Mistaken identity - long

[koinonia02]

No: HPFGUIDX 80562

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" <liliana at w...> 
Message 80534 wrote:

> Lately, I have seen posts pondering on the haircolor of the 
> Weasley's, the importance of Ginny to the coming books, whether
> all 
> Weasley children are actually Arthur & Molly's and Lily's
> friends at 
> Hogwarts.  
> 
> Well, I already had an idea about this all, a theory is the better 
> word rather, which I will present here after having finished it on 
a 
> top note (looks apprehensive at yellow flags standing in line to 
> pounch theory).

"K":
Well I'm not really waving that yellow flag with a great amount of 
gusto nor am I anxious to punch holes. However, I will comment on a 
few things <G>.

Lilian:

 Well, it is 
> with the pensieve scene of Bertha Jorkins, this theory more or 
less 
> started.
> 
> GOF: ,He put a hex on me, professor Perkamentus, I was only 
teasing 
> him. All I said that I had seen him kissing Florence behind the 
> greenhouses last Thursday'

"K":
I think it's important to remember the age of Bertha at the time she 
was snooping as we will see later.

GoF/Ch 30 Instantly, a figure rose out of it, a plump, scowling girl 
of about sixteen...

Lilian:

 Since OotP we know that of MWPP and Snape, the 
> last three are the ones who are rather trigger-happy, or to speak 
in 
> magical terms, hexing-happy.

"K":
I admit I use to believe it was Snape or Sirius kissing Florence. 
One of the reasons was because of the 'hexing-happy' stuff. I'm 
still unsure of who it is but I do believe Florence is going to be 
important to the story.

GoF/Ch 27 "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than 
half the kids in seventh year...

It is also in OoP where we hear about Snape knowing all those 
curses. The hexing just seems to fit in with Snape. Of course now we 
know James was a bit 'hexing-happy' too.

Lilian:

 Of the three, it will not have been 
> James as it was pointed by both Snape's worst memory and Sirius 
> evidence later, James was already in love with Lily. No snogging 
> Florence by James.

"K":
James did have his eye on Lily but she wasn't paying him much 
attention. Maybe James was the one and he had to make sure Lily 
didn't hear about it if he ever wanted to have a chance with her.
 

Lilian:

 Considering Sirius' behaviour at the time, he
> was a 
> rather carefree type, who was not going to be bothered if he was 
seen 
> kissing a girl.

"K":
Not unless this girl belonged to someone else.


Lilian:
 
> Bertha saw Snape kissing Florence behind the greenhouse, shortly 
> after `Snape's worst memory'.

"K":
This is where the ages of those involved come into play. During *The 
Pensieve* Bertha is about sixteen.

GoF/Ch 19 "Listen, I knew Bertha Jorkins," said Sirius grimly. "She 
was at Hogwarts when I was, a few years above your dad and me."

When Bertha was sixteen, James/Sirius/Snape would have been about 
thirteen. Possibly fourteen. The Pensieve would have happened before 
The Prank. The guys are in year six (?) at the time of the Prank and 
Bertha is no longer at Hogwarts. She is several years ahead of them. 

Lilian:

 JKR said about Snape and 
> love:
> 
> "Q: Will Snape ever fall in love?
> A: (laughs) Who would want Snape to be in love with them? <snips 
rest 
> of quote for later reference>"
> 
> Funny answer when you come to think of it. Seems a bit as if 
someone 
> wanting Snape to be in love is more on JKR's mind than Snape
> being in 
> love himself. Curious (oh, and BTW, do you notice that JKR 
> said `them'. Not her – not him either, but that's
> another discussion 
> entirely – but THEM. Plural, two persons at least). Very curious 
> indeed.

"K":
I don't think it is strange that she said 'them'. Who in the world 
would want Snape to be in love with them. That could also just be 
one person. However, you most certainly could take that to mean more 
than one person and I'm going to keep that in mind. 

Lilian:
 
> Well, what did Bertha see? Snape kissing a red-haired girl.

