TBAY: Re Spying Game Philosophy

Sun Sep 21 18:37:11 UTC 2003

No: HPFGUIDX 81245

(This post refers to Pip!Squeak's post 81010)

TBAY portions in ### for those who like to skip

# # # # #
Pippin stared bewilderedly at the juicy hamburger lying on the 
plate in front of her.  She seemed to be in the Safe House, where 
there was quite a party going on. Oddly, she couldn't remember 
how she 'd got there and she had no idea what she'd been 
doing. The hamburger was very good, though. Taking another 
bite, Pippin listened as  Pip!squeak, whose screen name was 
so confusingly similar to her own,  paused in the middle of a  
long speech to make a bracketed remark. 

"[ See OOP Chapter 27- Dumbledore's direct lie is on page 545 
]" 

At that point, some of the hamburger must have gone down the 
wrong way, because Pippin was suddenly seized by a violent 
coughing fit.

"May I offer you a cough drop?" Pip!Squeak asked, looking rather 
annoyed.

Pippin could not reply. She was finding it very hard, as well as 
somewhat painful, to hold back. When you are a vampire, it is not 
such a good idea to bite your lips.

"Excuse me, did I say something funny?" Pip!Squeak demanded. 

"Well--" said Pippin, getting a hold of herself at last. "It's just
that   the MDDT has completely overlooked the c-" 

Pippin spluttered again. "S-sorry," she went on,  "completely 
overlooked the canon for Agent!Sirius manipulating events in 
Gryffindor Tower!"

Grey, Melody and Pip! all goggled. They could not have been 
more surprised if Pippin had torn the  LIE* (Lupin Is EverSoEvil) 
badge from her cape and announced that she was henceforth 
toeing the PARTY LINE. (Principled Altruistic Righteous Teacher 
Yummy Lupin Is Not Evil )

"What do you mean?" they all asked at once. 

"I mean," said Pippin, "that everything that Dumbledore told 
Fudge on page 545 is either true or can be canon supported.  
Look, I'll show you.

# # # # # #
 Here's a list of everything that Dumbledore 
says on page 545 (Raincoast). And he means every word
 My comments are in brackets.

"Well the game is up."
[True]

 "Would you like a written confession from me, Cornelius, or will 
a statement before these witnesses suffice?"  
[A question. A very important one. From now on, Dumbledore is 
not engaged in casual conversation but regards himself as 
giving a statement. Fudge is now examining a hostile witness, 
and should be on his guard.  ]

"Dumbledore's army, Cornelius. Not Potter's Army. 
*Dumbledore's Army*." 

[True. That's exactly  what the parchment says.]

Fudge asks, "You?"

"That's right." 
[True. He is the Dumbledore referred to on the parchment]

Fudge asks, "You organised this?"

Dumbledore says, "I did."  

[Canon supported. The idea of forming a group to train students 
in magical combat is planted in Hermione's brain by Agent!Sirius  
on page 272.  On pages 329-331 we learn that the students 
were tailed to the Hogs Head and their conversations monitored 
by Agent!Mundungus who reported to Agent!Sirius and 
Agent!Molly.  Agent!Sirius greenlights the mission  (despite 
Agent!Molly's dissenting vote).  Agent!Sirius  says he will "think 
on" a safer place to meet.  Agent!Dobby (Dumbledore's 
employee) shows up on page 342 and recommends the Room 
of Requirement. A room which, as Harry says on 344, 
Dumbledore knows about and previously mentioned to Harry.  
Hermione drops *all* her reservations about a plan 
recommended by Sirius and Dobby once she learns this.  Harry  
may think that Dumbledore is lying, but I doubt Hermione would 
agree. <g>]

Fudge asks "You recruited these students for -- for your army?"

"Tonight was supposed to be the first meeting," said 
Dumbledore nodding. "Merely to see whether they would be 
interested in joining me."

