Did Lupin Kill Sirius? (long)

Tue Oct 14 00:38:29 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 82860

Wow! Evil Lupin supporters are apparating in from all over!  

I don't know if Lupin killed Sirius.  Sirius to Peter:  "You weren't 
about to commit murder under Albus Dumbledore's nose." I was 
thinking JKR was telling us no wizard would have the guts to try 
something like that. All the DE's except crazy Bella stop fighting 
as soon as Dumbledore arrives.

And then I remembered the rest of it, "for a wreck of a wizard 
who'd lost all of his power." Voldemort has returned. That 
changes everything. Maybe that quote was foreshadowing and 
JKR was hinting that someone *would* commit murder under 
Dumbledore's nose when Voldemort returned. But why would 
Lupin have turned against his friends and joined the Dark Side 
anyway? And why kill Sirius in such a risky fashion?

Phil:
>>>>In talking about the goblins going over to LV, in OOP, 5:

"I think it depends what they're offered," said Lupin. "And I'm
not talking about gold; if they're offered freedoms we've been
denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted."

Lupin might be tempted by an offer from LV to cure him of being 
a werewolf.<<<<

On a hunch, I googled "multiple sclerosis" and "orphan drug." 

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/%5CSourcebook-Orphan%20
Drugs.asp

====The term "orphan drugs" is used for both experimental and 
proven drug therapies that are intended for conditions that affect 
a limited number of people. In these instances where the 
potential market is very small, pharmaceutical manufacturers 
have little financial incentive to develop or market the drugs====

This is a problem that JKR would have faced personally in  her 
mother's struggle with MS.

Werewolves are impoverished and there aren't enough of them 
to pay for extensive research into their condition. There's so 
much more money in haircare products.  Sleekeasy's, anyone?  
But Voldemort has a use for tame werewolves. What if he could 
command werewolves the way he can command the basilisk?  I 
think we may find out that Snape did some of the research on the 
wolfsbane potion while he was working for Lord Voldemort. 
Lupin might have been drawn into this effort, by trickery or by 
disillusionment with the Order.

The Order isn't in business to gain rights  for werewolves. 
Dumbledore  is on the same side as anyone who will work 
against Voldemort, including bigots like Fudge. And Dumbledore 
is on the optimistic side when it comes to people overcoming 
their longterm prejudices and working together. 

We can only speculate on what happened after Lupin left 
Hogwarts. But...

During the last century, smart, idealistic Cambridge-educated 
young men became spies for the Soviet Union, They dismissed 
or made excuses for the  Stalinist purges. Would Lupin be any 
wiser?

***speculation***
Dumbledore  hoped that having spent 7 years at Hogwarts 
without any incident, Lupin would be accepted by the Wizarding 
World when he left school. But those 7 years coincided with the 
rise of Voldemort. Fear and suspicion of strange wizards was 
everywhere. Hagrid and Sirius speak of the dark days when no 
one knew whom to trust.  Despite all the influence Dumbledore 
could bring to bear, no one was willing to give Lupin a chance.

It wasn't the best time for a werewolf rights break through. . Lupin 
joined the Order, perhaps because he believed in it, or perhaps 
because his only  friends did. He couldn't get a real job.  There 
wasn't much he could do to help the Order or vice versa. The 
Order was trying to get all wizardkind behind them and were 
rights were a divisive issue. They told  Lupin to wait, to be 
patient. But young men are not naturally patient. Lupin had been 
waiting seven long years already. He may have needed money 
and felt inferior to his independently wealthy friends James and 
Sirius.

And Voldemort lied...it wouldn't be as easy as you think to see 
through him, because the ministry was lying too, trying to cover 
up Voldemort's outrages from the Muggles.   Voldemort could 
claim that he deplores the excesses done in his name, that he 
opposes Muggles and Mugglelovers because immigrants to the 
wizarding world bring their  superstitious fear of "monsters"  with 
them. All will be sweetness and light once the magical world is 
purified of their influence. Lupin hates and dreads himself for 
what he is...how would it feel to be valued for his Darkness 
instead of in spite of it, not just by a little clique at school but by 
the followers of the most powerful Wizard the world has ever 
known?
***end speculation****

Samnaya  (82770):

>>Only thing missing is a solid evil motive. Lupin could have
been turned just because of the prejudice that wizards have
borne towards werewolves, but is it enough? He might not
even be loyal to or working for Voldemort and is just acting
as a "lone wolf" (sorry, I couldnt resist that).<<

KathyK (82807):

It's possible he could be acting alone.  In that case, though, why 
kill Sirius if not to further Voldemort's cause by hurting Harry?  
Could it be that Lupin's just grown so bitter and angry over the 
years toward Sirius who helped ruin his life by tricking Snape 
into the passage under the Whomping Willow? (Apologies to 
Kneasy, I believe he's the one who threw something along these 
lines out there a while ago)  Has Lupin been planning for this 
ever since Sirius escaped and has been biding his time for the 
right moment to strike?  

