Mistaken Identity (slight TBAY refs) long

[laylalast]

No: HPFGUIDX 80771

eloiseherisson at a... wrote:
> A very interesting theory, Lilian, and definite TBAY material.
> But you know what? You've got to give your vessel a snazzy name 
and try to 
> recruit some crew and throw in some obscure acronyms.  And don't 
forget the 
> fish!  (CARP* are best)
>
Lilian:

Finally, time to answer your post!
Thanks for the advice, I immediately started working on the acronym. 
I forgot about the obscure though. Will MISTAKEN GIRLS do?

Mistaken
Identity
Subsequently
Triggers an
Aweful
Knot of
Events,
Next
Ginny's
Identity
Revealed as
Love-child of
Severus

> Eloise:
> I'm now going to throw a spanner in the works, but don't worry 
about that. 
> I'm sure you'll throw it back.

Lilian:
Rolls up sleeves and stands ready to catch.

> Eloise:
> Lilian:
> >- This is what the title of the post refers to and this is why I 
> >believe that Lily has red hair. No family relation with the 
Weasleys, 
> >no family relation with Dumbledore. A case of mistaken identity. 
> >Mistaken identity by Bertha, which sets off a course of 
incidents. 
> >Mistaken identity as a plot twist by JKR. -
> 
> ~Eloise:
> See, I find this element of the argument a bit circular. You 
believe, if I 
> understand correctly, that Lily has red hair because Florence has. 
But where 
> does canon state that Florence has red hair?
> 
> I'm not *quite* certain what you mean, actually. Do you meant you 
have come 
> to the conclusion that Lily's hair is red because that way she 
could have been 
> mistaken for the red-haired Florence (in which case it might be 
expressed that 
> Florence must have red hair because Lily's is)? Or do you mean 
that the 
> *literary* reason for Lily having red hair is in order for the 
mistaken identity 
> thing to take place?
> 

Lilian:
The last one, *literary* reason. I think that JKR gave Lily red hair 
not because JKR likes red hair but so that the confusion about who 
Snape was now actually kissing could take place. Red hair, all in 
all, is not frequently seen and is thus rather easily recognised. 
But if there are two girls with red hair.....
No, canon does not have it that Florence has red hair, that is what 
I came up with it when I thought of the red hair as a clue to a 
mistaken identity. Then I thought that that would mean that there 
was another girl with red hair, and as I already believed that what 
Bertha saw is a clue to the Prank, I (not JKR as of yet) theorized 
that Florence has red hair. And THEN I started thinking: who else do 
we know having red hair? The Weasley family.

I hope I have explained my train of thought better.

<snip>
> Lilian (quoting interview):
> 
> >"Q: Will Snape ever fall in love?
> >A: (laughs) Who would want Snape to be in love with them? 
<snips rest> 

> Eloise: 
> Not curious in the least to my mind. It's just normal, rather 
sloppy informal 
> English usage. 
<snip>

Lilian:
I admitted in another reply that being Dutch tripped me over this. 
Thank heavens it does not wash out the theory! Just one piece of 
canon less. Although it was putting all those JKR quotes together 
which made me mighty suspicious at first.
     
>Eloise, quoting me:
> Lilian: 
> >But, but, that would mean that Snape got himself involved with a 
> >WEASLEY, I can hear you all think. Yes, he did. Sorry, for the 
LOLLIPOPS-ers 
> >among us, but Snape himself ruled Lily out in OotP as 
> >she was `a filthy, little mud-blood' (don't like it anymore than 
you 
> >do, but he said so).   
> 
> 
> Eloise: 
> Mmm. You really think so? That he ruled her out? Is it not a case 
of 
> "Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much?". I have to admit 
that I never did 
> volunteer for service aboard the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS, but OoP made 
me think that 
> perhaps I was wrong <doffs cap in direction of Captain Tabouli>.
>

Lilian:
I'd better say it's a few things added together. 
1) At the time Snape was in Slytherin, which are not known for their 
love of 'mudbloods';
2) Snape called her a 'you know what' (was the final straw for me);
3) Snape has truly been a DE at first;
4) But that's rather my personal opinion, namely that I don't 
dislike LOLLIPOPS but thought Lily-Snape too obvious. 

I like having to dig deep for the true meaning to something. To 
throw in an example from OOtP: During Occlumency lessons Harry 
remembers the Dementors closing in on him - his father and mother 
waving at him from the mirror of Erised - something else. When 
Harry's mind clears and he can see Snape again, Snape is described 
as 'rather pale'. And off I go digging! Surface meaning: Snape sees 
James - nope, Snape sees James every time he sees Harry so why go 
pale now? Digging deeper: LOLLIPOPS - maybe, maybe, but can I dig 
deeper? What can Snape see in a flash? A red-haired woman! He is 
suddenly reminded of Florence, at a moment that he is not prepared - 
and becomes rather pale of shock.

<snips Dumbledore's trusting Snape, while adding that she does not 
think either that DD is infallible>

> Eloise:
>As for Ginny being his child?
> Well, I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

Lilian:
Don't you even think of it. My theory is not for sale! (LOL)

> Eloise:
 His reaction when Ginny is taken into 
> the Chamber doesn't tally. Before he knows who it is that has been 
taken, he 
> grips the back of a chair very hard. But after he knows, his only 
recorded 
> reactions are to belittle Lockhart. There is no hint whatsoever 
that he himself 
> tries to do anything to secure her safety. You are right: he would 
have not to 
> care much about her. But then, why distance himself from her 
sorting, or refuse 
> to eat with her?

Lilian:
Ah, yes. That scene bothered me too, reason why I did not add it 
(yet) to my theory. But yesterday illumination struck me (still 
recovering from shock <g>). 
Remember, Snape was and will be again, and IMO has continued all the 
time to be, a SPY. And a good one at that. Occlumency alone does not 
make Snape, or anyone else for that matter, a good spy. It is also 
the ability to think fast and keep your act together. Snape can do 
this as is proven in OOtP when Harry gives him the coded message in 
front of Umbridge.
If you look at the scene from this perspective, Snape gripping a 
chair becomes downright suspicious. It's a display of emotion which 
you would not expect from a spy, let alone Snape.
So Snape needs, for a short moment, to brace himself for what is to 
come. And then is his usual nasty self again, which is displayed 
directly afterwards: tormenting Lockhart for his (Lockhart's) 
arrogance. Other explanations are valid as well, but this is simply 
mine. 

We have no evidence whatsoever of what Snape did after that scene. 
As Head of Slytherin he at least was going to inform those students 
that they would go home the following morning. After that, well? As 
Snape pointed out earlier to Lockhart, he, as Potions master, is the 
first one to deal with the Mandrake Restorative Draught. Perhaps he 
was dealing with the Draught. When all came back from the Chamber of 
Secrets, Ginny is send off to the Hospital wing, where Madam Pomfrey 
is just giving out Mandrake juice. I wonder whether Ginny was also 
send there because Snape would be there as well, so he could see for 
himself that she was still alive?
Maybe Snape did try something, we just never got to see it. Perhaps 
he even thought (oh horror!) that he could best leave it to Harry, 
who as parselmouth could get in the Chamber whereas Snape could not.

As too Snape's distancing himself from Ginny by not attending the 
sorting and eating afterwards. Well, I see it no so much as 
distancing but more as being troubled by memories of the past. You 
might say that it is not in line with what I said just now about his 
necessary calmness as spy, but that was a crisis-situation. Not so, 
however, at the beginning of the year. Harry and Ron's act just gave 
him a good excuse to stay away from the feast. Catching them gave 
Snape a good excuse to torment Harry, and Ron for a change, with 
possible expulsion. IMO, Snape never really expected them to be 
expelled, but he delighted in giving them a rough time. 

