Legilimency, Occlumency, Snape, Harry

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 80257

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" <liliana at w...> 
wrote:
> Annemehr wrote (previously):
> <snip>
> The times when Voldemort, Dumbledore, and Snape seem to be able 
> to "read minds" are when they are being secretive about it.[...] I 
believe these are examples of using legilimency 
> in a very gentle, subtle way just to glean a sense of either 
> truthfulness or deceit, or maybe courage or fear -- whatever is on 
> the "surface" of the subject's mind, without making it obvious 
> what's happening.[...]
> 
> Lilian here:
> 
> Legilimency is presented to us in OOtP as the WW equivalent of a 
>RW lie detector. It is used to detect whether you lie by 
>discovering the memory/emotion that comes with it.

Annemehr:

The best description I was able to find is in ch. 24, "Occlumency," 
Snape speaking:

"It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are 
able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their 
victims and to interpret their findings correctly.  The Dark Lord, 
for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him.  
Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those 
feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter 
falsehoods in his presence without detection."

Snape only speaks of detecting lies in particular when he is using 
the particular example of Voldemort.

On the other hand, there is this passage in GoF, ch. 30, "The 
Pensieve:"

'"Professor," Harry said at last, "do you think he's getting 
stronger?"

"Voldemort?" said Dumbledore, looking at Harry over the Pensieve.  
It was the characteristic, piercing look Dumbledore had given him on 
other occasions, and always made Harry feel as though Dumbledore 
were seeing right through him in a way that even Moody's magical eye 
could not. ...'

Now, Dumbledore cannot be looking for truth or lies here, as Harry 
has only asked him a question.  My best guess is that he's trying to 
decide just how much to tell Harry and is trolling Harry's head for 
any clues that might help him.  That's why I don't think the subtle 
form of legilimency is only good for detecting lies.


> Lilian:
> 
> I think that the painful memories were in fact brought up by 
>Harry's continual angry/angst status. 

Annemehr:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I guess; I still think 
Snape was able to guide Harry's mind into painful memories.  I do 
take your point though -- Harry's angst may very well have made it 
very easy for Snape.

A new question -- what do you think of this?

"The usual rules do not seem to apply with you, Potter.  The curse 
that failed to kill you seems to have forged some kind of connection 
between you and the Dark lord.  The evidence suggests that at times, 
when your mind is most relaxed and vulnerable -- when you are 
asleep, for instance -- you are sharing the Dark Lord's thoughts and 
emotions. [...]  OoP ch. 24, Snape speaking.

But then, just after Harry's first attempt at resisting Snape's 
legilimens spell, Snape says "Clear your mind, Potter. Let go of all 
emotion."

Does this seem like a bit of a contradiction?  A clear mind and a 
relaxed mind do not seem like opposites to me.  Perhaps clearing 
your mind is the normal way to begin Occlumency, but the usual rules 
do not seem to apply to Harry and Voldemort.  Time and distance and 
eye contact are nothing in their case, so why not a clear mind 
also?  Harry is not a legilimens, yet Voldemort's emotions and 
sometimes the scenery connected with them come to him unbidden, so 
can it even be said that Voldemort is even using his own legilimency 
powers on Harry?

The scar connection seems to be a completely different thing than 
legilimency, so why hope to block it with Occlumency?  Did 
Dumbledore only *hope* it was worth a try or did he actually know it 
would be successful in blocking Voldemort if Harry could learn it?  
Did he substitute legilimency for "scar-o-vision" in the Occlumency 
lessons in the same way that Lupin substituted a boggart for a 
dementor in Patronus lessons?

This whole legilimency episode is confusing and full of 
contradictions. It's not quite the same as the scar connection it's 
meant to fight.  It seems to make things worse (but maybe only 
before they would have gotten better?).  Snape contradicts 
Dumbledore in telling Harry not to call the Dark Lord "Voldemort."  
There is a breakthrough vision of the MoM door, uncalled for by 
Snape (which genuinely seems to surprise him and serves as a further 
hint that he *is* causing Harry's mind to be more open to 
Voldemort).  The fact that Harry never practiced emptying his mind 
is frustrating because we'd like to have seen what would have 
happened if he had -- after all, he seemed to have been having some 
genuine success during the actual lessons.

And yet, in the end, it mattered not that Harry could not close his 
mind.  It was his heart that saved him.

So then, what of Occlumency and Legilimency?

Annemehr