[ Unlike Marietta, Dumbledore has not been asked to testify in 
sign language, so while the nod is canon it may not be 
considered as part of his statement. We must instruct the jury to 
ignore it. Maybe the old man was just tired <g>. Dumbledore 
does not agree that he recruited the students for his army. 
Instead he goes off on a tangent.

What Dumbledore does say is canon supported. Remember 
that there are *two* alleged illegal organizations being 
discussed, both of which, confusingly, are called "Dumbledore's 
Army."  One, which Umbridge discovered through Marietta, is the 
study group "whose aim was to learn curses and spells which 
the Ministry has decided are inappropriate for school age. " Let's 
call that DA1, which has been meeting in the RoR for months. 
This is the group that Dolores set out to catch.

The DA2, the seditious group which Fudge suspects of working 
against  *him*, exists mostly in Fudge's imagination, (and as 
The Order of the Phoenix, but that is not a student group.) 
Dumbledore does confess that there was "supposed" to be a 
meeting of the DA2. And this, I submit, is true.

DA1 had one legal meeting and subsequently met many times 
in violation of educational decree number twentyfour, but at no   
meeting until that night did Dumbledore or his agents attempt to 
recruit it into a conspiracy against Fudge. 

But that night was different.

*Somebody* told Dobby that the House Elves must not warn the 
students that they were about to be caught (p. 535). This is very 
strange. House Elves do not customarily interfere in Hogwarts 
discipline.  Even Dobby does not. Dobby attacked  his former 
master to keep Harry from harm, and yet he did nothing to protect 
Harry from Umbridge. Why would  anyone think it necessary to 
order the House Elves not to intervene? 

 But Agent!Dobby, who is an employee and not a slave bound by 
House Elf magic, disobeys *somebody's* orders, as 
Dumbledore knows he can.   If those orders were given by 
Dumbledore or at his instigation,   then Dumbledore's statement 
is true. There was indeed supposed to be a first meeting 
between one of his agents and the DA1, merely to see if they 
would be interested in joining him...in Dumbledore's office, that 
is,  where they would probably have been expelled. <g> ]

 "I see now that it was a mistake to invite Miss Edgecombe, of 
course."

 [True. Once again, Dumbledore uses the  passive  construction 
to avoid alleging agency.]

Fudge yells, "Then you have been plotting against me!"

"That's right" 
[ Canon supported, see above. Nor does this make a liar out of 
Dumbledore in GoF. He gives Cornelius fair warning that they 
will not be on the same side if Fudge does not work against 
Voldemort. ]

Note:  Spymaster!Dumbledore's life would be so much *easier* 
if he had lied.Once he was sure that Voldemort knew about the 
mindlink, he could have told Harry, "Beware of the Department of 
Mysteries.   There's a prophecy there that Voldemort needs-- to 
find out how to destroy you." Dumbledore wouldn't have been 
revealing any information that Voldemort didn't think he already 
had, and Harry would have been warned. 

# # # # # #

Pippin  piled a few more hamburgers onto her plate and nibbled 
absently on them as Pip!Squeak had a lot more to say. The plate 
was empty of all but the discarded buns when Pip!squeak finally 
finished, with a flourish and a quote from Robert Frost.

"Oh Pip!," Pippin chuckled. "You've done it again. That's not 
Dumbledore you're talking about. It's Ever So Evil Lupin! All this 
time I've been trying to figure out  a  better motivation for him,
and  you've finally come up with something that makes sense.

# # # # # #

In regard to Dumbledore's supposed philosophy I find it very 
easy to believe that somebody might resort to abetting terrorism 
in order to manufacture consent for their political agenda.  

And maybe someone thinks that when system comes down,  
there'll be a fire-breathing chicken in every pot, there'll be no 
need to hate and fear dark creatures any more, and we'll all live 
happily ever after. <g> 

Right.  I just have a hard time imagining Dumbledore, whose 
mistakes are the mistakes of an old man, buying that particular 
load of dubious cauldrons.  Perhaps Lupin believed it once. He 
was young, after all. The naive and the passionate are easy prey. 
Those who seek their heart's desire seldom see things as they 
are.

