Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic)

[Talisman]

No: HPFGUIDX 83112

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" 
<annemehr at y...> wrote:<snip> Her response #82348 to Talisman's 
#82031.> 

> Talisman, holding the torch for the Fellowship of the D.U.S.T. 
(Dumbledore Undercover Surveillance Team), responds: 
> 
Annemehr says,now(i.e. most recently):
I remembered getting the distinct impression you questioned how much 
protection Harry was getting on Privet Drive when I read your post. 
Then when I wrote my reply . . . actually it had been the 
parenthetical remark that had done it. To requote you: 'We see that 
it is not simply Lily's death that gives Harry what little 
protection he gets (partial days six weeks a year?) from 
this "ancient magic."'  Partial days, six weeks a year is not much 
protection!

Talisman now:
No it's not much time,is it?  You know that I think Dumbledore is 
lying like a rug (D.O.L.L.A.R.: Dumbledore Obviously Lies Like A 
Rug) when he says that Harry has had to live with the beastly 
Dursley's all these years to protect him from LV.
 
> Talisman Before: 
> [...]I don't think we see a lot of superfluous movement from DD. 
If you can point me to a  pattern of contingency plans, I'd love to 
consider them. 

Annemehr now:
Who fights a war without contingency plans? And how would Harry (and 
thus the reader) see any? 

Talisman Now:
I understand your logic, *I* would certainly have contingency plans, 
but I'm not as preternaturally prescient as DD (N.O. D.I.P.P.: Not 
Omniscient, Dumbledore Is Preternaturally Prescient).

 As to our knowing about them, although JKR uses Harry's limited 
view to misdirect and control the flow of information, we can still 
see a good bit around him.  Harry wouldn't have to recognize 
evidence of Plan "B" for a reader to do so. 

I do think Snape is often acting as Harry's bodyguard, so I suppose 
that would be an ongoing "back up" to whatever else is going on. 
But, for the most part, I see DD as more of a Kung-Fu Master type, 
minimum motion/maximum effect.

Annemehr:
The best I can think of is in the Hospital Wing at the end of GoF 
when DD sends Hagrid off to the Giants and Bill Weasley off to the 
MoM to look for allies (e.g. Tonks, who is too young to have been a 
part of the old Order). By the way, I'm sure there are motions 
toward the Goblins too. In a Daily Prophet article
about Umbridge being named High Inquisitor, Madam Marchbanks is 
mentioned along with an insinuation that she'd been linked 
to "subversive goblin groups."

Talisman now:
I agree that DD is gathering his forces.  At the end of GoF the Cold 
War has turned Hot again.  However, I don't see this as a 
contingency plan.  It's a phase of the Second War. 

DD is raising an army/establishing allies. It's important to him to 
include the Giants and Goblins because 1) LV will be trying to 
recruit them; and, more importantly, 2) DD's war is all about 
reintegration.  
> 
> Annemehr: 
> And why couldn't it be James who died for Harry if that was how 
the situation played out? Then you'd only need Harry in the presence 
of  either one of his parents at all times, a practice Lily and 
James are likely to adhere to in any case, with their son so 
threatened. <snip> There is no problem in suggesting one of them 
[the parents]   would need to die defending Harry, either, if it 
came down to that. 
> Why can't this be all DD did,  rather than arranging the deaths of 
James and Lily in a certain way? 
> 
Talisman wrote: 
> My dear Annemehr. You know James was going to be killed anyway.  
His death was certain and therefore not the "sacrifice" that Lily's  
was. See e.g. SS 249, 298 and GoF 635. Both DD and LV repeat that 
> it is Lily's willing and unnecessary death that is key to 
the "old  magic," in all its applications.

Annemehr now:
*Do* I know James was to be killed anyway? I've just discussed that 
a bit a few messages ago, in a reply to "KIM", and mentioned Sirius' 
words about Wormtail delivering "the last of the Potters" to 
Voldemort
in PoA. *If* Sirius really knew something about it, that would imply 
James was targeted too. Your page numbers above don't correspond to 
my editions, though I do believe I know what the SS ones are. The GoF
one I can't find. I do read where V talks of Lily's sacrifice but 
nothing of James. I do remember reading *somewhere* V saying "your 
mother needn't have died" and think this must be what you mean? That
would be quite persuasive, but I can't find it now to verify my 
memory of it.