"K":
Of course canon doesn't tell us it's a red-haired girl but that 
doesn't mean Florence doesn't have red hair.

Lilian Message 80535 Mistaken identity - part two

PS/SS pg 81: `
No need to ask you who you are. My father told me all 
the Weasleys have red hair, freckles and more children than they can 
afford.'

"K":
I would be surprised if we don't meet other Weasley family members 
later on.

Lilian Message 80536  Mistaken identity - part three

Apart from the current Weasley speculation, speculation has also 
been 
made whether Snape has a kid, and if that kid is at school or will 
come in the near future. My idea is, that if there is such a kid, 
JKR 
would have let Snape given some clue to its existence.

"K":

Now this is where the story gets interesting. As you said, if there 
is a child, surely JKR would have given some clues. Maybe she did.  

Post 77832 greatlit2003

This post makes a strong case for Snape and the 'stringy and pallid' 
Slytherin kid. I personally believe there is more of a chance of 
that child being the son of Snape than of Ginny being his daughter. 
What I do like about both theories is the idea that there is so much 
more to Snape and his actions. I've been wanting to comment on 
the 'stringy and pallid' theory forever but haven't found the time. 
I do believe some very good points are made in that post.

Lilian:

2) Deeper meaning; Snape (as a Malfoy family member –see my post 
79062) has ordered Dobby to keep Harry from Hogwarts. Dobby has, 
obviously, not succeeded so Snape now tries himself.

"K":
Even if Snape is related to Lucius, can he give orders to Dobby? I 
don't remember.

Lilian:

3) Well, what actually happens? Harry and Ron do not attend the 
feast, or more particular at that very moment: the Sorting Ceremony. 
COS pg 65: `The Sorting Ceremony is over,' said Professor 
McGonagall. 
But this also means that Snape is not present at the sorting either. 

I believe that (3) is the actual meaning of that scene, showing us 
in 
a very sly and undercover way that Snape does not attend the 
sorting. 
And why would he do that? Because his kid will be sorted. His kid, 
who does not know him. Who is being sorted that we know of? Ginny 
Weasley and Colin Creevey.

"K":
I believe the reason Snape isn't at the soring ceremony is only 
because he is busy looking for Harry and Ron. If anything, wouldn't 
Snape 'want' to see his child being sorted? 

Lilian:

It has been speculated here that 
Arthur has personal experience with the Dark Mark showing above his 
home. It's that and Florence was visiting at the moment and 
therefore 
killed, or Arthur had to come to his sister's house, with the Dark 
Mark hovering above it. Either way, Florence is dead.
Snape, being a spy, is in no position to take care of Ginny. If he 
is 
ever outed, he is dead and Ginny too.

 After Voldemorts' downfall, 
that situation is not different as he, like Dumbledore and Hagrid, 
expects that one day Voldemort will be back. Next to that, Snape 
might distrust himself as father. He is no fool, after all. 

"K"
Now I'm going to agree with a couple of things here. I do believe 
that Snape, like Dumbledore, knows that Voldemort is not gone for 
good. Also, if Snape had a child then that boy or girl would be in 
danger. Could this not be why Snape left the DE's? He will do what 
it takes to see that his child lives. But this is where there is 
more evidence that said child could be 'stringy and pallid' instead 
of Ginny. Ginny does not seem to be able to see a thestral. 

OoP/Ch 33 "Oh, more of them will come," said Ginny confidently, who 
like Ron was squinting in quite the wrong direction, apparently 
under the impression that she was looking at the horses.

OoP/Ch 34 Ron, Hermione, and Ginny, however, were still standing 
motionless on the spot, open mouthed and staring. 

"How're we supposed to get on?" said Ron faintly "When we can't see 
the things?"

One could argue that Ginny wasn't there when Florence was killed and 
maybe one could say she was too young. It just seems that Ginny 
would have been with Florence and would be able to see a thestral.  

I'm also not sure if Ginny would be of the right age. Snape turned 
spy before the downfall of Voldemort. If Snape turned back to 
Dumbledore because of his family, then the child would probably be 
around the same age as Harry and not Ginny. I will admit I'm not up 
to date on the birthdays for the kids. I'm not sure if we even know 
when Ginny was born. 

