[HPforGrownups] Patriotism in the WW

[manawydan]

No: HPFGUIDX 83806

Melissa noted that:
> There seems to be something of a lack of patriotism in the Wizarding
World.  The only example I've come across is

There does, doesn't there?

>Seamus' enthusiastic support of the Irish team at the Quidditch World Cup.
There's some awareness that wizards living in >other countries do some
things differently, as in the trouble over Ali Bashir and his flying carpet,
but I'm not seeing any >overt pride in England, simply a sense of "some of
our ways are not the same as some of theirs."  The Ministry of Magic >deals
with the Muggle bureaucracy but seems to feel no particular loyalty to it,
or to the Queen.  We don't see the students >singing God Save the Queen in
the morning, but that may not be significant as there's a great deal that we
don't see them

I suppose that given that the WW doesn't seem to have an equivalent either
to God _or_ the Queen (!) that would take some explaining...

"We Must All Resolutely Comply With Educational Decree No 24" might be a
little ditty that Umbridge would have dreamed up as a school song (though it
has a certain Chinese flavour to it!)

>(disclaimer: I don't think that patriotic people necessarily think their
country is better than other countries, nor do I think >that patriotism is a
bad thing; I just can't think of a better way to phrase this).

I think that what has happened in the WW has meant not that people aren't
patriotic, but that there is very little occasion to _display_ that
patriotism outside of the sporting arena.

There doesn't seem to be any international tension, or for that matter any
inTRAnational tension. Although clearly Scotland isn't an independent
country, that doesn't seem to cause any problems between Scots and English
students. It could be that the levels both of internal control by the MoM
and external interrelations as a result of their agreements with other
Ministries mean that those sorts of disagreements are mediated without being
a source of conflict.

> So, is there patriotism at all in the WW?  Is an individual's first
loyalty to his/her country as against other countries; does >he see
him/herself first as a subject or citizen of his/her country and then as a
wizard/witch?  It's possible that patriotism >matters in the WW, at least
somewhat; the example of Seamus suggests this.  Or is he/she primarily loyal
to the WW?  >The second possibility seems more likely to me because of the
history of wizard persecution by Muggles.  This could be >another reason for
pureblood wizards to dislike the presence of Muggle-born students at
Hogwarts, since a Muggle-born >might have been taught loyalty to England and
certainly wouldn't have been taught loyalty to the Wizarding World.
>Perhaps someday we'll see a Muggle-born student struggling with this
question.  Of course, this doesn't explain Seamus; >perhaps patriotism is an
issue in some countries but not in others.  If that's true, though, there
goes my half-formed theory >about Muggle-borns' possible patriotism being a
reason for purebloods to distrust them.  Am I just overthinking this?
>Ideas? thoughts? smacks with a wet noodle?

Perhaps if we accept that aggressive patriotism and international conflict
are possible in the WW, we next have to wonder about whether wizards have
ever gone to war. A magical war could cause enormous devastation (and of
course be virtually impossible to conceal from Muggledom). Even a violent
disagreement between a few individuals could lead to considerable mayhem.
Perhaps it's a price that the WW have paid as another means of keeping its
existence secret, and that destructive military magic is part of forbidden
lore

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri