers don't do *everything* their peers tell them to, especially peers they hate. Snape was so consumed with his desire to get the goods on the Marauders that he didn't stop to think. His anger is misdirected-he let Sirius make a fool of him. Snape should be angry at himself for being so gullible. Sirius acted wrongly and should have gotten a stern lecture but I think that would have been enough. > > Laura: > > > Snape is so angry and insecure that he takes everything > as an insult except craven obedience-his reaction to Lily in Pensieve 2 is an example. If every interaction you try is met with hostility, the attempts will soon cease-as witness Lily. Yet no one did anything to Snape that he wasn't willing and able to > do to them first. > > > > Kneasy: > Wow! Where did you get this one from? Insecure? Just like Ghengis Khan. Expecting craven obedience from Lily? He just wanted her out of the way - she was just making things worse. Laura responds: Oh, so now it's Lily's fault that James humiliated Snape? Would it have been better if she ignored what was going on? She saw someone being victimized-in front of an audience-and tried to put a stop to it. Although I'll bow to your superior knowledge of male scuffle dynamics, I can't believe you think Snape's reaction to her is justifiable. Teenage!Snape is not adult!Snape. Yes, I think he acted the way he did because he felt odd, disliked and vulnerable-to me that adds up to insecure. His adult persona is his way of fixing that. Kneasy: > James and Sirius gang up on Snape; jump him without warning (such brave boys). He's disarmed before he knows what's happening. Both jinx him when he has no wand (just who the Slytherin and who the Gryffindor here?), then Lily jumps in. a nasty bunch of thugs. > > Proof please that Snape did anything to WMPP that was not provoked. > Laura responds: On rereading the pensieve 2 scene, I would have to say that Snape wasn't entirely defenseless. James walks up to him and speaks to him (wand not in battle position), Snape reaches for his wand, and then they begin. No, it was hardly their proudest moment. But Snape does manage to inflict a little injury. No, I don't like that scene at all. But I don't believe it happened in isolation. I went back and tried to find any reference to MWPP/Snape incidents other than the prank and couldn't find any, so yeah, I was making an assumption (caught red-keyboarded, I'm afraid). But I will argue that if James had been as bad as you think he was, I wonder if everyone except Snape would speak about him so fondly and with so many references to what a good person he was. Mayby you'd think this is a result of the circumstances of his death, but I have to believe it was more than that. > Kneasy: > I doubt Sirius would relish facing Snape without back-up. I doubt a fair fight would appeal to him. We all know characters like Sirius; > happy to instigate mischief but missing when the blame gets > apportioned. Snape seemed quite happy to take him on in Grimmauld > Place. Sirius? Wind and bombast and not much else IMO. The Ministry? No option without being accused of cowardice. Laura responds: Well, we've been around before on the subject of Sirius. All I'll add here is that if Sirius was willing to provoke his powerful and evil family at the age of 11 (according to your argument, because his being sorted into Gryffindor would have been a direct insult to his family), I sincerely doubt that he would ever have been afraid of Snape. As for the MoM, I can't believe that even you think he wouldn't have come to Harry's defense in a split second. No one, not even DD, was going to keep him away from the DoM that night. Don't worry about speculating-Holmes was talking about detection, not literary analysis. :-) From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Oct 18 22:05:31 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:05:31 -0000 Subject: Lockhart/Longbottoms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83090 D.G. wrote: > Dumbledore and the other members of the original OoP could not have > known whether Voldemort was going to choose Harry or Neville. >From Dumbledore's words it seems, indeed, that he wasn't sure which of the two expecting members of the Order was the one refered to in the prophecy. I myself believe that several members "knew" (that is, where "sure" that is was going to be one or the other). But yes, the doubt was there. > This means that the Longbottoms were in grave danger as well: they > were aurors, members of OoP, and their son fit the description of the > prophecy. So it seems probable that the Longbottoms must have been in > hiding also. Agreed. I believe they were also protected by a Fidelius Charm, and that their secret keeper was probably Dumbledore, which might have been the reason why Voldemort went for Harry first - but more about that in a second. I think it was Dumbledore because there must have been a good reason for not choosing Dumbledore as secret keeper for the Potters, and not wanting to put all the eggs in one basket (particularly such an obvious, if well defended, basket) might be one such reason. > Dumbledore said that Voldemort chose Harry, but I'm not so sure. I > think that he simply got to Harry first via Wormtail, and would have > gone after Neville as well had the curse not backfired. I believe the same thing. Voldemort is not stupid. If there is a prophecy about a boy that will kill you, and you doubt between two, you kill both, just in case. In fact, if there are several hundred, you do a Herod and kill them all just in case. > So my question are: > -Did Voldemort really choose Harry specifically,or was he ultimately > after both boys, got to Harry first, and the prophrcy just got > carried out from there? IMO, yes. There is some evidence, in fact: there is a line in the prophecy that identifies the correct child but that happens after birth and in fact involves Voldemort: the line about Voldemort marking him as equal. Now, we could discuss until our bodies were cold and buried about what would've happened if Voldemort had gone for Neville first (two options that I can think of: Neville is not the one, and dies, or both Harry and Neville could have been, and if targeted first Neville would've been the one with the scar), but really there is little way of really knowing. I must mention that there seems to be several members that believe that Neville *is* the one and that Harry is just hogging the fame, but I don't believe that - Harry fits the prophecy, having been marked as equal (parseltongue, great magical ability, etc) and so like any good self-fulfilling prophecy Voldemort created his nemesis when trying to eliminate it before it got started. > -Were the Longbottoms tortured simply because they > were aurors, or because of their connection to the prophecy as well? Voldemort doesn't strike me as the sort to give out information just because - but then, I'm an MDDT and thus believe that the Voldemort War in an information war were need to know basis is one of the main rules. That said, Bellatrix seems quite far up in the power structure so she might have been briefed about the prophecy. It is probably a combination of both things, though: Bellatrix and co. needed to find out so they targeted as far up as they could find: someone they could take but that could know the information. This discounts Dumbledore (who almost certainly knew but was unasailable) and probably most of the people outside the Order (since they would not know), so the Longbottom would have been chosen for being important yet vincible. > -We were told that they were tortured for information as to the > whereabouts of Lord Voldemort after the curse rebounded. Did the > Longbottoms even know that information and why would the LeStranges > think they knew that information? IMO, they never knew. Main reason? They didn't *need* to know, and what you don't know you can't spill. Dumbledore probably keeps information from his people for this very reason - it reduces their danger. Who would need to know? Basically Dumbledore's on-site spies (i.e. those in Albania) and, of course, Dumbledore himself. On the other hand, Dumbledore openly reveals this information in CoS so maybe it wasn't such a secret anymore. Which brings me to the next hypothesis: the Longbottoms didn't know because no-one knew - Dumbledore's spies were still looking for him when the Longbottoms were attacked. Finally, of course, maybe the Longbottoms *did* know and they managed to resist torture, even if it costed them their minds - this gives birth to an off-shoot theory: maybe Dumbledore started using need-to-know basis *after* seeing what knowing info they didn't need do to the Longbottoms. (There is one last hypothesis: they knew *and* spilled the beans, but I don't believe they did, so I'll let this one for some other enterprising listee). Why did the Lestranges attack them, then? Well, I touched that before: the Lestranges believed as Dumbledore did that Voldemort was still alive, and once their own resources to find their master were used up, they turned to the most probable faction to have some information (not the MoM, too into self-congratulatory celebration to even think about Voldemort's survival), their real nemesis: the Order of the Phoenix. Of course, by then the Order was pretty reduced (half their number being dead), and they knew that information wouldn't given out lightly, so they targeted, as I said above, as high up as they dared. Which meant the Longbottoms, heroes of the war after surviving three times the assault of Lord Voldemort himself. > -Were they actually being tortured for information about the prophecy > and that is why they are being kept alive but incapacitated (possibly > through the influence of Lucius Malfoy)? I doubt it - but then I don't think they're being purposedly incapacitated by anyone. Mental illnesses are the most difficult ones to cure, and if their presence was such an inconvenience (and I don't understand how it could be, since the culprits of their state were captured and imprisoned, so if the Longbottoms recovered their minds it is not as if they could point fingers to new people) they could simply be killed (security in the hospital being non-existant as we saw). About the topics that the Lestranges discussed with them, we cannot, of course, trust Bellatrix or Voldemort's word on it, so they might have discussed the weather for all I know, but it is of course possible that the matter of the prophecy popped up at some point or another. That said, I think that by that time, the Lestranges were more interested in finding their leader (and father figure, and probably lover) than in working out how he was beaten in the first place (denial being a typical result when one's God-figure suddenly proves to be a mere mortal) > Any thoughts? > -D.G. Many, I'm afraid, but that's probably because I've been away for some time now. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Oct 18 22:35:35 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:35:35 -0000 Subject: House Elves' Magic and Possible Involvement with LV In-Reply-To: <20031018200843.50163.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83091 Granny Goodwitch wrote: > 1) Dobby, the first house elf we meet has sufficient magical powers > to apparate and alternate a spell. He apparates to the Dursleys and > has sufficient power to close the entrance to the Hogwart's Platform > to Harry(Book 2). Just a nitpick: I think you mean *alter* a spell. If that is the case, IMO Dobby didn't change the spell - he either cancelled it or simply put one of his own just in front of it that would stop Harry and Ron from moving: an invisible wall, if you want - or rather, a version of the one used in Lucius at the end of CoS but just pushing back with enough force to stop them from crossing it (instead of throwing them back). > > Could this be a hint to some kind of house elf ethic? I believe that most of our interactions with the house elves give away more than hints about their ethics. They work - regardless of what Hermione believes, Elves like to work and *need to work* and you would be kinder to them if you forced them to stop breathing than if you forced them to stop working. > Question 1: What is the extent of house elves' magical ability-- I have no idea. So far, their powers seem limitless in raw potency, and are only kept in check by what the owner allows them (or they do "by accident" after which they have to punish themselves). > how could a house elf bind a full grown wizard? He would bind with his own magical powers, IMO. As you have pointed out, the powers of elves are very big - we have ample proof of it, like apparating inside Hogwarts. However, by their very nature they need to serve at a household and thus will bind themselves to a family to serve it for generations > Question 2: Could it be that there is a division in the ranks of > house elfdom--those on the side of LV and those against? It is not that simple. I think each house elf will naturally be on his family's side (I see Dobby as the great Elf exception, and Kreacher and Winky more typical house elves). Thus, if the family happens to be the sort that punishes house elves, the house elf will punish himself and if the family (like Hogwarts) happens to be of the good kind, they will wear proper house elf attires of good cloth and be properly taken care of (as far as they will allow to be taken care of, of course). But I think it is clear that the sides aren't LV and not-LV, but more "punishers" and "non-punishers", if there are factions at all - as I have said, I think it is more each elf defending his or her family's values. > Could house > elves be serving some kind of penalty of servitude for crimes in the > past--no one seems very sympathetic to their plight. I actually proposed something similar in my "Atan" theory of elf enslavement - only I suggested that the elves had too much power and had started to get out of control, and they decided to bond their magic to serving so they would survive. But I quite like the spin of this being some sort of penitence for crimes in the past (of course, if it is, they're quite cheerful about it). > My personal theory is that they bear a "Mark of Cain", so to speak > that we will see in 6 or 7. Anyone have more evidence based on canon > or interviews? > > Granny Unfortunately, not that I know of. We know very little about house elves, and no-one has asked about them in interviews (that I know of), So any big crimes or other reasons for enslavement will either be revealed in later books, or not at all. That said, I'm afraid that the reason will be more prosaic: they're traditionally like that. Just like trolls are big and smelly, house elves work until given clothes, after which they leave (see the shoemaker and the elves tale). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 23:28:58 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 23:28:58 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: . . . .there's a central tenet in the Earthsea stories that I personally feel is understated in the HP books and could possibly do with being touched on. Responsibility and magical power. (snip) However, there seems to be little taught to the budding wizards at Hogwarts the very central idea that with great power comes great reponsibility. > > Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? AP: It's always bothered me a little that Harry and friends left Draco and friends incapacitated by a variety of hexes and jinxes at the end of both GoF and OoP. Sure, Draco is an insufferable jerk (who meant to do Harry harm), but does he really deserve (as a human being) to be left in a luggage rack resembling [a]"giagantic slug squeezed into [a] Hogwarts uniform" (p. 864, OoP)? And all the joke merchandise that Fred and George are producing could be used all in fun (if the "victim" knows about the results in advance) or could be used on some unsuspecting person (as when Hermione stops them from doing their market testing on first years - p. 254, OoP). I think Rowling put a lot of the "moralizing" of her story in the mouths (or minds) of the characters. And that is a lot more effective, IMO, than overt moralizing. I do see Harry as an ethical person (won't elaborate with examples because I don't want to spend that much time on the computer!) who has a highly-developed ability to empathize with others. If we as readers identify with Harry, we will see the situation through his eyes and thus understand it through his ethic (a good example is Harry's struggle over not being chosen prefect). Harry even comes to understand the hated Snape a little better by viewing the scene in the pensieve (although at this point it doesn't seem to affect their interaction that much). But Harry has his blind spots too, and in the case of Draco, there's not a moderating viewpoint. Wonder if that is to come in future books? I agree with you that the WW seems more reactive than proactive when it comes to teaching responsibility. Dumbledore is the most overtly ethical of the adult characters (Mr. Weasley would come next, I guess). I've wondered what happens if Dumbledore dies(as has been predicted several times on this site). Who will step in to fill that void in ethical leadership? Who will pick up his fight to give rights to all magical creatures? Or will the "good side" win the battle to get rid of Voldemort but ultimately lose the war because there's no one to fight the prejudice that seems to make up the status quo in the WW? Sorry if I wandered too far off your original line of thought! From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 00:45:00 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 00:45:00 -0000 Subject: "Severus" trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "neith_seshat" wrote: > > there was a Roman Emperor, called Septimius Severus (Third Century > AD), from whom Snape's first name could have been taken. If I'm not > mistaken, he had even a strongest link with Britain, as he died at > Evoracum (nowadays, York). He came into power by fighting and winning > the other two contendants, Albus and Niger (white and black, by the > way...) So we have Severus Snape and Albus Dumbledore - who is Niger? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 19 00:54:35 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 00:54:35 -0000 Subject: "Severus" trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > > So we have Severus Snape and Albus Dumbledore - who is Niger? Sirius BLACK. From oiboyz at hotmail.com Sat Oct 18 14:13:01 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:13:01 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the > Hogwarts curriculum. When it isn't appropriate to use spells, when > it is. Is there any other effect of spells apart from the obvious. > For instance, if you used magic to push some clouds away because > they were raining on you, what is the effect of those clouds raining > somewhere else and is it a good effect? > > So what does anyone think? Am I just a stuffy spoilsport moralist, > have I missed entirely on some fairly explicit treatment of > responsibility by JKR, or does anyone agree that there should be > ethics classes? I have got to read that Earthsea trilogy. I keep hearing about it. A very interesting post, junediamanti-- the wizards in the HP universe do seem very wand-happy, and there's hardly any consideration devoted to the consequences of a spell. Interestingly, Umbridge is the only teacher I've seen who ever voices concerns about teaching dangerous magic to children. She teaches "the case for non- magical response to magical attack", and questions whether Snape's Strengthening Solution is appropriate for children. This seems to conflict with the reigning philosophy at Hogwarts, which is to stuff the kids' heads with all sorts of powerful and potentially lethal spells. And there *are* consequences, quite nasty consequences, resulting from teaching extremely powerful magic to immature children. Ron finds himself coughing up slugs for hours in Book 2. Malfoy and his cronies get hit with an assortment of horrible jinxes and hexes at the end of Book 4 and again at the end of Book 5, when they are transformed into slug-like things and left in the luggage rack to ooze. Harry uses his magical talent and magical objects (the Map, the Cloak) to get himself into all sorts of danger. Think about how *horrible* a lot of the events in HP land would be if they occurred in real life. Even the amusing Tarantellegra jinx would be hellish if it actually happened to you! But danger just isn't as big a deal in HP-- think of how Harry, only 14 years old, found himself fighting a very fierce dragon in front of stands of spectators in a school- approved event. It's always been my feeling that being in the magical world confers some sort of extra strength of mind, endurance, ability to bear pain-- *something* that enables wizards and witches to put up with (and recover quickly from) the horrible things that happen on a regular basis. I'd love to type more but I have an appointment! Probably just as well. :) "oiboyz" From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 17:08:13 2003 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Lady Pensieve) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:08:13 -0000 Subject: what kind of story is HP? (was:Re: Who will betray the order) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83096 Geoff: > I feel I must disagree with this view. Tolkien, in the Lord of the > Rings, focusses on one character, Frodo, who has a burden placed > on him to carry the ring. He has companions and friends - Sam, > Merry, Pippin, Gimli, Aragorn, Legolas et al. They are around him, > they support him, encourage him and help him. But Sam did end up being a ring bearer - briefly - but ring bearer still. Kathy ADMIN: Comparing HP to LoTR and other literature is perfectly appropriate for this list, as long as the other books are discussed as a way to illuminate HP. This post is OK, too, but take care not to branch off onto a discussion of LoTR itself. Cheers! From gartzen at e-mail.dk Sat Oct 18 22:46:19 2003 From: gartzen at e-mail.dk (gartzen88) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:46:19 -0000 Subject: Student Names mentioned in Sorting Ceremony No.1 In-Reply-To: <29.48b3af45.2ca8c3b3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 9/28/2003 5:23:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hedwigstalons at y... writes: > > > Who are THESE? Mandy Brocklehurst(Ravenclaw), Moon, Sally-Anne Perks, > > Lisa Turpin (Ravenclaw). > Sherrie adds: > Don't forget the elusive Blaise Zabini. We see him as the last student > sorted in Harry's year (into Slytherin) - and we've heard nothing more of him > since. Some theorize that the "stringy" Slytherin boy in the Care of Magical > Creatures class is Master Zabini, but as that's the only identification of that > boy, and we have no description of Zabini, there's no real basis for this > assumption - no real way to assign probability. > > Interestingly, "Sally-Anne" is missing from the OWLs - she should have been > in the same group as Harry - or possibly pushed him back into the next group. > Yet her name is never called - did she drop out? Have to repeat a year? Or > is this a FLINT - did JKR just forget about her? Another suspicious thing in the sorting is that Goyle is not mentioned... He should have been between Justin and Hermione but it seems like either he got sorted in 90/91 and did a year again, or else here is a unmentioned tim egap... Or maybe this is just a flint... I belive that he did a year twice. And my "proof" for that are the 41/42 names on the school list from "Harry Potter and Me". GartZen From furkin1712 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 01:05:41 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:05:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lupin Kill Sirius? (long) Message-ID: <110.296beb95.2cc33d65@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83098 In Response to Pippin's entire rant "Did Lupin Kill Sirius (long)" (I would quote the message but there are no specific parts I am speaking about and it would be too long to quote the whole thing so this is in response to Pippin's entire thought) I give you credit, that is very well thought out. However JKR says constantly that Lupin is her favorite character and as a writer I can say that favorites become like your children, something you don't want to hurt. However, he may be her favorite character because he's so evil in the end. Don't get me wrong, I Love Lupin! (And Sirius!) Not saying that Lupin's gonna be evil just saying that this is a well thought out theory. I commend you! However, I think you forgot to mention one thing: Why when they were trying to find a Secret Keeper for Lily and James did Sirius and James cut Remus out of the loop? In PoA Remus even says to Sirius "YOu thought I was the traitor I suppose?" Now why would they think Remus is the traitor when they had broken wizarding law for him and become unregistered Animagus? When they had betrayed Dumbledore's trust to stay with their friend? (I can only imagine the hell poor James went through trying to explain *that* to Lily, "yes darling we're all Unregistered Illegal Animagus and Remus is a werewolf.") But I disgress, why would they mistrust Remus enough to cut him completely out of the loop? What did he do to make them wary of him? Where was he all that time between Lily and James' death and becoming a teacher for Dumbledore, what was he doing? There are questions that need answering. Blue Eyes (also a major LOTR fan as I suppose Pippin is by her name) (I guess great minds like the same movies and books) *- Padfoot Forever-* From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sun Oct 19 02:32:16 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 02:32:16 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83099 June wrote: > When I first started reading the HP books back in 1997, when > dinosaurs roamed the earth, I was instantly struck by a comparison > with one of my (other) favourite books: The Earthsea Trilogy (now a tetralogy) by Ursula le Guin. Wendy: I have not read these, although have heard of them (and my husband agrees with you that they are very good). So, of course, my answer to this question won't come from the perspective of comparing the two series' - but that's not necessarily a bad thing, I suppose. June: > > Where precisely does the magic come from in the Potterverse? Yes we know that there are "wizarding families" who generally, though not always, produce wizarding children, and there are instances of a > kind of genetic mutation (for want of a better word) where non- > wizarding families (such as the Grangers) produce a magically > talented child. But does magic per se have a source - a wellspring? Is it like "the force" in the movies that must not be named? Is it finite - both as a general force of nature and are there finite quantities of magical powers in the wizard? Now me (Wendy): My theory is that magic *is* part of the divine energy of the universe, and is therefore infinite, and that originally, *all* humans were magical. For example, when cavepeople roamed the earth . . . that everyone had access to magical energy, but that it was perhaps a bit different than the way it is in the modern day (or maybe the energy isn't really different, but is just experienced or used by wizards differently). Magic as early humans knew it is what is now called "Ancient Magic" by modern wizarding folk. Then, for a variety of reasons, as human culture evolved, some of this connection was lost, and some people were born without the ability to perform magic. Through the centuries, more and more people were born without magic, and everyone began to notice that there was a difference, and this is when humankind sort of "split" into "Wizards/Witches" and "Muggles." Once the distinction between groups had been noticed, things like prejudice and persecution arose, which is about where JKR seems to begin the historical information about her world. And as things have progressed into the modern day, the way this energy is used has changed (becoming magic as it is taught at Hogwarts), but that occasionally a Witch or Wizard will tap into the power in the way Wizarding ancestors did . . . in other words, use the "Ancient Magic." This "theory" of mine is informed by a couple of things . . . first of all, I like it from an animistic point of view . . . that there is a spark of "divine energy" in all things, and that some people are better at tapping into this energy than others (which could manifest itself as magic), and that some people (Muggles) are completely disconnected from it. Another thing that planted this idea in my mind was something Alice Walker wrote into her novel "Temple of my Familiar." Bear with me . . . this may seem a bit far-out, but for some reason I'm inclined to mention it here . In that book, she talks about lions as having (in the ancient past) been able to communicate with humans. (IIRC, it was a telepathic communication - not speech). Anyhow, at some point, humans and lions had a "falling out" (my memory of this is really shaky, and I don't remember the details), and over the subsequent generations, this ability for lions and humans to communicate was lost. This is sort of how I see the "Ancient Magic" mostly dying out - for whatever reason, Muggles turned their backs on the divine (or magical) energy, and over time it was lost to all but a few of them. So, these few banded together and formed their own separate society. But, of course, since Wizards, Witches and Muggles are all human (and therefore FAR more similar than they are different), from time to time, Muggle parents give birth to an offspring with this "magical gene," or whatever it is in the makeup of Wizarding Folk that isn't present in Muggles. Okay. Maybe this doesn't really work - I'm not sure if "wizarding genes" and this idea of "original Ancient Magic inherant in all humans" can be reconciled. I'd love to hear any thoughts about this - if it seems to work, or not. In any case, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. (At least for the time being ). June: > The basis of magic in Earthsea is the name of things. Everything > has two names at least and in the case of humans - three. There is > the name you are called by your mother until you come of age, > your "true" name which is a secret you may wish to divulge to those > VERY close to you, and your use name by which most people know you. > Your true name actually defines you and if someone calls a wizard by > their true name - the wizard may be incapable of any > transformation. Knowing the real name of things is the cornerstone > of magic. Wendy again: This same idea is present in many human cultures, as well, although seems (at least from my perspective as a modern person in the Western world) to be mostly superstition. Thing for me about superstition is that I'm not willing to discount the validity of anything, really. Just because something doesn't seem likely (or doesn't seem to work in our society), doesn't mean that it's rubbish in another time or another place. (Just my own personal belief . . . YMMV ). This also reminds me of the belief of some people that making an image of a person captures a bit of the soul . . . something I've wondered about in relation to Wizarding photos, and particularly Wizarding portraits. It seems as though the whole *point* of Wizarding portraits is to capture a bit of the essence of the Witch or Wizard, otherwise just what exactly is interacting with the outside world? June: > The other major point made in the Earthsea books is that magical > power carries great responsibility - because when a magical spell is > worked it can have unknown repercussions on the general balance of > nature, thus: > > "A mage can control only what is near him, what he can name exactly > and wholly. And this is well. If it were not so, the wickedness of > the powerful or the folly of the wise would long ago have sought to > change what cannot be changed, and Equilibrium would fail. The > unbalanced sea would overwhelm the islands where we perilously > dwell, and in the old silence all voices and names would be lost." > > Indeed, the wizard who trains the central character rarely works > magic at all because although he is an undeniably powerful wizard, > the central lesson is do not do anything magically unless it is > necessary. Wendy: That's interesting. In some ways, this seems to mesh with our current understanding of Dumbledore. He doesn't seem to work a whole heck of a lot of magic, but we have seen him exhibit great power at those times when he is moved to use magic. (When he blasted down the door at the end of GoF, for example). On the other hand, we've also seen him conjure chairs and sleeping bags and things, when mundane methods could have been used instead, so I don't think we'll actually see JKR handle magic in this way. If anything, her magic seems to be "useful" above all else. Wizards use magic in many instances where Muggles have created technology to do the same thing - Wizards don't use the telephone, but instead use Floo Powder for communication; Molly makes a cream sauce come out of her wand instead of melting butter and cheese in her sauce pan. There are still some things about this use of magic that don't always make sense (not to me, anyway) . . . take the cream sauce, for example. Just where did that butter and cheese (or whatever - I don't often make cream sauces myself ) originate? Does she still have to shop for the food? Are there Wizarding farms and slaughterhouses and such? Or do they buy their produce from Muggles? How do the house elves at Hogwarts prepare all that food? Magically? I'm not sure that these things matter, but sometimes I wonder if JKR has actually thought through all these things and made sure her world really all "works." June: > Now while enjoying these books (both sets) I am not for a moment > advocating that JKR sits down and takes the line that ULG does. > Plagiarism notwithstanding, I find some of the concepts that > Earthsea puts across would be quite challenging for younger readers. > However, there seems to be little taught to the budding wizards at > Hogwarts the very central idea that with great power comes great > reponsibility. Wendy: I can think of very few instances where *any* ethical guidance was given at all. The Unforgiveable curses would be one example - the kids are taught not to do them. Although I'm not sure a satisfactory answer as to "why" was ever given. While I can personally, as an adult, come up with some good reasons for not using these curses, I'm not sure that all 14 year-olds couldn't use a lesson on this sort of thing. And telling students, "If you do this, you'll get sent to Azkaban," doesn't count. Another is the fact that Hermione is cautioned against mis-use of the Time-Turner, but again this seemed to me to be more of a "you could really screw things up if you're not careful" warning, rather than a concern of a purely ethical sort. Okay, having said that, I do see *some* indication that there is a sense of ethics in the WW, judging by Sirius' words in GoF: (UK hardcover, p 457) "Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorised the use of the Unforgiveable Curses against suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark Side. He had his supporters, mind you - plenty of people thought he was going about things the right way, and there were a lot of witches and wizards clamouring for him to take over as Minister for Magic." And later, Sirius also praises Moody for his actions during the war: (p 462) "I'll say this for Moody, though, he never killed anyone if he could help it. Always brought people in alive where possible. He was tough, but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters." So there *is* a concept of ethics in the Wizarding World, we just haven't seen much of it taught at Hogwarts. Perhaps JKR is assuming that Hogwarts students bring with them some sort of ethical framework equivalent to what people in the real world would have, and she dosn't plan to specifically address this. To take it a bit further, Wizarding society in general is not what I'd call "pacifistic." The WW has the equivalent of the Death Penalty (Dementor's Kiss), plus what I'd personally consider "cruel and unusual" punishment in the form of Azkaban Prison under the guard of the Dementors. The other thing that really disturbs me is the use of Memory Charms. Anything that is messing with the mind of another person needs (IMO) to be *closely and carefully* regulated, if it is even used at all. I have a few reservations about Occlumency and Legilimency for these reasons, but these don't give me nearly as much trouble as Memory Charms, which I'd actually place on the "unforgiveable" end of the spectrum. Not only are children apparently not taught to use these things appropriately, there is lots of evidence that the use of Obliviate is seen as acceptable in Wizarding society. It's not entirely clear if it is used just on Muggles, or if it is also acceptable to use on other Wizarding folk . . . judging by Lockhart, I would guess that it is frowned upon. Which then leads us to another point: this seems to be a rather ugly biogtry against Muggles. Are they considered to be so far beneath witches and wizards, that they aren't entitled to the same human rights? In any case, I am very uncomfortable with the idea of memory modification and the fact that we've not seen what safeguards are in place to assure that it is used ethically and responsibly. This more than any other single issue in the books is what screams to me "MORALLY DEFICIENT" about the Wizarding World, and why I would *definitely* like to see the students receive some sort of formal guidance in the ethical use of magic. June: > Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? There seems to be the > minimum of restraint on the entire wizarding population - right > every underage wizard risks serious educational penalties if they > break the underage rules, but where does that leave the adult > wizard? Pretty much in the middle of a free for all. Now there may > well be considerable rules that are in place and that we are just > not aware of - and that's quite possible because there's an awful > lot of information that we don't have about the WW yet, and that > would hold up the story unbearably if JKR were to constantly go on a major narrative digression to sort this out for us. Wendy: Hmnnh . . . wand happy? Well, maybe there are rules in place of which we're not aware. There are times when we've seen magic used for very mundane purposes. On the other hand, though, we've also seen times when magic *wasn't* the default response. I'm thinking specifically of early CoS, when Arthur and Lucius come to blows in Flourish and Blotts. Why did they attack one another physically? Why not draw wands and duel? Is this a clue that maybe there *are* rules in place that govern this? Perhaps duelling is illegal (or regulated) in the WW. It seems like the students get up to a lot of this in the hallways at Hogwarts (sprouting leeks out of one anothers' ears and such), but in one situation where a magical fight might have seemed the obvious thing to do, the combantants chose to wrestle instead. It's really difficult to say. I do think there are inconsistencies here. But maybe no more so than in real life. After all, in the modern-day U.S., we have laws against killing other people, yet also have the Death Penalty. (There's no Death Penalty in Britain, though, is there)? So maybe some of these troubling things in the Potterverse are merely a reflection of some of the sorts of inconsistencies that we experience in the real world, as well. June: > All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the > Hogwarts curriculum. When it isn't appropriate to use spells, when > it is. Is there any other effect of spells apart from the obvious. > For instance, if you used magic to push some clouds away because > they were raining on you, what is the effect of those clouds raining somewhere else and is it a good effect? Wendy: I agree - I'd like to see this. This is also something that human society struggles with in the real world. Are we creating global warming with our use of flourocarbons? Does it or does it not matter if an endangered species becomes extinct? I think these things should be addressed - in both the Potterverse and the real world. Just not sure if this is one of the issues that JKR is likely to tackle. Maybe she will. Maybe she has very deliberatly made the use of Memory Charms appear *really* dodgy, and that this will be addressed later. I think that we're still going to see a lot more about house elf emancipation, and that inter-species relations are going to be a big theme in future books. Perhaps Rowling simply can't tackle all of it. Hmnh. This has gotten rather rambling, hasn't it? Or is it Rowling who has perhaps bitten off more than she can chew? And here's a rather random thought that occurred to me while writing this . . . maybe the Wizarding World itself doesn't understand the source of their magic, and this is one of the things being studied by the Department of Mysteries. I've thought that perhaps the Arch and Veil in the DoM are some sort of gateway to the Underworld; perhaps the Ministry is also investigating other things, and part of what Harry does in future books will be related to this research and discovery about the true nature of magical power. Poor kid. As if he doesn't already have enough to do trying to vanquish Voldemort, now he's got to help them sort out eternal mysteries as well. And this is a good transition to my final point about JKR's treatment of ethics in the WW: I am personally going to be *extremely* disappointed if Harry ends up willfully killing Voldemort at the end of the series. This seems to be what the Prophecy tells us will happen at the end (and it's what Harry now believes is his destiny), but as a pacifist myself, I will be *very* disappointed if the denouement of this series involves turning our young hero into a killer. That's the single issue I most want her to address. I have hope that she will . . . I'm still trying to figure out just what's up with that prophecy, and I think it's very likely that Rowling has worded it in such a way that the outcome will be something most people will have *never* been able to guess. But I'd like to try and guess it, and this is something I'd love to discuss. I've had a post about the Prophecy bubbling around in my brain for a while now; maybe this week I'll manage to write it all down and we can discuss that as well. :-) June: > So what does anyone think? Am I just a stuffy spoilsport moralist, > have I missed entirely on some fairly explicit treatment of > responsibility by JKR, or does anyone agree that there should be > ethics classes? Wendy: Oh, I'm sure you're a stuffy spoilsport moralist, but that's not all bad. I'm like that myself. At least that's what I've been told. ;-) In any case, I definitely agree that the students at Hogwarts need more moral guidance than they are currently receiving. I'm frankly not satisfied with either the formal education they've received NOR with much of the role modeling they've gotten so far - not even from Dumbledore. Heck, especially not from Dumbledore. He's done some of the dodgier things we've seen, actually (the point- giving at the PS/SS feast, for example). I think they could use some education in ethical use of magic, in addition to some plain old common sense about right and wrong in general. Great post, June! Thanks for bringing this up for discussion. :-) Wendy From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 02:37:19 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 02:37:19 -0000 Subject: Angry Snape / St. Hedwig/St. Severus In-Reply-To: <002001c39419$a08882a0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Neyer" wrote: > > St. Hedwig > > Today, Oct. 16, St. Hedwig is remembered in Catholic churches. She was born in Bavaria around the year 1174. She married a prince of Silesia and they had 7 children. She led a most devoted life, looking after the poor and the sick, and founding hospitals for them. When her husband died, she entered the monastery of Trebnitz and died there in 1243Quote taken from the MAGNIFICAT prayer magazine. > > I thought, given the prominence of Hedwig the owl, people might enjoy hearing about St. Hedwig. Mel adds, OT quickly: You missed Oct 15, The Feast day of St. Severus. Severus was born in Gaul. He worked as a missionary with St. Germanus of Auxerre and Lupus of Troyes and went to England with them in 429 to combat Pelagianism there. He also worked along the lower Moselle river area in Germany and was named Bishop of Treves in Gaul in 446, a position he held until his death. His feast day is October 15. From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Sun Oct 19 06:12:24 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 06:12:24 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" < june.diamanti at b...> wrote: > [snip] > However, there seems to be little taught to the budding wizards at > Hogwarts the very central idea that with great power comes great > reponsibility. > > Is it me or is everyone just wand happy? [snip] > > All the same, I would have liked to see some ethical training in the > Hogwarts curriculum. When it isn't appropriate to use spells, when > it is. Is there any other effect of spells apart from the obvious. > For instance, if you used magic to push some clouds away because > they were raining on you, what is the effect of those clouds raining > somewhere else and is it a good effect? > [snip] > > So what does anyone think? Am I just a stuffy spoilsport moralist, > have I missed entirely on some fairly explicit treatment of > responsibility by JKR, or does anyone agree that there should be > ethics classes? > > June Excellent post. You bring up some very good questions, and although I probably only have more questions, here's my thoughts... In order to determine whether or not there are ethical considerations at work in the Potterverse, we'd have to figure out what ethics really means. Having taken a course on the subject in high school and another one in college, I am no closer getting at a satisfying definition. Let's say just for the time being that ethics deals with the consequences of people's actions, and that the kind of responsibility you talk about is precisely about taking such consequences into account. Is the WW "wand-happy"? Yes, and no. On the wand hand, as your other respondents note, magic is presented in the Potterverse as equivalent to Muggle technology. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but the point of technology is to make our lives easier (whether it actually does or not is a debate for another time and place ;-) ). We certainly see a lot of that in the Potterverse, you can levitate things instead of carrying them, have household chores done for you, etc. The greater consequences (or the ethical results, as it were) of such acts are probably nimial, so they are not likely to elicit much ethical education. Now we know that magic is also used for other purposes. Let's take minor jinxes and hexes and such. If you hex your rival (say, Malfoy) and turn him into an oozing slug, or a bouncing ferret, or whatever, he can be sorted out by someone and returned to his original state, also by magical means. So beyond the humiliation there is not a vastly huge damage you have caused him. Of course there is SOME damage, so these types of magical uses are perhaps less ethical. >From Harry's POV (which is the only one we see), has he been taught it may be unethical to hex another person? I'd say yes. At the very least he knows there are consequences. Snape does not stand for silly wand-waving, McGonagall punishes people who mess around in her class, she is apalled when Fake!Moody turns Draco into a ferret, and, on the extreme, Umbridge regards most spells as too dangerous for school-aged children. Harry is also highly disturbed when he sees James and Sirius hexing Snape for no apparent reason. Recall that Draco and co. have been turned into things when Harry and co. have been defending themselves. They have yet to go and start a fight, and even the escalation from words to magic has yielded bad results (see slug-burping Ron). So, through Harry's eyes, the reader is made to realize hexing has consequences, in a very subtle JKR sort of way. Now, we know also that there are major curses that cannot be reversed, like the Unforgivables and the Memory charm. The former are illegal, and having been made to experience them himself, Harry is aware they are also unethical (note that law and ethics are not necessarily the same, also a debate for another time). He doesn't need to be told that they are bad karma, it's fairly obvious. The memory charm is where I think your post hits home the most, because although the kids have not been taught how to do it, they have seen it done quite a lot and in a context disturbingly lacking in admonitions of the "don't try this at home" sort. We have seen that minor "bad" wizards have used it to protect their own secrets and cover their own behinds: Lockhart, Crouch Sr. on Bertha Jorkins. We have not seen the DEs or LV use it, possibly because it's just easier to kill someone or put them under the Imperius Curse. But in any case, the trio have seen how unethical these instances were. OTOH, we have also seen law-abiding wizards use the memory charm to protect the Statute of Secrecy. Well, I could go into a rant about the things that are allowed to be done in RL with the pretext of "national security", and whether they are ethical or not, but let's not go there. I am merely pointing out that a huge ethical debate could go into that issue alone. There's also more general ethical issues, not directly involved with the use of magic, such as the giving or withholding of information that happens in OoP. Does Harry have the right to know *everything*? (I don't think he does know everything yet) If so, when and how should he be told? Did the Potters/ Longbottoms know about the prophecy? Did they have a right to know? Should DD have told them or others more or less than he did? If the Longbottoms were tortured for information, doesn't this mean that the more information one has, the more dangerous it is? Is it ethical to give such information, then? Should the house-elves be forced into freedom? Should Harry tell his friends about the contents of the prophecy? Are they more at risk knowing or not knowing? And should he, if he can, kill LV in order to save those *countless, faceless thousands* that DD talks about? Should Harry be allowed a say in DD's plan? Should DD have a plan at all, seeing as how it concerns other people whose free will may be compromised? Does saving lives potentially justify everything and anything? OK, now that I have gone on for too long, my conclusion is that yes, ethics education might do Hogwarts students some good, and perhaps they do take something to that effect in their 6th or 7th year. Yes, many uncomfrotable situations arise in the story within the WW. Yes, the WW is potentially a corrupt and ethically suspect culture. So is the real world, in spite of best efforts to the contrary. And yes, JKR has dealt already with ethical issues, albeit in a subtle and between-the-lines fashion. More power to her, kids don't like being sermoned (and neither do adults ;-) ). Gorda From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Sat Oct 18 23:34:17 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 09:34:17 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Something I'd like to see in the Books References: Message-ID: <000201c3960b$a51131c0$64984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 83103 "jwcpgh" wrote And I seem to recall a reference to love potions being illegal-maybe in GoF. Nox: I don't think they are illegal, but the use is discouraged or banned at Hogwarts. Nothing is said about anywhere else in the WW as far as I can remember. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 06:52:14 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 06:52:14 -0000 Subject: what kind of story is HP? (was:Re: Who will betray the order) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Pensieve" wrote: > Geoff: > > > I feel I must disagree with this view. Tolkien, in the Lord of the > > Rings, focusses on one character, Frodo, who has a burden placed > > on him to carry the ring. He has companions and friends - Sam, > > Merry, Pippin, Gimli, Aragorn, Legolas et al. They are around him, > > they support him, encourage him and help him. > Kathy: > But Sam did end up being a ring bearer - briefly - but ring bearer > still. > Geoff: Yes, I agree. Obviously, if one draws parallels between books, they are not totally congruent. The point I was making is that Frodo and Harry are the main focus of their respective stories. Since Harry is apparently on the receiving end of the prophecy, you can't hand that over to someone else in the same way that Sam took over when he thought that Frodo was dead. But, for example, Neville was still on his feet helping Harry at the end of the battle in the Ministry building in OOTP as was Sam during the final confrontation between Gollum and Frodo. Geoff From astrid at netspace.net.au Sun Oct 19 03:59:14 2003 From: astrid at netspace.net.au (Astrid Wootton) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:59:14 +1000 Subject: Kreature/Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83105 My first contribution: Apologies if it?s all been said before. Kreature may play a larger role in Book 6. Now that Sirius is dead he can return to Narcissa Black, Lucius Malfoy?s wife, and the closest living member of the Black family. He is no longer bound to keep silence on the OoP members and doings. Unless Dumbledore?s *persuasion* [OoP chapter 37 The Lost Prophecy UKHB page 733]has damaged Kreature?s memory, like Bertha Jorkins? was damaged by Crouch [GoF Chap 35, PB page 595] ? and Dumbledore might have done this purposely ? Kreature has very dangerous knowledge and may play a larger r?le in book 6. Who is most vulnerable to Kreature?s information? Assume for the moment that Snape, though unpleasant is in fact trustworthy. He has a dangerous job: the Mole in the Malfoy circle. <[OoP Chapter 26, Seen and Unforeseen. UKHB page521] DD seems to be exploring the nature of the relationship between VM and Harry, The comment sounds very much like a reference to that strange mystical poem of Shakespeare?s ?Let the bird of loudest lay? also known as ?The Phoenix and the Turtle. The concepts of essence and division are central to the poem as a whole. One verse goes: So they loved as love in twain, Had the essence but in one, Two distincts, division none: Number there in love was slain. Anybody interested? Astrid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 11:13:35 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 04:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) Message-ID: <20031019111335.26283.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83106 19Oct03 Laura wrote: " I don't think we've scratched the surface when it comes to understanding where Snape's anger comes from." Now Paula: Good point! I'm rereading OotP now, and just noticed what may turn out to be a significant hint. In the Bloomsbury First Edition, pp 480-81 , Algernon (actually Augustus) Rockwood is reported in the "Daily Prophet" as escaped from Azkaban. He went to prison for leaking Ministry Secrets to He Who Must Not Be Named. Rockwood is described as having greasy hair. Now, how many times does JKR remind us of Snape's greasy hair? Is there a possible family connection here? Is it possible that DD does indeed trust that Snape has reformed, but his trust can only go so far if Snape has a family member still in cahoots with LV? One of the big things that fuels Snape's anger is DD's refusal to let him teach DADA. Also, when Snape visits the Black house to meet with Harry, Sirius, a fellow OotP member, confronts him with the fact that he still doesn't believe that Snape has reformed, no matter what DD thinks. I'm with you Laura, we still haven't scratched the surface. Paula "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 01:50:47 2003 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:50:47 -0000 Subject: what kind of story is HP? (was:Re: Who will betray the order) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83107 Kathy: > But Sam did end up being a ring bearer - briefly - but ring bearer > still. Psychobirdgirl(me): Who do you think would be more like Sam, Neville or Ron? I think of Ron as Sam in the way that he is Harry's best friend and sticks by him loyally, but in the final battle I think it will end up being Neville who has to carry on in Harry's place for a while. psychobirdgirl From malibu_barbieblonde at hotmail.com Sun Oct 19 08:04:16 2003 From: malibu_barbieblonde at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 08:04:16 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83108 Sorry if this has been said before. I was just musing over the fact that we see a lot of the Bones's in OotP. I wonder if anyone else picked up on this, or not if you don't think it is a disscussable point. We first see Madame Bones at Harry's hearing, we are then introduced to Susan Bones. Both exert an interest in Harry's patronus. We later see Susan again, and we gain the knowlegde that her parents were killed by DEs. What I was wondering was why did JK feel the need to put in this information about the Bones in? Could they be involved with the Order?, or if they aren't, then wouldn't their absense be suspect? In other words, how are they significant? This is also appliable to the Diggorys. As Cedric was killed by DEs, wouldn't his parents join in with the defense against Voldy? I know that some people would say that as these peolpe were hurt (p or m), and just wanted to forget about the pain that he caused, but that just didn't sit right for me for the Bones, although it does make the Diggorys' absence seem more understandable. *~evil_sushi From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 11:16:31 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 04:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Elves' Magic and Possible Involvement with LV Message-ID: <20031019111631.84779.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83109 19October2003 Granny asked: " how could a house elf bind a full grown wizard?" Grey Wolf replied: "He would bind with his own magical powers, IMO. As you have pointed out, the powers of elves are very big - we have ample proof of it, like apparating inside Hogwarts. However, by their very nature they need to serve at a household and thus will bind themselves to a family to serve it for generations...Just like trolls are big and smelly, house elves work until given clothes, after which they leave " Granny again responds: Yes, this is good. But I'm still curious about the reason for Winky's extreme unhappiness and alcoholism. She's still in servitude at Hogwarts. I suspect that something is on her conscious. Grey Wolf: "...I see Dobby as the great Elf exception..." Granny again: No, I have to disagree. We saw in Book 4 (kitchen scene with Harry, Ron, Hermione) that Dobby's not proud of his "freedom". So, he's not such an exception; and don't forget he's secretly collecting Hermione's Elf clothing so that other house elves won't be freed. I'm still expecting a big revelation in 6 or 7. Could it be that house elves were instrumental in the Goblin Rebellions that we keeps reading about, but have no hard facts? Granny --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ALICAT999 at WESTNET.COM.AU Sun Oct 19 05:25:28 2003 From: ALICAT999 at WESTNET.COM.AU (alicia) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 05:25:28 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83110 Hi my names Alicia, I've been reading all your posts for months now and find them really interesting. But I have a query and was wondering if anyone could help me? I want to know if anyone knows what the 12 uses for dragons blood are? I tried searching the archives but came up with nothing! If you have any idea please let me know. From alison.williams at virgin.net Sun Oct 19 13:24:10 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (bluetad2001) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:24:10 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and "The Big Read" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > The Big Read is a BBC TV national poll to find the Nation's (UK) > favourite book. > > Telecast tonight has covered which books polled the top 21 books. > > Goblet of Fire is included in the top 21. Sadly, Prisoner of > Azkaban, Chamber of Secrets and Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone were > in the top 100 but did not make the final cut. > > Telephone and web lines open to vote on the final order at 10.30 pm > (UK standard time) > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/bigread/ > > This is hot off the presses - I saw it and raced to post! > > June The other three HP books came in officially at 22, 23 and 24. They were all in the top 21 in terms of votes but these three got bumped out and other books moved up because of the 'only one book per author' rule the Big Read powers-that-be decided on. Alison From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 14:09:10 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:09:10 -0000 Subject: Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote:--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: Her response #82348 to Talisman's #82031.> > Talisman, holding the torch for the Fellowship of the D.U.S.T. (Dumbledore Undercover Surveillance Team), responds: > Annemehr says,now(i.e. most recently): I remembered getting the distinct impression you questioned how much protection Harry was getting on Privet Drive when I read your post. Then when I wrote my reply . . . actually it had been the parenthetical remark that had done it. To requote you: 'We see that it is not simply Lily's death that gives Harry what little protection he gets (partial days six weeks a year?) from this "ancient magic."' Partial days, six weeks a year is not much protection! Talisman now: No it's not much time,is it? You know that I think Dumbledore is lying like a rug (D.O.L.L.A.R.: Dumbledore Obviously Lies Like A Rug) when he says that Harry has had to live with the beastly Dursley's all these years to protect him from LV. > Talisman Before: > [...]I don't think we see a lot of superfluous movement from DD. If you can point me to a pattern of contingency plans, I'd love to consider them. Annemehr now: Who fights a war without contingency plans? And how would Harry (and thus the reader) see any? Talisman Now: I understand your logic, *I* would certainly have contingency plans, but I'm not as preternaturally prescient as DD (N.O. D.I.P.P.: Not Omniscient, Dumbledore Is Preternaturally Prescient). As to our knowing about them, although JKR uses Harry's limited view to misdirect and control the flow of information, we can still see a good bit around him. Harry wouldn't have to recognize evidence of Plan "B" for a reader to do so. I do think Snape is often acting as Harry's bodyguard, so I suppose that would be an ongoing "back up" to whatever else is going on. But, for the most part, I see DD as more of a Kung-Fu Master type, minimum motion/maximum effect. Annemehr: The best I can think of is in the Hospital Wing at the end of GoF when DD sends Hagrid off to the Giants and Bill Weasley off to the MoM to look for allies (e.g. Tonks, who is too young to have been a part of the old Order). By the way, I'm sure there are motions toward the Goblins too. In a Daily Prophet article about Umbridge being named High Inquisitor, Madam Marchbanks is mentioned along with an insinuation that she'd been linked to "subversive goblin groups." Talisman now: I agree that DD is gathering his forces. At the end of GoF the Cold War has turned Hot again. However, I don't see this as a contingency plan. It's a phase of the Second War. DD is raising an army/establishing allies. It's important to him to include the Giants and Goblins because 1) LV will be trying to recruit them; and, more importantly, 2) DD's war is all about reintegration. > > Annemehr: > And why couldn't it be James who died for Harry if that was how the situation played out? Then you'd only need Harry in the presence of either one of his parents at all times, a practice Lily and James are likely to adhere to in any case, with their son so threatened. There is no problem in suggesting one of them [the parents] would need to die defending Harry, either, if it came down to that. > Why can't this be all DD did, rather than arranging the deaths of James and Lily in a certain way? > Talisman wrote: > My dear Annemehr. You know James was going to be killed anyway. His death was certain and therefore not the "sacrifice" that Lily's was. See e.g. SS 249, 298 and GoF 635. Both DD and LV repeat that > it is Lily's willing and unnecessary death that is key to the "old magic," in all its applications. Annemehr now: *Do* I know James was to be killed anyway? I've just discussed that a bit a few messages ago, in a reply to "KIM", and mentioned Sirius' words about Wormtail delivering "the last of the Potters" to Voldemort in PoA. *If* Sirius really knew something about it, that would imply James was targeted too. Your page numbers above don't correspond to my editions, though I do believe I know what the SS ones are. The GoF one I can't find. I do read where V talks of Lily's sacrifice but nothing of James. I do remember reading *somewhere* V saying "your mother needn't have died" and think this must be what you mean? That would be quite persuasive, but I can't find it now to verify my memory of it. Talisman now: DyslexiaReverso! I seem to have transposed a few numbers. SS 249 should be SS 294, GoF 635 should be 653. In SS, on page 294, Voldemort says, (from the back of Quirrell's head): "I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight . . .BUT your mother needn't have died." (my emphasis) The word "but" is used linguistically to show contrast, so, in this case: your father DID need to die. Which indicates that LV planned to kill James no matter what. I didn't find the KIM reply you mention, do you have a number? But, the idea that James would die anyway meshes well with the quote you point out, regarding delivering the "last of the Potters." Though a lot of wizarding families appear to be dying out (including LV`s, as he`s last of the Slytherin), it does seem that wiping out the Potter blood line is important to LV. SS 298 is the beginning of the exchange where Harry reiterates LV's words to DD: "Voldemort said he only killed my mother because she tried to stop him from killing me." DD responds "Your mother died to save you." i.e., She didn't die fighting per se, or fighting for her own life, she died specifically "to save Harry." At Gof 653 Voldemort refers to the effect of "the foolish woman's sacrifice." James died trying to protect his family, so why wouldn't LV speak in terms of parental sacrifice, instead of just Lily's? It seems to me that Lily's death is separated out and considered to be of a special, more specifically sacrificial nature. As to the effect of the sacrifice, versus the rune charm, LV is just echoing what Harry told TR in CoS, which is only what DD told Harry in SS. (In case I'm assuming agreement on this point, I'll add that because TR/MemoryVort knew of LV's experiences with Harry, it follows that LV shared TR/MemoryVort's knowledge, as well.) Talisman then: > Moreover, DD's shield charm requires the home of a family member who shares the blood of the sacrificed one. James has no other living blood relatives, so even if his death could qualify for a sacrifice (which I deny, no offense to James) there would be no safe home created. Annemehr now: If James was *not* going to be killed anyway, and he had sacrificed himself as Lily did, he could at least have saved Harry that night, and Harry's further protection would have had to be arranged differently. Talisman now: According to DD, the charm that uses the blood link between sacrificed one/home owner/shield beneficiary is "the strongest shield" he could give Harry. (OoP 836). Either DD is lying, or there is no equivalent Plan B. I actually think that the blood shield 1) is important for undisclosed reasons 2) will play a role before the end of the series, BUT 3) I also think DD has lied about its import so far, and 4) I especially don't think it's "protection" explains/justifies the 10+ years of abuse to which DD consigned Harry. Watch out Annemehr, in saying that you think DD had other options to keep Harry safe, you are doing a pretty good job of nailing DD as a liar, too. Talisman then: > 1)DD invoked the runic charm before the attack--that's why its effect was seen as a consequence to the attack. If the charm is to work: > 2) Lily has to die, there is no other candidate; > 3) Lily can't die fighting LV in any other context than willingly > throwing herself in front of Harry; > 4) Harry can't be allowed to be attacked if Lily isn't in front of > him; > 5) If you've come this far, you can't believe DD's going to leave it > all to chance. Annemehr now: 1)DD or Lily did it, but they were working together I think. Talisman now: Oh, yes. I think it would have been important to DD that Lily understand exactly what was needed. Annemehr wrote: 2 through 4)I can see that Lily may have been told to stay with Harry at all times while they were in hiding, especially if it was she who did the rune charm. Working back, listies *had* wondered before why Lily never used her wand. If she had been part of the planning all along, in case of the worst, DD may have told her that her wand would be useless to the rune charm, that she should defend Harry without one. Talisman now: Or, both DD and Lily knew that there would be no way to stop LV from killing Lily, and the only way to stop him from killing Harry would be to activate the rune charm through her sacrificial death. By playing enough of Harry's memory to make us think Lily didn't even try to use her wand, JKR may simply be underscoring the "knowing" and purely sacrificial nature of Lily's death. Annemehr wrote Listies have also considered that Harry may be more powerful without *his* wand, so why not Lily? Maybe this has something to do with "ancient magic" and the wandless magic Harry (as any other wizard) does when pushed to extremes. Talisman now: Certainly the raw power derived from Lily's sacrifice didn't require a wand. Whether harnessing that power required one, is another question. The initial performance of the rune charm probably did involve a wand, just as charms in Flitwick's classes do, but at this point we don't have that information. Nonetheless, I think wandless magic will be very important before the end of the book. I'll add a post to that effect to the "Wandless Magic" thread that's been around recently. (This post is long enough.) Annemehr wrote: 5)Do you mean that DD has arranged all this *in case* the Fidelius Charm fails? Or do you mean that he arranged for this very thing to happen, implying that he ensured the Fidelius Charm *would* fail? Talisman now: Weeeell, if Fidelius Charm's are so great, why did Harry have to go live with the nasty abusive Dursley's? In my restaurant you can have your choice of menu options, either: 1) Fidelius Charm's aren't as wonderful as the professorial gang in PoA thinks, and DD knew failure was an eventuality (though I still think he would have tweaked things so that the breach occurred when everyone was in place for the rune charm scenerio.) Therefore, DD's plan = no Fidelius Charm's going to fool LV, the only way to protect Harry is this rune charm (with all the attendant advantages of #2), so I'll get that all set up. And, we better have the failure happen in close proximity to LV's threat of attack, so that Lily's still hovering over Harry, (she can't stay in his room for years). We've got Wormtail here, just dying to pass information. Now all I have to do is help Sirius have a "bright idea." Or 2) Fidelius Charm's are air-tight, but DD just wants to do the Dursley thing because he :1) needs to groom a certain mentality in his little "chosen one," 2) has future plans for the blood-pact business, 3) has future plans for the Dursely`s. The rest follows #1. > > Annemehr wrote: > [Aside: If DD *is* choreographing things, he could have brought Pettigrew to Voldemort's attention through his spy, Snape, and I've no doubt he could have planted the "Pettigrew as unlikely secret- > keeper" seed with Sirius, too -- but that's not any proof.] > > Talisman then: > Pettigrew had been LV's spy for over a year. (PoA 374) The Godric's Hollow attack occurred "barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed [on Sirius]," (PoA 205), therefore likely only days > after the "switch" to Pettigrew. Pettigrew ran straight to his master. Annemehr now: Are you agreeing with me then? The prophecy was given when Lily was pregnant (DD says, "shortly before [Harry's] birth" in ch.37 of OoP). As the Godric's Hollow attack happened when Harry was 15 months old, that does give DD some time to make plans, put V on to Pettigrew, and have Pettigrew establish himself as a spy for "over a year" before that Halloween. I'm not saying that's what I believe, just that it's possible. Talisman now: All that I am saying is that I am sure DD knew Wormtail was a spy, long before the switch. That you can see how this could be arranged, is encouraging. But, if there is any suggestion in your theory that Wormtail was DD's mole, I don't accept that. Pawn yes, mole no. > Annemehr wrote: > Now, if this "protection at Privet Drive" business was so wonderful, you could argue that DD hoped to be able to deploy it, but as far as we can tell from OoP, Harry needs to be in the house to take advantage of it. You yourself, in your second paragraph above, imply this "protection" is not all it's claimed to be. the Privet Drive protection does seem to have deterred Voldemort, however potent it actually is, so it's certainly served a purpose, I suppose. As I wrote before: [Voldemort] certainly seems to know about the protection (but how?) and believe in it, but he seems to think it applies to the entire neighborhood; or else he's just scared of DD's guards and is embarrassed to admit it. Why wouldn't he try an alleyway attack as Delores Umbridge did? Did Dumbledore manage to feed him some (mis) information somehow? > > Talisman replied: > Supposedly LV's been too weak to attack until his re-bodification in GoF [and after the disastrous graveyard duel he wants to know the rest of the prophecy before he tries again]. Annemehr: Yes, but rather than the elaborate setup with the TWT, why not wait, what, a week or so, and attack Harry in Little Whinging? V seems to believe Harry *is* too well protected there, that he does need to get Harry to win the TWT (no small feat!) instead. I still wonder how V got that information and how much of it is correct. Talisman now: Well, for one thing, LV didn't have a week or so to wait or attack. Let's back up. Readers have long been disgruntled with the seemingly over-elaborate plan to get at Harry via the TWT. The best explanation I've heard (and I believe JKR endorses) is the one that center's on LV desire to avoid suspicion (he doesn`t want to have to fight until he`s up to sufficient power). He needs Harry at the Little Hangleton Gravesite so that all the ingredients are, er, handy, and then he wants to have Harry turn up dead in a way that won't make anyone think LV was involved. It took post-PoA Wormtail some amount of time to make his way from Hogwarts to Albania (picking up Bertha along the way); then, after they debriefed Bertha, Wormtail had to help LV conjer up his temporary "ugly baby" body, and then they had to make their way back to England. I don't know how they traveled, but Wormtail had time to mull over plans along the way (GoF 10) so apparently they didn't apparate; and LV is obviously all pooped-out and begging for a Nagini shake by the time they arrive in Little Hangleton. LV killed Frank Bryce the same night he arrived in Little Hangleton. (GoF 7) From the evidence that we have, the Riddle House is the first place LV stopped in England. Harry dreamt about Bryce's murder while it was happening. (GoF 16) The Weasleys`s invitation arrived the next morning (GoF reading pages 16-30, to ensure no extra days sneak in ), and he left for the burrow the next day (a Sunday) (GoF reading 30-36). Between the part of the summer consumed by the master/servant reunion and the trip back, coupled with the fact that Harry left the Dursleys's a day later, if LV wanted to attack while Harry was strolling around Little Whinging he 1) had about one day to get there and do it 2) would have to rely on Wormtail to manage a "disappearance" that wouldn't send DD's guards into a flurry (because, of course, LV doesn't understand that DD wants him to use Harry's blood). Therefore, I don't see any basis for assuming that the blood shield played a role in keeping LV away from Little Whinging through the end of GoF. After the disaster in the Graveyard (just imagine Lord "I am now going to prove my power by killing him" Voldemort facing the DE's after Harry disappears with the portkey) LV wants to hear the prophecy before coming after Harry again, so that there won't be any more exhibitions of failure to erode his command over the DE's. (As an aside: We know DD knew LV would come after the orb bait, free will or not, based on the circumstances and the personality involved, it WAS predictable.) > Annemehr wrote: > I'm not sure this applies to anything else, but the spell is very fortunately constructed for Voldemort. Three people are required -- Father, Servant, and Enemy. Pick a servant, any servant: no problem. > > Talisman then: > Can't agree with that. Vapormort was rather short on servants as he languished in Albania. Especially ones DD would send him because they have a blood debt to Harry Potter. Then there's Wormtail's >lovely proclivity for amputation. Annemehr now: >From V's point of view, as long as he had *any* servant who could take him to Little Hangleton, brew the potion, etc., then he had one potion ingredient to hand. It's not a very specific ingredient. Talisman now: I don't think LV did have much choice. 1)LV was busy having his "darkest hour" in Albania (GoF 654) and found it *inordinately* lucky that Wormtail showed up, "I could not hope that I would be sent another wizard to possess" (654). LV didn't find out about Crouch, Jr.'s availability until Wormtail brought him Bertha Jorkins. And, he also needed Wormtail ex machina to get to Crouch Jr. I think it is VERY telling that LV didn't use the back of Quirrell's head to contact any of the DE's when he was running around the WW all of 1991; ditto ugly baby LV doesn't ask Wormtail to get in touch with any of the DE's when he gets back to town in GoF. No indeed, LV doesn't want to see the rest of the DE's until he has his body back and his wand in hand. Notwithstanding all the recriminations for not coming to look for him, it seems clear that there aren't many DE's to whom LV is willing to expose himself while in a vulnerable condition. While the potion itself may have been indifferent as to whose flesh it got, LV has other serious considerations that sharply curtail the potential servant-ingredient list. Say, down to one. DD is making this all come together, and for DD's purposes also, Wormtail was the only choice. > Annemehr wrote: > Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy ingredient. > > Talisman replied: > Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too. (GoF 8-9; 656) But LV (and DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it took his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a plan which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated. Annemehr now: Yes, V *wanted* to use Harry. Really, really, really badly. V believes he has certain advantages by using him. But, he didn't *need* him. Talisman now: Sure, he could have used other blood and just put up with having his body burnt like Quirrell's if Harry got him in another SS grip. But there was no way he'd do that as long as he had ANY means of getting at Harry. He doens't just want a body, he wants a body that's going to defeated his fated adversary. And for that, he *needs* Harry's blood. Free will or not, it was eminently predictable that LV would go for Harry's blood. > > Annemehr wrote: > But then he needs one very particular person: his father. Imagine if a bit of soft tissue had been required ("EAR of the Father?" Voldemort screeched. "How am I supposed to get EAR of the Father > NOW?") Shades of William "Bootstraps" Turner, there. > > Talisman replied in part: > He had been planning his LV role for some years by that time, and may already have known he'd never need more than Daddy's bones. Otherwise he would have canned something. Annemehr now: Talisman, that was supposed to be funny. That potion was a piece of ancient magic and included a piece of his father. I just thought it was lucky for V that it was a piece that lasts. -- You actually think he would have canned something? :-P Talisman now: Of course it WAS funny. That doesn't mean you weren't considering the "what if" part. The canning part is supposed to be funny, too. My sense of humor must be getting awfully dry. Must be all the DUST in here. But that doesn't mean I'd put a little cold-packing past him. (What DOES Snape have in all those jars?) > Then Talisman wrote: > (He had already insured that LV got his limb-chopping servant back, and soon fixed it so he got Harry's (gleam) blood, as well.) > > Annemehr replied: > See, I can see the possibility here. but I don't yet see that DD *alone* chose and brought about this one *particular* course of events. Wouldn't sending Harry to the graveyard be too much of a risk? How did he not nearly lose him right there? (Talisman now: Let me interject that DD is not "alone," he has plenty of helpers. Also, although DD instigates actions, he usually then co-opts the predictable reactions of others to reach his ends. Therefore, he doesn't just sit down and choose a "particular" course of action. He works with what is there.) > > Talisman replied to that: > I think there was as much protection at the graveyard as DD has had in place any of the times he has pitted Harry against LV. > > 1) I don't think LV is referring to Snape as the one who "has left me forever," I do think it highly likely that Snape is there, under a hood; Annemehr: As to that, I don't know. What protection could Snape have been? Could Snape have assured the wands would connect? Harry was nearly AKed! Talisman now: If the wands hadn't connected, Snape could have done exactly what DD did in the OoP Atrium. Remember LV pointed his wand at Harry and shouted "Avada Kedavra" there, too. It seems obvious from both the Graveyard and the Atrium incidents that 1) AK is by no means instantaneous, 2) calling it an "unblockable" curse is rather an overstatement, 3) it takes enough time for the green beam of light to travel to its target to allow enchanted statues to throw themselves in the path. So, for one thing, there were plenty of enchant-able gravestones around in GoF. In fact, there was one Harry had just stepped out from that could have popped up if the beam got past the half-way mark. Obviously Snape [or any other helper] isn't going to blow his cover if he doesn't need to. Talisman then: > 2) No one, not even DD, has said that _Priori Incantatum_ was responsible for : > a) H and LV rising into the air and gliding over to a place free of graves (GoF 663); Annemehr: Yes, that always did seem weird. Talisman then: > b) Phoenix song that gives H hope and strength; Annemehr: No, that I think *is* the wand connection. I think Priori Incantatum is only one result of the wand connection, and this is another. Talisman now: There is no canon for that, and some against it (see Phoenix feathers riff, below). The assumption is rather weak and leaves the source of the song--at best--ambiguous. Talisman then: > c) the "thousand" beam dome-web/light-cage that separates H/LV from the DE's (663-64); Annemehr: All right, that is debatable. It's not as odd as floating away from the graves, though. Talisman now: I think it's very debatable and quite odd. Priori Incantatum has to do with brother wands not wanting to fight each other, it has nothing to do with protecting you from unrelated wands or even a punch in the nose from a third party. Talisman then: > d) the voice, " almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear" that advises H (664); Annemehr: It's not a voice. It's the phoenix song, which was the sound he connected to DD and it was *almost* as though a friend was speaking in his ear. Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart, and strikes fear into the evil. And when Harry answered, he answered the *music.* Talisman now: That's quite poetic, but Harry didn't answer, he followed advice. He responded to something that sounds a lot like telepathy to me. A song that gives hope is one thing, an internal voice that sounds like Dumbledore and gives good, specific advice is another. Fawkes didn't sing any advice to Harry in CoS--in fact, anything Fawkes tried to communicate to Harry he did by physical action (dropping things on his head, holding out his tail, etc.)so the solid inference is that his feather didn't sing advice, either. Talisman then: > e) and, it's one thing to see a victim regurgitated, but what was with all the advice from the shadow/echos? Lily knew about the portkey? James saying "when" to go? > > When Sirius asks, and DD explains the "effect," he only speaks of the connection/spell regurgitation (GoF 697). If you think everything is explained by the effect, you are choosing to assume much more that I would, and ignoring the other evidence. Annemehr now: The Priori Incantatem effect is the important thing to DD. And, he was speaking in general about the effect of forcing brother wands to duel. Presumably, the effect would differ somewhat if brother Unicorn-hair wands connected. Talisman now: There is no canon at all as to whether different cores give different results. But, as above, the lack of acknowledgement by DD, the logic of Priori Incantatum, and comparison to CoS are better evidence for the proposition that Harry was protected by more than Phoenix feathers. Also, just as JKR instructed us in the use of portkeys at the beginning of GoF, she took care to introduce us to the "reverse spell," _Prior Incantato_at the TWT. I do not think the early use of the _Prior Incantato_ spell was gratuitous. Notwithstanding the distinction between intentionally working the spell on another wand or the automatic effect between brother wands, as far as I am concerned, Priori Incantatum--also referred to as the *Reverse SPELL Effect*-- is just that, i.e. if brother wands are forced to duel, you automatically get the EFFECT of the REVERSE SPELL. Not the effect of the spell plus amazing added bonus features. That's why JKR 1) gives us the intro to the spell, 2) gives us the subtitle "reverse spell effect." This allows us to see that more was going on in the graveyard. Annemehr: How do the "echoes" know what's going on? Presumably like photos or paintings do, although it *is* hard to see how they would recognize a portkey. Unless they were always in the wand and heard V talking about it. :-P Talisman now: There is a fair amount of :-P in the scene, but, I think, plenty of evidence of protections. You also have to join the Graveyard Scene to the rest of the book. If you take all the evidence in GoF that DD planned for the Graveyard Scene and was totally on to Fake!Moody, it negates the possibility that he didn't have protections in place. > Annemehr wrote: > One last question. In GoF, ch. 36, when Harry is telling everything that happened in the graveyard to DD and Sirius, we read : "The wands connected?" [Sirius] said, looking from Harry to Dumbledore. "Why?" > Harry looked up at Dumbledore again, on whose face there was an arrested look. "*Priori incantatem,*" he muttered. > > Dumbledore appears to have forgotten all about priori incantatem until that moment Talisman replied: > 1) I don't think "arrested" means surprised. Recall that we've just seen DD recover from his momentary "gleam." My dictionaries suggest such synonyms as "checked" or "restrained movement." [...] I think an arrested face is a restrained face, a face where expression has been checked or controlled. It is a poker face. > > DD shoots H a knowing look and when Sirius asks if Priori Incantatum means the "reverse spell effect," DD says "Exactly." He doesn't say "Great Merlin's Beard, that must be it!" Annemehr now: A poker face is a blank face. To me, the arrested look was when DD stopped to think. It's as if he'd just thought of a new implication of something and went within himself to consider it. He *muttered* the words "Priori incantatem" as if he'd just remembered about it, and was muttering to himself. And after all, one thing he never could have planned on is V and Harry shooting spells right at each other's wands so that the beams could connect. > Talisman now: You say blank, I say restrained, it really amounts to the same thing. It's your interpretation as to why the face was blank that's at issue between us. Everyone is always muttering--spells, commentaries, and other non-surprised statements-- in HP, so I wouldn't go too far with that. And, DD then shoots "an invisible beam of understanding" to Harry, not a look of curiosity or wonder. And, says "exactly," etc. I may not think DD was all that surprised, but I'm willing to accept that DD wasn't counting on Priori Incantatum for Harry's protection. He had a lot of other help in place. > > Annemehr wrote: > Anyway, I believe DD is up to something. I know we've been told only a fraction of the truth. But, I'll need a lot of persuading if I'm going to believe he's orchestrated *everything* since he heard that danged prophecy! > > Talisman replied: > My dear, Harry (and Neville) were added to the plan when the first prophecy came out. The plan is much older than that. Annemehr ::blinks:: It is? You know that? Huh? ::looks blank:: I always thought DD built that plan around "the one" in the prophecy... ...and I *still* don't know what the danged plan *is*! Talsiman now: Well I certainly think I see evidence to support my belief that DD was already planning, at least as far back as 1944. I'm sure that wasn't the very beginning, either. Annemehr tearing out hair (it rhymes!) Talisman, leaving you with the thought that hair pulling is a common reaction to her posts. Perhaps marketing a line of Wild Flying Boar wigs would prove a lucrative venture. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 12:54:03 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 12:54:03 -0000 Subject: Student Names mentioned in Sorting Ceremony No.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gartzen88" wrote: Gartzen: > Another suspicious thing in the sorting is that Goyle is not > mentioned... He should have been between Justin and Hermione but it > seems like either he got sorted in 90/91 and did a year again, or > else here is a unmentioned tim egap... Or maybe this is just a flint... > > I belive that he did a year twice. And my "proof" for that are the > 41/42 names on the school list from "Harry Potter and Me". Geoff: Crabbe isn't mentioned either. But, come on folks, let's be reasonable. If I count correctly, there are 22 names mentioned in the Sorting Hat piece. There are things going on, people applauding, Harry worrying in between. Haven't you ever been in a situation where a list is being dealt with and your attention wanders for a moment and you miss a name or an item? From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 13:01:31 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:01:31 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: evil_sushi2003: > Sorry if this has been said before. > > I was just musing over the fact that we see a lot of the Bones's in > OotP. > > I wonder if anyone else picked up on this, or not if you don't think > it is a disscussable point. > > We first see Madame Bones at Harry's hearing, we are then introduced > to Susan Bones. Geoff: Just to be pedantic, we are actually introduced to Susan Bones in PS when she is the second named person to be sorted and goes into Hufflepuff. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 13:21:19 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:21:19 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy" wrote: > > Wendy: > > I can think of very few instances where *any* ethical guidance was > given at all. The Unforgiveable curses would be one example - the > kids are taught not to do them. Although I'm not sure a satisfactory > answer as to "why" was ever given. While I can personally, as an > adult, come up with some good reasons for not using these curses, > I'm not sure that all 14 year-olds couldn't use a lesson on this > sort of thing. And telling students, "If you do this, you'll get > sent to Azkaban," doesn't count. Another is the fact that > Hermione is cautioned against mis-use of the Time-Turner, but again > this seemed to me to be more of a "you could really screw things up > if you're not careful" warning, rather than a concern of a purely > ethical sort. > > Okay, having said that, I do see *some* indication that there is a > sense of ethics in the WW, judging by Sirius' words in GoF: > > (UK hardcover, p 457) "Crouch fought violence with violence, and > authorised the use of the Unforgiveable Curses against suspects. I > would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark Side. > He had his supporters, mind you - plenty of people thought he was > going about things the right way, and there were a lot of witches > and wizards clamouring for him to take over as Minister for Magic." > > And later, Sirius also praises Moody for his actions during the war: > > (p 462) "I'll say this for Moody, though, he never killed anyone if > he could help it. Always brought people in alive where possible. He > was tough, but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters." > > So there *is* a concept of ethics in the Wizarding World, we just > haven't seen much of it taught at Hogwarts. Perhaps JKR is assuming > that Hogwarts students bring with them some sort of ethical > framework equivalent to what people in the real world would have, > and she dosn't plan to specifically address this. > Geoff: I wonder how often you come across specific ethical and moral guidance in any book? Quite often, in a longish book, anything in this direction is often cover or even subliminal. If you read LOTR many times, as I have, you sense that there is a moral and ethical framework - that there are basics which are in place and do not shift but which are not put over in a long moralising section. Tolkien wrote from a Christian perspective and you feel that in his "good" characters (who may not be angels remember) they are working to basic truths (as they appear to them within Middle-Earth). When I taught, I had a couple of basic "bottom lines" for myself for dealing with pupils which I attempted to follow all my teaching career. I didn't have a large sheet of paper on the wall saying "Sir's Rules" but I operated them day by day. I am still in contact with a number of ex-students from years past and a number of them have commented on their feeling that I was trying to show them the best way forward and to treat them as members of the human race and that they are grateful that they gained something from that. Going back to my initial point, if JKR had shown teachers spending time in the classroom teaching ethics etc., it would have slowed up the pace of the book; a number of readers would have felt that they were being lectured. Instead you gain a subconscious insight into the structure of what goes on, rather as much of our own personal development will have taken place without formal instruction by following examples - close family and role models whom, for some reason, we trust and feel comfortable with and, as a result, begin to model ourselves on. Perhaps things go wrong in the wizarding world as in the real world when we look at the wrong role models or lack folk in whom we can place a complete trust. Geoff From grahadh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 13:30:54 2003 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:30:54 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" < malibu_barbieblonde at h...> wrote: > Sorry if this has been said before. > > I was just musing over the fact that we see a lot of the Bones's in > OotP. > > > We first see Madame Bones at Harry's hearing, we are then introduced > to Susan Bones. Both exert an interest in Harry's patronus. > We later see Susan again, and we gain the knowlegde that her parents > were killed by DEs. > > What I was wondering was why did JK feel the need to put in this > information about the Bones in? Could they be involved with the > Order?, or if they aren't, then wouldn't their absense be suspect? > D.G.: IMO I don't think that the surviving members of the Bones family are in the new OoP. They are mentioned quite a bit in Book 5, so IMO if they had been in the Order JKR would have mentioned it. They _are_ seen as sort of non-OoP allies though. On p 123 (US version) Tonks says "Amelia bones is okay Harry. She's fair, she'll hear you out" This is an indication that Madame Bones is well respected and open minded. (IMO Neville's Gran would also fall into this catagory. (I personally don't buy the Neville's gran is evil theories, I think she's just formitiable:0) ) p219 US version Neville says "My gran says that's rubbish. She says it's the Daily Prophrt that's going downhill, not Dumbledore. She's cancelled our subscription. We believe Harry. . . . My gran's always said You-Know-Who would come back one day. She says if Dumbledore says he's back, he's back") > This is also appliable to the Diggorys. As Cedric was killed by DEs, > wouldn't his parents join in with the defense against Voldy? D.G.: I don't see the absence of the Bones or the Diggorys from the OoP as suspicious at all. At the beginning of the book the OoP was a secret organization, which if the ministry found out about would cost many of the members at least their jobs. So I think that the membership was kept relatively exclusive in order to ensure the members' safety. Plus since it was risky to join, it is understandable that members would only recruit new members who they knew would be willing to take the risk. And while they saw the Bones as sympethizers, they may not have been sure the Bones' were willing to take that risk. Like I said, this does not mean that there were not like minded, they just didn't belong to the Order. Just as the WW is not divided into DE and good people, nor is it divided into OoP members and people who beileved the Daily Prophet (though it may have seemed that way). -D.G. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 19 15:02:20 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 19 Oct 2003 15:02:20 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1066575740.21.20412.m16@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83117 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, October 19, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Oct 19 15:48:16 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 15:48:16 -0000 Subject: House Elves' Magic and Possible Involvement with LV In-Reply-To: <20031019111631.84779.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83118 > Granny again responds: > > Yes, this is good. But I'm still curious about the reason for > Winky's extreme unhappiness and alcoholism. She's still in servitude > at Hogwarts. I suspect that something is on her conscious. There have been a few theories about what went on in the Crouch household. Unfortunately, when they came around I wasn't paying that much attention to the list, so I am fuzzy on the details, but there was one in particular about Winky taking the role of mother and wife which explained quite neatly all of the problems. I don't go that far, though. Winky is crushed because she's been thrown away from her family. I don't see consciense problems, more like deep worrying. Notice that she constantly wonders what will happen to Crouch Sr. now that she's not there to take care of him. Of course, she might feel that she is in some way responsible for having been socked, but many people that go through similar experiences tend to think "maybe it was my fault" even if it wasn't (for the record, I think it *was* her fault, since it was she that bullied Sr. into allowing Jr. to go to the Quidditch Final in the first place and then not doing her job properly - she must have known that a Quidditch match would involve sitting somewhere high - but I think that the socking was excessive and dangerous). At any rate, IMO, Winky's alcoholism comes from a depression caused when she was cut away from her family, the family she was bound to serve and that had come to love and certainly felt deeply about. > Grey Wolf: > > "...I see Dobby as the great Elf exception..." > > Granny again: > > No, I have to disagree. We saw in Book 4 (kitchen scene with Harry, > Ron, Hermione) that Dobby's not proud of his "freedom". I disagree. Dobby is very proud of his freedom, and he demonstrates it clearly by keeping his clothes perfectly clean and buying more with his pay. He asks not to be taken into Hermione's wild Elf Freedom scheme for what seems to me a good reason: nothing good will come out of it. He knows his fellow elves much better than Hermione does, for starters, and knows they won't be pleased by her ideas (which at that point are absolutely useless for the elves, particularly for some as well treated as the Hogwart elves). Dobby still has to work with them, and not everyone is cut out to be a politician. If, for example, Dobby had had trouble being accepted by the other elves for being free, he might not want to reopen the battle, and I understand that choice perfectly - I don't drink or smoke, but I don't make an issue when my peers do and viceversa, and I certainly won't join the side of the first campaigner that comes by claiming that everyone must stop smoking and drinking for their own good. Hermione is doing precisly that, in the kitchen scene, with her half-cooked ideas. > So, he's not such an exception; Yes he is. So far, he's the only elf we know of that has voluntarily traitioned his family, the only one that has readily accepted clothing and the only one that has wanted to work for money and wanted days free. That makes him the great exception, in my opinion. > and don't forget he's secretly collecting Hermione's Elf clothing so > that other house elves won't be freed. False. He is *not* collecting them in secret, in so far anything an elf does is in secret. The other elves were offended at Hermione's plot (I would've, too - I think that what Hermione did was grossly unethical and she's lost quite a bit of standing in my eyes because of it) and *stopped* cleaning Griffindor Tower. Dobby took on the entire job and since those hats and other clothings were there to be picked up by the elves cleaning the room, Dobby picked them up. He didn't pick them up so that the other elves weren't freed - the other elves had already seen them and decided against being free. Dobby was just picking them up because they were a (bad intentioned) present. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Oct 19 16:13:03 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:13:03 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the "Big Read" - Part 2 (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83119 I hastily posted something about this last night - then the teenager in my life took control of the computer before I could add the following. To recap - the BBC in the UK have an ongoing poll and series of TV programmes called "The Big Read". Earlier this year, people were asked to submit their favourite books and a top hundred list was compiled. For the interest of this list, JKR books which made it to the top 100 were: Philosophers Stone/Sorcerers Stone Chamber of Secrets Prisoner of Azkaban Goblet of Fire On last night's broadcast, the top 21 books were announced with a call for viewers to vote their favourite of all time. Over the next few weeks well known people will advocate their choices in a series of programmes. Goblet of Fire was the book which made it into the top 21. Other fantasy books which made the cut were LOTR (surprise, surprise) and the His Dark Materials trilogy. The rest were a fair old mix - with some that some will like and others that are surprising. The reason behind this post is to talk a little about the programme. It was largely a talking heads broadcast with various usual suspects from british literati. Among these was Andrew Davies who is well known as a dramatist from classical literary sources- for example, he was behind the adaptation of Pride and Prejudice made a few years ago and very successful. Andrew was utterly scathing in his evaluation of JKR. He expressed dismay at any of her books being included in such a poll and made the statement that she could not write at all and that all her characters were stock - nothing more. Various others joined in in a sneering and patronising way too. Now, I have a number of quibbles about JKR's writing but I must say I found this attack (for that is the way I saw it) quite unnecessary. The attitude to the other fantasy novels included was much as one would expect. Unfortunately, I was unable to get to a computer after the programme in order to vent my spleen. So I have just done it on the BBC website and I attach my post below. "Was anyone else downright insulted by Andrew Davies attitude on last nights television programme? While not for a moment implying that anyone should be restrained from their opinions, I felt he went way too far in his comments about J K Rowlings writing. Sure, I have a number of quibbles about her style (for example, I'm not too fond of her use of adverbs in dialogue attribution), but for him to say she cannot write at all, was just way too much. The programme was about "reading" as opposed to highbrow literary punditry and his snobbish remarks were emotive and unnecessary. I felt this was just the usual stance that the so-called literary community tends to take about the fantasy genre as a whole and not just Rowling's work. Essentially, the Potter books deserve to be on the list because they precisely fit the criteria for a good read - they are entertaining stories. Perhaps not earth shatteringly profound, but so what? I'm on the side of stories. Davies also accused her of populating the books with "stock" characters. What on earth did that mean? Stereotypical? Well perhaps, though I believe that as the main point of view character, Harry, grows up we are being given a gradual shift to more complex motivation as he himself journeys into maturity. I can only assume that to certain critics, a book is not worthy of notice unless it is boring and incomprehensible. Additionally, the fantasy genre should not be sneered at: it houses some of the greatest works ever written. Dante and Milton both live there. Dickens rented occasional space in the fantasy genre as did many others. Personally, I would rather read about the doings of young Potter and his friends, than about some discontended middle class housewife who spends an entire novel debating whether to have an extra-marital affair. And finally - no I didn't vote for the Goblet of Fire as my all time favourite!"* This was the end of my post. I just thought you might like to see it, and here what provoked it. I do feel strongly that the series is about what ordinary people enjoy reading and should not be about being told what to read. I would imagine that if the panel had cast THEIR votes it would have ended up being like one of those tiresome highbrow newspaper book of the year lists which feature pseudish stuff that no one has every heard of. June (I voted for LOTR;-) - Go fantasy genre!) From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 16:56:20 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:56:20 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the "Big Read" - Part 2 (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: Among these was Andrew Davies > who is well known as a dramatist from classical literary sources- > for example, he was behind the adaptation of Pride and Prejudice > made a few years ago and very successful. Andrew was utterly > scathing in his evaluation of JKR. that all her characters were stock - > nothing more. > > "Was anyone else downright insulted by Andrew Davies attitude on > last nights television programme? While not for a moment implying > that anyone should be restrained from their opinions, I felt he went > way too far in his comments about J K Rowlings writing. > The programme was about "reading" as opposed to highbrow literary > punditry and his snobbish remarks were emotive and unnecessary. I > felt this was just the usual stance that the so-called literary > community tends to take about the fantasy genre as a whole and not > just Rowling's work. I'll just add a brief impression here since I did not see the programe in question and have no knowledge of this topic other than what you've presented us with here, June. Thanks for bringing it up. I will tell you I'm scratching my head a bit over the "stock character" comment, not that many of JK's characters *aren't* stock, but Andrew Davies? Pride and Prejudice? I love Jane Austen and I adored the BBC production of same--I have the entire thing on tape. But WHAT, if not STOCK are many of Jane Austen's characters? Mr and Mrs Bennett are about as "stock" as you can get--and I love both of them. Miss Darcy? The Arch Sister? Come ON, Andrew! Do we need move on to Mr Fawningvicar (name escapes me) and the Ohsogood best friend who marries him--Lizzie's cast-off suitor--because she can expect no better? And DON'T get me started on Jane. Ok, now there I've gone on a rant about flawed--stock--stereotypical characters in a recognized work of great literature. A work of literature that is also among one of my favorite books. As you said, this list was about favorite books, not "dry boring books your professors told you to like". Who would want to be stuck on a desert island with Beowulf? (Ok, maybe someone, but I'd rather have Jane and Jo, thanks very much.) Let me ask you something. Did anyone happen to ask Andy what was the critical opinion of our Jane was at the time her works were actually published? I offer this exerpt from the Pengiun reader's guide: "In 1843, the historian Thomas Macaulay called Austen the writer to "have approached nearest to the manner of the great master" Shakespeare; Charlotte Bront? felt, on the contrary, that "the Passions are perfectly unknown to her.... Jane Austen was a complete and most sensible lady, but a very incomplete, and rather insensible (not senseless) woman." Anthony Trollope made up his mind as a young man that "Pride and Prejudice was the best novel in the language," while Mark Twain claimed to feel an "animal repugnance" for Austen's writing." To each his own. Mel From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sun Oct 19 17:02:52 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:02:52 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83121 Geoff Bannister" wrote: "Going back to my initial point, if JKR had shown teachers spending time in the classroom teaching ethics etc., it would have slowed up the pace of the book; a number of readers would have felt that they were being lectured. Instead you gain a subconscious insight into the structure of what goes on, rather as much of our own personal development will have taken place without formal instruction by following examples - close family and role models whom, for some reason, we trust and feel comfortable with and, as a result, begin to model ourselves on. Perhaps things go wrong in the wizarding world as in the real world when we look at the wrong role models or lack folk in whom we can place a complete trust." Now me (Wendy): Okay - I see your point, and I do agree that watching Harry sitting through ethics class might not be the most interesting read. But there are two separate points that come to mind in reading your message: First, in my original response, I was looking at the Potterverse not as a series of books and what I would like to read in those books, but treating it as a real place (this is generally how I approach my analysis, although it's certainly not the *only* way to analyse the books). If what we've seen in the books is a good indication, I personally feel that the students at Hogwarts are *not* receiving enough guidance in matters of ethics. I'd like to know that they are getting formal training, or see better role modeling than what we've seen to date. Earlier in this thread, someone (don't remember who and can't seem to find the quote - sorry!) mentioned that ethics training is probably integrated into each individual class. JKR could easily show us an example of this in just one of Harry's classes to show us that this is how ethics training is delivered. So, I'm not suggesting that she spend a lot of page time on ethics classes, but I would like to know just what sort of training Harry (and other children in the WW) receive in this area. Second, and more importantly, I think you're spot-on in your comments about role models - and it's exactly that "subconscious insight" which disturbs me. IMO, we've seen a lot of *very* poor role-modeling so far in this series, and I would be disturbed to see Harry begin to pattern his own behaviour on that of, say, Dumbledore, or Arthur Weasley, both of whom seem to be put in the category of "good role-models." There are a lot of examples I could use, but I'll point out just a few: Dumbledore's handling of the point-giving at the end of PS/SS. I don't have a problem with him giving the points to Gryffindor, but I think that awarding those points as he did, in the middle of the leaving feast when the Slytherins thought they'd won, was terribly bad form, not to mention bad strategy for improving house relations. It was cruel, a slap in the face to the Slytherin kids (and most probably to Snape, as well), and it also seemed to me to be an action that was likely to create a lot of resentment in those Slytherin kids. If this is the way Dumbledore treats them, is it any wonder they might turn to someone else (Voldemort, perhaps) if the opportunity arises?. (I also think this is exactly what happened with Snape when he was a student, so it seems Dumbledore doesn't have much capacity to learn from his mistakes). Sure, in that moment at the leaving feast, the Gryffindors (and the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws, for that matter), were thinking that Dumbledore was doing a fantastic thing - getting back at those "nasty" Slytherins. But I'm concerned that what he was really teaching them is that it's okay to humliate your enemies if you can, and then gloat about it afterward. I don't personally think this is a good lesson in any way - also not what I'd call good role-modeling. As for Arthur Weasley, he is portrayed as a lovely guy, right? And still it is obvious that, while he *likes* Muggles, he doesn't think of them as equals - he seems to think that they are like rather stupid children who occassionally manage to do something clever. We've also seen him create a loop hole in Ministry law so he could tinker with his illegal car, and receive tickets to the Quidditch World Cup for helping a friend (Otto Bagman, Ludo's brother) get out of a jam with an illegal lawnmower. Also, not good role modeling. IMO, of course. And, as I pointed out in my earlier message, I'm most disturbed about the use of Obliviate - it seems like that spell gets tossed around frequently and we've yet to heard a single word about the ethics of altering someone's memory. At worst, it's seen as okay for Wizarding folk to change someone's memory for whatever reason, no questions asked. At *best* (and I use that term loosely), it's only okay to use Obliviate unrestrainedly on Muggles. Which again brings us to the very ugly question of basic human rights. Good role modeling? Absolutely not. An accurate reflection of the sorts of things we see happening in real life? Yes, I think so. So, I think that many of these things are *not* shown to us as examples of things not to do, because the wizard in question often has no bad consequence as a result of dodgy moral actions. In some cases, this bad behaviour is actually rewarded (Arthur receiving *really good* tickets to the QWC, for example). It looks to me like this sort of stuff is just business as usual. Of course, maybe *that's* the point - maybe the WW really is morally bankrupt, and this will be a big issue in the final books. There *are* times when good ethics are role-modeled, but I see so many examples where they are *not* (and rather glaring examples, IMO), that I really hope JKR is going to go somewhere with these things in the future. I don't necessarily want to hear a Binn's-type lesson on ethics, but I would like to hear some of these troubling issues addressed in *some* way in future books. Cheers! Wendy From relay_hpfgu at fictionalley.org Sun Oct 19 17:22:32 2003 From: relay_hpfgu at fictionalley.org (hpfgu_elf) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:22:32 -0000 Subject: Release of the Convention Alley Call for Papers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83122 The Convention Alley Planning Committee is pleased to announce the release of the Call for Papers (CFP) for our HPfGU-sponsored international Harry Potter conference to be held July 30-August 1, 2004 at the University of Ottawa. The text of the CFP follows this introduction, and may also be found as both a text file and in Word in the files section of the HPfGU-Convention list. While we welcome submissions by members of the professional and academic communities, we strongly encourage members of the fandom community to participate. That means we are looking for submissions from *you*, the die-hard fan who can recite the Harry Potter books verbatim, who knows the content of every JKR interview ever given! The topic areas noted in the CFP are merely suggestions ? we are open to proposals on any and all facets of the Harry Potter fandom. Proposals may take the form of a 500 word abstract or a completed conference paper (approximately 5-7 pages). Please note that proposals submitted via regular mail must be postmarked no later than January 3, 2004, and proposals submitted electronically must be received by January 17, 2004. Please read the CFP carefully to note all of the particulars. We are looking forward to receiving your submissions! ~Phyllis Morris on behalf of the Convention Alley Planning Committee CALL FOR PAPERS Convention Alley An International Harry Potter Convention University of Ottawa Ottawa, Ontario (Canada) July 30-August 1, 2004 This international conference envisions bringing the Harry Potter fandom together in the beautiful city of Ottawa to discuss J.K. Rowling's novels with one another and with literary scholars. In addition to a keynote speaker and programming sessions presented by fans and professionals, the convention will feature directed discussion groups as well as informal opportunities for fans and scholars to get to know one another and to enjoy the city of Ottawa. A highlight of the convention will be a party for all participants to celebrate Harry's birthday on July 31st. The Canadian Programming Committee seeks proposals for presentations, moderated panels and workshops on any topic relating to the Harry Potter novels and/or their fan community. We strongly encourage members of the fandom community to participate, and also welcome submissions by members of the professional and academic communities. While potential topics and suggested submissions are noted below to get your creative juices flowing, we are interested in any and all ideas ? please do not feel limited by the potential topic areas or by the examples of potential submissions! Presenters should be at least 18 years old, as the conference programming is intended for adults. However, participants are encouraged to bring their families and many of the informal events will be open to family members. Programming Sessions Potential programming session topics include, but are not limited to, the following areas: ? Characters in the Harry Potter series. Thanks to the myriad of characters dreamed up by Rowling, there are innumerable opportunities for presentations in this area. A submission might include two panelists presenting evidence in Rowling's canon that Professor Severus Snape will turn out to be evil in the end, and two other panelists presenting canon evidence that Snape will turn out to be good. Another submission might propose a presentation comparing Draco Malfoy as he is portrayed in Rowling's canon vs. Malfoy as he is known in fanfiction. ? Mythology in the Harry Potter series. Rowling draws heavily from mythology in the series, from the three-headed dog Fluffy (based on Cerberus who guarded the Underworld in Greek mythology) to names such as "Argus" and "Narcissa." A submission might highlight the characters that are based on mythology, explain their mythological basis and provide a rationale for why Rowling chose to link those characters with these specific myths. ? Education in the Harry Potter universe. We invite teachers (and administrators) in the fandom to compare their jobs to the ones held by their analogs in the Harry Potter novels. Possible topics include detailed analyses of Rowling's views on the state's role in education, and how the teachers in Rowling's universe would fare in the "real world". ? Symbolism in the Harry Potter series. Proposals might explore how Rowling uses symbols and metaphors to express her views and the goals of the series. For example, submissions might analyze metaphors of death ("beyond the veil") or symbols of Christ (the stag, the phoenix, Harry's repeated resurrections). ? Fandom Influences in the Harry Potter series. A proposal in this area might review Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix to identify instances where Rowling may have responded to popular questions from the fandom (e.g., how to pronounce "Hermione"). ? Understanding and Exploring British Terms in the Harry Potter novels. For non-British readers, some of Rowling's British expressions and terms are, well ? foreign! A submission in this area might propose a roundtable discussion run by British fans that would entertain audience questions on dialects and British terms in the novels. The Canadian Programming Committee cannot stress enough that these topic areas are merely suggestions. They should not, therefore, be interpreted in any way as limitations on the subject matter of potential proposals. Proposals on any and all facets of the Harry Potter fandom are welcome and encouraged. The Committee only requests that your proposal be respectful of the interests and views of others in the fandom. Time Blocks Proposals should specify the estimated amount of time needed for presentation and discussion. Programming sessions will be held on Saturday, July 31 and Sunday, August 1. Our goal is to make all of the programming sessions as interactive as possible. Accordingly, for individual presentations, we suggest a planned presentation of between 30-45 minutes, followed by a 30-minute audience participation session. This is a guideline, however ? presenters are welcome to propose other ideas for encouraging audience participation. Strictly lecture-based presentations are discouraged, however. Accordingly, proposals must include an outline for how audience participation will be solicited. The suggested time period for moderated panels and workshops is between one hour and 30 minutes and two hours. As with the individual presentations, proposals for moderated panels should include a 30-minute audience participation session. A volunteer staff member will be present at each session to introduce the presenter, assist with any technical difficulties and facilitate the audience participation component. Proposal Submissions Proposals submitted via regular mail must be postmarked no later than: January 3, 2004. Proposals submitted electronically must be received by: January 17, 2004. Proposals may take the form of a 500 word abstract or a completed conference paper (approximately 5-7 pages). Any attachments must be in Microsoft Word to be readable. Proposals should be sent via e-mail (preferred) or regular mail in advance of the submission deadline to the following: E-Mail submission: convention_alley @yahoo.ca. Please use "Ottawa 2004 Programming Submission" in the subject line. Regular mail: Convention Alley Box 36058 1318 Wellington Street Ottawa, ON K1Y 3A0 Canada Proposal Evaluation Proposals will be evaluated based on an assessment of the level of interest conference participants will have in the topic area and the originality of the ideas presented, as well as the use of correct spelling and grammar. Notification and Submission of Final Papers We plan to notify presenters whose proposals are selected for presentation at the convention during the week of February 16, 2004. We regret that, in order to keep conference fees as low as possible, we are unable to fund presenters' registration, hotel and/or travel costs, or provide any other form of remuneration. Presenters will need to register for the conference at their own expense when they confirm that they will present (confirmations must be postmarked or e- mailed by March 3, 2004). Presenters must submit their final completed paper in an electronic format (either as a text file or in Word) to the above e-mail address by May 15, 2004 (preferred) or by regular mail to the above address by May 1, 2004. Completed papers sent by regular mail must be submitted on a disk. All submissions will be edited for consistency of style, acronym use, and correct punctuation and grammar. Guidelines to ensure uniform style in the published proceedings will be provided to each successful presenter when selection notifications are issued. No changes will be made to submitted text without the prior approval of the author. Directed Discussion Groups The only way to improve upon an on-line chat is to have an in-person chat! Directed discussion groups will be scheduled throughout the weekend to accomplish this. These sessions will not have formal presentations, but will be guided by a moderator to get topics started and to move the discussion along. Since it is an unfortunate inevitability that we will receive more submissions for presentations than we can accept, we will invite those individuals who submitted topics that are not chosen to serve as moderators for these panels. Disclaimers This convention is an unofficial event, and is not endorsed by HP Education Fanon, Inc., Warner Bros., the Harry Potter book publishers or J.K. Rowling and her representatives. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Oct 19 17:33:24 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:33:24 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alicia" wrote: > Hi my names Alicia, I've been reading all your posts for months now > and find them really interesting. But I have a query and was > wondering if anyone could help me? I want to know if anyone knows > what the 12 uses for dragons blood are? I tried searching the > archives but came up with nothing! If you have any idea please let > me know. Hermione recites the 12 uses of dragon's blood in her first year at Hogwarts, so I doubt there is any weapon grade use for it. I do wonder, though, how available fresh dragon parts are. Dragons are protected, yet Dragon livers were considered expensive at 17 Sickles (or 1 Galleon) an ounce. aussie From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Oct 19 17:50:53 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:50:53 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: Lots of snipping > Laura: > Cry me a river. You know you love it. Kneasy: Shh! Don't tell everybody! And anyway, all men love Julie London. > Laura: >> I'm not talking about ersatz coercive bonhomie (nice phrase). I'm > talking about normal, volitional relationships. He rejects any form > of connection except the most superficial, as far as I can see. And > he might well have done so under less dramatic circumstances. But he > can't legitimately go around believing that he has suffered more than > others whose families were killed by LV and his little friends. > Kneasy: Ta. Rather pleased with it myself. I for one refuse point blank to embrace workmates, neighbours or indeed any other part of the human race with which I do not have close emotional ties at the behest of a self-selected group of patronising, simplistic, 'lets all love one another' mental and social gauleiters. I submit that Snape would agree. Right. Spleen vented. Let's proceed. My contention is that he has been in a normal (or close to normal) relationship and that this was destroyed by, or at the instigation of, Voldemort and that Snape is now taking the position of 'once burned, twice shy.' (Doesn't this just tug at the heartstrings?) > Laura: > Sure, but what I'm asking is what happens after the catharsis you say > he needs. Let's say he kills LV (which I don't think will happen, > but this is more to do with Snape's character than with plot > predictions). My sense is that he wouldn't change one bit. Yet > isn't catharsis supposed to achieve something? Kneasy: We won't know. I'm betting that he won't survive. I'm not sure he wants to. Once his aim has been achieved (even if he gets that far), what else is left for him? An alliance made in heaven between Master of Potions and Herbologist Sprout? Will they wander off into the sunset in a haze of elixir fumes and compost residue? No, there's no plausible future for Snape. >Laura: > I looked through canon and didn't find any other references to > Snape's childhood expertise with the dark arts, so yeah, we have only > Sirius's comment, which also says that Snape was "famous" for his > attraction to the dark arts at school. That sounds to me like more > than personal prejudice. And if you suspect Sirius of being equally > knowledgeable, then who better to call Snape on it? > Kneasy: I'll repeat my question: Can Sirius be regarded as objective on the subject of Snape? I don't believe so. So far, canon gives us no examples of him performing any Dark Magic at all. Admittedly, he'd be elbow deep in it after he joined the DE Joy Club, but as a schoolboy? Dubious inference. > Kneasy previously: > > Secondly, any teenager who goads, taunts, or 'jokes' another into > > extreme danger is not blameless. School Rules? Who could envision > > similar circumstances? What would cover the situation? > > "Rule 17: Attempted manslaughter is not allowed." > > Sirius should have been punished. He knowingly put Snape in danger. > > > Laura responds: > Really? What happened to the idea of personal responsibility? (Some > libertarian you are, Kneasy.) If someone suggests that you do a > certain thing, who has the power to decide whether to do it-them or > you? Even teenagers don't do *everything* their peers tell them to, > especially peers they hate. Snape was so consumed with his desire to > get the goods on the Marauders that he didn't stop to think. His > anger is misdirected-he let Sirius make a fool of him. Snape should > be angry at himself for being so gullible. Sirius acted wrongly and > should have gotten a stern lecture but I think that would have been > enough. Kneasy: Yes, let's consider personal responsibility. Did Snape know that he was going into danger? No. Did Sirius know that Snape was going into danger? Yes. Who bears the responsibility? Sirius. Wouldn't *you* say that Sirius had a moral responsibility to Snape? Or have I misunderstood your ethics? Sure, Snape was eager, but to do what? What had he been told? What was it he suspected or surmised that he would find? Just what had Sirius said to him? "Go in there and you'll get the true lowdown on the Gang?" Hardly. > Laura: > Well, we've been around before on the subject of Sirius. All I'll > add here is that if Sirius was willing to provoke his powerful and > evil family at the age of 11 (according to your argument, because his > being sorted into Gryffindor would have been a direct insult to his > family), I sincerely doubt that he would ever have been afraid of > Snape. Kneasy: If Snape were as good at Dark Magic as Sirius intimated, maybe he should have been afraid. I've never considered which House Sirius was in, it's not a fact that I've ever thought to be critical to events. >Laura: > As for the MoM, I can't believe that even you think he > wouldn't have come to Harry's defense in a split second. No one, not > even DD, was going to keep him away from the DoM that night. > Kneasy: But being Sirius, it all went wrong - again! He seems to have been remarkably consistent in his ability to screw things up. (Secret Keeper, showdown with Pettigrew, Shrieking Shack, Kreacher, Ministry.) Dear, oh dear. Maybe I should consider his School House. Hufflepuff - with the duffers. Perfectly suited. From sydpad at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 18:11:43 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:11:43 -0000 Subject: Essence Divided (WAS: Kreature/Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83125 > This is all assuming that VM is not referring to Snape in [GoF Chap 33 UKPB > page565.] > <'And here we have six missing Death Eaters. . . three dead in my service. > One, too cowardly to return . . . he will pay. One, who I believe has left > me for ever. . . he will be killed, of course . . . most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service.' > <'He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts > that our young friend arrived tonight. . . > Actually, Rowling has confirmed that the 'one who left forever' was Snape, in an untranscripted book signing Q&A in Vancouver a couple of years ago. But what I REALLY wanted to reply to in your post was: > > > Going off at a complete tangent (Is this allowed?) > The strange comment made by Dumbledore as he watches the smoke form a > serpent?s head. > <[OoP Chapter 22 St Mungo?s Hospital UKHB page 415/416] > the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of surprise. ?But in essence > divided??> > > DD seems to be exploring the nature of the relationship between VM and > Harry, > > The comment sounds very much like a reference to that strange mystical poem > of Shakespeare?s ?Let the bird of loudest lay? also known as ?The Phoenix > and the Turtle. The concepts of essence and division are central to the > poem as a whole. One verse goes: > > So they loved as love in twain, > Had the essence but in one, > Two distincts, division none: > Number there in love was slain. > > Anybody interested? > Astrid, that is an AWESOME catch! To really get into this discussion, here is the full text of the mysterious poem with some explanatory notes: http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1850.html I'm going to scurry off and do some thinking about this (not to mention getting some work done) I just wanted to be sure your post was noticed. Sydney From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Oct 19 18:19:30 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:19:30 -0000 Subject: Something I'd like to see in the Books (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy" wrote: > Second, and more importantly, I think you're spot-on in your > comments about role models - and it's exactly that "subconscious insight" which disturbs me. IMO, we've seen a lot of *very* poor role-modeling so far in this series, and I would be disturbed to see Harry begin to pattern his own behaviour on that of, say, Dumbledore, or Arthur Weasley, both of whom seem to be put in the category of "good role-models." There are a lot of examples I could use, but I'll point out just a few: > > Dumbledore's handling of the point-giving at the end of PS/SS. I > don't have a problem with him giving the points to Gryffindor, but I think that awarding those points as he did, in the middle of the leaving feast when the Slytherins thought they'd won, was terribly bad form, not to mention bad strategy for improving house relations. << Pippin: I don't want to start this debate again, but read carefully, and you'll see there's no indication that anybody but Draco and Harry were surprised. Harry was incommunicado in the hospital wing after Ron and Hermione made their visit. A lot coud have happened meanwhile. Whenever someone makes an unexpected announcement from the Head Table, the questions and comments fly. Not that time. Instead Rowling remarks on the silence. I can never figure out why the first Slytherin loss in seven years is taken as a sign of Dumbledore's anti-Slytherin leanings, anyway. How do we know that Slytherin never made a last minute save themselves? Just because Harry and Draco didn't know what was coming doesn't mean that nobody else did, including the rest of the Slytherins. Suppose they knew that Dumbledore was going to award last minute points. Do you think it would have stopped them from hanging their banners and cheering themselves as loudly as they could? Draco is rather famous for not getting it...he probably couldn't make himself believe that Slytherin were going to lose anymore than Harry could make himself believe that his vision of Sirius was a trick. Wendy: > As for Arthur Weasley, he is portrayed as a lovely guy, right? < Pippin: No. Harry thinks he is a lovely guy, and he is, compared to say, Lucius Malfoy or Vernon Dursley. Does a person have to be perfect to be a role model? Arthur is a pretty good guy despite his faults, which is all we have a right to expect from a decent person, IMO. Most of us can't be perfect, so what could a perfect role model provide us with, except a reason to despair of ourselves? . Wendy: > > And, as I pointed out in my earlier message, I'm most disturbed about the use of Obliviate - it seems like that spell gets tossed around frequently and we've yet to heard a single word about the ethics of altering someone's memory. << Pippin: cough*Lockhart*cough . Wendy: >>At worst, it's seen as okay for Wizarding folk to change someone's memory for whatever reason, no questions asked. At *best* (and I use that term loosely), it's only okay to use Obliviate unrestrainedly on Muggles. Which again brings us to the very ugly question of basic human rights.<< Pippin: Now you've touched on something interesting. The wizards isolated themselves from the Muggle world back in 1750 or so. The idea that individuals have rights and governments exist to secure them was scarcely accepted in those days. The French and American revolutions were yet to be fought. In those days, and to this day in many non-Western societies, human rights were vested in the *class*, rather than the individual. Women were considered to have different rights than men, peasants had different rights than nobles, and so on. The wizards seem to live in a society where humanist revolutions never took place. They don't think of people as having equal individual rights; instead it's maintaining their rights as wizards that concerns them. Wizards have a right to exist free of interference from Muggles, Muggles have no right to know about wizards, therefore it's okay to modify Muggle memories. Harry, who has grown up in a society where the concept of individual rights is accepted, assumes that any decent wizard would treat an Elf as an equal...and yet we see that it isn't so. Even decent wizards like Sirius think that House Elves are inferior. IMO, one of the reasons Hermione's attempts to lead the House Elves into revolution has failed is that she takes the concept of individual rights for granted and doesn't see that the House Elves have to be educated to understand it first. Pippin From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 19 18:29:43 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:29:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 12 uses for Dragons Blood References: Message-ID: <000e01c3966e$f86bf720$3958aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83127 Aussie: > Hermione recites the 12 uses of dragon's blood in her first year at > Hogwarts, so I doubt there is any weapon grade use for it. [with a *poof,* a plume of purple smoke appears. Amanda emerges from it, waving the smoke away and coughing. Her T-shirt reads "My Other Personality is a L.O.O.N., Too"] Citation, please? To my recollection this doesn't appear anywhere in the books. The only mention of it is on the "Dumbledore" Chocolate Frog card. We know the 12th use is oven cleaner, which comes from a JKR interview (San Francisco Chronicle, 30 October 1999, interview), but nowhere have I ever heard of a complete list. If you've seen one, please let us know where. Lexicon Steve will want it. ~Amanda, L.O.O.N.* ---------------------- *League Of Obsessive Nitpickers. Membership awarded upon recognition by established L.O.O.N.s. From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 19 18:34:00 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:34:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 12 uses for Dragons Blood References: Message-ID: <001301c3966f$9168b300$3958aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83128 Follow-up with URL for interview where JKR mentions the 12th use of dragon's blood. I think that's the only one we know. (Thanks to Kelley for finding me the link): http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-sfchronicle -chonin.html Almost at the very end: "Q: What are the 12 uses for dragon's blood? -- Kelsey Biggar, age 9 A: I have a very good reason for not telling you -- the movie script writer wants me to give him that information for the film. But I can say that the 12th use is oven cleaner. ~Amanda, L.O.O.N. From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Oct 19 18:45:47 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:45:47 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: <001301c3966f$9168b300$3958aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: >> > A: I have a very good reason for not telling you -- the movie script writer > wants me to give him that information for the film. But I can say that the > 12th use is oven cleaner. > > ~Amanda, L.O.O.N. Suggestions: 1. An excellent (though intense) haemorrhoid preparation 2. Fantastic in certain "wild" cocktails 3. Brilliant in stir-fry. And apologies for levity. Anyone else? June From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 19 19:16:42 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:16:42 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: <000e01c3966e$f86bf720$3958aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: << Citation, please? To my recollection [Hermione reciting the twelve uses of dragon's blood] doesn't appear anywhere in the books. The only mention of it is on the "Dumbledore" Chocolate Frog card. >> Nitpick: PS/SS, Chapter 14: "Hermione, the exams are ages away." "Ten weeks," Hermione snapped. "That's not ages, that's like a second to Nicolas Flamel." "But we're not six hundred years old," Ron reminded her. "Anyway, what are you studying for, you already know it A." "What am I studying for? Are you crazy? You realize we need to pass these exams to get into the second year? They're very important, I should have started studying a month ago, I don't know what's gotten into me...." Unfortunately, the teachers seemed to be thinking along the same lines as Hermione. They piled so much homework on them that the Easter holidays weren't nearly as much fun as the Christmas ones. It was hard to relax with Hermione next to you reciting the twelve uses of dragon's blood or practicing wand movements. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Oct 19 19:16:52 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:16:52 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood (Some TBAY) In-Reply-To: <000e01c3966e$f86bf720$3958aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83131 > Aussie: > > > Hermione recites the 12 uses of dragon's blood in her first year at > > Hogwarts, so I doubt there is any weapon grade use for it. Amanda Geist wrote: > [with a *poof,* a plume of purple smoke appears. Amanda emerges from > it, waving the smoke away and coughing. Her T-shirt reads "My Other > Personality is a L.O.O.N., Too"] A huge, dark shadow appears, seemingly out of nowhere, behind Amanda. Light glints off some formidable claws and fangs as it looms near. A hairy arm extends towards Amanda that, seemingly noticing something, turns and a gasps of surprise is drawn from her lips "Grey! Damn, you gave me a scare" "And rightly so, my dear 'Manda. In you haste to put on that t-shirt, you seem to have forgotten to check your sources. Now, I cannot have a LOON citing canon wrong, can I? Lets see, according to the recordings of the Safe House microphones in this place, you said: > Citation, please? To my recollection this doesn't appear anywhere in > the books." PS, ch. 14: "It was hard to relax with Hermione next to you reciting the twelve uses of dragon's blood..." > The only mention of it is on the "Dumbledore" Chocolate Frog card. Unfortunately, no. I hope this doesn't get you thrown out of LOON. > We know the 12th use is oven cleaner, which comes from a JKR > interview (San Francisco Chronicle, 30 October 1999, interview), but > nowhere have I ever heard of a complete list. If you've seen one, > please let us know where. Lexicon Steve will want it. > > ~Amanda, L.O.O.N.* Notice that Aussie didn't say that he had seen the list, but that since Hermione was studying in first year, none of those uses were going to be dangerous. I disagree - I think at least a couple of them are probably as components of magical spells or poitions of extremem potency, but really we don't know one way or the other at this point. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, nitpicking the nitpicker From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 19 19:18:47 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:18:47 -0000 Subject: Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83132 Talisman wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83112 : << (In case I'm assuming agreement on this point, I'll add that because TR/MemoryVort knew of LV's experiences with Harry, it follows that LV shared TR/MemoryVort's knowledge, as well.) >> No. Diary!Tom knew about Harry's history because Ginny had told him. From snapesmate at hotmail.com Sun Oct 19 19:23:20 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:23:20 -0000 Subject: COS clues In-Reply-To: <20031017135652.97186.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Granny Goodwitch wrote: > > 17October2003 > > Joj wrote: > "I think Molly is definitly the weakest link in the order. She's living in fear ..." > > Jen wrote: > > "...we're *told* the information in the books is real. In COS, Lockhart says: "There was work involved. I had to track these people down. Ask them exactly how they managed to do what they did." (US, chap. 16, p.298). So Molly could consult them as an accurate resource (if what he said is true)." > > Granny responds: > > Good points! Seems to me that JKR is trying to convey to us the extent of Molly's fear and worry, her desperation. Granted, she may not seem such a strong link in the chain, but SOMETHING is nagging at Molly and we can see by her nervous erratic behaviour that she can't quite put a finger on it; but she knows somethings not right; part of the puzzle is missing. For example, in Book 2 (if memory serves me right) we meet Crookshanks, the cat. He is described as bandy legged and ginger colored, and Ron notes the strange shape of his face. In Book 4, there is a similar description of Mundungus--bandy legged and having reddish hair, and a description of his strange features. Also in Book 4, we are reintroduced to Mundungus along with Arabella, cat lover. Excuse the expression, but I smell a rat. JKR is up to something here. Anybody have any ideas? > > Granny Crookshanks was introduced in book 3, PoA. However, this is still an excellent point because as we know, "Crookshanks" chummed up with Snuffles, Sirius' animagus form! Coincidence, I think not. Thank you Granny!! Lynnette, who thinks Snape is a good person, even if he is not a "nice" person! From tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 19:35:19 2003 From: tub_of_earwax at yahoo.com (tub_of_earwax) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:35:19 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" > wrote: > > evil_sushi2003: > > Sorry if this has been said before. > > > > I was just musing over the fact that we see a lot of the Bones's in > > OotP. > > > > I wonder if anyone else picked up on this, or not if you don't > think > > it is a disscussable point. > > > > We first see Madame Bones at Harry's hearing, we are then > introduced > > to Susan Bones. > > Geoff: > Just to be pedantic, we are actually introduced to Susan Bones in PS > when she is the second named person to be sorted and goes into > Hufflepuff. Me: To be very precice. We were first introduced to Susan and her family in PS/SS when Hagrid said that some of the best families were murdered, like the Bones'. Then we meet Susan at teh sorting ceremony. Then in CoS she is one of the people talking to ernie McMillan (sp?) in the library, about Harry being the heir of Slytherin. She is the one who finds it strange, and is scpetical about it. Then not much more on Susan untill OotP. She will probably be of some use lateron because she is a pureblood, from Hufflepuff, and on the good side. And she can't be all non-powerful either. I don't remember how she performed in OotP. But anyway, thought I'd add that. *Lara*. From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Sun Oct 19 12:35:45 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:35:45 +0100 Subject: wizarding population References: Message-ID: <25f501c39648$267c7c10$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83135 Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote > > Robert Shaw wrote in > > > Fewer muggles born in 1914-19 means fewer muggle-born wizards, > > hence fewer wizards in total, and so on. Catlady: > Only if the number of muggle-born wizards is proportional to the > number of Muggles born. Even if inheritance of wizardry was a matter > of Muggle genetics, if the birth dearth during the Great War affected > parents who didn't carry the recessive gene for magic far more than > the parents who did carry it, Unlikely. The birth dearth was because so many young men were in the trenches, hence unable to father children. Why would recessive genes for magic stop you getting called up? > In my own theory, is only partly a matter of Muggle genetics > but also partly magical, with some deep magic causing that the number > of magic babies born equals the number of mages who die, so that > number of Muggle-born wizards has nothing to do with the number of > Muggle births, but only with the excess of wizard deaths over wizard > births. > Conceivable, though it does raise other questions. What controls the area over which the wizardly population is in balance? An excess of wizard deaths in the UK could be balanced by more muggle-borns in India, unless this deep magic respects national boundaries. Considering how young most nations are, I'd consider that unlikely. More likely, the new muggle-borns would be equidistributed across the globe diluting the effects of Voldemort's killing spree into insignificance. However, in the absence of firm canonical support, I have to discount this theory. Of course, there's no firm canonical evidence that there are genes for magic either, but nor is there any such evidence that the potterverse venus circles their sun. It's simplest to assume that muggle science is valid in the potterverse unless directly contradicted (and sometimes even then) or too many thing would become undecidable. On that basis, I'll assume magic has genes, unless overtly contradicted by canon. > > I feel sure that the wizarding birth rate fall was more than 2000 > years ago, maybe it was 8000 years ago. JKR has presented a wizarding > world in which equal opportunity of wizards and witches seems to be > the default position But for how long? > Elfrida Clagg (wrongly called > Cragg in OoP) was Chief of the Wizard's Council in the mid-1300s. Matilda was Queen of England two centuries earlier, not a great time for women's rights. There've always been exceptional women who gained power in the teeth of prejudice but what matters is when powerful women became the norm. Nor is equality of opportunity necessarily connected with birth rate. For muggles bringing up a large family was a full time job, because of the sheer drudgery involved. Magic makes it much easier, house elves more so. Elfrida could have had twelve children but no husband, and still done her job well, unlike any muggle of her time. This means that for wizards, there is no conflict between large families and feminine equality. -- Robert From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Sun Oct 19 13:50:22 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:50:22 +0100 Subject: Wizarding Population References: <1066387200.5111.43008.m12@yahoogroups.com> <6.0.0.22.0.20031017210334.02785d00@pop.bredband.net> Message-ID: <25f601c39648$276c5a50$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83136 Mikael Raaterova wrote: > Robert Shaw wrote, in reply to me > > >> The muggle population structure is still showing the effects of >> WWII, fifty years later. >> >> Given their longer lifespans, the wizarding population will >> be directly affected by events as far back as 1875-1900. > Mikael: > While the population *structure* and age distribution still shows the > effects of the cohort-affecting events of WWII, AFAIK the deaths of > WWII and post-war baby-boom didn't affect the population trend, e.g. > aggregate growth, in any significant way True, but to extrapolate the wizarding population from Hogwarts without assuming (in the absence of good evidence) that structure to be invariant, you do need to known what the population structure is. > (I'll admit I'm a bit hazy > on WWII's population effects in the British isles, so I'm prepared to > be proven wrong; data from 1950 onwards shows only steady increase > though). As an aside, much of that increase is actually due to immigration. How do wizards deal with that? The Hogwarts' quill records the names of wizards born within range, but Indian muggle-borns whose parents have just immigrated will not be listed. English muggle-borns whose families emigrate to the US when they're five will cause similar problems Does the Ministry hunt down immigrant muggle-borns, and notify other countries of emigrants, or do the muggle-borns in such families slip through the cracks? If the ministry lost track of many muggle borns during the mass muggle migrations of the last centuries this could have a significant impact on wizarding demographics. [Muggle migration also mean that even if Catlady's theory were true, UK wizarding numbers would still change, unless the deep magic in her theory can predict where the muggle-borns will be living when they're eleven] > >> Furthermore, since a significant proportion (currently about >> 25%) of wizards are muggle born, any change in muggle >> demographics will have a knock-on effect on wizard >> demographics. > > Changes in muggle numbers have to be *huge* to affect the number of > muggle-born wizards. The change may be huge, but since the muggle population is also huge this cancels out. A 5% change in muggle numbers will produce a 5% change in muggle-born numbers, to a first approximation. >If we ignore post-OWL dropouts, then 36 > muggle-borns enter Hogwarts per year (in present years), if 25 % of > students are muggle-borns. So, e.g, a 5% increase in the muggle population means 2 extra muggle borns, and the percentage increases to 26%. A 15% increase would push the percentage to 28% and so on (though its not actually proportional) Conversely, if the muggle birth-rate halves one year, as during the world wars, then only 18 of the 126 students for that year will be muggle-born (14.2%). If we based our estimates of wizarding population on Hogwarts today, we'd overestimate the number of wizards in their sixties by over 10% >Granted, the muggle population > has grown a bit over a hundred years, so the generational proportions > of muggle-borns should be lower in the older generations and higher > in the younger generations. Even so, if 75 % of present Hogwarts > students are muggle-borns, it only amounts to about 100 magical > births to muggle parents per year. Anyway, it's reasonable that the > vast majority of muggle-born wizards are still relatively young, and > that muggle-borns will outnumber wizard-borns in the foreseeable > future. > Quite possibly, for a century or so. Poplations projections beyond that point are iffy, but the muggle born population seems to be static now. > Also, I see no reason at all to speculate about changes in the rate of > births of wizards-to-be in the muggle population since there's > absolutely no hint of it in canon. Having them be a constant fraction > of muggle births seems instead a reasonable assumption. > I agree. There are factors that could change this percentage, but only slowly. They can be safely neglected as long as we're not trying to estimate the wizarding population in 745AD > >> The muggle birth rate fall certainly is, which has consequences. > > If you don't accept a fairly stable wizarding population, you'll have > to posit that they have had periods of low mortality and high > fertility followed either by cataclysmic extermination events or > equal periods of population decline. I think you'll have trouble > finding causes for such changes. The problem is that we know the muggle population has had major fluctations, which must have some impact on the wizarding population. I'll accept fairly stable, but not static, and you need static to extrapolate from Hogwarts. > As a conclusion and summary to my points above, it's reasonable to > assume a) that the wizard-born wizarding population have been stable > for ages, and b) that the proportion of muggle-born has been > increasing steadily as a function of the muggle population growth > Thus we should be quite able to deduce quite a lot from the number > of students at Hogwarts. True, within limits. Going by the student population of Hogwarts alone, we can deduce the wizarding population with an error of perhaps plus or minus 50% (not good enough to base any conclusions on) Take account of shifts in muggle demographics and we can reduce that error to perhaps 10%, at the cost of complexity. > I definitely agree that the muggle > population explosion *is* a huge change, but it's effects haven't > reached full strength yet, since muggle-borns are as of yet only 25 % > percent of the total wizarding population. I don't have UK cohort > data with which to calculate the likely age structure of muggle-borns It's all available on the UK census web site. The more intelligent wizards can probably see the effects of this change coming, which will be worrying the pure-bloods, with the consequences we've seen. -- Robert From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 19 20:02:29 2003 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:02:29 -0000 Subject: Anyone else over PPD? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83137 I have gotten over the bad case of Post Phoenix Depression I had in June and July and August, and I can now wait for Book 6 until JKR is good and ready to release it. I hope she doesn't rush it into production just because fans are waiting but works hard on every detail and gets it just the way she wants it. In the meantime, we can keep on going to the HP sites and I plan to reread all five books starting around Christmas looking carefully for hints of what is to come. Remember that the sooner JKR gets Books 6 and 7 out the sooner Post Potter Depression is going to set in, and that's going to be really bad. Bobby Jones From strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 19 14:06:13 2003 From: strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:06:13 -0000 Subject: Hermionie and house elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83138 "she pulled out two misshapen woolly objects, placed them carefuly on a table then covered them with a few screwed-up bits of parchment and a broken quill and stood back to admire the effect... 'They're hats for the house - elves'... OOP p230 Hermione is pretty obsessed with obtaining rights for the house- elves, but something struck me as I was re-reading OOP last night. Does Hermione have the right to give the Hogwarts house - elves clothes? Surely Dumbledore is their master? In GOF: "'Can't house-elves speak their minds about their master, then?' Harry asked 'Oh, no, sir, no,' said Dobby, looking suddenly serious. 'Tis part of the house-elvs enslavement, sir. We keeps their secrets and our silence, sir, we upholds the family's honour and we never speaks ill of them - though Professor Dumbledore told Dobby he does not insist on this'"... Dobby certainly considers Dumbledore to be his master, so it can be extrapolated that the other elves feel similarly. The question is, can house -elves be freed by anyone giving them clothes? IMO no - otherwise Harry could just have given Dobby a sock at any random time in COS to free him. Another question - do the house - elves at Hogwarst consider the students to be their masters? I would say no, otherwise they would have been mentioned in the passage above. Thus, I would say that it would be only Dumbledore ( or at least one of the teachers) who could free a house - elf. So why does Hermione think that she can free them? I think that it is arrogant of Hermione to assume that she is the master of any house - elf, and has the right to assume such power over any sentient being. Although she is really the only character to be seen standing up for the elves, she is, in her own way, almost as bad as Lucius Malfoy, who thinks that Dobby has no mind of his own. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Oct 19 20:19:48 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:19:48 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > Much snipping Nora: > Well, call myself unadventurous, then, but I prefer a stable and > justified hermeneutic exegesis to wild speculation, however amusing > it may be. I also get the gratification of not having to completely > and utterly junk my thoughts every time the canon changes. I don't > think there are enough facts to make good statements about a number > of things, and the Prank is sure one of them. > Kneasy: I thought we were into hermeneutic exegesis. Exposition of theory, or theoretical exposition, no? If you wait until the canon is complete, theorising is no longer possible. Only facts will remain. Or perhaps my vocabulary is not up to date with modern usage. Mind you, alluding that JKR is Gospel is going a touch too far IMO. Ah, the joys of changing your mind. Better than a massage, sometimes. Having an alter ego (Kneasy), I find it very easy to change my mind. I certainly changed it on reading the last book, didn't you? No previous theories or readings that needed modification in the light of fresh information? >Nora: > No, but my point has been missed. Cynics are just as bad as > Polyannas; they're simply the negative face. They're deluding > themselves into thinking that everything is *wrong* with the world > and people, rather than right. All people may have some degree of > self-delusion, but there's a flaw with degrees and nuance, which > demands a nuanced response. It's like the statement "All politicians > are corrupt." It's not only cynical but quite simply wrong, and > easily provable as such. Kneasy: You seem entirely negative about cynics and cynicism. Almost...hmmm...cynical by your own definitions. >Nora: > First of all, cynics can be intense and focused; frankly, they're so > focused on their cynicism that they only see through that lens, under > the delusion that that's seeing clearly. And this may come as a > surprise to you, but it took Kant's complete rethinking of ontology > and epistemology to get out of Hume's skepticism that doomed the > possiblity of empirical knowledge. So, quite well, I'd say. > Kneasy: Hope the List Elves are looking the other way. Be back on topic in a minute, honest. Kant stood up quite well for a hundred years. Then niggles started. By the time Bochvar, von Neumann, Birkoff and all the other new logics had been considered, Kant's idea that "logic admits to no further alteration." was heading for the dustbin marked 'Seemed like a good idea at the time." The logics of Quanta are liable to be the final straw that reduce him to historical footnote status. I consider his application to the study of Harry Potter largely irrelevant. I'd be delighted to utilise multi-logic systems in the interpretation of the characters, but unfortunately my maths isn't up to it. > > Kneasy previously: > > It was quite a common opening gambit in Grammar Schools > > in the UK, certainly in the 50s when I attended one. Students > > (and society) were so much less fragile then.... > > Hogwarts would be entirely recognisable to those of my > > generation in its organisation, teachers, teaching systems, > > modes of address and school ethic, including division into > > four Houses. Nora: > Understood; doesn't make it at all any less loathsome. > Kneasy: Oh, it wasn't loathsome. Uncomfortable sometimes. But a Snape-like teacher was a standard fixture in most schools. At that time teachers weren't employed to be nice. Their job was to make sure the students learned what they were teaching. They were effective, too. Any 'nice' teacher was immediately considered to be untrustworthy by the pupils. The boys then saw it as their function to bait him until he showed his true colours. Hey Presto! Another Snape. We salivated when informed that student teachers were coming for a term. Fresh meat! Fun and games, boys! Put him through the mill. Educationalists today would be horrified. Schooling was mostly a form of trench warfare between staff and pupils with occasional cease-fires. Why else is there a plethora of books published between 1900 and 60s, set in Boy's Schools and depicting the battles with such humorous relish? From Stalky & Co, through Bob Cherry, Jennings and culminating in the magnificent Molesworth. Consider the teaching methodologies at Hogwarts: McGonagall - brisk, fairly strict diciplinarian, does not allow interruptions or distractions. First class teacher. Sprout - practicals only, so discipline looser, cajoling type. Mediocre teacher. Flitwick - goes for paternalistic encouragement, but note that the pupils know he was a duelling champion. That would impress. Fair teacher. Trelawney - uses mysticism to hide her inadequacies. Fails when students start probing her facade. Poor teacher. Binns - dead loss. Uses boredom as a terror tactic. Poor teacher. Hagrid - enthusiasm personified. But unable to communicate well. Only physical presence keeps many of the students in line. Poor teacher. Lupin - communicates and engages well.Keeps 'em interested. Good teacher. Lockhart - blowhard. Ego gets in the way of him realising that he is useless as a teacher. Crouch!Moody - impressive (to students) teaching methods. Aura as Auror also impresses. Viewed as a master of his subject. Pity he was a fraud, he'd be an outstanding teacher. Quirrell - reputation as weak and ineffectual, nervous wreck. Not apparently up to the job, even without the burden of Voldy. Snape - master of his subject, diciplinarian, expects perfection. Treats students as he would adults. So we are presented with an entire spectrum of teaching personalities and associated teaching strategies, from ineffectual to perfectionist. Some are there as wallpaper to the plot, but there are those that are plot drivers and those that are plot driven (either initiate action threads or respond to action threads). Snape has been both. Antagonist and protagonist.Much tension has been generated by casting him as the obstructive bane of the students. Much, much more than if he were, say, cast as a Lupin type teacher. The plot needs a Snape, otherwise it might as well be Nancy Drew, not Harry Potter. I repeat, satisfying baddies are hard to find; and sometimes they turn out not to be so bad after all. Kneasy From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Sun Oct 19 19:23:47 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:23:47 +0200 Subject: Wizarding numbers Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031019212322.02788a40@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83140 Ffred wrote: >I'd be uncomfortable with the thought that wizard birth rates were less than >the replacement rate, because it would then imply that the only way the WW >population would be able to maintain itself would be by muggle born >additions. But the number of muggle borns is incredibly small, IMO too small >to be able to make up the numbers. There is a possible indication in canon for wizarding birth rates being below replacement levels. Ron states in PS that if wizards hadn't married muggles, they'd have died out. My impression from Ron's discussions with Hermione and other people is that Ron is shaky on facts. While I can't rule out Ron's statement, I find it unlikely to be true. If birth rates were below replacement levels, pure-bloods would have died out long ago, since they don't marry half-bloods or muggle-borns regardless of how many they are. One could argue that the pure-blood ideal is fairly recent and that pure-blood families thus haven't had time to die out, but Salazar's pure-blood mania indicates the ideal is old. Given that pure-blood wizards and witches can at least replace their numbers, we have to assume that wizarding birth rates are at or above replacement levels. Ffred wrote, in reply to me: > >Given lower mortality rates than muggles, wizarding fertility > >rates *must* have been comparatively low as well, or wizards would quickly > >out-grow the muggles. > >Unless you also assume that the wizard:muggle ratio has grown over the >years. I don't see that, especially if you look at pre-modern times. In a reply to Robert Shaw, I pointed out that if the WW enjoyed low mortality and high fertility (fast growth) for any sustained period of time, while muggles simultaneously suffered high mortality and high fertility (slow growth), which has been the case until modern times, then wizards would become more numerous than muggles in perhaps as little as 500 years, depending on starting populations and growth rates. / Mikael From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 19:18:16 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:18:16 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Freedom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83141 I don't think that Hermione's knitted clothing would have freed the elves. We have only seen two instances in which house elves have been freed, and in both instances it was their MASTER who gave them the clothing which freed them. Malfoy threw the sock and Dobby caught it, Crouch Sr. said "this means clothes" and sacked Winky. I don't see that Hermione leaving clothes out would have freed the elves, she is not their Master. It would have to be Dumbledore who gives clothing to the elves to free them. (He's the one who hired Dobby, so he must be in charge.) Hermione is 14 in GOF, at 14 many children are idealists and "have all the answers to the world's problems". ;) (I remember feeling that way at that age!) She thinks her knitted items will free the elves, but in reality they only offend the elves, so Dobby, who IS free, becomes the one to clean Gryffindor Tower. Dobby steps in to play interference, placating both sides. Hermione, who is usually so well-read on subjects, needs to find out EXACTLY how the giving of freedom to house elves works. Wouldn't she have asked somebody? Why in OOP is she no longer campaigning for S.P.E.W.? HedwigsTalons From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 19:03:44 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:03:44 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83142 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alicia" wrote: > Hi my names Alicia, I've been reading all your posts for months now > and find them really interesting. But I have a query and was > wondering if anyone could help me? I want to know if anyone knows > what the 12 uses for dragons blood are? I tried searching the > archives but came up with nothing! If you have any idea please let > me know. _We're_ never told the 12 uses of dragon's blood, but I remember that Hermione recites them "off-stage" when she's studying for an exam. So, SHE knows them, but we don't, and the boys probably won't remember when they will need to (like the Devil's Snare). Lucky for them Hermione has a photographic, instant recall memory!! HedwigsTalons From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Sun Oct 19 20:26:24 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:26:24 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" < malibu_barbieblonde at h...> wrote: [snip] > We later see Susan again, and we gain the knowlegde that her parents > were killed by DEs. Also to be specific, it was her uncle [Edgar Bones, Moody says so in the scene with the photo] and his family who were killed [We find out their relation to Susan in the scene where she says to Harry that it's horrible to be stared at for something like that, and that she understands how she feels. Sorry to be paraphrasing.] On your other question, I think that JKR brings this up as part of the greater visibility of Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws we seein OoP. Up to this latest book, Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws figured as either the people who mistrusted and/ or teased Harry, or as common enemies against Slytherin. In OoP Ernie, Hannah, Justin et al are shown as DA members, they believe Harry, and they support action against LV. [I'm sure this has been mentioned before, I don't take creadit for the idea] It moves us towards the unity that the Sorting Hat and DD have said will be necessary to defeat LV. I know that Susan Bones is a character that generates a lot of interest in fanfics, as someone who doesn't get a lot of page time on canon, and if she and/or her family will be more significant in the next two books many people will be happy... Gorda From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 19 20:30:58 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 15:30:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 12 uses for Dragons Blood (Some TBAY) References: Message-ID: <002001c3967f$e8768400$3958aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83144 Amanda complained, "Grey! Damn, you gave me a scare." Grey growled, "You seem to have forgotten to check your sources. Now, I cannot have a LOON citing canon wrong, can I? Lets see, according to the recordings of the Safe House microphones in this place, you said: > > Citation, please? To my recollection this doesn't appear anywhere in > > the books." "But look," Grey said. > PS, ch. 14: > "It was hard to relax with Hermione next to you reciting the twelve > uses of dragon's blood..." Amanda sighed. "Down, boy. I'll give you partial credit here. Aussie never did explicitly *say* the uses themselves were listed. However, the implication is very strong that they must have been known, for his (his?) conclusion to be that none of the uses were dangerous or of concern. I did react to his implication rather than the literal content of his post, so I yield in part." Grey's ruff flattened out a bit, and his ears pricked forward concernedly. "I hope this doesn't get you thrown out of LOON." Amanda laughed. "Hah. Fat chance. I'm founding member. You cost me a few points, but my hourglass is still comfortably full of amethysts." Grey continued, "Notice that Aussie didn't say that he had seen the list, but that since Hermione was studying in first year, none of those uses were going to be dangerous. I disagree - I think at least a couple of them are probably as components of magical spells or poitions of extreme potency, but really we don't know one way or the other at this point." Amanda agreed, "It was this assumption by Aussie that I was reacting to, mostly, which led me to incorrectly read his statement as 'we've seen the uses so we know.' "Which reminds me," she continued. "Hang on." She rummaged in her large purple handbag. "Ah. I've had this a while, sorry. Other things on my mind." She produced something oddly shaped, which clinked, and leaned toward Wolf. Wolf backed in alarm, but bumped into Amanda's large bookshelves and couldn't avoid her. Not wanting to bite, he stood affronted as she fastened something around his neck and stepped back to admire the effect. "Nice. Very nice." Wolf growled as he shook his head, disliking the unfamiliar feel around his neck. Amanda laughed. "Oh, calm down. You'll love it. It doesn't mean you're tame. And where else will you put that without it?" She pointed at Wolf's chest. Wolf craned his nose downward, but couldn't see, and whined in puzzlement. "Go look in any mirror. It doesn't have to be the mirror of Erised anymore." Wolf threw her a dubious look but trotted off. Swinging from the collar she'd gotten around his neck, sparkling as it moved, was a diamond-shaped golden tag. The many tiny amethysts mounted on it spelled out the word "L.O.O.N." ~Amanda > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf, nitpicking the nitpicker > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 18:59:16 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:59:16 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: > I was just musing over the fact that we see a lot of the Bones's in > OotP. I wonder if anyone else picked up on this, or not if you > don't think it is a disscussable point. ME: Actually, Susan Bones is mentioned in several of the books (PS/SS, and I can't find the other references right now! grr :-) )AND in the PS/SS movie she's the only one of the first years we see sorted besides HRH and Draco. I've thought for a long time that she will be very important to the series. HedwigsTalons MOD NOTE: Please note that any responses relating to Susan Bones in the movie should take place on the movie list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/. Thank you. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Oct 19 21:02:40 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:02:40 -0000 Subject: Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83146 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > > I actually think that the blood shield 1) is important for > undisclosed reasons 2) will play a role before the end of the > series, BUT 3) I also think DD has lied about its import so far, and > 4) I especially don't think it's "protection" explains/justifies the > 10+ years of abuse to which DD consigned Harry. Why not? The Dursleys have never treated Harry so badly that he wants to die. It's arrogant for us to assume that Harry would have preferred a happier but less secure placement. There is canon for attacks on Harry at Privet Drive. First of all we have LV's statement that Harry is better protected at Privet Drive than even he knows. That sounds as though Voldemort has tried to test the protection. The Dursleys have learned that it is not safe to leave Harry alone for any period of time. We suppose that this is because Harry has been doing accidental magic. But Harry can only do accidental magic when he's angry or upset. Why would he have been angry or upset if he was by himself? Harry seems to have forgotten an awful lot of his early life at the Dursleys. How many times was the house attacked, how many times did the Ministry have to come out and obliviate bystanders and Harry himself so that he wouldn't give anything away? We don't know, but Petunia is certain that leaving Harry alone for a moment invites disaster. The Death Eaters need not have had orders from Voldemort to attack Harry. And *they* can touch Harry as long as they're not being possessed. Pettigrew may have been too timid to risk murder for the sake of a wreck of a wizard, but Bellatrix certainly wasn't. Also, why does the runic charm, if it exists, have to be Dumbledore's idea? Why couldn't Lily have thought of it? And why wouldn't Dumbledore originally have planned for Harry to have stayed safe at Secret-Keeper protected Godric's Hollow until it was time for him to attend Hogwarts? According to Flitwick, Dumbledore suggested using the "immensely complex" Secret Keeper charm when one of his spies told him that LV was after the Potters...that is, when someone told Dumbledore that LV had discovered that the Prophecy could be about Harry. The key here is "immensely complex." Preparations to use the secret keeper spell must have been underway *before* Dumbledore realized that someone close to the Potters was a spy. At that point Dumbledore could guess that Voldemort would try to put pressure on the secret keeper, so he offered to be secret keeper himself. Perhaps Dumbledore considered alternative means of guarding Harry and decided that, despite it being compromised, Fidelius was still better than anything else he could offer at that time. > > Talisman now: > Weeeell, if Fidelius Charm's are so great, why did Harry have to go live with the nasty abusive Dursley's? In my restaurant you can > have your choice of menu options, either: > > 1) Fidelius Charm's aren't as wonderful as the professorial >gang in PoA thinks, and DD knew failure was an eventuality (though I still think he would have tweaked things so that the breach occurred when everyone was in place for the rune charm scenerio.) > > Therefore, DD's plan = no Fidelius Charm's going to fool LV, the only way to protect Harry is this rune charm (with all the attendant advantages of #2), so I'll get that all set up. And, we better have the failure happen in close proximity to LV's threat of attack, so that Lily's still hovering over Harry, (she can't stay in his room for years). We've got Wormtail here, just dying to pass > information. Now all I have to do is help Sirius have a "bright > idea." > > Or > > 2) Fidelius Charm's are air-tight, but DD just wants to do the > Dursley thing because he :1) needs to groom a certain mentality in > his little "chosen one," 2) has future plans for the blood-pact > business, 3) has future plans for the Dursely`s. The rest follows #1.<< What about 3) Fidelius was the best option Dumbledore had because he *wouldn't* ask anybody to die for Harry. Lily comes up with the idea on her own, and once she's done it, Dumbledore realizes her death has provided a better way to protect Harry than Fidelius. > > > > Talisman replied: > > Supposedly LV's been too weak to attack until his re-bodification in GoF [and after the disastrous graveyard duel he wants to know the rest of the prophecy before he tries again]. > Pippin Voldemort was too weak to attack *physically* But Voldemort could have possessed Vernon or another Muggle and made them murder Harry without touching him... by shooting him with a gun, for example. To forestall that, the spell on Privet Drive was necessary. Pippin From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 21:08:26 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:08:26 -0000 Subject: Copyright and Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > But probably the WW has its own regulations regarding the area we > call 'intellectual property'. Seeing as how its law is entirely > oblivious to any many concepts ingrained in the British Common Law > and a part of the British constitution, I would guess that it has a > very distinct and foriegn take on ownership of such material. What > that could be I have no idea. > > Golly Carolyn: Given JKR's lawyers enthusiastic pursuit of any copyright infringements on the Potter series, I'd guess this was one area of WW law that might turn out to be very similar to the RW ! From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Oct 19 22:32:41 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:32:41 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grahadh" wrote: > Tonks says "Amelia > bones is > okay Harry. She's fair, she'll hear you out" This is an > indication that Madame > Bones is well respected and open minded. I agree with you that Amelia Bones isn't in the order, or if she is, Tonks doesn't know it. And I think this quote is the biggest prove for it. If Amelia were in the order, Tonks would probably say: "Don't worry Harry. Amelia Bones is in the order. She'll try to help you." Hickengruendler From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 22:34:18 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:34:18 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: If you wait until the canon is complete, > theorising is no longer possible. Only facts will remain. Laura: Don't worry-Holmesian canon closed quite a while ago and people are still speculating and theorizing like mad. You can't let authorial whims slow you down too much. *grins* From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 22:40:20 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:40:20 -0000 Subject: a question about exams Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83150 In OoP we saw what O.W.L.s are like. Is this comparable to the exams English kids take in the RW? That is, the WW exams had essay and, where relevant, practical components, but were not standardized multiple choice or other non-essay formats. College entry exams here, are exactly that, although the SATs will soon be moving to an essay structure. And would we expect N.E.W.T.s to be the same sort of setup as O.W.L.s? I'm not entirely sure this is an appropriate list question, though, so feel free to respond to me offlist if you'd rather. Thanks for your help- Laura (another ignorant American-sigh) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 19 22:49:55 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:49:55 -0000 Subject: Essence Divided (WAS: Kreature/Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83151 Re: In Essence Divided --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > > The comment sounds very much like a reference to that strange > > mystical poem of Shakespeare's "Let the bird of loudest lay" > > also known as "The Phoenix and the Turtle". The concepts of > > essence and division are central to the poem as a whole. One > > verse goes: > > > > So they loved as love in twain, > > Had the essence but in one, > > Two distincts, division none: > > Number there in love was slain. > > > > Anybody interested? > > > > Astrid, that is an AWESOME catch! To really get into this > discussion, here is the full text of the mysterious poem with some > explanatory notes: > http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1850.html Thanks for the reference. I had never encountered that poem before. (As a digression, I wonder if common readers in Shakespeare's day could understand it better than I -- I mean, understand which words are the verbs and whch are the nouns and which verbs go with which nouns.) I'm also wondering why they're dead (especially as the phoenix is the symbol of overcoming death). Maybe they're dead because of the symbolism of dying to this temporal world by being born into eternal, timeless, or archetypal life. Are the poets REALLY trying to say there is no more Love, Loyalty, Truth, and Beauty in this temporal world? (Temporal 'shadows' of the Platonic ideals of Love, Loyalty, Truth, and Beauty.) While JKR may have gotten the phrase "in essence divided?" from her recollection of that poem, I think it unlikely that the poem sheds light on the Potter oeuvre -- the poem is about being in love, and Harry and LV are NOT in love. TMR and LV are NOT in love, either. "Love has reason, reason none," --?> "The heart has its reasons, which the reason does not know." Wasn't that Pascal urging people to Christian faith in spite of logic? Anyway, the idea of two become one by love ("Hearts remote, yet not asunder; Distance and no space was seen" in this poem, "two hearts that beat as one" in old pop songs) is a thing that Joseph Campbell went on and on about in THE MASKS OF GOD. He cited the story that some Greek (Plato?) told: originally humans were a being with two heads, four arms, four legs, etc, but the gods thought they were too powerful that way, so Zeus split each human into two, so since then we have been one-headed, two-armed, two-legged, and searching for our missing other half. From jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com Sun Oct 19 23:21:03 2003 From: jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com (lynnfaragher78) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:21:03 -0000 Subject: regarding: Susan Bones..... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83152 Hi :o) I just wanted to clarify something about Susan Bones and her family that I have seen on some of these posts that I beleive are wrong.......... It's WASN'T Susan's parents that were killed by members of the DE, it was..... page 550 (US edition) of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.... 'Susan Bones, who had an uncle, aunt, and cousins who had all died at the hands of one of the ten, said miserably during Herbology that she now had a good idea what it felt like to be Harry......' Please correct me if I'm wrong that there is somewhere written that Susan also lost her parents and on what page and in what book, because I can't think of it being written anywhere..... lynn :o) From jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com Sun Oct 19 23:24:29 2003 From: jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com (lynnfaragher78) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:24:29 -0000 Subject: Dobby and Harry.....just something that has been driving me CRAZY lol Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83153 I was wondering about something.....well it has been driving me crazy..........In SS/PS how was it that Dobby had Harry's letters from his friends.....I thought that letter carriers (owls) deliver just to whom the letter is intended for....How did Dobby do this???? Please if anyone knows the answer to this or was wondering about this also let me know..... Lynn :o) From rredordead at aol.com Sun Oct 19 23:55:21 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:55:21 -0000 Subject: Dobby and Harry.....just something that has been driving me CRAZY lol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83154 lynn wrote: I was wondering about something.....well it has been driving me crazy..........In SS/PS how was it that Dobby had Harry's letters from his friends.....I thought that letter carriers (owls) deliver just to whom the letter is intended for....How did Dobby do this???? Now Me: I think it's an example of just how powerfully magical Elves are. Dobby had to either have been inside Privet Dr. previously, many times, to steal the letters or intercept the Owl delivering the letter and bewitch the owl into believing he had made his delivery successfully. Both methods indicate the use of sophisticated magic. Mandy From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Oct 20 00:07:35 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:07:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] regarding: Susan Bones..... Message-ID: <131.256dff0a.2cc48147@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83155 In a message dated 10/19/2003 6:23:58 PM Central Standard Time, jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com writes: > Please correct me if I'm wrong that there is somewhere written that > Susan also lost her parents and on what page and in what book, > because I can't think of it being written anywhere..... > > lynn :o) > > It wasn't in one of the books. It was in an interview JKR gave. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From o_caipora at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 00:14:29 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:14:29 -0000 Subject: Copyright and Rita Skeeter ( WAS: Re: Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83156 "sbursztynski" wrote: > You at least have to give permission for a reprint. [...] > I'd still be mad as hell if > someone reprinted without my permission *and* made money on the deal! Based on my limited RL experience - only once has anything I've written been printed in a vehicle with a circulation over a million - when you write you sell the copyright. Then they do with it what they will. I've seen things of mine on the Internet, presumably with permission of they copyright owner, who didn't ask my approval. Here's something by Orson Scott Card on copyright. Note what he has to say about "work for hire". Sometimes to get their work recorded, musicians have to sign away the copyright: http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2003-09-07-1.html The Skeeter/Lovegood/Prophet arrangement seems perfectly normal. - Caipora From rredordead at aol.com Mon Oct 20 00:21:58 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:21:58 -0000 Subject: a question about exams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83157 Laura wrote: In OoP we saw what O.W.L.s are like. Is this comparable to the exams English kids take in the RW? That is, the WW exams had essay and, where relevant, practical components, but were not standardized multiple choice or other non-essay formats. College entry exams here, are exactly that, although the SATs will soon be moving to an essay structure. And would we expect N.E.W.T.s to be the same sort of setup as O.W.L.s? Now me: Yes. When JKR was in school in the 70's and I was in school in the 80's we sat our Ordinary Level or 'O' Level Examinations at 15/16. The average student about 5-8 exams in different subjects (always English, Maths, a Science, History or Geography plus your choice of other subjects). They were always in essay format with some subjects having a practical exam as well: like French, Latin, Art, Chemistry etc. After 16 schooling is optional. So you can see it wasn't odd that the Weasley twins choose to leave it was the way they did it. If you choose to stay at 17/18 you sat your Advanced or 'A' Level exams, which determine university entry. Again the average student sat 2 `A' Levels in the subjects of your choice. As you can imagine these 2 subjects were very detailed and extensively studied and you were expected to know what you wanted to study at university by the age of 16. British 18 year olds left Secondary (High) school with the American equivalent of 2 years of university education. Multiple-choice exams were looked upon with distain and as being 'easy' as the answer is written in front of you. However, that has all changed now and some younger HP fan might want to explain the modern exam system. For a great explanation on RW equivalent schools and exams go to the Lexicon and read the essay 'British Schooling in the 1970's' by Diana Summers Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Mon Oct 20 00:35:09 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:35:09 -0000 Subject: Essence Divided (WAS: Kreature/Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83158 AStrid said: The comment sounds very much like a reference to that strange mystical poem of Shakespeare?s ?Let the bird of loudest lay? also known as ?The Phoenix and the Turtle. The concepts of essence and division are central to the poem as a whole. One verse goes: So they loved as love in twain, Had the essence but in one, Two distincts, division none: Number there in love was slain. Sidney said: Astrid, that is an AWESOME catch! To really get into this discussion, here is the full text of the mysterious poem with some explanatory notes: http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1850.html Now me: I second that! Interesting connection, I'm intrigued. We know JKR is a fan of Shakespeare's, after all she has resurrected the names Hermione and Dorcus. Both form The Winter's Tale, as I'm sure you know, and I've been thinking about the relevance of that connection for a while. I certainly believe that Rowling has set up a devastating love triangle between Harry, Hermione and Ron like the one in The Winter's Tale which I have mentioned in other posts. Haven't come up with a Dorcus connection yet.... Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Mon Oct 20 00:41:43 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:41:43 -0000 Subject: "Severus" trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > > > > So we have Severus Snape and Albus Dumbledore - who is Niger? > > Sirius BLACK. Or Bellatrix Black??? From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Mon Oct 20 00:51:22 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:51:22 +1000 Subject: Name Dorcas [was Re: Essence Divided] References: Message-ID: <01a401c396a4$48e29e40$66984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 83161 Haven't come up with a Dorcus connection yet.... Mandy Hi Mandy Had several 'bouncing' problems a while back so I don't know if this has been covered before, and I can't make any connections with it but for interest's sake Dorcas is from Greek, meaning Gazelle. Dorcas was also in the New Testament (sometimes called Tabitha) - a charitable woman of Joppa raised from the dead by St Peter (Acts 9: 36-41)... Nox From rredordead at aol.com Mon Oct 20 00:53:17 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:53:17 -0000 Subject: Some "Lucius" triva. Was "Severus" trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83162 Neith said: AFAIK, it has not been covered. However, it has been discussed that there was a Roman Emperor, called Septimius Severus (Third Century AD), from whom Snape's first name could have been taken. If I'm not mistaken, he had even a strongest link with Britain, as he died at Evoracum (nowadays, York). He came into power by fighting and winning the other two contendants, Albus and Niger (white and black, by the way...) Now me: Also Lucius Artorius Castus was a Roman commander stationed in Britain in 194 AD. This is also when the first appearance of the name, Artorius appears in history and some believe is the basis for the Arthurian legend. Interesting when you consider Lucius Malfoy and Arthur Weasley's enmity. Mandy From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Oct 20 00:59:53 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:59:53 -0000 Subject: "Severus" trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83163 -In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: SNIP> > > "So we have Severus Snape and Albus Dumbledore - who is Niger?" --In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" < catlady at w...> wrote: "Sirius BLACK." --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: "Or Bellatrix Black???" ----Now me: Predating these Blacks, is Phineas Nigellus. (Nigellus, a funny little play on the words niger [latin for black, dark colored] and Aspergillus, of which, Aspergillus niger is the type species for this genus of mold. Sorry, my microbiology lore crops up again.) Arya From amani at charter.net Mon Oct 20 01:18:41 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:18:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] regarding: Susan Bones..... References: <131.256dff0a.2cc48147@aol.com> Message-ID: <006001c396a8$2392c800$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83164 In a message dated 10/19/2003 6:23:58 PM Central Standard Time, jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com writes: > Please correct me if I'm wrong that there is somewhere written that > Susan also lost her parents and on what page and in what book, > because I can't think of it being written anywhere..... > > lynn :o) Meliss9900 at aol.com: It wasn't in one of the books. It was in an interview JKR gave. Taryn: Actually, JKR said that Susan Bones' GRANDparents had been killed by Voldemort. There is a girl named Susan Bones who was sorted in the first book, and there was a family called the Bones that Voldemort tried to destroy. Is this a coincidence, or will Harry meet her in future books? Susan Bones's grandparents were killed by Voldemort! http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-livechat-barnesnoble.html ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grannybat at hotmail.com Mon Oct 20 01:25:31 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 01:25:31 -0000 Subject: Snape Has Left Him Forever? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83165 Sydney wrote, appended to his thoughts on Essence Divided: > > This is all assuming that VM is not referring to Snape in [GoF > > Chap 33 UKPB page565.] 'And here we have six missing Death > > Eaters. . . three dead in my service. One, too > > cowardly to return . . . he will pay. One, who I believe > > has left me for ever. . . he will be killed, of course . . . > > Actually, Rowling has confirmed that the 'one who left forever' was > Snape, in an untranscripted book signing Q&A in Vancouver a couple > of years ago. Whoa! This is the first I've ever heard of such a confirmation. If there's no transcript, could you point me to the post that originally offered this information, or any other source material? For Obsessive!Snapefans, that's more than just a trivial tidbit. Grannybat From grannybat at hotmail.com Mon Oct 20 02:14:04 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 02:14:04 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83166 June joshed: > >> > > A: I have a very good reason for not telling you -- the movie > script writer > > wants me to give him that information for the film. But I can say > that the > > 12th use is oven cleaner. > > > > ~Amanda, L.O.O.N. > > Suggestions: > > 1. An excellent (though intense) haemorrhoid preparation > 2. Fantastic in certain "wild" cocktails > 3. Brilliant in stir-fry. > > And apologies for levity. Anyone else? Charlie Weasley's handling of the dragons for the Triwizard Tournement demonstrates the beasts' resistance to magical attack. Given that knocking out a single dragon requires stunning spells cast by half a dozen full-grown wizards...perhaps dragon's blood is an essential ingredient in the most powerful protective spells. Flitwick describes the Fidelius Charm as "immensely complex." Could part of that complexity be the need for many fields of magical expertise on the part of the spellcaster(s)? Any liquid corrosive enough to be used as an oven cleaner would require buffering agents to keep the chemical from burning through human skin (assuming the chemical must be applied to the subject's body). Who better to handle a case of dangerous organic chemistry than a Potions Master? Who better to supply fresh dragon's blood than an animal handler with a passion for "interestin' creatures?" Who better to integrate all the elements of this complex spell than the professor who teaches Charms? And who better to orchestrate the timing and the subjects to be protected than the leader of the OoP? Dragon's Blood as Protective Ingredient would neatly tie together Snape's and Hagrid's post-Hogwarts involvement with the Potters, and would help explain why Hagrid was so adamant in telling Harry that Snape would never steal the Philosopher's Stone. (Dumbledore had already trusted him with helping to protect something more precious than Flamel's work, after all.) DBPI (hmm, gotta work on a real acronym) may even fit the recent theory that Harry's scar originally signified a protection rune drawn on his skin. Certainly that bit of info would fit with JKR's secrecy. Grannybat From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 20 03:33:40 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 03:33:40 +0000 Subject: Ron, Luna, and Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83167 "Donna" (deemarie1a at yahoo.com) said regarding Hermione's dislike for Luna: >Second reason, Luna is infatuated with Ron. At my first reading or >OotP, I had thought that Luna was put in the book for Harry to have >an eventual relationship. But when I reread the book, Luna seems to >have a thing for Ron. She pointedly said good luck to Ron before his >first quidditch match. I cannot find the reference just now, but at >one point, Luna significantly mentions Ron and Hermione is very >annoyed. That struck me as jealousy on Hermione's part. I think you are right. I think "what goes around comes around" and that Hermione is about to get a taste of what she gave Ron all through *Goblet of Fire.* Luna definitely likes Ron and shows it; Ron isn't the kind to care that she's a little eccentric; and her family lives relatively close to hers. If the two become an item (even temporarily) or even if Hermione just thinks they're an item, it may cause her to make up her mind about her feelings toward Ron, and maybe teach her some empathy as well (a characteristic which she is seriously lacking in my opinion). Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. https://broadband.msn.com From yswahl at stis.net Mon Oct 20 04:07:33 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 04:07:33 -0000 Subject: Is the Homorphus Charm performed on Harry by Gideroy legit ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83168 First off, I just posted my brief off topic satire THE POLITICALLY CORRECT HARRY POTTER which can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/18850 all comments positively or not would be greatly appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------ Now for the question at hand - on pages 161-162 of COS, Gilderoy Lockhart performs a demo on Harry before the DADA class of the Homorphus charm he allegedly did in defeating the Wagga Wagga werewolf. Gilderoy does say that "another village will remember me forever as the hero who delivered them from the monthly terror of werewolf attacks" implying that he did it (or lied about it) more than once. Any thoughts as to whether this spell is bogus or legit ? thanks Samnanya From sydpad at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 04:12:16 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 04:12:16 -0000 Subject: Snape Has Left Him Forever? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83169 Granny bat wrote: > Whoa! > > This is the first I've ever heard of such a confirmation. If there's > no transcript, could you point me to the post that originally offered > this information, or any other source material? > > For Obsessive!Snapefans, that's more than just a trivial tidbit. > > Grannybat Ah, I fully understand the earthshaking importance of such things, Grannybat! Just go to message no. 7901 (type it in the convenient message number box on the top right of the screen). Cheers, Syd From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Oct 20 05:09:27 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 05:09:27 -0000 Subject: Dobby and Harry.....just something that has been driving me CRAZY lol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83170 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lynnfaragher78" wrote: > I was wondering about something.....well it has been driving me > crazy..........In SS/PS how was it that Dobby had Harry's letters > from his friends.....I thought that letter carriers (owls) deliver > just to whom the letter is intended for....How did Dobby do this???? Little nitpick: This takes place in CoS. Anyway, we were shown in OoP that owls can be intercepted, e.g. Umbridge injuring Hedwig. Obviously, Dobby isn't quite so violent. He may have simply convinced the owls that he was working for Harry; I'd assume that families with house elfs would delegate the task of receiving mail to their servents and read it at their own convenience, rather than having owls interrupting meals, meetings, etc. I'm sure Errol would be easy to fool, and wouldn't put up much of a fight if a letter were taken from him physically. Also, we know Hermione doesn't own her own owl, so any bird she used would be unfamiliar with Harry's usual mail-accepting habits. -Corinth From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Oct 20 06:19:03 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 06:19:03 -0000 Subject: regarding: Susan Bones..... In-Reply-To: <006001c396a8$2392c800$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83171 --- "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > jamielynncarlson writes: > > > Please correct me if I'm wrong that there is somewhere written > > that Susan also lost her parents and on what page and in what > > book, because I can't think of it being written anywhere..... > > > > lynn :o) > > Meliss9900 at a...: > > It wasn't in one of the books. It was in an interview JKR gave. > > Taryn: > Actually, JKR said that Susan Bones' GRANDparents had been killed by Voldemort. > It was me that mentioned Susan Bones as a possible fatality in books 6 or 7. Not only is she in Dumbledore's Army, but some of her family (down to the children) were killed by DEs before. I stand corrected. Lynn was right to point out it was her uncle, aunt and cousins that were killed, not her parents. I suggested that the heir of Slytherin, LV, was wiping out the heirs of the other founders of Hogwarts (Harry targetted being Gryffindor's heir). Because Susan was sorted into Hufflepuff, I suggest this was the reason Uncle Edgar was killed and why Susan may be next as Hufflepuff's heir. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards-a-c.html Susan .... Joined the DA in October 1995 (OP16). Acquired a gruesome notoriety when the Death Eater who killed her uncle Edgar and his family escaped Azkaban in January 1996, after which she condoled with Harry, saying she now knew what he'd had to go through (OP25). One of the DA members who helped Harry cope with Malfoy in the ambush on the Hogwarts Express (OP38). Susan is most likely named after her Aunt Amelia, whose middle name is Susan (OP8). (Amelia was a judge during Harry's trial) Susan Bones was played in the first two films by the director's daughter, Eleanor Columbus (SS/f, CS/f). From JPWilko at jwilkinson18.freeserve.co.uk Sun Oct 19 21:26:42 2003 From: JPWilko at jwilkinson18.freeserve.co.uk (John) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:26:42 +0100 Subject: Harry dies!!! Message-ID: <001d01c39687$b1ad45a0$cd6509d4@John> No: HPFGUIDX 83172 May be Harry Potter dies, but in book 6 rather than book 7. Somehow Harry is in a fight with one of the death eaters and loses. But rather than death he becomes a 'vapour' just like Voldemort was in the first three books. As in the prophecy '.either must die at the hand.' it would imply that if someone else kill him, he doesn't die. JK has made many references to how Harry may not be alive after Hogwarts. She has been suggesting that Harry will die, but letting everyone believe it is at the final chapter of book 7. Other web sites have been saying in book 6 we go to the grave of Harry's parents. Dumbledore could re birth Harry, but in doing so sacrifice himself. Just a thought.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 20 09:53:23 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:53:23 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > > Suggestions: > > 1. An excellent (though intense) haemorrhoid preparation > 2. Fantastic in certain "wild" cocktails > 3. Brilliant in stir-fry. > > And apologies for levity. Anyone else? > 4. Gives an excellent patina when used to polish a wand 5. Muggle solvent 6. Flesh-eating slug repellant Kneasy From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Oct 20 11:09:31 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:09:31 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > 4. Gives an excellent patina when used to polish a wand > > 5. Muggle solvent Do you mean the disolving of muggles? I kind of hope so. > June From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 23:48:58 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:48:58 -0000 Subject: a question about exams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83175 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: Laura: > In OoP we saw what O.W.L.s are like. Is this comparable to the > exams English kids take in the RW? That is, the WW exams had essay > and, where relevant, practical components, but were not standardized > multiple choice or other non-essay formats. > College entry exams > here, are exactly that, although the SATs will soon be moving to an > essay structure. And would we expect N.E.W.T.s to be the same sort > of setup as O.W.L.s? > > I'm not entirely sure this is an appropriate list question, though, > so feel free to respond to me offlist if you'd rather. > > Thanks for your help- > > Laura (another ignorant American-sigh) Geoff: The OWLs of the wizarding world appear to be rather similar to the now obsolete English/Welsh GCE (General Certificate of Education) Ordinary Levels (O levels) which were usually taken by brighter pupils in Grammar Schools. The Hogwarts system does seem a little old- fashioned to me as an ex-teacher and has a bit of a late 1950s-early 1960s feel to it. The system was paralleled from about 1966 or thereabouts by the Certificate of Secondary Education (CSE) and the two merged into the GCSE about 1987 - this is not paralleled in the wizarding world. Standardised tests etc. have become increasingly a part of the system since then. The wizarding world's NEWTs obviously represent a higher grade; this is echoed in the English (& Welsh) GCE Advanced (or A) Levels which are more academic than O Levels or GCSE. If there is a link between A Levels and OWLs, then the OWLs will have a fair bit of written material plus practicals where relevant. (In Scotland the system is different but that's another question). Geoff From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 20 11:53:45 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:53:45 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: lots of snipping Nora: > Hermeneutics is not theorizing; it's interpretation. I don't like > try to construct large-scale theories that I can't link conclusively > to anything; being raised on the virtues of close-reading, that's > more of what I try to do. Kneasy: Monday morning is not my best time for nit-picking (much better on a Friday when I'm bloody-minded), so I'll waive the potential bun-fight of convoluted arguments regarding theorising and interpretation. Nora: > Well, yes, with the new revelation of information; but I didn't have > to scrap any elaborate theories of backstory because I don't try to > make them. I may have blank spots, but it's pretty clearly defined > where the information is missing. Of course, one is always subject > to overt reversal... > Kneasy: I posted a few weeks back lauding the masochistic joys of having a theory gel in your mind, slaving long hours over it, posting and watching a swarm of analytical piranha tear it to shreds. And then doing it all over again. (79637) Some may see this as a failure to learn from experience, but I don't. It's fun. Being wrong is not important to me; neither is being right. On site, anyway. Oh, I'll argue, debate, nit-pick and proffer the most disreputable of analyses in my defence of an interpretation, but if I can provoke a discussion (or even howls of outrage) then I don't consider that my time has been mis-spent. We are obviously of very different mind-sets, but it takes all sorts... Kneasy previously: > > Snape - master of his subject, diciplinarian, expects perfection. > > Treats students as he would adults. Nora: > I am glad that the qualifier "as *he* would adults" is put in there, > although even now I'm not so sure of it. I am under the impression > that he treats the children as he does at least partially because he > *can*, hence the oft-quoted "Snape is a sadistic teacher who abuses > his power." You don't treat adults like that. Kneasy: Oh, I don't know. In my professional life I've met a fair number of spectacularly rude and snotty people. Usually brought on by delusions of adequacy. However, I think Snape is more than competent and his attitudes and behaviour are consistent in the circumstances prevailing. What is causing all the comment is *why* is he like this? Is he just a nasty piece of work or are there events (childhood, schooldays or adult trauma) that have had a profound effect on his outlook on the WW? Nora: > Oh, I've never said that I don't think he's a wonderfully-done > character, or that he's not important to the plot, or all that. I > just think that as a character, he's severely morally lacking, and > I'm rather curious to find out what makes him tick. You know us > Kantians, we care an awful lot about motivation. I've also noted in > the past some extreme Snape-defense forces hovering around, ready to > expurgate any nasty features and cast them in as best of possible > light. Long live complexity! > Kneasy: Morality. Another can of worms not to be opened on a Monday. I'm encouraged that you're willing to admit to curiosity, maybe you too will wander into the morass that is site speculation. Snape-defence can cover an awfully wide spectrum of opinion. I won't defend any stance that presents him as admirable. He's not. But I do have a sneaking regard for a person so unrepentantly unpleasant. It must have taken a lot of practice in front of the mirror. Does he have a soft spot? Maybe he wears fluffy slippers. Nora: > As a pendant to some other discussions that have been going on; I > think the omission of an overt presentation of ethics is partly that > it's hard to present ethics directly in a novel without being > preachy, but more seriously, that a subtle argument is being made > that the ethics of the WW are seriously flawed. I've long waved the > flag for a kind of 'cultural sickness' in this society, and I think > the erratic ethical patterns are a sign of it. I forget who (please > forgive!) just recently also argued that it's related to a lack of > conception of individual rights, and that rings well for me. I think > (to dip Ever So Slightly into speculation) that we're being set up > for some serious societal upheaval. But I could well be wrong. :) Kneasy: I think the WW is a reflection of our world. Hypocrisy rampant, ethics and morals flourished but largely ignored when they become inconvenient or possibly unprofitable. As to the future of their society, well, JKR is a moral person so perhaps she'll come up with a satisfying resolution. But it's rare, even in fiction for the fate of one person, in this case Harry, to determine the future path of an entire society. Even an incorrigible theorist like myself is stymied on this one. Perhaps you'd like to step into the breach. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 20 11:58:02 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:58:02 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > > 4. Gives an excellent patina when used to polish a wand > > > > 5. Muggle solvent > > Do you mean the disolving of muggles? I kind of hope so. > > > June Of course I do! I have a perverted mind. After a fun night out the DE Supremacy Squad would need to get rid of the evidence. Bodies make the place look so untidy. Kneasy From jamess at climax.co.uk Mon Oct 20 13:14:26 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:14:26 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ponderables... Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301A96B2B@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 83178 Deedee: > 2. If only the heir of Slytherin could open the chamber of secrets > how was Harry able to open the Chamber of Secrets??!? > Geoff: In COS, where Harry meets up with Tom Riddle in the Chamber, TR tells him that Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber...... James: I've seen this heir of Slytherin subject discussed a few times and I think a possibility has been missed. My suspicion is that when Slytherin said that only his true heir could open it he might have meant any parcelmouth who wanted to kill mugleborns. Slytherin may well have put the parceltonge lock onto the chamber as a pure security measure to ensure only he could open it (considering the rarity of the trait this would not be unreasonable). When he left hogwarts he left behind the legend we all know thereby polarizing the kind of people who would go looking into two groups. Good wizards who would want to destroy the monster and Dark Wizards who would want to use it. Because the parceltonge trait seems to only occur in Dark wizards this means SS knows exactly the kind of person who is actually going to eventually open it. Under these circumstances Slytherin may have been working under the logic that whoever eventually found and opened the chamber would be his ideological heir (even if not necessarily genetically speaking). From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 13:30:01 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:30:01 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > Kneasy: I for one refuse point blank to embrace workmates, neighbours or indeed any other part of the human race with which I do not have close emotional ties at the behest of a self-selected group of patronising, simplistic, 'lets all love one another'mental and social gauleiters. I submit that Snape would agree. Laura: Are you talking literally or metaphorically? If the former, there's just not a lot of touch-feely stuff going on in the Potterverse at all, as we've noted before on this list. An occasional well-placed hug might have done wonders for certain characters. I always feel a twinge of sadness that Harry and Sirius never really hugged each other-all that British stoicism and male machismo interfered too much. But as for Snape, well, no one would dare cross his physical boundaries. If you're talking metaphorically, again, I don't see evidence of that attitude in the Potterverse. There's a formality in the culture that is quite unlike, say, American attitudes. (I think we could use a bit more of that, actually.) But Snape is just a miserable misanthrope. You never see him engaging in casual conversation with anyone at the staff table at meals or hanging out in the staffroom. He communicates what he has to when he has to and that's it. We know that Sirius (oh, stop grinding your teeth, Kneasy) refers to a gang of Slytherins with whom Snape hung out. But we don't know what kind of relationship this was-was it really friendship or just a common interest in nastiness and intimidation (the Slytherin house hobbies)? So I'm not sure that we have any canon at all for Snape ever having had what we could define as a friendship. My point was that it's unreasonable of Snape to use his personal losses as his excuse for his unkindness to students, since lots of other people suffered what he did and more and seem to be able to form human connections. He was just always like that and if he wants to blame it on LV, fine, but I'm not buying. Kneasy: My contention is that he has been in a normal (or close to normal) relationship and that this was destroyed by, or at the instigation of, Voldemort and that Snape is now taking the position of 'once burned, twice shy.'(Doesn't this just tug at the heartstrings?) Laura responds: Ah...but who do you think was the lucky lady? Come on, Kneasy, give us some hermeneutical exegesis here. (I love it when listess talk philosophy...*grin*) > > > > Laura: > > Sure, but what I'm asking is what happens after the catharsis you say he needs. > > Kneasy: > We won't know. I'm betting that he won't survive. I'm not sure he wants to. Once his aim has been achieved (even if he gets that far), what else is left for him? > Laura responds: Yes, I have to agree, sadly. And although it's painful to think of Snape's joyless life, the reality is that it happens sometimes. We've all known people who were angry and bitter all their lives and died in the same state. if Snape gets his revenge, he'll be angry and bitter when he dies, but satisfied. > Kneasy: > Did Snape know that he was going into danger? No. > Did Sirius know that Snape was going into danger? Yes. > Who bears the responsibility? Sirius. > Wouldn't *you* say that Sirius had a moral responsibility to Snape? > Or have I misunderstood your ethics? > > Sure, Snape was eager, but to do what? What had he been told? > What was it he suspected or surmised that he would find? > Just what had Sirius said to him? "Go in there and you'll get the true lowdown on the Gang?" Hardly. > Laura responds: Do you really think that Snape had no theory at all about what was going on with Remus? He had had at least 5 years, maybe 6, by this time to watch the goings-on, and he was no fool. Every full moon Remus disappears for a night? Hmm, wonder what that could mean? I think he had a very strong suspicion about Remus's secret. Yes, Sirius knew he was suggesting something dangerous-not smart. Did he think Snape would be stupid enough to do what he had suggested? He probably didn't care one way or the other-again, not smart. Yes, Sirius bears some moral responsibility here. But Snape was entirely capable of judging for himself the motives behind Siriius's advice to him. Ultimately our actions are our own responsibility, wouldn't you agree? Snape wanted 2 things-to find out what Remus was doing every month and to get any information he could that would cause trouble for the Marauders. The prank was only to do with the former-we don't have any evidence that Snape knew about the monthly transformations. (See PoA p. 357 US) Sirius told Snape that he could get some information about Remus and Ssnape took him at his word. Would he have done the same thing if Sirius had offered him a drink or help with his homework? Of course not-he would have told Sirius to take a hike. Snape chose to let his desire for power over any of the Marauders guide him. A decision to act in a morally dubious way based on unreliable information...not smart and not good. Laura, who wonders why she even bothers to put her HPs back on the bookshelf when they inevitably end up next to the computer anyhow From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 13:33:54 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:33:54 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Does he [Snape]have a soft spot? Maybe he wears fluffy slippers. Laura: You're way out of the loop here, Kneasy. June and Sandy and I (along with others I can't remember) decided long ago that Snape's weakness was in the lingerie line...black silk, I believe? And a happy Monday morning to you too! *grinning snarkily* From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 14:32:14 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:32:14 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > > Kneasy: > > Did Snape know that he was going into danger? No. > > Did Sirius know that Snape was going into danger? Yes. > > Who bears the responsibility? Sirius. > > Wouldn't *you* say that Sirius had a moral responsibility to Snape? > > Or have I misunderstood your ethics? > > > > Sure, Snape was eager, but to do what? What had he been told? > > What was it he suspected or surmised that he would find? > > Just what had Sirius said to him? "Go in there and you'll get the > true lowdown on the Gang?" Hardly. > > > Laura responds: > Do you really think that Snape had no theory at all about what was > going on with Remus? He had had at least 5 years, maybe 6, by this > time to watch the goings-on, and he was no fool. Every full moon > Remus disappears for a night? Hmm, wonder what that could mean? I > think he had a very strong suspicion about Remus's secret. > Yes, Sirius knew he was suggesting something dangerous-not smart. > Did he think Snape would be stupid enough to do what he had > suggested? He probably didn't care one way or the other-again, not > smart. Yes, Sirius bears some moral responsibility here. But Snape > was entirely capable of judging for himself the motives behind > Siriius's advice to him. Ultimately our actions are our own > responsibility, wouldn't you agree? > Snape wanted 2 things-to find out what Remus was doing every month > and to get any information he could that would cause trouble for the > Marauders. After OoP, we now have reason to suspect Snape probably suspected Lupin of being a werewolf. The one question we know was on the DADA OWL exam was about werewolves. Snape was presumably a good student, and if he watched the Marauders as closely as it appears, he had to have recognized Lupin for what he was - had so many clues. Sirius bears responsibility for putting Snape in danger, but perhaps even more responsibility for putting Lupin in danger from a knowledgeable Snape. Snape bears some responsibility of his own, since he had to know Sirius meant him no good. He might not have expected Sirius to put him in mortal danger, but 2 things come to play here. First, these wizards do so many dangerous things already, so Sirius may not have considered Snape to really be in that much danger. Second, Snape had to know Sirius was at least trying to cause trouble. From tjlake18 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 01:17:03 2003 From: tjlake18 at yahoo.com (Tasha) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 01:17:03 -0000 Subject: Dobby and Harry.....just something that has been driving me CRAZY lol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lynnfaragher78" wrote: > I was wondering about something.....well it has been driving me > crazy..........In SS/PS how was it that Dobby had Harry's letters > from his friends.....I thought that letter carriers (owls) deliver > just to whom the letter is intended for....How did Dobby do this???? > > Please if anyone knows the answer to this or was wondering about > this also let me know..... > > Lynn :o) I have been wondering about something on the same level... my question is wheredoes Dobby hear so many good things about Harry? He says, ``Dobby had heard of your greatness, sir, but not your goodness...??