OoP - GUILTY Dumbledore (was Dumbledore's true sorrow motives)

[Talisman]

No: HPFGUIDX 80164

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> Pippin
> --- <giant snip of lenghty discussion> Assuming Dumbledore 
deliberately arranged Sirius's death puts 
> more holes in the plot than it takes out, IMO.

Talisman, having a tea party with Tibbles, Snowy, Mr. Paws and 
Tufty, asks if they would mind a small interruption, and being 
indulged in the matter, explains:

Well, pippin_999, that  rather depends on your understanding of the 
plot structures and how they are unfolding.

If you are convinced that DD is just a kindly but deteriorating old 
wizard, doing his best amid events that are out of his control, then 
his having an active role in Sirius's death is doubtless a jarring 
proposition.

(By the way, Rowling still considers DD "a very wise man" who is 
preparing Harry for what is to come, and who "has had to step back 
from Harry to teach him some of life's hard lessons." Albert Hall 
interview, June 2003.  Sounds like MAGIC DISHWASHER to me, though if 
I recall correctly, you don't like that theory either. Certainly 
doesn`t sound like poor befuddled DD.)

If you believe, as I do, that DD is firmly in control of events up 
to and including Book 5, then his role in Sirius's death is 
consistent with the continuing pattern.

One of the difficulties with this subject is that it is impractible 
to review DD's entire history in a post.  I have a great many pages 
of analysis on this topic, but whether I condense them into 
digestible posts, and whether I want to put up with the aggravation 
of Troll attacks, is another matter.

Nonetheless, to the extent that you articulated cognizable points 
contra, I'll respond.

I don't know what you mean by "new morality," but your personal rule 
for lying doesn't seem to be in play in the HP series.

As to the "socks" lie, how venial it was or what DD may have gained 
by  telling it remains to be seen.  Since we don't know the truth, 
we can't judge the impact of the lie.  If he saw Harry's head on a 
platter, for instance . . .

That said, most readers understood that I was avoiding a mini-
treatise on the subject.  I was hardly hanging my hat on the SS 
example, but was using it to show that the issue of DD's veracity 
was introduced and highlighted in the first book.  There are many 
old threads exploring DD's ongoing prevarications, and I commend you 
to the archives for them.

Your post keeps trying to defend DD's morality, as if I were calling 
him evil.  He is certainly responsible for a great many things, 
including  Sirius's death.  But though I was playfully dramatic in 
the original post, I have repeatedly said that DD does everything  
he does for the very best reasons.  See, e.g. #75836. 

You may impose your own judgment on these issues, but I have no 
interest in debating your personal ideas regarding morality.

The HP saga is not "pure myth," there are no gods in it.  The world 
of magic invokes the Romantic literary Mode.   Myth may inform it, 
but it is displaced.  Therefore DD, as the most god-like character, 
is a displaced god.  And to quote Omar Khayyam, he "moves and mates 
and slays" like one.  

There are quite a few paragraphs in your post that never crystallize 
to a point.  Whatever you are trying to say, I'll note that:

1) What Harry childishly accepts as "his due" is irrelevant to the 
question of  what DD is doing.

2) No one I know is confused by the idea that Harry and LV have a 
special, reciprocal, form of mental/emotional communication. There 
is nothing in any post of mine that doesn't acknowledge this, and I 
don't recall ever seeing  a post by anyone else denying the thought-
sharing phenomenon.  What then, is your point?

I do think that if DD told Harry in chapter one, "Hey, LV can use 
this power to show you things that aren't true and will probably try 
to lure you into the Dept. of Mysteries," Harry might well have 
declined the bait.
 
There wouldn't have been any danger per se if LV came visiting and 
found Harry thinking, "LV is a tricky bastard and I'm not falling 
for it."

Harry didn't have to know about the prophecy to know this. 

 (As an aside it's still hard to see how knowing the whole prophecy 
would really help LV.  He`s already trying his best to kill Harry, 
and he's cottoned on to the fact that Harry keeps getting away.  He 
knows about the Lily-blood thing, and he knows  he couldn`t stand 
being in Harry because he hates experiencing Harry`s  loving 
emotions.  If he's still overlooking the value of love, how is being 
told there's "a power he knows not of" going to help him? )

The danger to telling Harry is that DD wants Harry to be tricked.

As usual DD has co-opted LV's plans, and is using them to his own 
ends.

You can see for yourself as the plot unfolds, and JKR brings to your 
attention repeatedly, that Harry's communication with LV 
signifiantly increases after his Occlumency lessons begin, and both 
he and others see this as a result of those lessons.  (See. e.g. 
542, 553-554.) 

