Dumbledore's BADD ANGST (was: MAGIC DISHWASHER TBAY)

[boyd_smythe]

No: HPFGUIDX 81068

The party was in full swing, with firewhiskeys all around the hulking 
monstrosity, as the tiny boat came into view. The group turned as
they heard its tiny engine backfiring, nearly dying, then returning 
valiantly to the fight.

"Ahoy, there, MDDT! Remnant here! May I tie my vessel to join y'all 
for a few minutes?"

Taking their questioning looks for agreement, the man unsteadily 
dismounted the craft, which proved to be an old, leaky rowboat that 
appeared to have been cobbled together from odd leftover parts of old 
vessels.

"I've just come from the GARBAGE SCOW on my new boat. Isn't she a 
beaut? Anyway, I wanted to discuss that," and he pointed to the 
once-regal MAGIC DISHWASHER. As someone offered him a firewhiskey in 
silence, he laughed, "oh no, I try not to play with canon after 
drinking. After all, I am here to use yours against you as I defend
my worthy ship, the BADD ANGST. All's fair, right?"

And then he told his tale.

****************************************

First, bravo MDDT! Please repeat the type of performance in your 
recent post as often as you like. In the opinion of this Remnant,
this new (Tom is quite convincing) theory should certainly be 
enshrined in Fantastic posts.

Second, it is unfortunately wrong. Not entirely, mind you, but in its 
central thesis: Dumbledore's primary target is not to change the 
WW-although he'd like that, too-but to defeat LV, as we've been told 
numerous times. Now, please forgive me if I don't do this 100% by the 
established norms, but I'll try. On to the canonical discussion!

> MDDT: In previous posts [see 
http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#md, post 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 and post 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40044 ], the
Magic 
Dishwasher Defence Team has presented the list with the idea that 
things may not be as they seem. Characters may be acting according to 
an agenda that Harry does not understand. Especially, they may 
deliberately mislead Harry (and by implication, the reader). <

OOP enshrines this aspect of MD as canon; outstanding 
prediction/analysis by the MDDT!


> MDDT: Harry is being misled. He thinks that Voldemort is the real 
threat to the WW. Voldemort will destroy the Wizarding World as we 
know it. And he's wrong.
>snip<
> [R]emember that Hitler did *not* want to destroy Germany. That bit 
was a slight mistake. What Hitler actually wanted was a 
Thousand-Year-Reich, which would have power over the non-Aryan world. 
And he would have power over the Reich.
>snip<
> Voldemort fits right in, really, doesn't he? Voldemort isn't an 
opponent of the WW ethos - he's its logical result. And this is the 
society that Harry is supposed to risk his life to preserve? <

Yes, but I don't think that the concept of LV wanting to truly
destroy the WW ever had many adherents. It seemed obvious that LV 
wanted absolute, everlasting power. But next we'll reach our first 
point of disagreement. (Apologies in advance for the heavy snippage-I 
didn't want to snip much, but the length was growing crazy.)


> MDDT: No. As Kneasey so rightly points out, Dumbledore has an 
agenda.
> **Canon for what Dumbledore wants**
> `They wanted Dumbledore fer Minister, o'course, but he'd never
leave 
Hogwarts' [Hagrid, PS/SS Ch. 5 p.51 ]
>snip<
> `Father's always said Dumbledore's the worst thing that happened to 
this place. He loves muggle-borns.' [Draco, CoS Ch. 12 p.166]
> `Take him away an' the Muggle-borns won' stand a chance!' [Hagrid 
about Dumbledore, CoS, Ch. 14 p.195]
>snip<
> `But then Dumbledore came to Hogwarts and he was sympathetic.' [to 
Lupin the werewolf attending Hogwarts] [Lupin, PoA, Ch. 18, p.258]
>snip<
> `Trusts people, he does. Give's `em second chances 
 tha's what
sets 
him apart from other Heads, see. He'll accept anyone at Hogwarts, 
s'long as they've got the talent. Knows people can turn out OK even
if 
their families weren' 
 well 
 all that respectable.'
[Hagrid, GoF Ch. 
24 p.395]
> `your talk of closer international wizarding links, of rebuilding 
old ties, of forgetting old differences 
' [Karkaroff, GoF Ch.28, 
p.487]
> `I read the muggle newspapers, unlike most of my Ministry friends 
[Dumbledore, GoF Ch. 30 p.522]
> `that champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus 
Dumbledore' [Voldemort, GoF Ch. 33]
> `let you hire werewolves, or keep Hagrid, or decide what to teach 
your students, without reference to the Ministry' [Fudge, GoF, Ch. 36 
P.615]
>snip<
> `The statue we destroyed tonight told a lie. We wizards have 
mistreated and abused our fellows for too long, and we are now
reaping our reward.' [Dumbledore, OOP, Ch.37 p. 735] <

Now here's the meat of our disagreement. While you read that 
wonderfully compiled canon as support that Dumbledore's *main* goal
is to change society, I do not. I read it simply to say that he has a 
different moral code regarding "others" that he does not force others 
to conform to. This is a subtle but important point: I do not see 
changing society as his *main* goal. He simply has his own set of 
views that he does not try to impose on the WW at large. To do so 
would be against his/JKR's value of personal choice. Allow me to use 
your own canon against you (possibly bad form, but you did leave it 
right there on the battlefield).