Lilian:

In addition to that: how do Arthur and Molly treat other children 
who 
stay with them but are not family. Very affectionate and caring, 
Molly especially.

"K"
I do believe Molly and Arthur are very loving people and could of 
course love a child that wasn't there. Maybe even more so if that 
child belonged to a deceased family member.

Lilian:

And is there additional evidence that it is Ginny who is the 
daughter 
of Snape and Florence? In canon:

OotP pg 149: `I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh Ron, how 
wonderful! A prefect! That's everyone in the family!'. `What are 
Fred 
and I, next-door neighbours?' said George indignantly'

"K":
Ginny isn't old enough to be a prefect yet. That's probably why she 
isn't mentioned. As far as the twins, I just think Molly figures 
neither Fred nor George have any hope of ever being a prefect 
considering all their antics at school.

Lilian:

OotP pg 160: Ron's dead body – Bill's body – Mr Weasley -Dead twins –
Dead Percy – Dead Harry 


In the first scene Fred, George and Ginny are excluded, in the 
second 
scene Charlie and Ginny. Both times: Ginny. Surface explanations 
like 
Ginny cannot yet be a prefect and hey, Charlie was left out as well 
are IMO red herrings. The significance is that Ginny is not included 
TWICE.

"K":
But Molly does see Harry and he isn't her child. It's a love thing. 
Molly loves Harry but she also loves Ginny. If it revolved around 
Molly only seeing her family she wouldn't see Harry. Now as to why 
Molly doesn't see Ginny or Charlie I don't know and I guess your 
idea is as good as any other I've seen.

As for eating with the Order, I just don't think Snape would enjoy 
the company of any of them. Why put yourself in a miserable 
situation if you don't have to do so. 

Lilian:
And Molly is concerned about how Snape is being treated:

OotP pg 457: `Snape?' said Harry blankly. `Professor Snape, dear. In 
the kitchen. He'd like a word.' 

Surface explanation: Molly is just insisting on Harry showing 
respect. But below that
. Molly is the foster-mother of Snape's 
daughter.

"K"
I guess I see this as another instance where someone is trying to 
get Harry to show some respect for Professor Snape. Dumbledore has 
done the same thing.

Lilian:

IMO, it is Ginny's character growth shown in OOtP which is a 
clue in itself. They come from her mother, Florence. 

"K":
I won't get into this but count me as one who didn't like this 
sudden and great growth. Yeah, I know there have been other clues 
but I still don't like it.

Lilian:

It does also explain Dumbledore's trust in Snape. Snape will never 
betray the side his daughter is with, even if he has little feelings 
for her. And Dumbledore's patience with the man. Taking him in a 
fatherly way to the feast in COS, Snape's not wanting Lupin to teach 
in POA (no werewolf at the school where my kid is! –apart from 
Snape's other reasons-). Realising that it is not easy for any 
person, even Snape, to give up its child, distance itself from it.

"K":
I can agree with all the above except I'm not sold that it is Ginny. 
Actually, I do love the idea that Dumbledore has patience with Snape 
because he knows what Snape is going through. He knows the sacrifice 
Snape has made. I like it because that would mean there is so much 
more to Snape. There is something or someone that drives him.

Lilian:

Also the quote about the relation `that is at the heart of it all' 
and that the information about Hogwarts' spouses is rather 
restricted. To quote a fictional detective (I believe Lord Peter 
Wimsey – by Dorothy L. Sayers -): If you look at all evidence 
separately, they sort of seem to melt away. Together it becomes 
suspicious. Very suspicious.'

"K":

~~Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of 
restricted - you'll find out why....~~

McGonagall, Dumbledore, and Snape. My bet is on one of those three, 
if not all. 
 
Lilian:

Well.
This is it.
This is what I believe and I'm sticking to it.

"K":

I will say I thoroughly enjoyed your post. Though I don't believe it 
is Ginny and Snape, I will admit anything is possible with JKR.

"K"