Talisman now: 
DyslexiaReverso! I seem to have transposed a few numbers.  SS 249 
should be SS 294, GoF 635 should be 653. 

In SS, on page 294, Voldemort says, (from the back of Quirrell's 
head): "I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous 
fight . . .BUT your mother needn't have died." (my emphasis)

 The word "but" is used linguistically to show contrast, so, in this 
case: your father DID need to die. Which indicates that LV planned 
to kill James no matter what.

I didn't find the KIM reply you mention, do you have a number? But, 
the idea that James would die anyway meshes well with the quote you 
point out, regarding delivering the "last of the Potters." Though a 
lot of wizarding families appear to be dying out (including LV`s, as 
he`s last of the Slytherin), it does seem that wiping out the Potter 
blood line is important to LV.  

SS 298 is the beginning of the exchange where Harry reiterates LV's 
words to DD: "Voldemort said he only killed my mother because she 
tried to stop him from killing me." DD responds "Your mother died to 
save you." i.e., She didn't die fighting per se, or fighting for her 
own life, she died specifically "to save Harry." 

 At Gof  653 Voldemort refers to the effect of "the foolish woman's 
sacrifice."  James died trying to protect his family, so why 
wouldn't LV speak in terms of parental sacrifice, instead of just 
Lily's? It seems to me that Lily's death is separated out and 
considered to be of a special, more specifically sacrificial 
nature.    

As to the effect of the sacrifice, versus the rune charm, LV is just 
echoing what Harry told TR in CoS, which is only what DD told Harry 
in SS. (In case I'm assuming agreement on this point, I'll add that 
because TR/MemoryVort knew of LV's experiences with Harry, it 
follows that LV shared TR/MemoryVort's knowledge, as well.)  

Talisman then: 
> Moreover, DD's shield charm requires the home of a family member 
who  shares the blood of the sacrificed one. James has no other 
living blood relatives, so even if his death could qualify for a 
sacrifice (which I deny, no offense to James) there would be no safe 
home created.

Annemehr now:
If James was *not* going to be killed anyway, and he had sacrificed 
himself as Lily did, he could at least have saved Harry that night, 
and Harry's further protection would have had to be arranged
differently. 

Talisman now:
According to DD, the charm that uses the blood link between 
sacrificed one/home owner/shield beneficiary is "the strongest 
shield" he could give Harry.  (OoP 836).  Either DD is lying, or 
there is no equivalent Plan B.

I actually think that the blood shield 1) is important for 
undisclosed reasons 2) will play a role before the end of the 
series, BUT 3) I also think DD has lied about its import so far, and 
4) I especially don't think it's "protection" explains/justifies the 
10+ years of abuse to which DD consigned Harry. 

Watch out Annemehr, in saying that you think DD had other options to 
keep Harry safe, you are doing a pretty good job of nailing DD as a 
liar, too.   

Talisman then:
> 1)DD invoked the runic charm before the attack--that's why its  
effect was seen as a consequence to the attack. If the charm is to  
work:
> 2) Lily has to die, there is no other candidate; 
> 3) Lily can't die fighting LV in any other context than willingly 
> throwing herself in front of Harry; 
> 4) Harry can't be allowed to be attacked if Lily isn't in front of 
> him; 
> 5) If you've come this far, you can't believe DD's going to leave 
it 
> all to chance.

Annemehr now:
1)DD or Lily did it, but they were working together I think.

Talisman now:
Oh, yes. I think it would have been important to DD that Lily 
understand exactly what was needed.

Annemehr wrote:
2 through 4)I can see that Lily may have been told to stay with 
Harry at all times while they were in hiding, especially if it was 
she who did the rune charm. Working back, listies *had* wondered 
before why
Lily never used her wand. If she had been part of the planning all 
along, in case of the worst, DD may have told her that her wand 
would be useless to the rune charm, that she should defend Harry 
without
one. 