Young Lupin  did not care if innocent people were scared half to 
death by a werewolf, as long as he and his friends were safe.  
Well, he did care, sort of. But not enough.

 And does older Lupin  care if numbers of faceless and 
nameless people and creatures were slaughtered, as long as in 
the here and now his friends are safe, and in the future there will 
be a brighter day? Or maybe he thinks that  you can sup with the 
devil that's Voldemort, as long as  you bring a long spoon.

 But no spoon is long enough. Peter took James. Now Sirius is 
gone. Harry is threatened. Lupin may have his doubts now. But 
it's far, far too late. And as for the future he dreamed of...

"There are dangers involved of which you can have no idea, any 
of you," Lupin says. What does he know that even Sirius does 
not? 

Is the glowing silvery orb that Lupin fears the prophecy? Or is it 
another prophecy? Maybe JKR was thinking of  this one:

"You who wish for the day of the Lord, why should you want the 
day of the Lord? It shall be darkness, not light! As if a man 
should run from a lion and be attacked by a bear. Or if he got 
indoors, should lean his hand on the wall and be bitten by a 
snake! Surely the day of the Lord shall be not light, but darkness, 
blackest night without a glimmer. " -- Amos 5:18-20

"And none will come after" ?

IMO,  Dumbledore is wise enough or humble enough to know  
he can't get purge the WW of evil by some cataclysmic act.   Even 
if racism could be abolished, won't  other hatreds and 
grievances be born of the fire?  The new system will surely 
contain flaws of its own.  And sooner or later, Voldemort, or 
someone like him , will discover those flaws and exploit them.   
There'll always have to be someone  ready to fight evil. Constant, 
never-ending vigilance!  But it's hardly bleak. Nobody has to fight 
forever. Ghosts aside, sooner or later everyone goes to the next 
great adventure, after all.  

So what *is* Dumbledore trying to do? He and Harry didn't 
entirely destroy the fountain.  Look at what happens to the 
figures.  The hegemonic witch and wizard --shattered. The 
Centaur -- disarmed, yet it takes a protective role. The goblin and 
the house elf--  hand in hand with the chastened and humbled 
leadership of the MOM.

 Dumbledore doesn't think the Ministry's dream of magical 
brotherhood is worthless... he'd just like to see  more 
brotherhood and less dreaming, thank you very much.

The wizarding world will never be perfect. The greedy will still be 
deceived by their desires, whether they be Wizards who long for 
power or Elves who long for subservience. Slytherins will be 
Slytherins and  Hufflepuffs will  be undervalued. Blood will still be 
thicker than water. People will always be more ready to help their 
friends and kindred than they are to help strangers. But 
competing interests can work together peacefully, as the 
founders once did. For a while, there will be peace. And good 
men, with a sigh of relief, may do nothing. **

# # # # # #

 Pippin fed her uneaten buns to the rabbit and threaded her way 
through the crowd to the kitchen of the Safe House, where 
everyone was gathered to admire the shiny new MAGIC 
DISHWASHER. 

Greywolf was proudly wiping non existent fingermarks off the 
immaculate stainless steel surface bristling with all manner of 
can(n)on. 

"Scuse me," said Pippin politely. displaying her juicestained 
dish.  "Where should I put this?" 

# # # # # #

Pippin

*See the Ever-So-Evil Lupin post

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39362

 for how he might have done it. But disregard everything I said 
about why. <g> Oh, and the bit about not knowing Pettigrew was 
alive has been revised. Evil!Lupin found out that Peter was alive 
when the picture appeared in the Prophet, same as Sirius. But 
Lupin thought Pettigrew had died at Sirius's hands when 
Scabbers was thought to have been eaten.

** Anybody who would like to quote the  philosopher Edmund 
Burke in refutation of this is advised to consult this web page
http://www.tartarus.org/~martin/essays/burkequote.html
where they will find the quote in its proper form <veg>