Spying Game Philosophy - The Phoenix must die!

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 81114

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" <jwcpgh at y...> wrote:
> Laura:
> 
> Well, I must say, Kneasy, I expected a more violent reaction from you 
> about Pip's theory, since she agrees with your "DD is up to 
> something" line of thought and then turns it around to make him the 
> savior of the WW, if not all of humanity.  But people are always full 
> of surprises, aren't they?  


Kneasy:
Violence? From me? You must be confusing me with  someone else.
Just because I think DD is up to  something doesn't necessarily
make him a baddy. But by the same token, DD may *want* every-
thing to end up sweetness and light, but  is it possible? He may be
forced by events to take a less happy path. I  think this is the way
it's going. As Pip states, the WW is in a moral mess. Root and 
branch changes are needed, there will be resistance from 
entrenched interests (like the Ministry) to radical change. DD will
probably be the sole individual who can bring about what changes
are possible. Only he will have the power.


Laura: 
> If I understand your argument right, I don't think it's sophistry 
> you're accusing ESE!Pip (that would be Ever So Eloquent :-))of.   
> It's not the argumentation with which you're taking issue, it's the 
> premise. 


Kneasy:
Sophistry is the life and soul of the site. We all do it as  soon as we
stray  from strict canon. It is not a fault, it is exercising  the
imagination. Pip's  premise is as valid as anyone's and more valid
than most. It's how you support it that  creates sophistry.
We think of an  idea, a theory. Then we  go looking for canon
support. We find a passage or two  that we  can  quote if we're
lucky. But does the character quoted know what we know?
Doubtful, in most  cases. We build a case on  the suppositions 
of characters that do not have definitive knowledge. That's a 
specious argument, sophistry.
And  it's lovely! Can't do  without it.

> Pip's premise is that humanity can be redeemed, that we're 
> capable of fundamental behavioral change, and that's what DD is 
> working towards.  She suggests that DD is willing to provoke a war 
> between good and evil that may destroy (perhaps must destroy) the WW 
> as it currently exists in the Potterverse.  
> snip>
> You don't agree. You say that it's human nature to attach value 
> judgements to individuals or groups based on their differences from 
> each other, and that will never change even if every muggle-hating, 
> pure-blood-loving person in the WW dies.  So this war would be 
> fruitless.  The best that DD could do is to acknowledge this 
> propensity towards prejudice and try to weaken and control it.  
>

Kneasy:
Yes. I don't  believe people are perfectable. It may be possible, with 
a struggle,  to  change a particular pattern of behaviour, say towards
mudbloods or muggles, but change what is in effect an innate, basic
competitive drive? No, I don't  think so.  Comparisons may be unfair
or invidious, but they are always being made. She is better than him
because, they are not nice, I don't like her - comparisons that 
become fixed and rationalised and  then generalised. Sad but true.
You  can enforce a standard of public behaviour, but you cannot
enforce thought change. How would it be possible to  convince
Umbridge that there's  nothing wrong with half-breeds or centaurs? 
No, I don't think it could be done.

Laura: 
> Am I right in reading your post as suggesting that DD has no choice 
> but to be a leader of the magical world?   If in fact power resides 
> in him and everyone knows it, he will wield it no matter what he does 
> or where he is, just because others will follow him,
>snip>

Kneasy:
To the anti-Voldy camp he already is the de-facto leader. Who else 
can lead? Magical power cannot be  considered in the same way as
political power.  It's not possible to vote away DD's magical powers.
He  cannot delegate them. No-one can inherit  them. They're his alone.
It's the old joke of where does a 600 lb gorrilla sit? Wherever he likes.
He has powers, he will  have them till the end. What matters  is how  
he uses them. If you're  in a magical war, impressive magical powers
will probably be the deciding factor. And in any post-war settlement.
Dumbledore is stuck with it, unless he dies. A  distinct possibility and
an acceptable way out of the impasse.