> Eloise:
> 
> Lilian:
> >And Dumbledore's patience with the man. Taking him in a 
> >fatherly way to the feast in COS, Snape's not wanting Lupin to 
teach 
> >in POA (no werewolf at the school where my kid is! â€"apart from 
> >Snape's other reasons-). Realising that it is not easy for any 
> >person, even Snape, to give up its child, distance itself from it.
>     
> 
> Eloise: 
> Dumbledore *is* patient. And he is trusting. And if you look for 
it there is 
> a lot of evidence of father/surrogate son interaction between 
Dumbldedore and 
> Snape. Snape is the wayward son, the prodigal brought back into 
the fold. He 
> is the difficult, challenging child. Dumbledore is the caring 
father figure 
> that OoP implies Snape lacked. They have a relationship of mutual 
trust, 
> dependence and profound disagreement. I don't think we need to 
bring Ginny in to 
> explain their relationship.

Lilian:

It´s that father/surrogate son interaction which I do not find 
satisfactory, even dangereous should that be the relation between 
them. Just leaves me to expect Snape to rebel against it and go over 
to LV again. After OOtP I think that Dumbledore taught Snape 
Occlumency so he could start to spy, and found out some of the 
disturbing facts of Snapes youth. Dumbledore is left with guilty 
feelings for never interfering at the time Snape was at Hogwarts, 
and (partly because of that) tries to spare Harry as far as he can. 
Leaving Harry not with the Dursleys is, unfortunately, not possible 
because of the blood protection.

And I don't want to offend you by being too nitpickish but I brought 
Dumbledore's trust in as another explanation for Ginny being Snape's 
child, not the other way around.
All in all, Dumbledore's trust is because of a multiple of reasons, 
a kid at the good side just one of the stronger ones.

And  matters like these are differences of how one looks at the HP 
stories. Ending the Mistaken Identity with Ginny as Snape´s child is 
something that kind of happened to me after I started thinking of 
Florence as a Weasley. An ideal place after all, to hide your child, 
is it not? In the line of: where do you hide a tree? In a forest. 
Where do you hide a shell? On the beach. Where do you hide a red-
haired child? In a whole family of red-haired people. Ron´s 
brothers: too old to connect it to Snape´s switching sides. Ron 
himself: too close to Harry to make me believe it. So that left me 
with Ginny, after which I started to look for canon which might 
contain clues.  And what happened then is what you replied to with 
this post.

To add a few final remarks to this: when pondering on Ginny as 
Snape´s child I concluded that that would be, to me, an interesting 
enough plot twist (well, not anymore now...<g>). For example: Snape 
might sacrifice himself for her, giving her the same protection 
Harry had from his mother (imagines gasps of horrified readers, 
exclaiming: What! Are they blood-related!). Not if it is someone who 
we hardly have seen yet, like the stringy pallid kid who could see 
the thestrals in OOtP. And I always felt that if Snape has had 
anything to do with love, there had to be ties to his Hogwarts past, 
particularly MWPP. This just makes it work for me.

Oh, before I forget. It´s really that annoying reply of JKR in the 
interview with Jeremy Paxman, that set me off on this track. Saying 
(in reply to a question about unusual pairings) that there is a 
relationship that is at the heart of it all, but it has only been 
skirted by fans... That´s been a downright challenge to me. No rest 
until I finally came up with something new. 

I admit that I may start having too high expectations, caused by 
digging deeper and deeper into HP through this forum. It´s a risk we 
all run.

Lilian, off to give her vessel a snazzy name and additional work on  
the theory after all these posts. 
BTW, it's probably silly ol' me, but what am I supposed to do with 
CARP's? Can't I bring a killer whale? I suddenly realised that after 
MISTAKEN GIRLS and previous posts relating Snape to the Malfoys and 
Agnes in St. Mungo's, Snape is by now in a towering rage and out for 
my blood. I'll look under my bed this evening.... 

If there are people who would like come aboard MISTAKEN GIRLS, 
please send me an email!