Moreover, Harry's Dept.of Mysteries vision has stalled out, he can't 
make progress in it--until he has some break-throughs sessions 
DURING Occlumency lessons.(537,593)

Dumbledore himself reveals that the Occlumency lessons were enabling 
LV to access Harry's mind: " . . .nothing could have been more 
dangerous than to OPEN YOU MIND FURTHER to Voldemort while in my 
presence." (833) 

Occlumency was all about getting Harry back on track to go to the 
Dept. of Mysteries within DD's timeline (before the end of term).

There are old threads on this issue, too, but I'll repeat that the 
prophecy-orb was nothing but LV bait.

DD couldn't care less when he hears it has been destroyed, because 
by that time his goals have been achieved.

DD keeps the orb because he knows LV wants to hear it.  He also 
knows LV is still lying low and won't come to the M.O.M. unless 
there is no other choice.  His first choice is to use Harry.   And 
DD knows LV will use his special bond with Harry to lure Harry there.

Lets take a look at this for a moment:

All OoP members who do guard duty at the Dept. of Mysteries are put 
at risk (as well as those that go to fight the DE's at the end).

Three OoP guards pay the price:

1) Arthur Weasley is savaged and almost dies;

2) Sturgis Podmore is now in Azkaban , for trying to break in under 
an Imperious curse;

3) Broderick Bode was put under the Imperious, driven insane by 
touching the orb, and finally murdered by Devil's Snare to keep him 
from talking.

You can add these to DD's collateral damage (bodies are scattered 
throughout the books), all for protecting a superfluous (except as 
bait) orb.

In spite of the great cost spent on its protection, when DD hears 
that the orb was smashed, he is wholly unconcerned.  He says  it 
was "merely the record" (840) and proceeds to run the little 
Trelawny thought-video in his pensieve. 

DD's plan DOES require Harry's unhappiness and controlled ignorance 
in many ways; starting with his dark childhood at the Dursley's and 
moving through each terrifying confrontation with LV.

DD is not doing this for sadistic pleasure, he is doing it to save 
the world.  But he is doing it.

Again, I don't know why you are arguing about whether Harry is 
willing to "shoulder his role,"  no one, including me, has suggested 
otherwise, so I'll just move on.

Regarding your points about Sirius, except for DD's little plan to 
save the world, Sirius did not have to be confined to Grimmauld 
place. (And, I won't even make you listen to how DD chose not to 
clear Sirius's name.)

All the other OoP members are running missions in disguise or under 
invisibility cloaks.  Sirius could have taken his turn in these 
missions.  No one can recognize you under an invisibility cloak. But 
DD doesn't want to risk losing Sirius until the fullness of time, 
when all the elements are there and his goal can be accomplished.   

The confrontation between Harry and LV has to take place in DD's 
sight and in close proximity to Sirius's death.

You are totally wrong about Harry's love for his parents negating  
Sirius's need to die in order to activate Weapon!Harry.

Harry never knew his parents.  They remain largely abstract notions 
to him. However fond Harry is about the *idea* of his parents, we 
see throughout OoP that this does not stop LV from "awake[ning] 
inside him. (828).

It is not until after Sirius's death that Harry is Voldemort-proof.

Sirius is "the *one* person whom [Harry} would go to any lengths to 
rescue" (831) and likewise, Harry is the person "Sirius cared most 
about in the world." (831)

(Someday, depending on  the condition of my patience, I'll tell you 
how DD engineered that, too.)

As I note in my original post, DD realizes that LV is about to 
possess Harry in the Atrium, this is what he has been waiting for.  
DD tells Harry to stay where he is while LV disappears and (does 
whatever one does to prepare for possession).  It is the first time 
DD shows fear, because this is  the proof of the pudding.  It's show-
time.  Has DD's plan succeeded?  (815)

LV is expelled the moment Harry thinks of Sirius and  longs to be 
with his beloved godfather.  As soon as Harry's heart "fills with 
emotion."  (816)  As he feels a love for Sirius that is greater than 
his fear of death. 

And DD knows all of this immediately. He planned for this to 
happen.   He immediately changes his demeanor toward Harry.  DD now 
puts in face just inches from Harry's, looks Harry in the eye and 
begins talking to him.

Back in his office, DD-- who has avoided Harry all year-- won't LET 
Harry leave his presence, and won't STOP speaking to him!  And the 
fact that he does tell Harry about the Prophecy, demonstrates that 
this is not temporary.  He's not telling Harry and then hoping that 
Harry will manage to master Occlumency sometime next year--before LV 
visits his brain again.  He's telling Harry because Harry no longer 
needs to learn Occlumency (at least for LV, though personally I 
think he may want to control other people's mind-tapping, too.)