Talisman now:
 Or, both DD and Lily knew that there would be no way to stop LV 
from killing Lily, and the only way to stop him from killing Harry 
would be to activate the rune charm through her sacrificial death. 
 
By playing enough of Harry's memory to make us think Lily didn't 
even try to use her wand, JKR may simply be underscoring 
the "knowing" and purely sacrificial nature of Lily's death.

Annemehr wrote
Listies have also considered that Harry may be more powerful without 
*his* wand, so why not Lily? Maybe this has something to do 
with "ancient magic" and the wandless magic Harry (as any other
wizard) does when pushed to extremes.

 Talisman now:
Certainly the raw power derived from Lily's sacrifice didn't require 
a wand. Whether harnessing that power required one, is another 
question. The initial performance of the rune charm probably did 
involve a wand, just as charms in Flitwick's classes do, but at this 
point we don't have that information. 

Nonetheless, I think wandless magic will be very important before 
the end of the book.  I'll add a post to that effect to 
the "Wandless Magic" thread that's been around recently. (This post 
is long enough.)

Annemehr wrote: 
5)Do you mean that DD has arranged all this *in case* the Fidelius 
Charm fails? Or do you mean that he arranged for this very thing to 
happen, implying that he ensured the Fidelius Charm *would* fail?

Talisman now:
Weeeell, if Fidelius Charm's are so great, why did Harry have to go 
live with the nasty abusive Dursley's?  In my restaurant you can 
have your choice of menu options, either:

1) Fidelius Charm's aren't as wonderful as the professorial gang in 
PoA thinks, and DD knew failure was an eventuality (though I still 
think he would have tweaked things so that the breach occurred when 
everyone was in place for the rune charm scenerio.) 

Therefore, DD's plan = no Fidelius Charm's going to fool LV, the 
only way to protect Harry is this rune charm (with all the attendant 
advantages of #2), so I'll get that all set up.  And, we better have 
the failure happen in close proximity to LV's threat of attack, so 
that Lily's still hovering over Harry, (she can't stay in his room 
for years). We've got Wormtail here, just dying to pass 
information.  Now all I have to do is help Sirius have a "bright 
idea."  

Or

2) Fidelius Charm's are air-tight, but DD just wants to do the 
Dursley thing because he :1) needs to groom a certain mentality in 
his little "chosen one," 2) has future plans for the blood-pact 
business, 3) has future plans for the Dursely`s. The rest follows #1.

> 
> Annemehr wrote: 
> [Aside: If DD *is* choreographing things, he could have brought  
Pettigrew to Voldemort's attention through his spy, Snape, and I've  
no doubt he could have planted the "Pettigrew as unlikely secret-
> keeper" seed with Sirius, too -- but that's not any proof.]
> 
> Talisman then: 
> Pettigrew had been LV's spy for over a year. (PoA 374) The 
Godric's  Hollow attack occurred "barely a week after the Fidelius 
Charm had  been performed [on Sirius]," (PoA 205), therefore likely 
only days 
> after the "switch" to Pettigrew.  Pettigrew ran straight to his  
master.

Annemehr now:
Are you agreeing with me then? The prophecy was given when Lily was 
pregnant (DD says, "shortly before [Harry's] birth" in ch.37 of 
OoP). As the Godric's Hollow attack happened when Harry was 15 
months old,
that does give DD some time to make plans, put V on to Pettigrew, 
and have Pettigrew establish himself as a spy for "over a year" 
before that Halloween. I'm not saying that's what I believe, just 
that it's possible.

Talisman now: 
All that I am saying is that I am sure DD knew Wormtail was a spy, 
long before the switch. That you can see how this could be arranged, 
is encouraging.  But, if there is any suggestion in your theory that 
Wormtail was DD's mole, I don't accept that.  Pawn yes, mole no.

