Peter, Sirius and Secret Keeping (was: Re: Dumbledore's Spies)

[narie]

No: HPFGUIDX 81692

narie (me):
> > The only problem with this theory is that then the spy would have 
> > known who the secret keeper was, as the secret can only be revealed 
> > by that specific person. If that was the case, you would have hoped 
> > *someone* would have informed Dumbledore or the Ministry of the fact 
> > that Pettigrew was the Potter's secret keeper, and not Black.
> > 
> > Also, a question that has been nagging me - would the Fidelius charm 
> > still work once the Potters had died, or does their death mean the 
> > end of the charm? 
> > 
> > I can't really think of any other way Hagrid and Sirius would have 
> > been able to find them if the secret was still, well, secret. For 
> > that matter, if the secret was still secret, and from my 
> > understanding of the spell (which is rather sketchy, granted), how 
> > did anyone manage to find the bodies of Lily and James to confirm 
> > their deaths?

Jake: 
> Narie,
> Nice post.  I guess a central question is, when Sirius and Wormtail 
> switched places, did they have to retell everyone (i.e., DD and the 
> alleged spy network)the secret?  Personally, I don't think so.  
> Sirius could have told DD and all the spies where the Potters were 
> before switching places with Wormtail.  In fact, this seems logical, 
> because DD and co all seem to know that Sirius is the secret keeper 
> (which would make sense if he told them the secret).  It would also 
> explain why Sirius gets worried (I've been telling all these people, 
> VD may find out that I am the secret keeper and come after me) and 
> passes secret keeping duties to Wormtail.  
>
> Your question about how death impacts the charm is a good one.  I am 
> not sure if cannon provides any answers to it.  I guess if DD dies 
> and Grimauld Place pops back on the map we would know, but apart from 
> that I don't think we can know either way.  We do have reason to 
> believe that magic can last after death, however, based on Lily's 
> protection of Harry. 



now me again:
Hm... interesting way of looking at it, certainly. I don't have my 
English canon with me, but my understanding of the scene has always 
been that Sirius was never the secret keeper, but switched to Peter 
at the last possible moment before the charm was preformed. Indeed, 
my understanding is that this was done because Sirius was the 
obvious choice, hence V. would go after him, and leave Peter alone, 
meaning that the secret would never be revealed, because no one 
would ever think of Peter as the SK. 

At the same time, from a logistical point of view, it makes very 
little sense to have a SK who goes babbling the secret to people, 
especially if there is a spy in your midst and you're not quite sure 
who it is.

PoA, ch 19, pg 304, Spanish edition (translated on the fly. I'd much 
appreciate it if someone could provide me with the correct 
quote) "`The truth is, Harry, that I as good as killed them' [Black] 
growled. `I convinced Lily and James to use Peter at the last 
minute. I convinced them to use Peter as their secret keeper instead 
of me. I'm to blame, I know.'"

Later on: "[Sirius said] `I thought it was the perfect idea. A trap. 
Voldemort would go after me, he'd never think that the Potters would 
use someone weak and mediocre like you.'" PoA, ch 19, pg 308, 
Spanish edition. 

Clearly, those aware of the fact that the Potters were performing 
the Fidelius charm were under the impression that Sirius would be 
their SK (see Dumbledore's statement to H&H in the infirmary: "I 
personally testified at the Ministry that Sirius was the Potter's 
secret keeper." PoA, ch 21, pg 326, Spanish edition), but the way 
the text is written seems to hint that he never was – so he never 
could have told anyone where the Potters were. 

Now, as far as the charm itself is concerned, if Sirius had been the 
SK and told someone where the Potters were, and then Peter had 
become SK, would those who had been told by Sirius still know where 
to find the Potters? 

This goes back to my other question – how does death affect the 
Fidelius charm? To me, the whole `concealment inside a living soul' 
bit that makes up the charm suggests that it will be secret until 
the soul inside which the secret is concealed is no longer living... 
I'm wondering if once Lily and James were dead their whereabouts 
were no longer important, and thus the charm no longer held, but by 
that logic, and assuming that Harry was protected by the charm, how 
did Hagrid find him? He was, after all, rather alive.

<silly speculation. all long posts need some of this.>
As for finding the Potters so quickly, could Dumbledore have had a 
list or something along those lines of possible hideouts for them, 
and placed, erm, surveillance teams at those locations? Technically 
he never would have known which one the correct hiding spot was, 
unless something went wrong with the charm. But it seems a waste of 
manpower to have, say, ten wizards at different places all over the 
country waiting to see if the Dark Lord shows up to annihilate the 
Potters... And they would have only known it was the right place 
when they either a) heard Voldemort cackle evilly or, b) saw the 
dead bodies of James and Lily.

In any case, it seems rather far fetched and pointless, but I can't 
think of any better excuses. Not at this time of night, anyhow.
</silly>

And now, to bed, to bed!

Cheers,
narie – who'll be on a plane tomorrow afternoon and won't manage too 
many replies before Sunday afternoon, when her computer is all set 
up...