(p 15 of British verion) Now I know he does not hear this from the Malfoy?s. Also it seems that Dobby knows of Harry?s importance to the WW. `` Harry Potter must stay where he is safe. He is to great, to good, to lose.. Dobby has known it for months, sir. Harry Potter must not put himself in peril. He is too important, sir.??(p 17 British version). So what does Dobby know? Also in POA when they are at the welcoming feast they sing the school song and Dumbledore says...ahh, music, a magic far greater than all we do here at Hogwarts..sorry not correct canon but it is along those lines... I was wondering if this means something! Let me know what you all think! Tasha From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 04:37:24 2003 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 04:37:24 -0000 Subject: regarding: Susan Bones..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lynnfaragher78" wrote: > Hi :o) I just wanted to clarify something about Susan Bones and her > family that I have seen on some of these posts that I beleive are > wrong.......... > > It's WASN'T Susan's parents that were killed by members of the DE, > it was..... > Please correct me if I'm wrong that there is somewhere written that > Susan also lost her parents and on what page and in what book, > because I can't think of it being written anywhere..... > > lynn :o) ALSO: page 174 (US edition) Moody is showing Harry the photo from the first days of the Order "That's Edgar Bones. . . brother of Amelia Bones, they got him and his family too, he was a great wizard." At first I thought this meant Susan's parents but then we read: > page 550 (US edition) of Harry Potter and the Order of the > Phoenix.... > 'Susan Bones, who had an uncle, aunt, and cousins who had all died > at the hands of one of the ten, said miserably during Herbology > that she now had a good idea what it felt like to be Harry......' So, apparently the Bones family had more than two siblings. Susan's Aunt Amelia is in the ministry, and it was a different aunt, with uncle and cousins who were murdered. HedwigsTalons Keep an eye on Susan! From sandrranch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 05:30:03 2003 From: sandrranch at yahoo.com (S & R Ranch) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 05:30:03 -0000 Subject: House Elves Freedom....& MORE....! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83184 If House Elves cook & clean then I would assume they also do the laundry. So one would also assume that the act of handling clothes while doing their duties would also not free them in anyway. I believe they refused to clean the common room because they were insulted that someone left clothes around thinking that they would take it as a chance to leave. Their loyalty to Dumbledore, Hogwarts, the staff and students was being insulted as well as them seeing this as a lack of appreciation for the services they provided to the school and students. I think they saw it as someone saying that they (and their hard work) were not appreciated. I also wonder why not one thought of asking one of the house elves if they could take Ron's dress robes and see if they could not only clean and dye them, but make them look more like the current fashion. Does anyone have any theorys as to where Mr. & Mrs. Weasley were and why they did not come to the rescue at the MOM? From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 08:16:15 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 01:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Elves' Magic and Possible Involvement with LV Message-ID: <20031020081615.45842.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83185 Subject:Date: 20October2003 Grey Wolf wrote: "...Notice that she (Winky) constantly wonders what will happen to Crouch Sr. now that she's not there to take care of him. ..." Granny responds: My goodness, this is an interesting point. If memory serves me correctly, Crouch Sr. is dead isn't he? Crouch Jr. confesses the murder of his father, turning him into a bone, and burying him. Isn't Winky aware of this fact? If so, her depression could actually be grief along with guilt. If not, it's reasonable to assume that she is continuing to worry about Crouch, Sr. Whichever, IMHO we have not seen the last of this issue. Granny --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From astrid at netspace.net.au Mon Oct 20 12:02:39 2003 From: astrid at netspace.net.au (Astrid Wootton) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:02:39 +1000 Subject: Essence Divided Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83186 Sydney: To really get into this discussion, here is the full text of the mysterious poem with some explanatory notes: http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem1850.html Astrid: Thanks for giving the reference so that those who are interested can look at the whole text. Mandy We know JKR is a fan of Shakespeare's, after all she has resurrected the names Hermione and Dorcus. Both from The Winter's Tale, as I'm sure you know, and I've been thinking about the relevance of that connection for a while. I certainly believe that Rowling has set up a devastating love triangle between Harry, Hermione and Ron like the one in The Winter's Tale which I have mentioned in other posts. Astrid: Yes, I read with interest some of your comments on The Winter?s Tale a few days ago. Among other images the petrified Hermione (CoS) echoes the statue of Hermione (Winter?s Tale) coming back to life ? ?Oh, she?s warm!? Catlady: Astrid: First, the poem is not about being in love, (more below) but Love is the power the Dark Lord knows not, (OoP UKHB page743) and which he despises and? has always, therefore, underestimated to his cost. (OoP UKHC page 136). So the power of Love is central to the mystery of the Prophecy and the nature of the relationship that exists between Harry and LV. How might this poem shed any light on this relationship? Second. The Phoenix and the Turtle(dove) offers a paradigm of Shakespeare?s obsession with the idea of two-in-one, of doubles, of relations between substance and shadow. Hence the essence of a separate person is ?appalled? by the conundrum presented by distinct yet undivided persons: the*selfsame* is split > ??the self was not the same > Single nature?s double name > Neither two nor one was called.? But enough of the poem. The HP text is not an illustration of a 16th century text, although it may be dealing here with a related complexity What we are dealing with is something more complex than possession (see Moody OoP UKHC page 434 and Ginny OoP UKHC page 441/442); more subtle than mind reading (see Snape OoP UKHC page468). LV can lie curled as a dormant snake ready to strike within Harry (DD OoP UKHC pages 729/730). But when he attempts full possession the Love that infuses Harry?s nature is quite inimical to LV, and he has to vacate Harry?s being as an environment too hostile to be borne. Finally, I?m interested in how the power of Love (Harry?s greatest strength) might eventually defeat LV. Any ideas, anyone? anyone? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Mon Oct 20 12:08:49 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:08:49 +0200 Subject: Wizarding numbers and equality of opportunity Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031020140831.02788e80@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83187 Robert Shaw wrote: >Nor is equality of opportunity necessarily connected with birth rate. >For muggles bringing up a large family was a full time job, because >of the sheer drudgery involved. Magic makes it much easier, house >elves more so. > >Elfrida could have had twelve children but no husband, and still done >her job well, unlike any muggle of her time. > >This means that for wizards, there is no conflict between large >families and feminine equality. Your conclusion doesn't follow, unless you assume that all witches have a nanny or two (or a house-husband...). We do have a few child-raising references in canon, at the QWC; they do not hint at nannies of any species or any spell-based ersatz-mothering (and these people could afford the tickets, so they aren't to poor to have it, unlike the Weasleys). Raising children takes time away from everything else. If Elfrida had twelve children while managing to do her job well, then she most certainly didn't raise the children on her own. Magic could well make things more difficult, and a good example is the kid at the QWC that borrows his father's wand ("You bust slug! You bust slug!"). Since allocation of time is the relevant mechanism, there will be a strong negative correlation between actual feminine equality and number of children, regardless of how equal the opportunities are. It stands to reason that witches can use contraceptive and conceptive magic to only have wanted pregnancies (who would stop them?). They also have options other than becoming house-wives. Given the effects of this in the RW, I don't see how it would be otherwise in the WW. To be fair, witches live longer, so they can launch their careers when the children have left for Hogwarts. But lacking years of experience compared to wizards, witches will most likely be runners-up for any available position, unless child-raising counts as relevant experience, but i don't see the WW being that civilized. / Mikael From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Mon Oct 20 12:09:21 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:09:21 +0200 Subject: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031020140901.0278d460@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83188 To summarize my findings below: - About 30 percent of Hogwarts students are muggle-borns - No more than half of the 11-17 years old wizard-borns in the British isles attend Hogwarts - The wizarding population is about 24 000 (bounded at 20-30 000) Robert Shaw wrote: >True, but to extrapolate the wizarding population from Hogwarts >without assuming (in the absence of good evidence) that structure to >be invariant, you do need to known what the population structure is. Not completely. We need to know if the yearlings born between, say, 1975 and 1985 deviate from the mean yearling fraction of the total population, and if so, in what direction. Given that Voldemort's reign of terror has effects comparable to WWII, I'd expect Hogwarts to be relatively underpopulated in Harry's first and second year (because comparatively few children would have been born during the bad years), but becoming progressively crowded from Harry's third year onwards (baby-boom starting nine months after Voldemort's fall). It's not unreasonable to assume that the under-represented years and the over-represented years average out to something pretty close to the yearling mean fraction. Even if it would deviate from the mean, i don't think it would matter much, because that error would pale in significance compared to the problems of establishing Hogwarts attendance, which might conceivably vary from 100% (every wizarding child attends Hogwarts) to 5 % (only a chosen few needs a degree in witchcraft and wizardry). Interestingly enough, the fraction of muggle-borns would put a cap on maximum theoretical attendance. We know that 25 % of the wizarding population is muggle-born. But how big a fraction of Hogwarts students is muggle-born? Erring on the side of caution, I'd say it's maximally 31%, probably less. How can I say that? We can calculate this if we know the age distribution of muggle-born wizards, which in turn would have to be inferred from historical data on live births and assumptions of die-off in the wizarding world. UK census web site has a data on live births going back 1838, and I used a fairly simple die-off function (I'm not good enough at maths or demographics to manage anything more complicated; I'm a *sociologist* for crying out loud): 20% of the wizards born between 0 and 100 years ago are dead (die-off for each year increases linearly by 0,2 % per year of age up to 100), and almost 80% of wizards born between 101 and 164 years ago are dead (die-off increases linearly from 20%+1,26% per year of age from 101 up to 164). This probably exaggerates the number of deaths in wizarding middle-age, and thus the ratio of 11-17 year-olds (mean fraction of total pop within the 11-17 age group compared to mean fraction of pop for every year). This model gives a life expectancy of 124 years and a mean age of 67. Incidentally, this means that 11-17 year-olds constitute 5,3% of the muggle-borns, basically equal to the guesstimate 5 % touted by Ffred. I was a bit surprised that the model put the fraction of muggle-borns for Hogwarts students at only 31%, since I expected it to be higher (continued population increase and all), but i didn't reckon with the effect of the enormous numbers of births from the 1870s to WWI, or the declining birth rates for the last 30 years. So, if about 30 % of Hogwarts students are muggle-borns (e.g. 300 people) and they constitute 5,3% of the muggle-born wizard population, then the muggle-borns should number slightly less than 6 000. Given that muggle-borns constitute 25 % of the wizarding population (purportedly a JKR fact), wizard-borns would number about 18 000. If wizard-borns have about the same age structure as muggle-borns (a constant birth rate for wizard-borns in the die-off model makes 11-17 year-olds 5,8% of the wizard-born pop), and about half are half-bloods, the 11-17 year-old pure-bloods should be *at least* 7,5 % of the wizard-born population, or 1 350 wizard-borns aged 11-17, of which roughly half thus attends Hogwarts. Feel free to poke holes in my reasoning. I'm not entirely convinced that my attempt holds up to scrutiny, but i don't think i made any glaring errors. >As an aside, much of that increase is actually due to immigration. >How do wizards deal with that? > >The Hogwarts' quill records the names of wizards born within range, >but Indian muggle-borns whose parents have just immigrated will not >be listed. And will thus not get a magical education nor become wizards. Hence they won't affect the wizarding population. >English muggle-borns whose families emigrate to the US when they're >five will cause similar problems If the US wizards use a similar system they won't get an education there either. >Does the Ministry hunt down immigrant muggle-borns, and notify >other countries of emigrants, or do the muggle-borns in such families >slip through the cracks? Why would the MoM care about non-listed magical muggle-born children? If the Hogwarts quill don't register them, they don't exist. >If the ministry lost track of many muggle borns during the >mass muggle migrations of the last centuries this could have >a significant impact on wizarding demographics. Possibly. Migration don't affect the muggle population in any dramatic way, and given the rarity of magical births to muggles, the possible changes, in absolute numbers, to the wizarding population of a few years of abnormal fluctuations due to migration are entirely negligible. I claimed: > > Changes in muggle numbers have to be *huge* to affect the number of > > muggle-born wizards. Robert Shaw replied >The change may be huge, but since the muggle population is also >huge this cancels out. > >A 5% change in muggle numbers will produce a 5% change in >muggle-born numbers, to a first approximation. To take Robert's last point first, a 5% change in muggle numbers will produce a comparably *smaller* change in the numbers of muggle-borns, given the longevity of wizards, muggle-born or otherwise. As to the first point, I need to clarify myself. I *should have* said "Changes in muggle numbers have to be really, really huge to affect the number of *wizards*" (i.e. not only muggle-born wizards. This makes a difference, see below. > >If we ignore post-OWL dropouts, then 36 > > muggle-borns enter Hogwarts per year (in present years), if 25 % of > > students are muggle-borns. > >So, e.g, a 5% increase in the muggle population means 2 extra >muggle borns, and the percentage increases to 26%. A 15% >increase would push the percentage to 28% and so on >(though its not actually proportional) But 14 (2 per year) extra muggle-borns mean next to nothing in terms of the entire wizarding population, and not much even to the Hogwarts population; it's an increase by 1,4% in 7 years. Also, if we take into account that a change in muggle numbers is at least a third smaller for the muggle-borns, it only adds one muggle-born per year. Conversely, the same logic goes for reductions in muggle birth rates. Robert, replying to me; > > If you don't accept a fairly stable wizarding population, you'll have > > to posit that they have had periods of low mortality and high > > fertility followed either by cataclysmic extermination events or > > equal periods of population decline. I think you'll have trouble > > finding causes for such changes. > >The problem is that we know the muggle population has had >major fluctations, which must have some impact on the >wizarding population. Yes, but every change in muggle numbers goes through two reduction-filters. 1) Muggle-borns live vastly longer than muggles, so effect of changes are reduced. 2) Effects are reduced even more due to the fact that muggle-borns constitute only a minority of wizards. A 10-year freak birth dearth among muggles may give dramatic effects in muggle society, but is only a mild echo in the wizarding world. >I'll accept fairly stable, but not static, and you need static >to extrapolate from Hogwarts. I'm not after exact numbers, so "fairly stable" is enough for me. >Going by the student population of Hogwarts alone, we can deduce >the wizarding population with an error of perhaps plus or minus 50% >(not good enough to base any conclusions on) If we look at muggle birth numbers (actually, UK birth numbers) over the last hundred years, the *maximum* fluctuation for *any* consecutive seven-year period deviates from the mean by only 20 % (this including effects of migration, to boot). Assuming that wizard birth numbers vary as much, my estimate of wizarding numbers of about 24 000 is bounded at 20 or 30 000 (assuming my die-off model is reasonably accurate). Whew. If you managed to wade through this delusional demographic debate to the bitter end, you have my deepest respect. / Mikael From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Mon Oct 20 12:10:05 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:10:05 +0200 Subject: Catlady's thoughts on wizarding population Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031020140958.027887a0@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83189 Catlady wrote: >In my own theory, is only partly a matter of Muggle genetics >but also partly magical, with some deep magic causing that the number >of magic babies born equals the number of mages who die, so that >number of Muggle-born wizards has nothing to do with the number of >Muggle births, but only with the excess of wizard deaths over wizard >births. While this is certainly possible, I feel uneasy about such essentialistic mechanisms. How did this death-birth balancing act come about? Who or what instituted it? What maintains it? How did the initial population of wizards come into existence, if the number of wizards is fixed? I realize that I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that wizards are always are born to muggles in enough numbers to cover up any deficit of wizards due to more wizard deaths than wizard births? That would mean that the wizard population can't shrink. We'd get a population of wizards that becomes larger whenever the number of wizard births exceeds the wizard deaths, but never shrinks, because any deficit would be compensated with muggle-borns. Or do you mean that wizard births can never exceed the number of deaths, e.g. a wizard has to die before a new one is born? If so, then reincarnation could explain the effect you are describing. Of course, it leaves the small matter of how to explain how the initial wizards came about... >the wizarding folk have never, in the >last 3000 years, had a birth rate up to replacement level, because >many wizards and witches never bothered with marriage and/or >child-bearing at all. I agree with your explanation for a low fertility rate -- witches are surely in control of their own fertility -- but I don't think it can be below replacement level, and definitely not for millennia. If it was, how would the pure-bloods avoid ever-dwindling numbers when they can't marry muggles or half-bloods if they are to remain pure-blooded, and when every pure-blood that decides to marry a half-blood or a muggle further decimates their numbers? To be fair, new pure-blood lineages will come into existence, and if it only takes, say, four generations for a lineage to become pure-blood (e.g. Harry's children would be pure-bloods if he married a witch that was not muggle-born herself), the generation of new pure-bloods might compensate for the decreasing number of pure-bloods in every generation, depending on a) exactly how much below replacement level the pure-bloods' birth rates are and b) how large a fraction of pure-bloods that marry muggle-borns or half-bloods (sadly, I'm not good enough at demographic modelling to even try to determine this). Incidentally, there is a canon reference on the *upper* limit of generations needed to be considered pure-blood: Ernie MacMillan says that "you can trace my family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as pure as anyone's" (CoS, p. 150, UK pbk). To further compound the problem for the pure-bloods: once their numbers start to decrease, the rate of decrease will probably be accelerating. Diminishing numbers of pure-bloods make it harder for them to find an appropriate marriage partner, forcing the left-outs to either remain childless or have children with non-pure-bloods. The next generation will be even fewer (since we assume that birth rates are below replacement level) and thus sparser, making it even harder to find a suitable pure-blood partner but easier to find a suitable non-pure-blood partner, since the supply of potential non-pure-blood partners increases as the proportion of pure-blood wizards in the wizarding population decreases. So a larger fraction of the pure-bloods in this generation will choose non-pure-blood partner than the pure-bloods in the earlier generation did, causing a larger reduction in pure-blood births. Iterate until there are no more pure-bloods. A similar logic goes for the generation of new pure-blood lineages. While the proportion of pure-bloods is large, the probability that random pairings over X generations will produce pure-blood wizards is relatively large, but as pure-bloods become fewer, the probability of randomly produced pure-bloods decreases. Wow. That was long and convoluted. Anyway, to try to conclude this: if wizarding birth rates have been below replacement level for millennia, one needs to explain why there are still pure-bloods. / Mikael From lawtrainer at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 14:02:44 2003 From: lawtrainer at yahoo.com (Jana Fisher) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:02:44 -0000 Subject: Snape: Potions Master for 14 years Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83190 While rereading Oop last night, I came across the passage where Umbridge is inspecting Snape. She asks how long he has been teaching, and he replies almost 14 years (don't have the books at work, of course :(. Something clicked, and I remembered Dumbledore hired Trelawny after she made the prediction, 16 years ago, for protection. Could the same be said for Snape? If Harry is 15 and change in the book, and the attack took place when he was 18 mos old, does the time line fit? Snape saves Harry, then works at Hogwarts for protection from Lord Thingy? Just a thought Jana From beelissa at nycap.rr.com Mon Oct 20 15:45:16 2003 From: beelissa at nycap.rr.com (melissaworcester) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:45:16 -0000 Subject: Snape: Potions Master for 14 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jana Fisher" wrote: > If Harry is 15 and > change in the book, and the attack took place when he was 18 mos old, > does the time line fit? Snape saves Harry, then works at Hogwarts > for protection from Lord Thingy? I don't have the book in front of me either, but this triggered something that I've been pondering for some time. I'm on no mail on this list right now so I have no idea if you all have discussed it. It's part of Trelawney's prediction about Voldemort's servant going back to him, in PoA, I believe. Something about how the servant was "chained these twelve years" and how he will break free that night. I've wondered how exactly he got chained. I thought maybe Sirius did something before Pettigrew disappeared down the sewer, but the chance to learn about that seems to have fallen through the veil, unless Sirius left some written record of it, and that doesn't seem in character for him. But maybe Snape did something? Though you'd think if he had, he'd have recognized the rat when Ron came to Hogwarts. Melissa, coming out of lurkdome From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Oct 20 16:50:53 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:50:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's dragon blood & and the Eyes (Re: 12 uses for Dragons ....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" > Charlie Weasley's handling of the dragons for the Triwizard > Tournement demonstrates the beasts' resistance to magical attack. > Given that knocking out a single dragon requires stunning spells cast > by half a dozen full-grown wizards...perhaps dragon's blood is an > essential ingredient in the most powerful protective spells. > > Dragon's Blood as Protective Ingredient would neatly tie together > Snape's and Hagrid's post-Hogwarts involvement with the Potters, and > would help explain why Hagrid was so adamant in telling Harry that > Snape would never steal the Philosopher's Stone. (Dumbledore had > already trusted him with helping to protect something more precious than Flamel's work, after all.) Jen: I think you're on to something here. Here's a little canon: "Dragons are extremely difficult to slay, owing to the *ancient magic* that imbues their thick hides, which none but the most powerful spells can penetrate." (emphasis mine). (GOF, US, chap. 20, p. 338) You got me thinking about JKR, upset by a picture of Harry without his glasses, saying "don't they know that's his most vulnerable area?" (paraphrased). So he's vulnerable in the eyes like a dragon-- what if he actually has some dragon blood in him now or is protected by "essesnce of dragon blood"? It could help explain why nobody could stun or AK Harry at the graveyard. Perhaps it also explains the "gleam of triumph" in DD's eyes, because now DD knows where LV will be vulnerable as well. Then there's the whole deal about Lily and Harry's "green almond- shaped" eyes and the Common Welsh Green Dragon, when Lily is supposedly from Wales (or Godric's Hollow is in Wales, I forget which). Perhaps the Welsh Green was used in the "ancient magic" protective spell performed by DD, Snape and Hagrid? Hmmm...count me in on a TBAY for this one--very interesting. From lbiles at flash.net Mon Oct 20 17:50:18 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:50:18 -0000 Subject: Kreacher/Bellatrix (was: Kreature/Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Astrid Wootton wrote: > Kreature may play a larger role in Book 6. Now that Sirius is dead he can return to Narcissa Black, Lucius Malfoy?s wife, and the closest living member of the Black family. Kreature has very dangerous knowledge and may play a larger r?le in book 6. I still think that Kreacher is going to go to Bellatrix and not the Malfoys. She seems to be his favorite (her picture is prominent in his "den") and they seem to have a great degree of philosophical compatability. He couldn't go to her before because she was still in Azkaban. I also don't think his knowledge can be too damaging. He's constrained by the fidelius charm from giving away the location and what else could he tell them other than the order has reformed (common knowledge to the DEs), who is in the order (no one that is a surprise except Snape who is quite possibly a double agent anyway), and the fact that they have cleaned the house. I would like to assume -- a great danger I know -- that the Order at least had the foresight to keep Kreacher out of the highly top secret meetings. Of course Kreacher may have purchased his own set of extendable ears from the twins so who knows! leb From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 20 14:17:49 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:17:49 -0000 Subject: Ponderables... In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301A96B2B@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Sharman wrote: > Deedee: > > 2. If only the heir of Slytherin could open the chamber of secrets > > how was Harry able to open the Chamber of Secrets??!? > > > > Geoff: > In COS, where Harry meets up with Tom Riddle in the Chamber, TR tells > him that Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber...... > > James: > I've seen this heir of Slytherin subject discussed a few times and I think a > possibility has been missed. My suspicion is that when Slytherin said that > only his true heir could open it he might have meant any parcelmouth who > wanted to kill mugleborns. Geoff: but that still raises the point of Ginny opening the Chamber. She is not a Parseltongue speaker; it seems that Riddle must have had some sort of control over her.... "'Haven't you guessed yet, Harry Potter?' said Riddle softly. 'Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber of Secrets. She strangled the school roosters and daubed threatening messages on the walls. She set the serpent of Slytherin on four Mudbloods and the Squib's cat.' 'No,' Harry whispered. 'Yes', said Riddle, calmly, 'Of course, she didn't /know/ what she was doing at first.....'" Possibly an Imperius curse or something similar but that doesn't give the victim the ability to speak a language they don't know, i.e. Parseltongue.... Answers on a postcard..... From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sun Oct 19 15:23:00 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 10:23:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape: Potions Master for 14 years References: Message-ID: <003d01c39654$e337a580$b793aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83195 > Jana: > While rereading Oop last night, I came across the passage where > Umbridge is inspecting Snape. She asks how long he has been > teaching, and he replies almost 14 years (don't have the books at > work, of course :(. Something clicked, and I remembered Dumbledore > hired Trelawny after she made the prediction, 16 years ago, for > protection. Could the same be said for Snape? If Harry is 15 and > change in the book, and the attack took place when he was 18 mos old, > does the time line fit? Snape saves Harry, then works at Hogwarts > for protection from Lord Thingy? > > Just a thought Iggy: And a very good thought there... I think you may have hit on something there. (Especially since they spent some time evaluating the flashback scene in the first movie over on the movie list, and it was noted that an arm was in the scene that was wearing sleeves and such that mach Snape's clothing exactly. It was also cited that JKR had personally overseen the setup of that scene, so she MUST have had that in there for a reason...) Iggy McSnurd From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 18:25:17 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermionie and house elves Message-ID: <20031020182517.27036.qmail@web40018.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83196 20October2003 Laura wrote: "...I think that it is arrogant of Hermione to assume that she is the master of any house - elf, and has the right to assume such power over any sentient being. Although she is really the only character to be seen standing up for the elves, she is, in her own way, almost as bad as Lucius Malfoy, who thinks that Dobby has no mind of his own." Grey Wolf wrote: "...I certainly won't join the side of the first campaigner that comes by claiming that everyone must stop smoking and drinking for their own good. Hermione is doing precisly that, in the kitchen scene, with her half-cooked ideas.... HedwigsTalons wrote: Hermione is 14 in GOF, at 14 many children are idealists and "have all the answers to the world's problems She thinks her knitted items will free the elves, but in reality they only offend the elves, ...Hermione, who is usually so well-read on subjects, needs to find out EXACTLY how the giving of freedom to house elves works... Why in OOP is she no longer campaigning for S.P.E.W.? Now Paula: Thanks HedwigsTalons! Hermione is a kid and althought inately very intelligent, still sees the world through her own simple vision. What else can she do? How much life experience do most 15 year olds have? IMHO, she is only guilty of youthful enthusiasm, and drive which have overshadowed the need to" find out EXACTLY how the giving of freedom to house elves works." I totally disagree that "she is, in her own way, almost as bad as Lucius Malfoy..." There is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON between Lucius (or Draco for that matter). The Malfoys are the arrogant ones, thinking that their pure blood and money give them complete license to do and say as they wish. Hermione's probably not campaigning for SPEW in OOP for a few reasons: 1) Youthful enthusiam can fade as quickly as it came. 2) The turmoil caused by Umbridge has distracted everyone. 3) Hermione, true to form, is all consumed with revising for OWLS. In all honesty, I'd give anything if I could relly feel the ethusiasm and drive of youth again about anything instead of the discouragement and cynicism of middle age. Like Mark Twain said:''Too bad youth's wasted on the young." Seems like when wisdom and experience enter, enthusiasm goes out the door. So please, please, no more Hermione bashing! Paula "Griff" Gaon "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Mon Oct 20 17:05:22 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:05:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding numbers: 24 000 References: <6.0.0.22.0.20031020140901.0278d460@pop.bredband.net> Message-ID: <2a0601c3972d$efa2eb20$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83197 Mikael Raaterova wrote: > To summarize my findings below: > > - About 30 percent of Hogwarts students are muggle-borns > - No more than half of the 11-17 years old wizard-borns in the British > isles attend Hogwarts > - The wizarding population is about 24 000 (bounded at 20-30 000) > [Reasoning snipped] > > Feel free to poke holes in my reasoning. I'm not entirely convinced > that my attempt holds up to scrutiny, but i don't think i made any > glaring errors. > I'm a mathematician, not a sociologist, but your reasoning looks sound, given your assumptions. Having only 50% of wizard-borns at hogwarts is unexpected (which shows you haven't been fudging your numbers) but is not incompatible with canon. Mikael also wrote (in reply to me) > >> As an aside, much of that increase is actually due to immigration. >> How do wizards deal with that? >> >> The Hogwarts' quill records the names of wizards born within range, >> but Indian muggle-borns whose parents have just immigrated will not >> be listed. > > And will thus not get a magical education nor become wizards. Hence > they won't affect the wizarding population. > It means that the muggle population from which muggle-borns can be drawn is smaller than the raw census data indicates, though only by a few percent, reducing the number of muggle born wizards by the same percent. It's also possible that the percentage of muggle-borns in the immigrant population is different, just as the percentage of red-heads is, and for much the same reasons. While there's no evidence for this, it wouldn't be surprising. This is one of many possible small corrections to your model. Since they are unlikely to all be in the same direction they don't alter the mean prediction, but they do widen the error range somewhat. I asked: >> Does the Ministry hunt down immigrant muggle-borns, and notify >> other countries of emigrants, or do the muggle-borns in such families >> slip through the cracks? > Mikael replied: > Why would the MoM care about non-listed magical muggle-born children? > If the Hogwarts quill don't register them, they don't exist. > Presumably for the same mix of reasons as any muggle-borns are admitted to Hogwarts. Untaught wizards would keep having magical accidents, which are a public nuisance. Dark wizards might find it easy to recruit the untaught as cannon-fodder. Some wizards might be offended by the notion of potential wizards (members of a superior breed) being forced to live as mere muggles. > >> If the ministry lost track of many muggle borns during the >> mass muggle migrations of the last centuries this could have >> a significant impact on wizarding demographics. > > Possibly. Migration don't affect the muggle population in any > dramatic way, Most of the time. >From memory, in the 1800's over a third of the muggle Irish population emigrated. In some of the British ex-colonies there have been times when more than half the population were first generation immigrants. Mikael claimed: > Changes in muggle numbers have to be *huge* to affect the number of > muggle-born wizards. > > Robert Shaw replied >> The change may be huge, but since the muggle population is also >> huge this cancels out. >> >> A 5% change in muggle numbers will produce a 5% change in >> muggle-born numbers, to a first approximation. > > To take Robert's last point first, a 5% change in muggle numbers will > produce a comparably *smaller* change in the numbers of muggle-borns, > given the longevity of wizards, muggle-born or otherwise. > To clarify, I meant the number of wizards born to muggles in the year in question, not the total number of muggle-borns. > As to the first point, I need to clarify myself. I *should have* said > "Changes in muggle numbers have to be really, really huge to affect > the number of *wizards*" (i.e. not only muggle-born wizards. This > makes a difference, see below. > Hugeness is relative. (A mountain looks huge next to me, but small next to the earth.) Talking percentages is more objective. I agree the percentage change in muggle-born numbers is smaller than that in muggle numbers, but it is of the same order of magnitude. Mikael also wrote: > > If we look at muggle birth numbers (actually, UK birth numbers) over > the last hundred years, the *maximum* fluctuation for *any* > consecutive seven-year period deviates from the mean by only 20 % > (this including effects of migration, to boot). Assuming that wizard > birth numbers vary as much, my estimate of wizarding numbers of about > 24 000 is bounded at 20 or 30 000 (assuming my die-off model is > reasonably accurate). > Which is to say 24,000 +25%/-16% Those are decent error bounds, but there is still quite a lot of leeway within them. > > Whew. If you managed to wade through this delusional demographic > debate to the bitter end, you have my deepest respect. > The bitter end? We've barely scratched the surface of this topic. For a full discussion we'd need to pull out the partial differential equations, and brush up on our statistics. Still, intelligent debate is always fun, even with the gloves on. Despite the unsoundness of some of your assumptions, I think at least half your conclusions are at least half right. You can assume I mostly agree with everything I cut. -- Robert From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Mon Oct 20 17:16:31 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:16:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Equality of opportunity References: <6.0.0.22.0.20031020140831.02788e80@pop.bredband.net> Message-ID: <2a0701c3972d$f0e3cf90$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83198 Mikael Raaterova wrote: > Robert Shaw wrote: > >> Nor is equality of opportunity necessarily connected with birth rate. >> For muggles bringing up a large family was a full time job, because >> of the sheer drudgery involved. Magic makes it much easier, house >> elves more so. >> > > Your conclusion doesn't follow, unless you assume that all witches > have a nanny or two (or a house-husband...). We do have a few > child-raising references in canon, at the QWC; they do not hint at > nannies of any species or any spell-based ersatz-mothering Not mothering, maid-service. I'm pretty sure Narcissa didn't wash all Draco's nappies by hand, which would have taken a few hours each day. Magic won't reduce the people-managenent aspects of child-rearing, but it can eliminate the drudgery. Wizards will have had the equivalent of automatic washing machines and vacuum cleaners long before muggles, which will have saved wizard parents quite a bit of time. -- Robert From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 21:32:00 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:32:00 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tub_of_earwax" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > Geoff: > > Just to be pedantic, we are actually introduced to Susan Bones in > PS > > when she is the second named person to be sorted and goes into > > Hufflepuff. Lara: > To be very precice. We were first introduced to Susan and her family > in PS/SS when Hagrid said that some of the best families were > murdered, like the Bones'. Then we meet Susan at teh sorting > ceremony. Then in CoS she is one of the people talking to ernie > McMillan (sp?) in the library, about Harry being the heir of > Slytherin. She is the one who finds it strange, and is scpetical > about it. Then not much more on Susan untill OotP. She will probably > be of some use lateron because she is a pureblood, from Hufflepuff, > and on the good side. And she can't be all non-powerful either. I > don't remember how she performed in OotP. But anyway, thought I'd > add that. Geoff: To be counter-pedantic, I said that we were introduced to Susan Bones at the Sorting Ceremony which is correct. She is not specifically mentioned by Hagrid. He only refers to "the Bones'" in the list of those killed; no mention of Susan who is still alive..... Geoff From fredandkell at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 18:46:05 2003 From: fredandkell at yahoo.com (Kelly Paynter) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Release of the Convention Alley Call for Papers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031020184605.26276.qmail@web41301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83200 How do I get off this list? THanks! --- hpfgu_elf wrote: > The Convention Alley Planning Committee is pleased > to announce the > release of the Call for Papers (CFP) for our > HPfGU-sponsored > international Harry Potter conference to be held > July 30-August 1, > 2004 at the University of Ottawa. The text of the > CFP follows this > introduction, and may also be found as both a text > file and in Word > in the files section of the HPfGU-Convention list. > > While we welcome submissions by members of the > professional and > academic communities, we strongly encourage members > of the fandom > community to participate. That means we are looking > for submissions > from *you*, the die-hard fan who can recite the > Harry Potter books > verbatim, who knows the content of every JKR > interview ever given! > The topic areas noted in the CFP are merely > suggestions we are open > to proposals on any and all facets of the Harry > Potter fandom. > > Proposals may take the form of a 500 word abstract > or a completed > conference paper (approximately 5-7 pages). Please > note that > proposals submitted via regular mail must be > postmarked no later than > January 3, 2004, and proposals submitted > electronically must be > received by January 17, 2004. > > Please read the CFP carefully to note all of the > particulars. We are > looking forward to receiving your submissions! > > ~Phyllis Morris > on behalf of the Convention Alley Planning Committee > > > > CALL FOR PAPERS > > Convention Alley > An International Harry Potter Convention > University of Ottawa > Ottawa, Ontario (Canada) > July 30-August 1, 2004 > > This international conference envisions bringing the > Harry Potter > fandom together in the beautiful city of Ottawa to > discuss J.K. > Rowling's novels with one another and with literary > scholars. In > addition to a keynote speaker and programming > sessions presented by > fans and professionals, the convention will feature > directed > discussion groups as well as informal opportunities > for fans and > scholars to get to know one another and to enjoy the > city of Ottawa. > A highlight of the convention will be a party for > all participants to > celebrate Harry's birthday on July 31st. > > The Canadian Programming Committee seeks proposals > for presentations, > moderated panels and workshops on any topic relating > to the Harry > Potter novels and/or their fan community. We > strongly encourage > members of the fandom community to participate, and > also welcome > submissions by members of the professional and > academic communities. > While potential topics and suggested submissions are > noted below to > get your creative juices flowing, we are interested > in any and all > ideas please do not feel limited by the potential > topic areas or by > the examples of potential submissions! > > Presenters should be at least 18 years old, as the > conference > programming is intended for adults. However, > participants are > encouraged to bring their families and many of the > informal events > will be open to family members. > > Programming Sessions > > Potential programming session topics include, but > are not limited to, > the following areas: > > Characters in the Harry Potter series. Thanks to > the myriad > of characters dreamed up by Rowling, there are > innumerable > opportunities for presentations in this area. A > submission might > include two panelists presenting evidence in > Rowling's canon that > Professor Severus Snape will turn out to be evil in > the end, and two > other panelists presenting canon evidence that Snape > will turn out to > be good. Another submission might propose a > presentation comparing > Draco Malfoy as he is portrayed in Rowling's canon > vs. Malfoy as he > is known in fanfiction. > > Mythology in the Harry Potter series. Rowling > draws heavily > from mythology in the series, from the three-headed > dog Fluffy (based > on Cerberus who guarded the Underworld in Greek > mythology) to names > such as "Argus" and "Narcissa." A submission might > highlight the > characters that are based on mythology, explain > their mythological > basis and provide a rationale for why Rowling chose > to link those > characters with these specific myths. > > Education in the Harry Potter universe. We invite > teachers > (and administrators) in the fandom to compare their > jobs to the ones > held by their analogs in the Harry Potter novels. > Possible topics > include detailed analyses of Rowling's views on the > state's role in > education, and how the teachers in Rowling's > universe would fare in > the "real world". > > Symbolism in the Harry Potter series. Proposals > might > explore how Rowling uses symbols and metaphors to > express her views > and the goals of the series. For example, > submissions might analyze > metaphors of death ("beyond the veil") or symbols of > Christ (the > stag, the phoenix, Harry's repeated resurrections). > > Fandom Influences in the Harry Potter series. A > proposal in > this area might review Harry Potter and the Goblet > of Fire and Harry > Potter and the Order of the Phoenix to identify > instances where > Rowling may have responded to popular questions from > the fandom > (e.g., how to pronounce "Hermione"). > > Understanding and Exploring British Terms in the > Harry Potter > novels. For non-British readers, some of Rowling's > British > expressions and terms are, well foreign! A > submission in this area > might propose a roundtable discussion run by British > fans that would > entertain audience questions on dialects and British > terms in the > novels. > > The Canadian Programming Committee cannot stress > enough that these > topic areas are merely suggestions. They should not, > therefore, be > interpreted in any way as limitations on the subject > matter of > potential proposals. Proposals on any and all facets > of the Harry > Potter fandom are welcome and encouraged. The > Committee only > requests that your proposal be respectful of the > interests and views > of others in the fandom. > > Time Blocks > > Proposals should specify the estimated amount of > time needed for > presentation and discussion. > > Programming sessions will be held on Saturday, July > 31 === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 20 19:13:43 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:13:43 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Snipping > Laura: > Are you talking literally or metaphorically? If the former, there's > just not a lot of touch-feely stuff going on in the Potterverse at > all, as we've noted before on this list. > If you're talking metaphorically, again, I don't see evidence of > that attitude in the Potterverse. There's a formality in the > culture that is quite unlike, say, American attitudes. (I think we > could use a bit more of that, actually.) But Snape is just a > miserable misanthrope. You never see him engaging in casual > conversation with anyone at the staff table at meals or hanging out > in the staffroom. He communicates what he has to when he has to and > that's it. Kneasy: My bilious attack was nothing to do with the site (outbreaks of distressing 'Love thy neighbour' here can be nipped in the bud by a few snarls) but by an irritation closer to home. And what's wrong with being a misanthrope? Perfectly legitimate hobby. Hours of endless fun can be derived by ruining some-one's day for them. Particularly useful as we approach Halloween; damn kids expecting me to feed 'em. Haven't they got parents for that? Casual conversation. Well, I suppose that Snape doesn't think that anyone has anything interesting to say. What, do you think, would he talk about with Flitwick? Or Sprout? or even McGonagall? No, he's not what used to be called 'a clubbable man.' No "Hail fellow, well met, how's your begonias?" More "Push off, I'm busy." Though he was seen chatting to Quirrell at the beginning of PS/SS. Maybe that cured him of sociable tendencies. Laura: > We know that Sirius (oh, stop grinding your teeth, Kneasy) refers to > a gang of Slytherins with whom Snape hung out. But we don't know > what kind of relationship this was-was it really friendship or just > a common interest in nastiness and intimidation (the Slytherin house > hobbies)? So I'm not sure that we have any canon at all for Snape > ever having had what we could define as a friendship. > My point was that it's unreasonable of Snape to use his personal > losses as his excuse for his unkindness to students, since lots of > other people suffered what he did and more and seem to be able to > form human connections. He was just always like that and if he > wants to blame it on LV, fine, but I'm not buying. > Kneasy: Why must he react the same way as others? I fear that you are possibly embracing the compulsory 'ersatz coercive bonhomie' tendency that I was decrying a couple of days back. I suspect that you're trying to have it both ways. First you wish that there was more English reserve in the US and then you castigate some-one for practicing it. Twas ever thus. There's no pleasing some people. There he sits, his whole life torn asunder, suffering, wounded, facing a bleak and lonely future, no helpmate to brighten his days, no prospect of curly-headed grandchildren at his knee, trying desperately hard to keep the upper lip from trembling and you chide him for lack of chit-chat. Heartless, that's what you are, heartless. > Laura responds: > Ah...but who do you think was the lucky lady? Come on, Kneasy, give > us some hermeneutical exegesis here. (I love it when listess talk > philosophy...*grin*) > > Kneasy: Florence, of course. > Laura: > Do you really think that Snape had no theory at all about what was > going on with Remus? He had had at least 5 years, maybe 6, by this > time to watch the goings-on, and he was no fool. Every full moon > Remus disappears for a night? Hmm, wonder what that could mean? I > think he had a very strong suspicion about Remus's secret. Kneasy: Do we know from canon when in their school career the 'Prank' took place? I don't think we do. I doubt he knew every full moon, unless Remus was in Slytherin. Probably noticed every now and again. I think he's much too smart to knowingly barge in on a werewolf. You'd need a deathwish to do that. Laura: > Yes, Sirius knew he was suggesting something dangerous-not smart. > Did he think Snape would be stupid enough to do what he had > suggested? He probably didn't care one way or the other-again, not > smart. Yes, Sirius bears some moral responsibility here. But Snape > was entirely capable of judging for himself the motives behind > Siriius's advice to him. Ultimately our actions are our own > responsibility, wouldn't you agree? Kneasy: I want to hear Snape's version. So far only Remus has spoken and he was in the Shack, not with Sirius. It all depends on what Sirius said. It's possible that the 'Prank' was the first overt clash between Snape and the gang. Not probable, but possible. A vague dislike may have degenerated into warfare from this episode. Snape "was always nosing about." Maybe Sirius got fed up and decided to teach him a lesson. How would you place the responsibility in that case? > Laura, who wonders why she even bothers to put her HPs back on the > bookshelf when they inevitably end up next to the computer anyhow Kneasy: Invest in another set. Then one can get filled with yellow stickies for reference purposes and the other can be heaved at the source of unwelcome interruptions. Severity of offence determines whether it's PoA or OoP. From sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 19:49:25 2003 From: sarcasticmuppet at yahoo.com (sarcasticmuppet) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:49:25 -0000 Subject: Ponderables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Sharman > wrote: > > Deedee: > > > 2. If only the heir of Slytherin could open the chamber of > secrets > > > how was Harry able to open the Chamber of Secrets??!? > > > > > > > Geoff: > > In COS, where Harry meets up with Tom Riddle in the Chamber, TR > tells > > him that Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber...... > > > > James: > > I've seen this heir of Slytherin subject discussed a few times and > I think a > > possibility has been missed. My suspicion is that when Slytherin > said that > > only his true heir could open it he might have meant any > parcelmouth who > > wanted to kill mugleborns. > > > > > Geoff: > but that still raises the point of Ginny opening the Chamber. She is > not a Parseltongue speaker; it seems that Riddle must have had some > sort of control over her.... > > "'Haven't you guessed yet, Harry Potter?' said Riddle softly. 'Ginny > Weasley opened the Chamber of Secrets. She strangled the school > roosters and daubed threatening messages on the walls. She set the > serpent of Slytherin on four Mudbloods and the Squib's cat.' > 'No,' Harry whispered. > 'Yes', said Riddle, calmly, 'Of course, she didn't /know/ what she > was doing at first.....'" > > Possibly an Imperius curse or something similar but that doesn't give > the victim the ability to speak a language they don't know, i.e. > Parseltongue.... > > Answers on a postcard..... Ginny wasn't under the Imperius curse, sillies. She was /possessed/ by Riddle. In OotP we see that the two are completely different. Ginny does not relate any tales of being in complete bliss while encouraged to do the CoS stuff. She just doesn't where she was or what she did while being possessed. We see in GoF that the symptoms of Imperio are drastically different. --sarcasticmuppet-- From lbiles at flash.net Mon Oct 20 20:50:24 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:50:24 -0000 Subject: House Elves' Magic and Possible Involvement with LV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > Granny again responds: But I'm still curious about the reason for Winky's extreme unhappiness and alcoholism. She's still in servitude at Hogwarts. I suspect that something is on her conscious. >Grey Wolf: Winky is crushed because she's been thrown away from her family. I don't see consciense problems, more like deep worrying. Notice that she constantly wonders what will happen to Crouch Sr. now that she's not there to take care of him. Of course, she might feel that she is in some way responsible for having been socked, but many people that go through similar experiences tend to think "maybe it was my fault" even if it wasn't (for the record, I think it *was* her fault, since it was she that bullied Sr. into allowing Jr. to go to the Quidditch Final in the first place and then not doing her job properly - she must have known that a Quidditch match would involve sitting somewhere high - but I think that the socking was excessive and dangerous). I think Winky's extreme unhappiness and alcoholism are precisely because she blames herself. She talked Crouch Sr into taking Jr to the Quidditch match against his better judgment. When all hell broke loose she was unable to keep Jr under control despite her best efforts and she ended up not only letting down Sr but deeply embarrassing him in front of all those present -- a failure on her part on all fronts. We must also remember that at those points in the story when she is drowning her sorrows in butterbeer she is well aware that Jr is out there somewhere running amok and yet she doesn't tell anyone. She is keeping her "master's" secrets to the distinct danger of the wizarding world. Dobby ironed his hands or shut his ears in the oven when he felt the need to punish himself . . . maybe this is just Winky's own special brand of self-flagellation. leb From grannybat at hotmail.com Mon Oct 20 21:43:00 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:43:00 -0000 Subject: Oh, Quit Whinging Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83204 Hmmm. I've a bit of confusion here. >From my exposure to the HP universe and various British mysteries and comedies that air on my local PBS station, I was under the impression that the word "whinging" was equivalent to the American "whining" -- that high-pitched, irritating form of pleading employed by tired toddlers and manipulative grownups to wear down adult resistance. (Why, hello, Mr. Pettigrew.) But I've just read a page from the PoA movie article featured in Xpose Magazine that refers to the Dursley's suburb as Little Snoring. Snoring? Well, I suppose it's possible. Certainly when Harry wasn't defending himself from assault by Dudley, or coping with wizardly problems, he was nearly bored to a stupor at Number Four. Still, I always took the name Little Whinging to be JKR's swipe at the way the citizens of Surrey react whenever magic or mere scruffiness intereferes with the way they think their perfectly normal lives SHOULD be. I tried looking up Whinging on the Britspeak section of the HP Lexicon, but it's not listed. Is this just a matter of the print media once again not getting their facts straight, or am I missing one of the subtle nuances of British language? The offending article can be found here: http://www.visimag.com/xpose/x80_feat01.htm Grannybat From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Oct 20 21:46:52 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:46:52 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83205 First posted as message 76055:- Questions are interspersed with chapter summary: Harry sent to bed by his aunt and uncle after the Dementor attack and Owl deluge, immediately writes to Sirius, Ron and Hermione demanding answers and details of his removal from Privet Drive. He's full of anger and self pity, hating his confinement and child-like treatment. Harry snaps at Hedwig when she returns from hunting, but regrets his behaviour once he has lost her soothing presence ? his only friend at Privet Drive. He directs Hedwig to peck his friends until they give her answers, and then falls asleep still in his clothes. *4* days follow in which Harry is confined to his room, segregated from the rest of the household with his Aunt providing food through the cat flap. The segregation seems to suit all concerned as Harry isn't actually locked in his room but isolates himself from the Dursleys for fear of provoking further confrontations leading to possible unintended magic. Aunt Petunia refuses to engage Harry in any further discussions about her wizarding knowledge/connections. Harry's bedroom door seems to be a prop that Petunia now needs to rebuild the barrier she has towards the WW of which Harry is of course, a constant and visible reminder. Harry spends his time either full of restless energy or in a state of torpor that lays him out on his bed for hours at a time. He aches with dread at the thought the MOM hearing against him wondering whether he will end up in Azkaban. (Q1) Harry is a teenage boy who at this stage in the story is lacking any guidance, but does he have a hygiene problem? He goes to sleep in the same dirty, ill-fitting clothes that he is wearing when we first see him in Chapter 1. He doesn't comb his hair when confined to his room, but is this a symptom of a wider lack of looking after himself? His clothes might only have been dirty because he had been hiding in the flower bed, but is he actually allowed to wash his clothes? Has Petunia washed her hands of all responsibility towards Harry's physical appearance perhaps encouraging his delinquent appearance as it so obviously sets him apart from her and what she stands for, allowing her to despise him even more? (Q 2) Is the behaviour exhibited by Harry ? waxing between total inactivity and inability to stay still, a sign of depression or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? We see him wanting to externalise some of the internal pain and frustration he is feeling by having Hedwig peck his friends this does seem to be an unwelcome development in Harry's character from the boy we left in GoF. (Q 3) Is Petunia's order that Harry is not to leave the house an acknowledgement that she knows that Harry is now only safe *in* the house? But her insistence that Harry be confined to his room for her benefit as she cannot stand his presence? (Q 4) Does Hedwig's ability to follow Harry's orders, as we later find out that she has pecked Ron and Hermiony, an indication of her having a special talent or are all owls capable of more than messenger duties? After 4 nights the Dursleys are lured out of the house as they believe they have been short listed for the All-England Best Kept suburban lawn competition. Vernon is typically smug when he tells Harry that the Dursleys are going out, but he, Harry is not allowed to even leave his room. After Vernon tells Harry that he is not to leave his room, steal food or touch the Dursley's possessions, he seems taken aback by Harry's lack of interest and decides to lock Harry up anyway. The path is now clear for Harry to be rescued. Harry first hears a noise in the kitchen and thinks there might be burglars. The crash turns out to be Tonks breaking something. (Q 5) How did the Advance Guard arrive? Presumably they all apparated, but Harry didn't appear to hear any "popping" sounds which were so loud when Mundungus disapparated that half of Privet Drive seemed to hear him leave ? unless the sound is louder when disapparating or when the apparition is carried out in the open air? Harry's jumps off his bed and makes to his door which magically unlocks, wand in hand. When Harry reaches the top of the stairs he hears Mad-eyed Moody's voice, but doesn't trust him. He only descends the stairs after he has been reassured by Professor Lupin and he has seen a large group of wizards in the hallway. Harry is very uncomfortable and self conscious to see all the wizards staring at him. Just as Harry was unsure whether the Moody was the real Moody, so Moody asks for confirmation that Harry is actually Harry ? even suggesting Veritaserum as a means to confirm Harry's identity. Lupin asks Harry about his Patronus. Harry is introduced to the Advance Guard. Only Tonks and Kingsley Shacklebolt have any great role in OoP . Moody stops Harry from asking about Voldemort saying it is not safe to speak there. Harry learns that he is to fly to his new safe haven. (Q 6) Are the likes of Elphias Doge and Emmeline Vance the equivalent of the "Red shirts" in Star Trek, crew members introduced to be killed off? Sturgess Podmore gives us an indication that this might be the case, as to date; his function has been to be Imperioed and imprisoned. Harry learns that Tonks is a Metomorphmagus and an auror who seems to greet everyone with the East London term "Wotcher" although we are given no other indication that she has a London accent, so this phrase could just be an affectation or habit. We learn that being a Dark Wizard catcher is the only career that Harry has ever considered. [Authorial note: since writing, Stephen Fry has released his audio version in which Tonks has a Lancastrian accent despite saying "Wotcher" - the use of wotcher is still unknown to the author outside of London]. (Q 7) Will Tonk's special talent come into play later or is JKR really overplaying the changing appearance card? (Q 8) At this stage in OoP, Harry hasn't been banned from Quidditch, so why has he never considered Quidditch as a professional career? He loves it and appears to be exceptionally gifted at it yet here seems content to continue it as a hobby. Tonks helps Harry to pack his trunk and then they return to the kitchen where Moody places a Disillusionment Charm on Harry so that, chameleon-like, he resembles his surrounding background. After a signal, Harry and his guard fly to his safe haven. Harry learns that there is a rear guard as well. (Q 9) The size of Harry's guard is partly due to intrigue about Harry, but seems absurd when compared to his trip to the MOM when Harry has only Mr Weasley to accompany him. Is Harry really unsafe or is it just a combination of Moody's paranoia and other peoples general nosiness? Harry becomes very cold flying but experiences real pleasure, forgetting his problems for the first time in weeks. Harry and co finally land in an unkempt square in a dilapidated almost slummy part of London. We are reintroduced to the Put-Outer first used by Dumbledore at the beginning of PS/ SS. The chapter finishes with Moody giving Harry written details of the Order of the Phoenix HQ which he tells Harry to memorise. (Q 10) Does the use of the Put Outer here show that it is used solely as its name implied or is it an indication that Harry is again provided wit Multi-layered protection without him realising? (Q 11) Why when the MoM appear to monitor Harry's presence in Privet Drive, do they not monitor ? or question ? his sudden disappearance from there? (Q 12) Much of this chapter could be viewed as superfluous narrative. Is this a chapter which a more rigorous editor would have stripped down to a few lines? Has JKR's success actually meant that her editors are now reluctant to offer advice and guidance which might have lead to the OoP being a shorter and punchy book? Ali From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 21:56:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:56:26 -0000 Subject: House Elves' Magic and Freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Grey Wolf" wrote: > > Granny again responds: > > > > ... I'm still curious about the reason for Winky's extreme > > unhappiness and alcoholism. She's still in servitude > > at Hogwarts. I suspect that something is on her conscious. > > Grey Wolf: > > > I don't go that far, though. Winky is crushed because she's been > thrown away from her family. I don't see consciense problems, more > like deep worrying. ...edited... > > At any rate, IMO, Winky's alcoholism comes from a depression caused > when she was cut away from her family, the family she was bound to > serve and that had come to love and certainly felt deeply about. > bboy_mn: I think Grey Wolf is on the right track here. In general, a house-elf's purpose is to serve, but in Winky's specific case there is a far more specific reason behind what we see. Winky's family had served the Crouchs for many many generations. Her grandmother and mother brought her up in the service of this family. That made the Crouch family far more than a job to Winky, they were part of the very essense of her being; they were part of her self-identity. She wasn't just a house-elf, the was a Crouch house-elf. Now that sense of identity has been take away from her. Winky is profoundly sad and grieving. She is not just mourning the loss of her family in the sense of no longer serving them, but she is mourning the total loss of the Crouch family line under tragic circumstances. Circumstances to which I'm sure she feels a great deal of blame and shame. Winky's purpose wasn't to serve; by birthright, it was to serve the house of Crouch; a house which no longer exists, and in Winky's eyes, she too no longer has a reason to exist. That's a bitter pill for anyone to swallow. > > Grey Wolf (originally said): > > > > "...I see Dobby as the great Elf exception..." > > > > Granny responded: > > > > No, I have to disagree. We saw in Book 4 (kitchen scene with > > Harry, Ron, Hermione) that Dobby's not proud of his "freedom". > Now Grey Wolf responds: > > I disagree. Dobby is very proud of his freedom, and he demonstrates > it clearly by keeping his clothes perfectly clean and buying more > with his pay. bboy_mn: There is a small element of truth in Granny's statement, but I think it is slightly mis-interpreted. Dobby does show a definite fondness for freedom as Grey Wolf pointed out, but he does express some hesitation in discussing it in the Kitchen when H/R/H visit. However, I take that hesitation as his reluctance to flaunt is freedom in front of the other house-elves. They obviously are not as thrilled by Dobby's freedom, and think it a very improper thing for a house-elf. So I take this hesitance that I assume Granny view as Dobby being hesitant about freedom, as Dobby being hesitant at getting the other house-elves riled. > > Granny says: > > > > ...and don't forget he's secretly collecting Hermione's Elf > > clothing so that other house elves won't be freed. > Grey Wolf now responds: > > False. He is *not* collecting them in secret, .... The other elves > were offended at Hermione's plot and *stopped* cleaning Griffindor > Tower. Dobby took on the entire job and since those hats and other > clothings were there to be picked up by the elves cleaning the room, > Dobby picked them up. > > He didn't pick them up so that the other elves weren't freed - the > other elves had already seen them and decided against being free. > Dobby was just picking them up because they were a (bad intentioned) > present. > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf bboy_mn: Well Grey Wolf, you've done it again. You have unknowingly giving me an open invitation to expound at length on one of my many (many, many) theories of the wizard world. Hermoine, Elves, and Clothes- I simply refuse to accept that an elf touching an article of clothing instantly free the elf. I also believe that elves come into contact with clothing all the time in the course of their duties. It would seem well within reason that Draco Malfoy does not wash his own socks, and equally, his mother is unlikely to wash them. His family has servants and washing socks is servant business, not the duties of a young wizardly aristocrat. So Draco wants his socks washed, he takes the off, throws them on the floor, and says to the next elf he sees, 'Do my laundry'. The elf gathers the clothes and cleans them by whatever means elves typically use; magic or elbow grease. To think otherwise seem absurd to me. To think that merely coming into contact with clothing frees an elf is far too impractical. What if an elf were walking past a wizard, and the wizard's cloak brushed against the house-elf, would logic dictate that as sufficient to free the elf? I think not. If simple contact with clothes were sufficient, there would be far more accidentally freed house-elves. Let's extent that scenerio and say that the cloak that touched the elf was not the Master's cloak, but the cloak of a guest in the Master's house. An even more ridiculous circumstance in which to assume the elf would be freed. First and formost, that guest in the Master's house has absolutely no authority to free someone else's house-elf. To think that possible is the same as thinking I can walk into a random business office and start firing people. It just doesn't work that way. In Hermione's case, she is hopelessly misguide nearly to the point of dillusional in believing her wooly hats can free any elves. She can give the elves clothes until she drops from exhaustion, and not one single house-elf will be freed simply because Hermione doesn't have the authority to dismiss Hogwart's house-elves. I sure when she thought of it, it made perfect sense from her limited perspective. But time and time again, in reference to house-elves, Hermione has demonstrated that her perspective is extremely limited and un-enlightened. So why did the Hogwart's elves act the way they did? Dobby and Grey Wolf explained it nicely. It was clear to them what Hermione was trying to do, and the elves were offended by that. So offended that a wizard would try such a pathetic trick that they refused to clean the Gryffindor tower. In order for Hermione to effectively help the house-elves, she is going to have to forget trying to change the elves, and focus her attetion on changing wizards. The house-elves are fine, it's the wizards that are screwed up. As I have said before, I don't think there is any magical or judicial binding law holding house-elves in enslavement. They are enslaved by choice, and are held to their service by a deep fierce sense of honor, commitment, loyalty, tradition, history, and a deep genuine need to be of service to others. The elves enter into the agreement to serve a family house with this fierce sense of honor, and an eternally unwavering sense of commitment. Wizards however, are not as honorable, selfless, or commited to the arrangement. Wizards have learned over the centuries that they can use elfin honor and commitment against the elves. They use it to abuse and control the elves in unethical and immoral ways. What Hermione has to do, is make a change, either by legal status or moral inclination, that forces wizard to enter into the contract of elfin servitude with the same sense of honor, commitment, loyalty, and mutual benefit that the elves bring to the agreement. Then she would effect a genuine change for the better, a change to the betterment of elfs and wizards. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Oct 19 21:22:55 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:22:55 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the "Big Read" - Part 2 (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: June: > The programme was about "reading" as opposed to highbrow literary > punditry and his snobbish remarks were emotive and unnecessary. I > felt this was just the usual stance that the so-called literary > community tends to take about the fantasy genre as a whole and not > just Rowling's work. Geoff: It doesn't surprise me. In Tom Shippey's "J R R Tolkien: Author of the Century" which is a superb critique of JRRT's work, he has a chapter "Afterword: the Followers and the Critics" which details the sort of flak he came under both when the book first appeared and later. Michael White (who is a respected newspaper journalist in the UK) published an excellent new biography helpfully entitled "Tolkien: a biography"(!) in 2001 and has a screamingly funny chapter on the reaction of the literati to JRRT and to the fact that LOTR topped the polls several times in the late 1990s. Frankly, I must belong to the "Adult-slow" as one critic termed LOTR fans because I, like June, would far sooner curl up with Harry Potter, LOTR, Alan Garner's Brisingamen books or (shh) Winnie the Pooh rather than some boring run-of-the-mill kitchen sink stuff. Those of you who wade through my waffling will know that I am a great LOTR and HP fan. They are different in style etc. but evoke the same huge delight. To get a sensible view look at the interest shown in both authors' work on the CBBC (Children's BBC) website for example. Geoff > > > June > > (I voted for LOTR;-) - Go fantasy genre!) So did I. Go for it Dumbledalf and Gandore! Geoff From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon Oct 20 22:06:22 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:06:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh, Quit Whinging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83208 Grannybat: > From my exposure to the HP universe and various British mysteries and > comedies that air on my local PBS station, I was under the impression > that the word "whinging" was equivalent to the American "whining" -- > that high-pitched, irritating form of pleading employed by tired > toddlers and manipulative grownups to wear down adult resistance. > (Why, hello, Mr. Pettigrew.) But I've just read a page from the PoA > movie article featured in Xpose Magazine that refers to the Dursley's > suburb as Little Snoring. > I tried looking up Whinging on the Britspeak section of the HP > Lexicon, but it's not listed. Is this just a matter of the print > media once again not getting their facts straight, or am I missing > one of the subtle nuances of British language? > Rather than waiting for an actual Brit to answer this question, I'll jump right in and do it myself like the yankee I am ^_~. Your first impression of whinging was correct: it *does* mean to whine. Don't believe me? Well, you don't have to take *my* word for it! According to Merriam-Webster Online: Main Entry: whinge Pronunciation: 'hwinj, 'winj Function: intransitive verb Inflected Form(s): whinged; whing?ing or whinge?ing Etymology: from (assumed) Middle English, from Old English hwinsian; akin to Old High German winsOn to moan Date: 12th century British : to complain fretfully : WHINE By the way, I *strongly* recommend www.m-w.com to absolutely *everyone*. I usually use it at least once a day, when I want to know the *exact* definition of a word, variations in spelling and pronunciation, etc. Also, there's a thesaurus (which I don't use as much, as the one in Word is perfectly adequate for my needs). I agree that Little Whinging *is* a jab at the Dursleys and their socioeconomic kin (though what JKR has against the middle class, I don't know *shrugs*). Honestly, I have no idea what might be up with the article which refered to "Little Snoring," unless they were trying to make a joke about how boring the Dursleys are. Which, personally, I doubt. It's much more likely that it's bad journalism or...I don't know...was the article translated? Laura (who can't muster the strength to post on anything theoretical or at *all* cerebral right now, but still likes to contribute every now and then) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 23:12:25 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:12:25 -0000 Subject: Imperius Curse and Parseltongue (was Re: Ponderables...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83209 Geoff wrote: >but that still raises the point of Ginny opening the Chamber. She >is not a Parseltongue speaker; it seems that Riddle must have had >some sort of control over her.... > Possibly an Imperius curse or something similar but that doesn't give > the victim the ability to speak a language they don't know, i.e. > Parseltongue.... Well, if Neville can perform gymnastics that he would not have been physically capable of under the Imperius Curse, then I'm sure an Imperius would be able to make you speak a foreign language. The only different is that the person putting the Imperius on you would have to be able to speak it. Also, to merely speak a foreign language you don't necessarily have to be able to understand each word, only pronounce the words. So, even though Ginny *can't* (to our knowledge) speak parseltongue, so long as Riddle said, 'Now Say "Hisssss, sssisssths sssorsssth,"' then technically she would be speaking parseltongue. Despite the fact that she has no idea what the sounds she just made actually mean. And seeing as Harry can speak parseltongue, it appears that you only need a human voice and mouth to speak it. Anyway, the rules of possession seem to behave very differently from the Imperius curse if Harry's possession by Voldemort is anything to go by- he felt Voldemort using his mouth to speak. Voldemort was actually inside his body controlling every movement with no choice of resistance at all. If Ginny's possession was similar in that sense, then she needn't even have to utter a single word of Parseltongue herself, it would be Tom Riddle saying every word, except using Ginny's mouth to speak it. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Oct 21 00:12:07 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:12:07 -0400 Subject: ADMIN: Contest Results/Final Naming Poll Message-ID: <004201c39767$f77b8980$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83210 Greetings from Hexquarters! The votes to rename the former Humongous Bigfile are in, and the clear winner among the choices was: "Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now That You've Signed Up" The winner of the award for special services to HPFGU is Dicentra Spectabilis. A trophy will be engraved with her name and kept in a special case in the HPFGU trophy room. It has come to our attention, however, that some of you are nostalgic for the old name, which was not among the options. As a result, we're considering whether to keep the old name, adopt the new name, or use both, and are setting up a new poll with the following options: * Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now That You've Signed Up * The Humungous Bigfile *The Humungous Bigfile: Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now That You've Signed Up Please vote! The poll will remain open for two weeks. The Indecisive!List Admin Team [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 00:18:58 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:18:58 -0000 Subject: Oh, Quit Whinging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: > Hmmm. I've a bit of confusion here. > But I've just read a page from the PoA > movie article featured in Xpose Magazine that refers to the Dursley's > suburb as Little Snoring. > > Snoring? > >Is this just a matter of the print > media once again not getting their facts straight, or am I missing > one of the subtle nuances of British language? > > The offending article can be found here: > http://www.visimag.com/xpose/x80_feat01.htm > > Grannybat It's the article that's a bit pitiful. It also mentions "Uncle Dudley." Really, any of us could have done better. :) Annemehr From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue Oct 21 00:20:18 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 21 Oct 2003 00:20:18 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1066695618.116.85289.w85@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83212 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: The name of the admin file should be: o The Humongous Bigfile o Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now That You've Signed Up o The Humongous Bigfile: Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now That You've Signed Up To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1146255 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 00:49:52 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:49:52 -0000 Subject: teaching/learning ethics in the WW (kinda long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83213 Since June posted her message #83074, I've been thinking about the teaching of ethics in the WW. I haven't figured it all out clearly (since when has that stopped me?) but I do have a couple of comments and questions. First, yes, I agree that it would probably be very difficult from an authorial point of view to show a discussion of formal ethics teaching. So I wouldn't expect JKR to include one. And, sure, there are constant discussions among characters about whether a certain action is desirable. That can mean anything from whether it's allowed to whether it's safe to whether it's ethical. Most of these discussions include Hermione, I'd say. But what's striking about them is that there's never a reference to any legal or moral code, so the discussions happen in a vacuum. The alternative is that everyone knows the code so well that they never need to refer to it, but somehow I don't think that's the case. If we were designing a school curriculum that included ethical teaching, how would we do it? It's not included in public school curricula as such because the assumption is that kids will receive that training from a religious institution and/or from home. But Hogwarts isn't a public school in the US sense of the word; it's a state(as it were)-sponsored leadership training school. So it might be expected to include a more comprehensive curriculum than a regular school would. Now we know that it's impossible to teach certain subject without moral and ethical questions arising. Discussions of literature, history and humanities inevitably touch on larger questions. Similarly, you'd think that in the WW, history of magic would get to some pretty important issues-or it would if Binns weren't such a waste of time (maybe he bored himself to death?). But most of the courses the kids take at Hogwarts are more practical than academic. Sure, they all have theory involved, which is what homework tends to be about. But wouldn't most listees agree that the students spend most of their class time practicing skills rather than listening to lectures or having discussions? So maybe the better comparison is to classes like shop or cooking or driver's ed, in which there is theory but you can still learn the skill without becoming expert in the theory. And when you take classes like that, the discussion component is pretty small, so you don't actually talk much about what why you should learn this particular skill set and how it might be misused. Lectures by the teachers are usually about safety in the class and how to use the equipment properly. That's the model we see in the HP books, I think. Yet, charms and potions and so forth are more complicated than shop or cooking. They involve changing the nature of physical reality, or changing someone's behavior, if only temporarily. So you'd think that at some point there would be some acknowledgement of the questions raised by the practice of these powers. The idea of teaching kids how to do this stuff in a moral vacuum is a bit disturbing, to say the least. If I were designing the curriculum, I think I'd include a year-long ethics course that was required before leaving the school. I'd want the kids to discuss their powers and the ramifications of using them in the WW-and the muggle world as well. Of course, ideally this would be an ongoing part of magical training. But in the absence of that, some hard discussions with some adults the kids respect would be welcome-sorry, Snape wouldn't be teaching this one. What about the WW as a whole? I think Pippin's point in post # 83126 is relevant here. She says: The wizards seem to live in a society where humanist revolutions never took place. They don't think of people as having equal individual rights; instead it's maintaining their rights as wizards that concerns them. Although ethics can be applied to group behavior, in the final analysis, it's an individual choice as to whether to follow them or not. So maybe the whole area is just not as evolved as it is in a society that is more concerned about the individual. The WW has laws forbidding the most extreme of curses, and it has lots of regulations-caluldron bottom thicknesses, imports of flying carpets, misuse of muggle artifacts. But, as has been observed on this list before, it doesn't seem to have any stable, predictable justice system. Maybe, as Pippin suggests, that's because survival of the group is the priority and individual behavior is dealt with on a much more ad hoc basis. Anyhow, just some rough theories. Laura, junior ethicist From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Mon Oct 20 13:35:03 2003 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:35:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry dies!!! In-Reply-To: <001d01c39687$b1ad45a0$cd6509d4@John> Message-ID: <002101c3970e$f7c6e7d0$2cefa118@jamesz9ibq8rxr> No: HPFGUIDX 83214 Pilotjb3 writes: Very interesting thought. I'm not sure it will happen but it would put an interesting twist on things. But I still think Harry will be standing tall at the end of book 7 having defeated he who must not be named and with his friends still at his side. *********** May be Harry Potter dies, but in book 6 rather than book 7. Somehow Harry is in a fight with one of the death eaters and loses. But rather than death he becomes a 'vapour' just like Voldemort was in the first three books. As in the prophecy '.either must die at the hand.' it would imply that if someone else kill him, he doesn't die. JK has made many references to how Harry may not be alive after Hogwarts. She has been suggesting that Harry will die, but letting everyone believe it is at the final chapter of book 7. Other web sites have been saying in book 6 we go to the grave of Harry's parents. Dumbledore could re birth Harry, but in doing so sacrifice himself. Just a thought.... From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Mon Oct 20 16:54:26 2003 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:54:26 -0000 Subject: House Elves' Magic and Possible Involvement with LV In-Reply-To: <20031020081615.45842.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83215 Grey Wolf wrote: > > "...Notice that she (Winky) constantly wonders what will happen to Crouch > Sr. now that she's not there to take care of him. ..." > > Granny responds: > > "My goodness, this is an interesting point. If memory serves me correctly, Crouch Sr. is dead isn't he? (SNIP) Isn't Winky aware of this fact? (SNIP) > Now me (Mario): Winky actually is aware that Crouch Jr. killed Crouch Sr. In GOF, she wsa in the room when DD interrogated Crouch Jr. under the influence of Veritaserum. She was there and said something like "NNNoooooo..." . Mario From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 18:51:47 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:51:47 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83216 Ever since finding out that Snape is spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore, I've wondered how he can get away with it. In PS/SS, Voldemort was on the back of Quirrell's head while Snape was warning Q to figure out "where his loyalties lie" (quote may be wrong, don't have books with me here). Even through that purple turban, he was bound to have heard the conversation. Then in GoF, it's likely Crouch Jr., posing as Moody, overheard sensitive information that he passed on to Voldemort via the eagle owl. So it seems to me that Voldemort would know where *Snape's* loyalties lie. All that makes me wonder -- what information is Snape giving to Voldemort et al to convince them he is still a loyal DE and that makes him useful enough to keep alive? Is he being set up for a scene in which V reveals that he knows Snape is a double agent before killing Snape? Any thoughts? (Sorry if this has come up before) AP From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 20 21:21:59 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:21:59 -0000 Subject: Ponderables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sarcasticmuppet" wrote: > Ginny wasn't under the Imperius curse, sillies. She was /possessed/ > by Riddle. In OotP we see that the two are completely different. > Ginny does not relate any tales of being in complete bliss while > encouraged to do the CoS stuff. She just doesn't where she was or > what she did while being possessed. We see in GoF that the symptoms > of Imperio are drastically different. > Geoff: Yes, I'd forgotten that. Without living up to your ID name then, are you suggesting that Riddle was possessing her literally and therefore he was producing the Parseltongue needed? He does say "she strangled.." etc. and not "I made her strangle..." or "I possessed her so that she would strangle...." Your next postcard? From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 20 22:08:22 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:08:22 -0000 Subject: Oh, Quit Whinging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83218 Grannybat: > Hmmm. I've a bit of confusion here. > > From my exposure to the HP universe and various British mysteries and > comedies that air on my local PBS station, I was under the impression > that the word "whinging" was equivalent to the American "whining" -- > that high-pitched, irritating form of pleading employed by tired > toddlers and manipulative grownups to wear down adult resistance. > (Why, hello, Mr. Pettigrew.) But I've just read a page from the PoA > movie article featured in Xpose Magazine that refers to the Dursley's > suburb as Little Snoring. > > Snoring? > > Well, I suppose it's possible. Certainly when Harry wasn't defending > himself from assault by Dudley, or coping with wizardly problems, he > was nearly bored to a stupor at Number Four. Still, I always took the > name Little Whinging to be JKR's swipe at the way the citizens of > Surrey react whenever magic or mere scruffiness intereferes with the > way they think their perfectly normal lives SHOULD be. > Geoff: I think that the writer may have been working from memory and just got the name of the village or town wrong. I think that in the films, the name only appears on the letters to Harry and isn't mentioned elsewhere. There is a real village called Great Snoring and this may have influenced the mistake. Whinging (or whingeing as some dictionaries have it) is indeed complaining.My dictionary defines it as "complaining persistently and peevishly." I would use it in a slightly different context to whining; it's more a persistent going on ad nauseam about something which has or has not happened rather than 'demanding' something which a fractious or obnoxious child might; I hope that makes some sort of sense. I have a feeling that it may be Australian in origin. I think JKR's Little Whinging is in outer suburban Surrey - in what we call the "stockbroker belt". I taught for many years in the inner suburbs of Surrey and it was not as leafy or pleasant as Privet Drive (residents of no.4 notwithstanding). Little Whinging does indeed reflect the attitude of many suburban citizens in the UK to whom a change in the day of the dustbin collection can be a disaster! From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Mon Oct 20 23:01:40 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:01:40 -0400 Subject: Potion Master supreme Message-ID: <005101c3975e$1f6d90a0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83219 I have a suggestion as to why DD has not allowed Snape to teach DADA. Perhaps it is because he cannot be replaced as Potions Master and for some reason, as yet to be revealed, it is vital for the survival of DD's "army" to have mastered certain potions. We know that Snape is very skilled with potions, because only he is able to make the potion for Lupin. DD is able to find others who can teach DADA, even if they all haven't been as effective as one might want, but none can equal Snape for his expertise in potions. DADA is more glamorous, but perhaps Potions is more essential. I have always thought I would like Potions class, because I enjoyed chemistry and working with very precise amounts and particular directions is something that I enjoy. Mary Jo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From astrid at netspace.net.au Tue Oct 21 01:04:42 2003 From: astrid at netspace.net.au (Astrid Wootton) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:04:42 +1000 Subject: Essence divided addendum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83220 I said: First, the poem is not about being in love, (more below) but Love is the power the Dark Lord knows not, (OoP UKHB page743) and which he despises and has always, therefore, underestimated to his cost. (OoP UKHC page 136). Here?s an Addendum My emphasis got lost in the post. I was drawing the distinction between the power of *Love* and that of being *in love*. Love *is* an important clue to the eventual pay off, but being *in Love* has clearly no place in LV and Harry?s relationship. Astrid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 01:35:15 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:35:15 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83221 > Laura: My point was that it's unreasonable of Snape to use his personal losses as his excuse for his unkindness to students, since lots of other people suffered what he did and more and seem to be able to form human connections. He was just always like that and if he wants to blame it on LV, fine, but I'm not buying. > > > > Kneasy: > Why must he react the same way as others? I fear that you are possibly embracing the compulsory 'ersatz coercive bonhomie' tendency that I was decrying a couple of days back. I suspect that you're trying to have it both ways. First you wish that there was more English reserve in the US and then you castigate some-one for practicing it. Twas ever thus. There's no pleasing some people. Laura responds: He doesn't have to. But if you're positing that "Snape's Secret Heartbreak" is an excuse for cruelty and intimidation, I'd have to disagree. If he doesn't want to be every every student's favorite teacher or if he thinks his colleagues are a bunch of airheads, fine. But the way he acts is beyond "unclubbable". McGonagall shows reserve. Snape shows disinterest verging on contempt for his peers and much worse than that for his students. > Kneasy: > There he sits, his whole life torn asunder, suffering, wounded, facing a bleak and lonely future, no helpmate to brighten his days, no prospect of curly-headed grandchildren at his knee, trying desperately hard to keep the upper lip from trembling and you chide him for lack of chit-chat. Heartless, that's what you are, heartless. > > Laura responds, wiping away tears of laughter: It isn't easy to evoke pity for Snape in me, but your description of the Ghost of Snape Future did it. The poor man would rather face LV a thousand times than ever have to dandle babies on his knees-and I think any babies forced to be dandled by Snape would agree. Heartless? Damn right. > Kneasy: > Do we know from canon when in their school career the 'Prank' took > place? I don't think we do. Laura: The assumption after OoP on this list seems to be that it was after Pensieve 2, iirc. But I'll have to go back and look again for evidence about when it took place. > > Kneasy: > I want to hear Snape's version. Laura: Don't we all...Really, what we've heard from Snape, Sirius and Remus has all been heavily edited by the tellers. That incident itself would make a very interesting short story. Or short novel, if we got very lucky. From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 01:36:13 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:36:13 -0000 Subject: Ponderables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83222 > Geoff: > Yes, I'd forgotten that. > > Without living up to your ID name then, are you suggesting that > Riddle was possessing her literally and therefore he was producing > the Parseltongue needed? He does say "she strangled.." etc. and > not "I made her strangle..." or "I possessed her so that she would > strangle...." > > Your next postcard? james redmont: Yes he said that, but unless I'm wrong, he was trying to get a rise out of Harry by saying it. Riddle couldn't have done it alone, I'm guessing, because he was only a memory. And yes, he possessed her literally because she said he did in OotP. She blacked out and couldn't remember what was going on for short periods of time. James From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 03:14:17 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 03:14:17 -0000 Subject: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031020140901.0278d460@pop.bredband.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83223 Another way of looking at it is "How many do you need?" How many people does it take to form a stable, distinct ethnic group in a larger society? Here's some numbers: Population of Great Britain: 60,000,000 Population of Scotland: 5,000,000 Jews in Great Britain: 285,000 Romany (Gypsies) in G.B.: 120,000 Both Jews and Rom have managed to persist as distinct groups over hundreds of years in Britian, despite discrimination. That's real world evidence that 120,000 is "enough". Since wizards have longer adult lives, as well as other advantages, certainly a smaller number would suffice. Another example is Athens, which in its Golden Age had a population of about 450,000. Half were slaves, and we can assume whatever they did is performed by magic or Muggles. Women weren't educated or allow to participate in public life; since wizards don't waste half their population, we can assume they'd need half the free adult population of Athens. That gets us, again, to a bit under 120,000. So I'll take it as certain that 100,000 is enough. But that's more than four times 24,000. Your numbers are well based on the internal evidence, but you may have spent more time calculating than Rowling ever did. She writes fantasy, not science fiction, and isn't expected to have an entirely plausible and consistent world view. - Caipora Mikael Raaterova wrote: > To summarize my findings below: > > - About 30 percent of Hogwarts students are muggle-borns > - No more than half of the 11-17 years old wizard-borns in the British > isles attend Hogwarts > - The wizarding population is about 24 000 (bounded at 20-30 000) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 03:54:36 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 03:54:36 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?I=92ll_Fly_For_Thee,_Angelina_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83224 I'll Fly For Thee, Angelina (OOP, Chap. 13) To the tune of Don't Cry For Me Argentina from Lloyd Webber's Evita Dedicated to Lilac THE SCENE: The Quidditch Field. As he tries out for Keeper, RON passionately implores Angelina to let him join Gryffindor's Quidditch Team. RON: This is not easy, I think you'll laugh But I'll try to maintain I won't fail If you will give a chance to the last Weasley son Take it or leave it. And I will follow the path Wood once flew Since now I have a worthy broom A slick Cleansweep Seven brand-new I have to try for Keeper, might be a gaffe, But this isn't the time to turn tail Looking out for the Quaffle, until the game is won. I can achieve it Sweeping around trying it out, out of view How can I express it at all? This destiny I must pursue .. I'll fly for thee, Angelina In truth I'm no human Bludger But unlike Vicky Or Geoffrey Hooper I'll do no whining With Charm Club troopers And as for Frederick and as for George They've always derided me so For it seems to the twins I am merely a prat Because I'm prefect They say there's some defect deep-rooted in me The fans will forgive that whole thing If I win a great victory I'll fly for thee, Angelina I'll give it the royal treatment All through my field play Let Slytherin scorn I'm a Gryffindor Since I have been born Have I said too much? There's little more I can show to you, I am no king But all you have to do Is let me play to make the Hogwarts fans all sing! (RON successfully blocks a Quaffle, dodges a Bludger and does a victory loop during the orchestral crescendo. Camera pulls back to reveal Harry, doing another detention with Umbridge, catching the faintest glimpse of RON'S loop from the open window.) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 04:22:58 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:22:58 -0000 Subject: teaching/learning ethics in the WW (kinda long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83225 "jwcpgh" wrote: Certainly it's unintended, an probably inappropriate for this forum, but I couldn't help but wonder if Hogwarts' sex education course is consistent with the rest of the curriculum as you describe it: > But most of the courses the kids take at Hogwarts are more practical > than academic. Sure, they all have theory involved, which is what > homework tends to be about. But wouldn't most listees agree that > the students spend most of their class time practicing skills rather > than listening to lectures or having discussions? So maybe the > better comparison is to classes like shop or cooking or driver's ed, > in which there is theory but you can still learn the skill without > becoming expert in the theory. And when you take classes like that, > the discussion component is pretty small, so you don't actually talk > much about what why you should learn this particular skill set and > how it might be misused. Lectures by the teachers are usually about > safety in the class and how to use the equipment properly. That's > the model we see in the HP books, I think. On a more serious note, you quoted: > What about the WW as a whole? I think Pippin's point in post # > 83126 is relevant here. She says: > The wizards seem to live in a society where humanist > revolutions never took place. They don't think of people as > having equal individual rights; instead it's maintaining their rights > as wizards that concerns them. Honey, it sounds like the real world to me. In my city - a major City - the Journalists' Union's Ethics Committee had a member who'd tried to shoot another journalist, and tragedy was avoided only because her gun didn't go off. This was before she was elected to the committee, mind you. A prominent lawyer told me that the purpose of the Bar Association's Ethics Committee is to protect lawyers who've committed ethical violations, and protect lawyers' prerogatives. I think, Laura, that Rowling devotes more attention to ethical questions than most authors. The points given to Longbottom because "Sometimes it takes more courage to stand up to your friends than to stand up to your enemies" are a very clear statement of moral principle. Although Hermione clearly doesn't understand everything about house elves, SPEW is about ethics. Nicholas Flamel's decision to go quietly into that good night is also an ethical decision. Drinking unicorn's blood has clear moral consequences. Harry's decision to place rescuing the hostages over winning the Triwizard Cup trial in the lake is also clearly laid out as a moral choice. Few authors of children's literature place such an emphasis on ethics. Of any literature, really: go to the airport bookstore and count the bestsellers with swastikas on the cover. They're useful because they provide "bad guys" without having to go to the trouble of explaining why they are bad. They just are, so let's skip the ethical questions and get on with the story. As to an ethics course, morals can be easily taught to children, much as logic can be. Ethics requires greater maturity. The reason children are treated differently under the law is that they cannot understand the consequences of their actions: and understanding the consequences of one's actions is what ethics is about. - Caipora From grahadh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 03:12:14 2003 From: grahadh at yahoo.com (grahadh) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 03:12:14 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > First posted as message 76055:- > (Q1) Harry is a teenage boy who at this stage in the story is > lacking any guidance, but does he have a hygiene problem? He goes to sleep in the same dirty, ill-fitting clothes that he is wearing when we first see him in Chapter 1. He doesn't comb his hair when > confined to his room, but is this a symptom of a wider lack of > looking after himself? His clothes might only have been dirty > because he had been hiding in the flower bed, but is he actually > allowed to wash his clothes? Has Petunia washed her hands of all > responsibility towards Harry's physical appearance perhaps > encouraging his delinquent appearance as it so obviously sets him > apart from her and what she stands for, allowing her to despise him > even more? DG: I think that Harry may have some personal hygiene problems, but I think Harry's hygiene serves more to illustrate that Harry has no parental guidance at Privet Drive. There are no adults at Privet Drive that care whether or not Harry wears clean clothes or bathes because they don't care about him in general. At Grimmauld Place Mrs. Weasley reminds Harry to wash his hair the night before his trial, she washes and irons his best clothes, and tries to flatten his unruly hair that morning. She cares about him, wants him to be healthy and make a good impression at the trial. In the WW Harry has adults that care for him and provide role models for him to follow, not so at Privet Drive. > (Q 5) How did the Advance Guard arrive? Presumably they all > apparated, but Harry didn't appear to hear any "popping" sounds > which were so loud when Mundungus disapparated that half of Privet > Drive seemed to hear him leave ? unless the sound is louder > when disapparating or when the apparition is carried out in the > open air? DG: I assumed that the Advance Guard arrived the same way they returned: by broomsticks. I may be wrong in that assumption, but that is what made the most sense to me. > (Q 7) Will Tonk's special talent come into play later or is JKR > really overplaying the changing appearance card? DG: In my experience it pays to take note when JKR repeats something, becuase when she repeats it it generally turns up later as something more important. A good example of this in OoP is when she repeatedly mentions the witch in the veil in The Hog's Head so that we will remember "her" later on when we find out that she is actually Mundungus. So, yes, I think Tonk's talent will come into play in the future, whether it is through her or through another metamorphmagi, I don't know. > (Q 11) Why when the MoM appear to monitor Harry's presence in > Privet Drive, do they not monitor ? or question ? his sudden > disappearance from there? DG: We only see this story through Harry's perspective, so it is hard to say whether or not the MoM knew about the rescue plan or not. Dumbledore may have informed the MoM that he was planning to take Harry from Privet Drive, as he had done the previous summers. So they may have already been aware that Harry was leaving, even though Harry himself was not aware. But this just a theory, and not one that I'm particularily attached to. These are just some of my thoughts to some of the queries posted. -D.G. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 16:12:24 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:12:24 -0000 Subject: 12 uses for Dragons Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83227 June wrote: > > > > Suggestions: > > > > 1. An excellent (though intense) haemorrhoid preparation > > 2. Fantastic in certain "wild" cocktails > > 3. Brilliant in stir-fry. > > > > And apologies for levity. Anyone else? > > Kneasy : > 4. Gives an excellent patina when used to polish a wand > > 5. Muggle solvent > > 6. Flesh-eating slug repellant How about: 7. Nail Polish remover 8. Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans ingredient 9. Great Halloween decoration Meri From redearth3000 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 20:35:15 2003 From: redearth3000 at yahoo.com (Duke) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone else over PPD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031020203515.55578.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83228 Bobby wrote: > Remember that the sooner JKR gets Books 6 and 7 out the sooner Post Potter Depression is going to set in, and that's going to be really bad. >>> I think there will be 10 books total in the series. You've got 7 in the "Hogwarts series" and another 3 after that for Auror training. Ch. 29 p. 665 (US) ...sayed Professor McGonagall,"perseverance and dedication, because Auror training takes a further three years, not to mention very high skills in practical defense. It will mean a lot more study even after you've left school, so unless your're prepared to..." I think JKR is setting the ground work to continue even after Harry has left Hogwarts. Or maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part. D From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Tue Oct 21 05:59:37 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:59:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 References: Message-ID: <2d3b01c3979c$d50c95d0$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83229 o_caipora wrote: > Another way of looking at it is "How many do you need?" > > How many people does it take to form a stable, distinct ethnic group > in a larger society? > That depends on how cohesive the ethnic group is, a result of assorted cultural factors. There are ample reasons why wizard society would be highly cohesive, starting with its minimal interaction with muggle society. > Here's some numbers: > Population of Great Britain: 60,000,000 > Population of Scotland: 5,000,000 > Jews in Great Britain: 285,000 > Romany (Gypsies) in G.B.: 120,000 > > Both Jews and Rom have managed to persist as distinct groups over > hundreds of years in Britian, despite discrimination. That's real > world evidence that 120,000 is "enough". > But it doesn't establish a minimum. > Since wizards have longer adult lives, as well as other advantages, > certainly a smaller number would suffice. > > Another example is Athens, which in its Golden Age had a population > of about 450,000. Half were slaves, and we can assume whatever they > did is performed by magic or Muggles. Women weren't educated or allow > to participate in public life; since wizards don't waste half their > population, we can assume they'd need half the free adult population > of Athens. That gets us, again, to a bit under 120,000. City states are certainly a better standard for comparison but many of those 120,000 were peasant farmers, whose work is also done by muggles, so far as we can tell. The goblins provide financial services to wizards, again reducing the wizard population size needed. Nor was classical athens the smallest ever city state. > So I'll take it as certain that 100,000 is enough. But that's more > than four times 24,000. But there's enough leeway in all these computations to have 30,000 wizards, and to have that be enough to keep wizarding society afloat. > > Your numbers are well based on the internal evidence, but you may > have spent more time calculating than Rowling ever did. She writes > fantasy, not science fiction, and isn't expected to have an entirely > plausible and consistent world view. > All fiction, including fantasy, should aim for internal consistency. When the authors fall short, we readers can have a lot of fun filling in the gaps. -- Robert From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 21 06:45:40 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:45:40 -0000 Subject: Harry dies!!! In-Reply-To: <002101c3970e$f7c6e7d0$2cefa118@jamesz9ibq8rxr> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83230 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Pilotjb3 writes: > JK has made many references to how Harry may not be alive after > Hogwarts. She has been suggesting that Harry will die, but letting > everyone believe it is at the final chapter of book 7. > Geoff: I wonder if this is one of those famous JKR red herrings. The use of the conditional tense for example - "may not be alive", "suggesting that". I have a feeling (and I hope I'm right) that she is twisting our tails and at the end, Harry will be there with Jo Rowling saying in effect "Ha! Fooled you. You were all expecting me to kill him off and I didn't!" From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 21 07:01:45 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:01:45 -0000 Subject: Ponderables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > > > Geoff: > > Yes, I'd forgotten that. > > > > Without living up to your ID name then, are you suggesting that > > Riddle was possessing her literally and therefore he was producing > > the Parseltongue needed? He does say "she strangled.." etc. and > > not "I made her strangle..." or "I possessed her so that she would > > strangle...." > > > > Your next postcard? > james redmont: > > Yes he said that, but unless I'm wrong, he was trying to get a rise > out of Harry by saying it. Riddle couldn't have done it alone, I'm > guessing, because he was only a memory. And yes, he possessed her > literally because she said he did in OotP. She blacked out and > couldn't remember what was going on for short periods of time. Geoff: That's an interesting point. Picking up on someone else's point as well, Voldemort's possession of Ginny seems to be different to that brief possession of Harry in OOTP. Harry was conscious of the fact that he was being invaded but, in COS, he is using the possession to become real... "But there isn't much life left in her: she put too much into the diary, into me. Enough for me to leave its pages at last." (UK edition p.231) "It looked bad all right. But the longer Riddle stood there, the more life was dwindling out of Ginny... and in the meantime, Harry noticed suddenyl, Riddle's outline was becoming clearer, more solid. If it had to be a fight between him and Riddle, better sooner than later." (p.233) Could led to some interesting "What if?" speculation. Geoff From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 21 08:58:34 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:58:34 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83232 AP wrote: > Ever since finding out that Snape is spying on Voldemort for > Dumbledore, I've wondered how he can get away with it. In PS/SS, > Voldemort was on the back of Quirrell's head while Snape was warning > Q to figure out "where his loyalties lie" (quote may be wrong, don't > have books with me here). Even through that purple turban, he was > bound to have heard the conversation. Then in GoF, it's likely > Crouch Jr., posing as Moody, overheard sensitive information that he > passed on to Voldemort via the eagle owl. So it seems to me that > Voldemort would know where *Snape's* loyalties lie. All that makes > me wonder -- what information is Snape giving to Voldemort et al to > convince them he is still a loyal DE and that makes him useful > enough to keep alive? Is he being set up for a scene in which V > reveals that he knows Snape is a double agent before killing Snape? > > Any thoughts? (Sorry if this has come up before) > AP sachmet96: I have thought about that too, recently Syd pointed in message 83169 to message 7901 that Voldemort already knows that Snape's loyalities lie not with him. citing from message 7901 "Back in October/November one of the posters on Jenna's UHPFC board attended a reading that JKR did in Vancouver.She reported that afterwards there was a Q&A session, during which JKR was asked straight out who the three "missing" Death Eaters were.JKR gave a reply which apparently made it obvious that the faithful servant was Barty, the coward was Karkaroff - and the one who had left forever and who would be killed was Snape." If this is true, then Snape can't be spying directly on Voldemort. There must be another way for him to spy (maybe he has a spy network or something like that). From jamess at climax.co.uk Tue Oct 21 09:03:59 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:03:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ponderables... Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301A96E80@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 83233 sarcasticmuppet: > Ginny wasn't under the Imperius curse, sillies. She was /possessed/ > by Riddle. In OotP we see that the two are completely different. > Ginny does not relate any tales of being in complete bliss while > encouraged to do the CoS stuff. She just doesn't where she was or > what she did while being possessed. We see in GoF that the symptoms > of Imperio are drastically different. > Geoff: Yes, I'd forgotten that. Without living up to your ID name then, are you suggesting that Riddle was possessing her literally and therefore he was producing the Parseltongue needed? He does say "she strangled.." etc. and not "I made her strangle..." or "I possessed her so that she would strangle...." Your next postcard? SilentJim: (Formerly referring too himself as James but switching to my LJ nickname seems wise on a list this size especially after another James chirps into the thread) The muppet hath given the answer I always presumed. This could have been in the form of direct possession or it could have been something else. A possibility is that LV simply gave Ginny the exact syllables necessary to open the door, it would not be necessary for Ginny to understand what was being said (I can memorise a piece of French even though I can't understand it). I think the precise mechanic is actually a bit of a distraction, Look at it this way. Tom Riddle: True Parseltongue , opened the chamber by his own ability. Ginny: Not a Parseltongue (We presume), however was under the influence of TR/LV and one way or another it was effectively his ability that opened the chamber. Harry: Has his own ability and was able to open the chamber on his own. His own ability we are told was transferred from LV so at some level this is still LV's skill that is opening the chamber. From jamess at climax.co.uk Tue Oct 21 09:13:54 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:13:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 12 uses for Dragons Blood Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301A96E9C@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 83234 June wrote: > > > > Suggestions: > > > > 1. An excellent (though intense) haemorrhoid preparation > > 2. Fantastic in certain "wild" cocktails > > 3. Brilliant in stir-fry. > > > > And apologies for levity. Anyone else? > > Kneasy : > 4. Gives an excellent patina when used to polish a wand > > 5. Muggle solvent > > 6. Flesh-eating slug repellant Meri Added: 7. Nail Polish remover 8. Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans ingredient 9. Great Halloween decoration SilentJim suggests: 10. Distributing necessary chemicals around a dragons body. From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 09:34:15 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:34:15 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: > > > sachmet96: > I have thought about that too, recently > Syd pointed in message 83169 to message 7901 that Voldemort already > knows that Snape's loyalities lie not with him. > > citing from message 7901 > "Back in October/November one of the posters on Jenna's UHPFC board > attended a reading that JKR did in Vancouver.She reported that > afterwards there was a Q&A session, during which JKR was asked > straight out who the three "missing" Death Eaters were.JKR gave a > reply which apparently made it obvious that the faithful servant was > Barty, the coward was Karkaroff - and the one who had left forever > and who would be killed was Snape." > > If this is true, then Snape can't be spying directly on Voldemort. > There must be another way for him to spy (maybe he has a spy network > or something like that). Perhaps he just went back, took his lumps (a bit of cruciatus) grovelled convincingly and is back on a probationary basis. Perhaps Voldemort just thinks he's cute (yeah, I know he betrayed me but he just looks so hot in that cloak and mask...)and decided to forgive him anyway. Evil overlords are generally very susceptible to flattery and grovel. Voldy might well be the most powerful dark wizard of his age, but it strikes me that like most EO's he can be remarkably stupid at times - after all the current match series stands as follows: Voldemort 0 HP 3, two matches drawn Played five fixtures as follows: Godric's Hollow - HP won Hogwarts - getting philosopher's stone - HP won - again Chamber of Secrets - HP won Cemetary confrontation - draw Ministry of Magic - draw. If the average EO was as good as they are always depicted in fiction - quite simply - they'd win if it wasn't for trusting the wrong people and so on. Stopping to show off and duel with adolescent boys when you could just curse them to death springs to mind here too. So I have no problem believing that Snape could get back in - he could certainly talk his way past that. June From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 11:52:00 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:52:00 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83236 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > First posted as message 76055:- > > Harry learns that Tonks is a Metomorphmagus and an auror who seems > to greet everyone with the East London term "Wotcher" although we > are given no other indication that she has a London accent, so this > phrase could just be an affectation or habit. We learn that being a > Dark Wizard catcher is the only career that Harry has ever > considered. [Authorial note: since writing, Stephen Fry has released > his audio version in which Tonks has a Lancastrian accent despite > saying "Wotcher" - the use of wotcher is still unknown to the author > outside of London]. Picky Brit comment: It's a LANCASHIRE accent meaning coming from the now non-existent county of Lancashire in north west England (it housed Manchester and cites like that). Lancastrian either pertains to the extinct royal dynasty that fought in the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485) or to the small town of Lancaster in the south of the English Lake District. I therefore say Lancashire because that accent is distinctive. June From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 12:01:06 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:01:06 -0000 Subject: teaching/learning ethics in the WW (kinda long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" wrote: > Certainly it's unintended, an probably inappropriate for this forum, but I couldn't help but wonder if Hogwarts' sex education course is consistent with the rest of the curriculum as you describe it: > Laura: If so, that's another class Snape won't be teaching. *grins* Although, come to think of it, who would? Maybe Madam Hooch-the gym teachers often get stuck doing the health-related stuff. Her brisk, no-nonsense attitude would certainly take the mystery out of the whole thing, wouldn't it? In any case, let's hope that the teaching is confined to lecture and discussion... From jamess at climax.co.uk Tue Oct 21 12:05:48 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:05:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: teaching/learning ethics in the WW (kinda long) Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301A970D4@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 83238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" wrote: > Certainly it's unintended, an probably inappropriate for this forum, but I couldn't help but wonder if Hogwarts' sex education course is consistent with the rest of the curriculum as you describe it: > Laura: If so, that's another class Snape won't be teaching. *grins* Although, come to think of it, who would? Maybe Madam Hooch-the gym teachers often get stuck doing the health-related stuff. Her brisk, no-nonsense attitude would certainly take the mystery out of the whole thing, wouldn't it? In any case, let's hope that the teaching is confined to lecture and discussion... SilentJim: Perhaps resulting in the first occasion when anyone is relived to hear "Their will be no silly Wand waving in this class" From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 12:14:37 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:14:37 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83239 Kneasy raised an interesting point in his post # 83201. I said that the prank happened sometime after pensieve 2, which would make it after 5th year. But Kneasy pointed out that we don't actually have any canon for that. I had assumed that it happened at least that late because of the way the story is told in PoA. Remus says it took the Marauders the better part of 3 years to figure out how to transform. Then he mentions Snape's suspicion that he (Remus) was helping Sirius get into the school after the escape. At that point, the story of the prank comes out-or at least a somewhat expurgated version of it. Because of the order in which Remus tells about the Marauders, I made the assumption that the prank followed chronologically after the Marauders learned to transform. But that's not necessarily the case, is it? If it weren't for Remus's offhand remark about Snape, the prank might not have come up at all. Furthermore, Sirius and James could have known where Remus went on full moon nights well before they learned the animagus spell. So when *did* the prank happen? And what, if any, are the differing ramifications of it happening before pensieve 2 or after pensieve 2? Or do I just need to get a life? From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 12:18:47 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:18:47 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > First posted as message 76055:- Finally a chapter discussion when I've just read the chapter! Thanks to Andrew Davies who was so scathing about these books on the BBC the other night and encouraged me to re-read!! > >> *4* days follow in which Harry is confined to his room, segregated > from the rest of the household with his Aunt providing food through > the cat flap. The segregation seems to suit all concerned as Harry > isn't actually locked in his room but isolates himself from the > Dursleys for fear of provoking further confrontations leading to > possible unintended magic. Aunt Petunia refuses to engage Harry in > any further discussions about her wizarding knowledge/connections. > Harry's bedroom door seems to be a prop that Petunia now needs to > rebuild the barrier she has towards the WW of which Harry is of > course, a constant and visible reminder. Harry spends his time > either full of restless energy or in a state of torpor that lays him > out on his bed for hours at a time. He aches with dread at the > thought the MOM hearing against him wondering whether he will end up > in Azkaban. > (Q1) Harry is a teenage boy who at this stage in the story is > lacking any guidance, but does he have a hygiene problem? He goes to > sleep in the same dirty, ill-fitting clothes that he is wearing when > we first see him in Chapter 1. He doesn't comb his hair when > confined to his room, but is this a symptom of a wider lack of > looking after himself? His clothes might only have been dirty > because he had been hiding in the flower bed, but is he actually > allowed to wash his clothes? Has Petunia washed her hands of all > responsibility towards Harry's physical appearance perhaps > encouraging his delinquent appearance as it so obviously sets him > apart from her and what she stands for, allowing her to despise him > even more? > > (Q 2) Is the behaviour exhibited by Harry ? waxing between total > inactivity and inability to stay still, a sign of depression or Post > Traumatic Stress Disorder? We see him wanting to externalise some of > the internal pain and frustration he is feeling by having Hedwig > peck his friends this does seem to be an unwelcome development in > Harry's character from the boy we left in GoF. June: This struck me a rather strong depiction of depression. Not so much teenage angst but genuine adult depression. The restlessness struck me as familiar from an unhappy period of my own life - that inability to do anything constructive (of course it would be very hard to do anything constructive if you are confined to one room and fed via a catflap). Similarly - the neglect of appearance, classic signs one might say (though again, just how is the lad supposed to take care of himself if confined like that?). > > > (Q 3) Is Petunia's order that Harry is not to leave the house an > acknowledgement that she knows that Harry is now only safe *in* the > house? But her insistence that Harry be confined to his room for > her benefit as she cannot stand his presence? June: It's very hard to decide what Petunia is thinking here. There's been a huge amount of conjecture on this board along the lines of "what did Petunia know and when did she know it?". I think it's a combination of both - she is coming round to some self-knowledge as regards Harry and of course Lily too. But it's hard to drop ingrained behaviour especially when that behaviour is nasty. I'd like to think that she might become nicer to Harry - but perhaps that's just wishful thinking on all our parts. ?> (Q 8) At this stage in OoP, Harry hasn't been banned from Quidditch, > so why has he never considered Quidditch as a professional career? > He loves it and appears to be exceptionally gifted at it yet here > seems content to continue it as a hobby. June: Given Harry's almost total absence of knowledge about the WW I doubt that he's even given it the slightest thought. > > Tonks helps Harry to pack his trunk and then they return to the > kitchen where Moody places a Disillusionment Charm on Harry so > that, chameleon-like, he resembles his surrounding background. After > a signal, Harry and his guard fly to his safe haven. Harry learns > that there is a rear guard as well. June: I loved the Disillusionment Charm idea. That cold damp feeling trickling down the back of your neck - if that isn't just what you DO feel when you are disillusioned in the RW - what is? > > (Q 9) The size of Harry's guard is partly due to intrigue about > Harry, but seems absurd when compared to his trip to the MOM when > Harry has only Mr Weasley to accompany him. Is Harry really unsafe > or is it just a combination of Moody's paranoia and other peoples > general nosiness? June: I loved Moody's totally over the top paranoia. I liked this chapter because it was good to get back into some humour. The line about wizards losing buttocks had me in stitches, which was awkward because I was on the bus to work at the time. I think at the time I read it - I decided that Moody was totally paranoid, now in the hindsight of having read the whole book, I feel he may well have had a point. And lets face it you don't get to be a successful and surviving Auror for no reason, do you? Constant Vigilance! > > Harry becomes very cold flying but experiences real pleasure, > forgetting his problems for the first time in weeks. Harry and co > finally land in an unkempt square in a dilapidated almost slummy > part of London. We are reintroduced to the Put-Outer first used by > Dumbledore at the beginning of PS/ SS. The chapter finishes with > Moody giving Harry written details of the Order of the Phoenix HQ > which he tells Harry to memorise. >> (Q 12) Much of this chapter could be viewed as superfluous > narrative. Is this a chapter which a more rigorous editor would have > stripped down to a few lines? Has JKR's success actually meant that > her editors are now reluctant to offer advice and guidance which > might have lead to the OoP being a shorter and punchy book? June: I wouldn't have clipped this chapter, personally - but that's only my opinion. I would have contracted the previous two. I think it would have been possible to still convey the real terror of the situation without being so long. It was during chapter two that my daughter dropped out altogether and as far as I know she has not picked up since then. I preferred Ch.3 for the reasons already stated - the humour and also the fact that we can see Harry is getting out of the Dursleys. His situation there is particularly dismal at this point - I'm always glad to see him get sprung from there but particularly now. Call me soppy - but as a parent I find his situation horrible and can never wait to see it improve. June "ARTHUR: I am the King! DENNIS: Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated Imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society." Monty Python and the Holy Grail "Bloody Peasants" From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 12:20:58 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:20:58 -0000 Subject: teaching/learning ethics in the WW (kinda long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" > wrote: > > > Laura: > > If so, that's another class Snape won't be teaching. *grins* > Awww, Hell why not. (grins evilly) - I'd sign up for the practicals alone. Sniggers and runs away. June From jamess at climax.co.uk Tue Oct 21 12:22:03 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:22:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] when did the prank take place? Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301A970EE@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 83242 jwcph wrote: Kneasy raised an interesting point in his post # 83201. I said that the prank happened sometime after pensieve 2, which would make it after 5th year. But Kneasy pointed out that we don't actually have any canon for that. I had assumed that it happened at least that late because of the way the story is told in PoA. Remus says it took the Marauders the better part of 3 years to figure out how to transform. Then he mentions Snape's suspicion that he (Remus) was helping Sirius get into the school after the escape. At that point, the story of the prank comes out-or at least a somewhat expurgated version of it. Because of the order in which Remus tells about the Marauders, I made the assumption that the prank followed chronologically after the Marauders learned to transform. But that's not necessarily the case, is it? If it weren't for Remus's offhand remark about Snape, the prank might not have come up at all. Furthermore, Sirius and James could have known where Remus went on full moon nights well before they learned the animagus spell. So when *did* the prank happen? And what, if any, are the differing ramifications of it happening before pensieve 2 or after pensieve 2? Or do I just need to get a life? SilentJim: Very Interesting! I'll have to go and do some reading but it certainly sounds plausible. It would also clear up another problem. We are told that James risked his life to save Snape from Remus and the issue has been raised that James didn't really risk his life because he could turn into a huge stag. If the prank took place after the Marauders found out about remus' secret but before they became Animagi (Is that the right pluralisation?) it would cast the event in a different light. A possible supporting fact to this is that we are told Prongs/Wormtail & Padfoot prowled the forest and grounds with Remus on full moon nights but the prank is described with Remus alone in the shack. From christopher at changingthetimes.co.uk Tue Oct 21 12:58:13 2003 From: christopher at changingthetimes.co.uk (thesuddenstrike) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:58:13 -0000 Subject: Draco Questionaire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83243 Hi, everyone I apologise if this is not the place to place such adverts (no, this is not spam). I have been writing an article on our favourite bad- boy, Draco Malfoy, and I require some input from other readers. Please could you take the time to answer two questions and email them to me at Christopher_g_nuttall at hotmail.com If You have other HP groups, could you forward this message on as well? Question 1) How do you see Draco as a Character? Question 2) Draco is portrayed in fanfic, most often, as a friend of Harry's, a sexual partner of Harry/Ron/Hermoine/Ginny/etc, a good guy who's misunderstood or some other version contrary to JKRs. Why do you think that that is? Thanks very much for your time Chris From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Oct 21 12:58:39 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:58:39 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83244 I, Ali wrote:- Since writing, Stephen Fry has released his audio version in which Tonks has a Lancastrian accent despite saying "Wotcher" - the use of wotcher is still unknown to the author outside of London]. June replied:- >>> Picky Brit comment: It's a LANCASHIRE accent meaning coming from the now non-existent county of Lancashire in north west England (it housed Manchester and cites like that). Lancastrian either pertains to the extinct royal dynasty that fought in the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485) or to the small town of Lancaster in the south of the English Lake District. I therefore say Lancashire because that accent is distinctive.>>> To quote Stephen Fry:- "Jo Rowling said I'd done the voices as she imagined them. She doesn't say what accents they have, but you get a sense of it from the rhythm and word order of their speech. In Phoenix, I instantly thought Tonks should sound as if she came from Blackburn or Rochdale in Lancashire, slightly Jane Horrocks". See Leaky Cauldron link:- http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/week_2003_09_28.html Thus, I agree that Stephen Fry at least believes Tonks comes from Lancashire. In terms of the Lancastrian definition, I've gone by the Concise Oxford Dictionary definition which gives one definition of Lancastrian as:- "Inhabitant or native of Lancashire or Lancaster". I still maintain that either JKR or Stephen Fry has made a mistake - Tonks shouldn't be saying "Wotcher" *Unless* it is an affectation that she has adopted. However, I do not believe I was wrong to call Fry's accent Lancastrian - unless my dictionary is also wrong. Ali, an equally picky Brit and LOON. From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 12:31:01 2003 From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:31:01 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard/PTSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > (Q 2) Is the behaviour exhibited by Harry ? waxing between total > inactivity and inability to stay still, a sign of depression or Post > Traumatic Stress Disorder? We see him wanting to externalise some of > the internal pain and frustration he is feeling by having Hedwig > peck his friends this does seem to be an unwelcome development in > Harry's character from the boy we left in GoF. Now Martha (who should be reading for her Social Development course, but has decided that this totally counts as studying): I am inclined to think that Harry has, indeed, developed PTSD by the time we encounter him lying in the flowerbed. (I am less sure about depression - I think there is some evidence for it, but depression is named as one of the symptoms of PTSD anyway.) Melanie Black posted on this is message 80228 and Innermurk added to what was said in message 80263 - they both seem to put it much better than I do, but I'll have a go nonetheless. *Grins and waves to them, if they're reading* National Center for PTSD reports that there are certain groups of people - that is, people who have experienced certain things - who are more likely to develop PTSD in later life. Those who are particularly susceptible include (my emphasis): "Those with prior vulnerability factors such as genetics, early age of onset and **longer-lasting childhood trauma, lack of functional social support, and concurrent stressful life events**" and "Those with a social environment that produces shame, guilt, stigmatization, or self-hatred" I'd say childhood trauma is definitely present in our research subject. :-) At the age of 15 months, he is removed from the environment he was used to and placed in one where the level of stimulation, care and nurture is much lower than it should be for a 15-month-old infant. Moreover, he was made to sleep in a cupboard, do the housework, wear cast-off clothes and so on - not necessarily traumatic in itself, but alongside Dudley, who was spoiled rotten, this is arguably a very traumatic experience. Harry is physically punished, reprimanded for normal behaviour or behaviour out of his control (talking about his dreams, asking questions, having his hair grow back quickly), and treated very, very differently from his cousin (think of the ice-creams at the zoo, or the sort of birthday presents they receive). That is, IMO, "a social environment that produces shame, guilt, stigmatization, or self-hatred". The National Institute of Mental Health's page on PTSD (NIMH - http://www.nimh.nih.gov/anxiety/ptsdfacts.cfm) has this to say about the onset and symptoms of PTSD: "Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is an anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to a terrifying event or ordeal in which grave physical harm occurred or was threatened. [...] Many people with PTSD repeatedly re-experience the ordeal in the form of flashback episodes, memories, nightmares, or frightening thoughts, especially when they are exposed to events or objects reminiscent of the trauma. Anniversaries of the event can also trigger symptoms. People with PTSD also experience emotional numbness and sleep disturbances, depression, anxiety, and irritability or outbursts of anger. Feelings of intense guilt are also common. Most people with PTSD try to avoid any reminders or thoughts of the ordeal. PTSD is diagnosed when symptoms last more than 1 month." So. Back to Harry. He is predisposed to developing PTSD. No definite symptoms pre-graveyard at end of GoF, but the possibility is there. Then - BANG - traumatic life event. Harry is unexpectedly porkeyed away to somewhere unfamiliar and scary. He witnesses the death of a person he is friendly with. He is physically harmed, watches the return of his parents' murderer, surrounded by very intimidating people, is involved in a battle, nearly killed, you know how it goes. Roughly a month after this event, he is displaying (some of the) symptoms of PTSD. Examples: - Nightmares/flashbacks. We are told on at least 2 occasions, as I recall (no books on me) that Harry has been dreaming about a graveyard. Dudley hears Harry calling out Cedric's name in his sleep. - Irritability/outbursts of anger. Harry becomes angry almost immediately upon seeing his two best friends for the first time in a month. This behaviour is repeated throughout the year. He is irritable with Hedwig, then regrets it. He shouts at Umbridge. - Telling himself not to think about the ordeal. Enough said. - Feelings of intense guilt/survival guilt. Doesn't he worry about whether Cho likes him, since **he survived and Cedric didn't**? See also dreaming about Cedric. Also, JKR has said that Harry didn't see the thestrals when leaving Hogwarts at the end of GoF because he hadn't "processed" Cedric's death yet. Two months later, he can see them. I think that backs up the idea that he has developed PTSD by the time he returns to school. That's my theory on it, anyway. Thoughts, anyone? ~ Martha, who would just love to get Snape on the couch. In more ways than one ;-D PS - Anyone else notice that during his high-and-mighty attack on JKR, Andrew Davies slipped into the conversation that he'd only read about 30 pages? Good to see that the literary elite are making informed decisions. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 12:57:49 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:57:49 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grahadh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > First posted as message 76055:- > > > (Q1) Harry is a teenage boy who at this stage in the story is > > lacking any guidance, but does he have a hygiene problem? I think that (and this is just IMHO) Harry does not have a hygiene problem in general. This (the lack of mentions of bathing, toothbrushing, and the like on Harry's part) has been an issue since book one, and I understand that it is easy to picture Harry as getting positively scummy with blood and grime after even a few of his first adventures in SS. However, couldn't it possibly be that Harry does in fact bathe, shower, change his clothes and brush his teeth but JKR, knowing how long her books are already, merely chooses not to mention those times? After all, how exciting would a chapter be if it went, "And then Harry brushed his teeth, and then he washewd his hair, and then he grabbed the soap, etc, etc, etc..."? (To deal with the issue of mealtimes at Hogwarts, which could also be seen as unnecesary, these are collective scenes where things get discussed and done. Surely Hermione, or even Ron, wouldn't follow Harry to the boy's room just to talk!) If, in chapter 3 of OotP, there is a lack of mention of Harry's habits, I agree that it is probably symptomatic of his bad mental state. But I do not believe he continues these temporarily poor habits in all the other books, nor in the remainder of OotP. Meri (who thinks Harry would be a far less effective hero if LV could smell the boy-who-lived coming a mile away) From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 14:19:43 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Elves Freedom....& MORE....! Message-ID: <20031021141943.29825.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83247 21Oct03 "S & R Ranch" wrote: "If House Elves cook & clean then I would assume they also do the laundry. So one would also assume that the act of handling clothes while doing their duties would also not free them in anyway. I believe they refused to clean the common room because they were insulted that someone left clothes around thinking that they would take it as a chance to leave. Their loyalty to Dumbledore, Hogwarts, the staff and students was being insulted ..." Paula now: Yes, this makes a lot of sense. All throughout the series we see that house elves, by definition serve a house, ie family and take pride in doing so. But, this fact still leaves us hanging. Why was Dobby so ready and willing to leave the Malfoys? Why did he choose to take the sock that Lucius inadvertantly passed him as his ticket to freedom and subsequent betrayal of his family? What in Dobby's background made him the "Elf Exception" (quoting Grey Wolf)? Even more to the point, why does Dobby love Harry so much in the first place? As far as I can remember, throughout canon, we are never given a reason for Dobby's undying devotion to Harry. To quote Granny Goodwitch, "we have not seen the last of this issue". My personal theory is that Dobby has a past connection with the Potters and/or Evans. Could it be that the Malfoys acquired him through unethical means? Or, that somewhere in the past there was a schism in House Elfdom, those for and those against LV? Personally, I favor the former, preferring to think that the Malfoy's (as well as all of the Death Eaters') conceit and duplicity will be their final undoing. Any more theories? Paula "Griff" Gaon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Oct 21 14:54:47 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:54:47 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Contest Results/Final Naming Poll In-Reply-To: <004201c39767$f77b8980$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elfundeb" wrote: Hi guys! I LOVE "The Humungous Bigfile." When I first became a member and saw the name of the posting guidelines, etc, I got such a kick out of it. It spoke volumes (ha) about this group and the folks who enjoy it. As soon it, I knew that this was a classy, well educated board with a wonderful sense of fun and fabulous sense of humor. Those are the qualities I love most about this group -- and they are all conveyed in the title, Humungous Bigfile. Add whatever you want to it but please keep that as part of it. Thanks for all your hard work, List Adm. Team. Bohcoo > Greetings from Hexquarters! > > The votes to rename the former Humongous Bigfile are in, and the clear winner > among the choices was: > > "Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now > That You've Signed Up" > > The winner of the award for special services to HPFGU is Dicentra Spectabilis. > A trophy will be engraved with her name and kept in a special case in the HPFGU > trophy room. > > It has come to our attention, however, that some of you are nostalgic for the > old name, which was not among the options. As a result, we're considering > whether to keep the old name, adopt the new name, or use both, and are setting > up a new poll with the following options: > > * Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How to Conform to Them Now > That You've Signed Up > > * The Humungous Bigfile > > *The Humungous Bigfile: Posting Rules You Never Knew You Had to Follow and How > to Conform to Them Now That You've Signed Up > > Please vote! The poll will remain open for two weeks. > > The Indecisive!List Admin Team > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grianne2 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 14:59:53 2003 From: grianne2 at yahoo.com (Annalisa Moretti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:59:53 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83249 Ah, but remember, Snape implies in PoA (or was it GoF? Sorry, I can't remember when he said, but I know he said it) that Sirius, at least, was 16 years old at the time of the prank. At least, he states that he proved that he was capable of murder at the age of 16. One would assume he's speaking about the prank. -- Annalisa --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Kneasy raised an interesting point in his post # 83201. I said that > the prank happened sometime after pensieve 2, which would make it > after 5th year. But Kneasy pointed out that we don't actually have > any canon for that. I had assumed that it happened at least that > late because of the way the story is told in PoA. Remus says it > took the Marauders the better part of 3 years to figure out how to > transform. Then he mentions Snape's suspicion that he (Remus) was > helping Sirius get into the school after the escape. At that point, > the story of the prank comes out-or at least a somewhat expurgated > version of it. Because of the order in which Remus tells about the > Marauders, I made the assumption that the prank followed > chronologically after the Marauders learned to transform. But > that's not necessarily the case, is it? If it weren't for Remus's > offhand remark about Snape, the prank might not have come up at > all. Furthermore, Sirius and James could have known where Remus > went on full moon nights well before they learned the animagus > spell. So when *did* the prank happen? And what, if any, are the > differing ramifications of it happening before pensieve 2 or after > pensieve 2? Or do I just need to get a life? From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 21 14:04:42 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:04:42 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > First posted as message 76055:- > > > > Harry learns that Tonks is a Metomorphmagus and an auror who seems > > to greet everyone with the East London term "Wotcher" although we > > are given no other indication that she has a London accent, so this > > phrase could just be an affectation or habit. [Authorial note: since writing, Stephen Fry has > released > > his audio version in which Tonks has a Lancastrian accent despite > > saying "Wotcher" - the use of wotcher is still unknown to the > author > > outside of London]. > June: > Picky Brit comment: It's a LANCASHIRE accent meaning coming from the > now non-existent county of Lancashire in north west England (it > housed Manchester and cites like that). Geoff: Further picky Brit comment. Tonks' "Wotcher" could be anywhere in London. The "East London" accent referred to probably means Cockney but "Sarf Lunnon" which uses a lot of Cockney phrases covers a much wider area. I lived for 45 years in SW London and still use "wotcher" myself, though as you will see in a mo, I am not a Londoner. Excuse me but Lancashire still exists. They may have shunted Manchester and Liverpool into Greater Manchester and Merseyside respectively but my home town of Burnley is still very firmly in Lancashire. From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 21 15:06:41 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:06:41 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301A970EE@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83251 > SilentJim: > Very Interesting! I'll have to go and do some reading but it certainly > sounds plausible. It would also clear up another problem. We are told that > James risked his life to save Snape from Remus and the issue has been raised > that James didn't really risk his life because he could turn into a huge > stag. > > If the prank took place after the Marauders found out about remus' secret but before they became Animagi (Is that the right pluralisation?) it would cast the event in a different light. sachmet96 I always asumed it happened after pensive 2 as I can't see Severus not telling anyone of Lupin's condition if the memory in pensive 2 was really his worst, which I suppose it can be if they really did take of his pants (but we don't know if they did). But if the prank happened before they became Animagi it would mean that Sirius didn't only endanger Snape's life willingly but also James', his close friend. As Sirius is a friend of James he surely would have known James' character enough to know that he would try to get Snape out of danger should he learn about the prank. It would explain the life debt though, but not even I who doesn't like Sirius, can see him endangering James like that, esp as they were very close friends. On the other hand Remus is also his friend and he could have made him into a murderer. This actually makes me think that the dog (Grim) is a very apropriate animal for Sirius as it's sign of death, isn't it? > A possible supporting fact to this is that we are told Prongs/Wormtail & > Padfoot prowled the forest and grounds with Remus on full moon nights but > the prank is described with Remus alone in the shack. sachmet96: James could have been on his way to Remus (this means he already was an Animagus) that's why he was in time to save Snape. We don't know where Sirius and Peter were at that time, do we? They could have been standing outside. Does anyone know how long it would take to get from Gryffindor tower (where I suppose they would have been if they were not Animagi) to the willow? From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 15:39:10 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:39:10 -0000 Subject: teaching/learning ethics in the WW (kinda long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" > wrote: > > > Certainly it's unintended, an probably inappropriate for this > forum, but I couldn't help but wonder if Hogwarts' sex education > course is consistent with the rest of the curriculum as you describe > it: > > > Laura: > > If so, that's another class Snape won't be teaching. *grins* > Although, come to think of it, who would? Maybe Madam Hooch-the gym > teachers often get stuck doing the health-related stuff. Her brisk, > no-nonsense attitude would certainly take the mystery out of the > whole thing, wouldn't it? In any case, let's hope that the teaching > is confined to lecture and discussion... Annemehr: So, "Wands away," then? Obviously, that's the job for a "chastened" Dolores Umbridge. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Tue Oct 21 15:39:51 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:39:51 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Contest Results/Final Naming Poll In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83253 Happy Good Morning! Debbie wrote: >As a result, we're considering whether to keep the old name, adopt >the new name, or use both, and are setting up a new poll with the >following options: Quick question: Are the poll results advisory or binding this time? Just wondering . . . Cindy -- smiling cheerfully at the Mother Of All Acronyms -- PRYNKYHTFAHTCTHNTYSU, which probably sounds like an especially phlegmy sneeze when pronounced From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 15:51:57 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:51:57 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > wrote: > > --- > [Authorial note: since writing, Stephen Fry has > > released > > > his audio version in which Tonks has a Lancastrian accent despite > > > saying "Wotcher" - the use of wotcher is still unknown to the > > author > > > outside of London]. > > > > June: > > Picky Brit comment: It's a LANCASHIRE accent meaning coming from > the > > now non-existent county of Lancashire in north west England (it > > housed Manchester and cites like that). > > > > Geoff: > Further picky Brit comment. Tonks' "Wotcher" could be anywhere in > London. The "East London" accent referred to probably means Cockney > but "Sarf Lunnon" which uses a lot of Cockney phrases covers a much > wider area. I lived for 45 years in SW London and still use "wotcher" > myself, though as you will see in a mo, I am not a Londoner. > > Excuse me but Lancashire still exists. They may have shunted > Manchester and Liverpool into Greater Manchester and Merseyside > respectively but my home town of Burnley is still very firmly in > Lancashire. Jeez if I'd realised there were all these chippy "Lancastrians" hanging around I'd have kept schtum. Buggerahell as we say in Newcastle. June From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 21 15:34:30 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:34:30 -0000 Subject: Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83255 > wrote: > > Snape - master of his subject, diciplinarian, expects perfection. > > Treats students as he would adults. > and Nora replied: > I am glad that the qualifier "as *he* would adults" is put in there, > although even now I'm not so sure of it. I am under the impression > that he treats the children as he does at least partially because he > *can*, hence the oft-quoted "Snape is a sadistic teacher who abuses > his power." Don't forget, too, that what many of us object to is that Snape is *unfair*. He is nothing near to impartial in his treatment of students, and as a former secondary school educator myself, I can vouch that being impartial is vital in gaining the support of one's students. Snape is a supremely competent and a perfectionistic teacher, but that has nothing to do with treating students differently, as he does. [And I'm *not* speaking of treating students w/ differing abilities differently; you all *know* what I mean.] I think Snape is a fascinating character, and I cannot wait to find out from JKR what really makes him tick. I believe that he so *overdoes* it w/ Harry, Neville & Hermione in part because he's keeping up the game w/ the Malfoys & The Voldy Gang, but there's more there...and I'm not sure anything JKR can tell us will excuse him of his cruelty to, especially, Harry & Neville, and his favoritism towards Malfoy. Siriusly Snapey Susan From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 16:32:57 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:32:57 -0000 Subject: Possession (Was:Re: Ponderables...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > > > Geoff: > > Yes, I'd forgotten that. > > > > Without living up to your ID name then, are you suggesting that > > Riddle was possessing her literally and therefore he was producing > > the Parseltongue needed? He does say "she strangled.." etc. and > > not "I made her strangle..." or "I possessed her so that she would > > strangle...." > > > > Your next postcard? > > james redmont: > > Yes he said that, but unless I'm wrong, he was trying to get a rise > out of Harry by saying it. Riddle couldn't have done it alone, I'm > guessing, because he was only a memory. And yes, he possessed her > literally because she said he did in OotP. She blacked out and > couldn't remember what was going on for short periods of time. > > James Annemehr: Though it might seem a bit egotistical, I'm going to repost a short essay I did about being possessed by Lord Thingy back in early August (when list volume was *really* high), on the off chance that someone hadn't seen it who would be interested... Message 74992 From: "annemehr" Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:38 am Subject: Possession by Voldemort We have had many examples of possessions by Voldemort, but the final one in OoP has me thinking more about this. To review what we know, Voldemort spent much or all of the time he was hiding in Albania possessing small animals. In GoF he explains that none of them lasted long, it shortened their lives. I also have no doubt that it was quite painful for the animals. Even Wormatail heard the rumors of it from the other rats when he was searching for Voldemort after his escape. In PS/SS, Quirrell explained that Voldemort felt the need to possess *him* after the failed attempt to steal the Stone from Gringotts. Quirrell puts it this way: "When I failed to steal the stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased. He punished me...decided he would have to keep a closer watch on me...." Now, I'm not entirely sure if Quirrell's case is a true possession or not. Voldemort is *inhabiting* Quirrell, and can punish him by causing him pain (or, more pain than usual), but he never seems to act *through* him; rather, he just gives him orders. The arrangement *does* seem as though it would have been fatal to Quirrell fairly early on, as it was for the Albanian animals, neccessitating the drinking of Unicorn blood to keep the host body alive (until Voldemort deserts it in the end). In CoS, the situation is entirely different, however, it is still caused by the real Tom Riddle who at the age of sixteen enchanted a diary to be able to possess someone. The eventual victim is Ginny, of course, but her possession is nothing like what happens when the real Voldemort possesses. Ginny does not feel pain, and her life is not shortened *until* Diary!Riddle decides the time is right to steal it. Diary!Riddle does act through Ginny (in contrast to what Voldemort does to Quirrell), and Ginny loses chunks of time whenever this is happening. All this is interesting in light of what Ginny says to Harry in OoP: that she knows what it feels like to be possessed by Voldemort. Her assertion bothers me, because it seems clear that she *doesn't* know, really, given what we know about Quirrell's possession (and Harry's, eventually). Finally we come to Voldemort's possession of Harry at the end of OoP. I was surprised when it happened, because at this point Voldemort has a body *of his own*! How did he do it, then? When he apparated out of the column of water from the fountain, did he drop his body off inside a handy broom closet and enter Harry's, travelling like an astral projection? Or was he all, body and soul, hiding somewhere, and only their minds joined via the scar link (most likely, I guess)? Surely, he didn't possess Harry with his body as well as his mind (ugh)? In any case, this possession reminds me most of the small animal possessions of his Albanian days: he acted (spoke) through Harry, he caused him great pain, and I have no doubt that the possession would have killed Harry had Voldemort been able to keep it going. The idea of possession by Voldemort seems to quite important. It seems to be like all three of the Unforgivable Curses rolled into one, and so much worse than all of them. I wonder if Voldemort will ever confront Harry by possessing someone else? (Now I am thinking of the divination homework in GoF where Harry ended by predicting his own death by decapitation, and later Ron's parrot fake wand cut the head off Harry's haddock fake wand, but the possibilities are endless...) Annemehr wishing she could post a full-blown theory instead of endless questions... [end of post #74992] Annemehr now: I think it's quite a complicated subject, actually, where it may be too easy to make assumptions (something Harry seems to do much too often, unfortunately). I also have to wonder about LV's possession of Nagini (if it was indeed she) at the time of the attack on Arthur, and whether he caused her pain or injury at the time. I can't imagine him wanting to do that to Nagini, because at the very least he risks losing her trust. Does he actually have the ability to possess "gently" but is never interested in doing so except for Nagini? From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Oct 21 16:42:44 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:42:44 -0000 Subject: Copyright and Rita Skeeter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83257 --- Caipora wrote: > > Based on my limited RL experience - only once > has anything I've written been printed in a > vehicle with a circulation over a million - > when you write you sell the copyright. Then > they do with it what they will. I've seen > things of mine on the Internet, presumably > with permission of they copyright owner, who > didn't ask my approval. > > [snip discussion re: work for hire] > > The Skeeter/Lovegood/Prophet arrangement seems > perfectly normal. This is getting a bit off-topic, but the typical arrangement for publication in a periodical -- at least by a correspondent such as Rita -- is a license for publication in that particular issue, not a sale of the copyright or a work- for-hire relationship. (Indeed, since Rita is not an employee of the Quibbler, she can't make a work for hire in the sense that term has historically been used in RW copyright law; it would be different if she were a staff writer.) As a result, Sue (post #83035) is correct in suggesting that the Quibbler would not (again applying RW custom and legal principles) have the right to relicense for publication in a different periodical. There have even been disputes in the US, recently, as to whether a journal can republish its print issue in an online format without obtaining an additional license from the article authors. Caipora, your experience may be different if you made a work for hire or sold your entire copyright. Or, alternatively, maybe you should be asking your licensee for compensation for those Internet pieces.... :) -- Matt From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue Oct 21 09:19:53 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:19:53 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape: Potions Master for 14 years In-Reply-To: <003d01c39654$e337a580$b793aec7@rick> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031021221249.00a49b10@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83258 At 10:23 19/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Iggy: wrote > >And a very good thought there... I think you may have hit on something >there. (Especially since they spent some time evaluating the flashback >scene in the first movie over on the movie list, and it was noted that an >arm was in the scene that was wearing sleeves and such that mach Snape's >clothing exactly. It was also cited that JKR had personally overseen the >setup of that scene, so she MUST have had that in there for a reason...) (Me) I have thought about this a bit. Now, my question, once you take off the hood and mask, what else is left in relation to the DE 'uniform' so to speak. I wonder if Snape ever changed his outfit to something else other than what all the DE's wore back then. However, in the courtroom scene that Harry sees via Dumbledore and the pensieve in his office. It is said that Snape left LV some time before the failed attempt on Harry. It is a very interesting idea that Snape could of been there also. But if he had already left LV, how did he make it out alive, can't quite figure that out. Tanya From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 21 17:55:48 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:55:48 -0000 Subject: Possession (Was:Re: Ponderables...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83259 > Annemehr : > I think it's quite a complicated subject, actually, where it may be > too easy to make assumptions (something Harry seems to do much too often, unfortunately). I also have to wonder about LV's possession of Nagini (if it was indeed she) at the time of the attack on Arthur, and whether he caused her pain or injury at the time. I can't imagine him wanting to do that to Nagini, because at the very least he risks losing her trust. Does he actually have the ability to possess "gently" but is never interested in doing so except for Nagini?<< Or maybe there's something special about Nagini herself? I'm thinking of the Black Riders' steeds in LOTR, able to endure their undead riders though all other animals panic in their presence. Ginny has no memory of her blacked out periods, so she may have experienced pain that she doesn't remember. In fact Riddle says that when he made her go down to the Chamber, she "struggled and cried." Pippin From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 18:04:06 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:04:06 -0000 Subject: Harry dies!!! In-Reply-To: <001d01c39687$b1ad45a0$cd6509d4@John> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote: > May be Harry Potter dies, but in book 6 rather than book 7. Somehow Harry is in a fight with one of the death eaters and loses. But rather than death he becomes a 'vapour' just like Voldemort was in the first three books. As in the prophecy '.either must die at the hand.' it would imply that if someone else kill him, he doesn't die. > > JK has made many references to how Harry may not be alive after Hogwarts. She has been suggesting that Harry will die, but letting everyone believe it is at the final chapter of book 7. > > Other web sites have been saying in book 6 we go to the grave of Harry's parents. Dumbledore could re birth Harry, but in doing so sacrifice himself. > > Just a thought.... Richard here ... One might think that many Potter fans WANT Harry to die in combat with Voldemort, given the number of ardor of so many of the pronouncements I've seen posted here. You, at least, don't seem so eager to see Harry's death, but still, I can't see JKR leaving Voldemort alive, and the phrasing of the prophecy (if that prophecy is in fact correct in detail) states that only one of them will die at the hands of the other. Ergo, the other is left alive at least for a while. I also can't see JKR using the same kind of device she used in preserving Voldemort for his battles with Harry to preserve Harry through a death. In point of fact, the scenario you suggest does NOT entail Harry dying at all, since he must remain alive at least in spirit within this World for him to be restored (not resurrected) in the manner Voldemort was. However, as JKR has indicated that last chapter of book 7 may well be an epilogue, so she can tie up the later lives (or fates, or destinies, if you wish) of the numerous characters of interest, I can see Harry surviving his battles with Voldemort AND Voldemort's death only to die of old age (or any of a number of other causes) in the epilogue. Thus, JKR can avoid the "red herring" suggested by her "may not live" comment, while letting Harry have a somewhat normal life following Voldemort's demise. Under such circumstances, it would be more accurate to say that JKR had thrown us all a curve ball ... hitting the strike zone, but not where we expected it. Richard, who thinks that some folks are rather reckless in the speculations From grannybat at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 18:05:03 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:05:03 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83261 o_caipora started it: > > > > > ... I couldn't help but wonder if Hogwarts' sex education > > > course is consistent with the rest of the curriculum > > > > > Laura: > > > > If so, that's another class Snape won't be teaching. *grins* > > come to think of it, who would? Maybe Madam Hooch-the gym > > teachers often get stuck doing the health-related stuff. > > ... In any case, let's hope that the teaching > > is confined to lecture and discussion... > > Annemehr: > > So, "Wands away," then? > > Obviously, that's the job for a "chastened" Dolores Umbridge. Some time ago I read a delightful short piece on FanFiction.net wherein Snape had to teach Sex Ed. (He got the job because that year he drew the short straw.) True to form, he uses the subject as an opportunity to humiliate Harry and make the other Gryffindor boys squirm. Also perfectly in character, I think--Snape himself was acutely uncomfortable with the subject. "This is a lecture, not a discussion. Any further questions you may have, see Madam Pomfrey." I suppose the Umbridge version would deal with Hermoione and the girls. "There will be no need to talk." (Just to get this out of my brain--I was never bothered by how rarely Harry appears to bathe; the scene in the prefect's bath took care of that. What always set my teeth on edge was that JKR never mentions Harry brushing his! Imagining him going straight to bed after a feast with roast beef and squishy peas and treacle tart clinging his teeth...now THAT'S Too Eeeeeeew!!! To Be True!) Ahem. To bring this back to canon: I don't believe Hogwarts even has a sex ed class. JKR is so timid about broaching subjects sexual that she had Harry's first kiss take place off-page. She never even places conversations between Ron and Harry in the boy's bathroom in order to give us a glimpse of how they learn how to shave. (Hmm, how do budding wizards shave? With wands? With a beard inhibiting potion? With an old-fashioned straight razor? And who would the boys turn to for help? Dumbledore wears a beard, and Snape would just as soon cut their throats). This reticence strikes me as odd when you consider that half of the action in Cos takes place in a girls' restroom, with Myrtle coming out of a toilet and all the bodily functions that implies. I wonder if Myrtle isn't JKR's symbol of uncomfortable sexuality; I found her scene with Harry in The Egg and the Eye hilarious, and the interaction between them rang very true. ("Myrtle! I'm not wearing anything!") Come to think of it, the only adolescent we see demonstrating overt sexual urges is Roger Davies, the Ravenclaw who appears to change girlfriends every month. Davies is at least a year ahead of Harry (but I seem to recall he's in the same year as Cho, and she's two years ahead...isn't she?). Students younger than fourth year just don't appear to exhibit any interest in sex beyond puppy love; even Ginny's crush on Harry was expressed in terms of embarrassed silences and awkward get-well cards. Now that she's gained a bit of confidence, suddenly she's dating a string of boyfriends. My point is that the kids at Hogwarts feel awfully innocent. So I have to wonder: Is this reluctance to address sexual issue reflective of the larger British society, or is it meant to express yet another discomforting little social flaw that the Wizarding World refuses to talk about? I don't think this is just a Flint or another trivial detail that Rowling forgot to mention while constructing her world. The issues of blood purity, Squibs, and family allegiances cannot be divorced from sexuality. The looming war will force these issues to explode, and I'm betting that more than one dirty little skeleton will fall out of more than one family closet. (Crouch/Winky, anyone?) It would help, I think, to have a baseline from which to theorize. Would any of the Brits care to expound on the general state of sex education in the British boarding school system? Smelling salts at hand, Grannybat From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 18:30:00 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:30:00 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83262 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: > o_caipora started it: > > > > >> > To bring this back to canon: I don't believe Hogwarts even has a sex > ed class. JKR is so timid about broaching subjects sexual that she > had Harry's first kiss take place off-page. She never even places > conversations between Ron and Harry in the boy's bathroom in order to > give us a glimpse of how they learn how to shave. Snip > > This reticence strikes me as odd when you consider that half of the > action in Cos takes place in a girls' restroom, with Myrtle coming > out of a toilet and all the bodily functions that implies. I wonder > if Myrtle isn't JKR's symbol of uncomfortable sexuality; I found her > scene with Harry in The Egg and the Eye hilarious, and the > interaction between them rang very true. ("Myrtle! I'm not wearing > anything!") > > Come to think of it, the only adolescent we see demonstrating overt > sexual urges is Roger Davies, the Ravenclaw who appears to change > girlfriends every month. Davies is at least a year ahead of Harry > (but I seem to recall he's in the same year as Cho, and she's two > years ahead...isn't she?). Students younger than fourth year just > don't appear to exhibit any interest in sex beyond puppy love; even > Ginny's crush on Harry was expressed in terms of embarrassed silences > and awkward get-well cards. Now that she's gained a bit of > confidence, suddenly she's dating a string of boyfriends. > > My point is that the kids at Hogwarts feel awfully innocent. > > So I have to wonder: Is this reluctance to address sexual issue > reflective of the larger British society, or is it meant to express > yet another discomforting little social flaw that the Wizarding World > refuses to talk about? June: Other races have sex - the English have hot water bottles (from "How to be an Alien" by George ??? anyone remember the name? > > I don't think this is just a Flint or another trivial detail that > Rowling forgot to mention while constructing her world. The issues of > blood purity, Squibs, and family allegiances cannot be divorced from > sexuality. The looming war will force these issues to explode, and > I'm betting that more than one dirty little skeleton will fall out of > more than one family closet. (Crouch/Winky, anyone?) June: Now that's twisted... > > It would help, I think, to have a baseline from which to theorize. > Would any of the Brits care to expound on the general state of sex > education in the British boarding school system? > > Smelling salts at hand, > Grannybat June: OK it's a tough job but someone has to do it. (Spits on hands, rubs them together). Hogwarts imho is set sometime about twenty years ago... which sorta takes me back to school. I wasn't part of the British Public (ie Posh) school system but I went to a grammar school which was the next echelon down (you passed an entrance exam but your parents did not pay fees). Sex education - zero, zilch, unless you count the sex life of an amoeba, and other single celled organisms ( and I recall they were not very well... sexy...). No, friends, I found out most of my info from whispered discussions with other girls who had more advanced thinking parents than me (my parents never told me nowt either) and I remember being horrified by everything I heard. Which may account for a great many factors in later life . Now in Hogwarts they aren't even looking at amoebas because the curriculum is somewhat different. So the nearest you will get to any discussion of sex is going to be the kind of wink wink, snigger snigger, double entendre that we repressed brits excel in. "Can I see Uranus, Lavender?" and that kind of thing. This of course is why some of the characters might be so weird (wearing my amateur psychiatrist's hat now). Because they have wholesale the british attitudes to thingy, rudies, rumpy pumpy, how's your father, a jolly good seeing to*, sorry too embarrassed to call it sex. (Blushes furiously). This is why we have "le vice anglais" - ask any public schoolboy alumnus what that is.** That is why we are so weird. Love in a cold climate. June *One day I might just prepare a master list of the British euphemisms for sex. Well perhaps not. ** Le Vice Anglais is the french (who are bloody weird themselves) being rude about the fact that the stripes on the old school tie are often matched by the stripes on the old school bottom. This especially obtains when one has been to a very good old public school. From abush at maine.rr.com Tue Oct 21 16:41:28 2003 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:41:28 -0000 Subject: Subject: Re: Harry dies!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83263 > Pilotjb3 writes: > JK has made many references to how Harry may not be alive after > Hogwarts. She has been suggesting that Harry will die, but letting > everyone believe it is at the final chapter of book 7. > >then Geoff writes: the conditional tense for example - "may not be alive", "suggesting >that". >I have a feeling (and I hope I'm right) that she is twisting our >tails and at the end, Harry will be there with Jo Rowling saying in >effect "Ha! Fooled you. You were all expecting me to kill him off >and >I didn't!"> kylie responds: I hope you're right, geoff...still it seems JKR is preparing us with comments through the series like "there are things worse than death" and "to the well-organized mind death is the next great adventure". Perhaps she is just preparing us for Sirius' death or the death of other major characters not including Harry, but still I worry she may kill our boy off to rid herself of speculation of further books after 7. kylie From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 17:29:59 2003 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:29:59 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "augustinapeach" wrote: > Ever since finding out that Snape is spying on Voldemort for > Dumbledore, I've wondered how he can get away with it. In PS/SS, > Voldemort was on the back of Quirrell's head while Snape was warning > Q to figure out "where his loyalties lie" (quote may be wrong, don't > have books with me here). Even through that purple turban, he was > bound to have heard the conversation. Then in GoF, it's likely > Crouch Jr., posing as Moody, overheard sensitive information that he > passed on to Voldemort via the eagle owl. So it seems to me that > Voldemort would know where *Snape's* loyalties lie. All that makes > convince them he is still a loyal DE and that makes him useful > enough to keep alive? Is he being set up for a scene in which V > reveals that he knows Snape is a double agent before killing Snape? Yeah I've been wondering that a lot lately too, but in OotP, Sirius tells Harry that Snape is a very skilled Occlumens, and apparently these Occlumens can hide their thoughts from others, and thats what I presumed Snape was doing. But your point brings up a question, why is Voldy keeping Snape on, when we are led to believe in GoF that he is aware of losing Snape? I think that Snape is definitely the one who V is referring to here, as I don't think JK would have put that in for the sake of it. I wuold say that even though Snape is a skilled Occlumens, Voldy used something... maybe Snape's anger and frustration at MWPP, we all know that he pretty much loses it every time they are brought up... and saw through Snape's defences to confirm what he already suspected. I would think that V is now waiting for Snape to become a more valuable character: I doubt that anyone save Dumbledore would miss him at the moment. And then Snape will heroicly die. And everyone would miss him. Personally he's my favourite character, but I still think he'll be killed off. Sorry, I've probably been doing a whole lot of rambling... *~evil_sushi From tiggersong at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 18:11:41 2003 From: tiggersong at yahoo.com (tiggersong) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:11:41 -0000 Subject: Petunia's knowledge? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83265 Something struck me the other day as I was recycling my weeks worth of newspapers. Harry took a subscription to the Daily Prophet over the summer, but only read the first page of each issue before tossing them out. I assume Petunia is the one who actually empties the bedroom trash cans into the big one in back of the house. So, has she been reading them? She did seem ...well informed about the WW. Possibly more recently informed than she "should" be. Stasia From kneazle256 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 18:34:27 2003 From: kneazle256 at yahoo.com (kneazle256) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:34:27 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83266 grannybat84112 wrote: My point is that the kids at Hogwarts feel awfully innocent. So I have to wonder: Is this reluctance to address sexual issue reflective of the larger British society, or is it meant to express yet another discomforting little social flaw that the Wizarding World refuses to talk about? kneazle responds: I'm not a Brit. But I have always seen the WW as somewhat Victorian when it comes to sexual politics. People marry young--most married couples we hear about to have started their relationships while at Hogwarts. Not marrying seems to be an acceptable life choice as well-- an extremely Victorian sort of choice. Ron has rather antiquated opinions regarding Scarlet Women in GoF and given the response to Skeeter's articles, his views seems shared by a significant percentage of the Wizarding world. I am not even sure what 'dating' means at Hogwarts. Do they go to Hogsmeade together? Chat in hallways? Sneak into a broom closet every now and again? The students are rarely, if ever, really alone. The Common Rooms are always full, and they sleep in dorms. Sneaking out seems extremely hazardous. Even the trio, with an invisibility cloak and the maruaders map, have any number of close shaves sneaking around after hours. Plus there Filch, Mrs Norris, ghosts and Peeves always seem to be wandering around 24 hrs a day. Kneazle From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 19:03:26 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:03:26 -0000 Subject: Copyright and Rita Skeeter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83267 "Matt" wrote: > This is getting a bit off-topic, but the typical > arrangement for publication in a periodical -- > at least by a correspondent such as Rita -- is > a license for publication in that particular > issue, not a sale of the copyright or a work- > for-hire relationship. An interesting discussion of electronic reprint can be found on the site of the Science Fiction Writers of America, at http://www.sfwa.org/beware/electronic.html The URL says most of it right there. > As a result, Sue (post #83035) is correct in > suggesting that the Quibbler would not (again > applying RW custom and legal principles) have > the right to relicense for publication in a > different periodical. Judging from the Quibbler's jornalistic principles, it's possible that its contract is not entirely fair to authors, retaining all possible rights. Entirely irrevantly, one of the Quibbler's real-life equivalents, the "Weekly World News", used to have as an employment test supplying a headline (e.g. "Elvis in love nest with Bigfoot"), with the applicant to pen an artile that fit. I believe "The Onion" is actually produced that way: headlines are approved and articles then written. > Caipora, your experience may be different if > you made a work for hire or sold your entire > copyright. Or, alternatively, maybe you should > be asking your licensee for compensation for > those Internet pieces.... :) Op-ed pieces are done for prestige or to push a viewpoint, the payment being token. So one wants them reproduced, the more widely the better. I also had one Internet piece pirated and published in a magazine. Same principle applies, though. :) - Caipora From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Oct 21 19:15:27 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:15:27 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: Because of the order in which Remus tells about the > Marauders, I made the assumption that the prank followed > chronologically after the Marauders learned to transform. But > that's not necessarily the case, is it? If it weren't for Remus's > offhand remark about Snape, the prank might not have come up at > all. Furthermore, Sirius and James could have known where Remus > went on full moon nights well before they learned the animagus > spell. So when *did* the prank happen? And what, if any, are the > differing ramifications of it happening before pensieve 2 or after > pensieve 2? Or do I just need to get a life? Oh, good. I was hoping that somebody would pick up on this one. In fact, the original question came in two parts. Both might have answers that dent some illusions. 1. When in their school careers did the 'Prank' take place? I surmised that it took place sometime before their final year and also before the 'underwear episode'. Laura wonders whether it happened even further back, pre-Animagi, not something I had considered. (VG and A+ grade to Laura.) This would make it even more interesting. If the Gang knew about Remus being incarcerated in the Shack, but were not yet able to master the Animagus transformation, it was probably much earlier than we have previously surmised. Perhaps their third or fourth year - does that sound reasonable? Before then it would be unlikely that they had enough magical training under their belts to attempt the spell, later than that and there might not be enough time for Pettigrew to finally master the trick (he supposedly took a long time to learn it) and for other associated events to have taken place. 2. What if the 'Prank' was the first overt clash between Snape and the Gang? It has always bothered me that Snape trusted Sirius' information and blithely wandered down that passageway. But if there was no history of fights between them, why shouldn't he? We know (or assume) that the Gang did not particularly like Snape, Sirius goes on about him nosing around, prying. But it need not have gone much further than a generalised dislike. A "We don't mix much with Slytherin" sort of thing. Could it be that Rash!Sirius decided to teach Snape a lesson for asking too many questions? If this was the first clash, no wonder Snape was pissed about what happened. A 15 year old thrown to a werewolf. Oh, dear! It would explain much about the undying hatred Snape nutures. It also causes me to wonder where the Gang got the idea of becoming Animagi. Dumbledore, perhaps? Making sure that Remus' friends could guard him and make sure it never happened again? I've never believed that DD didn't know about their Animagus activities and I've wondered why he didn't do anything about it, but if he actively encouraged it as an extra safeguard.... Kneasy From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 19:26:37 2003 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:26:37 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle256" wrote: > > > I am not even sure what 'dating' means at Hogwarts. Do they go to > Hogsmeade together? Chat in hallways? Sneak into a broom closet every > now and again? > > The students are rarely, if ever, really alone. The Common Rooms are > always full, and they sleep in dorms. Sneaking out seems extremely > hazardous. Even the trio, with an invisibility cloak and the > maruaders map, have any number of close shaves sneaking around after > hours. Plus there Filch, Mrs Norris, ghosts and Peeves always seem to > be wandering around 24 hrs a day. > Kneazle I'm not a Brit, either, but there are a lot of things that, it seems to me, are left out of the books, perhaps because adults would think that it's not be appropriate for a child to read about such goings- on, but which happen so often. A friend of mine went to an excellent boarding school here in the states for high school and described it as "a four year orgy of sex and snorting Ritilin." One hears about certain unsavory practices at unisex schools, especially British ones, yet there haven't been any jokes at all so far about the older kids "buggering the first years." Finally in OotP, we got some refernces to parties including cases of firewhiskey and certain stimulents used for studying for OWLS. I'm not suggesting that the series should turn into "Fear and Loathing in Hogwarts," but I'm glad to see intimations of real life in there. I think the other reason that we haven't seen much of the party life at Hogwarts is that the books are written from HP's POV, and HP has bigger problems to deal with, like LV trying to kill him. He is, to some extent, alienated by his past and his fate. TK -- Tigerpatronus From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 19:31:13 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The One Boy Who Lived (FILK) Message-ID: <20031021193113.8932.qmail@web60205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83270 Eowynn: This is a first (and probably last) attempt at a filk. I am more than a little nervous to put it out there, but it isn't like there are a lot of you who know me. So why not,... right? OK this is to Kenny Loggins version of The Last Unicorn on his Return to Pooh Corner album. When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the first tear is shed for the boy who was orphaned In the stillness of the shadows where they can't be seen or heard They will stare unbelieving at the one boy who lived When the first breath of terror from the young boy is leaving And the first cries of pain from his servant that's bleeding He will rise up from the ashes he will haunt our heroes dreams Through the darkness hear his laughter it is Lord Voldemort "I am whole...I am whole!" When the last owl flies over the last fallin' tower And the last spell is cast reminded of a lost fallin' guardian They look into the ru'ns where through the dust a path is torn look and see him in the distance it's the one boy who lives " He's alive...He's alive..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Oct 21 19:32:43 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:32:43 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > June: > Other races have sex - the English have hot water bottles (from "How > to be an Alien" by George ??? anyone remember the name? > It was Georges Mikes (pronounced Mee-kesh) Hungarian by birth. I think Hogwarts is a one off. Can you think of any other boarding school in the UK that admits both sexes from age eleven? I can't. I can remember the fuss a few years back when Eton admitted girls to the sixth form, but no other co-educational boarding schools. Like you, I went to a Grammar School. A hot bed (!) of sexual fantasies. We did have some sex education (one 45 minute lecture) but that was in the 50s. The only things we learned was the correct terminology for the slang we had been using for the previous couple of years. If Hogwarts were filled with examples of the average Brit teenager, you'd need cattle-prods to keep 'em apart. Is there something JKR is not telling us? Bromide in the Pumpkin juice? Kneasy From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 19:50:50 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:50:50 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > > June: > > Other races have sex - the English have hot water bottles (from "How > > to be an Alien" by George ??? anyone remember the name? > > > > It was Georges Mikes (pronounced Mee-kesh) Hungarian by birth. > > I think Hogwarts is a one off. > > Can you think of any other boarding school in the UK that admits both > sexes from age eleven? I can't. I can remember the fuss a few years back > when Eton admitted girls to the sixth form, but no other co- educational > boarding schools. June: Bedales, dear boy... > > Like you, I went to a Grammar School. A hot bed (!) of sexual fantasies. > We did have some sex education (one 45 minute lecture) but that was in > the 50s. The only things we learned was the correct terminology for the > slang we had been using for the previous couple of years. > > If Hogwarts were filled with examples of the average Brit teenager, you'd > need cattle-prods to keep 'em apart. > > Is there something JKR is not telling us? Bromide in the Pumpkin juice? > > Kneasy Yes, the local comprehensive sink is a horror show of sexuality. I would have thought that the fact that the little horrors (meaning Hogwarts pupils in particular, and teenagers in general) were under the same roof would be a licence to .... pick your term. Perhaps there's an anti sex mechanism like the anti apparition thing? Otherwise the Room of Requirement will be .... required all the time... Sniggers in typical British way. June From grannybat at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 20:08:13 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:08:13 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British - The Crouch Family Saga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83273 It is, indeed, a tough job, but June has to do it. > > To bring this back to canon: I don't believe Hogwarts even has a > > sex ed class. JKR is so timid about broaching subjects sexual > > that she had Harry's first kiss take place off-page. > > > > Is this reluctance to address sexual issue reflective of > > the larger British society, or is it meant to express > > yet another discomforting little social flaw that the Wizarding > > World refuses to talk about? > > >...The issues of blood > > purity, Squibs, and family allegiances cannot be divorced from > > sexuality. The looming war will force these issues to explode, > > and I'm betting that more than one dirty little skeleton will > > fall out of more than one family closet. (Crouch/Winky, anyone?) June: > Now that's twisted... Thanks, but I didn't originate that SHIP. The Elkins did, in her monumental Crouch Family Saga. The Crouch/Winky possibility is explored in Post #47966. If you haven't read all nine parts of this epic plus the replies, run- -don't walk--thru your HP4GU archive search. Don't be put off by the sheer size of the posts; the writing alone is worth the time and effort. She may not mean to, but The Elkins sets the bar for literary analysis on this list. > > It would help, I think, to have a baseline from which to > > theorize. Would any of the Brits care to expound on the general > > state of sex education in the British boarding school system? June: > > Hogwarts imho is set sometime about twenty years ago... which sorta > takes me back to school. .... Sex education - zero, zilch, unless > you count the sex life of an amoeba.... No, friends, I found > out most of my info from whispered discussions with other girls who > had more advanced thinking parents than me ( > > Now in Hogwarts they aren't even looking at amoebas .... So the >nearest you will get to > any discussion of sex is going to be the kind of wink wink, snigger > snigger, double entendre that we repressed brits excel in. "Can I > see Uranus, Lavender?" and that kind of thing. I suspected as much. Still, I'd like to hear from a few more repressed Brits before I launch into this wholesale. > *One day I might just prepare a master list of the British > euphemisms for sex. Well perhaps not. Please do. We may bump into a couple of those phrases in Book 6. > ** Le Vice Anglais is the french (who are bloody weird themselves) > being rude about the fact that the stripes on the old school tie > are often matched by the stripes on the old school bottom. Rep striped pants? That's something I haven't seen on the PBS mysteries. Yet. Grannybat who's wishing The Elkins would quit scraping floral wallpaper and start digging thru the Black family closets From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 20:08:14 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does Snape get away with it? Message-ID: <20031021200814.76672.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83274 21Oct03 sachmet96 wrote: "...If this is true,(the fact that LV knows that Snape has left him forever) then Snape can't be spying directly on Voldemort.There must be another way for him to spy (maybe he has a spy network or something like that). " Paula: After reading recent posts, I think that Snapes spying activities could be tied in with his skills with potions. Must search through canon to find hints. Snape is not the type of character to be involved in a network/group type activity. He's a loner. Remember how his fellow OotP member, Sirius, reacted when Snape showed up at his house to talk to Harry. No, he's probably cooking up something. Anyone find hints to explain what Snape could be up to? Maybe dragon blood will figure in here too. Paula "Griff" Gaon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 20:09:38 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Harry's dragon blood & and the Eyes (Re: 12 uses for Dragons ....) Message-ID: <20031021200938.50289.qmail@web40020.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83275 21Oct03 "grannybat84112" wrote: "...knocking out a single dragon requires stunning spells cast by half a dozen full-grown wizards...perhaps dragon's blood is an essential ingredient in the most powerful protective spells." Paula now: Thanks, grannybat, this whole business of dragon's blood has been nagging at me. I've been wondering where dragon's blood is going to figure into the scheme of things. Jen wrote: "...So he's vulnerable in the eyes like a dragon-- what if he actually has some dragon blood in him now or is protected by "essence of dragon blood"? Paula again: This could be a good explanation why all throughout canon why we're constantly reminded of Harry's bad vision. True to form, JKR has brought this up for a reason I'm sure. Jen: "It could help explain why nobody could stun or AK Harry at the graveyard. ..." Paula: It's bothered me all throughout the series how Harry keeps surviving. Really, how could a baby survive the AV curse? And, why did the AV kill Cedric and not Harry (besides the fact that we still have 2 more books to go.) One of the things that I really appreciate about JKR is the plot machinations of the best mystery writers. I'm definitely tossing my hat into this ring. Jen: "Then there's the whole deal about Lily and Harry's "green almond- shaped" eyes and the Common Welsh Green Dragon, when Lily is supposedly from Wales. ...Perhaps the Welsh Green was used in the "ancient magic" protective spell performed by DD, Snape and Hagrid?" Paula: Wow! This is beautiful; ties everything into a neat package: DD's equal magical ability to that of LV, Snape's knowledge and expertise of Potions and DD's refusal to let him leave the post of Potions Master to teach DADA, and of course Snape's resentment towards Harry, (Or maybe Snape's so tough on Harry because he knows that Harry's continued survival will depend on a strong potion skills; the dragon blood potion may one day expire.) and finally Hagrid's love, access, and knowledge to magical creatures. These facts certainly explain why DD supports Snape and Hagrid so strongly. Jen: Hmmm...count me in on a TBAY for this one--very interesting. Paula: Me too! You just rescued me from a bout of PPD. I'm all set to start searching canon for more clues. Until now, I've never completely trusted Snape; thought like Sirius that maybe he hadn't completely reformed. Now I'm ready to give him a chance. Paula "Griff" Gaon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 20:14:31 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:14:31 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83276 Kneasy wrote: >It also causes me to wonder where the Gang got the idea of becoming Animagi. Dumbledore, perhaps? Making sure that Remus' friends could guard him and make sure it never happened again? I've never believed that DD didn't know about their Animagus activities and I've wondered why he didn't do anything about it, but if he actively encouraged it as an extra safeguard....< An extra safeguard against Lupin the werewolf hurting anybody else each month? Lupin posed more of a danger running around with his animagus friends than he did locked up in the Shrieking Shack, the prank being an exception. Sirius and James may have been "able to keep a werewolf in check"* but as Hermione pointed out "That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf! What if you'd given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?"* And Lupin agreed: "And there were near misses, many of them."* If he'd been locked up in the Shrieking Shack like a good little werewolf instead of having his friends let him out every month for some fun and adventure, he would have posed a threat to no one other than himself. I agree, I don't see either how Dumbledore could not have known about the Marauders being animagi. I even have no problem believing he encouraged their little project. But I don't think it had anything to do with keeping people protected from Lupin. KathyK (still thinking the prank took place sometime after Pensieve 2) *All quotes are from PoA US paperback ed, 355 From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 20:20:28 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:20:28 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British - The Crouch Family Saga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: >> > > ** Le Vice Anglais is the french (who are bloody weird themselves) > > being rude about the fact that the stripes on the old school tie > > are often matched by the stripes on the old school bottom. > > Rep striped pants? That's something I haven't seen on the PBS > mysteries. Yet. We're not talking about pants here... "Le Vice Anglais" and enthusiasm for it is believed to originate from the fine old school custom of corporal punishment (caning - entre nous). The stripes are put on the OSB by the cane. I humbly grovel at the feet of the list elves and promise I will say no more about this (yes I know it's getting perilously OT!) June From grannybat at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 20:21:59 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:21:59 -0000 Subject: Snape Has Left Him Forever? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83278 Syd got my attention: > > For Obsessive!Snapefans, that's more than just a trivial tidbit. > > Ah, I fully understand the earthshaking importance of such things, > Grannybat! > > Just go to message no. 7901 Quoting the relevant paragraph from the referenced post: >Back in October/November one of the posters on Jenna's UHPFC board >attended a reading that JKR did in Vancouver. She reported that >afterwards there was a Q&A session, during which JKR was asked >straight out who the three "missing" Death Eaters were.JKR gave a >reply which apparently made it obvious that the faithful servant was >Barty, the coward was Karkaroff - and the one who had left forever >and who would be killed was Snape. ARRRRRRRGH! We still don't have JKR's exact words! "Apparently made it obvious"--that's how ALL of JKR's verbal clues work! We can't pick apart her words without a direct quote!! We need details, man, details!!!! Can anyone associated with The Leaky Cauldron help us here? The specifics would be greatly appreciated. Grannybat pinning her ladylike coif back into place From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 21 20:27:45 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:27:45 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: <20031021200814.76672.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Paula Gaon wrote: > > 21Oct03 > >> After reading recent posts, I think that Snapes spying activities could be tied in with his skills with potions. Must search through canon to find hints. Snape is not the type of character to be involved in a network/group type activity. He's a loner. Remember how his fellow OotP member, Sirius, reacted when Snape showed up at his house to talk to Harry. No, he's probably cooking up something. Anyone find hints to explain what Snape could be up to? Maybe dragon blood will figure in here too. > June: Well I don't know -why is everyone waiting so eagerly for his report in OOP Chapter 4: [Molly greets Harry and tell him he'll have to wait for dinner...] "She turned to the gang of wizards behind him and whispered urgently "He's just arrived, the meeting's started." The wizards behind Harry all made noises of interest and excitement and began filing past him towards the door through which Mrs Weasley had just come." There - that's Snape they are talking about. Now he may not be exactly ready for the cocktail party circuit yet, but that, imho is a guy who can network and is working with others - well. June From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 20:37:13 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:37:13 -0000 Subject: Book 1: Learning to Fly Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83280 I don't know if this was every brought up, but a friend of mine brought this up and I don't remember reading about it (on this site). Is there a possibility that Neville's broom was hexed when he was learning to fly? There is some real similarity with the way Neville's broom reacted and the way Harry broom reacted during the Q game. Sounds interesting to me, but I don't know how it could be. What do you all think? Thanks! Stephanie From s_karmol at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 20:53:54 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:53:54 -0000 Subject: Petunia's knowledge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tiggersong" wrote: > Something struck me the other day as I was recycling my weeks worth > of newspapers. > > Harry took a subscription to the Daily Prophet over the summer, but > only read the first page of each issue before tossing them out. > > I assume Petunia is the one who actually empties the bedroom trash > cans into the big one in back of the house. So, has she been reading > them? She did seem ...well informed about the WW. Possibly more > recently informed than she "should" be. > > Stasia Stephanie says: This might be valid reasoning for her to know about the dementors...I think she did initially hear about them from Lily and James, but he memory might have been jogged by the newspapers... Interesting, very interesting. From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 21:00:49 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:00:49 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83282 I'm fairly sure one of Rowling's sources is Kipling's "Stalky & Co". Set in a boarding school, has a Trio, etc. Out of copyright, it's available online. The chapter most on-topic to this discussion is available here: http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/prose /DebtsandCredits/unitedidolaters.html Kipling was of course Victorian. Even so, his meaning is clear. Here's a dialog between the Head and the Chaplain: --- `And he doesn't approve of Our institutions? You say he is On the Track?eh? He suspects the worst? ` The School Chaplain nodded. `We-ell. I should say that that was the one tendency we had not developed. Setting aside we haven't even a curtain in a dormitory, let alone a lock to any form-room door?there has to be tradition in these things.' `So I believe. So, indeed, one knows. And?'tisn't as if I ever preached on personal purity either.' --- Hogwarts of course has curtains even on beds, and students never seem to have any trouble getting together out of sight of teachers. I wouldn't call Rowling entirely reticent. When Harry is in the Prefect's Bath, Millicent peeks at him. St. Augustine tells us that "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." If even a spirit cannot withstand a bit of sexual curiosity, what can we assume of flesh in the grip of adolescent hormones? Recall too the mandrakes, and their marks of maturation: acne, wild parties, and finally moving into each other's pots. Surely there aren't two ways for an adult to read that - though readers too young to understand will miss the meaning. The author of the original Hardy Boys books, Leslie McFarlane, says in his autobiography ("Ghost of the Hardy Boys" - read it if you can find it) that the lack of sex was stifling. He says he always wanted to send the Dana sisters (girl detectives) and the Hardy boys together into one of the many abandoned houses abounding in Bayport, as "It might have done the four of them no end of good." Lastly, I recently read somewhere that at Eton, a boy who is caught in bed with a girl is expelled. If he's caught in bed with a boy, he's suspended. Can any British readers shed some light on this? - Caipora From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Tue Oct 21 21:04:52 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:04:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard References: Message-ID: <000501c39816$f91d5f20$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 83283 > > (Q1) Harry is a teenage boy who at this stage in the story is > > lacking any guidance, but does he have a hygiene problem? I think it's safe to say that Harry wouldn't have felt self-conscious about his hair being unbrushed if that was his normal appearance. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 21 21:57:01 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:57:01 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83284 Kneasy: > It also causes me to wonder where the Gang got the idea of becoming Animagi< Remus says they got it from him: " They did something for me that would not only make my transformations not only bearable, but the best times of my life. They became Animagi [Dumbledore] never knew I had led three fellow students into becoming Animagi illegally."PoA 18 It makes sense to me that Remus, who would naturally try to learn all he could about his condition, would have discovered the information about werewolves and the Animagus transformation. My belief is that the prank happened in 6th year after the P2 incident. We don't know that Snape entered the tunnel of free will. He could have been Imperius'd or confunded. But James did risk his life by entering the tunnel even if he could already do the transformation. There wouldn't have been room for an antlered stag to maneuver in the tunnel and Lupin would have torn him apart to get at Snape. Pippin From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 21 22:37:16 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:37:16 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle256" wrote: > The students are rarely, if ever, really alone. The Common Rooms are > always full, and they sleep in dorms. Sneaking out seems extremely > hazardous. Even the trio, with an invisibility cloak and the > maruaders map, have any number of close shaves sneaking around after > hours. Plus there Filch, Mrs Norris, ghosts and Peeves always seem to > be wandering around 24 hrs a day. There are however two instances where we are lead to believe that there is some of that going on. In CoS Percy and Penelope sneak to the dungeons. More interestingly, in GoF Mrs. Weasley reminisces about how the former caretaker caught her and Arthur at 4 in the morning outside their dorms and beat Arthur up. What else could they have been doing out of their dorms at such an hour? I expect we'll get some of that as the kids mature, but it will not get more explicite. JKR wants to keep this readable by 9 year olds. This puts certain restrictions on what she can put in print. Incidentally, I have a 15 year old boy and he is fairly clueless too when it comes to girls. I think the portrayal of the kids in that respect is actually fairly realistic for their age. Salit From snapesmate at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 22:39:28 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:39:28 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "augustinapeach" > wrote: > > Ever since finding out that Snape is spying on Voldemort for > > Dumbledore, I've wondered how he can get away with it. In PS/SS, > > Voldemort was on the back of Quirrell's it's likely > > Crouch Jr., posing as Moody, overheard sensitive information that > he passed on to Voldemort via the eagle owl. So it seems to me that Voldemort would know where *Snape's* loyalties lie. Is he being set up for a scene in which V reveals that he knows Snape is a double agent before killing Snape? > > > in OotP, Sirius > tells Harry that Snape is a very skilled Occlumens, and apparently > these Occlumens can hide their thoughts from others, and thats what I presumed Snape was doing.