BADD ANGST TBAY, Part II

[boyd_smythe]

No: HPFGUIDX 81630

Ahoy there from the good ship BADD ANGST, silmariel! If I may respond 
to portions of your response to Jen (and please skip to the last 
paragraph if you'd like my take on ancient magic and BADD ANGST):

> silmariel wrote (speaking of Dumbledore):
> I can't agree respecting free will makes him so limited. He should  
also respect his own free will, and the free will of those unnamed  
creatures.  While I think there is an option for a peaceful ending, 
after all,  Jo is the writer so it's up to her, I also see an 
escenario that  can be developed into an open war. Just there, in the 
second  prophecy, I still have to see The Dark Lord raising more 
powerfull  and blablabla... <

Does respecting others' free will mean that DD must liberate them? I 
argue no. Do the house elves even want to be liberated? Not currently, 
and it should be their choice, yes? I think the right answer is that 
every species must choose for itself, and all Dumbledore should do is 
accept their choice.

As for the big war to come, Jen hasn't said there won't be one. I 
happen to think we will see a big battle, and I can't wait!
 

> silmariel wrote:
> Voldie is still pretty lame compared to:
> Every week, news comes of more deaths, more disappearances, more 
torturing...the Ministry of Magic is in disarray, they don't know what 
to do, they're trying to keep everything hidden from the Muggles, but 
meanwhile, Muggles are dying, too. (Sirius, GOF, > chap. 27, pps. 
526-527)
> and to :
> "....you weren't in the Order then, you don't understand, last time 
we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were 
picking us off one by one." (Lupin, OOTP, chap. 9, > p.177) <

Agree. That's why Books 6 and 7 will have some bigger evil events 
happening, IMO.


> silmariel wrote:
> I concede defeating LV is a point, but he is not the problem.  
Killing him wouldn't solve a thing if the structure that has raised  
him is available for the next killer to raise . <

I continue to wait for canon that there has been a long line of evil 
wizards or Dark Lords who tried to take over the WW. We only know that 
Dumbledore killed some evil wizard named Grindelwald. That's it. And 
Binns has not said anything about any other Dark Lords. So while the 
WW may have its prejudices, it is not clear that those will continue 
to spawn more Dark Lords. If you disagree, show me the canon!


>> Jen originally wrote:
>> Dumbledore's Plan :
>> Dumbledore employs a three-part plan in the fight against Lord 
Voldemort, intending to first impede LV's progress and bring him out 
in the open (achieved in OOTP) and ultimately, to defeat him once and 
for all .
>> 1. Creating a strong and unified counterforce <<

> then silmariel responded:
> Not trying to be critic here, but what's the point. Recruiting  
allies is a very basic strategy in a war, isn't it? I mean, it  would 
be suicidal not to do it, and Dumbie has survived wars  before, I'm 
sure the 'let's unite' parafernalia was for granted.  After all,  
"Time is short, and unless the few of us who know the truth stand 
united, there is no hope for any of us." (Dumbledore, GOF, chap. 36, 
p. 712) ... is perfectly ok, what doesn't make sense is a "Time is 
short, so  the few of us who know the truth, let's divide and/or kill 
each  other" Is not Voldemort doing the same?  <

While it may be obvious that you build an army for a war, I'm not sure 
everyone agrees that a genuine war is coming. But I think so, Jen 
thinks so, and you think so, so great! So let's assume DD and LV are 
building armies of a sort. Won't he need more against an opponent who 
can't die? That's where #2 comes from
.


>> Jen originally wrote:
>> 2. Respect for and use of the Deeper Mysteries of Magic-- > There 
is a mysterious "ancient magic" that Dumbledore ascribes to more fully 
than to the "Laws of Man" (in this case, the MOM) .
>> These deep mysteries appear to actualize in the form of binding 
connections between people or between people and magical objects. <<

> then silmariel responded:
> Here is where I call it having a cool mind and common sense.  
Dumbledore uses the weapons he has, and follows the rules he knows.  I 
mean, he knows they exist, so respecting here for me means not to  be 
so dumb as to overlook something he takes as a fact. Borrowing  Terry 
Pratchett an example: witches know gods exist in Discworld,  but 
believing in them would be like believing in the postman. <

Again, it may be obvious to you, but we're simply assuming not 
everyone sees how Dumbledore is using his better understanding of the 
ancient magics as a weapon to defeat LV.


>> Jen originally wrote:
>> The Fidelius Charm is "An immensely complex spell
..involving the 
magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul.  The 
information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret Keeper
." 
(Prof. Flitwick, POA, chap. 10, p. 205) <<

> then silmariel responded:
>  See, I just thought it was a complex spell, but given each wizard  
should have a soul that was not the difficult part. Maybe I'm  biased 
by the, 'hey Wormtail, wannabe Secret Keeper?' last-moment  change . <

Two thoughts. One: ancient does not have to equal complex. Do we 
really think Harry's Mom had time to perform a complex spell she'd 
never done before LV killed her? Probably not; her love and 
self-sacrifice seem to have generated that magic. Similarly, we don't 
know whether the creation of a Secret Keeper is a long, complex spell 
or as simple as an oath by the secret-keeper not to reveal the secret. 
Two: all we know is that the change of secret-keepers happened after 
DD and Lupin were informed that Sirius would be the secret-keeper. 
There could have been plenty of time for a big, long spell if Secret 
Keeping requires that.


>> Jen originally wrote:
>> "Once a champion has been selected by the Goblet of Fire, he or she 
is obliged to see the tournament through to the end. The placing of 
your name in the goblet constitutes a binding, magical contract." 
(Dumbledore, GOF, chap. 16, p. 256) <<

> then silmariel responded:
Apart that I suposse the original maker of the goblet intended to  
assasinate someone with it I hope this does not count as ancient  
magic, because is a funny thing you can be arbitrarily be forced to  
adhere to a magical, binding contract.  Magical contracts are as fun 
as contracts with demons, but the  victim should at least do 
something. If not, we can just call it a  very good way of forcing 
someone to suicide. I don't know why  Voldie should despise it. No. 
Wait. A DE actually uses it. <

Yes, Harry didn't put his name in the goblet himself, so he would 
apparently not have been bound by that magic. But DD says others would 
be-and that is the ancient magic Jen is talking about.

Because ancient magic appears to be all about choices. Choose to put 
your name in the Goblet, and you must serve if chosen. Choose to give 
your life protecting someone, and your blood will protect them 
forever. Choose to entrust your secret to someone and only they will 
be able to uncover it. The servant must choose to give his flesh to 
return the master to life. Choose not to pass to the afterlife and you 
will remain a ghost. Choices. Boundaries. It all fits, yes?

-Remnant