Everything has changed because of Sirius's death.  You have to be 
actively "not looking" to fail to see this.

And, as much as I love Snape and believe him to be central to the 
plot, it's not all about him.  It's about Harry's power vis-à-vis LV.

There is no doubt Snape has become Harry's psychological scapegoat, 
but this started before Sirius's death (see, e.g. first 7 lines OoP 
577). The additional hate is helpful to the Snape/Harry plot.  And, 
I do agree that in OoP Harry's hatred has become irrational.  But, I 
don't see any evidence that Harry and Snape were in danger of 
becoming "premature friends," without Sirius's death.  

Sure, it is all part of Rowling's plot.  It is a book.  But to say 
that things happen by coincidence or are just clumsily inserted 
because Rowling finds it convenient is to call the book rubbish.  
See my #80011.  
I wonder why you are reading it , at all.

As to the need to abandon Harry at the Dursley's, it is DD (through 
JKR) who sets the 10 year lower limit for LV's return.  You may 
see "10 years" as a code for "next week," I do not.  You may find it 
mere "coincidence" that in 10 years Harry will be off to Hogwarts --
spending most of his years away from the blood-safe house.  But you 
know my opinion of analysis by coincidence.  I'm quite sure JKR 
meant 10 years.

Nor is there any question that DD had other ways to keep Harry safe 
from the DE's prior to LV's return.  DD has never said that he is 
not a match for any DE.

Perhaps I will post my TBAY, after all.  D.O.L.L.A.R.: Dumbledore 
Obviously Lies Like A Rug. I'll go over the whole it-was-necessary-
to protect-you blood-pact hooey there. Look for it in the near 
future.

Maybe someday I'll even tell you how the SS was LV bait, too.  "Pick 
it up when you go to get Harry, Hagrid. That way I can lure LV to 
Hogwarts to meet unshielded Harry at the first available 
opportunity. We know LV will come for it, but we won't destroy it 
until after we've prepared Harry and let him have a little 
adventure."

It goes on in every book.

I believe DD used the same "invisible rope" spell  he was throwing 
around at the DE's to immobolize Sirius, so that Sirius could not 
dodge or return fire.  After Bella stunned Sirius, DD pulled him 
through the veil for a clean, painless death  (as refined in my # 
75836).  If you want to think Bella's spell was fatal, it's okay 
with me.  DD still engineered it.

Of course Bella thinks it's all about her, she wants the glory and 
she's not DD's confidant.

However you see it, all fighting but Bella/Sirius ended almost 
immediately upon DD's appearance.  DD went directly to a position by 
the dais and remained there for the entire time we see him in the 
chamber.

It is ridiculous to believe that the only reason DD didn't bind 
Bella (and bind her first, as she was the only active one) was that  
DD was so busy with the other, "subdued" DE's .  

Once you see that DD requires Sirius's death for his development of 
Harry, you can't believe he was just hoping Bella would take care of 
things.  He was actively involved.  

  You can't buy into the belief that DD couldn't control Bella as 
she fled the death-chamber (he doesn't want too) but can 
effortlessly handle both Bella and LV as soon as he gets to the 
Atrium. 

 And again,  it makes no sense to say that DD was so busy with the 
no-longer-fighting DE's that his first concern wouldn't be for 
Chosen!Harry, gone off to battle Bella alone.  DD postponed showing 
himself in the Atrium  because he required LV's appearance to 
achieve the plan for which all the sacrifices had been made.

I do think DD orchestrated events, and that Snape, as his lieutenant 
was aware of the plan.  You "create" a lot of story to explain a 
timeline for Snape/DD that presumes ignorance, but it's all your own 
invention.

Both DD and Snape were expecting LV to bait Harry.  They have 
their "special" OoP methods of communication and there isn't any 
reason they wouldn't be in contact at Harry's first alarm. There is 
just no integrity in asserting that DD  "coincidently" showed up  
and stood right by the dais with perfect timing to see Sirius 
dispatched, and then hung back and "coincidently" didn't appear in 
the Atrium until LV appeared and all was set for the final test.

To explain all this by fabricating text or calling it a coincidence 
is just bad, or wishful, reading.

DD's behavior in OoP, not the least of which involves his behavior 
in the death-chamber and subsequent "explanation" of events, would 
create a lot of holes in the plot YOU imagine.  I'd say it creates 
enough holes to scrape that plot altogether. 

Talisman, who wonders if Tibbles would like another crumpet?




























  






  

  














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