> But your point brings up a question, why is Voldy keeping Snape on, > when we are led to believe in GoF that he is aware of losing Snape? > > *~evil_sushi I wonder about all this too. I wonder about A LOT of things in the HP books, LOL! However... In GoF, we assume Voldemeort is speaking of Snape as "one who has left me for good and will be killed of course" and Barty Crouch Jr. as the one who has "returned to my service" and (paraphrasing)"made that evenings events" possible. What if Snape was the one who had "returned to his (Voldemort's) service"? Maybe there is someone else who has left Voldemort for good (maybe Filch, even if he is a squib?). I still think Snape would be a double agent pretending to have returned to the DEs, not actually have rejoined them. Well, that is one theory. I do not see how Snape can be so close to Lucius Malfoy unless he (Snape) is a double, well "triple" agent though. Sirius called Snape "Lucius Malfoy's lapdog in OotP. Lucius appears to be a dedicated Volemort supporter and active DE. Is this friendship an act on Snape's part? Or, are Lucius and Snape pursuing their own agenda? We know Malfoy hated Dumbledore, since he keeps trying to get rid of him. We know Malfoy Sr and Jr hate Harry, and Snape appears to hate him as well. Now, at the end of OotP we know Malfoy Sr. was sent to Azkaban, so it will be interesting to see if Snape still obtains Voldemort and DE information... Lynnette, who thinks Snape is a good guy, but a not-so-nice person! From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Oct 21 23:00:06 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:00:06 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > 1. When in their school careers did the 'Prank' take place? > I surmised that it took place sometime before their final year and also > before the 'underwear episode'. Laura wonders whether it happened > even further back, pre-Animagi, not something I had considered. > (VG and A+ grade to Laura.) This would make it even more interesting. I doubt it happened that early. And I'm basing that on Snape's words to Dumbledore in PoA regarding Sirius, saying that he "showed himself capable of murder at sixteen." Granted, he didn't spell it out for us, but unless there were *two* incidents where Snape felt his life was in danger, then I have to think he's referring to "the prank" here. > If the Gang knew about Remus being incarcerated in the Shack, but were > not yet able to master the Animagus transformation, it was probably > much earlier than we have previously surmised. Perhaps their third > or fourth year - does that sound reasonable? Before then it would be > unlikely that they had enough magical training under their belts to > attempt the spell, later than that and there might not be enough time > for Pettigrew to finally master the trick (he supposedly took a long time > to learn it) and for other associated events to have taken place. Remus says in Capter 18 PoA that the boys managed the Animagus transformation in their 5th year. > 2. What if the 'Prank' was the first overt clash between Snape and the Gang? Not if it took place when they were 16... And, if we assume that Dumbledore spoke the truth to Harry in PoA (don't swallow your tongue, Kneasy!), then he (DD) didn't know about it and thus, probably didn't actively encourage WPP in their efforts. I know, he spent time dropping all sorts of hints in their hearing and then turned a blind eye to whatever they might have been up to... Marianne From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Tue Oct 21 23:03:12 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 01:03:12 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F95BB30.6050201@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 83288 grannybat84112 wrote: >[...] > >To bring this back to canon: I don't believe Hogwarts even has a sex >ed class. JKR is so timid about broaching subjects sexual that she >had Harry's first kiss take place off-page. She never even places >conversations between Ron and Harry in the boy's bathroom in order to >give us a glimpse of how they learn how to shave. (Hmm, how do >budding wizards shave? With wands? With a beard inhibiting potion? >With an old-fashioned straight razor? And who would the boys turn to >for help? Dumbledore wears a beard, and Snape would just as soon cut >their throats). > > Wands. Definitely. Morning (and sometimes evening) shave is a major bane of human male existence. >This reticence strikes me as odd when you consider that half of the >action in Cos takes place in a girls' restroom, with Myrtle coming >out of a toilet and all the bodily functions that implies. I wonder >if Myrtle isn't JKR's symbol of uncomfortable sexuality; I found her >scene with Harry in The Egg and the Eye hilarious, and the >interaction between them rang very true. ("Myrtle! I'm not wearing >anything!") > >Come to think of it, the only adolescent we see demonstrating overt >sexual urges is Roger Davies, the Ravenclaw who appears to change >girlfriends every month. Davies is at least a year ahead of Harry >(but I seem to recall he's in the same year as Cho, and she's two >years ahead...isn't she?). Students younger than fourth year just >don't appear to exhibit any interest in sex beyond puppy love; even >Ginny's crush on Harry was expressed in terms of embarrassed silences >and awkward get-well cards. Now that she's gained a bit of >confidence, suddenly she's dating a string of boyfriends. > >My point is that the kids at Hogwarts feel awfully innocent. > > > You missed two other examples: the pair caught by Snape in the bushes during Yule Ball, and Patil's horror when she realised that Crouch/Moody can see through clothes ("Nice socks, Potter!"). But I don't think, that Hogwarts is "awfully innocent". For 15 years old, sex in count-legs-and-divide-by-two sense is quite remote. I mean, for females much more important is all that romantic nonsense: hugging, holding hands, sharing emotions etc. As for boys, most of them at this age are still not sure what the heck is happening with them. Age of sexual initiation is inversely proportional to school grades -- better grades equals later initiation. And Hogwarts consist of creme de la creme of British magical children. And to top that they have their OWLs and lots of homework. You should also take into account that WW teens are not indoctrinated by TV shows, teen magazines and generally speaking pop culture. They are not taught that being a virgin is a bad thing, they are not taught about various sexual techniques, they are not taught that having sex at 14 is normal and they are not taught that love consist mainly of exchange of bodily fluids. They are not taught that they need sex for anything. Regards, Pshemekan -- Force without wisdom falls of its own weight. (Horace, Odes) From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Oct 21 23:19:02 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:19:02 -0000 Subject: How Not to Be Seen? (was Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3,) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > First posted as message 76055:- > Harry becomes very cold flying but experiences real pleasure, > forgetting his problems for the first time in weeks. Harry and co > finally land in an unkempt square in a dilapidated almost slummy > part of London. We are reintroduced to the Put-Outer first used by > Dumbledore at the beginning of PS/ SS. The chapter finishes with > Moody giving Harry written details of the Order of the Phoenix HQ > which he tells Harry to memorise. > > (Q 10) Does the use of the Put Outer here show that it is used > solely as its name implied or is it an indication that Harry is > again provided wit Multi-layered protection without him realising? This section makes me scratch my head. Moody puts a Disillusionment Charm on Harry, rendering him invisible. The whole lot of them fly off on their brooms, and everyone except Harry is perfectly visible, not only to Muggles, but to any Death Eater spies that might be lurking about. They land in a square in the middle of London - a crowd of men and women swooping in on their brooms. And once they've landed and dismounted from their odd form of transport, Moody uses the Put-Outer to put the lights out. Granted, the square in which they've arrived probably doesn't draw a crowd of strollers, and the neighborhood is obviously not one that attracts hordes of toursits, but still, this need for secrecy after the fact strikes me as odd. And before you say that putting out the lights is necessary so that no one will notice the sudden appearance of 12 Grimmauld Place popping up between its neighbors, then how does the house remain invisible when a member of the Order arrives there during daylight hours? Marianne From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Oct 21 23:43:21 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:43:21 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: <3F95BB30.6050201@ipartner.com.pl> References: Message-ID: <3F965139.26107.3FE9193@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 83290 I'm finding all the speculation about sex at Hogwarts, rather interesting - but also rather weird. Just my perspective, but I did attend a school that was in many ways like Hogwarts in the early 1990s, and I know a *lot* of other people who did - and things like dating and sex wasn't really a major part of most people's lives. Very few people dated on any regular basis. If someone did, they weren't considered weird by any means, but it certainly wasn't weird to not be doing those things either. I honestly think those who find the lack of sex at Hogwarts weird are imposing perceptions based on their own experiences on a school environment that is very different to what we see at Hogwarts. To me, Hogwarts seems about right - the kids are not immune to feelings about the other sex, and occasionally somebody does act on them - but most people, most of the time, are more interested in passing their exams - or training for quidditch, or hanging out with their friends, or liberating house elves, or starting a successful practical joke business... sex just isn't a major priority. I watch American TV shows supposedly about teenagers (and I'm not stupid enough to believe those shows are particularly accurate) and the common depiction of how young people date, and how often sex in their minds seems very alien to me. That's because my experiences growing up are different - and I think the same is true of the kids at Hogwarts. What they experience seems very realistic to me. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 22 00:39:01 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:39:01 -0000 Subject: Put-Outer again (Re: How Not to Be Seen? (was Chapter 3) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83291 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > First posted as message 76055:- > > (Q 10) Does the use of the Put Outer here show that it is used > > solely as its name implied or is it an indication that Harry is > > again provided wit Multi-layered protection without him realising? Marianne: > They land in a square in the middle of London - a crowd of men and > women swooping in on their brooms. And once they've landed and > dismounted from their odd form of transport, Moody uses the Put- Outer > to put the lights out. Jen: The Put-outer makes no sense here if it's only for removing the lights. Why risk the entire group being seen while Moody uses the Put-outer for each individual light? This would take a long time and offer every Muggle in the area a clear view of a guy using a "cigarette lighter" to pull the balls of light out of the lamps. And if the Muggles *can't* see the group or 12 Grimmauld Place, why bother removing the lights? There must be more to it. I tend to agree the Put-outer offers protection, not only for Harry but for the Order. Besides taking away the lights, it could also disturb the vision of any Muggles in the area (or anyone outside the Order, I guess). Any other thoughts? From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 22 01:20:21 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 01:20:21 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: <3F95BB30.6050201@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83292 > "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" wrote: >You missed two other examples: the pair caught by Snape in the bushes > during Yule Ball, and Patil's horror when she realised that Crouch/Moody > can see through clothes ("Nice socks, Potter!"). > > But I don't think, that Hogwarts is "awfully innocent". For 15 years > old, sex in count-legs-and-divide-by-two sense is quite remote. I mean, > for females much more important is all that romantic nonsense: hugging, > holding hands, sharing emotions etc. As for boys, most of them at this > age are still not sure what the heck is happening with them. ME: This a sterostype where girls are good and boys are horny at best, if that is, if they manage to figure out what they want. I think I might offer my own testimonial that girls, even at the ages of 15 thru 17, do indeed want and think about sex and *gasp* are doing it. Divide the legs, and way more than that. And I do in fact speak of my own personal experience when I was in high school between 1990-1994. I will grant you that boys this age are more clueless--the norm was usually for girls to date older guys--(think about Hermione/Krum--not that i think they were doing it). > Age of sexual initiation is inversely proportional to school grades -- > better grades equals later initiation. And Hogwarts consist of creme de > la creme of British magical children. And to top that they have their > OWLs and lots of homework. > ME: Ok, to this, all I have to say is....what are you, friggin nuts?!?!? Nu-uh, no way, no how. By this thinking, then Ron should be getting it just slightly less than Neville!!! I 100% disagree--completely. If anything, it's the opposite, where a bright student is also more mature and ready for things of a sexual nature by a younger age. Again, I personally speak from experience here-- Honor roll, student council and all-state athlete here in my day and guess what? I talked my *older* bf into doing it when I was 14! And you want to know what else?? I was not that out of the ordinary! At least--not in my group of friends--who, coincidently were also of the same bright intellect (school, in feact, wasn't all that challenging) and were *model* students--in the Brit way, I probably would have been a prefect. And you know, I would be very surprised if Hermione hasn't already found several charms all related to sex and her own body. There's intresting in books, there are. > You should also take into account that WW teens are not indoctrinated by > TV shows, teen magazines and generally speaking pop culture. They are > not taught that being a virgin is a bad thing, they are not taught about > various sexual techniques, they are not taught that having sex at 14 is > normal and they are not taught that love consist mainly of exchange of > bodily fluids. They are not taught that they need sex for anything. ME: Uh, I think once your hands start doing the walking, it don't take too long to realize what fun sex with someone could be.......TV only helps the fantasies..... > Regards, > Pshemekan Arya--who wonders what magic there is to replace the batteries in her love life......... From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 22 01:32:40 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 01:32:40 -0000 Subject: Put-Outer again (Re: How Not to Be Seen? (was Chapter 3) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83293 "Ali" wrote:(First posted as message 76055): > > > > (Q 10) Does the use of the Put Outer here show that it is used > > > solely as its name implied or is it an indication that Harry is > > > again provided wit Multi-layered protection without him > realising? > > > Marianne: > > > They land in a square in the middle of London - a crowd of men and > > women swooping in on their brooms. And once they've landed and > > dismounted from their odd form of transport, Moody uses the Put- > Outer > > to put the lights out. > > > Jen: The Put-outer makes no sense here if it's only for removing the > lights. Why risk the entire group being seen while Moody uses the > Put-outer for each individual light? This would take a long time and > offer every Muggle in the area a clear view of a guy using > a "cigarette lighter" to pull the balls of light out of the lamps. > > And if the Muggles *can't* see the group or 12 Grimmauld Place, why > bother removing the lights? > > There must be more to it. I tend to agree the Put-outer offers > protection, not only for Harry but for the Order. Besides taking > away the lights, it could also disturb the vision of any Muggles in > the area (or anyone outside the Order, I guess). Any other thoughts? ME: I have always kind of thought that "Put-Outer" was maybe alluding to "put it out of youir mind". Like it's a type of memory charm/notice-me-not thing. If someone saw DD arrive in PS or if they saw the Adv Gd land in OotP, then the use of the "Put-Outer" may make them forget what it is they thought they saw-- wizard and muggle alike. Arya From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 02:03:59 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 02:03:59 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83294 > Kneasy: > > It also causes me to wonder where the Gang got the idea of > becoming Animagi. > Pippin > Remus says they got it from him: " They did something for me > that would not only make my transformations not only bearable, > but the best times of my life. They became Animagi > [Dumbledore] never knew I had led three fellow students into > becoming Animagi illegally."PoA 18 Laura: No, I don't believe that. He says that PP&W "did something for him" but not that he asked them to do it. His use of the phrase "I led" is hyperbole, I think. I read this as Remus's guilt speaking. It would be very out of character for him to encourage his friends to break rules on his behalf, especially such big ones. On the other hand, James and Sirius would love nothing better than an excuse to learn the animagus spell and use it to break even more rules. As Remus says in another context, they'd have thought it highly amusing. From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Wed Oct 22 02:29:02 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 02:29:02 -0000 Subject: Boarding school (WAS: Re: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" wrote: > > >You missed two other examples: the pair caught by Snape in the bushes > > during Yule Ball, and Patil's horror when she realised that Crouch/Moody > > can see through clothes ("Nice socks, Potter!"). > > > > But I don't think, that Hogwarts is "awfully innocent". For 15 years > > old, sex in count-legs-and-divide-by-two sense is quite remote. I mean, > > for females much more important is all that romantic nonsense: hugging, > > holding hands, sharing emotions etc. As for boys, most of them at this > > age are still not sure what the heck is happening with them. > > ME: This a sterostype where girls are good and boys are horny at best, if that > is, if they manage to figure out what they want. I think I might offer my own > testimonial that girls, even at the ages of 15 thru 17, do indeed want and think > about sex and *gasp* are doing it. Divide the legs, and way more than that. > And I do in fact speak of my own personal experience when I was in high > school between 1990-1994. > > I will grant you that boys this age are more clueless--the norm was usually for > girls to date older guys--(think about Hermione/Krum--not that i think they > were doing it). [snipped rest of post] I think we may be having a cultural difference here, either between Britain and the US, or between those of us who have been to high school recently and those who, er, have not. Personally, I went to high school in the early 90s in Mexico and although some people were having sex, it was quite rare. Most of us just talked and thought about it non-stop... Now, more recently I taught at a boarding school and also at a sleepaway camp over the summer, and I can tell you that in fact the staff did have to basically keep the kids away from each other with cattle prods. Understandably there are many reasons why Rowling is keeping away from this issue for now and possibly for the rest of the series, as you all have already pointed out. But this is only one of the things I wanted to draw attention to. JKR has said that she never went to boarding school, and I must say it shows. I particularly note the long stretches of unsupervised time that kids have (evenings after dinner, say 6 pm or so, and all of Saturday and Sunday, not to mention holidays). In American boarding schools there is rarely unsupervised time for the kids, with the thought that "idle hands are the devil's playground." Usually after dinner there is a study hall, during which the staff makes sure the kids are doing their homework, and no more than an hour or so until lights-out (kids must be in bed and quiet). During weekends and holidays there are supervised "fun" activities: going to the movies, bowling, games, etc. At some schools there are Saturday morning classes, and/or at least one evening a week devoted to community service. The same tight schedule applies to sleepaway camps, again with only an hour at most at a time to spend unsupervised. Of course this being a litigious society, schools don't want to be open to law suits in case the little darlings get into trouble when there's no adult around... To bring this back to canon, I notice that staff at Hogwarts are considerable more empowered to hand out punishments than in my experience, Mr. Filch's frustrations notwithstanding. Not only is there the point system, which adds peer pressure to the mix, but also the fact that they can hand out detentions and can determine when and how such a detention will be served. In my experience a student would need to accumulate a certain number of demerits ("bad" points) before they were assigned detention, which would always be at the same time, same activity, and would not normally be supervised by the teacher who handed out the detention. I wonder if there are any listies who have attended boarding school in Britain in recent decades and who can comment on the differences between their experience and the Hogwarts view? (I'm talking about disciplinary differences, but if you want to comment on the social life...er... we won't complain ;-)) Gorda From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Oct 22 03:08:30 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:08:30 -0000 Subject: Boarding school (WAS: Re: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83296 I didn't go to a school in Britain, but I did attend one of a number of Australian schools that were set up in the 19th century as copies of the 'best' British schools, and still maintain many of their practices and traditions (and have evolved parallel to their British counterparts, so are still fairly similar today). So I'll have a go at this. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adsong16" wrote: > I think we may be having a cultural difference here, either between Britain and > the US, or between those of us who have been to high school recently and > those who, er, have not. I think the cultural difference may go further than that - Hogwarts is a very particular *type* of school (well, it's a pretty unique school - but it also shows a heavy type influence in many ways of the traditional 'British Public School') - these are very particular environments and while all are different and any generalisations will be precisely that, these schools can be radically different from other schools, and the mores of the school can sometimes be quite different from what would normally be expected. > Personally, I went to high school in the early 90s in Mexico and > although some people were having sex, it was quite rare. Most of us > just talked and thought about it non-stop... That matches my experiences as well - at my school, talking about sex wasn't uncommon - actually doing it with someone else involved was uncommon. > Now, more recently I taught at a boarding school and also at a > sleepaway camp over the summer, and I can tell you that in fact the > staff did have to basically keep the kids away from each other with > cattle prods. That will very much depend on the school. At my school, no cattle prods were needed - but that was partly because we knew they'd come out if they ever were needed (-8 What I mean by that is that there was very little need to teachers to actively attempt to prevent students being sexually active, because everybody knew that if it started to happen too often, the teachers were capable of taking action. Provided we kept things fairly low key, we knew there wouldn't be too much interference - and so people did keep things low key to avoid pushing the teachers too far. What this meant was that we had a situation where if particular individuals wanted to do something, they probably could - but most people rarely tried. And because this was the common attitude, there was very little pressure to be sexually active - if somebody was, OK - we weren't particularly judgemental (and we might even be a little jealous) - but we also didn't feel under any institutionalised pressure to compete. > Understandably there are many reasons why Rowling is keeping away > from this issue for now and possibly for the rest of the series, as > you all have already pointed out. But this is only one of the things > I wanted to draw attention to. > > JKR has said that she never went to boarding school, and I must say > it shows. I particularly note the long stretches of unsupervised time > that kids have (evenings after dinner, say 6 pm or so, and all of > Saturday and Sunday, not to mention holidays). In American boarding > schools there is rarely unsupervised time for the kids, with the > thought that "idle hands are the devil's playground." Usually after > dinner there is a study hall, during which the staff makes sure the > kids are doing their homework, and no more than an hour or so until > lights-out (kids must be in bed and quiet). During weekends and > holidays there are supervised "fun" activities: going to the movies, > bowling, games, etc. At some schools there are Saturday morning > classes, and/or at least one evening a week devoted to community > service. Well, my experiences were at a school that did give us a fair amount of unsupervised free time - but under the clear understanding that if you ever proved you couldn't be responsible with that level of personal autonomy, you could find yourself with a *very* structured environment (and even worse so might all your classmates). It wasn't *quite* as unstructured as Hogwarts seems to be - but it was close enough that when reading the Harry Potter books, I don't feel any massive disconnect with my own experiences. We had compulsory sports training two nights a week, and compulsory Saturday morning sport (and this was for day students as well as boarders), and until you reached the senior school, study was supervised at night as well - but even with all that, you probably had... at least two hours, often as many as four of pretty much free time of an evening, and at least six to eight on a Saturday or a Sunday. They didn't try to fill up every minute of our lives, partly because we were expected to learn how to fill that time ourselves as early as possible - part of making us self sufficient withing a safe environment. > The same tight schedule applies to sleepaway camps, again with only an > hour at most at a time to spend unsupervised. Of course this being a litigious > society, schools don't want to be open to law suits in case the little darlings > get into trouble when there's no adult around... > > To bring this back to canon, I notice that staff at Hogwarts are > considerable more empowered to hand out punishments than in my > experience, Mr. Filch's frustrations notwithstanding. Not only is > there the point system, which adds peer pressure to the mix, but also > the fact that they can hand out detentions and can determine when and > how such a detention will be served. In my experience a student would > need to accumulate a certain number of demerits ("bad" points) before > they were assigned detention, which would always be at > the same time, same activity, and would not normally be supervised by > the teacher who handed out the detention. Well, at my school, teachers could most certainly hand out summary punishments and did so quite regularly. Step out of line and you were quite possibly going to be handed an instant detention. We had formal detentions which were at a set time and a set activity (generally copying out the school rules, or an incredibly boring mathematics text published in 1878) - but provided they were reasonable, teachers could certainly assign another form of detention and often did. I cleaned a bus once, dug weeds out of a garden - one of my friends served a detention playing soccer on one occasion! And there were worse punishments than mere detentions. Briefly - I went to a school that drew on many of the same traditions, Hogwarts seems to. And Hogwarts seems internally consistent to me based on those experiences. That doesn't mean it *has* to be that way - JKR could have made different choices on many issues and still wound up with a school that 'felt right' - but nonetheless, I think the choices she has made are close enough to enough people's experiences that there's nothing jarring. Examples: Change that wouldn't set off my personal alarms: Having a structured study session every evening Change that would have seemed really odd: Hogwarts having a squad of cheerleaders wearing tight skirts and poms poms. Authors need to make their environments feel right to people - Hogwarts *feels right* to me, based on my experiences. Indeed the similarities to the schooling I experienced are on reason the books first grabbed me. The revelation that there is sexual activity going on at Hogwarts wouldn't, by itself, wreck the feel for me - because the idea of it happening wouldn't be absurd. But the fact that what is going on, only seems to be at a low level - likewise, that doesn't seem problematic to me. It seems perfectly plausible. I'd certainly be very interested to hear from anyone whose experiences were at schools even closer to the Hogwarts model - but I'd say mine are closer than most of the people on the list, even though they were in a different country. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From liz at studylink.com Tue Oct 21 12:37:19 2003 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:37:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301A970EE@mimas.fareham.climax.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83297 on 21/10/03 1:22 pm, James Sharman at jamess at climax.co.uk wrote: > jwcph wrote: > > Kneasy raised an interesting point in his post # 83201. I said that > the prank happened sometime after pensieve 2, which would make it > after 5th year. But Kneasy pointed out that we don't actually have > any canon for that. I had assumed that it happened at least that > late because of the way the story is told in PoA. Remus says it > took the Marauders the better part of 3 years to figure out how to > transform. Then he mentions Snape's suspicion that he (Remus) was > helping Sirius get into the school after the escape. At that point, > the story of the prank comes out-or at least a somewhat expurgated > version of it. Because of the order in which Remus tells about the > Marauders, I made the assumption that the prank followed > chronologically after the Marauders learned to transform. But > that's not necessarily the case, is it? If it weren't for Remus's > offhand remark about Snape, the prank might not have come up at > all. Furthermore, Sirius and James could have known where Remus > went on full moon nights well before they learned the animagus > spell. So when *did* the prank happen? And what, if any, are the > differing ramifications of it happening before pensieve 2 or after > pensieve 2? Or do I just need to get a life? > > > SilentJim: > > Very Interesting! I'll have to go and do some reading but it certainly > sounds plausible. It would also clear up another problem. We are told that > James risked his life to save Snape from Remus and the issue has been raised > that James didn't really risk his life because he could turn into a huge > stag. > > If the prank took place after the Marauders found out about remus' secret > but before they became Animagi (Is that the right pluralisation?) it would > cast the event in a different light. > > A possible supporting fact to this is that we are told Prongs/Wormtail & > Padfoot prowled the forest and grounds with Remus on full moon nights but > the prank is described with Remus alone in the shack. I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that when Snape, Remus and Sirius are talking about the prank in the Shrieking Shack Sirius mentions that they were 16 when it happened, which would make it either late 5th year or more likely sometime in 6th year, which would be after they had become animagi. I'm going to go check if I'm remembering correctly. Liz From liza_l_williams at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 21 17:05:40 2003 From: liza_l_williams at yahoo.ca (liza_l_williams) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:05:40 -0000 Subject: Anyone else over PPD? In-Reply-To: <20031020203515.55578.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83298 > > I think there will be 10 books total in the series. You've got 7 in the "Hogwarts series" and another 3 after that for Auror training. > But Rowling has stated all along that she will just be following Harry through Hogwarts, not beyond - it would be nice though! From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 21 17:37:51 2003 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:37:51 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tub_of_earwax" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > wrote: > > > > Geoff: > > > Just to be pedantic, we are actually introduced to Susan Bones in > > PS > > > when she is the second named person to be sorted and goes into > > > Hufflepuff. > > > Lara: > > To be very precice. We were first introduced to Susan and her > family > > in PS/SS when Hagrid said that some of the best families were > > murdered, like the Bones'. Then we meet Susan at teh sorting > > ceremony. Then in CoS she is one of the people talking to ernie > > McMillan (sp?) in the library, about Harry being the heir of > > Slytherin. She is the one who finds it strange, and is scpetical > > about it. Then not much more on Susan untill OotP. She will > probably > > be of some use lateron because she is a pureblood, from Hufflepuff, > > and on the good side. And she can't be all non-powerful either. I > > don't remember how she performed in OotP. But anyway, thought I'd > > add that. > > Geoff: > To be counter-pedantic, I said that we were introduced to Susan Bones > at the Sorting Ceremony which is correct. She is not specifically > mentioned by Hagrid. He only refers to "the Bones'" in the list of > those killed; no mention of Susan who is still alive..... > Geoff yeah sorry about this, but I was simply wondering whether anyone had any ideas on WHY and HOW the Bones were, if indeed they are, significant, I didnt have the book with me, and all this has brought up is a childish squabble about how and when they were introduced, and suchforth. Would it not be better to say, they have been brought up in most of the books, and have had loses of their family at Voldy's doing. Question: any thoughts on how they could be significant?? One theory was that they are the descendants of Hufflepuff. Any other ideas??? Sorry I'm being blunt, I just think you took the question the wrong way *~evil_sushi From sluther.nyc at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 20:15:55 2003 From: sluther.nyc at verizon.net (splnyc) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:15:55 -0000 Subject: Is Neville's frog Trevor and animagus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83300 I can't find anywhere this topic has been covered already, but I heard that there is a new theory that Neville's frog Trevor could actually be Dolores Umbridge? I am re-reading book 5 right now and want to check it out again for myself, but could this be true? Dolores Umbridge is always described as frog-like and I can't find any scenes where Trevor and Dolores are at the same place at the same time. Could Dolores be Neville's other grandmother (his maternal grandmother, Alice's mother) and perhaps be keeping an eye on Neville as his pet frog is SS, CS, PA and GF? Then in OOP we don't see Trevor and Umbridge at the same time because Umbridge is at Hogwarts and is keeping an eye on Neville in her human form? It could even explain why Umbridge wants to deny so much that Voldemort is not back - she is still too upset from her daughter's death and wants to stay in denial that he could come back. She does not want to believe it could be true. This could all be crazy but I was curious if anyone out there has heard this or had similar thoughts. From KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net Tue Oct 21 20:24:44 2003 From: KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net (Kagome Shikon Seeker) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:24:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83301 From: evil_sushi2003 [mailto:evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com] But your point brings up a question, why is Voldy keeping Snape on, when we are led to believe in GoF that he is aware of losing Snape? I think that Snape is definitely the one who V is referring to here, as I don't think JK would have put that in for the sake of it. Kagome: No, but we don't ~know~ that it's Snape he's referring to. He simply says, "One I have lost forever, and one who is too cowardly to return." But although you assume (at least, I did for a long time) that the one "lost" is Snape, and the cowardly one is Karkaroff, it might not be so. We figured out later that the loyal one was Crouch Jr., although at the time I read it, I had assumed he had meant Snape. What if the one "lost" is Karkaroff, and the cowardly one is Bagman? (Ironically, this is what I had assumed when first reading that passage, before I knew that Snape was NOT the loyal one at Hogwarts.) Or what if one of those refers to someone else, someone maybe hinted at earlier, but never confirmed? Snape ~could~ be one of the many DE's hidden under cowls who never speaks and whose face we never see, since LV doesn't refer to each of them individually. We don't really know for certain. Especially since JKR specifically had LV skip over many of the DE's and say nothing to them, which gives us plenty of leeway. I don't believe LV's statement here is a red herring, but I do think it is meant to fool us. From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Oct 20 21:00:16 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:00:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 1: Learning to Fly References: Message-ID: <004d01c3974d$2b7a09c0$39ea79a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83302 > I don't know if this was every brought up, but a friend of mine > brought this up and I don't remember reading about it (on this site). > Is there a possibility that Neville's broom was hexed when he was > learning to fly? There is some real similarity with the way > Neville's broom reacted and the way Harry broom reacted during the Q > game. > Sounds interesting to me, but I don't know how it could be. > What do you all think? > Thanks! > Stephanie > Hmmm... Could be that Quirrel tried to figure out which broom was most likely to be used by Potter in the flying class, and hexed it. When that didn't work, he determined that he would have to actually see the broom Harry was on to make sure he got the right one. So he hit the broom Harry was on during the Quidditch match to try and avoid suspicion by being "lost in the crowd." (Madame Hooch may tend to have a "seating chart" of where to line up by your brooms, and Quirrel tried to exploit that... But for some reason or another, the places got switched around from the alphabetical by something as simple as people gravitating towards friends they had already made.) It's a thought... Iggy McSnurd From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Tue Oct 21 22:35:46 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:35:46 +0200 Subject: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031021230908.0278a920@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83303 Caipora quibbled about 24 000 wizards being too small a group to remain distinct over time: >Another way of looking at it is "How many do you need?" > >How many people does it take to form a stable, distinct ethnic group >in a larger society? Two people, if they are fertile, and if enough offspring marry each other to at least replace their own numbers. Inbreeding may not be conducive to the health of the individuals of the group, but at least it will help the group become distinct over time. While that answer isn't entirely serious, the size of a group is actually not a deciding factor in sustaining its cohesion or identity over time. The will to keep the group pure and true to its distinguishing characteristics and separate from all other groups is. Also, if the group isn't willing to initiate non-members, it has to rely on traditional procreation to maintain itself, which may become problematic if more people leave the group than is born to it. As long as the Jews in Great Britain keep their culture distinct from British culture and avoid dying out, the size of their population is entirely irrelevant. Actually, a small number might even be good for cohesion, since that would make it easier to restrict members' interaction with non-members and lessens the risk of members getting foreign ideas. The Amish are another example. While I don't know the size of the Amish population in North America, I imagine that specific Amish communities, *each of which constitutes a stable, distinct group in a larger society* (I don't know about "ethnic", though, and i don't know why you included it in the first place, given that "wizard" isn't an ethnicity), may vary in size from a few hundred to several thousand, possibly even in the tens of thousands. I think what you should have asked is how the wizarding world can maintain itself intact within the Muggle world. The answer is: magic. Wizards are the only humans able to use magic, and you have to learn to use your magic from a wizard (since the very first wizard had to teach himself magic, this statement isn't absolutely true, but for all practical reasons it suffices). This provides not only a very distinguishing characteristic for our wizards in relation to Muggles, it also provides wizards with a practical mechanism for teaching new members Wizarding culture (in contradistinction to British culture). It also seems likely that up until the muggle population explosion of the late 19th century and onwards, the vast majority of wizards were born to wizards, which means you don't need to "debrief" were many new members. Furthermore, Muggles don't know wizards exist, and wizards are happy to, and even demand to, be left alone. This definitely helps to keep wizarding culture intact, but even if Muggles knew about wizards, it would matter little to the stability and distinction of the wizarding group, given their monopoly on magic. >Your numbers are well based on the internal evidence, but you may >have spent more time calculating than Rowling ever did. She writes >fantasy, not science fiction, and isn't expected to have an entirely >plausible and consistent world view. I definitely don't expect JKR to bother with population dynamics, and I would be very surprised if my population figures matched what she has decided it is. I don't think it would be a lot of trouble coming up with credible explanations for whatever the actual number is, but until JKR discloses the population figure, I think 24 000 wizards or something in that ballpark is a useable figure. / Mikael From thren at subreality.com Wed Oct 22 00:48:33 2003 From: thren at subreality.com (Thren) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:48:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia's knowledge? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F95D3E1.6020705@subreality.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83304 tiggersong wrote: >I assume Petunia is the one who actually empties the bedroom trash >cans into the big one in back of the house. So, has she been reading >them? She did seem ...well informed about the WW. Possibly more >recently informed than she "should" be. > > And me (Thren): Y'know... I wonder why I never thought of that. :) She might have known about the Dementors before, but if they hadn't been part of Voldie's troupe before (assuming they would have been if they'd been around), where did they come from, and was it in time for her to know about it from James? I think it's more likely she was reading the Prophet and just didn't want Vernon to know, so blamed it on James (why not Lily?). Also, how does someone in a Muggle household (especially *Petunia's* household) get rid of newspapers that involve moving pictures and news of a whole other world? Perhaps Harry uses them to line Hedwigs's cage (bird droppings would stop *me* from picking through it), but what about other households? You can't just horde them forever. Hmm. Stray issues of the Prophet must be a big gap in their Secrecy security, unless they have something like a collection to recycle. Or perhaps they go poof after a while, but that doesn't really explain how Sirius kept hold of a clipping for so long. Er. Rambling... From oppen at mycns.net Wed Oct 22 05:35:35 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:35:35 -0500 Subject: Speaking up for Petunia Message-ID: <011501c3985e$5207da60$7d570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 83305 You know, little as I love Petunia Dursley, and much as I'd love to see her snog a Dementor (and then the Dementor would be licking the south end of a north-bound horse to get the taste out of its "mouth") there is something to be said on her behalf. We never hear of the Dursleys having any sort of help around the house, and a fifteen-month-old baby is, I am told (never had one of them around myself; I'm waiting till they come out with a model featuring an instruction booklet, a warranty, and a helpline, among a few other features---hey, if they can do it with computers, why not? *grin*) a bit of a handful. They're mobile, but not really verbal yet, and have no as in N-O sense. To top it off, Dudley-as-described would probably be even more of a handful than a normal baby, and the Dursleys' parenting skills are, shall we say, not-so-hot-so. Now, out of the blue, blue sky, they get _another_ fifteen-month-old. Now Petunia's workload is about doubled (somehow, I "hae me doots" that Vernon helps around the house---if he knows _how_ to wash dishes or where the washing machine/dryer are, I'd be very surprised) and it's for a child that may be bringing all sorts of disasters down on their home. She may well have seen spontaneous magic from her sister before Lily got her Hogwarts letter, and been thoroughly frightened by it, particularly if it was at all destructive. A lot of her attitude toward Harry could well be resentment based on the extra workload he represented when he was small. Even if there were monies provided to pay for his upkeep, she'd have had two active toddlers to keep track of. Even one toddler, when I've been exposed to them (seldom) has reminded me of a line from Lois Bujold's wonderful work _Barrayar:_ "There's all of us, adults, and one of him. We should be able to keep up. Why do I always feel like he has us outnumbered and surrounded?" From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Mon Oct 20 12:59:25 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 07:59:25 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 12 uses for Dragons Blood References: Message-ID: <000901c39709$fff5bb20$848eaec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83306 > June wrote: > > > > > > Suggestions: > > > > > > 1. An excellent (though intense) haemorrhoid preparation > > > 2. Fantastic in certain "wild" cocktails > > > 3. Brilliant in stir-fry. > > > > > > And apologies for levity. Anyone else? > > > > > Kneasy : > > 4. Gives an excellent patina when used to polish a wand > > > > 5. Muggle solvent > > > > 6. Flesh-eating slug repellant > > > How about: > > 7. Nail Polish remover > 8. Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans ingredient > 9. Great Halloween decoration > > Meri Iggy Here: My favorites are... 10: Hot Sauce 11: McDougal's Giant Wonder Burger special sauce. 12: First Aid Ointment (remember the bloody dragon steak hagrid used over his eye in OotP.) Iggy McSnurd From sandrranch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 03:49:20 2003 From: sandrranch at yahoo.com (S & R Ranch) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:49:20 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83307 I have been wondering where were Mr & Mrs Weasley when Sirius, Lupin Tonks, Moody & the others came to Harry & the others rescue at the MOM? Her "wonderful clock" (as DD put it)would have shown Mrs W. that 2 of her children were in mortal danger! So why would the parents not come to the aid of their own children? From sandrranch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 03:59:03 2003 From: sandrranch at yahoo.com (S & R Ranch) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:59:03 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83308 June: > [Molly greets Harry and tell him he'll have to wait for dinner...] > > "She turned to the gang of wizards behind him and whispered > urgently "He's just arrived, the meeting's started." > > The wizards behind Harry all made noises of interest and excitement > and began filing past him towards the door through which Mrs Weasley > had just come." > > There - that's Snape they are talking about. Now he may not be > exactly ready for the cocktail party circuit yet, but that, imho is > a guy who can network and is working with others - well. ******** I took it as Dumbledore had just arrived. He is head of "The Order" and one would assume that the meeting would not start until he had arrived. I would think that if she had been talking about Snape she would have said that the meeting was just starting as Snape had just arrived too. From chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int Wed Oct 22 07:48:37 2003 From: chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int (chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:48:37 +0200 Subject: Barty Crouch Jr. not soul-sucked? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83309 Kate wrote: >Unfortunately, Voldemort knew that his minion would be in trouble >and Apparated just outside Hogwarts, guised as a dementor. He had >no problem getting into the school and pretending to suck the soul >from Crouch. This had been his most faithful servant and would be >rewarded greatly. Besides, Voldemort has other plans for the boy... >plans that may prove to be the end of Harry Potter once and for all. Sorry if I bring back this long-forgotten message. Are you implying that Crouch Jr.'s sentence might have been faked? That the Dementors really never sucked his soul? It was just a joke? Can someone, even LV, fake a Dementor, chill and darkness and all included? He can certainly dress like one, but what about the "accessories"? I'm a very late HP fan (only read the books after having been taken somewhat against my consent to see the second film) and I'm also a rare one-time only reader, but I had the impression that once the Dementors are there there is little you can do unless you have a Patronus at hand. And I suppose Barty didn't, or did he? Chiara From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 22 11:09:40 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:09:40 -0000 Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) In-Reply-To: <20031020203515.55578.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83310 D wrote: > I think there will be 10 books total in the series. You've got 7 in the "Hogwarts series" and another 3 after that for Auror training. I think JKR is setting the ground work to continue even after Harry has left Hogwarts. Or maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part.> Ah, if only (Kirstini, firmly in the Dead!Harry camp, adjusts her homemade FEATHERBOA)! However, this got me thinking. Say Harry does live , does anyone think he will actually make it into Auror school? It doesn't seem likely to me, for several reasons. 1. I don't think his Potions mark will be high enough. **** Harry corked his sample flask feeling that he might not have achieved a good grade but he had, with luck, avoided a fail. (OoP, Bloomsbury, p 632) **** Surely we aren't going to see Harry bumped up a grade or two because he's the famous Harry Potter? Yes, McGonagall has pledged to support him, but she has also been particularly scathing about the Ministry's corrupt dealings with Willy Widdershins - she's not going to encourage the same sort of thing within the education system, is hse? Harry has never been talented at Potions - something which was perhaps over-emphasised in OoP. Part of it is attributable to Snape's overbearing presence, but not all. He doesn't suddenly become an expert Potions maker when out of Snape's presence, because (like many teenage boys) he lacks subtlety. JKR changed the time when OWL results arrive about for a reason - suspense? (George and Fred get their results at the end of PoA - *before* the end of the term in which they sat them.) 2.There are other ways of fighting Voldemort/evil. Neither of Harry's parents were old enough to be fully-fleged Aurors (another reason why they weren't at school with the Longbottoms, IMHO), and yet had escaped him "three times" by the time Sybil made her prediction. Ditto all Marauders and Snape - and yet they were all highly active/instrumental in the First War. (Bill and Charlie aren't Aurors either, but then they have spy value) 3. Is it likely that an exhausted 18 year-old, fresh from defeating The Most Powerful Dark Wizard For A Century, even one as gung ho as Our Young Hero, is going to jump right back on the Dark-beating wagon again? It's always been all go for Harry. With the major goal completed, I imagine he'd probably want to stop for a break. 4. We are told that being an Auror was the only career path Harry had seriously considered, but this ambition is a comparatively new one, and was put into his head by Crouch!Moody in GoF. If Potions are essential to Auror training, and Hary is not a particularly talented potion-maker, it seems only logical to conclude that he wouldn't be successful in this part of the job. Harry is attracted to Auror(ism? Aurorship?) because he has formed a rather glamourous (well, as glamourous as any job done by Mad-Eye Moody could ever seem)idea of what it involves. Let him have a little disappointment - a Cho Chang career - before finding out what he really wants to do/ what he's really good at. This sort of thing happens a lot to sixteen year olds receiving their exam results. Okay, preparing to duck. Kirstini. From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 11:38:13 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 04:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does Snape get away with it Message-ID: <20031022113813.58830.qmail@web40012.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83311 22Oct03 June wrote: "Well I don't know -why is everyone waiting so eagerly for his report in OOP Chapter 4: ... [Molly greets Harry and tells him he'll have to wait for dinner...] "She turned to the gang of wizards behind him and whispered urgently "He's just arrived, the meeting's started."... There - that's Snape they are talking about. Now he may not be exactly ready for the cocktail party circuit yet, but that, imho is a guy who can network and is working with others - well." Paula now: OK, point well taken. But still, Snape is in control, ie everyone's waiting for HIM. I could never see Snape in the cocktail circuit either, or closed up in a house full of people for that matter. True, he's been networking and working with others, but on his own terms. Notice that Mrs Weasley says she has to hurry, speaks in whispers and shuttles Harry off to join Ron and Hermione. The atmosphere is one of tension--the usual atmosphere when Snape is present. And don't forget, there was always antipathy between Snape and Sirius. Snape can network and work with others when the need arises; he's a hard-nosed character, a real work-ethic type. But seems still basically the loner type who will always insist on his own terms. Paula "Griff" Gaon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Oct 22 12:17:17 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:17:17 -0000 Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83312 Kirstini wrote: > Say Harry does live , does > anyone think he will actually make it into Auror school? It doesn't > seem likely to me, for several reasons. (Good reasons snipped) In addition, I think Harry is in for some disillusionment about Aurors. Sirius pointed out that Moody at least made an effort not to kill DEs, even when Crouch had authorised them to. Their role in Fudge's attempt to arrest Dumbledore (and Umbridge's to arrest Hagrid) suggests they may be a pretty tainted body, and I think it would fit with JKR's habit of undermining and debunking her own creations to have Harry in opposition, or at least tension, with them for most of the rest of the series. We may get the scenario where a still-ambitious and fundamentally unrepentant Fudge offers to accelerate auror training for Harry while he is still at school, to try to detach him from Dumbledore and keep the lead in the anti-Voldemort fight under MOM control as much as possible. This could be a real temptation for Harry, either because the (rival) Order of the Phoenix keeps its overage-only rule, or because, for any of a number of reasons, the Order is no more attractive to him than the MOM. David From gromm at cards.lanck.net Wed Oct 22 12:43:27 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:43:27 +0400 Subject: Kneazles Oriental? Message-ID: <001401c3989a$1854c4e0$4241983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 83313 Does anyone else except me think that Kneazles must be an Oriental cat race, like Abyssinians or Siamese? I mean, they are small, with large ears and a tail so thin as to be able to carry a tassel, I can't imagine a Persian or a Siberian with a tasseled tail :), and they are very clever and affecionate. An Oriental breed to me. Or does FB say something on the contrary? I don't have the book, and Lexicon says nothing about it. Thoughts? Crookshanks, aka Maria, a good Slytherin (The Magic World of Harry Potter MSN group, got the letter with my Sorting results two days ago). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 22 09:36:26 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:36:26 -0000 Subject: Bones, and Diggory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: > > Geoff: > > To be counter-pedantic, I said that we were introduced to Susan > Bones > > at the Sorting Ceremony which is correct. She is not specifically > > mentioned by Hagrid. He only refers to "the Bones'" in the list of > > those killed; no mention of Susan who is still alive..... > > Geoff > evil_sushi: > yeah sorry about this, but I was simply wondering whether anyone had > any ideas on WHY and HOW the Bones were, if indeed they are, > significant, I didnt have the book with me, and all this has brought > up is a childish squabble about how and when they were introduced, > and suchforth. > > Would it not be better to say, they have been brought up in most of > the books, and have had loses of their family at Voldy's doing. > > Question: any thoughts on how they could be significant?? One theory > was that they are the descendants of Hufflepuff. Any other ideas??? Geoff: I don't think it's been a particularly "childish squabble". It's just differentiating Susan as an individual family member from the family in toto. I must admit that, until Lara mentioned it, I han't noticed the link between Hagrid's mention of the "Bones'" in PS and the girl. One virtue I have found with re-reading books (which I found especially reading LOTR about 30 times over the years) is that you tend to find something new each time. I am now working through HP for I think the 7th time, about to begin POA again, and I am still noticing little things, the odd phrase or nuance that I hadn't actively noticed previously. What of the Bones? Perhaps Susan is just there so that Harry at some point realises that he knows someone who has a link to a person in high authority. I'm not always sure that Jo Rowling has a plan for every person named at the sorting ceremony - there are a few anmes there which I don't recall seeing again. They may be there just to give the impression that Harry was half listening to the roll call. Put yourself in a similar situation; I went to my eldest son's graduation at London Bible College in June when about 100 students were presented with their degrees. I picked up on some names, perhaps because the name was unusual or they had an interesting dissertation sunject but many just went in through one ear and out of the other. It also adds to the feel of the place. When I was at school, there were other students around whom I did not know or just recognised by sight. From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Wed Oct 22 11:34:43 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:34:43 +0200 Subject: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031022084556.0278ce40@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83315 Robert Shaw, replying to me; > > Feel free to poke holes in my reasoning. I'm not entirely convinced > > that my attempt holds up to scrutiny, but i don't think i made any > > glaring errors. > > > >I'm a mathematician, not a sociologist, but your reasoning looks >sound, given your assumptions. Well, that's a relief. Of course, my assumptions may still be invalid, but that remains to be discussed... >Having only 50% of wizard-borns at hogwarts is unexpected >(which shows you haven't been fudging your numbers) but is >not incompatible with canon. Getting unexpected results is in itself not proof of non-fudging, but I didn't consciously bias my analysis. > >> As an aside, much of that increase is actually due to immigration. > >> How do wizards deal with that? > >> > >> The Hogwarts' quill records the names of wizards born within range, > >> but Indian muggle-borns whose parents have just immigrated will not > >> be listed. > > > > And will thus not get a magical education nor become wizards. Hence > > they won't affect the wizarding population. > > >It means that the muggle population from which muggle-borns can >be drawn is smaller than the raw census data indicates, though >only by a few percent, reducing the number of muggle born wizards >by the same percent. If emigrants reduce the population, and immigrants are ignored by the quill, then basing the analysis on live births would *overestimate* the number of muggle-borns, since some of the predicted muggle-borns would leave the british isles before they have a chance to enter Hogwarts while immigrating potential wizards don't get the chance. Anyway, it's not "a few percent" in any case, according to the data I managed to find. Net migration to the UK (including Irish Republic, which would be within Hogwarts area) varies in the range of 100-300 000 in recent years, so relevant migrants are at maximum still less than 0,5%. However, only immigrants with children aged 0-10 are relevant to the issue, and the net migration to UK of children aged 0-14 (still including Irish Republic) varies between -19 000 to +14 000 during the last 30 years (though in recent years you seem to have a stable inflow of a few thousand children per year) . The rate of magical births to Muggles should be about 0,0073%, or about one muggle-born per 15 000 muggle births. So immigration is likely to add 0 muggle-borns, +/- 1, per year. If we assume stable inflow of a few thousand, then immigration would add a muggle-born every few years. It occurs to me that the quill might not actually be able to distinguish between births and immigration, since both types constitute magical children suddenly appearing within its detection range. In that case, effects of immigration are entirely negligible, especially when the margins of error in my model are considered. >Untaught wizards would keep having magical accidents, which are a public >nuisance. Dark wizards might find it easy to recruit the untaught as >cannon-fodder. >Some wizards might be offended by the notion of potential wizards >(members >of a superior breed) being forced to live as mere muggles. Fair enough. I'll buy that. In the light of what I said above, I don't think these sporadic non-registered children matter one whit, given the approximate nature of my model. > >> If the ministry lost track of many muggle borns during the > >> mass muggle migrations of the last centuries this could have > >> a significant impact on wizarding demographics. > > > > Possibly. Migration don't affect the muggle population in any > > dramatic way, Sorry, i meant to say *wizard* population. >Most of the time. > From memory, in the 1800's over a third of the muggle Irish >population emigrated. Assuming, as always, that the wizarding population is fairly stable, then before the muggle population explosion that began in the late 1800s, the wizard-to-muggle ratio would have been much larger than it is today, and the small population of muggles (relative to today's sizes) would have added fewer muggle-borns to the wizard pop. Thus, I maintain that a third of the Irish emigrating in the 1800s wouldn't necessarily affect the wizard population in any dramatic way. A little thought experiment to illustrate my point: Assume that we *halve* the number muggle-borns born over *fifty* years (which would correspond to a change in Muggle demographics of society-shattering proportions), using recent figures, e.g. going from 43 muggle-borns per year to, say, 23 per year. This would make a grand difference of 1 000 muggle-borns, ceteris paribus, or slightly more than a 4% decrease in wizard population. However, some of the these missing muggle-borns would reasonably have had children. If wizards have their children between the ages of 20 and 40, and they have enough children to replace their own numbers, we can expect about 600 children and 100 grand-children not born during these 50 years. It would still amount to a total decrease in wizard population of *7 percent* and would change the proportion of muggle-borns in the population from 25 % to about 19 %. Now, if the loss of muggle fertility is perpetuated, the muggle population, and thus the muggle-borns, would quickly plummet to extinction, leaving the wizards (all of them pure-blood by then) to inherit the world. While the wizarding population decrease wouldn't be linear (due to the knock-on effect of non-births), and thus would be most noticeable in the latter years, a 7% loss over fifty years is hardly dramatic. UK's population has increased 20% in the last 50 years, and while British society has changed quite a lot in that time, most of those changes have been caused by the increased mobility of individuals and advances in welfare and technology. Changes in size matters little to social change (as was demonstrated by Durkheim in his classic book Division of Labour, already in the early 1900s, which has not been disproven) unless the changes are big enough to sabotage the workings of the societal system. Halving muggle fertility would over time inflate the number of retired people (a huge drain on a welfare state's expenses, in terms of pensions and medical infrastructure) while at the same time slashing the productivity of the working force because it would only be half its earlier size. British society as we know it would collapse or change beyond recognition. > > If we look at muggle birth numbers (actually, UK birth numbers) over > > the last hundred years, the *maximum* fluctuation for *any* > > consecutive seven-year period deviates from the mean by only 20 % > > (this including effects of migration, to boot). Assuming that wizard > > birth numbers vary as much, my estimate of wizarding numbers of about > > 24 000 is bounded at 20 or 30 000 (assuming my die-off model is > > reasonably accurate). > > >Which is to say 24,000 +25%/-16% Yeah, yeah. Had I wanted to be pedantic, I would have said 19 200 to 28 800, but I wanted to convey a sense of the general magnitude of the wizard population to our non-demographics-oriented audience (assuming we actually have an audience...) so I resorted to the magic of big, round numbers instead. > > Whew. If you managed to wade through this delusional demographic > > debate to the bitter end, you have my deepest respect. > > >The bitter end? We've barely scratched the surface of this topic. Sorry, I meant the bitter end of my long and complicated post, not the discussion. >For a full discussion we'd need to pull out the partial differential >equations, and brush up on our statistics. The weakest point in the analysis is the die-off function. The inflexion point and slopes of the mortality curve is pure guess-work, since we have no indication whatsoever of how wizarding age-group mortality is differentiated, except that at high ages it has to be lower than for Muggles, or the ages of Dumbledore and Marchbanks would be impossible. Lowering the life-expectancy (124 in the model) decreases the wizarding population, and raising it increases the population. Tampering with the fraction of muggle-borns among the Hogwarts students also affects the wizard population. Putting conceivable limits to these two variables, we also limit the spectrum of possible wizarding populations. If wizarding life expectancy at its lowest is roughly that of the Muggle world, we should expect the muggle-borns at Hogwarts to constitute 9 % of muggle-born wizards, and the wizard-born students to constitute 13,5% of wizard-born wizards assuming that half of the wizard-born students are half-bloods). Since Dumbledore is seen as old, I'd say that the upper limit for wizarding life expectancy is below his age. If so, we should expect the muggle-borns at Hogwarts to constitute 4 % of muggle-born wizards, and the wizard-born students to constitute 6% of wizard-born wizards (assuming that half of the wizard-born students are half-bloods). The deviation in muggle birth numbers over any 7-year period is 20 %, so I'd let the fraction of Hogwarts students that are muggle-borns vary from 25% to 36%. We know that there are 1000 students at Hogwarts and that muggle-borns are 25% of the wizarding population. Given the assumptions, this should limit the *possible* wizarding populations to be above 11 000 (when 25 % of Hogwarts students are muggle-borns, and they are 9 % of all muggle-borns) and below 36 000 (when 36 % of Hogwarts students are muggle-borns, and they are 4 % of all muggle-borns). >Despite the unsoundness of some of your assumptions, I think at >least half your conclusions are at least half right. You can assume I >mostly agree with everything I cut. Wouldn't that make my analysis 75% wrong? Quip aside, which of my assumptions do you find unsound? / Mikael From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 21 13:08:40 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:08:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) References: Message-ID: <005901c397d4$736d26e0$8687aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83316 >Kirstini: . Let him have a little disappointment - a Cho Chang > career - before finding out what he really wants to do/ what he's > really good at. This sort of thing happens a lot to sixteen year olds > receiving their exam results. Iggy here: I wonder why nobody's mentioned the idea that, as much of a deal is made over his flying ability and talent as a seeker, he may be picked up my a major British quidditch team to play for them... An entirely likely possibility, don't you think? (And, if she decides to follow Harry after Hogwarts, she can also add in adventures he ends up on in various cities in which the team plays. Much like the kids in Scooby Doo find mysteries wherever they go... picnics, the mall, spooky old deserted mansions in the middle of a supposedly haunted swamp, the bathroom at the Motel 6... you know.. everyday places.) Iggy McSnurd From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 22 14:19:02 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:19:02 -0000 Subject: Speaking up for Petunia In-Reply-To: <011501c3985e$5207da60$7d570043@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Now, out of the blue, blue sky, they get _another_ fifteen-month- old. Now > Petunia's workload is about doubled (somehow, I "hae me doots" that Vernon > helps around the house---if he knows _how_ to wash dishes or where the > washing machine/dryer are, I'd be very surprised) and it's for a child that > may be bringing all sorts of disasters down on their home. She may well > have seen spontaneous magic from her sister before Lily got her Hogwarts > letter, and been thoroughly frightened by it, particularly if it was at all > destructive. Jen: The still waters of Petunia's resentment run very deep, methinks! I'm sure getting dumped with a toddler she was *persuaded* to keep was part of it. Especially a toddler with Lily's eyes, who reminds Petunia constantly of the conflicted relationship she shared with her sister. And a toddler who also looks "remarkably" like his father, a man Petunia despised. (Shades of Snape here?) And the final blow is the fear she must feel for her own family, a fear we finally glimpse in OOTP. She's accepting a child from a *freaky* (i.e. scary) world, a child who was the victim of attempted murder by a very evil soul who murders people without compunction. No matter what assurances she received from Dumbledore to the contrary (and surely the letter left on the doorstep was not enough to make up Petunia's mind!), she must never feel truly safe after accepting Harry. So adding up all the variables--the extra work, the spontaneous magic, the resentment toward Lily and James for being magical and "getting themselves killed", fear for her own family, pressure from Dumbledore--whew! And she has no one to talk to about all this besides Vernon? I'm actually less surprised she's so ugly to Harry and more surprised she hasn't offed someone by now ;). Vernon gets to toddle off to work every day and pretend Harry doesn't exist, but Petunia is stuck with a constant reminder of the wide gulf between the life she wanted and the life she got. Recipe for disaster. From moviebec at ihug.com.au Wed Oct 22 13:50:43 2003 From: moviebec at ihug.com.au (moviebec) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:50:43 -0000 Subject: House Elves Freedom....& MORE....! In-Reply-To: <20031021141943.29825.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Paula Gaon wrote: > Paula now: Yes, this makes a lot of sense. All throughout the series we see that house elves, by definition serve a house, ie family and take pride in doing so. But, this fact still leaves us hanging. Why was Dobby so ready and willing to leave the Malfoys? Why did he choose to take the sock that Lucius inadvertantly passed him as his ticket to freedom and subsequent betrayal of his family? What in Dobby's background made him the "Elf Exception" (quoting Grey Wolf)? Even more to the point, why does Dobby love Harry so much in the first place? As far as I can remember, throughout canon, we are never given a reason for Dobby's undying devotion to Harry. > For the most part IMHO house elves like their enslavement, and get along reasonably well with their masters. House elves strike me as peacefull magical creatures with a good undrstanding of morals unless otherwise provoked into using their own brand of magic(Kreacher not included). I'm sure Winky was quite happy in her position before the GoF events. However it's clear Dobby is not happy in his enslavement. In CoS Harry says something like "you can't have met many decent wizards". Dobby shakes his head and then horrified starts banging himself up. Later on in CoS Dobby explains What it was like during the dark times "we house elves were treated like vermin, sir! Of course, Dobby is still treated like that, sir, but mostly, sir, life has improved for my kind since you triumphed over He Who Must Not Be Named. Harry Potter survived and the dark lords power was broken, and it was a new dawn, sir, and Harry Potter shone like like a beakon of hope for those of us who thought the dark days would never end, sir...." page 133-134. I think this explanation goes a long way toward a good reason for Dobby being so devoted to Harry's plight. Lucius Malfoy doesn't even treat his own son in a loving or even decent way let alone the enslaved help. Wouldn't you want to be freed from serving The Malfoy's at the first opportunity you got. Death threats every day, constantly having to physically punish yourself, which your master encourages. IMO Dobby only became the exception to the elf rule after gaining his freedom. He liked freedom, but still wanted to work. However he now wanted to be payed for his services. Quite reasonable I think. It's not like he even wanted to be paid that much, he beat DD down to 1 Galleon a week, from memory. Bec Adelaide, Australia Pro house elf union movement!! Can ya tell? From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Wed Oct 22 14:31:44 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:31:44 -0000 Subject: Book 1: Learning to Fly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie" wrote: > I don't know if this was every brought up, but a friend of mine > brought this up and I don't remember reading about it (on this site). > Is there a possibility that Neville's broom was hexed when he was > learning to fly? There is some real similarity with the way > Neville's broom reacted and the way Harry broom reacted during the Q > game. > Sounds interesting to me, but I don't know how it could be. > What do you all think? > Thanks! > Stephanie Now me (Tcy): I always thought it was just a hint at Neville's supressed magical abilities. Whether you believe in SILK GOWNS or any of the other Neville theories or not, it seems obvious to me, that Neville has some (cause still unknown) strong, hidden magic skills and his flying lessons just gave us a glimpse of the fact that he's not as inept as he appears. Just MHO, Tcy From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 14:14:49 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Convention,Clues,andCats Message-ID: <20031022141449.34408.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83320 22Oct03 Hello everyone, After reading the notices of the upcoming HP convention and the planned birthday party for Harry on 31July, I realized that our hero is a Leo, a cat! This has started me to think again about all the references to cats and cat clues in canon: 1) Harry's a Leo. 2) He grows up on Privet Drive next door to Mrs Figg, a squib and cat lover and all of her cats. 3) One of the earliest scenes in the series is Professor McGonnagall's appearance in her cat form (Book 1) on Privet Drive. 4) Harry is sorted into Gryffindor. More importantly the Sorting Hat wants to put him in Slytherin, but he insists on Gryffindor, the lion. 5) Hermione is accidently turned into a cat by the Ployjuice Potion (Book 2). Remember a recent posting on the list stated that this was possibly the scene that JKR wouldn't allow to be edited out? 6) Crookshanks' joining the HRH trio, and obvious affection for Harry. 7) Physical similarities between Crookshanks and Mundungus, who was given the task to watch over Harry(Book5) 8) Harry's vision of Hermione covered in fur during the Occumency lesson, yes, this was strange Is that all, now? The first thing that comes to mind is that cats kill snakes. They're sorely missing in Voldy's crowd. Also, throughout canon, cats have an affinity for squibs (Figg and Filch) and Muggle-borns (Hermione, and Harry). McGonnagall is the obvious exception, but some think that maybe she's Muggle-born. My theory is that cats will somehow play an important role in the final war against the DE's. What this could be can't imagine. So come on, Dears, let's have a little discussion and TBAY. Granny Goodwitch --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 22 15:04:04 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:04:04 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: <3F965139.26107.3FE9193@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > I watch American TV shows supposedly about teenagers (and I'm not stupid > enough to believe those shows are particularly accurate) and the common > depiction of how young people date, and how often sex in their minds seems very > alien to me. That's because my experiences growing up are different - and I think > the same is true of the kids at Hogwarts. What they experience seems very > realistic to me. > And Gorda wrote: I think we may be having a cultural difference here, either between Britain and the US, or between those of us who have been to high school recently and those who, er, have not. Personally, I went to high school in the early 90s in Mexico and although some people were having sex, it was quite rare. Most of us just talked and thought about it non-stop... Now *I* say: I do wonder if we're having a cultural difference here between US & UK kids. Perhaps it's also a boarding vs. public school difference? But while you, Shaun, may be wise to take the US television shows with a grain of salt [mostly because they have gorgeous 20-somethings playing all the "teenagers", with nary a zit nor 30 extra pounds ever to be found--totally ludicrous], I'm not so sure that the amount of sex portrayed is that far off reality here in the U.S. I taught high school, did a counseling practicum in a middle school, and worked w/ teenagers at my church. I also think back to my own h.s. years [graduated in 1980]. Granted, what I'm referring to all concerns *public* school kids, not boarding school kids--and that may be the key difference--but I can tell you, there's a **whole lotta sex goin' on** in America...even as young as ages 13 and 14. American kids are bombarded with dual messages: authority figures telling them, "Don't do it!! It's wrong, sinful, bad, shameful, [fill in your own heavily-weighted term]. You'll get pregnant, AIDS, STDs!" and at the same time they have TV shows and magazines and music videos that all *scream* sexy-sexy-sexy at them from a quite young age [even if parents try to filter/monitor]. It's a confusing message, but I do think many American teens hear that cool kids "do it." Perhaps opportunities are much easier found/made for public school kids than for our Hogwarts gang, or perhaps there really is a difference between U.S. & U.K. mores? Thoughts?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From editor at texas.net Wed Oct 22 15:17:53 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:17:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Convention,Clues,andCats References: <20031022141449.34408.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c398af$aa907b00$ce5aaacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83322 >From Granny Goodwitch's cat examples: > 5) Hermione is accidently turned into a cat by the Ployjuice Potion (Book 2). Remember a recent posting on the list stated that this was possibly the scene that JKR wouldn't allow to be edited out? > 8) Harry's vision of Hermione covered in fur during the Occumency lesson, yes, this was strange I had thought that #8 was accessing a memory of #5. Hermione wasn't completely turned into a cat; she became more like what you'd see onstage at a production of "Cats," at least the way I had read it. Did you think it was (or meant) something else? ~Amanda From phoenixfeder2002 at yahoo.de Wed Oct 22 14:52:18 2003 From: phoenixfeder2002 at yahoo.de (phoenixwriter) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:52:18 -0000 Subject: How to become a ghost Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83323 Sorry if this has already been discussed. I have been thinking about it and wondering why some people become ghosts and others do not. You see, I'm one of those who believe that love is the main theme. If you start to think along that line, then I guess it is pretty interesting that Sirius did not become a ghost, but Myrtle did. I think a person has to be unloved at the point they die. If there is nobody who sheds a tear and nobody who misses the person, then they become a ghost. Nobody missed Myrtle when she died, nobody cried about her. But Sirius had Harry who cried and missed him, so he couldn't become a ghost. He was beloved. Harry's parents were beloved too. Dumbledore and McGonagall missed them and were sad about their death in PS/SS. And Sirius, of course, missed them too. Why didn't Mr. Crouch become a ghost? Because Winky cried for him. According to this theory, will Vodemort become a ghost when he dies or not? No, he won't because he is someone who killed people. Maybe if Riddle died at 15 or 16 like Myrtle, then he would have been a ghost. I think Bertha Jorkins could be a ghost right now. Why do ghosts exist? In order to get a chance which they didn't get when they were alive: to learn to love somebody and be loved in return. That's it. PW From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 15:41:15 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:41:15 -0000 Subject: Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83324 Now we're coming down to specifics on this thread, so I've snipped out great chunks of it where I now understand and mostly agree with Talisman. One area that I've snipped out but still have a question, though: Talisman pointed out that it was much better, for secrecy's sake, that Voldemort whisk Harry away from the heart of the maze during the TWT in order to take his blood and kill him. I agree. This explains why V would not *want* to have Crouch Jr. kidnap Harry from Little Whinging, say, right after Harry returned following his fourth year. But, V seems to think it's not *possible* -- "even I cannot touch him there (GoF, p. 657)." I still wonder why he believes that, if OoP seems to tell us that the protection is only good inside the house. I'm probably driving Talisman around the bend, though, since she's said she has more to say on the subject, but the post is not ready yet... Still, anyone else feel free to take a stab at it! ;-) Okay, now on to the back-and-forth from the thread: ---------------------------------------------------- > Talisman wrote: > According to DD, the charm that uses the blood link between > sacrificed one/home owner/shield beneficiary is "the strongest > shield" he could give Harry. (OoP 836). Either DD is lying, or > there is no equivalent Plan B. > > I actually think that the blood shield 1) is important for > undisclosed reasons 2) will play a role before the end of the > series, BUT 3) I also think DD has lied about its import so far, and > 4) I especially don't think it's "protection" explains/justifies the > 10+ years of abuse to which DD consigned Harry. > > Watch out Annemehr, in saying that you think DD had other options to > keep Harry safe, you are doing a pretty good job of nailing DD as a > liar, too. Annemehr: Well...I just think the rune charm/sacrifice/blood protection *was* the plan B, available in case the Fidelius Charm failed (and I agree that a man as wise as DD would know better than to rely completely on Fidelius). Then, *if* the Fidelius Charm had held, DD is merely consigning the whole Potter family to, say, decades in hiding, rather than Lily and James to death and Harry to an abusive home. In other words, the strongest shield DD could give Harry, since it involved deaths and child abuse, wouldn't be deployed unless Fidelius proved inadequate. Of course, I am aware that you may have further arguments against my scenario that you intend to post in "D.O.L.L.A.R.," so I haven't heard your last words on the subject! ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- Back to the tangential, but fun, subject of the Flesh, Blood and Bone potion: > > Annemehr wrote: > > Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy ingredient. > > > > Talisman replied: > > Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too. (GoF 8-9; 656) But LV > (and DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it > took his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a > plan which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated. > > Annemehr next: > Yes, V *wanted* to use Harry. Really, really, really badly. V > believes he has certain advantages by using him. But, he didn't > *need* him. > > Talisman next: > Sure, he could have used other blood and just put up with having his > body burnt like Quirrell's if Harry got him in another SS grip. But > there was no way he'd do that as long as he had ANY means of getting > at Harry. He doens't just want a body, he wants a body that's going > to defeated his fated adversary. And for that, he *needs* Harry's > blood. Free will or not, it was eminently predictable that LV would > go for Harry's blood. Annemehr now: Yes, that is true. But the reason for the gleam *does* exist. So it would follow from this that V really, really *should have* wanted or needed *not* to use Harry. Either that, or V at once *both* needed to use Harry and not to use him. :-P once again, from V's point of view! Am I seeing a pattern here? 1) If V cannot overcome the Fidelius Charm, the Potters are protected, though confined. If V does overcome the Fidelius Charm, V is vaporised and Lily and James are dead, but Harry, at least, is even better protected. 2) If V fails to get Harry for the resurrection potion and uses someone else, he gets his old body back but still cannot touch Harry. If V is successful in getting Harry for the potion, he doesn't have to worry about touching Harry, but DD now has the "gleam" factor to work with. Dumbledore brilliantly makes everything a two-edged sword for Voldemort. There's contingency planning for you! I wonder if this strategy will become apparent in other areas? I will think about that in the context of Harry's learning Occlumency or not... ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- > Talisman before: > > d) the voice [during priori incantatem, in the graveyard], > "almost as though a friend were speaking in his > ear" that advises H (664); > > Annemehr answered: > It's not a voice. It's the phoenix song, which was the sound he > connected to DD and it was *almost* as though a friend was speaking > in his ear. Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart, and > strikes fear into the evil. And when Harry answered, he answered the > *music.* > > Talisman next: > That's quite poetic, but Harry didn't answer, he followed advice. > > He responded to something that sounds a lot like telepathy to me. A > song that gives hope is one thing, an internal voice that sounds > like Dumbledore and gives good, specific advice is another. Annemehr now: It depends on how you interpret the voices Harry "hears" in his head. I've always interpreted them as his own "inner voice" (even when it sounds like Hermione's -- that one's somwhere in OoP) rather than something magical. It's like my own inner voice I often hear (um, should I be admitting that?). And if Snape is in the graveyard helping Harry (something I agree is possible), how would he get Dumbledore's voice into Harry's head? Though I do take your point that "Don't break the connection" is very specific, it would be an obvious reaction even to Harry -- it's preventing LV from trying to curse him again. I'll quote GoF, p. 664, speaking of the phoenix song: "...It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear.... /Don't break the connection./ I know, Harry told the music, I know I mustn't..." Actually, I don't know why I'm arguing this point, given that there certainly are other odd things going on, except that often enough on the list, people attribute the voices in Harry's head to something other than Harry himself and I (in a personal opinion) don't agree. Still, I certainly have no explanation for why Harry and V were lifted away from the graves, or why James (or Lily, depending on your edition) knew that the Cup would portkey Harry back to Hogwarts. That Snape was there and had the presence of mind to cause these things is the best explanation I've ever read. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ > Talisman wrote: [...] > You also have to join the Graveyard Scene to the rest of the book. > If you take all the evidence in GoF that DD planned for the > Graveyard Scene and was totally on to Fake!Moody, it negates the > possibility that he didn't have protections in place. Annemehr: I missed the evidence that DD was on to Fake!Moody -- and I haven't read GoF yet since you first said that he was. When exactly did DD catch on? Are you asserting he knowingly send Fake!Moody into the Forest to search for Crouch Sr. (and murder him), or is this event what tipped him off? ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- Annemehr winding down for now and off to do a little "real" work (what, like this stuff isn't truly important?) From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 16:19:03 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:19:03 -0000 Subject: Boarding school (WAS: Re: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83325 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "adsong16" wrote: > > JKR has said that she never went to boarding school, and I must say it shows. > I particularly note the long stretches of unsupervised time that kids have > (evenings after dinner, say 6 pm or so, and all of Saturday and Sunday, not to > mention holidays). In American boarding schools there is rarely unsupervised > time for the kids, with the thought that "idle hands are the devil's playground." > Usually after dinner there is a study hall, during which the staff makes sure the > kids are doing their homework, and no more than an hour or so until lights-out > (kids must be in bed and quiet). > Gorda I think that just because there aren't "physical" people in the HP common room during their free time doesn't mean they are not supervised. Remember, the pictures can move and talk. When Prof. McGonagall is needed she is there in a minute. Dumbledore seems to know every move that is going on. (Maybe from his chocolate frogs). I think that in the HP universe the students are watched a little more closely than even they know. Diana From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 16:25:27 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:25:27 -0000 Subject: How to become a ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixwriter" wrote: > Sorry if this has already been discussed. > > I have been thinking about it and wondering why some people become > ghosts and others do not. > snip > > Why do ghosts exist? In order to get a chance which they didn't get > when they were alive: to learn to love somebody and be loved in > return. > > That's it. > > PW JKR has said that it's the people who aren't the happiest in life that become ghosts, so not being loved is obviously an important factor, but I'm not sure that love has everything to do with it. Nearly Headless Nick (in the last chapter of OotP, but I'm not quite sure where, because I don't have my book with me at school) seems to imply that becoming a ghost is a choice that people make when they die, and it depends on the kind of person that you are whether you will make the choice to "cross over" or stay behind. (Sirius for example, probably would not have ever become a ghost because he hates being cooped up, values his freedom, and is always up for "the next great adventure". Myrtle, on the other hand, wanted nothing more than to make Olive Hornby sorry she made fun of Myrtle's glasses, and she clearly succeded.) It also seems like the choice is irreversible: that once you are a ghost you can't ever "cross over". It's a one shot deal, so it's not like once you find love you get to move on; Myrtle is, after all, still stuck in her girl's room. So it seems to me like there is something more important behind why people become ghosts, but it does support the constant theme of the stories: it is our choices that make us who we are, even as ghosts. However, you do bring up an interesting point. I can picture the Bloody Baron having a very depressing and loveless life (perhaps having something to do with his unfortunately bloody clothing). Meri From rredordead at aol.com Wed Oct 22 17:00:15 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:00:15 -0000 Subject: Convention,Clues,andCats In-Reply-To: <20031022141449.34408.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83327 Granny Goodwitch After reading the notices of the upcoming HP convention and the planned birthday party for Harry on 31July, I realized that our hero is a Leo, a cat! This has started me to think again about all the references to cats and cat clues in canon: 1) Harry's a Leo. 2) He grows up on Privet Drive next door to Mrs Figg, a squib and cat lover and all of her cats. 3) One of the earliest scenes in the series is Professor McGonnagall's appearance in her cat form (Book 1) on Privet Drive. 4) Harry is sorted into Gryffindor. More importantly the Sorting Hat wants to put him in Slytherin, but he insists on Gryffindor, the lion. 5) Hermione is accidently turned into a cat by the Ployjuice Potion (Book 2). Remember a recent posting on the list stated that this was possibly the scene that JKR wouldn't allow to be edited out? 6) Crookshanks' joining the HRH trio, and obvious affection for Harry. 7) Physical similarities between Crookshanks and Mundungus, who was given the task to watch over Harry(Book5) 8) Harry's vision of Hermione covered in fur during the Occumency lesson, yes, this was strange Is that all, now? The first thing that comes to mind is that cats kill snakes. They're sorely missing in Voldy's crowd. Also, throughout canon, cats have an affinity for squibs (Figg and Filch) and Muggle-borns (Hermione, and Harry). McGonnagall is the obvious exception, but some think that maybe she's Muggle-born. My theory is that cats will somehow play an important role in the final war against the DE's. What this could be can't imagine. So come on, Dears, let's have a little discussion and TBAY. Now me: Interesting. I had thought the abundance of cats in the saga was the same as the abundance of Redheads...that they are the two things that are commonly associated with being a witch. Also a cat is one of the animals familiars (along with Owls, Rats and Frogs) students are allowed to bring to Hogwarts. What are the uses of these 'pets'? Just a thought. Mandy From timothy.collinson at solent.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 13:44:35 2003 From: timothy.collinson at solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:44:35 +0100 Subject: Boarding school (WAS: Re: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83328 "Shaun Hately" wrote: >But the fact that what is going on, only seems to be at a low level - >likewise, that doesn't seem problematic to me. It seems perfectly >plausible. Absolutely agreed here. >I'd certainly be very interested to hear from anyone whose experiences >were at schools even closer to the Hogwarts model - but I'd say mine >are closer than most of the people on the list, even though they were >in a different country. I'm in the UK and went to boarding school. I'd have to say that with the possible exception of the unsupervised evenings (we had "prep" every weeknight), and of course magic, Hogwarts could pretty much be my school. The houses, the rivalry, the bullying, the 'old world' feel, teachers (and even prefects) handing out detention and so on, it's all there. Indeed some of my memories - such as crawling around under the floorboards of the main school and climbing into the organ loft and swapping similarly sized organ pipes around until we couldn't get them back correctly which caused a lot of trouble at Saturday morning choir practice could come straight out of some of JKR's chapters. OK, one other difference: our food wasn't up to much... As for the interest in the opposite sex - it was there but I agree with Pshemekan that Rowling has it about right right. I understand what Arya is saying and don't doubt that you weren't exceptional in your culture - but your description is very alien to my experience. (I was *very* 'backward' with girls at this age [1] - but most of the people I knew were pretty similar.) There were exceptions but again, I'd say JK is spot on. >Arya--who wonders what magic there is to replace the batteries in her love life. Nice line - I shall have to remember that one. tc [1] certainly compared with what I see portrayed on American tv programs! From chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int Wed Oct 22 14:02:38 2003 From: chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int (chiara.fantoni at cec.eu.int) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:02:38 +0200 Subject: Filch and semantics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83329 Still waiting to see if my previous message will go through my ever-attentive elf, here's is another small idea, bear with me, will you? bookraptor11 wrote: >I'm wondering if it was Dumbledore who abolished the chaining of >students when he became Headmaster, or even successfully campaigned >for their elimination while he was just a teacher. Filch said in COS >that he missed the screaming; we don't know how long he's been >caretaker. Perhaps he was never allowed to use this punishment and is >just nostalgic for his own student days, sick little puppy. The verb "miss" can mean two things: - I was there at the time the "screaming" happened, I liked it and I feel it should still be there nowadays but it isn't. - I am too young to have witnessed the "screaming" so I didn't happen to witness it. It would be clearer if I had the actial quote and see whether Filch says "I miss" or "I missed", in the first instance I would tend to believe the "I wish it was still the case", in the second I'd rather think about "I wish I had been there". The two interpretations might lead to different situations concerning Filch and he being a caretaker and/or a student (I doubt since canon says he's a squib). Any opinions welcome! Not sure my English teacher would be proud about me elaborating on this kind of literature, I know she is for other reasons, and no English is not my mother-tongue. Chiara From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 22 14:25:11 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:25:11 -0000 Subject: Book 1: Learning to Fly In-Reply-To: <004d01c3974d$2b7a09c0$39ea79a5@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83331 Stephanie: > > Is there a possibility that Neville's broom was hexed when he was > > learning to fly? There is some real similarity with the way > > Neville's broom reacted and the way Harry broom reacted during > > the Q game. Iggy McSnurd: > Hmmm... > Could be that Quirrel tried to figure out which broom was most likely to be > used by Potter in the flying class, and hexed it. When that didn't work, he > determined that he would have to actually see the broom Harry was on to make > sure he got the right one. So he hit the broom Harry was on during the > Quidditch match to try and avoid suspicion by being "lost in the crowd." > > (Madame Hooch may tend to have a "seating chart" of where to line up by your > brooms, and Quirrel tried to exploit that... But for some reason or another, > the places got switched around from the alphabetical by something as simple > as people gravitating towards friends they had already made.) Geoff: I would tend to take an opposite view. I think that for Quirrell to be able to hex a specific broom would be very difficult. The students had already arrived before Madam Hooch and unless they had positions marked in some way would tend to stay with friends etc. Also, there seems to be a difference in the way the brooms' reactions are described. "But Neville, nervous and jumpy and frightened of being left on the ground, pushed off hard before the whistle... Neville was rising straight up like a cork shot out of a bottle - twelve feet - twenty feet. Harry saw his scared white face look down at the ground falling away, saw him gasp, slip sideways off the broom and - WHAM.... His broomstick was till rising higher and higher and started to drift lazily towards the Forbidden Forest....." (UK edition pp.109/10) "His broom gave a sudden, frightening lurch. For a split second, he thought he was going to fall.... He'd never felt anything like that. It happened again. It was as thought the broom was trying to buck him off. But Nimbus Two Thousands did not suddenly decide to buck their ridrs off. Harry tried to turn back towards the Gryffindor goalposts...... and then he realised that his broom was completely out of his control. He couldn't turn it. He couldn't direct it at all. It was zig-zagging through the air and every now and then making violent swishing movements which almost unseated him." (ditto p.139) To me, these are different. Neville kicked off too hard, fell off and the broom continued on the same trajectory having no further instructions. I iamgine it's a bit like falling out of a dinghy and it drifts in the direction you push it as you fall.Harry's broom seemed to be quite intent on unseating him and was obviously responding to external directions (i.e. Prof.Q) and refusing to respond to it's rider's control. Geoff From flitwicksman at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 16:40:25 2003 From: flitwicksman at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:40:25 -0000 Subject: Dolores Umbridge (Goblin?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83332 James McDaniel wrote: > While I firmly believe that Umbridge is a part human herself, I > cannot be certain as to what exactly she is. Upon reflection though, my guess is that in her veins runs Goblin blood. She is > devious, scheming, and opportunistic. She is short and stubby (not Boardman), with a huge mouth and eyes, and tends to become > frighteningly aggressive at those times that she loses herself. > All of these I believe to be Goblin traits. My thoughts though tend > to be that she appears too human to be half-goblin, and that most > likely one of her parents was a half-breed, thus leaving her as one > quarter Goblin; a small enough amount to fool those around her, but > just enough that, as hard as she may try, she cannot fool herself. > This I see greatly exacerbating the hatred that she, for whatever > reason, misdirects towards all part humans. > If Delores is indeed part Goblin, she could be far more important in the two upcoming books as Goblins may be a key in the coming war. We know that both sides are courting them in book 5, and every time > they have been brought up in HISTORY OF MAGIC, it has been in > relation to the great Goblin rebellion when they, for a time, > overthrew wizarding kind. >>> Please forgive me for replying so late on this post as I had recently considered the possibility myself and checked the archives to see if this subject had been brought up and found this one. I am now in my fifth reading of OOP and have found myself also noticing the discription of Umbridge as short with stubby fingers as well as at least one mention of her razor sharp teeth. Knowing how history has demonstated only too many times of the great hatred of some toward another will usually be the result of some form or another of self-loathing. Hitler was believed to have had some Jewish blood in his veins, Charles Manson, who hated blacks, may very well have some black blood. The list goes on. Many times the expression of such hatred is a shield of protection serving to keep one's own "shame" a secret. I agree with James that Delores Umbridge may very well play an important part in the next two books, particularly where the Goblin rebellions may come in. Something I am curious about is whether or not Goblins are supposed to be scared of ghosts. Did anyone notice that Umbridge never did inspect Professor Binn's class? Brian:-) From tallulah_sam at hotmail.com Wed Oct 22 15:59:59 2003 From: tallulah_sam at hotmail.com (tallulah_sam) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:59:59 -0000 Subject: Boarding schools- Clearing it up!(was: no sex please..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83333 Ok I'm going to try and maybe clear some bits up for you all, although obviously I'm no expert! I have recently left secondary school here in Britain (2 years ago), and I'm now at college. I live in an area renowned for its boarding schools & although I do not go to one I know people that do and as there are schoolgirls and boys all over the place I've got a pretty good idea of what's going on! As for the young people and sex argument, well I'm afraid to say that it's half and half! Of course there were lots of people doing it, even more talking about it and there was a huge amount of pressure to go along with it, but there was also a lot of bravado, and if you got down to the truth lots of people were just lying. I do think that the books are slightly unrealistic in this sense, but there's an obvious reason for the omission, they are *children's* books! As for boarding schools there is the general idea here that the schoolgirls and boys (i.e. private schoolers) are even more up for it than us, and the girls especially are known for being rather liberal!! As for the amount of free time they get- they generally get most evenings from about 7 but cannot leave the grounds, they have lessons on a Saturday morning until lunch but have the afternoon off, and they have to go to church early on Sunday morning but once again have the afternoon off. They are quite restricted and have to be in their dorms by a certain time but I don't honestly think this is too dissimilar to Hogwarts, as it doesn't seem to teach any religious studies or compulsory sports! Hope this helps and doesn't sound too know-all-ish! Tallulah X From pip8195 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 11:41:52 2003 From: pip8195 at yahoo.com (rymon) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 04:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031022114152.53181.qmail@web14806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83334 --- Kirstini wrote: > Say Harry does live > , does > anyone think he will actually make it into Auror > school? It doesn't > seem likely to me, for several reasons. Rymom: Perhaps that Harry "merely" loses his powers when/if LV is defeated. Redemption and sacrifice are, IMP, big issues in the series. I can see a "sacrifice" of powers being an option for the end of the series. From kmsyarto at hotmail.com Wed Oct 22 15:47:52 2003 From: kmsyarto at hotmail.com (marigoldevans) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:47:52 -0000 Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83335 D wrote: > > I think there will be 10 books total in the series. You've got 7 in > the "Hogwarts series" and another 3 after that for Auror training. > > I think JKR is setting the ground work to continue even after Harry > has left Hogwarts. Or maybe this is just wishful thinking on my > part.> Kirstini wrote: > Ah, if only (Kirstini, firmly in the Dead!Harry camp, adjusts her > homemade FEATHERBOA)! > However, this got me thinking. Say Harry does live , does > anyone think he will actually make it into Auror school? It doesn't > seem likely to me, for several reasons. > > 1. I don't think his Potions mark will be high enough. > **** > Harry corked his sample flask feeling that he might not have achieved > a good grade but he had, with luck, avoided a fail. (OoP, Bloomsbury, > p 632) > **** > Surely we aren't going to see Harry bumped up a grade or two because > he's the famous Harry Potter? Yes, McGonagall has pledged to support > him, but she has also been particularly scathing about the Ministry's > corrupt dealings with Willy Widdershins - she's not going to > encourage the same sort of thing within the education system, is she? > > 2.There are other ways of fighting Voldemort/evil. > Neither of Harry's parents were old enough to be fully-fleged Aurors > (another reason why they weren't at school with the Longbottoms, > IMHO), and yet had escaped him "three times" by the time Sybil made > her prediction. > 3. Is it likely that an exhausted 18 year-old, fresh from defeating > The Most Powerful Dark Wizard For A Century, even one as gung ho as > Our Young Hero, is going to jump right back on the Dark-beating wagon > again? It's always been all go for Harry. With the major goal > completed, I imagine he'd probably want to stop for a break. > 4. We are told that being an Auror was the only career path Harry had > seriously considered, but this ambition is a comparatively new one, > and was put into his head by Crouch!Moody in GoF. Harry is attracted to Auror (ism? > Aurorship?) because he has formed a rather glamourous (well, as > glamourous as any job done by Mad-Eye Moody could ever seem)idea of > what it involves. Let him have a little disappointment - a Cho Chang > career - before finding out what he really wants to do/ what he's > really good at. This sort of thing happens a lot to sixteen year olds > receiving their exam results. Hi! I joined this group only a few days ago and have been lurking ever since. However, the glee brought on by this message has me skipping out into the sunshine. I totally agree with you, Kirstini, that Harry will not become an Auror. Not only do his Potions grades not support it, but he isn't doing too well in his other classes, considering the academic requirements of the job. But, more importantly, I think JKR and canon are both hinting at what he will become... a teacher at Hogwarts, specifically the DADA teacher. I know that most people tend to interpret the allusion JKR has made about one of the characters becoming a teacher to mean Neville. And until OoP, I might have agreed. But she did say that the person was one that we might not expect, and IMHO Neville is a rather obvious choice. Less so is Harry, who thinks being an Auror would be cool. But there are several references in OoP that seem to support the idea that Harry might be happiest as a teacher at Hogwarts. 1. Ch. 16, pg. 331 (Am. ed.)---Harry, before ever agreeing to form the DA, "...found himself subconsciously planning lessons...." 2. Ch. 19, pg. 397; Ch. 21, pgs. 451, 454, 455; Ch. 23, pgs. 501- 502; Ch. 25, pg. 553. Most of these are statements to the effect of how happy he is about the DA and their efforts. But the one that best summarizes Harry's feelings and supports the idea that this might be his future career path is in ch. 27, on pg. 606: "He sometimes felt that he was living for the hours spent in the Room of Requirement, working hard but thoroughly enjoying himself at the same time, swelling with pride as he looked around at his fellow D.A. members and saw how far they had come." Sounds like a teacher to me. Here's where the glee part comes in. JKR has said that she would end after seven books, when Harry left Hogwarts. But, what if he didn't leave? Imagine the fun she could have with Harry on the faculty now having to deal with Snape as a colleague, Harry moving up through the ranks to become the next Dumbledore, Harry mentoring the future Harry Potter. A silly grin spreads across my face just thinking about it! Of course, this is all dependent on Harry's survival. Another scenario I can easily envision is that, broken beyond all repair by his fight with LV, Harry willingly walks through the ancient arch in the Death Room at the DoM. Anyway, there it is for what it's worth. "marigoldevans" From lhuntley at fandm.edu Wed Oct 22 18:27:00 2003 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:27:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <539263F0-04BD-11D8-B1F0-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 83336 Kristini: > However, this got me thinking. Say Harry does live , does > anyone think he will actually make it into Auror school? It doesn't > seem likely to me, for several reasons. For the record, I (tentatively) *don't* believe that Harry will become an Auror. However, I believe that this will be a personal decision, rather than the result of a bad Potions grade. Also, what's so funny about The Boy Who Lived...well, *living*? ^_~ Actually, I'm way too unsure about this subject to even offer an opinion. Honestly, I could see JKR taking it either way and, of course, making it work beautifully. > 1. I don't think his Potions mark will be high enough. I don't know if I want to deny this flat out, but I will say that I can definitely see JKR doing what she did with DADA in OotP. Namely, that we suddenly find out that Harry was much better at the subject than he/we suspected. Now, I'm not saying that Harry might suddenly become a Potions prodigy (heh, alliteration!). However, given Snape's *loathing* for Our Dear Hero, I think it's plausible that he (and, therefore, us) have been led to believe that he's much worse at it than he really is. On the other hand, you may be exactly right. ^_~ > > > 3. Is it likely that an exhausted 18 year-old, fresh from defeating > The Most Powerful Dark Wizard For A Century, even one as gung ho as > Our Young Hero, is going to jump right back on the Dark-beating wagon > again? It's always been all go for Harry. With the major goal > completed, I imagine he'd probably want to stop for a break. I think there are two main schools of thought on this topic, the first being yours (that Harry will have spent the majority of his life fighting Voldemort and will, understandably, be sick of it by the time he's out of Hogwarts). The second is that fighting the Dark Side is an integral part of *Harry*. As Hermione put it, he *does* have that saving people thing. Whether he wants to rest or not, can you really see Harry and his hero complex sitting back and, say, playing Quidditch for England when there's Evil to be fought and innocent lives to be saved? A hero is what Harry *is* (as much as he may protest it), not some sort of day job he can quit when he feels like it. Truth be told, I'm not really sure which camp I'm in on this one. They both seem perfectly reasonable outcomes. HOWEVER... > 2.There are other ways of fighting Voldemort/evil. > Neither of Harry's parents were old enough to be fully-fleged Aurors > (another reason why they weren't at school with the Longbottoms, > IMHO), and yet had escaped him "three times" by the time Sybil made > her prediction. Ditto all Marauders and Snape - and yet they were all > highly active/instrumental in the First War. (Bill and Charlie aren't > Aurors either, but then they have spy value) I really don't think Harry will end up an Auror, because there *are* other ways of fighting evil that seem more his style, *and*... > 4. We are told that being an Auror was the only career path Harry had > seriously considered, but this ambition is a comparatively new one, > and was put into his head by Crouch!Moody in GoF. I just think it's unlikely that Harry will have decided on the final course for the rest of his life at the age of 14, based on the suggestion of an evil professor impostor. > If Potions are essential to Auror training, and Hary is not a > particularly talented > potion-maker, it seems only logical to conclude that he wouldn't be > successful in this part of the job. Harry is attracted to Auror(ism? > Aurorship?) because he has formed a rather glamourous (well, as > glamourous as any job done by Mad-Eye Moody could ever seem)idea of > what it involves. Let him have a little disappointment - a Cho Chang > career - before finding out what he really wants to do/ what he's > really good at. Fighting Evil *is* what Harry's really good at, as witnessed (among other things) by his proficiency at DADA (which, I point out again, he had no idea he had, until OotP). I think Aurors simply need to be good at *all* types of magic (makes sense, when you think about it), and I don't think their Potions requirement is anything Harry couldn't pass with a bit of effort. Another thing it seems that Harry is good at is, of course, teaching. I'm sort of disappointed that JKR has ruled out that job possibility of him (you'll have to take my word on that one, sorry. I'm too lazy to look up the interview that it was in). It seems like teaching DADA at Hogwarts would be ideal for him - esp. as Hogwarts seems pretty much the headquarters of the Good Guys when the going gets rough, so he'd still be in the thick of things, fighting-evil-wise. Laura (who thinks this must be the most indecisive post she's ever written) From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Oct 22 18:32:13 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:32:13 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Please Send OT Posts to OTChatter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83338 Greetings from Hexquarters! Just a quick reminder that off-topic posts (entertaining as they are!) are not permitted on this list. We require that posts to the main list make a canon point and discuss the words or works of JKR. We have an entire HPFGU-OTChatter list for off-topic posts. It's a fun and friendly place where people enjoy talking about all sorts of things, and it can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter For further information, check out our posting guidelines at www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin/ Thanks! Debbie Elf for the list admin team From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 22 18:37:15 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:37:15 -0000 Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > However, this got me thinking. Say Harry does live , does > anyone think he will actually make it into Auror school? It doesn't > seem likely to me, for several reasons. I don't think he'll become an auror, but his ambition to become one is critical to defeating Voldemort, because it leads him to take exactly those classes that are important to the ultimate confrontation (DADA, transfiguration, charms and yes, potions). > 1. I don't think his Potions mark will be high enough. > **** > Harry corked his sample flask feeling that he might not have achieved > a good grade but he had, with luck, avoided a fail. (OoP, Bloomsbury, > p 632) > **** Go back and re-read the description of how he felt about all his OWLs (except DADA where he clearly performed at an O+++ level). In my opinion, he did very well on most classes, but he tends to magnify his errors due to lack of confidence. It is said that he found the potions theoretical exam difficult, not that he could not do it (and he did well on at least the polyjuice question). It is also mentioned several times through the book that Harry does just fine in potions when he is not distracted by Snape. I don't know if he will get an O in potions, but I am sure it will be at least an E. I am also certain he'll be in potions in 6th year - can you imagine not reading about his confrontations with Snape any more? :-) How will Snape be convinced to take him? Perhaps Malfoy will also not get an O and Snape would be unable to make a special case for him without letting Harry take the class as well. > Surely we aren't going to see Harry bumped up a grade or two because > he's the famous Harry Potter? No, but Harry is bright enough to get at least an E on all his important classes, which should be enough to get him into the NEWT level classes that he needs. > 2.There are other ways of fighting Voldemort/evil. > Neither of Harry's parents were old enough to be fully-fleged Aurors We don't know that, do we? > 3. Is it likely that an exhausted 18 year-old, fresh from defeating > The Most Powerful Dark Wizard For A Century, even one as gung ho as > Our Young Hero, is going to jump right back on the Dark-beating wagon > again? I agree with that assessment. But I think he'll reach that conclusion (not to be an auror) only in the 7th book. >If Potions are > essential to Auror training, and Hary is not a particularly talented > potion-maker, it seems only logical to conclude that he wouldn't be > successful in this part of the job. I have seen no aurors brewing potions - and can't see what good they'd do them. Seems to me that potions is required as a background - you have to be able to identify dangerous substances and perhaps prepare them if you need them. But it's not central to the job as it would be for a healer, say. Much more important would be charms, DADA and transfiguration. Salit From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Oct 22 18:38:20 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:38:20 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > 2. What if the 'Prank' was the first overt clash between Snape and > the Gang? > > Not if it took place when they were 16... > > And, if we assume that Dumbledore spoke the truth to Harry in PoA > (don't swallow your tongue, Kneasy!), then he (DD) didn't know about > it and thus, probably didn't actively encourage WPP in their > efforts. I know, he spent time dropping all sorts of hints in their > hearing and then turned a blind eye to whatever they might have been > up to... > > Marianne I appreciate the points you make, but (no, BUT) I have this itch (tasteful comments only, please). Just *why* did Snape listen to Sirius and go down that tunnel? What did Sirius say to/tell Snape? If there had been trouble between them already I can't see Snape being gullible enough to accept his word without severe doubts about motive. If there had already been trouble, I can't imagine them talking on any sort of level except the exchange of insults. Lack of previous hostile action is the only plausible explanation I can come up with, even if the evidence tends to counter it. I suppose that DD must tell the truth sometimes, even if accidentally. He keeps wittering on about truth being precious and everytime he does I remember Churchill's quote "In wartime, truth is so precious she must constantly be attended by a bodyguard of lies." And this is a war. That sums up my feelings about him and what he says. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Oct 22 19:02:21 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:02:21 -0000 Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > > Ah, if only (Kirstini, firmly in the Dead!Harry camp, adjusts her > homemade FEATHERBOA)! > However, this got me thinking. Say Harry does live , does > anyone think he will actually make it into Auror school? It doesn't > seem likely to me, for several reasons. > Most of the posters seem to believe that Harry sees himself as a sort of young Lochinvar. It is his quest, his sole aim, to rid the world of evil. I don't agree. Harry is a most reluctant hero, he just wants to get out of this alive. Here's this personification of evil, dogging his footsteps, ruining his form at Quidditch, causing mayhem and destruction at every turn. Anyone would think he has a grudge of some sort. Harry does not want to fight Voldemort, but everyone seems to expect him to. He might consider that Auror training could enhance his life expectancy, but I don't think it will happen. The books end long before he could reasonably start training, so I think this is all a red herring. Can Harry beat Voldy? No, not on his own. Any one on one, Voldy wins. Unless, of course, Harry's incredible luck strikes again - Voldy trips over his pet snake and impales himself on Pettigrews silver stake. That might do it. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 22 19:03:15 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:03:15 -0000 Subject: Subject: Why did Harry survive? (WAS: dragon blood & and the Eyes) In-Reply-To: <20031021200938.50289.qmail@web40020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Paula Gaon wrote: > > It's bothered me all throughout the series how Harry keeps surviving. Really, how could a baby survive the AV curse? Siriusly Snapey Susan here: I enjoyed the posts about how DD, Hagrid, & Snape might all have been part of the protection placed on Harry, and that it involved dragon blood. At this point, though, I'd like to respond just to the above question. I hesitate to offer my view because I'm afraid my next paragraph will open a can of worms, but I'm going to anyway.... Isn't it possible that Harry survives because in some way Harry is "the chosen one"? I'm *not* saying JKR is making Harry into a Christ figure necessarily, but there's obviously "something about Harry"... something which provides him with powers others do not have. I mean, I have never bought that Harry got all his powers *in transfer* from Lord Voldy's attack on him. I believe he had some special power *before* the attack which allowed him to deflect it. It's true that LV transferred some of his powers to Harry as well, but I think Harry came fully equipped with something even more magical than your average magical wizard. Clearly some magical power is gained through learning and practice, but sometimes witches and wizards are just *gifted*--either with special abilities [morphmagi, for instance--born, not made] or with extra-strong magical powers [Tom Riddle/LV & Dumbledore, for instance]. What's to keep us from believing that Harry Potter truly was *destined* for something...and that he *came into this life* already possessing special powers or abilities that no other witch or wizard has ever had? Perhaps I'm wrong and you all think I'm nutters--that it truly was just the combination of Lily's sacrifice and the magical protection DD placed on Harry--but I think it's more than that. I think those two things have helped him survive, first, to an age where he could safely discover he's a wizard; and then second, to young adulthood, at which point he is beginning to be old enough to understand/develop those special abilities he possesses. Siriusly Snapey Susan From two_flower2 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 18:24:59 2003 From: two_flower2 at yahoo.com (two_flower2) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:24:59 -0000 Subject: Snape in the Godric Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83343 This topic has been extensively discussed both at this board and HP Movie. I snipped the part of a Movie thread message (to the Mods: it refers to the books, so don't shoot me, let me post it). --- In HPFGU-Movie at yahoogroups.com, "Diana_Sirius_fan" wrote: > There has been a lot of speculation about Snape being at Godric's > hollow the night that Lily and James were killed. ... I then went > back and read SS and there is a line in there that would fit this > movie theory. Harry is having a dream and he is wearing Prof. > Quirrell's turban which is talking to him, telling him to transfer > to Slytherin. Malfoy is laughing, but Malfoy turns into Snape. > Harry then hears a high cold laugh then a flash of green light. > (sorry, don't have the book in front of me to know exact words.) > Probably Snape and Voldie were both there and this is what Harry is > remembering in his dreams. The thing is, I started wondering if Voldie might have been residing in Snape's body, when he went to the Godric's Hollow to kill the Potters that night . After all, Tom Riddle possessed Ginny in CoS and Voldie possessed the snake in OoP during the attack on Artur. Maybe, it's his usual technique... Voldie might have felt more secure, going to confront that baby in somebody else's hide *g*. Snape, driven by Voldie's mind, killed James and tried to drive away Lily, telling her "Stand aside, you silly girl" (a very Snape-like phrase, which Harry hears during the Dementor-induced flashbacks in PoA"). But he had to kill her, too :( And then, then... I can only speculate that the rebounded curse drove Voldie's mind out of Snape's body... When Snape put himself together a little, instead of finishing off little Harry, he brought him to Dumbledore! (OK, to Hagrid.) That's why D-dore trusts Snape so much. I like my theory, because this situation is sure to skyrocket both Snape-angst and tension between Snape and Harry in future books. Lots of drama for our reader's satisfaction. However, the questions I ask myself are: * Where was Voldie's body when (OK, if) he possessed Snape, and what happened to it afterwards? Indeed, where was Voldie's body when he was possessing the snake during the attack on Arthur? * Letting Voldie possess Snape, was it just some scheme by Snape & Dumbledore, which aimed at saving all Potters, but went badly awry? Or was it Voldie's initiative, which took them all by surprise and Snape could do nothing about it... * What destroyed the house? * Why not kill Lily? LOLLIPOPS, anyone? And so on... Twoflower2 From mev532 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 18:53:44 2003 From: mev532 at yahoo.com (Mev532) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:53:44 -0000 Subject: Tonks - the deatheater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83344 INGE SAID: > In OotP we are introduced to Tonks, the Metamorphmagus. It seemed > wrong that she didn't become known later in the books as someone who > actually *used* her skills as a Metamorphmagus. > So this idea came to me. What if indeed she does use her skills and > changes into someone else on a regular basis. Into someone we already > know but who is no longer of any real importance in the books - at > least not to us, the readers. > What if Barty Ferm Jr still exists - on special occassions. Tonks > could Metamorph into Ferm Jr and take his place at the DE-meetings > and get information directly from Voldemort to pass on to the Order. > > Inge I love the idea of Tonks being some other character without the reader knowing it. I like your theory about her transforming into Barty Jr, but I do see one thing wrong with it. LV's skill in reading minds would make it easy to spot an imposter. Hiding the fact that you are lying is one thing, but disguising your mind so well that it appears to be someone else's? With her laid back attitude and young age it seems unlikely that she would have the mastery of Occlumency required to pull this off. You never know, but thats my two cents. I think, however, that we will find out she has been tailing Harry as someone else. The only person I can think she might be, however, is Susan bones, the "Hufflepuff girl with a long plait down her back whose name Harry did not know"(338, American version OOTP). She says Madam Bones is her auntie. Perhaps DD talked ith Madam Bones (who is presumably on his side) and she agreed that Tonks could pretend to be her niece. This way Tonks could follow the happenings of the DA. This theory is not well researched, but I will keep an eye out for evidence as I continue rereading the book. Anyone have any other thoughts or evidence for or against my or Inge's theories? Thanks. -Big HP fan Dave From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 19:13:29 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:13:29 -0000 Subject: Possession (Was:Re: Ponderables...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83345 > > Annemehr : > > I think it's quite a complicated subject, actually, where it may be > > too easy to make assumptions (something Harry seems to do > much too often, unfortunately). I also have to wonder about LV's > possession of Nagini (if it was indeed she) at the time of the > attack on Arthur, and whether he caused her pain or injury at the > time. I can't imagine him wanting to do that to Nagini, because > at the very least he risks losing her trust. Does he actually have > the ability to possess "gently" but is never interested in doing so > except for Nagini?<< Pippin: > Or maybe there's something special about Nagini herself? I'm > thinking of the Black Riders' steeds in LOTR, able to endure their > undead riders though all other animals panic in their presence. > > Ginny has no memory of her blacked out periods, so she may > have experienced pain that she doesn't remember. In fact Riddle > says that when he made her go down to the Chamber, she > "struggled and cried." PK: You know, this is also interesting in that it suggests there was some awareness on Ginny's part of what was going on. Perhaps not conscious, but "struggled" suggests something a bit more purposeful than simply convulsing in pain. It could still be reflexive, or I suppose Riddle could be being misleading (he's so awkward as a source of information!), but still.... I do think Nagini is special, though I don't know if it's in that way particularly; according to the description, if I'm remembering right, she was about the size of the large constrictors, maybe bigger -- most venomous snakes are smaller. I'm inclined to think she's some variety of magical serpent. Still, perhaps it would have been more relevant to point out to Harry that given he'd been physically present and human in his bed all along, it would be somewhat unlikely that Voldemort accomplished a snake attack on Arthur Weasley at the Ministry by possessing him! PK From eberte at vaeye.com Wed Oct 22 19:27:16 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:27:16 -0000 Subject: Convention,Clues,andCats In-Reply-To: <003d01c398af$aa907b00$ce5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83346 Amanda wrote: > From Granny Goodwitch's cat examples: > 5) Hermione is accidently turned into a cat by the Polyjuice Potion > (Book 2). Remember a recent posting on the list stated that this > was possibly the scene that JKR wouldn't allow to be edited out? > > 8) Harry's vision of Hermione covered in fur during the Occumency > lesson, yes, this was strange > > I had thought that #8 was accessing a memory of #5. Hermione wasn't > completely turned into a cat; she became more like what you'd see > onstage at a production of "Cats," at least the way I had read it. > Did you think it was (or meant) something else? I read it the same way as Amanda did--I believe that Harry's vision during Occlumency of Hermione covered in fur was a memory of the Polyjuice-Potion-gone-awry incident from CoS. But still I agree with Granny Goodwitch that it was strange. That memory seemed out of place with the others in the same group (...am at work without the book, but I seem to recall that the rest of his visions were of childhood humiliations, Cho's teary kiss, etc.) Why was the memory of Hermione as a cat included with all that other embarassingly personal stuff? (Frankly, Petrified!Hermione seems like a more disturbing memory to me than Furry!Hermione.) Harry and Ron did not even seem to be too worried about the Hermione-as-a-cat incident at the time it occurred. Why would Harry have buried that memory in his subconscious? Elle (staring into space, wondering *what it all means*....needs to snap out of it and get back to work!) From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Wed Oct 22 20:57:44 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:57:44 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 References: <6.0.0.22.0.20031022084556.0278ce40@pop.bredband.net> Message-ID: <36cb01c398df$6b3e4d80$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83348 Mikael Raaterova wrote: > Robert Shaw, replying to me; > >> I'm a mathematician, not a sociologist, but your reasoning looks >> sound, given your assumptions. > > Well, that's a relief. Of course, my assumptions may still be > invalid, but that remains to be discussed... > > > >> As an aside, much of that increase is actually due to immigration. >> How do wizards deal with that? [Snipped analysis shows immigration makes no noticeable difference to the numbers, though it could create interesting situations for the rare people involved]. > > Migration don't affect the wizard population in any > dramatic way, > > Sorry, i meant to say *wizard* population. > [Snipped analysis confirms given assumptions reasonable for for the UK] Lets think about the Colonial US. Assume, reasonably enough, that no purebloods emigrated. A few may have done, but they weren't subject to the same pressures as muggles. Assume also that native american wizards didn't interact much with the colonials. This means that for the first few generations after Jamestown, most colonial wizards will have been muggle-born, or the children of mixed marriages. Arrangements may have been made to get them to Hogwarts, or they may have had only minimal magical education. Eventually new pureblood families would have been formed, and new schools of magic founded, but continuity of tradition would have been lost. Migration only makes a major difference to the wizarding population if it changes the muggle population by an order of magnitude, because of various damping effects. No such migration has happened in the UK since at least Viking times, but it has happened in some of the ex-colonies. Mikael also said, in reply to me: > > The weakest point in the analysis is the die-off function. The > inflexion point and slopes of the mortality curve is pure guess-work, > since we have no indication whatsoever of how wizarding age-group > mortality is differentiated, except that at high ages it has to be > lower than for Muggles, or the ages of Dumbledore and Marchbanks > would be impossible. Looking at causes of death helps refine our guesswork slightly. The accident and violent death rates spike amongst adolescents, particularly males. Young wizards are more likely to kill themselves playing quidditch than driving dangerously, but the effect will be the same. Similarly, if some teen wizard finds his girlfriend in bed with his friend, he's as likely as any muggle to get violent, and rather more likely to have a deadly weapon close at hand. (Of course, most adolescents are pretty responsible, but the overall death rate at that age is low enough that a minority of hotheads can drive it up significantly.) I'd therefore guess that the death rate from 15-25 is about the same for wizards and muggles. Deaths below fifteenish are pretty rare. Children are disproportionately unlikely to die in anything except a major disaster. The wizard death rate will be slightly lowly, but the numbers are so small it won't cause any significant error to assume that the death rates are the same today. The difference only shows up once wizards pass 25ish, by when wizards and muggles have calmed down. A reasonable enough assumption, partially supported by cross species comparisons, is that the death rate after 25 can simply be linearly stretched. I.e, if the wizard life expectancy is 125, and for muggles 75, then the death rate for wizards at age n is the same as for a muggle aged 25+(n-25)*(75-25)/(125-25)=(n+25)/2. This puts Dumbledore in the wizarding equivalent of the muggle mid-eighties age bracket, which sounds about right. Since there are fewer wizards than muggles, there won't be the equivalent of the exceedingly rare 120 year old muggles. I'd put the maximum wizard life span at 100 equivalent, which is 175. Mikael then said, again in reply to me: > >> Despite the unsoundness of some of your assumptions, I think at >> least half your conclusions are at least half right. You can assume I >> mostly agree with everything I cut. > > Wouldn't that make my analysis 75% wrong? Or 100% right, or anywhere in between. I'm sure some of my conclusions are partly wrong too. >Quip aside, which of my > assumptions do you find unsound? > Principally, the assumptions about death rates, together the other unspoken assumptions needed to come to any conclusion. I know they're necessary, but they still feel questionable. -- Robert From ajiva at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 20:27:47 2003 From: ajiva at yahoo.com (Azeem Jiva) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:27:47 -0000 Subject: How I think book 7 will end Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83349 Hi everyone, I hope this gets through, everytime I try to post my messages never show up. AHh well, I've been thinking what if book 7 ends this way: Harry Potter and Voldemort are fighting, both are tired and weak almost ready to collapse. They are in the death chamber in the MOM. Voldemort decides to try one last bit of trickery and takes over Harry's body. Harry though has figured out how to resist, so rather than controlling Harry, Voldemort is now trapped in his body, as they both fight for control. Then Harry in a self sacrificing move, walks through the Arch way, effectively killing both. What does everyone think? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 21:40:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:40:52 -0000 Subject: Wizarding numbers: 24,000 ... give or take a few In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031020140901.0278d460@pop.bredband.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mikael Raaterova wrote: > To summarize my findings below: > > - About 30 percent of Hogwarts students are muggle-borns > - No more than half of the 11-17 years old wizard-borns in the > British isles attend Hogwarts > - The wizarding population is about 24 000 (bounded at 20-30 000) > > ...edited... > > Feel free to poke holes in my reasoning. I'm not entirely convinced > that my attempt holds up to scrutiny, but i don't think i made any > glaring errors. > > ...edited... > > Whew. If you managed to wade through this delusional demographic > debate to the bitter end, you have my deepest respect. > > / Mikael bboy_mn: First a question, why no more that HALF the wizard-borns enrolled in Hogwarts? I would think that more like 90% to 99.999% of young UK wizards would go to Hogwarts. Perhaps, I misinterpreted what you said. Next, as a general point, let's remember that the bulk of the wizard world is mixed blood. Mikael estimates about 30% muggle born, and 7.5% historically pureblood, leaving 62.5% mixed blood. That may not be precise, but it seem pretty close to me. To the point- Well, I don't debate your excellent demographic analysis, and I did manage to make it through to the end, although I confess that my head was befuddled and spinning. However, I should warn you that many people have spent many countless hours trying to determine the Hogwarts and the Wizard World population. They have used assumptions about the Hogwart population to extrapolate the wizard world population, conversely, they have used assumptions about the size of the wizard world to determine the Hogwarts population, and ever combination in between. Also, people have taken they real life experience and tried to transfer that to the wizard world and Hogwarts. Example; my town has 'X' number of people, and it has 'Y' number of kids in high school, therefore, Hogwarts, and by extension, the wizard world must be 'this' big. And for every detailed analysis, a dozen people jump in to point out the flaws and/or why they disagree. The only consistant conclusion we have reached is that it's impossible to reach any even remotely accurate or consistent conclusion. Most likely because the numbers simply don't add up. Let's take a very simple model. Based on the CIA Worldbook of Facts... http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html ...approximately 9.25% of the UK population is included in the age span of 11 through 18 (7 year span). JKR has said that Hogwarts has 1,000 students. Expanding the numbers tells us that the wizard world population is about 10,800 people. Do I beleive that? NO. I don't believe it because reading the book gives me the very distinct impression that the wizard world is much large than that. The number and range of businesses, (Import/export, retail stores, manufacturing of finished goods, manufacturers of basic manufacturing materials, processing of raw material, acquisition of raw materials, warehousing, distribution, and transportation of goods, the service industry, multi-national businesses like Gladrags) and the size of government and infrastructure aren't consistant with a population that small. Remember for every business you see, there are probably 10 or more businesses backing it up. Take Fortesque's Ice Cream; spoons, forks, plates, cups, bowls, counters/cabinets/cupboards, cold storage, window glass, carpenters, stone masons, metal workers, foundaries, lumberjacks, furniture, paint, sign makers, tables, chairs, farmers, dairies, fruit growers & distributors, etc.... Based on my reading overview of the wizard world, I estimate a population in the 5 figures (+50,000) to the very low 6 figures (125,000). Can I back that up with data? No, only with my impression. But the impression we are left with from reading the story MUST be JKR truest measure of the world she intented to create for us. If we assume some validity to that belief, then we are left with the task of explaining the inconsistancies we see rather than trying to resolve the numbers. Example: a population of the size of my impression seems far too big for the only school to have only 1,000 student, and as far as 1,000 student, based on what we see, that is unlikely to be an exact head count and more likely to be a generalization about the relative size of the school. Meaning that while 1,000 may represent the general size of the school over the course of it's history, it is probably not an accurate reflection of the current enrollment, which we assume is down. So how do I explain the inconsistency? JKR has said, slightly paraphrased, that Hogwarts is the only college of witchcraft and wizardy in the UK, but that doesn't rule out other lower schools of magic. That's one of my many theoies. Hogwarts is a college level school and the only 7 year school of witchcraft and wizard. (Remember in the UK, 6th and 7th years are the equivalent of 2 years of junior college in the USA.) So I propose that there are other 3 and 5 year schools of magic. These are more like modern techincal and trade schools. Others speculate that there are craftsman guilds and similar organization that have apprentice/journeyman programs that teach wizards highly specialized trades. Can I prove any of that? No, but both the magic schools and craftsman guilds are reasonable and historically accurate models that can be used to explain the discrepancy between the large size of the wizard world population and the small size of the Hogwarts school population. First and foremost, I think we must accept that no analysis will ever add up; the populations are inconsistant. However, knowing that certainly shouldn't spoil the fun of trying to find a reasonable solution to the inconsistancies. As I pointed out, my own personal method is to take my impression of the number of students and wizards, and try to come up with (sometime fanciful) explainations for those impressions. Another approach might be to ask, how many people, or perhaps, how few people does it take to sustain an ethnically identifiable population? Again from the CIA Worldbook of Fact are some examples of small contained populations- Note: population distribution Y= age 0 to 14 (Youth) A= age 15 to 64 (Adult) S= age 65 and over (Senior) British Virgin Islands ... pop=21,730 (Y=22%, A=73%, S=5%) Cayman Islands ... pop=41,932 (Y=22%, A=71%, S=8%) Island of Samoa ... pop=70,260 (Y=38%, A=57%, S=5.4%) Island of Aruba ... pop=70,844 (Y=21%, A=68%, S=11%) Principality of Liechtenstein ... 33,145 (Y=18%, A=71%, S=11%) ...between Switzerland and Austria Andorra ... 69,150 (Y=15%, A=72%, S=13.2%) ...between Spain and France So, while I choose to see a population near 100,000; the facts above would seem to support the possibilities of much smaller populations sustaining themselves with government, commerce, industry, and a unique identity. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From amani at charter.net Wed Oct 22 21:42:28 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:42:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) References: Message-ID: <001401c398e5$67063a60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83351 > "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" wrote: >You missed two other examples: the pair caught by Snape in the bushes > during Yule Ball, and Patil's horror when she realised that Crouch/Moody > can see through clothes ("Nice socks, Potter!"). > > But I don't think, that Hogwarts is "awfully innocent". For 15 years > old, sex in count-legs-and-divide-by-two sense is quite remote. I mean, > for females much more important is all that romantic nonsense: hugging, > holding hands, sharing emotions etc. As for boys, most of them at this > age are still not sure what the heck is happening with them. Arya: This a sterostype where girls are good and boys are horny at best, if that is, if they manage to figure out what they want. I think I might offer my own testimonial that girls, even at the ages of 15 thru 17, do indeed want and think about sex and *gasp* are doing it. Divide the legs, and way more than that. And I do in fact speak of my own personal experience when I was in high school between 1990-1994. Taryn: I'll speak up as someone currently 16, female, and in high school and agree. Girls are just as hormonal as guys, but it does seem more common for girls to be able to hide it a bit better. And maybe have a bit more self-restraint. :P However, most of the girls I know /do/ love the fuzzily romantic gestures, too. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 22 21:51:13 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:51:13 -0000 Subject: Lily and James not Aurors (Was - Could Harry really be an Auror?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83352 I wrote: >>Neither of Harry's parents were old enough to be fully-fledged Aurors>> To which Salit replied: > We don't know that, do we?> 'Fraid so. Check out the Lexicon at http://www.hp- lexicon.org/james.html. James, Lily et al were born in 1960. By 1981, they would have been 21 - possibly a few of them still 20 - and if full Aurors then only just graduated. And to have escaped Voldemort three times in that small period between graduation and Halloween? Unless Auror training includes a massive practical element (ie, out there, fighting on the field), or was speeded up during the war, I imagine that they were working against Voldemort in completely different ways, to give them the practical experience of having escaped him three times between leaving school and Sybil making her prediction. They had done all this escaping before the prophecy, not as a result of it. He must have been after them for some other reason - and why pursue Aurors-in-training so personally? Why not just get a minion to do it? Also remember that the 20-year old Lily was heavily pregnant during what would have been her final, and presumably most intensive year of Auror training (asuming that they follow Hogwarts academic years). Not quite "too young" - my emphasis was misleading, sorry - to be Aurors, but very nearly, and too young to have any significance within that career path. Dumbledor may recruit Aurors, but it strikes me that training Aurors is the Ministry's way of policing Dark activity, not his. That "meddling" = spying seems more likely to me. Somehow. Kirstini From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 22 22:06:14 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:06:14 -0000 Subject: Tonks - the deatheater In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mev532" wrote: > > I love the idea of Tonks being some other character without the > reader knowing it. I like your theory about her transforming into > Barty Jr, but I do see one thing wrong with it. LV's skill in > reading minds would make it easy to spot an imposter. Hiding the > fact that you are lying is one thing, but disguising your mind so > well that it appears to be someone else's? With her laid back > attitude and young age it seems unlikely that she would have the mastery of Occlumency required to pull this off. > > Of course somebody else already did this, none other than Barty Crouch Jr. himself, who managed to fool Dumbledore, who can also read minds, into thinking he was Mad-eye. It would certainly be fitting to play the same trick on LV... but I see another problem. Fudge will certainly have told Lucius Malfoy what happened to Barty Jr., so how could it remain a secret from LV? Pippin From grannybat at hotmail.com Wed Oct 22 22:07:03 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:07:03 -0000 Subject: T-BAY: DRIBBLEing Ashore (was Harry's Eyes & Dragon's Blood) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83354 It was a lovely autumn day at Theory Bay: Crisp blue skies, warm sunlight sparkling off a calm sea, and no wind to speak of. This was a very good thing, indeed, because the lone figure struggling through the waters between the SHIPS was having a hard enough time as it was. Life preservers were not designed for speedy locomotion; the foam doughnut merely kept its occupant safely above water until other persons should haul said occupant to safety. Unfortunately, the Bay was deserted. Again and again a voice cried out--to no avail. Not a soul stirred on the many decks. The Bay might as well have been a graveyard. Trying very hard not to dwell on that thought, the waterlogged woman kicked her way around the prow of a schooner and caught a glimpse of the shore. Something was moving on the sand...something just large enough to be human. "Ahoy! Witch overboard! S.O.S!" The shape on the shore froze, seemed to peer out at the water, then performed some complicated arm movement. After a moment a loud 'pop' sounded, and a young woman with an expression of affable curiosity materialized next to the figure in the water. The lifeguard was seated in a inflatable plastic pool chair shaped like a green dragon. She smiled. "Hi. I'm Jen Rees. Did you want rescuing?" "Yes, please," said the bedraggled woman, extending a wet hand. "Grannybat84112. You may call me Grannybat." Jen took the proffered handshake and squinted at the silver letters on the black life preserver. "That's interesting. I don't remember a ship named the DRIBBLE anchoring in the Bay." "Ah, the DRIBBLE isn't the name of the ship. Take me to dry land and I'll explain." Jen conjured a tow rope--the inflatable chair wasn't big enough to carry two--then engaged a propulsion charm. The google-eyed dragon chugged them back to shore at a leisurely pace. "So how did you fall overboard?" Jen asked. "Unintentionally. I only meant to test the waters, really, to dip my toe in. That magazine article referring to `Little Snoring' annoyed me so much?and then Amanda's notes about the 12 uses of dragon's blood caught my eye, and, well, having lately had more experience with oven cleaner than I ever desired, suddenly I made the connection, and I must have overreached myself...I slipped right out of the airlock. I didn't realize my dragon's blood post was so long? "The DRIBBLE has an airlock?" "No, dear." Grannybat shifted the lifesaver so the acronym rested in front of her. "DRIBBLE stands for Dragon's Resistance In Blood Bestows Life-saving Effects: >> Given that knocking out a single dragon requires stunning spells >> cast by half a dozen full-grown wizards...perhaps dragon's blood >> is an ingredient in the most powerful protective spells. >>...Flitwick describes the Fidelius Charm as "immensely complex." ... (major snip) >> Dragon's Blood as Protective Ingredient would neatly tie together >> Snape's and Hagrid's post-Hogwarts involvement with the Potters.... (snip) >> DBPI (hmm, gotta work on a real acronym) may even fit the recent >> theory that Harry's scar originally signified a protection rune >> drawn on his skin. Certainly that bit of info would fit with JKR's >> secrecy. Fortunately, I was able to transfigure the pathetic DBPI into a full- fledged acronym before going down for the third time. I chose DRIBBLE in reference to that ever-so-important sentence from Flesh, Blood, and Bone: 'Wormtail, still panting with pain, fumbled in his pocket for a glass vial and held it to Harry's cut so that a dribble of blood fell into it.' The theory isn't big enough to float an entire ship, but it covers enough details to keep a single individual from sinking. Hence the life preserver." Both Jen's head and the plastic dragon's swivelled around to stare at Grannybat, eyes alight with inspiration. "Wow," Jen said, " I think you're on to something. Here's a little canon: > "Dragons are extremely difficult to slay, owing to the *ancient > magic* that imbues their thick hides, which none but the most > powerful spells can penetrate." (emphasis mine). (GOF, US, chap. > 20, p. 338) The older woman, who had conjured a lace-edged hankie, beamed as she dabbed at her face. "Exactly. The supply list for First-years at Hogwarts specifically requires `one pair of protective gloves (dragon hide or similiar).' Why wouldn't a dragon's blood contain at least as much protective quality as its hide? There's also a fashion corollary: Bill Weasley wears dragon hide boots during his first meeting with Harry, at The Burrow in GOF. The twins show up to meet the Hogwarts Express wearing jackets of "finest dragon skin" at the end of OOP. Couldn;t these later prove to function as a form of body armor?" Jen, however, was not occupied by thoughts of fashion statements. Her eyes were flashing. > You got me thinking about JKR, upset by a picture of Harry without > his glasses, saying "don't they know that's his most vulnerable > area?" (paraphrased). Grannybat sat up straighter (as straight as it is possible to sit up in a life preserver ring). "Did she say this at a fan meeting of some sort? Can you point me toward a primary source? I don't recall seeing this bit of information before...." > So he's vulnerable in the eyes like a dragon-- > what if he actually has some dragon blood in him now or is > protected by "essence of dragon blood"? "Meaning...Harry's poor vision came about as a side effect of the DRIBBLE protection placed on him? Intriguing thought." Grannybat pulled three hardback books from a beaded reticule dangling from one wrist. She flicked through several pages, frowned, and began stuffing the books back into the tiny purse. "I looked up all the instances of Harry's father appearing (in human form) in PS, GOF, and OOP. No mention is made of James wearing glasses during Snape's pensieve memory or when he emerges as a shade from Voldemort's wand. He IS wearing glasses when he appears in the Mirror of Erised...but that could just be Harry's wish for a father with whom he can instantly identify. Although Lily's eyes are mentioned frequently, she's never described as wearing glasses. So maybe Harry's nearsightedness IS NOT a congenital defect inherited through James. The DRIBBLE connection is looking stronger and stronger...." Suddenly the smile congealed on her lips. "I just had a horrible thought: The dragon hit by Krum's Conjunctivitis curse trampled half her eggs `in agony.' Oh, my, this could be foreshadowing for unintentional but fatal damage Harry may inflict on the people in his protection when (if! If!) his vulnerability is exploited!" The inflatable dragon looked even more alarmed than the passenger it was towing. Jen stroked the pool chair's plastic head. "There, there," she said, > Perhaps it also explains the "gleam of triumph" in DD's > eyes, because now DD knows where LV will be vulnerable as well. The dragon relaxed. So did Grannybat. "And JKR never fails to note Voldemort's slit pupils whenever he makes an appearance. Oh, I like that!" They had reached the shallows. Jen kept talking as they splashed their way up to dry, white sand. > Then there's the whole deal about Lily and Harry's "green almond- > shaped" eyes and the Common Welsh Green Dragon, when Lily is > supposedly from Wales (or Godric's Hollow is in Wales, I forget > which). "It's been speculated that Godric's Hollow is located in Wales," Grannybat pontificated, "thru the connection with Godric Gryffindor. I don't believe canon has ever given us the origins of Lily's family-- although I do seem to recall, in the misty recesses of my memory, being told that Evans is a name of Welsh origin. But, yes, the color is suggestive. (Fred and George's jackets have a greenish tinge.)" Now that her feet were on terra firma, the newcomer dropped the lifesaver. She pulled what Jen had mistaken for a long, ornate silver hatpin from her drooping chapeau, pointed the lethal-looking tip at herself and intoned a drying spell. The antique lace and soggy black velvet of her dress didn't exactly snap to crisp attention, but it did perk up a bit. "Well," the woman said, picking up and examining the lifesaver?-which looked much stronger and more buoyant than it had at first sight-? "it's a start." Grannybat whose respect for the T-BAY regulars has reached new heights now that she's experienced how LONG it takes to pen a decent post From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 22:08:10 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:08:10 -0000 Subject: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Azeem Jiva" wrote: > Hi everyone, > I hope this gets through, everytime I try to post my messages never > show up. AHh well, I've been thinking what if book 7 ends this way: > > > Harry Potter and Voldemort are fighting, both are tired and weak > almost ready to collapse. They are in the death chamber in the MOM. > Voldemort decides to try one last bit of trickery and takes over > Harry's body. Harry though has figured out how to resist, so rather > than controlling Harry, Voldemort is now trapped in his body, as they > both fight for control. Then Harry in a self sacrificing move, walks > through the Arch way, effectively killing both. > > What does everyone think? Richard here: Won't happen, as it is a little too ... too ... simple, and misses with regard to the first prophecy, which says that "either" must die, and "either" means "a or b, but not a AND b." So, one dies, not both, and I can't see Voldemort being left alive at the end of the story. Richard From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 22:10:02 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Elves, Freedom...&More Message-ID: <20031022221002.81804.qmail@web40010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83356 22October03 Bec wrote: For the most part IMHO house elves like their enslavement, and get along reasonably well with their masters. House elves strike me as peacefull magical creatures with a good undrstanding of morals unless otherwise provoked into using their own brand of magic(Kreacher not included). Paula now: Yes, I have to agree here. Kreacher would be more of an exception in his disenchantment with Sirius, inspite of the fact that Sirius, as far as we know, has never mistreated Kreacher. What make Kreacher love the Pure-Bloods so if they were the ones who'd mistreated House Elves? Bec: ...However it's clear Dobby is not happy in his enslavement. In CoS Harry says something like "you can't have met many decent wizards". ...Later on in CoS Dobby explains What it was like during the dark times "we house elves were treated like vermin, sir! Of course, Dobby is still treated like that, sir, but mostly, sir, life has improved for my kind since you triumphed over He Who Must Not Be Named. Harry Potter survived and the dark lords power was broken....death threats every day..." page 133-134. Paula: Thanks a lot! Sorry, I don't have a copy of COS here, remember now. But this brings up another question. Exactly how did Harry's defeat of He Who Must Not Be Named improve the life of House Elves? Why would House Elves have been subject to death threats when Voldmorte was in power? Makes me think that the DE's were vying for their alliance. The DE's are still active, so why are they being treated better now-except Dobby? Bec: "IMO Dobby only became the exception to the elf rule after gaining his freedom. He liked freedom, but still wanted to work. However he now wanted to be payed for his services. ..." Paula: OK, we see now why Dobby wanted freedom from the Malfoys, but why was he not treated better after LV's downfall like the other House Elves? Makes me suspect involvement of MoM since Lucius is still pretty powerful there. What do you think? Paula "Griff" Gaon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 22:18:16 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:18:16 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83357 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S & R Ranch" wrote: > I have been wondering where were Mr & Mrs Weasley when Sirius, Lupin > Tonks, Moody & the others came to Harry & the others rescue at the > MOM? > Her "wonderful clock" (as DD put it)would have shown Mrs W. that 2 of > her children were in mortal danger! So why would the parents not come > to the aid of their own children? Richard here: It is not enough to know THAT someone is in mortal danger. One must also know WHERE that person is in mortal danger in order to be able to do something as specific as being in the relief column. Also, as the Wesley parent would likely presume that the two kids in mortal danger were at Hogwarts, their first inclination might be to seek information there, rather than at 12 Grimmauld Place, which likely puts them behind schedule in finding out what is happening and where, when compared to the folks at Order Headquarters. This assumes, of course, that the older Wesleys were there to see the clock, and thus to know that two of their children were in danger. As these two are their youngest, and the next two older children had recently left Hogwarts for careers their mother heartily disapproved of, it would not be too presumptious to think that the parents weren't even at home. They might well have been at The Leaky Cauldron, so as to be nearer Gred and Feorge, and trying to talk sense into them. In the end, though, we will never know where they were, what they were doing, or why, unless JKR tells us. But until she does, there is no reason to suppose a Flint or an inconsistency is to be found in their absense, and ample room is available for relatively baseless speculation. Richard From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Oct 22 22:29:02 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:29:02 -0000 Subject: Convention,Clues,andCats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83358 --- Elle asked: [In connection with Harry's recollection of Polyjuiced-Feline-Hermione during occlumency lesson with Snape] > Why was the memory of Hermione as a cat > included with all that other embarassingly > personal stuff? [Cho's kiss, childhood > humiliations, etc.] .... Harry and Ron did > not even seem to be too worried about the > Hermione-as-a-cat incident at the time it > occurred. I believe the text explains -- please pardon the lack of a specific reference, as I too do not have the text with me -- is that all of the memories were ones Harry particularly did not wish to share with Snape. (It's unclear if that is just how legilimency works, if Snape was particularly aiming for the most "hidden" memories, or if there is another explanation for how the memories were selected.) It is fairly easy to see why the Polyjuice memory would fall into that category: Hermione's predicament was visible evidence not only of the trio's rulebreaking, but specifically of their use of a potion that could be made only with ingredients stolen from Snape's private stores. Snape already suspects Harry of stealing from him, but heretofore has had no proof. -- Matt From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 23:09:16 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:09:16 -0000 Subject: Filch and semantics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83359 bookraptor11 wrote: >>I'm wondering if it was Dumbledore who abolished the chaining of students when he became Headmaster, or even successfully campaigned for their elimination while he was just a teacher. Filch said in COS that he missed the screaming; we don't know how long he's been caretaker. Perhaps he was never allowed to use this punishment and is just nostalgic for his own student days, sick little puppy.<< Chiara: >The verb "miss" can mean two things: - I was there at the time the "screaming" happened, I liked it and I feel it should still be there nowadays but it isn't. - I am too young to have witnessed the "screaming" so I didn't happen to witness it. The two interpretations might lead to different situations concerning Filch and he being a caretaker and/or a student (I doubt since canon says he's a squib).< KathyK: I made a quick skim through SS and CoS. Firstly, I thought the reference to Filch missing the screaming came from SS, not CoS. Second, I thought that was a line from the movie that didn't make an appearance in the book. I looked for the line in the books but didn't catch it. If anyone could point me to a page number, it would be greatly appreciated. What I did find relating to Filch's nostalgia for the old punishments is from SS (US ed. 248): "I bet you'll think twice about breaking a school rule again, won't you, eh?" he said, leering at them. "Oh yes...hard work and pain are the best teachers if you ask me...It's just a pity they let the old punishments die out...hang you by our wrists from the ceiling for a few days, I've got the chains still in my office, keep 'em well oiled in case they're ever needed..." It sounds as if Filch has had experience with being the torturer of students. Saying he's *still* got the chains in his office makes me read it as Filch having used them in the past. However, OoP leads me to believe he's never before had chance to use the methods he so relishes. He basically says that he gets to torture the students *finally* as if he's never done so before. He makes no mention of having actually done any student torturing before despite his having the chains and whips (OoP-Filch had the whips all ready when he got his Approval for Whipping) available. OoP, US 628-629: "I've been telling Dumbledore for years and years he's too soft with you all," said Filch, chuckling nastily. "You filthy little beasts would never have dropped Stinkpellets if you'd known I had it in my power to whip you raw, would you now? Nobody would have thougth fo throwing Fanged Frisbees down the corridors if I could've strung you up by the ankles in my office, would they: But when Educational Decree Twenty-nine comes in, Potter, I'll be allowed to do all them things..." And OoP, US 673: "Approval for Whipping...Approval for Whipping...I can do it at last...They've had it coming for years..." Well, that's all I've got for now, KathyK From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Oct 22 23:12:14 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:12:14 -0000 Subject: Student Teacher (Was: Could Harry really be an Auror?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marigoldevans" wrote: > > But, more importantly, I think JKR and canon are both hinting at what > he will become... a teacher at Hogwarts, specifically the DADA > teacher. I know that most people tend to interpret the allusion JKR > has made about one of the characters becoming a teacher to mean > Neville. And until OoP, I might have agreed. But she did say that > the person was one that we might not expect, and IMHO Neville is a > rather obvious choice. Neville is not an obvious choice at all. JKR said it in the connection interview 1999, even before GoF. And at this time, Neville was about the most unlikely candidate, you can imagine. And even more important, here is what she said: "Is Harry going to be a Hogwarts teacher?" "No, but someone else will stay on at Hogwarts, and it won't be who you would expect [in other words: not Hermione]. And, no, it's not Ron." So, probably no teacher Harry. I still think he will become auror. He should be able to get the results he needs in DADA, Charms and Transfiguration. That only leaves Potions as a problem. Or maybe they'll take him anyway, if he defeats the Dark Lord. Hickengruendler From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 22 23:25:40 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:25:40 -0000 Subject: prophecy - defy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83361 If this has been discussed before could someone direct me to the right posts, I searched the archives but couldn't find anything. Thanks. I was thinking about the prophecy (again) and suddenly the word defy stood out. I assume the prophecy is talking about Lily, James and Voldemort. But this leads to some problems imo. To defy someone doesn't one need to be in contact/know someone personally? English is not my first language, but I wouldn't use the word defy in context with someone I don't know personally (at least as it is used here `defied him'). If James and Lily were the ones who defied Voldemort wouldn't that mean they had to know him personally and pretty well too? And if so how/where did they get to know him and what reason did they have to know him? And to defy him three times, wouldn't that mean they had a lot of contact? My Oxford dictionary defines `defy' as: 1) openly resist or refuse to obey To not obey someone wouldn't that mean they had reason/were expected to obey but didn't do it? What reason would they have to obey him in the first place? Or how would they get into a position where they were expected to obey? 2) challenge to do or prove something How would they get into the position to challenge Voldemort, that implies to me that they actively though him out. I don't think this is the meaning of `defy' used in the prophecy. Also I always understood it that the defying was done with an action (like refusing to do something) and not a fight/duel. Any comment? Did I understand the meaning of the word `defy' wrong? sachmet96 From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Oct 23 00:44:30 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:44:30 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > > 2. What if the 'Prank' was the first overt clash between Snape and > > the Gang? > > > > Not if it took place when they were 16... > > > > And, if we assume that Dumbledore spoke the truth to Harry in PoA > > (don't swallow your tongue, Kneasy!), then he (DD) didn't know about > > it and thus, probably didn't actively encourage WPP in their > > efforts. I know, he spent time dropping all sorts of hints in their > > hearing and then turned a blind eye to whatever they might have been > > up to... > > > > Marianne > > I appreciate the points you make, but (no, BUT) I have this itch (tasteful > comments only, please). I am the *queen* of tasteful, and wouldn't dream of make any sort of quetionable comments regarding your itches! > Just *why* did Snape listen to Sirius and go down that tunnel? > What did Sirius say to/tell Snape? > If there had been trouble between them already I can't see Snape being > gullible enough to accept his word without severe doubts about motive. > If there had already been trouble, I can't imagine them talking on any > sort of level except the exchange of insults. I agree with you - what we know now (or think we know) still has a lot of holes. Could Sirius come up with a plausible (to Snape) story that he could tell with a straight face that Snape wouldn't treat with the utmost suspicion? Doesn't seem likely. Yet, if Snape and James truly hated each other from the get-go, and James and Sirius were best friends, it also doesn't seem likely that there would be a field of neutrality between Sirius and Snape. > Lack of previous hostile action is the only plausible explanation I can > come up with, even if the evidence tends to counter it. I hope JKR clears up the mystery sometime over the next two books... Marianne From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Thu Oct 23 00:46:12 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:46:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How I think book 7 will end References: Message-ID: <002d01c398ff$0f047a60$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 83363 From: Azeem Jiva Hi everyone, I hope this gets through, everytime I try to post my messages never show up. AHh well, I've been thinking what if book 7 ends this way: Harry Potter and Voldemort are fighting, both are tired and weak almost ready to collapse. They are in the death chamber in the MOM. Voldemort decides to try one last bit of trickery and takes over Harry's body. Harry though has figured out how to resist, so rather than controlling Harry, Voldemort is now trapped in his body, as they both fight for control. Then Harry in a self sacrificing move, walks through the Arch way, effectively killing both. What does everyone think? Joj: Sounds good, except.... can Harry and V fight beyond the veil and then Harry get spit back through? Harry has to live!!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 01:14:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:14:26 -0000 Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? ...False Assumptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83364 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > ..., does anyone think he will actually make it into Auror school? > It doesn't seem likely to me, for several reasons. > > 1. I don't think his Potions mark will be high enough. bboy_mn: McGonagall never said Potions was a REQUIREMENT for being an Auror. The requirements are 5 NEWTs of 'Exceeds Expectations' or better. There is nothing that itemizes those 5 NEWTs, so presumably they could be anything. When McGonagall and Harry discuss the subject, they are itemizing the classes that would logically come in valuable to an Auror. Harry could have 5 NEWTs in Tranfiguration, Charms, DADA, Herbology, and Care of Magical Creatures. Obviously those aren't the best classes for an Auror, but they would be acceptable (presumably) given Harry's reputation. In addition, as it stands now, Harry's grades are not likely to be high enough to get him into SNAPE'S potions class because Snape only takes those who get an 'Outstanding' on the OWLs. But that is Snape's problem, that's not a requirement of all potions teacher, and it's not a requirement of the Ministy. IF, and you will notice that is a BIG 'IF', there were another potions teacher in Snape's place, Harry could very easily get into Advanced Potions class. So why would there be another Potions teacher, you may ask? Perhaps Snape will finally get the DADA teaching position that he has always wanted. There is no doubt that he is infinitely qualified for it, so why not? These are dark and dangerous times, and no one else is willing to take the class. Last term Dumbledore couldn't find a single person to take it, so the Ministry appointed someone. We certainly don't want that to happen again. > Kirstini: > > 2.There are other ways of fighting Voldemort/evil. > bboy_mn: Agreed. Harry is already fighting the Dark Arts quite effectively without being an Auror. He certainly could continue to do so. It was said by JKR and somewhat implied in the book that James was sufficiently wealthy that he didn't need a regular job, and being one of the most brilliant student to ever come through Hogwarts, he really didn't need any extra Auror training to be a powerful and effective Dark Arts fighter. > Kirstini: > > 3. Is it likely that an exhausted 18 year-old, fresh from defeating > The Most Powerful Dark Wizard For A Century, ... is going to jump > right back on the Dark-beating wagon again? > bboy_mn: I think Harry already has a perfectly good alternate career lined up for himself, he just doesn't realize it yet. My personal view is that Fred and George will not simply pay Harry back the G1,000 Tri-wiz money, partly because I don't think Harry will want to take it back. So Fred and George will just let it slide, and instead, unknow to Harry, make Harry a partner in what will certainly be a very large and successful company. By the time the fighting is all over, Fred and George will tell Harry that because of his investment in Weasley Enterprise (it's grown considerably so it's an 'Enterprise' group of companies now) he is now even richer than he was before. Given his reputation as a powerful wizard, public figure, national hero, and all-around nice guy, he will be a powerful asset to the company. Harry being thoroughly tired of people trying to kill him, will gladly accept the Weasley Twins invitation to become an active partner in the business. Good times and vast fortunes were had by all. > Kirstini concludes: > > 4. We are told that being an Auror was the only career path Harry > had seriously considered, but this ambition is a comparatively new > one, and was put into his head by Crouch!Moody in GoF. ...edited... > This sort of thing happens a lot to sixteen year olds receiving > their exam results. > > Okay, preparing to duck. > Kirstini. bboy_mn: I think Harry has secretly pondered Auror as a profession on and off for a while, just as all boys ponder the exciting adventurous careers of astronaut, firefighter, policeman, secret agent 007, superhero, world explorer and adventurer, etc... etc... But to some extent, I think he sees it as cool in the Saturday afternoon matinee sort of way. He hasn't had to face the mundane and frequently boring reality of it yet. So, I too am convinced that Harry will have had his fill of Dark Wizard fighting by the time all this is over. Given his current wealth, the wealth I predict he will inherit from Sirius, and the wealth he will earn from Weasley's business enterprises, Harry will spend his life comfortably wealthy, engage in business ventures and charitable endeavors, and traveling the world with his friend and longtime companion, Ron Weasley (<-...insert companion appropraite to your own personal fan fiction persuasion). That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From snapesmate at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 01:29:43 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:29:43 -0000 Subject: when did the prank take place? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: Could Sirius come up with a plausible (to Snape) story > that he could tell with a straight face that Snape wouldn't treat > with the utmost suspicion? Doesn't seem likely. > Marianne Perhaps Sirius and James had a "stage whisper" type conversation that they let Snape hear "accidently on purpose" so he would go and investigate. I cannot remember the exact quote from the book, but Sirius mentioned something about setting Snape up because they knew he was "too nosey for his own good" (paraphrasing). Then, of course, James decided it was wrong and stopped Snape. Lynnette, who thinks Snape is a good guy, even if he is not a nice person! From s_karmol at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 01:41:45 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:41:45 -0000 Subject: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: <002d01c398ff$0f047a60$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > > > From: Azeem Jiva > > > > Hi everyone, > I hope this gets through, everytime I try to post my messages never > show up. AHh well, I've been thinking what if book 7 ends this way: > > > Harry Potter and Voldemort are fighting, both are tired and weak > almost ready to collapse. They are in the death chamber in the MOM. > Voldemort decides to try one last bit of trickery and takes over > Harry's body. Harry though has figured out how to resist, so rather > than controlling Harry, Voldemort is now trapped in his body, as they > both fight for control. Then Harry in a self sacrificing move, walks > through the Arch way, effectively killing both. > > What does everyone think? > > > > Joj: Sounds good, except.... can Harry and V fight beyond the veil and then Harry get spit back through? Harry has to live!!! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Stephanie here: I think it's going to end where it started.. It's the perfect way to complete the story. Think about it, if we had just finished book 4, we would never even think that a vail or possession could possibly be a part of the story. I think JK is going to reintroduce us to the places and setting that have only barely been mentined. I think that the The Potter's home (I can't remember the name, sorry)was hardly mentioned but such a huge event occured there. Harry should defeat Voldemort...as karma for doing evil in the first place. Wouldn't in be crazy if after V was defeated everything becomes what it would have been if Voldemort had never existed. Just a thought. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 23 01:45:51 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:45:51 -0000 Subject: Lily and James not Aurors (Was - Could Harry really be an Auror?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83367 --> I wrote: > >>Neither of Harry's parents were old enough to be fully-fledged > Aurors>> > > To which Salit replied: > > We don't know that, do we?> > "Kirstini" wrote: > 'Fraid so. Check out the Lexicon at http://www.hp- > lexicon.org/james.html. James, Lily et al were born in 1960. By 1981, > they would have been 21 - possibly a few of them still 20 - and if > full Aurors then only just graduated. And to have escaped Voldemort > three times in that small period between graduation and Halloween? > Unless Auror training includes a massive practical element (ie, out > there, fighting on the field), or was speeded up during the war, I > imagine that they were working against Voldemort in completely > different ways, to give them the practical experience of having > escaped him three times between leaving school and Sybil making her > prediction. They had done all this escaping before the prophecy, not > as a result of it. He must have been after them for some other > reason - and why pursue Aurors-in-training so personally? Why not > just get a minion to do it? Also remember that the 20-year old Lily > was heavily pregnant during what would have been her final, and > presumably most intensive year of Auror training (asuming that they > follow Hogwarts academic years). Not quite "too young" - my emphasis > was misleading, sorry - to be Aurors, but very nearly, and too young > to have any significance within that career path. > Dumbledor may recruit Aurors, but it strikes me that training Aurors > is the Ministry's way of policing Dark activity, not his. > That "meddling" = spying seems more likely to me. Somehow. > Kirstini Thwo thoughts on this: 1--One thing I think that the whole "born to those who have thrice defied him" may not necessarily mean Lily and James but "of those" in a sense of other ancestors. Just an example, say, James Pottter's grandparent(s) defied Volde once, then his parent(s) did it for the second time and then finally James/and/ or/Lily did for the third time. There are several ways to permutate this if you buy it, and I am merely just giveing a theorhetical *example*--not a theory. Anyway, so, by this, it may be possible that James and Lily did not necessarily have to have time to defy Volde three times all by themselves. 2--Next thing, and this seems to support theory that James, especially, was not an auror. In a chat, ( link--> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-aol-chat.htm ) It is asked: "Q:What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive?" JKR answers: "Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later. " My guess is that an Auror is a job that does pay well. (I tend to think of it as less of a cop and more of a specialist/gov agent thing.) Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 23 01:53:09 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:53:09 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote In response to the Where Were the Weasleys thread: > In the end, though, we will never know where they were, what they > were doing, or why, unless JKR tells us. But until she does, there > is no reason to suppose a Flint or an inconsistency is to be found in > their absense, and ample room is available for relatively baseless > speculation. > > > Richard Me: Richard-- the entire point of this list *is* for our own continual speculations and just because you find a specualtion without merit for questioning, does not mean it is "baseless". In fact, a *anything* is possible unless canon can prove it untrue. In my opinion, picking up on small details and asking why about them and then pulling, pulling, pulling that thread is exactly how we can flush out red herrings and conjure up larger, more complex theories. Sorry, maybe I am just overreacting, but when I read your post, I thought you were dismissing it out of hand and then it sounded like you were criticizing the thread for existing in the first place. Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 23 02:01:42 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:01:42 -0000 Subject: prophecy - defy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: > If this has been discussed before could someone direct me to the > right posts, I searched the archives but couldn't find anything. > Thanks. > > I was thinking about the prophecy (again) and suddenly the word defy > stood out. I assume the prophecy is talking about Lily, James and > Voldemort. But this leads to some problems imo. > > To defy someone doesn't one need to be in contact/know someone > personally? English is not my first language, but I wouldn't use > the word defy in context with someone I don't know personally (at > least as it is used here `defied him'). If James and Lily > were the > ones who defied Voldemort wouldn't that mean they had to know him > personally and pretty well too? And if so how/where did they get to > know him and what reason did they have to know him? And to defy him > three times, wouldn't that mean they had a lot of contact? > > My Oxford dictionary defines `defy' as: > > 1) openly resist or refuse to obey > To not obey someone wouldn't that mean they had reason/were > expected to obey but didn't do it? What reason would they have to > obey him in the first place? Or how would they get into a position > where they were expected to obey? > > 2) challenge to do or prove something > How would they get into the position to challenge Voldemort, that > implies to me that they actively though him out. I don't think > this is the meaning of `defy' used in the prophecy. > > > Also I always understood it that the defying was done with an action > (like refusing to do something) and not a fight/duel. > > Any comment? Did I understand the meaning of the word `defy' > wrong? > > sachmet96 I agree to a large extent. I think that "Defy" is likely (in my mind, anyway) to mean that one refused to give/divulge/die/cooperate with some wish or plot of Volde's. It could be foiling one of Volde's plans (that would be defiant by challenging), escaping capture/torture/death that was ordered to be carried out by Volde or to be done by Volde himself, or even refusing to cooperate and give in to Volde's demands (Think Longbottoms' tortures). There are tons of other 'could be' scenarios, but I do think the loosest, most liberal interpretation of the word, is best and the most immediate interpretation--likely a red herring. Arya From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 22:05:13 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to become a ghost Message-ID: <20031022220513.67662.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83370 22October2003 Phoenixwriter wrote: "...Why do ghosts exist? In order to get a chance which they didn't get when they were alive: to learn to love somebody and be loved in return." Granny responds: Take a look at the very touching conversation between Nearly Headless Nick and Harry, OotP, Chapter 38( Bloomsbury First Edition, pp758-59): In paraphrase, Nick tells Harry:"He (Sirius) will not come back....He will have gone on. I was afraid of death, I chose to remain behind. ...I am neither here nor there, I know nothing of the secrets of death...I chose my feeble imitation of life instead. I believe learned wizards study the matter in the Department of Mysteries. " IMHO, Nick is not only trying to give a hurting lad a little comfort and some insight into his wisdom, he is also giving us a further clue to the nature and purpose of the Department of Mysteries. Granny Goodwitch --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 22:06:19 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Convention,Clues,and Cats Message-ID: <20031022220619.71632.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83371 22 Oct 2003 Mandy wrote: Interesting. I had thought the abundance of cats in the saga was the same as the abundance of Redheads...that they are the two things that are commonly associated with being a witch. Also a cat is one of the animals familiars (along with Owls, Rats and Frogs) students are allowed to bring to Hogwarts. What are the uses of these 'pets'? GrannyGoodwitch responds: Yes, I have to agree that redheads are in abundance in the saga, but by and large they are associated with one family, the Weasleys. The other animals seem to be more "isolated", as Scabbers Ron's rat and Trevor, Neville's frog. (Where did I see the post that theorized that Trevor was an animagnus?) As for the owls, they are quite "general", all over the place and swooping into the dining room every morning. Some are private pets and some are the property of the school. In traditional witchcraft, a familiar was a witches channel of communication to the spirit world. But, in the WW of Harry, cats seem to be over-represented among Squibs and Muggle-Borns. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? GrannyGoodwitch --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Wed Oct 22 23:06:54 2003 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:06:54 -0000 Subject: Psychoanalysis of CoS (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83372 This is quite long, sorry ! I have thought for some time about writing this post and was finally convin= ced by the back-page of my edition of OoP (see end of the post). I first want to menti= on that I am not a professional psychologist nor even a student in this academic fiel= d, so many members might very well poke holes in what follows, I had fun anyway. I als= o want to apologize for the english mistakes, english is not my first language. My point is that a major theme of CoS is sexuality, more precisely the anxi= ous feelings children are experiencing when they first encounter sexuality, bef= ore being mature enough. Here follows some hints, some obvious some rather subtle. Al= l references below are from the english edition of CoS. Among the most obvious signs are all connected to Gilderoy Lockhart. Both M= olly Weasley and Hermione are depicted as seduced by Lockhart, but in a slightly= puerile way (witch is normal for Hermione but is emphasized by the fact Molly react= s the same way). Both blushes when confronted to this fact (Ch.3 p.32 for instanc= e "Mum fancies him"), both try to rationalize their reaction ("he knows its househ= old pests all right", Ch.6 p.80 "look at all the amazing thing he's done"). In fact, in t= he whole HP cycle, Hermione has never been so wrong about someone. The Lockhart engrossment culminates in Ch.13, where Hermione actually sleeps with the completely uninteresting get-well card from Lockhart. Considering that she'= s twelve at the time, this one of the clearest way JKR could evoke sexual situation = without being flamed. Parallel to the Lockhart/Hermione couple, there is a Harry/Ginny one. I wil= l not go into details there because in my opinion they satisfy the exact same symbol= ic function : immature fantasy. Then comes the "Percy situation." Ch.3 p.28 "Percy has been acting very odd= ly this summer [...]. He has been [...] spending a load of time shut up in his room= ... I mean, there's only so many times you can polish a prefect badge." That I think is= the most blatant allusion to masturbation JKR could allow herself in a book intended= to 9-13 year-old children. Further, Ch.16 p.212 "Well, er, if you must know, Ginny,= er, walked in on me the other day when I was - well, never mind - the point is , she s= aw me doing something and I, um, I asked her not to mention it to anybody." It ha= s already been pointed out on this list (by Dave iirc) that adult readers are here in= clined to suppose that Ginny has indeed caught Percy masturbating. To end the part on= Percy, remember that in fact he tries to hide that is going out with Penelope. His= attitude is clearly not mature, something coherent with the whole theme. If Percy is the symbol of the immature boy sexuality, Moaning Myrtle is his= female counterpart. First of all, she seems to be doomed for ever to live in this = particularly horrible moment in the life of girl we french call "?ge ingrat" (ungratefu= l age literally, I don't know how it translates). She lives in a toilet, a place children te= nd to associate with sexuality (for obvious reasons), she fancies Harry (even Ron is capabl= e of noticing this) and invites him to "share [her] toilet Ch.17 p.240." She is = extremely mean to Hermione during the polyjuice incident (but we will comeback to thi= s), something that could be jealousy. Last but not least, I have always been ra= ther suspicious to the death of Myrtle. Let me quote (Ch.16 p.221) "it was dread= ful, she said with relish[...]. I remember it so well. I'd hidden because [snip] was= teasing me. [...] I heard somebody come in. They said something funny. Anyway what real= ly got me was that it was a boy speaking.[...]. I just remember seeing a pair of b= ig yellow eyes. My whole body sort of seized up and then I was floating away ... She = looked dreamily at Harry." Now I don't know how you interpret this, but it does so= und like either the coming of the first menstruation or (and it is even more perturb= ing) the first sexual experience : she's alone, a boy comes in, something funny happ= ens, something that "really got [her]", her whole body sort of "seized up", all = in all it was dreadful but she tells it with relish and it makes her look at Harry "dream= ily". Not to mention it was a big snake that took her and the last thing she remembers i= s "a pair of big yellow eyes." Not surprisingly, the next time Harry and Myrtle meet,= Harry is naked. Until now, we have seen rather obvious instances. What follows is more spec= ulative. First of all, there is the very perturbing polyjuice event. Let us look at = it : Hermione - a 12-year-old girl - enters a bathroom to transform herself. Something goes= unpredicted so she refuses to come out (under much mockery from Moaning Myr= tle). Her two boy friends are puzzled. We finally discover she has become furry. = Restated like this, the situation sounds completely obvious. Add to this the fact th= at Harry recalls this event in Occlumency three years afterward as a very embarrassi= ng thought. This scene ties perfectly with the theme of puzzlement and angst i= n front of sexuality. Then comes the scene in the chamber of secrets, and the discussion between = Tom and Harry. As it has already been pointed out, Tom gloats over an unconscious Ginny as= if he had raped her Ch.17 p.228 and following "it's very boring, having to listen= to the silly little troubles of an eleven-year-old girl [...] Ginny simply loved me [...= ] I have always been able to charm the people I need [...] I made Ginny [...] come down her= e to wait [...] She struggled and cried and became very boring." This is a 17-year-ol= d boy speaking about a shy 11-year-old girl lying at his feet at the moment. It i= s also quite interesting that Mr.Weasley is very critical of her when he learns the stor= y : "Haven't I taught you anything ?" Ch.18 p.242 like maybe to keep away from mysterious = young adults that she sees in private ? I would like to end this discussion with a comment on the title. Once one s= tarts to read CoS following this theme, it appears that it is absolutely brilliant. = What is, for a normal 12-year-old the Chamber of Secrets ? And what secrets are to be foun= d in a chamber if not sexuality ? One last, I would like to answer in advance two likely counter-arguments. F= irst, I am not saying this is the only theme of CoS, just one of the main, of cours= e many other reading strategy are possible. Second, doesn't this rely a bit to muc= h on dubious psychology ? Well, as I said, it is OoP that convinced me. On the b= ack-page of my edition there is a picture of JKR in front of a bookshelves. Now, if = it were me, I would insist on appearing in front of books I actually like considering the= fact that million of people will see there. Among the books I can recognize is one fr= om Joyce, one from Jane Austen, one from Adrian Mole, a book on the Metropolitan muse= um and one from Freud. So I assumed that she has at least an interest in psych= ology. Hope you found it interested. I might write something about PoA one day too= . All the best, Olivier PS : For references on the approach I used, I recommend a critical reading = of Uses of Enchantment by Bruno Bettelheim. From pjcousins at btinternet.com Thu Oct 23 01:36:16 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:36:16 -0000 Subject: The VEIL Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83373 Before I outline my thoughts on the veil in the department of mysteries may I just say how pleased I am to have joined this group. The number of professionals, English Language and Literature teachers, writers, critics, who regularly contribute is really appreciated. I studied language and literature to OWL level in 1961 then did sciences to NEWT level :( Your analyses and theories are often so well written that I now keep my dictionary/thesaurus next to the computer. Although keen on crosswords I soon forget the definition of new words. Recent HP4GU words that I have had to look up :- exegesis, explanation or critical interpretation of a text. misanthrope, a person who distrusts other people. hyperbole, a deliberate exaggeration. (not baseball super-league). trope, a word or expression used in a figurative sense. trope was totally new to me, at first I thought it was a typo to describe Lord of the Rings. The VEIL It is described as hanging from a stone arch and seems to be only 2 dimensional. This raises 2 questions. 1. How does Sirius disappear if only 2 dimensional ? 2. Where are voices coming from ? A further crucial question is where does the idea come from that the veil is actually the border between life and death? Luna and maybe Lupin seeded this idea in Harry's mind but I do not think it is stated as fact in the book. 1. The veil may be simply a part of ventilation system (Department of Mysteries is deep underground) 2. It may be part of joint ventilation system with Gringotts vaults. 3. The voices Harry and Luna heard are Arthur, Molly, and Bill Weasley. Bill works at Gringotts and the Weasleys are in the Gringott tunnel area preparing for Sirius' arrival (following Dumbledore's plan as postulated by the T-BAY experts). Harry even calls out "Ron" at one point thinking he hears his voice from the veil. Any canon on whether Arthur or Bill sound like Ron? This idea answers S & R Ranch, post 83184, who wanted to know where Mr and Mrs Weasley were during MoM rescue.Also a response by Richard in post 83357. 4. What could Fudge as head of MoM do with a secret entrance to Gringotts underground passages ? Maybe kidnap/kill unwary goblins. The Quibbler stated 'Cornelius "Goblin Crusher" Fudge has ambitions to sieze control of goblin gold supplies.' 5. If the lifts (elevators) stop working perhaps a sign appears on the arch "Emergency Exit". I have most faith in idea 3 above. This may mean that Sirius is still alive but I must stress that I am ambivalent (have I used that correctly) about his state of health. Harry believes that Sirius died and his attitude and actions at the MoM and in the future require him to continue to believe Sirius dead until Voldemort is defeated. Most, if not all, postees seem to agree that Sirius is truly dead, but purely from the book, the reader cannot be certain. The certainty that Sirius is dead comes from a JKR interview does it not? She cried when she 'killed' him. But could this emotion be not from the death of character Sirius but because of the effect the apparent death was to have on Harry. Remember Dumbledore has already put Harry through 10 years of misery with the Dursleys so another 2 years (only we know it's 2 years, not DD etc ) for Harry believing Sirius is dead for the good of the PLAN is acceptable to DD but, IMHO, worse when Harry learns the truth than if Sirius has really died. It is 2.30am and I have rambled too much. Phil. Voldemort - the self made wizard. He should have used better materials From oiboyz at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 02:29:05 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:29:05 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: <005101c3975e$1f6d90a0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83374 "Mary Jo Neyer" wrote: > I have a suggestion as to why DD has not allowed Snape to teach DADA. Perhaps it is because he cannot be replaced as Potions Master and for some reason, as yet to be revealed, it is vital for the survival of DD's "army" to have mastered certain potions. We know that Snape is very skilled with potions, because only he is able to make the potion for Lupin. DD is able to find others who can teach DADA, even if they all haven't been as effective as one might want, but none can equal Snape for his expertise in potions. DADA is more glamorous, but perhaps Potions is more essential. oiboyz: That's an interesting theory. And it's true that Snape, though hated by most of his students, is an effective teacher. ("Well, the class seem fairly advanced for their level," says Umbridge.) I've been wondering why Potions is a necessary class for an Auror to take at NEWT level. Assuming that's not just JKR's plot device for keeping Harry in Snape's class, maybe there *are* some Dark-Magic-fighting potions that are going to be vital for Harry and friends to know. I think it would be fun if someone got poisoned in Book 7 and Harry saved them by finding a bezoar-- nice flashback to his first meeting with Snape, eh? No doubt it's been discussed on this list before (I'm new here), but I've always assumed that the reason Dumbledore won't give Snape the DADA job is that it would be like giving a drink to a recovering alcoholic. Snape grew up immersed in the Dark Arts (or so it seems from Sirius' description of him) and has fallen under the dark side's sway once already. The DADA job would require him to revisit Dark Magic, and he might be completely sucked back in. Best to keep him away from temptation. -oiboyz From artcase at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 03:01:36 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:01:36 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint: Fireplace in the common rooms Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83375 How/why do students receive mail by owls? If their parents could use the floo network to communicate (much like a telephone/transporter) why would they resort to the much slower, less efficient method of owl post? AND for that matter, how do the teachers keep the student from leaving the school/parents from coming into the school via floo? My only guess is that it is restricted in some manner, which makes Sirus's useage ("broke into a wizarding house...")highly unlikely. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but what is stopping LV from using a wizarding house (in the same manner) and dropping in on Harry some late night? Comments? From dfran at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 23 03:08:07 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:08:07 -0000 Subject: How to become a ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixwriter" > wrote: > > Sorry if this has already been discussed. > > > > I have been thinking about it and wondering why some people become > > ghosts and others do not. > > > snip > > > > Why do ghosts exist? In order to get a chance which they didn't get > > when they were alive: to learn to love somebody and be loved in > > return. > > > > That's it. > > > > PW > > JKR has said that it's the people who aren't the happiest in life > that become ghosts, so not being loved is obviously an important > factor, but I'm not sure that love has everything to do with it. > Nearly Headless Nick (in the last chapter of OotP, but I'm not quite > sure where, because I don't have my book with me at school) seems to > imply that becoming a ghost is a choice that people make when they > die, and it depends on the kind of person that you are whether you > will make the choice to "cross over" or stay behind. **snip88 Myrtle, on the other hand, wanted nothing more than > to make Olive Hornby sorry she made fun of Myrtle's glasses, and she clearly succeded.) It also seems like the choice is irreversible: > that once you are a ghost you can't ever "cross over". ***snip** > Meri I agree with you both on most points aside from once a choice is made it "seems to be irreversable". This does not fit with JKR's characters--Dumbledore's always giving second chances (Snape, Hagrid, even Harry for that matter). I think that the ghosts always have a choice to continue on through the veil. All the ghosts have their reasons--Myrtle/revenge, Nick/fear...Peeves/creating chaos--seeking attention he probably never got in the living world. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Harry somehow played a role in getting Nick to "cross over", and this playing a role in the ending plot to the story. (Gee who will be the next Griffyndor ghost?(DD, Ron, Percy, Luna, Neville?!?)..Sheesh..given all the additional questions perhaps it will be Myrtle that will finally "crossover". Even if Harry dies somewhere in the series he may become a ghost. (highly doubtful but a possiblity) If the arch is indicative of the "arches" present in Judeo/Christian/Wiccan beliefs, then ghosts are here because they have something left to learn. DeeDee From dfran at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 23 03:24:38 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:24:38 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it In-Reply-To: <20031022113813.58830.qmail@web40012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Paula Gaon wrote: > > 22Oct03 > > June wrote: > "Well I don't know -why is everyone waiting so eagerly for his report > in OOP Chapter 4: ... > [Molly greets Harry and tells him he'll have to wait for dinner...] > "She turned to the gang of wizards behind him and whispered > urgently "He's just arrived, the meeting's started."... > There - that's Snape they are talking about. Now he may not be > exactly ready for the cocktail party circuit yet, but that, imho is > a guy who can network and is working with others - well." > > Paula now: > > OK, point well taken. But still, Snape is in control, ie everyone's waiting for HIM. ***snip*** I Notice that Mrs Weasley says she has to hurry, speaks in whispers and shuttles Harry off to join Ron and Hermione. The atmosphere is one of tension--the usual atmosphere when Snape is present. And don't forget, there was always antipathy between Snape and Sirius. Snape can network and work with others when the need arises> Paula "Griff" Gaon > DeeDee here: No complicated answer here.. Snape gets away with alot because he is a leguimens. Just because he bruised and battered Harry delving into his most painful/angry memories doesn't mean that he doesn't have more subtle ways of dealing with those around him. Hence how long has he got around Voldemort. Probably one of the main reasons why he's not DADA teacher is that he is not balanced...he simply focuses too much on the negative side of things. If there was one class where balance was needed it would be here. If all the DADA instructors were in a duel, in the end it would be Snape and Lupin...will year six put someone else worthy? Will DD put someone from the "order" in the position? Arthur? Molly? Tonks? Shakelbolt? The REAL Moody? I can't wait! I think Snape may actually make the position by book seven. It's just too much like DD to have Snape deal with the reminder of his horrible past mistakes before finally granting him the position. I don't believe he'll make it in book six due to the fact that the occlumency lessons went by the wayside. DeeDee From artcase at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 03:28:27 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:28:27 -0000 Subject: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Azeem Jiva" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I hope this gets through, everytime I try to post my messages > never > > show up. AHh well, I've been thinking what if book 7 ends this way: (...snip...) > > What does everyone think? > > > Richard here: > > Won't happen, as it is a little too ... too ... simple, and misses > with regard to the first prophecy, which says that "either" must die, > and "either" means "a or b, but not a AND b." So, one dies, not > both, and I can't see Voldemort being left alive at the end of the > story. > > > Richard Art here: This coincides with another thread that discusses how Harry survived the AK curse. I don't believe the AK was aimed at him, but rather at his mother, OR it was aimed at him and an "ancient magic" "sealed by her own blood" deflected the curse to her. My reasoning is thus: The AK on Harry doesn't show up under the Prior Incantum event in the graveyard, rather, his mother's figure emerges. The rune-like symbol on Harry's head conjures a vision of his mother creating a protection circle in runes around his crib. LV fires the shot as his mother completes the circle. The spell glances off Harry's head (imprinting the last rune, NOT Eihwaz [defence]as everyone seems to believe, but Sowelu, the rune of Wholeness - read as: keeping Harry in one piece AND merging LV's own power to his) and impacts on his mother, killing her. The force of his mother's counter- spell sends shock waves through the general area eminating from the crib and the house is blown apart. Getting on to how the end will be... Harry or a friend of Harry's (drawing upon the power that LV know not, friendship/love...my guess is Hermione)duplicates Lily's spell. In an act of self-sacrifice they both, or just Harry (he creates it to protect his friends, not himself) seal the circle and LV is blown apart by his own AK, or worse, spell. Another possible scenario could be Harry giving up his magic powers through a similar spell to protect his friend, this binds LV's powers with it and being magic-less, LV destroys himself. Just theories... Art. From dfran at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 23 03:33:06 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:33:06 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S & R Ranch" wrote: > I have been wondering where were Mr & Mrs Weasley when Sirius, Lupin > Tonks, Moody & the others came to Harry & the others rescue at the > MOM? > Her "wonderful clock" (as DD put it)would have shown Mrs W. that 2 of > her children were in mortal danger! So why would the parents not come > to the aid of their own children? I simply figured that they were still residing at OOP headquarters and left the clock at the burrow so when sign of trouble came...1. Snape only mentioned Harry initially. 2. Molly went to check the clock and family(George and Fred if still residing there) at the burrow. and 3. Arthur still not fully healed from previous attack stayed at head quarters. DeeDee From dfran at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 23 03:47:50 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:47:50 -0000 Subject: Is Neville's frog Trevor and animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "splnyc" wrote: > I can't find anywhere this topic has been covered already, but I > heard that there is a new theory that Neville's frog Trevor could > actually be Dolores Umbridge? I am re-reading book 5 right now and > want to check it out again for myself, but could this be true? > Dolores Umbridge is always described as frog-like and I can't find > any scenes where Trevor and Dolores are at the same place at the > same time. Could Dolores be Neville's other grandmother (his > maternal grandmother, Alice's mother) and perhaps be keeping an eye > on Neville as his pet frog is SS, CS, PA and GF? Then in OOP we > don't see Trevor and Umbridge at the same time because Umbridge is > at Hogwarts and is keeping an eye on Neville in her human form? It > could even explain why Umbridge wants to deny so much that Voldemort > is not back - she is still too upset from her daughter's death and > wants to stay in denial that he could come back. She does not want > to believe it could be true. This could all be crazy but I was > curious if anyone out there has heard this or had similar thoughts. DeeDee here: It may well be that Neville's toad is an animagus. But most likely, IMHO, the prime candidate would be his "Uncle Algie" or even his Grandma... Hence, this is why trevor is always "missing"...(lost)..uncle Algie exploring....Grandma thinking to herself "okay he's here now under DD's and Hogwarts protection." Perhaps Neville knows this now and this is why in book five he has his "cactus/plant" and is more caring about that than being particularly worried about Trevor. Neville seldom if ever, "tells", perhaps his family, like many posters here are just as concerned for his protection. Because whether or not Harry/Neville is the ONE...If we, as readers suddenly jump to the conclusion that the ONE is Neville the we may assume Volemort will too. Is this why Snape is so angry with Neville all the time...because he steered Voldemort the Potter way (given past history) rather than Neville's way?!??? And I don't care what anyone says, I'm still leaning towards Lilly being a wayward decendant of Slytherin...hence the "get out of the way silly girl"...and why Volde went after Harry first---mark as an equal thing---Voldemort went after the "most equal" first. Neville needs protection...he still can be "marked as an equal".. DeeDee From dfran at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 23 03:50:52 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:50:52 -0000 Subject: Book 1: Learning to Fly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie" wrote: > I don't know if this was every brought up, but a friend of mine > brought this up and I don't remember reading about it (on this site). > Is there a possibility that Neville's broom was hexed when he was > learning to fly? There is some real similarity with the way > Neville's broom reacted and the way Harry broom reacted during the Q > game. > Sounds interesting to me, but I don't know how it could be. > What do you all think? > Thanks! > Stephanie There is a strong possibility..please view my post: #83380 This and given the prophecy. It could happen. DeeDee From dfran at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 23 03:57:17 2003 From: dfran at sbcglobal.net (deedeee88) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:57:17 -0000 Subject: Convention,Clues,andCats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Granny Goodwitch > After reading the notices of the upcoming HP convention and the > planned birthday party for Harry on 31July, I realized that our hero > is a Leo, a cat! This has started me to think again about all the > references to cats and cat clues in canon: > > 1) Harry's a Leo. > 2) He grows up on Privet Drive next door to Mrs Figg, a squib and cat > lover and all of her cats. > 3) One of the earliest scenes in the series is Professor > McGonnagall's appearance in her cat form (Book 1) on Privet Drive. > 4) Harry is sorted into Gryffindor. More importantly the Sorting Hat > wants to put him in Slytherin, but he insists on Gryffindor, the lion. > 5) Hermione is accidently turned into a cat by the Ployjuice Potion > (Book 2). Remember a recent posting on the list stated that this was > possibly the scene that JKR wouldn't allow to be edited out? > 6) Crookshanks' joining the HRH trio, and obvious affection for > Harry. > 7) Physical similarities between Crookshanks and Mundungus, who was > given the task to watch over Harry(Book5) > 8) Harry's vision of Hermione covered in fur during the Occumency > lesson, yes, this was strange > Is that all, now? The first thing that comes to mind is that cats > kill snakes. They're sorely missing in Voldy's crowd. Also, > throughout canon, cats have an affinity for squibs (Figg and Filch) > and Muggle-borns (Hermione, and Harry). McGonnagall is the obvious > exception, but some think that maybe she's Muggle-born. My theory is > that cats will somehow play an important role in the final war > against the DE's. What this could be can't imagine. So come on, > Dears, let's have a little discussion and TBAY. > > Now me: > Interesting. I had thought the abundance of cats in the saga was the > same as the abundance of Redheads...that they are the two things that > are commonly associated with being a witch. > > Also a cat is one of the animals familiars (along with Owls, Rats and > Frogs) students are allowed to bring to Hogwarts. What are the uses > of these 'pets'? > > Just a thought. > Mandy All good points... But I must say that if Harry is to become an animagus...he'll probably be something of "mixed heratige"....lion and bird....perhaps like buckbeak... DeeDeee From artcase at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 04:00:11 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:00:11 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: <001401c398e5$67063a60$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > > "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" wrote: > >You missed two other examples: the pair caught by Snape in the bushes > > during Yule Ball, and Patil's horror when she realised that Crouch/Moody > > can see through clothes ("Nice socks, Potter!"). > > > > But I don't think, that Hogwarts is "awfully innocent". For 15 years > > old, sex in count-legs-and-divide-by-two sense is quite remote. I mean, > > for females much more important is all that romantic nonsense: hugging, > > holding hands, sharing emotions etc. As for boys, most of them at this > > age are still not sure what the heck is happening with them. > > Arya: > This a sterostype where girls are good and boys are horny at best, if that > is, if they manage to figure out what they want. I think I might offer my own > testimonial that girls, even at the ages of 15 thru 17, do indeed want and think > about sex and *gasp* are doing it. Divide the legs, and way more than that. > And I do in fact speak of my own personal experience when I was in high > school between 1990-1994. > > Taryn: > I'll speak up as someone currently 16, female, and in high school and agree. Girls are just as hormonal as guys, but it does seem more common for girls to be able to hide it a bit better. And maybe have a bit more self-restraint. :P However, most of the girls I know /do/ love the fuzzily romantic gestures, too. > > ---------- > Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Art: Ancient Druidic practices placed male and female candidates in separate schools. This was done prior to the influence of Roman/Judeo/Xtian culture and was done due to the following reasoning. Males were imbued with power, release of said power (read into it what you will) lessens their power, whereas, women are polar opposites. I'm suprised there is so much similarity in Ying/Yang theology in ancient Druid/Celtic theology, but the world may not have been so large before the Italian conquests of 150 BC and the theories could have co-mingled. Getting back to how this is applied to life at Hogwarts (and possibly, why so many of the instructors are male and single) is the "Merlin" school of thought (remember, Merlin was the epitomy of Druidic wizard, ergo, celibate and singular.) Note: I implied both as separate entities. Druids do not congregate in their training, prefering a single mentor/student relationship until the apprentice reached an age of maturity where they embark on a "journeyman" phase where they learn other tasks and the workings of the world around them. By the time they are old enough to take on apprentices (if they chose) they have lived apart (singular) from the workings of a religious organization. It reminds me of the Star Wars jedi in a way... (hmmm... I AM a geek...) To wrap this up, perhaps the skirting of the sex issue is a bow to the roots of wizarding, OR just perhaps it is because ... it is a series of books written for children. Art. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Thu Oct 23 04:06:31 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:06:31 -0000 Subject: Lily and James not Aurors (Was - Could Harry really be an Auror?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83384 Arya wrote: > Thwo thoughts on this: > 1--One thing I think that the whole "born to those who have thrice defied him" > may not necessarily mean Lily and James but "of those" in a sense of other > ancestors. Just an example, say, James Pottter's grandparent(s) defied Volde > once, then his parent(s) did it for the second time and then finally James/and/ > or/Lily did for the third time. There are several ways to permutate this if you > buy it, and I am merely just giveing a theorhetical *example*--not a theory. > Anyway, so, by this, it may be possible that James and Lily did not necessarily > have to have time to defy Volde three times all by themselves. Very interesting theory. Still another loophole in the prophecy. Since you mention it, "those" may not even specifically refer to family, but rather some other group to which prophecy-baby's parents belonged. Possibly the Order of the Phoenix, although that would probably still limit the candidates to Harry and Neville, since as far as we know no one else Harry's age had parents in the Order. > My guess is that an Auror is a job that does pay well. (I tend to think of it as > less of a cop and more of a specialist/gov agent thing.) I agree that the auror position is more akin to an FBI/Secret Service agent than to a police officer, but those aren't jobs you take for the money. Not that I think James was an auror, but I don't think the money comment would contradict the idea. -Corinth From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 05:12:24 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 05:12:24 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Prank: (WAS when did the prank take place?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83385 There are some interesting thoughts about Snape and the Prank, so I tried to pull all of the quotes out to analyze and then throw in my two knuts. Here are the results: (all quotes from PoA, US Hb ed.) Description of the tunnel (pp336-337): "Harry went next; he crawled forward, headfirst, and slid down an earthy slope to the bottom of a very low tunnel. They moved as fast as they could, bent almost double; ahead of them, Crookshanks's tail bobbed in and out of view. On and on went the passage; it felt at least as long as the one to Honeydukes ... And then the tunnel began to rise; moments later it twisted, and Crookshanks had gone. Instead, Harry could see a patch of dim light through a small opening." Animagi (p354): "Now, my three friends could hardly fail to notice that I disappeared once a month. But of course, they like you, Hermione, worked out the truth.... It took them the best part of three years to work out how to do it....Peter needed all the help he could get from James and Sirius. Finally, in our fifth year, they managed it." The Prank (p357): "Severus was very interested in where I went every month. ....we ? er ? didn't like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field ... anyway Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be ? er ? amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf ? but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life ... Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel." Thoughts: 1. "...the best part of three years to work out how to do it." This sounds to me like it was just under three years for James and Sirius to learn to transform. It took until the fifth year before they "managed" to teach it to Peter. If they discovered Remus' secret about half-way through the first year ("like Hermione" it wouldn't have taken them long), James and Sirius would have been able to join Remus by the end of their fourth year. (It's easy to imagine them slipping out and leaving Peter behind.) 2. Remus distinctly says that Sirius told Snape about the knot on the Whomping Willow. I can picture Sirius taunting Snape (a la Draco) about knowing how to get past it, annoying him to the point that Snape would think less about who gave him the information than how to find out Remus' secret. 