Salit (82810):
>>Sorry I don't buy it. Lupin is such a *decent* person there is no 
way in my mind that he could be the traitor<<

Lupin may not be a vicious person but he seems to be an 
alarmingly cold-blooded one. He is willing to murder his former 
friend Peter. He never expresses sympathy for anybody but his 
pals.  He feels bad for not reining in his friends and for taking 
advantage of Dumbledore's trust, but his remorse rings hollow 
since he never offered any apology or restitution nor did he 
change his ways. 

Lauri writes (82813):

>>I don't think it'll be anyone from the "older" 
generations either. I suspect the one to betray the order will 
come from Harry's generation, it's THEIR story this time.<<

Up to the end of OOP, Harry thought his task was to live up to his 
father's legacy. The readers, well, this one anyway, have always 
suspected that  Harry's task is actually to succeed where his 
father failed. James failed to catch the traitor, failed to save
Lily, failed to keep his friends from turning to the Dark Side, failed 
to reconcile with Snape, failed to trust Dumbledore fully.

 I think Harry's friends will be tempted as James's were, but 
because they remain united, they will stand fast.  Snape is not 
remote from the story. There are hints that James disregarded 
information from Snape that could have saved him and Lily. Will 
Harry make the same mistake because he's blaming the wrong 
person for Sirius's death? 

Since James was undone by treachery, Harry must face 
treachery and defeat it. Not knowing whom to trust is a major 
theme in all the books. 

But let's to business. Assuming that Lupin killed Sirius, why?  It 
cannot have been a random killing. Bella  had engaged Sirius 
already. If Lupin just wanted to off somebody for the DE side, 
then he would have done more good, so to speak,  by killing  
Tonks or Moody. It can not have been purely a crime of 
opportunity. Lupin had passed up many better chances to kill 
Sirius.

I think Talisman is on the right track. Almost.  Somehow,  
Dumbledore's arrival  sealed Sirius's fate.  But not because 
Dumbledore wanted Black dead. I think Sirius had to die 
because Dumbledore's arrival could mean only one thing. The 
DE plan had gone awry. Kreacher had confessed to the wrong 
person. 

To abridge OOP:
"It was the Elf who told me-laughing fit to burst-where Sirius had 
gone"
"He was laughing?"
"Oh yes" [1]

Kreacher did not behave like an innocent Elf. He deliberately 
invited discovery by taunting Dumbledore. What if the Malfoys 
ordered Kreacher to confess so that another traitor would remain 
hidden? What if Kreacher only feigned his attempts to resist 
questioning? What if the confession was only partly true?

Suppose that Sirius had stayed behind  and Kreacher had 
laughed at *him.* Sirius would have questioned Kreacher. Sirius 
would have learned that Kreacher had betrayed him.  You don't 
need to be a seer to predict what would have happened next.  
Sirius would have murdered Kreacher or ordered him to die. By 
the time Dumbledore arrived there would have been no one left 
to reveal that  Kreacher was not the only traitor at Grimmauld 
Place. 

But no battle plan survives the beginning of the battle. Sirius 
disobeyed orders and went to the MOM. As it fell out, 
Dumbledore was the first to question Kreacher. 

And Kreacher lied as he had been ordered to do. Yes, even 
when Dumbledore thought he had got the truth out of him. 
House Elves can lie to people who are not their masters without 
having to punish themselves. If an occlumens is skilled enough 
he can lie to a legilimens undetected.  Dumbledore has been 
deceived time and again.[2]

If Sirius had survived to return to Grimmauld Place then together 
he and Dumbledore might have arrived at the truth. Dumbledore 
wouldn't have let Sirius kill Kreacher, and if Kreacher repeated 
his lies to his master, he would have had to reveal it by 
punishing himself.

ESE!Lupin had only a moment or two after Dumbledore arrived 
at the MOM to save himself.  If Kreacher's false confession held 
up against Dumbledore's legilimency, then Lupin still had a 
chance. If not, then there was nothing to lose by one more killing. 
Sirius had to die. Lupin's emotional turmoil may have been 
genuine, though whether he mourned Sirius or the failure of his 
plan to spare him we don't yet know.

Hmmmm.

Pippin
almost convinced

[1] OOP- ch 37

 "I tell you once, I tell you twice, what I tell you three times is
true." 
- Lewis Carroll. Are snorkaks  related to snarks?

[2]  House Elves lie~OOP ch. 37. Occlumency defeating 
Legilimency~OOP ch. 24

I have a theory about Legilimency. We know that the most 
powerful magics rely on the state of mind of the user. You can 
ride a broom if you are utterly confident of your ability, dismiss 
Dementors only if you know you can, and so on.  To detect 
falsehood, I suspect, the legilimens must be 100% confident in 
his ability. Which means that Dumbledore cannot doubt himself.  
So, Dumbledore not only never detects that Quirrell, et al, are 
deceiving him, he can not allow himself to even consider that 
they might be.

Of course this applies to Voldemort too. Once he's used 
legilimency on Snape and failed to discover that Snape has 
betrayed him, Voldemort has no choice but to believe absolutely 
that Snape is loyal. 