Snape and Harry WAS Re: Pensieves objectivity AND: Dumbledore's integrity

[msbeadsley]

No: HPFGUIDX 79689

> "bluesqueak" <pipdowns at e...> wrote: It may have been, but it's 
> partly Harry's problem as well as Snape's. Harry has a rather 
> strong dose of 'people who don't like me must be bad people' <snip> 
> and 'they don't like me because *they're* bad'. <snip> 

Harry's "problem"? <looking politely incredulous>  He perhaps 
thinks 'people who *abuse* me (or who abuse anyone else) must be bad 
people'; BIG difference:  Harry has a sense of justice.  I see no 
evidence that he judges anyone with antipathy toward him as "bad".  
When people were gaping at him in CoS after he demonstrated his 
parseltongue abilities, he didn't decide they were bad.  Nor did he 
decide *he* was bad, although he wondered. I don't think he's been 
that simplistic for a long time, that people not liking him 
meant "bad" on one side or the other.  In GOF, when even Hufflepuffs 
were wearing "Potter Stinks" badges, he didn't decide those dogging 
him were bad.  Liking/not liking is often ephemeral; Ron and Harry 
didn't even like Hermione much early in PS/SS but they certainly do 
now.  Harry knows there's more to it than blame/badness.

<snip> Despite consistent evidence in PS/SS, CoS, PoA, GoF and OOP 
> that Snape cares so deeply for *all* the Hogwarts students that he 
> will fight trolls for them, fight werewolves and (he thinks) 
> escaped murderers for them, charge into the office of a powerful DE 
> for them, and face a Forbidden Forest full of angry centaurs for 
> them. 

Snape cares about wrangling himself an Order of Merlin, and any other 
hero's laurels he can scrape together.  He seems to have a bit of 
that "saving people thing" that Harry has been accused of, only in 
Snape's case, it's overcompensation.  He can't be bothered to adhere 
to even the most basic standards of politeness and social decency, 
especially when it comes to his students; oh yes, he cares "so deeply 
for all the Hogwarts students..."  Snape wants to be *right*, even if 
it gets others killed.  He is so invested in shoring up his deformed 
ego that he doesn't even see anybody else as more than a shadow 
figure around him; he's a legend only in his own mind and that's all 
the applause he's ever going to get.

> And there's all the little protective-of-students side comments, as 
> well. 'Crabbe,loosen your hold a little...' 'We'll be carrying 
> what's left of Finch-Fletchley to the Hospital Wing in a 
> matchbox' 'Snape gripped the back of a chair very hard' [when Ginny 
> has been kidnapped in CoS.]

The first two instances are removed from context which explains then 
far more reasonably:  the comment to Crabbe included a reference to 
avoiding paperwork; the one about the matchbox had far more to do 
with deriding Neville yet again.  And his reaction upon hearing about 
Ginny was, I thought, more of a "Voldemort is here and I'm trying not 
to lose bladder control."

<snip> 
> And it culminates in Sirius's death. If Harry had remembered that 
> Snape was an Order member, Snape could have contacted Sirius for 
> him, safely. Harry subconciously discounts Snape because 'he's 
> nasty to me. I don't trust nasty people.' [not a quote]

I wonder why it didn't occur to Harry to depend on Snape to save 
Sirius, yes, considering that it was only two years ago that Snape 
tried to have Sirius executed (dementor's kiss, an execution of the 
soul if not of the body) even in the face of reasonable doubt that he 
deserved it.  And Sirius is Snape's *other* whipping boy in OoP.
 
<snip>
> Just imagine Voldemort's bargaining power if the DE's had captured 
> the real Sirius in the fight!] 
<snip>

What to do about Sirius as hostage would officially have been up to 
Dumbledore.  Would he have treated with terrorists, with hostage-
takers?  A chilling scenario any way you look at it, and one I think 
Snape would have ensured would come to pass if not for the 
ramifications to the Order, where he is trying, again, pathetically, 
to be a hero to people he has maneuvered into having to tolerate him.

