Legilimency, Occlumency, Snape, Harry

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 80188

 
> Laura:
> 
> A couple of questions (I'm not trying to be argumentative here, 
just 
> clarifying your ideas in my mind):  it sounds like your 
[bboy_mn's] first kind of 
> Legilimency, the super-intuitive kind, might be something also 
found 
> in the muggle world.  There are, after all, people who do seem to 
> have an extraordinary ability to sense the feelings (if not 
precise 
> thoughts) of others.  Now whether you would call this "magic" in 
the 
> JKR sense or whether it is something else is another question.  
Maybe 
> some muggles have a bit of magic in them that they don't recognize 
as 
> such.  :-)
> 
> But the other kind of Legilimency, the spell kind, seems rather 
> pointless.  If all you can see is a bunch of jumbled images, I'm 
not 
> sure what you can learn from using the charm.  I'd think you'd 
need 
> both kinds to make sense of what you see as a result of the 
charm.  
> If you don't have the intuitive ability, why bother to learn the 
> spell?  Just to be able to do it?<snip>
> 
> When DD interrogated Kreachur about Sirius's whereabouts, he must 
> have used the second kind of Legilimency.  Just getting a sense of 
> Kreachur's emotions wouldn't have given DD the specific 
information 
> he needed.  Right?
> 
> I still wonder why JKR would have used the same terminology for 
two 
> rather different sets of skills.  She's usually very precise in 
her 
> use of words.

Annemehr:
I'm jumping in here because I like this thread...

I think these are actually all one skill, used to different degrees. 
I do also think it goes beyond the best muggle intuition.  There is 
a reason, IMO, why the instances of legilimency appear so different.

The times when Voldemort, Dumbledore, and Snape seem to be able 
to "read minds" are when they are being secretive about it.  True, 
Voldemort says something like "Don't lie.  Voldemort always knows," 
but even he isn't saying how.  And Harry has had several moments of 
thinking that DD or Snape were reading his mind when he was looking 
into their eyes.  I believe these are examples of using legilimency 
in a very gentle, subtle way just to glean a sense of either 
truthfulness or deceit, or maybe courage or fear -- whatever is on 
the "surface" of the subject's mind, without making it obvious 
what's happening.  It is also, perhaps, partly limited in its 
efficacy by being done without a wand.

On the other hand, in the lessons Snape was putting Harry through, 
he was giving the spell full power.  He used his full force; he used 
his wand; the concentration was evident on his face and he was 
muttering.  This took Snape beyond Harry's immediate thoughts and 
feelings and allowed him to rifle through his memories.  Such a use 
of legilimency is, of course, completely obvious to the subject.  It 
would not be something Snape or Dumbledore would have done to Harry 
before in the normal course of events, so we never see it until the 
lessons.

I don't think this "full powered" legilimency is pointless.  I don't 
think it only brings up jumbled images.  Snape seems to have been 
bringing up memories that were painful, yes, even the one of kissing 
Cho because she was crying so much.  I think that is at least a hint 
that Snape was able to control the spell; he was trying to give 
Harry an incentive to succeed at Occlumency.  After all, if these 
were truly random images, we would have seen Harry doing things like 
riding the Hogwarts Express, vegetating in History of Magic, eating 
lunch, catching the Snitch, whatever.

Even if the mental images *are* necessarily jumbled like that, which 
I doubt, I still can see Voldemort trying it on Harry just to see 
what he could learn.  Suppose he saw him entering a secret passage 
in the basement of Honeydukes or the Shrieking Shack, for example?

Annemehr