> Annemehr wrote: 
> Now, if this "protection at Privet Drive" business was so 
wonderful,  you could argue that DD hoped to be able to deploy it, 
but as far as  we can tell from OoP, Harry needs to be in the house 
to take advantage of it. You yourself, in your second paragraph 
above, imply  this "protection" is not all it's claimed to be.  
<snip>  the Privet Drive protection does seem to have deterred 
Voldemort, however potent it actually is, so it's certainly served a 
purpose, I suppose. As I wrote before:  <snip> [Voldemort] certainly 
seems to know about the protection (but   how?) and believe in it, 
but he seems to think it applies to the  entire neighborhood; or 
else he's just scared of DD's guards and is   embarrassed to admit 
it. Why wouldn't he try an alleyway attack as  Delores Umbridge 
did?  Did Dumbledore manage to feed him some (mis)  information 
somehow?
> 
> Talisman replied: 
> Supposedly LV's been too weak to attack until his re-bodification 
in GoF [and after the disastrous graveyard duel he wants to know the 
rest of the prophecy before he tries again].<snip>

Annemehr:
Yes, but rather than the elaborate setup with the TWT, why not wait, 
what, a week or so, and attack Harry in Little Whinging? V seems to 
believe Harry *is* too well protected there, that he does need to get
Harry to win the TWT (no small feat!) instead. I still wonder how V 
got that information and how much of it is correct.

Talisman now:
Well, for one thing, LV didn't have a week or so to wait or attack.

Let's back up.

Readers have long been disgruntled with the seemingly over-elaborate 
plan to get at Harry via the TWT. The best explanation I've heard 
(and I believe JKR endorses) is the one that center's on LV desire 
to avoid suspicion (he doesn`t want to have to fight until he`s up 
to sufficient power).  He needs Harry at the Little Hangleton 
Gravesite so that all the ingredients are, er, handy, and then he 
wants to have Harry turn up dead in a way that won't make anyone 
think LV was involved.

It took post-PoA Wormtail some amount of time to make his way from 
Hogwarts to Albania (picking up Bertha along the way); then, after 
they debriefed Bertha, Wormtail had to help LV conjer up his 
temporary "ugly baby" body, and then they had to make their way back 
to England.  I don't know how they traveled, but Wormtail had time 
to mull over plans along the way (GoF 10) so apparently they didn't 
apparate; and LV is obviously all pooped-out and begging for a 
Nagini shake by the time they arrive in Little Hangleton. 

LV killed Frank Bryce the same night he arrived in Little Hangleton. 
(GoF 7) From the evidence that we have, the Riddle House is the 
first place LV stopped in England.  Harry dreamt about Bryce's 
murder while it was happening. (GoF 16)  The Weasleys`s invitation 
arrived the next morning (GoF reading pages 16-30, to ensure no 
extra days sneak in ), and he left for the burrow the next day (a 
Sunday) (GoF reading 30-36).

Between the part of the summer consumed by the master/servant 
reunion and the trip back, coupled with the fact that Harry left the 
Dursleys's a day later, if LV wanted to attack while Harry was 
strolling around Little Whinging he 1) had about one day to get 
there and do it 2) would have to rely on Wormtail to manage 
a "disappearance" that wouldn't send DD's guards into a flurry 
(because, of course, LV doesn't understand that DD wants him to use 
Harry's blood).   

Therefore, I don't see any  basis for assuming that the blood shield 
played a role in keeping LV away from Little Whinging through the 
end of GoF. After the disaster in the Graveyard (just imagine 
Lord "I am now going to prove my power by killing him" Voldemort 
facing the DE's after Harry disappears with the portkey) LV wants to 
hear the prophecy before coming after Harry again, so that there 
won't be any more exhibitions of failure to erode his command over 
the DE's.     

(As an aside: We know DD knew LV would come after the orb bait, free 
will or not, based on the circumstances and the personality 
involved, it WAS predictable.)   

<snip> 
> Annemehr wrote: 
> I'm not sure this applies to anything else, but the spell is very  
fortunately constructed for Voldemort. Three people are required -- 
Father, Servant, and Enemy. Pick a servant, any servant: no problem.
> 
> Talisman then: 
> Can't agree with that. Vapormort was rather short on servants as 
he languished in Albania. Especially ones DD would send him because  
they have a blood debt to Harry Potter. Then there's Wormtail's 
>lovely proclivity for amputation.

