OoP - GUILTY Dumbledore (was Dumbledore's true sorrow motives)

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 80226

> Nicholas:
>> In conclusion, I just won't believe that those "twinkling" blue 
>>eyes and half-moon spectacles are hiding anything but love for 
>>Harry and  hope for the Wizarding World.<snip>
> 
> Kneasy
> I'm sorry, but given the situation this 'love'  is not a positive 
>thing, it's a pair of handcuffs.  Hope is no  good either; <snip>If 
>Harry has to go so that V  is defeated, then Harry will go. He'll 
>probably suscribe to the fund for
> the statue, but he'll have done his job. 
> 
>   
> Nicholas:
> > DD loves Harry! 
> > " 'I cared about you too much. I cared more for your happiness 
than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my 
plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the 
plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we 
> > fools who love to act. 
> 
> 
> Kneasy:
> Impassioned and interesting.
> In essence it states that Harry comes first in everything; above 
the truth, the plan (note that there *is* a plan),  above any other 
lives. This is either patronising bulls***t or a calculated 
lie.<snip>

Annemehr:
Not necessarily!

Under Talisman's complete (and compelling) Guilty!Dumbledore theory 
in which DD succeeded in steering everything including Sirius' 
death, yes, this is a lie to further the plan.

On the other hand, it could be perfectly true.  Maybe DD *did* care 
too much for Harry's immediate happiness, with the consequence that 
the night's events ended in the unintended death of Sirius.  But 
notice that this is in the *past tense* -- if DD did allow his love 
for Harry to get in the way of the plan, he's learned his lesson.

The plan's back on, if it was ever off.

By the way, one of the things that makes Talisman's reading so 
compelling is DD's neglect to explain *any* part of this plan except 
the "blood protection at Privet Drive" part to Harry (and I'm 
eagerly awaiting Talisman's promised contradiction of that).  What 
would they all have been doing all year if Harry had been told of 
the prophecy at age 11, or 14?  Harry still would not have learned 
Occlumency from Snape, so Voldemort would have been able to read the 
prophecy inside Harry's own head (doubtful) or trick him into going 
to the MoM.  What does Dumbledore have planned for the defeat of 
Voldemort?  The *only* inkling we have is "the power that the Dark 
Lord knows not" -- Harry himself is still completely in the dark, is 
so traumatised that he can't even think about this yet, and 
meanwhile time grows short.  This suggests that the plan *depends* 
upon keeping Harry ignorant, which supports Talisman's thesis.


<snip>
> Nicholas:
> > Harry's needs and preferences are to play the hero, to go after 
Big V. I see nothing sinister or "cold-hearted" (and neither does 
Harry going by the same quote from SS pg. 302 you use above) with DD 
> > helping Harry to be Harry whether it's Weapon!Harry or Chosen!
Harry. 
> 
> Kneasy:
> Nothing sinister in allowing, encouraging an 11 year old untrained
> student wizard to face the Voldy monster!?[...]You don't allow 
someone you love to  take risks of that magnitude, a level of risk 
that Harry can't really comprehend - unless there is a plan that 
requires it.

Annemehr:
But you forget (it seems), the Voldy monster is *after* Harry.  Plan 
or no plan, this boy had better be on a fast track to learning how 
to face Voldemort, because he's going to.  Even if DD thought he 
could find a way to defeat LV without Harry, he'd still train up 
Harry to face his would-be murderer, for his own sake as well as for 
the chance of him helping the cause, because that confrontation is 
inevitable.


>  Kneasy:
> DD doesn't want Harry to have his eyes open until DD is ready and 
he thinks Harry is ready. Does Harry even know enough to ask the 
*right* questions as opposed to the ones that occur to  him at the 
moment? How about "How are we going to win?" "What's my 
function?" "When in your judgement, will I be ready?" "Do I have the 
necessary skills for what I must do?"


Annemehr:
Exactly.  It's part of what makes me lean toward the Guilty!
Dumbledore interpretation.

If, very near the beginning of book six, Dumbledore tells 
Harry, "Now that you have had a chance to begin to come to terms 
with the prophecy, I am going to tell you what you must do," *then* 
I will be able to believe the face-value reading of the end of OoP.  
However, if Harry is left to puzzle out and react to events on his 
own as usual, I am with Talisman 100%.  (Remember, in GoF, what did 
Dumbledore do to help Harry through the tournament?  He left it all 
to "Moody" except when Harry sought him out!  Dumbledore does a very 
good job of hiding this love of his.) Meanwhile, I am pretty much 
with Talisman anyway, and agreeing mostly with Kneasy here even 
though a month ago I never thought I would!

Annemehr
ever increasingly a fan of OoP