'I read the muggle newspapers, unlike most of my Ministry friends 
[Dumbledore, GoF Ch. 30 p.522]
`Trusts people, he does. Give's `em second chances 
 tha's what
sets him apart from other Heads, see. He'll accept anyone at
Hogwarts, s'long as they've got the talent. Knows people can turn out 
OK even if their families weren' 
 well 
 all that
respectable.'
[Hagrid, GoF Ch. 24 p.395]

Does he say that he has tried to make or even convince others to read 
muggle newspapers? Or that he has attempted to convince the 
headmasters of other schools to conform to his beliefs? No. Here's 
more.

`The statue we destroyed tonight told a lie. We wizards have 
mistreated and abused our fellows for too long, and we are now
reaping our reward.' [Dumbledore, OOP, Ch.37 p. 735]

Note that he does *not* say that he has repeatedly warned the WW of 
this, or that he has tried to use his influence at the MoM to change 
it. He has apparently actually *done* nothing that we have ever seen 
in canon to change everyone else's beliefs. With one exception:

`Father's always said Dumbledore's the worst thing that happened to 
this place. He loves muggle-borns.' [Draco, CoS Ch. 12 p.166]

Yes, Dumbledore exposes his students to his beliefs by 'hir[ing] 
werewolves, or keep Hagrid, or decide what to teach your students, 
without reference to the Ministry.' Of course, Hogwarts is his
school. He is the headmaster and may hire and teach in accordance
with his own set of beliefs, right? Whether parents send their 
children to his school is their choice. There's always Durmstrang and 
Beauxbaton if they have a problem with that. So is he imposing his 
beliefs on others here? No. He respects others' boundaries. Haven't
we 
had that drilled into us again and again?

Boundaries. Why not tell Harry about Lupin or Sirius or Snape?
Because the secrets they have are theirs, not his to give. Why not 
help Harry more at school with bullies and taunting? Because those
are Harry's problems until Harry asks for help. Why not go run the 
MoM, as '[t]hey wanted Dumbledore fer Minister
?' Because then
he'd 
have to insert himself into others' business via lawmaking and 
enforcing. (Plus, he apparently likes Hogwarts, teaching, students,
et 
al.) But above everything else, Dumbledore is an embodiment of
respect 
for others' Boundaries.

Now who in the WW has the least respect for boundaries? Voldemort. 
What is so bad about the Unforgivables? They horribly infringe on 
others' boundaries. So what is the one thing that Dumbledore will
rise up and fight against? LV and the AK-ing DEs. How do we know that 
LV is his one true target? To whit:

'The only one against whom I intend to work is Lord Voldemort. If you 
are against him, then we remain, Cornelius, on the same side.' 
[Dumbledore to Fudge, GoF Ch. 36 P. 615]

Does he say, 'Cornelius, you should be against all who are racist?' 
No. Does he say, 'Fudge, you're often unfair to muggles, mudbloods
and non-humans, so you're my enemy.' No. He says the common enemy is 
Voldemort. Period.

Occam's Razor has been much used of late, so I hope it's still sharp 
enough for my purposes, but I'd like to posit that the simplest
answer is, in this case, still true. Dumbledore is plotting LV's 
downfall. If the MoM supports him, so much the better.


Now a few follow-ups.



> MDDT: Will Dumbledore be satisfied if his Order of the Phoenix 
defeats Tom Riddle? No. He tells us that.
> `We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom

 
Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit - ` [OOP, Ch. 
36, p.718] <

My view, this is just saying that DD needs to destroy Riddle's soul
so he never comes back again. And I'm considering yellow flags for 
each of the following.

> MDDT: `
 it will merely take someone else who is prepared to
fight 
what seems a losing battle next time - and if [the endless succession 
of Dark lords are] delayed again and again, why, [they] may never 
return to power.' [Original quote in PS/SS Ch. 17, p.216, comments in 
square brackets are my additions] <
> But in twenty years time, there will likely be another Dark Lord, 
willing to use 'any means to achieve their ends' [PS/SS Ch. 7 p.88] <

You've changed these way past their initial intent. Nearly a yellow 
flag.

> MDDT: Well, even the muggle born Hermione doesn't announce that she 
hopes not to get put in Slytherin. [PS/SS Ch. 6 p.79-80] Perhaps the 
books she's read don't suggest anything is wrong with Slytherin
House? Perhaps the people she's been asking don't think anything is 
wrong with Slytherin? <

No canon here at all.


> MDDT: The symbol of the Order is a Phoenix. Why?

Why, you ask? Well, canon doesn't state the origins of the name, but
I like the group's courage or courageous fight against LV will never 
die. Also, it sounds cool. Frankly, Dumbledore's Army had little to
do with DD or an army, so OOP could have just been named after
Fawkes, for all we know.


> MDDT: [A minor note: the plot of CoS revolves around attacks on 
muggleborns because of their blood. Dumbledore stands by and lets it 
happen in the hope that the resulting battle can destroy the menace
of the basilisk for once and all. No wonder JKR said that CoS nearly 
gives it all away] <

A possibility, I'll grant. But we don't actually know. Perhaps it 
shows that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor <groan> or that Fawkes and 
the Sorting Hat are sentient, or that LV started as just another 
Hogwarts student, or that LV injected some of his power into Harry
and now they even look alike. But I do appreciate your tying the 
theory in with other puzzles.

**********************************

And, his attack complete, he shouted, "In conclusion, nicely done, 
MDDT! A round of butterbeers for all of you! But I fear we must agree 
to disagree on this day.

"By the way, Boundary-Respecting!Dumbledore might worry constantly 
over whether others will do the right thing without ever saying or 
doing anything. That's why I've called my proud vessel BADD ANGST!

Boundaries
Always
Drive
Dumbledore's
Actions
Now
Go
Stop
Tom!"

-Remnant