3. James "pulled him back, at great risk to his life..." This sounds like Snape was between James and Remus. What was "great" about the risk? If Remus attacked, Snape would have been the first victim. If James *could* transform, he would have been less at risk, and would have had his antlers to help defend himself. Was James at great risk because he couldn't transform yet? Or because there wasn't enough room to transform in the tunnel? 4. "...if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf..." But "Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel." If Snape saw Remus as a werewolf, as he must have or he wouldn't know the secret, then Remus must have transformed in the tunnel. Madam Pomfrey left it awfully late if he transformed within minutes after she took him to the Willow. What if they had left the castle ten minutes later?... 5. Several people made reference to Snape calling Sirius a murderer at age 16. I remember that too, but can't remember where in the books it is. But presuming (very carefully not *assuming* ) it is correct, the Prank could have occurred in their 5th year. Depending on what month Sirius' birthday is in, he was possibly 16 before the end of the year. 6. Recent posters have criticized Remus for not doing anything to stop James and Sirius in the penseive scene. The penseive scene occurred right after O.W.L.s, which take place at the end of the school year. If the Prank occurred shortly before the O.W.L.s, it makes sense that Remus would keep a low profile when around Snape so he wouldn't provoke Snape into saying something he shouldn't. If Lily's intervention prompted Snape's "mudblood" comment, what would he have said if Remus had tried to intervene? 7. Unrelated to the Prank - if Snape was jealous of James' talent at Quidditch, does that mean Snape played Quidditch too? Ravenclaw Bookworm From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 23 04:45:05 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:45:05 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: References: <002d01c398ff$0f047a60$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031023173425.02234ec0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83386 At 01:41 23/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Stephanie here: > >I think it's going to end where it started.. >It's the perfect way to complete the story. Think about it, if we >had just finished book 4, we would never even think that a vail or >possession could possibly be a part of the story. I think JK is >going to reintroduce us to the places and setting that have only >barely been mentined. I think that the The Potter's home (I can't >remember the name, sorry)was hardly mentioned but such a huge event >occured there. Harry should defeat Voldemort...as karma for doing >evil in the first place. >Wouldn't in be crazy if after V was defeated everything becomes what >it would have been if Voldemort had never existed. >Just a thought. Me (Tanya) Yes, that could work. So many options that could happen. However, I am puzzled. As if LV never existed? Do you mean that would involve all the stuff he has done, people killed returning as he had never existed as well? I do understand to a point that JKR said dead was dead, but there seem to be exceptions throughout the book. So, the idea back to Godrics Hollow. Not even sure if Harry knows where that is, certainly I have not read anything that gives any clues. How do you imagine that battle could go? Tanya From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 23 04:55:03 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:55:03 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031023174651.02236140@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83387 At 03:28 23/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Art wrote > >Getting on to how the end will be... Harry or a friend of Harry's >(drawing upon the power that LV know not, friendship/love...my guess >is Hermione)duplicates Lily's spell. In an act of self-sacrifice they >both, or just Harry (he creates it to protect his friends, not >himself) seal the circle and LV is blown apart by his own AK, or >worse, spell. > >Another possible scenario could be Harry giving up his magic powers >through a similar spell to protect his friend, this binds LV's powers >with it and being magic-less, LV destroys himself. > >Just theories... Tanya here. This post is great, but snipped the bit I want to specifically comment on. Hermione would probably be the one to figure that out, she is, so far, the brains behind theories, ie the polyjuice session. However, in the books she is studying Runes, and I think she is the only one of the trio doing that. So, when needed that knowledge should become very useful. Harry giving up his powers, and LV losing them as well. Hmmm, very interesting. In one post it was asked what LV feared worse than death. I came up with the idea of him losing his powers and living as a muggle, so glad that someone else came along that idea too. Tanya From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 05:58:18 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 05:58:18 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint: Fireplace in the common rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "artcase" wrote: > How/why do students receive mail by owls? > > ... parents could use the floo network to communicate ... why > would they resort to the much slower... method of owl post? > > ... how do the teachers keep the student from leaving the > school/parents from coming ... via floo? > > My ... guess ... it is restricted ..., which makes Sirus's useage > ... highly unlikely. > > ... what is stopping LV from using a wizarding house ... and > dropping in on Harry some late night? > > Comments? bboy_mn: Tell me, if you we a young student in a wizard boarding school would you want to sit at the fireplace having conversations with you undoubtedly uncool parents right there in front of all your friends? I think not. I suspect that long ago students stopped answering embarassing Floo calls from their parent to the point where attempting Floo calls became pointless. In addition, we don't know that other students haven't used the fire for communication. Our window into Hogwarts life is limited by Harry's perspective. Up until the current book, we had no indication that there was a Gobstones Club or a Charms Club. That would imply that there are many other clubs as well, but Harry has no interest in them, so we don't hear about them. Although I confess myself baffled by why Ron isn't a member of the Hogwarts Wizards Chess Club. I keep waiting for that chess theme to come back into the story. Also, I would think that at any boarding school students do not have free and unlimited access to telephones(muggle equivalent of Floo Fire Talking). Although, I'm sure in a muggle boarding school there are telephones everywhere, just like at a wizards school there are fireplaces everywhere, student use is very restricted, otherwise the phone system would always be busy. Of course today, all students have Cell Phones which I'm sure they conviniently don't answer when they see the call is originating from Mommy. Let's us also note that only Floo Fire Talking can be acomplished. Hermione has repeatedly said that access into and out of Hogwarts is blocked by protective spells. We have never seen any human apparate or Floo Travel into or out of Hogwarts. We have, however, seen Floo travel within the boundaries of Hogwarts grounds (Lupin fireplace traveled to Snape's office to examine the Marauder's Map). So students, parents, and Dark Wizards can not 'pop' in and out as they please. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 06:04:03 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:04:03 -0000 Subject: Correction: Fireplace in the common rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83389 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > ...edited... We have never seen any human apparate orFloo Travel into or out of Hogwarts. ...edited... bboy_mn: I will correct myself and save others the trouble. Yes, in the current book we have seen Portkey and Floo Travel into Dumbledore's office, but I explain that away by saying the Dumbledore controls the protective spells around Hogwart. That mean he also controls the exceptions to those protective spells. Certainly, Dumbledore can by-pass the protection when he needs to. Just thought I would add that. bboy_mn From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 06:50:43 2003 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:50:43 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83390 > oiboyz: > No doubt it's been discussed on this list before (I'm new here), but > I've always assumed that the reason Dumbledore won't give Snape the > DADA job is that it would be like giving a drink to a recovering > alcoholic. Snape grew up immersed in the Dark Arts (or so it seems > from Sirius' description of him) and has fallen under the dark side's > sway once already. The DADA job would require him to revisit Dark > Magic, and he might be completely sucked back in. Best to keep him > away from temptation. I agree it's more on the line like this, because JKR gave a hint at her latest interview that the reason Dumbledore won't give Snape's DADA job was because it would bring out the worst of him. However the question that really matters to me yet no one seems to have raised: Why does Snape want the DADA job in the first place? In OOTP we're confirmed that the rumor that he does want the job badly; he has been persistantly re-applying the position over the years. Most of us seems to wonder "why the job was not offered to him" more often than "why does he want it?" We have Sirius's words that the little 11 years old Snape knew more Dark Arts than most 7th year. What was the reason and motivation behind his acquired knowledge of Dark Arts? For now let's assume Snape indeed is interested in Dark Arts in general out of pure fascination of its destructive power. But why "Defense against" Dark Arts? Is it merely a matter of "well at least DADA is somewhat Dark arts related, better than anything" mentality? Or he felt like the Dark Arts area is his expertise that he felt he would be more useful/helpful in a subject that's related to his real interest? Or could it be that DADA could be a perfect golden opportunity for him to perform more nasty stuffs like the Unforgiven Curses on others legally? Or, there're more significance to Dumbledore assigning Snape the DADA job: it would be a sign of gaining complete Dumbledore's approval and recognition of Snape's redemption. -D. From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Thu Oct 23 07:57:16 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:57:16 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Convention,Clues,andCats References: Message-ID: <010001c3993b$4753f2b0$71984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 83391 Harry and Ron did not even seem to be too worried > about the Hermione-as-a-cat incident at the time it occurred. Why > would Harry have buried that memory in his subconscious? > > Elle Perhaps it was buried at that particular point in time because he was with Snape. I guess one could reasonably assume that Snape would know *why* hermione was err, furry and then would be able to deduce exactly who *did* steal his boomslang skin. I imagine he would not be very nice (less nice than usual, even!) to the person responsible for the stealing. Since Harry is friends with Hermione, it would be another thing he really *could* blame Harry for, since he would presume Harry knew about the thievery. Just a thought... Nox ~ Reality is for people who lack imagination. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 22 20:32:12 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:32:12 -0000 Subject: Filch and semantics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83392 bookraptor11: > >I'm wondering if it was Dumbledore who abolished the chaining of > >students when he became Headmaster, or even successfully campaigned > >for their elimination while he was just a teacher. Filch said in COS > >that he missed the screaming; we don't know how long he's been > >caretaker. Perhaps he was never allowed to use this punishment and is > >just nostalgic for his own student days, sick little puppy. Chiara: > The verb "miss" can mean two things: > > - I was there at the time the "screaming" happened, I liked it and I feel it > should still be there nowadays but it isn't. > > - I am too young to have witnessed the "screaming" so I didn't happen to > witness it. > Geoff: I think I am right that Filch's remark about mssing the screaming only occurs in the film. The comments by Filch in canon are: "'Follow me,' said Filch, lighting a lamp and leading them outside. 'I bet you'll think twice about breaking a school rule again, won't you, eh?' he continued, leering at them. 'Oh yes.... hard work and pain are the best teachers if you ask me.... It's a pity they let the old punishments die out.... hang you by your wrists from the ceiling for a few days, I've got the chains still in my office, keep 'em well oiled in case they're ever needed...'" I interpret this as being that Filch was there when they were used; he seems to be speaking from experience. Geoff From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 23 08:19:21 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:19:21 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possible Flint: Fireplace in the common rooms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031023211500.00a8e270@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83393 At 05:58 23/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >bboy_mn wrote > >Let's us also note that only Floo Fire Talking can be acomplished. >Hermione has repeatedly said that access into and out of Hogwarts is >blocked by protective spells. We have never seen any human apparate or >Floo Travel into or out of Hogwarts. We have, however, seen Floo >travel within the boundaries of Hogwarts grounds (Lupin fireplace >traveled to Snape's office to examine the Marauder's Map). So >students, parents, and Dark Wizards can not 'pop' in and out as they >please. Tanya here I have a question for that. How on earth did Sirus manage to get to the common room fire from Grimmald place to talk to Harry, and after the end of lessons with Snape, Harry was able to reverse the deal from Umbridge's office. I can understand Sirius getting special clearance, but for it to work in reverse has me puzzled. Tanya From wry1352000 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 06:47:24 2003 From: wry1352000 at yahoo.com (wry1352000) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:47:24 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint: Fireplace in the common rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "artcase" wrote: > How/why do students receive mail by owls? > > If their parents could use the floo network to communicate (much like > a telephone/transporter) why would they resort to the much slower, > less efficient method of owl post? > > AND for that matter, how do the teachers keep the student from > leaving the school/parents from coming into the school via floo? > > My only guess is that it is restricted in some manner, which makes > Sirus's useage ("broke into a wizarding house...")highly unlikely. > > Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but what is stopping LV > from using a wizarding house (in the same manner) and dropping in on > Harry some late night? > > Comments? Very interesting question. Maybe Hogwarts fireplaces are magically restricted in such a way that they can only be used for "head" travel, not "full body" travel? In both instances when Sirius contacts Harry via Gryffindor common room fire, only his head appears in the fire, while the rest of his body remains where he is, and the same is true of the two times Harry uses Umbridge's fire to contact Sirius. Maybe it's one more of those security features similar to the no apparate-disapparate restriction? The only case of someone actually stepping out of a Hogwarts fire so far happened when Snape summoned Lupin to his office when he wanted an explanation regarding Harry's possession of the Marauder Map, but since Lupin was himself at Hogwarts at the time, it may be a different situation, not like outside travel. At any rate, Sirius didn't try to enter the Gryffindor common room via somebody's fire in CoS when he was after Pettigrew/Scabbers, but tried to get there the usual way. Perhaps, there isn't much damage one can do to someone with one's head only, no wand. *But* still there's definitely more about these fires than meets the eye. For instance, Umbridge tried - and nearly did - catch Sirius by hand when he was talking to Harry via Gr. fire. So are there more than 2 ways of getting through the fire? If one can make one's head appear in the fire and one's hand appear there on separate occasions, can one manage to have both appear at the same time? Or maybe it's just Umbridge who seemed to give herself many additional surveilance powers who could see what was going on in various Hogwarts fires and somehow reach with her hand into one? I mean maybe "reaching into" a fire like that is at all uncommon, and it was only her position as temporary head of Hogwarts that allowed her to do it with the school's fires? Voldemort may be finding Fudge's denial policies too convenient throughout book 5 to risk revealing himself and, perhaps, he wished to hear the full prohpecy (while its record existed) before trying to attack Harry again, but it's true that if anybody could use Hogwarts fires whenever he/she wished to, it would make the no apparate/disapparate restriction totally useless. About parents communicating with students, there would be no privacy, unless they arrange a midnight talk or something, and also there's only one fire in the G. common room and so many students. But although I don't remember anything mentioned about fires in the bedrooms, I assume there should be some there too, otherwise how would all the bedrooms on both boys' and girls' side be kept warm? If it's indeed the case, then it would be easier to arrange - there are only 5 people in Harry's bedroom, for instance (we don't know about others). But maybe it's still too tedious to arrange for privacy every time, or maybe it's too expensive (in terms of floo powder use) to do on a regular basis? I hope there'll be more on the subject in books to come. Zinaida. From darryl_oneill at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 23 04:21:34 2003 From: darryl_oneill at yahoo.ca (darryl_oneill) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:21:34 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83395 Has there been a mistaken assumption that James is in Gryffindor. Before book 5, I would have agreed that James was in Gryffindor. Now I think that he is in Slytherin for a number of reasons. Also by arguments presented on the Lexicon and here, Lupin/Sirius would be in Slytherin as well. Steve Vander Ark says that James is in Gryffindor (says so in OP). Does someone have a chapter/page in US/UK version for this? I have read OP a few times and I did not notice it. If there is a quote, then the rest of what I have to say is not valid. The lexicon lists the source for James in Gryffindor as Sch 2. (see the Gryffindor page on the Lexicon) In the Sch 2 interview there are two questions that are important. 1) Q.Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? A.Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). 2) Q. What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different? A.) James was Chaser. Note that J.K. puts Lily in Gryffindor but she does not confirm nor deny that James was in Gryffindor. The person asking the question says that James is in Gryffindor. J.K. only answers that he was a Chaser. If James is in Gryffindor, J.K. would not comment. But if James is not in Gryffindor, J.K. may not comment if this is important to a future book. Before reading book 5, there was a warm comfortable feeling that the good guys were all in Gryffindor and the bad guys were in Slytherin. After reading book 5, am beginning to wonder. Sirius say in OP Chap 14 "'Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters" 1) It does not make sense that most of the major players all seem to come from Gryffindor. 2) The behavior of MWPP especially in book 5 seems much more like Draco than anyone in Gryffindor. 3) Hagrid said that every bad wizard was from Slytherin at a time when he thought that Sirius was an evil wizard coupled with comments in the Lexicon on why James, Sirius, Lupin were in the same house. Sirius would be a likely candidate for Slytherin given the existing family trends to be in the same house. Black was willing to send Snape to be bitten by Lupin as a teenager. This does not seem like a Gryffindor trait. 4) Harry might have been sorted into Gryffindor or Slytherin. This makes more sense with one parent in each. 5) There have been 5 books and J.K. has been very silent about what houses they were in. 6) James seems to be from a rich pureblood family. 7) Lily and James refer to each other by their last names. If they were both in Gryffindor together for 5 years then why so distant. Everyone in Gryffindor always call each other by their first names. Comments Darryl From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 23 08:37:29 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:37:29 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and James not Aurors (Was - Could Harry really be an Auror?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031023213402.00ab3c60@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83396 At 21:51 22/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Kirstini > >Dumbledor may recruit Aurors, but it strikes me that training Aurors >is the Ministry's way of policing Dark activity, not his. >That "meddling" = spying seems more likely to me. Somehow. >Kirstini Tanya wrote Yipee, someone said it. I had been thinking for a while on that phrase, 'meddling fools'. It just didn't strike me as what a DE would say about an Auror (police). Still, they had to be doing something to get into the order. Tanya From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 04:00:51 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:00:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the animagus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83397 All right, it's a strange theory (and believe me, I don't usually come up with strange theories). It sort of happened while rereading Book 1 looking for ANY clues as to what Rowling has up her sleeve. (On pg 211, US version) Ron and Harry are looking into the Mirror of Erised, and Ron sees himself as Quidditch Captain and Head Boy. Not long after, a cat passes by, and they *assume* that it's Mrs. Norris. "After what seemed an age, she turned and left." Surely, if it were Mrs. Norris, she would have immediately cried out for Filch - but the cat didn't. It only stood there, and eventually left. The next time Harry visits the Mirror (pg 213 US version), Dumbledore is there. "And it showed your friend Ron as head boy." "How did you know - " "I don't need a cloak to become invisible," So, obviously, Dumbledore was in the room with Ron and Harry that night (or at least outside listening). How else would he know what Ron saw? At the end of PoA, Hermione mentioned that she had checked the list for registered animagi for the PAST CENTURY. We all know DD is more than a hundred years old, so he could have registered before that. At the end of Book 1, when Harry and Dumbledore talk in the Hospital Wing, (pg 299, US version) it says that "Dumbledore now became very interested in a bird on the windowsill." Animagi (as we have noticed from Sirius's 'dog like' qualities) tend to show certain traits of the form of animal they become. I'd say most cats are interested in birds. In OotP (don't know which page) where Fudge and all those ministry workers are knocked out in DD's office, Dumbledore says something about not having to go into hiding when he left the school.(Could it be because a cat wouldn't have to hide from the Ministry?) He also said to Fudge that even if he WAS sent to Azkaban, he could easily break out. Let's not just say "Dumbledore's extremely powerful, he could manage it." There has to be a way for him to KNOW that he can escape. Well, as Sirius had already demonstrated, animals can easily get past the Azkaban guards... IF Dumbledore IS an animagus, wouldn't it be fitting that he taught... oh, I don't know - Transfiguration? Well, according to Tom Riddle, he did. Rowling never puts in these little tidbits for the heck of it - so I cannot honestly dismiss the idea without canon disproving it. So, is the theory really THAT nuts? "nkittyhawk97" From allura9703 at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 23 03:29:53 2003 From: allura9703 at yahoo.ca (allura9703) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:29:53 -0000 Subject: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83398 Azeem Jiva wrote: > I've been thinking what if book 7 ends this way: > > Harry Potter and Voldemort are fighting, both are tired and weak > almost ready to collapse. They are in the death chamber in the MOM. Voldemort decides to try one last bit of trickery and takes over > Harry's body. Harry though has figured out how to resist, so rather > than controlling Harry, Voldemort is now trapped in his body, as they both fight for control. Then Harry in a self sacrificing move, walks through the Arch way, effectively killing both. > > What does everyone think? >>> Hey there, It's not a bad theory except for Harry dying. Perhaps he goes through the archway but finds a way to come back, maybe through some sort of spell that anchors him to the MOM (sort of like tying a rope to his waist and having someone pull him back). I just can't see Harry dying at the end of the series. Ultimately, he will defeat Lord Voldemort and not without some losses (as we've already seen) but he won't have to sacrifice his life. Who knows? Maybe Neville will play a large role in defeating Lord Voldemort as he is the other that could have fulfilled the prophecy. Allura From ashlin519 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 03:26:49 2003 From: ashlin519 at yahoo.com (Ashley) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:26:49 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint: Fireplace in the common rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83399 artcase wrote: > How/why do students receive mail by owls? > > If their parents could use the floo network to communicate (much > like a telephone/transporter) why would they resort to the much > slower, less efficient method of owl post? > > AND for that matter, how do the teachers keep the student from > leaving the school/parents from coming into the school via floo? > > My only guess is that it is restricted in some manner, which makes > Sirus's useage ("broke into a wizarding house...")highly unlikely. > > Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but what is stopping LV > from using a wizarding house (in the same manner) and dropping in > on Harry some late night? I would think it would be a privacy issue. Sirius waited until late at night for the chance to talk to Harry alone, not many parents would encourage late night conversations on schhol nights. I also couldn't imagine parents or children wanting to hold a conversation in a place as public and noisy as the common room. As for leaving by floo, a place with as much security as Hagwarts (anti-apparition for example) probably has control over who comes and goes by floo. It's shown in book 5 that it is possible to regulate the floo network. It seems that there's a difference from actually traveling by floo and speaking through it. "Ashley" From kara_filley at inter-tel.com Wed Oct 22 22:32:16 2003 From: kara_filley at inter-tel.com (karafilley) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:32:16 -0000 Subject: Lily and James not Aurors (Was - Could Harry really be an Auror?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83400 Kirstini wrote: > >>Neither of Harry's parents were old enough to be fully-fledged > Aurors>> > To which Salit replied: > > We don't know that, do we?> Kirstini: > 'Fraid so. Check out the Lexicon at http://www.hp- > lexicon.org/james.html. James, Lily et al were born in 1960. By 1981, they would have been 21 - possibly a few of them still 20 - and > if full Aurors then only just graduated. And to have escaped Voldemort > three times in that small period between graduation and Halloween? Now I add... The info the HP Lexicon has on James and Lily's ages is pretty sketchy... "The books leave ambiguous the exact years they attended Hogwarts. JKR did state in an interview which coincided with the release of Goblet of Fire (CR) that Severus Snape was "about 35 or 36." That would place his birthdate in 1960 and his first year at Hogwarts to be 1971-72. This timeline works from that assumption. All dates for the this group might be a year off one way or the other. >From "Snape's Worst Memory" in OP, we know that Snape, Black, Lupin, Pettigrew, and Potter were all 5 in the same year. It's possible Lily got pregnant 5 months or so after completing auror training--or even 17 months. Nothing in canon gives us these dates exactly. "karafilley" From hottieerin27410 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 21:46:12 2003 From: hottieerin27410 at yahoo.com (Erin Moss) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031022214612.83882.qmail@web14811.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83401 Azeem Jiva wrote: > I've been thinking what if book 7 ends this way: > > Harry Potter and Voldemort in the death chamber in > the MOM. Voldemort decides to try one last bit of trickery > and takes over Harry's body. Harry though has figured out > how to resist, so rather than controlling Harry, Voldemort > is now trapped in his body, as they both fight for control. > Then Harry in a self sacrificing move, walks through the > archway, effectively killing both. >>> I think Harry will finally get Voldemort out and cast a spell that will knock Voldemort into the arch. Erin Moss From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 11:58:06 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:58:06 -0000 Subject: Psychoanalysis of CoS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "olivierfouquet2000" wrote: > > My point is that a major theme of CoS is sexuality, more precisely the anxious feelings children are experiencing when they first encounter sexuality, before being mature enough. Here follows some hints, some obvious some rather subtle. Laura: What a fun post! Well done, Olivier. I just wanted to add that at Nimbus thee was a rather startling presentation (I can't remember the name of the woman who gave it, I'm afraid) on this very subject. The presenter suggested that tCoS is indeed a metaphor for awakening adolescence. In addition to some of the ideas you've put forth, she talked about the symbolism of the search for Ginny. Harry has to enter a girls' bathroom, say special secret words and find the way to a hidden passageway (which is described as "an endless, slimy, dark slide" CoS 301 US). You get the idea. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 12:11:52 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:11:52 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint: Fireplace in the common rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83403 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Tell me, if you we a young student in a wizard boarding school would you want to sit at the fireplace having conversations with you > undoubtedly uncool parents right there in front of all your friends? I think not. I suspect that long ago students stopped answering embarassing Floo calls from their parent to the point where attempting Floo calls became pointless. > > In addition, we don't know that other students haven't used the fire for communication. Our window into Hogwarts life is limited by Harry's perspective. > Also, I would think that at any boarding school students do not have free and unlimited access to telephones(muggle equivalent of Floo Fire Talking). Laura: This post made me smile, as our son is a college freshman this fall and we're working out the various means of communication that are available nowadays. Between email, cell phones and instant messaging, a parent can check up on-I mean, be in touch with a child all day every day if s/he so chooses. Of course, that sort of defeats the purpose of going *away* to school, doesn't it? Back on topic, several people have suggested on this list that Hogwarts is similar to a boarding school of 20-30 years ago. I would think that kids didn't have easy or regular phone access to home (or parents to kids at school) in those days. Communication was by mail except for emergencies, I'd guess. And Harry isn't likely to get any communication from home on a regular basis anyhow, so his interest in how such communications might be accomplished would be pretty small. Besides, all kids love to get letters from home when they're at school or camp-after all, the parents can't send money or goodies in a phone call! It would be sort of unfair if kids from magical families got to talk to their parents via floo network but kids from muggle families didn't. From kelleythompson at gbronline.com Thu Oct 23 12:26:58 2003 From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:26:58 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Moving topics from one list to another (Snape in the Godric Hollow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83404 This isn't *exactly* an Admin, per se, but I wanted to comment and clarify something that Twoflower2 mentions below, and I think many list members might have conflicting ideas about this. Twoflower2 said: >> This topic has been extensively discussed both at this board and HP Movie. I snipped the part of a Movie thread message (to the Mods: it refers to the books, so don't shoot me, let me post it). >> Heh, no shooting going on here! Actually, what you've done is not only allowable and acceptable, but greatly, strongly, highly encouraged! To explain a bit to our newer members who may not be aware, HPfGU has four main groups: The "main list", this one, for discussing the books The Movie list, for discussing the movies The Announcements list, for notices of events, new groups, websites, TV specials, articles and interviews, fic updates, etc. And the OT-Chatter list, for just about anything else (This is our "off topic" group.) What Twoflower2 has done was take part of a discussion that was happening on the Movie list that actually has some very canon-based (book-based) comments and brought it over here for discussion by this group. And, might I add, she did an absolutely *flawless* job of it, too! This happens all the time, though many may not be aware of it. Discussions that begin here but start to drift into an off-topic direction get "moved" to the OT-Chatter list and continued over there. Discussions that start here and go in a Movie-based direction get moved to Movie and continued there. Discussions on OT-Chatter or Movie that end up coming back in a canon direction get brought back over here. This allows for anyone who wants to follow those discussions to do so in the appropriate group, thus making sure that anyone who *only* wants to discuss HP canon can do so here without having to skip around to find it, or delete bunches of messages that are movie or off-topic, or scroll through long digests looking for the canon discussion. Here are the links to the other groups, should anyone like to join: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPfGU-Announcements/ I hope I've explained it well enough; if anyone has any questions or comments or suggestions, we'd love to hear them! Just send to us at HPforGrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com Thanks everyone! --Kelley Elf, for the List Admin Team From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 23 12:52:51 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:52:51 -0000 Subject: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83405 > The rune-like symbol on Harry's head conjures a vision of his mother > creating a protection circle in runes around his crib. LV fires the > shot as his mother completes the circle. The spell glances off > Harry's head (imprinting the last rune, NOT Eihwaz [defence]as > everyone seems to believe, but Sowelu, the rune of Wholeness - read > as: keeping Harry in one piece AND merging LV's own power to his) and > impacts on his mother, killing her. The force of his mother's counter- > spell sends shock waves through the general area eminating from the > crib and the house is blown apart. > I think it's true that the scar on Harry's head is indicative of a rune and it quite possibly may be Sowelu (sigil) according to shape. However, what interests me about Eihwaz (defense) run is that it literally means 'Yew tree' as in Voldies wand wood, that it is used as a rune for protection and defense plus the other associations with life/death, travelling between 'worlds' (connection to the veil?) Just some random thoughts Erica From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 13:13:09 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:13:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83406 "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > All right, it's a strange theory Not that strange. Many here suppose that DD is an animagus. What we are missing is the form he takes. > (On pg 211, US version) Ron and Harry are looking into the Mirror > of Erised, and Ron sees himself as Quidditch Captain and Head Boy. > Not long after, a cat passes by, and they *assume* that it's Mrs. > Norris. Interesting ! (snip) > At the end of PoA, Hermione mentioned that she had checked the list > for registered animagi for the PAST CENTURY. We all know DD is more > than a hundred years old, so he could have registered before that. Huh-huh ! I've always thought that those 2 bits (the past century bit, and DD's age) have to come in big somewhere. That could be it. > At the end of Book 1, when Harry and Dumbledore talk in the > Hospital Wing, (pg 299, US version) it says that "Dumbledore now > became very interested in a bird on the windowsill." Animagi (as we > have noticed from Sirius's 'dog like' qualities) tend to show > certain traits of the form of animal they become. I'd say most cats > are interested in birds. But DD owns a phoenix... Is he a masochist, or is Fawkes unaware of the danger ? The hiding and Azkaban points are good ones too. > IF Dumbledore IS an animagus, wouldn't it be fitting that he > taught... oh, I don't know - Transfiguration? Well, according to > Tom Riddle, he did. Which brings me to the next question : why would DD and McGonagall turn into the very same animal ? If that theory is right, I can't believe it's just a coincidence. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 13:21:11 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:21:11 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83407 "doliesl" wrote: > However the question that really matters to me yet no one seems to > have raised: Why does Snape want the DADA job in the first place? (snip) > Or could it be that DADA could be a perfect golden opportunity for > him to perform more nasty stuffs like the Unforgiven Curses on > others legally? Could be. Maybe the DADA teacher is allowed to do things in Hogwarts that others aren't, like using the Unforgivable Curses (have we ever seen anyone but Crouch!Moody and Umbridge use them ?). That would mean that DD doesn't trust Snape *that* much after all. Del From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 13:23:17 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) Message-ID: <20031023132317.29000.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83408 23Oct03 "marigoldevans" wrote: ... I think JKR and canon are both hinting at what he will become... a teacher at Hogwarts, specifically the DADA teacher.... at Hogwarts....Here's where the glee part comes in. JKR has said that she would end after seven books, when Harry left Hogwarts. But, what if he didn't leave? Imagine the fun she could have with Harry on the faculty now having to deal with Snape as a colleague... Paula now: Wonderful! I read the passages the same way when reading OotP for the second time. Glad someone else is seeing things this way, even had a dream about it. Hope we're not just lulling ourselves out of PPD, but nothing would make me happier than Harry having a chance to rub Snape's nose in the dirt. I could absolutely laugh out loud, sing, dance, and clap just thinking about it. Paula "Griff" Gaon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 13:29:03 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:29:03 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83409 "S & R Ranch" wrote: > I have been wondering where were Mr & Mrs Weasley when Sirius, > Lupin, Tonks, Moody & the others came to Harry & the others rescue > at the MOM? > Her "wonderful clock" (as DD put it)would have shown Mrs W. that 2 > of her children were in mortal danger! So why would the parents not > come to the aid of their own children? Interesting question. I have another one for you : why wasn't Percy among the Ministry people that arrived after the fight ? Fudge was there, and quite a few other people, but Percy, who until now seemed to follow Fudge like his shadow, is suddenly missing. He's not even there to talk to the Daily Prophet, Fudge has to do it himself. Coupled with the facts that neither his parents nor his brother Bill came to the kids' rescue, I say your question is a valid and interesting one. Del From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 13:58:25 2003 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:58:25 -0000 Subject: Filch and semantics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > I made a quick skim through SS and CoS. Firstly, I thought the > reference to Filch missing the screaming came from SS, not CoS. > Second, I thought that was a line from the movie that didn't make an > appearance in the book. I looked for the line in the books but > didn't catch it. If anyone could point me to a page number, it > would be greatly appreciated. A Goldfeesh: Well, there's a good reason you didn't find Filch's line. You were right on it being from TMNMNBN2 and not written by JKR. A Goldfeesh From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 13:59:12 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:59:12 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83411 "darryl_oneill" wrote: > Has there been a mistaken assumption that James is in Gryffindor. That could very well be. > Steve Vander Ark says that James is in Gryffindor (says so in OP). > Does someone have a chapter/page in US/UK version for this? I > have read OP a few times and I did not notice it. If there is > a quote, then the rest of what I have to say is not valid. Sorry, I don't have my book with me, but I think the only hint is Harry's thought upon seeing Ron under a tree, that he looks exactly like another Gryffindor, which we all agree means James. BUT this is only Harry's opinion. I remember being surprised the first time I read that sentence, because I was wondering how ever Harry knew that James was in Gryffindor. It simply doesn't say so anywhere. It says that Harry thinks so, but it doesn't say why. Harry could be wrong. > 1) It does not make sense that most of the major players all seem > to come from Gryffindor. I agree. > 2) The behavior of MWPP especially in book 5 seems much more like > Draco than anyone in Gryffindor. I heartily agree ! Harry's not terribly nice with Draco, but at least he doesn't go out of his way to provoke him. Draco does it, though. Just like James and Sirius did it with Severus. Slytherin way of life. > 3) Hagrid said that every bad wizard was from Slytherin at a time > when he thought that Sirius was an evil wizard That one has always bothered me !! Sirius is supposed to be the ultimate traitor, he's supposed to be the one and only reason James and Lily were killed and Harry ended up as an orphan. So surely Hagrid could not have forgotten about him when he talked to Harry about the different Houses ? > Sirius would be a likely candidate for Slytherin given the existing > family trends to be in the same house. Not necessarily. The Patil twins are in 2 different Houses. > 4) Harry might have been sorted into Gryffindor or Slytherin. This > makes more sense with one parent in each. Mm. Maybe. > 5) There have been 5 books and J.K. has been very silent about what > houses they were in. Now THAT is the MAIN clue as far as I'm concerned. If James had been in Gryffindor, someone would have told Harry, at least to say that he was in Gryffindor like his parents. > 6) James seems to be from a rich pureblood family. ?? Do you mean to say that all rich pureblood family end up in Slytherin ? I know purebloodedness was a choice trait for Slytherin the Founder, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all purebloods end up in Slytherin House. Isn't it Ernie McMillan or I don't remember who, that says he's a pureblood ? And he's in Hufflepuff. > 7) Lily and James refer to each other by their last names. If they > were both in Gryffindor together for 5 years then why so distant. > Everyone in Gryffindor always call each other by their first names. Ah-ah. Good one ! Dean and Seamus are Dean and Seamus, but Draco is Malfoy (and Crabbe and Goyle). My biggest problem with that theory is this : if James was in Slytherin, don't you think Malfoy would know it, and would already have told Harry a long time ago, just to hurt him ? I just can't find a reasonable reason for Draco *not* to do that. Del From lawtrainer at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 13:59:38 2003 From: lawtrainer at yahoo.com (Jana Fisher) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:59:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > All right, it's a strange theory It may be strange but I like it! > IF Dumbledore IS an animagus, wouldn't it be fitting that he > taught... oh, I don't know - Transfiguration? Well, according to Tom > Riddle, he did. There have been many posts on this group about Dumbledore becoming the wasp that Harry saw in ?Divination? I posted a while back stating possibly Dumbledore is a powerful enough wizard that he can become many forms: I think we have been introduced to a wasp, a bee, and now by your theory, a cat. Thus far there is no canon stating you can only morph into one animagi form, however I read that if you choose to become an animagi you cannot pick the form you take. But one of the most central themes with the character of DD is how powerful he is. And as you stated above, the only teaching we are aware that DD did was Transfiguration. The suspense for book 6 is overwhelming, with all the excellent theories here. Jana From lawtrainer at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 14:11:19 2003 From: lawtrainer at yahoo.com (Jana Fisher) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:11:19 -0000 Subject: T-BAY: DRIBBLEing Ashore (was Harry's Eyes & Dragon's Blood) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: "DRIBBLE stands for Dragon's Resistance In Blood > Bestows Life-saving Effects: GrannyBat - I like this theory. There is too much mentioned about Dragons and their various parts (blood, skin, eyes) to be a coincidence. And it makes sense that if they guard the Sorcerer's Stone with multiple forms of protection, why would they not do this with someone who has the ability to vanquish the greatest dark wizard in a century. Dragon's blood, the rune scar, the mysterious way H can block/duck/avoid curses. I am in the process of seeing whether I can Owl Order one of those preservers. From s_karmol at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 14:26:58 2003 From: s_karmol at yahoo.com (Stephanie) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:26:58 -0000 Subject: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031023174651.02236140@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83414 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > At 03:28 23/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: > > >Art wrote > > > >Getting on to how the end will be... Harry or a friend of Harry's > >(drawing upon the power that LV know not, friendship/love...my guess > >is Hermione)duplicates Lily's spell. In an act of self-sacrifice they > >both, or just Harry (he creates it to protect his friends, not > >himself) seal the circle and LV is blown apart by his own AK, or > >worse, spell. > > > >Another possible scenario could be Harry giving up his magic powers > >through a similar spell to protect his friend, this binds LV's powers > >with it and being magic-less, LV destroys himself. > > > >Just theories... > > > Tanya here. > > This post is great, but snipped the bit I want to specifically comment on. > Hermione would probably be the one to figure that out, she is, so far, the > brains behind theories, ie the polyjuice session. However, in the books > she is studying Runes, and I think she is the only one of the trio doing > that. > So, when needed that knowledge should become very useful. > > Harry giving up his powers, and LV losing them as well. Hmmm, very > interesting. > In one post it was asked what LV feared worse than death. I came up with the > idea of him losing his powers and living as a muggle, so glad that someone > else came along that idea too. > > Tanya Stephanie here: I love that idea!! I've only been thinking about places hardly mentioned, but it's true that Hermione has been studying a lot that she's hasn't been able to use yet. Maybe it's not Hermione who risks her life, but Ginny. Tanya: My thought of everything becoming what is should have been...my thought was with Vold.'s death is also the death of all his evil...as if everything was a dream. Imagine Harry defeating Voldemort...then walking outside the room only to find his mother and father reading the Daily Prophet at the table, waiting for Sirius to show up for dinner. A great twist ending. Sounds right in my head, but might not in this post. From eberte at vaeye.com Thu Oct 23 14:39:20 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:39:20 -0000 Subject: Furry!Hermione (was Re: Convention,Clues,andCats) In-Reply-To: <010001c3993b$4753f2b0$71984cca@Monteith> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83415 Nox wrote (regarding the Harry's vision of Furry!Hermione during occlumency with Snape): > Perhaps it was buried at that particular point in time because he was with > Snape. I guess one could reasonably assume that Snape would know *why* > hermione was err, furry and then would be able to deduce exactly who *did* > steal his boomslang skin. I imagine he would not be very nice (less nice > than usual, even!) to the person responsible for the stealing. Since Harry > is friends with Hermione, it would be another thing he really *could* blame > Harry for, since he would presume Harry knew about the thievery. > I suppose so (she says *grudgingly*). Matt said the same thing; however, I feel compelled to point out that Polyjuice Potion does not usually change the user into a *cat*, so it is a stretch to assume that Snape would immediately connect an image of Hermione-as-a-Cat with the stolen boomslang skin. A more revealing memory snippet would have been Harry and/or Ron changing into Crabbe and/or Goyle (*definite* Polyjuice Potion action.) But perhaps there was something particularly upsetting about that memory because it involved *Hermione*.... Elle (veering *perilously* close to the SHIPPING channels) From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 23 14:57:35 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:57:35 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83416 darryl_oneill wrote: > > 2) The behavior of MWPP especially in book 5 seems much more like > > Draco than anyone in Gryffindor. Del wrote: > I heartily agree ! Harry's not terribly nice with Draco, but at least > he doesn't go out of his way to provoke him. Draco does it, though. > Just like James and Sirius did it with Severus. Slytherin way of life. sachmet96: Not neseccarily only Slytherin. It depends on the point of view. The Weasley twins and other Gryffindors have shown that Gryffindors can also be extremely provoking. I am thinking about what they did with/to Umbridge. As much as I don't like Umbridge and as much as they thought they were in the right, from her point of view (and for example Filch's) it was nothing but taunting. darryl_oneill and dell: > > 3) Hagrid said that every bad wizard was from Slytherin at a time > > when he thought that Sirius was an evil wizard > > That one has always bothered me !! Sirius is supposed to be the > ultimate traitor, he's supposed to be the one and only reason James > and Lily were killed and Harry ended up as an orphan. So surely > Hagrid could not have forgotten about him when he talked to Harry > about the different Houses ? > > > Sirius would be a likely candidate for Slytherin given the existing > > family trends to be in the same house. > > Not necessarily. The Patil twins are in 2 different Houses. > > > 4) Harry might have been sorted into Gryffindor or Slytherin. This > > makes more sense with one parent in each. > > Mm. Maybe. > > > 5) There have been 5 books and J.K. has been very silent about what > > houses they were in. > > Now THAT is the MAIN clue as far as I'm concerned. If James had been > in Gryffindor, someone would have told Harry, at least to say that he > was in Gryffindor like his parents. > > > 6) James seems to be from a rich pureblood family. > > ?? Do you mean to say that all rich pureblood family end up in > Slytherin ? I know purebloodedness was a choice trait for Slytherin > the Founder, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all purebloods > end up in Slytherin House. Isn't it Ernie McMillan or I don't > remember who, that says he's a pureblood ? And he's in Hufflepuff. > > > 7) Lily and James refer to each other by their last names. If they > > were both in Gryffindor together for 5 years then why so distant. > > Everyone in Gryffindor always call each other by their first names. > > Ah-ah. Good one ! Dean and Seamus are Dean and Seamus, but Draco is > Malfoy (and Crabbe and Goyle). > > My biggest problem with that theory is this : if James was in > Slytherin, don't you think Malfoy would know it, and would already > have told Harry a long time ago, just to hurt him ? I just can't find > a reasonable reason for Draco *not* to do that. sachmet96 The points above are very good and I agree but there is one thing that I think might speak against the Slytherin theory. When Harry was in the pensieve he saw James and Sirius and they surely wore their school uniforms. Wouldn't Harry have noticed (and reacted) if they were form Slytherin? He might not have said anything if they were form any other house, but Slytherin would surely have been a shock for him? I also think it unlikely that all major players are from Gryffindor. But I do believe that James at least might have been in Gryffindor. He acts like a bully but putting him in Slytherin would be too stereotypical, so I hope JKR puts him in Gryffindor (or antoher house) to avoid such stereotypes. And it could also explain why he ended up a supposedly 'decent' guy after he left school - the influence of his more 'Gryffindor-like' housemates (of course this again is a stereotype). And we don't know if he was a good guy at all it's kind of suspicious that one only hears good things about him, like everyone is trying to make see Harry a certain picture of his father but they never get into detail (like not telling his house, when his parents married, how they met or stuff like the names of his grandparents or what happened to them). From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Oct 23 15:12:14 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:12:14 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83417 "doliesl" wrote: > However the question that really matters to me yet no one seems to > have raised: Why does Snape want the DADA job in the first place? In > OOTP we're confirmed that the rumor that he does want the job badly; > he has been persistantly re-applying the position over the years. > Most of us seems to wonder "why the job was not offered to him" more > often than "why does he want it?" Now me (Wendy): I don't agree that we now know that Snape does "want the job badly." What we learn in OoP is that Snape has applied for the job (and been turned down) every year. At least, this is what Umbridge is told, and Snape confirms this when she asks him. A couple of things about this: First, I'm not sure I really believe this is true, as we've had some contradiction. In CoS, Hagrid says that the reason Lockhart was hired was because no one else wanted the job: "He was the only man for the job . . . 'An I mean the *on'y* one. Gettin' very difficult ter find anyone fer the Dark Arts job. People aren't too keen ter take it on, see. They're startin' ter think it's jinxed." (CoS, p 88, UK hardcover). Of course, Hagrid has been wrong about things before (like his comment that *all* dark wizards came from Slytherin House). But still, why say so emphatically that Lockhart was the *only* candidate if Snape really had applied, but was somehow unacceptable? The second thing that occurs to me is that perhaps Snape really *has* applied for the position every year, but doesn't actually want the job. It could be something he and Dumbledore agreed upon to create the appearance of tension between the two of them. Snape applies every year, Dumbledore turns him down, of *course* Snape can't stand that barmy old codger. It would give Snape an excuse to appear angry or disloyal to Dumbledore should the need arise. Of course it is possible that he really does want the position, but for some reason I never got that feeling from him. Judging by his opening speech in the Potions Master chapter of SS/PS, he really *really* loves potions. Why would a man who speaks so poetically about his field want to teach another subject? I also think that it's likely Snape will end up teaching DADA, in the last book. I just hope this doesn't mean she's going to kill him off like she's done with some of the others. :-) Wendy From oiboyz at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 14:51:51 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:51:51 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83418 "doliesl" wrote: > Or, there're more significance > to Dumbledore assigning Snape the DADA job: it would be a sign of > gaining complete Dumbledore's approval and recognition of Snape's > redemption. Exactly! I would love it if Snape would do something to redeem himself in Book 6-- perhaps something incredibly unselfish to help a person he's always hated (Harry would be an excellent candidate)-- and that led to Dumbledore finally giving him the job in Book 7. It's great that JKR has been keeping this thread about the DADA job going since the beginning of the series-- it'll have such impact when DD finally trusts Snape with the job. I say "when" because it's too delicious not to happen, and JKR's been building up to it for so long. Although she could throw us all for a loop and *never* give him the job. As for the question about why Snape even wants the job, I tend to think it's what dolies1 said... mainly that DADA is what Snape is really an expert at. We've never seen Snape duel, have we, except very briefly in the Shack in PoA? Another thing I want to see in Book 6 is a big ol' fight with Death Eaters that involves Snape. I imagine that he'd be a *very* powerful duelist; he could throw around curses like Cruciatus with a lot more power than nice guys like Harry can muster. I'd like to see Snape save Harry's skin with a really fearsome display of nasty curses, to make the kids realize just what Snape's capable of, and how much self-control he's really been showing all these years by confining himself to giving detentions and taking points from Gryffindor. :) oiboyz, one of those Snape fans From davidseppi at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 15:45:04 2003 From: davidseppi at yahoo.com (davidseppi) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:45:04 -0000 Subject: Spells and Spell Creation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83419 Where do spells originate in the Potterverse? At the end of GOF, at LV's "rebirthing" party, he refers to ancient magic of his own creation. Again, at St. Mungos in OOTP, Harry sees a picture on the wall of Someone "can't remember the name," Creator of the Bowel Reversal spell. Is it safe to assume that *all* spells were invented? Harry refers to LV as having the Avada Cadavra curse. Does this mean LV invented the curse? Also, is it safe to assume that really powerful wizards do not need to use incantations, are incantations like training wheels? During duel between LV and Dumbledore at the end of OOTP, nary an incantation was spoken, yet the power of the spells caused Harry's hair to stand on end. Also, a death eater produces a spell at Hermione by simply slashing in the air producing a purplish fire. We later hear that the spell would have been much more powerful if the incantation had been spoken. Perhaps the wizard was not powerful enough to properly use an incantationless spell. From FinduilasMyDarkdream at lycos.de Thu Oct 23 12:14:09 2003 From: FinduilasMyDarkdream at lycos.de (finduilasmydarkdreamer) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:14:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > All right, it's a strange theory (and believe me, I don't usually > come up with strange theories). It sort of happened while rereading > Book 1 looking for ANY clues as to what Rowling has up her sleeve. > > (On pg 211, US version) Ron and Harry are looking into the Mirror of > Erised, and Ron sees himself as Quidditch Captain and Head Boy. Not > long after, a cat passes by, and they *assume* that it's Mrs. Norris. > > "After what seemed an age, she turned and left." > > Surely, if it were Mrs. Norris, she would have immediately cried out > for Filch - but the cat didn't. It only stood there, and eventually > left. > The next time Harry visits the Mirror (pg 213 US version), > Dumbledore is there. > > "And it showed your friend Ron as head boy." > "How did you know - " > "I don't need a cloak to become invisible," > > So, obviously, Dumbledore was in the room with Ron and Harry that > night (or at least outside listening). How else would he know what > Ron saw? SnapesRaven: Yes, that's a good question! Until no I thought Dumbledore just knows all this because his magical powers allow him to receive information from things and not only from living creatures. I have been satisfied with the Mrs Norris explanation because I was so thrilled to see what happens when Ron looks into the mirror. But even if this should be only a game of thoughts, it is very interesting to do so. > At the end of PoA, Hermione mentioned that she had checked the list > for registered animagi for the PAST CENTURY. We all know DD is more > than a hundred years old, so he could have registered before that. > > At the end of Book 1, when Harry and Dumbledore talk in the Hospital > Wing, (pg 299, US version) it says that "Dumbledore now became very > interested in a bird on the windowsill." Animagi (as we have noticed > from Sirius's 'dog like' qualities) tend to show certain traits of > the form of animal they become. I'd say most cats are interested in > birds. SnapesRaven: This is a hint worthwhile pursuing, I think. Rita Skeeter might confirm this theory because her whole behaviour is that of a greedy little insect. On the other hand, I think it's quite difficult to tell whether JKR mentioned the bird as a means of characterizing Dumbledore's patient, rather silent nature or if this was really a hint on his possible animagus self. > In OotP (don't know which page) where Fudge and all those ministry > workers are knocked out in DD's office, Dumbledore says something > about not having to go into hiding when he left the school.(Could it > be because a cat wouldn't have to hide from the Ministry?) He also > said to Fudge that even if he WAS sent to Azkaban, he could easily > break out. Let's not just say "Dumbledore's extremely powerful, he > could manage it." There has to be a way for him to KNOW that he can > escape. Well, as Sirius had already demonstrated, animals can easily > get past the Azkaban guards... > > IF Dumbledore IS an animagus, wouldn't it be fitting that he > taught... oh, I don't know - Transfiguration? Well, according to Tom > Riddle, he did. > > Rowling never puts in these little tidbits for the heck of it SnapesRaven: That's definitely a point! > - so I cannot honestly dismiss the idea without canon disproving it. > > So, is the theory really THAT nuts? > > > "nkittyhawk97" I don't think that's nuts at all... I haven't pondered all this before but now that I read it it sounds almost natural to me. : ) SnapesRaven From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 16:11:02 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031023161102.81595.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83421 > Now me (Wendy): > > I don't agree that we now know that Snape does "want > the job badly." SNIP > I also think that it's likely Snape will end up > teaching DADA, in > the last book. I just hope this doesn't mean she's > going to kill him > off like she's done with some of the others. I agree with you on the fact Snape does not want the DADA job. However, I have been getting the inklings that Snape will get the job in Harry's seventh year and end up teaching him more than what's in the class. I have also thought Snape will be a teacher like Fake!Moody was; harsh, yet 'cool'. However, I do think at that time, the Ministry will not be paying attention to Hogearts and Snape will teach what is needed to survive. After book seven, I beleive Snape will be alive _because_ the post is jinxed. (Maybe it's fanfic interference) But I think Snape was surprised at being alive after the first war and holds similar views for the second. I have no cannon, but just a feeling from the way he treats Harry. [This also goes in with my belief Snape was at GH the night the Potters were killed. He expected to give his life for James, but somehow failed.] After the war, I beleive he will return to Potions or retire altogether, but be alive. Chris's 2 cents PS Does anyone know of any of the names of the year right before Harry's? I can't think of any off the top of my head. ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From grannybat at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 16:38:23 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:38:23 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83422 Shaun Hately wrote: >>> I watch American TV shows supposedly about teenagers... and the >>> common depiction of how young people date...seems very >>> alien to me. That's because my experiences growing up are >>> different - and I think the same is true of the kids at >>> Hogwarts. What they experience seems very realistic to me. And Gorda wrote: >>I think we may be having a cultural difference here, either between >>Britain and the US, or between those of us >>who have been to high school recently and those who, er, have not. Then Susan wrote: > Perhaps it's also a boarding vs. public school difference? ... > I taught high school...but I can tell you, there's a **whole lotta > sex goin' on** in America...even as young as ages 13 and 14. > .... perhaps there really is a difference between U.S. & U.K. mores? This is why I requested information specifically from people who experienced the British private/public school system. My own perceptions are filtered through an education in American public (taxpayer-funded, nonexclusive, general curriculum, local, day attendance) schools. My understanding of British culture is defined by 'Net contact with British friends, reading English literature, and watching British films and TV programs. It's hard to know what the true cultural norm is when your reference points are limited to Shakespeare, Masterpiece Theatre, and Benny Hill. Be that as it may--I think its quite revealing that JKR never attended a boarding school herself. (And now I can't find the post that volunteered that piece of information, so I can't quote it. Blast.) So the **conventions** of the British Boarding School as a literary genre (as opposed to the reality) are even more influential on her writing than I thought. So, then. The impression I get from People Who Have Experience With This Sort of Thing is that Hogwarts culture 'feels' right in terms of sexual mores; the only thing missing is the bragadoccio, which turns out to be a lot of hot air in most cases. I suppose that means Rowling will never give us a scene in which Snape catches Ron with a copy of Playwizard Magazine. (Centerfolds that move...nnnnno, let's not go there.) Tacky as that last line may sound--I'm really not interested in who's bedding whom, how often they're 'doing it,' and how varied their tastes may be. Really. I'm interested in what kind of social/ethical preparation Magicals give their children in regard to The Big Life Issues, and whether the apparent lack of formal instruction strays that far from the norms of British Muggle society. Sadly, it appears that silence, shame, and learning by trial-and- error is the norm on both sides of the genetic divide. Grannybat From o_caipora at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 16:46:37 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:46:37 -0000 Subject: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031021230908.0278a920@pop.bredband.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83423 The detailed extrapolation of wizarding population from the number of Hogwarts students is like unto an attempt to recreate a dinosaur based on a single vertabrae. However terrific the science applied, the results would probably benefit from starting with more data. There is lots more data on the WW: the number of workers at the Ministry of Magic, the described size of Hogsmeade "the only all- wizard town in England", the commerce and infrastructure described. However, detailed analysis will be akin to taking a plate of bouillabaisse and attempting to reconstruct the creature from which it was made. It's composed a bit of this and a bit of that. Quite tasty to eat (as Rowling is to read) but it's not uniform in provenance, taste or texture. Mikael Raaterova wrote: > Caipora quibbled about 24 000 wizards being too small a group to > remain distinct over time: Not precisely. Taking several different cultures, including ancient Athens and Romany/gypsies in present-day UK, I tried to show that 120,000 would be enough, and probably somewhat less would do given longer life span. Some smaller number may be enough. Some primitive tribes have gotten by with less, but they didn't build railroads, magic or otherwise. The sort of robust culture shown by the wizards requires some minimum number, below which it can't be sustained. The problem is often dealt with in science fiction, where given the light-speed limit a trip to another star will require a ship large enough to sustain generations of humans. How many do you need so that the ship arrives with a civilization and not primitive sustained by automatic machinery? > The Amish are another example. While > I don't know the size of the Amish population in North America, I imagine > that specific Amish communities, *each of which constitutes a stable, > distinct group in a larger society* (I don't know about "ethnic", though, > and i don't know why you included it in the first place, given that > "wizard" isn't an ethnicity), There are small groups of Amish in Paraguay, and even bookstores and other businesses that cater only to them. Don't know the numbers, though. Perhaps "ethnic" isn't the correct term. The Jews are not a distinct ethnicity either, as nothing differentiates them from other Semites of the Middle East. They fail as an analogy for wizards, though. They are neither mysterious nor secret, and are well integrated in schools, commerce, and public life. There's nothing about Jews that seems exotic to outsiders. Certainly that wasn't true hundreds of years ago, but the farther we go from the present the farther we get from our world and the world Rowling is portraying, and the less useful any analogy becomes in explaining her world to us. I like the Romany/Gypsies best as a stand-in for wizards. Not just silly similarities like fortune-telling, but a lack of integration with larger society. Even now they are closed off and live on the margins of the mainstram. But there are more of them than one would think, and some are even filthy rich (I've seen the mansion of a Romany family in Brazil that would serve for Malfoy Manor). > I think what you should have asked is how the wizarding world can maintain > itself intact within the Muggle world. The answer is: magic. The big problem there is that we can't do any field studies of magic- users. Thus, the search for a real-world analogy. > Wizards are > the only humans able to use magic, and you have to learn to use your magic > from a wizard (since the very first wizard had to teach himself magic, this > statement isn't absolutely true, but for all practical reasons it > suffices). This provides not only a very distinguishing characteristic for > our wizards in relation to Muggles, it also provides wizards with a > practical mechanism for teaching new members Wizarding culture You make it sound like the Plasterer's Union, where you had to have a father or uncle in the union to join, and there's no other way to learn the trade . . . > Furthermore, Muggles don't know wizards exist, and wizards are > happy to, and even demand to, be left alone. Sounds, again, a bit like gypsies. > I don't think it would be a lot of trouble coming up with > credible explanations for whatever the actual number is, but until > JKR discloses the population figure, I think 24 000 wizards or > something in that ballpark is a useable figure. I will disagree. Whatever number she comes up with will be inconsistent with some aspect of the world she's described. Much as whatever creature you attempt to construct from the plate of bouillabaisse, there will be a fin or tentacle that just won't fit anywhere. Please understand that I like and applaud numbers in general, and yours in specific. Numbers are great as a way of forcing one to deal with facts that don't fit one's beliefs (which is why corporate accounting chicancery is so pernicious; it lets managers lie to themselves.) There's a kind of question that reputedly Microsoft employs in job interviews. Examples are "How many gas stations are there in the United States?" or "How many barbers are there in your city?" With only common knowledge and seat-of-the-pants calculation, one can get an order-of-magnitude figure. It's clear that the wizarding population of Great Britain is over 10,000 and under 1,000,000 and probably under 100,000. A seat-of-the-pants approach to all aspects of the society portrayed in the books may yield a more reliable number than an analysis, however detailed, of just one or two facts. - Caipora From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 23 16:48:22 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:48:22 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83424 > darryl_oneill wrote: > > > 5) There have been 5 books and J.K. has been very silent about what houses they were in. JKR has taken interview/chat questions about House for Lily, Hagrid, and somewhat obliquely, James. I'm sure questions about Sirius, Lupin and Peter have been submitted just as often, and she has her reasons for ignoring them. > sachmet96 > The points above are very good and I agree but there is one thing that I think might speak against the Slytherin theory. When Harry was in the pensieve he saw James and Sirius and they surely wore their school uniforms. Wouldn't Harry have noticed (and reacted) if the were form Slytherin? << The uniforms in the *books* don't indicate House. Harry and Ron mistook Ravenclaw Penelope Clearwater for a Slytherin in CoS, and even her prefect's badge didn't help them out. JKR has muddied the waters further by having Harry recollect that Ron's red and gold prefect's badge looks exactly like Percy's (which was silver. ) I suppose we're to understand that Harry has a rather poor eye for detail. That could explain all the problems he has with potions . Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 23 17:18:38 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:18:38 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: >> Tacky as that last line may sound--I'm really not interested in who's bedding whom, how often they're 'doing it,' and how varied their tastes may be. Really. I'm interested in what kind of social/ethical preparation Magicals give their children in regard to The Big Life Issues, and whether the apparent lack of formal instruction strays that far from the norms of British Muggle society. << I think the great divide is before and after the "sexual revolution", and the introduction of The Pill, though judging by the pregnancy statistics I think that there was probably as much sexual activity going on among teens before as after...only people wouldn't admit to it unless they "got caught". But if ethics were to be taught at Hogwarts, they would be the ethics of a society that enslaves its domestic workers, turns its criminals over to soul-sucking fiends, casually obliterates the memories of hapless Muggles and publicly excoriates teenage girls who have more than one boyfriend at a time. I can't blame Dumbledore for not holding ethics classes under those circumstances. I think Rowling's purpose is not to say, "real life society should be like this," but to get us to ask ourselves in what ways it already is. Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 23 18:01:31 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:01:31 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint: Fireplace in the common rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wry1352000" wrote: > Maybe Hogwarts fireplaces are magically restricted in such a way >that they can only be used for "head" travel, not "full body" >travel? >The only case of someone actually stepping out of a > Hogwarts fire so far happened when Snape summoned Lupin to his >office > At any rate, > Sirius didn't try to enter the Gryffindor common room via >somebody's fire in CoS when he was after Pettigrew/Scabbers, but >tried to get there the usual way. >Umbridge tried - and nearly did - catch Sirius by > hand when he was talking to Harry via Gr. fire. So are there more > than 2 ways of getting through the fire? If one can make one's > head appear in the fire and one's hand appear there on separate > occasions, can one manage to have both appear at the same time? Or >maybe it's just Umbridge who seemed to give herself many additional >surveilance powers .... Siriusly Snapey Susan here: Zinaida, sorry for all the snipping to your post, but these are the points I wanted to respond to. :-) First, didn't DD also step out of his office fireplace, in OoP, after the battle at the Ministry? Anyway, here are the assumptions [*assumptions*, not facts, so please don't yell at me, folks!] I am operating on, regarding floo travel: 1) *Outside* Hogwarts, only heads may "visit" via the floo network-- no full-body transfers. This may be something for which exceptions can be granted from within Hogwarts by staff or by just Dumbledore. This would explain both why Sirius couldn't just "floo" into Gryffindor Tower to get to Harry in PoA--he could hardly ask for an exception from DD!--and why DD could manage to "floo" into his own office from the MOM in OoP. 2)*Within*-Hogwarts travel by fireplace is possible, since as Zinaida noted, we've seen Snape do it. While not yet addressed in canon (I don't think), I'm wondering whether it might be possible that the staff members have this privilege, while students are restricted from it through some sort of magic. So I think Dolores' hand in the fire is "permissable" (just as her whole body would be), since it's *within* Hogwarts (and possibly because she's staff). She doesn't need to have set up any super- duper, special surveillance powers for herself if staff can regularly "floo" within Hogwarts. Siriusly Snapey Susan From grannybat at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 18:28:22 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:28:22 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?=93Gawd,_I_Miss_the_Screams=94*_(_was_No_Sex,_Please)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83427 June disabused me of my naive notions: > >> > > > ** Le Vice Anglais is the french being rude > > > about the fact that the stripes on the old school tie > > > are often matched by the stripes on the old school bottom. > > > > Rep striped pants? That's something I haven't seen on the PBS > > mysteries. Yet. > > We're not talking about pants here... "Le Vice Anglais" and > enthusiasm for it is believed to originate from the fine old school > custom of corporal punishment (caning). Well, there you go. This proves my point in another thread about missing the nuances of another culture when one's knowledge comes secondhand thru the media. I found it EXTREMELY interesting that Dumbledore does not allow corporal punishment of any kind at Hogwarts. Detention in the Forbidden Forest? OK. Falling five stories from your broom to the ground during a Quidditch match? That's part of the game. ...But so much as lay hands on a student to shake her, and polite, gentle Albus pulls out his wand. Whether he likes the junior Malfoy or not, Dumbledore must have been seriously steamed at Fake!Moody for bouncing FerretDraco against those stone floors. (And I was so hoping JKR would show us the Headmaster' reaction when he found out about Umbridge's bloody fountain pen.) Grannybat *Yes, I know that's a quote from TCMTMNBN1. It's still perfectly in character for Filch. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 19:06:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:06:06 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint: Fireplace in the common rooms In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031023211500.00a8e270@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > At 05:58 23/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: > > >bboy_mn wrote > > > >Let's us also note that only Floo Fire Talking can be acomplished. > >Hermione has repeatedly said that access into and out of Hogwarts > is blocked by protective spells. We have never seen any human > apparate or Floo Travel into or out of Hogwarts. > > > Tanya here > > I have a question for that. How on earth did Sirus manage to get > to the common room fire from Grimmald place ... Harry was able to > reverse the deal from Umbridge's office. I can understand Sirius > getting special clearance, but for it to work in reverse has me > puzzled. > > Tanya bboy_mn: I think the key is that fireplaces will only work for talking. So there are no general Hogwarts wide blocks on fireplace communication. That mean nothing restict Harry from talking to Sirius or Sirius from calling Harry. I do believe that some fireplaces are individually restricted from talking for privacy and security reason. People probably don't want the fireplace in their bedroom wide open to anyone who wants to pop their head in and take a look around. However, common area/public area fireplaces are probably open from both direction, BUT ONLY open for talking. Let's us remember that even Fire Talking still travels through the Floo Network, and that would mean the administrators of the Floo Network would have the ability to monitor and trace conversations. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 19:25:23 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:25:23 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: ...why wasn't Percy > among the Ministry people that arrived after the fight ? Laura: And here's one I've been wondering about: why weren't Arthur and Molly in the Order the first time around? From gromm at cards.lanck.net Thu Oct 23 19:27:10 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:27:10 +0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kneazles Oriental? References: Message-ID: <020901c399a0$762bb9a0$7541983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 83430 > Constance Vigilance: > > I don't have my books, either, but I remember that in the pet shop, > Crookshanks was a "huge" ginger cat with a bottle brush tail. I think > when she says "bottle brush" she meant that it had hair growing at a > 90 degree angle from the tail, rather than as a tassle. My cat is > huge and ginger-colored with a bottle brush tail and he's a Maine > Coon. Here is a picture of a Maine Coon in more-or-less Crookshanks > color as I see it but you don't get the idea of how big they are > without a reference. These can be BIG cats. > http://www.breedlist.com/maine-coon-breeders.html. > > FYI - in the first two movies, they used Maine Coons for Mrs. Norris. Maria here: No, I quoted Lexicon (quoting FB). Full kneazles are small, with a tail like a lion's. Crookshanks is PART KNEAZLE, the OTHER part in him IS Maine Coon, I think. From gromm at cards.lanck.net Thu Oct 23 19:51:44 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:51:44 +0400 Subject: Kneazle Definition from FB Message-ID: <020a01c399a0$7a5c6b00$7541983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 83431 Here is the Kneazle definition ftom FB, contributed by a friend: M.O.M classifcation xxx A small cat-like creature with flecked, speckled or spotted fur, outsize ears and a tail like a lion's, the kneazle is intelligent, independant and occasionally aggressive, though if it takes a liking to a witch or wizard, it makes an excellent pet. The kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavory or suspicious characters and can be relied upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost. Kneazles have up to eight kittens in a litter and can interbreed with cats. Licences are required for ownership as (like Crups and Fwoopers) Kneazles are sufficiently unusual in appearance to attract Muggle interest. This is what I've been talking of, Susan. Maria [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 23 20:26:15 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:26:15 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83432 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" > wrote: > ...why wasn't Percy > > among the Ministry people that arrived after the fight ? > > Laura: > > And here's one I've been wondering about: why weren't Arthur and > Molly in the Order the first time around? I think your question, Laura, actually may answer the first question. Why would the Weasleys be in the Order in the first place? They are not particulary influencial nor powerful--they've obviously got enough to do with raising their kids. I think they were probably let into this last reconveening of the Order, largely in part because of their ties to Harry. Protecting Harry, until he can do his duty is a very large responsibility upon the Order. Molly, being the smothering mothering type she is, is more than willing to take up a supervisory role of Harry while he is being "kept". Plus, his close friendship with Ron and the others (Fred, George and only really after OotP with Ginny) puts the Weasleys at risk as a potential tool to be used to manipulate Harry (see Sirius being tortured vision to set trap for Harry). These were all the reasons Dumbledore probably needed to ask them to join the Order. Taking advantage of Arthur's placement inside the Ministry and Bill and maybe Charlie's careers is just wisely using what you've got to work with for the Order's part. So anyway, if I'm stuck up Death Eater creek without a wand, I really wouldn't feel too saved if Molly or Arthur Weasley came bounding in the door to save the day...unless Arthur is going to whip out a muggle pistol and get all Matrix on them or bore them with talk of plugs and batteries while Molly scolds the rude little Death Eaters for their bad manners and for pointing their wands at people, I just don't see them being much help. They are just not the cavalry to me--nope--Tonks, Moody, Kingsley, Lupin--now *that's* the cavalry and Dumbledore--the general. Leave the cook at camp, besides, you really think she would be able to keep her wits about her if she came into there and found Ginny, Ron and her adopted-would be Harry outnumbered two-to-one by ruthless DE's? Nope, in fact, I'd floo Molly and send her in the opposite direction from home and the Ministry to make sure she never saw the clock and that she didn't accidently show up. As faaaaaaaar away as possible, mate. Definately. Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 23 20:50:22 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:50:22 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83433 > sachmet96 > The points above are very good and I agree but there is one thing > that I think might speak against the Slytherin theory. When Harry was > in the pensieve he saw James and Sirius and they surely wore their > school uniforms. Wouldn't Harry have noticed (and reacted) if they > were form Slytherin? He might not have said anything if they were > form any other house, but Slytherin would surely have been a shock > for him? >SNIP I don't belive it's anywhere in canon that the black Hogwarts robes have anykind of house patch on them like they do in the movie. Arya From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Oct 23 20:56:11 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:56:11 -0000 Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) In-Reply-To: <20031023132317.29000.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83434 "marigoldevans" wrote: > ... I think JKR and canon are both hinting at what he will become... a teacher at Hogwarts, specifically the DADA teacher.... at Hogwarts....Here's where the glee part comes in. JKR has said that she would end after seven books, when Harry left Hogwarts. But, what if he didn't leave? Imagine the fun she could have with Harry on the faculty now having to deal with Snape as a colleague...<<< Unfortunately, JKR has already said that Harry won't become a Hogwarts' teacher, although one of his classmates will: "one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but ----" The Courtesy 12 October 1999 (From Quick quotes) Ali Who would be more than happy for Harry to become the DADA teacher, but fears his future will be more traumatic... From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Thu Oct 23 21:17:28 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:17:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 References: Message-ID: <3ae001c399ab$1ac63300$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83435 o_caipora wrote: > The detailed extrapolation of wizarding population from the number of > Hogwarts students is like unto an attempt to recreate a dinosaur > based on a single vertabrae. Which can be done, sometimes. The precise shape tells up which position it's from, and sometimes the genus too, then the size tells you the overall size. With mammals, it's easier. A single tooth can be enough. > > However terrific the science applied, the results would probably > benefit from starting with more data. True, but science can be very good at getting the most out of minimal data. We can't give exact figures but we can say that a population outside the 10,000 to 40,000 range would make the books internally inconsistent, and that outside the 20,000 to 30,000 range would be a stretch. > > There is lots more data on the WW: the number of workers at the > Ministry of Magic, the described size of Hogsmeade "the only all- > wizard town in England", the commerce and infrastructure described. > > However, detailed analysis will be akin to taking a plate of > bouillabaisse and attempting to reconstruct the creature from which > it was made. Difficult but doable. Isotope ratios can tell us if it was carnivore, herbivore, or vegetable, and whereabouts it lived. More can be learned from a study of the proteins involved and, after a few decades of heavy computation, the DNA sequence can be reconstructed, alllowing a fairly rapid deduction of the creature or creatures' entire physiology. Digressions aside, you are seriously underestimating the ability of maths and science to extract data from noise. Caipora also wrote: > > Some smaller number may be enough. Some primitive tribes have gotten > by with less, but they didn't build railroads, magic or otherwise. > The sort of robust culture shown by the wizards requires some minimum > number, below which it can't be sustained. > However we don't know what contribution is made to wizarding society by non-wizards. We do know that the goblins provide financial services, and that muggles probably unwittingly supply agricultural products and other raw materials (the kind of items it's more efficient for wizards to buy in than produce themselves). Since we don't know what contribution non-wizards make, we can't draw any conclusions from the number of people that would be require to sustain wizarding society. > >> I think what you should have asked is how the wizarding world can >> maintain itself intact within the Muggle world. The answer is: magic. > > The big problem there is that we can't do any field studies of magic- > users. Thus, the search for a real-world analogy. > Consider a small town, maybe 25,000 people. A town that size will have a distinct sense of its own identity, even today. Once, before communication got easier, it would have had its own culture, divergent from the national mainstream. That town, like wizarding society, is not self-sustaining, but it can be near enough so that most citizens don't notice the outside traders who keep it functioning. Mikael wrote >> I don't think it would be a lot of trouble coming up with >> credible explanations for whatever the actual number is, but until >> JKR discloses the population figure, I think 24 000 wizards or >> something in that ballpark is a useable figure. > Caipora replied. > I will disagree. Whatever number she comes up with will be > inconsistent with some aspect of the world she's described. Much as > whatever creature you attempt to construct from the plate of > bouillabaisse, there will be a fin or tentacle that just won't fit > anywhere. > Which is when you conclude there were multiple species present. If there's an inconsistency present, then I'd like to pin it down and find out just how big it is. -- Robert From yswahl at stis.net Thu Oct 23 21:16:35 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:16:35 -0000 Subject: close reading of DoM scene - presupposition alert In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83436 jwcpgh ========== OOP pg 805 --- "Only one couple was were still battling.... Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest." Laura ========== When we were talking about the prophecy, I argued that JKR doesn't twist the plain meanings of words. She uses misdirection, foreshadowing, red herrings-but they're all plot devices, not grammatical or denotational alterations. So when she refers to a second jet of light, there must be a first, and since no one else is fighting at that moment, the only jet of light that could be the second one is the one Sirius just ducked-the one from Bellatrix. samnanya (me) =========== That is the presupposition trap! Just because JKR hasn't done it before doesnt mean that she won't do it now. Same logic trap (though more hidden here)in assuming that Kobe Bryant can't be a rapist because he always was a fine citizen before. THe only jet of light that could be the second one is any light that came from someone BELOW or (less likely imho) ON the dais - I dont see how anyone can make a definite provable statement that the light came from Bellatrix' wand based on JKR's description of the scene. All JKR had to do to prove it conclusively was substititue "Her second" for "The second" and about 100 posts would disapparate. On a side note, I am also that JKR is not giving interviews because she is in a dreadful predicament if she does - lie to her fans or give away yet another plot clue when people are so close..... If I were her I would be as secretive as Kreacher's getaway plan.... ========== From lbiles at flash.net Thu Oct 23 21:42:56 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:42:56 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83437 > wrote: Animagi (as we have noticed from Sirius's 'dog like' qualities) tend to show certain traits of the form of animal they become. > SnapesRaven: > This is a hint worthwhile pursuing, I think. Rita Skeeter might confirm this theory because her whole behaviour is that of a greedy little insect. > wrote: >IF Dumbledore IS an animagus, wouldn't it be fitting that he taught ... oh, I don't know - Transfiguration? leb: I too think the animagus has the qualities of the animal they become -- just look at Peter the rat-fink rat Pettigrew for the perfect example. However, when it comes to DD I'm not sure he is going to be an animagus. Various posts have pegged him as the bumblebee and then the wasp (who I think is probably Ludo Bagman) and now a cat. I think that instead of being an animagus he is just transfiguring into whatever would be most convenient and least obtrusive at the time. Don't forget that DD was the transfiguration teacher and year 6 is the year the students start learning human transfiguration. Of course I don't see this as too far fetched because one of my pet theories is Umbridge's toad-like appearance is the result of a transfiguration accident when she was a 6th year. There's got to be a reason that people who do not do well on the OWLs are not permitted to go on to further study in the field and this could be it. From yswahl at stis.net Thu Oct 23 21:52:17 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:52:17 -0000 Subject: Prophecy is correct - either harry/neville kills other harry/neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazle255" wrote: Tim writes: I think you're missing something. Harry picked the orb up off the shelf. If the prophecy had really been about Neville and not about Harry, then Harry would have ended up in St Mungo's like Bode (I think it was Bode who tried to get it under Voldy's command) did. It was made clear that the prophesy orb could only be taken by the person (s) the phophesy was about... then, and only then, could someone else touch it. Kneazle responds: What I find interesting is that only two people handle the prophecy-- Harry and Neville, the ONLY two boys the prophecy could possibly apply to. Apparently, at birth, the prophecy could have applied equally to either Harry or Neville. Basically, I believe the prophecy could still apply to eityher of them. I don't think the choice is not final yet. Samnan ============== Thanks Kneazle, you've saved my a lot of time. There is one thing extra though .... Another careful reading of the prophecy tells me that even Trelawney herself wasnt clear as to who "the one" that actually vanquishes the dark lord in the propehcy was referring to - which is why the question mark is next to harry's name .... forgive me if this was mentioned before but in case it hasnt .... where is it written that "either" and "other" refers to Harry and Voldemort??? Those words could also refer to Harry and Neville .... maybe "either" Harry and Neville Kill the "other" and the survivor, which could be either of them kill Voldemort. (leaves room for some options does she ....) Also, I always found the very end of the first book where DD gives the final 10 points to Neville for standing up to his friends rather interesting, as if DD WANTED Neville to have the final glory in winning the cup, for an event that occurred earlier than what the other 3 had endured, and yet was mentioned last.... Could there be a parable in that {gasp} Neville stands up to his friend Harry who is occupied by LV and is killed by Harry, who then kills Voldemort? Who would the ultimate hero be? Harry or St. Neville? I have the feeling that the "standing up to ones friends trait of Neville" will be back big time in book 7. hmmm i'll bet that makes the "either must die at the hand of the other" line a little less certain .... From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 23 22:30:33 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:30:33 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kneazles Oriental? In-Reply-To: <020901c399a0$762bb9a0$7541983e@rcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria Gromova" wrote: > > Constance Vigilance: > > My cat is > > huge and ginger-colored with a bottle brush tail and he's a Maine > > Coon. > > FYI - in the first two movies, they used Maine Coons for Mrs. Norris. > > Maria here: > No, I quoted Lexicon (quoting FB). Full kneazles are small, with a > tail like a lion's. Crookshanks is PART KNEAZLE, the OTHER part in > him IS Maine Coon,I think. Pip!Squeak: I'd be incredibly surprised if Crookshanks were part Maine Coon, because Maine Coons were only imported to the UK relatively recently. They are now being bred in the UK, but they tend to be rather expensive. I think TMTMNBN 1 and 2 used a Maine Coon *because* they're not common in the UK. They have (to us) an unusual look, very suitable for a magic cat. Crookshanks may possibly be a real mixture - part kneazle, part ordinary British moggy (common-or-garden cat), and part Scottish Wildcat. Wildcats have bottlebrush tales, and are, err... wild. They're the last undomesticated breed of cat in the UK. I think it would suit Crookshank's nature to be partly descended from an undomesticated breed. But you can find huge ginger tom cats with bottlebrush tails in the Muggle UK - the British cat is often quite large, and ginger toms are common. So Crookshanks may be a British moggy/Kneazle cross. Pip!Squeak From kmsyarto at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 19:30:37 2003 From: kmsyarto at hotmail.com (marigoldevans) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:30:37 -0000 Subject: T-BAY: DRIBBLEing Ashore (was Harry's Eyes & Dragon's Blood) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jana Fisher" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" > wrote: > > "DRIBBLE stands for Dragon's Resistance In Blood > > Bestows Life-saving Effects: > > GrannyBat - I like this theory. There is too much mentioned about > Dragons and their various parts (blood, skin, eyes) to be a > coincidence. And it makes sense that if they guard the Sorcerer's > Stone with multiple forms of protection, why would they not do this > with someone who has the ability to vanquish the greatest dark wizard > in a century. Dragon's blood, the rune scar, the mysterious way H > can block/duck/avoid curses. I am in the process of seeing whether I > can Owl Order one of those preservers. Hi! You know, I really love this theory. I had wondered for quite awhile about the numerous dragon references. What I don't know is whether or not this is one more... In COS, whenever Harry speaks Parseltongue, it's described as a hissing noise. Then, in GOF, during the first task when Harry is trying to lure the Hungarian Horntail into rearing up away from the eggs, he also hisses. Ch. 20, pg. 356 (Am. ed.): "'Come on,' Harry hissed, swerving tantalizingly above her, 'come on, come and get me...up you get now...' And then she reared,..." Of course, perhaps this is just the verb choice JKR made to show that Harry wasn't really speaking aloud, but rather muttering under his breath. But is it possible that he might be able to speak to dragons? For what it's worth... Marigold From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 20:59:07 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore the animagus? Message-ID: <20031023205907.29267.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83441 23Oct03 SnapesRaven wrote: "This is a hint (that DD could be a cat animagnus behaving as a cat) worthwhile pursuing, I think. In OotP where Fudge and all those ministry workers are knocked out in DD's office, Dumbledore says something about not having to go into hiding when he left the school ...He also said to Fudge that even if he WAS sent to Azkaban, he could easily break out. ... IF Dumbledore IS an animagus, wouldn't it be fitting that he taught... oh, I don't know - Transfiguration? Well, according to Tom Riddle, he did. Rowling never puts in these little tidbits for the heck of it. ..." Granny Responds: This all goes back to my theory of cats being on the side of the "Good Guys"(Conventions, Clues, and Cats) and that JKR has been hinting to us all along that they will play some crucial role. IMHO, this theory would be a beautiful missing link. When I re-read the part in OotP about DD's escape from his office, it's perfectly clear that his behaviour is VERY catlike--quick, agile movements, grabbing Fawlk's tails feathers and disappearing in a "flash of fire". There's even a contridiction here. It's well known that one cannot diapperate within Hogwarts. So how did DD pull off this disappearing act? Could it be that he worked some sort of a memory charm and caused everyone to THINK they saw him and Fawlks disappear when he actually turned into a cat and simply jumped out the window? Or, maybe Fawlk's fire actually CONCEALED the transfiguration. My goodness, this is fun; even imagined that the MM people would have said "RATS!" when they saw that DD was gone. Oh well, can't wait to see what JKR has in store for us. Granny Goodwitch --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kara_filley at inter-tel.com Thu Oct 23 21:57:31 2003 From: kara_filley at inter-tel.com (karafilley) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:57:31 -0000 Subject: Slashing Movement/Purple Flame Spell (WAS: Spells and Spell Creation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davidseppi" wrote: > > Also, is it safe to assume that really powerful wizards do not need > to use incantations, are incantations like training wheels? During > duel between LV and Dumbledore at the end of OOTP, nary an > incantation was spoken, yet the power of the spells caused Harry's > hair to stand on end. Also, a death eater produces a spell at > Hermione by simply slashing in the air producing a purplish fire. We later hear that the spell would have been much more powerful if the > incantation had been spoken. Perhaps the wizard was not powerful > enough to properly use an incantationless spell. Now me... Though not the true purpose of your post, it brought a thought to me. Why doesn't Dolohov use the incantation for the "slashing movement/purple flame" spell? The first time it is used (against Hermione) Dolohov has just been "Silencio-ed" by Hermione(Pg 792), so he obviously can't, but he uses this same spell twice more. Once against Harry (Pg. 803) (Harry successfully uses a shield charm in defense). Then against Sirius (also Pg. 803) (Harry puts Dolohov in a total body bind before he can finish is slashing movement.) In between all this, Dolohov also shouts "Tarantallegra" toward Neville and "Accio Proph..." He has his voice back. So, why no incantation? Also...Do we know what this spell is? All I've been able to find is that it kncked Hermione out cold and made her ribs tender. And a decription of the wand movement several times. By the way, please be gentle with me, I'm new. -K From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Oct 23 23:35:12 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:35:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's Arithmancy skills (was James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83443 Pippin wrote: > I suppose we're to understand that Harry has a rather poor eye > for detail. That could explain all the problems he has with > potions . Could it explain why it's difficult to estimate the number of students at Hogwarts from his observations? David From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 23 19:11:02 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:11:02 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20031023174651.02236140@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031024080731.00a5acd0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83444 At 14:26 23/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Stephanie here: > >I love that idea!! I've only been thinking about places hardly >mentioned, but it's true that Hermione has been studying a lot that >she's hasn't been able to use yet. Maybe it's not Hermione who >risks her life, but Ginny. >Tanya: My thought of everything becoming what is should have >been...my thought was with Vold.'s death is also the death of all >his evil...as if everything was a dream. Imagine Harry defeating >Voldemort...then walking outside the room only to find his mother >and father reading the Daily Prophet at the table, waiting for >Sirius to show up for dinner. A great twist ending. >Sounds right in my head, but might not in this post. Tanya now. True, that would be a different way to end it. Would be bittersweet though, all those missed years. But on the other hand, I had the feeling Dumbledore was trying to deal with this war in a way that another would not be likely to take LV's place. But who knows. Must go back and read segments of book 5 later this morning. From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 00:21:40 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:21:40 -0000 Subject: Canon supporting KITTENS & RAINBOWS (little bit of TBAY) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83445 A nice sunny day in Theory Bay. Maus, self proclaimed captain of the galleon KITTENS & RAINBOWS, was very pleased with himself. KITTENS & RAINBOWS - Key Is The Transferred Essence Now Seeking Reunion. Affection Is Not Beyond Obsessive Wicked Sorcerer; the theory that a part of Voldemort's mind is trapped inside Harry, Voldemort is not truly alive, and Voldemort cannot become truly alive until Harry is dead.* Maus was so pleased with himself because he had just finished his inventory of the canon available for supporting the KITTENS & RAINBOWS. It had taken several weeks, but then there was a lot of canon to go through and he wasn't exactly a fast reader. Maus reached inside his jacket pocket and pulled the rolled up piece of parchment out again. He glanced at it then looked over at the three shiny new cannons prominently displayed on the deck, he smiled. 'Time for a drink' he thought to himself, looked around him, and quickly spotted the George on the other side of the bay. Now if only he knew how to sail. *) See also messages #79691, #78982. ********************************************************************** Inventory of canon supporting KITTENS & RAINBOWS: Canon supporting that Voldemort is not truly alive: -- "Some say he died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die." [Hagrid, PS/SS] Hagrid is not the most reliable source of information, but it seems he knows something about this. As he says so himself in GoF: "Knew he was goin' ter come back. Known it fer years. Harry. Knew he was out there, bidin' his time. It had ter happen. Well, now it has, an' we'll jus' have ter get on with it." Voldemort's loss of his humanity seems to be closely related to his inability to feel love or pain. I believe both these things are at the root of why Voldemort is no longer truly alive. -- "... not being truly alive, he cannot be killed." [Dumbledore, PS/SS] It could be that Voldemort couldn't be killed because of the unicorn blood he drank. The resulting state of cursed half-life would then explain why Dumbledore refers to him as not being truly alive. Unicorn blood however doesn't seem to keep you permanently from dying. Drinking unicorn blood certainly didn't prevent Professor Quirrell from dying. It is perhaps more likely therefore that Voldemort couldn't be killed because of the one or more 'experiments' that also made him survive the rebounded AK curse. It was these experiments then that resulted in Voldemort no longer being truly alive. Which would mean that in his obsessive quest for everlasting life Voldemort actually sacrificed the ability to live. I hope the irony is not lost on everyone. And of course, if Voldemort was not truly alive at the time he survived the rebounded AK curse, why would he be truly alive now? -- "... for neither can live while the other survives." [Trelawney, OotP] Harry simplifies this as 'one will have to kill the other'. And in part that is what it says, but that's not all it is saying. 'Neither' meaning 'not Harry and not Voldemort' the above can be broken down into: Voldemort cannot live while Harry survives AND Harry cannot live while Voldemort survives. It's important to note that both statements have to be true. Now the tricky part; the meaning of the word 'while'. Either it means 'when on the other hand' or it means 'as long as'; giving us the following possible combinations: 1) Voldemort cannot live when on the other hand Harry survives. AND Harry cannot live when on the other hand Voldemort survives. 2) Voldemort cannot live when on the other hand Harry survives. AND Harry cannot live as long as Voldemort survives. 3) Voldemort cannot live as long as Harry survives. AND Harry cannot live when on the other hand Voldemort survives. 4) Voldemort cannot live as long as Harry survives. AND Harry cannot live as long as Voldemort survives. The first combination seems to be nonsensical, it would mean that both Harry and Voldemort cannot live and both Harry and Voldemort survive at the same time. Which leaves the last three. At least one of them and perhaps even both cannot live *as long as* the other survives. Since both Harry and Voldemort at present clearly seem to be surviving, this would mean that at least one of them is not truly alive at the moment. If it's Voldemort who is not truly alive then Voldemort cannot become truly alive again until Harry dies. Which would mean that until Harry dies Voldemort cannot be killed. Canon supporting that Harry has a bit of Voldemort's mind inside of him: -- "'You can speak Parseltongue, Harry,' said Dumbledore calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure...' 'Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?' Harry said, thunderstruck. 'It certainly seems so.'" [CoS] Ok, so we all know Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry the night his AK curse backfired. And that same night a connection was formed between Harry and Voldemort, a connection that allows Harry to feel what Voldemort feels, sometimes even lets him see and hear what Voldemort sees and hears, and makes his scar hurt whenever Voldemort is near by. But like Harry thinks to himself in OotP, Dumbledore has never been able to give a satisfactorily explanation for this connection. A possible explanation might be that Voldemort transferred more than just some of his powers that night, that in fact a part of Voldemort's mind was somehow transferred to Harry. Two separate parts of the same split up mind would have a strong connection. -- "It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban straight into Harry's eyes -- and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead." [PS/SS] "The hooded figure raised its head and looked right at Harry -- unicorn blood was dribbling down its front. It got to its feet and came swiftly toward Harry -- he couldn't move for fear. Then a pain like he'd never felt before pierced his head; it was as though his scar were on fire. Half blinded, he staggered backward." [PS/SS] "Harry did the best he could, trying to ignore the stabbing pains in his forehead, which had been bothering him ever since his trip into the forest." [PS/SS] "Harry was rubbing his forehead. 'I wish I knew what this means!' he burst out angrily. 'My scar keeps hurting -- it's happened before, but never as often as this.'" [PS/SS] If there is a part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry, it seems reasonable to assume that this separated part of Voldemort's mind is causing the pain Harry feels in his scar. The crippling stabbing pains Harry feels when Voldemort is near by are then most likely a result of the separated part of Voldemort desperately trying to return to Voldemort. Whenever Voldemort is near by Harry's head is always described as feeling like it is about to split open. Quoted above are all the instances in PS/SS where Harry's scar hurt before his final showdown with Quirrellmort. After the incident at the start-of-term feast Harry doesn't feel his scar again until he meets Quirrellmort in the Forbidden Forest. Which isn't until a week before final exams. For almost nine months Harry is in close proximity of Voldemort and not a mention of the slightest hint of pain from his scar. Then in the week following his encounter with Quirrellmort Harry's scar practically won't stop hurting. Why doesn't Harry feel any pain in his scar before his encounter with Quirrellmort? This does not seem like an innocuous side effect which merely warns Harry when Voldemort is near by, this seems more like something caused by a conscious mind who until the trip into the forest simply was not aware that Voldemort was near by. -- "'Naturally, naturally,' murmured Dumbledore apparently to himself, still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of surprise. 'But in essence divided?' Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The smoke serpent, however, split itself instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air." [OotP] Apparently the essence of something or someone is divided. It could well be that Dumbledore is talking about the essence of Voldemort, Voldemort's mind. The snakes would then represent the separate parts of Voldemort's mind, which share a bond but at the same time have been living completely separate lives for the past 15 years. One part trapped inside Harry watching him grow up, the other forced to go into exile waiting for his followers to finally come looking for him. Only when Voldemort kills Harry will the snakes at last become one again. -- "And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half- forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that." [CoS] It can't have been the anagram that made the name seem familiar, at that point in the story Harry didn't know Riddle's full name was Tom Marvolo Riddle. What we have here then is clear evidence that there is a part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry and that this part of Voldemort has at one time attempted to influence Harry. It seems Harry had an imaginary friend when he was little. An imaginary friend going by the name Tom Riddle. So apparently the separated part of Voldemort's mind talked to Harry when he was very small. Why did he stop talking to Harry? Did Harry's mind grow to powerful for him, slowly swallowing him up in the process? Was it a tactical decision to stop talking to Harry? More importantly, will Tom Riddle eventually re-emerge and start talking to Harry again? -- "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much, because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully -- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it -- then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold -- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." [PS/SS] In his dream Harry is wearing Professor Quirrell's turban; of course later we find out that hidden underneath Professor Quirrell's turban was Voldemort. Which suggests that like Professor Quirrell there is a part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry. The turban is constantly talking to Harry, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin. And then eventually the weight of the turban starts to suffocate Harry. Which seems to suggest that the part of Voldemort inside of Harry has been trying to subconsciously influence him. If we can believe dream interpretation actually is an important means of divining the future, that is. While we have our copies of 'The Dream Oracle' out, could the fact that Malfoy turns into Snape perhaps indicate that Malfoy will eventually switch sides like Snape once did? -- "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great." [Dumbledore, GoF / Hermione, OotP] This may be wishful thinking; but could Harry's hot-headedness in OotP have been caused by the part of Voldemort inside of Harry subconsciously influencing him? It seems suspicious that Harry's problems with his temper started at the exact same time Voldemort suddenly became a lot more powerful. Especially when combined with Quirrell's turban constantly talking to him in his dream. Is the separated part of Voldemort perhaps whispering nasty little thoughts to Harry while he's asleep? Canon supporting that Voldemort will kill Harry: -- "Firenze saved me, but he shouldn't have done so... Bane was furious... he was talking about interfering with what the planets say is going to happen... They must show that Voldemort's coming back... Bane thinks Firenze should have let Voldemort kill me... I suppose that's written in the stars as well." [Harry, PS/SS] The centaurs seem to have some deeper insight into the way in which the future will unfold. I'm not exactly sure Bane was aware of the fact that Firenze had just saved Harry from Voldemort, but he did accuse Firenze of setting himself against the heavens. Perhaps it *is* written in the stars that Voldemort will kill Harry. -- "Professor Trelawney, however, did not sit down; her enormous eyes had been roving around the table, and she suddenly uttered a kind of soft scream. 'I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die!'" [GoF] "... Harry and Ron got up first from the table and she shrieked loudly. 'My dears! Which of you left his seat first? Which?' 'Dunno,' said Ron, looking uneasily at Harry." [GoF] We'll ignore Professor Trelawney's usual predictions of Harry's death for a moment. Trelawney's reluctance to join the table comes from a powerful superstition which can be traced back to events described in the Bible. During the last supper Jesus was joined by his 12 apostles. Judas who feared that Jesus knew he had betrayed him was the first to leave the table. And he was in fact the first to die when he hanged himself out of guilt over what he had done. -- "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second. Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." [GoF] I'm not sure if I dare suggest this; the gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye, could it be because Voldemort can now kill Harry? If Harry's death is a necessary step towards fulfilling the prophecy and ultimately the downfall of Voldemort, then Lilly's lingering protection was all that was standing in the way of this happening. I wouldn't even suggest this if it wasn't for the fact that a second later Dumbledore looked as old and weary as he had ever done. Dumbledore knows this also means Harry will have to die. ********************************************************************** I believe the separated part of Voldemort's mind will play an important part in Voldemort becoming truly alive again. There will probably have to be a fierce internal struggle inside Harry before the separated part of Voldemort's mind becomes human again. But then when Voldemort kills Harry the separated part of Voldemort's mind will finally be able to return to Voldemort, allowing Voldemort to experience the love it experienced while inside Harry. Feeling love will ultimately be what makes Voldemort truly alive again. Comments, suggestions, anyone? -Maus From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 00:32:36 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:32:36 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kneazles Oriental? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Crookshanks may possibly be a real mixture - part kneazle, part > ordinary British moggy (common-or-garden cat), and part Scottish > Wildcat. Wildcats have bottlebrush tales, and are, err... wild. > They're the last undomesticated breed of cat in the UK. I think it > would suit Crookshank's nature to be partly descended from an > undomesticated breed. Laura: At last-a subject at which I can compete with Pip! (We have 5 cats, 2 of which are Maine Coon mixes.) Crookshanks always sounds like a Persian mix to me, because of the squashed face thing. And they can be pretty hefty. However, he's smarter than a lot of Persians-must be the kneazle in him. From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 00:42:51 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:42:51 -0000 Subject: Why FLY when you can FLOO to Grimmauld Place? (was Re: Possible Flint: Fireplace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83447 bboy_mn wrote: > Common area/public area > fireplaces are probably open from both direction, BUT ONLY open for > talking. > > Let's us remember that even Fire Talking still travels through the > Floo Network, and that would mean the administrators of the Floo > Network would have the ability to monitor and trace conversations. Well, this may solve a question that has bothered me ever since reading OoP. Instead of Harry just popping his head into the fire at the end of OoP to check if Sirius is there, why not just step all the way through? After all, Harry's aim is to get to London- Grimmauld Place is *in* London. Getting from Grimmauld Place to The Ministry of Magic would be far less complicated than getting from Hogwarts to London. Especially seeing as then there would be no risk of getting caught in Umbridge's office- that is, Harry could just step straight through, Hermione could leave and Umbridge would appear and find no-one by the fire-place at all. Then, we could have avoided the whole issue with the "Weapon," the Centaurs, Grawp and the Thestrals. (Not to mention, Harry would have seen Sirius in the house and never gone to the Department of Mysteries in the first place). What's more, after Umbridge is carried away by the Centaurs, why not just return to her office to use the fire? It'd be quicker than Thestrals. I'd bet they could just say "Minstry of Magic" as they walked through the fireplace and only have to take the lift. However, if the fires can't be used for actually travelling, then all these holes are filled in. The only problem is, why hasn't JKR told us that? Without this vital piece of information it just makes Harry's choices through-out the end of the book look completely foolish and random. But if fireplaces *can* be used for travelling then JKR has left us with a lot of simple solutions that would have solved Harrys' crises in the blink of an eye: If only he'd stepped all the way through the fire place, none of this would have ever happened. If only they'd said 'Hey let's go back to Umbridge's completely unguarded office.' The point of everything after Harry's vision is to delay their departure. It was all a plot device to make sure that they reached the Department of Mysteries after work hours had finished and the whole place was completely deserted. But why not just delay Harry's vision until later? Why not just have it later on that night in the Gryffindor common room? Then they can still do their little diversionary tactics, but actually go all the way throught he fire place. We already knew the Centaurs were waging war, do we need to see it again? We already knew Grawp was in the forest, do we need to see that again? The Thestrals are abandoned as soon as they have fulfilled their use, does it matter if the DA arrive by fireplace or air? What part do the others actually play in the battle? I mean, Harry would have never seen his name on the prophecy if it was't for Ron! He would've just walked out and started looking for Sirius elsewhere. If JKR does allow floo travel in Hogwart's fireplaces, then she has a lot of questions to answer. If she doesn't allow such transportation, then why doesn't she tell us, and put my mind at ease...! ~<(Laurasia)>~ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Oct 24 00:48:00 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:48:00 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83448 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy" wrote: > > The second thing that occurs to me is that perhaps Snape really > *has* applied for the position every year, but doesn't actually want > the job. It could be something he and Dumbledore agreed upon to > create the appearance of tension between the two of them. Snape > applies every year, Dumbledore turns him down, of *course* Snape > can't stand that barmy old codger. It would give Snape an excuse to > appear angry or disloyal to Dumbledore should the need arise. Jen: This one seems like a good bet to me. Because if Snape really *did* want the job, and the only barrier is personal reservations on Dumbledore's part, then surely the dire situation in OOTP would help DD overcome his hang-up! "...Educational Decree Twenty-two was passed, to ensure that, in the event of the current headmaster being unable to provide a candidate for a teaching post, the Ministry should select an appropriate person." (OOTP, US, chap. 15, p. 307). If Snape could teach DADA, whether he wants to or not, why didn't DD move him over for the year and look for a temporary Potions teacher so that Umbridge wasn't appointed? Maybe I'm assuming too much to say another Potions Master is readily available. Unless Dumbledore wanted a Ministry offical at Hogwarts. Sure, it could be a plot device, to bring in Umbridge (or any MOM representative) to depict the tensions between Hogwarts and the MOM (i.e., Dumbledore and Fudge). There could be more, though. It's a good idea to know your *enemy* and the MOM is definitely an enemy to the Order in OOTP. Surely Dumbledore, who knows the castle so well and understands the protections and enchantments in place, wouldn't have any trouble getting confidential MOM information from a Ministry official housed in his territory. Or it could just be what we're told, that Dumbledore couldn't find anyone ;). But that's not as much fun to speculate about! From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Fri Oct 24 02:25:09 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:25:09 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon supporting KITTENS & RAINBOWS (little bit of TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031024151910.00a222f0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83449 At 00:21 24/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Maus wrote > >I believe the separated part of Voldemort's mind will play an >important part in Voldemort becoming truly alive again. There will >probably have to be a fierce internal struggle inside Harry before >the separated part of Voldemort's mind becomes human again. But then >when Voldemort kills Harry the separated part of Voldemort's mind >will finally be able to return to Voldemort, allowing Voldemort to >experience the love it experienced while inside Harry. Feeling love >will ultimately be what makes Voldemort truly alive again. > >Comments, suggestions, anyone? > >-Maus Tanya here That theory ties in neatly. But I have one major question. While LV in the end would feel love and etc. How many from the WW would then leave him in peace and be friends? Also, who that was left from his DE followers would take the change calmly. I can just imagine them hunting him down, and perhaps killing him, then both would be dead. That is, if I imagine this theory right, and LV then has Harry's influence, and becomes a bit like him, changing his motives etc due to the part of him being in Harry. Tanya From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Oct 24 03:29:21 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:29:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) Message-ID: <93.34c84d9b.2cc9f691@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83450 In a message dated 10/23/03 10:01:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: > Sorry, I don't have my book with me, but I think the only hint is > Harry's thought upon seeing Ron under a tree, that he looks exactly > like another Gryffindor, which we all agree means James. > > BUT this is only Harry's opinion. I remember being surprised the > first time I read that sentence, because I was wondering how ever > Harry knew that James was in Gryffindor. It simply doesn't say so > anywhere. It says that Harry thinks so, but it doesn't say why. Harry > could be wrong. > When Harry is seeing his father in the Pensieve scene, his fifteen year old father is wearing his robes, on those robes are markings that show he is in Gryffindor. JKR didn't spell it out in the book, but we could assume that as Harry's robes has the markings, so did James'. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Oct 24 03:57:06 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 03:57:06 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: <93.34c84d9b.2cc9f691@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83451 > In a message dated 10/23/03 10:01:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > delwynmarch at y... writes: > > > Sorry, I don't have my book with me, but I think the only hint is > > Harry's thought upon seeing Ron under a tree, that he looks exactly > > like another Gryffindor, which we all agree means James. > > > > BUT this is only Harry's opinion. I remember being surprised the > > first time I read that sentence, because I was wondering how ever > > Harry knew that James was in Gryffindor. It simply doesn't say so > > anywhere. It says that Harry thinks so, but it doesn't say why. Harry > > could be wrong. > > Batchevra at a... wrote: > When Harry is seeing his father in the Pensieve scene, his fifteen year old > father is wearing his robes, on those robes are markings that show he is in > Gryffindor. JKR didn't spell it out in the book, but we could assume that as > Harry's robes has the markings, so did James'. > WARNING!!! This is movie contamination!!! There is no evidence that robes in canon have any patches or markings on them to denote to which House a student belongs!!! >From PS: "Students require...three sets of plain work robes (black)" But on the other hand, I really hate that JKR is so vaugue on what they wear at Hogwarts. I mean it has always sounded like harry wears jeans and t-shirts or such and then his robe over it (maybe that's just Mary GrandPre contamination--but then again, she isn't that in tune with all the details). But then we see Snape with nothing but his greying underpants beneath his robe... I do find it unlikely that in a boarding school such as Hogwarts, that they would be allowed to wear such things as jeans or other "muggle" like *casual* clothing as a part of their uniforms. I also would find it hard to believe that there isn't any distiguishing article they wear to denote House--how else could Harry see a "group of Hufflepuffs" of a "Slytherin boy he didn't know the name of". I do like the idea of the crests on the robes, but, it is important to remember that we don't have evidence that they are there. Arya From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 24 06:02:58 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:02:58 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83452 --- "Jen Reese" wrote: (snipped) > If Snape could teach DADA, why didn't DD move him over for > the year and look for a temporary Potions teacher so that > Umbridge wasn't appointed? Maybe I'm assuming too much to > say another Potions Master is readily available. > > Unless Dumbledore wanted a Ministry offical at Hogwarts. > > Sure, it could be a plot device, to bring in Umbridge > to depict the tensions between Hogwarts and the MOM If Snape left Potions, then Umbridge would have taught that class by getting the class to read from chapter one ..."-and don't bother about bringing those cauldrons thingys," she'd say. "The smell of potions brewing makes me come out in hives, so we will just read." Any good wizard or witch trusted by DD for DADA would be busy in the Order. The only exception was Sirius Black. He would have been great, if not for the fact that every Auror and dementor in the country was after him. Heck, Dobby would be preferable to Umbridge. From nianya_c at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 18:53:15 2003 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:53:15 -0000 Subject: The VEIL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83453 Phil Posted: Third Idea about the VEIL..... 3. The voices Harry and Luna heard are Arthur, Molly, and Bill Weasley. Bill works at Gringotts and the Weasleys are in the Gringott tunnel area preparing for Sirius' arrival (following Dumbledore's plan as postulated by the T-BAY experts). Harry even calls out "Ron" at one point thinking he hears his voice from the veil. Any canon on whether Arthur or Bill sound like Ron? ..... I have most faith in idea 3 above. This may mean that Sirius is still alive but I must stress that I am ambivalent (have I used that correctly) about his state of health. Harry believes that Sirius died and his attitude and actions at the MoM and in the future require him to continue to believe Sirius dead until Voldemort is defeated. > Most, if not all, postees seem to agree that Sirius is truly dead, but purely from the book, the reader cannot be certain. The certainty that Sirius is dead comes from a JKR interview does it not? She cried when she 'killed' him. But could this emotion be not from the death of character Sirius but because of the effect the apparent death was to have on Harry. Remember Dumbledore has already put Harry through 10 years of misery with the Dursleys so another 2 years (only we know it's 2 years, not DD etc ) for Harry believing Sirius is dead for the good of the PLAN is acceptable to DD but, IMHO, worse when Harry learns the truth than if Sirius has really died. Nianya Relied: I totally agree that this theory is possible and posted a similar suggestion on another board a few weeks ago that Sirius may have faked his death as part of Dumbledore's plan and that JKR was so upset due to Harry's reaction. This definitely could fit with the overall story plan so far and Lupin and the others were way too happy after his death....almost like they knew something was up. Nianya ....who completed OWLS in English and Lit.....NEWTS in Law and would have alot more fun in life as an Auror. From pjcousins at btinternet.com Thu Oct 23 23:38:59 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:38:59 -0000 Subject: Re CoS Scene (Kwikspell) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Sitting gazing vacantly at the ceiling as usual when I remembered >an > anomaly. > > There was speculation a few weeks ago as posters tried to figure >out > which episode in CoS had been retained in the CoS film at the > insistence of JKR. > B Arrowsmith queried the Hagrid with rooster scene, others since queried the Knockturn Alley and Hagrid with Crossbow scenes. I think the crossbow scene is likely to recur but the object of this post is to suggest an important role for the Kwikspell course(s) and its customers. In CoS we learn that Argus Filch, the caretaker, is a Squib. Harry discovers this in the book by being taken to Filch's office by Filch and sees the Kwikspell course (in an envelope) on his desk. If I remember correctly, the Filch office scene is omitted from the film, but there is a brief shot of Filch walking with the Kwikspell course sticking out of a back pocket! Surely if it so embarrassing to be a Squib he would not risk carrying anything with Kwikspell prominently displayed on it around Hogwarts. This observation leads me to suspect Kwikspell is important. 1. Who runs the courses? Where do the fees end up? Is it a money raising sideline for LV possibly fronted by Lucius Malfoy or some other LV supporter? 2. What might happen as the student completes the Kwikspell course if it is a LV enterprise? Perhaps a graduation ceremony where success is rewarded with Imperio! Constant Vigilance! Since this is a CoS post I will close by admitting that 30 years ago I was the proud owner of a Ford Anglia Estate (station wagon) and it used to fly when I had fitted home built electronic ignition. Phil From pjcousins at btinternet.com Thu Oct 23 23:54:26 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:54:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's Pensieve, James' scar? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83455 No one has mentioned this part of the fracas between Severus and James in the pensieve scene, "Snape's Worst Memory", page 570 UK edition. (Snape directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James' face) How accurate is the description of the location of the gash? Is the result of this wound likely to be a scar of a certain shape? How many times are we told how alike James and Harry are? Does anybody think this is relevant? Phil. From corliss_plum at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 00:05:44 2003 From: corliss_plum at yahoo.com (Christie Nixon) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and James not Aurors (Was - Could Harry really be an Auror?) Message-ID: <20031024000544.97076.qmail@web11904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83456 Arya: >>One thing I think that the whole "born to those who have thrice defied him" may not necessarily mean Lily and James but "of those" in a sense of other ancestors. Just an example, say, James Pottter's grandparent(s) defied Volde once, then his parent(s) did it for the second time and then finally James/and/ or/Lily did for the third time. There are several ways to permutate this if you buy it, and I am merely just giveing a theorhetical *example*--not a theory. Anyway, so, by this, it may be possible that James and Lily did not necessarily have to have time to defy Volde three times all by themselves.<< About that... Dumbledore later explains about the Longbottoms and the Potters. He describes "both sets of parents [as] having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." (OoP US p. 842) CP __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From o_caipora at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 06:12:21 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:12:21 -0000 Subject: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 In-Reply-To: <3ae001c399ab$1ac63300$e5de87d9@robertft56e9wi> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83457 "Robert Shaw" wrote: > If there's an inconsistency present, then I'd like to pin it > down and find out just how big it is. Due the fertility of Rowling's imagination, for which God bless her, there's just too much stuff for a small population. Take transport. To get around wizards have: portkeys; the Knight Bus; floo powder; brooms; MoM cars with special traffic-parting powers; thestrels; and the Hogwarts Express. And I may have forgotten a few. And as she writes she invents more. Just in the last volume we got the MoM and the hospital. Somebody's probably already calculated how many workers there are in each of those. There are two books left, and there's bound to be more things that require more wizards to run them. > However we don't know what contribution is made to wizarding > society by non-wizards. We know that the WW is subject to time and decay. Besides the condition of the Black house, secret passages collapse at Hogwarts, and the school needs a custodian. All that fancy wizard stuff must be not only built, but maintained. Let's take just the Hogwarts Express. It uses station and track, and has and engine and always just the right amount of cars. Perhaps wizards didn't build the platform: engineers since the Pyramids have put passages into their drawings that they didn't explain to the stoneworkers. The cheapest use of wizard labor would have be to use a spell to alter the blueprints, and then enchant the entrance once the workers were gone. Even so, Platform 9 3/4 probably needs cleaning and repainting not much less than Platform 9 does. And all that track! Maybe most is Muggle track, with the signals charmed to keep other trains off when the Express is running. But even that implies someone to devise new charms as Muggle systems change, and there has to be a few kilometers of track too close to Hogwarts to let Muggle track workers approach. It's at least a dozen people, assuming they all work several tasks. And that's for a train that runs twice a year. There a limit to what can be done "by magic". The effort that Fred and George expend in launching a new business and trying to create new project shows what magic can't do. It probably can't make the trains run on time, all by itself. Others have brought up the daily paper, the magazines, the several professional Quiddich teams. Another data point is Mundungis's trade in stolen cauldrons. Is a population of 24,000 sufficient so that the makers and buyers of said cauldrons don't trip over one another? Somehow it doesn't seem so. > > However, detailed analysis will be akin to taking a plate of > > bouillabaisse and attempting to reconstruct the creature from > > which it was made. > > Difficult but doable. Perhaps "fruit salad" would have been a clearer example. Depending on your recipe, several to half-a-dozen kinds of seafood go into bouillabaisse, and no amount of analysis will permit a reconstuction of what "the Bouillabaisse" looks like swimming in the sea. There are detailed stories of magical worlds. In Randall Garret's "Lord Darcy" stories such as "Too Many Magicians" magic follows consistent rules. In Larry Niven's "The Magic Goes Away" the nature of magic is described, and the central plot device, the Warlock's Wheel, can be seen to be "valid" magic under the rules given. Rowling doesn't have that level of consistency. She throws into the cauldron whatever looks tasty. > Digressions aside, you are seriously underestimating the ability > of maths and science to extract data from noise. There has to be data there, though. Even a single vertabra must have once been part of a creature that swam, crawled, ran, or flew. Rowling's wizards, though, are not part of a real world. They are not even part of a world invented with great care given to consistency. She's given us some hard numbers, and you've carefully come up with a solution and a margin of error from that. But the details she throws in with each sucessive volume just don't seem to square with such a small population. Even the number of chairs at the High Table in the Hogwarts Great Hall produce an absurd student/faculty ratio. > Consider a small town, maybe 25,000 people. > > A town that size will have a distinct sense of its own identity, > even today. Once, before communication got easier, it would > have had its own culture, divergent from the national mainstream. Supporting three professional sports teams, a newpaper, a railroad, three or four transport systems, a large hospital, and several hundred government employees? Can you envision that? Certainly wizards have some advantages over Muggles. A charm that makes income invisible to the IRS ("Inland Revenue" over there, I think) would be a far lesser magic than many Rowling describes, and far more useful. - Caipora From corliss_plum at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 00:15:43 2003 From: corliss_plum at yahoo.com (Christie Nixon) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) Message-ID: <20031024001543.57371.qmail@web11905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83458 sachmet96 >>I also think it unlikely that all major players are from Gryffindor. But I do believe that James at least might have been in Gryffindor. He acts like a bully but putting him in Slytherin would be too stereotypical, so I hope JKR puts him in Gryffindor (or antoher house) to avoid such stereotypes.<< CP (me): I think that it's believable considering that we're dealing with war here, and lives are on the line. It makes sense that the major players would be from the house known for courage. sachmet96: >>The points above are very good and I agree but there is one thing that I think might speak against the Slytherin theory. When Harry was in the pensieve he saw James and Sirius and they surely wore their school uniforms. Wouldn't Harry have noticed (and reacted) if they were form Slytherin? He might not have said anything if they were form any other house, but Slytherin would surely have been a shock for him?<< > > 4) Harry might have been sorted into Gryffindor or Slytherin. This > > makes more sense with one parent in each. > > Mm. Maybe. CP: I like the idea that Harry could somehow have a connection to both Gryffindor and Slytherin through his parents... In a post that I deleted by accident, someone brings up the fact that it could be considered proof that James was in Gryffindor based on the comparison Harry makes between James and Ron when Ron rumples his hair. Someone else said this could be a red herring, that Houses are not always clear based on uniforms... What do I know, but this moment does not *feel* like a red herring, like Harry could be mistaken. There is one moment where Harry is wondering about a possible connection to Salazar Slytherin in COS and his mind automatically leaps to not knowing much about his father's side of the family, as discussion of his wizard side of the family is forbidden (COS, US paperback, p. 250) at the Dursleys'. *This* feels like a red herring, and made me think instantly that JK Rowling may have intentionally planted the idea of the Slytherin being on his dad's side when it could be on Lily's from way back. darryl_oneill wrote: > > 2) The behavior of MWPP especially in book 5 seems much more like > > Draco than anyone in Gryffindor. Del wrote: > I heartily agree ! Harry's not terribly nice with Draco, but at least > he doesn't go out of his way to provoke him. Draco does it, though. > Just like James and Sirius did it with Severus. Slytherin way of life. sachmet96: >>Not neseccarily only Slytherin. It depends on the point of view. The Weasley twins and other Gryffindors have shown that Gryffindors can also be extremely provoking.<< CP: It's probably obvious that I think that MWPP were all Gryffindors. If a parallel must be drawn between James/Severus and Harry/Draco, I think that a generational reversal (The Slytherin being picked on, while the Gryffindor is the bully) is more interesting (like what sachmet96 said above). Besides, James and Sirius are definitely torturing Snape, but when Snape strikes back, whatever he hits James with actually makes Potter bleed. That's pretty extreme. Also, I'm not sure exactly how the Pensieve works. Snape's worst memory (as has been mentioned, I'm sure) could be influenced by Snape's bias. darryl_oneill and dell: > > 3) Hagrid said that every bad wizard was from Slytherin at a time > > when he thought that Sirius was an evil wizard > > That one has always bothered me !! Sirius is supposed to be the > ultimate traitor, he's supposed to be the one and only reason James > and Lily were killed and Harry ended up as an orphan. So surely > Hagrid could not have forgotten about him when he talked to Harry > about the different Houses ? CP: This brings up a question about how someone like Peter Pettigrew (or even Percy Weasley?) may have been sorted into Gryffindor. He seems to exemplify the coward in this series. Maybe the Sorting Hat, as we saw in OoP, has a more prophetic nature in mystery cases such as these. Maybe PP will redeem himself, sacrifice himself or something - We'll probably have to wait until Bk. 7 to find out why Harry might me thankful that he spared his life (as DD suggested in PoA). > > 5) There have been 5 books and J.K. has been very silent about what > > houses they were in. > > Now THAT is the MAIN clue as far as I'm concerned. CP: This is one of the two reasons that I'm open to the possibility that James may not have been in Gryffindor. The other one is that he and Lily were Head Boy and Girl. They were the same year (they were both taking OWLs); wouldn't it be atypical for Head Boy and Girl to be in the same house? Since I don't know how this system works, I would also think that it would be atypical for James to become Head Boy after not being a Prefect (wouldn't Sirius have mentioned it if James became a prefect in 6th year in OoP US Ch.9?) Do we know if Lily was a prefect? If they were in the same house and were not prefects first they must have been pretty exceptional to get be Head Boy and Girl. > > 7) Lily and James refer to each other by their last names. If they > > were both in Gryffindor together for 5 years then why so distant. > > Everyone in Gryffindor always call each other by their first names. > > Ah-ah. Good one ! Dean and Seamus are Dean and Seamus, but Draco is > Malfoy (and Crabbe and Goyle). CP: Doesn't Malfoy call Crabbe and Goyle "Crabbe and Goyle"? I think that James and Lily call each other by their last names because the fake fomality and the forced distance is like flirting - they have crushes on one another. 3 more reasons why I think MWPP were in Gryffindor: 1) In the Three Broomsticks in PoA, McGonagall seems to have a certain affection for James and Sirius (maybe I was reading something into it) and she would have been the Gryffindor head-of-house. 2) since we seem determined that Snape and James were in different houses, Snape was definitely in Slytherin. 3) There's a trend of Slytherin/Gryffindor rivalry that dates back to the founders (CoS) CP __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From furkin1712 at aol.com Fri Oct 24 01:23:09 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:23:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) Message-ID: <61.36b9352a.2cc9d8fd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83459 In a message dated 10/23/2003 4:37:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, darryl_oneill at yahoo.ca writes: > Q.Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? > A.Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). > > 2) > Q. What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? > Was it seeker like Harry, or something different? > A.) James was Chaser. Darryl (above snip) It is however, canon that James was a seeker. He is shown as playing a snitch that he "nicked" from the quidditch ball trunk and even sketched a snitch on his test before tracing lily's initials. This interview may be a fraud, they do exist. Also, my books have grown legs and walked away, but I could swear on my grandmother's grave that there is a reference to James being a seeker when Harry's made a seeker. I could be getting it confused with the movie though. And also, if James was in Slytherin, Hagrid would've mentioned it. He describes James and Lily as the nicest people he'd known and then described Slytherin as the house that produced the worst kind of people, I believe the quote is something like "no one that ever went bad wasn't in Slytherin" Blue Eyes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gretchen.bakies at prodigy.net Fri Oct 24 03:20:21 2003 From: gretchen.bakies at prodigy.net (GRETCHEN BAKIES) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore and the Prophesy Message-ID: <20031024032021.87497.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83460 I was reading GOF and noticed something that doesn?t make sense after OOP and I haven?t noticed any posts on this idea. On page 699 of the US ed. Dumbledore said : ?You have shown bravery beyond anything I could have expected of you tonight, Harry. You have shown bravery equal to those who died fighting Voldemort at the height of his powers. You have shouldered a grown wizard?s burden and found yourself equal to it ? **and you have now given us all we have a right to expect.** (** my emphasis). Now I know in OOP Dumbledore said he didn?t want to tell Harry about the Prophesy after all he?d gone through that night, but isn?t that going a bit far when clearly Dumbledore *does* expect more from Harry in the fight against Voldemort.? It?s one thing not to tell Harry about his role that the Prophesy implies, but its another thing to outright say, ?okay, you?re part of the fight is over and we don?t want you to do anymore?. I?m not part of the Manipulative!Dumbledore team, but this seems a bit strange. Any opinions? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Oct 24 06:58:28 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:58:28 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83461 Intresting views and info from all. :) I just had to state that while there hasn't been much about sexual activity in the books, we do know that the steps to the girl's dorm won't allow boys in there, but girls are allowed in the boy's dorm. We did see Snape looking in odd places for snogging couples, so it happens. :) However, it's a bit outdated to think that nothing is going on there. With all those hormones raging, things are happening. Regardless as to the school being single sex or co-ed, things go on. Look at the drapes on the boy's beds. Privacy? To do *what*? :) While I agree we won't see a scene of Ron getting caught with playwizard in his bed or in the loo, be assured that he's doing just that. :) If that squicks you, don't think about it. Jeff From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Oct 24 07:53:16 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:53:16 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83462 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: > > > > > Intresting views and info from all. :) I just had to state > that while there hasn't been much about sexual activity in the books, > we do know that the steps to the girl's dorm won't allow boys in > there, but girls are allowed in the boy's dorm. We did see Snape > looking in odd places for snogging couples, so it happens. :) > However, it's a bit outdated to think that nothing is going on there. > With all those hormones raging, things are happening. Regardless as > to the school being single sex or co-ed, things go on. Look at the > drapes on the boy's beds. Privacy? To do *what*? :) While I agree we > won't see a scene of Ron getting caught with playwizard in his bed or > in the loo, be assured that he's doing just that. :) If that squicks > you, don't think about it. > > > > Jeff If some of the fanfics are anything to go by, it's a miracle anyone has time for lessons or quidditch. ;-) June From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 08:31:34 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:31:34 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83463 "Jen Reese" wrote: > Unless Dumbledore wanted a Ministry offical at Hogwarts. > > Sure, it could be a plot device, to bring in Umbridge (or any MOM > representative) to depict the tensions between Hogwarts and the MOM > (i.e., Dumbledore and Fudge). > > There could be more, though. It's a good idea to know your *enemy* > and the MOM is definitely an enemy to the Order in OOTP. Surely > Dumbledore, who knows the castle so well and understands the > protections and enchantments in place, wouldn't have any trouble > getting confidential MOM information from a Ministry official > housed in his territory. Or maybe DD wanted the students to know what the Ministry was really like ? At the end of GOF, he knows the Ministry is going to fight him and Harry's tale, and he's probably not surprised to see all the attacks in the Daily Prophet. So he knows that when the kids come back, most of them will have been brainwashed and lectured into thinking that DD is barmy and Harry delusional, and that the Ministry knows better. What better way, then, to help the kids see the truth, but to let a Ministry official come to Hogwarts, turn into a tyrant, make herself an enemy to all students, and proove how blind the Ministry is to things that are going on ? Umbridge did DD a huge service, by pushing most students to give their trust to him rather than to the Ministry. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 09:35:21 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:35:21 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: <20031024001543.57371.qmail@web11905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83464 Christie Nixon wrote: > This brings up a question about how someone like Peter > Pettigrew (or even Percy Weasley?) may have been > sorted into Gryffindor. Agreed. Peter is neither courageous, nor very smart, nor very loyal. But he's very ambitious for sure, always trying to get in the biggest bully's favours. His place was in Slytherin. > Doesn't Malfoy call Crabbe and Goyle "Crabbe and > Goyle"? Yes he does, but I believe it's for a different reason. I think he's just reproducing his father's behaviour towards C&G senior. I see it as a kind of master-servant relationship. > I think that James and Lily call each other by > their last names because the fake fomality and the > forced distance is like flirting - they have crushes > on one another. That doesn't work for me. Imagine that Harry and Hermione (or Lavender or Parvati) started getting romantically interested in each other : would they suddenly revert from calling each other by their first names to start using their last names ?? No way. Moreover, we do know of someone who's calling Hermione by her last name... Draco Malfoy. Should we then assume that he's secretly in love with her ? > 3 more reasons why I think MWPP were in Gryffindor: > 1) In the Three Broomsticks in PoA, McGonagall seems > to have a certain affection for James and Sirius > (maybe I was reading something into it) and she would > have been the Gryffindor head-of-house. Good point. Though that affection could have come from their outstanding talent in Transfiguration. Just like we can suspect that Sprout has affection for Neville because of his love for botanical matters, even though he's not in her House. > 2) since we seem determined that Snape and James were > in different houses, Snape was definitely in > Slytherin. I for one am NOT determined that Snape and James were in different Houses. In fact, considering all the interaction they seem to have, I think it more likely that they were in the same House. > 3) There's a trend of Slytherin/Gryffindor rivalry > that dates back to the founders (CoS) Yes, but it was exacerbated by the First War so it wasn't necessarily that strong when MWPP and Snape started school. Moreover, if MWPP and Snape were the only boys in their year in Slytherin, it helps explain why Snape was a loner, why he didn't manage to create his own court, why he had to associate with older Slytherins : because James "stole" all the other guys in the class. It would also explain why James, Sirius and Remus took Peter with them : Snape probably rejected a weakling like him, so they took pity on him and took him in instead of leaving him all alone. A bit like HRH taking in Neville sometimes. Del From hermowninny719 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 05:37:13 2003 From: hermowninny719 at yahoo.com (hermowninny719) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:37:13 -0000 Subject: Convention,Clues,andCats In-Reply-To: <20031022141449.34408.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Granny Goodwitch wrote: > > 22Oct03 > > Hello everyone, > > After reading the notices of the upcoming HP convention and the planned birthday party for Harry on 31July, I realized that our hero is a Leo, a cat! This has started me to think again about all the references to cats and cat clues in canon: > > 1) Harry's a Leo. > > 2) He grows up on Privet Drive next door to Mrs Figg, a squib and cat lover and all of her cats. > > 3) One of the earliest scenes in the series is Professor McGonnagall's appearance in her cat form (Book 1) on Privet Drive. > > 4) Harry is sorted into Gryffindor. More importantly the Sorting Hat wants to put him in Slytherin, but he insists on Gryffindor, the lion. > > 5) Hermione is accidently turned into a cat by the Ployjuice Potion (Book 2). Remember a recent posting on the list stated that this was possibly the scene that JKR wouldn't allow to be edited out? > > 6) Crookshanks' joining the HRH trio, and obvious affection for Harry. > > 7) Physical similarities between Crookshanks and Mundungus, who was given the task to watch over Harry(Book5) > > 8) Harry's vision of Hermione covered in fur during the Occumency lesson, yes, this was strange > > Is that all, now? The first thing that comes to mind is that cats kill snakes. They're sorely missing in Voldy's crowd. Also, throughout canon, cats have an affinity for squibs (Figg and Filch) and Muggle-borns (Hermione, and Harry). McGonnagall is the obvious exception, but some think that maybe she's Muggle-born. My theory is that cats will somehow play an important role in the final war against the DE's. What this could be can't imagine. So come on, Dears, let's have a little discussion and TBAY. > > Granny Goodwitch > I had also noticed many cat references, but had dismissed it simply because cats are so closely associated with witchcraft. Then this evening, while looking for something else, I stumbled across this quote quite by accident. The following is from an on- line interview at scholastic.com with JKR on October 16, 2000... Q. Is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than first meets the eye? (i.e. Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall as a cat, etc.) A. Ooooo, another good question. Let's see what I can tell you without giving anything away....erm....no, can't do it, sorry. To me that makes it pretty clear that cats will play an important role. "HOW" is the big question. Ideas anyone? From adelaney at tulane.edu Fri Oct 24 07:11:45 2003 From: adelaney at tulane.edu (AlLeY kAt) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:11:45 -0000 Subject: The subject of dementors... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83466 I'm new so I'm not even sure if this has been brought up before, but after reading (and re-reading several times each) books 1-5, I can't find a reference to where dementors come from... Perhaps a dementor is created upon the administration of he "kiss." as in, the person who is kissed becomes a dementor once his soul is sucked out. This leads to the obvious question, where did the first dementor come from? Well, perhaps whomever was Voldemort's predecessor (since he is the worst in over a century, there must have been someone before him) and he became the first dementor upon his defeat. Because I am sure that, like Voldemort, he had made special precautions to defeat death. When he was defeated, he could not be killed, but his soul left him - creating the first dementor... Just a thought... anybody out there have any other ideas? From timothy.collinson at solent.ac.uk Fri Oct 24 08:04:18 2003 From: timothy.collinson at solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:04:18 +0100 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83467 "Arya" wrote: >I do find it unlikely that in a boarding school such as Hogwarts, that they >would be allowed to wear such things as jeans or other "muggle" like *casual* >clothing as a part of their uniforms. It does seem odd. > I also would find it hard to believe that >there isn't any distiguishing article they wear to denote House--how else >could Harry see a "group of Hufflepuffs" of a "Slytherin boy he didn't know the >name of". This isn't too hard to explain. The boarding school I referred to earlier had 7 houses and some 220 pupils. It was just possible in your middle years to know nearly everyone. However, it was also possible (sometimes much easier) to recognize a group or individual that you didn't know the name of as coming from a particular house simply by association or by where they were (say on the paths between houses, where they were sitting in chapel/dining room, etc.) This is not only entirely feasible, for me it's entirely believable based on experience. House ties identified us on weekdays but on Sundays we'd wear a school tie and other occasions we wouldn't have this sign, but you'd still know what houses people belonged to. >I do like the idea of the crests on the robes, but, it is important to remember >that we don't have evidence that they are there. Quite agree that "movie contamination" as you call it should be avoided! Well spotted. tc From FinduilasMyDarkdream at lycos.de Thu Oct 23 11:56:31 2003 From: FinduilasMyDarkdream at lycos.de (finduilasmydarkdreamer) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:56:31 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83468 Hi! Yesterday I followed an interesting thread in this discussion and stated my opinion about it. But I obviously didn't refer to a specific paragraph so I was kindly asked to do so. I see the point in it and here is my addition at the top (and what I posted yesterday, too). : ) I refer to - what I call "aforementioned thoughts" - evil sushi's posting from October 21st. There augustinapeach was quoted writing, "Even through that purple turban, he [Voldemort] was bound to have heard the conversation. Then in GoF, it's likely Crouch Jr., posing as Moody, overheard sensitive information", and evil sushi hinted the Occlumency might be the reason for Snape having managed to get away with it until now. These are some of the thoughts I had myself and when I read them here I thought I could add a piece to it. In the first place I wonder which turn of fate Snape is going to face should Voldemort really have inside informations from Kreacher. Responding to augustinapeach & co I write:- 'Now this is an interestig point! *flutters down onto her Master's shoulder, becoming one with his silky black hair* I thought about this quite a lot and since OotP I wonder, apart from the aforementioned thoughts, what Kreacher the evil little House- Elf did when Sirius told him to go. Did he report to Voldemort classified information about the Order? Its members and perhaps even parts of their plans...??!? Even though a House-Elf has to be 'loyal' to his family, when there are two different masters he serves, isn't there the possibility that he has to spill out everything valuable? Even if it weren't so, there'd still be the possibility to punish himself afterwards (as mentioned in the book). Dobby did it, too, so Kreacher's evil nature could just as likely have made him turn from Sirius once and for all.(Oh how I hate that stinking elf for luring Sirius into such a trap!) I wonder who it is Kreacher called his 'mistress'. Could it be Narcissa Malfoy, Sirius's relative and thus also part of the family Kreacher has to serve? And was 'she' really 'upstairs'? What do you think? SnapesRaven alias FinduilasMyDarkDreamer' From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 10:22:07 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:22:07 -0000 Subject: Convention,Clues,andCats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermowninny719" wrote: > Then this evening, while looking for something else, I stumbled > across this quote quite by accident. The following is from an on- > line interview at scholastic.com with JKR on October 16, 2000... > > Q. Is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than > first meets the eye? (i.e. Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. > McGonagall as a cat, etc.) > A. Ooooo, another good question. Let's see what I can tell you > without giving anything away....erm....no, can't do it, sorry. > > To me that makes it pretty clear that cats will play an important > role. "HOW" is the big question. Ideas anyone? One could interpret JKR's remarks that way, but when it comes to JKR's interviews, I tend to take what she says with a grain of salt. She doesn't want to give away anything. I think she enjoys misdirecting our perceptions by leading us down the garden path. I do the same thing to my kids when they want to know something that I want to surprise them with. I tend to hint that something is really important so they foucs their thoughts in that direction instead of letting them speculate on something truly important and figure it all out. The Potterverse is JKR's world to do with as she pleases. As much as I want to see things work out the way my imagination is leading things, I know that I am most likely wrong about many things. This is also true about what we do know. JKR has the right to change things she has already decided upon. I cannot wait to see what she has in store for us. D - who wishes she were as perceptive and as logical as Holmes so she could figure it all out! From amani at charter.net Fri Oct 24 10:44:59 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:44:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) References: Message-ID: <002d01c39a1b$df847420$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83470 Christie Nixon wrote: > I think that James and Lily call each other by > their last names because the fake fomality and the > forced distance is like flirting - they have crushes > on one another. Del: That doesn't work for me. Imagine that Harry and Hermione (or Lavender or Parvati) started getting romantically interested in each other : would they suddenly revert from calling each other by their first names to start using their last names ?? No way. Moreover, we do know of someone who's calling Hermione by her last name... Draco Malfoy. Should we then assume that he's secretly in love with her ? Taryn: It wasn't said that EVERYONE in love would do that. But it certainly occurs as a form of flirting. Harry and Hermione are obviously a different case--they've been best friends. Then again, I find it really hard to swallow that Lily likes James at the time. Then again, girls of that age have this stupid tendancy to like the jerks. I just don't get it. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amani at charter.net Fri Oct 24 10:41:11 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:41:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) References: <61.36b9352a.2cc9d8fd@aol.com> Message-ID: <001d01c39a1b$57b0b9a0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83471 Darryl: > Q.Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? > A.Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). > > 2) > Q. What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? > Was it seeker like Harry, or something different? > A.) James was Chaser. Blue Eyes: It is however, canon that James was a seeker. He is shown as playing a snitch that he "nicked" from the quidditch ball trunk and even sketched a snitch on his test before tracing lily's initials. This interview may be a fraud, they do exist. Also, my books have grown legs and walked away, but I could swear on my grandmother's grave that there is a reference to James being a seeker when Harry's made a seeker. I could be getting it confused with the movie though. Taryn: That's not proof that he was a seeker. So he played with the Snitch. He was showing off his reflexes. It certainly wouldn't have worked with a quaffle. :P He's a Quidditch player, and the Snitch is the best thing to show off reflexes and the prettiest to draw. That is movie contamination, though. It's only in the PS movie that Hermione takes Harry to see his dad's name on the Quidditch trophy, says it's in his blood, blah blah blah. It seems hard to believe that QuickQuotes over at the Leaky Cauldron would be hosting a fradulent interview. For referece, the quotes are from an online chat at Scholastic.com on October 16, 2000. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From FilkMavenGB at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 10:59:10 2003 From: FilkMavenGB at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:59:10 -0400 Subject: (FILK) Journalist! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83472 Journalist! (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Dentist!_ from the musical _Little Shop Of Horrors_) Midi is here: http://addagirl.com/littleshop.htm Dedicated to Arcum, Potter-Freak, LSoH Fan and Fellow Filker who gave me inspiration and sent this little tid-bit of information: According to IMDB.com, Pam Ferris will be playing Aunt Marge in PoA. Among her other credits, she was briefly seen in the movie version of Little Shop of Horrors during "Dentist!", namely as Orin's mother (in the photograph)! And to CMC for helping me with the end bit...thanks a bunch! Rita Skeeter (Alicia, Katie, Angelina) : When I was younger and still attending school There were certain things that I liked to do Always on the trail for hearing gossip I'd tattle tale on what they let slip And people liked to hear me talk when I did So then I decided (What you decide?) I thought, "You know, I think I will Try to fulfill my desires by using my quill." I'm a journalist! (She's a journalist) I have a talent for stretching the truth (Truth) I'm a journalist (She's a journalist) I'm writing slander without any proof (How uncouth!) Who'd want a job at the Ministry? And teaching at Hogwarts? No way! I know how to enlist The tricks of my trade Alicia: There she is, girls, the leader of the hacks Katie: Watch her suck on that quill! Oh, my stars! Angelina: She's a writer and she'll never ever be any good All Three: Miss Rita Skeeter has taken this too far This is false! That's a lie! Rita Skeeter: Aw, who cares? Tell me more, don't be shy! I'm a journalist (Gulpin' gargoyles!) And it's the dirt which makes news papers sell I'm a journalist (Causing turmoil!) Which is something which I do oh so well! When I air out your dirty laundry (She'll do it) I'll give a new meaning to "paparazzi" (Journalist!) And yes, I know what my critics all say (They say) Although, I'm told that I write only of shit I know, *I* know that my readers all love it 'Cause I'm a journalist With great exposes (:: Skeeter takes her quill and approaches Alicia, Katie and Angelina ::) Tell me! (No!) Tell ME! (NOOOOO!) (:: to audience ::) Damn it! -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Fretting that your Hotmail account may expire because you forgot to sign in enough? Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From gromm at cards.lanck.net Fri Oct 24 11:33:40 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:33:40 +0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kneazles Oriental? References: Message-ID: <001a01c39a22$ad65c780$1041983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 83473 > But you can find huge ginger tom cats with bottlebrush tails in the > Muggle UK - the British cat is often quite large, and ginger toms > are common. So Crookshanks may be a British moggy/Kneazle cross. Well, this was what I originally thought, but this Maine Coon stuff confused me. Such toms of rugged appearance are common here in Russia, too, and I always thought Crookshanks was a result of an affair between a full Kneazle and a common tom. A full Kneazle I have always envisioned as something like my Trad Siamese cat, in character and intelligence too. Maria. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Oct 24 12:57:47 2003 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:57:47 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Please Send OT Posts to OTChatter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83474 Howdy, all! Sorry to be late with this, but I'm trying to catch up on the lists. I have a couple of quick questions about this ADMIN . . . Debbie Elf wrote: >We require that posts to the main list make a canon point and discuss >the words or works of JKR. > For further information, check out our posting guidelines at > www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin/ I'm confused about a couple of things. First, the posting guidelines don't talk about making a "canon point" at all. Is that different from the directive in the posting guidelines that say that the main list is for "book-related discussion only"? Does the "canon point" requirement mean you have to be advocating something (that is, making a point), or is it enough just to be talking about something related to books? And does "book-related discussion only" allow discussion of JKR interviews, or should those take place on one of the other lists? Also, I'm confused about whether a post can contain *any* OT material if it discusses the books. The posting guidelines and this recent ADMIN seem to suggest that a post with OT material should be posted on OTC only, but I might be reading it wrong. Sorry to ask these questions, but there have been a lot of changes to the rules lately, and I'm not sure whether something important flew by me. Cindy -- who has never received a howler and who is hoping not to start now! :-D From mookie1552 at aol.com Fri Oct 24 00:43:05 2003 From: mookie1552 at aol.com (Jennifer) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:43:05 -0000 Subject: how book 7 will end Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83475 Hmmm, very interesting things, especially the theory that when LV is destroyed, all his evil is also and it all just becomes a very bad dream. I think if that would happen, I don't think I would be able to keep it together and be a blubbering idiot. But personally, I do not think that JKR would do that, she's not that nice. HP is a dark book, Harry is a doomed character so I don't think it will be a happy ending. What I think will happen, I am not completely sure, but what I do believe that Sirius is not through yet. I do not believe that he is really dead (it maybe just is denial), but I don't believe it in the same way as I did Cedric dying. It just was too easy, JKR almost made it seem him falling through the doorway was no big deal. I thought it was going to be much more powerful. So getting back to the topic at hand, what I think will happen is the war to end all wars, I believe that muggles may get involved also because LV is after them too. I think that there may be assassinations at the MoM and that Percy maybe behind it. I think that Percy is under the imperius curse either for Fudge or LV himself as an inside job. It's going to be the coo of the century. With the lack of the MoM the wizarding and muggle world will become very vulnerable. I think that Dumbledore will get killed in the final battle by LV. It will be heroic, to save someone or to pass powers onto another; but not until he let's Harry know how powerful he is and how to use it. I invision it similar to the death of Obi Wan in Star Wars, sudden but beautiful. Dumbledore knows how Harry defeated LV 22 years ago, I'm sure of it. Harry will be more powerful than Dumbledore and Harry will mature into his powers by the end of the 7th book, maybe recieving some powers from Dumbledore himself. He will use those powers to destroy LV and save the world and Hermione (not Ginny) will be at his side. From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 23 12:45:48 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:45:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) References: Message-ID: <003601c39963$96c7e2c0$9a87aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83476 > "one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not > Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, > maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does > end up staying at Hogwarts, but ----" The Courtesy 12 October 1999 > (From Quick quotes) > > Ali *ahem* Iggy here: I will re-post a letter that was a reply to one of the first posts in this thread, but got no notice... Let's try again here. Iggy here: I wonder why nobody's mentioned the idea that, as much of a deal is made over his flying ability and talent as a seeker, he may be picked up my a major British quidditch team to play for them... An entirely likely possibility, don't you think? (And, if she decides to follow Harry after Hogwarts, she can also add in adventures he ends up on in various cities in which the team plays. Much like the kids in Scooby Doo find mysteries wherever they go... picnics, the mall, spooky old deserted mansions in the middle of a supposedly haunted swamp, the bathroom at the Motel 6... you know.. everyday places.) Iggy McSnurd From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 13:14:51 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:14:51 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: <002d01c39a1b$df847420$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Taryn Kimel" wrote: > Christie Nixon wrote: > > I think that James and Lily call each other by > > their last names because the fake fomality and the > > forced distance is like flirting - they have crushes > > on one another. > > Del: > That doesn't work for me. Imagine that Harry and Hermione (or > Lavender or Parvati) started getting romantically interested in > each other : would they suddenly revert from calling each other by > their first names to start using their last names ?? No way. > Moreover, we do know of someone who's calling Hermione by her last > name... Draco Malfoy. Should we then assume that he's secretly in > love with her ? > > Taryn: > It wasn't said that EVERYONE in love would do that. But it > certainly occurs as a form of flirting. Harry and Hermione are > obviously a different case--they've been best friends. That's why I was substituting Hermione's name with Lavender or Parvati. For that matter, I could also have proposed the full list of Harry or Ron or Neville or Dean or Seamus :-) All the guys in Harry's year are more or less friends with all the girls in their year. What I meant is that I don't see how 2 youngsters that had been calling each other by their first names for several years could suddenly start using each other's last names, just because they start getting romantically interested ! In fact, if it's only a start, then doing that would draw everyone's attention to what they are doing, hence to why they are doing it, so that everyone would know about their budding feelings, which would most probably be the last thing they would want !! As a matter of fact, you'll notice that Cho Chang became more and more "just" Cho as Harry was getting closer and closer to her. Now *that* is according to what I know : when 2 people that formerly were on a last name basis start using first names, then something romantic is often in the air (or at least they've become friends). On the contrary, when 2 former friends or lovers start using last names, that usually means something broke. So I keep to what I said : I don't think Lily and James were in the same House, because they wouldn't call each other by their last names. > Then again, I find it really hard to swallow that Lily likes James > at the time. Then again, girls of that age have this stupid > tendancy to like the jerks. I just don't get it. LOL ! Yep, that's one thing that mystified my husband when he was a teenager : why ever do girls prefer jerks ??? Del From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 14:00:58 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:00:58 -0000 Subject: Canon supporting KITTENS & RAINBOWS (little bit of TBAY) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031024151910.00a222f0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > > Tanya here > > That theory ties in neatly. But I have one major question. While > LV in the end would feel love and etc. How many from the WW would > then leave him in peace and be friends? Also, who that was left > from his DE followers would take the change calmly. I can just > imagine them hunting him down, and perhaps killing him, then both > would be dead. That is, if I imagine this theory right, and LV > then has Harry's influence, and becomes a bit like him, changing > his motives etc due to the part of him being in Harry. > > Tanya I would expect that Voldemort is killed right after fulfilling the prophecy. Either by Neville or Wormtail. Being truly alive he can after all finally be killed. But it's possible Voldemort does survive the end of book 7. There's at least no canon saying that he doesn't. I can't see Voldemort becoming all nice and friendly though. Feeling love might make him human again, it might even qualify him as being alive, I doubt it will completely change his personality. -Maus From lmbolland at earthlink.net Fri Oct 24 14:11:25 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:11:25 -0000 Subject: Tonks - the name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83479 wrote: > > > > I love the idea of Tonks being some other character without the > > reader knowing it. Lauri: I agree, but her name still has me puzzled. According to the catholic "lives of the saints" http://www.ocrb.org/livesofsaints.html "The Holy Virgin Martyrs Menodora, Metrodora, and Nymphodora, like the Holy Virgins Faith, Hope, and Love, faced the brutality of a government wholly opposed to the one true God. In their contest we benefit, seeing in their victory an icon of meekness and truth which strengthens our own souls." *Could* JKR be borrowing from religious tradition here? Would Nymphodora be "love"? Would that have anything to do with the greater plotline of Love (being the thing which the MOM is studying and the thing which the dark lord has not)? Or would that mean she is "love" to one of the characters? (Shippers?) Or that she's going to meet a sticky end, like her namesake? JKR doesn't choose names lightly, each name is meant to show us something of the character. Or, could JKR just have chosen an extremely frilly/silly name for Tonks to make her more interesting? Lauri From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Oct 24 14:13:18 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:13:18 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > If Snape left Potions, then Umbridge would have taught that class by > getting the class to read from chapter one ..."-and don't bother > about bringing those cauldrons thingys," she'd say. "The smell of > potions brewing makes me come out in hives, so we will just read." > > Any good wizard or witch trusted by DD for DADA would be busy in the > Order. Jen: Yes, I was scanning the possible options for an alternative DADA and the people who could possibly qualify for the job, i.e. Charlie, Bill, Tonks, etc. would not want to be overtly connected to Dumbledore in OOTP. Not because any of those people would care what the Ministry thinks, but because Fudge might view any new apointee as part of the army DD is amassing: "...that's exactly what he's afraid Dumbledore's doing---forming his own private army..." (OOTP, US, chap. 14, p. 303. Hiring one of the Weaslys or a person away from the Ministry would probably be enough for Fudge to close Hogwarts! (LOL, it suddenly strikes me as very funny that Fudge worries so much about this when the Order has been around for years. Could one individual be so clueless--doesn't he have any good spies?) Anyway, back to the business at hand. I realized the proclamation was written on August 30th, the day before school starts, so there would be little time for DD to rearrange the teachers he has or look for another Potions master, if that's what he decided to do. That begs the question, what was he planning to do come Sept. 1st? Teach DADA himself ;)? Now *that* would be an interesting class. Now Del: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83463 > Or maybe DD wanted the students to know what the Ministry was >really like ? >Umbridge did DD a huge service, by pushing most students to give >their trust to him rather than to the Ministry. Jen: If DD *did* want a Ministry official at Hogwarts, either for spying purposes or for the reason Del mentions above, I don't think even he realized how well Umbridge would execute the plan for him! Sirius seemed to know little about Umbridge in the chapter "Percy and Padfoot", so I suspect DD and the Order didn't know exactly who the Ministry would appoint to take over the DADA position. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 24 14:43:33 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:43:33 -0000 Subject: The subject of dementors... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83481 --- "AlLeY kAt" wrote: (snipped) > I can't find a reference to where dementors come from... > This leads to the obvious question, where did the first > dementor come from? ... > Just a thought... anybody out there have any other ideas? "Fantastic Beasts and Where to find them" gives some clues to the origin of Dementors if you read between the lines. (No, I don't mean Ron's comments) Under the Acromantula, it says that it "... is believed to be wizard- bred, possibly intended to guard wizard dwellings or treasure, as is often the case with magically created monsters." Then in the foot note, it says, "Beasts capable of human speech are rarely self-taught; ... The Ban on Experimental Breeding did not come into effect until this century, ... So this suggests dementors, intellegent and understanding spoken directions (otherwise Fudge couldn't instruct them), would have been wizard-bred. But bred from what? Look at the Lethifold entry. It is a cloak-like tropical creature that glides along the ground at night. It kills by clamping itself over its victom's mouth so that he can't breath. It prefers victoms asleep in bed. The only known defence against a Lethifold is a Patronus Charm while thinking happy thoughts. The 1st Lethifold was identified in the late 1700s. It has similarities to the Dementor if crossed with a humanoid (vampire, maybe?). One main magical difference is the hopelessness and one's worst memories being relived. The breeding Ban suggests dementors were bred last century. - or imported from countries where, like flying carpet rules, the law is not the same as the UK Wizard World. Lethifolds, being tropical creatures, may have been developed as recently as Grindelwald or his predecessor's time. ~aussie~ From grannybat at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 15:02:39 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:02:39 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83482 Caipora considered: > I'm fairly sure one of Rowling's sources is Kipling's "Stalky & Co". Set in a boarding school, has a Trio, etc. > > Kipling was of course Victorian. Even so, his meaning is clear. > Here's a dialog between the Head and the Chaplain: > > `We-ell. I should say that that was the one tendency we had not > developed. Setting aside we haven't even a curtain in a dormitory, > let alone a lock to any form-room door?there has to be tradition in > these things.' > > `So I believe. So, indeed, one knows. And?'tisn't as if I ever > preached on personal purity either.' > --- Uh, it's not clear to me. (I'm not sure whether this is because I speak American English as opposed to The King's English, or if I'm just not as well-versed in the subtlety of Victorian euphemism.) I assume they're talking about either masturbation or homosexuality-- and I deduce that only because of the context of this thread. > I wouldn't call Rowling entirely reticent. When Harry is in the > Prefect's Bath, Millicent peeks at him. ... If even a spirit > cannot withstand a bit of sexual curiosity, what can we assume of > flesh in the grip of adolescent hormones? One would assume so, yes. But Rowling seems terribly reluctant to explore the practical, physical issues of Harry's puberty except in deeply cloaked metaphor and Jungian symbolism. (The ghost is Moaning Myrtle, by the way.) > Recall too the mandrakes, and their marks of maturation: acne, wild > parties, and finally moving into each other's pots. Surely there > aren't two ways for an adult to read that Well, yes, but the mandrakes are bit players rather than main characters. And their ultimate destiny is to be sliced, diced, and pureed into a restorative draught; hardly an encouraging omen for teens interested in learning about sex. > Lastly, I recently read somewhere that at Eton, a boy who is caught > in bed with a girl is expelled. If he's caught in bed with a boy, > he's suspended. I'm not a Brit--I don't even play one on TV--but even clueless Yanks such as I have heard the jokes and cliches about the English universities existing to perpetuate ruling class of priveleged men who are a largely homosexual. Perhaps this is one of the reasons JKR prefers to address sex from an oblique angle; maybe she wants to direct her readers away from the stereotype? (Still, I can't help waiting for Malfoy to make some homophobic crack about Harry and Ron's friendship. Draco is hardly known for his subtlety. An insinuation like that would provoke an immediate fight with wands and fists, and Rowling is running out of believable ways to trigger a confrontation between the two. Since OOP Draco may have more reasons than ever to hate Harry, but The Boy Who Lived has much bigger flies to swat.) Grannybat From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Oct 24 15:07:35 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:07:35 +0100 Subject: Dobby revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83483 Kneasy hasn't managed to annoy anyone recently, so I've allowed my Machiavellian mind free rein over the past couple of days to see if I can rectify the omission. I have come up with an interesting slant (or at least I think it's interesting), but it lacks the truly outrageous sneakiness that really appeals. So, until my perverted mind can hatch something really disgraceful, this will have to do. Let us travel back through the mists of time to a better age, when the world was bright and young, we had hope in our hearts and anything was possible. 1998 in fact. CoS, chapter 1, the first meeting between Harry and Dobby. It all seems fairly standard - weird creature appears, imparts obscure warning, creates mayhem, departs again. Nice start to the book, puts the readers on their toes and sets up a pleasantly convoluted plot. Only in hindsight does it start to look a bit odd, particularly after reading OoP. Jump forward and look at Kreacher in OoP. He is unhappy with what is going on in the household. The current inhabitants are inimical to the family ethic but he is constrained from doing anything about it. All it takes is one ambiguous instruction ( or an instruction that can be misconstrued) and he's off. Winging his way to darling Bella (the closest family member), pouring out his woes and telling tales of what the filthy, disgusting traitors are up to. We have been told that House Elves are bound "...to serve one house, one family." So why did Dobby seek out Harry? Is Harry part of the extended family that is centred on the household that Dobby serves? According to the known rules that govern House Elves, he must be. Strangers are of no concern to a House Elf, only family. Additionally, it makes no sense for Dobby to have received instructions from Malfoy to warn Harry. Aged twelve he didn't have the notorious 'pest' factor he later becomes famous for. No one would suspect he could cock-up Tom Riddle and a Basilisk at that age. So why would Malfoy warn him off? I don't think he would, but Dobby might in the right circumstances; if family ties were involved, for instance. Note that Dobby doesn't seem to be concerned about what might happen to the rest - Ginny can die, Hermione, Colin and the others can be petrified, the Basilisk can rampage to its hearts content, just so long as *Harry* is safe. Dobby was not interested in preventing Tom Riddle from re-birth and all that that could mean, he was only concerned with keeping Harry out of it. Note also he will not betray Malfoy's dastardly plot in any way ( for Malfoy is family) except where it touches on Harry. Throughout the book runs the same thread - Harry must be removed from danger and bugger everyone else. The blinkered view of a dedicated and compulsive family retainer. Even after manumission Dobby still shows an interest in Harry's welfare, rather as Winky does with the Crouches - her family no longer, but habits of a lifetime are hard to break. A bit of devious thinking - that act that frees Dobby. The sock does not belong to Malfoy; he does not even touch it, only the diary. Why should a sock from a stranger have this significance? But if Harry is family then Dobby's cry of "Harry Potter set Dobby free!" has real significance, because unless he is family he can't possibly set Dobby free, only Malfoy can. And I don't believe unknowingly giving a sock from a stranger would do the trick. JKR has famously said that she nearly gave the game away in CoS. The 'why' of it all. Could this be part of it? A critical connection that was unsuspected, with the behaviour of Elves the linking clue through three books? So far, we know nothing about James' family, except they were rich and pureblood. Doesn't that seem odd? And doesn't James Potter seem a very odd sort of name for an old wizarding family? Unreal almost. Kneasy From o_caipora at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 15:17:50 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:17:50 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83484 "jeffl1965" wrote: > Look at the drapes on the boy's beds. Privacy? To do *what*? :) It's more a matter of heating. Castles, and even British country houses, are notoriously ill-heated. Bed curtains keep the heat in. That's what the hot-water-bottles are about, too. Though Kipling writes against the dangers of "even a curtain in a dorm" quoted by me somewhere above in thread, with link to to online full text. The best magical solution to heating problems is found in a short (175 words) Larry Niven story. I won't reproduce it here (for copyright rather than length reasons) but go to http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7695/JOKES.HTM's and look for "Air Conditioner". - Caipora From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Oct 24 15:29:06 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:29:06 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > > A bit of devious thinking - that act that frees Dobby. The sock does > not belong to Malfoy; he does not even touch it, only the diary. I'd better correct this before someone else does. He does touch it, yes. Sorry. Make that read "hardly touches it." Kneasy From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 16:16:20 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:16:20 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: A bit of devious thinking - that act that frees Dobby. The sock does not belong to Malfoy; he does not even touch it, only the diary. I'd better correct this before someone else does. He does touch it, yes. Sorry. Make that read "hardly touches it." Kneasy Inge: Actually Lucius doesn't even hand the sock over to Dobby - he just throws it aside and Dobby sort of catches it with the words: "Master has given Dobby a sock! Master gave it to Dobby!" I'd think it should take an actual presenting of a piece of clothes to an elf to set him/her/it free. From pennygbrooks at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 14:54:41 2003 From: pennygbrooks at yahoo.com (pennygbrooks) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:54:41 -0000 Subject: Odds and Ends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83487 As I typically only lurk, and then ponder the messages that everyone else posts, this post is unusual for me. However, as I don't think anyone else has posted anything on some ideas I've been formulating, and as I've been wondering about them for a while, here goes. What do you think about these ideas? 1) Snape is an animagus. He is unregistered, but Dumbledore is the only one who knows this. Therefore, he is able to sneak in and out of DE meetings and such. As LV is a great legilimens, Snape still has to be a good occlumens in order to keep his disguise when he's spying. From his appearance, I would think that he turns into either a hawk-type bird, or a bat. 2) Peter Pettigrew is going to be the 'Gollum' of the Harry Potter story. At the ultimate climax of Book 7, he will somehow (probably involuntarily, and somehow motivated by Harry) cause the destruction of LV, and Harry (like Frodo of the 'Ring' Books) will be in the thick of it. Harry will escape mortal peril by a whisper, and then Ron and/or Hermione and/or Neville will pull him out of the danger. 3) There is some meaning behind the Droobles gum wrappers that Neville's mother keeps giving him. I'm thinking that somehow, the DE's are tied up in the wizard candy industry. Maybe that's how they make all their money. I have a lot of other ideas, but that's enough for now. They may sound a little nutty, but maybe not as nutty as some of the ideas I've read on other posts <>. Thanks for reading, now let the parsing begin! :) From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Oct 24 14:08:06 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:08:06 -0000 Subject: Could Harry really be an Auror? (Was: Anyone else over PPD?) In-Reply-To: <003601c39963$96c7e2c0$9a87aec7@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83488 Ali: > > "one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not > > Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, > > maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does > > end up staying at Hogwarts, but ----" The Courtesy 12 October 1999 > > (From Quick quotes) > > Geoff: Noting that this was in 1999 and about two books back, t'would be nice if we found out that JKR had changed her mind. As somebody pointed out recently, Harry seems to have a lot going for him as a teacher. I still fervently want the guy to come out of this with something to hang on to. As a sideline, I sometimes wonder as we sit at our keyboards, discussing the last full stop and comma, or which "he" are we referring to, whether Jo Rowling is quietly lurking and having a little chuckle to herself "Won't they be surprised when they see what I /have/ done!" Just my suspicious mind..... :-) From pennygbrooks at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 15:39:29 2003 From: pennygbrooks at yahoo.com (pennygbrooks) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:39:29 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: >>Is Harry part of the extended family that is centred on the household that Dobby serves? According to the known rules that govern House Elves, he must be. Strangers are of no concern to a House Elf, only family. Additionally, it makes no sense for Dobby to have received instructions from Malfoy to warn Harry. Aged twelve he didn't have the notorious 'pest' factor he later becomes famous for. No one would suspect he could cock-up Tom Riddle and a Basilisk at that age. So why would Malfoy warn him off? I don't think he would, but Dobby might in the right circumstances; if family ties were involved, for instance.<< Interesting thought, but not one I necessarily can endorse. Firstly, it's obvious that Dobby is a highly unusual house elf, and so his reactions and behaviors are not what anyone might call 'typical' house elf behavior. Secondly, we know that house elves are a very old species. From comments made by characters (Hagrid: house elves have a powerful magic of their own) and by other items (the fountain in the MoM), I would guess that at one point 'once upon a time' these elves lived quite harmoniously with the other magical creatures, and probably were not servants at this time. Something happened in their past, and years of servitude and perhaps security have made them perpetual servants to the wizards. I think that maybe Dobby has some of the 'old' feeling in him, that makes him independent. And, I think that somewhere in Book 6 or 7, the elves will 'come to their senses' and drop the servant stuff (yay for Hermione), but also will aid in the fight against LV. >> JKR has famously said that she nearly gave the game away in CoS. The 'why' of it all. Could this be part of it? A critical connection that was unsuspected, with the behaviour of Elves the linking clue through three books? So far, we know nothing about James' family, except they were rich and pureblood. Doesn't that seem odd? And doesn't James Potter seem a very odd sort of name for an old wizarding family?<< I think that somehow Harry is related to LV (as has been speculated here many a time before, I'll warrant), but as of right now, I have nothing to go on, other than comments by Tom Riddle and others about how many similarities there are between Harry and LV. Of course, the way JKR writes, when it's revealed it'll be something that'll make us all slap our heads and say "D'oh! Of Course!" I'm leaning toward the idea that somehow the connection is through Lily's family (and somehow Aunt Petunia is tied in)...but there really isn't any canon yet to back this up. Ahhh, idle speculation. You gotta love it! Penny Bee From Lolatsukino at aol.com Fri Oct 24 17:28:24 2003 From: Lolatsukino at aol.com (Kelly) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:28:24 -0000 Subject: Thank Goodness for Snape's Essay Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83490 While re-reading OOTP, I noticed this interesting tidbit that Harry runs across on the subject of memory inhibiters while researching for Snape's essay: On page 383 US, Ch. 18: "Midnight came and went while Harry was reading and rereading a passage about scurvy-grass, lovage, and sneezewort..'These plantes are moste efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness..'" Could this be a nod by JK to get us thinking about what may or may not be going on at St. Mungos? Surely Harry reads about quite a lot of different potion ingredients throughout the year, so it seems interesting that JK chose this particular passage about memory disrupters for Harry to relay to the readers. Any connections to the wonderful SILK GOWNS theory are welcome. Kelly From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Thu Oct 23 13:03:35 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:03:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) References: Message-ID: <006401c39966$12e1aec0$9a87aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83491 "Jen Reese" wrote: (snipped) > > If Snape could teach DADA, why didn't DD move him over for > > the year and look for a temporary Potions teacher so that > > Umbridge wasn't appointed? Maybe I'm assuming too much to > > say another Potions Master is readily available. > > > > Unless Dumbledore wanted a Ministry offical at Hogwarts. > > > > Sure, it could be a plot device, to bring in Umbridge > > to depict the tensions between Hogwarts and the MOM > "Hagrid" : > If Snape left Potions, then Umbridge would have taught that class by > getting the class to read from chapter one ..."-and don't bother > about bringing those cauldrons thingys," she'd say. "The smell of > potions brewing makes me come out in hives, so we will just read." > > Any good wizard or witch trusted by DD for DADA would be busy in the > Order. The only exception was Sirius Black. He would have been great, > if not for the fact that every Auror and dementor in the country was > after him. Iggy here: You could also have the fact that AD really knows a lot about the nature of the Trio, and allowed Umbridge into the DADA position because he had a hunch that the Trio would create something like the DA, like they did... He's shown this tendency before... like giving Harry the knowledge, and the chance, to face Voldemort in PS/SS... like hinting about aid for those loyal to him in CoS, knowing Harry would go to face down the basilisk... that type of thing... It's definitely something AD would do... Just my two cantaurs worth Iggy McSnurd From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 17:59:44 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:59:44 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83492 Kneasy wrote: >So, until my perverted mind can hatch > something really disgraceful, this will have to do. Annemehr: Unfortunately, the most you have managed is "interesting." Oh, well, let's see what we can make of it! Kneasy: > 1998 in fact. CoS, chapter 1, the first meeting between Harry and Dobby. > > It all seems fairly standard - weird creature appears, imparts obscure > warning, creates mayhem, departs again. Nice start to the book, puts > the readers on their toes and sets up a pleasantly convoluted plot. > Only in hindsight does it start to look a bit odd, particularly after > reading OoP. > > Jump forward and look at Kreacher in OoP. > He is unhappy with what is going on in the household. The current > inhabitants are inimical to the family ethic but he is constrained > from doing anything about it. All it takes is one ambiguous instruction > ( or an instruction that can be misconstrued) and he's off. Winging his > way to darling [Narcissa] (the closest family member) Annemehr: [I took the liberty of correcting "Bella" to "Narcissa" assuming you merely had one of those brain hiccups we all get] Yes, but I'll note that on his return to Grimmauld Place, Kreacher does not punish himself; rather he is obviously happier than he had been before. So, he managed to do something he wanted (visit and aid the family member Narcissa) by following the *rules,* at least the letter of them, though violating the spirit of Sirius' known wishes. Kneasy: > > So why did Dobby seek out Harry? > > Is Harry part of the extended family that is centred on the household > that Dobby serves? > According to the known rules that govern House Elves, he must be. > Strangers are of no concern to a House Elf, only family. Additionally, > it makes no sense for Dobby to have received instructions from Malfoy > to warn Harry. Aged twelve he didn't have the notorious 'pest' factor > he later becomes famous for. No one would suspect he could cock-up Tom > Riddle and a Basilisk at that age. So why would Malfoy warn him off? I > don't think he would, but Dobby might in the right circumstances; if > family ties were involved, for instance. > > Note that Dobby doesn't seem to be concerned about what might happen to > the rest - Ginny can die, Hermione, Colin and the others can be > petrified, the Basilisk can rampage to its hearts content, just so long > as *Harry* is safe. Annemehr: The fact that Dobby punishes himself convinces me that he *was* breaking the rules as he knew them. Malfoy must not have said anything that could be construed as "visit Harry" or even "leave the house" IMO. So I conclude that Dobby went to greater extremes than Kreacher did to visit someone outside the house. And now I join you in considering *why* he was so compelled to warn Harry. It is certainly easy to suppose that Harry may be related to the Malfoys in some way, and that Dobby knows this and wants to protect him. From the text, I don't think we can reach any conclusions, unless Dobby just takes the whole thing very personally -- that Harry is responsible for the defeat of his hated master's Master. But I think there is a hint in ch. 10 of CoS: "'Oh, is that all?' said Harry angrily. 'I don't suppose you're going to tell me *why* you wanted me sent home in pieces?' "'Ah, if Harry Potter only knew!' Dobby groaned, more tears dripping onto his ragged pillowcase. 'If he knew what he means to us, to the lowly, the enslaved, we dregs of the magical world! [...]'" I think this is a hint for the future that House Elves (and others? Goblins, Merpeople, some Centaurs even?) see some possibilities in The Boy Who Lived that don't even enter the general mindset of the Wizard population. I think Dobby was telling Harry the truth but barely scratched the surface of it. Of course, this wouldn't preclude that James was related to Lucius or Narcissa in some way, too. Kneasy: > Dobby was not interested in preventing Tom Riddle > from re-birth and all that that could mean, he was only concerned with > keeping Harry out of it. Note also he will not betray Malfoy's > dastardly plot in any way ( for Malfoy is family) except where it > touches on Harry. Annemehr: Hmm. Let's compare Dobby and Kreacher again. According to Dumbledore, Sirius had given Kreacher direct orders not to reveal certain things about the Order to anyone. But there were some things very useful to Narcissa and Voldemort that Sirius had neglected to include in this ban, most notably that Sirius and Harry were the most important people in the world to each other. We have no idea what kind of specific orders Lucius gave Dobby regarding the secrecy of the Diary plot. He may have merely been relying on Dobby's keeping the family secrets in general. Dobby does say the family pays little attention to him (e.g. just lets Dobby get on with it when he punishes himself), so this would be plausible. If Harry is not part of the Malfoys' extended family, Dobby is breaking all the rules to tell him anything, and therefore will give Harry very minimal amounts of information to minimize the violation. If Harry can be considered part of the family, I think Dobby would feel free to tell him anything Lucius had not expressly forbidden him to tell. So either Lucius banned Dobby from speaking of the plot, or Harry is not family. There -- I've reached no conclusion whatsoever, darn it. Finally, there was a brief discussion on the manner in which Dobby was freed. Inge, in a response to Kneasy wrote: Actually Lucius doesn't even hand the sock over to Dobby - he just throws it aside and Dobby sort of catches it with the words: "Master has given Dobby a sock! Master gave it to Dobby!" I'd think it should take an actual presenting of a piece of clothes to an elf to set him/her/it free. Annemehr: I think that just tossing the sock would be sufficient. After all, Dobby says in ch. 10 of CoS (in the hospital wing): "Dobby can only be freed if his masters present him with clothes, sir. The family is careful not to pass Dobby even a sock, sir, for then he would be free to leave their house forever." It does seem as though the Malfoys must be very careful about handing Dobby any clothing. I think what Lucius did with the sock was enough. Dobby can say "Harry Potter set Dobby free!" because he is fully aware that it was Harry who tricked Lucius into freeing Dobby, so he gives him the credit. Kneasy certainly has a point. Dobby feels a *very* strong connection to Harry Potter, such as a House Elf might feel for a family member. While this may turn out to be true, and eventually give Dobby a reason to attach himself to Harry in the next two books, I can't help but feel that there is more to it as far as non-human magical beings are concerned. Annemehr From o_caipora at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 18:02:52 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:02:52 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83493 "grannybat84112" wrote: > Caipora considered: > > > I'm fairly sure one of Rowling's sources is Kipling's "Stalky & > Co". Set in a boarding school, has a Trio, etc. > > > > Kipling was of course Victorian. Even so, his meaning is clear. > > Uh, it's not clear to me. (I'm not sure whether this is because I > speak American English as opposed to The King's English, or if I'm > just not as well-versed in the subtlety of Victorian euphemism.) Reading the entire story makes it clear, at least to the adult. Kipling may have been intentionally obscure to such of his readers who may have gone direct from "The Jungle Book" to "Stalky & Co." This isn't one of the better Stalky stories. The entire book can be found at (Yahoo was unfriendly to the last link; you may need to copy and paste this one to the address bar in segments) http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/prose /StalkyandCo/index.html I mentioned this as a probable source for Rowling. Snape bears quite a resemblance to housemaster King. In some other commentary on English public schools, it seemed that "unclean microbes" was a code word for either masturbation or homosexuality: it was something to be prevented by tiring the boys out on the playing fields and putting saltpeter in the stew. > > When Harry is in the > > Prefect's Bath, Millicent peeks at him. ... If even a spirit > > cannot withstand a bit of sexual curiosity, what can we assume of > > flesh in the grip of adolescent hormones? > (The ghost is Moaning Myrtle, by the way.) My mistake. Sorry. > Well, yes, but the mandrakes are bit players rather than main > characters. And their ultimate destiny is to be sliced, diced, and > pureed into a restorative draught; hardly an encouraging omen for > teens interested in learning about sex. This thread started off on the topic of ethics. The treatment of the mandrakes, who are anthropormorphized and then pur?ed, is one of the ethically most troubling incidents in the books. > (Still, I can't help waiting for Malfoy to make some homophobic > crack about Harry and Ron's friendship. Dudley makes such a crack at the start of OotP, regarding Harry's saying Cedric's name in his nightmares, so it's not beyond Rowling's reach. Regarding Victorian/Edwardian British mores in general, read Saki's "Tobermory": a story of a cat who is taught to speak. He's been observing a country-house party (including through their bedroom windows), and their panic at what he might say suggests that their behavior hasn't been, well, Victorian. You can find it complete at: http://wondersmith.com/scifi/toby.htm The distress of the characters must have made sense to Saki's upper- class readership, who presumably found untoward goings-on to be not too out of the ordinary. One of the most puzzling aspects of romance if not sex in Rowling is Hermione's cool explanations of how girls behave in OotP. Her demeanor has an air of "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" but her only romantic relationship we know of is with Viktor, and that seem largely epistolary. How does she know so well how other girls behave? She's given to spells, but in a different sense than other girls. So how does she know? - Caipora From senderellabrat at aol.com Fri Oct 24 18:03:54 2003 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:03:54 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83494 According to the HP Lexicon: Bill Weasley- born mid 60's Charlie Weasley- born 1967 Percy Weasley- born 1976 Twin Weasleys- born April 1978 Ron Weasley- born March 1980 Ginny Weasley- born 1981 I didn't see where it said the Order was created (anyone?). During the time I'm assuming it was created (at least during Lily & James's 7th yr. Maybe even the year after they got out) which would be 77/78. The Weasley's are busy with their new family. You've got Charlie who is in his first few years of HW. A toddler Percy. Baby twins. Then later, a newborn Ron and I'm gonna venture to say Molly got pregnant w/ Ginny within 1 or 2 months of having Ron (lol while having toddler Fred/George twins. Which would probably make any parent cringe!). I figure it's pretty obvious why they weren't in the order. Their hands were tied up with the babies. First priority at that time. Sen From rredordead at aol.com Fri Oct 24 18:06:26 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:06:26 -0000 Subject: Last names vs First. (was: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: <002d01c39a1b$df847420$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83495 >Del Said: >Imagine that Harry and Hermione (or Lavender or Parvati) started >getting romantically interested in each other : would they suddenly >revert from calling each other by their first names to start using >their last names ?? No way.Moreover, we do know of someone who's >calling Hermione by her last name... Draco Malfoy. Should we then >assume that he's secretly in love with her ? >Taryn Said: >It wasn't said that EVERYONE in love would do that. But it certainly >occurs as a form of flirting. >Snip I just don't get it. Now me: The use of last names vs. first names in British Public (Americans read Private) schools is an interesting one. And because, along with almost all life in Britain, it deals with status and class it is somewhat complicated. One of those things you need to have grown up with to truly understand ;-) but here goes: Teachers will call a student by their last name as a measure of the childs lower status. First names indicate familiarity. Just as students will call a teacher Miss or Sir or Professor to show the teachers higher status. Boys are called by their last name only. Eg Potter and Weasley. Girls by Miss and then last name. Eg Miss Granger. (Unless the girl is in serious trouble then a teacher may use just their last name but in those circumstances it must be read as very derogatory and the teacher is very angry. When it happened to me I knew I was in BIG trouble.) Between students it is really the same idea. One student will use the last name of another to establish a higher status or in an attempt to put-down or psyche out the other student. The OotP Pensive scene is really a good example of this behavior and tells us a lot about James Potter and his state of mind at the time and the status of all players involved in this scene. James calls Lily 'Evans' which is at once an insult, by not showing her proper respect and a way to get immediate attention. No one can avoid being publicly called out in such a way. Of course we know James is crushing on Lily, but he wouldn't want her, or those around to know that and give her the advantage. James clearly wants every one to know where he is standing in relation to everyone around him. He thinks very highly of himself at this time and considers everyone else around him (other then his close friends) below him, even Lily. Possibly because she is muggle born or because she is a girl, what ever the reason he clearly thinks he is better than her to the extent that he truly believes he can black mail her in to going out with him and by the extent of his rage at her public refusal of him. I love that scene; it is very well constructed and tells us so much and so little at the same time. It's the same with Malfoy and Harry, Ron and Hermione. Malfoy, who thinks he is better than everyone, uses last names all the time. To use first names is just too familiar and friendly. Another good example is Professor Snape calling Professor Lupin 'Lupin' through out PoA showing he thinks very little of Remus. Interestingly almost everyone calls Lupin 'Lupin' perhaps because of his part animal nature puts him below the full humans. Hope I haven't put you all to sleep. Mandy From kathryn-jones at comcast.net Fri Oct 24 10:55:50 2003 From: kathryn-jones at comcast.net (jmjklj) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:55:50 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83496 After a discussion of movie contamination with regards to the house robes, crests, etc., tc says: "This isn't too hard to explain. The boarding school I referred to earlier had 7 houses and some 220 pupils. It was just possible in your middle years to know nearly everyone. However, it was also possible (sometimes much easier) to recognize a group or individual that you didn't know the name of as coming from a particular house simply by association or by where they were (say on the paths between houses, where they were sitting in chapel/dining room, etc.) This is not only entirely feasible, for me it's entirely believable based on experience. House ties identified us on weekdays but on Sundays we'd wear a school tie and other occasions we wouldn't have this sign, but you'd still know what houses people belonged to." Me: Also, the houses ate together at meals. Surely, you'd recognize different house members from where they are seated. So it's quite reasonable to place a face, not a name with a certain house. -Kathryn From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Oct 24 18:22:48 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:22:48 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > > If some of the fanfics are anything to go by, it's a miracle anyone > has time for lessons or quidditch. > > ;-) > > June LOL!! I agree, June, especially Seamus!! If he's not running around in the dorm naked, looking for a playmate when Dean is too tired, he's grouping Ron, who's not intrested!! I'm still befuddled about why Seamus is the horndog. :) Time to move this thread to the OT list. ;) Jeff From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Fri Oct 24 01:24:37 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:24:37 -0400 Subject: No sex, please Message-ID: <000a01c399cd$982346e0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83498 I have been reading with interest all the discussions about high schools in Britain and theU.S. I live in the midwest, Ohio, and my children attend private R.C. schools which are college prep. The course work is challenging, and the schools are very expensive for us, with our 9 children. I have often wondered if it is a similar difficulty for the Weasleys to pay for their children's education at Hogwarts, and that is one reason why they are so short of money. Our boys attend all boys schools and the girls attend all girls schools, but they all live at home, rather than board. This past spring we hosted a German high school girl for a month, and then my 16 year old daughter visited a German school. There were several German high school students visiting, here in the U.S. at both the boys and girls schools and our particular student told me that some of her German friends were very disappointed, because they thought that American high schools would be like what they had seen on TV. Instead, the American kids were busy with studies, jobs and after school activities. My 15 year old freshman in high school, who is about Harry's age, is very clueless when it comes to girls. I am working hard just to teach him proper table manners, and sometimes I have to remind him to take a shower or change his dirty shirt. My 13 year old, on the other hand, is very fashion conscience and showers every day. But from what I have observed these kids tend to do things in groups: they have their theatre group and the band group etc., but I don't see a lot of pairing off at this stage.The description of Harry and his friends fits very well what I have seen with my teens. Mary Jo MOD Note: Please ensure that responses to this post discuss the Harry Potter books. Any discussion about school life or teenage behaviour in general should be posted to our OTC list:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com. Thanks From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 18:24:53 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:24:53 -0000 Subject: Droobles/Wizard Sweets (Was:Re: Odds and Ends) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83499 pennygbrooks wrote: > 3) There is some meaning behind the Droobles gum wrappers that > Neville's mother keeps giving him. I'm thinking that somehow, the > DE's are tied up in the wizard candy industry. Maybe that's how they > make all their money. Money laundering by the DEs! Or maybe it's one of the old family businesses that Lucius owns and one of the sources of his income? It's certainly possible -- *and* a handy way to sneak into the population some of the Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts that JKR was hitting us over the head with just before Dobby tells Harry about the Room of Requirement (ch. 18). About those Droobles gum wrappers, now. True, Neville has "enough to paper [his] bedroom by now. But, just a few paragraphs before, as Alice approaches Neville holding something in her outstretched hand, we read: "Again?" said Mrs. Longbottom, sounding slightly weary. "Very well, Alice dear, very well -- Neville, take it, whatever it is...." Neville's gran does *not* know it's going to be a Drooble's wrapper. Though the thought that Wizard sweets in general, or Drooble's gum in particular, may have some significance in the coming struggle feels likely enough, I don't think that's the true point of this scene. I think the real reason is to show that Alice does indeed recognize and *love* her son. Besides, either she's improved some since GoF, when Dumbledore tells Harry that Neville's parents don't recognize him, or Dumbledore was mistaken. Neville was a possibility to be "the one" when the prophecy was first heard, and Dumbledore must have given the Longbottoms some protection at the time because of it. If part of the protection was a rune charm, perhaps Neville has a latent one on his forehead as well, which Alice may yet someday activate? Annemehr out in the stratosphere, maybe, but it's nice up here... From lbiles at flash.net Fri Oct 24 18:27:15 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:27:15 -0000 Subject: Canon supporting KITTENS & RAINBOWS (little bit of TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > Canon supporting that Harry has a bit of Voldemort's mind inside of > him: > > -- "'You can speak Parseltongue, Harry,' said Dumbledore > calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaining ancestor > of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much > mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he > gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure...' > 'Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?' Harry said, thunderstruck. > 'It certainly seems so.'" [CoS] > > Ok, so we all know Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry > the night his AK curse backfired. And that same night a connection > was formed between Harry and Voldemort, a connection that allows > Harry to feel what Voldemort feels, sometimes even lets him see and > hear what Voldemort sees and hears, and makes his scar hurt whenever > Voldemort is near by. But like Harry thinks to himself in OotP, > Dumbledore has never been able to give a satisfactorily explanation > for this connection. A possible explanation might be that Voldemort > transferred more than just some of his powers that night, that in > fact a part of Voldemort's mind was somehow transferred to Harry. Don't forget the episodes of legilimancy that Harry experienced during his History of Magic OWL. That could be another power LV transferred but it wasn't activated until Snape hit the trigger. Makes you wonder what else could be hidden in there! leb From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Oct 24 18:33:25 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:33:25 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83501 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" wrote: > "jeffl1965" wrote: > > Look at the drapes on the boy's beds. Privacy? To do *what*? :) > > It's more a matter of heating. Castles, and even British country > houses, are notoriously ill-heated. Bed curtains keep the heat in. > That's what the hot-water-bottles are about, too. > > Though Kipling writes against the dangers of "even a curtain in a > dorm" quoted by me somewhere above in thread, with link to to online > full text. > > The best magical solution to heating problems is found in a short > (175 words) Larry Niven story. I won't reproduce it here (for > copyright rather than length reasons) but go to > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7695/JOKES.HTM's and look > for "Air Conditioner". > > - Caipora Jeff: Thanks for the link. I was being cheeky about the curtains, but you're quite right about the cold. There's no sign of heat in the dorms that I can recall, and I had always presumed that the quilts/sheets were charmed to give off some heat, since it appears that the boys wear thin pyjamas to bed, which would do nothing to protect them on cold nights, and trips to the loo. Poor Ron's are described as being thread bare, iirc, so if he's not wearing underpants, I can tell you that he's *very* uncomfortable. Also, being rather old-fashioned, I'd guess that the school wouldn't use hotwater bottles, but rather do it the old way, with the heated briquets in the pan instead. Rubber is too much of a muggle invention for them to use, imho. But I could be wrong. Jeff From grannybat at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 18:52:03 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:52:03 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: <3F95BB30.6050201@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83502 Pshemekan wrote: > > > >(Hmm, how do > >budding wizards shave? With wands? With a beard inhibiting potion? > >With an old-fashioned straight razor? > > Wands. Definitely. Morning (and sometimes evening) shave is a major > bane of human male existence. Now you've got me wondering about a minor bane of human female existence: Shaving legs. Do witches even bother, or do they just count on those long robes for cover? Rowling has yet to show us a student wearing shorts or a teacher in a miniskirt. > >... the only adolescent we see demonstrating overt > >sexual urges is Roger Davies, the Ravenclaw who appears to change > >girlfriends every month. > > > You missed two other examples: the pair caught by Snape in the > bushes during Yule Ball Are you referring to Fawcett and Stebbins, or to Fleur and Roger? Fawcett & Stebbins I'll grant you, although my initial reading of that scene didn't translate as Snape catching them in the middle of a snog. I thought they were just running around as kids in high spirits, `letting their hair down.' (To an uptight Victorian like Snape, unconstrained enthusiasm would be perceived as bad form.) As for the others?I've already mentioned Davies' hormones, and Fleur is, well...French. ;) > and Patil's horror when she realised that > Crouch/Moody can see through clothes ("Nice socks, Potter!"). I didn't interpret this as sexual nervousness. I saw her reaction as revulsion against Moody's all-around creepiness and his ability to invade personal privacy in at will. Was it Lavender or Parvati whom Moody chastised in DADA class for showing her horoscope beneath the desk when he was speaking? > You should also take into account that WW teens are not > indoctrinated by TV shows, teen magazines and generally speaking > pop culture. Yes, there's a real dearth of Muggle entertainment once kids enter Hogwarts, isn't there? No videos or music CDs enchanted to run off magical devices rather than electricity, certainly no Internet, not even paper media. Dean Thomas's poster of the West Ham soccer (sorry, football) team is the only item mentioned; I assume Muggle- borns can receive letters from their non-magical family members without restriction. (Dumbledore reads Muggle newspapers, but he's unusual even by Magical standards.) Freedom from sexual peer pressure may be a good thing...but are we meant to assume that the values and culture of the Magical world consume Muggle-borns so thoroughly? Chilling thought, that. Grannybat From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Fri Oct 24 18:16:53 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:16:53 -0400 Subject: Percy Ignatius Weasley Message-ID: <008301c39a5b$00b3f140$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83503 I was surprised to find out that Percy's middle name is Ignatius. This is disclosed during the hearing conducted by Umbridge concerning Harry's fighting off the dementors. I have puzzled over the significance of his middle name, and have a few ideas, but am unsure if any of them are correct. I would love to hear what everyone else thinks. 