Annemehr now:
>From V's point of view, as long as he had *any* servant who could 
take him to Little Hangleton, brew the potion, etc., then he had one 
potion ingredient to hand. It's not a very specific ingredient. 

Talisman now:
I don't think LV did have much choice.

1)LV was busy having his "darkest hour" in Albania (GoF 654) and 
found it *inordinately* lucky that Wormtail showed up, "I could not 
hope that I would be sent another wizard to possess" (654).  

LV didn't find out about Crouch, Jr.'s availability until Wormtail 
brought him Bertha Jorkins.  And, he also needed Wormtail ex machina 
to get to Crouch Jr.  

I think it is VERY telling that LV didn't use the back of Quirrell's 
head  to contact any of the DE's when he was running around the WW 
all of 1991; ditto ugly baby LV doesn't ask Wormtail to get in touch 
with any of the DE's when he gets back to town in GoF.  No indeed, 
LV doesn't  want to see the rest of the DE's until he has his body 
back and his wand in hand. 

Notwithstanding all the recriminations for not coming to look for 
him, it seems clear that there aren't many DE's to whom LV is 
willing to expose himself while in a vulnerable condition. While the 
potion itself may have been indifferent as to whose flesh it got, LV 
has other serious considerations that sharply curtail the potential 
servant-ingredient list.  Say, down to one.

DD is making this all come together, and for DD's purposes also, 
Wormtail was the only choice.

> Annemehr wrote:
> Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy ingredient.
> 
> Talisman replied: 
> Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too. (GoF 8-9; 656) But LV 
(and  DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it 
took  his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a 
plan which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated.

Annemehr now:
Yes, V *wanted* to use Harry. Really, really, really badly. V 
believes he has certain advantages by using him. But, he didn't 
*need* him.

Talisman now: 
Sure, he could have used other blood and just put up with having his 
body burnt like Quirrell's if Harry got him in another SS grip.  But 
there was no way he'd do that as long as he had ANY means of getting 
at Harry. He doens't just want a body, he wants a body that's going 
to defeated his fated adversary. And for that, he *needs* Harry's 
blood.  Free will or not, it was eminently predictable that LV would 
go for Harry's blood.   
> 
> Annemehr wrote:
> But then he needs one very particular person: his father. Imagine 
if a bit of soft tissue had been required ("EAR of the Father?"  
Voldemort screeched. "How am I supposed to get EAR of the Father 
> NOW?") Shades of William "Bootstraps" Turner, there.
> 
> Talisman replied in part: 
> He had been planning his LV role for some years by that time, and  
may already have known he'd never need more than Daddy's bones.   
Otherwise he would have canned something.

Annemehr now:
Talisman, that was supposed to be funny. That potion was a piece of 
ancient magic and included a piece of his father. I just thought it 
was lucky for V that it was a piece that lasts. -- You actually think
he would have canned something? :-P

Talisman now:
Of course it WAS funny.  That doesn't mean you weren't considering 
the "what if" part.  The canning part is supposed to be funny, too.  
My sense of humor must be getting awfully dry.  Must be all the DUST 
in here.  But that doesn't mean I'd put a little cold-packing past 
him.  (What DOES Snape have in all those jars?)

> Then Talisman wrote: 
> <snip> (He had already insured that LV got his limb-chopping  
servant back, and soon fixed it so he got Harry's (gleam) blood, as 
well.)
> 
> Annemehr replied:
> See, I can see the possibility here. <snip> but I don't yet see 
that DD *alone* chose and brought about this one *particular* course 
of events. Wouldn't sending Harry  to the graveyard be too much of a 
risk? How did he not nearly lose  him right there?

(Talisman now: Let me interject that DD is not "alone," he has 
plenty of helpers.  Also, although DD instigates actions, he usually 
then co-opts the predictable reactions of others to reach his ends.  
Therefore, he doesn't just sit down and choose a "particular" course 
of action.  He works with what is there.) 
> 
> Talisman replied to that: 
> I think there was as much protection at the graveyard as DD has 
had in place any of the times he has pitted Harry against LV.
> 
> 1) I don't think LV is referring to Snape as the one who "has left 
me forever," I do think it highly likely that Snape is there, under 
a hood;

Annemehr:
As to that, I don't know. What protection could Snape have been? 
Could Snape have assured the wands would connect? Harry was nearly 
AKed!

