Snape-Harry Detente & Dumbledore (was: Worst is yet to come, etc.)

[msbeadsley]

No: HPFGUIDX 80960

Me then:
<snip>
> > "I'm trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, 
> > sir."

Matt:
<snip> 
> Two things about the sentence struck me when I read it and might 
> have struck Snape when he heard it, as rather unlike the old 
> Harry. First, Harry almost always forgets to address his teachers 
> with honorifics when he is interrupted in the heat of the moment. 
> Especially Snape.  Here, however, Harry remembers to say "sir."  
<snip>
> Harry has enough distance from his emotions that he is not only 
> able to remember to address Snape respectfully, but also to come up 
> with a *subtle* put down of Malfoy.

Me now:
So can we draw a parallel between how Snape perceives Harry's use 
of "sir" and the way McGonagall instructs Harry that incidents in his 
DADA class have nothing to do with truth? (Are these both examples of 
Harry needing to learn to control himself, learn a little subtlety? 
Become a cold, premeditating, mealymouthed *git* like Draco?)

Matt:
> The whole idea of "trying to decide" what curse to deploy in such a 
> situation is, if I may essentialize for a moment, not very 
> Gryffindor. <snip>

Me now, snarkily:
(Essentialize? Whuzzat? One o' dem verbs by committee? <ducking>)

Matt:
> Gryffindors react; Slytherins plan.
> So, why is Snape's reaction subdued? <snip> Perhaps, in hearing 
> this, Snape has an inkling, conscious or subconscious, of the idea 
> that Harry *has* learned something from him.

Me now:
And Snape is trying to encourage, to nurture, Harry's inner 
Slytherin. Lovely.

Matt:
> I think that this scene is the first, hopeful little hint that Harry
> and Snape are beginning, despite their mutual animosity, to 
> understand one another, or at least to think that they do. Not a 
> reconciliation, but perhaps detente.

Me now:
You know...I actually saw Harry's response as less respectful than a 
hot-headed answer would have been; he just looked Snape right in the 
eye and said, in effect, very deliberately: yeah, I was, what are you 
gonna do about it? He was just out-there defiant.

Me then: 
> > Dumbledore could very well be feeling extremely hoisted 
> > on that particular petard.

Matt:
> Since I'm responding to this post, the nitpicker in me cannot resist
> pointing out that one is not hoisted (or, in Shakespeare's now 
> archaic usage, "hoist") "on" a petard, but rather "with" it.  
> The "petard" was the military engineer's charge (i.e., explosive) 
> used for breaching walls, and the expression colorfully refers to 
> what happened if the engineer employed too short a fuse, and was 
> unable to get out of range before the charge exploded.  

Me now:
<singing> You say po~tay~to and I say po~tah~to...I knew that. ;-) 
(My housemate grumbles and gives me that same lecture (!) each time I 
say "hoisted on" (or "hoisted by") and I keep doing it ("hoisted 
upon" is my favorite); usage drives the language, so consider me 
driving with my own style, down the median, or whatever. While I tend 
to be a purist, I branch out now and then and take a walk on the wild 
disco side. ^--^)

Me then:
> > I ... think Dumbledore ... knows that Harry went into 
> > the Pensieve and he knows what Harry saw there. How 
> > else would he chalk up the end of Occlumency lessons to 
> > Snape's feelings about James ... ?
 
Matt:
> Not an impossible reading, but isn't it just as likely that 
> Dumbledore already attributes most of Snape's nastiness toward 
> Harry to Snape's feelings about James? <snip>

Me now:
This Occlumency stuff was *so* crucial to the cause that Dumbledore 
gave the task of teaching it to Harry to the teacher well known for 
liking him least (an understatement) and never bothered to check in 
on its progress? Never addressed Snape's feelings about Harry at all? 
(So much for MAGIC DISHWASHER! It's back to paper plates!)

Matt:
> It seems to me that if Snape had told DD about the Pensieve 
> incident DD would be *more* likely to blame Harry than Snape.

Me now:
Why? Last year (book time), given a prime opportunity, Dumbledore's 
reaction to Harry's first trip into the Pensieve was, "I quite 
understand," and "Curiosity is not a sin,"--the *strongest* 
admonition he offered was, "But we should exercise caution with our 
curiosity...yes, indeed" (and here he is thinking of Bertha Jorkins, 
as indicated by the fact that she appears then). Does Dumbledore 
assume, even knowing how way Harry was (or wasn't, more precisely) 
raised, that Harry just somehow "got" that uninvited Pensieve-diving 
is a no-no? (Old argument; feel free to ignore.)

Matt:
> I also sort of think, given what we know about the Snape-Harry-
> Dumbledore dynamic, that Snape would be embarrassed to
> tell DD exactly what happened.  DD does not even necessarily know
> about the particular incident with James/Sirius, so broaching that
> would be one embarrassment.

Me now:
The "particular incident" shed a lot of light on James/Sirius for us 
of the readership; if Dumbledore doesn't know about it, or things 
very much like it (therefore robbing it of its sting, IMO), how does 
he then know that Snape's hatred of Harry is about James? What then 
is Dumbledore then referring to as "...some wounds run too deep for 
the healing?"

Are you saying Snape would be embarrassed about his hissy fit with 
the exploding jar, about James' historical hexing of him, or both? 
(Are you saying that, with the world at stake, Snape is still 
protecting himself from *embarrassment*? Snape was a Death Eater. At 
some point he had to recant pretty convincingly to Dumbledore to gain 
his trust; what's left to be embarrassed about?)

Matt:
<snip>
> it seems more likely to me that he would have just told DD that 
> Harry didn't apply himself and was impossible to work with -- close 
> enough to the truth, from Snape's perspective.

Me now:
Harry says, referring to the end of his Occlumency lessons with 
Snape, "He threw me out of his office!" and Dumbledore says, "I am 
aware of it." It doesn't sound to me like Dumbledore bought 
any "didn't apply himself/impossible to work with" spiel Snape gave 
him about Harry. Anyway, somehow I am of the mind that Snape doesn't 
dissemble with Dumbledore; I'd think that his trust would be precious 
to Snape and make him pretty careful, more than just "close enough," 
with the truth. Not to mention the whole Legilimens-to-Legilimens 
dynamic I envision there. 

Sandy aka "msbeadsley" (humming: in da mornin', in da evenin', ain't 
we got fun...)