1, My hobby is genealogy, and when I find someone named Ignatius in my research, the name always means that the family was Roman Catholic at the time the name was given. However, in the WW we don't have any religions, so I don't think is really relevant. 2. Could St. Ignatius of Loyola be somehow a model for Percy? I know that St. Ignatius of Loyola was originally a soldier, and when he was an invalid from wounds received during battle, he read a book about the life of a saint, and decided to try to be a saint himself. Does this part of his life represent ambitious Percy? St. Ignatius later said that the biggest and most important thing he had to learn was humility. Are we going to see Percy humbled? Or is he in reality already an undercover spy? The order St. Ignatius did institute became famous for its excellent education and teaching of logic. Perhaps this is an indication that Percy will end up as the teacher at Hogwarts. I am not fully satisfied with any of these ideas. Does anyone else think that his middle name is somehow a clue? Mary Jo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thren at subreality.com Fri Oct 24 18:35:08 2003 From: thren at subreality.com (Thren) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:35:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F9970DB.5050701@subreality.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83504 Pshemekan (on shaving): >Wands. Definitely. Morning (and sometimes evening) shave is a major bane of human male existence. I dunno... If I were in an authority figure at Hogwarts, nothing on the planet could persuade me to allow wizards *in training* to point their wands at their faces. Madam Pomfrey would never get so much as a lunch break for running around trying to repair damage. :P o_caipora wrote: > One of the most puzzling aspects of romance if not sex in Rowling is > >Hermione's cool explanations of how girls behave in OotP. Her >demeanor has an air of "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" but >her only romantic relationship we know of is with Viktor, and that >seem largely epistolary. How does she know so well how other girls >behave? She's given to spells, but in a different sense than other >girls. So how does she know? > > I don't find it that puzzling. I was a lot like Hermione in school (always with my nose in books- I wish I'd had her marks!), and I knew a lot about what was going on around me, even if I didn't experience it myself. If you shut your mouth and just listen, you learn a whole lot of things you wouldn't normally. Girls talk. A lot. Especially when there are not boys around. Hermione's mentioned girls talking in the toilets, and I imagine a lot of talking goes on in the dormitories, as well, and anywhere else boys aren't allowed to go (showers?). There are things she'd overhear without meaning to/being able to avoid it (also taking into account that girls don't generally care if you hear it if you're not in their clique/think you're socially inferior/aren't paying attention). Her lack of experience isn't such a big deal, and I suspect she takes that tone 1) because it's old news to her and she thought it was obvious, and possibly 2) to annoy them. ;) Thren From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Oct 24 20:02:58 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:02:58 -0000 Subject: Percy Ignatius Weasley In-Reply-To: <008301c39a5b$00b3f140$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Neyer" wrote: > I was surprised to find out that Percy's middle name is Ignatius. This is disclosed during the hearing conducted by Umbridge concerning Harry's fighting off the dementors. I have puzzled over the significance of his middle name, and have a few ideas, but am unsure if any of them are correct. I would love to hear what everyone else thinks. > > 1, My hobby is genealogy, and when I find someone named Ignatius in my research, the name always means that the family was Roman Catholic at the time the name was given. However, in the WW we don't have any religions, so I don't think is really relevant. > > 2. Could St. Ignatius of Loyola be somehow a model for Percy? I know that St. Ignatius of Loyola was originally a soldier, and when he was an invalid from wounds received during battle, he read a book about the life of a saint, and decided to try to be a saint himself. Does this part of his life represent ambitious Percy? St. Ignatius later said that the biggest and most important thing he had to learn was humility. Are we going to see Percy humbled? Or is he in reality already an undercover spy? The order St. Ignatius did institute became famous for its excellent education and teaching of logic. Perhaps this is an indication that Percy will end up as the teacher at Hogwarts. > > I am not fully satisfied with any of these ideas. Does anyone else think that his middle name is somehow a clue? > > Mary Jo *Snort*--I just took it as a play on the word "ignoramous". Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Oct 24 20:10:55 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:10:55 -0000 Subject: Bat Bogey Hex Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83506 Ok, I obviously should be working harder if my mind is pondering this...but still... What exactly do you all think this hex is? Does it make one's bogeys (boogers in the Us, I assume)fly out of one's nostrils and then fly around like a bat and attack that person? Because quite honestly, this is how I envisioned it. Am I just really odd or did anyone else see it like this? Is there another (ok, I am just inviting a bunch of disgusting, albeit fun, suppositions here) way to imagine this hex working? Arya Who also showed sign of obssessive HP behavior when last night drinking a beer, looked at the can and thought, "It's kind of cold, I wish this was a warm butterbeer." and then proceeded to put the beer in a glass with a pat of butter and into the microwave. I took it out and nearly wretched at the awful smell of newly activated yeast. But, being the ever-adventurous science geek that I am and die-hard HP fan (and all around moron at times), I plugged my nose and took a drink. And then spit it out. Several times. I continued to rinse mouth with mouthwash for over two hours later. *Strongly* do not recommend. 'Nuff said. Anyone got a recipe for Pumpkin juice? From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Oct 24 20:16:53 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:16:53 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83507 --- Inge wrote, responding to Kneasy's discussion of the incident in which Dobby is freed (more discussion of Kneasy's points below): > Actually Lucius doesn't even hand the sock over > to Dobby - he just throws it aside and Dobby > sort of catches it with the words: "Master has > given Dobby a sock! Master gave it to Dobby!" > I'd think it should take an actual presenting > of a piece of clothes to an elf to set him/her/ > it free. Well, there's been a lot of theorizing around here recently on what "ought" as a matter of principle be required to free an elf. If you proceed from those principles, there is a reasonable argument to be made that the "giving of clothes" requires some degree of intentionality on the part of the giver and some connection between the giver and the "house" (architectural or geneological) to which the elf belongs. If instead you trace back what we are told up to that point in CS, however, the scene with Dobby, Lucius and Harry is pretty well set up. Dobby tells Harry early on (when asked about his funny get-up) that his family is very careful not to "pass" any clothing to Dobby, "not even a sock" (I am a bit fuzzy on the actual wording here; it may have been something stronger, such as "not to leave even a sock lying around"), lest Dobby be set free. Whatever the words, the language fairly clearly indicated that vigilance was required, the negative implication being that an elf can be freed inadvertently. I'm not sure how this is supposed to square with the house elf's housekeeping duties. A couple of folks pointed out on a related thread that house elves could hardly do laundry under these circum- stances. One possible answer is that laundry simply is not one of a house elf's chores (there is no direct example of a house elf doing laundry as far as I can recall, although I have a nagging memory of Kreacher having squirreled away some old piece of clothing that had belonged to one of Sirius' parents). Another possibility is that assigning laundry duties is handled with extreme precision ("I am unlocking the hamper now, Dobby. Wash and fold these clothes and return them to me at once; they are not for you to keep.") A third is that, in order to "give" a piece of clothing in the relevant sense, the donor must do something to disclaim ownership of the item -- e.g., discarding it, as Lucius does with Harry's sock. Whatever the answer, though, if we are to believe what Dobby originally told Harry (and we have been given no reason to *dis*believe it), it must be possible to free one's house elf without specifi- cally intending to do so. ============================================ Getting back to Kneasy's original post, the theory that Dobby has some connection to Harry that we haven't learned about yet has a certain appeal. Probably the weakest link in the Dobby story is the explanation for why he sought out Harry in the first place. He says a lot of stuff about how "great" he has heard Harry is (odd, as has been observed, that he would get that impression from the Malfoys), and a bit about how tough things were for house elves during the Voldemort days. That seems rather more attenuated a connection than one would think would be needed to prompt Dobby to leave the Malfoys several times (as he does in his efforts to warn/disable Harry). I believe the idea that Harry could be related to the Malfoys (specifically, on Lucius' side) has been mentioned before as a possible reason for Dobby's ability to visit him (although not before in connection with freeing Dobby). I have trouble believing such a relationship, given the strong emphasis JKR has placed on differences in physical appearance between, e.g., Harry and Draco (or, correspondingly, James and Lucius). It would, though, have the rabbit-out-of-a-hat character of some of JKR's revelations. And, getting back to Kneasy's point, I don't have any better explanation for Dobby's initial attraction to Harry. All in all, a fertile ground for hypotheses. -- Matt From lbiles at flash.net Fri Oct 24 20:24:44 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:24:44 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83508 Kneasy: (with much snipping) > > So why did Dobby seek out Harry? > > Is Harry part of the extended family that is centred on the household that Dobby serves? According to the known rules that govern House Elves, he must be. Strangers are of no concern to a House Elf, only family. Additionally, it makes no sense for Dobby to have received instructions from Malfoy to warn Harry. Aged twelve he didn't have the notorious 'pest' factor he later becomes famous for. No one would suspect he could cock-up Tom Riddle and a Basilisk at that age. So why would Malfoy warn him off? I don't think he would, but Dobby might in the right circumstances; if family ties were involved, for instance. > > Note that Dobby doesn't seem to be concerned about what might happen to the rest - Ginny can die, Hermione, Colin and the others can be petrified, the Basilisk can rampage to its hearts content, just so long as *Harry* is safe. Dobby was not interested in preventing Tom Riddle from re-birth and all that that could mean, he was only concerned with keeping Harry out of it. Note also he will not betray Malfoy's dastardly plot in any way ( for Malfoy is family) except where it touches on Harry. Throughout the book runs the same thread - Harry must be removed from danger and bugger everyone else. The blinkered view of dedicated and compulsive family retainer. > > Even after manumission Dobby still shows an interest in Harry's welfare, rather as Winky does with the Crouches - her family no longer, but habits of a lifetime are hard to break. > > JKR has famously said that she nearly gave the game away in CoS. The 'why' of it all. Could this be part of it? A critical connection that was unsuspected, with the behaviour of Elves the linking clue through three books? > > So far, we know nothing about James' family, except they were rich and pureblood. Doesn't that seem odd? And doesn't James Potter seem a very odd sort of name for an old wizarding family? >>Annemehr: (also with much snipping) >>The fact that Dobby punishes himself convinces me that he *was* breaking the rules as he knew them. Malfoy must not have said anything that could be construed as "visit Harry" or even "leave the house" IMO. So I conclude that Dobby went to greater extremes than Kreacher did to visit someone outside the house. And now I join you in considering *why* he was so compelled to warn Harry. >> >>It is certainly easy to suppose that Harry may be related to the Malfoys in some way, and that Dobby knows this and wants to protect him. From the text, I don't think we can reach any conclusions, unless Dobby just takes the whole thing very personally -- that Harry is responsible for the defeat of his hated master's Master. But I think there is a hint in ch. 10 of CoS: >>"'Oh, is that all?' said Harry angrily. 'I don't suppose you're going to tell me *why* you wanted me sent home in pieces?' >>"'Ah, if Harry Potter only knew!' Dobby groaned, more tears dripping onto his ragged pillowcase. 'If he knew what he means to us, to the lowly, the enslaved, we dregs of the magical world! [...]'" >> >>I think this is a hint for the future that House Elves (and others? Goblins, Merpeople, some Centaurs even?) see some possibilities in The Boy Who Lived that don't even enter the general mindset of the Wizard population. I think Dobby was telling Harry the truth but barely scratched the surface of it. Of course, this wouldn't preclude that James was related to Lucius or Narcissa in some way, too. >> >>Kneasy certainly has a point. Dobby feels a *very* strong connection to Harry Potter, such as a House Elf might feel for a family member. While this may turn out to be true, and eventually give Dobby a reason to attach himself to Harry in the next two books, I can't help but feel that there is more to it as far as non-human magical beings are concerned. leb: There is just as much chance that I read this somewhere else on the board than it came from my own for the moment flu-riddled mind but . . . what is the liklihood that Dobby once served the Most Noble House of Potter and was only assigned to the Malfoys by the house elf relocation branch of the MoM upon the death of James. Dobby would still be tied to the service of the Potters in some way but would have primary loyalties with the Malfoys. This would also explain why he was compelled to help Harry but didn't even consider danger to the others around Harry. Had Dobby served the Potters then he would most undoubtedly be aware of the prophecy as well and know that Harry was possibly the one foreseen to defeat LV and thereby help the lowly, the enslaved, and the dregs. Hmmm. Could be. leb From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Oct 24 20:25:04 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:25:04 EDT Subject: ADMIN: Less Is More Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83509 Greetings from Hexquarters! May we take the opportunity to remind you of something? Snipping. No, no, *not* SHIPping, *snipping*! Yes. That. Editing out unnecessary material from the posts to which you reply. You know. You read your way through a long message: He said. She said. So-and-so commented. etc., etc... And somewhere in the middle of it all is a point that you just *have* to answer. Please folks, before you reply, will you cut down the original message to *the minimum needed to place your own comments into context*? At present we seem to be receiving a large number of posts where the quotes far, far exceed the new comments in length. We want to read what *you* have to say, not what s/he said for the fifth or fiftieth time. This is a Very High Volume List. It helps our bandwidth, it helps those on Digest (who otherwise have to scroll repeatedly through the same posts over and over again to get to the new stuff) and it helps the sanity of your Elves if everyone abides by our snipping conventions. And it makes *your* comments stand out much more clearly. Please assume that anyone reading your post *is* following the thread, but remember that they are not mind-readers, so they will not know which precise point you are replying to unless you quote it. Our convention here is to place quotes *before* comments. Please abide by this. Would you also please clearly attribute quotes at the top, preferably cutting quotees signatures from the bottom, so that they are not later mistaken for the attribution of your own thoughts (trust us, it happens). What do we mean by quotes before comments and cutting the signature and placing it at the top for attribution? This: .............................................................................. ............................... Weezy Elf wrote: > We have quite a lot of interesting, fun new members, don't we? >>> We certainly do! It's been a bit tricky keeping up with all the discussion, but it's great to have so many new people to discuss new canon with! --Kelley Elf ................................................................. With many thanks, Your List Administration Team [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Oct 24 20:30:20 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:30:20 EDT Subject: ADMIN: Who Said That? Message-ID: <67.1b083888.2ccae5dc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83510 Greetings from Hexquaters! There have been a number of posts recently in which the attribution of quotes has been either lacking or confusing. Please would you make sure that you attribute clearly? It is a matter of basic courtesy to the previous poster to acknowledge them and (given Yahoo!'s imperfect threading function) it helps anyone who might want to go back to find the quoted post to know who wrote it. Similarly, please don't just launch into a post with "That's a great idea"or "I agree", without letting us know whom you're agreeing with and (briefly!) what the idea is. Please attribute *clearly* and *accurately* and don't just rely on automatic nested attribution: ........................ ---In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Harry"> <Harry at Pott..wrote:> ---In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dick > wrote:> > ---In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >>>Phoenix tears....I forgot >>> >> >>Lucky for Harry that Voldemort always seems to have such memory lapses >Luck? What's luck got to do with anything? > >Harry ........................................ is not particularly clear, whereas .............................. Tom: >>>Phoenix tears....I forgot Dick: >>Lucky for Harry that Voldemort always seems to have such memory lapses Harry: >Luck? What's luck got to do with anything? ............................... leaves no room for error. Please attribute quotes *at the top*. Do not just leave a signature at the bottom, which may later (on quoting) look like the attribution of *your* comments. On a related issue, if you are referencing a theory or idea which you know you have heard previously in this group, would you please also acknowledge that fact? It is not uncommon for a number of people to come up with the same theory independently, but if you *know* your idea is not original and you know who *did* come up with the it, please mention them as a courtesy or (if you can't remember who) at least indicate that you have *read* the theory. Many thanks The HPfGU Admin Team. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Oct 24 20:16:20 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:16:20 -0000 Subject: Bat Bogey Hex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: Arya: > What exactly do you all think this hex is? > > Does it make one's bogeys (boogers in the Us, I assume)fly out of > one's nostrils and then fly around like a bat and attack that > person? Because quite honestly, this is how I envisioned it. Geoff: Don't forget that a bogey is an "evil or mischievious spirit" - according to my dictionary. I assumed that the Bat Bogey Hex was something along these lines - though it does also smack of an obscure dance performed by teengers. :-) From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Oct 24 21:07:05 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:07:05 -0000 Subject: Psychoanalysis of CoS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "olivierfouquet2000" > wrote: > > > > My point is that a major theme of CoS is sexuality, more precisely > the anxious feelings children are experiencing when they first > encounter sexuality, before being mature enough. > > Laura: > > What a fun post! Well done, Olivier. I just wanted to add that at > Nimbus thee was a rather startling presentation (I can't remember > the name of the woman who gave it, I'm afraid) on this very > subject. The presenter suggested that tCoS is indeed a metaphor for > awakening adolescence. In addition to some of the ideas you've put > forth, she talked about the symbolism of the search for Ginny. Harry > has to enter a girls' bathroom, say special secret words and find > the way to a hidden passageway (which is described as "an endless, > slimy, dark slide" CoS 301 US). You get the idea. Carolyn: I have never been able to decide whether it is intentional sexual imagery, or just rather unfortunate phrasing when she describes them as climbing (sometimes with difficulty) in and out through the hole behind the Fat Lady portrait. Plus the several conversations (often involving Ron) where the portrait says things like 'so I'll just hang here, wide open then, shall I ?' when they climb out and run off on one of their exploits. And then there are all those broomsticks, ridden by both boys and girls, and it is the most popular wizard sport, after all. Sorry, didn't want to lower the tone by mentioning all this before ! From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 21:12:12 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:12:12 -0000 Subject: Bat Bogey Hex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > What exactly do you all think this hex is? > Arya > Who also showed sign of obssessive HP behavior when last night > drinking a beer, looked at the can and thought, "It's kind of cold, I wish this was a warm butterbeer." and then proceeded to put the beer in a glass with a pat of butter and into the microwave. I took it out and nearly wretched at the awful smell of newly activated yeast. But, being the ever-adventurous science geek that I am and die- hard HP fan (and all around moron at times), I plugged my nose and took a drink. And then spit it out. Several times. I continued to rinse mouth with mouthwash for over two hours later. *Strongly* do not recommend. 'Nuff said. Anyone got a recipe for Pumpkin juice? First off, I LMAO! at your butterbeer imitation experiment. During an interview, JKR said she envisioned "butterbeer" as a sweet butterscotch flavoured drink. Now, the bat-bogey hex... according to the definition from the Harry Potter Lexicon (http://www.hp- lexicon.org/spells_b.html#bat-bogey): The bat-bogey hex engorges an opponent's bogeys to bat size, gives them wings and sets them to attacking his or her face. Lynnette, who thinks Snape is a good guy, even if he is not a nice person! From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 22:15:17 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:15:17 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" > wrote In response to the Where Were the Weasleys thread: > > > In the end, though, we will never know where they were, what they > > were doing, or why, unless JKR tells us. But until she does, there > > is no reason to suppose a Flint or an inconsistency is to be found in > > their absense, and ample room is available for relatively baseless > > speculation. > > > > > > Richard > > Me: > Richard-- the entire point of this list *is* for our own continual speculations > and just because you find a specualtion without merit for questioning, does > not mean it is "baseless". In fact, a *anything* is possible unless canon can > prove it untrue. In my opinion, picking up on small details and asking why > about them and then pulling, pulling, pulling that thread is exactly how we can > flush out red herrings and conjure up larger, more complex theories. > > Sorry, maybe I am just overreacting, but when I read your post, I thought you > were dismissing it out of hand and then it sounded like you were criticizing the > thread for existing in the first place. > > Arya Richard here: Yes, you over-reacted. What I intended was to remind people that speculation that is not founded in canon is baseless, and those who partake of such need to remember this fact. Too many people at least appear to "marry" their pet theories, *PARTICULARLY* those with the least basis in canon, then get highly miffed when people say so. It was also acknowledgement that MY explanation was very nearly baseless as well. After all, all we really know about the whereabouts of Arthur and Molly is that they were not seen at the Battle of the MoM. Canon provides the basis for plausible hypotheses for their not appearing, but in the end, the only person who knows where they were is JKR ... if she even thought about it ... and she may never tell us. Therefore, I am perfectly willing to have JKR settle the matter of their whereabouts AND accept it however she settles it, but not overly open to imputation of sinister intent because there is no basis in canon for such, and ample basis in canon for presuming the Weasley parents sincere and honest folk. I see such speculation as verging on the anti-canonical abyss precisely because there is no canonical basis for it and some canonical basis for presuming otherwise. I enjoy speculation, but I also am a firm believer in both the right of the story-teller to tell his or her story as he or she sees fit, and Occam's Razor. The modernized statement of that razor says that the simplest explanation that comprehends all known facts is preferrable to more complex ones. (Einstein's version covers a bit more ground than just explanations, and goes, "Make things as simple as possible ... but no simpler." Personally I like this version as it reminds us of our fallibility.) There are some really interesting "houses of cards" out their in speculation land. Elkins offered a very interesting set of theories regarding the Crouch family, a while back, that was quite well elaborated and presented in a very interesting manner. However much I enjoyed that speculation, I must say that it is still largely baseless. In particular, the Elkins's theory that Barty Crouch, sr., was having a sexual affair with Winky is both intrigueing and purely speculative ... something that goes well beyond canon and anything JKR is *likely* to have intended. This doesn't mean it is impossible. Just that Elkins should not be surprised or offended if others think it a really flaky theory, just as those who think such should not be offended if JKR decides to tell us that the theory is true wholly or in part. If JKR blesses it, it becomes a castle built upon bedrock. If she denies it, the house collapses immediately, just like any other "house of cards" that finds itself in a bit of a breeze. So, wrapping it all up, let's just say that I would like to see more of the speculation here have a sounder basis in canon, less that is anti-canonical, and for those offering acanonical speculations to be a little less in love with their own ideas and a lot more humble about them. So, what is my personal pet "pure" speculation? I would LOVE to see Harry discover that he has a godmother ... who just happens to be a fairy. I think this is consistent with the Wizarding World, with JKR's style and tenor, and with existing canon. But, will I be surprised or hurt if this is NOT the case? Or if others think the idea nuts? Nope. I just think it a charming little twist that would be fun, and potentially provide some additional interesting plot twists. Richard From o_caipora at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 23:17:29 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:17:29 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83515 Yet another bit of Larry Niven analysis comes to mind. In his _What Good is a Glass Dagger?_ an evil magician is desribed to the chief good wizard, the Warlock. The bad guy, it seems, carries a sword. The Warlock bursts out laughing. His explanation is that since a wizard has so many more powerful protections, he only carries a sword if he's using it as a cure for impotence. IIRC the dialogue goes, "Does it work?" "Of course it works, it's straight one-to-one similarity magic. But you have to take the sword to bed with you!" Thus Niven sheds new light on the personality of Godric Gryffindor. Jeff said: > Rubber is too much of a muggle > invention for them to use, imho. But I could be wrong. What do you think they use for birth control, then? From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Oct 24 23:33:31 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:33:31 -0000 Subject: Droobles/Confusing Draughts (Re: Odds and ends) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > About those Droobles gum wrappers, now. True, Neville has "enough to > paper [his] bedroom by now. But, just a few paragraphs before, as > Alice approaches Neville holding something in her outstretched hand, > we read: > > "Again?" said Mrs. Longbottom, sounding slightly weary. "Very well, > Alice dear, very well -- Neville, take it, whatever it is...." > > Neville's gran does *not* know it's going to be a Drooble's wrapper. Jen: As someone who just spent a week trying to make an anagram out of Droobles Best Blowing Gum, I'd say any message in the name is very well hidden! (Jen waves to hermionegallo for getting her hooked on anagrams ). But there *are* significant words that can be made out of the name (several of these are from other listees): St. Mungos, goblins, bobotuber, dementors, muggle-born; you just can't get the rest of the letters to complete the "Aha!" sentence. Annemehr makes a good point that its not just Droobles wrappers Neville receives, but different candy wrappers or possibly other pieces of paper. I agree this is more likely a hint that Alice is regaining some faculties and recognizing Neville. Annemehr: > Money laundering by the DEs! Or maybe it's one of the old family > businesses that Lucius owns and one of the sources of his income? > It's certainly possible -- *and* a handy way to sneak into the > population some of the Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts that JKR > was hitting us over the head with just before Dobby tells Harry about > the Room of Requirement (ch. 18). Jen: What was *up* with that?!? I kept waiting to find out Sirius (or Harry) was being slipped a potion by someone: "...where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness....Hermione said Sirius was becoming reckless cooped up in Grimmauld Place..." then later: "...moste efficacious in the inflaming of the braine...the 'Daily Prophet' would think his brain was inflamed if they found out he knew what Voldemort was feeling...." (OOTP, US, chap. 18, pgs. 383- 384) The aura of tension, fighting, anger, and despair over Grimmauld Place & Hogwarts is the emotional fallout from the divisiveness going on throughout OOTP. But could it also be LV invoking his brand of dark magic that is so similar to a Confusing or Befuddlement Draught? I've proposed this before, but re-reading OOTP hammers it home again--OOTP is the first time we're seeing the WW when Voldemort is back to "full strength" and we are also seeing a huge disinegration of the WW at the same time. And Harry is the most strongly affected because of the "weird connection , which Dumbledore had never been able to explain satisfactorily." (OOTP, US, chap. 18, p. 384) So, I don't know if it's in the Chocolate Frogs at Honeydukes, the water supply, or simply a power "Dumbledore knows not" , but I think Voldemort is doing something overt to cause this disinegration. From sydenmill at msn.com Sat Oct 25 00:07:49 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:07:49 -0000 Subject: Bat Bogey Hex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > Arya > Who also showed sign of obssessive HP behavior when last night > drinking a beer, looked at the can and thought, "It's kind of cold, I > wish this was a warm butterbeer." and then proceeded to put the beer > in a glass with a pat of butter and into the microwave. I took it > out and nearly wretched at the awful smell of newly activated yeast. > But, being the ever-adventurous science geek that I am and die-hard > HP fan (and all around moron at times), I plugged my nose and took a > drink. And then spit it out. Several times. I continued to rinse > mouth with mouthwash for over two hours later. *Strongly* do not > recommend. 'Nuff said. Anyone got a recipe for Pumpkin juice? >From Bohcoo: Try this website: http://www.geocities.com/hermione_hpforever/hp_recipes.html (There are others, too. . . Search: "Harry Potter Recipes") These are the same treats that Harry and Hermoine and Ron enjoy in all the books. Yep. Books 1 through 5 -- right there in print -- Pumpkin juice and Butterbeer and am I anywhere near sneaking this reply under the OT radar gun? :) From andie at knownet.net Sat Oct 25 00:29:50 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:29:50 -0000 Subject: Bat Bogey Hex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83518 > > Arya Anyone got a recipe for Pumpkin juice? > There are also recipes on http://www.mugglenet.com. Go to Rosmerta's Recipes. :) Andrea From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sat Oct 25 01:12:14 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:12:14 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?How_JKR_got_Voldemort=92s_Name_(=3F)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83519 Has anyone come across the Edgar Allan Poe short story called, "THE FACTS IN THE CASE OF M. VALDEMAR" http://www.sff.net/people/DoyleMacdonald/l_valdem.htm It is just like JKR to refer to the writings of some of her favourite authors in creating character names. Valdemar was near death, but prolonged his life is a way that scared or sickened medical staff. What do you think? ~aussie~ PS. I found this story in from a different source, so I haven't been through the other stories in that web site's "library". Good luck finding any other clues to character names From amani at charter.net Sat Oct 25 01:11:28 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:11:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No Sex, Please, We're British References: Message-ID: <003701c39a94$ebae1e80$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83520 Caipora: One of the most puzzling aspects of romance if not sex in Rowling is Hermione's cool explanations of how girls behave in OotP. Her demeanor has an air of "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" but her only romantic relationship we know of is with Viktor, and that seem largely epistolary. How does she know so well how other girls behave? She's given to spells, but in a different sense than other girls. So how does she know? Taryn: Most of the girls I know with any bit of observation and common sense know how girls their age act. /I/ knew what Harry did on his date with Cho was ridiculously stupid, and I'm a 16-year-old female who's never had a relationship in high school. But I can sure tell you how girls my age act, and certainly could've told Harry what he did wrong on the date. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From corliss_plum at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 16:23:30 2003 From: corliss_plum at yahoo.com (Christie Nixon) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The subject of dementors... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031024162330.90344.qmail@web11908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83521 --- AlLeY kAt wrote: > Perhaps a dementor is created upon the administration of > the "kiss." As in, the person who is kissed becomes a > dementor once his soul is sucked out. This leads to the > obvious question, where did the first dementor come from? > Well, perhaps whomever was Voldemort's predecessor (since > he is the worst in over a century, there must have been > someone before him) and he became the first dementor upon > his defeat. Because I am sure that, like Voldemort, he > had made special precautions to defeat death. When he was > defeated, he could not be killed, but his soul left him - > creating the first dementor... I regret not remembering where I read/heard this, but someone somewhere suggested that Dementors are bred. I don't own Fantastic Beasts, but there might be something in there about this or two possible parent creatures that would produce Dementors. Christie Nixon From davidseppi at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 18:33:45 2003 From: davidseppi at yahoo.com (davidseppi) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:33:45 -0000 Subject: how book 7 will end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83522 Jennifer wrote: > I think that there may be assassinations at the MoM and > that Percy maybe behind it. I think that Percy is under > the imperius curse either for Fudge or LV himself as an > inside job. It's going to be the coo of the century. > With the lack of the MoM the wizarding and muggle world > will become very vulnerable. I can't help but think Arthur Weasley will be made minister of magic at the end of book 7. In OOTP, there is an allusion to that somewhere. Anyway, it's very fitting with race solidarity theme running rampant in the books. :) David From strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 24 18:54:41 2003 From: strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:54:41 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) In-Reply-To: <006401c39966$12e1aec0$9a87aec7@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83523 Iggy here: > You could also have the fact that AD really knows a lot about > the nature of the Trio, and allowed Umbridge into the DADA > position because he had a hunch that the Trio would create > something like the DA, like they did... laura here... I certainly think that Dumbledore would know that the trio would attempt something like the DA, and reading OOTP last night I found something I thought was interesting, a little odd...in the room of requirement was 'a large, cracked foe-glass that Harry was sure had hung, the previous year, in the fake Moody's office' (uk edition p346) Why would't it have been a nice shiny unbroken foe-glass? And why the connection with fake Moody? I'm pretty sure this is relevant somehow, and I'm inclined to think that Dumbledore is behind it, but why that particular object completely escapes me...any ideas people? laura From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sat Oct 25 01:55:04 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:55:04 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" wrote: > > > Jeff said: > > > Rubber is too much of a muggle > > invention for them to use, imho. But I could be wrong. > > What do you think they use for birth control, then? Ye old English methods, the lunar cycle, or even a spell. You don't see any mentioning of condom dispensors in the boy's loo, do you? :) Jeff From pennygbrooks at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 19:22:50 2003 From: pennygbrooks at yahoo.com (pennygbrooks) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:22:50 -0000 Subject: Droobles/Wizard Sweets (Was:Re: Odds and Ends) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83525 Annemehr wrote: > Though the thought that Wizard sweets in general, or Drooble's > gum in particular, may have some significance in the coming > struggle feels likely enough, I don't think that's the true > point of this scene. I think the real reason is to show that > Alice does indeed recognize and *love* her son. Besides, either > she's improved some since GoF, when Dumbledore tells Harry that > Neville's parents don't recognize him, or Dumbledore was mistaken. >> Back to me again...I think you are right, Annemehr, in that it is a nice scene for Neville, and develops his character a bit for us. I still can't help thinking that the wrapper means something. In my mind's eye, I can see a Willy Wonka-like candy factory run by DE's (only less cheery and more halloweenish), with house elfs like oompa-loompas running around making the candy. Eh? It's a thought. If I wanted to give rise to some ridiculous speculation...since we don't know Tom Riddle's mother's maiden name, perhaps it's DROOBLE! And LV is the heir to the Droobles empire of candy products, but since he's bent on wizard-world domination at the moment, he's not focused on that part of his life right now. Bwa-ha-haaaa! Ok, even I don't buy into that. (Although, if this does prove itself to be true, I'll be strutting around telling everyone that I knew it all along!) Penny Bee Drooble From mookie1552 at aol.com Fri Oct 24 20:24:35 2003 From: mookie1552 at aol.com (Jennifer) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:24:35 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83526 Dobby is not your typical house elf. Consider the stark contrast between him and Winky. Dobby is the hippie of the house elves. He is "free man" and very foward thinking. He now gets paid, which according to house elf dogma is a big no no. Winky is very upset at what Dobby has done and consider their view of Herimone's SPEW, they hate it and think it is a bad idea. I do not agree with Kneasy's view that Harry is connected to the Malfoy's just because he was able to warn Harry and that he commented on the fact that "Harry Potter freed Dobby." Dobby is no fool, he knows what is going on and how crappy a life it is of a house elf. I personally think that Dobby was one of the worst treated House Elves around (would you want to be a servant of the Malfoys? I think Cinderella would be at a country club in comparison). Like I said, Dobby is ahead of him time, and he also understands what an important commodity Harry is to the wizarding world. We know that Lucius is a Death Eater, wouldn't it be safe to assume that Dobby overheard Lucius talking about the return of LV and realizes that he must stop him. I think that Dobby is putting his rules as a House Elf on the back burner and put his duty as a member of the wizarding world foward. If LV comes to power, every magical creature is in trouble. I just think that Dobby is a rule breaker. Dobby wanted to get away from the Malfoy family so badly that he would use any excuse to get away, i.e. the sock. Yes technically it is Harry's and Malfoy did not hand him the sock, just the diary with the sock. Dobby is not going with every rule in the book, we know that already, so I just think Dobby is bending the rules to get away from them. Another view to consider is how far back does Dobby know the Malfoy family? It's true that we don't know much about the Potter family, all we know is that they are a pureblood rich family like the Malfoys. But maybe Dobby knows. I can imagine that a long time ago when the Malfoys and Potters were quarreling the Potters did something for Dobby that changed him and he feels that he owes it to Harry now that he is the only one left. Dobby is different for a reason and the reason is because of something that happened long ago. "Jennifer" From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 22:49:09 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:49:09 -0000 Subject: Last names vs First. (was: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83527 Mandy: > Teachers will call a student by their last name as a measure of > the childs lower status. First names indicate familiarity. Just > as students will call a teacher Miss or Sir or Professor to show > the teachers higher status. > Another good example is Professor Snape calling Professor > Lupin 'Lupin' through out PoA showing he thinks very little of > Remus. Interestingly almost everyone calls Lupin 'Lupin' perhaps > because of his part animal nature puts him below the full humans. Well, you have to remember that Lupin was once a professor. Do you think they call Dumbledore Dumbledore because he's lower than them? They don't say Professor, because they're not talking TO them. They've never really said "Remus" because, for the whole first year that they knew him, he was "Professor Lupin". After that, it was just Lupin because they never called him Remus. If McGonagall retired, they wouldn't suddenly start calling her "Minerva". They're just not used to it. They call Sirius "Sirius" because there was never a time that he was "higher" in status. (like a professor) ~~nkittyhawk From purple_801999 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 03:30:58 2003 From: purple_801999 at yahoo.com (purple_801999) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:30:58 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83528 Jeff wrote: > Also, being rather old-fashioned, I'd guess that the school > wouldn't use hotwater bottles, but rather do it the old way, with the > heated briquets in the pan instead. Rubber is too much of a muggle > invention for them to use, imho. But I could be wrong. It sounds as if they use heating pans. I think I remember in GoF Harry being grateful the beds were pre warmed by the house elves with heating pans. It's not so much that a hotwater bottle is too muggleish but that a heating pan warms a bed better. A hotwater bottle really only warms a small area of a bed unless kept against a person. A heating pan would get the whole bed toasty. Olivia From dwoodward at towson.edu Sat Oct 25 03:42:26 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Deirdre F Woodward) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:42:26 -0400 Subject: So what happened to the unicorn blood curse? References: <1067046148.9426.64671.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000901c39aaa$037939e0$79092244@parkvl01.md.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83529 I just finished SS/PS (for the ???? time) and was struck by the whole unicorn blood plot line. First, Firenze tells Harry "It is a monstrous thing, to slay a unicorn [. . .] The blood of a unicorn will keep you alive, even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price. You have slain something pure and defenseless to save yourself and you will have but a half life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips." (PS, Brit ed., paper, pg 188). Harry asks "But who'd be that desperate?" to which Firenze responds: "Can you think of nobody who has waited many years to return to power [. . .]?" to which Harry replies "Do you mean [. . . ] that was Vol-" [he's then cut off by Hermionie shouting to him] Later in the book, Voldemort tells Harry, "Unicorn blood has strengthened me, these past weeks . . . you saw faithful Quirrell drinking it for me in the forest" (PP, Brit ed., paper, pg 213). So what gives? Did Quirrell drink the blood? Did Voldemort? If Quirrell was drinking the blood, how come we never saw the effects of "a half life, a cursed life" in Quirrell? He evidenced no cursed behavior throughout the book, other than the long-time possession by Voldemort (I'm not drawing a distinction between pre-inhabited Quirrell and inhabited Quirrell -- inhabited Quirrell is really no more cursed that pre-inhabited Quirrell. Either way, once he's under the control of Voldemort, he's pretty much cursed). If Quirrell was drinking the blood to sustain Voldemort, does the curse transfer to Voldemort? If so, what are the consequences of that curse? Any thoughts? Deirdre p.s. drove up to Canada to score the brit edition of the books -- I'm having a blast reading them in "British." From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Oct 25 03:55:04 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:55:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) Message-ID: <192.218cc7fc.2ccb4e18@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83530 In a message dated 10/23/03 11:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu writes: > > I do like the idea of the crests on the robes, but, it is important to > remember > that we don't have evidence that they are there. > > Arya > You are correct that we have no canon for the crests on the robes, but we do have canon that Lupin is partial to Gryffindor, by the fact in POA, when he is drinking the butterbeer with Harry, he toasts to a Gryffindor victory over Ravenclaw, also the fact that McGonagall tells Lupin about the tea leaves and Harry. From what Lupin says and the canon that we have on friendships between the Houses, I would say that Sirius, James, Peter and Remus are all in the same house, same year and that it was Gryffindor. Lavender and Parvati are best friends, Dean and Seamus also, Weasley twins and Lee Jordan, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, Cho and Marietta, very few friendships are cross house, but it doesn't mean that romantic friendships are in the same house. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 03:57:54 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:57:54 -0000 Subject: Percy Ignatius Weasley In-Reply-To: <008301c39a5b$00b3f140$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83531 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says St. Ignatius founded the Jesuits, famous not only for education and logic, but also for epitomizing, to the anti-Catholic establishment in power at the time the wizarding wardrobe seems to have come into fashion, Papish superstition. It never occurred to me before, but maybe this is one of JKR's references. (Yeah, and the schools with the black-robed teachers and the repressed sexuality -- if that doesn't make me feel 40 years younger!) There's got to be a priest hole in Malfoy manor; the Weasleys, with their hoard of red-headed children, are stereotypically Irish Catholic; Snape is *such* a Jebbie, and MacGonagall *such* a Sister Mary Discipline; if Father Matthias Lynch from my old parish had had more facial hair (and humor), he would have been Dumbledore. Anyway, there probably *is* religion in the WW: not in the sense of deep abiding faith or the relationship of the individual to his community or his God, but in the sense of where a baby makes its white-lace debut, or where your wedding is held, or when the stores are closed, or what you call the winter holiday. --JDR From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat Oct 25 05:08:48 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:08:48 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83532 Kneasy wrote: > A bit of devious thinking - that act that frees Dobby. The sock does > not belong to Malfoy; he does not even touch it, only the diary. Why > should a sock from a stranger have this significance? But if Harry is > family then Dobby's cry of "Harry Potter set Dobby free!" has real > significance, because unless he is family he can't possibly set Dobby > free, only Malfoy can. And I don't believe unknowingly giving a sock > from a stranger would do the trick. The real question is what the "trick" is that sets a house elf free. Is a house elf bound to a family by some magical contract, which is broken by the giving of clothes, or is a house elf's servitude or lack thereof entirely self-imposed? I tend to think it is the latter. Steve (I beleive) wrote a week or two ago about the differences between freedom from servitude and freedom for oppression. I agree with him that freeing elves from their duties would be cruel. House elves enjoy work; they feel very strongly that it is their duty to serve wizards. I don't equate this with them feeling inferior to wizards. Instead, I think it is something similar to a religious work ethic. Several religions in the real world hold the belief that hard manual labor is a way of showing dedication to God and imporving oneself. To be a good little elf, not in a subservient, impress-your-master way, but rather a reach-my-full-potential way, each elf must work hard and serve his or her family. Based on this idea, I think the rules governing house elves (can't disobey family, only free if given clothes, etc.) are entirely voluntary. This leads to the rather blurry guidelines for the rules. For example, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping Dobby from visiting Harry at home or at Hogwarts. The only direct punishment he seems to receive is self-inflicted. Apparently, he could leave the Malfoys for good at any time, but he knows the rules and therefore returns. However, he desperately wants to leave, and so the Malfoys are very careful not to let him have anything resembling clothes for fear he will leap at the opportunity. In the end, an inadvertantly tossed sock that Malfoy possessed for all of one second was enough to free Dobby. Would it have been enough to release another elf? Porbably not. Most elves would see it as an accidental occurence, not intentional giving of clothes, and would therefore continue in service. Winky, it seems, was given a much more obvious message. Crouch tells her in no uncertain terms that she will be receiving clothes as punishment, and then she is presented with an entire outfit (I'm assuming that the skirt, blouse, and hat she later wears at Hogwarts were given by Crouch). Given Crouch's fury and desperation at the situation, I doubt these were a going-away present. No, Crouch was making sure that Winky, who would like nothing better than to remain in his service, could not possibly see the gesture as anything but a giving-of-clothes. The can't-disobey-the-family rule seems equally open to each elf's interpretation. Obviously, the intent of the family member is irrelevant; Kreacher knew perfectly well that Sirius was not giving him permission to visit Narcissa. However, the words could be twisted that way, and that was the only permission Kreacher needed. Dobby showed the same ability to spin words to suit the no disobediance rule when he said the danger at Hogwarts had nothing to do with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. He was able to argue to himself that he was telling the truth, and that seems to have been the only standard he had to meet. In light of your comments, I am still mystified as to why exactly Dobby is so loyal to Harry. However, I think, once he had decided upon this loyalty, his only barrier to action was his own beliefs. The same holds for Kreacher. Both elves have shown that there are no concrete regulations governing house elf enslavement, only their own beliefs and customs, both of which can be circumvented without much trouble. -Corinth, who is getting more and more intigued by the house elf plotliness From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 24 00:30:30 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:30:30 -0500 Subject: Droobles anagrams / Pumpkin juice / Percy Ignatius Weasley References: Message-ID: <007601c399c6$469bdd20$cb91aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83533 Droobles anagrams Jen: > As someone who just spent a week trying to make an anagram out > of Droobles Best Blowing Gum, I'd say any message in the name is > very well hidden! (Jen waves to hermionegallo for getting her hooked > on anagrams ). Iggy here: Well, here's a couple of interesting anagrams for "Droobles" (I used an anagram site for all these...) BOD LOSER (Hmmm... LV lost his bod.. didn't he? *grin*) BE DROOLS BE LORD SO And for the entire name: BLUBBERED GIG MOLT SONS OW BLUBBERED GIG LOON MS STOW (Well, aside from "gig", they're stowing a blubbering Ms. Longbottom in a loony bin.) BLUBBERED GIG OWL TOMS SON BLUBBERED GOING LOST MS OW BLUBBERED SIGN GLOOM TWOS BLUBBERED SIGN GLOOMS TWO BLUBBERED GIT GLOMS SON OW BLUBBERED GLOOM SONG WITS BLUBBERED GOWNS GO I'M LOST (Here's a nice and potentially significant one... The Longbottoms are blubbering in their hospital gowns because they're lost...NOTE: Blubbering can mean crying, or nonsensical...) BIBBED SMUGGLERS LOON TWO BIBBED SMUGGLER LOON STOW After starting with the word "Bibbed", the list kinda cut out... Make of these what you will... I'll try to find more... Pumpkin Juice Arya: > Anyone got a recipe for Pumpkin juice? Yeah... Squeeze a pumpkin REALLY hard. *yeesh* Percy Ignatius Weasley Mary Jo: > I was surprised to find out that Percy's middle name is Ignatius. > This is disclosed during the hearing conducted by Umbridge concerning > Harry's fighting off the dementors. I have puzzled over the significance > of his middle name, and have a few ideas, but am unsure if any of them > are correct. I would love to hear what everyone else thinks. >>> Oops... I forgot to mention that I grew up with Arthur Weasley and Percy's middle name is in honor of me. I am his godfather... Sorry... (And, sufficed to say, am very disappointed with his behavior lately. I had hoped he'd turn out more like Fred and George... Especially considering my influence. Ah well... such is life.) *grin* Ignatius Pallandramius McSnurd... aka "Iggy McSnurd" From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 23:02:50 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:02:50 -0000 Subject: Percy Ignatius Weasley In-Reply-To: <008301c39a5b$00b3f140$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83534 Mary Jo wrote: > I was surprised to find out that Percy's middle name is Ignatius. I have puzzled over the significance of his middle name, and have a few ideas, but am unsure if any of them are correct. > 2. Could St. Ignatius of Loyola be somehow a model for Percy? I know that St. Ignatius of Loyola was originally a soldier, and when he was an invalid from wounds received during battle, he read a book about the life of a saint, and decided to try to be a saint himself. Does this part of his life represent ambitious Percy? St. Ignatius later said that the biggest and most important thing he had to learn was humility. Are we going to see Percy humbled? Or is he in reality already an undercover spy? The order St. Ignatius did institute became famous for its excellent education and teaching of logic. Perhaps this is an indication that Percy will end up as the teacher at Hogwarts. >>> ~~~ ~~FINALLY, SOMEBODY WITH THE SAME OBSESSION! I swear I've looked up everyone's name, but Ignatius seems to stick out in my mind. All I can find is that Ignatius was a martyred bishop who protected his people from persecution and ended up thrown to the lions by the emperor. All in all, I think it generally means Percy's gonna die saving someone - possibly his family. I honestly think he's going to redeem himself somewhere in the series, and doing it for his family's safety would make it all the more tear-jerking and stuff. Oh, and also, there's like a St. Ignatius day or something on Feb. 1st. Maybe something will happen Feb 1st in the book, who knows? *must also ponder Dumbledore's MANY MANY MANY middle names* ~~nkittyhawk From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Oct 25 05:31:30 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:31:30 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy Ignatius Weasley In-Reply-To: <008301c39a5b$00b3f140$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: <3F9A9752.831.3BF33B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 83535 On 24 Oct 2003 at 14:16, Mary Jo Neyer wrote: > 2. Could St. Ignatius of Loyola be somehow a model for Percy? I know > that St. Ignatius of Loyola was originally a soldier, and when he was > an invalid from wounds received during battle, he read a book about > the life of a saint, and decided to try to be a saint himself. Does > this part of his life represent ambitious Percy? St. Ignatius later > said that the biggest and most important thing he had to learn was > humility. Are we going to see Percy humbled? Or is he in reality > already an undercover spy? The order St. Ignatius did institute became > famous for its excellent education and teaching of logic. Perhaps > this is an indication that Percy will end up as the teacher at > Hogwarts. Ooh, I like this idea - speaking as someone who the Jesuits educated in secondary school, and as someone who would really like to see Percy come good - I like Percy, or at least I did until Order of the Phoenix, and I hate the idea he may be a real traitor. To me, his reaction when he thought Ron could have been at risk of drowning in Goblet of Fire, is the only thing that has given me hope. I know kids who 'relate' to Percy - who saw in him, bits of themselves (I did as well, but Hermione was a closer match for me, if we ignore the gender difference) and who are quite concerned at the way he seems to be now. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 04:38:27 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:38:27 -0000 Subject: JKR's scary little plan Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83536 I decided interviews are as valid as canon, so I went to read them and... well... I don't know. >From interviews: Interviewer: "Why stop at seven books when you could make up Harry's whole life?" JKR: "I notice you're very confident that he's not going to die!" Interviewer: "I love the idea of Harry getting older, do you think you might be tempted to write books about Harry when he is working and has a family of his own?" JKR: "Hmmmmmm... yet another person who is convinced I'm not going to kill him off! Where you people get the idea I'm soft-hearted I don't know. I'm joking. Or am I?" Heh. I thought it was funny at first, but then I tried to put myself in her shoes to figure out what in the world she is thinking. Okay, so I imagine myself as an author who has absolutely no intention of killing my main character... so why evade all these questions if it's a simple yes or no question? Now, if I were her, and I was going to kill Harry (I really don't mean to make her sound like a murderer, you know what I mean) then I would find myself in a dilemma. I can't say yes because, well, I can't write about his future when he isn't alive, and I can't say no, because then people will want to know why. She makes it sound like she's throwing us off, just so we can say "she's throwing us off," and ignore it. But, I mean, what if she meant it? I know this all ties in with the prophecy and all that, but once he kills Voldemort, he isn't "immortal" anymore. The prophecy was fully fulfilled. Voldemort died at Harry's hands - and now he has to face the death eaters. I'm not saying it will end tragically like that or anything - of course it would be heroic. He would probably die saving someone (that is, if he does die). Yes, the whole thing about Trelawney's prediction of Harry's 'death' by seeing the grim was all a joke - but why would JKR put that in there? Why death? She has a great way of keeping us from noticing big clues. Maybe this is one of those cases? This is not really a theory - because, quite honestly, I don't want to believe it. ____nkittyhawk... please prove me wrong! From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 04:43:25 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:43:25 -0000 Subject: Bode's madness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83537 If Bode's madness is due to touching an orb, it can't be Harry's. JKR writes OoP p. 779, "Ron was pointing at one of the small glass spheres that glowed with a dull inner light, though it was very dusty and appeared not to have been touched for many years." Umm... didn't Bode touch it only a few months ago? If Bode DIDN'T touch the Prophecy, then what made him go mad? I think it might be a flint - but something tells me it isn't. Has someone already discussed this? __nkittyhawk From silver_owl_01 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 05:02:43 2003 From: silver_owl_01 at yahoo.com (silver_owl_01) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:02:43 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: <192.218cc7fc.2ccb4e18@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83538 Batchevra: > we do have canon that Lupin is partial to Gryffindor, by the fact in POA, when he is drinking the butterbeer with Harry, he toasts to a Gryffindor victory over Ravenclaw, also the fact that McGonagall tells Lupin about the tea leaves and Harry. From what Lupin says and the canon that we have on friendships between the Houses, I would say that Sirius, James, Peter and Remus are all in the same house, same year and that it was Gryffindor. > > Lavender and Parvati are best friends, Dean and Seamus also, Weasley twins and Lee Jordan, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, Cho and Marietta, very few friendships are cross house, but it doesn't mean that romantic friendships are in the same house. >>> I'm sure someone must've noticed, but in PoA Sirius knows exactly were the entrance into the Gryffindor Tower was. He couldn't have found out by following a Gryffindor there because it would have been of the esence to avoid been seen by someone, and also, the little detail that after 12 years in Azkaban he had no way of knowing which students were in each house, so he wouldn't have known who to follow, and couldn't find out without exposing himself to being discovered. Even in the remote case that he'd been able to follow one, then he sould've been able to overhear the password and there wouldn't have been any reason to attack the Fat Lady. As we saw in CoS only the members of each house know how to get there. That would imply that Black was a Gryffindor, or at least had a friend who was close enough to him to betray the trust and reveal where the entrance was. I have the impresion from the books that access to the common room of every house is a closely kept secret. If my memory doesn't fail me, we've never seen people from other houses being invited over. I very much doubt that if the marauders had been in Slytherin, or any other house for that matter, they would have known were the entrance was. The fact that Sirius went straight to the Fat Lady's portrait indicates that he was a Gryffindor, and since I find very difficult to belive that so strong a friendship could've emerged from people in different houses, is logical to assume that James, Lupin and Pettigrew were too. "silver_owl_01" From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 05:59:58 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:59:58 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83539 "silver_owl_01" wrote: >I'm sure someone must've noticed, but in PoA Sirius knows exactly were the entrance into the Gryffindor Tower was. He couldn't have found out by following a Gryffindor there because it would have been of the esence to avoid been seen by someone, and also, the little detail that after 12 years in Azkaban he had no way of knowing which students were in each house, so he wouldn't have known who to follow, and couldn't find out without exposing himself to being discovered. Even in the remote case that he'd been able to follow one, then he sould've been able to overhear the password and there wouldn't have been any reason to attack the Fat Lady.< I tend to believe that MWPP were all in Gryffindor. However, I do need to point out that Sirius need not have been in Gryffindor to know how to get to Gryffindor Tower. As one of the creators of the Marauder's Map, and a friend of invisibility cloak wielding James Potter, he would know perfectly well where it was. Even if none of them were in Gryffindor, I'm sure those young explorers would have made a point of finding out where all the dorms for the hoses were located. KathyK From silver_owl_01 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 05:20:20 2003 From: silver_owl_01 at yahoo.com (silver_owl_01) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:20:20 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83540 Kneasy wrote: > > Why should a sock from a stranger have this significance? But if Harry is family then Dobby's cry of "Harry Potter set Dobby free!" has real significance, because unless he is family he can't possibly set Dobby free, only Malfoy can. And I don't believe unknowingly giving a sock from a stranger would do the trick. < < Corinth: > Apparently, he could leave the Malfoys for good at any time, but he > knows the rules and therefore returns. However, he desperately wants > to leave, and so the Malfoys are very careful not to let him have > anything resembling clothes for fear he will leap at the opportunity. > In the end, an inadvertantly tossed sock that Malfoy possessed for all > of one second was enough to free Dobby. Would it have been enough to > release another elf? Probably not. Most elves would see it as an > accidental occurence, not intentional giving of clothes, and would > therefore continue in service. =================================================================== Were forgeting a little detail. In OotP Sirius says that almost all the pureblood wizard families are interconnected by marriage or blood, the most fanatically racist more than any, given how few choices there were available for marriage. Every pureblood is probably related in one degree or another to every other. Given how inbred the purebloods must be, it's not too far fetched to assume that James could've been related to the Malfoys in some degree, hence Dobby could justify himself about going to Harry. "silver_owl_01" From sandrranch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 05:31:54 2003 From: sandrranch at yahoo.com (S & R Ranch) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:31:54 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83541 "S & R Ranch" wrote: > > I have been wondering where were Mr & Mrs Weasley when Sirius, > > Lupin Tonks, Moody & the others came to Harry & the others rescue > > at the MOM? Her "wonderful clock" (as DD put it)would have shown > > Mrs W. that 2 of her children were in mortal danger! So why would > > the parents not come to the aid of their own children? DeeDee: > I simply figured that they were still residing at OOP headquarters > and left the clock at the burrow so when sign of trouble came...1. > Snape only mentioned Harry initially. 2. Molly went to check the > clock and family(George and Fred if still residing there) at the > burrow. and 3. Arthur still not fully healed from previous attack > stayed at head quarters. Thanks DeeDee, I did not even consider how much time might have or have not passed between Arthur getting out of the hospital along with how much more he had left until fully recovered. I thought of the clock and Molly being home because of Dumbledore's mentioning it when Arthur was first attacked. So I figured she would be spending time at home when ever her duties with the OOP took her elsewhere. I never thought of her as being the Order's cook, to me cooking, along with cleaning the house was simply something she would be doing while she was there. After all she was the only female there who seemed capable of cooking. It was part of Molly's nature to make sure everyone had a good meal and clean surroundings when ever she was around. (Tonks is female, but I can just see a kettle of stew flying across the kitchen as she trips over something! I doubt I would be letting her cook either! LOL!) I was also thinking along the lines that Fred & George would be living perhaps over their shop, but then again it is possible they could be living back at "The Burrow" since they seemed to get along well with both their parents even when their Mother was pushed to her limit by their escapades. I did wonder why the Weasley's son Bill was not part of the rescue group, but then we have never heard much about his actual "fighting skills" although we do know he was an excellent student. I also would like to offer my apology to this group.... I did not intend for my post to stir up any sort of disagreement and was very surprised that my post was treated with the hint of worthlessness it recieved from one of the forum members. I thought this forum was created for discussion about the Harry Potter series and to have fun speculating about the different characters, situations, what is to come in the next books as well as the ending of the series. I agree that only JK Rowling knows the who, what, when, wheres and WHYS of anyone, anything and ALL that happens in her books. It doesn't matter what we think happened or will happen as well as why it happens. Mrs Rowling created these characters and the story and NO ONE here knows why anyone does what they do or why anything has and will happen. I did not realize members of this forum has to be a member of Mensa to join in the discussion. So I will simply go back to lurking until I have something intellectually challenging and worthy to contribute. Wishing everyone here GREAT READING....! "S & R Ranch" From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 07:01:35 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 07:01:35 -0000 Subject: Bode's madness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > If Bode's madness is due to touching an orb, it can't be Harry's. > > JKR writes OoP p. 779, > "Ron was pointing at one of the small glass spheres that > glowed with a dull inner light, though it was very dusty and > appeared not to have been touched for many years." > > Umm... didn't Bode touch it only a few months ago? If Bode DIDN'T > touch the Prophecy, then what made him go mad? > Sue B: I work in a library. Believe me, dust gathers very quickly. Hey, there's usually a layer of dust on the bookshelves in my own *home* and I dust them regularly! :-) No reason why the orb couldn't have gathered dust in that amount of time, if it is the reason for Bode's madness. From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 07:03:14 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 07:03:14 -0000 Subject: Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83543 83324 Talisman, who suspects the subject line is ready for updating, but doesn't want to make the thread too hard to follow, adds: Annemehr now: One area that I've snipped out but still have a question, though: V seems to think it's not *possible* -- "even I cannot touch him there (GoF, p. 657)." I still wonder why he believes that, if OoP seems to tell us that the protection is only good inside the house. Talisman now: I think the answer is Mad-eye Moody. Let's review: V IS rather vague about what he means on GoF page 657. I'm not sure what he really believes. After all, his main purpose in the graveyard is to convince the DE's that he is back in power and all- knowing. He may be more interested in bragging that he knows DD's plans (and so how to thwart them) than anything else. Nevertheless, in saying that he cannot touch Harry "there"/"in his relations' care" he suggests plural care-giver relations and a larger--though undefined--geographic area, both of which are refuted by DD's explanation in OoP. We have other evidence demonstrating V's lack of information. We know V wouldn't have AK'd Lily if he had anticipated any empowerment/ sacrificial blood protection coming from it. And, by Spring 1992, he still hadn't figured out the inherent value of the sacrifice because neither he nor Quirrell foresaw the burning power of Harry's touch. V may not have cared about Q's life, per se, but he needed Q alive and equipped with hands that could possess the SS and perform the immortal body spell. When Q pointed out the burn damage to his hands, V screeched "Then kill him, fool, and be done!" (SS 295) Not, "I don't care, just get the stone, Stumpy." It seems V is basically ignorant regarding the consequences of Godric's Hollow, and whatever information he does have comes from secondary sources. So where does V get his information? Reviewing V's informational opportunities involves the premise that, between Godric's Hollow and GoF, V's only trip back to England was the one via Quirrell in SS. Pippin has argued otherwise, but, though I think the canon is against her, I'll address that in a separate response to her post. Here, I'll work from the foundation that VaporMort languished as a useless rat malady in Albania from Godric's Hollow 1980 to Spring/Summer 1991(SS), and then again from Spring 1992 to Summer 1994(GoF). As above, I don't think Quirrell, or anyone whose confidence he enjoyed, had any relevant information. Frankly, DD doesn't tell anyone anything unless they are elite members of the Order and need the information to complete a mission, or when dissemination of information, true or otherwise, will provoke actions conducive to his plans. The Weasley's don't seem to know why Harry (supposedly) has to return to the Dursleys each summer. If Molly was *in* on the protection story, she wouldn't have asked DD to let Harry skip Privet Drive at the end of GoF, just when V had his body and his DE's back and seemingly posed more of a threat than at any time since 1980. (GoF 717-18) When she tells Ron that DD said "No," and that they'll just have to trust DD because he "has his reasons," the sense is that she is in the dark too, not just withholding information. In fact, we see in SS that DD doesn't give the *protection* explanation to McG or Hagrid when they are upset about leaving Harry at Privet Drive in the first place. If he's not telling McG, Hagrid or the Weasley's I don't think DD is telling the MoM, either. So, although V had contact with Jorkins and Crouch Sr. before the graveyard scene, I don't favor them as sources. Wormtail would have had access to Harry and Ron's conversations about what happened in SS, so he could relate what Harry knew via DD about Lily's blood (How clever of DD to tell Harry that part, knowing Harry would tell Ron, whose little pocket *pet* just happened to be destined for a trip to Albania. Just the right information to whet the Stone-deprived V's appetite for Harry`s *special* blood.) But Wormtail doesn't have any information regarding *relative* protection. Still, Wormtail helps V regain a "rudimentary body" (with the unicorn blood/Nagini venom potion) and V starts plotting how to get Harry`s blood for his "true rebirth," (GoF 656) with the hapless Jorkins supplying the path. In the course of events, Wormtail and V free Crouch Jr., brew up a little polyjuice, and head for Chez Moody. After a noisy scuffle, they incapacitate Moody, but keep him packed up under an Imperius Curse, not only for hair snippets, but to pump him for info (so they can fool DD, ha!) There it is. Poor Imperius-ed Moody, I think, is your source for what V knows about any relational protections. And just what DOES Moody know? Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I think DD foresaw/planned that Moody would be the target for V & Co., so I expect Moody knew just what DD wanted V to know. You see how one thing just keeps leading to another. We'll have to rehash all of GoF *in light of OoP* before this is over. Annemehr: Okay, now on to the back-and-forth from the thread: ---------------------------------------------------- > Talisman wrote: > According to DD, the charm that uses the blood link between > sacrificed one/home owner/shield beneficiary is "the strongest > shield" he could give Harry. (OoP 836). Either DD is lying, or > there is no equivalent Plan B. Annemehr: Well...I just think the rune charm/sacrifice/blood protection *was* the plan B, available in case the Fidelius Charm failed (and I agree that a man as wise as DD would know better than to rely completely on Fidelius). Talisman: Well, since I think that Harry has been stuck at the Dursley's for reasons other that protection, I'm not as likely to see it as a back- up protection plan. I think DD's greater plan, which is not a Keep-Harry-Safe plan, required/requires that V 1)be reduced from his 1980 capacity, 2)be reconstituted in a mortal form with a little dab of Harry/Lily`s Love-blood 3)have a big final showdown in an arena the bridges with the Muggle World, in this case, Privet Drive. The Fidelius just doesn't do all that. ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- Back to the tangential, but fun, subject of the Flesh, Blood and Bone potion: > > Annemehr wrote: > > Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy ingredient. > > > > Talisman replied: > > Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too. (GoF 8-9; 656) But LV > (and DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it > took his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a > plan which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated. > > Annemehr next: > Yes, V *wanted* to use Harry. Really, really, really badly. V > believes he has certain advantages by using him. But, he didn't > *need* him. > > Talisman next: > Sure, he could have used other blood and just put up with having his > body burnt like Quirrell's if Harry got him in another SS grip. But, > there was no way he'd do that as long as he had ANY means of getting > at Harry. He doesn't just want a body, he wants a body that's going > to defeat his fated adversary. And for that, he *needs* Harry's > blood. Free will or not, it was eminently predictable that LV would > go for Harry's blood. Annemehr now: Yes, that is true. But the reason for the gleam *does* exist. So it would follow from this that V really, really *should have* wanted or needed *not* to use Harry. Either that, or V at once *both* needed to use Harry and not to use him. :-P once again, from V's point of view! Talisman now: As we've been discussing above, V doesn't seem to understand the implications of Lily's blood any further than someone else (funneling DD's version of the info) tells him. DD is gleaming because he understands what V clearly does not. Since V doesn't have a clue, the ways in which Harry's blood will ultimately work against him are not a factor in his selection process. Annemehr now: Am I seeing a pattern here? 1) If V cannot overcome the Fidelius Charm, the Potters are protected, though confined. If V does overcome the Fidelius Charm, V is vaporised and Lily and James are dead, but Harry, at least, is even better protected. Talisman now: DD's plan is not about keeping Harry safe, and the Fidelius in no way replaces the many (if not 12) uses of Lily/Harry's blood. Annemehr now: 2) If V fails to get Harry for the resurrection potion and uses someone else, he gets his old body back but still cannot touch Harry. If V is successful in getting Harry for the potion, he doesn't have to worry about touching Harry, but DD now has the "gleam" factor to work with. Talisman now: With V working (unwittingly) in concert with DD, there is just no way he wouldn't get Harry's blood. DD would have shipped him a flask under anonymous cover, if it came to that. Moreover, DD's goal isn't to avoid Voldmortian touching--which is hardly the greatest threat to Harry--or even to keep Harry safe. His goal does include V's final retirement, which requires the inclusion of that lovey-dovey blood in V's body. There is no acceptable Plan B. Annemehr: Dumbledore brilliantly makes everything a two-edged sword for Voldemort. There's contingency planning for you! I wonder if this strategy will become apparent in other areas? I will think about that in the context of Harry's learning Occlumency or not... Talisman now: Occlumency was strictly about softening Harry's mind and facilitating the bait vision in a timely manner. Snape did exactly what he was supposed to do. Dumbledore certainly is brilliant, and his sword is sharp. It cuts with every pass. ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- > Talisman before: > > d) the voice [during priori incantatem, in the graveyard], > "almost as though a friend were speaking in his > ear" that advises H (664); > > Annemehr answered: > It's not a voice. It's the phoenix song, which was the sound he > connected to DD and it was *almost* as though a friend was speaking > in his ear. Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart, and > strikes fear into the evil. And when Harry answered, he answered the > *music.* > > Talisman next: > That's quite poetic, but Harry didn't answer, he followed advice. > > He responded to something that sounds a lot like telepathy to me. A > song that gives hope is one thing, an internal voice that sounds > like Dumbledore and gives good, specific advice is another. Annemehr now: It depends on how you interpret the voices Harry "hears" in his head. I've always interpreted them as his own "inner voice" (even when it sounds like Hermione's -- that one's somwhere in OoP) rather than something magical. It's like my own inner voice I often hear (um, should I be admitting that?). Talisman now: I'm not familiar with any events analogous to the graveyard voice, could you point me to any cites or post #'s? Annemehr now: And if Snape is in the graveyard helping Harry (something I agree is possible), how would he get Dumbledore's voice into Harry's head? Talisman now: I don't spend a lot of time worrying about *how* DD could provide advice. In a world where sound is recorded and relayed in items like Howlers and Prophecy Orbs, a world where invisible-on-demand-DD can whip up a portkey faster than tuna salad, a world of two-way mirrors, Legilimens and *special* means of rapid communication between members of the Order, heaven knows how many explanations there could be for the presence of DD's voice. Certainly, Snape needn't be the source. Annemehr: Though I do take your point that "Don't break the connection" is very specific, it would be an obvious reaction even to Harry -- it's preventing LV from trying to curse him again. Talisman: I'm not sure that the instinctual reaction wouldn't be to break and run. Though I grant you that the fact that Voldie seems unhappy *would* be encouraging. Still, it would be rather horrific, staring into that nasty reptilian face with the DE's seething all around you, and you`d have the sense pretty quickly that you couldn`t stand there forever. If you didn't think you had any better spell to use than _Expelliarmus_ (Though may I point out to those who bash Snape as a teacher that Harry has the Potions Master to thank for this life- saving move) your best bet would be to count on the element of surprise and run for it while Voldie still had that astonished look on his face. And, it's handy that the advice came right at the time when holding on was becoming really hard to do, what with the powerful shuddering, and beads of golden light sliding toward him, and his wand so hot he thought it would burst into flames. If the advice were just Harry's internal monologue, I'm surprised we didn't hear any second-guessing. And, again, as in the my last post, I wouldn't discount the fact that JKR has given us a nudge toward seeing extra protection by previously educating us about the parameters of the Reverse Spell. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ > Talisman wrote: [...] > You also have to join the Graveyard Scene to the rest of the book. > If you take all the evidence in GoF that DD planned for the > Graveyard Scene and was totally on to Fake!Moody, it negates the > possibility that he didn't have protections in place. Annemehr: I missed the evidence that DD was on to Fake!Moody -- and I haven't read GoF yet since you first said that he was. When exactly did DD catch on? Are you asserting he knowingly send Fake!Moody into the Forest to search for Crouch Sr. (and murder him), or is this event what tipped him off? Talisman: DD was on to Fake!Moody before he showed up at Hogwarts. We'll have to start at the beginning in a new thread about GoF. (Though now I'm never going to get to my Snape stuff, let alone the Cult of the Severed Head business. If analysis of one scene can evoke so many questions, a book's worth will likely entangle me for years.) Talisman, who has at least three other posts to get out before we start all that. From phoenixfeder2002 at yahoo.de Fri Oct 24 18:16:13 2003 From: phoenixfeder2002 at yahoo.de (=?iso-8859-1?q?Diana=20Fischer?=) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:16:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031024181613.61117.qmail@web25203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83544 Sen wrote: > I didn't see where it said the Order was created (anyone?). > During the time I'm assuming it was created (at least during > Lily & James's 7th yr. Maybe even the year after they got out) > which would be 77/78. ********* (me) I doubt this because this order wasn't created because of the Potters it was created because of Voldemort and after that it was most likely created in year 1970. This say they had the possible to be a member, but weren't. Diana Fischer From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Oct 25 08:28:14 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:28:14 -0000 Subject: Last names vs First. (was: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83545 nkittyhawk: > Mandy: > > Another good example is Professor Snape calling Professor > > Lupin 'Lupin' through out PoA showing he thinks very little of > > Remus. Interestingly almost everyone calls Lupin 'Lupin' perhaps > > because of his part animal nature puts him below the full humans. > > Well, you have to remember that Lupin was once a professor. Do you > think they call Dumbledore Dumbledore because he's lower than them? > They don't say Professor, because they're not talking TO them. > They've never really said "Remus" because, for the whole first year > that they knew him, he was "Professor Lupin". After that, it was > just Lupin because they never called him Remus. If McGonagall > retired, they wouldn't suddenly start calling her "Minerva". They're > just not used to it. They call Sirius "Sirius" because there was > never a time that he was "higher" in status. (like a professor) > I also get the impression that Lupin doesn't use his first name much himself. The first time his first name is mentioned is Sirius calling him Remus in PoA. Sirius & Peter presumably use his first name from their time in Hogwarts together. Dumbledore uses his first name a few times, but he calls everyone by their first name. The only other people calling him Remus are Kingsley, and oddly enough, Tonks. ("Don't call me Nymphadora, *Remus*... it's Tonks." ) It's also notable that no one in their right mind calls Hagrid by his first name. (only Tom Riddle & Ollivander use it)... --Arcum From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 08:42:44 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:42:44 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finduilasmydarkdreamer" wrote: > > I wonder who it is Kreacher called his 'mistress'. Could it be > Narcissa Malfoy, Sirius's relative and thus also part of the family Kreacher has to serve? What do you think? > > SnapesRaven alias FinduilasMyDarkDreamer' Talisman, who knows better, but can't help herself, slips in with a little gasoline for the fire: Kreature is definitely talking to Mistress Narcissa, the only family member he still respects. (OoP 830) Alas, the Sirius sell-out was supposed to happen. But, that's where Kreature's trouble-making ends. If he doesn't like it, he can take the Aunt Elladora retirement plan. Because Narcissa loves Snape. So, it doesn't matter what else Kreature wants to divulge, she'll make him keep his nasty mouth shut. I suspect she can be quite efficient. And, she'll never tell. Malfoy's lapdog indeed. Talisman, who's just suggesting that you all tie on your flame- retardant bustles, before we get to the Manor. From jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 09:58:47 2003 From: jamielynncarlson at hotmail.com (lynnfaragher78) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:58:47 -0000 Subject: the prophet and muggles ie: Petunia Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83547 I would think that the prophet would have a muggle proof charm on it, so that if a muggle were to pick it up it would look just like a "normal" old muggel paper....but to the WW woo hoo the daily prophet..... Lynn From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 25 10:10:00 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:10:00 -0000 Subject: Percy Ignatius Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > << hobby is genealogy, and when I find someone named Ignatius in my > research, the name always means that the family was Roman Catholic > at the time the name was given. > The Sergeant Majorette says > The wizarding wardrobe, with its long medieval robes. It never > occurred to me before, but maybe this is one of JKR's references > [to the Jesuits]. (Yeah, and the schools with the black-robed > teachers and the repressed sexuality -- if that doesn't make me > feel 40 years younger!) Pip!Squeak: Except black gowned teachers and repressed sexuality could be any 'good' UK school up to about 1980. Teachers in the UK 'top' schools would wear a black academic gown over their clothes when teaching. On full formal occasions, they would also wear the coloured hood showing that they had a University degree. As for the 'repressed sexuality' - see the 'No sex please, we're British' thread ;-) The Sergeant Majorette: the Weasleys, with their hoard of red-headed > children, are stereotypically Irish Catholic; Pip!Squeak: No, no, no, no! Please don't fall into that trap. Red hair isn't really stereotypically Irish in the UK. If red hair has any stereotype, it's more Scottish ('Irish' red hair probably got imported from Scotland, or maybe from the Vikings ). But in fact, generations of movement has meant that you find red heads throughout the UK and Ireland. A red headed family just suggests a family of red heads. Honest. I agree that the Weasley's have a Roman Catholic 'feel', what with the large family and giving a child an obvious Saint's name for the middle name. But as I argue in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80008 that doesn't mean Irish Catholic. I dunno what version of the history of the English Reformation you got, ;-) but if it was the one that told you that England went entirely Protestant after the Reformation, then that was an 'oversimplification'. [History speak for 'they lied']. There are a fair amount of Roman Catholics in the modern UK who would trace both their family and their religious denomination back to England or Scotland, and not particularly to Ireland. The Sergeant Majorette: Snape is *such* a > Jebbie, and MacGonagall *such* a Sister Mary Discipline; if Father > Matthias Lynch from my old parish had had more facial hair (and > humor), he would have been Dumbledore. > Pip!Squeak: I also went to a Roman Catholic school for part of my education - Hogwarts feels much more like my multi-denominational non-RC secondary school than my RC school. There are no compulsory masses, for a start ;-) And 'Snape' was a recognised teaching style in the UK, possibly still is (unfair, sarcastic, but gets excellent grades from pupils [largely because his pupils are too terrified to risk failing]). Every school had one (in mine it was 'Ms Snape' ). Likewise McGonagall, who reads 'professional schoolteacher - stern but fair division'. Similarly, Dumbledore reads as 'kindly but just' headmaster, straight out of 'Stalky and Co.'. He hides in his office so much because he is simultaneously trying to work out both how to save the Universe and how to adjust the school timetable so Professor Snape doesn't need a time-turner to teach his Potions lessons this year ;-) The Sergeant Majorette writes: > Anyway, there probably *is* religion in the WW: not in the sense > of deep abiding faith or the relationship of the individual to his > community or his God, but in the sense of where a baby makes its > white-lace debut, or where your wedding is held, or when the > stores are closed, or what you call the winter holiday. Pip!Squeak: If the WW reflects the modern UK, then it will have three quarters of the population with that sort of religion. But I think JKR has chosen not to attact particular 'denominations' to people for a very different reason. Mary Jo wrote: > However, in the WW we don't have any religions, so I don't think > is really relevant... OK, so *why* don't we have any religion in the WW? Why do we not know whether the Weasley's are Roman Catholic, Anglican, not bothered or whatever? Luna talks very firmly about meeting her mother again when she dies herself - but even though that's a religious statement, Luna's religion is not identified. No character in the WW has an identifiable religion. Not one. We're not even sure whether Voldemort is non-religious, or sold-his-soul- to-evil-for-power religious. [Yes, folks, selling your soul to evil in exchange for power is 'religious'. You have to believe in a) a soul and b) an evil supernatural power before you can do it. ;-) ] One of the things JKR is examining in her books is prejudice. One of the major prejudices in the UK-and-Northern-Ireland is religion. Famously in Northern Ireland, less famously but still present in the mainland UK. There are UK cities where you select your football team according to your denomination. I've seen reporters in national magazines announce that X shouldn't have been given that job because they are of Y religion, and that will make them 'biased'. [Insert whichever religion or denomination you like for Y, including atheism. I've seen most of them suggested as 'bias']. So if JKR wants to examine prejudice by *only* using a prejudice specific to the Wizarding World (and having RW prejudices only mentioned in passing by the Dursleys) then she can't use or mention religion. If she mentions (for example) that the Malfoy's have a nominal Protestantism, but the Weasley's are devout Roman Catholics, then most of the UK will not only *expect* the Malfoys and the Weasleys to hate each others guts, but they're quite likely to take sides based on their own background. Similarly with non-Christian religions. She can't use them - readers will bring their own prejudice to the character. Even Voldemort-as- atheist will be seen by some parents as 'religious propaganda' [grin]. So I suspect 'religious characters' are like 'gay characters'. I'm darn sure that they are actually there, but that this particular characteristic will stay firmly in the background of the characterisation. Otherwise, our real life prejudices will get in the way of what JKR actually wants to say. Pip!Squeak From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 12:33:25 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:33:25 -0000 Subject: Droobles anagrams In-Reply-To: <007601c399c6$469bdd20$cb91aec7@rick> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83549 hg replies to Jen Reese and Iggy McSnurd: Jen Reese: > > As someone who just spent a week trying to make an anagram out > > of Droobles Best Blowing Gum, I'd say any message in the name is > > very well hidden! (Jen waves to hermionegallo for getting her hooked on anagrams ). Iggy: > Well, here's a couple of interesting anagrams for "Droobles" (I used an anagram site for all these...) > BLUBBERED GIG MOLT SONS OW > BLUBBERED GIG LOON MS STOW (Well, aside from "gig", they're stowing a blubbering Ms. Longbottom in a loony bin.) > BLUBBERED GIG OWL TOMS SON > BLUBBERED GOING LOST MS OW > BLUBBERED SIGN GLOOM TWOS > BLUBBERED SIGN GLOOMS TWO > BLUBBERED GIT GLOMS SON OW > BLUBBERED GLOOM SONG WITS > BLUBBERED GOWNS GO I'M LOST (Here's a nice and potentially significant one... The Longbottoms are blubbering in their hospital gowns because they're lost...NOTE: Blubbering can mean crying, or nonsensical...) hg: First, thanks for the nod, Jen! Did you or anyone else ever figure out the anagram I wrote? To Iggy (and all): Jen is referring to the fact that I spent about a month working on an anagram for Drooble's Best Blowing Gum. I'm pleased to discover that my brain is far superior to the anagram machine you found, Iggy -- there are a lot more than that, and I got some that are better! (If you're interested, email me, k?) Furthermore, Jen (in another post) made reference to the vast number of important words that can be found in the name of DBBG. I have pages and pages, and found several pretty good anagrams that could possibly have some meaning. RSFJenny never included them in SILK GOWNS, because I believed it couldn't be determined that one anagram was exactly the answer -- *because* there were so many possibilities and there wasn't enough canon at this point to say which one was most likely. As much as I'd like to say conclusively that it is an anagram, and as hard as I tried to do so, I wasn't able to for those reasons... For anyone who is new and wondering about the Drooble's wrappers and the mystery of the Longbottoms, might I again redirect you to search for posts on the Good Ship SILK GOWNS (which floats unassumingly far out on the Theory Bay). hg. From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Oct 25 13:22:28 2003 From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:22:28 -0500 Subject: Book Review: Edmund Kern's "The Wisdom of Harry Potter" Message-ID: <00de01c39afb$0a2ac5f0$4f5ffea9@cq5hs01> No: HPFGUIDX 83550 Hi all -- It slipped my mind until just recently that I never did officially do a book review for Edmund Kern's "The Wisdom of Harry Potter" last summer when I did some other book reviews. At that time, I'd read an advance reading copy, but I didn't think it was good to get people interested in a book that wasn't yet available. It's now quite available, so here goes. **************** In this thoughtful and perceptive work, Edmund Kern sets out a persuasive case that Rowling's Harry Potter novels strongly promote a moral code reflecting many of the ideals of Stoicism. Noting the tension between fate and free will in Rowling's works, Kern demonstrates how Rowling's treatment of this key theme reflects a Stoic outlook: acceptance of what is necessary or dictated by fate (endurance) but active work on behalf of the greater good to the extent possible (exercise of free will to respond to what is within an individual's control and willingness to engage in personal sacrifice). Though Harry is stoical in the face of the adversities life throws his way, he is also Stoic through his recognition of the greater good and his evident display of empathy for his fellow human beings. Kern handily dispels the stereotypes associated with Stoicism and weaves his convincing case for Rowling as an updated modern Stoic throughout his book. Rowling's novels are becoming increasingly more complex in themes and in tone and as Kern clearly recognizes and applauds, the hero, Harry Potter, and his friends are being faced with the opportunities to engage in increasingly higher moral reasoning. Harry and his friends, and by extension, Harry's younger fans, are learning that moral principles do not exist in a vacuum, but are to be applied with a view to both context and balance of sometimes competing and conflicting rules or guidelines. As he emphasizes, Rowling's works depict the "real world" with its many ambiguities in a fantasy setting and thus give children an opportunity to engage in a meaningful dialogue with adults about competing moral principles and the decisions made by Harry and his friends. An advocate of the reader response theory (which holds that a reader interacts with the text, bringing his or her own background and values to bear whenever reading a work of fiction), Kern argues that children are not, any more than adults, merely passive recipients of messages in the books they read. He believes that Rowling's novels are popular with, and accessible to, such a wide range of both children and adults of different backgrounds precisely because they do not promote any particular political or religious message. Many of the outspoken critics of her work are, Kern believes, carrying reader response theory too far in that they are expecting her works to conform to their own particular view of how the world operates or should operate, either from a political or religious lens. Social critics believe Rowling is too conservative in not depicting a world where social issues (gender, racial and class issues for example) have been resolved. But, religious critics believe she is guilty of exactly the opposite: exercising too much imagination in creating her magical world. Kern divides the principle criticisms against the Harry Potter novels into three categories: (i) those who believe that the books promote consumerism; (ii) those who believe the books promote conventional social norms and problems; and (iii) those who object to the books' fanciful depiction of magic. Kern discusses the principal arguments advanced by each of these groups of critics in turn, but the real strength of this section lies in Kern's own sensible reactions to the criticisms. For example, though Kern believes that the books can be read as Christian allegory or strongly promoting a Christian world view through use of Christian symbols even if not explicitly allegorical, this is only one of several viable interpretations in his mind. Symbols, as Kern reminds us, can communicate "multiple and even contradictory meanings." Ultimately, Kern concludes that he does not believe that the Harry Potter novels expressly relate any religious message, Christian or otherwise, but do promote a largely secular Stoic moral code which is consistent with religious moral teaching. Kern delights in Rowling's use of historical fantasy based on a rich cultural heritage of myths and legends. As a historian of witchcraft and religious culture, Kern is particularly adept at addressing the concerns relating to Rowling's depiction of magic in her novels. He has a historian' s keen appreciation for her use of the past in these novels, as each book in the series moves both forward and backward as it reveals to the reader more and more of the "back-story" narrative. Since Rowling admitted in one early interview that she didn't even realize she was writing fantasy literature until fairly far along into the first book, Kern's assertion that she has not conformed to the standards of traditional fantasy literature might not come as much of a surprise to her. Unlike the social and religious critics who would prefer clearly idealistic utopias set in an alternate universe, Kern believes much of the appeal of Harry Potter rests in Rowling's departures from the traditional fantasy genre conventions. Kern has written a thought-provoking and sensitive appraisal of the moral code at work in Rowling's enchanting novels. Kern's reading of the series permits readers to put any number of viable interpretations on the overall message and themes in Rowling's work. His work itself reflects the Stoic virtues it explains through its pragmatic and eminently reasonable discussion of the various criticisms leveled at this wildly popular series. ************** The above was a review I did for his publisher for promotional purposes. This is another great book for the obsessed HP fans of this group, and I highly recommend it. Penny From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 13:36:57 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:36:57 -0000 Subject: JKR's scary little plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83551 Kittyhawk pondered: > Okay, so I imagine myself as an author who has absolutely no > intention of killing my main character... so why evade all these > questions if it's a simple yes or no question? Well, i always thought she liked to play with people's minds. Part of the fun of interview, from what I can see, is the ability to answer a question with a tease and yet still satisfy your audience. Frankly, I found JKR's answer amusing and very satisfying. Mostly because, I don't want to know what she is going to do either. I am glad she did not say, "this is a Children's book, so of course, he will live. He is the hero." That would be no fun to our debates, no would it? :) No, she made her sinister enough to pull it off, but playful enough to tease us with anything is possible. I quite like her. Kittyhawk wrote: > I know this all ties in with the prophecy and all that, but once he > kills Voldemort, he isn't "immortal" anymore. You really think him immortal right now? Do you mean the prophecy is keeping him alive because it is not fulfilled? Are HP prophecies so binding that it supercedes life? If that is true, then Voldemort does not have to find immortality, he already has it. All he has to do is avoid HP...or Neville. :) Bad Dark Lord. He should have been smart with the prophecy and just avoided those two. Then he lives forever. Kittyhawk wrote: >The prophecy was fully fulfilled. Voldemort died at Harry's hands - >and now he has to face the death eaters. I'm not saying it will end >tragically like that or anything - of course it would be heroic. He >would probably die saving someone (that is, if he does die). He could. Before OoP, I would have said Sirius would not have died before having some reconciliation with Snape. Instead, JKR cut his life short, and almost pointlessly right now, making this series very RL. In RL, people die without burying hatches and making atonement or bedside confession. She ripped the comfort rug out from under us (the readers) and made us as timid as Harry is now. We are all alone out there without a genre to really identify with. Heroic tales are not as melancholy and depression as this one is. It is more epic. The hero has the ability to make it through because of his character and gifts. Harry makes it through because of those helping him and sheer luck with a sprinkle of his gifts. Harry is the hero so far, but he is not the typical hero. He spent all of OoP brooding and snapping at people because he did not understand. Errr....I am getting off topic to your post. ::blush:: Sorry. :) What my point was...was to say, yes it would be heroic. And very warming, but if JKR takes that route (Harry dying because he saves someone's life) then I would not expect it to be textbook. In fact, I think it would be a twist that, as we read, we would have never of expected. Often when I read the endings of JKR books, I fully expect Harry to escape because there are more books after...very meta-thinking but honest. In the last book, this safety net is gone, and JKR knows it. And I expect her to enjoy the freedom from it. So I think she replies that way in interviews because she is so looking forward to the freedom of the book being the last one. Then all gloves are off and she can really write as she wills. Bet the book will be seven inches thick though... > Yes, the whole thing about Trelawney's prediction of Harry's 'death' > by seeing the grim was all a joke - but why would JKR put that in > there? Why death? Because when Trelawney predicted the death in PoA (and again in GoF), Harry had a murder attempt at the tender age of one. In PS/SS, he had a run in with a troll and with Quirrelmort. Run in with a basilisk the next year. Then in PoA, he had a werewolf as a teacher, slammed into the whomping willow, and an ex-convict after him (as far as she knew...granted if she was a real seer she would have know Sirius was not after him but Peter...) Frankly, she is not predicting his death, she is going with the odds. Kittyhawk wrote: >She [JKR] has a great way of keeping us from noticing big clues. >Maybe this is one of those cases? Possibly. It is so hard to say what is a clue and what is just there. Maybe Trelawney is not as much a fraud as everyone thinks. Given that JKR's identify characters of McGonagall and Hermione completely denounce Trelawney, I don't see JKR putting that much credit to Trelawney. Melody From artcase at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 14:56:19 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:56:19 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > "silver_owl_01" wrote: > > >I'm sure someone must've noticed, but in PoA Sirius knows exactly > were the entrance into the Gryffindor Tower was....(snip)... However, I do > need to point out that Sirius need not have been in Gryffindor to > know how to get to Gryffindor Tower. As one of the creators of the > Marauder's Map, and a friend of invisibility cloak wielding James > Potter, he would know perfectly well where it was. Even if none of > them were in Gryffindor, I'm sure those young explorers would have > made a point of finding out where all the dorms for the hoses were > located. > > KathyK What IF... the marauders were from different houses? I know it is a bit of a stretch, but, bear with me. Say the four met on the train to Hogwarts their first year and shared a cabin. They were separated during the sorting ceremony, Lupin to Gryfindor, Sirus to Slytherin, James to Ravenclaw, and Peter to Hufflepuff(because he does not possess the drive that seems to be inherent for Slytherin and the courage for Gryfindor, or the wits for Ravenclaw). DD encouraged and helped the friendship in desire to cultivate cross house friendships. Their main contact was through the nightly romps with Lupin. Art From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 15:11:53 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:11:53 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theultimatesen" wrote: I figure it's pretty obvious why they weren't in the order. Their hands were tied up with the babies. First priority at that time. Laura: Sorry, not buying. Having young children didn't stop the Potters or the Longbottoms from being active Order members-I know the Weasleys had a bunch more than either of those couples but still. There were tasks to be done for the Order that didn't necessarily involve imminent danger. That's what Arthur is doing a lot of now-gathering info from within the MOM. Anyhow, not being in the Order didn't mean you were safe from LV-and we know that the Weasleys have a reputation for not taking their pureblood status too seriously. From pegruppel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 16:05:48 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:05:48 -0000 Subject: Droobles anagrams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83554 RSFJenny never included them in SILK GOWNS, because I believed it couldn't be determined that one anagram > was exactly the answer -- *because* there were so many possibilities > and there wasn't enough canon at this point to say which one was most > likely. As much as I'd like to say conclusively that it is an > anagram, and as hard as I tried to do so, I wasn't able to for those > reasons... Now Peg: I'll vouch for the depth and completeness of Sally's anagrams! I've read through them, tried a few of my own, *and* tried looking for a cypher code in Drooble's Best Blowing Gum. If anyone else tries it, I suggest that you get a few gallons of your favorite beverage and lock all the doors. It'll take a while . . . We've become pretty well convinced (see SILK GOWNS) that Luna is going to crack the code. We are also convinced that, given the right information, the code is accessible to readers. We just haven't the right key, yet. Peg From romuluslupin1 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 13:37:55 2003 From: romuluslupin1 at yahoo.com (Federica Bianchi) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 06:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paintings and memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031025133755.85383.qmail@web20701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83555 This is my first post, so please forgive me if I'm rehashing old news. Anyway, here is my thought for the day. I was reading some old post to get the feel of the land, as you might say. IA while ago there was some discussion regarding the possibility of a portrait of Serius (pre-Azkaban), James or Lily being around somewhere. The speculation was that a portrait painted a long time ago would be of no use to HP because they couldn't help him. Someone (sorry, can't remember who it was) then said that maybe magic paintings could be a bit like Dorian Gray's portrait and they would age together with their subject while s/he is still alive and stop aging after his/er death. This way theh painting would "remember" all the subject's experiences, as well as its own (as we see with Nigellus). I didn't see any reply to this idea (or maybe I just missed it) so I thought I'd jump in. I think it's possible that whatever it is that makes a painting "alive" has a contact with the "original". I think paintee (is this a word, by the way?) and painting maintain a mental magical contact and that's what makes painting and photos different. I arrived to this conclusion after re-reading the whole series for the umpteenth time. Here's why. In the COS Tom asks Harry how a small baby could destroy (well, almost) the greatest wizard in the world, and HP says it was his mother's protection. HP later destroyed TMR memory in the diary, right? Nobody knows about his protection, LV couldn't have known this form any other source. He didn't know about the protection in PS/SS, his past self discovers the truth in COS and from that moment on he spends all his time trying to get HP's protection for himself (LV tells HP in the graveyard scene). When did LV get to know about it? If the bits of yourself you leave around (memories in diary, animated paintings etc) retain a mental connection with you, it would explain this beautifully. Diary!Tom acquired some information that he immediately passed on to future!Tom (well, LV actually). Portraits might work the same way and it might even be a two-way process. I hope I expressed my thoughts in an a comprehensible manner, as English is not my first language. Anyway, if this makes it past the post police (I always visualize the elves as harassed policemen trying to dodge posts pelting them right and left), please, let me know what you think. Ciao, Romulus Lupin (Remus smarter brother, who know better than to play with werewolves as a kid and avoided the curse) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Oct 25 14:12:00 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:12:00 -0000 Subject: Bat Bogey Hex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: Lynette: > Now, the bat-bogey hex... according > to the definition from the Harry Potter Lexicon (http://www.hp- > lexicon.org/spells_b.html#bat-bogey): The bat-bogey hex engorges an > opponent's bogeys to bat size, gives them wings and sets them to > attacking his or her face. > Lynnette, who thinks Snape is a good guy, even if he is not a nice > person! Geoff: Obviously I should find time to visit the Lexicon when I'm not trying to keep up with the volume of postings here. My only comment to the definition of the Hex is: Urrggh! As an aside, I only recently discovered that the US term is booger. I saw it on the subtitles for one of the HP DVDs and thought it was a typing error - it does sound a little like one of those English pejoratives which are not used in polite company. Having read the thread on the psychoanalysis of COS, I am coming to the conclusion that I have either led a very sheltered life or am very naive (no suggestions please!). I have read the HP books for pleasure; am I unusual, because I must admit that I do not reach the end of a book and then start looking for hidden meanings and innuendos? I do find great interest and amusement in the various theories that are put forward as we read and re-read and compare notes and think that, if JKR has worked all those ideas into her plot, she must have spent years working out the inter-relationship of topics! But even so, I still like to read a book as a piece of narrative. Perhaps I should take a few days away from HPFGU and go and lie down quietly. Geoff From Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk Sat Oct 25 15:41:36 2003 From: Robert at shavian.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Shaw) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:41:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 References: Message-ID: <022001c39b1b$f7e443a0$749c87d9@robertft56e9wi> No: HPFGUIDX 83557 o_caipora wrote: > "Robert Shaw" wrote: > >> If there's an inconsistency present, then I'd like to pin it >> down and find out just how big it is. > > Due the fertility of Rowling's imagination, for which God bless her, > there's just too much stuff for a small population. So we can conclude that wizarding society has a larger population base than Hogwarts can account for. Consistency require that either a considerable number of wizards aren't Hogwarts educated, or that much of the support work is done by non-wizards. > >> However we don't know what contribution is made to wizarding >> society by non-wizards. > > We know that the WW is subject to time and decay. Besides the > condition of the Black house, secret passages collapse at Hogwarts, > and the school needs a custodian. All that fancy wizard stuff must be > not only built, but maintained. > > Let's take just the Hogwarts Express. It uses station and track, and > has and engine and always just the right amount of cars. > > Perhaps wizards didn't build the platform: engineers since the > Pyramids have put passages into their drawings that they didn't > explain to the stoneworkers. The cheapest use of wizard labor would > have be to use a spell to alter the blueprints, and then enchant the > entrance once the workers were gone. Even so, Platform 9 3/4 probably > needs cleaning and repainting not much less than Platform 9 does. And > all that track! Which could be done by muggles. A charm can make the maintenance workers overlook the platform number and other oddities. > Maybe most is Muggle track, with the signals charmed > to keep other trains off when the Express is running. But even that > implies someone to devise new charms as Muggle systems change, Maybe, depending on how magic works. If it responds to intent, the same cloak that makes you invisible to the human eye will also make you invisible to video cameras, and no new charms will be needed. > > It's at least a dozen people, assuming they all work several tasks. > And that's for a train that runs twice a year. Trick muggles into doing all the manual labour and you're left with a handful of desk jobs, which might take two people a week, spread over the year. The section of track through Hogsmead is slightly more problematic but, given how little it's used, a single person in Hogsmead can probably inspect the track every few months, and renew the various self-maintenance spells. > Another data point is Mundungis's trade in stolen cauldrons. Is a > population of 24,000 sufficient so that the makers and buyers of said > cauldrons don't trip over one another? Somehow it doesn't seem so. Is that trade confined to the UK? > > Depending on > your recipe, several to half-a-dozen kinds of seafood go into > bouillabaisse, and no amount of analysis will permit a reconstuction > of what "the Bouillabaisse" looks like swimming in the sea. But it will let you determine all the creatures from which the soup was made, which is enough. Caipora also said > > There are detailed stories of magical worlds. In Randall > Garret's "Lord Darcy" stories such as "Too Many Magicians" magic > follows consistent rules. In Larry Niven's "The Magic Goes Away" the > nature of magic is described, and the central plot device, the > Warlock's Wheel, can be seen to be "valid" magic under the rules > given. > > Rowling doesn't have that level of consistency. She throws into the > cauldron whatever looks tasty. > Which doesn't stop coherent rules from emerging. Pratchett didn't originally have any street plan in mind for Ankh-Morpork, he just used names at random, but it proved possible to construct a street plan which fitted all the references. It's also possible that Rowling does have a consistent underlying picture, as part of the background notes she has occasionally referred to, but that Harry is not the kind of person who would notice it. >> Digressions aside, you are seriously underestimating the ability >> of maths and science to extract data from noise. > > There has to be data there, though. Even a single vertabra must have > once been part of a creature that swam, crawled, ran, or flew. > > Rowling's wizards, though, are not part of a real world. They are not > even part of a world invented with great care given to consistency. > Assuming Harry would notice the underlying patterns. He, and hence we also, could well be missing two-thirds of the picture. > >> Consider a small town, maybe 25,000 people. >> >> A town that size will have a distinct sense of its own identity, >> even today. Once, before communication got easier, it would >> have had its own culture, divergent from the national mainstream. > > Supporting three professional sports teams, a newpaper, a railroad, > three or four transport systems, a large hospital, and several > hundred government employees? Can you envision that? You've double counted the railway, which is one of the transport systems. I know towns that size with most of those services. Allowing for the effects of magic, I certainly can envision the town having all of them. The quidditch teams might only be the equivalent in skill, and pay, of some third division straggler, but that's still a lot better than the average amateur. People would still pay to watch them. Also, I doubt that all goblins are bankers, and we have no idea of their total numbers. Their other services could go a long way to making up for low wizard numbers. -- Robert From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 16:35:17 2003 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Lady Pensieve) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:35:17 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83558 Corinth wrote: > In light of your comments, I am still mystified as to why exactly > Dobby is so loyal to Harry. -Corinth, who is getting more and > more intigued by the house elf plotliness My personal belief is that in book 7 we will discover that Dobby was the Potter's House Elf. Since the house was destroyed and he had no place to go...Dumbledore managed to find a way to place him with the Malfoys. Dobby's first loyalty would be to his 'original' family. Remember, it's rich people that have money, and James seemed to have it. Dobby may have worked for the Potters his whole life, and when they were destroyed - well, he couldn't go to a Muggle home, could he? So arrangements were made. It's doubtful the Malfoys would have known about the Potter's house elf. Years later when Dobby heard Harry's name, he knew it was up to him to do something to save his true 'master'. Perhaps this will also answer the question of some of the 'missing time' from the first book. Kathy > From rredordead at aol.com Sat Oct 25 18:10:08 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:10:08 -0000 Subject: Last names vs First. (was: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83559 > Mandy wrote: > > Another good example is Professor Snape calling Professor > > Lupin 'Lupin' through out PoA showing he thinks very little of > > Remus. Interestingly almost everyone calls Lupin 'Lupin' perhaps > > because of his part animal nature puts him below the full humans. > nkittyhawk wrote: > Well, you have to remember that Lupin was once a professor. The students always use the title Professor to a teachers face but drop it when they talk among themselves in an effort to bring the teacher down a peg or two, to make them less authoritative and to demonstrate to their peers that they are not afraid of the teacher. In other words showing-off. At the end of OotP Harry keeps calling Snape 'Snape' to Dumbledore until Dumbledore scolds him and tells him to call Snape 'Professor Snape' as he is Harry teacher, and no matter how much he hates him he still deserves that level of respect. >Do you think they call Dumbledore Dumbledore because he's lower than >them? No, of course not, but the students call Dumbledore 'Dumbledore' to each other for the same reason I mentioned above. To my knowledge nobody calls Dumbledore Dumbledore to his face. Certainly not the students. If an adult does, then it will be by a close friend and colleague and used as a term of familiarity not disrespect. >They don't say Professor, because they're not talking TO them. Yes I agree > They've never really said "Remus" because, for the whole first year > that they knew him, he was "Professor Lupin". After that, it was > just Lupin because they never called him Remus. If McGonagall > retired, they wouldn't suddenly start calling her "Minerva". >They're just not used to it. Harry and co still refer to Lupin as 'Professor' to his face even though he has left teaching as they are not familiar enough with him to call him anything else. Sirius does call him Remus, obviously they are very close friends. Or were I should say. When Harry and co. reach a level of friendship with Lupin they will start to call him Remus too. As for Minerva McGonagall the issue of age comes into play. Harry and co will most likely alway call her 'Professor McGonagall' to her face and never 'Minerva' as she is so much older then them and that age difference commands respect. Of course to each other she gets the same treatment as all the other teachers: 'McGonagall'. >They call Sirius "Sirius" because there was never a time that he >was "higher" in status. (like a professor) Actually they didn't call Sirius 'Sirius' until he became Harry's Godfather and friend in Book 4. All through Book 3 he was referred to by all as either 'Sirius Black' and 'Black'. Because they all first learned about Sirius when he was considered a criminal, the lowest of the low. Most notably Hermione calls him 'Mr. Black' in the Shreeking Shack scene which literally stops him in his tracks and he stairs at her for a while. Obviously no one has given him the level of respect of a long time. I think Hermione brilliantly used the title out of fear to get his attention and to placate him to not hurting Ron. As I said in my first post the issue of first and last names in Britain is very complicated. The rules often contradict themselves. Just remember that what the students someone to their face is often very different than what they will use in private. Mandy From Ali at zymurgy.org Sat Oct 25 18:21:48 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:21:48 -0000 Subject: Harry and the next great adventure, was Re: Percy Ignatius Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83560 > The Sergeant Majorette says > The wizarding wardrobe, with its long medieval robes. It never > occurred to me before, but maybe this is one of JKR's references > [to the Jesuits]. (Yeah, and the schools with the black-robed > teachers and the repressed sexuality -- if that doesn't make me > feel 40 years younger!) Pip!Squeak: Except black gowned teachers and repressed sexuality could be any 'good' UK school up to about 1980. Teachers in the UK 'top' schools would wear a black academic gown over their clothes when teaching. On full formal occasions, they would also wear the coloured hood showing that they had a University degree. Ali:- Yep, in my school the teachers wore their academic gowns, and that was in the late 80's (ok middle ish). For all I know, they still do. Pip!Squeak: No character in the WW has an identifiable religion. Not one. We're not even sure whether Voldemort is non-religious, or sold-his-soul- to-evil-for-power religious. [Yes, folks, selling your soul to evil in exchange for power is 'religious'. You have to believe in a) a soul and b) an evil supernatural power before you can do it. ;-) ] One of the things JKR is examining in her books is prejudice. One of the major prejudices in the UK-and-Northern-Ireland is religion. Famously in Northern Ireland, less famously but still present in the mainland UK. There are UK cities where you select your football team according to your denomination. I've seen reporters in national magazines announce that X shouldn't have been given that job because they are of Y religion, and that will make them 'biased'. [Insert whichever religion or denomination you like for Y, including atheism. I've seen most of them suggested as 'bias']. Ali:- I agree totally with your rationale, but I disagree that religion is such a cause for prejudice in Mainland UK, well, at least in terms of Christian denominations. Religious prejudice is present, but I have never come across it in *England* in the way that I've seen it in Northern Ireland and Glasgow. The fact that England has not had a law against religious discrimination points to the fact that it has not been seen as a major cause for prejudice ? or it has been picked up by race discrimination laws (this is to change though). Anyway, back to the Potterverse Funnily enough, although I agree that JKR has been at pains to exclude religion from the books, in some ways, I feel that it is religion that will be the key to the solution. I apologise for banging this drum again, but I believe that a fundamental difference between Harry and Voldemort will be how they view death ? and the afterlife. I think that Harry's acceptance of death and Voldemort's great fear of it, could what in essence divides them ? alluding to Dumbledore's question "but in essence divided" p. 416 OoP. The WW do have something which is arguably worse than death - as Lupin says "Much worse than that" p. 183 PoA UK edition. They have the "Kiss". The Kiss sucks out a victim's soul; they are left without any feeling or residue of self. What we, the reader do not yet know, is whether the loss of soul means that they cannot go on the next great adventure. I believe that it does. I wonder if this is what Dumbledore is thinking about in his duel against Voldemort in the MoM, when he tells Voldemort that death wouldn't be sufficient for him? IIRC, Dumbledore has said that a weakness of Voldemort's is his failure to recognise that anything can be worse than death. If you see death as marking the transition between this world and the "next great adventure", but see the Kiss as being an end, then it is quite easy to see that death is not the worst thing that can happen to you. Voldemort totally fails to recognise or at least want the next great adventure. Perhaps it is Harry's belief that he will see Sirius again, rather than his love for him by itself that saves him from Voldemort's possession? If this is the case, then I'm willing to hazard a guess that this fundamental difference between Harry and Voldemort will be absolutely key to the resolution of Book 7. This idea can be tied in with the idea of saving one's soul, and can perhaps be linked back to JKR's religious beliefs - supposedly a key to the ending of the books. It is interesting that the Dementors, the soul destroyers seem more interested in Harry than say his fellow Quidditch players. In PoA Harry identified the Dementors as his biggest fear. Perhaps Lupin was wrong, and it wasn't that Harry was afraid of fear itself, but that Harry subconsciously understood the threat that the Dementors posed ? especially to him. His belief in an afterlife does seem to be subconscious. He is saved from possession by Voldemort because in willing himself to die, he thinks he'll see Sirius again. But, it is really only when Luna talks about seeing her mother again that Harry reassesses what he felt in the death chamber ? namely the feeling that there were people murmuring and waiting just beyond the veil. He feels better after he had talked to Luna, his oppressive weight of grief lightened a bit. I wonder if this is Luna's real role in the books. She helps Harry to accept things that he knows but is not able to express or even understand. Whereas Hermione can treat Harry as a "normal" wizard and keep his feet firmly on the ground, Luna can help him on a different plain altogether. It is this plain which Harry must understand to prepare him for his final battle against Voldemort. Ali From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 25 18:26:21 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:26:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] wizarding numbers References: <1066527787.7764.79549.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c39b25$7dd656c0$17e76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 83561 Catlady (whose posts I always read with great interest) wrote: > > In my opinion, we don't need to think how many wizards would have to > work to make enough money to pay the wages of wizarding bureaucrats, > book publishers, and Quidditch players, because (in my opinion) a > great deal of the money in the wizarding world is 'made' by magic. We Isn't that making something out of nothing though? There seems to be a strong element running through canon that the money supply is in the hands of Gringott and the goblins - they employ wizards as curse breakers to get access to hoards, and coins are valid by virtue of having a maker's mark on them. So unless there is some obligation on the goblins to hand over part or all of any newly minted coins to the MoM, the Ministry's got to have some other way of paying its employees. Maybe they _do_ require that of the goblins! Maybe that's yet another source of resentment in goblindom... > jobs (including the 'job' of customer). Which leads me to wonder how > many people are needed for a professional Quidditch team --- seven > starting players and how many reserves? One or more coaches? One or > more trainers, medi-mages, and masseurs -- or are all those jobs > replaced by one witch and her magic? One or more broomstick tenders, > or do the players tend their own? Talent scouts, ticket sellers, > groundskeepers, ushers, food and souvenir vendors -- how many stadia > are there? (COuld there be only one, gov't-owned, stadium, so that no > two matches could take place at the same time?) Also, of course, most sporting clubs run more than one team. So would a quidditch club run a first team, a reserve team, and one or more youth teams (under 11, under 13, under 16, and so on) to make sure there's a constant supply of new players coming through. If you factor those in (and possibly assume that there's an amateur scene as well) together with the various national sides, you are going to need a quite extensive network of people to back it up. > number of children per family. I believe that there have always been > Muggle-born wizards because the wizarding folk have never, in the > last 3000 years, had a birth rate up to replacement level, because > many wizards and witches never bothered with marriage and/or > child-bearing at all. The problem is that we have only a partial view of a very specialised area of the WW at Hogwarts. And even on the outside we only see a few families (the Blacks and the Weasleys certainly _do_ seem to go in for an equal or greater-than replacement number of children: the Malfoys don't (and Lucius is quite contemptuous of Arthur) but then Lucius and Narcissa are quite young in WW terms and could quite easily have more children later (assuming Azkaban allows conjugal visits, that is...) Certainly on the "genetics" theory (which I know is not the same as yours), a birth rate less than replacement rate would by now see a crisis looming on the WW horizon.. Because of the long generations in which every muggle born wizard has been scooped up and ushered into the WW, the number of muggles with the wizard gene must be getting smaller: it's being bred out. Mikael wrote: >I don't see that, especially if you look at pre-modern times. In a reply to >Robert Shaw, I pointed out that if the WW enjoyed low mortality and high >fertility (fast growth) for any sustained period of time, while muggles >simultaneously suffered high mortality and high fertility (slow growth), >which has been the case until modern times, then wizards would become more >numerous than muggles in perhaps as little as 500 years, depending on >starting populations and growth rates. What you're saying would imply that the ratio grew until the point last century when muggle population growth really took off, since then it's declined. The era of persecution isn't really _that_ long ago in WW generational terms, if you assume a 60-year generation then there's just 5 generations between the concealment and the present day. Mikael again: >Interestingly enough, the fraction of muggle-borns would put a cap on >maximum theoretical attendance. We know that 25 % of the wizarding >population is muggle-born. But how big a fraction of Hogwarts students is >muggle-born? Erring on the side of caution, I'd say it's maximally 31%, >probably less. I think this statement ought to be the other way round - JKR's comment was that 25% of the Hogwarts population were muggle born. If 25% of the _WW_ population was muggle-born, the sociological implications would be tremendous in terms of acculturation to the muggle world. But it seems that that is not so. Even someone like Arthur, whose work brings him into daily contact with the muggle world, is firmly rooted in the WW culture. If such a large proportion were muggle born, then there would be virtually no room for wizards to have inaccurate notions about how the muggle world works, any who still shut themselves off from that understanding would end up as lonely eccentrics. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From patnkatng at cox.net Sat Oct 25 18:31:51 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:31:51 -0000 Subject: Tonks - the name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goodnight_moon5" wrote: > > Lauri: > I agree, but her name still has me puzzled. According to the > catholic "lives of the saints" > http://www.ocrb.org/livesofsaints.html "The Holy Virgin Martyrs > Menodora, Metrodora, and Nymphodora, like the Holy Virgins Faith, > Hope, and Love, faced the brutality of a government wholly opposed to > the one true God. In their contest we benefit, seeing in their > victory an icon of meekness and truth which strengthens our own > souls." > > *Could* JKR be borrowing from religious tradition here? Would > Nymphodora be "love"? Would that have anything to do with the > greater plotline of Love (being the thing which the MOM is studying > and the thing which the dark lord has not)? Or would that mean she > is "love" to one of the characters? (Shippers?) Or that she's going > to meet a sticky end, like her namesake? > > JKR doesn't choose names lightly, each name is meant to show us > something of the character. Or, could JKR just have chosen an > extremely frilly/silly name for Tonks to make her more interesting? > > Lauri Katrina added: It gets even stranger. According to the website, "20,000 Names" (http://www.20000- names.com/) "Nympha" means "bride" and "Dora" means "gift." Things that make you go Hmmmm. . . . From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 24 10:42:07 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:42:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Ignatius Weasley References: Message-ID: <001d01c39a1b$7a0a5d80$0fe479a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83563 > The Sergeant Majorette says > > Anyway, there probably *is* religion in the WW: not in the sense of > deep abiding faith or the relationship of the individual to his > community or his God, but in the sense of where a baby makes its > white-lace debut, or where your wedding is held, or when the stores > are closed, or what you call the winter holiday. > Iggy here: My personal sense of what "faith" seems to be in the WW is that, despite many of the clothing choices that seem rather ecumenical (if I use the term properly), the holidays and other parts of that aspect of their life would be a heavy combination of both the Druidic and Christian religions. Most of this comes from the feeling that the WW doesn't really see the two as being mutually exclusive and live their daily lives with both absorbed together. For one thing, if it were strictly Christian-based in their faith, the WW wouldn't really exist, now would it? For another, since they celebrate Christmas and such, they have obviously incorporated this set of beliefs as well... possibly as a natural extension of having so many Muggle-Borns (so many of whom would be some form of Christian) added to their ranks after the spread of Christianity. Ancient magics and other things that predate the common era, such as the curses laid out on the pyramids of Egypt and the power of Stonehenge, would indicate that the WW existed long before Christianity. As a matter of fact, I can see many members of the WW celebrating Beltane, the solstices, and the equinoxes and such just as faithfully as observances of Christmas. Just my two centaurs worth Iggy McSnurd From strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 25 15:01:29 2003 From: strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:01:29 -0000 Subject: could Harry really be an auror? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > D wrote: > I think JKR is setting the ground work to continue even after Harry > has left Hogwarts. Or maybe this is just wishful thinking on my > part.> > >> > 1. I don't think his Potions mark will be high enough. > **** > Harry corked his sample flask feeling that he might not have achieved > a good grade but he had, with luck, avoided a fail. (OoP, Bloomsbury, > p 632) > **** > now laura Not having my books with me, I cant quote, but when Umbridge is inspecting Snape's class, she says something like "the strenghtnining solution is quite advanced and we [the ministry]don't want them taught how to make it.' Judging by that, it would seem that Snape's class is more advanced than the Ministry expects, thus more advanced than the Wizarding Exam Authority expects. Harry will get a good grade, because, IMO, he will know more advanced potions than he is expected to know. > 4. We are told that being an Auror was the only career path Harry had > seriously considered, but this ambition is a comparatively new one, > and was put into his head by Crouch!Moody in GoF. If Potions are > essential to Auror training, and Hary is not a particularly talented > potion-maker, it seems only logical to conclude that he wouldn't be > successful in this part of the job. > Okay, preparing to duck. > Kirstini. laura again... Harry may not be too great at potions, but he is the best at DADA. In this way, he can be compared to Tonks, who was excellent at 'concealment and disguise,' but almost failed another part of the auror exam (sorry, can't remember what it was called). And Harry is not the worst potions maker in the world, IMHO. laura From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 19:01:45 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The VEIL Message-ID: <20031025190145.7458.qmail@web40007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83565 25Oct03 Nianya wrote: "Phil Posted: Third Idea about the VEIL..... 3. The voices Harry and Luna heard are Arthur, Molly, and Bill Weasley. Bill works at Gringotts and the Weasleys are in the Gringott tunnel area preparing for Sirius' arrival ...? " Paula now: I don't know. After looking up this passage again, I still have the distinct impression that the fact that ONLY Harry and Luna hear the voices is significant, as the fact that Harry and Luna can see the Threstrals. Neville wasn't present at the time, right? Also, remember that Harry was very mesmerized by the Veil, and had some desire even to walk through. I saw this as significant since Harry is the only one whose parents are both dead. No doubt that JKR will expound on the Department of Mysteries. Nianya again: "Most, if not all, postees seem to agree that Sirius is truly dead, but purely from the book, the reader cannot be certain.... " Paula: Yes, yes. Even Nearly Headless Nick's certainty that Sirius has "gone on" is not so convincing when he himself (Nick) admits that he knows nothing of the secrets of death. Remember too that upon hearing of Surius' demise that his great-great grandfather, Phineus immediately leaves his frame in Dumbledore's office and could have possibly fled to his frame at Grimmauld Place. This fact is a real ray of hope for me. Paula "Griff" Gaon Please participate in my poll at OT-Chatter; help a starving artist, Thanks!: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/polls --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yankee_bubba at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 19:51:56 2003 From: yankee_bubba at hotmail.com (bubbaqrib) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:51:56 -0000 Subject: could Harry really be an auror? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" > wrote: > > D wrote: > > I think JKR is setting the ground work to continue even after Harry > > has left Hogwarts. Or maybe this is just wishful thinking on my > > part.> > > > >> > > 1. I don't think his Potions mark will be high enough. > > **** > > Harry corked his sample flask feeling that he might not have > achieved > > a good grade but he had, with luck, avoided a fail. (OoP, > Bloomsbury, > > p 632) > > **** > > I have kind of an odd idea about Harry and his advanced potions. Because we dont realy know if Harry is bad at potions or a product of the Snape situation. We know Harry has to have advanced Potions. But what will be required to take that class. Professor McGonagall states that "Professor Snape absolutely refuses to take students who get anything other than Outstanding" What if Professor Snape is not the Potions Master next year? But DADA teacher or some other position. That would allow another Potions Master who has a different requirement for the next level of potions class. BubbaQRib From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Oct 25 20:56:36 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:56:36 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: <20031024181613.61117.qmail@web25203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83567 > Sen wrote: > > I didn't see where it said the Order was created (anyone?). > > During the time I'm assuming it was created (at least during > > Lily & James's 7th yr. Maybe even the year after they got out) > > which would be 77/78. > ********* Diana Fischer wrote: > (me) I doubt this because this order wasn't created because of the > Potters it was created because of Voldemort and after that it was > most likely created in year 1970. > This say they had the possible to be a member, but weren't. > In OotP, Uk Adult Ed, p65, Hermione tells Harry after he blows up and begins to settle down and ask what the heck is the Order anyway: "It's a secret society...Dumbledore's in charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against You-Know-Who last time." However, I belive this may just be oversimplified. Afterall, Hermione almost always knows all that she knows from her own throrough reserach and reading. But, the Order being secret would not enable her to learn anything at all about it on her own. She is limited to the overheard information snipets, rumours, suppositions and what everelse 'quick explanations' the adults shoove at the kids. I tend to think this is meant to tempt us to just accept it, when I belive it may be a bit more sophisticated and rich in history than just this. Arya From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Oct 25 21:16:45 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:16:45 -0000 Subject: The VEIL In-Reply-To: <20031025190145.7458.qmail@web40007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Paula Gaon wrote: > I don't know. After looking up this passage again, I still have the distinct impression that the fact that ONLY Harry and Luna hear the voices is significant, as the fact that Harry and Luna can see the Threstrals. Neville wasn't present at the time, right? Hickengruendler: No, Neville was there, too. And he, too, was mesmerized by the veil. But so was Ginny, who can't see thestrals. I think it has something to do with all of them having a better understnading of death, because they have seen Death or were very close to Death (in Ginny's case). I also want to add, that I think Sirius is dead and won't come back. And, and I suppose now many of you all throw rotten tomatoes at me, I hope he will stay dead. Not because I dislike him, but because I want Harry to deal with what happened (like he already did at the end of book 5) and it should become clear for him, that Death is certain, and that our loved-ones won't come back. And if it is some scheme to hide Sirius I will hate everyone involved forever, for the way they let Harry suffer. Especially Sirius. Hickengruendler From Berkana_01 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 19:11:56 2003 From: Berkana_01 at hotmail.com (Joanna Barra) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:11:56 +0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83569 I wonder about all this too. I wonder about A LOT of things in the HP books, LOL! However... In GoF, we assume Voldemeort is speaking of Snape as "one who has left me for good and will be killed of course" and Barty Crouch Jr. as the one who has "returned to my service" ...... Hi Lynette...Joanna here.When Voldemort says "one who has left me for good and will be killed of course" Have you or anyone else wondered if he could have been talking about Kakarof, who ran away at the end of GoF? I used to think it was Snape, but after reading OotP and realising that Snape wasn't even a bit sad about Sirius dying, even for Harry sake, it made me start thinking...How can a man help a boy, who he hates so much? I don't believe that Snape has ever left V's side and is actually spying on DD and passing the information to V.........Far fetched...well yes. Joanna , who comes up with crazy ideas. _________________________________________________________________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat Oct 25 22:16:41 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:16:41 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83570 Kneasy wrote: > > > Why should a sock from a stranger have this significance? But if > Harry is family then Dobby's cry of "Harry Potter set Dobby free!" > has real significance, because unless he is family he can't possibly > set Dobby free, only Malfoy can. And I don't believe unknowingly giving > a sock from a stranger would do the trick. < < I replied: > > Apparently, he could leave the Malfoys for good at any time, but he > > knows the rules and therefore returns. However, he desperately wants > > to leave, and so the Malfoys are very careful not to let him have > > anything resembling clothes for fear he will leap at the opportunity. > > In the end, an inadvertantly tossed sock that Malfoy possessed for all > > of one second was enough to free Dobby. Would it have been enough to > > release another elf? Probably not. Most elves would see it as an > > accidental occurence, not intentional giving of clothes, and would > > therefore continue in service. And silver_owl_01 commented: > Were forgeting a little detail. In OotP Sirius says that almost all > the pureblood wizard families are interconnected by marriage or > blood, the most fanatically racist more than any, given how few > choices there were available for marriage. Every pureblood is > probably related in one degree or another to every other. > > Given how inbred the purebloods must be, it's not too far fetched to > assume that James could've been related to the Malfoys in some > degree, hence Dobby could justify himself about going to Harry. Actually, I didn't forget that detail in the least. I never once said that the Potters couldn't be related to the Malfoys (although I personally don't believe they are, at least not closely enough to be of significance to the plot). I was simply suggesting that a relationship wasn't necessary to explain how Dobby could be set free by Harry's sock. In my theory, the only one who had to be convinced that the sock was given by Malfoy was Dobby himself, and he decided the one second possession was enough. -Corinth From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 22:33:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:33:24 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? ...Jaded Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > > laura here... > ... reading OOTP ...I found something ... interesting, ...in the > room of requirement was 'a large, cracked foe-glass that Harry was > sure had hung, the previous year, in the fake Moody's office' (uk > edition p346) Why would't it have been a nice shiny unbroken > foe-glass? And why the connection with fake Moody? > ...edited... > > laura bboy_mn: This relates to something else I noticed about Harry's view of Hogwarts. In PS/SS Harry first describes the Gryffindor common room as "...a cozy, round room full of squashy armchairs". In the remaining books the commons room is either described in neutral or positive terms, or at least neutral or positive implication. However, in OotP the 'new' seems to have worn off; "...cozy circular room full of /dilapidated/ squashy armchairs and /rickety/ old tables", later we find that the rug in front of the fireplace is threadbare, soot stained, and has burn holes. So I speculate that we are seem a small loss of Harry's innocents. In Gof, when Harry first sees the Foe Glass, he is so impressed with the Glass and with Moody, that his eyes and his mind overlooks the minor's flaws, However, in OotP he is far more jaded by life, and far less impressed by the wizard world he sees, so suddenly cozy squashy armchairs become dilapidated, and tables that served him quite nicely are suddenly rickety. And now through Harry's substantially less 'starry' eyes, we see the Foe Glass with warts, cracks, and all. That covers the cracks, but why JKR made such a specific point of bring the Foe Glass into that scene and specifically mentioning Moody, I can not say. Certainly, she could have made it a general purpose Foe Glass with a casual mention like all the other dark detectors. Certanly, if the room manufactures the objects found within, then there would be no reason for it to conjure a 'cracked' Foe Glass. It seems she made a point of it, Moody's Glass, but never used that point. The Foe Glass, that I recall, never became significant in the story. So, on that one point, I am baffled. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 22:47:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:47:36 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen: > > If Snape could teach DADA, whether he wants to or not, why didn't DD > move him over for the year and look for a temporary Potions teacher > so that Umbridge wasn't appointed? Maybe I'm assuming too much to > say another Potions Master is readily available. > > Unless Dumbledore wanted a Ministry offical at Hogwarts. > > ...edited... > > Or it could just be what we're told, that Dumbledore couldn't find > anyone ;). But that's not as much fun to speculate about! > > Jen bboy_mn: Perhaps I could paraphrase Dumbledore's reluctance to make Snape DADA teacher by saying that it's not wize to put a crack-head in charge of the pharmancy. Dark Arts are a little to near and dear to Snape's heart to trust that he could teach a subject that serious and that dangerous to students without being tempted to gravitate toward darker and darker, and therefore, more dangerous magic as time went on. The other possibility, although not as much fun, is that perhaps potion makers are reasonably easy to find but truly talented Potions Masters are a rare commodity. Therefore, Dumbledore wants to keep Snape in the position where his talents are the most valuable. Having said all that, I'm very much of the belief that in the next book Snape will indeed be the new DADA teacher. This opens some interesting possibilities where Snape is the faculy advisor for the continuation of the D.A. Club, as well as some very interesting DADA class. In addition, it lowers the requirement to get into Advanced Potion, thereby allowing Harry to enter the class and pursue his deam of being an Auror. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 23:41:11 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:41:11 -0000 Subject: Percy Ignatius Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote, and the Sergeant Majorette responds: <<<...Except black gowned teachers and repressed sexuality could be any 'good' UK school up to about 1980...On full formal occasions, they would also wear the coloured hood showing that they had a University degree...>>> <<>> <<<...If the WW reflects the modern UK, then it will have three quarters of the population with that sort of religion. But I think JKR has chosen not to attact particular 'denominations' to people for a very different reason...One of the things JKR is examining in her books is prejudice. One of the major prejudices in the UK-and- Northern-Ireland is religion...So if JKR wants to examine prejudice by *only* using a prejudice specific to the Wizarding World...then she can't use or mention religion...So I suspect 'religious characters' are like 'gay characters'...>>> Who was it that said the US and the UK are separated by a common language? The closest association I, as a New Yorker (a bit different from a regular American) could make to the teachers' robes was the habits of the religious teachers. I mean, I did kind of guess that "robes" meant academic garb, but then why wouldn't Snape be wearing trousers in the Pensieve scene? As is obvious from the "No sex..." thread, the only Americans who can relate to the sexual naivete of the Hogwarts kids are old used Latin-Mass parochial school kids like myself. And until I read the original post on this thread, I was wracking my brain trying to find an analog to the relationship of the WW world to the Muggle: Mormons? Amish? Way too literal, but Catholic? Now, that's funny! As for the red hair, in the US, the first thought is always "Irish". And I think I've met (socially) one Irish Protestant in my life. (Somebody one one of these boards said that red hair is not natural, it's mutant blonde). And, yeah, we *did* get the "oversimplified" version in school. Only we didn't learn the Protestant Reformation, we learned the Protestant Revolt. See where I'm coming from? JKR has obviously got a Rocky and Bullwinkle thing going here in that even a kid enjoying the cartoon on a basic level call tell that there's some fairly sophisticated satire taking place way above his head. If you're familiar with the reference, you can enjoy Rocky and Bullwinkle and Harry and Snape on so many different planes. No stereotypes, no ignorance = no satire, no stand-up comedians. Who would want to live in a world like that? So we have sexual orientation, religion, AIDS, race, and poverty references to make the adults giggle; action, adventure, fart and booger jokes, and romance without bodily fluid involvement for the kids. JKR is a genius. --JDR From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 00:23:24 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 00:23:24 -0000 Subject: Butterbeer (Re: Bat Bogey Hex) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83574 > Arya > Who also showed sign of obssessive HP behavior when last night > drinking a beer, looked at the can and thought, "It's kind of cold, I > wish this was a warm butterbeer." and then proceeded to put the beer > in a glass with a pat of butter and into the microwave. I took it > out and nearly wretched at the awful smell of newly activated yeast. > But, being the ever-adventurous science geek that I am and die-hard > HP fan (and all around moron at times), I plugged my nose and took a > drink. And then spit it out. Several times. I continued to rinse > mouth with mouthwash for over two hours later. *Strongly* do not > recommend. 'Nuff said. Anyone got a recipe for Pumpkin juice? Maybe it's something like a buttery nipple (Butterscotch, Schnapps and Irish cream) but with beer instead of the Irish cream Or maybe like a spiked eggnog type thing mmmh Gorda From molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 00:59:37 2003 From: molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 17:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031026005937.96156.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83575 --- jwcpgh wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "theultimatesen" > wrote: > I figure it's pretty obvious why they weren't > in the order. > Their hands were tied up with the babies. First > priority at that > time. > > Laura: > > Sorry, not buying. Having young children didn't > stop the Potters or > the Longbottoms from being active Order members-I > know the Weasleys > had a bunch more than either of those couples but > still. Here's another suggestion. We never hear anything about the Weasley's having close family or the parent's having adult friends. The Potters on the other hand possibly still had living parents and we know they had friends (Arabella Figg) that could watch Harry. But with as many children as the Weasley's have it would be difficult for the parents to be away from home. Also, for a decent amount of that time (like around the time the Potters were killed) Mrs. Weasley would have been pregnant with Ginny, so I doubt they would have a pregnant woman fighting Voldemort. Just a thought in defense of my favorite wizarding family:) ~Kathryn ===== "Difference of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.-Dumbledore,GoF "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that."-Dumbledore-SS Ron: "Well, I had one that I was playing Quidditch the other night...what d'you reckon that means? Harry:"Probably that you're going to be eaten by a giant marshmallow or something." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Oct 26 03:15:07 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:15:07 -0000 Subject: Speaking up for Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eric Oppen" > wrote: > > > Now, out of the blue, blue sky, they get _another_ fifteen-month- > old. Now > > Petunia's workload is about doubled (somehow, I "hae me doots" > that Vernon > > helps around the house---if he knows _how_ to wash dishes or where > the > > washing machine/dryer are, I'd be very surprised) and it's for a > child that > > may be bringing all sorts of disasters down on their home. She > may well > > have seen spontaneous magic from her sister before Lily got her > Hogwarts > > letter, and been thoroughly frightened by it, particularly if it > was at all > > destructive. > > > Jen: The still waters of Petunia's resentment run very deep, > methinks! I'm sure getting dumped with a toddler she was *persuaded* > to keep was part of it. > > Especially a toddler with Lily's eyes, who reminds Petunia > constantly of the conflicted relationship she shared with her > sister. And a toddler who also looks "remarkably" like his father, a > man Petunia despised. (Shades of Snape here?) > > And the final blow is the fear she must feel for her own family, a > fear we finally glimpse in OOTP. She's accepting a child from a > *freaky* (i.e. scary) world, a child who was the victim of attempted > murder by a very evil soul who murders people without compunction. > > No matter what assurances she received from Dumbledore to the > contrary (and surely the letter left on the doorstep was not enough > to make up Petunia's mind!), she must never feel truly safe after > accepting Harry. > > So adding up all the variables--the extra work, the spontaneous > magic, the resentment toward Lily and James for being magical > and "getting themselves killed", fear for her own family, pressure > from Dumbledore--whew! And she has no one to talk to about all this > besides Vernon? > > I'm actually less surprised she's so ugly to Harry and more > surprised she hasn't offed someone by now ;). Vernon gets to toddle > off to work every day and pretend Harry doesn't exist, but Petunia > is stuck with a constant reminder of the wide gulf between the life > she wanted and the life she got. Recipe for disaster. Well, I have been so angry at the way the Dursleys have treated Harry that it took me a long time to have ANY sympathy for them. But I will tell you (as the mother of two) that the time between about 12 months and 2 years is the MOST difficult. The kids are mobile, and NOT rational. You canNOT reason with an 18 month year old. Some kids are real easy; some kids can create havoc in an eye blink. I've had one of each. You'd think two adults with help from other adults could easily deal with one child..well, let me tell you, I was totally exhausted for a good two years. So....we can have sympathy for Petunia. Second, the Dursleys ARE absolutely terrified and ashamed of their wizarding relatives. And, then let's review what's happened..there's the incident with Dudley and the snake, Hagrid arrives and gives Dudley a pig's tail, their business associates have cake dumped on them...Aunt Marge is blown up.....Arthur blows their fireplace into their living room, and then Dudley's tongue swells to gargantuan size..then Dudley is attacked by Dementors...what have I missed? On the one hand, people who abuse kids deserve what they get, and I can't get too upset about what happens to bullies..... So, has someone figured out why Petunia agreed (and continues to agree) to shelter Harry? Susan McGee From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Oct 26 03:22:27 2003 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:22:27 -0000 Subject: How Did McGonagall know? In-Reply-To: <20031015110830.48653.qmail@web20713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Granny Goodwitch wrote: > > 15October2003 > > On 14October2003 Bohcoo wrote: > > "...When Hermoine made that comment (regarding the Ministry's intention to interfer at Hogwarts) to Harry, it was during the continuation of the speech Dumbledore had been making when > interrupted by Umbridge. All the teachers where still sitting at the > top table, listening to Dumbledore complete his welcome to the > students. There is no way on earth she could have overheard > Hermoine's quiet statements to Harry at the Griffendor table. > > So. How did she know what Hermoine said to Harry?" > But it IS quite obvious that Prof. M is Hermione's mentor. Let's remember the PoA. Prof. M has arranged for Hermione to get the time turner and take extra classes, and has vouched for her. They obviously have a relationship where Hermione talks to Prof. M. Remember -- Hermione went to Prof. M to talk about the Firebolt. I think that Hermione had already shared with Professor M. her impressions of Umbrage's political agenda, and of the Ministry of Magic's intention to take over Hogwarts (Fudge et aliae were projecting when they thought Dumbledore was going to use the students as an army; that's what Fudge was planning. Susan McGee From pmah4600 at mail.usyd.edu.au Sun Oct 26 03:26:31 2003 From: pmah4600 at mail.usyd.edu.au (The Kirk) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:26:31 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83578 G'day, haven't posted here in ages! I seem to recall that in the Decree allowing the Ministry to select a DADA teacher, the exact wording was "If the Headmaster is unable to find a *suitable* candidate", or words to that effect. Bertha Jorkins knew that Moody was going to be teaching at Hogwarts, and it appears that its common knowledge throughout the Ministry who is going to fill the post. I propose that any staff selection, even before the decrees, would have had to been approved by the Ministry. When Fudge was still asking for DD for advice, I imagine he would approve any teacher that DD proposed. But when things soured, I imagine Fudge would've refused any od DD's candidates as being 'unsuitable'. For all we know, DD could've have put forward Tonks, Moody, Bill, etc. only to have them all rejected by Fudge. Hope that made sense Roo From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 03:27:23 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:27:23 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Weasleys Not @ MOM Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83579 >I have been wondering where were Mr & Mrs Weasley when Sirius, Lupin >Tonks, Moody & the others came to Harry & the others rescue at the >MOM? >Her "wonderful clock" (as DD put it)would have shown Mrs W. that 2 of >her children were in mortal danger! So why would the parents not come >to the aid of their own children? The clock is at the Burrow, so if the Weasleys were at Grimmauld Place they would not have seen it. And if they did, it wouldn't have told them *where* the children were or in what kind of mortal danger -- they would have had to find this out. Lastly, didn't most of this take place late at night? Perhaps the Weasleys were asleep. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Want to check if your PC is virus-infected? Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 03:30:56 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:30:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dolores Umbridge (Goblin?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83580 Brian says: > Something I am curious about is whether or not Goblins are supposed >to be scared of ghosts. Did anyone notice that Umbridge never did >inspect Professor Binn's class? I bet it isn't ghosts in general, but Professor Binns in particular, that Umbridge was avoiding. Professor Binns, who apparently knows a lot about Goblins, could probably tell by looking at her if Umbridge was part Goblin. Being the sort of person she is, she probably doesn't want anyone to know. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 03:39:30 2003 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:39:30 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Droobles/Wizard Sweets (Was:Re: Odds and Ends) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83581 "annemehr" says: > >Neville's gran does *not* know it's going to be a Drooble's wrapper. >Though the thought that Wizard sweets in general, or Drooble's gum in >particular, may have some significance in the coming struggle feels >likely enough, I don't think that's the true point of this scene. I >think the real reason is to show that Alice does indeed recognize and >*love* her son. Besides, either she's improved some since GoF, when >Dumbledore tells Harry that Neville's parents don't recognize him, or >Dumbledore was mistaken. > She may be improving. Which may mean that she and Frank Longbottom will be in danger if this gets noticed; others in the mental ward who have improved have been given dangerous plants for presents so they couldn't tell what they knew. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 04:03:10 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 04:03:10 -0000 Subject: Erratum (was Guilty Again, etc ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > > No. Diary!Tom knew about Harry's history because Ginny had told him. Talisman, who has a wild little cat that likes to pounce from the roof, acknowledges: Yep, you are right. Ginny was the 411 for MemoryVort, there's no MV/LV communication link. That was an unfortunate shortcut on a side issue in a long post. I'll stand behind the much longer Wormtail/Moody explanation for LV's derivative information posted in #83543. Talisman, thinking of Donovan, and how you've got to pick up every stitch . . . . From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 05:46:30 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 05:46:30 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? ...Jaded Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83583 "laura" wrote: > > ... reading OOTP ...I found something ... interesting, ...in the > > room of requirement was 'a large, cracked foe-glass that Harry > > was sure had hung, the previous year, in the fake Moody's office' (uk edition p346) Why would't it have been a nice shiny unbroken > > foe-glass? And why the connection with fake Moody? > > ...edited... Reading this, I was struck by a random idea, which I'm hoping no one has already proposed (apologies in advance if it has been). Vampire!Snape broke the foe-glass. Here is the relevant scene from GoF. As Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall burst in to the office where Moody/Crouch has taken Harry after the third task: "Snape followed him, looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." This line has been taken as one of the key pieces of evidence by those who support the Vampire!Snape theory. Why would Snape have been so distracted by the Foe-Glass? Simple! Because, as a vampire, it's been years since he's seen his reflection in a mirror, and the Foe-Glass enables him to do this. However, he is only able to look for a short time before Dumbledore sends him off on an errand. I think he came back later, hoping for another look. But by the time he was able to do this, Crouch Jr. had been soul-sucked and the glass no longer responded to his enemies. Thus Snape was not able to get another look at his image, and in his frustration, either hit the Foe- Glass or threw something at it, causing it to crack. Erin (who doesn't even actually believe in Vampire!Snape, but thinks the theory is sort of fun) From greatraven at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 06:00:50 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:00:50 -0000 Subject: Aurors after Book 7 (was: could Harry be an auror?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83584 I'm wondering - less if Harry could be an auror (he could just as easily be a Quidditch player and a good one) than - how badly are they going to need aurors after the events of Book 7? Voldemort will be defeated - he *has* to be unless JKR wants to be pestered for a sequel. Possibly there will be a few years of mopping up DEs, but other than that - perhaps the aurors will continue as a sort of magical police force. Maybe that's what they are. But I keep thinking of the last scene of RETURN OF THE JEDI when I wonder what role there will be for Luke now. Nobody will need rebel leaders with the evil Empire destroyed and Jedi knights were around to defend the Republic, which is also gone.So - what could Harry do after Book 7, assuming he survives it and doesn't go over a cliff with LV? Perhaps he can still be an auror, but the glamour would be gone. And if his marks aren't good enough in certain subjects... :-) Sue From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sun Oct 26 06:34:56 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:34:56 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "purple_801999" wrote: > > Jeff wrote: > > Also, being rather old-fashioned, I'd guess that the school > > wouldn't use hotwater bottles, but rather do it the old way, with > the > > heated briquets in the pan instead. Rubber is too much of a muggle > > invention for them to use, imho. But I could be wrong. > > > It sounds as if they use heating pans. I think I remember in GoF > Harry being grateful the beds were pre warmed by the house elves with > heating pans. It's not so much that a hotwater bottle is too > muggleish but that a heating pan warms a bed better. A hotwater > bottle really only warms a small area of a bed unless kept against a > person. A heating pan would get the whole bed toasty. > > Olivia Jeff: I'd forgotten about that scene, but yes, heating pans is what I was meaning. I just couldn't recall the darn name. ;) It also wasn't that the bottle is mugglish, but that they tend to prefer the old way, as I was stating. We don't see much modern items in Hogwarts at all. I'm not even certain that those rather modern looking sinks and commodes that we see in the films would be what they'd have there either. Not that I think they'd have the really old castle loos, but at least those old loos with the chain and the water tank high above your head. ;) And again, they'd use those old large claw-foot tubs rather than modern showers, except for the Quidditch Lockerroom, since we know from the books that they have one there. Jeff From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 07:04:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:04:23 -0000 Subject: Droobles/Wizard Sweets ...voices from the Past. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennygbrooks" wrote: > Annemehr wrote: > > > Though the thought that Wizard sweets in general, or Drooble's > > gum in particular, may have some significance in the coming > > struggle feels likely enough, I don't think that's the true > > point of this scene. I think the real reason is to show that > > Alice does indeed recognize and *love* her son. >> > Penny: > > ... in that it is a nice scene for Neville, and develops his > character a bit for us. I still can't help thinking that the wrapper means something. > > ...edited... > > Penny Bee Drooble bboy_mn: Rather than repeat myself on this issue, I will refer you to two sections of a past discussion from Aug. that I'm sure you will find interesting. Aug 23, 2003 Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungos ( was Re: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79023 Aug 29, 2003 Re: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungo's http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79179 These address the issues of the gum wrappers, and Neville & his mothers relationship. These are my posts, but they will lead you to threads with significant comments by many members on these issues. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Oct 25 22:11:13 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:11:13 -0000 Subject: A thought about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83587 I am currently reading all the books for the umpteenth time and tonight reached the end of POA. This may have been touched on in the past but a thought crossed my mind as I was reading the scene where the group leave the Whomping Willow after the goings-on in the Shrieking Shack and Lupin begins to transform as the moon comes out. This would, of course, have affected the plot line of the book, but why didn't somebody pull out a wand and either use "Petrificus Totalus" or "Stupefy" on Lupin to stop him? OK, it would have ruined the next two books but it would seem to have been logical. Wearily dons tin helmet and retires to bomb shelter to await flak from other posters giving me thirty three different reasons why I'm off my trolley. Geoff From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Sat Oct 25 01:58:42 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:58:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? ...Jaded Eyes References: Message-ID: <004001c39a9b$855ed960$f692aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83588 > bboy_mn: > That covers the cracks, but why JKR made such a specific point of > bring the Foe Glass into that scene and specifically mentioning Moody, > I can not say. Certainly, she could have made it a general purpose Foe > Glass with a casual mention like all the other dark detectors. > Certanly, if the room manufactures the objects found within, then > there would be no reason for it to conjure a 'cracked' Foe Glass. It > seems she made a point of it, Moody's Glass, but never used that > point. The Foe Glass, that I recall, never became significant in the > story. So, on that one point, I am baffled. Iggy here: Well, for one thing, the Foe Glass is a Dark Detector, and is a fundamental part of basic DADA knowledge IMHO. With all the detectors there, Harry would be able to show people what each one is and explain its use. On the other hand, had the Foe Glass not been cracked, it would have been in working order... and therefore would have shown the approach of Umbridge and her Squad with much more time to escape than Dobby's warning gave them. It's also a pretty basic piece of Auror equipment and the DA is pretty much an "ROTC" for Aurors at this point. (ROTC is a college or high school program in the US that trains students for life in the military as officers...They probably have an equivalent in the UK or Australia.) Iggy McSnurd From diversity33 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 08:02:29 2003 From: diversity33 at hotmail.com (Kath Lane) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:02:29 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How I think book 7 will end Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83589 >From: Tanya Swaine >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How I think book 7 will end >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:55:03 +1300 > >Another possible scenario could be Harry giving up his magic powers > >through a similar spell to protect his friend, this binds LV's powers > >with it and being magic-less, LV destroys himself. > > > >Just theories... That would be rather too close to Le Guin's "Earthsea" trilogy ending, where the hero sacrifices his wizard powers to save the world from the evil overlord ... but probably the connection between Harry and Voldemort will have a large part to play (maybe with such a connection they _both_ have to die ...) in the final showdown. K _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From hieya at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 10:03:15 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:03:15 -0000 Subject: A thought about POA, Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > This would, of course, have affected the plot line of the book, but > why didn't somebody pull out a wand and either use "Petrificus > Totalus" or "Stupefy" on Lupin to stop him? OK, it would have ruined > the next two books but it would seem to have been logical. I think that Lupin in the werewolf state is too powerful magically to be knocked down by a simple spell like "Stupefy" or "Petrificus Totalus", just like acromantulas and dragons. In the book Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, werewolves are considered among the most dangerous of magical creatures, which means that only trained experts can deal with them. (I recall reading about a Werewolf Capture Unit). If people could stop werewolves by a simple spell, then the wizarding world would not be so afraid of them, and Lupin might not have had to live with so much prejudice. greatlit2003 From hieya at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 10:41:10 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:41:10 -0000 Subject: Could Lupin come back? Will Harry want to come back? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83591 I was thinking about the many parallels between Harry and Remus, and for the sixth book, no similarity is more important than the fact that ****They both pose a threat to their friends**** Harry is now aware of why Voldemort wants to kill him, and knows also that anyone trying to save him is a possible target for the Death Eaters. This means that all of his close friends are in danger. Harry is carrying the weight of four dead people on his conscience. With this new knowledge, will Harry want to come back? In the midst of his grief, he has only two options available: 1. He can be sad and hide in Privet Drive 2. He can be angry and want revenge Knowing Harry as we do, we all know which path he will choose. While Harry felt a hopeless sort of anger in OoP, I think that he will have a more focused anger in the sixth book, a pent-up energy that will make him work untiringly towards his goal. This is the sort of energy that helped Sirius escape Azkaban. It is also the thing that makes Snape go back to spy on the Death Eater meetings, knowing fully well that he may not come back alive one day. Going back to Remus, I notice that Lupin, in spite of his many admirable qualities, does not have this pent-up energy (or he hides it well). He doesn't seem angry about the way people treat him. (It's possible that he simply did not want to show anger in front of young Harry, but in general, Lupin has shown a very calm nature) Is this just his personality, or has he accepted his situation with a quiet resignation? Personally, I don't think Harry should just accept his own situation (that would ruin the plot of the story) But, currently, the prospect of defeating V-mort seems as bleak as werewolves gaining political rights. There is a terrible irony in this situation, that Lupin is working tirelessly to protect a society that wouldn't shed a tear if he died. So, I wonder, who is the most terrible monster in Harry's world? Is it Voldemort, or the society which he seeks to dominate? Why is Lupin so willing to fight one monster, but willing to just accept the other? What is the key difference between the two monsters that makes it acceptable for Lupin to resign from his position, but makes it unacceptable for Harry to run away from Hogwarts? They are both dangerous to their friends. Why should Harry come back to Hogwarts, but not Lupin? greatlit2003 From ilojika at yahoo.es Sun Oct 26 00:25:47 2003 From: ilojika at yahoo.es (Ilo Gica) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 00:25:47 -0000 Subject: Percy Ignatius Weasley In-Reply-To: <008301c39a5b$00b3f140$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83592 Mary Jo: > 2. Could St. Ignatius of Loyola be somehow a model for Percy? I know that St. Ignatius of Loyola was originally a soldier, and when he was an invalid from wounds received during battle, he read a book about the life of a saint, and decided to try to be a saint himself. Does this part of his life represent ambitious Percy? St. Ignatius later said that the biggest and most important thing he had to learn was humility. Are we going to see Percy humbled? Or is he in reality already an undercover spy? The order St. Ignatius did institute became famous for its excellent education and teaching of logic. Perhaps this is an indication that Percy will end up as the teacher at Hogwarts. > > I am not fully satisfied with any of these ideas. Does anyone else think that his middle name is somehow a clue? I know i?m just a lowly newbie with very poor English skills but I think I have to speak my mind on this subject: St. Ignatius lived in a time of revolutions. A time of espiritual crisis. The Church was splitted into many other churches and so on. Apart from the Protestant Reform, the Catholic church went into a Reform as well. And St. Ignatius played an important part there when he founded the Jesuits. The Pope wasn't as important as he used to be. He lost a lot of his power and credibility. One of the traits of the Jesuits is their almost fanatical obbedience to the Pope. As I see it, the name Ignatius means that in a period of great crisis (Voldemort?s return to be exact), Percy would stick up fanatically for the Minister of Magic, to the point of leaving everything behind, rejecting his own family. I doubt there are deeper meanings regarding Wizarding religions. JKR?s point was something less complicated. ilogica From maryjo at neyersoftware.com Sun Oct 26 01:08:11 2003 From: maryjo at neyersoftware.com (Mary Jo Neyer) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:08:11 -0400 Subject: Albus Percival Brian Wulfric Dumbldore Message-ID: <008b01c39b5d$a022b9c0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83593 One of the major themes of JKR is unity of the various houses. Dumbledore's personal names reflect the various cultures of the U.K. combined in one very wise person. Albus means WHITE, of course, but in Latin there is a distinction between bright white and bright black, which are candidus and niger, and plain white and plain black , which are albus and atra. DD is of the plain, or non-flashy, sort of person. Of course Alba Longa was also the Roman name for Britain, so one could say that Albus is the masculine version of a symbol of England, as well as evoking the country's Roman past. PERCIVAL is believed to be a drastically altered Welsh name PEREDUR, modified by French as if it were derived from Old French percer to pierce and val valley. Here we have the Welsh and French elements which helped form the U.K. Of course Percival was the one perfectly pure knight who could hold the Holy Grail, sanctified by Christ's BLOOD in Arthurian legend. Is DD godfather to Percy? The similarity of names made me wonder about this. Brian from a Gaelic word meaning HIGH or NOBLE. Beloved by the Irish because of the great 10th century high king Brian Boru. Here we have the IRISH element of the U.K. WULFRIC An Anglo-Saxon name meaning kingdom of the Wolf. Since the basis of England were the Anglo-Saxons, it is only reasonable to include a name representing this element of U.K. culture. So in DD's personal names we see the Roman, Welsh, French, Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon cultures of the U.K. all in a type of representation. Mary Jo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smartswimmer514 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 03:08:43 2003 From: smartswimmer514 at yahoo.com (smartswimmer514) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:08:43 -0000 Subject: More of Dumbledore's brilliant plan? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83594 At the end of OOP, we all know about the "talk" between Harry and Albus. However, I(and I know I'm not alone) think that Dumbledore has an even more secret plan he hasn't let Harry know about. Remember, we're not quite sure if Voldemort has lost the ability to read Harry's mind, and Dumbledore has a habit of drawing up these brilliant schemes. I think we'll be very surprised by the events of the next two books. P.S. What exactly is Harry's power? If I'm not mistaken, I think that Dumbledore was rather vague on that issue. From KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net Sun Oct 26 00:55:45 2003 From: KagomeShikonSeeker at BonBon.net (Kagome Shikon Seeker) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 17:55:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Butterbeer (Re: Bat Bogey Hex) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83595 Gorda: Maybe it's something like a buttery nipple (Butterscotch, Schnapps and Irish cream) but with beer instead of the Irish cream Or maybe like a spiked eggnog type thing Kagome: I don't think so. In GoF, Harry comments that Butterbeer isn't strong (when Winky is getting drunk on it). Dobby disputes that, saying, "It is for house elves." This - along with the fact that children order it regularly in Hogsmeade, and no fuss is made over it, as well as Lupin giving it to Harry on at least one occasion - tells us that if it is alcoholic, the amount must be miniscule. I can't imagine even in the wizarding community, teachers and parents allowing 11 year old children to drink alcohol. No, I'd imagine it's about as "alcoholic" as Ginger Beer, although what it tastes like is still unknown. Kagome: (Wondering if JKR won't help come up with some sort of drink that tastes like what Butterbeer does.) From patnkatng at cox.net Sun Oct 26 12:51:22 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:51:22 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: <20031026005937.96156.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83596 Laura wrote: > > > > Sorry, not buying. Having young children didn't > > stop the Potters or > > the Longbottoms from being active Order members-I > > know the Weasleys > > had a bunch more than either of those couples but > > still. Then Kathryn responded: > Here's another suggestion. We never hear anything > about the Weasley's having close family or the > parent's having adult friends. The Potters on the > other hand possibly still had living parents and we > know they had friends (Arabella Figg) that could watch > Harry. But with as many children as the Weasley's > have it would be difficult for the parents to be away > from home. Also, for a decent amount of that time > (like around the time the Potters were killed) Mrs. > Weasley would have been pregnant with Ginny, so I > doubt they would have a pregnant woman fighting > Voldemort. Just a thought in defense of my favorite > wizarding family:) Now Katrina weighs in: As a mother of twin toddlers, I have to add that there is *no comparison* between raising them and raising a single toddler. The thought of Fred & George as toddlers sends shivers up my spine. To add other little ones to the mix - and another on the way - is way more than I want to contemplate. IMHO, when (IF) Molly had any time to spare, she spent it sleeping. Katrina From suzie_t666 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 13:41:40 2003 From: suzie_t666 at hotmail.com (Paul Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:41:40 -0000 Subject: First prediction's happened, third possible? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83597 Hey everyone, Just been looking through the FAQs for OotP and a thought occured to me when looking at the ones concerned with the prophecy. Are we being lured by JKR into thinking Trelawny's first prediction is more important than it actually is? Consider Trelawny's second prediction in POA. In contrast to how her first prediction appears, it is relatively short-term. Apart from the "greater and more terrible than ever before" part, the prediction is concerned with the events that take place later that night. What if, contrary to popular belief, the events of the first prediction have already happened? If the second prediction was so short-term, I find it entirely plausible, given the necessary interpretation, that the first prediction has the same properties. Here's how I see ambiguous discrepencies in the first prediction, by looking at the meaning of certain words. vanquish verb to defeat an opponent, especially in war: (taken from the Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary) If Harry had the power to defeat his opponent (especially in war), then he has already done it. Voldemort was comprehensively defeated at Godric's Hollow, and it took him 14 years and the help of a servant to be able to reply. The fact that one of them has to die is trickier, but Voldemort was *hit* by an Avada Kedavra, and so in theory did die. His spirit left his body as in death (I wonder what happened to that original body), but his spirit, through whatever spell or transformation Voldemort had managed, stayed in this world, rather than going on to the next. If my theory is right (I won't hold my breath), it means that Dumbledore and Harry are both believing something that will put them at a disadvantage in the next book(s), and it'll give JKR a big shock to deliver to Harry and us readers later on. Of course it also means that both sides have been wasting their time with a redundant prophecy for a whole year, which leads me to believe that something else has taken place behind the scenes to make the book significant as a whole to the series. Maybe it's enough that Dumbledore and Harry have been misled, but my mind wanders again to whatever Wormtail has been up to, and the possibility that Trelawny has made a third prediction to someone off- stage. Perhaps it's been a little too convenient that her two previous predictions were made in the presence of Dumbledore and Harry. Can she control when they happen, and in front of whom? If she has already had her third, was it in front of Umbridge? If so, maybe it triggered Umbridge's decision to finally sack Trelawny, and in such a public way? Maybe the fact that Trelawny can't remember making her predictions contributed to her being so distraught during that scene? The possibilities if I go down that road are endless, so I won't. Please let me know what you think about all this, if I'm just crazy or if it's all made uneasy sense for you. I'd love to know what you think. Until then, lots of love Suze. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 26 15:58:49 2003 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Soph) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 15:58:49 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83598 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: > It would help, I think, to have a baseline from which to theorize. > Would any of the Brits care to expound on the general state of sex > education in the British boarding school system? I went to a Catholic high school and our sex education consisted of 6 weeks of one hour lessons when we were 12 and 4 weeks of one hour lessons when we were 14. And they were some of the most excruciatingly embarrassing hours of my life. And to be honest we didn't learn much. So as others have mentioned most of the real sex education that happened at my school came from whispered conversations with friends. Hence my old school's appalling teenage pregnancy rate. Applying this to Hogwarts, well Harry and co have already passed the ages that I received my sex education without a murmur about it. It could be dealt with in 6th or 7th year but surely the Weasley twins would have delighted in telling Ron and Harry what awaited them. Or perhaps it is something that is dealt with at home? I can just imagine Ron emerging from a room, face as red as his hair after a that talk with his father. Or maybe one of his brothers talked to him about it? ~ Sophie From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 26 16:02:28 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 26 Oct 2003 16:02:28 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1067184148.21.73430.m15@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83599 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, October 26, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 16:15:24 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 16:15:24 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83600 Corinth said: >I was simply suggesting that a > relationship wasn't necessary to explain how Dobby could be set free > by Harry's sock. In my theory, the only one who had to be convinced > that the sock was given by Malfoy was Dobby himself, and he decided > the one second possession was enough. > > -Corinth Me: I don't understand why this is up for debate. Harry gave the sock to Lucius, therefore it was Lucius's sock when he gave it to Dobby. James Redmont From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 16:51:40 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 16:51:40 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katrina" wrote: > > As a mother of twin toddlers, I have to add that there is *no > comparison* between raising them and raising a single toddler. The thought of Fred & George as toddlers sends shivers up my spine. To add other little ones to the mix - and another on the way - is way more than I want to contemplate. Laura again: Sorry, still not buying. We didn't have twins but we did have kids 2 1/2 years apart, so I do remember all too well how utterly exhausted you get. Still...this is a war we're talking about here. Are you arguing that there was *nothing* either Arthur or Molly could do to help the cause? I repeat, no one was safe while LV and his little friends were powerful. Getting involved in the fight against the force that threatened everyone's lives would have been the best way to make sure your kids grew up. Okay, I'm pretty ticked off at Molly for insulting Sirius (in his own house yet) and being generally overprotective and annoying but still... From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 16:57:13 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 16:57:13 -0000 Subject: A thought about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: This may have been touched on in the past but a thought crossed my > mind as I was reading the scene where the group leave the Whomping > Willow after the goings-on in the Shrieking Shack and Lupin begins to transform as the moon comes out. > > This would, of course, have affected the plot line of the book, but why didn't somebody pull out a wand and either use "Petrificus > Totalus" or "Stupefy" on Lupin to stop him? Laura: I'd theorize that those spells simply stop a person's forward motion but don't affect any autonomic motor function. Transforming is an involuntary process-like breathing-for werewolves, right? So you'd need a much more powerful spell to stop the process, if such a spell even exists. The Wolfsbane Potion doesn't stop the transformation; it just eases the mental effects. I'd assume that if a spell existed that could stop a werewolf from transforming, our boys James and Sirius would have found out about it. There now, Geoff, that wasn't too painful, was it? *smiles* From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Oct 26 17:12:19 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:12:19 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Laura again: > > Sorry, still not buying. We didn't have twins but we did have kids > 2 1/2 years apart, so I do remember all too well how utterly > exhausted you get. Still...this is a war we're talking about here. > Are you arguing that there was *nothing* either Arthur or Molly > could do to help the cause? I repeat, no one was safe while LV and > his little friends were powerful. Getting involved in the fight > against the force that threatened everyone's lives would have been > the best way to make sure your kids grew up. > > Okay, I'm pretty ticked off at Molly for insulting Sirius (in his > own house yet) and being generally overprotective and annoying but > still... I think it is also a question of connections, who is in the order, and who isn't. I am sure there are several wizards and witches who want to help, but don't know about the order, because the members don't know them well enough to trust them. This was probably also the case in the first war. I think the Order consisted of a few persons Dumbledore trusted and their friends. Maybe the Weasleys weren't known enough by the members of the first Order. As far as we know, even Minerva McGonagall wasn't a member of the first Order, and Flitwick and Sprout aren't members know. Hickengruendler From lb140900 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 13:18:04 2003 From: lb140900 at yahoo.com (Louis Badalament) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:18:04 -0000 Subject: We'll Never Ever Be Able To Guess The Sixth DADA Teacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83604 Alright, folks, this is something that's been stewing around in my brain for quite a while. I was actually meaning to keep it there, but something I read online just now finally set me off writing this. You can find it here; http://www.theorderofthephoenix.net/harry-potter-destiny.htm But to cut a long story short, it theorizes that some of the potential candidates for Defense Against The Dark Arts could be Bill Weasely, Fleur, Viktor, Remus, or Tonks. I read this, and just started thinking to myself; 'this all goes against Rowling's whole *system* with Defense Against the Dark Arts Teachers.' Let's review some basic facts; 1) A DADA Teacher's Name Never Comes Up Before The Book He Or She Comes In As A DADA Teacher. They just never do. Gilderoy Lockhart's name isn't ever refered to anywhere in Book One, even though he's a popular author with all these famous exploits tied to his name. Dolores Umbridge not only holds the prestigous position of Senior Undersecretary, but is also slavishly devoted to serving Cornelius Fudge and flaunting her connection with him. Why is it she failed to accompany Fudge to Hagrid's Hut, or to the Quidditch World Cup? If she's such a big figure in the Ministry, why is it Arthur Weasley never mentioned the woman in any offhanded discussion about his job? I'm sure Umbridge would have been every bit as infuriating, sadistic, power- hungry and invasive among fellow government workers as she is with teachers and pupils - and people really don't keep quiet if they're being exposed to that kind of treatment. These are just two examples, but the fact remains that backstory, prestige, or no, these people might as well not exist until Dumbledore grants them the DADA post. DADA Teachers are meant to be an indeterminate x- factor, whose actual value is only revealed at the time of Rowling's choosing. 2) Harry Always First Learns Or Is Exposed To His Current DADA Teacher Shortly Before Arriving At Hogwarts The Year That Teacher Starts Teaching This is a small point, yet it's always a given - it's like Rowling is giving us a little sneak peek of the DADA teachers' characters before they get to business at Hogwarts. Harry first meets Quirrel in the Leaky Cauldron over the first year's summer. Harry meets Lockhart is Flourish and Blotts', also during the summertime. He meets Lupin on the train, and while that's admittedly *closer* to Hogwarts in terms of time and geography, it is not *actually* Hogwarts, so my statement stands. Mad-Eye Moody detracts the most from the pattern set thus far; he only first appears bodily in Harry's life *at* Hogwarts. Yet, Arthur Weasley discussed Moody with his family and Harry at the Burrow, so he still was able to *learn* about Moody. 'Aha!' Some of you nitpickers might be saying. 'But Moody wasn't Moody there, Moody was Crouch Jr., whom Harry didn't learn about until he had that face-to-face talk with Sirius, well into his school term.' I would argue that Harry *was* exposed to Crouch Jr., at the Quidditch World Cup. Junior stole Harry's wand. Harry even *heard* Junior shout "Morsmorde!", though he had no *idea* who it was shouting. Thus, whether it's Junior or Moody you're focusing on, the rule still applies. Harry met Umbridge at his hearing; he heard her name, saw her face, and heard her voice. So you can bet that whoever Six and Seven are, Harry will probably see them just prior to going to Hogwarts, and never before. 3) Snape Already Had His Fling At Defense Against The Dark Arts It was in Book Three, remember? Remus Lupin was 'not available,' so Snape filled in as a substitute. Rowling just gave us enough here to let us know that Snape is just as loathsome teaching this subject as Potions, before handing command back to Lupin. Snape is already multifaceted enough as Potions Master, Former Death Eater, Order Spy, Dumbledore Servant, Slytherin Head of House, One-Time Quidditch Referee, Dark Arts Expert, Potter Nemesis, Voldermort Foe, Hate- Filled Malinger, Pedantic Rule-Lover, Trauma-Inflicted Youngster, and Occulmency Expert. On one hand, I'm absolutely certain that Rowling will reveal still more about Snape's character in future books, it won't be in Defense Against The Dark Arts. DADA revels nothing new about his character. 4) The DADA Teacher Always Has A Big Secret That, If Exposed, Would Spell Ruin For The Teacher. Quirrel had Voldemort on the other end of his head. Lockhart is a coward and a thief of real heroes' accomplishments. Lupin is a werewolf, and best friend to Sirius Black. Moody is Crouch Junior, a man supposed to be dead. Umbridge ordered Dementors on The-Boy- Who-Lived in the middle of a Muggle residency - also, she was subverting the truth about Voldemort's existence. Having a dark and terrible secret, in fact, seems to be the only real prequisite for the teaching position. These teachers all have very *fatal* personal failings that no Mary Sue is able to accomplish. I would challenge those who think Bill, or Fleur, or Viktor might be DADA teacher to come out and tell me what horrible skeletons these folks are supposed to have into their closets. We KNOW all these people already! They offer no surprises. 5) The DADA Teacher Takes Center Stage At Hogwarts At Some Point No Professor Flitwicks here. Lockhart couldn't shut up about himself, and made a big stink about every opinion he had. He organized the Dueling Club and Valentine's Day. Lupin had something of a 'slow start,' but he quickly won the love of almost the entire student body. By the end of his term, they were all sad to see him go. Mad-Eye Moody was famous to begin with when he first stepped in; his brusque mannerism, knack for teaching, fascinating history - not to mention his involvement in the Triwizard Tournament, made him a real presence at Hogwarts. And Umbridge just couldn't be suppressed, with all those decrees and the way she snatched control over the school. Quirrel, it can be argued, is the one who shies away most from the spotlight; yet after the whole school heard about the fight between him and Harry over the Sorceror's Stone, a flood of well-wishers sent Harry gifts. Would Bill, Fleur, Tonks, or Viktor be able to inspire such renown? 6) The DADA Teacher Places Harry Potter In Real Peril At Least Once, If Not More There is just something in these people's nature. Quirrel jinxed Harry's broom and tried to kill him for the Sorcerer's Stone. Lockhart would've blasted away Harry's memory with that charm of his, destroying his ability to function in society, and landing him a long-term residence in St. Mungo's. Lupin forgot to take that potion that one time, and Harry had to be rescued from his werewolf- self by Sirius. Crouch Junior arranged for Harry to be transported to Voldemort directly, and afterwards tried to kill Harry himself in his office. Umbridge arranged for Harry to have his soul sucked out, subjected him to torture, constant surveillance , derision, and a steady loss of privileges. Would Bill, Fleur, Tonks, or whoever you have in mind, ever have reason to attack Harry? 7) NOBODY WANTS THE JOB!!! I'll come out and say this; Tonks probably *would* make a very fine DADA Professor. So would Bill. So would Fleur. If absolutely nothing else, they could probably get quite a lot of the students to like them. These people are competent and efficient, which is more of what Hogwarts, and Harry, needs in his life. They would be the sort of people you'd want for your OWN education, or those of your kids. Unfortunately, these people already HAVE their own jobs, and their own interests that probably don't involve teaching. Unfortunately, the job is jinxed, so even if Dumbledore offered half the gold in total tuition money, nobody would take it. Unfortunately, life for Harry and everyone good is going straight to Hell; so a nice, kind teacher who's experienced at DADA, a friend to Harry, and well-balanced mentally is probably not in the cards. Whoever he gets next is probably going to provide conflict for Harry in spades. Albus Dumbledore has been scraping the bottom of the barrel since the death of Nofirstname Quirrel. In Book 2, he got an egomaniac who was only in it for one more 'accomplishment' to pin to his name and a forum of listeners who have to listen to him daily. In Book 3, he got a guy who, while talented in his own right, couldn't find paid work anywhere else. In Book 4, he begged an retired friend into doing him a favor; Moody even told the class that he was only in it for a year. In Book 5, he was COMPLETELY UNABLE TO FIND ANYONE, good old Cornelius Fudge forced his toady on him. Dumbledore doesn't care so much about quality at this point. After Umbridge, he may reinforce a few better standards, but basically all he wants now is some warm body over seventeen years of age to stand up and keep the kids sitting in their seats for an hour each day. Viktor, Fleur, and Bill are all in enough danger without having to go into a job where a large stroke of bad luck is going to blindside them at the end of their first year. I actually shudder to think Who Dumbledore does manage to get at the end of this year. A mental case? Someone who doesn't even speak English? His brother, Aberforth? 7) The DADA Teachers Are Unable to Be Predicted In addition to not knowing their specific identities, we really have no way of knowing what they bring, as people, to the forefront. It's always something big, though. I defy any of you 'old-timers' out there, who remember the extent of our knowledge while we were waiting for Goblet of Fire to be released, to look me in the eye and tell me you saw Mad-Eye Moody / Crouch Junior coming a mile away. We knew Voldermort had supporters, but we didn't know they were called 'Death Eaters,' or that the soldiers who fought them were called 'Aurors,' or that there were threee particularly Unforgivable Curses. Personally speaking, the biggest surpirse to me here was that there was *one specific* curse set aside just for killing, instead of 687, as in your typical RPG. Could you have honestly predicted Remus Lupin based solely on the evidence shown in Books 1 and 2? We knew there were werewolves, but we couldn't have guessed Harry's father would be best friends with one, or that he'd be so kind, or that they had such good nicknames for themselves and were amazing cartographers. What about Dolores Umbridge? We knew Fudge was going to undermine Dumbledore. Our best guess would've been with dry lawyers and regulations. Who could've predicted Madame Poisonhoney? Who would've thought of things in terms of lacerating quills, technicolor kittens, the Headmistress status, and girlish tone-of-voice? Who, but Rowling? We were all so very sure it was going to be Arabella Figg, or Fleur Delacour, remember? What makes you sure you can predict who it's going to be this time? 8) The DADA Teacher Remains For Only One Year, And Then Leaves In Some Spectacularly Dramatic Fashion This would seem to be self-evident, but it's important to note. Rowling gives them only a year. Given everything else I have noted, especially concerning the Dark Secret each of them have, it can be said that each DADA teacher is, in the end, so thoroughly undone by whatever personal failing he or she has, that they can no longer remain at Hogwarts. Quirrel died in battle. Lockhart went off to St. Mungo's. Lupin was revealed to be a werewolf by Snape, turning many of the parents against him. His love for Harry showed deeply as he left. Crouch Junior was robbed of his soul. And Umbridge was chased out of Hogwarts by Peeves and the entire school, a total disgrace. Before telling me why Viktor or Bill would make a great teacher, tell me how you think he'd be removed from Hogwarts, and why? Final Words) I *think* I got everything out. It was a long write. I know this is a place where we all floruish in the hypothetical... but the line of thinking which concludes "Fleur is sure to be the next DADA Professor!" is something I've been exposed to for too many long years. I'd like you all to think about the points I'm bringing up, because I'm not pulling this out of thin air, here. With the DADA professors, I believe we should approach this not so much in terms of what we already know, what's already been done, but rather in terms of, "Where have we *not* gone?" And this is going to be hard, because we know so very little about Book 6. Personally, I wish that cute little brown-eyed boy who charmed Rowling into admitting Book 5 was titled 'Order of the Phoneix' could be shuttled over to Edinburgh and cast his spell on her all over again. At any rate, I hope you all enjoyed reading this. - Louis Badalament From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 14:47:08 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 06:47:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dobby revisited Message-ID: <20031026144708.39226.