The Second Rebuttal (Was Re: Pippin you've done it again!)

[augustinapeach]

No: HPFGUIDX 83040

Because of length, I'm only going to include the preceding 
comment. For the complete debate, see post #82913. (I also 
lost the message when I tried to post, so I'm trying to 
reconstruct it -- hope it makes sense!)
 
> KathyK:
It's true, Lupin can't help being what he is. Recall, though, 
while at Hogwarts he and his friends spent numerous full 
moons running freely around the grounds and in the forest. 
Lupin even says, 'And there were near misses, many of them.' 
(PoA, US paperback 355) If he were really concerned about the 
safety of others he would have remained in the Shrieking Shack.  
> 
They endangered students, teachers, and the inhabitants of 
nearby Hogsmeade. That's a great many people.  How many years 
did this go on?  The point is that even though he knew what 
he was and how dangerous it was he refused to take the 
precautions to ensure he didn't hurt anyone. And it wasn't up 
to his friends to get him to do what was right. They can't be 
blamed for his poor choices.  

AP:  

Maybe not. But they can certainly share the blame. Lupin 
evidently tried to hide the fact he was a werewolf from his 
friends.  He made up excuses to cover his monthly 
disappearances (PoA, p. 354). However, James and Sirius (I'm 
assuming it was them, not Peter) figured out the mystery and 
set out on their own to learn how to become illegal Animagi. 
Then they "sneaked out of the castle every month under James' 
Invisibility Cloak . . .They would then slip down the tunnel 
and join me" (p. 354). Judging from the scene in OoP (p. 645)
-- which was the same year they finally worked out the 
Animagus transformation -- it was James and Sirius, not 
Lupin, who served as the catalysts for the full moon 
excursions.  Remember also that they were teenagers. Given the 
reality of peer pressure, how mature would Lupin have to be 
to refuse to go with his friends after they've gone to so much 
trouble to be with him during his miserable time as a werewolf? 
We can see from the real (Muggle) world that teens in a group 
(or pair) will often do terrible things they would never do alone. 

> KathyK:
 
. . . but Dumbledore hadn't gone to great lengths to help 
the others.  Lupin was the only one who wouldn't have been allowed 
at the school because of his condition.  Dumbledore got him in and 
kept his secret.  (snip) Lupin's disregard for what Dumbledore 
did for him so that he could have some fun with his friends is a 
greater betrayal of trust than the other three. (snip) Lupin's 
explanation doesn't cut it.  It makes him an awful coward if he's 
not evil.  To put the entire population of Hogwarts in danger, 
especially Harry, because he was *ashamed* that he'd betrayed 
Dumbledore's trust is ridiculous.  If he were so ashamed, why not 
atone for it by coming clean about Sirius being an animagus?  And 
he knew Sirius wasn't evil because he's evil himself. ;-)

AP:

Not to be repetitive, but peer pressure would play a role in this 
as well.  Add to that the fact that Lupin had probably been 
isolated ever since being bitten and that he finally had friends.  
". . .I was happier than I had ever been in my life.  For the first 
time ever, I had friends, three great friends" (p. 354).  To 
tell Dumbledore that his friends were illegal Animagi would have been 
to risk losing their friendship. The teen years are the period of 
life when friends are most important, so I think it is understandable 
that Lupin wasn't willing to go back to being isolated (and imagine 
how James and Sirius would have treated him for ratting on them!).  
As an adult, Lupin admits to being a coward, and he's undoubtedly 
suffered a lot of cognitive dissonance over keeping this information 
from Dumbledore.  But people *will* find some way to justify 
themselves, especially when it comes to maintaining their standing 
with someone important to them. 

> KathyK:
 
What I believe Doxy is trying to communicate is that there must be 
some reason that they suspected Lupin might be the spy.  As in he 
must have done something to cause them to become suspicious.  

AP:

Not necessarily. I don't think James ever considered anyone other 
than Sirius to be Secret-Keeper. After all, they were the closest 
of friends. "You'd have thought Black and Potter were brothers . . . 
Inseparable! (PoA, p. 204).  Then Sirius (I'm betting on his own) 
decided to "change to Peter at the last moment" (p. 365).  Sirius 
does say he thought Lupin was the spy (p. 373), but that could have 
been by a process of elimination rather than because Lupin had done 
anything suspicious:  "Someone close to the Potters has been giving 
LV information about them, It's not me, Peter is a "weak, talentless 
thing" (p. 369) that even LV would have no use for, that leaves 
Lupin." 
 
> Doxy:
  
(Side note: Why is Lupin's name so conspicuously absent during the 
discussion between McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid, & Fudge at the 3 
broomsticks? He doesn't even get an honorable mention. He was 
working at the school, it's not like they could have just forgotten 
about him.)

AP:

Lupin is mentioned by implication as part of the "little gang" 
James and Sirius led (PoA, p. 204).  The story then moves into 
events that Lupin wasn't involved with -- the Secret-keeper, the 
Potters' murder -- so there was no reason to mention him.  (for 
another reason, see post #82958)

> Salit:
 
He is the one who stops Harry from running after Sirius.<
 
> KathyK:
 
Yes, because he thought Harry still had the prophecy and he 
didn't want to lose that.  Besides by that point Dumbledore had 
turned toward the dais and seen Sirius.  It would have blown Lupin's 
cover to just let Harry go running into the archway if he could stop 
it.

AP:

If Lupin knows that Harry is the "one with the power to vanquish 
the Dark Lord," it makes complete sense for him to stop Harry 
from running through the archway to his death (assuming that's what 
would happen). 

(The next couple of comments dealt with whether Lupin killed 
Sirius, a topic that has been discussed thoroughly in other posts, 
and I have nothing to add.)

> Salit:
Lupin's role in the group was to look out for the kids. 
 
> KathyK:
 
Or he knew the kids were the ones who had the prophecy.  And he 
didn't want to lose that so he chose the role of looking out for 
them so he could get his hands on it.

AP:

Sirius tells Harry to leave twice before Lupin does (see p. 803, 
OoP), so it seems clear the Order members just want the kids out of 
the way during the battle so they won't get hurt.

 
> >Salit (who knows she can't convince anyone but decided to respond 
anyway)
> 
> KathyK (who knows she won't convince Salit but is having lots of 
fun discussing it)

AP (This *is* fun -- I'm having to think carefully about all my 
assumptions!)