> Snape is a nasty son-of-a-sorceror, and he and Harry don't like 
> each other one little bit.

But Snape set Harry up to despise him (just as if he'd followed the 
rules in Making Enemies for Dummies).  Harry was set up by a history 
he wasn't even on the planet for.

> But when the order comes through that Snape and Harry have to work 
> together, it's Snape who makes-sarcastic-comments-and-soldiers. 
> Harry is the one who obstructs the lessons as much as he can by the 
> passive method of I-haven't-done-my-homework-Sir and the active 
> method of breaking into the pensieve.

Harry is instructed to entrust the sanctity of his dreams, his 
thoughts, and the rest of his mind itself to the person who, second 
only to Voldemort or the Dursleys, has consistently offered him the 
most spite, abuse, and injustice (and at least in the case of 
Voldemort and the Dursleys, they are pretty up front about why).  So 
I'm amazed Harry showed up for lessons at all; in the face of 
Dumbledore's coldness I might have assumed this was DD under Imperio! 
and refused; in any case, I would have sent DD an owl inquiring or 
protesting.  Snape soldiers, yes, largely because he enjoys having 
one more way he can bend Harry over the proverbial footlocker.

I wonder if this failure on Dumbledore's part to predict behavior on 
the part of his staff/student/soldiers, as well as he should, can be 
chalked up to his own ability to see into a person as needed; does he 
forget others (especially Harry) cannot?

> It is Snape who tries as much as he can to be adult about the 
> Occlumency lessons. It is Harry who behaves like the 15 year old he 
> is, shuffling his feet, doing as little as he can, and finally
> breaking the rules so badly that Snape chucks him out. But Harry's 
> reaction to this is 'I don't care'. When he's asked to talk to 
> Snape and ask to be taken back, he doesn't.

What rules?  <I think you're taking the extremist position to bait 
those of us who passed the "ad nauseum" stage in response to Snape 
apologia a long time ago.>  Who said there were rules?  Snape's never 
followed any.  Why should Harry assume there are any? <Yeah, it's 
working.>  Why should Harry ask to be taken back?  At the time he was 
hauled out of the pensieve he was about as close to reaching out to 
Snape as he had ever been; Snape used *that* opportunity to shirk his 
own responsibilities just because something had made him 
uncomfortable, and literally took a shot (fired a projectile) at 
Harry to boot.

<snip> ... the idea that an apology might do wonders is never 
> considered.

Snape has never shown anything but disdain/disgust at "weak" (a soft 
answer turneth away wrath) behavior, so far as Harry (and we) can 
tell; there's no canon (for us in the books or for Harry in his life) 
that an apology to Snape would get him anything but a(nother) blow.  
I'm with him:  he's got enough to dodge.  Donning a target is 
superfluous, even stupid.

<snip>
> The trouble is, that he's now in the middle of a war. And he really 
> has to get it into his head that people who are nice to him (fake!
> Moody, anyone?) are not necessarily on his side; and conversely, 
> those who are nasty to him might be doing their best to keep him 
> alive (Petunia, anyone?)

I think, since hearing BC Jr.'s veritaserum confession, Harry *got* 
that friendly behavior can hide a murderous agenda.  That makes 
sense; your enemy *wants* you to trust, underestimate him.  Why, on 
the other hand, someone "on his side" would be ugly/nasty/hateful is 
a question that needs an answer before any trust is warranted.

And it's interesting:  Dumbledore says repeatedly that he *trusts* 
Severus Snape; nowhere does he say he *likes* him or approves of his 
attitude.  I think DD is referring to "trusting" Snape to act in his 
own enlightened best interests, and DD knows, as no one else does, 
what Snape considers his own best interests.

<snip particularly inflaming jab>
> You can bet it will be all Snape's fault [grin].

No, but he bears much *responsibility*. <cocked eyebrow>