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83605 26Oct03 B Arrowsmith wrote: JKR has famously said that she nearly gave the game away in CoS. The 'why' of it all. Could this be part of it? A critical connection that was unsuspected, with the behaviour of Elves the linking clue through three books? Granny responds: Thanks Arrowsmith! I'm still in total agreement with you. In spite of recent posts quoting Dobby in CoS:"... life has improved for my kind since you triumphed over He Who Must Not Be Named....", I have suspected and still suspect a critical connection with the behaviour of Elves. And, the best evidence is, as you cited, that as far as we know Harry is not related to Dobby's then masters, the Malfoys. Penny Bee wrote: "I think that somehow Harry is related to LV ... ! I'm leaning toward the idea that somehow the connection is through Lily's family (and somehow Aunt Petunia is tied in)...but there really isn't any canon yet to back this up. " Granny: Yes, Penny. As an old mystery lover, I've been thinking along these lines too. Do you ever get the feeling that JKR was an Agatha Christie fan in her youth? I get the same kind of thrill of searching for clues in the HP Saga as I do in the Christie mysteries. And so far, the clues have always had a way of being tied together. Granny Goodwitch --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mail at chartfield.net Sun Oct 26 16:02:31 2003 From: mail at chartfield.net (queen_astrofiammante) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 16:02:31 -0000 Subject: Why *didn't* Dumbledore fill DADA post? (Re: Potion Master...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83606 Hagrid wrote: > Any good wizard or witch trusted by DD for DADA would be busy in > the Order. The only exception was Sirius Black. He would have been > great, if not for the fact that every Auror and dementor in the > country was after him. Heck, Dobby would be preferable to Umbridge. It's a lovely thought. Think how all the girls would have swooned every time he walked into the classroom. But unfortunately I think Sirius would have made a terrible if extremely popular teacher, being rather on the reckless and anti- authoritarian side himself. I'm just trying to imagine how some of Professor "It's the risk that makes it fun" Black's lesson's might have turned out... (there's a fanfic in that for someone) Also, could you see him having a lot of patience with the Neville Longbottoms of this world? From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 17:30:57 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:30:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031026173057.77716.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83607 --- hickengruendler wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" > wrote: > > > > > Laura again: > > Are you arguing that there was *nothing* either > Arthur or Molly > > could do to help the cause? I repeat, no one was > safe while LV and > > his little friends were powerful. Getting > involved in the fight > > against the force that threatened everyone's lives > would have been > > the best way to make sure your kids grew up. > I think it is also a question of connections, who is > in the order, > and who isn't. I am sure there are several wizards > and witches who > want to help, but don't know about the order, > because the members > don't know them well enough to trust them. > > Hickengruendler > Don't forget that they didn't have to be in the Order to help out. There are less than thirty people mentioned in connection with the Order. I can't believe that only thirty people in the entire WW were doing anything against Voldemort. It's quite possible they were contributing even though they weren't part of an organization. Or they may have been other "orders" as well (probably less powerful though, as they don't have Dumbledore). Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From rredordead at aol.com Sun Oct 26 17:49:36 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:49:36 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83608 theultimatesen wrote: I figure it's pretty obvious why they weren't in the order. Their hands were tied up with the babies. First priority at that time. Laura: Sorry, not buying. Having young children didn't stop the Potters or the Longbottoms from being active Order members- Anyhow, not being in the Order didn't mean you were safe from LV- and we know that the Weasleys have a reputation for not taking their pureblood status too seriously. Now me: I have to disagree Laura and agree with theultimatesen above. The active persecution of the WW by Voldemort and his Death Eaters was in full swing when the Potters and Longbottoms fell pregnant with their sons. They were already involved with the Order and actively fighting. I'm sure neither wanted to step aside because of a birth of a baby. They somehow thought they would manage I expect, or they believed themselves to be so deeply involved they had no other choice. Molly and Arthur, on the other hand already had children before the really serious killing and persecutions started taking place, so it would be easier for them to take a back seat and choose not to be actively involved for the safety of their family. Besides we don't know what Arthur may have been doing at the Ministry for Dumbledore and the Order on the quiet. Mandy From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 18:04:01 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:04:01 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Pensieve" wrote: Kathy wrote: > My personal belief is that in book 7 we will discover that Dobby was the Potter's House Elf. Since the house was destroyed and he had no place to go...Dumbledore managed to find a way to place him with the Malfoys. > > Years later when Dobby heard Harry's name, he knew it was up to him to do something to save his true 'master'. > > Perhaps this will also answer the question of some of the 'missing > time' from the first book. For a long time I was convinced that the Potters and Malfoys were (closely) related and that was why Dobby was able to visit Harry. But if the families were close enough for Dobby to visit Harry the way Kreacher visited Narcissa, then surely Draco would have let the information slip sometime already. And if the Potters were his original family, why hasn't Dobby "returned" to Harry? Is it because he is still a minor? The Evans, OTOH, would be a different matter. I've posted before that I think there are wizards/witches several generations back i the Evans family. Draco may not know of a connection between his family and the Evans, so couldn't let it slip. Dobby would feel the connection to Harry, but is staying with the Malfoys until Harry leaves school. He is smart and would have been listening for any information the Malfoys would drop in conversaton about the Potters, so knew that Harry was "great." Kathy may be onto something. If Dumbledore placed Dobby with the Malfoys, it may be that either Dumbledore knew Petunia would not accept Dobby, or that Petunia refused to have Dobby around. Just how old is Dobby anyway? Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 18:21:45 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:21:45 -0000 Subject: Bat Bogey Hex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83610 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Having read the thread on the psychoanalysis of COS, I am coming to > the conclusion that I have either led a very sheltered life or am > very naive (no suggestions please!). I have read the HP books for > pleasure; am I unusual, because I must admit that I do not reach the > end of a book and then start looking for hidden meanings and > innuendos? I do find great interest and amusement in the various > theories that are put forward as we read and re-read and compare > notes and think that, if JKR has worked all those ideas into her > plot, she must have spent years working out the inter-relationship of > topics! But even so, I still like to read a book as a piece of > narrative. Perhaps I should take a few days away from HPFGU and go > and lie down quietly. No, you aren't the only one. When it comes to stories like this, I prefer to think about the plot and leave the symbolism to others. As the father of psychoanalysis supposedly said, Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Ravenclaw Bookworm From Ali at zymurgy.org Sun Oct 26 18:45:57 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:45:57 -0000 Subject: Speaking up for Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83611 Susan McGee asked:- > > So, has someone figured out why Petunia agreed (and continues to > agree) to shelter Harry? This is actually a section from a post I wrote in the summer, I don't unfortunately have the message number. It's my favourite explanation of why Petunia would take Harry in. I have to be honest though, and say that not many people seem to agree with me! << Petunia took Harry "grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly" (P. 737 OoP). But, this does not seem to be the action of an Aunt acting only from her desire to save her nephew's life or be seen to do the right thing. I think Dumbledore rules this out by his howler as "she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you. [He] suspected the Dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son". No, this pact means that Petunia gained something in return for taking Harry in, to counteract the first assault on her non-magical refuge. If Petunia craved respectability and normality above all else, then I would suspect that the only thing important enough for her to take in her despised nephew, was to stop something that was a threat to that way of life. I believe that either Petunia or Dudley had shown some sign of magical power, and Petunia's pact with Dumbledore was to prevent it from being taken any further. I have chosen to think that it was Dudley who at a young age had shown some magical prowess, Petunia's reaction to it was Dudley's worst memory. What would be worse for Petunia than her own beloved son showing signs of the very thing that she despises most? Petunia dealt with this "problem" by smothering Dudley, in an effort to protect him from himself. Perhaps the pact with Dumbledore was to stop Dudley getting a Hogwarts letter. If Petunia then threw Harry out, Dumbledore would make Dudley aware of his magical inheritance. Thus, Petunia deals with Harry's magical abilities by trying to squash them out, without success, but by pampering her son, she proves successful.>> Ali From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 26 19:10:10 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:10:10 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding numbers References: <1066864416.79925.21994.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002001c39bf4$c6bff420$17e76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 83612 Robert wrote: >Lets think about the Colonial US. >Assume, reasonably enough, that no purebloods emigrated. >A few may have done, but they weren't subject to the >same pressures as muggles. There's some confirmation (I think in QTTA) that this was so >Assume also that native american wizards didn't interact >much with the colonials. I think that that's a very big assumption. It's reasonable to assume that the native wizards would have had their own means of identifying wizard born, even if they were not at this point living as a separate society from the native muggles. Therefore, why _shouldn't_ immigrant muggle-borns have been brought into native wizardry, in the same way that immigrant muggle-borns in the UK have found their way to Hogwarts. There's also a very interesting corollary to this and that is that the political geography of _wizarding_ North America could be very different from that of _muggle_ North America. Certainly wizard Europe has differences from muggle Europe (I've noted references to Flanders, Sardinia, and Transylvania, for example, which aren't independent countries in our world). So it's quite conceivable that even though the ethnicity of American wizards is almost certainly (by now) far closer to the ethnicity of American muggles than when colonisation began, it may well be that when young muggle borns are inducted into the American WW, they find that the political boundaries have more closely reflected those of the pre-colonial period. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 19:15:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:15:54 -0000 Subject: VERY OT: PayPal FRAUD Warning Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83613 Warning, this is the biggest FRAUD scam on the internet right now. DO NOT RESPOND TO IT!!! If you get a very official looking message from PayPal (an on-line payment service) that takes you to an equally official looking PayPal webpage that asks you to enter your Credit Card information, DO NOT DO IT! THIS IS A FRAUD!!! You can NOT get to your genuine PayPal account settings without going to the main PayPal page, logging on using you username and password then proceeding to your Account Info page. There are several people running this scam right now, and I hate to see it because PayPal is an excellent, and very safe way to send money by email, or to use to purchase items on-line. My apologies to the group administrators and to the group for posting something so seriously off-topic, but the email and the webpage it directs you to look VERY official and it's very easy to be fool. Please do not fall for this scam. Forward, all fraudulent emails to - accessviolation at paypal.com bboy_mn From hlynn at kconline.com Sun Oct 26 19:57:59 2003 From: hlynn at kconline.com (shwanalynn) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:57:59 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83614 Laura again: ...this is a war we're talking about here. Are you arguing that there was *nothing* either Arthur or Molly could do to help the cause? I repeat, no one was safe while LV and his little friends were powerful. Getting involved in the fight against the force that threatened everyone's lives would have been the best way to make sure your kids grew up. Hickengruendler: I think it is also a question of connections, who is in the order, and who isn't. I am sure there are several wizards and witches who want to help, but don't know about the order... Now me, Shwanalynn: First of all, if they really weren't in the Order the first time, maybe it wasn't an issue of safety. Maybe the child suggestion was a matter of time, and the lack thereof. I don't know if I fall on either side of this fence, yet, though. I realize it had to have been a bit lower on Molly's list of things to do in a day; but really, if things are desperate, you can sometimes find ways of fitting a couple of desperate things in. And Arthur still went to work everyday, so I agree with the suggestions that he could have been undercover at the Ministry. Secondly, I don't remember exactly where it says Arthur and Molly definitely weren't in the Order the first time. Is this an inference based on Moody's picture and the fact that Molly and Arthur weren't in it? Am I forgetting something else? I just keep thinking about how quick and natural it was for Dumbledore to hand out tasks to Molly and Arthur at the end of GoF, and include them in the plan to get the Order active again. It really seemed like they were familiar with it. I think the toddler/baby consideration is a good one, but maybe that just kept Molly busy and less involved than Arthur. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Oct 26 19:59:39 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (Blair) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:59:39 -0000 Subject: A thought about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > This may have been touched on in the past but a thought crossed my > mind as I was reading the scene where the group leave the Whomping > Willow after the goings-on in the Shrieking Shack and Lupin begins to > transform as the moon comes out. > > This would, of course, have affected the plot line of the book, but > why didn't somebody pull out a wand and either use "Petrificus > Totalus" or "Stupefy" on Lupin to stop him? OK, it would have ruined > the next two books but it would seem to have been logical. Perhaps werewolves are resistant to magic. In OoP Umbridge and her cronies have a tough time trying to Stun Hagrid. When Harry and Ron ask about it, Hermione says that it must be the giant blood in him. If giants are somewhat shielded from magic, is it that much of a stretch to think werewolves would be too? Oryomai (Finally returning to posting after a long, hard battle with a computer virus and Yahoomort!) From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sun Oct 26 20:01:08 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:01:08 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Soph" > >Applying this to Hogwarts, well Harry and co have already passed the > ages that I received my sex education without a murmur about it. It > could be dealt with in 6th or 7th year but surely the Weasley twins > would have delighted in telling Ron and Harry what awaited them. Or > perhaps it is something that is dealt with at home? I can just > imagine Ron emerging from a room, face as red as his hair after a > that talk with his father. Or maybe one of his brothers talked to him > about it? > > ~ Sophie Jeff: Harry's most likely clueless unless prior to Hogwarts Dudley delighted in squicking him with all the details, and showed him any naughty magazines he managed to obtain. I'm sure that The Twins did offer to help him some. I can't imagine them *not* relishing the chance to pass on their "worldly advice" to their almost-brother. :) As for Ron, having 5 older brothers, and most likely having had to share a room with the Twins until Bill and Charlie moved out, he's bound to know about some things, either stuff they told him after lights out or things he saw them do. :) Jeff From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sun Oct 26 20:15:58 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:15:58 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83617 James Redmont asked: > I don't understand why this is up for debate. Harry gave the sock > to Lucius, therefore it was Lucius's sock when he gave it to Dobby. The debate arises over the definition of "give". If Harry had handed the sock to Lucius, who, graciously or not, accepted the sock, then handed it to Dobby, there would be no debate. What actually happens, though, is "[Harry] forced the smelly sock into Lucius Malfoy's hand.... Mr. Malfoy ripped the sock off the diary, threw it aside, then looked furiously from the ruined book to Harry." (CoS, p 337, US paperback) It is pretty apparent that at no point during this little interaction did Malfoy (or Harry or Dobby, for that matter) consider himself to be the owner of the sock. When Dobby catches it a moment later, the sock is still described as Harry's sock, not Lucius'. Nor did Lucius intentionally mean for Dobby to catch the sock. It was flung randomly (and though it's not stated, I bet Dobby make a spectacular diving catch to get that sock before it hit the ground, rather than just standing there). But Dobby is freed nonetheless. Now, you could simply accept this at face value and say, yes, Lucius had the sock and then Dobby did; therefore, Lucius gave the sock to Dobby. But that's no fun. The alternate theories that have been presented are 1a) Harry is actually related to the Malfoy's, and so Harry was capable of freeing Dobby directly, 1b) Dobby used to serve the Potters, and so Dobby still considers him his family, or 2) The "master gave clothes" action is verified at the discretion of the house elf himself, and Dobby chose the loosest possible definition for it, not caring about intention or possession time (whereas Winky had much stricter guidelines). -Corinth From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 26 20:42:06 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:42:06 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] We'll Never Ever Be Able To Guess The Sixth DADA Teacher References: Message-ID: <000b01c39c01$9f7d5f80$3c5baacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83618 Louis Badalament proposed that we won't be able to guess the next DADA teacher, and listed his reasons why. So. I'll bite. Because I think Snape will finally get his chance, next year. Rationale? Snape must continue to be Harry's teacher. I seriously doubt Harry made high enough on his O.W.L. in Potions to be acceptable to Snape for N.E.W.T. study. To be an Auror, Harry must continue with Potions, however. He can, if the Potions teacher isn't Snape. Auror study is not the survival-necessity that Occlumency was; so I doubt Dumbledore would "lean" on Snape to take Harry for N.E.W.T.-level potions study. Harry *easily* made N.E.W.T. level in DADA. He's something of a Hermione in that field. It is where his and Snape's skill sets interact, and their interaction as teacher/student in this class would further the unwilling understanding that JKR is building between the two. I suspect that Fudge may leave some of those Educational Decrees standing, possibly the one stipulating a Ministry selection when the headmaster cannot fill a vacancy. Dumbledore may opt to select Snape, to avoid a Ministry choice. If it was a risk to give it to Snape over the past 14 years, surely what Snape's been dealing with in recent months with Voldemort is worse; possibly enough to make those considerations less than the need to avoid Ministry interference at Hogwarts. Interesting list of DADA-teacher characteristics, though; let's see how Snape would plug into those. > 1) A DADA Teacher's Name Never Comes Up Before The Book He Or She > Comes In As A DADA Teacher. Okay, Snape would violate this one. But the completely unexpected nature of him showing up as DADA might have the same "left-field" effect. There's certainly been enough buildup that he's a DADA pro. > 2) Harry Always First Learns Or Is Exposed To His Current DADA > Teacher Shortly Before Arriving At Hogwarts The Year That Teacher > Starts Teaching This could easily be addressed in book 6. > 3) Snape Already Had His Fling At Defense Against The Dark Arts That one sub for Lupin? Hardly. And true, he's unpleasant there, too, but I think that had as much to do with the circumstances and situation as the class itself. > 4) The DADA Teacher Always Has A Big Secret That, If Exposed, > Would Spell Ruin For The Teacher. I think Snape probably fills this particular criterion nicely. > 5) The DADA Teacher Takes Center Stage At Hogwarts At Some Point Snape could fill this, too. He's close to Dumbledore, probably second in line behind McGonagall. > 6) The DADA Teacher Places Harry Potter In Real Peril At Least > Once, If Not More I can see Snape doing this too--whether only in Harry's perception, whether deliberately or not, it could so easily happen, given the stunning potential for miscommunication between them. > 7) NOBODY WANTS THE JOB!!! Snape does. > 7) The DADA Teachers Are Unable to Be Predicted Second #7. I think after being turned down for 14 years, Snape's appointment there is sufficiently unexpected to fill this one. > 8) The DADA Teacher Remains For Only One Year, And Then Leaves In > Some Spectacularly Dramatic Fashion Yeah, unfortunately. I've always thought Snape would bite it. I didn't want it to be until the very end, but he may well be put out of the way at the end of book 6, if he becomes DADA prof. ~Amanda From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Oct 26 21:06:40 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:06:40 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shwanalynn" wrote: > Secondly, I don't remember exactly where it says Arthur and Molly > definitely weren't in the Order the first time. Is this an inference > based on Moody's picture and the fact that Molly and Arthur weren't > in it? Am I forgetting something else? I just keep thinking about > how quick and natural it was for Dumbledore to hand out tasks to > Molly and Arthur at the end of GoF, and include them in the plan to > get the Order active again. It really seemed like they were familiar > with it. I think the toddler/baby consideration is a good one, but > maybe that just kept Molly busy and less involved than Arthur. Jen: Lupin tells Molly: "...I can't promise no one's going to get hurt, nobody can promise that, but we're much better off than we were last time, you weren't in the Order then, you don't understand..." (OOTP, US, chap. 9, p. 177). So we know Molly definitely wasn't in the Order and I'm assuming Lupin is referring to Arthur too, or Molly *would* understand the risks. I suspect since Arthur was in the Ministry, and perhaps an unknown quantity to Dumbledore, that's why he wasn't in the Order the first time around. After all, we know this from the time of the First war: "...You're scared for yourself, and your family, and your friends. Every week, news comes of more deaths, more disappearnaces, more torturing...The Ministry of Magic's in disarray, they don't know what to do, they're trying to keep everything hidden from the Muggles, but meanwhile Muggles are dying too." (Sirius in GOF, US, chap. 27, p. 527). Arthur working in the Ministry amidst of all this confusion might not have been viewed as an asset to the Order at the time. I do think this comment by Lupin is a little patronizing--no one escaped the terror of the First War, according to all accounts--and his words were an attempt to reassure Molly more than anything else. But it *is* interesting how Dumbledore trusts the Weasley's to help in GOF, as if they were already involved in the Order. My theory is DD recruited them to help safe-guard Harry once Harry and Ron became friends. Then when Voldemort returned, DD feels safe including the Weasley's because of trust established and the Weasley's commitment and love for Harry. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 23:36:37 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:36:37 -0000 Subject: Could Lupin come back? Will Harry want to come back? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: There is a terrible irony in this situation, that Lupin is > working tirelessly to protect a society that wouldn't shed a tear if he died. So, I wonder, who is the most terrible monster in Harry's world? Is it Voldemort, or the society which he seeks to dominate? Why is Lupin so willing to fight one monster, but willing to just accept the other? > > What is the key difference between the two monsters that makes it > acceptable for Lupin to resign from his position, but makes it > unacceptable for Harry to run away from Hogwarts? They are both > dangerous to their friends. Why should Harry come back to Hogwarts, but not Lupin? > Laura: A few thoughts: LV is dangerous to *everyone* who opposes him. Harry may be at the top of his list but that doesn't mean others aren't endangered as well. The threat Harry poses to others is an indirect one-he's dangerous because he has an extremely dangerous enemy, not because of anything inherent about him. If LV were gone or if LV decided that the prophecy referred to someone else after all, Harry would no longer present a danger to anyone (well, you know what I mean-it would be good if they boy would chill a bit). Remus, on the other hand, is a danger to everyone around him but only for a brief period each month and only if he doesn't take his potion. There's some ambiguity about whether there's a cure for lycanthropy, but if there is, Remus hasn't gotten it. He's dangerous in a physical way, in the sense of being infectious, during the full moon. YOu might argue that Remus is less dangerous to his friends than to others because they know what to expect from him. Many post have suggested that there is fundamentally no difference between the two monsters you posit, greatlit. LV can come to power because there are powerful forces in the WW who are content to let that happen. So in other words, LV is a dramatic emblem of the ills of the WW-its pureblood fixation, its seekers after power for the sake of power, its contempt for muggles and magical non-humans and so forth. In fighting one you fight the other; LV is just the more urgent problem. What are Remus's choices? He can give in to his lycanthropy and live as a werewolf, either as a loner or with the baddies. Or he can do what he can to bring about change in his society so that he can live as full a life as possible given his condition. Remus has made the choice to have hope rather than give in to despair and bitterness. For that reason he chooses to fight for the survival of the society he knows, with its faults and prejudices. The bad guys have it easy-they can win by killing off their opponents. It's the side of morality, compassion and mutual respect that has a real battle to fight, because it has to win over one person at a time. Laura, who would love to see Remus back teaching at Hogwarts From lmbolland at earthlink.net Sun Oct 26 23:39:25 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:39:25 -0000 Subject: We'll Never Ever Be Able To Guess The Sixth DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: <000b01c39c01$9f7d5f80$3c5baacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83621 Louis, would you consider writing this in "article" form for the HP Lexicon? I read that he is seeking article authors and this one is very thought provoking. Your theories are VERY well thought out and well reasoned, particularly these points: (all quoted from Louis) >1) A DADA Teacher's Name Never Comes Up Before The Book He Or She >Comes In As A DADA Teacher. >2) Harry Always First Learns Or Is Exposed To His Current DADA >Teacher Shortly Before Arriving At Hogwarts The Year That Teacher >Starts Teaching >4) The DADA Teacher Always Has A Big Secret That, If Exposed, >Would Spell Ruin For The Teacher. >5) The DADA Teacher Takes Center Stage At Hogwarts At Some Point >6) The DADA Teacher Places Harry Potter In Real Peril At Least >Once, If Not More >7) NOBODY WANTS THE JOB!!! >8) The DADA Teacher Remains For Only One Year, And Then Leaves In >Some Spectacularly Dramatic Fashion >7) The DADA Teachers Are Unable to Be Predicted >I believe we should approach this not so much in terms >of what we already know, what's already been done, but rather in >terms of, "Where have we *not* gone?" And this is going to be >hard, because we know so very little about Book 6. Not that your snape reasoning wasn't excellent, it was, and I agree that, according to the previous "truths" Snape doesn't fit the mold for the next DADA teacher. Isn't it amazing how very complex JKR has made these stories and how she is both predictable and unpredictable? Lauri From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 23:40:27 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:40:27 -0000 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83622 I think you all may be missing a point. The question isn't why Arthur and Molly weren't in the OOP last time around. The question is, why would they be? We're talking about a young couple of absolutely no distinction that we're aware of. Unlike the Potters and the other Marauders, they were not recent Hogwarts graduates. There's no reason to believe that they were in contact with Dumbledore. The wizarding world must be filled with good people who would have been willing to fight Voldemort, and yet the picture that Moody shows Harry contains maybe 30 people. Why should the Weasleys have been in it? So what we should be asking is what changed between then and now? Jen wrote: > But it *is* interesting how Dumbledore trusts the Weasley's to help > in GOF, as if they were already involved in the Order. My theory is > DD recruited them to help safe-guard Harry once Harry and Ron became > friends. Then when Voldemort returned, DD feels safe including the > Weasley's because of trust established and the Weasley's commitment > and love for Harry. I agree that Harry's friendship with Ron and the Weasley's adoption of him brought them to Dumbledore's attention, although I think it might be more accurate to say that the Weasleys recruited themselves as Harry's protectors without Dumbledore's interference. It might also be worth noting that in the years between Voldemort's fall, Arthur Weasley distinguished himself as a lover of Muggles, so much so that he drafted a law for their protection that drew upon him the ire of Lucius Malfoy, one of Voldemort's chief supporters. This might also have helped bring to Weasleys to Dumbledore's attention, but I suspect the main reason is that, having adopted Harry, they simply wouldn't accept being left out. Of course, we Trimaran folk know that during the first LV war, Arthur Weasley was a little too busy being under the Imperius curse to be a member of the order. For that matter, he was already fighting Voldemort in his own way, because as we all know, Arthur Weasley used to be an Auror, right? :-) Abigail From oiboyz at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 17:51:34 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:51:34 -0000 Subject: Albus Percival Brian Wulfric Dumbldore In-Reply-To: <008b01c39b5d$a022b9c0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83623 ---"Mary Jo Neyer" wrote: > So in DD's personal names we see the Roman, Welsh, French, Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon cultures of the U.K. all in a type of representation. > Great post, Mary Jo! I wonder if JKR picked the names with the intention of representing the different cultures. I loved the part in OotP when Dumbledore gives his full name. "Brian" is my favorite because it's such a nice-sounding, approachable name-- not something Latin and remote. Percival makes me think of Percival Blakeney, the hero of Baroness Orczy's "Scarlet Pimpernel" series. Sir Percy was the leader of a league of Englishmen who ran daring missions into revolutionary France to save innocent aristocrats from the guillotine. Dunno if JKR had that in mind at all, but in any case it's a name that suggests both heroic bravery and pure goodness. From oiboyz at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 18:32:42 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:32:42 -0000 Subject: We'll Never Ever Be Able To Guess The Sixth DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: >With the DADA > professors, I believe we should approach this not so much in terms > of what we already know, what's already been done, but rather in > terms of, "Where have we *not* gone?" And this is going to be > hard, because we know so very little about Book 6. Great post, Louis-- that summed up the previous five DADA teachers very nicely. :) JKR has definitely been following a certain set pattern in each book. I expect that in Book 6, the DADA prof will be another complete stranger to us. But I'll bet that JKR will then break her own rules in Book 7. Louis Badalament again: > 3) Snape Already Had His Fling At Defense Against The Dark Arts > It was in Book Three, remember? (snip) >On one hand, I'm absolutely > certain that Rowling will reveal still more about Snape's character > in future books, it won't be in Defense Against The Dark Arts. > DADA revels nothing new about his character. I know it's the World's Most Obvious Theory, but I believe that Snape *is* getting the DADA post in Book 7. And I wouldn't say that his one turn as substitute teacher in PoA was a fair look at what he'd be like. He spent that entire class trying to undermine Lupin-- first by criticizing his teaching ability, then by making everyone learn how to recognize werewolves. Obviously his dislike of Lupin was amplified by the fact that Lupin got the job he wanted so much. If the DADA post were given to Snape, he wouldn't have that particular chip on his shoulder any more. He'd be free to focus on training the student in a subject they desperately need to learn. No doubt he'd still be an unfair and harsh teacher. But from Harry's point of view, there would be one important difference. Potions has always been Harry's worst subject (and he wasn't any great shakes at Occlumency either), but DADA is something he can do. If Snape taught DADA, Harry might well be the best student in his class. That would be bound to affect the dynamic between them; I for one would love to see it. (I'd also love to see the Slytherins and Gryffindors take DADA together, taught by Snape. The Gryffindors in Harry's year have all been sharpening their skills in DA meetings, while the Slytherins presumably made no progress at all in fifth year. Think of how it would rot Snape's socks if his own house was consistently shown up in his class!) --oiboyz From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 20:08:17 2003 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:08:17 -0000 Subject: How does Snape get away with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83625 SnapesRaven alias FinduilasMyDarkDreamer wrote: > > > I wonder who it is Kreacher called his 'mistress'. Could it be > > Narcissa Malfoy, Sirius's relative and thus also part of the > family Kreacher has to serve? What do you think? > > > > > Talisman wrote: > > Kreature is definitely talking to Mistress Narcissa, the only family > member he still respects. (OoP 830) > > Alas, the Sirius sell-out was supposed to happen. But, that's where > Kreature's trouble-making ends. If he doesn't like it, he can take > the Aunt Elladora retirement plan. > > Because Narcissa loves Snape. So, it doesn't matter what else > Kreature wants to divulge, she'll make him keep his nasty mouth > shut. I suspect she can be quite efficient. > > And, she'll never tell. And me:- When I read that part in the story, I automatically assumed that Kreacher's Mistress was Bellatrix Lestrange. I agree that the other possibility is that his Mistress is Narcissa Malfoy, but if it was referring to the Malfoy's, then wouldn't we expect one of those flyaway hints from Draco (dogging, et all). And surely Kreacher would think enough of Lucius to respect him, as he's in the family by marriage, so wouldn't that mean that he would have a master too? This also applies to Draco, more so than Lucius as he is a blood relative to the Blacks. Also, I'm not so sure that Lucius would be so loyal to Voldy. Sure, he acts loyal, but he also acts loyal to Fudge, and probably a whole load of other high up people besides. I doubt Lucius (isn't he one of those who run away when Barty C. Jr raises the dark mark?) is one of Voldy's most faithful. I think that the timing is right so that Bellatrix is out of Az, but I'm not sure, don't have my canon with me. I very much doubt a Narcissa/Snape SHIP is plausible. I'm not saying it won't happen (or hasn't happened), I'm just thinking that it won't. *hmm.. I come on here to see if anyone has any plausible answers to my quieries, and all I get is a lot more questions floating about in the jumble inside my head...* ...evil_sushi From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 26 20:11:40 2003 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:11:40 -0000 Subject: Possible contact with MWPP through Marauders' Map???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83626 ... I've found my canon:) Also, I'm thinking that Harry should use the map more though, as it could have gotten him out of a lot of sticky situations evil_sushi From mikael.raaterova at bredband.net Sun Oct 26 22:00:22 2003 From: mikael.raaterova at bredband.net (Mikael Raaterova) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:00:22 +0100 Subject: Wizarding population indeterminable (WAS Re: wizarding numbers) Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031026223411.02788910@pop.bredband.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83627 Ffred said, in reply to me: > >Interestingly enough, the fraction of muggle-borns would put a cap on > >maximum theoretical attendance. We know that 25 % of the wizarding > >population is muggle-born. But how big a fraction of Hogwarts students is > >muggle-born? Erring on the side of caution, I'd say it's maximally 31%, > >probably less. > >I think this statement ought to be the other way round - JKR's comment was >that 25% of the Hogwarts population were muggle born. That's what I get for trusting second-hand sources... Seriously, that makes my analysis pointless. If it had been 25 percent of the wizarding population, it would have been possible to calculate the wizarding population by knowing (a) the number of muggle-borns at Hogwarts (assuming that all muggle-born 11-to-17-year-olds attend Hogwarts) and (b) the fraction of muggle-born wizards that are 11 to 17 years old. Now, that route is blocked. Left only with the number of students at Hogwarts and the variability of the factors relevant to calculating the population, I resign myself to conclusion that the wizarding population can be anything between 10 000 and 200 000... / Mikael From DMCourt11 at cs.com Mon Oct 27 01:17:35 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:17:35 -0000 Subject: We'll Never Ever Be Able To Guess The Sixth DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: <000b01c39c01$9f7d5f80$3c5baacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Louis Badalament proposed that we won't be able to guess the next DADA > teacher, and listed his reasons why. > > So. I'll bite. Because I think Snape will finally get his chance, next year. > > Rationale? Snape must continue to be Harry's teacher. > > I seriously doubt Harry made high enough on his O.W.L. in Potions to be > acceptable to Snape for N.E.W.T. study. To be an Auror, Harry must continue > with Potions, however. He can, if the Potions teacher isn't Snape. Auror > study is not the survival-necessity that Occlumency was; so I doubt > Dumbledore would "lean" on Snape to take Harry for N.E.W.T.-level potions > study. > > Harry *easily* made N.E.W.T. level in DADA. He's something of a Hermione in > that field. It is where his and Snape's skill sets interact, and their > interaction as teacher/student in this class would further the unwilling > understanding that JKR is building between the two. Donna: Reading your post gave me a wonderful thought. What if *Harry* becomes the new DADA teacher, with Snape as his advisor? I know it sounds unlikely, but hear me out. I agree with those who have said that Snape is too vital as Potions Master to switch to the DADA job. Also, there's no way he could fill both positions, even for one year. However, if Dumbledore appoints Snape, but because of his potions classes, Harry does all or most (first through fifth years) of the actual teaching, it could work out. Snape and Harry would meet at the end of summer and go over the textbooks for each year. Snape would introduce Harry to the concept of lesson planning. For the rest of the year they would be meeting at least once a week to go over the past weeks lessons and to go over what Harry will teach each class the following week. If Harry only takes fifth years and below, maybe Snape could handle sixth and seventh years if there are a smaller number of students in advanced classes. You've said that Harry has already reached NEWT levels in DADA; his life experience qualifies him. Also in OOP he's shown a real aptitude for teaching. There is a big problem with time, I know. Harry still has to take other classes. However, since not everyone takes Potions after fifth year, for example, do sixth and seventh years take a varied number of classes, depending on what career they want? There seems to be some specialization coming in. Neville will no doubt move into advanced Herbology, but students who do not need this for their careers wouldn't bother taking it. In OOP, McGonagall tells Harry aurors need to take a minimum of five NEWTS (p. 662, US ed). She, for one, would be willing to take Harry in a private tutorial, even on the weekend, to free up time for him to teach. Aside from Snape, I don't think his other teachers would need too much persuading from Dumbledore. As long as Harry passes his NEWTS in seventh year, the Ministry wouldn't have too much say on how he prepared for them, even under normal circumstances. And the circumstances are far from normal. The interference of the MOM at Hogwarts in OOP, those Educational Decrees, Umbridge's actions, the way this becomes known in the WW toward the end of the book, capped by the very public appearance of Voldemort after Fudge had been ridiculing Harry and Dumbledore for close to a year: the wizarding government has been very seriously embarassed. My strongest belief for the next book is that Dumbledore will be given carte blanche in the running of Hogwarts. If Fudge even retains his leadership, he wouldn't dare say boo to D. Even if the Ministry were foolish enough to butt in, I think things have reached the point where Dumbledore would very graciously tell them to bugger off. Getting back to Harry, I had written after OOP first came out that based on Harry's skill and obvious enjoyment teaching DADA, I would like to see him become a teacher after Hogwarts. I won't go over all the debates on this topic that have been posted. But: someone did post that JKR was asked if Harry was going to become a teacher *after* Hogwarts, and she said no. If Harry becomes a teacher while still a student, she hasn't lied, but has misdirected us once again. :) I won't go over the reasons Louis listed, but I will say that just because JKR has followed certain rules up to now, does not mean she can't break them in the next two books. Donna (standing tall, refusing the customary blindfold and last cigarette) From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Mon Oct 27 01:22:50 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:22:50 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dobby revisited References: Message-ID: <01df01c39c28$d6e850c0$65984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 83629 Kneasy wrote > A bit of devious thinking - that act that frees Dobby. The sock does > not belong to Malfoy; he does not even touch it, only the diary. But Malfoy *does* touch the sock in the book (not the movie). Page 248 Scholastic. "...Harry took off one of his shoes, pulled off his slimy, filthy sock, and stuffed the diary into it." etc. Then... "He caught up with them at the top of the stairs. "Mr Malfoy," he gasped, skidding to a halt, "I've got something for you." And he forced the smelly sock into Lucius Malfoys' hand." Then Malfoy throws the sock aside and a few lines down Dobby goes on to say... "Dobby has a sock," Dobby said in disbelief. "Master threw it and Dobby caught it, and Dobby - Dobby is free." There you go... Nox From o_caipora at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 01:32:03 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:32:03 -0000 Subject: wizarding numbers In-Reply-To: <000f01c39b25$7dd656c0$17e76151@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83630 "manawydan" [Ffred] wrote: > There seems to be a strong element running through canon > that the money supply is in the hands of Gringott and > the goblins - they employ wizards as curse breakers to get > access to hoards, and coins are valid by virtue of > having a maker's mark on them. It might not only be the *Wizarding* currency supply that is under control of the Goblins. The Great Depression was prolonged by Herbert Hoover's unwillingness to abandon the gold standard. He made his fortune as an international mining engineer. He specialized in finding sites for gold mines. He translated from the Latin the book _De re metallica_ by Georg Agricola, which at its publication in 1556 was the finest book on mining technology, and continued to be an important reference for centuries. Agricola also wrote an apparently entirely serious book on the gnomes or goblins of mines. [L. Sprague de Camp discusses this in his "The Ancient Engineers" but I can't find an online reference]. Those familiar with conspiracy theory can see the connection: Young mining engineer finds medieval Latin text on mining - and another by same author with arcane knowledge of Goblins; enters into contact with Goblins and obtains locations of hidden gold deposits in exchange for a promise to be redeemed in the future; becomes rich and powerful; and his promise is called in and he is forced to maintain gold as currency. Yes, it's an old, sad story. More seriously, however: > . . . the > Ministry's got to have some other way of paying its employees. We saw fairy gold at the Quiddich World Cup, and Bagman paid off Fred and George's bet with it. It was created by magic, and vanished in a day. I think we can safely take that as Rowling's view of money made by magic. The WW's economy is a puzzle, but some things are absolutely clear. There are rich and poor, and "poor" is a real "poor": Ron has hand-me- down clothes, and dress robes with lace cuffs, which sounds dreadful even for boys used to running around in dresses - sorry, I meant robes. There's absolute want in the Weasley family, not "smaller mansion than the neighbor's" want. Books and robes and wands cost money. If money could be made with a wave of the wand, why would anyone lack it, and why would anyone accept it in exchange for products? Catlady wrote: > > Which leads me to wonder how > > many people are needed for a professional Quidditch team --- seven > > starting players and how many reserves? One or more coaches? [. . .] > > Talent scouts, ticket sellers, > > groundskeepers, ushers, food and souvenir vendors [. . .] > > -- how many stadia > > are there? (COuld there be only one, gov't-owned, stadium, so > > that no two matches could take place at the same time?) In my city, there are a half dozen to a dozen professional soccer teams (most people can name them all). Some have their own stadiums, one of which is the largest in town. There's also a municipal stadium. Granted, it's one of the largest of cities. But not all that long ago a baseball team was not that expensive a proposition. When Babe Ruth was asked about his salary being higher that President Hoover's [you knew he'd turn up again], Ruth answered "I had a better year than he did." How many of the Yankees starting lineup made more than George Bush this year? The costs of Quiddich may be closer to those of Babe Ruth era baseball than modern American pro football. We're never told that salaries are bloated. Than many boys at Hogwarts aspire to be professional Quiddich players tells us more about boys than it does about salaries. - Caipora From cparnell at bigpond.net.au Mon Oct 27 01:45:31 2003 From: cparnell at bigpond.net.au (Chris Parnell) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:45:31 +1100 Subject: Why Arthur & Molly were not in the Order the first time around In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0HNE001N87JYTJ@mta07ps.email.bigpond.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83631 I think Arthur and Molly either said "Pass" or were passed over. They had young children, which represent a risk. chris -----Original Message----- From: abigailnus [mailto:abigailnus at yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 10:40 AM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com why Arthur and Molly weren't in the OOP last time around. The question is, why would they be? Arthur Weasley used to be an Auror, right? :-) Abigail From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 02:07:45 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:07:45 -0000 Subject: First prediction's happened, third possible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Paul Smith" wrote: > > If Harry had the power to defeat his opponent (especially in war), > then he has already done it. Voldemort was comprehensively defeated > at Godric's Hollow, and it took him 14 years and the help of a > servant to be able to reply. > > The fact that one of them has to die is trickier, but Voldemort was > *hit* by an Avada Kedavra, and so in theory did die. His spirit left > his body as in death (I wonder what happened to that original body), > but his spirit, through whatever spell or transformation Voldemort > had managed, stayed in this world, rather than going on to the next. > Sue B: What a great idea! I have been thinking that this prophecy *had* to have a loophole somewhere, because I can't believe that JKR is going to force Harry to become a murderer, however justified. Nor do I think LV is going to win in the end. So there has to be a loophole (not sure how one would reveal that unless DD suddenly leaps up and says, "Of course! How could I have been so stupid?" which is also not impossible, given that Gandalf, whom he most resembles, spent ages trying to open that door in Moria when there was a simple password). So quite probably LV will end up doing it to himself, somehow, or perhaps Peter will do it (Wormtongue, rather than the Gollum we've all been considering him). From o_caipora at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 02:34:41 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:34:41 -0000 Subject: Wizarding numbers: 24 000 In-Reply-To: <022001c39b1b$f7e443a0$749c87d9@robertft56e9wi> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83633 "Robert Shaw" wrote: > Consistency require that either a considerable number of wizards > aren't Hogwarts educated, or that much of the support work is > done by non-wizards. I think you place too high a value on consistency. Even the four Gospels aren't consistent. I'm making a case for inconsistency. We know less than Rowling tells us, because her [explicit] declarations of numbers are incompatible with the [implicit] population needed to support the infrastructure described. We've got to give up one or the other. Since she's likely to keep piling on the infrastructure and implicity the number of inhabitants of the WW, my bet is that by the end of Book 7 only a number closer to 100,000 than to 20,000 will fit. Robert wrote: > >> However we don't know what contribution is made to wizarding > >> society by non-wizards. > > Which could be done by muggles. A charm can make the maintenance > workers overlook the platform number and other oddities. There are Wizard bus conducters, tavern keepers, store keepers, and even traders in stolen goods. Why not platform sweepers? Gilderoy Lockhart showed us the power of memory charms, they seem rather like the morning-after pill: reasonable in an emergency but not something to make a habit of. Whatever the terms of the Muggle Protection Act, I'm don't see how it could permit tricking Muggles out of free labor by keeping them in a state of habitual delusion. > Maybe, depending on how magic works. > If it responds to intent, the same cloak that makes you invisible > to the human eye will also make you invisible to video cameras, > and no new charms will be needed. If the world responded to intent, Dumbledore would not have had to apologize to Harry at the end of OotP. Seriously, one of the constant themes in tales of magic is that it responds not to intent, but to literal words. Wishes from genies or demons, the Monkey's Paw, the Sorcerer's Apprentice. In scores of classic fairy tales, mortals get not what they want but what they ask for. Clarke's Law says that, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Magic suffers some of the same limits as technology. Turn on that darn paper clip that comes with Microsoft Office if you'd like to see technology that responds to intent. > > It's at least a dozen people, assuming they all work several tasks. > > And that's for a train that runs twice a year. > > Trick muggles into doing all the manual labour and you're left > with a handful of desk jobs, which might take two people a > week, spread over the year. I respectfully submit that you can't even keep a medium-size model train setup running with that little effort. Where Rowling has shown us the innards of the WW, manual labor (ticket taking, bus driving, etc) has been performed by wizards. It seems reasonable to assume that what we haven't been shown runs along the same lines at what we have been shown. > > The section of track through Hogsmead is slightly more problematic > but, given how little it's used, a single person in Hogsmead can > probably inspect the track every few months, and renew the > various self-maintenance spells. > > Depending on > > your recipe, several to half-a-dozen kinds of seafood go into > > bouillabaisse, and no amount of analysis will permit a reconstuction > > of what "the Bouillabaisse" looks like swimming in the sea. > > But it will let you determine all the creatures from which the soup > was made, which is enough. My point, which I failed to state clearly enough, is that you can't get a *single* creature from it; it's inconsistent. It seemed like a good metaphor for how Rowling constructed her world. Robert also said: > Which doesn't stop coherent rules from emerging. > > Pratchett didn't originally have any street plan in mind for > Ankh-Morpork, he just used names at random, but it proved > possible to construct a street plan which fitted all the references. > > It's also possible that Rowling does have a consistent underlying > picture, as part of the background notes she has occasionally > referred to, but that Harry is not the kind of person who would > notice it. On the other hand, Barsoom is unmappable and quite impossible, and Oz had both bacon and talking pigs. I was unaware that an Ankh-Morpork map had been drawn - thank you. But because some authors have managed to invent consistently doesn't mean Rowling has pulled it off. > I know towns that size [25,000] with most of those services. > Allowing for the effects of magic, I certainly can envision the > town having all of them. After two more books stuffed with details, I think you'll need to raise that. I continue to think that U.K. gypsies, rather than a small town, are the best real-world equivalent. > The quidditch teams might only be the equivalent in skill, and pay, > of some third division straggler, but that's still a lot better than > the average amateur. People would still pay to watch them. I believe you're right on that. A lot of the WW seems many decades behind the times, and not long ago professional sports salaries and other costs were nowhere near today's stratospheric levels. Robert also said: > Also, I doubt that all goblins are bankers, and we have no idea > of their total numbers. Their other services could go a long way > to making up for low wizard numbers. It's clear that the non-human magical people will play an important role in the coming war. We'll certainly get a better idea of their relative strength in the next books. - Caipora From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Mon Oct 27 02:58:36 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:58:36 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: First prediction's happened, third possible? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031027155413.0213d250@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83634 At 02:07 27/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Sue B wrote: > >What a great idea! I have been thinking that this prophecy *had* to >have a loophole somewhere, because I can't believe that JKR is going >to force Harry to become a murderer, however justified. Nor do I >think LV is going to win in the end. So there has to be a loophole >(not sure how one would reveal that unless DD suddenly leaps up and >says, "Of course! How could I have been so stupid?" which is also not >impossible, given that Gandalf, whom he most resembles, spent ages >trying to open that door in Moria when there was a simple password). >So quite probably LV will end up doing it to himself, somehow, or >perhaps Peter will do it (Wormtongue, rather than the Gollum >we've all been considering him). Tanya here. This is an interesting idea. I am going to post a segment of a longer post that I suggested previously in this group. It was said in jest, but who knows. 'Tongue in cheek here, not a serious suggestion. It could be that LV so enraged about feeling love and discovering he now has a life debt to Harry, he offs himself.' Tanya From catlady at wicca.net Mon Oct 27 04:04:06 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:04:06 -0000 Subject: SnitchJames/ExpectedOfHarry/Mandrake/HermioneKnows?/RoomOfequire/Anagram/Econ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83635 Furkin Blue Eyes wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83459 : << It is however, canon that James was a seeker. He is shown as playing a snitch that he "nicked" from the quidditch ball trunk and even sketched a snitch on his test before tracing lily's initials. >> There is more than one possible reason for James's attachment to the Golden Snitch. First, as you said, he might be the Seeker on his team. Then JKR might have changed her mind since she gave the interview that said he was Chaser, or she might have come down with movie contamination. The first occured when she put in OoP that the Bones who were killed by Voldemort were Susan's uncle, aunt-by- marriage, and little first cousins, when she had long ago said in an interview that they were Susan's grandparents. The second occurred when Percy's prefect badge in PS/SS was silver, and Ron's red and gold prefect badge in OoP was described as looking like Percy's. Second, we know that Bowman Wright invented the Golden Snitch, lived in Godric's Hollow, and made a bit of money from his invention, and we know that James and Lily hid in Godric's Hollow, and James inherited a good bit of money. From this, various people have speculated that the Potters are descended from Bowman Wright and he is the origin of their inherited wealth. This led some listie to speculate that bully!James was playing with a Golden Snitch to remind his fellow students of his Snitch-derived wealth. Third -- I've seen this in fanfic, but don't recall ever seeing it on list -- LILY might have been the star Seeker from whom Harry inherited his talent. That would explain James doodling a Golden Snitch around her inititals, and using a Golden Snitch to try to attract her attention. Gretchen Bakies wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83460 : << Dumbledore said : "You have shown bravery beyond anything I could have expected of you tonight, Harry. You have shown bravery equal to those who died fighting Voldemort at the height of his powers. You have shouldered a grown wizard's burden and found yourself equal to it -- **and you have now given us all we have a right to expect.**" (** my emphasis). Now I know in OOP Dumbledore said he didn't want to tell Harry about the Prophesy after all he'd gone through that night, but isn't that going a bit far when clearly Dumbledore *does* expect more from Harry in the fight against Voldemort.? >> Catlady says: Dumbledore DOES expect more from Harry, but he is secretly acknowledging that he expects more from Harry than he has a right to ask. Caipora wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83493 : << This thread started off on the topic of ethics. The treatment of the mandrakes, who are anthropormorphized and then pur?ed, is one of the ethically most troubling incidents in the books. >> Presumably the mandrakes, being plants, have only behaviors, not minds nor feelings behind those behaviors, and therefore the dismembering and crushing of mandrakes is to me less ethically troubling than all that practising Transfiguration on animals. I eat meat, so I have no right to complain that Transfiguring an animal into an inanimate object is *killing* the animal, but these failed attempts that result in partial Transfiguration, or all the mouse vanished except its tail ... that must *hurt*! Caipora wrote: << One of the most puzzling aspects of romance if not sex in Rowling is Hermione's cool explanations of how girls behave in OotP. Her demeanor has an air of "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" but her only romantic relationship we know of is with Viktor, and that seem largely epistolary. How does she know so well how other girls behave? She's given to spells, but in a different sense than other girls. So how does she know? >> >From books (also Thren's explanation in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83504 that Hermione kept quiet and listened while the other girls were talking girl-talk could also be true --- Hermione may have turned to books to try to understand the nonsense that she was overhearing). Laura strikethe pose wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83523 : << in the room of requirement was 'a large, cracked foe-glass that Harry was sure had hung, the previous year, in the fake Moody's office' (uk edition p346) Why would't it have been a nice shiny unbroken foe-glass? And why the connection with fake Moody? >> I think this is evidence for the theory that has been posted on list that the Room of Requirement doesn't actually creata things, merely draws in things that were already scatter around Hogwarts. So the DADA books in DA's RoR came from Madam Pince's library or someone professor's personal collection and the cushions on the floor came from a linen closet. I don't like that theory: if additional cleaning supplies were already in the castle, why didn't Filch go to the storeroom to get them instead of the RoR? There is a lot of *stuff* in Hogwarts Castle, but why would that include House Elf hangover remedies? Hermione Gallo wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83549 : << Did you or anyone else ever figure out the anagram I wrote? >> I couldn't even figure out which phrase, sentence, or paragraph WAS your anagram! Flattering Ffred Manawydan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83561 : << Also, of course, most sporting clubs run more than one team. So would a quidditch club run a first team, a reserve team, and one or more youth teams (under 11, under 13, under 16, and so on) to make sure there's a constant supply of new players coming through. >> I doubt that British and Irish pro Quidditch teams run youth teams because Hogwarts seems to take care of developing the future players. Caipora wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83630 : << We saw fairy gold at the Quiddich World Cup, and Bagman paid off Fred and George's bet with it. It was created by magic, and vanished in a day. I think we can safely take that as Rowling's view of money made by magic. >> I was thinking of some more difficult and long-lasting magic, such as squeezing carbon into diamonds, rather than simply conjuring up the coins as in that example. Perhaps, unbetweenst to Harry and thus to us, some of those MoM employees are steering near-earth asteroids away from hitting earth, a service for which Muggle governments have been paying wizarding governments since the 1908 Tunguska event warned them what could happen. Abigailnus wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83622 : << The question isn't why Arthur and Molly weren't in the OOP last time around. The question is, why would they be? We're talking about a young couple of absolutely no distinction that we're aware of. >> I'm not sure they were of **no** distinction whatever: wasn't Arthur Head Boy in his day? From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 04:58:05 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:58:05 -0000 Subject: We'll Never Ever Be Able To Guess The Sixth DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: <000b01c39c01$9f7d5f80$3c5baacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83636 > Louis Badalament proposed that we won't be able to guess the next DADA > teacher, and listed his reasons why. > Then Amanda did a terrific job with a counter-proposal for Snape as the next DADA teacher. I was going to make the same argument, but Amanda did a much better job than I could have done. But I would like to add some things to her argument. > So. I'll bite. Because I think Snape will finally get his chance, next year. > > Rationale? Snape must continue to be Harry's teacher. > Agreed. Harry must continue his studies in Potions for Aurorship. Snape would be completely in his rights to refuse to teach him. There is very little hope that Harry got Outstanding in his potions O.W.L. But Snape would have no reason to refuse to accept Harry into a N.E.W.T. level DADA class. Thus, the story will continue to enjoy the Snape/Harry dynamic that we know and love. Sadly, I think that the trend of DADA teachers only lasting one year will continue. I think poor Snapey will have some, possibly tragic, reason to discontinue teaching at Hogwarts after Year 6. So, with the WW critically short of anyone willing or able to assume the position in Year 7, I think Dumbledore himself will take on the job. 4) The DADA Teacher Always Has A Big Secret That, If Exposed, Would Spell Ruin For The Teacher. I think it is very likely that dear Snapey's fatal secret is his vampirism. Thanks to both Louis and Amanda for brilliant original posts. Constance Vigilance From abush at maine.rr.com Sun Oct 26 18:27:26 2003 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:27:26 -0000 Subject: NO sympathy for Dursleys (was RE: Speaking up for Petunia) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83637 Kylie responds: Your generosity to Petunia makes you a kinder, gentler sort than me... In GoF after Cedric is killed and Voldemort returns, and Harry is in the hospital wing, JKR tells us "Mrs. Weasley set the potion down on the bedside cabinet, bent down, and put her arms around Harry. He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a mother." How incredibly sad that, even if Petunia despised Lily, she could offer no physical comfort to a small child at any point in his life, even just out of respect for the fact that he is family, the grandchild of the people who gave her life and raised her. I have no sympathy for the so-called "plight" of the woman, being asked to raise her own nephew. Family comes with some responsibility, and children need love. kylie From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 01:05:44 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 01:05:44 -0000 Subject: Percy's reaction. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83638 I'm a little anxious to find out what Percy's reaction is to the fact that the person he idolizes (the Minister) now looks like a complete idiot after saying that he had been wrong the whole year, and that Voldemort had returned right under his nose. (and got into in the Ministry! gasp!) But, for the most part, I don't think he's going to go all 'evil'. Personally, I'm tired of the whole Percy-Is-A-Git thing. JKR has a way of making us start to really dislike a character, and then show us that they've really done nothing wrong, and slowly redeem themselves. For example, Snape. We hate him, don't we? But the funny thing is, throughout all the books, he hadn't done anything wrong. Sure he loved insulting students, and shooting out death-glares, but did he ever put Harry in mortal danger? It's pretty obvious that Snape is redeemable because he is on the right side. I think it's the same case with Percy. JKR is going to make him seem like such a stupid git, get the readers to absolutely hate him, and then make him do something heroic, like save his family. Percy didn't do anything that was against what was right. He was mislead, fed with lies, and he actually believed those lies, and impressed his opinions on his younger brother while walking out on his own family - but what will he do now that he finds he was wrong? IMHO Percy will probably die saving his family just when we (the readers) think we couldn't hate him more. Honestly, that would make me cry. *runs out of the room all teary- eyed* Any thoughts? Reactions? Incoherent obscenities? ----------nkittyhawk From lb140900 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 02:12:29 2003 From: lb140900 at yahoo.com (Louis Badalament) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:12:29 -0000 Subject: A Response To Lauri, And A Word On The DA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83639 Lauri, I would, of course, be delighted to submt this post in article form to Steve Vander Ark. What's the best way to approach him? Should I just e-mail him directly, or invite him to see this post first, here at Harry Potter For Grownups? How is this sort of thing generally done? Bear in mind that I'm completely flattered that you would think this piece of mine is worthy of such a resource as The Harry Potter Lexicon. Thank you so much! And yes, it is amazing how Rowling has made these stories both predictable and unpredictable. It's rather like that part she came up with in Book 5 about 'discordant notes in a familiar song,' or some such, (I'm paraphasing.) Looking back, though, I've always found it incredible that, after three years to theorize by ourselves, none of us was able to think up a woman like Dolores Umbridge. Speaking personally, I actually *was* betting that DADA Teacher #5 was going to be a servant to the Ministry of Magic, but I was sure she'd be something along the lines of a simple spy, quietly soaking up the goings-on around Hogwarts and blabbing all to Fudge. I would *never* have dreamt of anyone that went as far as Umbridge. I'd like to make a few further observation here about the Defense Against the Dark Arts in general, and then throw out some more theories of my own, if you all don't mind. In Book 1, what was taught at DADA wasn't worth mentioning. In Book 2, the students were treated to highly sensationalistic 'tall tales,' about Dark Arts Defense, rather like little tykes learning about how to be a cop from a Saturday-morning cop cartoon show. In Book 3, they learned how to deal with Dark animals. In Book 4, they were taught how to deal with human assailants. Book 5 focused primarly on denying the existence of Voldemort. Now, I'm taking a shot in the dark here, but I'm guessing that whoever wins the position in Book 6, he'll be a man who'll know things about Voldemort, personally, or Dark Lords generally. Now that the Ministry is done denying Voldemort, I feel it's quite likely Dumbledore will want to give the kids a bit more history on who they're up against. Also, I'd like to throw out a personal opinion about the DA. I don't think it'll be dissolved at all. Why, you ask? Draco Malfoy. Draco Malfoy, almost entirely. Let's look at the little prat, shall we? Here's a fellow who wants nothing more than to do everything, achieve everything that Potter has or can achieve, and outclass him all the while. I feel that he works towards this goal on both a conscious and unconscious level. Potter has a set of friends that shadow him almost everywhere? Why, so does young Mr. Malfoy... although his relationship with them lacks any depth or meaning, and they, themselves, aren't worth talking about. Potter's the Seeker on the Gryffindor team? Well, so's Draco, in the next book, and *he's* on the best broomstick on the market. Bear in mind, he is not *always* able to achieve this 'Malfoy doppleganger' state in every single aspect. I, for one, was completely surprised that affluent Mommy and Daddy Malfoy did not run out and buy Draco a personal Firebolt the moment he was conscious that Harry had one - I suppose that even the *Malfoys* have limits on how much that kid is spoiled. And, of course, there was absolutely *nothing* Draco could do about Harry being a Triwizard champion. But the pattern still continues, into Book 5. Where Harry has the respect and admiration of Gryffindor (generally), Malfoy has the Slytherins all singing his song. At the same time Harry is getting Cho Chang as a girlfriend, Malfoy picks up with Pansy Parkinson. Where Potter is involved in the DA, Malfoy enlisted into the Inquisitoral Squad, which exists, at least in part, to flush out the DA. It must've tickled him pink to have his first real 'one-up' on Harry when he was installed as Slytherin prefect. But now, at the end of Book 5, Draco's out for Harry's blood. Essentially, Harry robbed Draco forever of the ability to boast about his father, and the knowledge of that will eat at Draco's thoughts and personality all summer. The Inquisitoral Squad may have been disbanded, but Potter has a loyal group of friends in the DA. They're not simply a group of wannabes, some of them have seen 'active service,' and all of them overwhelmed him and turned him into a slug. He won't forget *that* in a hurry. No... if Potter's going to have a little club dedicated to FIGHTING the Dark Arts, I'm sure *he's* going to start a club of his own that EMBRACES the Dark Arts! Remember; Draco has NEVER been focused on just Harry, alone; he's got to obtrude upon everything and everyone Harry's *connected* with. Just look at how badly he's antagonized Hermione and Ron, especially, in large part just for being Harry's friends! Don't you think the little jerk's going to be any better to Harry's 'new' friends? The DA's going to need to stick together, especially, because Draco doesn't let go of a grudge, and he won't stand for Potter having the upper hand on him. He'd *love* to start up a club to undermine Headmaster Dumbledore the way Potter's little gang undermined Headmistress Umbridge. I think it'll be the perfect way to bring the Second War straight into the school. Anyway, this is some of the more wild, *unsubstantiated* suppositions on my part, but I hope you all at least had fun reading it. - Louis Badalament From melpethaven at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 02:48:50 2003 From: melpethaven at yahoo.com (melpethaven) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:48:50 -0000 Subject: JKR newest speech:HP themes in the books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83640 Well, I am going to try to post something one more time. I have dyslexia so if my grammar is not right and my spelling is incorrect and I have typhos, sorry eleves or whoever, I can't help it. ************ If JKR speeches are canon then here goes: Prince of Asturias Foundation Award Ceremony: Joanne Kathleen Rowling acceptance speech. (See TLC for website) Concord 2003, October ..." Nevertheless, I have always believed the Harry Potter books to be highly moral. I wanted to depict the ambiguities of a society where bigotry, cruelty, hypocrisy, and corruption are rife, the better to show how truly heroic it is, whatever your age, to fight a battle that can never be won. And I also wanted to reflect the fact that life can be difficult and confusing between the ages of eleven and seventeen, even when armed with a wand."...JKR 2003 IMO it looks like many of our discussions of the books are right on canon even if we though we were speculating. Any other opinions? Frodo's Mum (waiting to get flamed for even daring to try to post) From TanzGabu at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 03:14:42 2003 From: TanzGabu at hotmail.com (tanzgabu) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 03:14:42 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83641 "silver_owl_01" "> Were forgeting a little detail. In OotP Sirius says that almost all the pureblood wizard families are interconnected by marriage or > blood, the most fanatically racist more than any, given how few > choices there were available for marriage. Every pureblood is > probably related in one degree or another to every other. > > Given how inbred the purebloods must be, it's not too far fetched to assume that James could've been related to the Malfoys in some > degree, hence Dobby could justify himself about going to Harry." The one thing that makes me wonder about the whole Malfoy/Potter intermarriage thing, is when Sirius and Harry are looking at the Black genealogy. Sirius doesn't mention *anything* about a Potter being on the tapestry, which makes me wonder. If the purebloods are so interrelated, why are there no connections with the Potters? Maybe Sirius just chose not to mention it, but I tend to lean away from that because of Sirius going to live with the Potters. They might have been more like the Weasleys, who were shunned by the other pureblood families. They must not have been the kind of old wizarding family that the Blacks and the Malfoys were, hence them not having any marriages together that we've heard of. On that note, there were also speculations that it was the Potters' elf first. I can't figure out why the Potters would give him up to the Malfoys, of all people. Especially with no connections that we've been able to see so far. Sorry about the lack of structure.. I had a lot of random ideas at once. -tanzgabu From tiggersong at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 05:50:11 2003 From: tiggersong at yahoo.com (tiggersong) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 05:50:11 -0000 Subject: Petunia's knowledge? In-Reply-To: <3F95D3E1.6020705@subreality.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83642 Thren: > Also, how does someone in a Muggle household (especially > *Petunia's* household) get rid of newspapers that involve > moving pictures and news of a whole other world? >>> I don't know how the recycling thing happens where you are, but here it works this way. The common user (muggle me) puts her papers out at the curb. Then, a Big Truck comes down the street and the Recycling Guy gets my bag-fulla-paper and tosses it into the bin with everyone elses bag-fulla-paper. I don't think he ever even looks in. I could hide a *body* in there as long as it wasn't dripping. I guess I don't know how the paper gets processed at the recycling plant, but I've always assumed some sort of bigger bin gets filled by each truck's bin. Then it all goes somewhere to get shredded, watered down and turned back into paper. I wonder how long Petunia's been reading the Prophet. Or if she's taken out a subscription now that she knows that Lord Thingy is back in town... Stasia From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 07:41:30 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:41:30 -0000 Subject: First prediction's happened, third possible? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031027155413.0213d250@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: > At 02:07 27/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: > > >Sue B wrote: > > > >So quite probably LV will end up doing it to himself, somehow, or > >perhaps Peter will do it (Wormtongue, rather than the Gollum > >we've all been considering him). > > Tanya here. > > This is an interesting idea. I am going to post a segment of a longer post > that I suggested previously in this group. It was said in jest, but who knows. > > 'Tongue in cheek here, not a serious suggestion. It could be that LV so > enraged > about feeling love and discovering he now has a life debt to Harry, he > offs himself.' > > Tanya Sue B here: Um, I didn't actually mean LV would commit suicide, sorry if that was unclear (although, as you say, who knows? ;-D ). I just meant that he might get killed by overconfidence, perhaps along the lines of, "You can't kill me, there's a prophecy that says only Harry Potter can... Whaddya MEAN you're Neville Longbottom and you're in there too...? AARGH!" (Merry uses his sword of Westernesse...sorry, wrong novel). Sue, whose tongue is poking through the hole in her face.. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 27 07:42:11 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:42:11 -0000 Subject: Albus Percival Brian Wulfric Dumbldore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83644 Mary Jo wrote: > > So in DD's personal names we see the Roman, Welsh, French, > > Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon cultures of the U.K. all in a type of > > representation. oiboyz: > I wonder if JKR picked the names with the > intention of representing the different cultures. > Percival makes me think of Percival Blakeney, the hero of Baroness > Orczy's "Scarlet Pimpernel" series. Sir Percy was the leader of a > league of Englishmen who ran daring missions into revolutionary > France to save innocent aristocrats from the guillotine. Dunno if > JKR had that in mind at all, but in any case it's a name that > suggests both heroic bravery and pure goodness. It's only just made me realise that we have Percy Mk.1 and Percy Mk.2 in the books but somewhat different models? Geoff From furkin1712 at aol.com Sun Oct 26 23:20:14 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:20:14 EST Subject: Interviews, James - Seeker or Chaser? (was Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin) Message-ID: <158.2677cd17.2ccdb0ae@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83645 Taryn: > It seems hard to believe that QuickQuotes over at the > Leaky Cauldron would be hosting a fradulent interview. > For referece, the quotes are from an online chat at > Scholastic.com on October 16, 2000. ---------- It always seems hard to believe that interviews are fake. But it does happen, one actor (who shall remain nameless unless anyone cares to know for proof's sake) spread rumors about 2 movies he made with Orlando Bloom but later he said it was all a sham and all the interviews were just made up. Interviews are not hard to make up, and there are other interviews presumably by JKR in which she swears James is a Seeker. I'm just saying that we can't always trust what we read, if it's on TV that's different but not just a website. And why would a Chaser be playing with a Snitch? It makes no sense, besides, Chasers wouldn't necessarily be able to catch the Snitch, they aren't meant to have a Seeker's reflexes or they'd be Seeker's not Chasers now wouldn't they? Blue Eyes From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 08:01:40 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:01:40 -0000 Subject: Arthur as Head Boy (was: Catlady's Omnibus Post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83646 > Abigailnus wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83622 : > > << The question isn't why Arthur and Molly weren't in the OOP last > time around. The question is, why would they be? We're talking about > a young couple of absolutely no distinction that we're aware of. >> To which Catlady responded: > I'm not sure they were of **no** distinction whatever: wasn't Arthur > Head Boy in his day? Chapter and verse, please? I don't remember anyone mentioning that Arthur was Head Boy - Ron tells Harry about Bill the very first time they meet in PS/SS, but nothing about his father. For that matter, Molly never mentions anything about Arthur being Head Boy, and you'd think she'd use it as another way of getting the boys to behave if it were true. Plus, when she tells Lupin that Ron in the third prefect in the family, she doesn't mention anything about Arthur. Anyway, I don't think Arthur is the HB type - that's more Molly's group. I'm also not certain that having been HB would make Arthur close to Dumbledore. There's a HB every year, and as I said, by the time VWI was starting up, Arthur and Molly would have been out of school for a while. The fact that Arthur might have been HB wouldn't necessarily have made a great difference. Abigail From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 27 09:12:23 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:12:23 -0000 Subject: Interviews, James - Seeker or Chaser? (was Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: <158.2677cd17.2ccdb0ae@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, furkin1712 at a... wrote: > Taryn: > > It seems hard to believe that QuickQuotes over at the > > Leaky Cauldron would be hosting a fradulent interview. > > For referece, the quotes are from an online chat at > > Scholastic.com on October 16, 2000. > ---------- > > Blue Eyes wrote > It always seems hard to believe that interviews are fake. example> Interviews are not hard to > make up, and there are other interviews presumably by JKR in which > she swears James is a Seeker. I'm just saying that we can't always > trust what we read, if it's on TV that's different but not just a > website. > Pip!Squeak: But it's not just any website, Blue Eyes. It's an interview that was organised and run by JKR's American publishers. A website with a faked Scholastic interview/faked Scholastic address would find themselves being contacted by lawyers rather quickly. Further there is no need to argue that the interview is a fake, even if it contradicts your theory. It is canon in OOP that Ginny believes it is possible to play both the Seeker and the Chaser positions in her school Quidditch career. She's currently Gryffindor Seeker, but comments that she'd probably prefer being a Chaser. It's entirely possible that James played both Seeker and Chaser, depending on the way the team changed over the years he was playing. Blue Eyes: > And why would a Chaser be playing with a Snitch? It makes no > sense, besides, Chasers wouldn't necessarily be able to catch the > Snitch, they aren't meant to have a Seeker's reflexes or they'd be > Seeker's not Chasers now wouldn't they? No. Ginny has the reflexes to catch the Snitch - she does in a couple of matches in OOP. But she doesn't like the Seeker position (which is not a team position - you spend the entire match doing nothing but look for the Snitch). Further, Sirius asks James where he got the Snitch, and James says he nicked it. If James were his teams *Seeker* he would have no need to nick the Snitch. He could ask to borrow it for some extra practice. But if he's *not* the Seeker, he has no legitimate reason to have that Snitch, and would have to nick it rather than borrow it. So, given that the Seeker needs a small light build; it's entirely possible that James played Seeker in his first or second year (and Gryffindor won the cup, which is why TMTMNBM has him down as Gryffindor Seeker on the trophy. Then he got older, bigger, and a bit bored with looking for the Snitch all the time. Another good Seeker came along, and he switched to Chaser (and was superb, with all the girls swooning over him and Snape jealous of his success in not one, but *two* roles). And so in OOP flashback, he has to nick the Snitch (because he no longer has a legitimate reason to borrow it). But he plays with it to show that he *could* still be Seeker if he wanted, and remind girls that he was the Seeker when Gryffindor won the Cup. In fact, girls, James is so fantastic (in his dreams!), he's been both an amazing Seeker, and an amazing Chaser. He just can't understand why Lily Evans thinks he's a conceited git. Funny things, girls. ;-) Pip!Squeak From risako at nexusanime.com Mon Oct 27 09:51:21 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 05:51:21 -0400 Subject: Patriotism in the WW? Message-ID: <004201c39c6f$e06627c0$8a59d718@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 83648 There seems to be something of a lack of patriotism in the Wizarding World. The only example I've come across is Seamus' enthusiastic support of the Irish team at the Quidditch World Cup. There's some awareness that wizards living in other countries do some things differently, as in the trouble over Ali Bashir and his flying carpet, but I'm not seeing any overt pride in England, simply a sense of "some of our ways are not the same as some of theirs." The Ministry of Magic deals with the Muggle bureaucracy but seems to feel no particular loyalty to it, or to the Queen. We don't see the students singing God Save the Queen in the morning, but that may not be significant as there's a great deal that we don't see them doing. (Incidentally, would a real British boarding school have God Save the Queen sung? Growing up in the Canadian public school system, I remember O Canada being sung every morning at the start of the school day.) The Triwizard Tournament could have provided an opportunity for patriotism, but I'm not seeing any there either. Fleur makes it quite clear that things at Beauxbatons are not done the same way as they are at Hogwarts, but this seems to be more of a Beauxbatons-is-better-than-Hogwarts attitude rather than a more general France-is-better-than-England attitude (disclaimer: I don't think that patriotic people necessarily think their country is better than other countries, nor do I think that patriotism is a bad thing; I just can't think of a better way to phrase this). Things at Durmstrang are also different, but that's largely because of the school's emphasis on the Dark Arts. I get the impression that the differences among the three schools are due more to the personalities of their respective headmasters than to the countries they're in. Karkaroff is an unpleasant person and treats his students harshly, and it's possible that the school's policy towards the Dark Arts is largely due to his liking of them; Madame Maxime is a more lenient person who treats her students kindly; and Dumbledore is eccentric and runs an eccentric school. I would imagine that Hogwarts under Phineas Nigellus, or Hogwarts under the four founders, would have been a much different place than it is under Dumbledore. So it seems to me that the differences are headmaster/mistress-based and school-based rather than country-based. So, is there patriotism at all in the WW? Is an individual's first loyalty to his/her country as against other countries; does he see him/herself first as a subject or citizen of his/her country and then as a wizard/witch? It's possible that patriotism matters in the WW, at least somewhat; the example of Seamus suggests this. Or is he/she primarily loyal to the WW? The second possibility seems more likely to me because of the history of wizard persecution by Muggles. This could be another reason for pureblood wizards to dislike the presence of Muggle-born students at Hogwarts, since a Muggle-born might have been taught loyalty to England and certainly wouldn't have been taught loyalty to the Wizarding World. Perhaps someday we'll see a Muggle-born student struggling with this question. Of course, this doesn't explain Seamus; perhaps patriotism is an issue in some countries but not in others. If that's true, though, there goes my half-formed theory about Muggle-borns' possible patriotism being a reason for purebloods to distrust them. Am I just overthinking this? Ideas? thoughts? smacks with a wet noodle? Melissa, reflecting that the English language desperately needs a set of words to replace "he/she" and "him/her"! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 11:11:41 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 03:11:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Percy's reaction Message-ID: <20031027111141.46829.qmail@web40005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83649 27Oct03 nkittyhawk wrote: "Percy didn't do anything that was against what was right. He was mislead, fed with lies, and he actually believed those lies ...IMHO Percy will probably die saving his family just when we (the readers) think we couldn't hate him more." Paula now: Yes, I see it your way too. Percy is the type of person who is impressed with prestige, wants prestige, and curries the favor of those who have prestige. Hence, he'd naturally fall for the lies and hypocricy of stuffed shirts like Fudge and Crouch, Sr. He wants soooo badly to to big and important like these guys and would even be willing to ignore the fact that Big Shot Crouch couldn't even get his name right inspite of the fact that he's one of those red-headed Weasleys--what could have been more obvious? On the other hand, Percy's no dummy. He did outstanding work at Hogwarts, and was a Prefect (Headboy too?). So yes, I think all this is bound to hit Percy. I predict that he'll do an about face, realize that his family's really pretty neat, in spite of their "alternate" lifestyle in the unglamorous Burrow. Maybe he'll even start wearing a ponytail and earrings like his brother. But PLEASE, don't speak of killing him off! That would be just too heartbreaking. Paula "Griff" Gaon Please vote in my MagicalCreaturesPosterPoll: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/polls --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From diversity33 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 11:34:18 2003 From: diversity33 at hotmail.com (Kath Lane) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:34:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in the WW ) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83650 >From: "Soph" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No Sex, Please, We're British (was ethics in >the WW ) >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 15:58:49 -0000 > >In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: > > It would help, I think, to have a baseline from which to theorize. > > Would any of the Brits care to expound on the general state of sex > > education in the British boarding school system? > I went to a "public" school in the 70's and received _no_ sex education whatsoever -- maybe this was generally the case at this time, so the wizarding world's lack of sex ed is not so surprising (giving its general archaic setting). Then again I did grow up on the Isle of Wight (backwards even in the UK) ... _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From amani at charter.net Mon Oct 27 11:50:56 2003 From: amani at charter.net (Taryn Kimel) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:50:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Interviews, James - Seeker or Chaser? (was Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin) References: <158.2677cd17.2ccdb0ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <003c01c39c80$95749ba0$0400a8c0@charterpa.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83651 Taryn: > It seems hard to believe that QuickQuotes over at the > Leaky Cauldron would be hosting a fradulent interview. > For referece, the quotes are from an online chat at > Scholastic.com on October 16, 2000. ---------- Blue Eyes: It always seems hard to believe that interviews are fake. But it does happen, one actor (who shall remain nameless unless anyone cares to know for proof's sake) spread rumors about 2 movies he made with Orlando Bloom but later he said it was all a sham and all the interviews were just made up. Interviews are not hard to make up, and there are other interviews presumably by JKR in which she swears James is a Seeker. I'm just saying that we can't always trust what we read, if it's on TV that's different but not just a website. Taryn: Okay, I went ahead and did a search on google and came up with the same interview transcript on the actual scholastic.com site. http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm So I'd say that's that. Blue Eyes: And why would a Chaser be playing with a Snitch? It makes no sense, besides, Chasers wouldn't necessarily be able to catch the Snitch, they aren't meant to have a Seeker's reflexes or they'd be Seeker's not Chasers now wouldn't they? Taryn: Cause he likes playing around with the Snitch? He could simply prefer the Chaser position and enjoy showing off his reflexes with the Snitch. Just because someone CAN play a position doesn't mean they'd necessarily prefer it. Note Ginny in OotP. ---------- Taryn : http://taryn.shirataki.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lmbolland at earthlink.net Mon Oct 27 12:26:02 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:26:02 -0000 Subject: A Response To Lauri, And A Word On The DA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: > > I would, of course, be delighted to submt this post in article form > to Steve Vander Ark. What's the best way to approach him? Should I > just e-mail him directly, or invite him to see this post first, here > at Harry Potter For Grownups? How is this sort of thing generally > done? I can't say for sure, I imagine you could write to his assistant Michele michele at hp-lexicon.org and see if they'd be interested in your observed 'truths' about the DADA profs. I know he's VERY picky, and I think he does read this list somewhat regularly. He only takes essays from adults, I believe. Lauri From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 13:08:00 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:08:00 -0000 Subject: Azkaboon: The Shrieking Shack Sequence (filks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83653 Here are the 8th 9th and 10th filks from the musical "Azkaboon" from Lerner & Loewe's Brigadoon, which comprise the Shrieking Shack sequence Dedicated to Grannybat MIDIs can be heard at: Hear a MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat228.html The Worst Day of Your Life (PoA, Chap 17-19) To the tune of Love of My Life from Brigadoon THE SCENE: Under the Whomping Willow, then to the Shrieking Shack. The TRIO learn the shocking truth about Sirius, Lupin & MWPP. HARRY The fugitive Black was in pursuit At last one night his long quest bore fruit. I thought he'd betrayed James and his wife, But it was then he changed my life. One night 'neath the moon and the mean Willow tree A cat and a dog launched their conspiracy The cat chased the rat and then after them went Ron The dog it came a-chargin' and then all of them were gone I gave hunt with Herm and ran straight to the Shack We came face to face with the infamous Black He seized both our wands with an Expelliarmus And then calmly stated his intent to murder one of us I vowed Black's efforts would be for naught I lunged at the man, and how we fought! I felt that in the ensuing strife That one of us would lose his life HERMIONE He burst through the doorway, Professor R.L. I cried, "It is Black, the one you must corral!" I thought we were safe, but then much to our unease Lupin spoke soft to Sirius and gave him a big squeeze I cried, "Tis a werewolf, a werewolf is he. He's been helping Black so to murder Harry." Lupin said my score was just 33 percent For he would never harm Harry and that Black was innocent He said, "Tis Scabbers that we must view For he's no rat, he's Pete Pettigrew. Tis he who gave to us all this strife And now's a lower form of life." LUPIN: Oh, as a young laddie, by wolf I was bit When I came to school, Dumble kept it secret Three friends learned the truth, and to aid me in my plight They became Animagi and we romped each waxing night. Upon the Marauder's Map nicknames we put Of Wormtail, Moody and Prongs and Padfoot. No quartet ever explored more of Hogwarts' School Yet I knew that I was guilty for such breaking of the rules But then one night when I'm in the Shack "I'll trick Snivellus," thought Mister Black. But thanks to James, Snapey still survives . SNAPE (pulling off the invisibility cloak): .To greet the worst day of your life! Oh, such is my vengeance, my vengeance so sweet With both Black and Lupin, my triumph's complete. Your plot to kill Harry is simply not to be When it comes to harming Harry, I want a monopoly. Don't ask me to fathom the lycanthrope mind The best way to treat one is by a rope bind. On the grounds of Hogwarts dementors glide about I need only summon them, two souls will flicker out. TRIO: So we said, "Snapey, please lend an ear." But he replied, "Just get outta here!" And so for the first time in our lives We teacher hit with a line drive .! (Snape is knocked unconscious by the TRIO's triple Expelliarmus) *************************** The Wizard I Would Kill (PoA, Chap. 19) To the tune of The Heather on the Hill, from Lerner & Loewe's Brigadoon THE SCENE: The Shrieking Shack. SIRIUS speaks in his own defense SIRIUS: Why have I been stalking to get him, out beyond the Azkaban isle? For 12 years the Weasleys have pet him, as I've been held in durance vile That's what I'd like to do: kill the Wizard Pettigrew. I pledged that I'd be Secret-Keeper for James and for the lovely Lil So they were safe from the Grim Reaper and the Wizard who would kill But when I thought how best to sham them, I took what proved a poison pill I trusted Peter - how I'd damn him! ? `gainst the Wizard who would kill There can't be other deeds as rank and base There can't be other rats more in disgrace He must have been so proud when he betrayed Thirty coins paid And in the street when I faced Peter, he acted with an evil will He framed me as a foul Death Eater, and a wizard who would kill A wizard who would kill LUPIN: How could you know it was Wormtail, since rodents number in the Mil How was that you could spurn jail for a Wizard who did kill? SIRIUS: Cornelius gave me a newspaper proving that Pettigrew lived still I took a vow that I'd escape there and that Peter I would kill Though there were `mentors who held me at bay There's one unhappy thought they can't allay The fact I'm innocent ? though it caused pain It kept me sane . BLACK & LUPIN And now that we are reuniting, for Pettigrew `tis dead-endsville He is the rat we'll be indicting and the wizard we will kill The wizard we will kill. ***************************** For You-Know-Who Go I (PoA, Chap. 19) To the tune of There But For You Go I from Brigadoon THE SCENE: His Animagic cover blown, PETER tries to finesse his way out of his predicament PETER: You call me a spy, but I'm a man so soft and weak, For years I have been hiding as a rat Animagi abiding my own time But my cover's blown and all my crimes I now must own I saw a Lord who was bound to win And though I felt some chagrin I knew I must double-cross every ally For You-Know-Who went I. I see a boy looking hard at me, An orphan granting mercy >From Lupin and Black who both think I should die For You-Know-Who went I Angry men surround me, who will turn me in, But chance may unbound me, via Remus Lupin He is a man who was in such haste his potion he did not taste I gave them the slip as I uttered this cry: "For You-Know-Who go I!" (As Lupin changes to a wolf, Peter transforms into a rat and flees) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 13:57:38 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:57:38 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83654 Hi all, I have been following the posted discussions about wizarding population and about religion in the WW pretty closely and this morning while eating my breakfast a question popped into my brain: How does the British WW relate to the British royal family? Now, admitedly I am an American, so I am a little fuzzy on the details of how a constitutional monarchy works (and I am only pretty sure that that's even what the system is called). I am wondering because I also feel that this question relates to religion in the WW, as they (religion and the monarchy) are both authorities outside the MoM. So, do withces and wizards owe any alleigence to the Queen? Any Brits on the list willing to help a poor, befuddled American? Any other thoughts (like why I should change my breakfast cereal to something that doesn't make my brain think weird things)? Meri From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 27 10:57:16 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:57:16 -0000 Subject: Seeker Size (was Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: Bluequeak: > So, given that the Seeker needs a small light build; it's entirely > possible that James played Seeker in his first or second year (and > Gryffindor won the cup, which is why TMTMNBM has him down as > Gryffindor Seeker on the trophy. > > Then he got older, bigger, and a bit bored with looking for the > Snitch all the time. Another good Seeker came along, and he switched > to Chaser There is a canon example that the Seeker is not necessarily small and light: "Diggory was a fifth year and a lot bigger than Harry. Seekers were usually light and speedy but Diggory's weight would be an advantage in this weather..." (POA p.131 UK edition) From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 27 11:12:05 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:12:05 -0000 Subject: Patriotism in the WW? In-Reply-To: <004201c39c6f$e06627c0$8a59d718@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melissa McCarthy wrote: > There seems to be something of a lack of patriotism in the Wizarding World. The only example I've come across is Seamus' enthusiastic support of the Irish team at the Quidditch World Cup. Geoff: I think there was a great deal of support from Irish wizards in general. "'Er - is it my eyes or has everything gone green?' said Ron. It wasn't just Ron's eyes. They had walked into a patch of tents that were all covered with a thick growth of shamrocks so that it looked as though small, oddly shaped hillocks had sprouted out of the earth......... 'Like the decorations?'said Seamus grinning, when Harry, Ron and Hermione had gone over to say hello. 'The Ministry's not too happy.' 'Ah, why shouldn't we show our colours? ' said Mrs.Finnigan. 'You should see what the Bulgarians have got dangling all over their tents. You'll be supporting Ireland of course?' she added, eyeing Harry, Ron and Hermione beadily." (GOF UK edition p 76) Bear in mind that the English team were out of the competition so there wasn't the call for the English wizards to get so excited, although quite often, members of the four "Home Nations" in the UK will support the others if their own team has been eliminated. Melissa: > Melissa, reflecting that the English language desperately needs a set of words to replace "he/she" and "him/her"! > Geoff: What's wrong with "one"? It's considered a bit "posh" sometimes, but it is genderless. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 27 15:39:18 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:39:18 -0000 Subject: James as both Chaser and Seeker: Seeker Size (was Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: Geoff wrote: > > There is a canon example that the Seeker is not necessarily small > and light: > > "Diggory was a fifth year and a lot bigger than Harry. Seekers > were usually light and speedy but Diggory's weight would be an > advantage in this weather..." (POA p.131 UK edition) Quite true, but while this makes it possible James could have been a Seeker in his Fifth Year (when the Snitch Scene takes place) it means that, like Diggory, he'd have to be considerably better than any smaller, lighter Seeker candidates to make up for the weight disadvantage. It may have been due to Harry falling off his broom, but Cedric Diggory did beat Harry to the Snitch. Diggory was *good*. Also, we now know that players can change position mid year (otherwise Gryffindor would have had to play their remaining matches with one chaser and no Seeker after the Attack of the Umbridge). So again, James could have been an ex-Seeker, playing Chaser, who would go back in as Seeker in exceptionally awful weather (when the lighter First Seeker would be blown off their broom). Personally, I think JKR has James playing with the Snitch as a little jab at the makers of TMTSNBM. ;-) James is a Chaser - but look, movie type people, I've given you a scene with James and a Snitch, so you don't have to do *any* rewriting. ;-) Pip!Squeak From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Oct 27 15:48:55 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:48:55 -0000 Subject: Patriotism in the WW? In-Reply-To: <004201c39c6f$e06627c0$8a59d718@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melissa McCarthy wrote: >>> There seems to be something of a lack of patriotism in the Wizarding World. The only example I've come across is Seamus' enthusiastic support of the Irish team at the Quidditch World Cup. There's some awareness that wizards living in other countries do some things differently, as in the trouble over Ali Bashir and his flying carpet, but I'm not seeing any overt pride in England, simply a sense of "some of our ways are not the same as some of theirs." The Ministry of Magic deals with the Muggle bureaucracy but seems to feel no particular loyalty to it, or to the Queen. We don't see the students singing God Save the Queen in the morning, but that may not be significant as there's a great deal that we don't see them doing. (Incidentally, would a real British boarding school have God Save the Queen sung? Growing up in the Canadian public school system, I remember O Canada being sung every morning at the start of the school day.)<<< Ali:- I don't think that what you're seeing is necessarily reflective of the WW, but actually British, or perhaps more particularly, English society. There is no singing of the national anthem in the morning, or swearing allegiance to the flag. Until very recently, many Britons had come to see the Union Jack as representing the extreme right rather than instilling in us any real sense of patriotism or pride. This has changed slightly, but we are not big flag wavers. This is a generalism, but the English tend to take their patriotism for granted. Perhaps it is our history, but it is almost something of an embarassment. There is mention of the national anthem in GoF "Dean Thomas hopped three times around the room singing the national anthem" p. 203 UK edition. So, it is used in the WW, but like the English muggle world, it is not common place. * I believe that the national anthem is the British national anthem rather than a specific wizarding one, as I'm sure that Harry would have noted that it was different. ** IMO the Scots are more nationalistic than the English, but, although Hogwarts is in Scotland, it seems to take students from all over the UK. Melissa: >>> So, is there patriotism at all in the WW? Is an individual's first loyalty to his/her country as against other countries; does he see him/herself first as a subject or citizen of his/her country and then as a wizard/witch? It's possible that patriotism matters in the WW, at least somewhat; <<< Ali: I'd say yes, there *is* patriotism. When England lost to Transylvania in the Quidditch World Cup, Charlie says "I wish England had got through, though. That was embarassing" p.59 GoF, UK edition. The fact that Harry and the Weasleys support Ireland in the World Cup is IMO what would happen if England was knocked out of the Football World Cup - *most* people would probably support Ireland. (I don't think that England though would necssarily get the support of the other "Home Countries" if they were to be the one side remaining in a competition). I think what you are seeing is patriotism, English style, rather than wizarding style. I'm not really sure what would come first, patriotism towards your country, or belief in your magical status. I think that in our own world, people's believes and mores are a complicated mix. The danger is of course when the different believes come into conflict, but I would think that until that time, wizards magic and dedication to their secret society lies side by side with their patriotism. > Melissa, reflecting that the English language desperately needs a set of words to replace "he/she" and "him/her"! Well, in sloppy Brit-speak, it has become acceptable to use "they" or "their". I say that it is acceptable even if it is not grammatically correct as the usage is now very wide spread. Also, the BBC have decided it is "ok" according to a BBC newsgroup on writing. Ali (Whose English and particularly her punctuation is very sloppy) From eloiseherisson at aol.com Mon Oct 27 15:50:49 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:50:49 EST Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83659 Chapter summary. At the end of the last chapter, Harry and his guard have just landed in Grimmauld place. Harry has been instructed to memorise the writing on a piece of parchment: "The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London." Moody prevents Harry asking about the Order in public, before magically igniting the parchment. Number 12 is invisible to Harry until he follows Lupin's instructions to think about what he just memorised. Lupin magically opens the door and the group enter. Once inside, Moody restores the lights to the street lamps with the Put-Outer, before reversing the Disillusionment Charm which Harry has been under. Molly appears, hastily greets Harry and directs him to his room, telling the others that a meeting has just started. Entering his room, Harry is greeted by Hermione and Ron, who explain their silence about what has been happening as having been ordered by Dumbledore, who did not want Harry to know anything. Harry expresses all the anger and frustration that have been building up in him since the start of the holidays. The twins and then Ginny appear. We learn that they have been trying to listen in to the Order's meetings by the use of the twins latest invention, extendable ears. They have been found out and Ginny explains that the kitchen door has been made Imperturbable to prevent their spying. We learn that Snape is part of the Order, as are all the Weasleys except for Percy. Mention of Percy leads to the revelation of a family rift and elaboration on the Ministry of Magic's and the Daily Prophet's attitudes towards Harry. When the meeting ends and Molly appears to tell the trio that they can come down to dinner, we learn of the existence of Kreacher, the house elf, a little of his character and Hermione's continued interest in House Elf rights. The group attempt to spy on the Order in the hallway as most of them leave. These include Snape, who, we learn, never eats at the house. Despite instructions to be quiet in the hallway, Tonks accidentally falls over the troll's leg umbrella stand. The noise awakens a family portrait who screams uncontrollably at the group. An unidentified wizard runs up, yells at her to shut up, is abominated by the portrait as a blood traitor, before (with Lupin) wrenching the curtains shut and being revealed as Sirius Black. 'Hello, Harry,' he said grimly, 'I see you've met my mother.' Discussion. There are several elements in this chapter. Factual information: What the Order is; an indication of its members; why Ron and Hermione have been so uninformative; the attitude of the MoM, Fudge and the Daily Prophet towards Harry; more information about the Decree for Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery, etc. Atmosphere building: Chiefly in the detailed description of no 12. Characterisation: Chiefly revealed through interaction between the trio, but also more on the Weasleys. Plot: Build up to the revelation that Sirius comes from a family of Dark wizards. Emphasis on the theme of secrecy: Dumbledore wants to keep Harry in ignorance, but the reason why is at this stage not revealed. Questions: 1) How effective is the atmosphere-building in this chapter? What is the reader's initial reaction to Grimmauld place? Are there any features which lift it beyond being a stock gothic horror setting? How effective is it when we realise that this is Sirius' family home? 2) How convincing are the characterisations of Harry, Ron and Hermione? Does Harry's anger ring true? Is it reasonable? Are Hermione's and Ron's reactions those we would expect? Do they respond in a united way or does the character of each show through in their reactions? 3) What do we learn about the Weasleys, individually and in relation to each other in this chapter? Was Percy's falling out with his family to be predicted from what has gone before? Do we see signs of Ginny's character developing? 4) *Is* Harry the object of the guard duty which Ron mentions? Or is it the prophecy? 5) Is any light thrown on the workings of the Fidelius Charm, by which Number Twelve seems to be protected? 6) Hermione says, of the MoM's threat to expel Harry, 'You really shouldn't be, not if they abide by their own laws, there's no case against you.' What more can we infer about the MoM and Cornelius Fudge? Do we have any reason to expect the Ministry to abide by its own laws? Do we assume that the suppression of the news of the Dementor attack is done with the collusion of Fudge? 7) The Black family home is adorned with shrunken house-elf heads and a troll's leg umbrella stand. What does this say about the relationship of wizards (or at least Dark wizards) to other magical beings? 8) We learn that there is a house elf in residence, yet the house has been uncared for. Should Kreacher's family loyalty not ensure that he keeps the house in order for whenever the rightful owner returns? 9) We learn that Harry has been kept in ignorance on Dumbledore's strict orders. We learn later in the book of the reason for this. Is there justification for Dumbledore not telling Harry *why* he cannot know things? Is this simply a plot device to delay telling *us* about the mind connection between Harry and Voldemort (a connection already implied in GoF)? 10) Why did Dumbledore think Harry was safer in Privet Drive than at Grimmauld Place? 11) The younger Weasleys are obviously at Grimmauld Place because their parents are. But why is Hermione there? She seems to be spending an increasing amount of time in the school holidays with her friends in the wizarding world. Is she becoming distanced from her Muggle family? 12) Why does JKR make the point that Snape never eats at the house? 13) Why do the members of the Order apparently leave en masse via the front door, given the secrecy which surrounded Harry's arrival? Do we assume that the house is protected by anti-apparition charms and the like? How will they have left without attracting attention (we can assume that Dumbledore is back in possession of his Put-outer)? ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oiboyz at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 15:36:09 2003 From: oiboyz at hotmail.com (oiboyz) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:36:09 -0000 Subject: Speaking up for Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83660 "Ali" wrote: > If Petunia craved respectability and normality above all else, then > I would suspect that the only thing important enough for her to take > in her despised nephew, was to stop something that was a threat to > that way of life. I believe that either Petunia or Dudley had shown > some sign of magical power, and Petunia's pact with Dumbledore was > to prevent it from being taken any further. I have chosen to think > that it was Dudley who at a young age had shown some magical > prowess, Petunia's reaction to it was Dudley's worst memory. What > would be worse for Petunia than her own beloved son showing signs of > the very thing that she despises most? Petunia dealt with > this "problem" by smothering Dudley, in an effort to protect him > from himself. Perhaps the pact with Dumbledore was to stop Dudley > getting a Hogwarts letter. If Petunia then threw Harry out, > Dumbledore would make Dudley aware of his magical inheritance. Thus, > Petunia deals with Harry's magical abilities by trying to squash > them out, without success, but by pampering her son, she proves > successful.>> oiboyz: That's an interesting theory, and I think it fits Petunia's and Dudley's personalities very well (not to mention that it would be too cool if Dudley turned out to be a wizard too...) I can't agree with it, only because I can't picture Dumbledore agreeing to deny any child (even a Dursley child) his birthright of magic. If the magic talent was in Petunia, and she herself begged not to go to Hogwarts, that would be a different matter... I believe the "pact" Petunia sealed was simply the activation of the blood protection over Harry. She was unwilling and grudging, but not even Petunia wanted to leave baby Harry in grave danger when her participation could save his life. --oiboyz From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 27 15:43:33 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:43:33 -0000 Subject: A Response To Lauri, And A Word On The DA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: Louis: > Also, I'd like to throw out a personal opinion about the DA. I > don't think it'll be dissolved at all. Why, you ask? Draco > Malfoy. Draco Malfoy, almost entirely. Let's look at the little > prat, shall we? Here's a fellow who wants nothing more than to do > everything, achieve everything that Potter has or can achieve, and > outclass him all the while. I feel that he works towards this goal > on both a conscious and unconscious level. Potter has a set of > friends that shadow him almost everywhere? Why, so does young Mr. > Malfoy... although his relationship with them lacks any depth or > meaning, and they, themselves, aren't worth talking about. Potter's > the Seeker on the Gryffindor team? Well, so's Draco, in the next > book, and *he's* on the best broomstick on the market. Bear in > mind, he is not *always* able to achieve this 'Malfoy doppleganger' > state in every single aspect. I, for one, was completely surprised > that affluent Mommy and Daddy Malfoy did not run out and buy Draco a > personal Firebolt the moment he was conscious that Harry had one - I > suppose that even the *Malfoys* have limits on how much that kid is > spoiled. And, of course, there was absolutely *nothing* Draco could > do about Harry being a Triwizard champion. > > But the pattern still continues, into Book 5. Where Harry has the > respect and admiration of Gryffindor (generally), Malfoy has the > Slytherins all singing his song. At the same time Harry is getting > Cho Chang as a girlfriend, Malfoy picks up with Pansy Parkinson. > Where Potter is involved in the DA, Malfoy enlisted into the > Inquisitoral Squad, which exists, at least in part, to flush out the > DA. It must've tickled him pink to have his first real 'one-up' on > Harry when he was installed as Slytherin prefect. > > But now, at the end of Book 5, Draco's out for Harry's blood. > Essentially, Harry robbed Draco forever of the ability to boast > about his father, and the knowledge of that will eat at Draco's > thoughts and personality all summer. Geoff: I have very mixed feelings about Draco. Once, I considered him to be an absolute pain in the backside but I sometimes find myself harbouring more then a little bit of sympathy for him; who couldn't, with a father like Lucius?! He obviously wanted, for some reason or another, to befriend Harry right at the beginning but managed to mess this up in no uncertain terms because of his arrogant approach and that has coloured their relationship ever since. (Perhaps I have read too much fanfic lately in which he manages to reach a rapprochement with Harry, Ron and Hermione in one way or another.) I've known people who have wanted to make friends with someone who hasn't responded and it can produce all sorts of mixed reactions which leads me to my next thought.. Interestingly, I seem to have been writing a number of posts comparing people lately ? Wormtail v Wormtongue and Wormtail v Gollum for example. Arising out of reading Louis's excellent notes, the thought crossed my mind that Peter Pettigrew always wanted to be with the "big shots" and, as Sirius Black said in POA, he wouldn't come back unless he knew that Voldemort was the biggest bully in the playground. I wonder whether Draco might be tempted into that sort of scenario? He wants to be equal or better than Harry. Might he be led into some sort of betraying situation? Could he become a second Wormtail? I'd like to see him acknowledging the error of his ways and improving but I ha' ma doots; but, putting on my hat as a Christian in the real world, I've seen stranger things happen. Roll on, Book 6. Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 27 15:48:16 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:48:16 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: Meri: > Hi all, > I have been following the posted discussions about wizarding > population and about religion in the WW pretty closely and this > morning while eating my breakfast a question popped into my brain: > How does the British WW relate to the British royal family? Now, > admitedly I am an American, so I am a little fuzzy on the details of > how a constitutional monarchy works (and I am only pretty sure that > that's even what the system is called). I am wondering because I also > feel that this question relates to religion in the WW, as they > (religion and the monarchy) are both authorities outside the MoM. So, > do witches and wizards owe any alleigence to the Queen? Geoff: I hope the following notes might cast a bit more light on things: A little brief history. Britain became effectively a constitutional monarchy in 1832 after the passage of the Reform Bill. The reigning monarch now is the head of state but with very little power. Walter Bagehot, the famous Victorian writer on the constitution, defines the constitutional monarch's rights as being ? to be consulted, to encourage and to warn. Often, the king has remained in the background but, on occasion, as with George VI and Churchill during WWII, he contributed greatly to the smooth running of political matters. Occasionally, the monarch will be called in to solve a knotty constitutional problem as when the Australian Governor-General dismissed the Prime Minister several years ago. In terms of religion, Henry VIII made the Church of England the official church in the mid 16th century when he broke with Rome and the monarch is always styled Head of the Church (of England) and Defender of the Faith. However, the average member of Joe Public does not take an oath of allegiance. whereas Members of the Armed Forces obviously do. Likewise, the monarch does not claim any authority over the Non- conformist/Protestant churches such as Methodist, Baptist, Congregational, United Reformed etc. This begs the question whether the Queen knows of the existence of the Wizarding World (the Prime Minister does as we are told so in POA) and whether the incumbent Minister of Magic considers himself in any way to owe allegiance to the Queen. One assumes that wizards from a Muggle or half-blood background such as Hermione and Seamus or those who have had a lot of dealings with the Muggle world, such as Harry himself, would be aware of the structure and have their own position firmly in mind. Geoff From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Oct 27 16:05:00 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:05:00 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > > It is pretty apparent that at no point during this little interaction > did Malfoy (or Harry or Dobby, for that matter) consider himself to be > the owner of the sock. When Dobby catches it a moment later, the sock > is still described as Harry's sock, not Lucius'. Nor did Lucius > intentionally mean for Dobby to catch the sock. > > Now, you could simply accept this at face value and say, yes, Lucius > had the sock and then Dobby did; therefore, Lucius gave the sock to > Dobby. But that's no fun. The alternate theories that have been > presented are 1a) Harry is actually related to the Malfoy's, and so > Harry was capable of freeing Dobby directly, 1b) Dobby used to serve > the Potters, and so Dobby still considers him his family, or 2) The > "master gave clothes" action is verified at the discretion of the > house elf himself, and Dobby chose the loosest possible definition for > it, not caring about intention or possession time (whereas Winky had > much stricter guidelines). Differing opinions appearing on the reasons for Dobby's behaviour. Good. I hate it when everybody agrees. There were too many responses to my original post to clip from them all, this would end up looking like a dog's dinner, but I will mention those that caught my eye. To business. Penny Bee(83489) and Jennifer (83526) place emphasis on regarding Dobby as atypical for an Elf; this they feel, would explain much about his actions. As far as we can tell, the exemplars for Elves seem to be the Hogwarts Hive, happy in their work, disgusted with the idea of freedom. In this category would be Winky too. Dobby does become atypical, but only *after* he has gained his freedom; before then there is little to distinguish him from the rest except his attraction to Harry. This is what fascinates. Why Harry? If Dobby wanted to screw up Malfoy's plan why not warn the Weasleys? Arthur is family, even if a bit distant and Ginny was the prime target after all. (IMO Lucius had marked Ginny as his target; consider, she was the only one of the gang who was about to start school. As such she would be loaded down with cauldron, books, robes, scales etc. Easy to slip a diary in amongst that lot; much more difficult with Harry, who just had half a dozen books.) Or why didn't Dobby warn Dumbledore? He seems to have a good reputation among Elves and he has the power to counter Lucius. But no, he chooses to warn a twelve year old boy who, if the plot had developed as planned would have been one target among many. Annemehr (83492), apart from correcting one of my egregious mistakes, (thank you) takes a different line, seeing significance in the fact that Kreacher does not punish himself whereas Dobby does. there's a strong implication that Dobby has been instructed to punish himself whenever he says or thinks something bad about the family. He has no problem warning Harry that there is a plot, even though punishments may come later. Kreacher suffers no punishments, self inflicted or otherwise for his verbal hostility to Sirius. This I would take to mean that he has specific instructions on what he can talk about but everything else is up for grabs. Dobby is the same, except for the sadism of the Malfoys, IMO. Sock tossing and it's implications divided most with Annemehr taking a strict view that any clothing under any circumstances conveys freedom, while Inge Matt, Jennifer and Corinthum consider that Dobby might be an opportunist who was just looking for an chance to slip Malfoy's leash. The strict interpretation would be difficult to live with - unable to pass any clothing, including things like visitor's cloaks to your House Elf. No, I think that Elves consider the words 'present clothes', with it's overtones of a formal action (as Crouch with Winky) as the defining phrase. leb2323 brings up the interesting point of the Elf Re-location Office at the Ministry and that perhaps Dobby has a significant employment history. But if he has transferred wouldn't his loyalties be adjusted? Would you really expect that an Elf could defy his present family and go against their interests? Not likely. In that case no-one would want a used Elf. We agree that Harry intended that Dobby should go free. He knows that this can be achieved by the presentation of clothes, so he tricks Malfoy into discarding Harry's sock so Dobby can catch it. Most posters have agreed that for the action to be valid there must be intention on the part of the giver. Malfoy did not have this intention, but Harry did. Dobby regards Harry's transfer of the sock, so long as Malfoy did not object, as sufficient to endow freedom. Others accept that there is some sort of familial connection between Harry and the Malfoys but consider that it is probably distant. Some deny any relationship at all. I would argue that for that sock to mean anything the relationship must be pretty close. Dobby knows something; so does Malfoy, DD and maybe a few more. Harry doesn't and neither do we - yet. Harry thinks that he has tricked Malfoy. He has, but not in the way Harry thinks, i.e. that Malfoy just discarding a sock meant freedom. IMO Dobby accepts Harry as a close(ish) family member whose intentions are to be taken seriously, so long as Malfoy does not interfere. This is a plot sensitive connection - the Potters and the Malfoys are close (maybe this had an influence on the Sorting Hat wanting to put Harry in Slytherin). Just what the connection is I haven't yet figured out, but there are indirect pointers to the existence of the connection: Dobby in protective mode, acting as if Harry is family, the sock accepted as a freedom present, Dobby continuing to look after Harry even after he gets his freedom. We need more information on James Potter and his family. If James Potter is indeed his original name - so nondescript and ordinary for a pureblood wizarding family, so out of place among Sirius, Albus, Lupin, Severus and Cornelius. No sign of a Potter on the Black tapestry, either. With all the old families interconnected you'd think that Sirius would have pointed some- thing out, even if it was just a scorched spot or two. Most unsatisfactory. Kneasy From Veritas771 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 16:20:33 2003 From: Veritas771 at hotmail.com (michaelkgidlow) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:20:33 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter in 80s movie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83664 As I was flipping through the channels yesterday, I came across a grade B horror flick called "Troll". I don't know the exact date, but I know it was made sometime in the early eighties. Anyway, the name of the protagonist is Harry Potter! The boy even resembles J.K. Rowling's creation somewhat. Incidentally, the boy's father is also named Harry Potter. Even more bizarre is that this Harry Potter has to battle magical creatures to save his sister. Is this all just a coincidence, or did Rowling borrow some ideas from this movie for her books? I do not doubt Rowling's creativity or imagination, but it's not like her series is totally original. Essentially, her stories are just a skillfully crafted combination of myths, legands, folklore, and history. It's not as though she actually came up with hippogriffs, or unicorns, or any of the other magical creatures that inhabit Harry's world. What she has done is combine those elements to make very entertaining and good stories. Michael Gidlow Michael K. Gidlow From dcyasser at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 16:36:05 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:36:05 -0000 Subject: Interviews, James - Seeker or Chaser? (was Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83665 --- > Pip!Squeak: > > Further, Sirius asks James where he got the Snitch, and James says he nicked it. If James were his teams *Seeker* he would have no need to nick the Snitch. He could ask to borrow it for some extra practice. But if he's *not* the Seeker, he has no legitimate reason to have that Snitch, and would have to nick it rather than borrow it. > Actually, Harry nicked the Snitch too, (although inadvertently and not to impress girls) when he was booted off the Quidditch team. ("The stolen Snitch zoomed over their heads." p.418 US hardcover) Hmm, so whether or not they were both Seekers, Harry and James were both Snitch-nickers! dc From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 17:12:13 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:12:13 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > wrote: > > Meri: > > Hi all, > > I have been following the posted discussions about wizarding > > population and about religion in the WW pretty closely and this > > morning while eating my breakfast a question popped into my brain: > > How does the British WW relate to the British royal family? Now, > > admitedly I am an American, so I am a little fuzzy on the details > of > > how a constitutional monarchy works (and I am only pretty sure that > > that's even what the system is called). I am wondering because I > also > > feel that this question relates to religion in the WW, as they > > (religion and the monarchy) are both authorities outside the MoM. > So, > > do witches and wizards owe any alleigence to the Queen? > > Geoff: > I hope the following notes might cast a bit more light on things: > A little brief history. Britain became effectively a constitutional > monarchy in 1832 after the passage of the Reform Bill. The reigning > monarch now is the head of state but with very little power. Walter > Bagehot, the famous Victorian writer on the constitution, defines the > constitutional monarch's rights as being ? to be consulted, to > encourage and to warn. Often, the king has remained in the background > but, on occasion, as with George VI and Churchill during WWII, he > contributed greatly to the smooth running of political matters. > Occasionally, the monarch will be called in to solve a knotty > constitutional problem as when the Australian Governor-General > dismissed the Prime Minister several years ago. In terms of religion, > Henry VIII made the Church of England the official church in the mid > 16th century when he broke with Rome and the monarch is always styled > Head of the Church (of England) and Defender of the Faith. > > However, the average member of Joe Public does not take an oath of > allegiance. whereas Members of the Armed Forces obviously do. > Likewise, the monarch does not claim any authority over the Non- > conformist/Protestant churches such as Methodist, Baptist, > Congregational, United Reformed etc. This begs the question whether > the Queen knows of the existence of the Wizarding World (the Prime > Minister does as we are told so in POA) and whether the incumbent > Minister of Magic considers himself in any way to owe allegiance to > the Queen. One assumes that wizards from a Muggle or half-blood > background such as Hermione and Seamus or those who have had a lot of > dealings with the Muggle world, such as Harry himself, would be aware > of the structure and have their own position firmly in mind. > > Geoff Meri again: Thanks for clearing up the muddled knowledge of an American. My confusion basically lay in the fact that in America we have no figure- head head of state, because the president is given actual power, and your post helped to clear that up for me, so thank you! Anyway, it would be interesting to know more about the WW's relationship with the monarchy and religion, though it doesn't seem like JKR is going to make those relationships/distintions any clearer (and I am one of those readers who firmly opposes any interpretation of the books that makes Harry a Christ-like figure). I wonder if the WW even sees the monarchy as a figurehead representative of them? I am trying to picture witches and wizards lining the street to see a royal wedding or funeral, but it's not happening for me. Anyway, thanks for the info. Meri From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 17:25:07 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:25:07 -0000 Subject: Patriotism in the WW? In-Reply-To: <004201c39c6f$e06627c0$8a59d718@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melissa McCarthy wrote: Of course, this doesn't explain Seamus; perhaps patriotism is an issue in some countries but not in others. If that's true, though, there goes my half-formed theory about Muggle-borns' possible patriotism being a reason for purebloods to distrust them. Am I just overthinking this? Ideas? thoughts? smacks with a wet noodle? > > Melissa, reflecting that the English language desperately needs a set of words to replace "he/she" and "him/her"! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Maybe the reason Seaumus shows so much patriotism to Ireland is because he is half and half. His dad is a muggle, mom's a witch. He could get the wizard patriotism from his mom's side and then the other from his dad's side. His mom, even though she is a witch shows support for Ireland also, but maybe it is because she has been married to a muggle for so long that it rubbed off on her a bit. Diana From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 17:32:14 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:32:14 -0000 Subject: HP/LV related? (was: Dobby revisited) In-Reply-To: <20031026144708.39226.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83668 Penny Bee wrote: "I think that somehow Harry is related to LV ... ! I'm leaning toward the idea that somehow the connection is through Lily's family (and somehow Aunt Petunia is tied in)...but there really isn't any canon yet to back this up. " Me: I've read and read and read some more that many think that LV and HP are in some way related, but there is always the connection through Lily's family and the Slytherin route. Well, LV is not all Slytherin, he's a Riddle. So many want to make HP a Slytherin but not a Riddle. Well, what if he is? His familiarity with the name 'Riddle' in COS could spring from Riddle being his grandmother's (Mrs. Evans') maiden name, at some point in time mentioned by Petunia. Could she be a relative of the murdered Misters Riddle (LV's grandfather and father)? LV's aunt? How about related by marriage? Could said 'Ms. Riddle' be the mother of... Vernon Dursley? Marci (Just speculatin' of course) From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 27 17:33:59 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:33:59 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter in 80s movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83669 Michael Gridlow peaked my interest with: > As I was flipping through the channels yesterday, I came across a > grade B horror flick called "Troll". I don't know the exact date, but > I know it was made sometime in the early eighties. Anyway, the name > of the protagonist is Harry Potter! The boy even resembles J.K. > Rowling's creation somewhat. Tcy: - and always loving an excuse to search IMDB - here you go: http://imdb.com/title/tt0092115/ Michael Gridlow also said: >Is this all just a coincidence, or did Rowling borrow some ideas from this movie for her > books? I do not doubt Rowling's creativity or imagination, but it's > not like her series is totally original. Essentially, her stories are > just a skillfully crafted combination of myths, legands, folklore, > and history. Tcy, again: I doubt seriously that JKR had been influenced in the least by this movie. It was released in 1986 in the US - and if they were lucky, not at all in the UK . And it seems like an odd source for the name of the title character (but what do I really know?). I do agree that JKR has used bits from many sources and has been influenced by all sorts of mediums in creating the Potterverse. It's one of the reasons I love the series so much. There is so much in it that is familiar to me - that I can relate to. Tcy (hoping this post isn't too OT and that I've avoided howlers screaming in my direction) From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 17:45:22 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:45:22 -0000 Subject: SnitchJames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83670 > Furkin Blue Eyes wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83459 : > > << It is however, canon that James was a seeker. He is shown as > playing a snitch that he "nicked" from the quidditch ball trunk and > even sketched a snitch on his test before tracing lily's initials. >> Catlady wrote: > Third -- I've seen this in fanfic, but don't recall ever seeing it > on list -- LILY might have been the star Seeker from whom Harry > inherited his talent. That would explain James doodling a Golden > Snitch around her inititals, and using a Golden Snitch to try to > attract her attention. Now PK: There is indeed nothing to say Lily didn't play Quidditch... I would however like to submit a fourth possibility (which I haven't seen posted yet either, though it's entirely possible I missed it, I'm sure...) -- James could have played both positions in different years. Ginny's played Seeker and is planning to try out for Chaser; there's no reason to think this is unique, though probably the exact surrounding circumstances are. (James could also have been, say, Chaser and /reserve/ Seeker -- the Gryffindor team's lack of reserves seems a little silly for a long-term situation.) PK From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 17:47:22 2003 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:47:22 -0000 Subject: SnitchJames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83671 *mutters* Apologies. This has been covered. Mucked up my post-reading, sorry! PK From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Mon Oct 27 18:24:44 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:24:44 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83672 --- tanzgabu wrote: > The one thing that makes me wonder about the > whole Malfoy/Potter intermarriage thing, is when > Sirius and Harry are looking at the Black > genealogy. Sirius doesn't mention *anything* > about a Potter being on the tapestry . . . . > Maybe Sirius just chose not to mention it, but I > tend to lean away from that because of Sirius > going to live with the Potters. . . . Another possibility, as has been suggested before (sorry no cite!) is that the connection is between Lucius' family and James. Remember, Lucius is related to the Blacks (so far as we know) only by marriage. His family, therefore, does not show up on the Black family tree. From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Mon Oct 27 18:40:04 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:40:04 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83673 --- Kneasy wrote: > Sock tossing and [its] implications divided > most with Annemehr taking a strict view that > any clothing under any circumstances conveys > freedom, while Inge Matt, Jennifer and > Corinthum consider that Dobby might be an > opportunist who was just looking for [a] > chance to slip Malfoy's leash. > > The strict interpretation would be difficult to > live with - unable to pass any clothing, > including things like visitor's cloaks to your > House Elf. No, I think that Elves consider the > words 'present clothes', with it's overtones of > a formal action (as Crouch with Winky) as the > defining phrase. As I said before (# 83507), your theory has some appeal, and the most persuasive element is what you got back to at the beginning of this post, i.e., why did Dobby seek out Harry in the first place? On the mechanics of Dobby being freed, however, I'm disappointed that you haven't addressed the most direct canon we have on the mechanism, namely Dobby's statement to Harry (which I paraphrased, #83507, and Annemehr quoted, #83492) that "The family is careful not to pass Dobby even a sock, sir, for then he would be free to leave their house forever." As I suggested earlier, no "care" would be necessary if freeing an elf required the degree of intentionality that you suppose. On your view, the Malfoys could never have freed Dobby inadvertently. Can house elves do laundry or store visitors' cloaks? Maybe not; I don't recall any specific reference to them doing so in the books. Or perhaps such tasks can be entrusted to the elf so long as there are clear instructions that the clothing is not the elf's to keep. Either possibility would be consistent with the "strict" interpretation that carelessly passing the elf so much as a sock could lead to freedom. -- Matt From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 27 19:03:12 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:03:12 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard numbers References: <1066994164.7149.48769.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c39cbc$ffd8f860$17e76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 83674 Caipora wrote: >needs cleaning and repainting not much less than Platform 9 does. And >all that track! Maybe most is Muggle track, with the signals charmed >to keep other trains off when the Express is running. But even that >implies someone to devise new charms as Muggle systems change, and >there has to be a few kilometers of track too close to Hogwarts to >let Muggle track workers approach. There are certain differences in the needs of steam trains from the needs of diesel/electric ones (specifically they need to be able to take on water at times). While we can assume that there's probably a more magically efficient way of generating a head of steam than a cabful of sweating elves shovelling coal, you can't magic water out of nothing. However, once upon a time the UK had a far better railway network than it has now (much of which was closed down in the 1960s, bad cess to them) and I don't think it stretches the bounds of credibility that a large chunk of that has been wafted into the WW for the purposes of the Hogwarts Express (and any other trains that the WW might run that we don't know about yet). But I agree with you absolutely about the needs for maintenance, track repair, and so on. >Another data point is Mundungis's trade in stolen cauldrons. Is a >population of 24,000 sufficient so that the makers and buyers of said >cauldrons don't trip over one another? Somehow it doesn't seem so. And also far easier for whoever is responsible for law enforcement to track down any sharp practitioners like Dung. >Supporting three professional sports teams, a newpaper, a railroad, >three or four transport systems, a large hospital, and several >hundred government employees? Can you envision that? Make that (I think) 15 professional sports teams, several newspapers, etc, and you're closer to the mark. At the end of the day, I think that if you assume that Hogwarts contains the entire secondary school age population and work up, you have certain upper limits that constrain you. But nowhere in canon does it say that "all WW children go to Hogwarts". Until JKR does take that step (and I trust she's canny enough never to) then the other approach, to look at the WW and try to estimate how big it _needs to be_ in terms of population is also open to us. It leads to solutions which I find more comfortable and free from inconsistency than the first approach (my own figure is possibly higher than any of the others, namely that the ratio is 1,000,000 muggles to 10,000 wizards to 1 squib. A rough figure only and not based on any maths, but one that just has the right "feel" to me. Just by way of an aside, and nothing to do with your post, but it struck me that possibly Catlady's deep magic acts to maintain, not a ceiling on wizard numbers, but the muggle:wizard ratio. Catlady, any thoughts on that? >Certainly wizards have some advantages over Muggles. A charm that >makes income invisible to the IRS ("Inland Revenue" over there, I >think) would be a far lesser magic than many Rowling describes, and >far more useful. I would _love_ someone to come up with a Fantastic Post on public finance in the WW. SAdly I don't think it's one i've got the answer to! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 20:24:28 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:24:28 -0000 Subject: Patriotism in the WW? In-Reply-To: <004201c39c6f$e06627c0$8a59d718@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83675 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melissa McCarthy wrote: > There seems to be something of a lack of patriotism in the Wizarding World Snip Is an individual's first loyalty to his/her country as against other countries; does he see him/herself first as a subject or citizen of his/her country and then as a wizard/witch? I actually just posted something similar to this question (how wizards and witches see the Queen) and another question popped into my head: Can a witch or wizard serve in the armed forces of their country of residence? There has been a lot of speculation as to how Dumbledore's defeat of the dark wizard Grindlewald in 1945 relates to World War II. Could there have been wizards, say, storming the beaches at Normandy on D-Day? Or witches in the WACs? Also, to totally change tack, do wizards have birth certificates? Are witches and wizards counted in a census of the general population or do they exist completely seperately from us Muggles? More things to ponder while I should be studying... Meri (who appologises for maybe straying too far OT) From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Oct 27 20:23:33 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:23:33 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F9E1975.18721.3F9EEFF@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 83676 On 27 Oct 2003 at 15:48, Geoff Bannister wrote: > Occasionally, the monarch will be called in to solve a knotty > constitutional problem as when the Australian Governor-General > dismissed the Prime Minister several years ago. On a point of order (-8 Her Majesty was not consulted by the Governor-General of Australia prior to the dismissal of the government of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam. Sir John Kerr acted on his knowledge of the Constitution of Australia, with the advice of the Chief Justice of the High Court of Australia, without any reference to the Crown. The Speaker of the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Australia made contact with the Queen to ask her to intervene after the event. She declined and made it quite clear that she felt she felt she had 'no part in the decisions which the Governor-General must take in accordance with the Constitution,' and that 'it would not be proper... to intervene in person in matters which are so clearly placed within the jurisdiction of the Governor-General by the Constitution Act.' The whole event did lead to the best speech in Australian political history, which was a plus for me (I like speeches). In terms of Harry Potter - I think the fairly complex relationships between the Monarchy and the numerous members of the Commonwealth, serve to illustrate just how complex any relationship between the Crown and the Wizarding World might be - the Monarchy is an institution that is used to dealing with convoluted relationships. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 17:43:19 2003 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:43:19 -0000 Subject: twins first year beaters?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83677 A point which I have always thought undisputed was that Fred and George W were a year older than H/Hr/R et all. (Well, a yr above them in schooling terms anyway). In PS/SS I took it to mean that Harry was the youngest quidditch player in ages- a 1st yr. But, at the beginning of PS/SS I'm pretty sure that R tells H that F/G were beaters for the Gryf team 'last year'- wouldn't this be their 1st yr, hence arguing that Harry was not the youngest quidditch player? I could see ways in which F and G could be 1st yr beaters whilst Harry could still be the youngest, although this is talking a matter of months, and we all know that Harry's b-day is in July, so that doesn't leave much room for a large age-gap, and I would presume that this age-gap would be much cause for celebration (eg. Harry is the youngest in AGES) and so forth. OTOH Harry may be the youngest SEEKER- and the youngest of that particular position. OR... I could have just confused myself a whole lot, and be speaking (not litterally) utter nonsense... hmmm, the possibilies... evil_sushi From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 18:41:23 2003 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:41:23 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: <005101c3975e$1f6d90a0$6601a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Neyer" wrote: > Perhaps it is because he cannot be replaced as Potions Master and >for some reason, as yet to be revealed, it is vital for the >survival of DD's "army" to have mastered certain potions. We know >that Snape is very skilled with potions, because only he is able to >make the potion for Lupin. E.S- This seems quite plausible, although it appears Snape is not such a marvellous Prof. at this, and I would assume that some of the students do not gain their full potential at potions-eg. Neville, because of Snape's offensive/unfriendly etc disposition. But then if Potions Masters were so rare I supose this character defect could be overlooked... Mary Jo Neyer then says- >DD is able to find others who can teach DADA, even if they all >haven't been as effective as one might want, but none can equal >Snape for his expertise in potions. E.S- have to disagree with this one- I would think DD has not been able to find others... UMBRIDGE?????? Therefore I would think that DD does not want Snape to become the DADA Prof. Perhaps Snape has only applied for the job on Voldy's orders- it would be convient for him if one of his DEs was teaching his worst enemies defense- he would be able to ascertain and implant Harry & co's knowledge of defense and be able to strategise aruond it....hmmmm... -I think that this needs work, and I can't really see it. My opinion is that DD wants the students' opinions of Snape to remain the same- he is cruel, vindicative, etc, and so all the Jr DEs can go tell their parents how Snape is a 'bad-guy', and none will get any inclination that Snape is a double agent. Imagine if Draco wrote to his father how kind Snape was to Harry and the Gryffindors (hahahha yeah right). Lucius would imediately suspect something... As Snape does IMHO detest Harry, then this is no problem. But, if Snape is passionate about DADA as he appears to be (applying how many times??? she asks increduously), then maybe he would enjoy it and beome.. well.... nice???? ok, not NICE, but maybe more tolerable, as he would be working in something he perhaps... enjoys???? >DADA is more glamorous, but perhaps Potions is more essential. This is where I think any DRAGON'S BLOOD theories would come into place... but I wouldn't say that DADA was in any regard less important than Potions. (These are all just my random ideas, poke any holes that you wish) evil_sushi:) From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 20:03:09 2003 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:03:09 -0000 Subject: James/MWPP in Slytherin (was MWPP in all 4 Houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darryl_oneill" wrote: > In the Sch 2 interview there are two questions that are important. > 1) > Q.Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? > A.Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). > > 2) > Q. What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? > Was it seeker like Harry, or something different? > A.) James was Chaser. > > Note that J.K. puts Lily in Gryffindor but she does not confirm nor > deny that James was in Gryffindor. The person asking the question > says that James is in Gryffindor. J.K. only answers that he was a > Chaser. If James is in Gryffindor, J.K. would not comment. But if > James is not in Gryffindor, J.K. may not comment if this is > important to a future book. I know that JK says that James is chaser, but I definately stand strong with my beliefs that he is seeker... if she writes that he is in one of the books, I'll probably either take it with a pinch of salt if it is valuable to the plot... or ignore it altogether... but that's just my ignorance. > 1) It does not make sense that most of the major players all seem to > come from Gryffindor. HP is also a childrens book, and I think that JK needed to establish a sense of good/bad. In book 5, she has introduced greyer shades, but the sense of slytherin= MOSTLY bad is still present. Also, Harry is a Gryf, and we see events from his point of view, then the most influencial persons to him will be those who he interacts with the most- gryffindors. Therefore I see no reasons as to why most of the main 'good guys' couldn't belong to gryffindor. Dont forget that Snape is quite a main character, and a slytherin, and Luna will probably become quite influencial, and isa ravenclaw, not to mention Cedric, Cho, Susan Bones??, Ernie McMillan?? who might play larger roles in the books to come. > 2) The behavior of MWPP especially in book 5 seems much more like > Draco than anyone in Gryffindor. In Snape's worst memory, I think JK is showing that all people have their defects. Also, as Snape is a slyth, if a MWPP was in slyth, then wouldn't they be less hostile to him? F/G behaviour shows that pulling pranks can be good humour, and IMO MWPP are pranksters (I solemnly swear I am up to no good). I see Draco as more of the selfish type, rather than doing something for the humour of others, and I suppose that he would only be humourous to suit his own ends... but then I can't argue that MWPP DON'T do it for themselves... hmmm > 3) Hagrid said that every bad wizard was from Slytherin at a time > when he thought that Sirius was an evil wizard coupled with >comments >in the Lexicon on why James, Sirius, Lupin were in the same house. >Sirius would be a likely candidate for Slytherin given the existing > family trends to be in the same house. Black was willing to send > Snape to be bitten by Lupin as a teenager. This does not seem >like >a Gryffindor trait. I would have thought that Hagrid meant every MAJOR bad wizard, eg, Voldy, and the presumably countless others who have played menace to the WW. Plus there is bound to be at least ONE exception to this. And, if James was in Slyth, then why would Hagrid, who appears to think nothing but highly of James, warn Harry against Slytherin. As Sirius himself states, Snape was an exception, and we've still to learn the source of MWPP's hatred of him. Also, as someone (Ahr I think) has said, the Patil sisters show that family trends aren't neccessarily anything to go by. Also, we know that Sirius hated his family, so wouldn't he go AGAINST his family trends? > 4) Harry might have been sorted into Gryffindor or Slytherin. This > makes more sense with one parent in each. As I've already said, family doesn't seem t be influencial on house, except in Malfoys case, where he feels it is his only choice (duty, pride, traits, beleifs and prejudices which we believe he shares with his father????) and oppositely in Sirius's case, where he would presumabley feel it was not right to be in the same house as his family who he despised. > 5) There have been 5 books and J.K. has been very silent about what > houses they were in. ...hmmmm, maybe we are just over analysing this... Lupin's toasting to Gryffindor suggests he was also a gryf. > 6) James seems to be from a rich pureblood family. Same applies to Sirius. But James has no problem with Lily being muggle-born, or Lupin being half cast. Plus he sided against Voldy, and as his family have apparently been anihalated, then they most probably opposed him also. > 7) Lily and James refer to each other by their last names. If they > were both in Gryffindor together for 5 years then why so distant. > Everyone in Gryffindor always call each other by their first names. Hmmm.... interesting point... but then MWPP are not distant, and call each other nicknames- more intimate than first name's, so we would assume they were in the same house, plus the fact that they had such a close bond in school, and were good friends (undenialbly Wormtail was not the best friend) They kept the unregistered animagus and Moony's ailment secret. As I can see no reasons for any of MWPP (save W) not being in Gryff- and if W wasn't in gryff then why would the others ahng around with him?- IMO they had to include him as they were probably the only gryff boys in their yr, (in Harry's yr there are only 5). We are shown that there were plenty of people who admired MPP, W probably had nothing more to offer as friendship save that they would be around him a lot more if he was in the same house, therefore causing the friendship. Also, at this point, W may not have even had thought about the darkside. Maybe James calls Lily by her last name because she thinks so little of him during the 5th yr that she doesn't want to be on first name terms with him. Or that James wants to cause Lily to feel inferior to him, so that she would think that she was lucky to have his attachment to her, when he could have a whole lot of other girls. ... i never thought I would write such a long post... and as a consequence am thoroughly exhausted. evil_sushi From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Oct 27 20:47:14 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (Blair) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:47:14 -0000 Subject: twins first year beaters?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: > A point which I have always thought undisputed was that Fred and > George W were a year older than H/Hr/R et all. (Well, a yr above > them in schooling terms anyway). In PS/SS I took it to mean that > Harry was the youngest quidditch player in ages- a 1st yr. But, at > the beginning of PS/SS I'm pretty sure that R tells H that F/G were > beaters for the Gryf team 'last year'- wouldn't this be their 1st > yr, hence arguing that Harry was not the youngest quidditch player? > > I could see ways in which F and G could be 1st yr beaters whilst > Harry could still be the youngest, although this is talking a matter > of months, and we all know that Harry's b-day is in July, so that > doesn't leave much room for a large age-gap, and I would presume > that this age-gap would be much cause for celebration (eg. Harry is > the youngest in AGES) and so forth. > > OTOH Harry may be the youngest SEEKER- and the youngest of that > particular position. > > OR... I could have just confused myself a whole lot, and be speaking > (not litterally) utter nonsense... hmmm, the possibilies... > > evil_sushi Fred and George are *two* years older than HRH. In PS/SS they are 3rd years. They started on the team in their second year (which is still pretty young I suppose...) Oryomai From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Oct 27 20:56:11 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:56:11 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: > --- > As Snape does IMHO detest Harry, then this is no problem. But, if > Snape is passionate about DADA as he appears to be (applying how > many times??? she asks increduously), then maybe he would enjoy it > and beome.. well.... nice???? ok, not NICE, but maybe more > tolerable, as he would be working in something he perhaps... > enjoys???? June: So in fact we could expect to see a kinder and gentler Severus if only he were to get the job he's always wanted. And what we are seeing is simply the mammoth fourteen year strop of a man who's knocked back for the only thing he ever wanted to do? > > > >DADA is more glamorous, but perhaps Potions is more essential. I'l reiterate what I may well have said before, either here or somewhere else (or maybe someone else said it...) Snape's great and famous poetic opening lines are NOT the lines of someone who sees what he does as humdrum and workaday. Potions is subtle and rather sexy (well I certainly think so what with all that bewitching of the mind and ensnaring of the senses). DADA is wand waving. Boring. I think Snape knows he can out wand- wave anyone anyway and doesn't have to prove anything (and to those of you who are sniggering at the back over the wand waving thing - just get your filthy minds out of the gutter will you - I know who you are!) I think the repeated applications for the DADA post are a baffle. Deliberate and intended and maybe even part of an agreement between Snape and Dumbledore. I'm not saying that underneath the outer sulkpot, Snape is actually some happy chappy. No, but a reputation for malcontentedness never does any harm if you are trying to maintain an aura of untrustworthyness. It won't do Snape's cause any good if he's seen to be perfectly contented by either LV or anyone more overtly associated with him. But if he's apparently bearing a grudge at being passed over for the job he wants, then he's more likely to fit in either as a Death Eater or useful contact on the periphery. June Potion Master Supreme - sounds like a recipe to me. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Oct 27 21:01:10 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:01:10 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > How does the British WW relate to the British royal family? (snip) do withces and wizards owe any alleigence to the Queen? Any Brits on > the list willing to help a poor, befuddled American? > Meri Carolyn: Speaking from a nation bombarded with a week of tawdry new revelations as to what the butler saw, I hope, like the rest of us, they politely avert their eyes... Apart from grounds of taste, all the legislation referred to in the books, such as the Statute of Secrecy etc, seem to imply that the WW regards itself as a sovereign nation state in its own right. From grannybat at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 21:36:51 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:36:51 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83683 Pippin_999" debated: > >> I'm interested in what kind of >> social/ethical preparation Magicals give their children in regard >> to The Big Life Issues, and whether the apparent lack of formal >> instruction strays that far from the norms of British Muggle >> society. << > > I think the great divide is before and after the "sexual > revolution", and the introduction of The Pill, though judging by > the pregnancy statistics I think that there was probably as much > sexual activity going on among teens before as after... > only people wouldn't admit to it unless they "got caught". True. But birth control is a form of technology, and the Magical world has enjoyed a technological edge over the Muggle world at lest until the beginnings of the 20th century. One would hope that superior contraception and the ethics that go with it were part of that cultural advantage. This ties in with the issue that originally got me thinking about sexual ethics in the Magical world. I'll explain more below. > But if ethics were to be taught at Hogwarts, they would be the > ethics of a society that enslaves its domestic workers, turns its > criminals over to soul-sucking fiends, casually obliterates the > memories of hapless Muggles and publicly excoriates teenage > girls who have more than one boyfriend at a time. I can't blame > Dumbledore for not holding ethics classes under those > circumstances. I see the point you're making, but my argument is that this is exactly why Dumbledore NEEDS to institute classes on ethics. The Magical world is so comfortable--or so far in denial--regarding its immoral, institutionalized attitudes and practices that this society has to change or else it will keep devouring itself until it dissolves. What better place to start questioning an ingrained past than in school, where the future citizens are trained? Going back to the sexual aspect--it's always bothered me that Tom Riddle's mother died in the Muggle world the from complications of giving birth, AND her son was raised by a Muggle orphanage. Why didn't she return to the Magical world after being rejected by her child's father? She was a witch. She shouldn't have had to put up with the fate of a "fallen woman," begging for food and shelter, depending upon the charity of Muggle strangers, trusting the fate of her body and her baby to a non-magical (probably religious) institution, ultimately enduring a destiny typical of the deceived innocent in so many gothic novels. Why didn't she return to Magical society, where she could at least be certain that her baby would be brought up within a culture that would accept and encourage his abilities? Oh, I ***suppose*** the diehard romantics among us will say she stayed in the Muggle world for love of the baby's father. Pining, desperate, unrequited love. But that sounds awfully maudlin for JKR. Maybe she had no sanctuary even in the Magical world. In CoS Rowling kept hitting us over the head with the fact that Tom Riddle was the last heir of Slytherin; the implication is that all his mother's relatives were dead. (Why? Were they targeted for extermination by yet another, previous Dark Lord?) OK, so she didn't have any family left to take her in during her pregnancy. I believe that a society which care enough about its progeny to guarantee an education to every child "magic enough for Hogwarts"--even to those children unaware of their magical ability-- is a society that would shelter and care for an unwed mother and her baby. Harry never reports seeing Magical orphans begging on the streets of Diagon Alley or digging food from the dustbins behind the shops, and Dumbledore mentions that many Magical families would have been happy to take in toddler Harry after he'd been orphaned. Why not fosterage for a desperate, pregnant witch? If all the Slytherin clans reject her, surely some decent Hufflepuff family would take her in. Unless...unless... Unless the Magical world's attitude toward out-of-wedlock births is even more archaic and vicious than the Muggle world's. Unless the medieval mindset of genetic identity through officially sanctioned, socially recognized patrilineal descent is a taboo so strong that no Magical family dare cross it. Stonger than compassion or other convictions of principle. Stronger than philosophical and moral alliances against blood "purity." Why? Religion-based rationale doesn't work, not if JKR is excluding religion as a driving force in the Magical world. It can't be for reasons of blood purity; Tom Riddle was summoned by Hogwarts at age 11 without the slightest regard for the fact that his father was a Muggle. His magical ability was all that mattered (even before the days of Dumbledore's administration), not the absence of his parents' marriage license. Tom Riddle was also the last of his genetic line. Surely the other Slytherin dynasties would want to make certain the last heir to Salazar was raised in full awareness of his traditions. Surely they wouldn't allow the true Slytherin bloodline to die out just because it was mixed with Muggle blood... Or would they? Does blood prejudice run so deep that pureblood sympathizers are willing to commit dynastic suicide rather than admit a half-Muggle child to the fold? Are they so willing to throw away daughters who produce "half-breed" children? Would they really allow their own grandchildren to suffer malnutrition, child abuse, and possibly death during a childhood in what they must perceive is an uncivilized, primitive world?* Especially when they know the surviving children will be admitted to Hogwarts in spite of their upbringing. Are they hoping these children will simply, conveniently die? Preventing one's pureblood children from mixing with non-purebloods is one thing. But literally casting off your own progeny opens up another level of evil. Mrs. Black repudiated Sirius for his association with the Muggle- loving side in Vold War I; she burned her niece Andromeda off the family tree for marrying a Muggleborn wizard. Certainly she'd leave a half-Muggle grandchild to die. But the Blacks are extremists. Or are they? Is this another one of the dirty little secrets of the Magical world? That half-Muggle children are treated even worse than Muggleborns? I can't believe this is just another Flint. Seamus, after all, SINGLES HIMSELF OUT as a "half-n-half," the product of a witch who married a Muggle. So he's not a true Muggleborn like Hermione, but neither is he a true halfblood like Harry. Does this mean the pureblood fanatics might target him for something even more atrocious than the "ethnic cleansing" they plan to conduct? I've got a bad feeling about this.... Grannybat *Yes, Harry had to endure this, from his own Muggle relatives. But not every Magical child comes with a fatal prophecy attached. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 27 21:51:18 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:51:18 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A thought about PoA References: <1067164096.3910.91680.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000a01c39cd4$73c388a0$17e76151@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 83684 Geoff wondered: >This would, of course, have affected the plot line of the book, but >why didn't somebody pull out a wand and either use "Petrificus >Totalus" or "Stupefy" on Lupin to stop him? OK, it would have ruined >the next two books but it would seem to have been logical. Not an unreasonable question. But maybe it's as simple as saying that perhaps shapeshifting is a magical defence against both these spells. When Remus is transforming, he's not the same configuration from one moment to the next. Perhaps for the spells to work, one of the prerequisites is a person who's _un_changing... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From rayheuer3 at aol.com Mon Oct 27 22:49:23 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:49:23 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizards and the Queen Message-ID: <1cb.1339e79b.2ccefaf3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83685 meriaugust at yahoo.com writes: How does the British WW relate to the British royal family? Now, admitedly I am an American, so I am a little fuzzy on the details of how a constitutional monarchy works (and I am only pretty sure that that's even what the system is called). I am wondering because I also feel that this question relates to religion in the WW, as they (religion and the monarchy) are both authorities outside the MoM. So, do withces and wizards owe any alleigence to the Queen? We have seen a couple of occassions where Wizards refer to the "Muggle Prime Minister", which would indicate that they don't acknowledge his authority over them. But they do acknowledge the authority of the Minister of Magic, which would seem to indicate that they recognize the authority of the Queen. Then again, IMHO, in a world with Wizards and Witches, you probably don't get to be sovereign unless you have magical ability yourself. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From grannybat at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:49:39 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:49:39 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83686 Caipora replied to me: >>> Recall too the mandrakes, and their marks of maturation: acne, wild >>> parties, and finally moving into each other's pots. Surely there > >> aren't two ways for an adult to read that > > >>Well, yes, but the mandrakes are bit players rather than main >> characters. And their ultimate destiny is to be sliced, diced, and >> pureed into a restorative draught; hardly an encouraging omen for >> teens interested in learning about sex. > > This thread started off on the topic of ethics. The treatment of > the mandrakes, who are anthropormorphized and then pur?ed, is one > of the ethically most troubling incidents in the books. True. Animals and anthropormorphized plants don't fare well in the Magical world. (Well, the Whomping Willow can hold its own, and it does receive some medical care from Professor Sprout after the flying car crashes into it. And the kittens on which they practice vanishing spells don't seem to be harmed when they vanished, if Ron's wriggling mouse tail is any indication.) I felt particularly sorry for the hedgehogs transformed into pincushions in McGonagal's class. Maybe that's why Snape is never mentioned as having a pet: He's used to regarding animals as a raw potion ingredients. I take this attitude as a further extension of the Magical world's attitude toward "inferior" beings: Even if they are fully magical, they're not fully human, and therefore they are lesser creatures, to be used for whatever purposes Magicals see fit. > > (Still, I can't help waiting for Malfoy to make some homophobic > > crack about Harry and Ron's friendship. > > Dudley makes such a crack at the start of OotP, regarding Harry's > saying Cedric's name in his nightmares, so it's not beyond > Rowling's reach. I caught that, yes. But Harry was already so angry at the mere mention of the graveyard incident?and so fearful of what he might have let slip while yelling in his sleep?that the full impact of the jab went right by him. > One of the most puzzling aspects of romance if not sex in Rowling > is Hermione's cool explanations of how girls behave in OotP. Her > demeanor has an air of "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" but > her only romantic relationship we know of is with Viktor, and that > seem largely epistolary. How does she know so well how other girls > behave? I was particularly irritated by the passage in which she explains Cho's convoluted feelings to Harry after the Valentine's Day fiasco. Since when did superbrain Hermoine turn into a touchy-feely armchair psychologist? Oh, no, JKR has succumbed to Counselor Troi Syndrome: What's the real purpose of this female character? Why, to explain the boys' feelings to them! Next thing we know, Hermione will be subscribing to the Oprah Book Club? Aha. Books. She's quoting from self-help books she's absorbed for light reading. Books on romantic relationships so she can deal with Viktor. Books on male adolescents acting out stress, because her best friend Harry is under so much pressure. Books on "Boys Who Love Quidditch and the Witches Who Love Them." She picks up the messy details from what she observes in the girls' dormitories, and she makes sense of it all through books. I still don't like reading that passage, but now I can give her a rationale that's in character. ;) Grannybat PS - Thank you for the link to Tobermory. Quite amusing. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 00:01:35 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:01:35 -0000 Subject: Albus Percival Brian Wulfric Dumbldore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Mary Jo wrote: >> Percival makes me think of Percival Blakeney, the hero of Baroness >> Orczy's "Scarlet Pimpernel" series. Sir Percy was the leader of a >> league of Englishmen who ran daring missions into revolutionary >> France to save innocent aristocrats from the guillotine. Dunno if >> JKR had that in mind at all, but in any case it's a name that >> suggests both heroic bravery and pure goodness. > > It's only just made me realise that we have Percy Mk.1 and Percy > Mk.2 in the books but somewhat different models? > Geoff Richard here: I'm more reminded of Percival, the Knight of the Round Table who completed the quest for the Grail. Considering the importance of the Legend of Arthur, the Quest for the Grail, etc., I find it hard to believe that this is NOT in some sense part of the reason behind the use of this name for Dumbledore, and the diminutive for Percy Weasley. To me, this seems likely to be a hint of something that Percy will do 'ere the end of the series, and perhaps that he will survive the tale, as did Percival. Richard From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 00:15:15 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:15:15 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > 12) Why does JKR make the point that Snape never eats at the house? Laura: This question raised in my head the extremely unlikely image of our dear Sevvie joining his beloved friends in the Order at the family table. Yeah, right. Can you see Snape consenting to take a meal with the likes of Mundungus and Tonks? That is, assuming he could get past the idea of sharing quality time with Remus and Sirius. Snape probably thinks that Molly is an airhead and Arthur is a wuss. And he and Mad-Eye have a little history too. I assume JKR put that little detail in to continue to raise doubts about Snape's true loyalty to the Order and to further illustrate his elusive charm. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 28 01:32:45 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:32:45 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83689 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > > > 12) Why does JKR make the point that Snape never eats at the house? > > Laura: > I assume JKR put that little detail in to continue to raise doubts > about Snape's true loyalty to the Order and to further illustrate > his elusive charm. Or to offer us "Snape's a vampire" theorists yet another clue. JKR has said that the Hogwarts House Elves can accommodate special diets, but possibly Molly isn't that creative. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/070 0-swns-alfie.htm Pippin From suzie_t666 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 02:01:05 2003 From: suzie_t666 at hotmail.com (Paul Smith) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:01:05 -0000 Subject: Read exciting prophecy theory! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83690 Hey everyone, Thanks for the replies I got, I just thought I'd expand a tiny bit more and remind anyone who missed it of the main bits. > Just been looking through the FAQs for OotP and a thought occured to me when looking at the ones concerned with the prophecy. Are we > being lured by JKR into thinking Trelawny's first prediction is more important than it actually is? > > Consider Trelawny's second prediction in POA. In contrast to how her first prediction appears, it is relatively short-term. Apart from the "greater and more terrible than ever before" part, the prediction is concerned with the events that take place later that night. > What if, contrary to popular belief, the events of the first > prediction have already happened? If the second prediction was so > short-term, I find it entirely plausible, given the necessary > interpretation, that the first prediction has the same properties. > > Here's how I see ambiguous discrepencies in the first prediction, by looking at the meaning of certain words. > > vanquish > verb > to defeat an opponent, especially in war: (taken from the Cambridge > Advanced Learners Dictionary) > > If Harry had the power to defeat his opponent (especially in war), > then he has already done it. Voldemort was comprehensively defeated > at Godric's Hollow, and it took him 14 years and the help of a > servant to be able to reply. > > The fact that one of them has to die is trickier, but Voldemort was > *hit* by an Avada Kedavra, and so in theory did die. His spirit left > his body as in death (I wonder what happened to that original body), > but his spirit, through whatever spell or transformation Voldemort > had managed, stayed in this world, rather than going on to the next. > ...my mind wanders again to whatever Wormtail has been up to, and the > possibility that Trelawny has made a third prediction to someone off-stage. Perhaps it's been a little too convenient that her two > previous predictions were made in the presence of Dumbledore and > Harry. Can she control when they happen, and in front of whom? I just thought I'd add that I don't really like the idea of Trelawny making another prediction, and that I hope she doesn't. I'd like to think an enduring message from the series is that fate is in our own hands at the end of the day. It'd be nice for Harry to not *have* to kill (again!), and it would be nicer if the realisation that his future is his to determine made him happy. Nice bit of relief from all that angst. Anyone else? Has the first prophecy already happened? Has it not? Someone put me in my place, that way I might be able to develop it a bit further. Love flavoured Beans for all, Suze xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From andie at knownet.net Tue Oct 28 03:03:19 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (Andrea M. Emerick) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:03:19 -0500 Subject: Change of Email Address Message-ID: <003d01c39d00$44e31740$7ae7fea9@andie> No: HPFGUIDX 83691 Just to let everyone know, my internet provider is being bought out, so my address will be changing soon. As of right now, it is still the same, so continue to email me as usual! :) (I do believe they will be forwarding emails for a period of time as well after the switch is made.) At this time, I do NOT know what my new address will be, but I will email you as soon as I find out! Thanks! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 03:55:53 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:55:53 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83692 grannybat84112 replied to me: > And the kittens on which they practice vanishing spells don't > seem to be harmed when they vanished, if Ron's wriggling > mouse tail is any indication.) I felt particularly sorry for the > hedgehogs transformed into pincushions in McGonagal's class. > > I take this attitude as a further extension of the Magical world's > attitude toward "inferior" beings: Even if they are fully magical, > they're not fully human, and therefore they are lesser creatures, > to be used for whatever purposes Magicals see fit. When I was in junior high schools we dissected frogs. They were dead of course, but they were killed (and raised) so that we could dissect them. Surely the ethical questions that raises are more serious than temporary pincussionhood. And yet we dissected them. Maybe kids don't dissects frogs any more. I've heard they now wear bathing suits in swimming class. Things change. grannybat84112 said elsewhere, but on this topic: > [M]y argument is that this is exactly why Dumbledore > NEEDS to institute classes on ethics. The Magical world > is so comfortable--or so far in denial--regarding its > immoral, institutionalized attitudes and practices that > this society has to change or else it will keep devouring > itself until it dissolves. What better place to start > questioning an ingrained past than in school, > where the future citizens are trained? Ethical lessons are more easily taught in terms of distant circumstances. A child who questions how house elves are treated may grow up to be puzzled at how free trade can be argued when it helps US exports, but protectionism practiced to keep out Third World steel or agricultural products. When I was in elementary school, we were taught about the Four Basic Food groups: meat, dairy, grain, and fruit & vegetable. A college friend who moved from China confessed he was puzzled by the inclusion of "dairy", which seemed less basic. As an adult, I know why it was there: not because of its importance to nutrition but because of the importance of the American Dairy Association to Congressional campaign finance. Rowling has complete liberty to portray injustice in the wizarding world. She's stepping on nobody's toes. But children who read her books may learn lessons, and apply them later to the real world. We can hope so, at least. Suppose a real-world Secretary of Education (for that is Dumbledore's role) encouraged students to calculate the cost of dairy subsidies, or to study the basis in ethics and law of the American occupation of Iraq, or to ask what the effect would be on the Unitied States of the imposition of a budget-balancing scheme such as the World Bank imposes on other countries. He would, excuse my language, be out on his ass in an instant. There must be questions in the wizarding world which Dumbledore must treat with delicacy. That statue in the Ministry of Magic symbolized an attitude cast in stone. Perhaps in the midst of VWII, if all stands in the balance, Dumbledore can do things he could not do in ordinary times. He's had a lot of trouble on the simple issue of whether Voldemort had returned. Few societies truly crave an informed and ethically questioning citizenry. Athens was exceptionally enlightened, and look what happened to Socrates. > > Dudley makes such a crack at the start of OotP, regarding Harry's > > saying Cedric's name in his nightmares, so it's not beyond > > Rowling's reach. > > I caught that, yes. But Harry was already so angry at the mere > mention of the graveyard incident?and so fearful of what he might > have let slip while yelling in his sleep?that the full impact of > the jab went right by him. However puzzling teenage girls may be to me, I was once a teenage boy, and this is just a generic insult. It's flung with wild abandon. I may have been wrong to put Dudley's random insult in the same class as a deliberate and measured insinuation that Ron and Harry had found their own answer to underheated dorm rooms. > Next thing we know, Hermione will be subscribing to the > Oprah Book Club? > > Aha. Books. > > She's quoting from self-help books she's absorbed for light > reading. Books on romantic relationships so she can > deal with Viktor. Books on male adolescents acting out stress, > because her best friend Harry is under so much pressure. > Books on "Boys Who Love Quidditch and the Witches Who Love Them." > She picks up the messy details from what she > observes in the girls' dormitories, and she makes sense of it all > through books. > > I still don't like reading that passage, but now I can give her a > rationale that's in character. ;) I like your explanation. If it's that easy to explain, why do girls bother? Why not just come out and say what they mean? Is there a door in the Department of Mysteries which explains girls? Grannybat said: > PS - Thank you for the link to Tobermory. Quite amusing. I can remain on topic and recommend Saki's portrait of a teenage werewolf, "Gabriel-Ernest": http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/772/ I will also recommend what may be his finest story, "The Unrest Cure". If you examine the link, there's an occult number in it so it's not off-topic [cough]: http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/666/ - Caipora From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Oct 28 05:41:59 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:41:59 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Neyer" > wrote: > > Perhaps it is because he cannot be replaced as Potions Master and > >for some reason, as yet to be revealed, it is vital for the > >survival of DD's "army" to have mastered certain potions. We know > >that Snape is very skilled with potions, because only he is able to > >make the potion for Lupin. > > E.S- This seems quite plausible, although it appears Snape is not > such a marvellous Prof. at this, and I would assume that some of the > students do not gain their full potential at potions-eg. Neville, > because of Snape's offensive/unfriendly etc disposition. But then if > Potions Masters were so rare I supose this character defect could be > overlooked... > Also, keep this in mind: Not only does Snape have to know all the potions he teaches, he needs to know all the possible results of a botched potion and be ready with counters for the more dangerous ones. Think of the shear amount of knowledge you would have to have for this. I could easily see potions masters that are able to teach as being rare. I can also see how students like Neville could lead to a nervous breakdown. Add to that being a double agent, and I have to wonder how much of the way he acts is due to stress... -- Arcum From mario.pitre at videotron.ca Tue Oct 28 01:21:46 2003 From: mario.pitre at videotron.ca (oiramertip) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:21:46 -0000 Subject: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83694 > Tanya wrote : My thought of everything becoming what is should have been...my thought was with Vold.'s death is also the death of all his evil...as if everything was a dream. Imagine Harry defeating Voldemort...then walking outside the room only to find his mother and father reading the Daily Prophet at the table, waiting for Sirius to show up for dinner. A great twist ending. Sounds right in my head, but might not in this post. Mario: I am sorry but I don't buy that. It is a little too much "Back to the future" for me. Why not say that, at the end of book 7, Harry wakes up from a 7-year coma, after being beaten up by Dudley 7 years earlier? It was all a dream.... That would be the biggest disapointement ever for me. From mookie1552 at aol.com Tue Oct 28 02:06:04 2003 From: mookie1552 at aol.com (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:06:04 -0000 Subject: Speaking up for Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83695 I agree with oiboyz in the fact that Dudley is not a wizard, because I agree that Dumbledore would not deny any magical person their birthright. Although, what I could see had happened is that Petunia is a squib. Look how bitter it has made Filtch. Being denied what her sister had could have made her hate what she really wanted the most. Petunia hates her sister and hates magic why? Because she was denied it, she could never be like her sister and never would have the ablities of her sister. Who is older? Petunia or Lily? Have we ever found out? If Petunia is older and her parents had a squib, no wonder in Petunia's mind that her parents were proud to have a witch in the family because they didn't with her. She is jealous through and through. From mookie1552 at aol.com Tue Oct 28 02:23:40 2003 From: mookie1552 at aol.com (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:23:40 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83696 I have to comment on the post, sorry no snip, that mentioned Snape as a vampire...hmm interesting stuff. That would definately be a curve JKR supreme. Has Snape ever been mentioned outside during daylight...not that I can remember. This would be a cool revilation but he does not follow all vampire laws, i.e. Ann Rice vampires. 1. he does not heal in seconds, we know this from the bite from Fluffy on his leg. 2. he does not have fangs, I think this would have been commented on in one of the books 3. he seems not to be very old, in vampire standards but, he does not have to follow the laws set down by vampire lore. So it is okay to make the guess that he is a vampire. It would explain a lot and add a lot to his personality. Snape has very good senses. He seems to be able to sense when Harry is lurking about in the invisiblity cloak. Snape is dark and pasty, not a sun lover. How do you know if that some of the hatred between Snape and James stems back to the fact that Snape got bitten instead of James. Who knows? I'm just putting it out there. From mookie1552 at aol.com Tue Oct 28 02:45:14 2003 From: mookie1552 at aol.com (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:45:14 -0000 Subject: HP/LV related? (was: Dobby revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83697 Okay, I'm just throwing this out there for you to mull over in your minds. What if LV and the Potters and Evans were related? Maybe the reason that LV went after them on that dreadful night is to get rid of the people of his family. Maybe somehow members of your own family possess the power to defeat you, maybe that is why Harry lived. Blood is thicker than water remember, maybe magic is stronger in one's family? LV was going after anyone that could stop him, we know that Lily and James were fighting him and I'm sure he would want to get them more if it was his own family trying to stop him. We know that LV killed family members in the past (gof) that got in his way, why should this be any different? Maybe little Harry might take after his uncle Voldy a little more than LV would have liked! Jen From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 03:45:08 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:45:08 -0000 Subject: Interviews, James - Seeker or Chaser? (was Re: James/MWPP in Slytherin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcyasser" wrote: > --- > > Pip!Squeak: > > > > Further, Sirius asks James where he got the Snitch, and James > says he nicked it. If James were his teams *Seeker* he would have no > need to nick the Snitch. He could ask to borrow it for some extra > practice. But if he's *not* the Seeker, he has no legitimate reason > to have that Snitch, and would have to nick it rather than borrow it. > > > I agree that he was a seeker. I think I'm right in saying JKR said he was a chaser in an interview? Well, I also think I'm right in saying she said this OVER a year ago? (I haven't read the interview, it might have four years ago... i can't seem to find it) I have a small idea of what it's like to write a story, and while you write it (or just plan it out) ideas zoom around your head so fast that you can barely write them down. I also know that it is VERY common for plans to change. As JKR said, herself, while writing GoF, her plan fell apart, and she had to rework it. Authors DO change their minds. I'm sure when she said that James was a chaser, her idea was that James Potter was a pretty popular guy who played quidditch. Later on, she probably got a little more specific in her ideas... and wished she hadn't said he was a chaser. And plus, it's much cooler thinking that Harry played the same position as his dad did. From nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 03:54:17 2003 From: nkittyhawk97 at yahoo.com (nkittyhawk97) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:54:17 -0000 Subject: twins first year beaters?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: > A point which I have always thought undisputed was that Fred and > George W were a year older than H/Hr/R et all. (Well, a yr above > them in schooling terms anyway). In PS/SS I took it to mean that > Harry was the youngest quidditch player in ages- a 1st yr. But, at > the beginning of PS/SS I'm pretty sure that R tells H that F/G were > beaters for the Gryf team 'last year'- wouldn't this be their 1st > yr, hence arguing that Harry was not the youngest quidditch player? nkittyhawk: Um... I was under the impression Fred and George were TWO years older than Harry. When the trio are in their 3rd year, the twins are taking their OWLs which are in your FIFTH year, making them two years older. So in fact, they were in their second year when they started playing, seeing as they would be in their third year in the first book. ~~nkittyhawk From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Oct 27 23:04:54 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:04:54 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: > Grannybat: > Going back to the sexual aspect--it's always bothered me that Tom > Riddle's mother died in the Muggle world the from complications of > giving birth, AND her son was raised by a Muggle orphanage. Why > didn't she return to the Magical world after being rejected by her > child's father? She was a witch. She shouldn't have had to put up > with the fate of a "fallen woman," begging for food and shelter, > depending upon the charity of Muggle strangers, trusting the fate of > her body and her baby to a non-magical (probably religious) > institution, ultimately enduring a destiny typical of the deceived > innocent in so many gothic novels. Why didn't she return to Magical > society, where she could at least be certain that her baby would be > brought up within a culture that would accept and encourage his > abilities? > > > Unless...unless... > > Unless the Magical world's attitude toward out-of-wedlock births is > even more archaic and vicious than the Muggle world's. Unless the > medieval mindset of genetic identity through officially sanctioned, > socially recognized patrilineal descent is a taboo so strong that no > Magical family dare cross it. Stonger than compassion or other > convictions of principle. Stronger than philosophical and moral > alliances against blood "purity." > Geoff: Perhaps I should point out that your argument is not upheld by evidence in canon: "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, common, Muggle who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231) Geoff From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 07:19:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:19:52 -0000 Subject: tTuchy-Feely Armchair Psychologist (was: No Sex...We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: > Caipora replied to me: > > ...edited... > > One of the most puzzling aspects of romance if not sex in Rowling > > is Hermione's cool explanations of how girls behave in OotP. Her > > demeanor has an air of "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" > > but her only romantic relationship we know of is with Viktor, and > > that seem largely epistolary. How does she know so well how other > > girls behave? > > I was particularly irritated by the passage in which she explains > Cho's convoluted feelings to Harry after the Valentine's Day fiasco. > Since when did superbrain Hermoine turn into a touchy-feely armchair > psychologist? > > ...edited... > > Grannybat bboy_mn: This particular insightful aspect of Hermione seems to irritate a few people, although I don't understand why. Isn't what Hermione said about Harry's date with Cho pretty much what you were thinking when you read it? Wasn't it obvious that Harry was clueless, and wasn't it obvious what Cho's motivations and feelings were? I'm a guy and even I could tell what was going on, so when Hermione was explaining it to Harry and Ron, I was right there with her saying 'too right you are', and laughing at how oblivious boys are. I really think JKR got all aspects of this 'boy/girl stuff' right on the money on all fronts. And I thought that Hermione's insight was very believable for an intelligent, although admittedly inexperienced, girl. I think Hermione's insight is based in the principle that guides most problem solving of this personal nature; it much much easier to understand and solve other people's problems than it is to solve your own. That's why going to a councilor or psychologist works. The pschologist can understand and solve your problems because, he/she doesn't have any personal involvement or emotional attachements to cloud his/her judgement. It's the same with Hermione, it's very very easy for her to understand the relationship between Harry and Cho because she views it from the outside. In the same vein, as readers, we also understood the dynamics of the date with Cho, because we viewed the event as detached outside observers. But at the same time, because Hermione is very much on the 'inside' of her relationship with Ron, Hermione and Ron are both clueless and at a loss for how to deal with that particular problem. Although, I admit that Ron is far more clueless in that area than Hermione is. Conclusion, I see Hermione's insight as very likely and very believable, and not the least bit irritating. Just a thought. bboy_mn From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 28 08:18:37 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:18:37 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" wrote: > I have to comment on the post, sorry no snip, that mentioned Snape as > a vampire...hmm interesting stuff. That would definately be a curve > JKR supreme. Has Snape ever been mentioned outside during > daylight...not that I can remember. This would be a cool revilation Refereeing the odd Quidditch game, spectating the odd Quidditch game... and throughout NOT shrouded in black cloth, a hat and sunglasses.... Wandering to the lake after his DADA paper... > but he does not follow all vampire laws, i.e. Ann Rice vampires. People should not necessarily take what Ann Rice wrote as standard Vampire canon. Witness Louis' very witty comment about crosses in "Interview with the Vampire" - "Nonsense, I can look upon anything I like, and I happen to be particularly fond of crosses" my point here is that Ann Rice messed around with a good many of the vampire conventions. > > 1. he does not heal in seconds, we know this from the bite from > Fluffy on his leg. > 2. he does not have fangs, I think this would have been commented on > in one of the books > 3. he seems not to be very old, in vampire standards > > but, he does not have to follow the laws set down by vampire lore. > So it is okay to make the guess that he is a vampire. It would > explain a lot and add a lot to his personality. Snape has very good > senses. He seems to be able to sense when Harry is lurking about in > the invisiblity cloak. Snape is dark and pasty, not a sun lover. > How do you know if that some of the hatred between Snape and James > stems back to the fact that Snape got bitten instead of James. Who > knows? I'm just putting it out there. Joining the rest of the staff for Christmas dinner, dining in the Great Hall... I think someone might have mentioned the fact that he never ate or drank a thing is it were so - just a thought. Why has not a single student uttered in earshot their suspicions that he is a vampire? Perhaps because no one suspects it apart from a few readers. June From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 09:50:12 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:50:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speaking up for Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031028095012.59592.qmail@web20706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83703 oiboyz wrote: That's an interesting theory, and I think it fits Petunia's and Dudley's personalities very well (not to mention that it would be too cool if Dudley turned out to be a wizard too...) My reply: Just a very random thought that just hit me but does anyone else think there is something very interesting in the constant Dudley spoiling. I mean they are always trying to make him happy, always giving in, never letting him through a fit on his own. Could it be that they are trying to prevent some accidental magic? ~Melanie, who is positive there is something in Dudley's past. We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 10:59:59 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:59:59 -0000 Subject: twins first year beaters?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evil_sushi2003" wrote: > A point which I have always thought undisputed was that Fred and > George W were a year older than H/Hr/R et all. (Well, a yr above > them in schooling terms anyway). In PS/SS I took it to mean that > Harry was the youngest quidditch player in ages- a 1st yr. But, at > the beginning of PS/SS I'm pretty sure that R tells H that F/G were > beaters for the Gryf team 'last year'- wouldn't this be their 1st > yr, hence arguing that Harry was not the youngest quidditch player? > > I could see ways in which F and G could be 1st yr beaters whilst > Harry could still be the youngest, although this is talking a matter > of months, and we all know that Harry's b-day is in July, so that > doesn't leave much room for a large age-gap, and I would presume > that this age-gap would be much cause for celebration (eg. Harry is > the youngest in AGES) and so forth. > > OTOH Harry may be the youngest SEEKER- and the youngest of that > particular position. > > OR... I could have just confused myself a whole lot, and be speaking > (not litterally) utter nonsense... hmmm, the possibilies... > > evil_sushi Gred and Forge are two years ahead of Harry and Ron. In OotP, they are in their final year at Hogwarts. Harry and Ron are in their fifth year. Hope that helps clear up the confusion. D From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 12:16:25 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:16:25 -0000 Subject: Patriotism in the WW? In-Reply-To: <004201c39c6f$e06627c0$8a59d718@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melissa McCarthy wrote: > So, is there patriotism at all in the WW? Is an individual's first loyalty to his/her country as against other countries; does he see him/herself first as a subject or citizen of his/her country and then as a wizard/witch? In GoF Chap. 7 Harry sees some wizards flying the flags of their respective nations: "American witches sat gossipin happily beneath a spangled banner..." (p.82 American edition), and on the next page sees "the Bulgarian flag - white, green and red - fluttering in the breeze." Harry later reflects on the many different "nationalities" he met while tramping about the campgrounds - although there is no other mention of flags, I think it can be safely inferred that he probably saw a number of others. - CMC From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Oct 28 12:51:16 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:51:16 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > On the mechanics of Dobby being freed, however, > I'm disappointed that you haven't addressed the > most direct canon we have on the mechanism, > namely Dobby's statement to Harry (which I > paraphrased, #83507, and Annemehr quoted, #83492) > that "The family is careful not to pass Dobby > even a sock, sir, for then he would be free to > leave their house forever." > A bit of indirect evidence (maybe). Dobby certainly has the use of the iron. He says that the Malfoys make him iron his hands. It's a fair bet that he irons the family clothes - why else have an Elf if not to do the household chores, including washing and ironing? You don't keep a dog and bark yourself. I certainly can't see Narcissa rubbing out her smalls in the kitchen sink. Note that Lucius doesn't 'pass' or 'hand' Dobby the sock anyway, he just throws it aside. If this constitutes presenting clothes, the home life of the Malfoys would be fraught with pitfalls. Search the bedroom before undressing in case Dobby leaps out from under the bed and makes a dive to catch underwear before it hits the ground? I can't see it somehow. I suspect Dobby was indulging in hyperbole, just as he was when he called Harry a 'great wizard'. Kneasy From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Oct 28 13:00:06 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:00:06 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" Search the > bedroom before undressing in case Dobby leaps out from under > the bed and makes a dive to catch underwear before it hits the ground? > I can't see it somehow. >> Kneasy Given the state of my teenage daughter's bedroom I now understand where the house elf has gone and why I have to do the ironing. June From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 13:14:48 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:14:48 -0000 Subject: tTuchy-Feely Armchair Psychologist (was: No Sex...We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Caipora > > > One of the most puzzling aspects of romance if not sex in Rowling is Hermione's cool explanations of how girls behave in OotP. How does she know so well how other girls behave? > > bboy_mn: > > This particular insightful aspect of Hermione seems to irritate a few people, although I don't understand why. > > Isn't what Hermione said about Harry's date with Cho pretty much what you were thinking when you read it? > > Wasn't it obvious that Harry was clueless, and wasn't it obvious what Cho's motivations and feelings were? > > I'm a guy and even I could tell what was going on, so when Hermione > was explaining it to Harry and Ron, I was right there with her saying 'too right you are', and laughing at how oblivious boys are. Laura: I wonder if part of the problem with Harry and Ron is that they haven't been brought up with girls. Ron has a younger sister, but he'd be much more heavily influenced by his 5 older brothers. Ginny is just starting to come into her own in OoP. And of course Harry didn't grow up with a sister at all. Molly and Petunia would fall into the category of "grownup" rather than "girl", so observing them wouldn't be much help in understanding boy/girl relations. At Hogwarts it looks like the boys and girls don't socialize much in their early years, so just the proximity of girls the same age as they are doesn't help. It's a learning process, and a painful one (although it does have its funny aspects) at that. I thought Hermione's analysis was right on. I've been observing the development of cross-gender relationships for a while now, as our kids are progressing through their teens, and the whole situation in GoF with the Yule Ball and OoP with Cho and Harry seemed absolutely realistic to me. Boys and girls in their mid-teens are beginning to discover that there is a yawning chasm between them in terms of how they see and understand the world. And it's very puzzling to them- they truly can't grasp what's going on in the other gender's mind. (I think girls figure it out earlier, or at least figure out how to deal with it.) Let's face it, if you don't understand the premises, you're not going to understand the results. Ron and Harry are lucky to have a patient and articulate guide to help them as they venture into the unknown world of relationships. Laura, who hopes she's gotten the attributions right in this post and apologizes in advance if she screwed up From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 13:37:56 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:37:56 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83709 Does any one knows where Percy got Scabbers? If he was his pet before, he must have got Scabbers somehow, didn't he know, the humungous bighead, that it was "a common garden mouse", or was he in allegiance with the Dark Side all along, the traitorous wizard. Pets don't just appear out of nowhere, except cats, that is. But there is a mouse in my bed, I just keep it there? I don't think so. So, how did Scabbers become a pet, from a filthy pest? Nineve From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 14:04:19 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:04:19 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83710 "Matt" wrote: > I believe the idea that Harry could be related to > the Malfoys (specifically, on Lucius' side) has > been mentioned before as a possible reason for > Dobby's ability to visit him (although not before > in connection with freeing Dobby). I have trouble > believing such a relationship, given the strong > emphasis JKR has placed on differences in physical > appearance between, e.g., Harry and Draco (or, > correspondingly, James and Lucius). It would, > though, have the rabbit-out-of-a-hat character of > some of JKR's revelations. But when it comes to Lily and Petunia, JKR always makes a point of showing us how physically different they are... So in that light it's not impossible that James and Lucius would be somehow related. Del From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Oct 28 14:24:32 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:24:32 -0000 Subject: Fidelius (Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Chapter summary. > > Moody prevents Harry asking about the Order in public, before magically > igniting the parchment. > > Number 12 is invisible to Harry until he follows Lupin's instructions to > think about what he just memorised. Lupin magically opens the door and the group > enter. > >5) Is any light thrown on the workings of the Fidelius Charm, by >which Number Twelve seems to be protected? Jen: Now that you mention it...This does gives us more information on the Fidelius. It also reminds me of the Room of Requirement due to the similar mechanism of "imagining" a location into existence. Well and once again, we see the ability in the WW to use more space than the Muggle World appears to notice or use, like the WW is operating on the same plane of existence but is able to incorporate almost another dimension. Back to the Fidelius. So the Secret Keeper can give the location verbally or in writing, which underscores again how a secret is only as safe as the secret keeper! Harry could easily have stuck the bit of parchment in his pocket and lost it, if Moody didn't have a paranoid streak and immediately ignited the parchment. Here's one part I didn't get: All the others were members of the Order--could they already see 12 Grimmauld upon arrival and only Harry had to think about what he memorized, or do you have to go through this process again each time you try to find the location? If it's similar to the Room of Requirement, you would have to re- imagine it each time. Seeing the Fidelius in action tells me that charm alone would be unlikely to safeguard the Potters at Godric's Hollow. If a Secret Keeper can give the location verbally, in writing, possibly someone could even extract the information with veritaserum or through Legilimens....the information isn't that protected. I always pictured the information as somehow being locked inside a person and there was a convoluted way to extract it, but Dumbledore has obviously informed many people of Grimmauld Place, so it's not that extensive of a process. And once you know the "secret" you can go back over and over to the location without having to be informed again by the Secret Keeper. I always pictured it as the secret being wiped from your mind once you left the location, but the Order obviously knows exactly where to go with Harry. Any other thoughts? From lawtrainer at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 15:14:59 2003 From: lawtrainer at yahoo.com (Jana Fisher) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:14:59 -0000 Subject: tTuchy-Feely Armchair Psychologist (was: No Sex...We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83712 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" > wrote: SNIPPED: > > > is Hermione's cool explanations of how girls behave in OotP. Her demeanor has an air of "been there, done that, got the T-shirt" but her only romantic relationship we know of is with Viktor, and that seem largely epistolary. Since when did superbrain Hermoine turn into a touchy-feely armchair psychologist? > > Grannybat > bboy_mn said: SNIPPED: > This particular insightful aspect of Hermione seems to irritate a few > people, although I don't understand why. Now Me, Jana: This reminds me of an interview I watched with JKR and the screenplay writer on disc two of Chamber of Secrets where she states that if she wants the reader to know anything she uses Hermione as her introduction character. She has purposely introduced information to us by Hermione saying I read about it in Hogwarts, A History [paraphrasing] etc. I think this is another example of that, for the younger generation of male readers that are not as experienced in the feelings of the female population. Jana From abigailnus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 15:56:31 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:56:31 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83713 Eloise: > > 12) Why does JKR make the point that Snape never eats at the > house? > > Laura: > > This question raised in my head the extremely unlikely image of our > dear Sevvie joining his beloved friends in the Order at the family > table. Yeah, right. Can you see Snape consenting to take a meal > with the likes of Mundungus and Tonks? That is, assuming he could > get past the idea of sharing quality time with Remus and Sirius. I think the fact that Snape refuses to break bread with the people with whom he's fighting is an extremely sad commentary on the state of the OOP. The order seems to spend as much time dealing with infighting and bruised feelings as with the business of saving the world. There's other evidence of strife within the order - Arabella and Molly's dislike and exasperation with Mundungus, Molly and Sirius' quarrels, and Harry and Sirius' growing dissatisfaction with Dumbledore. The order is not operating as a cohesive unit, and I think Dumbledore is to blame. I've mentioned before that I think very little of Dumbledore the leader, and I think he fails particularly in his leadership of the OOP. Admittedly, we don't see Dumbledore leading the order because Harry is hardly exposed to him during OOP, but we see what happens behind the screen, when Dumbledore isn't looking, and what we see is a lot of grumbling. Dumbledore seems to believe that he can demand that his soldiers be better people then they are, and they will automatically snap to attenion - he forgets, for example, that Sirius and Snape's feud won't be put to rest because of his say-so. If he's not careful, Dumbledore may lead his army into battle only to discover that no one has followed him. I think that learning to work as a team is an important theme in OOP. Harry learns that he won't survive by always going it alone, and in fact it might be argued that his insistence to bear his crosses alone helps to bring about Sirius' death - he refuses to study Occlumency and to use the mirror Sirius gives him. I'm not sure that the adult members of the order have learned this lesson (indeed, I'm not sure that Harry has either). Instead of pooling their information and working as a team, which might have helped to keep Harry out of danger, discover the traitor, and save Sirius' life, Snape and Sirius continue to bicker, and leave Dumbledore to clean up their mess. Getting back to Snape, while I doubt much good would have been done had Dumbledore ordered him to take meals with the order, it might have been helpful for him to point out to Severus that he is currenly spending more quality time with people he purports to hate then with his supposed allies. Abigail From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 28 16:38:20 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:38:20 -0000 Subject: Righties and lefties in Potterverse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83714 Hiya, apologies if this has come up before. Yahoo's groupsearch refuses to cooperate. :-( Anyway, yesterday I was listening to PoA read by Stephen Fry during an 11-hour ferry voyage between Finland and Sweden (audiobooks are your friends during dull journeys) and realised something I ought to have realised way earlier. There's some canon evidence for Remus being a lefty in chapter "The Servant of Lord Voldemort" (yes, I'm a southpaw myself, which is why I find the question interesting). When Pettigrew is chained to Remus and Ron, his left arm is chained to Remus' right and his right arm to Ron's left. Yet Remus keeps him covered with his wand, which might suggest that his wand hand is the left one. Or can you get wands for the ambidextrous at Ollivander's? (In some twisted way it makes sense that the percentage of lefties would be higher among Dark creatures -- using the left hand was seen as the mark of the Devil.) Others have suggested that Pettigrew might be a lefty as well, since he cut off his right index finger (PoA) and his right hand (GoF). It makes sense that he'd use his dominant hand for something like that, no? Also, what would happen if a lefty tries to use a right-hand wand (or if you use your wand with your non-dominant hand)? Would it be akin to using a pair of right-hand scissors (uncomfortable, but manageable), a right-hand serrated knife (visible differences in the final results), or a chainsaw (you risk cutting your arm off)? Alshain From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 16:51:04 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:51:04 -0000 Subject: Fidelius (Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83715 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > > Chapter summary. Number 12 is invisible to Harry until he follows Lupin's instructions to think about what he just memorised. Lupin magically opens the door and the group enter. > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: >> snip >>> Here's one part I didn't get: All the others were members of the Order--could they already see 12 Grimmauld upon arrival and only Harry had to think about what he memorized, or do you have to go through this process again each time you try to find the location? >>snip>> once you know the "secret" you can go back over and over to the location without having to be informed again by the Secret Keeper. I always pictured it as the secret being wiped from your mind once you left the location, but the Order obviously knows exactly where to go with Harry. Any other thoughts? Inge: It doesn't make a lot of sense that Harry had to memorise the 'password' unless he would need to use it again. Otherwise he could just read the words out loud and then destroy the paper - or give it back to Moody. Then why is it that the other members don't have to say the words to get in? And when Harry uses the fire in Umbridges office one would think that the fireplace at Grimmauld Place 12 had a charm on it as well so that not anyone who just says "Kitchen, Grimmauld Place 12" can get their head inside Sirius' kitchen. But Harry doesn't need a 'password' for that. From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Oct 28 16:55:25 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:55:25 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] tTuchy-Feely Armchair Psychologist (was: No Sex...We're British) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5964981842.20031028085525@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83716 Hi, Monday, October 27, 2003, 11:19:52 PM, Steve wrote: > This particular insightful aspect of Hermione seems to irritate a few > people, although I don't understand why. To me it is irritating for a couple of reasons. One is that Hermione seems to be becoming more and more a tool for JKR to introduce things to us that other characters aren't able to grasp, in a way. Hermione has almost reached the point of being too perfect a character in some ways(for me), though I still have hope that her overconfidence will cause her some problems in future books. I couldn't understand why Hermione took it upon herself to push Harry into a relationship with Cho. Harry seemed perfectly fine to admire her from afar, and neither one of them was really ready for romantic relationship at this point. > Isn't what Hermione said about Harry's date with Cho pretty much what > you were thinking when you read it? > Wasn't it obvious that Harry was clueless, and wasn't it obvious what > Cho's motivations and feelings were? Yes. So why did Hermione feel she needed to get them together? It almost felt like an experiment she was conducting to see how it would play out. It was really none of her business, and her cool, detached analyzing made me want to ask her why she couldn't also see the outcome this relationship was most likely going to have. > I think Hermione's insight is based in the principle that guides most > problem solving of this personal nature; it much much easier to > understand and solve other people's problems than it is to solve your > own. This I definitely agree with! It's so much easier to see things clearly when your own feelings are not involved. > Conclusion, I see Hermione's insight as very likely and very > believable, and not the least bit irritating. One other reason for feeling irked at Hermione is how she deals with her own and other peoples' feelings, when she *is* personally involved (talking about Ron here). She has a way of making people feel stupid by cooly explaining things, but doesn't seem to see that she acts the same when it comes to her own relationships. Maybe she should sit down with another armchair psychologist to have her own situation analyzed ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Tue Oct 28 09:46:13 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:46:13 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How I think book 7 will end In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031028224010.02e2d890@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83717 At 01:21 28/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Mario wrote: I am sorry but I don't buy that. It is a little too >much "Back to the future" for me. Why not say that, at the end of >book 7, Harry wakes up from a 7-year coma, after being beaten up by >Dudley 7 years earlier? It was all a dream.... > >That would be the biggest disapointement ever for me. Tanya here. Not sure I wrote all that, lol. But yes, it would be disappointing. What I would also find disappointing it that theory taken a step further and everything going back to what it was the night of the attack on the Potters. akin to the time orb that crashed onto the DE. Harry going back to being a toddler and having to grown up all over again, but with parents. But, it all being just a bad dream, what a let down. However it is fun to try and guess. I have yet to work out a pet theory to the end. I might manage that at the end of book 6. Tanya From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Oct 28 17:17:32 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:17:32 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] tTuchy-Feely Armchair Psychologist (was: No Sex...We're British) In-Reply-To: <5964981842.20031028085525@earthlink.net> References: <5964981842.20031028085525@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7866308760.20031028091732@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83718 Hi, Tuesday, October 28, 2003, 8:55:25 AM, Susanne wrote: > Hermione has almost reached the point of being too perfect a > character in some ways(for me), though I still have hope that her > overconfidence > will cause her some problems in future books. Wanted to elaborate on this point, since I didn't really say what I meant . It's not that I personally think Hermione is perfect, but it appears that many in fandom do. She is seen as infallible and perfectly in her right to treat people as she pleases, because she is "right" (at least on the surface, or the outcome of whatever she attempts). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 17:20:17 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:20:17 -0000 Subject: Righties and lefties in Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83719 "alshainofthenorth" wrote: > When Pettigrew > is chained to Remus and Ron, his left arm is chained to Remus' right > and his right arm to Ron's left. Yet Remus keeps him covered with > his wand, which might suggest that his wand hand is the left one. A classic use of handedness/handcuffs is O. Henry's "Hearts and Hands" (under 900 words): http://www.online-literature.com/o_henry/1019/ > (In some twisted > way it makes sense that the percentage of lefties would be higher > among Dark creatures -- using the left hand was seen as the mark of > the Devil.) Rowling knows Portuguese and uses Latin; "sinister" comes from the Latin for "left", obsolete but understandable in Portuguese. There's a use of this in Heinlein's "Podkayne of Mars"; Podkayne is dancing with a rich Venusian of Brazilian descent, "Dexter Cunha III". She asks about his name, and he answers, "By the time my parents discovered I was left-handed, it was too late to name me 'Sinister'." - Caipora From oppen at mycns.net Tue Oct 28 17:30:51 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:30:51 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speaking up for Petunia References: <20031028095012.59592.qmail@web20706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003101c39d79$3db6ce20$b7570043@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 83720 > oiboyz wrote: > That's an interesting theory, and I think it fits Petunia's and > Dudley's personalities very well (not to mention that it would be too > cool if Dudley turned out to be a wizard too...) > > My reply: Just a very random thought that just hit me but does anyone else think there is something very interesting in the constant Dudley spoiling. I mean they are always trying to make him happy, always giving in, never letting him through a fit on his own. Could it be that they are trying to prevent some accidental magic? > > ~Melanie, who is positive there is something in Dudley's past. I've mentioned this myself on the list some time ago. There has got to be some reason for them spoiling him so rotten. Hmmm...could it be that Dudders _isn't_ their oldest/only child? If Petunia had had a baby before, one that _died_ because of accidental magic...would that explain not only their frantic smother-love of Dudley, but their attitude toward Harry, whom they're pretty sure even _before_ The Letters >From No One _is_ magical? Oh, to be able to know all there is to know... From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 17:36:18 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:36:18 -0000 Subject: Patriotism in the WW? In-Reply-To: <004201c39c6f$e06627c0$8a59d718@vaio> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83721 Melissa McCarthy wrote: > > So, is there patriotism at all in the WW? Is an individual's first loyalty to his/her country as against other countries; does he see him/herself first as a subject or citizen of his/her country and then as a wizard/witch? It's possible that patriotism matters in the WW, at least somewhat; the example of Seamus suggests this. Or is he/she primarily loyal to the WW? The second possibility seems more likely to me because of the history of wizard persecution by Muggles. This could be another reason for pureblood wizards to dislike the presence of Muggle-born students at Hogwarts, since a Muggle-born might have been taught loyalty to England and certainly wouldn't have been taught loyalty to the Wizarding World. Perhaps someday we'll see a Muggle-born student struggling with this question. Of course, this doesn't explain Seamus; perhaps patriotism is an issue in some countries but not in others. If that's true, though, there goes my half-formed theory about Muggle-borns' possible patriotism being a reason for purebloods to distrust them. Am I just overthinking this? Ideas? thoughts? smacks with a wet noodle? > Now me: Well, in the real world people have many identities, sometimes conflicting with each other. It's just one of those things people deal with. Patriotism is a feeling related to belonging to a group, a community of all the other people who are also from the same nation as one is. Wizarding pride would be another such feeling related to belonging to another group. As the other respondents to your question have noted, there seems to be a fair amount of shows of such patriotism going on. (an example that hasn't been mentioned is Hagrid's admonition against 'foreigners' in GoF). I think that as long as those two identities were not in conflict, they wouldn't play out in every day life. The issue of blood in the WW seems to me to be unrelated to national origin or patriotism, other wise I think Malfoy or someone like that might have mentioned it at some point (such as "hey Granger why don't you go sing God Save the Queen somewhere else" or somethign to that effect...) Gorda From gorda_ad at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 17:47:31 2003 From: gorda_ad at hotmail.com (adsong16) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:47:31 -0000 Subject: Fidelius (Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83722 > Inge: > It doesn't make a lot of sense that Harry had to memorise > the 'password' unless he would need to use it again. Otherwise he > could just read the words out loud and then destroy the paper - or > give it back to Moody. > Then why is it that the other members don't have to say the words to > get in? > And when Harry uses the fire in Umbridges office one would think that > the fireplace at Grimmauld Place 12 had a charm on it as well so that > not anyone who just says "Kitchen, Grimmauld Place 12" can get their > head inside Sirius' kitchen. But Harry doesn't need a 'password' for > that. Gorda: But the secret had already been disclosed to him, so he could use the Floo network. Presumably until the secret keeper tells you the secret, you are not even aware that it exists, so you wouldn't even know that a 12 Grimmauld Place existed (remember on the street there's a number 11 and a number 13, until Harry *thinks* about what he read. Reading it wasn't enough.) It raises the question about Godric's Hollow: presumably Peter had told Sirius where to find the Potters, because when he finds Peter's place empty he gets a bad feeling and goes looking for hte Potters. So other close friends (Remus, DD, Hagrid?) had been told the secret, before Peter went blabbering to LV. But after the place got blown up, did the charm still exist? Otherwise, how could the police come to the place? Hagrid says he went to get Harry before the Muggles started swarming around... is he just assuming here? Or does he know that the Fidelius Charm is lifted after the people it's protecting die? Wouldn't little Harry be still protected by Fidelius? Very confusing... Gorda From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 18:03:38 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:03:38 -0000 Subject: The Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83723 Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the whole "phoenix" theme, and how it may affect the outcome of the series. I believe it's no coincidence that Dumbledore owns Fawkes and, consequently, that his little group has been named the Order of the Phoenix (for no reason which is currently apparent to us). In CoS, after Harry witnesses Fawkes bursting into flames, Dumbledore remarks that it's about time, as Fawkes has been looking badly for days. This seems to relate to Harry's noticing (throughout the series, but particularly in Book 5) that Dumbledore is looking older and frailer than he has ever seen him before. Is Dumbledore about to burst into flames (metaphorically or literally)?? And let's not forget Dumbledore's work with Nicholas Flamel on the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone, and his comment to Harry that "there are some things that are worse than death". He seems to know more than he is telling about what those things are. And how does all of this affect Harry? Can't seem to put my finger on it yet, but I still feel there is to be some rebirth of Dumbledore through Harry (again, either metaphorically or literally) by the series' end. Perhaps Harry will replace Dumbledore as the "only one he ever feared" in Voldemort's eyes. (I am of the belief that Harry has greater powers than anyone realizes, and that it was his unbridled powers which actually caused the destruction and incineration of Grimmauld Place. Yes, Harry "rose" from the ashes of Grimmauld Place!!). ::Entropy:: , who apologizes for posing questions without actually answering any of them. From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 18:07:23 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:07:23 -0000 Subject: Potion Master supreme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > > I can also see how students like Neville could lead to a nervous > breakdown. Add to that being a double agent, and I have to > wonder how much of the way he acts is due to stress... Just one small (possibly annoying) note: I think the general consensus is that Snape is actually a spy, or agent. Not a double agent. If he were a double agent, he would be simultaneously spying on Dumbledore and reporting valid information to the DE's while spying on the DE's and reporting valid information to Dumbledore. Sorry to be nitpicky. :: Entropy :: From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 28 18:19:28 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:19:28 -0000 Subject: tTuchy-Feely Armchair Psychologist (was: No Sex...We're British) In-Reply-To: <5964981842.20031028085525@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > To me it is irritating for a couple of reasons. > One is that Hermione seems to be becoming more and more a > tool for JKR to introduce things to us that other characters > aren't able to grasp, in a way. That is true. But JKR is contrained by the fact that she chose to tell the story from a single (Harry's) POV. How do you get background information or the POV of other characters if you only hear one person. Unless you'd have Harry suddenly become a prodigious reader and figure it all out himself. I think it'd not hurt the story if we'd have occasional POV's from other major characters, but I don't see JKR changing her formula this late in the game, so the only solution is to have the background told by other characters. > Hermione has almost reached the point of being too perfect a > character in some ways(for me), though I still have hope that her overconfidence > will cause her some problems in future books. It already has - see the incident with the centaurs. > I couldn't understand why Hermione took it upon herself to > push Harry into a relationship with Cho. Harry seemed > perfectly fine to admire her from afar, and neither one of > them was really ready for romantic relationship at this > point. I did not see Hermione "pushing" Harry. All she did was get out of the way and, more importantly, get Ron out of the way :-), when Cho was approaching Harry - which is what Harry wanted. She was very curious about the progress of the relationship and, I suspect, shared the same confusion of Cho's (liking two boys), which is why she understood Cho's feelings so well - she had some of the same herself. While I believe JKR is setting us up for a RH-ship, I think Hermione has some feelings towards Harry as well, which is partly why she (subconsciously?) wrecked his date with Cho. For someone as understanding of the situation as she was, how could she not figure out that Cho was Jealous of her relations with Harry (especially as Krum had the same problem the year before). Had she told Harry why she wanted him to meet her (talk to a reporter), he could have explained all that to Cho and avoided the explosion, but Hermione asked him to meet her during a date with another girl. Why would she do that if she wanted that relsationship to work? > Yes. So why did Hermione feel she needed to get them > together? It almost felt like an experiment she was > conducting to see how it would play out. She did not get them together - they wanted that themselves. All she did was get out of the way and offer advice later. > One other reason for feeling irked at Hermione is how she > deals with her own and other peoples' feelings, when she *is* personally > involved (talking about Ron here). Her inability to see her own failings there is one of the things that make her such an irresistable character. :-) > She has a way of making people feel stupid by cooly > explaining things, but doesn't seem to see that she acts the > same when it comes to her own relationships. Aren't we all... Salit From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Oct 28 18:21:19 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:21:19 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" wrote: > Does any one knows where Percy got Scabbers? If he was his pet before, > he must have got Scabbers somehow, didn't he know, the humungous > bighead, that it was "a common garden mouse", or was he in allegiance > with the Dark Side all along, the traitorous wizard. > Pets don't just appear out of nowhere, except cats, that is. But > there is a mouse in my bed, I just keep it there? I don't think so. > So, how did Scabbers become a pet, from a filthy pest? > Nineve I'm not real sure but I'd bet that the name "scabbers" indicates that Peter's missing/severed finger(Wormtail's toe) was still a bit "scabby" when Percy got him. Arya From grannybat at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 18:34:01 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:34:01 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83727 Caipora is feeling playful: > > In [Larry Niven's] _What Good is a Glass Dagger?_ ... > The bad guy, it seems, carries a sword. The Warlock bursts out > laughing. His explanation is that since a wizard has so many more > powerful protections, he only carries a sword if he's using it as a > cure for impotence. > > Thus Niven sheds new light on the personality of Godric Gryffindor. You know, when I first read this I laughed?and then swore I wouldn't touch this post with a ten-foot wand. But the implications of the issue just kept nagging at me.... What function DOES the Sword of Gryffindor serve in the series? Besides a direct reference to the Arthurian legend in Harry's fight against the basilisk, I mean. The pure symbolism that confers Harry's status as the spiritual heir of his House Founder's heart and courage can't be missed, of course, but this line of thought doesn't supply a rationale internal to the Magical world. As Caipora points out, it's an odd item for a wizard to possess, much less put to practical use; wouldn't it make more sense for Hogwarts to preserve and pass on Gryffindor's wand? None of the other Founders (or any other wizard/witch, for that matter) is said to wield a sword. Sir Cadogan does, but nothing he does or says as a portrait signals to me that he was a wizard during his lifetime. Perhaps Godric created the sword specifically to dispatch monsters that could be killed only by cold steel or silver. Did he suspect sulky Salazar had left that kind of a pet in his wake? If that's the case, then maybe the sword will be effective against the Dementors in the coming carnage. (The Patronus spell only drives off Dementors, it doesn't destroy them.) I'll be very surprised if JKR leaves the sword to tarnish in its display case now that open war has been declared. Its potential as symbol and pragmatic weapon is just too strong. No, I don't think the ruby-hilted blade will be revealed as the medieval form of Viagra. That's not Rowling's style. Grannybat From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 18:39:55 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:39:55 -0000 Subject: The Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83729 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > ...powers which actually caused the destruction and incineration of > Grimmauld Place. Yes, Harry "rose" from the ashes of Grimmauld Place!!). Sorry, I meant Godric's Hollow, not Grimmauld Place. damn. :: Entropy :: From pennygbrooks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 16:38:34 2003 From: pennygbrooks at yahoo.com (pennygbrooks) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:38:34 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83730 <<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" wrote: I have to comment on the post, sorry no snip, that mentioned Snape as a vampire...hmm interesting stuff. That would definately be a curve JKR supreme. Has Snape ever been mentioned outside during daylight...not that I can remember. This would be a cool revilation Refereeing the odd Quidditch game, spectating the odd Quidditch game... and throughout NOT shrouded in black cloth, a hat and sunglasses....>> I still stand by my earlier speculation that Snape isn't a vampire, but he is an unregistered animagus...and I'm betting that he turns into a bat (because of all the similarities of characteristics). I still think that only Dumbledore knows about this, and the two of them work together to spy on the DE's. Penny Bee, refusing to give up on my theory! :) From thren at subreality.com Tue Oct 28 15:00:29 2003 From: thren at subreality.com (Thren) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:00:29 -0500 Subject: Wizarding dump? [was Re: Petunia's knowledge?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F9E848D.30703@subreality.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83731 tiggersong wrote: >I don't know how the recycling thing happens where you are, but here >it works this way. > > > Yes, I know how recycling works, but thanks for the refresher. My statement stands- if the WW is so concerned about keeping itself secret from the Muggle world, they can't just allow the Daily Prophet to go through normal recycling methods. First, there's the danger that someone will see it. It could fall out of the bundle, someone could see it at any points along its jouirney to being shredded. It's *physical proof* that the WW exists. It's not just someone who sees a flying car, or a dragon, or people doing magic. It's something they can hold in their hands and show to people. VERY dangerous. All it would take is a trip down to the (Muggle) newspaper, and boom! international news. Can't be easy to Memory Charm most of the Western World, can it? And I don't know how garbage disposal goes over in Britain, so for this argument let's say we're talking about an American/Canadian Wizarding paper- I *know* we have people who go through dumps. It's highly likely that a newspaper would somehow, some way make its way to a dump sometime- not everyone recycles, or sometimes people slip up. All it takes is one, and everybody goes down. Same goes for parts of the world like Southeast Asia, where there are whole *communities* of people living in the dump and scavenging. They can't just toss them out. Even illiterates can't ignore moving pictures of goblins or whathaveyou. See where I'm going with this? There are so many different ways that Muggles could see the Prophet or other Wizarding papers if it were to go through the Muggle garbage system. It'd be far too much risk to let people just toss them into the system. So how do they get rid of their garbage in general? Use that vanishing thing Snape does on Harry's cauldron? Where does all that stuff *go*, anyway? Magic seems to follow basic laws of nature- you can't just *disappear*, for instance, you Disapparate from one place and Apparate instantly in another. You don't just *not exist in bodily form*. Does the WW have a dump somewhere that they just poof things to? And wouldn't *that* be a fun place. :P Y'know, it strikes me how pathetic it is that I just sat here typing this all up... *sigh* I need a life. Thren From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Tue Oct 28 14:15:39 2003 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:15:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01c39d5d$f9ddd510$2cefa118@jamesz9ibq8rxr> No: HPFGUIDX 83732 Does any one knows where Percy got Scabbers? If he was his pet before, he must have got Scabbers somehow, didn't he know, the humungous bighead, that it was "a common garden mouse", or was he in allegiance with the Dark Side all along, the traitorous wizard. Pets don't just appear out of nowhere, except cats, that is. But there is a mouse in my bed, I just keep it there? I don't think so. So, how did Scabbers become a pet, from a filthy pest? Nineve Great point and one I never thought of. Where did Scabbers come from? After the way Percy acted in OOTP he my well have had a allegiance with the dark Side long ago. He has long thought that his family being poor was due to the fact that his parents didn't rub elbows with the right people. Maybe he thinks the Dark side is the right one to rub elbows with to get what he wants. Pilotjb3 From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 28 16:57:53 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:57:53 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Righties and lefties in Potterverse References: Message-ID: <000901c39d74$a241e320$8997aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83733 Iggy here: I don't really think the issue of Peter's finger, or Remu's wand use would be that much of an issue, actually. Personally, I am considered left handed merely because I write and do intricite work with my left hand. Yet I shoot guns or bows with my right hand. If I'm cutting food with a knife, I can use either hand, but when I've practiced knife fighting, I am distinctly right handed. In fact, if I had to cut off a finger for some readon, I'd actually be more likely to remove one from my left hand since I only need three fingers to write with, but I'd feel like I'd need all the fingers on my right hand to wield a wand, catch a quaffle, etc... In many cases, a person can be "left handed" but "right armed"... which means that while their left hand is dominant for things like writing, their right hand is dominant for things that tend to require broader movements. (I also took American Sign Language for a semester in college, and the teacher found it incredibly unisial that I was left dominant when I write, but right dominant when I signed. Usually, you sign with the hand you write with... partly because it's considered to be your "expressive" hand.) As for the wand... I don't think it's a factor of which hand a person uses to wield the wand, rather it's the person themselves that makes the difference. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd From pjcousins at btinternet.com Tue Oct 28 17:36:19 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:36:19 -0000 Subject: The VEIL and The Weasleys Not @ MOM Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83734 "S & R Ranch" > in post 83307 > Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:49 am > Subject: The Weasleys Not @ MOM > > I have been wondering where were Mr & Mrs Weasley when Sirius, > Lupin,Tonks, Moody & the others came to Harry & the others rescue > at the MOM? Her "wonderful clock" (as DD put it)would have shown > Mrs W. that 2 of her children were in mortal danger! So why would > the parents not come to the aid of their own children? then i , Phil, (confusinglyso) in post 83373, The VEIL > "confusinglyso" > Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:36 am > Subject: The VEIL Some snipping of preamble > The VEIL > It is described as hanging from a stone arch and seems to be > only 2 dimensional. This raises 2 questions. > 1. How does Sirius disappear if only 2 dimensional ? > 2. Where are voices coming from ? > A further crucial question is where does the idea come from that the > veil is actually the border between life and death? Luna and maybe > Lupin seeded this idea in Harry's mind but I do not think it is > stated as fact in the book. > 1. The veil may be simply a part of ventilation system (Department > of Mysteries is deep underground) > 2. It may be part of joint ventilation system with Gringotts vaults. 3. The voices Harry and Luna heard are Arthur, Molly, and Bill Weasley. Bill works at Gringotts and the Weasleys are in the Gringott tunnel area preparing for Sirius' arrival (following Dumbledore's plan as postulated by the T-BAY experts). Harry even calls out "Ron" at one point thinking he hears his voice from the veil. Any canon on whether Arthur or Bill sound like Ron? This idea answers S & R Ranch, post 83184, who wanted to know where Mr and Mrs Weasley were during MoM rescue.Also a response by Richard in post 83357. 4. What could Fudge as head of MoM do with a secret entrance to Gringotts underground passages ? Maybe kidnap/kill unwary goblins. The Quibbler stated 'Cornelius "Goblin Crusher" Fudge has ambitions to sieze control of goblin gold supplies.' > 5. If the lifts (elevators) stop working perhaps a sign appears on > the arch "Emergency Exit". As I have stated above, the veil is described as a 2 Dimensional object. Then I am enlightened by the following post on the Fidelius Charm on Grimmauld Place. > 83711 From: Jen Reese > Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:24pm > Subject: Fidelius (Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number > Twelve, Grimmauld Place) > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Chapter summary. > >5) Is any light thrown on the workings of the Fidelius Charm, by >which Number Twelve seems to be protected? > Jen: Now that you mention it...This does gives us more information > on the Fidelius. It also reminds me of the Room of Requirement due > to the similar mechanism of "imagining" a location into existence. > **Well and once again, we see the ability in the WW to use ** > ** more space than the Muggle World appears to notice or use, ** > ** like the WW is operating on the same plane of existence ** > ** but is able to incorporate almost another dimension.** rest of post 83711 snipped This last post has reminded us that 12 Grimmauld Place appears from nowhere from between numbers eleven and thirteen! Now to the veil, it seems only 2D, but must have a magical third dimension, for it to be possible for Sirius to disappear. Whether its third dimension operates similarly to Fidelius I cannot say, because Harry and Neville saw Sirius disappear, besides DD and Lupin. Certainly Harry and Neville were not privy to any Fidelius knowledge to grant them a clearer view of the veil. Summing up, my theory is that the veil has a magical third dimension allowing Sirius to disappear. As in my earlier post, I still beleive that Mr & Mrs Weasley and Bill are waiting (below ?) for Sirius. Phil. From leon at adatofamily.com Tue Oct 28 18:58:15 2003 From: leon at adatofamily.com (Leon Adato) Date: 28 Oct 2003 13:58:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Godric's sword (was "No Sex, Please, We're British") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1067367495.26622.162.camel@localhost,> No: HPFGUIDX 83735 I think the explanation can be far more obvious. Godric lived during a time when swords were commonplace. We can infer that he was a wealthy person, of "noble" blood of one sort or another (muggle or wizard designations). *Not* to own a sword would have in some way been anachronistic for such a person at such a time. Nobody said he carried it around with him wherever he went. Perhaps it was over the doorframe in his castle. We don't even know that the sword is inherently magical. It sices, it dices, it makes basilisk fries. But does it every do anything which is remarkable beyond being a sword. Even exceptional balance, keen edge, etc aren't hallmarks of supernatural blades. Maybe it stays sharp no matter what. Yawn. Do we consider the quills the students use which maintain their sharpness to be amazingly magical? I'm sure folks 200 years ago would, of course. But in the greater scheme of Gred and Forge's fireworks and skivving snackboxes, it doesn't exactly take my breath away. We don't know what the other founders left behind (besides Sal. Who left an even-more-phallic rememberance. Talk about the a "throbbing python of love"!). Bets are on that we find out what the other artifacts are, before 2 more books pass. As for weapons being used commonly, it is possible. There are all sorts of legends about needing a silver blade to cut certain herbs, "cold" iron to dispatch certain monsters, etc. It may come to light that a particular type of instrument is needed, and our heros haven't stumbled across it yet. $.01 deduction duly noted. Leon -- Leon Adato =============== You are never too old to be what you might have been. -George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans), novelist (1819-1880) http://www.adatofamily.com adatole at yahoo.com phone: 440-542-9659 fax: 305-832-2818 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Oct 28 19:34:56 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:34:56 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: What function DOES the Sword of Gryffindor serve in the series? SNIP I'll be very surprised if JKR leaves the sword to tarnish in its display case now that open war has been declared. Its potential as symbol and pragmatic weapon is just too strong. Arya Writes: I agree. It's got a role to play yet. I don't have one of my OotP books here at work (blast it all!!) but in DD's office after the telling of the prophecy and as the sun is rising, Harry, pondering something (or meerly still absorbing) looks off to the side to see Godric Gryffindor's sword in a glass case, with the dawn's sunlight glinting off of it. Foreshadowing anyone? That sword is mentioned here again, in a very *big* scene. You know, I often wonder just how much about Harry, does Hermione really know? Does she know ALL that we the readers know? Harry isn't the most sharing type, especially about personal things. We know Herms was still sleeping the sleep of the petrified when Harry came out of the Chamber, dragging the sword with him. We know Ernie (I think?) said one of the portraits said Harry killed a basislisk with a great big sword (again, no book here, just paraphrasing). I wonder if Herms knows it was *the* sword of GG...like maybe, perhaps, there is something said about it in oh, say..."Hogwarts: A History"??? I have to wonder... Arya From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 19:45:29 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:45:29 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83737 Sirius is gone after three books, and I'm still at a loss as to what he was ever doing there in the first place. I used to think that Harry would end up living with Sirius, but now that he's dead, I think there's not much chance of that happening. So, this begs the question: what the heck was he there for in the first place? If we assume that all main characters are written in to serve some purpose toward the development of the story, then what was Sirius's unique purpose? Here are a few reasons I thought Sirius may have been introduced, and why I now believe he wasn't needed. 1. As a father figure for Harry. Nope, we've already established that this ain't gonna happen. 2. To help Harry get a better understanding of James. There are lots of others that can and have done that, including Dumbledore, Hagrid, Snape, and possibly the person in the best position to do this, Lupin. Although the closest to James, Sirius's input was probably redundant. 3. To explain the workings of Azkaban. Harry's had Hagrid around all this time, and he's been there twice. As a plot device, Sirius wasn't needed to explain Azkaban to Harry or the reader. 4. To explain what happened on the night James/Lily were killed. It would have been interesting to hear Sirius's take on what happened, and it may have been enlightening. But he never really gave us much new info, other than letting us know that Peter Pettigrew was the real murderer. But that could have been explained by Peter himself. So, the logical question now is: why *was* Sirius written in as an important character in three out of five books? There must be some reason for his presence, but I have to admit, I'm stumped. Unless we're going to see Sirius in Books 6 or 7, I can't imagine why JKR needed to create him in the first place, just to kill him off without any real "revelations" on his part. :: Entropy :: From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 19:54:14 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:54:14 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83738 "grannybat84112" wrote: > Caipora is feeling playful: > > > > In [Larry Niven's] _What Good is a Glass Dagger?_ ... > > The bad guy, it seems, carries a sword. The Warlock bursts out > > laughing. His explanation is that since a wizard has so many more > > powerful protections, he only carries a sword if he's using it as a > > cure for impotence. > > > > Thus Niven sheds new light on the personality of Godric Gryffindor. > I'll be very surprised if JKR leaves the sword > to tarnish in its display case now that open war has been declared. > Its potential as symbol and pragmatic weapon is just too strong. > > No, I don't think the ruby-hilted blade will be revealed as the > medieval form of Viagra. That's not Rowling's style. I think we can agree that the sword is a very potent symbol . . . The reasons for a wizard to use a blade do enter into _What Good is a Glass Dagger?_ but I can't explain further without spoiling the story. The protagonist in that story is a student in a wizarding school - not Hogwarts but the School for Mercantile Grammarie in Atlantis, IIRC - and, yet again, a teenage werewolf. Randall Garret's magic is more organized than Rowling's. In one of his Lord Darcy books, Darcy's Master Magician explains some of the contents of his bag of magician's tools. He has a dull dagger as a symbol for a dull dagger, and a sharp dagger as a symbol of a sharp dagger. "Sometimes the best symbol for a thing is the thing itself." Recall the scene where everyone has a sword and Indiana Jones uses Something Else. Whatever may be said of the moral characters of Riddle and Slytherin, there's no question but that they were first- rate magicians. Facing Riddle and Slytherin's Basilisk, the best weapon may well have been anything but a wand. The Sorting Hat, old in wizardry and having looked over the shoulders of all the Headmasters of Hogwarts, delivered a sword and not a wand. - Caipora From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Oct 28 20:03:27 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:03:27 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: <000d01c39d5d$f9ddd510$2cefa118@jamesz9ibq8rxr> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Great point and one I never thought of. Where did Scabbers come from? > After the way Percy acted in OOTP he my well have had a allegiance with > the dark Side long ago. Percy was 5 when he got Scabbers. In no way was a five year old child in league with Voldemort. Especially not a Weasley child. I think Pettigrew just realised that Percy was the son of a ministry member and hoped to get some information. So he played the nice pet to Percy, that Percy could take him in. Hickengruendler From yellows at aol.com Tue Oct 28 20:16:32 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:16:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where Percy got Scabbers Message-ID: <15BE8E7E.04174990.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83740 In a message dated 10/28/2003 3:03:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Hickengruendler writes: > Percy was 5 when he got Scabbers. In no way was a five year old child > in league with Voldemort. Especially not a Weasley child. I think > Pettigrew just realised that Percy was the son of a ministry member > and hoped to get some information. So he played the nice > pet to > Percy, that Percy could take him in. > I agree. I don't think Percy was -- or is now -- in league with Voldemort. I think he's seriously misguided and making really bad judegment calls, but that doesn't make him a DE. But I *do* think it's significant that Percy was the one who had Scabbers first. Perhaps that was an early clue that Percy often turned a blind eye to DEs? I don't know what this means about Ron, then, but I like to assume that Ron's not to blame for not noticing Scabbers'... abnormalilty because Scabbers was a hand-me-down, and Ron ought to be able to trust the things his family gives him. Percy, on the other hand, may have found Scabbers on his own (even this is speculation, though) and that would make Percy the weak link who brought Scabbers into the family in the first place. Brief Chronicles From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 20:20:31 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:20:31 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83741 Sorry, Arya, but I meant where Percy got the pet, nome the name. I want to know how Scabbers/Peter/whatever come to live with Percy. Nineve +++++++++ > wrote: > > Does any one knows where Percy got Scabbers? > > So, how did Scabbers become a pet, from a filthy pest? > > Nineve ++++++++ > I'm not real sure but I'd bet that the name "scabbers" indicates that > Peter's missing/severed finger(Wormtail's toe) was still a > bit "scabby" when Percy got him. > > Arya From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 28 20:28:16 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:28:16 -0000 Subject: FILK: Hermy, You're A Boy's Best Friend Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83742 I wrote this ages ago and forgot about it, and then all the talk of Hermione-as-agony-aunt reminded me. This was inspired by the lovely bit of Filked tapdancing in Caius's No More Days. Kirstini ********************************************************************* Hermy, You're A Boy's Best Friend To the tune of Sparkling Diamonds (Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend/Material Girl) from Moulin Rouge. No Midis available, original lyrics here: http://www.lyricsmp3.net/D56000/kk55904.htm Time: OoP - (I've accidentally mixed two sections up, I think) Scene: The Gryffindor Common Room. Darkness. Spotlight on Harry's face. HARRY: When Cedric died, she lost her love... (Fanfare. Lights up to reveal that HARRY is actually descending from the ceiling on his Firebolt. He is wearing a scarlet and gold top hat and tails, with fishnet tights, to great effect. He gets off the broom and takes centre stage.) HARRY: I kissed her just once, I got Quite sentimental: She wanted to be more than friends! We went on a date - and she went totally mental Then she ran away, and left me mumbling "what I say?" Well, we walked, of Quidditch talked Didn't know how it all was to end... Oh Merlin, I felt sick When she brought up Cedric! (with RON, who is similarly dressed and has stepped into the spotlight:) Cho has gone right round the bend! HARRY(birling round the common room to HERMIONE:) Hermione! RON (attempting the same manouevre with marginally less grace): (Oh yeah) Hermione! HERMIONE (seated, in basque and tights): Merlin's sake, boys, can't you just keep it schtum? Can't you see that I'm writing to Krum? (RON [mouthed, to Harry]:KRUM?) HERMIONE (picking a top hat up off the nearest table:) Oh, what *is* it, boys? (Saxaphone. They dance in formation. Ron ladders his tights.) HARRY: Cho cried and fled - HERMIONE: Talk to me, Harry Potter, tell me all about it! HARRY: Well - HERMIONE (not listening): The thing about Cho is she's feeling unstable - RON: How'd you know that - you're not her friend! HERMIONE (ignoring him): She just needs to know that she's top of your table So she's acting coy - (RON: Mental!) HERMIONE: Oh shut your mouth up, teaspoon boy! I am sure Cho's insecure, And just jealous of your female friends - (GINNY, PARVATI and LAVENDER appear, dressed in scarlet and gold can- can skirts) G, P, L: So you should tell her you like her So you should tell her you like - HARRY: Hermy, you're a boy's best - Hermy, you're a boy's best - Hermy, you're a boy's best friend! (The common room erupts into mass formation dancing, with HERMIONE at the centre. Fred and George enact a nifty little manouvre taking the Headless Hats on and off in time to the music. RON attempts to edge through the dancers to get to HERMIONE.) RON(spoken): Really, you should write a book on this stuff, you know. Hermione? Why do you want to write to Vicky, anyway? Eh? (loudly, over the music) I mean basically he's just a grouchy git! HERMIONE (ignoring him again): So next time she's snuggly, just tell her I'm ugly! HARRY and RON(as the Gryffindors raise HERMIONE slowly on their shoulders): Hermy! You're a! Boy's! Best! HERMIONE: Friend? (Fanfare. Lights dim to a spot on HERMIONE's face, then cut.) From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 20:59:38 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:59:38 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83743 Ok, you have a point, BUT, JKR said that she had the books edited so that every one would be an interesting read on itself. You would be able to read book 3, for example and enjoy it, and if you wanted you could read the others or not (of course you would, but, that's not the point). Seeing canon as indepent and yet interelated episodes, there is no reason why a character has to live on. I think Sirius never represented a father figure, Harry has Mr Weasley who is far more effective. As PoA is my favourite book, I thought the plot was the maddest and best of all, and JKR worked with "things are not the way it seems" concept, which is a great example for kids and adults alike, as all where involved in looking at the truth from another angle. It was a pitty for me that Sirius died, if he is never coming back, but Harry will again have to deal with death, as it is his major issue. If you think that loads of main characters almost died, like Hermione, Mcgonagal, Arthur, ... then everyone could have ended there and they still would have played important parts for future and past of the plot. Without Sirius, timetravel wouldn't have happened, Buckbeak would be decapitated, Scabbers would still be confy in Ron's bed, Voldemort would be alone in the forest, Harry wouldn't have the Marauder's map, they wouldn't have gonne to the MoM, Fudge wouldn't have seen Voldy, the profecy wouldn't have been revealed, etc etc etc. Ok, so the story could have been writen diferently, but the plot needs short and long influences to work, just like happened with Cedric. Nineve. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > Sirius is gone after three books, and I'm still at a loss as to what > he was ever doing there in the first place. I used to think that > Harry would end up living with Sirius, but now that he's dead, I think > there's not much chance of that happening. > > So, this begs the question: what the heck was he there for in the > first place? If we assume that all main characters are written in to > serve some purpose toward the development of the story, then what was > Sirius's unique purpose? Here are a few reasons I thought Sirius may > have been introduced, and why I now believe he wasn't needed. > > 1. As a father figure for Harry. > Nope, we've already established that this ain't gonna happen. > > 2. To help Harry get a better understanding of James. > There are lots of others that can and have done that, including > Dumbledore, Hagrid, Snape, and possibly the person in the best > position to do this, Lupin. Although the closest to James, Sirius's > input was probably redundant. > > 3. To explain the workings of Azkaban. > Harry's had Hagrid around all this time, and he's been there twice. As > a plot device, Sirius wasn't needed to explain Azkaban to Harry or the > reader. > > 4. To explain what happened on the night James/Lily were killed. > It would have been interesting to hear Sirius's take on what happened, > and it may have been enlightening. But he never really gave us much > new info, other than letting us know that Peter Pettigrew was the real > murderer. But that could have been explained by Peter himself. > > So, the logical question now is: why *was* Sirius written in as an > important character in three out of five books? There must be some > reason for his presence, but I have to admit, I'm stumped. Unless > we're going to see Sirius in Books 6 or 7, I can't imagine why JKR > needed to create him in the first place, just to kill him off without > any real "revelations" on his part. > > :: Entropy :: From grannybat at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 21:00:09 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:00:09 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83744 Geoff corrected me: > >--it's always bothered me that Tom > > Riddle's mother died in the Muggle world.... Why didn't > > she return to the Magical world after being rejected by her > > child's father? She was a witch. She shouldn't have had to put up > > with the fate of a "fallen woman...." > > > > Unless the Magical world's attitude toward out-of-wedlock births > > is even more archaic and vicious than the Muggle world's. > Perhaps I should point out that your argument is not upheld by > evidence in canon: > > "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for > ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin > himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, > common, Muggle who abandoned me even before I was born, just > because he found out his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" > > Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231) Blast. That's what I get for theorizing on the one book I don't have in my possession right now. Thank you for catching that so quickly. All right, I'll leave the fate of unwed mothers in the Magical world to fanfic until JKR gives me reason to take it up again. The question remains: Why didn't Tom Riddle's mother return to the Magical world before giving birth? Did she not even try? Did she try and was rejected? Was she physically unable to go back? I still maintain that Rowling hasn't disclosed all the circumstances surrounding Tom Riddle's mother for a reason?and these details will prove important in the defeat of Voldemort. Just as important: How did Tom Riddle learn the story about his mother's death? He was a newborn, not likely to retain any coherent memory of his birth. The dying mother could have told the attending midwife(?) about her baby's middle name, and the midwife could have passed on that explanation years later (how very Dickens)?but I seriously doubt Mrs. Riddle would have explained to a Muggle nurse just why her husband had abandoned her. Tom Riddle had to learn his family history from a specific source. I'm betting that source had its own agenda in telling Tom about his family history. Grannybat From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 28 20:35:10 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:35:10 -0600 Subject: Blades in the WW (Was: Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) References: Message-ID: <005401c39d92$fc9f7300$72e479a5@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83745 > - Caipora > I think we can agree that the sword is a very potent symbol . . . *the rest of the letter is snipped* Iggy here: I think Godrick's sword will be more important as a symbol than as a blade. A few examples of the effect a sword can have as a more potent symbol than weapon: Excalibur - The importance to the people in the Arthurian legends was less the fact that it was a sword (albeit an incredibly effective one), and more in what the sword stood for. It stood as the symbol of the heir and rightful King of England. the Sword of Riva (from the Belgariad) - This sword was mounted, point down, behind the basalt throne of the Rivan King. Only the heir of the Rivan King could remove the sword from the wall with the aid of the Orb of Aldur. When the sword was drawn, the orb caused it to burst into blue fire. This was the symbol of rulership for the people of Riva, and the blue flame showed that the Rivan King had joined the battle... a definite morale booster there... the Sword of Joan of Arc - Reputed to be from the Church of Saint Catherine of Fierbois. Joan told her soldiers where to find it for her, even though she had never been to this church. The sword was often seen as a symbol of her divine guidance by St. Michael (captain-general of the armies of Heaven), St. Catherine, and St. Margaret (both early Christian martyrs). the Sword of Truth (from the series of the same name) - Wielded by Richard Rahl, this sword was the symbol of the Seeker of Truth. It could utterly slay those that the Seeker believed to be false or guilty, yet could not harm those the Seeker believed to be innocent of wrongdoing. The Sword of Truth was wielded by many impostors, but could only be *safely* wielded by the true Seeker, and would only give its full power to that person. The Sword itself was a symbol of Truth and the power it wielded over people was as much from the symbology of the Sword and its Seeker, as from the weapon itself. There are just a few examples, and it pretty much defines how I view Godrick's sword... Its power is greater as a symbol and as the relic of House Gryffindor than its power as an actual weapon. Just my two centaurs worth. Iggy McSnurd From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 21:20:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:20:38 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" wrote: > Does any one knows where Percy got Scabbers? > ...edited... > > Nineve bboy_mn: Let's play a little role playing game for a few seconds. Let's say you are Peter/Wormtail, you've just betrayed your best friend, framed your second best friend, and faked your own death in the process; so what do you do? You need the basics of life, food, shelter, and most important of all someplace where you can keep a close eye and ear out for any information of Voldemort or Death Eater activity in the wizard world. What better place than to hang around a wizard family in your animagus Rat form. But what wizard family? Is it likely that Malfoy's or Crouch's are going to let a filthy rat hang around their mansion? I think not. So what kind a wizard family would he need? Hummm..... How about a wizard family that is poor, so a rat wouldn't seem that out of place, and a /free/ pet would be welcome. Even better a wizard family that lives in the country; again, because out in the farms and fields a rat or two is not out of place. How about a wizard family that has children, because it a lot easier to make yourself endearing to naive children than to jaded adults. Even better how about a poor wizard family with children where one or more adults work for the Ministry of Magic. Conclusion, Peter thought about the possibilities and the Weasley family seemed perfect. They lived in the country, so Wormtail could live out of sight like an ordinary rat, and also find plenty to eat while he thought of way to get himself taken in by the Weasley family. Over time, Wrntail made himself more visible to the kids while staying out of the sight of adults. He did cute tricks, he did things to show the kids he was a tame, clean, and intelligent rat, and eventurally the kids sneaked some food out to him. Over time, the kids became friendly with him and made him a pet. At the time, although I confess I haven't done a detailed time analysis, it's safe to assume Ron and Ginny weren't born, the twin were infants, Percy was a very small boy, and all the older brothers were off at school. So essentually Percy was alone around the house, his brothers were gone, Molly was busy fighting with the infant twins, who I suspect were not an easy pair to deal with even as infants. So Percy is off on his own for most of the day having to make his own friends (mostly imaginary) and entertain himself. It would have been very easy for a cute, clean rat to get his attention and slowly ingratiate himself to Percy. Once Percy had an affection for the Rat, Molly would not want to get rid of Percy's only friend and playmate. Bada-bing, bada boom... Percy has a pet and Wormtail has the perfect home. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Oct 28 21:39:01 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:39:01 -0000 Subject: The case for Dudley, the Latent Wizard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83747 I wrote this post some time ago, but never actually posted it, with the recent discussion on Petunia, it seemed the right time to post it. JKR has told us that someone will find magic late in life. To date, there appear to be only 4 people who could credibly find this gift. They are Filch, Arabella Figg, Dudley and Petunia. There are of course many Muggles mentioned in the Potterverse. It is certainly possible that any one of these could develop or find latent magical powers. But, whilst we can hypothesise that Aunt Marge or Colonel Fubster might suddenly magically blow things up or survive being thrown out of a window, so far, neither these two, or any of the other characters have contributed much to the story. Whilst finding that they are magical might make an enormous difference to them, it would not appear to make a great deal of difference to Harry. What would change if Filch could do magic? Filch could be quite dangerous. His squibness represents impotence to him. He hates the students who can do what he can not. And yet, IMO he is now so bitter, so thwarted, that I personally can not see the sudden emergence of magic prowess adding much to his character. He would continue to be unsavoury, warped and twisted. Arabella Figg might suddenly find magical powers, and in doing so, might save Harry's life. That would certainly add to the story. Yet, even if this were to be the case, it would only be an extension of her role to date. Arabella's role of protector to Harry might have been hidden, but it was none-the-less there, and it was in fact her quick thinking that saved Harry from expulsion after he had fought off the Dementors at the beginning of OoP. If Arabella hadn't been suspicious of Mundungus' reliability, then she would not have stationed her cat as a secondary guard. She would not have witnessed the attack and thus provided Harry with an independent, if not wholly credible witness in his hearing. Nor, would she have been able to advise Mundungus to contact Dumbledore PDQ. If Dumbledore had not acted so swiftly, Harry would have been expelled from Hogwarts, his wand would have been destroyed ? or Harry would have gone AWOL. The impact on Harry if Petunia or Dudley were to access latent magical powers, could be immense. Petunia has spent all of Harry's life hating him for his magical ability and I suspect his potential for destroying her mundane existence. If Petunia were to discover that she had magical powers, she might have to reassess her whole relationship with Harry and the world that he belongs to. But, Petunia, like Filch is *so* bitter, so constrained and damaged by her earlier life that it is not hard to imagine her continuing to deny her magical ability. I cannot see her buying a beginners guide to magic and learning how to use a wand. She might involuntarily act to save Dudley, or maybe (in my dreams) Harry, but that I suspect is all. Now, Dudley finding he is a wizard is a different kettle of fish altogether. I can almost see Petunia re-enacting the parable of the wind and the sun. In the parable, the wind and sun have a competition to see who can remove a traveller's cloak the quickest. The wind tries to blow the cloak off. In fact, it blows so hard that the traveller is nearly swept off his feet, but clutches the cloak even tighter around him. The sun on the other hand shines down upon the traveller, who feeling rather hot, removes the cloak himself. The moral of the story being that you can *persuade* someone to do what you want by friendly action, rather than forcing them to. Thus, if Dudley ever showed signs of magical powers as a young child, he was dissuaded from trying to repeat the experience, by being indulged in every possible aspect of his existence. Harry on the other hand is "squashed" in an attempt to make him "normal". The attempt of course fails and Harry goes off to Hogwarts. Harry spent his life knowing that he's not normal. Normal kids aren't kept in cupboards and don't receive coat hangers as birthday presents. Harry will revel in his magical ability as it has become a way to express himself, something Petunia has always denied him. If Dudley found himself with magical ability? I like to assume that Dudley once did something "funny", and that it is Petunia's reaction to this that represents his worst memory. He might be aware of something strange, but just not feel the need to question it. Now, however, the position has changed. He is a teenager, and however indulged he is at home, he isn't truthful to his parents, and by lying to them already shows the potential to rebel. Power and potency is something that matters to Dudley. He is a bully, he likes to control, he likes to win. He has in the past shown a marked lack of self-control. I think if he were now to realise that he possessed magic powers he would be unable to resist the temptation of trying to use them. I think that the effect on Petunia would be momentous. It is not hard to assume that Petunia suffered terribly because of her sister's magical ability. We know she felt inferior, we know she lost her sister at a young age and we know that she got landed with her nephew. What we can suggest is that she also lost her parents because of Lily's magical involvement. For Petunia to witness Dudley discovering that he is a wizard would surely be one of her worst fears confirmed. I think that she would do almost *anything* to stop Dudley entering the WW. Now, I know people have questioned whether Dumbledore would prevent any child with magical abilities form entering Hogwarts. I would agree, that in normal circumstances, he wouldn't, but anything to do with Harry is a special case. If, Dumbledore thought that the only way he could keep Harry safe was to deny Dudley his place, then IMO, he would have done so. Think about what Dumbledore says:- "What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in a vague future, if in the here and now, you were alive, and well, and happy" OoP UK edition p. 739. Now, it could be argued that Dumbledore only feels like this after he has got to know Harry, but if Harry's importance to him is such that he could let others die, then he could certainly deprive Dudley of a place at Hogwarts. This is particularly so knowing how anti- wizards, Dudley's parents are. Yep, Dudley could be magical and might not know - yet. Ali From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 28 19:51:49 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:51:49 -0000 Subject: tTuchy-Feely Armchair Psychologist (was: No Sex...We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jana Fisher" wrote: > Now Me, Jana: > This reminds me of an interview I watched with JKR and the screenplay > writer on disc two of Chamber of Secrets where she states that if she > wants the reader to know anything she uses Hermione as her > introduction character. She has purposely introduced information to > us by Hermione saying I read about it in Hogwarts, A History > [paraphrasing] etc. I think this is another example of that, for the > younger generation of male readers that are not as experienced in the > feelings of the female population. Geoff: I haven't got the DVD immediately to hand but, in the CBBC interview with her and Stephen Kloves, she said that she used both Hermione and Dumbledore to fill in information in the books because it was in character with both of them to present information naturally. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 22:18:33 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:18:33 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > I think the fact that Snape refuses to break bread with the people > with whom he's fighting is an extremely sad commentary on the state of the OOP. The order seems to spend as much time dealing with infighting and bruised feelings as with the business of saving the world. The order is not operating as a cohesive unit, and I think Dumbledore is to blame. > > > Getting back to Snape, while I doubt much good would have been done > had Dumbledore ordered him to take meals with the order, it might > have been helpful for him to point out to Severus that he is > currenly spending more quality time with people he purports to hate then with his supposed allies. > Laura: Although I'm very happy to join in heaping blame on DD, who I think richly deserves it, I wonder how much of this situation with Snape is just Severus being Severus. If he didn't have to be present at the staff table at Hogwarts he might very well choose not to eat with them either. It must be his innate shyness...or perhaps he's just very finicky about other people's table manners. *grin* Also, I think that the challenge for any group is getting along with the people who are on your side. It's easy to take a stand against people you've already decided you disagree with. It's the ones who are your allies that are difficult to live with, exactly because you have to live with them. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Oct 28 22:28:45 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:28:45 -0000 Subject: The case for Dudley, the Latent Wizard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83750 ALi wrote: Sorry to snip your entire post, but I'm not really responding to any one part, but rather the entire idea of Dudley possessing some unknown magical abilities. My argument against Dudley-the-wizard comes from the Dementor in the alley scene. Harry quite clearly hears the dementors, and is able to ascertain their positions, even though he is unable to see in the darkness. Dudley, however, runs straight into one of them. This implies to me that Dudley was unable to see or hear the dementors, only sense them, which agrees with our previous knowledge that Muggles cannot see dementors but sense their presence. However, this makes me wonder about the concept of developing magical abilities later in life. Does it mean that some character will suddenly be able to make use of previously unknown or suppressed abilities? Or will the person actually gain abilities that they had not previously had at all (i.e. a Muggle getting affected by a spell or potion that gives or transfers magical powers)? I never considered the latter possibility before, but if it were true Dudley would still be a candidate. And it would be an interesting parallel to the Voldemort-to-Harry power tranfer. -Corinth From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Oct 28 22:38:34 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:38:34 -0000 Subject: That's what friends are for (was "Armchair Psychologist ") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83751 ----Suzanne wrote: > I couldn't understand why Hermione took it > upon herself to push Harry into a relationship > with Cho. Harry seemed perfectly fine to admire > her from afar, and neither one of them was really > ready for romantic relationship at this point. That's what friends are for. :) ----Salit wrote: > I think Hermione has some feelings towards Harry > as well, which is partly why she (subconsciously?) > wrecked his date with Cho. For someone as > understanding of the situation as she was, how > could she not figure out that Cho was Jealous of > her relations with Harry . . . . Had she told > Harry why she wanted him to meet her (talk to a > reporter), he could have explained all that to Cho > and avoided the explosion, but Hermione asked him > to meet her during a date with another girl. Also *just* like a friend to get competitive and screw up the relationship he might never have landed in but for her. :) Although I'm trying to be a little funny here, I do have an actual point: To me, at least, these kinds of foibles and fallibilities and good intentions gone awry are what make the characters real. Rowling has a talent at portraying characters in depth without spending a long time spelling out the details of what is going on in everyone's head. Reading about "practically perfect in every way" Hermione may irritate you, or not. If it does, though, it is likely because you are irritated by people like Hermione, not because she in any way falls out of character. From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 22:43:06 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:43:06 -0000 Subject: The Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the whole "phoenix" > theme, and how it may affect the outcome of the series. > >>Snip<<...Fawkes has been looking badly for days. This > seems to relate to Harry's noticing (throughout the series, but > particularly in Book 5) that Dumbledore is looking older and frailer than he has ever seen him before. Is Dumbledore about to burst into flames (metaphorically or literally)?? And let's not forget Dumbledore's work with Nicholas Flamel on the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone, and his comment to Harry that "there are some things that are worse than death". He seems to know more than he is telling about what those things are. > > And how does all of this affect Harry? Can't seem to put my finger on > it yet, but I still feel there is to be some rebirth of Dumbledore through Harry (again, either metaphorically or literally) by the series' end. > ::Entropy:: , who apologizes for posing questions without actually > answering any of them. *****\(@@)/***** Good question! It is possible that Dumbledore's relationship to the Phoenix means rebirth of some sort for him and Harry may just be the instrument that makes it happen. I do feel that his comment to Harry about "some things are worse than death" is in direct reference to Voldemort. I think he did die at Godric's Hollow that night and he is now "living" the "worse than death" part. He is only partially successful in everything he does - he keeps being thwarted by Harry and Dumbledore. (This doesn't mean that he isn't a real threat, though) He may have figured out how to get a body back but I bet it ends up only being temporary and that, like his other ventures, also fails on him, Harry's blood or no...... It seems to me that Voldemort is still weak - he depends on his Death Eaters and Wormtail to do most of what he needs to do. He certainly isn't powerful enough to go it alone. I think Old Magic will be the thing to defeat him and Dumbledore will have to give Harry what he needs to do it because I am convinced poor Dumbledore isn't going to make it past the next book. Just a couple of knuts and a kneazle! Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Oct 28 22:51:56 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:51:56 -0000 Subject: That's what friends are for (was "Armchair Psychologist ") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83753 Sorry, spastic mouse finger -- I meant to finish this up by saying that what makes the portrayals work without a lot of extroversion by the characters is that the psychology of their actions is fairly transparent, even when it is a bit complicated. Harry may be surprised by Cho's reactions, but the reader isn't. Nor are we really surprised that Harry *doesn't* understand. Ditto with Hermione and the centaurs. Much moreso than many fantasy/SF writers, Rowling develops characters fully enough that we can see a complicated situation from multiple points of view. -- Matt --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > ----Suzanne wrote: > > I couldn't understand why Hermione took it > > upon herself to push Harry into a relationship > > with Cho. Harry seemed perfectly fine to admire > > her from afar, and neither one of them was really > > ready for romantic relationship at this point. > > That's what friends are for. :) > > ----Salit wrote: > > I think Hermione has some feelings towards Harry > > as well, which is partly why she (subconsciously?) > > wrecked his date with Cho. For someone as > > understanding of the situation as she was, how > > could she not figure out that Cho was Jealous of > > her relations with Harry . . . . Had she told > > Harry why she wanted him to meet her (talk to a > > reporter), he could have explained all that to Cho > > and avoided the explosion, but Hermione asked him > > to meet her during a date with another girl. > > Also *just* like a friend to get competitive and > screw up the relationship he might never have landed > in but for her. :) > > Although I'm trying to be a little funny here, I do have an actual > point: To me, at least, these kinds of foibles and fallibilities and > good intentions gone awry are what make the characters real. > > Rowling has a talent at portraying characters in depth without > spending a long time spelling out the details of what is going on in > everyone's head. Reading about "practically perfect in every way" > Hermione may irritate you, or not. If it does, though, it is likely > because you are irritated by people like Hermione, not because she in > any way falls out of character. From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 23:06:09 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:06:09 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83754 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" > At the time, although I confess I haven't done a detailed time > analysis, it's safe to assume Ron and Ginny weren't born, the twin > were infants, Percy was a very small boy, and all the older brothers > were off at school. I agree with the rest of you theory, but this timeline doesn't make sense. Peter went rat a day after James and Lily were killed. JKR said Ron was born on March 1 so he would have been 20 months old. Given Angelina's birthday, even Ginny would have had to be at least 2 weeks old at the time to be just one school year behind Harry. The twins would have been toddlers. It doesn't really matter though. At 5, Percy would have been the prime target. The twins would have been too young to convince their parents to let them have a pet. Besides, they probably would have tried to make him explode. bibphile From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Tue Oct 28 23:36:40 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:36:40 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83755 bboy_mn: >...although I confess I haven't done a detailed time > analysis, it's safe to assume Ron and Ginny weren't born, the twin > were infants, Percy was a very small boy, and all the older brothers > were off at school. So essentually Percy was alone around the house, > his brothers were gone, Molly was busy fighting with the infant twins, > who I suspect were not an easy pair to deal with even as infants. So > Percy is off on his own for most of the day having to make his own > friends (mostly imaginary) and entertain himself. > bboy_mn ______________ Now I must say, even if all your message was quite a good speculation about Scabbers, what was very good was the insight of Percy's childhood. Even if as the next reply from Bbiph says taht at a calculated timeline Ron and Ginny would be babies, well, who wants to play with babies? Percy was indeed a very lonely child, and that maight explain why he thinks he is such an adult, his reverence with order and power (as he had none as a child, older brothers and the twins below). His need to be diferent, above, respected, and in comand, to be clever, righteous etc, of which he gets all wrong. Thanks for this lovely insight into Percy's childhood, it made me feel sorry for him, for the first time (the big head) Nineve From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Oct 29 00:02:23 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:02:23 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83756 1) How effective is the atmosphere-building in this chapter? What is the > reader's initial reaction to Grimmauld place? Are there any features which lift > it beyond being a stock gothic horror setting? How effective is it when we > realise that this is Sirius' family home? I think this chapter set the tone for the feeling I got of a clinging claustrophobia. I don't mean simply the physical setting, even though every scene set in that house gave me a feeling of damp, closed-off, oppressive gloom. I had the feeling of being closed in, of freedoms being removed, and that continued once the kids went back to school. All of Umbridge's decrees putting limits on allowable behavior and the freedom to express one's opinions gave me the same sort of feeling. And discovering that this was Sirius' family home put a different spin on things. > 2) How convincing are the characterisations of Harry, Ron and Hermione? Does > Harry's anger ring true? Harry's gotten a lot of grief from a lot of people for his anger in this book. I think in this instance, it was perfectly understandable. He'd been kept in the dark, he had to fight off Dementors, and after that, he's still kept in the dark, he knows his friends are someplace where they might know what's going on, while he's kept in the dark, he is threatened with expulsion from school...So when he finally gets to where everyone else is, he has a golden opportunity to explode, with the additional satisfaction of exploding at the people who would have a clue as to why he feels this way. Sure, not all of his comments are fair or balanced, but he was angry and needed to get all of this out of his system. > 5) Is any light thrown on the workings of the Fidelius Charm, by which > Number Twelve seems to be protected? A number of people have responded to this, and it seems like this use of the Charm is giving rise to even more questions. My bet is that this is going to be one of those things that will never be completely explained. > 6) Hermione says, of the MoM's threat to expel Harry, 'You really shouldn't > be, not if they abide by their own laws, there's no case against you.' Perhaps Hermione is influenced by her Muggle background, where, as far as she knows, the government does follow its own laws and does give rights to its citizens that are not arbitrarily ignored (or, if the government screws up, someone is there to call them on it). Although she knows that wizards have been imprisoned without trials, and people like Lucius Malfoy seem to have an inordinate amount of influence, and the only daily newspaper prints lies, she still seems to have a certain faith, at this point, that the rules will be followed. > 8) We learn that there is a house elf in residence, yet the house has been > uncared for. Should Kreacher's family loyalty not ensure that he keeps the > house in order for whenever the rightful owner returns? In Kreacher's case, did he assume that no one would ever return, since the rightful owner was imprisoned for life and everyone else in the immediate family was dead? And, thus figured there was no need to keep the place clean? Is a solitary elf expected to continued to work in the house until s/he keels over dead of old age in a situation like this? Had there not been the portrait of Mrs. Black for Kreacher to worship, would he have, of his own volition, gone to another Black relatve, like Narcissa Malfoy, and offered his services? > 12) Why does JKR make the point that Snape never eats at the house? I think mainly to keep a distance between him and the other members of the Order. For the reader, it adds to the question of whether Snape is really one of the good guys, or if he's playing his own game. JKR also makes the point that Bill Weasley doesn't like Snape. Why bother to mention that at all, since Bill is barely there? > 13) Why do the members of the Order apparently leave en masse via the front > door, given the secrecy which surrounded Harry's arrival? Do we assume that > the house is protected by anti-apparition charms and the like? How will they > have left without attracting attention (we can assume that Dumbledore is back in > possession of his Put-outer)? Harry's arrival was not all that secret. A bunch of people on brooms flew out of the sky and landed in a small square. In the middle of London. Before Mad-Eye used the Put-Outer to put out the street lights. Not exactly the most unobtrusive way of slipping into town. Anyone passing by or looking out of a window could have seen them. But, I think that this is something that's not going to have an effect on the plot, so it's a loose end or a niggling detail that JKR didn't bother addressing. Marianne From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 29 00:02:23 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:02:23 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83757 > > wrote: > > > Does any one knows where Percy got Scabbers? > > So, how did > > >Scabbers become a pet, from a filthy pest? Arya wrote: > > I'm not real sure but I'd bet that the name "scabbers" indicates > > that Peter's missing/severed finger(Wormtail's toe) was still a > > bit "scabby" when Percy got him. wrote:(again) > Sorry, Arya, but I meant where Percy got the pet, nome the name. I > want to know how Scabbers/Peter/whatever come to live with Percy. Arya writes again: My point is that I would guess that whenever it was that Percy gained the rat with the scabby toes that he then called "Scabbers" might have been one of two (ok, three) things: 1-shortly after the Sirius Incident where Peter cut off his finger. This dates Percy as being about 5 years old at the time. I forget in PoA how long Percy was supposed to have had Scabbers (no book here, sorry). 2-longer past the Finger severing incident which means it really should have healed and maybe it wasn't a simple slice and dice or a simple severing charm--maybe the finger was cut by something more sinister that left a curse on it that prevented it from healing properly. 3- *sigh* I guess it could always just be the fact that Percy is a bit off and thought "Scabbers" was a cool name. But, ug, why? Arya From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 00:30:57 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:30:57 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83758 > > > > 13) Why do the members of the Order apparently leave en masse via the front door, given the secrecy which surrounded Harry's arrival? Do we assume that the house is protected by anti-apparition charms and the like? Marianne > Harry's arrival was not all that secret. A bunch of people on brooms flew out of the sky and landed in a small square. In the middle of London. Before Mad-Eye used the Put-Outer to put out the street lights. Not exactly the most unobtrusive way of slipping into town. Anyone passing by or looking out of a window could have seen them. Laura: Marianne's post made me wonder if one of the reasons the Order chose Grimmauld Place was that it was in a somewhat iffy neighborhood, perhaps the kind of place where the residents purposely don't take notice of each other's comings or goings. "So people show up in the middle of the night apparently from nowhere? Well, that's their business, not ours." And once the Order members are in and satisfied that no one from the DEs has followed them, they can leave freely. It doesn't much matter if the neighbors see them-they won't pay attention anyhow. Does that make sense? From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 00:37:40 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:37:40 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83759 Without Sirius, then Wormtail would not have a life-debt to Harry. Pressumably, this life-debt will play a huge part in the coming books. If Sirius hadn't escaped and gone after Wormtail, then Wormtail may have just spent the rest of the saga in the form of the rat. In which case, he would never have returned to Voldemort and helped him resurrect himself. In which case Voldemort would still be in vapor form in a forest in Albania somewhere. Sirius is a *very* intrinsic character, as without his actions, Voldemort's return would be vastly different, or perhaps, V would not return at all. Of course, in that case there would be no plot :-) So therefore the plot relies heavily on Sirius's actions. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 01:08:37 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:08:37 -0000 Subject: Fidelius (Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83760 KathyK, clasping her hands in delight: Ah, Secret-Keeping. One of my very favorite subjects... Jen Reese: >>>Seeing the Fidelius in action tells me that charm alone would be unlikely to safeguard the Potters at Godric's Hollow. If a Secret Keeper can give the location verbally, in writing, possibly someone could even extract the information with veritaserum or through Legilimens....the information isn't that protected. I always pictured the information as somehow being locked inside a person and there was a convoluted way to extract it, but Dumbledore has obviously informed many people of Grimmauld Place, so it's not that extensive of a process.<<< KathyK: I, too, have wondered about the use of Legilimency on one who is a Secret Keeper. The use of the piece of paper to divulge the secret makes this a very sticky and confusing subject. But I think it would be difficult if not impossible for a Legilimens to find out the secret for two reasons. 1. PoA, US Paperback 205: "The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret- Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find--unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." I believe the key word above is "chooses." The Secret-Keeper must choose to give away the information. If someone were trying to find out information using Legilimency, or Veritaserum for that matter, I don't think it would work as the Secret-Keeper has not chosen to give away the secret. Otherwise there are too many ways that another person could learn the information from an unwitting Secret-Keeper. Conscious choice makes more sense to me at any rate. This fits with the notes. The Secret-Keeper writes down the information for another person. They have chosen to give away the secret. Using this manner may be dangerous, and it could fall into the hands of an unintended recipient, but for Dumbledore and the location of the Order I think it's a calculated risk. 2. OoP, US 530, 531: "Only Muggles talk of 'mind reading.' The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure." "It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly. The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him." According to Snape, Legilimency is not an easy thing to do. He's also very clear that this is not the same thing as mind reading. >From his description of Legilimency it seems to me it would be nearly impossible to dig out the Secret even if it could be divulged in this manner. Voldemort can tell when people are lying to him, but can he reach into someone's mind and find the correct information? Snape doesn't say he can do that. So even the most skilled Legilimens would have difficulty "reading" someone for specific information. So I think the charm is complex and difficult and that it's not easy to get the information out of the Secret-Keeper. Inge wrote: >>It doesn't make a lot of sense that Harry had to memorise the 'password' unless he would need to use it again. Otherwise he could just read the words out loud and then destroy the paper - or give it back to Moody. Then why is it that the other members don't have to say the words to get in? And when Harry uses the fire in Umbridges office one would think that the fireplace at Grimmauld Place 12 had a charm on it as well so that not anyone who just says "Kitchen, Grimmauld Place 12" can get their head inside Sirius' kitchen. But Harry doesn't need a 'password' for that.<< Gorda wrote: >But the secret had already been disclosed to him, so he could use the Floo network. Presumably until the secret keeper tells you the secret, you are not even aware that it exists, so you wouldn't even know that a 12 Grimmauld Place existed (remember on the street there's a number 11 and a number 13, until Harry *thinks* about what he read. Reading it wasn't enough.)< KathyK: Well, I don't know. I'm sure *someone* other than the Order members knows there is a such thing as 12 Grimmauld Place. Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange come to mind. I think instead of blinking the house out of existence so that no one has ever heard of it, the place just becomes hidden. So Bellatrix and Narcissa could head over to Grimmauld Place knowing there was a number 12, determined to find it. But when they arrived they'd just be very confused where the houses go right from 11 to 13 and they'd have to wonder why they can't find a house they knew perfectly well existed. Narcissa must know Number 12 still exists, particularly, since Kreacher paid her a little visit. Gorda: >It raises the question about Godric's Hollow: presumably Peter had told Sirius where to find the Potters, because when he finds Peter's place empty he gets a bad feeling and goes looking for hte Potters. So other close friends (Remus, DD, Hagrid?) had been told the secret, before Peter went blabbering to LV.< KathyK: Just some random comments on who I think was told. Sirius obviously knew. It was his idea to change to Peter, he was keeping and eye on Peter, and Sirius and James would have wanted Sirius to be in the know. Besides, if Peter didn't tell Sirius, it would have drawn suspicion to him. Peter told Sirius in person. Any others he would have had to inform by writing as Dumbledore did in OoP. I think they also told Dumbledore, because it just seems like a smart thing to do. I go back and forth with Hagrid. He was the first on the scene ready to take Harry to Dumbledore, so he may have known and that's why he responded so quickly. However, when the Potters died, I presume the charm was broken and Dumbledore could have told him to go get Harry and if Hagrid didn't know where the Potters lived, Dumbledore would be free to tell him. Lupin was not in on the big secret, IMO. According to Lupin and Sirius in PoA, the others suspected Lupin as the traitor. Even if he couldn't tell anyone their location, I don't know that letting someone they thought might be a spy for Voldeomrt in on the secret would be the smartest idea. Gorda: >But after the place got blown up, did the charm still exist? Otherwise, how could the police come to the place? Hagrid says he went to get Harry before the Muggles started swarming around... is he just assuming here? Or does he know that the Fidelius Charm is lifted after the people it's protecting die? Wouldn't little Harry be still protected by Fidelius?< KathyK: If only we knew for sure if Hagrid was in on the secret or not. It would answer many questions. I tend to believe Hagrid didn't know until James and Lily died. That is until the question of Harry comes up. Then Hagrid jumps onto the list of people who would have to know. Well that was very indecisive and repetetive, wasn't it? I was only going to write a short response, I swear! KathyK (lauging at herself) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 01:25:01 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:25:01 -0000 Subject: Percy's reaction. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > I think it's the same case with Percy. JKR is going to > make him seem like such a stupid git, get the readers to absolutely > hate him, and then make him do something heroic, like save his > family. > > Percy didn't do anything that was against what was right. He was > mislead, fed with lies, and he actually believed those lies, and > impressed his opinions on his younger brother while walking out on > his own family - but what will he do now that he finds he was wrong? > > IMHO Percy will probably die saving his family just when we (the > readers) think we couldn't hate him more. > > Honestly, that would make me cry. *runs out of the room all teary- > eyed* > > Any thoughts? Reactions? Incoherent obscenities? > > ----------nkittyhawk I've been afraid that is what will happen for a while now. Before OoP, he amused me because he seemed like an eccentric relative that everyone puts up with because he is family. In OoP though, I hated him. He was mean, ambitious and self-serving. (No, I don't think it was an act because he was spying for Dumbledore.) But there has to be a reason he was in Gryffindor instead of Slytherin besides the family history. "Where dwell the brave at heart, Their daring, nerve and chivalry Set Gryffindors apart" according to the Sorting Hat (PS/SS). Brave, daring, nerve, chivalry. We haven't seen them in Percy yet, but there must be more to him that even he doesn't know about himself. Ravenclaw Bookworm From pasnow at nipha.com Wed Oct 29 01:56:07 2003 From: pasnow at nipha.com (mrnipha) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:56:07 -0000 Subject: First prediction's happened, third possible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Paul Smith" wrote: > Hey everyone, > > Thanks for the replies I got, I just thought I'd expand a tiny bit > more and remind anyone who missed it of the main bits. > > > Just been looking through the FAQs for OotP and a thought occured > to me when looking at the ones concerned with the prophecy. Are we > > being lured by JKR into thinking Trelawny's first prediction is > more important than it actually is? > Anyone else? Has the first prophecy already happened? Has it not? > Someone put me in my place, that way I might be able to develop it a > bit further. > > Love flavoured Beans for all, Suze xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I posted back in July (message #70383) along similar lines. I will just summarize here. In my opinion, only the first part of the 1st and 2nd prophesies has occurred. Voldemort was vanquished by baby Harry, and his servant (Peter aka Wormtail) has escaped and aided his master to rise again. The second part of each of the prophesies is ongoing or still to come. We have not seen Voldemort "greater and more terrible than he was" yet as the 2nd prophesy predicts, nor has one died "at the hand of the other" yet. I agree that a 3rd prophesy is unlikely unless it is self-contained in the first part of Book Six. I envision the second part of the 2nd prophesy coming to fruition in Book Six, and the second part of the 1st prophesy in Book Seven. I definitely do not think that the 1st prophesy is complete. The link between Harry and Voldemort is why "neither can live while the other survives", and I do think that it is crucial to the entire story arc. There are many interesting possibilities to explore. MrNipha From leon at adatofamily.com Wed Oct 29 01:50:13 2003 From: leon at adatofamily.com (Leon Adato) Date: 28 Oct 2003 20:50:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The case for Dudley, the Latent Wizard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1067392213.26620.318.camel@localhost,> No: HPFGUIDX 83763 On Tue, 2003-10-28 at 16:39, Ali wrote: > > Yep, Dudley could be magical and > might not know - yet. > > Ali While I had previously been firmly in the "Petunia, saving her Dudder's life, does act of magic which shakes her world toward ruin", I think your argument has real merit. Taking this a couple of steps further, let's say that Dudley has done magic in the past, perhaps close in time to when Harry arrived. Petunia might have picked up on this, but not mentioned it to Vernon. When the letter (and Harry, for that matter) arrived, Petunia struck a deal - keep Harry but either ignore (or better-still, somehow mask) Dudley's abilities. Now let's say that Dudley does some magic, and realizes (because of Harry's influence these last few years) what it is. What he might have chalked up to luck or coincidence is exposed for what it really is. Now our Dudders, he's not exactly afraid of power, is he? Once he knows what he's got, he's not likely to ignore it and hope it will go away. No, he's going to LORD it over those around him. I can imagine the scenes - Dudley, both guile-less in the ways of the WW and drunk on the promise of even greater powers from Death-eaters. Do you suppose that the arrangement about "safe as long as he comes to live with you" has a loophole - something akin to a vampire's need to be invited into a house? Into Privet drive storms Lord Voldemort, intent on finally getting revenge. Dudley is at his side (right next to Wormtail, no doubt). Harry, of course, makes an escape. That's when it really hits the fan. Lord Voldemort turns on Dudley, intent on punishing him for his failure. Now I can perceive two possible outcomes. In one, we are witness to the devastation and full impact of true evil. Harry will experience firsthand what Arthur described in GoF, coming home to find the Dark Mark hovering over (the remains of) his house. But on the other hand, everything I've described doesn't exactly match someone doing magic later in life. In my scenario, Dudley has always been able to do magic, but either been dissuaded or blocked. No, to truly match up, someone would have to save Dudley from himself. Someone would have to do something so unexpected, so completely off the wall that it would take all the death-eaters and the (second) greatest wizard in an age completely by surprise. Yep. I think I'm sticking with my Petunia theory after all. -- Leon Adato =============== You are never too old to be what you might have been. -George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans), novelist (1819-1880) http://www.adatofamily.com adatole at yahoo.com phone: 440-542-9659 fax: 305-832-2818 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 02:06:23 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 02:06:23 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: Thanks for clearing up the muddled knowledge of an American. My confusion basically lay in the fact that in America we have no figure-head head of state, because the president is given actual power, and your post helped to clear that up for me, so thank you! Bookworm: In political terms, the US has both a Head of State and a Head of Government - they just both happen to be the same person (the President). In the UK, France, and other countries, the Head of State and Head of Government are two different people: the Queen and Prime Minister in the UK, and the Prime Minister and the President in France (if I remember my French political system lectures correctly - it was a long time ago ). The Minister of Magic would be the Head of Government. Is he also the Head of State, or since JKR is British, does she unconsciously include the Queen without really talking or thinking about it? Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 02:22:58 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 02:22:58 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83765 How does this sound? When putting clothes into the laundry, the clothes are placed either in the laundry basket or just dropped on the floor (I have teenagers too!). There is no intent to discard them. The owner just moves a personal item from one place (his/her body) to another (the dirty laundry). House-elves then handle the articles of clothing as personal belongings of the master. When Lucius Malfoy "gave" Dobby the sock, he was intending to discard the sock. He certainly wouldn't think of keeping a sweaty, smelly sock from a boy he hates. In fact, he didn't *think* about what he was doing in discarding an article of clothing around his house-elf. No matter what the relationship between Harry and Dobby, and Harry and the Malfoys, it was Malfoy's *intent* to discard the sock that makes his act differ from tossing aside dirty laundry. Does that help? Or did I just wash the darks with the whites in hot water?? Ravenclaw Bookworm From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Oct 29 04:38:55 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:38:55 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: tTuchy-Feely Armchair Psychologist (was: No Sex...We're British) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12639196194.20031028203855@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83766 Hi, Tuesday, October 28, 2003, 10:19:28 AM, slgazit wrote: > That is true. But JKR is contrained by the fact that she chose to > tell the story from a single (Harry's) POV. Yes, very much so. I do wish she had chosen a different POV sometimes. > How do you get > background > information or the POV of other characters if you only hear one > person. Well, she's done it quite well with a multitude of characters through Harry's POV before. It doesn't have to be Hermione all the time. There's Prof. McGonagall, Molly, Dumbledore... Hermione just seemed like such an odd choice, after seeing her NOT being sensitive to others feelings before. And all of a sudden she had it all figured out, at least when it came to Cho's and Harry's feelings. Otherwise she was still good old Hermione, socially not all that adept. >... though I still have hope that her > overconfidence >> will cause her some problems in future books. > It already has - see the incident with the centaurs. But in the end everything worked out again for Hermione. No real consequences to deal with, and since we only get Harry's thoughts, we don't know if and what Hermione learned from it. > I did not see Hermione "pushing" Harry. All she did was get out of > the way and, more importantly, get Ron out of the way :-), when Cho > was approaching Harry - which is what Harry wanted. In my opinion, she did push things a bit, bringing up Cho not being able to keep her eyes off Harry, asking impatiently if Harry isn't planning to have another date with her and just generally not leaving Harry to make his own decisions about what to do when. She didn't just silently get out of the way, she was an active participant. > She was very > curious about the progress of the relationship and, I suspect, > shared > the same confusion of Cho's (liking two boys), which is why she > understood Cho's feelings so well - she had some of the same > herself. Not sure if I believe that. She almost seemed to live vicariously through that relationship, maybe because she wished for something to happen in her own life ;) I don't see Hermione's situation as similar to Cho's. Cho lost her first (I think) boyfriend, and I don't really get the feeling Hermione likes Harry romantically. > While I believe JKR is setting us up for a RH-ship, I think Hermione > has some feelings towards Harry as well, which is partly why she > (subconsciously?) wrecked his date with Cho. You mean the meeting with Rita on Valentine's day? How could Hermione have known beforehand when she would receive the reply? And unfortunately Hermione has always had a tendency to leave people out of her plans/findings until the last moment. > For someone as > understanding of the situation as she was, how could she not figure > out that Cho was Jealous of her relations with Harry (especially as > Krum had the same problem the year before). > Had she told Harry why > she wanted him to meet her (talk to a reporter), he could have > explained all that to Cho and avoided the explosion, but Hermione > asked him to meet her during a date with another girl. Why would she > do that if she wanted that relsationship to work? She blunders often in situations like this (her agenda is more important than anybody else's plans), and that's why I don't understand JKR choosing her to explain Cho's feelings sometimes, and ignoring them at other times. I don't believe Hermione was thinking about anyone's budding relationships and how to ruin them here. I think she thought about nothing but her big plan to use Rita to write an article about Harry. This was the Hermione we've seen throughout the books and didn't surprise me at all. I do like the little scenes where she is all tough Hermione, and then does something nice despite herself. They seem much more believable, maybe because it's show, and not tell in those cases. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Wed Oct 29 07:36:45 2003 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:36:45 +1300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031029193119.02247bf0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 83767 At 18:03 28/10/2003 +0000, you wrote: > ::Entropy:: wrote. > >And how does all of this affect Harry? Can't seem to put my finger on >it yet, but I still feel there is to be some rebirth of Dumbledore >through Harry (again, either metaphorically or literally) by the >series' end. Perhaps Harry will replace Dumbledore as the "only one >he ever feared" in Voldemort's eyes. (I am of the belief that Harry >has greater powers than anyone realizes, and that it was his unbridled >powers which actually caused the destruction and incineration of >Grimmauld Place. Yes, Harry "rose" from the ashes of Grimmauld Place!!). > >::Entropy:: , who apologizes for posing questions without actually >answering any of them. Tanya here. This activated my interest. So, I went online to see what I could discover. Unfortunately I didn't discover too much new of the theme of The Phoenix. In Chinese culture it is said that the phoenix is both yin and yang, light and dark. Now I am not sure what culture JKR is basing the creation of Fawkes on. But This could make things very interesting. The Phoenix also symbolizes immortality, resurrection and life after death. Now when Dumbledore named the order, Order of the Phoenix, I feel he meant it to last forever, and could never be fully killed off. In this mythology, there are several different stories, depending on location. Now the connections between Dumbledore, Harry and Fawkes. This is a tricky one, I don't have any answers either, but its fun checking it out. However, regarding Harry and Dumbledore. It is true that Harry has a bit of LV in him (dark). But I am wondering about the light part of the equation. He might have enough as it stands now but I wonder if the balance will be Dumbledore will willing and knowingly put a bit of him in Harry, and that will create the balance as LV unwittingly put a bit of himself in Harry. At the beginning of the series when Dumbledore is waiting at Privet Drive, Mc Gonagall, (spelling sorry) replies when Dumbledore says that LV has powers he will never have. She says that Dumbledore is just too noble to use them. Now this would fit with Dumbledore having a connection to Fawkes, having the knowledge, but making the choice. Anyway, that is enough for me tonight. Look forward to figuring out a bit more. Tanya From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Oct 29 08:13:27 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:13:27 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83768 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: >>> Laura: > > Marianne's post made me wonder if one of the reasons the Order chose > Grimmauld Place was that it was in a somewhat iffy neighborhood, > perhaps the kind of place where the residents purposely don't take > notice of each other's comings or goings. "So people show up in the > middle of the night apparently from nowhere? Well, that's their > business, not ours." And once the Order members are in and satisfied > that no one from the DEs has followed them, they can leave freely. > It doesn't much matter if the neighbors see them-they won't pay > attention anyhow. Does that make sense? June: I got the distinct and purely subjective sense of a couple of particular neighbourhoods in London here. I'd be interested to hear the views of anyone else who knows London about this. My geographical siting of 12 Grimmauld Place was (for no other reason but that I know them fairly well) either Hackney in North East London or Stoke Newington - similarly located and virtually next door. Both these areas are full of large victorian properties which are how shall I put it? Run down. Ever so slightly seedy. Laura's comment about people not taking notice of goings on was what prompted me to think a bit further about this. Stoke Newington (FYI) was the home of England's only home grown terrorist group in the 1970's - the Angry Brigade. This is not a place for a long digression on their activities, but certainly this neighbourhood I'm thinking of fits the description Laura has of a dodgy area where people choose not to pay too many attentions to the comings and goings around them. "Oh, we thought they were just students". I also used to live in a decidedly dodgy neighbourhood in Newcastle upon Tyne and one of the things I remembered was that when you hear a noise or commotion outside at night - you DO NOT look to see what is going on. Perhaps this is the kind of neighbourhood that houses 12 Grimmauld Place and for this reason was chosen by a rather "eccentric" old family intent on protecting their privacy and certain aspects of their life from the prying eyes of others. Perhaps the apparent mob-handed departure of order members is a way of being "up for it" should they leave the premises and find they are attracting the wrong kind of attention. Snape may also need a certain amount of "cover" if he is involved in any spy activities. I should imagine that on emergence from a "safe house" you are particularly vulnerable. June From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Tue Oct 28 22:23:00 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:23:00 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The case for Dudley, the Latent Wizard References: Message-ID: <001101c39da2$0e4a02a0$f587aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83769 >Ali: > >Now, it could be argued that Dumbledore only feels like this after >he has got to know Harry, but if Harry's importance to him is such >that he could let others die, then he could certainly deprive Dudley >of a place at Hogwarts. This is particularly so knowing how anti- >wizards, Dudley's parents are. Yep, Dudley could be magical and >might not know - yet. Iggy here: I think this is the most plausible theory. I think we can also take this a step or two further to AFTER Dudley discovers he is a wizard. 1: Imagine the shock of him getting a letter that tells him he has been accepted to Hogwarts, much less the effect on his family. 2: Dudley is the same age as Harry, but he would probably be placed among the first years. This would be cause for a lot of ridicule and snickering by a number of the students who are the same age as him, but in their 6th year. (Especially from the Slytherins.) The bully has suddenly been reduced to the bullied. 3: Dudley is a bully, but like all bullies, he tends to only really indulge in it when he has the numbers on his side. At Hogwarts, he won't have the numbers behind him. You might see him being potentially befriended by Draco and Co., but I don't think so... Oh, they might pretend to in order to get some of the dirt on Harry, but they'd be laughing behind his back when they did this, and I think Dudley would be aware of this. 4: At Privet Drive ant the surrounding neighborhood, Dudley is king... he flourishes and is the big man (both literally and figuratively.) Hogwarts is where Harry is at his best, and Dudley knows this. Seeing how most people react to Harry could be very humbling for Dudley. 5: Hogwarts is where the wizards and witches are, and we know what's happened almost every time Dudley has met one. He's gotten a pig's tail, had his tongue enlarged and almost choked on it, Harry's godfather was a convicted killer, he's seen their living room laid to waste, and he's seen a band of wizards and witches threaten his father if Harry's not taken care of properly. And now he's going to get immersed in that world and be in a place where his friends and parents can't protect him. 6: What House would Dudley be put in? Slytherin would be the first guess, knowing Dudley's personality... but that house seems to only accept purebloods. Even if he ended up there, his life would be made miserable. He's a bully, so unless there's something we don't see, then Gryffindor isn't much of an option. He's not the quickest wit in the world and places more stock in brute strength than in brains, so Ravenclaw isn't likely either. So, we're left with either Hufflepuff, or Slytherin. (And I can almost guarantee that, should he make that 5% and get into Slytherin, Snape would make him sorry for it.) 7: There's no doubt that Voldemort would quickly learn that Dudley is Harry's cousin, if he doesn't know already. How would he react to that? Would he try to recruit Dudley? Manipulate him? Use him as bait? Try to kill him as well? And how would Dudley react to all of this? Well, I think that's enough to ponder for now... *grin* Iggy McSnurd From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 28 22:34:49 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:34:49 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grannybat84112" wrote: grannybat: > Geoff corrected me: > > > >--it's always bothered me that Tom > > > Riddle's mother died in the Muggle world.... Why didn't > > > she return to the Magical world after being rejected by her > > > child's father? She was a witch. She shouldn't have had to put up > > > with the fate of a "fallen woman...." > > > > > > Unless the Magical world's attitude toward out-of-wedlock births > > > is even more archaic and vicious than the Muggle world's. > Geoff: > > Perhaps I should point out that your argument is not upheld by > > evidence in canon: > > > > "'You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name for > > ever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin > > himself, through my mother's side? I, keep the name of a foul, > > common, Muggle who abandoned me even before I was born, just > > because he found out his /wife/ was a witch? (my emphasis)'" > > > > Tom Riddle to Harry (COS UK edition p.231) > Grannybat: > Blast. That's what I get for theorizing on the one book I don't have > in my possession right now. Thank you for catching that so quickly. > > All right, I'll leave the fate of unwed mothers in the Magical world > to fanfic until JKR gives me reason to take it up again. The question > remains: Why didn't Tom Riddle's mother return to the Magical world > before giving birth? > > Did she not even try? Did she try and was rejected? Was she > physically unable to go back? Geoff: I'm thinking aloud on my feet. Tom's mother died in childbirth. That is a good deal less common than it was in, say up to Edwardian times as Riddle would have been born round about 1926. Tom tells us that his father abandoned her when he discovered the WW connection, which implies at that time she was already pregnant. OK. As Grannybat has suggested, was she physically unable to go back? Had she been estranged from her family because she had married a Muggle? The Riddles were presumably living as Muggles. Perhaps the mother had a bad pregnancy and was ill? (My paternal grandmother died after the birth of my father's much younger brother in 1928 from septicaemia.) Perhaps, his father injured her physically. There are several possibilities here. Tom must have found out the details about his parents afterwards, because we are told in GOF that his father had been living with his parents at the Riddle house in Little Hangleton when TR was a teenager. I am assuming that he was the "teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale" (GOF p.9 UK edition). It must also have been round about the time of the COS incident because we are old that the mysterious deaths occurred half a century ago before Voldemort reoccupied it in 1992. This opens up several cans of worms. I am surprised that the Muggle orphanage allowed him to attend Hogwarts when he got his letter. How did he manage to trace his father in a time when information about true parents was usually held secret? When did he start to show magical powers? Right, I've provided my two pennyworth plus a whole row of coathooks for people to hang their theories on.... Over to you guys. Geoff From mookie1552 at aol.com Tue Oct 28 22:49:14 2003 From: mookie1552 at aol.com (Jennifer) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:49:14 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83771 In Percy's defense, I do not think until OoP did Percy have any trechery in his personality. I've said it before in a previous post, that I believe that Percy is under the imperius curse so I feel that his actions are not his own. Fudge maybe... But I do not think that him getting Scabbers as a child was the root of his evil and with the DE. Where Scabbers came from is a great question, and I have pondered it in the past. All of your explainations have been very good, but still I feel has not filled the void in my mind. If Scabbers was found on the Weasley farm, how did he get there in the first place? The Weasley farm is in a remote part of England, not too easy for a rat with one missing finger to get to, to have the chance of moving in with a wizarding family. The Weasley's do a have a great wizarding past, but in the lull of the years as Percy grew up, I feel that nothing was going on of importance for Scabbers to get information about. Arthur works for the Muggle Artifact department, not rich with the intelligence that Wormtail would want to know. If Scabbers wanted to get important MoM information, why wouldn't he just hide out in the MoM, surely as a rat he would go undetected in such a large place and be able to eavesdrop wherever he wanted. But I understand that he needed food and shelter. Shelter he would get at the MoM and food would be plentiful to find in the streets of London outside the MoM. But this does not solve the problem of how the Weasley's did wind up with Scabbers. I think Scabbers wound up with the Weasleys the same way as Hedwig with Harry and Crookshanks with Hermione. They bought him. If he was living on the streets of WW London, perchance he was caught and brought to the Magical Menagerie for sale. He's not an animal in the best condition so I'm sure he was a reasonable price, good enough for the Weasleys on a tight budget. I just think it was fate or a stroke of "bad" luck that he wound up with the Weasleys and makes an interesting twist down the line in WW history. --I dunno just a thought...Jen From nianya_c at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 21:01:20 2003 From: nianya_c at yahoo.com (nianya_c) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:01:20 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83772 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: Entropy Wrote: Sirius is gone after three books, and I'm still at a loss as to what he was ever doing there in the first place.... 1. As a father figure for Harry. 2. To help Harry get a better understanding of James. 3. To explain the workings of Azkaban. 4. To explain what happened on the night James/Lily were killed. It would have been interesting to hear Sirius's take on what happened,and it may have been enlightening. But he never really gave us much new info, other than letting us know that Peter Pettigrew was the real murderer. But that could have been explained by Peter himself. > So, the logical question now is: why *was* Sirius written in as an important character in three out of five books? There must be some reason for his presence, but I have to admit, I'm stumped. Unless we're going to see Sirius in Books 6 or 7, I can't imagine why JKR needed to create him in the first place, just to kill him off without any real "revelations" on his part. :: Entropy :: Nianya Replied..... That's why so many readers feel cheated from his untimely death. JKR built him up as a key character and then unceremoniously removed him. It only makes sense that he has to play a role in the last two books in some form or fashion. I think it's been discussed before, but IMHO he may now be the link to other dead characters for support, advice or maybe even future magical assistance. Nianya From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 02:22:03 2003 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 02:22:03 -0000 Subject: Drought Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83773 Does anyone else wonder whether the drought (or Spanish baggage strike) might have anything to do with the coming bad tidings/Voldemort's return/etc.? I know that one person wondered so, but wonder if anyone else has ideas. Probably the waterskiing budgie is safe not to worry about (unless it's another animagus or transfigured wizard!) smaragdina5 From smaragdina5 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 02:19:30 2003 From: smaragdina5 at yahoo.com (smaragdina5) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 02:19:30 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" wrote: > Does any one knows where Percy got Scabbers? If he was his pet before, > he must have got Scabbers somehow, didn't he know, the humungous > bighead, that it was "a common garden mouse", or was he in allegiance > with the Dark Side all along, the traitorous wizard. > Pets don't just appear out of nowhere, except cats, that is. But > there is a mouse in my bed, I just keep it there? I don't think so. > So, how did Scabbers become a pet, from a filthy pest? I'd like to find out the story of how Wormtail came to live with the Weasleys, and maybe we will. But your last line makes me see what makes it seem odd to you that Percy got Scabbers. Wild rats and mice are just that, wild, but there is a domestic kind that has been bred since the 1800s to be clean, docile, tame, and come in multiple fancy colors and fur types. We also have albino and hooded lab rat types. So, many people do keep these domestic rats and mice. Remember the magical rats for sale who stared at Scabbers at the Diagon Alley store where Crookshanks launched himself at the counter while the trio were there. (Some think that he was choosing Hermione on purpose... perhaps Wormtail might have placed himself to be chosen as Percy's pet, on that line... Of course, if Crookshanks was just being part Kneazle going after the infidel Wormtail on the counter that theory is out...) The Weasley elders or someone else easily might have obtained a pet/mascot rat. -smaragdina5 From jamess at climax.co.uk Wed Oct 29 11:34:30 2003 From: jamess at climax.co.uk (James Sharman) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:34:30 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The case for Dudley, the Latent Wizard Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B5301B9B8A5@mimas> No: HPFGUIDX 83775 Ali Wrote: JKR has told us that someone will find magic late in life. To date, there appear to be only 4 people who could credibly find this gift. They are Filch, Arabella Figg, Dudley and Petunia. [Big snip] For Petunia to witness Dudley discovering that he is a wizard would surely be one of her worst fears confirmed. I think that she would do almost *anything* to stop Dudley entering the WW. SilentJim Adds: Your suggestion is certainly very interesting and the possibility of Dudley being a latent wizard could have been very interesting. However I believe it goes against cannon. We know anyone with the slightest hint of magic is able to see Dementors and Dudley did not. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Oct 28 19:56:58 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:56:58 -0000 Subject: Righties and lefties in Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alshainofthenorth" wrote: Alshain: > Others have suggested that Pettigrew might be a lefty as well, since > he cut off his right index finger (PoA) and his right hand (GoF). It > makes sense that he'd use his dominant hand for something like that, no? > > Also, what would happen if a lefty tries to use a right-hand wand (or > if you use your wand with your non-dominant hand)? Would it be akin to > using a pair of right-hand scissors (uncomfortable, but manageable), a > right-hand serrated knife (visible differences in the final results), > or a chainsaw (you risk cutting your arm off)? I would have presumed that, from its shape etc., a wand would be something like a biro - or a mobile for that matter, i.e. it is not handed. Geoff From arcticalopex at aol.com Tue Oct 28 22:32:02 2003 From: arcticalopex at aol.com (arcticalopex at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:32:02 EST Subject: Awful Boy Message-ID: <3b.3f535adf.2cd04862@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83777 Hello~ I am new to the list, and so far, it seems like a great list. I started reading Harry Potter after the Second Movie was in Theaters and was instantly hooked. Anyway, I do have a thought about the OotP, and I was wondering if anyone else shared my opinion. On page 32 where Aunt Petunia talks about the awful boy who told Lily about the Dementors, I was wondering whom people thought that awful boy was. I know many people assume it was James Potter, because Harry believes so, but I personally, for some reason I can't explain, don't think she was referring to James. Any other thoughts? Sorry if this has been discussed before. Mel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From diverchick41 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 00:05:14 2003 From: diverchick41 at hotmail.com (diverchick41@hotmail) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:05:14 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter in 80s movie References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83778 Michael Gridlow peaked my interest with: > As I was flipping through the channels yesterday, I came across a > grade B horror flick called "Troll". I don't know the exact date, but > I know it was made sometime in the early eighties. Anyway, the name > of the protagonist is Harry Potter! The boy even resembles J.K. > Rowling's creation somewhat. Tcy: - and always loving an excuse to search IMDB - here you go: http://imdb.com/title/tt0092115/ Michael Gridlow also said: >Is this all just a coincidence, or did Rowling borrow some ideas from this movie for her > books? I do not doubt Rowling's creativity or imagination, but it's > not like her series is totally original. Essentially, her stories are > just a skillfully crafted combination of myths, legands, folklore, > and history. Tcy, again: I doubt seriously that JKR had been influenced in the least by this movie. It was released in 1986 in the US - and if they were lucky, not at all in the UK . And it seems like an odd source for the name of the title character (but what do I really know?). I do agree that JKR has used bits from many sources and has been influenced by all sorts of mediums in creating the Potterverse. It's one of the reasons I love the series so much. There is so much in it that is familiar to me - that I can relate to. Tcy (hoping this post isn't too OT and that I've avoided howlers screaming in my direction) --I haven't seen this movie, but the cast includes Anne and June LOCKHART. It was also said that the 1987 movie "Mio min Mio" was basically Harry Potter. http://imdb.com/title/tt0093543/ "A fantasy about the lonely boy who is transferred from his dull life with his adoptive parents to the land where his real father is the king." Rowling probaly saw many of these movies, and they influenced her writing, but I doubt she would intentionally take things. Both these movies contain magic and witches. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 13:16:57 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:16:57 -0000 Subject: HP/LV related? (was: Dobby revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83779 "Jennifer" wrote: > What if LV and the Potters and Evans were related? That's not a new theory, you know :-) It's been out there for a long *long* time that LV could be anything from a grand-father to a distant cousin of Harry's. I personally thought of it as soon as I read Tom Riddle's description in CoS. He's so much like Harry and James, there might be something. It could also explain why LV killed James right away but didn't want to bother killing Lily. If James was family (either through Mr Potter or Mrs Potter who could have been a Riddle), then he had to be killed along with Harry, while Lily didn't matter. But we won't know until Harry FINALLY bothers about learning more of his family history !! Del From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 14:30:02 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:30:02 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83780 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I'm thinking aloud on my feet. Tom's mother died in childbirth. That > is a good deal less common than it was in, say up to Edwardian times > as Riddle would have been born round about 1926. Tom tells us that > his father abandoned her when he discovered the WW connection, which > implies at that time she was already pregnant. > > OK. As Grannybat has suggested, was she physically unable to go back? > Had she been estranged from her family because she had married a > Muggle? The Riddles were presumably living as Muggles. Perhaps the > mother had a bad pregnancy and was ill? Now Ginger: I've noticed in this thread (and ones like it) we've overlooked one little detail: Mrs. Riddle probably didn't plan to die. Tom the Muggle left her to go home to his parents. She would still have the house or flat or whereever they were living. I think it's highly likely that being a decendant of Slytherin, her people were ticked that she went and married a Muggle, so she may not have wanted to go back. She may well have had the notion that the baby would fix it all. Her husband would see his son and her parents would see their grandson, and all would be well with the world. Hey, sometimes it actually works, especially with disgruntled parents. Geoff said: > Tom must have found out the details about his parents afterwards, > because we are told in GOF that his father had been living with his > parents at the Riddle house in Little Hangleton when TR was a > teenager. I am assuming that he was the "teenage boy, a stranger, > dark-haired and pale" (GOF p.9 UK edition). It must also have been > round about the time of the COS incident because we are old that the > mysterious deaths occurred half a century ago before Voldemort > reoccupied it in 1992. Ginger again: This is the part that interests me: When did little Tommy find out the details? I agree that she was most likely attended by a midwife (I think it was Grannybat who said that), and that the midwife told the orphanage people, who told Tommy the details of his birth and naming. But who told him about his mother being abandoned due to being a witch? Who told him about Slytherin's heir and the whole CoS thing? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm, where's the ibuprofin? Back to Geoff: > This opens up several cans of worms. I am surprised that the Muggle > orphanage allowed him to attend Hogwarts when he got his letter. Ginger (anyone feel like they're watching a tennis match?): I would guess that whoever was Guardian of the Quill at the time had a plan for cases such as this. Probably it involved telling the orphanage that an anonymous benefactor routinely gave scholarships for underprivilaged children, and that Tom had been chosen. They probably have a cover that Muggle parents use anyway. In any case, orphanages generally run on short budgets. One less mouth to feed is one good thing, and a child getting a good (and free) education is another. I think they wished him well and helped him pack. Perhaps the orphanage administrator was in on the real story and took him to Diagon Alley. Or it could have been a volunteer wizard. Toss a coin. Geoff: How did he manage to trace his father in a time when information about > true parents was usually held secret? Ginger: Um, perhaps by his name? And the story that went with it? Not meaning to be saucy, but that did hit me right away ;) Ginger, grabbing the ibuprofin (which might be a good name for a band) From joshuanave at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 09:58:03 2003 From: joshuanave at hotmail.com (Joshua) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:58:03 -0000 Subject: The case for Dudley, the Latent Wizard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > I wrote this post some time ago, but never actually posted it, with > the recent discussion on Petunia, it seemed the right time to post > it. > > > JKR has told us that someone will find magic late in life. To date, > there appear to be only 4 people who could credibly find this gift. > They are Filch, Arabella Figg, Dudley and Petunia. There is another candidate, and that is Vernon Dursley. I find him to be a much more appealing candidate for several reasons. Yes, it's true that Petunia despises magic, but hers is a loathing bred of familiarity. As you point out, it's born in jealousy over her sister. Vernon, however, despises magic for just the oppossite reason; he is an example of someone that hates and fears what he does not understand. If Uncle Vernon were to turn up as a witch, it would be akin to Javert's suicide scene in Les Miserables. It would fundamentaly destroy everything he has based his life upon. His character has the greatest potential for a truly dramatic discovery of latent magical powers. > The impact on Harry if Petunia or Dudley were to access latent > magical powers, could be immense. Petunia has spent all of Harry's > life hating him for his magical ability and I suspect his potential > for destroying her mundane existence. I disagree. She does not hate him because he has magic powers, rather she hates him because it's a reminder that Lily, and not she, does not. She would hate him even if he were not magical because she hates her sister. It is Vernon that hates Harry's potential for destroying his mundane existence. > It is not hard to assume that Petunia suffered terribly because of > her sister's magical ability. We know she felt inferior, we know she > lost her sister at a young age and we know that she got landed with > her nephew. What we can suggest is that she also lost her parents > because of Lily's magical involvement. I agree. Do you mean she lost her parents figuratively or literaly? We know that Harry must spend time with his relatives in order to be safe, can we assume that the Dursely's are his only remaining blood relations? If so, what heppened to the others, when and how? > Now, I know people have questioned whether Dumbledore would prevent > any child with magical abilities form entering Hogwarts. I would > agree, that in normal circumstances, he wouldn't, but anything to do > with Harry is a special case. If, Dumbledore thought that the only > way he could keep Harry safe was to deny Dudley his place, then IMO, > he would have done so. I have to disagree. If Dumbledore were going to supress magical abilities in children, there are much more appealing choices ;) That aside, I find it terribly out of character. > Think about what Dumbledore says:- > > "What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and > creatures were slaughtered in a vague future, if in the here and > now, you were alive, and well, and happy" OoP UK edition p. 739. This is taken out of context. Dumbledore is speaking rhetoricaly, reproaching himself for a misjudgement he made. He believed, or made himself believe as we all do at times, that he could have his cake and eat it too. This statement is his mea culpa. Here are some other reasons for not believing Dudley has latent powers: He can't see the dementors in OotP. We know that latent magic powers tend to manifest themselves in times of danger or when you lose control over your emotions. Dudley is not someone that has great control of his emotions and so would likely have exposed his power by now. Dudley would not likely play an active role in supressing such powers; he would delight in being able to use magic to further his career as a bully. From liz at studylink.com Wed Oct 29 10:01:34 2003 From: liz at studylink.com (liz) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:01:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83782 on 29/10/03 9:13 am, junediamanti at june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk wrote: > June: I got the distinct and purely subjective sense of a couple of > particular neighbourhoods in London here. I'd be interested to hear > the views of anyone else who knows London about this. > > My geographical siting of 12 Grimmauld Place was (for no other reason > but that I know them fairly well) either Hackney in North East London > or Stoke Newington - similarly located and virtually next door. Both > these areas are full of large victorian properties which are how > shall I put it? Run down. Ever so slightly seedy. Laura's comment > about people not taking notice of goings on was what prompted me to > think a bit further about this. Liz here: As a Londoner I've thought about this a bit too, but come up with some different conclusions. I believe it takes the kids and their escorts about 20 minutes to walk to Kings Cross Station on September 1, so Hackney and Stoke Newington are unlikely locations, unless they walk really, really fast. More probable locations would be Kings Cross itself, Kentish Town, Angel/Islington, Camden Town. They are all slightly seedy (except perhaps Angel which is more flash), they all have large, rundown Victorian houses and they also skirt the edges of posh, moneyed areas like Hampstead & Regents Park. 12 Grimmauld Place has always had a 'posh gone to seed' element for me, especially considering the attitudes and snobbery of the Blacks, more inner-north-west than north-east. I've lived in both areas and that's the feeling I get. There is actually an amazing, enormous, crazy looking old Victorian terrace in Swiss Cottage which just *IS* 12 Grimmauld Place to me (although I don't imagine it in Swiss Cottage - too clean!). I'd also be interested in what anyone else thinks. Liz From starmom513 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 14:06:09 2003 From: starmom513 at yahoo.com (P Dennos) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:06:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore's Actions in MOM Duel Message-ID: <20031029140609.22801.qmail@web21311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83783 Greetings, all. This is my first post after lurking (and greatly enjoying!) since this summer. I have thoughts regarding Dumbledores actions during the MOM duel with Voldemort(Chapter 36, OoTP). On re-reading this chapter, I was puzzled by Dumbledores reply to Voldemorts question as to why he didnt try to kill him (page 814, US edition). Dumbledore stated, Merely taking your life wouldnt satisfy me, I admit . Now, while Im a huge Dumbledore fan, and will NEVER believe hes in any way evil or incompetent, I wondered why it would have mattered whether or not HE would be satisfied by killing Voldemort, when he might have been able to save the entire WW by doing so. I now wonder whether this relates to Dumbledores knowledge of the prophesy (and Voldemorts not knowing it in its entirety). Dumbledore has always been The Only One He Ever Feared but would he still be quite so feared if Voldemort knew that Dumbledore COULDNT kill/vanquish him that only Harry has that power? Dumbledore obviously doesnt want to lose this advantage, and if he appeared to try (and failed) to kill Voldemort, one of Harrys strongest protections (at least as perceived by Voldemort)would likely be gone. While I'm sure Dumbledore knows that there ARE things worse than death and that there are other ways to destroy a man, I think he's trying to keep Voldemort from learning that he can't actually be killed by Dumbledore -- especially since death seems to be the thing Voldemort fears most. (And now the standard disclaimer I dont remember having seen this theory since August. If it has been discussed and I missed it, my apologies!) starmom513 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 29 14:55:31 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:55:31 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83784 Kneasy (ahh, watch him stir, with a happy little grin on his face. Bless him)wrote: >>Differing opinions appearing on the reasons for Dobby's behaviour. Good. I hate it when everybody agrees. leb2323 brings up the interesting point of the Elf Re-location Office at the Ministry and that perhaps Dobby has a significant employment history. But if he has transferred wouldn't his loyalties be adjusted? Would you really expect that an Elf could defy his present family and go against their interests? Not likely. In that case no-one would want a used Elf>> Yeah, when I first read Leb's post I found the idea a bit far-fetched too. However, I was thinking (this isn't something that happens regularly anymore, so bear with me) - As I see it, this is a question of learned ethics. Winky and Kreacher both assume the ethics of their families - we hear the judgements of Crouch and Black (sounds like a firm of solicitors)in the phrases "bad Dark wizard" and "blood traitor brats" respectively. Dobby doesn't. Dobby, in fact, rebels against the Malfoy ethos so utterly as to make a subjective judgement about the rights and wrongs of his family's position. Fine. Dobby is a Thinking Elf. He's a hippy Elf, an independant, rogue Elf. But where did he learn his alternative morality from? Where has he gleaned the language to tell Harry that his former employers were "bad Dark wizards"? Dobby and Winky both use this phrase, so yes, he could have picked it up from her. But it implies a judgement which was made during the period of employment. Therefore, Dobby would have to have learned from *somewhere* that there was a magic which was "bad" - Dark magic, as practised by his employers. Important to note also that the followers of Lord Voldemort, though they call him "the Dark Lord" do not make this sort of moral distinction, nor are they likely to say "hey, Elf, here I am doing some bad, Dark magic". Remember old Quirrell? "There is no good and evil, only power and those too weak to seek it" or something? Ergo, I assume Dobby has not learned to make this sort of subjective judgement with the Malfoys. Certainly, Dobby could have followed a similar trajectory to Harry, who knows the Dursleys are bad primarily because they compromise his own interests, but Harry has had school and education, which Dobby, at least under the Malfoys, has not. There has to be some sense of an alternative, I think, before an alternative view point can be discussed. Kreacher and Winky have not had this opportunity, so they toe the party line. Dobby, I conclude, *must* have had some previous experience of other moral judgements, and I'm guessing it wasn't from Grandpappa Malfoy. However, the problem I have with all my shiny new theorising is that *Lucius Malfoy* is unlikely to want a second-hand house elf. Unless sweet little baby Draco bit the old one's head off, and the house was getting dusty....but I digress. Kirstini, spark plugs a-buzzin'. Just not all in the right order. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 29 15:18:51 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:51 -0000 Subject: Drought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83785 smaragdina5: > Does anyone else wonder whether the drought (or Spanish baggage strike) might have anything to do with the coming bad tidings/Voldemort's return/etc.? I know that one person wondered so, but wonder if anyone else has ideas. Probably the waterskiing budgie is safe not to worry about (unless it's another animagus or transfigured wizard!)> As a Brit, I read these as authentic detail. Southern England (contrary to all British stereotypes) can get very hot over the summer, and the news talks about a hosepipe ban every year. A baggage handler's strike, similarly, is something that seems to happen in European airports every summer. I think that these events, far from foreboding anything, are included to signal precisely how ordinary a summer it seems. Kirstini, praying fervently to her little Rowling alter that Bungy the Budgie does not turn out to be Malfada Hopkirk in disguise. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 29 15:40:19 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:40:19 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83786 > Ginger again: > This is the part that interests me: When did little > Tommy find out the details? I agree that she was most likely > attended by a midwife (I think it was Grannybat who said that), and > that the midwife told the orphanage people, who told Tommy the > details of his birth and naming. > > But who told him about his mother being abandoned due to being a > witch? Who told him about Slytherin's heir and the whole CoS thing? > Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm, where's the ibuprofin? > Jen (reaching for the ibuprofen as we speak): Ginger, that is a great question. Er, no, I don't have an answer...just speculation with a (very) little canon to back it up. Did Tom learn his magical history at Hogwarts? If the name Marvolo came from the Mom's side (as many have speculated) maybe their lineage was in "Great Wizards of the Twentieth Century" (SS, chap.12, p.197) or "Hogwarts a History", and he was able to piece together some of his magical history, the part about descending from Salazar Slytherin Maybe his Mom had a diary or other papers the midwife brought to the orphanage, and Tom received these when he left for Hogwarts. Tom already knows of his father's actions while at Hogwarts, when he describes his Dad as a "..foul, common Muggle, who abandoned me even before I was born, just because he found out his wife was a witch.." (COS, US paperback, chap. 17, p. 314). So we can rule out that Tom, Jr. forced the story out of his Dad before killing him. The thing I keep coming back to is (grannybat and Geoff were discussing this in up-thread), where was the magical family during this time? Sure Tom is "half-blood", but he's still magical and descended from Salazar Slytherin--wouldn't that make up for the Muggle dad somewhat? **Speculation** I'm thinking the magical family never knew of Tom, Jr.'s birth or his acceptance into Hogwarts. Or they rejected him anyway. And this perceived rejection also fuels Tom's transformation into LV. From a psychological standpoint, Tom's obssession with ridding the world of Muggle-blood mirrors his personal "dangerous, magical transformations" (COS, US paperback, chap. 18, p. 329) that are an attmept to rid *himself* of his own Muggle blood.** Any other thoughts? From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 15:45:39 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:45:39 -0000 Subject: The Phoenix In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20031029193119.02247bf0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tanya Swaine wrote: It is true that Harry has a bit of LV in him (dark). But I am wondering about the light part of the equation.He might have enough as it stands now but I wonder if the balance will be Dumbledore will willing and knowingly put a bit of him in Harry, and that will create the balance as LV unwittingly put a bit of himself in Harry. At the beginning of the series when Dumbledore is waiting at Privet Drive, Mc Gonagall, replies when Dumbledore says that LV has powers he will never have. She says that Dumbledore is just too noble to use them. Now Entropy: Hmmm...interesting that you mentioned that passage. There's something similar in CoS that always catches my eye. When the students are questioning Professor Binns about the Chamber in Chapter 9, Binns' answer is: "Just because a wizard *doesn't* use Dark Magic doesn't mean he *can't*, Miss Pennyfeather," snapped Professor Binns. "I repeat, if the likes of Dumbledore --" By making clear in these two passages that a wizard can be knowledgable about Dark Magic, yet choose not to use it, perhaps JKR is giving us some clues here as to what Dumbledore is capable of and what may happen by Book 7. ::Entropy:: From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 15:54:45 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:54:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4 Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place (Kreacher)-long Message-ID: <20031029155445.57935.qmail@web40006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83788 29Oct03 Eloise wrote: ...We learn that there is a house elf in residence, yet the house has been uncared for. Should Kreacher's family loyalty not ensure that he keeps the house in order for whenever the rightful owner returns? Paula now: OK, I'm still hung up on the whole issue of house elves, especially Kreacher. I reread chapter 4 after Eloise's post; something that I hadn't noticed before really jumped out this. After the OotP meeting, Mrs Weasley called the kids to come down to dinner. She noticed that dungbombs had been left outside the kitchen door (where the meeting was held) and asked who'd left them. When Hermione covered up for the twins saying that Crookshanks had left them, Mrs Weasley said, "I thought it might have been Kreacher, he keeps doing odd things like that." This really makes me wonder about Kreacher's activities. A couple of questions come to mind. 1) Has Kreacher been using his magic to eavesdrop on OotP proceedings by leaving objects scattered near the meeting place? We learn later on that he greatly admires Bellatrix-a little spy work maybe? Or 2) Could it be that Kreacher routinely throws things in fits of temper in his hostility towards Sirius? We find out later how he routinely walks through the house muttering insults and collecting the possessions of Mrs Black. These questions make me wonder exactly how the whole business of elf "Free Will" works. Kreacher, because he is a house elf, must carry out Sirius' orders but really to what extent? We learn later in the book that he could not directly divulge any information that his master did not want him to, but he could decide to reveal information that he deemed significant to an enemy. (Bloomsbury Ed. Page732) So, all of this says to me that by the same token, he could decide how a house should be kept when the current master is not someone he particularily loves. Finally, one last thing about Kreacher that's been driving me nuts. Near the end of OotP, DD tells Harry that Kreacher injured Buckbeak, the hippogriff (Remember Kreacher's bandaged hands when he spoke to Harry in the fireplace)? Why did he injure Buckbeak? Will Buckbeak be OK? What could he have been trying to do? Any ideas or hints from canon? Paula "Griff" Gaon Please vote in my MagicalCreaturesPosterPoll: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/polls Thanks --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 16:05:13 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:05:13 -0000 Subject: Awful Boy In-Reply-To: <3b.3f535adf.2cd04862@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83789 arcticalopex at a... wrote: > On page 32 where Aunt Petunia talks about the awful boy who told > Lily about the Dementors, I was wondering whom people thought that > awful boy was. I know many people assume it was James Potter, > because Harry believes so, but I personally, for some reason I > can't explain, don't think she was referring to James. > Any other thoughts? Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm sorry too if this has been discussed before. I don't think she was referring to James either. The expression she used : "that awful boy", doesn't strike me as being one she would use to talk about her brother-in-law. In my idea, she would just say something like " *he* ", and everyone would know who she's talking about. Moreover, "that awful boy" makes me feel like she's talking about someone *whose name she doesn't remember*. It's the kind of thing we all do : "you know, that woman with red hair", or "I met that guy, the one with the Jaguar". So who would it be ? One obvious answer comes to my mind : James's shadow, his almost-brother that went everywhere with him, Sirius ! We know James and Sirius were real pranksters. I guess James would have tried to accomodate his girlfriend's family, but it seems just like Sirius to go and scare the daylight out of stuck-up Petunia, just for the *fun* of it! No wonder Petunia would describe him as "awful" ! Another possibility, much less easy to explain, would be Snape. He was sure "awful". But how did Petunia get to meet Snape, I can't figure out. Maybe Snape came to see Lily during the summer (hello to you, Lily-Severus shippers) ? And when she rejected him, he took revenge on her sister ? But my guess is : Sirius. Oh, and by the way, IIRC we are *assuming* that the girl "that awful boy" was talking to was Lily, right ? The text doesn't say so explicitely, right ? So... Del From happydogue at aol.com Wed Oct 29 16:04:47 2003 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:04:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP/LV related? (was: Dobby revisited) Message-ID: <029EE587.6790E19C.0B4B226A@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83790 Remember is GoF when Harry told Dumbledore what happened when V came back and how he used some of Harry's blood? When he was told Dumbledore had a brief twinkle in his eye. Could this be related? JMM From rredordead at aol.com Wed Oct 29 16:11:18 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:11:18 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83791 > Entropy Wrote: Snip > So, the logical question now is: why *was* Sirius written in as an > important character in three out of five books? There must be some > reason for his presence, but I have to admit, I'm stumped. Unless > we're going to see Sirius in Books 6 or 7, I can't imagine why JKR > needed to create him in the first place, just to kill him off without any real "revelations" on his part. > Nianya Replied..... > > That's why so many readers feel cheated from his untimely death. JKR built him up as a key character and then unceremoniously removed > him. It only makes sense that he has to play a role in the last two > books in some form or fashion. I think it's been discussed before, > but IMHO he may now be the link to other dead characters for > support, advice or maybe even future magical assistance. Now me: Sirius was there to illustrate the terrible pain of loosing a beloved one. Pain and loss that is different to Harry than the loss of his parents who he didn't know. I'm afraid Sirius is not coming back. Sorry to all you Sirius fans. But that is life, and the sheer brilliance of JKR's writing is it realism. People die in real life for absolutely no reason what so ever. Often when they still have their full life ahead of them, when have so much to tell and when they have yet to reach their full potential. It is part of the tragedy of death. The reason I cried at Sirius's death (and it wasn't when he actually died but later during the chapter in Dumbledore's office) was because of the enormity of the loss of not just the person, but all that goes with that person, all those unanswered questions about Harry's mum and dad and yes even Lord Voldemort himself. And, just as in real life, Harry has to live with the terrible regret that comes with "I should have asked about..." or "We never talked about....". I applaud JKR for not being afraid to illustrate such loss, pain and regret and make us feel it a strongly as the characters in her books. Mandy From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 29 15:52:36 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:52:36 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: Geoff wrote: > How did he manage to trace his father in a time when information > about > > true parents was usually held secret? > Ginger: > Um, perhaps by his name? And the story that went with it? > Not meaning to be saucy, but that did hit me right away ;) > Geoff again: I don't know whether you're in the UK or not, but certainly in the case of adoptions and possibly orphanage situations (look at Oliver Twist for example), the details of parents are withheld. My wife was adopted and we spent a lot of time round about 1980 trying to trace her real mother and we were for ever running up blind alleys. In the end, we found her more by luck than by judgement. Since then, legislation has been introduced which does allow an adoptee to find these details out. My point is that often, children from an orphanage might be adopted or fostered and thus this information would be kept under wraps. Going back on one or two of the coat hooks which I hung up and which have been used, someone raised the point about what happened to Tom Riddle after his birth. Did he stay in the orphanage (I implied this in my post without realising it at the time) or was he sent out to a family? Further question - is there any significance that he seems to lay the blame completely on his father? Geoff From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 16:21:25 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:21:25 -0000 Subject: What's so special about Harry ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83793 Hello everyone ! I keep reading here and there that Harry is the only one that can kill LV. It's always bothered me, but I couldn't figure out why. And it suddenly hit me : why would Harry be the only one who could kill LV ? I know what the Prophecy says, but I don't see any *reason* why Harry should be the only one to be able to do the job. I also know that Harry has got a very special power. But honestly, if that power is love as most people think, I don't see that it's anything *that* special. It's something LV doesn't know all right, but *a lot* of people out there know about it ! So what ? Are there Higher Powers out there who decided to put in a very special rule ? In my game that's called cheating, bending the rules to accomodate someone's will. And I don't see JKR doing that. Why couldn't Dumbledore for example kill LV ? What would happen if he tried ? Would the Higher Powers strike him with lightning for daring to challenge their exceptional rule ? So I repeat my question : why would Harry be the only one who could kill LV ? Del From rredordead at aol.com Wed Oct 29 16:24:59 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:24:59 -0000 Subject: Awful Boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83794 > arcticalopex at a... wrote: > Snip. > I was wondering whom people thought that awful boy was. snip > Del wrote: > I don't think she was referring to James either. The expression she > used : "that awful boy", doesn't strike me as being one she would use > to talk about her brother-in-law. In my idea, she would just say > something like " *he* ", and everyone would know who she's talking > about. Snip Now me: I'm still convinced it's James. Petunia refers to the all in the wizarding world with enormous spite. Including her own flesh and blood in Lily and Harry. Why? We don't yet know and there are many theories. But it seems to me that Petunia hates all things witchcraft and I am not at all surprised she wouldn't call James by his name, and instead refers to him a something disgusting and awful. Besides, he was more than likely awful to her, especially if Lily brought him home and Petunia treated him like dirt. Mandy From suzie_t666 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 16:46:08 2003 From: suzie_t666 at hotmail.com (Paul Smith) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:46:08 -0000 Subject: First prediction's happened, third possible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrnipha" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Paul Smith" > wrote: > > Anyone else? Has the first prophecy already happened? Has it not? > > > Someone put me in my place, that way I might be able to develop it > a > > bit further. > > > I posted back in July (message #70383) along similar lines. I will > just summarize here. In my opinion, only the first part of the 1st > and 2nd prophesies has occurred. Voldemort was vanquished by baby > Harry, and his servant (Peter aka Wormtail) has escaped and aided his > master to rise again. The second part of each of the prophesies is > ongoing or still to come. We have not seen Voldemort "greater and > more terrible than he was" yet as the 2nd prophesy predicts, nor has > one died "at the hand of the other" yet. > > I agree that a 3rd prophesy is unlikely unless it is self-contained in > the first part of Book Six. I envision the second part of the 2nd > prophesy coming to fruition in Book Six, and the second part of the > 1st prophesy in Book Seven. > > I definitely do not think that the 1st prophesy is complete. The link > between Harry and Voldemort is why "neither can live while the other > survives", and I do think that it is crucial to the entire story arc. > > There are many interesting possibilities to explore. I write: Thanks for your thoughts. They've opened my mind more to the possibility that the prophecies aren't solely either short or long term, and that they may contain elements of both. The fact that the second prophecy says that V will be even greater is probably the main piece of evidence my original theory overlooked. Looking at both theories they are similar in terms of structure, and both short and long-term predictions appear to be made. And thanks for pointing me towards older posts on the subject too! Gratitude and love, Suze. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 17:09:33 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:09:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place Message-ID: <20031029170933.10268.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83796 29Oct03 Laura wrote: *Snips* "abigailnus" wrote: ... The order is not operating as a cohesive unit, and I think Dumbledore is to blame....had Dumbledore ordered him to take meals with the order, it might have been helpful for him to point out to Severus that he is currenly spending more quality time with people he purports to hate then with his supposed allies. Laura: Although I'm very happy to join in heaping blame on DD, who I think richly deserves it, I wonder how much of this situation with Snape is just Severus being Severus. ... *End Snips* Paula now: Why do you guys want to be so hard on DD? He's just now a confrontational character. DD give anyone order, even more so a fuss budget like Snape? I could just never imagine it. As Laura points out, this situation could just be Severus being Severus. I would go so far as to add that giving Snape an order would just cause more incohesivness, at least nerves, within the group. Paula "Griff" Gaon Please vote in my MagicalCreaturesPosterPoll: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/polls Thanks so much to those who've already voted! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 29 17:13:38 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:13:38 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > Sirius is gone after three books, and I'm still at a loss as to what > he was ever doing there in the first place. I used to think that > Harry would end up living with Sirius, but now that he's dead, I think > there's not much chance of that happening. > > So, this begs the question: what the heck was he there for in the first place? In the King Arthur legends, Lancelot goes after the Holy Grail and never gets it, so one could ask, what was the point of sending him after it? But even thought Lancelot's story is 90% jousting and battles and Guenevere, his longing to be a spiritual person is the key to understanding his character and his ultimate fate. If Lancelot hadn't gone after the Grail and failed to achieve it, we wouldn't understand why in the end he is willing to give up all worldly things and become a monk. We don't know what Harry's ultimate fate is going to be, but through the loss of Sirius we learn that Harry's longing to be part of an intact family is more powerful even than his desire to be a great wizard or defeat Voldemort. IMO, as Lancelot learned that he, or any medieval Christian, could become a spiritual person without a miraculous object, so Harry will learn that he, or any orphan, can replace his lost family by growing up and making a new family of his own. Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 29 15:30:11 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:30:11 -0000 Subject: The VEIL and The Weasleys Not @ MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > > Jen wrote: > > **Well and once again, we see the ability in the WW to use ** > > ** more space than the Muggle World appears to notice or use, ** > > ** like the WW is operating on the same plane of existence ** > > ** but is able to incorporate almost another dimension.** > > rest of post 83711 snipped > Phil: > This last post has reminded us that 12 Grimmauld Place appears from > nowhere from between numbers eleven and thirteen! > > Now to the veil, it seems only 2D, but must have a magical third > dimension, for it to be possible for Sirius to disappear. > Whether its third dimension operates similarly to Fidelius I cannot > say, because Harry and Neville saw Sirius disappear, besides DD and > Lupin. Certainly Harry and Neville were not privy to any Fidelius > knowledge to grant them a clearer view of the veil. > > Summing up, my theory is that the veil has a magical third dimension > allowing Sirius to disappear. Geoff: This question of space utilisation also occurs in other places, for example the Ford Anglia.. "Harry couldn't see how eight people, six large trunks, two owls and a rat were going to fit into one small Ford Anglia. He had reckoned, of course, without the special features which Mr.Weasley had added." (POC UK edition p.51) Reminiscent of Dr.Who's TARDIS? Geoff From grannybat at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 17:48:09 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:48:09 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83799 > > Jeff debated Caipora on the methods of Magical contraception: > > > > > Rubber is too much of a muggle > > > invention for them to use, imho. But I could be wrong. > > > > What do you think they use for birth control, then? > > > Ye old English methods, the lunar cycle, or even a spell. You > don't see any mentioning of condom dispensors in the boy's loo, do > you? :) Well, we wouldn't. JKR hasn't given us even a glimpse into that particular bastion of male privacy. The closest she's allowed us is the Quidditch changing rooms. (No, I don't think the prefect's bath counts. That room struck me as a unisex facility.) Regarding the larger question?what's to keep them from employing the Magical form of The Pill? The Weasley Twins use "double-ended, color- coded chews" in their Skiving Snackboxes, so the Magical world doesn't have to rely on just potions and unguents for medicinal delivery systems. The Pill is a product of organic chemistry. Potion making is essentially organic chemistry. I have to side with Jeff on this one. Mechanical methods are just so...Muggle. Grannybat From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 29 17:50:24 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:50:24 -0000 Subject: Awful Boy/What isn't Petunia telling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83800 arcticalopex at a... wrote: >>> I was wondering whom people thought that awful boy was.>>> To which Del replied: >>I don't think she was referring to James either. The expression she used : "that awful boy", doesn't strike me as being one she would use to talk about her brother-in-law.>> Then Mandy wrote: > I'm still convinced it's James. Petunia refers to the all in the wizarding world with enormous spite. Including her own flesh and blood in Lily and Harry. Why? We don't yet know and there are many theories. But it seems to me that Petunia hates all things witchcraft and I am not at all surprised she wouldn't call James by his name, and instead refers to him a something disgusting and awful.> And now Kirstini: I'm fairly sure that the awful boy in question is James. I'm fairly sure of this because he seems to be a fairly easy person to blame any sort of wizarding knowledge on, and because I think Petunia is lying. Is it plausible that Petunia would hear the word "Dementor", and trot out a sentence like "They guard the wizard prison, Azakaban", if she had only overheard this information once, from a source she distrusted, twenty-ish years earlier? "Azkaban" is quite a tricky word, especially in these conditions, and yet Petunia uses it with a certain familiarity. She doesn't say "which I think is called something like Azkaboon" . Then she realises her mistake and needs to cover her tracks with a plausible explanation - and the only wizard (other than Lily) who Vernon knows she's met is "that awful boy" who Lily married. Something else that doesn't ring true - Petunia doesn't use the word "wizard" ever. She says "you-know-what", or employs other similarlly delicate euphemisms. And yet, here she is making a distinction between "wizard" and "muggle". It would have been far more in keeping with what we know of her character for her to say something like "that lot's prison" or "the prison, Azkaban" (depending on how familiar she is with it). To say "wizard" *does* sound like she's quoting someone else, but not pureblood, wizard-bred James. Some other Muggleborn? Not Lily, because then she wouldn't have to have bothered with awful boys at all. In my wildest moments, I imagine some sort of support group for Muggle relatives of wizards. Then my common sense kicks in... Ah, who knew you could make such a long and involved post out of a sentence? Kirstini, feeling a bit dizzy. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 29 18:27:59 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:27:59 -0000 Subject: Awful Boy/What isn't Petunia telling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: To say "wizard" *does* > sound like she's quoting someone else, but not pureblood, wizard- bred > James. Some other Muggleborn? Not Lily, because then she wouldn't > have to have bothered with awful boys at all. In my wildest moments, > I imagine some sort of support group for Muggle relatives of wizards. > Then my common sense kicks in... > Jen: I never thought about it before, but Petunia does have a nearby source for wizarding information, if she ever wanted a question answered--Arabella Figg. Who seems fairly well-versed in wizarding terms. Now, Figg tells Harry "I'm sorry I gave you such a miserable time, but the Dursleys would never let you come if they thought you enjoyed it." (OOTP, US hardback, chap. 2, p. 22). But she never says the Durselys didn't know who she *was*. It makes sense thinking about it now, that the Dursleys would actually feel more comfortable leaving Harry with someone who knows a little about magic because then their precious "normality" could be intact even if Harry did something odd. It would not be in keeping with the Dursleys avoiding all-things-wizard, but then they've always been between a rock and a hard place from the moment they agreed to take Harry in--all decisions about him are fraught with consequences. Perhaps staying with Miss Figg, a known squib but not a fully magical person, was the lesser of two evils for Vernon and Petunia. From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 18:46:09 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:46:09 -0000 Subject: Kreacher (was Re: Ch Disc: Ch 4 No. Twelve, Grimmauld Place) In-Reply-To: <20031029155445.57935.qmail@web40006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83802 <> Paula: > Finally, one last thing about Kreacher that's been driving me nuts. Near the end of OotP, DD tells Harry that Kreacher injured Buckbeak, the hippogriff (Remember Kreacher's bandaged hands when he spoke to Harry in the fireplace)? Why did he injure Buckbeak? Will Buckbeak be OK? What could he have been trying to do? Any ideas or hints from canon? > > Paula "Griff" Gaon Shirley responds: Kreacher injured Buckbeak so that Sirius would have to tend to Buckbeak's wounds, which would keep Sirius out of the way when Harry floo-powdered into the kitchen fireplace to check on him (Sirius). In other words, injuring Buckbeak got Sirius out of the way so Kreacher could lie and say he wasn't around (sorry, don't have my book with me, so I can't quote anything directly); which would then make Harry think Sirius really *was* in trouble with LV. And, I think that Kreacher's hands are bandaged because he punished himself after injuring Buckbeak (a la Dobby, when he ironed his fingers for doing something he knew his master wouldn't approve of). At least, that's what I concluded when I read (and re-read) it.... ;-) Shirley, slipping back into lurkdom..... From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Wed Oct 29 19:00:10 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (Tracy Hunt) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:00:10 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > Dobby is a Thinking Elf. He's a hippy > Elf, an independant, rogue Elf. But where did he learn his > alternative morality from? Where has he gleaned the language to > tell Harry that his former employers were "bad Dark wizards"? Dobby > and Winky both use this phrase, so yes, he could have picked it up > from her. But it implies a judgement which was made during the > period of employment. Therefore, Dobby would have to have learned > from *somewhere* that there was a magic which was "bad" - Dark > magic, as practised by his employers. >Dobby, I conclude, *must* have had some previous experience of other moral judgements, > and I'm guessing it wasn't from Grandpappa Malfoy. > > However, the problem I have with all my shiny new theorising is > that *Lucius Malfoy* is unlikely to want a second-hand house elf. > Unless sweet little baby Draco bit the old one's head off, and the > house was getting dusty....but I digress. > > Kirstini, spark plugs a-buzzin'. Just not all in the right order. Now me (Tcy, with her lone, grimy spark plug): I agree with Kirstini, I don't see Lucius wanting a "second-hand elf" (boy, that sounds like a filk title waiting to happen...but back to the topic at hand). There has been speculation recently that Dobby belonged to the Potter family (starting with Kneasy's post # 83483). But what if Dobby came to be a Malfoy family elf via Narcissa's (Black) family? If Dobby was originally an elf for the Black family (possibly related to Kreacher?), it could explain much of what Kristini questioned above. Dobby's *hippy*, *free-spirit* side could be explained by the influence of the outcast members of the Black family (notably Sirius). We could also *blame* Sirius for Dobby's affinity toward Harry. What if, in his younger days, Dobby (and other family elves) were brought up within the Black household with the intention of serving the Black children and their new families as they grew up and moved out? Dobby would have definitely been exposed to both sides of the "importance of maintaining purity of blood" philosophies. He'd even be likely to know quite a bit about Harry owing to the many DE's in the family and Sirius being so close to James. This isn't nearly as flushed out as it should be...but I just had to put my 1.4 knuts in while I had the thought in my head. Sorry I don't have any canon to support this one...it's just pure speculation on my part...so I am prepared to have it torn to shreds... Tcy (cursing herself because these thoughts always sound better in her head) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 29 19:22:24 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:22:24 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff again: > I don't know whether you're in the UK or not, but certainly in the > case of adoptions and possibly orphanage situations (look at Oliver Twist for example), the details of parents are withheld. My wife was adopted and we spent a lot of time round about 1980 trying to trace her real mother and we were for ever running up blind alleys. In the end, we found her more by luck than by judgement. Since then, legislation has been introduced which does allow an adoptee to find these details out. My point is that often, children from an orphanage might be adopted or fostered and thus this information would be kept under wraps. << Thanks for confirming my research! I was able to look this up thanks to some of the more prominent UK orphanages who've put their history on the web. At the time of Riddle's birth, an infant would have been fostered for the first five or six years of life and then brought to the orphanage. The child's name was changed, but efforts would have been made by the orphanage to locate the father of the child so as to collect child support. Riddle might not have known his real name until the Hogwarts letter came. We've seen that Muggle locks and keys are no match for an ingenious teenage wizard, so I imagine Riddle was able to find out everything the orphanage knew about his father. Pippin From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 19:35:43 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:35:43 -0000 Subject: Awful Boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83805 arcticalopex - Message 83777 > On page 32 where Aunt Petunia talks about the awful boy who told > Lily about the Dementors, I was wondering whom people thought that > awful boy was. I know many people assume it was James Potter, "Doriane" Message 83789 > I don't think she was referring to James either. The expression >she used : "that awful boy", doesn't strike me as being one she >would use to talk about her brother-in-law. In my idea, she would >just say something like " *he* ", and everyone would know who she's >talking about. "K": SS/Ch 4 "Then she met that Potter at school and they left and got married and had you..." Petunia has mentioned James before and she referred to him as Potter. I do believe Petunia remembers the name of this boy. Petunia (JKR) just isn't telling us. I think for the most part we are just to assume it is James. "Doriane" > Moreover, "that awful boy" makes me feel like she's talking about > someone *whose name she doesn't remember*. > So who would it be ? One obvious answer comes to my mind : James's > shadow, his almost-brother that went everywhere with him, Sirius ! "K": I don't believe "that awful boy" is James either. I'm not sure if James would have taken Sirius with him when and if he went to visit Lily. I also can't see Petunia referring to the handsome boy Sirius as awful. Now Snape is another matter . I could definitely believe Petunia would think of Snape in that way. "Doriane" > Another possibility, much less easy to explain, would be Snape. He > was sure "awful". But how did Petunia get to meet Snape, I can't > figure out. Maybe Snape came to see Lily during the summer (hello > to you, Lily-Severus shippers) ? And when she rejected him, he >took revenge on her sister ? "K": Yes. It was Snape. At least IMO it was. But I'm not a Lily-Severus shipper and I don't believe that is why Snape was there. Not as some love-struck boy for Lily. How would Snape have taken revenge? "Doriane" > Oh, and by the way, IIRC we are *assuming* that the girl "that >awful boy" was talking to was Lily, right ? The text doesn't say so > explicitely, right ? So... "K": If not Lily than who? Another sister? Just curious... From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 29 19:49:35 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:49:35 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Patriotism in the WW References: <1067252566.29144.94183.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001701c39e55$ce90a2e0$d94e6751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 83806 Melissa noted that: > There seems to be something of a lack of patriotism in the Wizarding World. The only example I've come across is There does, doesn't there? >Seamus' enthusiastic support of the Irish team at the Quidditch World Cup. There's some awareness that wizards living in >other countries do some things differently, as in the trouble over Ali Bashir and his flying carpet, but I'm not seeing any >overt pride in England, simply a sense of "some of our ways are not the same as some of theirs." The Ministry of Magic >deals with the Muggle bureaucracy but seems to feel no particular loyalty to it, or to the Queen. We don't see the students >singing God Save the Queen in the morning, but that may not be significant as there's a great deal that we don't see them I suppose that given that the WW doesn't seem to have an equivalent either to God _or_ the Queen (!) that would take some explaining... "We Must All Resolutely Comply With Educational Decree No 24" might be a little ditty that Umbridge would have dreamed up as a school song (though it has a certain Chinese flavour to it!) >(disclaimer: I don't think that patriotic people necessarily think their country is better than other countries, nor do I think >that patriotism is a bad thing; I just can't think of a better way to phrase this). I think that what has happened in the WW has meant not that people aren't patriotic, but that there is very little occasion to _display_ that patriotism outside of the sporting arena. There doesn't seem to be any international tension, or for that matter any inTRAnational tension. Although clearly Scotland isn't an independent country, that doesn't seem to cause any problems between Scots and English students. It could be that the levels both of internal control by the MoM and external interrelations as a result of their agreements with other Ministries mean that those sorts of disagreements are mediated without being a source of conflict. > So, is there patriotism at all in the WW? Is an individual's first loyalty to his/her country as against other countries; does >he see him/herself first as a subject or citizen of his/her country and then as a wizard/witch? It's possible that patriotism >matters in the WW, at least somewhat; the example of Seamus suggests this. Or is he/she primarily loyal to the WW? >The second possibility seems more likely to me because of the history of wizard persecution by Muggles. This could be >another reason for pureblood wizards to dislike the presence of Muggle-born students at Hogwarts, since a Muggle-born >might have been taught loyalty to England and certainly wouldn't have been taught loyalty to the Wizarding World. >Perhaps someday we'll see a Muggle-born student struggling with this question. Of course, this doesn't explain Seamus; >perhaps patriotism is an issue in some countries but not in others. If that's true, though, there goes my half-formed theory >about Muggle-borns' possible patriotism being a reason for purebloods to distrust them. Am I just overthinking this? >Ideas? thoughts? smacks with a wet noodle? Perhaps if we accept that aggressive patriotism and international conflict are possible in the WW, we next have to wonder about whether wizards have ever gone to war. A magical war could cause enormous devastation (and of course be virtually impossible to conceal from Muggledom). Even a violent disagreement between a few individuals could lead to considerable mayhem. Perhaps it's a price that the WW have paid as another means of keeping its existence secret, and that destructive military magic is part of forbidden lore Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From gromm at cards.lanck.net Wed Oct 29 19:22:34 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:22:34 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter in 80s movie References: Message-ID: <011d01c39e56$26a17f40$ec41983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 83807 It was also said that the 1987 movie "Mio min Mio" was basically Harry Potter. http://imdb.com/title/tt0093543/ "A fantasy about the lonely boy who is transferred from his dull life with his adoptive parents to the land where his real father is the king." Now Maria: 'Mio my Mio' is a story by Astrid Lindgren, and the description fits, so I take it the story was made into a movie. I read this story as a child and liked it very much. It is true that it has great resemblance to Harry Potter. I remember how those relatives were always saying to the boy that his father is a rascal (his mother died when he was born). And then the boy is transported to a magical country where he is the crown prince. And in that kingdom there was a powerful evil wizard, a mortal enemy of the boy's father. The boy played an important role in defeating the evil wizard. Maria From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 20:03:37 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:03:37 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83808 > > Ginger again: > > But who told him about his mother being abandoned due to being a > > witch? Who told him about Slytherin's heir and the whole CoS > thing? > > Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm, where's the ibuprofin? > > > > Jen (reaching for the ibuprofen as we speak): > > Ginger, that is a great question. Er, no, I don't have an > answer...just speculation with a (very) little canon to back it up. > > Did Tom learn his magical history at Hogwarts? If the name Marvolo > came from the Mom's side (as many have speculated) maybe their > lineage was in "Great Wizards of the Twentieth Century" (SS, > chap.12, p.197) or "Hogwarts a History", and he was able to piece > together some of his magical history, the part about descending from > Salazar Slytherin Annemehr: I don't think it's too difficult to come up with how Tom *might* have been able to trace his lineage back to Salazar Slytherin. Jen comes closest to my idea -- that he began learning about himself at Hogwarts. Marvolo and his daughter (Tom's mother) presumably both went to Hogwarts, and there were bound to be people there who had known them personally when Tom arrived. Perhaps they had *all* been in Slytherin, and Tom's head of house was able to tell him many things? He would certainly be able to tell him much recent family history. There could also have been ancient documents in the family Gringott's vault or at the (now empty?) family home. Even if there *was* an empty family home, I don't think an under-age Tom would have been allowed to go live in it, but there's no reason someone from the WW couldn't have taken him there at some point to see what was his. I'm not envisioning a handwritten note from Salazar himself detailing how to get into the Chamber of Secrets, but just enough for a very intelligent boy to make some headway with. You want details, you make 'em up! As for how Tom found out about why his father had come to abandon him, well, people do talk, so there would be any number of possible sources for this information at Hogwarts. Picture gossip sessions at the Leaky Cauldron, the Three Broomsticks, or the Hogs Head about old Marvolo's daughter who went and married a Muggle right out of school, got herself (!) pregnant, and then the bum deserted her when he found out what she was. Then, her family either dead or estranged, she drops out of sight before she has Tom and dies. Tom goes to the orphanage, and the "family history" lies dormant in many minds until he shows up at Hogwarts and people hear the name "Marvolo" again. Jen: > The thing I keep coming back to is (grannybat and Geoff were > discussing this in up-thread), where was the magical family during > this time? Sure Tom is "half-blood", but he's still magical and > descended from Salazar Slytherin--wouldn't that make up for the > Muggle dad somewhat? > > **Speculation** I'm thinking the magical family never knew of Tom, > Jr.'s birth or his acceptance into Hogwarts. Or they rejected him > anyway. Annemehr: Either one would work. Also, if Tom is the last descendant, there may have been no family left by then -- Marvolo and his wife may have alreay died. Granted, if that's the case, they may have died young for Wizards (or at least Tom's grandmother did), but it's possible. Meaning, that Marvolo may have married a much younger woman in his old age, and she died in childbirth or something (bad genes, eh?), and he died before Tom was born. That would explain why *he* at least let Slytherin's heir go to a Muggle orphanage (if he even knew about being a descendent of ol' SS). Lots of things are possible. Voldemort seems to be much more inquisitive and persistent than Harry. *He* probably wanted to find out what he could about *his* family, and maybe there was a nice, sympathetic Head of Slytherin House right there to start him off, tell him all about Marvolo et al. And maybe a Transfiguration Teacher named Albus Dumbledore saw what happens when you give too much heavy information to a young, impressionable boy and vowed never to make *that* mistake, should the situation ever arise again. Annemehr speculating happily From dcyasser at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 20:11:26 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:11:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Actions in MOM Duel In-Reply-To: <20031029140609.22801.qmail@web21311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83809 starmom513 wrote: Greetings, all. This is my first post after > lurking (and greatly enjoying!) since this summer. Hi starmom! > I have thoughts regarding Dumbledore's actions during > the MOM duel with Voldemort(Chapter 36, OoTP). Dumbledore stated, "Merely taking your life wouldn't satisfy me, > I admit ?". > I now wonder whether this relates to Dumbledore's > knowledge of the prophesy (and Voldemort's not knowing > it in its entirety). Dumbledore has always been "The > Only One He Ever Feared" ? but would he still be quite > so feared if Voldemort knew that Dumbledore COULDN'T > kill/vanquish him ? that only Harry has that power? > Dumbledore obviously doesn't want to lose this > advantage, and if he appeared to try (and failed) to > kill Voldemort, one of Harry's strongest protections > (at least as perceived by Voldemort)would likely be > gone. I think you're right, he's being cagey with his answers because he knows he can't kill LV and he can't let LV guess that. But it's not all subterfuge, because while he didn't AK him, he did send what Harry termed a very forceful curse at LV, a curse that LV obviously recognized, had to conjure a shield to protect himself against,and then commented on with "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?" What I really want to know is what *that* curse was. I don't think DD repeats it during the duel; he throws curses to try and capture LV (fiery rope, water)but Harry does not describe them in the same way as the first curse, which was memorable even in its aftermaath, as it caused a deep gonglike note to reverberate from LV's sheild that was an "oddly chilling sound." I don't think DD was just stalling until the order got there, I think he was trying something, and it just didn't work. - dc From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 29 20:13:18 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:13:18 -0000 Subject: Righties and lefties in Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I would have presumed that, from its shape etc., a wand would be > something like a biro - or a mobile for that matter, i.e. it is not > handed. > Geoff Alshain: When Harry buys his wand in PS, Ollivander specifically asks him about his wand hand, and Harry answers that he's right-handed. So I think there must be a difference, small but palpable, somewhat like using another wizard's wand or trying to write with the "wrong" hand. Some people might manage better, some worse (I belong in the category that can't produce readable writing with my right hand if my life depended on it.) Veering off-topic for the main list, but I couldn't resist: Among the people cast for the HP flicks, at least four -- Rik Mayall, Kenneth Branagh, Gary Oldman and Emma Thompson -- are left-handers. Just FYI. Alshain From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 20:33:21 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:33:21 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" wrote: Jen wrote: > The Weasley's do a have > a great wizarding past, but in the lull of the years as Percy grew > up, I feel that nothing was going on of importance for Scabbers to > get information about. Arthur works for the Muggle Artifact > department, not rich with the intelligence that Wormtail would want to know. Was Arthur working in the same department when Wormtail blew up the street? He might have been called in to help wih cleaning up and Wormtail could have followed him or climbed into a pocket. It may be a stretch, but possible. > If Scabbers wanted to get important MoM information, why wouldn't he just hide out in the MoM, surely as a rat he would go undetected in such a large place and be able to eavesdrop wherever he wanted. But I understand that he needed food and shelter. Shelter he would get at the MoM and food would be plentiful to find in the streets of > London outside the MoM. Why be a "wild" rat and have to scavenge for food when you can find someone to take care of you. That seems to be part of his persona - tagging along after James and Sirius, following Voldemort. Much easier than taking care of yourself. Ravenclaw Bookworm From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 20:47:35 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:47:35 -0000 Subject: What's so special about Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > > Hello everyone ! > > I keep reading here and there that Harry is the only one that can > kill LV. It's always bothered me, but I couldn't figure out why. And > it suddenly hit me : why would Harry be the only one who could kill > LV ? > > I know what the Prophecy says, but I don't see any *reason* why Harry > should be the only one to be able to do the job. > So I repeat my question : why would Harry be the only one who could > kill LV ? > > Del What's so special about Harry? To be nitpicky, what makes Harry so special is that he is the star of his own book septology, thanks to JKR. (Sorry to be snarky, but I am in the middle of class right now and not in the best mood!) But in context of the story we don't really know yet. As is mentioned (and snipped out) in the above post the person to whom the prophecy pertains (either Harry or Neville) has a "power that the Dark Lord knows not" and we are only assuming it is love. The fact is that there could be a dozen things that Harry (or Neville) has that LV doesn't. Love certainly, maybe compassion or kindness or some other "Force"-like inner strength. But what makes him special? Who knows? What made Luke Skywalker or King Arthur or Odysseus so special? Nothing, except what they were born and who they became, in short, their destinies. Perhaps there is something in Harry's past (or his parent's pasts) that makes him different. (Heir of Gryffindor/son of Vodldemort theories, anyone?) I personally believe that Harry's strength lies in him being a good person who will, in the end anyway, have the courage to do the right thing. But who knows. Meri (who's desire for book six is nearly all consuming) From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 29 20:56:31 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:56:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ginny Weasley's Birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031029205631.73395.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83813 Udder Pendragon Hi all, does any one out there have any idea when Ginny Weasley's birthday is? I have been trying to find it but with no luck. We seem to know when all the other main charecters B'days are why not Ginny's. Or could this lack of knowledge be significant? Udder Pendragon Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 20:58:00 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:58:00 -0000 Subject: HP/LV related? (was: Dobby revisited) In-Reply-To: <029EE587.6790E19C.0B4B226A@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > Remember is GoF when Harry told Dumbledore what happened when V came back and how he used some of Harry's blood? When he was told Dumbledore had a brief twinkle in his eye. Could this be related? > > JMM There could be lots of things that the mysterious gleam of triumph could relate to, and one just popped into my head: maybe this is a confirmation of the prophecy (that we don't even find out about until book 5). Perhaps LV has again marked Harry as an equal by his choice of Harry as his "enemy" in the spell. Perhaps here DD is realizing that he was right all along and the effort he expended protecting Harry at Privet Drive (and not telling either Harry or Neville about the prophecy) was not for naught because Harry (and not Neville) is in fact the one and this had now been confirmed twice over. Meri (who doesn't think Dumbledore is evil) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 21:02:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:02:01 -0000 Subject: Only Living Relative... REVISITED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > > > ...edited... > > > > So, I agree with everyone that Mark Evans is a very significant > > character, and will concede that they might share common > > ancestors; but, give that, I will add that I don't see that as > > any conflict in the statement by Dumbledore that Petunia is > > Harry's only living relative. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > > > Arya: > > There's a slight problem with this: Dumbledore NEVER says "only > living relative", he SAYS: > > "I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. "They're the only > family he has left now." (US paperback, p13) > > ...edited... > > Arya bboy_mn: I knew I read 'only living relative' somewhere, but for the life of me, I couldn't find it... until last night that is. Although, the reference I found doesn't quite say 'only LIVING relative'. OotP, Am Ed, HB, Page 836, Chapter "The Lost Prophecy"- Dumbledore speaks... "...She gave you a lingering protection he never expexted, a protextion that flows in our veins tothis day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her ONLY REMAINING RELATIVE." Obviously the added empahsis is mine. So, in light of Petunia being Lily's and therefore Harry's, only remaining relative, how do we resolve the Mark Evans issue? I'm not sure, but as I tried to point out in my original post, it is possible for two people to share a common distant branch of the family tree without being considered related. Once the relationship reaches a certain geneological distance, it becomes insignificant. Just thought I would pass that along. bboy_mn From mail at chartfield.net Wed Oct 29 18:34:35 2003 From: mail at chartfield.net (queen_astrofiammante) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:34:35 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83816 > "Matt" wrote: > > > I believe the idea that Harry could be related to > > the Malfoys (specifically, on Lucius' side) has > > been mentioned before as a possible reason for > > Dobby's ability to visit him (although not before > > in connection with freeing Dobby). I have trouble > > believing such a relationship, given the strong > > emphasis JKR has placed on differences in physical > > appearance between, e.g., Harry and Draco (or, > > correspondingly, James and Lucius). It would, > > though, have the rabbit-out-of-a-hat character of > > some of JKR's revelations. Then Doriane wrote: > But when it comes to Lily and Petunia, JKR always makes a point of > showing us how physically different they are... So in that light it's > not impossible that James and Lucius would be somehow related. > > Del Now me: First of all, I have always been very suspicious of that sentence uttered by Madam Rosmerta in Prisoner of Azkaban, where she says, just before Harry overhears the conversation about Sirius betraying his parents, that James and Sirius were 'as close as brothers'. Then we hear in OoTP, The Most Ancient and Noble House of Black, how Mr and Mrs Potter senior adopted Sirius 'as a kind of second son' after he ran away from home. Thirdly, when Molly and Sirius are rowing about Harry at Grimmauld Place, the substance of their argument is about which of them is the most effective surrogate parent. And finally, it is Sirius himself in OoTP that tells us how all the Pureblood families are heavily interrelated. What if Sirius is not only Harry's godfather but also a biological relative of both him and James? What if the reason Dobby can warn Harry is not because of his relationship via Lucius Malfoy, but via Narcissa Black Malfoy? Actually I would probably agree that Dobby can break the rules because he's a rather unconventional house elf. But I've long subscribed to the view that when we know How They Are Related, we'll have most of the answers - especially when it comes to Severus 'Perseus Evans' Snape and Lily ;- )) Astrofiammante www.deadjournal.com/users/astrofiammante From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Oct 29 20:12:21 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:12:21 -0000 Subject: Awful Boy/What isn't Petunia telling? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > Is it plausible that Petunia would hear the word "Dementor", > and trot out a sentence like "They guard the wizard prison, > Azakaban", if she had only overheard this information once, from a > source she distrusted, twenty-ish years earlier? "Azkaban" is quite a > tricky word, especially in these conditions, and yet Petunia uses it > with a certain familiarity. Geoff: Actually, this hadn't occurred to me. But it's especially interesting when you begin to look at the verbal tangle Vernon gets into, compared to the way Petunia handles it with great aplomb: "A couple of - what's this codswallop" "they actually exist, do they - er - Dementy-whatsits" "But what ARE Dementoids?" "If it was Demenders who hurt Dudley...." "And now he's sending Dismembers after you?" Also interesting is that, in at least a couple of these cases, Petunia takes the initiative in giving Vernon a reply or response of some sort. Certanly seems to strengthen the argument that Petunia is NOT your standard issue Muggle. Geoff From belijako at online.no Wed Oct 29 20:56:58 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:56:58 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Actions in MOM Duel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83818 starmom513 wrote: Dumbledore has always been "The > > Only One He Ever Feared" ? but would he still be quite > > so feared if Voldemort knew that Dumbledore COULDN'T > > kill/vanquish him ? that only Harry has that power? My comment: What comes first; the hen or the egg? I'm not sure I agree with everyone that because of the prophecy Dumbledore CAN'T kill Voldemort! A prophecy is not "the law" or the "cannon" as it were; a prophecy states what is going to happen, it doesn't decide what is going to happen... There's a slight difference there. Let me try to explain what I mean: If, in book 7, in the heat of the battle, Neville was the one to kill Voldemort, that would have been the deciding factor, and the prophecy would have been different. A prophesy doesn't alter the future, it just gives us the knowledge of what is going to happen anyway (regardless of the prophecy). It's not the propcecy that decides the future, but the future governs the prophecy... So, when the prophecy states that "either must die at the hand of the other", signifying Lord Voldemort and Harry, it doesn't say that no one else COULD ever kill Voldemort, it just says that this is what is going to happen. Either Harry or Voldemort is going to kill the other. The prophecy is just foretelling the future, not setting up rules as to who can kill who. Technically I'm sure Dumbledore could kill Voldemort if he wished to (I'm not so sure he would do it morally-wise). By the way; the prophecy doesn't use at all the wording "no one else can kill Voldemort but Harry". The prophecy just revolves around the two main characters, Voldemort and Harry, saying "either must die at the hands of the other". Berit J. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Oct 29 21:20:19 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:20:19 -0000 Subject: Calling Fawkes Re: Dumbledore's Actions in MOM Duel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcyasser" wrote: > > What I really want to know is what *that* curse was. I don't think > DD repeats it during the duel; he throws curses to try and capture > LV (fiery rope, water)but Harry does not describe them in the same > way as the first curse, which was memorable even in its aftermaath, > as it caused a deep gonglike note to reverberate from LV's sheild > that was an "oddly chilling sound." > > I don't think DD was just stalling until the order got there, I > think he was trying something, and it just didn't work. Jen: I do think Dumbledore was stalling, seeing as "Tom" stumbled into the trap the Order set for him in the MOM, to retrieve the prophecy orb for himself and thus be revealed to the wizard world at large. (I think I'm giving the right credit to say this was first proposed in Magic Dishwasher TBAY post #81010). When Dumbledore says, "It was foolish to come here tonight, Tom.." (OOTP, US hardcover, chap. 36, p. 813), that seemed like the equivalent of saying "Check" to your chess opponent--you've made a grave tactical error, Tom. But back to the fight. Harry describes what Dumbledore throws at LV as a "spell" rather than a curse, which makes me think it wasn't something intended to harm LV. LV backs this up with his comment, "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?" (OOTP, chap. 36, p. 814). The effects of the spell on the shield that you describe above, the "deep gonglike note", reverberating into "an oddly chilling sound" made me wonder if this was Dumbledore's emergency call to Fawkes. Fawkes shows up shortly after this incident. No, DD couldn't have known LV would conjure a shield, thus making the sound, but it's an interesting thought. From eberte at vaeye.com Wed Oct 29 21:38:12 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:38:12 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83820 entropymail wrote: > Sirius is gone after three books, and I'm still at a loss as to > what he was ever doing there in the first place. I used to think > that Harry would end up living with Sirius, but now that he's dead, > I think there's not much chance of that happening. > > So, this begs the question: what the heck was he there for in > the first place? > If your hypothesis is that Sirius was a worthless character because he died before the end of the series, I disagree with that (I *think* that is what you are saying anyways, sorry if I am misinterpreting your words.) His character was tremendously important in PoA. The whole of the third book was built around the mystery of Sirius Black, and personally, I loved the fact that the presumed crazed murderer turned out to be the good guy in the end. In GoF, Sirius had a more background role, but he was established as a father-figure/confidant for Harry. I agree that Mr. Weasley and DD are father-figures for Harry too, but, realistically, Mr. Weasley has 7 other *natural-born* children for whom he is a father-figure, how is Harry supposed to feel as though his relationship with Mr. Weasley is anything special? Dumbledore is very fatherly to Harry at times-- but generally quite distant, usually only showing up for the end of the book chat with Harry. Significantly, Harry does not feel comfortable discussing alot of things with DD, perhaps because he is in awe of him. Sirius was the grown-up that Harry turned to for advice and support in GoF. This special relationship, unfortunately, is what set Sirius up for *death* in OoP, IMO. I believe that the death of Sirius will be a very significant part of the series. Sirius *was* special to Harry and his loss has already changed Harry (witness his intense feelings of isolation and guilt at the end of OoP.) I think that Pippin is on the right track with the theory that Harry is above-all trying to re-create for himself a family. The death of Sirius is a symbol of Harry losing his family all over again--now at an age when he can feel the pain of the loss. Elle (who feels that some of the most memorable characters don't make it to the end of the book alive in some cases--Ruth May in "The Poisonwood Bible", Beth in "Little Women" and Digby in "Beau Gest" to name a few) From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Oct 29 21:50:23 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:50:23 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts protections (was Fidelius &Chapter 4 discussion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83821 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Number 12 is invisible to Harry until he follows Lupin's > instructions .... > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" > wrote: > >> snip >>> All the others were members of the > Order--could they already see 12 Grimmauld upon arrival and only > Harry had to think about what he memorized, or do you have to go > through this process again each time you try to find the location? > >>snip>> > Inge: > It doesn't make a lot of sense that Harry had to memorise > the 'password' unless he would need to use it again. Otherwise he > could just read the words out loud and then destroy the paper - or > give it back to Moody. > Then why is it that the other members don't have to say the words to > get in? > And when Harry uses the fire in Umbridges office one would think that > the fireplace at Grimmauld Place 12 had a charm on it as well so that > not anyone who just says "Kitchen, Grimmauld Place 12" can get their > head inside Sirius' kitchen. But Harry doesn't need a 'password' for > that. Carolyn: A further query on the protections Dumbledore puts in place. I was just reading PS again, and was suddenly struck by the ease with which Charlie's friends just flew in on broomsticks to collect Norbert and take him off to Romania. What's the point of the no- apparate/disapparate rule if people can just whiz in on a broomstick ? And what about the ease with which Crouch Sr, Rita Skeeter and Sirius enter the Hogwarts grounds ? There seems to be no magical sort of electric fence in place. Although DD conspiracy theorists will probably say DD knew all about these various incidents as they occurred, and permitted the intrusions into Hogwarts as part of various masterplans, I'm terribly afraid that the truth is he's not really on the case, as sadly demonstrated with the death of Sirius. Maybe the true reason for Snape's frustration and rage is that he thinks he can do the job better, despite DD's former brilliance ? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 21:51:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:51:34 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" wrote: > Jennifer: > ...edited... > > Where Scabbers came from is a great question, and I have > pondered it in the past. All of your explainations have been very > good, but still I feel has not filled the void in my mind. > > If Scabbers was found on the Weasley farm, how did he get there in > the first place? The Weasley farm is in a remote part of England, > not too easy for a rat with one missing finger to get to, .... bboy_mn: How did Peter/Scabbers/Wormtail manage to get all the way out into the country where the Weasley's lived; you ask? Well, he managed to make it all the way to the Albanian forest which is on the Adriatic Sea between Italy and Greece. Certainly, if he can make it that far, a few hundred mile across the English country side would not be that hard. One could equally ask, how did Norwegian Rats become one of the biggest infestations of rats in the USA? They have their ways. Suggestion; in the dead of night, Peter transforms back to his human-self and apparates to safe locations near where he has to be. Alternative, he stows away aboard trucks and trains headed in his direction. Not an unsolvable problem when you consider Scabbers managed to cross the English Channel and the continent of Europe. > Jennifer: > >The Weasley's ..., I feel that nothing was going on of importance > for Scabbers to get information about. Arthur works for the Muggle > Artifact department, not rich with the intelligence that Wormtail > would want to know. bboy_mn: Voldemort and his DE's are pro-pureblood wizard and anti-everything else. V & the DE captured, tortured, and murdered muggles during his peak years, I would say that that would keep Arthur Weasley very busy. While his specific job relates to bewitched muggle artifacts, he DOES work in the Department of Magical Law Enforcement (OoP US Ed HB pg 130), and his job is to protect muggles from attacks by malevolent wizards. Also, Arthur seems very well connected at the Ministry, and he seems very well liked. In addition, working in Law Enforcement, he would certainly be well informed about what was happening in the wizard world. > Jennifer: > > If Scabbers wanted to get important MoM information, why wouldn't he > just hide out in the MoM, surely as a rat he would go undetected in > such a large place and be able to eavesdrop wherever he wanted. But > I understand that he needed food and shelter. bboy_mn: Compare the life as a rat in the MoM and the life of a rat living with the Weasleys; not much of a comparison. At the Ministry, Peter would never be able to show himself, his movements would be limited by whatever the assumed stone walls would allow. When he needed food, I suspect the garbage in the MoM lunchroom would be very limited, and getting food outside the MoM would be dangerous. Outside the MoM in the muggle world there is an active effort to control rats, plus dogs, cat, other critters, and competition from other rats. Now at the Weasley's Scabbers slept in a warm bed, lived in a warm house, had fresh cooked food given to him, had the relative freedom and safety of the farm, no hiding, no cowering inside dark wall, etc.... Peter doesn't strike me as a martyr, he doesn't strick me as someone to choose the 'hard' life for the good of the cause over the easy life for the good of himself. > Jennifer: > > ...edited... > > I think Scabbers wound up with the Weasleys the same way as Hedwig > with Harry and Crookshanks with Hermione. They bought him. > > --I dunno just a thought...Jen bboy_mn: The rats we see in Diagon Alley in the animal menagerie shop are clean well-bred enchanted rats. When they can get rats like that, why would they pickup a common garden rat from the streets of London and try and sell it? And even if they were out catching rats in the streets, Peter/Scabbers has human intelligence, he is certainly smart enough not to get caught under those conditions. No, I'm sticking with my original thought. Peter knew of the Weasleys and their circumstances fit his needs nicely. However, I won't go so far as to say that the Weasley's were his first choice. It's possible he tried other wizard families before coming to the Weasleys. Note the Weasleys living on a farm would have given him a significant advantage in that he could live in the wild while he studied the family and looked for his best avenue of getting take in. The lone Percy would have filled the requirements nicely. There are certainly some dangers to a rat living in the wild, but again, since Scabbers has human intelligence, he would have been at a great advantage over the common field rats in the area. Still just a thought. bboy_mn From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Oct 29 22:39:56 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:39:56 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > >>> Laura: > > > Marianne's post made me wonder if one of the reasons the Order > chose > > Grimmauld Place was that it was in a somewhat iffy neighborhood, > > perhaps the kind of place where the residents purposely don't take > > notice of each other's comings or goings. > > June: I got the distinct and purely subjective sense of a couple of > particular neighbourhoods in London here. I'd be interested to hear > the views of anyone else who knows London about this. > > My geographical siting of 12 Grimmauld Place was (for no other reason > but that I know them fairly well) either Hackney in North East London > or Stoke Newington - similarly located and virtually next door. (snip)> > June Carolyn (an N8 resident): In Chapter 10 of Oop it says it took them 20min to walk from no 12 to Kings Cross, so although I agree that both these locations have the right feel, I think they are too far out. I'd placed the house up in those streets of Georgian terraces up to the N and E of Kings Cross, which were once elegant but are now decaying and sometimes scary to walk around. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 22:40:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:40:31 -0000 Subject: Chapter 4; 12 Grimmauld Place - Location Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83824 Sorry, I don't have a direct comment to anyone but I do have an on-line map of London indicating the likely area and location of 12 Grimmauld Place. It is a map that is centered around Kings Cross Station and shows a one mile radius from that centeral point. Warning: the map is very large (550kb) so it may take a while to load with a normal modem (love my DSL connection). Kings Cross & 12 Grimmauld Place: http://tinyurl.com/sx1i http://www.homestead.com/bluemoonmarket/files/hogwarts/12grim.jpg As a bonus, here is a map of Surrey and London showing significant points, giving distances to significant locations, and with links to interesting points in Surrey. Surrey & London: http://www.homestead.com/bluemoonmarket/files/hogwarts/surreymap.html http://tinyurl.com/sx27 I though this might help the discussion, given people a map of reference points to help them visualize the London area around Kings Cross station. Just throwing it in. bboy_mmn From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 22:48:38 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:48:38 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?My_Mother=92s_Dyin=92_Day_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83825 The 11th song from Azkaboon, the musical My Mother's Dyin' Day (PoA, Chap. 5, 7, 9 & 13) To the tune of My Mother's Wedding Day, from Lerner and Loewe's Brigadoon Hear a MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat228.html Dedicated to Ginger THE SCENE: Before the grounds of Hogwarts. Enter HARRY and a CHORUS OF DEMENTORS HARRY: Now if ye wonder how my life has become such a mess It started off the day I sat on the Hogwarts Express. The train, it grounded to a halt, and through a darkened door There came that foulest of creatures ? a fiendish dementor The `mentor it meant to march right in `n' mangle the man who was makin' away And as the room temperatures plunged below freezing I glimpsed its hands decay I fell like one who'd been struck dead, and right away inside my head Lost voices reverberated with panic and dismay I heard a woman's frightened screams, a cold high laugh, a flash of green CHORUS OF DEMENTORS We took you right back to the scene of your mother's dyin' day. HARRY: In Dark Arts Defenses when Remus walked in, we didn't know what to expect But when he shot gum up the poltergeist's nose, we knew he'd prove high-tech In his first lesson gainst Dark Arts, he introduced us to Boggarts An icy knife struck deep my heart that I could not eject But mayhap Lupin was a seer, he did not let me face this fear CHORUS OF DEMENTORS So at that time, you came not near your mother's dyin' day. (HARRY'S wand summons his Patronus, which lingers for the remainder of the song) HARRY: When we're playin' Quidditch in the drivin' rain `gainst Cedric and Hufflepuff's team Then all of a sudden the `mentors drift in and they like their sports extreme Once more cold laughter and green light, I canoe put up any fight I fell fifty feet in my flight `midst my mother's dreadful screams The game and consciousness I lost, because my path with `mentors crossed CHORUS OF DEMENTORS As we replay the holocaust of your mother's dyin' day. HARRY: So I asked of Remus how best to repel the `mentors from out of my ken And Lupin replied that he's just the right thing, the Expecto Patronum And so I practiced with this spell, it proved as difficult as hell, Oft to the floor I often fell when the boggart mimicked them. The next time that I on my Quidditch broom flew, `gainst Ravenclaw and the fair Cho I spied robed beings skulking about, so I hollered "Expecto!" My patron flew out like a blast, the robed ones were scattered fast The feeling was so unsurpassed when it proved to be Draco It was a sight of greatest joy, the dim disgrace of dumb Malfoy CHORUS: That afterglow we shall destroy on your mother's dyin' day! (The Chief Dementor zaps HARRY'S Patronus into smithereens. Exit CHORUS) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS (updated today with 52 new filks) http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From rredordead at aol.com Wed Oct 29 22:49:47 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:49:47 -0000 Subject: Only Living Relative... REVISITED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83826 > bboy_mn said: > Dumbledore speaks... > "...She gave you a lingering protection he never expexted, a > protextion that flows in our veins tothis day. I put my trust, > therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her > ONLY REMAINING RELATIVE." Now me: I wouldn't trust everything Dumbldore says. Yes he's good and all that but he can fudge the truth when it suits him and more importantly if it suits the future of the WW. Petunia and family were in a much more of a suitable position to raise the infant Harry than Mark, who I believe to be younger than Harry and therefore not born at the time of Harry's parents murder. What about Mark's parents you ask? Well, who says they are alive, perhaps he is living with adopted parents too. Another reason for Dumbledore to lie is if Harry's mother's family present a danger to him or could reveal a terrible secret about that side of the family Dumbledore wants to keep quiet as long as possible. Just a thought. Mandy From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 23:04:26 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:04:26 -0000 Subject: Only Living Relative... REVISITED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83827 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > >>Snip>> > bboy_mn: > > I knew I read 'only living relative' somewhere, but for the life of > me, I couldn't find it... until last night that is. >Although, the reference I found doesn't quite say 'only LIVING relative'. > OotP, Am Ed, HB, Page 836, Chapter "The Lost Prophecy"- > > Dumbledore speaks... > "...She gave you a lingering protection he never expexted, a > protextion that flows in our veins tothis day. I put my trust, > therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her ONLY REMAINING RELATIVE." > > Obviously the added empahsis is mine. > > So, in light of Petunia being Lily's and therefore Harry's, only > remaining relative, how do we resolve the Mark Evans issue? > > I'm not sure, but as I tried to point out in my original post, it is possible for two people to share a common distant branch of the family tree without being considered related. Once the relationship reaches a certain geneological distance, it becomes insignificant. > > Just thought I would pass that along. > > bboy_mn *****\(@@)/**** My thought is that the type of protection Harry has is somehow matriarchal in nature so a male relative isn't needed. The Dursleys don't seem to have any connections with Petunia's family - just Vernon's, so there could be a Mark Evans out there. Or there may even be a Potter(!) out there that hasn't had contact with Harry yet. I would love to see Harry have some distant relatives that he finally gets to meet! Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Oct 29 23:05:29 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:05:29 -0000 Subject: Dementors always Prison Guards? (Was: Awful Boy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > I'm fairly sure that the awful boy in question is James. I'm fairly > sure of this because he seems to be a fairly easy person to blame any > sort of wizarding knowledge on, and because I think Petunia is > lying. Is it plausible that Petunia would hear the word "Dementor", > and trot out a sentence like "They guard the wizard prison, > Azakaban", if she had only overheard this information once, from a > source she distrusted, twenty-ish years earlier? "Azkaban" is quite a > tricky word, especially in these conditions, and yet Petunia uses it > with a certain familiarity. She doesn't say "which I think is called > something like Azkaboon" . Then she realises her > mistake and needs to cover her tracks with a plausible explanation - > and the only wizard (other than Lily) who Vernon knows she's met > is "that awful boy" who Lily married. > Something else that doesn't ring true - Petunia doesn't use the > word "wizard" ever. She says "you-know-what", or employs other > similarlly delicate euphemisms. And yet, here she is making a > distinction between "wizard" and "muggle". It would have been far > more in keeping with what we know of her character for her to say > something like "that lot's prison" or "the prison, Azkaban" > (depending on how familiar she is with it). To say "wizard" *does* > sound like she's quoting someone else, but not pureblood, wizard- bred > James. Some other Muggleborn? Not Lily, because then she wouldn't > have to have bothered with awful boys at all. In my wildest moments, > I imagine some sort of support group for Muggle relatives of wizards. > Then my common sense kicks in... > > Ah, who knew you could make such a long and involved post out of a > sentence? > Kirstini, feeling a bit dizzy. Arya now: I'm leaning towards agreeing with Kristini and here's another reason and tangent to jump off onto. I think there may be a sufficient case to belive that the Dementors being the guards of Azkaban Prison is a fairly recent development (only since the fall of Lord Thingy-Part 1). If this were true, then it supports the evidence that Petunia has a way of gaining knowledge about the current state of Wizarding World and not just how it might have been some 15-25 odd years ago. What eveidence suggests the Dementors are more recent? In GoF when DD and Fudge "Part Ways", DD's first suggestion is to remove the Dementors at once, claiming that the Dementors are Volde's natural ally. This leads me to belive that the Dementors were NOT the prison guards then when Volde first rose to power. Hmm, this leads me to hink about how they dealt with bad guys then before Dementors...immediately, the "Veil" comes to mind. Can you say "Capital Punishment"? Arya From rredordead at aol.com Wed Oct 29 23:08:41 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:08:41 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts protections (was Fidelius &Chapter 4 discussion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83829 Inge wrote: It doesn't make a lot of sense that Harry had to memorise the 'password' unless he would need to use it again. Snip Then why is it that the other members don't have to say the words to get in? Carolyn wrote: A further query on the protections Dumbledore puts in place. I was just reading PS again, and was suddenly struck by the ease with which Charlie's friends just flew in on broomsticks to collect Norbert and take him off to Romania. What's the point of the no- apparate/disapparate rule if people can just whiz in on a broomstick ? And what about the ease with which Crouch Sr, Rita Skeeter and Sirius enter the Hogwarts grounds ? (snip) Maybe the true reason for Snape's frustration and rage is that he thinks he can do the job better, despite DD's former brilliance ? Now me: I was under the impression that the Fedailius Charm worked by the Secret Keeper, and only the Secret Keeper, knowingly and willingly passing on the location of the hidden object to someone who wanted to gain access to said hidden object. So, the reason Harry had to read the address out loud, memorizing it and therefore 'owing and accepting' the information was because it was written by Dumbledore to Harry Potter and only Harry Potter. No one else had to read it because they had already received the address location prior to that day. The same rules apply to the Floo Network, once the Secret has been passed on you have automatic access to the hidden object for as long as necessary. Secondly, Carolyn, I love your suggestion about Snape above and it definitely seems Hogwarts is more accessible than we think or perhaps Dumbledore is prepared to admit. Mandy From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 23:09:35 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:09:35 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83830 Jennifer: <> > If Scabbers was found on the Weasley farm, how did he get there in > > the first place? The Weasley farm is in a remote part of England, > > not too easy for a rat with one missing finger to get to, .... bboy_mn: <> > Suggestion; in the dead of night, Peter transforms back to his > human-self and apparates to safe locations near where he has to be. > Alternative, he stows away aboard trucks and trains headed in his > direction. Not an unsolvable problem when you consider Scabbers > managed to cross the English Channel and the continent of Europe. > <> > Now at the Weasley's Scabbers slept in a warm bed, lived in a warm > house, had fresh cooked food given to him, had the relative freedom > and safety of the farm, no hiding, no cowering inside dark wall, etc.... > Peter doesn't strike me as a martyr, he doesn't strick me as someone > to choose the 'hard' life for the good of the cause over the easy life > for the good of himself. <> > No, I'm sticking with my original thought. Peter knew of the Weasleys > and their circumstances fit his needs nicely. However, I won't go so > far as to say that the Weasley's were his first choice. It's possible > he tried other wizard families before coming to the Weasleys. Note the > Weasleys living on a farm would have given him a significant advantage > in that he could live in the wild while he studied the family and > looked for his best avenue of getting take in. The lone Percy would > have filled the requirements nicely. > > There are certainly some dangers to a rat living in the wild, but > again, since Scabbers has human intelligence, he would have been at a > great advantage over the common field rats in the area. > > > Still just a thought. > > bboy_mn now Shirley: Reading this thread just made me remember something that struck me when I was re-reading the whole series a couple of months ago, with the new information from OoP fresh in my mind. Something that ended up feeling like a wasted effort from the goal of finding something enlightening, as I once again found myself getting so involved in the stories that I failed to really keep track of new hints jumping out at me. From the goal of enjoyable reading, though, it worked just fine! But I digress.... sort of ;-) Anyway, I don't have my books with me, but while reading CoS, I remember when Harry first sees Ron's room at The Burrow. The description tells us that Scabbers is on the windowsill (or a shelf by the windowsill) in a patch of sunshine, and *right next to him is Ron's wand* (emphasis mine). Now, at first I remember thinking this was a flint, because certainly Ron would have had his wand with him when they went to get Harry. But, then I realized that the restriction on underage magic would mean that Ron using his wand on that trip would be counter-productive; so he might logically have left it behind. So, having left it behind, could there be any significance to it being right beside Scabbers? Could Peter have transfigured back to his human self and used the wand..... and might he have been able to that all during the time he was with the Weasleys; using first Percy's and then Ron's wands? I don't have any particular reason in my mind that Peter would want to use the wand(s), but I just remember suddenly realizing that he might have access to them..... Shirley, who actually meant for this post to be shorter than this.... From rredordead at aol.com Wed Oct 29 23:21:10 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:21:10 -0000 Subject: Righties and lefties in Potterverse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83831 Geoff wrote: > > I would have presumed that, from its shape etc., a wand would be > > something like a biro - or a mobile for that matter, i.e. it is not > > Alshain wrote: > When Harry buys his wand in PS, Ollivander specifically asks him about his wand hand, and Harry answers that he's right-handed. So I think there must be a difference (SNIP) Now me: The reason Mr. Olivander asked which hand Harry uses was to see which was the dominant one, not because there is a difference in the shape of the wand. I assume a witch/wizard can use their wand in either hand but one will be stronger than the other. Just like using another witch/wizards wand will produce an effect but a weaker one. Jmo, Mandy From abigailnus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 23:29:25 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:29:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) (was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4) In-Reply-To: <20031029170933.10268.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83832 Laura and I came down rather hard on Dumbledore. I wrote: > ... The order is not operating as a cohesive unit, and I think Dumbledore is to blame. And Laura concurred: > Although I'm very happy to join in heaping blame on DD, who I think richly deserves it, To which Paula objected: > Why do you guys want to be so hard on DD? He's just now a confrontational character. DD give anyone order, even more so a fuss budget like Snape? I can't speak for Laura, but I'm being hard on Dumbledore because he has effectively taken the fate of the world onto his shoulders. It's only to be expected that he be held to a higher standard then other people. Let me make myself clear: I think Dumbledore is a fantastic teacher. As a mentor, he's the greatest. He does a fine job administrating a school, doing his best to keep his students well-educated and ethically grounded. His performance as Harry's protector has been spotty, but I give him full marks for effort in a difficult job. As a social philosopher, a political activist and an instigator of social changes, Dumbledore does fine work. From his defeat of Grindlewald in 1945 and his duel with Voldemort in OOP, we know that he is a fine duelist, and we've seen ample evidence that he is an all-around highly accomplished wizard. But as a leader of men, a general of war, Dumbledore falls tragically short of the mark. When you consider that it is this role that will Dumbledore's most pivotal in the years to come, you can understand why I'm unwilling to cut him any slack. Dumbledore inspires fanatic loyalty among his supporters. On its face, this might seem to be a good thing for the order, until you look at his least critical supporters - Harry, Hagrid, Mrs. Figg. The child, the childlike adult, and the disenfranchised adult who is uncertain in the wizarding world. They look to him as their savior. Among his so-called adult supporters, Dumbledore is quite heavily criticized. Snape doesn't understand why Dumbledore trusts Lupin and tolerates Sirius. Molly feels the same about Sirius and Mundungus, and Sirius has grave reservations about Snape (apparently, so does Bill Weasley). Sirius openly criticizes Dumbledore for forcing him to remain cooped up in Grimmauld Place, and Harry criticizes Dumbledore quite frequently in OOP. In the course of a year, he loses a great deal of the respect that he had for his headmaster. We might say that this criticism is a good sign. Unlike Voldemort, Dumbledore doesn't want sheep following him without thought. However, an organization such as the OOP is not a democracy, and disgruntlement with a leader as we see it expressed in the book - as grumbling among the troops - is not a good sign (admittedly, we never see Dumbledore interacting with the order, but the peripheral results of his leadership paint a disturbing picture). And indeed, the results are disheartening. Sirius and Snape nearly come to blows. Mundungus blows off his shifts to conduct shady dealings. Harry slacks off in his Occlumency practice, which Snape eventually terminates, despite Dumbledore specific orders. Without Dumbledore's guidance, the order disintegrates. In the short hours in which he's kept out of the loop at the end of OOP, a potentially disastrous situation is allowed to develop, mostly due to the acrimony between the different members of the order. That this situation ended only with the death of one man, and not with the deaths of Harry or his friends or with the prophecy falling into Voldemort's hands is due mostly to luck (and to Dumbledore's superior dueling skills, which as I said are not in dispute). In short, Dumbledore has collected a group of talented people committed to the cause of defeating Voldemort, but he has failed to form them into a cohesive unit. Paula is right to point out that Dumbledore is not a confrontational person - he always prefers the path diplomacy and discourse to that of argument and battle (although he is willing to take the latter when and if it is necessary), but avoiding necessary confrontation and allowing his followers to pursue their destructive behavior is not a good quality in a leader, and in this case it has lead to disastrous results. At the end of OOP, Dumbledore identifies his problem himself, although he mostly fails to recognize that it is a universal failure is most of his dealings with people. Dumbledore is a remarkably unemotional man, sometimes maddeningly so. This makes him remarkable, but it also blinds him. He expects his followers to act as coldly as he does, simply on his say-so. He expects Sirius to sit tight at Grimmauld, ignoring the younger man's mercurial temper and the emotional toll that staying in his childhood home takes on him. He orders Sirius and Snape to get along and assumes that they will do so. Most importantly, he keeps Harry in the dark, and expects the boy to accept this apparent snub calmly and without question. On the face of it, a leader has every right to expect his followers to obey him unquestioningly. In reality, unquestioning obedience is a currency very easily squandered. People don't appreciate being left in the dark, or given orders without discernible meanings. They'll accept it for a while, but sooner or later they will rebel. Without truly inspiring his followers, which Dumbledore so far has failed to do, he will very likely find himself leading, only to discover that no one has followed him (fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer will no doubt recognize the dynamic I'm describing). Pip, in her recent masterful post on MAGIC DISHWASHER and fallible Dumbledore, suggested that Dumbledore's goal is to overturn the social order of the wizarding world, installing a more egalitarian government. I agree with her that instating a new social order has been Dumbledore's priority since he was a young man, and I believe that when he views this goal, violent flare-ups such as Grindlewald and Voldemort's first and second reigns of terror appear as mere spikes in a pattern of racial violence that he has been following for more then a century. I also think this makes Dumbledore a bad leader - he's focused on the big picture, and fails to take into account the petty concerns and bruised feelings of his soldiers. Since unlike Voldemort, Dumbledore doesn't plan to reward his followers with anything other then the satisfaction of doing the right thing, this doesn't bode well for their sustained loyalty. An important caveat before I end: I realize that not everything can be laid on Dumbledore's shoulders. No man can force people to change, and Dumbledore certainly can't make people be better then they are. He can't make Sirius less impulsive or force Snape to relinquish his grudge. What he can do, however, is try to inspire his followers to make themselves better then they are. Thus far, he is failing. Abigail From abigailnus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 29 23:45:48 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:45:48 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts protections (was Fidelius &Chapter 4 discussion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > A further query on the protections Dumbledore puts in place. I was > just reading PS again, and was suddenly struck by the ease with which > Charlie's friends just flew in on broomsticks to collect Norbert and > take him off to Romania. What's the point of the no- > apparate/disapparate rule if people can just whiz in on a > broomstick ? And what about the ease with which Crouch Sr, Rita > Skeeter and Sirius enter the Hogwarts grounds ? There seems to be no > magical sort of electric fence in place...I'm terribly > afraid that the truth is [Dumbledore]'s not really on the case, In the past, I've expressed critcism of Hogwarts' defenses. I'm of the opinion that the school's greatest (possibly its only) defense is psychological - everyone knows that Hogwarts is impregnable, so no one tries to break in. This, you might remember, was the opinion Hagrid voiced about Gringotts in PS, right before a successful break-in took place (the only reason Voldemort didn't get the stone was Dumbledore had thought to remove it. In reality, I suspect Hogwarts is protected by antiquated spells that probably haven't been significantly revamped in all of the castle's thousand-year history - something like fighting a battle with cavalry in the age of tanks, airplanes and machine guns. I also believe that this inadequacy will become apparent - and pivotal - in book 6. In book 7, Harry will have to defeat Voldemort, and I assume that he will end up taking the battle to LV. In book 5, we already had a period of calm while Voldemort gathered his forces and attempted to gain a tactical advantage. Having failed, he will no doubt go on the offensive. I believe that in book 6 we will see an attack on Hogwarts, one that the students and the staff themselves will have to repel. This will give us a full view of the castle's defenses - their strengths and weaknesses - and will test Harry's mettle as a leader and a team player (I expect the DA to play a major part in the defense of Hogwarts). The thing is, I'm not certain they'll succeed. While I believe that the student body won't be overrun, I wouldn't be surprised if book 6 ended with the Hogwarts castle in ruins. Abigail From grannybat at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 23:53:32 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:53:32 -0000 Subject: The Ethics of Ethics (was No Sex, Please) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83834 Caipora continued the debate: > >I felt particularly sorry for the > > hedgehogs transformed into pincushions in McGonagal's class. > > > > Even if they are fully magical, > > they're not fully human, and therefore they are lesser creatures, > > to be used for whatever purposes Magicals see fit. > > When I was in junior high schools we dissected frogs. They were > dead of course, but they were killed (and raised) so that we could > dissect them. Surely the ethical questions that raises are more > serious than temporary pincushionhood. And yet we dissected them. It was exactly ethical concerns such as these that changed policies in the schools I attended during the 1970s. Students who indicated a preference could opt out of dissection exercises and use plastic models instead. (Nowadays I supposed they'd use 3-D computer programs.) Not every school offered this alternative, and I think every district could tailor its own rules to their taste; in my class, only three students took the non-dissection track, and I believe all of us had top grades. I seem to recall reading something about Jo Rowling's house being picketed by members of PETA because of the way animals were treated in her books...but that may have been just a rumor. > [I] said elsewhere, but on this topic: > > > [M]y argument is that this is exactly why Dumbledore > > NEEDS to institute classes on ethics. The Magical world > > is so comfortable--or so far in denial--regarding its > > immoral, institutionalized attitudes and practices that > > this society has to change or else it will keep devouring > > itself until it dissolves. What better place to start > > questioning an ingrained past than in school, > > where the future citizens are trained? > > Suppose a real-world Secretary of Education (for that is > Dumbledore's role) encouraged students to calculate the cost of > dairy subsidies, or to study the basis in ethics and law of the > American occupation of Iraq, or.... > > He would, excuse my language, be out on his ass in an instant. > There must be questions in the wizarding world which Dumbledore > must treat with delicacy. .... He's had a lot of trouble on > the simple issue of whether Voldemort had returned. True. Still, the Magical world does hold to some common ethical standards?witness the way Fake!Moody addressed the issue of The Unforgiveable Curses. He expressly noted that use of any one of these spells on a human being was cause for a lifetime sentence in Azhkaban. The blood purity extremists may disagree with that stance, but it does appear to be commonly accepted among the general Wizarding population (as far as we know?JKR doesn't let us beyond the confines of Hogwarts much). I'd say it is possible to start with existing, codified law (just why aren't house elves allowed to wield or even possess wands?) and extrapolate to the personal and political from there. It could be that classes in ethical philosophy do exist, but only at the NEWT level. (In American schools, students often don't encounter courses on complex "abstract" concepts until college.) As Harry hasn't reached that academic point, we haven't seen inside those classrooms. (Regarding the likelihood of Draco making a homophobic insinuation about Harry & Ron's friendship) >>> Dudley makes such a crack at the start of OotP, regarding Harry's >>> saying Cedric's name in his nightmares, so it's not beyond >>> Rowling's reach. > > > > I caught that, yes. But Harry was already so angry at the mere > > mention of the graveyard incident?and so fearful of what he might > > have let slip while yelling in his sleep?that the full impact of > > the jab went right by him. > > ...I was once a teenage boy, > and this is just a generic insult. It's flung with wild abandon. OK, so it doesn't have the power to force a confrontation that I thought it did. Rowling will have to come up with some other trigger point. "Oh, go polish your wand, Malfoy. I have more important problems to worry about." > > Next thing we know, Hermione will be subscribing to the > > Oprah Book Club? > > > > Aha. Books. > > > > She's quoting from self-help books she's absorbed for light > > reading. Books on romantic relationships so she can > > deal with Viktor. Books on male adolescents acting out stress, > > because her best friend Harry is under so much pressure. > > > I like your explanation. If it's that easy to explain, why do girls > bother? Why not just come out and say what they mean? That's the trouble: It's NOT that easy. Various people have covered all the points I would have in the Touchy Feely Armchair Psychology thread, so I won't rehash them here. Suffice to say that secondhand knowledge untempered by the wisdom of experience inevitably leads to disaster. I strongly suspect that Hermione acting the expert in matters of the heart will bring her directly to harm?especially since we've seen her buried alive by books in the course of battle at the MoM. > Is there a door in the Department of Mysteries which explains >girls? There are probably divisions and sub-offices for The Male/Female Psyche at Age (fill in the blank) behind that locked door we assume leads to Love. Right next door to that tankful of brains. Grannybat From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 23:59:39 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:59:39 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83835 <<<--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote:...in the case of adoptions and possibly orphanage situations (look at Oliver Twist for example), the details of parents are withheld...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says I was surfing through the "QuickQuotes" section of The Leaky Cauldron, and found one article which states that JKR's grandmother (doesn't say which one) was illegitimate and "abandoned" in a London orphanage where she was adopted by the proprietors. The quotation marks on the word 'abandoned' are mine: the article goes on to state that she was regularly visited by solicitors until she was 14. Sort of puts an interesting spin on the Tommy Marvel story, doesn't it? --JDR From o_caipora at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 00:54:40 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:54:40 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83836 Grannybat84112 wrote: > (No, I don't think the prefect's bath > counts. That room struck me as a unisex facility.) - - - "Harry, sorry, but it's prefects only." Harry could see Ron standing by the pool, before Hermione let the door swing shut in his face. The door re-opened a crack, just enough for Hermione to thrust a hand through. "Harry, be a dear, hold this for me. I'll get it from you later." The door shut again. Harry stared blankly at the door, then brought his hand up. Slowly his eyes focused on a mass of blue polka-dot cloth. He shook it out. Hermione's bathing suit. - - - Well, if you say it's unisex, Grannybat, who am I to disagree with you? Jeff suggested on contraception: > > Ye old English methods, the lunar cycle, or even a spell. Jeff's mention of the "lunar cycle" pushes one to consider the situation of the werewolf girl on the rhythm method. If the full moon were to fall in the midst of her fertile period, that might serve as a reminder to her boyfriend to abstain from relations. Of course, if the full moon were to fall just prior to her menstrual cycle, the lycanthropic transformation might simply pass for mild PMS. Grannybat also said: > Regarding the larger question?what's to keep them from > employing the Magical form of The Pill? The Weasley Twins > use "double-ended, color-coded chews" in their Skiving Snackboxes, Many primitive tribes are reputed to have effective contraception. It's not hard to imagine a traditional "witch" - a rural woman with a knowledge of herbs and physiology and a brighter and more observant than her neighbors - working out the rhthym method just by keeping track of when the bull gets friendly with the cows. Real witches would long ago have worked out some simple spell to subtly interfere with the process: strengthen the egg wall, befuddle the sperm, or something. What after all is more typical of a hedge wizard than a "love potion"? If a contraceptive potion is not sister to a love potion, it's a least a cousin. We had best avoid imagining Fred and George testing a new contraceptive spell as they tested the Skiving Snackboxes, with first- years serving as guinea pigs. Grannybat continued: > The Pill is a product of organic chemistry. > Potion making is essentially organic chemistry. Muggle technology has advanced so much over the last hundred years that it's hard to imagine wizards keeping up. A broomstick would have been a marvelous form of transportation a hundred years ago. Now, though, if given the option many of us would hesistate because it must be even less comfortable than Coach, and we might desist altogther after remembering the lack of Frequent Flyer points. In medicine and psychiatry it's easier to believe that wizards can get results Muggles cannot. Maybe because in an airplane engineers can explain the purpose of every part and say how it's made,while no doctor can explain just how the body and mind function. There's room there for magic. - Caipora From happydogue at aol.com Thu Oct 30 01:51:52 2003 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:51:52 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Only Living Relative... REVISITED Message-ID: <15e.270b5f0d.2cd1c8b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83837 I missed something. Who is Mark? From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 02:01:28 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 02:01:28 -0000 Subject: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" > > Many primitive tribes are reputed to have effective contraception. > It's not hard to imagine a traditional "witch" - a rural woman with a knowledge of herbs and physiology and a brighter and more observant > than her neighbors - working out the rhthym method just by keeping > track of when the bull gets friendly with the cows. > > Real witches would long ago have worked out some simple spell to > subtly interfere with the process: strengthen the egg wall, befuddle the sperm, or something. What after all is more typical of a hedge wizard than a "love potion"? If a contraceptive potion is not sister > to a love potion, it's a least a cousin. Laura: The thought of magical equivalents of the pill made me wonder whether potions have side effects. (I'm only being partly whimsical here.) We know that sometimes charms and potions take a while to wear off but I wonder if they sometimes interfere with body chemistry in unexpected ways or if they can be dangerous in large doses. Maybe on the Hogwarts physical form there are questions about what herbs and potion ingredients the student might be allergic to? From o_caipora at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 02:04:49 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 02:04:49 -0000 Subject: The Ethics of Ethics (was No Sex, Please) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83839 Grannybat restated her cogent position: > > > [M]y argument is that this is exactly why Dumbledore > > > NEEDS to institute classes on ethics. The Magical world > > > is so comfortable--or so far in denial--regarding its > > > immoral, institutionalized attitudes and practices that > > > this society has to change or else it will keep devouring > > > itself until it dissolves. What better place to start > > > questioning an ingrained past than in school, > > > where the future citizens are trained? My response to this was possibly unclear and certainly verbose. Let me try again: One of the principal purposes of schools is to make chidren fit into society. A head of public education who enourages children to question certain basic principles of society will not long keep his job. Not in the real world, and (since Rowling strives to make her world real) not in the wizarding world. HOWEVER, Rowling can use the wizarding world to teach ethics to her readers. She does so, and more power to her. I find her economics implausible, but her ethics are dead on. > I'd say it is possible to start with existing, codified > law (just why aren't house elves allowed to wield > or even possess wands?) and extrapolate to the personal > and political from there. Probably been discussed here extensively, but the discriminatory treatment of other sentient non-humans is likely to be the crux of the next war, and the next two books. > It could be that classes in ethical philosophy do exist, > but only at the NEWT level. (In American schools, students > often don't encounter courses on complex "abstract" concepts > until college.) We don't see much - or any - abstraction in any Hogwarts class. The kids memorize spells, but no one ever says, "Today we're going to look at the principle of similarity and see how it's used in several basic spells." We hear that a potion made of mandrakes can reverse the effects of a basilisk petrification. We're never told why. Harry is asked where to find a bezoar; he's never told why it has magical properties, or how those properties differ from those of ambergris, and why. Maybe at NEWT level the kids are finally taught some of the why instead of just the how. Perhaps they will learn ethics too. >(Regarding the likelihood of Draco making a homophobic insinuation > about Harry & Ron's friendship) me: > > ...I was once a teenage boy, > > and this is just a generic insult. It's flung with wild abandon. Grannybat: > OK, so it doesn't have the power to force a confrontation that I > thought it did. Rowling will have to come up with some other > trigger point. "Oh, go polish your wand, Malfoy. I have more > important problems to worry about." Here I was definitely unclear. A generic accusation of "gay" by teenage boys is no more an accusation of homosexuality than "son of a bitch" suggests immediate werewolf ancestry on the maternal side. A serious, reasoned charge of homosexuality - say, pointing out to the entire Slytherin table at breakfast in the Great Hall that Potter has a curly red hair stuck in his teeth - would indeed force a confrontation. > I strongly suspect that Hermione acting the expert in > matters of the heart will bring her directly to harm?especially > since we've seen her buried alive by books in the course of > battle at the MoM. I hadn't caught that symbolism. Thank you. I don't suppose you see additional evidence for the "potency" of Gryffindor's sword in Potters use of it - to give Slytherin's Basilisk a prick in the mouth? Cheers, Caipora From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 02:37:29 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 02:37:29 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was:Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83840 wrote: > > Tom must have found out the details about his parents afterwards, > because we are told in GOF that his father had been living with his > parents at the Riddle house in Little Hangleton when TR was a > teenager. I am assuming that he was the "teenage boy, a stranger, > dark-haired and pale" (GOF p.9 UK edition). It must also have been > round about the time of the COS incident because we are old that the mysterious deaths occurred half a century ago before Voldemort > reoccupied it in 1992. > > This opens up several cans of worms. I am surprised that the Muggle > orphanage allowed him to attend Hogwarts when he got his letter. How did he manage to trace his father in a time when information about true parents was usually held secret? When did he start to show > magical powers? Laura: Nice one, Geoff! Lots of juicy stuff here for chewing over... Tom before Hogwarts: I would think that Tom learned early on how to charm and manipulate people, skills that he had honed well by the time of the CoS incident (see CoS p. 311-312 US). Hogwarts would be easy compared to a more impersonal institution like an orphanage. Tom, a very bright boy with more than the usual amount of survival skills, would have figured out very fast that the adults in charge were the ones to cultivate. As a young boy he may not even have had much of a goal in doing this other than to take ccare of himself the best way he could. As he grew older, though, he would see that adults who were powerful and fond of him could be used in more subtle ways. This is a kid who came to believe early on (I think) that he has been ill- treated by the world in general and his parents in particular, and intended to make the guilty parties pay. In contrast with Harry, whose deepest desire was to belong to some group who cared about him, Tom's deepest desire was to dominate those who rejected him as an infant. By extension, this came to include the entire world-wizard and muggle, because they had all, to his mind, played a part in abandoning him. Attending Hogwarts: Again, I think young Tom would have taken his Hogwarts letter straight to his favorite (read: most malleable) adult and made sure that that person would arrange for him to go to school. As someone else pointed out on this thread, it would be one less mouth to feed at the orphanage anyhow-a win all around. Showing his magical powers: Again, Tom is a contrast with Harry (at least in my theory-we have no canon on this point). Harry made things happen, but we have no evidence that he ever tried to repeat something he had done. Nor do we have evidence that he saw a pattern in the strange things he did, or that seemed to happen around him on occasion. He just tried to keep his head down and avoid getting into trouble when these things took place. Moreover, even after Harry learned about his powers, he didn't see them as means to an end. He just added them to his personal inventory of traits, abilities and talents. Tom, on the other hand, was very self-aware (we know this because we know he consciously created "Tom-the-model-student" when he got to Hogwarts), and I think he would have realized quickly that he could do things under stress that were out of the ordinary. Once he figured out that he could create these effects volitionally, it was off to the races. I doubt that he identified it as magic before he got his letter, but it wouldn't matter to him so much why he could do it as that he could. (It would matter a lot more why when he found out about his mother.) He'd know to be discreet about his powers at the orphanage, but you can bet that the other kids knew not to mess with him. Finding out about his parents: The suggestion elsewhere on this thread that he could have learned about his mother and her family at school makes a lot of sense. Goodness knows that in Harry's time there are plenty of gossips in and around Hogwarts, and I assume the same was true in Tom's era. As for his dad's side, we know that Tom went back to the orphanage during the summers and school vacations (CoS p. 244 US) So I'm sure he used every opportunity to sweet-talk his adult mentors there into giving him information about his family. And anything the adults wouldn't tell him he could find out for himself-magic does have its uses, doesn't it? From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 03:12:34 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:12:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) (was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > Laura and I came down rather hard on Dumbledore. > I can't speak for Laura, but I'm being hard on Dumbledore because he has effectively taken the fate of the world onto his shoulders. It's only to be expected that he be held to a higher standard then other people. But as a leader of men, a general of war, Dumbledore falls tragically short of the mark. Among his so-called adult supporters, Dumbledore is quite heavily criticized. Snape doesn't understand why Dumbledore trusts Lupin and tolerates Sirius. Molly feels the same about Sirius and Mundungus, and Sirius has grave reservations about Snape (apparently, so does Bill Weasley). Sirius openly criticizes Dumbledore for forcing him to remain cooped up in Grimmauld Place, and Harry criticizes Dumbledore quite frequently in OOP. ...an organization such as the OOP is not a democracy, and disgruntlement with a leader as we see it expressed in the book - as grumbling among the troops - is not a good sign (admittedly, we never see Dumbledore interacting with the order, but the peripheral results of his leadership paint a disturbing picture). And indeed, the results are disheartening. Sirius and Snape nearly come to blows. Mundungus blows off his shifts to conduct shady dealings. Harry slacks off in his Occlumency practice, which Snape eventually terminates, despite Dumbledore specific orders. > In short, Dumbledore has collected a group of talented people committed to the cause of defeating Voldemort, but he has failed to form them into a cohesive unit. Paula is right to point out that Dumbledore is not a confrontational person - he always prefers the path diplomacy and discourse to that of argument and battle (although he is willing to take the latter when and if it is > necessary), but avoiding necessary confrontation and allowing his followers to pursue their destructive behavior is not a good quality in a leader, and in this case it has lead to disastrous results. > Dumbledore is a remarkably unemotional man, sometimes > maddeningly so. This makes him remarkable, but it also blinds him. He expects his followers to act as coldly as he does, simply on his say-so. ...he's focused on the big picture, and fails to take into account the petty concerns and bruised feelings of his soldiers. Laura: Having Abigail speak for me is an honor! I'd like to add a couple of things here. I wonder if one of DD's problems is that he's trying to be all things to all of his people. That is, he wants to be a general, devising strategy based on knowledge only he has. But he also wants to be a parental figure, trusted implicitly and able to care for everyone's needs. The general doesn't need to be responsive to the concerns of the troops but the parent does need to be responsive to the feelings of his children. He treats people like Harry and Sirius like battle- hardened, experienced troops when they need to be treated like injured and lonely children. (Sirius was emotionally abandoned by his family early on and imprisoned during his early adulthood, so he still has lots of problems from his childhood weighing on him.) For the sake of holding onto all the threads himself, he keeps information from his supporters that might ease some of their tensions-for example, what the story is with Snape. He makes himself inacessible to people who need him, although he could very well find ways to communicate if he chose to. I'm not sure that I'd agree with Abigail that the Order isn't a democracy. Well, maybe it's more of a republic, in that it's created not only by DD but by the other members who see the need for an organized defense against LV. I think they choose DD as much as he chooses them, and for that reason he owes more to them than he gives them. Also, I'm not sure all of the tensions among the Order members can be called petty. Yeah, Molly is way out of line throughout OoP. But we learn in this book that maybe Snape really did have good reason to hate the Marauders, and his anger has never been addressed or satisfied. And Harry been taught by DD himself to trust DD and look to him as the ultimate source of knowledge and support. So it's hardly petty to feel rage and utter frustration when DD takes himself out of the picture and refuses to explain why. As for Sirius...we listees have our differences about whether he was justified in feeling and acting the way he did, and many of you may know that I'm completely on Sirius's side. Was the use of Grimmauld Place worth Sirius's life? Yeah, DD has a lot to answer for. Laura, who apologizes for snipping so much of Abigail's terrific post From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 03:25:52 2003 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:25:52 -0000 Subject: Only Living Relative... REVISITED In-Reply-To: <15e.270b5f0d.2cd1c8b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > I missed something. Who is Mark? Mark is Mark Evans, the ten year old that Dudley and his gang beat up for fun, mentioned during the first chapter of OotP. He is significant (we think) because he shares a surname with Harry's mum Lily Potter nee Evans. Meri From dcyasser at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 04:23:32 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:23:32 -0000 Subject: Calling Fawkes Re: Dumbledore's Actions in MOM Duel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > I do think Dumbledore was stalling, seeing as "Tom" stumbled into > the trap the Order set for him in the MOM, to retrieve the prophecy orb for himself and thus be revealed to the wizard world at large. (I think I'm giving the right credit to say this was first proposed in Magic Dishwasher TBAY post #81010). When Dumbledore says, "It was foolish to come here tonight, Tom.." (OOTP, US hardcover, chap. 36, p. 813), that seemed like the equivalent of saying "Check" to your chess opponent--you've made a grave tactical error, Tom. > > The effects of the spell on the shield made me wonder if this was Dumbledore's emergency call to Fawkes. Fawkes shows up shortly after this incident. No, DD couldn't have known LV would conjure a shield, thus making the sound, but it's an interesting thought. dc: Hi Jen Thanks for correcting me on "spell" vs "curse," because you're right, it's an important distinction. But now I'm going over this little piece of book again and again, not necessarily because it contans some great clue, but because it just stands out in my last read-through, and I love how she wrote it. So here's the deal: (US hardcover pp 811-812) "Dumbledore flicked his own wand. The force of the spell that eminated from it was such that Harry, though shielded by his stone guard, felt his hair stand on end as it passed, and this time Voldemort was forced to conjure a shining silver shield out of thin air to deflect it. The spell, whatever it was, caused no visible damage to the shield, though a deep, gonglike note reverberated from it, an oddly chilling sound..." Dumbledore's powerful spell causes no visible damage to Voldemort's shield. But Harry finds the sound oddly chilling. Uh oh. Little hairs up on the back of the neck. Because the gonglike note announces that DD cannot damage LV? Because Harry will be told, before the night is out, that he is the one who has to resolve this battle? And that little piece of information is going to reverberate for Harry, impact him and everyone around him? (Or is the chilling sound a warning for LV, because the spell caused no *visible* damage but must have affected him in some way? Nah. Then it would sound like phoenix song to Harry! Speaking of phoenix, I think Fawkes just knows when to come, in time to save Dumbledore, much as Dumbledore appeared just in time to save Harry. Nice choreography all around.) I still think DD was using spells to actively trying to stop Voldemort, to protect Harry, who was so close and so vulnerable. Yet ultimately, he couldn't protect Harry; only Harry's emotions threw Voldemort from him. Harry saved himself, even if unintentionally. So does the gong signal the passing of the Dark- Lord-Defeater torch from Dumbledore to Harry? That's kind of nifty. But think about poor Harry, watching this amazing duel of serious magical powers, and thinking "I can't do that..." - dc, who has written too much about a single note but finds it so interesting. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 06:46:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:46:48 -0000 Subject: Nonsensical Note: Re: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" > > ...edited... If a contraceptive potion is not sister to a love potion, > it's a least a cousin. > > Laura: > > The thought of magical equivalents of the pill made me wonder whether > potions have side effects. (I'm only being partly whimsical here.) bboy_mn (who knows this is utter nonsense but cracks on anyway): So, if a witch has an intimate fluid encounter with a wizard, and shortly afterwards inchants the spell 'accio semen', what are the odds that, with a slightly erroneous vocal inflection, a bunch of sailors will come busting through the door? I warned you it was utter nonsense, but you went and read it anyway. I do have a small point here, and that is contraceptive charms and potions seem well within reason and well within likelihood to me. Given the range of spells we have heard of, like spell to make you nose hairs grow into ringlets (GoF), spells to make leeks sprout out of your ears, spell in which you are attacked by flying bat snot, etc...; contraceptive spells seem positively bland by comparison. Just a randy thought or two. bboy_mn From strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 29 15:30:36 2003 From: strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:30:36 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" meriaugust at y... wrote: > Thanks for clearing up the muddled knowledge of an American. My > confusion basically lay in the fact that in America we have no > figure-head head of state, because the president is given actual > power, and your post helped to clear that up for me, so thank you! > Bookworm: > In political terms, the US has both a Head of State and a Head of > Government - they just both happen to be the same person (the > President). In the UK, France, and other countries, the Head of > State and Head of Government are two different people: the Queen and > Prime Minister in the UK, and the Prime Minister and the President > in France (if I remember my French political system lectures > correctly - it was a long time ago ). > > The Minister of Magic would be the Head of Government. Is he also > the Head of State, or since JKR is British, does she unconsciously > include the Queen without really talking or thinking about it? now lola ( I was laura, but there's another laura...) The Minister of Magic is a member of the Prime Minister's cabinet, so the Prime Minister is his superior. This has has been indicated on a number of occasions, most recently when the Death Eaters escaped Azkaban, and Fudge told the Prime Minister something about 'the dangerous nature'(not exact quote, sorry). As I understand it, Any law passed in the UK has to be signed by the Queen, so the Prime Minister is inferior to the Queen because he himself can't pass a law. That would make the Queen the official Head of State of the British wizarding community. However, functionally, the Minister of Magic must be the Head of State because the Queen can hardly have an in-depth knowledge about wizarding affairs, can she? Lola xxx From mail at chartfield.net Wed Oct 29 19:13:19 2003 From: mail at chartfield.net (queen_astrofiammante) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:13:19 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83846 Eloise wrote in Chapter 4 summary: [snip] > Atmosphere building: > Chiefly in the detailed description of no 12. > [snip] > Plot: > Build up to the revelation that Sirius comes from a family of Dark wizards. Emphasis on the theme of secrecy: Dumbledore wants to keep Harry in ignorance, but the reason why is at this stage not revealed. > Questions: 1) How effective is the atmosphere-building in this chapter? What is the reader's initial reaction to Grimmauld place? Are there any features which lift it beyond being a stock gothic horror setting? How effective is it when we realise that this is Sirius' family home? Now me (Astrofiammante): There's a sentence in this chapter that turned me cold on my second reading of OoTP - you might put it under the heading of 'foreshadowing'. "The others' hushed voices were giving Harry an odd feeling of foreboding; it was as though they had just entered the house of a dying person." Astrofiammante www.deadjournal.com/users/astrofiammante From Berkana_01 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 22:42:19 2003 From: Berkana_01 at hotmail.com (Joanna Barra) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:42:19 +0000 Subject: : RE: Where Percy got Scabbers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83847 Nineve: Does any one knows where Percy got Scabbers? If he was his pet before, Pilotjb3: Great point and one I never thought of. Where did Scabbers come from? After the way Percy acted in OOTP he my well have had a allegiance with the dark Side long ago. He has long thought that his family being poor was due to the fact that his parents didn't rub elbows with the right people. Maybe he thinks the Dark side is the right one to rub elbows with to get what he wants. ................................ Yes...I can't remember what HP bk it was in, but do you all remember Percy reading 'Prefects who gain power? I believe he was in league with the dark side, so to speak, for a very long time and maybe before he received Scabbers. But I think Ron had said that Scabbers was very old when Percy had him, so I am wondering, who gave him to Percy? ml joanna c _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From mookie1552 at aol.com Thu Oct 30 02:03:14 2003 From: mookie1552 at aol.com (Jennifer) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 02:03:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's true purpose Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83848 After reading Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, I started thinking about all of the animals in the WW. My favorite the griffin, JKR describes as having "the front legs of a giant eagle, but the body and hind legs of a lion." (pg 20) It is an important animal in the HP series because in searching I have found that Gryffindor literally means "golden griffin" ( "or" is French for gold) Harry's house is not named for a golden griffin per se, but for Godric Gryffindor. The symbol for the Gryffindor house is not a griffin but favors the lion symbol of power. The Sorting Hat almost put Harry in Slytherin, but Harry wound up in Gryffindor (thankfully). In DD's eyes Harry is considered a true Gryffindor. (CoS, pg. 334) But consider this, Harry's parents lived in Godric Hollow...a coincidence...not in HP land. The houses of Gryffindor and Slytherin are the antithesis of each other, good vs. evil. LV was the heir of Slytherin, thus his main motivation centers on Harry's true purpose and identity, Harry is sole heir of Godric Gryffindor and can be seen as the king of wizards. Think about it, where did Harry's fortune come from? I believe its the trappings of royalty, the Gryffindor family jewels. If the Potter wealth is inherited, it makes sense that James could afford an invisiblity cloak at such a young age, since they're rare and valuable SS pg. 201 Harry will find out his great secret and become the great wizard he is destined to be. --but what do I know? Harry Halloween!!! From cmbrichards at aol.com Thu Oct 30 04:33:58 2003 From: cmbrichards at aol.com (cmbrichards) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:33:58 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle's Birth Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83849 First of all I would like to say "hello". Have been reading all the posts, just not a lot of time to respond, but love the ideas yall have. As far as LV finding out about his mom being a witch and his birthfather's name, it has occured to me that it is possible he knew nothing at all about it until his 11th birthday. His letter would have been addressed to him, but if he had assumed another name, could it have been sent with both names on it? Once he had the name, he could search through old courthouse records, newspapers, deeds, etc. to try and find his relatives. It is also possible that after he came into the wizarding world, his mothers family approached him or he approached them, with someone at the school actually having known his mother in her youth giving him a brief history about his mother. At this point anything is possible though, and I could be WAY off. From Jpcfaith at aol.com Thu Oct 30 06:27:36 2003 From: Jpcfaith at aol.com (hypatia423) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:27:36 -0000 Subject: Severus and the DADA post (why he won't get it) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83850 Severus is already in a precarious and vulnerable position with his work for the Order. To have him in the DADA post would give Voldemort, when he got around to it, a foot in the door to start making subtle, behind the scenes "suggestions". Despite his skill at Occlumency, I think Severus is very much at risk, because I doubt Voldemort trusts him completely and perhaps not at all. I think he's sitting back and watching Severus, biding his time, and plans to test his loyalty at a later date. Recall the Sorting Hat song at the beginning of OOTP, particularly the line "Our Hogwarts is in danger from external, deadly foes"....The Ministry interfered, yes, with that (expletive) Umbridge, but I don't see the Ministry as "deadly" except through incompetence. I think Voldemort at some point will take a particular interest in Hogwarts, and I believe it is he that the Sorting Hat refers to. DD was fully aware of the implications of the Harry-Voldemort scar connection and the subtle, underhanded way Voldemort works. He is keeping Severus out of the DADA post for possibly the same reasons he avoided eye contact with Harry and insisted he learn Occlumency. I have read and been fascinated by all the recent posts on this subject, and also have to agree the "alcoholic" theory has merit. Severus is vulnerable not only as spy for the Order, but by his very nature;his inability to let go of old wounds, the degree that his hardships in life have scarred him, and by his deep need for recognition and respect. I believe he has the same "saving people thing" that Harry has, and that he will finally achieve recognition for what will be true heroism- at the cost of his life. I'm new here and would love comments on the above. From kewpiebb99 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 09:11:50 2003 From: kewpiebb99 at yahoo.com (Kewpie) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:11:50 -0000 Subject: Awful Boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83851 > I'm sorry too if this has been discussed before. > > I don't think she was referring to James either. The expression she > used : "that awful boy", doesn't strike me as being one she would use > to talk about her brother-in-law. In my idea, she would just say > something like " *he* ", and everyone would know who she's talking > about. > > Moreover, "that awful boy" makes me feel like she's talking about > someone *whose name she doesn't remember*. It's the kind of thing we > all do : "you know, that woman with red hair", or "I met that guy, > the one with the Jaguar". I'm surprise why James is considered completely, absolutely *zero* possibility of being associate as "awful", afterall his character was pretty darn AWLFUL from the pensive scene. He's arrogant, he steals (for own pleasure), he hexes anyone who annoys him (provoke or unprovoke) just because he can, calling insulting nicknames and taunts another based on their physical attributes, he attacked Snape two-against-one, just because Sirius was bored. He basically acted like the cocky popular kid + big bully who own the school. Even though his ego might have deflated a little bit later, some habit/attitude just don't go away like that. No one "changes" instantly into some super *angelic* person in such a short time that his former ugly side could have been completely *disappear*. His attitude and arrogance probably still remains when dating Lily (but at least changed in a way that Lily found attractive, who knows maybe she had hots for him all along). He could still have been acting he's "all-that" in front of Lily's family. Maybe he pulled some stupid prank (that only himself would find *amusing*) on Petunia. So yeah I found it perfectly plaustible why Petunia found James "awful." James was never some perfect angelic being. He can be cruel to someone else, and absolutely no regard of others' feelings and hurting them emotionally and physically. He could totally be awful to people he doesn't like as the Pensieve has shown us. In the time of war he fought bravely for the Order could make him a heroic person, but doesn't mean he's some kind-hearted soul with absolute virtue who behavor properly and be "nice" to other people. James was an awful boy, and I agree with Petunia. Joan From elfundeb at comcast.net Thu Oct 30 11:00:43 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:00:43 -0500 Subject: TBAY: Evil! McGonagall Revisited (WAS: Who Will Betray the Order? Message-ID: <011a01c39ed5$106b5c80$9ddc5644@aoldsl.net> No: HPFGUIDX 83852 Debbie scans the empty shores of Theory Bay. The summer tourists have gone, and Kirstini's souvenir shack sits deserted. Debbie spies an old newspaper scrap caught in a crevice and pulls it out. The headline reads, "Who Will Betray the Order?" The article, signed by Pippin, states: We are looking for someone who is supposed to be > nice, and close enough to Harry for him to take the betrayal > personally. I'd say the candidates are: Dumbledore, Hagrid, > Hermione, Lupin, Molly and Ron. Any others? Most of you know > which one I'd pick. Wait a minute, Debbie thinks. Where's McGonagall on that list? She's supposed to be nice. She should be considered *close* to Harry - she's his Head of House, and she's cut him a few breaks over the years. Debbie draws a deep breath and shouts, "Elkins!" No response. "Elkins! Are you here?" Still no response. "Elkins! They've forgotten EverSoEvil!McGonagall!" There is no sound in Theory Bay except the wind and the waves lapping the shoreline. Debbie spies a scaffold near the souvenir stand, undoubtedly used to execute discredited theories, and quickly climbs on the landing. She clears her throat and begins to speak loudly. <> Debbie stops and smiles out at the imaginary crowd, letting the details sink in. After a few moments, though, she begins to frown, then draws herself up again and resumes speaking louder than ever, though her voice is beginning to show signs of hoarseness. <> Debbie bows to the imaginary crowd, steps down off the scaffold, and sets off for the Royal George. Debbie (with apologies to Elkins for stealing her theory) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 30 11:39:58 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:39:58 -0000 Subject: Righties and lefties in Potterverse / Wand taboos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > > Alshain wrote: > > When Harry buys his wand in PS, Ollivander specifically asks him > about his wand hand, and Harry answers that he's right-handed. So I > think there must be a difference (SNIP) > > > Now me: > The reason Mr. Olivander asked which hand Harry uses was to see which > was the dominant one, not because there is a difference in the shape > of the wand. > Whoops. I meant difference in function, not in shape. Sorry. There might or might not be some subtle differences, but Harry isn't likely to examine every new character's wand closely. Come to think of it, left-hand and right-hand differences might not be as visible as differences in size, materials and cores. I also started to wonder if wizards and witches might be superstitious about their wands in any way. Wands are broken when persons are expelled from Hogwarts and non-humans aren't allowed them, do they have some symbolic meaning apart from being magical tools? There seem to be no taboos about using the wands of other wizards (I mean the kind of taboo existing in Philip Pullman's books about not touching other people's daemons), it's just that you don't get optimal results. For a society so old-fashioned and so dependent on magic, the WW seems to have very modern, rationalist ideas about their wands. Alshain From alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 30 12:18:29 2003 From: alshainofthenorth at yahoo.co.uk (alshainofthenorth) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:18:29 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was:Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Finding out about his parents: > > The suggestion elsewhere on this thread that he could have learned > about his mother and her family at school makes a lot of sense. > Goodness knows that in Harry's time there are plenty of gossips in > and around Hogwarts, and I assume the same was true in Tom's era. > As for his dad's side, we know that Tom went back to the orphanage > during the summers and school vacations (CoS p. 244 US) So I'm sure > he used every opportunity to sweet-talk his adult mentors there into > giving him information about his family. And anything the adults > wouldn't tell him he could find out for himself-magic does have its > uses, doesn't it? Alshain: Bravissima! Tom, lad, art surely sharp enough to cut thyself. Sorry to jump in, but reading your post I realised that this could be another of the aspects where Harry differs from Tom Riddle, in his lack of curiosity about his family that many have complained about. Riddle is the one who actively (and prematurely) searches for knowledge about his background (and how ironic would it be, to find out that he might have been mistaken about his father), Harry accepts it passively, letting it come to him. In lots of folk tales we get the lesson that searching for knowledge you aren't mature enough to accept has bad consequences (the wife of Bluebeard, for example). Does Harry refrain from asking questions about his family because he unconsciously knows that he might not be able to handle the answers? Alshain From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 12:34:22 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:34:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: What's Sirius There For? Message-ID: <20031030123422.20396.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83855 30Oct03 *Snip* Mandy wrote: Sirius was there to illustrate the terrible pain of loosing a beloved one. Pain and loss that is different to Harry than the loss of his parents who he didn't know. I'm afraid Sirius is not coming back. Sorry to all you Sirius fans. But that is life, and the sheer brilliance of JKR's writing is it realism. *End Snip* Paula now: I have to disagree. A recent post pointed to the fact that Sirius had the important task of exposing Wormtail, Pettigrew as the murderer of Harry's parents and traitor to LV's side. As I posted a few days ago: Even Nearly Headless Nick's certainty that Sirius has "gone on" is not so convincing when he himself (Nick) admits that he knows nothing of the secrets of death. Remember too that upon hearing of Surius' demise that his great-great grandfather, Phineus immediately leaves his frame in Dumbledore's office and could have possibly fled to his frame at Grimmauld Place, maybe to inform Sirius that Harry thought he was dead and was having a talk with DD. Remember that Phineus is already dead, so wouldn't he have known if Sirius had died? In addition, Phinius spoke to Harry from his picture frame at Grimmauld Place telling him not to leave. He's becoming more and more involved in the saga's plot. With JKR's talent for plot development, I still feel that Sirius is among us, but has had to resort to drastic measures to go undercover. The Malfoys certainly know (and have probably told others) about Sirius' habit of sometimes going out as Snuffles. So, "death" behind the Veil would have been the perfect opportunity to create another cover. Lucius Malfoy was even present. No, no, I'm not giving up on Sirius so easily. I'm still holding on to a ray of hope that he's fighting the Dark Lord. ~Paula "Griff" Gaon Previous | Next | Back to Messages Save Message Text --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artcase at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 13:44:23 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:44:23 -0000 Subject: Awful Boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kewpie" wrote: ...snip...snip > James was an awful boy, and I agree with Petunia. > > Joan I would disagree that Petunia called James awful because of his behavior, remember his head deflated somewhat before Lily accepted his affections. Petunia seems to be under the impression that just about anyone that does magic and LIKES that life is awful. Let alone someone who does magic and doesn't profit from it and make their lives, and the lives of their family better in the terms of "keep up with the Jones" - suburban life better. James probably did not drive a fancy car, wear nice suits, or run in the elite muggle circles that pleased Petunia perfectly. So, in conclusion, James was awful, and not meritoriously muggle. Art From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 30 13:54:09 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:54:09 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83857 --- "Steve" wrote:...edited... > --- "Jennifer" wrote: Jennifer: ...edited... > > Where Scabbers came from is a great question, and I have > > pondered it in the past. All of your explainations have been > > very good, but still I feel has not filled the void in my mind. > > > Suggestion; in the dead of night, Peter transforms back to his > human-self and apparates to safe locations > > > >The Weasley's ..., I feel that nothing was going on of importance > > for Scabbers to get information about. > > While his specific job relates to bewitched muggle artifacts, he > DOES work in the Department of Magical Law Enforcement (OoP US Ed > HB pg 130), and his job is to protect muggles from attacks by > malevolent wizards. > > Also, Arthur seems very well connected at the Ministry, and he seems > very well liked. In addition, working in Law Enforcement, he would > be well informed about what was happening in the wizard world. > > No, I'm sticking with ... Peter knew of the Weasleys and their > circumstances fit his needs nicely. However, I won't go so > far as to say that the Weasley's were his first choice. Why Arthur or Percy Weasley? ... Don't you mean, why Ron Weasly as a future Hogwoarts student that will be Harry's classmate? Peter could return to human form at times to influence Percy or Ron as they slept with mind altering spells similar to Kingsley to Marietta in OotP27. They would wake thinking the idea was theirs to accept the Rat or pass him onto the youngest brother, bypassing the twins. How much older than Ron was Percy? At what age do you think Percy could have been allowed a rat? ~aussie~ From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 14:07:47 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:07:47 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83858 > Geoff wrote: > > How did he manage to trace his father in a time when information > > about > > > true parents was usually held secret? > > > > Ginger: > > Um, perhaps by his name? And the story that went with it? > > Not meaning to be saucy, but that did hit me right away ;) > > > > Geoff again: > I don't know whether you're in the UK or not, but certainly in the > case of adoptions and possibly orphanage situations (look at Oliver > Twist for example), the details of parents are withheld. Ginger: Sorry. I was using US orphanages as my resource. A good friend of mine was raised in one. So in the UK at that time, names were changed? That really makes me wonder why he went *back* to Tom Marvolo Riddle if he had spent his early years as, say Bob Jones. You'd think he would have wanted nothing to do with Tom Riddle, unless he found out about the abandonment later, after he had switched back to his "true, wizarding name", which turned out to be Muggle after all. Still, I'd think that he'd have been used to Bob. In real life, I have two names, a given one, and a nickname I was given in my late 20's that stuck. (neither is Ginger, BTW). I know how confusing it is to be called by two different names by different people. Geoff: Going back on one or two of the coat hooks which I hung > up and which have been used, someone raised the point about what > happened to Tom Riddle after his birth. Did he stay in the orphanage > (I implied this in my post without realising it at the time) or was > he sent out to a family? > > Further question - is there any significance that he seems to lay the > blame completely on his father? > Ginger: I would have thought that he would have stayed there due to his conversation with Dippet, but, as Pippen pointed out (thanks for the educating, Pippen) small children were fostered out and then returned. As to his laying blame on his father, if he knows what we know, and nothing more, I'd say that's exactly where the blame lies! Significance? That hatred led him to become an Evil Overlord. He couldn't very well blame his mother for dying, and I don't think her people even knew he existed. I would have to wonder if he tried to contact them and how that went if they were still alive. I do hope we get more of his backstory. And thanks, Geoff, for filling me in on the UK orphanage stuff. I learn so much here! Best wishes to all, Ginger From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 14:17:46 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:17:46 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? In-Reply-To: <20031030123422.20396.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83859 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Paula Gaon wrote: With JKR's talent for plot development, I still feel that Sirius is among us, but > has had to resort to drastic measures to go undercover. The Malfoys certainly know (and have probably told others) about Sirius' habit of sometimes going out as Snuffles. So, "death" behind the Veil would have been the perfect opportunity to create another cover. Lucius Malfoy was even present. No, no, I'm not giving up on Sirius so easily. I'm still holding on to a ray of hope that he's fighting the Dark Lord. Now Entropy: What I find suspicious is that Lupin is the one who holds Harry back after Sirius falls through the veil, and tells Harry with certainty that Sirius is dead. How does he know this? How could someone who is not employed by the Dept. of Mysteries, let alone not in the Ministry at all, know what that veil is and what it means? It seems unlikely that he would know unless, perhaps, he was told what his reaction should be beforehand. :: Entropy :: From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 14:25:07 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:25:07 -0000 Subject: Nonsensical Note: Re: No Sex, Please, We're British In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83860 > bboy_mn (who knows this is utter nonsense but cracks on anyway): > > So, if a witch has an intimate fluid encounter with a wizard, and > shortly afterwards inchants the spell 'accio semen', what are the odds > that, with a slightly erroneous vocal inflection, a bunch of sailors > will come busting through the door? > > I warned you it was utter nonsense, but you went and read it anyway. > > I do have a small point here, and that is contraceptive charms and > potions seem well within reason and well within likelihood to me. > Given the range of spells we have heard of, like spell to make you > nose hairs grow into ringlets (GoF), spells to make leeks sprout out > of your ears, spell in which you are attacked by flying bat snot, > etc...; contraceptive spells seem positively bland by comparison. > > Just a randy thought or two. > > bboy_mn Ginger (who just has to jump in on this thread): Bad Steve, bad joke. Go to your room. Ok, I laughed. Anyway, I agree totally that with all the other spells (and potions) we have heard about, this would have been a priority during the Spell Invention Era. As they have locomotor mortis and petrificus totalus, I don't see why they wouldn't have a Chastity Charm (yeah, more like a curse, but I went for alliteration) for girls. I just can't see Molly letting Ginny leave home without one. I'm sure there's a (painless) temporary version of a vasectomy, possibly even a permanent one. Or an egg freezing charm. Not literally freezing, but preventing their travel down their intended path until the witch is ready to use them. Just don't ask me to supply the incantations. Patrificus ova? Nah. With knowledge of the human body, anything is possible. Are we getting into the waters of the Isles of Raised Eyebrows yet? Sorry if this was too explicit for anyone's tastes. Then again, there's always the ghosts. Total lack of privacy is a highly effective form of birth control. Ginger, who doesn't read fanfic (I'm too easily confused), but bets this has been covered with great imagination. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Oct 30 15:05:43 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:05:43 -0000 Subject: Dobby revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > > Yeah, when I first read Leb's post I found the idea a bit far-fetched > too. However, I was thinking (this isn't something that happens > regularly anymore, so bear with me) - > As I see it, this is a question of learned ethics. Winky and Kreacher > both assume the ethics of their families - we hear the judgements of > Crouch and Black (sounds like a firm of solicitors)in the > phrases "bad Dark wizard" and "blood traitor brats" respectively. > Dobby doesn't. Dobby, in fact, rebels against the Malfoy ethos so > utterly as to make a subjective judgement about the rights and wrongs > of his family's position. Fine. Dobby is a Thinking Elf. He's a hippy > Elf, an independant, rogue Elf. But where did he learn his > alternative morality from? An Ethical Elf. Sounds like a refugee from the sixties, obsessed by the lore of LotR and insisting that recreational pharmaceuticals must be organically produced by peasant co-operatives. OK, I don't necessarily agree with all that I say here; consider it an exercise in speculative deduction. Some of it I do mean - guess which is which. The problem (or one of the problems) is we don't know if Elves have ethics and if they do whether or not they are compatible with ours. To those that say any ethics must be the same I point to the Centaurs. They are ethical, but not as we (or maybe wizards) are. Differing standards for differing circumstances. (Incidentally, was Crouch a "bad Dark Wizard?" I don't think Winky said that of him, only that outsider vistors were. Or have I misunderstood you?) Let's consider the Relocation situation first. I can only think of two possible circumstances where this office is consulted. Firstly if the family an Elf serves dies out, so that there is nowhere else for it to go and secondly if the Elf's master decides the Elf has got to go. An Elf may be unhappy, but nothing is going to happen unless its owner releases it. If an Elf is considered surplus to requirements you can be certain that the Office makes damn sure that there will be no future conflicts of loyalty. (I still lean towards magical contracts being involved, freely entered into but thereafter strictly enforced.) Since an Elf is bound to obey the family (or at least that branch of it that the Elf is attached to) any feelings it has are irrelevant when put against this fundamental fact. This, to me, is the basic ethic of Elves. Service, maybe not with a smile, but certainly not with a revolt. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not, this is how it is presented, the canon. The evidence seems to show that Dobby interprets rules so that he can slide out of his apparent commitment to his family. We may think this is a good thing because it suits our reading of the plot and of the characters surrounding him, but do the other Elves? No, they don't. He is a disgrace to Elfdom so far as they are concerned. Dobby is in breach of their ethics both in his words and his actions. Just as Firenze is with Centaur society. The difference between the two? Interesting. Do you totally trust Dobby? As much as you would trust Firenze? I don't. Firenze seems to have made his stance as a matter of principle; and Dobby? More a matter of "can I use this to get out of here?" Truth matters to Firenze, to Dobby I suspect that it is negociable, depending on circumstances. Very like my reading of Lucius Malfoy, in fact. DD is on record as saying that Elves are what we have made them. And it was Malfoy that made Dobby (so far as we know). So enigmatic, conniving Malfoy beats up Dobby. Enigmatic, conniving Dobby does more or less the same to Harry. Gets him into trouble (with the Underage Magic squad and with Ron into serious hassle after blocking them at the station), deliberately injures him (for his own good, of course) and will not give him essential information. Downright obtuse, in fact. We suspect that Dobby has some previous connection to the Potters. It's a possibility and a fertile thread for posters, but there are other, so far ignored possibilties. Dobby is using Harry to get what Dobby wants - out of the Malfoy house and into paid employment; something he could not get any other way. Or, Dobby is truly a Malfoy Elf and is playing his Master's game, on instructions. Not likely, but what a lovely twist! Dobby will know all about Dark Magic. He probably did the dusting down in the hidey-hole where Malfoy hides the good stuff. He'll know why it's hidden, too. The more I consider Dobby the more he comes to resemble Lucius. That's worrying. Ignore what he says, watch what he does. He's not very nice at all. Kneasy From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 15:10:30 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:10:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] : RE: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031030151030.50915.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83862 --- Joanna Barra wrote: > ................................ > > Yes...I can't remember what HP bk it was in, but do > you all remember Percy > reading 'Prefects who gain power? I believe he was > in league with the dark > side, so to speak, for a very long time and maybe > before he received > Scabbers. But I think Ron had said that Scabbers was > very old when Percy had > him, so I am wondering, who gave him to Percy? > > ml > > joanna > c That was the second book and I still maintain he was meeting Penny and just grabbed up a book when he saw the others coming into the store. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 12:29:27 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:29:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kreacher (was Re: Ch Disc: Ch 4 No. Twelve, Grimmauld Place) Message-ID: <20031030122927.58212.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83863 30October2003 Shirley wrote: <> Granny responds: I don't know. I'd imagined a completely different scenario. For one thing, the time element is problematic in Shirley's scenario. How would Kreacher have known that Harry was going to appear in the fire place? Then, when Harry did appear, would he have had time to go up, injure Buckbeak (a hippogriff isn't exactly a docile creature), iron his hands, then return to Harry? Remember, Harry was speaking from Umbridge's fireplace and was pressed for time. So, this conversation occured in a very short time span. I think that Kreacher had already injured Buckbeak and took advantage of Sirius' absence to lie to Harry. Now why he wanted to injure BB is a matter of conjection. I imagine that he was probably trying to make a quick escape to somehow rendez-vous with some of the Death Eaters. Remember, Kreacher was serving 2 masters after Sirius shouted at him in anger to get out. However, Kreacher was probably not aware of the protocol of bowing before mounting a Hippogriff, tried to just hop onto his back, and in the ensuing struggle both he and BB were injured. This seems the most logical to me. Anyone else have other ideas? Granny Goodwitch --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 30 15:38:37 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:38:37 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was:Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83864 > wrote: SNIP > Finding out about his parents: SNIP > As for his dad's side, we know that Tom went back to the orphanage > during the summers and school vacations (CoS p. 244 US) So I'm sure > he used every opportunity to sweet-talk his adult mentors there into giving him information about his family. And anything the adults wouldn't tell him he could find out for himself-magic does have its uses, doesn't it? Um, let's not forget the fact that, well, duh--he has the same name as his father!!! "My name is Tom Riddle...hmmm, I should look up any other people (muggles) with the name Riddle to see if I might have some family....oh, look here! It says there is a Tom Riddle in Little Hangleton...hmmm... I'll go check it out...." Young Tommy wanders his way to Little Hangleton and finds the stately Riddle House. "Yes, a fine place to start my search for family." He walks up and knocks on door. "Hello? Yes, my name is Tom Riddle--I was wondering...see, I'm an orphan...might we be related?" Father Tom points and shreiks at his spawn, "Ack!! You have my eyes!! (or something)" Tom asks innocently, "My name is Tom *Marvolo* Riddle--does that mean anything? I'm wondering if you can help..." Father Tom pales and begins to shake. "You..you're one of ...*them*-- -**HERS**---that *freak*----get out! I wanted nothing to do with her and I want nothing to do with you! You've no family here!!!" Young Tom leaves rejected and dejected. His understanding grows as perhaps he hears stories from townfolk of the wife that had suddenly disappeared of the elder Tom and the sudden end of their marriage. Young Tom narrows his eyes and thinks, "I'll make you pay you muggle bastard, I'll make *all* of you pay!!!" And thus, the motivation for the next Dark Lord begins. And they all lived not-so-happily ever after (well, ok, they didn't *all* live...). Ayra From mail at chartfield.net Thu Oct 30 15:49:40 2003 From: mail at chartfield.net (queen_astrofiammante) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:49:40 -0000 Subject: London locations (was Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83865 >First June said: "My geographical siting of 12 Grimmauld Place was (for no other reason but that I know them fairly well) either Hackney in North East London or Stoke Newington - similarly located and virtually next door. Both these areas are full of large victorian properties which are how shall I put it? Run down. Ever so slightly seedy. " > Then Liz said: "I believe it takes the kids and their escorts about 20 minutes to walk to Kings Cross Station on September 1, so Hackney and Stoke Newington are unlikely... More probable locations would be Kings Cross itself, Kentish Town, Angel/Islington, Camden Town." "12 Grimmauld Place has always had a 'posh gone to seed' element for me, especially considering the attitudes and snobbery of the Blacks, more inner-north-west than north-east." Now Astrofiammante's thoughts: I like your arguments for north west London - other possibilities would be Holborn, which has got some very posh bits but also some 'formerly posh bits' gone to seed, and which is close to Kings Cross. Also Clerkenwell or Farringdon? I always thought that St Mungo's was probably around Tottenham Court Road/Oxford Circus, because of the dilapidated department store screening it and the feeling that it is in a shopping district, but one that is not too smart. As for the Ministry of Magic, I suppose we must assume that's close to Whitehall, since it is described as right in the centre of London - also handy for the Charing Cross Road which might explain how Fudge got to Harry so quickly at the start of PoA. The slightly dilapidated neighbourhood housing the visitors' entrance could conceivably be off towards Covent Garden, or even south of the river. Astrofiammante www.deadjournal.com/users/astrofiammante From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 17:14:51 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:14:51 -0000 Subject: Kreacher (was Re: Ch Disc: Ch 4 No. Twelve, Grimmauld Place) In-Reply-To: <20031030122927.58212.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83866 > Shirley wrote: > < Buckbeak's wounds, which would keep Sirius out of the way when Harry > floo-powdered into the kitchen fireplace to check on him (Sirius). > And, I > think that Kreacher's hands are bandaged because he punished himself > after injuring Buckbeak...>> > > Granny responds: > I don't know. I'd imagined a completely different scenario. For one thing, the time element is problematic in Shirley's scenario. How would Kreacher have known that Harry was going to appear in the fire place? Then, when Harry did appear, would he have had time to go up, injure Buckbeak (a hippogriff isn't exactly a docile creature), iron his hands, then return to Harry?< Annemehr: The source for the information that Kreacher injured Buckbeak to keep Sirius out of the way is Dumbledore during the end-of-OoP chat, ch. 37, take it for what you will: "Kreacher injured Buckbeak the hippogriff yesterday, and at the moment when you made your appearance in the fire, Sirius was upstairs trying to tend to him." (p. 831 Scholastic ed.) Another possible explanation for the bandaged hands is that Buckbeak managed to do a little injuring on his own. Shirley's version makes more sense, though, as long as Kreacher felt constrained by "the rules" not to harm any possession of his master's (does anyone think Sirius would have actually ordered him not to harm Buckbeak?). I don't think the timing is a problem at all. I think it is quite a safe assumption that Voldemort knew exactly when Harry had received the image of Sirius being tortured. Voldemort would then know that it was time to set things in motion: have Kreacher injure Buckbeak, send the DEs to the MoM to clear Harry's way, and whatever else may have needed to be done. It's also not unreasonable to think that Voldemort had set up some way of signalling Kreacher whenever he needed to communicate with him, now that Kreacher can sneak out of the house and apparate to the Malfoys' or wherever. I think Voldemort would indeed prepare for the possibility of Harry trying to check on Sirius. I think the injury to Buckbeak would have been fairly serious in order to keep Sirius occupied for a long time. Annemehr who's dying to know what became of Buckbeak and Kreacher From rredordead at aol.com Thu Oct 30 17:20:02 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:20:02 -0000 Subject: Nonsensical Note: Re: Sex please we're British! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83867 > > bboy_mn wrote: > > So, if a witch has an intimate fluid encounter with a wizard, and > > shortly afterwards inchants the spell 'accio semen', what are the > odds that, with a slightly erroneous vocal inflection, a bunch of sailors will come busting through the door? > > I do have a small point here, and that is contraceptive charms and > > potions seem well within reason and well within likelihood to me. > > snip contraceptive spells seem positively bland by comparison. > Ginger wrote: > Bad Steve, bad joke. Go to your room. Ok, I laughed. > Snip I don't see why they wouldn't have a Chastity Charm snip for girls. I'm sure there's a (painless) temporary version of a vasectomy, possibly even a permanent one. Or an egg freezing charm. Patrificus ova? Nah. Now me: This thread is making me laugh out loud. Just to an FYI (or perhaps I should say boring but true) in the old days before contraception as we know it, women would go to the local 'witch' to obtain herbal remedies for unwanted pregnancies. Herbs which induce abortions and prevent pregnancy have been used widely since Egyptian times, and probably as long as humans have understood the uses of plants. Since the students at Hogwarts study Herbology I'm sure all sexually active witches know exactly which remedies can be used and when. Of course I doubt this is actually taught in class, but you never know. Perhaps the girls have special after class lectures on menstruation, pregnancy and how to get rid of that unwanted little squib. Mandy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Oct 30 17:37:09 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:37:09 +0000 Subject: A loose end or two... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83868 I've been sharing some thoughts off-site with hermionegallo and kneazle, mostly about that diary. They haven't been posting lately, the effects of storm damage, I understand. We agree that Lucius had set up Ginny as his target from the start, but all three of us wonder where he got it from in the first place. Has he a collection of Voldy memorabilia, a shrine to his mentor and hero? Does he snog Voldy's gown, as Kreacher does with his masters trousers? Maybe he gives conducted tours to the other DEs - "....and here's a photograph of that time when we did for the Prewitts. I particularly like the way the green of the AK complements the red of the Dark Lord's eyes." A question I hadn't considered, but they had, is did Malfoy know what the diary was capable of and did he know that Riddle could be resurrected through it? Hmm. Suggestions welcome. A suspicion I raised concerned Lockhart. Was he in on the dastardly Malfoy plan? Or was he a fortuitous bonus for Lucius? An unexpected but very useful crowd in Flourish and Blotts to offer cover, or a planned diversion, picking on Harry, keeping him the centre of attention, causing Molly to leave Ginny more or less to her own devices, loaded down with school supplies, a rabbit in the headlights of Malfoy's malice? Lockhart is not nice. A liar, vain, a fraud; prime Voldy meat. But he is very, very good at one thing. Obliviate! He's used it often enough in his fraudulent accounts of his exploits. And he's willing to use it to get out of trouble - even two twelve year old schoolboys who stood between him and his skin and reputation. The reasons he didn't succeed boil down to a broken wand and the fact that spells don't work as well when using another wizards wand. So he's gradually recovering. His victims aren't though - they seem to have pretty permanent memory loss. Who does that remind me of? Permanent memory loss, a convenient way to cover up misdeeds. Has Lockhart been naughty in ways we haven't been told about? Bad wizard! Kneasy From o_caipora at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 17:54:51 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:54:51 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83869 How often is the Queen used in British fiction? It's fairly common in American fiction to use the President. He's someone who's automatically "important", and as such he attracts bestseller authors the same way Death attracts teenage writers. But I'm not sure the Queen is used in the same way. P.G. Wodehouse has endless earls and baronets, and Saki makes liberal use of Duchesses. But never the Queen. There was a film set in a British board school some thirty years ago, "If...", where the climactic scene is a birthday assembly for the very ancient school. Someone at the assembly addresses someone else - who IIRC was not even visible - as "Highness", which would be a member of the royal family, but not the queen who would be "Majesty". I'm not referring to historical fiction, which may follow different rules. Though IIRC in Daphne du Maurier's "The King's General" the King never appears directly. American fiction or movies set in England doesn't count, either. So - three possibilities: 1) When Rowling mentions the Prime Minister but not the Queen, she's merely following British literary convention. 2) The above is not true, and failure to mention the Queen tells us something about the Wizarding World. 3) She's waiting to be knighted, after which Her Majesty gets a cameo scene - or perhaps bashes Voldemort over the head with her sceptre, vanquishing him single-handedly, if Rowling is ennobled. Can anyone shed some light on this? - Caipora Lola said: > That would make the Queen the official Head of State of the > British wizarding community. > However, functionally, the Minister of Magic must be the Head of > State because the Queen can hardly have an in-depth knowledge about > wizarding affairs, can she? From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Oct 30 18:47:08 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:47:08 -0000 Subject: Calling Fawkes Re: Dumbledore's Actions in MOM Duel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83870 > Jen: > > The effects of the spell on the shield made me wonder if > this was Dumbledore's emergency call to Fawkes. Fawkes shows up > shortly after this incident. No, DD couldn't have known LV would > conjure a shield, thus making the sound, but it's an interesting > thought. > > dc: > (Or is the chilling sound a warning for LV, because the spell caused > no *visible* damage but must have affected him in some way? Nah. > Then it would sound like phoenix song to Harry! Speaking of phoenix, > I think Fawkes just knows when to come, in time to save Dumbledore, > much as Dumbledore appeared just in time to save Harry. Nice > choreography all around.) Jen: Yes, good point dc. After reading the scene and thinking about "calling Fawkes" I decided that would be entirely unecessary. Fawkes and DD seem to have an unusal simpatico and no call would be necessary to bring him to Dumbledore's side (or Fawkes to Harry's side, it seems, if COS is evidence and perhaps hearing the Phoenix song in GOF). dc: > Dumbledore's powerful spell causes no visible damage to Voldemort's > shield. But Harry finds the sound oddly chilling. Uh oh. Little > hairs up on the back of the neck. Because the gonglike note > announces that DD cannot damage LV? Because Harry will be told, > before the night is out, that he is the one who has to resolve this > battle? And that little piece of information is going to reverberate > for Harry, impact him and everyone around him? Jen: Interesting. As you said, *Harry* finds the gong-like sound "oddly chilling". That still indicates some kind of warning to me, which I initially thought of as the warning call to Fawkes but it could be something else. You said later DD is trying to protect Harry in this duel more than trying to harm Voldemort, and I think the sound is directed at Voldemort for this reason. It obviously means *something* to Voldemort because after the sound he makes the point, "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?" (OOTP, chap. 36,p. 814). Does LV say that just because the spell isn't AK, or do LV and Dumbledore both know what spell DD sent his way and what the implications are? While I like your idea on a thematic level about Dumbledore sending a message to Harry (if I understand what you're saying correctly), it just seems like this duel is very much between Dumbledore and LV, as the two (current)leaders of this battle and long-time enemies. LV is making his intentions very clear, that he wishes to destroy DD because there's nothing worse than death. And DD is just as clearly telling Voldemort--'you're greatest weakness is your belief that death is the worst outcome'. dc: > I still think DD was using spells to actively trying to stop > Voldemort, to protect Harry, who was so close and so vulnerable. > Yet ultimately, he couldn't protect Harry; only Harry's emotions > threw Voldemort from him. Harry saved himself, even if > unintentionally. So does the gong signal the passing of the Dark- > Lord-Defeater torch from Dumbledore to Harry? That's kind of > nifty. But think about poor Harry, watching this amazing duel of > serious magical powers, and thinking "I can't do that..." Jen: I do think it would be nifty if Harry later thinks back to the gong-like sound and realizes that was the pivotal moment when he realized 'no one, not even Dumbledore, can fight this battle for me'. (And maybe that's why you're saying it was "chilling" to Harry, even if on a subconcious level--I didn't catch that earlier). Dumbledore does try to alleviate some of Harry's fears about not being a match for LV in the dueling area, when he tells him about the room in the Dept. of Mysteries and the "power held within that room that you possess in great quantities and which Voldemort has not at all." (OOTP, chap. 37, p. 844) I like to think of that as foreshadowing that Harry will not be forced to duel with LV, per se, but he will have to do something even more difficult in the end. Like DD is saying, 'you see how great my powers are, but even I do not possess the ability to end Voldemort's reign--you possess something far greater'. Ooh, shivers thinking about that. > - dc, who has written too much about a single note but finds it so > interesting. Jen, who can be equally mesmerized by the smallest details, too.... From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 18:59:51 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:59:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) (was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4) Message-ID: <20031030185951.41827.qmail@web40012.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83871 30Oct03 Laura wrote: "...Also, I'm not sure all of the tensions among the Order members can be called petty. Yeah, Molly is way out of line throughout OoP...." Paula now: Laura, why do you say Molly is way out of line? A little nervous, yes, but out of line? I just have a gut feeling that Molly will end up revealing something BIG in 6. Remember how she told Harry to be quiet in the hallway at Grimmauld Place so he wouldn't wake anything up; and how she went after those Doxies with such a vengence with the aid of Gildroy's book, not to mention her neurosis about an impending death in the family (Boggerts)? All these little incidents give me a feeling that Molly knows something or suspects something that we'll discover to be critical in the future. ~Paula "Griff" Gaon "...Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Oct 30 19:19:09 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:19:09 -0000 Subject: Riddle's information re: magical heritage-Dumbledore's role (was Riddle's birth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Lots of things are possible. Voldemort seems to be much more > inquisitive and persistent than Harry. *He* probably wanted to find > out what he could about *his* family, and maybe there was a nice, > sympathetic Head of Slytherin House right there to start him off, tell > him all about Marvolo et al. > > And maybe a Transfiguration Teacher named Albus Dumbledore saw what > happens when you give too much heavy information to a young, > impressionable boy and vowed never to make *that* mistake, should the > situation ever arise again. Jen: Oooh, annemehr you know I can't leave a good Dumbledore thought alone ;). Alshain said later in this thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83854 "Riddle is the one who actively (and prematurely) searches for knowledge about his background (and how ironic would it be, to find out that he might have been mistaken about his father), Harry accepts it passively, letting it come to him. In lots of folk tales we get the lesson that searching for knowledge you aren't mature enough to accept has bad consequences (the wife of Bluebeard, for example)." Both your thought and Alshain's tie together nicely I think, and may very well contribute to the way Dumbledore is so guarded about the info he gives Harry (and also what DD allows others to divulge as we find out in OOTP): "You haven't forgotten what Dumbledore said, I suppose?...The bit about not telling Harry more than he *needs to know*," said Mrs. Weasley. (OOTP, hardcover US, chap. 5, p. 88) So what if DD finds out too late, say after the Riddles are murdered (since he reads the Muggle newspapers), that Tom had misinformation or perhaps had the right information but was too young to process it? He would definitely see the parallels in Harry's life. In fact, I would even go so far as to say DD chooses the Dursleys to protect Harry, not only for the blood protection, but to keep Harry from learning of his "people" prematurely with possible devastating consequences. Dumbledore tells Harry in OOTP: "you arrived at Hogwarts, neither as happy nor as nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered prince, but as *normal a boy as I could have hoped for under the circumstances*. Thus far my plan was working well." *emphaisis mine (OOTP, US, chap. 37, p. 837). This indicates to me it was important for Harry not only to be alive, which Dumbledore states is his main priority earlier in this chapter, but that Harry also be *normal*, i.e, with no awareness of his strange beginnings, his ability to turn LV to vapor, knowing LV murdered his parents, no information Harry could get from the gossiping channels of the WW at a young and vulnerable age. He doesn't want another Tom Riddle on his hands, in other words, a bitter, manipulative, revenge-seeking adolescent who makes his choices from blind rage more than anything else. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Oct 30 11:25:49 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:25:49 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83873 Lola: ( I was laura, but there's another laura...) > > The Minister of Magic is a member of the Prime Minister's cabinet, so > the Prime Minister is his superior. This has has been indicated on a > number of occasions, most recently when the Death Eaters escaped > Azkaban, and Fudge told the Prime Minister something about 'the > dangerous nature'(not exact quote, sorry). As I understand it, Any > law passed in the UK has to be signed by the Queen, so the Prime > Minister is inferior to the Queen because he himself can't pass a > law. That would make the Queen the official Head of State of the > British wizarding community. > However, functionally, the Minister of Magic must be the Head of > State because the Queen can hardly have an in-depth knowledge about > wizarding affairs, can she? Geoff: Interesting; I hadn't thought along those lines. I had been wondering why there seemed to be only one Minister in the Wizarding World, having tended to think of the WW as an independent entity in paraller with the Muggle world. Referring to the UK, the Prime Minister does not pass laws. Parliament does. New laws will be introduced as a bill which will be debated at First Reading. It will then go to Committee stage where it is niggled over and any required modifications introduced before Second Reading. If it is then passed by the House of Commons, it goes to the House of Lords (our upper chamber). Once (or if) it has cleared these hurdles, it will be presented to HM for her signature. Constitutionally, she could refuse to sign but that would be unprecedented as the monarch is considered to be outside politics. His or her real function (re-quoting Bagehot) is to be consulted, to encourage and to warn. I wonder what would happen if some of Fudge's laws landed on her table for signature? :-) Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Oct 30 11:34:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:34:09 -0000 Subject: : RE: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joanna Barra" wrote: Joanna: > Yes...I can't remember what HP bk it was in, but do you all remember Percy > reading 'Prefects who gain power? I believe he was in league with the dark > side, so to speak, for a very long time and maybe before he received > Scabbers. But I think Ron had said that Scabbers was very old when Percy had > him, so I am wondering, who gave him to Percy? Geoff: "...in a tiny junk shop.... they found Percy, deeply immersed in a small and deeply boring book called Prefects Who Gained Power. 'A study of Hogwarts Prefects and their later careers,' Ron read aloud off the back cover. 'That /sounds/ fascinating....' 'Go away', Percy snapped. 'Course, he's very ambitious, Percy, he's got it all planned out.... he wants to be Minister of Magic.." Ron told Harry and Hermione in an undertone as they left Percy to it." (COS Chapter 4 UK edition p.48) Seer Ron in action? Hmmm. Interesting to speculate. Another can of worms for the crew. Geoff From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 30 19:37:36 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:37:36 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83875 > Now Entropy: > What I find suspicious is that Lupin is the one who holds Harry back > after Sirius falls through the veil, and tells Harry with certainty > that Sirius is dead. How does he know this? How could someone who is > not employed by the Dept. of Mysteries, let alone not in the Ministry > at all, know what that veil is and what it means? It seems unlikely > that he would know unless, perhaps, he was told what his reaction > should be beforehand. sachmet96 I just reread the passage of Sirius' death because the first time I read it I thought when Sirius fell through the veil he was already dead, killed by the jet of light that hit him on the chest. And I still think so, he was already dead imo with an expression of shock, fear and surprise (OotP UK version 710/711) frozen on his face. I don't think the surprise and fear is because of the veil, he was hit squarely on the chest so he couldn't see that the veil was right behind him and he would fall right through it. He likely knew the veil was somewhere close behind but he couldn't have known that he would fall through it. So I think these emotions are there because of the curse that hit and killed him. If this is so then it also would make sense for Lupin to say that Harry can do nothing, because he knows Sirius was already dead. And when Sirius was still alive we also don't know how common the knowledge of the veil is, maybe Lupin has read about it somewhere. I still think Sirius is dead and won't come back in any form. I think his death was a teaching experience for Harry but also for the readers esp. children. To bring him back would be kind of cheating (and cruel) as in real life people don't come back and it would ruin the whole experience. I would be really disappointed if JKR brought him back. Just my opinion though. From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Oct 30 19:42:16 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:42:16 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > I wonder what would happen if some of Fudge's laws landed on her > table for signature? :-) Ali:- I've thought of a way around this issue. Parliament can pass what are called "enabling Acts" - such as the Health and Safety At Work Act, 1974. These Acts allow for more "laws" to be passed as long as they fall within the parameters of the original Act, without further recourse to Parliament. Thus, there might be an ancient law that would allow all further wizarding legislation to be brought into force without further recourse to Parliament - or the Queen. Then, the MoM could use their own rules and procedures to make law. These laws would still be British Law. It is hard to see how the original enabling act would allow for wizards to legalise Muggle-hunting; perhaps that is why that proposed piece of legislation never made it to the statute books. Ali From grannybat at hotmail.com Thu Oct 30 20:02:16 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:02:16 -0000 Subject: Godric's Sword (only a tiny bit of sex) In-Reply-To: <1067367495.26622.162.camel@localhost,> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83877 Leon has no patience for my philosophical ponderings: > I think the explanation can be far more obvious. > > Godric lived during a time when swords were commonplace. We can > infer that he was a wealthy person, of "noble" blood of one sort or > another (muggle or wizard designations). *Not* to own a sword would > have in some way been anachronistic for such a person at such a > time. I beg to differ. Male nobility carrying swords may have been the norm among Muggles, but we have no indication that the same norm applied to Magicals. Harry mentions no other sword residing in Dumbledore's office or hanging above the numerous fireplaces in Hogwarts; no sword appears among the drawing room artifacts of the Blacks, whose medieval roots are pointed out by Sirius and the tapestry of the family tree; Lucius Malfoy does not swagger through the halls with an ancestral rapier girding his hips. (If anyone would flaunt such an ostentatious symbol of his aristocratic status, Lucius would.) Even Lockhart, whose livelihood rests on his (bogus) reputation as a hero, never unsheathes his sword for the DADA students to admire. (I know what you're thiiiiiinkiiiiing....) So often with JKR the truth lies not in what she says, but in what she doesn't say. > We don't even know that the sword is inherently magical. It slices, > it dices, it makes basilisk fries. I never said it had to be magical, dear. I was asking what function the sword served or is likely to serve within the parameters of the overarching story, beyond that of symbolism. It didn't exhibit any magical powers in CoS that I could see. But I do like your image of basilisk julienne. > We don't know what the other founders left behind (besides Sal. Who > left an even-more-phallic rememberance. This ties in with my first point: If Salazar Slytherin had left a sword to be wielded by his heir, we would have heard about it by now. Diary!Riddle takes a great deal of pleasure in telling Harry of his (Riddle's) hereditary connection to Salazar, and savoring the similarities between himself and Harry. If Riddle had claimed Salazar's sword (or even if he hadn't found it yet, but knew of its existence) he would have bragged about that, too. Particularly after Harry pulls Godric's ruby and silver out of the sorting hat--Riddle had already gloated that Dumbledore was able to send only a "songbird" and an old hat to Harry's aid. If Riddle had possessed a blade equivalent to Gryffindor's, he would have used it to counter Harry. The phallic symbolism I'll discuss in a separate reply to Message 83372, Olivier's fascinating essay on Jungian interpretation of CoS. I'm certain that post will take much more time and many rewrites. Grannybat From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Oct 30 19:48:24 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:48:24 -0000 Subject: Tommy Riddle's birth (was:Re: No Sex, Please, We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > Arya: > Um, let's not forget the fact that, well, duh--he has the same name > as his father!!! > > "My name is Tom Riddle...hmmm, I should look up any other people > (muggles) with the name Riddle to see if I might have some > family....oh, look here! It says there is a Tom Riddle in Little > Hangleton...hmmm... Geoff: Prior to the change in legislation in (I think) the mid-80s, it wasn't as easy as that. I have indicated in a previous post that my wife was adopted and we tried to find her biological mother about 1980. Usually, if a child remained in an orphanage or was adopted, a new birth certificate would be issued with any changed name and the original details remained unavailable. Initally, by chance my wife knew where she was born and her original name so we visited the area and found someone who had known the family but that didn't lead very far. Now that would be a first hurdle for TR. The UK may not be anywhere as big as, say, the US, but it can be devilishly tricky to trace an individual name. We were told that it was thought that the family had moved within the locality of North London so we waded through telephone directories and ringing people on the off-chance there might be a connection. In the end, we contacted the DHSS (Department of Health and Social Security) to see if any one of my wife's mother's name had an accounts record. We were told that if we sent a letter to the Department, they would forward it to the person concerned who might or might not choose to reply but in no circumstances would they release an individual's details directly to an outsider. In our case, the person concerned did choose to do to contact us in return. My point is that, even if Tom retained his given names, he couldn't just find a name at random at the drop of a hat. In my own area of West Somerset, the telephone directory covering about 50,000 people has 15 Riddles in it straight away.... I lean perhaps to the theory which one poster suggested that he used magic to find them. The fact that they were killed when he was at Hogwarts adds to this. Knowing his dark character, I suspect that once he /did/ know where they lived, he was off pronto to sort them out and get his revenge. Geoff From hermowninny719 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 20:18:52 2003 From: hermowninny719 at yahoo.com (hermowninny719) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:18:52 -0000 Subject: Wizarding dump? In-Reply-To: <3F9E848D.30703@subreality.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > Thren wrote: > > First, there's the danger that someone will see it. It could fall out of the bundle, someone could see it at any points along its journey to being shredded. It's *physical proof* that the WW exists. It's not just someone who sees a flying car, or a dragon, or people doing magic. It's something they can hold in their hands and show to people. VERY dangerous. All it would take is a trip down to the (Muggle) newspaper, and boom! international news. > > > > Now me: > Do you really think a bunch of muggles looking at the Prophet would believe it's really true? Aside from the moving photos, (and I presume if muggles were to look at the photos, they would be still) I tend to think the average Joe would believe it to be a spoof paper or a parody written just for entertainment. Kind-of like a comic book, where you can follow the daily news in a make-believe world. For example, when I walked in to my local Barnes & Noble and saw a copy of Quidditch Through the Ages, it never occurred to me that this was an actual school book for use in an actual school for a world I'd never heard of. I saw it as a humorous extension to a fantasy world. Perhaps there are even muggles who read the Prophet regularly--as a diversion to *real* life--much as we watch TV or read comic books. Even if it was "International News" I could only see it appearing in a tabloid type magazine-somewhat like the Quibbler or the National Enquirer. Where most rational people wouldn't believe it anyway. Just my two cents. Hermowninny From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 30 20:28:32 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:28:32 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83880 > Lola: ( I was laura, but there's another laura...) > > > > The Minister of Magic is a member of the Prime Minister's cabinet, > so > > the Prime Minister is his superior. This has has been indicated sachmet96 First, I am not British so I only have a basic idea about the UK government, but when it was said that Fudge informed the Muggle Prime Minister I kind of assumed that because it is explicitly stated that it is the Muggle Prime Minister there is also a 'Wizarding' Prime Minister, why else state the 'Muggle' if there was only one Prime Minister for the muggle and wizarding world? From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 20:43:11 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:43:11 -0000 Subject: A loose end or two... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83881 Kneasy said (snipped): Lockhart is not nice. A liar, vain, a fraud; prime Voldy meat. But he is very, very good at one thing. Obliviate! Has Lockhart been naughty in ways we haven't been told about? hg: Okay, so you've dragged me into the public, haven't you? I'll add this: Lockhart's skills could have *augmented* what the Lestranges did to the Longbottoms. Because I really think someone's behind their extended incapacity, and it's most likely Malfoy. So if we're going to connect dot Lockhart to dot Malfoy, why not go to dot Longbottom while we're at it? Duck, Kneasy! hg. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 21:19:22 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:19:22 -0000 Subject: Riddle's information re: magical heritage-Dumbledore's role (was Riddle's birth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" He [DD] > doesn't want another Tom Riddle on his hands, in other words, a > bitter, manipulative, revenge-seeking adolescent who makes his > choices from blind rage more than anything else. Laura: Well, he sure succeeded, didn't he? Harry doesn't have the manipulation thing down but the rest of it sounds unpleasantly familiar... From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 21:37:39 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:37:39 -0000 Subject: JKR's scary little plan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkittyhawk97" wrote: > I decided interviews are as valid as canon, so I went to read them and... well... I don't know. From interviews: Interviewer: "Why stop at seven books when you could make up Harry's whole life?" JKR: "I notice you're very confident that he's not going to die!" Interviewer: "I love the idea of Harry getting older, do you think you might be tempted to write books about Harry when he is working and has a family of his own?" JKR: "Hmmmmmm... yet another person who is convinced I'm not going to kill him off! Where you people get the idea I'm soft-hearted I don't know. I'm joking. Or am I?" Heh. I thought it was funny at first, but then I tried to put myself in her shoes to figure out what in the world she is thinking. Okay, so I imagine myself as an author who has absolutely no intention of killing my main character... so why evade all these questions if it's a simple yes or no question? (remainder snipped) Now AP: Maybe she's being coy because she is a very clever marketer. Now we are all just dying to read the 7th book to find out if she would REALLY be that cold-hearted -- another perfect setup for long lines at the bookstores, Wal-Marts, etc. on midnight of the date of release and record-setting pre-orders on Amazon.com. Look at the anticipation created by her hint that someone would die in OoP. Or maybe she's just sort of twisted -- but is taking it out on *us* by making us wait to find out! ;-) From augustinapeach at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 21:49:30 2003 From: augustinapeach at yahoo.com (augustinapeach) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:49:30 -0000 Subject: A thought about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: This may have been touched on in the past but a thought crossed my mind as I was reading the scene where the group leave the Whomping Willow after the goings-on in the Shrieking Shack and Lupin begins to transform as the moon comes out. > This would, of course, have affected the plot line of the book, but why didn't somebody pull out a wand and either use "Petrificus Totalus" or "Stupefy" on Lupin to stop him? OK, it would have ruined the next two books but it would seem to have been logical. Now AP: I've noticed that, too -- in crisis situations people seem to forget some of the simplest and most useful spells. I don't have my books with me, so I can't cite specific examples, but there have been times when I thought, "why doesn't Harry just use 'accio'?" It reminds me of the scene in PS/SS when Ron and Harry are trapped by the Devil's Snare and Harry tells Hermione to start a fire. She's been doing it through the whole book, but NOW she forgets and starts babbling about wood. Ron has to bring her to her senses by yelling, "Are you a witch or what?!" From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 22:00:39 2003 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:00:39 -0000 Subject: Droobles' Anagram (Yet Again) -- GOLD BRIBE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennygbrooks" wrote: > > Back to me again... I > still can't help thinking that the wrapper means something. > Was flipping around MuggleNet the other day, bored at work, when I noticed they had posted the anagram GOLD BRIBE BELOW ST. MUNGO'S for the DROOBLE'S BEST BLOWING GUM mystery. There were other speculations about "bridges" previously on these boards that didn't quite fit, but this one does. TK -- Tigerpatronus From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 22:07:53 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:07:53 -0000 Subject: A thought about POA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83886 Geoff Bannister wrote: This may have been touched on in the past but a thought crossed my mind as I was reading the scene where the group leave the Whomping Willow after the goings-on in the Shrieking Shack and Lupin begins to transform as the moon comes out. This would, of course, have affected the plot line of the book, but why didn't somebody pull out a wand and either use "Petrificus Totalus" or "Stupefy" on Lupin to stop him? OK, it would have ruined the next two books but it would seem to have been logical./END Augustina Peach added: I've noticed that, too -- in crisis situations people seem to forget some of the simplest and most useful spells. Tom: Although I agree that our heroes occasionally lose their wits and forget what may be the most obvious solutions to the problem at hand, I thought that it might be prudent to add another thought: defeating a werewolf could be a very difficult business. For instance, Lockhart claimed to have used the "immensely complex Homorphus Charm" (CoS, US paperback, Ch.10, 162) to overcome a werewolf. I know that Lockhart's a fraud, but he's not *entirely* so. We know that he actually stole his stories from others and then Obliviated them after the fact. So it's likely that the Wagga Wagga Werewolf was truly defeated with this charm. I'm also reminded of Hermione's explanation for the spells that bounced off of Hagrid in OoP. She said that it had something to do with the "thick skin" that giants have. I believe she even likened the giants to trolls in that regard. And of course, we know that both the Blast-Ended Skrewts and Acromantulas have extraordinarily tough hides, capable of deflecting curses and so forth. So, although I completely agree that the Trio lost its cool when it caught the terrifying spectacle of Lupin's transformation, and therefore forget to use any of the spells at its disposal - if, indeed, "Stupefy" was within their repertoire at the time; I think it might not have even been introduced until GoF - I think that even if Harry *had* remembered to use Petrificus Totalus or Stupefy, it might have been completely ineffective anyways. -Tom From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Oct 30 22:09:46 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:09:46 -0000 Subject: A loose end or two... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83887 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > Kneasy said (snipped): > > Lockhart is not nice. A liar, vain, a fraud; prime Voldy meat. But he > is very, very good at one thing. Obliviate! Has Lockhart been > naughty in ways we haven't been told about? > > > hg: > Okay, so you've dragged me into the public, haven't you? I'll add > this: Lockhart's skills could have *augmented* what the Lestranges > did to the Longbottoms. Because I really think someone's behind > their extended incapacity, and it's most likely Malfoy. So if we're > going to connect dot Lockhart to dot Malfoy, why not go to dot > Longbottom while we're at it? Jen: Are you all saying that Lockhart, via Lucius's orders, is continuing to keep the Longbottoms in their incapacitated state now? Thus Lockhart would only be pretending to have severe memory loss, keeping himself in St. Mungos and extraordinarily close to the Longbottoms. Or are you proposing that Lockhart, prior to Voldemort's fall, was a DE (or at least working with Lucius) and caused the Longbottoms to be incapacitated in the first place, along with the Lestanges? Or are both hypotheses being considered, for that matter :)? Either way, we're back to that issue of what the Longbottoms know-- what causes so many people to want them alive, yet incapacitated? Because there's no doubt Bellatrix would have killed them without a second thought, if that's what she wanted to do in the first place. And could Lockhart's books possibly give us a clue to something the Longbottoms experienced and he took credit for before "Oblivate"! I don't know, but I'm sure going to review this in canon.... From rayheuer3 at aol.com Thu Oct 30 22:24:05 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:24:05 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizards and the Queen Message-ID: <1e7.126e25c1.2cd2e985@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83888 sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk writes: First, I am not British so I only have a basic idea about the UK government, but when it was said that Fudge informed the Muggle Prime Minister I kind of assumed that because it is explicitly stated that it is the Muggle Prime Minister there is also a 'Wizarding' Prime Minister, why else state the 'Muggle' if there was only one Prime Minister for the muggle and wizarding world? As mentioned earlier, I read this comment differently. There really can't be two "Prime" anythings, so the phrase "Muggle Prime Minister" says to me that the WW believes that the PM and other Ministers dictate life in the Muggle world, not theirs. The existance of the Minister of Magic, indeed, the entire Ministry, is unknown to the Muggle world. I'm assuming that the WW recognizes the person and power of the Sovereign (ancient instutions tend to respect each other, however grudgingly), and thus, it is the Minister of Magic alone, and not the Prime Minister, who deleivers the Queen's will to them. Now, this does open the question of Parliament. Does the "muggle" parliament make laws for the wizarding community? I doubt it. Nor do I imagine that the MoM works by dictate of the Minister. Thus, there must be a representative legislature of the WW, perhaps the Wizengamot or something like it. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 22:37:26 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:37:26 -0000 Subject: A loose end or two... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83889 Jen Reese wrote: Are you all saying that Lockhart, via Lucius's orders, is continuing > to keep the Longbottoms in their incapacitated state now? Thus > Lockhart would only be pretending to have severe memory loss, > keeping himself in St. Mungos and extraordinarily close to the > Longbottoms. hg: No, but I like it, and my money is on Kneasy liking it even more. Jen: Or are you proposing that Lockhart, prior to Voldemort's fall, was a DE (or at least working with Lucius) and caused the Longbottoms to be incapacitated in the first place, along with the Lestanges? Or are both hypotheses being considered, for that matter :)? hg: This is more along the lines of what Kneasy was getting at. And it made me think that in that event, the likelihood of him being involved in the Longbottoms' state was great. I totally agree that the Longbottoms are being kept alive but incapacitated for some reason -- and I don't think there's yet anything in canon to tell us what that is. hg. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 30 22:43:33 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:43:33 -0000 Subject: Accio Prophecy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83890 I just started to wonder about this....Why did the Death Munchers not "Disarm" Harry to get the Prophecy sphere from him? Why did they only attempt to Summon it (Accio) which allowed Harry to merely hold on to the ball to counter the Summoning Charm? It is apparent from CoS (no book here, sorry) that you can "Disarm" any possible "thing" or possible "weapon" from a person with "Expelliarmus". Evidence? When the singing Love-O-Gram thing comes from Ginny to Harry in the hallway nad his bag rips, spilling his books out, including Riddle's diary, and Draco picks up the Diary. Harry, gathering his things and then seeing Draco with the Diary commands him to "Give it here, Malfoy!" which of course only makes him want to check it out. Harry then cries "Expelliarmus!" and disarms Malfoy, sending the Diary flying back towards Harry who then catches it. It appears to me that this is the same thing that the Death Eaters wanted to happen with that prophecy. Sure, summoning may allow for greater control of the item in question, but still, I don't think we've seen a good counter to the Disarming Charm yet. Certainly, it would have forced Harry to *let go* of the ball and would have worked much better than Summoning. So, the question is--why didn't they use it??? Arya (Who might as well just give up all pretense of trying to appear like she's working while at work and just bring in her set of HP books, set up an Imperturbable Charm, and tell her coworkers not to bug her about worthless work issues ever again for fear of being hexed.) From grannybat at hotmail.com Thu Oct 30 22:56:09 2003 From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:56:09 -0000 Subject: Sex, Drugs, and Heartache (was We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83891 Caipora is feeling punchy: > Grannybat84112 wrote: > > > (No, I don't think the prefect's bath > > counts. That room struck me as a unisex facility.) > > "Harry, sorry, but it's prefects only." > > Well, if you say it's unisex, Grannybat, who am I to disagree with > you? No, no, that's not what I meant. But you knew that. Cedric refers to the room as "the prefects' bath," not "the boy prefects' bath" or "the male prefects' bath." (My placement of the apostrophe may be off.) And (I think; I don't have GoF at my fingertips) Harry doesn't even notice the toilet, so he doesn't tell us if it's a regular commode or a standing urinal. The availability of so many kinds of bubble bath and water effects makes me think this room is the only one of its kind, meant to please a wide variety of male and female tastes. (Oh, get your mind out of the gutter.) Maybe in Britain perfumed baths are more common for young men. In my part of the Western U.S., Real Men(tm) don't use bubble bath. > Jeff suggested on contraception: > > > Ye old English methods, the lunar cycle, or even a spell. > > > > Of course, if the full moon were to fall just prior to her > menstrual cycle, the lycanthropic transformation might simply pass > for mild PMS. Mental note: It's not ovulation, it's my lycanthropy. Back to Grannybat: > > Regarding the larger question?what's to keep them from > > employing the Magical form of The Pill? > > Real witches would long ago have worked out some simple spell to > subtly interfere with the process: strengthen the egg wall, > befuddle the sperm, or something. What after all is more typical of > a hedge wizard than a "love potion"? If a contraceptive potion is > not sister to a love potion, it's a least a cousin. Now that you bring it up, JKR hasn't addressed the issue of "hedge witches." I'm wondering if this will later prove to be a typical occupation for Squibs who choose to operate in the Muggle world. Arabella Figg, maybe, before she took up guarding Harry? > We had best avoid imagining Fred and George testing a new > contraceptive spell Yes, let's avoid that. > > The Pill is a product of organic chemistry. > > Potion making is essentially organic chemistry. > > Muggle technology has advanced so much over the last hundred years > that it's hard to imagine wizards keeping up. ... I can imagine the Magical world keeping up just fine?IF they had chosen to interact more with Muggles. The choice they made all those centuries ago to separate from the wider human society is, I believe, coming back to haunt them. It's not just their own technology that's lagging behind; a walk thru the HP4GU archives demonstrates just how often readers have noticed that Magical society is struggling because it functions on outmoded, ultimately unworkable attitudes and institutions. The lack of social evolution is one of the underlying reasons for the coming war. > In medicine and psychiatry it's easier to believe that wizards can > get results Muggles cannot. I'm not so sure about that. Certain purely physical injuries?broken bones, deep cuts, burns?can be healed faster and more conveniently by magic, but wounds caused by magic seem to affect the body far more seriously and take much more time to cure, even with access to Magical medicine. (How many WEEKS did Hermione need to lose her polyjuiced cat form?) As for better psychiatry?the Department of Mysteries may be studying the human brain, but we've seen almost nothing of mental health resources in the Magical world. Mind-altering potions and spells exist, but so far they've been employed only for personal, ultimately destructive purposes (Lockhart's memory charms, the Imperius Curse, love potions). If the Healer who looks after the Long-Term Residents Ward (Miriam Strout?) is typical of Magical mental health workers, then the Longbottoms have no hope for recovery. Semi-functional minds need more than indulgent mothering. (Yes, I am willing to admit that SILK GOWNS or some other form of chicanery might be operating at St. Mungo's. That still doesn't excuse the absence of better care.) JKR hasn't explicitly said so, but Magicals seem to rely on the "stiff upper lip" approach to feelings. Personal pain is either acted out on others (Voldemort, Pettigrew) or shunted aside under the rationale of serving the greater good-?until that pain becomes so great that it forces itself out (Harry, Molly). Denial is so widespread that parents don't even tell their own children just how badly their families were affected during the First Vold War. This is a dangerously ill society. Sickened in heart, sickened in soul. Just like so many of the main characters. Would Tom Riddle have turned into Voldemort if he'd had access to weekly therapy sessions? Can you really picture Snape spilling his guts to a shrink? "But Severus, don't you see that all this rage against Potter is simply your repressed desire to kill the father?" The Magical World has no organized way to deal with heartache. Caipora posed elsewhere, but it's more relevant here: > >I don't suppose you see additional evidence for the "potency" of >Gryffindor's sword in Potters use of it - to give Slytherin's >Basilisk a prick in the mouth? My, my. Is it the close proximity to Halloween that's affecting everyone, or are we all just feeling raunchy and giggly today? Grannybat From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Oct 30 22:59:28 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:59:28 -0000 Subject: A loose end or two... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83892 "hermionegallo" wrote: > I totally agree that the Longbottoms are being kept alive but > incapacitated for some reason -- and I don't think there's yet > anything in canon to tell us what that is. I've always wondered whether the supposition that the LB's were tortured for info on YKW was based on mere postulations and inferences (By those in Canon, not just us). I think DD said that the LB's could give little info about the attack (I don't think he said "nothing at all") which is how the four sent to Azkaban seemed to have been fingered for the attack or at least how the motive for the attack was deduced. I've been wondering if it wasn't something like one of the LBs somehow communicating, "They wanted to know where he was" or something that made everyone believe "he" was Volde. Rather, I wonder if it was Harry who they were trying to find. Hmmm, you know, we still haven't heard a peep about who Harry's Godmother could be and the only Witch that we've really heard of in that age/social group as MWPP and Lily is perhpas the Longbottoms (guessing because of Neville's age being close to Harry and their closeness of being in the Order together) is Neville's Mum. Could she have been the Godmother? Maybe, after Volde falls and litthe Harry Potter is whisked away to Dursleyville, the other remaining *Loyal* (deranged) servants seek out the Brat Who Killed their Lord to mete revenge. Where do they do? To where they think an orphan would go--next of kin--nix that, he really has none they know of unless they do the muggle phone book. How about God Parents? Ok, Sirius--check, he's in Azkaban and they know he's not raising little Harrykins there. How about the Godmother? Maybe they went there to seek Harry to get revenge for their master's fall or--maybe!! Oh oh! I know Bellatrix has said she always *knew*(--as did Neville's Gran!!) that Volde would come back-----soooooo----maybe they somehow (prophecy of their own?) knew Volde could be raised back to power from the one who defeated him once?!? Hence the determination to find the Boy Who Lived and start looking with the Godmother! Oi, how awful for Harry to ever know this--talk about a guilt complex--he'd feel like Neville's parents conditions are his fault :-( Arya (Ok, enough thinking as I type) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 30 23:06:19 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:06:19 -0000 Subject: Where Percy got Scabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > > ...edited out previous posts.... > > Aussie" > > Why Arthur or Percy Weasley? ... Don't you mean, why Ron Weasly as a > future Hogwoarts student that will be Harry's classmate? > bboy_mn: Not sure what you are asking here, but I'll take a stab at it anyway. At that point in time, I can't see Peter looking that far ahead. Given the fact that Sirius figured out Peter betrayed the Potter, Voldemort was lost and consequently the DE's would like to get their hands on Peter, and the fact that as far as the wizard world was now concerned his was dead, I think Peter had higher priorities than thinking about getting close to Harry a decade down the road. I will agree that if Peter was thinking about Harry, the Weasleys would have made the ideal choice. I think of the other boys Harry's age, Neville is too rich and his gran to restrictive, Seamus lives to far away and has no connection to the Ministry, and Dean is a muggle-born. I don't know enough about the girl of Harry's age to speculate about them, but It think it safe to assume a little girl would not be receptive to a wild rat as a pet. So, this is actually one more very good incentive for Peter to choose the Weasleys. Advantages to the Weasleys: -They live in the country -Their father works for Magical Law Enforcement -They have kids -and they have kids at or near Harry's age -They are poor -other? > Aussie: > > Peter could return to human form at times to influence Percy or Ron > as they slept with mind altering spells similar to Kingsley to > Marietta in OotP27. They would wake thinking the idea was theirs to > accept the Rat or pass him onto the youngest brother, bypassing the > twins. > bboy_mn: I don't think I believe it, BUT this is a very very popular theory. Certainly, if I we an animagus rat in hiding, I would have to return to human form every now and then just to keep from going crazy. That would be another advantage of living in the country. Peter could sneak out to the woods at night and tranform back to human form without fear of detection. Also, Wormtail is right there in the house with boys he know will eventually associate with Harry, wands are handy, and he can be a bit devious, but on the other hand, it doesn't seem like Wormtail is someone who take a lot of initiative or make grand far reaching plans. He seems to me to be more the type who plays it safe and waits around to be told what to do. This waiting around, taking no initiative is one of that failings of all toadies including Voldemort's Death Toadies. The consequences for making a mistake are so grave, that it is better to do exactly what Voldemort says and not stray so much as a hairs breadth from the plan for fear of having to face his rath. If he creates a screwed up plan then logically he can't blame you, although we all know that Voldemort as a self-appointed god, has no imperitive to be logical, reasonable, or fair. > How much older than Ron was Percy? At what age do you think Percy > could have been allowed a rat? ~aussie~ bboy_mn: Based on my calculations when Harry starts school (first year), the twins are 3rd year, and Percy is 5th year. Harry was about one and a half when Wormtail faked his own death, so let's round that off to two. Therefore Harry and Ron are about 2, the twins are about 4, and Percy is about 6 years old. The gap in ability to function independantly between age 4 and age 6 is pretty big, so I can see the twins needing a lot of supervising that Percy didn't need. Also, kids who grow up on a farm have a great deal of freedom; freedom of movement and independance that kids living in city would never have. My point in saying that is to re-enforce that Percy would be the likely candidate for Wormtail to get close to. Also, the twins would be as likely to use a stray rat for bludge practice as they would keep it for a pet. Percy being the older and more responsible one, who be most likely to take care of the rat. Conclusion, your idea that Ron and Harry are the same age only re-enforces my belief that Wormtail saw the Weasleys as the ideal family to take him in. Just a thought. bboy_mn From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 00:02:10 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Hebby Elf) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 00:02:10 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Halloween Fun in OTChatter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83894 Please forgive this brief interruption of our canon dicussion, but we wanted to let you know that . . . You are cordially invited to the Halloween Fun going on now at OTChatter! Threaten us not with tricks - you can find our treats in our Halloween Mixer (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU- OTChatter/message/19207). But that's not all - we hope the spirits will move you to enter our Halloween Costume Contest (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/19186). Here's to Halloween Happenings at Harry Potter for Grownups! Hope to see you there. Sincerely, OWLTREAT (Our Wizarding Leaders: Terrifying Rampantly Eerie Admin Team) From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Oct 31 00:48:33 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 00:48:33 -0000 Subject: Dementor Dance & Reel/Safeguardin' Our Harry (filks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83895 Hear are the 12th and 13th song from Azkaboon the PoA musical-in- progress (4 songs to go) Both are dedicated to Kirstini (and her Spark of inspiration) Dementor Dance & Reel (loosely, PoA Chap. 10) To the tune of Sword Dance and Reel from Lerner & Loewe's Brigadoon Hear a MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat228.html As HARRY arrives in Hogwarts, he sees a terrifying spectacle ? a squadron of Dementors patrolling the streets. The Chief Dementor leads the squad, playing on the bagpipes as they other dementors engage in their ritual fugitive-hunting dance. CHORUS OF DEMENTORS Mentors! Search till there's not a single stone unturned! Search till the fugitive is black and burned! Do not spare his soul >From our grim patrol! Search until Black has won the kiss he's earned! (The dementors leap in the air, uttering wild cry and war whoops) Search! Search! Quit this joking and get Sirius! Quit this joking and get Sirius! Search! Catch the heir of Voldemort! Suck! Kiss the heir of Voldemort! Search! Black shall once more be our Prisoner of Azkaban! No one shall escape our Prison of Azkaban! Search! Search ye dementors! Search! Search ye dementors Search ye, `mentors! (To escape the dementors, HARRY ducks into the Three Broomsticks, and hides under a table, without at first realizing that the table is occupied by FUDGE, MADAM ROSMERTA, McGONAGALL, FLITWICK & HAGRID, discussing the fugitive Sirius Black.) Safeguarding Our Harry (PoA, Chap. 10) To the tune of Waiting for my Dearie from Lerner & Loewe's Brigadoon FUDGE: Sirius wants to make awful reprisals Against young Harry who stopped the Dark Lord. So it's essential his friends and allies all Approach this threat with our minds in accord This is my thought, we should not be a-tellin' And fill the lad with such anxiety For though the story is very compellin' He should not know Black slew his family ALL (except HARRY): Not one word we'll say. How they were betrayed. FUDGE Safegaurdin' our Harry, confidentially Let him know nothing of this history: How those two were rarely ever seen apart Young James and Black were quite the work of art. McGONAGALL: With their pranks and their jokes and young James' old cloak They were brothers through and through And on James' wedding day his best man seemed OK But he served You-Know-Who. ALL: When Lil did child carry they asked Black to be Godfather to their Harry .. HARRY (shocked) ? Me! FUDGE: Then the Potters were to go underground Dumble warned them they must hide For unknown loathsome traitors were skulkin' around Working for the other side FLITWICK The Fidelius should have kept them safe If Black kept his solemn oath. HAGRID: But then off he went to Voldy and betrayed them both When Voldy struck Harry his force was laid low And Black was forced his true colors to show McGONAGALL: Pete Pettigrew, unwary, faced Black in a duel Then thirteeen lives were lost so swift and cruel FUDGE He was caught by my staff as he laughed and he laughed So a life sentence we gave Fleeing from Azkaban for his sinister plan To bring Vold from the grave. ALL (except HARRY): We'll fend off the fury of Sirius B. But who'll serve as his jury? HARRY (angered & determined): Me! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 01:05:12 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 01:05:12 -0000 Subject: FILK: (The Legend of) The Queen of the Quill Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83896 This is to the tune of Miss Baltimore Crabs from Hairspray. I couldn't find a midi, although I looked long and hard! Dedicated to Caius Marcius THE SCENE: Rita, Hermione and Luna are sitting at a table in the Three Broomsticks. Harry joins them. Rita is looking particularly bedraggled. Luna is looking spacey. Hermione is looking somewhat smug. (The Legend of) The Queen of the Quill HERMIONE (spoken) Well, I brought Harry so if you want to work again, you can interview him now. RITA (spoken) Haven't you already done enough? RITA (singing) Oh my god How far I fell She was only fourteen But she put me through Hell. Ah, but it was me who was mean When I was "The Queen of the Quill". I spied on your secrets Through faceted eyes Till that damn Shirley Temple Saw through my disquise. Always first on the scene Was I, as "The Queen of the Quill". That sorry half-giant Might still have the vapors But the public's my client And that's what sold papers! Your secret was mine The Skeeter byline was to snoop. Get the scoop! Hot on the trail When I had the buzz If you won't tell the tale I'd find out who does! My antennae were keen When I was "The Queen of the Quill". HERMIONE Proceed... HARRY Get started, you hack. RITA The front page has a place? LUNA Well, the Crumpled Snorkack .. RITA ... I can't stand the disgrace! It's simply obscene To forget I'm "The Queen of the Quill". HARRY I'm ready to name names ... RITA ..."Death Eaters Among Us" A headline with promise! A scandal! A fungus! I'd holler "Keen!" If I weren't "The Queen of the Quill"! Although I've got wings I'm not angel or cherub But everyone sings To this muckraking scarab Your guts you must spill To the Quick Quoting Quill Don't you see? HERMIONE It's fine with me! HARRY Can we get started? ... RITA ... To get your story told, I'd better be paid bags and bushels of gold! (All look at Luna) LUNA (spoken) Oh, Daddy never pays for articles. It's more of an honor just to be published. RITA (spoken) Not in The Quibbler it isn't! And may I be frank? (Singing) First impressions are tough When I saw you, I knew it If your looks weren't enough Your last answer just blew it! You must meet my price, it's Acknowledgement of .. HERMIONE ... You're a bug without license? RITA (resolutely) You got me there, kid. And the times, they are lean. ALL We've/They've just underbid "The Queen of the ... " RITA ...Quill!" LUNA (spoken) Daddy will be pleased. RITA (spoken) Um... I need a drink. HERMIONE (spoken) Gee, Harry, that went well. (Madam Rosmerta comes to the table.) MADAM ROSMERTA Hello Ma'am, may I freshen your drink? RITA You better come clean When serving "The Queen of the " ... HERMIONE, LUNA and HARRY ...Quill"! Quill, Quill!!! Fade out as Rita and Harry begin their interview. ~ Constance Vigilance From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Oct 31 01:15:22 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 01:15:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's behavior was Re: Riddle's information re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" > > He [DD] > > doesn't want another Tom Riddle on his hands, in other words, a > > bitter, manipulative, revenge-seeking adolescent who makes his > > choices from blind rage more than anything else. > > Laura: > > Well, he sure succeeded, didn't he? Harry doesn't have the > manipulation thing down but the rest of it sounds unpleasantly > familiar... It's Harry at the beginning of OOP, when he doesn't understand what's going on. But when he's finally told, he's not bitter at the whole world, only Snape. He's not plotting to kill the Dursleys or turn a monster loose on Hogwarts. I think that part of Dumbledore's plan succeeded, though not as well as Dumbledore might have hoped. And really, suppose that Dumbledore had spilled all the beans at the beginning of OOP. Voldemort would have learned all he needed to know about the Prophecy, and also, perhaps, been able to breach Fideliius through the link with Harry's mind. Then he would have attacked the Order. And who's to say that Sirius would have survived? Pippin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 01:37:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 01:37:52 -0000 Subject: Accio Prophecy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > ...Why did the Death Munchers not "Disarm" Harry to get the Prophecy > sphere from him? Why did they only attempt to Summon it (Accio) > which allowed Harry to merely hold on to the ball to counter the > Summoning Charm? > > ...edited... > > It appears to me that this is the same thing that the Death Eaters > wanted to happen with that prophecy. Sure, summoning may allow for > greater control of the item in question, but still, I don't think > we've seen a good counter to the Disarming Charm yet. Certainly, it > would have forced Harry to *let go* of the ball and would have > worked much better than Summoning. So, the question is--why didn't > they use it??? > > Arya bboy_mn: I have no reason to believe that the 'Protego' Shield Charm would not have worked just as well against the Disarming Charm as it would against a Summoning Charm. Also, although some wizard seem to have more control over their Disarming Charms than others, it's still pretty dicey when the object basically just flies up into the air. The Summoning Charm on the other hand brings the object directly to the summoner. That's far more reliable than an attempt at disarming. When Bellatrix Lestrange tries to stun Harry after he says things about Voldemort, Malfoy 'deflects' the Stunning Curse. While it's not stated, one could assume that he used a shield charm, and that if it worked against a Stunner, it would have been effective against a Disarming Charm. If Bellatrix had successfully completed her Summoning Charm, I believe the force of the charm would have pulled it form Harry's hands. Remember that Fred and George's broom smashed through a very solid door when they summoned them. So in terms of removing the prophecy from Harry's possession, I see no advantage in Disarming over Summoning. However, by your own admission, the Summoning Charm gives the summoner a great deal more control. Lastly, these are dynamic conditions, under conditions of stress like this a person is not likely to think of the great ideas that come to them after the fact, when the stress is removed. I can see several circumstances during the battle in the Dept. of Mysteries where in the cool light of afterthought, I can think of much better tactics and spells. Example, after cursing a DE, why didn't they take the DE's wands and break them? Answer, in the heat of battle they didn't think about it. The same applies to the DE's recovering the prophecy sphere. I'm sure their highest priority and therefore point of stress was to not break it before they got it into Voldemort's hands. Again this reflects the flaw of working for a brutal dictator, it stifles and sense of creative thinking and initiative. Just a thought. bboy_mn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 02:03:08 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 02:03:08 -0000 Subject: Riddle's information re: magical heritage-Dumbledore's role (was Riddle's birth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83899 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" > > He [DD] > > doesn't want another Tom Riddle on his hands, in other words, a > > bitter, manipulative, revenge-seeking adolescent who makes his > > choices from blind rage more than anything else. > > Laura: > > Well, he sure succeeded, didn't he? Harry doesn't have the > manipulation thing down but the rest of it sounds unpleasantly > familiar... Jen: Aaackk! I didn't mean to descibe Harry, but I see the similarities (mostly you're joking, right? Right?!) But here's the fundamental difference between Harry and Riddle: "I don't care!" Harry yelled at them [portraits}, snatching up a lunascope and throwing it into the fireplace. "I've had enough, I've seen enough, I want out, I want it to end, I don't care anymore--" (OOTP, US hardcover, chap. 37, p. 824) Yes, immense pain, bitter rage. Thoughts of revenge-seeking (think Snape here). But acting on these feelings? Definitely not. Which leads us back to the choice philosophy. Whether you believe "it is our choices that show who we truly are, far more than our abilites" (COS, US, chap. 18, p. 333) or "you fail to recognize that it matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be" (GOF, US, chap. 36, p. 708), either one elucidates the primary difference between Riddle and Harry. Eerily similar beginnings; drastically different outcomes. From o_caipora at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 02:34:50 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 02:34:50 -0000 Subject: Sex, Drugs, and Heartache (was We're British) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83900 Grannybat overflowed: > The availability of so many kinds of bubble bath and water > effects makes me think this room is the only one of its kind, [...] > Maybe in Britain perfumed baths are more common for young men. > In my part of the Western U.S., Real Men(tm) don't use bubble bath. In your part perhaps, but not F. Scott Fitzgerald's: "... a warm rain began to fall, apparently from overhead, but really, so John discovered after a moment, from a fountain arrangement near by. The water turned to a pale rose color and jets of liquid soap spurted into it from four miniature walrus heads at the corners of the bath. In a moment a dozen little paddle-wheels, fixed to the sides, had churned the mixture into a radiant rainbow of pink foam which enveloped him softly with its delicious lightness, and burst in shining, rosy bubbles here and there about him." - from _The Diamond as Big as the Ritz_ The story is set in Montana, which may not be your part of the West. Worth noting that the ch?teau - Fitzgerald prefers the French to plain "castle" - was raised by almost magical wealth, and concealed from the outside world, though not from airplane pilots. Limitless money isn't quite magic. Though it has its charms. The story can be found online at http://www.sc.edu/fitzgerald/diamond/diamond.html There are differences from Hogwarts: the tutor with the Italian name teaches language rather than divination; the transport from the train station to the castle is by fancy automobile rather than horseless carriage; the enslaved domestic staff usually wears clothes; and the potions have but one effect. Still, it may be a source for Rowling. Grannycat said: > Certain purely physical injuries?broken bones, deep cuts, > burns?can be healed faster and more conveniently by > magic, but wounds caused by magic seem to affect the body far more > seriously and take much more time to cure, even with access to > Magical medicine. (How many WEEKS did Hermione need to lose her > polyjuiced cat form?) Note that the magical injury to Dudley's behind was quickly cured by Muggle medicine. Presumably a wave of a wand could have dealth with that, though. > Mind-altering potions and spells > exist, but so far they've been employed only for personal, > ultimately destructive purposes (Lockhart's memory charms, > the Imperius Curse, love potions). Grannybat has brought up something odd about the magic. Some seems clearly beneficial such as the elixir vitae and the Mirror of Erised, but either Rowling or Dumbledore explain to us why they are not as neat as they appear. Many others are simply counters to other magic. The Patronus is great if you're being attacted by Dementors, but absent them they're similar to lawn ornaments in utility. Granted, Fred and George's tricks seem worth a trip to their novelty shop. But nearly all of the magic described is rather like the services of the Ankh-Morpork Assasin's Guild: something you purchase for someone else. I said: > > In medicine and psychiatry it's easier to believe that > > wizards can get results Muggles cannot. Grannybat gave a series of examples of maladjusted denizens of the WW, and a tour of St. Mungo's that highlighted the ways in which it was more comfortable than but no more medically advanced than Bedlam, and concluded: > The Magical World has no organized way to deal with heartache. Grannybat wins this one by a knockout. Certainly she's persuaded me. Coming back to Gryffindor's sword, it may be the only sword we're told about, but there's no shortage of suits of armor. IIRC there's one in the corridor where the Room of Requirement appears, and kids are always hiding behind them or stumbling into them in the dark. The HP lexicon lists quite a few sets, and even a "long gallery full of suits of armor." They could be hunting trophies, remembrances of Muggles who attacked wizards. Else they're wizard armor. Armor against magic is bizarre. Amulets, yes. Charms. Voldemort conjures up a magic shield. But not armor. The existence of many sets of conventional armor is either proof that wizards use conventional weapons, or that they do the equivalent of collecting scalps. Or that their decorating sense (or Rowling's)is medieval, and they ape Muggle architecture just as the Hogwarts Express apes a steam- engine. - Caipora From helen at odegard.com Fri Oct 31 05:20:21 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:20:21 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Droobles' Anagram (Yet Again) -- GOLD BRIBE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c39f6e$af0b5400$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 83901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pennygbrooks" wrote: > > Back to me again... I > still can't help thinking that the wrapper means something. > Was flipping around MuggleNet the other day, bored at work, when I noticed they had posted the anagram GOLD BRIBE BELOW ST. MUNGO'S for the DROOBLE'S BEST BLOWING GUM mystery. There were other speculations about "bridges" previously on these boards that didn't quite fit, but this one does. TK - Tigerpatronus *falls on floor dead* I knew there had to be something to that! Although, I was imagining Neville pasting the wrappers on his wall and finding a hidden message in them. Wow. Too bad Mugglenet is currently down. -- Helen From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 31 08:12:57 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:12:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Only Living Relative... REVISITED In-Reply-To: <15e.270b5f0d.2cd1c8b8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031031081257.81220.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83902 happydogue at aol.com wrote: I missed something. Who is Mark? U_P_D Mark is Mark Evans, who HP was talking to DD about prior to the dementor attack in the OOtP Udder Pendagon Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 08:41:19 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:41:19 -0000 Subject: Filk: Voldy's Back in Town Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83903 Voldy's Back in Town to the tune of Mack the Knife sung by Bobby Darrin Dedicated to CMC, whose website has been a boon to many a filker. Scene: The graveyard. Voldy has summoned the Death Eaters and has requested that Wormtail announce his rebirth. As the Death Eaters appear, Wormtail waves his wand and mutters "Analgesia", a handy little spell for the temporary relief of minor aches and pains due to headache, muscular ache, minor pain of arthritis, toothache, backache, the common cold, menstrual cramps,and recently severed limbs. Also temporarily reduces fever. Wormtail: Oh, the Dark Lord, has Death Eaters, With a Dark Mark on their arm. And when one cries out "Morsmordre!" It is cause for mass alarm. Ya know our leader, met his match, babe, In that Hollow, years ago. And that Potter who then defied him, Is his greatest, hated infernal foe. Now in the graveyard, huh, huh, ooo, on this night now, huh Lies a body in death clothes clad. Someone's sucking up bone fragmants So he has a piece of his dad. There's a servant, huh, huh, holdin' a dagger, doncha know Just a waitin' to drop on command. Oh the dagger- it's a good sharp blade, dear Right when he ways "when", old Master gets a hand. Now didja hear 'bout Harry Potter? He disappeared, babe After grabbing that old Triwizard Cup Now his blood is in the cauldron And our own dear Master's standing up. Now Lucius Malfoy, woah, yeah, Crabbe and Goyle, babe Ooh, Avery and Macnair, in a queue around. Oh, the hoods flock to the graveyard, Now that Voldy's back in town. I said Lucius Malfoy, yeah, Crabbe and Goyle, babe Crucio to Avery, and all those around. Oh, the queue forms in the graveyard. Now that Voldy's back in town. Look out old Voldy is back! Ginger, with a special thanks to the makers of Motrin Lines you'll never read in the HP series: "Wormtail," Voldemort said with great exasperation, "When I said 'give me a hand', I meant you were to clap." From mail at chartfield.net Thu Oct 30 21:34:19 2003 From: mail at chartfield.net (queen_astrofiammante) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:34:19 -0000 Subject: Godric's Sword (no sex please, we're Weasleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83904 Grannybat wrote: > I beg to differ. Male nobility carrying swords may have been the norm among Muggles, but we have no indication that the same norm applied to Magicals. Harry mentions no other sword residing in Dumbledore's office or hanging above the numerous fireplaces in Hogwarts; no sword appears among the drawing room artifacts of the Blacks... Now Astrofiammante writes: What do you make of the numerous suits of armour that are around Hogwarts? Isn't it possible they might include swords? Armour's definitely designed to defend against sword thrusts (and projectiles like arrows, and thrusting weapons like pikes or jousting lances). Why would there be armour in the wizarding world if weapons of comparable technology weren't common? That begs the question of whether the Hogwarts suits of armour are wizarding objects. I suppose it's possible they are Muggle artefacts brought in to give the place a bit of atmosphere then enchanted to do things like sing Christmas carols ("Sorry, Mr Dumbledore sir, but your suits of armour are part of the standard inventory in your mediaeval castle, like. More than our jobs are worth to cart them off. Would like help you out, sir, but my hands are tied...") And if the latter is true, will Arthur Weasley be along to round them up and take them off to his shed? What would Molly make of that when they started trying to give a hand with the housework or borrowing the children's brooms to play Quidditch...? Um... there was a serious point in there somewhere... Yes, That's right. Possible sighting of swords in Harry Potter novels other than Godric Gryffindor's. Hope that helps. Astrofiammante From belijako at online.no Fri Oct 31 00:45:24 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 00:45:24 -0000 Subject: Droobles' Anagram (Yet Again) -- GOLD BRIBE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83905 > wrote: > > > > Back to me again... I > still can't help thinking that the > wrapper means something. > TK - Tigerpatronus wrote: > Was flipping around MuggleNet the other day, bored at work, when I > noticed they had posted the anagram GOLD BRIBE BELOW ST. MUNGO'S for > the DROOBLE'S BEST BLOWING GUM mystery. There were other speculations > about "bridges" previously on these boards that didn't quite fit, but > this one does. Me: I agree with pennygbrooks; I can't help thinking the wrapper means something. I really don't believe in all these anagrams all over the place though. As far as I know, we only know of one anagram in the HP books; that of Tom Marvolo Riddle/I Am Lord Voldemort. I just don't believe Rowling litters her books with hidden anagrams and intricate patterns in the text on every other page as "clues". There certainly are clues, but in a different way (I think). People looking for anagrams everywhere have too much time on their hands .-) -The clues being in the text and the story for everyone to see: Like Neville pocketing the wrapper, not throwing it away; the fact that his mother has been giving him so many of them over the years he can paper his whole bedroom with them by now... Of course, it could only be Rowling's way of telling us just how mad Neville's mother is. Or it could be Neville's mother trying to get through to Neville in her own limited way, trying to tell him something important. Match this with Neville's interest in Herbology and his new pet plant (which might prove to be more useful than Trevor the toad). I can very well see Neville discovering some cure for his parents, giving them their minds back... I hope :-) Berit From aldhelm at earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 02:29:32 2003 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 02:29:32 -0000 Subject: further confirmation that Hogwarts is in Scotland Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83906 My apologies if this has been pointed out before; I've done a pretty thorough search and there still seems to be the faintest, lingering doubt about this in the Fantastic Posts sections on Geography and Hogwarts. I've just (finally) acquired the Schoolbooks, and I note that in FBAWTFT, p. 2 (US ed.), at the end of the entry for Acromantula, the statement "Rumours that a colony of Acromantula has been established in Scotland are unconfirmed" has been annotated in a familiar hand, "confirmed by Harry Potter and Ron Weasley." Carin From mev532 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 03:36:58 2003 From: mev532 at yahoo.com (Mev532) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 03:36:58 -0000 Subject: Weasley twins [very interesting idea] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Freeman, Louise Margaret" wrote: > I am new to the list so I don't know the extent to which this has been > discussed previously, but I thought I'd add my two cents regarding the > Weasley children.After reading OotP, I'm speculating that the Weasley twins > are not true twins, but some sort of single entity magically split in two. > The > constant togetherness and the fact that their own mother can't distinguish > between > them is one thing, but they even appear together dead in her > boggart-induced vision. > in OotP, when Ron is made a prefect, Mrs. Weasley exclaims "...I don't > believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A prefect! That's everyone in the > family!" to which George replies, "What are Fred and I, next-door > neighbors?" It's hard to believe *Mrs. Weasley* would make a statement like > > that without there being something to it. And I've learned to take Wealsey > boy jokes seriously. > Louise When I was re-reading OoTP I noticed a line that made me remember your post, Louise, about the Weasley Twins. I think it is a very interesting idea that they are really some sort of magical entity. You give some good evidence in your post and I now have a couple more pieces for your theory. First is that Mrs. Weasley was quite willing to consider Harry family so would be just as open to adopting the twins if they wearn't her her son, or were products of some magical splitting etc. But the real piece of evidence for your theory that I found is a quote in chapter six of OoTP on pages 107 and 108 of American Scholastic Press edition. Kreacher walks in and is insulting them under his breath and says "'what would she say to old Kreacher, oh the shame of it, Mudbloods and werewolves and traitors and thieves . . . Kreacher did not see Young Master' he said, turning around and bowing to fred. Still facing the carpet, he added, perfectly audibly 'Nasty little brat of a blood traitor it is' 'Sorry?' said George. 'Didn't catch that last bit.' 'Kreacher said nothing,' said the elf, with a second bow to George, adding in a clear undertone, 'and there's its twin, unnatural little beasts they are.'" Kreacher calls Hermione she or mudblood, but not IT. To Kreacher Fred, however, is an 'it' and the twins are called 'unnatural little beasts.' Why would Kreacher possibly not reguard the twins as even human? I find it hard to believe that house elves have never heard of twins before and considers all twins unnatural. He hates everyone in the house for being Mudbloods and traitors but he still uses human pro-nouns for them. I think this is great evidence and is making me lean very strongly toward your theory, Louise. Thanks! Big HP fan Dave From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 30 10:11:08 2003 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:11:08 -0000 Subject: Severus and the DADA post (why he won't get it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hypatia423" wrote: I doubt > Voldemort trusts him completely and perhaps not at all. I think he's > sitting back and watching Severus, biding his time, and plans to test > his loyalty at a later date. I think Voldemort at some point will > take a particular interest in Hogwarts. DD was fully aware of the implications of > the Harry-Voldemort scar connection and the subtle, underhanded way > Voldemort works. He is keeping Severus out of the DADA post for > possibly the same reasons he avoided eye contact with Harry and > insisted he learn Occlumency. > > Severus is vulnerable not only as spy for the Order, but by his very > nature;his inability to let go of old wounds, the degree that his > hardships in life have scarred him, and by his deep need for > recognition and respect. I believe he has the same "saving people > thing" that Harry has, and that he will finally achieve recognition > for what will be true heroism- at the cost of his life. ES Although I doubt the alcoholic!Snape very much, I definatley agree with these ideas . I think that DD is keeping Snape away from DADA because it will probably be more important in the battle against Voldy than potions, although I expect potions to also have a part. I also agree that Snape will heroically die, or at the very least heroically very nearly die evil_sushi From grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 10:34:35 2003 From: grannygoodwitch613 at yahoo.com (Granny Goodwitch) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 02:34:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kreacher (was Re: Ch Disc: Ch 4 No. Twelve, Grimmauld Place) Message-ID: <20031031103435.50039.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83909 31October03 Annemehr wrote: "Kreacher injured Buckbeak the hippogriff yesterday, and at the moment when you made your appearance in the fire, Sirius was upstairs trying to tend to him." (p. 831 Scholastic ed.) Granny responds: OK, the important point is that Kreacher injured BB the day before. Thank you, this settles the time element. should have looked this up. Annemehr: "I don't think the timing is a problem at all. I think it is quite a safe assumption that Voldemort knew exactly when Harry had received the image of Sirius being tortured. Voldemort would then know that it was time to set things in motion: have Kreacher injure Buckbeak, ... Granny: Yes, I agree here. Now that you've reminded me that the injury occured the day before. LV would definitely have known when Harry saw the image since Harry had not kept up the Occlumency studies and LV was well in his head. Annemehr: It's also not unreasonable to think that Voldemort had set up some way of signalling Kreacher whenever he needed to communicate with him, now that Kreacher can sneak out of the house ... I think Voldemort would indeed prepare for the possibility of Harry trying to check on Sirius. Granny: Of course. This is exactly what I'd intended when I wrote that Kreacher was serving 2 masters. If he's in service to the DE's, Voldemort would definitely be able to contact him. Annemehr: I think the injury to Buckbeak would have been fairly serious in order to keep Sirius occupied for a long time. Granny: Unfortunately, this has really been worring me too. And, if Sirius is really gone, what's JKR going to do with Buckbeak? Maybe he'll be Harry's new pet. Or, Harry, Hermione, and Ron will somehow manage to get him back to Hagrid to be nursed back to health where he could again be instrumental in fighting the DE's. Hey, this could be a good opening for Book 6! Granny Goodwitch --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 10:37:25 2003 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 02:37:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: What's Sirius There For? Message-ID: <20031031103725.82767.qmail@web40020.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 83910 31Oct03 Entrophy wrote: "What I find suspicious is that Lupin is the one who holds Harry back after Sirius falls through the veil, and tells Harry with certainty that Sirius is dead. How does he know this?... It seems unlikely that he would know unless, perhaps, he was told what his reaction should be beforehand." Paula now: Wow! how could I have missed this? It's so obvious now that you mention it. Entrophy, thanks so much for giving me yet another ray of hope! Paula "Griff" Gaon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Oct 31 11:52:08 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:52:08 -0000 Subject: A loose end or two... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" > wrote: > > Kneasy said (snipped): > > > > Lockhart is not nice. A liar, vain, a fraud; prime Voldy meat. But > he > > is very, very good at one thing. Obliviate! Has Lockhart been > > naughty in ways we haven't been told about? > > > > > > hg: > > Okay, so you've dragged me into the public, haven't you? I'll add > > this: Lockhart's skills could have *augmented* what the Lestranges > > did to the Longbottoms. Because I really think someone's behind > > their extended incapacity, and it's most likely Malfoy. So if > we're > > going to connect dot Lockhart to dot Malfoy, why not go to dot > > Longbottom while we're at it? > > > Jen: > > Are you all saying that Lockhart, via Lucius's orders, is continuing > to keep the Longbottoms in their incapacitated state now? Thus > Lockhart would only be pretending to have severe memory loss, > keeping himself in St. Mungos and extraordinarily close to the > Longbottoms. Or are you proposing that Lockhart, prior to > Voldemort's fall, was a DE (or at least working with Lucius) and > caused the Longbottoms to be incapacitated in the first place, along > with the Lestanges? Or are both hypotheses being considered, for > that matter :)? > I keep remembering that Voldy (in his first incarnation) supposedly had lots of supporters who, while not necessarily DEs, would have been willing to do the dirty for him. I'd speculate that most of these would be among the more dishonest and ambitious members of the WW. (Don't forget, it looked as if he would win, at least until Godrics Hollow.) So, who among those we've met would be favourites to be placed in this group? Lockhart and Bagman IMO. Maybe Fudge also. After Voldy apparently goes down the tubes after Godrics Hollow they would be concerned (another way of saying 'in a screaming panic'). Firstly they have to hide their participation in the Voldy for King Action Group, secondly they are open to blackmail by the DEs. ("Keep helping us or we'll shop you or worse.") It's puzzled me that darling Bella didn't terminate the Longbottoms. It's what she does best. How many survived an encounter with the DEs? Damn few so far as we know. But I can imagine a coward who can see which way the wind is blowing having second thoughts and liking the idea of being able to claim in his defence (if caught) that he had saved them from the vengeful Bella and her ever-ready AK. Lockhart seems to be *the* master of memory charms; he boasts about it. It certainly took an expert to reduce the Longbottoms to what they are now. And Lockhart's memory spells seem to be permanent. If it had been him that zapped the Longbottoms there would be no need to slip drugs into their pumpkin juice to keep them forgetful. No awkward testimonies - problem solved. Would I speculate that he is still working on them in St Mungo's? No. There's no way the Healers would allow a patient in his condition to have the use of a wand; plus he's in a locked ward most of the time. There's more to come on Lockhart, I think. Kneasy From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 11:58:30 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:58:30 -0000 Subject: A loose end or two... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83912 Kneasy wrote: Would I speculate that he is still working on them in St Mungo's? > No. There's no way the Healers would allow a patient in his condition to have the use of a wand; plus he's in a locked ward most of the time.> hg: Ah, but Kneasy, it's *supposed* to be locked -- go back and take a look at how carefully Healer Strout keeps tabs on old Gilderoy. He wanders off constantly, and the door to Ward 49 isn't locked at all. Not that I think he's faking it. Although I suppose he could be. For the right reasons?... hg. From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 31 12:08:31 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:08:31 -0000 Subject: Eloise Midgen Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83913 What do you mean who? Eloise Midgen, the girl with the worst spots at Hogwarts, who tried to hex them off but lost her nose instead, the girl that Ron Weasly wouldn't go to the ball with even if there was no one else. Is anyone else getting a Plain Jane feeling about future sub plots about our girl Eloise Midgen, especially those romantic sub plots surrounding Ron. Think about the scene when Eloise returns to Hogwarts in year 6 or 7 without a blemish on her face and suddenly Ron notices and not just Ron but every boy in Hogwarts. Harry notices her, Dean and Seamus notice her, Draco notices her and so do all the girls. Hermione suddenly stops thinking that she is really nice and gets very jelouse as the focus of Rons affections shift. It would come as quite a shock to Hermione to find out that this bothers her so. We get a nice little sub plot about judging on appearences and Ron gets another vent for his anger and jelousy when nice girl Eloise starts going out with nice guy Neville. Why? Because he was always nice to her of cource. Amy Not quite sure of the point of this post but needed to get it off her chest Neville for Eloise forever From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 31 13:12:15 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:12:15 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For?/ Mr Potter, he dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83914 Entropy wrote: >>What I find suspicious is that Lupin is the one who holds Harry back after Sirius falls through the veil, and tells Harry with certainty that Sirius is dead. How does he know this? How could someone who is not employed by the Dept. of Mysteries, let alone not in the Ministry at all, know what that veil is and what it means? It seems unlikely that he would know unless, perhaps, he was told what his reaction should be beforehand.>> Unless Remus, being a clever, bookish sort of chap, already knows that to go through the archway means death. The room *is* called the Death Chamber, and it's been speculated on this board that the amphitheatre-like layout of the stone steps indicates that it was previously used for public executions. Incidentally, on the archway, I found this nifty little quote that must have slipped my eyes on first to third OoP readings: "...Harry thought the archway had a kind of beauty about it, old though it was. The gently rippling veil intriguied him; he felt a very strong inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through it." OoP (Bloomsbury), p682. Who's "half in love with easeful death" now? I think that's foregrounding. In fact, I will stick my beloved shoe collection out on the line and say, with Dolores, "Potter will never be an Auror". I may have an idea for a longer post about death a-coming. Happy camper, aren't I? Kirstini, Apologising for Remus since message 82814. Killing off Harry at the end of the series forever. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 14:01:26 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:01:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's behavior was Re: Riddle's information re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83915 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" > > > > > He [DD]doesn't want another Tom Riddle on his hands, in other > words, a bitter, manipulative, revenge-seeking adolescent who makes his choices from blind rage more than anything else. > > > > Laura: > > > > Well, he sure succeeded, didn't he? Harry doesn't have the > > manipulation thing down but the rest of it sounds unpleasantly > > familiar... Pippin > It's Harry at the beginning of OOP, when he doesn't understand > what's going on. But when he's finally told, he's not bitter at the whole world, only Snape. He's not plotting to kill the Dursleys or turn a monster loose on Hogwarts. > > I think that part of Dumbledore's plan succeeded, though not as > well as Dumbledore might have hoped. And really, suppose that > Dumbledore had spilled all the beans at the beginning of OOP. > Voldemort would have learned all he needed to know about the > Prophecy, and also, perhaps, been able to breach Fideliius > through the link with Harry's mind. Then he would have attacked > the Order. And who's to say that Sirius would have survived? Laura responds: I agree that at the end of OoP, Harry seems to have reached a point of emotional equilibrium. He's been able to cry for Sirius and has begun to accept the finality of his death. He has experienced public acts of support from his friends and adult mentors, both on the train back from school and at the station. So when we meet him again in book 6 (sooner rather than later, we hope!) we may see a less angry Harry. But... If Harry's not still furious with DD in book 6, I'll be mightily surprised. I still think that the prophecy is a great big old red herring. I haven't yet read a compelling explanation for why LV had to be kept from knowing what it said. That's where I think DD made his big miscalculation. Abigail pointed out in a recent post that DD has his skills but managing people isn't among them, at least of late. DD assumed that telling Harry everything would cause him pain and anxiety. Well, it should have been pretty darned obvious that keeping him ignorant was doing that very effectively. DD knows Harry very well, and he should have known that Harry wasn't going to sit around passively with his hands folded in his lap. He was going to act on the information he had. And who was providing that information? None other than LV. And by Christmas everyone in the Order knew it. So even if DD's strategy made sense over the summer and into the beginning of the school yearm (which I don't think it did), the vision of Arthur in the MoM should have made DD realize that it wasn't working. No, I think that if DD had been honest with Harry from the time Harry arrived at Grimmauld Place, Harry would have been able to understand the situation, learn Occlumency and do everything he could to keep LV from manipulating him. Despite the poignancy of DD's explanation at the end of OoP, Harry is not likely to be persuaded by DD's stated motivation of potecting him, imo. Hary isn't bitter at the whole world at that point, but he's not too pleased with DD, and the more he thinks about what happened during the year, the less pleased he's likely to be. The idea that an adult keeps you in ignorance in order to protect you is not one that kids understand. You have to be an adult to see why it might make sense to act that way. Kids want to be respected and trusted, not infantilized and patronized. And if the grownups who care for them want them to grow into thinking, responsible adults, they'll understand that and act accordingly. If the kid is old enough to ask the question, s/he's old enough to hear (at least some of) the answer. > From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 16:35:24 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:35:24 -0000 Subject: Harry's behavior was Re: Riddle's information re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura wrote: > No, I think that if DD had been honest with Harry from the time > Harry arrived at Grimmauld Place, Harry would have been able to > understand the situation, learn Occlumency and do everything he > could to keep LV from manipulating him. Despite the poignancy of > DD's explanation at the end of OoP, Harry is not likely to be > persuaded by DD's stated motivation of potecting him, imo. Hary > isn't bitter at the whole world at that point, but he's not too > pleased with DD, and the more he thinks about what happened during > the year, the less pleased he's likely to be. Jen: Harry learns by experience, not by words; when he feels, he acts. Telling him everything sounds good in theory, but the outcome could have been disastrous as well. Dumbledore says: "You see...I believed it could not be long before Voldemort attempted to force his way into your mind, to manipulate and misdirect your thoughts....I feared the uses to which he would put you, the possibility he might try and possess you, Harry." (OOTP, US hardcover, chap. 37, pgs. 827-828). Harry wouldn't even have a chance to learn Occlumency properly before Voldemort would be accessing his mind for information about the Order, about the Prophecy, all without anyone from the MOM ever having to believe LV's back. What would Voldemort do that year, if not wasting time luring Harry to the Prophecy? Trying to use his connection with Harry to hunt him down and kill him, of course. Since "being vanquished" is LV's #1 fear, he would marshal all his resources to kill Harry first, then move on to the rest of the Order (or vice-versa, starting with the Order members to lure Harry to him). Harry (the dear) for all his wonderful qualities, has a shadow side of being rash, impulsive and reactive. And out of the fiery crucible of his experiences in OOTP, he's starting to integrate crucial aspects of himself. Our first hint is when Dobby tells him about the Room of Requirement: "For a moment Harry was tempted to go now; he was halfway out of his seat, intending to hurry upstairs for his Invisibility Cloak when, not for the first time, a voice very much like Hermione's whispered in his ear: *reckless*." (OOTP, chap. 18, p. 387). Harry will never have the luxury his father and Sirius had, to be a 'typical' teen full of arrogance, reckless abandon and boyhood pranks. His role will be one of life and death, and he *knows* that now, in a way no lecture, sermon or punishment could ever teach him. "It was his fault Sirius had died; it was all his fault. If he, Harry, has not been stupid enough to fall for Voldemort's trick...if he had only opened his mind to the possibility that Voldemort was, as Hermione had said, banking on Harry's *love of playing the hero*..." (OOTP, chap. 37, p. 821). Now, I think Harry is too hard on himself here, mistakes were made all around and Dumbledore is right to shoulder the blame. But the bottom line is, telling Harry "everything" at the beginning of the year would not have guaranteed anyone safety, especially Harry. >The idea that an adult keeps you in ignorance in order to protect >you is not one that kids understand. You have to be an adult to see >why it might make sense to act that way. Kids want to be respected >and trusted, not infantilized and patronized. And if the grownups >who care for them want them to grow into thinking, responsible >adults, they'll understand that and act accordingly. If the kid is >old enough to ask the question, s/he's old enough to hear (at least >some of) the answer. Jen: The process of growing up and gaining independence is all about "intimacy vs. induviduation" (if I remember my textbooks correctly!)--providing a secure base for an adolescent while allowing them more freedom of choice. And any adult who cares about an adolescent struggles to balance those two poles on a daily basis. Dumbledore, while not Harry's parent, is in the unenviable position of being the person *chosen* to hear the Prophecy (yes, the Prophecy could be a red herring as you mentioned, but Dumbledore appears to believe it's important and this belief underlies his relationship with Harry). Upon hearing the Prophecy, Dumbledore determines the Prophecy is real and sets out to play a very important role in Harry's life, a role that takes on added importance when Harry becomes an orphan. No one else save Dumbledore knows all the details about the Prophecy, the protections in place for Harry, Harry's role as the "One with the Power", basically the *only* one who knows about his entire life, like a parent would (or we think we do, anyway ). Molly loves Harry "like a son" and Sirius tries his best to make up for lost time, but neither have the history or knowledge that DD has about Harry. And none of these adults really know what's *best* when it comes to Harry--he's like no other person in the WW. Thus the fight in Grimmauld Place, where Molly wants to coddle him, Sirius wants to treat him like an adult (like James), and Dumbledore takes the middle ground, "need to know basis". It's a crap shoot, at best. Dunmbledore knows he failed Harry, "For I see now that what I have done, and not done, with regard to you, bears all the hallmarks of the failings of age." (OOTP, chap. 37, p. 826). This time I think Dumbledore is being too hard on himself, but as the adult it's right for him to take responsibility. Yes, he had to choose the lesser of two evils, but that doesn't change the outcome (and I don't think DD would argue with that premise!). And could the others have done better? Molly would want to keep Harry locked away with no information, for as long as possible. Sirius would happily turn into Padfoot and join Harry in all his adventures. I don't think Dumbledore acts totally unilaterally-- would Molly and Sirius really keep their opinions to themselves?!? Together, somehow they all balance each other out and try to do right by Harry. It truly does 'take a village' to raise Harry ;)! From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 31 16:45:01 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:45:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter in 80s movie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "michaelkgidlow" wrote: > As I was flipping through the channels yesterday, I came across a > grade B horror flick called "Troll". Anyway, the name > of the protagonist is Harry Potter! The boy even resembles J.K. > Rowling's creation somewhat. Incidentally, the boy's father is also > named Harry Potter. Even more bizarre is that this Harry Potter has > to battle magical creatures to save his sister. Is this all just a > coincidence, or did Rowling borrow some ideas from this movie for her > books? I do not doubt Rowling's creativity or imagination, but it's > not like her series is totally original. Essentially, her stories are > just a skillfully crafted combination of myths, legands, folklore, > and history. It's not as though she actually came up with > hippogriffs, or unicorns, or any of the other magical creatures that > inhabit Harry's world. What she has done is combine those elements to > make very entertaining and good stories. > Me now: Good gravy! Fellow Americans out there, take a look at this cast. SONNY BONO? Shelley Hack? Julia Louis-Dreyfus!?! What a riot! I cannot imagine JKR having ever even SEEN this thing, let alone deciding to use bits from it in her books. ...That "Lockhart" coincidence is interesting, though. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 17:05:54 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:05:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) (was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4) In-Reply-To: <20031030185951.41827.qmail@web40012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83918 > Laura wrote: > "...Also, I'm not sure all of the tensions among the Order members can be called petty. Yeah, Molly is way out of line throughout OoP...." > > Paula now: > > Laura, why do you say Molly is way out of line? Laura: When she made that crack to Sirius about his not being a responsible godfather because he spent 12 years in Azkaban, I lost my patience with her. She started out as a loving, if ditzy, mom type. And there's no doubt that she has been kind and welcoming to Harry. But as we've seen more of her, we see that she can't let her kids learn independence. She treats them all like they were 4 years old, including anyone she decides to treat as her kid, i.e., Harry and Hermione. (Remember in GoF when she started being snotty to Hermione because of the story Rita wrote about Harry, Hermione and Viktor? That was just wrong.) By the time we get to OoP, she has decided that she can ignore the wishes of Harry's parents and insert herself in loco parentis to Harry. Why? We have never seen Sirius give Harry bad or irresponsible advice up to the point of the conversation in the kitchen of GP. He was entirely reliable throughout GoF. (In fact, I can't remember Sirius ever giving Harry bad advice-he may have been ready to take risks himself but he didn't encourage Harry to do the same.) Where does she get off telling Sirius that he's an inadequate godfather? It's not like Harry went to Molly for advice at any point throughout the 5 books. So what makes her think she has any right to overrule his legal guardian? And she never gets a clue throughout the book. That's why I think she was out of line. Laura, trying to bring her blood pressure back to normal levels From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 18:22:30 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:22:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Evil! McGonagall Revisited (WAS: Who Will Betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <011a01c39ed5$106b5c80$9ddc5644@aoldsl.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83919 A forlorn shout echoes across Theory Bay, "Elkins! Elkins! Are you here? Elkins! They've forgotten EverSoEvil!McGonagall!" There is no sound in Theory Bay except the wind and the waves lapping the shoreline, and so this echo is able to carry out over the water, all the way to the deck of the Imperius!Arthur trimaran, where it is heard by Erin, who immediately leaps into a rowboat and heads for shore in hopes that the Elkins will show. As she paddles, she hears other snatches of echoes from the mysterious speaker. "Ever So Evil! McGonagall lives! Don't be fooled by surface evidence! Yes, I know the conventional wisdom is that McGonagall came into her own in OOP. McGonagall is shown to be a faithful member of the order *and* an effective fighter against Umbridge. But I'm not convinced. Not at all. "I go back to Elkins' brilliant analysis of ESE McGonagall. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39470 Elkins' brilliant analysis... Erin snorts quietly to herself. ALL of Elkins' analyses are brilliant, even when they're complete bull. That is just the sort of writer that Elkins is, and is also why Erin has all the main ones printed out and bound in a green folder which she takes with her nearly everywhere she goes. But the ESE!McGonagall theory is one with which Erin has never been able to completely agree. Oh it has its brillant points, of course...but there is one glaring flaw which Elkins dances brillantly around. Erin reaches the shore and climbs out, her red hair flashing in the sun. She looks up and down the shoreline and spots Debbie, who is standing on a scaffold near the souvenir stand. Erin giggles quietly. Doesn't Debbie know that particular scaffold was erected to execute discredited theories? Oh, the irony. Sadly, however, there is still no sign of Elkins. Debbie is still going on about McGonagall's actions in OoP, and Erin listens calmly until she hears a good point at which to break in. "Take, for example," Debbie is saying, "the scene where Umbridge sends Harry to McGonagall with the note informing her of the detentions. I don't know what's in those ginger biscuits but the entire scene is a bit suspicious to me. Look closely at McGonagall's reactions. What does McGonagall focus on? It's the fact that Harry told Umbridge that Voldemort had returned. That's what sets her into orbit. We don't learn till later, though, that Voldemort is devoting all his energies to finding other people to break into the DoM and steal the prophecy because Voldemort doesn't want to do anything that might provide evidence for the MoM while they are blithely ignoring his return. But Evil!McGonagall knows this." "Um, excuse me," Erin interrupts. "But we DO already know this! Perhaps not the part about finding people to break into the DOM, but certainly we know Voldemort doesn't want the MOM to realize he's back. Sirius tells Harry that in Ch. 5, for goodness sake. It's the very *first* thing he tells him after inviting him to ask questions. And by the time McGonagall tells Harry to be careful, everyone who believes in Voldy's return must surely know that he's trying to stay under cover, because otherwise he would have shown himself. It's really kind of self-evident. The kind of thing McGonagall doesn't have to be Ever So Evil in order to know. "And I really don't understand WHY you think Evil! McGonagall would even be upset about Harry telling Umbridge that Voldy is back. Because the Ministry isn't supposed to know? But surely you realize that this isn't new information for Umbridge. She already knows that this is what Harry believes! She's been sent to surpress him and Dumbledore. She's not going to hear "Voldy's back" from Harry and say "He is! Oh no! How can I join the resistance?!" "No; the reason McGonagall (Good, not Evil) wants Harry to "be careful" is that his acknowledgement of Voldemort's return opens him to reprisals from Umbridge. Just look at what has been done to Dumbledore for saying the exact same thing that Harry is saying. DD is voted out of the Chairmanship of the International Confederation of Wizards. He is demoted from Chief Warlock on the Wizengamot. He is accused of losing his grip. There's talk about taking away his Order of Merlin, First Class. "And look at what's been done to Harry so far. He's gotten detention, had his hand sliced open, and been thought crazy by most of the class. I don't think it's at all suspicious that Good! McGonagall tells him to "be very careful". In fact, if I were Evil! McGonagall, I'd do exactly the opposite. I'd tell him "The truth will set you free, Harry. Shout it from the rooftops!" and then stand back and laugh as he got expelled and carted off to the loony bin." "Well, moving on," says Debbie loudly. "McGonagall's actions are not *for* the Order; they are *against* Umbridge. What does she do for the Order, anyway? Name one thing she did other than to fight Umbridge." Erin opens her mouth, but before she can say anything, Debbie hastily admits: " Ok, when Harry-the-snake attacks Arthur Weasley, McGonagall *says* she believes Harry, and she does take him to Dumbledore. But when it's time to explain to Dumbledore? She says Harry had "a nightmare."" Erin shrugs. "Well, he did, didn't he? Besides, look at that scene again. "Professor Dumbledore, Potter has had a... well, a nightmare," said Professor McGonagall. "He says..." "See, McGonagall doesn't WANT to use that word, nightmare. She searches for something that will convey the importance of the vision a little better, just can't find it quickly enough and has to settle. "And as for other things she's done for the order, you pointed out one yourself a little earlier: "We next see McGonagall intercepting Harry in the hallway when he escapes History of Magic with the injured Hedwig in tow. What does McGonagall do there? She chastises Harry for using Hedwig to communicate with Sirius, because of the ministry spies at Hogwarts. Yes, indeed, McGonagall doesn't want the MoM getting their hands on information that Sirius is in London when they're using up so much energy hunting for him in Albania - instead of looking at the evidence of Voldemort's return." "I say again, the ministry already knows about Voldemort's return. Sirius-hunting or not, that's not going to change. McGonagall has done what she should her- protected the hiding place of the Order. "And how about the way she got blasted trying to help Hagrid? Name me one reason why an evil minion would do that," Erin finished happily. But Debbie is not yet vanquished: "I submit there's nothing in OOP that resolves the questions Elkins raised!" "McGonagall's part in the battle against Umbridge does not counterbalance her suspicious behavior in allowing the Dementor to soul-suck Barty Crouch, in refusing to celebrate the downfall of Voldemort and all the other evidence Elkins laid out in her first Evil!McGonagall post." "Yes," says Erin. "But the first time I read that post, something sruck me. A horrible flaw. I think Errolowl said it best at the time." errolowl: About the only niggle I get is: Why would Voldmort need Fake! Moody in the first place, since Evil! McGonagall was already in perfect position? Does he not know about Minerva then? Is she ever-so-loyal to Voldmort without actually letting him know she's on board? "The only answer I ever saw to this question was someone suggesting that McGonagall was super-duper undercover, or something of that nature. Well, Elkins' theory has her cooperating with Quirrell and Crouch Jr., so she can't have been all that secret. And I think at the time Voldemort was desperate enough to have used her no matter how super-duper secret-agent you make her out to be," says Erin. Debbie's voice is beginning to show signs of hoarseness. "What did you say? Do you think Ever-So-Evil McGonagall is far- fetched? Think ye perhaps that she's missed too many opportunities already to deliver Harry to Voldemort? How about this kinder and gentler alternative? "Maybe there was a relationship between McGonagall, but of a different kind: not the Dark Lord and his devoted servant, but a relationSHIP. Indeed, Elkins quotes Porphyria, who flatly suggested they were lovers without presenting one shred of evidence. But that doesn't mean there isn't any. We must rely on inferences, but I can find them. "Come to think of it, why don't we just package both theories together?" "Because," says Erin, "one is plausible and one is not. I like the idea of the relationSHIP. I'll buy that one. Also, if you like, I'll buy you a drink for your throat. And then maybe we can talk about Evil!Bill, the REAL traitor-in-waiting." > Debbie bows to Erin, steps down off the scaffold, and they both set off for the Royal George. Erin From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 18:59:12 2003 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:59:12 -0000 Subject: Droobles' Anagram (Yet Again) -- GOLD BRIBE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83920 > > TK - Tigerpatronus wrote: GOLD BRIBE BELOW ST. MUNGO'S --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > I really don't believe in all these anagrams all over the place > though. As far as I know, we only know of one anagram in the HP > books; that of Tom Marvolo Riddle/I Am Lord Voldemort. I just don't > believe Rowling litters her books with hidden anagrams and intricate > patterns in the text on every other page as "clues". I agree with you, Berit. I think the major importance of the wrappers was to illustrate just how cranially messed up the Longbottoms' are, and Neville's kind reaction, and HRH's reaction to both. The anagrams are fun, though, both as a possible actual clue but also as an insight into our own paranoid minds ("It was in capital letters! It sounds odd! It must *mean* something!). I'm also inclined to think that JKR won't do something as cheesy as an anagram twice. TK -- Tigerpatronus From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 19:16:14 2003 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:16:14 -0000 Subject: The Mimbleplant and the GOLD BRIBE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote: > Match this > with Neville's interest in Herbology and his new pet plant (which > might prove to be more useful than Trevor the toad). I can very well see Neville discovering some cure for his parents, giving them their > minds back... I hope :-) > Berit There was a discussion some time back on Neville's Mimbleplant, during the Great Summer Rush, I think. I did some net-research on Mimulus (which sounded too familiar to me), and here's a re-post (68503?): Wild, Wild Western Speculations: I thought I'd heard of a "Mimbulus" before, so I googled it, and there's a "Mimulus" which is native to the US. (I'm from Arizona. It's one of the few pretty flowers without razor-sharp spines. We have aggressive flora and fauna in the desert. We also have very few plants, so we learn quite a bit about each sp.) What's more, in the Great Basin area of the US, there's a variety of Mimulus called "Mimulus evanescens." Evans? Is that ever a coincidence? (Yes. Probably.) There's a South American version called Mimulus niaiandinus 'Andean Nymph'. Nymphs? Did Neville sneak a nymph into his bedroom? (New Note: please see the No Sex Please, We're British conversation.) Here's an odd one: A collary to Jungian archetypal theory is the "Bach Flower Essences" approach to therapy. From weird website: "Archetypal Flower Essences made from plants representing the archetypes....Taking these remedies reminds the soul of the original archetypes within..., so that we can regain our original balanced personality. Archetypal essences in this kit include The Pilgrim; The Warrior; the Magician; The Trickster; The Heroine Within; and The Orphan.... They are not prescribed according to a patient's emotional needs but to his weakest archetypes. If a client is anxious, for example, a Bach flower therapist might prescribe him *Mimulus* [emphasis added] to assist him to find access to his inner courage." Neville's got a courage plant! Look at those other Jungian Archetypes! Eeek! It's a list of the major characters! Another Back Flower Essence website: "Mimulus is used as a type remedy for people who tend to be nervous, timid and shy generally. Sometimes people of this type may blush easily or stammer, and they will usually avoid social occasions and any event where they will be in the limelight. Mimulus is the remedy to encourage the quiet courage and strength that lies hidden in such people, so that they can face the everyday trials of life with steadfastness. Dr Bach's description: Fear of worldly things, illness, pain, accidents, poverty, of dark, of being alone, of misfortune. The fears of everyday life. These people quietly and secretly bear their dread, they do not freely speak of it to others." Sounds like our Neville, and sounds like our new and improved Neville! TK -- Tigerpatronus From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Oct 31 20:20:35 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:20:35 -0000 Subject: A loose end or two... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > Would I speculate that he is still working on them in St Mungo's? > > No. There's no way the Healers would allow a patient in his > condition to have the use of a wand; plus he's in a locked ward most > of the time.> > > > hg: > Ah, but Kneasy, it's *supposed* to be locked -- go back and take a > look at how carefully Healer Strout keeps tabs on old Gilderoy. He > wanders off constantly, and the door to Ward 49 isn't locked at all. > > Not that I think he's faking it. Although I suppose he could be. > For the right reasons?... > hg. They don't seem to be too concerned with security, do they? I think the main danger with Lockhart is his apparently wide-eyed innocence. But he has been revealed as a cold-hearted, calculating, self-serving opportunist. The kids seem to regard him with slightly embarrassed contempt. With Lockhart that could be a mistake. I agree, I don't think he's faking it - now. But as he recovers it may be a different story, he'll revert to type and JKR could get a lot more milage out of him as a high-nuisance character. But will she? We can only hope. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Oct 31 11:14:35 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:14:35 -0000 Subject: further confirmation that Hogwarts is in Scotland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carin_in_oh" wrote: > CArin:> My apologies if this has been pointed out before; I've done a pretty thorough search > and there still seems to be the faintest, lingering doubt about this in the Fantastic > Posts sections on Geography and Hogwarts. > > I've just (finally) acquired the Schoolbooks, and I note that in FBAWTFT, p. 2 (US ed.), > at the end of the entry for Acromantula, the statement "Rumours that a colony of > Acromantula has been established in Scotland are unconfirmed" has been annotated > in a familiar hand, "confirmed by Harry Potter and Ron Weasley." Geoff: Strangely, my mind went back to this a week or so ago when I was re- reading COS. When the thread on Hogwarts was running a couple of months ago, I missed the following piece - Snape with the Daily Prophet when Ron and Harry reach Hogwarts..... "He began to read aloud. 'Two Muggles in London, convinced they saw an old car flying over the POst Office tower... at noon in Norfolk, Mrs.Hetty Bayliss while hanging out her washing...... Mr.Angus Fleet of Peebles, reported to police....." For non-UK readers, Norfolk is a county on the east coast of the UK - It's a bit more to the east than the Hogwarts Express would take using the line out of Kings Cross. Peebles is a town just south of Edinburgh. We don't know where precisly in Norfolk Hetty was, but if you draw a line from the Norfolk area to Peebles and extrapolate it at its northern end, you are heading into the West Highlands. Certainly in the film, one of the well known locations was the Glenfinnan viaduct which is on the West Highland line from Fort William to Mallaig. Geoff From strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 31 13:09:10 2003 From: strikethepose_vouge at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:09:10 -0000 Subject: Wizards and the Queen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: > > Lola: ( I was laura, but there's another laura...) > > > > > > The Minister of Magic is a member of the Prime Minister's > cabinet, > > so > > > the Prime Minister is his superior. This has has been indicated > > sachmet96 > First, I am not British so I only have a basic idea about the UK > government, but when it was said that Fudge informed the Muggle Prime > Minister I kind of assumed that because it is explicitly stated that > it is the Muggle Prime Minister there is also a 'Wizarding' Prime > Minister, why else state the 'Muggle' if there was only one Prime > Minister for the muggle and wizarding world? lola again... why then has the magical Prime Minister not been mentioned? And why does Fudge have the title Minister of Magic, which gives him power over all magical affairs? I imagine that Fudge used the term 'muggle' in this context derogatorily. We know that Fudge believes that Dumbledore, clearly Fudge's superior in every way imaginable, is essentially 'out to get him.' The impression I get is that Fudge believes that he is a master of the universe. He won't concede that Dumbledore is his superior, I don't imagine that he would concede that the Prime Minister is his superior either. hugs Lola...who wonders what kind of conversations Tony Blair would have with Minister Fudge... From belijako at online.no Fri Oct 31 19:23:46 2003 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:23:46 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For?/ Mr Potter, he dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83925 Kirstini wrote: > Incidentally, on the archway, I found this nifty little quote that > must have slipped my eyes on first to third OoP readings: > "...Harry thought the archway had a kind of beauty about it, old > though it was. The gently rippling veil intriguied him; he felt a > very strong inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through it." > OoP (Bloomsbury), p682. > Who's "half in love with easeful death" now? I think that's > foregrounding. Me: Neville, Luna and Ginny also felt drawn to the veil. It was only Ron and Hermione who kept their wits and weren't "entranced" by it... Are you suggesting everyone but Hermione and Ron will die? :-) Berit From olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org Fri Oct 31 13:01:07 2003 From: olivier.fouquet+harry at m4x.org (olivierfouquet2000) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:01:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83926 So it's > hardly petty to feel rage and utter frustration when DD takes himself > out of the picture and refuses to explain why. As for Sirius...we > listees have our differences about whether he was justified in > feeling and acting the way he did, and many of you may know that I'm > completely on Sirius's side. Was the use of Grimmauld Place worth > Sirius's life? Yeah, DD has a lot to answer for. > > Laura, who apologizes for snipping so much of Abigail's terrific post Now me : I am not sure I understand why you think Dumbledore has failed in OoP. His prime goal was to expose Voldemort, he succeeded, and to stop Voldemort finding supporters, he succeeded and even captured very influencial DE that were previously thought innoncent. Of course Sirius is dead as an indirect consequence of the grudge between Snape and the Marauders, but is really Dumbledore to blame ? Sirius volunteered to rescue Harry, and had he not come, it is quite possible that Harry or Neville would be dead (since when Dumbledore arrived, Sirius was one of the last man standing in the Order). In fact, I even feel blaming Dumbledore for the death of Sirius is a bit self- contradictory. DD thought that for Sirius own protection, it was preferfable that he stay in Grimmauld Place. Well, first time he got out he was spotted by a DE, second time he was killed. Who can say DD was wrong ? Now it is true that Sirius wanted to risk his life. Well, he died fighting for his godson, what better death could he wish for (especially considering the fact that he blamed himself harshly for not dying for James as his secret keeper) ? Dumbledore's only serious mistake is not to teach occlumency to Harry himself. All the best, Olivier From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 21:40:12 2003 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:40:12 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For?/ Mr Potter, he dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83927 > Kirstini wrote: > > Incidentally, on the archway, I found this nifty little quote that > > must have slipped my eyes on first to third OoP readings: > > "...Harry thought the archway had a kind of beauty about it, old > > though it was. The gently rippling veil intriguied him; he felt a > > very strong inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through > it." > > OoP (Bloomsbury), p682. > > Who's "half in love with easeful death" now? I think that's > > foregrounding. > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" wrote:Me: > Neville, Luna and Ginny also felt drawn to the veil. It was only Ron > and Hermione who kept their wits and weren't "entranced" by it... Are > you suggesting everyone but Hermione and Ron will die? :-) > Berit Now me: There's also an interesting parallel with the Mimble-plant, as discussed in another post that the Mimbulus (Mimulus) has Jungian flower-power and herbological implications. In the other thread about the Mimble-plant, someone (sorry, don't remember who) noted that Harry, Neville, Ginny, and Luna were sprayed with Mimbulus stinksap on the Hogwarts XP on the way up to school in the first part of OotP. Ron and Hermione were up in the prefects' car and so didn't get doused. This correlates perfectly with who was fascinated by the Veil and who wasn't. TK---Tigerpatronus From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 21:49:48 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:49:48 -0000 Subject: What's Sirius There For?/ Mr Potter, he dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83928 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Berit Jakobsen" > wrote: > > Neville, Luna and Ginny also felt drawn to the veil. It was only > Ron and Hermione who kept their wits and weren't "entranced" by > it... Are > you suggesting everyone but Hermione and Ron will die? :-) > > TK---Tigerpatronus: > There's also an interesting parallel with the Mimble-plant....In the other thread about the Mimble-plant, someone (sorry, don't remember who) noted that Harry, Neville, Ginny, and Luna were sprayed with Mimbulus stinksap on the Hogwarts XP on the way up to school in the first part of OotP. Ron and Hermione were up in the prefects' car and so didn't get doused. This correlates perfectly with who was fascinated by the Veil and who wasn't. Now me: What do you want to bet that Luna is also strongly affected by dementors? These four are the ones who have had horrible things happen to them. Harry's parents dead, Neville's insane, Luna saw her mother die, and Ginny was taken over by Voldemort. Whereas Ron & Hermione are pretty much unscathed by life so far. Erin From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 31 22:30:03 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:30:03 -0000 Subject: Mr Potter, he dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83929 I wrote: >> Incidentally, on the archway, I found this nifty little quote that must have slipped my eyes on first to third OoP readings: "...Harry thought the archway had a kind of beauty about it, old though it was. The gently rippling veil intriguied him; he felt a very strong inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through it." OoP (Bloomsbury), p682. Who's "half in love with easeful death" now? I think that's foregrounding.>> To which Berit replied: > Neville, Luna and Ginny also felt drawn to the veil. It was only Ron and Hermione who kept their wits and weren't "entranced" by it... Are you suggesting everyone but Hermione and Ron will die? :-)> A fair point, but no, I'm not. I wasn't talking about the fact that Harry was drawn to the veil, I was pointing out the use of language in the passage - the focus on the fact that he finds the veil (which equals death) strangely beautiful, and that he's inclined to walk through it (ie to kill himself, although the reader/Harry doesn't know this at the time). We now know that Harry finds death beautiful, that he's attracted to it, even - in strong contrast with Voldemort. We don't have this sort of information on Neville, Luna and Ginny - we don't know their feelings about the veil, only that they were entranced by it, which could be for entirely different reasons. Anyway, more to come if I manage to get a wriggle on with thiis Big Bumper Death post Kirstini From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 22:40:26 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:40:26 -0000 Subject: Mr Potter, he dead. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 83930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > I wrote: > > >> Incidentally, on the archway, I found this nifty little quote that > must have slipped my eyes on first to third OoP readings: "...Harry > thought the archway had a kind of beauty about it, old > though it was. The gently rippling veil intriguied him; he felt a > very strong inclination to climb up on the dais and walk through > it." > OoP (Bloomsbury), p682. > Who's "half in love with easeful death" now? I think that's > foregrounding.>> > > > To which Berit replied: > > Neville, Luna and Ginny also felt drawn to the veil. It was only > Ron and Hermione who kept their wits and weren't "entranced" by it... > Are you suggesting everyone but Hermione and Ron will die? :-)> > > A fair point, but no, I'm not. I wasn't talking about the fact that > Harry was drawn to the veil, I was pointing out the use of language > in the passage - the focus on the fact that he finds the veil (which > equals death) strangely beautiful, and that he's inclined to walk > through it (ie to kill himself, although the reader/Harry doesn't > know this at the time). We now know that Harry finds death beautiful, > that he's attracted to it, even - in strong contrast with Voldemort. sorry to snip but...> Kirstini Hmmm, in the US edition, I dont think an inscription is given. To me this is like a prelude to to how Harry was feeling when LV was inside him. Imho, I think Harry finds death as a way to ease his pain, not beautiful. The question to me is why were Harry, Neville, Luna and Ginny attracted to the veil. Is the veils attraction the reason why it is in the DOM, as it is something the lures people to their death? Fran From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com Fri Oct 31 23:15:33 2003 From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:15:33 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Droobles' Anagram (Yet Again) -- GOLD BRIBE References: Message-ID: <006901c3a004$eb60aa40$1885aec7@rick> No: HPFGUIDX 83931 > TK -- Tigerpatronus: > > The anagrams are fun, though, both as a possible actual clue but also > as an insight into our own paranoid minds ("It was in capital > letters! It sounds odd! It must *mean* something!). I'm also inclined > to think that JKR won't do something as cheesy as an anagram twice. Iggy here: Here's a fun concept for all of you to play with... and it relates to the anagrams concept. Sometimes, as in this case, the study of the Anagrams may end up yielding similar results to those of Numerology. It's a form of divination that can yield interesting, and sometimes amazingly accurate, results. While the origination of the phrase, name, etc may not be intentional, the result can actually reveal something about the source. In other words, while JKR may or may not be using anagrams as clues, the study of them can have the potential to still reveal something about the surrounding plot. While the anagram of "Tom Marvolo Riddle" converting to "I am Lord Voldemort" may be intentional, and the "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum" converting to "GOLD BRIBE BELOW ST. MUNGO'S " may not be, both can have the potential to reveal something about the surrounding circumstances. Even if the latter anagram is unintentional on the part of JKR, if we find out in book 6 that someone has been bribing some of the staff of St. Mungo's to keep certain people incapacitated, or eliminate some who are recovering... then intentional or not, the anagram has revealed something about the plot surrounding the gum being given to the Longbottom's. To be honest, I would not be surprised if Trelawny planned on teaching something like this eventually as a form of divination becaue, if I recall correctly, it *is* considered to be one. Iggy McSnurd (Who DOES realize that he sounds like he could be Trelawney's cousin in this letter...)