Talisman now:
If the wands hadn't connected, Snape could have done exactly what DD 
did in the OoP Atrium.  Remember LV pointed his wand at Harry and 
shouted "Avada Kedavra" there, too. 

It seems obvious from both the Graveyard and the Atrium incidents 
that 1) AK is by no means instantaneous, 2) calling it 
an "unblockable" curse is rather an overstatement, 3) it takes 
enough time for the green beam of light to travel to its target to 
allow enchanted statues to throw themselves in the path. 

 So, for one thing, there were plenty of enchant-able gravestones 
around in GoF.  In fact, there was one Harry had just stepped out 
from that could have popped up if the beam got past the half-way 
mark. Obviously Snape [or any other helper] isn't going to blow his 
cover if he doesn't need to.   

Talisman then:
> 2) No one, not even DD, has said that _Priori Incantatum_ was   
responsible for :

> a) H and LV rising into the air and gliding over to a place free 
of   graves (GoF 663);

Annemehr:
Yes, that always did seem weird.

Talisman then:
> b) Phoenix song that gives H hope and strength;

Annemehr:
No, that I think *is* the wand connection. I think Priori Incantatum 
is only one result of the wand connection, and this is another.

Talisman now: 
There is no canon for that, and some against it (see Phoenix 
feathers riff, below). The assumption is rather weak and leaves the 
source of the song--at best--ambiguous.   

Talisman then:
> c) the "thousand" beam dome-web/light-cage that separates H/LV 
from the DE's (663-64);

Annemehr:
All right, that is debatable. It's not as odd as floating away from 
the graves, though. 

Talisman now:
I think it's very debatable and quite odd.  Priori Incantatum has to 
do with brother wands not wanting to fight each other, it has 
nothing to do with protecting you from unrelated wands or even a 
punch in the nose from a third party.    

Talisman then:
> d) the voice, " almost as though a friend were speaking in his 
ear"  that advises H (664); 

Annemehr:
It's not a voice. It's the phoenix song, which was the sound he 
connected to DD and it was *almost* as though a friend was speaking 
in his ear. Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart, and 
strikes fear into the evil. And when Harry answered, he answered the 
*music.*

Talisman now: 
That's quite poetic, but Harry didn't answer, he followed advice.

He responded to something that sounds a lot like telepathy to me.  A 
song that gives hope is one thing, an internal voice that sounds 
like Dumbledore and gives good, specific advice is another.

Fawkes didn't sing any advice to Harry in CoS--in fact, anything 
Fawkes tried to communicate to Harry he did by physical action 
(dropping things on his head, holding out his tail, etc.)so the 
solid inference is that his feather didn't sing advice, either. 

Talisman then:
> e) and, it's one thing to see a victim regurgitated, but what was  
with all the advice from the shadow/echos? Lily knew about the  
portkey? James saying "when" to go?
> 
> When Sirius asks, and DD explains the "effect," he only speaks of  
the connection/spell regurgitation (GoF 697). If you think 
everything is explained by the effect, you are choosing to assume 
much more that I would, and ignoring the other evidence.

Annemehr now:
The Priori Incantatem effect is the important thing to DD. And, he 
was speaking in general about the effect of forcing brother wands to 
duel. Presumably, the effect would differ somewhat if brother 
Unicorn-hair wands connected. 

Talisman now:
There is no canon at all as to whether different cores give 
different results.  But, as above, the lack of acknowledgement by 
DD, the logic of Priori Incantatum, and comparison to CoS are better 
evidence for the proposition that Harry was protected by more than 
Phoenix feathers.

Also, just as JKR instructed us in the use of portkeys at the 
beginning of GoF, she took care to introduce us to the "reverse 
spell," _Prior Incantato_at the TWT.  I do not think the early use 
of the _Prior Incantato_ spell was gratuitous. 

Notwithstanding the distinction between intentionally working the 
spell on another wand or the automatic effect between brother wands, 
as far as I am concerned, Priori Incantatum--also referred to as the 
*Reverse SPELL Effect*-- is just that, i.e. if  brother wands are 
forced to duel, you automatically get the EFFECT of the REVERSE 
SPELL.  Not the effect of the spell plus amazing added bonus 
features. 

That's why JKR 1) gives us the intro to the spell, 2) gives us the 
subtitle "reverse spell effect."  This allows us to see that more 
was going on in the graveyard.  

Annemehr:
How do the "echoes" know what's going on?  Presumably like photos or 
paintings do, although it *is* hard to see how they would recognize 
a portkey. Unless they were always in the wand and heard V talking 
about it. :-P

Talisman now:
There is a fair amount of :-P in the scene, but, I think, plenty of 
evidence of protections.

You also have to join the Graveyard Scene to the rest of the book.  
If you take all the evidence in GoF that DD planned for the 
Graveyard Scene and was totally on to Fake!Moody, it negates the 
possibility that he didn't have protections in place.

> Annemehr wrote:
> One last question. In GoF, ch. 36, when Harry is telling 
everything  that happened in the graveyard to DD and Sirius, we 
read : "The  wands connected?" [Sirius] said, looking from Harry to  
Dumbledore. "Why?" 
> Harry looked up at Dumbledore again, on whose face there was an  
arrested look.   "*Priori incantatem,*" he muttered. 
> 
> Dumbledore appears to have forgotten all about priori incantatem  
until  that moment <snip>

Talisman replied: 
> 1) I don't think "arrested" means surprised. Recall that we've 
just seen DD recover from his momentary "gleam." My dictionaries 
suggest such synonyms as "checked" or "restrained movement." [...] I 
think an arrested face is a restrained face, a face where expression 
has been checked or controlled. It is a poker face. 
> 
> DD shoots H a knowing look and when Sirius asks if Priori 
Incantatum  means the "reverse spell effect," DD says "Exactly." He 
doesn't say "Great Merlin's Beard, that must be it!"

Annemehr now:
A poker face is a blank face. To me, the arrested look was when DD 
stopped to think. It's as if he'd just thought of a new implication 
of something and went within himself to consider it. He *muttered* 
the words "Priori incantatem" as if he'd just remembered about it, 
and was muttering to himself. And after all, one thing he never 
could have planned on is V and Harry shooting spells right at each 
other's wands so that the beams could connect.
> 
Talisman now:
You say blank, I say restrained, it really amounts to the same 
thing.  It's your interpretation as to why the face was blank that's 
at issue between us.  Everyone is always muttering--spells, 
commentaries, and other non-surprised statements-- in HP, so I 
wouldn't go too far with that.   And, DD then shoots "an invisible 
beam of understanding" to Harry, not a look of curiosity or wonder. 
And, says "exactly," etc.  I may not think DD was all that 
surprised, but I'm willing to accept that DD wasn't counting on 
Priori Incantatum for Harry's protection. He had a lot of other help 
in place. <g> <snip>
> 
> Annemehr wrote: 
> Anyway, I believe DD is up to something. I know we've been told 
only  a fraction of the truth. But, I'll need a lot of persuading if 
I'm  going to believe he's orchestrated *everything* since he heard 
that danged prophecy! 
> 
> Talisman replied: 
> My dear, Harry (and Neville) were added to the plan when the 
first  prophecy came out. The plan is much older than that.

Annemehr ::blinks:: It is? You know that? Huh? ::looks blank::
I always thought DD built that plan around "the one" in the 
prophecy... ...and I *still* don't know what the danged plan *is*!

Talsiman now:
Well I certainly think I see evidence  to support my belief that DD 
was already planning, at least as far back as 1944.  I'm sure that 
wasn't the very beginning, either.

Annemehr
tearing out hair (it rhymes!)

Talisman, leaving you with the thought that hair pulling is a common 
reaction to her posts.  Perhaps marketing a line of Wild Flying Boar 
wigs would prove a lucrative venture.